%■ ''■>■ .-^ti.^^ W ' «1^^^: >.ffl|^: '--.:'^ .fi^' ■i»- ■ ^ ./? '%. '*Ka>,'t ^ ^■•..*: V. '^rV JL-J^«*»^*'' ,-^-0> , **■*. ^k.*'^-^-' IC ■»1» ^-^ -■*. V IV / 'ril. .^M .rt: -*?'■' !S!^^«L,Hftfe ^ I - j^^s. .ft I r I u *•'•''' 7L%^^'^ "^"^-S^ :,^-^-'^-^ ^^- ^^ ^^ \ ^ F I K S T RE P O R T FROM SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT; WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed, 9 Febniar^f 1 838. ,. ; i •* >• • :*^''; ;- : 136. [ ii ] Luna, 21* die Novembris, 1837. Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the Administration of the Rehef of the Poor, mider the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act. « Ordered, That the Committee consist of Twenty-one Members : Lord John Russell. Mr. Ward. Mr. Fazakerley. Lord Viscount Howick. Mr. Richard Walker. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Poulett Scrope. Mr. Villiers. Mr. Baines. Mr. Miles (Somerset). Mr. Boiling. Mr. Law Hodges. Mr. Lister. Mr. Chichester. Sir Thomas Fremantle. Mr. Slaney. Mr. Barneby. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Liddell. Mr. John Fielden. Mr. Estcourt (Devizes). Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers and Records. Ordered, That Five be the Quorum of the Committee. Jovis, 8° die Februarii, 1 838. Ordered, That power be given to the Committee to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House. THE REPORT p. iii PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE p. ir MINUTES OF EVIDENCE p. 1 WITNESSES. Edwin C'/iadicict,' Esc[: '■'-•'••'■•"%■•' I • ,. ". ",;•.■ . p. 1 Edward (jahch, '^Hi.' '. • •"-■ 'r ', "'-. J ' : i-.r'i / '•: -"*. f : -• . - p. 1 y^ CO en cc CD a [ iii ] REPORT THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the Administration of the Relief of the Poor under the Orders and Regulations issued by '^ the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law f Amendment Act ; and who were empowered to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House : — HAVE examined several Witnesses, whose Evidence they have agreed to report to The House. 9 February 1838. PROCEEDINGS 270864 [ iv ] PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE. Mr. Estcourt. Mr. Chichester. Mr. Baines. Mr. Slaney. Mr. P. Scrope. Lunce, 4° die Dccembris, 1837. Members present : Mr. John Fielden. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Barneby. Mr. Boiling. Mr. Fazakerley. Mr. R. Walker. Mr. VVakley. Lord Viscount Howick. Mr. Liddell. It was moved by Lord Viscount Howick, — " That Mr. Fazakerley be called to the Chair." And unanimously agreed to. Mr. Baines. Mr. Barneby. Mr. Chichester. Mr. Boiling. Mr. Estcourt. Mr. Freshfield. Jovis, 7° die Dccembris, 1837 Present : Mr. Fazakerley in the Chair. i Mr. John Fielden. Mr. Hodges. Mr. Liddell. Mr. Miles. Lord John Russell. Mr. P. Scrope. Mr. Slaney. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Villiers. Mr. R. Walker. The Committee deliberated upon the course of their future Proceedings, and as to the orderinsr of certain Returns. Mr. Baines. Mr. Barneby. Mr. Boiling. Mr. Chichester. Veneris, 8° die Decembris, 183; Present : Mr. Fazakerley in the Chair. Mr. Estcourt. Mr. Fielden. Mr. Freshfield. Lord Viscount Howick. Mr. Miles. Mr. Villiers. Mr. Walker. 2 A The Committee deliberated upon the calling for Returns ; and the following Returns were ordered to be laid before the Committee : — 1.— A Return of the Number and Names and Residences, and Number of Children of Migrants, wbo have removed into tbe Manufacturing Districts, under the sanction of the Poor Law Commissioners, and the Parishes from which the Migrants were removed, and tlieir Incomes previous to removal, together with their present Incomes, as far as they can be ascertained. Return of the Number and Names and Residences, and Number of Children of Persons receiving Relief "ftcha^^ml] Do you consider that this cessation of the rule prohibiting relief, except in the workhouse, is likely to arise in all populous and manufac- urin; districts occasionally?-! conceive that in all manufacturing districts want of em'ployment and pressure arising from a want of employment may be expected to oSr decidedly, Ind that in alf such cases the powers of the Commissioners are flexible, and must be called into action to meet such emergencies. 6(, Will it not happen in those communities that the number of persons thrown out of employment by any depression of commerce is so great that it would be impossible to order them all into the workhouse ?— Certainly. ,, , . ,1 „ 67 In those circumstances you would apply some other test than that ot the workhouse?-! conceive that the workhouse is the best test, and the most simple that can be applied ; in a manufacturing district emergencies may arise in which the workhouse test cannot be applied, and there you will apply carrying out the principle of the Poor Law Amendment Act, the next best test that can be applied, thatbeinglabour by task-work. .1 *i * 1 • u 68. Is the amount of remuneration to such persons lower than that winch would be obtained by independent labourers ?— Decidedly. 6q Do vou think that there is any other security than a strict adherence to those conditions, against encouraging a want of industry ?— Certainly no other ^ T^Tord John Russell.] How far have the numbers been reduced of those who have been employed in out-door labour in Nottingham ?-! am not aware whether I stated the greatest number 21? ; they are reduced to 102 at this moment. 71. Mr. /raWey.] Heads of families?— Yes. 72 Lord John Russell.-] Should you suppose, that with a more prosperous state of trade, that number would be much further reduced ?- Entirely taken off our hands • if it had not been for this frost we should not have had men employed now. 7CJ Therefore you would not expect that the employment in this temponiry manner, on the occasion of a crisis, would lead to a permanent burthen ol able- bodied labourers on the poor-rate ?-Certainly not, and as a proof of tliat every stocking-maker who was employed in that way has already gone oft, and those who are now employed are solely the men that are thrown out of employ- ment bv the frost, and perhaps a few lace-makers, the lacc-trade being still bad. 74 Mr Freshfidd.] !s the relief afforded in task-work so low, that the motive remains of finding employment in any other direction ?-Decidedly so; if it were not so, I conceive that you would only give a premium to idleness and to impro- vidence. , , . , ,, , 7^ Can vou inform the Committee about the rate which you allow a man to earn who has a wife and six children unable to work ?-! think in Nottingham they would allow him to earn about 10s. or 10 s. 6 d. at the present time. 76. Chairman.] What are the earnings generally, m the usual average state ot trade of the labourers, in the different species of manufacture which exist at Nottingham, as far as you can state ?-The different species of manufacture are so numerous, that I would rather not trust to my memory, because I can refer to a publication, which I believe is as perfect as anything that can be obtained in that respect ; I can either furnish the Committee with a copy of it, or make an extract from it. , . , f >^i ^-..1 •. • 77 To what do you refer ?-Felkin's Remarks is the name of the title ; it is a work which has been lately published with reference to the providence of the lower '78 Does that work refer particularly to Nottingham ?— It does ; Mr. Felkin is a 136. B 3 guardian 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Guhon, Esq. guardian of the Nottingham Union, and it has entire reference to the manufacture and the state of wages in Nottingham ; nothing is more variable than the amount of 7 Ffcbmary 1838. wages earned in different trades in Nottingham. 79. It is all payment by the piece, is it not? — Yes. 80. In times of considerable difficulty, and when j^ou find it necessary to offer to a number of persons the workhouse, have you ever, in those manufacturing towns, either in Nottingham or in any other town with which you are conversant, known that it has been necessary for the poor people upon going into the workhouses to sell their furniture, and break up their whole establishments, upon doing so? — I have never known such an instance to exist ; I do not believe that they do exist. 81. What do the poor do with their furniture when they are ordered into the workhouse ? — If they come into the workhouse they get some of their friends to ■take care of their goods; their house is never practically broken up, they have a house to go back to; if they have not the same lodging, they have their furniture, and they get another lodging. 82. Have you not known them in any cases break up their furniture ? — Never. 83. Have you never insisted upon their selling their furniture, as a proof of des- titution r — Never; so far from it, if I were present at a board of guardians which did that, or it came to my knowledge that any board of guardians in my district did insist upon it, I should feel it my duty to go at once to that board, and endeavour to prevent such a system. 84. iTlr. Hodges.] Then the Committee are to understand you, if that is the opinion of the Commissioners in the working of this law, that it is so far an improvement in the new over the old law, because under the old law we all know that the poor were compelled in many instances to sell their furniture before they could be entitled to relief ? — I conceive in that respect this is a decided improve- ment upon the old law. 85. And you state to this Committee that such is the principle upon which the new law is to be administered, as far as relief goes ? — Such is the practice. 8fi. Lord John Russell.] Are you aware of any practice opposed to that in any other district ? — No. 87. Mr. Babies.] Would not a person going into the workhouse under the old law be precisely in the same situation as a person going into the workhouse under the new law ; is there any distinction between the two ^ — No person is entitled to relief until he is perfectly destitute ; but, practically speaking, you never force a person to become so destitute as to oblige him to sell his furniture before he can come into the workhouse. 88. Is not that equally applicable to both cases ; is there any thing that makes a difference in the practice under the new law in that respect, and under the other? — Yes, there is, if you will allow me to say so. 89. Chairman.] Will you give any explanation that occurs to you? — I think under the old law, if a man applied to an overseer for relief, that overseer, know- ing that a portion of the relief which he afforded was to come out of his pocket, was an interested person, and he might say to the man, " No, the law does not oblige me to give you relief till you sell your furniture, and I refuse all relief;" but with a board of guardians composed of 50 individuals from different parishes, 49 are perfectly disinterested in every case that comes before them with regard to the amount of relief that shall be given; it is only the guardian of the parish from which the application comes, whose pocket is affected, and therefore 1 think that the new law is more lenient to the poor man than the old law. 90. Mr. IValilcy] Do you know an instance in which an overseer has made that statement to a pauper who has applied for relief, that the law did not oblige him to give relief until the man had sold his furniture? — Many instances have come under my knowledge of relief being refused by overseers, both from personal ill-will to paupers, and from interested motives ; nothing could be more common under the old law than that. 91. Can you name any places in which those practices ocqurred, and the parties? — No, certainly not. 92. Ml-. Babies.] Do I understand that you mean, by interested motives, that the overseer, being a parishioner, is interested, inasmuch as he is a contributor towards the rates ? — I do. 93. But with reference to the principle, does not your observation apply to the guardians of an Union, because, if the practice to which you have referred pre- vailed ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 7 vailed in one part of the Union, it would probably prevail tliroughout the whole -E. Guhon, Esq. Union; and if it prevailed throiiohout the whole Union, all the guardians, being rate-payers, would be as much interested parties as the overseer under the old ' February 1838. law? — That is, if the board of guardians come to the resolution to oblige all parties to sell their furniture before they come into the workhouse, they would all be interested parties in that case decidedly, but that must be done by a general resolution ; and if a general resolution of that kind were adopted, I think that the Commissioners, if I understand the feelings of the Commissioners, certainly as an Assistant-commissioner, now, without any further instructions, if such a resolution came to my knowledge, 1 should feel it to be my duty to go to that board of guar- dians, and to try to get them to alter that general resolution. 94. ChainnanI] Do not you think alsu, that in the constitution of the board of guardians, considering the education, and the qualification and the character of the guardians, the poor have a security against any harsh and indiscreet determination of that nature, which they had not formerly when their claim was to be decided by the overseer? — Most decidedly so; I was going on to explain, if a general resolution of that kind was passed, 1 should at once interfere ; and if it does not pass, then, as regards any individual case, my further answer applies, that they are disinterested judges, and therefore that it is not likely to apply individually. 95. Mr. Walkcr.~\ Have you known any instances in your experience at Nottingham, of any of the artisans who have been taken into the workhouse, or have been employed by the guardians of the poor, having sold the utensils of their trader —Never. 96. Those have been retained, probably, for future operations? — Yes; I have never known an instance of their disposing of any thing that was useful to them in their labour. 97. Chairman.'] Is it your belief that the parties now in the workhouse, or those who have been hitherto in the workhouse, upon being able to find employ- ment, and leaving the workhouse, will return to the possession of their furniture and common utensils ? — Yes. 98. Mr. Bahies.^ Is there any inquiry, under the present union system, when a person comes into the workhouse, whether he has or has not disposed of his furniture, and of the utensils by which he obtains his livelihood ? — Certainly not. 99. Then of course your answer applies to your own experience, which, as far as regards the individual cases, perhaps, is not very extensive? — Yes, I conceive it is very extensive ; I attend boards of guardians, I think, on an average, five days out of the seven, or four days certainly out of the seven, and during those four days I see all the cases that are brought before the board of gviardians. 100. If the inquiry was not made at the board, can you undertake to say whether the furniture of the applicant was disposed of or not, though you might attend the board of guardians four or five days in the week out of the seven? — I understood the question before to be this, Was it a condition of the board, must they have disposed of their furniture before they are oftered the workhouse ? and I say distinctly, No. 101. Chairman.] Have you any other means of ascertaining whether those persons are obliged to dispose of their furniture than those which arise from your attendance at the meetings of the boards of guardians? — Yes, I know prac- tically that on the men going out of the workhouse they go to their houses, and resume their employment again. 102. During this commercial pressure in Nottingham, you have been constantly residing at the place ? — 1 have. 103. And in constant communication with Mr. Barnett, who is master of the workhouse, and upon whom the details of the Act principally rest? — Yes, I have never been absent from Nottingham 14 days at a time during the whole of the pressure. 104. Have you ever heard Mr. Barnett say, or have you ever heard any poor person complain of his being obliged to sell his goods in this manner? — Never. 105. Do you think it possible that such a practice should have obtained without its reaching your ears through Mr. Barnett or through the poor? — Cer- tainly not. 106. You having been constantly at Nottingham, and your attention having been much directed to the condition of the poor there?— Yes. 107. yiv. Baines.] Yon say that it is impossible that such a practice should 136. B 4 have MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E.Gulson, Esq. have obtained without its coming to your knowledge; did not Thomas Taylor, before he came into the Union workhouse, sell his furniture ; have you any docu- 7 February 1838. ments that would satisfy you whether he did or did not? — Certainly I have none, nor have I any means of ascertaining what Thomas Taylor does of himself and of his own free will, but I do know that the board of guardians are not the instru- ments to oblige that man to sell his furniture. 108. But you stated that if they disposed of their furniture you would be aware of it, and now it appears that your answer must be received with considerable qualification? — As regards an individual case, that might occur without its coming to my knowledge, but, generally speaking, I conceive that it could not. log. Chairman.] If it had been the general practice of those persons who in great numbers were thrown out of employment, and were obliged to go into the workhouse, do you think it could happen without coming to your knowledge ? — I think not. TIG. Mr. 3Iiles.] It is not made a sine qua non that they should sell their furniture? — No, certainly not. 111. Lord Hoioick.] You do not say that it may not have happened that indi- viduals, rather than apply for relief with the prospect of going into the work- house, may have pawned or sold part of their effects ? — Certainly that may have happened, so far as I know ; but the board of guardians never directly or indi- rectly make that a condition of giving relief. 112. Mr. Hodges.] Are you able to state, since those parties come in contact with the relievino- officer before their case is heard at the board, whether that - 1 1 - relieving officer may not have exercised such a pressure upon them as to induce them to sell part of their furniture ? — I conceive that such a circumstance as that, if it were acted upon at all generally by the relieving officer, must have come to my knowledge; and no such thing has come to my knowledge, nor would it be at all in the spirit of the board of guardians under whom he acts that he should do that ; and as he would have no inducement, I cannot conceive that he would so act. 113. Mr. Miles.] Did any of the stocking-makers whom you ordered into the workhouse during the pressure, complain that they were obliged to part with their implements of trade? — No. 1 14. Mr. Wakley.] Are the applications for relief made by the relieving officer, or by the poor themselves ? — By the relieving officer; but there is a board stuck up in the waiting-hall of the workhouse, to which all the poor persons come, both for their relief and to make applications to the relieving officer, stating in very large letters that they may see the board of guardians, setting forth the time of the meeting of the board of guardians, if they think fit to do so, at such and such times. 115. At any period ? — At any period, during their meeting, of course. 1 16. Have you been in the habit of seeing the poor attend themselves? — Yes, often. 117. Do you think it better for their interests that they should attend, than rely upon the statement of the relieving officer ? — I think it is perfectly right that they should be able to attend, if they think fit so to do. 1 1 8. That is not an answer to the question ; " Do you think it better for their interests that they should attend, than rely upon the statement of the relieving officer ?" — No, L do not think it is ; I do not think the relieving officers are dis- posed to be more harsh than the board of guardians. 119. Do you think that the relieving officer would take that interest in repre- senting each case which the father of the family would take ? — I do not think he takes that interest, but he states what the case is from the poor man's representa- tion ; the poor man's own representation gets before the boaird through tiie reliev- ing officer. 120. Have you not had many complaints that the relieving officer has not made correct representations of the case: — No, I have not. 121. Do the poor show any anxiety to attend themselves before the board ? — • I think quite the contrary, much less than I expected. 122. Do you not conceive that that is because when tliey make applications themselves they get but little by it? — I think it is because they think that they are fairly dealt by. 12.?. Do ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 9 123. Do you think they are satisfied ? — As much satisfied as tliat class gene- E. Gulton, Esq. rally are. 124. Mr. Miks.] At the board of guardians of the Nottingham Union, is the 7 Tebniary 1838. complaint of any pauper heard previously to his having made application to the relieving officer? — No. 12.J. He first of all must go to the relieving officer, and having gone to the relieving officer, the board will enter upon his case or not, according to the option of the board ? — The application having been made to the relieving officer, the relieving officer is bound to report that case ; the board take it and consider it, and make a decision upon it ; and if after that the pauper is dissatisfied, and likes to come before the board, he fully knows that he has the opportunity of so doing, and it rests on his own will. 126. In no case will the board hear any complaint of the pauper without his previous application to the relieving officer ? — Certainly not. 127. Mr. fraliky.] Does the relieving officer accompany his statement by any advice or remark, or recommendation ? — Yes. 128. Is that generally adopted by the guardians ? — I should say generally it is, but not at all necessai'ily or universally. 1 29. But you think it is generally adopted ? — Yes, I think generally after application ; but the guardian of the parish is appealed to, who generally knows the man, and before that recommendation is acceded to, or the contrary, the board of guardians try to dive into the case and get all further particulars that they can, and if they think that the relieving officer has made a fair recommendation, and one that meets the necessity of the case and equity towards all parties, then of course they adopt it. The relieving officers are competent men to make that recommendation, and it is frequently adopted. 130. Mr. BainesJ] You stated that it happened generally, that when persons went into the workhouse, having furniture, they left the furniture in their houses, or they gave it into the care of some of their friends ; when they leave it in their houses, is there any provision made for the rent being paid, because their leaving it in their houses requires that they should continue the possession of those houses, and the landlord necessarily will require his rent; is there any allowance made by the Union for the payment of that rent so long as the furniture remains in the house and for the possession, to return into possession of it after he comes out ? — Certainly not, for the best of all reasons, that if the board of guardians allowed rents in that way, you would have no house unoccupied, or rooms either. 131. But if the person reraains in possession of the house, and there is no pro- vision for paying the rent of the house, it is not very likely that the landlord will allow the furniture of a man so totally destitute to remain in his house .^ — 1 con- ceive that the board of guardians have nothino; whatever to do between the owner and the occupier of property of any description ; that the board of guardians would be entirely stepping out of their course to interfere between landlord and tenant. 132. Chairman?!^ Do you conceive in that case the poor man would make arrangements with some other person to take charge of his furniture ? — Yes. 133. Do you know that landlords of those small tenements are frequently in the habit of allowing the use of some room in which the goods of the poor may be put? — Decidedly they do ; and in a time of pressure like this, when so many of the poor are giving up their lodgings or houses, some coming into the workhouse, and some beating out further for employment, the landlords' houses are very empty ; tenants are very scarce; and if a man's furniture is removed out, it would be ten to one that his house would be vacant, as there is no demand. 134. Lord Hfm'ic/i.j And the landlord therefore allows the furniture to remain, in expectation that, if trade revives, the former occupant will again come to his house? — That, practically, is the course. 135. Mr. p. StTope.l Do not all the parties concerned contemplate that the party will occupy the workhouse for a short time, and act upon that supposition? — Precisely, and that the workhouse is a temporary abode, and as soon as trade revives, they will return back again to their emplovmcnt and their houses. 136. Both the poor man, and the guardians, and the landlord of the house he occupied, act upon that understanding ? — Yes. 137. Can you inform the Committee the longest period during which any able- bodied labourer remained in the workhouse of Nottingham in thepastyear? — No, I cannot without reference. 136. c 138. Can 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMIMITTEE E. Cahon, r.sq. j o§_ (^;f^u y^^^ g^^te what is the average period during which they remained ? — ■ I think some of them remained three months. 7 febiuary 1^38. ^^^^ -^^ ^^^ think any of them have remained as long as six months r — I think not. 140. My. Baines.'] Have you not stated that the pressure has been for 15 months? ■ — I have. 141. If the pressure has been for 15 months, is it not very probable that some of the poor affected by that pressure would remain in the house [iretty nearly the whole time of it ? — We do not find that practically with able-bodied men ; they do not stop in that length of time ; I am not aware of any instances of able-bodied men having been that length of time in the workhouse ; but 1 can, by reference to the workhouse book, the Admission and Discharge Book, state the length of time that each man has been in ; we had 971 in, and we now have 926. 142. Mr. irakley.] Supposing the relieving officer were to represent to the board of guardians at the i)resent period that a labouring man with a wife and four children is out of employment, and residing in a cottage, but is in a state of extreme destitution, how would the board of guardians treat such a case? — They would, I conceive, set the man to work, if he Avere not a man of decidedly impro- vident habits, and known as a pauper ; if he was known as a drunken fellow, or as an improvident man, they would order that man into the workhouse ; but if he was not so known, they would set him to out-door task-work. 143. At which he could earn how much a week ? — A man with four children would earn 8 *. or 9 5. 144. You are aware of the practice with other Unions? — Yes. 145. Is the same practice adopted in other Unions r^ — We have never had that pressure in other Unions which we have had in Nottingham. 146. But the pressure in the individual case is equally strong ; how in another Union, if you found a man equally destitute, with a wife and four children, would you act? — We should order him into the workhouse; the Commissioners have relaxed the rule in Nottingham because of the pressure; it is not relaxed in the other cases. 147. But in the case of Nottingham the workhouse is not full; you could take him in, and you do not? — We could ; but still there is a pressure ; we do not think it advisable to take them all in, and still we distinguish between the provident and improvident ; but if trade was to revive, I conceive the Commissioners would give the same rule as before, and we should return to the former practice ; but while the board of guardians have that option they now possess under the Com- missioners' rules, they exercise it with discretion, and make a difference between the provident and improvident man. 148. What would be the practice of guardians in the Stamford or the Grantham Union in such a case as I have put ? — That man would be ordered into the work- house, as the only relief he could receive. 149. So that in point of fact, because there are a great number of persons out of employ, and reduced to a state of extreme destitution, they are placed in a better situation in the Nottingham Union than persons similarly circumstanced would be in other Unions where there is a less number out of employ? — No, I conceive not, and for this reason ; we know in Nottingham, from the great pressure which has arisen,-— there is a moral knowledge on the part both of the board of guardians, the Commissioners and myself, — that employment is exceedingly scarce in Nottingham. ; consequently the same test is perhaps not absolutely necessary there at this present moment, as is necessary where no such depression of trade has taken place. In Stamford and in Grantham there is employment, I conceive, for all the people all the year round ; and if the people are provident and husband their means, they can support themselves, I conceive ; but in Nottingham we know at tlie present time that there are such numbers thrown out of employment, that a less test, if I may use the expression, answers the purpose here than in the other cases. 1.50. 1 hough you may conceive that there is employment, the people may not be able to find it ? — This is all matter of opinion ; and I am giving my impression founded upon experience. }f)i. It being admitted that they can find employment easily enough, but not get remuneration wages, what would be the treatment of an able-bodied man with a wife and family, if he were out of employment in any other of your Unions ? — He would be ordered into the workhouse. 152. If ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) n 1 52. If lie had a wife and six children under 10 years of age, if he were a man E. Guisou, Esq. of o-ood character, and could prove to the guardians that it was not in his power to get work, and tried by every means to obtain labour, he would be under tlie 7 February 1838. necessity of giving up his cottage and going into the workhouse? — Yes ; but you say if he could prove to the guardians; I ask how he can prove to the guardians ; we want a test of that fact, and the workhouse affords that test. 1 53. Lord Ilowick.] You act, in short, upon the presumption that in parts of the country where there is no disturbing cause to deprive industrious meti of labour, a properly conducted and industrious labourer can find employment, if he takes proper means to do so r — Yes. 154. Mr. Miles.'] And in the Stamford and Grantham Unions you would sup- pose that there is employment enough for all ? — Yes. 155. Mr. Waklej/.] You say, " if that man could prove to the guardians," and that therefore you apply a test, which is the workhouse? — Yes. 156. Do not the guardians represent all the parishes in the Union r — Yes. 1 -J 7. Is there any man who could make a representation with regard to the state of labour in that parish, who would not at once be answered by the repre- sentation on the part of some of the guardians that he had stated that which was untrue, if it were untrue, and that which was true, if it was correct? — No; I will suppose that all the guardians of the unions are assembled, and that a man applies to the board, and states that he cannot get employment ; I will ask how any man in the parish, let its size be what it may, can state whether Mr. So-and- so in that parish can employ the man ; he cannot state whether the farmers in that parish can employ the man. 158. Do not you conceive that to be a most imperfect representation of the state of the poor ? — No, not the least. 1 59. Would it not be a totally different case if the man made the representation to the rate-payers of the parish assembled in open vestry ? — If you could get all the rate-payers of every parish constantly in vestry, and let the man apply to them, it would be a proof that he could not get employment in his own parish, but it does not follow that he cannot get it elsewhere. 160. But the man has not wherewithal to travel over the countr}''; if he does, is he not taken up as a vagrant for leaving his family destitute? — No. 161. Have you not known of that being done? — No, when the man is seeking employment, certainly not. 162". Do you believe that it has not happened ? — I decidedly believe this, that if a man travelled out of his own parish in search of employment, and was really in search of employment, I am not at all aware, nor do I believe, that that man would run any risk of being taken up and apprehended as a vagrant. 163. You believe that as the Union is extensive, and as there is but one person probably representing a considerable parish, that the guardians would have no opportunities of knowing whether a labourer was making a correct representation or not; but, as a means of testing his destitution, they must at once oti'er him the house? — Decidedly. 164. Mr. Miles.] You know something of open vestries, do you not? — I do. 165. Generally speaking, was there a good attendance of farmers at the open vestries under the old law ? — Quite the contrary. 166. And therefore not above two or three conducted the whole business of the parish ? — Exactly. 167. Therefore there was as great a difficulty in discovering whether all the farmers employed as many men as they needed, as there would be under the present system ? — Certainly, because under the open vestry it was no one's business, and here it is the business of the relieving officer. 168. Mr. Ziito'.] Do not you know that this test existed under the old law ? — Partially in certain localities. 169. If a magistrate made an order for the relief of the family ; if the overseer said, '' I will not obey that order, 1 will take him into the workhouse," the magis- trate's order ceased, did it not? — In so small a part of the country was there a workhouse into which to take them, and many of those were under Gilbert's Act, some under one management and some under another, some under local Acts and some under Gilbert's, and some had no workhoube at all. 136. c 2 170. Mr. 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Guhoii, Esq. 7 February 1838. 1 70. Mr. Walker?^ In the parishes generally there was not accommodation for them."^ — Certainly not. 171. You stated that 81 men received 27/. 14 s. 3 d. in the week, and that they were the better classes of labourers, and that they had families? — Will you allow me to make this explanation ; that is, the first week in which these men were em- ployed, and that being the case, it is not improbable that a portion of those 81 men that were returned to me as employed on the Saturday were only employed for a part of the week ; some men came on the Wednesday, and some on the Thursday. If the Committee will allow me to give the next week, or any other following week, it will be more correct. I have three weeks together in which the number employed was 79 ; on the 23d of September, the 30th, and October the 7th, there were 79 men employed on each of those weeks, and the amount of relief afforded was 34 /. 3 s. per week. 172. Mr. Fietden.] Can you state what was the number in the family of those 79 men? — I think,, on the average, there would be a wife and four children. 1 73. That would be six persons to live in a family, and the allowance you made them was 34 /. 3 s. per week ; what will that give for each family, sup- posing them to be, as you say, six in number ? — It will be about 9 s- or 8 s. l\ d. 1 74. Can you state the exact number of persons dependent upon the heads of all those families? — No, not without reference to accounts ; I could not remember how many from week to week each family consisted of. 1 75. Have you any means of getting at the account that will show you the names of those 79 men, and the number of wives and children ? — Certainly. 176. You can furnish the Committee with that information I — I can. 177. Mr. Walker'.] Have you any average amount for each child, in the way of calculation as to the reward of labour ? — I think that that was very much more with Mr. Barnett than with myself; I am not aware. 1 78. Supposing those families might average six in number, what do you sup- pose each would have? — I think there would be about Is. 6 d. a week for each. 179. M.V. Fielderi.l You mentioned the period when the greatest number were employed at this task-work, which you stated was 217; do you know what amount of relief was given in that week r — Eighty-seven pounds and eight-pence. 180. Can you give the number of persons dependent upon the 871. s. 8d. 1 — Yes, the books will show that, equally with the other. 181. Will you be kind enough to furnish that ? —I will. 182. You stated to the Committee that the relieving officer was the first persou to whom any poor person wanting relief was to make application? — Except in the case of sudden and urgent emergency, he is. 183. The relieving officer reports that case to the board? — Yes. 1 84. What is the longest time that intervenes between the application made in the first instance to the relieving otficer, and the time it comes before the board ? — I will suppose the board to meet on the Monday, it is possible that an application may be made on the Tuesday, consequently the case could not come before the board of guardians till the following Monday ; but the relieving officer's duty is in the mean time to do that which in his opinion the necessity of the case requires, reporting to the board of guardians what he has done for confirmation, as well as taking the board of guardians' order for it. 185. But the relieving officer has the discretion to deny any relief being afforded whatever upon any application being preferred to the board of guardians ? — Yes, certainly ; but he must give a full and particular account to the board of guardians for having so done ; he is bound to report every application. 1 86. Chairman.] Is it in the discretion of the relieving officer whether or not to give an account to the board of guardians of every application of a poor man ? — Certainly not. 1 87. It is in his discretion to refuse relief, but it is not in his discretion whether or not he shall give an explanation to the board of his refusing the application ? — • Certainly not ; he is bound to report every application that has been made to him, and what is done for it ; if he has refused, he is bound to give full and particular reasons for his so doing. 188. So that in every case the board of guardians becomes the ultimate judge of the propriety of the step which he has taken? — Yes. 189. Mr. ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 13 i8g. Mr. Miles.] And must not every application be entered in an Application £• Gulson, Esq. Book which must be laid before the board? — Decidedly. •; 190. Mr. Hodges.] You stated as the reason and justification for the relaxation 7 I'ebmary 1838. of the rule in the case of Nottingham, in consequence of which out-door relief has been admitted — your expression was, "a moral knowledge on the part of the board of guardians, and yourself of a want of demand for labour ?" — I did not state that ; you will find, by reference to my answer, that what I said regarding the moral knowledge was not in reference to the Commissioners' relaxation of the rule, but in reference to the question of Mr. Wakley relative to sending a man and his wife and four children into the workhouse at Nottingham, or employing him out of doors. 191. But it was in consequence of a moral knowledge of the want of demand for labour that that distinction was made ? — The cause for the relaxation was the workhouse being full, and the pressure continuing and being so great, that we could no longer apply that test. 192. Mr. JVaklcy.] Still you adopt the same rule, although the workhouse is not now full ? — Because, in the present state of trade, it would not be prudent on the part of the Commissioners again to tighten the cord, if I may so express myself, and prevent any person being relieved out of the workhouse, for trade is still in that state that it is more wise to give the board of guardians a discretion ; and whilst the pressure exists, and the board of guardians have that discretion, they do what they please with it. 193. Mr. Hodges.] You used the expression, that a moral knowledge had caused this relaxation of the rule? — No, the moral knowledge which I spoke of was, the moral knowledge of the board of guardians, which led them to believe that the men could not really get employment, and that consequently they did not order them into the workhouse, but ordered them out-door relief instead. 194. And you used the word in order to explain why that variation took place in the practice of the guardians ? — Yes. 195. If a moral knowledge of a want of demand for labour justified the practice that you have described in Nottingham, not objected to by the Commissioners in London, why should not a moral knowledge of a want of demand for labour in a rural district justify a similar departure ? — But I am not aware of any such knowledge having obtained in a rural district. 1 96. But if the principle be right in the one case, is it not your opinion that it would be right in another case ? — It is a matter of fact, I conceive ; Is the trade so bad, is the want of employment so great, that the workhouse is no longer applicable? That is the fact upon which it turns. 197. M.Y. Miles.] In the agricultural community, supposing, from long con- tinued inclemency of the weather, it were impossible to employ an agricultural community, and that agricultural community should come upon the poor-rates, the workhouse being full, would it not be necessary to apply the same remedy likewise? — If the workhouse was full, it would. 198. And it has been applied in Nottingham, only because the workhouse being full, it was necessary to look to some other test by which you could find out whether to a person applying for relief it was absolutely requisite? — It was solely from that cause. 199. Mr. Waklei;.] Did you not state, at a former period of your examination, that the workhouse would contain 970 persons, and that now there are 920 ? — Exactly. 200. How do you reconcile that statement of fact with the answer which yon have given to the last question?— I reconcile it in this way, that the number of people out of employment in Nottingham is still so great, that the workhouse would not contain them all ; for instance, we have now 102 men employed, and those men have families, perhaps, on an average, of a wife and four children, or a wife and three, which would make five in each family, and that would be 500 people; the workhouse has held 970, but now has 920, consequently we have room for 50, and here are 500 people provided for by out-door relief. 201. If you had workhouse accommodation for the whole of the unemployed in Nottingham, would you take them into the house? — Certainly. 202. What would they cost you per head in the house? — About half a-crown a head. 203. What do they cost you employing them upon the road? — Eighteen-pence, perhaps, a head. 136. c 3 204. So 14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMrrTEE E. Giilson, Esq. 204. So that you would prefer havinsr them in the workhouse at the larger cost, and employed at what you might denominate unproductive labour? — But the 7 February 1838. question arises whether they would all come into the workhouse ; if we could apply the workhouse test to them all, would not that test induce them to go farther a-field and gain employment ? 205. If they have the value of 2 5. 6d. a head per week in the workhouse, why should they prefer receiving 1*. G^. a week out of the workhouse; what are the annoyances or restraints tiiat they have in tlie workhouse which should make them prefer the smaller payment out of it? — The reason why they prefer the out- door employment to the workhouse is, that they live at home and are at liberty, whereas in the workhouse they are obliged, of course, to conform to that discipline and order which is necessary for the regulation of all large establishments. 206. Mr. Baines.] Is there not another reason, that a man feels himself de- graded when he has to come into a workhouse, and he prefers the independence which keeps him out of the workhouse, though he has a smaller remuneration ? — I scarcely understand the word independence as applied to a pauper, because I cannot conceive a pauper to be independent. 207. Your explanation was, that he vvas under restraint when in the workhouse, but not under restraint when out of it ? — ^Not to such an extent. 208. Independent I apply to want of restraint; that a man is more indepen- dent, having in reality the disposal of his time and the disposal of his person in any way that he thinks proper when he is out of the workhouse, than when he is in? — Certainly he is in that respect more independent, and that greater degree of independence operates also by that much to make him prefer being on the parish in the one case as compared to the other. 209. Mr. iScrope.] I gather from all you have said lately, that your opinion is, that relief, with regard to the able-bodied labourers, should be confined to relief in the workhouse, except in cases of very extraordinary pressure upon the entire community ? — Certainly. 210. And that you would not apply the additional test of labour on public works, until the former test, the workhouse, had broken down from the inadequacy of the provision for it ? — Decidedly so, and that any general application of a labour test would be exceedingly mischievous. 211. What is your reason for forming that opinion, that the labour test sliould not be resorted to, except in those extraordinary emergencies ; what are the pecu- liar advantages of the workhouse test over the labour test, which induce you to refuse out-door employment in the shape of labour to parties, who prhnd facie appear to be industrious and willing to earn their livelihood if employed, and persons of good character ? — I conceive that the workhouse test is a certain test ; the other is altogether an uncertain test, save and except in such a case as Notting- ham, where every body knows that the depression of trade is so great that thou- sands of hands are thrown out of employment. 212. 'Mr. Fidde)iP\ What is the task-work which those labourers or artisans have been set to in Nottingham 1 — Digging out a great road. 213. What is the length of time that they are required to work ; when do they commence their labour, and when do they leave off? — They work about lU hours a day. 214. What time is allowed in that for meals? — They have an hour for dinner ; but. I think that their labour continues about 10 hours; that they are on the ground about 1 1 hours, and that they have their dinner hour out of it. 215. Mr. Wakky.'] But they are employed, you say, on task-work ? — Yes ; but we oblige them to keep time as well ; they work in gangs, and club together; for instance, half a dozen men agree to work together, working by task-work. 216. Mr. Ficlden.] Do you pay them by the day ? — No, by the yard. FIRST REPORT SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT , WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Ordered, by The House of Commuus, to be Printed, 9 February 1 838. 136. SECOND REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT; WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed, 13 February 1838. 13S. [ ii ] Lu7ice, ly" die Novembris, 1837, Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the Administi-ation of the Rehef of the Poor, under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act. Ordered, That the Committee consist of Twenty-one Members : Lord John Russell. Mr. Ward. Mr. Fazakerley. Lord Viscount Howick. Mr. Richard Walker. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Poulett Scrope. Mr. Villiers. Mr. Raines. Mr. Miles (Somerset). Mr. Boiling. Mr. Law Hodges. Mr. Lister. Mr. Chichester. Sir Thomas Fremantle. Mr. Slaney. Mr. Barneby. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Liddell. Mr. John Fielden. Mr. Estcourt (Devizes). Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers and Records. Ordered, That Five be the Quorum of the Committee. Jovis, 8° die Februarn, 1838. Ordered, That power be given to the Committee to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House. THE REPORT P- "' MINUTES OF EVIDENCE P- i [ iii ] REPORT. THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the Administration of the Relief of the Poor under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law- Amendment Act ; and who were empowered to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before tliem from time to time to The House : — TTAVE taken some further Evidence, which they have agreed to report to -■- -*- The House. 13 February 1838. 138. [ iv ] WITNESS. Edward Gulson, Esq. [ I ] MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Ve?}eris, 9° die Febriiarii, 1838. MEMBKKS PRESENT : Mr. Barneby. Mr. Lister. Mr. Boiling. Mr. Miles. Mr. Fielding. Lord John Russell Mr. Freshfield. Mr. P. Scrope. Mr. Hodges. Mr. Vilhers. Lord Howick. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Liddell. Mr. Walker. Mr. FAZAKERLEY in the Chair. Edward Gnlson, Esq., again called in ; and Examined. 217. Chairman']. YOU have stated that, in the parish of St. Mary, Nottingham, you did not find it necessary, upon introducing the administration of the new Poor Law, to make any great changes in the mode of giving relief; uhat was the case with regard to the other two parishes of which the Nottingham Union is composed? — They did not adopt the workhovise system to anything like the same extent that it had been adopted in St. Mary's parish ; it was more like the administration in rural parishes. 218. Do you apply that observation to both of the other parishes ? — I do. 219. Had they both separate workhouses 1 — They had. 220. Were the affairs of the poor administered by an open vestry in both those parishes ? — Yes. 221. Upon what principle did they give relief, as far as you know ? — I should say, upon no principle at all. 222. To what use did they apply their workhouses ? — Principally to those who had no other place to go to ; not at all as a test, I conceive ; for instance, I remember, in one of those workhouses, seeing great buckets full of food being carried away and being thrown to the pigs. 223. In which of those workhouses did you see that ? — St. Nicholas. 224. Buckets of food fit for the consumption of human beings? — They would have been before they were thrown into the receptacle for the pigs' food ; good meat, bread, and every thing of that kind. 225. Do you mean broken meat? — Yes; in fact it was plainly this : that the inmates were fed without limit ; a great many of them had a great deal more than was needful for them, that was plainly shown by whole slices going away ; it was not really broken meat, but slices which would of themselves form dinners for others. 226. Large pieces of bread ? — Yes. 227. Wholesome good food ? — Yes. 228. Indicating, as you conceive, great laxity in the administration of the affairs of the workhouse? — Decidedly so. 229. Do you know what was the expense, with that irregular consumption of food, of the maintenance of the poor in those workhouses ? — Not by memory I do not, but I can get it for the Committee. 230. Mr. Hodges.] Will the return be of the rations per head, or of the gross expense of feeding the poor in the workhouse ? — I will get it as minutely as I can. 231. At per head? — 1 will try to get the return hi that manner. 232. Chairman.] What was the effect generally upon the labouring population of those parishes, as compared with the effect of the administration in St. Mary's ? — I should conceive that those parishes do not contain a large proportion of the 138. A labouring E. Gulson, Esq. 9 February 1838. 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Gulson, Esq. labouring population, as compared with tlie parish of St. Mary ; they are dif- "~! 7 n ferently situated in that respect, and their expenditure per pound was less in o February 1S38. .1 "^ • 1 ^1 • .1 .1 ^ r r ■' those parishes than m the other. 233. Their per centage upon the rate was less ? — Exactly ; but that arose from the different character of the population. 234. What is the character of the population principally in those two parishes ? — Tradesmen. 235. A smaller proportion of the population of the poorer classes? — De- cidedly so. 236. Allow me to ask, when you were called upon to introduce this law into Nottingham, or when you have been called upon to introduce it at other times into other districts, have you found, on the part of the people, of whatever class, any strong apprehensions as to the effect of the law ? — Very great misconceptions and misapprehensions of all kinds. 237. What has been the nature generally of those misconceptions and misap- prehensions? — I should say that the most general misconception that I have met with, has been the idea that all persons, old and young, of every description, were to be forced into the workhouse, and that no out-door relief of any kind was to be afforded. 238. That idea has raised a great deal of hostility r — Most decidedly. 239. And your experience of the law leads you to know that that is entirely incorrect r — Entirely so. 240. What is the practice under the administration of the law with regard to aged persons ?^ — To give them out-door relief. 241. Have you observed that the board of guardians are in the habit of enforcing residence in the workhouse as an indispensable requisite for relieving aged persons I — Quite the contrary ; it is a complete exception to the general rule that an old person should be sent into the workhouse, and some particular cause must operate to induce them to give such an order ; for instance, if a person was of very dissolute habits and bad character, or if a person really showed that he had no where else to go to, then, I conceive, they would be ordered into the workhouse, but not otherwise. 242. In cases where persons aged or very infirm had no friends with whom they could reside, and no comfortable house in which they could find a lodging, would not the workhouse be to them a very good asylum ? — I conceive very much so; and I cannot give you a better idea of that than by telling you that one of the last times I was in Nottingham workhouse I saw an old woman whose face was new to me, and she was evidently a new comer, because she was in her own clothes, and I said to her, " I hope you are comfortable in this house," and she said, '• Ah, sir, I only wish I had known how comfortable it was, I would have been here long ago." 243. Have you ever observed any reluctance on the part of old persons so circumstanced to leave the workhouse when it is proposed to them to do so ? — -Yes, decidedly so ; we wanted to get rid of a considerable number of them at Notting- ham during this pressure, in order to make room for another description of poor, and they objected to go. 244. Upon wliat ground did they object to go ? — That they had no place to go to, and they were very comfortable where they were. 245. Have you observed it to be the practice, and should you recommend it in your practice as Assistant-commissioner, that wherever arrangements could be made by the friends of aged persons for them to live with them, in those cases those arrangements should be made ? — Certainly. 246. And practically that is generally the effect of the administration of the law ? — Decidedly so. 247. The apprehension that aged persons would be forced into the workhouse, you have found to be one of the prevailing apprehensions when the law is first introduced ? — I have. 248. Have you ever found another apprehension of a general nature existing, which you think is equally without foundation r — I should say that people like to have the management of their own affairs, and they feel a great jealousy of having that management taken out of their hands. 249. Have you sometimes observed that opinion, that it would be desirable to retain the management of those concerns entirely in their own hands, prevail in districts extremely ill administered ? — Constantly. •j'io. Have ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 3 250. Have you found it prevail in those districts wliere the allowance system E- Guhon, Efq. prevails to a great extent ? — Decidedly so. ■ 251. Do you think that tlie prevalence or existence of what is usually termed 9 february 1S38. the allowance system, that is, the payment of part of the wages out of parish relief, is one that conduces to the prosperity and comfort of the labouring popu- lation? — Quite the contrary. 252. As far as you have observed, what have been the effects of the allowance system upon the labouring population? — That of inducing them to depend upon the rate instead of their own exertions. 25.3. What has been the effect of accustoming themselves to depend upon the rate, instead of their own exertions? — I should say, making themselves little worth having; making their labour valueless. 254. If a man receives a certain allowance from the rate, independently of the amount of work that he does, does not that operate upon the man necessarily as a^ inducement to be negligent of his work ? — Decidedly it does necessarily so. 255. And in point of fact, and within your own experience, have you observed that work so done, where the payment is partly or principally from the rate, is very much less diligently done than where the payment is entirely in wages earned by labour? — Decidedly so ; indeed I have heard the farmers state over and over again in Berks and Oxfordshire, where the allowance system prevailed to a very great extent, that they had not a workman worth having. 256. In those parishes, since the allowance system has been put an end to, have you observed among the same parties any different expression of feeling? — Decidedly so, very decidedly so. 257. Of what nature ? — That the improvement in the habits and manners and industry of the people was so great, that they were completely an altered people. 258. Mr. Hodges.] Have you heard farmers give that opinion ? — Over and over again. 259. Mr. Wakkij.'] — By whom was the allowance system introduced in Oxfordshire and Berkshire ? — It was introduced in Berkshire by the magistrates ; I believe there is an old scale to be found, termed the Speenham-land Act of Parliament; tne Speenham-land is part of the town of Newbury. 260. Was the allowance system a necessary part of the Act of the 43d of Elizabeth? — Certainly not, but it became a practical part of it. 261. Could not the allowance system have been completely destroyed, without passing the Poor Law Amendment Act ? — For a time it might ; but I conceive that what had happened would have happened again, probably. 262. ChairmaiiJ] Did not the allowance system, in point of fact, originate from the Act of 1796, which gave the magistrates a discretionary power of orderino- out-door relief? — Decidedly so. 263. Mr. Hodges.'] Do you happen to know what caused that Act to pass ? — No, I merely know that that was the fact. 264. Tlien you are unacquainted with the history of the country at the time that that Act passed ? — I am unacquainted with its history, so far as to account for the Act passing. 265. Mr. P. Scrope.] Had not the allowance system an indirect effect in enabling employers to lower tlie wages generally of their labourers? — Most decidedly. 266. in that way it was prejudicial to the pecuniary interests of the labouring classes ? — Decidedly. 267. But the abolition of it, you conceive, must liave the effect of raising the rate of wages of the labouring classes ? — Decidedly so. 268. In what way do you trace the influence of the allowance system in depress- ing the wages of labourers ? — I conceive that if tlie allowance system exists, other people are called to contribute to the wages of the men who do not employ them ; and consequently, that when a farmer knows that he can get his men for a less sum, because the wages are made up from another source, that operates constantly upon him, and he keeps going down and down, still knowing that the man is supplied with that which he wants, from another source. 269. Is it not the fact, under the allowance system, that the employer is not obliged to pay a rate of wages sufficient to support the families of the labourers whom he employs r — Precisely so; that I meant to state by my last answer. 270. And therefore he throws the families of his labourers upon the community amongst which he lives, and lie himself is enabled to employ the labourers at a i.3''>- A 2 rate 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Gnlson,'Esc[. rate of wages sufficient to maintain him alone? — Yes, I conceive this to be the case, that the wants of the man that he employs have nothing- to do with the 9 February 1838. amount of wages which he gives, whilst if the man is entirely thrown upon the wages, they have every thing to do with it. 271. Do you not know instances in which, under the allowance system, the rate of wages generally was reduced in parts of the country below what was esteemed sufficient to maintain an average family ? — Most decidedly so. 272. Do you perceive the operation of the present system abolishing the allow- ances to have a practical effect in the raising the rate of wages? — I conceive so, decidedly. 273. State where and in what manner you perceive that? — In Berkshire I con- ceive that the wages decidedly are raised in consequence of the operation of the Poor Law Amendment Act. 274. Mr. Hodges.] Have you any proof of that? — The wages are higher than they were. 27.5. To what extent? — I should think to the extent of 2s. a week. 276. Mr. Wakley.] What are the wages there now ? — The wages there now are 9*. and 10s. a week; when I went there, they were 7*. 277. Mr. Hodges.] Do you state that generally as applied to the whole county? — At this end of the county they are differently circumstanced; this end of the county, you are aware, goes up towards Windsor, and I consider that to be the aristocratic part of the county, where the people are very differently circum- stanced from what they are in agricultural parts of the county, and therefore you should allow me to say, in speaking of the county, I mean the agricultural part of the county, where that cause does not operate. 278. Mr. Walker.] You speak of that part where the land is occupied by farmers ?- Precisely so. 279. Chairman.] Was not this the case under the allowance system, that if the farmer knew that, whatever wages he gave, the parish would supply the deficiency to come up to the scale requisite for the relief of the family, he would make the amount of the wages as small and the amount to be paid by the parish as large as possible?— Decidedly, that is just what I have stated, that the amount of the man's wants above his wages were made up from the parish purse, and the wages had no reference to the amount of labour actually performed. 280. Mr. Scrope.] And since the change the farmer feels himself obliged to give a sufficient rate of wages to maintain the family as well as the man, unless he chooses to run the risk of the man leaving his service, and either going into the workhouse, or going into another neighbourhood where wages are higher ? — Certainly ; I have seen instances at boards of guardians where, on a man and his family being offered the workhouse, the guardian of the parish has said, " Why, we had better raise the man's wages a shilling or two than allow that, it will cost us this, that and the other in the workhouse ;" that is the way in which they look at it. 281. Lord Hotvlck.] You have stated that the tendency of the allowance sys- tem was to induce farmers to reduce their wages as low as possible, trusting to what was required being made up by the parish ? — Yes. 282. With respect to the portion to be made up by the parish, was it not the practice to withhold that portion, if the man had any thing of his own ? — Yes, certainly ; and nothing has been more common in looking over the parish books than to find inventories of poor people's furniture, which has been taken by the overseers, they laying their hands upon it, and saying " This is mine," on such relief being afforded to them ; I have seen over and over and over again, in books, inven- tories of poor people's furniture, though allowing the parties to have the use of it, yet there is the inventory made, and the goods belonging to the parish. 283. Mr. JVakkt/.] Will you name the parishes in which you have seen those inventories ? — Considering that I have had to do with some 1,600 parishes, I think you are pressing my memory further than I should like to go ; nevertheless, I am confident, if the Committee wisli it, that by^referring to my books of the Unions, and going through all the parish books again, that I can produce such books to the Committee. 284. Your remark was, that you had seen it over and over and over again? — Yes, 1 have ; and will you allow me to remark, that frequently it is not that which we have seen over and over again that we can distinctly specify as to time and place. 285. Do ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (183S.) 5 285. Do you mean to say that the instances have been so very numerous that £ Guhon, Esq. you are incapable or" stating one? —No, I do not mean to state that; I mean that I have seen it over and over again, and if the Committee wish it I can produce 9 February 1838. the books in which f have seen it ; but as to specifying instances by memory, I would rather not attempt. 286. Lord Hoioick.] Then the Committee are to understand you that the effect of that system was to render it utterly impracticable for any man, however anxious he might be to be frugal and industrious, to raise himself above the situation of a day labourer by his own industry? — I conceive entirely so, and that the effect was that of depressing and pushing the man lower and lower. 287. If he attempted to save, the consequence was, that his allowance from the parish was stopped, and he was thrown then upon a rate of wages upon which he could not maintain himself and his family ? — Decidedly so ; he never had any allowance whilst he had saved any thing and had any thing on hand. 288. The effect, therefore, was decidedly to discourage industry and frugality in the labouring population of those parishes where this system j)revailed ? — I conceive decidedly so. 289. Mr. Wakk]/.] If a man has saved any thing now, and has any thing on hand, if he applies to you for relief, being out of work, how do you treat them ? — There are many men in the Sleaford Union who have been receiving relief, although possessed of a pig and potatoes, for the food of that pig during the winter. 2yo. Mr. LiddelL] Receiving relief out of doors ? — Yes, our workhouse there is not completed yet. 291. Mr. Wakky.l Would behave experienced this lenity from the Commis- sioners and guardians, if the workhouse had been built? — I conceive that if he had been an able-bodied man he would not; but if he had been an old person, or an infirm person, he would. 292. Mr. Hodges.'] You have stated that you have seen, over and over again, entries in the old parish books, of relief being given to poor persons upon pledge of a portion of their furniture? — I have not said upon pledge; the operation is this, that when the poor person came to the overseer for relief, the overseer has gone to his house, and taken an inventory of the furniture, and has claimed that furniture as belonging to the parish, before giving relief to the poor man. 293. That is, in other words, pledged it to the parish? — Those were not my words. 294. Have you ever seen any entry in any parish books where that inventory has been acted upon by sale ? — I am confident it has. 295. Have you seen any entry in any of the parish books to that effect ? — I have seen entries on the credit side of the book, of the furniture of the poor person. 296. Corresponding with the entry on the other side of the book, of money granted on the credit of such furniture? — I do not say that at all ; I have never added up in the book the amount of relief that the poor person has had ; it has been no part of my business to do that at all. 297. Mr. Lkldelll You have said, that in the case of able-bodied men apply- ing for relief, and being thrown out of work, you conceive that if the workhouse had been established, they would not have received out-door relief? — I do. 298. Is it not the ordinary practice, when an able-bodied man applies for relief, although thrown out of work by accidental circumstances, to refer him to the workhouse, and to refuse him relief in any other method ? — Yes. 299. That is the principle upon which relief is invariably administered to the able-bodied applicants ibr relief? — If you had not put in the word invariably, I should have answered distinctly yes, because yesterday we were upon a case where that was not adopted ; but it is the general principle, save and except where, as at Nottingham, so great an emergency arises, that that system can no longer be adopted. 300. Why is that a general practice ? — Because I conceive it conduces to the men's providence, and enables them to support themselves ; that is practically shown, I conceive, by the operation of the Act. 301. But it may happen that an able-bodied man may be thrown out of work without any fault of his own ? — Certainly, during a frost. 302. Is he maintained in the workhouse at a lower cost than he might be relieved in his own dwelling r — No. 303. Higher? — Yes. J38. A 3 304. li 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E.Cuhcn, Esq. 204. Is it more in accordance with his own feelings that he should go to the ~ ~" workhouse, than that he should be relieved in his own dwelling? — No. 9 e ruary 1 3 . ^^^ Then whence is the advantage? — The advantage I conceive to be this, that if the man knows, on the one hand, that during the frost he can be main- tained out oftlie parish purse, and fall back upon other than his. own earnings, that man has little inducement to lay by when he has an opportunity of laying by, and making a provision for such an emergency ; but if that man knows that in such a case he has nothing but the workhouse to fall back upon, I conceive that he then looks forward to such natural emergencies and contingencies, as severity of weather and a few weeks' want of labour, and provides for it, and therefore renders himself totally independent of the parish purse. That I see con- stantly occurring, and, as an instance, there were 18 applicants the other day at the Holbeach Union, able-bodied men, to whom the workhouse was oflered, but not one of them came in, because, they said, that they thought if that was it, rather than come into tiie workhouse they could do without it. They have done without it, and, as I understand, have not suffered through it. I have not myself seen the men, because 1 have not been to Holbeach since. 306. Do you consider that many cases may not arise, in which the most indus- trious and the most frugal man, from having a large family, may find it impossible to lay by money for cases of emergency? — I conceive that it is possible that such an instance may arise, but that that occurrence is such an evil as is ten thou- sand times less than the evil on the other side of the question. 307. Do not you conceive it very highly probable with a man whose family is annually increasing upon him, that at the rate of wages of lO^'. a week, which you state to be the ordinary rate of wages in Berkshire, such a man cannot lay by any money against a time of emergency ? — No, 1 do not conceive it highly pro- bable ; and you say, a man with a family increasing ; 1 conceive if because a man's family is increasing, you are to leave him out of the workhouse, you thereby offer a premium for the increase of his family. 308. Mr. Barncby.'] In the case of old people who have relations who can mamtain them, or are supposed to be able to maintain them, in part or in whole, is it the general rule in the unions which you superintend to order those people into the M'orkhouser — If the guardians think that the relations can partly support them, they would give them such an amount of out-door relief as would enable them to live out of doors, in addition to that support which the relations would afford. As regards those who have relations who are able to support them, or whom the guardians conceive are able to support them, they would at once apply to the magistrates, who are the judges in those cases, to make those relations support them. 309. Have you not found any difficulty in any unions in prevailing upon ma- gistrates to grant these orders? — Yes; and allow me to follow up that answer by saying, in those cases in which I have seen an indisposition on the part of magistrates to give that aid, and to make the relations support them, the board of guardians in my district, decidedly at once, has given out-door relief, and has not enforced the workhouse upon the old persons. 310. Mr. LiddclL] Do not such individuals as I have alluded to, who have been thrown out of work by temporary accident, evince usually the greatest dislike to be sent to the workhouse? — Yes, decidedly so; so long as they can do without the workhouse, of course they will not come in. 311. Have you ever known instances of able-bodied men enduring extreme pressure rather than be separated from their family, and go into the workhouse ? — I have not. 312. Mr. Miles.] Do not you conceive that the great advantage of the present system consists in having a test by which you can separate destitution from impo- sition ?— Decidedly so. 313. In the case of those IG Holbeach labourers to whom you referred, under the old system would they not have been immediately relieved, coming as they did in the frost, when it was known to the farmers who composed the board of guardians that it was impossible that they shouhl find labour ? -Certainly. 314. But now that you have the test of a workhouse in that union, of course you are able to throw those men upon their own resources? — Yes, and apply that test. 315. And then in preference to being sent to the workhouse, though they had the orders given tlieni, they immediately went away, and arc not now on the parish ? — Precisely. 3iii. Mr. WtiUei/.] ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1S38.) 7 3 1 f). Mr. IVakky.'] Do you know what families those men have r — No, I do f_, Gukon, Esq. not. 317. Are you aware of the extent of the misery that they endured in conse- 9 February 1838. quence of the refusal of the guardians to give them relief? — I am told that they did not endure misery ; I am not aware of it myself, because I have not been to visit any one of them. 3 1 8. Do you know the names of those men ? — I can get them. 319. Will you get the names and the numbers of the families, and the parish in which they lived ? — I will ; in reference to the question that was asked me as to enabling men to provide for themselves by the operation of the workhouse test, I should like to mention the case of Maidenhead in Berkshire, which occurred shortly after I went out upon the business of the Commission. Maidenhead, as the Committee know, is a town ^6 miles from London, on the Oxford road, and although a corporate town it is not a parish ; it is a long place, a mile long, and the street is the parish boundary ; one side of the street is in the parish of Bray, and the other side of the street is in the parish of Cookham. As long as 10 years ago, Mr. Whateley becoming the vicar of Cookham, found the rates at an enormous amount ; they went on increasing, and, in his opinion, the destitution and misery of the people increased, and he adopted this workhouse system in that parish ; he reduced the rates to an enormous extent, to an extent which the books will show minutely, and therefore I need not speak from memory, whilst in Bray they had done nothing of the kind ; and I found the rates on one side of the street of Maidenhead more than double what they were on the other side, and property letting proportionately high on the one side of the street, and of course proportion- ately low on the other. This had been in operation for as much as eight or nine years ; Mr. Whateley and the influential people of the parish had carried out the work- house system there to a very much greater extent tlian it has ever been carried out by the Poor Law Commissioners ; they refused out-door relief to able-bodied women with children, and to most others, and they made all the parties depend , upon themselves or come into the workhouse, save and except some extreme cases of old age ; I have stated that I found the rates double in the other parish, and no man with his eyes open could go into those two parishes without perceiving the comparative comfort, cleanliness and order of the parish of Cookham as compared with the parish of Bray, where the rates were double ; the appear- ance of the people was altogether different, and at that time the poor of Cookham parish having been thrown upon their own resources, the very labouring class that Mr. Whateley found upon the parish when he went there, the workhouse system having been adopted ; when I was at Cookham they had saved above 2000/., which was at that moment, and I have every reason to believe still continues, increasing in the savings bank ; whilst in the parish of Bray where the rates were more than double, and I believe treble, there were no savings made by the poor. 320. Chair man. ^^ And probably the relief granted in the parish of Bray was granted much more largely to the labouring poor? — Decidedly. 321. Was there a workhouse? — There was, but not at all efficient. 322. Mr. Scrope.'] AVas it not the case, under the administration of the old law, that both the workhouse and what you call the labour test were occasionally resorted to as pretended tests, but inadequately, inasmuch as they were both mis- managed ? — Decidedly so. 323. Was it not the fact, speaking of Cookham, that the parish of Cookham was dispauperized by the efforts of Mr. Whateley, rather by the application of an efficient labour test as applied to the able-bodied, than by their exclusive relief in the workhouse ? — They were connected together. 324. That is to say, the worst characters, those whom the managers of the poor rate were aware could maintain themselves, were relieved in the workhouse ; but the industrious men, or the men supposed to be willing to earn their livelihood, were employed at task-work on the parish account? — In the first instance that had been the case very much, but this had been in operation for as many as nine years, and the labour test became discontinued; so few able-bodied men applied, that, in fact, the labour test was very little resorted to after some time. 325. During the time tliat it was in operation, it was perfectly successful in getting rid of all those claims upon the parish of the able-bodied which were unfounded ? — To a very considerable extent. 326. Upon what ground is it, then, that you give so decidedly the advantage to the application of the workhouse test with respect to the able-bodied, over the 138. A 4 labour 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Giilson, Esq. labour test properly regulated and applied ? — The labour test is, first of all, very ^i difficult ; the proper application, I conceive, of the workhouse test, is very much 9 February 1838. more simple. I conceive it would be very difficult generally to apply the labour test ; though you might in one individual parish, like Cookham, find labour for them to do, yet, generally speaking, you would, by adopting that, very much interfere with the course of labour. 327. Chairman.'] Would not the superintendence which would be required be very difficult ?— Very ; both the labour would be very difficult to find, and the superintendence would be very difficult, 328. Mr. Wakley.'] Was Mr. Whateley a magistrate? — Yes, he was, to the best of my knowledge and belief; certainly a magistrate when 1 was in Berkshire, and I believe was so at that time. 329. C/iair?nan.] You have spoken of the difficulty of superintendence in putting the labour test into execution ; in agricultural parishes would there not also be very great difficulty in preventing a disposition arising from particular persons wishing to employ the pauper labourers for their own benefit? — Very great indeed. 330. Mr. Scrope-] Under the practice that you adopted in the case of the Nottingham Union, no great trouble was found in the superintendence since they were all employed at task-work ? — Yes, there was ; indeed it has been one of the greatest difficulties with which we have had to contend, that of superintending the men and keeping them in order and regularity ; in fact, some insubordination did break out among the young men. 331. Chairman.] What means of superintendence were made use of in Not- tingham ? — We obtained a surveyor who had been employed upon the railroad, and another man to assist him. 332. And those were means that could hardly be had recourse to by small agricultural parishes ? — Certainly not ; in fact, as a proof of that, we tried to apply the labour test at Mansfield, where the people were much in the same condition as at Nottingham, and we were unable to apply it, for we did not know what to set the men to. The board of guardians, as individuals at least, had conferences with the trustees of the turnpike roads, and we tried to get labour for them to do, and could not succeed. 23Z- Mr. Scrope.'] Without speaking of small agricultural parishes, taking the case of a union consisting of a great number of parishes where the affairs are exceedingly well conducted at present, and superintended by an Assistant-com- missioner like yourself, do you think that there would be any practical difficulty, in other cases besides that of Nottingham, of applying the test of out-door labour occasionally, in such instances as may appear to the board of guardians to be deserving of that test, in preference to the workhouse ? — I do most decidedly ; I think that that test, in agricultural parishes, would be nothing like that which it has been at Nottingham, for this reason, that the people at Nottingham are lace- makers, frame-work knitters, and are not used to that kind of labour, and it becomes somewhat irksome to them, and they will not remain longer at it than they can avoid it ; then they will go away from it as soon as their usual mode of occupation presents itself ; but if you were to employ that labour test in an agri- cultural parish, the men would remain longer ; first you would have great difficulty in providing them with labour, and it would be exceedingly inconvenient prac- tically, and it would afford nothing like the test in an agricultural parish that it has done in the town of Nottingham. 334. I gather, then, from what you have stated, that, as a general rule, you would refuse the application of that test to agricultural districts ? — I would indeed, most distinctly ; I conceive that it would be most prejudicial to the operation of the Poor Law Amendment Act, if you were to break down the workhouse test and introduce a labour test. 335. You cannot even contemplate an emergency arising in an agricultural district which should make it advisable to resort to the labour test in preference to that of the workhouse? — I cannot contemplate such an emergency; I wish the Committee to bear in mind, that I distinctly state that, in my opinion, the work- house test is the best, so long as it can be applied ; but of course when that can be no longer applied, you must then look out for the next best test ; the labour test I conceive to be the next best. 336. Supposing, in an agricultural district, under the pressure of the exclusive rule of relief to the able-bodied in the workhouse, the general rate of wages was \(j be depressed by the existence of a superabundant population, to a point below ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 9 below that which would have been considered sufficient by the magistrates of e. Guhw, Ls(j. the district to maintain a labourer with an average family, which you have stated to have been formerly the rate of wages, and at the same time that the 9 February 1838. labourers showed a total "indisposition to accept of the workhouse by way of relief, and, on the contrary, preferred resorting to a lower scale of diet, and suli- mitting to hardships which they were not before exposed to, should you not con- sider such a state of circumstances to warrant the infraction of your rule of in-door relief, and to admit of the application of the labour test?— I should not indeed ; I tliink that if you were to adopt it in such a case, you would be swamped entirely. 337. Then how would you guard against the reduction of the rate of wages in an agricultural district, owing to the excessive competition for employment, to a rate which has been hitherto considered adequate to maintain a labourer alone in comfort ? — I consider that if there is a superabundant population, that that population will beat out farther a-field for employment, and I would take a certain proportion of that superabundance into the workhouse, and if they will not come into the workhouse they necessarily go farther a-field for labour, and then that remedies itself; the workhouse is particularly suited and effective in balancing the demand and supply of labour, inasmuch as it forces it from one place where it is not wanted into one where there is more demand for it. 338. Then you assume that if the labourers look out properly for employment it is to be obtained for them at adequate wages ? — I do indeed. 339. Are you not aware that this country is exposed to the annual influx of a vast body of labourers coming from Ireland, where no poor law exists, to compete with this country, and that there is a tendency, in consequence, to reduce the rate of wages in England to something like the rate of wages in Ireland ? — I am aware that a vast number of Irish come over to this country ; but I am also aware that in the district in which I am employed the farmers would not have enough labourers to get in their harvest, and perform the work to be done, if that was not the case; on the wolds of Lincolnshire the harvest could not be got in for want of labourers, if it was not for the assistance of the Irish. 340. Mr. Wakley.'] Are you speaking of the Lincoln Union? — No, of the wolds of Lincolnshire. 341 . Mr. ScropeJ] Putting out of the question those who come over only for the harvest and return again, is there not a large number of labourers who come from Ireland to settle in this country permanently, and thereby reduce the rate of wages in this country? — There is a large influx of Irish, beyond a doubt, into this country; but a great number of those, for instance, the Irish who are employed in London, of which there are vast numbers indeed, obtain high wages instead of very low ones. 342. Mr. Miles.] Do those Irish remain permanently located ? — No, cer- tainly not. 343. Mr. Sc?'ope.'\ To whatever extent they come into England, they reduce the general rate of wages to the labourers in this country, to whom you have referred in giving the opinion that there is employment throughout the country for all the labourers within it ? — That is my impression decidedly, from what I have seen ; for instance, in Lincolnshire there is so much em|)loyment beyond that whicli the labourers of the country absorb, that that is my impression. I will give an instance of the extent to which those people have been employed in agricultural districts ; the Messrs. Handley are large bankers in Newark, and have either branch banks or communications with different parts of Lincolnshire ; Newark appears to be the point from which those Irish start home, and they pre- fer receiving their money in Newark to receiving it during the progress of their work ; for instance, perhaps Mr. x\. employs those men ; rather than receive the ■wages of Mr. A., they like to get an order upon Newark, and then to go to B. ; and Mr. Handley has told me that through their bank alone they have paid 4,000/. or 5,000/. a year to the Irish people that have come and have gone home again. 344. Mr. Hodges.'] Has not the want of agricultural labourers in the district to which you allude, arisen from the labourers having been attracted to manuiac- turing towns by the higher wages that have been ordinarily given there ? — No, I think not, because the wolds of Lincolnshire are 60 miles from any manufac- turmg town. 345. Then if the Irish did not come over to take the work at the time you allude to, would there not be room for the English labourers in those parts of tlie 138. B country 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Gukon, Esq. Country where labour is redundant to avail themselves of that labour ? — I conceive ■ that there would. gFebruary 1838. 346. But, in consequence of the Irish coming, that source of relief is closed against the English labourers? — Yes. 347. Does not that also apply to London and other places where the Irish are now, very much to their own honour, earning by their industry a comfortable maintenance ; does not the presence of those people prevent the emigration from the crowded districts of England of English labourers to derive those advantages in those places ? — By as much labour as they consume, it does. 348. Mr. Scropc.'] Considering the relative disproportion of wages in Ireland and in England, and the extraordinary facility of communication between the two countries, do you not think it too much to assume, that as long as that dispropor- tion and that facility of communication exist, the rate of wages in England generally to agricultural labourers is sufficient, if the labourers will look out for it, to give them work at an adequate rate of wages? — It appears to me that it is. 349. Do you know any facts that tend to support that opinion, and to prove that there is not a redundancy of agricultural labour throughout the coun- try ; is the rate of wages higher in any agricultural district than a sufficiency to maintain a family ?— It must either be higher than sufficient to maintain a family in one part, or less than is sufficient to maintain it in others ; because the rate of wages in some parts is \2s., and in others 8s. and 75. I should say that from lis. to 13*., decidedly, are the wages of Lincolnshire, generally speaking. 350. Is 7*. a week, do you think, sufficient to maintain a labourer's family ? — I do not think that it is ; not as an English labourer ought to be maintained. 351. Chairman. ~\ When you give that opinion, that 7*. a week is not enough to enable a labourer to maintain his family in decent comfort, do you know that 7*. a week is the usual rate of wages in some of the counties in the west of Eng- land ? — I do, and I wish to qualify my answer in this way: that I see that the labourers, for instance in Lincolnshire, are so much more comfortable than the labourers in Oxfordshire, where the rate is Is., that I should like very much in- deed to see the labourers of Oxfordshire raised to the same level as the labourers of the district in which I am now employed ; and I conceive that the operation of the Poor Law Amendment Act is decidedly to bring them both to a level. 352. Knowing, as you state you do, that in the west of England the rate of wages is about 7*., do you know, at the same time, that there stand in the savings bank of Exeter, in the centre of that district, where the wages are 7*., accounts of agricultural labourers to the amount of 65,000/. ? — I have understood that to be the case. 353. Mr. Sci'ope.^ Do you not know that the magistrates of Devonshire used to consider that rate of wages, 7.y., too low to maintain a large family of an agricul- tural labourer, and consequently that they manage to add to it out of the poor- rates ? — Yes, that was the allowance system. 354. And consequently in those districts the men with large families have deteriorated in their condition in consequence of the change ? — I conceive that the allowance system has produced that change, and has beaten down the men and their families to a lower level. 355. And as yet the operation of the system has not raised the wages suffi- ciently to enable the labourer to maintain a large family? — Not in that degree of comfort in which I should like to see them ; for instance, as they are in Lincoln- shire. 356. But you still think that it will do so ; and so strong is your opinion upon that, that you would not introduce any relaxation of the law in those districts? — I would not ; indeed I think it would be most mischievous. 357. Chairman.'] In those districts where you have found that the operation of the new law has not raised nominally the amount of wages, have you not found that it has very much increased the employment of labourers ? — Very much in- deed, to a very great extent. 358. Has it not had the effect of making that employment, which used to be precarious, much more constant? — Certainly. 2,59. Has it not given much more employment to the indifferent members of the family ? — Decidedly. 360. If that has been the case to some extent, must it not have had the effect of increasing the means of the labourers' subsistence ? — Yes. 361. And ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838). n ■,6i And therefore, even in districts where the nominal rate of wages would E.Guh^n^. not appear to have increased, if the amount of employment has very much h^creased, and the employment is much more constant, are not those advantages 9 February 3 "antamount to a rise in the rate of wages ?-Decidedly ; I have heard overseers in Oxfordsliire state that thev had scarcely a good labourer left that the system which was pursued of making up their wages had so far made the men worthless, that they have not a good labourer left; I remember m one of the last parishes that I was in in Oxfordshire, and the reason that it was one of the last was this, I had happened to form two or three of the first unions which were formed in the kingdom; Abingdon was the first ; on going to Abingdon to form the union, we first took in a smaller number of parishes than we afterwards found the work- house would hold ; it was not at first known what number of persons would come into the workhouse ; there might be 300 or 500 ; an addition to the union was afterwards made of parishes left for the purpose; this addition took place after the union had been in operation 12 months, and on going into one of the parishes which was so added to the union, the overseer said, "I am very glad to see you, we had got to a pretty pass in our parish." " What do you mean .^ ' Last year (we are a little better this year) m.en came into the rick-yards half-a-dozen at a time, and they used only three words, " Work, money, or hre ; ' that was the only lang-uap-e they used. „ mi ^ m .. c ■f62 Mr Scrape.] What did they mean by " Fire ? "—That they would set fire to the 'man s ricks. I said, " Pray tell me, what did you do?" " Do, says the man " I was not to have my ricks burnt, so 1 gave them money ; it did not all come out of my own pocket." If my memory serves me rightly, this was in tlie parish of B- in Oxfordshire. :^63. Mr. Freshjidd.'] Their first object was to obtain work ?— Yes, to obtain work • but thev knew the man could not find them work. ■^6a hovAJolm RiLssell.-] What year was this in?— It mig'ht be the end of 1835 • the Poor Law Amendment Act passed in 1834 ; it would be at the end of 1835 -OK Mr Freshfield.] In the case of the Nottingham Union you applied the task-work test from a conviction that it was not necessary to apply the workhouse test ?— Because we had no longer the workhouse test to apply, and we were obliged then to apply the next best test. 366. Have you not spoken of Mansfield ? — Yes. 367. In that case you were satisfied that the workhouse test was not necessary ? —Oh no I beo- your pardon ; the new workhouse was not then built ; at Mans- field we iiad only an imperfect old workhouse, and we had not the means of apply- ing the workhouse test. , . ,- i • *i 368. But at Nottingham you did apply the task-work .^— \ es, as bemg the next best. , r ^ - -vr 369. Did you find it difficult to obtain work for the men.--— Yes. 370 Suppose a district in which you were perfectly satisfied that the work- house test was not necessary, and the people were disposed to vvork, but it was impossible to apply the task-work test, would you refuse relief to able-bodied labourers who could not get work, unless they went into the workhouse ?~i ou say, if I was satisfied that the workhouse test was not necessary ; but I must have some test to satisfy me of that. ^ , ^ , ■i-i In the case of Nottingham you were satisfied, from the pressure on com- merce, that these men would work if there had been work for them to do?— Yes. ^■70 Was there not a period in which the task-work test was applied at Not- tincrham when the workhouse was not full ?-No, we did not employ them then in task-work. • 1 1 5 v S7^ Was there not room for 970, and you had but 920 in the house?— Yes; allow me to refer to the book; we had 971 in the workhouse, we now have only 923, consequently the workhouse is not full; there were 102 out-doors, and they are heads of families ; their families amount to about 500 people, we have got room only for 50 ; how are we to provide in the workhouse for these 500 people who are out of doors ? , , 1 374. To the extent of the 50 who are not sent into the workhouse, you are applying the task- work test in preference?- It is always considered convenient to have rooms in the workhouse ior extreme cases ; many cases may occur in which it would be extremely inconvenient, if the workhouse was quite full. " •xiK. Do von consider that the workhouse test is the only safe one ?--\ es. •''•{..S. B 2 376. And 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Guiinn, Esq. 3^6. And you have given as a reason, that if there be a superabundance of labourers, and an unwillingness on the part of the labourer to go into the vvork- 9 February 1838. house, he will go farther a- field tor work ? — Yes. 377. Do you think it no evil to break down the links of society, and to make a man leave his home and relations ? — -I conceive in such a case you have a choice of two evils ; if the man stays, and is supported at the public expense, his so doing tends to involve others, who are only just above him, in the same ruin, and thus sweeps down others to the same level as himself; the support of these again acts upon others, until all would become in time alike ; I cannot think it much of an evil, going a distance to seek out employment. 378. Is not one of the strongest feelings of hostility against this measure founded on the fact of the aged being forced into the workhouse ? — The belief that they are to be forced in. 379. Are you aware that by the 27th section of this Act relief cannot be given to aged persons by the magistrates, unless they find tliat those persons are so aged or infirm of body as to be wholly unable to work ? — I am. 380. Is there not an opinion in circulation that aged persons are not to be relieved out of the workhouse? — Yes. 381 . Unless they are wholly unable to work ? — Yes. 382. Have the Commissioners taken any means of circulating the opinion which they entertain on that subject, in order to counteract that general impression which prevails? — Yes, I think they have taken the greatest possible means; they have despatched Assistant-commissioners all over the country, whose business it is to explain the views of the Commissioners and remove these misconceptions, and they have issued rules to every locality under their control, allowing the guardians a discretionary power in respect of relief to aged or infirm persons. 383. Mr. Sa-opeJ] Upon the first formation of the union, are there not certain rules as to the relief of all paupers ? — Yes. 384. Is it not one of the first things that the Commissioners do, to recommend that a rule should be passed for giving out-door relief to aged persons r — Yes ; as regards myself, when I have gone down to any district, all the overseers of the parishes have been invited to attend a sort of public meeting. Before the forma- tion of the union, I have endeavoured to explain the matter to them at these meet- ings, and to remove the misconception that the old people are not to be ordered into the workhouse. I have at these meetings constantly had the rules of the Commissioners in my hand, and I have explained them to the parties present, and told them that those are the rules, and that the rules of their union when foimed ■would be as nearly similar as the locality and circumstances would permit. 385. Relative to that clause which gives power to two magistrates to order relief out of the house to aged persons, is that carried much into operation ? — No, I have never seen an instance of it. 386. Do you know the reason of that ? — Yes, the reason is that there has never been any need of it, there being sufficient relief given without such application to magistrates. 387. Is it according to the spirit of the law, when the magistrates make an order in consequence of that power, that the board of guardians should have the power to alter the amount of relief? — Decidedly. 388. You conceive that it is not so? — Yes, the guardians are and should be the ultimate judges. 389. May not the magistrates have ceased to act, because their orders are totally superseded by the little portion of money or food, partly food and partly money, given by the board of guardians ? — In my district such a case has never happened, that the board of guardians have thought that what the magistrate have ordered has been too much, because I am not aware that any order has ever been made by magistrates in my district. 3(}0. Do you not conceive that that clause amounts to an appeal to the board of guardians from the magistrates ? — That is a mere matter of opinion on the spirit of a clause of a dry Act of Parliament. 391. Is it not the fact, that if a magistrate was to order 2 5. Qd. a week, it is in the power of the guardians to say " No, we will only give you 1 s." ? — Yes it is. 302. Lord John Russell.'] You said, as I understood you, that this labour test which you applied at Nottingham was at a period of distress? — Yes. 393. You are not aware of any test, except the workhouse test, that would be an equivalent, or nearlv an equivalent to the labour test, in time of distress, to :, ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 13 to the agricultural districts ?— No, I think no other sufficient test could be JS. Guhon, Esq. applied. . ^ ~ „ 394. Then, comparin<5 the Poor Law Amendment Act in the manufacturing 9 February leats. districts and the agricultural districts, it is so far more advantageous in the manu- facturing districts, that there is a kind of labour test which can be applied, besides the workhou,se test? — In cases of emergency the labour test can be applied ; but I do not think the labour test a slight test to those who are unused to the labour of digging, and whose hands are tender from the nature of their usual employment. 395. But in the manufacturing districts you have two tests ; first, the work- house test, which is as useful in the manufacturing districts as it is in the agricul- tural ; and secondly, in periods of distress, the workhouse being full, you have that which you found very equivalent then, although it would not be equivalent in an agricultural district? — Yes, precisely so. 396. Is it true, or not, upon the whole, that the Poor Law Amendment Act is as applicable to manufacturing as to agricultural districts? — Yes, I conceive, quite as applicable in the one as the other. 397. Are there any circumstances in which there is a disadvantage in applying it to' manufacturing districts or towns, which do not operate in our agricultural districts? — I am not aware of any thing whatever rendering it less applicable to the one than to the other. I conceive both the principle and the spirit of the Poor Law Amendment Act to be applicable equally to manufacturing and agri- cultural districts. It is generally thought that the rigid workhouse system is necessarily to be enforced under the Poor Law Amendment Act under all circum- stances ; but I conceive the power of the Commissioners is so flexible that it enables them to meet any extraordinary difficulty, by applying other tests, such as the labour test, which may be applicable to one locality, though not to another. 398. Mr. Wakley.'] Have you any other districts ?— Sheffield and Mansfield ; the "population round Mansfield is a manufacturing population. 399. Have you had any recourse to the workhouse test there? — There is a large stone yard adjoining the workhouse at Sheffield, in which they employ the people. 400. In the case of a time of such distress as you have seen at Nottingham durino- the past year, and supposing the trade should be depressed, could you, by any possibility, apply the test of labour at Sheffield ? — I conceive that we could, decidedly.' I consider Sheffield, of all other localities, renders the greatest facility for that purpose of any that I have seen. 401. Do you not suppose that a large manufacturing community which may have no peculiar facility in employing the poor, would have a great difficulty in applying the test of labour, out-door labour ? — Of course 1 conceive there may be greater difficulty in one locality than another; but, as I have said before, the facilities of Shefiield for that purpose, from its localities, are very great. It may be applied more or less advantageously every where. 402. You have seen no instance in your experience, where it could not be pos- sible to apply that test ? — I have not. 403. Mr. Scrope.'\ I think you mentioned that in Mansfield you experienced difficulty ? — Yes. 404. Did you get over the difficulty?— The procuring labour at which to set the men to work was not the only difficulty we had to contend with at Mansfield. At Mansfield, under the old law, they had employed the people in manufacturing hosiery, and maintained them out of the parish purse, and they were very anxious to resort to this same mode of employing the people again. That was such an interlerence with the regular course of labour, and was considered so detrimental to the poor man, as having a tendency to depress his wages, that the Commissioners refused to sanction it. If a quantity of goods is manufactured out of the parish purse when no profit is to be obtained, and indeed when they must be manufactured to a direct loss, or else the manufacturers would manufac- ture them themselves, when trade gets a little better these goods are forced into the market, and the market price of goods and the price of wages are borne down by this false system of manufacture. The Commissioners refused to permit that system, and they then made a subscription, which they were pleased to term a voluntary rate, but it was collected according to the assessment, as far as they can collect it ; that has been a great inconvenience in our way in obtaining labour, 138. B 3 and 14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E G 1 F- ^"*^ ^* ^^ ^^° taken off the hands of the board of guardians a considerable num- " ' ber of persons who would otherwise have stood in need of employment and relief. 9 Februnry 1838. 4^5. Chairman.'^ Is that voluntary rate collected now? — No, it is done away with. 406. Why is it done away with ? — Because the trade is a great deal better, and it is no longer required. 407. Mr. .Scro/je.] I wish to know whether there was any out-door labour to be obtained at IMansfield, except on the public high roads? — No; we could not obtain any other. 408. Labour by task-work of a public nature is the only description of labour, you think, would be applicable to a manufacturing district? — Yes. 409. No manufacturing work? — No, certainly not. 410. Had you any difficulty in finding that the people with whom you had to deal had resolved to endeavour to employ the poor in manufacturing? — Yes, we had ; Mansfield is a gravel country entirely, and materials for the roads are obtained very readily, and we could therefore not set them to stone-breaking and things of that kind, but we could have set the people to have cut down a hill if we had not met with this opposition. 411. You think that generally all cases of works of this public character might be beneficially resorted to ? — Yes, I have no doubt of it. 412. As you have expressed a strong opinion as to that test in agricultural districts, allow me to inquire if that is not disproved by Mr. Whateley applying that labour test in the parish of Cookham } — I do not admit it is disproved by the account of the labour test given at Cookham ; I think Mr. Whateley began with work, having his workhouse at his back ; he resorted to that workhouse as much as the labour test, and afterwards abandoned the labour test to a very consider- able extent ; he got rid of a considerable number of the idle, and he applied the workhouse test as strictly as the Commissioners do ; he was enabled to act upon the system of labour from the smallness of the scale, and the workhouse enabled him to deal properly with those to whom the labour was inapplicable. 413. But still, with your workhouse at your back, in the case of an agricul- tural union, you would under no circumstance admit the labour test? — I would not indeed, whilst I could avoid it. 414. Mr. Wakky.'] Have you any knowledge of the savings bank at Exeter? — No, I stated I had been informed of the fact which I mentioned. 415. Will you be kind enough to state to the Committee, if it had been com- municated to you that 65,000/. stood in the savings bank at Exeter which had been paid in by labouring people whose wages were only 7*. a week, whether you would believe the statement? — That would depend upon the person from whom the communication was received. 41 (k From your knovvledge of labouring people, and their habits, do you believe that they might effect such a saving as to enable them to pay that large sum of money into the savings bank, although their wages did not exceed 7*. a •week ? — I think it possible that they paid a part of it. 41 7. You have also been asked whether the tendency of the new Poor Laws has been to increase the demand for labour; has it? — Yes, to increase it. 41 8. Do you consider that a labouring man ought to work more than from six in the morning to six in the evening, six days in the week ? — I think a labouring man is the best judge as to how long he should work. 41 Q. Do you consider that a labouring man ought to work longer than from six in the morning to six in the evening during six days in the week ? — That is really a question which 1 think ought to be left to the poor man himself, as he is the best judge ; what might be proper for one man might not be proper for another as reo'ards labour ; if you were to ask me, for instance, what time 1 should be em- ployed on my business, it would not follow, because I liked it, or because a parti- cular portion of time was proper for me, that it would be proper for my next colleague. Each person, I conceive, is the best judge of the time it is proper for himself to be employed. 420. You are not prepared to say whether a man who has been employed 12 hours a day is employed sufficiently long? — I am quite prepared to say it is a fair time ; nevertheless I do not think 1 am the proper party to say how long a labouring man should be employed. 421. Mr. Vi//icr.s.] Do not the agricultural labourers who are employed by the iob, work more than 1'2 hours a day ? — Yes, ^ ' 400. Mr. ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 15 "422. Mr. Waklei/.] During six days of the week? — Yes, decidedly. 423. Does your answer apply to any particular occupation ? — No ; in some occupations tliey do, and some not. 424. To what period did your answer refer, when you said the farmers could hot get their work e.\ecuted unless there was an influx of labourers from Ireland? — Harvest time. 425. For how many years would that answer embrace ? — For how many years past, do you mean? 426. Yes ? — !My information does not apply to one, two or three years, but applies generally; for instance, I mention the case of a Mr. D., a large farmer, residing at VV., in the Louth Union : he occupies, I believe, rather above 4,000 acres of land. He told me distinctly that he paid several hundred pounds a year to Irish labourers, and if it was not for them that he could not get his harvest in, nor could he be able to cultivate any thing like the same quantity of land that he otherwise could. 427. How do you reconcile that statement that there is such a demand beyond the supply with the statement you have made, that in Oxfordshire the labourers went into the farm-yards, saying, " Work, money, or fire?" — Because the men had at that time a right to resort to the parish purse, and that very right tended to keep them at home, choosing to be maintained out of the parish purse rather than go a greater distance for work. 428. You say, although there was such a great demand for labour, yet those men threatened those premises should be fired ? — Yes ; because they said they had a right out of the parish purse for assistance from the parish to which they belonged. 429. Chairman.'] Was there not this additional circumstance, that the men con- sidered that they had a right to be paid out of the parish fund without the condition of hard work ? — Yes, and there is nothing peculiar in men liking idleness. 430. Mr. Vi/liers.'] Does that statement that you have made with reference to Oxfordshire apply to harvest time or the winter ? — No, that did not refer to the harvest at all. 431. Mr. Wakley.] During a series of years your information has led you to believe that it is impossible for the work on the farms of England to be done by the workmen of England ? — No ; I beg to correct that. 432. What was your statement with regard to the wolds of Lincolnshire? — As regarded the wolds of Lincolnshire, that in that locality there were not sufficient labourers to do the labour of that locality at harvest. 433. You went from that locality to Berkshire and Oxfordshire, and stated that labour was 12.s. in Lincolnshire, and 8 *. in Oxfordshire and Berkshire ? — Yes. 434. And you believed the tendency was to raise labour to that higher point? —Yes. 435. What ground had you for entertaining that opinion, when you know the dread which the work-people feel with respect to the poor-house, and that they also know they have no other alternative between the low amount of wages and the workhouse ? — I do not know that they have that dread. 436. In what way are a man and his wife and five or six children to seek labour at a distance from where he resides ? — I do not see how it is to follow that a man with a wife and six children should be compelled to seek labour at a distance. Suppose the married man was to have the preference of the labour at home, and the young man was to seek labour elsewhere; suppose there is a parish with 20 married and 20 single men, that is 40, and there be work for 35 men; of course the five would tend to depress them all. If a man, with his wife and five children, came to a board of guardians to apply for relief, one of the 20 married, they would order him into the workhouse with his family, and the expense of their maintenance would be so considerable that some of the employers would consider whether it would not be better to employ that man than a single man, and then they would let the single man beat out for himself. 437. Suppose the single man out of employment, what would be offered to him ? — The workhouse or the lower wages, and if he did not choose to take the lower wages, he would go and seek out for higher. 438. What wages do you think a single man would consent to take, rather than go into one of your union workhouses ?^That is a difficult question to answer ; 1 s. a day, or Gi. a week. 138. B4 439. Clutirmaii.'] E, Gulson, Esq. 9 February 1838, if) MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E.-Gulion, Esq. 439- Clialrman.] Would tliat vary witli the disposition of the man? — Yes. 440. Mr. JVakley.'] Do you not know that there are a great many men who would 9 February 1838. ^^ke considerably less than 1 s. ? — No. 441. Do you think any person would consent to remain in a workhouse^ under your arrangement, unless he was in distress ? — I think it would be very improper he should. 442. Suppose in a workhouse you have dissolute and idle paupers, men of bad character, drunkards, and supposing also you have a number of men of good character who are not able to procure work, how would those men be situated with respect to the others ? — I cannot suppose that, because men of good character do not come into workhouses. 443. Do you mean to say that all the poor who are admitted into your work- house are bad characters? — We have very few able men. 444. I presume, as they are men of bad character, they are regulated by coercive means? — We do not adopt any coercive means, beyond what is necessary for order and regularity ; there are regular rules ; all must know the necessity for keeping to rules and regulations in a large establishment, and they know all the men who come in are subject to those regulations. 445. Have you superintended the building of any workhouse ? — Yes, many; 50. 446. Where are the windows of your workhouses ; can the inmates look out of the windows ? — Down-stairs or up-stairs. 447. Down-stairs? — Yes, I think so. Oh, yes, I know many where they can. 448. Are your workhouses built on one uniform plan? — Why, no, not uniform, because we have a great many architects employed in erecting these buildings, and each man has his own mode of building ; the shape is much the same ; but you cannot call it uniform in many respects. 449. Is it not the case in several of the unions, the windows are so situated that the inmates cannot look out?^ — Yes, up-stairs. 450. Why were they so constructed ? — I conceive there is no advantage in having them otherwise. The men or women are not allowed to remain in the lodging-room, except when they are in bed ; they go up-stairs, and go into the rooms to go to bed, get up in the morning, and do not remain in their lodging-rooms. It was a measure of economy. 451. Are you aware of any private houses so built? — I do not happen to know of a house so built. 452. Have you ever seen private houses in England with the windows so con- structed ? — In our private houses some of the lodging-rooms occasionally are so built, and have a parapet wall coming close up against the windows. 453. Chairman.] Do you not know many private houses, the rooms in which servants sleep, where the windows are so high that they cannot look out ? — Yes, I have known that, where the parapet wall ran so high that I could not see out. 454. Mr. JVakley.] You say the up-stairs rooms ; do you know of no union workhouse where the paupers are unable to look out of the sitting-rooms — their day-room ? — No, I do not ; I am hesitating, trying to recollect. I was trying to recollect, but I do not. 45.5. You cannot undertake to say that none of the union workhouses have been so constructed that persons sitting in the day-rooms cannot see out? — No, I can- not say, as I am only acquainted with that district which is under my own charge and superintendence ; nor have I such memory that I can tell you exactly the position of the windows in all. 456. You have erected 50 ? — Yes, I have ; because I have been in charge of two districts, Oxfordshire and Berkshire, and a part of Gloucestershire; and since that I had Lincolnshire, Nottinghamshire, and a part of Derbyshire and York- shire west riding. 457. You have stated that the only inducement the rate-payer has to increase the wages of the labourer is, because his maintenance with his family in the work- house would exceed the single able-bodied man's? — No, I have not said that is the only inducement, because I think there are others ; if he is made more com- fortable and more able to do his work, the better he is treated, and the better he serves his master. 458. Had he not an opportunity of doing that before the new law? — Out of his own purse he had. 459- Why ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 17 459. Why not now?— Because the allowance system was then in ex- £.Gu&on, Esq. 460,* Was not the allowance system a fault of the magistrates' ?— It commenced 9 February 1838. by the Speenham-land Act of Parliament. 461. You stated in your evidence yesterday, there was very little difference between the present law and the old practice at Nottingham ?— In the parish of St. Mary, Nottingham, there was very little difference. 462. 'You gave out-door relief to able-bodied men?— Yes, during the late 463. The system in Nottingham is precisely the system which would have been in operation in that place under the old system?— No, I conceive not. 464. Chairma7i.'\ In what particular?—! do not mean under the reformed system of Nottingham ; St. Maiy was similar before I went there to what it is now ; but I refer to Nottingham as it was before that system was introduced. 465. Before the reformed system was introduced ?— Yes. 466. Mr. JVakley.'] The system of Coventry ?— Yes. 467. And which you made your hobby ? — Yes. 468. There are three parishes in that union ?— Yes. 469. Did you produce a great reduction in the rates?— A great reduction was effected whilst I was in office ; there were others in office with me. 470. What office did you hold ? — ^That of director, 471. How many were there ?— Eighteen. 472. Is that still a union of itself ?— Yes, a union for rating and settlement, and the Commissioners cannot break it. 473. Are they as perfect as they are under your system ?— Will you allow me to mention the case of Coventry on that point; when I first commenced at Coventry as a director, I found the people paid by favour and affection rather than according to their several necessities ; I found that people in a street where a parti- cular par'ty had influence received much more than others equally necessitous ; and all this sort of irregularity going on, we introduced the workhouse system to a con- siderable degree, and put corn-mills into employment ; the rates had been raised up to 20,000 /., and they were reduced to 9,000 /. ; the workhouse was classified, put into good order and discipline. So it continued for some years ; but I have had a letter from one of my coadjutors lately, stating that he had been over the Coventry workhouse ; that filth and dirt prevailed, and tliat there had been 64 deaths from cholera in Coventry workhouse. 474. Under the system which you managed so well? — I beg your pardon; nothing of the kind could have occurred, if it had not been for the want of a con- trolling power. 475. But I presume the law prescribed the same controlling power then as now ? — Yes, but the controlling power was then in the directors. 476. Then the fault was in the men, and not in the system ? — I conceive the system ou^ht to be such that it could not fail from such a cause. 477. Is the new Poor Law system in force at Coventry? — No. 478. Mr. Miles.] You left the poor-rates reduced to 9,000/. ?— Yes. 479. Have they since advanced or retrograded ? — I am not aware of the pre- sent amount. 480. During the time you acted as director was there any peculiar manufac- turino- distress?— Yes, what I may term a down-hill manufacture for many years; and I conceive, during the period I was in office as a director, for two years, the trade was in an exceedingly depressed state. 481. Will you describe to the Committee what the old law was?— The old law was a Local Act of Parliament, and it was similar in some respects to that which the Commissioners adopted under the Poor Law Amendment Act. 482. Was any great opposition shown?— Very great; so much so, that I have been personally threatened by a man with a knife, and have been otherwise sub- ject to personal abuse for the part I took in regulating and adopting the system which was introduced. 483. As far as you were concerned, do you think it was very convenient for private individuals to carry out such a system in such a locality on their own authority r— Certainly not ; and I have heard and could mention the name of shopkeepers in Coventry who have stated that they dare not do that which was right, for they feared, if they did, it would be from a hundred to a thousand pounds out of their pockets. 138. c 484- Is iS MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Gulsim,hsi[. 4^^ jg it your opinion, although under your superintendence and that of the 7"! ~ other directors with you the rate was greatly diminished in Coventry, that greater 9 e rudry i 3 . ^gnefits would have arisen if it had been placed under the jurisdictionof the Commissioners ? — Yes, decidedly ; taking it out of the hands of the present body, they being private individuals, and putting it under the control of the Commissioners. 485. Did you, speaking generally, inspect the parish books previous to your undertaking the office of director at Coventry ?- — Yes. 486. Did you find some extraordinary ^charges in those books '? — Yes, irre- gular charges ; relief was administered in an irregular way. 487. Were there other expenses charged than those which ought to have been charged ? — I have no hesitation in saying, that the parish purse was converted indirectly to election purposes. 488. To any great amount ?— Yes. 489. To what amount ? — Some thousands in one particular year (I do not mean to say regularly each year) ; but I can say that I can point out years when the directors were chosen from political motives, and nearly all of a party; I have gone through the poll-book, and if I have found a man receiving a great amount of relief, I have known on which side he voted. 490. Mr. ]Miles.~\ What accommodation had you in the workhouse ? — I do not think I can speak correctly to that, because we never had it full ; but, as far as my memory goes, it might have been made capable of containing 400 or 500 ; it had been an old convent, and purchased for the purpose. 491. You there adopted the workhouse test? — Yes, I and my colleagues did ; I wish particularly to guard myself against the charge of egotism ; I was greatly assisted by others ; we did it together. 492. Did you at all, while in office, apply the labour test with the workhouse test? — We did, the corn-mill. 493. What effect had it in reducing the paupers ? — I found it by no means effectual. 494. Mr. Liddel!.] Did you give them wages for working the corn-mills? — Yes. 495. High or low? — Why, it depended upon circumstances; if it was a man with one child, we allowed him to work one day, if he had two children, we allowed him to work two days, and so on ; but 1 conceive as that test allowed him to spend his leisure time as he pleases, that that test is a very poor one. 496. Is it not an etlective test? — No, I have heard a man say, " Oh, two days work, and a hare will do for me ; " if he only works two days, he goes out poaching the remainder. 497. Do you think, from your experience of Coventry, that any local manage- ment would be effectual without individual superintendence ? — Certainly not. 498. Mr. Scrope.] The objections you have urged against the labour test do not apply to the employment of men with large families who would be employed throughout the whole week, and who would have no time to poach or improper employments ? — It does not in any way apply ; but I have endeavoured to explain before why the labour test was less desirable with that class than the workhouse test. 499. Mr. Fielden.'\ I think I gather from what you have stated that you think any poor law should be so administered as to have a tendency to raise the rate of wages, and not to depress them ? — Certainly. 500. You are Assistant-commissioner under the Commissioners at Somerset House, and of course well acquainted with their rules and regulations and orders? — Yes, I hope so. 501. I think you stated to us yesterday that you had never known an instance of a poor man being requested to have his furniture sold before relief was extended to him ? — 1 did ; allow me to say how far I conceive that both the spirit of the Poor Law Amendment Act and the rules of the Commissioners would extend in that respect. To put a strong case, I will suppose a poor man fell down (Mr. Rothschild) in the street and broke his leg^, he having a lump of gold in his pocket to pay for his wants, I conceive it would be the duty of the officer of the district in which he fell down and broke his leg to take care of Mr. Rothschild until other means could be provided for him. 502. That is what you would call a case of emergency ? — Yes. 503. That is not an answer to the question I put ; the question is this : I think you stated to us yesterday that you had never known an instance of a poor man ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1S3S.) 19 num being- requested to have his furniture sold Ijcfore relief was extended to him ? E. Gulsnn, \\si\. — Certainly not ; and to mention another case : I was present otdy a fortni-iht or — three weeks ago at Bourne in Lincolnshire, and a widow having two children 9 February 1838. applied for relief, and the relieving officer stated that he had visited her and made inquiry into her circumstances, and that he found that her furniture was so great in quantity, so good in quality, and so far superior to that of many of the rate-payers themselves, and extended itself to silver spoons and so on, that he conceived, because it was so superior, she was not entitled to relief, and the guardians decided that she was not, not on the ground of her having furniture, but on the ground of her furniture being so good in quantity as to show that she was not in necessity ; I mention that as an illustration, 504. I think you said yesterday, if any such practice prevailed in the district of which you have the superintendence, by any of the boards of guardians, (you were speaking of Nottingham at the time,) you should discourage it? — Yes, I should certainly. 505. You are aware that there has been an instructional letter issued by the Commissioners, directing those who have the conducting of the Poor Law, on this question. The letter is published in the Third Report of the Poor Law Commis- sioners, and it may have been published before; in paragraph 67 in this letter I read thus : " VVhere the pauper is the head of a family, and he declares tliat lie has no work, and proves satisfactorily that he can obtain none, either in his own or in any of the parishes within a reasonable distance, he may be offered tempo- rary relief within the workhouse until he can get some kind of work ; relief wholly or chiefly in kind being given in the interval to the family, to prevent the necessity of immediately selling off their goods and breaking up the cottage establishment. The pauper should be distinctly told that such an arrangement can only be temporary, in order that his wife and family may seek work for him ; and that the strict workhouse principle requires that all the members of a family claiming relief should enter the house, and give up their property for the benefit of the parish r" — That is the law. 506. And you as Assistant-commissioner are required to administer it? — Yes, according to the spirit of my instructions. 507. Chairman.] What law ? — The common law. 508. Is it any provision in the new Poor Law ? — None whatever ; the common law. 509. Mr. Fieldcn.] You think that some severe test should be applied, in order to prevent imposition ? — Yes, certainly. 510. And that test you view according to circumstances? — Yes. 51 1. That in an agricultural district, where the workhouse will contain the ap- plicants, you put them there ? — Rather this ; we apply the workhouse test so long as we can in all districts ; but in the manufacturing districts, where emergencies arise which do not arise in agricultural districts, we cannot in such emergency make the workhouse test fully applicable to meet such a pressure as that which has lately occurred in Nottingham ; it is not because (and I wish that to be fully understood) we think the workhouse test less applicable, that it is not fully carried out, but for want of means ; emergencies may arise in manufacturing districts where the workhouse test no longer fully serves the purpose, and we cannot apply it for want of room and means. ,512. Allow me to ask you whether you are aware of the test which is to be applied under this instructional letter at page 86 ? — That is at page 88 ; I will read it : " In all cases which must hereafter arise, it will be necessary to adhere strictly to the provisions of the 43d of Elizabeth, in administering to ' the necessary relief of the lame, impotent, old, blind, and such other among them being poor and notable to work,' as well as in relieving the children and the able-bodied ; by the words of that statute you are only entitled to relieve those capable of working, ' who have )io means to maintain them.' " That is the point. 513. No, that is not the case? — " None, therefore, are legally entitled to relief who have any property or any means, or who are not in a state of absolute desti- tution, and in danger of perishing for want if relief be withheld. The further descriptive words of the enactment for setting to work ' all persons using no ordi- dinary and daily trade of life to get their living by,' must be taken to exclude from relief all cases of persons who are in work, and ' who do use an ordinary and daily trade of life ;' in short, to prohibit all relief in aid of wages." ij^i. C 2 514. Then 20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Guhon, Esq. ^j^ Then the rule is, I think you Will agree with me, to deny all relief to any ^ person who has any means ? — That was the common law of the land prior to the 9 February 1838. p^g^j^g ^f ^^^ Poor Law Amendment Act. 515. Do you not act on these instructions from the Commissioners, and do not the guardians act upon them ? — Yes, to the best of their discretion. 516. Are they not subject to penalties if they disregard the orders of the Com- missioners ?— I am not aware that the Poor Law Amendment Act points out any penalties upon guardians. 517. Does it not? — I am not aware of it. 518. Mr. Miles.'] Do you wish to alter a former answer ? — I am not aware that I ever used the word " severe test" ; I say that some certain test is necessary. 519. Mr. Fielden.] Are you of opinion that the test is not a severe one which requires an honest, industrious, hard-labouring man, who by accident or by some revulsion in trade is thrown out of employment, to leave his family and to go into the workhouse, and the same with regard to the labourers on the land, for I take it that this direction in the 67th paragraph was intended to apply to labourers on the land, and that such a labourer who wants relief must go into the workhouse, and his wife and children must be left at home, or running in some direction to seek for employment for him ; in that case, is it your opinion that the workhouse is not a severe test ? — Whatever the test is, I conceive that a man brings that test upon himself by not providing at the time that he has an opportunity to provide against such a contingency. 520. Have you never known a case of an industrious man against whom no complaint would have been brought, either of want of diligence or of non-appli.. cation to his work, who has been placed in those circumstances? — Although the man may have been diligent and industrious, and in every respect a good labourer, I have had no means of ascertaining how far he has endeavoured to provide against such contingency ; and the workhouse, I conceive, is the only means by which, as I said before, you can test the provident habits of the man. 521. Take a labouring man of Devonshire, as you have alluded to Devonshire, with his 75. a week, a married man with two or three children; how can he by any means lay up any part of his savings? — He is the best judge of the means by which he can do it. 522. What is your opinion of what this man is to save out of his wages to pro- vide against the time of scarcity of work ? — I acknowledge, most distinctly, that 7*. is very low wages for a man, and lower, I think, than they should be ; never-' theless I conceive that the operation of the Poor Law Amendment Act is to place him in a better condition. 523. You have stated that you never did know a case of this sort? — I never did, because I have not the means, as I said before, of knowing whether the man has been provident or. otherwise. 524. But you have stated to the Committee that you have had extensive know- ledge in the working of the Poor Law Bill, both the old and the new, and that you made it a hobby to bring about an improved system in Coventry ? — Yes. 525. Must not that as a consequence have brought you within the means of makino- inquiries of the poor people themselves what their wages were, how they had been treated, whether they had been denied relief when they were deservinf]^ of it ; has not one opportunity been afforded to you, in all your experience, of ascertaining that a man had been denied relief when he ought to have had it ? — No, certainly not; the wages in Coventry were not 7-^- a week. 526. Have vou never known the weavers in Coventry when they could not get 7*. a week ? — Not if they were employed ; I never knew such a time. 527. Have you ever known an industrious man who was out of employment and could not get 5*. a week? — Often. 528. Have you ever known an industrious man that did not receive relief, when he was deserving of it, in Coventry ? — Never; he has alwaysjeceived relief either in or out of the workhouse. 529. Then the poor laws were so administered at Coventry during your ex- perience, that the poor man did obtain relief on all occasions when his wants deserved it? — Either in or out of the workhouse. 530. Now with respect to the test which you have supplied, and one which you are recjuired to act up to, as I understand this paragraph, that is No. 70 in the same letter ; read the first four lines of that paragraph ? — This is under the head of " Preparatory Relief." 531. Chairman.'] ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 21 ^31 Chairman.'] That is relief before the workhouse is erected, and before the E. Guhon, Esq . final rules of the Commissioners are put into execution ?-Certamly, before the board of guardians have the opportunity or the possibdity of putting them into 9 iebruarj 3 execution. ... i ^ i • • 530 This, therefore, has no reference to the law when it is in complete adminis- tration ?— Certainly not, it is under the head of " Preparatory Relief ;' for the youno- and able-bodied applicants task-work should be provided ; relief should only be given in a form which none but the really destitute of this class of appli- cants will accept ; to this end the parish must be made the hardest task-master and the worst pay- master. , , 813. Then, in reality, it is carrying out the spirit of the law of Queen Elizabeth, which has to a certain extent, up to the year 1796, prevailed in this country through all that period of time ?— I conceive it to be just so. 814. Chairma7i.] Have you much acquaintance with those benefit societies ; are you conversant with their general rules of practice ?-I think I have made myself acquainted with the course which the poor pursue towards them ; but 1 am not perhaps a good authority as to the law of them. 815. Do you happen to know what principle the labouring class adopt with respect to rehef from their benefit societies ?-They vary very much. ^ 810. Do J^O. G 44 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE r /-,;„, T7=„ 816. Do vovi know whether in those societies tlie condition of a memher receivino- relief, or who is living without work, is never allowed to be so eligible 1" '-\bruaiy 1838. as that of a member living by his own labour? — I know that that is the case in some of those societies. 817. Do you know that in some the allowances are so adjusted as to make it the interest of every member not to receive relief from the society so long as he can earn his usual wages ? — Yes, I do. 818. Do you know whether the average of those allowances so made by the benefit society exceeds one-third of the average earnings of his wages ? — No, I believe they do not generally ; as far as my own experience goes, certainly not. 819. The principle, therefore, of making the situation of a person living upon relief less ehgible than that of an independent labourer, is one upon which operatives act themselves in their own societies ? — Most decidedly so. 820. Mr. Fielden.} Do the poor in Sheffield and in Nottingham contribute to the poor-rates ? — Yes, certainly. 821. Do you know how many of those who, during this severe pressure for a number of years, had been paying rates, and who, since this pressure, have been subjected to this harsh test ? — I conceive that it is property that pays the poor- rate, and not the person, and therefore that the property which they have occupied has paid the poor-rate certainly ; but whether one man was in it, or another, it would be the property that paid the poor-rate. 822. They came to the men who occupied the property? — Certainly they did ; but then it is assessed upon the property, and it comes out of the landlord's pocket, and not the tenant's. 823. Has the man who pays the rate any other means of paying it than out of his wages ? — But then it eventually comes out of the landlord's pocket ; it is upon the property, and not upon the man ; for instance, if he had a house for which he paid 51. rent and 1/. poor-rate, if he did not pay the II. poor-rate, his house would be worth CZ. a year instead of 5/., and that 6/. he would pay to the landlord. 824. Does not the payment of those poor-rates come out of the earnings of the man who is called upon to pay ? — In the way that I have explained they do, but in no other. 82.5. But has the individual who is called upon to pay the rates any other means of meeting that demand than by the wages which he receives for his labour ? — He meets that just in the same way as he does the rent, and if he did not pay that rate, he would pay just so much more in rent. 826. Does not the rent go to the landlord, and does not the rate go to a com- mon fund for the relief of the poor ''. — It does. 827. Is there not a material distinction between the two cases, the one being for the landlord, and the other for providing a fund against want out of the poor-rates?— Yes, out of the property. 828. You have said that the man pays it out of wages ? — I say that he must pay for the place that he inhabits, and it is the property that pays rates, inasmuch as if he pays 5/. rent and ll. rate upon that, it is the property and not the man that pays. 829."Wliy do you draw such a conclusion ; explain that to the Committee? — Because I think that every member of the Committee must understand that the value of the property depends very much indeed upon the return that it would make, independent of all charges, and that those charges go eventually out of the landlord's; pocket, inasmuch as the property would be worth that much more if those charges were not paid elsewhere ; for instance, I will take your estate ; if your estate was free of tithe, it would be worth that much more rent to you ; if it is not free of tithe, there is a certain portion goes to the tithe- owner, a certain portion in rent, and it is just the same with property as regards the poor-rate. 830. But the application of the two properties, rents and rates, are very dif- ferent ? — Certainly. 831. I ask you again, whether a man who inhabits a house has any other means of meeting the demands upon him for rate than what arises from his labour ? — Certainly he has not, or for his rent either. 83-2. Then, having this demand made upon him out of the proceeds of his labour, is he not entitled to relief as a right when he becomes in distressed circumstances? — He is entitled to it to that extent which the law gives him, but ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 45 but not because he has paid rate, but because he is destitute ; the man who has E. Guhnn, K^3f^- G3 877. Mr. 48 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Gulsoti, Esq. 877. Mr. Scropc] Is it not consistent with your knowledge, that a very large proportion of the population of Lancashire have been introduced by immigration in 13 February 1838. tlie last 20 or 30 years? — Yes; Irish particularly, and indeed from all parts of the country. 878. Is it not true that .50,000 and upwards of Irish are in the neighbourhood of Manchester at present? — Yes. 879. Do you think it possible that the cotton trade could have advanced to its high position, if that county of Lancashire had been denied the introduction of foreign labour 1 — Most certainly not. 880. Are not the wages obtained at present there, on the average, as large fully as they were 30 or 40 years ago, before that great immigration took place ? — Decidedly. 881. Therefore the immigration, instead of being an injury, has been a benefit • to the native population of that district, as well as to strangers ? — Yes. 882. Mr. FieUkyi.~\ You have said that the wages now obtained are as high as they were 30 or 40 years ago ? — If history tells me true, they are. APPENDIX. ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. 1838. 49 APPENDIX. Sir, 14 February 1838. Obsehving thatsome verbal inaccuracies appear ia the printed copy of my evidence given before the Committee on the first day of my examination, I beg leave to point them out, and I shall feel obliged by their correction. I am, &c. N. Fazakerley, Esq. Chairman. (signed) E. Gulson. No. 23. For " years" read " months." 63. For " scale " read " mode." 77. For " Felkin's Remarks is the name of the title/' read " Felkin is the name of the author ; the title is Felkin's Remarks." 102. " For residing" read" visiting." 184. At the end of the answer, /or " it," read " for the case in future." SECOND REPORT FROM SELECT COMWIITEE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT; WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCi:. OrtUreil, by The House of Coniinoiis, to be Pi iuttd, 13 Febnittry 1838. 1:^8. T 11 I U D REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT; WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed, 14 February 1838. 140. [ n ] Luncs, 2"/° die Novevibrls, 1837, Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into tiie Administration of the Relief of the Poor, under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act, Ordered, That the Committee consist of Twenty-one Members : Lord John Russell. Mr. Ward. Mr. Fazakerley. Lord Viscount Howick. Mr. Richard Walker. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Poulett Scrope. Mr. Villiers. Mr. Baines. Mr. Miles (Somerset). Mr. Boiling. Mr. Law Hodges. Mr. Lister. Mr. Chichester. Sir Thomas Fremantle. Mr. Slaney. Mr. Barneby. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Liddell. Mr. John Fielden. Mr. Estcourt (Devizes). Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers and Records; Ordered, That Five be the Quorum of the Committee. Jovis, 8° die Ftbruarii, ^ 838. Ordered, That power be given to the Committee to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House. THE REPORT p. iii MINUTES OF EVIDENCE p. 1 [ iii ] R E P O R T. THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the Administration of the Relief of the Poor under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act ; and who were empowered to report the Minutes of tlie Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House : — TTAVE taken some (urther Evidence, which they have agreed to report to ■*- ^ The House. 14 February 1838. 140. [ iv ] WITNESS. Edward Gulson, Esq. ( 1 ) MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Mercurii, 14° die Fehruarii, 1838. MEMBERS present: Mr. Baines. Mr. Barneby. Mr. Bollinf;-. Mr. Estcourt. Mr. Fielden. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Hodges. Mr. Miles. Mr. P. Scrope. Mr. Slauey. Mr. Wakley. Mr. FAZAKERLEY in the Chair. Edward Gulson, Esq., again called in ; and further Examined. 883. Chairman.} IN answer to question 391. *' I« it not the fact, that if a E.G.U„,E. ,. magistrate was to order 2.. 6 rf. a week, it is m "je J^ower o t li^ guaich^^^^^^ ,, February 1838. sav? ' No, we will only give you Is.'" you have said, "Yes, it is ; do you mean to say thk it is in the discretionary power of the guardians, under such circum- stances, to give relief that would be inadequate to the mamtenance of an aged person ?-No, I think not; in 39«. I 1^^^^ stated that the guardians are and should be the the ultimate judges. . , . • t 884. If the guardians were to give relief altogether inadequate in such cases, a mere nominal sum for relief, in compliance with an order of the magistrates, should you not think that to be an evasion of the law ?-Not as the law stands 885. Be so good as to take in your hand the Second Annual Report of the PoorLaw Commissioners, and turn to page 528, being a letter from the Com- missioners to Mr. Weale, an Assistant-commissioner, and read the second para- graph ■ " The Commissioners consider that the guardians are the proper judges of the amount of relief to be afforded ; but if, in cases where rehef is actually necessary, they shall give merely nominal rehef, this is prima facie an mvasion , of the justices' orders, and the justices may proceed against the guardians for such evasion, and the question will then be raised, whether the pauper is pro- perly relieved or not. Relief only to the extent of a penny weekly would be virtually a non-compliance with the order ;" do you not consider that the words of that paragraph clearly intimate that the guardians would be guilty ot an offence cognizable by the law, if they were to give relief altogether inadequate to the necessities of the pauper ?-I do ; but I consider that the guardians, and not the magistrates, are to be the ultimate judges, subject to the superior decision ot a court of justice upon the merits of the case. „ ^ » 1 ^ 886. You are acquainted with the 27th section of the Poor Law Amendment j^qI ? Yes 887. Do you not consider that under that section the justices have an abso- lute power over the guardians to order them to give relief to people whom the justices consider wholly unable to work ?— I do, for tlie time being. ^ 888. You consider that the guardians have a discretion as to the amount of relief to be given, and the time for which the relief should be given^— 1 do, because I consider that the guardians, by the law, are the judges of their neces- sities, and the amount that they require for their subsistence ; that is my idea. 889 But if the justices under the 22d section of the Poor Law Amendment Act have an absolute power to order relief in such case, and if the Commissioners are right in their construction of the law in the paragraph which you have just read, does it not appear not only that the rehef must be given by the guardians, but that that rehef must be adequate ?-Yes, upon the merits of the case certainly ; but then my idea of the new law ot tlie case is this, that the guardians 140. A are MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Gulson, Esq. are to be the ultimate judges, not the magistrates, subject, if the magistrates choose to bring it before a superior court, to the decision of that superior court 14 February 1838. upon the merits. I will suppose, by way of illustration of my meaning, that an old person is brought before the guardians, and that they refuse relief, except in the workhouse, on the ground that she has means to support herself; she then goes to the magistrates, who are not of that opinion, and they order the guardians to give her 2s. 6d. a week ; the case comes back to the guardians, who reconsider it, and of course make an investigation into her circumstances, and they choose to adhere, upon the merits of the case, to their former decision ; my opinion is, that they have a right so to do, but that they are subject to a superior court upon the case. 8go. By the 27th section of the Poor Law Amendment Act it would appear that two justices have a power, under the provisions of that section, to order relief to an aged person ? — ^Yes. 891. Does it appear that they have any power to say what should be the amount of that relief ? — No. 892. The amount of the relief therefore is at the discretion of the guardians ? — I conceive so. 893. In exercising that discretion, would the board of guardians be at liberty to give relief to a person wholly unable to work, which should be altogether inadequate ? — Certainly not. 894. You consider therefore that the law stands thus, that under the 27th section the magistrates have the power to order relief, but that the guardians are to be the judges of what amount of relief the necessities of the party may require ? — I do, just that. 895. Does the law in those respects appear to you to be perfectly satisfactory ? — It does ; and, as a corroboration of that, I may state, that in my district and under my knowledge no case has ever gone from the board of guardians to the magistrates ; nor in my district am I aware of the magistrates having made a single order upon any such question. 896. You have already stated that the practice of the boards of guardians who come under your superintendence is to give relief to aged persons out of the workhouse ?- — Yes. 897. They are not in the habit of making difficulties upon that point ? — They are not. 898. Have you known them give relief in such cases which in your judgment was inadequate ? — Never ; I have known them give relief, which relief was more than the case required, in my opinion. 899. Is there any particular amount of relief given to the aged persons in your district? — The unions are so difierent in my district as to the time that they have been in operation, that the amount varies considerably ; and also as regards the price of fuel — in one part of my district for instance, it is a coal country, and coal may be had for nothing, comparatively, in fact, I believe, to the poor people, for really nothing, whilst in another part of my district it is very dear, and therefore the amount in actual money varies, although it does not vary relatively to the necessities of the poor person. 900. But speaking generally of those cases which have come under your observation, should you say that the amount of relief ordered by the boards of guardians to such persons as we have now alluded to, is sufficient to enable them to live in decent comfort ? — I am decidedly of that opinion, and that their com- forts are greater than they were under the old law ; and I can turn to parishes and to unions where, most distinctly, on revising the lists on the formation of unions, advances have been made upon the pay of the old people. 901. You are frequently in the habit of attending meetings of the boards of guardians during the time that they are receiving applications from paupers ? — Constantly. 902. Have you ever known instances of aged people complaining of the inade- quacy of the out-door relief which is affi:)rded them ? — Not the poor of good character ; some description of poor complain, whatever is done for tl^em ; but, generally speaking, I should say no. 003. Have you ever been present when any case of that nature brought before the board of guardians has appeared to you to be substantiated ? — Never, not the hardship of the case. ()o4. Generally speaking, then, is it your impression that the boards of guar- dians ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 3 dians are disposed to deal humanely and considerately wth the aged poor ? — e. Gulson, Ksq. Most decidedly so. _ 005. You stated that a great deal of apprehension was entertained in districts, 14 February 1838. prior to the introduction of the law, with reference to the treatment of the aged poor ; is it consistent with your experience that those apprehensions have been dispelled after the law has been for some time in operation ? — Most decidedly it is. 906. Do you attribute that to the circumstance of the guardians having given a sufficient "amount of out-door relief to the aged poor ? — Yes, I do. 907. Mr. Miles.] Then, as the 27th section now stands, you conceive that the amount of the relief is not to be determined by the magistrates hi the case of the aged poor, but by the guardians ? — I do. 908. Do you think "that that was the spirit of the law originally?—! do, for this reason, that the law took it out of the hands of the magistrates and placed it in the hands of the guardians, the representatives of the union, and that I conceive to be the spirit of the Poor Law Amendment Act. 909. You have stated that you consider the 27th clause gives the power to the magistrates only for the time being ; will you point out any words which lead you to that supposition ? — My meaning is this, that if the magistrates were to order out-door relief, and to fix a sum, and that order went to the relieving officer between the meetings of the board, the relieving officer would be bound to adhere to the magistrates' decision. 910. Then up to the time that the board sits, whatever their order is, you conceive the relieving officer must comply with it ? — I do, and I should advise every relieving officer in my district so to do. 911. Do you think that there would be any objection to make an alteration in the law, so as to make the ultimate appeal to the magistrates subject to certain provisions, namely, that the relief ordered should not be more than the amount given in the workhouse ?^ — I think that the discretion is much better vested in the board of guardians, but that if you make any alteration in that respect, certainly that the amount stated should be a definite one, and not allow the discretion of the magistrates to go beyond a certain amount ; nevertheless, I must say, I think that the law has acted hitheito so well in leaving the discre- tion with the board of guardians, the fair representatives of the union, that I should be sorry to see it taken out of their hands. 91^. You have stated that you know no cases in the district with which you are now connected in which the magistrates have made an order for the relief of the poor? — I have so stated. , 913. May not that have arisen from the ideas which have been inculcated in the different boards, that though the magistrates have the power of ordering re- lief, yet the boards have the power of determining the amount of the relief? — No, I think not ; I tliink it has solely arisen from the boards of guardians dealing fairly with every case of an old person that came before them. 914. Have any communications taken place between yourself and the magis- trates in the county in which you now are, relative to this point? — None. 015. Mr. Scropc] Do you consider it to be your duty, as an Assistant-com- missioner, not merely to take care that there is no lavish administration of relief in the unions under your superintendence, but also that there should be due and adequate relief afforded in every instance ? — Decidedly so ; and so much do 1 consider it my duty, that I have frequently gone a very considerable distance to a meeting of a board of guardians, in order to bring the case of an old person before them, in consequence of some representation that has been made to me that the case has not been properly considered. 916. You consider yourself just as much responsible for due and adequate re- lief to the poor, as for preventing lax administration of the parish funds ? — Quite as much so. 917. With regard to the superintendence of workhouses, do you find it neces- sary to execute that part of your office very minutely ? — Yes, I think it is, certainly. 918. Do you visit the workhouses at the same time that you visit the boards of guardians ? — Always, and at other times also ; I am in the habit of going into the workhouses, not only at the time that the boards of guardians are sitting, or ' are about to meet, because 1 expect that then the master is all in trim ; but 1 am in the habit of going at other times when he may not be expecting a visit. 140. A -' oig. In 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Guhon, Esq. g^g In your absence, by whom are the workhouses superintended, and to " whom is their management intrusted? — To the governor, under the visiting H lebrunry 1838. committee. 920. Do you think that that is effectually done, so as to secure the residents in the workhouse from improper treatment? — Yes, I think it is, from impi'oper treatment. 921. Have you had occasion at any time to find fault with the management of the paupers in the workhouse in your district ? — For laxity I have ; infringement of the Commissioners' rules, but not for any severity or punishment, or any thing of that kind, because I have not had any case of that kind brought under my knowledge. 922. Would the paupers, on your visiting the workhouse, if they thought them- selves aggrieved in any way, have sufficient confidence in you to come forward and state their complaints ? — Decidedly ; and I am in the habit of asking the paupers if they have any complaints, and so are the visiting committee ; and I have never heard any, and I am confident that complaints would be made if there were grounds for them. 923. Are the workhouses inspected by any but yourself and the visiting com- mittee ? — Yes ; the workhouses are open to parties who come without an order, and to every body with an order from a g-uardian. 924. May the clergyman visit the workhouse and converse with the paupers? — Certainly. 925. Is there any book in which those not being appointed visitors may record their observations? — Yes, certainly. You are aware that in a great number of the unions the workhouses are not completed ; I am speaking now of those unions in which they are completed, and the same regulation will take place in the others as they arrive at maturity. 926. Therefore, on the whole, you think that ample security is afforded for preventing any abuse in the management of the poor of the workhouse ; and, practically, you believe that there are no abuses of the kind ? — In my district I believe that to be the case decidedly ; and I know no point, if a complaint was made, upon which I should consider it more important, as a part of my duty, to immediately investigate the case, and to communicate with the Commissioners u{)on it ; and I conceive that there is no point upon which the Commissioners would sooner intlict the penalty of dismissal upon the governor, if he deserved it. 927. Are the governors of workhouses occasionally changed in your district ; have they been dismissed for misconduct ? — I have had one instance of a governor being changed ; he was not dismissed by the Commissioners, he was dismissed by the guai'dians ; but we have had one instance of change in that way, and only one. 928. I presume, on the first organization of an extensive system like this, you cannot be secure of having the best officers at once ; but you nmst have oppor- tunity of trying them, and then appoint the best men ? — Exactly. 929. That applies to the relieving officers as well as to the masters of work- houses? — It does. 930. Do you think the boards of guardians generally are anxious to obtain the services of the best men for those offices, and are not led by partiality or improper motives to select unfit persons to fill those offices ? — Generally speaking, they are anxious to obtain the best men ; but I have seen several instances of men whom they have known, who have canvassed amongst them, who have been selected for different offices, whom I should not have thought the most suitable men. 931. Are those comparatively unsuitable men retained for a length of time in their places, or do you think that they are dismissed ? — I think ultimately that will get upon its right footing, and that all those men will find their proper level ; that we shall have good servants by degrees. An exception occurred in one union, where a man was elected solely because he had been a farmer, a broken down farmer, and the guardians all knew him; and they said, " Why, he will do, give him a trial ;" and I said, " Very well, then, I will advise the Com- missioners to give him a trial, though I am certain he Vill not do." They have themselves found out that he did not do, that he was very incompetent, and they have themselves dismissed him. ()32. Considering that the whole benefit of the system must depend upon the union being well officered, and as you state partiality does sometimes prevail to too ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838. 5 too great an extent in the appointment of those officers, can you suggest any E. Guhon, Esq. further means than at present exist for checking that partiality, and securmgthe a])pointment of the best men? — There are no means, save and except giving the 14 February 1838. Commissioners the power of appointing them, and that would be a very great improvement, I conceive. 933. The Commissioners at present can negative the appointment, can they not ? — They can ; but it is a very unpleasant thing to do, to negative an appoint- ment. Our wish, and the wish of all parties, is to act cordially together, and if we were to negative an appointment made in that way, from friendship or from other motives, it would destroy that cordiality which is so essential for the well working of the system. 934. Has it been usual in your district to negative appointments of that nature ? — It has not. 935. How many instances do you know of the Poor Law Commissioners refus- ing to confirm the appointment of an officer ? — I am only acquainted with one, and that under the circumstance of his having been dismissetl at the previous board by the guardians themselves. 936. Chairman.'] The Commissioners in that case merely confirmed the dis- missal ? — The board had dismissed the man ; afterwards the guardians advertised, and his friends canvassed, and they put him up again, and they got a majority on the board of guardians on the selection of officers, and elected him again, although at a former board they had dismissed him. 937. Mr. Scrope.'] The confirmation of the appointment, of course, comes from yourself as Assistant-commissioner ? — It does. I recommended the Com- missioners in that instance, decidedly, not to confirm the appointment, but to reject it ; they did so, and we got a very good man instead. 938. Chairman.] What arrangement takes place in the workhouse for the education of the children ? — I am sorry to say that those arrangements in my district are not any thing like so perfect either as they ought to be, or as I hope to make them. The unions are new, all of them more or less, and we are getting good schoolmasters and good schoolmistresses as fast as we can, and in some unions I think we have got very good ones, but in others they are not so good, and we are hoping to make changes for the better constantly. I think that that is a part of the administration relative to workhouses which wants looking to ; and, decidedly, benefit would follow from the Conmiissioners having the appoint- ment of the schoolmaster and schoolmistress, for it is very difficult, with the agricultural population, to convince them of the necessity of giving a good education to the poorer classes. 939. The Commissioners are understood to have insisted, in letters which have been written at difterent times to the boards of guardians under their regulation, upon the children being- taught to read and to write?— Yes. 940. Do you not think that it would be desirable, besides reading and writing, that the children should be instructed in some of the common trades and businesses of life ? — I do, most decidedly so. Every day's experience tends to confirm me in the opinion that it would be exceedingly desirable to adopt some mode of giving them a different and a better kind of instruction than that which they now receive, in order to fit them for going out into life and making them- selves independent. 941. Are you aware of the arrangements on this subject which prevail in the Westhampnett workhouse in Sussex ? — I am not. 942. If you should understand that the nature of those arrangements was to divide the day so as to give a part of it to instruction in reading and writing, and another part of the day to instruction in several of the common trades and occu- pations of life, should you think that arrangement a desirable one? — I should, a very great improvement ; but I think in many of the unions you will find the number of children so small that you would have some difficulty in carrying it out, unless you were to allow orphan children, and other children of that kind, to go from several unions to an establishment where they could be educated in that way, an establishment which was kept for that purpose ; by that means there would be a greater number of children, and you could afford to give a better instruction in that respect. I would thus concentrate both the children and the effort which was made for their benefit and instruction. 943. The difficulty of providing instruction in those various occupations would depend, in some degree, upon the number of children in tlie house ? — It would, '40- A3 because 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Gt/lson, Esq. because the guardians feel, and properly feel, that the expense of having fit and • proper people to carry on this, perhaps with 20 children, would be such that it 14 February 1838, ^yould alarm them in fact. 944. Are there not very frequently in the workhouse aged and infirm persons who have themselves been members of different trades and occupations, who would be able to give instruction in that way to the childi'en ? — Not of good character in my district, for the out-door relief extends so widely to the aged, that we have not persons of that description generally in the workhouse that we should like to put the young under. 045. You think then that it would be necessary, in order to give the children this instruction, to hire persons for that purpose ? — I do, and I think unless you did that, and had a person responsible for that, you would not make it effective. ()46. You think the number of children in the different workhouses would not justify such an establishment in each workhouse ? — Not in agricultural districts. 947. You would therefore, in those districts, propose the formation of some establishment expressly for the purpose of receiving the children ? — I should ; I should like exceedingly to see in the counties of Nottingham and Lincoln some establishment to which the children might be sent for instruction both in mind and hand. 948. In that case the workhouse would no longer be a receptacle for children ? — Only temporarily. 949. Orphan children and friendless children, who are likely to remain for years in the workhouse, would, under that arrangement, not be sent to the work- house, but be sent to that establishment ? — Yes. 950. Mr. Slaney.} Illegitimate children? — Yes; all that we were likely to bring up ; those that were temporarily in the workhouse of course would not be sent to that establishment, unless the parents wished it ; if they did, I should see no objection to it ; but of course, inasmuch as that would tend to reduce the number in the workhouses, that would render it unnecessary to have the work- houses so large in consequence ; for instance, under such a system, in many cases you would not want to increase the workhouses, whereas you may want to increase them now under the present circumstances ; you would take a certain number away, and thereby create room for others. 951. Chairman.] Are all the children who are in your workhouses allowed to leave the workhouses occasionally for the purposes of recreation and play ? — For the purposes of exercise, with the master and mistress ; they go out walking under their superintendence, just like children at school, in some of my work- houses. 9.52. Does that take place invariably in all of the workhouses with which you are connected ? — No, I do not think it does in all. 953. Do you think it desirable that it should take place in all ? — I do not know that I should say that I do ; I think that many of the vsrorkhouses have no garden premises of sufficient space for the children, without going off the premises. . 954. That would depend, therefore, upon the space that was attached to the workhouse ? — It would. 9.55. In cases where there was no considerable space of ground attached to the workhouse, and where the health of the children might suffer from the con- finement, should you, under those circumstances, think it necessaiy that the children should be allowed to go out occasionally for exercise ? — I would ; I would not allow the health or the minds of the children to suffer in any degree ; I would go a great length to prevent any depression in those respects to the children. 9.',{i. — What have you observed to be the effect of the workhouse system upon the health of the children ? — ^The cluldren in the workhouses in my district are healthy, decidedly so. 957. You have had no returns made to you that they suffer in any degree in their health ? — 1 have not. 958. They are not fimited to the diet that is established for the adult paupers ? — No ; if the medical man made any representation that he thought an alteration of diet necessary for the children, it would at once be adopted. 959. Independently of the recommendation of a medical man, the diet for the children is arranged at the discretion of the master of the workhouse, is it not ? — Very ipuch so ; I think it is necessary, for the audit of the accounts, that it should ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 7 should be defined; but any alteration that he thought it necessary to make, £. Gw/so«, Esq. reiwrting it to the board of guardians, would at once be acceded to ; but I do not think he is allowed to give' them one thing this week, and another the next, »4lebruary 1S38. without showing some reason for it. 960. There is this direction in page 65 of the Report of the Poor Law Com- missioners of 1836, " Children under nine years of age are to be dieted at dis- cretion ;" what meaning do you attach to those words ? — I conceive, at the discretion of the board of guardians ultimately. 961 . Mr. Miles.] In cases of districts in a union where you could bring two or three workhouses in operation, and by so doing could classify the different orders, for instance, take three houses which you could bring into operation, and in one of which the young could be placed, and in one the old, and in one the able-bodied ; do you think that that would be preferable to placing them all under one roof? — I think that it would not be preferable ; I have seen it tried in my district several times, and in every instance the board have come to the con- clusion to build a new workhouse, and to do away with the different establish- ments. 962. In a very large union would you not have the power, so far as the children's workhouse is concerned, of bringing into operation very much of the good which you yourself look forward to, in the general concentration of the children in a particular spot? — Not at all, because in that workhouse there would be the children only of that one union ; and those, under the present system, are together in the central workhouse. qG^. Take a union of 52,000 inhabitants, where there may be 140 or 150 children m the workhouse, where you have a resident schoolmaster and school- mistress ; do you not think, by their being separated entirely from the able-bodied and aged persons, that a better system of discipline can be carried on, and at the same time a perfectly different system of nutriment be adopted 1 — No doubt about it ; and that the children would be benefited by such an arrangement, where the number was so considerable as that. 964. Mr. Scrope.'] Do you find that it is as easy to get the children out of the workhouse into employment as to get them in, or do they accumulate in the workhouse ; and do you find a difficulty in removing them? — I think some little difficulty may have been experienced in that respect, but not very great yet ; but I do think a time will come when it will be absolutely necessary to give them some kind of instruction, which will enable them to be more useful than their present workhouse education does. 965. Tlien at the present time they are receiving an imperfect education, and not learning any of the arts of life which would render them useful members of society when they come out of the workhouse ? — That is the case to a certain extent ; but we do endeavour to teach them some trades ; if we have a pauper who is a shoemaker or a tailor in the workhouse, we make him teach them ; but in many instances we have no such persons, and therefore the children are wanting in that kind of instniction, and it is a desirable one. 966. You consider that a pressing evil, and that no time should be lost in providing that kind of instruction which you think necessary 1 — I do. 967. Mr. Buines.~\ With respect to the apprenticing of children, do you, under the new system, do what was done a good deal under the old, that is, apprentice children to the parishioners as parish apprentices, by which they learned a trade, and were supported by the parishioners during the time that they were learning that trade ? — We do, as far as we can without premium ; but we do not give a parish premium with them. (.j68. Do you do what is done in a great many cases, resort to compulsory apprenticeship ? — No, in no part of my district whatever. 969. You do not do what is done at Leeds, send notes to the parishioners to say that a child in the Avorkhouse is appointed to them as an apprentice, and that they are left at liberty either to take the child or to pay a premium of 10/. ? — Nothing of the kind; the Commissioners have set their face entirely against it, because it is a direct interference with the labour market, and acts, I contend, very prejudicially upon the child itself, inasmuch as he frequently gets a very unwilling master, who, because he is unwilling, may try to get rid of him by means which he ought not to resort to. 9/0. You have quite discarded the system of sending the children out com- pulsorily as apprentices ? — Completely. 140. A 4 971. With 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Giihoii, Esq. Q-, With respect to schooling under the old system, was not the schooling ~ ' in workhouses generally extremely deficient ? — It was indeed, exceedingly so ; 14 lebruary 1838. j^Q^j^ipg J conceive could be worse ; and I happen to have by chance a specimen of one of the schoolmasters under the old system. 972. Under the new system, as it has hitherto proceeded, you say that it has not attained to that perfection that you wish it to attain, but that you are taking steps to bring the education of children to a higher state than it has attained ? — We are trying to do so to as great an extent as the powers of the Commissioners will enable us to do, but I think it will be very desirable to increase the powers of the Commissioners, to enable them to adopt measures which they cannot now adopt for the education of the children. 973. Will you specify those measures to which you allude? — I think it would be very desirable that the Commissioners should have the power of establishing central houses in certain districts, say unite a considerable number of unions together. 974. But the question is with respect to the schooling of the children ? — I would give the Commissioners power to appoint such persons as they thought necessary, with such remuneration as they thought necessary for that purpose, and place the entire control in the Commissioners. 975. Do you mean within the present union workhouses, or establishing separate ones ? — Establishing separate ones. 976. Mr. Sidney.] There is at present, if I understand you rightly, no uniform system acted upon throughout the various unions in which there are children to , be educated ? — There is not. 977. There is no recommendation yet issued by the Poor Law Commissioners for the purpose of pointing out a system, or specifying in any way the mode to be adopted in the various unions 1 — They direct the appointment of schoolmasters and schoolmistresses always, as far as my experience goes ; and they give their Assistant-commissioners, at least judging irom myself, instructions to see, as far as we possibly can, to the education of the children. 978. But have the Poor Law Commissioners yet issued any general rules, either obligatory or recommendatory, as to the mode in which the schools should be carried on, or as to the course of instruction ? — They have not. 979. Have they not been applied to frequently for the purpose of desiring that some such recommendation should be issued ? — I am not aware that any such application has ever been made from my district ; they do direct, as I said before, the appointment of schoolmasters and schoolmistresses ; there is an instructional letter with regard to the appointment of schoolmasters and schoolmistresses, and the education of pauper children — a recommendatory letter, but not an obligatory one. 980. Does it recommend a course of instruction, or simply that some instruc- tion should be given ? — It gives a course of instruction to some extent. 981. AVould it not be, in your opinion, of considerable advantage if some uniform system was to be adopted, which should be, I will not say obligatory, but at all events recommended to the unions throughout the country, for the purpose of the education of pauper children ? — It would. 982. Would it not facilitate the returns which are made of the education of the pauper children in the country ? — It would ; and I conceive that the Com- missioners will be enabled to do that when they have completed those arrange- ments which are still incomplete ; they can then turn their attention more fully to that ; they can only turn their attention partially to that subject till the system is arranged. 983. Are you not aware that in the education of pauper children in the country districts very great difficulty has been found, because there was no place to which you could look for a master or mistress who could give the children a good course of instmction ? — Yes. 984. Would it not therefore be of great consequence that you should have some institution to which you could look for good masters and mistresses ? — Yes, and that the guardians should be obliged to go to such institution. 985. Is it not within your knowledge, that in choosing a schoolmaster and schooinustress for the ]>ui-))ose of educating the poor children, the board of guardians frequently reject the best qualiiied person who comes from a distance, in order to give the situation to some person with whom they may be connected, ivho is in their district ?— Yes, partly so ; but I think it arises more in this wav, ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 9 ■way, that tlie number of children to be educated is small, and that the remu- E. Gulson, Esq. neration ottered is not such as \vill bring fit and proper persons. ()86. You stated that in agricultural districts the farmers, who are the '4 February 1838. guardians, were not aware of the necessity of education, and could not be induced to give a suthcient remuneration to get a good schoolmaster c* — That is my opinion, and I find it very difficult to induce them to see the matter in its proper 087. Do not you think that ultimately, with a view to economy, it would be the cheapest thing to have a good schoolmaster and schoolmistress, who would be able to give a good education to the children, and make them form such habits as that employers would be desirous to liave them, instead of their being pauper apprentices, such as the masters are desirous not to have ? — Most decidedly ; nothing could tend ultimately to the economy of the measure so much as educating the children in such a way as to enable them to provide for themselves independently. 08S. You stated that you thought it would ultimately be of great advantage that the children should be taught particular trades ? — Yes. 989. If mechanical trades were taught the children, would they be taught without expense ? — Yes. 990. Do you not think that evil might arise from their being taught trades of that kind, by their coming into competition with children of free workmen, and thereby underselling them in the labour market, and that ultimately injustice might be created to the independent labourers who had been at a great expense in educating their children to the same trade? — I think that you are rather sup- posing a case which will not ha])pen ; you say the independent labourer, having been at a great expense in educating his child to the same trade ; now I conceive that one great cause of the expense which the independent labourer has been at hitherto, in educating his child, in that respect, has been occasioned by the system adopted in parishes of giving premiums, and thereby obliging the inde- pendent man to give a premium also. The system adopted in parishes has been one very nmch against the independent labourer with respect to his children; perhaps the parish has had a great number of apprentices to put out ; they have been determined to put them out, and they have come into the market with their children, with the parish purse in their hand, and they have outbid the independent labourer, as regards the premium that they would give ; and if the parish can no longer do that, I conceive that those parties will take apprentices upon the best terms that they can get them, and when the parish purse stands no longer in the way, they will get them of the independent labourers for nothing, because they take those apprentices for the benefit, not of the children, but of themselves ; and if they cannot get them for one sum, they must get them at Avhat terms they can. 991 . Then you propose that if there happen to be in the workhouse a pauper shoemaker and so on, you shall not take advantage of that, but that you sliall hire persons to teach them? — Yes, I would. 992. Then by that do you not immediately give to the child in the pauper workhouse an advantage which the child of the free labourer has not ?— I con- fess you do to a certain extent, but I think that evil is very much less than allowing the children to be brought up in such a way that they must remain paupers, gq;^. Allowing the object which you state to be an excellent one, is it not necessary to use the utmost caution with respect to the mode in which this should be exercised, giving instruction in skilled trades, lest it should injure the independent labourer? — Decidedly so. 994- 'fhe education which has been given in workhouses to children, it is said, does not bring them up to any thing?— That I grant, but then I conceive that that imperfect course of bringing up the children has done a great deal towards pauperizing the country. 995. Mr. Estcourt.] Do the answers you have made apply both to rural and ma- nufacturing districts?— I do not think that it is necessary in agricultural districts to adopt the same means to the same extent as in manufacturing districts, because the agricultural children are absorbed upon the farms very shortly. yQti; Therefore the answer which you made the last but one, with regard to the evil likely to arise, would not be hkely to arise in an agricultural parish r— It would not. '40- B 997, Mr. 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E.Guhon, E?r). qqy. Mr. Slaney.} You have stated thfit you think it woi;ld be advantageous to have the children congregated into one large receptacle, which will no longer 14 February 183S. ]^g called a workhouse, but an educationary house, or a school, that their health should be attended to, and that they should be well educated, and educated in trades ; do you not think it necessary, whilst you give them the best kind of edu- cation, to give it in such a way as not to induce independent labourer;^ to relax in their endeavours to keep their children out of the workhouse, by thinking that they will be better'in the workhouse than out of it ? — Most decidedly, and that is a point of the utmost importance to keep in view. 998. Mr. Scrope-I Do you think there would be any great objection to ap- prenticing some of the orphan children you have spoken of in the colonies '? — No, I do not think there would be any objection to it at all. 999. Children in whom no persons in this country took an interest, or would be at the expense of their education ? — Precisely ; I do not think there would be any objection to it. 1000. Mr. Wakley.'\ Have any of the children, to your knowledge, been sent to the colonies? — No. 1001. Chairman.'} Can the Commissioners send them to the colonies under the present law? — No. 1002. Is there any human being in this country who can be sent by com- pulsion, without the sentence of a court of law? — I am not aware that there is. 1003. Mr. Wuklei/.] You stated there would be a difficulty in carrying out the arrangements which have been mentioned, with regard to the education of children in the workhouses, in consequence of the smallness of the number ; would there be any objection to receiving the children of able-bodied labourers who had five or six or seven children into the school of the woi'khouse ? — Not if they pay for the advantage afforded. 1004. If they were received, paying a very small sum, just to draw a distinc- tion between their chikh'en and the pauper children ?— Exactly, they paying such a sum as would pay for the advantage afforded. 1005. Would voii exclude relief, even in the way of education? — No, I mean as would not amount to relief of maintenance ; I should see no objection at all to go to some considerable length in educating the children of the independent la- bourer, but not by way of relief for maintenance. io(>6. That the children should go to such a school in the same way as they have been in the habit of going to village schools, and taking their dinner with them, and returning in the evening ? — Exactly so. 1007. Mr. Slaney.1 Do you not think it would be objectionable, upon recon- sideration, to have the independent children even in the same building with the pauper children, because it may take away a salutary feeling that there is in the minds of many independent labourers ? — I should not like to see it adopted in our present workhouses, but if a number of unions were united, and we had an instructional place specially for that purpose, I do not think that that cause would operate. As regards the workhouse, I should not like to see it at all. ioo8. Do not you think a better plan would be, that some system should be adopted by which the working classes who are not at present able to give their children education should be enabled to give it to them in another form? — I do. 1009. Mr. Wakley.] You allude to such a system as the questions have had reference to, merely as a temporaiy one t — Yes. 1010. But do you see any objection to children of independent labourers attending the workhouse school ? — I think that there would be a great amount of evil, but perhai)s the good would predominate ; but all those questions of education have reference to the present arrangement ; in that respect I think that other arrangements preferable might be adopted to those that we have been speaking of; but my answers distinctly had reference to the present law upon this question, and the operation of it. 1011. Mr. Hodges.'] Supposing there is an advantage from giving the poor this privilege of attending those schools, is it not clear that that advantage would be enjoyed only by the poor of the parish in which the house is situated, and could not be enjoyed by the other parishes ; that children having to go three or four, or five, or six miles, could not enjoy that benefit ? — I cannot go that length, because ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) n because I know an instance of schools established by private charity, where they E. Guhon, Esq. do come from a distance, certainly of three miles, to it. 1012. You say that you have always found boards of guardians act in a spirit U February 1838. of kindness, and even of liberality, towards the aged poor ? — That is my impres- sion. 1013. Are you or are you not of opinion that a great deal of the strong feeling manifested in so many districts against the new law would not have taken place, had the same spirit of kindness, and, I will say, of justice, been shown towards the able-bodied labourers whom the new law found with large families at the time it was passed ? — What may be justice to that class must of course be a matter of opinion ; and I think it was so difficult to draw any line, in bringing the new law into operation, that should preclude complaint, that greater evil would have arisen from adopting any other course than that which was adopted, of adhering to the line v/hich was laid down. 1014. Then you are of opinion that the drawing such a line would be difficult, and produce far greater disadvantages than would be compensated by any benefit arising from the favourable reception of the new law if such a line had been drawn ?— I think that the line that was drawn was that which, upon the whole, was the most beneficial, because I stated yesterday that, as far as my knowledge extended, out-door relief to such people was not prohibited in any union that has come under my charge, until 12 months after it came into operation. [2'he Ques- tion was rend.] —I think that less feeling might have been manifested, but that in the end we should have experienced greater difficulty than we have. 1015. Can you state those difficulties? — I think that whenever the law was brought into operation by the adoption of any other system than was adopted, for instance by allowing a certain sum for relief, that we should have expe- rienced greater difficulties than we have found already. 1016. Was it not the practice under the old law, that as a man's family grew up and became independent, the amount of relief was diminished ? — Yes, it was ; but it unfortunately happened, also, as a consequence of the old practice, that a great many, and a vast number of them, did not become independent, but that they fell back upon the parish. 1017. Might not, under the new law, such regulation have been made, and, in point of fact, are not regulations made, to prevent parties from falling back upon the parish? — Yes, because all out-door relief is refused. 1018. Therefore, if you have made that arrangement, the same inconvenience could not possibly recur ? — Regarding those families, it would have recurred, to whom relief was given. 1019. Would you have allowed them, when they grew up, to interfere with the practice of the new law ? — No ; but, as I said before, whenever you attempted to alter the system, and to bring them under the present law, I think you would have experienced more difficulty than we have experienced. 1020. Mr. Baines.] You have been asked whether, under a different practice from that which has been pursued, the new law would not have been more popular ; is not the new law most unpopular in those places where it has not been tried ? — Most distinctly so ; there cannot be a question of that. 1021. Therefore the want of popular favour in the new law does not arise so much from its being tried, and from the defectiveness of the system, or from complaints against the system, as it arises from the prejudice existing before the trial is given ? — Just that, that so much misconception prevails regarding it, and so much has been done to create that misconception, and so many people have made it their business to create that misconception, that I conceive the evil arises much more from that than it does from any other circumstance ; and that is shown by the fact you have stated, that where the law is in operation, it is more popular than where it is not in operation. 1022. Mr. Hockjes.] Is the denial of out-door relief to large families that were in existence at the time of the new law a misconception or a fact ? —That is a fact. 1023. Might not the knowledge and consciousness of that fact account for a good deal of the hostility to the new law in districts in which it has not yet been in force? — No, I think not. 1024. Chairman.] Are you not aware that, in those districts where the greatest objection seems to be entertained to the new law, it has not been the practice to give relief to the able-bodied ? — I am. 140- B 2 1025. Therefore, 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. GuJsoii, Esq. 1025. Therefore, in those respects, as far as regards relief to able-bodied, would or would not the introduction of the new law make any change in the practice ? — 14 February 1838. It would not, for instance, in the North ; the allowance system not having been adopted, it would not have to be done away, and the practice would be much the same. 1026. Mr. Batnes.'] Do you mean that in those districts where the new law has not been introduced, and where the greatest prejudice exists, out-door relief has not been afforded ?— No, I do not say that; but I mean that the allowance svstem has not prevailed to the same extent as it prevailed in the agricultural disti'icts in the South; although out-door relief has been given, it has been given in a very different manner from what it was in the South ; it was given upon the necessitv of the case, and not by rule, according to the number of the family ; the wages were not made up. 1027. The wages were not made up ; but supposing a father to represent himself to be in distress and to have gone to the parish otKcer, has not that parish officer given to the pauper a certain degree of relief according to the number of his family, without requiring that the person making that application should come into the house ? — Yes; but the change in the manufacturing districts, although that has been the case, is infinitely less than in the agricultural districts w^here the allowance system has prevailed. 1028. Mr. J^stcourt.'\ Have remonstrances been made from any unions under your management against the adoption of the rule prohibiting out-door relief to the able-bodied ? — I have no board of guardians in my district by whom any such remonstrance has been made ; but I have one board of guardians that within this last week applied to the Commissioners for a discretion during the frost ; those words were in it; the frost had broken up, or partly broken up, on the very day that the letter arrived in London, and continued broken up for several days till the Commissioners' answer went down. 1029. Was that an agricultural or manufacturing district? — An agricultural. 1030. Mr. Wakley.] What was the Commissioners' answer? — The Commis- sioners refused. 1031. What was that union? — Holbeach, in Lincolnshire. 1032. Mr. JSatcourt.] Then, as far as you know, no remonstrances have been made by any boards under your management against putting in Ibrce this rule prohibiting out-door relief? — Distinctly, none. 1033. Is there any union imder your management in which that rule is not in operation ? — Many ; because in some we have not the workhouses com- pleted. 1034. Mr. Wakley.] Is there a workhouse at Holbeach? — ^Yes. 1035. Mr. Hodges.] Were there any petitions to Parliament presented on that subject from any part of the country? — I have seen it so represented. 1036. Mr. Sidney ] Out-door relief to able-bodied persons is forbidden in several districts ; is there any district in which out-door relief is forbidden to all classes of persons ? — None. 1037. If there be able-bodied persons who have families, and they apply upon the ground of their families, in that case relief is forbidden ? — Yes, because the Poor Law Amendment Act declares that all relief to a family under 1 6 years of age, is relief to the able-bodied man. 10315. Suppose a case in which there is illness in the family, then relief may be given ? — In my district relief is given under those circumstances. 1039. Mr. Wakley.'] So that in fact the rule is in no way adhered to, that relief is witldield from the able-bodied? — The words of the rule are these, " That from and after a certain day all relief to the able-bodied shall be in the workhouse, save and except accident and sickness." 1040. Mr. Slaney.] That was the case under the old law ; in the case of illness there was that provision, was there not ? — There was. 1041. Mr. Estcourt.] Do you consider the illness of the wife as giving an able- bodied man a claim to relief, if the board of guardians think proper, out of the workhouse ? — I think that the Commissioners — indeed I will tell you what the practice is with me — the practice in my experience is, that the boards ot guardians report all those c-ases to me in which they do give relief in case of the illness of any of the family. 1042. Chairman.] The boards of guardians being in the habit of giving relief under such circumstances ?— Yes ; and the cases in which it is so granted are stated ON THE POOPx LAW AMEND.MEXT ACT. (1838.) 13 stated to me, and I have never, in any instance, been aware of such rehef being e. GuLe guardians said that they thought 300 /. too much, that they would not give 300 1, and that it had better be put up to tender; a division took place in the board of guardians, and it was decided by a considerable majority that advertisements should be issued for tenders ; those advertisements were confined at that time to that district ; the tenders came in, and tlie gross amount of those tenders, the lowest of them, varied from 450/. to 700 ^, 300/. hitherto having been paid. 1072. When you say 300/. having been paid, do you mean 300/. for salaries, or 300/. including all extra charges for suspended orders, and so on? — I mean, inchiding all extra charges, the charges upon those parishes were 300/., for a great deal of it was not salary ; the tenders coming in so very high, it came out at ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 15 at the board of guardians that all the medical men of that district had met ; that EMn^r^. there had been a consultation among themselves ; that they ^f ' "^ '^^^' J^^^J: .^ Pebrua.y .838. bined • and the guardians immediately, and by my advice, resolved not to accept 4 any of those tenders which came in so very much higher than the sum which had hitherto been paid. They then resolved to give a certain sum tor the whole union and I advised that that sum should be 300Z. ; but the guardians said, " No we think that too much ; this is a measure ol economy, and the parish having been attended hitherto for 300/. under the old plan, where perhaps this parish belonged to A. and this to B. they were riding over one another s ground, we think it ought to be attended for something less than 300/., and we will give ^-jO/" I certainly used mv endeavours to get the board ot guardians to give 300/., and I induced them to give 270/. instead of 250/. The advertisements were all issued in many papers tar and near. On the day upon w uch those tenders were to come in, I attended the board of guardians ; I lound that the medical men were, many of them, in a room adjoining the board of guardians, for the board ot guardians was held at an inn, our workhouse not being ready ; and 1 advised the board ofguardiansstrongly,before those tenders were opened (and from the outside of them they showed that they were foreign tenders, if I may so term them) to wait; and we tried all that we could do, I did personally with one or two medical men as representatives of the others, to induce them to accept 300/., and told them that I would then go from them to the board of guardians, and use my best influence as Assistant-commissioner to induce the board of guardians, though they had re- solved before to give only270/., to give 300/. to the resident mecUcal men,rather than open the foreign tenders ; but some degree of asperity, perhaps, had grownup be- tween the medical men and the board of guardians upon that point, and the medical men said, " No, we will not take 300/. ; that will be coming down too much ; but, however, I persuaded the board of guardians to wait halt an hour whilst the medical men in the room adjoining had a consultation amongst themselves, and they were to come in and tell us the result ; I entreated one of their friends not to fix upon anv sum beyond 300/., for beyond that I was sure the guardians would not go- and they came in and said that they would not accept 300/., but 320/. as the lowest sum; the board of guardians threw the matter up, and the foreign tenders were immediately opened, and the services of a gentleman of the name ot Sherrilf, who came there certainly with such testimonials as I never saw before, were obtained. A o-entleman who liad been lecturer in Edinburgh, and was in practice in Edinburgh, and who had shown that he had received rewards from some of the medical societies for discoveries that he had made, came down and ofl'ered to attend any ot the districts which were mentioned, but if he had the whole union he would attend it for 200/. instead of the sum of 270/. offered by the board of guardians ; there was no doubt that he was a fit and proper person, from his testimonials. The other tenders Avere of course opened. He agreed, if he had the whole union, to bring a regularly qualified assistant with him, and to visit each parish twice a week, whether he was wanted or not ; to fix upon certain places at which he might be found at certain hours throughout the week, he and his assistant ; and as he agreed to take it for 200/., the guardians having offered 270/., thereby showing that 270/. was not too much, I at once tried with the board of guardians to get them to give away this other 70/. to other medical men on the outside of the district, in order to limit the size of his district within as narrow a compass as possible ; they would not give away the whole of the 70/., but they did give away a considerable portion of it to Mr. Gunning and Mr. Wrangham, who took the two outsides of the district. 1 073. What amount of population was taken by those medical men? — Mr. Gun- ning has taken the parishes of Cainby, Normanby, Owenby, Saxby, West Firsby, East Firsby, Spridlington, Faldingworth, Huckthorne, Cameringham, Ingham, Cold Hanworth, Snarford, and Friesthorpe ; those parishes he has at the present day. Mr. Gunning lives in one of those parishes, Owenby. Mr. Wrangham has Bardney with Southrey, Steinfield, Apley, Goltho, Bullington, Rand-cum- Fulnethy, Holton, Bickering, Wickenbyand Snelland, and he resides at Wragby, which is an adjoining parish to the great parish of. Bardney, which is one of the largest in the Lincoln Union. 1074. What is the number that you have in the union whom the me- dical practitioner has to attend ? — Mr. Shevriff told me the last time that I saw him, he having received 200/. a year for his attendance, that save and except 140. B 4 the i6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Gu/sun, Esq. the -n-orkhouse, he never had more than 14 paupers upon his books at one time ■ during the last year. 14 FtbniJiy 1S38. 1075. Did he ask you to reduce tlie salary? — No. 1076. "With what view did he make the statement? — Because 1 asked him, thinking it very likely that I might be examined upon that point. 1077. Was Mr. Sherrift" a stranger to you? — Entirely so; I never saw him before. 1078. Was he a stranger to the board of guardians? — Entirely so. The chairman came from Scotland, and he Avrote to some of his friends at Edinburgh as to the character of this young man. io7(). Cf/airman.] Did the chairman know Mr. Sherriff'?— Never before in his life. 1080. Mr. Wakley.] Is Mr. SherrifF a Scotchman ?— He is. 1081. Of what college? — I do not know. 1082. Is he a licentiate of the college of surgeons ? — He is. 1083. Will you undertake to say that the charges for medical attendance in the parishes forming that union were not more than 350/. on the average of the five or six years which preceded the appointment of that medical practitioner ? — I will undertake to say so, imless the overseers grossly deceived me. 1 0S4. You drew the average from a personal examination of the books ? — Yes, and an examination of the overseers. 1085. Tiien, in point of fact, a stranger was appointed, a person utterly unac- rpiainted with the habits and condition of the poor in the neighbourhood, and utterly unacquainted with the locality, because there happened to be a difierence between the guardians and the resident practitioners on the sum of 20/. — No, certainly not. The medical men first of all made tenders, the lowest of which was 4.50/., and that circumstance, and the knowledge of their combination, created some feeling, as it was very likely to do, of asperity, and then it came to a very much nearer point than it would have done if it had not been for the mode adopted bv the medical men in the first instance, and the board ofiered only 270/. 1086. And you recommended 300/.? — Yes, I told the medical men that if they ofiered that. I would try to get the board to agree to it. 1087. Did you intimate to the guardians that you thought that they should give 300 /. ? — In the first instance I did. 1088. Did they say that they would give 300/.? — No, they did not, but I think I could have got them to say that, if the medical men had ofiered to take it ; but this, I should say, occupied a considerable time, and I had conversations Avith two or three of the medical men, and I could mention names if necessary, who told me that if it had not been lor this combination which they entered into, they would have been very glad to accept the term which the guardians ofiered them, but they felt bound to adhere to their colleagues. 1089. Did Mr. Sherrift' give to the chairman the references of the parties that he inquired of ? — He gave a number of references, but the chairman inquired also of his own intimate friends. 1 090. Had Mr. Sherrift" been in practice at Edinburgh ? — Yes. loyi. Do not you think that the poor labour under a great disadvantage by having an entire stranger acting as a medical man among them ? — I consider that we were placed in such difiicult circumstances, that we did by far the best thing that could be done. By way of showing the anxiety of the guardians to do every thing which could contribute to the comfort of the poor in that respect, I may state that the time has arrived when it has become necessary to make arrangements for the ensuing year ; those arrangements have been made, and we have still further lessened Mr. Sherrifi"s district, inasmuch as two of the gentle- men who before refused to have any thing to do with any part of the union, have now consented to take a portion of the district. 1092. What do you now pay them ? — The guardians have given the whole 270/. 1093. Clwirnwn.] Which is the sum they originally were determined to ofiier the medical practitioners ? — Yes. 1094. Mr. Mi/i:s.] Do those two medical gentlemen who liave lately taken a portion of the district, reside at Lincoln ?— They reside at or near the parishes tliey have engaged to attend. inq-,. Mr, W iiklnj.] Do you think that the conchict which tlie board of guar- dians ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 17 dians displayed in this instance, in providing the medical attendance for the poor, E. Gufton, Esq. shows that they were the best representatives of the interests of the poor ? — I - do ; I think that in that instance no board of guardians could be shown to be H 1 ebruary 1838. more anxious to do the best that could be done for the poor, and no board ot guardians ever adopted a plan more anxiously than the Lincoln board did on that occasion. logC). '\'ou think that it was a proof of kindness in the board that they should prefer a person who was a stranger to that district, giving him 200 /. a year to attend the poor, they being ready to give 270/., when there were 12 practitioners in the district ready to attend the poor for 270 /. ? — I deny that they were pre- pared to give Mr. Sherrift' 270 /. a year, and I also deny that the resident medical men were willing to take 270/., for they refused to take it for less than 320/. ; we had many other offers for districts or jiortions of the union, and if it had not been for the nature of Mr. Sherrift" 's offer, the guardians would have given portions of the union to other candidates. Mr. Sherriff never had the whole union. 1097. They took Mr. Sherriff because his terms were so low ? — Because they thought he was a fit and proper person, and because the terms of others were so high. 1098. Was it a combination on the part of the medical men ? — Yes. logg. And a combination on the part of the guardians ? — Yes. 1 1 00. One had the law on their side, and the other had nothing but regard for their own interests to protect them ? — I think they were exactly on the same footing. 1101. Mr. S/aney.] Were not the guardians protecting the rate-payers? — Decidedly ; and for that reason they would not have been justified in adopting any other course I 102. Do you not think that the doctors were quite rightly served when they entered into a combination to get more than a decent payment ? — I think so ; and if any medical man who had been attending me and my family had acted in the same manner, I would have turned him oft', and got a fresh one. 1103. Do not you think that any set of men, whether guardians or not guardians, so situated, would have acted in the same way ? — Certainly. . 1 1 04. Mr. Scrope.] Were the old parish officers in vestry actuated exclusively in those appointments by kindly feelings towards the poor ; did not they consult economy? — They consulted their pockets quite as much as any thing else, and perhaps a little more than they ought in some instances. 1105. Chairma?/.'] How long has Mr. Sherrift" had the care of this union ?- He must have had the care of the union about twelve months ; the twelve months are just exjjired. nob. Have you known him since he has had it under his charge ? — Always. 1107. Have you heard of any complaints of his neglect or mismanagement of the poor?— So far from hearing complaints, knowing that he had a large district under his charge, and knowing all that was said relating to the medical appoint- ments in the public press and elsewhere, t thought that I would devote some time and trouble to ascertain, in the Lincoln Union, how this matter went on, and I have been among the poor, and I have inquired of clergymen of parishes, and I am prepared to state most distinctly that Mr. Sherrift" has, as far as I can learn, given the greatest satisfaction, and that a great body of evidence might be produced before this Committee, if necessary, to prove that fact. 1 loS. Do you happen to know whether Mr. Sherriff has obtained by his pro- fessional reputation much private practice in the neighbourhood? — He has obtained some, a considerable practice. 1109. Mr. Estcourt.'] Where does Mr. Sherriff live now?— In the city of Lincoln. 1110. He not having resided there previously ?— No ; Lincoln contains a population of 10,000. 1111. Mr. Ficlden.] You stated that this Lincoln Union is 20 miles by 17 ? — I think that that would give rather an erroneous impression ; I stated that the longest point anywhere from north to south is the one, and that the longest point from east to west is the other ; but it is by no means to that extent all round, as you will see by the shape of it. 1112. Where is the union workhouse placed in the Lincoln Union? — At Lincoln. 1113. What is the greatest distance from the union workhouse to the extre- mity of the union ? — Eleven or twelve miles. ^4'J- c 1114. Mr. i8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E.Gulson, Esq. 1 1 14. Mv. Slaney.] Are those extreme points the least populous ? — They are, decidedly so. »4 February 1838. 1115. "Mr. Fielden.] What were the abuses complained of by any parties under the administration of the old law in the Lincoln Union? — I have not stated that any were complained of. ni6. Did no abuses exist in the administration of the poor laws in those parishes 1 — Yes, I conceive that there were abuses. 1117. What were they? — I could 2;ive, by reference to my note-book, peculiar instances, but I had no idea of being examined upon the Lincoln Union this morning, but I will refer to my note-book and state certain instances, if there are any, but of course the old administration prevailed in the parishes in the Lincoln Union, that of giving out-door relief in a very irregular manner, and upon what I term no principle at all, inasmuch as the practice in the one parish was not the practice in another, and they varied as much as in any part of the country I was ever in. 1118. Was head-money given there ? — To a certain extent it w^as, but not at all generally. 1 11Q. Was the administration of the poor at all complained of in this union, before you formed it, either by the rate-payers or the rate-receivers? — I am not able to judge of that, because I was not in Lincolnshire upon the passing of the Poor Law Amendment Act, nor did I go there till two years after the passing of that Act. That great abuses did prevail there can be no doubt, in all those agri- cultural parishes, more or less ; I will instance one irregularity which occurred in that part of the country, whether in the Lincoln Union or not I cannot tell without referring to my book ; the contributing out of the parish rates to buying a game certificate, and all that kind of irregular relief; I asked, of course, for an explanation, and it was this : that the man came to the overseer, having a wife and two or three children, wanting relief. The overseer said, " You can support yourself and your family if you like ?" " No, I cannot." " Oh," said the overseer, " Yes, you can ; you have various ways of supporting yourself." " Why," said the man, " I think I could, if I could purchase a game certificate ;" and the over- seer assisted to purchase for him a game certificate, and set him up poaching. This comes to my memory as one instance out of a great many; and I will mention an- other: in a parish in the Louth Union, I think it is, a drunken carpenter, a man ad- dicted to drinking, in the earning at that time of I5s. a week, came to the overseer and asked for relief; the overseer refused him relief, and said that he could maintain his family. " No," said the man, pointing to another man near him, "there is John so and so has relief ; and if I have not relief, I shall not go on working as I do." The overseer refused him relief, the man adopted the course which he threatened the overseer he would adopt ; he took to drinking, and began to neglect his family, until the wife became troublesome, and she acknowledged that her husband could earn good wages if he pleased, but, solely because his neighbour had relief and he had not, he neglected his family until he became troublesome and threatened the overseer ; and, by way of getting out of the difficulty, the overseer at last gave him relief, and I found him in the receipt of relief. Shortly after he received relief, the overseer, from some cause or other, wanted to borrow some money on the parish account, and the pauper lent them 40 1. ; they gave a note of hand to the pauper for the 40 /. which he lent to the parish. I thought him a very clever fellow, and went to see him, and found him living in a cottage, with a garden and three or four acres of land ; he had a cow and some sheep, and he showed me the note of hand for 40/. which he held against the parish; he said that he should expect the money. Now, if those are not abuses, I know not what are. 1 120. Mr. Baines.'] Had he had any money left him ? — He had not. 1121. Mr. FielJen.] Had not the overseer a power of checking this relief, or of altogether withdrawing it? — He decidedly had the power ; but I tell you how he exercised the power under the discretion which the old law gave him. 1122. What discretion? — A great want of it; I say that was the manner in which he exercised the discretion that the old law placed in the overseer. 1 1 23. Had not the overseer to give up his accounts at the end of the year, and were they not examined by the rate-payers, or somebody appointed for the pur- pose ? — No, certainly not. 1 1 24. Chairman.] Was there, in point of fact, any efficient examination of the overseer's accounts ? — None whatever. I will mention another point : in a great number ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 19 number of parishes the overseers had never ^one before the magistrates with £ . GuUon, Es q. their books ; the overseers for years had not had their books exanuned by the magistrates ; and they said they had done very well without the magistrates, and H I'eorua.y i«3». therefore they had kept away from them, and made a rate among themselves. 1125. Mr' Wakley.] What was the rate in the pound at that time ?— It was not high. 1 1 26. In what parish was it in which this man resided ?— In G • 1 1 27. What was the age of the man?— He was an able-bodied man, 40 perhaps. 1128. How long had "he ceased to work before he had relief?— He never ceased to work; he was in the receipt of 15s. or 16*. a week, and when I found him he was in the receipt of 16,v. a week. ii2(). Mr. Fielden.] The administration of the poor laws did not form a sub- ject of complaint in those parts among the rate-payers?— Not when I went down. 1 130. But did not you form the union ?— Yes, two years after the passing ot the Poor Law Amendment Act. 1131. Then, when the union was formed, there was no complaint of the adminis- tration of the law amongst the rate-payers there ?— They never made any com- plaint to me ; I do not know what complaints there were amongst themselves ; I go there as a stranger, and set to work as fast as I can to get through the business. But they showed no hostility to the new law ; there is no county that can have accepted the new law more quietly than the county of Lincoln. 1132. You have stated that the wages in Lincolnshire were higher than they were in Oxfordshire and Berkshire, and other places that you are acquainted with ; do not you think that that was one reason why the operation of the poor laws was not" complained of before the Act was passed, the people having better wages, and being less under the necessity of applying to the parish for relief? — Very likely, I think. :- 1 133. Then you do think that wages have something to do with this question ? —No, I do not mean that, abstractedly ; I said so much upon wages yesterday, that it would only be repeating what t before expressed ; the fact is this, that the wages were at a fair rate, the allowance system never prevailed, and thereiore the wages of the men were never beaten down to the extent that they have been in the South. 1134. But I understand from you that no unpopularity has arisen from the introduction of the new law in the Lincoln Union ? — ^There always will be in every locality a certain number of people who do not like it, whose occupations are interfered with, and whose pockets perhaps suffer from it a little ; and that class of people of course will always object to be interfered with by the new law ; but I can only repeat my former answer, that I know of no district in which the new law has been more cordially received than in Lincolnshire. 1135. Have you heard "no complaints on the part of the labourers, who were in want, since the new law has come into operation in the Lincoln Union? — No, I have not indeed. 1136. Have you not known of any case of applications having been made for relief, and being denied, unless the party would go into the workhouse? — \es, 1 have known that very olten. 1137. Have you known of any severe suffering in consequence of that denial ? — I have not. 1 138. You have not known of death ensuing in consequence of a man refusing to go into the workhouse ? — I have not. 1139. If such should prove to be the fact, would you still have so good an opinion of the advantage of the new law in the Lincoln Union as you have expi'essed ? — I cannot think that such a thing can have occurred in the Lincoln Union from the operation of the law. If a man has brought death upon himself, I conceive that neither the law nor we as Commissioners have any thing to do with that. 1 1 40. I put the question in this way : if death has arisen from relief having been denied to a man who was in want, unless he would accept the workhouse ; you say you do not believe such a case has occurred ; but suppose such a case luis occurred ? — Then I should say, if a man chose to starve himself to death rather than come into the workhouse, that was his own course and freewill, and a matter with which the Commissioners and board of guardians have nothing whatever to do. 1141. Chairman.] Would not a man under the same circumstances have been J 40. c 2 starved 20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE £. Guhoii, l:s ^ H— 1 > -A PI P3 a pi X W OM OMMIITEE £33 H H > H FOURTH REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT; WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Ordered, hij The House of Commons, to be Printed, 16 February 1838. 144. [ ii ] Luna:, -I"]" die Novemhris, 1837. Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into tiie Administration of the Relief of the Poor, under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act, Ordered, That the Committee consist of TVventy-one Members : Lord John Russell. Mr. Ward. Mr. Fazakerley. Lord Viscount Howick. Mr. Richard Walker. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Poulett Scrope. Mr. Villiers. Mr. Baines. Mr. Miles (Somerset). Mr. Boiling. Mr. Law Hodges. Mr. Lister. Mr. Chichester. Sir Thomas Fremantle. Mr. Slaney. Mr. Baineby. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Liddell. Mr. John Fielden. Mr. Estcourt (Devizes). Ordered, That 'the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers and Records. Ordered, That Five be the Quorum of the Committee. Jovis, 8" die JFebruarii, 1838. Ordered, That power be given to the Committee to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House. THE REPORT - - - - p. m MINUTES OF EVIDENCE P- 1 [ iii ] REPORT. THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the Administration of the Relief of the Poor under the Orders and Regulations issued by the CoMMissiONEKS appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act ; and who were empowered to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House : — HAVE taken some further Evidence, which they have agreed to report to The House. \(j Ftbruary 1838. 144. [ -v ] WITNESS. Edward Gulson, Esq. [ ' ] MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Veneris, 16° die Februariif 1838. Mr. Baines. Mr. Barneby. Mr. Estcourt. Mr. Fielden. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Hodges. Lord Howick. MEMBERS PRESENT : Mr. Liddell. Mr. Lister. Mr. Miles. Mr. Slaney. Mr. P. Scrope. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Walker. MR. FAZAKERLEY in the Chair. Edward Gulson, Esq., again called in ; and further Examined. 1273 — 1310. Mr. MilesJ] DID you form the whole of Lincolnshire into ^ Cuhon Esq. unions ? — 1 did. 1311. Into how many unions have you formed Lincolnshire ? — I beg to correct jg February 1838. myself, I did not form the whole of Lincolnshire ; a gentleman, who is not now an Assistant-commissioner, Mr. Pilkington, was in Lincolnshire for a short time before I was, and he arranged one or two of the unions quite in the south of Lincolnshire before I went down ; with that exception, I did form the whole. 1312. But the whole of the north you formed ? — Yes; I merely wish to guard myself; virtually, I did it all. 1313. Of how many parishes do Louth and Spilsby Unions consist? — Louth contains 88, and Spilsby contains 66, but in reference to that I must repeat what I stated on Wednesday, that the size of a union by no means depends upon the number of parishes, but rather upon the extent of them ; and the property in that part of the country is so very much subdivided, that the number of parishes appears to be much larger than they usually are ; for instance, one of those parishes, Louth Park, contains but 49 inhabitants ; Hallington contains but 67 ; Stewton contains but 69 ; Carlton Castle only 54 ; North Reston, 39 ; Ruckland only 24; Hangham, 92; Farforth, 91; Claythorpe, 61; Tothill, 67; Little Grimsby, 52; Calcethorpe, 72; Brackenborough, 44; Biscathorpe, 45; With- call, 72 ; so that it does not depend upon the number of parishes nearly so much as upon the size of those parishes; Waith contains only 31 inhabitants. The whole population of Louth Union is 25,214. 1314. Was any memorial presented to you during the formation of the Louth and Spilsby Unions, instead of creating the district of country embraced now within the two unions, to create a third union in the centre ? — There was. 1315. What was the reason for objecting to that ? — I conceived that we had but a choice of two evils ; we were bounded on one side of Louth by an old incorpo- ration that existed at Kelstern, consisting of 52 parishes. The memorial to which you allude, I presume, for that was the memorial which I received, came from Alford and its vicinity. The population round Alford is remarkably small, and I tried over and over again to cut out, if I may so express myself, a union for Alford, and 1 found that I could not get above a population of something like 8,000 at Alford, the poor-rate expenditure of which 8,000 people, and the area around it was so small, that the necessary expense of the new workhouse and the establishment would have been so great as compared to the advantages, that I conceive I was doing very much the best for their interests by making two unions instead of three ; and I wish the Committee also to observe, in explanation of that point, that it was not only that Alford and that part of the country would have had a great expense thrown upon them, but the parishes that must have been taken from Louth and Spilsby would have tended to have increased the expense upon Louth and Spilsby ; in fact, the establishment charges and three workhouses, and the whole expense of three is so much greater than of two unions, and that extra expense of a third union would partly have been borne by Alford and its H4' A district, 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Gulson, Esq. district, purtly by Spilsby and partly by Louth ; so that, in fact, though a con- siderable portion of those parishes were totally unconnected with Alford, and at 16 February 1838, a great distance from Alford, it would have afiected them peculiarly to have made that additional union. 1316. Is not Alford a market town ? — It is. 1317. Is it not centrally situated between Louth and Spilsby? — They form almost a triangle; I beg to state that a memorial was not only presented to me, but sent to the Commissioners, and my attention was particularly directed by them to the point, and it was not done hastily ; the unions were delayed for a considerable time, and the greatest possible attention was given to the subject. prior to any thing being decided ; and it was after much trouble, and certainly much anxiety, that at last it was decided to unite them into two unions, as pre- ferable to three. 1318. That was contrary to the wish of the magistrates, who were nearly unr^jiimous, contrary to the wish of the intelligent yeomen, of whom there is a great number in that part of the county, and of the landed proprietors resident, was it not ? — No, I contend quite the contrary as regards the whole district; as regards those just in the Alford district, it was so, but not otherwise ; for instance, I remember perfectly well holding a meeting in the Court-house at Spilsby, at which I had a very numerous attendance, and the Alford gentlemen attended there, and it was put to the meeting, and I may say that the Alford people had no chance; I should say that the meeting was ten to one in favour of the two unions instead of three. 1319. Do not the larger farmers in that country usually live upon the wolds, and at the same time farm those lands ? — They do. 1320. Would not the consequence of that be, that smaller farmers of less intelli- gence would be more generally elected as guardians from those places in the low districts which are at a distance from the centre of the union? — No, I do not think it would ; because I can bring to my mind some gentlemen, whom I con- sider to be the most intelli2:ent of that district, who certainly come from the low- lands, and I can give you the names. 1321. Then you are perfectly satisfied with the composition of your boards of guardians, both in the Louth and Spilsby Unions? — I think they are very good boards. 1322. How many relieving officers are there in the Louth Union? — I think three ; I am not certain. 1323. And those three or four have to communicate relief to those who want it in a population of 23,000 over 88 parishes? — Yes; in some of which 88 parishes there is not one single pauper. 1324. Extending from one side of the union to the other, how many miles ? — I think from one side of the union to the other may be perhaps 22 miles, take it the longest way. 1325. How far isTrusthorpe in the union of Louth from Louth ? — Trusthorpe is a great distance, and there are two or three parishes, which, as regards the distance, are at an inconvenient distance; Trusthorpe is 16 miles, it is on the sea-coast. I32(i. How far is Trusthorpe from Alford ? — About eight miles. 1 327. What population does Trusthorpe contain ? — Two hundred and eighty-six inhabitants. 1328. What was expended upon the poor in the years 1834, 1835 and 1836 ? —On the average it was 259 /. 1329. So that pauperism does exist in that parish ? — It does. 1330. Do you not think that the distance to which Trusthorpe is removed from Louth would prevent the guardian of that parish from attending, generally speak- ing, the meetings of the board of guardians of the Louth Union? — I do not; for that is one of the gentlemen, and particularly the man upon whom I had my eye when I said that I did not know more intelligent gentlemen than some of those who came from the lowlands, 1331. His attendance then is regular ? — I am not regular in my attendance upon the Louth Union, quite the contrary at any of the unions, but when I have been there he has been generally present ; I do not mean to say always, but generally. 1332. Though this gentleman may attend, supposing the guardian of a lower scale had been elected, would it be likely, if Louth was not his market town, that he would ride if) miles to attend the meetings of the board ?— But 1 contend that Louth is the market town of all that part of the country, and that Alford is a small market ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 3 .^^3 .«o'.\^Si -^ market as compared with that of Louth ; Loulh is one of the largest market towns E. Guhon, Esq.-"*- in the county of Lincohi ; and allow me to say, that knowing the inconvenience that must result for a short time jjcrhaps to one or two parishes,, for I believe that 16 February 1838. it will only be for a short time, I directed specially that the relieving officer should visit one or two of those parishes at least twice a week, if not oftener. < <» t?nm(6 1333. Chairman.'] Will you state the parishes in that particular union which you desired the relieving oflicerto visit twice a week? — -Trusthorpe, JMablethorpe^.. Theddlethorpe and Mattley are the parishes to which I particularly alluded. >M?.r!03 1334. And those parishes you desired the relieving officer to visit twice a week ?q —I did, because of their distance. lu 1335. Are you aware whether he continues to visit them twice a week ?— M believe he does ; those were my instructions, and I have no reason to think he disobeys. 1336. Mr. Aliles.'] It is necessary, upon a person being impoverished andg; obliged to go upon the parish fund, that he should first of all make application tof the relieving officer? — Yes. ,.,'"^ 1337. If the relieving officer does not give him sufficient for his necessities, be! has an appeal, has he not, to the board of guardians ? — He has, and in case af- urgent necessity, to the overseer. 1338. Must he not, upon that appeal, appear in person at the board ? — No ; he may not only appeal to the board of guardians, but he may appeal to the guardian ■ of the parish, and have his case represented in that way. 1339. Is it not of the greatest possible utility, in forming unions, that not only thei'F convenience of the rate-payer should be looked to, but likewise that of the poor man? — Most decidedly. ^ l- 1340. Do you conceive that it is convenient to the poor man, in order to gara c: the relief necessary to eke out his subsistence, that he should travel to and frav 32 miles ? — I do not ; I think it a great inconvenience, but I do consider that we ' had only a choice of inconveniences there, and that we chose what, upon the most - mature consideration of the subject, was likely to be the least inconvenience, and, as regards the poor of those parishes, that we have adopted such a course as will remedy to a very considerable extent any inconveniences that might otherwise have arisen ; and particularly the overseers of those parishes were instructed to attend to the poor in a more particular manner, I should say, than those nearer ; that, knowing the inconvenience, in fact, and the distance, regarding them, I did pay very particular attention that every thing should be done that was possible. 1341. Have any burnings lately taken place in that district? — I am not aware myself, except by public report; I think there has been one instance, or something of that kind. 1342. Has that been upon a guardian's property ? — I think it has. J 343. Mr. LicldelL] Respecting the extent of the unions, you have admitted the inconveniences that apply both to the guardians and to the poor residing at a great ■■'■ distance from the spot where the meetings of the board are held. ? — Yes, so great a distance as this. 1344. Might it not be possible, after the unions have been completely settled, and the expenditure estimated for the building of the workhouses, which is one of the principal expenses, that a subdivision of unions might take place, connecting together parts, though belonging to different unions, which will naturally fall toge- ther in the subdivision of a county where a board of guardians may be held, but each subdivision maintaining the same right that it now has in the erection of the workhouses applying to the unions as they now stand r — I conceive that whatever inconveniences may be felt upon the first introduction of the law, those inconve- niences, from the o[)eration of the law, must be lessening every day, inasmuch as the operation of the law being to reduce pauperism to a very considerable extent, to a great extent upon those who have now arrived at the age of maturity, to a still greater extent upon those who are rising to an age of maturity, that whatever inconveniences may be felt now are lessening every day, and therefore that, in i^ looking to a remedy for the present inconvenience, we should look at future ■■■i results instead of confining ourselves to tl>e operation of the present day ; and •■ looking to the matter in that view, 1 do not think that such a mpde asthat il.;'>"'' suggested in the question would be productive of general benefit. , 1 ,1 ':;■ , i .1 ^34')- Still the distances from point to point will noLlessen ; hovvever.Sanguine we ■ > ^ may he in our expectations of the benefits to be derived from this law, we can hardly hope to see the day wiien the guardians of each particular parish and township 144- " A 2 will 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Gulion, Esq. will not have duties to perform which may make it difficult for them to attend the _J ! board? I do think tluit their attendance at the board of guardians will not neces- 16 February 1838. sarily be anv thing like so frequent as occasion now calls upon them, for that as the present generation of paupers are done away with, and particularly the old people, in cases of emergency the law gives the overseers the power of attending to them for the time being, and you will find, decidedly, that the business of the board of guardians will fall oft" to such a degree, that I am inclined to think that you might advantageously give them different functions from what they have now so much is my opinion of the lessening of the duties. 1346. Will not the effect of that be, that whatever business is done by the board of guardians will then fall into the hands of one or two individuals who are resident upon the spot, and who, at the meetings of the board of guardians, will be the sole persons to constitute the board ? — No, 1 do not think that ; I think those guardians would decidedly come, respecting whose parishes business was coming on, and that the magistrates, the ex-officio guardians, would always take care that the business was properly conducted. 1347. There may be some districts where the distances are so great that the ex-ojfkio guardians would not attend, and there are such ? — ^That is a great evil in that locality, if it is the case ; but I do not think, myself, that the arrangement which you have pointed out would in practice work well ; I think that that might tend more to what I may term jobbing, upon that locality, than the present arrange- ment of the unions. 1348. Do not you think that when you say it may not be necessary for the guardians of the respective parishes to attend the meetings of the boards, that those parishes will expect their guardians to attend, and that they may be jealous of what is transacted at the board unless their own respective guardians attend ? — Yes, if the interests of the parish were to be protected, that would be the case ; but I will suppose for instance that pauperism diuiinished so much in a parish that there were but two or three people receiving out-door relief, and that their circum- stances are such as not likely to alter ; it would then only be in emergent cases that the business of that parish would be brought specially before the board. 1349. Do you think it is quite safe to rely upon such a sanguine expectation as that ?-^I think it is. 1350. Chairman.^ You have been employed in the formation of a great many unions ; what is the general principle by which you are governed in their formation ? ■ — Consulting the general convenience of the parties interested, as well as the pecu- niary benefits of the district over which we have to arrange the union. 1351. You think it probably desirable, first of all, to fix upon a market town, or some place to which the people are in the habit of going a great deal, as the place where the board should meet? — I do, particularly so. 1352. Do v'ou endeavour that that should be as central as possible, with reference to the parishes in the union ? — Certainly. 1353. What limits in point of distance do you consider compatible with the con- venience either of the poor or of the guardians ? — Taking advantages and disad- vantages together, I should object, unless there were circumstances to oblige me to do it, to go to a greater distance than 10 miles from the centre. 1354. That is, that no parish should be at a greater distance than 10 miles from the central place where the board meets ?— Yes ; 1 would not put a parish to a greater distance, unless there were special causes. 135,5. I" forming parts of the country into unions, have you occasionally found it necessary to place parishes at a great distance ? — I have, and particularly on the sea-coasts, where you are obliged to bring the parishes one way. 1 3,56. You have had some experience of the working of the unions in those districts where parishes have been so distant ? — 1 have. 1357. Are you aware that particular inconvenience has been experienced? — No, quite the contrary ; and the last time I was in Louth, those parishes being at a greater distance than any other that I had placed in the union, I made particular inquiries on that point, and when I was there, they told me that they were not aware that tlie poor had in any respect suffered, or that any particular inconve- nience, beyond that of the guardian coming, had been felt. 1358. You say that you thought it necessary, with reference to those parishes, to give particular instructions not only to the relieving officer, but to the overseers? — Yes; and 1 told the guardians that I should be anxious that a greater latitude should ON THE rOOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 5 ;« fi,.=t Virinoino- into operation the law in tiiose E. Guhon, Esq. SeVar"" " '-<< "Vo° S%';u,luo5; fo,- poc...n,.e, a «.a. deal of .hat of instructions to the oversees ot one p^ ° I do -and I am speaking- to an and other ^-f'Z^i:^':^^^^^^^^^^^ e'.tLe in ^y experience, extreme case, the only one ^'^''^J^^^^ f ;; , . ^j^^ Commissioners ; and there- and duria. the P-g-- f -J Xte" the hSonveni^nces were, I have done it !:^;^"t:t^St"h;^^r^:r;Led; extreme difficulties 1 have met by '\^lrTfru1i're to cast that district afresh n.to union could you suggest any 1362, It >ou «ereco td .__^ Ij t indeed, because I was bound ;f relXEfrllXSor wMch e,... ». Ke.s.e™. a„d .hereto,, ,„ :*;;„ce .0 .h^ .0,*. . could „o. suggest a beue, d,v..o^ ^^^^^^^ ;lg- ?ba1utV;oTrr r.Tssrcl. wo'l^a '. hepos„ble .» .ake a be,,e. I3b4. Ihat mcoip iiicorporation would have been dissolved if Z:';Xsi;adterUk^ to be taken^way from the workhouses to which ^'T^efXtthat incorporation being now dissolved, if you had the power could vou'form a mo e convenient district ?-Not as regards Louth and Spilsby ; I think [hat I couwTith regard to some parts of the country farther north inasmuch as I do not think Ke,3te=rn itself the most convenient situation tor the centre ot a ""^"(36 Without going- into the detail of particular localities, speaking from you. .-eieral experience: dol^ou think it desirable that power should be pven to al ei Sis g^ter than th^ law now g-es to the Commissioners .^-Mostd^.i^^^^^^^ i do, and I am aware of great inconveniences existing trom the want ot that ^''Ts?,;. To what inconveniences do you allude ?-I think that in som. districts the oar shes mipht be brought nearer to the unions that have since been foimed, and in othesTa small unions might be rendered larger without mcoi.vemence or diffialty and ni that very respect ft would be very desirable to give the Commis- sioners powers of altering umons as from time to time they t^ougli ht-in fact I recollect perfectly well in Oxfordshire, on forming tne Union ot Witney, that cer ain parishe were objected to on the part of others; at Witney they objected Sdrdly to take in parishes which belonged to a certain W^-^^^^^^^^ of those parishes not understanding the law were careless about t and , is^^el o remain out of the union-the union was introduced into the ^^^^ "'"§ P™ and the union being so formed, certain parishes were let out, ^ f ^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ very desirable should ultimately belong to the Witney Union, ^^e oversee sot \\L parishes memorialized mi and I think the Commissioners but ce.t^ny me to attach them to Witney ; the owners of the property wished me to attach hem to Witney, after they hiid the beneiit that their "-gbboui-s were deriving I introduced the subject at the Witney board oi guardians more b^n once, and it was neo-atived time after time, and at last so conclusively that I v^as obliged to TateKe parishes and put them into the Chippmg Norton Union which certainly was nothino- like so convenient as if they had been attached to Witney. 368 VVhat is the power which is now possessed by the Commissioners, or any othe^r authority, of altering unions ?-They must obtain the consent of two-thirds of the guardians in writing. , ^ , ■ „^„^ornpd in the 1369. Two-thirds of the guardians of whatever umons are concerned in the ''^iTTr'ltVfm-tnstance, you propose to transfer from one union parishes belonging some other union, you m'ust obtain the consent of tuo-thuxls both ot the guardians of the union to which they are to be annexed, and two-thirds ot the guardians ot the union from which they are to be taken away ?— Precisely. ^ ^^^ ^Yo\x\di 144. 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Guhon, Esq. 1371. Would there not be an inconvenience in altering the present constitution of unions, w ith reference to the contributions that the parishes have been called to make 16 February 1838. ^q ^he workhouses? — No, I think not, because the powers of the Commissioners, I conceive, are complete in that respect ; the Commissioners have the power of makino- fresh averages every three years. I will explain myself by an instance ; 1 will suppose, for instance, that those two parishes now being united to Chipping Norton Union, and having been called upon to pay to that union a great sum of money as their contribution towards the workhouse, the Commissioners had the » power and thought tit to take them away from that union, and attach them to Witney Union, where they have not contributed, then I conceive that they ought to receive from the Chipping Norton Union their fair share of the money expended, and that they ought to be called upon to contribute their fair share to the expenses of the Witney Union. 1372. Therefore vou conceive that the parishes detached from Chipping Norton should receive from Chipping Norton the amount of contribution which they have already made towards the erection of Chipping Norton workhouse? — Decidedly so, and that the Commissioners' powers are in that respect tolerably complete, much more than in other respects, inasmuch as the Act of Parliament does give them powers, particularly with reference to another Act that has passed relating to sale and purchase out of parish property, to make a fair division between parishes in that respect. 1373. What vou would particularly wish, considering it desirable that there should be greater facilities than now exist in altering the constitution of unions, that there should be a pow-er to dispense with the necessity of obtaining the consent of two-thirds of the guardians ? — Decidedly, because it is very difficult to obtain that consent ; for instance, in Chipping Norton Union we could not obtain the consent of two-thirds of the guardians oF that union, for those parishes to go away, because they say, " Though your proportion is very trifling, we do not choose to pay that for vou ; you pay 2/. or 3/. a year towards the establishment charges, and we insist upon your remaining;" and they little think of the incon- venience which they produce to those parishes for such a trifling expense; it is with these guardians a matter of money ; it is the pocket, and it turns upon such considerations. 1374. Although it may be difiicult to obtain the consent of two-thirds of the guardians, would you not think it desirable that the consent of some proportion of the board of guardians should be necessary? — I think the Commissioners, being so totally disinterested as they are, their sole object being the public beneht, and the well-working of the law, that they would not themselves make any alteration unless they were convinced that it was for the general benefit, and therefore I think that the power might be safely left with them, because they would have no possible interest to do wrong to any person, and all their object would be to do right to every party. 1375. Mr. Burnehij.'] Was not Chipping Norton put to greater expense in building their workhouse in consequence of those parishes being added to it?- — No, I think not, because the two parishes to which I allude were but small parishes, and I do not think that any diflerence would have been made in the size of the workhouse, whetlier the parishes had been added to it or not. 1376. But you stated that you thought the parishes, on being taken away from one union, ought to have the sum of money repaid to them which they pay in the erection of the workhouse, in order that they might repay that to the union to which they are added ; in the case of a large parish being added to a union in the first instance, and consequently a larger workhouse being necessary for the union, would it not be hard upon that union that they should have to repay that large sum of money which was contributed by that large parish ? — Yes, I do think, putting such a case as that, that some inconvenience would result from it, but I do not consider that giving the Commissioners the pow-er would necessarily entail such hardship, because they would take all that into their consideration before they decided to adopt any alteration of the kind, and that they would not inflict any unnecessary evil ; in fact, I do not think they would remove any parish, unless the advantages were greater than the disadvantage. 1377. Suppose the contribution to have amounted to 100/., would not, in all cases, the guardians of that union object to the repayment of that sum ? — I do not think that I said the whole contribution should be j)aid back ; I .said that a fair arrangement should be made between them. 1378. Supposing ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 7 1378- Supposing a contribution amounting to 200/., do you not tliink that E. Guhon, Esq. there would be great objection on the part of the guardians to pay even 100/. of it? — I think there might; but even the payment of that 100/. by the parishes iG February 1838. would be a less evil than insisting upon the parties remaining where they were. 1370. Do you think such power ought to be given to the Commissioners in London to order the guardians to repay such a sum contrary to their own wish? — Yes, I do indeed. 1380. Mr. Lidtle//.] Might not the inconveniences attending tlic repayment of expenses be avoided in some cases by a subdivision of the unions for the purposes of carrying on the ordinary work, each party retaining the right it now possesses in those establishments to which it has contributed? — I think that that is very possible ; I think, for instance, with respect to those parishes of A. and B. that now belong to Chipping Norton, tliat it is desirable that they should be attached to Witnc)', because U'itney is their market town ; but I think it very pos- sible that they might retain the use of the Chipping Norton workhouse, that their paupers miglit be sent to Chipping Norton workhouse, although the guardians went to Wituey. 1381. You say that the maximum distance which you do not wish to exceed for the journeys of guardians and of paupers is 10 miles? — Yes. 1382. But in some cases it exceeds that? — Yes. 1383. Are you not aware tiiut though lu miles may be taken as identical in point of measurement, the cjuestion of lime may be very ditiercnt according to localities? — I am. 1384. Ten miles in a mountainous country, over mountainous roads, may be equal to 20 miles in a level country over good roads? — iJecidodiy ; in that case 1 think those disadvantages of distance are equal to greater distances. 1385. In such countries may not subdivision of unions, for the purposes of carrying on the ordinary practical business, be additionally recommended from con- siderations of distance? — Yes, decidedly ; that would be inasmuch as the difficulty of communication was increased, so much would there be additional reason for the obviating of that difficulty. 1386. And you do not see then any material objections in princi|)le to that amount of subdivision which shall be created only for the purpose of affording additional convenience to the inhabitants of the neighijourhood, although be!ongin»' to two different unions, for the purpose of the ordinary practical business?- — 1 think that is a very difficult question to answer properly ; 1 do not see any objection to a pauper going to one workhouse instead of to t'tie other ; but I do see great practical inconvenience in bringing part of one board of guardians and part of another to meet and do the business of two unions together; but I do not think it signifies, as regards the inmates of the workhouses, whether they are here, or wiiether they are there. 1387. Will you specify your objection? — I think that any body of men, when they get to act together, having the interests of a certain locality of course before them, act very much more cordially and smoothly together tiian if you bring two foreign bodies together, because they are foreign to each other. 1388. Have you not admitted already that guardians belonging to parishes at a great distance from the place where the board of guardians holds its meetings, will in all probability almost discontinue their attendance ? — Not if need be for their attendance ; but my opinion is, that in this localiiy to v\hich we are particu- larly alluding, and in Lincolnshire generally where pauperism is low, I think that pauperism will so diminish, that the business of the guardians will not neces- sarily call them together to the meetings of the board, as it now does ; I admit that to the fullest extent. 1389. Mr. Barnebi/.] With reerfence to the change of parishes from one union to the odier, might not the difficulty of the payment of money towards the buildino- of workhouses be obviated in something like the following way : that the parish taken from one union and added to another might pay a certain sum of money to the union to which they were added, not equal in amount to that which they would originally have paid tonards the building of the workhouse; and do not you think that the guardians might be induced to pay such reduced sum of money, in consequence of the greater convenience of being added to that union ? — Yes, I think that is very likely, diat they might be induced, in fact, to pay for their extra convenience. J 390. Do not you see a great difficulty, if that mode were adopted which you J 44- A 4 suggested 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Guhon, Esq. suggested just now, namely, that the parish might have the use of the union work- •i ^^ house to which they originally belonged, because the guardians of that parish could 16 February 1838. not visit that union workhouse which was at a distance from them, and not in their union? — I think that the inconvenience would be tritiing in that respect, because I think that they would trust to their neighbours of the next parish to look after their paupers ; and if they doubted the wrll-conducting of the workhouse, or the comfort of their paupers in the workhouse, they would go, and still adherino- to the instance of Chipping Norton and Witney, though Witney is nearer to them than Chipping Norton, it might not be inconvenient to them to go to Chippinw Norton occasionally ; ia fact, I conceive that they do go occasionally, and that opportunities might occur for their going and seeing their poor in such a situation. 1301. You refer to Chipping Norton as an instance, but I am speaking gene- rally of the difficulty that there would be in taking one parish from one union and adding it to another ; you would do that on account of the inconvenient distance, or some other inconvenience ; do not you think that it would often happen that the guardians would neglect to visit their paupers in the workhouse which did not belong to their union ?— I wish it to be distinctly understood as being my opinion that it is much better that the paupers should be in the workhouse of the union where the guardians attend, than otherwise ; but I can conceive an extreme case, where, if such difficulties arise as to prevent their going to the nearest union workhouse, you might get over that difficulty, by allowing them to go to the other; but I do think that an equitable adjustment regarding the payment towards ihe workhouse might be made so as to obviate all that difficulty. 1392. Is it not highly desirable that all the business of a union should be con- ducted within that imion, and that each union should be kept as separate from the other as possible? — It is. 1393. Chairvian.'] Would you recommend that any parish should be transferred from one union to another, unless that parish should have expressed their wish to be so transferred ? — 1 should not indeed ; but instances come under my own know- ledge where small unions may have been formed in the first instance, and they may think tiiat their expenses are very considerable, and that it would be better to do away with their workhouse altogether and be added to other unions, a portion to one and a poruon to another. 1394. Mr. LiddelL] Suppose all the rate-payers of a parish petitioned to be transferred, would you not think it hard to refuse them ? — I should, and under the f)resent law that is the case, that if the whole of the rate-payers wish to go from one union to another, the Commissioners have not the power of acceding to their request. 1395. Would there not be this difficulty, even supposing the Commissioners had the power, that that parish having already contributed considerable funds towards the expenses of the establishment in its union, that contribution it will be impos- sible to get refunded? — I think that the Commissioners ought to have the power of making an equitable adjustment, perhaps each party giving way somewhat. 1 396. Mr, Frcshfidd.'\ You probably would consider that the safer course would be to leave the w hole of that adjustment for the consideration of the Commissioners ? — Yes, I do indeed, and I conceive that the course which the Conmiissioners necessarily must adopt, would be to co-operate with all the parties in making such an arrangement as would meet the justice of the case, and that they would not do it peremptorily or without consultation, such consultation as would enable them to meet the views of all parties. 1397. You are probably not prepared to lay down any rule to be adopted in such a case? — No, I do not think you can lay down any rule ; I think circum- stances will vary so much, that unless you leave it to some controlling power, you cannot do justice to all. 1398. You have been asked whether a parish ought to contribute to the ex- penses of the workhouse ? — Yes. 1399. But you have said that the two parishes to which you have referred, did not occasion any part of the expense of the workhouse? — Not in those two cases. 1400. And yet they have contributed to the expense? — Yes. 1401. Therefore it would be very hard that they should be called upon to pay again in a union to which they were to be attached? — Yes. "1402. Mr. LiMclL] INiay it not happen in the case of the parish to which I have alluded, whore the rate-payers might all wish to be transferred to another union, that the whole of the guardians of that union to which it is proposed to be attached ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (183S.) 9 attached may object ?: — Most unquestionably ^--nothing is more likely to happen, £. C«/i07;, Esq. and nothii);;; does so constantly happen. 1403. Mr. Scrope.] In forming unions, do you pay any attention to the coinci- *^ February 1838. dence of petty session districts with the union? — A^ery little; on first going out on the service of the Commission, I did pay great attention to that, but I found pfetty session districts so exceedingly inconveniently arranged as regarded market-towns — for instance, great numbers held in the country in small places — that I found it im- possible to adhere to them ; I do conceive that avast general benefit would result to the community if petty sessions districts were arranged according to unions, and that magistrates acting for one part of the union should be enabled to act for all parts of the union. I cannot better explain myself than by referring to the county of Lincoln ; in the county of Lincoln the Committee are aware, that although there is but one lord lieutenant, there are three parts, the parts of Lindsey, the parts of Kesteven, and the parts of Holland ; there are three clerks of the peace ; the magistrates of the one part are not magistrates of the other necessarily ; it may happen that many magistrates act for two counties or two districts ; but, generally speaking, they are not ; many of the unions take in perhaps a little portion of one district as well as of another, and the magisterial business, vvhether parochial or otherwise, cannot be transacted at the town where the union is, but the parties must go 10 miles perhaps in a contrary direction. 1 do not conceive that any possible disadvantage would arise from enabling a magistrate of one district to have jurisdiction over the whole of the union, whilst decidedly the greatest inconveniences constantly arise from the want of that arrangement. 1404. Mr. Barneby.'] What is the difiiculty ? — In this vvay : I will take, if you please, Boston Union ; Boston Union is i o miles from Thornton -le-Fen ; Thornton- le-Fen is in the parts of either Kesteven or Lindsey, Boston itself being in the parts of Holland ; if, for instance, a loan is to be recovered from a pauper in Thornton-le-Fen, the overseer of the parish of Thornton-le-Fen, although Boston is his market-town, and all the business of the union is transacted at Boston, has to go up to Horncastle, a distance of 14 miles north, whilst all the other union business is transacted nine miles south. The same with the signature of rates ; his union business is transacted at Boston ; Boston is his market town ; but if he wants a rate signed, he has to go up to Horncastle, 14 miles north, in order to get it signed. 7405. Chairman.] You have alluded to the inconvenience of the overseer being obhged to go to a considerable distance in order to obtain the magistrate's signature to the rate; the signature to the rate on the part of the magistrate is verv much a ministerial function, is it not? — Quite a ministerial function, I conceive, "save and except as regards the Parochial Assessment Act, and that is more the case at the present time than it will be when the Parochial Assessment Act has been in general oi)eration, for a few years, and the rate of the country is put upon the General •Assessment Act; this is just the peculiar time as regards that Act. 1406. Do you think that any inconvenience would arise from the rates of the different parishes being signed by the chairman and one or two members of the boards of guardians, instead of by the mgistrates? — No; I do not see that any possible inconvenience could arise. 1407. Would it not be a great convenience to the parish officers, their beino- able to bring their rates to be signed by the board of guardians ?— Very great indeed; and to show that no inconvenience could arise frona having them so signed, I will state that in the north of Nottinghamshire and in the West Riding of Yorkshire I have known cases where they have not had them signed by magistrates for the last 15 years, and where they have stated that they have not wanted the magistrates, and therefore have not gone to them. 1408. The board of guardians have the power to order payments from the rates, according to what they consider to be necessary for contribution from those rates ? — They have. 1409. Is not that very much greater power over the rate, and much more inter- fering with the interest of the rate-payers, than the mere signature of the rate ? ■ — Undoubtedly it is; and I conceive that the greatest general benefit would arise from giving the board of guardians the entire management, from the beginnincr to the end of the arrangement, of both raising and expending the money. 1410. They have now the power of determining how much money shall be raised, and how that money shall be expended for the relief of the poor ? — Yes, '44. B they lo MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. €ulson, Esq. they have ; it would be much better, I conceive, that the wliole of the manageifnent .>::*;* . ■ ■"'■ of the rate should be placed in the hands of the union board. 16 February 1S38. 14,1, Mr. Estcoiiri.] Do you mean the poor-rate?— I am speaking of the money for the relief of the poor, of the raising of the rate and the payment of sucii sums and charges upon the rate as can legally be made. 1412. Chairman.'] The overseers are now obliged by the Parochial Assessment Act to g-et the rate signed by two magistrates, are they not ? — They are. 1413. Are the magistrates in the habit of signing those rates*%\'hen they meet accidentally, or do they sign them generally at special meetings of sessions ? — Accidentallv ; I see rate-books constantly before them at the board of guardians. 1414. If two magistrates happen to be at the board of guardians, is it not their habit to sign them ? — Constantly, or at their own houses. 1415. Do any examinations as to the manner in which that rate-book has been made, take place when they make their signatures ? — Not necessarily ; I do not mean to say that the magistrate never makes an examination, but in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred he does not, though he has the full power. 141 6. If an examination were necessary, would not that examination be made (]uite as competently by the board of guardians as by the jnagistrates ? — Yes ; the magistrates form part of the board of guardians. 1417. Would it not be extremely convenient to the officers the boards of guar- dians meeting at the market towns, that they, by attending the meeting of the boards of guardians,, should have the opportunity of getting the rate-book signed ? —Yes. , _ _ _ "■' 1418. Could not the books be signed in that case \^ithout payment of any fee ?— Yes. 1419. Mr. Barneby.] Is there not some doubt whether a magistrate can act as a magistrate while sitting at the board of guardians? — I have never heard that raised before, and practically, decidedly, my experience would lead me to the' contrary, inasmuch as I see it constantly done. 1420. Your remarks relative to the inconvenience of parties going to Boston, which you instanced, must refer to all magisterial business, and not only to that respecting the poor law.? — It does, decidedly. 1421. Mr. Scrope.~\ Are there not precisely the same reasons of convenience to be consulted in the formation of petty sessions districts as in the formation of unions, namely, the convenient access of the poor who may resort to petty sessions for justice, and of farmers and others who have business there likewise.? — Just so. 1422. Therefore, upon all general grounds, it appears to be your opinion that the petty sessions districts and the unions ought to be coincident }' — Yes, decidedly ; and in giving that opinion I wish to give it in as decided terms as I know how, because I have seen so much inconvenience resulting from the present arrange- ment, and I have carefully thought over the matter with great attention, that I am convinced that great public advantage would result from making the petty sessions district coincident with the unions. 1423. Mr. LiddtiL] You do not mean that petty sessions should be held only in places where the unions meet?— No, I did not mean that. 1424. Chairman.'] You mean that the districts should be co-extensive? — I do!'* •■"•1425. Mr. Scrope.] Do not you think that it would be most convenient that the central spot of the union and the central spot of the sessions, in which the business was conducted, should coincide? — I would have the centre of the union district a place of petty sessions meeting, giving magistrates the power to have petty sessions at such other places as they thought fit. 1426. Are you aware that an Act was passed in the course of last session to enable magistrates to divide the counties, for the purpose of rendering petty sessions districts more conformable to those of the union? — I am; nevertlieless I have heard magistrates state, that, practically speaking, there are still great dith- culties in the way of so doing. 1427. You would think it desirable that, through the action of the magistrates upon the petty sessions districts, the coincidence should be produced, rather than by your own alteration of the unions as Assistant-commissioners ? — ^I do decidedly so, because there are repeated instances of petty sessions rather being governed by hundreds into which counties are thrown, than by thtir being on a compact area ; 1 consider that the public advantage must be in your having them over a compact area, ' ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (18J}8.) ii area so that, for instance, any man in coming to petty sessions does not ride over E. Gvlso», E^ . a part tliat belongs to another petty sessions, lor that is a lo^^ «f turie ^^ ^^ 14ns. Are you not aware that petty sessions are very oltcn held a public } houses and taverns, and other inappropriate places tor such purposes?— 1 hey are. i42q Is it not the case that the workhouse, or the office where the board ot mrardians holds its meetings, is, ufenerally speaking, the best and most desirable place of public resort at which the meetings of the magistrates might be held r— I should doubt that ; I confess the matter has never been placed before me till now; but upon first view, without maturely considering it, I cannot think that it would be rio-ht to brin«r congreijations of people of that class to the workhouse. l4'':^o Mr. Lidddl] Besides, some unions have no workhouses?— Some have not, I'recrretto say ; but even if all were prepared witli a workhouse, I conceive that great inconvenience would result from bringing congregations ot people to it in that manner. r i 1 1 ■ •. 14-1 Mr Scrope] Then you are of opinion that all matters ot local adminis- tration, 'including the management of its petty registration, and perhaps also edu- cation, and of charities, as well as of the policeand of the poor, should be extended over the same administrative districts, and be arranged at the same central spot —That is just my opinion, and I think that no public improvement could be made more generally advantageous than that. 1432. Would there not be a great economy in the officering of those ditterent departments from vour concentrating theni upon the same spot and in the same district ?— Very much as regards not only the magistrates but the oflicers, who, in that case, might be useful in filling more ofiices than they now do. 1433. Would it not be convenient to the public, inasmuch as some persons may have business of different kinds to transact upon the same day, to be able to do so upon the same spot ?— Decidedly so; I think that the reasons are so strong for it, that 1 cannot see that any good reason can be adduced against it. , !b434. Mr. Eslcourt.] Whatever the disadvantages are that you have been now mentioning, you would not suggest that any alteration should be made in the law for the relief of the poor, in order to remedy them ?— Certainly not. 1435. Mr. Hodges.] You have stated that it is your opinion that it would be desirable to make petty sessions conformable to the union district, and not to be any longer in their present shape? — Yes. 1436. And you conceive no difficulty that would arise from that changer— I arrt not aware of any great difficulty. 1437. Is not your opinion principally formed with reference to tlie adminis- tration of the poor law ?— No, not altogether so, because I hear such constant complaints on the part of occupiers who are also guardians, and on the part of parish officers who have to attend to other business besides that relating to the relief of the poor, that great convenience would result to them personally, and great inconvenience does now result from the present practice, whilst, as l,S9,id before, great convenience would arise from the alteration. >i-riv,h 1143S. In cases where counties are divided, has not the formation of unions been made, disregarding those divisional lines of separation? — They have; necessarily ; parts of more than one county are placed in one union, and what I stated regarding the different parts of Lincolnshire will equally apply to the different parts of different counties, inasmuch as I am very anxious indeed that magistrates acting within each of those counties for that part of the county united in the union should be able to act over the whole union. 1439. In those counties which were divided previously to the Reform Act, are you aware that difficulties would be created by the alteration you recommend upon the Militia Act, the Land-tax Act and some other public Acts ? — Not such difficulties but that it might be arranged b'v the Legislature with very great ease. 1440. Has your attention been much turned to this subject?— It has very much indeed ; under the present law I am quite aware that there are great objections, but my opinion is (of course the opinion of gentlemen who have constantly acted as magistrates is superior to mine very much in that respect, but nevertheless it does strike me), that the Legislature might very easily over- come those difficulties. 1441. Mr. LiddelL] Take the case of Saltfleet and Louth ; would you propose that the petty sessions should be held at each of those places once a fortnight, 144. B 2 at 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Gulson, E<-'''\ ^'^f^i ntnf mh i^^mnainor. ona .d'iiini'r.rfiyim oinou y^^(i45i. Unpaid overseers have had government of the parish affairs? — Yes,. 14,52. Was there any complaint in those parishes of the operation of the old law ? — There were no complaints made to me. 1453. Were the parishioners themselves well satisfied with the management of their own affairs in those parishes ?• — I should think they probably were. 1454. Is it not then a great inconvenience, both to the landed proprietors who have to attend at the board of guardians, and those who require relief from the parish, to have to walk the distance that you have stated to obtain it ? — No, I think not; because as to their walking a distance to obtain it, I ex|)lained before that that was quite the exception, and that they generally obtained it through the relieving officer. I will take, for instance, the first upon my book, Louth Park, with its 49 inhabitants and 370 acres ; the guardian is in the constant habit, if he occupies the whole of it, or if two or three, they are in the constant habit of attending Louth market, and therefore there is no inconvenience in their coming to the board ; their expenditure was 41 /. prior, and of course they have very few paupers. 145.5. Chairman.'] What is their expenditure now ? — That I cannot state; the workhouse is not built yet.. 1456. Mr. ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 13 1456. Mr. Fk'Ukii.] Siip|)ose a [)Oor labourer in one of the.se parishes, is it not l'- <7«/.?on, Es^. an inconvenience to liini to have to go to Louth, provided the relieving officer — - ~^ „" does not grant iiiin relief when he asks for it?— Suppose there be a poor labourer ^^ ■ ■ "p,,,^f?l°'.,: who, you say, a[)plies for relief, I conceive that the ground of his applying for relief is becau.se he has no work ; he has nothing to do, and therefore he may just as well come to the board, I conceive, as not; hut it is a matter of choice with him his coming to the board, as I before explained he may apply to the relieving officer, or, in case of sudden and urgent necessity to the overseer of the parish. 14',7. Cimnot you imagine that a man who has work, but at inadequate wages;'^' may be placed under the necessity of ai)plying to the parish for relief r — I can imagine such a case ; but the course in such a case is to take him into the workhouse, or the relief would be in aid of w ages, which of all others is the most mischievous. 1458. When he does not obtain relief from the overseer by making his applica-'* tion, the only alternative that he has, is to submit to the evil he labours under, or to go into the workhouse ? — Yes. 14.59. And that is the intention of the Poor Law Amendment Act? — Decidedly so, as regards the able-bodied ; there cannot be a question of that. 1460. You have expressed your regret that in some unions they have network- houses at present? — I did, because I think they are useful. 1461. Will you enumerate the unions that you know of where they have not those workhouses ? — I beg to state that in every union under my charge where we have not a workhouse there is one erecting, and it is only because they are not finished that we have not them. If it is your wish that I should state the unions in which thev are finished, and those in which they are not rinished, I shall be happy to give a list of them; but I wish it to be understood that I have no union under my charge except where the land is purchased and the building in operation and going on. rinnj vt ' . t f 1462. Have you had any objections made liy the parishioners to the erection of workhouses in your union, to any considerable extent? — No, 1 have not ; and the objections which have been urged have been merely personal objections ; there has been no such thing as a memorial presented from ooie of my unions upon that subject. ;;: * j; ^;;;,- . ';:;'; ' ";:'}''■" "'''.-t" '^^'"^^j ^^^^ 1 463. Have there been any meetings to oppose the erection of workhouses ?^*^ None, "'"^ J464. In none of the parishes comprised in those unions ? —I have had no single instance, that I am aware of. ,■ - y-> ' ' "■'> 1405. Is it the practice m the unions which you nave under your care to give loans to labourers frequently when they are in distress ? — -Yes, I may say that many loans have been granted..„ ,.,,s,j, ,- j+ ,,,4 , ' ' " " ', t r '^ , . j^: ijit 1400. iJoes that practice prevail now r — To a certain extent it does ; 1 darmot state that it prevails generally, because I should say that to an able-bodied man it was quite the exception — that it was done in case of sickness, and the exception rather than the rule. ,1467. In Avhat mode have those loans been repaid ? — Sometimes by an applica- tion to magistrates, and sometimes the men have paid it without that application. 1468. Does not the new Poor Law Act authorize the attachment of wages? — Yes ; that is what I mean by the assistance of magistrates ; that is the mode by which their assistance is called in aid. 14(19. Then have the labourers who have thus obtained loans, shown a great disinclination to refund the loans you have made ? — Many persons in all classes show considerable disinclination to pay their debts, anil that prevails among that class to quite as great an extent as among others ; but I will say this, that in a variety of instances those labourers have paid the money themselves without any trouble, and the very circumstance of their .so doing, I conceive, shows that they may save up previous to the contingency, instead of paying the debt afterwards. , 1470. In one of your answers given this morning, you stated that frequent applications had been made to the magistrates to obtain the repayment of those loans ? — I say that applications have several times been made, I will not say fretiuently. 1471. Have }'ou been present when an examination has been gone into as to the reason for not repaying those loans, before the magistrates? — Never; it is no part of my duty, nor could I afford the time. 1472. Mr. IVidkcr.'] Are applications for loans numerous in the unions which you superintend ? — They are not. J 44- B 3 1473- For i6 Fcbruaiy 1S3S. 14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E.Gulson, Esq. 1473- For insTanco, in one of the common sized unions, are you aware how many ai)plications are made in the course of a quarter? — I do not think there are co. 1474. Is it perfectly notorious among the labourers that loans may be advanced by the guardians ? — I think it is in those unions where the workhouse is not finished, and all relief is not forbidden to the al)le-bodied. 1475. Mr. Banicbj/.^ Arc the loans generally re|)aid or not? — I do not think that I should be justified in saying that they were generally repaid ; I should think that half of them generally are, and half are not. 1476. With application to the magistrates, or without application to the magis- trates? — Without application to the magistrates. T477. Are many applications made to magistrates to enforce them ? — Not a great many. 1478. Mr. Walker.] It must be notorious to the labourers that loans may be had ; do the labourers, when they receive this money or loan from the guardians, conceive that it is rather a gift than a loan ?— No, because we make them sign a loan ticket — we take their signature for it when they have it, to enable us to pro- duce before the magistrates a proof that it was given on loan. 1479. ^^ there an entry made in the loan-book at the time ? — There is. , 1480. In consequence of the claim having frequently not been exacted froni the pauper, is he not led to expect that it may terminate in a gilt? — I think he is. 1481. Is the claim always made against him? — No, certainly not; it is often not made against him. 14S2. Therefore I apprehend that those loans are very seldom gained back by the parish ?— Often they are not. 1483. Mr. Bariiebi/.] Is it necessary for the man to sign a loan-paper in order to make it valid before the magistrates? — No, it is not ; but we think it convenient, and we wish to impress the labourers that it is a loan, and not a gift ; that is as much the intention as any thing. 1484. Mr. Miles.'] Is not that always explained by the chairman to the tnan before the loan is granted ?^No, we often grant loans through the relieving officer.. 148.';. When he is present, is it not explained to the man?— Certainly. 14S6. Mr. Hodges.] You have stated that the magistrates frequently do not enforce the repayiiient? — Yes. ' ■ , , , 1487. Can you account tor that lornearance on the part or the magistrates r — I must sav that we have in several instances succeeded so ill with the magistrates in recovering those loans, that there is a disinclination on the part of the board of guardians to apply to them. 1488. That is not an answer to the question. Can you account for the for- bearance of the magistrates ? — I think that the magistrates call for a very full and ample proof of the earnings of the man and his ability to repay it, and that it is very difficult to obtain such precise evidence u[)on that point as in the magistrate's opinion Justifies bin) in making the neces'sary order. 1489. If it be difficult to obtain it, is it nevertheless unreasonable to ask it, on' the part of the magistrates? — No, not at all. . 1490. Arc the boards of guardians, or the relieving officers, in the habit of rejecting or admitting a claim of a pauper to relief without going into that minute examination ? — No, certainly not. 1491. Then, in point of fact, if the magistrates forbear to press for the repayment of those loans, is it not, in other words, a granting of relief to the pauper out of tlie rate ? — Of course it is a grant of relief out of the rate. 1492. Mv .BaDieby.] Is it not rather a refusal on the part of the magistrates than a forbearance ? — Yes, I think it is in some degree ; there are a great many magistrates, for instance, 1 find, who do not altogether like this new law, and they do not like to have any thing to do with it, and 1 could name petty sessions where that is the case. 1493. Chnirman.] The new law has deprived the magistrates of considerable power in granting relief to the [)oor? — It has. 1494. It is not very agreeable to magistrates to be deprived of that power? — I think it is precisely so ; and we find in certain petty sessions a very great diffi- culty in getting magistrates to have any thing to do with it. 1495 Mr. Walker.] Were not loans frequently made under the old law? — They were. 1490. And when those were made under the old law, probably you may have known instances of the money being repaid ? — Yes, 1 liave often. 1497. Under ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 15 14()7, Under the old law there was no power to atlacli wages .^ — There £ . GuUon, Es q. "^snot. A • . • • 1 16 February 183b. 1498. Have you, m your experience as Assistant-commissioner, known any instances where wages have been attached ? — I have. 1499. Probably under very improved circumstances of the labourer? — De- cidedly so. 1500. Arc those attachments frequent? — They are very uncommon; they arc quite the exception. 1501. Probably that may be a proof that the labourer's waj^'cs do not vary much ? — It is, I conceive ; that is tlie fact. 1502. In the manufacturing districts where employment varies greatly, can you form any opinion as to whether those loans would be frequent, and whether attach- ments would be frequent ? — I do not think they would be frequent. 1503. Sheffield, which forms a union, has presented probably within your experience very different circumstances with reference to wages ?— Very mucii so indeed ; many of the artisans in Sheffield, in times of good trade, earn three or four guineas a week ; but I had better state also that the employment at which those men are engaged is a very unhealtiiy one, what is termed dry-grinding. On going to Sheffield one fact attracted my notice, tlie vast number of widows with children that were upon the books receiving relief, as compared with any otiier town or district that I had seen before; the circumstance attracted my notice so as to induce mc to maKe particular inquiry, and the result of my inquiry was this, that the nature of the employment of dry-grinding is so unhealthy that men cannot pursue it after 35 ; that at 35 they are in consumptions, and tiiat lew live after the age of 40 ; 1 am prepared to state, from the most minute in(iuiiy of medical men and others, that the oldest man in the town of Sheffield, who has ever been employed as a dry- grinder, is but of the age of 47. ubi.'> 1504. Arc you not aware that there have been mechanical contrivances which may be applied to that jjurpose? — I am ; that circunist;ince was also brought under my notice, and that a contrivance had been made by which tliose men might avert, with a little trouble, the unhealthy consequences of their employment; but because . it was a little trouble to them so to do, they neglected it, and it is very little in use. 1505. Mr. Babies.] Was there not another cause, because they apprehended that it would multii)ly labourers and bring down wages, and therefore they chose to run their lives against their wages, and that in that way the number you speak of is continually kept small, and the wages kept up ? — That would be the effect; how far they considered it in that light I am not prepared to say. 1506. Mr. Walker.] Where wages vary so much in good times and in bad times, do you consider that the system of loans might be very usefully applied ? — :,j 1 do, if the recovery of them was more simplified, 1507. Do. not you consider that the recovery of them would be pretty certain, when there was such a variation between the amount of the workman's yains in good and bad times? — Yes, except that there are practical dilficulties, in this way, that of course the master is only liable whilst the man is in that master's employ; and we have frequently found, that as soon as the order is obtained upon the master to pay so much a week out of the man's earnings, the man changes his employer, and we have to go over the same ground again, 1508. There would not be much inconvenience in making a second anil third and fourth application to masters in the same town? — No; the inconvenience of applying to masters in the same town is nothing like the inconvenience of applying to dillerent masters in agricultural districts. 1509'. In mechanical employment the change of masters is only to masters in the same town ? — Exactly. 1.510. Though wages are so considerable as you know them to be, there is great improvidence generally amongst this class, is there not." — Very great indeed ; in fact, in time of good trade in Sheffield, when they are earning those wa^es, 1 believe they do not work above four days a week. 1511. Do you conclude Irom that, that they do not save anv thing out of the expenses of themselves and their families? — They save but little, aiul I believe that the short duration of life of the hibourers einjiloyed at this kind of employ- ment is not wholly attributable to the unhealthy' nature of the enqilovuient, but to the intemperate habits of the persons so employed ; most of them are drinkers. . 144- i3 4 1312. You i6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE j^. Guhoti, Esq. 1512. You consider that they are so reckless of life, that seeing by example — ■ how soon they are taken away by Providence, they increase that disposition of 16 February 1838. their trade by drunkenness ? — I do indeed ; that they add fuel to the tire, and that their improvidence is extreme, and nobody can go and stay a few weeks in Sheffield ■without seeing a hundred proofs of that ; if he take a walk round Sheffield on a Sunday morning, he will see cock-fighting and dog-fighting, and drinking, and excesses of that description. 1513. You have consequently in Sheffield a large number of widows and orphans ? — We have indeed. 1514. Probably greater than your experience has known in other places ? — Decidedly so ; and so great that I do not think that my attention would have been called to the point but for this circumstance, that I saw upon the books so much greater a number of persons of that class, that I inquired into it and ascertained the result, and it was an interesting inquiry, and I tollowed it up. 1515. Have you found any difficulty, in your experience at Sheffield, as to the proper employment of the orpiians of persons who have died, as to putting them into trade ? — Yes, there is difficulty, decidedly. 1516. Did you find that arising from the great jealousy of men who are me- chanics giving preference to children of mechanics that are living? — Yes. 1517. Mr. Babies.^ Is there any mode of enforcing the payment of loans but by attaching wages ; did you ever resort to distresses upon the furniture or any other property of the party who is indebted to the parish? — No, I am not aware that there is any mode ; you must sue for it in a regular court of justice as a private debt, and that would be a long expensive process, or you must proceed by attach- ment of wages, which being shorter and much more simple, and at once peremp- tory and decisive, is the only mode that is adopted. 1518. Then, in reality, there is only one mode by which those payments can be obtained ? — That is the fact, practically. 1519. You stated that, in the districts you v/ere examined upon, there has been no agitation, nor any very strong indisposition on the part of either the poor, or of the rate -payers, to resist the introduction of the new Poor Law? — If we except Sheffield, I distinctly adhere to that answer. 1520. But in the less populous parts of the country no indisposition of that kind has appeared ? — None. 1521. Has there been any attempt in any way in those districts to create any hostility, a hostility that was not likely to originate in the neighbourhood, but by bringing persons from other neighbourhoods to excite and to agitate those persons in the neighbourhood to which you allude? — There has not. 1522. Do you attribute then the difference to there not having been any of that extraneous excitation where the people have been induced to give the law a fair trial, and in that way to witness its operation, and to judge of it from experience, rather than from prejudices previously entertained? — Yes, I do attribute the differ- ence very much to the absence of such exciting causes. 1523. Do you suppose, if those exciting causes did not prevail in other parts of the country, if both the rate-payers and the rate-receivers were left to the free exercise of their own judgment without any of that excitation, that the experi- ment would be made fairly throughout the country without any of that excitation of which we have heard so much, and which has been attributed to the o[)eration of the law ? — I am confident that it would be so; of course, now that the agita- tion has been made, we should not be in so good a situation, if that agitation ceased at a given time, as if it had never been made, because there is the effect of the agitation which has already been made to combat with ; but most unquestionably, if that agitation never had taken place, I feel very confident indeed that the gradual operation of the law would have qiiieted the objections of the majority of the people in that locality ; of course it will now take a longer time than it would, if that agitation had not been used. 1524. Suppose that distant agitation to cease entirely, do you not suppose that the law would come regularly into operation in difl!"erent parts of the country without any of that violent agitation that at present exists in some parts of it ? — I am confident that it would. 1525. And therefore your opinion is, that, in order to give the law its fair operation, and to witness its effects in the country, it is extremely desirable that that agitation should wholly cease ? — Extremely desirable. 1526. M.| ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 17 1 526. Mr. Hojgcs.'} Are your answers to those questions to be understood liy tlie ^- (^'^^on, Esq. Committee as referring to those districts vvliicli have been under vour immediate — — — — knowledge only? — No ; I form my opinions of districts similarly situated by what *^ ^t^bruary 1838. has occurred in the districts under my own charge; for instance, at Sheffield, where agitation at one time did prevail, we now go quietly on, now that the law has become better understood ; and I therefore conceive that there could be no doubt, and I speak particularly from communications that I have luid with mv colleagues, of the law working satisfactorily as well as quietly, provided it had a fair chance. 1527. When you use the word quietly, is the Committee to understand that there is a feeling of general acquiescence in the new law throughout the popula- tion in those districts where no agitation has manifested itself? — As far as my knowledge extends, decidedjy so. 1528. Are the answers all confined to the districts within your own knowledge? — ^They are, save and except that they give me impressions, of course, upon which I form opinions regarding those districts which are beyond my own kiu)wlcd(fe. 1529. Have you no knowledge, from communication with your brother Assistant- commissioners in any other parts of England, that the law is not yet in that favour- able state of reception? — I believe in the West Riding of Yorkshire. 1530. Even where no agitation has jjrevailed ?— I am not aware of anv thin" of that kind. 1531. Mr. Fielden.] You have stated that the new Poor Law is not very popular with the magistrates? — With a portion of the magistrates, I say. 1532. That comes within your experience in the unions that you preside over? — Yes, but it does not apply to all localities ; very much the contrary ; it does apply to some localities, particularly where there is a number of aged magistrates, persons whose habits and opinions have been long formed. 1533. Those magistrates you do not call strangers; they reside upon the spot? — They reside upon the spot. 1534- You do not attribute to them any improper motive in slating their objec- tions to carrying out this law ? — None whatever, and I should be extremely sorry if the Committee had so understood me. 1535. I'he magistrates, the Committee have understood from you, have a discre- tionary power to refuse and compel those loans to be repaid? — Why, I do not , know that they have a discretionary power upon the matter; they have a duty to ^ perform, and they will perform that duty to the best of their judo-ment, and they will, of course, call for such evidence of the fact that I was speaking to as they think the case requires, and if it is not proved satisfactorily to them, then of course they exercise their discretion. I do not know that vou can say that a magistrate is at liberty to carry out the law or not as he pleases. 1536. Have you not told the Committee tliat the magistrates do not always enforce the repayment of loans when applications are made to them ? — I have. 1537. Then is it not fair to presume that some objections exist in the minds of magistrates that it was not doing right to the poor man ? — Yes, decidedly ; I "ive the magistrates credit distinctly for believing that to be the case. 1538. The magistrates residing on the spot where the poor men live, are they not as good judges as any otiier party whether the poor man has ability to pay those loans or not?— No, I conceive that they are not as good judges, for this reason, that the magistrate at petty sessions, regarding a loan, is just in the same position as a magistrate under the old law was, as regards the granting of relief; and you must be perfectly aware that a magistrate is to go simply upon the evidence which is before him ; and as regarded the granting of relief under the old law, the , magistrates were constantly deceived. I do not know how I can better explain myself upon that point than by turning to a case which came under my own know- ledge regarding magistrates, if you will allow me so to do: "In the parish of Tilehurst, which adjoins the town of Reading, during the last winter," that was the winter of ^ 833-34, "able-bodied paupers;" (this memorandum was made in January 1835, therefore " last winter" would relate to the winter of l :. jU oj 02 njsora en mui \-\oylication of the test that was applied, the test of the workhouse, to all excepting people of good character ; to them the labour test was applied. 1570. The test of the workhouse and the labour test combined, you say, reduced the expenditure from 40,000/. to g,ooo/. a year?— Exactly. 1.571. Was not there another cause, namely, that whereas formerly they had at Sheffield given relief on a pauper representing his own situation to the workhouse board, a change took place, at the time that this saving commenced, by their scruti- nizing at his house and in his neighbourhood what his means were, so as to make that scrutiny more rigid than it had been before '<■ — Decidedly so ; that is part of the system, a natural consequence of testing the cases. 1.572. Is not that very much the distinction between the administration of the old Poor Law and the new Poor Law ? — It is. •.573- That formerly relief was generally given to a pauper when he came and : represented his situation either to the vestry or to the parish board, and his ex parte statement was frequently taken, and relief given according to the representation of that ex parte statement ? — It was. 1.574. But since the introduction of the new Poor Law there has been, by the relieving officer, investigation made in the neighbourhood of the pauper as to his circumstances; he has come to more correct information as to the nature of those circumstances, and the consequence has been, that imposition has been frequently detected and prevented in that way ? — Decidedly so; there can be no question of that. 1575. Then ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 21 1575. Then is not the difterence between the two pretty much the same as E.Gulson^^. when ^ou gave eharity at your oun door from a "?f"^'-"VXSn a corre t 16 February ^838. circumstances ; and when you go to the mendicants house and obtam a correct^ statement of his situation and circumstances l-Very similar indeed , , 576. Mr. Hodi^es.] Is not the payment of the pauper subject to the labour test ''tTvl^t. i;:t r ^ t^^rihat there is a strong affinity bet. .en your lahour test a^id the labour rate which prevailed in many places before h<3 ncnv law .- No ; I think that the dilVerence between the labour test and the If^^";/"^ ^JJ J ^ oreat; and is this, that under the labour rate the farmer was obbged to take "^ Tabou , whether he wanted it or not, and let the quality of it be "l;-^-^^, '/^'"^f^^;;^; that the man had no inducement under the labour rate to make the qual ty of that abou good ; he knew that he must be employed whether he was bad or good, idle orlndu^tnous ; still the labour rate equally provided for 'n^' -f , -' f « ^, that its tendency was to deteriorate to avery awful degree the ^^'"^ «J,f.'^ '^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ was oiven under the labour rate ; then the labour rate was no test at all, a man could Tde^r Ihe labour rate, do little or much, just as he pleased ; but 1-- - P^^^^^^^^ man, in applying the labour test, in a worse situation. We are, n the "o.ds o tTe CommLbirers, in the application of that 'f °- ^^ V' ' tf TnilVd^^^ and the worst pay-master," and we mean so to be ; and it is the application ol that test which makes the system so eflicient. Y^8? Do you wish the Committee to understand that, in the parishes where the labour rate prevailed, it was a matter of indifference to the labourer whether he was- employed by the farmer at ordinary wages, or whether ^'J^£^;^;'^ labour at that remuneration ?-Where I have seen the labour rate adopted o. in use in any degree whatever, the men have been sent round among farmers in great numbers ; thote farmers have been obliged to take them u. turn without reterence to the quality of the labourer, and if the man's wages were not sufficient to sup- port him and his family, it was made up out ot the poor-rate cu„ffi,i,l i'',7q. Mr. MM What test was adopted in the old workhouse at bhettield, relative to widows with families; was it made a sine ijmt mn that they came into the house ?~It was not made a sine qua von ; if they were ot industrious habits, they received out-door relief. 01 ff: 1 1 -. a ,,„..u 1580. What was the state of trade at the time you went to Shettield . — A veiy declining one ; I perceive that the union was formed in June 1837, just during the disturbances that took place in the money market, and the American trade, upon which Sheffield very much depends, was getting worse and worse every day. 1^81 Was any opposition shown to the introduction ot the new Act at Niet- field7-Yes, there was, prior to my going to Sheffield ; I have heard that there was a meeting at which a very considerable number of people attended, certainly above 10,000, at which some very inflammatory speeches were made, and people were excited to a great extent, and petitions were sent up to Parliament in con- sequence. Upon hearing this, I thought, as 1 was in the neighbourhood, that it was but my duty, seeing the accounts of what was stated, and the exaggerations that were given, knowing that Sheffield would come under my charge sooner or later, to go to Sheffield, and try to disabuse the public mind of the misrepresent- ations that were set forth ; I did so, and I had a large meeting in the town-hall, at which I endeavoured to combat the objections of the numerous body that were assembled there, and I hope with some success ; and the results induce me to think that I was successful to a certain degree in so doing. 1582. Did von form a board of guardians?--! did. 1583. Had^you any difficulty in so doing?— Yes; I will state what took place; the walls were placarded with threats against those who undertook the office ot «uardians, and ail sorts of proceedings took place to intimidate piirties, and to prevent, in fact, the election of a board of guardians ; but nevertheless a most highly respectable and intelligent board of guardians was nominated and elected, and have been in office ever since. 1584. Is the rule prohibiting out-door relief in operation ?— It is not, because trade has been getting very bad, getting worse and worse. The Sheffield trade has usually, when the American trade has been at all depressed, tallen back upon the Canada trade ; the Canada trade has always, in Sheffield, filled up the gap which has been occasioned ; and they were falling back upon the Canada trade when the insurrection broke out at Canada; and the Sheffield trade is now, there- fore, in a deplorable state. 144. C3 1585- Under 22 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Guhon, 'Esq. 1585. Under what rules is the relief now administered in Sheffield ?— Under -. — . the same rules as those which exist at Nottingham; they are allowed to employ 16 February 1838. able-bodied men, and apply the labour test, just in the same manner as thev have done at Nottingbam, and we have just got a great work uhicii will enable us so to dOj and this work was obtained under tliese circumstances : a great number of able-bodied men had lately a()plied for labour, and it appeared to us that to find them stone-breaking, or any thing of that kind, in such great numbers, was somewhat objpcti(mable, as it might interfere with the regular course of that kind of labour, which is carried on to a great extent in Sheffield ; we looked out to see if we could not find work that Avould not otherwise be done, and the Duke of Norfolk, through his steward Mr. Ellison, said, "Well I have contemplated making a road for some time, but I had given it up ; nevertheless, if you like to make this road for me, I will allow you so to do ;" and we have work for at least 500 or 600 heads of families for the next six months, if necessary. 1586. Then you consider it quite impracticable, in the present state of the Sheffield trade, to bring into operation the rule which prohibits out-door relief to able-bodied people? — I do. 1587. Can you state the number of operatives that are relieved in different ways now, in Sheffield, out of the poor-rates? — I can obtain such a return ; I can state this, that there are at the present time about 300 able-bodied men relieved by the labour test. 1588. Is your workhouse full ? — It is getting pretty nearly full ; we apprehend that we shall be full ; we have 600 in the workhouse, of all classes. 1589. And 300 now subject to the labour test? — Yes, heads of families; and that, reckoning five in the family, would be 1500, besides the number in the work- house. 1.590. Has anv opposition been shown to yourself since you took the manage- ment of the Sheffield Union ? — No, none since the formation of the union ; there was prior to it. 1591. Do you think that that address which you made had any effect in disabusing the public mind ? — I do ; I have the greatest reason for thinking so. The chairman of the previous meeting of 10,000, or 15,000, or 20,000 people was called to the chair at my meeting ; and the meeting ended by a vote of thanks to me, in which the chairman heartily joined, and expressed his satisfaction to me at the explanation which I had given ; and therefore 1 think I may fairly state that my address had some effect. 1592. So that you conceive that the popular ebullition which was shown against the new Poor Lavv was from false representations, more than from any other cause? — Exactly. 1593. Mr. .Sc7'o/;e.] I gather from your remarks upon the work on which the poor of Sheffield were employed, that you consider it indispensable to tlie clia- racter of such a public work, used as a labour test, that it should be of a nature not to interfere in any degree with the ordinary market labour? — I consider that to be most important. 1504. You stated that the labouring class of Sheffield were exceedingly impro- vident, and not in the habit of laying up against either times of sickness, or pro- viding for their wives and children, or times of want of work ; do you consider that character to be applicable equally to the manufacturing classes of other districts ? — Where wages are high, I do decidedly. 159,5. Do you think that that could be proved in other manufacturing districts, generally, by a return of the savings banks in those districts as compared with the savings banks in the agricultural? — I do decidedly. 1596. Have you ever contemplated, such being the comparative improvidence of the workmen in manufacturing districts, highly paid at times, the propriety of requiring the employers of those labourers, at times when wages are high, to lay up some proportion of those wages as a fund for the men to resort to under those emergencies ? — I have, u|jon the same principle that in some of the public departments, I beheve the army and navy, they are obliged to do that to a certain extent ; and I have decidedly thought, after the most mature consideration that I have given the subject, that it would be a very great public benefit to the men themselves. 1-597. Chairman.'] Do you think it would be possible to interfere by law with the free contract which is made between the employer of labour and the labourer? —That ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 23 — That is rather a subject for the Legislature to decide upon than myself; I am e, Gulson, Esq. not at all prepared to mark out such a plan. i.5gS. Mr. Scrope.] Would it be any further interference in principle than the 16 February 1838, law has already made in attaching the wages of labourers under the Poor Law Amendment Act? — I do think that the two cases are not at all analogous. 1599. Is not the difference merely this, that in the one case the wages would be attached in the contemplated anticipation of the necessity of having recourse to them as an insurance against destitution or accident ; in the odier case the wages are attached when tliat necessity has occurred ? — That is the only difference, I conceive, that in the one case the man has already received his benefit, and upon certain terms ; in the other the law compels him to do that beforehand. t6oo. Mr. Baiiiei.] I collect that what you mean by the work-people in the manufacturing districts being improvident amounts to this, that when men earn large wages they are apt to he tempted from their work, and to enter upon habits of dissipation ? — Yes, 1601. And that if the same circumstances existed in the agricultural districts, that is, very high wages, they would be tempted into the same vices, and would fall into the same errors ? — To a considerable degree, although I cannot admit that they would to the same extent, for this reason : I think the very nature of tlie emplovment in those manufacturing districts congregates a great number of men together, and wherever that is the case, they are more apt and predisposed to in- dulge one with another than they are in the agricultural districts, where they are not so congregated. 1602. Supposing a man in a manufacturing district to earn 125. a week, and in an agricultural district to earn the same sum of money ; do you suppose that the man in the manufacturii.g district would be more prone to intemperance than the man in the agricultural district? — I think that he would, having such examples before him ; I do not think that he naturally is, but I think that the man with 12 s. a week in a manufacturing district is at work with a set of men in a manufactory, and is thereby tempted to join them, when a man in an agricultural district is not placed in the same temptation. 1603. Mr. Mites.'] Lito how many unions have you divided the county of Not- tingham ? — Eight; Nottingham, Radford, Basford, Bingham, Mansfield, Southwell, Newark, to which a considerable portion of Lincolnshire is attached, Worksop and East Retford, a small portion of Nottinghamshire being attached to Gainsboro' Union. 1604. H()w many of those are manufacturing, and how many are agricultural parishes?— I conceive that Nottingham and Radford are strictly manufacturing, that Basford largely partakes of manufacturing, and that Mansfield also largely partakes of manufacturing. 1605. In what state did you find the poor there upon your forming that union.? I found two very good Gilbert incor|Jorations existing, the one at Southwell, and the other at Basford ; the other portion of the district was managed in the same way that districts generally are, save and except that at Bingham the workhouse system had been adopted to a very great extent, and that the whole district had benefited by the example. 1606. Then you found a great difference in respect to pauperism between those parishes which had not united in the incorporated Gilbert workhouses, and those which had? — I did not find much difierence exist between the parishes united under the Gilbert incorporations and the other parishes in Nottinghamshire, except the district around Bingham, which was decidedly very much lower than* any of them. 1607. Do you conceive that Basford is partly agricultural and partly manufac- turing? — I do. 160S. Do you recollect the number of persons that were in the workhouse pre- viously to your commencing operations ? — I think 120. 1609. Wliat are the numbers now? — Three hundred and eight. ifiu). What system of management did you find in operation in the Basford workhouse ? — When I went to Basford, trade was remarkably good. i6ii. What is the trade of Basford ? — The same as at Nottingham, lace and hosiery, and consequently the pressure upon the rate was comparatively light; but I conceive that the administration both at Basford and at Southwell were faulty, necessarily faulty, under the law, and that what good they did was by evading the law, rather than by carrying it out. *44- c 4 1612. In 24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Guhon, Esq. l6l2. In what way, by evading a clause in the Gilbert Act? — A clause in the — • Gilbert Act states that the able-bodied shall be employed near their own homes ; lo February 1838. whereas the practice that prevailed was to hold the workhouse up to those people, and in fact, to a certain extent, to adopt the workhouse system. 1613. Did you find a good attendance meet you when you first summoned the board of guardians at Basford ? — -Yes, when the board of guardians was summoned the first time, every body came. 1614. Did the ex-officio guardians attend r — They did. 1615. Have they since withdrawn their attendance? — Many of them have; generally speaking they have. 1616. Do you recollect any order being sent to the overseers of the parishes within the Basford Union relative to the construction they were to put upon cases of emergency? — Yes, I do, perfectly well. 1617. Will you read that order? — " At a meeting of the guardians, held this day, the following resolutions were passed, a copy of which I am directed to for- ward you, That from and after this day no bills or other allowances will be paid, contracted by overseers, except such as have been provided in food, in cases of urgent necessity to prevent starvation and destitution, till the board meets ; such cases to be then represented." )6i8. What is the date of that ? — November the 15th. 1619. Upon whose suggestion was this order sent? — It was not an order sent ; it was a resolution of the board of guardians ; no such order has emanated from the Commissioners, but I took part in that discussion, and it was with my con- currence that that resolution was framed. i()20. Is that your sense of the only case of emergency that may exist ?— I think that that resolution was called for by the circumstances of Basford Union ; the overseers were in the habit of giving relief to a very great extent which the law did not allow, and parties had been taking very great liberties w ith the powers which they were invested with, and it was by way of instructions to the overseers that that resolution was passed. 1621. Is not the overseer empowered by the 54th clause to give relief, in cases of sudden and urgent necessity, in articles of absolute necessity ?^ — Most de- cidedly so. 1622. Do you not think thattherelief that shall be administered by the overseers is better defined by the 62d clause, in which it is stated that in cases of urgent necessity, in which temporary relief is to be afforded, it is to be given in food or temporary lodging? — Yes, that I conceive to be the construction. 1623. Then do you not think that it would have been more liberal to have put the words mentioned in the Act for the resolution, rather than to specify the article of food alone, allowing the person to die of starvation ? — The very words prevent starvation. 1624. Do you conceive that under that order, considering the description of persons overseers generally are, they would have aflbrded temporary lodging? —Yes, I do, and I know practically that they have, and that that resolution which is produced must not be taken isolated and by itself ; instructions were given to the overseers in that union, similar to the instructions which were given elsewhere ; the overseers having acted under the old Gilbert's Incorporation, they would not believe that they were to be restrained from so acting under the new law, and they exceeded their power to such an extent, that we were obliged time after time to send them instructions, and constant difficulties arose, and it was solely in conse- quence of those difficulties, and their non-observance of the instructions time after time given to them, that that resolution was adopted. 1625. Chairman?^ Are you of opinion that if a poor person represents himself to be in want of the absolute necessaries of life, either under your instructions, under any regulations of the Commissioners, or under the provisions of the Act of Parliament, the overseer would be justified in refusing that relief? — Certainly not ; he would be responsible decidedly if he did. 1626. That relief must be given in the articles of absolute necessity? — It must. 1627. In your opinion do articles of absolute necessity include food, medicine and lodging ? — They do. 1628. And clothes? — Yes, clothes in an extreme case ; not if a man was badly clothed, to clothe him well, and that was a great point upon which the over- seers exceeded their powers ; the overseers in the parishes of Basford Union were ill iC Febru.oiy 1838. ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT (1838.) 25 in the constant habit of giving clothes, 2 I. and 3 /. worth ; if persons represented ^. Gnhon, Es< that they wanted clothing, the overseers gave them clothes without any inquiry. 1629. Without reference to the practice in Basford, aud with regard to the con- struction of the Act, you are of opinion that the overseer would not be justified in withholding relief under the circumstances I have named? — I am. 1630. Have you ever interfered in preventing an overseer giving relief in those instances? — Never, save and except to that extent under the circumstances that I have just alluded to, and that was done with tiie concurrence of the board of guardians. /i?ii . 1631. How could the board of guardians be justified, or how could you be jus- tified, in describing the circumstances of a case of emergency differently from the general regulations of the Commissioners or the Act of Parliament r — We should not be justified ; the Act of Parliament is peremptory. 1632. Do you consider that resolution of the board of guardians, passed, as you state, with your concurrence, to be in violation of the Act of Parliament, or the regulations of the Commissioners? — I do not indeed, under the circumstances in which it was passed at Basford. 1633. Iri spite of that resolution, adopted with your concurrence, if a person had presented himself to any of the overseers or parish otficers within that union in a state of destitution, without food, without lodging, without clothes, or in want of medicine, would the overseers, under that resolution, have been justified in refusing that assistance ? — They w ould not have been justified ; and since that resolution has been passed, they have invariably' acted in the way you have men- tioned. rr.1 -''•'* '^/v^ •'^''^ i^ rtr5">'i''i:«,Ti 1634. What was the eflfect of the resolution? — The effect of the resolution was, practically, merely to prevent them from giving that which, under the law, they were not justified in giving. > la ikif^d ^di'al f>i^-{^ P^^-f:f^^0 1635. Mr. JlJiks.] Still even the plain sense of the terms would not warrant those overseers giving any thing but food ? — It has not practically done so. 1C36. But still the wording is so? — No, it would only prevent them from giving that which was not necessary, to prevent starvation or destitution. 1637. Mr. Hodycs.^ Can you produce any bills which have been allowed to overseers in consequence of their having given a more literal construction to that resolution ? — Plenty. 1638. Then that resolution has never been acted upon? — It has not been acted upon literally. 1639. ChairmanJ] This resolution limits the assistance which can be given by overseers in cases of urgent necessity to food ? — That was not the intention ; it was to limit them from giving any thing else than was necessary to prevent people from starving or being destitute, and without defining what it was; it would have been better perhaps if the food had been left out, which was the intention, and so it was at the meeting, and such has been the practice. 1640. Do not you think it rather an unfortunate expression to introduce a limitation confining the relief to food, when the regulations of the Commissioners and the Act of Parliament would have authorized the overseer to have given relief not only in food, but in clothes and medicine? — Yes. 1641. '^ix. Miles. ~\ Would he not have been justified, under that order, in re- fusing any other relief than that of food ? — No, he would not. 1642. Then did you not put him in this predicament, that either he must dis- obey the board of guardians, or he must disobey the law ?— If you read that literally, without connexion with the circumstances under which it was given, it was so; but it was not really so, because it was given in connexion with those circumstances, and he fully understood it; and it has been acted upon ever since. 1643. Mr. Scrope.^ The overseer, knowing the feeling of the guardians, would not be likely to construe it in that sense ? — He would not, and has not. 1644. Mr. Miles.~\ What was the reason that the ex-oJ]icio magistrates who first attended your board withdrew themselves ? — It was this : a visitor of the old incor- poration had managed the incorporation to a considerable degree by himself, or at least practically so ; he was made chairman, by my advice, of the board of guar- dians, and the board of guardians would not allow the management to be conducted in the manner in which it had hitherto been conducted by the visitor ; they com- plained of the exclusive manner in which it was done ; open complaints were made to him, and unpleasant observations took place between them in consequence, and he withdrew long before the passing of this resolution ; the chairman of the board 144- D of 26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE, &c. E. Gulson, Esq. of guardians at the time this resolution was passed is the chairman at this day, ■ now a magistrate of the county, and constantly attends. 16 February 1838. 1645. Did you, upon looking over the different books of relief previous to forming the union, scratch out therefrom all the payments made by magistrates' orders for all bastards born previously to the Poor Law Amendment Act? — Cer- tainly not, nor do I understand what the question means ; I neither had the power of doing it, nor would there have been any use in my doing it, that I am aware of. 1646. Then am I to understand that relief is still given to those bastards born previously to the passing of the Poor Law Amendment Act, in parishes within the union of Basford, upon whom orders of magistrates have been made ? — Not out-door relief. 1 647. Do you apply to magistrates to enforce orders upon the putative father ? — Where the children are chargeable, we do. 1 648. In case you cannot come at the father, do you take that child into the workhouse ? — Certainly. 1649. At what age do you take the children into the workhouse? — At any age that that child can be, because it must now be nearly four years of age. 1 6.50. Do you make it one of the stipulations of relief, that the mother should come into the workhouse with the child ? — The Poor Law Amendment Act de- clares that the mothers of bastard children born since the passing of the Poor Law Amendment Act shall be answerable for the maintenance of their children, consequently we do order the mothers of the children born since the passing of the Poor Law Amendment Act into the house with them, but not the motTiers of the children that were born previous to the Poor Law Amendment Act. 1651. M.T.Estcourt.'] You receive the children, but not the mothers? — Yes, if she chooses. 1652. Mr. Miles.'] But you never make it one of the conditions of relief, that the mother shall come in ? — Not of those that were born previous to the passing of the Poor Law Amendment Act. 1653. That has not been at all your case in any of the unions you have formed ? — No, it has not. 1654. Do you conceive that they are entirely excluded, as the law at present stands, from being, as it were, affiliated to the mother ? — I do, and that is the dis- tinct line that I have drawn in all unions under my charge. 1655. How many relieving officers have you in the Basford Union? — Three; and I think there is a special meeting next week to take into consideration whe- ther they shall not be increased to four ; I liad a notice of that kind sent to me since I have been in town. 16.56. Has not the relieving officer in one part of the district a great deal to do 1 — Yes, and that is the cause of the board of guardians having come to the resolution to take the matter into consideration. 1657. But at present you yourself consider the district too large? — I think the district is not too large, but that this one relieving officer has too much to do, inasmuch as trade has got so much worse. 16.58. What is the greatest distance that that relieving officer has to go from one point of his district to another? — I should think eight miles. 16.59. Mr. Estcourt.] Is that a populous part? — No, quite the contrary. 1660. That is not a manufacturing part? — No. i66t. Mr. Miles.] Do you conceive that it is too large a population; suppose one relieving officer has 15 parishes with a population of 20,000, very widely separated, to attend to ?— Yes, if it were spread over a wide space, I do. 1662. And suppose that the relieving officer, besides, should have upon his books 800 paupers, and 400 different payments to make during the year ? — Yes, that is the opinion of the board of guardians, and resulting from which is this special meeting. 1663. They are about to make a different arrangement? — They are. FOURTH REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT AC WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printtd, 16 Febniary 1838, 144. FIFTH REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT; WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed, ig February 1838. 145. [ n ] Luna, 2-]' die Novembris, 1837. Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the Administration of the Relief of the Poor, under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act. Ordered, That the Committee consist of Twenty-one Members: Lord John Russell. Mr. Ward. Mr. Fazakerley. Lord Viscount Howick. Mr. Richard Walker. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Poulett Scrope. Mr. Villiers. Mr. Baines. Mr. Miles (Somerset). Mr. Bollin". Mr. Law Hodges. Mr. Lister. Mr. Chichester. Sir Thomas Fremantle. Mr. Slaney. Mr. Barneby. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Liddell. Mr. John Fielden, ■ Mr. Estcourt (Devizes). Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers and Records. Orrfererf, That Five be the Quorum of the Committee. ^ Jovis, 8° die Februarii, 1838. Ordered, That power be given to the Committee to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House. THE REPORT p. iii MINUTES OF EVIDENCE - - p. 1 C iii ] REPORT. THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the Administration of the Relief of the Poor under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Pi;ovisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act ; and who were empowered to report the Minutes of Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House : — TTAVE taken some further Evidence, which they have agreed to report to Tlie House. 19 February 1838. M5. IV ^Ss immiiii'i d J ^1 ^ U I V d i ^ ifl sjiaaMaw ; ■,•1 JDbid .sM .«!i!AH'J JJ.HI' MK VHJ ' Al ,.J1M "luftqcKiiA 9siJ moil ano jgn'jwJs! owj baouboiq •At)j'.$s\')ftA'3 .iM .nciaU b-xolb^S adj moil isriJo adJ j.ea /nt,-.'^ U:: WITNESSES. FAHW f.stftW',' 7iV/rf Pratt, Esq. Edward Guhon, Esq. ; — • . ,: — ...:„'' "i oJ botiot ?, ' i,i \j"'v:: ."ij> p_ 2 "»^i «» t^^'fV. A u [ 1 ] MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Luyia, 19° die Februarii, 1838. MEMBERS present: Mr. Chichester. Mr. Estcourt. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Hodges. Lord Howick. Mr. Liddell. Mr. Miles. Mr. Scrope, Mr. Slaney. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Walker. MR. FAZAKEllLEY in the Chair. Mr. Chadwick produced two returns, one from the Ampthill Union, and the other from the Bedford Union. Tidd Pratt, Esq., called in; and Examined. 1664. Cfiairma7i.] WHAT returns have you to present to the Commit ee? — -A jijd pratt, Esq. return of the number of benefit societies which have been enrolled since the year . 1829, previously and subsequently to the Poor Law Amendment Act ; I have not 19 February 1838. them in a proper shape to put them in at present, but I will arrange them ; the Benefit Society Act passed in 1829, and the number enrolled from July 1829 to August 1830 ; I put the period of August on account of the Poor Law coming into operation in the month of August; in the first year there were 510, and in the second 560, in the third 1 180 ; the reason of that great increase was a new Act of Parliament coming in, which gave rather a larger extension than the previous Act; in 1833, 470; in 1834, 350; since that, under the Poor Law Amendment Act, the next year was 700 ; the next, 670 ; the next, 739 ; and from August last to the present time, about 552. With regard to savings banks, I have no particular returns for this year, for this reason, that the Act of Parliament requires returns to be made within a certain period after December, and they are not now ready ; but of the gross amount of deposits the increase is above 900,000 /. as compared with the previous year; the names of depositors will be found to be 40,000. 1665, Can you state the amount deposited year by year for the last five or six years? — I do not think the account will exactly show that, for this reason, that the accounts are calculated according to the number of depositors, but when they make up their annual return of the savings banks, they deduct the monies that they have paid out, and therefore it will not show the gross amount paid in, but it will show the increase each year. J 666. Could you not give the amount paid in, and the amount paid out, each year ? — That could be furnished by the Debt Office. 1667. Mr. Hodges.'] Can you state the class of depositors ? — No, I cannot, but it might be ascertained from the different offices. 1668. Mr. JVakley.'] Do you mean to say that the name and the address and the occupation of the person are entered whenever a deposit is made r — Yes, it ought to be, by the law ; the Act of Parliament lays down the rule with regard to savings banks, that they shall state the name and the address and occupation, in order to prevent anonymous deposits. 1669. Are you aware of any steps that have been taken by any parties to pro- mote their increase within the last year or two ? — No, I think rather the contrary, in London particularly, that the steps which have been taken bv parties in pre- senting petitions, so as to interfere with the law as it now exists, have discouraged them ; the objects or wishes of some parties have been to prevent their being enrolled ; but if I am asked with reference to the country, most decidedly they are increasing to a great extent. 145- A - 1670. Are 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Tidd Pratt, Esq. 1^)70. Are you aware that boards of guardians have taken steps to recommend . their adoption? — In some instances they have. 19 February 1838. 1C71. Mr. M ilea. ] Have you any reason to know that the increase in the number of depositors is at all attributable to the Poor Law Amendment Act ? — From the conversations which I have had with parties who have spoken to me respecting friendly societies, I should say, decidedly it has. 1672. Will you state the nature of those communications? — The communi- cations have been these : upon parties forming benefit societies, they have stated to me that heretofore it was of no use belonging to a benefit society because if a man belonged to a benefit society, whatever allowance he was entitled to was deducted ; the overseer made no allowance, and therefore that it was of no use to belong to a benefit society, for if he did he would get less than if he belonged to no benefit society ; the consequence was, that it was better for him to save his money in any way than to contribute to a benefit society ; in addition to which it has been stated to me, in letters, that now is the time that parties must look to themselves, as they could not receive out-door relief under the new law. 1673. From those different communications have you reason to suppose that the Poor Law Amendment Act has led to this great increase of deposits ? — 1 have no doubt that it has, particularly with regard to benefit societies. 1674. Chairman.^ Do you know whether within the last year the increase of deposits has been in the larger or smaller sums ? — Decidedly in the smaller. 1 675. Mr. Walker.] May not the reason of that be from the change in the Act of Parliament? — No ; when I say smaller sums, I mean sums of 5/. and 10/. ; the Act of Parliament applies to 20 1. Edward Gulson, Esq., again called in ; and further Examined. E. OuUm, Esq. 1676. Chamnan^ YOU are conversant with the administration of medical relief — under the new law ? — lam. 1677. That relief is administered under the provisions contained in the 54th clause of the Act for the Amendment of the Poor Law, and in the rules issued by the Commissioners applicable to that purpose ?— It is. 1678. In your experience have you observed any thing, either in the provisions of the law or in the rules of tlie Commissioners, which, with respect to medical relief, appeared to you to require alteration ? — I have not ; it has all along been a difficult subject to deal with, but I think the best has been done that circum- stances would permit. 1679. Under the 54th clause of the Act of Parliament, in all cases of emergency, what are called sometimes cases of emergency, and sometimes of sudden and urgent necessity, medical relief as well as other relief may be granted by the parish officers, may it not ? — Decidedly. 1680. Independently of the paid officer of the union ?— Certainly, and is done to a great extent. 1681. When medical relief is required in cases of sudden and dangerous illness, that may be given by any justice of the peace to any person, whether he be settled in the parishes comprised in the union or not?^It may. 1682. Do not those rules appear to you to provide for all parties likely to require medical relief? — They do. 1683. Under the first rule of the Commissioners providing for general relief, and where relief in money is forbidden to any able-bodied male pauper who is in em- ployment and in the receipt of earnings, is not an exception made in case of the illness of that pauper ? — There is. 1684. Should you consider that if any of the family of an able-bodied pauper, his wife or any of his children, were visited by sickness which brought upon the pauper any additional expense, he would then have a claim to medical relief? — 1 do not think, strictly speaking, that he would have a claim, but practically speaking, he has ; when 1 say stricdy speaking, I mean legally speaking ; because the board of guardians, under the 52d clause, have the power, in any extreme case, of infringing the Commissioners' rules, reporting to thein such infringement and in all cases of necessity of the kind which have been stated in the question, the guar- flians practically do give relief, and report it to the Commissioners ; and I have never known an instance where the Commissioners have objected. .16&5. Practically, in case of sickness in a family where llie head of a family may still ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. ri838.) 3 still himself not be ill, is medical relief given, or is it refused r — It is given in tliose E. Gutson, Esq; cases in which the guardians consider it to be necessaiy. -^ 1 686, The guardians exercising a discretion as to the means of the party, whe- '9 Ftbrnaiy 183IJ. ther he can provide medical relief or not ? — Decidedly so ; and it is absolutely necessary that they should exercise that discretion, otherwise the whole labouring population would become medically pauperized ; and it is quite as necessary in defence of medical men themselves, as in defence of tiie poor-rate, that they should exercise a sound discretion in that respect. 1687. Will you tmn to page 62 of the rules issued by the Commissioners, con- taining the duties of relieving officers, and read the third rule? — " Tiie cases of sudden and urgent necessity ;" tliis is one of the duties of the relievmg officers, " to give such temporary relief as each case shall require, either by placing the pauper in the workhouse, or by aflording relief out of the workhouse in articles of abso- lute necessity, but not in money, whether the applicants for relief be settled in any place or parish comprised in the union or not." i688. Under that rule would not the relieving officer be bound to give medical relief in cases where he thought it necessary ? — Decidedly so. i68g. Will you read the fourth rule? — "As soon as he should have had- notice of the sickness of, or of any injury received by any pauper, in any of the parishes or places for which he may be appointed to act, he shall notify the fact to the medical officer, and in the mean time furnish such relief as the emergency' of the case may call for ; and shall also furnish such other relief, in or out of the workhouse, as the case, upon the certificate of a medical officer, may appear to require." i6go. Does that rule appear to you to contain all the provisions necessary for securing the adequate administration of medical relief to the poor, as far as the relieving officer is concerned ? — It does indeed. 1691. Under that rule is the relieving officer, under the certificate of the medical officer, in the habit of giving the sick such necessaries as their cases may require ? -^Constantly. 1692. Do you know, that in compliance with that rule, they are in the habit of providing them with mutton and beer, and other articles of food, which, upon the ceriificate of the medical officer, may appear to be necessary ? — I have already stated in my evidence, that I attend generally boards of guardians at least four days in the week, and I never attend boards of guardians but J see iiistances of that having been done by relieving officers ; and I have never known an instance , where a board of guardians made any objection to so doing, or where the amount of that relief has not been carried to the public account. 1693. Then the authorities by which medical relief may be given to the poor appear to be the parish officers, including the churchwardens and the overseers, tiie justices of the peace in particular cases, and the relieving officers, as well as tiie board of guardians, in their general power of giving relief; such are the authorities by which medical relief may now be given ? — Tliose are the authorities ; and it must be apparent to every one that a portion of those did not exist under the old law, and that every one of the officers that did exist under the old law still exists, and that, consequently, the poor are better off in that respect tliiin they were before. 1694. When you say that the poor are better off, do you mean that the poor, under the provisions of the new law, have it in their power to apply to a greater number of officers for medical relief?— I do. 1695. Does it appear to you that it would be an advantage to extend the number of persons to whom applications might be made? — No, I think not. 1696. Under ordinary circumstances do you think it would be diflicult for a poor person, by himself or his friends and neighbours, to make application to one of the authorities, who may order medical relief? — I do not. 1697. If, therefore, any apprehension should arise from the visits of the relieving officer to the parish being only once a week, or at particular intervals of time, is k not in the power of the pauper to make an application to the parish officers, or to a justice of the peace? — It is. 1698. Is it, therefore, probable that all those parties can be at one and the same time very mucli out of the reach of the pauper? — No, I conceive not; and ho may apply to the churchwardens also, who are parish officers, for this purpose. 1699. What aie the measures, when you form a union, and begin to make M5' A 2 arrangements 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Guhon, Esq. arrangements for the general administration of the union, which you generally adopt for the purpose of providing medical relief? — I have generally advised the jg February 1838. boards of guardians to appoint a committee acquainted with their localities and the residences of the medical men, to draw out such districts as they thought most convenient; and I have generally left it open with the board of guardians whether they will fix a certain sum, and divide it among the medical districts, or whether they will put it out to tender ; and in some instances the one course has been adopted, and in some the other. stu ,3" 1700. Have you very much recommended either of these courses, or any other mode of remuneration? — In the highly pauperized districts of Berkshire and Oxfordshire, in which I was first emi)loyed, I decidedly recommended tender, be- cause we found it difficult to fix a sum ; but in the counties of Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire I think I am justified in saying that it has been left open to the- boards of guardians to do that which they thought best. ' 1701. What was the result of receiving tenders in the counties of Oxfordshire and Berkshire; was there any indisposition on the part of the medical men to give in tenders for their services? — Not generally speaking; there were instances where that was the case. 1702. What was the objection generally stated by the medical men, as far r as you have any experience of it, to the proposal of giving in tenders ? — 'I think they did not like to bid one against another. 1703. Was it the practice of the board of guardians always to take the lowest tender? — Decidedly not; I have seen numberless instances where the lowest tender has not been accepted, and I always made it a condition in the advertisement that they did not engage to take the lowest tender. - ; ^, . * 1704. You always took care that that should be part of the advertisement? — Decidedly ; and I have always advised the board of guardians most distinctly not to place the care of the poor in the hands of any man whom they would not like to see attending themselves and their families. 1705. Was the result of the tender to take medical men in the neighbourhood, or to take strangers ? — Generally speaking, strangers were not introduced ; the in- troduction of a stranger was quite the exception. 1706. Generally speaking, yun found that the medical men in the neighbourhood made those tenders, and that their tenders were acce[)ted? — Decidedly so. 1707. Did you hear much con)plaint among the medical men as to the amount of remuneration under the tender ? — Yes ; I think I may say that medical men have complained of the amount of remuneration, because, in that part of the country which had been highly pauperized, the amount of remuneration was certainly less than it was before. 1708. Was the amount of remuneration, besides being positively less, relatively less in proportion to the number of cases they were called upon to attend? — I think not; and I am justified in that particularly by finding, that since I have left, in one or two of the unions where the workhouse system has been adopted, the amount has been very much lessened in consequence of the adoption of the per case system, from that which I advised the board of guardians to give. 1709. The amount having been in your opinion not relatively diminished must arise from a smaller number of paupers being brought within the sphere of parish medical relief? — Partly so, and partly from the mode in which, under the old system, medical relief was afforded ; because the medical man, under the old system, rode over the ground which other medical men had in their districts : for instance, sup- pose that in any given space there were twelve parishes, perhaps six of those parishes would belong to one medical man, three to another, and three to a third; the medical man having six perhaps had to ride over the remaining six to gel to his work, and the medical man having the three parishes had to ride over the other nine to get to his work, so that, under the old system, the area for which a medical man engaged to attend was a divided one, whilst in the present instance it is a com- pact one. 1710. You think, therefore, that great convenience has arisen from the union being divided by a board of guardians into separate compact medical districts ?— -n Ido. 7711. By compact, you mean where tiie parishes are not separated from each other r- — I do. 1712. Under the former system, the contract was a separate parochial contract butwcen the paiisJi and the medical man ? — It was. 1713. Each ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 5 1713. Each parish making its own contract as it pleased ?— Exactly. E. Ouhon, Vm\. 1714. It miifht, therefore, happen under that arraneenient, that parislics some — - little distance trom the medical man, and more distant Irom him than intermediate iD February i83»- parishes, might he attended by that person? — Decidcdiy so, and often were. 1715. With respect to the diminished number of paupers who are attended by medical men under the new system, to what extent, in your opinion, has that been carried ?~1 do not think, in the pauperized districts that have come under my notice, that one-half of tlie people are attended that used to be. 1716. To what do you attribute that ? — 1 attribute that to the circumstance of their providing themselves with medical attendance. 1717. Do you think that their earnings place them in a condition to provide for themselves medical relief ?— I have statexi in my former evidence, that 1 think tiie tendency is to raise wages, and in that part where the wages were so low that they are practically raised, the man is better able to provide himself with medical at- tendance than he was. . 1718. Without reference to the rise in the rate of wages, was not the practice formerly, that almost every labourer, whatever might be his condition, whether f comparatively in good circumstances or in bail, applied for medical relief, and'' obtained it? — It was so; the whole labouring population, under the old system, 'in Berkshire and Oxfordshire, might be said to be medically pauperized. 1719. Under the present system, the relieving officer in the fust instaoce, and'' tl)c board of guardians ultimately, exercise a discretion as to the libwring mati"s capacity to provide for himself medical relief?— They do. ■•[ .1720. Do you think that those authorities are competent to pronounce afl equit-^t able decision upon that question?— I doJ:ii J T'^'Oi wt ^i&t 0% agsgn:^ Jon bfb ^a*: 1721. Do you think that in practice thhip. 1893. You think the man with several acres of land, and cows, is in a worse condition than paupers?— I believe, and I have no hesitation in saying it publicly at all, that there is a class of rate-payers contributing to the support%f paupers coming under the description of very small farmers, who endure more hardship than a very considerable number of tlie paupers themselves. 1894. Will you allow me to ask you what is to prevent that man from sellincr his cows, giving up his acres of laud, giving up the house that he possesses, and a^t once descendmg to the position of the pauper?— Nothing but his proper spn-'.t of independence. '4.^- c i8fj5. Then i8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E.GulsoR,Eiq. 1895. Then you imagine it a mere matter of feeling, and not a matter of position in society, from ^he comforts that he enjoys? — Partly both; certainly not 19 February 1838. ^3 regards the comforts he enjoys, but his position in society it is. ] 896. So tliat, with every facility of enjoying the exalted position of a pauper, he prefers maintaining ihe inferior position of a man possessing cows and several acres of land ?— Inferior in some respects, and superior in others; superior as regards his position in society and his independence, inferior as regards his personal comforts, and the mode in which he lives ; and I must appeal to any gentleman acquainted with agricultuial districts whether that fact is not notorious. ] 897. But have you been in the habit of being in the houses of people of this description when there is illness in their families ? — Yes ; it is no part of my constant practice or duty so to be, but I have frequently been so. 1898. Are you not aware that, in the case of a person who has several acres of land and cows, there are, in periods of illness, many sources of comfort which are not at all to be found in the cottages of the labourers? — There may be in some respects, but in others 1 do conceive that they are under greater disadvantages than the pauper, inasmuch as the pauper can get brandy, wine, and every necessary that the medical man recommends, and which those people cannot obtain ; for instance, I saw only within tlie last three months this occur : I was in a man's house, wlio was an independent man certainly, occupying a field or two ; he was eating the brownest possible bread, all but black bread, whilst in that same parish we were providing the paupers with fine white bread; and this man's family being ill, he was obliged to go and purchase, or send out and purchase, some of the paupers' bread, in order to make the proper poultices to apply under the orders of the medical man. 1899. But he had the means of buying it? — He had ; but very likely he found it difficult to raise them. 1900. Have you not known many gentlemen prefer brown bread to white? — Certainly. 1901. Do you know that he was eating brown bread from necessity, and not from choice? —He was eating a very different kind of bread from the brown bread which gentlemen prefer, decidedly ; I speak to the fact, and allow every body to draw his own inference. 1902. Mr. Extcou7-t.] This was black bread ? — Yes. 1903. Mr. It ak/ei/.'] You mean bread made of flour from which the bran had not been taken? — I do not; I mean from an inferior description of wheat; very likely wheat that he could not sell at a good price in the market, and therefore he consumed it himself. 1904. Was this a common thing with persons of his class in the neighbourhood? ■ — 1 believe nothing more common. 1905. In what parish was this? — At Bardney in Lincolnshire. 1906. Is it a common thing for persons to eat that bread there? — With that class to a certain extent, and to a great extent. 1007. Should you say it was made of flour containing a great quantity of smut in it? — I say, made of an inferior description of wheat. 1908. You stated that you would be gUid to see medical clubs established ; have you taken care to establish them in the unions in which you have exercised your functions ? — I have. 1909. How have you regulated their establishment; upon what conditions?— We have endeavoured to get as many medical men as we could in the district to join in them, and that a committee should be formed, consisting of those medical men, guanlians, and others who should agree upon the rules by which the society should be governed. iqio. Have you refused to enter into a contract with the medical practitioner, unless he agreed to become a member of those clubs ? — Not in my district we have not. 1911. Neither in Oxfordshire, Berkshire, Nottinghamshire, nor Lincolnshire? — < No, we have not. 191 2. So that the medical men have been all free in that respect? — They have. i()i3. What is the rate of payment which you have adopted in those cases? — • I think the payment varies from 5 s. to 6 s. per man. 1914. Have you seen it a penny a week for the man, a penny a week for the wife, or three halfpence for the two, and sixpence a year for children under 7 2 years of age? — Yes ; but I wish to say this, that it is perfectly optional with the medical •^ ON THE POOR LAW yXMENDMENT ACT. (18.S8.) 19 medical man whellicr he comes in or not ; in all tlic clubs that 1 have atiopted, the E. Guhoti, Esq. scale has been fixed by a committee formed partly of medical men. — 1915. But in a very smdil minority? — Yes, perhaps they may have been in a 19 I'obiuarj/ 1838 minority, but at the same time it is not always ttie case that those who are pos- sessed of the most information upon a subject, although in a minority in number, are in a minority in inHuence. 1916. If you had made it a condition with medical men that thev should not take a contract unless tliev belonjfed to a medical club of that kind, would vou not consider it an act of coercion ? — No, I should not, for this reason, that if I hold out to a man a certain bargain upon certain conditions, and leave him to accept or not to accept just as he pleases, I do not call that coercion. 1917. Suppose all the medical men in the neighbourhood refused to join in it, and you brought in a stranger in consequence of their refusal, would you not regard that as an act of coercion ? — I contend that if the board of guardians considered that the interests of the poor required such a measure, they uere right in adopting it ; but at the same time I conceive tliat no board of guardians would do it, except in a very extreme case. 1918. Then you believe it has not been generally done? — I do indeed. 1919. Are vou aware that the Commissioners have recommended its adoption in every instance in vviiich it has been carried into etfect ? — They have recommended the introduction of new men, unless the medical men of the neighbourhood will join. 1920. You spoke of the Coventry club, but that is a self-supporting dispensary, is it not? — It is. 1921. Different from the parochial clubs? — A self-supporting dispensary is the club or society which I have in every instance tried to establish. 1922. So that, in fact, in that institution there arc numbers of subscribers who expect to derive no benefit from that institution, who give their money as honorary subscribers? — I do not consider that as strictly a self-su[)porting dispensarj', but I think it is fair to contribute towards them in the first instance till tliey have established themselves, and then they should take care of themselves. 1923. You stated that two medical men in the Coventry self-supporting dis- pensary had divided 300/. ; are you aware that there are many medical officers belonging to it? — I am aware of only two. 1924. How long has that been the case? — I was on the committee of the dis- pensary for some years, and until the time that 1 left there were only two ; and I « as there last year, and was inquiring about it, and there were only two then ; and I will state what the fact was : we tried in Coventry to establish a self-supporting dispensary; the resident medical men, except one physician, set themselves against it, and we could not obtain their assistance ; very great efforts were made toobtam their assistance, and perhaps six months elapsed before we gave it up, and \vc were obliged to advertise for new men to take charge of this self-supporting dispensary. This had nothing to do with the Poor Law ; this is a society subscribing their own money. We were obliged to advertise for new men to take charge of this self-supporting dispensary ; we obtained new men, and brought down new men into the town to take charge of this self-supporting dispensary ; they did take charge of it, and have, as I said before, divided 300/. a year between them, and they have obtained an excellent practice in Coventry since they came. 1925. What class of persons subscribe to this self-supporting dispensary? — I could refer to the rule ; but I should say that class which is just above the pauper. 1926. Do you believe it would be possible to get an institution of that kind to succeed in every agricultural district? — I think, of course, that there is much greater difficulty in establishing them in agricultural districts. I think something might be done in an agricultural district, and sometliing considerable, in that respect. 1927. In Coventry you can speak only of the number of persons who have subscribed to the institution, and to the amount which the medical officers have divided ; you are incapable of giving any testimony in regard to the scientific manner in which the diseases have been treated ? — I certainly cannot go into the scientific manner in which diseases have been treated ; but this I can state of those medical men, that they have so treated the poor as to have gained such credit to themselves as to establish themselves in a good general practice. 1928. Mr. Slanai.'] At all events it was so satisfactory, that they were continued on by the self-supporting dispensary after the experience of their merits? — Most 145- c 2 decidedly 20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE K. Giihoti, Esq. decidedly so, and are so to this day ; there is a public meeting held every year, and that is continued to the present day, at which a general report of the number of 19 February 1838. cases treated, and the number of surgical cases, and the number of severe surgical cases, and every thing of that kind, is regularly reported ; those reports are brought before the public and printed, setting forth the number of cases, and the whole amount, from beginning to end, in each year. 1929. Mr. Waklei/.l As these two medical men vvent into Coventry to act in hostility to the medical men there resident, and to undertake the treatment of persons at less than the usual rate of payment, do you not believe that their success may be founded upon the circumstance that they have treated other persons at a lower rate of payment also? — No, I do not found it upon any such basis; for it has come to my knowledge distinctly, that in their private practice — I do not mean to say that 1 know all their private practice — but instances have come under my knowledge where, in their private practice, they have charged as much as other people. 1930. What difference are you disposed to make in the rate of payment with reference to the medical treatment of the poor out of the workhouse and in the workhouse? — lam unable to answer that question ; I think that is a question more for the consideration of medical men than myself. 1931. I understand from you that you have no plan to recommend as a substi- tute for the one which is now in adoption ? — I do say so. 1932. Have you taken any steps to establish benefit societies? — I have done every thing to encourage them, and many have been established in the districts in which I am engaged. 1933. Are you aware that payments have been made to them? — No, I am not, except that generally they are going on satisfactorily. 1934. Mr. Miles.'] Upon taking the medical averages before the unions were formed, have you, upon those averages, made any calculation with reference to the expense of medical attendance per head upon the population r — I have not per head ; I can state to ihe Committee that formerly nothing could be more vari- able than the amount of payment to the medical men in reference to the popula- tion comprised within the parishes which they contracted for, and that in many instances I have found a parish attended for 5/. that has contained live times the number of inhabitants of another that has been attended for 20/. 1935. Does not that depend entirely upon the density of population, and the area of space over which the medical superintendent had to travel ? — Under the old law it frequently did not depend upon any thing of the kind ; it depended, I believe, upon the amount at which the overseer could by possibility get it done. 1936. Mr. Hodges.'] In a former part of your examination you gave it as your opinion that parochial contributions to hospitals ought to be allowed ? — I have stated that in the district which has been in my charge I have, with the con- currence of the Commissioners, advised the boards of guardians to continue their subscriptions to the country hospitals, and I think that in bringing this law into operation it is desirable that those subscriptions should continue. 1937. Do you not think that it would be an erroneous opinion that medical clubs can ever be brought to that state of efficiency, as in any way to supply die place of long established and well-regulated infirmaries? — I do think so; an infirmary is particularly for such severe cases as cannot be treated fairly in the medical clubs. 1938. And, under that impression, you are desirous of maintaining such establishments ? — I am, unless some other mode can be adopted by which they can be more properly dealt with. 1939. Mr fVakley.'] In many of the rural parishes which are situated at a great distance from tlie medical practitioner, have you provided in any house, or any convenient situation, medical chests? — The medical men themselves have done so. 1940. Are you aware of that having been done ? — Yes, I am. 1941. But still where the poor are resident seven or eight or nine miles from the medical practitioner, they have to send to his house before they can get relief? — Or some one for them ; the overseer frequently sends, and we have frequently bills for the payment of a shilling for sending to the medical man. 1942. Arc those payments allowed ? — They are. 1943. Mr. ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 21 1943. Mr. Estcourt.l Are they allowed Ijy the auditor? — They are, as being £• tu/wn, Esq. cases of urgent necessity ; I have never J9 I'ebruary 1S38. unions over which you preside? — I think it has. 1945. Do you make it a condition in the contract with the medical practitioner? — In some instances it has been understood that he stiall include vaccination, and in others it has been understood that he should receive a certain sum besides for vaccination ; but in all cases I consider it very important indeed to insist upon it, that as far as possible vaccination should be carried out amongst the poor. 1946. Mr. Sc7'ope.] Do you find that mendicancy is at all prevalent still through- out the districts that have been under your care? — Greatly so. 1947. Has it increased at all, do you think, since the passing of the Poor Law Amendment Act ? — I do not think it has. 1948. Do you conceive that that is a state of things that ought to exist under a good poor law ? — Decidedly not. 1949. Is not one of tiie main objects of a poor law to put an end to mendicancy, by providing a refuge fur all that are destitute? — Yes, and I am of opinion that means may be employed to prevent it to a great extent, if not to prevent it altogether. 79,50. You think that when a good system of relief is well and thoroughly orizanized throujzhout the country, no mendicants should be allowed to "o at large, and that rehef being afforded to them is an encouragement to idleness and pro- fligacy? — I do. J 95 1. So long as almsgiving is continued, and there is a disposition generally among humane people to give alms to mendicants, you would despair of being able to put down mendicancy?— I should ; I think that although that disposition arises from a very cliaritable feeling on the part of the individuals giving alms, they are not aware at all, under the present law, how parties stating themselves to be in great destitution and necessity can be otherwise relieved than by giving them alms. If a general system could be adopted by wjiich parties should be generally convinced that there was another mode by which that class of people might be relieved, it would be very easy to put a stop to it. 1952. In fact, do you not consider that we must put down the habit of alms- giving first, before we can put down mendicancy? — Decidedly so. 1953. And with a view to do that, is it not necessary that there s!iould be a thorough conviction established in the [)ublic mind that there is a refuge open for every destitute person within his reach, where he can be sure to obtain the neces- sary relief? — Yes. 1954. Do not the workhouses that are now established throughout the country, and which will be uniformly established throughout the country, when the whole is organized, afford that receptacle vvhicli will be within the reach of every destitute object? — That is my opinion, that they may be brought into operation for that purpose. 1955. Is it generally known now that all destitute persons are admissible to the workhouse upon their application? — By no means, 1956. But it is a fact that workhouse masters are empowered to admit a really destitute object upon application? — It is; so much has my attention been called to this subject, that in many unions we have adopted the mode of relieving vagrants, with the hope of effecting this object ; I will take as an instance Bourne Union, which is in. my present district; that union used to be very much troubled with mendicants, and the plan was adopted of providing a receptacle for that class ; a room fur the men, and a room for the women ; the overseers of each [)arish, and all the rate-payers that choose to have them, are «upi)lied with tickets to relieve those mendicants by sending them to the workhouse, uliere they are provided with food and lodging; a paper somewhat like this is stuck up in the union in every parish, and in several places in every parish, on the vestry door, and the chapel door, and the blacksmith's shop, and various places ; it is a handbill, showing where the relieving officer is to be found, and the times and places ; it runs in these words : " Notice to Applicants for Relief. The relieving officer of this dis- trict will regularly visit the several pari.-hes and })laces comprised therein, and here- inafter named, on the days and at the hours and places set opposite to them respectively in every week, and at such other times as occasion may require, viz." Then comes the list, and after the list, '' In cases of sudden and urgent necessity occurring in the absence of tlie relieving officer, the parish officers arc authorized 145- c 3 and 22 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E.Gulsoii, Esq. and required to afford immediate relief, either in medicine or provisions, according _ — to the nature and circumstances of the emergency ; and in order to suppress as 19 February 1838. far as possible habitual mendicity, (which is put in large letters) the parish officers are hereby informed that they may be supplied with tickets, on application to the relieving otiicers of the district (and I may state that they have sent them without those tickets), to relieve all travelling vagrants, not having a legal settlement within the union, in the workhouse, where they will be provided with a night's lodging and suitable provision ; and it is earnestly requested that the rate-payers will uniformly refer this class of paupers to the parish or relieving officers, instead of giving them money or other alms." Now, in reference to the question that was asked me just now, whether it would not be better that the public mind should be made fully aware that mendicants can be relieved in another way, I will state that I think the ticket system will ultimaielv fall into disuse; but that until the public mind, by usage, by custou), by practice of several years, has become fully aware ot it, that or some similar system is necessary in order to convince them that that is the fact, and to make it generally known ; otherwise they would still give their money. 1957. At the same lime it is the fact, is it not, that the vagrant declaring himself in a state ol destitution, and applying to the workhouse for relief without a ticket even, is admissible at the discretion of the governor ? — Decidedly so, and they are never refused in Bourne Union. 1958. Have you numerous applications? — We have not very numerous applica- tions ; I think that I could olitain the numbers, but they are much less numerous than you would suppose. 1950. What is the treatment adopted towards the mendicants on their ap|)lica- tion r — They are furnisiied with the same food as the paupers for the night, a night's lodging, and those that are able-bodied, provided they do two hours' work in the morning, have a breakfast, but we find very few of them stop breakfast ; but to show you that they are not in all cases averse to avail themselves of the |)rotection which vve offer, an instance occurred about a month since at Bourne, very illustrative of that : a man and a woman and four children came into the workhouse as va- grants ; the man, on lieing set to work, or told that he was to work, became exceed- ingly abusive, so much so that I believe blows ensued, but, however, so much violence took place that he was obliged to be taken before the magistrate ; the magistrate committed him to the tread-mill ; no sooner was he committed to the tread-mill than his wife became violent, and she broke the windows, upon which she was taken before the magistrate, and was committed. The four children were left in the workhouse, and a day or two afterwards the governor, by some accident or another, laid hold of the child's trousers, and he found four sovereigns tied up in the waistband of one of them ; now if they, in possession of four sovereigns, chose to accept the relief which we offered them in the workhouse, I contend that it could not be very disagreeable to them. i960. Mr. Waklei/.'] How long were they there? — They left directly they came out of the tread-mill, for their ill behaviour. 1961 . Mr. Eslcoui't.] How long were they in before they were sent to the tread- mill .'' — They were sent immediately. 1962. Mr. Scropc.~\ You are aware that begging for alms is an offence punish- able by the tread-mill ? — I am. 1963. Is it not desirable that the workhouse master should be instructed to apply to a magistrate, or, through a constable, to send to a magistrate, those parties who may come for relief into the workhouse, and whom he has good reason to believe to be habitual mendicants or impostors? — Decidedly ; I would, in fact, ado|)t tlis systen), when the whole of" the unions are arranged ; I would call upon every man to show where he is going, and if a poor person is travelling from one place to another, say Jrom London to Edinburgh, and has no means of conveying himself, I would pass him on from workhouse to workhouse. If they were out of that line, I conceive that then tliey become mendicants and vagrants, and ought to be punished; and lean adduce remarkable instances of the small number of vagrants and tramps that are about, under the union system, as compared to what there were before. The first is thatol Coventry, where we were troubled to an iuimensc extent, (/oveutry being upon the Liverpool road, with mendicants and vagrants of this deseriptiou. I am afraid to say how much they cost us, but several hundreds a year. We adopted the system, in the year 1 83 1 , oi having two rooujs, and taking in every body that chose to come, and setting them to work before breakfast ; we reduced the e.xpenditure of what I believe ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (ISSS.) 23 believe to liave been 40c/. or 500/. to about 40/. a year. In Reading there were e Gu'sov, Es.| 6,000 tranii).s relieved the year before the union, and there are only 800 since. 1964. Might not that circumstance have arisen in part from the change in the '9 February 18; new law with respect to the passing of Irish paupers, many of whom used to he passed, in the previous years, through the town of Reading? — No; I believe it solely to have arisen from this circumstance, that they were liberally treated by the overseer, who gave them money to get rid of them ; and under the union a. more strict system has been adopted, wJiich has prevented their coming. 1965. Mr. Sidney.'] If I understand you, the plan which you would recommend witli respect to vagrants and tramps, would be to pass them in the line to the place to which they said they were going r — \ es. 1966. In consequence, you would do away with or prevent all those who, under pretence of going, for instance, from Bristol to Liverpool, have gone entirely out of their way, for the purpose of begging? — I would. 1967. And that would reduce the number to those who were going from one point to another? — Yes ; begging is folloued because it is a good trade ; stop the supplies, and you will put an end to it. 1968. Mr. Scrope.'] And the mode in which you would stop the supplies is by making it known that relief is afforded to all who need it in the workhouse, and that no humane person need, therefore, give alms to beggars ? — Exactly. 1969. Are you aware of any facts which show the large proportion of im- postors ? — I think in the mendicity societies there are data of that, and I have seen data. 1970. Are yon aware that the good cases, those proved to be deserving of relief, have been shown to be in the proportion of three per cent, of persons in London? — Yes, I have seen statements of that kind upon which I can place reliance. 1971. Mr. Sidney.] Are there any local mendicity societies in any of the large towns upon the same principle as the London Mendicity Society ? — Not in my district, and that causes me to be on the alert for the purpose of establishing them. 1972. Mr. Scrope.] You think the workhouse should be made a mendicity asylum? — I do; 1 would make every union a mendicity district, and make the workhouse the receptacle. 1973. That would put an end to the necessity of establishing mendicity societies by private subscription, which is a work of great difficulty and expense? — Yes. 1974. Mr. Miles.] Would you allow promiscuous intercourse to take place between those who come as vagrants and those who are resident in the workhouse^ —I would take every possible measure to prevent that ; I think that would be exceedingly objectionable ; and in my unions, where we have adopted this plan, we have rooms totally separate from the workhouse, save and except that the master has a door, of which he has the key, by which he obtains access ; and I would not allow them to work at the handle of the corn-mill, at which the other people are employed ; but that they should be kept quite distinct and separate, so that no communication sliould be had ; I think that necessary in every respect, in health as well as every other. 1975. Mr. Hodges.] You have been asked your opinion upon the propriety of relieving persons who beg about the country ; have you not heard it stated as one of the recommendations of the new law, that it is to have (he eft'ect of setting labour free? — Certainly. 1976. If work should fall short in any parish, as under the new law able-bodied men, single men or married ones, cannot be relieved from the rate, can you state any human means by which they can obtain relief, unless they are to go to a dis- tance and get work ? — I would allow them to go to a distance and get work. 1977. How would you protect them from being treated in the manner in which you have recommended persons begging about the country to be treated? — Before a person can be punished as a vagrant, he must be taken before the magistrates, and the magistrates would be judges whether he was a vagrant or not ; and if a person of this description wished to go from one part of the country to another, I conceive this would atibrd a means of his so doing, without begging. 1978. Then you admit the absolute necessity of a certain portion of the labour- ing people of England to be Icgilinjatcly on the tramp in search of work ? — Yes, 145. c 4 certainly 24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Gh/mw, Esq. certainly I do : and that it would be most mischievous to restrict them in any way in that respect. 19 February 1838. 1979. A man who is lawfully going upon that object should you not consider that it was a great hardship upon him to be dragged before a magistrate, and to be stopped in his progress of search for work ? — Yes, I should ; and I conceive that that would not happen under this system, because if a man stated that he was merely going from one place to another, so long as he did not beg, you would have nothing to do with him, and he need not beg, because we would forward him on his road from workhouse to workhouse. 1980. How^ do you think that a man who leaves his parish without money in his pocket can live, except by the alms of those whom he may ask for work, and who may not have it, and who sometimes may not be unwilling to assist him on the road r — Many poor leave with money, and those who leave without have to be passed from district to district to the place they desire to reach ; for instance, if a man came to Bourne to-night, and said thai lie was in search of work, and going northward, I conceive that he would have the whole of the day that he leaves Bourne before him to search for work, so that he presented himself at the next place in the evening. 1981. Do you really believe that a large portion ot those men who seek for work leave their parish vvith any sum of money in their pocket ? — It has come under my knowledge, in manufacturing districts, that men go to other districts with money in their pockets. 1982. Has it come to your knowledge that persons in rural districts leave with money in their pockets ? — I think in rural districts there is much less occasion for them to leave their homes, and that the cause does not operate so strongly. 1983. Are you not aware of persons in rural districts leaving their parishes, in order to search for work, in harvest time, in places where work is more plentiful than it is in other places ? — I am aware of that, but I am not aware, in connexion v^'ith that, that those men beg. 1984. Mr. ScTope.] Is it not the law at present, that a man going out in search of work is liable to be taken up before a magistrate, and committed as a vagrant? —Yes. 198,5. Your provision, therefore, would be the mitigation of the present law, a boon, and not an additional hardship? — It would. 1986. Mr. Hodges.'] Ought not that boon to be conceded to the labourer under the circumstances of this new law, he being denied by the parish authorities any relief, being out of work? — I would inflict no additional hardship upon a labouring man that I could avoid ; I would allow to the labouring man the liberty of going from one district to anotiier in search of work ; and if he has no means by which to provide himself in so doing, I would afford him those means by the establish- ment of mendicity societies. 1987. Mr. &ro/)f.] Do you think that system would be preferable to the old established one which was in use among parishes before the passing of the Poor Law Amendment Act, to give a sovereign or two to a man to go out in search of work? — Most distinctly so ; nothing could be more mischievous than giving him a sovereign or two, whicli might be employed for the intended purpose, or dissolutely exj)ended. 1988. Was not that frequently the practice ? — Constantly 1989. Mr. Hodges.] Have you always, in every instance of a man presenting himself, asking for relief, stating that he was in search of work, let that man be conveyed to a magistrate, to be examined if he could become entitled to the relief which you have described ? — In asking alms I would, after providing him with means of going from place to place in the first instance, and then I would take him before a masiistrate. 1990. How is any stranger in another parish to know that he had been supplied in this manner? — I have stated that in each parish some mode should be adopted, as in Bourne, of giving every person tickets, to produce that belief to the greatest possible extent that we can ; and we must give time for the operation of that, and that in the course of years it will become generally known. I would not bring it into operation immediately ; my plan would be this, to establish every union into ii mendicity society; that the central workhouse should have a receptacle provided for this class of persons, and that each workliouse-masler should be allowed to ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (183S.) 25 irive a ticket upon the next workhouses all around him, that every person moving E.'Guhim, Esq. from place to place, who wislied it, should be received there for the night, and passed on in their journey ; and when that provision is generally made for those who are 19 February 1838. moving about, having no other means of [providing for tiiemselves, I would then take up every person who begged, and take him before a magistrate, in the same manner as vagrants are now taken. 1991. C/iairnuni.] You mean that when reception within the uorkhouse, and maintenance within the workhouse, were provided for every one who was leaving his home in quest of work, then it would be justifiable absolutely to prohibit mendicancy? — I do. 1992. You think that your right to prohibit mendicancy depends upon the pro- vision which you make for the maintenance of persons who may be in want of work ?— Yes. 1993. Mr. Scrope.] Mendicancy is at present prohibited, is it not ? — V'es. 1994. And you think that should he accompanied by this mode of granting relief? — Yes. 1995. Mr. Estcoiirt.] Consequently, as far as free labourers going out in search of work are concerned, your plan would not in any degree conteniplate your taking them before magistrates ? — It would not. 1996. Mr. Hodges.] Has it come within your knowledge, in the district which you have superintended, that in consequence of the denial of relief to families with numerous children, the members of those families have gone among their neigh- bours in their own parish, begging for a meal to satisfy the cravings of hunger ? — I am not aware of any such circumstance ever having occurred. 1997. Mr. Miles.'] I understand, from the general tenor of your evidence, that you recommend a certain improvement in tlielaw; are there any other improve- ments that you can suggest to this Committee than those which you have already given in evidence ? — I have been examined so long, that I scarcely know what I have recommended, and what I have not ; hut I will stale to the Committee the alterations which I think necessary, and if I have already stated some, and should make a repetition, the Committee will excuse it. I conceive that it is very essen- tial indeed to give the Commissioners power to dissolve the CJilbert incorporations, and to do away with all local Acts of Parliament, so as to make the law uniform ; that I conceive to be a most important and necessary alteration. I think that great inconvenience must generally result from want of that power, from having one sys- tem in operation in one part of the country, and another system in another. I con- ceive also that the Commissioners ought to have power to alter unions when once formed. I think that the officers of the union might he brought into operation for other purposes than those in which they are now employed, and that power ouo-ht to be given to the Conmiissioners to regulate their functions in that respect ; I think that, for purposes of police, the staff of the unions might be brought into very effective operation, particularly in conne.\ion with mendicancy, upon which we have been before speaking. I think that a decided alteration should be made regarding the present management of parish roads ; 1 know practically, from my own experience, that there is the greatest iniquity practised regarding the manage- ment of those roads at the present time, and that those roads are made the medium of pauperizing the people, now that other means of pauperizing them from the poor-rate are closed ; and I wish to impress upon the Committee that there is no point which I think more important than that ; I have seen the greatest abuses prevail ; I have seen, for instance, a board of guardians refuse relief to a man upon the ground, that they have known he could get his own living; I have seen that man's relief continued to him out of highway rate six months after the board of guardians have done away with ; it I know that, practically, with vast numbers of people, when the board of guardians have resolved to test them by the workhouse, the overseer of the parish, he being also surveyor, has said, " Oh no, I will give you relief; you shall have it out of the highway rate;" and he has put them upon the highway rate at lo.v. or 12,?. a week. 1998. Chairman.] Is there no effectual control over the highway accounts? — None ; 1 contend that the highways should be put under the board of guardians ; that the unions of parishes, for the purposes of managing their highways, should be com- pulsory, and that they should be coincident with the present unions for relief, and that the auditorship should be placed upon a more efficient footing than it is at the present time ; that the auditorship of all parish rates should come under the one auditor who now examines the poor-rate account; 1 conceive that if you had M5- D auditors, 26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E. Gu/ion, Esq. auditors, who were totally independent of the district which they audited, appointed by the Government or by the Commissioners, it signifies not which, so that they 19 February 1838. were appointed by soujC totally independent body ; give them a power of auditintf all parish rates, to take care that the law was strictly adhered to, and I conceive that you would carry out the intentions of the Legislature, as regards the Poor Law Amendment Act, to a very much greater extent than you possibly can under the present system, I would give the auditor as much as he could possiblv do. Then I would decidedly recommend that the Commissioners should have power, when they found it necessary, to direct the means of one union to be applied for the use of any other ; for instance, I will suppose that in any one union there is a great pressure upon the workhouse, and that we are not able to take all the parties into that workhouse ; there is another workhouse within the same district, or nearly the same district; the object would there be to apply the means of the other union, where no pressure exists, to the one where pressure exists. 1999. Does not that take place now? — Only by consent of guardians; but I would allow the Commissioners to determine. I will instance Nottingham at the present moment ; — take Basford : there are several workhouses quite as near or nearer to some of the Basford parishes than their own, in which tiiere are fiiw or no paupers, Southwell for instance. I would give the Commissioners power to apply the means of Southwell Union, as far as they consistently can ; of course they would take care not to inconvenience Southwell in that arrangement. 2000. Mr. Wakley.'] Would you recommend that' the Gilbert Act should be repealed, though the persons living in unions formed under that Act should be generally desirous of continuing them? — I should most distinctly. 2001. Although there may be no abuses in many of those unions, still you would recommend that the law should be repealed, and that the parishes should be thrown under the operation of the new Act ? — I would decidedly, because it is so very important that the law should be uniform. 2002. C]iairman.\ You think, probably, that the administration of the affairs of the poor under the Poor Law Amendment Act is much better than under the Gilbert Act? — I do; and I contend that there must be abuses under Gilbert's Act, if it be strictly adhered to, inasmuch as they are obliged to find work for the poor. 2003. Mr. Wakleii.~\ Will you undertake to say that there are no abuses under the new law ? —I will not say any thing of the kind, but there are less likely to be abuses under that law, because of the controlling influence of the Commissioners. 2004. Mr. Estcourt.^ You mean that, in speaking of the two systems, you prefer the system of the new law, and therefore you wish to give a compulsory power to the Commissioners of substituting the new law for Gilbert's Act ? — I do. 2005. 1s.\t. Wakley.'] Have you acted in any of the Gilbert Unions ? — I have ; I have dissolved many by consent, and I have never seen a Gilbert's Union yet but where all the good that they had done was by evading the principal part of that law, and also where I did not see great abuses exist besides. 2006. Would you recommend the adoption of any mode of altering the election of boards of guardians ? — No, I would not. 2007. You would still recommend that the system of plurality of votes should be continued ?— I would, because I think it is right that property should have its fair influence ; and that if you did not give plurality of votes, that would not be the case. 2008. You approve of the non-resident owner being allowed to give six votes for the property which enables the occupier to give but one ? — I do ; and I approve of it from practically seeing how it operates; I do see that wherever the board of guardians are elected, it is, in my opinion, a fair and good representation of the district over which they preside. 2009. You would continue to the owner the privilege of voting by proxy ? —Yes. 2010. Mr. Scrope.] You agree to it in theory, upon the principle that it is the owner of the property who ultimately pays all the rate? — Yes, the rate falls upon the owner. 2011. Mr. Wakley.] It does not fall upon the occupier who tills the soil ? — It does not. 2012. Have you witnessed many contests in the election of boards of guardians.-' — I have some, not many. 2013. How ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 27 2013. How many contests Iiave you witnessed ; in point of fact, has not tlie li. Gution, Esq. system of distributinsi tlie right of voting prevented contests, prevented eltctoral — ■ strifes? — Yes, I tiiink it has; if I undersuind you riuhti}', you mean tliat the dis- 19 February 1838. tributiiig votes, both to the occupier and owner, to all llie interests concerned, has prevented contested elections ; that is my o|)inion. 2014. Or rather, is not tlie rigiit of votinjf so unequally distril)nled that the occupiers feel it to be quite useless, those who can give single votes, to contend against those who can give plurality of votes, and consequently there are no contests in the election of boards of guardians? — No, that is just contrary to my experience; my experience is, that wlierever the contests have taken place, occu- piers have carried it. 2015. Where have those contests taken place ?^ — I will give instances; at Retford there was a severe contest; at Nottingham there was a severe contest ,•■ and in both these instances the occupiers decidedly carried the men they pro- posed. 2016. Did the non-resident owners vote by proxy upon those occasions? — To a certain extent they did. 2017. Did they avail themselves of the |)rivilege ?~ To a certain extent; hut I do not think you will find non-residents avail themselves to the full extent ; but, to tell the truth, I believe that almost all the contests that arise are political contests, and no other. 2018. How many unions have you formed? — I should think about 50. 2019. In how many of them have there been contests in the election of boards of guardians? — It would be almost impossible for me to state, because, as those 50 unions run over iGoo parishes, and in a great number of those some three elections, some two, and some one, have taken place, I should get to about 3,000 elections ; now I am not aware that in those i(3oo parishes, which, multiplied by the number of times they have had elections, come to 3,000 or 4,000, there have l)een 50 contests. 2020. Mr. S'crope.] Do you not think, in a great number of unions, that the number of occupiers' votes greatly exceeds the number of owners' votes ? — I do not think that under the old law that was the case ; but I think that under the Parochial Assessment Act, which obliges the assessment of all property, the cot- tages, under the old law, having been exempt from rate, the occupiers will have much greater influence than they had before. 2021. Mr. Jlfiles.] Do you not think that it would be much better if the offices of reh'eving officer and overseer of the poor were better distinguished, and the relieving officer had, in a certain degree, more power given to him ? — Yes ; I have said before that I think his power might be increased for the public beneht. 2022. In what way ? — In this way ; I think, as regards relief, you cannot increase his power, but I tiiink you may give him very different functions from those he now has; for instance, if you were to give the board of guardians the collection of the rates, instead of the overseer, you might bring the relieving officer in there to a certain extent. 2023. Is it not necessary to bring the overseer from a distant parish before the magistrate, to make an oath upon a question of which he knows little or nothing, and upon which the oath of the relieving officer must totally substantiate the charge? — Entirely so; it is constantly the case, under the present law, that the overseer is obliged to be brought from a considerable distance to prove facts before a magistrate, which come quite as much, or even more, under the immediate knowledge of the relieving officer; but he is not the person who can make the application by law ; vou are obliged to bring the overseer to do that which the relievinji officer mijiht as well do — lor instance, if you want to recover a loan. 2024. As at present existing, when unions are formed, does the overseer, when brought before the magistrate, give information as to facts, or does he not rather merely make the accusation ; is it not the relieving officer that must give the necessary proof? — That is the case ; the attendance of the overseer is more a matter of form, to comply with the rule which the law lays down, than for any good practical purpose. 2025. Mr. IJoi/gcs.] Is it not some protection for the pauper that there should he one person to prefer the information, and another as a witness; how would you have the same person as informant and witness together? — I do not wisli to 145. £ deprive 28 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E.Cuhon,Esq. deprive the party of any advantage which the law gives; I would have the same number of witnesses now ; where a witness is necessary besides the informant, FeLiuary 1838. J would have it then ; but, practically speaking, it must couje within the know- ledge of the magistrates that there are many points which the relieving officer is able to speak to, but whicli the law obliges the overseer to speak to; for instance, I will suppose that a man is called upon to maintain his son, the overseer is obliged to go and make that complaint before the magistrate ; so as to settlement, when the relieving officer could just as well do it, and vvith just as little trouble. 202(), Mr. Miles.] Under the old system, in point of fact, did not the over- seer in all cases lay the information, and was he not a necessary witness? — He was. 2027. And therefore you conceive that, as at present constituted, the overseer is no protection whatever to the poor man? — I do. 2028. Mr. Esfcourt.] Do you think it would be an improvement that you .should have paid assistant-overseers, instead of the overseers at present existing under the new law ? — I think that it would be a very great improvement indeed that the Commissioners should have power to appoint paid overseers for the unions in such manner as the board of "uardians and the Commissioners thou"ht riuht, so as to supersede a great many of the troublesome duties which are now entailed upon the present class of overseers. 2020. Chairman.'] You mean principally questions affecting settlement and the payment of rate ? — Yes. 2030. Mr. Miles.] Have you not, in the unions you have formed, appointed collectors ? — In some of them ; but the law stands in a very unsatisfactory state at the present time in that respect, inasmuch as the magistrates have the power of appointing assistant-overseers, and, though the Commissioners have the power of llie regulation of their salaries, still those two powers come into collision. 2031. Then, if I understand you, you would do away with the power of appoint- ing collectors, and would allow the Commissioners and board of guardians to afipoint, for a single or for two or three parishes combined, assistant-overseers salaried ? — Yes ; I would do away with the power of magistrates to appoint assistant- overseers, and give to the board of guardians and Commissioners the power to appoint assistant-overseers to perform the duties both of collectors and assistant- overseers generally. 2032. Chairman.] In those appointments would you confine the appointment of assistant-overseer to one parish ? — No. 2033. Mr. Estcourt.] Have you any suggestion to make with respect to giving greater discretion to boards of guardians, as to the mode of relief, or the amount ? — When I knew I was about to be examined, I thought that was a point upon which I should be examined, and I have considered that subject very attentively; and I give it as my most decided opinion, that any additional discretionary power given to boards of guardians would operate very prejudicially generally, and that the exception would very soon become the rule of action. 2034. Mr. Scrope.] You mean, no discretionary power that should over-ride the control of the Commissioners? — I do. 2035. Are you aware whether there is any security at present for the safe cus- tody of the old parish book, in which the accounts of the parish were kept pre- viously to the formation of unions ? — I am confident that there is not, because I know in souie instances they are lost. 2036. Do you not think it very desirable that the books of the different parishes should be collected together and deposited in the office of the clerk of the union, or in some place of custody ? — Very desirable indeed ; in some cases the books arc lost, and in others very dilapidated ; a parish book was brought to me in Oxfordshire, in the handwriting of Hampden, who served the office of overseer; it is in a very dilapidated state, but how valuable that is ! 2037. Mr. Estcourt.] You mean the famous Hampden? — I do. 2038. I'hey are continually wanted for reference, are they not? — They are. 2039. Is it in the power of the Commissioners to order the custody of those books ? — No. 2040. Chairman.] Would it not be very convenient that those books should be collected and deposited in registration offices ? — I think that it would be more con- venient that they should be deposited in the Union offices, 2041. Mr. ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) jy 2041. Mr. Scro'pe.'] Is it not likely tliat, the whole system having been changed, E. GiihonjEsq. the parish officers would consider them in the nature of waste paper, and dispose of them accordingly? — I am afraid that they do. 19 February 1838. 2042. Can this not be done without an alteration of the law ? — No ; I believe that the safe custody is in the parish officers, and ought to be by law in the parish church, where tliey are very damp and liable to decay, and very frequently arc decayed. 2043. You ivouki suggest a change of the law in that respect ?— Yes. 145 FIFTH REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT ■ WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Ordered, hj Tlie H.mse of Coniraoiis, tn be Printed, 19 February 1838. M5 SIXTH AND SEVENTH REPORTS FROM SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT; WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed, 23 February 1838. 161. [ ii ] Luna, 2y° die Novembris, 1837. Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the Administration of the Rehef of the Poor, under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act, Ordered, That the Committee consist of Twenty-one Members : Lord John Russell. Mr. Ward. Mr. Fazakerley. Lord Viscount Howick. Mr. Richard Walker. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Poulett Scrope. Mr. Villiers. Mr. Baines. Mr. Miles (Somerset). Mr, Boiling. Mr. Law Hodges. Mr. Lister. Mr. Chichester. Sir Thomas Fremantle. Mr. Slaney. Mr. Bameby. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Liddell. Mr. John Fielden. Mr. Estcourt (Devizes). Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers and Records. Ordered, That Five be the Quorum of the Committee. Jovis, 8° die Febriiarii, 1 838. Ordered, That power be given to the Committee to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House. THE REPORT p.iii MINUTES OF EVIDENCE p. 1 [ iii ] R E P O R T. THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the Administration of the Relief of the Poor under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act ; and who were empowered to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House ; — TTAVE taken some further Evidence, which they have agreed to report to ■*■ -*■ The House, 23 February 1 838. l6l. [ iv ] WITNESSES. Edward Gulson, Esq. - - - - - - -p. I Richard Hall, Esq. - - - - - - -p. 2 [ 1 1 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Jovis, 22°, die Februarii, 1838. MEMBERS PRESENT Mr. Baines. Mr. Barneby. Mr. Chichester. Mr. Hodges. Lord Howick. Mr. Liddell. Mr. Lister. Mr. Miles. Lord J. Russell. Mr. P. Scropc. Mr. Slaney, M r. Wakley. Mr. Walker. MR. FAZAKERLEY in the Chair. Edward Gulson, Esq., again called in; and further Examined. 2044. Mr. Miles.'] CAN you produce any account from Basford, showing that E. Gulson, Esq. the directions issued by the board of guardians of Basford, restricting^ the overseers gi-ving relief in articles of food alone, has not been acted upon ?— I can ; accounts 22 February 1838. showing that it has been construed by them in the way in whicli it was meant, that it was to be merely that relief which urgent cases actually required ; and I beg to » put in a number of bills which have been allowed to overseers since that time for relief given in drugs, clothing, lodging and maintenance, and coals, and every thing which urgent cases may be supposed to require. 2045. Will you select from those cases three or fom- which show that medicine has been given, that food has been given, and that clothing and temporary lodging have been given? — I will. 2046. And at the same time specify the number that you have, without putting down particular cases ? — I will. 2047. In case of able-bodied widows with large families, is it your custom to order those able-bodied women with their childi'en into the house, or do you relieve them out of the house ? — We relieve them out of the house. 2041^. Is that the invariable rule throughout your district? — I have no union in which that is not the practice. 2049. Have you turned your attention at all to the necessity of relieving able- bodied married men, with large families too young to work, out of the workhouse ? — I have. 2050. What is your opinion upon that point? — I think that you cannot relax the law in that respect without great injury. 2051. Did not the mal-administration of the law, previously to tlie passing of the Poor Law Amendment Act, frequently lead to improvident marriages? — It did. 2052. And was not an inducement held out frequently to unmarried persons to contract marriage, owing to the parish relief which \vas given in many districts ? — It was. 2053. To persons having married under this idea, is it not a hardship that by this law they should be restricted from receiving out-door relief, supposing the wages have not risen in those districts, and supposing the children themselves should be too young to work ? — I think that you cannot enact any law which will preclude cases of hardship ; that, let the law be what it may, cases of hardship must arise, and that the evil or hardship existing upon those parties is a very much less evil than would be occasioned by any other mode you could adopt. • 2054. If yow were to restrict the relief given to such able-bodied persons to the taking one or two of the children into the workhouse, there to maintain and educate them, do you think it would have a bad effect ? — I do, because I do not think that 161. the 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COiMMITTEE F c I E-c the labourers would be able to draw a distinction between the man married prior to " ^°"' ^ the passing of the Act and the man married since ; I consider they would be ruled 22 February 1838. practically by what is going forward. 205.5. Mr. Chichester.] Do you think the labourer, generally speaking, would suffer his children to be parted from him ? — No, generally he would not, he might in very extreme cases ; I may say that, by way of meeting the pi-essure of such families, I have advised the board of guardians to do that, and have written to the Commissioners to ask consent to it ; but I have never yet known a man avail him- self of it for a fortnight ; I have know^i him avail himself of it for a week, but he has fetched them out then. 2056. Mr. Miles.] If you should afford rehef, do you not think that that would be the best mode of doing it? — If you ask me the hj'pothetical question, whether, if rehef is to be given, that is the best way of giving it, I should say that it was, but I would rather see the law as it stands. 2057. Mr. Chichester.] Supposing you grant relief to a man with a large family of children born before the passing of the Act, and there is another person who has married since, an equally good labourer with him, and they both were set to work at the same wages, do you not think that it would create discontent in the man who was not relieved by the parish ? — I am confident that it would ; and that is the point that I have stated, that they will look at the practice and not at the law. 2058. Do not you think that it is likely that the former would make an agree- ment with such a man for less wages, and that he would continue to work at less wages? — I do, I think that it would be a premium to him so to do. The Witness withdrew. The Committee-room was cleared. A motion was made and carried unanimously, " That with a view to obtain evidence on the matters referred to this Coimnittee from the House, an abstract of all the Petitions referred to them during the last and present Session be prepared ; distinguishing the number of Petitions from places where the law is in operation, and where it has not yet been adopted ; distinguishing also those of a general character and those which contain specific allegations, whether they are from boards of gviardians, whether they are agreed to at public meetings, or whether from incUvi duals." Richard Hall, Esq., called in ; and Examined. Rkhard Hall, Esq. 3059. Chairman.] YOU are an Assistant Poor Law Commissioner ? — I am. 2060. How long have you been so ? — Just three years. 2061. What are the counties in which you were first employed? — I was first employed in Berkshire and Oxfordshire. 2062. When did you go into Leicestershire? — I went into Leicestershire in September 1835. 2063. Are you now employed in Leicestershire ? — No, I have returned since that to Berkshire and Oxfordshire. 2064. How long were you in Leicestershire ? — Till the middle of 1836. 2065. In Leicestershire there are several manufacturing towns, are there not? —Yes. 2066. A great part of the population residing even in the country is employed in manufacturing pursuits ? — Yes, it is. 2067. What unions have you formed in Leicestersliire ? — 1 formed, in fact, all the unions that are formed in Leicestershire, Market Harborough, Lutterworth, Hinckley, Market Bosworth, Ashby-de-la-Zouch, Loughborough, Barrow-upon- Soar, Leicester, Melton Mowbray, Billesdon and Blaby. 2068. Be so good as to specify those which are principally manufacturing? — Hinckley, Leicester, Lutterworth, Loughborough, Barrow-upon-Soar. 2069. Are those principally manufacturing ? — Those are the principal manu- facturing unions ; there is agricultural population in many of those unions. 2070. Is the town of Leicester in union ? — It is. 2071. When was that union formed? — In the middle of 183G; it was declared the 20th of May 1836. 2072. How were the affairs of the poor administered before the union was formed in Leicester ? — In various modes in the different parishes ; there are eight parislies ON THE POOR LAW AIVIENDMENT ACT. (1833.) 3 parishes in Leicester, and they were under different modes of management at the Richard Halt,E&q. time I fomied the union. ^ , , . '7~\ ilsoq 2073. You, therefore, have had some experience of the operation of the law in 22 lebruary l^3a• the union of Leicester ? — I have had some ; I had not much experience at that time, because, immediately after the formation of that union, I was removed into another district. 2074. Who had the superintendence of it alter that?— Alter that it was super- intended by Mr. Stevens. 2075. When did you return into Leicestershire?— I went again into Leicester- shhe in the month of Mav 1837. 20 7G. You have been 'there ever since?— I remained there untd August 1836, and then returned to "Berkshire and Oxfordshire. 2077. What is the result of your experience, as to the effects of the introduction of the law into Leicester?—! think the effect has been good. 2078. In what respects? — I think that in the first place it has secured an uniformity of management in all the parishes of Leicester, which is of itseh a good thing ; I 'think that that management is better than it was in any one of the parishes before ; I think that a much better machinery is established there for administering the relief of the poor, than was estabhshed" in any one of the parishes before. 2070. Of how many parishes does Leicester consist?— Eight. 2080. What is the population ?— By the last census it was 39,000. 2081. Before they were united, were they under separate parochial manage- ment? — Thev were. . 2082. What was the nature of the management generally ; was it by paid assistant-overseers ? — Paid assistant-overseers in three of the parishes ; one parish was under Gilbert's Act ; one parish had an Act of its own ; two had select vestries, and the other had open vestries. 2083. Therefore vou had a great variety of management ?— We had. 2084. Was the management of the poor bad at Leicester ? — It was not so bad in Leicester as I have seen it in other parishes. 2085. What is the nature of the mal-administration that you had to complain of ?— in the first place, there was no settled system of management at all ; no settled system on wliich the relief was to be given in incUvidual cases. 2086.' Had each parish a workhouse? — There was no union of parishes for workhouse purposes ; I mean to say, there was no workhouse used by more than one parish ; four of them had workhouses, and four had not. 2087. In those parishes which had workhouses, what was their mode of admi- nistering rehef with respect to the able-bodied?— I do not think that they had laid down any settled rule whatever for the administration of relief with reference to the workhouse. 2088. Was it their practice to give out-door rehef ?— Certainly, they gave out- door rehef. 2089. To the able-bodied ?— To the able-bodied. 2090. In those parishes which had workhouses, as well as in those which had not ? — Exactly. 2ogi. Were they in the habit of giving that rehef in money or in kind ? — In money. ■, /• 2oq2. Did they give it in return for work, or in aid of wages? — In aid of wages . 2og3. In the shape of allowance according to the number of the family?— Yes, and in proportion to the earnings of the man who was to receive it. • 2004. Therefore, if the earnings were small, the allowance was greater, whatever might be the condition of the man or the incumbrance of the family ?— Exactly so. 2095. Since the law has been changed, upon what principle is relief now admi- nistered in Leicester? — The relief now is administered much more by the assistance of the workhouses than it was before. 2096. You have united the eight parishes into one union ; what do you propose to do' with reference to the workhouses in that union ?— The guardians at present are building a workhouse for the union ; they mean to administer the law by means of one central workhouse. 2097. In which the system, as it is contained in the rules of the Commis- sioners and the provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act, can be carried into execution ? — Certainlv- 161. ' A 2 2098. The 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT C0:MMITTEE Richard Hall, Esq. 2oq8. The workhouse is not yet completed? — It is not. — 2099. At present, therefore, there is no rule in operation in Leicester prohibiting 22 February 1838. j.giigf {q the able-bodied? — There is not ; there never has been. 2 1 00. Upon what principle do the guardians administer relief to the able-bodied iT^ow ? — I can only speak up to September of last year ; it had been inculcated upon the guardians there, that the only mode in which they could legally relieve able- bodied persons was by setting them to work. 2101. Have the guardians acted upon that recommendation ? — They have. 2102. There being no central workhouse, and no possibility of applying what is generally called the workhouse test to the able-bodied, you have recommended that, in substitution for the w^orkhouse, something in the nature of an out-door labour test should be applied 1 — Yes. 2103. And that recommendation has been acted upon ? — It has. 2104. Wliat have they done to comply with that recommendation? — When I went to Leicester the last time, in the middle of last year, I found that the guardians had commenced the system of stone-breaking ; they had taken a stone- yard ; they had got some of the Mount Sorel granite ; and they employed a great portion of the able-bodied, if not all that applied for relief, in breaking stones by the heap in tliis stone-yard. 2105. Do they give out-door relief to the able-bodied upon the principle of employing the man altogether, taking the whole of his time in return for the reUef given? — Yes, that is the principle. 2106. Is the nature of the work such as not to interfere with the general industry of the place? — It was ; it was stone-breaking, whereas the general employment of the place is frame-work knitting. 2107. Is the remuneration less than, according to the usual rate of wages in. that district, the independent labourer would obtain? — I conceive that that was the great fault that the board of guardians had committed in their arrangement ; they had, instead of fixing the remuneration at something less than would have been given for the same kind of work, if done independently, fixed a remuneration which they thought would permit of the labourers earning something less than they would have earned at their own employment in the frame. 2108. What was the consequence of their doing so? — The consequence of that was, that in a very short time the men who w^ere employed upon that parish work could earn more in the stone-yard than they could earn before when working at their own business. 2109. That being the case, the number of apphcations, probably, Avas very numerous ? — It was very numerous. 2110. Tlie burden upon the poor-rates became very great ?^ — -Veiy great. 2111. Was that persisted in? — It was persisted in for some time, and while I was there it was discontinued. 2112. Do you not consider it absolutely essential, in any arrangement that may be made for providing out-door relief for the able-bodied, that the remuneration for their labour should be less than that which any independent labourer at the same work would obtain ?— Absolutely essential. 2113. Taking care always, I presume, though the amount of remuneration would be less than an independent labourer at the same work would obtain, in order to make the condition of the man receiving parish reUef less eligible than that of the independent labourer, that the allowance should be sufficient to enable him to support his family ? — Yes. 2114. This mode of rehef at Leicester, giving to the persons employed upon this out-door labour more than an independent labourer would have received at the same work, was defective in principle, and mischievous in its results ? — Just so. 211;,. That, you say, has not been persisted in ?• — It has not ; it was discontinued while I was there. 21 16. Why was it discontinued ? — It was discontinued because the guardians were made plainly to see that, at the rate at which they were remunerating those people, the stone-yard was no test at all. 2117. That it was an advantageous mode of being employed?— Exactly. 2118. When they discontinued that mode of employing the able-bodied, to what had they recour.se ?— They then fell back rather to the old system of giving them relief, without requii'ing any work to be done in return for it. 2119. And that is what they are now doing? — That is what they were doing when DN THE POOR LA\V AAIEND.AIENT ACT. (1838.) when I left ; at the same time I should say that they were making very much Richard Hall, Esq more use of their workhouses than they ever had been in the habit of doing — before. 2: February 1838. 2120. As a test? — As a test. 2121. Do you not think it absolutely necessary, in the administration of I'eUef to the able-bodied, that some test should be resorted to ? — Absolutely necessary. 2122. You prefer, when there is room in the workhouse, the workhouse as the test ? — Much beyond any other. 2123. But in manufacturing towns, when large masses of persons are thrown suddenly out of employment for a great length of time, accommodation in the workhouse may often be insufficient ? — It may be so. 21 24. When that is the case, to what would you advise the board of guardians to have recourse ? — I think then they nmst keep carefully in view the necessity of having some test or other for those persons who cannot be in the workhouses when the workhouse is full; they must get the next best test they can. 2125. What do you consider the next best test? — Out-door emplovment very carefully adjusted, so as not to be in the least alluring to the persons who are to receive rehef. 21 20. Do you think any individual inquiry, however carried on, can be so efficient for the purpose of detecting imposition as some regular application of a test?— I am sure it cannot. 2127. And from that impossibiUty of discovering the truth from individual inquiry you consider the necessity of a test to arise ? — I do ; I could offer an instance of that in the case of Leicester while I was there ; it was during the depression of trade which occurred last year ; there were two societies estabhshed in Leicester ; voluntary subscriptions were raised for the rehef of the poor ; there were subordinate officers appointed in each of those societies ; it was professed that there was a sufficient investigation into the circumstances of all the poor in Leicester at their own houses, and according to the result of the inquiries made into their circumstances was the amount of relief given ; I proved, in a great many instances, that persons were at one time receiving relief from both those societies, and I offered in the case of both those societies to give proof that they were reheving persons that were receiving rehef at the same time from the other society which was estabhshed at Leicester. 2128. It being the opinion of each society that the applicants received relief only from themselves? — Clearly so, it being a point to which they directed their attention. 21 2y. Did they direct much attention to that ♦purpose?— They got the best persons that they could to visit the persons in their own houses in Leicester to ascertain their circumstances. 2130. You consider that a proof of the necessity of some test, and of the insuf- ficiency of individual examination l — I do. 2131. From your experience of Leicester and the other manufacturing towns in that part of England, do you see any thing, either in the provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act or in the instructions issued by the Commissioners, which should make this law less applicable to the manufacturing than it is to the agricultural districts ? — I do not. 2132. Do you consider that by the employment of the workhouse test in the first instance, and, in cases of great emergency and difficulty, the out-door labour test as a supplement to the workhouse, you may provide for all cases hkely to arise in the manufacturing districts ? — I do decidedly ; I do not think that there could be a heavier pressure upon the system than there was when I was in Leicester last year. 2133. What is the occupation of the persons principally employed in Leicester? — ^ Worsted stockmgs. 2 1 34. Are they employed in making those worsted stockings in large factories ? — No, in separate houses. 21 3.')- % machineiy ?— Yes ; the people are called frame-work knitters; they make their stockings upon a frame. 2136. To whom does the frame belong? — To the employer of the person who works at it. 2137. What is the arrangement made between him and the person making the stockings ? — We will suppose a manufacturer in Leicester is the owner of 600 or 800 frames ; he lets them out to work-people, who pay him a rent of a 1 5'. a 161 • A3 " week 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COjNEMITTEE lUch'trd Hall, Esq. week for the frame as long as it is in work ; they work for him ; he gives them out the material, which they are to work up by weight, and they are to bring him 22 February 1838. back a certain quantity of manufactured goods, stockings. 2138. "^Vliat were they able to earn, generally, at the time you were in Leicester r — It was generally stated to me that an individual working at the frame could earn 7.*?. or 8s. a week; therefore a girl or bo|^ of 12 or 14 years old, 14 certainly, could earn as much as that ; therefore a man with two or three children able to work at the frame, and occasionally having the assistance of his wife, would get a weekly income of about 24 a-, or 2.5 ■?. 2139. Is the frame a large machine, or is a room of an ordinary cottage capable of receiving more than one of those frames ? — An ordinary room could receive two or three. 2140. Is it the habit of families to have tw^o or three of those frames, generally speaking ? — To fill their cottages with them. 2141. Have there been instances, in that part of the country, in wdiich the parishes have attempted to manufacture stockings on their own account? — There have, and in every instance that I have heard of it has proved a ruinous failure. 2142. Were there not instances, in some of the Gilbert unions in that part of the world, in which that attempt was made ? — Yes ; it was the way in which the guardians attempted to set the able-bodied labourers to work. 2143. Will 3-0U describe the effect of that? — The guardians of the Gilbert unions frequently hired and sometimes purchased frames, which they fixed up in their workhouses ; at those frames they set the inmates of the workhouse to work. Tliere were two modes in which they provided employment for them, either by themselves purchasing the material, and so manufacturing on their own account, which was in general found to be so ruinous a speculation that it w"as never per- sisted in very long, or, by what was by far the most frequent mode, taking work from some manufacturer, and setting the inmates of those workhouses to work upon that. 2144. What was the effect of that upon the industry of those persons who were not supported by the parish ? — The effect was exceedingly bad, because the master manufacturer could get his work performed so much more cheaply by employing the pauper inmates of the worknouse than by employing independent labourers not in the workhouse. 2145. Had it the effect of lowering the general remuneration for that kind of labour in the district ? — No doubt it had, becaiise the independent man was obliged to underbid the parish. 2146. Have the labourers been in any degree made aware of that? — I think they were made aware of it, and my reason for saving so is, that wdieu I addressed the rate-payers at Hinckley, a great number of frame-work knitters were there. I saw them assembled round the door, and at my request they w^ere admitted into the room to hear what I had to say. They were admitted in considerable numbers, and when I expounded what I considered to be the proper mode of setting people to work in workhouses, those people gave very evident signs of satisfaction, of assenting to my opinion ; and when I stated in what way I thought the previous mode had been injurious to them, they also assented, and in an evident manner they expressed their satisfaction. 2147. Do you think that the labourers were made aware that, if they had been independent, they would have been exposed to disadvantage from the parish attempting to manufacture on its own account ? — Yes, I am sure they were made aware of it. 214S. Therefore, so far as the law would prevent parishes from manufacturing on their own account, and interfering with the open and independent market of labour, you think the new law would be useful and acceptable to that class of people r — I am sure it would be useful, and I am quite sure would be acceptable. 2149. Were the poor-rates very high in Leicester when you first went into that country? — They were high ; but when I first went into that country, it was at a time of verj' great prosperity , it was after three or four years of full employment and gi'eat prosperity, and consequently the rates were lower at that time than they had been for some time before. 2150. Supposing the law had not been changed, and the previous practices adopted in the parishes had continued to prevail, and that this pressure had succeeded during the prevalence of that practice, what would have been the effect upon the rates ? — The rates would have been a great deal higher than they were. 2151. Do you think that they would have been higher than they are now, imperfectly ON THE POOR LAW AMEND^IENT ACT. (1838.) 7 imperfectly as you have been able to carry the law into effect ?— Yes, I do thhik Richard Hall, Esq. so • I can sive an instance in the parish of Wigston, which is a large manufacturing — ^ parish in the neighbourhood of Leicester ; five years ago the weekly expenditure 22 February 1^3^- averaged 54/., and in the heaviest week during all last year the expenditure was 20/. Us. ^ ^ , . . 2152. You cannot describe what is the present state of the Poor Law admmis- tration in Leicester '. — Not the actual state. 2153. You do not happen to know whether there is a properly guarded out- door test now applied ?— 1 do not. 21 54. You do not happen to know whether they still have recourse to the old mode of giving out-door relief, without requiring labour in return ?— I believe that they now are administering relief in that way. 2155. During the time that vou were in Leicester did the guardians substitute relief in kind very much for " rehef in money ?—They did to a considerable extent. , , , i- i 2156. Do not you tliink it extremely desirable in all cases where able-bodied men with famihes require rehef, that a great part of that rehef should be in kind ? —Yes, I do. 1 2157. Do not you tliink that there is a greater security for the wives and families receiving a share of the rehef, if it is given in kind ? — Yes, I am sure that there is greater security, and that they feel the advantage of it ; because in Leicestersliire it did occur to me more than once during the depression of trade, for petitions to be made through the reheAdng officer to the board of guardians, that a larger proportion of the out-door relief that was allowed should be given in kind than they were then giving. 2158. Hinckley is also a manufacturing town ? — It is. 2159. When was the Union of Hmckley formed ? — It was declared on the 22d of January 1836. 2160. Was it formed by you ? — It was. 2161. Did vou remain \mtil the May followmg ?~I did. 2162. During that time, therefore, Hinckley was under your managements- It was. 2163. What number of parishes are therein the Hinckley Union.'- — Eleven. 2164. Wliat is the population ?— The population is 13,780 according to the census of 1 83 1 . 2165. What is the character of the population of Hinckley ?— A small part of it is agricultural ; but the greater part of it is manufacturing ; the same kind of manufacture as there is at Leicester. 2160. What was the nature of the administration of the poor at Hinckley when you first went ? — In the town of Hinckley the relief to the poor was achiiinistered by an open vestrjs with a paid overseer. 2167. Was there any workhouse ? — There was a workhouse. 2168. To what purpose was that applied ?--As a test; at Hinckley I should say that they applied it more frequently as a test than, certainly, in any of the Leicester parishes, and indeed more frequently than in any of the Leicestershire parishes. 2 1 6g . Was it , upon the whole, better or worse than you found it generally in that part of the country ? — As far as the amount of relief given was concerned, it was better ; that is to say, there was much less given in Hinckley than I found usually given in the parishes in that part of the countr\^ 2170. In what way was rehef generally given? — It was given in money and in kind ; they gave rehef in bread in" Hinckley, as well as in money ; but they had no settled system to guide them in giving relief ; they occasionally gave it in the shape of workhouse rehef, and sometimes in the shape of out-door rehef. ^ 2171. Generally upon consideration of each inchvidual case? — Yes, upon nothing else ; they had no systematic application of any test. 2172. What took place upon their forming the union ; what change was made in the administration ? — As soon as the board of guarcUans was formed, the guardians were instructed to proceed to administer relief' in the workhouse as far as was thought compatible with the circumstances of the union, having regard to the workhouse accommodation that they had ; a certain degree of classification was immediately established in the workhouse, and rehef was, as far as the able- bodied paupers were concerned, pretty generally restricted to relief in the work- house. _^^, 161. A 4 2173- What 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Richard Hali, Es(i. 21 73. Was the rule proliibiting out-door relief to the able-bodied in force? — It was not in force. 22 Febiuary 1838. 2 1 74. Has it now been issued ? — It had not been issued when I last left Leicester- sliire, and I do not think it has been issued yet ; the peremptory rule has always, in my district, been issued with reference to the circumstances of the union, and principally with reference to the amount of the workhouse accommodation. 2175. Is the workhouse at Hinckley sufficiently large for the whole union ? — It is not ; there was another workhouse which had been used by an incorporation under Gilbert's Act in the parish of Sapcot ; the parish of Sapcot was included in the Hinckley Union, and that workhouse was appropriated for the purposes of the union. 2176. What do you propose to do there ; is it proposed to have one central workhouse ? — The guardians had not decided upon having one central workhouse when I was there ; it would be very desirable that they should ; the tenure on " which they hold the Sapcot workhouse is not very good ; it is private property. 2177. Were there any difficulties in trade in Hinckley? — There were very great difficulties when I went to Leicester the second time. 2178. You found the same difficulties there as at Leicester ? — Precisely. 2179. What was done by the board of guardians to meet those difficulties? — The principal cUfficulty that occurred at Hinckley arose from the paupers that be- longed to Hinckley, and who were not resident within the union. 2180. State the nature of the difficulty that arose from that circumstance ? — The difficulty arose principally from the regulation of the Commissioners wliich forbids relief being given to any able-bodied male paupers who are not resident witliin the parish in which they are settled ; now it happened in the Hinckley Union there were a large number of paupers that resided at Leicester. 2181. About what number? — Including their wives and families, the number I suppose, might have been 600. 2182. Those paupers became chargeable to Leicester ?— They did. 2183. The parish authorities at Leicester were extremely anxious to relieve themselves from the charge ? — They were. 2184. Did they threaten to remove them? — They did. 21 85. What steps were taken in consequence? — In consequence of this tlu-eat, the Commissioners suspended the rule which forbade the relief to persons not resi- dent in their own parish, and the Hinckley board of guardians were instructed to appoint a relieving officer, to reside in Leicester, to attend expressly to the cases of Hinckley paupers who had become chargeable in Leicester. 21 86. And a relieving officer was appointed?— He was. 2187. And the poor belonging to the Hinckley Union are now taken care of by the relicA'ing officer, under the direction of the Hinckley board of guardians, and their residence at Leicester is not disturbed ? — It was a temporary arrange- ment, wliich ceased when the circumstances ceased which appeared to render it necessary. 21 88. But, speaking to this time of great difficulty, when a number of persons were thrown out of emploj-meut, that was the arrangement adopted to meet the case? — It was. 2189. There is nothing in the law, therefore, that prevents arrangements of that nature being made, adapted to the particular emergencies of the case? — Nothing whatever ; this arrangement could have been made in 48 hours. 2190. What would have been done under the old law, if those parties resident in Leicester, but belonging to Hinckley, had become chargeable to Leicester ? — Practically they would not have been removed to Hinckley, but tliey would have been reUeved at Leicester. 21 91. By whom? — By the authorities of the parishes to which they belonged, say Hinckley ; if they belonged to Hinckley parish, probably they would have sent some person from Leicester to Hinckley, who would have received the rehef for them, and carried that back, and relief would have been given on the recommend- ation of this person. 2192. They would have adopted the same system as was adopted ? — I think no person would have been stationed at Leicester in order to give them relief. 2193. You think that a person would have been sent occasionally to give relief to those persons from Hinckley? — Yes. 2194. Are you of opinion that the same accurate superintendence which the constant residence of the relieving officer provides for would have been provided for ON THE POOR LAW AJVIENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 9 for under the former law ? — I do not think it would have been hoped for, and still Richard Hall, Esq. less accomplished. 2195. You attach great value to the machinery under the new law? — I do; I 2'2 February 1838. may, perhaps, instance a case in which relief was given to paupers, under the old system, residing out of the parish to which they belonged. B is a large parish contiguous to Hinckley ; the population is very much of the same character as that of Hinckley. Now I know that they had a great number of paupers who were on the B books, and who resided in Leicester ; they used to send the money, having first settled what amount of relief those persons should have, periodically from B to Leicester, by the hands of the common carrier ; this carrier delivered it to the person at Leicester who, as they called it, paid the poor, for which they paid him 5 /. a year; that person and the carrier, and the paupers, all met at a public-house in Leicester ; and I know that the custom was, that not one farthing of the money should be carried from the public-house at which it was delivered by the carrier, but that there it should be spent ; and the etiquette on the occasion was that the payer, who received 5 Z. a year from tlie parish of B , should be treated, and should not be charged any thing for his share. 2196. When did that take place ? — Before I went to form the union. 2197. That was under the old law ?• — ^It was. 21 98. How were the families of those paupers benefited by tliis money? — I should suppose they were very much injured by it. 2199. What care does the relieving officer who 'is now sent from the Hinckley union to Leicester take that the families really receive the relief which is intended for theni P^Betbre I left the district, all the poor at Leicester were off the book. 2200. But during the time that the relieving officer resided at Leicester, and had those parties under his charge, what care did he take that the family received the relief? — He kept up a constant system of visiting the families in Leicester, and inquiring of them whether they got the relief that he was ordered to give them, and he saw that they sent proper ])ersons to receive it from him. 2201. You believe that adequate care was taken that the families really received the relief afforded? — Certainly. 2202. Contrasting, therefore, strongly with the previous practice? — Certainly, contrasting in the greatest possible degree. 2203. Do you know any thing of Lutterworth ; did you form the Lutterworth Union?— Yes, I did. 2204. What is the state of things at Lutterworth ; what number of parishes are there in that union ? — Thirty-five parishes ; the population of the Lutterworth Union is of a mixed character, partly agricultural and partly manufacturing, the total number being 13,487. 2205. What system of rehef did you find prevailing at Lutterworth? — The parishes in the Lutterworth Union, the majority of them, were in unions under the Gilbert Act. 2206. Have you prevailed upon those unions to dissolve? — I have. 2207. Then you have considerable experience of the Gilbert unions? — There were a great many Gilbert unions in Leicester, with all of which I had something to do. 2208. Are all those dissolved ? — They are, with this exception : tliere are a few parishes in Leicester connected with an incorporation in Warwickshire that have been excluded from the operation of the new Act. 2209. Be so good as to describe in your opinion the comparative advantage of the system provided for by the new law and that of the Gilbert Act, as far as you have had experience r — There is a fundamental difference between the authority which administers the relief to the poor ; in a Gilbert union the board of guar- dians, as a board, regulates only the workhouse ; the out-door relief in each parish is administered by tlie individual guardian of that parish according to his sole discretion, and on his sole responsibility ; in our unions the out-door relief, as well as the in-door relief, is managed by the board of guardians, which constitutes a veiy great difference between the two. 2210. Is the gTiardian of each parish tbe sole and absolute judge, in the Gilbert imion, of whether a party should receive out-door relief or not, and what amount of relief he should receive ? — He is in the first instance. 22 n . Supposing that his determination should be complained of by any party ? — That party has an appeal to the visitor. 2212. Has the vestry the power of superseding and controUing entirely tlie 161. B directions 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Richard Hall, Esq. directions of the guardian ? — Not entirely, there is still an ultimate appeal to the magistrate. 22 February 1838. 22 13. The Gilbert Act provides that relief shall be given to the able-bodied as near their own dwelling as possible ? — I was going on to remark, that that is another fundamental distinction ; the Gilbert Act points out a mode in which the relief shall be given to the able-bodied appUcant ; that is to say, the guardian is to find for him work suited to liis capacity, near his place of abode ; he is to set him on this work, and is to receive the wages that the man earns, and to account with liim monthly, and pay liim the surplus, if any. 2214. Do the guardians, in point of fact, act upon that provision of the law? — They have long since found it impossible. 2215. In your experience, as far as you know of Gilbert unions, have you found the guardians generally, or in any instance, acting upon that provision of the law ? — The only instance in which I have found them acting upon that provision, has been by removing men into the workhouse, and adopting a provision somewhat , sinular to that under the new law. 2216. That is, in point of fact, not acting upon it ; have they found it impossible to carry that provision into execution ? — I think it imposed a burden upon the guardian which no individual could by possibility bear ; I do not see how a guar- dian could find work for a frame-work knitter, suited to his capacity, near his place of abode, nor to a manufacturer of any kind. 221 7. State any other inconveniences that appear to you to result from the pro- visions of the Gilbert Act? — I have stated the individual responsibility of the guar- dian, and his Hability to find work for the pauper near his place of abode, and the impossibility of complying with that provision ; I think, besides, that the manage- ment under the Gilbert Act was liable to all the objections which could be urged against the management where there is no Gilbert Act at all. 2218. Were the guardians paid for their attendance under the Gilbert Act? — They were, within my experience the guardians were all, or almost all ; I believe all. 22ig. Was the payment such as to be any object to an person in the situation of a guardian ? — Certainly ; in fact, perhaps I might say the majority of the guar- dians, but a great many of the guardians within my experience were persons to whom the salary was a considerable object. 2220. Mr. Walker.] Wliat was the amount of the salaries ? — They varied ; they were 51. and 31., and I have known them as high as 30/. a year; there were 25 guarcUans in the Barrow-upon-Soar Union, and they divided, I think, 350/. a year. 2221. Fifteen pounds a piece? — Yes. 2222. Chairman.] Was there under the Gilbert Act the same macliinery for investigating the merits of individual cases, which your reheving officer gives to you ? — Nothing of the kind ; the guardian under the Gilbert Act had just the same means that the overseer had, and no more ; he was a person following his ordinary occu- cupation, a man in business, a farmer or a shopkeeper, and he just treated the cases as an overseer would have treated them in a parish that was not under the Gil- bert Act. 2223. Did he devote the whole or the greater part of his time to the investi- gation of claims to relief? — Certainly not. 2224. You consider in those respects that the new law possesses a great advan- tage ? — Certainly. 2225. Have you known any instances in which guardians have been supposed to derive profit in the Gilbert unions from shops which they have kept, and from relief being administered from those shops ? — I cannot state a case. 2226. Mr. Walker.] In the Gilbert Act incorporations, can you state whether dinners were not frequently given to the guardians ? — I believe the custom was for the guardians to have a dinner at the monthly meeting, partly at the expense of the parish, and partly they used to expend certain fines to which they were liable if they did not attend the monthly meetings, which fines are directed by the Act to be applied to the maintenance of the poor-house ; in all the cases that I know, they used to dine together when they met once a month at the workhouse. 2227-8. Chairman.] Was there not in the Gilbert union a great disadvantage arising from the parishes of the incorporation being chosen, not from their being contiguous, but that parishes were taken out of the county or the neighbourhood capriciously, even though they did not join each other ? — There was a very great , disadvantage in that respect ; they did not consider at all, in forming a Gilbert union, ON THE POOR LAW AMEMDMENT ACT. (1838.) ii ■anion, the convenience of any parties concerned. The way in which the Gilbert Richard Ball, Es union' was put together was usually this: those parishes which formed the nucleus of the union, if I may so speak, afterwards thought that certain parishes 22 Februar) 183: would be advantageous to join with them, and they would reject a parish that was likely to send "many persons to the poor-house, and take another parish that would subscribe well to the poor-house, without giving them much trouble. •222Q. Had the parishes in the Gilbert incorporations the power of leaving those incorporations, if they should wish so to do ?— They must give one year's notice ; they are in the incorporation for periods of three years ; they must give twelve months' notice before the expiration of one of those periods of three years ; there- fore the parish may be compelled to remain in the incorporation for three years. 2230. Have you found great inconvenience, in forming your unions, resulting from those Gilbert incorporations ?— Very great indeed. 2231. Do you think it desirable that those Gilbert unions should be dissolved by Act of the Legislature ? — I think it highly desirable, on all accounts. 2232. You think it desirable that the system of rehef should be one uniform system throughout the country ?— Yes, very desirable. 2233. At present the Gilbert unions can only be dissolved by the consent of two-thirds of the guardians? — Yes. 2234. Practically, within those Gilbert unions, has the eflFect been to place the administration of relief to the poor upon a satisfactory footing, or of reducing pauperism ? — Generally, I think, it has not. 2235. What have you found to be the condition of the poor resident within the Gilbert unions ?— I think in one or two of the Gilbert unions some good had been done by the use of the workhouse ; and I found in those unions that the good had been done by an evasion of the principle of their own Act altogether, and by a practice w^hich was very closely assimilated to the practice adopted under the Commissioners. 2236. In some particular instances those principles had been adopted, but did you find that they had been generally adopted ?— Certainly not, not generally. 2237. Have you found the administration of relief in the Gilbert unions gene- rally a good administration ? — Generally not a good administration. 2^238. Was it not within some of the Gilbert unions that attempts were made to set up a parish manufactory with a view to relieve the poor ? — That has been most commonly done in the Gilbert unions. 2239. Has it not been a practice with them to hire a great number of frames, and to set paupers to work wnthin the workhouse ? — Yes, it has. 2240. A system calculated to produce great injury to the independent industry of the neighbourhood?— Certainly. 2241. Mr. Mil e-s.] During your visit to the Gilbert incorporations, did you find any extraordinary mismanagement in their workhouses ? — I did, a very extra- ordinary mismanagement. 2242. Will you be kind enough to state any particular instances of mismanage- ment which you discovered ? — I once visited the poor-house of a Gilbert incorpora- tion, and I found all the able-bodied men that happened to be there, shuffling about the house with manacles on their legs ; they were all in fetters. 2243. How long ago was that ? — It was the first time I went to Leicestershire, in the autumn of 1835. 2244. Was there any reason given for that ?— The reason given was, that it was extremely difficult to keep those people in order, and to prevent them brealdng bounds and running away. 2245. They were not subjected to any labour whatever ? — They were not. 2246. Taking into consideration the rates payable in the parishes immediately contiguous to the Gilbert unions, and likewise the rates payable by the parishes included within Gilbert unions, what inference can you draw as to whether they were higher or lower in the relative proportions ? — I do not think that you would find any thing from which to draw an inference at all, either that the management w^as better or worse than in other parishes ; in some of the Gilbert unions I think the rates are lower ; in those Gilbert unions that afterwards formed the Lutter- worth Union, I found the rates lower than in the adjoining Union of Market Har- borough, where there had been no Gilbert unions. 2247. Mr. fValker.] Can you inform the Committee how many pereons were 161. B 2 employed 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ■hard Hall, Esq. employed by the parishes as frame-work knitters in any incorporation of Gilbert union at one time ?— I cannot say from memory. February 1838. 2248. Were there more than 50? — No, certainly not. 2240. They would not be so numerous as to interfere with the independent labourer's wages, would they ? — I think they did interfere in this way : they intro- duced the parish into competition with the independent labourer, because the independent labourer could see that the manufacturer could get his work done at a cheaper rate by the paupers in the workhouses than by the independent labourers out. 2250. Was not the interference so small as to have very little effect indeed upon the supply and demand ? — I should think that it had a more extensive effect than would at first appear from the apprehensions of the people who were not sent to the workhouse, and who felt themselves compelled to take work at a lower rate, under the idea that if they did not take it at this low rate it would be taken from them, and that they, being left without work, would be consigned to that work- house, and that then that very work would be given to them, and they would be compelled to do it at less remuneration. 2251. Was the independent labourer fully convinced of the injurious effects of this plan upon himself '?— I am sure he was. 2252. Mr. J5flme.y.] Will you mention the name of the Gilbert union work- house where the people were found in chains ? — Appleby. 2253. Mr. Miles.'] Do you think it possible, in the state in which you left Leicester, supposing their workhouse had been built, that the nile prohibiting all out-door relief to the able-bodied could have been carried into execution ? — Decidedly it could, at the time when I left Leicester. 2254. The demands for relief would not have been so great as to have caused you to break through that regulation ? — Not at that time, certainly not. 2255. Mr. Walker^ Does not the neighbourhood of Leicester afford a facility, in ha\-ing so large a store of granite rock, for the employment of the poor? — So far it does. 2256. There is an immense demand, by that growth of granite, in Leicestershire and in all the neighbouring counties ? — There is a demand. 2257. That demand is very easily supplied, in consequence of inland navigation intersecting those districts ? — Yes. 2258. Pi-obably you will admit that that is a facility which is very peculiar to that portion of the country ? — Yes. 2259. I" other manufacturing districts, where they have no material of that kind, do you not think there would be some difficulty in furnishing out-door employment to the poor? — I think there is difficulty in getting a satisfactory cut-door test. 2260. In the course of your experience have you been able to find out any other test than those of grinding corn and breaking stones? — Those have been found so satisfactory, in all the workhouses that I have had any thing to do with, that we have not sought any other. 2261. Do you consider that those tests can be drawn upon sufficiently to employ large numbers? — Yes, I do. 2262. You know no other mode of applying an out-door labour test? — I think there are other modes of applying a labour test, such as was found applicable in Nottingham ; making a new road and lowering hills, and improvements of that kind, might always be found in the neighbourhood of a large town. 2263. Chairman.'] Are you aware that at Nottingham a road was made? — Yes, I am. 2264. And that at Sheffield a road was made, or is making? — Yes. 226,5. Do you not consider that in the neighbourhood of all large towns some such employment might be found, when stone-breaking and corn-grinding were insufficient r — Yes, I should think so. 2266. Mr. Wu/J(pr] That employment will of course diminish in the lapse of time ? — Yes, and I think we may hope that the occasions for such employment will become less frequent. 2267. Mr. Scrape.] You confine those occasions to extraordinary emergencies? — Yes ; I think the occasions will become fewer and fewer. 2268-q. You mean, by emergencies, severe depressions in trade, which cannot be expected to occur more tlian once in two or three years? — Exactly. 2270. Mr. Baines.] And if the poor, by more provident habits, should have less ON THE POOR LAW AMENDIMENT ACT. (1838.) 13 less occasion to apply to the parish funds, the necessity for finding such employ- Richard Hall, Esq. ment would be less frequent ? — That is certainly one cause which will operate. " 2271. Mr. Scrope.'] The conditions of the employment you give would be, that "'2 February 183S. the work should be of an extraordinary character, and not "likely to be undertaken hut from those peculiar circumstances '? — Certainly. 2272. So that it should not interfere with tlic ordinary demand for labour? — Exactly. 2273. Chairman.] Do you think that the estabhshment of workhouses on any scale or upon any system would be sufficient to meet the difficulties arising out of commercial embarrassment in large manufacturing communities, supposing that embarrassment to be of long continuance ? — -I do not think that the workhouse test alone would stand a very long and veiy heavy j^ressure ; I think that you would be obliged to call in aid some subsichaiy jirinciple ; you would be compelled to adopt something like the course that was adopted at Nottingham and at Sheffield. 2274. Do you see any serious objection to the adoption of such a system as a subsidiary test ? — No, I do not ; and I think that the subsidiary test would be found very much more efficacious when there was the workhouse test in conjunc- tion with it ; I think that at Leicester that was the cause why it was found less efficient than it would otherwise have been, that they had no efficient w'orkhouse test. 2275. Be so good as to explain in what respect you consider the workhouse test would be a great advantage in conjunction with the subsidiary test?— It would enable the guardians to select any from among those who were at work out of doors, and to apply to them the workhouse test. 2276. Mr. Miles.] Your answer would be equally applicable to the agricultural districts where great agricultural distress jirevailed? — It would. 2277. Mr. Baines.'] Would not the labour test be more applicable to agrictulural districts than to manufacturing, from this cause, tliat there is not so dense an assemblage of people, and of course the region for improvement is larger ? — In that respect it would be more applicable. 2278. Mr. Scrojje.] In the course of your experience in agricultural districts, have you ever had occasion to apply the labour test as subsidiary to the work- house ? — Never. 2279. Do you contemplate that circumstances are likely to arise in agricultural districts to make it applicable ? — I see no probability of it, judging from the state of things in the last two winters. 2280. You would not apply it in the case of severe frost occurring in the winter season ?— Certainly not; I would not apply it unless I found "that the pressure was too strong for the workhouse to bear. 2281 . That is to say, unless the workhouse was nearly or entirely full ? — Yes. 2282. Mr. Miles.] Supposing such a pressure should exist among the agricul- tural community, as existed in 1821 and 1822, what would you do wath the great mass of the agricultural community that must necessarily be thrown out of employment?— I have that confidence in the workhouse test, that I would apply it as far as it would go, and when I found that circumstances compelled me to go farther, I would take the next best test. 2283. Mr. Baines.] Is it not one of the advantages of the present system, that it enables you by its elasticity to take other tests, if they should be found necessary ? — Yes, I think that a great advantage in the present system. 2284. If instead of the Poor Law Commissioners having, as they have, a power now to relax the standard, the law had been made peremptory, and they had been obliged to adhere to one standard only, would not it have been a prejudice to the law, and not a beneht ? — A very great prejudice. 2285. And therefore what is represented against the Poor Law Commissioners is merely a means of trying fairly the experiment of these tests before any law is enacted, which may be tinal, as to the regulation of the poor?— Yes, I consider that it is ; I think that the advantage of that was shown in the evidence which I gave a little while ago with regard to Hinckley. Generally speaking, it is found expedient that paupers should not be relieved when they reside away from the parish to which they belong ; but peculiar circumstances arose in Leicester, and immecUately that the Commissioners were made aware of those peculiar circum- stances, they relaxed the rule, which was no longer apphcable, and introduced a different mode of relief. J6i. B 3 2286. And 14 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Richard Hall, Esq. 2286. And therefore that which is so frequently complained of as being inju. rious, is in reality beneficial ? — I believe it to be so. 22 l-ebruary 1 838. 2287. Mr. Scrope.'] Supposing such a case as this to occur in an agricultural district, that the labourers of any union, or in any particular parish of the union, were fully employed by the farmers, but at such a low rate of wages as to be insufficient to maintain a considerable family ; that such an indisposition was mani- fested on the part of the labourers to enter the workhouse, that the farmers were still enabled to hire them at this inadequate rate of wages ; would you not think that a case which required some relaxation of the rule, in order by taking the labourers out of the market for labour, ^vithout enforcing their residence in the workhouse, to compel the farmers to raise their wages to a sufficiency to main- tain the laboure'r with a large family ? — I think that there would be very great danger indeed in administering rehef with a view to do that ; I think that you would run a very serious risk of falling back upon many evils from which, in the district with wliich I am connected, we consider we have entirely escaped. You allude, probably, to substituting for workhouse relief, relief which would be more agreeable to the labourer than the workhouse relief, so as to induce him to accept it, and thereby wthdraw his sei-vices from the employer. 2288. With a view of keeping up wages? — I think, that unless we maintain the principle that the parish should be the last resource of the man, we shall be in imminent danger of falling back into the evils from which we have escaped. 2289. Chairman.] Do you think it desirable, in any arrangement with regard to the relief of the able-bodied, that the condition of the pauper should be made less eligible than that of the independent labourer? — I thinl-: that that is an indis- pensable condition. 2 2qo. Mr. Scrope.] You would adhere to this, if the rate of wages of the inde- pendent labourer in the locality was below that which was considered sufficient to maintain in decency a large family ? — I think, if you enter into considerations of that kind, you would soon get involved in inextricable difficulties ; I think all vou can do is to draw a line between destitution and subsistence, and that you" must offer relief in such a shape as that it wiU be accepted by destitute per- sons, and by no others. 22qi. Chairvum.] Do you not consider that if relief within the workhouse were steadily applied to the able-bodied labourers in a district circumstanced as the last question refers to, that the expense of maintaining large families in the workhouse would speedily induce farmers to raise the rate of wages ? — I am sure that would be the efiect. 22Q2. Have you known instances where that has been the effect? — Yes; I have known several instances ; it has twice occurred that we have had an able- bodied applicant come to the board of guardians, and, on being asked what he came for, he has said that he would be much obliged if the board would give him a paper, as he was sure that would be the means of getting him emplo}Tnent in the parish. The paper was an order into the workhouse ; the paper was given to the man, and he went away, and did not go into the workhouse. 2293. Have you reason to believe, or is it within your own knowledge, that the man so circumstanced obtained better wages ? — It is within my own knowledge. 2204. Mr. Scrope.'] You do not, therefore, contemplate that there would be such indisposition in the labourer to resort to the workhouse as to enable the farmer to reduce the wages ? — I am sure that there would not ; I know a parish in which half the farmers Avere employing men at one rate of wages, and the other half employing them at a rate a little higher. Those men who were working at the lower rate of wages apphed to the guardians for relief; they received orders into the workhouse. The very day they apphed to the board of guardians for relief, the farmers who were giving the low rate of wages met together, and determined to raise their wages to the rate given by the others. ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 1,5 Veneris 23" die Febnmrii, 1838. MEMBERS PRESENT Mr. Baines. Mr. Barneby. Mr. Boiling. Mr. Estcourt. Mr. Fielden. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Hodges. Lord Howlck. Mr. Liddell. Mr. Miles. Mr. P. Scrope. Mr. Slaney. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Walker. MR. FAZAKERLEY in the Chair. Richard Hall, Esq., again called in ; and further Examined. 229.5. Chairman.'] When you were in Berkshire formerly, you procured the Richard Ball, Esq. dissolution of a Gilbert union called the Wallingford Union, did you not? — J (jj^j 23 February 1838. 2296. What were your reasons for recommending a dissolution of that union? — I wished to form a large union which should include the town of Wallingford, and I found that three of the parislies in the town of Wallingford were incorporated under Gilbert's Act. 2297. So that it would have been impossible to place the whole of the town of Wallingford in the union, unless the Gilbert union had been dissolved ? — It would. 2298. What did you find to be the state of the management under the Gilbert union in the town of Wallingford ? — The state of management was extremely careless, and so bad, that of all the guardians I saw there was not one, I believe, that was acquainted with the provisions of the Gilbert Act, and consequently they did not attempt to give relief according to the provisions of the Act, but as they would in any other parish. 2299. Be so good as to describe the workhouse ? — I found that the workhouse was divided into a number of apartments, and that it was used, in fact, exactly as a row of parish cottages would have been used ; that the officers of the three parishes tried who could first get a troublesome pauper family lodged in this workhouse ; they were simply put into the workhouse as a way of finding them a lodging. When they were in that house they received parish allowance, and were allowed to support themselves by following any business that they might profess ; there was a shoemaker, I remember, among the rest there, who was a shoemaker in the workhouse. 2300. Prosecuting his usual trade in the workhouse ? — Yes. 2301. Had he been long there? — Seven years. 2302. Did you find a total absence of classification? — Entire. 2303. Were the aged and sick well taken care of? — There was no more care than would have been taken of them in their own cottages ; no care arising from the establishment of the workhouse. 2304. Did you, in point of fact, find that those who were sick, or suffering under infirmities of age, were exposed to inconvenience from want of classification ? — Decidedly ; they were exposed to great inconvenience, inasmuch as they were mixed up with paupers of all classes. 2305. Mr. Liddell.'] How many might there be in the workhouse ? — It was quite full. 2306. Chairman.] Was Barrow-upon-Soar a Gilbert union? — It was. 2307. What was the state of things in Barrow-upon-Soar when you went there r — 1 found that the relief was variously administered in the different parishes, just 161. B 4 according i6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE lUdmrd Hall, Esq. accordino- to the capacity of the guardian for the time being; that there was no reo-ular system of administering relief pervading the whole union. 23 February 1838. 2038. What were the evils of the administration, as far as you observed, upon the whole ? — I think the evils of the administration were the same as the evils of administration in parishes which were not under the Gilbert Act, which were merely under the control of overseers. 2309. Were the accounts regularly audited ?-r-No, decidedly not. 2310. Did you find in the workhouse at Barrow-upon-Soar a large stock of machinery purchased by the union, and going to decay ?— Yes, I found a large part of the workhouse consisting of premises in which this ruinous machinery was deposited ; that had been the result of an experiment on the part of the o-uardians of that union to find profitable employment for the paupers in the workhouse. 231 1. Have you ever had reason to suppose in any of the Gilbert unions, that the o-uardians, or any other person concerned in the administration, derived any profit from the supply of clothes or any other goods to the workhouse ? — I have very good reason to suppose that they derived benefit from it. 2312. In what way? — It was commonly stated that they did, and no care was taken to deny it; it was stated in places where it might have been disproved, if it had not been the fact. 2313. What have you heard stated? — That dift'erent guardians were employed in furnishing provisions to the workhouse, and were employed in furnishing articles of clothing for the workhouse ; and I have heard it stated also, that takino" advantage of that clause in the Gilbert Act which provides that they shall set the paupers to work, they have set the paupers to work on their own account. 2314. Were clothes and provisions in the Gilbert union provided by open tender? — No, certainly not; for instance, one parish in Leicester was under the provisions of the Gilbert Act, and there all their contracts for provisions were expressly confined to that parish, the parish of Saint Martin's. 2315. So that all opportunities of obtaining provisions and clothes at a cheaper rate from a wider and more extended competition was denied to that parish ? — Certainly. 2316. Do you find the practice of the Gilbert unions, in taking parishes here and there, net always contiguous to each other, inconvenient in itself, and inter- fering materially with the formation of convenient unions under the Poor Law Amendment Act?— I consider it to have been a most formidable obstacle in the way of forming unions under the Poor Law Amendment Act ; there was no one union now existing in Leicestershire which could have been formed without a previous dissolution of one or more Gilbert incorporations ; in one instance, par- ticularl}-, the Market Bosworth Union, it was necessary, in order to form that union, to procure the dissolution of five incorporations under the Gilbert Act, and there are now a few parishes in Leicestershire, insulated amongst all the other united parishes, which are connected with the Gilbert union, the centre of which is at Bcdworth in Warwickshire. 2317. At what distance arc those insulated parishes from the workhouse of tiic Gilbert union ? — Ten miles, and eight miles, and nine miles; various distances. 2318. Are there intervening parishes between them and the Gilbert union workliouse, which do not belong to them? — Yes, there are; and the officers of the union arc obliged, in their circuits, to pass through those united parislies in tlie regular transaction of their business. 23]'q. Mr. Barnes.^ You have spoken of the Unions of Leicester and Hinckley, and both of them you describe as unions in which the manufactures considerably prevail ; can you state to the Committee the comparative amount of rates in those two districts, as existing previously to the introduction of the new law, and as existino- since that time ? — I could procure an accurate statement of that. 2320. You do not happen to have such a return before you ? —No, not at this moment. 2321. Will you obtain such a statement for the same period before the intro- duction of the union as has transpired since ? — I will. 2322. Generally, do you think that there has been a decrease in the rates since the establishment of unions under the Poor Law Amendment Act? — There was a very ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 17 very decided increase in the rates, up to the termination of the first quarter, in the lUchard Hall, Esq. year 1837 ; but inasmuch as those unions were formed by Ae at a time when the — ■ country might have been considered to be in a very prosperous state, and inas- ^o lebruaiy 1838. much as very soon after their formation the same district became exceedingly depressed, the comparison will be peculiarly unfavourable to the new system. 2323. Then, on the whole, do you suppose that that comparison will exhibit an increase of parochial taxation upon the rate-payers since the union under the new Act, as compared with the same time before the union, or the contrary ? — I should think that no increase would be shown, if the whole time since the forma- tion of the union were compared with a period of similar length previously to the formation of the union. 2324. Do you think that there would be a decrease? — In many parishes there would decidedly be a decrease. 2325. In vonr evidence of yesterday you stated that in one of the parishes there was a decrease from 5G/. to 20/. ; was any thing like that applicable to any , of the other parishes within the unions ?— Yes ; I am sure that there would be found to be a corresponding diminution in a great number of the parishes that were included within those unions. 232O. Do you think, in those parishes in which there has been a saving, that saving has arisen out of better management, or has it arisen from diminishing the comforts of the deserving poor? — I believe, out of better management entirely. 2327. Do you think that that improved management would have arisen, if the new Poor Law had not passed? — No, certainly not. 2328. You think it entirely owing to the system being improved under the operation of the new Poor Law ? — Entirely, I think it is owing to that; my reason for thinking so is, because in the course of my experience I have found parishes in which considerable progress had been made towards good manage- ment, and 1 have found adjoining parishes to those parishes quite as bad as any others; perhaps the very worst that I have had to inquire into. 232Q. Then, in those parishes where the old system had been well administered, any decrease of rates arose from the improved management; and that which was partial before, you made, under the new system, general ? — I mean that. 2330. Were the sick poor as well attended to in the Unions of Leicester and Hinckley before the alteration in the law as they have been since? — I believe not so well ; 1 believe that there were not such securities for the proper attendance of the sick poor as now exist. 2331. Mr. Ufl/./cj/.] But you have no acquaintance with the manner in which medical attendance was given there before the new Act ? — I have the in- formation acquired in the district in forming the union. 2332. Mr. Baii/c.s.'] Have the aged and infirm paupers been relieved as liberally under the new as they were under the old system? — Quite as liberally^ and in many instnnces more so. '^333- ^ou have stated that the allowance system prevailed in Leicester before the unions were established ; can you give the Committee any idea what a frame- work knitter whose earnings were 8 5. a Aveek, with a family of six children dependent upon him, would have received before the introduction of the new law under the allowance system ? — I think that the parish would have allowed probably at the rate of about I s. n week fur each child. 2334. So that, supposing a frame-work knitter to earn his 8 a-. a week, and supposing him to have had six children, his wages would have been increased to the sum of ]4x. a week, including the parish allowance? — Yes, I should think that that would have been the case. 2335. And so in proportion for five, four, and three, and two children ? — Yes. 2336. Is that allowance now wliolly discontinued r — It is. 2337. Then have the wages of the frame-work knitter been increased since the introduction of the unions into that district ? — 1 should say that he receives the same nominal rate for his labour that he did before. 2338. That the income of the family now is 8. v. a week, wiiile under the former system it would have been 14.v. ? — It is possible it may be so, but there were many practices which occurred before which interfered ver}' much with the regularity of the bargain between the employer and the frame-work knitter, such as giving him half work, employing him half the week, and then making up the i6i. c allowance i8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Ridard Hall, Esq. allowance out of the parish purse ; now, under the amended system, such practices as that cannot be ; the man would not be receiving any thing from the 23 February 1838. pa^j.js]^^ if he were receiving any thing from his employer; and the tendency of the existing arrangement in Leicester would be rather to support the man and his family entirely, than to leave him in that condition of receiving a partial support from his master, and having the rest of his subsistence made up from the parish. 2339. ^"^' ^" point of fact, would not the situation of the weaver be that which I have described — that is, that he would be receiving now under the new system 8s., whereas the income of the family, under the former system, would have been 14s. ? — Yes, it might be so, certainly. 2340. Then have there been any circumstances by which the income of his family is increased, as comparing the new system with the old, either from the children being better employed, or any other circumstance ? — Yes, in that way his general circumstances are improved, that the new system has made it the interest of the employer to give him more employment, and to give it him more steadily. 2341. Am I to understand from that answer that on the whole, though the income of the family may appear to have been diminished, it is rather apparent than real ? — Yes ; I mean the Committee to understand that I apprehend that to be the case. 2342. Though he has not the parish allowance, yet by the more regular employment that he receives from his master, it is compensated to him either in that way or by his children obtaining employment, and by his having an additional motive for obtaining employment for the children in the factories or elsewhere ? — Exactly. 2343. That you would apply to any number of a family, whether it should be a family of eight or a familj' of four, inasmuch as it would run through the whole system, and would apply to the head of a family obtaining better work for his children, and more constant work for himself? — Yes. 2344. You have stated that the man obtains more employment for his children; ■ how does that happen ; would he not before have had a strong motive for obtain- ing employment for his children '? — He would not have had the strong motive, I conceive, that he now has, because before he had the chance of getting made up to him that portion of his subsistence which might have been earned by his children ; he would derive it from another source ; now he cannot do so. 2345. Can thev get that employment under a pressure and commercial embar- rassment ? — Certainly not under such a pressure as there was in the middle of last year. 2346. Then, in reality, where there is that extreme pressure there would be a decrease, to the amount that I have stated, of the income of the family, from 14 s. a week to 8 s. a week ? — There would. 2347. Must not that be the case under commercial difficulties at all times, similar to the difficulties which occurred last year ? — Yes. 2348. Do you think that, not under any particular pressure of circumstances, but generally, the labourer's family will be better employed under the new system than under the old ? — Yes ; I conceive that it has been found in the last year in Leicestershire that the duration of the season of difficulty was very much shortened by the strict application of the test in the way in which they could apply it ; that was the statement very often made to me in the county, that the improved machinery there had helped them through the difficulty that they were under, very much more quickly than the old system. 2349. Will you explain rather more particularly how that happened ; it would not in any way revive the demand for their usual labour ; and how then did it happen that it got them more quickly through their difficulties? — It added a strong stimulus to the men to return to their wonted employment as soon as they could, to neglect no opportunity of making an engagement with the employer, and it destroyed the possibility of those half measures which the employers used to be in the habit of having recourse to on the occasions, such as giving the men a little work out, and emjiloying them partially, and in that way prolonging the pressure on the parish fund. 2350. Mr. Miles.'] When they were so partially employed, was the residue that was necessary to their subsistence paid out of the poor-rate ? — It was. 2351. And ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 19 2351. And that now is not the case ? — It is not. Richard Hull, Esq. 2352. Do not you think likewise that the system now adopted of not placing - the men, under a particular manufacturing pressure, to that work to which they -3 Ftoruary 1838. have been accustomed, but setting- them to breaking stones, and other work of that kind, must have the effect of not bringing the goods to an over-glutted market ? — Certainly. 2353. And consequently must in that way, sooner than would otherwise take place, do away \\ ith the depression of trade r — Certainly ; the evidence that I gave yesterday would be in confirmation of that. 23.54. Mr. Bai7ies.'] Do you think that the introduction of the new Poor Law into the manufacturing districts has had the effect of producing a more kindly feeling between the work-people and their masters ? — I should conceive that it had. 23.55. A better disposition on the part of the masters to give full employment to their work-people, where it was possible to accomplish that? — Certainly ; I have no doubt of it, and that the work-people have felt grateful in proportion to their dependence upon their masters. 2356. Mr. Estcourt-I Do you speak positively to the fact that there is a more kindly feeling existing on the part of the operatives towards their masters in the manufacturing districts where this law has been introduced, than there was be- fore ? — Yes, 1 do ,- I think that it actually is so, because, during the late season of distress in Leicestershire, there was no expression of bad feeling whatever towards the masters ; on the contrary, during the whole time, the men and tlieir masters communicated in the most friendly manner. Now it was constantly re- ported to me, when I was in Leicestershire, that during the former period of similar distress in Leicestershire the men had been exceedingly violent, that they had used considerable intimidation, and their deportment and behaviour had been totally different from what it was found to be in the middle of last year. 2357. Mr. Baine.s.'] Can you state what weekly allowance was given to the aged or infirm persons receiving relief at their own houses from the poor-rates before the alteration of the law, and since? — It varied very much in different parishes, and according to the different circumstances of those parishes. In some cases they would give to an aged person, who was supposed to be entirely past work, 1*. Qd. a week, or they would give 2^. or 2s. 6d., I should say very rarely more. 2358. But comparing the former allowance with the present, can you form any tolerably accurate idea of what would be the result of that comparison ? — The result, I think, would be favourable to the treatment of the poor under the present system. 2359. That is, old or infirm persons receiving relief for their maintenance at their own dwellings would receive under the new system more than they would have done under the old ? — I believe that there would be more instances in which, under the new system, allowances have been raised, than instances in which they have been lowered. 2360. Can you form anj'^ idea of the proportion of the average allowance now, and the average allowance formerly, so as to reduce it to figures? — That would be difficult; the practice in the unions which I have formed has generally been, im- mediately after the formation of the imion, at a very early meeting of the guardians, to get a list of the paupers that were receiving relief from all the parishes com- posing the union ; then the advice which I gave to the guardians was this, to take this first step in regulating the relief — see what was the ordinary allowance to an old person in one parish, say the highest parish in the union; then see what it was in the lowest parish in the union, and see what it was in several other parishes, and then strike an average, and take that as a basis for the computation of relief in each of the cases. Then, when the amount of relief to be given to any poor per- son came under discussion, I would require the guardians to state any peculiar circumstances arising from the place in which the pauper lived, v.hich would seem to require that a larger rate of allowance should be given in that particular case, so that the ultimate result was a near approach to uniformity of allowance in the whole of that union. 2361. Do you suppose that the equalization of that allowance, which would be the operation of the system which you have explained, was generally in favour of 161. ' c 2 " the 20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Ilichiml Hall, Esq. the poor who were old and incapable of obtaining their own support ? — Yes, I think that that system, as acted upon by the guardians, had the effect of raising- 23 r'eLiuaiy 1838. more allowances than it lowered. 2362. And at least that it had the effect of doing more justice, because it was giving to each, being in similar circumstances, pretty much the same allowance? — Tiiat was the object of it, that there might be no odious comparisons or dis- content. 2363. ^v. Estcourt.'] When that practice was resorted to under your direction, can you inform the Committee whether there was an increase or decrease of the number of old and infirm persons who came into the workhouse ? — Within my experience there was no increase of aged and infirm persons who came into the workhouse in the manufacturing districts. 2364. Mr. Babies.'] Has your attention been turned to the subject of the in- crease or decrease of bastard children born in the manufacturing districts since the passing of the new law, as compared with a corresponding period under the old law? — I do not think that of my own experience I can make any satisfactory reply to that question, because after introducing the new system into Leicester- shire I left it again immediately, and did not go back until after the interval of a year ; I could state reasons wliy I think there would be a decrease. 2365. State the reasons? — One reason which induces me to think it probable, is the persuasion that it is thoroughly understood by the class of persons whom it is intended to affect ; when I have conversed with women having bastard children, they have shown an intimate knowledge of the alteration made in the law with regard to bastardy. 2366. Chairman.^ In what way; what expressions have the}' used? — They have in many instances argued the case with me, and endeavoured to prove the injustice of the present law as it affected them. 2367. Will you state a little more precisely and particularly what injustice have they complained of; in what way have they appeared to understand the law ? — They have understood it in this way ; they have felt that their circum- stances now are not what they were before the alteration of the law ; before the alteration of the law they felt their circumstances to be rather improved by being the mothers of bastard children ; since the passing of the law the}'^ find their circumstances to be rather worse by becoming the mothers of bastard children. 236S. Mr. Baines.'] And you suppose that that operates as a restraint, and of course diminishes the number of bastard children ? — I cannot but think that it does. 2369. Chairman.] Did you find, before the alteration of the law, that they availed themselves of the interference of the parish to obtain an allowance for their bastard children, or to compel the putative fathers of those children to marry them, which they cannot now do ? — Exactly. 2370. You think that the knowledge of that change in the law is likely to operate upon them in producing habits of greater prudence ? — That is what I mean. 2371. You say, that you think that women, under the former state of the law, considered that their circumstances were improved by having bastard children; (]. operation of the law, but gradually discontinuing such relief and holding out a a denial of such relief hereafter. 28 February 18^8. 31293. So soon as what is called the peremptory' rule of refusing relief out of doors to able-bodied is in full force in those districts, that practice will be put a stop to ? — It would be put a stop to by the peremptory rule. 3 '294. It has been put a stop to through the whole of the south of England, lias it not ? — No, not throughout the whole of the south of England ; in a very small proportion of unions by the peremptory rule. 3295. Mr. 2Jrti//e*.] Have you any means of ascertaining the number of hand- loom weavers; you speak of them as small; are they not a numerous class? — Some particular classes of hand-loom weavers are very numerous ; but I am speaking particularly of the weavers in cotton ; they are a small class compared with the population of their neighbourhoods, and gradually diminishing. 3296. If a man is earning 'ds. a week, and has a family of two or three children that cannot aid his exertions, and a wife, how is he to live, if you apply to him the peremptory test of relief only in the workhouse? — Supposing the peremptory rule forbidding out-door relief to be introduced, a person in that situation would have to accept that kind of relief, or have to turn himself to some other branch of employment ; but there is no such rule at present introduced, and I have always spoken of the abolition of tlie allowance system in that district as being a work of time, which must be eflected by gradual process. 3297. Then you mean that you cannot, where a number of persons are employed in that way, and the wages which they obtain are so small as those which you have described, apply to them the peremptory test, without in reality obliging them to go into the workhouse ? — I have given the alternative in my former answer, that either I conceive the person applying would be obliged to accept the otl'er . of admission to the workhouse, or turn to some other mode of employment which would maintain him. 3298. In some of the townships of Lancashire you will find a very large pro- portion of inhabitants who are actually hand-loom weavers }■ — My impression is this, that the worst part of Lancashire, with reference to the distressed hand-loom weavers, is about Colne, Burnley and Padiham ; but there has been the introduction of power-looms to a great extent in Burnley in latter times, and I consider that in that district the number of hand-loom weavers in cotton has been very materially reduced ; there are hand-loom weavers in worsted also in that quarter ; and with respect to the worsted trade, it is well known that the power-loom has not been introduced to so great an extent in that trade as it has been in the cotton trade, and still less has it interfered with the hand-loom weaving in the woollen trade; but with regard to the weavers of coarse calico, the introduction of the power- loom over the whole of Lancashire has been so great and extensive that — (I am speaking now from what I hear merely in general conversation, and from no exact statistics) — but I conceive, in the course of a few years, there will be hardly any hand-loom weavers in the coarser descriptions of calico. 3299. But, practically speaking, in those townships which you have mentioned, Colne> Burnley and that neighbourhood, is there a possibility of the hand-loom weavers obtaining any other employment to a great extent ? — I think, during the last year, there would have been great difhculty in many of those persons turning themselves to any other employment in that neighbourhood ; and I would also state that, even in ordinary times of prosperity, I think there would be very great difficulty in the older weavers of that branch turning their hands to any new employment ; and therefore I think it possible that a strong necessity exists there, which perhaps would not exist to the same extent in other parts of England, of introducing the workhouse system very gradually indeed, and a necessity for carrying on out-door relief in some degree for the present with reference to able- bodied persons. 3300. Chairman.'] Do you think that that out-door relief, which you say must be carried on for some time before the workhouse system can be absolutely intro- duced, may be administered with greater security against abuse, and with more just discrimination by the board of guardians, and the machinery under the present law, than it was under the former system ? — I think so undoubtedly ; in various modes relief to the able-bodied will be, I think, conducted on a better footing; relief given in the way of allowance to large families would be given in provisions hereafter instead of money ; and in times of extreme distress and failure 3 74- c 4 of 24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Jlfred Power, Esq. of employment, I think that the boards of guardians would be able to introduce some employment into the market by undertaking some public work which i28 February 1838. would not otherwise be undertaken. 3301. y\ndyou would apply that in the nature of an out-door labour test ? — Yes, a number of individuals would be furnished \yith employment to a sufficient amount to maintain themselves and their families under those circumstances with- out any difficulties of the nature which now exist in the separate administrations of townships ; some work of that kind would be undertaken, perhaps in two or three parts of one union, where all the 20 or 30 townships, or whatever number they may be, would have the benefit of that work, and resort to it. 3302. Mr. Sc/'ope.] In saying that out-door relief must be continued for some time in those districts, you do not mean the out-door relief you have already -spoken of, in the nature of allowance to families employed by private individuals ? — In ordinary times I should say that such relief should not be continued, unless in some extreme cases of men grown above the age of 40 or 50, who could not by possibility be expected to turn their hands to other employment ; but with respect to men from the age of 20 to 40, hale, stout, able men, 1 should not propose to discontinue the relief altogether for which there was any immediate necessity, but to fix some period at which they must not expect it any longer, but must turn to some other employment. 3303. Supposing the class of hand-loom weavers in any district cannot main- tain themselves for a continuance without occasional relief in aid of wages, do you not think it better that that relief should be put an end to, in order to induce them to seek some other employment, their present one not being remunerative ? — Certainly; I will mention as an illustration — in the Blackburn Union i found about 140 cases of hand-loom weavers receiving small allowances of from I*, to 2 s. 6d. perhaps at the utmost per week in aid of their earnings, at a depressed time of trade on the approach of winter. I conceive that the great bulk of those allowances may be discontinued early in this year, if there is a fair degree of revival in trade, for there are now built or building in and around Blackburn seven or eight large factories which have not been yet put in motion, none of which, in fact, have yet been filled with machinery. \\ ith respect to a large number of those now receiving relief it would be improper, and the guardians have distinctly held out that they will not continue relief to the younger class of family men, as soon as it shall appear from the circumstances of the neighbour- hood that they can turn themselves to some better employment. 3304. A notice that the allowance system is likely to be discontinued would induce this class to avail themselves of opportunities of other employment, of which there is a probability at present? — No doubt it would urge them most forcibly to do so. APPENDIX. ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 2.5 APPENDIX. -No. 1.— Copy of ACCOUNTS produced to tlie Committee by E. Guhon, Esq., of Relief given Appendi.K. by the Overseers of different Parishes within the -Bos/b/rf Union, since December 1836 and which has been allowed by the Board of Guardians. Nu. I. Beeston Parish. £. s. d. 1837 : Oct. 10. — Drugs forM /^illiam Pearson - - - .5 - Allowed. Barton Parish. „ Nov. 28. — Isaac Spence — Food - - _ .. _ 1 6 Smock-frock - _ _ 4 _ Shirt - „ _ 1 6 Two pair stockings _ _ •5, _ Handkerchief « S „ Nov. 30. — Same man. - Food - _ _ 1 4 1838: Jan. 10. — Trousers _ 5 6 Jacket, &c. - _ 7 6 Hat - - - _ 1 6 Shoes - . _ £. - 6 , 1 12 6 Allowed at Board of Guardians, Jan. 16, 1838. John Barr oiv, Ovi 1837 : Aug. 26.— For Catherine Brittle : Shoes - - _ _ _ 5 Bonnet, 3/2 ; Stays, 2/. - - !\ 2 New frock - - F, — Stockings, 1/2 ; Shift, 3/. - — 4 Petticoat, 8tc. - - - 4 3 Allowed at Board, Nv. 14. £. ,1 3 _I 1837: Dec. 6 — A patent truss £. _ To a pauper at Beeston, name not given on bill. Allowed at Board, Dec. 12. 1837 : Dec. 4. — For Sophia Mann : New gown - - - _ .-rg Petticoat and shift - - _ Skirt and stockings New shoes -44 - 3 - 5 - 18 6 Allowed at Board, Jan. 3, 1838. Barton Parish. 1837: Sept. 1837.— Coffin for John Swan, a boy - -£.-12 - Allowed by Board. William Martin, Overseer. 174- D Accounts refi'iTed to at Quest. 2044, 6th & 7th Reports. Appendix. No. 1. \ccounts referred ,« at Quest. 2044, 5tli & 7th llepurts. 26 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE £. s. d. 1837: Nov. 30. — Casual relief, in money and in kind, to Thomas Patteson, being ill and in deep distress, in the parish of Colwick - 4 _ Allowed, Dec. 5, 1837. William Parr, Overseer. Lanibley Parish. 1837: Sept. 16. — To maintenance and lodgings, four days, for Thomas Harrison, previous to his being ordered into the workhouse £. - 12 - Allowed at Board. William Collishe, Overseer. 1838: Jan.4.- AUowed at Board. Ilkestone Parish. -Relieved George Dealiel with four shil- lings ; he is very ill, and his family in a distressed state. George Small, Overseer. Beeston Parish. 1837: Dec. 6. — New shoes for John Wilcox - £. 7*- Allowed by Board. Hood, Overseer. Basford Parish. Feb. 3. — Maria Morton — Bread and bacon Ann Kenneweil — Bread and coals Samuel Fish — Bread - - 1 - --28 £.-10 - Allowed by Board. fV. Mozley, Overseer. A great number of other Bills are annexed, showing that all kinds of necessary relief in urgent cases have practically been given by the Overseers, and have been allowed by the Board of Guardians, since December 1836. No. "2. !^opy of Circular eferred to at ^iiest. 3015 of his lUport. —No. 2.— Copy of CIRCULAR produced to the Committee by .4//rec? Power, Esq. To the Clerk to the Guardians of the Union. Poor Law Commission Office, Somerset House, Sir, loih May 1837. By the 28th section of the Poor Law Amendment Act, the Poor Law Commissioners for England and Wales are directed, on the formation of any union of parishes, to inquire and ascertain, by such means and in such manner as they may think fit, the average expense of the poor of the several parishes of the union for the three years preceding the inquiry. The purposes to which the averages so ascertained and calculated may hereafter be applied, are fully set forth in the same section of the Poor Law Amendment Act. Inde- pendently of those purposes, it is provided by the Act for the Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages, that the guardians of each union shall provide a register-office out of the funds coming to their hands as such guardians; whereby it appears that the several townships of any union will contribute towards the expense of providing a register- office in the proportion of their respective averages when ascertained and declared. With the view of ascertaining with as little delay as possible the future averages of the several townships of the Union, I am authorized by the Poor Law Commissioners to require that you will, as clerk to the guardians, forth- with institute an inquiry into the amount expended in relief of the poor of every township and place in the union for the three years immediately preceding the 25th of March last. For this purpose it will be necessary that you should personally examine the disburse- ment accounts of each township or place for the period above mentioned, examining the account for each year separately, and deducting from the total expended in each year all items of expense which are not either directly or incidentally referable to the relief of the poor. For ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 27 For your better instruction on this head a list of items is given in the annexed form, Appendix. any of which occurring on the disbursement side of the account will properly be deducted^ from the total, and which should be severally classed and named under the general head ot No. 2. " Not relating to the relief of the poor." -— Other items of expenditure besides those enumerated in the list may sometimes occur. Copy of Circular, which ouo^ht to be deducted from the total. Such items you will of course deduct, il in your judgment they are not referable, either directly or incidentally, to the relief of the poor. Under^the head of " Outlay on buildings" it will be proper to include every charge of that nature excepting what "may appear to be the current annual expense of keeping the workhouse 'or poor-house in repair. In cases of debt or mortgage on any such property, the payment of any part of the principal should be deducted ; but the interest, which is in the nature of rent, should be retained as a part of the current expenses incidental to the relief of the poor. , . , ^ ■ , , 11 With regard to the salaries of paid parochial officers, as assistant-overseer, town-clerk, or master of the workhouse, every portion thereof should be retained in the average which is incidental to the relief of the poor. In those cases where the salary of assistant-overseer is partly a remuneration ior discharging duties not connected with the relief oi the poor, and where the proportionate amount of such remuneration is not dl^tlnctly and separately stated you will avail yourself of every means of information within your reach for calculating its proper amount, and include the same in the deductions from the " Total expended." With reference to journeys performed by the assistant-overseer, such as are incurred about the settlement or removal of paupers to their own townships should be distinguished from the journeys incidental to the actual relief of the poor, and included in the deductions under the head of " Expended in the removal of paupers, law-charges," &c. On the receipt stde of the account items will sometimes occur, which, being in reduction of certain items relating to the relief of the poor on the disbursement side, diminish the actual loss to the township, and will therefore properly be deducted from the "Total expended." , 1, , r 1 . j Those items of this description which more commonly occur will be lound enumerated under the title of " Received back." You will be careful not to consider as included under this description any sources of income mentioned in the receipts, which cannot be referred to some corresponding items left on the disbursement side. For example, the items relatino- to registration of the voters are deducted from the disbursement side ; you will therefoie not deduct those items relating to the same subject which occur on the receipt side of the account ; and so in similar cases. " By the labour of Paupers." The expense of employing the poor will be left in the disbursement as an item of relief, whatever is received back being deducted under the above head, so as to leave only the net loss. From other Townships, &c. Casual relief to paupersinot belonging to the township will be retained in the disburse- ment, and such sums only deducted therefrom as are found in the receipts as recovered back " from other townships." , „ -. , , i u i The same observation applies to the sums expended in relief of bastard children, sucti part of which only should be deducted as is received back from the putative fathers. Many questions of doubt may arise which are not provided for in these instructions, or in the form of average paper appended hereto. In such cases you will be guided by your own judgment as to the retention of the items in the average, or their deduction therefrom, havino- regard especially to the expressions used in the 28th section of the the Poor Law Amendment Act, and the purposes to which the averages are therein directed to he applied. Should any cases arise upon which you would wish to decline deciding on your own responsibility, have the goodness to refer such cases to me through the Poor Law Office, when they shall receive immediate attention. I forward for your use a number of circulars requiring the attendance of one or more ot the overseers with the parochial books, which circulars you will fill up as may best suit your convenience. The same circular contains a tabular form for the return of the several classes of paupers now relieved in each township. You will perceive that a few days' notice will be necessary to enable the assistant-overseer to deliver this return in a proper state. In some instances it may occur that the return has not been accurately filled up ; and it will be desirable, on the production of each return, to question tlie overseer on several parts of it, and to make any alterations which may appear necessary to complete it. You will also receive herewith two forms of Tabular Abstract, adapted to an entry of the several averages, and of the contents of the several returns. % One of these, when filled up with the results of the inquiry, you will have the goodness to forward (signed by yourself) to the Poor Law Office, and the other duplicate you will retain for the use and information of the board of guardians. It is desirable that the inquiry should be commenced at your earliest convenience, and concluded with as much despatch as the requisite attention to accuracy will allow. I am, Sir, your very obedient servant, Assis' Poor Law Commissioner. Union. 174. E Appendix. No. 2. 28 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE Union. — Township of 1834-5. Copy of Circular I Total expended * .___--- Deduct : — 'County rates -------- Journeys relating thereto ------ Constables' salaries and expenses . . - - Expended in the removal of paupers, law charges, &c. - Church rates -------- Surveyors' charges ------- Inquests --------- Assessor's charges and expenses - _ - - Expended in destruction of vermin - - - - Expenses of valuation ------ Registration of voters ------ ^Outlay in buildings ------- From putative fathers ...--- From pensioners and other paupers - - - - By the labour of paupers ------ From other townships, for relief advanced to their poor --------- £. 785 s. 10 6 £.•232 2 6 I 5 - 30 13 - 15 - - 10 5 6 9 15 - 5 4 - 3 3 - 20 10 - 50 - - 1 10 - 50 - - 15 5 - 8 7 - 20 — — 12 10 - 485 10 £. 300 - 6 * Before this amount is entered, it should be carefully cleared of all items not referable to the expenditure of the particular years under examination, as for example: — 1 . Paid balance to preceding overseer. 2. Balance in hand. 3. Balance due to the township. 4. Uncollected rates. 5. Outstanding debts of former years, &c. 1835-6. Total expended £. s. d. 705 10 6 Deduct : — Enumerate the items as before. 350 ft - £• 355 5 6 ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 29 Appendix. 1836-7. 296 3 - Expended on relief of the poor, 1836-7 - - _ 394 1 _ ,. „ ., 1835-6 - - - 355 5 6 .. „ „ 1834-5 - - - 300 - 6 3)1.049 7 - Average* - - - -^.349 15 xso. 2. £. 5. d. Total expenses 690 4- Copy of Circular. Deduct: — Enumerate the items as before. * It will be convenient to have the average stated in pounds only, omitting the shillings and pence. You will therefore leave out the latter when less than 10 s.; when above 10°., you will add one to the pounds. NINTH REPORT SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT ; WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, AND APPENDIX. Ordered, b'j The House of Coromoiis, to be Printed, 28 February 1838. 174. TENTH REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, AND APPENDIX. Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed, 2 March 1838. 183. [ ii ] LuncE, 2~' die Novevibris, 1837. Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the Administration of the Rehef of the Poor, under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act. Ordered, That the Committee consist of Twenty-one Members : Lord John Russell. Mr. Ward. Mr. Fazakerley. Lord Viscount Howick. Mr. Richard Walker. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Poulett Scrope. Mr. Villiers. Mr. Baines. Mr. Miles (Somerset). Mr. Boiling. Mr. Law Hodges. Mr. Lister. Mr. Chichester. Sir Thomas Fremantle. Mr. Slaney. Mr. Barneby. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Liddell. Mr. John Fielden. Mr. Estcourt (Devizes). Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers and Records. Ordered, That Five be the Quorum of the Committee. Jovis, 8° die Fcbruavii, 1 838. Ordered, That power be given to the Committee to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House. THE REPORT - ... - p. lii MINUTES OF EVIDENCE p. i APPENDIX p. 28 [ iii ] REPORT. THE SELECT COMMHTEE appointed to inquire into the Administralion of the Relief of the Poor under the Orders and Regulations issued bv the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Lav,' Amexdment Act; and who were empowered to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House ; — TTAVE taken some further Evidence, which they have agreed to report to -*■ ^ The House. 2 March J 838. 183. [ iv ] WITNESSES. Richard Hall, Esq. - - - - - P- i Alfred Poive)', Esq. - - - - - p. i ( 1 ) MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Veneris; 2° die Martii, 1838. MEMBERS present; Mr. Bailies. Mr. Barneby. Mr. liolling. Mr. Chichester. Mr. Estcourt. Mr. Fielden. Mr. Fieshfield. Mr. Hodges. Lord Viscount Howick. Mr. Lister. Mr. P. Scrape. Mr. Slaney. Mr. Wakley. MR. FAZAKERLEY m the Chair. Appendix, No. 3, p. 29. Richard Hall, Esq., again called in ; and further Examined. 3305. Chairman.'] WHAT returns have you?— I have some returns of the Richard Hall, Eiq. amount of the earnings of the under-mentioned paupers of the Leicester Union whilst erajjloyed in breaking stones for the several weeks stated below; and also 2 March 1838. a letter from the clerk of the Leicester Union in explanation of that return. [The Witness delivered in the same. — F/c?e Appendix, Nos. 1 & 2.] 3306. You also put in a return of the amount expended for the relief and maintenance of the poor in the Leicester Union during the years ending the 25th of March 1833, 1834 and 1835, showing also the average expenditure of those three years, and the amount expended for the same purpose during the year ending the 25th of December 1837 ; have you any thing to say in explanation of this last return ? — Yes, I should wish to say that the average is taken for three years of unprecedented prosperity in that district, and that the sum stated to have been expended during the entire year, from Christmas 1836 to Christmas 1837, is during a period comprising a depression of trade which has been very serious in Leicester. 3307. Mr. Hodges.'] The first return you have put in spreads over a period of four montlis, April, INIay, June and July 1837 ; did the price of breaking stones continue the same throughout the whole of those four months ? — The raised shortly after the men were set to work in the stone-yard. 3308. How soon after they were set to work? — I think about a fortnight three weeks after they were set to work. 3309. Did it continue at that price throughout the rest of the term? — It did. Alfred Power, Esq., again called in ; and further Examined. 3310. Chairman.] HAVE you brought the returns which you were directed to Alfred Power, 'E&aid ; the highest amount of salary is 300^., and the lowest 1 1. 6s. ; that is a vestry clerk; with that exception there is nothing lower than 5/. 3341. Jsjiit your opinion that the three relieving officers who now have to preside over tliose 20 townships will be able to attend as efficiently to the wants of the poor, and to the saving of the rates of the rate-payers, as the 20 previously did ?— I think that the number of relieving officers in that country should bear a greater proportion to the expenditure than in the agricultural districts ; that notion has been acted upon in nearly all the unions where relieving officers have yet been appointed ; I mean this, that the same amount of expenditure and the same number of paupers would not be with propriety placed under one relieving officer in the north of England, which would be placed under one relieving officer in the south of England, because the population of his district, including any given amount of expenditure, say 5,000/. a year, would be so much greater in the niami- f'ucturing districts, and the difficulty of dealing with casual applications would from that circumstance be so much greater; and with respect to the question whether the three relieving officers of the Bradford Union will be found able to undertake the whole business properiy, I can merely say that, at the time they were aj)pointed, I l)elieved that they would be, and I have no reason to change my opinion MOW. I would mention this "further, that independently of those three relieving officers, ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) .5 officers, there are nine assistant-overseers appointed, or about to be appointed, by Alfred Po^er, Esq. the board of guardians, ^vho will be resident in various parts of ^^J^' 3^"' '^'^'J , March ,838. will be enable.l, both under the special provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act and under the regulations of the Commissioners, to meet any casual applications for relief which may arise by way of sudden emergency ; and it is a part of the duty assigned to the assistant-overseers, by the Commissioners order, that they should meet any sudden case of distress which may arise between the seiiaratc board-days of the board of guardians, by giving relief m ])rovisions. 3342. Is it intended that those nine assistant-overseers should receive salaries for their services?— Certainly. . . 3343. Have you included the salaries of those nine assistant-overseers in the estimate you have given in ? — I have done so. , ^ ^ . 3344. What is to be the auiouut of the salaries of those assistant-6ver?e^r? ?— The whole amount will be 760i. Junb^J.; irOv'iJ.i..i!iij,„j 3345. What salaries are the three, relieving officer^s^^,^o^rep^iye|-J>nj^lii||idred pounds each. ^- -^ , • t' '™ t ■-,346 Are you prepared with the returns of the Chorlton Union ?— 1 am, 1 find that taking the salaries of all the officers now appointed in the Chorlton Union the expense of the establishment charges is about 1220/. per annum; that includes also assistant-overseers, as in the c^se of Bradford, those salaries having been recently determined upon by the guardians of the Chorlton Union ; it includes '^'"' also the salary of the clerk and relieving officer, the salaries and keep of the masters of workhouses, and the rents, '-V W< e QM7 Will vou state the number of assistant-overseers J --The ;nuiteber ot assistant-overseers is six, and their salaries are 5SU/. ■* 3348. Will you state the number of relieving officers ?— One relieving officer, and his salary is 150 Z. , ,. j 3340. What is the whole number relieved ?— The whole number reheved was ^''' 976, and that includes the children under 16 who were relieved with their 3350. What is the population ?— The whole population of Chorlton Union, by the last census, is 46,465. [The Wit7iess delivered in the same.l 3351. Have you any return to produce relative to the Oldham Union? — I was asked to give for the Oldham Union a separate account of the three years' expendi- ture. I should state that the averages of the Oldham Union have not been ascer- tained in the usual way under the Commissioners, but reference has been made to the Parliamentary returns for those statements ; and I may say also that those Parliamentary returns usually fall short of the whole expenditure, as ascertained under the direction of the Poor Law Commissioners. 3352. Have you found that to be generally the case in the experience you have had in the north and in manufacturing towns ? — I have found that to be more the case with reference to the northern district than to the southern district. The three years of the Oldham average stand as follows :— The first year 6,205 Z.; the second, 4,556/.; and the third 3,268/. I have reason to think that in the first year, as here stated, there is some inaccuracy, to the amount probably of 150Z., from this circumstance, that the township of Tonge is put at 234/. in the first year, and only at 69/. in the second year, and 09/. in the third ; and I find that it is put in red ink, and a mark is put by the clerk against it, as probably j , including some other expenditure, or as being an error. 335.3- What do you calculate as the average of the three years?— Five thou- ^ vj^i^^nd one hundred and forty-three pounds. - -I 33^4 What is the population of the townships in that union?— The popula- ■ I :• MTf, ■i)iii!:ijr.); [The Witness delivered in the same.] 33.5.5-^ <^«^"^»»«w.'j In those returns you have compared the expense included under the head of establishment with the populations of the unions generally ?— I have, in those instances which have been already mentioned. 3356. Have you compared the expense of the establishment charges with the ■whole expense of relieving the poor in those unions?— 1 have not, I was not asked to do it ; but I can do that very readily, having the whole expenditure and the whole establishment charges. iSj. A 3 3357- Be 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Power. Esq. 3357- Be SO good as to estimate, in those unions of which you have been speak- iug, the proportion of the establishment charges to the whole expense of relieving aMarchiSsS. the poor under the former law, and the proportion which the establishment charges will bear to the whole expenditure in relief of the poor, as far as your returns enable you to speak, since the introduction of the law, confining yourself to the same period in which you have made the comparison with reference to the jjopwlation ? — I will ; I have compared only those parts of the establishment charges to which I had access, namely the salaries of the officers, and the rents and the maintenance of the workhouse establishment. The remaining items of the establishment charges, which it would be impossible for me to obtain in the office, or by any other means, are not included. 3358. You have stated the expense of the establishment to be considerable in some of those unions that yim have been forming in Yorkshire and Lancashire? — Not considerable, with reference to the population. 3359. Will they be found to bear a large jiroportion in reference to the whole expenses of administration of relief? — I think they will bear a larger proportion to the whole expenditure than at present in the south of England, from this cause, that I am including in the establishment charges the necessary services of those persons who will be employed in making, assessing and collecting the rates ; a kind of officer which does not exist to the same extent in the south of England, because those services are in fact performed by an unjtaid overseer. 3360. An officer who is not necessary, except where there is a dense popula- tion and a large number of tenements ? — An ofticer who, I should say, would be desirable, as far as my own opinion goes, throughout the country — an officer employed in making and assessing the rate, but not necessary to the same extent in the south as it is necessary in the north of England. 3361. Neither would the number of those officers be so great in the south, where the population is smaller, and the buildings are much more scattered than in the north ? — Certainly the number would not be so large in proportion to the expenditm-e. 3362. Are you of opinion that the result of introducing the new law into the districts of Lancashire and Yorkshire will be attended with any diminution of the' Aviiole expense of administering relief to the poor.? — I believe that it will be accompanied with a dimiuntion of expense, imless very extraordinary circum- stances should arise to make the expenditure greater, which might happen in that district. 3363. With res])ect to any extraordinary circumstances that might arise, would they not have affected the old administration of relief still more strongly than they would aiiect the new ? — I believe that they would. 3364. Therefore, if under the pressure of extraordinary circumstances the expense in any particular year, or in any particular place, should be found to have increased since the new law has been introduced, the operation of the same causes under the old law would have led, in your opinion, to a still greater expenditure ? — I believe that would have been the case. 33(>.5. Therefore, taking one year with another, and the chance of circumstances, are you, or are you not, of opinion that the introduction of the law will be attended with a diminution of expense ?— I believe that it Mill. 3366. Mr. Hodr/es.'\ You have stated in your first day's examination, that when you first went down into the district of Yorkshire and Lancnshire you found town- ships with no workhouses in them ; can you inform the Committee whether the rates were higher in those townships as compared with townships similarly cir- cumstanced which had workhouses ? — No, I have not the materials for forming that comparison. 3367. You stated that you found entries, in former parish books, of relief granted to men with families whose earnings were not sufficient for their su))sist- ence; have you taken any pains to ascertain, in any instance, what those earnings were? — It was in the relieving officer's books that I found entries of that descrip- tion, and those books would, if properly kept, which it is presumed they were, give the earnings of the families in each case, so far as they could be ascertained. 3368. Do you mean by the relieving officer the salaried overseer? — The state- ment which 1 made in my former examination was, that in the relieving officer's lists of the poor who were receiving relief at the time the board of guardians begim to administer relief, which would be the most accurate statement up to that time ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 7 time that could be obtained, there were such instances found in many cases ; Alfred Power, Esq. and there the amount of earnings would be stated, as far as they could be ascer- tained. 2 M.ircL 1838. 336g. Were you the first Assistant-commissioner w^ho went down to tliat district ? — Yes, I was. 3370. Were you not alluding to the old parish bt)oks, when you stated that you found entries of relief granted to persons whose wages were insufficient for their subsistence ? — No, not to the old parish books. 3371. Did you never look into the old parish books? — I have, in my former examination, explained the circumstances under which those luiions were formed. I have since looked into many of the parish books in taking the averages, which I assisted to do in some of the unions ; and there were in those books cer- tainly, many allowances of the nature which I have described. 3372. Can any of those entries be now pointed out, and by an examination on the spot of those cases can it not be shown wliether those men aad their families have been better off or worse off since the new law passed ? — Such an examination might be made. 3373. Have you thought it your duty to make such a particular inquiry into the comparative condition of the labouring })oor under your superintendence ? — No, I have not. 3374. Have the rents been increased in those districts where the rates have been reduced ? — I have not ascertained that. ^375. Have wages risen in those districts where the rates have been reduced? — rl have not been able to judge of that. 3376. Has relief to the poor been abated in those districts from what it was under the old law ? — The actual amount of relief given to the poor has been diminished, as it would appear by the returns ; at least the actual expense of relieving the poor in that particular union for which I can give any such return, namely Settle, appears to have been diminished. 3377. Then you are not able to state that the Avages have risen at all in those districts where the rates have been reduced?— I am not able to give such a statement. The union commenced relieving the poor from the 29th of September 1637, and I am not able, therefore, to make any statement whether wages have since that time risen or not. 3378. Can you inform the Committee whether in any of the districts in the south of England in which you were formerly employed, as the rates have fallen, in the same ])roportion, or at all, the wages have risen ? — The information that I have received from the district in which I was formerly engaged is of a very general nature. I have heard, and the source of information was casual conversation with Colonel Wade, the Assistant-commissioner who succeeded me, that wao-es have increased in some parts of that district. I may state this, that in the county of Essex they varied, in different parts of that county, to a very great degree ; I believe that they were so low in some parts as 6s. or 7s. a week for an able-bodied man's labour, and in some jiarts they were 125. 3379. Referring to your answer respecting the hand-loom weavers, was your judg- ment guided, in giving that answer, by the general insufficiency of their earnino-s? It was certainly the insufficiency of their earnings to maintain them in many cases. 3380. Perhaps the number and the congregated position of those men were also taken into your consideration?—! do not consider that in any of the unions which are now giving relief there is any very great number of such cases now receiving ndief, or who were receiving relief at the time the board of guardians undertook the administration ; I think the greatest number was in the Blackburn Union, and I stated in my former examination that I thought there were there 140 such cases. 3381. Were there only 140 hand-loom weavers in a state of distress? — Cm* hundred and forty hand-loom weavers receiving regular weekly allowance in aid of their earnings at the time the relieving officers' books were first fi-amed, which of course would give the state of things existing at the time tlie guardians undertook the relief. 3382. Are there not entire districts inhabited by persons following the occupa- tion of hand-loom weavers ? — Certainly not ; and the most distressed class of hand-loom weavers, namely the weavers of calico, are not in any very great pro- portion any where with reference to the Avhole population. 338,3- You have stated the reason why you vvoiuld not enforce the workhouse ^^3- A 4 test 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Pouer, Esq. test to those persons, namely, that their earnings are insufficient to support them- — — selves and their families ? — That is not the sole reason ; I should say that I parti- 2 Miiich 1838. cularly pointed out the expediency, as it appeared to me, of gradually doing away with that kind of allowance, and not putting a stop to it suddenly with reference to the whole class of hand-loom weavers now receiving relief ; and I also mentioned some pro])ortion of that class, namely those most advanced in years, and Avho would find it difficult to turn their hands to any other emploj-ment, as being cases to which the test of the workhouse should not be applied, instead of the out-door relief that they are now receiving. 3384. Can you give any reason why the same leniency should not be shown towards the agricultural labourer whose earnings are clearly insufficient to support himself and family } — With respect to all the unions with which I am acquainted, the same leniency has been shown on first introducing the law. In the 30 unions with which I was connected in the south of England, the guardians up to this time are acting under the five rules Avhich insist upon the substitution of pro- visions for money ; many of those boards of guardians, and in fact the greater part of the boards of guardians acting under those rules, have carried the work- house system much further than the rules necessarily insisted ; but there has been a gradual approximation to the introduction of the workhouse system in all those districts, resembling that which I contemplate as being about to be introduced into the manufacturing districts. 3385. Do I misunderstand you upon this point, that in your judgment the workhouse system has been pressed further in those unions than it ought to have been ? — No, I do not say so ; I meant to give the impression that the boards of guardians had very properly, in my judgment, carried it much further by their own discretion and practice than the rules of the Commissioners issued to them required. 3386. You state that you have witnessed in the north demonsti-ations of resist- ance to the new law ; "Certainly, but so there have been in the south of England ;" do you mean to say that the same sort of meetings, and other proceedings hostile to the new law, have taken place in the south, as we have heard of occurring in the north ? — In making that answer, I was alluding to demonstrations of popular violence ; I believe there have been in the south of England many cases of popular violence, nearly equal to any thing that has occurred of the same nature, or perhaps going further than any thing in the north of England. 3387. Can you specify any such instances ? — The attack made ujion the workhouse in one of Mr. Adey's unions, Ampthill ; and again Merthyr Tydvil. 3388. Mr. Li-sferJ] Has the agitation been carried to the extent that it has been in the north ? — There certainly have not in the south of England been the same kind of exertions made to excite the people ; but there have been, without such exertions, riotings on the part of the people. 3389. ]Mr. Hodges'] You stated in one of your former answers that you place more reliance on the workhouse test than on the efficacy of investigation into cases of distress ? — I do. 3390. Can you satisfy yourself that this indiscriminate test of the workhouse may not in all cases of the industrious but occasionally distressed poor be rather a test of their utmost endurance of suffering, than of a state of distress short of extremity, when relief ought to be afforded? — I do not doubt in my own mind that a great deal would be suffered by the industrious and respectable families before accepting of that mode of relief. There are, to my belief, throughout the district which I at ])resent superintend, numbers of the labouring })e()j)le, j)articularly during the last year, who have suffered great distress without ever even making an appHcation to the poor-rates for relief; and I do not believe that any system of relief could be safely and properly applied to a labouring population of any (iescrij)tion, which should entirely relieve them from the pressure of distress. 3391. In respect to tlie cases which you have alluded to, and you admit that great distress has been endured by industrious and res])ectable people, have the board of guardians any ])ossibility of acquiring knowledge of those cases, except through the relieving officer ? — Certainly ; the sources of information with the board of guardians are not confined to the relieving officer ; the guardian of the parish in which tlu; jiaujiers reside, or to which they belong, is a most important source of infornuition, ])articu!arly as regards the circumstances of the poor. With respect to my own district, I liave already stated that there will be, in addition to the relieving oflicers, a number of officers api)oiiited by the guardians as assistant- overaeers, residing in the ditlerent parts of tlie district, which will be another means of ON THE POOR LAW MIENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 9 of information ; and, considering the population, they are perhaps a necessary ^tf><:d Pov.er, Esq. 3392. Mr. Bailies.'] Is there any impediment to distressed parties themselves representing their cases to the board of guardians ? — There is no impediment ; they are ratlier invited to attend the board of guardians to state their own cases, but they are not imperatively required, according to the practice which prevails in the unions which I have superintended. 3393. 'Mr. Hod(/e.s.'\ Are you of opinion that the board of guardians ought to have the discretion of relieving cases of unquestionable distress which come before them, without applying the workhouse test ? — I am of opinion that it would not be expedient in any district of the country to issue a rule preventing the guardians from administering out-door relief as the first initiatory step to the introduction of the workhouse system ; and I believe I am correct in saying tliat there is no union to which any such rule has ever been applied in the first instance. 3394. Are you of opinion that the workhouse system has a direct tendency to raise wages ? — It may have that eflect in some districts, while it would not have that effect in others ; it would have in some districts, I believe, a direct effect in raising the rate of wages. 3395. Then, if it is your opinion that it has a direct effect, it has an indirect effect also ? — I believe it has an indirect effect in many instances. 3396. Will you show, by reasoning, how that effect is brought about ? — I think that it M'ill have that effect, by doing away with causes which lead to a great de- preciation of the wages of labour; whenever the poor-rates were resorted to as a source out of which part of the wages of labour should be paid, I feel quite con- fident that in some parts of agricultural districts where the wages have become very low, this had arisen, if not wholly, in a great measure, from the practice of giving out-door relief in money to imemployed able-bodied men. I feel no doubt that this had the effect of accumulating upon the particular spot a large number of persons who otherwise would not have been accumulated there. This circum- stance redounded to the convenience of the employer of labour, and the reduction of the wages which he would otherwise have been fairly called upon to pay for the labour which he obtained. The employer would in such cases have at his command a supj)ly of labour to apply to whenever it was convenient ; and I know that the opposition which was first made to the introduction of the law in the agricultural districts by the occupiers of land, arose very much out of the inconvenience which they expected would be produced by removing out of their reach a portion of this convenient labour. I will give, you one instance from memory, which will strongly illustrate what I mean. The parish of Sawbridgeworth, in Bishop Stortford Union, at the time the union was formed memorialized, the PoorLawCommissioners against the project of their being included in that union ; and in doing so they state as one of the grievances, that they contemplate " very serious inconviinience would arise by the able-bodied labourers being five miles distant from them,that is inStortford work- house, having found by experience, that in this variable climate, at certain seasons .. of the year, the lands are rendered fit to be worked in a very short period, and it ' will be very troublesome to travel so far after labourers." From numerous instances of that nature which occurred to me about the same time, I felt satisfied that the old system had the effect of retaining for the convenience of the employers, and much to the prejudice of the men themselves, a large accunuilation of labour, which would not be the case if the workhouse system should be introduced instead of the out-door relief, and which has, in fact, been justified by the experiment which has been made. I think that there was also a depreciation of the wages of labour in this way, that of those persons who were so kept by the parish allowance upon the spot, the younger part were growing up very unfit for the perfcmuance of any branches of agricultural labour ; they were used to idle upon the roads and in gravel- pits, without any thing to do, with a very small allowance per week, and unless at seasons Avhen labour was particularly scarce, the cmi)lo3-crs of land in their omii parish would not consent to have them upon their premises ; I have found that to be the case, and I have heard that complained of to a very great extent ; the decrease of the intrinsic value of the labour of men who were growing up in that way must have operated to a very great extent upon the amount of «aoes which the employers could afford to give them. 3397. Mr. Scropc] Do not the objections which you have just stated to the 1 03. B giving: 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Povier, Esq. giving of out-door relief in agricultiiral districts, apply as forcibly to a similar mode of relief in the manufacturing districts ?— I think they do. 2 March 1838. 3398. Lord Hoioick.'] With reference to the questions put to you some time ago, as to the inquiries which are made into the cases of applicants for relief, do you not conceive it to be impossible by any inquiiy to ascertain what have been the causes of their distress, whether it has arisen fi-om unavoidable accident or improvidence, or from positive misconduct and intemperance ? — I think it exceed- ingly difficult to inquire into the causes of distress, and also as to the extent to which the distress may exist. 3399. But whatever may be the causes which have led to that distress, when it exists it must be relieved ? — Certainly. 3400. Then, unless direct encouragement is to be given to improvidence and misconduct, relief should be given in such a manner that no person will apply for it, if he can possibly avoid it ? — I think it ought to be so. 3401. And that would make it undesirable for the interests of the labouring classes themselves to relieve them from that hardship which you described a short time ago as endured by them before they apply for admittance into the workhouse ? — I think it would not be for the interest of the labouring classes to relieve them from a certain degree of suffering and distress before they should be induced to make application for relief from the poor-rates. 3402. Mr. iS'cro^e.] Does not the suffering alluded to, which arises from refusing out-door relief, fall upon a few individuals only — for example, a man with a numerous family ? — That would be one class who might suffer from such a rule ; there might be other portions of the labouring class also suffering to a certain extent ; under the same rule a single able-bodied man might be very hard pressed for a short space of time in endeavouring to get on without relief from the poor- rates ; and indeed we find in practice that some of those single men who have been thrown out of emplojTnent have not any immediate prospect before them, and that they do accept of the workhouse relief. There is no class which I consider may not be exposed, under the workhouse system, to some greater degree of suffering than they would be exposed to under the system of receiving out-door relief in money ; but I consider it of the greatest importance to themselves as well as the community, and to have a most salutary effect, that some degree of suffering should be undergone by those parties before they should receive relief fi-om the poor-rate, or rather that they should not be prevented from feeling the pressure of necessity. 3403. Do you not find in practice that a single labourer, a young man of good character, is more likely to obtain employment in unions where out-door relief is refused to the able-bodied than he was under the old system ? — I have no doubt that able-bodied single men of good character may, in any part of the country, obtain in a year sufficient to maintain themselves throughout the year ; but when the change was first introduced in the south of England, there were a great many single men of bad characters, whom no one would employ, and those were the chief persons who came into the workhouse in the first instance- I believe the change of the law had the effect of altering their characters, and induced the farmers to take them, it may be said under protection of the workhouse, but many of them had to go a good distance for employment. 3404. Under the former law was not the single man of good character some- times refused employment, upon the farmer saying to him, "You have no family, and can easily maintain yourself upon 2 s. and 8 *. a week; I must employ a man with a large family, who will come with his family upon the parish, if I do not employ him"? — Numbers of men, both single and married, were thrown out of employment under the old system, who under the present system would not be thrown out of employment, I have known instances of the very best labourers who had been in the service of the same employer 20 or 30 years together, and had never left his service for all that time, being thrown out of work, because some other farmers Jiad thrown some men out of Avork in the same parish ; men of the best description of character have suffered from that cause. 340.5. While there are instances of persons who have suffered by the present system, there is an equal number of others who have improved by the change ? — I have no doubt l)ut a far greater proportion have improved in their circumstances than those who have suffered. 3406. Would you consider it any leniency to the class of labourers in general to offl'r ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) n nffpr a form of relief to individual labourers, which is injurious to the entire class, Alfred Poxcer, Esq. as tending to depress their condition, by overstocking the market Math labour?- ^-^;^^- I should say that, on the contrary, it would be particularly injurious. "- March .838. ^407 Chairman.-] You say that, in the districts in the south of England winch were under your superintendence, the rule prohibiting out-door relief to the able- bodied was not in force ?-It was not in any of the unions. 0408 That rule not being in force, what was the general practice of the boards of guardians ?-I think I may state, that the universal practice of the boards of LnlLs was to discontinue, in a very short time after their formation, the system of givino- out-door relief in money to men not m employment ; the expression used throughout that district was money for lost time. . , . q.OQ That practice was discontinued ?-That practice was discontinued univer- sally throughout the whole district, relief being given in tlie workhouse instead, with labour ; in some boards it was altered by continuing the relief out of doors butVvingit in return for a day's work, and with very great effect, and without ofFerhiff the workhouse, particularly to married men with families. 04,0 What was the practice of the board of guardians with reference to the able-bodied labourers who were in the employment of individuals ?-That practice would vary in different unions, as it appeared to me it ought to vary, in the first Instance with reference to the real resources which were witlun the reach of the abourers I have stated that the wages varied in some parts of one county Essex, o much is from 6 .., and 7*. to 12 .. a week ; therefore the boards of guardians m Afferent districts would use a different practice as to the stopping of allowances to Arsons in employment in aid of wages, but invariably a substitution of relief Fn provisions 4as introduced instead of money. I am not acquainted very Recently with the state of the district; but I should think it not at all improbable that relief may be given now by some of those boards of guardians m provisions to persons, even in employment, in extreme cases, where there was a large number of small children unable to assist their parents. 341 1 The relief formerly given for lost time to labourers not in employment was withdrawn ?— I think it was universally. 0412 The relief given in aid of wages Avas not given as universally as formerly it had been?—It was suppressed entirely in many unions. _ 04, o And in others given less frequently than before ?-Certainly 5 , 4 What was the effect, upon the employment of the labourers, of the stricter enforcement ofthe administration of relief?-! made it my business to inquire particularly of parties most acquainted with the working of the new system, after the earliest unions had been at work for one year, and the answers that I received from the chairman or the clerk, or other parties conversant with the working of the union, were afterwards contained in my printed report to the Poor Law Com- missioners I think in almost all the unions to which I applied for that informa- S^.n it wks said that much more employment had been given, and that the character of the labourers had been very much changed, and that was one cause why they were more employed; another cause would be, that the great reduction Tf rates already eff^ected, and the prospect of a further reduction of the ra es, had led the occupiers of land to expend more capital m the cultivation of the land than they had done previously. , . . \a^ '^ Did you understand, as the result of those inquiries which you then made, that this increase of employment was, that the employment given to the hidiv dual labourer was more constant, or that the members of his family, tlie children and his wife, were more employed than they had been hitherto, or both ? —I heard that the employment was more constant, and I also heard fi-om many quarters, that the children were more employed than formerly. C.A16 If therefore under those circumstances, the nominal rate of wages 11. that particdar district has not increased, still the earnings of the man during the whok year, if his employment was more constant, and if employment was more generally given to the members of his family, would be greater than they have been hiJherto? -Certainly they would. Another increase of resources would be this that whereas before an able-bodied man, unencumbered, who had been employed during a great portion of the year, would spend his earnings as he went on, and then come upon the rates during the period of his non-emplo>Tnent, a great increase of resources of that class was certainly realized by preventing that improvident application of their earnings, because they have only before them 183. B2 tb^ 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COACNnTTEE Alfred Potcer, Esq. the prospect of receiving relief from the workhouse, with hard labour, instead of being relieved as before, week by week, with money. a -NJarch 1838. 3417. jMr. Hodges.'] Your last observation applies to men with families ? — Not particularly ; it would not apply to any class of labourers who had providently and well applied all their earnings. 341 8. Lord Hou-ick.] Do you mean to say that it is impossible, at the present time, for a married labourer with a family, in any instance, to make provision during the better part of the year for the difficulties of the wiaiter ? — No ; the effect of my ansA^er was, that the previous observation applied to all parties, both men with families and single men, who had made an imjirovident use of their earnings, but that it would not apply to any other class but those who had made an improvident use of their earnings. 341 Q. Chairman.] You say that, in your opinion, what is called the test of the workhouse, that is the refusal of out-door relief to the able-bodied labourer, should be introduced into a district gradually? — Yes, I am certainly of that opinion. 3420. Do you contemplate ultimately coming to that test as the sole mode by which relief should be administered to the able-bodied, wth reference either to your present district or to your former district ? — I have reason to think that that was the object and drift of the framers of the Poor Law Amendment Act — that that should be the ultimate result throughout the whole kingdom — that relief out of doors to able-bodied persons, except under very peculiar circumstances, should not be given, but that such relief should be given in the workhouse. That appears to be the principle of the Act of Parliament. A peremptory order to that effect from the Commissioners has not been at present issued to, I believe, more than 100 out of COO or 700 unions that have been formed in the country. I should not like to take upon myself to answer, on behalf of the Poor Law Com- missioners, as to whether it is their intention to issue that rule to all the rest of the agricultural districts in the first instance, or whether they are determined to issue it to the manufacturing districts at any future period. 3421. It being your opinion that the rule prohibiting out-door relief to the able- bodied should be introduced gradually according to the circiuustances of each dis- trict, supposing that rule not to be in force, are there other means which you would have recourse to in order to distinguish cases that may require relief from those which do not absolutely require it ? — There is another most effectual mode of meeting the application of able-bodied persons, namely, in return for the relief which you afford them, taking their whole time, and setting them to labour. 3422. Do yoti think that arrangements, even in agricultural districts, and where the population is scattered, could easily be made for superintending this out-door labour test ? — Certainly ; I have known instances M-licre it has been done with very great effect. 3423. Are you of opinion that it is indispensable for the just administration of relief that some test should be applied to distinguish between cases ? — I think so, certainly. 3424. Do you think individual examination would enable a board of guardians, or a select vestry, or the parish overseer, or any individual or body who may be named, accurately to distinguish betM-een those cases which really require relief, and those which do not? — I think it would not. 342,5. That being the case, you Avould consider that, for the secure administra- tion of relief, some test must be adopted ? — I think so. 3426. In particular cases you would prefer the workhouse test ? — Yes. 3427. In others you would think it desirable, at all events upon the first forma- tion of a union, to adopt the out-door labour test ? — I should in some unions. 3428. But you think some such test absolutely indispensable: — I do. 3429. From the imi)ossibility of discriminating accurately, upon individual ex- amination, cases which really require relief from those which do not require it ? — On that accoimt I entertain that opinion. 3430. Under the former administration of relief did not the gTeat difficulty that was felt by magistrates or overseers in distinguishing between cases arise from the want of some such test ? — I think so, certainly. 3431. Have you known instances, either in your former district or in your pre- sent, in which relief under the former system appeared to you to be improvidently given ? — Certainly, in both districts. 3432. In the agricultural district which was formerly under your superintend- ence. ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 13 •ence, was not the administration of relief very lax and imperfect? — I think it was Alfred Foxier, Esq. certainly carried on without the means of knowledge as to the real wants of the parties applying. 2 March i«38. 3433. Do you attribute the want of those means mainly to the absence of some test ? — I do ; I think that no means which can be devised will altogether supply the absence of the workhouse system, or will avail to enable any body of men to administer relief so safely and effectually as the Morkhouse system. 3434. In cases where it should not be thought right at once to introduce the workhouse system, and luitil the workhouse system is introduced, thinking as you do that some out-door labour test should be applied, Mliat are the conditions, in your opinion, under which that test should be applied ? — The condition would be, that the person's whole time should be taken during the period that he is receiving relief, and working for the parish. 3435. Do you mean, by taking the labourer's whole time, that the whole expense of the maintenance of the labourer and his family should be provided for out of the labour test, and that it should fall upon the parish? — Undoubtedly, that sufficient relief should be given to him in return for his whole time. 3436. Do you think it also desirable that the description of work to which he is set should be such as not to interfere with the ordinary labour of tlie district r — I tliink it extremely desirable, where it can by possibility be effected. 3437. And you think, in agricultural districts, that some means of superintend- ing this labour might be had recourse to where it was adopted in aid of the work- house test ? — Yes, I do certainly. It is very difficult in the agricultural districts to find out-door labour for agricultural men, which Avill not interfere with the emplojTnent of the district ; in fact I know, from my former inquiries, that the labour market was very much interfered with by the feeble attempts of this nature were made in some districts. The whole emplo^Tiient upon roads which in some parishes was very considerable, and would have afiorded considerable resources to independent labourers, was taken to supply the wants of men who ought never to have had it, and thereby the independent labourer was thrown out of work, and came upon the parish. 3438. If there were a difficulty in providing labour which should not interfere with the general labour of the district, what course would you recommend to be adopted ? — The form of employment which was adopted to a great extent in my former district, was one that had little reference to any profit from the labour ; it was that of grinding by hand-mills the corn for the use of the establishment ; that would not be a profitable mode of employing labour, but it MTjuld have the effect of taking the man's whole time, and serving as a test of the reality of the destitution ; that I think to be the least objectionable form of labour, whether out-door or in-door, in agTicultural districts, because, in fact, the labour Avhich is displaced by the pauper there is merely that of the elements of wind or water. 3439. In an agricultural union, some of the parishes of Avhich are at a consider- able distance from the workhouse, how would you find it possible to adopt this mode of giving labour by hand-mills ? — It has been done, with reference to parishes which are at a distance, in this ^vay, that the men being paid for a whole day's Avork, those at a distance would have to walk to the place and walk back again, which would be taken as a part of their day's work. 3440. But sujiposing tlie residence of the man to whom you propose to give this sort of work were ten miles from the centre of the union? — Ten miles would be too far perhaps. 3441. You must be aware that in several of the agricultural unions there are some parishes at that distance from the centre? — Certainly it would be necessary, in such cases as those, to supply means of out-door labour in that quarter of the union which would require a separate superintendence. 3442. Mr. Scropc.^ Are there any unions in your cognizance where there are not hills which miglit be cut down, or extra improvements in the roads, not likely to be adopted under ordinary circumstances, that might be made use of as a labour test? — No doubt there are in most unions, either in the north of England or the south ; there are such means of meeting extraordinary circumstances. 3443. Would not such an employment as that answer all the purposes of tlie test that you require, and at the same time not interfere with the ordinary market of labour ? — It would, if properly superintended. 3444. Would there be any difficulty in properly superintending such a mode •of employment ? — There would be no difficulty in a large management ; with a 183. B 3 small 14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Power, Esq. Small townsliip there would be a disproportionate amount of expenditure necessary L to secure a "-ood superintendence, but with an union of many townships, and with 2 March 1838. a lars^e expenditiu-e, there would be no disproportionate expense in providing proper superintendence. 3445. And placed under the management of the board of guardians of the union, it is less likely that there should be any abuse or mal-administration in the mode of relief? — I conceive so. 3446. Mr. Esfco7irt.'] Is it not, in fact, very desirable that the labour which is applied as a test should bring in no profit at all ? — I think it is, in fairness towards the industrious class who are maintaining themselves upon the employment of the district ; in fairness to those who have difficulty to get on, and to keep from the poor-rates, it ought to be of such a nature as to bring as little profit as possible. 3447. Is it not in another point of view also desirable that it should bring no profit, namely, that that would induce the farmers more readily to find work for them, Avhcn' they found that they had to maintain them in doing that which brought in no return? — I have no doubt that that effect would be produced. Where the employment which is given on the part of the community to the pauper interferes with the ordinary labour of the district it is injurious to persons who are maintaining themselves by independence ; at the same time, if some work is undertaken which otherwise would not be imdertaken, it does not produce the disadvantage to which I have alluded. 3448. Mr. Baltics.] If there can be found work which would not be undertaken otherwise, and which would be profitable, you would have the board of guardians to employ people receiving relief in such work ; if, on the contrary, it was not so, you would rather that they should be employed in work altogether unproductive, than that they should remain idle ? — I think so. 3449. Mr. Edcourt.'] Do you not think, that in order to make this a good test, it ought to be such a test as shall in no way interfere with any kind of labour in the union in which it is applied?— It must be productive of injury to industrious persons maintaining themselves by labour, if it interfere with their employment. 3450. Supposing that such a test were to be general, would it not be a very undesirable thing that the application of it should depend upon whether any public work can be found or not ; ought it not to be a test which can be applied at all times and at all seasons, if it is to be a general test r— If no work of public general utility, which would not be otherwise undertaken, could be found, I then think we should be driven upon something similar to the test which I have been mentioning before, the hand corn-mill, as the next resort. We found this difficulty occurring in the agTicultural unions, that whenever you had this test properly superin- tended, as where there were no Avorkhouses for the parish, you could not undertake, under such circumstances, any great work; in fact, I know that Avorks were undertaken that were obliged to be given up, because nobody would come to work at them, and at very good wages too ; but I would qualify that by saying, that any crisis of difficulty which should throw a great body of the labouring ])opulation out of employment would be very properly met, I should conceive, by undertaking some great work. 3451. Is it not reasonable to conclude, from the experiment which has as yet been made of the test of the workhouse, that if you were allowed to apply the labour test, you, would, in fact, find very few persons to relieve in that way ? — I think so indeed, under ordinary circumstances, in any part of England. 3452. If, therefore, the law permitted you, or the rules of the Commissioners permitted you to apply this labour test generally, is it not a matter of indifference whether the work to which you put them is productive of public or private advan- tage ; ought it not to be simply considered as a test of destitution ? — I should prefer that the i)ublic should derive some advantage from the expenditure of the public money, if possible. 3453. Mr. Frcslijicld.'] Under ordinary circumstances you would prefer applying the workhouse test ? — I would. 3454. Under extraordinarj- circumstances you Avould apply the labour test if you could ? — Under such circumstances as might arise in the manufacturing districts, it would be impossible to apply the workhouse test under the present Act of Parlia- ment, because it does not authorize a sufficient expenditure in building work- houses to meet such a crisis. 3555. And the result of your experience is to produce a conviction upon your mind that the guardians should have a discretion ? — The result of what I have stated before is, that the guardians should, in first proceeding to administer relief, not ON THE POOR LAW AJVIENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 15 not be confined to an exclusive workhouse system with respect to able-bodied ; Alfitd Power, Esq , and I further think that, witli reference to the manufacturing districts, circum- stances might and probably will arise hereafter, where the workhouse system could - ^^^'^^ 1838. not solely be adopted. 3456. You think that the former system had the effect of keeping down wages, because the labourers were kept in the district where they received head-money in addition to the wages, and that left a great surplus labour at the disposal of the employer ? — Yes, I think it had a tendency to accumulate labour to the conve- nience of the employer. 3457. Do you not think it possible that the present system, taking the same elements into consideration, may have the effect of reducing wages ; suppose the case that you have yourself described, the case of extreme distress on the part of the labourer, and yet a determination on his part not to go into the workhouse, would he not accept employment on any terms rather than go into the workhouse ? — He would not accept employment upon any terms ; I consider that he has always the workhouse to throw himself back upon ; but he Avould with very great diffi- culty go into the workhouse ; but still that does back him up in some degree in his demand for wages. If you have a state of things where it is equally eligible for him to take wages from the employer, or to take wages from the parish, it is a point that never can be maintained ; any system of relieving able-bodied per- sons, to continue, must be (as is shown by past experience) something less eligible than service with the private employer ; the question may be one of degree. 3458. Supposing the labourer to have made up his mind not to go into the workhouse, would it not be natural to him to accept of very low wages which might be offered to him by the employer ? — Yes, if it is a determined point that he will not take the workhouse, and no other relief is oftered to him, then he would no doubt take the lowest wages which he could subsist upon. 3459. And having made up his mind not to take the workhouse, the difficulty of his situation would be increased in proportion to the size of his family? — No doubt it would, with a certain amount of wages. 3460. Mr. Esfcourf.] Sujjposing an employer to offer to a man less wages than can maintain himself and his family, under the ordinary operation of the law at present there is no remedy but the workhouse ; wherever the prohibitory rule exists, do you not think that it would be safe to intrust to the board of guardians a discretion of offering that man relief in labour ? — -Your question implies that the labour which was offered by the board of guardians would be more eligible, or more profitable than the wages obtainable by private employ; and the effect of that would be, if that were the case with many labourers, to produce mischief ; they would prefer that to the labour of the private employers. 3461. Chairman.'] Would not that be a direct inducement upon the labourer to throw himself upon the poor-rates ? — Certainly it would have that eftect, and when you get that state of things established, the private emjiloyer has what he wants ; he can turn his labourers off at any season of the year, and they are ready for him, kept in fact by another party during the season that he does not want them. 3462. Mr. Slancy.'] Does not the difficulty of finding employment which shall not interfere with the ordinary employment of the labourer of the parish, form a very considerable obstacle to putting in force the out-door labour test ? — It cer- tainly does. 3463. Is it not extremely difficult to discriminate between the labour which would otherwise have been undertaken by an individual and that which would not otherwise have been undertaken by an individual ? — Extremely difficult. 3464. Just in proportion as it is unprofitable is the likelihood of its not beino- undertaken by an individual ? — Just so. 3465. If it yields a profit or advantage to any one, just in that proportion is it likely to be undertaken by an individual? — Yes. 3466. The difficulty, therefore, of discriminating is very great ? — It is, cer- tainly. 3467. Do you not think that this objection is sufficient to prevent out-door labour being used as the common test, although it might be advisable to use it as a test tmder extraordinary circumstances ? — I think it is a sufficient reason alone ; if there was a great body of labourers out of employ in any district, who could not be conveniently received into the M'orkhouse, or there was an universal pressure, it would be desirable to meet that by some extraordinary exertions. 183. B4 3468; Tiien i6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Power, Esq. 2 March 1838. 3468- Then do you not think that the rule should be, to offer the workhouse to the able-bodied, but that under extraordinary circumstances, such as a long frost or anv other cause, Avhich may throw out a great body of Avorkmen, the guardians should have a discretion, not as the ordinary rule, but as an exception to the rule, to "-ive out-door labour? — Under extraordinary circumstances it Avould be un- doubtedly right, and indeed necessary, to give out-door labour ; but I do not see that the advantage of the offer in each individual case is diminished with respect to the increase of cases, until you come to that state of things, when, if the workhouse is not full, still you expect that it will not meet all the cases which are likely to arise. 3469. You think, then, that the discretion ought to be gauged by the capa- bility of the workhouse, and not by any other circumstance ? — Not exactly by the capability of the Morkhouse ; I do not think the guardians should stay to the point of time when the workhouse is full, but that the point of time would be when there was a prospect of not meeting the whole pressure without filling the workhouse ; because if you had both systems at work at once, the workhouse test and the out-door labour test, it would be desirable to use the workhouse test with reference to some cases, and the out-door labour test with reference to other classes of cases ; to single men, or men not much encumbered in any way, it would be proper to offer relief in the workhouse ; but men with large families, and more encumbered, you would put to the out-door labour test. 3470. You do agree that in extraordinary cases the guardians should have the discretion of using the out-door labour test? — Those extraordinary occasions, wherever there has been the peremptory rule issued to the guardians, have been met by a relaxation of the rule. 3471. Chairman ^^ Under the provisions or the Act, would not extraordinary cases be met by the words " sudden emergency " ? — Those words, if you are re- ferring to the words of the Act, and not to the rales of the Commissioners, may bear a doubtful interpretation. 3472. Mr. Slanej/.] Would it not then be right to do aAvay with that doubtful interpretation, and have it clear? — I think it would be right to have it known what is meant. 3473. Do you not think that the removing of that doubtful interpretation would do away with a great deal of antipathy and opposition to the Poor Law Amend- ment Act ?— I do not know what the interpretation might be. 3474. Explained, so as to give the guardians a discretion of applying an out- door labour test in extraordinary cases?— The difficulty in interpreting the word is to know exactly to what state of circumstances it applies. 3475. Do not you think that explanation of the rule, so as to give the guardian the power of applying the out-door labour test instead of tlie in-door test, would do away with a great deal of the clamour whicli has been raised against the Poor Law Amendment Act ? —I think very likely that any relaxation on the part of the Commissioners in this or in any other mode would have the effect of dimi- nishing the dissatisfaction ; but I am not in that answer saying that it would do good absolutely. 3476. Chairman.'] In any supposed case where a difficulty arose in carrying the rule into operation, would not the Commissioners, on being ai)plied to, give their opinion upon the case ? — Certainly they would. 3477. JNIr. Estcourf.] You have given your opinion as to the application of the labour test in extraordinary cases ; do you think it a desirable thing that the power of applying this labour test should reside generally with the board of guar- dians, that is, whenever in their discretion they thought it desirable to adopt it ? — INIy experience of the working of board of guardians at jiresent has been, that I have seen some Ijoards of guardians — I am alluding particularly to those which I formerly superintended — in which that latitude of discretion A\ould not be, as far as one can judge from present circumstances, attended with any danger or any mischief; but 1 am not sure whether that observation Avill ai)])Iy to all the boards of o-uardians in that district, and I very much doubt whether it would ajiply to all the unions in the kingdom. 3478. Mr. Hodges.'] You have said in a former answer, that, Mith regard to the persons whom you would recommend to be subjected to either test, the labour test would be best applied to men with families, and that single men might at once be exposed to the test of the workhouse ; is not that placing the single man in a less advantageous situation than the married man ? — It has been assumed in this ON THE POOR LAW MIENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 17 this inquiry, that tlio wdikhmiso system anrl the out-door system are employer! in Alfred Power, Esq. conjunction with each other, througii the force of necessity, tliat is, either from the fulness of the workhouse or the aj)prehension of its being full ; the reason for my '^ March 1838. saying that the workhouse system had better be ajiplied to the single men, and the out-door labour test to tlie married men, is, that you Avould thereby meet a greater number of cases of a])plication without filling your workhouse. 34 79. From whatever motive you make that selection, the fact would be, that the single man would be in a situation less advantageous than the married man? — He -would under those circumstances, supposing that the out-door labour test is more eligible than the workhouse system, which may be supposed, generally speaking. 3480. Was it not supposed to be a great objection to the old law that the farmers were in the habit of giving less wages to a single man, and thereby putting him in a worse situation than the married man ? — Yes, I have heard that stated as an objection to the old law. 3481. Then would not the system which you recommend have precisely the same eftcct, by inducing the single man to draw com])arisons unfavourable to his situation, as compared with the married man, the one being employed out of doors, and the other being admitted into the workhouse? — Certainly that would be the case ; but we are supposing a case of an extraordinary nature, whereas, with respect to the practice of the old law, it was rather an ordinary state of things, and continuing. 3482. If it should turn out, upon inquiry, that a great difference is made actually in the unions already existing, in the emplojinent of married and single men, then one of the beneficial effects of the new law, namely that of checking early indiscreet marriages, will tail? — So far as that goes. 3483. Mr. Barnes.] Do you hear of any intention to introduce a distinction between the maixied and single men ? — No ; I am now speaking of a supposed state of things arising from the jieculiar difficulties. 3484. Is there any probability of that distinction being introduced ? — The evil, if arising, would be felt to be an evil, no doubt, by parties managing, and would be avoided as nmch as possible. 3485. Mr. Scropc] Have not the single men, at all times, this decided advan- tage over the married men, that they can subsist at a less rate of \\aoes, and then they can beat out to other districts in search of emplo}7nent ? — Yes, undoubtedly they have. 3486. Would not this justify a different mode of treatment, on the part of the board of guardians, of the single men from their treatment to the married men? — Single men would certainly have a better opportunity of providing for themselves. 3487. Mr. Freshfield.'] You feel it important not to interfere with the labour market ; that is one of your principles ? — It is. 3488. Would you think it an extraordinary circumstance, if it should happen that in a district there was a disposition on the part of the farmers not to give reasonable wages ? — That is not one of the cases which I should think extraor- dinary. 3489. If you found such cases to exist, you would counteract the evil by giving the man an opportunity to go into the workhouse ? — Yes. 3490. And that, you consider, would correct the evil, because it would throw a great ex]iense on the parish, and they would be disi)0fsed to give fair wages rather than maintain the families in the workhouse? — I do not look to that as the only mode in which it would have a tendency to that ; the operation to which I look chiefly is, that it will prevent that which has heretofore been the case, viz. a surplus pojjulation of labourers for the convenience of the employers ; by sur- plus I mean a greater population than can fairly maintain themselves by their exertions the whole year round. 3491. You do not consider that the danger of having to maintain those men in the workhouse is one of the correctives of this evil? — So far as it conijiels the employer of labour to employ the man that he would not otherwise employ, I do not think it an entirely sound and satisfactory operation of the law ; he employs a man, not because he wants him, but to avoid the expense of maintaining him in the workhouse ; I do not look upon that as a wholesome operation of the law ; if a man is to be employed whether the employer will or not, he loses the stimulus to good 1 83. c behaviour i8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Power, Esq. behaviour and industry ; morally it cannot be right, and pecuniarily it would be a hardship on the employer. 2 March 1838. 34Q2. Still if the man cannot get wages upon which he and his family can live, lie must go into the workhouse ? — Under an exclusive workhouse system he must. 3493. Do you happen to know any thing of the state of the agricultural labour in 1821 and 1822, during the great depression of agriculture ?^ — No, I am not much acquainted with any detail upon that subject. 3494. Mr. Lister.] With regard to the Settle Union, did you meet -with any opposition in forming the union ? — I did not. 3495. The agitators never got into that neighbourhood? — No. 3496. Therefore you found them quiet there ? — Perfectly so. 3497. Have you heard that the poor are satisfied with the operation of the new Jaw? — I have not heard to the contrary. 3498. Have you been there lately ? — I have been there within a month or iive weeks, and the people there were very quiet. I can mention one instance, of a nature likely to produce satisfaction ; it was a very old man who applied, fi-om a to\vnship out of the union, for relief; and it was, I believe, in consequence of the guardians thinking that the relations could maintain him, that he was offered relief in the workhouse at Settle, and he came there ; a short time after he had been in the workhouse some person died and left him a legacy of 1,500/., and then the question arose, whether he should remain in the workhouse, or should o-o back to live Avith his relations, who would have been glad to see him ; but he told the guardians, that if they had no objection, he would remain there and pay for his maintenance ; that he was perfectly satisfied where he was. 3499. Did you not meet with opposition in the Skipton Union? — After the formation of the Ski])ton Union, and when the regulations of the Commissioners to administer relief first came down, there was some opposition evinced by a great number of the guardians of the union. 3500. Since the law has begun to work, has that ceased? — The difficulty was overcome after two meetings, and it has not recurred. 350 1 . Have you heard it stated whether the poor there are satisfied or dissatis- fied with the law as it is working ? — I have not heard but that they are satisfied ; there has been no opposition of any ^dolent nature made. 3502. Have you been able to establish a union at Keighley? — The union has been formed some time since, and guardians have been elected, and all the functions they have been called upon to perform have been done, namely, what arose imder the Registration Act, and also some townships have received valuation orders ; but they have not yet, in common with many other unions, been called ui)on to administer relief to the poor. 3503. Had you your great-coat torn from your back there? — I had my great- coat torn there. 3504. Do you think that that would have arisen if a person had not got up into a wagon and harangued the people ? — I am not acquainted with that parti- cular fact having occurred at that time ; exertions were made by indiAiduals at Keighley, undoubtedly, to excite j popular attention to the circumstance of my coming, and, I have no doubt, in such a manner as to lead to the treatment I received. 3505. Did you at Bradford, when you went there, find the five magistrates entertaining a feeling of hostility to the Poor LaAV ? — I had heard that some of them were disinclined to the introduction of the Poor Law, and I know that one of the five gentlemen expressed his feeling in public very strongly against its introduction. 3506. Do you, or do you not know, that those five magistrates are all in favour of it now r — I really believe that they are, from everything that I can learn. 3507. Did you find that the old Poor Law there had been pretty well managed? — In many points I think it had been well managed, better in some townships than in others. There was one exception that I should make to that, that I do not think any of the workhouses m the Bradford Union were properly regulated ; but in the township of Bradford I should say that there was a very effective administration of relief, so far as 1 can judge by comparing the past expenditure M'ith the pojiula- tion, and what I otherwise know of the abih'ty of the officers. 3508. Has it occurred to you, or have you been informed, that some mismanage- nieuts under the old system have been found out since the introduction of the new Poor ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 19 Poor Law, and since tlie guardians have assumed the administration of relief? — Alfred Power, Esq. I have had a good deal of communication witli tlie clerk of the union, who liad made himself conversant with the actual state of the management in that district 2 March 1838. to a greater extent than I had an opportunity of doing ; he had done so before the guardians assumed the direction ; I knoAV that some of the townships were not so well managed as others, but I am not aware, I think, of the particulars to which you allude. 3509. Then you have not heard it said that one family has been relieved for 20 years together, and during that time has built three cottages? — I have not heard of that })articular instance. 3510. How did you find the workhouses managed there?— I had an oppor- tunity of visiting two of them only, the Bradford workhouse and the Idle workhouse. With respect to the Idle workhouse, it was certainly in a better state of management than it had been a short time before, as I learnt from the governor who had been recently appointed ; but it was not in a state satisfactory to me or to the governor himseif. 351 1. It had formerly had a great many townships attached to it, had it not? — Yes, several townships had sent their poor there. 3512. Do you know the greatest distance of any of the townships that sent their poor to that place ? — No, I do not ; I have known, in other similar cases, 20 miles to be the distance which one township will send to another under such circumstances. 3513. You do not know that Skipton formerly sent their paupers there ? — No ; that must have been some time since, for they have a workhouse at Skipton now. 3514. Have you heard how the Poor Law is working in Bradford at present? — I hear that every thing is going on well, and in a satisfactory manner to the board of guardians themselves. 351.5. Have you heard that the out-door relief has been administered in kind or substance lately, and what satisfaction it has given to the families of those who have received it ? — I have heard that they arc administering relief in provisions, but I have not heard any particular account of the effect ; in the Blackburn Union, where relief has been administered for some time in provisions, I heard, rather to my surjirise, that the change from money to provisions was received with very great satisfaction by the families. 3516. Then you have not had any communication with Bradford lately? — No, I have not been there since the gaiardians undertook the administration of relief, except upon business which detained me the whole time that I was there. 3517. With regard to the disturbance which took place there, had you had several meetings before there was any disturbance ? — I had attended meetings of the guardians before that time without any disturbance, l)ut those were previously to the issue of the order to assume the administration of relief; I had attended the first meeting under that order, to assist the guardians in carrying it into effect. 3518. There had been some meetings before the disturbance took place? — There had been meetings under the original order of the union, which prescribed to the guardians their functions under the Registration Act, and there had been other business, relating to the Assessment Act, done by them. 3519. Do you think that there would have been any disturbance at present, if it had not been for the agitators and peojile coming in from a distance ? — I think that there would not, certainly ; the mode which had been used for the purpose of collecting a crowd of persons was this — the bellman was sent round with an intimation that the Assistant-commissioner was coming, and that had been done not only in Bradford, but in some of the country townshi]:>s ; and, from the informa- tion which I had upon the spot, I believe many of the people assembled upon that morning, which was after all a very small iunnl)er, came from the country ; they were not many of them Bradford people, therefore I have no doubt, if that step had not been taken, that no excitement would have arisen. 3520. Mr. Baiues.] You have said that in the Warrington Union the guardians continue to pay rents for the poor, and to administer out-door relief ; is that up to the present time? — They have not taken into their possession the two workhouses which they had previously determined on occupying; all the relief, therefore, that they administer is out-door relief at present, that is partly given in provisions; and, with reference to the payment of rents, I am not quite aware of their practice, 1 83. c 2 whether 20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Power, Esq. whether they do continue to pay rents or not ; but I know that I have pointed out that it is illegal to give relief in that shape. e March 1838. 3521- Is that practice confined to Warrington, or does it extend to other unions that have been founded under your direction in the counties of Yorkshire and Lancashire? — There is no other union, of the 13 that are now in operation, which has taken the course that the guardians of the Warrington Union have ; tliey have all taken possession of the workhouses that are necessary for the common pur- poses of their respective unions ; many of them are far advanced in their arrange- ments for altering the workhouses, or furnishing them, or whatever was to be done in that respect. 3522. Do they apply, in those places where they have workhouses, the workhouse test uniformly, or do they do it with a certain degree of relaxation ? — They do not apply it uniformly to any particular class, but they apply it to all classes of paupers, where they think it is necessary to offer that test. 3523. But where an able-bodied man comes and applies for relief, do they say to that man, " We will not give you relief out of the house ; you may come into the house, and there you may be relieved'"? — That is the course adopted with respect to many able-bodied who apply for relief, but not with respect to all who come. 3524. What is the distinction between those able-bodied men to whom they apply that test, and those to whom they do not apply it? — Their own judgment of the circumstances, so far as they have come before them. 3525. Depending not on uniform practice, but upon the discretion of the guar- dians ?■ — -Certainly. 3526. And is that a practice which prevails in all the unions that you have formed in Lancashire and Yorkshire, or is it confined to some of them ? — I should say that there is not one of those unions which is not giving relief out of the ■workhouse to some cases of able-bodied poor; possibly there are extremely few cases in some unions, but I dare say there is not one that does not give at this time out-door relief in some cases of able-bodied persons. 3527. Then they have relaxed the rules, so that every union in the counties of Yorkshire and Lancashire is now at the discretion of the guardians, and, with the approbation and consent of the Commissioners, giving out-door relief when they think proper to give it? — The rule which was issued by the Commissioners to that district did not restrain the discretion of the guardians, in any instance, at the first point of time, therefore there has been no rule relaxed ; but it has never been the practice of the Commissioners to issue the peremptory rule forbidding out-door relief to able-bodied, in the first instance, to any union that has been formed. 3,528. Then the practice that has prevailed there is this : in some of the unions there has been relief given to able-bodied men when they have applied for relief out of the house, and that has not only been the case at Warrington and in some other places where they have not workhouses, but it has been so with regard to unions which have workhouses? — It is, more or less, I should say, the case in all the unions ; in the Settle Union, which is the one best provided as regards work- house establishment, and where there has been a proper disposition on the part of the guardians to discourage the applications of the able-bodied class, they have given, since the 2gth of September, some relief to those persons out of doors. 352q. And you attribute that to the circumstance of the labouring people in the manufacturing districts being apt to be thrown out of employment to a very large extent, and it being impossible to find workhouse accommodation for so large a number of persons as may by depression of trade be deprived of employment? — I do not apprehend but that the workhouse room now existing in most of those unions would be sufficient, under ordinary circumstances of trade, to follow out the practi:e of offering the workhouse to the able-bodied; although the practice of giving relief to the able-bodied in that district is very general, the whole amount of relief given to that chiss, and the number of paupers of that class, is very small indeed as regards the whole poj)ulation, and it is only under extraordinary circumstances of trade that I think that the workhouse accommodation, which either exists or which can be brought into existence, under the Poor Law Amendment A^ct, would be insuHicicnt to meet the numl)er of cases of that description. 3.530. Then, if there has been a prejudice raised against this system because it is uniform and rigiil in withholding relief from persons who have occasion to receive relief without coming into the workhouse, that prejudice is unfounded, because there not only is the power, but in all the unions in that large district that power ha 7 ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 21 has been exercised? — That power certainly resides in the board of guardians, and is now exercised by them, more or less, in all the unions, I should say. 3531. Therefore the practice is at variance wth that assertion, which is made so generally, that there is a necessity on the part of the guardians to withhold out-door relief? — It is at variance. 3532. Chairman.'] In all the unions vfith which you are acquainted, whethe*" manufacturing or agricultural, does not the number of paupers who receive out- door relief exceed the number who receive in-door? — Universally throui^hout the whole of England that is the case. 3533. Mr. Barnes.'] Do you mean that of able-bodied men there are more receiving out-door relief than in-door relief? — No, it does not of course apply to able-bodied persons. 3534. Is not the rule that persons who are advanced in years, so far as to be past labour, and persons labouring under infirm health, may be relieved out of the Morkhouse, without any difiiculty or impediment? — Yes. 3535. But if able-bodied men come and apply for relief in any of the unions, they are told that they must come into the workhouse, or they cannot be relieved ? — Yes; with regard also to aged and infirm persons, and other parties than able-bodied, it should be stated in explanation of the last question, that there is a great number of those cases upon which the workhouse system operates with peculiar advantage, in two ways ; first, that they are persons who would be better taken care of in the •workhouse than they possibly could be with the small allowance given to them out of doors; and also that there are a great many of them who ought to be maintained and taken care of by their relations, and to such cases the test of the workhouse is properly applied. ;^5Slj. At Leeds did you not attempt to form a board of guardians ; but, from some cause or other, after the voting papers had been sent out and returned, the for- mation of the board never took place ? — It did not ; the order to elect the board of guardians was subsequently rescinded by the Commissioners, upon my represent- ation of the facts which had taken place. 3537- Upon what facts ? — Upon these : I had been applied to by the parties at Leeds on both sides; in fact, on both sides it appeared from what had taken place during that election there would have been no satisfaction produced, whatever had been the result ; the overseers were put into a situation which they ought not to have been put into, jjcrhaps, on that occasion with respect to the election of the guardians. I had some ground to believe that the Commissioners were not adverse, and I am sure they were not adverse, to a division of the town into wards, for the purpose of conducting the election of guardians, and I had not the remotest idea that any difficulty was felt as to their power of doing it at that time; and I therefore, after consulting with the overseers then in authority in the town of Leeds upon the subject, drew up an order for the election of guardians, usino- the municipal wards, and directing the election of one, two, or three guardians for each ward ; that was laid before the Commissioners, and I had the fullest expectation that it would have been acted upon, and I believe, if the order had been acted upon, the difficulty which afterwards arose would not have arisen ; the Commissioners however, on taking legal advice on the subject, had reason to doubt, whether they had authority to direct the division of the townships into wards, and the order was changed to this extent, that the overseers should be allowed to cast up the votes in their several wards, leaving at the same time the distribution and collection of the voting papers, and the general conduct of the election, in the body of the overseers. It was suggested to me at the time that there ought to be, under those circumstances, a returning officer, that being the course which had been always pursued in the large metropolitan parishes where the board of guardians had been elected for a single parish. I however, thought it would be sufficient to authorize the overseers to cast up the votes separately in their several wards. On coming to Leeds, duriu" the progress of the election, I found that in the distribution and in the collection of the voting papers the overseers had not acted as a body, as it was intended they should, that they had acted individually in the several wards ; different practices had been pursued in the different wards; there had also been, through the default of some of the collectors appointed, great dissatisfaction produced ; from these and other circumstances it was strongly felt that on neither side, whatever was the result, the election would be satisfactory, and I felt that to be the case mvself, and I so Alfred Power, Esi.'\ Is that the case at Manchester r — I think there is a different practice in the INIanchester workhouse, but I am not quite clear what their practice is. 3561. Is there not a great number ot catholics in Manchester? — Yes. 3562. Would there not be a great number of catholics in the workhouses in Lancashire? — I should think there would be. 3563. Has it occurred to you what provision it would be necessary to make in reference to catholics, to whom it would be requisite that they should attend mass as a sacrament? — It has been contemplated at Liverpool that they should have a room provided for the purpose in the workhouse. 3564. Mr. Baines.'\ You have stated what the practice in the Liverpool work- house is with reference to catholics ; does that apply generally in other workhouses under the Poor Law Commissioners ? — That question has never arisen with me. 3565. Chai7ina7i.'\ Has it occurred to you that it would be necessary to make some such provision for catholics, the obligation upon them to attend mass as a sacrament being imperative ? — I always thought it a difficult question, and that it would at some time arise ; at present it has not practically arisen, and I cannot answer the question. 3566. Mr. Bailies.'] Do you know whether in your district, since the passing of the new Poor Law, there has been any material alteration as to the increase or diminution of bastardy cases in those places ? — There has been a great decrease of bastards affiliated, as compared with former years, universally throughout the district ; there has been a less rapid decrease of the number of bastards chargeable than there would naturally be, the old ones remaining chargeable ; with regard to the number of bastards born, I have heard, from several quarters, statements that they are not by any means decreased ; but, on the contrary, I have heard an opinion expressed of the number being increased. 3.567. Have you any data from which you can form a precise opinion upon that subject ? — There are no statistical returns that can be perfectly relied upon as to the number of bastards born, nor probably will be till the Registration Act is fully introduced and carried out perfectly ; but, from the returns made by the overseers of the townships, it appears that there is an increase in those districts. 3.568. Does that apply generally to all parts of the kingdom, both agricultural and manufacturing, with which you have been acquainted?- — I have not inquired as to the result, except with reference to Lancashire and the West Riding of Yorkshire. 3.569. In Lancashire and the West Riding of Yorkshire, your information ■would lead you to the conclusion that there has been an increase of bastards born since the new Poor Law? — It would, but I do not know that that information can be fully relied upon. 3570. Cfuimnan.] Have you heard this supposed increase of bastardy ascribed in any degree to the operation of the law ? — Yes, I have heard it ascribed to the operation of the law. 3571. In what respect ? — To the check which formerly existed upon the man beino: removed. 3572. What check was that? — The old bastardy law was, I should say, gene- rally very strictly administered in the north of England, there being almost every where a paid officer who could undertake the trouble of pursuing the putative father ; a great number of affiliations were made, and the general practice was for the overseers first to obtain the money from the putative father before they gave any relief to the woman. It was in fact treated, as it appears to me, throughout that district, as a system, not of administering relief, but of providing redress for the woman under the grievance sustained, or rather of forcing the two parties to com- bine in the maintenance of the child, and not as an indemnity to the parish, for a number of those cases were brought before the parish which were not cases of destitution, the parish being applied to by the woman to set her right as regards the contribution on the part of the man to the maintenance of the child. 3573- The ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 25 3573. The woman, therefore, under the administration of the former law, A//nd Power, Esq. had recourse to the parish to obtain either indemnity or redress ? — Yes. 3574. And the parish willingly assisted her in that application? — I should say 2 March 1838. that any application made by the woman under those circumstances would always he attended to, and very often, of course, the parish were active, for their own sake, in bringing those cases forward without any application from the woman. 3575- Would not the effect of such interference on the part of the parish be to lead the woman to feel that she was exposed to less inconvenience than she would have been, if the parish had not interfered, in having a bastard child ? — Certainly that would be the effect. 357G. Has not the removal of that interference been to make the women more cautious in their conduct } — I do not doubt that. 3577. If, therefore, in Lancashire and in Yorkshire it has been observed that that effect has not been produced, do you not think that the natural effect and ten- dency of the law ? — I do ; and I think that the circumstance of the Act of Par- liament continuing to the parish the power of [iroceeding against the putative father at quarter sessions has prevented the full effect which was likely to be produced upon the minds of the women from taking place ; not knowing, as you may reasonably expect, the difference between the former practice and that which was to take place under the Poor Law Amendment Act, they would feel secure that the same interference would take place on the part of the township as before; therefore there was hardly that kind of warning given to the women, as to the consequences of their imprudence, whicii otherwise would have been the case. 3578. Am I to understand you to mean, that you think that the effect of the clauses which enable the parish to apply to the court of quarter sessions for an order of application, is to lead the woman to suppose that she still has that means in her power ? — That is what I meant to express. 3579. You think, therefore, in that particular, those clauses have an injurious effect? — I think they have had a very unfortunate effect. 3.580. Do you think the removal of those clauses would tend materially to improve the present law ? — Though the clauses appear likely to become nearly inoperative, and the number of proceedings under them is diminishing throughout the district, and though the mischief which I am speaking of from them is gradually diminishing, yet I should say that it might be desirable to alter the law in that respect. 3.581. The clauses becoming gradually inoperative, any reliance that the women place upon their efficacy will be gradually removed ? — Yes. 3582. Do you think it desirable to remove that impression, being an injurious one, more rapidly than by the sort of disuse into which those classes are likely to "row ? — That is an extremely difficult and nice question; I do not feel prepared to answer it. 3583. Do you think the removal of those clauses would tend to induce the women to feel that they had no longer any reliance upon the parish to assist them against the man ? — Yes. 3584. AVould that feeling on the part of the women be likely to lead to greater caution in their conduct.? — Yes. 3585. You think, therefore, that the removal of those clauses would be desir- able? — Yes, I think it would be desirable, rather than to leave the evil to abate itself by gradual disuse ; I think it was an unfortunate arrangement in the first instance, and I would say without further hesitation, that I should think it desirable for those clauses to be removed. 3586. Do you think it would be desirable, in the administration of relief to women with bastard children, simply to treat those cases that may come before the boards of guardians as cases of destitution, and without reference to the birth of children ?^That is becoming practically the result of the present provisions of the law very fast, and I think it a desirable course to obtain. 3587. Would you propose to introduce any check upon the conduct of the man ? — I have heard suggestions which I am hardly prepared to state my own opinion upon, after much deliberation ; but the suggestions appear to me to be very reasonable, to the extent to which they go. Cases of peculiar hardship are sometimes found to arise, which were before dealt with by the interference of the parish, and which there is now no means of meeting; 1 allude to cases where decep- tion has been practised upon the female, and where, in fact, there has been possibly a breach of promise of marriage, or where actual seduction has been efiected by any 1^3- D means : 2f) MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Putxier, Esq. means ; many of those cases were before met by the interference of the parish, and similar cases still arise, though that interference is withdrawn ; it has been 3 March 1838. suggested that there ought to be, considering that that interference is now with- drawn, some means for the female to bring, either without expense altogether, or with very little expense, the case before a local tribunal for the purpose of receiving redress for grievances of that nature, but not to connect that in any degree whatever with the administration of relief, or even with any agency on the part of the parish ; it would amount to this, in fact, to give to those poor persons forms of civil redress which are now within the reach of parties who can afford to go into a court of justice under similar circumstances, to enable either the justices in petty sessions (or any other tribunal that might be locally existing) — that tribunal does already exist universally throughout the whole country, and probablv that would be the best tribunal to award in a case of this kind, on due inquiry, damages, with a summary means of process against the person of the man, in any case in which they thought proper to award it. 3588. VVould you confine it to cases of breach of promise of marriage? — Cases of breach of promise of marriage, and cases of seduction ; I feel it ditiicult to state it in any other way than that I would place those means within the reach of the poor which are now within the reach of the rich. I do not know whether it might be carried further with expediency. In the one case, the breach of promise of marriage, the woman would be the party suing ; in the other case, the case of seduction, the nearest relative sues for loss of services. 3589. Mr. Scrope.~\ Have you not known cases of great hardship, where poor girls have been seduced by their masters, for example, being large tradesmen and farmers, and in good circumstances, and where the farmer has taken advantage of the new law to refuse all support to the child or mother, she having no mode of obtaining relief at present but going into the workhouse with her child ? — Yes, I have heard such cases complained of. 3590. C/iainnan.'] Would you advise that this application to the tribunal should take place on the part of the woman, and without any interference on the part of the parish ?— Certainly ; if the access to the tribunal were given with very little expense, there would be no reason for the parish to interfere. 3,591. Mr. Scrope.] You would sive a better protection to the unmarried woman seduced, but without doing it through the means of the overseers or the guardians of the poor ? — Yes. 3592. Mr. JBamcs.] You think that the increase of this offence has been occa- sioned by the restraint upon the man being withdrawn ; and you do not think that the additional restraint upon the woman, from her having to support the child her- self, has been sufficient to counteract that effect ? — It has not been at present suffi- ciently developed to counteract that effect. 3593. But you think that some alteration in the law is necessary? — I think that I have not stated any strong opinion of the necessity for an alteration of the law ; I felt some hesitation when asked whether the present provisions should be altered with regard to that effect which I conceive they were calculated at first to produce upon the mind of the female, namely, that she had the same reliance upon the parish as heretofore ; but the state of the law has become better known to the females throughout the country, through the altered practice of the parishes ; but that very practice is not yet completely established. There is before their eyes a considerable number of affiliations yet enforced, and the practice of parishes going to the quarter sessions is still existing under the present process ; gradually, however, that delusive effect, if I may so call it, of the new bastardy provisions is dying away; and with respect to the other project which I mentioned, of giving a civil remedy to the woman before petty cessions, I merely mention it as a suggestion which has been made to me, and which appeared very vvorthy of atten- tion, and not as one upon which I am prepared to give a strong opinion. 3,594. You said that some disadvantage had arisen from the removal of the check upon the man ; are you of opinion that it would be desirable to impose any check, and in what manner? — I am so sensible of the great evils that did arise from attempts to impose a restraint upon the man, and which resulted in giving the woman a hold upon the man which she relied upon, that I feel very great doubt as to any mode being adopted of replacing that check which has been done away with. 359f)- ^i'"* Scrope.] Are you aware that in Ireland something like the very remedy which you have now suggested at present exists, and that girls can recover from the fathers of their bastards the wages of the time that they have lost, by pro- ceeding against them at petty sessions, and that it has been found to multiply per- jury ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 27 jury to a very great extent, and to Lie the cause of premature marriages, from the Alfred Power, Esq. woman holding out to the man the threat of resorting to this tribunal, unless mar- riao-e takes place? — I was not aware of that existing in Ireland; but I conceive, 2 i\larch 1838. that in order to produce the eftects which you have mentioned, it must go a great deal beyond the proposal which I have mentioned to the Committee; I should con- ceive that the practice in Ireland would perhaps extend to all cases of bastard children born ; I do not at ail contemplate that opportunity should be given, in all cases of bastard children born, for the women to come before the tribunal to swear the children ; it is proposed only to give to the poorer classes a civil remedy, which incases of the same description, that "is, breach of promise of marriage or seduction, is now open to them, if they could aftbrd 10 go into the courts, to provide for them a tribunal suitable to them, in point of expense, for the purpose of prosecuting those remedies, and this I think would not entail the bad injurious consequences which have been mentioned in the question. 359t). Mr. Baines.] Do not you perceive that the witness must be the woman herself, and that it would open the door to very extensive fraud and perjury ?— The proposition which has been suggested to me, and which I have laid before the Committee, does not involve the consequence of the woman being a witness in one of the cases, and that is the case of breach of promise of marriage ; she would not be admitted in courts of law as a witness ; and the proposition is limited to giving the same remedy as prevails in those courts. 3597. Is it your opinion that classification in the workhouses tends to diminish vice ?— -I have no doubt that the want of classification in the workhouses, as at present constituted, tends very much to produce vice in tlie inmates, particularly the younger part. 3598. And that, therefore, the present law is conducive to increased morality in the inmates of workhouses ?— I have no doubt of it; it will supply a more moral training and a more effectual education. 3.599. Do you happen to know what is the practice in Manchester with respect to relieving the Irish ?— I know it, not by minute personal inquiry, but by general report. 3600. Do you know, in point of fact, that persons having no settlement in Man- chester, but Irish weavers and other persons coming there, are relieved without having any legal claim upon the parish officers? — They have been in the habit of relieving the Irish to a very great extent in Manchester for many years pasc. 3601. Does that practice still prevail? — It does, with some slight alteration as to their rules of granting that relief; they have had a rule in existence of this nature, that after a residence for a certain number of years in Manchester, they will treat the Irish as they would persons settled with themselves, and the period has been altered from time to time; there was a great deal of relief, I know, last year given to cases of Irish people resident in Manchester. 3602. Could that be done under the new Poor Law ? — Yes, it could ; Irishmen, or even a foreigner, would receive relief in cases of destitution. 3603. But the rehef is given from week to week? — I have no doubt that relief is given to a great extent to the Irish population in the nature of what is called the allowance system, namely, to eke out the earnings of the poorer and worse class of weavers and other operatives by allowing money payments regularly from week to week, and a great amount in casual relief from time to time ; and I believe the Irish have been attracted to Manchester by that mode of relief, which prevails to a much greater extent than in the neighbouring towns. 183. D 2 APPENDIX. 2 3 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COINIMITTEE Appendix, No. i. X B O E rH ^ n 6 .S2 ^ ■^ Iz; x" o w o. 3 ID rt Ph 9- CIc -13 Ph <^ C o ■■a <1 g E i. § bo B O o as <: 5^. O w H CO 'T3 to 1 '■- CO C) hW I 1 J3 ■ts ^^ ^ ^ O ;- ^ 1-' li 1 o o >. ? & 3 J3 00 1 p - not al - not al «i« rt He) p-Cl ■B t^ a! ^ o t^ lO CJ l> lO (« "S 5 c fH "^ Tt- c ^ 1 "*- CJ •* CO •* r« HW ^<« HC* -^M .B -S 02 •o 'O t^ 1 - r^ -1- rt ^" CO e< at 00 ■^ t> iCl ■* <^ CO ■* - ■i- |i ^ o -i- ei Mw r^nt i-«5» ^2 •Q -- i^ Oi OS ■* O " x> M- ^ CO CO CO 1-1 t-i .- 1-4 >i CO CO CO (T" ■* o o ^ T^ Th CO c* r- •*• O) t— f c * r^^ H« r^C* ^*» Hl« -^IW J3 -3 - lO '- d ^ o ov 1 lO >o 00 lO ^0 "O 00 O ^ v; CO CO 0> o c-i CO CO c •"1- e» CO CO m O o -hM Ho» 1 -5 ^ t^ CO CO •+ CO -^4 ■+ c< Oi >-': CI i-t — s «; 00 ,1 -^ CO Th 'i- >o ■<*• >o t^ ■c ~ ^ - & r (ti -«M _K1 HM H« MW ^ %, "^ « Ti- CO CO o c -^ CO lO CO 00 ' >o «— « 1 a (N to »^ Cl ^ CO 1 ■* lO e» CO in •o c< VO c c l> -d . 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 ■ 1 ■ w u • ^ CO 1 1 1 1 1 1 • o 1 1 « , 1 1 1 rH & cS >» ^ ^l> .r; -c n ■H Th » 00 CO -^ g 05 -o lO cd rS 1^ S s 'i c »-4 'i- l> a c« CO U5 r » ■ o o 01 o B -i CO CO cd o C3 o c ■!^ 00 CI 1 . CO "5 _>, «o s o ^ a^r*) r« ^ -^ 1 ^ ^w H« Ha H«) o ^ o rtsl 1 o . ■^ a> >0 CO »n s ^-cco - ^ & CO s "5 'A .bj ^ W '^ ■t~> ^J ■^ r-^. >0< O tS « CO ■^ e. 4-* rtJ *J *-* o •«-> o c O o o a o c •^ E ^ 13 ^ •h|M H« H« ^ ^ fe-^" r*t HO* r^ -if 1- O . ^ ■a 00 S2 fe-' Oi ^ o lO -< '^ IH Is ^>-. c « 1 o o '^ CI >o 1 CO 'o r^ o c • 1- < -4* ^ -CTHM Kl* 1 I ■ «" "M j4 "^ o O r^ ^-a t- »-« 05 W lO CO 00 "« o t^ " " i-i •i n I-* F-t G p^ 11 O lO ■^ 1 t ' . B O O 1 1 1 • ■ ■ 1 ■ 1 C 1 • • I 1 1 1 1 1 • 1 ■ 1 1 1 o 1 f 1 I 1 t/j (» c o B W 1 * • o bi) c I 1 1 . '-3 I V3 1 ' 0) ■a « 3 0) £. E en B o o arke on and -2 E -a s C3 en ID ho CD 1-, o E herlan lamber ^ O Q. a (u oa s 3 C3 3 53 ?: ^ J O s 'I s B E S -a S3 E s E .2 1 ■2 S .2 Joshui Thom ci % .2 E o Richa Thom John . .2 1 c G O 1-5 G -^ >-> E o Edwa Thom 00 CO oo ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 29 Appendix, No. 2. Copy of a LETTER to Richard Halt, Esq., Assistant Poor Law Commissioner, from the Clerk to the Guardians of the Leicester Union. Dear Sir, Leicester, 28 February 1838. I SEND you herewith the Return you require respecting the earnings of the stone-breakers ; it will not furnish the inference anticipated. I have taken the names indiscriminately, only selecting those who worked for the longest period ; the majority of the men did not work over the whole period mentioned in the Return, but worked three or four or five days for one, two and three weeks, and then absented themselves for several days, or two or three weeks, and then came again ; and the selection I have made is from amongst the most regular ; but even they, you will see, did not continue to earn as much as they could ; the fact is, they worked at the stone yard by fits and starts, and when it pleased them ; and I think I am justified in saying that there was scarcely one amongst them who might not and could not have earned nearly double what he did ; upon an average that certainly was the case ; but there was cheating going on as well ; and some of the older and more constant workers robbed the stone heap, and so got their stones measured or weighed twice over ; and I think it very probable that some of those mentioned in the Return were parties to that sort of roguery. I will send you the other information by to-morrow's post, if possible. I remain, &c. (signed) H. W. Ri/ej/. Appendix, No. • Appendix, No. 3. AMOUNT expended for tlie Relief and Maintenance of the Poor in the Leicester Union Appendix, No. 3. during the years ended 25 March 1833, 1834 and 1835; showing also the Average Expenditure of those Three years, and the Amount expended for the same purpose during the year ended 25 Decem- ber 1837. PARISHES. Expended on Poor, Years ended 25 March -Vverage. Expended on Poor, 1833. 1834. 1835. \ ear ended 25 December 1837. All Saints - . - Loonard, St. - Margaret, St. Martin, St. - Mary, St. - Newark ... Nicholas, St. The Castle View - £. 1.376 255 6,408 2,3 '5 2,387 96 483 55 £. 1.347 220 5,831 2,097 2,617 126 517 77 £. 1,126 185 4,871 ",^99 2,205 108 362 60 £. 1,283 220 5,703 2,037 2,403 no 454 64 £. 1,5*54 171 6,619 Q,l8l 2,9"7 Si 495 38 Totals - - £. 13,375 12,832 10,616 12,274 , 14,066 1 March 1838. 183. JJ Appendix, Appendix, No. 4. 30 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE, &c. Appendix, No. 4. RETURN alluded to in Answer to Question 3310. Date of Declaration. Linton Eoyston Billernay Chelmsford Colchester - Dunmow Halstead 7- Maldon Orsett Rochford - SafFron Walden • Tendring Bishop- Stortford Hertford Ware 2 June 13 June 21 Sept. 24 July 30 Sept. 12 March 22 Oct. 26 Nov. 22 Sept. 19 Sept. 21 March 3 Nov. 11 March 3 June 31 March - i8:- Establishment. £, £. 373 184 232 1,214 810 1.177 1,240 346 216 955 791 595 1,268 469 421 Quarter Ended. 10,291 25 December 1835. 25 March 183G.' 25 December 1835. 25 March 183G. 25 March 1836. 25 December 1835. 25 March 1836. 25 December 1835. Appendix, No. 5. Appendix, No. 5. MANCHESTER WORKHOUSE. D I E T A U Y. B R E A K F A S T. DINNER. SUPPER. Pints 1 Pints Pint. Sunday li - - Rice, Milk and four oz. of Bread. 1| - - Milk Pottage and six oz. of Bread. 1 - - of Milk, and as much Oat Meal Pot- taee as they can take. Monday 1 --of Milk, and as much Out Meal Pottage as they can take. - - four oz. of cooked jNIeat, and four of Bread, with Potatoes. 1 - ditto - ditto - ditto. Tuesday 1 - ditto - ditto - dit'o Ij - - of Soup, and six oz. of Bread. I - ditto - ditto - ditto. Wednesday - 1 - ditto - ditto - ditto 1 - - of Potato Hash and four oz.of Bread. 1 - ditto - ditto - ditto. Thursday I - ditto - ditto - ditto ■ - same as Monday ' - ditto - ditto - ditto. Friday 1 - ditto - ditto - ditto - - same as Tuesday 1 - ditto - ditto • ditto. Saturday 1 - ditto - ditto - ditto - - same as Wednesday - 1 - ditto - ditto - ditto. All the old women above 60 vears of age have tea morning and evening, with four ounces of bread and butter, if they prefer it to the above breakfast and supper diet. N. 13. — Tlie sick have a better diet, under the regulation of the Medical Attendant. TENTH REPORT FROAr SELECT COMMITTEE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT; WITH ruE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, AND APPENDIX. Ordered, by The House of Commons, (o 6c Piinttrl, 2 March 1838. 183. ELEVENTH REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT; WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Ordered, hj The House of Commons, to be Printed, 6 March 1838. 191. [ ii ] Lun^, 2";° die Novembris, 1837, Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the Administration of tlie Relief of the Poor, under the Orders and Regulations issued bv the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act, Ordered, That the Committee consist of Twenty-one Members : Lord John Russell. Mr. Ward. Mr. Fazakerley. Lord Viscount Howick. Mr. Richard Walker. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Poulett Scrope. Mr. Villiers. Mr. Baines. Mr. Miles (Somerset). Mr. Boiling. Mr. Law Hodges. Mr. Lister. Mr. Chichester. Sir Thomas Fremantle. Mr. Slaney. Mr. Bameby. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Liddell. Mr. John Fielden. Mr. Estcourt (Devizes). Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers and Records. Ordered, That Five be the Quorum of the Committee. Jovis, 8" die Fthruaru, 1838. Ordered, That power be given to the Committee to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House. THE REPORT - p. ui MINUTES OF EVIDENCE - - p. l PLAN to face ^. 1 APPENDIX ----------- !>• 25 [ iii ] REPORT. THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the Administration of the Relief of the Poor under the Orders and Regulations issued hy the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor La\v Amendment Act ; and who were empowered to report the Minutes of Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House : — TT AVE taken some further Evidence, which they have agreed to report to The House. 6 March 1838. 191, [ iv 1 WITNESS. Alfred Poiver, Esq. p. i [ 1 ] MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Martis, 6* die Martii, 1838. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Baines. Mr. Barneby. Mr. Boiling. Mr. Chichester. Mr. Estcourt. Mr. Fielden. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Hodges. Mr. Liddell. Mr. Lister. Mr. Miles. Mr. Scrope. Mr. Slaney. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Walker. MR. FAZAKERLEY in the Chair. Alfred Power, Esq., again called in ; and further Examined. 3604. Chairman.} HAVE you any return to produce to the Committee? — This Alfred Power, Eb^. is a return, asked for by Mr. Fielden, of expenditure for the relief and mainte- nance of the poor in each of the following unions in the county of Essex, 6 March 1838. during each quarter of the year ended on the 27th of December 1837. The IVittiess delivered in the same (vide Appendix). 3605. Have you any other paper to produce? — I have made a comparison between certain parts of the establishment charges and the whole expense of relieving the poor, both before and after the introduction of the law in the Bradford Union ; I find that those charges, which I have compared together, will, under the former system, amount to about 11 j)er cent, upon the whole average expenditure of the union, and, under the new system, will amount to about 12 per cent. With respect to the Choriton Union, I have made the same comparison ; I before stated that 1 believed the same charges would amount to about the same sum per annum, both under the old and under the new law, and I find that to be about 16 per cent, upon the whole average expenditure. I have, in my former answer with respect to the establishment charges at Choriton, stated it at about 1,220/., but I have included there what I think it would be convenient to keep separate, and that is the expense of medical relief, and I have deducted this, and it brings it to 1,160/. instead ; I have taken out 60/., that will be about 16 per cent, upon the whole expenditure. With reference to the return relating to the eight unions in Essex, Hertfordshire andCambridgeshire,the total expenditure is, 65, 087/.; the total establishment charges, 12,845/., making about 20 per cent, upon the whole expenditure. I have deducted from those establishment charges the whole amount of medical relief included in them, and I have deducted also the whole amount of yearly instalments upon the debt of the workhouse, and the balance gives 8,144/., which will be about 12 f per cent, upon the whole expenditure ; com- paring the same sums with the population, I find that the whole establishment charges during the four quarters will be about "is. \od. upon the population for the last year; and abstracting from the whole establishment charges the medical relief and the instalments, the remainder will give about \ s. ^d. upon the population. 3606. Mr. Fielden-I The 15. 10^. per head upon the population includes the payments for medical relief, and for the interest of the money borrowed for building the workhouses ? — It does not include the interest ; it includes only the instalments, the twentieth part, which is paid every year ; I have not deducted the interest, because I consider it as a fair part of the establishment charges for the purpose of comparison. 191. A 3607. And 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Power, Esq. 3607. And without those two items of expenditure there is a net proportion of ■ 1 ^. ^d. per head upon the population ? — There is. 6 March 183S. 3608. The return made to the House of Lords of the 125 unions that you have spoken of, shows the total expenditure to be 8*. Sid. per head; the establishment charges appear to be, from the same return, 2*. 2|r/. per head, so that the esta- blishment charges amount to 25 per cent, upon the whole expenditure in the return made to the House of Lords. In the eight unions of which you have given an account, taking the quarter as being correct, the expenditure appears to be 95. 2 f t^ru, ut 'A. mffv!/ -V* ^IWf ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 3 with the several workhouses at Carlton, Great Ousebourne, Barwick and Great Alfred Puwer,E&q. Preston ; you will find the situation of those workhouses marked upon the plan. — 3617. Are the workhouses generally central, with reference to the parishes 6 March 1838. which are incorporated ? — They are, in many cases, central. *■ 3618. Is this Barwick workhouse marked ? — Yes. 3619. Are all the parishes marked yellow belonging to the Barwick union? — Yes. 3620. Some of those parishes not only appear to be at a distance from the Barwick workhouse, but, to a considerable extent, interfered with by other parishes and townships not comprised in the union ? — To a considerable extent ; and there are some townships not connected with any union intermixed with the tovvnshi|)3 that are so connected. 3(521. But there appears to be in the area round the Barwick workhouse not only a large blank space unoccupied by any union, but also a great portion of the Preston Union ? — Yes, there is. 3622. Do you not consider that, in the administration of the affairs of the poor connected with the union, a circumstance of great inconvenience ? — It would be almost an insuperable inconvenience under the Poor Law Amendment Act ; it is not so inconvenient to the townships united under Gilbert's Act, because the guardians do not as a body undertake the relief of the poor in the several townships ; they merely have the occupation of a common workhouse, and their meetings take place only monthly, for the purpose of settling the monthly accounts of the work- house, and paying their proportions. 3623. Some unions consist, apparently, of parishes very w-idely scattered, some of which parishes are at a great distance from the workhouse.^ — Some of those parishes are 13 miles distant by the road from the place of meeting. 3624. You say so great an inconvenience is not felt under the Gilbert unions, because the affairs of the separate townships are not conducted at the meetings of the board of guardians? — No ; the administration of relief in the several townships is not conducted at the board of guardians. 3625. Is the administration of relief left absolutely and independently to the government of the several parishes ? — It is, absolutely and independently. 3626. Is there not some control or appeal against their management? — I think the visitor has some power with respect to persons who should be ad- mitted to the workhouse. 3627. In wishing to divide this part of the country into unions under the Poor Law Amendment Act, did you find yourself interrupted and prevented by the existence of those Gilbert unions? — Certainly; and registration districts alone have as yet been formed, according to the red line round the several centres. 3628. Which red line describes, as you have already stated, the unions which you would propose to form, and wish to form, for the purpose of administering relief to the poor? — It does. 3629. It appears from this map, that the geographical arrangement under the unions, which you would propose to form, would be very much more convenient to all the parishes than the arrangement now existing under the Gilbert unions ? — Certainly, it would be more convenient. 3630. In any of those unions, are any of the parishes within them at any very great distance from the centre of the union ? — There might be some parishes at a distance where the union embraces a wild and moorland country ; for instance, the Ripon district extends to a considerable distance in one direction, but in the other unions I think the radius will seldom exceed six or seven miles. 3631. Generally speaking, you think the arrangement which you have made of these unions would be a convenient one? — I do, and particularly with refer- ence to the market town being the centre instead of an obscure vdlage, where now the workhouse is situated in each case. 3632. Can you state to the Committee any other reason, besides the geogra- phical convenience, which would induce you to substitute unions under the Poor Law Amendment Act for the Gilbert unions? — I think the administration of relief by the board of guardians through the whole district would be better than leaving the administration of relief to the separr.te townships. 3633. Is the practice various in the separate townships of the Gilbert unions? — The practice is, as you may expect, various in the various townships, when it is conducted by 40 different managements instead of one. 3O34. Have you made inquiries which satisfy you that the administration is bad 191. A 2 in , 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Potter, Esq. jn some of them? — I am not very well acquainted with the present state of admi- nistration in the several townships of those unions as it exists at the present 6 March 1838. point of time; before I visited the guardians and asked them to dissolve the union, I had had access to the returns which I have before mentioned of 1 834, and on an inspection of those returns, I found that at the time the returns were made there was great difference of management existing between the several townships of the union. 3635. Have you found any instances of bad administration in the townships? — Certainlv ; 1 sliould say that the principles of administration were not by any means sound in many of the parishes, so far as I can judge by those returns. 3636. In what particulars ? — There were questions asked in those queries of this nature, "Do you pay any rents for the able-bodied poor? Do you employ them as roundsmen ?" Those questions were frequently answered by townships in Gilbert unions in the affirmative. 3637. With reference to the payment of rents for the cottages of the able- bodied, and with reference to the system of employing labourers as roundsmen? — Yes, and in other ways upon the roads. 3638. Those practices were stated to exist in the Gilbert unions ? — Yes ; and with reference to employing the able-bodied upon the roads, one would expect to find it a practice in the Gilbert unions, because they are bound under the terms of that Act to find employment. 3639. Mr. Hodges.'] Can you give the amount of the rates in the Gilbert unions? — No, I cannot. 3640. Are they more or less, generally, than in the Poor Law unions? — They would be much less than in some Poor Law unions that are now existing in other parts of the country, as compared with the population. 3641. You have been asked, "Are you aware that any abuses exist in those unions ?" and you have stated amongst other abuses, that the people are employed upon the roads ; has not that taken place very largely in some of the Poor Law unions also ? — I am not very well acquainted with the working of the unions in the south of England up to the present time, but with reference to those in my former district, I believe no such thing has taken place as employment of persons paid out of the poor-rates upon the roads. 3642. Have you read Mr. Gulson's evidence ? — I have read those parts which have been printed, so as to be put into my hands. 3643. In the Gilbert unions in your district, you have stated it to be an abuse, that the men are employed on the roads; are you not aware that Mr. Gulson has stated that there is no doubt that in various parts of the district on which he gave evidence, there do exist opportunities of making great improvements in roads and in other public works ? — Very likely there may. 3644. Have you heard of any complaints from the rate-payers in the Gilbert unions ? — No, I iiave not. 3645. Have vou heard any complaints from the labouring poor in those unions? —No. 3646. CJiairman.'] You have stated that you found from returns contain- ino- answers to certain queries which vyere sent before the introduction of the Poor Law Amendment Act, that in those Gilbert unions the practice prevailed of paying rents for able-bodied men, and that able-bodied men were employed as roundsmen ?■ — Yes. 3647. Do you consider that to be consistent with good administration of relief to the poor ? — I do not. 3648. What do you consider to be the evil arising from employing able-bodied men as roundsmen? — I think it destroys the energy and industry of character in the labourer, that he should be forced upon the service of" a master who does not voluntarily employ him ; it is a great injury, again, to the employer, that he sliould be forced" to take into his service a man whom he does not want to employ; generally the persons who become roundsmen are not of the best character; and there is a great injustice to the third party, that is the independent labourer, who is already "in the service of an employer, and with satisfaction to both parties ; that man wiillosc the fair reward of his service, and the constant employment in that service to which he would naturally look by tlie necessity of employment being given to the pauper labourers of that township, who rely upon this insurance of em|>Ioyment at tlic period when they are out of work. 3649. Under the practice of employing roundsmen, are not all the rate-payers oblij^ed ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 5 obliged to contribute to the expense of employing those roundsmen even though Alfred Power, Esq. thev'do not require their labour?—! think that in those parts of the south of ■ En-dand where the system of roundsmen was established, it did generally involve b March ,B3>i. a contribution from the rate-payers towards the wages of those roundsmen ; but I find in some of the returns of the north, they say, " We take them as roundsmen, but we pay them the whole wages ourselves ;" but still I think that that js in itself extremely injurious. r v r^ /-« • 1 3650. You think that a vicious and bad administration of rebel ?— Certainly ; I should make this observation : this information was derived from the returns of 1834, and I should doubt whether the practice is now existing of employing roundsmen in that quarter. . 3651. Has not the practice of administering relief, both m the Gilbert unions and under local incorporations, and even under parishes not incorporated but under separate management, very much improved generally throughout England since the first publication of the report of the Commissioners ot Inquiry.-— Universally ; at least so far as I have observed in the districts to which 1 have been sent; both in the north and in the south, there was a great improvement in the management, so far as it could be judged of by the reduction of the rates. Ihe last year, on the average, was, I should say, and particularly in the counties that were the'most burthened, much lighter than the first year. 3652. Are you not aware that the parishes, in eftecting an improvement m the administration of relief to the poor, advance towards the principles of the Poor Law Amendment Act?— They frequently do, by voluntary efforts of their own. 3633.— When you sav that probably the system of employing men as rounds- men may be discontinued in Yorkshire, you believe that to be discontinued since the publication of the Report of the Commissioners of Inquiry?— I found the practice prevailing at the time of the return being made, which was in 1 834, at a time subsequent to the passing of the Act, and, therefore, the discontinuance must have taken place since. 3654. Do you know that the practice has been discontinued?— I do not know whether it has altogether, but I should think it not improbable that';it has. 3655. You say that the expense of Gilbert unions is probably less than in some of the unions under the Poor Law Amendment Act?— Yes, I have no doubt that it is, in ])roportion to the population. 3656. Do you mean by that to say that the system of administration under the Gilbert Act is, in itself, a less expensive system than that which is pro- vided by the Poor Law Amendment Act ?— No, I do not consider that at all ; I certainly think that the system under the Poor Law Amendment Act is better as regards expense ; that it tends to a more economical expenditure of the rates. '3657. In what sense then did you give the answer describing your opinion to be, that in some Gilbert unions the expense might be less than in some of the unions under the Poor Law Amendment Act? — It is less, comparing it with the population. The expenditure throughout the whole of the north, manufacturing and agri- cultural, whether of townships in Gilbert's unions or not in Gilbert's unions, is less, compared with the population, than in the south of England ; I do not think that there is any very material ditference between the expenditure of townships which are not 'in a Gilbert union in that quarter, and those which are in the Gilbert unions, so far as I have had an opportunity of knowing. 36,58. VV hat do you think would be the result of introducing the Poor Law Amendment Act into those parishes which are now incorporated under the Gilbert Act? — There is one point with regard to the Gilbert unions in which, by such an alteration, there would be a very great improvement, and that is the state of management of their workhouse establishments; in three out of four workhouses I should say there is no classification at all, and I should say that the establish- ments are not sufiicient in size, in any one case, for the population which have resort to it. 3659. Is there any regular or adequate audit of accounts under the Gilbert Act? — No ; the guardians audit their accounts themselves at the monthly meetings; they look at the treasurer's accounts, and they pay their proportion ; I believe that is all the audit. 3660. Do you consider that a sufficient and satisfactory audit of accounts ? — It is not an audit of any thing more than the account of the workhouse expenses. 3G61. Is there no audit of the separate parochial expenses? — There is not, beyond that which is given by magistrates, as in the case of parishes not under the Gilbert Act, 191. A 3 3662. Is 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Power, Esq. 3662. Is the audit with respect to the administration of reHef in the several parishes in the Gilbert unions, the same as that which existed in other ])arishes 6 March 1838. throughout England before the Poor Law Amendment Act, namely, by the magis- trates ? — Quite the same. 3663. Is that a searching and adequate examination of accounts ? — No, I con- ceive not ; 1 find a great many expenses which are clearly illegal in the accounts, and others of very doubtful legality, in my present district to a greater extent, perhaps, than in my former one. 3664. Are you of opinion, then, with reference to the proper audit of accounts, that the introduction of the Poor Law Amendment Act into this district would be an improvement ? — I do not doubt it. 3665. Do you know whether any arrangement is made in the workhouses under the Gilbert unions for the proper education of children? — In not any of the w^ork- houses to which I have been referring is there any proper provision made for the classification of the children, and I do not think that sufficient provision is made for their education ; in small workhouses the schoolmaster or schoolmistress is usually a pauper. 3666. Do you consider that the result of introducing the Poor Law Amendment Act into those parishes now incorporated under the Gilbert Act, would be attended with a diminution of expense ? — Yes, I conceive that it would. 3667. In what way do you believe that the expense w^ould be diminished? — Two of the Gilbert unions, in the West Riding, have already been dissolved, and those two are included w ith other townships now in the Settle Union. I have put in the quarterly abstract of the Settle Union, by which it appears, that even in the first quarter of last year there was considerable saving effected. The establishment expenses are now borne by a larger number of townships, and many of the town- ships which before had not resort to any workhouse, now have resort to it, which is a very important circumstance to the townships in that country, whose settled poor are frequently resident in the neighbouring manufacturing towns ; they are at the mercy either of the paupers, or the overseers of the township in which those paupers reside, if they have not some workhouse in which they can give relief if the parties apply. With reference to the townships now included in the Gilbert unions, I think that they have not the practice of giving relief in the workhouse, nor the means of sustaining the practice of giving relief in the workhouse, to the extent that they ought to have; I do not think the establishments are large enough. Here is one, the Carlton workhouse, capable of containing about 80 inmates, which belongs to 40 townships, with a population of nearly 50,000 ; seven of these are townships comprised within the borough of Leeds, and those townships, I think, must have a population of 30,000 on the whole, with no other workhouse than this distant workhouse at the village of Carlton. 3668. At what distance is it ?— Six or seven miles from Leeds. 3669. Is it the practice in the Gilbert unions to have recourse to the work- house ? — It is used by the Gilbert unions as a test of applications to some extent. 3670. If it is used as the test of applications, is not that an evasion, or a contravention of one of the provisions of the Gilbert Act? — It is so with respect to able-bodied persons ; but if I may be allowed to make this general observation, with reference to the workhouse test in the whole of that country, it is a more eflScient test as regards some classes of poor than others. I think it is not a sufficiently strong test as regards the more vicious and worse disposed of the population who might come into it; there is, however, a stronger spirit of independence existing among the labouring class in that country than in the south, and whatever the workhouse may be, or however conducted, the better disposed do not like the idea of going into it ; but I think the worse disposed are found to be satisfied with a residence in those establishments, and you sometimes find them staying there for a considerable time ; and you also find, that the townships feel very great difficulty and reluctance, in oftering the workhouse to that class of persons. 3671. From a notion that they would remain there for a long time? — Yes. 3672. And bring up their families there ? — Yes. 3673. And remain there generation after generation? — That they would remain there, and they are found to remain there, in many cases for a considerable time together, I think, in consequence of the establishment not being well regidated, and want of proper classification and employment for those persons. 3674. Mr. Allies.] In looking over the difierent parochial accounts of those parishes ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 7 parishes which were comprised in the Gilbert union, you have a double account; ^//rerf Power, Esq. first of all, the separate parochial accounts, and then the account of the Gilbert — workhouse ; have you not ?— I have not myself taken the averages of any of those 6 ISiarch 1838. townships which have been comprised in the Gilbert unions. 3675. Have you inspected the parochial books kept by the overseers of those parishes sufficiently to state to the Committee whether there were a great number of charges for non-resident paupers? — I have not examined the parish books^ but I have the most authentic sources of information, which I can produce to the Conti- mittee ; I have asked the relieving officers to give me, from the present state of their books, the number of persons, non-residents, receiving relief, as compared with the number of persons resident. 3676. Will you state from those accounts the sums paid to non-resident paupers and resident paupers in the parishes within the Union of Settle, 10 of the town- ships of which were formerly incorporated under the Gilbert Act?— I cannot state the sums, but I can state the number of cases receiving relief in the districts of the two relieving officers ; in the first district the number of cases belonging to the townships, and resident in the union, is 172; the number belonging to the townships, but not resident in the union, is 78 ; in the second district, 143 resi- dent, and 48 non-resident ; about one-third, therefore, are not resident within the union. 3677. In the case of the 78 and the 48, is there a sufficient parochial control to know whether those persons non-resident are proper subjects for relief? — There was not sufficient means for information existing in the fornier state of things, and I do not think the means of information now existing under the union is quite satisfactory ; there is an improvement, because now, one officer can visit on behalf of the whole 31 townships, and inquire after the cases, and that has, in fact, been done in the Settle Union ; a person has been employed to go to the distant places in which those parties were residing to obtain an account of the circumstances, and many cases were found out where they had been improperly receiving relief, from the want of information, but that visitation ought to be renewed from time to time, and 1 do not think that the arrangements at present are so satisfactory as I apprehend will be ultimately pro- duced when all the unions are organized in that country. I believe it is in the contemplation of the Poor Law Commissioners to have a system of accounting established between the several unions when fully organized, and to have the poor resident in any particular union visited, inspected and relieved by the relieving officer of that union in which they reside. 3678. That is not the case under the present orders and regulations of the Commissioners? — It is not. 3679. All that is required under the present order of the Commissioners is a check signed by a churchwarden ?^ — There is no rule of the Commissioners relating to what should be received ; the guardians, as at present going on, must get the best information they can. 3680. Chairman!] You think it would be desirable that an arrangement should be made, by which, by' interchange of accounts between the different unions, all paupers, to wliafever parish they belonged, should be relieved by the parish in which they reside? — I do ; there is a total absence of workhouse relief, if you do not adopt that course, unless the parties are removed to their own parish. 3681. Is there not also the absence of such inquiry as to enable the board of guardians to know whether the party really required relief or not ? — There is ; that is a most important feature. 3682. Would it not be better conducted if all unions were required to relieve the paupers within their limits, and in the instance of paupers belonging to other unions, account to those unions for the expense? — I think that would be a great improvement. 3683. Mr. Barnehy.'] Woidd not those unions be likely to give relief in cases where it was not necessary, under a knowledge that the parties did not belong to their own union ? — That arrangement, certainly, is not wholly satisfactory, on that account, but after much consideration, 1 think it is the best arrangement that could be come to with respect to the non-resident poor; the other alternative is that they should be removed to the unions to which they belong. 3684. In a manufacturing district, where it is important to keep persons resident within that district at the time when work is scarce, would they not be much more likely to give them relief in that district than to send them home, if it was 191. A 4 necessary 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Power, Esq. necessary to do so r — There would be, I think, far more confidence existing between the boards of guardians and the officers of those boards, than now exists between 6 Marcb 1838. the separate officers of the townships upon that point. I look at the arrangement which I have mentioned as merely a great improvement upon the present state of things. 3685. Mr. Jlliks.'] Rut you would not carry into execution those suggestions of yours till the whole county is thoroughly organized, and the workhouse system is in operation ? — It seems to be impossible to have such a system till the whole country is organized. 3686. Mr. Barnes.'] Do you know what has been the effect of the change of the law in the Settle Union ; have the rate-payers for the most part acquiesced in that change with pleasure and satisfaction, or have they demurred to it ? — There were two Gilbert unions existing, one consisting of seven, and the other of three townships ; the guardians of the one, consisting of seven townships, unanimously, on the first application, determined to dissolve that union ; the guardians of the smaller union, after about a fortnight's consideration, also dissolved theirs ; they had previously reduced their rates very much since their formation, which was in the larger union of very recent date ; but they are perfectly well satisfied, I believe the whole of those townships, with the new arrangement. 3687. You mean that not only the guardians, but the rate-payers, generally, feel that the alteration from the Gilbert union to the union under the Poor Law system, is an improvement? — I do not hear I0 the contrary, with respect to the rate-payers. I think I may speak with certainty with respect to the guardians, that they are satisfied on the subject ; I have no reason to doubt that the rate- payers are satisfied. 3688. With respect to persons who obtain relief, have you heard of any dissatis- faction on their part; is their situation, by the change of the law, altered for the better or the worse? — I have not heard of any dissatisfaction. 3689. In answer to one of the questions that was proposed to you, you said that the expense was pretty much the same in the Gilbert unions as under the state of things when relief was given in the common way; did you explain whether you meant to apply that observation to relief given in the new Poor Law unions, and under the new arrangement of the guardiaas, or to the old system of relieving ; do you mean in comparing the expense to the parish of the Gilbert unions witli the expense to the parish of relief under the old system, the result is pretty much the same ? — What I meant to state was, that leaving out of the question any interfer- ence on the part of the Commissioners, my impression is, that the townships not in the Gilbert union, in the same neighbourhood, will be, as regards expenditure, pretty much on a level with the townships that are in the Gilbert union ; and I will specify the reason why I think so, in particular ; the greater part of them are almost on the same footing as Gilbert unions, in this way, that some township has a workhouse, and a number of other townships engage, by paying a certain rent per annum, with that township, to send ail the poor they may have to send to their workhouse ; that is a voluntary arrangement made by a number of town- ships with one township, which is for practical purposes nearly the same thing as the Gilbert union ; there are a great number of those arrangements existing in Lan- cashire and the West Riding ; and they include, in some instances, a great number of townships ; these would be practically upon the same footing as the townships in Gilbert unions. 3690. When you institute the comparison, is your comparison applicable to the administration of relief under the old state of the law or under the new state of the law ; do you mean that there was not much diflerence when the law was adminis- tered before the passing of the Poor Law Amendment Act, or do you mean that it is the same now, when those places have come under the Poor Law Amendment Act ? — My comparison was of the townships under the Gilbert Act, with those tiiat were not under the Gilbert Act, and not interfered with by the Poor Law Commissioners. 3691. Do you know whether monthly entertainments are given at the monthly audits in the Gilbert unions of the West Riding of Yorkshire and the county of Lancashire? — I cannot say to what extent that obtains ; but I know that it does obtain, for I have witnessed it myself; I attended , meetings of the guardians in the several houses of four Gilbert unions, and in two of those there were enter- tainments on those occasions. 3692. Mondily ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 9 3G92. Monthly entertainments ? — I do not know that it was monthly, I only Alfred Power, Esq. saw it then ; it was a special meeting where nearly all the guardians attended in order to meet me, and there was a very ample provision made for an enter- ^ March 1838. tainment. 3693. Ckairma?i.] Out of what fund was that entertainment paid? — I know in one case it was paid by the guardians themselves, or out of their fines, and in the other case, I think, I may say confidently, that it was paid out of the poor-rates ; it appears to me to be almost a necessary result, from the situation in which those houses are ; there is no public house at which the guardians can obtain refresh- ment, and I do not think they are to be blamed altogether ; it arises from the circumstances. 3694. But you speak to the fact of those entertainments existing, and of their being occasionally paid out of the poor-rate ? — I feel pretty confident that that was the case witli respect to one ; with respect to the other, it was not. 3695. Mr. LiddelL] In such case, you would attach no blame to them if they paid for it out of their own pocket? — I do not thmk it is a proper thing to see the kitchen of the workhouse like the kitchen of a tavern. 3696. Mr. Babies.] You say that owing to the guardians having to travel a con- siderable distance, and there being no place of accommodation in the village, it was perfectly necessary that they should have refreshment, and that they should have it at the workhouse ? — Yes, if they spent a great part of the day there, it was. 3697. Will not the guardians under the new Poor Law have to travel a consi- derable distance, and stand in need of refreshment too, as they will be at a consi- derable distance from their homes ? — They will be in the market town almost invariably in our unions, and, generally speaking, the guardians meet on the market day. 3698. Chairman.'] In whatever place the board of guardians might meet, whether in a market town on the market day, or in a workhouse situated at a distance from the town, would the auditor under the Poor Law Amendment Act allow the expense of those entertainments as a regular charge ? — No. 3699. Mr. Barneby.] I understood you to state that it is your opinion, that persons should be relieved in the unions in which they resided instead of being removed to their own parishes ; if that is your opinion, is it not also your opinion that the law of settlement should be repealed, and that persons should be entitled to relief in parishes in which they reside? — The inconvenience is one which cer- tainly arises wholly from the present law of settlement. 3700. Is it your opinion that the law of settlement should be repealed? — I am hardly prepared to go that length. 3701. If the law of settlement should not be repealed, and parties should be entitled to re'ief in the way you suggest, does it not seem to you rather hard that parishes should be compelled to relieve persons at a distance from them, from whose labour they have not received any benefit? — I have often heard that consi- deration advanced, certainly ; and it appeared to me, with some reason ; the arrangement which I propose has reference to the existing state of the law. 3702. Mr. Hodges.] You have stated that you did not find much difference in the amount of the rates between some Gilbert unions and unions under the new Poor Law ; was this the case in Gilbert unions in which no workhouses existed, as well as in those in which workhouses existed ? — In the answer to which I imagine you refer, I was speaking of the four unions upon that paper ; and I stated that the expense would be less there than in some unions under the Poor Law Amendment Act, compared with the population. 3703. Will that occur in Gilbert unions where they have no workhouses? — They have workhouses in all the Gilbert unions with which I am acquainted. 3704. You say that the test of the workhouse is not applied in those unions unless in contravention of the Gilbert Act ? — It is not applied to the able-bodied, unless in contravention of the Act. 3705. Where it happens that that is not applied as a test, do not the guardians ]>rotect themselves from imposition by strict inquiry into the real circumstances of the paupers? — I am not sufficiently acquainted with the separate management as to know whether they do strictly inquire, but I should think that, with reference to those persons who are living at a distance, they would not have the opportunity or the means of so doing. 3706. By living at a distance, do you mean out-dwellers from the parish? — Yes, out-dwellers belonging to the parish, but residing elsewhere. 3707. What [irotection have you under the new law against imposition by that 191. B class 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Pffioer, Esq. class of persons ? — We have already, under the new law, much greater facility of inquirinff into those cases than there vvas under the old one ; our relieving officer 6 March 1838. ^,[\\ o-q to Leeds, or to Bradford, or to Halifax, for they are generally drawn to those laro-e towns, and he will find 30 or 40 cases in one place, all belonging to his own union ; those may belong to 20 different parishes in the same union, and could not, without great disproportionate expense, have been visited by the separate officers under the old law. 3708. Notwithstanding your opinion that the power of inquiring into the circum- stances of out-dwellers is less efficient in Gilbert unions than under the new law, yet, if the rates are not materially higher in some of the unions than in those under the new law, would it not appear that this inquiry into the circumstances of the paupers is efficient to real economy in the expenditure of the rates? — I do not think that any such inference can be drawn ; and there is this great misappre- hension with respect to a comparison of the rates with the population in the north of England and in the south : the resources of the labouring po[)ulation in that part of the country which I now superintend, are incomparably greater than the resources of the labouring population in the south ; the labouring population in the south of England are more nearly on a level with each other, their earnings ranging from Ss. or gs. up to 155. weekly ; that is not by any means the case with the operative class in Lancashire ; there is a proportion of the population liable to distress, but it is not the great bulk of the population who are in those circumstances ; the great mass receive, I should say, ample earnings, such as, toge- ther with the independent spirit which does exist there, keep them entirely without the pale of pauperism ; and no fair comparison can be made between the two separate countries, under the circumstances, as between population and expenditure. 3709. You have stated that where the new unions have taken place you have found no dissatisfaction expressed by those who receive relief; have you heard ot any complaints from those who have been denied relief, except in the workhouses ? — No, I have not ; I have no doubt that they might complain. 3710. Have you taken pains to learn whether any dissatisfacdon on this head exists ? — No, I have not ; I think that, very possibly, individuals who applied for relief, expecting out-door relief, and received an order for admission into the workhouse, vvhich would be done in many cases, would not be satisfied with the decision of the board of guardians. 3711. Would you not have thought it within the scope of your duty to have ascertained the condition of the parties denied relief; that is, whether they are able to get work, and whether they are living in a state of independence and comfort? — No, I do not consider thata part of my duty ; I consider it a part of the duty of the board of guardians and their officers. 3712. Chairman.'] If you were to undertake to trace individual cases, and to ascertain minutely the condition of the individuals, should you be able to perform your duties as Assistant Poor Law Commissioner? — Certainly not. 3713. Would not your whole time, and more than your whole time, be required, if you endeavoured to trace the circumstances of each individual case ? — Certainly it would. 3714. ]\Ir. Hodges.] You say that you do not consider it }our duty, but the duty of the guardians ; have you asked the guardians for informauon on that head ? — In witnessing the administration of relief by boards of guardians, I have fre- quently seen applications made by persons the state of whose earnings was exactly ascertained and produced in writing to the board of guardians, or obtained from the mouth of the individual himself, and certainly many a[)plications were made in that country by parties who ought never to have come upon the rates ; and I should say that I have seen worse instances in the north of pauperism of that description than I ever did in the south. 3715. Mr. Freshjield.] You spoke with more confidence of the satisfaction of the guardians than you did of the satisfaction of the rate-payers ; am I to under- stand from you that those who best understand the system are the most satisfied with it? — 1 do not wish it to be implied from my answer that the rate-payers are not satisfied ; but my information does not enable me to speak with the same confidence as regards them. 3716. As far as you have the means of judging, they are satisfied? — Yes; I think we should hear of it if they were not. 3717. Mr. Fickkn.] Was there a great opposition by the guardians of the Gilbert union to be placed under the Poor Law Amendment Act in the unions in the north? — Certainly, and to this extent: on my first applying to them to dissolve their ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) ii their unions, their consent being necessary under the Act, I got very few consents Alfred Power, "Esq. indeed on the part of individual guardians to that step. 3718. What was the nature of the objections which they raised to being put 6 March 1838. under the new Poor Law ? — I think, in the tirst place, they entertained a con- siderable distrust of the value of the amendments ; I think also that their unwiihngness to dissolve has been very much increased by the better management and a considerable reduction of rates which has been effected by them within the last three or four years ; I think that they have an increased confidence in their own management, and they do not know, and it is very difficult to explain to them, the value and advantages of the change proposed to be introduced. 3719. The roundsmen system which prevailed there, you say, has been done away with ? — 1 really cannot say whether it is altogether done away with or not, but 1 should think that it was ; it seems to have prevailed in many townships formerly. 3720. Has the payment of rents out of rates been done away with? — I should think it has, to some extent; in some townships it has been done away with, in others not ; but if I refer to the written returns, in which I have an account of that practice as now existing, I find that in a great majority of townships, in respect to which I have information of that kind, the practice is not done away with of paying rents. 3721. Chairman.'] Are you referring to townships under the Gilbert unions? — I do not know so much of the townships in Gilbert unions as of other townships. 3722. Li what townships do you say that the practice of paying rents still continues?— Principally in townships which have been brought under the boards of guardians ; and the returns I have are with reference to the practice then existinar. 3723. What is the date of those returns? — Very recent; they date from the commencement of the administration of relief in each union, where the relief has been assumed by the board of guardians ; in other cases they relate to a period shortly subsequent to the formation of the union. 3724. Mr. Fidden.'\ Have you met the guardians of the Gilbert unions fre- quently when they have raised objections to come under the new Poor Law ? — I have not met them frequently ; I asked them in such case to dissolve ; I placed before them a plan of the kind now produced, showing them the new arrangements that would be made, and giving all the explanation that it was in my power to give at the lime when I first went down to form unions in that country, and I put the question to those guardians at that time, because I wished to form them into unions instead of making them main districts under the Registration Act ; but the course I took, upon receiving their answers, was, to form them into main districts, and let any further attempt stand over; for I saw very little probability of producing a change in their minds, and I had not time to give for the necessary exertions that must have been made to induce them to dissolve, and 1 have not attempted it since. 3725. What answer did those who now object to come under the Poor Law give to your application? — The answer that I got from one was, that they had met a few days before, and determined on not dissolving; the answer in other cases was, that they would consider of it, and consult their several townships, which I think they did in many cases ; and it was impossible for me to attend to explain to the meetings of those townships the nature of the new arrangements ; therefore the question was tluown before parties who had not an opportunity of having the nature of the change explained to them ; but, on receiving their answers, I obtained very few consents, I think hardly any in the ('arlton Union ; I obtained a few in the Barwick Union, and a few at Preston, but at Great Ousebourne the answer was, that they had considered the matter before, and had made up their minds. 3726. How many unions under the Gilbert Act have you applied to, to come under the operation of the new law ? — I applied to all the seven which 1 have mentioned in my former answer ; two of them only dissolved. 3727. Do you know the result of the consultation with the different townships which they told you they proposed to have ? — No ; I only know it through the answer given by the guardians. 372S. Do you think that the guardians of the Gilbert union are of opinion that they are capable of administering the parochial affairs without the interference of the Poor Law Commissioners ? — 1 think that they are of that opinion ; but another Assistant-commissioner has visited those guardians since, and I do not know that it is by any means improbable that their consent will be obtained to dissolve, by renewed exertions* 191. B 2 3729. Are 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Power, Eser^Esq. that would be aggravated by mismanagement ; the difficulties which occurred trom ^— ^^ ^ -^ the former cause were not met properly, and mismanagemeut agaui raised tiie rates. 3744. But has any thing that has been done under the Poor Law Amendment Act in the south, at all placed the labouring poor in better circumstances as regards their income from wages'?— I think that it has, by the advance of wages ; and in other cases, where there is no advance in the rate of wages, there would be more constant employment; the labour too in the market has had an improved degree ot intrinsic value; that is another cause of an increase of resources; and a further increase is this, that the wages have not been misapplied to the same extent, for that misapplication of earnings under the old system, on the part of some portion of the labouring population, redounded very much to the prejudice of others who had not misapplied their earnings ; if the whole amount of employment is to be distributed among a certain class, and parties who can with an avemge amount ot employment maintain themselves during the whole year are mduced, by the assur- ance of constant employment by the parish, to misapply those earnmgs, they come upon the stock of employment, to the prejudice of the rest. 3745. But before you talk of misapplication of earnings, is it not necessary that yoia should show the Committee that their earnings were adequate for the supply of their wants ? — I have seen, I may almost say, innumerable instances where it appeared clearly that the party applying for relief had previously misapplied his earnings; it was extremely common to find artisan labourers earning from 18*. to 1 /. 1 ^ a week when they were in full employ, and coming upon the parish, like those who earned lower wages, in the winter time, when there was no work for them ; that I call a misapplication of earnings. 3746. You are now speaking of the practice that prevailed in the south ; you have then made inquiry into individual cases in a great number of instances ? — It would have been impossible for me to have done my duty, that is, to attend the boards of guardians in the administration of relief, without seeing innumerable instances. 3747. Mr. Miles.'] In your last answer do you refer to the allowance system per head ?— Yes, and to the money for lost time, for those are two distinct things ; the allowance system, and the money for lost time. 3748. Mr. Fietden.] Do you then take into account, when you estimate wages, what they received from the allowance system ; do you call the money that they received, wages, which was allowed them out of the rates ?— No, I do not. There is another cause of the increase of resources which I should like to mention, and that is the great saving of the rates, to the amount of 50 per cent, in many cases ; considering the parties from whom they formerly came, that has brought an immense d'eal of capital to the employment of labour which was not existing before, and it may be taken, that in the system which was pursued formerly, the land was in some places not fairly cultivated ; accordingly, a great portion of the amount saved would be employed in extra labour, to redeem the state of the land. 3749. In the unions in which you have been engaged in bringing into operation the Poor Law Amendment Act, do you know whether there is a sufficient amount of labour for the population ?— That is very difficult to ascertain, nor perhaps can it be expected that there is within each union sufficient employment for the vvhole population that may belong to it ; many of them are residing away and receiving employment elsewhere; but I do not think that experience up to this time has given "reason to suppose that there is a considerable surplus population in any part of the district I was formerly connected with, up to the present time. 3750. Are you aware whether, in any one of the eight unions of which you have given a return, there is a considerable number of labourers out of employment? — No, I am not aware that that is the case ; I have heard from Colonel Wade, whom I have had an opportunity of seeing, that during the late frost, in the Tendring Union, and, I rather think in the Dunmow also, the workhouse was nearly full, but they have not any new workhouse built ; in the Tendring Union they use several small houses for different classes of paupers; the one appro- priated to able-bodied is a very small establishment ; and they went on, after that workhouse was nearly full, with out-door labour; but the pressure in a very short time was removed, and they are now going on as usual. 3751. Supposing that one half of the labourers in the unions that you have formed were in full employment before the new Poor Law came into operation, and the same individuals are in employment now, but without any increase of igi B 3 wages, 14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Power, Esq. wages, how do you show that the resources of those individuals have been aug- mented ? — Supposing that to be the case, that the employment was the same, and a March 1838. jijg receipts were the same, that would not show an improvement in the case of those individuals. 3752. But supposing that those individuals also received head-money on account of their children, which went in augmentation of the wages that they had before, are not those poor persons amazingly worse off, in consequence of the operation of the new Poor Law ? — It is possible that their children may have been got into employment. 3753. Supposing those individuals were receiving the same wages before that they receive now, and the head-money is withdrawn, have those persons suffered in their circumstances from the operation of the new law ? — Supposing them to be receiving the same fruits of their labour, they have suffered ; if they receive the same amount of income in the shape of wages during the whole year which they did before, and a certain amount which they received before in addition to that income has been withdrawn, they must be worse off, there is no doubt, if their circumstances in other respects remain the same. 37,54. Have yon not told the Committee that there were a great number in full employment before the new law ? — I do not know whether I have told the Com- mittee so as yet, but there were, no doubt, farm labourers engaged the whole year round, who would be in full employment. 3755. And have you not attributed also the high rate in the relief of the poor to the low rate of wages? — I have said, that comparing the population of two distinct parts of the country together, the rates for the relief of the poor will, under any management, be greater to the population with the smaller resources, than it will to the population with the greater resources; when I speak of greater resources, I mean this : that there is some limit to the chance of a person falling upon the poor-rate ; there are many strata of the population in the north of England wlio do not incur the least risk of falling upon the poor-rate, but in an agricultural country, like the south of England, there will be a population of this nature; the resident country gentleman, the clergyman, a few large farmers, and the retail shopkeepers, and under that there will be nothing: but the dead level of an agricultural labourina; population. In town populations, the thing is very different ; there is there a superstructure upon the labouring class, which bears a far greater proportion to the whole than the superstructure upon the labouring class in the agricultural district; to carry this further, even in a provincial town in the agricultural districts, where you find a worse degree of pauperism than in any of the other townships in the union, as I did in many cases where I formed unions ; the proportion between the population and the poor-rates in the town was sometimes not half what it was in the country townships. 3756. You have attributed the high rates for the relief of the poor in the southern districts to the want of adequate wages? — I never said the want of adequate wages ; I have never used such an expression ; I say that the whole resources of the population are less in the southern districts than in the north. 3757. Did you not assign as a reason for the lower amount of rates levied for the relief of the poor in the Yorkshire districts, the people there having more ample earnings? — That is a very important circumstance, with reference to some portion of the operatives ; I consider that a very large number of the operatives there will have far greater incomes than many of the tradesmen in a provincial town. 37.58. Do you tliink that the high rates which prevail for the relief of the poor in the southern districts are the effects of a cause, and that that cause was the inadequacy of the wages of the labourers to maintain themselves ? — As far as my acquaintance goes with the state of the country unions, before the Poor Law Act was introduced, and the state of those unions since, I should say, that a vast deal of the expenditure which had been carried on, previously to the introduction of the Act, was not necessary, with reference to the inadequacy of the wages. 37.59. Then you think that the wages that the labourers received in the south were quite sufficient for the maintenance of themselves and families, without any allowance from the parish rates? — On the fullest examination which I was enabled to make on going into that district, I did not think that there was a surplus popu- lation existing, or an amount of population more than was necessary for the fair cultivation of the land; I think a false appearance of surplus had been produced, and ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 15 and certainly an artificial depreciation of wages. By a surplus population, I Al fred Power, E s^. mean having more persons upon a spot than, if you leave the employers and the labourers alone, will be able to reaUse sufficient earnings to maintain them. There ^'^'^ ' » 3 • might be particular individuals, under the state of things then existing, whose wages would not be fully adequate to maintain themselves and their families, and 1 should not doubt that there were. 37C0. Individuals that were in full employment ?— There would be, I should think, some extreme cases of individuals in full employment that would not be able to maintain themselves and their families. 3761. Have you any doubt that there were a great number of such individuals? — The worst cases are cases of men with extremely large families of young children, and from the rate of wages existing in some parts of the country, in such cases they would not be able to maintain themselves and their families upon their whole earnings. 3762. Then you think that those individuals, whatever the number was, were entitled to relief out of the parish fund ? — I think that they ought never to have had relief in money on that account ; I think that the practice of giving relief in money in such cases as those leads to inevitable mischief; it destroys the good feeling between the labourer and his employer, and is productive of great mischief in other respects ; a man in the circumstances you have been mentioning, must, in the course of nature, either fare worse, or make greater exertions than another man; such a man as that, if you leave him alone, and do not relieve him out of the rates, would be a more than ordinarily valuable servant ; and the employer has great reluctance to part with such a man ; but that employer would feel that in order to have his services, both he and his family must be fairly and properly maintained ; such a servant, 1 should say, without the operation of this bad system of relief, would never have been in troulale from the amount of his family. 3763. I did not put the question to you whether the relief was to be in money or labour, but whether this man was entitled to relief in some way ; do you think he was entitled to relief out of the workhouse?— I should say that relief out of the workhouse is particularly injurious as a practice in such cases, and that relief in the workhouse was less injurious ; and I think that as you would not in any case of individuals wish to deny relief altogether under the circumstances you have mentioned, it would be desirable that the workhouse relief at least should be afforded, as I think it may be afforded, without any pernicious consequences ; the other kind of relief cannot be afforded, it appears to me, without the most inju- rious consequences, as a practice. 3764. Chairman.] What do you mean by the other kind of relief ? — The out- door relief, making up the earnings of the family to a certain amount. 3765. An allowance in aid of wages? — An allowance in aid of wages. 3766. Mr. Fielden.'] Do not you think that it is a harsh interference, and which produces great suffering amongst those men, to subject them to the workhouse test ? — Compared with the former practice of giving out-door relief, it is not so satisfactory to the individual himself in its immediate result, but I do not think that it is harsh ; I cannot consent to call that mode of proceeding harsh which provides to a man, when he can no longer maintain himself and those depending upon him, a good roof over his head, a good lodging, a sufficient amount of food for himself and family, and clothing during the time that he may not be able to maintain himself. 3767. Would not such a man as you have been describing, if he had food, clothing and shelter olVered him, and sufficient amount of it, accept of the work- house at once, if it was not coupled with other things which make the workhouse objectionable to him ? — I think the better class of labourers would not accept that without great difficulty; under any circumstances, I should think that it would be under pressure ; but there are some of inferior character and spirit who certainly would accept it if it were not for the necessary restraint under which they are placed on entering such an establishment. 37G8. Are you of opinion, or do you know, that in many of the agricultural unions of the south, there were a great number of individual labourers who were working at wages that would not afford their families a comfortable subsistence ? — Under the vicious system which prevailed, and which proposed to supply the deficiency of wages by allowance from the poor-rates, J do not doubt that where that allowance was held by the hibourer to any considerable extent, he would be igi. B 4 receiving i6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Fuwer, Ei<\ 6 March 1 838. receiving a low rate of wages from the employer at that time ; but with respect to an industrious and good workman, I maintain that such a person will not con- tinue to receive from the employer, if you will let the two parties alone, an amount of wages inadequate to his support. 3769. Will you iissign a reason why you think so ?— It seems to me an imprac- ticable position ; I think the labourer cannot continue in the employment of a person who does not afford him sufficient means of maintaining himself, unless a third party steps in to supply the deficiency. 3770. Then, do you think that where the peremptory rule has been adopted, and relief out of the workhouse forbidden to the able-bodied, that those able-bodied labourers, who have come under that operation, are now receiving wages quite sufficient for their maintenance? — I do not feel any doubt ; they have the resort to the workhouse, if they have not sufficient to maintain themselves. 3771. You have spoken of the system being carried completely out; what did you mean by fully carrying out the system ? — If I used those words, it was, I think, in reference to establishing boards of guardians throughout the whole of the country, in my answers to the questions with regard to the relief of the non-resident poor. 3772. Had you no reference at that time to the carrying out of the workhouse system, and the total denial of relief to all able-bodied persons out of the work- house ? — No, I had no reference, when using those terms, to that. 3773. Do you, or do you not, recommend that the workhouse system should be universally adopted ? — I am not called upon officially to make any recommendation to that extent, nor shall be, in all probability. 3774. Do you consider the object of the Poor Law Amendment Act to be to introduce the workhouse system generally, and ultimately the peremptory rule for- bidding relief out of the workhouse to the able-bodied ? — I think we may gather from the terms of the Act, particularly from the 52d clause, that it was the inten- tion of the framers of the Act, that, at some period or other, out-door relief to the able-bodied should be put an end to. 3775. Are not all your etl'orts directed to the accomplishment of that end ? — My own individual efforts are directed chieOy to the forming of unions, to attend- ino- the meetings of the boards of guardians, and assisting them in carrying such regvdations into effect as the Poor Law Commissioners may think it proper to issue. 3776. What do you mean by the whole system being organized? — I mean by that, the whole country being placed under boards of guardians. 3777. Do you mean by that that the workhouse system should be established ? — It is not at all necessary, with reference to llie proposition that 1 was making, that the peremptory rule should be in existence any where ; it has no relation to the subject at all ; it is merely that a system of accounting should be established between the boards of guardians, of relief given to paupers belonging to other boards of guardians, whether those paupers are relieved in the workhouse or out of the workhouse. 3778. Chairman.'] And with reference also to the convenience of paupers, that they would not lie subject to orders of removal? — Yes, it is for the mutual con- venience of all parties that they should be relieved, and inspected and visited by persons on the spot. 3779. Mr. i'aVa'ew.] Do you think that those poor men, who were in full em- ployment at the same wages, before the new law, that they now receive, and if, before the new law those wages were inadequate for their maintenance, have been harshly used by being placed under the operation of the new law? — I do not admit the fact which is assumed in that question, that persons in full employment before the operation of the law, and receiving inadequate wages, are now in lull employment by employers, and at this time receiving inadequate wages ; I do not know of any such case. 3780. You do not know any unions in which wages were paid that wore not anijile for the maintenance of those industrious men before the Act?— I have said already, distinctly, in my answer, that where the allowance system prevailed there would be received from the employer an amount of wages inadequate to main- tain the family, but I deny that I am aware of any case, nor do I believe it to exist, or practicable, that there should be persons remaining in the employment of other persons upon an inadequate amount of wages to support them, assistance not being given from some other quarter. 3781. You ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (183S.) 17 3781. You think llie wages before tlie passing of the Poor Law were adequate yti/ml Pi,hf>-,Ei([. to the support of the labourers who were in full employment? — No, 1 do not say that ; I do not say that before the passing of the new law, in all cases men 6 March 1838. with an allowance from the parish were receiving at the same time adequate wages from their employers. 37S2. Chairman.^ Do you not know in point of fact, that the wages in many districts were so low as to l)e scarcely sufficient to maintain one uiember of the family ? — I know that very low wages obtained where the allowance system prevailed. 3783. Do you not know that the wages in some districts bore u small proportion to the allowance money ? — Yes. 3784. Mv. S/ai/ci/.'] Were not the wages lowest in those districts where the allowance system had prevailed the longest? — 1 believe that to have been the case. 378.5. Mr. Fielden.'] Do you know of labourers now who are in full employ- ment in those unions which you formed, that are not receiving adequate wages? — No, 1 do not ; I have no means of information. 3786. C/iai?'m(iii.] Have you been in those unions lately? — 1 have not. 3787. You have no means of knowing, one way or the other? — No. 3788. Mr. Fitklcn.^ Then you are altogether ignorant of what the wages were, either before or since ? — I am ignorant of the actual state of wages in any parti- cular case that you may mention. 3789. Chairman.~\ When you say that you are ignorant of what is the state of wages in unions that you have formed, is it not some time since you were in those / unions in Essex, Hertfordshire and Cambridgeshire ? — I have left them a year and a half. 37QQ. Have you, therefore, any personal opportunity of knowing what is the rate of wages in those districts? — No, I have not. 3791. Mr. Fiddeii.'\ You have spoken of the hand-loom weavers in the north, and you have given some account of their wages ; do you think that the wages of the hand-loom weavers are ade(juate to their maintenance ? — -1 should say that they were not, in many cases, at this point of time. 3792. Then how do you reconcile your former answer with that opinion, when you say that wages will naturally force themselves up if the en)i)ioyer and the employed are left to regulate them for themselves ?— I think that there is nothing inconsistent in what I have stated before with what I now state, namely, that tlie hand-loom weavers are receiving wages from the employers that are not sufficient to maintain themselves and their families ; I have said that that was the case with reference to agricultural labourers, who were receiving allowance from the poor- rates, and some of the hand-loom weavers are receiving allowance from the poor- rates, and that, together with the wages they receive from their employers, v\e must suppose is sufficient to maintain them, 3793. Chairman^ When you said that a labourer could not long continue to receive wages inadecjuate for the subsistence of himself and his family, did you not, on that supposition, exclude the intervention of the third party, namely, tiie parish ? — Certainly. 3794. In the case of the allowance system, as it prevailed in the agricultural counties, and now in the case of the hand-loom weavers, who receive parochial assistance, does not the third party now intervene and prevent the circumstances from being applicable to that case which you suppose? — Certainly, that is the whole difference. 379.5. Mr. Baines.~\ And in the case of the hand-loom weavers, is not there a fourth party ; is not the fourth party, frequently, the intervention of improved machinery which takes from the hand-loom weaver that compensation which he would otherwise have from his labour, and brings him into competition with the mechanical power, which necessarily reduces the value of his labour?' — Certainly; he suffers, naturally, a reduction of the wages which the employer can ailbrd to give him, and he would leave that employment if it would not maintain him, if the parish did not step in. 3796. Mr. Fiekki/.] If it is your opinion that wages would be raised to a scale adecjuate to the maintenance of those who are employed in any situation of life, if they were left entirely to the master and his servant, would it not be better to withdruw relief out of the poor-rate altogether ? — No; I think that a system of 191- c relief iS MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Puwd; Esq. relief which should be applicable to all cases, with as little injury as possible, is ■ desirable ; and I think that a kind of system which is not pernicious in its 6 March 1838. nature to any great extent has been devised. 37Q7. Is it your opinion, if all relief out of the parish fund was absolutely set aside, that the wages of the able-bodied poor would rise?— The tendency of out- door relief is on the whole against a rise of wages ; I can hardly feel sure whether that ot)servation will apply, in any degree, to the workhouse or not; but, certainly, if it does apply to the workhouse system, it is in a less degree ; we find this at all events as the result of our present experience, that the workhouse system may be safely used, and without interfering much between the employer and the labourer; we know that experimentally, so far as our present experience goes. APPENDIX. ON TflE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 10 X s CI •2 S 3 J3 =1 H 1— 1 P Q d ^ ■2 .3 W S o Ph s; a Oh bo . "* "O CO a w o C5 CO !>. •joop-nj o CO l-^ ^ l^ CO CO r^ CO f— < " •"• •"■ ^H o IM 1— ( rK !•- CO o s 3 o "3 '1 "♦l ^ ^ Tt< »o t^ t^ S « !^ r-l =3 CO o I_, ■* ^_^ s CO o S 'J' rH ^^"1 <^ t^ 1- C5 c t- J[^ 1 CO CO ot r~t * rH ■;n9m O J^ ■^ CO CO e^) ''ti § 00 ■^ CI o » CO o § c- « t^ •■5 ^ '^ a T* 1- 1— t ••0 i- o CO ^, — ' ,^ e^i o CO O "O o ^ CO S C<1 ■pnox 'tj o 0 r-l •lastn o o (M CI ei t-< ■^ -^ •-^ -il8!iqE»s3 4< "O CO ■o CO o O ^ ■* O CM -a c: co" •joop-jnf) «ti I— < o CM CO I— < s CO V5 rH o o o CO CO CO 03 e^ 1—! I-l -H r-T ^^ o 3 -H ■* m rH CO CO j-t CO ^ o ■joop-ai 'M. io" y »-l CO "' (M a '^ CO cf Medical Relief. H i I— 1 t^ s o s o cs rH CO S CO CO m -f C5 C3 CO -g WX •M co" 1— ( ci" CO ^. •o ei 1—1 cq" cq 03" ■jna tn (35 M '2. I—* ^ 03 -* *o s -M»n'i^'a <« ■O CO ^ CO (M S o CO "^ C3 O CI 1 CO o> M o CO CO o •Joop-jno W OJ '\ "i CO CO CO 05 CD u M r-t 1—1 rr »— ( c^" r~t ^ *o f-4 OS CO N rH -t^ CD 3 ■joop-ni H % CO ^ ■* « ^ CD 5 73 1 I 1 1 I ' 1 1 1 c 1 I o 1 1 « 1 S 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 < S O u K s o B2 H ;:3 -3 bo a 3 S ELEVENTH REPORT SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT ; WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Ordered, hj The House of Comniuiis, to be Printed, 6 March 1838. iqi. TWELFTH REPORT TKOM SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed, 7 March 1838. 192. [ ii ] Luna, 27* die Novembris, 1837. Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquii-e into the Admimstratiot» of the Rehef of the Poor, under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act. Ordered, That the Committee consist of Twenty-one Members: Lord John Russell. Mr. Ward. Mr. Fazakerley. Lord Viscount Howick. Mr. Richard Walker. Mr. Wakley, Mr. Poulett Scrope. Mr. Villiers. Mr. Baines. Mr. Miles (Somerset). Mr. Boiling. Mr. Law Hodges. Mr. Lister. Mr. Chichester. Sir Thomas Fremantle. Mr. Slaney. Mr. Barneby. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Liddell. Mr. John Fielden Mr. Estcourt (Devizes). Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers and Records. Ordered, That Five be the Quorum of the Committee. Jovis, 8' die Ftbruarii, 1838. Ordered, That power be given to the Committee to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House. THE REPORT - p. iii MINUTES OF EVIDENCE -------- p. 1 [ iii ] 11 E P O R T. THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the Administiation of the Relief of the Pooit under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act; and who were empowered to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House ; — ■ T TAV^E taken some further Evidence, which they have agreed to report to ■*■ -■• The House. 7 March 1 838. 192. 312 [ 'V ] WITNESS. Alfred Potver, Esq. - - - - - - j). i [ 1 ] MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Mercurii, T die Martii, 1838. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Barneby. Mr. Boiling. Mr. Chichester. Mr. Fielden. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Hodges. MR. FAZAKERLEY in the Chair Lord Howick. Mr. Liddell. Mr. Miles. Mr. Scrope. Mr. Wakiey. Alfred Power, Esq., again called in ; and further Examined. 3798. Mr. Fielden.~\ DOES not the tendency of the Poor Law Amendment Alfred Power, Esq. Act to raise wages depend upon whether there is or is not a sufficient quantity of employment for the labourers ? — When I am speaking of the tendency of the new 7 ^larch 1838. law to raise wages, it is in this way, that the former system of administering out- door relief to able-bodied, had a tendency, in various modes, to lower wages, which tendency does not, I think, exist in the system which is substituted, or about to be substituted for it, namely, the worlchouse system ; it is not productive of the evils which the former system was, in the depreciation of wages ; and that is the chief value of the substitution. With reference to the latter part of your question, as to whether there is sufficiency of employment in the district, there may or may not be a sufficiency of employment under the old system, and under the new ; but I do not think that the comparative value of the two systems is at all affected by that consideration. 3799. I wish you to confine your answer to what is the operation of the new law upon wages, whether it has or has not a tendency to raise wages ; and if that is your opinion, whether that does not depend upon whether there is or is ^ not a redundancy of labour in the market? — Comparing the effects of the new system, as we can judge by experience of it, with the effects of the old system, the tendency, I should say, would be, in removing the former evils, to raise wages. Then with reference to a supposed redundancy of the population in any part, I think the tendency of the present system would be, in any particular district, to disperse it, and to prevent in future its accumulation. 3800. But suppose in one parish there are 100 labourers, that 75 were employed before the new law, and 80 are employed under the new law, if those 20 continuing still unemployed have to seek for maintenance in some way, and cannot obtain it out of the workhouse, will it not necessarily follow, that they will accept of lower wages than are being paid to the 80 who are in employment, rather than go into the workhouse ? — You are supposing in your question, what I should describe as a surplus population of 20 persons in 100. 3801. 1 do not say surplus population, but 20 persons more than have employ- ment? — There may be, at some particular period of time, 20 persons out of 100 not having employment, but that is no sure index of a surplus population, nor do I know that there is any state of things there which either justifies complaint, or requires remedy. 3802. But take that to be the case, that there are 100 in a parish, and 20 cannot find work ; the only means they have of obtaining subsistence is to go into the workhouse; in that case, will not the immediate effect of the workhouse system be to reduce the wages of the 80 who are in employment ? — Your question .supposes that the 20 can look nowhere else for work, than in that particular parish ; that is not a practicable state of things ; it is not in nature ; it cannot long 192. A . endure 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE j^lfred I'orcer, Esq. endure that you should confine the parties to a particular locality for the purpose of maintaining themselves ; they are not so confined now ; they were to a certain 7 March 1838. extent by the old system, but now I conceive that the operation of the new system is to release them from that confiaement, and that instead of confining the labour- ers to a particular locality, the operation is to throw them upon the whole market of the kingdom. 3S03. Chairman.'] Do you allude to the change in the law of settlement ? — I allude more particularly to the substitution of the workhouse system for out- door relief, than the change in the law of settlement ; I conceive that the change in the law of settlement has not produced so great an effect in dispersing any undue accumulation, or preventing any undue accumulation of labour, as the sub- stitution of the workhouse system for out-door relief. 3804. j\lr. Hodges.] Is it not clear that any alteration in that respect effected by the change in the law of settlement must be 'for the most part prospective rather than immediate? — I would say that in my first operations in the agricultural districts, 1 heard it stated as a fact, and very much complained of, that there was now very little hiring of labourers for a year, and different causes would be assigned for that by different people, according to their respective views ; I do not know what effect has been produced in the district by the change of the law of settlement up to this time ; I do not know whether there is more hiring for the year than there used to be, or not. 3805. There may be more hiring for the year, but does it follow that there is more labour employed on account of the change? — No, it does not follow. 3806. Mr. Fiddeii.] Keeping to the question that I before put to you, I wish to know whether the 100 remaining together in the parish, the effect upon wages would not be as I have described, that is, a reduction of wages ? — Suppose that the 100 remain in the parish, there would be a certain degree of tendency, I apprehend, to a reduction of wages ; there would be an undue accumulation in the labour market. 3807. That is, there would be more men than were employed? — According to your supposition, there would be more men than could be employed. 3808. Then, suppose the 20 men were encouraged to go into other parishes, what would be the operation of the introduction of those men into the other parishes, unless in those other parishes it could be shown that labourers were wanted? — No doubt the supply of labour would be increased in those parts to which those persons went. 3809. Then, would not the tendency of their going be to reduce the wages of those men who were in employment before those strangers were introduced? — That would depend entirely upon the circumstances of the place to which those parties went; they might go to places where their presence would not reduce the resources of other parties employed there ; but if there was already in those places to which they went a perfect sufliciency of labour, if there was what you would call a right balance (though I do not think that such a thing can be fixed upon as a right balance between the supply of labour and the demand for it) — if there is any definite point which is right, and that was arrived at before, the presence of those persons upon that spot would not be advantageous. 3810. Wherever the men flee to find labour, do you not think that they will accept of labour at a less price than is generally paid, rather than go into work- houses such as are now established ? — It will depend upon the price that is paid for the labour. v 3811. If the price paid for the labour be such as those who are employed on it can barely live upon, will not the operation of the introduction of those men be to reduce the wages of such labour? — I do not know that it would, of necessity; unless you describe the whole state of circumstances, it is impossible fur me to answer either in the affirmative or the negative of that. Here is now an example of the case where wages are so low as you have described, that the parties having them can barely live upon them. Circumstances exist and cause that low state of wages which the presence of the new parties may remove; there may be a manufacturer with machinery standing still for want of hands ; there may be a capitalist, in other departments, not able to introduce his capital for want of labour ; and under those circumstances, the accession of new labourers would be an advantage to the labourers previously existing on the spot. It is impossible, therefore, to make a general answer to the question, without knowing the whole state of the circumstances. 381'i. But, ON TllF. POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 3 3812. But, confining yourself to the operation it has in the whole of the rural Alfred Po-der,Y.i<^. districts of the south, taking them now as they are under the new law, do you or do you not think that there is a sufficiency of labour for the labourers in those 7 ^'»f<^^ ^^38. districts? — I, of course, cannot speak of any part of the country so as to give information of value to the Committee, except of that with which I have been in connexion; looking to the whole area of that district in which I was formerly employed, and knowing what I did at the time I left it, and the subsequent operations, I should not come to the conclusion, by any means, that over the whole area of that district there was more labour than could be employed and paid throughout the year. 3813. The question is, not whether there are more labourers than can be em- ployed, but whether the labourers themselves can obtain employment ? — In my former answer, when I said that there were not more labourers than can be em- ployed and paid, I implied that the labourers could find employment to maintain themselves throughout the year. 3814. Do you wish your answer to imply that the labourers are able to obtain a sufficiency of employment? — I have a partial knowledge only of the state of the district, but it goes to this extent, that very few persons of the able-bodied class in that district are receiving relief for want of employment ; and relying upon that, and also upon the further circumstance that I do not know whether those who accept relief could not have maintained themselves throughout the year if they had applied their resources properly, I have no reason to believe that there are m.ore than could find employment to maintain them throughout the year. 381,5. ^h. Hodges :\ Of what counties are you speaking?— Part of Hertford- shire, the whole of Essex, and the whole of Cambridgeshire. 38 16. Mr. Fielden.'] Have you not been engaged in forming union's in Suffialk, in Norfolk and in Huntingdon?— No, I have not; I know to what the question refers ; here and there on the boundaries of my former district, there was one parish in Huntingdon ; there were eight or nine, perhaps, in Norfolk, and there might be one or two in Suffolk, but I do not think there were many parishes in Suffolk ; the number of parishes interfered with by me in those counties would not amount to above 12 or 14; therefore, I have not been engaged in forming unions in those counties. 38 17. Then, if I understand you rightly, you have doubts about there being any difficulty in obtaining employment by the labourers on the land? — I very much doubt whether tliere is any difficulty. 38 18. Supposing that the chairmen of two quarter sessions that have been held within the last fortnight have stated, in their charge in addressing the juries, that crime M'as amazingly on the increase ; that complaints were brought against farmers because they did not employ the men ; that the men were subject to severe distress, and that they had a right to complain ; would you, in that case, have any doubt that there were labourers in those parts who were without employ- ment ? — I should not presume any such thing from those statements, 3819. Would you have any doubt that what the chairmen of the quarter ses- sions said was true ? — I do not know the means of information which the chair- men of the quarter sessions might have had ; I cannot say whether the statements are true or not true, that you have alleged. 3820. Supposing that the labourers have a great difficulty in obtaining a suffi- ciency of labour, in that case is it your opinion that the new law is calculated to raise wages or to depress wages ? — I have given it as my opinion, that the new law is calculated to raise wages, as compared with the former state of the law ; and I have shown in my former answers, the modes in which I think that effect will be produced. 3821. But if you have shown it in your former answers, you can have no diffi- culty in re-slating it in very few words ; on the supposition that there is a difficulty in the labourer's obtaining employment?—! do not admit such a supposition, and with reference to my former district, I have every reason to believe the contrary to he the case.~{T/ie previous Question was 7cad.) "Supposing that the labourers have a great difficulty in obtaining a sufficiency of labour, in that case is it your opinion that the new law is calculated to raise wages or to depress waoes ?" The new law, abstractedly, is calculated, in my belief, as compared with the former system, and the effects of the former system, to raise waoes ; if you co ^9^- A 2 into 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE AU'red Poiver, Esq. into the question of political economy, as to whether the wages in any district will depend exactly upon the proportion of the supply and the demand, I confess 7 March 1S38. myself not sufficiently acquainted with the abstract principles of the science to make any answer; there may be disturbing circumstances. 3822. Do you think that provision being made by law to relieve people who are in want, arising from circumstances over which they have no control, is calcu- lated to keep up wages better than where no such provision exists? — 1 think that any provision of that kind for the relief of the labouring class cannot exist with- out some degree of interference between the labourers and the employer. 3823. And I understood you to state before, that where interference takes place between the employer and the labourer, that has an operation to keep down wages ? — The effect of an interference between employer and labourer may be to raise wages or it may be to depress wages ;• it depends upon the nature of the provision which so interferes. 2824. Is not it desirable, then, that there should be such a provision in every country, in order to keep up wages at a fair rate by Avhich the labourer can live ? — I think that a provision for the relief of the poor should not have for its direct object to interfere between the employer and the labourer, but to prevent any persons remaining in destitution ; that object being effectually provided for, the less the interference between the employer and tlie labourer, I should say, the better, 3825. Has the circumstance of Ireland, being without a poor law, and England having one, had any influence to keep up the price of labour in England higher than the price of labour has been kept up in Ireland? — I have heard many discussions and opinions advanced upon that subject, about the effect that was produced upon the population of both countries by the different states of provision in that respect, but I really cannot say that I have had an opportunity of consi- dering the subject, so as to give any answer to that question ; I think that it is a very intricate and complicated question ; I have seen the thing put both ways, and I cannot possibly come to any conclusion. I have never been called upon to con- sider it, with the view of coming to a conclusion. 3826. I find that in 18 counties the rates per head were lower before the new law than they are now ; in 18 counties which have come under its operation, that is, in England and Wales. The first 18 counties are Essex, Suffolk, Norfolk, Cambridge, Oxford, Wilts, Buckingham, Sussex, Northampton, Huntingdon, , Bedford, Berks, Kent, Dorset, Hereford, Lincoln, Hertford, Montgomery. In those 18 counties, in which, I believe, the new law has been carried into operation, and unions have been formed, the lowest rates in any of the counties is 6*. II a', per head on the population, and the highest is 9s. Ad. ; whereas, before the new law, the rates were \%s. Id. the highest, and 10*. 2^. the lowest, showing a reduc- tion in the rates in those counties, by the operation of the new law, of 42 per cent. ; what were the obstacles that stood in the way of bringing down the rates in the first 18 counties, under the old law, to the rates in the latter 18 counties, which were all lower in 1S34, before the law was passed, than in any one of the first 18 counties, the latter 18 counties being Caerraarthen, Flint, Northumberland, Angle- sea, Glamorgan, Pembroke, Durham, Cornwall, Derby, Caernarvon, Nottingham, Stafford, Cardigan, Monmouth, Chester, York (West Riding), Cumberland, Lan- caster, in which the rates per head were, in the county that was the highest, Gs. 8d., and in the county that was the lowest, 3s. 9d. ? — It is impossible for me to enu- merate the obstacles which would stand in the way of that, but I certainly should not have expected to find, troni the operation of the law, a greater reduction than has been actually effected in the first 18 counties which you named. 3827. Do you think that the rate of wages paid in the different counties had any tiling to do with causing the rates to be heavier in the first 18 counties than they were in the latter 18 counties? — I do not know what were the rates of wages in those several counties ; I do not know in what degree it may be imputable to that cause, or in what degree it may be imputable to different management, or in what degree it may be imputable to other circumstances. 3828. Supposing that the rates had been as low in the counties where they were the highest as they were in those counties where they were the lowest, would any necessity have existed for a change in the law ? — I think that very possibly a change in the law might have been desirable ; when you speak of the necessity ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (18S8.) 5 necessity of the change, I do not know the degree of abuse, the existence of vvliich Alfred Power, Es j would make a change necessary. 3829. Chairman ] Are you conversant with the management of the poor in 7 ^Jarch 1838. either of the 18 counties which have been named r — I am conversant with some of tlie counties named in both lists. 3830. Are you conversant generally with those 36 counties?— I know only those with which I have been connected. 3831. Then you cannot state, without a more intimate knowledge than you have of those counties, what were the particulars of good or bad management connected with them ? — No, I cannot, excepting of those that I was connected with. 3832. Mr. Fie/den.l One of those counties was Cambridge, in which the rates in the year ending the 25th of March 1834 were 13 5. 5d. per head on the popu- lation, and in the year ending the 25th of March 1837 they were reduced to 8 s. 9d. ; had the price paid for labour in the county of Cambridge any thing to do with the high rates in 1834 tiiat existed before the passing of the new law? — I , think, in many instances, the rate of wages might be connected with the amount of rate ; I think, in many cases, we should find wages paid out of the rates instead of by the employer ; that would make the amount of wages paid by the employer less, and the amount of rates higher, undoubtedly, so far as that goes. 3S33. Had the rate of wages been made what it ought to have been in the county of Cambridge, might not the rates have been reduced without the work- house test, and without the mac liirK'ry established for carrying out that test? — I do not know what is meant by the proposition " Had the wages of labour been made what they ought to have been ;" I do not know in what mode it would be suggested that that should be done, and therefore I cannot answer the question. 3834. Do you or do you not think that the rate of wages had any thing to do with the question ? — Yes. 383,5. Then what is it you think? — I have stated before, that I think the rate of wages and the amount of poor-rates had to do with each other, because I think very often, that the whole amount of what was given to a man in employment was made up partly of wages that he received from his employer, and partly of what lie received from the rates. 3836. In those 18 counties where the rates were so considerably lower, have not the inhabitants a right to complain of having this law forced upon them where the same abuse was known not to exist ? — 1 do not know that the same abuse was known not to exist in those 18 counties ; on the contrary, I know that certain abuses which prevailed in the south prevailed also to a certain extent in the north, and I have stilted so in a former part of my evidence, but not to the same extent. 3837. Have you not also stated, that where the rates were moderately low, it was a fair criterion by which to judge that there there was a good management? — I have stated the contrary ; I have stated that to be the case with reference to neighbouring managements under the same circumstances ; but I have stated the contrary, with respect to different districts in different parts of the country, most distinctly, and I feel that to be correct. 3838-9. Are you aware that Lord Althorp, when this Bill was under considera- tion, expressed a strong opinion of the doubts he had of the propriety of intro- ducing the new law into the manufacturing districts? — 1 have heard that stated ; I am not alluding to any statement that I saw at the time that such an expression was used by Lord Althorp, but I have heard it stated very recently ; as to the truth of the statement I cannot speak. In answer to some objections made by Sir Samuel Whalley, in the dis- cussion on the motion for leave to bring in the Bill, Lord Althorp said, and this is a quotation from his speech, " that when a parish is reallv well regulated, it need not entertain the slightest apprehension of interference on the part of the Commissioners." 'J7ie Committee Room uas cleai'ed. Motion made: (Lord Howii .A0~" That this questio question put. Ayes, 4. Noes, 1 Lord Howick. Mr. Field Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Miles. Mr. P. Scrope. J92. A3 en. The G MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMFITEE Alfred Power, Esq. Tfie Witness again called in. ~ ', s h 3840. Mr. Fielden.] You have been engaged in forming the Union of Chorl- 7 March i»38. ton-on-Medlock?— Yes. 3841. This is a letter addressed by the clerk of the union to the rate-payers; considerable pains were taken to circulate it; will you read that letter ?--[7'/(e same being handed to the Witness.'] — I am perfectly acquainted with the contents of that letter. 3842. Will you read it? [The Witness read the same, as follows P] Register Office, Town-hall, Chorlton-on-Medlock. Sir, — It has become my duty, as clerk to the guardians of Chorlton Union, to inform you that the administration of relief to the poor in the township of Chorlton-on-Medlock will, very shortly, devolve upon the board of guardians and such officers as they have appointed, or may hereafter appoint, to carry their directions into effect. The object of the present communication is to make known to you the exact nature of the change which is about to take place in the administration of relief to the poor, with the hope that, as much misapprehension is known to exist upon this subject, you will take advantage of the informa- tion now afforded to correct, by any convenient means within your power, any wrong impres- sions which may exist among your poorer neighbours as to the actual state of the law. The giiardians have been called upon to administer relief to the poor according to the provisions of the statute of Elizabeth, and all other statutes now existing for the relief of the poor. The guardians will therefore determine in every case of application for relief the nature and amount of the relief to be afforded, and the period for which it should continue. You will observe that the above power will be exercised, not by every individual guardian for his own township, but by the board of guardians for the whole union. A relieving officer, whose whole time will be devoted to visiting the poor and aftbrding relief, according to the directions of the board of guardians, will attend in the township once, at least, in every week, to dispense relief, to receive applications for relief, and to inquire into the wants and distresses of any persons who may apply. These applications, and all the circumstances of the parties applying, will be laid by the relieving officer before the board of guardians at the next weekly meeting for their decision, and, in the mean time, the relieving officer will, in any case of urgent necessity, have the power of affording immediate relief. If, in the absence of the relieving officer, any case of sickness, accident, or other urgent necessity should arise, application may be made to any of the overseers of the town- ship, who in such cases may, if they think proper, give relief in provisions, or pro- vide medical assistance, at the expense of the township, whether the person applying for relief be settled in the township or not. Any person not settled or usually residing in the township can apply, in circumstances of distress, to a justice of the peace, who can, if he thinks proper, direct an order to the overseers of the township to relieve such poor person in articles of absolute necessity, but not in money ; which order the overseers of the township would be bound to obey. Every justice of the peace has the power of giving a similar order for medical relief to any parishioner as well as out-parishioner, when any case of sudden and dangerous illness may require it. If any aged or infirm person wholly unable to work should be refused any relief by the guardians, otherwise than by admission to the workhouse, he or she can apply to two justices of the peace, who can, if they think proper, order the board of guardians to give relief to such poor person out of the work- house, which order the board of guardians would be bound to obey. With the exception of the cases above mentioned, the board of guardians have the entire and absolute authority of deciding whether any person should receive out-door relief, or should be relieved by admis- sion to any of the poor-houses or workhouses of the union. If any poor person seeking relief wishes to attend at the board of guardians and state his case himself, he can do so, and tlie board of guardians will hear his case ; but application must first be made to the reliev- ing officer before the day of meeting of the guardians. Further notice of the time when the guardians will begin to administer relief will be given to the overseers of the townsliip, and until the receipt of such notice, the overseers will continue to administer relief as heretofore. 3843. Was the clerk of the union authorized to circulate this by you ? — He was authorized to go to the expense of printing that, and circulating it, by the board of guardians of the union. 3S44. Is there a word said in this letter either of those who had the manage- ment of the affairs in Chorlton-on-Medlock coming under the control of the Commissioners at Somerset House ; is there a word said about the separation of the sexes, separation of parents, and children from their parents, in the union work- house ; or is there a word said of the practice that prevails in the southern districts of the kingdom where the new Poor Law has been carried into operation.^ — No, there is not one word in that paper upon the subject; the paper was intended to describe the actual state of the law, as it was to exist under the regulations which had been issued already by the Commissioners to the board of guardians. 3845. But ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 7 3S45. But would a rate-payer, reading this letter, a great many of which were Alfnd Powr, Es.q. circulated, have the least idea that the guardians would be brought under the control of the Poor Law Commissioners at Somerset House?— The letter has no 7 ^^^r^n 1B38. relation to that subject ; it is a perfect description of the authority of the board of guardians, as about to be exercised by them in the administration of relief. 3846. Is there not in this letter a statement made that the overseers of the poor can relieve the poor, and that the justices of the peace can order the overseers of the poor to relieve the poor? — Yes. 3847. Then those were both exceptions in favour of the poor, and with those exceptions, that the management of Chorlton Union should be absolutely under the direction of tlie board of guardians of the Chorlton Union ? — That is a per- fectly true description, as 1 believe, of the state of the law as at that time existing under the regulations of tl>e Commissioners. 384S. Is there no reason to believe that duplicity has been shown to the rate- payers of the Chorlton Union, by sending out such a circular as this, unaccom- panied by the orders of the Poor Law Commissioners ?— Not the slightest duplicity, or any ground for making that charge whatever ; for if you inspect the orders issued by the Poor Law Commissioners to the board of guardians, you will find the two statements, in every point, to correspond. 3849. But the orders of the Poor Law Commissioners did not accompany this letter which was sent out to the rate-payers?— They did not. 3850. Why did not the orders of the Poor Law Commissioners accompany this letter, in order that every rate-payer might be made acquainted with what was intended to be done ? — there was at the same time exertion made to circulate, for the information of the district, to other parties than the guardians, the actual orders issued to the board of guardians by the Commissioners, and that letter is merely a description of the actual effect and state of the law for the easy compre- hension of the inhabitants, and you will find, by making a comparison between the two, namely, the order of theCommissioners and the letter, that there is nothnig very essential left out of the letter, excepting the directions of the Commissioners to appoint officers, and regulating the duties of the officers ; but in all essential points that letter gives a full description of what is ordered by the Commissioners to the guardians, and also a description of the state of the law under the Poor Law Amendment Act, independently of the orders of the Commissioners. 3851. C/iain/iau.] Is that letter any thing more than a general notice of its being the intention of the Commissioners that the new law should be applied to the district ?— It is this, it is an explanation of the actual state of the law as intro- duced into the district at that time. 3852. In that general notice should you have thought it necessary to enter into every minute particular, either of the law, or of the regulations of the Commis- sioners ? — Certainly I did not. 3853. Is it possible in general notices of this kind, or would it not do away with the possibility of having general notices of this sort, if they were to contain every minute particular of the details of the law, or of the regulations which were after- wards to be carried into execution ? — It would not be practicable. 3854. Mr. Jlliles.] But you did think it necessary, when the law was about to be introduced into a new district, that all the parties, both rate-payers and rate- receivers, should know to whom, in cases of distress, the different applicants were to look for relief ?— I will explain to the Committee the circumstances which led to the framing of that letter ; it arose from the report of the previous Committee ; my attention was drawn to the passage upon the subject in that report, and I was desired to act upon it, and that letter was framed in accordance with that sugges- tion ; the sugoestion being to this effect, that the actual state of the law was not known, on its°first introduction, to the inhabitants of the district. 385,5. It was from that circumstance that you, as Assistant-cornmissioner, recommended to the board of guardians to disseminate, as vi^idely as possible, within that district, that particular paper ?— It was so. 3856. Mr. Fiddcn.'] There is this material distinction between what is con- tained in that letter, and what is contained in the orders of the Poor Law Commis- sioners : it is said, and it is repeated a great many times, in the instructions of the Commissioners, that whatever is done shall be subject, however, in all cases to the powers of the Poor Law Commissioners for the time being, and such orders, regulations, rules and directions as are herein contained, or as may hereafter be issued by the said Commissioners ; but any one reading the letter, unacquainted 192. A 4 W'lh 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Power, Esq. with the law, would at once infer that the guardians were absolutely to have the control of the administration of the law in that union, except in two cases, which 7 Mrtfch 1838. are named in favour of the poor ; one, that the overseers shall relieve, and another, that the magistrate shall direct the overseer to relieve; are you, or are you not, of opinion that a person reading that letter only, would not be led to this conclusion, that they were not to have the law administered in Lancashire under the orders, rules and regulations of the Commissioners, but under the absolute control of the board of guardians ? — I cannot conceive that there could be any portion of the popula- tion who would not be aware that the introduction of the management by the board of guardians was done under the authority of the Commissioners ; and it is perfectly well known, I believe, to the whole population of the country, that the Poor Law Commissioners have the power of directing the board of guardians as to the mode of administering relief to a certain extent. 3857. ChainnanP\ In this letter I observe this passage : "The guardians have been called upon to administer relief to the poor according to the provisions of the statute of Elizabeth, and all other statutes now existing for the relief of the poor;" do those words bear reference to this small book, which contains the orders and regulations under which the boards in the West Riding of Yorkshire and Lancashire had been called upon to administer relief? — Yes, they had distinct reference to the words of the relief regulation contained in the book in the 21st paragraph. 3858. There is this expression, " according to the provisions of the statute of Elizabeth, and all other statutes now existing for the relief of the poor ;" in saying, "all other statutes now existing for the relief of the poor," did you not allude to the Poor Law Amendment Act ? — It would include the Poor Law Amendment Act. 3859. Does the Poor Law Amendment Act contain provisions, giving Commis- sioners the power to issue orders to the boards of guardians ? — Certainly. 3860. If therefore in this letter it is said that the guardians were called upon to administer relief, "according to the provision of the statute of Elizabeth, and all other statutes now existing for the relief of the poor," the Poor Law Amendment Act being included amongst those statutes, would not that be giving notice to the people of that country that they were called upon to administer relief under the provisions of the Poor Law Amendment y\ct ? — Certainly. 3861. Mr. Fielden.] Could not a paragraph have been very easily inserted in this letter, stating that the board of guardians would be subject to the control of the Commissioners ? — I conceive that it was perfectly well known. 3862. If it was perfectly well known, why were such means taken to circulate this letter among the rate-payers? — To describe what the actual state of the law was in that country, where a great deal of mis-statement had been made as to the actual state of the law by individuals who had exerted themselves with a view to create a violent resistance to it, and in some places with success. 3863. Then you tell the Committee that this does describe the state of the law ?— I do. 3864. Mr. Miles.} Had there been a meeting of the guardians before that letter was circulated ? - Many previous meetins^s. 3865. Were not the guardians perfectly well aware under whose directions they were going to administer reliel ? — Certainly. 3866. Is it not the case, that whenever an Assistant-commissioner goes to a new district, he fully explains to them the law ? — Yes. 38(17. Did you do so? — I had had many conversations with the board of guardians previously to the issue of the regulations of the Commissioners, and I, of course, have conferred with them since the' issuing of those regulations, and have made every explanation in my power. 3868. In this case, previously to the issue of that letter to the overseers, church- wardens, and to the rate-payers and rate-receivers generally, were the guardians fully aware under whose regulations they were to administer the relief? — They had received the actual regulations of the Commissioners before the circulation of that paper ; official copies of the orders go down to a great number of parties besides the guardians ; there are copies sent to the clerk of the peace, the clerk of the petty sessions divisions in which any of the townships may be situated, and each of the guardians has a distinct official copy, and the churchwardens and overseers of every township have a copy; the actual orders arc well known; and in that district further pains were taken to circulate the actual orders issued, by distributing ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) g distributing books of the form produced amongst rate-payers, or any parties wlio Aljred Poucr, Esq. chose to ask for them. 3869. Chairman.'] Therefore, in that particular instance, unusual means were 7 March 1838. taken to circulate the regulations of the Commissioners among the rate- payers? — Yes. 3870. Greater than had been taken in other districts under your management? — Yes, it was so ; there was a similar book circulated in the agricultural districts on the issue of the regulations; but that letter is an additional e.\ertion. 3871. Mr. Fielden.'] Have you not said that this letter was circulated for the purpose of removing erroneous impressions that prevailed as to the law ? — \ es, the letter itself states that. 387-2. Is this paragraph, then, true, or is it not true, " with the exception of the cases above mentioned," that is, the cases in favour of relief to be given by overseers or justices of the peace, " the board of guardians have the entire and absolute authority of deciding whether any person should receive out-door relief, or should be relieved by admission into any of the poor-houses of the union ? " — Quite true. 3873. Chairmati.] That is the state of the law existing in the district, under the regulations of the Commissioners? — It is. 3874. The Poor Law Amendment Act gives certain powers to the Commis- sioners to issue regulations ; and the regulations issued by the Commissioners to that district enable the guardians to exercise that authority ? — Yes. 3875. Mr. Fielden.^ Does not the book state that the guardians are to be always subject to the rules and regulations of the Commissioners ? —That circum- stance would not qualify the discretion which is there mentioned in any respect ; a further rule from the Commissioners must issue, signed by their hands and seals, to set aside the discretion which is described in the letter as existing at that time in the board of guardians ; the Commissioners have no power to decide upon any case that may be referred to them ; the guardians have the actual uncon- trolled power of deciding upon any individual case as to the amount and mode of relief. 3876. Absolute until a new law be made by the Commissioners? — Certainly, and, without any other regulations from the Con)missioners, the guardians have an absolute and uncontrolled authority. 3877. But have the Commissioners a power to take from the board of guardians in the Chorlton Union that absolute authority which you say they now possess ? — They have undoubtedly a power under the Poor Law Amendment Act to issue regulations which would restrain that uncontrolled discretion of the guardians. 3878. But there is no statement of that fact contained in this letter ? — There is not. 3879. Then is not the letter calculated to make a wrong impression upon the minds of the rate-payers in that union? — I think not. 3880. Cliairvian.~\ Is one of your reasons for thinking that it was not, that at the same time there was among the rate-payers a large circulation of the book containing the expressions just referred to?— That is one reason ; another is, that it is my belief that the whole population of the district are well aware that the Commissioners have the power of controlling the discretion of the guardians. 3881. Lord //oM'z'cA-.] Is not the popular belief that the Commissioners have more power than they actually possess, rather than less power r — I believe it is so, and, certainly, as regards the exercise of the powers of the Commissioners, the popular belief is that they have restrained the discretion of the guardians to a far greater extent than they actually have done, or than they have the power to do. 3882. Mr. JVakley.'] In what respects is the popular belief erroneous with regard to the powers of the Commissioners? — On the point that all outdoor relief has been prevented, and, further than that, that the Commissioners have the power, and have exercised it, of denying relief in toto to any individuals, or any particular classes of individuals, which they have not. 3883. Mr. Miles.] In instances in which the rule prohibiting out-door relief has been in operation under the orders of the Commissioners in cases of tempo- raiy emergency — supposing in a manufacturing district, that two or three firms should have broken, and a vast number of hands be thrown out of employment, have not the boards of guardians themselves a power to meet those cases of temporary emergency by relieving as they please for 14 days, upon reporting iq2. B io 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Poller, Esq. to the Commissioners? — I believe the power of the boards of guardians is to this effect ; there is an alternative power to the board of guardians in cases of emer- 7 March 1838. gency, either to give out-door relief generally, and within 14 days report to the Commissioners, or they may relieve in provisions, without the necessity of making such report. 3884. So that in cases such as I have mentioned, it would be in the power of the guardians, upon reporting, actually to do away with that order for the time, forbidding all relief to the able-bodied except in the workhouse? — Incases of emergency. 3885. Do you think that it is generally understood, that the guardians have that power throughout England ? — I do not think it is very generally known. 3886. Do not you think it necessary that it should be thoroughly understood, that such a power resides, in cases of emergency, in the boards of guardians ? — I do, particularly in unions where the peremptory rule forbidding out-door relief to the able-bodied has been issued. 3887. Mr. IVakley.] I wish to direct your attention particularly to the first paragraph of this letter, which runs thus : " It has become my duty, as clerk to the guardians of the Chorlton Union, to inform you that the administration of relief to the poor in the township of Chorlton-on-Medlock will very shortly devolve upon the board of guardians, and such officers as they have appointed, or may hereafter appoint, to carry their directions into effect." And the next para- graph stands thus : "The object of the present communication is, to make known to you the exact nature of the change which is about to take place in the admi- nistration of relief to the poor, with the hope, that, as much misapprehension is known to exist upon this subject, j'ou will take advantage of the information now afforded, to correct, by any convenient means within your power, any wrong im- pressions which may exist among your poorer neighbours, as to the actual state of the law." Looking at those paragraphs, is it not a distinct announcement as to the manner in which the law is to be administered in future in that union? — I should say that the terms did not go further than stating the mode in which relief would have to be administered under the change which had or was about to take place. 3888. " The exact nature of the change which is about to take place in the admi- nistration of relief to the poor?" — Yes, die change about to take place; and that has reference to the previous statement in the first paragraph, that the adminis- tration of relief to the poor, will very shortly devolve upon the board of guardians ; it therefore has reference to the immediate change. 3889. To the immediate change, and to the future operation of the law? — It would have been very wrong indeed in me to have suggested words which should hereafter preclude any further steps of the present Poor Law Commissioners, or any future Poor Law Commissioners, to issue further regulations ; I framed this document myself, and therefore I am entirely responsible for the expressions, and certainly it was my intention to avoid, and I think I have avoided, using words capable of any such construction. 3890. Is it not with reference to the future? — Not to the whole future; it is in reference to the change immediately about to take place, which had already, in fact, taken place, by the issue of the regulations of the Commissioners. 3891. Have you in this letter, in any one paragraph, in any one line, or in any one word of it, intimated to the rate-payers that any future change would be made with reference to the rules of the Commissioners or the state of the law? — I should have been very wrong to do that, because it is not for me to decide or anticipate that any future change will be made. 3892. Look, for example, to the fourth paragraph ; do you not state in the fourth paragraph, " You will observe that the above power will be exercised, not by every individual guardian for his own township, but by the board of guardians for the whole union ;" was not that a correct statement witli reference not only to the then state of the law, but with reference also to the future operation of the law, unless the law be changed ? — It is a statement explaining a distinct provision of the Act of Parliament that no individual guardian shall act, but that the whole board shall act, under whatever circumstances. 3893. Is it not with reference to the future ? — I could not exclude the future altogether, nor could I have explained that provision without using the same word in the future tense. 3894. Then, in point of fact, when you framed this letter, did you mean it to apply only to the particular moment when the immediate change was made? — It ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) ii It was intended to allude, and does allude, to the change which had been made Alfred Power, Esq. at that time, or had been determined upon. 3895. But did not the intimation in the fourth paragraph imply that there 7 March 1838. was a condition with reference to the powers of the boards of guardians which was to be exercised for the future, and not for that particular moment ? — The letter has reference to the administration of the board of guardians under the regulations at that point of time issued by the Poor Law Commissioners, and could not have reference to any thing further than that ; I did not mean that it should be construed into any thing further tlian the administration of the law under the regulations which hud been actually issued. 3896. Did that letter, at the time you wrote it, convey, or did you intend it should convey, to the readers of the letter, your interpretation of what was the then state of the law, and what would be the future power which the guardians could exercise in that union ?^ — ^My intention was, to oive parties a knowledge of what the actual state of the law then v\as, without reference to any further reo-u- lation or interference which might take place on the part of the Poor Law Commissioners. ' 3897. Then, when you framed the last paragraph but two, beginning with the words " With the exception," you really intended to imply by it that the board of guardians had then the power of deciding entirely and absolutely whether any .person should receive out-door relief ; but you did not mean to intimate to them that, for any future period, the same power would continue to be exercised by the board of guardians? — Certainly, I meant to imply that they had then that power, without reference to whether it would be continued or not continued, upon which point I had no knowledge myself; I find the word " will" in this book : " With the exception of the cases above mentioned, the board of guardians will have the entire and absolute authority of deciding." I think, in the copy before you, that word is not inserted ; that will perfectly show that I cautiously abstained from giving that impression ; for I recollect that I had that word " will " in that remarkable passage, and it was erased subsequently ; though it appears in the first copy it was erased in the letter that was actually issued, because it was thought that that impression that you are speaking of might improperly be fiven. 3898. So that the introduction of the word " will" made the sentence operate with reference to the future just as the other parts of the letter do r — It there ap' peared calculated to produce an improper impression, and I could do without it in that case; and I think, if you look at any other case, I could not do without the word " will," but there it was altered on purpose to remove that impression. 389Q. You can soon divide time into past, present and future ; when you wrote this letter, how soon did you expect that the Commissioners would interfere and exercise their authority over the board of guardians, and prevent the administra- tion of out-door relief to the families of able-bodied labourers? — I have no knowledge of that at this point of time, still less could I have at the- point of time when this letter was framed. 3900. When it was announced to the board of guardians that they had an entire and absolute power of deciding whether any person should receive out-door relief, the very next week the Commissioners might interfere and prevent their having such an authority ? — -The Commissioners might, at any point of time, issue a regulation restraining the board of guardians to a certain extent. 3901. Is there in this letter any intimation to the public or the board of guardians that the Commissioners have that power, that is, have the power to take from the board of guardians the exercise of the authority announced in this letter?— There is no such intimation in the letter, but it was a fact that was per- fectly well known to every mdividual of the population ; and, as I said before, I believe that a stronger impression was entertained of the power of the Com- missioners to interfere, and of the actual exercise of that power, than was correct. 3902. Then, if the people were so well informed, why did you circulate this letter ?— They were not informed of the mode in which the Commissioners had exercised that power, and I wished to give them that information. 3903. You have supposed that they had very accurate information ? — Not very accurate, for it goes beyond the truth. 3904. Do you not think it is convenient to assume that fact, that they were ignorant in some respects with regard to the administration of relief, but in others that their information was most accurate?— I did not say that their information 192. B 2 was 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Poaer, Esq. vvas accurate in that point; I said that their impression of the power of the Com- missioners M'ent beyond the actual fact, and that they were in ignorance as to the 7 March 18,38. mode in which that power was exercised, or proposed to be exercised. 3905. To what extent was their ignorance, with regard to the powers of the Commissioners ? — I stated in answer to the same question, that the impression was that the power of the Commissioners was to deny relief altogether, or to make the board of guardians deny relief altogether, to persons applying for it ; there is no ' such power existing in them ; another impression was that they had the power a:of interfering with individual cases, which is not correct. "3906. Have not the Commissioners the power of preventing out-door relief to the families of the able-bodied ? — Out-door relief to able-bodied persons they * have the power of preventing, but not of denying relief in toto with respect to any class of individuals ; their power is as to the mode of giving relief. s^fr 3907. Mr. Scrope.'] Must not every one who had read the Act of Parliament have been aware that the Commissioners have the power of altering, from time to time, any regulations which they may have issued? — Certainly. ^i;i"i^yo8. And there could be no reasonable ground, therefore, for supposing that they were never to exercise that power, and that the rules and the regulations . which they had once issued should be permanent? — Certainly not. ."'niri3po9. Mr. LiddelL] Do you think that it would not be advisable to leave to '- the discretion of boards of guardians the power of administering out-door relief, ^ without being interfered with or restricted by the Commissioners ? — I think that that could not be done with safety with respect to all boards of guardians. 3910. Do j'ou think that boards of guardians, acting on behalf of the interests '' of the union of which they are the guardians, may not have the means of acquiring sutficient information to enable them to be better judges of such cases, where out- door relief may be given, than the Commissioners? — I am myself convinced of the propriety of substituting the workhouse system, as relief to the able-bodied, for the system of out-door relief. 3911. Without questioning the propriety of that conviction, I may remind you that there is no rule without its exception, and, admitting, for the sake of •^ argument, that the rule is a sound one, will you not admit that cases of exception ■ may frequently occur, in which it would be desirable to substitute out-door relief ' for the workhouse test? — I do not think those cases of exception, if such should exist ; I do not particularly know to what kind of cases you are alluding now, but I do not think that such cases of exception as may exist would be sufficient to overbalance the advantage of an uniform rule. 3912. Admitting that the rule should be uniform, yet that no rule whatever can be uniform without occasional exceptions, I wish to know why you think that the guardians may not be suHicient and competent judges of cases where such exceptions may be made? — -The answer I gave to your first question on this sub- ject was, that I think that the discretion of making those exceptions cannot be safely intrusted to all boards of guardians ; I have seen boards of guardians acting for a long lime with a full discretion upon that particular point, as to whe- ther relief should be given to the able-bodied in the workhouse or out of the work- house ; and they have exercised their discretion in ditlerent ways ; some of them would act just as if they had the rule actually prohibiting all out-door relief to the able-bodied ; others would make some few exceptions to that rule ; and there would be difi'erent degrees of propriety in the exceptions made by different boards ; other boards of guardians, again, would be so constituted (and a great deal depends upon the constitution of the board of guardians) as to give a much more lax and liberal administration of out-door relief than was necessary, with reference to the general circumstances of the district. 3913. Do you, then, think that the Poor Law Amendment Act is so constructed, that it cannot work throughout the country with the machinery contemplated by that Act, without the control and superintendence of a perpetual Board of Com- missioners ? — I think that the machinery itself is intrinsically a very great improve- ment, if it were merely organized, and left without any central control, or any thing by way of regulation, restraining the discretion of the local administrators; - but I am quite sure that the control of the central authority is necessary in some eases, to insure a right and good practice, and indeed to prevent actual mis- 'chief; I am not saying that that is absolutely necessary for the restraint of actual mi.schief in all cases of boards of guardians which may have been established ; but - then there is the further consideration,, that those boards ol guardians of which I Lave ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 13 have been speaking-, as well constituted, and as using their discretion without Alfred Power, Esq. any mischief, may be different boards in future years, and there is no security for the permanence of that good management without a central authority. 7 March 1838. 3914. Do you think then that the only security for permanent good manage- ment consists in having a perpetual Board of Commissioners in London ? — I think that, perhaps, there is no other so good security for permanent good management. 391/5. Mr. Fiddei/.'l Was this letter, circulated in Chorltoii, published before or alter the book which you have alluded to, containing the rules and regulations of the Poor Law Commissioners? — I could, by inquiring at the office, ascertain when this book was printed and struck off", but it was about the same time ; whe- ther it was before or after I cannot tell. 3916. Have you not said that there was the word '' will" in that book, which is not contained in this letter? — Yes. 3917. Will that enable you to determine which was published first? — That was certainly published after my original draft of the letter, which original draft, of course, went up, and formed the instruction for this paper. 3918. If you had wished the rate-payers and inhabitants of Chorlton to be fully informed, could not that book have been circulated with as much facility as this letter? — There were, I believe, 1,000 copies of this book printed for the use of my district ; I was anxious to have as great a supply of them as possible, but I think the Commissioners determined upon printing 1,000 copies ; some of these went to Chorlton; the guardians might, if they had chosen, have gone to the expense of multiplying the circulation of this book, but I did not ask them to go to the expense of doing more than publishing that letter in that shape. 3919. But did not the circulation of this letter precede the circulation of that book in the Chorlton Union I — 1 think probably it did ; there would be sent down to the Chorlton Union, immediately after the striking off of this book, a number of copies, but I have difficulty in speaking to the point of time. 3920. I have been informed that a great rise in the rates has already taken place in the Chorlton Union ; if this be true, and it be also true that the poor are not better treated than they were before the union was formed, is it not reason- able that the inhabitants of Chorlton should petition Parliament for the repeal of the law ? — I am not aware myself that there has been an increase of the amount of rates levied in the shape of poor-rates ; if that were the case, it would not necessarily imply an increased expenditure with regard to the poor ; because I should say that one-half, or nearly one-half, of the whole poor-rate levied in the Chorlton Union is not applied to the relief of the poor, but to other purposes ; there might, therefore, be an increase in the other public purposes; but if it appeared that, through the administration of the board of guardians of the Chorl- ton" Union, there had been an increase in the department of relief to the poor, 1 do not gather from that any impression against the present mode of administer- ing relief, either with respect to expense or the comforts of the poor; it would not be unreasonable to expect that there had been some increase ; it very possibly may have happened that there was more dispensed to the poor during that quarter than in the former year, because the three years upon which the average was taken were years of unexampled prosperity ; as is well known, that was not the case during the last year. 3921. What do you mean by unexampled prosperity; are there not a number of poor people in the Chorlton Union who, during this time of unexampled pros- perity, have been labouring at wages not sufficient for their maintenance r — I do not conceive that there was much relief given by any of the townships of the Chorlton Union to persons suffering from insufficiency of earnings in those three years. 3922. Are you aware that there are a great number of hand-loom weavers resi- dent within that union ? — No, I do not think that there are a great number of hand-loom weavers resident in the Chorlton Union. 3923. Supposing there should be 500 or 1,000 of those hand-loom weavers resident in the townships comprised in the (Chorlton Union, have those people been in those prosperous circumstances that they could do without having relief allowed them, unless they were subjected to privations, which make those who live amongst them unhappy ? — -Speaking of the three years preceding the 2.5th of March 1837, 1 do not think that there were during those three years hand-loom weavers, to any very great extent, who were receiving relief from the poor-rates of the 192- B 3 Chorlton 14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alficd Pomr, Esq. Chorlton Union ; there might be a few cases, but I do not know that there were ■ any in distress, during those three years. The weavers in that quarter, 7 March 1838. about Manchester, are frequently silk-weavers ; and I do not hear that the silk- weavers are, in a good time of trade, distressed ; but the weavers of calico, even in good times, latterly have not earned great wages ; but to what extent they exist in the Chorlton Union I have no information, 1 should think by no means in great numbers. 3924. Do you know that during the session of 1834 and 1835 there was a Committee sitting in this House to inquire into the state of the hand-loom weavers ? — Yes, 1 am aware of that. 3925. And that before that Committee it was proved that there were a very great number of silk-weavers and cotton-weavers in Manchester, in Chorlton, and in the whole district round, who could not earn more than 5s. or 5 s. Gd. a week gross wages? — I am not acquainted with the details of the information obtained by that Committee. 3926. But supposing that those details are true, would you say that the weavers were in a state of unexampled prosperity? — When I was using that expression, I was speaking with reference to the general population of the district during the three years on which the average was taken, namely, 1835, 1836 and 1837. -'- 3927. Chah'rnan.'] You mean that at that time trade was prosperous, and the population were generally well employed ?— Yes. 3928. Mr. Fielden.] It is possible that you may have been led away with incorrect information upon the subject ; are you aware that in the correspondence which passed between individuals in that district in 1834 and the Poor Law Commissioners, it was represented that the hand-loom weavers were scarce, and inviting the population of the south to be sent down into the north to equalize •wao-es? — No, I have no recollection of any correspondence which stated that there was a deficiency of hand-loom weavers. '::' '"^ ' 3929. Chaii'man.^ When was the Chorlton Union established for the adminis- tration of relief? — Relief has been administered by the board of guardians in some few of the townships of the Chorlton Union during a great part of the quarter beginning 29th September last. 3930. Has it been administered throughout the whole of the townships of that union for the quarter of the year ? — No, certainly not. -' 3931. In those townships in which it has been administered during a quarter of a year or half a year, what have been the effects upon the condition of the poorer classes of able-bodied labourers ? — I cannot give any account of any effect further than I have mentioned. 3932. Has relief been refused to those persons out of the workhouse? — Cer- tainly not ; there has been relief administered to able-bodied persons by the offer of admission to the workhouse in some cases, and in some cases by out-door relief either in money or in provisions ; the abstract of the Chorlton Union will give some information upon the subject. ■ 3033- What effect can the law, since the rules of the Commissioners were intro- duced, have had upon the labourers in that district? — I conceive that it can have had very little effect indeed upon the condition of the labourers in that district. 3934. Mr. Fieli/eti.] Has a union under the new law been formed at Hudders- field?— Yes. 3935. Did you experience considerable difficulty in getting a clerk appointed to that union ? — Yes. 31^36. How was that clerk appointed ; by a majority of the guardians or other- ■wise? — At the time that the election of the clerk took place there were two candidates proposed ; one of those received eight votes, and the other six ; there were 14 guardians, therefore, who voted in the election of the clerk ; there were a greater number of guardians, who did not vote for either candidate, present at the meeting. 3037. Did the chairman of the meeting refuse to put the question to the vote, whether or not the clerk should be appointed ? — I think that that was not the question which the chairman of the union refused to put, and I am afraid that I have not the paper with me that would show ; but I rather think that the question which the chairman refused to put, was an adjournment for some consi- derable period ; lie did refuse to put some question of that nature, hostile to the election ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1S38.) 15 election of the clerk ; and I believe it was either a motion for an adjournment, or Alfred Poii:er,Esq an amendment for an adjournment to some long period. _ — — 3938. Had that question been put by the chairman, are you of opinion that it 7 March 1838. would have been carried by the majority of the guardians that were then present ? — I think it very likely that it would. 3939. Then do you think that that mode of appointing a clerk, in order to introduce the new Poor Law Bill, is likely to make it popular in that district? — I certainly consider it a disadvantage to introduce the law under such unfavour- able circumstances ; but the law, as it appears to me, must be carried into effect, whether under favourable or unfavourable circumstances. ;-), 3940. Is it likely, then, that they should at once infer that the board of guardians are not those who are to execute the law, but a power placed over them which shall direct them ? — It was the board of guardians, most distinctly, in this case, who carried the law into effect. 394 1 . Were there 30 members, or more, present at the board of guardians, when the question was brought forward? — There were. 3942. Did six vote for one candidate, and eight for another ? — That was so. 3943. Did not the remaining 18, or whatever the number was, refuse to sanction the appointment of the clerk? — They took no part in the appointment of the clerk. 3944. Did they not make strong objections to that question being discussed, or a vote being come to upon it? — There was, I have no doubt, a discussion of that nature going on, and I have no doubt that many of the members of the board would make such objections. 3945. Do you think that the opinion in Huddersfield does not prevail, that the new law is introduced amongst them contrary to their wishes, thinking, as they do, that there is no necessity for it? — It is, no doubt, in opposition to the wishes of a great many persons at Huddersfield and the neighbourhood. 3946. An immense majority ? — No, I should not admit any such conclusion at all, from what has occurred. 3947. Do you know what the rates levied for the relief of the poor were in the last year in the township of Huddersfield? — ^The rates in the year ending March 1837, amounted to 10,7G2/. 3948. What is the population ? — Eighty-eight thousand seven hundred and seventy-two. 3949. Is that a low rate per head levied for the relief of the poor, and of which there is no just reason to complain ? — I do not think it is a low rate per head for the relief of the poor in that district. It is about, I think, the same proportion that the expense of the relief of the poor bears in the Halifax and Bradford Unions. 3950. You anticipate a reduction of the rates by the introduction of the new law ? — I do. 3951. And that without increasing the sufferings of those who are in want, and ought to have relief? — Yes, I do. 395'2. Do you know what the rates for the relief of the poor were in the Oldham Union for the year ending 25th March 1837? — I have given them in a former answer. They are returned 3,268/. I should observe, upon both those returns relating to Huddersfield and Oldham, that they are derived from the Parliamentary returns, and the averages have not been obtained in the usual way, and I have no doubt that they would be, if ascertained in the usual way, higher than they are in the Parliamentary returns ; and I will, if I may be allowed, state the reason for that. It depends on the headings in the form of the return. " Expended in the relief of the poor," forms one of the headings ; and " Other expenses," is another of the headings. Now, under that head of " Other expenses," there are very frequently included charges which are incidental to the relief of the poor; and the returns are made differently by different townships. Some include under those headings some items, and others other items, and it is only by accurate and particular investigation of the books that one can obtain the whole expenses of relief; and that applies more to the north than to the south, on this account, that the salaries and incidental expenses of relieving the poor, bear a greater proportion in the north of England than they have done heretofore in the ' south ; and those will frequently come under the head of "Other expenses." 3953. Have you heard any complaint amongst the inhabitants of the Oldham Union that the rates were higher than they ought tp be if the poor were properly attended to ? — No, I have not. 192. B4 3954. Tlicn i6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Poller, Esq. 3954 Then do you think that there is any reason for interfering with that dis- • trict, by introducing- the new law to carry out the administration in the Oldham 7 March 1838. Union? — There appears to be in the Oldham Union a much smaller expenditure on the relief of the poor in proportion to the population, than in any union in that county, and, I should think, in England ; and I think, that possibly there may not be any great reduction, if any, of expenditure, in consequence of the intro- duction of the new law ; there are, however, many advantages connected with the new machinery of management, which I am glad to have an opportunity of stating. I think it important that the collection of the rates, and the dispensing of relief to the poor, will, under the new system, be kept entirely distinct ; and that in keeping the accounts there will be a distinct classification of items, both as to the amount collected and the amount disbursed ; in both of those departments there will be, universally, officers of a good stamp, giving full security for the execution of their duties ; whereas, at present there are a number of officers exist- ing in the separate townships whose salaries will average from 5/. to 100/. or 200 /. per annum, and who will perform their duties with very different degrees of ability, and who in very few instances give security ; there will be, in every one of those unions, the advantage of a quarterly strict audit of accounts introduced ; there will be at the head of every union establishment, a person of standing and ability and character, to conduct all the correspondence belonging to the relief of tlie poor in the several townships, I allude to the clerk of the unions ; that same individual will give very important assistance and advice with respect to the settlement cases and other points of law that may arise. With respect to workhouses, at present there is no where more than one workhouse belonging either to the separate townships or to several townships united ; and as all the workhouses within the union will be at the disposal of the guardians, opportunities will be given for the classification of inmates, by using more buildings than one for the same union, and without going to any great expense. This object, wliich I think it is very important to obtain, could not be obtained without the intro- duction of the union powers of the Poor Law Amendment Act, excepting by putting the township, or a collection of townships, to a considerable expense. 3955. Have you seen the way in which the accounts are kept in the township of Oldham ? — I have not, 3956. If the inhabitants are satisfied with the way in which they are kept, and you have not seen them, have you any right, or is there any reason why you should complain of the keeping of the accounts in that township ? — I do not know as to the keeping of the accounts in the particular township of Oldham ; if oppo- sition had not been made there, of a peculiar nature, to the introduction of the law, I should have known more on the subject than I now do ; but I have particular means of information with respect to the keeping of accounts generally throughout the manufacturing districts, and I should say that they are very far indeed from being satisfactory with reference to any of the unions; exceptions will here and there prevail, particularly with respect to the large townships, such as Oldiiam, Blackburn, Wigan, and those large places where they have the very institution that we are proposing to introduce generally, namely, a paid officer of a good stamp, competent to keep the accounts, and giving security, in many instances, for the execution of his duty, and, therefore, I have no doubt that in those towns the accounts have been better kept and the whole duties have been better performed than elsewhere ; but hardly any where except in those large towns is security given by any officer. 3957- Chairman?^ Under the new system will security be given in every case? — In every case by every person connected with the collecting or dispensing of poor-rates. 3958. Mr. Fidden.'] Have you heard that any loss has been sustained by any officer misapplying the rates collected in the northern districts ? — Yes, I have heard of cases of considerable defalcation on the part of the officers. 3959- VVhere did you hear that? — I have heard it in conversation, and I have had it represented in writing. 3960. Do you know what the rates are in the Todmorden Union? — I have them from the Parliamentary returns cast up ; the average is 2,734/., the last year 2,563/. 3961. What is the population ? — Twenty-three thousand three hundred and ninety-seven, ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 17 ninety-seven, as it is given in the report, but it has been suggested by Mr. Fielden Al fred Pouer, E sq. that there is an omission of 6,000, which would make it 29,397. 3062. Are any complaints made in that union against the practices pursued 7 -> « -i • under the old law ?— No ; no complaints have reached me from that particular 3963". Was there the full complement of guardians before the clerk was appointed for that union ?— Some of the townships did not return guardians, cither at the first, I believe, or at the second election ; I believe, in a great mea- sure, in consequence of a public meeting that was held just previously to the tune of the election of guardians, or about the same time. 1 must add also, that I had it from parties tlfemselves who were nominated, and who would otherwise have . served, that they were acting under intimidation in withdrawing from the representation. • , ^ .i 1 ■ 3064. Can a union be formed in conformity with the Act, without there being o-uai-dians appointed for every township in that union ?— I conceive it can. "^ 3065 What are your reasons for entertaining that opmion?— It is a question of law arising out of the provisions of the Act, and the opinion of the attorney and solicitor-general has been obtained upon the point, to the effect that there is no impediment to the board of guardians proceeding with their business, although some of the townships included in the union may not have elected guardians. 3966. In the other unions which you have formed in the north, have there been similar cases of townships not returning guardians? — There have been a few cases of townships not returning guardians, but not to a greater extent, I" should say, than has happened in the south of England, excepting always the case of Oldham, where not one was returned. 3967. Do you know the names of the unions where the full complement of guardians was not returned by the rate-payers before the appointment of the clerk?— With reference to the first elections, I think there were very few instances ; and in many of the unions I do not know what townships may or may not have returned guardians at the second election; in all those that are in operation, guardians have, 2-enerally speaking, been elected for every township ; those I am particularly acquainted with ; but with the exception of those 13, I cannot speak ; I know that in Bury there is a deficiency in the board, and I cannot mention any others. 3968. Chairman.] In the instances where there is a deficiency, we understand you to say that the Poor Law Act is not in operation for the administration of j-eiief ? — It is not; the regulations have not been issued. 3969. In all those cases where the law is in operation for the administration of relief, guardians have been appointed for all the townships?— The election had taken place in all cases previously to the issue of the rules and regulations of the Commissioners; and in those unions that are in operation, 1 think the full com- plement of guardians is almost invariably elected ; there may be here and there a township or two that have not elected a guardian. 3970. Mr. Fielden.'] You were asked this question, " Did you at Bradford, when you went there, find the five magistrates entertaining a feeling of hostility to the new Poor Law ?" your answer is, " I had heard that some of them were disinclined to the introduction of the new law, and I know that one of the five o-entlemen expressed his opinion in public against its introduction." The next question was, " Do you, or do you not, know that those five magistrates are in favour of it now ?" and your answer was, "I really believe that they are, from every thing I can learn ;'" do you know that one of the magistrates there was stated to have altered his opinion with regard to the new law, in the " Leeds Mercury," a little before the period that you are alluding to, and that great credit was given to him for his having changed his opinion ; and do you know also, that that magistrate wrote an answer to the " Leeds Mercury " the week following, stating that his opinion of the law remained unchanged?— I am per- fectly avvare of the magistrate to whom you allude ; and it is the same magistrate to whom I alluded in my former answer to Mr. Lister's question. That gentleman, on the day when the first disturbance took place at Bradford, stated to me per- sonally, and in the presence of the whole board of guardians, that, although he had on a former occasion taken a public part in opposition to the intro- duction of the new Poor Law, he had, since he had .seen the regulations of the Commissioners, been led to change his mind; this was at the time of a discussion on the question, whether the guardians should go back to the court- 1 92. c house, iS MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Pover, Esq. house, in order to hold their proceedings in public, a proposition which I myself o|)posed, but which this gentleman, the magistrate, advocated ; he said that he 7 March 1838. -would, if the guardians would go back, to the court-house and hold a public meeting, distinctly say to the people in public that he had changed his mind on that subject ; and I believe that was a reason with many of the guardians for going back to the court-house, and that step was carried into effect, unfortunately, as I think ; and in the court-house this gentleman did certainly read over to the people the regulations of the Poor Law Commissioners ; he referred to his former opposition upon that subject ; and he stated that he believed the regulations of the Commissioners, and the introduction of the law, would do good in Bradford. 1 have heard that there was a communication made by the same gentleman after- wards to the " Leeds Mercury ;" and I have heard that that was to the general effect you have mentioned, but I am not acquainted with the exact terms ; and I had no idea when I gave that answer, nor have I now, that any opposition would be made by that gentleman to the introduction of the law, after the course that 1 had seen him take in person.- 3971. Were the orders to which you allude the orders sent down to the Chorlton Union? — Yes. 3972. From those orders was the magistrate led to believe that the magistrates would have a discretion in ordering relief, and that the overseers would have a power to relieve, and that the management of relief to the poor would be abso- lutely in the board of guardians?— Certainly ; that letter explained the actual state of the law as regarded the powers of the magistrates and overseers iiere- after, a power which is reserved to them by the provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act, and which no act of the Commissioners can take away from them ; of course he had access to that document, and had it in his hands at the time, together with the form of the order actually issued to the Bradford guardians. 3973. Could not the Commissioners issue new orders, which would altogether set aside the previous orders? — They could, and there was no disguise upon that subject ; for I distinctly explained, on that very occasion, at Bradford, that 1 could not possibly answer for any thing more than what the Commissioners had done, and that they certainly had the power to issue further rules. 3974. What reason have you for believing that this individual magistrate among the five has changed his mind, and become favourable to this new Poor Law? — The reason which I stated at length. 3975. That was at a previous period, was it not? — The first disturbance that occurred at Bradford was on the meeting of the guardians to carry into ett'ect those rules and regulations which are printed. 3976. On what date was that meeting? — The 30th of October last. 3977. Have you seen the magistrate, or had any conversation with him upon tins subject, since he published his letter in the Leeds Mercury? — No, 1 have not had any conversation. 3978. Then the letter in the Leeds Mercury, being later than any conversation you have had with him, should it not be taken as the conclusion in his mind as • to whether he is or is not favourable to the new law? — Yes; I do not know precisely what is contained in that letter. 3979. Question 3514 was this : " Have you heard how the Poor Law is work- ing in Bradford at present?"—" I hear that every thing is going on well, and in a satisfactory manner to the board of guardians themselves." From whom did you receive that information?— I received it personally, at the board of guardians, from the chairman, on one occasion ; I have received it since by communications from the clerk ; I have received it also by personal communication with one of the members of this Committee, who told me that he had information that every thing was going on well and satisfactorily there ; he spoke more generally than I did ; of course I could not carry my information beyond the board of guardians, and therefore I qualified it. 3980. This information which you have received has been either from the guardians or some of the magistrates of the place ? — Yes, or the clerk. 3981. Is the manner in which the new law is working there satisfactory to the rate-payers and to the poor ? — I have no reason to believe to the contrary at all, 3982. Have you any reason to believe that it is ? — I really do not quite know in what manner you conceive it possible that it should be ascertained whether it is satisfactory or not to the rate-payers, by which I presume is meant the majority of ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 19 of the rate-payers, and that again may be cither in property or in value ; the ^i/freil Pmin, Esq. question is so general, that it is impossible to answer it. 3983. Cfunrmau.] Did what you heard from the guardians lead you to suppose 7 March 1838. that the law was going on satisfactorily, not merely with reference to themselves, but with reference to the population generally contained within the union, whether the rate-payers or the poor? — I conclude that if it were going on satisfactorily to the guardians ihemsclves, it would be going on in a way to satisfy the rate-payers and the poor too, because I am sure that that board of guardians would not be satisfied unless satisfaction were given to both parties. 3984. Mr. Fielden.'] Do you know that subscriptions for the relief of the poor at Bradford have been lately raised ?— I have heard that there was a subscription raised at Bradford, principally with reference to the injury which was received by the poor during the flood ; I saw that in the papers, but there may have been some other subscription, of which 1 have no knowledge ; and I must say further, that it is the case almost universally throughout the towns in the north of Eno-lan'd, that there have been subscriptions raised, vvhetlier they were under the new Poor Law or under the old Poor Law, at Leeds, Preston, Blackburn, Bury, Wio-an and other places; not in consequence, I am sure, of the introduction of the nevv Poor Law. If you would allow me, I will revert again to what I stated on a former occasion, with regard to the limited degree of freedom with which relief can be administered in populous places, without a proper workhouse system ; I do not know whether such subscriptions may be thought necessary hereafter, but cer- tainly, now, they seem to spring up in every large town which remains under the operation of the old law. 398 5-*^- If t^i6 guardians were administering relief to the poor who were in want, would there have been any necessity for a subscription for their relief? — I do not know that there was any necessity for the subscription. 3987. Do you think a subscription would have been raised unless there was o-reat suflering by the poor ? — When I hear that a subscription has been thought necessary by the persons on the spot, I think it very likely there would be a good deal of distress prevailing. •-•oSS. Have you not stated that weavers cannot earn more than the 3^., or 4.y., or 55. a week ? — Some classes of the weavers ; what 1 stated was, that I had heard those representations made by the weavers themselves to the board of guardians, and there was nothing at all to contradict those statements forthcoming. 3989. Do you believe that those statements were true? — With respect to 4*., or 5s. or 6*. a week, 1 should not doubt that they would be true, in many cases, of the earnino-s of an individual hand-loom weaver of coarse calico. 3990. But the weavers in Bradford are not employed in coarser cotton at all ? — No they are not ; and when I made that statement, it was not with reference to weavers in worsted or woollen. 3991. What wages do they receive for worsted weaving? — The wages at a depressed time of trade, in worsted and woollen, may be very low, but it is not the case with them as it is with weavers of coarse calico ; the latter earn very low wages even in good times, on account principally of the competition of the power-looms, but there is not the competition of the power-looms in the worsted or the woollen trades, to the same degree as in the cotton ; and in o-ood times, weavers in worsted and in the woollen trade, who at depressed times will earn very small wages, perhaps, will earn very considerable wages ; I have heard the wages stated as high as 18 5. for an individual, and it must be consi- dered, that the younger members of the family, for instance, a girl at 'the age of 14 will earn a considerable proportion of what an adult could. 3992. Have you made yourself sufficiently acquainted with the rate of wages in Bradford and Huddersfield and Leeds, and those districts, to speak with accuracy on the subject I — No, I am not proposing to give any specific information upon those subjects ; but the information has been obtained very specifically, and could be produced before tiiis Committee at any time, as to the rate of earnings generally throughout that district. 3093. Chairman.^ How could that be obtained ? — A gentleman who has been employed under the Poor Law Commissioners, as migration agent, Mr. Baker, has obtained statistical information ujion that subject throughout that district. 3994. Mr. J/i/e*.] Is that published ? — It is not ; there would be found, by 192. c 2 the 20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFOI^E SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Power, Esq. the production of information of that kind, a very high state of wages with respect to a great part of the population of the manufacturing districts. 7 March 1838. 3995. Mr. Fielden.^ Supposing that three-fourths of the weavers in the Brad- ford Union could not obtain more than 5 s. a week in wages, do not you think that there would be a necessity for considerable relief in the shape of a subscription to aid them? — I believe that in times of distress there has heretofore been existing an impression in those towns that weavers and other persons forming the lowest-paid class of operatives, at a depressed time could not receive efficient relief out of the poor-rates, and I believe that impression has given rise, almost universally, to sub- scriptions in times of distress throughout the north heretofore. 3996. Are not the rates there levied upon propeity ? — The rate is a personal rate, levied under the Act of Elizabeth, charged according to assessment upon property. 3997. If there be any property sufficient to raise a subscription fund, is it not also sufficient to raise a rate to relieve the poor ? — There is sufficient property, no doubt, to bear much heavier rates than are raised ; at the same time some of the parties paying the rates will be occasionally very much pressed. 3998. Cliainnau.'] Is there not a class of parties who are called upon to pay rates, who are just removed above the class in want of the necessaries of life r — Wherever the rates are strictly collected it will involve a number of individuals, even of the lowest class. 3999. Would not, therefore, the strict collection of the rates tend to diminish the funds out of which the rates are collected, and to increase the number of applicants for relief? — It might have that effect. 4000. Mr. Fieldejz.^ Is not a compulsory rate for the relief of the poor more just and more to be relied upon than voluntary contributions? — I certainly think that the poor-rate is the proper fund to relieve distress from'; a voluntary subscription is precarious, both as to its extent and the point of time at which it might be raised ; again as to its administration ; there will be invariably, under any system, a better organized administration of a regular fund, than of one which may start up suddenly. 4001. In answer to a former question relative to hand-loom weavers, I think you said that weavers from 20 to 40 years of age in the manufacturing districts of the north could readily find other occupations; what was your reason for giving that opinion? — My statement would apply to the individuals who could not maintain themselves by hand-loom weaving ; and I feel no doubt that that pro- portion of persons who could not maintain themselves by hand-loom weaving — the surplus of hands, if you may call it so, in that department — between those ages which I have specified, would not have difficulty in finding, under ordinary cir- cumstances^ — (tfiey might, at a particular time of depression of trade, have a difficulty) — but under ordinary circumstances, I think, they would have no difficulty in turning their hands to other employments in that country, because I know that there has been great want of hands in that country, with respect to factories particularly. 4002. Where has there been a want of hands for the factories? — New factories have been built to a very great extent within a very short period, which will require new hands, and those very statements to which you referred before from some gentlemen in Lancashire, mention a want of hands in some particular departments of manufacture, particularly with respect to the factories. 4003. Then you have seen the statements of those gentlemen ? — I have had them put into my hands since I left the room ; while I was out of the room ; and I found nothing there about hand-loom weavers, but about other departments of trade. 4004. Do you think that the hands required for the new factories you liave spoken of, would absorb one-twentieth or one-fortieth part of the hand-loom weavers, between 20 and 40 years of age, supposing they were disposed to go into the factories? — I have not assumed that it would be necessary for the whole of the weavers between 20 and 40 to leave their trade ; I am supposing that it would be necessary only for the surplus hands to go ; that would be a small proportion of the whole number ; 1 have no certain means of information about it, but I have not an impression of a very great number, as compared with the whole population, of persons engaged in that occupation now in the greater part of Lancashire. 4005. Are you aware that there are three times as many hands employed in hand-loom weaving as there are in all the factories in England? — In the hand- loom ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 21 loom weaving in worsted and woollen, the power-loom has interfered to a slight Alfred Vo-wer, Esq. extent ; in the silk it has interfered only with respect to plain silks, and not figured ones. The great body of the hand-loom weavers will be weavers in worsted, and 7 March 1838. woollen, and silk, and flax ; the most distressed class, the calico-weavers, will form a small proportion of the whole. 4006. You have spoken of the silk as not having been interfered with by the power-loom? — I said the figured silks; I have understood that the figured silks are not much interfered with by the power-looms. 4007. Do you or do you not know whether the silk weavers in Manchester are not as badly paid for their work as the cotton-weavers in Manchester? — I had, certainly, an apprehension that the hand-loom weaving in silk was better paid than the hand-loom weaving in cotton in Manchester, and I think it would be found so in an ordinary state of trade. 4008. If they are paid at the same rate, are you not of opinion that there must be as much distress among the silk-weavers as among the cotton-weavers ? — Of course, if the wages are not higher, at any time they would be exposed to the same distress as the cotton-weavers. 4009. When you have heard statements made of some parties who could earn 18*. a week, were you led to infer from that, that any considerable number of weavers could obtain work of that description? — No, I did not produce the impression by my answer, I think, that any great number of persons would obtain so much, but I spoke of it as an extreme case, in fact. 4010. From your answer, I take it that you have not that knowledge on the subject, tliat you can speak with any degree of confidence r — No, 1 do not advance my knowledge upon that subject, as being to be relied upon by any means ; I merely state my impressions, and the grounds, so far as I am able. 4011. Can you state where you think those weavers between 20 and 40 could find employment, provided they were disposed to make a change from weavino- to other employments'? — Knowing that in factories, establislied either for spinning or for weaving, there would be a small proportion of adult male persons employed as compared with the whole population of the factory, I inquired particularly at Black- burn, hearing that there were many weavers receiving relief there, whether it would be practicable, when the power-loom factories are put in motion, for the men who had been used to hand-loom weaving, to apply themselves to the super- intendence of power-looms, and the answer I gave with reference to the ages, was in consequence of the information that I then obtained, and it came from very good authority, and I do not know that there is any thing to impugn it; I learnt that an active man between those ages, who had been used to the hand-loom, would very readily turn his hand to attend to the power-looms ; and they would generallv obtain at that a higher rate of wages than they can at hand-loom weaving ; tha"t observation might be extended beyond the age of 40, but it was not considered likely to extend beyond that. 4012. My question was, whether this sort of employment at the power-loom, or anywhere else, could be obtained by those hand-loom weavers? — Yes; with reference to the Blackburn Union particularly, I have no doubt that it would be obtained on the spot ; with regard to the whole district, I have reasonable pre- sumption that it would, arising from the high state of wages usually paid in the district, and the great outlay which has been made on new mills and machinery. 4013. In your former answer to a question put to you by the Committee, 3208, you state what the objections were to the new law in those districts in the north ; one was the relief being only in the workhouse ; another, the separation of the sexes ; a third, the diet in the workhouses ; and a fourth, the central board ; have you heard any other objections than those urged against the new law in those districts ? — Those were the principal topics of opposition which occurred to my mind at the time; there are none others which present themselves at this moment. 4014. Are not the unions of townships complained of; is not the circumstance of the townships being formed into unions one general complaint? — No, I do not think I have heard that complained of, except with reference to the o-eneral introduction of the law. 4015. Has there not been a pretty general expression of opinion, that the town- ships would rather remain as they are and manage their own parochial affairs than be united to other townships ? — Yes, but I may say that the topics which were mentioned before were with reference to what had caused a violent popular ii)2. C3 excitement; 22 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred Pomr, Esq. excitement ; there is that feeling, I have no doubt, prevailing to some extent . in the townships as to the separate management of their own affairs ; I never 7 March 1838. went any where to form a union where I did not find that prevailing ; the worst parishes in other parts of England were generally the most urgent in that view. 4016. Is not the plurality of votes, and votes by proxy also, complained of as another great objection to the introduction of this law? — No, I cannot say that that reached me ; it may be entertained ; it is not a very exciting topic, and it does not get much into the papers, nor has it come before me in any shape. 4017. Have not very strong feelings been expressed on it at the numerous meetings that have taken place to express their disapproval of the new law r — No, I cannot say that I have witnessed that. 4018. You have not attended the meetings ?— No. /^oig. Nor read the speeches of the speakers? — I do not think that I have read them all ; I read some of them, as far as I can find time. 4020. Not having heard the speakers, nor read the speeches, you do not know what they may have said ? — I have read a great number of them, but I do not recollect to have seen that topic urged. 4021. Are not the bastardy clauses universally complained of? — There is a feeling of dissatisfaction with respect to the bastardy clauses, which I mentioned in my previous evidence, but that cjuestion has nothing to do with the intro- duction of the regulations of the Commissioners. 4022. But it forms a part of the new law ?- — It does. 4023. Is not the power to attach wages, also, complained of, when relief has been given by way of loan ? — Yes ; I have heard that topic mentioned, and I have seen observations made upon it in speeches. 4024. Do you think there is any master in that district who would employ a man, if an attempt was made to force upon him the payment of loans granted for that man's relief? — I cannot tell what the operation would be in that respect ; I must observe, however, that it is not made, by any regulation of the Commis- sioners, imperative upon the board of guardians either to give relief by way of loan in any particular case, or, in case they give it, to attempt to recover it. 4025. Are not the emigration clauses in the Act also complained of ? — Yes; I think i have seen that, but I do not think it has formed a very prominent topic. 4026. With regard to the separation of the sexes in the workhouse ; I believe you are a professional gentleman ; is it or is it not illegal ? — No, it is not illegal, in my belief; I never felt any doubt that it was legal ; I have heard it stated that it was illegal ; but I had never presented to my mind any ground for argument upon it. 4027. You, being a lawyer, ought to know whether it is legal or not ?— I never heard any argument against it ; I have no doubt of its legality. 4028. Do you believe that single men, in every part of England, can obtain wages sufficient for their maintenance? — It is not every single man whose character would recommend him to an employer. 4029. In some petitions sent up to me a short time ago there were young men from 16 to 18 years of age, who stated in that petition, that they were receiv- ing only 3s. to 4*. a week ; do you consider that those wages were adequate for their support? — I could not fix any amount which I should consider to be necessary under all circumstances for the maintenance of a single man, but 1 can state the lowest amount that I have heard as being given to support a single man, and that was the amount allowed very generally throughout tlie counties in which I was first engaged, by magistrates under the old law, when a man was supposed to be entirely dependent upon the parish ; it was never higher than 3*. and frequently as low as 2s. Qd. ; but 1 do not say that that is enough to support a man ; it must depend, in some measure, upon the habits and the circumstance* of the place where he lives. 4030. Do you know that they are called boys in the districts in the south, of which you are speaking, and till they get to the age of 18, and receive boys' wages? — No. 4031. Mr. Fidden.'] Are there not a great many young men from 16 to 18 that do not receive more than 3*. or 4*. a week? — I am not acquainted with any such facts. 4032. Do you know that it is not so? — No, I do not. TWELFTH REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT; WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Ordered, by The House of Commons, to he Priultil, 7 March 1838, 192. THIRTEENTH REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT: WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Pritded, 9 March 1838. ^94. L ii ] ZuticE, 21' die Novembris, 1837. Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquii'e into tlie Administration of the Relief of the Poor, under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act. Ordered, That the Committee consist of Twenty-one Members : Lord John Russell. Mr. Ward. Mr. Fazakerley. Lord Viscount Howick. Mr. Richard Walker. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Poulett Scrope. Mr. Villiers. Mr. Baines. Mr. Miles (Somerset). Mr. Boiling. Mr. Law Hodges. Mr. Lister. Mr. Chichester. Sir Thomas Fremantle. Mr. Slaney. Mr. Barneby. Mr. Freshfield, Mr. Liddell. Mr. John Fielden Mr. Estcourt (Devizes). Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers and Recoixls. Ordered, That Five be the Quorum of the Committee. Jovis, 8° die Febniarii, 1838. Ordered, That power be given to the Committee to report the Minutes of tlie Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House. THE REPORT p. iii MINUTES OF EVIDENCE p. 1 [ iii ] REPORT. THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the Administration of the Relief of the Pooii under the Orders and Regulations issued by the CoMMissiONEiiS appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act; and who were empowered to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House ; — TTAV^E taken some furllier Evidence, which they Iiave agreed to report to ■*■ -*■ The House. 9 March ] 838. 194- &2 [ iv ] \y I T N E S S E S. JMtillhea- Johnson - - - - - - p. i Alfred Power, 'Eii<\. - -. - - - - j). lo ( I ) MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Veneris, 9' die Martii, 1838. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. Bailies. Mr. Cliiclieslcr. Mr. Estcourt. Mr. Fielden. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Hodges. Lord Howick, Mr. Liddell. Mr. Lister. Mr. Miles, Lord John Russell. Mr. P. Sciope. Mr. Wcikley. MR. FAZAKERLEY in the Chair. Mattheiv Johnson, Esq., called in ; and Examined. 4034. Mr. Baines.] WHERE do you reside ? — At Leeds. M. Johnson, E«q. 4035. Are you in business there ? — Yes. 403(3. In the woollen cloth business ? — Yes, I am. 9 March 1838. 4037. Have you had much experience in the management of parochial affairs under the old system of poor laws?— Yes, for the last 12 years, and upwards. 4038. In what capacity? — As a guardian of the poor under the system of management which has existed in Leeds for about a century past, until two years ago. The parochial affairs in Leeds had been managed, up to about two years ago, by a board consisting of eight churchwardens of the township and 12 trus- tees, annually elected in vestry by the inhabitants, and a certain number of over- seers, appointed under a local Act for the town of Leeds, which authorized the magistrates to appoint any number which they might think proper and necessary ; that system continued till about two years ago, when something occurred which led to ascertaining the opinion of the Attorney-general, as to the legal construc- tion of that board, and the authority of the parties to administer the poor laws, and that opinion was adverse to the constitution of that board, and since that time the administration has been in the hands of 17 overseers, of which I am one. 4039. Have you acted as a paid or as an unpaid officer? — Unpaid officer. 4040. During the whole time you have had to administer the poor law at Leeds ? — Yes. 4041. Both when you were a trustee and when you were in the capacity of an overseer ? — Certainly. 4042. You have used the Avord guardian ; was that a term used in Leeds as applicable to the whole of the workhouse board ? — Yes, that was a term that was applied to the whole board. 4043. And that imder the old system? — Yes. 4044. What is the population of the town of Leeds .^— I should suppose from 90,000 to 100,000. 4045. What has been the average amount of poor-rates collected in that town- sliip ? — About 30,000/. per annum. 4046. You have, of course, a workhouse at Leeds? — We have. 4047. That is managed, I believe, under the old system? — It is, 4048. Is the workhouse generally considered as well conducted under that system ? — It is w'ell conducted, so far as the providing of food and clothing are concerned ; and I may add also, with respect to the instruction of the children in reading and writing and accounts; so far, I think, in reference to those matters, the workhouse may be said to be well conducted, that is, there is a very liberal provision of those things. 194. A 4049- Mr. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE M.Johisuu, Esq. 4049. Mr. Howard, the philanthropist, I believe, visited Leeds at one time? — He did. 9 March 1838. 40,50. Do you know in what way he described the workhouse there? — Yes ; he stated that, in his opinion, Leeds had the best workhouse and the worst gaol in the kingdom. 4051. How many years ago would that be? — It would be 50 or 60 years ago. 4052. Have you any reason to suppose that the workhouse system in Leeds has deteriorated since the time of Mr. Howard's visit ? — Not at all, I should think. 4053. How many inmates have you, on an average, in the workhouse ? — About 250, on an average. 4054. Do you know what are the average earnings obtained by the inmates of the workhouse in reduction of the sum that is expended for their maintenance ? — I fear the amount is but very small ; I do not know whether it would exceed 20 1. a year for the whole ; in fact there is no labour for them, except for the old men, what is called teasing curled hair ; the shape in which the upholsterers get it is in a rough form ; they require it to be pulled into pieces, and we obtain a little employment of that nature for them ; but my impression is, that the value of that labour would not exceed more than about 20/. per annum ; and a few of the old men also sweep some of the streets in the town, but that to a very incon- siderable extent. 40.55. Then, to reduce the sum of 30,000Z., which is the sum collected for the relief of the poor, there is the earning on the part of the inmates of the work- house, to the amount of about 20Z. a year? — Yes, I should say about that sum. 40.56. Is there any classification of the inmates of the workhouse ? — There is a classification to the extent that the nature of the premises will allow ; for in- stance, the females live in one part of the building, the men in another part, the children also are separate, and the sick part of the establishment have wards for their accommodation ; but there is no separation, in point of fact, for the yard is common to all, and the access to the privies is the same. 40.57. Mr. Hod(jes.] The sleeping apartments only are separate ? — Their day- rooms are separate. 40.58. Mr. Lister.] Do they take their meals together ? — Yes. 4059. Mr. Baines.] Do you think a better classification desu-able ? — Very desirable indeed. 4060. Chairfnan.~\ What are the inconveniences which you have observed or heard of as resulting from the present impei'fect classification ? — The incon- veniences relate to almost every class of persons in the establishment ; for instance, the aged people are frequently annoyed more than they ought to be by the intrusion of younger persons ; they are not so detached and separate as is requisite for their comfort ; but the greatest inconvenience arising from the state of things in that establishment is the immorality that prevails, I fear to a very alarming extent, from a variety of facts and circumstances which have come to my knowledge ; I have reason to fear that the adult inmates of that house are in the constant habit of sexual intercourse ; but the greatest evil is in reference to the children ; their morals, I am afraid, are greatly corrupted by that. 4061. Mr. Baines.] Then, is the Committee to collect from your answer, that a better classification would be advantageous to the old, to the young, particularly to the children, and to the inmates of the workhouse generally ? — Yes ; I think I should not do justice to this subject, if I did not state that the immorahty which prevails among the girls, for instance, is such as to lead one to believe that the immorality is greater than could genei'ally be supposed. From information which has been brought before the workhouse board from time to time, and which the members individually have obtained from their connexion with tlie workhouse, I am of opinion that a considerable number of girls, even, are so far depraved as I have referred to in reference to the adults. 40()2. Do you mean the girls that have been brought into the workhouse as paupers, or those that have gi-own up in the house ? — I mean those who have grown up in the house. 4063. Then do you think that the classification according to the system of the union workhouses would be an essential improvement upon the system that exists in the workhouse in Leeds ? — I do indeed. 4(164. Have you a dietary there? — Yes, I have a copy of what the inmates have every day. 4065. Will ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 3 4065. Will you state it ? — On the Sunday, at breakfast, there is a pint and a M. Jahnton, Esq. half of milk porridge and eight ounces of bread ; for dinner on that day there are six ounces of boiled mutton, six ounces of potatoes, four ounces of bread and a ^ l>iarch 1838. pint of beer ; for the supper of that day, a pint and a half of milk porridge and eight ounces of bread. Now the breakfast and supper are the same on every day of the week, the dinners only varying. On the Monday there is a pint and a half of soup, eight ounces of bread and a pint of beer. On the Tuesday, six ounces of beef and pork, six ounces of potatoes, four ounces of bread and a pint of beer. Wednesday the dinner is the same as Monday. Thursday the same as Tuesday. Friday the same as Monday, and on Saturday there are six ounces of pudding, with treacle, eight ounces of bread, two ounces of cheese and a pint of beer. 406b. Is the lodging as good and the food as plentiful in that workhouse as in the families of the labouring poor generally, who support themselves by inde- pendent labour ? — I should say much better. 4067. Do you think it desirable that persons in the workhouse should be sup- ported better than an independent labourer subsisting by his own industry out of the workhouse ?— Certainly not. 4068. Are there any pigs kept in that establishment ? — Yes, we have generally about a dozen. 4069. For what purpose are they kept ? — To eat the broken victuals of the inmates. 4070. Do you know any thing of the management of the Liverpool work- house ? — I have been in it several times, and gone through the whole of it. 4071. How many inmates are there ? — About 1,700, on the average. 4072. Is that a workhouse on the old system ? — Yes. 4073. Do you know how many pigs are kept there for the purpose of con- suming the broken victuals of the inmates ? — I cannot speak accurately, but I should think a very considerable number ; from what I have seen, I should think 30 or 40^ from my recollection of the number I saw. 4074. Have you at any time observed the effect of epidemical diseases upon the inmates of the workhouse at Leeds ? — -Yes, in 1834 there was a very serious attack of cholera, which proved fatal to a considerable extent. 407.5. Can you describe in what way? — According to a report made subse- quently by the medical gentlemen to the workhouse board, there were 40 cases of malignant cholera ; 22 out of the 40 recovered and 18 died ; and I heard also that there were .50 other cases, many of which were doubtless the same disease in its incipient form, all of which recovered ; but the governor of the workhouse caught the disease also and died, as did also one of the members of the work- house board ; and it is somewhat remarkable that at that time the cases in the town were very few as compared with those in the workhouse. 4076. Did the medical gentlemen who attended the workhouse attribute the extensively fatal effects of this disease to the want of classification and to the crowded state of the house, and want of proper ventilation ? — There is just a single paragraph which I should be glad to read to the Committee upon that point from the report of the medical gentlemen; they say, " Of the oiigin of this fatal epidemic within the walls of your establishment, we do not presume to offer an opinion ; there is no evidence of its having been introduced by contagion ; but whatever may have been its origin, its very rapid diffusion in its most aggravated form during the first few days from its commencement, is sufficiently explained by the fact of the extremely crowded state of the house at the time the disease broke out. The room where the first cases appeared, whose dimensions are under 44 square yards, contained at that time about 24 individuals ; and in four other of the principal apartments, averaging 8^ feet in height, we found 102 individuals, occupying an area of 46 I yards. The total number of persons in the house at the time the disease appeared was 253, living upon an area of 271 J square yards, and having the principal supply of external air from the areas containing only 835 1 square yards when united, and which are there surrounded by buildings and lofty walls." 4077. Then if you had had in Leeds, at the time when this malignant disease appeared there, a workhouse upon the principle of the union workhouses, the probability is that the effect would have been much less fatal ? — I really think so. 194- A 2 4078. With MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE i\/. Jofimo/i, Esq. 9 Marcb 1838. 4078. With respect to the children — you have said that you have a considerable number of children in the workhouse ; are they principally orphans and deserted children ? — Yes, mostly so. 4079. Are they well instructed as to the elementary parts of learning ; are they taught to read and write ? — Yes. 4080. Is that done by a regular master, or is it some inmate of the workhouse who is employed in that capacity ? — There is a regular master appointed. 4081. Are the girls taught to sew and to knit ? — They are. 4082. Are they taught any domestic or holisehold work? — I think they cah hardly be said to be so taught. 4083. How are the boys and girls disposed of when they come to an age to be apprenticed ? — They are generally put out as parish apprentices upon the occu- piers of premises in the township. 4084. May a parishioner either take an apprentice or not at his own option ? — He may, certainly, but in the event of his refusal, he is liable to a penalty of lOZ. 4085. Then will you explain to the Committee how you proceed when you want to place an apprentice with some tradesman or other person in the town ? -^A notice is sent to him, ini'orming him of the fact that an apprentice has been put to him, and stating also when he must attend the workhouse-board to state whether he intends to take the apprentice or not, and in the event of his refusing to take the apprentice, he is informed, of course, that he must pay the penalty, which the law has pointed ovit, 10 /. 4086. Are the parish apprentices generally awarded to Avell-established tradesmen, and to persons in easy circumstances ? — That is not exactly the crite- rion ; the occupants of premises, who may in other respects be considered generally eligible to take an apprentice, are the persons selected. If the board were of opinion, that the taking of a parish apprentice would really be injurious in a pecuniary point of view to an individual, they would not insist upon his taking one. 4087. But, in experience, are they frequently sent to persons just entering upon business, and by whom the payment of the sum of 10 /. would be felt to be oppres- sive ? — I am afraid very frequently it is the case ; in fact they are generally put upon persons rather beginning life than otherwise. 4088. How does that system operate in practice ; does it generally beget a good understanding and kindly feeling between the apprentice and the master.'' — I should say any thing but that. 4089. Are the apprentices generally well taken care of? — Not always ; the system of bringing up children in the house is such as not to create in them habits of industry and subordination and order, but I fear the contrary ; and it very frequently happens that complaints are speedily made by the master of the conduct of the child. 4090. Do the children apprenticed in this way generally turn out well when they became men and women, and when the termination of their apprenticeship arrives? — I am afraid that that is not the case; and indeed it very frequently happens that, owing to the misconduct of the child, in many cases, in a few months, in others a year, or a couple of years, or so, the overseers are obliged to take the child back into the workhouse. 4091. Do you find that families brought up in the workhouse under the old svstem continue paupers from generation to generation ? — Yes ; I have observed a good deal of that ; I have known as many as four generations receiving relief from the parish board at Leeds at one and the same time. 4092. Then the existing system is a system that encourages pauperism, and leads to its being perpetuated in families ? — Very much so. 4093. Do you know sufficiently of the new workhouse system to know whether that evil would be obviated imder the union workhouses ? — I have had no expe- rience, of course, in those matters ; but I have read, I think, all the reports of the Poor Law Commissioners, and the evidence which has been adduced, and my oj)inion is decidedly in favour of the system introduced into those establishments. 401)4. Mr. Hodf/es.'] Have you any other knowledge of the subject than what you derived from the Reports of the Poor Law Commissioners?- — -Not at all; and other evidence which I have read. 4095. Chairman.] What other evidence do you allude to? — The statements in the House of Commons, and discussions. 4096. Plave ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 5 409G. Have you read the evidence which was taken before, the Committee of M . Johnson, IL s^. theHouseofCcmmons, which sat last year?— I have. ^,.,, ^f thr^ Cnm 9 March 1838. 401)7 Then vour opinion is not merely lormed npon the Reports of the Com- y ■ missioners, but upon other evidence and circumstances -.vhich liave become noto- rious ^— I stated in my answer that that was the case. 40Q8. Mr. Hodges.] Then vou distinctly say that you have no practica know- ledge^ of the working of the new law, and tliat you have not visited any districts j where that is now in operation .? — That is the case. ..; ;,,;, 4099. And you have made no inquiries upon the spot as to the advantages or disadvantagesof the new system?—! have not. 1 t ,„,, :„ .1./ 4100. Mr. Barnes.] Have you always, at the Leeds parish board been in the habit of inquiring into the condition and habits, and the income of the families, when they applied for relief .'-The practice, up to about lour or five years ago, was this : That an applicant coming to the workhouse board had mquines made of him as to his circumstances, and relief given to him, as the result of those '"TioT'orhis own'representation?-On his own representation. The system is somewhat changed since the period I have mentioned ; we now require every applicant first to call upon the overseer of the ward in which he resides ; and it is understood that the overseer shall visit the case, and make inquiries into the circumstances. That is the theorv ; but I am afraid that the practice does not always accord with the theory, to the extent, at all events, that justice requires. 4102 But do you not think that it would be a considerable improvement upon your former practice, and even upon your present practice, it you had a relieving officer, whose business it would be to ascertain m the neighbourhood where the pauper lives, from his employer, and in other ways, such as he might avail himself of, the circumstances and situation of the party, you apportioning the relief accordingly '—A very great improvement ; and would, I think, be beneficial even to the applicant himself, supposing that the application was a proper one 4103 Will you explain a little more fullv how you think that it would be beneficial to the applicant himself? -It would arise in this way that all the knowledge of the state of the family, and the circumstances in which they are placed would be obtained, to enable the dispensers of parish relief to meet the case with satisfaction and confidence, according to the justice ot that case ; now in the absence of that information, tliere is too frequently rather an evasion of the application than meeting it as I think it ought to be met. 4104 Do you not also think that it would be a check upon mtemperance, and upon bad habits, if persons knew, when they applied for parish relief, that their conductwouldbeinvestigated?— Very greatly so. 4105 And would not the effect of that be to improve the character and con- dition of the poor by leading them to abstain from those habits which generally lead to their misfortunes and to the distress in which they are very frequently placed r— I have not the least doubt of it. , ^ 1 4106. When relief has been distributed to the pauper for a number of weeks, do vou renew your inquiries, so as to ascertain whether he remains in the same condition that'he was in when that relief was first given ?— Not exactly so ; we now give ordinarily no rehef to able-bodied paupers in money, but in employ- ment • when I say not in money, I mean as contradistinguished from the loriner syster^i of giving them money then and there ; the practice now is to employ them either in sweeping the streets or in breaking stones. 4107 Has any material saving been effected in the parish expenditure by this increased vigilance ?— I have no doubt of that in the least ; I wdl give a reason for that opinion ; I find that in January 1827, a period when the town had not recovered from the ettects of the panic of 182G, which t.-me we gave rebel m money without exacting anv labour, we had as many as 841 persons receiving casual 'relief; but in 1837, in the April quarter, we had only 46(), with about 100 persons breakimj stones, and perhaps 20 or 30 sweeping ; so that, although the population must have been greater in 1837 than in 1827, ten years after- wards, the number of persons receiving relief, under a somewhat similar pressure , of times, was considerably reduced, reduced by more than 250. 41 oS. The Committee' has been told that at Sheffield a reduction has been eflfected by a vigilant and improved administration of the poor laws, by wliich the rates have been reduced from 30,000 /. a year to 9,000/. ; has any thing ot that kind taken place at Leeds ?— No, there has not , 194. A 5 4 '^9- Can 6 MTNUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COIMMITTEE ■M. Jolinson, Esq. 4109. Can you form any estimate of what may have been the annual saving by the improved attention that has been paid to investigating the circum- 9 March 1 838. stances of the poor, and to giving them employment when they have apphed for rehef, rather than giving them relief without employment ? — I have not the least doubt that that saving would amount to several thousands during the last year. 4110. Mr. Chichester.] Have you any one to superintend the employment? — ■ We have. 411 1. With a salary ? — Yes. * 4112. Mr. Baines.] When persons apply to the Leeds Workhouse Board for relief, do you give them that relief in money or provisions ? — In money. 4113. Have you ever tried the experiment of giving it in provisions rather than in money ?— We have not tried it, but it has always appeared to me to be a very desirable thing that the plan should be adopted. 4114. Then, if under the new system that plan is adopted, you think it is an improvement upon the old system, and would tend to save the resources of the workhouse and to benefit those receiving the relief? — Veiy much so. 41 1 5. You have said that when persons apply for relief, you set them to work; by that do you mean able-bodied men ? — Yes. 4116. Do you at any time hold out to the able-bodied men when they apply, the test of the workhouse ; do you tell them that if they cannot support them- selves, they must come into the workhouse ? — We never do that, for this very sufficient reason, that we have not room for those, even, who would be disposed to go in. 4117. Then the reason why you do not apply the workhouse test is that you have not sufficient room in your workhouse to give admission to those who pro- bably might accept it ? — Exactly. 4118. You have said that you set to work persons who make appMcation ; what is the nature of the employment which you give them? — Sweeping the streets and breaking stones. 4119. Did you not say that sweeping the streets was done by the inmates of the workhouse ? — I stated that they did some little work, but to no very great extent do the able-bodied in the workhouse do that, but those out of the work- house who are sent to sweep ; we employ sometimes as many as 50 of them. 4120. Mr. Chichester.] Do you call sweeping the streets profitable labour ? — I think it may be termed profitable labour, because the workhouse board contract with the Commissioners for cleansing and lighting the town, to send them men to sweep, and we are paid a certain sum by them. 4121. Mr. Baines.] Are the persons who are employed in breaking stones paid by the piece, or are they paid by the day ?— They are paid by the day. 41 22. Then the quantity of work done by any man does not measure the reward that he receives for that work ? — No. 4123. How do you prevent persons whom you employ in that way from loiter- ing away their time ? — That is very difficult ; we do the best we can ; the super- intendent exercises the best control he can, but I am afraid to no very great practical extent. 41 24. Does he in any way measure their work ; is his superintendence merely to see that the men keep themselves employed, or does he examine what each man does, or any gang of men do, in the course of the day ? — For the last six months, there has been no check of that kind, but the wages have been 1*. a day from eight o'clock in the morning to four in the afternoon. 4125. Then you apply in this way a labour test, and the person that you em- ploy may at any time quit that labour-employ when they can find better employ- ment ? — They may. 4126. Do you give to an able-bodied man labour during the whole of the day, without regard to the number of his family, or do you regulate the time that you give him employment by the number of children that he may have in his family ? — Those things always regulate the amount of labour according to the number of children in the family, and therefore some men have three days in the week, some four days, some five and up to six. 4127. How much would an able-bodied man employed during the whole of the week earn in the course of it ? — Six shillings ; 1 s. a day. 41 28. Some of your labourers you allow to earn 3s., and some 45., 5s. and 6.S., according to the number of their families?— Yes. 4129. Who ON THE POOR LAW A:MENI)IMENT ACT. (1838.) 7 A) 2q Who regulates that ?— The workhouse board, the overseers. ^^- -^^«<1- 413b. When a person applies for relief, you tell him that he may have labour 'j^^^^^ ,3 » by going to the stone-yard, and you fix how many days' labour he is to have m the week ?— We do. . , ■ r i > v 4131. And that depending upon the number of his family ?— \es. 4132. Mr. Chichester.] Is not that very much like head-money ? — I can scarcely understand the question. , r 1 • 4133. Is it not very much like paying the man according to the number of his family ; is it not paying the wages oiit of the rates ?— It is relief according to the necessity of his case ; we do not ask him to take employment ; he makes apph- cation, and states his case to be necessitous, and we apportion relief as fairly as we can, according to his wants. 4134. Mv.Scrope.] Does it not differ from head-money in this way, that m what is usually termed head-money employment is not given on account of the parish or the public, but the labourer is left to work with some private employer, and has whatever wages he may thereby obtain made up by the parish ?— I should think that is the difference, a very essential difference. 4135. Mr. Chichester.] But it has no reference to the amount of work, but to the number of his family ? — It has reference to the amount of work also ; if a man has a small family, we give him three days a week ; and, therefore, his remuneration is proportioned to the extent of labour performed by him. 4136. Mv.Baines.] And you do not give any man a day's wages without a dav'swork? — No. 4137. And for that day's work you do not give him money, unless he does something like the work of a day ; and that labour is rendered profitable to you, by your selling the stones when they are broken for a higher price than you give for them when they are unbroken ? — Yes. 4138. Mr, Scrope.] Do you find that persons employed in this way hang upon you, or that you have any 'difiiculty in getting rid of them; are they ready to take work if they can meet with it of a difierent character ?— Yes, very ready. 4139. Both those who have large families and those who have none, or very small ? — Yes. 4140. You do not think, therefore, that it acts as a premium upon impro- vidence or idleness?— I cannot conceive that that can be the case, because, if they can obtain regular employment, the wages in Leeds will, upon an average of the lower kind of employment, perhaps amount to.lS.t. ; there are many who do not earn more than 12s. ; but I should say the average of the lower wages will be about 15 s. a week ; and many of the men employed upon the stone-heap, if they were in their regular employment, would earn a guinea and upwards a week. 4141. What is the utmost you allow him to earn at the stone heap ? — Six shillings. . 4142. Does the man with a large family maintain his family upon the bs. ; does he obtain nothing else?— In most cases it is so ; we do not reckon to main- tain the family ; we think it right that he should fall back upon the credit that he may have established in the hope of the future. • ^ 4143. You give him nothing else in addition to his 6s. ?— Except in some extreme cases, we do not. 4144. What is the character of those extreme cases ?— Suppose that a man with a family of five or six children should have some of the members of the family ill, and requiring more support, in that case there is an addition made in money ; but those are'the exceptions, not the rule. 4145. Do you think that that kind of employment operates as a test of the real destitution of the appUcant to the same extent that admission into the work- house would ? — No. 4146. Do you think that the workhouse would be a stricter test, and therefore more valuable in getting rid of those who ought not to be applicants for parish relief ?—Certainlv I do. 4147. Would you think that it was, on that account, too great a hardship to inflict upon that class of persons ? — I do not. 4148. You would prefer the workhouse test?— I should; at the same time, I do think that in a manufacturing population like Leeds some discretion ought to be vested in the board of guardians (supposing one was estabUshed) in reference to that test ; I think that in the majority of cases the workhouse test would be 194. A 4 the 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE M.Johnsun, Esq. the best; but there would be exceptions, I am persuaded, in such a population ■ as ours, where it might very safely be departed from. 9 March 1838. 4140. Do I imderstand you to say, that you think that discretion for making exceptions should be constantly and continually vested in the guardians, and should be employed by them in ordinary times in occasional instances, or should be resorted to only in great emergencies, such as complete stagnation of the trade of the district ? — I should say only in the latter case. 4150. Mr. Baines.^ In times of great distress from failure of trade, have you not a number of persons frequently thrown out of employment, even to the amount of hundreds ? — Yes, many hundreds. 41.51. In such cases you would not be able, you apprehend, to apply the work- house test ? — Certainly not ; I have no doubt that during the late failure of em- ployment there were as many, probably, as 500 heads of families applicants, and, multiply that only by four, it would give 2,000 persons to be admitted into the workhouse, supposing that that was the only test. 4152. And therefore j^ou think it will be necessary, in the manufacturing dis- tricts, that there should be both the workhouse test and the labour test in times like those?— I do. 4153. And that the board of guardians should always have the opportunity, when those cases occur, of so employing their poor, if they wish it ? — That is my decided opinion. j '' 4154. Is it your opinion that there should not be relief at any time given to able-bodied men without submitting them to one or other of those tests ? — It is. ■ 41.55. You have lately, I believe, had a subscription at Leeds, to a considerable amount, for the purpose of relieving the unemployed poor? — We have. 4156. In what way was that fund expended ? — In providing labour ; and it was disbursed only to persons on performing a certain quantity of labour. 41.57. It was not given away, then, without requiring labour, to any of the persons who might be in distress ? — It was not. 4158. Were the persons employed those that had a settlement in your parish, or were they persons that might be in distress, whether they had a settlement there or not ? — They were taken indiscriminately, without any reference to settle- ment. 41,5;). And whenever they were in distress, that relief was afforded? — -Yes; that was the only criterion, their distress. 4160. Do not inexperienced people frequently come into the office of overseers with you under the present system ?— They do. 4161. And when those inexperienced people have to administer the law, do they generally do it for the advantage of the parish ? — Very greatly for the dis- advantage of the parish. 4162. Then if there was a system by which you could secure the assistance of experienced persons, you think the parish would be benefited by it ? — Very much. 4 1 0.3. Wliat class of persons are generally overseers with you? — Persons in the better class ; shopkeepers and merchants, and persons of that description. 41 64. Is not that found to be an inconvenience to persons in that situation ? — A very great inconvenience to the majority. 416.5. And would you, therefore, prefer that the system should be a system of guardians, where persons could be selected who are not encumbered with busi- ness ? — I should think it would be a very superior system to the present. 41 66. And that the management of the poor would be better conducted in their hands ? — Very much better. 416)7. According to your observation, has the change in the law with respect to bastardy produced an increase or a decrease of the number of bastard children ? — I have been at some little pains to obtain some information upon that point, and taking two years prior to the passing of the present Poor Law Amendment Act, I find that the number of orders taken out in the township of Leeds during those two years was 146, and in the two years immediately subsequent they amounted to 57, and therefore there were fewer orders by 89. 41 ()8. Chairmmi.] That would be no measure of the number of bastards? — No ; I was going on to remark, that the number of illegitimate children cannot be deduced from that circumstance ; but I have the baptisms at the paiish church during the same periods ; in the two vears previously to the passing of the Act, tllG ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (183B.) 9 the number of baptisms was 141, and in the two years afterwards it was 144, M. Johmun, Ei'{. making an increase of three during the two years. 41 Cj). Mr. Buines.] There v/as an attempt made to establish a new poor law 9 March 1838. in Leeds, by the election of a board of guardians, was there not ? — There was. 4170. Did that succeed ? — It did not. 4171. To what cause do you attribute its failure? — To the machinery, if I may so speak, of the election. The difficulty under the present mode of electing boards of guardians, as applicable to a town like Leeds, is very great. The law requires that the voting papers shall be delivered at the house of each voter, and that they should be collected also from them, when they have filled them up, after a certain time. Now in a population like Leeds, the inhabitants are fretjuently changing their residences, especially among the poorer classes, and therefore when you go, for instance, to No. 1 in such a street, in the expectation of finding A. B., he has gene, and C. D. lives there : the voting paper therefore is not filled up by A. B., and he has not an ojjportunity of voting, dnd it was on that ground, and the difficulty of collecting them also in time, that the election was vitiated ; there were complaints tliat so many persons had not voted, that the election was set aside. 4172. Have you any suggestion to offer as to the way of remedjdng this evil ? - — ^Yes, I am of opinion that tlie election would be best and most satisfactorily conducted in the way that the municipal elections are conducted, taking, for instance, the separate wards of the town, and the overseer or some other person might be made the returning officer, and parties wishing to vote upon the occa- sion would have an opportunity of doing so ; a system of that kind would very much prevent parties influencing elections. 4173. Have you formed any opinion as to the extent of unions, whether, in large manufacturing towns like Leeds, it would be better that they should be confined to the township, or that they should extend beyond the township ? — Judging from the experience which 12 years' intimate connexion with the paro- chial affairs of Leeds has given me, I am of opinion tliat the population of Leeds is quite as large for all practical purposes as can be well brought together for this purpose ; I think, for instance, that the whole borough of Leeds, which comprises about 12 townships, would be far too large to administer the law with advantage to all the parties concerned ; my opinion is that the township of Leeds, which has a population of from 90,000 to 100,000 persons, is quite as much as could be managed by one board of guardians. 4174. Mr. Miles.] What is the extent of the population of the other town- ships?— From 50,000 to 60,000 additional. 4175. Are the different townships spread over a large district of country ?*— The greatest distance is about five or six miles. 4176. Mr. Baines.] You have said that the election should be under the sys- tem of nmnicipal elections ; you did not mean other than that the election should be by wards, not at all as affecting the franchise in any way ? — Not at all ; I mean simply with reference to the machinery of conducting the election. 4177. Do you think that it would materially facilitate the introduction of the new law into manufacturing towns, by a report being made from this Committee, and that the persons who are to carrj^ it into effect would act with more confi- dence when the report is made than they are likely to do before this Conmiittee has come to a decision upon it ? — I am decidedly of that opinion ; in fact there is a general feeling of that nature ; there is an expectation that measures will not be adopted until the report of this Committee has been presented ; that is the general understanding in Leeds. 4178. Then, on the wliole, is it your opinion, having had a great deal of experi- ence in parochial matters, that it would be desirable to introduce the new Poor Law into the manufacturing districts of the north? — It is my decided opinion that that would be the case. 41 7(^). Will you state why you think it would be an improvement upon the present system? — In the first place, I think that there would be a considerable reduction in the amount of poor-rate ; but I should not think that an advantage, if it was attained at the expense of the comforts of the really necessitous poor ; but the system which is connected with the Poor Law Amendment Act is that which I think would reidly be beneficial to the deserving poor ; there would be a better and closer and more correct knowledge of their state and circumstances, and their cases would be met more justly and adequately ; and, on the other '04- B hand, 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE M. Johnson, Esq. hand, a considerable number of persons who are paupers, from generation to generation, would be brought under such a system as must, I think, inevitably lead to the introduction of better habits, industrious, sober and proper habits. 4180. Then am I to understand that you think it would be more advan- tageous, both for the rate-payers and the rate-receivers ? — Yes. 9 March 1838. Alfred Power, Esq., again called in ; and further Examined. Alfred Potver, Esci. 4181. Mr. Wcikley.] WHEN you first began to act as an Assistant Poor Law Commissioner, what did you find to be the chief defects in the system w^hich had been in operation immediately preceding that period, with regard to the adminis- tration of medical relief ? — I think the chief evils attending the administration of medical relief arose out of the peculiar nature of the contract that was made between the overseers of the parishes and the medical men ; the form of contract universally prevailing (where there was any contract, and that, I think, in the district with which I was first connected was universally the case,) was of this nature, that a certain salary was fixed between the medical man and the parish, and that being fixed at the beginning of the year, the parish, under that contract, could send to a medical practitioner any cases of sickness that might arise during the period of the contract ; the salary therefore being a fixed amount, and the liability of the medical man being indefinite by that contract, there was a tendency on the part both of the rate-payers and of the poor to extend the , liabilities ; the poor considered that there was a fixed sum to be paid for the relief of the poor, and that it would cost the parish nothing to obtain an order upon a medical man ; and the rate-payers regarded it in the same point of view. As respects the medical man, he would, in the first instance, feel aggrieved if undue advantage were taken of the contract ; but in the long run I think he had an apparent interest, which led him not to make objections to that course, which would perhaps have had the effect of stopping it ; there was the possibility of another person taking the contract ; there was a difficulty in collecting the bills from the poorer customers ; there was the possibility that persons who did not obtain orders for medical rehef would resort to some other practitioner. 4182. Will you name the counties in which this practice prevailed? — The counties that I am alluding to are Essex, Cambridgeshire, and that part of Hert- fordshire wliich I had the superintendence of in the first instance. 41 S3. Did you hear any complaint from the poor relative to that system? — No, I heard no complaint from the poor ; I heard complaints made on behalf of the poor, in various quarters, that they were not properly attended to, very fre- quently, under those contracts ; as to complaints on the part of the poor, one 11" would not, in the course of ones official duty, be brought into contact with the poor themselves, except in witnessing the administration of relief at the boards of guardians. 4184. But, from what you heard and what you saw, you were induced to believe that a better system could be established for furnishing medical rehef to the poor than then existed ? — Yes, I received that impression. 4185. Before you became an Assistant-commissioner, had you had any expe- rience in those matters ? —No experience, I should say. 4186. No experience in medical matters at all? — No. 4187. Had you ever served any office in any parish, or been connected in any way with the parochial government ? — No, I had not. 4188. Then in consequence of what you discovered and ascertained, you were induced, on the 1 1th of Februaiy 1836, to address a letter to the boards of guar- dians, wiiich I find inserted at page 272 of the Second Annual Report of the Poor Law Commissioners ? — I was. [The letter is as follows :] Gentlemen, — As the termination of the present parochial year is fast approaching, I think it right to address you on the subject of the future arrangements for afl'ording medical rehef within the several parishes of your union. The division of the whole union into a proper number of districts, each to be under the care of one medical otticer, is a subject which has, in all probability, already occupied your attention. Upon the nature of the contract to be made with each of those medical officers, I am prepared to make the follow- ing spccilic recommendation, which has been laid before the Poor Law Commissioners, and ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) ii and has received their decided approbation. Inwnediate advertisement should be made, if /l,fredPuwer,Eia. necessary, tor candidates to offer themselves, containing an exact description of the districts, and referrino; to the clerk of the union for a view of the several contracts. It is proposed „ i\]arch 18^8 that the entire contract should be in the nature of what is called a sick club, or medical club, an institution confined to medical assistance alone, to which all persons contributing regularly, during health and sickness, a small annual sum, may insure themselves against the risk of incurring professional bills to an unlimited amoimt. The first branch of the contract will refer to a schedule, containing the names of all those individuals residing in the district on whose behalf the guardians think proper to subscribe from the funds of the several parishes to which the parties so subscribed for respectively belong. The medical oliicer will be required to give medical attendance and medicines, and appliances of every description, to all persons named in this schedule (which may be called "The Pauper Schedule"), by order of the relieving officer or overseers of the respective parishes; the guardians to have the privilege of adding any name they may think proper during the period of contract. The second branch of the contract will bind the medical officer to admit, as subscribers to the medical club, all persons of the labouring class who shall, on or before a certain day (say the ■25th March), tender their names, at a certain rate per head or family, tor one year ; after that day, it will be at the option of the medical officer to admit any per- sons proposing themselves as subscribers, on such terms as may be agreed upon between the parties. There does not appear to be any reason why the rate per head of the indepen- dent subscribers, tendering their names by the appointed time, should vary from the rate per head of the persons named on the pauper schedule. There will, however, exist a difference, before alluded to, between the two branches of the contract, namely, that the guardians expressly reserve to themselves the privileae of adding any name to the pauper schedule at any time during the period of contract, paying only at the same rate per head as for those originally included. This provision will afford the opportunity of inserting the in- mates of any workhouse which may be in any district in the pauper schedule for that district, instead of having a separate contract for the establishment, and will be attended with other advantages, which recommend it as an indispensable part of the arrangement. The above pro- position is founded on two assumptions of fact, which are considered to be sufficiently esta- blished by experience ; 1st, that where the opportunity has been offered to the labouring class of subscribing to any institution of the kind proposed, they have shown themselves extremely ready to come forward as subscribers ; and it is hoped that a very large class, now dependent on the parish only for medical assistance, may be induced to exert themselves, and become independent of the parish in this respect also. On this point it will be proper to remark, that where the proper pauper schedule has been determined on by the board, or a committee appointed for that purpose, every possible means should be taken, by printing and circulating the schedule, that those omitted from that list are by that circumstance called on to sub- scribe to the independent branch of the club, and that otherwise they will incur the danger of running up a doctor's bill. The assistance of the guardians representing each parish, and that of the resident clergymen, may be calculated on as affording the most effective co-operation in obtaining independent subscribers to the club. 2dly. It has been also established by experience, that where a club of this description is organized on a large scale, a very small rate of subscription will be found to produce a satisfactory result to the medical man, such a rate of subset iption, indeed, as, even in districts most pauperized, and where the lowest wages are paid for labour, will form a very trifling deduction from the yearly earnings of the labouring man. The exact terms of subscription will depend, to a certain extent, on local circumstances; but I would recommend the board of guardians by all means to fix the rate of subscription themselves in the first instance, and advertise the contract for the competition of candidates on the specific terms. Should this mode of proceeding happen to fail of its object in any way, resort might next be had to the system of contract by open tender. It is suggested by some who have given this subject a practical consideration, that under no circumstances and in no locality, the terms of aimual stibscrip- tion ought to exceed the rates respectively fixed in the following scale : s. d For an individual maintaining himself or herself - 3 - per annum. For a man and his wife ____ .^_ ^^ For each child in the family, (and if one be subscribed for, all must^ --.-_. __6 „ And for every person in the same family above the age of 16 --------o_ It has been suggested that the general contract ought not to include midwifery cases ; this may be made the subject of a separate arrangement, involving a rate of subscription applicable to married females alone. I have adopted this mode of submitting the above proposition for your consideration and adoption, hoping that I may shortly have the oppor- tunity of discussing with you personally its general bearing and practical application to the circumstances of your union, or of conferring with you on the comparative advantages of any other plan which you may feel disposed to adopt, I am, &,c. Alfred Poicer, Assistant Poor Law Commissioner. '94- B 2 41 8q. In 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Alfred l'v ] WITNESSES. James Phillips Kay, Esq., m. d., - - - p. i JVilUam Richard Dickins - - - - p. 31 [ 1 1 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Martis, IS" die Martii, 1838. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Baincs. Mr. Bolliiis- Mr. Chichester. Mr. Estcourt. Mr. Fielden. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Hods-es. Mr. Liddell. Mr. Miles. Lord J. Russell. Mr. Scrope. Mr. Slaney. Mr. Wakley. MR. FAZAKERLEY in the Chair. years ? James Phillips Kay, Esq., m.d., called in ; and Examined. 43S5. Chairman.'] YOU are an Assistant Poor Law Commissioner? — I am. 4386. How long have you acted in that capacity ? — Since July 1835. 4387. What is the district which you have now under your superintendence ? — • Norfolk and Suffolk. 4388. How long have you been there ? — I went into Suffolk in August 1835 ; and I succeeded Sir Edward Parry, in Norfolk, at the end of February 1836. 4389. Then you have had the superintendence of the district for about two I have. 4390. Have you paid great attention to the education of children who may be placed in the workhouses of the different unions? — As early as the claims of other duties connected with the formation of unions, the building of workhouses, and the general administration of relief, would permit me to abstract my attention from .such duties, I made it a matter of primary importance to observe what was the nature of the education given to the children who were more permanently main- tained in the work-houses. I found great deficiencies in the arrangements that had been adopted by the different boards of guardians, principally in consequence of other duties which they had to perform ; and I applied myself to improve the dis- cipline of the schools. 439 1 . What is the population of the unions that you superintend ? — I think the entire population of the district may be 580,000 ; but I do not speak with absolute certainty ; the population of the unions which are now in operation, and have efficient workhouses, is about 540,000. 4392. In those unions do you know the number of children that are in the workhouses, or that were in the workhouses in any particular period that you can speak to ? — 'In the month of December 1837 the number of children that were in the workhouses of 35 unions, in which the workhouse arrangements Mere then completed, was 483 boys between nine and sixteen ; 420 girls between nine and sixteen ; 547 boys between two and nine ; and 450' girls between two and nine ; making 1,90G children between two and sixteen, who were at that time maintained and educated in 35 union workhouses in Norfolk and Suffolk. 4393- Can you describe those children so as to inform the Committee to what classes they belonged ; whether they were bastard or orphan children, or children of able-bodied labourers.?— I thought it very important to ascertain how many of those children were likely to be more permanently maintained in the workhouses ; because it is evident that the residence of an able-bodied labourer in the work- house is transient, and that the education provided for his child is not by any means a matter of such great importance as the education of the children who were more permanently maintained in the workliouse ; and with a view to obtain accurate 202. A informatiou •J. P. Kut/, E«q- M. D. 13 March 1838. 13 March 1838. 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. P. Kiuj, Ksq. information upon this subject, I issued a circular on the 9th of December 1837, to '"■°' the masters of workhouses, requesting that they would return to me the number of bastards, orphaus, children deserted by their fathers, children deserted by father and mother, children of men undergoing punishment for crime, children of persons depending upon parochial aid on account of mental or bodily infirmity, children of able-bodied widows resident in the imion workhouses, children of able- bodied widowers resident in the union workhouses, and children belonging to large families of able-bodied labourers, admitted into the workhouses as a relief to their parents — those being the classes Avhich it was probable would be more permanently resident than the children of able-bodied labourers. I found the numbers in that week to be 443 bastards, 382 orphans, 279 children deserted by their fathers, 54 children deserted by father and mother, 171 children of men undergoing punish- ment for crime, 1 1 G children of persons dependent upon parochial aid on account of mental or bodily infirmity, 144 children of able-bodied widows resident in the workhouses, 3t3 children of able-bodied Avidowers resident in the Avorkhouses, and 122 children belonging to large families of able-bodied labourers, admitted into the workhouses as a relief to their jmrents ; making a total of 1,847 children in 35 unions, who might be expected to be more permanently maintained in the work- houses than the children of able-bodied labourers. 4394. Of what ages were the children ? — Of all ages between two and sixteen ; besides those there were 259 infants too young for instruction, and about 60 chil- dren of able-bodied parents, who were resident in the workhouse at that time. If the Committee desire it, I will give in the table. [The Witness delivered in the same. — Vide Appendix (A.)] 4395. With respect to the 122 whom you describe as the children of the able-bodied, their parents were not resident in the workhouse r — They were not. 4396. The children were taken into the workhouse as a relief to the able-bodied labourers? — They were, during a certain period of transition. In Norfolk and Suffolk, we first permitted the out-door allowances to large families of labour- ers to continue ; and, as another step of advance, we have adopted the system of taking in certain children from large families of labourers, intending that to be employed as an expedient of more easily getting over a certain state of transition, until we could adopt the absolute rule of relieving the labourer, by taking the whole family into the workhouse. 4397. Of those classes of children, some remain a much longer time in the workhouse than others, do they not ? — Certainly. In order to ascertain the periods which those several classes of children remain in the workhouse, I issued another circular to the masters of the workhouses, requesting to be informed what number of children of both sexes, between the ages of two and sixteen, had been in the workhouse less than a fortnight. I found they Avere 193, in the week ending the 3d of January 1838. The number Avho had been in more than a fortnight, and less than a month, Avere 223 ; the number that had been in one month, and less than three, Avere 548 ; the number that had been in three months, and less than six, Avere 307 ; the number more than six months, and less than a year, 275 ; the number more than a year 474 ; but I must be permitted to remark in explanation of this table, that it cannot be supposed to indicate Avhat Avould occur after the imions have been in operation for a series of years, because to various of those classes of children the workhouse had only been recently offered as a means of relief, and they had entered the Avorkhouse only during the last summer ; the number of children who had been maintained in the workhouses previously to last summer has been very considerably less ; and as the boards of guardians gradually advanced in their application of the workhouse test to various classes of paupers, such classes as bastards, and orphans, and others, Avere admitted who had been previously in the receipt of out-door relief, so that I apprehend, after a certain period has elapsed, it will be found that the children described in these tables ■would remain much longer in the workhouse than is indicated in the table which I noAv present to the Committee. [The Witness delivered in the same. — F?c?(? Appendix (B.)] .t 4308. There are 474 in that table Avho have been in the AVorkhouse more than a year; to Avhat class of children do they belong ?— I have no doubt that they were ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 3 ■were bastards, or orplians, or children deserted by their parents, or children of j. P. K„y.h<(i. persons dependent on ])arochial aid on account of bodily or mental infirmity. ^ "• 439a. Children who have been deserted by their parents, or orphans, or bastards, ^- j — wouhl be likely to continue to be dependent upon the parish for their mainten- '3 ^ -"f 1 » 3 • ance, and to remain in the workhouse until such a period as they were able to gain their livelihood out of doors? — Certainly; it appears to me that in all cases in which cliildren are deprived of the guardianship of their parents by physical or legal disabilities, or by death, they must continue dependent on the parish till they are enabled, by their own exertions, to obtain their own livelihood. 4400. At what period should you say, that generally they might be sent out from the workhouse and be able to earn their own livelihood ?— In the case of girls, I think, from the age of 14 to IG they would be admitted into domestic service; and the boys from 14 to 16 into farming occupations, or as servants in various branches of trade, and would find employment and wages sufficient to maintain them. 4401. Would children in those cases, who had no parents and no home, be able to maintain themselves by independent employment so soon as the children who have a home, and who might, by degrees, acquire the habit of employing them- selves in different branches of industry ? — Tliat woukl especially occur if there were no expedient in the workhouse for the industrial training of the children ; and I may be permitted to explain in what respect I conceive the condition of the child who is maintained and educated in the workhouse would diiler irom the child of an independent labourer, provided no expedient were adopted for teaching him such trades as would enable him to provide an independent livelihood. A child out of doors, a boy, is initiated into the various occupations of industry ; he accompanies his father to the field, and performs a great variety of work, and so, by degrees, he takes his station in the employment of the district. A girl, in the same way, acquires a knowledge of domestic economy ; and it is plain, that unless some expedients were adopted within the union workhouses, not merely to give the children skill (in the case of girls in domestic occupations, and in the case of boys in various trades and employments, which are connected with their probable destiny in life), they would, in the first place, not have the habits of industry, and, in the second place, they would not have the skill Avhich would recommend them to emplo}inent and enable them to earn their livelihood. 4402. In order to enable those children to earn their livelihood, and to fit them for occupying the different stations of life to which they may be called, whether boys or girls, do you think it desirable that some general and good scheme of educa- tion should be introduced into the workhouses ? — Certainly I do ; and I think that the workhouse schools, as they are at present managed, present many formidable difficulties for conducting the religious education, the moral and the industrial training of the children, and the impartation of a sufficient amount of secular knowledge, suitable to their station in life, which might be overcome, probably, by other and better an-angements than those which at present exist in the work- houses. 4403. Are you acquainted with what was the system of education, or whether there was any system, in the old j^arish poor-houses or workhouses before this new law was introduced ? — The parish poor-houses were, for the most part (and I think that the exceptions were so rare that they may scarcely be accounted to have existed), scenes of the utmost iniquity and disorder ; the children, infants as well as those of more advanced age, adult paupers, often of the very worst character, dissolute women, and the aged and infirm, were all in the same apart- ment, in the parochial A\orkhouses ; there was no workhouse dress ; they m ere living there generally in filth and idleness, the children contracting the habits of paupers — being contaminated with the vicious dispositions of the persons with ■whom they came in contact. There was no schoolmaster at all, and I think the inevitable consequence of a child being trained in such a situation was, that he must become, for a time, and probably for a very long period of his life, dependent upon the rate-payers. AV'hen M'e have emptied the j^arochial Morkhouses, and brought the children and other paupers to the union workhouses, we have ' generally found that the children were infested m ith vermin, often covered with the itch ; and very recently it occurred to me to inquire from one of the Scotch teachers, who has been introduced into Norfolk, in what condition some of the children who had been brought from the parochial workhouse to the uuioij :20-2. A 2 "workhousa 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. P. Kay, Esq. woi'khouse were found, and he told me language could not describe his astonish- M. D. nient at the brutish ignorance of the children, and at their vicious and disorderly — ' — ■ ^ manners ; he said the only knowledge they had was how to pull up twitch grass, 13 March 1838^ ^^^^ j^^^^ ^^ ^.pp ^^^ ^g^j] turnips ; but that beyond that they had not a single idea ; and no child in the school knew his letters. i 4404. They had, in fact, received no sort of education, whether in letters or a Ij general training in habits of industry ? — Certainly. 4405. AVhat is the state of things in the schools which have been established in the workhouses ? — I must first inform the Committee, that we have en- countered very formidable difficulties in attempting to improve the workhouse schools ; it has been found extremely difficult to procure eligible teachers ; appli- cations have been made to some of the London schools, for example, the Central National School at Westminster, and other schools, and very great difficulty indeed has been experienced in procuring teachers from those schools; so that, in the first instance, in many of the workhouses we have been obliged to be content, ■for a time, with the services of provincial teachers ; we have endeavoured to give tliem a larger amount of skill, by sending them, especially, to the industrial schools in the neighbourhood of London ; I refer to the schools of the Children's Friend Society at Hackney- Wick, where boys are instructed, and at Chiswick, where girls are taught industrial occupations, or to the school of Lady Noel Byron at Ealing, where similar pursuits are followed ; and also peculiar care has been bestowed upon one or two of the schools in Suffolk, with a view to render them model schools, in which the schoolmasters of other workhouses might receive instruction, particularly in the industrial processes that are employed, and so, by degrees, even with the assistance of the provincial teachers, many of the schools have been improved; but, I felt that as the greater part of those teachers have not had a sufficiently long training in any of the more correct methods of instruction which are pursued in the model schools, that it was very desir- able to introduce into the district some teachers who had received a complete training in schools, the success of which was acknowledged, and for that purpose one of my colleagues, Mr. Tufnell, and myself, visited Scotland last summer, for the purpose of becoming acquainted with the methods of instruction that are pursued in the sessional schools of the Church of Scotland, in Edinburgh, and the Glasgow Normal Seminary, which is also conducted under the sanction of the Church of Scotland ; since that period six teachers have been engaged for different unions in Norfolk and Suffolk, and three have been employed in organizing the diflferent schools throughout the country, so that many of the schools are cer- tainly very superior to those which I was acquainted with in the incorporations. 4406. In those schools what have you been able to do, with respect to training the children in habits of industry ? — As education is chiefly to be regarded by the Poor Law Commissioners as the means of avoiding the ultimate dependence upon the rate-payers of the children, great attention has been paid to the industrial train- ing of the children; I could not select a better example of what is done in the indus- trial training of children, than is afforded by the school in Barham workhouse, in Suffolk, belonging to the Bosmere and Claydon Union ; the girls in that union work- house are instructed, not merely in knitting and sewing, which is the common indus- trial instruction of schools, but they are also taught to cut out the clothes of the paupers in the workhouse ; they scour their rooms and make their beds ; they wasli their own linen and the boys', iron it and make it up ; and the board of guardians are about to make arrangements to have the whole cooking of the establishment con- ducted by the girls, under the superintendence of a reputable and discreet female in the kitchen ; and those employments of the girls are now becoming connnon in the workhouse schools throughout my district ; the boys have also been engaged in l)reaking up a piece of ground outside the workhouse, which is, as soon as it is prepared, to be allotted to them in gardens, which they daily cultivate, whenever the weather Mill permit, for two or three hours ; the master is provided with books on gardening (tlie schoolmistress is to be provided with books on frugal cookery), and it will be his duty to instruct the boys in gardening, as a branch of industry more allied to industry than any thing that we can well select connected with workhouse discipline ; the Ijoys have also been employed in making and mending the clothes of the workhouse", in making the shoes of the workhouse, in rough carpentering -work, for they have made the barrows which they use in their gardening ; they have also been employed in basket-making, mat-making, platting straw hats, and other ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 5 other occupations of a .similar kind, wliicli have a two-fold object, one to give them J. P. Kuv, Esq. skill in such a branch of industry as may enable them to obtain employment, and "'-^ to support themselves by their own exertions in after life, and the other for the purpose of enabling them, without the expenditure of their earnings, to contribute '3 ' ^'"'^ ^ 3 • to the comfort of their own households simply by their skill, as, for example, in doing any rough wood-work about their cottage, putting up a shelf or making a box, or such other things as those. 4407. In those respects you probably have made a great advance in education, as compared with the system which prevailed in the former poor-houses and work- Jiouses ?--- 1 do not know any single workliouses of the incorporations in which any thing was done beyond teaching the children to weave sacking, to spin thread or worsted, or some occupation of that kind, -which wfj^ more suited to a manufactur- ing district ; but nothing has been done, so far as I can perceive, in the old work- houses, to train the children in labour connected with the pursuits of husbandry. 4408. This system of education, which you say you have succeeded in intro- ducing in some of the unions under your superintendence, appears to meet nearly all the objects which one would propose to oneself in educating children so circumstanced ; still you say in the workhouses you met with impediments Mhich •would prevent your accomplishing the system of education which you think the best ; be so good as to describe the nature of the impediments ? — Those imjiedi- inents are encountered in a very great degree in the other departments of the education which is given to the children, in the religious instruction, the moral training, and in the discipline of the school, and in the methods that are pursued in giving them secular knowledge suited to their station in life. In all those forms of instruction we find great difficulties arising, first, from the want of a sufficient number of children in each workhouse to provide the classification that is neces- sary to success in a school. Then, secondly, it is very difficult, in the best regu- lated workhouse, to prevent a certain amount of association between the children and the adult paupers, many of whom are not persons whom it would be desirable to place as models for the imitation of children. There is a good deal of inter- ruption to the discipline of a school, also, from the admission of children belonging to able-bodied labourers, whose residence in the house is commonly very transient. I think also that educating children in a workhouse, and not in a school separately from tlie workhouse, is objectionable, on this ground, that the child comes, by association with what is occurring within the workhouse, to deem itself in some sort a pauper, and as the child's dependence upon the rate-paj'ers is in no respect a consequence of its improvidence, or of any other circumstance which usually produces the dependence of paupers, it appears to me that it should not encounter any risk of losing its self-respect, which will probably be one of the surest guarantees for independence of character in after life. There is also a very great difficulty in the workhouse schools, as at present conducted, in supplying a sufii- cient number of well-qualified teachers, and in inducing them, from the present aniount of remuneration that can be given in the unions, to reside in the work- house, to conform to all the disci|)line, and to disregard the opportunities which are afforded them of bettering their condition by becoming schoolmasters in some other departments out of the workhouse. All these difficulties, I think, will be found to present formidable obstacles to the success of schools as at present conducted in the union workhouses. 4409. Is there not some difficulty also in providing sufficient space for the children, whether for their occupation within doors or without doors ? — To most of the workhouses in Norfolk and Suftblk we have attached a certain portion of lalid ; the children are out in the garden during three or four hours daily ; that difliculty might, I think, generally be obviated, because I never found any reluc- tance in any board of guardians to do whatever was necessary with reference to tlie industrial training of the children ; I should much rather that the treatment of tlie children was ditlerent from that which it necessarily is at present in connex- ion with tlie ordinary discipline of the workhouse, and I should very much rather that they lived in a school than that they lived in a workhouse. 4410. Finding that the arrangements within the workhouse cannot be made in a manner that is perfectly satisfactory, what would you propose as the best mode in wliich those children should be provided for and educated? — I think if the unions were combined for the purpose of supporting county schools, that a much more efficient system of instruction and training might be adopted in those county schools, and at considerably less exjiense to the unions than the instruction which 202. A3 is G mNUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE /. P. Kay. Esq. is now given in the workhouse is maintained ; for in connexion with that subject, M. D. I made some calculations, founded upon the experience which I had of what has been done in the workhouse schools in Norfolk and Suffolk, which, with the per- 13 March 1838. ^lission of the Committee, I will state: I found that it was almost impossible to obtain a skilful schoolmaster and schoolmistress for a lower salary than 35 /. or 40/. for a schoolmaster, and 20/. for a schoolmistress, besides their maintenance, and the provision of a separate apartment in the workhouse, and the furniture for that apartment. When the whole arrangements in Norfolk and Suffolk arc com- pleted, there will be 39 unions, and the cost of the salaries for the schoolmasters and schoolmistresses in the workhouses of those unions would be, for 39 school- masters, at 35/. per annum, 1,365/.; for 39 schoolmistresses, at 20/. per annum, 780 /. ; for the maintenance of the schoolmasters, 608/. 8 s. ; for the maintenance of the schoolmistresses, 608/. Ss., giving a total of 3,361/. 16s.; besides some outlay which must be encountered for either the wages or the maintenance of shoe- makers and tailors, who are employed in assisting the schoolmasters, and are either maintained in the workhouse upon the ordinary rations, at the cost of 7/. 16s. per annum, or would receive wages to a larger amount ; besides those expenses, there must be a very considerable outlay in each school for Bibles, Testaments, lesson-books, apparatus for gardening and various other tools, and for fitting up a separate wash-house and laundry for the girls, and for fitting up the schoolmasters' and schoolmistresses' apartments, which outlay I calculate would amount to about 4,700/. more for the fitting up of the several schools. If in Norfolk and Suffolk, four county schools were provided and much larger salaries were given, and a more expensive maintenance also permitted to the schoolmasters and schoolmistresses, the following scale of salaries would provide a clear saving of 2,000/. a year in the expenditure of the unions of those two counties ; namely, four schools containing 400 or 500 children each ; for those four schools, four ])rincipal sehoohnasters with their wives, and four principal schoolmistresses at a salary of 120/. per annum, making 480/. ; the maintenance of those 208/. per annum, the very highest amount that could be anticipated ; four assistant schoolmasters and four assistant school- mistresses 240/. per annum, the salaries being 60/. for a couple, the maintenance 208 /. per annum ; then supposing there were in those schools four tailors, at wages of 10s. per week, with their maintenance also, the expense would be 156/. 45.; shoemakers at the same wages and maintenance, 156/. 4s. ; laundresses at the same wages and maintenance, 112/., making a total of 1,560/. ; I suppose also that there would be four chaplains with 60/. per annum each, 240/. ; making 1800/. as the total annual expense for the salaries and maintenance of schoolmasters and schoolmistresses in the four county schools, which would be a saving of 2,000/. per annum. 4411. Which saving would go towards any expense that might be incurred by building and fitting up those four county schools which you would propose? — Yes. 441 2. It being your opinion, that a very good system of education cannot be contrived or permanently carried on in the existing workhouses, and proposing as you do, the substitution of county schools, what is the character of education which you would provide for the children ? — I think that great attention ought to be paid to the religious instruction, to the moral training, of the children ; that they ought to be carefully trained in industry, in the manner which I have attempted to describe, and that, as they are cut off from the ordinary sources of secular knowledge which are open to the labourer's child, there should be more attention paid to the means of giving them secular knowledge suited to their station in life than is commonly given in the parochial schools of the country. 4413. Have you examined any schools carried on upon the system which you approve of, and whicii have been tried for some time, so as to enable you to speak from experience whether any of the eftects which you think desirable have been in any degree |)roduced ? — Certainly I have, both in Scotland and in this country, and particularly there are certain industrial schools in the neighbourhood of London, which seem to me to be peculiarly worthy of observation and imitation in the parochial unions throughout the country ; I refer especially to the schools of the Children's Friend Society, in which deserted children and juvenile offenders from the streets of London are trained, in industry especially, in order that they may afterwards be a])prenticed in the colonies ; and not only the reports of that society and my communications with some of its most intelligent members, but personal observations in the schools, lead me to believe that a system of instruc- tion ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 7 tion similar to that pursued in the schools of the Children's Friend Society would j. P. Kay, E.q. be exceedingly important in the county schools which I propose should be provided *'•"• for the orphan, deserted and other children who are more permanently maintained ^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^ in the workhouses. 4414. Where is the school of the Children's Friend Society conducted ?— There is one school at Ilackney-Wick for boys, and another at Chiswick for girls, under the patronage of the Queen and tlie Duchess of Kent, v 441 5. AVhat effect, in your opinion, upon pauperism, which is the peculiar object' of our inrpiiry, would tliis sort of education be likely to have ?— I cannot conceive that the children, if they were carefully trained, morally and religiously, and had the means afforded them of acquiring skill in trades and habits of industry, would to any great extent be dei^cndent upon the rate-jiayers, especially under the system in which the law is now administered in the country. 4416. You think that the religious and moral feelings which would be im- planted by tliis education, and the habits of industry and the acquaintance with dif- ferent occupations which they would be likely to acquire, would give them a better chance of providing for themselves as independent members of the community than if they were not educated at all, or educated in the same imperfect manner as here- tofore ?— Certainly ; I may be permitted also to observe, that if this training in in- dustry were not provided in the workhouse, it must, of necessity, be provided out of the workhouse, at the cost of the rate-payers ; and I conceive that the necessity for adopting the system of apprenticeship which led to so many pernicious conse- quences arose out of the absence of a proper plan of industrial training in the workhouses of the old incorporations and in the parochial workhouses ; I find that if the same number of children were supported in other districts, in proportion to the population, as are supported in workhouses in Norfolk and Suffolk, that there would be 40,125 children between the ages of two and sixteen in the work- houses of England and Wales, and 44,697 children between the ages of two and six- teen who belong to the classes who are more permanently maintained in workhouses, as described in the table presented to the Committee. If only one-tenth of those persons, from any defect in their education, with families of the ordinary size, become for six months in the year only, dependent upon the rate-payers, an annual outlay of 104,000/. would be encountered; and if the ordinary system of apprenticeship which had been previously adopted in the old incorporations and in the parishes were again resorted to, it appears to me quite reasonable to suppose that out of 1,847 children who are now maintained in the workhouses of Norfolk and Suftblk more permanently, at least 180 must be apprenticed every year, by which an expense of 1,800 /. iii apprentice fees would be encountered in the work- houses in Norfolk and Suftblk ; and if the same proportions obtained in other dis- tricts of England and Wales, that 4,356 children would liave to be apprenticed annually at an annual expense of 10 I. each, or a total annual expense of 43,356 /. jn England and Wales, for the apprenticeship of children ; all of which expense, be- sides the saving in the plan of management at present pursued in the workhouse schools, might, I think, be entirely avoided, by pursuing a proper system of religious, moral and industrial training in schools properly maintained tor that purpose. 4417. Do you think that the effect of giving this education to children would be to enable them to get out into service, and to obtain occupations very much more easily than they otherwise would do ? — Whenever there is a skilful and atten- tive master or mistress of the workhouse, the success which we have already obtained in the management of the workhouse schools enables him to procure situations, particularly for the girls, in domestic service, without premiums in money, perhaps, beyond the outfit of clothes, with an orphan girl ; or in case of a boy being put out for husbandry, the outfit of the clothes for the orphan boy. 441 8. In case the children were not in that manner prepared for domestic service or out-door occupation, would it not be necessary, in order to ease the parish from the growing incumbrance, to have recourse to a system of apprenticeship ?— I can present the Committee with a table, showing what was done in one of the best-managed incorporations of Suffolk, in which out-door relief has never been administered, to any great extent, for a long series of years past, and in which almost the only evil has been the extent to which the apprentice system has been pursued. It has been the custom in that incorporation, to apprentice, not merely the orphan and bastard children, but children of able-bodied widows and able- bodied men who were in employment ; and I have here a table, which I should ^02. A 4 desire 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. p. Kay, Esq, desire to put in, showing that the chief expenses in that incorporation were M. D. encountered l)y a number of the chikh-en of able-bodied men, who had to be apprenticed, being admitted into the workhouse, as a relief to their parents. The 13 March 1838. table shows that the training which was pursued in the workhouse was not suffi- cient to procure the cessation of the dependence of those children upon the rate- payers without giving a premium, which was, on the average, lOZ. ; and in some years nearly 1,000/. has been expended in one year in this incorporation, containing 11,000 inhabitants, solely for the apprenticeship of children ; the average expense for the last 10 years having been 330/. or 340/. a year. The table describes the number of children of able-bodied men admitted, discharged, apprenticed, placed in service, and who died, in each year in this incorporation ; the same facts for the children of able-bodied widows, the children whose parents were disabled, orphans, for deserted children, for children of convicts and the children of lunatics and idiots, for every year since 1830 and 1831 up to the present period. [The Witness delivered in the *a??i^.—F2(/e Appendix (C.)] 4419. Independently of the obvious expense of apprenticeship, in giving fees, what, in your opinion, are its moral effects upon the character of the apprentice, and of the receiver of the apprentice ? — I must distinguish between an apprenticeship to trades, and an ajjprenticeship to husbandry. In the apprenticeship to trades, it occurred under the old system that the premium chiefly formed an induce- ment to persons of narrow means, to whom the premium itself was exceetlingly desirable as a means of escape from some temporary pressure, and who took the children without any great need of their services, or without the parish having any great regard to the means which those persons enjoyed of promoting the welfare of the children, by carefully training them in a trade, and thus procuring the cessation of their dependence upon the rate-payers, so that a very lai'ge pro- portion of the children became dependent upon the parish to ■which they were ap- prenticed. One of the most prominent evils of the system, and which led to a large amount of chicanery in practice, was, that their dependence upon the parish to which they had previously belonged, ceased by their obtaining a new settle- ment. With respect to the apprenticeship to husbandry, many of the evils which were encountered in the apprenticeships to trades, were encountered ; but others were avoided in Noifolk and Suffolk to a very large extent : this ajjpren- ticeship was compulsory ; the occupiers received an apprentice unwillingly ; and the apprentice went unwillingly to the master ; and it must be quite evident that no good service or good instruction could be obtained under such circumstances. In other cases where the apprenticeship was not compulsory, the very circum- stance that the child w-as bound to the master, and tlie master bound to ])er- form certain duties to the child, rendered the natural obligations of duty between master and servant of less force ; and the child gave imperfect service to the mas- ter, and the master imperfect instruction to the child ; so that the real objects which ought to have been sought to be obtained by the apjn'enticeship of the child, were almost altogether lost, and a great amount of evil was occasioned by the system. 4420. You think, therefore, that it would be a great object to do away with the necessity of compulsory apprenticeship, and to enable those children, by proper training and education, to have a good chance of providing for themselves ? — I believe that if a proper system of training were adopted, upon the plan submitted to the Committee, or any other good plan, the necessity for apprenticing -svould be altogether obviated. 4421. If in any particular instance you should succeed in introducing a tolerably good system of education in particular workhouses, have you any security for that system being permanent ? — I must say, with great regret, that I fear, without the gre^atest personal exertion on the part of the Assistant-commissioners and some of the most intelligent members of the board of guardians, that there is no existing secin-ity for the maintenance of the improvements which have been obtained in many of tlic workhouse schools ; and I greatly fear, unless the system were concen- trated into county schools, where the opportunities for observation and control would be much more fre ' 3 • template the admission to them of children of all classes who might be disposed to send their children? — The first consideration for the board of guardians would be, whether the child was necessarily dependent ujion the rate-payers ; if they determined to relieve the indigence of that child they would take care to grant relief in such a May as to ])r(>cure for the rate-payers tlie laro'cst amount of security that its indigence should jiermanently cease ; and 1 do not conceive that there would be any additional facilities granted for the admission of the child than now e.xist, as granted by the board of guardians, thouoh as far as the question of receiving the children of indejjendent labourers out of the workhouse into those schools is concerned, if proper arrangements Mere adopted for that purpose, I see no objection. 4440. Theii you contemplate those county schools to be entirely out of the control and management of the different boards of guardians in the county ? — I should propose that a board of management should be formed, elected from the boards of guardians, combined for the purpose of maintaining the schools, and that the schools should be under the management of the persons so elected ; but if it were proposed that the cliildren of independent labourers in the neighbourhood of the school should be admitted into it, I can see no objection to that, though it is quite plain that the board of guardians could have no fiirther control over those children than their parents and guardians might desire. 4441. Then you do not contemplate those schools to be schools open to the admission of any children whatever, that their parents may send to them, inde- pendent of the board of management or of the guardians 1 — I see no objection to that, though I think, that whenever the child of an independent labourer is sent to a school, it is very desirable that the parent should not surrender the rioht of removing it, or of interfering with any portion of its instruction ; and therefore, on that ground, it is exceedingly desirable that the parents of this child should make some ])ayment, as a token of their riglit of interference with the training f>f their children. 4442. But supposing the admission to such schools to be open to the public, respectable yeomen and farmers might wish to send their children there ? — I con- ceive that the training given to the children, especially in industrj', would very much distinguish the character of the school from that to which a respectable yeo- man or farmer would like to send his child; and as that would form one of the most prominent features of the school, conducted upon the principles which I liave attempted to describe to the Committee, and would also exhaust the largest portiou of every day, I think that in itself would be a complete distinction between the school provided for the children of the labouring classes and tlic school pro- vided for the children of the yeomen of the district. 4443. The principles upon which you would desire this school to be established seem to be those upon which you would now establish schools in workhouses, only that particular difficulties occur which prevent, according to the evidence you have given, the full extent of the principles being carried out in the workhouses ? — Certainly. 4444. But you would not go much beyond the education now given in woi-k- houses in those county schools for the children of paupers ? — I should not expect to have any better teachers than are in some of tlie workhouses in Norfolk and Suffolk, or any better instruction than now exists in some of the work- houses in Norfolk and Suffolk ; but the reason Avhy 1 am anxious that the county schools should be established is, that security Avould be })rovided that all the jiaupers' children would receive instruction, and for the permanence of the system, and for economy. 4445. And you likewise remove the children from those interferences which it is impossible to ])rovide absolutely against, so long as they are maintained in the same workhouse with the adult ])aupers ? — Certainly. 4446. IN'Ir. Estcourt.l If there were a good school already established in the neighbourhood, should you object to the children of the workhouse being sent for instruction in the day to such a school ? — Certainly not ; on the contrary, if we were to have separate schools connected with each of tlie workhouses, I think that it would be obviously a great improvement, if a parochial school were in the -02. " B 2 neighbourhood 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COAOIITTEE J. P. Kau, Esq. neighbourhood of the workhouse, that the chiklren of the workhouse should be M. D. sent to that school to be educated with the children of the independent labourers, provided the board of guardians could have sufficient control over the manage- 13 March 1838. ^^gj^^ ^f ^lie school. 4447. You do not see any thing in the nature and condition of the children in the workhouse that should render you averse to allowing them to be brought up in the same school and upon the same footing as the children of independent labourers in a parochial school in the neighbourhood? — On the contrary, I see eveiy thing desirable in the plan proposed. 4448. Mr. Mih's.] Unless a national system of education is established, in which the independent poorer classes are all alike interested, and all alike have the power of sending their children there to receive education, would not this plan which you adopt place the pauper children very much above those of the independent laljourers as to education ? — I think that in regard to the industrial instruction, which is perhaps that which is most desirable in the training of a child of that class, all the advantages are still on the side of the independent labourer's child, and that in the attempt to remove the difficulties which there are in conveying ]iroper instruction to the child, it appears to me that you cannot do justice to the pauper child if you afford only the present parochial education. 4449. Chairman.'] In what way do you think the advantages are entirely in favour of the independent labourer's children ?— Inasmuch as the instruction in industry is in more direct and close connexion with the future occupation of the child, he becomes acquainted by degrees, insensibly almost, with all the species of industry, with the arts of husbandry, and with the occupations of labourers, and he also forms relations with the farmers ; he obtains a character for fidelity and skill, which enables him to procure a situation as an independent labourer ; all which advantages are not at all enjoyed by the pauper child now maintained in the workhouse. 4450. Mr. Miles.'] Are there many schools to which the independent labourers can send their children throughout Norfolk and Suffolk I — The parochial schools are not numerous, and many of them are not good; and certainly I should say that all of them are inferior to some of the schools which now exist in the workhouses ; but I must refer to the answer which I gave to the question which was previously \mi to me, in which I stated that I do not think the argument derived from the defect of the existing system of education throughout the country can remove the cogency of the motives . derived from a sense of duty on the part of the boards of guardians and the Poor Law Commissioners towards the pauper children committed to their care. 445 1 . Mr. Estcourt.] Is it not probable, in the nature of things, if an improved system of education were afforded for the pauper children, that from that circum- stance the parochial schools would immediately undergo an amendment ? — I have already said that T have witnessed amendments in schools in the neighbourhood of workhouses, and it would be quite imi)ossible that the existing system of instruction for the children of the poorer classes could exist throughout the country in the neighbourhood of such schools as I propose to create. 4452. Mr. Bailies.] Are there not considerable complaints in the manufacturing districts of the want of female servants ? — Very gi'eat complaints. 4453. Do those complaints extend to agricultural districts? — Complaints of the difficulty of obtaining efficient female servants do extend to the agricultural dis- tricts, though the want of service in those districts is not felt to so great an extent as in manufacturing towns. 4454. And would not this industrial education in a certain time supply this defect? — I think there is no more obvious defect in the training of females of the lower classes than their want of knowledge of domestic economy ; the houses of labourers might he rendered very nuich more comfortable, and more attractive, if th6 young females were instructed in domestic economy, particularly in frugal cookery ; all which is now entirely neglected in the instruction of chil- dren, not oidy in the south of England but in the north. 4455. Then there would be two advantages ; one would be, that the want of good domestic servants would be in a certain degree supplied by that kind of education which you have described ; and the other is, that when the girl becomes a wife, and a mother, she would be more likely to perform her duties to the advantao'e of those with whom she was connected ? — Certainly. 4456r :Mr. Liddell.] With regard to those schools you stated that a large portion ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 13 portion of the cliildreu that you jiroposcd to l)e admitted into them would be j p j^^^^ ^ without their parents, and tlirown ujion tlie worUl for sui)port; with respect m.d. to the religious education in tlie county schools, how would you propose to pro- vide that? — I have stated that I would have a cliaplain to each coimty school, 13 Mnrch 1838. and as the law at present stands, that chaplain would have the superintendence of the religious education of all the children, except those for whose conscien- tious scruples relief is provided by the 1 9th section of the Poor Law Amend- ment Act. 4457. Therefore the children in those schools would be educated by the chap- lain, according to the princij>le8 and doctrines of the Church of England ? — In an agricultural district, an inspection of the books of the workhouses would show that the great majority of those admitted into the workhouses are those who pro- fess to belong to tlie Established Church, the number of Dissenters being extremely small ; it is therefore difficult in such districts to see how a cliaplain could be appointed for the Dissenters only; and I think if the situation of the school were selected with a view to such an object, that sufficient relief would be afforded for the number of Dissenters that are found in workhouses, under tlie 19th section of the Poor Law Amendment Act; and that there would be no great or jirominent ol)jection urged against committing the religious instruction of the children }»riiicipally to the chaplain. 4458. Tlie children whose religious education would be confided to the dissent- ing teachers, would only be so confided upon the special request of their parents ? ■ — The provision of the 19th section of the Act, for the religious instruction which shall be afforded to Dissenters, states that it shall be upon their request, or the request of the parents or the godfathers or godmothers of the children ; in case of their not having either parent or godfather or godmother, if tiiere were friends "who expressed a similar desire, I think it is quite obvious that such a request would be immediately acceded to, and that the children would be separated from the religious instruction given in the workhouse. 44,59. jMr. Miles.'] You say that there are few children of Dissenters in the workhouses of unions with which you are connected ? — Very few. 4460. In the county of Lancaster and in the county of York it would be dif- ferent ? — Certainly. 4461. Would the children of Roman Catholics bo placed under the necessity of learning any catechisms, or any forms connected with religious belief that would be inconsistent with the principles of their parents ? — Certainly not ; if any objec- tion Avere made by the parents, or the godfather or the godmother, or the relation of a child, to any part of the religious instruction, for example, to the reading of the Bible, supposing that such instruction was given or supposed to be given with a view to influence religious belief, and to impart the essential doctrines of Chris- tianity, that objection would be taken to be valid ; the child would be separated from that part of the instruction given in the school, and the religious teacher of the sect would be permitted to have admission to the workhouse, to give reli- gious instruction to that child separately from the rest of the children. 4462. Then in reality, ujion the ground of religious scruple, there does not seem to be any objection to the system you propose ? — I do think that both Dissenters and Catholics would consider that, practically, this relief was sufficient for all the scruples they might entertain with regard to the religious instruction given in the workhouses, under the circumstances jjreviously alluded to. 4463. Though the masters would be, for the most part, the chaplains of the Established Church, and would give to the great body of the children that kind of religious instruction that belongs to their own particular community ? — The instruction would l)e divided under three heads, ndigious instruction, moral and industrial training, and secular insti-uction ; now it would be quite easy to prescribe that to those several departments of instruction jtarticular hours of the day should be allotted, so that it is evident, if a careful definition of what was religious instruction was adopted, it would be easy to separate the children of any sect, or to separate the children of Catholics from that instruction, and to give the children all the advantage of the moral and industrial training, and the instruction in secular knowledge. 4464. The two classes would, of course, be common to all, and therefore it would be only the religious instruction on which there could be any difference as to the course of instruction they should receive ? — Certainly. 4465. AVhat do you mean by secular instruction ? — Under secular instruction I 202. B 3 include 14 MINUTES OF EVmENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ,/. P. Kay, Esq. include reading, ^Titing and arithmetic, and such general knowledge suited to the M.D. station of the children in life as it might be deemed desirable to give them; I personally think that no difficulty ought to be entertained in giving them as much 13 March 1838. J^nowledge as is given in the parochial schools in Scotland, with some thfFerence in regard to the industrial instruction ; and beyond that (being a good practical exam- ple) I should not desire to propose that the schools should proceed. 4466. You have given in a classification of children, divided under different heads ; have you any similar classification of adults in the union workhouses which you have been superintending? — I have a classification of adults here, under several heads, Avhich may give the C'Ommittee the means of ascertaining to what classes they belong, made in answer to a circular which I issued to the masters of workhouses, in the Aveck ending January 1838. The table relates to the follo\A-ing heads ; under the head of able-bodied men, the number married, and whose wives are resident in the workhouse ; the number married, but Mhose wives are resident out of the workhouse ; the number of widowers whose children are resident in the workhouse ; the number of widowers without children in the Avorkhouse ; the number of single men, and, of the above-mentioned classes, the number who had been inmates of the workhouse before the formation of the union. Under the head of temporarily disabled, a similar enumeration of classes. Under the head of old and infirm, also a similar enumeration of classes ; and, substituting husbands for wives, and widows for widoA\crs, a similar enumeration of classes under the head of able-bodied Avomen, and women temporarily disal)led, and of old and infirm Avomen. 4467. And that applies to the Avhole of the unions in the counties of Norfolk and Suffolk Avhicli you have formed ? — Certainly ; to the Avhole of the unions in which the workhouses were in efficient operation. [The Wif./iesft delivered in the same. — F/(/p Appendix (D.)] 4468. When the children come to a suitable age to leaA-e the school, hoAv are they disposed of in the unions ? — As the improvements in the schools have only been recently effected, A'ery considerable difficulty has been experienced, in some cases, in Avhicli there had been previous neglect, in providing situations for the children ; but in those cases in Avhich the improvements have been for some time in progress, little or no difficulty is experienced in providing the girls Avith places in domestic service, and the boys AA'ith situations Avith the farmers, in various occuj)ations of husbandry. 4469. In practice is it found, as there has been an op])ortunity to try the ex- periment, that there is a kindly feeling between the children so instructed and the masters and mistresses that they have been placed Avith ? — It is quite obvious, from the most cursory examination of the subject, that the relations which obtain betAveen the master and scrA'ant, in the cases Avliich I have described, are exceed- ingly more desirable than those that obtain under the apprenticeship system, and, in point of fiict, they are excellent. 4470. Do you apprentice the child to the master ? — ^We do not. 4471. Then, in the event of that child misconducting himself, and a quarrel arising betAveen a master and a child, or a mistress and a chikl, is he or she returned back to the Avorkhouse : — If it were an orphan or deserted child it Avould be retiu-ned to the workhouse, and its dependence would be resumed ; but as the situations are commonly obtained in the parish to Avhich the child belongs, it is obviously the interest of the occupiers that the dependence of the child should cease ; and it is the interest of the child, by industry and skill, to deserve the permanency of the situation in the house of its employer; and, by the natural result of both parties promoting useful relations betAvcen them, it has not been found necessary to resort to any other expedients. 4472. Mr. ilodcjes.'] You have stated that those schools are of quite recent origin ? — We have had schools in the Avorkhouses A'cry far superior to any thing that obtained in the Avorkhouses formerly ; and though I have not gained all the objects tliat T desire, still I may say that certain of the schools have had a consider- able effect in improving'' thc' manners and morals of the children, and making them desirable serA'ants, though they are by no means oA'eiy thing that we ahsIi to obtain. 4473. Have they been sufficiently long established to enable you to speak con- fidently as to the results ? — I cannot speak confidently as to a result Avhich has not been obtained and Avhich is in futurity ; but, arguing from the past, I should say that certain of the schools as they noAv exist Avill afford great security to the rate- payers of the cessation of the dependence of the children. 4474. Chairman. ON THE POOR LAW MIENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 15 4474. Chairman.] When you refer to experience, do you not refer to those J. P. Kut/, Ei(\. sclioois which have been long e.stablished, such as the school at Hackney- Wick and ^i- d. others, the effects of Avhich you have observed? — Of course, the acquaintance wliich I have liad with the influence of those schools upon the morals and industry of 13 March 1838. chiklren, strengthens in my mind the conviction of the utility of the system. 447.'). Mr. Ba/'/ics.] Have any children been sent out of the luiiou workhouses and i)hiced with persons who are to instruct them in ])iisiiiess, or with whom they are placed as domestic servants, since the establishment of those union workhouses ? Certainly. 447b. And as far as the experiment has been tried, which cannot have been for a long time, does it promise to be satisfactory ? — I have already stated that there are schools which have been exceptions to this rule, and in wliicli considerable difficulty has been experienced, and I spoke of other schools in which a better sys- tem liad been ado])ted for a certain period; and in answer to the question, I wish to confine myself to this latter kind of schools The experience we have had of this latter kind of training justifies me in saying that the results alluded to in the question have been attained. 4477. Do you happen to know that children sent from the workhouses under the okl system very frequently returned to the workhouses after liaAing been with their masters or nristresses for a month or two? — That was so common, that it was the rule instead of being the exception to tlie rule. 4478. Are any fees given with the chiklren that are apprenticed out of the workhouse ; do you give to the master or mistress who receive tlie children any fees out of the parochial funds ? — That has not been adojjted in any district under my superintendence, though I see that great advantages would be derived from making the emolument of the master, to a certain extent, dependent upon the more permanent cessation of the dependence of the child and its success in life ; I think that it might be very proper indeed, and useful, to adopt the rule, that after a child liad been a certain period at service the master should receive a premium for its continuance at service. 4479. That would be an improvement upon the former system, which was to give a fee at the time the child leaves the workhouse and enters upon service? — Yes, under tlie old system that w-as the case ; and in consequence of the imperfection of certain of the workhouse schools, we have been driven to adopt that in a few exceptional cases under the new system. 4480. Do you hajjpen to know that formerly under the old system a consider- able number of children were sent from workhouses of the metropolis, and from other places into the country, to a distance of 200 or 300 miles from their proper protectors, and sent to work in factories without having ajiybody to watch over them, or at all to guard against their being ill treated in those factories ? — I do. 4481. Have you any thing in the new law corresponding with that? — I know that in one or two cases children have been sent from certain of the workhouses into Lancashire to tlie manufactories ; if those cases had come under my observa- tion, I certainly should have objected to them, and I was not aware that they had occurred till after the arrangement had been made ; one or two cases of that kind have occurred in which engagements have beer, made for the children, but every watchful care has been bestowed upon their condition by the migTation agent who is employed in Lancashire. 4482. Then under the new system you have, in some instances, drafted off chil- dren in this way from the south, and sent them to manufactories in the north? — I only know one or two examples of that kind, when from 12 to 20 children, orphan and deserted children, were sent into Lancashire. 4483. Chairman.] Placing them imder the protection and observation of the migration agent ? — Exactly ; who has from time to time made reports to the board of guardians of their condition, which have been, I believe, satisfactory to the board. 4484. That being a protection which, previously to the introduction of this law, those children would not have enjoyed ? — Certainly, they would not have enjoyed it. 4485. Mr. Baines.] Would you recommend that that system should be acted upon, or that they should abstain from sending children in that way ? — I have already stated, that when I heard of this proceeding I expressed my disap- probation of it, and in one or two cases in which the attempt was made by the board of guai-dians to send children without their natural protectors into Lanca. 202. B 4 shire \6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. P. Kay, Esq. shire, I urged them to desist from pursuing the plan ; I believe that, in the cases ji. D. in which it lias occurred, the great activity and vigilance of the migration agent has afforded to the chihh-en who have gone, all the protection that possibly could 13 March 1838. jjg given; besides, the situations, I have no doubt, have been selected amongst masters of great intelligence and humanity, whose own natural feelings would prompt them to protect tlie children. 4486. In those cases, after you had made the objection, was the practice ab- stained from in future ? — Certainly. 4487. And it does not now, according to your knowledge, exist in any of the unions with which you are connected ? — Certainly it would not occur again. I ought also to explain that, in the case in which the migration of children occurred, a reputable female, and I believe, a family also, Ment with the children from the district, but certainly a reputable female went. 4488. Fees have been paid with children that have been sent out of the work- house ; do you know whether in any cases tliere have been fees paid l)y parish- ioners who have refused to take children when they have been awarded to them ? — Fines have been paid under the system of compulsory ajiprenticeshij), and those fines amounted to a very considerable sum, in many of the old incorporations, annually ; the occupier was liable to a fine, and, upon a second fine being obtained by tlie offer C)f a child to another occupier, it was common to apjily those accu- mulated fines as the fee of apprenticeship of the child ; sometimes 20 /. were thus given for the apprenticeship of the child, which l:)y no means ensured its well- being ; on the contrary, the examples, great numbers of which I have examined, of the operation of that system have proved that it did not secure the well-being of the children so apprenticed. 4489. Then, in point of fact, it was disadvantageous both to the children and the master : — Certainly ; no system was more unpopular among the occupiers, and no system operated to jirocure greater injury to the children. 4490. ]\Ir. Scropc] You have said that you see no objection to the children in the Morkhousc being educated in some neighbouring school, if there was one, sup- {)osing that the number in the workhouse was not sufficient to nnike it Mortli \\'hi]e to procure the services of an adequate master there ? — Yes. 4491. "N^'ould you, as Assistant-commissioner, feel yourself justified in sanction- ing the payment necessaiy for the education of those children? — I think the children certainly ought not to he sent to any school out of the control of the board of guardians ; and I think, therefore, if the plan were adopted, that the schools should be jirovided at the expense of the union, and that if payment were made it sliould be by the independent labourers whose children come to the school, the school itself lieing under the guidance of the board of guardians. 4492. You contemplate, therefore, the establishment of a new school for that purpose ; liut my question referred to this case : there being no school in the Avork- house, but there bein<>- a fiood school in the neighbourhood of the Avorkhouse, in a town, for example, already established, say a national school, requiring a payment of 2d. per head ])er week, would you, as Assistant-commissioner, feel yourself justified in sanctioning the payment of that 2d. for a certain mnnber of chil- dren maintained in the workhouse, but sent to be educated daily in the national school? — I think that the responsibilities of the board of guardians, in connexion with the subject of the training of children are so great, that they ought not ta send the children to a school over which they have not control, but that the school ought to be Avitliin their control ; and if the children were sent to the neighbour- ing parochial school, the board of guardians Avould not have authority to regulate the discipline of that school, to interfere with the schoolmaster and schoolmistress by a direct exercise of their authority, but only ])y an indirect ; I think it pre- ferable, if the children were educated in conjunction Avith the children of the inde- pendent labourers, Avhicli seems to be exceedingly desirable, that the school in which they Avere so trained should be under the control and guidance of the board of guardians. 4493. But your ansAver supposes the adoption of a neAV plan and the estalilish- mciit of ncAv scliools, Avhich is unlikely to he carried, at all events immediately, into execution ; Mq>posing there Avere 20 children in any Avorkhouse, and there Avas nr) workhouse education there, and there Avas an excellent education in the neigh- bourhood, Avould you have any ol)jection to paying the twopences per Aveek for each of those children for attending this school? — As there does not appear to me to be sufficient security for the permanence of the excellent system Avliich might obtain ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838) 17 obtain in that school, unless it were under the guidance and omtrol of the board J. P. Kay, Esq. S tuXn or the Commissioners ; T should not think that school so desirable a -■-■ m-o^vd gby the direction of theboard of guardians an efficient --^er who shouk ^^^^^ be II tether under their control ; and if any change were made m the present plan I should prefer that it should be the establishment of a school without the wo khouse for ?he mutual benefit of the children in the workhouse and the chil- dren of independent labourers, under the directions of the board ; or the establ.sh- "T4V4' ButyaSiv, the board of guardians would have the power of with- draw it thos; children from the school, in case it were not conducted upon the r3es which it approved of ?-But if, in the principles upon which any system isTundedrrhere be inherent defects, great obstruction and embarrassment must irise in conducting the practical operation of that system. T4Q Are thex^ not many instances of workhouses in which the children are not sufficiently numerous to make it worth while to pay or a schoolmaster, and m hi consequently, there is no education going on ?-There is on y one instance n my distr ct^n wh ch a schoolmaster is not already provided or about to be pro- vided T ere are only one or two cases in which the schoolmaster is not pro- vided' that is mere accident, arising from the dismissal of a schoolmaster, and a certain period having intervened before the election of a new one _ 4106 Does not it' frequently happen that widows with poor children or widow- ers^th poor children, receiving out-door relief from the parish in the shape o aLTace allow those children to grow up uneducated and in a very careless manm" and would you think yourself authorized, or the board of guardians aXrizkri refusing the allowance in those cases, unless the children were Sucated '-I think the first question for the board of guardians ,s. Is the applicant necessarily indigent? and they are bound, as the first object ot their care to reheve EtiSncef and that allthose questions concerning the moral and rebgious trati" ^ S the children must be subservient to the main duty of the board of guaSn" eiL- the temporary or the permanent cessation of the dependence of '^ 4!!)^' I'he question supposes that the widow is receiving out-door-relief ; would youlfot recommend the ^lardians to refuse out-door - -f, and to grve that reh^^^ in the workhouse, where the children obtain a good education ?-Boards ot guar- diais do practical y make inquiries whether the children are employed or go to Sol if there be a school in the neighbourhood; and they encourage hat to a SlTin extent, I may say, by insisting upon the ^^iWren being e,^^^^^^^^^ ffoino- to school: but they do not go so far, in the case of a ^Mdow with a large famVasto refuse out-door relief, supposing she should refose to listen and con- form to the wishes of the board ot guardians. c 1 4408. In such a case, if the widow answered that she had no means of payment forUi education of her children, would the board of 8-nhaji. be justified in payino- the expenses of the education of those children ? -The fact ,s, tl^at in t le S districtslhere schools exist, they are, for the most part, charity schools, and a myment is not required; so that, practically, the instances m which a payment 1 reSXedfronrthe parents for the education of their children are, m the iwal '^tS ^tS.f ^ it eertain that in all cases the board of guardians .;ill bo the fittest parties to exercise an entire control over the school -Most boards of gua'l ans contain certain intelligent individuals to whom such . Kay, Esq. than 30, but I do not (juite remember. "•"• 4566. Mr. Esfcmirt] Do you not think that, supposing the peremptory rule ^ were not sent to the board of guardians, if they were disposed to act contrary to 3 arc the principles of the Act, immediate notice could be taken by the Assistant- commissioner, and a superintending direction by the Commissioners in London, to prevent it ? — That disposition might not affect a single board ; it might affect the boards of an entire district ; if it affected merely a single board, I should have considerable confidence in the personal interference of the Assistant-commissioner, and the explanations which he might make to the board might induce them to adopt the provisions of the law ; but if it occurred throughout the boards of an entire district, it is quite obvious that it would be impossible for the Assistant- commissioner to ])rocure such a result ; and I do not desire to put forward the example of Norfolk and Suffolk as one which would apply to other districts of England. I think it will be remembered by the Committee, that the occupations in Norfolk and Suffolk are generally large ; that the occupiers are men of capital and great .skill, and that probably there is a larger average amount of intel- lio-ence in the board ; and certainly there has been the utmost attention to their duties ; probably tliat which has occurred in Norfolk and Suffolk could not be hoped to occur in every district throughout the countr}'. 4567. Ui)on the whole, you think it desirable to restrain the exercise of the discretion of the guardians by the issue of the peremptory rule? — Hitherto I have not, myself, applied in any case for the issue of the rule to any board of guardians in my district, with the exception of one, in which I merely supported the applica- tion from the members of the board, and therefore, up to the present period, I have not found the slightest necessity for the exercise of the authority of the Poor Law Commissioners; but I cannot help saying that I think that necessity might arise at any moment, and if the advantage of the law were to be jeopardized liy the feeling of ai.y individual board or any district, I think it would be incumbent upon the Poor Law Commissioners to issue their rule. 4568. Chairman.] May it not be desirable, under particular circumstances, to relieve the board of guardians from the responsibility, even where their convictions may be in favour of the peremptory rule, by issuing it ? — Certainly ; and such feeling has been expressed to me, but I have thought it so useful that the operation of the law, resting solely upon the conviction of the boards of guardians, should be permitted, that I have declined for the present acceding to the wishes of certain boards, that they should be relieved from the responsibility. 4569. Mr. Baines.] Before the new law came into existence, was there not a great dissimilarity in the practice of administering the law in different parts of the country ? — Certainly. 4570. And yet they were all under the same law? — The same law, though there were modifications of the law, which were adopted in different parts of the country by special acts, at the discretion of the parishioners, in applying for particular statutes to come into force in their districts. 4571. But, with the exception of those local Acts, if there was a great dLssimi- larity before in the mode of administering the law, they being, with the exception of those Acts, all under the same law, is it not likely that if there were not a superintending power, by which uniformity is kept up, they would degenerate into the same course of practice again ? — I have no hesitation in saying so ; and at the present I must say, that the cordiality that exists between various boards of guardians and myself personally, and the confidence which they express in the Poor Law Commissioners, is prol^ably, in some respects, a lucky accident which cannot be always expected to continue ; if, from any circumstances whatever, the feelings or views of individuals changed, it is quite apparent to me that the Legis- lature should insist upon its view of the principles being carried into effect, and not leave it to the judgment of each individual board. 4572. Mr. Scroj)c.'] You have stated, that the relief of the able-bodied, exclu- sively, in the workhouse, when carried into full effect, had a direct effect upon the rate of wages, tending to raise them, l)y a sort of compulsory influence on the occupiers of property in the parish to which the labourer belonged? — I have stated, that the law appeared to me to impose upon the board of guardians one of three alternatives, the maintenance of the labourer, with sufficient employment and sufficient wages, the maintenance of the labourer at double the ccst in the 202. D workhouse, 26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE /. p. Kay, Esq. workliouse, or the provision of the means of removing the labourer to other M. 1). parishes. 4573- The onus of maintaining the labourers sent to the workhouses falls not 13 March 1838. ^^pf,n ^^^. board of guardians, collectively, but upon the rate-payers of the different parishes to which they belong ? — When I speak of the guardians, I speak of them as the representatives of the parishes. 4574. That influence, you say, has operated powerfully in the Hadleigh district ? — Certainly, in improving the incomes of the labourers, by providing employment. 4575. That influence, to whatever extent it prevails, depends upon the size of the parish and the amount of rate in it ; for example, in a large parish, that influ- ence will be very much diluted, as affecting each rate-payer, whereas, in a small parish, each Avould have a proportionately stronger interest in diminishing the rate ?- — I think that, in a large parish, that influence will be most sensibly felt, in the course of time, in this way ; in a large parish, when evils arise, they are proportioned to the size of the parish ; a bad system of administration will create a very large evil in a large parish ; but a bad system of administration will create absolutely less evil in the small parish, so that the interests of individuals are brought into play equally in a large ]>arish as in a small. 4576. Take the case of an able-bodied labourer, with a large fjxmily, applying "' to the board for relief, on the ground that the wages which he receives are insufHcient to maintain his family ; would not the board of guardians take into consideration the amount of his earnings, generally, and form their own opinion as to their sufficiency for the maintenance of his family, and, upon that opinion, either refuse or admit him to the workhouse ? — Certainly. 4577. Supposing that they admitted him, how would that admission have any direct influence upon his employer, so as to induce him to raise his wages, unless his payment to the rate of the parish, by which the man should be supjjorted, bore a certain sensible proportion ? — It would not have all the effect which practically does obtain, if the connexion between the employer and the labourer were one, sim- \ ply of interest and not to a certain extent of feeling ; but I believe that one of the greatest benefits derived from the Poor Law Amendment Act has been by an increase, first, of the industry and the fidelity of the lul>om'er, and then by making it more obviously the interest of the employer to substitute much more healthful relations between the employer and the labourer than those which previously existed. It is not merely the nominal amount of wages which must be taken into account, but the influence of the fear of losing an industrious and faithful servant, who has obtained an acquaintance with the peculiar modes of employment prac- tised by his master, and has obtained a sort of permanent situation upon his farm ; all these things must be taken into account besides the sin]])le pecuniary interest. 4578. Are there not, in most rural parishes, certain persons among the em- ployers upon whom, from the dullness of their intellect, or from the selfishness of their minds, those feelings are not likely to have any great effect, and -who would prefer continuing the inferior rate of wages to an increase of wages, even though the consequence of such refusal should be an increase of rate to the parish ? — I think there are such individuals ; but their dullness, or their selfishness, Avould probably lead them to employ the single men and the men with small families, as a means of escaping from the necessity of providing an increase of income for the labourer ; but a labourer with a large family is compelled, having a larger amount of responsibility, to exercise a larger amount of forethought and industry ; and > such persons become the trust-worthy servants in husbandry, who recommend themselves by those qualities to superior situations, with intelligent and humane masters, and who, by those qualities, retain those situations. 4.579. Pnxctically, have you not found that there are individuals in those parishes Avho hold out in that way, and adhere to a low rate of wages, refusing to bring them up to the higher level, which the more intelligent of their neighbours have resorted to ? — I believe there are exceptions to every rule, and I should not be disposed to deny that there are exceptions to the rule which I have stated ; but I think it not necessary to state the exceptions which are admitted, but to state the rule. 4.580. In those cases of presumed inadequate wages, the workhouse relief is applii'd by the board of guardians, and in that way a direct efl'ect is jtroduced upon wages by the action of the board l — If by wages is understood, which I wish to be understood, the annual amount of the income of the labourer from employ- ment, that is the case. 4.581. You ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 27 4,581. You admit that the influence is diminished in proportion to the extent of j, p. ^'^y, Esq. the })arisli, and the number of occupiers in it ? — In a series of years, I do not m. d. a(hiiit that ; in a series of years, T believe that the occupiers generally will find that it is their interest, whether in a large parish or a small, to adopt correct '3 March 1838. methods of administration. In a small parish, where there is a smaller amount of intelligence, and where there are needy fanners, it is obvious that a larger period must be permitted to elapi 3 • tain whether there was a continued increase of crime up to the year 1834, looking back to the last 40 or 50 years r— I have not done that ; though I have no doubt that, by aji^jlying to the governors, it M'ould be possible to obtain that information ; information from other sources is, I find, not to be obtained in such a form as to furnish the grounds of comparison ; and there is no accurate information to be obtained for a series of years, except from governors of the gaols. 4599. Are you aware that tables have been made out from the Parliamentary returns, proving that there has been a most frightful increase of crime in the last 40 years throughout the kingdom ?— I am aware that such returns have been made ; but I do not know the basis upon which they rest ; though I do not doubt that an increase of crime has occurred, I doubt the correctness of the sources of information, because I have attempted to get the information from similar sources ©f information, and have failed. 4600. Chairman.'] What diet have you generally in the workhouses of your dis- trict ? — There is no uniform dietary in the workliouses of Norfolk and Suffolk ; if the boards of guardians desire to take any one of the Commissioners' dietaries, they adopt that ; and if they desire any change in the dietary, consistent with the principles upon which the Commissioners proceed, that has been always conceded to them, excepting that it has not been considered desirable to permit that spirituous or fermented liquors should be given, except by direction of the medical officer. 4601. Have the boards taken any of those dietaries which have been recom- mended by the Commissioners ? — Yes. 4602. Making modifications in them, according to the custom and habits of the • country ? — Yes. 4603. Which modifications have been consented to by the Commissioners ? — Invariably, upon a recommendation by the board of guardians. 4604. What have you observed to be the health of the inmates living upon the dietaries ? — I have applied myself to obtain information upon that subject, which is a very difficult subject to investigate, and I have some tables relating to the mortality in the workhouses, which it might be interesting for the Committee to be in possession of. It is quite evident that the mortality in the workhouses must necessarily be high, because a large number of the individuals who are ad- mitted into workhouses are either aged or infirm, or are sick, at the jieriod of their admission, or are persons whose indigence is the consequence of improvidence, and probably of vice, or they are infants who have been exposed by dissolute mothers to the inclemency of the season, or have been improperly nursed, and who are brought into the houses either in a state of great debility or in a state of actual suflPering from disease. Now I have here some tables, giving a great variety of particulars concerning the mortality in the workhouses of Norfolk and Suffolk, which show that the mortality princijially occurs above the age of GO, and under the age of 10, and in proportions and under circumstances which obvi- ously indicate tliat the sources of mortality are such as I have described. The tables are, perhaps, too elaborate to be the subject of any verbal statement, and therefore I should desire to put them in for the information of the Committee. [^The Witness delivered in the same. — Vide Appendix (I.)] 4605. Taking from those tables, or from any other information, the able-bodied inmates of the workhouse, or those who from age or from })revious habits of life are liable to disease, more than the generality of persons, do you observe that the mortality in the houses is such as to give you any reason to suspect either the quality or quantity of the diet are improper? — I am (|uite satisfied that the workhouses in Norfolk and Suffolk are most healthy establishments, taking into account all the circumstances affecting them of that kind. 4606. Mr. Baines.] Have you any comparison of the old workhouses and the new, or do your tables apply only to workhouses under the new system ? — I have no means of acquiring information concerning the old workhouses, at least not information of that character which would enable me to form a comparison between the old and new workhouses ; the books of the incorporation were not kept in such a way as to enable me to form the slightest comparison between the results obtained from the new unions and those from the old incorporations. ^02. I) 3 4tio7. Do 30 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE /. P. Kay, Esq. 4607. Do you know any sources from which that information could be derived? M- »• — I think not ■ 4608. Chamnan.'] You are in the habit of going to those workhouses very fre- 13 March 1 838. quently ?— Very frequently. 4609. Independently of those returns which indicate the deaths, is there any thing in the general apjjcarance of the inmates which leads you to suppose that they are unhealthy ? — On the contrary, the children are all in blooming health ; and it is subject of constant remark in the boards of guardians, what a different appearance there is in the complexion and state of the children Avho are admitted and those who have been in for any period ; the aged paupers are, putting out of account the infirmities incident to their age, and those which they brought with them into the workhouse, in my experience, all in a good state of health. \ 4610. There is nothing, then, in the circumstances of the workhouse, as far as they have come under your observation, which leads you to believe that the diet is unwholesome ? — On the contrary, that it is such as leads to the support of health. 4611. That being generally a diet recommended by the Commissioners, M'ith modifications according to the previous habits of the country, assented to by the paupers ? — Certainly. 4612. Mr. Estcourt.] For the most part, is that dietary the lowest of those found in the Commissioners' Report? — There is every kind of variety in the district, and my memory does not serve me to state which of the particular dietaries most prevail. 46 1 3. INIr. Baines.'\ Do you know any thing of the dietary in the Manchester workhouse ? — I do not. 46 1 4. Mr. Boiling.] lias this alteration of the dietaries been one that has been more substantial than the former ones ? — -The alterations have not been such as to increase materially the amount of the dietary. 4615. Nor the amount of expense ?— No, it is a change of quality rather than of quantity. 4616. Mr. Fielden.'\ You have spoken of three alternatives, one of which was the removal of the poor to other jdaces ; have you been in the habit of recom- mending migration from Norfolk and Suffolk to the manufacturing districts ? — Certainly. 4617. In the Appendix to the First Report of the Commissioners, I find that you have given a table, which states the " Quantity of steam power, either recently erected, but not supplied with hands, or which is ordered and will be in operation in a year and a half or two years, in the cotton district of Lancashire and its imme- diate vicinity ;" then follow the names of the townships or parishes which form the centre of the district so called, the number of firms, and the number of horse power ; and, at the foot of the table, there is this, " A further statement, com- prising every engine, its power, the name of the firm to which it either has been or will be supplied, the situation of the mill, the manufacturing process in which this moving force is to be employed, and the authority (generally a civil engineer, resident in the cotton district,) whence this information Avas derived, were all furnished to the Commissioners ; this information was, however, for obvious reasons, confidentially communicated, and cannot, therefore, be published in this Report ; I may, however, add, that this power is almost entirely intended for spinning, or for spinning and weaving ;" can you furnish the Committee with that information ? — I can furnish the Conunittee with the documents which I submitted to the Com- missioners, if they consider that no injury would arise to the public service ; but before doing so, I should desire to state this, that though I have perfect confidence in the whole results being correct, I do not consider that the way in which the information was necessarily derived by me, in the short period in which it was obtained, would make each particular statement, as to each individual mill, j)ositively accurate as to the amount of horse power ; with that proviso, I think, the whole statement would be found to be accurate ; in some cases the statement would exceed, in other cases it would be under, because the information was obtained from inquiries of the manufacturers of the district, who stated what their belief was as to the amount of horse power which was about to be provided by some one or other of their neighbours, or of some civil engineer, who told me not merely what was occurring in his own engagements, but in the neighbourhood where he was engaged. 4618. Whether correct or incorrect, you can furnish that return ? — I can. William ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 31 WilUain Richard Dickins, called in ; and Examined. 4619. Mr. Wal-lcij.'] YOU arc the jjersoii rrom whom I presented a petition the ^. ^. Dickins. other day, stating tliat you had a daughter wlio was afflicted with idiocy? — I am. 4620. Where do you reside? — No. 30, Charles-street, Hoxton. 13 March 1838. 4t)2i. A\'liat is your occu[)ation ?— A pa]ier-hanger. 4622. Chainnav.'] What was the nature of your petition ? — That I applied to the parish to receive her, in conscciuence of her being motherless, and that I am unable to suj)])ort her, and I oiiglit to keep a person to administer to her wants ; the parish have refused her being admitted, in consequence of her being afflicted. 4623. What is the parLsli ? — St. Leonard's, Shoreditch. 4624. Is that in union ? — \\\n not aware. 4625. To \\ lioni did you apply ? — The board at the workhouse. 4626. To whom ? — To the committee, the vestry-clerk and so forth, where they were sitting in the workhouse ; I applied first to the vestry-clerk, and he referred me to the conniuttee, on a certain day, which is called the board of guar- dians. 4627. AVhere is the committee sitting to whom you applied ? — In the work- house in Kingsland-road. 4628. (To Mr. Chadtvick.) !» that parish in union under the Commissioners' orders? — No, it was placed under the Poor Law Commissioners, but that order is revoked. 4629. And it now administers relief, not under the order of the Poor Law Commissioners ? — Yes. 202. D 4 APPEIVDIX. 32 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE X l-H CL, < 01 « e» 01 , 'i- r^ -1- CO * < M CO o ^S. rJ-CO - CO CO - to «5 /— ■'-^ «-^ - en ct ci c< « (» CO CO r^co to to •a^liijqpoo^V CC 00 C3 «5 1 1 01 to 1 1 I — 1 I 1 1 ■pjoidiic^ 00 ■«■ C< f o '^ CO 1 I r^ •SuiqiCig CO -0- »o C» 05 Oi - 1 t^ O) CI - c* — 1 I 1 1 -iT •puBi^BM. — r^ 03 ^ t^ 1 1 « to 1 1 1 CI 1 1 ei 1 •iunuSiir=|i!^ J 1 1 1 \ 1 t 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 W3 •8uiddEH Jj pnsisurij CO •» C» « 05 C« 1 - -i- CO c* ^ c» 1 1 ■PJO.M'MX TKD ,H ^ 1 1 1 CT t 1 1 t >- 1 CO 1 •uinquuMg - ^ -H 1 1 1 1 1 ct iC « 1 1 - 01 .5 M U) P O o •qaiipunET 39 pjnniM -i ei « n ■* - « 1 1 CO U5 d c< « »o 1 1 1 - •3uij3AB|3 59 uoppo^ •«■ c* c« 1 c« 1 - 1 1 c* ^ Tj-CO CO -^ , - •uu.Ct s.Siii^ <0 9 ■*f^ r» •«■ * - » -■ - 00 1 '- 1 r 1 1 •pEaistisH 03 •«• CO { 1 1 1 1 1 1 CO 1 1 C* Ci CO to ■ssojsjiing - 10 at 01 « 1 CO •* - 1 1 - 1 I i^to c « u a 3 •uUiCq aSpuqssij •* ct 1 CO - 1 1 ** I 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 •aoqaioj I^CO to CO to - 1 1 t CO 1 I C4 t - 1 et 1 •sS33,j ■«• IK t I - ct 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 -> 1 >J- CO 1 1 •* 1 1 1 s: ■s.MI!"'J'lS c "3 •lueq^indjg COCO ^ ■* ■•I- 1^ 1 - 1 1 CI I ^ CO CI - r in s z a •uiBqii.«0(-[ ' ' *Sin?[3o(j CO « « CO 1 C* 1 1 1 e< - CO - CI 1 1 •3pE«daf( OS - CO c< - ^ CO ^ c« - C* CO t t — 1 1 .3 8 a. •pi^yjia - CO ^ CO 1 1 •>(■ in c< - CO CO 1 1 into •aiBqB|.Cy O) 1^ C* CO CO i^ - 1 t 1 03 r 1 1 1 - c« t^ .- '^■z >>— ^x H 3 ■Xi CO J3 tiD J3 to ^ CUD ^ 5k) ^—^ ^.-^ ^— ' *-v— ' <-,—> v^^ *~.^-' V-^^" '-^— ' a ' ' c: 3 J4 c < p; 5 3 3 1 I 1 1 CO c V C3 < • lU " » 3 1 X c "c8 ■§ S -o rt — c ^ 3 3 0) u c £ . ha 1 ^"'^ o. Ji E a. 13 " ^ < E •0 5 cu * Of .^ .- a QO s TS l°5 i2 ^ a. = 4, — 73 ^S ■ ^ •c 3 C T3 13 S 1; C £J= ty • 2f = J! -0 Si Of -0 s "o 2 ctl 1 g - "H, -3 Q £ ^ 0^ £5 11 •a 3 ll m "U u u ;^ y 1 ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. 33 . «- 1 - 1 "^ •aSpuqpoojw - CI t^ r^ Oi CO C* « CD 1 CO •pSDjluoiddy e< 1 - uj ( d 1 •1" •pjoj3uEw * ■^d 1 1 - 1 1 •aoSuiqx d CO cd to d •psiliuipv •* t^oo oco ei 1 to - •MOJg 00 ■^O « CO CO CT « — « — CD CO •p^ia « i 1 - 1 1 1 •Ajnqpng - ^3CI (A CO I M a c« ct *33IAJ3g til p33R[^J »o 1 1 — « CO t •paojaiBg 1 ■* 0> O U3,C0 <-« CD bO 1 CO 'pd3iiudjddy ■* - a CO 1 ■>i- 1 CO CO CO - •aSptaqsiji 1 00 c« n CO o C* 1-1 •^ -c ■pa§ji!i|asi(j ■4-- « ■* CO 1 1 >> a •a)ii2s^ui0|j to CO - -^ -^ C) ■pajinupv CO -^ o c< — d I CO — •-1 CO . •lIBquapnivi 1 > Of CO CO 1 •pssa -qoiMsdj to !>. Ol »-0 -^ O ^ — « CO ■SDiAjag ui paOEU « 1 1 Ti-- 1 1 a I-3UJ0H CO CO .- -1 3 13 'paoiliidjddy - CO-. 1 1 M 1 CO 00 o c3 •saamsiiJEfj CO CI fh c3 0) •paSjEiiosiQ O -^OO « 1 — 1 c* o •pjojsoo e« CO CO iC CO -4- •paijioipv Old d 03 - CO 1 CO — — o M QJ 5 c • •iiopfsQ ptiB aijrasog ■* looo OiOiso •psia d d - 1 1 1 1 < •Suiqiiia CO O CO coco CO >5 O H CO •aoLiasg u; p3DE[j ■puBiiCBAV CO « r>. ■* c» 21 O H < o 1 •psojUiaJddy CO d d CO - - 1 ^ ■Suiddnfj 03 CO«D t^ ^ d ■paSiEqasiQ ■* d ■+ - 1 1 1 piiB pBsjsunx *> 173 1 •pjojjaqx m -H -.*• -.J- -(f T^ •pajiiQipy *CO(D CO 1 1- 1 d •iucqJ5n«s CO cj 2*'^2 ' a 55 1 •paiQ 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 » •qojipancj « O CD Ol CO ^ CO •sDiAjag UI paacu - 1 1 i 1 1 i puo pioja!i\r •gun3AE|,') o 1 1-1 o CO GO o 1 t 0)ci (O d •paoiliiajddy I^ CO - O — CO 1 e o -a ptlB lloppo-j (U a. a. ■< CO ■aa^i s,3u[>i 1 CO CO CO o c* •pOoIEqDSIQ ro 1 - - 1 1 1 CO •peajsuDH - inoc e» 1 1 ■panitupy CO-CO -■ 1 t^ 1 CO <-■ •ssojDiiing tra CI r^^ Oi CO - CI CI •psia 1 - « 1 1 I 1 s; ■uuiq O - CO ei d irt C^ ■aaiAisg UI psOBij ■«■ 1 1 1 d 1 1 aSpijqasjj " V -a CO 1 5i •aoqajpj « 1 Ti- irtco ei I-. ^ c* •paanuaaddy CO « « »o d d I a O & E 3 2 •J •5333IJ CO I 1 1 1 t^ •paSicqasiQ CO d to •* 1 I i CO •s.qiiBJ 'JS o uOt^ CO CO CO •paniiupy O O) O 'i- CO d 1 .s 3 •uiEqSnidjg 1 t^ t^ I^ •* 1 ■psiQ 1 1 - 1 III •3uiT130(J \a CO oco o •^ o "5 CO I •aDiAJag UI paoBijj CO - 1 1 1 1 1 J' •apBMdsQ t> o o CI r^ *o — d CI — ■* •paaiinajddy - t^ " -*■ 1 d 1 d H 1 •ppgoia •* ^ t^ o o 1 d ^ ^4 2 •paSjEqasig; - d Tf 1 - 1 1 d •lUoqsi^V CI t^CO — o o d - E < •pajlirapy CO Tj- d to CO d 1 CO — m »*- in 14 . . • ■ . 1 1 o £ X &.»? ■s « •J .^ 1 I 1 1 ■ 1 il 3 y O. si 1 " < £ g £ c "o -o 11 3 — _W _1> ^ u 5 = i« 5 ^ ~ = ^ ^^ 5 o - « C C H c 1> ■^ 4J 2 ^ -' 2 2 fl 5 rt wb'H t; -— "5 "6 C (L» i' j; (U !> 11 liii rt u t. H t- t- _ (LI tu 1/ j> ly = _3 JD ^ -Q X» 2 E s = s e — 3 = 333 E 3 o OS H P4 W cn < ^ .3 , , . . 111' •: = r '-^ ^-^ 6 :^ f d ijiiiii ^ d CO ^ wo^ F-" «r ■ § •SoJ t: CO o 00 §1 202. 34 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE CO c' >.o ^, 'tc 1 ■^ CO to « 'S- CO d ^ •< 1 o> ^ CI CO CO cv "^ " ^ ' — -fl- CO O lA CI - - o: • - o« CO « CO sO — ■* - coo 1 « I^ - d CO — Oi UO - C71 lO 1 10 t^CC CO coto - - - d I^ 1 O) d CO lO - to - COCD d - • ^ •a§ptjqpoo^\\ O 1 1 1 - - CO 1 1 - o CO c« 1 — coco CO el CO 1 03 r^ d d - - d 1 1 to t^ CI 1 I d 1 d c» •pJOi§UEA\ -1- 1 1 C» Tf Tt- 1 1 1 1 en cc — CI 1 -1- 1^ CI Tt-d 1 CO 1 1 CO 1 1 1 1 1 UO rt - - 1 -t - CO •aoSuiqx - I 1 t -< 1 J 1 1 t 1 I - 1 1 1~ t^ - -■ 1 1 1 US •«• - 111-11 1 - 1 1 COCO ea •Xinqpng O « 1 - CO 't 1 1 1 1 1 I « 1 to lO <5) CO CO CO 1 - UO CI 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 d UO — UOCO CO ■i^ojs tl « 1 1 M « 1 - 1 - CO CO CO CO 1 CO uO d CO - 1 d ^« CO - 1 1 - - t^ CO d 1 1 - d •pjoftnBg " 1 1 1 n - 1 - 1 1 - - I^ 1 1> ^ - - - 1 CO * t^ 1 - - - - 0= £^ - 1 ^ d cc d -6 •aSpuqsiy ■O 1 CI CO o> 1 -Ills J - CO 1 CO M- lO ■*to CO - r^ « - 1 - - 1 - 1 - 1 1 CO d 1 « •3JESs3niO(J « 1 1 1 >n 1 1 - 1 1 - ) 1 1 1 * - CO CO 1 1 d * C3 11-111 1 - 1 d - 1 > •lieqiapiiH 1 1 1 >4 « M 1 1 1 x 1 - 1 1 1 - 1 - 1 « 1 1 d CO d i 1 1 1 r 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 •qoinsdj <0 -> - 1 O 00 « - 1 1 - r - 1- 1 CI c:> CI d C« to * - dCO =0 d CO - 1 ci 1 1 1 - 1 1 t^ d d .i ■suxofi - 1 1 1 « - 1 [ - 1 1 lO - I CO ® ■* d to 1 r* i^ U5 - 1 1 1 1 - - I - coco t^ ^ •3j<)uisnj«{j 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 I 1 1 1 1 01 1 t^ CO CO 1 >n 1 1 0>d CO - 1 1 1 * d 1 1 - -^co ■* ^ CO •piojso3 CO 1 - - i^ a 1 1 1 1 >« ^ Tf CI - 2 " CO CO d « 1 ■'T CO •+ - - 1 1 1 - CO CO 1 1 CO 1- d - %■ •U0pifE[3 !0 1 1 1 CO CO CO 1 1 1 r^ - CI - CO 1^ - « 1 r^ rl- i^ - d 1 CO - I^ CO ^ d - CO CO ^ -5; puE aiaiusog ^' — !> g •Suiqjifia I 1 1 1 « -" 1 1 1 1 ce CO CO -« COCC lO CI d 1 c: - - d t^ TO 1 1 1 - 1 1 1 CO 1 1 CO Tj- ^ 1 -. 1 -< d ^ * - 1 ^ c« ^ U5 * - 1 1- Oi Tf 1 1 1 i d 1 1 e •pnE[fE.^\ ^ •SniddEf[ - 1 1 1 1 - 1 1 1 1 1 1 UO CI -• CO CO d d CO - 1 * CO 0> 1 - 1 1 - 1 f 1 1 CO in o 35 pE3]suny - 1 - - 1 1 1 1 1 c< 1 1 1 - 1 to 1 d - d 1 -i- 1- 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 ^ d 1 o ■pjojjaqx lO 1 -« t Tt- CO — 1 1 1 CO CO d - 1 - I^ r^ iO 1 CO 1 d CO !> - 1 - 1 d to ^ d 1 1 1 1 ^ •oiEqjgBMS a •qDlipunB-j -III-* CO CI 1 - - CO r^ - CO 1 0; CI to d CO d I CO 1.0 - d 1 1 to to CO - 1 1 1 t^ -c puE pjojjii\[ c •3lltJ3ABI3 1 1 - 1 CI a I 1 1 1 - - -J- t CI -■ - CO I - -r 1 CO ■* t 1 1 I - d CO •<*- 1 - - I? puE unppo^ '5 M 1 1 1 o CO -^ UO 1 1 CO - 1 1 d a r^ ct CI - -" d c^ 1 CO 1 - - C!> 1 - - Oi CI ^^ i= •miAT s,3U!}i "* " ^ ] M >H 1 C4 1 -1111 1 - - I f^ iC d - 1 - 1 •»• d 1 - 1 1 1 1 d 1 1 1 - - CO I •pEajsiisH CI 1 1 CO -I* c^ 1 1 i I - 1 1 - 1 CO * d d 1.0 CI i -' •+ to 1 - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 CO d in •ssojDl|inr) " O •iraA'l I 1 1 1 1 ! - 1 - , - 1 - 1 1 to d ( - 1 - 1 - 1 1 1 - 1 1 1 1 1 - » 1 - d « u aSpiiqss-ii « O 1 — 1 "i* CO I 1 1 1 — I CI CO 1 C; CI o> to CI CI 1 1- - r^ 1 - 1 1 1 1 1 d 1 1 J^ CJ •ooqsjojf ^ "^ 3 n « ( 1 i d I CO 1 - 1 CI 1 CO d 1 1 CJ) T ■* •s333|J " " > - F- i -• CO ci - i 1 U5 to - - - 1 * CO 1 1 1 ! 1 1 1 - 1 1 CO d ■^ o •s.qiiEj'lS CO CO CI 1 CO CO Oto CO i - rr - 1 1 1 1 CI - CI t^ - 1 CJ - „ ^ •aiEq3u;dJ3; '^ 3 - 1 I 1 1 1 d - -1 CO 1- d CO ! d 1 UO d I 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 CI 1 1 d 02 ct •2ai!|Dog sc ■spBAidaQ o - 1 1 o r^ - - 1 1 o e< - - 1 to = OS to CO 1 - to — 1 - 1 1 - to -4- - 1 1 ojto r* ■= i — i 1 CO ^ d ' d to d - CO 1 CO - CO - 1 1 1 1 - 1 1 i 1 d d ■^ CJ ■PRBOia • ^^ -v^ CO d d 1 1 CO CO CO - 1 - 1 1 1 d CI 1 - uo o> CO « ■lllEqS].\V " ■^ < CJ » 1 ' s ' • s 1 1 1 1 i > ^ i > ' ■ U I U ^ I ■ I s * D u C o i i = - I |*g • • « ■ 3 S 2 §-£••' -= o III ■ ' •a 9 5 * 3 3 3 2 11" ■ s s a - 1_ 2 3 Ci 3 S II... J. > > yl- ■ ■«■ ii i 2-2 . . I .5 > SJ 5? . . . « . 691 i -3 i i 2 a; , , "=■? g s 3 3 < a: 1 ■S c o - 1: " g ' = • II-! o ■= - :; " s • 3 B « s g^ ,•= ■- .i "o - « = o s i 2^ . i! 2 W o 1) > . 2 — = = il if 2 " '5 2 - .2-1 3 2 3 ^-Ill-Sjl -'s - 2 Sii = £ .- := ^ ^ u - a 3.= ^ "^ ' ■5.513.-5 1^ -■= •■Hao-SS-o^ a— 3j2-^J3mO w - .. ,. ■; ._ -^ .g — 5^ "-5 = " S-3 ^ !ll|lilt! > ^ 3 ^ -.^ .X 3 I/-, a = oj - ■= -S ~ 2 S ■= 3~.32.S''-C3- 0'>— 5^----3o i-3_. 2„goo-^ ■-3-5 2 , ■^ _aj .— 1> CJ ^ , 2-s'^ 2 «;!;.= - B -J c .5 ■ »• S i: - ••■5^2 3 S S £ 15 -o 1 EJI o-g I— t 0) •— ™ 3 Q " 5i »: J =4 'A 1 ^ T3 -D «r tff ? u < £ i -a 2 uT 'a -'2 1 <^, (O03 CO ^ C^ I^ — ^rt W •* t^CC CT) x — inai— — ooj 00 r^ ct^ cc « — o ^ -T CO o a. a (U Oh =^5 or-occco - c»« - r^ i^-^ "^^ ^ ^ '^ c^ 1^* r* ^ CO zc E ZO o — o "5- C) a> CO O CO c< coo u5 r^co CO COCO a — CO c lo c* 1^00 O C»_ C) CO - r^OCD '^ o uO — 05 — ai r^to CO CO Oi — c> to O CO c* 5 S- zp s h2 i* 1 i2Q -^ O^ 003 tO Ci CO r^ CO CiCO C* - — CO 010 CI T^-fi-t^ .CO — HCtC* — '**^ OiCor^o occ^-^ct^c^ O I^ ^ C© Cf ct c« , TCO CO CI "^ o H t-H o 04 « a o H X o c o o o o CT lO o to o o cu 6C iC bO W) to ' 'j^ .£ - -E = - ? at ^ (u S 5 ^ 1) a ZJ ^ V 0} ~ -"^ 'i ^^.'^. ^^"^ c; o (I' 0) (u ^ ."S o o o o c i^ J ►:»■ '^ "^ "^ *^ i-.i rx CO zq «tcc «-0'^— coco e* — 1.0 UO — o ».o -^co 'X: I-- CO ■* c* "T O CO Oi C51CO •* -to ^ca o- -**a)COc< c< o »nac CO « «-• -■ - za ■^ - C f^CO CO 01 CO !>■ »-0 — 5t» t '^^ ^ ^- "^- ■»? CO UO CO - CO C* U5 CO C^ O)- ■^ cT UJ .s CO ^ iflco r^r^ CO CO c* rj- -r CO - '^ 1/5 — coo — — »^»-'5 'l-Ol-CO « C0I>C7) o o r* c* - ^P jO '3 za e« to r^ — o r* ^'^ . et o t^co -^ O) o -^ ^ o xj "3 1 ■"- "^^ '"^ ^ •r^ CO* r^ CO d^ ^ c^" c^" c» ■* '-c» o ci — -^ O H O W kJ u o o o o o o C* O O O O 3 . . — — CI c< vt^ . . . . ^ 6X1 tJ3 tC tC I U 3J .= = " =^ - 2 iJ -5 •"* — ^ '-o -^ o O 000 J >::_=■:- ;? a 2 a H < U I- M 0" = o a 5-* o --<= <* a Z H P- «3 I^ lllllllllllll 1 I I i I t I I 1 I o t > t I I I 1 I ■ I I II I t I • I o &1. o 3 o O I i I I t I I I I ■ I t I II I I I I ■ I I I I I 1 I I I 4 ( I ■ * I ■ I f I t I = I I * • • fl — '-S "-S '^ "5 ^ ^ ^ 'S '-5 -5 -o "C N c( CO Tj- oco r-03 oj o -^ d CO ^0 O* 202. E 2 36 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE o c a a o — I > U^ - CO I I I I I < o o o o o o o I I I I I I I I a o o » cS - . - - > t» r^ l^ e* i^ = t^ I I I I I I !^ I I I 0)!0 «) O u-a. 1 O 0,^ I c a. 3 ■ •r > a» QL' ni > \l 71 ;&& •e ' M t I I I I : I I c» c) c* c« ct e* ci o o o o o 2 1 I I I I I I o o o o o o o ■* C3 C» CI Cf o o o o o CI O O iC o (S c* - c* ■3 . . I g : .- : j-.l ■ (J w C. o o o r CO U5 cc I CO , CI -- B ° ' I to o - , CO n 3 (fl U a u ^ (u ^ ^ i* ° ^ 5 ■« I I I I C< Cf « III I ' ■»^ CT o 'to I I c* — 1- U j- ^ (J tn C 3 a •- O . t. -= o 5 5 .2 Q. 3 I _3 lO C CD «CO.S -^ I 1 * * •■ CO CI ( I , CO I "-■ , c< I I 00 c* , § I ItO , « , Si , CO 1 CO I I »o CO ^ ^ t ^ - J I o o ■*■>)■ -^ I I I *^ o a — i« *« 1) ^ W CO ^H cj »^ >• :^ I I I o o o w s a. G u ^ Q> .!; £ = a. S = '- = .' - a. 5 . ^ 8 =-K I I I I I I « C< M C* « ■* o o o o o 1 I I > I I I O O O O O CI o 1 I 2 CI - 1 2 2 3 CO 0)X p I 5 '-.--' 6 O I 1 I CO I -. ■+ - 00 O S O O I o 00 OltO CO I I CO I ' to I to I o I I I e^ o o I I M- Tf- -f- ^ C< C< C» CI o c o o o o CC CO CO CO O) CO CO ^ I to I ' CO O CO lO CO t o CO CO I CO I o 2 o o P aO = — C3 - I I iO O O ■+ o — C< Ct c* « O D O o o O C* C* O Ol u f I CO I I C) I a* 2 2 2 2 S 2 f^ CO CO CO 00 CO I I I I I O I I -• (O CO CO CO I o I I I I - I O o O O o coco CO COCO to 1 I I I I I I to O Tj- CT B 2 B I to 1 esci o ■Si "S 5 a. :jx ,■=.0 S SIM cc .-3 r: = - K = 5= S £ -5..= % tp^ hue cull l* -^ ' C- a. ■y. i^ifjir---^ Ss:^ bO.= -^ •I ^ ? 5 -e rt . cj) : (ti - ^ :>^ r- : ua wOXPO ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. 37 w a ■< a if vork, uch anied cek? -3 t t 1 1 1 1 - oj i, aJ .^ -:3 "^ 2 C 00 t 1 1 1 I I 00 "■ "" "^ ^ cT o ^ . -'H.a ■y i 5 S 5„. -^^ -* o " "6 £ «^ 1 1 f< » '^r? "■ ^ - 1 1 -^ « CO ■o e^ m© CO u? to 00 to < ^ *Q - 1 1 1 1 CO 1 1^ I to o 1 £ t - "O o (TJ o - a « « 3 1 1 1 ~ 1 CO JO 5 03^0= CD (n rj- r^(o to I^ c* O CO 0^ to 'j-r^ 1 - 1 1 1 1 1 2 t 3 B * I 1 o u 2 1 1 o ^ CO lO'-O o CO CD o i o 2 O CO ^ ■<*• co*^ o -o t^ a • 1 ^o ^ c o C3t^ 1 1 1 1 1 r^ • 1 1 ! ; 1 1 rt . . ^ . ^ I I oJ "^ CO ' • - -^ , S3 ,< ■ 2 2 e» e» M T*. « c* I o H as S > 2 a a. T c «^ s> (C- g o- ? E S 3- (L» CO ?• !> • I CO 'O It I I * 1 c» o O C) C* CO ^ . 3 ® * ^ ° "3 • ' ® I I I > ) I I , O 0> O) O O OS , , o , -^j- o CO r>- r^ c« o> , - I t r ( I I . I c 2 o 2 ^ o ^ I iNOir->Z ' S Jill I « g (O ' to .a <» I S £ £ a o ' ^T3 - J! = 2 o- a o '<^ coco CO CO CO S §■^■S■■ S 2 5 5 '^■ CJ ^ -O V ^ a"" ^ i e Si ^ a CO -o 1 o u :: 1 i" ^ Q. o o u 2 ' CO o r^ t^ t^ 1 1^ . c< . o r^ O J ss c ' COC* ' CIJ ti 2 OJ := 99 CO ; s :co CO -o o 1 I c 1 1 •^ o ' t o c< o O o '^ p. ' 1 o CO o I 1 ":* n •"* «« 1 ' • t-< o '^ i o a w « ■* ■^ -" •" JZ > f-, - w Pill*! I CO I CO CO t^ I 'I- CO - 2 I o • 5; a I ^ " Hit. CO coto ^ IS a Q 5 y =-S 5 - ? K 1 o 1 o 1 o 1 • 1 * 1 o o ■~> n o o 1 fM o — '^ ■^ •^ -n u to CO o r cd I > I I I I I C* . W5 •*■ ■* ^ O -^ ' c» « — c< c* > a »- n „ T 2 a; 5-; CO o t^co rv CO eo I J. . S 2 'H 2 • c 2 gm III' - I > OJ CD (^ a> " a> eg ■a p4 r^ c» »o ■^ • 1 • O 1 I . . . "^ ^ lOCO I I rvco I 0)0) I t I - I I - O CO eo CO CO CO ^ CO I I I I 202. ' rscQO 60 ?:- I I I I 9 1 I I I t I II ( ■ ^5»«ft;; a a * S ojo W) c -a a ^ g g aw a^ . - i„ ^ « ^ a E3 SKOoDti.ujE-lr'S?? c- m - bO ^fl til ti 'E..= "^ ,E .5 a 2 T j; >■• o > CatZOSOO c>i = -S . _ t S = •= 5" 0^ 4> - a a — J ^ 7 .= =1 = -. ?- a I E gg-f = 2 S> U0n£ Si4i^ag 38 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE X fill- 1 0)0>0) « I ' § - 1 1 . , c o o c o c o o e.co 05 95 lato (O « 1 1 1 1 1 1 to 1 i (O !0 ciei o ■-■J 1 1 V o 40 1 11-11 3 £ O C O O C5 t^ CO tJJ -^ -^ I I I ■5! ■— _ " o -o ? S «>> 5 i; > "U > •^ I I I 1 1 I to 1 ooooocco "O I I I I I I to I .OOOOOOO- I I I k/5 W O • 2 2 2 2 * ° 2 2 to I I I to II t I to I I t5 := t< = S S o S- 5^(^l "3 CO •* 1 CC O O CO 2 - - I 1 1 1 1 , to S <0 £ to 5 CO 1 - " c» 1 1 O CO CO o o t; o t5 £ 2 a o to CO « "cT o> ■ £ 2 o D-2 to C< 1 to CO 2 2 1 to o 1 t: I r o I I I s 'I o :^ — CO — CI o c-2 a. ^to I ^ I O CO ft - I I e I I ' coco CO *CO ■» CO I I I 1 I I I OOO OOcL oooooo o (^ CO oco icocot ci-n-cocococo ■* 1 1 I 1 I ^':, ■ CO I - I - CO coco I « 'i- II I CM I I I I I I I I I t*- cj ^ a cs ( 1 1 1 I U( *o , o o o o o r^ — ■— tfi ^* r. o -1 n o 3 o , 1 I 1 I I 1 O to C. CJ c^. ClCl o* -ti CI , I I i coco c I C i I .Si 2 _ S 2-1 ~ 3 '^ .^ I I t I 1 I CO to y . I I I .„_-,„„.._„•= UOCOUO £0003000— |£00 ■«iiiilitoto| toil .ooocoooo" eodei I _ ' o ■ CO I to I to CO « fa Pi o OS o J HI O c3 CI &. o u o "^ '' :3 u I u • H«» ■rco-i-iccooc^o 1 too WW*- — — —^^w -www ..JOCfO'OCOlMCJCJ IC*I ■-.^iliiii ir^i" to , I c» c _£ • O C5 I - « CD » U 1 E « CO >.003 , 2 ■^ 2 • CO *" - , I (U 1- ^co 1 ^£ c I I I I CO coco o 27 Co: o o> I I 5^2 2 2 S 2 ^ CO UOCO I CO to I I I C1 I I cote to 1^ Tj- Tj- I I I I I I c o o c o o c> t^ CO CO CO CO I I I I I I C I > II to *— U ^ W CC ~ I I I 1 I 1 I I .cooooooo oooooooo ■^ I I I I I I I I ^ OO^OClOCJOOl 1 Hi I I I I O CO UO I £ £ O I I I c?) ei c» s f^ I I I I '5«< jf O O "D ^ "O o I ■^ ■»oo r- .; ■ - I I CS I I ■ I- I I CO I ■ I CI o O 1 o to t ■" O o-^»> O » ^_4 =< ,_ CJ -^ c^ es c; y •^ > > 2 * • ' • to . . . I V I .o m I I2. I I . C< 03 I "5 'I- 3 «i .-t re SI o o (^to to I r~-to I CO COCO 5 _£ ' ' r I I L. 2 2 B ^ ' ' c< c» -^ 1 CO CO I I t - I I >.o I •^ >> ( o u s ^ «i = »i "-"O . S " 5 t; i* c T3 Mm ■= = .5 = E u) cr. ■>; - w ; r Pi O iO jJSi = t3 n U Sff •r o > . S K S3 a- S tc.* -3 ? — s ;?- i s : '* — "^ " S M Sf :3 •: i o £ 1> £ = <^r- ►J3 r-P=:« ^2 c= c> S = =; »•, •= c o ^ . A. i c - ■ ; cj z ti — I — ._ ," en s ^ S-~"Q.r-CJ — 2C^O ■a-c .= r= T3 =; = til tc'E- s 3 .= " t 5; ti ^ 3 3 O ^ C3 I- ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. 39 u S •■i ■1 < Piece-work, how much can be earnctl per Week ? T3 1" i 2 - a^ ' = J! = ; .Si o -3 ^"3 1h — ,5 a ^ «■: ~ a; 6 » - s - ~ 3 S 3 3 ■^ £005 <0<0 !0 1 ^ - 1 1 ( 1 « 9 ca a. I 1 CO 1 to UO CO ( « CO T3 feoo C^co CO 1 1 CO 1 ■**cOa 333 coco If CO 1 1 1 1 -J , . 1 1 ■ ■ ■=• ' ' ' ' ' O 1 1 ■ 1 1 1 CO CO r 1 1 11 ^ -H -. f-l « • • CI CO • • 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 a o i tn ■< o a ^ .1111. . nn nn o 2 o o ~j 1 7 1 1 1 1 2 '" 2 "" '^ " 1 1 r ^11 II gill 111 1 . S 1 1 .r: 1 1 I e. 1 1 1 -, .1 1 , p , t CO 1 fill I 1 1 1 9 y 1 1 "to ? 6 S i - CI- •2 " ^ o .^ ^ ., .^ CO 1 5 * " ** ** a ^ •*■ =» ~ 2 2' ^ -ji o r^'-o CO coco „. - 1 1 1 r n-H . 1 CO 1 crt •O 1 1 1 1 fy^ 10) 1 u 3 bo Jo; 1 " -a I b • ; • ' • ' 1 S a »3 ^ • c § 1 '^ 1 . S . ,0 7 1 ! — <«co 1 = - I c 1 CO ;lJLi, - .^ • -g- a- » 1 C5t^ I 1 1 JO -• S- a'2 2c2 1 l^eococo ■0 III n rO 22'S CO m 1 1 1 - till CO CO . i.i..i^ 21? I t t 1 1 . ■ 1 1 I 1 1 1 t 1 1 u >* *5 1 6 z »— < Ol. s « o <: ■"= £ = S S •« ' 1 1 , ■ ' ' ' ' • o o 1 2 ' ^ 77 1 1 ' ' ,- . - 2 - ■ 2 2 2 , 1 . I 1 . i 1 1 , 1 . I 1 1 1 CI » 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 CO ^o •-' •■Ti»-^»iC I 1 * 1 1 -^ 1 1 1 1 1 , . 1 1 ' «= . '^ ' 33 ' 3 J:>- • • '^ ' ' ' 1 ' 1 . Ct . C; C( I COV" 1 I 1 1 tC a ■s 1 , •2 CO c. 1 CO 1 CO 1 CO • CO 1 i.-ii"." ^ si' - =" -2 2 '^ca ro 1 t^co 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 - 1111 1 CO CO £! ' ' ' S ' 2 — c* -^ rs CO ^ 1 r 1 1 1 (_ o " i» c; •^ ' 1 1 1 1 • 1 < ' CO ^ • > > 2 ■^ 1 « 2 1 1 I 1 1 1 1 1 • 1 • J 1 I , II , III II 2°>.<^ 2'2i I 1 1 I 1 • 1 1 1 ■ 1 1 1(1* * 1 • ( 1 * ■ 1 1 1 to . 7 1 1 (^ >< ij M a; '^' 1 ) 1 1 . 1 . 1 1 (^ O lO lO iC O '<1- 2 o o o , o , o , ^CO III 1 1 1 I 1 1 1 000 « c« SiOlOi. iiiii 1 1 1 1 1 CO W5 , CO , . 00 ^ -■«•— I'-ll'llg^ III' d 1 1 1 1 10 IM III) ■ III ■ III 1 • 1(1 t • III t o i < 2 u o Q T 5 " § '^: a. ■If 111-31 ^- S i 2 ."■!.. ^- ^ y 1 1 « '^ 0^ OHO I^ CO 1 a> 1 i I 1 1 t 1 «. cj . s = =s :- § = ^ ^ Si ' 1 ' 1 1 '1 §!<=■ ' ' ■ t. W 0> -^"^ -^ w) TtCO CO C4 ^■ = 131 •2'^> ' > ■i=.2222' CO CO 1 1 l» 1 1 1 1 1 CO C44 li-'lC^liCO iiitclCO'4- COCO - 1 C^co 1 ro I C5 I ^ 1 1 1 .a 1 n 1 ■ 1 .«> . 1 1 3 • • • CO CO 1 1 . 1 I ^ D ' D o: '^' • . • 1 . I • • ^ * . . 1 . I 1 ■ 2 c^ 1 < 1 1 1 1 I i CO ■ 1 1 5 1 . . 1 . , 1 1 1 1 ^ .0 uo CO - 6 - c< « ' 2 1 *> ■ « 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 • 1 CO II, ■2.-.i.i..222i 1 11* 1 ( 1 ^ 1 1 "^ I 1 1 -3 1 * 1 . 1 1 111! 1 ■ 1 1 I 1 t 1 t i t 1 1 1 1 > i t ^) 1 1 1 1 1 • 1 ■ 1 1 , , 1 1 1 1 >< 1 1 1 •• 1 g 1 1 1 1 • 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 ^ ■ ■ ' aJ • s. ■ t; >.• ■ S.2 • ■ m-2e^ S 'I. IIIII ■ 1 1 1 1 I 1 .5 ' • &1 :? -5 1 2 J^^ 3 £ S = Si S = .= «>> • I ) 1 1 1 t 1 1 1 1 1 1 , ■ 1 • t ■ 1 ■ Sill.,,, a ' '.?■§>' ' " to M 5. = 2 .= .= iijil'li ■ 1 I 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 ti) s5 2|;o ill' 202. E4 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE Appendix (G.) — continued. W oroceedinff to the inquiry respecting the annual income procured by agricultural labourers throughout Norfolk d Sutiolk the only means of satisfai'torily determining this question appeared to me to consist in ol)taiiung from as firmer^' as nos'ible an account of the income ot the labourers in their own employment. This could not be accom- r 1 prl with the necessary accuracy amongst tlic least skilful and intelligent farmers, because this class keep no accounts, and are not accustomed to that minute accuracy in details necessary In render the results valuable. I vvas therefore con- f ■ i e I to content nivself with seeking the intormatiou which I desired to collect from a class of farmers which I knew to bc^ses^ the requisite qualifications for making accurate replies. The returns are therefore, to be accumulated evideuce ot the average income of labourers employed by farmers of capital, and of more than an average degree of skill, scatttred over the whole surface of Norfolk and Suffolk. In order to procure these returns, I issued a circular with the following questions; and I received 54 replies, prepared with great precision and care. In the replies to the circular, the circumstances of each labourer's family were separately enumerated, his name in eacii case being given. Name? Age? Number of children under 10 years ot age, residing at home? Number of children above 1 0, residing at home ? Annual amount of wages for day labour ? Annua! amount of wages for task-work ? Harvest wages ? Annual amount of earnings of wife? Annual amount of earnings of children? Value of corn gleaned ? Rent of house ? Has he a garden or allotment, and, if so, of what size ? "Is he allowed to cut fuel free of charge ? Has he any common right? Does he keep a pig or a donkey ; if so, has he any, and what, privileges, to enable him to feed his pig or donkey? Does he possess any other source of income, and if so, what is its annual value ? The answers to these circulars furnished me with an account of 539 labourers' familes, with sufficient accuracy to enable n.e to rjassify the results so as, first, to exhibit the average annual income of each class; and, secondly, to divide that annual income into its elements, in all cases in which the returns are so accurate as to separate day wages, the earnings from task-woik, harvest wages, the earnings of the wife, and the earnings of the children from each other, respectively. 1st Class— Amoiicf the 539 labourers thus enumerated, were 36 single men, v;hose average annual income amounted to ■i5 I. 1 J. 41 d. In Qf» of these cases the earnings obtained by day-work were specified, the average annual amount being 18/. 10.S. 6rf. In five of these cases the earnings obtained by task-work were specified, the average annual amount being 14/. 6s. \od. In 27 of these cases the harvest wages were specified, the average amount being 4/. 19^. i^\d. 2d Class In 64 families there were no children, or at least none residing at home; and the average annual income of the family was 30/. 12 s. lOj^/. In 58 of these cases the earnings obtained by day-work were specified, the average annual amount being 15/. 125. 3f (f. In 43 of these cases the earnings obtained by task-work were specified, the average annual amount being 11/. 15*. In 55 of these cases the harvest wages were specified, the average amount being 5/. \s. 1 (/. In 34 of these case the earnings of the wife were specified, the average annual amount being ^l.^s.^d. In 46 of these cases the value of corn gleaned was specified, the average amount being 17s. lo^d. 3d Class. — In i(i6 families the children were all under 10 years of age ; the number of children was 475, or 2J to each family, and the average annual income of the family 32/. 13*. id. In 143 of these cases the earnings obtained by day-woik were specified, the average annual amount being 15/. 155. ijrf. In 96 of these cases the earnings obtained by task-work were 6pecifie -0 ■g 5 s i s ■a E V e -d 5 ■a e g •d u '> a a. B ■a a. a -d V ■g B > Norwich - - - Swaffham - - - Walsingham W^iuondliam Beccles . - - Bur^? St. Edmunds Ipswich . - - Wood bridge - - •94 78 77 33 137 20 55 45 27 76 18 3>9 189 187 100 297 301 •74 186 295 89 (253 '31 '31 29 178 102 38 241 96 81 '9 13" 76 32 319 •74 383 log 452 265 90 293 161 368 109 446 260 90 326 82 113 23 46 200 129 35 212 60 68 •7 40 169 88 31 352 168 330 37 108 549 306 98 332 160 316 37 108 548 305 98 297 82 105 20 44 202 118 44 167 50 65 15 35 150 89 38 384 259 270 66 98 634 286 84 373 242 265 66 98 626 283 84 Totals - - 1 ,026 676 1.792 1.727 954 685 1.948 1,904 912 609 2,101 [2,037 1834. 18;)5. 1836. 1837. Norwicli - - - Swaffhani - - - ' Walsingham Wvniondhara Beccles ... Bury St. Edmunds - Ipswich , . - Wutjdhridge 340 106 ■34 ■21 60 146 i"5 37 221 67 87 11 54 1 11 73 34 414 240 329 58 122 746 377 99 407 225 318 58 122 7.36 374 99 281 93 103 3' 28 192 106 43 204 58 60 23 . 23 132 73 3R 426 240 321 58 108 535 384 87 421 228 297 58 108 528 379 87 268 110 •57 22 48 217 116 69 182 76 82 17 36 157 80 67 359 177 269 46 106 497 332 83 357 168 260 46 106 495 324 83 222 135 >i5 46 42 205 102 48 150 84 70 29 32 166 67 36 286 "53 202 50 57 396 211 76 283 150 200 50 67 392 210 76 Totals - - 959 i C58 1-2,385 2.3^9 877 609 2,159 2,106 1,007 1 697 1,869 1,839 915 634 1.431 1,418 202. 42 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE. •39g ainajiia |n paig — u,«oii^un ssaiim ;n poua^ | •sjEa\ o,«i UBin .ijoiu ||i jaticunjyj •SJM.i OMj UEql s5-i| 111 Jjqnin >^ •jBjf Olio UEC|i SS9| IK i3qiunj\i •sqiiioui MIS iiBin so| ||i jaqmnfj ■sqjuoui aaiqi iieqi ssj| qi Jaquin\,->3M alio ueqi s';3[ ||i .logmn-^ | •pailiaipi'. iia |« ||i .ii>qiiins[ I ■SO! •SJna.f Q AM ucql ajoul .-ijji|l papisaJ nq^^. J^gniiiNj -sjcat nK\ uBqi 6J ;| -sgiumu xis llHqi ssa| aJJql papisaj oq« jaquins; ; I ■<;i|iii()m a^Jg i in!q> ssa| aiaqi p.ipisjj og » J-iq'un\; qiuom aiio ucqi S5a| ajaqi paplsaJ og « J^qmnNj | •!,aa,vi n tiegi ssai aJaqi papisjj oqw jaqiiiny .,111'is aiii.Cii V. Ill a;n.iH"i"! iq^"'"q j^g'iii'V I W to •& ^ Oh < •00 1 pile o6liaa«iaq Ji qillil^J •o6 piiB 8 uaavM-iq ajgrnns; | •oy piiB 0^ iia^maq laqmnfj | •ol pun 09 lla■|A^lag jaqiiin,\[ | ■oc) pun oS iiaaM;aq .laqiiiiif^ •oS pim ot uaaAU^q jagmnM ■of piiB og iiaaA>iag Jjqiiin>|[ •o£ piin 05 uaa.maq Jaglun^J ■oz pu Eoi iiaa.«iaq jag iun^fj I ^-01 piiE Q uaamau jaqiiiiii^ •e puB o iiaav.iaq jaqmiif^ | ■pi(i sjHaV z Japun J.^qnin^; O ~ 2: — t^ -X t^ a; > 1-3 *-* M H f^ CC 9J ^ •sassnio IIB JO 'suicpij •6 O) EUIOJJ S|J19 •91 oj 6 tuojj S|air) •tiuyiii puE pjo iiaiuo,Y\ •paiqnsip ^ii.iBJniliuai iiainn\\ •pai|)oq-a[qv U3iiio\\ ■6 0} z uiojj sXiiy •91 OJ 6nioij vqjnoj^ •anyiii pun p|o uai\; •pa|qBsip ifjUBJodiuaj iiaj^ •pa!|.oq-.i| rH Tj--!hClCO C4 I II I — 1 CO I I I « O&CO CDajiOCO^Q -f O — O CO CI co^ o r^CD" CO— Cf (C CD CO CO CO coco Tj- - O CO CO 1 03 CI CI 1^ C* d CO COCD o 3 ^£;p«2 ■ CO -^ C0C5 CO lOOil^ir^TfQ; — CO t^ <-' <3;CO ci -i- I^ — « « « COCO r^ r^ CO c^co "^ l^ d oioo CI i — — d C3i ( 10 O - CI cc 1^ - T -r - ■c: l^i^iOdCo coi^ ►^ -1 CI I el 1:/ " iSflt tpJGjijr ijiSr. uo asnoijJiJo^Y "! Suiiiiuuiaj j.iquinj^ ci ci w — -, M „ •poijod atuBs ui paSjBipsip joquin*^ O O:co o tocoonco co iljSl puE gGgl Jsqi'aosQ JS'E uaam.iq pauuupe jaqumjij •968! jaqiuaoaQ i<;iS 9i|l 110 3snoi|5[iow ill eiadnnj }o jaquinf; COCO r^i^r^cocomo CI — r^c^io — CO — CI d CI — r^ .* - - o *-* p lb O ' ' = ^ = = ' — tnpj£ — T3 — _ ^ J ■= 5Pi J = 1 iS ^q :2 X i :^ := p ^ o S : :5 ^ ^ = J5 =q » '- z; T-, a, a: •;> ? to 3 I ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. 43 •a3E 3im jtx3ju(iaiq— uMoii ^unssjHIIIJ" P"!-''>d_l ' ^EO.C OMi iiBqi 3J01U l|i JaqmntJ •s.i8.>f OMX Heqi 6S3[ II! JaqmnNl. •jna^ QUO ucm ssa| |l! ji;<|iiinM •sqiuoiu IIS ueqi S83| ||i, jaqmiim | •sqjuoiu 33jqi iieqi s<3| HJJaq'i'nM | •qwoui 3U0 unqi ssa] \\\ J3qiuii,\j | ■!)D3« D i mqi SS3| II! J 3qiun jl^ •p3iiimpii tl3qAi II! ■i.iqmnfj | •SO .2 3 •sjb3jC o.wi uEqj 3J0UI 3J3qi paptoJ oq« J3quiii>tJ_ •SjESiC OMi treqi ss3[ 3i3qi papisaj oqM J3qain\r | •jRD/C 3110 ueqi SS3I 3J3qi papisaj oqM jjqiun jj | •si[iiioai HIS UBUl SS3I aja qi papisaj oq'" JaqmnjJ | • sqiaoiii 33iqi "Eg) ss3| ajaqi p3pis3j oqa jaqniiifj | •qiuoui 3uri usqi ss3| 3jaqi papisJJ oq" J3qain>J | <|33»\ 1! iiEqi !S3| 3 i3qi papisoi oi|i» jaquin;^ | •31E1S gui.Cp E m 3 - n C* C) — « « — Tf CO ' CO C^ -> Ct CO CO^ CO -P«P-P «^«P'^^PHP^Pci: CO CO c< CO oi;o coco ^ co *P 3:; =P wp'P*^ SP'PSP-^J^P ^ CO CO c* *p«=p.f:cp2psE= SPr^22P-p.op=p«>p-pip«p d - - Ti- -tj- 1^ r^ .^^2Pr-P•P"^P"P''PSP-^P»P2P'-P ^Oi— CO— d ■•l-d cocji-^tco oP2PaP-pcPf^2 Oi C O O CO 'J- d CT d CO d — — sp«>p^p o^.^-P!322P2P -Pc^S^P "P '^-l-d Oi»0-*COCO utJCCOCO SP«P^^Pr^ H2cpnP^P^e — COCOCid CiC3i— — O — d d d - - - CI *P«P-.pH2'»p"P .-2=P"P"Pt-P — CO — "OOdr^ooo-^o — c« — d d — — t.po:P=o 'oiinf ipoC uo 3sno}] ut Suiuicmsi J3qain^ ■poijad 3U1B8 ui paSjBqasip jaqmn^ •oiinf i|joe piitJ i{OJEi^ qiSc uaaMjaq panimpB joqainjij •iCgi q^i^IiM qi^c noasnoqjiJOA^m sjadnuj jo jaqnjn/^ ^ « ci -- uocooir-coto »n — ■-• — *-00 co-^ — co OCO eocoio— ■* — r-ooi'-'coco — OO)'* C4 r^ ^ - -* O) Oi Ol coco CO OlCO CO uo CO"© CO — CO C^ 01 ■*CO OXXi O Oj O ^ a F- ^ c* ^ i-" « COCO COOCO"-^CO— "* r*co cxcoi^'-CD — o co-« «.-iCOC< c* •^ f- ^ r- C* c< — « uo coco CO r>> r>- u5 01 o OICOCO Ci CJ)COTj-CO O C< iOC< « CI i- -^ CO -^ <-• vor»cocicoco*^J ■■] J3« 3U0 "gql ssa| [[I Jaqums; | •iiaiimtpi! uaqM ||i jaginiiiyr %ji-.i.Co.»i UB.|1 ajnmaiaqi papi^J "q"^ JaqmnM | Jl.. '.l v/...« >..^-). ^ ; ;__: "sJB3.C QAM ticql Si3| a-iaqi papi^-JJ og^ JJquin fj | riB3.C aiio uRills^ai 3I3H1 p3pis3i »q« .laqiun.Nj [_ :;T;T;;W«'; "Emi s>3| ajagi p3p!S3i oq« Jaqmnf,; | « I 7quimu33Jq »"''q>s«3|3-i3a p '^P^3-'oq»"1""'M I TiJTiW j^iir^Bin ss3| 3i3q> palm^IoqA^ j3qmnM -.,)..■. a„n .iBqi_s^3l^J3qj^p 3P!^3J oi|av Jaq.u nMj^ •31B1S gui?p"B ui 3s^H "'"' l'l""°-"l ""qiI"lM_l •001 pil l! o6 ii33.«)3q j3qtun\T | ■ o6 piiE 03 ua3AU3q JaqiiitiN | •03 piiB oZ, uaaMiaq jaqiiinNi | oi DUB og uaa.maq J3qiim,>j | ■oq piic oS liaj..)aq .isqiunfj | ■og puBQiiiaaAMaq jaqwnM | ■OC puu 01 uasMiaq jaqiunM | •01 piiE S uaaAMJq Jaqiunfj ■5 piiE r, iiaaA\)3q jaqiuiif; | •p|o SJB3,C 7i Japiin .laqnin^r ■S3SSBI3 IJE JO 1 m I I I I ct I I - Cl CI - ^ I « I I c) coco O) cc O C5^ o CD TO 00 « r* \a ■SlUEJUX •6 o> s luojj S|ji9 I I I I d I - m I i CI CI I I C< I I I I r - M I - I I I I I I I I 1 - " « 1 1 CI 1 I I I I I CI - O ° CI CI i^ C* d I t CI >< I I I I I I I I I I I { I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I - I r I I I I I I I I I I r I I CO I I I -1 1 ?Ito i "1^ f ^ IJ J ~ -i- 1^ -t c: CO o-.'-o fiOOO'+C " <0 CO lO O ^«clu3r-.COO03l^ CIO i-"H K--■l-->-~l--H'*■>- c^r^co■^■^T^cQ05 gErf;^c,pc^=:f3 »|22Pap2P!52=>P"'P ;:P«P 2P2pop2p=-p«p«p^»p :¥:-P'=P •91 oj 6"'OJJsi.iiO •uuijin piiE PI" UDinOjV^ .rpop^2^',2='P-P"P^.p^P'pH2Sp=P"P"P ■^Oi'i-'a-o coci 'S--^ o o c^t^'^iA"3 — ;o -pSP2P»P-PS3'^fP=P'^2P'^P-p-P 'i-'rcoP2p5e»P-p=»P i-PhS 'P* »P=P £P-P»P•0P^P•P■£P^P■.P^.P CTjOCD-tTO C000^*^"05— '^O CICOCO.^ COmCImCI •paiqESip ,C[UEJodai3i ii3tuojv\ =p-p=p .^p=P2PH2"P"P'*2"P'P-P"=P JCI"^ CllOi— C0"0- sp»p :p «.p«p-p "P I I O) CI coco t >■ --p «p d •paipoq-ajqE uamoAV «G2P22'P'^''P"P2P2P=P"=P <>PE!P--P=»P2P CO CO o CO ■.p \, :iS: 1-C':C0U3'-CI00O5 — COI^O'-TJ- CI rH ,-. - CI " « ■6 01 z uio,ij siCoy •91 o) 6 aiojj sq)no\ •nijipii puB pio II3H r-E^t«P::P"P'^=p-'P<-P "P=P2P'-P"!p=p»P ^ cV -F — l^CO C3CO CD C3i »0 O 1^ CO »0 i^ - ":p.-p«p^:-p«PH2«pop<,p^P2p«p i-^co T •-• CO CI OJ «:j 1^ — cji l^ o CI ,E "P -^i-PoP-'P 2P=P>=P<«P»P°P "P CG0O«coi^om^r^coco — »o ol^ ^^«prp2p«p33,p-p5popr:pr;;^p C^TCO coci r- i^iococj;-rcic»co — d T-« ^COd — ►^<.P"P-^E"P»P=P2P=-P"P2P«P<-'P"P-'P S:"P"p'^=P.^3S!PH2^P-^=-p-.'PrP-P o^ cS --^ — -i-co CO o;CD oa co o co to en coco >n^ d cOd -. tj-uom-uoto ccd ~„CO --H" dCOd d -«-COC0 - -Tl-dTf-d- •pajqEsip Aiui;aocliU3i ii3j\[ •paipoq-3|qn n3j\r •jaqtiiaid.isqioEojaunf qinfi imuj sjaoiyQ pipP^W -fq osnoqvoA\ "! p3p"311E tssinpis Jo sdseq jo jsqttmfj •jsqoisjdss V°^ "" 35""H "i SuiuiBiua.! januiniv[ 2P UOOO — T -tCO O T CI CO 00 lO -J TO^CO'-CIiOcldl^TO ^ "T cocooo d 1^0*0— d i^— o CI cocoo in •poijsd 3U1BS aqi UI paSaEqosip jaqiuufj '.[aqiuaj -clog MloC pu« 3U"f "II08 uoaujaq psjiiuipi; jaqainfj •iegi stinf qwS uo 3snoii!iiOjV\ ui sjsclnnd jo isqiun^ i^T-co TCO — iccodcodco coco CO d OiCO T - OCO TT — COd T'OT'-' -CO COCO OjCOI^COOO -^CO « >0 m£> 01 d ITS TCOOC0"^T OdCO-^dCOCO'^Old --dd-OOOCO-J- C3)TO c» O lO CI CI — CO — — TO l^OJOd O C31— OITCOCOOJ o O 1 2 ^ ■o^ n.~ oo'j », 2 'r S," o sr=,o2-i5 I I I I i 5 1 «< I = i; I 1 I I "> ■= " b .2 ?; j)»3jo paiq — »AH)ri!|iin S53u|[[ id pnujj •sjna.C c "Bqi ajoin pi i^qmn^ •SiBa\ o UBql ssa[ qi jdqiit'i,^ ub^A'b UHiji ssa[ III Jdqmni^ •sqllloiug urql S-:3| ||1 Joqiuny •sqiuoni 8 tiHqis«;d| ||| jaqtun,^ *qiti'>j u 3 S3-- O 3 a, *SJB3\' T, Ucql 9J01U aj.lllJ prtpisaj OqAV J^qtUlIf^ ■.teaA 1 iiHt|i<:S31 sj^iji papisdj oi|* jaqiiin?^ -sqiinim 9 uetji ssDi ^ijqi papi'Jaj m\\\ jaqtuf.\[ iqilioin Sllnllis-iai sj.^qi pAiiisjj oqAVJ,iqiun^ ■qiiKiiu B «pq» ss.>| ajpqi pjpiSrij o[|m jaqtiin^ }{d^u miRqi ss;>y 9jaqi p.»p|fioa oqA\ jaiitirnj^j ■ajKis^^itiAV"! ^''""HV"*' "1"' l'!-^"''-"! j;}q:iin\T O •z. •001 ptiiJ o6 n.i;i.«ioq jgqriinp^ *o6 puB og ii<33Mi3q J3qar'i,\[ •08 pilB oi II33M]3q jaqutn,^ •qU puB 09 na3Mi.->q .laqmn^ •09 p"B 0? ll33-«ir>q jaqiun^ •oS pirE ot' uaaMl^q .laquin'^ •ot' puB oG iioaM^jq J3qnm>j •06 piJE or- uA^Miaq agquin;^ •OG puB 01 iias.wjaq jaqunif^ •01 puB 9 il3d.\\i9q J^quin^ •S pilB z U33M}9q jaqutnsj I I I I I I I d I - I I I I I I I I I I x I I I I I f I I I - - I - I I I I d - - I I I I r J I CO 'J- el I m I I - c< I I I I I I I I I I I I r I I I I « 01 I 1 I I « _ I „ I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I M I I I (N I I I _ » •p)n S-IR-IV o J^pnii J9tpnn,\J •S3SSBP ||E JO SlUBJUJ I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I » J I I I I I I I I I I I I — CI (M CCCC CCCC CO 1- ^ O ».-D iCc , O 01 CJ o O^O O CO CO O l^ CO — CO ' ?CO O CO I I I J I I I I I I I I I CO I - I « I I I CO I I - I I a W 1 I « I -• 1 CO I I -• - I I I I I' CO r I I CO I I I « r I I I I I — r' •ri^ ci o - - o _ 1^ uo S . . ClCOC^CltD CI 050 OiO * ^"StF I "S^ c ^"P-^SPSP^P-P-P"^ „ 'R HS-PrS-p-P'E'P-E-E^E-E^E-P-P -.nolo =• I-- n-o coio 0)0 10° cSr o ^ © c. TCof-c^StCcoICo o co '6 o) s oioj; spif) Tl-''SXp^''P"Pc)'-l='"-P=PSP.-P2P^P^P-'P"P r-p^p2p^p^ESE-Ef-E"e-E=J:^ "C ■gt "; 6 uiojj s[ji9 -ujyui puB p[o iiaiuo^ •p9(qEsip -Ciuc-iodma; uamo^Y •p3|poq-3[qE uaiiioj^Y "Pj-p^ ^2P_p2P=pop-.p^2p «p.-^p■»e Oi CI I^ CO CO CO d CO -^ O O CI CI r^ - C^OS CO ^p^sp-p..prp=-p=p.^..p.p..p„p,^ i^toojoco toco-(oo'*cr. =»p tC^'sFSr'!?^^ ■'P"P=^;^^2P-P^pc^»P _p »P=<5.p ..p «E^P^,-p,",p,-« j~..Ttoioooo^^co^-TOco-o*o iCZ- (S o> Tf tC , ^ST - ^>S" .S- "" " CTcoco^-ci - cocoXct PrP--!P =p icp-pop^: 'P-P^=>pc.p»E=E - T 1 C» I O CO r- COCO CO CI ^o ct "P'^PSP:? 2P:-=p^p , ^PH3 ic<~-Trl-j-cocoi -f. ■2222--P "p.^2 rp 2pt-p^p.^p2g;p»p3j <'e2P^C:p! -■ ic o — — O — CI ■q- o Olto 000 CI CBOO o CS^CI ^l-^t^^TTC coco KRoj o 03 o 0-+0 00 oidcaco — CO cTto to -1- tococodi^ioo— dr^ci — ocicocooio SrSP^'^ ,S? °'- "^ CO CO - d I^ CO - t^to d to i^ d - CO !>. 03 1^ to ra CO a. 'ffi c _ <.pi o 3-_ CO S - "O tJj^ — Q) — O E- =; = B--:i: o £ = £ Q P a c« fc". (1, ^^, c a G 2 «^^ ■ r- o • « -o 60 1; y e ^•5 3--"-= >><: •- 3; S'S J S c S "O S J ^ -o c FOURTEENTH REPORT tROM SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT, WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, AND APPENDIX. Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed, 14 March 1838. ^ [Jr*rice 6V/.] 202, F I p T i: i: \ T H REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT; WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, AND APPENDIX. Ordered, by The House of Commons, to he Printed, 14 March 1838. 210. [ ii ] Luna, 2';'' die JVave^nbris, 1837. Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the Administration of the Rehef of the Poor, under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act, Ordered, That the Committee consist of Twenty-one Members : Lord John Russell. Mr. Ward. Mr. Fazakerley. Lord Viscount Howick. Mr. Richard Walker. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Poulett Scrope. Mr. Villiers. Mr. Baines. Mr. Miles (Somerset). Mr. Boiling. Mr. Law Hodges. Mr. Lister. Mr. Chichester. Sir Thomas Fremantle. Mr. Slaney. Mr. Bameby. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Liddell. Mr. John Fielden. Mr. Estcourt (Devizes). Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers and Records. Ordered, That Five be the Quorum of the Committee. Jovis, S" die Februarii, 1838. Ordered, That power be given to the Committee to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House. THE REPORT p. iii MINUTES OF EVIDENCE p. 1 APPENDIX p. 21 [ Hi ] R E P () R T. THE SELECT COMMITl'EE appointed to inquire into the Administration of the Relief of the Poor under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act; and who were empowered to report the Minutes of Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House :— TT AVE taken some further Evidence, which they have agreed to report to The House. 14 March 1838. 210. [ iv ] WITNESS. J. P. Kay, Esq., m.d. p. 1 [ 1 ] MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Mercurii, 14° die Mar tit, 1838. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Boiling. Mr. Estcouit. Mr. Fielden. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Hodges. Lord Howick. Mr. Liddell. Mr. Miles. Mr. Scrope. M r. Slaney. Mr.Wakley. MR. FAZAKERLEY in the Chair. James Phillips Kay, Esquire, M. D., again called in ; and further Examined. 4630. Mr. Fielden.'] HAVE you brought the return which I asked for yester- j p k day? — I have brought the return which was given to the Poor Law Commissioners, ' m.'d' **^' and on finding it in the office, I found that it was indorsed by direction of the Poor Law Commissioners, in the following manner: — "This information cannot 14 Maich 1838. be printed, because it discloses the engagements of manufacturers, and on this accouTit it was confidentially communicated." This is the original document, with certain papers, which were private to myself, connected with it. The Com- missioners therefore strongly hesitate as to the propriety of putting in this docu- ment to the Committee, seeing that at the period when that was communicated to them it was indorsed in the manner I stated. 4631. Chairman.] When was that indorsement made? — At the time when it was first communicated to the Commissioners, more than two years ago. 4632. That was a memorandum made by the Commissioners at the time upon the document ? — Yes. The Committee Room was cleared. Motion made : (Mr. Wakleij) — " That Dr. Kay be called upon to produce the documents on which his statements in his report in the year 1835, with reference to steam power, are founded." Amendment proposed : (Lord Howick) — To leave out the words after " that," in order to insert the following ; " the documents appearing to contain information confidentially communicated to Dr. Kay. and not material for the objects of this inquiry, the Committee will not require their production." Question put : " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." Ayes, 2. Noes, 5. M. Fielden. Mr. Liddell. Mr. Wakley. Lord Howick. Mr. Miles. Mr. Boiling. My. Estcourt. The Question as amended put : Noes, 2. Ayes, 5. Mr. Fielden. Mr. Liddell. Mr. Wakley. Lord Howick. Mr. Miles. Mr. Boiling. ^Ir. Estcourt. - 1 0- A James 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE James PJdllips Kay, Esq., m. d., called again. J P K(f Lsq 4*533- Chairman.'] The docmnents to Avhich reference was made, were described *M. D.' by you to be of a confidential nature ? — On applying for them, I stated to the individuals to whom application was made,- that of course the disclosure of their 14 March 1S38. own engaoements, or the engagements of others, would not bo made public ; it was particularly upon such a statement that two very respectable engineers in a io\yn in Lancashire gave me, in writing, a statement of the engines which they had orders for at the time ; and that another most respectable engineer, though he did not give it to me under his own hand, communicated it to me verbally. That was so strongly enjoined upon me that, though I had the strongest desire possible to confirm the statements made by those gentlemen, by references to other persons, I never, upon seeking that confirmation, made use of the name of the individual who had communicated those facts to me. 4634. The communication, then, was made to you upon an understanding that you would not make known the names of the parties who gave you the infor- mation ? — I could not have obtained it on any other terms. 4635. Are there any communications made to .you upon the subject of this return in your Report in 1835, which you do not consider to be of a confidential nature, and which you feel at liberty to read to the Committee ? —There are com- munications relating to two districts which I could read to the Committee with- out any breach of confidence. {The Witness withdrew.) Motion made : (Mr. Wakkj/) — " That Dr. Kay bo called upon to pro- duce, exclusive of the names of individuals, the documents on which his statements in his report in the year 1835, mth reference to steam power, were founded." ^ Amendment proposed : (Mr. Miles) — ■ To leave out the words after " That Dr. Kay," in order to insert the following : " be called in and further examined as to those parts of the documents which he states not to be confidential." Question put : " That the words proposed to be left out stand i)art of the Question." Ayes, 2. Noes, 6. Mr. Fielden. Mr. P. Scrope. Mr. Waklev. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Liddell. Mr. Miles. Mr. Boiling. Mr. Estcourt. The Question as amended, put and carried. Motion made {Mr. Miles), and Question put, " That there be ordered to be laid before this Committee, a return, as far as practicable, of the number of engines erected in the cotton district of Lancashire, and its immediate vicinity, since January 1835, together with the numbers of horse-power of such engines," and carried. James Phillips Kay, Esq., M.D., called again. 4636. CIyiirma)i.~\ You said that there were some of those documents which you did not consider to be of a confidential character? — Upon looking over certain manuscripts in my possession, I think there are two which I may conceive not to be confidential ; I do not recollect that any verbal communication took place with me from those individuals, that the information which they conveyed to me was to be deemed confidential, and I do not find that there is any record that it is confidential in those particular cases ; the one is a letter from Mr. William Taylor, of Preston, dated, " Moss Cottage, Preston, July 20th 1835 ; Dear Sir, In addition to the 1,511 horse steam power employed in Preston, and the immediate neighbour- hood in various manufactories, chiefly cotton, the following arc now being erected; nam ely, Mr. William Taylor, cotton, 30 horses ; ditto cotton, 30 horses ; H. Daw- son, ditto, 40 horses ; F. Sliddon, ditto, 36 horses ; T. Munday, ditto, 30 horses ; Bashall and Company, ditto, 50 horses ; Bashall and Comjjany, ditto, cotton, 50 horses a ON THE POOR I^AW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 3 lim-ses; R. Riley, cotton, 30 horses; R. Riley, cotton, 30 horses,' Mr. Crankshaw, J. P. Ka,/, Est). cotton, 36 horses ; Messrs. Livesey and Leigh, cotton weaving, 20 horses ; JNIr. »'• »• R. ITawkins, cotton, 40 horses ; 422 horse-po\^cr, total ; making in the aggregate 1,033 horses estimated power ; I am, Dear Sir, your's most faithfully, William '4 March 1838. Taylor." 4637-9- ^^Ir- ^/'Ves\] That is, 422 in addition to what had been provionsly erected? — Yes, which corres]ionds with the account given in the table. Then concerning Wigan, I have information from Mr. John S. Heron, who has a large spinning establishment in Wigan ; he states, " Mr. Walker, of Hindley, two miles distant, 40 horse engine, su])i)lied by Mr. Walker, of Bury, engine just set to work, but not supplied with hands; Mr. Pennington, of Hindley, 100 horse engine, just put up, but not at Mork, by Fairbairn; John F. Taylor and Comjiany, of\Vigan, 4;') horse engine, by AValker, of Bury, only building ; James Eckersley, Wigan, 70 horse engine, l)y Haigh and Company (late Lindsay's) ; they also are only raising the building; all the above may be expected to be" 12 months before they are full," meaning full of workmen ; " William Woods, of AA'igan, has lately erected a 70 horse power ; Ainsworth and Johnson, of Wigan, have also lately put up a 30 horse ; neither of the above are full ; ])erhaps \t may be six months ' ci-e they are so." In the report Avhich I made to the Commissioners, these twp firms are put down, William Woods as having an engine of 50 horse power, and Ainsworth and .Tohnson as having an engine of 20 horse power, making an allow- ance for that part of the power which Mas already occupied and supplied with bands ; then the memorandum further states, " Gedlow and Sons, near Wigan', have lately started a 40 horse ; they are not quite, but very near, full ;" that is^not entered in the account which I gave to the Commissioners ; then, " J. H. Heron and Sons, lately started, 20 horse, but it is full. Should yon want the total horse power in the town, send me A\ord ;" tliat also was not entered in the account whicji was communicated to the Poor Law Connnissioners. 4640. Mr. Boiling.] Are those the only communications which vou consider you can mak(> Mithout any breach of confidence ? — I think I might allude to another from :Mr. Bannister Eccles, of Blackburn ; he informed me that " W. and J. Turner, of Blackburn, had engines 40 horse power; W. and II. Honibv arid Company, 100 horse power; Walton Bulcock, near Blackburn, 40 horse power; Eccles, Shorrock, and Company, Darwen, 120 horse power; T. and R. Eccles' Lower Darwen, 30 horse power; Hargreaves and Dugdale, Accrington, 100 horse power: Dugdale and Brothers, near Burnley, 100 horse power;" but that is the oidy communication, beyond those which I have read, which I do not deem confidential ; and it does not, I think, comprise the entire return made for the district alluded to in the communication, except in the case of Blackburn where the engines belonging to Dugdale and Brothers, near Burnley, are included with the other engines in the Blackburn return, making 280 horse power. 4641. C/nnrnian.] With respect to all those returns, those founded ujion com munications that were confidential, as Mell as the others that vou have now read to the Committee, did you take the greatest pains to inforln yourself of the accuracy of your statement ?— Certainly ; and I perceive, on looking to my memo randum, in various instances the authorities for the engines erected or in the course of erec^tion, were derived from two difierent sources, and in some cases from three difierent sources of information; so that I took as much pains as possible to confirm the statement made to me by individuals, by seekino-' for corroborative testimony from other individuals. " 4642. You believe, therefore, that the return made by you in 1835 is founded upon sufficient authority, and is substantially correct?—! certainly have the greatest possible confidence in the statements of the gentlemen ^^ho communi cated to me that information ; I believe they did it peril-otly Im/a fide -uid I havo ni the majority of instances their own memoranda in support of it. ' ' 4643- Mr. Bollivg.] Have you reason to believe that the parties Mho trave you the other communications, and which you do not feel yourself at libertv to disclose, vyere ].arties of equal respectability with those whose names you have given and tluit they were equally competent to give yon the information you Mv't [ at' u •''"''/"'iV'';; '^'^''''' 'liwagement to the testimon/ of Ml. Taylor, Mv. Heron and Mr. Banmster Eccles, whose names are known to every body who is acquainted with that district, as cotton spinners of the hidiest 210. » .■» ^ possible 210. ,v 2 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. P. Kay, Esq. possible respectability, and of the greatest private worth, the evidence was M- B- obtained, in every case, from sources of quite equal respectability, and, in many cases, from persons who had, perhaps, a more intimate technical knowledge of 14 March 1838. ^\^Q increase of steam power that was occurring in the district. 4644. Mr. Miles.] Have many families migrated from Norfolk and Suffolk to the manufacturing districts? — A considerable number; Mr. Muggeridge has stated the number that have migrated, under the Commissioners regula- tions, from Suffolk into the manufacturing districts ; he has also stated, as far as could be ascertained from the inquiries of clerks of unions, the number that migrated without contracts ; and the circumstances attending the migration of those individuals, in both cases, relative to the outfit which was given to them, the expenses of their journey, the amount of pa)Tnent made to them from the poor-rate in the year previous to their migration, and the amount of allowance, if any, which had been made to them in the year succeeding their migration from the county of Suffolk. 4645. To what number do they amount? — Of those who migrated with con- tracts, it appeared that there were in Suffolk 203 families, comprising 1,660 indi- viduals; the amount of relief afforded, during the 12 months preceding the migration, was 1,609/. 6s. S(l.\ the number of individuals to whom this relief extended Avas 1,458 persons ; the amount of relief afforded since the migration, beyond the cost of the outfit and journey, 49 Z. 9^. ; the cost of outfit and journey, 3,330/. 14.. A 4 -have 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE /. P. Kav, Esq. have resided in this neighbourhood I have never known so few people out of employ M. D. at this period of the year, or so little general distress. The question of a return to out-relief to the able-bodied, has twice been mooted at our board during the last 14 Mardi 1838, jjyg weeks, and (I think) has had but two supporters; had out-relief been again gi-anted, the effects would have been briefly these : the occupiers of land would have discharged most of their labourers, and sent them to receive parish pay ; and I know one large farmer who declared publicly that if such a step were taken he would instantly discharge six labourers whose services he did not particularly require at that moment. The labourers, instead of earning full wages, and supporting their families by their industry, would have received a miserable parish allowance, not sufficient to maintain them, and must, in many cases, have had recourse to thieving and poaching, to make up the difference between wages and parish pay ; and, in many cases, the money received from the parish would have been spent at the alehouse, and not have benefited the wife and family. In order to elucidate still further the question of out-relief to able- bodied labourers, I subjoin some statements, from which it appears that few applications for relief from able-bodied labourers occurred before the snow-storm ; they were, for the four weeks preceding the 8th of January, 20, being an average of five per week ; that during the four weeks' continuance of the snow-storm, (viz. from January 8th to February the 5th) the applications were 80, being an average of 20 per week ; that orders for admission to the house, for the same period, were signed for 206 persons, of whom 50 only accepted the offer, and of those 50 several only stayed in a short time. Upon these I must observe, that the applications during the storm, for want of employment, did not amount to the number that might have been expected ; in fact, the applications from the whole 42 united parishes do not amount to the number I have known made in former years from one single parish. It is curious and instructive to compare the present with a period two years distant, and to mark the wonderful change that has taken place in so short a time ; a moral and physical revolution, Avhich is scarcely to be credited. I have annexed the number of applications from able-bodied, in the same four weeks in the year 1836, the year before we were formed into a union ; this present year (as I have stated) they amounted to 81, who all received an offer of admission into the house; in 1836 they reached the enormous number of 1,260, all of whom received parish pay. From all that I have stated, I think it most clearly appears, 1st, that the refusal of out-relief to the able-bodied has been carried into effect, and is approved by a large board of guardians, consisting of men of practical knowledge and great humanity ; 2dly, that the refusal of out- relief to the able-bodied labourers has caused the owners and occupiers of land to give employment to a much greater extent than ever was known ; odly, that the able-bodied labourers are not forced into the house ; 4thly, that the refusal of out-relief to the able-bodied, instead of being oppressive and ciiiel, is proved, by its operation, to be a blessing to the industrious labourer, and that both in a physical and moral point of view. I have the honour to be, dear Sir, yours faith-r fully, J. Kerrich." 4663. Have you other letters from the several chairmen of the unions in Norfolk and Suffolk, to the same purport ? — Certainly, from a considerable number. 4664. What is your impression of the opinion of the boards of guardians generally, throughout Norfolk and Softblk, with reference to the rule of refusing out-door relief to the able-bodied ? — Their opinion I think I might collect solely from their practice, which has l)een entirely adopted upon the simple conviction of the utility of the change, but that opinion receives great additional confirmation from the letters which I hold in my hand, which represent the opinions of the chairmen of unions tlioughout a very large portion of that district, that the system of giving relief to the able-bodied men only in *i^nvorkhouse, affords the labourer the greatest possible security for the continuanc^of employment at sufficient wages, 4665. Has this refusal of out-door relief to the able-bodied been accompanied by- severe pressure, or much suffering of any class of labourers ? — I should very much prefer to rely upon the statement which I liave in my hand, in answer to that question, than to give my own conviction, which is founded upon the assur- ances that I receive at the various boards of guardians, and the communica- tions of this nature which I constantly receive from the chairmen of the several unions. 4666. The Committee will be glad to hear any statements upon that point? — With ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838,) 9 With the leave of the Committee, T will read a letter fi-om a clerg)Tnan who is J- P- Kay, Esq. the chairman of the Wangford Union in Suffolk: ' " My dear Sir, 22 February 1838. 14 March 1838. I HAVE been exceedingly annoyed at not having it in my power to reply to your letter sooner; but the clerk had mislaid, or rather forgotten, my queries, and when his returns arrived, they were so imperfect that I was compelled to give them back for revision, and now I fear that they will reach you too late ; however, I beg to repeat my strong conviction of the full success of our exertions, which the experience of an additional week has only tended to strengthen. 1. — Our average application from the able-bodied had been, for five weeks, eight. 2. — The number of applications from the able-bodied, during the following weeks, was as follows : — Applicaliuns. January 10--------- 10 » 17 - - - 43 ,.24 24 » 3» 13 February 7--------- 19 » 14 14 3. — The applications had been made generally throughout the union. 4. — The house was invariably offered. 5 — ,- Persons to whom House /> Date. a- , Came in. was ottered, January 10 ----36 ----9 17 - - - - 146 - - - r 20 „ 24 - - - - 94 - - - - 18 „ 31 - - - - 33 - - - - 6 February 7---- 46 ----2 „ 14 - - - - 56 - - - - 3 6. — Tt has been reported to me, that in many instances the labourers are aware that the expense of in-door maintenance has acted as a protection to them ; one or two labourers have in conversation admitted it to me themselves ; and I am inclined to think, from the manner in which they expressed themselves, that the understanding on that point is spreading widely. 7. — I can affirm, that very generally throughout the union the occupiers have found some sort of employment for the labourers ; in many parishes the attention of the far- mers has been actively stirred up to meet tiie emergency ; they first waited to hear the determination of the board, for there was a strong expectation that, from the great number of applications, and the state of the weather, a proposal for out-door relief would be successful ; but the very next morning (and, in one parish, the very same evening) after the determination of the board was made known, arrangeiments were instantly adopted for setting the men to work. " This will never do," was the universal cry ; " better find the men employment in the parish, than pay such a sum for their maintenance." 8. — Inquiry, observation and experience have all convinced me that a I'elaxation of the workhouse principle to the able-bodied would be attended by the most pernicious conse- quences. It would produce indifierence on the part of the occupier, as to the finding employment, unsettle the gradually improving habits of industry amongst the labourers, make them idle now, and improvident hereafter. To be a protection and a moral benefit, the rule must be firmly adhered to. The occupiers and idle labourers are sufficiently lynx-eyed to discover any loop-hole to creep out at ; the slightest doubt of our firmness would produce (he greatest improvidence and distress; men would calculate on the {)liability of a board, and on their powers of persuasion over their guardians, and be reckless and thoughtless of the future ; certainty of action is, in my opinion, the secret of our success. I see, in what is called ' larger discretionary power ' to a board of guardians, an analogy to a code of severe capital punishments, that are rarely executed ; uncertainty and unsteadiness of system act upon the human mind in both cases in the same way, causinf crime in the one, and improvidence and misery in the other ; in the one instance, the offender plunges into crime, trusting f||gthe real humanity of his prosecutor and judges, but, in the other case, mistaken humanity does the mischief, and the farmer refuses to "ive employment, and the labourer rei'uses to be provident, through a hope that a change of feeling and of views may be brought about in the minds of the guardians ; in proportion as a man becomes certain of the consequences, he is cautious and circumspect in his conduct. In short, I attribute the great success that has attended our exertions to the firm attitude that the board of guardians assumed on the occasion ; and my opinion is, that these discre- tionary powers, which kind but mistaken persons are so anxious to see entrusted to us, would produce the very evils they wish to avert. I remain, my dear sir, very truly yours, George Sandbi/, junior." 4667. Mr. EstcourL] Does the out-door relief referred to in that letter mean the 216. B oM 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. P. Kiiv, Esq. olfl allowance system ? — It means the allowance for relief in kind or money, to w.D. labourers without employment, out of the house. 4668. The evils anticipated by the writer are the evils which every one knows 14 March 1838. belong to the old system, commonly called the allowance system ? — Tlie evils which he anticipates are, that farmers would, if the labourers could be maintained when out of employment, by the jjarish, not take pains to provide them with employ- ment, and that they would be therefore dependent upon the parish. 4669. Do you think, if instead of the allowance system, a system were adopted of out-door relief in the shape of a labour test, cautiously guarded, so as to prevent the evils belonging to the old allowance system — do you apprehend that the same objection would hold good against such a system ; by a labour test, properly guardeJ, 1 wish to be understood in the following way : tliat by way of relief the guardians should have it in their discretion to employ a labourer who is out of work upon some work which shall not be for the benefit of the private individual, and Avhich shall be done by task-work ? — The consequences that I should expect from that would be the following : that the number of labourers who would be discharged under the allowance system, and under the system of applying the out-door labour test, during the period of severe weather, such as has recently occurred, would be about as great in the one case as in the other, because I do not see any thing in the labour test, as it is proposed in the question, which gives such a stimulus to the employers to provide the men employment, as is afforded by requiring that if they are thrown out of work they shall be received into the workhouse and maintained there at double the cost to the employers. I believe that the labour test is inferior to the workhouse test on many grounds, but I think it is inferior in the protection to the labourer, because it requires that he should do certain work, possibly of a less desirable descrijition than that in which he is generally employed, at a price somewhat inferior to that which is ordinarily given ; and then it gives no inducement to the occupier, at the time when it is most necessary that that induce- ment should be given, to keep him in employment at the ordinary wages of the district, whereas the workhouse test produces both those effects ; it not only stimulates the labourei's to industry and fidelity, but it affords the strongest possible motive to the occupiers to retain the labourers in their employment. 4670. Do you not think that the suffering which, it is universally allowed, during the transition state, must be undergone by applying rigorously the Avorkhouse test in all cases, may be set, on the other hand, as a reason why the labour test should be applied ? — If it had been the case, as is supposed in the question, that there had been a sudden transition from the allowance system to the operation of the workhouse system, in a very short period, in the district in which I have been placed, I might be led to agree in the hypothesis which is stated in the question ; but as such a sudden transition has not occurred in my district, I am quite unable to suppose what might be the condition of the labourers where such a sudden transition may have occurred. 4671. Supposing we were speaking of a district where the average rate of wages was not more than 7*. or 8s. a week, do you not think that that is a state of wages Mliere some relaxation of the severe rule might be allowed? — My belief is, that pauperism among the able-bodied is not dependent upon the state of wages in any district. I believe that the embarrassment of farmers may be to a certain extent increased by the want of capital and skill, both of which are necessary to maintain a high rate of wages, but that those embarrass- ments alone are not the causes of pauj)erism amongst the able-bodied ; and it is a sufficient answer to such a supposition, to state, that in Kent, in which, of all the counties of the south of England, the wages are highest, there was the gre^' B4 tricts, i6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE /. P. Kay, Esq. tricts, of which I have considerable personal knowledge, there is less recourse M.D. to parochial aid in periods of very considerable pressure, than in agricultural districts during periods of very much less pressure. 14 March 1838. 4714. But, nevertheless, parish aid has been had recourse to in those circum- stances ? — It is much more common for the manufacturers to diminish the time of the employment of the labourers, and to retain the connexion mth them, than entirely to discharge them from their employment ; and the pressure must be exceedingly severe and long continued, vs^hich shall be accompanied with the consequence of a large number of able-bodied persons being thrown upon the poor-rate. 4715. Have we not had it in proof, that in Nottingham and other places, it is as I stated, that they have had recourse to parish aid ? —The pressure in Notting- ham has been so severe, that they have had recourse to parish aid. 4716. Are you not aware, that when the manufacturers are in a state of depres- sion, it extends sympathetically to the agricultural districts?, — I believe, that inas- much as the manufacturers are, to a certain extent, consumers of agi-icultui-al pro- duce, and inasmuch as, happily, in the present state of society, the interests of one /■ class are bound up with the interests of another class, that every thing affecting the interests of an individual class, must, by the order of nature, and not by sym- pathy, affect the interests of another class. 4717. If, in manufacturing districts in a state of depression, it has been found necessary to have recourse to parish aid, in a similar state of depression in the agricultural districts, would it not be necessary to have recourse to the same aid? — I by no means conceive that it would be necessary ; I conceive that if the profits of capital employed in agriculture were diminished by any causes, that might operate, and would probably operate, upon wages ; but I do not see that it neces- sarily should operate upon employment ; and I am certain that nothing could be more injurious to the farmer than that, in order to relieve himself from such a temporary pressure, he should have recouree to the vices of the allowance system, which would have simply this effect, tliat he would give his money to support unproductive labour, instead of giving his money to support productive labour. 47 1 8. Are you at all aware that in any part of England, at the present moment, the agricultural interest is so far depressed that it is found impossible to employ the people, in many parishes, in the usual manner, and at the usual rate of wages ? — I must confine my observations to my own district of Norfolk and Suffolk, to which I have been by the pressure and urgency of my duties, practically, strictly confined ; and in Norfolk and Suffolk, in answer to that question, I may state, that by the universal confession of all persons, a period of greater agricultural prosperity than that now existing has not been known for a long series of years. 4719. Is not your reasoning upon the mutual interests of master and labourer necessarily based upon the fact of there being an even balance between the supply and demand in the labour market ? — Inasmuch as the new Poor Law tends to produce exactly what is supposed in the question, ft appears to me that the most important benefits are derived from it, and that any re- course which might be had to the vices of the allowance system would have the tendency of producing local congestions which would interfere between the balance of the supply and demand for labour. 4720. Is it in your contemplation that whenever in any district there may be a temporary depression and consequent non-demand for labour, the only resource the labourer should then have would be immediately to pack up his little stock of fiirniturc and proced to some other district in search of work ? — I do not think that fwould be at all the consequence, as I have already stated, of a temporary depression of the interests of the agricultural community in any district ; because though, as I have previously stated, I think that depression might affect the rate of wages, I cannot conceive how it could, consistently with the in- terests of the agriculturists, affect the amount of employment. 4721. Is not the workhouse relief, wliich you have stated to be so expensive aa to make the guardians and the farmers in the parish hesitate before they send a man with his family into the workhouse, beginning to be confined very much to single men? — On tlie contrary; it a])pears to me that the workliouse is offered by all the intelligent guardians with a view to create employment for the families. 4722. Chairman.] Is it not the practice to offer admission to the workhouse to ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 17 to men with large families ?-Tlie practice is in all cases to offer the workhouse .7. P.Kay, Esq. to every man whose indigence is shown. . 4703. ]\Ir. J/odr/cs.-] Would it not manifestly be to the interest of the parish to ^^ ^^^^^^ ^g^g_ aiFord employmeut to men with families, in case of depression, and to deny it to single men, and to offer them the house, it being clear that they could keep a sinole man cheajier in the house, than they could a man and his wife and lour or five chihhvn ?- In a parish in A\liich there is not a larger number of labourers than there is productive employment for, it is quite plain that the whole of the labourers would be kept in employiuent, rather than that they should be suffered to go into the workhouse; and if bv the o])eration of causes Avhich are quite foreign to the natural operation of the e'xisting law, there should be a surplus of labourers beyom the number which could be profitably employed, I belie no that the workhouse would be offered to men with families, and that they would be employed, rather than the single men ; and that the single men would be those who would have to go farther afield to seek for employment. r. ^, t> 4724. Mr.yl/fe.] Have you turned your attention to the clauses of the 1 oor Law Amendment Act relative to bastardy ?-I have witnessed the decisions of , boards of guardians upon that sub.j(>ct; and as to the practical eilects ^flowing from those decisions, I am not able to give any information to the Commit- tee from my own personal knowledge, but merely from the general statements which have 'been made to me by chairmen and others, who have opportunities of making observation. 4725. Will you state, generally, the modes adopted relative to women with bastard children, dividing those born previously to the passing of the Poor Law Amendment Act and those born subsequently ; and state to the Committee what system is adopted with regard to each in the district under your charge?— In the majority of unions the workhouse is offered to women with bastard children, on the ground that it would not appear to be expedient to give relief, which is coni- nioiily deemed more desirable, to women with bastard children, where it is not given to widows with a single child. If the child be under the age of nurture, the relief in the workhouse is commonly offered to the mother. If the child be con- siderably beyond the age of nurture, and there be a prospect of the mother getting into service and supporting herself, the workhouse is offered to the child separately from the mother. 4726. In that case, does tlie mother pay for the maintenance of the child out of her earnings ? — I think that is never required. 4727. So that the child is an entire burthen upon the poor-rates?— If the child be admitted into the workhouse. 4728. Does your answer apply both to those bastards born previously, as well as to those born subsequently to the passing of the Act ? — I believe that no difference has been made, in the majority of the unions, between those born previously to the passing of the Poor Law Amendment Act, and those born subsequently. 4729. At what age do you suppose the age of nurture ends? — Seven. 4730. From the return which you have put in, I find that in the whole of your unions there are 615 able-bodied women in the workhouse, and that out of those 192 have bastard children ; the next class is single women, without bastard children; are those single women without bastard children, likely to be the mothers of bastards ? — I think that a great number of them would jirobably be women who may have led dissolute lives, and who probably come into the work- houses to be confined ; but there are other young women in the workhouse, mIio, from Mant of skill, or who, from want of trustworthiness, cannot get situations, and Avho are consequently inmates of workhouses. 4731. Then am I to understand that, in the return which you yesterday gave in of the inmates of the different workhouses, both in Suftblk and Norfolk, at least one-third of the able-bodied women who are now in those Morkhouses are women with bastard children, and, in addition to which one-third, there are likewise several single women, who come in merely to be confined in the workhouses ? — As to the latter point, I should not like to trust to my memory; as to the former point, I think that the utmost dependence may be placed upon the return. 4732. The number of children, likcAvise, I find, in the whole of the workhouses of your unions, is 1,837 ; and out of those there are 543 bastards, making between a third and a fourth of the whole numljcr of children within those workhouses ? — • I conceive that both are natural consequences of the operation of the Poor Law, 210. c which 1 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE /. p. Kay, Esq. whicli lias this effect, not merely upon the men, but upon the women ; that those M. D. who are trustworthy and skilful, obtain good situations, and are supported by • wages; and those who have given evidence of a want of skill, or a want of trust- 14 March 1838. -Hrorthiness, are, to a certain extent, dependent upon the poor-rate. 4733. Do you not think, that if this goes on at all increasing, it is probable, that, as far as regards the able-bodied women and their children, the workhouses will be very soon filled up by illegitimate children and women with bastards ? — ■ I do not see any evidence of an increase in the number of bastard children or in the number of women of that class within the workhouses ; but I have heard con- stantly the grievance stated, by the chairmen of unions, that dissolute women who are admitted into the workhouse, leave the workhouse for tdree or four days, and follow their usual courses, and then retm-n to it ; and there is no means of restrain- ing such an abuse of the maintenance provided for them within the workhouse. 4734. Will you be kind enough to explain how it is that the woman is alloAved to go out for two or three days, and retiu-n to her vicious courses ? — She, for example, would give notice on the Wednesday or the Thursday or Friday, if the board met on Monday, and return on the Monday ; I am speaking of cases in which the women are within the workhouse without their children, or in which they take their children with them. 4735. Chairman.'] They must return to the workhouse by a renewed applica- tion, which would have to be inquired into by the board of guardians ? — Yes; but the board of guardians, finding them in an indigent condition, do not deem them- selves authorized in refusing admission. 4736. ]Mr. Miles.] Then, as the system is at present working, it is probable that the workhouse will become the habitation of the dissolute woman and her off- spring? — I cannot conceive that it is an objection to the workhouse, that all honest and industrious people find emplojTnent out of it, and that only those are in it who are not honest and industrious. 4737. Relative to the operation of the bastardy law, as carried on in Norfolk and Suffolk, do you conceive that the guardians act according to the law, by making it one of the conditions of relief to the bastard bom previously to the Poor Law Amendment Act, that its mother should become an inmate of the workhouse ? — I do not profess to have a critical acquaintance with the statutes, but, as far as my knowledge goes, I believe I am correct in stating, that the orders of magistrates, made previously to the passing of the Poor Law Amendment Act, were orders for the indemnity of the parish, and that the relief given to the mother was given after proof being afforded of her indigence, but without reference to the order of the magistrate ; it was the custom, and that custom prevailed so extensively, that conclusions were founded upon it, that all women with bastard children should become dependent upon the parishes, and therefore, as a consequence of the prevailing custom, applications were made, in the vast majority of instances, to the magistrates, for orders for indemnity of parishes against the supposed neces- sary consequence of the dependence of the mother and her child ; but I do not perceive any thing in any of the clauses of the Poor Law Amendment Act which should separate the woman having a bastard child from the operation of the general principles of the law, that she should receive relief, when indigent, within the workhouse ; othervdse I should conceive that the law was founded upon a most unequal principle, namely, that the indigent widow with one child was liable to relief in the workhouse, and the indigent woman with a bastard child was, in consequence of the orders made for indemnity of the parish, to be relieved out of the workhouse. 4738. Is there not a special provision in the Poor Law Amendment Act, that the new law relating to bastardy should only apply to those born since the passing of the Poor Law Amendment Act ; do you not conceive that the bastards born previously to the passing of the Poor Law Amendment Act are entirely excluded from the operation of the ])resent law, and are amenable to prior Acts ? — I conceive that the 69th clause relates solely to the liability of the father and the mother of the bastard child to punishment, on account of the act of bastardy ; I conceive that that clause repeals the operation of all those statutes, both with respect to the fathers and mothers of bastard children, before and since the passing of the Act, inasmuch as they relate to the punishment of mothers for the act of bastardy. 4739. Then, if, upon orders being applied for against the fathers of bastards, and not having been paid subsequently to that order coming into operation, the magis- trates ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 19 trates shall have ordered the imprisonment of those fathers, will they, or will they /. p. Kay, Esq. not, have acted illegally ? — I confess that my critical acquaintance with the law is m. d. not such as would enable me to give an opinion upon that subject, which I think it would not become me to do. seeing- that I' have no doubt that if the law has 14 March 1838. been so administered, it has been administered by magistrates who have much more acquaintance than I can have had \vith tliose statutes. 4740. Looking at the law as it at present stands, do you not conceive that it will become perfectly inoperative ? — I conceive that it would be of great advantage that the law should become inoperative, as far as any remedy is given against the father ; because I think that those remedies are generally employed as a means of compelling marriage, or operating in gratification of the vindictive feelings which are very frequently engendered by the acts preceding bastardy, and by the desertion of the women; if it be considered desirable, the Legislature is competent to frame and to pass an Act for the punishment of seduction ; but it appears to me, that all we have to do under the Poor Law Amendment Act, is to decide what is the best means of relieving that particular form of indigence ; and, I conceive, that, supposing the child to be dependent, and any remedy be given against the father, that rather tends to promote the increase of that particular form of indigence than its diminution. 4741. Have the boards of guardians in Norfolk and Suffolk applied for orders of affiliation in any case at quarter sessions ? — In exceedingly few. 4742. Those cases have been exceptions, rather than the general rule? — Very rare exceptions indeed. 4743. Mr. Estcourt.'\ In cases of bastards born previously to the Act, where orders have been obtained, should you consider the mother in a state of indigence, who has such an order, although she is unable to enforce it ? — I believe it was never competent to the mother of a bastard child to enforce the order of the magistrates against the father ; I believe it was only competent for the overseer, on behalf of the parish, to apply for the enforcement of the order, and that only legiti- mately in cases in which money had been paid to the mother for the relief and necessary maintenance of the child; if, therefore, the mother is no longer dependent, in consequence of the operation of the test upon her indigence, it appears to me that she had never the power, and that she has no right to apply for the enforcement of an order of bastardy against the father. 4744. Should you think it a right thing that the board of guardians should order such a woman into the workhouse, instead of enforcing the order through the medium of the overseer ? — I should conceive it very injurious if the board of guardians were to grant relief to the mother of a bastard child in a more desirable manner than to the mother of a legitimate child ; and it appears to me that we can have nothing to do with the punishment of the father, or his escape from the burthen, in consequence of the cessation of the indigence of the mother, inasmuch as the primary consideration as to what ought to be done for the relief of various classes of able-bodied paui)ers is, how shall relief be administered so as to create a preference for the reward of industry. 4745. In that view it is a matter not taken into consideration in the district under your superintendence, according to the practice of the boards, whether, the mother has obtained an order against the father, which she has enforced, or whether she has not ?— There are certain exceptions still existing, but with those exceptions the practice is completely as described in the question. 4746. Mr. Miles.] Has not the practice comjjletely changed as respects the old and the new law ; was not the bastard affiliated to the father and mother pre- viously, and is it not affiliated now to the mother alone ? — During the period when there were more slender opportunities for the employment of women, and there was a more prevalent jiauperism throughout the country, all mothers of bastard children were, I think, dependent, and the orders of the magistrates were supposed to be enforced, though practically a great majority of them were not en- forced, but since the Poor Law Amendment Act came into operation, the indi- gence of mothers of bastard children, and of widows also, has to a very large extent ceased, and in consequence of that, the orders for indeumity of parishes have also become inoperative ; the mother is now liable for the support of her child ; whereas, previously the l>urthen was supposed to be divided between the father and the mother. 4747. Was not the greater part of the maintenance thrown upon the father, in those orders ? — Commonly. 210. " c 2 4748. Wliy 20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. P. Kay, Esq. 4748. Why do you conceive that the indigence of motliers of bastard children, *'■ ^' and the indigence of widows with young chikh-en, has decreased, since the passing ~~r. r~r'n of the poor Law Amendment Act ?— Widows with one or two children now 14 arc 3 . Q^|.j^jj^ employment, and also women with bastard children obtain employment. 4749. Is that the case where the children are very young? — In one or two unions in my district, I believe there are no widows, with fewer than two children, dependent, unless in the infancy of the child, or sickne&s. 4750. But there has been no higher rate of wages which leads you to suppose that they are less dependent now than they were formerly ? — No, there has been a greater disiJosition to seek, and a greater disposition to afford, employment ? 4751. Have you any return relative to marriages which have taken place in Norfolk and Suffolk ? — Last spring I instructed the relieving officers of a great number of unions to apply for returns of the marriages which occurred in the parishes in their district in the years 1833, 1834, 1835 and 1836. A consider- able difficulty was experienced in procuring those returns ; where they were pro- cured, they were given by the clergymen of the parishes, very kindlv, as a favour, to the relieving officers ; but they did not comprise, in consequence of certain difficulties which were experienced, every parish in every officer's district, but only certain of the parishes ; but in every case in which the return was obtained from any parish, it included all those years. \The Witness delivered in the same. — Vide Appendix (B.)] 4752. From the return do you find that the number of marriages has increased or decreased in the period ? — I find in this return, that the marriages in the year 1833, in the districts to Avhich it relates, were 762 ; in the year 1834, they were 771 ; in the year 1835, 663 ; in the year 1836, 549; which I believe may be taken as evidence that there has been a considerable diminution of improvident marriages in the districts. 47,53. And that has been occasioned greatly by a return to a good administra- tion of the Poor Laws ? — I believe it to have been occasioned entirely by the anticipation that the labourers had of the efl'ects of the change of the law. 4754. And by the system of out-door relief per head, or allowance per head, having totally ceased ? — Certainly. APPENDIX. ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 21 APPENDIX. Appendix (A.) ANSWERS of Chairmen and Vice-Chaikmen of Unions to Questions respecting Appendix (A.) Migration and Emigration, January 1837. Questions. 5— To what extent have migration and emigration proceeded in your union ? 6.— Have you received satisfactory accounts, or otherwise, of the condition of the migrants and emigrants. 7 —Has any sensible diffusion of the population among the parishes of your union, or to more distant parts of the country, occurred without the intervention of your board, by the unassisted exertions of the labourers ! 5. — To a considerable extent. 6. — Remarkably satisfactory. 7. — In a small degree. Answers. Earl of Stradhroke, Chairman of Blything Union. 6.-Very satisfactory accounts have been received from the m.gran s, as to ^^e '^proved condition; and also from their employers, as to their mdustrious habits and o'^erly 'conduct 7.-I am told that many of our labourers are gone to the railroads ; a ^^^f^''^^^''^^^^^^ have, without the assistance of the board, removed for the present ; but it is not known where they are gone to. ^ ^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^ C\,^^rra^n of Woodbridge Union. e'-The accounts have been satisfactory, of our migrants, as far as they have gone, with the exception of one or two individuals of complaming habits. ^ . . , ^ .. 7 _A few labourers have gone for work on railroads, but I do not think to any extent. Major Moor, Vice-chairman of Woodbridge Union. 5.— The cases of migration or emigration in this union are very few, confined to four or five of the parishes. 6.— The accounts received are, I am informed, very satisfactory. 7.-T0 a certain extent population may be diffused ; but til the law of settlement^shall be abolished, and the people can be learned to feel " one parish is as good as another, that diffusion, which is so desirable, cannot take place. John Wright, Esq. Chairman of Thetford Union. 5.-There has been no emigration. The number of migrants sent, by permission of the Poor Law Commissioners, to Lancashire and Yorkshire, has amounted to 202* persons of all aoes The relieving oihcers report that about 30 famihes have gone away without the intervention of the board of guardians ; and a considerable number of young men have also left their respective parishes, to get work elsewhere. ^ __With • About one-half of this number was sent into Lancashire by Messrs. Ansell & Ke.sey, with the sanction of the Commissioners, but without the aid of their agent at Manchester. 210. C 3 22 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE Appendix (A.) C. — With one solitary exception, all the accounts received have been most satisfactory. 7. — The farmers now employ labourers, with much less regard to the place of their legal settlement. Many single men have gone to the railroads now in progress, or have obtained situations in and near London. Rev. F. Calvert, Chairman of Cosford Union. 5. — Migration and emigration have not been carried on to great extent with us ; and I fancy that I perceived, at an early day, a suspicion growing up amongst the board, that the surplus population, of which we have heard so much, would, in the end, prove more ima- ginary than real ; whether I have been mistaken or not in this opinion, we have only had six families migrate, and nine emigrate; to which should be added 18 orphan children that have been apprenticed in Lancashire. 6. — The reports, both from the emigrants and migrants, have been very satisfactory, except in one case among the latter ; and in this too, upon inquiry having been made, there was strong reason for suspecting that no real ground for complaint had ever existed. 7. — In regard to this question, I am informed that the young men go about the country looking out for and obtaining work, quite in a different manner to what they used. One of our relieving officers informs me, that, in the town of Beccles, there used always to be 20 or 30 men standing about ; but that " they are now gone, he does not know where." Rev. G. Sanby, jun.. Chairman of Wangford Union. 5. — Migrated about 130 souls, emigrated about 500. 6. — The few accounts I have seen of both classes have been satisfactory. 7.- — Very few, that I know of. Sir T. S. Goock, bart.. Vice-chairman of Blything Union. 5. — Between Christmas 1835 and Midsummer last, 53 families migrated from this union into the maaiufacturing districts, through the intervention of the board, of which 15 were the families of widows. A number of persons (exceeding 300 of all classes) also emigrated to the Canadas during the last summer, of which nearly 100 were able-bodied labourers. 6. — The accounts given by the migrants of their present condition, have in general been so cheerincT and satisfactory, as to induce many of their friends to leave their parishes, by their own unassisted exertions, and seek employment in the same districts. Much sickness appears to have prevailed amongst the migrant families ; but, except where this has been the case, they describe their condition as far superior to wliat it had previously been. But few accounts have been yet received of the emigrants ; as tar, however, as they go, they are highly satisfactory. 7. — I am of opinion that this diffusion of the population has not occurred to any great extent, as far as regards the parishes of the union. Very many, however, of our labourers (who had for years, under the old system, availed themselves of the parish funds for their entire maintenance), have, for months past (and that without the smallest intervention of the board), disappeared from their respective parishes, and have since been traced into beneficial employment in more distant parts of the country, having thus exchanged the degrading situation of paupers, for a station among the independent industrious working classes. I cannot but obsei-ve, as regards this last-mentioned fact, how forcibly it serves to prove the different spirit by which our labourers are actuated, now than formerly. Under the old system, idleness and improvidence were so completely the portion of the paupers of this district, and acted as so strong an inducement to keep them in their own parishes, that the certainty of good wages in a parish to which they did not belong, if work was to be the condition, was not sufficient to induce them to move. Now, however, a totally altered spirit prevails. If work is not to be found at home, they are both ready and anxious to seek it elsewhere. Rev. H. Owen, Chairman of Hoxne Union. 5. — Number of migrants 213, number of emigrants 104. 6. — Such accounts as we have received from migrants and emigrants are highly satis- factory, with two exceptions, which have arisen from the character of the individuals. 7. — Many instances of removal have occurred, without any intervention of the board, and a few with partial assistance. The latter have been cases in which the circumstances of the families, or their character, did not justify the board in recommending them as migrants ; and have not been so satisfactory as to induce the board to adopt that course in future. There is a general anxiety amongst the young women to obtain situations as servants, and many have gone to London, and other distant places, for that purpose, without the inter- ference of the board. Many single men have also pursued the same plan. J. P. Barclay, esq., Vice-chairman of Plomesgate Union. 5. — There ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) uj 6.— There has been neither emigration nor migration at the parish expense. Seven to Appendix (A.) ein-ht single men have sought employment at a distance. °7 —I beUeve not any ; the whole surplus population seems all at once absorbed within the parish I inquire how it is that I no longer see the 20 to 30 I used to see standmg m the street ; I obtain the fact, without explanation, that they were out of employment and now they are in. Last week there were three able-bodied men without work, two from an acci- dental and temporary cause (of a farm changing hands), and the third, a man of the worst character, who would, with his family, be in the workhouse, if there were room.* Rev. A. Hanbury, Bures, Sudbury Union. 5. — About four families altogether have been assisted to migrate. 6 & 7. Many families, and others, have left this district for work in the manufacturing counties', and the accounts received from them have been satisfactory. In the Ixworth Division comprising the parishes of Ixworth, Stanton, Pakenham, Bardwell, Troston and Thorpe, nearly 150 individuals have gone into other parts of the country for work, the greater number without any assistance, or at least, very little assistance, from the board, but certanily influenced by the opinion of the new Poor Law. J. H. Powell, Esq. Chairman of Thingoe Union. 5 & 6.— I believe there have been four or five families migrated to the manufacturing dis- tricts, and those who had an opportunity of making agreements with the masters previous to leaviiU their parishes are reported to be making very satisfactory earnings, and in some instances those who have gone upon their own speculation are doing very well ; but others have returned in a state of destitution. 7. — I think not to any material extent, and those single men. J. M. Rodwell, Esq., Vice-Chairman of Thingoe Union. 5. No emio-ration has taken place ; migration to the manufacturing districts has taken place, in accordance with the plan prescribed by the Poor Law Commissioners, in the instance of two families, amounting to 17 in number. Three other families have proceeded to the same destination, through a different channel, amountino- to 23 in number. Young single men, in considerable numbers, have left us to seek, and have found, employment, on rail-roads, &c. On the whole, 60 of our population have migrated. 6. — The accounts are satisfactory. 7. — Answered in answer to No. 5. And I will add, that the labourer now, in his search for emplojrment, does not confine him- self, as he formerly did, within the precincts of his own parish; he has discovered that it/is his interest and duty to seek work in the neighbouring parishes. Rev. W. J. S. Casborne, Guardian of Pakenham, Thingoe Union. 5. — Migration to a limited extent. 6. — Very satisfactory from the migrants, and as far as my observation enables me to state, it is only the idlers who have been dissatisfied or returned to their parishes. 7. — No, there are a few exceptions. J. H. HeigJiam, Esq., Vice-Chairman of Stow Union. 5. — About 11 or 12 families from the whole union have migrated, and two famiUes emigrated to North America. 6. — The paupers who have migrated, and from whom any intelligence has been received, have given the most flattering account of their present condition. No account has been received of them who have emigrated, as the time will not allow of it. 7. — Yes, in many instances, and have no doubt but it will go on to increase. Some of the parishes in the union decline sending any more, having in prospect employment for them at home. J. A. Webb, Esq., Guardian of Stow Union. 5. — Burgess * This union had only some small, temporary workhouses, quite insufficient to enable the board to offer ibem extensively as tests ol pauperism. 210. C JL 24 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE .... V 5. Burgess Rickwood, a bricklayer, and his family, have migrated to Cheshire, and Ap pen IX { .) about seven sino-le men have gone to work on the Birmingham railroad. Three families, ~ comprisino- 17 persons, emigrated to Van Dieman's Land in October last. 6. The accounts from Burgess Rickwood have been very satisfactory ; he and his family are now earning 2 1. 3 s. 4 c?. weekly ; whereas, here, he himself worked for 15 s. and his son for about 8 s. per week, and at those wages they had not constant employment. The young men on the railroad are earning, I hear, 16 s. a week. 7. — A few young men, in addition to those mentioned above, have gone to work on the railroad voluntarily and unassisted by the parish ; many labourers, who would never go into the fen for work during the winter whilst they could receive parish relief in a manner agreeable to themselves, now go many miles into that part of the parish to seek employment. Mr. £J. Curling, Guardian of Mildenhall. 5. — The board has sanctioned the outlay of various sums in furtherance of migration and emigration. During the year ending the 11th October 1836, there have migrated, at the expense of three parishes, 37 adults and 63 children ; emigrated, 178 adults and 215 children, besides many who have gone, either by their own resources or by assistance from friends ; of these we have no return, but the number is considerable. 6. — From many of these, both migrants and emigrants, the most satisfactory accounts have been received ; the former have obtained abundance of employment, at high wages, the latter express their desire that their friends should follow them ; comparing this country with Canada or the United States, they call one a land of starvation, the other of plenty. 7. — By migration the population has, to a small extent, diffused itself through the country. Taking assisted and unassisted migration together, there is a great decrease in the number of loose hands ; nearly all the parishes of the union had hands to spare. H. E. Blyth, Esq., Chairman of Docking Union. 5. — Since the formation of the union, of men, women and children, about 60 have migrated and about 100 have emigrated 6. — Very satisfactory accounts have been received of the condition both of the migrants and emigrants. 7. — I am not aware of such diffusion of the population among the parishes of the union or to more distant parts of the country. H. F. Day, Esq., Chairman of Swaffham Union. 6. — The accounts received are very satisfactory in every instance. 7. — A small proportion of the population in the union have migrated unassisted by the board. Mr. Roht. Kersey, Guardian of Hadleigh. 6. — In every case where migration has taken place, it has succeeded beyond expectation. 7. — In many instances, paupers who have been maintained from the poor-rates for several years together, have now found employment for themselves without any assistance ; in others some httle aid has been obtained by subscription. Mr. R. Rand, late Relieving Overseer, Cosford Union. 5. — ^The instances of migration have been very few. Emigration, I believe, has not been adopted in a single case throughout the union. Both resources for employment, and as a better provision for the families, were strongly urged by the board at the formation of the union, but with little or no success. 6 & 7. — Accounts, I understand, have been received from those few cases who migrated, I believe to Manchester. I should have stated in Answer 5, that from the parishes of St. Faith's, Frittenham and Catton, many single able-bodied young men went in search of employment at the railroad in Northamptonshire, most of whom soon returned home again, some of whom never reached the railroad ; others did, and, it was ascertained, had obtained work and left it; others had committed robberies, and lost their characters by misconduct; many of these obtained 10 s. or 13 s. each to assist them on their journey. J. Longe, Esq., Chairman of St. Faith's Union. 5. — To no extent. 7. —I know of none. Sir W. F. F. MiddleAon, Bart., Chairman of Bosmere and Claydon Union. o — To ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 25 ^_ — To no extent woitli nieutioiiiag. Appendix (/\.) 7. — To a trifling extent. . J. K. Moore, Esq., Vice-Chaiiman of Bosmere and Claydon Union. 5. — Between 600 and 700. I have not the returns by me. 6. — Yes, from both. 7. — Yes. I cannot learn where to ; but some arc gone into Norfolk. ; some to Manchester ; some to the railroads. I do not imagi^ie to any great extent. Rev. S. aissoM, Ex-officio Guardian of Blything Union. 5. — The relieving officers' returns will inform you the number that have migrated. 6. — In most cases, the migrants have written very satisfactory accounts to their friends. Some few have returned after having had good wages at Sheffield. I do not know of more than one man with a family of four children, and one single man emigrating ; and they are gone to Jamaica, to a planter, at an expense of ol. to the parish of Steeple Bunipstead. 7. — I believe all the parties have migrated without the board of guardians' interterence> further than allowing about 10 s. for the conveyance of each person.* The board were not successful in their application to Mr. Muggeridge for engagements. Where the great number of unemployed labourers are gone, or how employed, 1 cannot imagine. Before this union was formed, there were several hundred able-bodied men, who had lived for years upon what they could obtain from the overseers, whose families are quite as well fed and clothed now as before the union, although they do not receive any relief from the parishes. In this parish (Haverhill) about \0l., V2l., or 15^., was paid every week, for several years, to make up what was termed bread-money (i.e. in aid of wages); and in the adjoining; parish of Helions Bumpstead, with a population of 847, 40 able-bodied labourers were receiving relief equal to the full amount of wages, in February last, when the paupers came to the board of guardians for examination. At this tiuie (December) there is not an able-bodied labourer out of employ, nor have there been more than one or two for several months. The parish of Steeple Bumpstead had nearly .'iO men and boys unemployed. Now, with what have migrated without the interference of the guardians, there are not men enough to cultivate the land in that parish ; and, to show how the parish of Helions Bumpstead managed their labourers, Joseph Humphrey, a pensioner, with a wife and five children, who coutd earn full wages, either as a weaver or labourer, declared, when under examination in February last, that he had not done a day's work, except in the gravel pits, or on the roads, on the parish account, since the year 1827 ; and, although good flour was at Is. dd. per stone, he was receiving- 9 s. l^d. per week of the parish. The board withdrew the whole relief within one month ; since then he has been able to maintain his family without parochial aid. J. Boreham, Esq., Vice-chairman of Risbridge Union. 5. — About 200. 6- — Perfectly satisfactory, as far as we have received accounts of both. 7. — Yes ; and to a considerable extent. The Board of Guardians of Thetford Union. 5. — There has been but one case of migration to the manufacturing districts, that is to say, under the cognizance of the board of guardians. A few labourers were assisted to a trifling amount last sprmg, in order to enable them to reach one of ihe railroads in progress in the midland counties. Most, if not all of them, have since returned, and have become absorbed m the mass of the population ; at any rate they have not since become charscable. The number of persons who have emigrated to the British American settlements in the course of the year is, altogether, about 2&0, one-third of whom probably are able-bodied males above 16 years of age. 6.— Accounts have as yet been received from but few of them ; but those accounts have been, without exception, satisfactory in the highest degree. 7.— There is no reason to suppose that such dirf'usion as is here intended has taken place. Norfolk men are proverbial for the difficulty with which they can be induced to move from the spot on which they were born ; so much so, that it is a common observation in the army, that if one of them deserts, the first place to seek for him is at home. Sir T. B. Beevor, Bart., Chairman of Wayland Union. 5. (!. — Another » The families selected were not adapted to migration to Lancashire, either from the children bemij wo young, tiom the want ol a proper ojlfit, or of sulllcient attestation of charucler. 210. 26 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE Appendix (A.) 5, 6. — Another cause to which is to be attributed this great diiference of expenditure, — — and which has tended so efficiently to this reduction, is the power given by the new law for facilitating the important objects both of emigration and migration, and the plans so admirably arranged by the Poor Law Commissioners for carrying the provisions of the law into execution. By the system thus adopted, a channel has been opened for the drainage of an overflowing population, where that overflow has really, or has been supposed to exist, and acting like the safety-valve of the vessel propelled by steam, though it sends forth a " hissing noise" at every discharge, which excites the alarm of some, and the screams of others, yet, by all acquainted with its necessity, it is regarded as the best surety for the safety of the whole, and the noise is known to be " nothing but smoke." From this union, since its first commencement, that is, during the spring of the present year (1836), 221 individuals, consisting of families of various sizes, and belonging to nine different parishes, have emigrated to our colonies in North America, at an expense of more than 1,300 /. ; one parish alone sending 95 out of this number, at the cost of 620 1. The expense hereby incurred by this and the other parishes having been raised on loan for a term of years, to be paid off by annual instalments, the charge of it is but little felt by the present rate-payers, and the years over which it is spread makes it more equitable in its effect, both to the present and future occupiers. By this power in the new Act, an almost insurmountable difficulty has been overcome in respect to emigration, and which no one but those who have made the attempt in former years to accomplish the same object can fully appreciate. Nor is the Act of the Legislature by which ships conveying emigrants to the colonies are regulated, less worthy of commendation. The accounts received from those who embarked from this district call for this acknowledgment, as they state the satisfaction of the emigrants at the care and provision made for their voyage. The parishes have also had the gratification of hearing not only of their safe arrival on the shores of Canada, but likewise of their having obtained immediate employment, at high and unlooked-for wages. The numbers who have migrated to the manufacturing districts exceed still more the number of emigrants to the colonies. Fifty-eight families, comprising 503 individuals, have been sent by the various parishes of the union, under contracts for three years, to different parts of Lancashire and the adjoining counties ; these contracts insuring them weekly wages to an amount with which the labouring classes in this country are totally unacquainted, varying from 20 s. to 40s., 50s., and as high as 56 s. a week, according to the number and ages of the children. In addition to this employment for children, who were here in a state of idleness nearly from one year's end to the other, and unable to contribute to their own support — -in addition to this great boon to a father of a family, the kindness and attention they describe as having experienced from their employers, the liberality with which they have been treated (in several instances receiving higher payments than they had contracted for), their favourable reports communicated to their friends here by private letters (many of which have been brought to me for my perusal), and the comparative affluence and comfort repre- sented to be attained by their migration to those districts, have wrought a change in the feelings and disposition of the people as to leaving their places of settlement, which, however much it was to be desired for their own welfare, was one of the most difficult and tenacious prejudices to have to combat. When first migration was proposed to applicants for relief, as offering an excellent opportunity for bettering their condition, it was invariably received with a decided negative, and frequently with observations on tlie cruelty and hardsliip of their being told they were to go from their parishes to obtain a livelihood elsewhere. " They did not see," they said, " why they were to be transported, till they had done something to be transported for ;" and on its being pointed out to them that other classes of society, farmers, tradesmen, and even those of the higher ranks, often migrated from one part of the country to another, and from England also to foreign climates, to gain a livelihood, or to improve their circumstances, or in following a profession, as the case might be, they would reply, " That might be very true, but what was the land for, if it was not to support the poor? and they would sooner starve than leave tlieir ' native,' " or parish. A widow of middle age, with a family well calculated for a manufactory, and who complained that she and her children were absolutely starving, though she was then in the receipt and had been receiving a regular allowance of the parish from the day of her widowhood, was asked if she would not be glad to accept a contract, if it could be obtained for her, when, having given the general answer, expressing that nothing should induce her to go, and adding, " She knew the parish was obliged to support her," the following dialogue ensued before the board : — " You complain that you and your children are in great distress ; that you are very willing to work, and make your children do so, and you only wish the parish officers would find you and them employment ; do you not think, as a parent, you are bound to find them work yourself if you can, and not the parish officers? — Yes. " Work, however, is now offered to you, w'lereby both you and your children will be enabled to gain a comfortable livelihood, yet you refuse the offer because it is in another part of England ; now if work, whereby you might support yourself and children, were to be had in the town of Bury," (about 22 miles distant,) " would you go? — No, I should not like to go so far. " Suppose now it was to be had at Botesdale," (about seven miles,) " would you not go there ? — No ; I have no business to go out of my parish. " Would you accept it at Mellis, the adjoining parish to your own? — Yes ; I would not mind that, if it was light work." She would not go 20 miles, nor seven, but would, as a favour to the parish, go as far as the adjoining ON THE POOR LAW A.VJeNDIMENT ACT. (1838.) 27 adjoining one, to do sonietliing for her maintenance, provided tlie employment was ready . d' CA ^ provided for her, and it was " light work." As extraordinary, and almost incredible, as the conversation may appear to any one unacquainted with tlie habits and feelings of the poor in this part of England, yet it is nothing more than a fair illustration of the general senti- ment which actuated the whole of the labouring class ; from the stripling, who was tauti'ht from the dawn of manhood to look to the overseer of the parish for his support, to the hale and buxom widow, who demanded weekly her 2s. Gd. as her "widow's pay," whatever might be her means, or those of her relatives, to prevent the necessity of her becoming a pauper on the parish — they (the labouring class) seemed, in fact, to consider themselves as " adscripti gleba," or common serfs, and so attached to the soil in which chance or birth had given them a settlement, that there they were to vegetate and be supported, even if the whole produce of the land were not sufficient for the purpose ; but since mio-iation has been attended with such happy results, and those provisions made to assist the unemployed in removing to other parts of England, where their labour is sure to obtain a remuneration, and this without risk and without cost to themselves, not only have applications from every parish in the union been poured in to the board of guardians, but private solicitations have been made at my own residence, praying that their parish might be compelled to send them. No longer is the observation heard, that it was no better than transportation to be sent out of one's parish ; but the complaint is, that parishes are not more willing to send them now that they desired to go ; and many, finding that assistance would not be granted, either in con- sequence of the families being too young to obtain contracts, or being unable themselves to produce testimonials of character, or in some instances from the parish havino- been already at such a heavy expense in sending migrants, that it was not deemed right by the board of guardians to put the rate-payers to a further charge, at least in the present year ; many, on being refused assistance from one or other of these causes, have pro- cured "promise of employment through their friends or former neighbours, and found their way to the manufacturing districts at their own expense. Six families, out of the 58 before-mentioned, and comprising at least 70 individuals, are known to have ooue in this manner, and no doubt many more of whom we have received no authentic re- port. The benefit derived from this distribution of labour throughout the kinf'dom ac- cording as the various calls of commerce require it, and whithersoever a fair market is opened for the poor man's only article of trade, his labour and industry ; the benefit thus accruing, both to the employer and the employed, must be too obvious to need any comment; while, at the same time, that deep-rooted error, the fosterino- parent of all pauperism, that a man was not to move nor to be removed from his parish, not- to look beyond the narrow boundaries of his place of settlement for his subsistence, whether the means of honestly getting his bread were or were not to be found within it, — this, the baneful fruit of that law of settlement, with all its nice legal doubts and leoal difficulties which, till its amendment by the new Act, only served to cramp the energies and vveioh down the spirit of industry, and which, as declared by Dr. Adam Smith, w^s the severest and most unjust law that ever was imposed upon the industry of the labouring classes in any civilized country, — the mischievous and baneful fruit of that Act has, we may trust, been already, in a great measure, removed, by the operation of the migrating system ; a'nd we may look forward with the hope that the long-fostered propensity of chngino- to the local rights of a pauper, will be ultimately eradicated from the minds of the people. 7. — Another consequence which would naturally flow from this change of disposition and feeling, will be a more general diftusion of labour " locally ;" that is within a narrower sphere, without resorting to either migration or emigration ; and though time has not yet sufficiently elapsed to prove this result to any extent within the union, still there is mani- festly an increasing disposition in the labourers to move from crowded parishes into those where there is a better chance of employment. Young men, especially, have gladly accepted proposals to engage themselves on the railroads. Young married men, with one or two children, have also gone, and taken their wives and families with them, to the place where they had an engagement for work. Some young men have been known to return, under the pretence that there was no longer employment to be had ; but the constant communication that has been kept with the railroad contractors, through the active agent of the Poor Law Conimissioners at Manchester, Mr. Muggeridge, has enabled the board'of guardians to con- tradict such statements, and receive the applicants for relief, arising from such a cause in the way they merited. The young men, finding their attempts at imposition unsuccessful' either returned whence tiiey came, or sought employment elsewhere. They gave the board' no further trouble. The Rev. Sir A. B. Henniker, bart. Chairman of Hartismere Union. • , _ 5. — Eight boys have emigrated, and one family has migrated. 6. — Satisfactory accounts have been received of all. 7.— No. The Clerk and Relieving Officers of Ipswich Union. ^ Appendix (B.) Appendix (B.) 28 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMIITEE, &c. Appendix (B.) MARRIAGES of Labourers, in the Years 1833, 1834, 1835 and 1836, as reported by Relieving Officers. NAME OF RELIEVING OFFICER. NAME OF UNION. 1833. 1834. 1835. 1B3G. Harwood, T. - - Cosford ^ _ 46 52 54 49 Bloss,W. - - - Hoxne - 41 32 33 13 Claxton, J. - 79 - 19 25 10 9 Engledow, J. - - » ^ 19 15 21 21 Pratt, J. - - . Mildenhall - - 21 16 20 15 Postans, G. C. >t ~ - 20 27 19 19 Brook, T. B. - - Risbridge - - 37 41 42 37 Jolly, T. »» - 16 24 12 17 Brown, J. P. » - 20 22 16 8 Burbidge, J. T. - Bosmere and Claydon - 16 15 10 16 Kerridge, G. - - >> - 32 31 29 23 Edwards, T. - t> ~ - 33 28 39 32 King, W. - Sudbury - 26 47 17 14 Bailey, E. - » - 25 27 30 21 Steggles, W. ?» ~ - 30 32 37 19 Ramscar, S. - » - 31 32 28 24 Ronse, P. - Blything - 26 32 16 19 White, C. - - - >» - 27 28 29 14 Sheppard, J. R. - Woodbridge - 34 31 33 29 Miles, T. - » - 47 37 21 18 Thinton, J. - >j - 31 17 16 12 Keer,M. Plomesgate - 18 27 20 24 Wigg, R. - - . » - 50 37 34 25 Wiseman, G. - - Thingoe - 25 22 23 17 Adams, F. - - - >» - 31 33 25 20 Rackham, T. Guiltcross - - 27 23 17 21 Ellis, A. » 14 18 13 13 762 771 663 549 SIXTEENTH REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT; WITH THE '€ MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, AND APPENDIX. Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed, 16 March 1838. 220. L ii ] Luna, 27° die Novembris, 1837. Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the Administration of the Relief of the Poor, under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act. Ordered, That the Committee consist of Twenty-one Members: Lord John Russell. Mr. Ward. Mr. Fazakerley. Lord Viscount Howick. Mr. Richard Walker. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Poulett Scrope. Mr. Villiers. Mr. Baines. Mr. Miles (Somerset). Mr. Boiling. Mr. Law Hodges. Mr. Lister. Mr. Chichester. Sir Thomas Fremantle. Mr. Slaney. Mr. Barneby. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Liddell. Mr. John Fielden Mr. Estcourt (Devizes). OrderedfTnAT the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers and Records. Ordered, That Five be the Quorum of the Committee. Jovis, S" die Februarii, 1838. Ordered, That power be given to the Committee to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House. THE REPORT p. iii MINUTES OF EVIDENCE p. 1 APPENDIX - ... p. 31 C 1" ] REPORT. THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the Administration of the Relief of the Poor under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act; and who were empowered to report the Minutes of Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House ; — HAVE taken some further Evidence, which they have agreed to report to The House. 16 March 1838. 220. [ 'V } WITNESS. Jaynes Phillips Kat/, Esq., m. d. - - - p. i MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Veneris, 16° die Martii, 1838. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Baines. Mr. Boiling. Mr. Chichester. Mr. Fielden. Mr. Freshfield. Sir T. Fremantle. Lord Howick. Mr. Liddell. Mr. Miles. Lord J. Russell Mr. Scrope. Mr. Wakley. MR. FAZAKERT,EY in the Chair. James Phillips Kay, Esq., m. d., again called in ; and further Examined. 4755. Chairman.] HAVE you any returns to deliver in? — The Committee j.p.Kay,I.si\. requested me to put in the dietaries which are in use in the workhouses in m.d. Norfolk and Suffolk ; I have the office copies of those dietaries, but there has ■ not yet been time to copy them ; I will take care that copies are made of the 16 March 1838. dietaries and furnished to the Committee. 4756. Mr. Miles.] Were the dietaries submitted to each board of guardians previously to their being adopted in the workhouses ? — The dietaries, in every case, were either selected by the board of guardians from the dietaries contained in the Poor Law Commissioners' report or circular, or they were modifications of those dietaries which the respective boards of guardians suggested for adoption to the Poor Law Commissioners. 4757. But in no case was any dietary adopted in Norfolk or Suffolk unless it had the approbation of the board of guardians ? — In every case the board of guardians has applied for the adoption of the dietary. 4758. In a former part of your examination relative to bastardy, I conceive, from the general tenor of it, that, in any alteration that should take place in the law, you would recommend the repeal of all the bastardy clauses ; am I right in my supposition ?■ — Certainly; I think that the recommendation of the Commis- sioners of Inquiry would be the best basis upon which that law could rest. 475Q. Have you, in case of that occurring, taken into consideration the possi- bility of giving to poor persons whose daughters have been seduced under promise of marriage, a cheaper remedy than now is given by the courts of law ; some remedy in the shape of a civil action ? — I think that the consideration of a law for the protection of females, or the punishment of seduction, must be a question totally apart from the relief of indigence ; that, in connexion with the Poor Law Amendment Act, the simple question which is to be determined is how we can best relieve the indigence of the respective classes of paupers, so as not to impair their industry, and thereby diminish their domestic comforts, and reduce their status in society ; if any other considerations are admitted, they appear to me to be foreign to the question of the relief of indigence. 4760. But in case of the present bastardy laws being repealed, and no cheaper provision having been made for poor persons who have suffered by the seduc- tion of daughters, do you not conceive that bastards would become a very great onus upon the poor-rates in your unions ? — My belief is, that any deductions which I or others might be inclined to make, from such knowledge of the facts succeeding to the passing of any measure by the Legislature, must be deductions made in the course of a series of years, and not in the limited space of time which has elapsed since the Poor Law Amendment Act has passed ; especially as, in that space of time, the principles upon which the law is based have r.:^t come into full operation in any district, except in a very recent period ; therefore all I could 220. A say 2 MLNUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J.' p. Kay, 'Esq. say would be, that I had confidence in the principle, but that the facts which *'• "• had come under my observation were neither so carefully collected, nor so numerous, as to enable me to produce tl^pm, in support of my view of the 16 March 1838. pi-incipie, to the Committee. . 4761 . But if we should receive evidence that in the large town of Manchester, notwithstanding the difficulties that are now thrown in the way of orders upon putative fathers, the bastard births have not decreased since the passing of the Poor Law Amendment Act, would not that lead us to the supposition that, in case the fathers were totally left, without being liable to make any provision whatever for their oftspring, the increase of bastardy would be great ? — My opinion is, that no just estimate of the consequences of the present state of the law can be formed in any district, at so early a period, with reference to bastardy; but I should consider that the case adduced in the question is one to which reference ought not to be made in order to estimate the true effects of the exist- ing law, because the principle upon which relief is administered elsewhere, particularly to that class of paupers, is, I believe, not adopted in Man- chester, that is, the relief is not given in a less desirable way than the wages of industry. 4762. Mr. Fielden.] You have suggested to the Committee a course of educa- tion, which you are disposed to recommend in the workhouses in Norfolk and Suffolk ; I think you stated that you did not wish to interfere with the education of the children of independent labourers, against the parents' consent ; am I cor- rect ? — I think that, under the administration of the Poor Law Amendment Act, there is no authority for that interference, and I believe that my answer to the question, which I do not now distinctly remember, must have had reference to that fact. 4763. Then the education that you propose is for the children who are put into the workhouses, in consequence of being unable to maintain themselves, or their natural g-uardians being unable to maintain them? — Certainly ; but I stated, in answer to certain questions that were proposed to me, that it did not appear to me inexpedient to permit that the children of independent labourers in the district should, if their parents were desirous, partake of the advantages provided for the pauper children. 4764. Is there any reason existing why the independent labourers cannot obtain for their children that education which you think is desirable ? — There are very strong reasons existing ; the first of those reasons is, that there are schools in the parishes in the agricultural districts ; that many of the schools that do exist are conducted upon very imperfect principles, and are very imper- fect in their details ; and I think that those are among the chief obstacles to the children of independent labourers obtaining that kind of instruction for their children which appears to me to be desirable. 4765. Has the poverty of the parents any thing to do with the obstructions to the children obtaining education ?— Inasmuch as a very efficient course of edu- cation can be given for a very small weekly payment, even when the school is conducted upon the best principles, and with the very best arrangements, I do not conceive that that forms the chief obstacle to their obtaining instruction for their children. 4766. But is the poverty of the parents an obstacle at all ? — My belief is, that the general apprehension that the wages of the labourers are insufficient to enable them to bring up their families in decency, is founded upon imperfect notions of that sort of economy which obtains among the poorer classes, and of the extent and nature of their resouices ; it so happens, that this very morning I have received from the county of Suffolk a note, which I will take the Uberty of reading to the Committee ; it is from Robert Newton Shawe, Esq., of Kesgrave, near Woodbridge, in the county of Suffolk. — " My dear sir, ^ As a certain party now contend that it is impossilalc for a labourer in these times to bring up an entire family of children without parochial assistance, I send you an account of the premiums given at our last meeting of the East Suftblk Agricultural Associa- tion, by which you will see that 24 labourers have brought up, or aie bringing up, 167 children, without ever having received parochial relief at all ; and none liaving received it, except in cases of sickness and accident. I dare say that I can look up similar results since the formation of the institution, if you think them useful." Then there is a shght additional note referring to something elsfe: ON THE POOH LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1833.) 3 else : " Faithfully yours, R. N. Shawe." The names of the labourers are given J- P- f^"y, Esq. in a pamphlet which accompanied the letter. **' "• 4767. Are the watres which those 24 labourers are receiving stated? — I do ,.""! T "■„ 7' ' . ^, ^ ^, » . ° ifa March 1838, not perceive that they are given. 4768. Is the writer of that letter a guardian? — He is the chairman of the Woodbridge Union. 4769. Chairman.] What is the general rate of wages in that country? — ^The rate of wages for week-day work, I think, is about 9 s. per week ; but that would not enable the Committee to form any thing like a correct estihiate of what are the real wages of labourers, especially of labourers having large families ; by which I mean, what is the average income of such a family, because a man with a large family seldom or never, I should say never, depends upon week-day wages, but is just that labourer who receives task-work, and the best kind of task-work, and whose yvife is most regularly put to employment by the master, and for whose children there is most employment ; besides which* sources of income, there are always means derived from perquisites, from gifts of wood and other kinds of fuel, from malt and corn, at harvest, perhaps, pieces of bacon, and other things of the same kind, which exceedingly increase the income of such a family, and which income alone appears to me to be the true means of estimating what the wages of such a family are. 4770. Mr. Fielden-I I have not yet obtained a direct answer to my question, whether the poverty of those independent labourers forms any impediment to their giving their children schooling ? — There are so few schools existing in the country, that I do not know that I am prepared to adduce any particular in- stances to the Committee, without further inquiry, in which schools are suppoi'ted entirely by the contributions of the labourers ; but knowing that the labourers do contribute to mutual assurance societies to a very great extent in certain districts, I have considerable confidence that the small payments required for the support of a village school could be made by the labourers. 4771. How long is it since the complaint of want of education amongst the labouring classes, in the rural districts, first began to be made ? — I really do not think that my information upon that subject is sufficiently accurate to enable me to state the precise period, but I am aware that a considerable anxiety on the part of individuals has existed for some time that there should be an improvement in the education of the poorer classes, in the rural districts, as well as elsewhere. 4772. You have stated, in your former evidence, that there are individuals who object to the education of those children altogether ? — I believe there are very few subjects upon which there is not a difference of opinion, and this one happens to be amongst the rest. 4773. Have you heard any reason assigned by tbose individuals who make those objections ? — I have heard reasons of this kind assigned, that the education of the labouring class might unfit them for the perlbrmance of their practical duties in life ; that the communication of a large amount of secular knowledge was inconsistent with the practice of religious duties and the preservation of the integrity of proper religious sentiments among that class ; and that, as respected industrial instruction, the ordinary course pursued in the country was preferable to any other. 4774. What ai-e those duties in life which they thoudit that those children should be trained to ? — To industry, to fidelity, and to the performance of their domestic and general social duties. 477,5. How long is it since any want of that has been discovered; or have those whom you have conversed with stated any period when those complaints first began to be made ?— I believe that one effect of the Poor Law Amendment Act has been to make every one more sensible that the domestic comfort and social condition of the labourers must, to a very large extent, now depend upon their industry and fidelity. There are many humane incUviduals who desire that the utmost assistance and support should be afforded to the labouring classes in a virtuous struggle to maintain themselves in a comfortable position in life, and amongst the rest of such means, that suflicient secular instruction should be afforded them. 4776. Is it not necessary that children who are to labour on the land should be trained in different occupations connected with husbandry, at an early age ? — Certainly, they are practically trained to accompany their fathers ; one of the chief benefits of the law is that children are now early trained in industry, 2 -''J- A 2 whereas 4 MINUI'ES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. P. Kay, Esq. whereas before, when the scale allowance was given to families, it acted as a '^•°' premium upon the non-employment of the children, so that the first and g j^j^ , g g immediate effect of the Poor Law Amendment Act is to promote the instruction in employment of the children of the poorer classes. 4777. If you shut up the children in workhouses where there is no field of occupation and no room for those pursuits, do you not at once check that train- ing which is necessary in order to form a good agricultural labourer ? — The effect of the law is this, that whereas formerly the vast majority of the children were unemployed, now the vast majority of the children are employed, and that it is only a minimum quantity or number of children that is in the workhouse for a certain period, where it is most desirable that their education should be care- fully watched, and particularly in the matter of industrial instruction. 4778. I think you stated that there was no land attached to the workhouse sufficient for the purpose of training those children in agricultural pursuits ? — I beg, with great deference to the Committee, to say, that with respect to the small schools connected with the workhouses, I said, that in the majority of instances there was quite sufficient land to aftbrd employment for the children in the im- mediate vicinity of the workhouse, and connected with the establishment ; but that if the schools were greatly increased, and I spoke of a concentration of the schools in which the number of children would be greatly increased, in a county school, it would be necessary to provide a larger space of land for the employ- ment of that larger number of children. 4779. Before then that system of instruction which you recommended should be adopted, you would suggest that land should be appropriated for the purpose of training those children in agricultural pursuits ? — Such land is already appro- priated for that purpose in connexion with the schools of the different union work- houses ; a certain small quantity of land, for example, a space of six or eight acres, would be quite sufficient to each of the four county schools in Norfolk and Suffolk, the maintenance of which I propose to the Committee. 4780. Have the children in those workhouses ever strayed away, in the unions which you have under your superintendence ? — It is only this morning and within this room that the chairman of one of the best managed unions in the county ^ , of Norfolk has informed me that it is with the greatest possible reluctance that children are induced to leave the union workhouses ; and I conceive that, per- haps, is, to a certain extent, a defect ; but the chairman has stated to me that they have frequently with tears in their eyes left the workhouse. 478 1 . Have you known of any children who have left the workhouses ? — I have known individual instances of children that have been unemployed, and con- cerning whom it is painful for me to state that I think the consequences of their non-employment and of their want of education had been to render them less faithful and less industrious, — that such children have on certain occasions run away from the workhouses. 4782. Have there been a great number of cases in the unions which you superintend where the children have left the workhouses ? — Certainly not ; those cases have been rather cases of exception to the prevalent I'ule. 4783. What steps have been taken for the correction of those children, and for making them sensible of what they have done, when they have so strayed from the workhouse ? — My general instructions to the schoolmasters have been, that it appeared to me to be quite unnecessary to resort to punishments in the cases of children, and that a system of mild discipline, in which attempts should be made to affect the minds of the children by moral expedients, rather than by coercive treatment, was the only correct system in the training of children. I remember having very strongly indeed remonstrated with a board of guardians, in which I found that the schoolmaster had, without the knowledge of the visiting committee, and without the concurrence of the board of guardians, resorted to some degrading punishment, and all such punishments have been, by the strongest admonitions, endeavoured to be suppressed in all the workhouses. Whenever the children have returned, I beheve that some slight alteration in the quality, but not in the quantity, of their food, or a little distinction in dress, has been adopted, and they have been admonished before the board of guardians. 4784. C/iainncni.] You are aware that, in one particular instance, chiklren have been punished by diminishing the quantity of their food ? — I am aware, from the proceedings of this Committee, in the last ParUament, that a case of diminution in ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (18^.) 5 in the quantity of food, afforded a child in one of the workhouses in Hampshire, j. p. Kay, Esq. was brought before the attention of the Committee. It has been my constant "■ ^■ care, in speaking concerning any change in the condition of a pauper, in conse- quence of misconduct in the workhouse, to state to the board of guardians, that '^ March 1838. whenever any change was made in the diet, it should consist of an alteration in quality, and not a diminution of quantity. 4785. Mr. LiddelL] You consider it quite unnecessary to have recourse to any corporal punishment in the education of children ?— I think in the best schools with which I am acquainted, recourse is not had to corporal punish- ment. 4786. Lord John Russell.'\ You said that you went to Scotland ; are you acquainted with the system pursued in the sessional school in Edinburgh? — I am. 4787. Is there not corporal punishment used there ? — In the sessional school there is ; but in the Glasgow Normal School corporal punishment is, I believe, entirely excluded. 4788. The master of the sessional school in Edinburgh is not of opinion that corporal punishment can be avoided ? — He holds a totally opposite opinion, and practices it. 4789. Did you find the Glasgow Normal Seminary a better school than the sessional school in Edinburgh ? — I consider that the utmost possible attention ought to be paid to all the expedients adopted by Mr. Wood, who is perhaps the most successful improver of education in this country ; but I think that the expedients adopted in the Glasgow school for the moral training are superior to those adopted in Mr. Wood's school, and I understand the question principally to relate to that department of the training. 4790. Mr. Fielden.] Have you children in the workhouses of any of the unions that you have the superintendence of, whose parents are not also in the workhouse ? — At the time that I requested a return to be made, in I believe the month of February, there were about 120 children in the workhouses of Norfolk and Suffolk, without their parents. 4791 . Children who had parents, whose parents were not in the workhouse with them ? — Yes. 4792. Have you heard of any instances of children leaving the workhouse and going a considerable distance, in order to get back to their parents ?— Such instances may have occurred, but I am not myself acquainted with the instances ; but I have also frequently known children of the upper classes do exactly the same thing, and an instance occurs to me at this very moment of two of the first families in Suffolk and Norfolk, who have encountered in their own children a similar disposition to truancy from some of the pubUc schools in the country. 4793. But the workhouse is not the same as a parish school ; there is a different system of discipline required in the workhouse from what there is in the parish school ?— In the workhouse schools in Norfolk and Suffolk, I should say that the system of disciphne is in every respect milder than it is in any parish school with which I am acquainted in the whole countiy. 4794. Are not the childi'en subject to the restraint and discipline which the adults are subject to in those workhouses ? — They are not. 4795. What is the difference ?— The children are allowed to walk in the garden ; m some of the unions they are allowed to walk out with the schoolmaster and schoolmistress to take exercise ; in one or two cases they are allowed to attend the parish church, accompanied by the schoolmaster or schoolmistress, or by the master of the workhouse ; they are furnished with the means of amusing themselves in the yards, and the whole disciphne is not intended in the slightest respect to be a disciphne of restraint, but simply one which will tend to their moral and general improvement. 479'5- Mr. LiddelL] And they are never whipped ?— I will not say that they are never whi[)ped, because I believe that the schoolmasters are by no means so skdful, ui many mstances, as to avoid the necessity of it ; in fact I know that punishment occasionally has been resorted to in some of the schools. 4797- Mr. Fielden.] Do those schools that you speak of form a part of the workhouse ?— In general they do. 4798- Mr. Scrope.] Are not they allovved in all cases to walk out?— When- ever application has been made for the permission, it has been granted • it has .->.-)n -, o » " -^3 not 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. P. Kay, Esq. ^^oi hitherto been sj'stematically encouraged ; but my own disposition leads me ' to wish that this practice should be encouraged. 16 M h 8 8 4799- ^° ^^^^ y°" think it desirable that children should be shown that there is a world without the workhouse, and that their ideas should not be limited to the scene which they have before their eyes in the workhouse ? — Indeed I do ; and my answer to questions on the previous day have, I trust, shown to the Conuuittee that my desire was that the workhouse should be made the means, as far as the children are concerned, of securing the cessation of their dependence, by elevating their moral condition. 4800. Should you not, therefore, feel it your duty to recommend to the boards of guardians generally that system? — Certainly I should; and it has been my intention to do so, an intention which has only been interfered with by the fact that the arrangements of the workhouses have only recently been brought into a state of operation, and that arrangement, among other things, has not received the attention which it deserves. 4801. Would you say the same with respect to their attendance at the parish church on Sundays ? — With respect to their attendance at the parish church, the first step in any thing of that kind is that inquiry should be made whether the minister and churchwardens of the church are able to provide accommodation in the church for the requisite number of children, or other inmates, who it might be desirable should attend the church, and if such arrangements could be made with the consent of the minister and the churchwardens ; if the church were not too distant from the workhouse ; if, also, arrangements could be made for con- ducting the children to and from the church, so as to obviate any liability of such a custom to abuse ; I beheve that I express what is the wish of all who desire that this law should produce the best moral effects upon the population, that, in cases so defined, the children should be permitted to attend the parish church. 4802. Mr. Liddell.] You do not think that it is one of the most necessary and desirable circumstances in the education of the children that they should attend the parish church ? — I am quite at a loss to perceive that there is any thing in my answer to the previous question which can be a ground of the question which is now put to me, because I hope that every thing that was contained in my previous answer is indicative of a sincere desire that they should attend the parish church. 4803. You made so many exceptions to the question of their attending the parish church, so many arrangements seemed to be necessary, that, in a great number of instances, their attendance at the parish church might be difficult, if not impossible, if all those arrangements have to be complied with? — It is quite appai'ent to the Committee, I hope, that the clergyman and the churchwardens ' ought to be consulted before the children of all the parishes of the union are sent to the parish church ; I hope that it is also quite apparent to the Committee that arrangements should be made for the children not suffering such fatigue, espe- cially the younger children, as would be injurious to their health by going to a, great distance ; and I hope it is evident to the Committee that it is reasonable that care should be taken that children should not be permitted to stray and vagabondize on the Sunday ; it is only for the prevention of such evils, and in order to meet the circumstances of the case, that the expedients which I sug- gested were recommended to the Committee. 4804. Chairman.'] In cases where the children could not go to the parish church, would you not consider it absolutely necessary that some provision should be made for their having rehgious service in the workhouse ? — I consider, on all grounds, that it is exceedingly desirable that there should be religious service in the workhouse on Sunday. In the first place, many of the infirm inmates cannot go to the parish church at all ; and the residence of the able-bodied in the work- house is transient, and the service must be performed for them, it being quite impossible that correct discipline could be maintained if the able-bodied were permitted to go abroad in a body on the Sunday. In the third place, the superintendence of the children during the week-day, the care of the moral and religious state of the inmates generally, the affording spiritual counsel and comfort to the sick and dying, all appear to me to render it necessary that there should be a chaplain, and it is but a small addition to the chaplain's duties that he should jierform tl)e service on the Sunday. 4805. Mr. Liddell. \ Do not you think it desirable, however, that the younger part i6 March 1838. ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 7 part of the establishment, in cases where accommodation could be afforded, should j. p. Kay, Esq. attend the parish church on the Sundays ? — I have stated, I believe, in answer »• «• to a previous question, that I do think so. 4Sot). Mr. Fielden.] When the children are taken into the workhouse, have they a different dress put on them from that in which they enter? — When the children come into the workhouse they are frequently, especially as the greater part of them are orphans or bastards, in rags and covered with dirt, and for the purpose of maintaining the health of a large establishment, it is absolutely necessary that a clean and decent dress should be provided, that persons who come into the workhouse should be properly cleansed ; and in the cases where I have known disease to occur in parochial workhouses, I am quite certain that the spread of that disease has been greatly favoured by the practice, which was common in the parochial workhouses, of permitting the inmates to retain their working clothes, and probably, clothes which were infected with disease long before they came into the workhouse. It is therefore a custom absolutely necessary for the preservation of health, and exceedingly salutary as promoting the comfort of individuals, that their dresses should be changed when they come into the workhouse. 4807. And that is the practice which prevails? — If in any case it were found not to occur, it would be considered, to that extent, a proof of incompetency on the part of the master for the discharge of his duty. 4808. Wliat was the reason for those 120 children who had been separated from their parents, and taken into the workhouse without their parents, being so taken from their parents and put into the workhouse ? — In answer to a ques- tion proposed to me on a previous day by the Committee, I stated, that a practice had prevailed, not merely in the incorporations, but also in the parishes, in Norfolk and Suffolk, previous to the alteration of the law, for admitting as a reUef to large families of labourers the children of those families into the workhouse, and that it appeared that no sudden adjustment of the disturbed relations which ought to exist between master and servant could occur ; by which I mean, that whereas, previously, a man having a large family only obtained day- wages, in many instances, and did not obtain piece-work, and work was not provided for his wife, or for the chiklren who were of an age to work ; and as arrangements among the agriculturists of the district by wdiich such an adjust- ment of the natural relations between master and servant could be brought about could not occur immediately, it appeared desirable, if not necessary, that the alteration that it was proposed eventually to effect should proceed by gradual measures ; and therefore, in the first instance, the allowances to large families were not taken away ; and, in the second instance, the practice of taking children of such families into the workhouses was permitted to survive, until it Avas evi- dent, from such an adjustment as that wiiich I have attempted to describe, that a sufficient income had been provided for large families by means of the em- ployment of the man, the wife and the children ; and the instances of deviation have been those instances in which the boards of guardians have conceived that the income at present provided for the large families was not sufficient for their maintenance. 4809. If those children were, in consequence of the parents being unable to maintain them, put into the workhouse, could it be a matter of surprise that any of the children should stray away from the workhouse in order to get back to their parents ? — Inasmuch as the parents do, or may generally, have daily access to the children at any hour ; inasmuch as the children are instructed and treated kindly in the ^chooLs, and their recreation is really made a matter of concern by certain boards of guardians; and inasmuch as a considerable amount of secular knowledge and industrial training is secured for the children, I really should greatly wonder if the children, seeing their parents from time to time, had any greater disposition to truancy than the children of the upper and middle classes from great schools. 4810. But those children having all the advantages which your answer sup- poses, would, it is fair to infer, be better satisfied with the w^orkhouse than with their parents, unless there were some cause in operation to make them other- wise ? — My belief is, that there will be found a very strong natural affection in all classes of society which will lead children to prefer the house of the parents even to great advantages elsewhere. --^- A 4 4811. Chairman.'] 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. P. Kay, Esq. 48 1 1 . Chairman.'] The love pf idleness in some degree may operate i' — *'• ^- Certainly. 4812. Mr. Fielden.'] Should not that natural affection be encouraged rather 16 March 1838. iii^^n suppressed? — Most certainly. 4813. Then were they not prompted by what you say ought to be encouraged, to leave the workhouse and go to their parents?— No more than occurs in the upper and middle classes in truancy from school. 4814. Do you refer to the upper and middle classes as being those who con- duct themselves best, and whose natural affection is the strongest ? — I am very glad that an opportunity is given me of expressing my opinion, that among all classes of society, as classes, any differences that may exist between the moral feelings and sentiments of those different classes are accidents of their station and education, and not inherent qualities of the class. 481,5. Then, supposing those children to have run away from the workhouse, am I to understand that it was not because they were dissatisfied \\dth the work- house, but because they preferred being with their parents to remaining in the workhouse ? — I believe, if inquiries were made into the instances of children who may have absconded from the workhouses, it would be found that their truancy arose from the great neglect of the previous training of those children, and that those children would be distinguished by being the least worthy, I should scarcely like to add, more vicious than any children in the workhouse. 4816. Have you heard of any of those children who have been thus treated being taken up and brought before the magistrates and convicted of theft ? — Multitudes of facts and circumstances necessarily occur to an Assistant-commis- sioner travelling about his district, coming in contact every day with totally new circumstances ; but as the Committee now put the question to me, I do not at this moment remember any one single instance in Avhich that has occurred. I remember having been present at a board of guardians at which some children were brought before the board for having absconded from the workhouse, and the question was raised, Wliat ought to be done with those children ? and I remember that my answer was, that the fact of their absconding was to be taken as a proof of one of two circumstances, either previous bad training before they came into the workhouse, or of bad training whilst they were in the workhouse ; and that the only corrective that ought to be applied would be, perhaps, some temporary distinction from the rest of the children, and that especial care should be taken of their future education. 4817. Do you think, by any system of training you can introduce, that you can make the children love the workhouse better than they love the cottage of their parents ? — I think it would be most injurious if any such result should occur, as the extinction of all the natural affections between parents and children, and the natural disposition there is to live in the home of one's child- hood, rather than elsewhere under greater advantages. 4818. Then you, as well as those who think with you on that subject, must lament the necessity that exists for separating the parents and children, and putting the children into one of the best-regulated workhouses ? — Certainly ; as far as that is a matter connected with the relief of indigence, it is my opinion, that the sooner the practice alluded to in the question is abandoned as a means for the relief of indigence, the better, chiefly as respects the greater protection that would be afforded to labourei's, by offering to take the whole of the family into the house, rather than a part of it ; and I may inform the Committee that the instances in which this practice has prevailed recently in Norfolk and Suffolk are evidently very few, inasmuch as in January last, notwithstanding we are now escaping from the practices of the allowance system, there were barely 120 chil- dren so circumstanced in the workhouses of 35 unions, containing 537,000 inhabitants. 4819. The practice then that has been pursued has been to take the children and the parents together into the workhouse ? — The practice which is now com- ing into operation gradually, as the convictions of the boards of guardians enable them to determine, from inquiry in their respective districts, that the adjustment between the income of the labourers and their wants (which I have endeavoured to describe in answer to a previous question) has occured, is to abandon the system of taking the children of the family into the workhouse, and to offer, in any case where the Avages may not appear to be sufficient for the wants of the family, the workhouse as a means of relief to the entire family. 4820. Do ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 9 4820. Do you expect that the operation of this Poor Law Act will do away J. P. Kay, Esq. with the necessity of separating parents from their children, and putting the ^■^- children into the workhouse ?— It is the strong desire of the Poor Law Commis- ^^ j^j^^^j^ ^g^g sioners, and it has been a wish repeatedly expressed by myseh" at the various boards of guardians, that they should, exercising a sound and deliberate dis- cretion, abandon that practice at the earliest possible moment. 4S2i.Mr. LiddcIL] That practice of separation ?~That practice of taking children of large families into the workhouse as a relief to the labourers. 4822. Mr. Fielden.] Do not you go farther ; do not you expect that there will be no necessity for the parents of the children to go into the workhouse, as well as the children themselves ?— I believe, from the experience we have had of the administration of the law in the various unions, that the necessity for able-bodied men accepting relief in the workhouse is constantly undergoing diminution, by the substitution of better relations between the master and servant than those which previously existed, and by the creation of a desire, both on the part of the servant and on the part of the master, to render their engagements permanent ; and I have very little doubt indeed that the diminution in the number of able- bodied men resident in the workhouse which up to this period has been constantly occurring, will proceed in the same or in a more rapid ratio, and that we shall have very few of that class in the workhouse, simply because that class will be employed. 4823. What is the necessity then that exists for the estabhshment of those county schools which you have suggested to the Committee ? — Because, in the return which I put into the possession of the Committee on a previous day, it would, on reference, be found that there are 443 bastards, 382 orphans, 279 chil- dren deserted by their fathers, 54 children deserted by father and mother, 171 children of men undergoing punishment for crime, 1 1 G children of persons de- pendent upon parochial aid on account of mental or bodily infirmity, and other classes of children, of which the numbers are much smaller, who are resident in the workhouse in consequence of being deprived of the guardianship of their parents by physical or legal disabilities ; and it is for those classes especially, on the ground that there are such children in the workhouse, that I propose to the Committee that there should be county schools. 4824. You are speaking of the state of things now ; I think I have gathered from your former answer that you expect so wonderful a change, from the opera- tion of the new Poor Law, that those cases are not likely to arise again nearly to the same extent? — I did not state, concerning the classes of children that I have now read, that I expect there will be the same material diminution in the number of those classes that I expect in the number of children of able-bodied labourers; and I may add, that this return does not furnish the Committee with information that there are many children of able-bodied labourers in the work- house, but the contrary. 4825. Is not the number of children, there spoken of, in the workhouse, the consequence of the improper administration of the poor laws, before the Poor Law Amendment Act was passed? — I believe that the indigence of those children arises from delects in the constitution of society, occasioning, in the first place, the indigence of bastards; in the second place, the indigence of orphans ; in the third place, the indigence of children deserted by their fathers, and of children deserted by father and mother ; hut I do not contend with the Committee that those defects all arise, and are all referable to the former state of the poor law ; there are many other defects, of which every one is conscious, in the existing order of things, which it may be very difficult to remove, and affecting the con- dition of classes of children who are deprived of all guardianship of their parents, by physical or legal disabihties. 4826. Mr. Liddell.'] You have stated that the workhouse should, under the improved practice of the law, be made a I'efuge for entire families of persons who are unable to support themselves and their families by their own industry ; are not those cases in which other alternatives might present themselves to you? — Those alternatives do not occur to me. 4827. If relief at home were offered instead of in the workhouse ? — That would be an immediate interference with the income of the labourers, especially of the most industrious and faithful labourers, throughout the district, which, if it were passed by Parliament, would occasion dissatisfaction amongst the most intelligent individuals in the counties with which I am acquainted. 220. B 4828. But 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. P. Kay, Esq. 4828. But you think that in no instance relief should be given at home, under M. D. the existing state of the law, to deserving families of able-bodied labourers who may be placed in temporary distress ? — I have already stated to the Committee 16 March 1838. thai I desire that the ultimate legitimate effects of the law should be sought by gradual measures ; and I have already stated to the Committee that I have not applied myself generally to procure the immediate extinction of the practice which, I have stated, prevails, of relieving large famiUes by taking certain of the children into the house ; but if I am asked what ought ultimately to be done, I should state that the best protection that could be afforded to industrious and faithful labourers is to secure to them the true I'eward of that industry and fide- lity, and not to lower them to the level of less industrious and less faithful men; by which I mean to say that the present practice in the unions, with certain exceptions that are in the course of abandonment, is to relieve out of the work- house able-bodied labourers' families ; but in case of the sickness of the head of the family, or in case of the sickness of the wife or of the children, rendering a larger income desirable for that labourer, an exception is made, upon a true and careful estimate of his means, in consequence of the increased outlay attendant upon sickness. It appears to me, therefore, that sufficient provision is made for exceptions, if those exceptions are admitted. 4829. Has it been the practice in the unions in Norfolk and Suffolk to give medical relief to the families of able-bodied men in case of sickness ? — I am desirous to refer to the report which I presented to the Poor Law Commissioners in the year 1836, respecting the principles upon which it was my custom to ad- vise the boards of guardians to administer medical relief in the counties of Nor- folk and Suffolk ; it is there stated, that " the persons who are to receive rehef by medicine under the union contract cannot be predetermined, so as to be arranged in a class, and their numbers will, under a correct method of adminis- tration, constantly diminish. The persons who are to receive this form of relief can only be determined by special acts of discretion, in ordinary cases exercised by the board of guardians, and in extraordinary cases by the churchwardens, overseers and justices of the peace. It is evident, therefore, that relief by medicine may be extended to those who are not receiving relief by money or relief by flour." And under such general explanations, relief has hitherto been conducted in the majority of the unions with respect to the able-bodied labourers who appeared not to be able to provide medical assistance for themselves, or who had not entered the medical clubs. 4830. In the answer that you have read, partly from that printed book, I observe the term " special acts of discretion ;" do you think that many cases may not arise when special acts of discretion may be left to the board of guardians ? — Those special acts of discretion are acts of discretion similar to those which the board of guardians constantly exercise in ordinary cases of relief, as, for example, when they determine whether or not the workhouse shall be offered, whether or not an exception shall be made to the ordinary rules on account of par- ticular features in the case ; and all such acts of discretion are the peculiar province of the boards of guardians, and that which they constantly and invariably exercise. 4831. CteVman.] Are you aware that those recommendations of yours, which you have just read, with reference to medical relief, have been adopted in the report of the Poor Law Commissioners ? — I do not know that they have been adopted from the suggestion contained in my report, but I know that the Poor Law Commissioners entertain exactly similar views, and have put forth exactly similar statements in their report of that year. 4832. Lord John Russell.] With respect to the education of those children who, you think, might be maintained in county schools, you have stated that there would not be much difficulty with reference to religious instruction ? — I have stated that in Norfolk and Suffolk, as far as my acquaintance extended with the counties, that I do not think that serious embarrassments would be encoun- tered. 4833. Do you think that that would be the case with respect to the children of independent labourers in places where there were a considerable number of dissenters? — I think that in proportion as the number of dissenters increased, the liability to embarrassment might increase, and I can conceive that conscientious dissenters might desire that, besides the relief afforded them under the 19th section of the Poor Law Amendment Act, some other provision for the attend- ance ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) ii aiice of their spiritual advisers might be adopted in districts where dissenters are j. p. Kny, E.q. H. O. very numerous. ^ -.i * «. . 4834. You have not had occasion to find much embarrassment with respect to that question, in the instances that have come under your observation?— 3 • Hitherto I am not aware of any instances, and I think that very much arises trom the circumstance that the children are of a class, for the most part, whose parents have little care of their moral or religious instruction, or they have no parents or they are children of able-bodied labourers, who are for only a very short period m the workhouse. , , , ^ c 1 , 483,5. Mr. Fielden.'] Is the rate of wages 9s. a week, by the week, lor able- bodied labourers generally, in the district which you superintend?— I believe that the rate of wages per week varies from 9s., or even 8s., in particular instances, to 10s or 1 1 s. in other instances ; but I may state to the Committee my con- viction, that tlie rate of wages for day-work really has no exact relation to the amount of income by piece-work, and by the general employment of famihes, by wliich I mean, that in districts even where the rate of wages for day-work is low it does not necessarily follow that the income of families from piece-work shall not be as large as in another district, though the rate of wages there for day-work is higher, because the income of families depends much more upon the prices given for piece-work, the collateral advantages which are given under such circumstances, and the nature and extent of the employment afforded to the mother and the children, than it does upon the rate of day-wages. 4836. I think I am right in stating that, on a former day, you stated that the farmers in Norfolk and Suffolk are a wealthy people, possessed of great means ; and vou also stated that they think they are deeply interested in raising the wages of tlie labourers ; am I correct in that?— I stated that the farmers in Norfolk, particularly, are many of them persons of much more extensive occupations and of much larger capital and much greater skill than, from what I have heard and what I know, they are in other districts of England ; and I stated that I beUeved that they were aware that their personal interest was connected wath the labourers ha^-ing a remunerating price for their labour ; and I found my opinion upon infor- mation that in Ireland, and in other parts of England, where the rate of wages is low, that low rate of wages is invariably connected with a less amount of exertion on the part of the labourers, as compared with districts where the annual income of the labourers is high. In the latter case they are not merely more industrious and skilful, but they do more work in the year than in parts of the country where the rate of wages is low. If you take the example of Ireland, it is stated, on the very best authority, that an Irish labourer, in his own country, does no more than a third of the work of an EngUsh labourer in this country ; his wages are about one-third ; and I know from what I have observed on the Continent, that when- ever the incomes of the labouring population are low, their exertions are necessarily less, and their labour is less valuable. I believe that the observations which practical men make lead them, in their own districts, to come to the same conclusion, and that an intelligent farmer desires that his labourers shall receive whatever price for their labour is necessary to develop their industry and fidehty to himself, and that he conceives that he has a direct and immediate advantage in the labourers being satisfied with their engagements. 4837. The farmers of Norfolk and Suffolk are wealthy and intelligent, gene- rally speaking, are they not? — I do not mean to say that there are not exceptions to the general rule— indeed I know that such exceptions are not few in number —but I do mean to say that I know entire districts of Norfolk, and entire dis- tricts of Suffolk, where, judging from the opportunity I have had of observing the intelligence, and the means I have had of obtaining information of the wealth, of the farmers, I should say that they are a class in their station of life having abundant means, and having as great a disposition to perform the duties of their station as any class in the country. 4838. Was I right in saying that you had observed that they thought they were interested in promoting good wages ? — In promoting a remunerative price for the labour of their workmen. 4839. What do you mean by a remunerating price ? — Such a price for labour as shall sustain the labourer in strength to perform his labour, and as shall supply him with motives for industry and fidehty to his master. 4840. Do labourers, in Norfolk and Suffolk, now receive such a remunerating price for their labour ? — I do not mean to say that throughout the whole districts of Norfolk and Suffolk there are not numerous instances in which every body would •220. B 2 desire 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. p. Kay, Esq. desire to see an increase of the rate of wages and the income of labourers, but *'• °- I mean to say this, that both the annual income of labourers has, under the operation of the law, in a multitude of instances increased, and that 16 March 1838. \\^q\^ contentment with their condition has, in my belief, also considerably increased. 4S41 . That is not an answer to the question I have put ; you have stated that it is the desire of the wealthy and intelligent that the rate of wages should be so remunerating that the labourers could support their health, and be well fitted for the employment in which they have to engage ; the question I put was, whether the rate of wages is now remunerating to that extent ? — I will not say that a positive advantage might not be obtained by the labourers by an increase in their annual income ; every increase in their annual income is a positive advantage ; I am disposed to promote, by every legitimate means, such an increase in the annual income of the labourer ; when I therefore used the term " remunerating price," it must always have a comparative relation ; I speak of remunerating price, in the present instance, as compared with what occurred before ; there has, in my belief, been an increase in the annual income of the labourers, and it is nearer now what I should wish it to be than it was before. 4842. Did I understand rightly your answer, that the guardians and the intelligent part of the people of Norfolk and Suffolk have expressed it as their desire, as being most consistent with their interests, that wages should be raised? — Certainly ; from what they were at the period when the unions were formed. 4843. What are the obstacles in the way of those who are the tenants of the soil, which prevent their raising the wages of labour ? — It is quite plain, I think, that there must be a certain relation between the profits of capital and the wages of labour ; it is consistent with that principle, that wherever there is more skill and capital employed, and therefore more profit obtained, the wages of labour are higher ; and I conceive that, amongst the obstacles to raising the wages, has been the great interference which has occurred with the industry of the labourers, and with the productive employment of capital, raider the previous systems of administering relief, by which a large portion of capital was abstracted from productive employ- ment, and was really employed as a direct means of impairing the industry of the labourers ; as far as the Poor Law Amendment Act is concerned (and it is to that that I would desire to confine my replies) , it appears to me that what is essential to procure the change in the income of the labourers is, that the capital which has been thus unproductively employed, should be applied, under better management, to increase the fund for the maintenance of labourers directly, by procuring productive employment for the absence of employment, and also by increasing the industry and skill of the working classes, which would itself enable them to increase the fund for the maintenance of labourers. 4844. Supposing all the members of the boards of guardians in Norfolk thought it desirable that wages should be raised, and that they had an interest in the rise of wages, what prevents them from entering into an understanding, and raising the wages at once ? —It would be quite impossible that they should do so, because I conceive that wages are not a thing to be determined by individuals, but to be determined by general laws affecting the condition of society, and affecting the principles regulating the connexion between capital and labour, and any interference by all the occupiers of Norfolk could not eventually raise the rate of wages if it were not consistent with those principles ; it might occasion this, that, "in the form of gratuity, something that is not wages should be given to the labourers, as has been given before, but it could not occasion any altera- tion in the relation between wages and the profits of capital. 484,5. What are the general laws which you allude to as being necessary to bring about this change, which they say is desirable, and which they have an interest in bringing about? — I am afraid that I have been a little misunderstood, from the terms in which the question is put ; when I say general laws I mean general principles. 4846. Suppose one of the farmers in Norfolk were to advance his wages to 12,?. aweek, whois now paying 9 •?., could not the other farmers follow the example, and thereby bring about what they think is for their interest ? — It is quite possible that the farmers of Norfolk might give the whole of their substance to the poor, but it appears to me that in disposing of their capital in that way, not according to the principles upon which industry is only legitimately to be regu- lated, they would not do the poor, in the long run, good, that it would be only a temporary ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 13 temporary departure from what appears to me to be the evident true principle of J. P. Kav, Esq. action, that society cannot be sustained except by consulting the interests of all " ^• classes ; and I did not mean, when I said that the farmers had a direct interest " in the increase of the labourers' wages, to say any thing but this, that the 16 March 1838. increase being the effect of natural circumstances, the wages of those labourers was connected directly and immediately with the prosperity of the farmers. 4847. But I have not yet ascertained what it is that prevents them raising the ■wages of the labourers, when, from your answer, I am informed that they con- sider themselves that tliey have an interest in doing so ? — For example ; if, next year, it were found that farms in Norfolk produced more profit, one of the imme- diate consequences of that must, I beheve, necessarily be, that the labourers should receive more wages ; and I do not see how any combination of occupiers could prevent the labourers obtaining those wages, if it were not, as I have pre- viously stated it to be, obviously the interest of the masters to increase the industry and skill of the labourers by promoting their obtaining the natural reward of their labour. 4848. The labourers themselves would he as glad as the farmers that the wages should rise, would they not ? — Certainly. 4849. Then, if there is a disposition on the part of the farmers to raise wages, and a disposition on the part of the labourers to receive higher wages, what is it that prevents them from co-operating and effecting that end ? — It is just that dis- position which would prevent us all from giving away our money without receiv- ing any return ; and whenever the farmers find that they can procure a produc- tive return for their money, maintaining the proportion of profit to the money given, they will give the labourers an advantage. 48.10. Then the farmeis have not a greater interest in retaining the money and withholding it from wages, than they have in giving higher wages ? — Cer- tainly not ; they have a direct interest in every successive increase of the wages of labourers, provided that be connected with the natural operation of capital in increasing the amount of the products procured by the application of that capital. 4851. But I gather from your answer that they have two conflicting inter- ests, one to spend their capital, which keeps down wages, and another interest, which I want to know where it is, that of raising wages, or where it originates ? — Those two interests which are adverted to in the question are entirely recon- ciled by this consideration, that money employed with skill, either upon the land or in the employment of labourers, which insures a certain amount of return of profit, is so employed because it is for the advantage of the farmer, or of the other capitalists, to employ it in that manner, and it is just the same principle which occasions any person to expend a large amount of money in a mill and manufactory, with a view to profitable return, that would induce a farmer, if circumstances permitted it, to increase the wages of his labourers, with a view to a profitable return. 48/) 2. Does this country grow a sufficiency of corn for the consumption of its inhabitants ? — I believe that corn is imported into this country, and particu- larly that in certain seasons it has been imported largely. 4853. llie necessity for importation has arisen from the deficiency of corn grown in this country ?— Certain products, either of the soil or of the industry of the people, have been sent abroad with a view to buy corn, which is returned as the wages of the labourers. 48.54. Then what is there in this country to prevent the farmers all uniting for one common object, viz., raising the price of the produce of the soil, and at the same time raising the wages of the labourers ?— I believe there are cer- tain laws which relate to that subject which put a certain amount of limitation upon that combination, but I humbly conceive that subject is one of such remote and extensive consequences, that if the Committee proceed with such an examination it must relate to the theory of the i)resent corn laws, and must not concern the relief of indigence. 4855. 1 have put this question to you because you have stated that the farmers of Norfolk and Suffolk are so intelligent and so desirous of raising the wages of the labourers, to ascertain what the impediments are in the way of their efiiecting the rise of wages ; if they have that strong desire which you have expressed, and are possessed of that intelligence that they cannot be mistaken in what is right to be done, why is it that the wages have not been raised to ^20. B 3 such 14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 1 J. P. Kay, Es4. such a state that the labourers can live without parochial aid ? — In the first »«• D- place, the labourers for the most part throughout Norfolk and Suffolk do live ,~~ ~~ without parochial aid ; and, secondly, I have not stated any thing but this, that 1 arc 1 3 . ^j^g more wealthy and intelligent of the farmers of Norfolk and Suffolk do per- ceive that they have a direct interest in the productive employment of capital, whether it be upon the land or in the form of wages to their labourers. 4856. Are there any poor in Norfolk and Suftblk ? — I distinguish very much between poor and destitute ; there are a vast number of poor, in the sense in which I understand that term. 4857. Are there a great many who cannot, from the wages they receive for their labour, support their famihes in comfort ? — I think that there are not many who cannot support their famihes in comfort, and that such chiefly are the inmates of the union workhouses. 4858. The able-bodied labourers on the land, who are allowed no relief out of the workhouse, you think are in that state, as regards their annual income, that they may maintain themselves in comfort? — I do not mean to say that I should not desire to see their comforts increased, but I mean to say that the domestic comfort of those labourers' families has, in my belief, increased since the intro- t duction of this law. 4859. The question I put was, whether there were not a great number of able- bodied labourers who are denied relief out of the workhouse, whose annual income, as you have put it, is insufhcient for their comfortable maintenance ? — I must, with great deference to the Committee, say, that it appears to me that the terms used are of necessity general terms ; and that I fear very much to be misunderstood in the answer which I make to the question ; for example, to be understood to mean that I would place the comfort of the labourer at a very low point; and it was with that view that in answer to the previous question I stated that I should desire that the comfort of the labourers' families should increase, and that it had increased, in my belief; and I do not really know how I am to give an - answer to the question in general terms, which shall free me from misconception. 4860. I will take an individual case to illustrate this point: you have stated that some of the labourers are receiving 8*. a week, in some of the unions under your superintendence ; that there are others receiving 9 s. a week ; take an able- bodied labourer himself, his wife and four young children ; can you state how that man is to live in any thing approximating to comfort at all, out of the wages which he receives out of that labour ? — I beg to state to the Committee that I have, in all my answers to the questions previously put to me, distinguished between the annual income of the labourers and the wages per week ; and I beg therefore to free myself from misconception in my answer to the question, inas- much as I do not believe it would be correct, in any instance in Norfolk or Suflblk, to state that the wages are Ss. a week to a labourer having three or four children. I am supported in my conclusion by a document which I put into the possession of the Committee on my first day's examination, and in which I find that in the case of 120 families, concerning whose annual income I have received a return, the average number of whose family was 3^'^ (one of these children being in each case above ten years of age), the average annual income is stated to be 35/. 9s., which is considerably more than 8s. a week. 4861. How much does it exceed it ? — It is 14/. 13s. more. 4862. How many persons had to subsist upon that amount of income? — Nearly six persons, in the case supposed. 4863. What will that give per week for each individual? — Upon a rough estimate at the moment, I imagine it would be 2s. 3d. per head per week, or \Zs. GcZ. a week for the family. 48(34. The head of this family is an able-bodied labourer, and he must be supported in a condition to enable him to execute his labour with satisfaction to his employer, and without any improper waste of his strength; how much would the head of that family require, in your estimation, for his own maintenance? — I confess myself to be entirely incapable of making such an estimate ; and I believe that all persons who have endeavoured to make such an estimate have failed, the fact being that estimates of the most various kinds have been made by different individuals under similar circumstances ; with the examples of failure, which are exceedingly numerous, before me, I feel that I should encounter the charge of extreme rashness if I were to attempt to make any such estimate. 486/5. Do you not conceive it to be a matter of very great importance that proper M. D. 16 March 1838. ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 15 proper estimates should be made as to the sum upon which a man with a family J. P. Km/, Esq. can live, who is to earn his daily bread ? — I do think it of great importance that the labourer should have a sufficient income ; but in what way an estimate upon that subject would enable him to obtain a larger income, I confess myself to be quite at a loss to determine. 4866. You have stated that the income now exceeds the income that this laboiu'er received before he came under the operation of the new Poor Law ? — I have no doubt in the world upon that subject. 481)7. Including the allowance from the parish and the wages he received from labour ? — Upon that subject I think that I could furnish the Committee with some evidence, inasmuch as I have had stated to me, in documents which are in my possession, that the allowance for unemployed labourers was, in a considerable district, not more than Is. \fd. per head per week ; whereas in the case which has been brought under the notice of the Committee, the income from wages was 2s.3d. per head per week, being double what was the allowance in a similar district under the allowance system. I have, for example, a letter in my possession, from a gentleman of the highest possible respectability, who entertains sincere objections to the operation of the law, and whose objections to the law were stated to the Poor Law Commissioners, in which letter he informs the Com- missioners that the allowance to the labourers of his district was only Is. 1 f (Z. per head per week when they were out of employment ; and he founds on that statement an argument, that the parishes in which tliat allowance prevailed should not be united, because the cost of maintaining the labourer in the house would be three times as much. 4S()8. The allowance you are now speaking of was the allowance made when the head of the family was out of employment ? — Certainly ; but I can also show to the Committee the scale of the district by which what was supposed to be necessary to support the family was not superior to that allowance. 4869. What were the wages of the labourer when in employment before the new Poor Law came into operation in the cUstrict to which you have alluded ? — - I am not quite certain that I can, in reference to the particular district, answer the question with all the precision that I could desire ; but I could obtain the information for the use of the Committee ; it is difficult for me to carry every particular parish and chstrict in my mind as to the rate of wages previously paid, and the rate of wages now paid, and I should wish my answers to the questions to be as precise as possible. 4870. When you say that the annual income of the 120 persons has increased, it necessarily follows that you must have had something to compare it ; with what did you make the comparison, in order to show the increased income now over that which they had before the new law came into operation ? — I think it must be apparent to the Committee, that if it be shown, as is shown in the statement which I have already put the Committee in possession of, that the average income of a family, containing about four children, is, in the circum- stances stated, for the entire year about 13s. 6d. a week, and the scale of allowance which was given to families of that size in particular districts did not really exceed Is. 1 f d. per head per week, upon statements upon which I have a great reliance, while out of employment through very considerable portions of the year, the difference between the two is represented by the difference between 13 s. 6 d., and the allowance of 1 s. IfcZ. per head at such periods. 487 I . That Is. If fl I have understood you to be the sum allowed when they were out of work ; was it not made more than that sum when they had work ? — I find, in the particular district referred to, the scale was for those fully employed to the following effect : wages 9 s. per week until there was a family of five children. 4872. Chairman.] At what date was this? — Previously to the introduction of the law. When there were six children. Is. was added, making it lOs; when there were seven children, 1 s. 7^ d. was added, making it 10 s. 7^ d. ; and when there were eight children, 2s. 3d. was added, making the wages 1 1 s. 3 (Z. a week for a family consisting of a man, a wife and eight children, when flour was at the price oi 2 *-. per stone. 4873. What would be the present state of things as affecting a family of the same size ?— I find, that in the return, of which 1 put the Committee in posses- sion, there is one class of labourers stated to have seven children, and the nicome of those labourfers averages 50 /. 18 s. 6 d. in the year to which those returns referred ; but I find, that in the return which I have made, which is the only one 220. B 4 which i6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 4. P. Kay, Esq. which would enable me to make a calculation, there were four children above ■M. D. 10 years of age ; the subject is an exceedingly difficult one upon which to insti- ~ tute a comparison, and I do not know that I could furnish the Committee with 1 arc 1 3 . p^gjjjgg statistical evidence as exact as I could desire, the data thus accidentally referred to being insufficient. 4874. Chairman.] Take the case of a family with four children, before the law, below 10 years of age, and take the same family now?— I find, in the case of a man, his wife and four children, that in the scale to which I have referred, no relief would be given beyond the wages of labour, the wages being 9 s. a week, and the price of flour 2 s. a stone. 4875. Take the case of a family of the same size under the present circum- stances ? — -A family of that size, as I have previously stated in the returns which have been furnished to me by intelligent farmers, would have an income of 351. 9s., which would be 13s. 7d. per week, being an addition of 4 5. 7d. a week among intelligent farmers. 4876. What is the price of flour now ? — The price of flour is about 2 s. I d. per stone. 4877. Being an increase of I d. a. stone ? — I think it may be taken to be about the same ; I have chosen the scale upon that price of flour, because it resem- bled the present price. 4878. Then the income of that family would appear to be increased to the amount of 4 s. 7 d. a week ?— I beheve that would not be a perfect representa- tion of the difference ; the man would have one resource in both cases, which is not estimated when his income is taken at only 9 s. per week under the former law ; that is, he would obtain his harvest-wages and gleaning, which would increase his income for four or five weeks to, perhaps, somewhere about 18 s. or H. a week. 4879. That, therefore, must be added to the annual income arising from the wages ? — Yes ; but I am not aware that there would be any other source of income ; I believe, in the entire year, in the parishes to which the scale refers, such men under the former law were often kept in day-work for day wages, not exceeding, as described in the scale, 9 s. a week ; the time when they got any other work was during the harvest, when they received harvest wages. 4880. This is a family having four children, whose income would appear to be increased by 4^". 7 d. upon the general weekly wages ? — In taking into account the income of that family, I have included harvest wages, and therefore that makes a certain amount of deduction from the IS*'. 7d., or a certain addition must be made to the other. 48S1. But, upon the whole, including the addition which you would make in the instance of a man receiving 9 s. a week on account of harvest work during four or five weeks, does it appear to you that the condition of the labourer with four children has improved since the alteration of the law ? — I may say, that those statistical statements are not perfectly conclusive, and merely tend to confirm the opinion which I have formed, but I have received most positive assurances that industrious labourers, having families of the size described, are in more comfortable circumstances than they were before. 4882. That increase of comfort being attributable partly to a direct rise of wages, and partly to an increase of employment given in the shape of piece- work to him or to different members of his family?— More to the increase of employment given in task-work, or the increase of his income from various acci- dental sources, than to the direct increase of the wages per week, which, though they have increased somewhat, have not tended to increase the income of the family so much as the other sources of income have. 4883. If a recurrence were had to the allowance system as it previously existed, or in any way in which you can contrive an allowance system, do you think that the comfort of the labouring class generally would be increased by it ? — I consider that, instead of the amount of the piece-work which is now given, there would be a recurrence to the system of employing men upon day wages, and that there would be an effort to make up those low wages in particular instances of large families to a supposed scale of necessity for the wants of those families ; but then it is evident that the income of the famihes proposed in the question would be considerably smaller than it now is. 4884. Sir 2'. Fremuntle.'] You have made a calculation that a labourer with four childien would receive a certain amount of income in the course of the year on an average ; does that proceed upon a calculation that he is in constant employment M. D. 16 March 1838. ON THP: poor law amendment act. (1838.) 17 employment during the whole of the year ? — The way in which that question is j. p. Kay, Esq. determined is by procuring from respectable farmers the actual amount of money which they have paid and recorded in their books, to families of labourers, 120 such cases being taken as the basis upon which that average is obtained ; I con- ceive that the labourers were not probably in full employment during the entire year in every case, and that, in some cases, the income was larger, and in some it might be smaller than the income stated, but what it is desirable to show to the Committee is, what the average under all the circumstances is. 488,5. Without reference to those particular cases of which you are speaking, have you not found that able-bodied men, who may get higher wages under the present system, are frequently thrown out of work for a week or ten days at a time, during which period tliey obtain neither wages nor allowance ?— I think that the cases of those who obtam higher wages are just those for whom the law affords the greatest protection, inasmuch as they are men with large famiUes and with great responsibilities, and that they have secured for themselves a con- nexion with their masters by increased industry and superior fidelity, to the termi- nation of which connexion the master himself is exceedingly averse, and that besides that obstacle so created, there is the further obstacle that those men, if thrown out of employment, would be sooner overtaken by necessity, and sooner obliged to accept an expensive maintenance in the workhouse, by which the charge to the occupiers would be greatly increased. 4886. Mr. Scrope.] Are the 120 cases upon which your statement is grounded cases of average labourers, or do you think that any enter into them of a superior class of labourers than the rest, such as carters and shepherds, and such like ? — I believe that the average may include some such persons, and, from inspect- ing the returns myself, I think they are fairly made, so as not to include an unfair proportion of such cases ; and as respects the wages of carters, they are not the most highly paid in Norfolk ; the young men are for the most part drivers of teams, and they receive generally 10*. to 12s. a week, 10s. being the common price, whereas by other kinds of employment in task -work the men will ordinarily earn 12s. or 14s. a week, instead of lOs. ; and the more industrious and faithful labourers are not employed as team-drivers, but they are employed in threshing wheat and doing task -work of that description, by which they earn a larger amount of wages. 4887. You think the mass of 120 represent the class of labourers who for- merly received 9s. a week ?— My impression is, that it represents the income of labourers, with the family supposed, when they are in the employment of intelli- gent occupiers ; I do not think any return of that kind could be obtained, under the circumstances, upon which one would not be desirous of making certain cor- rections ; but when I state this much to the Committee, I hope that it is under- stood that I state it under all such corrections, simply as the best approximation I could make to the truth. 4 8 88. You have shown that the married men with large famihes have improved in their circumstances, in those districts, from the change ; have you any evidence of the same kind with regard to the single men, or men with small families ? — I find that the allowances to the single men when out of employment, under the old system, varied according to the price of flour, being, in instances in which the flour was 2s. a stone, 2s. 3d. per week, and in one instance, I find, in which the flour was 2s. 3d. a stone, 2s. \^d. per week ; now, I believe it is generally known that single men are just those persons who, whether under the allowance system or under the present system, are persons who are first thrown out of em- ployment ; one of the immediate effects of the measure is, that the person whose maintenance is least expensive in the workhouse is thrown out of employ- ment first ; and there is another reason, which is evident, that a single man has a more loose connexion with his master than a married man. 4889. Chairman.] He is generally a labourer of less experience '? — Yes ; so that if that were taken into the account as a reason why the employment of single men, under the former system, was very liable to interruption, and that they were, during a considerable portion of the year, subsisting upon the parish allowance, and it be remembered that parish allowance very little exceeded 2 s. a week ; I cannot hesitate to say, that I think the condition of the single man must be materially improved. 4890. Are you acquainted with any facts which show that they are more em- ployed than they used to be, or that their rate of wages has increased , is it not ^-0- c a natural i8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. P. Kfw, Esq. a natural fact, that the wages, having increased with regard to married men, must *'• "• also have increased with respect to single men ? — Amongst the returns which ~ are made to me, I find there were 36 single men enumerated, whose average larch 1838. j^j^j^^^j^i income, from all sources, was 25/. 1*. 4^d., since the passing of the Poor Law Amendment Act. 4891. Mr. Fielden.] Tlte conclusion you have arrived at is this, that now an able-bodied man, with four children, can obtain an annual income of 35 /.9 s.; whereas, before the new law came into operation, this same man had no allow- ance beyond 9 s. a week, which would be 23 I. 8 s. for a year; and giving him 18 s. a week for the additional five weeks for the harvest work, brings his income to 251. 13s.; so that this able-bodied labovu'er is now in the receipt of an in- creased income of 9 /. 16 s. ; is that what you mean to state to the Committee ? — I have already stated to the Committee that the returns made to me must be con- sidered only average returns, and I am desirous also of stating, that the returns are obtained from farmers who keep books, therefore they are returns made by farmers of a certain amount of superior intelUgence, because I think it is known generally that there is a class of persons who do not keep books, from whom it would be impossible to obtain such returns ; I believe that among that class of persons it is possible that a somewhat inferior income might be obtained by the labourers, and therefore that some deduction, if the class of labourers employed by them is to be taken into account, wliich it ought to be, in striking the average, is to be made from the 35Z. 9s. ; but when that deduction is made, as far as I follow the calculations put in the statement, and supposing the calculations made in it to be correct, I think that every legitimate deduction will have been made. 4892. You have spoken of 120 families, whose average income amounts to 35 /. 9 s. per annum, and I have been led to understand, from the answer you have given, that the able-bodied labouring man, with a wife and four children, would obtain that sum for his maintenance, for the labour that he gave to liis em- ployer ; taking 120 families, before the passing of the new law, and taking the wages, as you have stated them, at 9 s. per week, the result shows tliat before the, new law those families only received 25 Z. 13s., whereas now they receive 35 /. 9 s. for the year ; is that the conclusion that you wish the Committee to draw ? — I made a certain statement, that I conceived that among the less intelli- gent farmers, and also occupiers of less skill and capital, it would be very possible, if an equally accurate return could be obtained from them (which it is not within my power to do, and I fear not within the power of any other person, inasmuch as they do not keep books), that a certain deduction would have, in those cases, to be made from the income of that number of families of the class described ; but I am prepared to say that my belief is, that when the whole of that deduction is made, and if the returns were made to include only the class of labourers employed by farmers of less capital and skill, it would not reduce the amount of income of such labourei'S to the income which they derived under the scale which I have described to the Committee as being in use under the former law. 4S93. I will put a case of an able-bodied labourer with a wife and four children ; I inferred from your answer that a person so circumstanced can now obtain from his employer 35/. 9s. a year ; you also stated that, before the law this man was receiving 9s. a week, and that 9s. a week was thought sufficient, . and therefore no allowance was made to him from the parish ; the 9 s. a week, with the five weeks' harvest at 9s. additional, will give that individual 25/. 13s. before the passing of the law ; is the Committee to understand that this same individual, whose annual income amounted to 25/. 13s., is now able to obtain an annual income of 35/. 9s., that being an increase of 9 /. 16s. a year ?— In the cases to which the return refers, I must answer, positively, yes ; and also as I have stated what deductions are to be made as respects an inferior class of employers, I beg to remind the Committee that it by no means follows, that a man with a family received 9s. every week, because there were many men under the old law who did not, at certain periods, obtain the scale allowance, but who, being out of employment, were deprived of the allowance from the scale; it was not always that a man, especially with that size of a family, received, during every week, the scale allowance. In some well-managed districts, where there were very a])le, humane and intelligent overseers, I believe that practice did obtain to a very considerable extent, but in others, I must say, that the allowance system was a system of such extreme chicanery and fraud, that the labourer was, under parochial management, which sometimes fell into the hands of the least skilful, the least intelligent, and the least generous occupiers, shut out occasionally from the ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 19 the scale allowance ; but now, instead of being, as formerly, occasionally in the J. P. Kay, Esq. hands of the least generous and least skilful man, the administration is in the *"' °' hands of the most intelligent and the most respectable individuals in the district; ^^ ^^^^^^ ,838. and I have previously stated to the Committee that those cases of direct inter- ference with the interests of the labourers appear to me to be less likely to arise, because the interests of 29 guardians out of 30 are in favour of carrying out the principle, and tiicre is only one who has, or may think he has, an interest adverse to the operation of the general principle. 48q4- I ^'ish to confine this inquiry to the labourers, without any reference to the opinion of the. boards of guardians ; is it you» opinion that the industrious labouring man, of good character, with a wife and four children, can now obtain 35/. 9i-."a year, whereas, before the passing of the law he did not obtain more than 25/. ISs. ?— I have stated that in the cases of intelligent occupiers, from whom those returns are obtained, I believe he can obtain the rate of wages so stated ; and I believe that the income of the labourers, under the scale allowance, in the cases I have described, is also accurately given in the statement I have made, with the further exception, that deductions from that must be made, in the manner I have described. 4895. Taking the case of carters and shepherds, for instance, is their employ- ment constant, or as much so as that of the labourers employed in husbandry ? — I believe there is no class of labourers whatever, throughout Norfolk and Suffolk, that did not obtain, under the old law, allowance from the parish during some part of the year. 4896. Have you not told the Committee that a labourer who had 9s. a week, and who had himself and four children to maintain, was denied any allowance when he was in want? — Yes, under the old system. 4897. Take then this labourer, and suppose that he had employment all the year round, at 9s. a week, and that, with 9s. additional, which he obtains for five weeks in the harvest, gives him 25/. 13 s. of annual income; I wish to know whether this man, now being employed in the manner in which he says he is, under the Poor Law Amendment Act, receives 35/. 9 s. instead of 25/. 13s. which he did before ? — I can do nothing more than I have previously done, state in reply to the question that is put to me, to what extent I consider that return is applicable ; and when I consider it is not applicable, and in reference to the previous part of the question, that relating to the scale upon which labourers were maintained, I must also add, wishing to clear myself from any possibility of misconception, that I do not mean that was the scale in every parish, because the scales were various, but that it was the scale in parishes of extensive districts. 4898. I have understood, from information that you have given to the Committee, that a man with a wife and four children can earn by his labovir 35/. 9s. per annum; I have also understood that a man similarly circumstanced as to family, before the passing of the new law, coidd not eai-n more than 25/. 13s. per annum : is my understanding correct? — I am glad that the question is put to me, because it gives me the opportunity of clearing up a misconception of what my meaning was ; I did not mean to say that a labourer could not earn more than 25/. 13 s. under the old law, and that the same labourer would in all cases earn 35/. 9s. under the new law, but I stated what the scale was in particular instances under the old law, and what the income was in particular instances under the new law ; it is however quite evident that I cannot pretend to put forward such a statement as a means of absolute comparison of the state of the labourers under the new and under the old law, but as a justification of my opinion that the income of the labourer has been improved; because, under the new law, the income is derived from various sources, which were not commonly sources of income under the old law, such as doing work to a more considerable extent, the earnings of the wife, and the earnings of the cliildren, when they are at an age to work. 4899. Are you satisfied that such a labourer as I have described can now obtain 35/. 9s. per annum for his labour? 1 am satisfied that when such a labourer is working for an intelligent farmer, of average capital and skill, he can obtain that income, and I believe the statement represents the income of labourers of that class so situated ; but I have previously stated, and I desire to repeat, that some deduction must be made from that estimate when a labourer is employed by a farmer of less capital and less skill and less intelhgence, 220. c 2 4900. If 20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. p. Kay, Esq. 4C)oo. If this increased income can now be obtained by the labourers, are not ^' "• the labourers perfectly satisfied with the operation of the new law, inasmuch as 16 March i8^8 ^^ gives them increased advantages, which they did not possess under the old law ? — I believe that it is very difficult, amongst any class, especially a class the education of which has not been carefully attended to, when they are informed by individuals of superior intelligence and station, that some vague and inde- finite advantage is to be obtained by an alteration of the existing state of things, not to desire that indefinite change, rather than the position which they at present enjoy ; and I believe that state of feeling among the labourers is not peculiar to the present Jaw, but has been common to every condition of society. I think that one obstacle to the expression of contentment on the part of the labourers with the existing state of things, arises from the attempts that are made to delude them with the prospect of some advantage from a change, and to inflame their passions by misrepresenting the provisions of the present law ; at the same time I am assured by respectable farmers, that a large body of their most intelligent labourers are well contented with the change. 4901. Mr. Scrope.'\ The iU-disposed among the labourers are naturally dis- contented with the change, those who have been driven to industry in order to obtain a livelihood, instead of resorting to the parish ? — I think that wherever there are labourers whose industry and fidelity was impaired by the operation of the previous system (as doubtless there were), that such labourers have not those qualities of mind which would induce them to I'ejoice in the alteration of the system. 4902. Therefore if any discontent to the present system were found to prevail among the labouring class in any district, you would look for it rather among that class which had been demoralized by the previous system ? — -I should look for it amongst them, but I should look for it among others of the labouring class, because it is quite impossible to expect that the labourers should see the remote consequences of the present law, and that they should not be the victims of the misrepresentations that are made to them. 4903. And that natural discontent would be encouraged by the owners of beer-shops and public-houses, among whom the parish receipts are not so lavishly spent now as formerly? — There are interested classes among the middle ranks, and there are individuals who, from motives not affecting their personal interests, but arising out of their general views of society, have indulged in great opposi- tion to the present law, have fomented discontent among the labourers, and have made themselves the active instruments of spreading discontent. Under cir- cumstances of the slightest exhibition of tumultuary feehng, it has been quite apparent that it has been promoted, as far as I have observed, by members of the middle classes. 49C>4. Mr. LiddelL] Do you find in the country that there are no men of character and education opposed to the present law ? — Certainly, there ai'e such men, and I conceive that it can be no objection to the law that it has the oppo- sition of those men, because it would be quite impossible to propose to the consideration of the Committee any single point, whether upon morals or politics, upon which diiferent and adverse opinions are not held. 4905. But to such individuals as I have alluded to, you wish to attribute no other motives than those of a sincere desire for the public benefit, but as you conceive with mistaken views ? — I should be very sorry if the Committee supposed that I wished to imply that those parties were guided by more interested views than myself and those with whom I act ; I oidy wish that the same charity may be extended to us. 4906. Mr. Fielden.] Can any difference of opinion as regards morals or politics lead the labourer to be dissatisfied with a rise of income from 25/. 13s. to 3.5/. 9.S. ? — It may lead the labourer to avoid the expression of his satisfaction ; . it cannot lead the labourer to be dissatisfied with a rise of wages, but it may lead a labourer with a rise from 251. even to 401. to conceal his satisfaction. 4907. Would not the labourers universally give it as their opinion that the new law was working well, if they were satisfied that they now get 35/., whereas before they were getting 25/. ? — That does not follow, in the first instance, because it is quite plain that if the expectation of superior advantage be held out, they may conceal their satisfaction ; and, further, the operation of the law has in its early stages been accompanied with a certain amount of pressure upon the poorer classes ; that nobody attempts to deny ; and it would be impossible to procure ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 21 procure a change in the industrj' and fidelity of the labourers, unless there had J. P. Kay, Esq. been a stimulus of that nature employed ; I think that the remaining effects of a *•• °- certain period of pressure, which I hope is passed, or nearly so, may be among the motives which misrht induce labourers to conceal their satisfaction with the March 1838, condition which they have now reached. 4908. But if any attempts were made to prevail upon the labourers to petition for a repeal of the new law, they being themselves convinced that they get 35/., whereas they got only 25/. before, would not all applications to them to sign petitions be utterly useless and of no avail? — I do not think that they would be, if at the time that those petitions were sought to be signed the laboui'ers were told that some great and new advantage was to be obtained to the labouring classes by the alteration of this law, and if they were led to expect such undefined or ill-defined advantages, I believe the labourers are not in that condition of knowledge which would enable them to distinguish between an illusive promise and one that was based upon a substantial view of society. 4909. Mr. Liddell.] You have stated that those labourers may have dissatis- faction, or may conceal their contentment, one ground being the prospect of some undefined advantages to be obtained by the change of the law, the other being the existence of actual pressure, which may have existed in the application of the new law ; do not you think that a sufiicient gi'ound for dissatisfaction may be found in the existence of actual pressure rather than in the prospect of future advantages "? — Supposing that there was no advantage, and that there was only pressure, of course that would be a sufficient reason, and })robably the only reason for the dissatisfaction ; but I have stated that it is my impression that the pressure is, with the exception of a few cases, to a considerable extent, at an end, and that the exceptions are to be taken as proving the rule of the superior condition on the part of the labourers. 4910. Chairman.] What is the nature of the pressure on the part of the labourers ? — The pressure is of this nature, that whereas labourers were thrown out of employment by the occupier of land, wherever it was in the slightest degree incom'enient to the occupier to continue the payment of regular wages to the labourers, or whenever it was more difficult for him to devise the means of employing labourers more productively, or whenever it was his caprice to discharge his labourers without sufficient reason ; the substitution of more permanent relations between the master and servant cannot but be an arrangement which it requires a certain time to effect, but that during the period when those arrangements are in course of adjustment, there must be individual labourers, who will have to go to the workhouse to obtain subsistence, or who may for a certain period be out of employment, and not in the receipt of wages or out-door relief; and while that state of things continues there must be a certain amount of pressure upon individuals, either from their being in the workhouse, or from their being out of employment out of the workhouse ; that was what I alluded to when I spoke of a period of pressure ; but I conceive that this period of pressure has been succeeded by the substitution of permanent employment out of the workhouse, and the ordinary natural relations between master and servant, for the previous dependence upon the poor-rate. 49 n . Has that pressure been carried so far in any cases that have come under your observation as to produce great distress among the labouring classes ? I do not think that instances of great distress have been by any means numerous ; I would not attempt to deny my belief, though I am not personally acquainted with the particular cases, that there may have been individual cases of great distress, arising from peculiarity in the feelings of individuals and their dispositions, which led them to refuse the acceptance of relief within the workhouse ; but I believe that, if such cases have occurred, they are very much indeed attributable to the gross misrepresentations that have been afloat concerning the condition of the inmates of workhouses, by which the workhouse has been rendered at the time more repulsive to the labourers than it need be. 4912. Has that pressure been felt, do you think, generally by the labourers whom, whether from character or capacity, the farmers would be least disposed to employ ? — In the statements which have been made to me by chairmen of unions and others, I have been assured that the pressure' has been felt amongst persons the employment of whom was not desirable, either because they were persons of extremely inferior skill, or that their characters were suth that the 220. c 3 fanners 22 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. p. Kaij, Esq. farmers had great objection to receive them into their service until some improve- ^- °- ment had occurred. 4913- Have you observed that there has been an improvement in the 16 March 1838, character or habits of those persons? — Nothing is more general than the assur- ance which is received from all quarters of the greatest improvement in the character of individuals of that class, and the improvement of their skill. 4914. Do you think that the amount of employment by the farmers has increased ? — To a very great extent indeed. 4915. Have you ever known the pressure carried so far in individual instances, as to oblige a man to sell his goods and give up his cottage before he went into the workhouse ? — I never knew any single instance of that kind ; the only occurrence that I am aware of connected with the offer of the workhouse to a labourer, is the common practice of turning the key in the door, putting it into the possession of some neighbour or friend, and leaving the house in the charge of that neighbour or friend. 4916. Is the residence of able-bodied labourers with their families in the workhouse of any long duration ? — Commonly transient ; in winter, there are instances of individuals who remain a longer period, it may be two or three months in individual cases ; but the residence is commonly transient, because the occupiers are careful to remove the labourers with their families from the workhouse, unless they are individuals whose employment is not desirable, rather than incur the charge of their maintenance in the workhouse. 4917. And in cases where the residence has been extended so long as three or four months, have you known any instance in which they have been obliged to sell their goods before they went into the workhouse ? — I do not now remember one instance. 4918. Have the Commissioners ever issued an order, obliging persons to sell their goods before they went into the workhouse ? — I am aware of no such order, and the practice in my district has been totally opjiosed to such a fact. '' 4919. If it should be stated that the Commissioners have issued an order, obliging persons to sell the whole of their furniture before they go into the workhouse, is that, as far as your knowledge goes, an absolute perversion of the truth ? — It is. 4920. During the time of the residence within the workhouse, supposing that it should extend to a period of three or four months, are the married persons allowed to see each other during that time ? — When directions have been recently given to masters of workhouses verbally, they are generally these, that upon reasonable occasions there shall be allowed an interview between the man and wife ; but I think that the cases to which I have alluded have not been families of that description ; they have generally been widowers, infirm men and single men ; I do not at this moment remember any case of a family having remained in the workhouse so long, and I think it would not be so, except in the case of some person whose labour was altogether undesirable on account of some great exceptionable qualities in his character. I 4921. Whatever may be the period during which a family may reside in the f workhouse, supposing it to be a week or a short time, would there be any ; difficulty in the husband and wife occasionally seeing each other ? — Certainly not, i in cases of illness or urgency. ) 4922. Are you aware of any instance of an application having been made on the part of the husband or the Avife, saying that they wished to see each other, and that application being refused ?~No ; and I think that it is desirable that the masters of workhouses should understand that such interviews are to be per- mitted at reasonable periods. 4923. You speak confidently that that would not be the practice? — When applied to, I not only have verbally stated to the masters of workhouses that they were to allow such interviews, but I believe I know what the feelings of boards of guardians are where I have not been applied to. 4924. Mr. Boiling.] Have you heard discussions at the boards of guardians upon this subject ? — I do not think that I have heard such discussion, because I think that it is generally understood that such an interview may occur. 4925. Mr. Liddell.'] Have you ever known a case where a husband and wife have been shut up in different workhouses ? — Whenever temporary workhouses have been employed in my district, there always has been a provision for con- taining the married inmates in one workhouse, and they have been always sent to ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 23 to that workhouse if sent at all ; in Norfolk and Suffolk, the workhouses of the j. p. Kay, Esq. unions are now, I believe, all central workhouses, with only three exceptions, ^''^- and in those three cases the married inmates are in one house ; I have great con- fidence that practice has not occurred in my district, and I certainly have no re- '^ ^»^f'' i«38- membrance of any instance. 4g-26. You would not approve of such a separation ?— I think it very unde- sirable. 4927. Mr. Scropc.'] You have been asked as to some supposed discontent ' existing among the labouring classes to the new law ; to whatever extent that may prevail, does it show itself outwardly in incendiary fires to the same extent as the discontent which prevailed under the old system ?— By no means ; we have had scarcely any incendiary fires of late in Norfolk and Suffolk, whereas certain districts of Norfolk had been scenes of numerous outrages of that description a very short period previously to the introduction of the new law. 4()28. And in those same districts no such appearances of discontent manifest themselves at present ?— There have been in Norfolk, as far as I am acquainted, during the past year, only four fires, none of which have been in any respect, upon a minute inquiry I have made, in the slightest degree attributable to the new Poor Law. 4929. Therefore, judging from those facts, you would think that the present system is less likely to make persons discontented, turbulent and dangerous to the public peace than the old system ? — Certainly. 4930. Mr. Liddell.] You consider then that it was the old system which caused those fires ? — I believe that the disagreements which occurred between master and servant, and between the occupiers and the labourers, in parishes where the income of the labourer had to be settled by decisions in vestry from week to week, connected also with the immoral habits which were necessarily promoted by the fact, that GO or 80 labourers might rise in a parish on Monday morning and do no work until the last hour on Saturday night, and go to the pay-table on Saturday and receive their income from the parish, were the sources of those fires which prevailed throughout the country. 4931. Are you not aware that till the year 1830 such fires did not prevail or prevailed to a very small extent ? — I am aware that fires did occur before the year 1830, and in some districts of England extensively ; but I believe that they became a matter of greater pubhc hazard, and that they were more numerous in 1830, and that the disposition to turbulence in the lower classes had reached its climax then. 4932. But as you have said that gross misrepresentations as to this new law have been the main cause of exciting the people, in some instances, to acts of violence now, do you not conceive that such misrepresentations might have led to acts of turbulence then ? — At all events the misrepresentations are much less successful now than they were then ; I believe the people were deluded then as they are now. 4933. Chairman.'] In all the workhouses under your superintendence, is classi- fication insisted upon ? — Certainly, 4g34. That classification separates generally the male from the female inmates of the workhouse ? — Yes. 4c)35. Do you consider such a separation absolutely necessary for the purposes of decency and order ? — I think that if inquiry were made in the workhouses it would be found that when more I'eputable females are there, their evidence alone might be taken on the subject as conclusive ; I have found, in several instances, upon inquiring whether the respectable females in the workhouses preferred that '20 men and 20 women should be in one ward, or that they should, during the transient period of their residence in the workhouse, be in different wards, that they have said that they have preferred the present system, and I think for reasons which must be obvious to the Committee. 493 0. Have any workhouses come under your observation where classification was not observed ? — The workhouses of the incorporations, with scarcely any exception, had no classification of males and females, and in many of them there was no classification whatever. 41)37- What was the effect of non-classification, as far as you know? — Great demoralization. 4938- That took place in the workhouses previously to the introduction of this new system, where no classification was observed? — It did. 4939- And you think that that would be the inevitable effect of abandoning 220. c 4 the 24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. P. Kay, Esq, the System of classification, as it has been estabUshed ? — Certainly ; I find in the **■ °" Hoxne Union workhouse that two entries were made by the chaplain in his book, 16 March i8' 8 ^'^^ ""^ April 5th, and another entry on April 14th, 1 837 : — "April 5th: Visited the ^ ' house, and inspected both wards ; the people in both are quiet and content ; I would remark one fact, which may be interesting to the board, respecting the separation of the husband and wife ; there are at present several married people in the men's ward, and in speaking with them this morning I distinctly asked whether they would not prefer being thus separated than live promiscuously, as under the old system; all, with one exception, answered, "Certainly, sir, this is much the best. '" " April 14th, 1837 : Visited the house; inspected the females' ward — their condition, in general, satisfactory ; the females now express the same opinion, as to the separation, as the men, and as long as they are in a poor- house say they would much rather be separated than live as under the old system ; the children are in school, and engaged in reading, writing and sewing. — A. Cox, chaplain.' ' 4940. Would it be very practicable in a building like the workhouse, where a large number of persons are collected in a comparatively small space, to neglect classification, preserving any attention to decent habits ? — It would, in my opinion, be utterly impossible. 4941. You have spoken of the separation of adult males and females, and you have said that your instruction to the masters of workhouses is, that, at reasonable times they should be allowed to see each other ; will you be so good as to state what is the amount of separation which takes place between mothers and children ?— The mothers see the girls at breakfast, din- ner and supper, the fathers see the boys at breakfast, dinner and supper, of whatever age, in every day ; whenever a parent wishes to see his child, if appli- cation is made at reasonable hours, under circumstances that do not interfere with the management of the house, I do not think that objections are made, except on the score of trouble ; occasionally on account of pre-engagement, but no objection is systematically made ; and children under two years of age always are with their mothers during the night, and infants are, in the workhouses of Norfolk and Suffolk, never separated from their mothers except sometimes when there are few able-bodied women in the house, and it is necessary to employ a mother, and then the child is given for a time to the charge of another person. 4942. And returned to the mother at the end of her occupation ?^Certainly. 4943. In case of illness, if any child belonging to any parent in the work- house were ill, would there be the slightest difficulty in the parent being con- stantly with it ? — Not the slightest ; when the children are ill, if there be any thing contagious in the disorder, they are removed to the sick-ward ; but if the mother expressed a wish to be the nurse of the child, and there were no objection as to her own employment, and especially if the disease were serious, she would of course be permitted to be with the child. 4944. Mr. Liddell.'] Then, in all cases which have come under your expe- rience, whenever a child has been seized with illness, the mother has been per- mitted to attend it ? — If any governor of the workhouse were to exercise his discretion to prevent it, he would be proceeding against the wishes of the board of guardians, and against my own ; I cannot be responsible to the Committee for any thing other than the general rule. 4945. Chairman.'] You believe, in saying that, that you did express not only your own opinions, but the opinions of the boards of guardians and the Poor Law Commissioners ? — Certainly ; it is difficult for me to assure the Committee that in every instance instructions have been given verbally from myself, because masters have been appointed under circumstances, in connexion with intel- ligent individuals in the board of guardians, who fully understood the law, which has obviated the necessity of positive verbal instructions from myself ; and I wish to make that explanation, because in particular instances I certainly have omitted to make a communication to particular individuals on that subject. 4946. Mr. Baines.] Were you, when in Manchester, acquainted with the management of that workhouse ? — I was not. 4947. With any workhouses in that neighbourhood were you acquainted r — Not so as to enable me to state to the Committee, with satisfaction to myself, the comparative condition of those houses. 4948. Mr. Milen.] In case county schools were formed, would not a difficulty exist, supposing the children and the father and mother were separated, in allowing ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 2.5 allowing that intercourse which now exists when they are under the same j. p. Kay, Esq. roof? — I propose those county schools principally, if not solely, for the "• i^- education of children deprived of their parents. ~ 4949. Chah-man.'] And in particular instances, if it were necessary, a regu- ' aici 1 3 . lation might be made with a view to the parents seeing their children? — Certainly. 4950. Mr. Fielden.'] Do the 120 families of which you have given in an estimate, reside in Norfolk or Suftblk 1 — They reside in various parts of both counties ; the returns being obtained by sending a circular which was given generally by the chairman or vice-chairman of the union into the hands of some respectable farmer in his union, so that I endeavoured to obtain a complete estimate of the income of labourers throughout the whole counties and not in any particular district specially ; and I thought that the average would be more fair if so obtained, than if obtained from any particular district. 4951. Are they embraced in the return which you put in the other day ? — The particular enumeration of each family is not ; and I should state that the circular which I issued contained a clause assuring the person that his name would not be mentioned in the return ; it would be a matter of difKculty to obtain any return excepting ujxjn those terms. 4952. Do you think that the return is a fair statement of the condition of the labourers in the different parts of Norfolk and Suffolk under your superintendence ?— I think it is a fair statement of the condition of labourers in the employment of intelligent individuals who keep books ; I mean a superior class of farmers. 49.53. A class of farmers who have great influence in regulating the rate of wages ? — I do not think that any farmers have influence in regulating the rate of wages ; I think that the rate of wages regulates itself. 49.54. But would not the example of those intelligent farmers be followed by tbe less intelligent ? — I do not think that that example would be altogether con- clusive ; I think that the less intelligent fai'mers necessarily will adopt a some- what different rule from the more intelligent, because they have less skill and less capital and less profit. 4955- What proportion do you suppose the less intelligent, of whom you are speaking, bear to those who are more intelhgent? — Though I consider the question of importance, as having regard to the condition of the poorer classes throughout Norfolk and Suftblk, I am unable to give so accurate an answer to the question as I could desire, or to form any estimate which it would be useful to state. 4956. But in point of fact, can the Committee draw any inference as to the rate of wages which prevails in consequence of the statements which you have made ? —They can draw an inference with respect to the class of intelligent far- mers, if they cannot draw any inference with respect to the class of smaller fiu-mers ; they may possibly draw an inference in this way, that making a certain deduction, which their knowledge of agricultural affau's may enable them to do, fi'om the income derived from the more intelhgent farmers, they may ascertain pretty nearly what is the income among the less intelligent farmers. 4957. Are not the farmers in Norfolk what are generally called large farmers, that is, occujjying large tracts of land ? — In certain districts the farms are nearly all of that description ; in other districts the land is heavy land, the farms are smaller ; and I think that it will be generally found that what are called the light land districts contain the more intelligent and skilful farmers, and among the heavy land districts there are fewer farmers of intelligence and skill. 4958. Is it the farmers upon the light lands that have made those returns, or tlve farmers upon the heavy lands?— The returns are from all districts, both from the farmers upon the light lands and upon the heavy lands. 4959- Then may not the Committee draw a fair inference, that that is nearly as correct a statement as can be obtained, as regards the annual income ? — As regards the annual income of labourers employed by intelligent farmers, because in both cases there will be exceptions to the rule ; in the light land district there will be farmers of less skill and less capital, and in the heavy land districts there will be also exceptions. 4960. But would the Committee be justified in drawing the conclusion, if a farmer appeared here and did not subscribe to this scale o"f wages, that he was not an intelligent person ?— It would be a very invidious conclusion, because he --0- D might 26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. p. Kay, Esq, might be excepted from the operation of a general rule, by a multitude of causes M. D. that it is impossible to define ; and I am glad that the question gives me an opportunity of freeing myself from the misconception that I had any, the shghtest, 16 March 1838. desire to say that individuals who may not agree in that statement are inferior in skill or intelHgence. 4961. But that, I understand, you wish the Committee to take for granted, is a statement coming from inteUigent farmers, and that statement may be relied upon as far as regards that class of intelligent persons? — It may be relied upon, I believe, as regards that class of persons, inasmuch as it is obtained from a great number of such persons in different parts of the country, and refers to a great number of labourers in their employment ; but that there cannot be pro- duced in this Committee some particular person who gives a smaller amount of income to his labourers, though a person of great skill and intelligence, I am not prepared to say ; indeed, it is evident upon the face of the facts, that it must be so, inasmuch as that is the average, reducing the highest income and increasing the lowest ; and amongst those very returns that have been afforded to me, there must be returns showing a lower income than the average, as well as returns affording a higher income than the average. 4y62. You have spoken of task -work ; has the price of task-work advanced among those intelligent farmers ? — I really find great difiiculty in answering that question ; I must say that I do not know ; but I do know tliis, that the amount of task-work has increased. 4963. Then you do not know whether the wages paid for task-work are lower or higher than they were before the new Poor Law ? — I should not expect much difference on this ground ; the task-work was comparatively less resorted to under the old law than under the new ; it was a kind of work avoided, where the scale allowance was in existence to a very considerable extent, and has in those cases been resorted to since the operation of the law, forming one of the important means by which the income of the labourer is increased where the scale has been abandoned. 4964. Is the statement you have made of the annual income of those labourers derived in any degree from task-work? — To a very considerable extent. 4965. Do you know whether the labourers employed at task-work are more industrious now than the labourers formerly employed at task-work were ? — I believe the instances in which men were much employed at task-work before, occurred among farmers, who, under the pecubar circumstances of their par- ticular parish, or of their particular occupation, did not resort to the making up of wages, or the supply of income to the labourers, by scale allowance, and that in those cases they had the advantage of employing probably the most indus- trious and faithful men. I have no doubt that, if the task-work had been resorted to as a mode of employment under the old system, it would have been accompanied with greater industry and fidelity on the part of the labourers in the particular cases. 4966. Was there not the same inducement to be industrious and diligent under the old law, when employed in task-work, as there is now ? — Not absolutely, except in certain cases of parishes, where the labourers were few and the scale had not been resorted to ; but when the labourers were not so situated they were constantly under this temptation, that when work was not agreeable they could resort to the scale of allowance by an infraction of their duty to their masters in some way or other, and rendering it undesirable to them to retain them in their employment, and this was one of the sources of disobedience, and occasioned a derangement of the relation between the master and servant. 4967. But when the scale allowance, as you have already stated, was only Is. \i(l. per week, was not there the sti-ongest inducement that a person should endeavour to make up his wages to a larger amount ? — I stated that of a particular district, and I also stated that I did not want to put that forward as universal. I stated concerning another scale which was in use in the neighbouring district, that when the labourers were in employment they received 9s. a week, and that the scale was 9s. a week for a man with four children ; if the scale had universally been Is. 1 .J d. per head when a labourer was out of employment, I think it would have had that effect to a considerable extent, especially with men who had large families, and whose necessities were greater ; but it could not have secured either the advantages to the labourer which are secured by the present system, ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 27 system, or by uniting the interests of the master and servant, promoted the j. p. Kay, Esq. tendency to create permanency of cmplo3Tnent. ^•"' 4968. Are you quite certain that the rate paid for task-work generally has not jg ^ ^^^ ^g g been lower since the new law? — I entertain the utmost possible confidence that it has not, and I may say that I am certain that it has not ; but I have no doubt that if some of the chairmen of unions from Norfolk and Suflblk were examined before this Committee, who have an intimate knowledge of the existing state of wages in any particular district, their information on that subject would be more valuable than any that I can myself furnish to the Committee. 4969. But supposing the rate of task-work to have been reduced, would not that induce an honest industrious man, who had not been a pauper, and who did not wish to be a pauper, to increase his exertions in order to avoid falHng into that state of pauperism which you have described ? — I believe that when the labourers are dependent simply upon their own exertions, if the rate of the wages of labour be reduced by any circumstances whatsoever, the labourers would be stimulated to attempt to maintain their incomes by increased exertions. 4970. May not that account for the increased industry which you have observed among some part of the labouring classes ? — The question supposes the circum- stance which I have already stated I have the greatest confidence does not exist, and therefore my answer must be consistent with my belief that no such circmii- stance exists, in order to account for the existing state of things. 4971. Were there not a great number of individuals who had not been dependent upon the parish before the new Poor Law passed, in those districts ? — I shall be glad to give the Committee the means of ascertaining how many the number must have been, by referring to documents in my possession concerning theWoodbridge Union in Suffolk, previously to tlie introduction of the law ; certain most intelligent and able magistrates of the Colneis and Carlford Hundreds, which were tlien incorporated hundreds, applied to the Poor Law Commissioners, presenting a memorial, and stating their extreme anxiety concerning the condition of the district in which they acted ; and one of the ablest and most intelligent of that body, Mr. Newton Shawe, whose name I have already men- tioned to the Couuuittee, prepared a very accurate and minute analysis of the state of reUef in that district ; I find, upon reference to that document, that the following was the state of things in the Colneis and Carlford Hundreds, which now form part of the Woodbridge Union, at the period referred to : In the year ending November 1834, there were 312 able-bodied labourers occasionally in work, but reUeved when out of work, who had received in that year 718/. 85. bid.; there were 558 able-bodied labourers out of work, who had been paid 2,119/. lis. G|cZ. ; there were 80 able-bodied labourers who were paid for work 267/. 13s. 5c/.; there were 129 infirm persons, wholly or partially employed, who were paid 84S/. 15s. \Qd.; there were 143 infirm persons entirely disabled, who had been paid 1,172/. 4s. Qd.; there were 200 sick persons relieved at a cost of 302/. 7s. 3|d ; there were 247 widows, with and without children, relieved with 1,G87/. 19s. Sd.; there were 136 single women reheved, with and without children, who received 407/. 2s. 5^". ; there were a number of persons for whom rent was paid, 57, at an expense of 110/. 17s. 2,d. : and then the Committee, in order to judge, would probably not object to receive an account of the state of the same district in the year ending June 30th, 1837; in that year 13 able-bodied labourers in work had received, in occasional relief, a sum amounting to 16/. 5s. 9f c/. ; 14 able-bodied labourers out of work had received 7/. 18s. 8d. ; no able-bodied labourers have been relieved for work done. The number of infirm persons, wholly or partially employed, who received rehef was 100, who received 430/, 15s. O^d. ; the number of infirm persons who had been entirely disabled was 152, who received 1,100/. 4s. l|f/. ; the number of sick relieved was 215, who received 421/. 13s. llfc^. ; the number of ■widows, with and without children, 231, who received 1,418/. 12 s. 4J(/; the number of single women, with and without children, 27, who received 68/. \3s.G\d.; the number of persons for whom rent or rates were paid was none ; the number of orphan and bastard children, and children of widows who were born before the passing of the Poor Law Amendment Act, 53, at a cost of 161/. 3s. 6 c/.; showing that in that district there were at that time upwards of 900 able-bodied men who had been relieved out of the poor-rates, either in the way of making up wages, which was one of the items, or for being totally unemployed, m the two hundreds, containing ten thousand inhabitants, in the •220. D 2 year 28 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. P. Kay, Esq. ygjjj. ending November 1834 ; and in the year ending November 1837 only 27 ___i^^__ such persons had received such relief. iG March iS-^?. [The Witness delivered in the same. — Vide Appendix (A.)] 4972. Chairman.'] Twenty-seven as compared with 900? — Yes. 4973. How was the relief given to those able-bodied labourers who were not employed ? — It was given upon some scale in the district. 4974. In money? — Yes. 4975. So much money at the end of the week ? — Yes. 4976. Without any work ? — There might be a particular parish which resorted to the labour test, and that consisted of gravel-pits. Employment on the roads would have to be added to that estimate, I believe, if the surveyor's books were examined, in order to understand how much extra labour was put upon the roads. 4977. How do you believe that those 900 able-bodied who were relieved in the year that you have spoken of are now disposed of? — I can quote to the Com- mittee the opinion of Mr. Shawe. Mr. Shawe says, in a letter addressed to me at the close of the late snow-storm, adverting to the condition of the labourers during that storm, " Out-door relief being withdrawn, the farmers have more money to apply to the payment of wages ; they know that the maintenance of a man and his family in the workhouse costs them more than the wages of labour, and produces them no return whatever ; wliile on the other hand the labourer uses every exertion to procure employment to avoid going to the workhouse. Thus the interests of both parties combine in the one purpose of keeping the man and his family out of the house ; and the result has been, that more labourers have been kept in employment during the last five weeks past, than have ever been employed before under similar circumstances. I scarcely know an instance, since the formation of our union, of a well-conducted industrious labourer being compelled to accept the workhouse. One such case was reported to me last week, and I gave the man a job of work ; but I tind on trial that he is not worth his wages. I have heard labourers themselves say, that the late system of giving out-door relief to able-bodied men was a great injustice to an industrious labourer, and they added, as their reason for that opinion, that it sent out a man to work against them with a parish premium upon his back, and he could afford to work for less money than they could." I had asked Mr. Shawe to state what in his opinion would have been the effects of the administration of out-door relief to able-bodied labourers in his union during the snow-storm on employment, and on the moral and domestic comforts of the labourers. 4978. Does Mr. Shav;e reside in the district? — He does ; he states " Numbers of men would have been thrown out of employment immediately ; the farmers would never have consented to pay wages and rate too ; if A. had turned off his labourers, and they had been put upon parish pay, B. must have done the same in self-defence, or he would have been paying his own labourers' wages, and part of A.'s ; it is my own impression that the farmers and the best labourers in this union would be opposed to re-establishing the out-relief system to able-bodied labourers ; both parties appear to know the injuries they have sustained by it ; there may be, and no doubt are, cases of partial hardship ; no system can guard against every case ; I believe the good derived from the present plan to preponde- rate far over the evil ; and this is all we are permitted to attain to." 4979. Of those 900 persons, do you believe them to be principally employed in that district ? — 1 believe, from that district particularly, there has been pro- bably less removal of famihes, by emigration or otherwise, than probably from other districts ; I believe that the labourers, generally, are employed within the district. 4980. You have stated, that if you had taken into account the labourers em-^ ployed upon the parish highways, you would have had to add them to the 900 whom you previously enumerated ? — I believe that is the fact, because I find, upon examining the books of the surveyors throughout the country, a very large pro- portion of extra work was done upon the roads at that time, and it does not appear to me, from examining these documents, that that is included. 498 1 . Mr. Scrope. ] You do not think that any extra work is done now upon the roads, in order to employ those men ? — I have never heard, but in two districts, that any attempt has been made to put an extra number in employment upon the roads, and when I heard of it I wrote to Mr. Sloawe, and informed him that if that ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. Cl^'^SS.) 29 that was resorted to it would be my duty to include that as relief given to the J- P- ^"v, E*^. men ; and he informed me, at the time, that the plan Avas abandoned. "'"' 4082. Chairman.'] What is the general distance which the inhabitants of .-. , , , *i .111 i o Ti • ID March 1838. parishes have to go to the place where the board meets ? — It vanes con- siderably. 40 S3. What is the greatest distance as far as you remember ? — I think there \ ■ may be instances in which the distance of 12 miles has to be travelled, but this radius of 12 miles occurs only once or twice in a particular direction, under circumstances, and I remember that it does occur in one of the old incor- porations, where the workhouse is exactly in the same situation, and where one parish, which is 12 miles distant from the workhouse, was at that distance from the old workhouse of the incorporation. 4984. Have you foimd any difficulty in arranging unions in Norfolk and Suffolk ? — Great difficulty on various accounts, but principally on this account, the interl'erence of the old incorporations, the situations of their workhouses, and the interference of the incorporations with one another when the country had to be mapped out into unions occasioned embarrassment ; in some par- ticuliu' instances, certain incorporations which were better managed, to the nupiber of four or five, have not been dissolved, and no strenuous attempt has been made by me to dissolve them, because there was not the same necessity for the effort, and such efforts are attended with considerable irritation, and therefore I thought it expedient that the rules and regulations of the Commis- sioners should be issued to the acting guardians ; but, in fact, they have not been dissolved, though they have adopted all the provisions of the law, and that has interfered veiy much with the arrangement of the unions, particularly in Norfolk, and has occasioned at least one additional workhouse to be built in that district. 4985. If those unions were now dissolved, should you think it desirable to make another arrangement ? — In that particular district I think it would not be possible to make a different arrangement; the plans are settled, and must remain, though the inconvenience has been in those cases the increase in the expense of building workhouses ; but in other cases where, from somewhat similar causes, but chiefly from the interference of the boundaries of incorporations, parishes have not been conveniently located, I have a strong desire that parishes should be attached to unions to which they are not attached, and into which it is found impossible with the consent of the guardians to introduce them. 49 86. Would you think it desirable to have the power to alter the size of unions from time to time, as may be found expedient '? — Certainly ; I hope that those inconveniences exist in only two or three exceptional cases, but those are always unpleasant. 4987. What is now necessary before you can alter the unions ? — It is neces- sary, first of all, to obtain the consent of two-thirds of the guardians of the union to which the parish to be disunited belongs, and then, secondly, to obtain the consent of two-thirds of the guardians of the union to which the parish is proposed to be united, both which circumstances are matters of great difficulty ; there are a variety of feelings which interfere with a proper consideration of such a subject, and I do not see that there are any material difficulties in the way of confining that power to the Commissioners, which could only be exer- cised for the public good, and could not be exercised for any sinister purpose. 49S8. Mr. iicrope.'\ Upon an understanding that they should equitably adjust the interests of the parties? — Of course the interests of the parties would have to be equitably adjusted, inasmuch as the share of the parish disunited would have to be calculated, and afterwards its share in the new union would have to be calculated, and the matter adjusted. 4989. ChairmanP^ Do you think there would be any difficulty in making that adjustment practically ? — I think not ; I think the parish which undei-w-ent the change must make some compensation for the advantage obtained, but I think it would be very easy, by an assemblage of the parties interested, to settle it so as to consult the interests of all. 4990. Would you propose, in every case where a parish was to be annexed to a new union, that that should take place without the consent of the parish ? — I think that if any parties had to be consulted, it should be the parish, because there ought certainly to be an advantage gained by that parish. 4991 • Mr. &croTpe?[ That consent is not necessaiy in the formation of unions, 220. D 3 and. 30 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. p. Kay, Esq. and can it be right, on principle, that that should be necessary in an alteration? w. D. — I think that there can be so few motives proposed by the most suspicious why the Commissioners should improperly exercise that power, that it would not be 16 March 1838, necessaiy to have the consent of the parish. 4992. Chairvian.'] Have you any statement to make with regard to savings banks in your district ?^ — I have not been able to make particular inquiries on that subject ; I have only been able to obtain a return from the National Debt Office, which I put into the possession of the Committee. 4993. Do you know anything of the operation of the benefit societies or the friendly societies in your district ? — I conceive that any material increase in those societies must be the result of time ; it supposes a larger measure of forethought and providence among the labourers, which I think it is rather sanguine to expect at so early a period. 4994. Mr. Scrope.'\ Do you not think that the proper selection of the work- house masters and relieving officers is an essential pivot upon which the benefit of the system turns? — Yes, some of the greatest disappointments that we have ever met with have arisen from the character of the individuals selected, and we have suffered considerable inconvenience from that circumstance. 49i)5. Is it not the case frequently in the selection of those officers that^ a certain amountof partiality and of local prejudice prevails rather than a conviction of the superiority of the candidate chosen over the others ? — Certainly that does prevail to a certain extent. 4996. Do you not consider that it is of the very first importance, as the whole svstem turns upon the excellence of those officers, to obtain the best that can be obtained ? — I do think, as the law becomes more settled, and as the com- missioners and boards of guardians act by degrees with perfect unison of motives and intentions on general subjects, that the power which the Commissioners have of dismissing officers will be exercised probably more freely than it has hitherto been. Out of respect to the feelings of different boards of guardians, the number of officers disinissed at the discretion of the Poor Law Commis- sioners has been exceedingly few, probably fewer than the service might require, chiefly out of regard to that moderation that it is desirable to exhibit when every body is new to the administration of a new law. 4997. Do you think, with respect to the management of the workhouses, that there is sufficient security at present of their being such as we should desire to see them, and against the recurrence of abuses ? — I think that the inspection of the visiting committees at present is very active, and individual guardians make frequent visits to the workhouses in the great majority of tlie unions, and the Assistant-commissioner frequently visits ; and I think that the inspection of the workhouses is a matter of so much importance, that the arrangements made for rendering it constant and in every respect efficient ought to be open to every improvement that can be suggested. 4998. Are those arrangements imdergoing a course of improvement at pre- sent ? — At the present moment, I confess, that I conceive the state of the work- houses is very satisfactory ; all I apprehend is a diminution of the vigilance of the bodies intrusted with that inspection ; and the Assistant Poor Law Commis- sioner having a very large district, cannot personally, perhaps, execute the whole amount of duty that it would be desirable should be performed. 4999. Are the workhouses in your district open to the inspection of a stranger, or any respectable resident, and has he an opportunity of examining the paupers as to their condition and treatment, and I'ecording the results of his inquiries ? — Individuals are always permitted to visit the workhouse in every union, if they obtain a note from the guardian of any parish, and that regulation is not in every union required ; in some unions, any individual presenting himself to the workhouse is permitted to visit it, unless it be extremely inconvenient, and interfere with the order and discipline of the house ; and books are kept in many workhouses in which the visitors record their impressions concerning the discipUne and the treatment of the inmates. Mr. Chadwick presented a Return of the Number of Paupers relieved during the years ended Christmas 1836 and Christmas 1837, together with the Amount expended for the Relief of the Poor during the same period. — [Fide Appendix (B).] ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. CI 838.) 31 APPENDIX. Appendix (A.) COLNEIS AND CARLFORD HUNDREDS. TABLE showing the Number of each Class relieved, and the Amount of Relief giren to each Class, in the CoiNEis and Cablfobd Hundreds, in the Years ending respectively November 1834 and June 1837. Number of able- bodied L.abourers in work, occasionally relieved. Amount paid as Relief. Number of able-bo- died Labourers out of work. Amount paid as Relief. Number of able-bo- died Labourers for work. Amount paid aa Kelisf. Number of Infirm Persons, wholly or partially employed. Amount paid as Relief. Number of Infirm Persons entirely dis- abled. 1 Amount paid as Relief. Year ending 312 13 £. s. d. 718 8 5} 16 S 9J 558 14 £. s. tl. 2,119 11 65 7 18 8 80 £. s. d. 267 13 5 129 ino £. s. J. 848 15 10 430 15 -J 143 tl52 £. 5. d. November 1834 30 June 1837- 1,172 4 G 1,100 4 15 ' k o il Amount of Relief. Number of Widows, with and without Children. Amount of Relief. Nxmiber of Single ■Women, with and without Cliildren. Amount of Relief. Number of Persons for whom Rent or Rates are paid. Amount paid as Relief. Orphan and Bastard Children, and Chil- dren of ■Widows re- married before, &c. Amount paid as Relief. Year ending 200 215 £. s. d. 302 7 3 J 421 13 111 247 231 £. s. d. 1,687 19 8 1,418 12 4i 136 27 £. J. d. 407 2 5 G3 13 6i 57 £. s. d. 110 17 2 53 £. J. d. November 1834 30 June 1837- 161 3 6 f Including eight Lunatics and Idiots, the amount of relief to whom is £. 79 1 s. 8 J d. Appendix (B.) NUMBER of Paupers relieved, with the Amount of Money expended for the Relief and Maintenance of the Poor in the following Unions, during the Quarters ended Christmas 1836 and Christmas 1837 respectively. UNIONS. BEDFORD : Leighton Buzzard Woburn - BERKS; A.biugdon Faringdon Hungerford Newbury Reading Wantage Windsor 22D. Number of Paupers relieved during the Quarters ended Christmas 1836. In- door. 82 105 274 197 277 190 286 222 238 Out- door. 1,009 797 947 851 1,078 1,533 643 1,419 657 Total. 1,091 902 1,221 1,048 1,355 1,723 929 1,641 695 Christmas 1837. In- door. 99 140 292 230 246 219 280 277 278 Out- door. 851 858 1,161 855 1,391 1,378 568 1,269 688 Total. 950 998 1,453 1,085 1,637 1,697 848 1,546 966 D4 Expended for the Relief, &c. of the Poor during the Quarters ended Christmas 1836. In- door. £. 72 147 229 245 275 183 421 203 415 Out- Estab- door. lishment. £. £. 820 844 584 362 983 371 785 547 1,186 517 1,440 273 567 299 1,216 421 636 343 Total. £. 1,7.36 1,093 1,583 1,577 1,978 1,696 1,287 1,840 1,294 Christmas 1837. In- door. £. 137 140 294 264 310 244 371 288 466 Out- Estab- door. lishment. £. £. 676 770 584 473 1,054 486 836 337 1,238 350 1,416 291 497 263 1,269 339 489 385 Total. £. 1,583 1,197 1,834 1,437 1,898 1,951 1,131 1,896 1,340 (contin'ued.') 32 API'ENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE Appendix (B.) — Number of Paupers rehcved. with the Amount of Money expendet for the Relief and Maintenance of the Poor, &c continued. Number of Paupe rs relieved during the Quarters ended Expended for the Relief, &c. of the Poor during the Quarters ended . UNIONS.. Christmas 1836. Christmas 1837. Christmas 1836. Christmas 1837. ^ In- Out- Total. In- Out- Total. In. Out- Estab. Total. In- Out. Estab- Total. door. dour. door. door. door. door. lishraent. door. door. Hshment. BUCKS: £. £. f. £. £. £. £. £. Eton . - - 263 713 976 257 703 960 370 599 764 1,723 420 663 421 1,404 TV'inslow 83 811 894 93 749 842 87 642 359 1,088 172 606 130 908 ■Wjcomb 350 3,608 3,958 428 4,080 4,508 486 2,398 674 3,557 664 2,551 377 3,492 CAMBRroCE : Cambridge 181 645 826 246 645 891 386 475 367 1,228 445 556 355 1,356 Chesterton . 1,397 1,397 85 1,143 1,228 . 1,488 140 1,628 113 1,389 330 1,832 Ely - - - 160 1,719 1,879 189 1,214 1,403 209 1,151 376 1,736 281 865 298 1,444 Whittlesey - 77 387 464 95 271 366 76 200 52 328 106 193 108 406 DEVON: Axminster 131 2,147 2,278 190 2,263 2,453 165 1,1.33 401 1,699 274 1,260 413 1,947 Barnstaple . 2,306 2,306 163 1,979 2,132 . 2,010 136 2,146 124 1,755 330 2,209 BIdeford 119 1,-325 1,444 127 1,247 1,374 108 883 133 1,124 145 912 133 1,190 Crediton 67 2,244 2,301 100 2,250 2,350 68 1,915 274 2,257 164 2,030 170 2,364 Kingsbridge - . 2,364 2,364 117 2,368 2,485 . 1,998 242 2,240 157 1,829 172 2,158 Tiverton 166 3,115 3,281 180 3,936 4,115 190 2,718 249 3,157 205 2,806 197 3,207 Torrington - 1,861 1,861 88 1,584 1,672 - 1,372 13 1,386 134 1,173 177 1,484 DORSET: Cerne - _ 762 762 91 442 533 - 534 11 645 132 323 173 628 Shaltesbury - 100 1,235 1,335 135 1,233 ■1,368 128 912 186 1,226 191 930 244 1,365 ESSEX: Chelmsford 326 2,719 3,045 319 2,747 3,066 250 '2,234 567 3,051 452 2,306 530 3,288 Colchester 182 1,310 1,492 265 903 1,168 317 1,109 257 1,683 374 888 481 1,743 Halsted - 146 1,067 1,213 204 2,037 2,241 216 1,682 457 2,256 166 1,500 340 2,006 Lexden Winstrco 296 1,671 1,967 273 1,520 1,793 321 1,306 160 1,787 239 1,.366 625 2,130 Maldon ... 162 1,681 1,843 239 1,625 1,864 291 1,196 134 1,621 454 1,040 241 1,741 Orsett ... 167 694 861 129 786 915 301 426 155 882 182 543 229 954 Kochford 231 354 585 222 275 497 357 529 375 1,261 369 464 • 698 1,531 Komford 325 1,537 1,862 459 1,319 1,778 467 867 907 2,241 627 885 391 1,903 Saffron M^alden 209 2,020 2,229 122 2,031 2,153 160 1,763 330 2,253 101 1,874 551 2,526 leudring 306 2,642 2,948 319 1,687 2,006 353 1,105 179 1,637 398 1,110 278 1,786 GLOUCESTER : Cheltenham 162 710 872 230 1,004 1,284 252 572 379 1,203 382 700 349 1,431 Clifton - 422 2,490 2,912 450 2,099 2,549 813 1,767 1,145 3,725 791 1,961 1,686 4,338 Nen-ent . . - 76 673 748 63 681 744 150 450 233 833 54 404 150 668 Tewkesbury 128 681 809 148 862 1,010 200 501 326 1,026 198 555 284 1,037 "Westbury-on-Severa 70 521 691 70 608 678 74 374 134 682 74 384 200 658 HERTFORD : St. Alban's 220 475 695 252 677 929 356 363 248 967 394 310 244 948 B.-unet ... 98 682 780 149 764 913 172 448 222 842 217 528 600 1,245 Buntingford 75 457 532 95 452 547 92 377 106 676 98 389 312 799 Hitchin - 223 1,229 1,452 266 1,353 1,619 249 1,090 339 1,678 439 1,183 536 2,158 Watford - 120 691 811 160 658 818 246 504 154 904 261 504 S81 1,346 VVelvvyn - 26 50 76 39 96 135 53 41 101 196 80 60 82 222 HUNTINGDON : Huntingdon . 163 1,842 2,005 139 1,786 1,925 283 1,266 229 1,778 187 1,346 778 2,3 U St. Ives . . - 68 1,343 ),41I 85 1,294 1,379 97 1,186 68 1,351 148 1,235 394 1,777 KENT: Ashford, East - 124 926 1,0.')0 175 840 1,015 152 812 613 1,577 235 763 252 1,250 Ashford, West - 159 768 927 236 874 1,110 183 607 671 1,461 228 615 539 1,382 Bleau - 121 710 831 HI 715 826 124 609 329 1,062 134 652 211 997 Bromley 185 328 513 180 324 504 223 499 344 1,066 268 545 252 1,065 Cranbrook 299 1,233 1,532 363 1,400 1,763 450 686 284 1,420 497 762 261 1,520 Eastry ... 365 964 1,329 362 898 1,200 453 714 637 1,704 475 790 507 1,772 Favershara 200 1,147 1,347 263 1,031 1,294 210 917 82 1.209 274 831 306 1,411 Graveecnd and Milton 142 376 618 156 257 413 200 238 104 548 256 189 150 696 Mailing - . - 214 1,384 1,598 296 1,412 1,707 237 1,221 364 1,822 296 1,099 250 1,645 Wilton ... 179 664 743 207 492 099 305 517 218 1,040 274 476 211 961 Romney Marsh 1)4 284 398 133 291 424 167 241 129 537 199 280 282 761 Shej)pey^- 170 453 623 131 438 569 247 360 104 711 202 364 216 781 Tentenlcn 230 1,103 1,333 328 1,083 1,411 254 733 ^850 1,837 480 849 433 1,762 Tonbridge 285 2,607 2,792 410 2,029 2,439 272 1,038 370 1,680 399 1,160 344 1,893 LANCASTER: Ulverstonc 270 1,312 1,582 242 1,333 1,575 552 624 203 1,279 326 898 249 1,473 LEICESTER: Ashby-dc-la-Zouch - 127 770 897 172 1,041 1,213 157 699 221 1,077 1.59 910 241 1,310 Hinckley 84 945 1,029 110 1,344 1,454 108 567 125 790 164 737 249 1,150 L^ieester 146 1,8.35 1,980 509 2,384 2,893 348 1,401 50 1,799 902 1,814 446 .3,161 Market Hosworth . 924 924 65 949 1,014 . 949 32 981 88 858 282 1,228 Market Harboro' . 1,332 1,332 58 1,149 1,207 _ 1,506 215 1,721 91 1,357 269 1,717 Mcltaa Alowbray C3 y57 1,020 155 610 765 68 951 226 1,245 186 646 670 1,502 ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 33 ApiMndis (B. ) — NuMEEK of Paupeks relieved, with the Amount of Money expended for the Relief and Maintenance of the Poor, &c. — continued. Number of Paupers relieved during the Quarter ended Expended for the Relief, &c. of the Poor during the Quarters ended UNIONS. Christmas 1836. Christmas 1837. Christmas 1836. Christmas 1837. In- Out. Total. In- Out- Total. In. Out- Estab- Total. In- Out- Estab- Total. door. door. door. door. door. door. ishment.' door. door. lishment. LINCOLN: £. £. £. f. £. £. £. £. Boston - - - - 1,204 1,204 272 1,349 1,621 . 460 133 693 440 1,298 704 2,442 Holbiiach 168 660 1,028 152 846 998 244 595 297 1,136 261 620 424 1,293 Spalding 150 685 835 180 318 698 231 557 129 917 196 466 566 1,238 MIDDLESEX : * Brentford 339 1,027 1.386 458 1,133 1,.691 626 858 396 1,880 619 940 478 2,037 George, St. in Ea^t - 857 1,434 2,291 706 1,712 2,418 1,220 934 403 2,567 929 1,356 419 2,704 Ilolboru - - - 740 849 1,589 845 972 1,817 924 458 509 1,891 642 417 446 1,705 St:nnes - - - 171 566 737 168 790 958 472 440 459 1,371 300 567 422 1,289 .Strand - - - efli 302 963 674 692 1,366 978 292 887 2,157 1,069 389 950 2,408 Uxbridge 187 656 843 210 693 903 238 410 247 695 337 426 891 1,654 MONMOUTH : Chepstow 80 660 740 87 766 853 151 431 107 689 114 685 151 930 NORFOLK: Avishara 164 2,077 2,241 160 1,659 1,819 96 1,745 611 2,452 1.36 1,590 626 2,252 Biofield - . 1,373 1,373 131 994 1,125 . 919 144 1,063 150 647 295 1,092 Depwade 295 2,160 2,465 294 2,701 2.995 S29 2,220 196 2,745 400 2,218 878 3,496 Ducking 23 1,727 1,750 134 1,274 1,408 10 1,762 286 2,058 104 1,345 370 1,819 . Erpincjham 111 1,639 1,760 181 1,579 1,760 104 1,568 1,015 2,687 163 1,538 396 2,087 Faith,' St. 123 1,326 1,449 102 1,.307 1,409 99 1,073 392 1,564 97 1,041 229 1,367 Guiltcross 149 1,824 1,973 167 1,448 1,615 175 1,006 115 1,296 155 1,027 542 1,724 Henstead - 1,655 1,655 116 1,444 1,560 . 1,311 203 1,514 123 1,084 869 2,076 King's Lynn - ISO 1,248 1,398 180 1,147 1,327 277 883 166 1,326 310 1,083 309 1,702 Loddon and Claverlng 149 829 978 143 808 951 211 402 379 992 182 467 174 823 Mltford v\ Launditch 204 2,227 2,431 317 1,952 2,269 189 2,061 137 2,387 283 2,094 222 2,699 .SwaffhaTH - 1,127 1.127 149 999 1,148 . 1,472 335 1,807 129 1,321 715 2,165 Thetford 43 1,261 l,:i04 lis 1,0.35 1,133 53 1,021 621 1,695 118 893 585 1,696 Walsiugham - 215 1,931 2,146 160 1,671 1,831 167 1,992 107 2,266 212 1,891 396 2,499 Wayland 61 1,297 1,358 141 938 1,079 58 689 256 1,203 115 855 295 1,265 NORTHAMPTON: Brixworth 16 1,329 1,345 95 1,125 1,220 20 1,379 _ 1,399 108 1,234 278 1,620 Hardiut^stone - 106 515 621 83 578 663 190 422 229 841 193 478 221 692 Kettering 74 1,856 1,930 95 1,831 1,926 118 1,799 76 1,993 167 1,756 287 2,209 Northampton - 124 1,055 1,179 128 976 1,104 274 889 7 1,170 162 949 342 1,473 Onndle - - . 53 838 891 89 804 893 86 898 167 1,161 161 813 441 1,415 I'eterl)orough - 116 1,206 1,322 128 1,406 1,534 187 1,128 91 1,406 232 1,201 943 2,376 Potterspury 45 438 483 75 461 536 57 617 141 615 116 637 180 932 Thrapston - 607 607 66 1,075 1,141 - 1,131 157 1,268 163 997 509 1,459 NORTHUMBERLAND Morpeth 47 735 782 . 933 933 . 338 103 441 . 994 97 1,091 Newcastle- upon- Tyne 229 1,972 2,201 291 3,141 3,432 120 994 63 1,167 642 2,313 273 3,228 Rothbury - 656 556 - 552 652 - 211 29 240 752 75 827 NOTTINGHAM: East Retford - - 880 880 - 951 951 . 672 _ 672 . 854 207 1,061 Newark - 197 501 698 155 782 937 353 629 1,666 2,648 145 694 719 1,568 OXFORD : Banbury 188 2,086 2,274 270 2,181 2,451 210 2,050 981 3,241 289 2,082 498 2,869 Chipping Norton - 1,480 1,480 138 1,202 1,340 . 1,133 8 1,141 182 984 914 2,0b0 Thame - 89 1,900 1,989 165 1,498 1,653 85 1,651 960 2,686 155 1,409 400 1,964 Witney ... 358 1,683 2,041 350 1,404 1,754 321 1,613 667 2,401 366 1,621 350 2,237 RUTLAND : Oakham . 640 640 41 601 642 . 683 170 833 27 613 420 1,060 Uppingham - 765 765 57 684 741 - 903 132 1,036 70 722 344 1,136 SALOP : Bridgnorlii 127 400 527 122 402 624 158 388 477 1,023 157 388 290 8.35 Church Stretton 32 311 343 41 324 P65 36 226 109 371 45 233 111 369 Cleobury Mortimer - 41 416 457 67 416 483 71 265 176 632 69 306 160 535 Clun 44 846 390 47 410 457 23 214 270 507 54 479 236 76S Madeley 80 881 961 98 966 1,064 178 537 172 887 123 670 185 978 Jlarkct Drayton 85 601 586 131 555 686 34 101 199 334 109 474 142 725 Newport 33 509 542 90 602 692 59 911 704 1,674 102 441 60 603 Shiffhall 79 651 730 42 747 789 93 414 264 771 69 603 111 683 Wellington 97 489 586 78 524 602 116 407 163 686 93 438 177 708 SOMERSET: Axbridge - 1,786 1,786 . 2,226 2,226 - 1,788 35 1,823 1,965 390 2,355 Bath . 475 1,404 1,879 711 1,674 2,385 843 1,274 426 2,543 862 1,424 673 2,961 Beduiinster 128 1,565 1,693 120 1,650 1,970 197 1,254 148 1,599 205 1,375 267 1,847 BridgwatQr 228 2,212 2,440 219 2,405 2,624 241 1,494 168 1,903 309 1,560 656 2,523 Chard . 151 2,097 2,248 182 3,431 3,613 145 1,104 348 1,597 178 1,280 470 1.928 Clutton - - 1,491 1,491 - 1,6W4 1,684 . 1,583 314 1,897 1,568 494 2,062 Dolverton ~ 322 322 * 324 324 • 417 71 488 - 439 38 497 220. (^continued.') S4 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE Appendix (B.) — Number of Paupers relieved, with the Amount of Money expended for the Relief and Maintenance of the Poor, dc.-^contmued. Number of Paupers relieved during the Quarters ended Expended for the Relief, &c. of the Poor during the Quarters ended U N LO N S. Christinas 1 836. Christmas 1S37. Christmas 1836. Christmas 1837. X In- Out- Total. In- Out- Total. In- Out- Estab- Total. In- Out- Estab- Total. door. door. door. door. door. door. lishment. door. door. lishment SOMERSET, continued. £. £. £. £. £. £. £. £. Pronie - - - 183 2,767 2,950 243 3,424 3.667 237 2,047 321 2,605 340 2,172 420 2,932 Keynshain 98 1,240 1,338 141 1,291 1,432 152 1,025 110 1,287 191 1,060 261 1,602 Langport 48 1,374 1,422 50 1,207 1,257 48 812 289 1,149 42 691 233 966 Shcpton MaUet - 1,336 1,336 126 2,268 2,393 - 1,854 215 2,069 120 1,694 692 2,506 Taunton 188 3,673 3,861 164 4,173 4,337 223 2,179 361 2,763 194 2,360 334 2,878 Wellington 168 2,278 2,436 171 2,694 2,865 253 1,443 146 1,842 203 1,802 362 2,367 Wells - - 1,215 1,215 . 1,458 1,458 - 997 39 1,0,36 _ 1,128 138 1,266 WiUiton - 2,529 2,529 - 2,476 2,476 - 1,473 231 1,704 . 1,672 277 1,949 Wincanton 117 2,829 2,946 123 2,667 2,790 112 1,954 291 2,367 123 2,125 254 2,502 SOUTHAMPTON : Alresford 137 459 696 138 489 627 195 516 266 975 238 490 256 983 Alton - - - 130 934 1,064 145 894 1,039 192 663 257 1,112 217 691 157 1,065 Andover 88 1,273 1,361 299 1,567 1,866 111 1,601 37 1,649 312 1,495 381 2,188 Basingstoke 105 2,242 2,347 169 2,219 2,378 40 1,611 697 2,348 124 1,673 275 2,072 Catherington - 64 144 208 59 163 222 66 165 72 303 64 147 82 283 Christchurch - !)5 694 789 91 729 '820 163 409 18 580 198 406 116 720 Droxford 161 1,054 1,216 176 1,147 1,323 184 680 291 1,155 238 767 362 1,367 Fareham 19.5 386 581 174 873 1,047 249 573 290 1,112 240 673 377 1,290 Fordingbridge - 119 609 628 84 665 749 98 431 378 907 100 516 123 739 Hartley Wintney 127 696 723 121 717 838 160 487 298 945 161 571 240 972 Havant - - - 94 259 353 108 385 493 99 313 240 652 143 328 184 665 Hursley- 29 93 122 67 106 173 49 85 85 219 84 91 87 262 Kingsclere 35 1,053 1,088 156 698 854 42 681 74 797 172 698 221 991 New Forest 138 874 1,012 151 1,068 1,219 11 641 6 657 216 710 280 1,206 PetersBeld - 1,087 1,087 87 851 938 - 712 20 732 37 646 436 1,018 Ringwood 90 329 419 96 368 464 104 293 46 442 109 312 133 554 South Stoneham 101 450 551 119 360 479 102 360 174 636 229 339 217 785 Whitchurch - 54 616 670 58 591 649 106 416 130 651 95 448 215 758 STAFFORD : Penkridge . 613 613 86 547 633 . 303 103 406 111 427 156 694 Stafford - 35 641 676 . 730 730 . 423 - 423 . 679 138 817 Stoke-upon- Trent - 892 871 1,763 603 1,073 1,676 210 960 1,254 2,424 434 688 588 1,680 Taltjworth 49 695 744 63 819 882 75 712 253 1,040 88 669 213 990 Wolverhampton 210 1,270 1,480 426 1,328 1,764 211 529 46 786 447 748 434 1,629 SUFFOLK : Blything 245 2,446 2,690 250 2,355 2,605 343 1,474 452 2,269 297 1,694 487 2,478 Bosmere and Claydon 251 1,135 1,386 268 1,119 1,387 287 872 319 1,478 386 935 408 1,729 Cosford - 270 1,367 1,643 208 1,218 1,426 192 1,044 263 1,499 252 1,007 444 1,703 Hartismere 1.33 2,013 2,146 202 1,658 1,860 96 1,721 350 2,166 192 1,450 473 2,115 Hoxne - - - 152 1,221 1,373 227 1,056 1,283 228 1,033 466 1,717 239 924 834 1,997 Ipswich - - - 176 1,989 2,165 270 1,778 2,048 264 1,375 104 1,743 304 1,492 469 2,265 Mildcnhall - 69 737 806 51 621 672 62 794 24S 1,094 38 746 252 1,036 Ploraesgate 222 1,447 1,669 164 1,906 2,070 135 1,731 389 2,255 229 1,802 519 2,550 Kisbridge 160 2,658 2,818 190 1,810 2,000 122 1,391 286 1,798 203 1,423 382 2,008 Sudbury 178 3,678 3,866 316 3,146 3,461 243 2,301 193 2,737 420 2,392 1,350 4,162 Thingoe - - 2.251 2,251 111 1,392 1,503 - 1,629 322 1,951 173 1,356 332 1,861 Wangford 165 1,027 1,192 162 964 1,116 215 763 258 1,236 211 777 329 1,317 VVoodbridge - 341 1,675 2,016 280 1,940 2,220 333 1,571 232 2,136 360 1,794 467 2,621 SURREY: Camberwell 270 962 1,222 262 718 980 813 874 316 2,002 619 754 668 2,041 Dorking 163 647 710 155 633 788 323 478 610 1,311 245 494 188 927 Epsom ... 240 882 1,122 208 1,229 1,437 573 644 472 1,689 390 811 356 1,567 Guildford 280 2,208 2,488 283 1,691 1,974 512 1,389 1,050 2,951 487 1,493 363 2,343 Kingston 189 904 1,093 193 962 1,165 343 669 661 1,463 234 783 358 1,375 Larabeth — — — — — — _^ _ __ St. Olave 356 904 1,260 381 817 1,198 434 524 465 1,423 412 441 488 1,341 Eothcrhithe - 301 702 1,003 303 724 1,027 407 495 1,264 2,166 213 194 394 801 SUSSEX: Cuckfield 152 1,686 1,8,38 215 1,633 1,748 156 892 268 1,315 255 1,012 323 1,590 Fast Grinstead 357 768 1,125 377 611 1,188 396 822 586 1,804 431 721 676 1,728 Hnrsham 141 883 1,024 183 1,170 1 ,353 247 746 923 1,916 323 783 366 1,472 Midhurst 156 819 975 182 874 1,056 170 719 713 1,602 210 727 375 1,312 Petworth 144 689 833 166 846 1,012 199 391 264 854 264 624 238 1,02S Stevning 93 921 1,014 115 857 972 268 518 630 1,406 274 596 380 1,250 Thakehatn 85 286 371 126 372 498 106 277 102 485 183 363 192 738 Ticehurst 143 1,102 1,24.5 283 1,305 1,588 174 806 259 1,239 250 947 288 1,485 Uckfield 278 895 !,173 374 773 1,147 358 699 642 1,699 614 701 408 1,723 Weatl)(nmie 97 310 407 82 363 445 122 289 128 639 117 283 202 602 West Firle - 44 145 189 89 174 263 87 194 148 429 152 191 99 442 Westhampnett 250 630 880 230 610 840 256 GOO 494 1,349 292 543 684 1,519 WARWICK : Alccster - C5G 656 . 1,327 1,327 . 795 124 919 . 850 121 971 Meriden - - - 57 640 697 89 484 573 86 513 181 779 103 449 201 753 Solihull - 99 666 764 109 483 692 163 566 67 786 178 440 118 736 •Soutbaiu - 634 634 - 630 530 . 571 156 727 . 532 263 795 Warwick 132 1,426 1,558 184 1,631 1,815 197 1,405 330 4,932 290 1,471 330 2,091 ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 35 Appendix (B.)— -Number of Paupers relieved, w-ith the Amount of Money expended for the Relief and Maintenance of the Poor, &c. — continued. Number of Paupers relieved during the Quarte ■s ended Expended for the Relief, &c. of the Poor during the Quarters ended UNIONS. Christmas 1836. Christmas 1837. Christmas 1836. Christmas 1837. In- door. Out- door. Total. In- door. Out- door. Total. In- door. Out- door. Estab- lishment. Total. In- door. Out- door. Estab- ishment. Total. WESTMORLAND £. £. £. £. £. £. £. £. Kendal 348 1,425 1,773 359 1,981 2,340 393 902 679 1,974 405 1,217 453 2,075 WILTS: Alderbury Amesbury Highworth & Swindon Malmesbury - Melksham 85 209 105 87 57 1,317 990 1,039 1,486 2,090 679 1,402 990 1,248 1,591 2,177 736 139 84 218 114 131 80 1,018 494 1,426 1,567 2,661 707 1,157 678 1,644 1,681 2,792 787 126 232 120 141 89 944 676 8C1 792 1,432 643 30 68 204 166 88 123 1,099 744 1,297 1,098 1,661 855 220 115 213 129 172 108 906 457 1,049 884 1,664 630 317 238 334 197 267 136 1,443 810 1,596 1,210 2,103 874 Pewsey - 1,213 1,213 191 916 1,107 _ 878 400 1,278 218 811 185 1,214 100 923 1,023 87 1,029 1,116 88 787 58 933 \-2i 807 148 1,139 Warminster . 90 2,352 2,448 315 1,992 2,307 113 1,730 318 2,161 326 1,736 366 2,427 Westbury and Whor-^ 166 1,027 1,182 216 1,153 1,369 122 778 232 1,132 239 887 233 1,359 wellsdown - Wilton - -J 95 1,313 1,408 185 1,186 1,371 106 988 231 1,325 168 1,021 348 1,537 WORCESTER : 37 1,055 1,092 77 635 712 63 658 304 1,025 88 600 295 983 Tenbnry Upton-on- Severn 396 396 . 333 333 . 382 119 501 - 394 91 485 - 100 869 969 85 976 1,060 126 692 169 987 113 653 221 987 WALES. GLAMORGAN: Neath - 141 - 1,192 1,192 35 1,361 1,396 - 744 91 835 62 1,144 187 1,393 TOTALS of 2 31,145 251,847 282,992 38,530 255,794 294,324 40,390 197,175 64,679 302,144) 42,576 188,656 67,886 299,118 Unions - -J Average for each"! Union - - / 145 1,177 1,322 180 1,195 1,376 189 921 302 1,412 199 882 317 1,398 Average Population The Pre portion w hich the J iverage Number of Paupers in 1831. bear t > the Ave rage Population. 16,745 ^ h h h h ^ 15 March 1838. E. Ctiadwich. 2'2Q. SIXTEENTH REPORT pnoM SKLECr COMiMUTKE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT; WITH TUE MINUTES or EVIDENCE, AvND APPENDIX. Oiileieil, liy TIk.- Jlouse of Coinnioiis, Ui he Printed, 16 Mnrc/i. 1838, •2-::'>. SEVENTEEN T IT REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT; WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, AND APPENDIX. Ordered, hy The House of Commons, to he Printed, 20 March 1838. 222. [ ii ] Lunae, ■I']' die Noveinhm, 1837. Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the Administration of the Rehef of the Poor, under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act. Ordered, That the Committee consist of Twenty-one Members : Lord John Russell. Mr. Ward. Mr. Fazakerley. ' . Lord Viscount Howick. Mr. Richard Walker. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Poulett Scrope. Mr. Villiers. Mr. Baines. Mr. Miles (Somerset). Mr. Boiling. Mr. Law Hodges. Mr. Lister. Mr. Chichester. Sir Thomas Fremantle. Mr. Slaney. Mr. Bameby. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Liddell. Mr. John Fielden. Mr. Estcourt (Devizes). Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers and Records. Ordered, That Five be the Quorum of tlie Committee. Jovis, 8° die Fehnmrii, 1 838. Ordered, That power be given to the Committee to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House. THE REPORT p. iii MINUTES OF EVIDENCE p. 1 APPENDIX - - - p. 24 [ iii ] REPORT. THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the Administration of the Relief of the Poor under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act ; and who were empowered to report the Minutes of Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House :— TT AVE taken some further Evidence, which they have agreed to report to The House. 20 March 1838. 222. [ iv ] WITNESS. J. P. Kay, Esq., m.p. p. 1 [ 1 I MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Martis, 20' die Martii, 1838. MEMBERS PRESENT Mr. Baines. Mr. Bameby. Mr. Boiling. Mr. Fielden. Sir T. Fremantle. Mr. Hodges. Lord Howick. Mr. Liddeli. Mr. Miles. Mr. Scrope. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Freshfield. MR. FAZAKERLEY in the Chair. James Phillips Kay, Esq., m.d., again called in; and further Examined. 5000. Chairman ^^ HAVE you had occasion to consider mych the migration of labourers from the southern to the northern districts of England ? — My attention to that subject was first excited before I had any connexion with the Commission, by excursions which I made for the purpose of ascertaining the condition of the labourers in the county of Derbyshire and in the north-western parts of Yorkshire. The mines in Derbyshire had extensively failed ; a very large portion of the population had been thrown out of employment ; the income of the miners had very much diminished, and it was absolutely necessary that a certain portion of the population should remove elsewhere. I found that a large portion of tlie population had voluntarily removed from the vallies of Derbyshire to the manufacturing districts, and that a disposition existed among several of those remaining to make a similar change in their habitation and employment ; also in the valleys in the north-western parts of Yorkshire, it was quite apparent that the population had been usefully thinned by a migration to the manufactur- ing districts of Yorkshire, particularly in the vallies of the Swale, the Whaif, and other of the moorland vallies, where the means of subsistence are not great, and where the population have apparently outstripped the resources of the soil. Those considerations had been for some time in my mind, before my attention was specially drawn to the subject by the Poor Law Commissioners. 5001. Mr. Liddeli."] Those latter cases which you have alluded to of the vallies of the Swale and Whaif were manufacturing districts ? — They were manufac- turing districts in all the upper parts; in the lowest parts of them there are mills built upon the streams which are the seats of manufacture ; in the higher portions, nearer to the moorland districts, the occupations of the population are solely agricultural. 5002. Chairman.] Do you not think it extremely desirable, if there should be a demand for labour in the manufacturing districts, and if there should appear to be a surplus of labour in the agricultural districts, that facilities should be given for removing the surplus from the agricultural to the manufacturing districts r — Certainly; it appears to me that it is quite impossible to prevent such transfer, for if it did not occur from the agricultural districts in England, it certainly would occur, as it has occurred, from the agricultural districts of Ireland, and particular reference is made to the extent of Irish immigration in the report which I had the honour to present to the Poor Law Commissioners. I state there, that the population in Lancashire have increased in a much greater ratio than the excess of the births over the deaths, that such increase must be attributed solely to immigration, and that very large bodies of Irish labourers have settled in the towns and in the rural districts, who were employed in the inferior branches of the cotton trade, and in the subsidiary employments connected with it. 5003. At what time did the Commissioners issue any regulations respecting the system of migration ?— A certain amount of voluntary migration had taken place 222. A before J. P. Kay, Esq. M. D. 20 March 1838. 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. P. Kuy, Esq. before representations were made to the Poor Law Commissioners of the expe- M. D. diency of placing it under proper regulations ; letters had been received from the —^—— principal manufacturers of the cotton trade, especially in Lancashire; and certain 20 March 1838. efforts had been made by benevolent individuals in the south to remove a portion of surplus labour, found in particular parishes, to Lancashire. I was therefore directed to report to the Commissioners, and my report was accompanied with the strongest possible recommendation, that this migration should not be left to be regulated according to the information existing among individuals only, but that a system should be devised for the purpose of restraining the migration from ever exceeding the actual demand. The Commissioners then appointed an agent, and devised forms of contract in order that, in the terms of my report, the Commissioners might " constantly receive information from that agent, which would enable them to check abuses and remedy defects in the system of migration which they might adopt, of which evils they would otherwise have no knowledge ; and that he would be chiefly useful in regulating the supply of labour to the demand existing in the cotton district, and providing against the possibility of that supply being improperly used, or overstepping at any moment of legitimate demand." I felt perfectly sure, that if the migration were left to the irregular impulses, either of benevolence or the wants of individuals, it would be attended with con- siderable pressure upon individuals, and with unfortunate results in those cases ; and that it was absolutely impossible to prevent, under the circumstances, some migration occurring, but the legitimate object was so to regulate it as to procure the greatest amount of good with the least amount of evil. 5004. Is not the migration that is entirely voluntary, and is not directed or controlled by any regulations, likely to expose the parties who migrate to incon- venience, when they arrive in the manufacturing districts, and to disappointment occasionally in finding employment? — Certainly, and on that account I have universally urged in the strongest manner upon boards of guardians, and upon meetings of occupiers in the respective districts of Norfolk and Suflblk, that no cases of migration whatsoever should occur, excepting after a contract had been obtained by the migration agent for the individuals, and arrangements had been made for their location in a proper cottage, and a proper outfit had been provided, both for their wants upon their journey and for their wants when they settled in the district ; I have to the last degree deprecated that migration should occur under any other circumstances than those advised by the Commissioners. 5005. Migration did occur to some extent voluntarily, did it not, from Norfolk and Suffolk before you gave that advice ? — Certainly it had occurred voluntarily ; I particularly remember one parish on the borders of Essex, where a clergyman who is connected with one of the most influential county families in Lancashire, from whom, I believe, he had received information concerning the extraordi- nary demand for labour in the cotton district, used great exertions to procure' the migration of labourers from the parish of which he was minister ; and I also am aware that that migration and all similar migrations, though conducted by the most benevolent individuals, have been by no means so successful as the cases of migration which have been conducted through the agency of the Poor Law Com- missioners. 5006. Since you have been in Norfolk and Suffolk have you met with any instances, either of individuals who migrated voluntarily, or who migrated subse- quently to the regulation of the Commissioners, who have returned disappointed from not finding employment? — Those cases have been chiefly of individuals who migrated without the agency of the Poor Law Commissioners ; I am not able to state their exact number, but the passage that I read to the Committee from the report the other day, will show that I anticipated that a certain amount of labourers would be disappointed M'ith the continuous monotonous employment of the north, and that it would prove an insupportable burthen to them, especially as their industry had been impaired by the previously existing system in the south ; and I read a letter which showed what those qualities were which interfered with their success in the peculiar and laborious employments of the north. 5007. Since the Commissioners have provided an agent for superintending this migration, and since you have given this advice, which you have described, to the boards of guardians in Norfolk and Suflblk, have you observed that the system of voluntary migration has continued ? — There have been, I believe, instances in which, on the responsibility of individuals, that system has been resorted to ; but I believe ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 3 I believe that, in the great majority of instances, the agent of the Poor Law Com- J- P- Ka^, Esq. missioners has been the means by which the migration has been conducted. ' 5008, Do you believe that the migration from the districts under your su- 20 Ma,.ch 1838. perintendence is now conducted under the direction of the migration agent, or that it takes place voluntarily ?— Recently we have not had any migration; but if it occurred now, it would occur, and has occurred for a considerable • time past, solely through the migration agent. I may be permitted to observe that the instances of voluntary migration, to which I have alluded in the north, are by no means the onlv instances, and I am anxious to refer to the report of Mr. George Cornewall Lewis, respecting the migration which has occurred in Scotland, under the free circulation of labour in Scotland : Mr. Lewis observes, " In Scotland the circulation of labour has not been impeded by an ill-adminis- tered system of poor laws, and there appears to have been an influx from all quarters into the large towns. ' A large part of the population of Glasgow,' says Mr. Tait, ' consists of Scotch from the Lowlands. Taking Glasgow as the centre, there are persons who have come to it from all sides, within a circuit of 60 miles. My father originally came from the Lothians, and had been a country farmer ; he was driven out by the improvements in farming, became a mechanic, and settled in Glasgow. Most of my acquaintances either were born in the country, or their parents came directly from the country. When the extinction of small farms took place, and the cotters were driven in from their agricultural and pastoral employments, they first collected in villages, and then gradually inclined to the large towns, especially to Glasgow, from the Lothians. In my opinion, the population of Glasgow may be divided into five parts, of which the native inhabitants would be one-fifth, the Lowlanders two-fifths, the Highlanders one- fifth, and the Irish one-fifth. There are few persons you meet with in Glasgow who can say that their fathers were born in the town.' If, therefore, there has been, and is, in Scotland, a perfectly ffree circulation of labour, the Irish emi- gration into the Lowlands, so far as it has not displaced the native labourers, can only have been owing to the inadequacy of the population to supply the demand for labour. So far as it has displaced the native population, as in Wigtonshire and Kirkcudbrightshire, where the labourers of the place have, in a great mea- sure, migrated, abandoning the country to the Irish, it has arisen from the wil- lingness of the Irish to accept lower wages, and to acquiesce in a lower standard of existence than the native working cksses. The south-western angle of Scot- land is the only part of Great Britain in which the Irish have spread beyond the towns, and have settled over the face of the country as agricultural labourers. In England the Irisli labourers have scarcely spread beyond the towns, and in these they, for the most part, work concurrently with the natives at different kinds of coarse labour. Nevertheless there are some branches of industry, which in some towns they have nearly monopolized, as that of serving masons and brick- layers in Liverpool and Manchester,"^ — and so on. 5009. Mr. LiddelL] You have stated that the migrations of labourers have taken place under the agency of the Poor Law Commissioners ; supposing there was not a board of Poor Law Commissioners, would there be any difficulty in boards of guardians communicating with each other, and regulating the migra- tion in the same way as it has been done by the Poor Law Commissioners ? — There would be a great difficulty, because, of necessity, there must be a central agent, and that agency could not well be created by boards of guardians ; I do not see how hoards of guardians can unite for the purpose of electing an agent, or of employing one single agent ; it appears to me that great facilities have been afforded by the Poor Law Commissioners for the right regulation of migration. 5010. Boards of guardians would know, at least, cases where there was a surplus of labour in their own vicinity? — Certainly. 50U. They might also acquire information as to other parts of the kingdom where there was a demand for labour ^ — Certainly. 5012. In such cases, then, it does not appear very difficult that the boards of guardians should make arrangements with parties to facilitate the migration ot labourers from one part of the kingdom to another ? — Certainly not ; but the information derived by a board of guardians is probably less likely to be minutely accurate, and their power of appointing a proper agent and of attending to all the minute details affecting the well-being of the class migrating does not appear to me to be so great as that of the Poor Law Commissioners. 222. A 2 5013' Nevertheless 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. p. Kay, Esq., 5013- Nevertheless, though the machinery might not be so perfect, it would be M. D. a great improvement upon the system of voluntary migration, with all the uncer- tainty to which it was exposed ? — Certainly. 20 March 1838. 5014. Mr. Baincs.] Must there not have been a great deal of voluntary migra- tion for many years into all the manufacturing districts, as the population of the manufacturing districts has increased so much beyond the ratio of increase which would take place in the regular increase of population ? — Certainly. 5015. Do you not suppose that, generally, there has been a self- regulating principle in that way by persons who have migrated to Manchester, for instance, from Ireland, communicating with their friends in Ireland, and representing to them what was the situation of the persons who had so migrated, and what was the prospect of employment for those that might follow ? — Certainly ; but I am perfectly aware, and I am supported in that belief by the very able report of Mr. George Cornewall Lewis on the migration of the Irish, that the Irish coming over in that way, though they have been supported by the charity of their relatives and friends settled in the district, to a considerable extent, have encountered, seeing that their migration was voluntary, a good deal of unnecessary privation in the first instance. 5016. With respect to the board of guardians taking upon themselves the office of migration agents, would it not be attended with considerable difficulty in this way, that their other functions occupy as much of their leisure as they can very ■well appropriate to the purposes of their official duties ; and would not a person resident in the district, who was particularly charged with that duty, be more likely to attend to the business than persons who might take it up accidentally, like the boards of guardians? — Certainly; the appointment of an agent is very desirable, because he is constantly obtaining information and acquiring skill in making and superintending the different arrangements. 5017. Does he keep up a correspondence between the manufacturers and others in the place where he is stationed, with the boards of guardians at a distance, from which migrants may come? — Certainly. 5018. Therefore there is a kind of communication which enables those who are wanting work to know where the work is to be found, and which enables those who are wanting workmen to know where the labourers are to be found ? — Certainly ; and which insures, by means of contracts, that the labourers shall have for a considerable period work, and that they shall not be stimulated by motives of enterprise to encounter risks which are undesirable in their station of life. 5019. And that arrangement brings together two parties wanting each other, the one the party who wants labour, and the other the party who wants labourers? — Certainly. .5020. Do you happen to know whether there has been any complaint on the part of the labouring classes in the manufacturing districts, of those parties arriv- ing in too large numbers, so as to absorb their labour, and to deprive them of the employment that they would have obtained if it had not been for the migretion system ? — I believe there may have been such complaints ; I noticed in my report the great desirableness of a change in the occu])ation, particularly of the hand-loom weavers. I believe myself that the immigration of the Irish has been among the causes with the introduction of the power-loom, of the depression of that particular branch of trade ; but I noticed in that report that the tendency of the hand-loom weavers to change their occupation, had been far less than the tendency of the Irish to change their districts ; the passage occurs in page 309 : " Nevertheless the tendency among the hand-loom weavers to change their occu- pation, was at no period between 1811 and 1821, so strong as to prevent the immigration of 8,800 persons annually into Lancashire ; and the tendency to migrate to Lancashire from other counties, and from Ireland, has been stronger in 17,000 persons in every year, of the period intervening between the years 1821 and 1831, than the tendency among the hand-loom weavers to accept factory occupation within the same period ; and as the wages of the hand-loom weavers are better now than they were during any part of this last-mentioned period, and the wages of mill hands have not advanced, it is apparent, that as far as the incentive of wages is concerned, the inducement among the weavers to change their employment is now less than it has been. These circumstances afford no reason for anticipating an increased inclination to enter the factories on the part of the weaving population, so as materially to disturb the relation of the numbers consenting ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 5 consenting to such a change, with tlie numbers migrating to the county in the .7 p. Kav Esu future as compared with the past." ' m. d! 5021. Have the persons who have come from the agricultural districts into the — manufacturing districts, been in any way persecuted by the persons whose work *o March 1S38. they miglit be supposed to taker— 1 do not think they have; and all the early accounts were, that they were received with great cordiality by the mechanics ; but on that subject my information must of necessity not be so precise as that of Mr. Muggeridge. 5022. C/iairman.'\ With, regard to the relieving officers in your district, how frequently do they go into parishes for the purpose of administering relief ?— It has been my wish, that as the relieving officers' duties have diminished in certain respects, their visits to the parishes should be made more frequent ; and with that view I addressed a circular to the various boards of guardians during the last summer, urging that the visits of the relieving officers to the respective parishes* of then- districts should be more frequently made ; and in certain boards of guardians now, a plan is adopted which I think ought to become universal, and which 1 intend to encourage to the utmost extent, that the relieving officers should keep a diary of their visits, and state therein what cottages of the poor they have visited, and what have been their engagements during the day. In the Bosmere and Claydon Union a journal of that kind has been kept for one quarter ; and upon an inspection of it I found that the system of payino- the poor at the station had been abandoned, and that the poor were all paid in^their own cottages, and visited from week to week in their own cottages, at least once, and a great number of them twice, in the week. 5023. Does the relieving officer produce that diary at the weekly meetings of the board r — He does. 5024. Are the guardians in the habit of inspecting it ?— Certainly ; and I have communicated the plan to several of the unions, with very strong recommenda- tions that it should be adopted in them ; and I am aware that it has been adopted in three or four unions, and is very likely to spread to the rest. 5025. The relieving officer goes, at least once a week, to every parish ? — Cer- tainly, at least once a week to every parish ; recently the attention of the board of guardians has been called to the propriety of the relieving officers visiting the parishes more than once a week. I cannot say that in every instance that has been done, and I know in some unions it has not been done, but I hope that in the course of this summer I shall be able to make arrangements for the relieving officers visiting the parishes twice a week. 5026. That must depend upon the population of the parish ?— It must, and the extent of the progress made in the working of the law. I may state that in some parishes the population is so exceedingly small, and the paupers are so very few in number, that there may be, and I believe are, cases in which a couple of parishes are united for the relieving officers' duties, and are accounted one parish. 5027. What do you imagine to be the population of the parishes so united?— From 100 to 200, with perhaps a dozen paupers. 5028. Sir T. Frenuintle.] In the unions of which you are speaking, is relief in kind permitted ?— It is, to able-bodied males and females ; whenever an aged person or a sick person desires relief in kind, that is permitted ; but in the cases of the aged and sick it is more common to give the larger amount in money. 5029. Do you give any in kind ?— Whenever it is desired ; in some unions relief is given in kind, and to those classes. 5030. When the relieving officer goes round to make his weekly payments, is he accompanied by the baker and his cart ?— I have recommended to boards of guardians during the last summer, that, seeing that the number of able-bodied paupers had diminished considerably, either the number of stations should be iricreased, if it were the intention of the boards of guardians to give relief in kind to the remaining classes of paupers, or that the plan of sending the baker's cart round to the various parishes should be adopted, which I consider preferable to the plan of having stations ; I cannot say that it has been extensively adopted in my district, though I think it preferable in every case, and I recommended it by a circular ; but I believe the reason why it has not been adopted, is that the majority of the boards of guardians prefer relieving the paupers to a considerable extent m money, and that they do not therefore see the necessity for adopting- a diffisrent arrangement from that which has obtained. ^ ~^'^- A3 ■ 5031. In 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. p. Kay, Esq. 5031. In those parishes where it is the practice for the baker's cart to proceed, M. D. would not inconvenience be found in relieving the paupers at their own houses ? ■~~ ~ — I think that the money might be paid at the house of the pauper, and a ticket aoi. arci 1 3 . gjygjj ^Q procure the flour or bread from the parish ; but probably it would be more convenient to those who had any physical disability, because the road would go through a large portion of the parish, and they might meet the cart at different parts of the road, so as to diminish the extent that they had to travel. 5032. Chairman.'] But where a population is collected in a parish where the distance is not considerable, unless in case of sickness or infirmity, it would not be any great inconvenience to the pauper meeting the relieving officer at an appointed place ? — My only consideration was, that I thought as the able-bodied did not receive relief, if relief in kind were given, greater facilities should be afforded for the remaining classes obtaining that relief. 5033. Sir T. Fremantle.'] Uo you not think it necessary that the relieving officer should visit each parish twice or thrice a week ? — I consider it very desir- able, if not necessary, and I ha-ve great confidence that such arrangement will be adopted extensively, if not universally, this summer, in the unions of Norfolk and Suftblk. 5034. Would not that have the effect of obviating, in most cases, the necessity of poor persons desiring to obtain relief going in search of the relieving officer before they applied to the board? — I think the cases in which poor persons do go in search of the relieving officer are not numerous ; I think the more common case is, that they speak to the relieving officer when he is in the parish. 5035. If he comes only once a week to the parish, and he is occupied during that period in making payments, his time is limited, and he is unable to give that attention to the cases which he otherwise would, is he not ? — He is ; and I should prefer on that account that he should visit the parish twice a week. 5036. Chair inan.} Do you specify the day on which he is to go to the parish ? — It is known, and the time is fixed, and he is enjoined to keep it. 5037. Do vou require that he should remain a particular time in the parish, so as to be within the reach of applicants? — I think the common case is, to settle the route and fix the time; I do not know whether the regulations are so precise as to require that he should remain a stated period in the parish. 5038. Sir T. Fremantle.] Are you aware that it has been suggested that the time at which the relieving officer should visit the parish ought not to be specified, in order that he might have an opportunity of ascertaining what the situation of the poor persons is, by coming upon them when they are not prepared for it ? — I think that the suggestion, if made, must have reference to his visits of inquiry, not his visits of relief. 5039. His visits of relief, you think, ought to be fixed to a certain day ? — Yes. 5040. Mr. Baines.] Does the relieving officer visit every family on his weekly visits r — By no means ; I stated in particular unions that such a plan was adopted, and I hoped that it would spread, because it appeared to me desirable that those visits should be made, on every account. 5041. You mean a weekly visit to every family? — It has been made, in the Bosmere and Claydon Union, to every family. 5042. What has been the effect of that course ? — I think the effect has been that the board has obtained more information concerning the condition of the various families; and I think that it is also a plan which the poorer classes them- selves prefer. 5043. And therefore you would recommend it for general adoption ? — Yes. 5044. Mr. Scrope.] In case you renounce the plan of the relieving officer calling at particular stations, how would the paupei's who are not on the poor list, but who are desirous of relief, have an opportunity of applying to them ? — Of course he would have some station in the parish at vvhich to receive applications. 5045. At which he would call on some particular day? — Certainly. 5046. Chairman.] You were in Norfolk and Suffolk probably during the last frost ? — I was. 5047. Were the applications very numerous for relief during the frost ? — They varied in different unions; in several unions I do not think that they were much more numerous than the ordinary number of applications ; but they bore no pro- portion to the number that I myself expected might apply, and chiefly, I think, owing to the manner in which the boards of guardians decided to administer relief. .5048. Were ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838,j 7 5048. Were the workhouses generally full ? — By no means. J- P- Kai/, Esq. 5049. Did many of the able-bodied come into the workhouse?— The number »^»^ in the workhouses increased during the period of the frost, and on the whole ^^ ^^^^^h 1838. considerably, but, in some unions, I am aware that the number that came into the workhouses was small. 5050. Of those who did not come into the workhouse, did you understand, from what passed at the board of guardians, that the able-bodied obtained employ- ment? — The letters that I have already read to the Committee are the sources of my information, and they convey to me strong assurances that the able-bodied who did not accept relief, obtained employment. 5051. What was the nature of that employment? — I believe a certain amount of employment, particularly feeding of cattle and cleaning the yards, and such occupation, is increased at such periods rather than diminished ; I do not know that I am able to inform the Committee all the minute details of the sources of the employment they did obtain ; I can only state to the Committee the general assurances which I received from the chairmen of different unions. 5052. Independently of those different assurances, were you in the habit of attending the boards of guardians at this period ? — Certainly. 5053. You heard those cases discussed and determined upon at the boards of guardians? — Yes. 50,54. And does what passed at the boards of guardians in those discussions and determinations confirm the impression made upon your mind by the letters of the chairmen of the unions ? — The general impression of the boards of guar- dians was, that there would be no difficulty on the part of occupiers, if their interest was made plain to them, in providing employment for the labourers during the snow-storm. 5055. Mr. Scrope.] Are you of opinion that mendicancy has increased in your district since the passing of the new Poor Law ? — I hold quite a contrary opinion. 5056. Is it the fact, that mendicants travel through the country, and apply to the farm-houses and other houses so as to become a nuisance ? — I think there are no counties in England in which there is less mendicancy than in Norfolk and Suffolk ; and my inquiries lead me to believe that it chiefly occurs on the roads to the outports, on the line between Lynn and Bury and Cambridge, and also on the roads from Yarmouth and Norwich to Ipswich. 5057. Then your attention has not been called to the propriety of adopting some system by which mendicancy should be suppressed, it being without any excuse under a good system of poor law ? — In one union, I believe, the resolu- tions recommended by the Marquis of Salisbury have been adopted, without any recommendation from myself; but I have not seen any cause for interference in the matter ; I do not think that mendicancy extensively exists in Norfolk and Suffolk ; I believe it is chiefly confined to the district I have described. 5058. Sir 7'. Fi-anantle.'] I understood you to say, that you had attended the sittings of the boards of guardians ; is that so ? — Certainly. 5059. Are you of opinion that the relief given by the board to the several applicants, as they presented themselves, has been administered upon a principle which was sufhcient to afford them adequate relief? — I think that, inasmuch as opinions upon different cases differ among boards of guardians, I may have seen cases in which I thought the relief ought to have been more, and in which I differed from the board of guardians ; but if the question has a general reference, I think the amount of relief to the aged and infirm has increased in my district since the operation of the new Poor Law, and particularly to the sick. The table which I presented to the Committee at its last sitting, would show that the amount of relief to the sick had increased ; and I am also in possession of comparative statements of the amount of relief given to the aged, which lead me to believe that the amount of relief to the aged has increased. 5060. Then, you are not prepared to say that any inconvenience has been experienced by boards of guardians acting upon too harsh a principle with refer- ence to the administration of out-door relief? — Generally, I believe that the boards of guardians administer out-door relief with care, and that discretion may be safely confided to them. 5061. But, if the board of guardians should feel it necessary to act upon a harsh principle, is there any appeal for the poor, or any relief afforded under the operation of the present law? — The discretion must be entrusted somewhere, and 222. A 4 1 do 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. P. Kay, Es(|. I do not think that the discretion can be entrusted anywhere better than to a large "• °- body, not representing individual interests, but representing general interests, and ' "■ practically acquainted with the habits and wants of the poorer classes, and which 20 March i 3 . ^^Q^y comprises also persons of great intelligence of the upper classes. 5062. Have you ever observed the board of guardians acting upon this prin- ciple, to give to the applicants for out-door relief an insufficient maintenance, for the purpose of forcing them to come into the house, or rather, from knowing their ijnwillingness to accept the workhouse, to put up with an inadequate allowance ? — I do not know that I have ever directly known that ; I have known this, that when dissatisfaction has been expressed by an individual with the amount of relief afforded, the board of guardians has told him that he had always the alterna- tive of accepting the workhouse. 5063. But the amount of relief given has been such as you would consider, under the circumstances, adequate ? — 1 stated before, that there may be cases in which I have differed from the boards of guardians, not having authority to inter- fere in particular cases. I do not remember particular cases of that kind ; but, confining myself to general instances, I do believe the boards of guardians exercise their discretion mildly. 5064. Mr. Wakley.^ Will you be kind enough to state to the Committee what is the nature of the medical arrangements which you have made in the unions in Norfolk and Suffolk? — In Norfolk and Suffolk, the boards of guardians have, with only one or two exceptions, decided to give fixed salaries to the medical officers, bearing commonly a certain proportion to the population, that is, however, not a fixed proportion ; and have advertised in the local papers the salaries and the districts into which the union was divided for the purposes of medical relief; they have received the offers of medical gentlemen for the office of medical officers to the union, and have elected from among the number of applicants those whom they thought most desirable ; it has also been almost universally the rule to permit the medical officers so elected to provide themselves, with the approbation of the board of guardians, with whatever subsidiary assistance among their professional friends they might deem requisite for the right discharge of their duties ; and that course has been adopted because it was exceedingly difficult for the boards of guardians, or for the Assistant Poor Law Commissioner, to adapt the districts to the convenience of each medical gentleman in the district, without appearing to make districts for particular medical gentlemen. It has, therefore, been thought more expedient that those arrangements by which the convenience of the medical officers would be promoted, should be left to be settled among themselves, subject to the approbation of the boards of guardians. 5065. Have any instructions been sent from the Poor Law Commissioners to the boards of guardians upon that subject ? — I do not know that any direct instructions have been at any period sent from the Poor Law Commissioners. 5066. Do you consider that there is any provision in the Act of Parliament which empowers the Commissioners to allow the medical men with whom they make their contracts to sublet the paupers in their district?— If that were posi- tively and distinctly the case, I do not see the provision ; but the fact is this, that the board of guardians, upon recommendation from the medical officers after they are elected, immediately re-arrange the districts, and they assume a new form ; it is never done without the approbation of the board of guardians, and that makes it their act, and not the act of the medical officers. 5067. What is the nature of the qualification demanded of the medical practi- tioners ? — The qualification is that understood to be demanded in the provision of the Poor Law Amendment Act, that the person elected shall be duly qualified by law, that is, either that he shall be a licentiate of the Apothecaries' Company, or that he shall have been in practice previously to the passing of the Apothe- caries' Act, or be a member of the Royal College of Surgeons, or a Physician, in which case he cannot dispense his own medicines, without rendering himself liable to prosecutions at law. 5068. Do you consider a member of the College of Surgeons licensed to prac- tise as a medical man ? — Not licensed to dispense his own medicines ; but the fact is, that the great majority of the gentlemen who are members of the Royal College of Surgeons are also licentiates of the Apothecaries' Company. 5069. Does not the greater part of the duty which a medical man has to exer- cise in the unions partake of the medical character, and not of the surgical ? — Certainly ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1S38.) 9 Certainly ; the great majority of the cases in practice are cases which formerly /. p. ^^v, Esq., were cases allotted to physicians as distinguished from surgeons. ' m. d. 5070. Have you any graduates of the Scotch universities in your unions? — "T^^ — r~Yo I think there may be one or two, but exceedingly few, the great majority being, I '^° ^^ believe, members of the Royal (College of Surgeons of London. 5071. Are you aware that you have any who are not licentiates of the Apothe- caries' Company?—! do not know that there is any single person not a member of the Apothecaries' Company, unless he were in practice previously to the passing of the Apothecaries' Act on August 1, 1815. 5072. Do you think that the medical arrrangements are satisfactorv to the medifol practitioners, and also to the poor.? — I believe that in arrangements of that kind a certain amount of dissatisfaction must occur ; but I think that to a large extent the present arrangements are more satisfactory than the arrangements made previously to the formation of tlie unions with the parishes and incor- porations. 5073. Are the sums now paid in the aggregate, for medical relief, greater than they were before the Poor Law Amendment Act came into operation ?— The Com- mittee are aware that the district of Norfolk and Suffolk was at the time that I entered it, peculiar in this respect ; that it contained numerous incorporations under local Acts, resembling very much in their character the unions under the Poor Law Amendment Act ; those incorporations adopted a similar practice in most respects in engaging medica.1 officers, to that which is adopted under the new unions ; and I find that the salaries given in the new unions and in many of the incor{)orations, now under the Commissioners' regulations, bear nearly the same relation to the population that the salaries given in the old incorporations did. For example, I find in the Mitford and Launditch incorporation, in Norfolk, the ratio of salary to the population was 5d. to each inhabitant ; in the Mitford and Launditch Union, the proportion of the salary to the population was 4|- d. : in the Stow incorporation' the proportion of the salary to the population under the incorporation was 4| (L ; the proportion of the salary, under the union, to the population is 4^- d. : in the Loddon and Clavering incorporation, the proportion of the salary to the population was 2id- ; in the new union it is 3^^/. : in the Wangford incorporation, the pro- portion of the salary to the population was 2id. ; in the new union it is 3 ^. : in East and WestFlegg incorporation, the proportion of the salary to the population was 2^d.; in the new union, under the Poor Law Commissioners' regulations, it is 3U/. : in the Ccinies and Carl ford incorporation, the salary was'si d. to the population; in the Woodbridge Union, in which the old incorporation of Colnies and Carlford is now included, the salary to the population was 4| d. to each person : in Forehoe incorporation, upon a series of years, the salary to the po- pulation bore a proportion of 2 ff/., but if my memory serve me rightly, upon which I do not intend to make a positive statement to the Committee, the salary at the period when the incorporation was brought under the the regulations of the Commissioners was only ^d of what is here stated: in the Forehoe hundred the salary now bears a proportion of 3^/. to the population : in Great Yarmouth parish the salary was | enumerated in this table is 169 ; the number of medical practitioners duly qualified, who are resident in the unions, are 222; the number of medical practitioners duly qualified and resi- dent in the union, who are medical oflficers, 127 ; the number of medical prac- titioners duly qualified, resident in the union, and who are not medical officers, but resident in the same parish with one of the medical officers, 78 ; the number of practitioners duly qualified and resident in the union, who are not medical officers, but who do not reside in the same parish with a medical officer, 17 ; the number of practitioners duly qualified, who are medical officers for adjacent parishes, who reside beyond the limits of the union, 42 ; so that the exceptional cases of medical practitioners who are duly qualified and are resident in the union, are the cases chiefly in which those medical practitioners reside in the same 222. B 2 parish 12 xVIINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE /. P. Kay, Esq., parish with the medical practitioner who is employed by the union, all other cases M. D. of medical officers, with the exception of 17, being employed by the various unions. 20 March 1838. ^x/ie Witness delivered in the same. — Vide Appendix, No. 3.] 5087. Have you included in this calculation all who are employed by the medical contractors themselves ? —Those are officers of the union, their appoint- ment having in every case received the direct sanction of the board of guardians. 50S8. All the sub-agents have received the sanction of the board? — The board of guardians have no cognizance of what the exact nature of the pecu- niary arrangement maybe, they have only cognizance of the extent of the district, and the qualification of the medical officer. 5o8q. Do you find that that arrangement has given satisfaction among the the medical men and the poor, viz., the apportionment of the medical men to the population ; do you find that the medical men demand that a larger number should be employed? — I do-not think there is any great desire generally that a larger number of medical practitioners should be employed ; I believe there are medical practitioners in the district who would desire to become officers of unions, and there are one or two unions, which I should desire to avoid mentioning by name, in which, probably, arrangements will be soon made for admitting a larger num- ber of medical practitioners as medical officers of the union. 5090. Do you not consider it extremely desirable that the medical districts should be generally as small as possible? — 1 think it is desirable, if that can be done without apportioning the district with an especial reference to the interest of individuals, because if arrangements were made with that circumstance form- ing the most prominent feature of the arrangement, I fear, eventually, how- ever pure the motives of the individuals making them in the first instance might be, that there would be a tendency to favouritism, to the exclusion of persons equally well qualified. 5091. You are aware that the medical districts in Norfolk and Suffolk are smaller than in any other district in the kingdom ? — Indeed I do not know what the extent of other medical districts is. 5092. Do you not believe that tuey are so ? — I do not know. 5093. In making them so small, has it not been your desire to place withia the reach of the poor person a medical man in all cases of emergency ? — ■ I believe the arrangement of permitting the medical men to make subordinate arrangements with the medical practitioners of the union would conduce to that result ; and I thouo-ht that result desirable. 5094. Consequently the income to each medical practitioner is exceedingly small ? — I think that in obtaining the foregoing advantage you must sacrifice the advantage alluded to in the question, to a certain extent, that the medical officer's interest in his duties should be increased by the amount of income which he receives, which however is not a consideration which ought to be lost sight of. 5095. As you are yourself a physician, and you have had considerable expe- rience in the working of the existing medical arrangements, are there any sugges- tions which you could offer to the Committee for the improvement of the present system ? — Certainly there are ; the first suggestion I would make is this ; I con- sider the chief defect of the existing arrangement is, that the salaries of the medical officers are apportioned as an establishment charge, according to the averages of the union, and not as a parochial charge bearing any relation to the amount of medical relief in each particular parish ; and I do believe that in that way not only is a certain amount of risk and injury to the medical officer encoun- tered, but also there is not, as in other arrangements under the Poor Law Amend- ment Act, the same direct stimulus to the occupiers to afford the poorer classes the means of obtaining independent medical assistance for themselves, which the other arrangements in the unions appear to me to be especially adapted to obtain ; I should therefore say, that if any plan could be adopted by which the expense of the medical attendance should bear a proportion to the number of sick attended in the parish, that such an arrangement would be in every respect a great advan- tage. I also think that all who are paupers and in actual receipt of out-door relief, should, without the intervention of orders, receive medical assistance, and I would therefore have an arrangement made by which those who are actually in receipt of parochial relief (and that class may now be pretty well determined) should obtain medical assistance without the intervention of an order from any person whatsoever. ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 13 whatsoever, but upon an application and the presentation of a certificate that they J. P. Kuy, Escj., were in receipt of parochial relief. I would adopt that arrangement upon this "' °' ground, that the greater part of those persons are either infirm in body or in mind, .,q' j^jj^^^j^ jg„8 or are aged, and attention to the early stages of disease in all those cases is exceed- ingly desirable, and I have no doubt that an arrangement by which the medical officers would be called in at the earliest stages of disease, would tend to diminish their duties, and also to promote the efficacy of the medical relief to that class of poor. The first thing, therefore, to be done under that view of the arrangements would be, to make out for a certain period, for half-a-year or a year, the number of persons who might be expected in each parish to be in receipt of out-door relief for that half-year or that year, and then to settle the salary, either at so much per head, or bearing a proportion to the number for the medical officer in the case of each individual parish. This duty would have to be performed by the board of guardians. The arrangements for the admission of cases beyond that class might be subject to various modifications, suggested by experience ; that which at present suggests itself to me is this, that the cases of casualty and of sickness occurring among able-bodied labourers and persons not in receipt of out-door relief, should be made the subject of an arrangement at so much per Ciise, which payment, I think, might be founded upon elements which are accessible from various sources of information. 5096. You mean the case system to apply only to those who are not included in the half-yearly list? — Certainly. 5097. Supposing a half-yearly list were made out, as you have described, and the pauper population contained in that list were scattered over such a district as you have described, say four and a half miles square, what sum should you deem to be an adequate compensation to the medical practitioner? — 1 do not think that I am prepared to make to the Committee any proposition upon that subject. In reflecting upon the principles on which it might be desirable to base the remune- ration of medical practitioners, I desire, with great deference, and, at the same time, with some hesitation, to state, that this appears to me to be a reasonable principle — provided it can be ascertained in any way what is the average sum paid by the class of poor out of their own earnings for medical assistance, I cannot believe that it would be proper that the sum paid by the parish or the union should exceed the proportion paid by the independent poor as a class ; I do not know that it ought to be lower, but 1 do not think that it ought to be higher. 5098. Are you not aware that medical practitioners sustain very heavy losses by their attendance upon the labouring population ? — I am aware of that, and I am also aware that many of the medical practitioners are (and 1 may presume to say it with great deference to them as a body) averse to the system of mutual assurances among the poorer classes ; but I do think, without reference to the question before the Committee, but merely in reference to my own experience in the profession, that the system of mutual assurance, as applied to medical relief, does afford to the medical j)rofession a larger amount of remuneration than the plan of obtaining from a small portion of the poor payment, and losing it in a great majority of other cases. 5099. Do you find that the profession concur with you in that opinion - — I do not think that they universally do, or that the majority do; but I think that a great portion of the profession does. 5100. Your remarks apply to the medical club system? — I wish to separate any particular system from the consideration of the principle which I submitted to the Committee ; I spoke of mutual assurances among the poor, ,5101. That is another term for the club-system? — Except that, in the club- system, there has been a certain scale of payment proposed, but which, I am aware, is open to objection, and that the medical club system has reference to particular rules and particular arrangements, all which I wish to separate fronv the general question of mutual assurance. 5102. Do you not consider that it is vicious in principle, that the board of guar- dians should interfere relative to the payments that are to be made by independent labourers to medical men? — I have always advised that the contrary course should be pursued ; and I have refrained, generally, from asking questions upon the subject of what those arrangements arc, becau.se I do think that is a subject which ought to be left to the medical practitioner and the poorer classes. 222. B 3 5103. Then 14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. P. Kay, Esq , 51 03. Then the Committee are to understand that in the unions of Norfolk and M-D. Suftblk, it has not been made a condition with the medical practitioner, before he was allowed to be an officer of the union, that he should admit the independent 20 March 1838. labourers upon certain terms, into what is called an independent club ? — I re- member one instance only, in which that was ever proposed, and in that particular instance I interfered, and strongly advised that such a course should not be adopted, believing- it to be quite inconsistent with the regulations which ought to obtain with the officers of the union. 5104. In the absence of the interference of any board of guardians, have independent clubs been established ? — They have, I believe extensively. But I wish also to inform the Committee, that I have thought that jealousies might be obviated, by not making- minute inquiries, and only in cases in which such information has been volunteered to me have I information to furnish the Committee. I believe I have no more right to inquire into such arrangements generally, than I have to inquire into the private business of a medical officer. 5105. Then, with regard to the statistics, you are quite unacquainted with them ■? — I have with me letters from medical practitioners, who have formed such clubs, giving me the number of their subscribers to such clubs, and furnishing me with an expression of satisfaction at the arrangements, which letters are at the service of the Committee, if they deem it desirable to hear them read. 5 106. You may read them ? — ^I have a letter here from a medical officer of the Aylsham Union, in Norfolk, giving me an account of his medical club. — [21ie JVitness read the same. — Vide Appendix, No. 4.] — Those are the rules. \The Witness delivered in the same. — Vide Appendix, No. 5.] 5107. You are not aware that the board of guardians sanction those rules? — Not at all. I believe that the board of guardians may have encouraged the for- mation of those clubs, and may have circulated information upon the subject ; but there has been no interference of the board in prescribing any set of rules, or in prescribing the terms to be adopted in any club. 5108. Chairman.'] Has the board of guardians in your district made a sub- scription to those clubs a condition of receiving medical relief? — In no instance; there was one instance where that was attempted, and I remonstrated against it, and whether it was adopted or not my memory does not enable me to say ; if it was, it was against the system, which I have endeavoured to promote, of the per- fect abstinence of the board of guardians from interfering in the medical club. 5109. Mr. Wakleti.'] Have you any other letter which you wish to read.? — I was informed by Mr. Robert Newton Shawe, the chairman of the Woodbridge Union, that Mr. Armstrong, a medical gentleman resident in Melton parish, had some experience of medical clubs, and I wrote him a note requesting him to meet me, in order that, if agreeable, he might communicate to me information, which he did in the following terms : [The Wit7iess read the same. — Vide Appendix, No. 6.] 51 10. Then the Committee understand distinctly from you that you deprecate all interference of the boards of guardians between medical men and the inde- pendent labouring population of the parish ? — As respects the agreement or the arrangements made between the independent poor and the medical officers, I think the boards of guardians have no more right to interfere, than with the other patients of the medical officer. 5111. And you are also of opinion, that, if it were possible, the payment of the medical practitioner should bear a strict proportion to the extent of duty that he has to execute ?— Certainly ; it is with that view alone that I propose to the Com- mittee a modification of the arrangement between the medical officers of unions and the boards of guardians. 5112. In the small medical district which you have described, do the poor find any difficulty in obtaining an order for medical relief? — I will not say that there are not particular instances in Norfolk and Suffi)lk, in which I should very much wish that the arrangements were better than they are ; but the Committee will perceive that the immense extent of duty imposed upon the Assistant-commis- sioners has prevented, till a recent period, our attending to minute details in every case ; I have great confidence that the summer will not pass before all that incon- cenience is done away with. ,5113. Thougk ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 15 5113. Though the districts are small, medical relief cannot be obtained in all J.P. Kat/.E^q., cases so speedily as you could desire? — There may be particular cases of that "•"• kind, and, I believe, are, which are exceptions to the general rule, and which are ~~~ ~~l\ '.,,','' ^ ° 20 March 1830. unavoidable. 5114. Would you not deprecate pressing down the payments of medical men to the lowest sum that can be obtained by contract ? — Yes. 5115. Do you not think where that is done that it tends to produce an inferiority of medical attendance, and an inferior description of medicine ?— I have always urged, in my district, that the system of contract by tender should not be adopted, because I have tliought it desirable that we should have the services of the most respectable medical practitioners ; and I have thought that if fixed salaries were offered we might procure that advantage, and that we might run the risk of not procuring that advantage if fixed salaries were not offered ; as respects the amount of remuneration given to the medical officers, it appeared to me that it was very difficult, in the first instance, to ascertain the true basis of our proceedings : I believe for the future the principle which I have stated to the Committee ought to be adopted as the basis, and that information ought to be procured in order to settle the amount of that remuneration. 5116. In how many instances have strangers obtained the contracts in the unions with which you have been connected ? — In not one. 5117. Would you approve of introducing strangers in preference to medical practitioners of the neighbourhood, if arrangements could be made with them upon fair and equitable terms ? — I should think that now there is no difficulty in making such arrangements with the medical practitioners. I believe, before the true in- tentions of the Poor Law Commissioners were understood, there were sometimes unnecessary irritation and vexation ; and the Committee must perceive that if the Commissioners were satisfied of the grounds of their proceedings, it was incumbent upon them, in every instance, not to yield to that irritation and vexation. Li my district, however, I do not remember that there has been any recent instance of that kind, and the only instance that I do remember was at the very first stage of the proceedings, before the arrangements were very well understood. 51 iS. Was it in the neighbourhood of Stowmarket ? — Some dissatisfaction existed there. 5119. What is the mode adopted relative to midwifery patients? — The arrange- ments in Norfolk and Suffolk have been of this kind. We have stated, in the terms of the resolution fixing the salary, that such midwifery cases should be attended as were required to be attended by the board of guardians ; but an ex- planation has always accompanied that resolution to the medical officers elected, that no requisition for the attendance of midwifery patients would be made, except in cases of difficult labour, or in cases of sudden and urgent necessity ; and I believe it will be found that exceedingly few midwifery patients have been attended in Norfolk and Suffolk. I believe that in one or two unions the common midwives of the district have been paid for attendance in midwifery, but it did appear to me to be that kind of medical attendance which ought to be the earliest got rid of, because the parties had several months the necessity of providing attendance in view, and that there ought to be only a limited number of cases which ought to be admitted by the board of guardians. 1 am aware of no difficulties upon that subject. 5120. Have you heard of complaints? — I have heard of complaints from time to time. 5121. In Norfolk and Suffolk the medical men are not called upon to attend the wives of labourers, except in difficult cases? — Certainly not. 5122. So that the same rule applies, with regard to the paupers under the board of guardians as applies to the wives of independent labourers ? — Certainly ; but we have very few able-bodied married persons, or none, in receipt of relief; and therefore, none paupers. 5123. Mr. Miles.] By whom are the payments made; by the board of guar- dians, or by the medical officers ? — In the cases which I have in my mind, there are one or two unions in which the payments are made by the board of guardians, in cases where they think medical relief ought to be afforded ; instances in which they give that form of relief are very few in number. 5124. Mr. Wakley.] Have you any tables showing what has been paid to medi- cal practitioners in any of the self-supporting dispensaries ? — I thought it would be desirable to procure such information, with the view simply of indicating what the payments now made are, by independent labourers, for attendance, and I have 222. B 4 here i6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE /. P. Kill/. Es.q., here an analysis of the expenditure of the Coventry Self-supporting Dispensary, M-K- from July 18, 1831 to March 25, 1837, under the several heads of expenditure, with the average of the cost per case, under various heads, comprising chiefly 20 larci las . medicine, surgeons' salaries, surgical instruments, and the dispenser's salary, and the cost per case, including, besides those heads, thus enumerated, the secre- tary's salary, carriage, postage, printing, advertising, stationery, &c. ; repairs, alterations, and painting; coals, candles, insurance, and rent; poor and church rates ; boys' wages. — [TheWit7iess delivered in the same. — Vide Appendix, No. 7.] — I Imve also similar statements of the expenditure of the Burlon-upon Trent Self- supporting Di-pensary, for the years ending (Jctober 31, 183G, and October 31, 1837. — [Tlie J Witness delivered i7i the same. — Vide Appendix, No. 8.] — 1 have an- other table of the Derby Self-supporting Charitable and Parochial Dispensary, from November 1831 to November 1836.— [T/^e Wittiess delivered in the same.— Vide Appendix, No 9.] — I put in those tables in answer to the question proposed to me, but I desire, at the same time, to state that I consider this information only to be usefid as one among many sources from which information can be derived, and I do not consider that this would enable us, of itself, to fix the remuneration for the medical officers ; but I think there must be information de- rived from many other sources before that can be ascertained. 5125. Is it stated in those cases how far the medical practitioners visited the patients from their own residence? — That is not stated in those tables ; but the population being a concentrated town population, they would have to travel a less distance than in the rural districts ; in the rural districts of Norfolk and Suffolk, the Commitiee will perceive that the average size of the districts is not such as to form, except in particular instances, a great obstacle to the medical officers. 5126. But still the time occupied in visiting the patients in the rural districts would be much longer than in the cases you have referred to ? — I am aware of that, and that an allowance must be made for that in making the remuneration to the medical ofHcers, but, at the same time, it ought to be taken into account that his private patients will be similarly scattered, and that in the discharge of his duties to the poor, he would be at the same time discharging his private practice. .5127. Do those tables furnish the amount of surgical instruments and dispen- ser's salary ? — Yes ; they are valuable upon that account ; but I am not dis- posed to place the same reliance upon them as to the amount of medical remu- neration. 5128. Is there any great variation between them in tlieir results ? — Singularly they approach very nearly to the same results. 5129. Chairmafi.] You have said that you object to the system of obtaining medical assistance by way of tender ; what is your objection to it? — I believe that the period is now passed when it may be necessary to resort to such a system ; in the first instance, I can perceive how the system was almost necessarily adopted. I may state, that my district is a peculiarly fortunate one in this respect, that it afforded, by the practice of the incorporations, a sort of rule which might be not improperly adopted ; but in other districts, where there were no means of ascertaining what rule ought to be adopted, it does appear to me that a reference to the medical gentlemen was that which it was most natural to take ; the objections which have been made by the medical profession probably were not anticipated at the time that this course was adopted, and those objections have daily become more apparent. I am guided, in stating that I think that course undesirable, very much by the knowledge that I have of the feelings of the medical profession; and, since those feelings have been expressed, I do not think that there is any desire on the part of the Poor Law Commissioners, but the con- trary, that such a plan should be pursued. 5130. Do you think that, considering the experience that the boards of guar- dians now have of the expense of medical attendance, the necessity which might at their first formation have existed for their having recourse to the system of tender, does not now exist ? — Certainly I do, and I think that there is a desire now to abandon that system. .5131. And you would prefer that the remuneration should be by way of fixed salary ? — Certainly. 5132. That salary to be determined by the board of guardians? — That salary to be determined by the board of guardians, upon the elements which I have submitted to the Committee, first, the number of persons who are in the receipt of ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 17 of out-door relief, and, secondly, by a payment for the individual cases of /. P. Kay, Esq., casualty. ' ""^ 5133. Mr. Barmby.l In the unions formed by you in Norfolk and Suffolk, have ,^^ March 1838. you adopted the payment of medical officers per case } — At present not in one union. 5134. Do you see any objection to adopting that method ? — I see this objec- tion, that until the settlement of the question of the relations between the poor and the board of guardians on the subject of medical attendance has occurred, there might be improper objections made by overseers to the relief of cases of emergency ; but, I believe, that now those relations are so well understood, that a short period only would elapse before any difficulty arising from that circumstance would be overcome. 5135. Have you any objection to state whether you think 7*. a case a sufficient remuneration for the medical officer? — I would rather avoid any thing so specific, because the circumstances must difler very much in different districts, and I think reference must be had to all the circumstances of locality, and especially to this principle, What are the payments made by independent labourers in the district '? before you can ascertain what ought to be paid per case for the paupers. 5136. You must be aware that, in many rural districts, the distance of the medical man from the residence of the paupers must be much greater than you have stated it to be in Norfolk and Suffolk ; could you, therefore, suggest to the Committee any precise rules to be laid down by them, as to the precise extent of a medical district ? — ^I think it would be impossible to prescribe that, and I think that all that can be expected by a witness before a Committee is, to indicate the principles upon which arrangements might be made ; the operation of those, principles must be affected very much by local circumstances. 5137. Are you averse to the formation of medical clubs under the control of boards of guardians ? — Certainly. 5138. Have you found in any of your unions that the medical officers have ordered a large allowance of meat or other necessaries, in cases where they have not been absolutely necessary, for the paupers ? — In one or two unions the boards of guardians have forwarded to me the weekly returns of the medical officers, in order that I might advise the board whether the amount of meat and porter and wine was not extraordinary; in those instances my replies have been, that it appeared to me that if the board of guardians were dissatisfied, they had an opportunity of expressing their dissatisfaction at the termination of the yearly engagement, and that any interference with the discretion of the medical officer during his year's engagement was to be altogether deprecated. 5139. Chairmmt.'] If you should find it the case that, in particular parishes of a union, a large allowance of wine and porter and meat should be ordered by the medical man, and that in other parishes, the climate being the same, and the external circumstances the same, and the state of health the same, few such orders were made, should you not think it incumbent upon the board to make some observation upon it ? — 1 think they might, and would call the medical officer before them, and I have known instances in which the expression of dis- satisfaction has occurred ; but whenever that has occurred, I have also stated that any direct interference with individual cases ought to be avoided ; that a general admonition might be given, but an interference with particular cases ought to be avoided. In one case I was called upon by the board of guardians to admonish the medical officer who happened to be present at the meeting of the board. Considerable dissatisfaction had arisen on various grounds — the imperfection with which the returns had been made, and otherwise. Some admonition was conveyed by myself to the medical officer on the subject, at the request of the board, but in that case, as in every other case that I remember, the admonition has not been concerning individual cases, but concerning the general practice. 5140. Mr. Bar?iebi/.] My question refers to the general practice; as such com- plaints may have been made in your district, what has been the general rule which you have adopted in those cases ; did the board of guardians pass any re- solution that the medical men should attend the board after they had given such orders? — I think it desirable that the boards of guardians should, in those instances, request the attendance of the medical officers, and in a courteous manner enter into an explanation with them ; and that such a course would be productive of the result desired, that there would be in future no improper use of their discretion. 322. c 5>4i- If i8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. P. Kav, "Est]., 5141- If the medical man does not attend to those suggestions, what course M. D. would you pursue ; would you have an order passed, that the med'cal man should attend the board of guardians always after he had given orders of that kind ? — I 30 March 1838. ^{i\ state what I think ought to be done, and what I have advised should be done, which is this, that if the medical man and the hoard of guardians could not agree as to the course to be pursued in those cases, that would be the subject of consi- deration at the termination of the annual engagement. 5142. Then, if such is your opinion, at the termination of the engagement the medical man would not be again employed ; but what suggestion would you make to the Committee in cases where there were only two medical practitioners com- petent to undertake the care of that union ; must you not then resort to the practice of importing a medical man from some other district?- — I should hope that, by a kind and courteous intercourse between the boards of guardians and the medical officers, in almost every case that necessity might be obviated ; and if it did arise, it would be to be regarded as a misfortune. 5143. If such a case did arise, you must advertise, or some plan must be adopted, so as to have a person coming from London or from some distant district ? — I believe that there may be circumstances that justify that course, but I myself, pro- bably influenced a little by the feeling that I have towards the medical profession, would very much regret to be the instrument of adopting such a proceeding. 5144. Alust not that be the case upon the questions I have submitted to you ? — 7 Such a necessity might arise. 5145. Must you not, in those cases, have persons from a distance, if it is your wish to carry the law into effect ?— If there was an obvious disinclination on the part cf the medical officers to adopt the reasonable suggestions of the board of guardians, it must be c[uite evident to the Committee that the board of guardians must procure, under the circumstances proposed in the previous questions, some person to discharge the duty to the board of guardians. 5146. Mr. Wak/ei/.] Is there not, between the board of guardians and the me- dical officers, a written contract ? — Yes. 5147. In that are not the mutual relations of each party stated? — Yes. 5148. Is it not a usual consequence that if there be a violation of engagements on either side that there should be a dissolution of the contract altogether ?— Certainly. 5149. Do you believe that, if the boards of guardians conform to the conditions of their contracts, the medical practitioner would violate those conditions ? — On the contrary, I must say that I think the experience I have had of the con- duct of the medical officers under their contracts in Norfolk and Suffolk, shows, in the great majority of instances, the greatest disposition to co-operate with the boards of guardians, and, in matters in which there may be a difference of opinion, to yield to the suggestions of the board of guardians. 5150. Have your heard the boards of guardians, in many instances, complain of the conduct of the medical officers ? — On the contrary, the answers to questions which I proposed to the chairmen of various upions in Norfolk and Suffolk, were expressive of the greatest and most constant satisfaction with the conduct of the medical officers. 5151. Are you not aware that the conduct which is sometimes pursued towards medical officers is extremely perplexing and annoying ? — I believe that, when once a misunderstanding arises, it is very difficult to find a common ground of proceeding ; in such cases the board of guardians would have only one course to pursue, to be firm, irrespective of other considerations, in the maintenance of their authority ; it is exceedingly important and desirable to avoid any such collision ; and, I think, that by a respectful demeanor towards the medical otlicers, it may be avoided. 5152. Would it be at all improper that the medical officer, on his part, should be equally firm in seeing that the conditions of his contract are fulfilled ? — He ought to protect his own interests. 5153. Mr. Bameby^ In the contract made by the medical man there is no statement of wine and meat ? — No ; but I think it important that the board of guardians should show great respect to the opinions of the medical man on a subject on which his opinion must have greater weight than the opinion of the board ; therefore I should deprecate any thing like an absolute interference of the board with individual cases. 5154. Mr. Mites.'] Do you not think that those frequent orders of meat and wine ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 19 wine may arise from the inadequacy of the amount of medical remuneration, and j^ p j^^^^ ^sq.. from the necessity of the case requiring the giving of strong and powerful stimu- m. d. lants, which are expensive ?— The instances, in my district, m which there has ._._--- been any observation of that kind are so extremely few, that I do not think th^ I 20 March 1838. have any information which would enable me to answer the question in the athr- mative. 5155. Mr. Walda/.] In relation to the per-case system, do you not consider that where it is adopted it has a tendency to withhold from the paupers the * necessary assistance in some cases of difficulty ?— The Committee will be kind enough to remember, that in the plan which I suggested there was a provision made for the entire body of paupers in the receipt of out-door relief, that they should have, without orders, medical attendance during a certain specifie^penod, for example, half a year or a year ; and that the adoption of a system of payment per case was meant to meet only the cases of casualty, which might occur beyond the list of actual paupers. I believe that if that plan had been adopted in the first instance, great inconvenience would have been experienced, as is supposed, in the question put to me, but that its adoption now will be subject to less inconve- nience ; and I can conceive arrangements might be made in the course of another year, by which all inconvenience of that kind would be obviated, I mean arrange- ments between the labourers and the medical men" of the district, independently of parochial arrangements. 5156. Mr. Scrope.] You stated that you would recommend that the medical relief to the regular poor should be paid for by the parish to which the pauper belongs ? — ^Yes. 5157. If you extended that to the casualties, would not the difficulty to which allusion has been made in the latter questions, arising from the danger of a refusal of orders, be exaggerated, as it would become the interest of each parishioner to make as few orders as possible ?— 1 certainly had it in my mind to make that a parochial charge. i- 1 re 1 5158 Mr. Barneby.'] In the arrangements, do you pay the medical officers who attend the workhouse separately from the charge of attending the out-door paupers?— Two plans have been adopted; in one plan the medical officers who are resident in the vicinity of the workhouse attend m rotation as a part of their duty for three months in the year, or longer ; in other cases a medical officer is ap- pointed with a separate salary ; I am not prepared to state which plan is riiost ad- vantaoeous ; perhaps one is suited to one district and the other to another district. 5 1,50 Do you see any objection to this plan, that the medical officer who attends the workhouse should be paid by a salary for attending the paupers in that workhouse, and that the other medical men who attend the out-paupers should be paid so much per case ?— I do not, with the view that I have previously stated, that that payment per case should be for casualties only. 5160. Chairman.'] What, in your opinion, would be the most equitable way of distributing the charge for medical attendance among the several parishes of the union'?— 1 believe that that charge ought to bear a direct and exact relation to the number of cases attended in each particular parish ; and the reason why I proposed to the Committee the plan of separating the out-door paupers from the rest of the inhabitants, and forming them into a class, was for the purpose of procuring, first of all, the means of estimating the salary of the medical officers, and, secondly, distributing that charge for that class of cases ; I apprehend that it would be found, that after a short time had elapsed very few persons beyond those who are in the receipt of out-door relief would be applicants for or reci- pients of medical relief, and that if they were, it would be easy to add them to the permanent class; thus widows with large families, I mean those supporting thein- selves, or men with large families, supporting themselves, or any other class, might be admitted into the class of persons who were to receive medical relief in the parish, the charge being borne by the parish. Provision would thus be made for all classes in wliich ordinary necessity existed for medical attendance ; those cases which were exceptions to such a rule, and which would certainly from time to time occur, might, I think, be made the subject of a payment per case, which payment, in my opinion, ought to be borne by the particular parish to which the casual pauper belongs. The charge of paupers resident beyond the limits of their own union, of course, would be borne by the parish m which they lived. As to the case of casualty, a difficulty was suggested in the question put to me which had occurred to me before, but the means of escaping it were new ; but 222. c 2 my 20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE T P Kay Esq ^ present impression is, that the charge ought to be parochial in all cases ; at M, d'. the same time, the suggestion made in the question appears to be worthy of ■ — consideration. JO March 1838. ^\(S\. Would you meet the difficulty suggested in the question by throwing an additional responsibility upon the parish officers for refusing an order in a case of casualty ?— I think the difficulty might be met in this way, that in a case of casualty the officer might be entrusted with discretion to order, at a smaller cost, medical attendance up to the next meeting of the board of guardians, and that then payment per case should ensue, after the board of guardians had exercised its discretion in the particular case, in addition to the small payment made for the days intervening between the issue of the order by the parochial officer and the meeting of the board. 5162. The interference of the officer in that case would be similar to that in a case of sudden and urgent necessity ; he would give relief upon the same prin- ciple as any other relief, upon his view of the urgency and necessity of the case, and the board of guardians would afterwards determine upon it? — Yes. 5163. Mr. Miles.'] Should not the per-case system be matter of arrangement between the medical practitioners and the board I — Of course it would be matter of arrangement, in the same way as the salary is now a matter of arrangement betvveen the board and the medical practitioners ; and I think it very desirable that information should be obtained from all quarters, in order that the board of guardians might proceed upon such an arrangement to determine the cost per case equitably. 5164. You would also advise that an understanding should be come to between the board of guardians and the medical practitioners as to casualties? — Yes. 5165. Should not the per-case system apply both to the paupers of the parish and paupers extra-parochial? — It ought to include the non-resident poor belonging to other unions, as well as those who are resident in the parish, who belong to the union ; it appears to me inexpedient that there should be any difficulty in the case of casualty in obtaining medical relief, and therefore all poor persons belong- ing to any union would receive medical relief in the parishes iu which they resided ; and where they belonged to one parish in the union, and resided in another, the parish to which they belonged would bear the expense of the medical attendance. 5166. Mr. Barnebi/.] Will you give your opinion upon the following plan of remunerating medical officers : that one medical officer should be appointed to the workhouse, at a salary which should be charged to the establishment; that for his attendance upon all cases of out-door paupers he should be paid so much per head, which shall be charged to the parish to which the pauper belongs ; that each order shall be produced to the board of guardians at their weekly meeting, who shall determine whether the orders were properly given or not, and if they shall think that the order was improperly given, that the board of guardians shall have the power of charging it as a loan to the person who is attended, or give the power to the medical officer to recover the payment from the person whom he attends ?■ — The plan proposed would meet my views, with this exception, that it does not appear to me that it would be necessary for the board of guardians to take into their consideration any orders given to parties in receipt of out-door relief; but that all such persons might be permitted to receive medical relief without orders ; but the orders given to persons beyond the list of persons receiving out-door relief, or the list of persons for whom medical attend- ance was to be given for a half-year or a year, would, in the plan I propose, be the subject of consideration at the next meeting of the board of guardians, and they would determine whether the orders were rightly given or not ; in case the board of guardians thought that they were not rightly given, it would appear to me very expedient that the relief should be made by way of loan. 5167. You approve of the charge being upon the parish, and not upon the establishment? — Certainly ; and in case of the attendance upon the workhouse, I think it might be made an establishment charge. 51 08. Chairman.] How would you distribute the medical charge, in reference to the poor in the workhouse ?— I would make that an establishment charge, giving the medical officer a salary for the attendance upon the workhouse for the period for which it might be desirable to make the arrangement. I know that medical gentlemen resident in the unions value the attendance upon workhouses and esta- blishments of that description, as they afford opportunities of observing disease and the effect of remedies, which they cannot obtain in the houses of the poorer classes ; and ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 21 and I am quite certain that those privileges are not liable to the abuse which may j. p. Kay, Esq., be supposed by persons out of the profession, but that they rightly discharge m-d. their duties when they iiave also other objects in view. I would therefore say, that 71 T 7~^ I would not positively determine that only one medical officer should attend during the entire year; but seeing that it is deemed desirable by the profession, I would allow a medical officer to attend for part of the year, and another to attend for another part of the year, in particular cases. 5169. You would not prescribe it as a rule to be generally acted upon ? — Cer- tainly not. 5170. Ifa union had engaged a medical man for six months, and had great reason to be satisfied with his conduct, you would not wish them to change him? — My only object is not to encounter those feelings of rivalry on the part of the medical practitioners, which interfere with their kindly relations in society. 5171. Mr. Wakley.'] Do you not find that when a medical officer anxiously discharges his duty, he in a short time obtains the confidence of the paupers, and do you not think it would be an evil to remove such a man from them ? — I think the qualities of medical men resident in the union are well known to the inhabi- tants, and if there were any person whose attendance was objected to by the poor, he certainly ought not to be a person selected for the duties of the work- house. 5172. Chairman.'] Have you any statement to make with respect to the mor- tality in the workhouses? — I have a statement of the average number of each class in the workhouse, and the total number of deaths in each class, and the ages at which they died, stating the unions in the margin of the tables; I think it may be important in elucidation of some tables that I previously put in, that those tables should be comprised in the evidence of the Committee. [77?e Witness delivered in the same. — Vide Appendix, No. 10.] 5173. Mr. Fielden.] On the first day of your examination, you gave the result of an inquiry with respect to 539 labourers' families ; was that information put in ? — It was. 5174. But relative to the 600 families, which you spoke of, have you put in any statement?— I stated, in answer to that question, that I had obtained that infor- mation solely for my own purposes and my own private information, and I referred to it in justification of my opinion ; but I consider that it would be quite improper for me to put in that information, though I. have it in writing, because it relates to a great variety of particulars which concern individuals, and which I should think it extremely indelicate to communicate to the Committee ; I merely made the answer in that form in order to show the Committee that mv opinion was not formed without some inquiry, which had been satisfactory to myself personally. 5175. Then the 120 families that you have spoken of in the subsequent evi- dence are not a part of the families of about 600, to which you spoke as being resident in Hadleigh Union? — No, I do not think they are; there may be indivi- dual cases, because I remember that one part of that "return was obtained from a gentleman resident in that neighbourhood, but they have no reference generally to those 600 families. 5176. Can you give any information to the Committee of what was the occu- pation of those 600 families in Hadleigh?—! cannot; my information was not of that kind. I believe my previous answer would show that the information obtained, and upon which I supported my general opinion, was of this kind, that previously there had been con>paratively less employment, that there had been a difference in the extent of the employment afforded to the wife and to the chil- dren, and that there had been considerable dependence upon the poor-rate, whereas, at the period when the examination was made, the employment was more constant, both of the man and the wife, and the chidren, and the income from wages might fairly, therefore, be deemed to be greater; but there was no exact comparison of the absolute income in the former case, and the absolute income in the latter case. 5177. Then any information that you derived from that source does not go to show the improved state of those 600 families ? — It goes to convince me, aiid I stated it solely as one of the grounds of my opinion, that the income from wages had increased so far in such families as to make up for the loss of income from the poor-rate. 5178. You stated as the reason for it, that some branches of the families are ^22. c 3 in 22 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. P. Krii/,'Esq., in silk factories ?^ — I stated that voluntarily to the Committee, although it was not M-D- requested, from my wishing that the Committee should be acquainted with the whole evidence which had been given to me. 20 March 1838. 5179. In answer to question 4691, yon stated that you must entirely dissent from the opinion that the workhouse could be employed as a means of keeping down wages ; will you state to the Committee your reasons for that opinion ? — I believe that the amount of annual income of labourers in any district depends upon the means that exist there for the productive employment of capital upon the land, that is, upon the productive powers of the land, upon the skill of the farmers, upon the facilities that there are for obtaining a good market, and upon the industry and skill of the labouring population; and that no combination of occupiers could interfere with the results which are legitimately to be obtained from such sources, excepting there were an obstruction like that of the allowance system, occasioning local congestions of the population. 5180. Do not the able-bodied labourers show a o-reat indisposition to go into the workhouse ? — They prefer being maintained by the wages of labour. 5181. Does not that preference which they have for being maintained by the wages of labour induce them to accept lower wages rather than go into the workhouse ? — I believe that, in the long run, it cannot induce them to accept lower wages rather than go into the workhouse, any more than where it is not the custom for able-bodied men to receive relief at all, lower wages would be induced by the fact that relief to able-bodied men is not given in that district ; but, I believe that relief may be so administered, and is so administered, under the Poor Law Amendment Act, as, by stimulating the industry and fidelity of the labourers, to increase the amount of profit to the occupiers, and so to promote an increase in the income of the labourers ; if the way in which relief were given were such as to create a preference for relief over wages, the effect would be, by impairing the industry and fidelity of the labourers, that wages must fall inevita- bly ; and when I say that the workhouse cannot operate to depress wages, I have omitted at the moment to state that the effect of the workhouse in stimulating the industry and fidelity of the labourers, though it cannot directly, does remotely, increase the fund for the maintenance of the labourers. 5182. You read a letter from the Rev. George Sanby, junior, in your evidence, and I find that in the six weeks, commencing with the 1 0th of January and ending the 14th of February, there were 126 applications from able-bodied men for relief, and in the same six weeks the house was offered to 411, and there came into the house, it appears from the same statement, 58 ; can you form any opinion of what became of those who did not accept the workhouse? — Mr. Sanby's letter appears to me to contain the reply ; he states, " I can afSrm, that very generally throughout the union, the occupiers have found some sort of employment for the labourers ; in many parishes, the attention of the farmers has been actively stirred up to meet the emergency ; they first waited to hear the determination of the board, for there was a strong expectation that, from the great number of 'applications and the state of the weather, a proposal for out-door relief would be successful ; but the very ne.xt morning (and, in one parish the very same evening) after the determination of the board was made known, arrangements were instantly adopted for setting the men to work ; ' This will never do ;' was the universal cry ; ' better find the men employment in the parish than pay such a sum for their maintenance.' " 5183. Do you know the description of work the men are set to, or the wages they receive for that work ? — I cannot, in the instance referred to, convey that information to the Committee. 5184. Would those men be induced, under those circumstances, to accept lower wages rather than go into the workhouse? — In reference to that question, I must refer the Committee to what occurs in Haddingtonshire in Scotland, during the period of the snow, to which that county is much more exposed than the county of Norfolk ; and if in the county of Haddingtonshire, which is an agri- cultural county, a long-continued period of severe weather were to occur, the able-bodied labourers would obtain no relief of any kind whatsoever. I believe that nobody in Haddingtonshire contends that their not obtaining relief is a direct interference with wages, and I conceive that the offer of the workhouses under such circumstances affords to the labourer protection in his relations with his employer. 5185. But ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 23 5185. But if there was any protection in the offer of the workhouse in this ^J- ^- |^"y, Esq., case, why did not the 411 applicants accept of it instead of only 58, who went "u into it? — Because, for the remainder, the leiter conveyed to me by Mr. Sanby, 20 xMarch 1838, and which I have read to the Committee, convinces me that employment at ade- quate wages was provided. 5186. Can you give the Committee any opinion of your own of what is ade- quate wages for a man and his uife and four children?— I have already stated to the Committee, that it did not appear to me desirable that I should express an opinion upon a subject upon which individuals of the most extensive experience and the greatest skill had been found to differ exceedingly. 5187. Mr. Scrope.'] Do you not think that adequate wages are such wages as the ordinary labourers of the district have lived upon and brought up their families in decency? — I believe that adequate wages would not have that signifi- cation ; what is meant in the question would be ordinary wages. 5188. Chairman.} Have you any general suggestion to offer to the Committee, as to any improvements in the law, or in its administration? — If the Committee desire that 1 should communicate such suggestions, I would do so. 5189. Would it be more convenient to you to do it in writing?— I have no doubt that I could find leisure to do so in writing. 222. c 4 APPENDIX. 24 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE APPENDIX. Appendix, No. 1. INFORMATION derived from Clerks of Unions respecting Salaries of Medical Officers in lacorporations under Local Acts before the interference of the Commissioners, and in Unions or in Incorporations since the interference of the Commissioners. Name of Annual Ratio NAME Salary Ratio Old Incorporation Population. Salary of to of Population. of Medical to included in Union. Medical Officers. Population. NEW UNION. Officers per Ann. Population. Incorporated Hundreds of ^e. d. £. d. Mitford and Launditch - 24,134 . 5 Mitford i»; Launditch Union 27,694 500 44 Stow ... 8,308 170 4J Stow ITnion - - - 18,308 356 4J Loddon and Clavering - 14,068 160 2J Loddon & Clavering Union 14,068 210 34 / Wangford - ' East and West Flegg - 13,605 160 2| Wangford Union - 13,234 172 3 7,210 80 2i Fleggs Hundreds - 7,210 100 31 Colneis and Carlford - 10,717 168 3J Woodbridge Union 22,163 400 4} Forehoe . - - 13,838 141 n Forehoe Hundred - 13,838 175 3 Great Yarmouth (parish) 21,115 60 not 4 Great Yarmouth Parish - 21,115 120 n Tunsteadand Happing - 17,039 200 2| Tunstead and Happing^ Hundreds - - / 17,039 213 8s. 3 Bosmere and Claydon -, 12,956 250 4J Bosmere & Claydon Union 15,857 300 4i Appendix, No. 2. INFORMATION supplied chiefly by Chairmen of Unions, concerning the Districts of Medical Officers, Norfolk J Year ending March 1837. NAME NAME No. of Parishes attended by Area of each Officer's district Population of of of UNION. MEDICAL OFFICER. each Officer. in English Statute Acres. each Officer's District. Aylsham . - - Mr. Girling . . - 7 14,510 2,999 Wordingham - 6 12,700 3,602 Copeman 13 15,790 6,086 Saunders - - - 11 16,980 5,693 Hacon - - - 9 8,090 2,071 Blo6eld - Mr. T. E. Clarke - 15 29,580 4,865 Groat extent of marsh land. Peter Eade 16 17,410 4,948 - ditto - ditto. Depwade - - - ftlr. Crisp - - - 5 7,630 3,697 Gamies - . - 1 2,370 580 Webb - 1 2,960 759 Miles 7 13,780 3,929 Ward 1 1,070 272 Dr. Wliarton - - - 3 5,470 3,638 Mr. Rose 3 4,820 1,303 Mines - - - 1 1,070 617 Barton - - - 7 6,410 2,663 Tunally . . - 1 1,030 471 Howard . . - 3 8,320 2,513 Utting - 9 11,190 3,754 Docking . . - Mr. Church - 12 27,370 5,821 Wells 14 26,740 4,913 Davis 10 27,320 4,642 Downhara - - - Mr. Wales - 9 28,580 6,042 Marsh and waste. Hunter - - - I 3,950 739 Johnson - - - 12 26,460 4,059 - ditto - ditto. Dr. Paterson - - - 3 8,510 1,292 Mr. Steele 8 19,750 4,222 Erpingham Mr. Coleby - 5 9,580 4,012 Prentice - - - 8 9,890 2,673 Earle 17 18,450 6,564 Hagon - - 5 4,100 1,015 Banks - - - 14 24,510 6,751 St. Faith's Mr. Cooper - - - 8 9,600 3,157 Messrs. Taylor & Co. 6 9,450 2,517 Mr. Harris - - - 6 14,460 2,H|3 Owen - - - 4 7,980 1 ,290 Wordingham 6 6,590 1,349 Freeliridge Lynn - Mr. Joy 10 25,760 3,834 Marsh, or barren land. Whiting - - - 6 11,500 1,839 Headly - 9 22,160 3,803 - Marsh. Buller - 7 11,590 2,013 GuiltcroM - - - Mr. H. Howard 3 8,370 2,699 P.Dent - 7 15,410 4,41.? C. Morgan 4 6,i?90 1,317 T. Postle 3 8,300 1,429 Messrs. Wharton & Co. 4 7,0J0 2,015 ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. NAME of UNION. NAME of MEDICAL OFFICER. No. of Parishes attended by ciich Officer. Area of Population each Officer's yf District in English Statute Acres. each Officers' District. DISTRICTS of Medical Officers, T 2 Blofield . . - - 3 Depwade . - - - - 10 9 5 2 _ Docking . . . - Downham . - - 3 5 5 2 3 1 2 - Erpingham _ - - 5 10 2 5 1 4 St. Faith's . . - 5 Flegga . . - - 3 3 3 2 2 1 2 Forchoe . - - - 4 2 2 Freebridge Lynn 4 3 1 2 Guiltcrosa - - - Henstead . - - - 5 4 2 - 1 3 2 Loddon and Clavering 4 2 5 1 Mitford and Launditch Swaffhara - - - 6 4 11 3 2 - 2 Thetford - - - - 8 8 2 4 3 Tunstead and Happing Walsingham Wayland - - - - 3 7 4 5 9 6 3 5 3 - 2 1 Blything . - - - 12 17 11 5 5 6 -~ 1 i Bosmere and Claydon - 6 , Cosford - - - - 5 8 Hartisraere ■ - - Hoxne . - . - Mildenhall 9 3 5 4 4 2 2 1 5 Ploraeagate ... 6 11 6 8 3 6 5 2 J Risbridge - - - - 8 3 3 5 11 2 Samford . - - - Stow . . - - Sudbury - - - - Thingce - - - - Wangford _ - - 5 9 6 7 2 9 13 2 13 3 1 3 1 5 I VVoodbridge . - - 7 169 222 127 78 17 42 King's Lynn . - - Ipswich - - - - 4 3 10 24 4 6 3 21 - - (-ni nfficprs c ons . - • 169 Number of Practitioners duly qualified who are resident in the Unions - - " " " ^-2 Number of Practitioners duly qualified and resident in the Union who are Medical Officers - - 127 Number of Practitioners duly qualified and resident in the Union, who are not Bledical Officers, __ but who reside in the same Parish with one of the Medical Officers - - - - - '8 Number of Practitiouers duly qualified and resident in the Union, who are not Medical Officers, but who do not reside in the same Parish with a Medical Officer - - "■ _'.,' Number of Practitioners duly quahfied who are Medical Officers of the Union for adjacent Parishes, though resident beyond the limits of the Union -------- 42 Appendix, No. 4. IN^consc^quence of certain questions lately transmitted to the different ^°.^':<^!'^f^,S"'>"''^f ' JjtJclub the medical arrangements of the unions, I am induced to believe that a brief •''«ount of a /"f |'-=^1 ^"^ established here three quarters of a year ago may be interesting to you, IfrticuMy a. it las be n in a great degree successful and shows the practicability of the plan in a country dis re . O^^^^^^^^ 1836, several of our neighbouring clergy and gentry held a meeting at frO^'^'^^'"' ,f?' * 11 ?^f the ndSI an independent medical'club for^he benefit of the labourmg population of Co shall and * ^ «f^^™"S parishes ; and I have enclosed a copy of tlie rules and regulations passed a * «= * " «• . . .l'^^^'^^ .^. ^ .° ^nd table containing the names of some of the parishes, their population, the '™»1^" "f, /'J f.^" X to The the number of cases of sickness which have been attended, trom the commencement of the club to the present time. PARISH. Belaugh Coltishall - Horstead Lammas Wroxham - Stratton Scottow Frettenham - Hautbois - In the number of sick are included 27 eases of Midwifery. , , , , , , There are a few subscribers in Ilevingham, Sco-Iluston, Salhouse, &c. ; and the total number of persons Jhlvc Teceilel medical assistance from the club, inclucUng all the parishes, xs 263. Such a sta.c^nt 222. ^ No. of No. of Population. Subscribers. Sick. 151 14 6 868 33 64 593 34 44 275 12 13 368 44 21 218 16 25 460 34 32 269 32 31 141 10 13 3,343 229 249 28 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE cannot, I think, fail to prove the prosperous condition of an mstitution of so recent formation; and the degree of benefit derived by the free members during sickness is striking, both as to the number relieved, and also as regards the generally successful issue of the cases, attributable probably to the um-estricted and early application for medical advice ; I am sorry to say, that in tlie parish of Frettenliam some dissatisfaction has arisen, in consequence of one or two families having received, during tlie influenza, notes for the at- tendance of tlie parisli doctor, they being at the time not on the pauper list, but in the receipt of weekly wa" es ; and I have heard that the number of subscribers will in consequence be much reduced at the ensuing quarter. Of course, if a man with a wife and family earning perhaps Qs. a week, finds that he can have a note from a relieving officer for medical assistance, it is scarcely to bo expected that he will pay to a club ,• and he cannot be blamed for not doing so. To draw a Ihie between those who are entitled to the services of the district sui-geon, and those who are to provide themselves with meiUcal assistance, is a point that seems attended with great difficulty, but it is one of great importance as regards the success of the medical club system ; I should imagine that the experience already possessed by the boards of guardians since the working of the new Act, would enable them pretty nearly to decide individually who are and who are not proper objects for parochial medical relief in their several unions, and that, generally speaking, where clubs are in existence, and tlie relieving officers sufficiently careful, they can act determinately in the matter ; but even then a difficulty remains, which does not seem to be so easy of removal ; a man in the receipt of regular weekly wages subscribes to a medical club for himself and family ; if his wife or his children are Hi, he applies without delay to the surgeon, procures advice and medicmcs, and presei-ves his independence ; but should he himself happen to be the sick person, how are his wife and children to be maintained during liis illness'^ — his earnings ai'e stopped, he has most probably saved nothing, and although he has provided himself with medical assistance, he must for the sake of liis family become a pauper, and apply to his parish for relief ; and if for one form of rehcf why not for another ? This case has happened to me several times, and I have been obliged to certify the illness of members of our club, in order to pro- cure them relief from the board. Indeed in the new form for the weekly medical returns in the Aylsham Union, there is a column headed, " If belonging to any medical club ;" this is an objection fi'equently brought forward against the establishment of independent medical cluhs, and if a remedy could be found, there is no doubt but the result would be beneficial. Could the difficulty be met by any plan of affording temporary relief by loan ? For the success of independent medical clubs two things seem to be of primary importance. 1. That the free subscriptions be not on too low a scale; this would be "substituting one form of assistance for another, and thus disguising the dependence of the poor ;" besi', the 6tli of April, the Cth of July, and the I'lth of October. (Except in Frettenham and Hautbois, all the payments are quarterly.) Eleventh * At tfic next <|naitcr)y ineetiBg I intend to piopose reducing the last-mentioned sum to J ». per quai tcr lor tlie benefit of large families. — M. C. I or - 1 or _ i^ or 6 2 or 9 n or 6 2 or 9 2-5 or 2 3 ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. 29 Eleventh. That any free member in arrcar more than one month, sliall forfeit all claim to the benefit of this society. i. . . Twelfth. — That the honorary fund be employed for the purpose of defraying the expenses of the mstitu- tion, exclusive of medicines and attendance ; but, shniild any surplus arise, that it be applied for the benefit of the free members in any way tlic committee may determine ; (out of this fund the surgeons are allowed to provide wine, brotli, &c. for patients in cases of urgent necessity.) Thirteentli.— Tluit sick members shall famish their own bottles ; and when able sliall attend on the medical man, before ten m the monung, who will visit them at their owni houses when they are imablu to attend. Fourteenth. — That the clergy and gentry be requested to receive the subscriptions of the free members, and to pay them, with the names of the subscribers, into the hands of the secretary, by wliom it is paid over to the surgeons. Fifteenth.— That the committee consist of the members present, and any other honorary members wlio may be willing to assist. Sixteenth.— Tliat there be a meeting of the committee on the Thursday previous to each of tlie above- named quart er-davs, at tlie White Horse, Coltishall, at eleven o'clock, a.m. Seventeenth.— That Mr. Hawes be requested to be the treasurer. Eighteenth. — That Messrs. Taylor & Copeman be appointed surgeons to this medical club. Nineteenth. Tliat ttie honorary subscriptions commence from the Gth of July, and the quarterly subscrip- tions of the free members from the same date. Twentieth. That Alfred Bacon be appointed secretary to this society, with a salary of 1 /. per W "O O to , • CO -^ to ^ tjl O^ t^ « CI CI CO IM tM CJ !- t) '^ ,* brCL > rt 5J u ■ bo to I — I CI ^ to ^ ■<* C) CI ^ o ■- a> i^ o — s,; c» -f CI Tji ci 'f =• c _ '^ a J^ cj rj ^ T- K a if ^ be o g - ■Q M -^ I 1? l^ »0 *0 ! (N CO lO »ft tC »0 , ■^ •O — lO C I— ^ I ,^ r^ ^ iC W t^ W tC O — "J^ — CO tj o -H in CO CI ^ tJ ^m -^ '^ ^ ■•J' ^ o z X c a> a. a. -a' I CO 1 II I a I to I I I I , : O CD O O C O S^ ^ CO -^ to to to «t< t -^ CO O 1-0 I CO I CO to ^ CO ■* I — CO -" ^ C Ol CI -H CO t^ . lO CO o to tO o C^ '* o « 00 c: CI s 'i •a CO -e CO « I III ^ 1^ -^ I CI CO »« «« O ro 00 r* c» -H 00 to CO 00 ^ '.O o u P;^ 1. k-> k- h- H >-• P ri (S <3 rt ra rt ■^ S S («5 *^ IS ^ o o o o o o 6 ^ ^^ e^ a. bo •J o ■od., -. . O CO =« s s; CO CO "e I ■* ^ to CO ■ Sui ■o -f ■* ^ 0> CO gtoto •o I 1 •^ I I s ^ S " IS ^ lO o >« • •*■*■* « p. ^ T3 &< =;=« < Ui -^ lO CO ,-< •J <; .rf-'to H Tf -* CO t- t« CO CI to b d 1 ^1 a 13 •a oi 1 u^ --s 1i i -^ s . 1^ (N w d o « M ^^Z •a .2 to -* S ^ i> be ^ «! O •^ Tj" »-. (N r- o M «; ■-J' u5 Ci "* »^ I ■« CD 1 I I I t ^ r- O O O O O ;^ r- O O O O O ^ >0 (M Ol CO CO CO •^ ^M r* I— . Oi o o • O 00 — t>- 00 t^ -t O Oi 00 CO ci (U^ O O CD CD O -^ CT « »-■ p-i CT (M -y I I I I I I ^* I I t I II tJ to o o o o o ^^ lO o *^ t^ t^ r- u a O ■^ I^ J^. -H tJ< CO CO fc^ CO »0 ■^ CO ^ CO , 00 .-1 p- ^ > > > > o r, O o ZZa?r;K^ o o s O !^ H O „ fM C^ 3D a) T) '■' "* *■" > > > u > > o o o o o o ON THE POOR LAW AMENDiMENT ACT. 31 Appendix, No. 10. FOR QUARTER ENDING 30th JUNE 1837. Average Number of eacb Class in Workhouse, per Week. a I* ^ s B a o "^ AGES OF INMATES WHO DIED. NAME of CLASS. 1 n a 0.1 I o CO i Ci a o 1 6 § n K d CO ■3 rt O a S 1 d g o CO 1 d 1 s 1 d CD s o a 1 d o CO « 6 00 13 i o a if 1 g a a c 00 i n d o a o o 1 Men. Able-bodied* Temporarily disabled - Old and iufirm - Youths. From 9 to 16 years of age Boys. From 2 to 9 Women. Able-bodied Temporarily disabled - Old and infirm - Girls. From 9 to 16 „ 2to9 - Infants 60 20 177 125 139 170 23 95 137 151 57 1^ 10 3 }' 7 2 11 11 2 3 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 3 1 4 1 3 4 7 I 1 Norfolk : including Unions of Aylshara, Blufield» Depwade, Docking, Er- pingham, St. Faith's, FreebridgeLy nil, Guilt- cross, King's Lynn, Loddon and Clavering, IMitford and Laun- ditch, Swaffhara,TheU ford, and Wayland. Total of Norfolk - 1,174 42 11 2 3 1 3 2 » 2 4 5 Men. Able-bodied Temporarily disabled - Old and infirm - Youths. From 9 to 16 years of age BOTS. From 2 to 9 Women. Able-bodied Temporarily disabled - Old and infirm - Girls. From 9 to 1ft - - 84 33 246 195 171 196 32 209 148 140 96 13 1 }' 15 2 1 15 15 1 1 2 2 o 2 1 2 4 4 5 6 6 1 Suffolk : including the Uniona of Blytbing, Bosm/re and Claydon, Cosford, Hartismere, Hoxne, Mildenhall, Plomes- gate, Risbridge, Stow, Thingoe, Wangford, and Woodbridgti. Total of Suffolk - 1,550 60 15 1 3 2 4 1 6 - 6 9 12 1 Totals of Norfolk"! and Suffolk -/ 102 26 3 6 3 7 3 7 2 10 14 19 2 29 45 837. FOI I QUARTER ENDING 30th SEPTEMBER 1 Men. Able-bodied Temporarily disabled - Old and infirm - Youths. From 9 to 16 Boys. From 2 to 9 Women. Able-bodied Temporarily disabled - Old and infirm - Girls. From 9 to 16 - „ 2 to 9 Infants 21 31 267 144 182 150 63 176 144 166 78 13 1 I 10 1 7 7 1 1 1 1 - 1 2 - 1 4 1 2 5 2 3 6 4 Norfolk : including the Unioni of Aylsham, Bloficdd, Depwadf, Docking, Er- pingham, St. Faith's, FrecbridgeLynn, G viilt- cross, Henstead, King's Lynn, Loddon and Clavering, IVIitford and Launditch, Swaffham, Thetfoi'- 17 19 4 2 3 4S QUA RTER ENDING 31st DECEMBER 1837. Men. Able bodied Temporarily disabled - Old and infirm - Youths. From 9 to 16 Boys. From 2 to 9 Women. Able-bodied Temporarily disabled - Old and infirm - Girls. From 9 to 16 - „ 2 to 9 Infants 60 46 304 178 232 198 82 187 1S6 213 109 }■' 16 1 o 1 -^ 10 I 7 2 1 1 1 2 I 1 1 _ 3 2 5 4 7 3 1 - Norfolk : including tbe Unions of Aylsiiam, Blofield, Depwade, Docking, Er- piugham, St. Faith's, Freebridge Lynn, G iiilt- crGSs, Henstead, King's Lynn, Loddon ari*t' Ciaveiiij^iiljtfnrjkud L a u n d i r^^jJIljirfU^'^ m , porated. niifldreljs ^pf" Fleggs,' Forehoe, antf Tunstcad and Hap- ping. Total of Norfolk - 1,793 43 7 3 1 1 2 2 - 1 5 9 10 2 Men. Able-bodied Temporarily disabled - Old and infirm - Youths. From 9 to 16 Boys. From 2 to 9 Women. Able-bodied Temporarily disabled - Old and infirm - Girls. From 9 to 16 - „ 2 to 9 Infants - 67 37 373 249 217 2.'58 57 302 177 167 106 21 2 2 }• 6 2 9 9 2 o 2 1 1 2 1 - 2 3 1 1 3 2 10 8 4 — J Suffolk : Including all the Unions, and the in- corporated hundred of Samford. Total of Suffolk - 2,010 54 9 4 2 2 3 - 3 2 5 10 12 - Totals of Norfolk^ and Suffolk -/ ■ - 9? 16 7 23 3 3 5 2 5 3 10 19 22 2 53 EIGHTEENTH REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT; WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed, 21 March 1838. 225. L " ] Luna, 2'° die Novembris, 1837. i Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the Administration of the Rehef of the Poor, under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act. Ordered, That the Committee consist of Twenty-one Members : Lord John Russell. Mr. Ward. Mr. Fazakerley. Lord Viscount Howick. Mr. Richard Walker. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Poulett Scrope. Mr. Villiers. Mr. Baines. Mr. Miles (Somerset). Mr. Boiling. Mr. Law Hodges. Mr. Lister. Mr. Chichester. Sir Thomas Fremantle. Mr. Slaney. Mr. Bameby. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Liddell. Mr. John Fielden Mr. Estcourt (Devizes). Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers and Records. Ordered, That Five be the Quorum of the Committee. Jovis, 8° die Februarii, 1838. Ordered, That power be given to the Committee to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House. THE REPORT p. iii MINUTES OF EVIDENCE - - p. 1 [ iii ] . REPORT. THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into tlie Administration of the Relief of the Poou under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act; and who were empowered to report the Minutes of Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House ; — HAVE taken some furtlier Evidence, which they have agreed to report to The House. 21 Mcn-ch 1838. 225. [ iv ] «> WITNESS. Mr. Joseph Elliso?i. [ 1 ] MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Mercurii, 21' die Martii, 1838. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Baines. Mr. Barneby. Mr. Boiling. Mr. Chichester. Mr. Estcourt. Mr. Fielden. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Hodges. Lord Howick. Mr. Liddell. Mr. Miles. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Walker. MR FAZAKERLEY, jn thk Chaie. Mr. Joseph Ellison, called in ; and Examined. 5190. Mr. Baines.] WHERE do you reside? — In the township of Goniersall, Mr. Joseph Elluun. in the West Riding of the county of York. — 5191. Is that township in union under the new Poor Law.? — It is. ^^ March 1838, 5192. In what union ? — The Dewsbury Union. 5103. Chairman.] It is in union for registration purposes r — Yes. ,5194. Is it in union for the purpose of the administration of relief? — We have not begun yet, but we are expecting daily to be called upon to administer relief. 5195. But you have not yet received orders for the administration of relief? — Not yet, but we have had intimation that we shall very shortly, from Mr. Power, who is residing in Leeds. 5196. Mr. Baines.] Have you had experience in the management of parochial affairs? — I have been a member of the select vestry of our township for the last 10 or 12 years. 5197. How has that system worked in your township? — Very well; it is impos- sible that any law could work better, I think myself. 5198. To what amount, at present, in the pound is the property assessed there, for the relief of the poor? — Tlie rate lor the last year would amount to exactly \s. in the pound, supposing you take the property at the rack-rent, upon buildings, and 2^. in the pound upon land. A house that is worth 20/. a year would pay 20s. to the poor-rate, and land that is worth 20/. a year would pay 40,?. It is taken upon a valuation that occured nearly 30 years ago ; but we have ordered a fresh one, and it is now nearly completed. 5199. Wiien you first began to take an interest in parochial afi'airs, what was the calculation in the pound of the poor-rate upon the property that you say now is assessed at \s. and at 2.S-. in the pound? — I should say that 20 years ago, which is as far back as I can recollect any thing about parochial matters, the rate averaged then about 5.?. in the pound. 5200. Is that upon houses or upon land ? —I should say upon houses. 5201. Then, 20 years ago the houses in your township, that were of the value of 30/. a year paid 5/., whereas now they only pay 1/. ? — Just so. 5202. To what do you attribute the very material change that has taken place? — Entirely to the Select Vestry Act. 5203. Will you explain rather more distinctly the difference in the two systems under which the 5/. a year was required, and the i/. ? — Before the Select Vestry Act was adopted by our township we had two fresh overseers yearly, and we had also what we call a standing overseer; now, the overseers were taken from the trading class, and all that they cared about was to get rid of tiie office as soon as they possibly could, and the whole of the work was thrown upon the standing overseer, and there was no check whatever upon him ; but now the select vestry manage the matters themselves; we have still a standing overseer, and we have overseers appointed, but they are entirely under the control of the 22,'i. A select 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. Joitph Ellison, select vestry ; our township contains a population of 6,500 souls, which we have . returned to the Poor Law Commissioners, and we have 18 select vestrymen ; we 21 March 1838. divide the 18 into sections of six, and we meet every alternate Monday at the workhouse, for the purpose of paying the poor and transacting the general parochial business of the township ; and all this is done entirely under the control of the select vestry ; the overseers pay tlie poor, but they pay them, as I said before, under the control of the vestry. 5204. Then a saving has actually taken place in vour township, by judicious management, to the amount of 500/. per cent. ? — The rates have been reduced, as I before stated, from 55., taking the rack-rent, down to \s. within the last 20 years, and the last year's amount paid to the poor was less than has been paid in our township for the last 40 years ; 1 have looked over the books, and that I can state from my owti knowledge. 5205. Are you a guardian under the new Poor Law? — I am. 5206. That law has not yet come into operation in the Dewsbury Union, for the purpose of administering relief to the poor? — No, it has not. 5207. What is the amount of the population in the Dewsbury Union ? — I be- lieve very nearly 100,000; I should say rather under. 5208. From what you have seen of the administration of the poor under the old Poor haw, do you think it will be advantageous to have unions to so large an extent as that ? — No, I do not. 5209. Over how large a space does that union extend ? — I should say, perhaps, seven miles by seven ; I reside six miles from Dewsbury myself ; I am a guardian; I have to travel that distance when I go ; I do not complain of the distance, but of the large amount of population in the union. 5210. You have not yourself experience under the administration of the new Poor Law, and therefore you only speak as relates to the experience which you have had in the management of those select vestries ? — Exactly so. 5211. Have you any observations to make as to the mode of administering relief advantageously in the manufacturing districts under the new Poor Law ? — • I think that the unions ought to be a great deal less than those which have been already set out by Mr. Power ; if you take Dewsbury, which is our union, and Bradford, and Huddersfield and Barnsley, you have an average population of upwards of 100,000 souls for each union, and I say that that is a great deal too many; I will give the Committee my reasons for saying .so, if they wish to have them. 5212. Assign your reasons ? — For the last 12 months I have taken particular notice how many fresh applications for rehef we have had per week, and I think you may take ours as a fair specimen of all the rest ; it is about midway between Leeds, Halifax, Huddersfield and Bradford ; it is as near the centre as possible of the manufacturing district ; there I have been born, and there I have lived all my life; I have taken particular notice for the last 12 months as to the number of fresh applications we have had per week, and, as near as I can make out, there is about one fresh applicant for every 1,000 of the population ; so that, where a union contains a population of 100,000 souls, you will have about 100 fresh applicants weekly ; now this is in ordinary times, when the trade is pretty good, and when all the work-people with us are pretty well employed ; but in bad times, when a great number of the working classes are out of emplovment, I should say you will have five times that amount, or sometimes ten times that amount ; I have seen that since I have been a select vestry-man, and in ordinary times you will have to go through weekly 100 fresh applications ; I say that is a good deal for the guardians to do ; if you do not sift them properly, and examine into them very often, you will refuse deserving cases, and perhaps you will relieve cases that ought not to be relieved ; this you will have to do weekly in ordinary times, but when times are bad, when there is a stagnation in trade, you will have to inquire into perhaps 500 fresh applications, or even i,ooo. Now, I say, you cannot find any body of guar- dians in manufacturing districts that will ever do this, because it would take, not one day, but two or three clays every week ; and you cannot suppose that any man in trade would sacrifice three days a week for the purpose of managing parochial matters ; the thing is out of the question, .5213. Mr. Barncby.'] Are you aware that under the new Poor Law, it is the duty of the relieving officer to inquire into the particular cases of persons who apply for relief before the cases come before the board of guardians ? — Quite so. 5214. Would not that diminish the duty of the board of guardians, as compared with ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 3 with the way in which it is transacted at your select vestry ? — Only a little; the Mr. Joteph ElUsoi relieving officer will have to report to the board, and they will have to decide for the future ; he does it only for the week, and the decision rests wiih them. ^^ March 1838. 5215, But the inquiry is made by the relieving otlicer? — It will relieve their duties a little ; but it will still leave more to do than the board of guardians can Sfet throush, in my opniion. 5:^16. Mr. BainesJ] You .say that, in times of distress, in some districts there would be as many applicants as 500 or 1,000 ; and resting upon that fact, you say that it would be impossible to make a proper investigation into the cases by any board of guardians ? — I do say so. 5217. And your opinion, therefore, is, that it would be desirable to have the unions smaller tlian it is at present proposed to make them ? — Most certainly; tliey will stick fast as thev arc, I have no doubt of it. 5218. Then you think boards of guardians, formed upon the large principle upon which those are forn)ed, inapplicable to the state of distress in the manufac- turing districts subject to those fluctuations which they necessarily are subject to ? —I do. 5219. Mr. Liddell.] Have you heard of any projiosition for paying the respec- tive guardians ? — No. 5220. Mr. Baincs.] In the nnion that has been formed at Dewsbury has there not been some difference of opinion existing among the guardians as to the pro- bable operation of the law, when it comes into exercise, as to the size of the unions? • — No, not as to the size. 5221. Has there been any difference of opinion upon any point? — Yes. 5222. As to what? — As to the expediency of proceeding further with the Act; I will, if the Committee wish it, read the resolution which was proposed to the guardians, and state the result of it. 5223. Will you do so? — A great many of the guardians of this union are of opinion that we had better proceed no further with the Act, and I am of that opinion myself, therefore I placed a notice upon the book to the following effect, to be taken into consideration at the next meeting of the guardians : — " The guardians of the poor for the Dewsbury Union having so far complied with the requirements of the new Poor Law Amendment Act as is needful for the working of the Marriage and Registration Acts, and having given instructions for fresh surveys and valuations of such townships comprised within the union as require it, are of opinion that it is neither expedient nor necessary to carry the Amend- ment Act into further effect in this union: — 1. Because no abuse in the manage- ment of the poor, or in the administration of the old law, doth exist, calling for the abandonment of it; 2. Because an immense majority of the rated inhabitants are opposed to the change ; 3. Because the great bulk of the labouring population residing within this union are engaged in manufacturing pursuits, and in time of severe distress, arising from want of employment in consequence of the stagnation in trade, it will be exceedingly difficult, if not altogether impracticable, to carry the provisions of the Act into effect in the district forming the Dewsbury Union, as the amount of pauperism varies with the demand for labour, which latter is entirely regulated by the state of trade ;" that was the motion which I placed upon the journals. 5224. What was the result of that motion ?— -After I had done this I never mentioned the subject afterwards to any guardian whatever ; but the ex-officio guardians of that union, I know, took particular pains to bring as many guar- dians to the meeting as possible, and the result was that 16 guardians met, and when they came to divide upon it, eight voted for this proposition and seven voted against it, but the chairman, who had never before voted since the union was formed, then voted against it, which made us eight and eight, and in order to turn the scale he gave the casting vote. 5225. Mr. Estcoia't.] In favour of the law? — Merely in favour of not passing this resolution ; the guardians all agree that the union is a great deal loo large, and that to make the law work well it ought to be much less ; the reason that they assigned for not agreeing to this resolution was, " We are sure to have the law, therefore we think it is not expedient to pass the resolution, but let us do all in our power to modity it, and make it work as well as possible." After I had proposed this they requested that I would still continue to act, and I told them I would, and that if we are to have the law, I would endeavour to extract as much good from it as possible. 5226. Mr. Baines.'\ Is that the determination of the other guardians ? — No ; I 225. A 2 am 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. Juseph EUison, ani sorry to say that nearly all the seven have declared their intention of not acting 21 March 1838. 5227. Mr. Bamebi/.] What number of guardians have you, including ex-officio guardians? — Twenty-four or twenty-six. 5228. Mr. LiddelLI Did I understand you rightly when you stated that, although your resolution was negatived by a majority of one, the chairman giving two votes, yet the whole board of guardians expressed their concurrence in your opinion, that the union was too large for practical operation ? — If I say the whole, I am going, perhaps, too far, but if I say a large majority, I ani quite right ; in fact, they all concur in that opinion in the West Riding of Yorkshire, that the unions will be too large, and that they will be unmanageable ; that is almost the universal opinion. 5229. Unmanageable from the great extent of the population that the union contains? — Yes, and from the number of fresh applications you will have weekly ; they cannot be sifted or gone into. 5230. Mr. Baniebi/,] You are aware that the chairman has, in all cases, a right to vote, and also to give a casting vote ? — I am. 5231. Mr. Fielden.] You stated that there v/ere 16 guardians present at the meeting you spoke of, and in the whole you state that there are 24 or 26 ; do you know what were the opinions of the guardians who did not attend? — Yes, I do ; I happen to know what the opinions of the absent guardians were ; I believe, if they had been present, they would all have voted for my proposition ; they were in favour of it. 5232. Had all the guardians, then, been present, you have reason to believe that the majority of those guardians would have voted for your proposition ? — I have every reason to believe that the majority would. 5233. Mr. Baines.] Do you think it would tend to facilitate the introduction of the new system into your district, by diminishing the size of the unions, both as to distance and as to number? — As to number, certainly; I understand vou in reference to the population ; the distance is not very material ; as it is now I am the farthest of any guardian in the union from Dewsbury ; to men of business the time is very important, and the whole of the guardians with us, or nearly so, are men that are engaged in business. 5234. Has there not been a good deal of opposition made to the introduction of the Poor Law in your neighbourhood? — There has been no active, no physical, op- position, not in our union ; certainly the introduction of the law is very unpopular. 5235. Was there not a very large meeting held in your neighbourhood last Easter, upon that subject? — Yes, there was. 5236. By how many people might that meeting be attended? — If I must give my opinion, I should say from 50,000 to 70,000 ; it was a very large meeting. 5237. What was the general nature of the resolutions passed at that meeting ? ■ — I did not attend the meeting myself, and I can only speak to the general pur- port of the meeting; I looked at the meeting, at a distance of about two miles, through a glass from a hill, and I could see that there was an immense multitude ; but I went no nearer. ,5238. What was the general purport of the resolutions passed at that meeting? — To petition for the repeal of the new Poor Law altogether. 5239. Were the persons who took a leading part in that meeting persons con- nected with the neighbourhood, or were they persons from a distance? — They were chiefly persons from a distance. 5240. Were there any respectable people connected with the neighbourliood, that took any part in it ? — No, not beyond mere curiosity. 5241. Then it was not a meeting composed of the inhabitants of the neighbour- hood, interested in preventing the adoption of the Poor Law, but it was rather a meeting of persons brought from a distance upon that subject ? — No, the great bulk of the meeting was not brought from a distance; but I should say, that per- haps nine-tenths of the people that were there went out of curiosity to see what we should call the lions ; the day was a very tine one, and it was a holiday. .5242. Were the lions resident in the neighbourhood, or were they from a dis- tance? — Pretty nearly all foreigners ; there was Mr. Oastler there, from Hudders- field ; and there was a clergyman from my immediate neighbourhood, of the name of Bull. Mr. Bull, when he saw the parties upon the hustings, and when he knew the resolutions which they intended to submit, declined appearing upon the hust- ings at all. 5243. Mr. luelden.] At the meeting which you have alluded to, you say the great bulk were not from a distance ? — I do. 5244. Then ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 5 5244. Then the great body of the meeting were persons residing within a short Mr. Joseph Ellison. distance of the spot where the meeting was held? — Within eight or ten miles. 524,5. Do j'ou recollect how the meeting was called, what advertisement was 21 March 1838. put up ? — I dare say I have seen it, but I do not remember the particulars. 524G. Was it a meeting of the freeholders, rate-payers, and inhabitants of the West Riding of the county of York ? — I believe it professed to be ; I think it was called in that way. 5247. The West Riding of the county of York extends a great deal farther than ten miles from the spot wherQ the meeting was held ? — Yes ; but the manufactur- ing district does not. 5248. Have you not reason to knovv that at that meeting there was a great assemblage from all the manufacturing towns within eight or ten miles of that spot? — No, I do not know that I have ; I may have heard so, but if 1 have I have for- gotten ; the thing did not interest me much at the time. 5249. When you speak of strangers that were there, how many do you suppose there were of those strangers present at that meeting ? — I cannot answer that 'question ; that there were both freeholders and rate-payers I have no doubt, and that there was one clergyman ; but the great bulk of the meeting, I should say nineteen-twentieth's, were composed of the labouring classes, and perhaps the reniainino; twentieth went out of curiosity. .5250. Are not all the labouring class rate-payers? — Those that are house- keepers. 5251. And a great proportion are housekeepers, are they not ? — A great propor- tion are not ; for instance, take a married man, with a family of six or seven children, the head of the family will pay the rates, and the children that are grown up, that live with him, do not pay the rates, so that I will engage to say that you will liave a much larger proportion that do not pay the rates than do pay the rates. 5252. Is it the prevailing practice, that all persons occupying a house in that neighbourl)ood pay rates ? — In our township it is. 5253. All persons occupying land pay rates? — Undoubtedly. .5254. Then, taking a distance of ten miles from the spot where tiie meeting was held, was not there a large assemblage of persons that were directly interested in the subject for which the meeting was called, that of obtaining the repeal of the Poor Law ? — The working classes generally felt interested in the meeting, but a great proportion of the meeting were females ; they do not pay rates, except women that occupy houses themselves. 52;i5. What do you mean by a great proportion ; do you mean to say that there were more females than men in the meeting? — I was told so ; and in looking at it I could see a vast number of women; ail the girls in the country were there; there were not less than from 20 to 30 bands of music, and they attract a large concourse of people, especially young men and young women ; and there was an immense concourse of young men and young women at that meeting. 5256. Were there at that meeting a great number of respectable inhabitants of the district, occupiers of land and occupiers of houses? — There were some; I cannot tell the number that went feut of curiosity ; several of my friends and relations went, and that was the prevailing feeling among the respectable classes; they went to see the show, and those wonderful men that were come to make wonderful speeches. 5257. At all out-door meetings held in the manufacturing districts, is it not the custom for females to attend as well as males ? — There are few public meetings in the West Riding, but females do attend, but not always in such large numbers as did attend at this meeting. 5258. You were not nearer to the spot than two miles, and you made your observations through a glass? — I did ; I could hear the music very distinctiv, and I could hear the shouting. 5259. Do you think that persons at the spot at the time would have a better opportunity of judging of the probable number than you would where you stood ? — Undoubtedly ; mine was a random guess. 5260. Have you not heard of tiie number being estimated much higher than 70,000 or 80,000 who attended tliat meeting? — Yes, and much lower also. 5261. What is the lowest estimate you have heard ? — About 40,000. 5262. What was the highest estimate you have heard? — I have heard people say there were 200,000, some even more than that, Lait people who were no judges of numbers. --5- A 3 5263. Any 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr Joseph Ellison. 5263. Any persons being upon the spot would have an opportunity of ascer- .1 . taining more correctly what their numbers were, and they could not think that 21 March 1838. 40,000 would be 200,000, or 200,000 as low as 40.000? — A great number of people can form no correct idea of a congregated number. 5264. It is a large piece of common ground on which this was held, is it not ? — Yes, I know the ground well. 5265. And it is very difficult to judge of the number to anv body on the spot? — Yes, for the meeting was very much scattered over the common, and the reason was, as stated to me by my nephew, that if you endeavoured to get near the hustings, you were ahnost squeezed to death ; therefore, the day being very fine, and the bands being on the common, the meeting was very much spread out ; there were booths upon the common, selling refreshments, and it was altogether a holiday ; those that could not hear, they thought it no use being squeezed and pressed together upon a very hot day, therefore they drew back to where the music was playing. 526b. Does it come within your knowledge that there were at that meeting men of all parties in politics who attended? — I believe there were. 5267. Do yoil believe that there were men of all parties that went there for the purpose of obtaining what was the object of the meeting, to petition the House of Commons for a repeal of the Poor Law Amendment Act? — I believe they went mainly for the motive I have before stated, curiosity ; I know that there were Tories there, and I know that there were Whigs there, and I know that there v\ere Radicals there ; this I know of my own knowledge. 5268. Do you know that there were a great number of respectable people there of all those parties r — There were some, and perhaps I shall not say too far, if I say a considerable number; curiosity was a great deal excited. 5269. Do you know the reason why Mr. Bull, whom you have mentioned, did not go to the hustings upon that occasion ? — I have stated the reason already, as far as I know it, that he did not agree with the resolutions which were to be pro- posed. I understood that they were of too violent a character for him, and that there was some disagreement amongst the speakers themselves ; they could not exactly agree as to wiiat they would propose. 5270. What were the resolutions that you are now referring to? — I cannot tell ; I did not expect to be examined upon this at all, but I am speaking merely from memory; 1 will state every thing as far as I can recollect. 5271. Are you aware that at that meeting there were a number of individuals who wished to bring forward resolutions of a character ditferent from that for which the meeting was called, and altogether foreign to it? — I think that I have heard that there was some difference of opinion, but 1 cannot state what the difference was. 5272. Were there a number of individuals there who wished the meeting to entertain the questions of universal suffrage, annual parliaments, and vote by ballot ? — I cannot speak to that positively ; as I before stated, I did not take much interest in the meeting myself; I was not nearer than two miles, and being a meeting that soon died away, like all other nine-days' wonders, I have forgotten the prominent parts of it ; such parts as I can recollect I will state. 5273. Y^ou are aware that the meeting was not advertised for the purpo.se of discussing any other question but petitioning Parliament for the repeal of the Poor Law Amendment Act ? — I cannot speak to the specific object for which the meet- ing was called, never intending to attend it myself. ,5274. Are you acquainted with Mr. Bull at all ? — Slightly; I have heard him preach repeatedly, and speak. 527.5. Has he ever told yon what were his reasons wtiy he did not go on the hustings? — No; he told my relative, at whose house he called, as he returned from the meeting, and that relative told me ; and of the correctness of what I have stated, I feel as confident as if Mr. Bull had told me himself. 5276. What you have stated is, that he was dissatisfied with some of the reso- lutions? — Yes; and I think, also, with some of the parties on the hustings; he did not hke to be seen amongst them. 5277. Has Mr. Bull told you that he was dissatisfied with the calling of the meeting for the purpose of ])etitioning Parliament for the repeal of the Poor Law Amendment Act? — I cannot speak to that. 5278. Do not you think that Mr. Bull has taken considerable pains to assist in getting up petitions for the repeal of that Act ? — I understand that he has. 5279. Were not his reasons for absenting liimself from the platform, because an attempt ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 7 attemnt at diversion was made to obtain the passing of resolutions for another Mr. Jo^ph Ellison. object than that for which the meeting was called ?-I can state no more upon that ^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^ siibicct than I have already stated. . ,080 I have gathered, from what you have said, that there is a strong feeling prevailing in the West Riding against the introduction of this new Poor Law ." ~vS'i What are the objections generally stated to the introduction of that law ? -The objections are, that they think it will work worse for them, both the rate- uavers and the paupers, than the old law. .,,,,. r ^%^o Are they generally, in the West Riding of Yorkshn-e as far as you are acquainted with them, satisfied with the working of the old law ?- Very ge- "^'^2S"^ Do the people there think that they are competent to manage their paro- chial affairs in as good a manner as they can be managed, justice being done both to the rate-payers and the poor r-Undoubtedly, they do thuik so _ .084 Do they think that, if they come under the operation of this new law, the rate; instead of being diminished, will be augmented ?-They think that they will be aucrmented, and I think so, speaking of our own township and that district. .08^^ Is the opinion, then, of the people in the ^V est Riding, that no saving can be effected by the introduction of the new law, without doing injustice to the noor?— Thatisthe opinion in the neighbourhood where 1 reside ; indeed, it is impossible that vou can reduce the rates lower than we have done without givmg over to afford relief at all ; we have done the thing as fine as it can be done. ^086 You are speaking of the operation of the old law in Dewsbury?— 1 am soeakincT of the township where I reside ; I wish to confine iny observa- tions to what I have experienced myself, and know from my own experience and ^"*'^28^7. That is Gomersall ?— Yes ; the amount paid to the poor in the year ending 18^7 was less than has been paid to the poor for the last 40 years, and this, too, in the face of a very rapidly increasing population, and also a great increase in rateable property in the shape of new erections. c -a ^^uu <;o88 Was not the last year, of which you are speaking, a season of considerable commercial embarrassment in your township ?-The trade was not so good as 1 have known it. . i. ; tu^^o 5289. Was there any deficiency of employment amongst the poor .^— 1 here was, certainly. . . « t v, 1^ o„„ ,^,^t . 5290. Was there any reduction of wages during that period .—I should say not, we do not do that unless we cannot get on without it. f;2ui. But there was a scarcity of work? — There was. t.Q- Notwithstanding that scarcity of work, your poor-rates have been so fow as i"..,"upon the rack-rent, for buildings, and 25. for lands ?- Yes in the last year. ';2q':i That being the case, you think you have good reason to beheve that you could not have the law more satisfactorily conducted, both for the ratepayers and the rate-receivers, than it has been during the last year under the operation ot the old law ?— We do think so ; and at a late meeting of our select vestry every one concurred in the answer I have just now given to you, that under no system ol management could things be carried on more satisfactorily, both to the rate-payers and to the paupers ; and this is the opinion of nineteen-twentieths of the rate- payers of tha't township where I reside. The general foeling is this " What a pity that a system that has worked so well, and has produced so much good, should be now broken up !" That is the universal exclamation. I am not speaking ot the working classes, for they do not understand these things ; but amongst the most respectable portion of the rate-payers, the clergymen and such gentry as we have and^the principal rate-payers, that is the universal feehng. Indeed, you need not be surprised at that, when the rates have been reduced, within the last 20 years, to the amount that I have stated. The clergy are, I believe, to a man, opposed to the new law • they have seen the good effects of the old system, and are satisfied that Cannot be improved upon f but I am speaking always ot the Select Vestry Act ; that was the greatest improvement that ever took place in the Poor Law, so far as regards manufacturing districts. ^oor^Mr Walker.] Are you of opinion that where the Select Vestry Act is introduced the same good management always prevails in the manufacturing districts of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire ?— Yes, I know it to be the case. A 4 5295- ^O 225. 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Ax. Joseph Ellisun. 5295. Do not you believe that there is the same dissatisfaction in those districts with respect to the introduction of the new law ? — Undoubtedly. 21 March 1838. 5296. They are afraid that an increase of expenditure will arise from the establish- ment of a new staff of officers ; and they also object to taking from the rate-payers the control of the finances which have been expended with great satisfaction to all parties ? — Yes, the select vestry is no expense to the rate-payers ; they act gratuitously. 52Q7. Chairman.'] Have you a paid overseer? — Yes. 5298. Does he act gratuitously? — No ; I am speaking of the select vestry. 5299. Do not the board of guardians act gratuitously?^ — Yes, I believe they are to do so. 5300. Mr. ITalker.l To what do you attril)ute the rate of increase apprehended from the introduction of the new Poor Law ? — To the salaries which will be to be paid to the establishment ; a large amount will have to be paid in salaries. 5301. Will there be a greater amount of salaries paid, in proportion, from the introduction of the new Poor Law, than under the system you now pursue in your township ? — ^I think there will. 5302. Can you explain how that will arise? — In the first place, you have to pay the clerk a salary. 5303. What will be his salary from the union? — We have not determined that with us, but at Halifax they have decided to give the clerk there 140/. a year, and I should say we should give the clerk about the same. 5304. How many relieving officers shall you have in your union ? — I think we ought to have four at least. 5305. What will be the salary of each? — About 100/. a year each. 5306. That will make 400/.? — Yes; and we are to have assistant-overseers besides. 5307. How many ? — I should say, four. 5308. At what salaries? — At the same, I should say. 5309. What will be the charge for the medical officers of the union? — I cannot speak to that myself. 5310. What do you suppose will be the salaries to be paid to the medical officers for attending upon that union ; can you state some probable sum ? — I can only form a very vague opinion upon that, and I must be wide of the mark. 5311. Do you think you shall have more than two medical officers to look after that union ? — Yes, I think we ought to have half a dozen, myself. 5312. Chairman.] How many have you now ? — In our township we have one. 5313. What is the population of that township ? — Six thousand five hundred. 5314. Do you know what medical attendance there is in the other townships? — No ; a great number have not medical men. 5315. Mr. Wakley.] If the township contained double its present population, do you believe that one medical practitioner would be sufficient to attend the poor of that district? — Yes, and a great deal more; the medical practitioner that we have does that, beyond his present practice. 5316. Mr. Barneby.~\ What salary do you give to the medical man? — The last we gave was 18/. a year; when we began we gave 30/. a year; we had three resident practitioners in the township, and one or two interlopers, young men tiiat came into the district ; and there was such competition amongst them, the young men ofTered to do it for less than the regular medical men, that the salarv has been reduced from 30/. to 18/. a year. 5317. Chairman.] That was before the new Poor Law was introduced? — Yes. 5318. Mr. Bar)icl)i/.] Have you any vestry clerk? — No. 5319. Mr. Walker.] What salary do you suppose would be paid to the medical officers of the union ?^If we have six medical officers, I think it would be done at a salary of 40/. each. 5320. That would be 240^. — Yes; I think you ought to add a large sum for what I call sundries, which I cannot reckon. 5321. What will that consist of? — Stationery, and so on. 5322. Of how many townships does your union consist? — It contains 11 town- ships. 5323. And in each of those townships you have a standing overseer ? — No, not in all the townships; in some townships they have no standing overseers; but the overseers there are iip|)ointed annually, and perform the duty themselves. 5324. Can ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 9 5324. Can you ascertain in what townships there are gratuitous services, and in Mr. Joseph ElUsm. what townships there are paid overseers? — No ; I can only speaic to my own town- - ship and the neighbouring townships. 2' March 1838. 5325. Will you state in your own township what the expenses are of the stand- ing overseer? — He receives a salary of 50/. a year. 5326. How much do you pay for medical relief? — We did pay 18/. a year, but the paupers got to be very much dissatisfied ; they had no faith in the physic, and they also complained that the last medical officer treated them with great rudeness and incivility ; this complaint was made repeatedly by the paupers to the select vestry ; the complaints were made so repeatedly that the select vestry held a meeting on the subject, and they determined that the paupers in the workhouse, who, on the average, never exceed a dozen, should select their own medical officers ; that when they were ill, and required a medical man, they should send for any resident medical man that they thought fit, and we would pay him in the usual course; and the out-paupers, who are ten times more numerous than the in-paupers (in fact, the only class of paupers that we have in the workhouse are the aged and cripples), the out-paupers that required medical relief, we determined to give them money instead, and that they should go and buy the physic just where they thought fit; and I must say, that this plan has given almost universal satis- faction to the paupers ; and instead of paying 1 8/. a year, it has not cost us for the last two years more than 10/. a year; .so that we have been gainers to the amount of 8/. a year even on that plan. 5327. By giving them money, and allowing them to supply themselves with physic ? — Yes. 5328. Mr. Estcourt.'] Do you mean that that 10/. included remuneration to the medical gentleman for his opinion, as well as for the medicines he gave? — The medical men with us are surgeons and apothecaries ; we do not employ physicians. 5329. Do you mean that those paupers could go to the doctor and get advice and have the drugs for the 10/.? — The doctor was sent for to the workhouse. 5330. And the 10/. covered the expense? — Yes; I have stated that we have never had in the workhouse more than 1 2 paupers at a time, and they are not always taking physic ; they are a healthy set, and when they do take physic it is an exception, and not a rule ; and when we send for a medical man to the workhouse we pay his bill in the usual course, and that is to pay for his medicine. 5331. Chairman.] You have stated that the people in the Dewsbury Union consider that the union will be too large, from the extent of the population, and you have stated the population at 100,000 ; will you refer to the bottom of page 289 of the Third Report of the Poor Law Commissioners, and at the top of the next page; do you not find that the population is stated there as only 50,232? — But there has been a great increase in the population. 5332. That is taken from the Population Returns in 1831J has there been a great increase since ? — Yes, very considerable. 5333. Has it doubled ? — No. 5334. Then if it has not doubled, upon what grounds do you state the popula- tion of the union to be 100,000? — I stated the population of our union was under 100,000, but, if you take the unions of Dewsbury, Bradford, Halifax, Hudders- field and Barnsley, the average population would exceed 100,000. 533.5. If you add those together you say the population of each would exceed 100,000, upon the average? — Yes, so I have understood. 533*^- The population of the Bradford Union is 94,621, the population of the Dewsbury Union 50,232, the population of the Halifax Union 89,739, and the population of the Huddersfield Union 88,772? — That is in 1831; Bradford has increased amazingly, and Bradford contains now, I know of my own knowledge, upwards of 120,000 souls ; there is no place has increased more than Bradford has ; Bradford has nearly doubled in that time. 5337. Has Bradford increased more in proportion than the other places? —Yes. .5338- Then it would be difficult to arrive at the average of 100,000 in each union ? — I do not think it would, if you were to take the population now ; and, I believe, according to the returns which have been made, Dewsbury Union contains upwards of 70,000, I stated it under 100,000; 1 re-state that the unions that I 225. B named 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. Joiepk BUiwn. named contain an average population of 100,000 souls and upwards, and I am quite certain I am under the mark. 21 March 1838. 5339. Mr. Walker.'] The township of Gomersal, you say, pavh 50/. to the overseer, and for medical relief 18/. were paid, but it has been reduced to 10/. — Yes, we have not paid more than 10/. for the last two years, on the system I have explained. 5340. Is there any other expense of management in that township ? — No. 5341. Then the whole expenses of the staff appear to be 60 /. a year ? — Yes. 5342. Do you know the amount of your assessment for the last year ? — .1 have it not for the last year; and the reason why I have not put down that is, that pre- vious to that time we had made payments out of the poor-rates, which we have been prevented from doing by the Commissioners ; for instance, we paid a modus to the vicar in lieu of small tithes, of 57 /. a year, and we save 50 /. a year by it. 5343. Sixty pounds a year you have stated to be the expense of the manage- ment of the poor, including the salary of the overseer and the expense of medical relief; there are 11 townships in the union; can you state, to the best of your knowledge, whether 60 /. will be about the average expenditure of the ii town- ships? — No, it will be more; our township is a very populous one; it contains 6,500 inhabitants. 5344. Then it would give too great an average for the other townships .'' — Yes, much too great ; we return three guardians, and there are only two townships in the union besides, that return so great a number. 5345. I may calculate, from an answer given in the first part of your examina- tion, that there is a considerable amount of gratuitous service given by overseers ? — The office of overseer is compulsory, it is not gratuitous. 5346. But there is no payment made for those services ? — No, no payment at all ; where there is no assistant-overseer there is no payment made to the over- seer ; the office is compulsory. 5347. Is there any township in your union that has not the benefit of the assist- ance of an assistant-overseer ?^Yes, a great number; I cannot say how many, but I should say one-half, that manage their own affairs without an assistant- overseer. .5348. Do you suppose that there are five without a paid overseer or an assistant- overseer? — I think there are. 5349. Then we may calculate 60 /. a year for the expenditure of six townships, which makes together an expenditure of 360 /. ; and in the other five townships there are no paid oflicers, but of course there must be medical relief administered ? — In a great number of townships they give the paupers money, as we do ; and they go to what medical practitioner they think proper ; that is the general custom. 5350. How much is given for those purposes , do you think that it exceeds 10/. a year, the sum which is paid in Gomersal ? — I wish to confine my observations to the township in which I reside; there I have had practical experience for the last 20 years, and I know what is done ; and in the other places it is chiefly guess- work, and I wish to hazard as few guesses as possible. 5351. But you know that there is the same system in some of the other to«'n- ships as in your own? — Yes, in Batley. 5352. And the medical relief in other smaller townships is not, you would sup- pose, more than what is paid in your own ? — 1 cannot slate the amount paid, except in my own township. 5353. Do you know of any sum being paid to paupers in lieu of medical relief? — I do not know any precise sum ; we give them sometimes 55., sometimes 3*., sometimes 2*. 6d., as we think the case requires. 5354. Then, from the summary that I have taken, it appears to me that the expenses of the staff of those 1 1 townships, when they were out of union, were 410/. ; and that the contemplated expenses of the staff of the union, when founded, would be 1,180/. making of course an extra expenditure of 770/. ?— Yes. 5355. Mr. Boiling.] And you would have to add the expense of erecting new workhouses ? — We have plenty of workhouses already built ; our workhouse will accommodate 100 paupers, and we have not averaged more than 12 for the last dozen years. We prefer, in fact, the paupers residing at home; we find that we can keep them for less ; they are more comfortable, a great deal more ; the paupers prefer it, and if we can make them comfortable, and save money at the same time, we think it is our duty to do so. 5356. Mr. ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) n 53 56. Mr. JValkei\'] Are you of opinion that this statement could be confirmed Mr, Jourh Ellis on. by evidence produced from other projected unions ?— In the manufacturmg dis- g tricts I have no doubt of it. In the large market towns, I beg to say, sucli as Leeds - for instance, the management has been a great deal worse ; they have not managed the parochial matters nearly so well as we have done in what we call the country ; and I suppose it is because thev have not adopted tlie Select Vestry Act. 5357. Mr. Baincs.'] Your observations apply altogether to the Select Vestry Act . —Yes, they do ; I think that is the best Act that can possibly be applied to the manufacturing districts"; and if it was made imperative, I am sure we could very ad- vantageously "dispense with the new Poor Law Amendment Act. 5358. Mr. Wakley.'] Do the paupers make frequent complaints to the magistrates of the manner in which your duties are discharged to them?— No, never; I will venture to say, not once in 12 months do they make those complaints. 5359. Mr. Baines.] Upon that question, let me ask you whether you have any magistrates in your district ?— We have no magistrates residmg in the parish, or even in the adjoining parish ; those two parishes contain a population of upwards of 40,000 souls, and we have not a single resident magistrate ; but there are magistrates at Bradford and Dewsbury, and wtien we want their assistance, of course we go to them. -, t- 5360. Mr. Fieldett.'] At what distance are you from tho.se towns?— I'lve miles from each. • 1 • 1 1 5361. Mr. TVakky.'] What is the average number of paupers within the last year that you had upon your books, both in-door and out-door?— I cannot say. 5362. Could you state nearly; vou say you have about 12 in the house?—! may be very wide of the mark if I try to guess the number, but the paupers are very thinly scattered with us. 5363. Have you 30, do you suppose?— Yes, more than that a good deal. 5364. Forty?— More than that; I should say where we have one in-door we have ten out. 5365. What sum was collected in the last year for the maintenance of the poor? —I believe the amount was under 700/., but I have not got it down ; I have got all the years from 1816 to 1836, but the last year I have not, for the reasons I have stated. 5366. Mr. Fielden.] Will you state to the Committee what the expenditure has been in each successive year? — I have taken three years, and have made the average, and then I have jumped 10 years; it was of no use taking the whole; I began with 1814; that would be about the termination of the war; 1 took 1814, 1815 and 1816; the average of those three years is 2,341/. 16.^., but I wish to explain that this includes the county-rate, the modus paid to the vicar, and the constables-rate ; and we paid that out of the poor ; and it also includes the prosecution of felons ; and all those items were paid out of the poor-rate ; the county-rate has been very high with us till lately. Now I jump 10 years, and I take 1824, 1825 and 1826 ; the average for those three years is 1,786^. 175. Sd. ; that leaves a saving of 554/. 185. 4 ,r.o^:^vi : uu-.{< y *i» .to si J' ■ifcc!- , 3t*U0R li.AW AMENDMENTACt; Mk^lDTJiSOE EVIDENCli. ■■ i - .;■' "i ■ , .{■> 1 i-i'- ' ''■«', ■ \;'> : • •• 'f /. .-, H)r i \ : i '. it ■ I , / ON THE Oiilcieil, III) The Ho'isc of Cuininoris, (» fc Priiilcl, ■21 March 1838. N I N E N T E E N T H REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT; WITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Ordered, by The House of Commons, to he Printed, 23 March 1838. 233- [ ii ] LuncB, 2^' die Novemhris, 1B37. Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the Administration of the Relief of the Poor, under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act, Ordered, That the Committee consist of Twenty-one Members : Lord John Russell. Mr. Ward. Mr. Fazakerley. Lord Viscount Howick. Mr. Richard Walker. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Poulett Scrope. Mr. Villiers. Mr. Baines. Mr. Miles (Somerset). Mr. Boiling. Mr. Law Hodges. Mr. Lister. Mr. Chichester. Sir Thomas Fremantle. Mr. Slaney. Mr. Bameby. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Liddell. Mr. John Fielden. Mr. Estcourt (Devizes). Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers and Records. Ordered, That Five be the Quorum of the Committee. Jovis, 8* die Februarii, 1838. Ordered, That power be given to the Committee to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House. THE REPORT - p. iii MINUTES OF EVIDENCE - p. 1 [ iii ] REPORT. THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the Administration of the Relief of the Poor, under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Lam- Amendment Act ; and who were empowered to report the Minutes of Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House : — AVE taken some further Evidence, which they have agreed to report to H Tlie House. 23 March 1838. 2.33. [ iv ] WITNESSES. Heiirii Aliisgrave Musgrave, Esq. - - !'• i Dan'itl Gcodson Adey, Esq. - - - - \>- ^ Mr. James 'J)ii7/er - - - - - - p. 21 [ 1 ] MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Veneris, 23° die Martii, 1838. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Baines. Mr. Barneby. Mr. Boiling. Mr. Fielden. Mr. Freshfield. Mr. Hodges. Mr. Liddell. Mr. Scrope. Mr. Wakley. Mr. Walker. MR. FAZAKERLEY, in the Chair. Henry Musgrave Musgrave, Esq., called in ; and Examined. 5469. Chairman.'] YOU are chairman of the Ampthill Union ? — lam. * Esq.*^' * 5470. How long have you been chairman of the union ? — Ever since the formation. 23 March 1838. 5471. When was it formed?— The 16th of April 1835. 5472. What is the population of that union? — Fourteen thousand three hun- dred and fifty-seven. 5473. What number of parishes are there in the union ? — Nineteen. 5474. What is the size of the union, do you suppose? — Area 42,592 acres. 5475. Is the place where the board of guardians meet central in the union? — Nearly so. 5476. What is the greatest distance that any parish is placed, as far as you can recollect, from the workhouse ? — The parish in which I reside is at the greatest distance from the workhouse, and Shillington does not exceed the distance of seven miles from the workhouse ; it is described as two parts of Shillington in the book; the footway is about six miles. 5477. There is no parish farther from the workhouse than that? — That is the farthest. 5478. What was the expenditure upon the poor at the time of the formation of the union?— The average expenditure, taking the years 1832-33 and 34, was 14,602/., at about 20s. 4c?. per head upon the whole population of the union. 5479. What has been your expenditure since the formation of the union ? — Eight thousand eight hundred and seventy-four pounds. 5480. Was that the expenditure of the last year ?— No, the average expen- diture of the three years since the formation of the union ; in making that answer, I have referred to the relieving officer, who is in possession of the books. 5481. Mr. Fielden.'] Do the years in each case end in March? — Yes. Daniel Goodson Adey, Esq., called in, and Examined. 5482. Chairman.] HAVE you the means of telling the Committee what D G. Adey, Esq. number of persons were receiving parochial assistance at the time of the forma- tion of the union?— Not at the date of the union, but at the date of my examination I can ; I have gone through every parish book myself, and have taken out every name myself, and have not, in the slightest degree, depended upon the parish officers, and therefore I can speak with the greatest accuracy as to what extent the pauperism was. 5483. You have with you some return of the number of persons receiving parochial assistance; at what time was that made ?-^I made it in 1834 ; it applies to the Christmas of the 1 833 preceding. 5484. It applies to the state of pauperism at Christmas 1833?— Yes. 5485. At that time what was the number of persons receiving parochial relief in the Union of Ampthill ?— The number receiving, simultaneously, for I am not able ^.33- A to 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE D. G. Adey, Esq. to State the v.'hole number, receiving relief in a quarter of a year (when I say simul- taneously, I mean the whole number receiving relief within the month) was 554 23 lAUircli 1838. aged and infirm, and 1,021 able-bodied. 5486. Is that all? — That is all in the Ampthill Union, making together 1,575. 54S7. With regard to the able-bodied, in what shape did they receive relief? — In every way that, I believe, was possible, almost ; they received it in making up the wages of labour for every day that they were out of employment, and they received it on account of children, and there were many parishes in that union W'here at least half the labourers were receiving part of their income from the parish books. 5488. Was there any general scale upon which relief was given to the able- bodied ? — No, there were scales in particular parishes, and perhaps there was a scale as to the age of children, but it varied in many parishes ; there was no particular scale ; there were different abuses in different parishes. 54 8q. Were there any workhouses within the union ? — At Ampthill there was a small one. .5490. In the other parishes of the union were there any workhouses or parish poorhouses, in which relief was in any degree given ? — Not in the shape of workhouses ; merely as residences, there were two or three, I believe. 5491. Used as parish poor-houses? — Yes, merely as cottages in which paupers were permitted to reside rent-free, or where they were boarded, instead of board- ing themselves. 5492. There was, you say, a workhouse at Ampthill ; what was the system pursued in that workhouse ? — Very nearly the same system as under the Poor Law Amendment Act ; they had begun an amended system, and they had carried it out to a considerable extent. 5493. Were they in the habit of using the workhouse in the parish of Ampt- hill as a test, applying it to the able-bodied applicants for relief ? — ^I do not think that, to a very great extent, they did that, because they knew most of the cases ; the district was small, and I do not think they applied it much as a test ; and, in fact, they could not, for there was no room at all ; they did not apply it as a test, except to some few people ; there w^as no space. 5494. Were they, in the parish of Ampthill, in the habit of giving relief for lost time, or for the number of children, or in any other way, to able-bodied labourers ? — I believe, in a slight degree, they did that, but it was very much modified ; they had been copying some of the Hertfordshire parishes, and it was very much modified when I went there. 5495. You stated the number of persons receiving rehef tobe 1,575 in Christ- mas i 833 for the whole Union of Ampthill ; can you state what is the number that have been receiving relief in each year successively, or at any period since the formation of the union ? — The quarterly returns will give that accurately ; I have not them with me, but I can obtain that information. 5496. Can you state the number now receiving relief? — In Christmas 183G the numbers were 558 aged and infirm, and 25 able-bodied ; of those aged and infirm 36 were in the workhouse. 54Q7. Then the number of aged and infirm receiving relief appears to be pretty stationary ? — It is, and that is pretty nearly the same throughout the county. 5498. The reduction of the numbers of able-bodied receiving relief appears to be very great? — Yes. 5499. That reduction has taken place within the Union of AmpthiU since the introduction of the new law ? — Certainly. 5.500. Was that I'eduction made at once, or was it made gradually ? — As far as regards the able-bodied, the guardians, having the example of the parish of Ampt- hill before them to act upon, almost immediately adopted the plan of refusing relief to the able-bodied, except in the workhouse ; as far as they could carry out the principle, it was carried out at the moment. 5501. Have the Commissioners issued any rule, prohibiting out-door relief to the able-bodied, within the union of Ampthill?— No rules have been issued except the original five rules. 5502. At present, up to this moment, the board of guardians at Ampthill are acting upon their own conviction of the propriety of refusing relief to the able- bodied ON THE POOR LA\Y AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 3 bodied out of the workhouse, and not under any orders of the Commissioners ? — D. G. Adey, Esq Certainly. 5503. As far as you have liad an opportunity of observing, what has been the 23 March 183S. effect of witlidrawing this out-door relief from the able-bodied labourers within that union? — The general effect of that has been, I cannot have the slightest doubt, that tliose men now obtain employment wlio did not before obtain it ; you now never see them idhng about, whereas formerly they were constantly idling about for months togetlier ; tliat is the general effect, I perceive, in gomg round tlie country ; for when I first went into the union there was hardly a place into which I was not alraid of entering, lest I miglit be mobbed, but there is no such thing now. ,5504. Were there, when the imion was first formed, a great number of able- bodied who found a difficulty in obtaining employment ? — There can be no doubt that a great number were out of employment, and I believe the reason why I was sent into that county was, because thei-e were so many that the magistrates were in a state of alarm respecting them. 5505. Confining yourself to the Ampthill Union, have you understood that the amount of employment has very much increased ? — ^That is the general informa- tion, from every body, that has been given to me, that the employment has greatly increased. 5506. The employment upon the land ? —Yes. 5507. Is it exclusively an agricultural district ? — It is. 5508. Is there any lace manufactory ? — I believe there is a little lace, and perhaps there is some little straw-plait, but it is a domestic manufactory entirely ; it is carried on in the cottages of the poor. 5509. "What was, at the time of the formation of the union, the general rate of the wages in that district ? — I think they were then about Ss. ; but the amount of wages must depend entirely upon the class of people that are employed ; if I am asked as to the different classes of labourers I can answer the question. 5510. Take the best labourers at weekly wages ? — I should say that the able- bodied men of that class, in 1833, received 9s. a week. 551 1. The best class of common husbandry labourers ? — Yes. 55 T2. From 9s., have you any statement of any gradation of diminution in the amount of wages'? — No; I should say the wages were from 6s. to 7s. and 9s. a week. 5513. These were the wages generally given to agricultural labourers? — Yes ; the great body of agricultural labourers will be divided into about three classes, namely, the day-labourers, who would receive one set of wages ; the labourers who are also day-labourers, but who come on a Sunday, who would receive an additional shilling, and there would be the task-men ; those are the three great classes of labourers. 5514. With regard to the first class, the day-labourers, what wages should you say that they generally received in that district before the formation of the union r^ — I understand that it was about 9 s. a week ; probably that class would comprise a moiety of the married population. 5515. Mr. Wakley.'] Do you include ploughmen in that class? — I include ploughmen if they are not Sunday people ; I do not profess to know much about wages except from having been a farmer myself. 5516. Chairman.'] Then taking that class of labourers who were employed occasionally on a Sunday, would they have received an additional shilling ? — So I understand, that they get something additional, those who come on a Sunday. 5517. For attending to the horses and the cattle ? — Yes. 5518. Is there any great number of those '? — Yes, probably a fifth or a fourth will get Sunday wages, or if they do not get it in money they get it in milk, or something of that sort. 5519. What could a labourer employed in task-Avork earn, do you think? — The task-work is various, and, generally spealdng, the increase of the wages upon the weekly wages will be about one-fifth by working extra hours in task- work; it is very seldom that I have known a labourer that reached a foiirtb. 5520. Mr. Liddell.] Then they might earn 12s. a week?— I should doubt very much whether they exceeded lis.; you may say lis. to 12s., but I doubt it very much ; I am speaking from my own experience very much ; I know that my own labourers never did. 233. A 2 5.521. Chairman. 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE D. G. Alley, Esq. 5521. Chairman.] How many hours a, day were they in the habit of working? — From six to six are the common hours in Bedfordshire. 43 March 1838. 5522. Do those who are employed at task-work work longer? — It depends upon their own judgment and industry. 5523. Then they work from six to six, with an interval of some time for din- ner ? — Yes ; those little details vary in different parishes. 5524. Do you understand that the amount of task-work has increased very much ? — I understand, very much indeed ; that would be the general information which I have received. 5525. Has the amount of employment for the wife and the children in- creased much ? — I believe it has, with respect to some of the boys, and I know it from seeing it ; it is a common observation that the boys were never taken out by their parents when they went to their work, and I now see those boys at work, hedging and ditching, with their parents ; I believe that to be the general result. 5526. Do you believe the number of labourers employed upon the farms has increased ? — I understand, very considerably ; not only increased in point of number but in point of the periods for which they are engaged. 5527. Do you mean that the extent of the hiring has increased beyond what it was formerly ? — That they are not thrown out of work in the way that they were formerly. 5528. How were they thrown out of work formerly ? — If there was a little bad weather, or a little jealousy in the parish, or any other circumstance arose to make the farmers think that they would lose rather than gain by keeping their labourers on, then they threw them out of work. 5529. Do you believe that practice to have diminished ? — I believe so ; judging from the relief lists, and from all the information that has been given me, it has ceased greatly even during the late hard weather. 5530. Mr. LiddelL] The demand for labour being now steady and constant ? — Yes, certainly. 5531. Chairman.'] The relief in the Ampthill Union is administered und^r the five rules that have been issued to so many unions ? — It is. .,,-() frp. KaATpc,*, 5532. Mr. Baines.] What was the number in the workhouse at the formation of the union ? — At the Christmas 1834, there were 29 in the workhouse. 5533. Chairman.] Be so good as to give to the Committee a statement of the establishment charges of the Ampthill Union ? — The chaplain has 40 /. ; the first medical officer of the Ampthill district, 110/.; of the Cranfield district, 30/. ; of the Clophill district, 55Z. ; this is the date of the 25th of March 1837 ; the clerk and master of the workhouse and his wife have 120/. a year; the relieving officer, 170/.; the porter, 20/.; the nurse, 3s. 6d. a week and her maintenance; the schoolmaster, 10s. 6d. a week, and the schoolmistress 8s. a week. .5.534- Mr. Barnehy.] Does that include their maintenance ? — They live out of the house. 5535. Chairman.] With regard to the aged and infirm the number relieved appears to be much the same as it was befoi'e ? - 1 beheve it is. 5536. Have their allowances been diminished generally or not? — I should think that very little alteration has taken place, with the exception of giving a small portion of reUef in bread, and for this reason, that I always find that in every parish that I examined, wherever there was a great pressure of able-bodied persons, there the allowances of the aged and infirm were reduced as low as they could possibly be ; and therefore I do not think that there has been any material alteration in the allowances to the aged and infirm. 5537. If the allowances to the aged and infirm, under a system of great pressure from the number of the able-bodied applicants, was reduced as low as possible, and that pressure has been in some degree I'emoved, have not the allowances of the aged and infirm been increased ? — I cannot state that, because that would remain with the board of guarcUans in investigating the different cases, but my impression is, that they have been, in numerous instances ; the first instruction I gave the boards was to get rid of extremes as much as possible, one way or the other ; to equalize the cases as much as they could. 5538. You mean to equalize the allowance to persons in the same circum- stances ? — Precisely. 5539. The allowances to the able-bodied having been either very materially reduced ON TME POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 5 reduced or altogether withdrawn, what has been the effect, as far as you have d. G. Adty Es< observed, upon the condition of that class of persons ?— I do not perceive any " " material difference outwardly ; all I can say is, tliat I see more people in the fields, 23 March 1838 and more people employed generally, and I hear no complaint ; I have frequently stopped, when travelling in my carriage, and walked into the fields and asked la- bourers respecting- their condition, and I may mention, that in the riot that took place at Ampthill, the only cry was, " We want nothing but work." 5,540. When was that riot ?— A riot at the beginning of the formation of the union 554^. When was that?— In the year 1835. ,5542. What was the origin of that riot ? — The origin was the chan-^e of the allowance system from money to bread ; but the general feeling against the introduction of the law was another cause, the men being apprehensive, in fact, of being shut up in the workhouse, and they stated to me most distinctly (I was in the crowd for three hours, in the middle of them, talking to them) , that all they wanted was work ; that was their constant cry ; one of the observations (I am not sure that I shall repeat it accurately) was this, " that the land was in such a state that you might plough a furrow, and drag it from Ampthill to Bedford," meaning tl\at the land was so extremely foul ; I have a particular recollection of that expression. 5543. You say that you learn from inquiry of others, and that you have yourself observed a greater number of ])ersons employed upon the farms ; do you observe, from your knowledge of agriculture, any difference in the cultivation of the ground! or have you heard that there is any difference in that respect ?— I understand that that is the case to a very great extent, from general conversation I have had with persons. 5544. Have you heard, and does it at all consist with your own observation, that there is any improvement in the cultivation of the soil, arising from greater employment of the labourers ?— I believe there is no doubt at all of that. 5545. Mr. Liddell.] It is better worked, and cleaner ?— It is. 5546. Mr. Hodges.] Have you lived in Bedfordshire for some time ?— I have resided on the borders of Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire-above-the- Hills. ,5 547. Had you resided there long before you were appointed Assistant- commissioner ?— I had resided in Hertfordshire all my life almost ; but Bedford- shire-below-the-Hills is a different country from Bedfordshire-above-the-Hills, and I knew nothing of Bedfordshire-below-the-Hills. 5548. You were asked whether any alteration ha? taken place in the appear- ance of the people ; were you aware of their appearance before the new law was introduced?— Certainly ; as a magistrate of the county I was constantly seeing those people when they came before me. 5549- Chairmmi.'] Are you a magistrate of the county ? — Yes, of Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire, both. 5550. Mr. Hodges.] And you cannot see any difference in their appearance ? — I cannot see any difference. 5,551 . Do you see any difference in the state of their clothing?— No, I am not prepared to say that I do. 5552. Are the families of the poor people at all in the habit of going about in their parish begging from house to house ?— Not that I am aware of; I have heard of nothing of that sort. / 5553- Mr. Baines.'] You say you see no difference in their appearance ; do you -'* perceive any difference in their disposition, in the feeling that exists, as between the employer and the employed ?— 1 should say there can be no doubt whatever upon that subject, judging from the single circumstance, that even those people now touch their hats to you as they pass ; before they were always sulky ; four years back, if you passed them, they were generally sulky looking people, and now they are civil and polite ; I can perceive that difference ; that is the only differ- ence I can perceive. 5554- The only difference you perceive is the demeanor of those persons towards their employers ?— Yes ; and generally there seems to be a degree of civihty of manner about them that did not exist before. ,5555- Then have you any reason to sui)pose that there is a more kindly feeling existing between the employers and the employed?— That I can only judge from mference ; with respect to my own labourers, I know what was their feeling to- wards me by my acting differently towards them, from the conduct of other people 2..>3- A3 to 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE D. G- Adey, Esq. to their labourers ; I can mention that at the time the fires took place, my labourers — came to me in a body, and one of them told me that, in consequence of my not 23 March 1838. having lowered their wages by employing them as pai-ish men, my property was as safe as could be, but they would not answer for that of one of my neighbours ; I am sorry to say that the labourer who gave me that information was run over by a cart, and has died, or I should be very glad that he should give the Committee information upon that point. 5556. You have spoken of the wages of laboui'ing men as being 9 s. and IO.y. and 1 1 «. a week previously to the alteration of the law, and previously to the introduction of the union system ; have those wages increased since that time, or has there been any alteration at all? — I find that, in 1834, the wages went down from 9 s. to 8 s. a week ; that they continued at that in 1835 ; that in 1836 they rose to 8 s. and 9 s. a week, and that now, in 1837, they run from 9 s. to 10 s. a week ; that is the return which I have got from the books of an extensive farmer. 5557. That is the class of labourers that w^ere at 9 s., before the alteration in the law ?-^Yes ; precisely so. 5.558. With respect to those at 10s. and 1 1 s. a week, is there any alteration? — They would follow the others, almost as a matter of course, in the same ratio. 5559. You have said, that there is more piece-work now given in the union than there was before ; can you form any idea of the proportion of piece-work now given, with the piece-work given before the period when the change took place? — -No, I cannot. 5560. The only answer you can give is, that there is more ? — That is the only answer that I can give, that there is a great deal more piece-work given. 5561. Then, in reality, in addition to those small improvements that you have mentioned in the rate of wages, there would be an improvement in the income of families, by their having piece-work instead of daily work, because I find, from your previous statement, that those who work by the piece obtain more, by about 20 per cent., than those who work by the day ? — Certainly, that would be the natural effect ; there are more people employed by the piece, and therefore the effect would be so ; they are generally family men employed in that way. 5562. You have also spoken of the children being better employed; can you form any idea of what alteration the children obtaining employment would make in the average earnings of families in that neighbourhood ? — I can give you no idea ; the calculation is so minute that it is impossible ; when a farmer I took great pleasure in endeavouring to calculate those things, and I never could get, with any satisfaction, at the fact how my labourers and their families supported themselves. 5563. That is a very interesting inquiry? — It is a very interesting one, but I am quite incapable of forming any correct idea of it. 5564. Yovi have spoken also of there being a disposition amongst the farmers to employ their labourers more constantly ; can you form any idea as to the difference that that would make in the income of the family of a labourer ? — I can form no such idea till I know the data, the number of weeks that the man used to be without employment and the number of weeks that they are now in employment. 5565. But my question goes to the point, whether you have those data? — No, I have not. 5566. Mr. Fielden.] Have you resided near Ampthill for a considerable time? — I have resided for the last seven or eight years at St. Alban's, in Hertford- shire, and I resided before on the borders of Hertfordshire, 14 or 15 miles from Ampthill, where I have some little property now. 5567. You have had constant opportunities of inquiring into the state of the the poor, and ascertaining what their condition is in that district ? — Certainly ; as Assistant-commissioner I am constantly moving about in that district. 5568. Are you a farmer yourself? — No, I am not. 5569. You were appointed Assistant-commissioner on the first formation of the unions in this district? — I was. 5570. Have you made it your business to attend to that district ? — Yes, I have entirely devoted my time to it. 5571. What was the practice that prevailed in the parish of Ampthill with regard to the relief of the poor before the union was declared ; how was relief fidministered ? — I beUeve in the parish of Ampthill they had in a great measure stopped ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 7 stopped making up the wages of labour ; I am not prepared to say to what D. G. Adey, Esq. extent, because without seeing the books, and I only saw them four years ago, I could not state. *■ 23 March 1838. 5.'',72. Uo you know what the rates were in the parish of Ampthill before the union was formed ?— The rates were 1,003Z. in 1832 ; 1,036/. in 1833; and 1,067/. in 1834. 5573. Chairman.^ Wliat have they been since?— In 1834-35 they are 968Z. ; in 1835-3C they are 603/. ; and in 1836-37 they are 442 i. 5574. Mr. Fielden.] What was the rate per head in the parish of Ampthill ? — Twelve shillings and threepence. 5575. Has there been a reduction effected in the rates in the parish of Ampt- hill? — I understood, considerable, during the last three or four years ; but as I had no time to look back beyond the period for which it was necessary to take the averages, I cannot give the information ; but I understood, in the last three years before the formation of the union, they had very greatly reduced their expenditure. 5576. Have you not, in your report to the Commissioners, stated the rates in the parish of Ampthill to be 12s. 3f/. per head, at the period of the formation of the union ? — Yes, I believe I have. 5.577. Do you believe that to be correct ? — I do, unless there is an erroneous calculation. 5578. Were the assessments made on the same valuations before the formation of the union that they have been since ? — The expenditure here given has no relation whatever to the assessments ; I am not capable of speaking about the assessments. 5579. Has there been any alteration in the mode of assessing property since the union was formed ? — In all probability, under the new Assessment Act, there has been an alteration ; I am not prepared to state whether it has been carried out ; I know that there are extreme diificulties in doing it. 5580. But in the parish of Ampthill the rate was 12*. 3d. per head upon the population, before the union was formed ? — Not the rate, but the expenditure. 5581. And the expenditure per head for the whole of the parishes in the union, when the union was formed, you have stated to be 20s. 4d. per head ? —Yes. 5582. How had the reduced expenditure per head been effected in the parish of Ampthill before the formation of the union ? — I understand by getting rid, in a great measure, of the able-bodied pauperism ; that appeared to be the general result, I think. 5583. Do you know whether the expenditure before they made that alteration was the same as in the out-parishes ? — Not from my own knowledge ; I did not inspect the books beyond the three years. 5584. If a saving of 8s. per head on the population could have been effected in Ampthill parish before the union was formed, could not the other parishes have taken the same steps, and effected a like saving ? — The Ampthill parish is rather a large parish, and had efficient people to act ; and I believe the whole of the saving was the act of one single individual ; that he was the efficient person to do it, although he was assisted, no doubt, by others ; but without his doing it it would never have been done, I think. 5585. The rate-payers had all a voice in choosing those who were to manage the affairs of the poor ? — Nominally, but not practically, certainly. .5586. What was it that counteracted that in practice?— They never took any trouble about it. 5587. How were the overseers appointed ?— I really cannot apprise you in what way they were a2)pointed ; the common way was by sticking up notice on the church, and the magistrates appointed them. 5.588. You have said that there was a great scarcity of laboui amongst the population of that union before the new Poor Law came into operation ; has the amount of labour increased generally throughout the union ? — So I under- stand. 5589. But, being a practical man yourself, and living amongst them, have you not had oportunities of informing yourself upon that point ? — Certainly not ; 1 have no opportunity of knowing wluit has been the expenditure of individual fanners, except from what they tell me ; and the extent of my living among them is, that I 233. A 4 am 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE D. G. Adey, Esq. am goijig from union to union, constantly travelling about, and fully employed in the business of the Commission. 2,3 March 1838. 5590. Chairman.'] What has been the impression that you have derived from conversation with the farmers ? — My impression is, that the amount of work has been increased generally in the imion. 5591. Mr. Fielden.'] In your second report you state confidently that full and regular employment is given to all the labourers in your district, both in winter and summer ?— At that period certainly. 5,592. What was the period you were then referring to ? — ^This was the summer period. 5,'iQ3. But you include winter in it as well as summer, in that statement? — I could only draw the conclusion stated in this report, from finding that no relief was given to able-bodied people in that district, and therefore I, of course, drew the conclusion that they found employment generally, as I ascertained, from various inquiries, that they had not removed from the district ; it was only by inference that I could draw that conclusion, and from the general information that I received, that they were almost all in employment. 5594. But living amongst the labourers, had there been any deficiency of employment, would not they have made it known to you 1 — In all probability they would. 5,595. Then at the period you were speaking of, have you any doubt that the labourers had full employment both in winter and summer r — I cannot answer to particular periods, but this report has reference to the former state of the country, and its altered state, and I can only judge from what I generally saw. 5596. Do }'ou not further say, in that report, " that the occupiers are no longer able to obtain labour at an under price?" — Yes. 5597. " That industry has revived, and is reaping its reward ; that the idle have thrown oft' their former habits and have become good and useful workmen?" —Yes. 5598. And you there challenge inquiry among the labouring people into those acts ? — Yes, certainly. 5599. Does the same constant employment prevail among the labouring people of the Ampthill Union now? — I have understood, with the exception of a little difficulty in the winter, that that employment does continue, and the general information I receive is to that effect ; the inference to be drawn from the little relief given to the able-bodied confirms me in that opinion. 5600. Chairman.] You state that there was some little difficulty in the winter ; what happened then ? — There were all sorts of experiments tried to make up the wages, that they may get labour cheaper during the period of a cessation of labour. 5601. With regard to the condition of the labourers themselves, if they should be unable to obtain private employment, and be deprived of parochial assistance, except through the workhouse, is it your impression that they come into the workhouse and receive that relief, or that they remain out of the workhouse and suffer severely from the privation of relief? — I have no doubt that individuals have suffered ; I cannot entertain any doubt about that ; but my general impres- sion is, that they have obtained sufficient employment to support them during the short ])criod that they do now from time to time get thrown out of work ; I cannot suppose that they can bear beyond a certain quantity of suffering. I have \ no doubt that there must be suffering, and that they would not go into the work- \ house till the last moment ; but I have never heard of extreme suffering. 5002. Have you ever understood that persons have been under the necessity of selling their furniture and stripping their cottage of its effects before going into the workhouse ?■ — 1 have heard from pawnbrokers that a vast number of petty articles, particularly during the last winter, upon the cessation of labour, were brought to the pawn-shops. 5603. Do you understand from the pawnbrokers that those articles were ■I brought from the agricultural labourers? -Yes. 5064. Was that during the last winter? — Yes, and some little during the winter before. 5605. Under those circumstances, if the labouring population, from the long continuation of bad weather during an unusually severe winter, or from any accidental circumstance which deprived them of employment, should be reduced to the state that you have described, what, \x\ your opinion, would be the proper course ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 9 course to adopt? — The way in which I have recommended the unions to act is, d.O. Adty, Esq. to take the men in and leave the families out, in order that we may be fully satisfied that the men were not employed at lower wages, and that we might -23 March i«38. obtain what little return we could in the workhouse ; that lias been the plan I have recommended. *c 5606. That plan would be attended with this advantage, would it not, that you take a security that the private establishment of the labourer will not be broken up ? — Yes, exactly so ; and I think it has this further advantage, that it enables the wife to make inquiries for labour for her husband, and that she gets him work ; which, if all the family were in the workhouse at the time, they would be unable, perhaps, to obtain. 5607. Has that j»lan been extensively adopted? — It has been recommended to all my unions, and I have never known an instance of its having failed to be beneficial. 5608. Mr. Hodges.] How do the family subsist? — They are supphed by the relieving officer with bread, as a matter of course ; they are all relieved. 5609. Chairman.] During the time that the man is in the workhouse the family must, of necessity, be relieved at home ? — Yes. 5610. Mr. Hodges.] Can you state for what space of time these men are gene- rally taken from their families and shut up in the workhouse ?— It is a limited period ; I am not aware that any able-bodied man has been separated from his family for more than a fortnight, and there are very few cases of even that ; in general they decline even that relief ; it is not a new plan ; it is a plan that I acted upon before the Poor Law Amendment Act took place, and in one union particularly it was carried out to a great extent before we had the workhouses ; having no workhouses, that was the plan that I adopted ; it would have been impossible to have taken the families into the workhouses. 5611. Mr. Barnes.] Does it prevail in other unions besides the union of Ampthill ? — I have strongly recommended it to all ; it enables a distinction to be made between families of good character; they do not choose to leave out a family of bad character, but they leave out a family of good character. ,56 1 2. Mr. Hodges.] AVould not the necessary effect of this system be, that a man, in order to return to his family, would accept a job of work at inferior wages, rather than be shut up in the woi'khouse and be under restraint ? — I have found this to be the case, that the labourers wall not generally accept of wages which will not support them and their families. 5613. Chairman.] What do they do if they do not meet with those wages? — I infer they do obtain some means to support their families, or come in. 5614. Mr. Hodges.] Is that a practice throughout the unions under your charge ? — It is ; throughout the whole of my district I have recommended it ; and it has been partially acted upon in all the unions. .5615. Chairman.] You are referring to a period of pressure? — No; at all periods, but it began in periods of pressure. 5616. M.V. Hodges.] Then this is a de^^iation from the strict workhouse test that is recommended to be enforced in the Poor Law Amendment Act ? — It may be a deviation from it, but it is no deviation from the rules of the Commis- sioners ; the peremptory rule has not been issued in my district. 5617. Mr. Barnehij.] Have you not known cases in which a man and his wife having been taken into the workhouse, they have left the workhouse sooner, in consequence of the wisii of the wife to leave the workhouse being stronger than the wish of the man ? — I have not known any such cases ; there may have been such cases, but I have not known them ; I find instances in the books where women have endeavoured to prevail upon the husbands to remain in during the inclement seasons of the year. 5618. Mr. Baines.] Has there been any material increase in the population of the Ampthill Union between the year 1833 and the year 1837 ? — Not that I am aware of at all. 5619. You have been asked, whether the farmers give more employment, and whether they have the means of giving more employment ; you have stated that there has been a saving of nearly f),000/. in that union in rates ; your statement is, that in the three years preceding 1834, the amount was 14,602 /. ; in the three years succeeding it was 8,874/., making a difference of 5,728 Z. : if there was a saving of 5,728 I. in the pockets of the rate-payers, who are principally farmei's, would they not be enabled to give more employment to their work- -'.33. ^ people, 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE D. G. Adey, Esq. people, from that circumstance ? — That is the reason that I state that there is more employment, and that is the reason for my thinking that there is more 23 March 1838. employment. 5620. l\Ir. Hodges.'] Do you happen to know whether rents have increased since the Poor Law Amendment Act ?— I have not heard of any case of that ; I I am quite sure that the value of property has increased. 5621. But you do not know whether the rents have increased? — No ; I have never heard of any instance of rents heing raised, but I know one parish where the value of property has increased considerably. 5622. Mr. LiddelL] The value of property has increased from the charges upon it bding less ? — Exactly ; in a parish, for instance, where the weight of pauperism was perhaps 40s. a head upon the population, no person would thir^k of purchasing while the old law existed, and now, when the extent of * pauperism is supposed to be tolerably well regulated, I have no doubt that that feeling will entu-ely change ; in fact, I am told by professional men and others, thcit that feeling has entirely changed. 5623. Mr. Hodges.] Will not the inevitable result of the improved value of property be an increase in the amount of rent ? — I should suppose that that must be, by-and-by, the result ; I apprehend that would be the case. 5624. Then, in reference to the answer which you gave to a question by an honourable member just now, of the saving of rate to the farmer enabling him to employ more labour, that saving of rate will not be an available balance hereafter, on account of the increased rent he has to pay ? — That is assuming that the whole difterence goes to the landlord in the shape of rent ; I apprehend that the effect of this law must necessarily be to benefit all parties, labourers, farmers and owners ; that is the result I look for in the end. 5625. It would not then be safe to consider the whole amount of the saving as so much money remaining in the pocket of the farmer, enabling him to employ more labour ? — Probably not the whole of it, inasmuch as I believe there are several parishes in Bedfordshire in which no rent at all was paid, but now I presume rent is paid. 5626. Mr. Walker.] In the case of farms let on long leases, if the rate is diminished, it will be a benefit to the farmer ? —Yes. 5627. Mr. Baines.] If the landlord residing in the union has an increase of rent, is it not very likely that the landlord would be disposed to lay that out in improvements upon his own estate, and consequently in the increase of labour ? —I am not at aU aware how other landlords stand, but the effect of the charges upon landed property has been already so severe upon many of us, that it will be a long time before we can lay out any thing. 5628. Mr. LiddelL] In point of fact, the land is now productive, which before, from the charges upon it, was unproductive ? — That is the fact. 5629. Mr. Baines.] You have spoken of the suffering in the last winter, owing to the inclemency of the weather ; suppose you had had an inclement winter before the passing of the Poor Law, there would have been then considerable suffering among the poor, would there not ? — I should think very great indeed. ;' 5630. Then the suffering of which you have spoken is not imputable to any alteration arising from the change made by the Poor Law, but to another cause, that is, the severity of the weather ? — Most undoubtedly. 5631. Mr. Fie/den.] Have the morals and the habits of the labourers improved in the district under your superintendence since the formation of the union ? — So I am told ; in general conversation with farmers and others, I am told that they are ; I have no means of judging myself of the morals of the lower classes. 5632. Chairman.] Wliat do you observe in the neighbourhood of your own residence ? — I am so constantly moving about that I cannot speak of those near my own residence particularly. ,5633. Mr. Fielden.] Would not that necessarily be the result of improved wages and improved employment ? — It most probably would. 5634. You have stated that work is more plentiful, and that the labourers are now enabled to obtain better wages? — I am not aware that I said better wages. 563.5. Have you not stated that there has been a rise of wages since 1836 ? — Yes, but I do not know that that arises at all from the Poor Law ; 1 have given the rate of wages as I received them. 5636. In 1 836 and in 1837 there was an advance, in the first year, of a shilling, and in the second year of a further shilling ? — 'Yes. 5637- Are ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) n 5637. Are those the wages now paid generally? — So I understand, in that V.G. Adei/,Esn. district. ~T. , „ „ .5638. Would not that increase of income of the labourers necessarily lead to ^3 iviarct ib3». improved circumstances, and to make them better satisfied with their condition? — I should hope it would, if that increase is in proportion to the increase in the price of the necessaries of hfe ; but that is so minute a calculation that I am not prepared to say whether it is or not. 5639. Do you know what the price of wheat was in 1835? — Not expecting to be examined to-day, I have not brought the accounts with me. .5640. Supposing the price of wheat to have been 4.5.'^. a quarter in 1835, and now 556'., are the circumstances of the labourers at all improved from that rise of wages : suppose a labourer had to purchase wheat in 1835 at 45s. a quarter, and was then receiving 8s. a week, and suppose he now has to purchase wheat at 55 s. a quarter, and is receiving 10s. a week, is the condition of the labourer improved in his command over wheat ?— I must know the proportion that they bear to each other and to his other expenses, before 1 can answer the question. 5641. What do the labourers live on in your district?—! believe generally wheaten bread is their common food. 5642. Is that bread made of wheat? — Yes. 5643. Is the principal part of what he receives in wages laid out in the pur- chase of flour with which to make bread ? — I do not know how the labourer expends his wages. ,5644. But if he lives upon wheaten bread, you must know what the expenditure is ? — I only know that that on which the bulk of the labourers are hving consists of bread. 564.> Mr. LiddelL] Practically, is the condition of the labourer better when he has wages of 10s. than when he has wages of 8 s. ? — I should think so ; the old men have told me that during the war they were better off; they contrived to do better with what they had then, though provisions were higher in price. 5646. Mr. Fielden.'] You are now upon an important question respecting the state of the labourers ; do you not consider it your duty as Assistant-commis- sioner to be prepared to state to this Committee what is their condition since the unions were formed ? — I conceive it my duty, as an Assistant-commissioner, to obtain all the information possible as to the result of the law, but I do not consider it my duty as Assistant-commissioner to ascertain facts which, before I was Assistant-commissioner I never could ascertain to my own satisfaction at all in any individual case ; and therefore I have certainly not taken any pains to know how the labouring classes contrived to live upon their wages. 5647. Chairman.] You mean that you have not taken pains to ascertain the particular manner in which their earnings are laid out ? — I have not, having taken the greatest pains to make those incjuiries before the Poor Law Amend- ment Act, and never having satisfied myself upon it. 5648. Mr. Fielden.] When you speak of an improved condition having taken place with the labourer, what is the criterion by which you judge of that improved condition ? — I draw the inference that they are in employment, and therefore that then- condition is improved, inasmuch as I no longer see or hear of constant congregations of able-bodied labourers unemployed. 5649. Are you aware that there were constant congregations of labourers unemployed before the new Poor Law came into operation? — I have had them, from day's end to day's end, scores at my door. 5650. What was the reason for their attending at your door ? — To obtain relief from the parish, or employment ; work was what they asked for ; they came to me, as a magistrate, for work. 5651 . Did they state the reason why they made application to you, as a magis- trate ?— They stated that they came for work. 56.52. Were they out of employment when they made application? — Most undoubtedly. 5653. What did they apply for ? — For work ; I can give you no other informa- tion than that. 5654. Wlien you could not give them work, what did they ask for then ? — They asked for relief. 56,55. Did you direct relief to be given to them?— Never in my life ; I set myself, as did the whole body of my brother magistrates in my division, against 2^^. B 2 that ; 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE D. 6". Adey, Esq. that ; our only order was, that the parish officer should look to the individual "T; — , ." cases, and see that the people were not -left destitute. 23 IV arc 1 1 3 . 5656. Did they obtain any reUef in consequence of applications to you upon that subject ? — I have no doubt that they did obtain relief, but I cannot say in consequence of their application to me, for I never granted an order in my life, and it was not the custom of the district where I resided. ,5657. You stated, that in 1833, the highest class of day-labourers had 9 s. a week ; what were the sources of income beyond that 9 s. a week from their fami- lies ?■ — I do not think there are two families alike in that respect, and therefore I cannot give an answer to the question. 5658. Did not the practice prevail of giving an allowance out of the rates, for the maintenance of families ? — To a great extent. 5650. Do you not know the scales? — No ; I have never had any thing to do with scales, and I can give no information, except from the parish books. 5660. Then you cannot tell what was the allowance by any parish ? — It varied in each case ; it can be ascertained from the parish books. 5661. You are not prepared to state to the Committee what the income was before the union was formed, and what it is now ? — I am not prepared to say what it is, for it must be different in every individual case. 5662. Then how is it that you can can speak to the improved condition of those labourers ? — I only draw the inference from their not being apparently out of emplojTnent,andnot deriving I'elief from the parish books, which theydid formerly ; I can only draw the inference, I cannot know it from my own knowledge. ';!f5663. Chairman.] Supposing that you knew the wages of a labourer, in full employment, you would then know only the amount of his earnings from wages ? —Precisely. 5664. Besides those earnings, which the labourer receives from wages, are there not, in many cases, other earnings which arise from additional employment of his own leisure moments, or from employment of part of his family, which are not easily ascertained, and which go to constitute his whole income ? — I should say, as far as I know the habits of the labourers, there are very trifling additional earnings made by himself ; his whole time is employed at 9 s. a week ; but I can give you no idea of what his wife and children would earn ; that would vary in every case, and would vary in every village, according to whether it was lace or plait that was done. 5665. Mr. Fielden.'] Do you know whether, taking a man, his wife and four children, earning 9*. a week, in 1833, he would receive any relief from the parish in that period in aid of his wages, in the Union of Amp thill '?■ — The habits of the parishes were various ; some gave relief after the men had three children, and some four ; and some of the magistrates ordered diiferently ; and that is a question that I cannot answer without referring to the parish books, and seeing how the facts are. 5666. But you know that some allowance was given to a man having three or four children ? — Most undoubtedly. 5667. And that would make an addition to the wages of 9s. a week ? — As far as regards the children. ,5668. The family would receive more weekly, in consequence of receiving so much of the rate ? — That does not exactly follow ; if he was out of employment he would receive from the rates. ^y^&c). Supposing him to be employed at 9s. a week ? — He would receive for a certain number of children. 5670. "What would he receive?- — That would vary in almost every different parish, just as the parish officers thought proper and the magistrates thought proper. 5671 . Can you state what the amount was ? — No, I cannot from memory. .5672. But you do know that the practice prevailed of giving a man so much for his children beyond his wages ?■ — Most undoubtedly. 5673. Has that man's income been increased or diminished for the use of him- self and his family under the operation of the new law ? — You mean, comparing his present income with his former income from wages, and what he received from the rates ; I cannot answer the question, because that must depend upon whether his children are employed ; if the children are not employed it has not increased. 5G74. Take the case of a man and his wife and four young children, all the childi'en ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 13 tliildren incapable of working ; has that man's income been increased or dimi- U. G, Adey, Esq nished under the operation of the new law ? — I should think that if that man was in — employment he would not formerly have received additional rehef for his children, 23 March 183S. generally speaking, because the scale was in some parishes three, and some four, generally four ; therelbre his income would not vary, as far as regards his children. 5675. Do you mean that a labourer of that description, before the new law, had to live upon his 9a'. a week without any assistance from the parish? — Yes. 5676. That relief was denied in that case? — They seldom or never appued, except from the habit they got into of applying in almost every case ; I can speak to my own labourers. 5(177. Take the case of a man with a wife and five children, all young, what would he have allowed to him ? — I believe that one of the scales was, that if the children were above 10, they received ISd. or Is. ; the common scale was, that after the children were 10 years of age, they received a certain portion of allow- ance from the rates. 5678. Mr. Liddell.] For each child after 10? — Yes, that was the common scale. .5()79. Mr. Fielden.] What was the allowance? — It would vary from Is. to 18(/. ,56tk). For all? — No, for all above a certain nutnber. 5681. Take a man and his wife and five children, earning 9*". a week, what would his earnings be made up to ? — Assuming that he had 1 s. allowance, he would receive 10s. a week. ,5082. Was I.S. the sum allowed ? — ^Yes, Is. 6d. I think was the sum generally allowed. .'",683. There was nothing allowed to a man with four children? — ^That might have been allowed in many parishes: I have no recollection of any case where they received unless they had three childi'en ; but I believe, generally speaking, they received when they had four children. .5684. Wliat is the state of the man now with a family of five children ; what would he receive in wages now ? — Nothing but his wages, and those are, according to the account I have, 9*. and lOs. a week. 5685. Are the wages generally 9s. and lOs. a week in the unions in which you reside ? — They vary materially in the different districts. 5686. Will you state the variation? — I think that in Buckinghamshire the wages are \s. less. 5687. Speaking of your unions? — The whole of Buckinghamshire and of Hertfordshire are under my superintendence, with the exception, in the latter county, of part of the east side. 5688. You have stated that in 1834, when the unions were formed, 1,021 able-bodied labourers were receiving relief in the Ampthill Union? — Yes, simultaneously. 5689. You have stated also that in 1836, the number of able-bodied were reduced to 25; can you state the sum that was paid to the 1,021 ? — No, I cannot; nor should I have formed the unions in Bedfordshire by this time if I had attempted to make that calculation ; it took me a week to make the calculation for my own parish ; therefore, if I had attempted to do it in all the parishes of Bedfordshire, I should never have got through. 5690. But those labourers must have received a considerable sum? — Yes, they must, in my calculation ; I took the average of 10 parishes, and tried it; it is a very loose calculation indeed ; but, as far as I can judge, I believe the amount that the able-bodied received was 40 s. per cent, upon the whole expen- diture, but that is merely a loose calculation of my own. 5691. Mr. Baines.] Is it not the fact that though you have had no reduction in the aged and infirm, you have had a reduction in the able-bodied from 1 ,02 1 to 25, and you have a saving out of the rates of 1,000/. a year? — Yes, the saving in the Ampthill Union exceeds 50 per cent., and, as far as I can form any calculation, without going into minutiae to satisfy my own mind of its correctness, I believe that able-bodied pauperism cost about 40 per cent, of the original sum. 5692. Mr. Fielden.] You have fiuther stated that the aged and infirm were in 1833, 554, who were receiving relief, and that in 1836 they were 558 ; must not the expenditure for the aged and infirm be pretty much the same in both periods ? — I apprehend that it is. 23:,. B 3 5693. Then 14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE D G A8ev Esq 5693- Then the saving in the rates has been almost altogether effected by !_'__ reducing what was given to able-bodied men ? — A great proportion, un- 23 March 1838. doubtedly ; my own impression is, from 35 to 40 per cent, of it. 5604. Has the withdrawal of that sum annually from the able-bodied men placed them in better or worse circumstances?— I should consider, myself, and I believe that the able-bodied men generally will tell you, that they are in more con- tented and happy circumstances. 5695. That you believe to be the opinion of the able-bodied men generally in the Union of Ampthill? — I should say that all the respectable able-bodied men would give you that evidence ; if you were to put a leading question to them, and ask them, whether they would like to have Is. 6d. a week in addition to their income for their children, they would say, " Yes ;" there is no question about that. 569G. Chahinan.l In what respect is their condition improved? — By their being no longer, as they express it, parish birds. 5697. How are their circumstances improved? — If you mean pecuniaiy circumstances, I am not prepared to say that their pecuniary circumstances are improved ; there is very httle ditference between their pecuniary circum- stances ; they now find themselves in constant employment, instead of being pushed from pillar to post as they used to be, that I think they would almost . all tell you they are better off. 5698. Do you think their employment is more constant? — Yes. 561)9. And that the employment given to the members of the family is more frequent '? — I think that the farmers, from their anxiety to keep those men, from their being better workmen, do employ their children ; they tell me that they do to a much greater extent than they used to do, and I have heard from the taskers particularly, that they bring their children into the barns, and teach them threshing and laying out the corn, so as to help them out, which they never before were in the habit of doing. 5700. Has the task -work increased ?— I should say, very greatly. 5701. Taking those three circumstances together, though the amount of allowance may have been reduced, that the employment of the labourer is greater, that the employment of the family is greater than it was before, and the amount of task-work greater than it was, will not those circumstances tend to an improve- ment of the labourer's condition ? — That is what I say. 5702. Do you think that those circumstances have made compensation to the labourer for the withdrawal of the parish allowance? — Yes. 5703. Mr. LidclelL] All that he now receives is the fair produce of his own industry, instead of the accidental relief that he derived from the parish ? — Certainly. 5704. And on that account, a man receives that money, so eai'ned, with a greater degree of self-esteem and contentment than in the former case 1 — I can only judge of the labourers from the expressions used by my own labourers ; at the time of the fires, I was constantly knowing what their sentiments were at the time, and I draw that conclusion. 5705. Is there any great distress in the labouring population of those unions ? — Not that I am aware of; not, I am sure, to the extent that existed in those parishes when I was examining into them four years ago. 5706. Mr. Fielden.] Does the increased employment of the labourers, without increased wages, or increased income, tend at all to make them more contented ? — I do not think that any body can reside in Bedfordshire without being satisfied that they are more contented; I, as a magistrate, can answer for that, because there was nothing but discontent, but now we are in a quiescent state ; three years ago we were in a state of discontent, now we are in a quiescent state. 5707. Mr. Bai/ies.] Supposing a man to receive 8s. a week as wages, and to receive 2s. as parish relief before the change, and supposing him now to receive 10s. as wages, the sum being exactly the same, would he not be better content with the 10s. which he received entirely as a reward for his industry than he would with the lOs. a week formerly partly received for labour and partly received from parish pay ? — I have not the least doubt that many labourers would rather receive the 8s. as independent labourers than the 10s. ; they would have it in preference. 5708. Mr. Fielden.] Is it the fact that they now receive 10s. a week in wages, whereas before the union was formed they received only 8s. a week ? — That is the fact, ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (188S.) 15 fact, I believe; I have given the amount of wages at various dates; 1 have P. G. ^rfej/, Esq. stated that the amount of wages in 1834, was Si'., and that they are now, I believe, lO*. ^3 March 1838. 5709. In consequence of this increase of 2s. a week, are the labourers become more contented, more moral, better members of society, better fathers, and acting in a manner more creditable to themselves ?— That is the information that I receive, that they have. 5710. But you cannot be ignorant of the fact, if it be so ? — How am I to know those facts of my own knowledge ; I do not go into the labourer's cottage and inquire of him, except occasionally ; I cannot tell whether he is more moral or not ; it is impossible. 5711. Have you not stated in your reports that the people are more moral and more contented? — Yes; from the information that I received, I believe that they are. 5712. Chairman.^ Do you know that returns have been made to the House of Commons of the number of criminal offenders in the year 1837 ? — I understand that they have. 5713. Do you know that from those returns it appears, that in the county of Bedford there is a decrease to the extent of 24 per cent, in the number of criminal offenders in the year 1837? — I have heard that, as a magistrate, but I was not aware that the return was sent in. 5714. Mr. Fielden.] You have before stated, in your report to the Commis- sioners, and I have understood you to confirm it, that the labourers were in full employment, both in winter and summer ? — As compared with the state in which I found them. 5715. There is no comparison about it ; if they are in full employment it is a question of fact? — Yes ; I draw the inference that they are in full employment because I find none of them receiving relief, and I find the county perfectly quiescent ; no rows as there used to be, and from the general information that I ' receive that they are employed. 5716. Are there more or less robberies committed ; is there more or less sheep- stealing in the Unions of Ampthill, Woburn and Bedford, than there was before the passing of the new law ? — How am I to get at such a fact except I acted as a magistrate, which I have no time to do ; I cannot get at the fact of sheep-stealing without referring to the returns. 5717. Are you aware that in that report to the Poor Law Commissioners you have given a statement as to this fact ; will you i-efer to No. 9, page 295, of the Second Report of the Poor Law Commissioners ; will you read to the Committee No. 9?- — " I am fully persuaded the morals of the labourers are much improved by the new Poor Law system ; there seems to be a general disposition to do more for their families, and are more condescending to their employers; wages are Is. per week higher, from the advance in corn. They tell me, ' It was those idle vagabonds that brought about this new law\' I am sorry to say that sheep- stealing and other depredations have been more prevalent since the system com- menced than was ever known before ; I consider this to arise from those bad fellows who will not work, not being able to get any money from the overseer, as they had been accustomed." 5718. That is the year in which you state that there was full employment for the labourers, both in winter and summer ? — Yes. 5719. Will you read the paragraph. No. 10? — " There is a disposition to seek after and retain work ; their general habits and mannei'S more to oblige their employers than formerly ; they frequent the ale-house quite as much ; I think it quite out of the question for a man with a family to save money out of 8i\ per week ; their rents average I s. (J d. , and clubs 6 d. per v.'eek ; to deduct from that sum, even those who have tlie ability want the disjiosition ; wages are the same ; I think the steady labourer feels more satisfied than heretofore ; poaching and petty dej)redations have increased in this parish double to any former year." 5720. That is in the year when there was full employment for all the labourers in your union, as you have reported to the Commissioners ; does that show an improved state of morals ? — That is the opinion of an individual whose name I have given ; it is not given as my opinion. 5721. Have you not adopted it as your opinion by sending it to the Commis- sioners in your report ? — I sent it as it was forwarded to me ; I did not give it as my opinion. •, . -.. -. 233. B4 .5722. Would i6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE .G.A(ki/,Esa. r)' 2.2. Would not any one reading this paragraph at once believe that you were cognizant of the truth of the facts so stated ? — Perhaps, reading the paragraph, J March 183S. any one might, but I think not reading the whole report ; because it distinctly states whom the paragra])hs came from, and how they were sent. 5723. This is a communication from the relieving officer of the Biggleswade Union ; did not you report what he said, as believing it to be true, coming from a person who was constantly travelling through the various districts, in order to relieve the j)Oor ? — This is the information sent me by Mr. Snitch, the relieving officer, he stating that he has obtained it from other people. 5 7 24. Do you believe that Mr. Snitch communicated what was true or what was false ? — I have no doubt that he received that communication, none whatever. 572.3. Do you believe it to be true or false ? — If the question is, whether that gentleman's opinion is true, I must refer to the returns ; I cannot tell any thing about it. 5726. Was it not your dut\- to be acquainted witli the facts of the case before you communicated the facts to the Commissioners, that they might go forth to the public ? — I communicated it as it was communicated to me. .3727. Ckairmaii.] Did you communicate that as stating facts within your knowledge ? — Certainly not. .5728. Did you not mention it as having been given to you, and mention the name of your informant '? — Yes. .5729. Mr. Baines.] Was it not against your view of the subject, inasmuch as it is representing the effect of the new law rather to its disadvantage than advan- tage ? — I beg to state that I have given in that report the replies to every question, whether they were for or against the new law ; and that amongst the rest appears in this report, and that happens to be against it. 5730. Mr. Fielden.'] Have you not confirmed all this by your own report, w'hich precedes it ? — I have drawn my opinion from the general information I have received. 5731 . But giving this as a confirmation of your own report, do you not believe it to be true ? — Yes, I did, to a certain extent. 5732. Do you not now believe it to be true? — Yes, in this gentleman's imme- diate district, I dare say, it was correct ; I dare say that was his opinion. 5733- Will you read No. 12 ? — "I think there is a greater disposition on the part of tlie able-bodied labourers to seek and retain employment than before the new Poor Law came into operation ; but I do not see much alteration in their general manners and habits. The alehouses are, I think, more frequented than ever, which may be accounted for, in some measure, by the facility given to the lower classes of persons in towns to obtain licenses to sell beer, and partly by the neglect of the parish officers, and the I'espectable inhabitants generally, in not enforcing the law against beer-shop keepers, for selling at unseasonable times ; the rate of wages has not been altered in this parish for a length of time ; but ' considering the low price of wheat the last year (the price of which article has always been a guide), I may say they are much higher than formerly ; I do think that the industrious labourers, generally, feel more satisfied with their condition in consequence of the system adopted towards the idle ; but I am not of opinion that poaching and petty depredations have at all diminished, but that the greater crime of sheep-stealing has increased in a tenfold degree." 5734. Do you believe that to be true? -No, I do not, that with regard to sheep-steaUng. 5735. Then why did you make such a return to the Poor Law Commissioners ? — I sent this return because it was sent to me, and thinking it my duty to give both the good and the bad. .573(). Is not tliis in confirmation of your own report ? — Not at all ; it was no report of mine ; I forwarded to the Commissioners the exact communications that I had received ; I furnished them with those documents. 5737- Will you now read paragra])h 13 ? — "My opinion as to the effects of the new Poor Law system upon the able-bodied labourers is as follows : they are more ready and willing to serve their masters, and more careful of displeasing them ; and, if any are out of employ, are more eager to obtain work ; they do not frequent the alehouses so much as under the old system, because they cannot demand money of the overseer ; I think they drink as much beer at their work as they used to do ; I do not see any disposition to lay by a part of their earnings, ON THE POOR LAW MfENDMENT ACT. (1838.) -| 17 earnings, nor do I think tliey can laj' by any (speakina; generally), for the price D. G. of labour is the same as last year, 9s. per week ; I do not know that the indus- trious labourer is altered any, but I ani certain that the working of the new Poor '-23 March 1838. Law will make more of this class; at present, I think, poaching and other depredations have been quite as numerous, and sheep-stealing i.s spreading more every year, and will be so until the idle labourers, who used to be paid for doing nothing, are worked oft' by being transported for crime, or reclaimed by the new system." ,5738. Chairman.'\ What is that extract from? — An exti'act from the reheving officer's report to me of the opinions of the dift'erent individuals that he had consulted upon the questions. 5739. Not relating to the Ampthill Union? — ;No, this refers to the Biggle- swade Union, for, by some accident or other, the report relative to the Ampthill Union, which Avent up, got lost, and it never appeared ; I corrected it, but it got slipt out, and it never appeared. 5740. Mr. Walha\~\ Are you not of opinion that, in the course of the transi- tion from the operation of the old law to the new, there might be a great amount of crime by certain individuals, rather than submit to the privations of the work- house system ? — I was certainly apprehensive that that might be the result, and I am much surprised to find that it has not been nmch more extensive than it has been throughout my district. 5741. Chuinnan.] And does it appear from the returns that there has been a diminution of crime in the county ? — Yes, in the last quarter sessions it was mentioned that the amount of crime had decreased. 5742. Mr. Fielden.} You have stated, in answer to a former question, that the labourers are generally in full employment in the Union of Ampthill? — Yes, at that time they were. .5743. Are they in full employment now? — As I have not lately been to Ampt- hill, except for one day, it is perfectly impossible for me to say ; but there are gentlemen in the room who can speak to that point. .5744. Have you heard of any late period when there was a considerable assemblage of labourers at Ampthill on a certain day ? — I wish to state, that since Mr. Fielden's agents have been there, I have purposely abstained from going there myself, except for the purpose of attending the Bedtord Union at the audit. 5745. Do you know that there was a meeting? — I have heard so; I know nothing of my own knowledge. 5746. Do you know the number that were reported to have attended that meeting ? — I know notliing about it. 5747. You do not know whether those who attended that meeting were out of employment or not ? — No, I do not ; 1 was in Buckinghamshire at the tiuie I heard that there was a meeting. 5748. Has the opinion been pretty general in the Union of Ampthill that the labourers had full employment?— I believe that is the general feeling. 5749. Do the labourers come out and show themselves, for the purpose of making known to the inhabitants that they have not full employment ? — I cannot possibly answer that question, whether they come out to show themselves ; because, as I have been through only one or two parishes, I cannot say what is done in the other parishes ; I am not aware that they come out to show themselves in any such way ; I should suppose the place where they would come and show themselves would be at the board of guardians, as a matter of course. 5750. How many parishes are there in Ampthill Union? — Nineteen. 57.51 . Do you know any one of those parishes in which the labourers have full employment ? — If you ask me as to emplojTnent in any locality, I can only answer as to information given me ; I can only judge as to what 1 see at the board of guardians, and the few applications that are made there ; and I judge entirely fi'om that, that most of the labourers are, in fact, in employment ; very few apply to the boai'd for relief, and therefore I draw that inference. 57.52. You are quite certain that the^' do not make application to the relieving officer for relief ?-~-l cannot speak to that. 5753. How do you know that they do not make application to the board of guardians for relief? — J apprehend that every application to the board will appear upon the board of guardians' books, and I can see what the numbers are.- 233- c 57,54. Is i8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE D.G.Adei/, Esq. 5754- Is not every application made to the relieving officer reported to the board of guardians ? — It should be, and, I apprehend, is. 23 March 1838. 5755. Then if there are many applications to the reheving officer, can the board of guardians be ignorant, the applications being made ? — Certainly not, if they are I'eported by the relieving officer. 5756. Do you believe that many apphcations have been made, owing to the applicants being out of employment ? — I dare say that there have been during this winter a certain number, owing to their being out of employment. 5757. Have they always been denied relief, unless they would go into the workhouse ? — I am not aware, as there has not been a stringent order, what has been the mode of proceeding of the board since the winter commenced, because I have been in a different district altogether, and have not had an opportunity of seeing the books since that period. 5758. Are the board of guardians in Ampthill acting under the order refusing out-door relief to able-bodied ? - Certainly not ; there is no such peremptory rule in operation in any part of my district. 5759. Is it discretionary with the board of guardians of the Ampthill Union to grant relief out of the woi'khouse, if they think proper to do so '?— Most undoubtedly, and throughout my district. 5760. Have the board of guai'dians refused to grant out-door relief to able- bodied labourers who have been out of work during the winter 1 — I believe they have; I have no doubt of it. .5761. Do they, on all occasions, offer relief in the workhouse? — I should apprehend so ; when I have been there, and seen their mode of business, that was their general mode of doing it. .5762. Mr. Scrope.] Is the Committee to understand that you believe that that discretionary power, that the guardians have of affording relief out of the work- house, to able-bodied paupers, has never been exercised in any single instance ? — I cannot say whether it has or not, but my impression is, that it has been done in very few instances indeed ; that in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred they would order relief in the workhouse ; there might be an exceptional case, because they have power so to do, and it is impossible, without referring to the books, for me to say whether they did or did not ; the habit in the union is to refuse relief to the able-bodied, except in the workhouse. 5763. Mr. Fielden.] What are the numbers of able-bodied in the Ampthill workhouse at present ? — I believe there are hardly any ; the last time I passed through Ampthill, which was a fortnight ago, there were, I think, none, or only two or three. 5764. Do you ever converse with the labourers, in order to ascertain what their objections, if they have any, are, to go into the w^orkhouse ? — Not latterly ; I have had very little communication vdih the labourers in the Ampthill Union ; I do not know that I have conversed w^ith one ; I have in the other unions. 5765. In the Ampthill Union, have you heard of no complaint, on the part of the labourers, to go into the workhouse? — Certainly not ; I have heard no com- plaints about it. 5766. What is the dietary that is used in the workhouse of Ampthill? — This is the dietary. [The Witness delivered in the same. — Vide Appendix. 5767. Chairman.] Is that one of the dietaries of the Commissioners r — It appears to be so. 5768. Are there no modifications ? — No, I do not see that there are. 5769. Mr. Fie/den.~\ Have you heard any complaints by the able-bodied labourers of the dietary given in the Ampthill workhouse being insufficient for their maintenance ? — No, I have not ; I was there, I think, just before Christmas, and there were then some able-bodied labourers in the workhouse, and they knew me, and they made no complaints to me, and I did not seek for them. 5770. Do you think the dietary there described is sufficient for a labouring man to be supported on ? — As a magistrate I have been in the habit of visiting the gaol of St. Alban's, and 1 have there seen able-bodied labourers live upon 1 f lbs. of bread a day, with water, and I have found them, at the end of two years, in perfect good health ? — I have no doubt that that dietary is sufficient. ,5771 . What will be the cost of an able-bodied labourer, living upon this dietary, per ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 19 •per week ?— That is a minute calculation, which I could not give ; there can be -D- G. Adey, Es no exact calculation without you take the exact dietary. 5772. Then have you thought it to be necessary to make inquiry as to what ^^ ^'"*^'' '^^^ the amount of food should be to be furnished to an able-bodied labourer ? In looking at those dietaries generally, I find the whole quantity of food amounting to so many ounces, and that it is higher than is allowed in the gaol at St. Alban's, where I had always seen the inmates in perfect good health. .5773- Mr. Barnehy.] Is not that return the average amount of what they cost ? — Yes ; but the average of all classes, if you enter into a minute calculation as to what the maintenance of an able-bodied man costs, it is an endless task. 5774- Mr. Fielden.] What is the description of persons in the Ampthill work- house at present, there being no able-bodied ? -Thev are almost all the aged and infirm, and a few children. 5775. Is out-door relief denied to the aged out of the workhouse in that union ?— Certainly not ; nothing of the sort, nor in any one of my unions ; no such thing ever entered into my imagination. .5776. Do the aged and infirm prefer living in the workhouse to living at home ? — I have never asked them their opinion, but I should say the bulk of them have no home at all, and no friends. 5777. Are there many widows in that workhouse without children?— The books will show exactly whether the workhouse has a widow or not ; I have seen old women in the workhouse, and talked to them, but whether they were widows or maids I cannot say. 5778. Has it come within your knowledge that widows of considerable age have been denied out-door rehef?— I should not think that that had occurred unless they were fully satisfied that they had means of living without aid from the union ; I do not think that that would have occurred, from what I have seen at the board. .5779- Has it come to your knowledge that either widowers or widows havin"- children have been denied relief out of the workhouse in the Ampthill Union ?— I cannot answer for widowers ; I dare say they have been refused out-door relief; but I know that it is the practice of the board to give a great amount of relief to widows with children. 57^0- Have you in your travels in that union visited the cottages of the poor 1 m order to see in what state they are as to their furniture and bedding ?— I visited 1 a great many of the cottages before I formed the unions ; and I am quite aware that they are in a most wretched and deplorable state; they were then, and I have 1 no doubt that they are now\ j 578 <• Have any of them been obliged to sell their furniture in order that f they might subsist since the union was formed ?— I am not aware of such cases, but I understand that the pawnbrokers' shops have a good many articles m them. ■' ' 5782. But if you had been in the habit of frequenting those houses, would not you be told by the inhabitants of those houses what their state was, and be able to see with your eyes what the condition was ?- If you mean to ask me whether 1 have asked poor people whether they were in a state of distress, I never have because I never seek out for distress, but I want distress to seek me out and therefore I have not sought out them. ' .5783- Did I not understand you rightly, that you did, before the formation of the union, visit the cottages of the poor, and have done so since ?— Yes I have occasionally been into the cottage of a poor man, but the poor men' I have visited have generally been poor of the better class, and not of the inferior class; they have been generally labourers that I have wanted to ask about labour ; I am satisfied that there is a great deal of distress ; I have seen too much 01 it. 5784. Does that distress naturally lead to the increase of crime in that union ? —It does not appear to have done so, as far as I can judge. 578.5. Has there been any increase of sheep-stealing in the Ampthill Union? --I must answer that question as I did before, that I "cannot tell whether there has been an increase of sheep-steahng or not ; I ought to know that better in a magisterial capacity than as Assistant-commissioner, and I do not know it in either. 578C. Do you believe what you have heard on that subiect?— No ~^^' ^ - 5787. Chairman'] 20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE G. Aiky, Esq. 5787. Chairman.^ Have you heard that there is an increase of sheep -stealing in the Ampthill Union '? — No ; but those gentlemen who reside in the iinion will t Maicli 1838. tell you better about that ; I am there only two or three times a quarter, and I cannot, therefore, speak to all those questions. 578S. Mr. Baines.] You visited the cottages of the poor before the establish- ment of these unions, just on the eve of their establishment <* — Yes, just to see the state in which they were. 5780. Did not you find, on visiting the cottages, that many w^ere in a deplor- able condition at that time ? — In Bedfordshire there are many cottages that have not a floor, and many that have not more than a pot to boil their food in, and they would stick the key under the hatch, and there was nothing to break in for ; and many ai'e in that state now, and there is the greatest possible distress. .5790. Do you then think that there is any difference between the state of the cottages now and the state of cottages of that kind before the alteration of the law ? — No, I am not prepared to say that there is, because they are generally the very lowest class of poor, the idlest and most dissolute of all, and I am not pre- pared to say that, in two or three years, they are so improved as to make their cottages better ; their wives are slatterns, and there is every thing wretched about them. 5791. jNIr. Fieldcn.] And this misery exists, you believe, notwithstanding there is an increase of wages ? — Yes ; it does not follow that it is an increase to the wages of those individuals ; I have never said that. 5792. But you have said that there is full employment for the labourers in that union? — Yes; it does not follow that this class of labourers are receiving 9s. or 10s. a week ; you must deal with every individual case. ,5 793. You have spoken of Shitlington parish being seven miles distant from the board ; are there many applicants that have to come to the board, in order to obtain relief, who live in Shitlington parish ? — If we have the relief books you can tell the exact number, but I cannot state ; I should have thought that Shitlington parish, except by the carriage road, was not seven miles from Ampthill. 5794. You have before stated that, since the unions were formed, the relief given to the poor has been equalized, that is, to the aged and infirm ? — I stated that the only alteration that I was aware of w^as to equalize, as much as possible, the different quantum of relief given to the aged and inffrm. .579.5- What did you mean by equalizing; were those that were receiving the highest pay reduced to those that were receiving the lowest pay, or what was the equalization to which you referred ? — They were equalized in a gi-eat measure as to their pecuniary circumstances ; I do not think it was asked whether they received high or low, but they would equalize them as to their particular wants ; you would find that particular parishes had particular favourites, and you would find that one person was receiving 3s. 6d. a week, while another person, with the same wants and in the same circumstances, might be reduced to 2 s. 6 c?. ; and the payment to both of those might be reduced to 2s. 6d., if you were satisfied that that was enough ; and you would find in another parish, that an industrious woman received in the reverse way, and she was increased, perhaps, to 2s. 6 d. ; that is the only alteration which has taken place. .1796. Do you apprehend that the amount of relief given to the aged and infirm and the children has been augmented since the union Avas formed? — I believe that it remains nearly in the same state that it was ; I am not prepared to state precisely, because it is a matter of minute calculation ; but I am not aware, from looking over the books, that there is any such alteration as to justify me in saying that there has been a material alteration. 5797. Mr. Barnehy.] Will you state to the Committee what arrangements are made in the Ampthill Union for the funerals of paupers who may die in the workhouse ; in tlie first instance, will you state whether they are buried in the parish in which the workhouse is situated, or in the parishes to which they respectively belong ? — They are buried in the parishes to which they respectively belong ; there is a hearse to take them to those parishes ; that is what I have recommended in all my unions, and that is the practice followed. .5798. Flave you heard any objection made by the clergymen of those parishes ? — No, I never have. 5799. Chairman.'] Have you ever heard, that when the body has been taken to the parish, there has been a difficulty in respect to the fee to the clergyman? — I beheve ON THE POOR LAW A^IENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 21 I believe there has, and I recollect an instance where there was some dispute D. C Ad^«'^i' >«3». ^800 Mr. Barnehii?[ Has any permission been given to. the parents ol the chil- dren who may die in the workhouse that they may attend the lunerals ; or, on the other hand, has permission been given to the children that they may attend the funerals of their parents who mav die in the workhouse r— I have not the least idea that permission would be refused ; I cannot say that it has been given, but I have seen the hearse going from the workhouse, and persons attending it. 5S01 . Relatives of the deceased ?— Very likely ; I cannot say. ry^02. Are the arrangements in the Ampthill Union similar to those m the other unions I— I suppose so ; I have not heard to the contrary. 5803 In the case of a child dving in the workhouse, m what mode is the funeral conducted?— I cannot give the details ; it is left to the chaplain ; I have directed them to be conducted with proper deceHcy ; in the Ampthill Union 1 met the funeral of a person in a cart, which is not certainly conducting it with the same decency that we should conduct it. Mr. James Turner, called in ; and Examined. 5804. Chairman.] WHAT is your profession or business in life? — I used to Mr. Jumes Turner be a dresser of cotton-yarn in a factory. ^ 5805. Have you lately been in the Ampthill Union ?— Yes. .'j8o(i. Have you been there for the purpose of making inquiries into the con- dition of the poor there ? — I have. 5S07. In what state did you find them?— I have found them not in a good state ; I found a good deal of distress existing amongst the cottages of the poor people. ,5808. Among what class of people particularly ?— Almost all of them; those more especially who had not constant work. 5800. With regard to old people, in what state did you find them ?— I found some of them worse than they used to be, and some of them better than they used to be. , . , • i a i. 5810. When you say worse than they used to be, had you been in the Ampt- hill Union before ? — No ; when I say worse than they used to be, I mean that the relief given to the aged and infirm, in some instances, is not so much as it used to be, and in some instances more than it used to be. "5811. But among the poor, amongst those cases of old people that you inquired into, should you say that the allowances are generally increased or diminished, as far as you inquired ? — As far as our inquiry went, I should think that there is in general a diminution, that they have rather decreased the allow- ance to the aged ; but some of them have increased and some of them remain as they were. ■5812. Among the able-bodied, what state of things did you find amongst them? That class of labourers, as I before stated, who are in constant work, that is, work regularly for their masters, we did not find them so much worse than they used to be ; that class that are the worst ott" are those that have not constant work. 5813. Take the case of those who have constant work, what did they describe to you their condition to be? — Their wages are generally 9s. a week, with one exception, where they had been having 12 5. with one master. 5814. Are you speaking of the parish of Ampthill, or of the parishes about • Ampthill contained within the union ? — I am now alluding to Ampthill parish. 581,''). And there you find that the general rate of wages is 9s. a week?— Yes, with the exception "of the laboureis who worked for one gentleman, and he has been giving 12s. ; but he is now dead, and there will be an alteration, I dare say. fjSit). Up to the time of his death he gave 12 s. — He did. 5817. Has he died recently ? — A few months ago. 5818. He was the only person who gave that amount of wages ? — Yes. 5819. There was the difference of 3 s. between the wages which he gave, and the general wages of the labourers ? — Yes. 5820. Did he employ many labourers ? — Yes. 5821. Did the other employers give any allowance, or any liquor, that made S'.T. ' c 3 up 22 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr, James Turner, up for the difference between 9*. and 12 s. a week ? — No, not anjr ; it was con- sidered a fortunate circumstance for those people who worked for this gentleman. 23 March 1838. 5822. Had they any advantage besides that 9 s. a week ? — Not any, with one or two exceptions ; some farmers will give them some milk in the morning, but that is not very common, and nothing else but their 9 s. ; I am speaking of those that work by the day. 5S23. Did you find many working by task-work ? — A good many. 5824. Did they say that there were more or fewer employed in task-work than formerly ? — There is a greater inclination among the farmers to employ men at task-work. 582.5. More are employed in task-work than formerly ? — Yes. 5826. What did you find them earning at task-work? — Generally about the same wages that were earned by the day, or in some instances it would be an increase of I s. a week, but not very common. 5S27. At task-work, then, they earn 9 s. a week ? — It is so contrived, when the farmer gives the work to his men, he contrives so that he sliall earn a shilhncf a week more, but they do a shilling more work for it. 5828. Do they, or do they not, earn generally more at task- work than they do by day wages '? — They may, in many instances, earn a shilling more, but not beyond a shilling. 5829. Generally, do they earn a shilling more ? — Not always ; but sometimes they do. ,5830. What sort of task-work are they employed at? — Threshing, ditching, draining, hedging ; that is generally done by piece. ,5831 . Are the children very much employed ? — No ; not to such an extent as I should have imagined. 5832. Did you ask the farmers, or the labourers whom you saw, whether there was more employment for the children since the law was introduced, or not ? — I did. 5833. What was their answer ? — They could not state that there was any difference. 5834. You do not think the number of children employed was increased? — As far as Ampthill was concerned I think not ; there is plaiting done, and they put boys to the plaiting as well as girls. 5835. Did yoa hear, in your communication with the people there, whether there was or was not any difference in the amount of emiiloyment given to children since the law was changed? — I could not find that there was any dirterence. 5836. Were there a great many people out of employment ? —A great many. 5837. In Ampthill, or the parishes around it ? — In both. .5838. What number of people did you find out of employment? — In the winter, during the very severe weather, there were from 30 to 40, in the parish of Ampthill alone, totally unemployed ; on the 18th of February there were 50. .5839. What became of those people? — They were about in the streets, stand- ing in corners, and I saw some sitting at home. 5840. How long were they out of employment? — I am speaking now, when I say that number, of the severe weather, — from three to six weeks. 5841 . How did they five during that period ? — That is a question that they could not themselves answer ; I often asked that. 5842. Wliat explanation did they give you ? — When I have asked them gene- rally how they were situated, what they had coming in, and what they had to pay out, I used to ask them often how did they live ; the answer is, " We cannot tell, but chieriy on bread and potatoes." 5843. How did they, being out of employment, describe to you that they obtained the bread and potatoes ? — In most instances some parts of the family are making a trifie with plaiting ; those families that plait are rather better off than those families that make lace. 5844. Among those 30 or 40 able-bodied labourers whom you have described to be out of employment at Ampthill, were there some whose children were not employed in plaiting ? — ^Yes, and some of them Avould be young men that had no families. .-,845. Take the case first of a young man without a family, he being out of employment, how did he describe to you that he Hved ? — He would not hesitate for a moment to say that he went stealing, and was driven to it ; they woidd frefjiiently ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 23 frequently tell us, \inder the circumstances that they described, " We are driven to Mr. Jumcs Tamer. do that which we should not have done if we had work." — — 5846. Did you form an opinion, during your residence at Ampthill, that the 23 March 1838. amount of crime had increased lately ? — I do think so, of petty crime. 5847. Upon what ground do you form that opinion ?— From the manners and habits of tlie people, "from what I heard of them, and from my own general observations ; I did not see them myself go to do those things. 5848. Then I am to understand that your impression is that the young men were driven by distress to habits of stealing, in order to support themselves ?— I do think so. 5849. Now take the men of a more advanced age, and with famdies dependent upon "them ; what did they do to maintain themselves during the time you describe them to have been out of work ?— If the children were plaiting, and the children were making 3s. or 4*. a week with plaiting, they contrived to eke out an existence with that, and those men with families have, in the back end of the year, generally contrived to get a few potatoes together, and a great many I found living upon those potatoes, having nothing but potatoes and salt. 5 8 ■50. Did you collect that the amount of employment in the neighbourhood was greater than it had been in former years ?— Very little, not much ; but they did seem, as far as I could get information, to think that there was rather more work than there used to be ; but a great many have been driven off to various parts, such as the railroad ; a great many have gone from that part to the railroad. 585 1 . They have found employment on the railroad ? —Yes. 58-)2. At pretty good wages ? — Some of them at 15s. a week, 2s. 6d. a day ; ^ but if a man's family was in that part, and he went to work on the railroad himself, he hardly gets so much money to bring home as if he had 9s. a week on the spot. 5853. But you describe 30 or 40 in the parish of Ampthill, that were entirely out of employment for a period of from three to six weeks ; did those people apply for relief to the board of guardians ? — Not to a very great extent. 58-54. Why did they not ? — Because it was of no use whatever to apply. 5855. Whywas it not?— The impression on their minds was, "We have no parish now, it is of no use to apply for relief now, though we are out of work ;" so that, though they were suflrering the distress which I have now named, they did not choose to go to the board at all, because they did not like to go to the work- house, and it was a well understood thing that it was either the workhouse, or no relief at all. 585G. Was their distress very great ?— In some instances it was very great, worse than I ever saw in my life. 5857. Were you in the workhouse ?— I was. 5858. Did yovi observe whether the people appeared to be healthy or unhealthy in the workhouse, or whether there was a sufficiency of food ? — Not a sufficiency of food ; the children of nine or ten years of age certainly looked the best because the children of nine years of age had the same allowance as the grown-up persons. 5859. Did the grown-up people, men or women, whom you saw in the work- house appear to be healthy ? — I was in two or three times, but the first time I was there there were not many able-bodied. f58()0. But there were a good many grown-up persons? — Not so many when I went to see the paupers myself. 5861. Supposing them to have been few or many, what was the appearance of their health ? — Their appearance was not good. 5862. Did you hear complaints of the insufficiency of the food? — Not while they were in, but always when they came out ; every individual that I saw, when they came out, when I asked them about their food, always said that the soUdfood was good ; they did not find fault with the quaUty of it, but the quantity ; but every individual that I saw said that the worst day was Friday, when they had only 14 ounces of pudding for dinner. 5863. On Friday I find that they have for breakfast five ounces of bread and a pint and a half of gruel, and for their dinner 14 ounces of pudding; and they have for supper five ounces of bread and an ounce of cheese r — Yes. .5864. Did those people describe the food generally, taking one day with another to be less good than they had been accustomed to iii their own houses ? •-';^3 c 4 —No, 24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. James Turner. — No, but they described it to be insufficient : and that though it was insufficient at home, no family ever went into that house till they wei-e driven to the very 23 March 1838. last shift, so that they were better fed in the workhouse than when they were out ; but still they stated that they had not sufficiency of food. 5865. What sort of pudding was it? — Plain suet pudding. 5866. That is noui'ishing diet, is it not? — Yes, if they have plenty of it, it is. 5867. You found those people preferring to remain out of employment, in a state of extreme distress, with an insufficiency of food, rather than go into the w^orkhouse ? — 1 did ; many would suffer death ; tliose were their expressions ; " I will never go there if I can have one meal a day ; if I can have a bit of bread, a bit of potato, I wiU never go there ;" there is a strong feeling against going there. .5868. Did you hear any complaint of the manner in which they were treated in the workhouse, as to kindness, or otherwi.se I — I did not. .5S69. Did you hear those statements of a determination not to go into the workhouse, and being willing to suffer deatli or any extremity rather than go there, made by persons who had not been in the workhouse, or by persons who had been there ? — By both. 5870. You found, from the genei'al answer of the people, an impression that their condition was altered for the worse by the introduction of the law ? — That was their impression. 5871. Before the introduction of the law, they were in the habit of receiving an allowance from the parish ? — Yes ; whether they worked or not, they used to assemble on the roads in large numbers. 5872. They used to apply to the parish officers, and if they did not succeed in their application to them, they went to the magistrates and were ordered a certain allowance from the parish rates V— As far as 1 could get to understand it, every man that there was no work for was put on the roads, or in the gravel-pits to get gravel, with a certain allowance according to his family. 5873. What was that allowance when they were entirely supported by the parish? — Young men about 2s. 6d. a week; a man and his wife, without afamily, 5*., and in proportion, according to his children, upwards. 5874. That is a very low rate of wages, is it not ; do you find many young men subsisting upon 2s. 6d. a week? — I found them without any thing. 5875. Many unemployed? — I did; I found a good many during the veiy severe weather. .5876. Have 3^ou a list of the names of persons Avhom you found out of emjiloy- ment ? — I have ; I have it not with me now ; I did not expect that I should he called on to-day. 5S77. Canyon produce that list? — I can ; on Tuesday I will produce it, both of labourers in the parish of Ampthill and other parishes of the tmion. 5878. Were there a great many people employed by the parish in the manner you have described in the gravel pits or upon the road ? — In some parishes there were a great many. 5879. Was that a comfortable state of subsistence ? — Certainly not ; it was a state of things that the work-people would never desire to go back to. 5880. What would they desire ?— Work. 5S81 . Work has increased, you say ? — It has some little, not much. 5882. Did you ever hear from those persons what numbers were out of employ- ment ? — They used to tell me, those who were the advocates for the new law, if we had been here before the passing of the new law we should have found a great many more out of work than you will find now ; in some parishes there would have been as many as 40 upon the roads. 5883. In those parishes what is the present state of things ? — I now allude to the parish of Westoning. ,5884. Is that in the union ? — It is. .5 5^8.5. Will you describe that? — In the parish of Westoning 40 men were in what is called the gravel-pits before the new law was passed; we found there 34 out of work in the severe weather. On the 1 7th of February there were 40. 5886. Had they been long out of work ?— From three to six weeks ; I am only speaking from memory now. 5887. Did they say that they had ap])lied for work and were unable to obtain it?— They did, and that they were willing to work, but a great many had gone to the rciilroad ; butfjall that work is finished now. ,5888. Thirty-four ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 25 .--(SSS. Thirty-four remained unemployed ? — Thirty-four were unemployed on Mr. James rumtr. the day that I speak of. . 5889. Did they sav that there was more employment in that parish now than 23 March 1838. there had been formerly ? — I could not perceive that there was. 5890. How near was the railroad to which they went? — Eleven or twelve miles. 5891. Why did they leave the work upon the railroad? — It is being carried on a great many miles below. 5892. And they did not go farther in quest of work ? — ^There is no employ- ment to be had. 5893. Were those single men, or were they men with families ? — Both. .5894. But in what proportion ; were the greater part single men, or men with families ? — ^I should think equal numbers, but I shall be able to tell which are married and which are sinaile. 5895. They did not wish to revert to the old law ; they objected to the state of things under the old law '? — They do not wish to go back to that. 5896. Wliat was the objection they had to the old law r— The more tliinking part of them objected to the system of being together, being paid for doing nothing ; they imagined that it produced bad habits among the working people, by being congregated together in a gravel-pit ; what the working people want is, that each of the farmers should find them constant work, according to the number of acres of land ; that is the strongest feehng among the working people, as far as I could ascertain ; but when farmers have large portions of land, and are employing very few work people, it does not produce a good feeling among them. 5897. Are you any judge of farming yourself? — No, I am not. 5898. Wliat did you collect to be the impression among the agricultural persons in that country ; was the farming there bad or good ?-^Some of it is good and some is not. 5899. Generally speaking, is there much uncultivated land ? — I am not a farmer. 5900. But you saw and conversed with some farmers ? —Yes, we saw a good many, and had conversation with them. 5901. What was the impression which you derived; did you infer that the state of cultivation of the ground was bad or good ? — Still the cultivation might be much amended. 5902. Did it appear to be the general impression that a greater number of labourers might be employed with profit to the farmers? — \es ; I found many farmers who were employing four or five labourers to 100 acres of land; and, taking the number of acres in the parish, if every one had done that there would have been full employment for every one. 59p3- But the quantity of employment that can be used profitably upon a certain quantity of land depends upon the quality of the land, does it not ? — 1 should suppose it does, but I am not a farmer ; but some farmers I found employing a great many more labourers than others. 5904. Mr. Hodges.] Did you hear, from conversation with those farmers who employed this extra number of men, that they were employing them in a manner that would remunerate them for that employment ?— Most certainly ; their opinion was that it paid them for employing the labourers. 590.5. It was not upon any fancy work, but upon the regular cultivation of the farm, that those labourers were employed ?— Yes. 5906. Mr. Lidclell] It was not forced labour ?— Not at all. 5907. And your opinion is, that if every farmer had employed an equal number of labourers, in proportion to the extent of land that he possessed, there would be full employment for them all ? — Yes. 5908. Mr. Scrope.] Is it your opinion that if all the labourers were secure of employment, under an Act compelling the farmers to employ so many upon their farms, they would be so industrious as they are ? — I would never let the labourers be in a condition that the master could not turn them off. 5909. Then you would not agree to the farmer being obliged to emplov a cer- tain number of men, according to the quantity of land that he. held"?— The labourers did not wish that he should be compelled to employ such and such individuals ; but their opinion is, that every farmer should have labourers accord- ing to the quantity of land that he has ; that is the opinion of the labourers in that part of the country. -3.3 ■ D 5010. That 26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMiMITTEE Mr. James Turner. 59 10. That is to say, that all the labourers should be apportioned to the farmers of the parish ? — That is not their wish, for they wish to work for it. S3 March 1838. ^Qj , £)iclyou ever hear of any plan by which a farmer, so employing labourers, should be secure of getting a good day's work from them ? — No, I never did hear that. 5912. Mr. Hodges.] Did you find that the reluctance, on the part of other farmers to employ the men, arose from their supposing that extra labour employed upon the land did not yield a profit, or that it arose from the farmers being poor, and not able to pay the labourers ? — I think it did not arise from their being poor, but from their thinking that it would not be profitable for them. 5913. Mr. Liddell.] Any employment of labourers, beyond profitable employ- ment, would be forced labour ? — Yes ; but the opinion was, that it could be made profitable. 5914. Mr. Baines.^ You said that the farmers who employed labourers upon their land generally employed them profitably ?— That is the impression that I have. 5915. If that be so, do not you think that farmers for the most part would be disposed to employ labourers, if they could employ them for profit ? — If they could be led to believe it themselves. 5916. Do you think, if it be so, that the farmers' must not themselves be the best judges of that ? — They are not always so. 5917. Do you think that? — They are not. 5918. Chairman.] Whom do you think the better judge than the farmer, as to whether he can employ labourers profitably upon his farm ? — He may reasonably think this ; that by not employing the men, he may save the wages ; on the other hand, that if he did employ them, it would be an advantage if those laboui'ers were employed. 5919. Then he comes to the conclusion that labour cannot be employed profitably ? — He does. 5920. If he thinks that the profit resulting from the labourers' work wiU not enable him to pay the wages, with the usual profits of capital, he may suppose that the labour cannot be employed profitably ? — Yes ; but he may hold wrong opinions. 5921 . Whom do you think is a proper judge of that ? — I am not a farmer. M' APPENDIX. ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 27 APPENDIX. AMPTHILL UNION. To the Guardians of the Poor of the Ampthill Union, in the county of Bedford ■ to the Clerk or Clerks to the Justices of Petty Sessions, held for the division or divisions of the said County in which the parishes and places comprised in the said Union are situate ; and to all others whom it may concern. WE, the Poor Law Commissioners for England and Wales, in pursuance of the provisions of an Act passed in the fourth and fifth years of the reign of his present Majesty Kino- William the Fourth, intituled, "An Act for the Amendment and better Administration of the Laws relating to the Poor in England and Wales," do hereby order and direct that the paupers of the respective classes and sexes described in the schedule hereunto annexed, who may now or hereafter be received and maintained in the workhouse or workhouses o'f the Ampthill Union, shall, during the period of their residence therein, be fed, dieted and main- tained with the food and in the manner described and set forth in the said schedule, any thing in any former order to the contrary notwithstanding. And we do hereby further order and direct, that every master of the workhouse or work- houses of the said union shall cause two or more copies of this our order and of the said schedule, printed in a legible manner and in a large type, to be hung up in the most public places of such workhouse or workhouses, and to renew the same from time to time, so that it be always kept fair and legible, on pain of incurring, in case of disobedience, the penalties provided by the aforesaid Act. Given under our hands and seal, this 22d day of January, in the year 1836. 0T. Frankland Lewis. J. G. S. Lefevre. Geo. Nicholk. DIETARY FOR ABLE-BODIED MEN AND WOMEN. BrEAKV.»5T. Dinner. Supper. Bread. Gruel. Bread. Meat. Polaioes. Soup. Pudding. Bread. Cheese. Broili. Sunday 4 finU. oz. 4 oz. 4 lb. 1 pints. OS. OJ. 4 6 01. pints. Monday 4 ^ 4 '^* Tuesday 4 1* 4 4 1 _ 4 6 IJ Wednesday 4 ^h 4 _ li Thursday - 4 1* 4 4 1 4 6 l' Frida}' 4 n. — __ H 'x Saturday 4 H 4 " ~ 1^ 6 - • Recipe for the Soup :— 14 gallons of water, 2 quarts of peas, i bushel of potatoes, 5 lbs. of flour. 1 8 lbs. of beef. '^ . ' Bread Meat Soup Per Week. - 5 lb. 80Z. - 2 pots 1 pint Cheese Gruel Broth - - 4 oz. - 10 J pints. - 4I pints. Old people of 60 years of age and upwards may be allowed 1 oz. of tea, 7 oz. of butter, and 8 oz of sugar per week, in lieu of gruel for breakfast, if deemed expedient to make this change. Children, under nine years of age, to be dieted at discretion ; above nine, to be allowed the same quantities as the able-bodied. Sick to be dieted as directed by the medical officer. D 2 NINETEENTH REPORT ;ELECT COMMfTTEE ON THK :^~fr POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT ; AVITH THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Ordered, by Tlit House of Commoust to be i'rinlsd, 23 March 1838. 2.33- UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA Al uus AiMVjti-t= THE UNIVERSITY LIBRARY This book is DUE on the last date stamped below uwiRL #2 196^ Wii 2V ^9, Form L-9-15m-2,'36 • UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA AT LOS ANGELES ^^ A «-k-«r D 000 439 205 6 ->fHv \