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• CONFIDENTIAL 
 
 mi hi »iii ninim nmriiniiiiHi nminmmiiimi iiiiiiiimn m nm Ulilffin 
 
 PROCEEDINGS 
 
 Trans-Continental 
 
 — 4. 
 
 . ASSOCIATION $ 
 
 GENERAL MEETING 
 
 San Francisco, January 12 to 22 
 
 " m,,, " m; " 1 — "" ,: 
 
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 7 
 
 si+h 
 
PROCEEDINGS OF MEETING. 
 
 Meeting convened at 2.30 p. m. 
 
 The following roads were represented: 
 
 Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, - h 
 
 Atlantic & Pacific, 
 Burlington <fc Missouri River, 
 
 Trans-Continental Association/ 
 
 (General Meeting,) 
 
 Palace Hotel, 
 San Francisco, Jan. 12, 1885. 
 
 Central Pacific, 
 
 7*, 
 
 (J. F. GODDARD. 
 
 < J. S. Leeds. 
 (W. F. White. 
 
 G. W. Ristine. 
 
 j Thos. Miller. 
 1 P. S. Eustis. 
 
 f A.N. Towne. 
 •< J. C. Stubbs. 
 (R. Gray. 
 
 S. K. Hooper. 
 
 S. W. Eccles. 
 
 Denver & Rio Grande, - **' 
 Denver & Rio Grande Western, 
 
 Galveston, Harrisburg & San Antonio, j j' (V r TU bbs 
 
 Northern Pacific, - 
 
 Oregon Railway & Navigation, - 
 
 Southern Pacific, - 
 Texas & Pacific, 
 
 Dnion Pacific, 
 
 (T. F. Oakes. 
 
 < J. M. Hannaford. 
 
 (Chas. S. Fee. 
 
 Prescott. 
 
 (C. H. P: 
 
 < J. Muir. 
 ( A. L. St 
 
 (A.N. To 
 1 J. C. Sti 
 ( R. Gray. 
 
 Stokes. 
 
 A. N. Towne. 
 Stubbs. 
 
 H. B. Smith, Jr. 
 
 T. L. Kimball. 
 
 P. P. Shelby. 
 \ C. S. Stebbins. 
 I J. W. Morse. 
 
 G. CANNON, 
 Acting Commissioner. 
 
SSJSTw. The Commissioner— In adjourning the Chicago meeting 
 marks. ^o ^j s p i n t } many important matters were left over for 
 disposition here. Among others I might mention the ques- 
 tion of percentages, the allotment by the Arbitrator ap- 
 pointed at the October meeting not being acceptable to 
 several of the members for continuance beyond December 
 31st, also the election of a Commissioner. We will take up 
 whatever you may determine the most important to dispose 
 of first. I might add, also, that a reorganization of the 
 Association was contemplated. This, I do not think, can 
 be accomplished effectively and successfully until you agree 
 upon a redistribution of the revenue. I think that subject 
 should receive your first attention. It seems to me that if 
 you agree to make a pool upon percentages which are to be 
 operative from January 1st, you would have a good ground 
 to work upon, otherwise I do not see that the taking up of 
 other matters would do any particular good. What do you 
 think about this, Mr. Towne ? 
 
 Mr. Towne— While there are others here who can judge 
 of the situation probably better than myself, the proposi- 
 tion would seem to me as a good one. I think, that with 
 the percentages disposed of, other matters would be much 
 easier to handle. 
 
 p -?S s, ?oo, Mr. Stubbs — I have a matter which should receive imme- 
 
 rates forl884 
 
 coutinued diate attention. You all understand that the old rates — 
 
 until Janu- 
 
 uary2o. that j s> the rates prevailing previous to December 31st, by 
 Pacific Mail, were continued until the sailing of the steamer 
 of January 10th. No provision for such business has been 
 made beyond that date. 
 
 I move that these rates be continued until and including the steamer of 
 January 20th, 1885. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Kimball. 
 
 Adopted. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — Mr. Chairman, I think there may be some 
 here who would like to understand fully the situation as re- 
 
garcls our relations with the Trunk Lines. Mr. Stubbs, sub- 
 sequent to our Chicago meeting, had a conference with the 
 representatives of these lines, and, for myself, am somewhat 
 in the dark as to the result, although I have received some 
 indirect information. Probably Mr. Stubbs will give us a 
 little light upon the subject. 
 
 Mr. Morse — Is the Burlington and Missouri Kiver repre- 
 sented here to-day ? 
 
 The Commissioner — They are not represented to-day. 
 
 Mr. Towxe — Do you understand that they are to be pres- 
 ent during this session ? 
 
 The Commissioner —I would state that I am in receipt of 
 advice to the effect that Messrs. Miller and Eustis are en 
 route, but are twelve hours late; therefore, we can hardly 
 expect their presence before to-morrow morning. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — The Trunk Lines have agreed to adopt the Mr stubbs- 
 
 <-" ' report on 
 
 tariff of January 1st, but refuse to become parties to any Trmik 
 
 * ' r j -Lin, - 
 
 special contracts. I tried my best to argue the question, tji 
 
 1 t -mrn special ratei 
 
 but they all said that the argument was stale. While they 
 treated me with every courtesy, they did not wish to do it. 
 They preferred to try it a year without any contracts. They 
 further said that while they preferred that no contracts 
 should be made, still they would not object if their western 
 connections joined with us in making contracts. They made 
 
 i condition to that, that the "Sunset Route" should 
 
 maintain rates, and should not enter the territory west of 
 
 rk, Philadelphia and Baltimore; all Coast points east 
 
 of that are open to the "Sunset Route." The New England 
 
 lines, although they received a communication, and indeed 
 
 commendation, from the Trunk Lines, to adopt this tar- 
 iff, ignored the recommendation, and passed a resolution 
 that, having had experience with the California business, 
 they proposed, on and after January 1st, to charge their 
 local rales to Chicago. The Trunk Lines, after making their 
 eement with me, said they would take the matter up with 
 
6 
 
 the New England lines, and try and persuade them to adopt 
 the tariff, but did not think that they could do it for eight 
 or ten days. I agreed, or they suggested, that I should go 
 and see the New England Committee, which I did, and after 
 two or three hours' talk they passed a resolution to the effect 
 that owing to the assurances of Mr. Stubbs, that the "Sun- 
 set" would maintain rates, they would adopt the tariff. That 
 leaves all New England open to the "Sunset," just as it was 
 before. 
 
 Mr. Eistine — Mr. Stubbs, the Trunk Lines had agreed to 
 this tariff when I left New York. It was understood that I 
 should publish it. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I have not the Minutes with me, but I have 
 at my office a transcript of the entire conversation. I made the 
 point with Mr. Hayden, who did most of the talking, that you 
 had sent a telegram to Mr. Guilford, pressing that they adopt 
 this tariff until January 31, and that you had received a dis- 
 patch from Mr. Guilford, saying either that the Trunk Lines 
 would, or he thought they would. They then called my 
 attention to the fact, that another telegram had been sent, 
 saying as they understood that Mr. Stubbs was to be in New 
 York on Monday, they proposed to wait his arrival before 
 giving definite answers. 
 
 Mr. Eistine — The telegram was never received. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — They took the position that they did not 
 agree to anything. 
 
 Mr. Eistine — They did not as a body, but after the meet- 
 ing on Saturday afternoon, Mr. Midgley, and I believe 
 Messrs. Goddard and Hannaford, with myself interviewed 
 Mr. Guilford upon the situation, and I asked Mr. G. partic- 
 ularly as to their position regarding the new tariff, and sug- 
 gested that we had better go ahead and print the tariff, he 
 replied, "Yes, you had better go ahead." 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— They assumed the position, and I have the 
 record, that they had made no agreement whatever. 
 
Mr. PtiSTJXE — I merely raised the point to see whether 
 they had changed their minds since we were there. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I think probably the telegram referred to 
 arrived after you had left. 
 
 Mr. Eistixe — I certainly never received it. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Now, Mr. Commissioner, I think it would be subject of 
 
 special ra 
 Pittsburg 
 aiid west. 
 
 in order before going any further, for the Association to Pittsburgh 
 
 determine whether they will undertake to secure the assent 
 of the Middle and Western States Lines and the Pacific 
 Coast Association Lines, and determine whether our own 
 lines shall make contracts on the original basis, that is with 
 a few of the large jobbers on a per centage or discount basis. 
 
 The Commissioner — That i3 from Pittsburg and west. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Independent of the Trunk Lines, whether it 
 would be expedient to do so or not, and while I bring that 
 before the Association, I want it clearly and definitely under- 
 stood that the Central Pacific does not " care a rush " what 
 you do about it, notwithstanding what the newspapers say. 
 
 The Commissioner — I would like to ask whether Mr. 
 Stubbs thinks that everything has been done with the Trunk 
 Lines that can be done. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I do. I would not waste five minutes in 
 discussing the matter with them. 
 
 The Commissioner — I notice about 45 per cent, of the 
 business emanates from New York and common points. 
 
 Mr. STUBBS— My impression is, that the best way to treat 
 them now is to go ahead. They were evidently determined 
 not to join in any special contracts, believing that it hardly 
 paid them for the confusion in their accounts, incident to 
 this manner of conducting the business, and I think we had 
 better go ahead and ignore them in this matter ; indeed, 
 make no special contracts on Atlantic Coast business, and 
 let the few months that are to follow determine who was 
 right, the Trans-Continental or the Trunk Lines. While 
 
s 
 
 they profess to think very little of the California business, 
 when they see a large volume of freight leaving the lines 
 and going round Cape Horn, as I think they will, it will be 
 an easy matter for us to go to them and say, "This is the 
 result." In order to get the business we must make some 
 special rates, and while it is going to make it an expensive 
 experiment I see no other way to handle it. 
 
 The Commissioner — Mr. Kimball, I would like an ex- 
 pression from you on this point, if you please. 
 
 Mr. Kimball — I think all understand my views upon the 
 general question of special contracts. I have always been 
 in favor of muking them, and have seen no reason yet for 
 changing my views, but, as Mr. Stubbs says, the position 
 of the Trunk Lines has been taken — they are opposed to 
 this manner of doing the business, and my advices from the 
 Pacific Coast Association show that those Associated Lines 
 are in perfect accord with the Trunk Lines on that question, 
 and I think that we should consider, from this time on, that 
 special contracts are abandoned. We shall learn a lesson 
 inside of six months, certainly inside of twelve, that we 
 have made a mistake, and that the experience of the Central 
 and Union Pacific roads, in handling this business from 
 Coast to Coast, should have been taken for something by 
 this Association, and by the lines east of us; but we are 
 willing to go into the boat with the rest of you and make 
 a trial. 
 
 Position of 
 Eastern 
 Lines on 
 special rates 
 
 The Commissioner— Mr. Goddard, 
 from you on this point. 
 
 I should like to hear 
 
 Mr. Goddard — My understanding of the situation, as 
 stated by Mr. Stubbs, is this: The Trunk Lines start out 
 by stating that they will not be parties to any special 
 contracts. Then you have their statement that if inter- 
 mediate lines wish to join in them they would not object. 
 Is not that their position, Mr. Stubbs ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I do not think I stated it in that way. I 
 said that the Trunk Lines would not become parties to any 
 
9 
 
 special contracts; that they preferred that no special con- 
 tracts should be made; that is, by any portion of the line, 
 but that all parties to the through line should adhere rigidly 
 to the tariff; yet, if their western connections wished to 
 join the Trans-Continental Lines in making special con- 
 tracts, which would not involve them in the rebates, require 
 them, the Trunk Lines, to bear any portion of them, they 
 would not object, that is, they would make that much of a 
 concession, from their desire that no contracts should be 
 made whatever. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — I thought they left it optional with the 
 intermediate lines? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — They will not pay one cent off the published 
 tariff rates. 
 
 Upon request, the Commissioner read the following tel- 
 egram : 
 
 "New York, December 30, 1884. 
 G. W. Ristine, San FYancisco: r 
 
 We have to-day agreed with Mr. Stubbs to put in effect, January 1st, the Telegram 
 
 proposed tariff of through rates from New York, Philadelphia and Baltimore from Trunk 
 
 to Pacific Coast. No special contracts to be made. No pool agreed upon. t. C. A ' 
 
 'Sunset' to be excluded from all interior points, west of points named. Mr. ^ la88itl <: a - 
 
 Stul.l.s will go to Boston to confer with New England roads regarding traffic Tariff No. l, 
 
 from points east of New York, these roads having signified their desire to deal jan \ V s ">- 
 with tin- question themselves. The Trunk Lines did not feel at liberty to act 
 as to traffic from that territory. 
 
 (Signed) N. Guilford." 
 
 Mr. STUBBS — They had written up, and their advice to the 
 \ England Executive Committee was to the effect that 
 no contracts were to be made. Mr. Guilford had that im- 
 pression, that I agreed for the Trans-Continental Associa- 
 tion that no contracts should be made by any of the lines. 
 I called for the stenographer, and had him go over his notes, 
 and he found that I had drawn out of Mr. Hayden the 
 admission that if the lines west of the Trunk Lines' western 
 termini wished to join with us in any contracts, they would 
 Dot object. In every other respect Mr. Guilford's statement 
 is correct. 
 
10 
 
 A° S T i0 & s f ^■ r * Goddard — I n answer to your question, Mr. Chairman, 
 frai°co?- en ' * ne P os ^ion of our compauy has been pretty clearly defined 
 tract plan. j n the past. When our line was opened to California, and 
 conference was held in San Francisco between the repre- 
 sentatives of the Union Pacific, the Central Pacific and 
 myself, to determine upon the plan to be adopted for the 
 following year. I then said, and do not hesitate to say now, 
 that I oppose the general contract plan. I have been op- 
 posed to this basis for the conduct of Pacific Coast busi- 
 ness ever since, but always expressing the thought that it 
 was necessary to make a certain number of special contracts. 
 We have given due deference to the experience of the older 
 roads in this matter, and after discussing the subject each 
 year, as the record shows, this system of handling the busi- 
 ness has been continued in the old way, upon the old basis 
 up to the present time. There are many arguments on both 
 sides of the question, but I still think to-day, in conson- 
 ance with my expressions in the past, that a few special con- 
 tracts should be made. I do not, however, believe that it is 
 the best policy, or will bring the greatest revenue, to foster 
 a continuance of the general plan. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — As I understood it, our meeting in October 
 settled that question, that as a general plan the system of 
 contracting was abandoned; that we agreed to make a few, 
 compared with the 2200 or 2300 we had previously; that we 
 recommended that plan to the Pacific Coast Association, and 
 they agreed to it; that we recommended that plan to the 
 representatives of the Middle and Western States Associa- 
 tion, and that they agreed to it; that we recommended this 
 plan to the Trunk Lines, and that they refused to agree to it. 
 Now, the question as raised by Mr. Kimball, or perhaps 
 suggested by myself, is whether, in view of the action of the 
 Trunk Lines, we should resolve that we will have no special 
 contracts from Atlantic Coast or from any other points, and 
 work this year squarely on the open tariff. 
 
 Mr. Towne — If so much of the business comes from the 
 interior, why should we be so much dependent upon the 
 
11 
 
 Trunk Lines ? A very large tonnage coming to this coast, 
 originates at the interior points, Pittsburgh, Buffalo and 
 west thereof, in which the Trunk Lines have no voice. 
 
 The Commissioner — In answer to that question, Mr. of^nwSe 8 
 Towne, we have prepared a statement of the business for ?J r d ocIS! 
 the month of October. We have never made showing in 
 this manner before, but it has been a necessity on account 
 of the accounting under the pool. The percentages of ton- 
 nage and revenue from the different points stand as fol- 
 lows : 
 
 From New York and common points Tonnage, 38 . 31 Revenue, 45 . 59 
 
 " Pittsburgh " 
 11 Cleveland " 
 
 (C {( 
 
 u 
 
 12.52 
 
 8.77 
 
 8.27 
 5.48 
 
 11 Cincinnati " 
 
 It <( 
 
 <( 
 
 11.26 
 
 10.68 
 
 " Chicago " 
 ' 4 St. Louis ) 
 and New >■ ' ' 
 Orleans ) 
 
 <« 
 
 << 
 
 16.37 
 8.58 
 
 17.40 
 7.36 
 
 " Missouri River 
 
 common points 
 
 " 
 
 4.19 
 
 5.22 
 
 Mr. Towxe — What percentage do you calculate as from 
 New York? 
 
 The Commissioner — Tonnage, 38.31 from New York and 
 common points. 
 
 Mr. Towne— What percentage do you determine as com- 
 ing from New York proper ? 
 
 The Commissioner — I cannot say. The tonnage subject 
 to direct water competition is 38.31, which leaves 61.69 from 
 Pittsburgh and west thereof. 
 
 Mi — That leaves 61.69 subject to special con- 
 
 ts. I understood Mr. Kimball to say that his advices 
 from the rail connections of the Union Pacific are that since 
 the Trunk Lines refuse to make special contracts, they also 
 ie. I don't know, therefore, that we have anything to 
 bout. What are the percentages East-bound for Oc- 
 tober ? 
 
12 
 
 Plan of pro- 
 cedure. 
 
 Terms of 
 territorial 
 division be- 
 tween the 
 Northern 
 and South- 
 ern Lines. 
 
 Two pools to 
 be formed. 
 
 Roads com- 
 posing East- 
 ern pool. 
 
 Roads eom- 
 posingWest- 
 ern pool. 
 
 The Commissioner— 
 
 To New York and common points Tonnage, 26.98 Revenue, 31.78 
 
 "Pittsburgh" " " " 1.36 " 153 
 
 "Cleveland " " ■■ " 0.35 " 0.42 
 
 "Cincinnati" " " " 4.20 " 5.99 
 
 "Chicago " " " " 34.25 " 30.21 
 
 "lew^ai} " " " 10 ' 80 " = 12 ' 68 
 
 1 ' Missouri River common points " 22.06 " 17 . 39 
 
 Mr. Kistine — Mr. Stubbs, did you see Mr. Midgley on 
 your return ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I did not get an opportunity to see him. 
 
 Mr. Ristine —Mr. Shelby, have you ? 
 
 Mr. Shelby — I have not. 
 
 Mr. Ristine— Mr. Kimball ? 
 
 Mr. Kimball — No, sir, but have seen parties that have 
 seen him. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs offered the following: 
 
 Whereas, it has been suggested by the Acting Commissioner that it would 
 be better first to distribute the revenue which is proposed to be pooled, be it 
 resolved that the plan of procedure shall be to — 
 
 First— Determine the terms of territorial division between the Northern 
 Pacific, Oregon Kailway & Navigation and Oregon Short Line Companies on 
 the one hand, and the balance of the members of the Association on the 
 other hand. 
 
 Second— That after said territorial division shall have been made, two 
 pools shall be formed — one to consist of the lines or companies, members of 
 this Association connecting with the Central Pacific R. R. at Ogden, the 
 Atlantic & Pacific R. R. at Albuquerque, and the Southern Pacific R. R. at 
 Deming and El Paso respectively; the other to be composed of the Central 
 Pacific, Atlantic & Pacific and the Southern Pacific companies. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — My object in introducing that resolution is 
 to simplify the question of distribution of the revenue. By 
 it we will avoid all the complications that evidently floored 
 Mr. Tucker in his consideration of the question. I do not 
 think there is any question but what the Central, Southern 
 and Atlantic & Pacific Companies can agree as to what is 
 a fair division as between them. 
 
13 • 
 
 Mr. Tiistixe — Would it not be better to defer discussion 
 of that proposition until the arrival of the B. & M. 
 representatives ? 
 
 The Commissioner — I might state in this connection that ^rS^t 
 I have a statement of freight earnings for the month of f™£ *» r p ^ 
 October under the Pool, which, when the Association is tober - 
 ready to consider the question of percentages, I would be 
 glad to present, if so desired. It would be utterly im- 
 possible to collect sufficient passenger data to make a 
 similar statement. 
 
 Mr. Towne — What was your last month's statement of 
 Passenger business? 
 
 The Commissioner— July. For Freight we have October. 
 
 Mr. Shelby— We have not received September yet on 
 Freight. 
 
 The Commissioner — It went forward to your office several 
 days ago. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— I offer this resolution for consideration as to 
 whether it would not be the best way to settle it. 
 
 An informal discussion occurred upon the question of the 
 resolution. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs stated that it was desired to make the pools 
 independent; that as it existed at the present time, the 
 terminal lines were forced to pay over money to eastern 
 connections — lines which could not be considered as com- 
 petitive with the terminal companies — and claimed that, 
 consequently, the companies represented by him had suffered 
 an enormous and unreasonable loss. 
 
 The Commissioner— The resolution is not seconded. 
 
 Mr. STUBBS— The Central Pacific will submit it, and the 
 Southern Pacific will second it. 
 
 Mr.«GoDDAHD— Mr. Chairman, it seems to mo that this 
 resolution is one that requires consideration. We do not 
 
14 
 
 Commis- 
 sioner's re- 
 marks. 
 
 Shall spe- 
 cial Orange 
 rate apply 
 to St. Paul? 
 
 want to vote upon this proposition hastily, and while I am 
 as anxious as any one to get through with this work and 
 return home, I would like time for its consideration. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Cannot each one take a copy of it to-night? 
 I do not ask for its immediate discussion. 
 
 It was ordered that copies be prepared. 
 
 Mr. Kimball — I would make a suggestion, that as every 
 member of this Association will be interviewed by repre- 
 sentatives of your local press, that we have it understood 
 that no information regarding the actions of this meeting or 
 discussions which may take place in our meeting shall be 
 given to the press, except through the presiding officer. I 
 make that as a motion, adding that the presiding officer shall 
 exercise his judgment as to what matter shall be communi- 
 cated to them. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Kistine. 
 
 Adopted. 
 
 Adjourned until 9.30 a. m. 
 
 Tuesday, January 13, 1885 — Morning Session. 
 Meeting convened at 10 a. m. 
 All members represented. 
 
 The Commissioner — I would like to present a matter which 
 should receive your immediate attention. Regarding the 
 rates on Oranges east-bound — there are several cars of that 
 class of business in transit for St. Paul. There was made 
 at the last meeting of the Association a rate of $1.00 per 
 100 pounds from California terminals to Missouri Eiver 
 points. Now, the question arises, does that rate apply to 
 St. Paul? The special was issued by the Commissioner's 
 Office, as applying from California terminals to " Missouri 
 River points," and not to " Missouri River common points." 
 The question which presents itself now is as to whether St. 
 Paul was intended to be included. • 
 
15 
 
 Mr. Ristine — I do not see why it should not apply to St. 
 Paul. St. Paul takes the Missouri River rate. The agree- 
 ment covers this. 
 
 Mr. Gray— There seems to be a question as to the roads 
 accepting the rate. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — They have submitted a proposition to make 
 Omaha rates to St. Paul, based on Chicago divisions. 
 
 The Commissioner — As the special is now issued it would 
 not cover St. Paul; it would not cover Houston or Galves- 
 ton. It should have been issued, " Missouri River common 
 points/' in which case it would have covered those points. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — It is understood that the term "Missouri 
 River points " covers Galveston, Houston and St. Paul, I 
 take it; but when you say "Missouri River common points," 
 it may affect some points which take an arbitrary on in 
 order to take Missouri River rates. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Mr. Commissioner, as a preliminary matter blb. smith, 
 
 Jr. to reprt'- 
 
 I will say that I have a dispatch from Mr. Olds, saying that sen'ttheT.& 
 their agent here, Mr. H. B. Smith, Jr., will represent them 
 in this meeting, and asking me to give him advice. I now 
 move 
 
 That Mr. Smith be admitted as the representative of the Texas & Pacifie 
 Company. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Goddard. 
 \<lopted. 
 
 The Commissioner— We will consider the Orange rate as 
 applying to St. Paul. What do you say, Mr. Stubbs ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I understood that it applied to Kansas City, orange rate 
 Omaha and common points. I cannot recall exactly the s< 
 wording of it, but presume that the Minutes would be con- 
 clusive as to that, and at the same time, as I recollect it, 
 the Commissioner was to undertake to get that rate to 
 Chicago and St. Louis. 
 
16 
 
 Mr. Goddaed — I am not sure, but it seems to me that St. 
 Paul ought to be admitted to the rate. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — I should say so. 
 
 Agreed. 
 
 The Commissioner — Shall we take up the unfinished 
 business of yesterday ? Are there any other matters which 
 require immediate action ? 
 
 Informal discussion. 
 
 Rateoncast Mr. Stubbs — Mr. Commissioner, what was done at Chi- 
 fromst. casro about rate on Cast Iron Pipe from St. Louis. 
 
 Louis. " D r 
 
 The Commissioner — It was agreed to make a rate of 75 
 cents per 100 lbs., if the St. Louis-Kansas City lines would 
 agree. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Did those lines agree to the rate. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — No, they would not. It was agreed to make 
 a 75-cent rate, provided the St. Louis lines would stand in. 
 I addressed a communication to Commissioner Midgley 
 before leaving Chicago, but he declined on the general prin- 
 ciple that no special contracts were to be made during the 
 month of January. He claimed that it would be a "special," 
 and different from the tariff. In advising Mr. Midgley of 
 the action of this Association, I said that we hoped he would 
 secure the assent of his lines to the rate, as it was one abso- 
 lutely necessary as against Cape Horn competition. 
 
 The Commissioner introduced a letter from the Commis- 
 sioner of the Pacific Coast Association, reading as follows: 
 
 Chicago, Dec. 24, 1884. 
 Geo. W. Ristine, Commissioner, San Francisco: 
 
 Letter from DeAB SlE YoUV letter of the 19th inst *' re g ardiri g a 75 cent rate en Iron 
 
 J. w. Midge- Pipe from St. Louis to the Pacific Coast, and a rate of $1.00 per cwt. on Or- 
 
 to ttfeCast ail ges in car lots from California to Chicago and St. Louis, came duly to hand 
 
 Iron Pipe I h aV e deferred replying thereto until opportunity could be had to confer with 
 
 rate. ran0 at least two or three of our people, and ascertain their views. 
 
17 
 
 We should look upon both requests in the light of special rates; and as it 
 was our understanding that nothing of that character s-hould be made prior to 
 January 31st ensuing, pending the anticipated agreement between your As- 
 sociation and its Eastern connections, we feel like deferring action thereon. 
 
 In regard to the proposed rate on Oranges, I may say say, however, that it 
 is so exceedingly low that we should not, in any event, regard it favorably. 
 We are constantly carrying Oranges in car lots to Missouri river points and 
 to Colorado, and for such service receive 42% cents per cwt. from Chicago, 
 and 34 cents per cwt. from St. Louis to the Missouri River. Your proposition 
 would allow us only 14 cents; hence you will see that we have little incentive 
 to encourage it. I remember that during the New York meeting, when Mr. 
 Vilas complained of certain rates on Canned Goods which had been forced 
 upon the Trunk Lines, Mr. Stubbs made the point that it was a much better 
 division than the rate at which they carried a good deal of freight. He could 
 not apply s-uch a remark to us. There is no business in our Association, 
 however cheap, on which we receive anything like such rates as those which 
 we are asked to accept on California business. 
 
 (Signed), J. W. Midglet, 
 
 Commissioner. 
 
 Mr, Stubbs — Now, the answer to that would be that these 
 are east-bound Oranges, and he carries no Oranges east- 
 bound at all. The Chicago market is supplied with Oranges 
 shipped up from Florida via New Orleans and boat, which 
 the Pacific Coast Association lines do not share in at all, 
 and that this is just so much new business to them. 
 
 Mr. Eistixe — I telegraphed him the day before receiving 
 that letter, urging him to accept both rates, but he again 
 declined. 
 
 Mr. Shelby — The Wabash signified to me their willing- ^ 8 JJJ 8io11 
 ness to participate in the 75- cent rate on Iron Pipe. S? n-ou*" 1 
 
 Mr. STUBBS — Cast Iron Pipe for the Coast has been almost 
 wholly supplied by Simp kins, an agent here, who, I do not 
 believe, ever shipped a pound over our route. Large quan- 
 tities have come round Cape Horn. The fact is, all 
 the trade relations of dealers in Iron Pipe on this Coast 
 with Atlantic Coast shippers or producers, and 
 when we made arrangements with the Shickle, Harrison 
 & Howard Iron Company, it was with the idea that we 
 would remove that business from the Atlantic Coast to 
 the St. Louis district, away from the Atlantic seaboard and 
 
 Pipe rates 
 
18 
 
 liability of Cape Horn competition — get it fixed there; and 
 while at present we cannot get more than perhaps one cent 
 per ton per mile for carrying it, there may be, in the near 
 future, an opportunity to get better rates. At any rate, it 
 would be taking so much tonnage away from our competi- 
 tors, and would be bringing this traffic nearer our reach. 
 
 Mr. Shelby — They can manufacture just as cheaply in St. 
 Louis as in New York. 
 
 5teout P o e f ^e Commissioner — How would an Iron Pipe rate out of 
 Memphis. Memphis work, so as to take care of the Chattanooga Iron 
 Foundry and Pipe Works, etc.? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— I would make a rate so as to take care of the 
 freight from these western points. We may only get one 
 cent per ton per mile, but we ought to foster the business. 
 The Chattanooga men, you know, are further off than the 
 St. Louis men. I don't believe we could do as well there, 
 owing to the position of the Louisville and Nashville road. 
 
 The Commissioner— The Chattanooga Foundry and Pipe 
 Works are anxious that we put in a rate from Memphis and 
 New Orleans. They say the arbitraries from Chattanooga 
 to New Orleans and Memphis are perfectly satisfactory; this 
 side is the trouble. If they can get rate from Memphis and 
 New Orleans which would enable them to handle their goods 
 into California, they would be happy. This they are very 
 anxious to do. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — Suppose we say, if that is satisfactory to 
 them, that we will make proportionate rates per miJe west. 
 That ought to be satisfactory to them. 
 
 Discussion deferred. 
 
 The Commissioner — I have here pool statements of the 
 October Freight business. I have not shown the Consoli- 
 dated Eeport, because I thought it not best to do so. None 
 of the members have as yet seen it. If it is the unanimous 
 desire of this meeting, I shall take pleasure in presenting it 
 for your consideration. 
 
19 
 
 Mr. Towxe — We will listen to it at half past-one, if you 
 will adjourn to that time. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Eccles. 
 
 Recess until 1.30 p. m. 
 
 Tuesday, January 13 — Afternoon Session. 
 Meeting convened at 2 p. m. 
 All members represented. 
 The Commissioner — The matter of presentation to the As- « 
 
 r Resume of 
 
 sociation of the Consolidated Report of Freight business JJJJj^jJJ' 
 
 under the pool for the month of October, with statistics Po°ist»te- 
 
 thereon was broached this morning before we adjourned, and 
 
 I understood it to be the consent of all that we should take it 
 
 up on our assembling this afternoon. I find, upon making 
 
 up tbis statement and taking the actual tonnage carried, that 
 
 it would give an average rate per 100 pounds of I1.17J,. 
 
 Mr. Shelby— From the River to San Francisco? 
 
 The Commissioner — Yes; that is, taking it upon the actual 
 number of pounds carried, which, however, is not correct. 
 It is correct so far as the actual tonnage carried is con- 
 cerned, but the error lies in the duplication of the tonnage, 
 and the allowance made by agreement of $4.80 per ton to the 
 road carrying the excess tonnage for that service, cuts an 
 entirely different figure in the distributing of the account. 
 Now, I find that the Central Pacific actually earned, on the 
 basis of the percentages agreed, $125,803.39. 
 
 Upon the request of Mr. Stubbs the Commissioner gave 
 the percentages of tonnage and revenue as to each member 
 of the Association for the month of October. 
 
 Mr. Kimball asked for the earnings for October, 1883. 
 
 The Commissioner stated that he could not give a correct 
 and reliable statement of the business for the month In 
 
20 
 
 question, as it was impossible, owing to the late date upon 
 which the Association was organized, to gather sufficient 
 information therefor, and further, that the business for 
 October, 1883, could not be regarded in a comparative 
 sense, from the fact that at that time only San Francisco 
 and Portland were treated, while under the present statement 
 all California terminals are included. 
 
 The reading of the statement being concluded Mr. Stubbs 
 stated his desire that a computation be made, showing how 
 much the lines west of Ogden, Albuquerque, Deming and 
 El Paso had to pay the lines east, which could not be 
 regarded as competitive with the lines west of those points. 
 
 Statement was placed in course of preparation. 
 
 An informal discussion followed the result of the showing. 
 
 Discussion Mr. Stubbs objected to the including of the Bay Trans- 
 in g s.F.Bay fer charges in the settlement of the pool accounts, and said: 
 from pool If you read the agreement literally, by an oversight of 
 
 mine it would appear that we should pool our local earnings. 
 
 The Bay Transfer is not subject to the pool. 
 
 The Commissioner, on question, stated that the Omaha 
 Bridge transfer was included, and that it would be very 
 much easier for the Commissioner's Office if the transfers 
 were excluded ; that the divisions could be arrived at more 
 speedily than under the present arrangement. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — 1 do not see that it makes any difference 
 whether it is pooled or excluded. Each line must contrib- 
 ute a fixed amount on the business they haul. I do not see 
 that transfer comes into the question at all. If $1.00 is the 
 agreed rate between point and point, $1.00 goes into the 
 pool. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — The difference is this: the transfer across 
 this Bay should be deducted from the gross earnings of the 
 Central Pacific before showing that account, as it is entirely 
 non-competitive and local. The Bridge at Omaha is a por- 
 tion of the line, and just as much competitive as any other 
 
OP T»I 
 
 21 i^NlVEBSITi: 
 
 portion of the road. In the case of the transfer here there 
 is a special allowance made for it. 
 
 Mr. Shelby — You might with as much propriety exclude 
 your entire earnings from Sacramento. 
 
 Discussion deferred. 
 
 The Commissioner— Action upon Mr. Stubbs' resolution 2^^. 
 of yesterday was deferred until to-day. Do you now desire JJ£n 8t on*Mr. 
 to take it up ? Mr. Hannaford, I would like to hear from s 
 
 resolution— 
 
 you on the subject, as you are more interested in the first 8ee P a « e 12 
 clause of the resolution than any one else. 
 
 Mr. Shelby — You must not forget that the Oregon Short 
 Line is now completed. 
 
 Mr, Hannaford — I have no objection to the first clause, 
 which seems to be the only one that refers to us. 
 
 The Commissioner — Mr. Kimball, have you any sugges- 
 tions to offer on the resolution laid over from yesterday? 
 
 Mr. Kimball — I would like to hear the resolution read 
 
 ■m. 
 
 >lution read. (See page 12). 
 
 The Commissioner— What do I understand is meant by 
 the first clause of the resolution: " Territorial division ?'' 
 Does that embrace the terms upon which the territory may 
 be apportioned to the northern lines, they remaining out of 
 California business? 
 
 Mi STUBBS— That waa my object, first to determine a plan 
 of procedure; and next, to take up the arrangement, what- 
 r it may be, as between the northern lines on the one 
 1, and the California lines on the other hand. 
 
 Mr. ElMBALL— Are you willing to withdraw the resolution, 
 and act upon the first clause? 
 
 -The object of the resolution was simply to 
 determine a plau of procedure; that is, the order in which 
 
22 
 
 Mr je stubbs' we w ^ ^ a ^ e th e several subjects up. The important feature 
 Mepige°i27 °^ ** * s * ne division of the Pool as between the roads 
 beyond the eastern termini of the Central Pacific, the 
 Atlantic & Pacific and the Southern Pacific on the one hand, 
 and the companies mentioned therein on the other hand, to 
 see whether, after careful consideration, it would not be 
 decided by the members that that was the simplest, the 
 fairest way to settle the differences existing. I thought that, 
 under such a plan, all concerned would be willing to go to 
 arbitration again, while, perhaps, without such a plan none 
 of us would be willing to go to arbitration. As to discuss- 
 ing the first part of the resolution, and settling that, I 
 understand Mr. Oakes desires that the clause referred to be 
 held over until his arrival, which will be to-morrow, but 
 that need not interfere with the discussing as to whether 
 that is the best plan to proceed on; in other words, deter- 
 mine whether we will have one pool by lines, as heretofore, 
 or whether we will have two pools. 
 
 The Commissioner — Would not that hinge somewhat upon 
 the division of territory between the Northern and the 
 Southern Lines. Should not that question be settled first? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Not necessarily. The mere fact of deter- 
 mining our order of procedure does not bind any one. If we 
 take up and discuss the second portion of the resolution 
 there is so much time gained, then when Mr. Oakes is here 
 we go back to the order prescribed by the resolution, and 
 take up this question of territorial division and see what 
 deal we can make in that direction. If we fail in that, we 
 will not go to No. 2 or No. 3. It seems to me that has to 
 be settled first. "We might carry it over. We might 
 table this resolution if we are not prepared to discuss it. 
 I do not see ivhy it cannot be discussed to-day as well as 
 to-morrow; but if we are not prepared to discuss it we 
 might carry it over, and when you are ready to take up any- 
 thing it should be this territorial division between the 
 Oregon Lines and the California Lines; settle that question 
 and that determines the fact as to what you do afterwards. 
 
28 
 
 Mr. Kimball— If Mr. Stubbs will consent to tho divi- 
 sion of the resolution I will move the adoption of the first 
 clause. 
 
 The Commissioner— Do you consent, Mr. Stubbs ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Certainly. 
 
 Mr. Hannaford— I will second Mr. Kimball's motion so 
 far as the clause relates to territorial division. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Let me suggest something right in that 
 connection. If you move the adoption of the first clause 
 and it is carried, and you do not take up the second portion 
 of the resolution at all, then you are utterly stopped from 
 going one step further until Mr. Oakes arrives and we 
 are ready to discuss the terms of this territorial division. 
 Then suppose he arrives, and to-morrow afternoon is ready 
 to take it up and determine what that territorial division 
 shall be, that is, the terms of the agreement as between the 
 Oregon Lines on the one hand and the California Lines on 
 the other hand. That might carry us over until Thursday 
 evening, then the second part of this resolution — for I shall 
 certainly present it again to get an expression upon it — will 
 be introduced, and we will have to go through just what 
 we could go through this afternoon, if we took it up this 
 afternoon ; but if there are any here who have not consid- 
 ered the subject carefully, and honestly want time to 
 decide as to whether it is expedient to make that radical 
 ohaoge, all right. I do not wish to hurry it. It can 
 just as well be temporarily tabled as not. I am at home; 
 the matter is very little to me personally whether the pro- 
 ceedings here are prolonged or not, but I presume that 
 some of you feel like I do when I am East — want to get 
 through. That is the only reason why I presented the reso- 
 lution at the opening of this session. 
 
 The Commissioner— Mr. Kimball, is there any objection 
 to the territorial division as provided for under tho present 
 oontf 
 
24 
 
 Mr. Kimball — There is not only the territorial division to 
 dispose of, but there is also the terms and conditions upon 
 which that division is made, upon which the Northern Lines 
 consent to stay out of California. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— We take it up where we dropped it at Chi- 
 cago. It amounts to this: All are agreed to make this ter- 
 ritorial division — to set off to the Oregon Lines the territory 
 north of the northern boundary of California, and to set 
 off to the California Lines the territory south of that; then 
 the only question is whether these Oregon Lines will agree 
 to that territorial division without some compensation other 
 than the exclusion of the one from the territory of the 
 other. That brings up the subsidy, if any is paid, which is 
 where we stopped at Chicago, and which cannot be settled 
 until Mr. Oakes arrives. Therefore the discussion of the sec- 
 ond part of the resolution would not advance these proceed- 
 ings a step, so far as I can see. 
 
 Mr. Kimball — I would like to hear a pretty full discus- 
 sion of the whole resolution as it was first introduced. We 
 have not only the territorial division and the terms upon 
 which the territory may be- divided to dispose of, but also 
 the question of pooling the entire Trans-Continental busi- 
 ness on the part of the Southern Lines, whether upon the 
 basis of two pools, or whether upon the basis as we are 
 now organized. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I suppose I should state its object, the rea- 
 sons for its introduction. They are simply these. I regard 
 the Oregon Lines as competitors of the Southern Lines over 
 their whole distance —that is, the line from St. Paul to Port- 
 land or to San Francisco, if they should come here, is cer- 
 tainly a competitor of the line from Omaha to San Fran- 
 cisco via Ogden, or of the Atlantic & Pacific Line from 
 Kansas City via Mojave. Therefore the contract as between 
 the Northern and the Southern Lines could be made a sep- 
 arate part of the agreement. It is understood that either of 
 these sets of lines pay to the other a consideration for keep- 
 
25 
 
 ing out of the other's territory. Then the Commissioner 
 could in his accounts determine the gross earnings pre- 
 cisely as he has done in the past, and assess the subsidy 
 agreed to be paid on each of the lines by whom it should be 
 paid: that is one transaction simply, easily done. I then 
 regard that practically there is no competition between the 
 Union Pacific and the Southern Pacific, as I regard that there 
 is no competition practically between the Atchison and the 
 Central Pacific, or between the Atlantic & Pacific and the G. 
 H. <fc S. A. The competition is between the Central Pa- 
 cific, the Atlantic & Pacific and the Southern Pacific — 
 the Southern Pacific being regarded as a portion of the 
 Atlantic & Pacific Line for the distance from Mojave here. 
 Therefore it would seem natural that the earnings of these 
 lines should be pooled as between themselves. There 
 should be no agreement which might by any chance or any 
 method of apportionment require the Central Pacific to 
 pay to the Union Pacific a portion of its earnings. As 
 the Agreement now stands it might transpire that the 
 Atlantic <fc Pacific would have to pay a portion of its 
 earnings to the Atchison, which, to me, would be absurd; 
 or it might transpire that the G. H. & S. A. would have to 
 pay to the Central Pacific. That, to me, would be absurd 
 also. The competition is, therefore, east of Ogden, Albu- 
 
 [ue, El Paso, etc., and is as between the G. H. & S. A., 
 the Texas & Pacific, Atchison, B. & M., D. & R. G. and U.. 
 P. (That is precisely as it was under the first, or original 
 California Pool Agreement), and they should pool among 
 themselves. That much for what I regard as the principles 
 which should govern pool agreements, that a tine should 
 
 to pool only with its competitor. Another consideration, 
 is the simplicity of the workings under the proposition. 
 There would be no interchange of payments, except^ as 
 between the lines practically competitors of each other. I 
 do not know whether we shall be able to agree upon per- 
 centages among ourselves or not. If past experience should 
 be taken as an infallible guide, I should say that we would 
 not be able to agree. At the same time, I think that there 
 
26 
 
 \yould be better results if we would each honestly try to 
 make au agreement among ourselves than go before an 
 arbitrator, because there is scarcely one of us who could 
 find or suggest a man to arbitrate this question who is 
 familiar enough with it to do it intelligently, unless he has 
 been at some time or other more or less connected or inter- 
 ested in one or other members of the Association. And we 
 are all human, and that would naturally create a bias in the 
 minds of the competitors of the line with which the pro- 
 posed arbitrator was connected. But suppose we should 
 agree upon an arbitrator; we have already had experience 
 enough to know that for such a referee to take up 
 the question, and apportion the earnings by lines, would 
 be a very difficult question. We tried once at Chicago. 
 I think I was on the committee on the formulation of the 
 agreement, and I wrote out a resolution which indicated the 
 lines, the connections which should be regarded as lines, 
 roads forming through lines, or the roads connecting with 
 each other, which should be taken by the arbitrator as 
 through lines in allotting his award, the award to each line 
 to be subdivided between the roads in accordance with the 
 regular percentages which they use in billing freight or 
 ticketing passengers. That resolution came up for discus- 
 sion in open meeting, and at once each party tried to make a 
 line, and we saw at once that we were going to have seventy- 
 five different lines. The B. & M., wanted a line via Pueblo 
 and the D. & R. G.; also via the U. P. and Cheyenne; also 
 via the Atchison and The Needles, also via the Atchison & 
 Deming. The Union Pacific wanted a line via the Oregon 
 Short Line via Pocatello and Garrison, etc. It was clearly 
 the intent, however, if you will refer to the agreement, that 
 the apportionments referred to Mr. Tucker, should be 
 made by lines, and I think you will find what might be 
 regarded practically as instructions to him that he should 
 so make the award. But I learn that after careful con- 
 sideration, I think it was in his report of his award to the 
 Association — that he had given it very careful consideration, 
 but he did not see how he could make his allotment by lines. 
 
27 
 
 Therefore he had undertaken it as he did, and I think many 
 of us consider that he erred — that it was a trap which snared 
 his judgment in the matter — all believing, however, that he 
 was honest and conscientious, an eminently capable man 
 under the circumstances to do the work, and I do not think 
 we could find any better man to arbitrate this question than 
 Mr. Tucker, nor a man who had as little knowledge of the 
 intricacies of the business, and who would do so well as Mr. 
 Tucker has done. If we make these two pools as proposed, 
 all that trouble is eliminated. He could make his award 
 without much regard to lines, and I think reach a conclu- 
 sion which would be satisfactory to most of us. 
 
 Mr. Kimball — Let me interrupt you a moment. I do not 
 see how that division between the eastern and western ter- 
 ritory, on the basis of two pools, eliminates that question 
 at all. The same side tracks, which we all were so anxious 
 to get in before, exist to-day, and they are east of the junc- 
 tion points. Now, when we get together to determine among 
 ourselves, as the lines east of those junction points, do we 
 not have to grapple with the same question ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — There is something in what you say, Mr. 
 Kimball. Of course, the division as proposed by the reso- 
 lution would not forbid the B. & M. making the same claim 
 as I have indicated, for the purpose of illustration, but 
 there is this about it, that in determining the Central Pa- 
 cific's proportion it would not be confused or confounded 
 with that question at all. There is that much of it lifted out, 
 that in determining the proportion of the Atlantic & Pacific 
 it would not be confused or confounded with the question 
 of the allotments to the eastern pool; and so with the South- 
 ern Pacific. I do not say that it is absolutely perfect. I do 
 not say that we could formulate any plan of procedure or 
 give any instructions to an arbitrator which are going to 
 relieve him of a good deal of labor, or of the exercising of 
 very careful judgment in order to satisfy, even if he could; 
 but it certainly is a long step towards simplifying the mat- 
 ter. These are the considerations, so far as I am able to 
 
Discussion 
 as to both 
 pools being 
 subject to 
 one Com- 
 missioner 
 and under 
 same rules 
 and regula- 
 tions. 
 
 express them to you, that influenced me in presenting this 
 resolution. There is another reason that I might illustrate 
 to you. We have to have a pool — we already have a pool 
 between the Atlantic & Pacific and Southern Pacific Com- 
 panies, which embraces a little more business than is in- 
 cluded in this Association, that we do not regard as a per- 
 fect instrument, but w r e always have to have such an 
 agreement, and there is no need of having the two. That Pool 
 Agreement is part of our general agreement under which 
 the sale was made; they have their rights into California; so 
 there is nothing we can do here — 
 
 Mr. Goddard— I would like to ask whether it was your 
 idea, in offering that resolution, that all matters pertaining 
 to both pools should be subject to the one Association, the 
 only separation being the fixing up of your own affairs so far 
 as percentages are concerned ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — My idea was, that both sets of pools would 
 be formed under the name of the Trans-Continental Associ- 
 ation, under the control of the Commissioner of the Trans- 
 Continental Association, who wou'd audit the accounts and 
 make the settlements precisely as he does now; that the two 
 pools should be co-existent and inter-dependent. Of course, 
 if the pool between the lines East should fail, I do not see 
 how it could be otherwise than that the pool West should 
 fail, unless by subsequent agreement the lines interested in 
 the Western Pool should agree to maintain an unbroken 
 front to all their connections. 
 
 Mr. Kistine — W T ould the same rules regarding rate-making 
 power, etc., established under the Trans-Continental Asso- 
 ciation, obtain, or be provided for separately under the two 
 pools? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — My idea is, that the Trans-Continental Agree- 
 ment should cover both, the only difference being the 
 division of the Western from the Eastern pool in the matter 
 of revenue for the convenience of the Association. 
 
29 
 
 Mr. Ristine— Two sets of perceutages, instead of one, as 
 at present. Everything else you would expect to be covered 
 by the Trans-Continental Association ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Yes. Trans-Continental force; Trans-Con- 
 tinental rules and Agreement to cover everything, that was 
 what I had contemplated. 
 
 Mr. Ristine— I did not know but that you intended to 
 make two separate pools; two separate sets of rules and 
 regulations; two separate agreements. 
 
 Mr. StUBBS — I cannot see why it should be necessary to 
 take it out of the jurisdiction of the Association at all. 
 
 The Commissioner— Mr. Stubbs, I would like to ask if the 
 proposed pool between the Central Pacific, Southern Pacific 
 and Atlantic & Pacific Companies would be merely of the 
 proportions of their through business, or the business now 
 pooled, or would it be of a stipulated amount from certain 
 points? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — It would be under the Trans-Continental 
 Association; the pool between them would be simply of that 
 business covered by the present Association, passing the 
 ninety-seventh meridian. 
 
 The Commissioner— Then it would be simply a pool of 
 their earnings on that portion of the business. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — ■ Yes, that is all. I think it would render it 
 much easier for you gentlemen to settle among yourselves, 
 and tri It certainly simplifies the matter, and guar- 
 
 antees more permanence to our agreement. 
 
 Mr. MILLER asked as to the handliug of "diversions" 
 DDder the proposed arrangement. 
 
 Mr. 8 <ould be made precisely as they are 
 
 now. 
 
 Mr. Miller—- I don't see how you could fix it. 
 
30 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I don't see why diversions cannot be regu- 
 lated. I don't think any greater difficulties would be en- 
 countered than now exist. 
 
 Mr. Eustis— Your suggestion would practically give you 
 46 per cent, via Ogden. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — No; I would like to have it that way. For 
 example, suppose the Central Pacific, the Atlantic & Pacific 
 and the Southern Pacific were in a pool, each taking' one- 
 third, and the B. & M., D. & E. G. and U. P. should of this 
 Trans-Continental business deliver one-half or three-fifths to 
 the Central Pacific, then the difference between the three- 
 fifths and one-third would have to be paid over to the Atlantic 
 .& Pacific, if it was behind, or to the Southern Pacific. 
 
 Mr. Eustis— I do not see how the connections east of 
 Ogden could consent to any pool that gave the Central Pa- 
 cific less than 46 per cent, of the earnings via Ogden; that 
 is, I do not see how the lines east of Ogden, if they are 
 capable of carrying two-thirds of the business, could con- 
 sent to any agreement on the part of the Atlantic & Pa- 
 cific and Southern Pacific as against the Central Pacific, 
 whereby they would carry two-thirds of the business by the 
 Southern Lines. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs Still you would have no objection if you de- 
 livered to the Central Pacific three-fifths and you got your 
 proportion of it, if there was no provision that diversion 
 should be made. 
 
 Mr. Eustis — Then it comes down to this: If you had 
 such an agreement as that, it would be a mere matter of ac- 
 counting between the Central Pacific, the Southern Pacific 
 and the Atlantic and Pacific Companies; it would not be a 
 matter between the Eastern Lines at all. Why should that 
 phase of it be brought into the question at all? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Just as have stated to you, that under the 
 present contract it is possible, and I do not think it at all im- 
 probable, if we should adopt these freight percentages which 
 
31 
 
 Mr. Tucker has awarded, that in the accounting the Central 
 Pacific would have to pa}* money to the Union Pacific. If 
 there is anything but palpable absurdity in any such an ap- 
 portionment, I would like to have it explained. I do not 
 think it improbable that the G. H. <fe S. A., might have to 
 pay to the Atlantic <fc Pacific. 
 
 Mr. Ecstis— I admit that; but why is not that easily rem- 
 edied, and why is it not practically remedied by that clause 
 of the original agreement which you have referred to, that 
 says that the apportionment shall be made by lines ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— This resolution is introduced to propose a 
 plan of procedure for simplifying these matters. It is the 
 best, so far, I have been able to suggest. I am not wedded 
 to that plan of procedure. The proposition that is going to 
 answer the best, that is going to meet the case the nearest 
 and the fairest, is the one I want adopted. This one is intro- 
 duced merely for your consideration, not that it may be the 
 best that might be made, but for you to see whether it does 
 not promise something. This resolution may have the 
 effect of suggesting to the minds of the representatives here 
 a better plan than that proposed, in which case I should 
 like to have the pleasure of voting for it; but I did not think 
 that a suggestion or a thought would be started in the 
 minds of the representatives here without some proposition 
 they could talk to. 
 
 Mr. I —It seems to me that so far as you can fix it, 
 
 whether by one, two or five pools, that it probably could be 
 fixed as well by the plan you named in Chicago, or rather 
 the agreei iched at Omaha, the clause reading: "The 
 
 Subdivision of the contributions to the joint purse between 
 the several companies formiflg a line shall be on the basis 
 of freight percentages in use between said companies." 
 Passenger business being covered in a similar manner. Now, 
 while these lines are not defined, each company will claim a 
 dozen, natural or unnatural; the same complications will 
 exist. It does not mat i • are one or two pools, 
 
 the same complications present themselves. 
 
32 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— The trouble is this, that you would not be 
 able to determine what the western connection of any set 
 of lines is entitled to; for example, in figuring over and test- 
 ing Arbitrator Tucker's award, I note that the B. & M. re- 
 ceives more on Passenger than the D. & R. G. If I remem- 
 ber it, more on Freight and less on Passenger. Now, for the 
 purpose of showing or exhibiting, I made what I regard a 
 conclusive showing of the unfairness of the award. I held 
 that the B. & M. should be regarded as the connection of 
 the D. & R, G.. or that the D. & B. G. should be regarded 
 as the sole connection of the B. & M. on percentages, and 
 made my showing in that way. The excess on Freight I had 
 to dispose of in some way, so regarded that it would deliver, 
 or that the excess was given to it on account of its line via 
 Cheyenne. Mr. Goddard informs me, and I have no doubt 
 it is true, that the Atchison delivered freight and passengers 
 to the D. & R. G. at Pueblo, and that question of " lines" 
 is raised by that very proposition, and it would be very 
 hard to determine. I think it would be impossible to 
 determine unless we should sit down here and arbitrarily 
 agree that there shall be certain lines. If we can agree 
 among ourselves that the Union Pacific and Central Pa- 
 cific shall constitute one line, and that the Union Pacific 
 shall not be credited with any business that it may de- 
 liver to the D. & R. G. at Denver, that would dispose 
 of the question so far as it goes, but will the Union Pacific 
 agree to that ? Shall we regard the B. &. M. as the sole 
 connection of the D. & R. G., and vice versa, and the Atchi- 
 son of the Atlantic & Pacific? Now, that is something I 
 would not like to agree to; while I know that it is practically 
 so, yet, at the same time, the Atchison is a connection of the 
 Southern Pacific at Deming, and more or less business will 
 go that way. It will be considerably less, but some will go 
 that way. 
 
 Mr. Eustis — What I fail to see is, how it will eliminate 
 these complications. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I say we eliminate them so far as the western 
 end is concerned, leaving the other for yourselves to settle. 
 
33 
 
 Mr, ErsTis— You cannot settle it any quicker than by 
 settling it as a whole. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— The point is this: the settlement is made as 
 between these Western lines, regardless of any settlements 
 that are made east. The Central Pacific is not concerned 
 in what the U. P. gets, in what the B. & M. gets, or in what 
 the D. & R. G. gets. The Atlantic & Pacific is not con- 
 cerned ib what the Atchison gets, etc. Now, certainly there is 
 that much of simplicity in its application, because at present 
 these lines are concerned, aud directly concerned, in what 
 their connections get; but to say that this question of lines is 
 altogether eliminated by this proposition is something I 
 cannot, and I have not stated; but it is certainly one step 
 towards reducing the complications. I do not know how it 
 would turn out, but I think the Central Pacific, the Atlantic 
 a Pacific and the Southern Pacific could easily agree among 
 themselves, and that the only question for arbitration would 
 be as to the east thereof. You may be able to give some 
 better plan, but I have not seen, as yet, where there could 
 be any improvement made. I do not think we could sit 
 here a week aud settle on an arbitrary set of lines. 
 
 Informal discussion upon the proposition. 
 
 The Commissioner — How would you average Southern Discussion 
 P^lcific percentages on California business? r 8 average 
 
 perceutage. 
 
 Mr. STUBB8 —That U not a difficult matter. In the event 
 of your determining the lines, it would be an easy matter. 
 
 Tli.- 0OMMI88IONBB— I am speaking of it as it exists at the 
 Bent time. Have you ever figured what the average per- 
 Skrathern Pacific is ? 
 
 Mr, 8 BBS— You must have a beginning point. I have 
 
 Brmioed it to my satisfaction, taking Mr. Tucker's award 
 
 to the lines east as correct. If you want to go on the basis 
 
 of Mr. Tucker's award, the only way would be to take his 
 
 award to the Atlantic & Pacific for example, and see if that 
 
 I tlautic & Pacific's freight percentage; then as 
 
34 
 
 Resnme of 
 
 October 
 
 Freight 
 
 Pool 
 
 Statement. 
 
 18 per cent, is to the proportion of the Atlantic <fe Pacific, so 
 the Southern Pacific should be to the Atlantic & Pacific's 
 award. That settles that question. Then you take the 
 Texas & Pacific award. Now, as the Southern Pacific 
 percentage is to the Texas & Pacific percentage, so the S. 
 P. proportion on account of T. & P. should be to the award 
 of the T. & P. I have it figured out if you would like to 
 see it. 
 
 The Commissioner— I would like to see it. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— That goes on the principle that Mr. Tucker 
 is right in his award to the Eastern Lines. That of course 
 would not be acceptable to some of the Eastern Lines. The 
 Union Pacific, for instance, will not admit that they have 
 been properly treated. 
 
 The balance of the afternoon was spent in informal dis- 
 cussion and computations in connection with the results to 
 be obtained by the exclusion of all western territory non- 
 competitive with the lines composing the proposed Eastern 
 pool, but argument upon the subject not being exhausted, 
 it was again deferred until the following morning. 
 
 Adjourned until 10 a. m. to-morrow. 
 
 Wednesday, January \Uh— Morning Session, 
 
 Meeting convened at 10.30 a. m. 
 
 All members represented. 
 
 The Commissioner— I have a matter here which I desire 
 to bring to your notice. I presented some figures yesterday 
 on October business, but late last evening I discovered that 
 these figures were not exactly correct, from the fact that 
 the Agreement was made up on the basis of lines, whereas 
 the percentages awarded by Mr. Tucker are by roads. I 
 took it that the $4.80 per ton which was allowed on excess 
 carried, as meaning for each road. I find now that it was 
 meant as applying to the line, and hence I have given you 
 
35 
 
 too much credit by your proportion of percentage in each 
 route. There were others under the same impression. I 
 talked with several upon the subject, and they each had the 
 same idea, that it was $4.80 per ton to each road, but upon 
 a careful reading of the agreement I discovered that it should 
 be interpreted as $4.80 to each line. Upon this basis the 
 statement is chauged somewhat. 
 
 Mr. Kimball — $4.80 per ton from the eastern boundary 
 of Trans-Continental territory to the point of delivery. 
 
 The Commissioner presented an approximate statement so 
 far as the Southern Pacific's interest was concerned. It was 
 decided, however, to figure the several connections of that 
 line separately, as the percentage might appear, thereby 
 obtaining an actual showing of the amount to pay over by 
 the Southern Pacific to the several lines in interest. 
 
 After an extended informal discussion, recess was taken 
 until 2 p. m. 
 
 Wednesday, January \kth — Afternoon Session. 
 
 M ting convened at 3 p. m. 
 
 All members represented. 
 
 The Commissioner — The figures given you this morning 
 upon Southern Pacific business were approximate. We 
 have now figured each line separately, and find that the 
 amount payable from all roads over is $63,873.77— an in- 
 of some $5,000 — showing the amount payable by the 
 Union Pacific to be $6,123.35, which is not changed from the 
 farmer showing. The Southern Pacific, however, changes 
 from $32,657.00 to 138,372.68. The G. H. & S. A. pays 
 over $9,144.64, the IV - 10,233.10, making to- 
 
 tal of $63,873.77. 
 
 After some slight discussion, the Commissioner suggested Jmrni*. 
 that as that matter had been temporarily disposed of, other ,u,: 
 business was in order, and called attention to the fact that stuN* 
 
 ........ .ti<-n 
 
 -Mi stuhbs resolution, upon winch action had not as yet «e«p«gei^ 
 i taken, was the next subject for debate. 
 
his com- 
 pany. 
 
 36 
 Mr. Goddard offered amendment as follows : 
 
 It being the intent of this resolution that each of the pools shall be gov- 
 erned in all respects by the Trans-Continental Association, and that the only 
 change proposed from the past agreement consists in the separation of per- 
 centages in the pool into two divisions, one east of Ogden, Albuquerque, 
 Deming and El Paso, and the other west of those points. 
 
 Mr. God- Accepted by Mr. Stubbs, and included iu the original 
 
 amendment resolution. (See page 12). 
 
 accepted. 
 
 The Commissioner— I have a letter from Mr. Olds, which 
 I will read for the information of the members. 
 
 St. Louis, Dec. 29, 1884. 
 "Geo. W. Ristlne, Esq., Commissioner, San Francisco. 
 Mr. Olds' Dear Sir, — In connection with the meeting to be held at San Francisco 
 
 letter ex- January 12th ensuing, I deem it advisable to inform you that it is not probable 
 position of we shall be represented at such meeting. It has become a serious question 
 with our Company whether our interest in the Trans-Continental Association 
 is of sufficient magnitude to justify us in wasting time and money in attending 
 the different meetings. 
 
 As we shall not be represented at the meeting, it may be proper for me to 
 indicate to you our position. I will, therefore, say that if the Association is 
 reorganized on a satisfactory basis, and continued on and after February 1st, 
 we shall not endanger its existence by remaining outside of the Association, 
 provided, of course, that the organization is satisfactory to us, and a Com 
 missioner, also satisfactory to us, will be placed in charge of the affairs. 
 Another object in my writing you this, is to indicate to the representatives of 
 the other lines that because of our absence from the meeting it will not 
 necessarily follow that we shall not become a member of any organization that 
 is formed, and that they need not on account of our absence delay the re- 
 organization of the Association. 
 
 (Signed) Geo. Olds." 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— T have a later communication from the 
 General Traffic Manager of the Texas & Pacific, which I 
 beg leave to present to you for the information of the 
 Association. 
 
 The Commissioner read the telegram, as folloAvs: 
 
 January 13, 1885, 
 "J. C. Stubbs, San Francisco. 
 fronfr al & P. We wish it understood that we cannot become a member of the Trans- 
 Rywith- Continental Association unless all lines west of the Mississippi Eiver, over 
 their mem- which California traffic can be handled, also become members. This neces- 
 Sother" 1 " sarilv includes the St. Louis & San Francisco and Sunset Line from New 
 lines join. Orleans west. 
 
 (Signed) Geo. Olds." 
 
37 
 
 Mr. Towne— Since Mr. Olds says in his letter that he will 
 not become an obstructionist, I think you have nothing to 
 fear from that quarter. 
 
 The resolution was here submittrd to vote, resulting in Mr stubbs . 
 its unanimous adoption. SSXt. 
 
 ly adopted— 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Unless we have some intimation that Mr. a n e d p 3 a 6 f 8 12 
 Oakes will be present this afternoon, I think we might as 
 well adjourn until to-morrow. 
 
 Mr. Prescott— I think it very doubtful if Mr. Oakes gets 
 round. 
 
 Complaints having been informally made by several of Delay in in- 
 the members in regard to the delay which it was claimed bound cias- 
 occurred in the issuance of the new West-bound Classifica- and Tariff 
 tion and Tariff of January 1, 1885, Mr. Kistine asked per- plained, 
 mission to read the correspondence relating to its issuance, 
 which was accorded. It was shown that considerable delay 
 occurred in the San Francisco Post Office, the entire 
 issue having been made by the Commissioner's office on 
 Deeember 31, 1884. 
 
 Mr. Gray corroborated the various incidents related by 
 Mr. Ristine in reference to its distribution. 
 
 Upon motion of Mr. Hannaford, seconded by Mr. 
 ToWNE, an adjournment was taken until 10 a. m. to-morrow. 
 
 Thursday, January 15th — Morning Session. 
 
 ting convened at 10.30 a. m. 
 
 All members represented. 
 
 The Commissioner — I have a message this morning from i,i 
 Mr. Guilford, Assistant Commissioner, New York, in answer 5!„ 
 to a communication from this Association, dated January llpiJu/rttS 
 7th, relative to the Oil rates to apply this year, account of <,n011 ' 
 the Standard and Continental Oil Companies, reading as 
 follows : 
 
38 
 
 New York, Jan. 14. 
 L. G. Cannon, S. F. : 
 
 Your letter seventh. As Trunk Line Committee has declined to be party 
 to any special contracts during present year, we cannot approve proposed 
 special contract with Standard and Continental Oil Companies. All traffic 
 should pay the established rates and classifications. 
 
 (Signed), N. Guilford. 
 
 Son ofwLe Mr - Shelby asked for classification of Wine, in wood, west- 
 
 in wooc 
 ■west- 
 bound. 
 
 £ e ™ od bound. 
 
 It was agreed : 
 
 Wine in wood, same as Liquors in wood. 
 
 Mr. Ristine suggested that the following telegram be for- 
 warded to Mr. Guilford. 
 
 Suggested "Your telegram fourteenth. Our classification does not provide for Oil in 
 
 be^forward- tan ^ cars ' an( ^ ^ e rate su gg este( l nas Deen * n force several years. We name 
 
 ed Trunk Standard and Continental Companies, as it is necessary to give gauge of the 
 
 count spe- cars » an( * tne y are tne on ^J parties using such cars in Californ : a trade. It is 
 
 cialrateson therefore not, properly speaking, a special rate. Unless we can make them 
 
 an approximate rate on Case Oil, the business will all take Cape Horn route . 
 
 The Trans-Continental Association, now in session, respectfully ask your 
 
 approval of these rates, which they consider very important." 
 
 sunset's po- Mr. Stubbs — Keferring to the Oil rates, Mr. Commis- 
 gaSs rateT sioner, we want, so far as the Sunset is concerned, to make 
 Atlantic the same rates from seaboard points as are made from 
 
 »ea- board. ~, , -, 
 
 Cleveland. 
 
 Mr. Eistine — Why? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— To give us an opportunity to take a share of 
 that oil. There is a reason for it that ought to be regarded 
 of sufficient importance to secure the approval of the other 
 lines, who naturally would not care to have the Sunset carry 
 any, and that is that a large portion of the oil that comes 
 here from the Atlantic Coast is of the lowest grade, and is 
 made at Chester, Pa., and is controlled by the Lombard 
 and Ayres Co. of New York, which is independent entirely of 
 the Standard Oil Company; and I am satisfied that unless 
 we do provide that oil can be taken from the refineries on 
 the Atlantic Coast, or some portion of it, at the same rat^s 
 as from Cleveland, that that oil will go round Cape Honiv 
 
39 
 
 Mr. Ristine — The reason I asked you the question was 
 that I understood that the Continental Company have a 
 refinery at Buffalo. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — They have not. They did have, but that is 
 all changed. 
 
 Mr. RlSTTNE — I was told they did have as late as the day 
 before yesterday, and that they were shipping all their oil 
 from Buffalo instead of Chester. If that is true, there is a 
 reason for making the rate from New York a trifle higher. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs claimed that his information came direct from 
 the Continental Oil Company, and explained the position as 
 between the several oil companies and the necessity for pro- 
 tecting the Atlantic Coast oil business. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — You probably misunderstood. The rates 
 ruling this year are the same as existed last year. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — That is true, but they are half a cent per 
 gallon higher. It seems to me that the Trunk Lines are 
 I ving this thing a little too far. They say they will not 
 go into any special contracts. We have practically adapted 
 ourselves to their views, and agreed that we will not make 
 any special contracts; but when the Trunk Lines, the Iowa 
 Lines, or any set of men, say there will be no special rates 
 on this California business, and assume the position that we 
 can make a tariff and stick to that tariff arbitrarily the whole 
 year through without any modification whatever, they take 
 a position they cannot sustain. They are trying to enforce 
 ami to preach that which they do not practice on their own 
 business, ;tnd it is not done, to my mind, with any just regard 
 for the business or for any fair purpose towards us, and if 
 they are going to assume that position we had better take 
 care of ourselves. 
 
 Mr. EtonHB— How would it do, Mr. Stubbs, for the T. C an« Re8 ti Ul? 
 
 that n com* 
 
 A. to appoint a Committee to see tho Trunk Lino people? " 
 
 It has never been discussed with them as a Trans-Continen- «••■"•< tn.- 
 
 tal matter since your interview. It would only be following '■■ 
 
40 
 
 up and sustaining your argument in favor of special con- 
 tracts, and certainly would not do any harm. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I think our interest would vote for a com- 
 mittee to interview them, if that was thought necessary, but 
 we have been interviewing them, and my experience has 
 been, since last December, that we have gone just as far as 
 we can afford towards meeting their views. Instead of ac- 
 cepting the concession which we made to their views and 
 meeting us in a proper spirit, and all will admit that it was 
 with deference to these Eastern Lines that we agreed to 
 abandon the general contract plan, but agreeing for their 
 own interest, if they have any interest in this business, that 
 we should make some few special contracts, they arbitrarily 
 sat down and refused to join in any specials whatever; this, 
 although the testimony of every one directly interested in 
 this business, knowing more about it than they ever will 
 know, was that some specials are absolntely necessary to 
 preserve the business. Now, here is Commissioner Midgley 
 and the Orange and Iron Pipe rates. They do not want 
 any specials at all. I never have seen a road yet that could 
 adopt a tariff on the first day of January and stick to that 
 tariff the year through. 
 
 Mr. Eistine — When in New York we did not have an 
 opportunity to talk the matter over fully with them. They 
 were after the " Sunset," which did not give us much of an 
 opportunity. Mr. Hannaford and others here, I think, will 
 bear me out that they stated that if their arrangements were 
 perfected with the "Sunset." they would be perfectly will- 
 ing to join with us in any rates, special contracts, or any- 
 thing necessary to transact the business; and more, Mr. 
 Fink himself advocated the special contract plan at that 
 time, because he said that if a pool were made with the 
 " Sunset" it would enable diversion. Now they have sud- 
 denly changed their minds. Would it not be a good idea, 
 in order to follow up your arguments, that the Trans-Con- 
 tinental Association appoint a Committee to go to New York 
 and lay the subject before them as a Trans-Cnntinental 
 
41 
 
 matter. Unfortunately, when you were there you were not 
 vested with the authority to speak for the Association as a 
 whole? I think, undoubtedly, that this would be au oppor- 
 tune action on the part of this Association, and would sus- 
 tain your arguments in favor of a few special contracts. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — There is no question, Mr. Ristine, about the 
 animus of the Trunk Lines— that is, that they wanted to 
 cut the throat of the Sunset in this matter, and there is no 
 question about the result; that when I went back there they 
 found it would be a dangerous experiment, and concluded 
 they would not do it. Now, as to their action in regard to 
 the special contracts which you claim, is a reversal of what 
 they told you after I left them. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — Understand that their statement was not an 
 official one, merely their open expressions in Mr. Guilford's 
 office. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Whether that is the case or not, they found 
 it was not expedient to make a pool with the Sunset, and 
 that it was not possible to shut them out of New England. 
 Whether that was the reason for their refusal, I cannot say. 
 But I do say that Mr. Fink has been opposed to contracts 
 from the beginning; and I think that opposition originated, 
 or was owing to the confusion it brought into his accounts. 
 But there is another reason, and a more important reason, 
 and that is the question of Congressional legislation. He 
 is very tender on that point, and considers that, whether the 
 principle is right or wrong, the practice would have the 
 effect of introducing antagonistic legislation. He wanted 
 that provocation removed. But when they proposed to 
 • to adopt this tariff, but not to agree to any contracts 
 whatsoever, I said to them that I thought they were making 
 a mistake, and that they had better consider it carefully. 
 The answer was by Mr. Hayden, I think, (and I have the rec- 
 ord, which I will bring Up here so that you can refer to it,) 
 that they had beard the argument over and over again; that 
 th' v thought there was nothing new to be udded. I told 
 them that I did not know there was anything new to be 
 
42 
 
 added to what we had already said, to the information we 
 had given them, to the information experience had given 
 them. They said they did not want any special contracts — 
 would not agree to any — that they wanted to try it a year 
 without. They went further, and said that they did not 
 want any of us to make any special contracts, and it took 
 some questioning on my part to get them to say that while 
 they did not want any of us to make contracts, they would 
 not object if the lines west of their termini joined with us 
 in making special contracts. 
 
 Mr. Eistine — I do not see how they could. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — After that meeting adjourned, when I went 
 in to get a letter of advice to the New England lines, ex- 
 plaining the situation, I found that Mr. Guilford had signed 
 a communication to those lines wherein he stated flatly that 
 no special contracts were to be made by any of us, and 
 Mr. Bullen told me that that was their understanding of it, 
 and I had to call for the stenographic record in order to 
 show the incorrectness of that statement. I told Mr. Guil- 
 ford that I had no right to represent the Trans-Continental 
 Association in that matter, and I did not agree that no con- 
 tracts would be made. 
 
 Mr. Bistine — The plan that we suggest now is so widely 
 different from that existing in the past. We did have some 
 2600 contracts, including Oregon; now we could limit them 
 to about 100. Previously there were special rates; now we 
 propose to allow a percentage off in such necessary cases. 
 Do you not think if a committee from the Trans-Continental 
 Association should go down to New York and meet these 
 men, that they might be able to exercise some influence upon 
 them ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — At present I do not think they would have 
 any influence with them whatsoever. I think, however, that 
 if there was any hope of reversing their sentiment, it would 
 be worth the trial but my own view is, that we will have to 
 run along for several months and show by our experience this 
 
43 
 
 year, under the operation of the new tariff, that our judg- 
 ment was correct, and that they were wrong, and show by 
 dollars and cents that we are all losing money, or that they 
 are causing us to do so without benefiting themselves, which 
 probably might change their views. I do not think that 
 while this Reagan Bill is pending in the House, it would be 
 any use talking to them. 
 
 Mr. IiIstixe — They will adjourn before long. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I would not go down and spend five minutes 
 upon the proposition. I would do this: if we found it nec- 
 essary to make rates which are not provided. for by the tariff, 
 and which could not be fairly considered as a violation of 
 the agreement upon the part of the u Sunset" with the Trunk 
 Lines, that they would maintain the rates, I would not al- 
 low business to be diverted from the lines concerned in this 
 Pool merely to satisfy the caprice of the Trunk Lines; I 
 would arrange to take it. We are ready to make any fair 
 terms with you on the proposition. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — I think we asked for too much when we 
 started down. AVe talked 500 contracts; if we had talked 
 100 our chances would have been better. 
 
 .Mr. BrUfcBS — "We did not state any definite number. We 
 that they might be limited to 500 or 100. You will 
 find that the commercial community here is very much ex- 
 oiied over this question, and you will find that the aban- 
 donment of the Contract plan will cause a reversal of its po- 
 sition. What the merchants objected to was the General 
 I tract Plan open to all, to every one. You will find that 
 the men who handle the business, that pay us the earnings, 
 would all sympathize with and actively advocate the very 
 proposition we presented in New York, namely: to abandon 
 the contract plan as a general policy and make some special 
 privileged to listen to a proposed re- 
 port of a Committee appointed by the Board of Trade upon 
 the transportation -| I morning, and in that 
 
 report the Sin Francisco merchants practically recom- 
 
44 
 
 mended that which we attempted to get through, but they 
 have now to withdraw their report on account of our entire 
 change of front in this business. They do not know what 
 to do, nor where they are going to stand. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — Mr. Kimball, what do you think of my 
 proposition ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I suppose the Middle and Western States 
 and Pacific Coast Lines will stand right in with the Trunk 
 Lines? 
 
 Mr. Ristine — That's a question. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — We sent a committee to interview Mr. 
 Midgley. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — And he stated then that he would not stand 
 in on any contracts. 
 
 Mr. Kimball — It is your suggestion to appoint a commit- 
 tee to go to New York for the purpose of inducing the 
 Trunk Lines to join us in making a limited number of spec- 
 ial contracts. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Kimball — I should favor making the trial. I think 
 the hope is against us, but we might make an effort. 
 
 Mr. Miller — Would it not be a good idea to also inter- 
 view the Pacific Cflast Association V 
 
 Mr. Towne — Let the ' 'Sunset" take the business, and we 
 divide with you on terms fair and reasonable. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — What I fear is that the lines from Pittsburgh, 
 etc., will set up the rates upon us. 
 
 Mr. Towne — Let the Oil men take care of themselves. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — The reason why we did not get all we asked 
 for was that we were not a unit among ourselves. 
 
 Mr. Ristine— I did not see any discord among our mem- 
 bers. 
 
45 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I saw it. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — You did not give us a chance to say any- 
 thing. 
 
 Mr. Miller — Don't you think we could stand it west of 
 the Missouri River, upon such cases absolutely necessary to 
 be made ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Possibly we might stand it west of the Mis- 
 souri River; but I do not think it fair that we should stand 
 it. I do not favor any proposition but that which would be 
 just and equitable to us. That business is common to us 
 all, and the competition which we experience, and which 
 these contracts are destined to meet, is common to us all, 
 ami should be shared by all. We should assume that the 
 basis of division of the rate, if not essentially just, it is as 
 near just as we can agree or afford, should be the basis of 
 participation in this competition, and that any discounts or 
 concessions that are made from the regular tariff rate should 
 be shared by all the lines sharing in the business, precisely 
 as they share in the Open Tariff rates. 
 
 Mr. Miller — Do you think there would be any difficulty 
 in getting the other lines to do it, whether the Trunk Lines 
 agree to it or not ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I have just said to Mr. Ristine, that if this 
 committee does not have its labor for its pains, I am very 
 much mistaken. We will have to admit that they were all 
 very much occupied by the single idea of getting all of this 
 business on to their lines, and of shutting the "Sunset" out 
 at the time we were East. 
 
 Mr. Etm TM-:— I do not think you state that quite fairly. I 
 do not think tlxy desired to do that. In our talk with them, 
 we advocated their opening of New England to you, and they 
 all admitted your rights. I do not think they desired to 
 shut you out entirely. They recognized your right to life, 
 but they did womi to force you to pool; there is no denying 
 that fact whether you make one or not. I strongly advo- 
 
46 
 
 cated that they open New England to your line, and that 
 they not make that an issue with you, and further; I gave 
 you a letter prior to your departure for the East, conveying 
 that sentiment, and which was signed by several of the 
 members. 
 
 Mr. Towne— But for the large shrinkage in our earniugs, 
 and the great difficulty we would experience in securing the 
 return of the traffic to the rail, which would naturally go by 
 clipper, I would like to see it tested for the benefit of all 
 those who do not recognize that there is not any business in 
 this proposition. The trouble is that when traffic is once 
 diverted it is difficult to secure it to its original channel. 
 
 Mr. Eistine— The only thing which occurs to me is that 
 owing to the position which the matter assumed when we 
 were East, the Trunk Lines may consider that the Trans- 
 Continental Association did not make an effort did not pre- 
 sent the facts as an Association. Certainly Mr. Stubbs pre- 
 sented the facts to them ably, but they regarded his argu- 
 ments more in the light of an appeal from the "Sunset" 
 Eoute rather than from the Association, and it occurred to 
 me that possibly if a committee went there authorized to 
 act by the Association they might be able to influence them 
 to assist us in maintaining this traffic by all rail. We all 
 realize that the only way to maintain it is by the aid of 
 some few special contracts. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — "We went down there as representatives of 
 this Association for the purpose of getting the Trunk Lines 
 to adopt this Tariff, also to induce them to agree to a few 
 special contracts. 
 
 Mr. Eistine — Yes. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— When we got there the Trunk Lines switched 
 off from that and brought up the question of the " Sunset " 
 Eoute, saying they would not discuss the proposition of the 
 Tariff or the contracts at all until the question of the re- 
 striction of territory and the pool with the "Sunset" was 
 decided. The debate was altogether devoted to that par- 
 
47 
 
 ticular subject. I do not think that they need any light 
 upon the subject of contracts. I do not think we have any 
 new light to give them. We certainly had the opportunity 
 to give them all that was requisite or wanted on that day. 
 They understand it; but if there is any hope that it will 
 chauge their views, I think that the experiment would be 
 worth the trial. 
 
 The Commissioner— Mr. Hanuaford, what is your opinion 
 npon this proposition ? 
 
 Mr. Haxnaford — I think a committee could get some 
 concessions from the Trunk Lines in the way of specials, 
 from the talk we had there — that is, assuming that their 
 differences with the " Sunset" have been satisfactorily 
 adjusted. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I think we had better go ahead and see 
 whether we are going to have a Trans-Continental Associa- 
 tion before we proceed any further upon a proposition as to 
 what that Association shall or shall not do. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — Have you seen the circular of the Joint 
 Executive Committee? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Yes, I have seen it. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — I would suggest that the Commissioner 
 read it. 
 
 The Commissioner introduced the circular, reading as 
 follows: 
 
 Cibculab No. 674— Joint Executivk Committee. 
 
 Trctnk Line Commission. 1 
 
 34G Bjjoadway, New Yobb, Jan. 7, 85. ]"/ 
 
 Agreement Regarding Pacific Coast Trajfic. 
 
 Notice is here-by given that the following agreement regarding rates on 
 Pacific Coast traffic has been made : 
 
 That, taking effect January 8th, 1885, the following through rates shall ap- Trnnk Uam 
 ply on all traffic to Pacific Coast points from New York, Boston, Philadelphia < '" "' ' 
 and Baltimore and points common therewith: a. west- 
 
 bound rates. 
 
48 
 
 Classes i 1st 
 
 2d. 
 
 3d. 
 
 4th. 
 
 5th. 
 
 6th. 
 
 •7th. 
 
 8th. 
 
 9th. 
 
 10th. 
 
 $5.00 
 
 $4.00 
 
 $3.00 
 
 $2.75 
 
 $2.50 
 
 $2.25 
 
 $2.00 
 
 $1.75 
 
 $1.50 
 
 $1.25 
 
 Trans-Continental Association Classification No. 1, taking effect January 
 1st, 1885, to govern. 
 
 That the system of special contracts will be discontinued after December 
 31st, 1884, and all shipments shall be billed in accordance with the tariff. 
 
 It was also agreed that the " Sunset Koute" shall not take shipments from 
 any interior points west of New York, Philadelphia and Baltimore, nor from 
 New Jersey or Hudson Eiver points. 
 
 Referring to 
 suggested 
 telegram to 
 be sent the 
 Trunk Lines 
 see page 38. 
 
 Vote upon 
 the proposi- 
 tion to send 
 telegram to 
 Trunk Lines 
 
 Albert Fink, 
 
 Commissioner. 
 
 C. W. 
 
 BtJLLEN, 
 
 Secretary. 
 
 Objection to 
 forwarding 
 telegram to 
 Trunk Lines 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — That is not literally what was agreed to. We 
 did not agree that we would not take freight from New Jer- 
 sey points, that ought to be regarded as east of New York or 
 east of Trenton. 
 
 The Commissioner — This takes us back to the proposition 
 as to whether the dispatch proposed by Mr. Ristine shall 
 be forwarded or not. What is your opinion, Mr. Goddard? 
 
 Mr. Goddard — I have no objection. Bat I do not think 
 anything can be accomplished with the Trunk Lines either 
 by letter or message. They should be seen personally. 
 
 The question was submitted to vote, resulting in its unan- 
 imous acceptance. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— We are arranging to make rates from New 
 York half a cent per gallon higher than from Cleveland, cut- 
 ting the Sunset out and centering the business in the hands 
 of individuals. 
 
 Mr. Towne— Why not word your telegram to cover that ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— I advocated asking Pittsburgh, Buffalo and 
 Cleveland rate from New York. There is another reason 
 why that dispatch should not go. It is this: that it contem- 
 plates making the rates open, that is, the rates as named in 
 that dispatch, open to everybody, while part of our agree- 
 
49 
 
 ment with the Standard Oil Company was that these pro- 
 posed rates should be special to them, and that others should 
 take the Open Tariff. If that dispatch is answered favorably, 
 and the rates are put iu, we violate our agreement with 
 these parties, and there is then no ageeement on any Oil 
 rates. 
 
 Mr. Towne — Let the m9ssage be worded to cover the 
 ground. My vote will stand the same, but I think we should 
 word the message so as to cover that point. 
 
 Mr. Kistine was of the opinion that it would not have 
 that effect and argued that the only parties who could carry 
 Oil iu tank cars were the Standard and Continental Com- 
 panies. 
 
 Mr. Towne offered the following : 
 
 Resolved, That the agreement to send dispatch to Assistant Commissioner Resolution 
 
 Gailford, covering the Oil business for the year 1885, be reconsidered, and the reconsider- 
 
 matter referred to therein be placed in the hands of the Committee which sending of 
 
 it is proposed be appointed to wait upon him at an early day in conneclion m^^Lines 
 
 with other matters of interest to this Association. and placing 
 
 the matter 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Miller. 5 ^cSS*" 
 
 mittee. 
 
 Adopted. 
 
 Mr. Towne— I move that the requirements of the Com- 
 mittee be drawn and submitted. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs thought that the contract with the Oil men Further dis- 
 would be a subject for conference with the Middle States oTrates? 1 
 Lines, as they would certainly be governed by the action of 
 the Trunk Lines. 
 
 Mr. Towne — (to Mr. Ristine) — I had an idea from you 
 that the Association were committed to this special rate to 
 these Oil Companies. 
 
 Mr. Hi stive — Mr. Stubbs and myself had a conference 
 with the Standard and Continental Oil Companies in my 
 office when I was Commissioner, and wo made a proposition 
 to them of 7} cents per gallon on tank, and I think 8J cents 
 
50 
 
 on case, and we jointly indited a letter at that time to Mr. 
 Vaillant, and sent copy of it to Mr. Midgley. 
 
 [Letter read.] 
 
 Mr. Ristine — To that Mr. Vaillant replied that he expected 
 to meet us shortly, and preferred to leave the matter open 
 until that time. Mr. Midgley replied that the proposition 
 contained in our letter was acceptable to them — that is, 7J 
 tank and 8 f case. Bat before we went to Chicago Mr. Stubbs 
 received telegram from Mr. Tilford that the rates were en- 
 tirely too high, and that they could not afford to pay them. 
 
 Mr. Ristine explained the result of the conference between 
 the representatives of the Trans-Continental and Middle and 
 Western States Associations and the Oil Companies at Chi- 
 cago, and stated that the understanding was that the rates 
 would apply from Buffalo, Pittsburgh and Cleveland. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — That was the understanding, but later on 
 you had an interview with Mr. Midgley with the effect of the 
 fact being elicited that if the Trunk Lines said there should 
 be no contracts they would have no special contracts; hence 
 he took the ground that that superseded his assent to our 
 original proposition. 
 
 Mr. Towne — The matter of how to reach it I do not care 
 very much about. I hope, however, you will keep it off the 
 clippers. 
 
 Mr. Goddard— I do not understand, Mr. Chairman, that 
 they have withdrawn any action regarding interior business 
 from what was done in Chicago. They agreed to stand in 
 with the Trunk Lines on Seaboard business. The Trunk 
 Lines have no interest in, nor have they any right to inter- 
 fere with the Middle States Lines as to business from Cleve- 
 land and Pittsburgh. My understanding is that the action 
 taken in Chicago, still stands absolutely. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — You are taking a contrary action to that 
 which you took in Chicago. \I labored very hard to get that 
 out of Mr. Midgley. I labored to find whether they would 
 
51 
 
 stand in with the Trunk Lines on Atlantic seaboard busi- 
 ness, and whether they meant their action to apply on all 
 business. Report came back that they propossd to do pre- 
 cisely as the Trunk Lines did. If there were no special 
 contracts from New York, there wonld be none from Chi- 
 cago. That is what I understand the position to be nowj] 
 If I am wrong, I want to be set right. 
 
 Mr. Miller — I think you are right. 
 
 Mr Ristine — I should infer that these Oil rates were sep- 
 arate from and independent of the general tariff. 
 
 The Commissioner— Relative to the Oil from Cleveland, I 
 received a telegram from Mr. Vaillant asking how he should 
 bill oil from Cleveland, to which I replied: "At $1.50 to 
 outside parties." 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— I think that is all right so far as Cleveland 
 and Buffalo are concerned, but still the record stands so 
 that if they choose to do it Mr. Midgley could say: "You 
 had notice that we would not join in any of these rates." 
 
 Mr. Miller — They have issued list of arbitraries to apply 
 on this business, regardless of origin. That is why I think 
 you are correct. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— Would it not be a pretty good idea to ascer- 
 tain how we stand on this ? 
 
 Mr. Goddard — Does not the resolution of Mr. Towne 
 place the whole question in the hands of a proposed Com- 
 mittee ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— Do you not think, Mr. Goddard, that we 
 should take some immediate action on this subject? These 
 men I think understand that the contract is off, and I feel 
 that we ought to take care of them; in other words, if the 
 Iowa lines or any lines east go back on this special, that 
 until we give them notice and they have an opportunity to 
 change their method of doing the business, the Trans-Con- 
 tinental Association will see them out in the matter, no mat- 
 
52 
 
 ter what it costs. Therefore, I think it would be wise for 
 us to ascertain exactly from the lines west of Pittsburgh and 
 Chicago whether they are going to stand in on these con- 
 tracts or not. 
 
 The Commissioner — On the same day that we sent the let- 
 ter to Mr. Guilford we sent a letter to Mr. Midgley, making 
 rate from Chicago 7 cents on tank and 7J on case, and ask- 
 ing him to reply by wire, but he has not replied as yet. I 
 don't know whether he will accept or not. 
 
 Mr. Sttjbbs — If steps have been taken to achieve this re- 
 sult we need not discuss it further; but I want to ascer- 
 tain just how we stand on this whole business. We have 
 labored for years to get it fixed to our lines, and we now 
 have it fixed very nicely — better, possibly, than it ever was 
 before — and where we think we could profit by the efforts we 
 have made in the past, and now these new complications have 
 arisen which threaten our feeling of security. 
 
 The Commissioner — This proposition of 7 cents in tanks 
 makes the rate from Chicago the same as it was from 
 Cleveland last year. I think they will accept it without 
 demur. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I do not know that any very serious result 
 would follow if we did not secure the Cleveland rates from 
 New York. At the same time I think we ought to make the 
 rates the same. 
 
 Mr. Ristine— I think we will receive some reply before 
 this meeting adjourns, and that the matter is in good shape to 
 rest just as it is for a day or two. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I move — 
 
 Kesoiution That we proceed in the order of the resolution adopted yesterday. 
 
 Procedure — 
 
 seepages. Adopted. 
 
 Territorial The Commissioner read the first clause of the resolution, 
 Ex V pr3ons and declared that to be the first question for debate. 
 
 upon. 
 
53 
 
 Tbe Commissioner— Mr. Kimball, I would ask you if you 
 think there should be any change so far as your Company 
 is concerned in regard to the territorial division heretofore 
 existing? 
 
 Mr. Kimball — I think that the territorial division is sat- 
 isfactory. 
 
 The Commissioner— What is your opinion, Mr. Oakes? 
 
 Mr. Oakes — I think that is all right. 
 
 The Commissioner asked for expressions from the repre- 
 sentatives of the Southern Lines upon the question. 
 
 No objections being ottered, and the morning having 
 already been expended, a recess was taken until 2 p.m. 
 
 Thursday, January 15th — Afternoon Session. 
 Meeting convened at 2.30 p. m. 
 All members represented. 
 The Commissioner— The matter of Mr. Stubbs* resolution, Territorial 
 
 n • e i *ii i division and 
 
 the first clause of which, referring to the territorial boundary terms there- 
 lines between the Northern and the Southern Lines, seemed sionupon. 
 to be acceptable to the members this morning, the next 
 subject for debate, under the order of the resolution, is the 
 second clause, which proposes two pools as between the 
 Southern Lines. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I thought before we adjourned that the 
 matter of the first section of the resolution was under dis- 
 cussion. 
 
 The Commissioner — I understood it to be settled by com- 
 mon consent. The question was submitted, and there cer- 
 tainly were no objections. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Let me call your attention to the fact that 
 tli.it first section involves moro than perhaps you might 
 think from a cursory reading. Mr. Kimball asked me a 
 
54 
 
 question, when the resolution was under discussion, what I 
 meant by territorial division, to which I replied that I meant 
 not only the division of the territory, but also the terms un- 
 der which each would consent to occupy that territory and 
 that alone. Now, the mere fact that we all agree that the 
 northern boundary of California shall constitute the line of 
 demarcation between the territories, does not constitute a 
 complete agreement as to the territorial division. Why? 
 because the Oregon Short Line, the O. R. & N. and the 
 Northern Pacific Companies have not consented to occupy 
 that territory as yet, and they will not until we say some- 
 thing to them and we have not consented to occupy the terri- 
 ritory south of that until we have made some trade with these 
 gentlemen. Therefore the first section, as I understand 
 it, brings up the whole question as to whether the O. S. L., 
 O. R. & N., and Northern Pacific Companies will consent 
 to occupy the territory north of the boundary line, and if 
 they will, upon what terms, and then whether we can agree 
 upon those terms. 
 
 The Commissioner— Mr. Kimball was asked his opinion 
 on that matter, and he stated that the territorial division 
 was perfectly satisfactory. I believe Mr. Hannaford simi- 
 larly expressed himself. 
 
 Mr. Kimball — The physical division of territory is satis- 
 factory. As Mr. Stubbs states it, the question is upon the 
 terms of occupation of that territory. 
 
 The Commissioner — We will consider then that the matter 
 of the first section is still open for debate. 
 
 Mr. Oakes — Mr. Chairman, gentlemen, you will remem- 
 ber at Chicago, just before, we adjourned, that I offered a 
 motion, asking that the Association allow to the Northern 
 Lines eight per cent, of the gross revenue on San Francisco 
 business, less, of course, the deductions which have been 
 conceded, from time to time, and when that resolution was 
 offered, Mr. Goddard, if I remember right, submitted an 
 amendment. I asked for eight per cent, and he asked, if 
 
55 
 
 action was had upon that proposition, that eight per cent., 
 
 or any other percentage that might be agreed upon, should 
 
 be allowed to the Southern Lines upon Portland business. 
 
 Since I have been here I have had some talk with other 
 
 members of the Association, and we have studied to reach 
 
 some solution of the question that would be acceptable to 
 
 Mr. Goddard and to others of the Association, who think 
 
 that some allowance should be made to the Southern Lines 
 
 as well as to the Northern Lines; and I have prepared a forTem"™ 
 
 rough memo, here of the results under a proposition which SShcm 
 
 I am about to submit. Terrltory - 
 
 We find from the Commissioner's statements that the ac- compara- 
 tual gross earnings on Portland business for nine months SjJolP 1 " 
 amount to §1,277,394; on San Francisco business for same iSoeS? 
 period, §5,791,000. I have added to the figures of each SuSSm? 
 point an estimated amount for the three remaining months 
 of the year, at the same rate per month; that is, I have added 
 one-third, which brings the total up to $1,703,000 for Port- 
 land, and for San Francisco $7,721,000. The net result of SSSUL2L" 
 an allowance of ten per cent, on the business of each place onUie C bu8i- 
 would be to yield to the Northern Lines 7J per cent, instead point 
 of 6 per cent., which amount they are now receiving. Mr. 
 Stubbs has figured the actual amount for nine months, or 
 rather has figured upon the actual revenue for nine months. 
 He makes it very nearly eight per cent. 
 
 I would say, if this proposition is accepted, the Northern 
 Lines would be willing, and it might be qualified that they encebe- 
 sball in no event receive to exceed seven and one-half per ehangMbta 
 
 percentages 
 
 cent, as the net difference between the two allowances, nottoex- 
 
 . ceed 7 ii per 
 
 Deducting from this amount the amount we pay out for ex- cent 
 penses, would leave $529,781, say 6f per cent. I think if b«tf 
 this allowance is made an agreement can be reached between 
 the Northern Pacific and the Union Pacific for division of 
 the amount, and I do not well see how any agreement can 
 be arrived at as between the two companies, unless some 
 additional allowance is made to the Northern Lines, an 
 amount that will in some degree compensate the Northern 
 ific for what they will have to yield to the Union Pacific. 
 
56 
 
 tiv™ P gro a wth From observation of the growth of business at the two 
 at san Fran- P oia t s > I arn confident that the ratio of growth in the busi- 
 poSan 1 !? ness °^ Portland will far exceed that of San Francisco, and 
 in a proposition of this kind there is an element which ap- 
 peals to some members of this Association. The best illus- 
 tration I can give of it would be the experience of the inves- 
 tor who always wanted a good bond — always wanted a first 
 class first mortgage bond— a bond about which there could 
 be no question at all. In buying that bond he wanted an 
 element of speculation. There is an element of speculation 
 in this proposition, and I think in the next twelve months, 
 and before the year is through, if will be found that the As- 
 sociation actually will not be called upon to pay the Northern 
 Lines as much as they have paid the past year, and I think it 
 is a proposition that is entitled to the serious consideration of 
 the Association, and I submit it in the best of faith, for the 
 -2rousof de * s °l e purpose of bringing about harmony, and in the belief that 
 competition ^ G Northern Pacific is conceding a good deal. I very much 
 doubt if the Northern Pacific the last year has been prop- 
 erly compensated for keeping out of this field, but we 
 agreed to stand by it and we have done so. We do not 
 want to go into San Francisco. We feel if we ever should 
 enter the San Francisco field for business it would be very 
 difficult for us to withdraw. On the other hand, we feel 
 that if. the Gentral Pacific entered the Portland field it 
 would be very difficult for them to withdraw, and we would 
 never have peace. It would still further complicate the 
 situation, and be still more difficult to arrive at any ar- 
 rangement that would do as full justice to all the interests 
 involved as an arrangement such as we have had the last 
 year, and which I hope we will have during this year. 
 
 The Commissioner asked for expressions on the part of 
 the Southern Lines upon the proposition. 
 
 position of ]yf r> Goddard — I cannot speak from the text, as I have 
 
 A.,l.fiB.J). ■*- 
 
 o?n p^sub 1 - no ^ n o ure( l sufficiently to argue the matter intelligently. I 
 
 sid y- can say as a principle, however, that it seems to me that the 
 
 amount we have been allowing to the Northern Lines is 
 
57 
 
 certainly ample, and I have no reason to expect that our 
 people would consent to an increase of that amount, 
 whether it stands as it is to-day, or whether it is exchange- 
 able on a percentage of Portland and San Francisco busi- 
 ness. That portion of it makes but little difference to us. 
 
 Mr. Muir — I would like to know how much the Associa- P . M .8.s. 
 tion pays to the Pacific Mail account of subsidy ? subsidy. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— $95,000 per month both ways. Probably, 
 deducting amount of credit account of space, it amounts to 
 $55,000 or $60,000 per month. 
 
 The Commissioner presented statement of the subsidy 
 paid from October 1, 1883, to November 30, 1884, which 
 showed total of $910,901.79 for that period. 
 
 Mr. Goddard— It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that per- second 
 haps it is a favorable time to raise the questiou as to theyau'g- 
 whether the extension of a line already constructed, form- tion of any 
 ing a second route to a given point, adds to its strength in tion of per" 
 the consideration of percentages. There is a principle in- 
 volved in this question that possibly we may be interested 
 in later. We might get that principle settled. 
 
 Mr. Stebbins — Are you willing to take your percentage on 
 the basis of your connection with the D. & R. G., your 
 short line? 
 
 Mr. Goddard — I do not quite understand your proposi- 
 tion. 
 
 M i . Oakes— He wants to make a partner of you as via 
 the D. & R. G., it being your short line. 
 
 Mr. Goddard— I do not know, Mr. Stebbins, but what 
 that would be a good proposition — one worthy of considera- 
 tion. 
 
 Mr. Stebbins— I understood that what you were getting 
 at was that the Oregon Short Line does not increase the ca- 
 ity of the Union Pacific for earnings; that it should bo 
 tested by its short line to Ogden. 
 
58 
 
 Mr. Goddard — That was as to California business. It is 
 a question that applies in several different shapes, and I 
 thought perhaps we had better settle it. 
 
 Mr. Oakes — Yours would be almost a parallel case. You 
 have already your San Francisco Line; you will have your 
 line to San Diego. 
 
 Proposition 
 of Northern 
 Lines. (See 
 page 55.) 
 
 Discussion deferred. 
 
 Mr. Oakes— I submitted a proposition. 
 Association to take some action upon it. 
 
 I would like the 
 
 The Commisssoner — The proposition submitted by Mr. 
 Oakes relative to the terms associate with the division of 
 terrritory as between the members, is before the meeting. 
 No one but Mr. Goddard has as yet expressed himself upon 
 the proposition. 
 
 Mr. Oakes — You can consider the proposition as a reso- 
 tion; so much of it as applies to the percentages proposed 
 to be allotted as between the Northern and Southern Lines. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Stubbs. 
 
 Mr. Kimball — Mr. Chairman, if I understand this pro- 
 position, it is that the Southern Lines or California Lines 
 
 On subdi- 
 vision be- 
 tween 
 
 Linesofpro- pay ten per cent, to the Northern Lines of the revenue upon 
 sidy. San Francisco business, and that the Northern Lines pay to 
 
 the Southern Lines ten per cent, of the revenue upon 
 Portland business, but that there is no provision in that 
 resolution to determine how much of the subsidy paid by 
 Southern Lines to the North shall go to either member of 
 the Associated Lines on the North. 
 
 Mr. Towne — That would be a matter between yourselves. 
 
 Mr. Kimball — So that is a matter to adjust between our- 
 selves. My friend, Mr. Oakes, has had more experience in 
 " blind pools" than I have, and I would like to know in 
 some definite form how the Union Pacific interest would 
 come out on that proposition. If I am not mistaken in my 
 figures, the Union Pacific on that basis, taking $1,750,000 as 
 
the revenues on Portland, and 87,750,000 for the revenues 
 on San Francisco, the Union Pacific interest — treating on 
 the north the lines as one, and on the south making our 
 percentage practically that we have under the Tucker 
 award — would contribnte $242,000 of that subsidy we pay 
 into the pool on the North and the pool on the South. But if 
 Mr. Oakes is not ready to declare the basis of division 
 between the two companies, I am willing for the first time 
 to go in with the Northern Pacific on a " blind pool," and I 
 will vote " Aye " on the resolution. 
 
 Mr. Oakes — Do you want me to state publicly what we 
 are willing to do ? 
 
 Mr. Kimball — No; it is not necessary. 
 
 The vote stood as follows : subsidy 11 
 
 proposition; 
 
 Ayes— G. H. & S. A., N. P., O. E. & N., U. P.— 4. It there " 
 
 Nays— A. T. S. P., A. <fe P., B. & M., C. P., D. & R. G., 
 D. <fc R. G. W., S. P., T. & P.— 8. 
 
 Declared lost. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— Can vou tell us what the vote was on the Votes on 
 
 * l>rvvi<>us 
 
 eight per cent, proposition at Chicago ? subsidy 
 
 tious. 
 
 The Commissioner— Ayes 6, nays 6, upon Mr. Goddard's 
 amendment; ayes 3, nays 8, upon Mr. Oakes' resolution. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— What percentage did the Union Pacific pay JLi'Jft 
 of the Northern Pacific subsidy ? !ssV ll>1,iv 
 
 The Commissioner— From November, 1883, to July 31, 
 1884, they have paid 26 £ per cent. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Under Mr. Tucker's award, if that is correct, 
 they would pay about 18 per cent. 
 
 The Commissioner— If the Tucker award covered the whole 
 settlement, they would. 
 
 Mr 8TUBB8 — Passenger and Freight together, say 20 per 
 cent., and the other lines would only have to pay four-fifths 
 of the subsidy, and in round numbers the subs i < ly is 6 per cent. 
 
60 
 Mr. Ristine submitted the following: 
 
 Proposition Resolved, That the Southern Lines allow to the Northern Lines — that is, 
 Lines! 1 ' 1 " 3 " 1 the 0re g° n Short Line, the Oregon Railway & Navigation and Northern Pa- 
 cific Companies — a moneyed allowance of & per cent, on San Francisco busi- 
 ness, to be divided between the lines in interest in such manner as they can 
 agree upon, and that the Northern Lines pay to the Southern Lines 6 per 
 cent, on Portland traffic. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Goddard. 
 Question on Mr. Oakes — I would like to know if it is the desire of this 
 
 latent of 
 
 resolution. Association to break up, and whether there is no Line here 
 having the courage to take a step in that directiou; because, 
 if it is the desire of the Association to break here, I can tell 
 them that the Northern Pacific stands ready to break it so 
 far as they are concerned. 
 
 Amendment Mr. Stubbs — I move to amend, substituting "8 per cent." 
 
 thereto. ° r 
 
 for "6 per cent." wherever it appears. I think it is idle to 
 waste time upon a proposition which we know will not be 
 accepted. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Eccles. 
 
 Adopted unanimously. 
 
 The Commissioner — Upon the resolution as amended 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— I wish to state that I vote for that resolution 
 Northern with the understanding that another resolution, or an under- 
 shareinp. standing which will be a matter of record, be reached, to 
 other subs?- the effect that this is done in consideration of the one keep- 
 ing out of the other's territory, and also with the under- 
 standing that these Northern Lines shall agree, as the North- 
 ern Pacific has in the past, to pay their share of Pacific Mail 
 and other subsidies. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — That is my understanding of it. 
 
 ment°of h " ^ r - Oakes— I think there should be a resolution such as 
 nnefon 6 ^ Mr. Stubbs suggests. When it comes to vote I shall also 
 othe7.° f the move as a further understanding, if the resolution be adopted 
 rlvfnue 0t ty ^ ie Association, that the gross revenue from the entire 
 detetoSpon Oregon business done by the Southern Lines shall be re- 
 
61 
 
 ported and paid to the Northern Lines, and that the gross 
 revenue from the entire business for southern territory done 
 by the Northern Lines shall be paid by said Northern Lines 
 to the Southern Lines. Each territory is entitled to full and 
 absolute protection against the encroachments of the lines 
 in the other — a thing that will work both ways. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — If 1 understand your suggestion, it is 
 that if you carry any San Francisco business, notwith- 
 standing you receive full rates thereon, you turn the 
 revenue over to us, and vice versa on Portland business. I 
 prefer not to answer now, but it strikes me that I should be 
 very unwilling to take a position that would require me or 
 my agent to say to a man who offers goods, which may or 
 may not be ultimately destined to Portland, charging full 
 rates thereon to San Francisco, that he must refuse them. 
 
 Mr. Shelby— It has been done right along. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I don't think we could legally take that 
 position. I am perfectly willing to do anything that will 
 secure a fair aud square maintenance of rates; to do every- 
 thing that I can to discourage shipments this way, but I do 
 not want to be drawn into a position of doing what the law 
 would not permit us to do. 
 
 Mr. Oakes — I do not think you will ever be called upon 
 to decide a question of that kind if the full rates are 
 quoted. But during the demoralization, which lasted two 
 or three months, we proved beyond question that a revenue 
 of $12,000 had been diverted, which was due to the fact of 
 very low rates ruling via San Francisco. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — You know how that came about. We charged 
 Contract rates on it. As soon as my attention was called to 
 m.I -aid to the Commissioner that under the Contract I held 
 that we had the right to do that, but nevertheless, when- 
 ever he wished to issue an order or ruling to the effect 
 that full tariff — Open Tariff — should be charged by either 
 u business known to be destined to the other's territory, 
 that we should abide by it 
 
62 
 
 Mr. Oakes — I take it to be the sense and desire of the 
 members of this Association to have an absolute territorial 
 division, and with that understanding I am willing to con- 
 form to any arrangement that may be agreed upou which 
 will carry out that idea. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — Let me ask you one question: Suppose the 
 Northern line should be disabled, should you ask that the 
 revenue be turned over then ? 
 
 Mr. Oakes — I should be willing to qualify it, that when- 
 ever either line is blocked, we shall recognize such physical 
 fact. 
 
 Mr. Ristine— It should be qualified. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Suppose British Columbia merchants should 
 fear something of that kind, and send freight our way, and 
 ive should charge full tariff to San Francisco, and be able to 
 absolutely prove to you that we did not seek this traffic, 
 what would be your position ? When we had the scheme of 
 Contract Rates and Open Tariff, it was very difficult to control 
 that matter, but now that we proceed upon one tariff, it 
 seems to me you have nothing to fear. If this agreement is 
 had we shall do our utmost to satisfy you in the matter as to 
 good faith, and discourage it wherever we can, so far as our 
 interest goes. 
 
 »» The vote stood: 
 
 of Southern 
 
 .Lines. Ayes— A. T. & S. ¥., A. & P., B. & M., C. P., D. & R. 
 
 G., D. & R. G. W., G. H. & S. A., S. P., T. & P.— 9. 
 
 Nays— N. P., O. R. N., U. P.— 3. 
 Declared lost. 
 
 justice of Mr. Stubbs —I do not know but what we might just as well 
 debatTJTpon talk right out in meeting on this proposition. As I figured 
 it, taking nine months' business, as figured by the Commis- 
 sioner, this proposition, which has just been voted down 
 because it requires unanimity, would result in a net revenue 
 to the Northern Lines of 6 / per cent, of the San Francisco 
 
63 
 
 revenue, an increase of four-tenths per cent. I have heard 
 indirectly that an offer was made I believe to the Union 
 Pacific, to be relieved by the other lines, on account of 
 its Oregon Short Line, of its proportion of whatever sub- 
 sidy was paid, and that on the allowed 6 percent, amounted 
 to about 2 per cent. This would give the Northern Pacific 
 and O. R. & N,, net 4 per cent. And I presume that the 
 Northern Pacific and O. R. & N. could afford to go a step 
 further, and say they would also be allowed the excess of the 6 
 per cent., which amount would practically give them 2 ^ per 
 cent. Now, I honestly think that 2 jj per cent, or thereabouts, 
 is all that the Uu on Pacific ought to ask, even if it can con- 
 sistently ask anything on account of its Oregon Short Line. 
 In the first place, I do not think that the Union Pacific can 
 legally divert a pound of San Francisco business after once 
 touching its line, to the Oregon Short Line. In the second 
 place, the route via Portland is certainly not as good a 
 route as the one direct over the Central Pacific. It could 
 hardly expect to do business via Portland to San Francisco, 
 to send what it chose that way and to use the Central Pa- 
 cific as a convenience. I give this simply as a matter of 
 opinion, as though I were occupying a disinterested stand- 
 point; that it would have to use the Portland route for all 
 or none of the San Francisco business. I want it under- 
 stood that I do not say that this argument indicates any 
 policy on the part of the Central Pacific. I am not qualified 
 to speak on that point, Mr. Kimball. I speak as though I 
 lined no relation to the Central Pacific interest. Inde- 
 pendent of that proposition, the moment the Union Pacific at- 
 tempts to divert San Francisco freight via Portland, it aban- 
 dons a good line for a bad line. Relatively, it certainly in- 
 creases its time, increases its transfers, and puts itself in a 
 very disadvantageous position as compared with the Atchi- 
 son and Atlantic & Pacific Line, and I think we can afford 
 to stand on the eight per cent proposition, and i believe 
 that the representatives of the Union Pacific can afford to sup- 
 pOti the proposition, and justify their actiou to the owners 
 of their road. 
 
 Legal aspect 
 
64 
 
 Mr. Kimball — I would like to know what Mr. Stubbs 
 means when he says that the Union Pacific, or Union Pa- 
 cific men, cannot ship direct to San Francisco by way of the 
 Oregon Short Line, after freight has once come into posses- 
 sion of that company. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I said that it was my opinion that the Union 
 Pacific had no legal right to divert freight after it had once 
 come on to the Union Pacific Line, destined for San Fran- 
 cisco, off from its line to the Oregon Short Line. 
 
 Mr. Kimball — I do not see the force of your argument. 
 The lines in question are built under one charter, officered 
 by the same men, and the business would be conducted 
 upon the same basis as any other west-bound business pass- 
 ing over our line. I would like to have you explain how 
 that principle would apply to the "Sunset Route," to the 
 Deming & El Paso Route, to the Mojave Route. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — The position of the two lines is entirely differ- 
 ent — different in principle. The freight that the " Sunset " 
 Line takes up does not touch the Central Pacific at all until 
 it is handed to it; and the Southern Pacific has a free and 
 independent entrance into San Francisco by contract. 
 
 Explanation ]\^ r# Kimball — I might as well explain, while I am about 
 
 ot Northern ° L * 
 
 coSract 6 *'» another thing. It may not be known to the members of 
 the d rlo? ct *k' s Association, but it is nevertheless the fact, that the 
 Union Pacific, the Oregon Short Line and the O. R. & N. 
 are all under a contract by which the O, R. & N. can de- 
 clare the line open from San Francisco to Omaha and 
 Council Bluffs via the Union Pacific, and we are bound to 
 keep it open to receive and handle traffic as may be de-. 
 livered to us. Now, the O. R. & N. Co. come here and say 
 to this Association, "We are willing to compromise the 
 opportunity we have to take traffic by this line. We have 
 served no notice on the Union Pacific and Oregon 
 Short Line that we are in the field for San Francisco 
 business, and we are not prepared to do it until we 
 ascertain whether any consideration will be given to 
 
65 
 
 our interest by a subsidy." And I say this now, and 
 I know it will turn out true, that unless a reasonable 
 and fair consideration is given that interest, we shall be 
 called upon inside of thirty days to open the lina. There- 
 fore we must weigh tint question for what it is worth, and 
 meet it here an I now. I am not here begging a subsidy for 
 the Oregon Short Line. I am not here asking what is an 
 unreasonable consideration for keeping out of San Fran- 
 cisco, taking the situation into account. Now, it is for us, 
 as the Trans-Continental Association, to weigh carefully all 
 the considerations in the present situation, and decide fairly, 
 and make an agreement and live up to it, squarely. If we 
 have asked too much we will take less, but I want to be con- 
 vinced that the subsidy we have asked is too much. 
 
 Mr. Stdbbs — I did not understand, Mr. Kimball, that the 
 O. R. & N. had the right to open that line. I supposed 
 that you would open it west-bound, and that possibly there 
 might be a reciprocal understanding that they open it east- 
 bound. I have read the contract, but have not noticed the 
 point you raise. I know this, however, if I remember the 
 terms of the contract correctly, that the O. R. & N. Co. 
 get nothing in addition to their Portland percentage for the 
 service performed between Portland and San Francisco, 
 and so far as San Franoisco business is concerned, it would 
 be done based on the revenue they get out of Portland busi- 
 ness, they doing the work to San Francisco for nothing, and 
 I think they would hardly enforce the opening of the line 
 on such conditions. We do not understand that the O. R. 
 .- N. urge this point. We do understand that the Union 
 Pacific and Oregon Short Line urge this point. We would 
 not have any difficulty in getting along with the O. R. & N. 
 if it was not for the Union Pacific. 
 
 Mr. GtODDABD — I can only speak for our own Company, 
 that so far as the subsidy for the Northern Lines is con- 
 cerned, I have gone beyond my limit already, and I cannot 
 consider auy proposition which would increase that amount. 
 
 A. T. k s. F. 
 
 ultimatum. 
 
Mr. Oakes — T move fchit we adjourn uutil to morrow morn- 
 ing at 10 o'clock. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Miller. 
 
 Carried. 
 
 Friday, January l&h — Morning Session. 
 
 loadS/etc.! The Commissioner — Before the regular business of this 
 ra?"on. 01 meeting is taken up I should like to present a telegram I 
 have received from Mr. Midgley, asking for a rate which I 
 should prefer that the Association decide. He asks 
 rate on a Ballast Unloader, 2800 pounds, and on one Steam 
 Shovel, thirty tons, both on their own wheels, Chicago to 
 San Francisco. It has been suggested that the Excavator 
 rate be applied to the Steam Shovel, which would give a 
 revenue west of the River of $435, and on Ballast Unloader 
 Empty Flat Car rate, both transported on their own wheels. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs was of the opinion that the Association does 
 not want them on their own wheels, and that they should 
 take a pretty good rate, as it could not be considered an ex- 
 periment, as considerable trouble had previously proceeded 
 from the haulage of similar traffic. 
 
 Mr. Ristine proposed telegraphing Mr. Midgley for the 
 dimensions of the running gear, as they generally had very 
 small wheels, and it was necessary that they should come 
 inside the limits prescribed by the classification. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs stated that he had no objection, provided they 
 were on regular freight car trucks and of such dimensions 
 as could be safely transported over the grades and curves of 
 the Central or Southern Pacific roads, and if the outside 
 measurement would permit their safe passage of the plat- 
 . forms, snow-sheds and tunnels. He, however, desired it 
 understood that the Central Pacific reserved the right of 
 inspection at El Paso, Deming, Mojave or Ogden, and of 
 refusal if found to be inconsistent with the requirements; 
 further, that the guarantee of rates would be considered as 
 abrogated. 
 
67 
 
 It was agree 1 to forward to Commissioner Midgley the 
 following telegram : 
 
 Allowing eighteen, th msand pound* for ritmin? gear, will aocept Machinery 
 rate carload on balance Steam Shovel, provided trucks under same will pass 
 inspection at Missouri River and at Central and Southern Pacific eastern ter- 
 mi d, and provided also that the dimensions are within the limits prescribed 
 in the classification. Rate on Ballast Unloader, two hundred dollars, Missouri 
 River to San Francisco, subject to same inspection. 
 
 The Commissioner — Are there any suggestions to offer Northern 
 
 , -i > . , . , Lines" Sub- 
 
 npon the question 01 yesterday s session — the question of sidy; debate 
 subsidizing the Northern Lines? Mr. Kimball, have you 
 anything to offer ? 
 
 Mr. Kimball— Is there any motion or resolution before 
 the meeting? 
 
 The Commissioner — No, sir; only the matter of terms upon 
 wh'ch the Northern Lines will consent to occupy the north- 
 ern territory. The first section of the resolution upon the 
 Order of procedure has not yet been disposed of. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Mr. Chairman, we have had under considera- prop^ to 
 tion this question of terms of the territorial division between £S^ES ly 
 the Oregon Lines and the California Lines. We seem to Jesouuion. 
 have come to a stop. Perhaps it would be a good idea to 
 let the contestants get a little breath. We might afford to 
 take up another part o^ that resolution, and I would move 
 
 That we consider the question as to division of the pooled earnings as 
 en the lines forming the Eastern Pool, east of Ogden, Albuquerque, El 
 Paso and Deming. 
 
 This in order to invite suggestions, or to agree upon some 
 plan as to how these divisions shall be determined, in the 
 event that ultimately all the other questions are disposed of. 
 
 Not seconded. 
 
 Mr. Ristise offered the following: Beaoiution 
 
 vo fix 8ub- 
 Resolved, That the Lines known as the Southern or California Lines shal 1 uidy for 
 pay to the Oregon Short Line, Northern Pacific and Oregon Railway & Lines, and 
 Navigation Companies jointly in full of their shares, jointly and severally. £''k»|° 
 of the entire California business, eight per cent, of the earnings accruing to Seepage C9. 
 
68 
 
 the said Southern or California Lines on business betwean San Francisco and 
 points east of the 97th meridian of longitude on the East, except business 
 received from or delivered to the O. & O. S. S. Co. or the P. M. S. S. Co., 
 it being understood that the Oregon Short Line, Northern Pacific and 0. R. 
 & N. Co.'s share in all subsidies to be paid to the P. M. S. S. Co. or others, 
 in accordance with Section VII, and the Commissioner's expenses, in accord - 
 with Section XII; and the O. S. Line, N. P. and O. R. &N. Companies shall 
 pay to the Southern or California Lines in full of their shares of the entire 
 Oregon and Washington Territory business, eight per cent, on busines between 
 Portland and p nnts east of the 97th meridian of longitude on the East. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Eccles. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I would like to ask if that resolution does 
 not change the proposition of yesterday from applying the 
 eight per cent, to San Francisco business only and to Port- 
 land business only, to the eutire California business, and 
 the entire Washington Territory business, etc.? 
 
 Mr. Bistine— I think not. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — It seems to be worded so as to take care of 
 the expenses of the Commissioner, and subsidy of the 
 Pacific Mail. 
 
 Amendment Mr. Oakes — I move an amendment, by adding after the 
 bate e £ de " word " Portland"- 
 
 Save and excepting such business as may be destined to or coming from 
 points reached by the Occidental & Oriental and Pacific Mail Steamship 
 Companies. 
 
 The object of the amendment is to provide that the Ore- 
 gon Lines shall not pay into the pool revenue from business 
 from China and Japan. Suppose we should have a steam- 
 ship line before the end of the year. We should not want 
 to put it in unless you did. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs asked if that was not covered by the exclusion 
 of British Columbia, etc. ? 
 
 Mr. Oakes called attention to the fact that other Califor- 
 nia business is excluded, which should be considered as off- 
 setting the British Columbia and other exclusions. 
 
69 
 
 Mr. Sttbbs argued that none of the points excluded in 
 California could be considered on the same plane and in the 
 same sense as Tac<>ma, Seattle and other Northern points, 
 which are excluded. 
 
 Mr. Oakes thought such points could be reached by the 
 Pacific Coast Steamship Company, and that therefore one 
 should be considered as offsetting the other. 
 
 Mr. Goddard asked for the understanding. 
 
 Mr. Oakes — My understanding of that exception is this. 
 Two steamship lines belong to or are controlled by the Cen- 
 tral and Union Pacific Companies, hence we cannot properly 
 participate in tnat business. On the other hand, we may have 
 steamships engaged in the same business which we may con- 
 trol, and we could not consider that the Southern Lines 
 could legitimately participate in that business except by 
 mutual agreement. 
 
 Mr. Towne — Would not that be a proper subject to take 
 up when you are ready to put the steamers on ? 
 
 Mr. Oakes— You cover it so far as the Southern Lines 
 are concerned in the first part of the resolution. You should 
 eliminate it. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — T think you will find that this matter was de- 
 bated at the meeting here a year ago. We would be in ex- 
 actly the same boat if you should put on a steamship line. 
 
 Mr. Towne — I concede the point, and am willing that 
 it shall be included in the resolution. 
 
 The proposition was accepted by the authors of the resolu- Tm 
 tion and included therein. con.. 
 
 The Commi— iM\Kit— The resolution now reads as follows: 
 
 Resolved, That the lines known as the Southern or California Lines shall Resolution 
 pay to the Oregon Short Line, Northern Pacific and Oregon Railway & ■* fl 'i al | y 
 
 nation Companies jointly, in full of their shares, jointly and severally, 
 of the entire California business, eight per cent of the earnings accruing to 
 the said Southern or California Lines on business between San Francisco 
 
70 
 
 and points east of the 97th meridian of longitude on the East, except busi- 
 ness received from or delivered to the Occidental & Oriental Steamship Com- 
 pany or the Pacific Mail Steamship Company. It being understood that the 
 Oregon Short Line, Northern Pacific and Oregon Kail way & Navigation 
 Companies share in all subsidies to be paid to the Pacific Mail Steamship 
 Company or others, in accordance with Section VII, and the Commissioner's 
 expenses, in accordance with Section XII; and the Oregon Short Line, North- 
 ern Pacific and Oregon Kailway & Navigation Companies shall pay to the 
 Southern or California Lines, in full of their shares of the entire Oregon and 
 Washington Territory business, eight per cent, on business between Portland 
 and points east of the 97th meridian of longitude on the East, save and ex- 
 cepting business passing through Portland to or from Tran9-Pacific ports 
 reached by the Pacific Mail or Occidental & Oriental Steamship Companies. 
 
 Carried unanimously. 
 
 o. r. & n. Mr. Muir — Mr. Commissioner, it is understood of course 
 tfcipate*n that of the proportion of eight per cent, that is paid on 
 paidto y Portland business by the Northern to the Southern Lines, 
 Lines; de- the O. B. & N. will get its ocean proportion of that percent- 
 age, San Francisco to Portland. It forms part of the line 
 by which you get that eight per cent. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — Do you mean the proportion you receive 
 in connection with the Oregon Short Line ? 
 
 Mr. Mum — I mean our proportion of the eight per cent, 
 that is paid to the Southern Lines on Portland business. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — He means like this: The eight per cent, that 
 is subdivided between the Oregon Kailway & Navigation, 
 the Oregon Short Line and Northern Pacific Companies — 
 he credits a portion of that to the Steamer Line of the O. 
 B. & N. between Portland and San Francisco — and says 
 upon reversal of the proposition which provides that the 
 Northern Lines pay eight per cent, to the Southern Lines, 
 this Steamship Line, Portland to San Francisco, must be 
 regarded as part of the Southern Line. He wants to be on 
 both sides of the fence. I do not look at it in that way 
 at all. We are treating with the Northern Pacific, the Ore- 
 gon Short Line and the O. B. & N. as rail lines and com- 
 petitors, but not with your Steamship Line. 
 
71 
 
 Mr. MuiB — We pay you eight per cent, to keep out of 
 Port-laud. We form part of that line, and should get our 
 percentage. The O. R. & N. is an established line. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— In the same way the Central Pacific could 
 go in and put on their steamers. I think it would do it 
 uuder the circumstances if you are going to reason in that 
 way, 
 
 Mr. Muir — When that question comes up we might divide 
 that ocean percentage. Iu the meanwhile we are an estab- 
 lished line, and should have our proportion. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I say that you are not the only line — that 
 there is an independent line in that Northern business. We 
 set off to you the British Columbia business as well as 
 Portland, do we not? or to these Northern Lines, and 
 this is part of the consideration for setting that off. Now, 
 there is an independent line running between here and 
 British Columbia — sailing vessels controlled by merchants 
 hero. 
 
 Mr. Muir— You set that Northern territory off to us, and 
 we do not go down to your Southern ports, which we could 
 easily do. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— If you will read the resolution, you do not 
 accept eight per cent., or we do not pay you eight per cent., 
 for keeping out of San Francisco proper only. We pay you 
 eight per cent, for keeping out of the entire California busi- 
 ness. Likewise you pay us eight per cent., not to keep out 
 of Portland only, but to keep out of the Oregon, Washing- 
 ton Territory and British Columbia business. Now, there 
 are independent lines. If we should regard the O. R. & N. 
 steamer line as a part of this through line, and entitled to a 
 share of this eight per cent., I do not see why we should not 
 regard every sailing vessel passing between here and Port- 
 land as participants in that eight per cent. I do not know 
 herald not regard the steamers of the Central Pacific 
 as participants. 
 
72 
 
 Mr. Goddard — Did the resolution carry? 
 
 The Commissioner — Yes! 
 
 Informal discussion. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — We did not have any share in the subdivis- 
 ion of the six per cent, between the O. R. & N. and Northern 
 Pacific. We left that to yourselves. We will have a little 
 private seance with Mr. Prescott after this. 
 
 Mr. Oakes — I was going to suggest that this discussion had 
 better be deferred. 
 
 Mr. Eistine— I suppose Mr. Muir would be perfectly will- 
 ing to pool the earnings he gets from the Oregon Short Line 
 on San Francisco business. 
 
 Mr. Towne — We are going to ask you and Mr. Goddard to 
 come in on this Pool down south, on Pacific Coast ports. 
 
 No action was had upon Mr. Muir's claim. 
 
 upon the Mr. Goddard — I presume that the next business before the 
 
 question of . 
 
 two Pools meeting is the second clause of the resolution. 
 
 between the 
 Southern 
 
 Lines. Mr. bTUBBS — 1 will renew my motion — 
 
 That we proceed to discuss the methods of distribution of the earnings 
 between the Lines east of Ogden, Albuquerque, Deming and El Paso. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — Before proceeding on that, I would like to 
 ask whether the Western Lines will accept for themselves 
 such share as the Eastern Lines may determine upon for them- 
 selves in consideration of their natural connections ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I might as well answer that by an explana- 
 tion which it seems to me would be conclusive. The Cen- 
 tral Pacific, the Southern Pacific and the Atlantic & Pacific 
 Companies have now a pool of earnings that includes all 
 the earnings subject to this Pool. It stands like this: that 
 notwithstanding the settlement w T hich we have made on the 
 three months ending with December 31, there is still to be 
 another settlement as between the three roads upon an agree- 
 ment entered into previous to the October 1st Agreement of 
 
73 
 
 the Trans-Continental Association. I should like to see 
 that modified as they have more than they are entitled to. 
 Whether it will be necessary to modify it, or whether we 
 can get a modification of it, is another question; but because 
 of the subsistence of that Agreement I do not see that that 
 part of the question need delay the proceedings as to the 
 division of the earnings between the lines east of these 
 termini, it being understood, however, that a copy of the 
 Agreement, either as it is or as it shall be made between 
 these three Western Lines shall be filed with the Commis- 
 sioner who shall have jurisdiction over the Western Pool, 
 and a further understanding that when any modification is 
 made, or if they fail to agree upon a continuance of the 
 present Agreement or upon modification thereof, that that of 
 course will upset the whole result of our conference here. 
 
 The Commissioner — I would like to ask a question relative 
 to the subsidies and expenses. Are they to be determined 
 as heretofore ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — As I understand it, the object of that reso- 
 lution is simply making a division of the territory into two 
 Pools, as between lines East and West of the termini named, 
 but that every expense which is a charge against the lines, 
 as a whole, west of St. Paul and west of Missouri River, 
 Galveston and Houston, will be ascertained and subdivided 
 precisely as it has been in the past, unless we should sub- 
 sequently agree upon a different mode of dividing them, 
 and I do not think it will interfere with your accounting in 
 any way. You have to do the very same thing under one 
 Pool as you would have to do under the two. I do not 
 think it would increase the expense a particle. 
 
 Mr. Hi -tim;— I thought that was covered the other day — 
 that the three Western Companies shall be severed only so 
 s the percentages are concerned. 
 
 Mi. K imp. all— Mr. Chairman, if we should make declare- J^'j 
 ti'.u here that in tin; division <>!' Trans-Continental busi- 
 ness we shall treat the business west of the points of £* u *JJf5£J 
 
 junction as the business of the Central and Southern J^^S 
 
 logs. 
 
Pacific Railroads agreeing among ourselves to form two or 
 three General Lines, one by way of Ogden, taking in all 
 the connections of the Central Pacific east of that point, 
 another by way of Albuquerque and its connections east of 
 that point of junction, and a third would be designated as 
 the Deming & El Paso Line, taking the connections of the 
 Southern Pacific east of those points. We can declare 
 such amount of the total business of the Trans-Continental 
 Association as shall belong to one or to each of these 
 three Eastern Lines. Then the lines east of the point 
 of junction can agree among themselves as to the sub- 
 division of what is left of the earnings of each Line, after 
 deducting the regular proportions used by the Southern 
 and Central Pacific roads. I think we .shall simplify the 
 problem very much by agreeing to make these two or three 
 general Lines of each system. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Let me see if I understand that proposition. 
 That there shall be a grand division of the tonnage as be- 
 tween the three Lines, the Northern Line called the Central 
 Pacific Line, the Central Line called the Atlantic & Pacific 
 Line and the Southern called the Southern Line. Now, as- 
 suming for the purpose of illustration only, that we should 
 declare that the. total business shall be divided equally 
 between these three Lines, that would give to the Central 
 Pacific Line one-third, to the Atlantic & Pacific Line one- 
 third, and the Southern Pacific Line one-third. It would 
 follow then that the connections of the Central Pacific would 
 be entitled to one-third of the total business. Now, in case 
 it went to arbitration, or in case you undertake to settle it 
 here, the questions would be : First. What are the true 
 connections of the Central Pacific ? Second. What shall 
 be the division of this one-third of the gross earnings 
 between the several connections of the Central Pacific? 
 It would only be required first to determine what are the 
 connections of the Atlantic & Pacific; then what shall be 
 the subdivision of this one-third between the connections 
 
75 
 
 of the Atlantic & Pacific, and likewise for the Southern 
 Pacific. I think that could be done without interfering 
 with the plan for two Pools at all. 
 
 Mr. Kimball— I make that suggestion, Mr. Chairman, 
 with the understanding that the total business of the Trans- 
 Continental Association is as absolutely under the control 
 of that Association as if we pooled our earnings on the 
 basis of the Tucker award. It is only a question of how 
 we shall divide the revenues accruing under the Trans-Con- 
 tinental Association. On that proposition you would have 
 to determine first, what would be the division between the 
 three terminal Lines. 
 
 The Commissioner— Well, under that last proposition 
 would you consider it the proper thing to do in dividing 
 to take, say 46 per cent, or the Ogden percentage on all these 
 different routes ? 
 
 Mr. StUbbs— -No. The Central Pacific and its connections 
 would divide on their regular basis. It is not possible for 
 its connections to diyide until they know what they have to 
 divide. 
 
 Mr. Kimball— It would be 54 and 46 via Ogden. 
 
 The Commissioner — My idea was, what are the different 
 Terminal roads to accept of the entire business ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Suppose you should set off to the Central 
 Pacific one third V 
 
 The Commissioner— The supposition is not a good one. 
 You have not agreed on that. 
 
 Mi. Si in s— Suppose the Central Pacific Line between 
 Kansas City and San Francisco should earn $100,000. 
 Now, in the division of that business, $46,000 would go to 
 the Central Pacific road, and 54 per cent, to the connections 
 of that road. The 54 per cent, would then be divided be- 
 tween the Union Pacific, the D. <fe R. G. and the connec- 
 tions of the D. & R. G. If they should agree among them- 
 
selves that the Union Pacific take half, and the D. & E. G. 
 and connections take half, there would be 27 per cent, to 
 each route; then the percentage of the D. & R. Gr. would be 
 divided between itself and connections, and their regular 
 percentages would prevail, I presume. Now then, if that 
 Line were "short," and the other general Lines would have 
 to pay to them say $100,000, the first division of that 
 $100,000 would be 46 per cent, to the Central and 54 per 
 cent, to its eastern connections, then that 54 per cent, would 
 be divided in the manner I have explained. 
 
 The Commissioner — I did not understand the proposition. 
 I thought the three Terminal Lines were to take 100 per 
 cent, and divide among themselves. For illustration, that the 
 C. P. would take 40, the Southern Pacific 30, and the At- 
 lantic & Pacific 30 of the entire business. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I do not understand that that is the inten- 
 tion that the three Terminal Lines shall settle the question 
 of division between themselves. That is a matter these 
 connections would have some voice in. It would be a mat- 
 ter for the Association to determine. For example, if a 
 proposition was made here to divide, by giving the Central 
 Pacific one-half, and 25 per cent, each to the Atlantic & 
 Southern Pacific Lines, that proposition would have to be 
 submitted to vote of the entire Association. 
 
 After an extended informal discussion, recess was taken 
 until 2 p. m. 
 
 Friday, January 16th — Afternoon Session. 
 Meeting convened at 2 p. m. 
 All members represented, 
 commis- 'j;h e Commissioner — The question as to the formation of 
 
 sioner's re- i 1 -r • • -i i 
 
 marks. two Pools, as between the Southern Lines, is still open. 
 Mr. Kimball, have you any solution to offer? 
 
Mr. KlMBALL— I would offer the following: 
 
 Resolved, That in dividing the revenues of this Association, after January Resolutions 
 
 31 , 1885, there shall be assigned to each of three General Lines or Routes, for division 
 
 by mutual agreement or arbitration, its share of the total earnings from Trans- il^fon*? 
 
 Continental traffic. General 
 
 lines and 
 
 Resolvt d, That such lines shall be constituted as follows : discussion. 
 
 thereon. 
 
 First — The Central Pacific Railroad and its connections east of Ogden. 
 Second— The Southern Pacific and Atlantic & Pacific Railroads and connec- 
 tions east of Albuquerque. 
 Third— The Southern Pacific Railroad and its connections east of Deming 
 
 and El Paso. 
 
 • 
 
 Resolved, That when these general divisions of traffic have been so ascer- 
 tained, the lines west of the above named points of junction shall take their 
 regular percentages for the division of through rates, in dividing the award to 
 each geueral route. 
 
 Resolved, That such lines as constitute the portion of each of the General 
 Lines east of said junction points, shall at the earliest practicable date agree 
 upon the percentages for their respective routes. Failing to agree on- or be- 
 fore January 20th, these percentages shall be fixed by arbitration, the Arbitra- 
 tor to be agreed upon before January 21, 1885. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Goddard. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I would like to know whether that does not 
 have the effect of a substitute to the second portion of the 
 resolution which was passed the other day, practically 
 abandoning the idea of two Pools, and providing for 
 one general settlement? If it does, I do not think 
 we can vote for it When Mr. Kimball spoke of that 
 plan, in fact when I read the resolution, I supposed that 
 the idea was simply to declare in the judgment of the Asso- 
 ciation what portion of the total traffic was due to each of 
 -e General Lines; and, so far as that goes, I could see no 
 objection to it. But if it is intended to carry it further, so 
 that the earnings of all members of the Association will go 
 into one pot and be subdivided, it seems to me that we shall 
 have to object to it. We believe that the true way of 
 handling this business is for the three Companies forming 
 the Western Termini of all these lines, to agree among 
 tit* mselves, as they practically have agreed, as to the 
 division of their revenue between them. Then, leaving it 
 
78 
 
 to the lines east of these three Terminal Lines to determine 
 for themselves how they will divide their gross earnings 
 under the Contract. I am free to confess that I cannot see 
 how there need be any conflict between the two resolutions, 
 provided we still adhere to the idea of two Pools, east and 
 west of Ogden, Albuquerque, Deming and El Paso, pre- 
 cisely as was made under the Agreement of last October, 
 covering Pacific Coast business west of Chicago. It was 
 understood that there were to be two Pools; they were to be 
 inter-dependent. I still adhere to the original proposition of 
 two Pools as being the simplest and the best method of hand- 
 ling the business. I would offer a substitute for Mr. Kim- 
 ball's resolution, one that I hope Mr. Kimball will accept. 
 
 Resolved, That pursuant to the resolution which provides that two Pools 
 shall be made, the Association proceed to discuss the percentage of distribu- 
 maintafnijL ^ on °^ earn i n g s between the lines which compose the Eastern Pool. 
 
 Resolved, That this Association now declare three general divisions of the 
 traffic subject to the Eastern Pool. 
 
 First— The proportion due the connections of the Central Pacific Kailroad. 
 
 Second— The proportion due the connections of the Atlantic & Pacific 
 Kailroad. 
 
 Third — The proportion due the connections of the Southern Pacific 
 Kailroad. 
 
 Resolved, That the subdivision of the award to each set of lines above de- 
 scribed be determined by agreement between themselves at the earliest 
 practicable date. Failing to agree in any or in all cases, on or before January 
 20, 1885, the question shall be referred to arbitration; the Arbitrator to be 
 agreed upon on or before January 21, 1885. 
 
 Substitute 
 for resolu- 
 tion — 
 
 original 
 proposition 
 tor two 
 Pools. 
 
 Discussion 
 thereon. 
 
 Mr. Kimball— I do not like, Mr. Chairman, the proposi- 
 tion to make two separate and independent Pools. I be- 
 lieve the business of the Trans-Continental Association will 
 be better conducted, and the revenues better preserved, by 
 one strong organization. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I do not know why that objection is neces- 
 sary, by the statement that it is the intention that these 
 Pools are only separate in the sense that there are different 
 sets of divisions, or may be different sets of divisions 
 covering the distribution under it. They will both be 
 
79 
 
 subject to the Trans-Continental Association, both be sub- 
 ject to the rulings of the Commissioner, or of an Arbitrator, 
 in case we have none. The accounting will be done by the 
 same Commissioner's office; and I do not know why it is 
 not going to strengthen instead of weaken the organization. 
 If we have these two sets of Pools, or these two Pools, it 
 seems to me that the Western Pool will be a very simple 
 matter, and can be very easily maintained, and will be very 
 rigidly maintained. Moreover, I think that it will stiffen the 
 backs of the Eastern connections, and hold them up to a 
 rigid maintenance of rates, a great deal better than to 
 have one Pool. Further, you must not forget what I have fraafi . 11 " 
 told you, that there is already in existence a separate and Rand's', p. 
 distinct Contract as between the Central Pacific and Atlantic 
 & Pacific Companies. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — That is outside of the Trans-Continental 
 Association. These gentlemen know nothing about that 
 Pool; and further it is outside of their interests. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I desire that they shall know it. There is 
 already a Pool between the Atlantic & Pacific and Southern 
 Pacific Companies, and I think there always will have to be. 
 Now, I don't see how we can go into a Pool such as has ex- 
 isted during the last three months, making one settlement 
 of our earnings under the Trans-Continental Pool, and then 
 make another settlement with the Atlantic & Pacific Com- 
 pany; and I think when it comes down to "brass tacks," 
 you will find we won't do it. It is a sort of double action 
 for us, and we don't know where we stand. 
 
 Mr. Ristine— Why can't we do as Mr. Kimball suggests — 
 have one general Pool, and let the other Pool be independent 
 between us ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I have just told you why. We don't pro- 
 pose to have two settlements on the same business. 
 
 Mr. Ristine— I would remind you that the Pool to which 
 you refer takes in some local business. 
 
80 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I do not want to settle under a Pool with the 
 Trans-Continental Association in which the Eastern con- 
 nections of the Central and Southern Pacific Roads are in- 
 volved; and then after that is all cleaned up, and we think 
 we have a certain amount, to find that we have another set- 
 tlement to make with Mr. Ristine. 
 
 Mr. Ristine— You have to do it; you cannot include the 
 local business in that Pool. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— If the accounts of through and local busi- 
 ness are kept entirely separate, as they have been under the 
 old Pool, on December 3 1st we should not know where we 
 stood. If, after making settlement with the Trans-Conti- 
 nental Association, and we think all parties have put in their 
 accounts, and later on find that we have to make settlement 
 with the Atlantic & Pacific, we would not know where we 
 stood; and both these Pools cover in part the same busi- 
 ness, that is to say, the through business is subject to both 
 pools. I think it is a matter that the Association ought to 
 consider. It does not affect their treasury, and I don't see 
 how it can. I believe my resolution has not been seconded. 
 I withdraw it in order to get the vote on Mr. Kimball's 
 resolution. 
 
 The vote stood as follows: — 
 
 Jr°opoSn Aves— A. T. & S. F., A. & P., B. & M., ]). & R. G., D. 
 
 pJoHnd & r! g. w., u. p.— 6. 
 
 subdivision 
 
 p h a e ge 77. See Nays-C. P., G. H. & S. A., S. P., T & P.-4. 
 
 N. P. and O. R. & N. not voting. 
 
 Declared lost. 
 Discussion Mr Stubbs again presented his resolution. 
 
 upon sub- " *■ 
 
 stitute pro- 
 viding for Seconded by Mr. Eccles. 
 
 two Pools— J 
 
 seepage 78 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I simply wish to call attention to the fact 
 that a resolution has been unanimously passed declaring it 
 to be the sense of the Association that two Pools be formed. 
 
81 
 
 That resolution passed unanimously. Of course I under- 
 stand that anybody has the right to change his mind. The 
 proper course would seem to be to call up the resolution, 
 and reconsider it. This resolution is simply an addendum 
 to that resolution. In order to make it consistent, or rather 
 to add to that resolution, the principle set by the Union Pa- 
 cific, namely, that there shall be three general divisions of 
 the traffic as to route. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — 1 would like to ask, Mr. Chairman, as to 
 that resolution. Is the intent of it this: that in dividing the 
 Western Pool 46 per cent, of the Missouri River rates shall 
 be divided, and in the Eastern Pool 40 percent, of the Mis- 
 souri River rate ? These percentages being the smallest ac- 
 cruing, as I believe, to either one of the Lines interested in 
 the two Pools. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I do not know that that is a matter to be 
 agreed upon. 
 
 Mr. Goddabd — In other words, it was admitted yester- 
 day or the day before that the Union Pacific road, in so far 
 as its percentages overlapped that of the Atchison, was a 
 competitor of the Atchison road's connections. The South- 
 ern Pacific road, in so far as its percentage at El Paso was 
 greater than its percentage via Albuquerque or Ogden, was 
 a competitor of the roads composing the proposed Eastern 
 Pool. Is it the intention to entirely wipe out that part of 
 the competition, or is it the intention, under this resolution, 
 to pool the through rates between the Missouri River and 
 San Francisco, as it has been in the past? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — So far as the question relates to the Pool 
 east of these junction points, the question as to whether 40 
 per cent, of the through rate, or 54 per cent, of the through 
 rate, or any other percentage of the through rate, shall be 
 the basis for contribution to the pot or joint purse, is a sub- 
 ject for agreement, or ought to be made a subject for subse- 
 quent agreement, precisely as we have under our former Con- 
 tract agreed that we would make a Pool, determining that 
 
82 
 
 on Passenger rates 95, 90 or some other percentage of the 
 Kansas City rate should form the contribution to the Pool. 
 That the Eastern Lines can determine among themselves, and 
 so far as west of those junction points is concerned, it 
 would be the subject of agreement whether it should be 46 
 or any other percentage. That was my intention. 
 
 The Commissioner — If the revenue put into the Pool is 
 on Kansas City basis I do not see that it makes any differ- 
 ence. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — That is the only point upon which I think 
 the resolution is subject to criticism; and I was sur- 
 prised that it was not raised the other day when the 
 resolution was passed. It should have been raised then, 
 and discussed before you passed the resolution. There 
 is this question as to the lapping over of these lines: 
 I am willing to concede, so far as the Southern Pacific is 
 concerned, that it is to a certain extent a competitor with 
 the Union Pacific, when you come to a question of revenue, 
 and yet I do not know when you come to balance all the 
 considerations that ought to be taken into account, that is a 
 matter of so little importance that the Association need not 
 waste time upon it. I know this much, that when we come 
 to consider the question as to what extent it is a competi- 
 tor, we are in deep water, for this would be the conclusion 
 and result; that it is more of a competitor, a competitor to 
 a greater extent against the Ogden Lines, than it is against 
 the Albuquerque Lines. If you should agree that the 
 Eastern Pool should be made up on the basis of 40 per 
 cent, or 44 per cent, of the Kansas City rate, and that the 
 Western Pool should be on the basis of 46 per cent., the 
 difference is only 10 per cent., and don't amount to any- 
 thing. That is not, however, the smallest percentage. The 
 G. H. & S. A. is the smallest percentage, 39.77. If the 
 Pool is made up on the basis of Kansas City rate, and on 
 division of 46 and 54, then the lines would all share equally 
 in it all the way round. 
 
83 
 
 Mr. Goddard — By Deming, El Paso or any other junc- 
 tion point? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I should hold to this view, if there were a 
 solid agreement between the Central Pacific, the Atlantic 
 & Pacific and Southern Pacific Companies; if there was no 
 competition between them, that is, that this agreement would 
 neutralize the competition, and that there would be no com- 
 petition on the part of either one of them with either of their 
 connections, or with any of the connections of either of them. 
 The first Pool that was made on California business was upon 
 that basis. At that time the Atlantic <fc Pacific was not com- 
 pleted. The Pool was made between the Union Pacific and 
 Atchison first, the Atchison connecting with the Southern 
 Pacific at Deming, and had 49 per cent, of the through rate; 
 the Union Pacific had 54. The Southern and Central Pa- 
 cific roads were not concerned in the Pool at all; and I do 
 not think that the action of the Southern Pacific and Central 
 Pacific had any influence on the maintenance of that Pool. 
 The Texas Pacific was afterwards admitted to it, and still 
 later the G. H. & S. A. They pooled among themselves. 
 So far as I know, the rates were maintained. I do not see 
 why that priuciple may not obtain now and in the future, 
 provided the Atlantic & Pacific, the Central Pacific and 
 Southern Pacific can agree. My advices are, or the infor- 
 mation I have from our General Manager up to this mo- 
 ment, is that we will not go into any agreement which might 
 require us to pay to a connection east of us, no matter 
 whether you have any Pool or not. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — I understand that to be the answer to the 
 point I raised, and that you decline to recognize that there 
 is any competition between the Southern Pacific and Lines 
 in the proposed Eastern Pool, in so far as its percentage 
 overlaps the percentages of any other line. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— I mean to say that we can overcome that. 
 You may say though that being a longer Line, this element 
 should be neutralized by some arrangement; but the fact of 
 its being under one management — under one control — the 
 
84 
 
 interest between the Central and Southern Pacific Lines be- 
 ing one and the same, is sufficient to give their several con- 
 nections all the protection and a great deal better protec- 
 tion than any Pool. We think we are doing all that should 
 be required of us, so far as the Central and Southern Pa- 
 cific are concerned, if we take care of the Atlantic & 
 Pacific. 
 
 upon a. & Mr. Ristine — I must confess that I cannot see the neces- 
 
 p Q p 
 
 pool." sity of having two Pools upon this Trans-Continental busi- 
 
 ness. I think, however, we should arrange to cover our ar- 
 rangement independent of the Trans-Continental Association. 
 
 Mr. Towne— How, Mr. Bistine? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Separate the Atlantic & Pacific from joint 
 ownership with the Atchison and St. Louis & San Francisco, 
 and you would soon change your ideas. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — Here is an Association supposed to cover 
 certain business — business west of the 97th meridian for 
 the Pacific Coast. Why should we divide it into parts ? 
 There are too many Pools to deal with, any way. The At- 
 lantic & Pacific is perfectly willing to join with the Central 
 & Southern Pacific in a Pool, but in this case it should be, 
 as now, independent of the Trans-Continental, as it covers 
 independent business. I do not know of any argument that 
 has been advanced to show why it should be taken into the 
 Trans-Continental Pool at all. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Mr. Ristine don't believe there is any good 
 sense in a multiplicity of Pools so far as the Trans-Conti- 
 nental is concerned. Now, I do not propose to multiply the 
 number of Pools which any individual member of this Asso- 
 ciation is concerned in. You make two Pools under the 
 same general supervision, but the Central Pacific would only 
 be a party to one Pool, the Atlantic & Pacific would only be 
 a party to one Pool, and the Southern Pacific would only be 
 a party to one Pool; so you gentlemen would only be parties 
 to one Pool — there would be no multiplication. As I have 
 
85 
 
 told you, there is an agreement between the Atlantic & Pa- 
 cific and Southern Pacific — a Pool very likely to be contin- 
 ued in principle — and that it stands to-day like this: that if 
 we pool upon the basis of this resolution of Mr. Kimball's, 
 for one Pool to cover the entire territory from the Missouri 
 River to San Francisco, the Central Pacific would be involved 
 in two Pools on Trans-Continental business; the Atlantic & 
 Pacific would be involved in two Pools on the very same 
 business. In other words, take the Pool that ended Decem- 
 ber 31: One settlement has to be made under the Tucker 
 Award, and through the Trans-Continental Association, on 
 business that passes the ninety-seventh meridian; and an- 
 other settlement has to be made as between the Central 
 Pacific, the Atlantic & Pacific and the Southern Pacific on 
 the very same business, under their Atlantic & Pacific Agree- 
 ment. Mr. Ristine don't want a multiplicity of Pools — don't 
 believe it is necessary to have two Pools on the same busi- 
 ness, which is just what I am trying to vote for. 
 
 Mr. Eistine —That was as to the division of the Trans- 
 continental Association. In the case of this side Agreement 
 the argument does not apply, because it covers business 
 which is not the subject of the Trans-Continental agree- 
 ment. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I do not know of any use of wasting time in 
 explaining it ; but the fact that a Pool between the C. P., 
 S. P. and A. & P. would cover more business than that of 
 the Trans-Continental Association is the very reason why 
 they should be separate and distinct — be independent. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — Let me ask one question. In case two uponper- 
 pools were formed, is the "Sunset" willing to pool 54' per be pooled, 
 cent, of the Missouri River San Francisco rate in the East- 
 ern Pool, provided all other lines do the same? 
 
 Mr. &TUBB8— While it is likely it would be willing to do 
 that, I am not competent to answer the question definitely. 
 I think the "Sunset" would be willing to put in all the 
 "Atchison" is. I believe that is the true principle. 
 
86 
 
 Mr. Goddakd — That question of course would have to 
 be disposed of before we could agree upon what we are 
 going to pool. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I think the objection to any line pooling 
 more than it earned is always coming from the other lines. 
 I have not discussed the matter with our people at all. I 
 think Mr. Kistine will remember that I once suggested that 
 all pool on the highest rate. I do not know though, with 
 this solid compact west of Ogden, Albuquerque and El 
 Paso, that that would be necessary at all. 
 
 Mr. Kistine— The Southern Pacific and G. H. & S. A. are 
 practically under one management, and one set of percent- 
 ages would tend to simplify your business. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I do not care to discuss it just now. 
 
 Mr. Kistine — Whereas, if you make two Pools, two sets 
 of percentages, two sets of accounts, etc., you would further 
 complicate the situation. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — You ought to know about as well as anybody 
 in this institution that two sets of accounts are kept, one for 
 the G. H. & S. A. and one for the Southern Pacific. They 
 divide their rates in the same manner as the Central and 
 Union Pacific roads do. 
 
 Vote upon 
 Mr. Stubbs' 
 substitute 
 providing 
 for two 
 Pools- 
 see page 78. 
 
 Mr. Goddard called for the question. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — If Mr. Goddard wants to propose a Pool on 
 the highest percentage, Mr. Towne says the "Sunset "will 
 do it and stay by you. If you want to put in $1.00, we 
 will put in $1.00. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — I simply desired the information. I have 
 not made any proposition for you to answer yet. 
 
 The vote stood: 
 
 Ayes— C. P., G. H. & S. A., S. P., T. & P.— 4. 
 
 Nays— A. T. &S. F., A. & P., B. & M., D. & K. G., D. & 
 K. G. W., U. P.— 6. 
 
 N. P. 
 
 & O. K. & N. not voting. 
 
87 
 Declared lost. 
 By Mr. Ristine, seconded by Mr. Miller : 
 
 Resolved, That the question of percentages for each Through Line doing Resolution 
 
 business between California and points east of the 97th meridian of longitude percentages 
 
 be now agreed upon, said percentages to apply from January 1, 1885, and J? a PP'y to 
 
 continue until March 31, 1885, and thereafter until thirty days notice shall lines. 
 be given by one or more parties. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs offered an amendment as follows — 
 
 Strike out the words "each through line," and insert, "the lines east of uJ£2J5j meilt 
 Ogden, Albuquerque, Deming and El Paso respectively." 
 
 The vote upon the amendment stood : 
 
 Vote upon 
 Ayes— C. P., G. H. & S. A., S. P., T. & P.— 4. amendment 
 
 Nays-A. T. & S. F., A. P., B. & M., D. & R. G., D. & 
 R. G. W., U. P.— 6. 
 
 N. P. and O. R. & N. not voting. 
 
 Lost. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I would raise a point of order, that the res- Mr - stubbs 
 
 i i m i raises point 
 
 olution as it stands is out of order. A resolution was of order 
 
 iiiii- • ii-i against dis- 
 
 unammously adopted by this meeting, which declared that cushion of 
 we should form two Pools. The resolution introduced by 
 Mr. Ristine is entirely inconsistent with that accepted res- 
 olution. 
 
 The Commissioner— The point of order is sustained. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— We cannot proceed unless we do so on the 
 basis of that resolution. 
 
 Mr. Goddard— I do not consider that a fair position. 
 The resolution to which you refer merely proposed a plan 
 of procedure. We have voted to-day not to pool .on that 
 proposed plan. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— See if the Association has so declared itself. 
 
 Mr. Goddard— If we are to be picked up upon technical 
 
 resolution. 
 
 See page 12. 
 
88 
 
 grounds, and in order to treat the matter parliamentarily, 
 I move — 
 
 Motion to 
 reconsider 
 resolution 
 
 on Order of That the Kesolution upon the Order of Procedure be reconsidered. 
 
 Procedure — x 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Hooper. 
 
 Mr. Hannafoed — Before voting upon that proposition, 
 I would like to ask if the expunging of that resolution from 
 the record would affect that portion of it already disposed of, 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I make the point, that if that resolution is 
 reconsidered it carries with it what we have already agreed 
 to in its connection. The Central Pacific voted for the 
 O. E. & N. and N. P. subsidy upon the basis of that method 
 of procedure. 
 
 Mr. Goddaed— I think that is a case of " brow-beating," 
 hardly warrantable in this meeting. 
 
 Disposition Upon the motion to reconsider the vote stood: 
 
 of motion to 1 
 
 Ayes-A. T. & S. F., A. & p., B. & M., D. & E. G., D. 
 &B. G. W.-5. 
 
 Navs— C. P., G. H. & S. A., N. P., S. P., T. & P., U. 
 P.— 6. 
 
 O. E. & N. not present. 
 
 Declared lost. 
 
 Question Mr. Goddaed — Mr. Chairman, do you decide Mr. Eistine's 
 
 ot order resolution as out of order? 
 
 The Commissioner— The point of order was declared sus- 
 tained. 
 
 Mr. Goddaed — Does that mean that we cannot do any 
 further business ? 
 
 tbTsifua / Mr. Stubbs— It means this : This resolution was offered 
 tion ' and voted down. Mr. Kimball offered a resolution embody- 
 
 ing the same proposition. It was voted down. I then 
 offered a substitute for Mr, Kimball's resolution of yester- 
 
89 
 
 day, which embodied a portion of his proposition, but mak- 
 ing it consistent with the motion already adopted, still pre- 
 serving the idea of the two Pools, that was voted down. That 
 clearly brings the issue to the point as to whether we are 
 going to have one Pool or two Pools. We are not prepared 
 to vote for a proposition for one Pool. Mr. Ristine's reso- 
 lution was meant by a circuitous route to accomplish the 
 same end as Mr. Kimball's; and if that sort of a resolution 
 is to be introduced and to be voted upon, then we are justi- 
 fied in applying parliamentary tactics to its disposition. 
 There is no use of fightiug that issue. We want two Pools. 
 You do not want two Pools. Now then, we can settle that 
 without introducing resolutions, and perhaps some of us can 
 drop to a "still hunt " by attention. That is the only reason 
 why I resorted to the point of order. 
 
 Mr. Goddard— There seems to be a difference of opinion. 
 We don't seem to get together. Is there any business which 
 zvecan work upon ? I w r ant to get home. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — We should be very sorry to see you depart 
 in a bad humor. * 
 
 Mr. Goddabd— Never was known to be in anything else 
 than a good humor. Cannot afford to lose my temper over 
 a little thing like a Pool. 
 
 Mr. STUBBS — We think we have given you good reasons 
 for the establishing of two Pools, reasons which have not 
 been answered by any reasons to the contrary. You have 
 refused to debate the subject. 
 
 Mr. Goddard— I raised the only point of objection that 
 there is to it, and it is a serious point — whether we are go- 
 ing to pool or not between the Missouri River and San Fran- 
 cisco on 10, 20, or any other percentage. I am willing to 
 discuss the situation, provided we pool the whole earnings, 
 and if the whole business is taken care of and taken care of 
 properly. 
 
 Mi. Stubbs— Yesterday, when the resolution was pro- 
 
90 
 
 posed, } t ou did not raise the point, did not discuss it, did 
 not debate it, nor to-day did you do it, nor did any one else. 
 You simply asked me a question as to the intent of it. I 
 gave you the intentions of it at length, and I also gave it 
 yesterday. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — I did not so understand it. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— I did fully. After that explanation you did 
 not go a step farther. You did not give any reason — you 
 did not offer any reason why you voted against it. You 
 asked another question — would the G. H. & S. A. be willing 
 to pool on the basis of 54 per cent.? I told you that I was 
 not able to answer that, but thought perhaps the " Sunset" 
 would be willing to put into the Pool as much as any one 
 else. The General Manager signified his willingness, and I 
 said we would do it, which met your objection. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — It did not meet the question. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — It took care of the question as to what we 
 were willing to pool upon. I said we would pool as much 
 as the " Atchison " Avould. You said you did not intend to 
 commit yourself. 
 
 Mr. Goddard— The whole pith and substance of the mat- 
 ter you well know; there is no use of attempting to avoid it. 
 It is whether the Southern Pacific Line is willing to join in 
 a pool, recognizing that it does compete with the Atlantic & 
 Pacific and the Central Pacific Lines to the extent of the 
 differences in their percentages, and if the result should 
 happen to be that the Southern Pacific Line, in so far as 
 that percentage is concerned, should be obliged to pay to 
 the Union Pacific, or pay to the Atchison, whether they are 
 ready to join on that basis, recognizing their own competi- 
 tion. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — You are getting down to it . The answer to 
 that is this: The G. H. & S. A. will put in its full propor- 
 tion of 54 per cent, if the rest do it. That takes care of that 
 business. 
 
91 
 
 Mr. Goddard — No, sir; it does not. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — It pools the full 100 per cent, of the Kan- 
 sas City rate. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — If you put in 54 per cent, and the Atchi- 
 son puts in what it earns, it meets the question ex- 
 actly. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— If the G. H. & S. A. puts in 54 per cent.? 
 
 Mr. Goddard — Yes, sir. If they put in 54 per cent., and 
 you ask the Atchison to put in 54 per cent., it does not meet 
 the objection. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I want to know how you can, with any cool- 
 ness, sit there and argue that the Atchison Company, hav- 
 ing but 44 per cent, of the Line, does not compete with the 
 Union Pacific to the extent of 10 per cent., provided the 
 Atlantic <fc Pacific competes, provided the Southern Pacific 
 competes, and if the G. H. & S. A., which would have 40 
 per cent., should put in 54 per cent., in order to lengthen 
 its line to that of the Union Pacific, why the Atchison 
 should not put in 54 per cent, in order to lengthen its line 
 to an equality with that of the Union Pacific. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — That puts the question in another form, 
 which is not my original proposition. In all our agree- 
 ments, since we have have had a Pool, it has been a recog- 
 nized principle that the through rates were the only basis 
 upon which a correct Pool could be made. It seems to me 
 that that is the only basis. The contributions by Lines 
 must be, of course, in proportion to the division of through 
 rates by these Lines. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I do not think you are correct, because, as 
 I illustrated in my answer to your question, we do not pool 
 the total rates in some cases. We don't do it on Passenger 
 business. We don't do it on some Freight rates. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — The Passenger Agents say that that is the 
 average amount received. The intention was to pool just 
 the Missouri River rate. 
 
92 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — We say that the one management is a fair 
 offset. We can neutralize this competition. There is prac- 
 tically no competition between the Union Pacific and the 
 Southern Pacific. 
 
 Mr. Goddard— The G. H. & S. A. is the same thing. 
 Put in the whole line to New Orleans. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — If the Atchison road puts in 54 per cent., 
 how much would you have the Atlantic & Pacific put in? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — If we say 46 per cent, is the rate, that is 
 the amount you would put in. I don't know how you would 
 come out under that proposition. You would not put in 
 more than you agreed. 
 
 Informal discussion. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — I understand, Mr. Towne, your idea is 
 this: If I understand it correctly, the objection raised by 
 Mr. Stubbs to that arbitration was, that it was unfair to the 
 Central and Southern Pacific, in that it did not give them a 
 fair division of the through rate as compared with what was 
 given to their Eastern connections. Now, as I have said to 
 Mr. Stubbs two or three times, there is something in that. I do 
 not think that any one here is disposed, or has any disposition 
 whatever, to attempt to claim or hold on to anything that 
 does not belong to them. As I understand your position, it 
 is simply this : That whenever the awards are made, pro- 
 vided we can sit down here to-day or to-morrow aud agree 
 upon what part of the business shall go by each and all of 
 the through routes, that your. Companies, the Central and 
 Southern Pacific Companies, would be willing to accept 
 their regular division of the rates, whatever that would give 
 them by the different routes, as we divide our rates to-day. 
 In other words, supposing one-third of the business shall 
 go to the Union and Central Pacific Line. The Central Pa- 
 cific wants 46 per cent. You are entitled to it, unquestion- 
 ably. Of any percentage allotted to the D. & R. G. and 
 B. & M. Line, the Central Pacific should have 46 per 
 
93 
 
 cent, of that. Of whatever amount is awarded to the At- 
 lantic «fc Pacific Line, you should have your division, 18 per 
 cent., or whatever it is. Of whatever is awarded to the 
 Deming Line, you should have 51 per cent. Whatever is 
 awarded to the " Sunset" Line, you should have your proper 
 divisional percentage of that. The objection which I see 
 to this proposed plan is the cne I have raised, and it seems 
 to me to be a very important question, that is in the separa- 
 tion of the Pools one of your lines overlaps the lines in the 
 Eastern Pool. This has to be recognized to a certain extent, 
 to the extent of the difference in percentages between these 
 lines. For instance, if the " Sunset Line," we will say, is 
 awarded a given percentage, and the Southern Pacific takes 
 60 per cent, of that percentage, incase they should run over, 
 carry a large amount over their percentage, and the Union 
 Pacific should run short, and the "Atchison" run short, 
 whereas the Southern Pacific would be short of 18 per cent. 
 on account of the Atlantic & Pacific's Through Line short- 
 age, it would be over 60 per cent, of the amount carried 
 over by the "Sunset" and the Southern Pacific. That 
 would cause the question that would arise as to the compe- 
 tition of Southern Pacific south of Mojave, and north of Mo- 
 jave, and it might cause the Southern Pacific to pay the 
 "Atchisou" or to pay to the Union Pacific a small amount of 
 money. It seems to me that this competition must be re- 
 cognized in order to have a Pool. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — You say you understand that that is our po- 
 sition, yet I have repeatedly said that we do not want to 
 pool twice on the same business as between the C. P., A. & 
 P. and S. P. Companies, and that is the only point against 
 it. Further, you say my objection in Chicago to Mr. Tuck- 
 er's award was only 
 
 Mr. Goddard— Mainly. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I had two or three statements with me there, 
 one showing that the award, according to the business that 
 had been up to that date tabulated in the Commissioner's 
 
94 
 
 office, was unjust to our lines. You forced me to illustrate 
 
 it so as to convince you gentlemen that you were getting 
 
 more than you were entitled to. On my statement that we 
 
 did not get our pro rata proportion of what our connections 
 
 got, I simply put that before you because it was a showing 
 
 which none of you could gaiusay. Now, we will take your 
 
 Sous D intro- very proposition. It might be that the Union Pacific would 
 
 show unfair carry largely in excess of its tonnage; the Central Pacific 
 
 Sing 10 * likewise would carry in excess of its tonnage. Now, it might 
 
 and debate transpire, it is possible, as shown by the Commissioner's 
 
 report here, that the Central Pacific might have to pay to 
 
 the B. & M. I have a showing here to illustrate it. 
 
 You take the Commissioner's statement for October. Now, 
 this is reducing all lines east of our junction points to 54 
 per cent, and putting sufficient into the Eastern Line of the 
 Southern Pacific's earnings to bring it up to 54 per cent. On 
 the basis of the earnings it shows that 16.8 per cent, of the 
 Southern Pacific's line, or its gross earnings might be, ac- 
 cording to your proposition or to the proposition of Mr. 
 Stebbins — I believe he originated it — regarded as competi- 
 tive. He regarded the competition, though not of your 
 line, nor of the Texas & Pacific, nor of the B. & M., 
 but of the U. P., and of the B. & M. and D. & R. G. line 
 jointly. Of course it would be the D. & R. G., and not 
 B. & M. Now then, we take the Award. The "over" of 
 the Southern Pacific amounts to $47,661.95. 16.8 per cent, 
 of that sum we can fairly attribute, according to this argu- 
 ment of Mr. Stebbins and yourself, as nothing more than 
 legitimate competition with the lines east of them. That 
 amounts to $8,007.20. Now, the Atlantic & Pacific was 
 short $10,64.7.43; Central Pacific, $9,4S2.62. We cannot 
 deny but the Southern Pacific is a slight competitor of the 
 Atlantic & Pacific and of the Central Pacific, and that about 
 $20,000 should be paid by the Southern Pacific to them, 
 which leaves a balance of $5,000.00 to be paid to lines east 
 of Albuquerque and Ogden by the Southern Pacific. The 
 D. & R. G. was short $15,409.91; the Union Pacific was 
 over $7,579.60. Apply the Union Pacific over to the D. 
 
95 
 
 & R. G. short, because there can be no question about the 
 competition between these lines, which leaves balance of D. 
 <fe R. G. short $7,830.31. The G. H. & S. A. was over 
 811,046.03, the Texas & Pacific, $14,004.35; total, $25,050.38. 
 The Atchison was short $21,648.06. Apply the Texas & 
 Pacific and G. H. & S. A. over to the Atchison short, they 
 being the nearest lines, and certainly are the competitors 
 of the "Atchison," if of anybody, which leaves net over 
 on the part of the G. H. & S. A. and Texas Pacific of 
 $3,402.32. We now dispose of the Union Pacific and B. & M. 
 and balance of D. & R. G. shortage. The B. & M. short- 
 age is $23,103.yl. The balance of over by Texas & Pacific 
 and G. H. & S. A. being $3,402.32— we certainly ought to 
 admit because there is competition — would leave in "short" 
 B. & M. $19,701.59. We add balance of short D. & R. G. 
 $7,830.31. We take the $8,007.21 of the Southern Pacific, 
 which, according to your argument, is only such as is sub- 
 ject to competition in the East, and apply that to the D. & 
 R. G., and it leaves $176.90 over. Apply that then to the 
 B. & M. balance of shortage, and it reduces it to $19,524.69, 
 which exactly balances with the over of the Southern Pacific 
 after paying the Central Pacific and the Atlantic and Pacific. 
 Now, I say, by your own method of calculation, that the 
 Tucker Award makes the Southern Pacific pay $19,524.69 
 to lines with which it has no competition whatever, and so 
 far as I have been able to carry the matter in my mind, I 
 do not believe that you can make any award by Routes — 
 through Lines — that will not in some cases work one and 
 the same result. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — The reverse would also be true, Mr. 
 Stubbs. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— Possibly. 
 
 Mr. Goddard It would be a very likely thing if any of 
 the other lines should happen to be over, that the Atchison 
 might l)e obliged to pay to the Southern Pacific. The 
 Union Pacific might pay to the Atlantic & Pacific. 
 
 M r. S itbbs— I do not think it is probable. The Southern 
 
96 
 
 Pacific, the Central Pacific and the Union Pacific are old 
 lines, and I think if anybody is going to be plucked by the 
 award it would be either of these lines. There is more 
 uncertainty about the amount you are entitled to, about the 
 amount the B. & M. and D. & K. G. are entitled to, than 
 others, because you are untried comparatively. We have 
 experimented three months to the tune of over $100,000. 
 That experiment is sufficient to us, ought to be sufficient to 
 you gentlemen, if you desire what is fair. I said to you 
 that you had touched upon the only point that made my res- 
 olution subject to criticism, and that was the question of 
 "hipping" lines. I thought of that, and expected that the 
 point would be raised, wondered it was not raised when the 
 resolution was presented; but I think that can be taken care 
 of easily enough. The only difference it would make 
 would be, if the lines east of' these junction points 
 agree to pool upon the least percentage, and the lines west 
 the same thing, that would leave 14 per cent, of the earn- 
 ings not in the Pool, and that 14 per cent, would not cover 
 the cost of doing the business, and I do not believe it 
 would be any incentive to cut in the matter. It works a 
 real hardship to us, and is likely to affect us in our treas- 
 ury, to complicate our accounts, and put us to a great deal 
 of trouble. It does not affect your revenue one cent. The 
 only reason you object to it is that by reason of the full 
 100 per cent, not being put in between Missouri River and 
 San Francisco, that that margin, say 14 per cent., and it 
 cannot be more, will be used to cut on. Now, any man 
 that makes that basis of objection. I should assume, goes 
 upon the theory of judging every one else by himself. I 
 want you to bear in mind that it does not affect your revenue 
 one particle, but that it does affect our revenue. 
 
 Mr. Goddakd — It does affect our revenues very se- 
 riously. It affects them to the extent of that amount of 
 money. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — You keep it if you earn it. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — We don't earn it. 
 
97 
 
 Mr. Stubbs- -You are not entitled to anything you don't 
 earn. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — All right. Let's go in on a maintenance of Proposition 
 
 of A T & 
 
 rates. That appears to be the only solution of this problem. s - F - f° r 
 
 11 ^ *■ agreement 
 
 on mainte* 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — All right: lam with you. nance of 
 
 ° J rates only, 
 
 Mr. EistesE — How far East would you go — New England ? thereon. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Yes, sir. I will go just as far as you dare. 
 Can you agree to maintain rates from there ? Can you con- 
 trol rates from there ? I am already in an agreement to 
 maintain rates from New York; to maintain rates on a level 
 with the rates all rail, and we have done so. I have always 
 been on that platform. The *mly reason why rates have not 
 been maintained is, I think, or I choose to think, it impos- 
 sible of maintaining rates east of the Missouri River. 
 
 Mr. Eistine — You said the other day that you did not 
 care whether you adopted the 7f cent rate on Oil. You 
 wanted the same rate as ruling from Pittsburgh. Would 
 that be maintaining rates with the Trunk Lines ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— I am not under any agreement that I cannot 
 abrogate by a notice. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — What Mr. Stubbs means as to agree- 
 ment is when they all agree with him . 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— That's right. When their rales agree with 
 mine, they ivill be maintained. You can take the reverse. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — Reverse would be good. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— We have not agreed since the first day of 
 January, 1883. 
 
 Mr. Ristixe— I thought I heard yon rem irk that during 
 the month of December the " Sunset" took 75 per cent, of 
 the business. Now, if the other lines did not agree to 
 maintain rates in the month of December, and you could 
 get 75 per cent, upon a maintenance of rates, you are a bet- 
 ter man than I think you are. 
 
98 
 
 Commis- 
 sioner's re- 
 marks. 
 
 Pacific 
 Mail rates 
 for 1884 ex- 
 tended to 
 January 3 >. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — You are entitled to your opinion, and it is 
 good for what it is worth, and that's all. In the first place, 
 you misonstrued what you heard. You did not hear me 
 say anything of the kind. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — I certainly did hear it from either yourself 
 or Mr. Towne. 
 
 Mr. STUBBS^It is a very little failing you have of miscon- 
 struing; that is all. 
 
 Informal discussion. 
 
 Mr. Towne — What are we doing? Are we arriving at 
 anything or not? 
 
 Mr. Ristine — Mr. Towne, I think we had better adjourn 
 and see if we cannot figure upon some proposition that will 
 be acceptable. 
 
 On motion, it was agreed to adjourn until 10 a. m. to- 
 morrow. 
 
 Saturday, January 11th — Morning Session. 
 
 Meeting convened at 11 a. m. 
 
 All members represented. 
 
 The Commissioner — The second section of Mr. Stubbs' 
 resolution I suppose is still the order of business for this 
 morning. I trust somebody will have a resolution that will 
 strike a happy medium and go through. Mr. Goddard, we 
 are ready for your resolution. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — I am out of resolutions this morning, Mr. 
 Chairman. 
 
 Mr. Ristine— I move 
 
 That the rates accorded to contractors by Pacific Mail for last year be ex- 
 tended to cover steamer sailing January 30th, and that the Acting Commis- 
 sioner issue the necessary advices. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Stubbs. 
 Adopted. 
 
99 
 
 Mr. Eustis— There are some of us here who have had a 
 vague hope of getting away to-day. We don't like to lose 
 that hope so early in the morning. 
 
 Mr. Kimball— Very vague. 
 
 The Commissioner — I would like to ask if any of you have 
 found anything to offer ? This sitting round here don't pay. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I will invite you all down to take a drink. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — In view of my proposed early departure, I 
 have made my last will and testament. I beg to offer it for 
 the consideration of the meeting: 
 
 Resolved, That a Pool be formed by the roads west of the Missouri River, 
 doing California business with points east of the 97th meridian. Said Pool 
 to consist of the following roads : 
 
 Union Pacific, Burlington & Mo. River, Texas & Pacific, Denver & Rio 
 Grande, Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, Galveston, Harrisburg & San Anto- 
 nio, and so much of the A. & P., and S. P. as is necessary to cause the con- 
 tributions to said Pool to equal 54 per cent, of the earnings between Missouri 
 River and San Francisco. 
 
 Each of the Lines (except the A. & P. and S. P.) shall contribute to the 
 Pool their entire earnings on the traffic passing the 97th meridian, except as 
 may be modified by subsequent agreement on the east and California on the 
 west. The A. & P. and So. Pacific shall contribute to said Pool so much of 
 their earnings as is necessary to make the contributions to said Pool equal to 
 54 per cent, of the Missouri River San Fraucisco earnings. 
 
 In case of failure to agree upon percentages to be awarded each road, the 
 question to be referred to arbitration on or before February 10th, 1885; the 
 Arbtirator to be chosen on or before January 20th, 1885. The decision of the 
 Arbitrator to be final and binding upon the parties hereto for three months, 
 from January 1st, 18i5, and thereafter subject to 33 days' notice by either 
 l>;irty hereto. 
 
 Proposition 
 for Pool be- 
 tween lines 
 east of Cen- 
 tal Pacific 
 system, etc. 
 Resolution. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Miller. 
 Informal discussion. 
 
 The Commissioner — Mr. Kimball, have you anything to 
 say upon Mr. Goddard's resolution ? 
 
 Mr. Kimball — I would offer the following amendment: 
 
 Proposition 
 Pool be- 
 tween i \- 
 Besolved, That a second pool be formed, consisting of the Lines west of the treme West- 
 territory described, which shall include 4G per cent, of the through earnings amendment. 
 
100 
 
 between Pacific Coast common points and points east of the 97th meridian. 
 And in case of failure to agree upon the percentages to be awarded each Line, 
 the question to be referred to arbitration on or before February 10th, 1885. 
 The Arbitrator to be chosen on or before January 20th, 1885. 
 
 Resolved, That the accounts of the two Pools shall be kept by one and the 
 same Commissioner, and that the contributions to the subsidy or sub- 
 sidies be assessed upon the several members of the two Pools in proportion 
 to their earnings. 
 
 Resolved, That the affairs of the two Pools shall be administered by the 
 officers or managers of the Trans-Continental Association, and that the dis- 
 tribution of the revenue accruing and the apportionment and assessment of 
 the expenses, as well as the collection and payment of subsidies, shall be made 
 by the Commissioner of this Association. 
 
 Resolved, That all of the Bites, Kules and Eegulations of the Trans-Conti- 
 nental Association shall app!y to and be binding upon the Eastern and the 
 Western pools, which are to be considered as divisional and subordinate Pools 
 of this Association. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Hoopek. 
 
 Mr. Kimball — I think, Mr. Commissioner, as this is a 
 very important matter, it would in my judgment be a good 
 idea to allow the members plenty of time to consider all the 
 provisions of the resolution, the original and the amend- 
 ment. I would therefore move 
 
 That we now adjourn to 1:30 this afternoon, and that all the members be 
 requested to meet here promptly at that hour, 
 
 As a portion of the Association have accepted an invitation 
 to go to Monterey this afternoon, and will be compelled to 
 leave here at 3 p.m. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Towne. 
 
 Adopted. 
 
 Saturday, January 11th — Afternoon Session. 
 
 The Commissioner — The question is upon Mr. Kimball's 
 amendment to Mr. Goddard's resolution. 
 
 ment to the Mr. Ristine — I desire to offer an amendment to the 
 
 provision 
 
 for Pool be- amendment. 
 
 tween ex- ■ 
 
 treme West- Resolved, That nothing herein shall be construed as affecting or modifying 
 accepted. the Agreements existing between the Atlantic & Pacific and Southern Pacific 
 Companies. 
 
Pools de- 
 ferred. 
 
 101 
 
 Accepted, and included in the amendment by the authors 
 thereof. 
 
 The Commissioner — Are there any remarks upon the 
 amendment? 
 
 Mr. Goddard — Question. 
 
 During the progress of the roll-call, Mr. Towne said: vote upon 
 There are some points in that resolution which we would and amend- 
 like to consider before voting upon it. viaingfor 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I am aware that during the progress of 
 calling the roll no other motion is in order, but we do not 
 wish to vote upon this proposition at present, and think 
 that on Monday morning we can have a proposition that 
 perhaps would be acceptable to all, and one that we can vote 
 for, and if by unanimous consent I can make a motion to 
 adjourn, I would move 
 
 That we adjourn until Monday morning, 11 o'clock. 
 
 And in the meantime we will have a resolution drawn, 
 which is destined to meet the points provided for in the 
 motions of Messrs. Goddard and Kimball, and one that our 
 people think we can vote for at that time. We might pre- 
 pare it this afternoon, but Mr. Ristine desires to look the 
 matter over, and Mr. Towne wants further time to consider 
 the matter. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — You need not wait on my account. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — If we put this resolution in now you are not 
 ready; you want time to consider. 
 
 Mr. Ristine— No, I am not ready for that resolution. 
 
 Mr. Kimball — Without objection the motion to adjourn 
 would be in order. If we unanimously consent we can 
 adjourn, and the vote as far as called can be expunged from 
 the Secretary's record, so that when we meet again the 
 original question will stand, and hold as the first business 
 for disposition at the assembling of the meeting. 
 
102 
 
 Mr. Eccles seconded the motion to adjourn. 
 Adopted. 
 
 Monday, January \§th. — Morning Session. 
 
 Commis- 
 sioner's re- 
 
 The Commissioner— The question upon Mr. Kimball's 
 marks. amendment and Mr. Goddard's resolution is before the 
 meeting. The Secretary will please continue the roll call 
 upon the amendment. 
 
 Kesolution 
 introduced 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — In order to expedite matters, I beg to submit 
 tute'for the a resolution as a substitute for the whole matter. 
 
 entire mat- 
 
 tne meeung Tlie Commissioner— If there is no objection we will take 
 Sereon arks U P Mr - Stubbs' substitute for the amendment of Mr. Kim- 
 ball, and the resolution of Mr. Goddard. Will that be 
 satisfactory to the authors of the motions referred to ? 
 
 Mr. Kimball — It will have to be satisfactory. He has 
 the right to offer a substitute. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs offered the following as a substitute for the 
 entire matter before the convention : 
 
 Resolved, That in the organization of the two Pools heretofore provided 
 for by resolution of this Association, 
 
 First — They shall be known as the Eastern and Western Pool respectively . 
 
 The Eastern Pool shall be comprised of the following lines: 
 
 No. 1 — Union Pacific Kailroad and its Colorado connections. 
 
 No. 2— D. & R. G. Western and D. & R. G. Railway and the Eastern con- 
 nections of the latter. 
 
 No. 3 — A. & P. R. R. and Eastern connections. 
 
 No. 4— Southern Pacific R. R. and connections at Deming. 
 
 No. 5 — Southern Pacific R. R. and connections at El Paso. 
 
 The above named lines comprising the Eastern Pool shall each contribute 
 to the joint purse 54 per cent, of the through rate agreed upon by the T. C. 
 A. as poolable. 
 
 The individual roads forming each line shall contribute to that line's share 
 of said poolable rate as hereinafter provided. 
 
 Those forming Lines Nos. 1 and 2 shall contribute their entire share of the 
 said poolable through rate. 
 
103 
 
 Those forming Line No. 3 as follows : 
 
 The connections of the A. & P. shall contribute their entire share of the 
 said pnolable through rate; and the A. & P. shall contribute the remainder, 
 or sufficient to make the total contribution equal to 54 per cent, of the 
 through poolable rate. 
 
 Those forming Line No. 4 as follows: 
 
 The connections of the S. P. at Deming shall contribute their entire share 
 of the said poolable through rate, and the S. P. shall contribute the remain- 
 der, or sufficient to make the total contribution of the line equal to 54 per 
 cent, of the through poolable rate. 
 
 Those forming Line No. 5 as follows: 
 
 The connections of the S . P. at El Paso shall each contribute their entire 
 proportion of the through rate agreed upon as poolable, and the S. P. shall 
 contribute the remainder, or sufficient to make the total contribution of the 
 line equal to 54 per cent, of the through poolable rate. 
 
 Withdrawals from the joint purse by the Koads respectively forming each, 
 line shall be in proportion to the payments made by each to the lines' con- 
 tribution to the joint purse. 
 
 The Western Pool shall be comprised of the following lines i 
 
 No. 1— Central Pacific E. R. 
 
 No. 2— A. & P. R. R. and its Western connections. 
 
 No. 3— Southern Pacific R. R. 
 
 The contributions of each of these lines to the joint pur se shall be equal 
 to 46 per cent, of the T. C. A.'s through rate agreed uppn as poolable. 
 
 The respective contributions of the roads forming Line No. 2 shall be as 
 follows: 
 
 The A. & P. shall contribute its entire share of the through rate agreed 
 upon as poolable, less the amount it shall have contributed to the Eastern 
 Pool. 
 
 The S. P. shall contribute its entire share of the through rate agreed upon 
 as poolable . 
 
 The withdrawals by the roads forming Line No. 2 shall be in proportion to 
 each road's payments to the line's contribution to the joint purse. 
 
 In case of failure to agree upon percentages to be awarded to each road 
 comprising tho Eastern Pool, the question to be referred to arbitration on or 
 before February 20th, 1885. The Arbitrator to be chosen on or before Janu- 
 ary 20th, 18S5; the decision and award of the Arbitrator to be binding upon 
 the parties hereto from January 1st, 1885, and thereafter subject to 90 days' 
 notice by either party. 
 
 Resolved, That the affairs of said Eastern and Western Pools shall be ad- 
 inini>k-red, und their respective accounts kept by one and the same Com- 
 missioner; that the expenses of the Trans-Continental Association shall be 
 borne jointly by the several members of the said Pools in proportion to their 
 earnings from the traffic subject to the T.C.A., or as may hereafter be specific- 
 
104 
 
 ally provided for; and that the Rates, Rules an 3 Regulations of the T. C. A. 
 shall be applied to, and be binding equally upon the said Eastern and 
 Western Pools and the respective members thereof. 
 
 Resolved, That the subsidy paid the Pacific Mail S. S. Co., and all kindred 
 disbursements ordered by the T. C. A. account of competition common to all 
 the members of said Association shall be assessed to, and paid jointly by, 
 the members of said Eastern and Western Pools in proportion to their respec- 
 tive earnings from the traffic involved, oras may hereafter be specifically pro- 
 vided for; likewise in same manner receipts from same or kindred accounts 
 shall be credited to the individual members of said pools in proportion to 
 their earnings. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — 'The resolution seems perfectly clear, but 
 it occurred to me that possibly the question might arise 
 whether these expenses, when divided upon the earnings— 
 whether the word "earnings" would be construed to mean 
 after the settlement of the Pool or business carried. The 
 intent, of course, 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — The intention is, of course, after the Pool 
 Settlement is made, and if it is not clear it ought to be made 
 clear. I have used your language, " or as may hereafter be 
 specifically provided for." We will take care of that when 
 we come to draft the Agreement. This is only a resolution. 
 I said "traffic involved." For example, the .Northern 
 Pacific will settle on San Francisco, you understand; for 
 that reason I did not say " gross earnings." 
 
 Mr. Kistine — 'I would like to have inserted : 
 
 It is understood that nothing herein shall interfere with, modify or change 
 the existing Agreement between the Southern Pacific and Atlantic & Pacific 
 Companies. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — There is nothing there that does. All I can 
 say is this, that it is a Trans-Continental matter. It cannot 
 modify that. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — That is all right. 
 
 The resolution was submitted to vote, resulting in its 
 unanimous adoption. 
 
 [Note. — The votes of the Texas & Pacific representative 
 were understood to be subject to the approval of Messrs- 
 
105 
 
 Hoxie, Olds and McCullough. Two amendments offered by 
 Messrs. Goddard and Kimball, the first providing for refer- 
 ence of the matter of percentages to arbitration, and the 
 second including "Colorado connections" in the line of the 
 Union Pacific, were accepted and included in the resolution. 
 See page 102.] 
 
 The Commissioner— Mr. Stubbs' resolution having been SoneTpro- 
 unanimously accepted and adopted, I would ask if it is not ganizatlon. 
 considered advisable to proceed with the reorganization ? 
 
 Mr. Goddard — I move — Motion to 
 
 proceed 
 That the next business be the election of an Arbitrator to decide these with the 
 nnpstinns election of 
 
 questions. Arbitrator. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Eccles. 
 
 Subsequently withdrawn. 
 
 The Commissioner— I would like to ask the members a f^JJJgJ? 
 question. The Freight Statements are in such shape that {^ade^on 
 settlement can be had thereon at any time. The question Sat°d°state- 
 is now whether we shall hold the Freight Statements until ment - 
 the Passenger business is reported, or until we can make 
 a Consolidated Statement showing both Passenger and 
 Freight. 
 
 It was the sense of the meeting that settlement be made 
 upon a consolidated statement of both Passenger and Freight 
 earnings. 
 
 Mr. Towne offered the following: 
 
 Whereas, At a meeting of General Managers of the Trans-Continental As- Proposition 
 
 sociation, held at Chicago on September 17, 1884,, it was agreed that the ques- J he ig J°™ rd 
 
 tion of percentages should be submitted for arbitration to Mr. James F. for October, 
 m , * November 
 
 Tucker; and and De cem- 
 
 Whereas, the findings of said Arbitrator were evidently based upon an im- ***> *" d de - 
 perfect knowledge of the facts and a misunderstanding of the relations 
 iiig between the parties interested, as shown by the Award, requiring 
 certain roads to pay over to their connections, which is manifestly unjust 
 and without precedent in the history of pooling arrangements. 
 
 fiesolved, That the Award be ignored in so far that for the months of Octo- 
 ber, November and December the roads carrying in excess of the awarded 
 percentage be allowed for such excess one half of the average rate per ton or 
 per passenger before making settlement with the roads "short" under the 
 Award. 
 
106 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — It is not generally contemplated that in any 
 pooling agreements large balances shall be interchanged, and 
 I think that I have heard from nearly every representative here 
 since they arrived that there was a very great mistake made 
 in sending this matter to an Arbitrator, even to so capable 
 and just a man as Mr. Tucker, and forbidding the parties 
 interested making any statements or arguments in order to aid 
 his judgment. We believe that is the rock he split upon, and 
 that he himself would not now, if he could review the case 
 in the light of subsequent experience, justify the Award. 
 Now it requires large balances to be exchanged. In our 
 own case it requires the Southern Pacific to an extent 
 which I guess all will admit is not fair — is not just — to pay 
 to Lines east of them out of its earnings. We think that it 
 ought to be remedied, notwithstanding the fact that our 
 General Manager stated when he gave his notice, in re- 
 sponse to an enquiry from the Commissioner, that he pro- 
 posed to stand by the Award. That is to say, if he could 
 get no relief. He did not propose to say flatly: We shall 
 not stand by the Agreement, because we were not justly 
 treated. He desires me to say now that he intends to stand 
 by the Award, and in case you consider that you are justly, 
 fairly and honestly entitled to it, why we shall put our fin- 
 gers in our mouths and see what solace we can g6t from 
 sucking them. But this proposition involves simply a 
 larger allowance than our Agreement provides for the excess 
 which may be carried by any road. It gives practically 
 about the cost of handling to the Texas & Pacific, the 
 Union Pacific and the Southern Pacific for the excess 
 which they carried, and is submitted to you as an equitable 
 proposition, one that you can all afford to vote for, and ought 
 to vote for, in order to have an easy conscience. 
 
 Mr. Towne — This matter as it now stands is manifestly 
 wrong without any question. There is no representative 
 here but who will say that the results have proved it to be 
 wrong in fact and figures. Now, we are not here to plead the 
 " baby act," by any manner of means. If there is any one 
 
107 
 
 of you that desires to vote in the negative, because be thinks 
 it is proper to vote that way, because lie thinks it reason- 
 able to vote that way, then we have nothing further to say. 
 In a word, if there are any of you who feel that you are 
 going to get more under this decision, than you have a right 
 to, but because Mr. Tucker has so awarded you are entitled 
 to it; then let it rest that way. I would like to hear an ex- 
 pression upon it. I make this proposition with the con- 
 dition that in case of anything of the kind occurring in the 
 future, and it is found in any subsequent award, that the 
 result i^ as unjust to you, as it has gone against us in this, 
 you will find us disposed to do what is fair and right in that 
 as well as in all other things. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — In view of the circumstances, would it not Proposition 
 
 to re-submit 
 
 be the proper thing to re-submit the question to Mr. Tucker the question 
 as a matter of fairness to him ? I believe the only ground tion - 
 taken, is that his Award is unfair solely from his lack of 
 knowledge of the situation. I do not think there is any one 
 here that questions his integrity; in fact it has so been 
 stated. I, for one, am willing that the question of per- 
 centages from October 1st to December 31st be re-submitted 
 to Mr. Tucker, each line, if they see fit, presenting its own 
 statement of the case to him. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — We will accept that proposition. 
 
 Mr. Miller — Under the resolution that declared Mr. objection 
 Tucker as the Arbitrator of the questions under the Trans- anddebato'' 
 Continental Pool, the questions arising under the Pool of 
 the Iowa Lines were also included. The Burlington System 
 is interested in several Pools. They are left in those Pools, 
 and to a far greater extent than we are a gainer in this, 
 an> I if anything is to be resubmitted, the whole business 
 ought to be. 
 
 Mr —That is an entirely different and separate 
 
 proposition. 
 
 M -We would have to take the whole together. 
 
 We could not separate it. 
 
 thereou. 
 
108 
 
 Mr. Stubbs —Is it fair that the Central Pacific should pay 
 the Burlington for business done possibly in Nebraska? 
 The understanding was that Mr. Tucker was to arbitrate, 
 but there were two distinct questions. 
 
 Mr. Miller — That is very true, but the Awards were 
 made, and he was authorized to make such Awards under 
 the one resolution, and we cannot separate them. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — They are not independent in that respect. 
 If he did leave you short in the Eastern Pools you could 
 have applied for relief under your Nebraska Agreement, if 
 that is a separate agreement, or you could have applied for 
 relief under your Colorado Agreement without prejudicing 
 your interest uuder this Contract. This resolution, it seems 
 to me, imposes the mildest form of relief. We are credited 
 with our proportion of $4.80 per ton on the excess. We ask 
 to be allowed one-half of the average rate. It only applies 
 to the number of tons we carried in excess of the Award. 
 
 Mr. Miller — It is a very liberal proposition if we take 
 them ultogether. So far as I am concerned I do not feel 
 that I can separate this Pool from others that were arbitra- 
 ted under the same resolution. 
 
 Mr. Smith — Would it not be well to settle up October 
 business amicably between ourselves, if possible, and fix 
 the Award to apply on the business for November and De- 
 cember on the percentages earned in October? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— If November turns out contrary to this show- 
 ing for October, we are willing that this resolution shall 
 apply over the whole term of the Pool— October, Novem- 
 ber and December — so that others may have the same relief 
 that we ask for. I do not think there is much probability 
 of it, though. 
 
 Mr. Eccles — Question. 
 The vote stood as follows : 
 
 Vote upon 
 
 r^oL tTon e '" Ayes-C. P., G. H. & S. A., S. P., U. P.-4. 
 
 Nays— A. T. & S. F., A. & P.. B. & M., D. & R. G., D. 
 &R. G. W., T.&P.-6. 
 
109 
 
 N. P. and 0. R. & N. not voting. 
 Declared lost. 
 Mr. Goddyrd — I would like to request that when we meet Motion for 
 
 . continuous 
 
 this afternoon we continue in session until we complete the session. 
 reorganization, with but short recesses. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Hooper. 
 
 Adopted. 
 
 Mr. Goddard— I move — 
 
 That the first business to come before this meeting npon our reassembling Motion to 
 be the election of a Commisssoner, and that the balloting be continued until commis- 
 that question is disposed of. sioner. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Muir. 
 
 Adopted. 
 
 Recess until 2 p. m. 
 
 Monday, January 19^— Afternoon Session. 
 
 The Commissioner — In accordance with the motion adopt- 
 ed prior to recess, the first business will be the ballot for a 
 Commissioner. 
 
 Mr. Eccles offered the following : 
 
 Resolved, That this meeting now convene in Executive Session, and that Motion to 
 all parties not members of the Association be invited to withdraw during the convene in 
 time the Commissioner is being balloted for. sSSon, V ex- 
 
 cluding 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Goddard. te r l s. mem ~ 
 
 Adopted. 
 
 executive session. 
 Meeting called to order afternoon of January 19th. 
 S. K. Hooper in the Chair. W. F. White, Secretary. 
 The Convention proceeded to ballot for a Commissioner. oSSnJj 1 
 
 Bioner. 
 
 On the eightieth ballot Mr. Hanuaford received 11 votes, 
 
110 
 
 and it was then moved that a unanimous vote be cast in his 
 favor as Commissioner. The unanimous vote of the Asso- 
 ciation was accordingly cast for Mr. Hannaford on the 
 eighty-first ballot. 
 
 Mr. Hannaford stated that he could not accept the posi- 
 tion, and balloting was resumed. The eighty-fourth ballot 
 was reached without a choice being made, when on motion 
 a list of candidates was submitted, and those receiving 
 unanimous vote were placed in nomination for the Commis- 
 sionership. The nominees thus chosen were : 
 
 W. S. Mellen, A. 0. Bird, 0. W. Smith, A. S. Hughes 
 and J. F. Tucker. 
 
 Four ballots were then taken, making eighty-eight. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs then withdrew Mr. Tucker's name, and an- 
 other ballot was cast, on which Mr. Mellen received three 
 votes and Mr. Smith nine. 
 
 A record of all of the ballots and list of names submitted 
 as nominees is hereto attached and marked "Exhibit A." 
 
 The meeting then adjourned until ten o'clock the follow- 
 ing morning. 
 
 Tuesday, January 20th. 
 
 Meeting called to order at 10 a. m. 
 
 S. K. Hooper in the Chair. W. F. White, Secretary. 
 
 The following resolution offered by Mr. Kistine, seconded 
 by Mr. Miller : 
 
 " As it seems impossible to elect a permanent Commissioner, be it 
 Resolved, Tbat Mr. L. G. Cannon be continued as Acting Commissioner 
 until the next regular or special meeting of this Association." 
 
 Declared lost. 
 
 Resolution offered by Mr. Stubbs, seconded by Mr. Smith : 
 
 Resolved, That the Chair appoint a Committee of Three to suggest a name 
 for Commissioner of the Association. 
 
 Carried. 
 
Ill 
 
 The Chair appointed Messrs. Kimball, Stubbs and Ris- 
 tine. 
 
 Mr. Kimball, as Chairman of the Committee, reported that 
 they had unanimously agreed to offer the name of C. W. 
 Smith to the Association as Commissioner for the ensuing 
 year, and suggested the election of an Executive Committee. 
 
 The report was received and the Committee discharged. 
 
 Resolution offered by Mr. Stubbs as follows : 
 
 Resolved, First— That C. W. Smith be elected Commissioner of this Asso- Election of 
 ' Mr. C. w. 
 
 ciation for one year. Smith for 
 
 Second— That a committee of six be elected, who shall have power among skmer! 8 
 other things to appoint a Commissioner in the event of Mr. Smith's declina- 
 tion. 
 
 Carried. 
 
 The following resolution was then offered by Mr. Towne 
 and seconded by Mr. Smith : 
 
 Resolved, That Messrs. George Olds, T. L. Kimball, J. F. Goddard, J. C. Appoint- 
 Stubbs, J. M. Hannaford and A. S. Hughes constitute the Executive Com- Executive" 
 mittee, for the period of the Association. Committee. 
 
 Carried. 
 
 The Executive Committee were then instructed to confer 
 with Mr. C. W. Smith, with a view to his accepting the po- 
 sition of Commissioner. 
 
 On motion the Executive Session then adjourned, and the 
 regular meeting of the Association was resumed at 11.30 a.m. 
 
 Note— The following telegram was forwarded to Mr, C. 
 W. Smith at Richmond, Va. 
 
 You have been unanimously tendered the Commissionership of the Trans - 
 Continental Association, and salary of twelve (12) thousand dollars per an- 
 num named. Will you accept ? Immediate answer solicited. 
 Signed, 
 
 Thos. L. Kimball, 
 J. M. Hannafobd, 
 J. C. Stubbs, 
 J.F.Goddabd. 
 
 Of Executive Committee. 
 
112 
 
 Tuesday January 20t7i — Morning Session. 
 Meeting convened at 12 m. 
 All members represented. 
 The Acting Commissioner in the chair. 
 Mr. Hooper submitted the following: 
 
 Board of Resolved, That we now proceed to the selection of a Board of Arbitration, 
 
 Arbitration ^ w h om the question of percentages as provided for in the resolution form- 
 Pool— ing the Trans-Continental Association Pools, shall be submitted. That said 
 
 See page 102 g oar ^ f Arbitration shall consist of one General Freight Agent, one Gene- 
 ral Passenger Agent, and a third person who shall act as Eeferee and Chair- 
 man of said Board. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Goddard. 
 
 Adopted. 
 
 Mr. Goddard— I move — 
 
 That a Committee of Three be appointed to select names for the Board of 
 Arbitrators. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Stubbs. 
 
 Carried. 
 
 The Commissioner — I would name Messrs. Goddard, 
 Stubbs and Kimball. 
 
 Mr. Eistine — I move — 
 
 That the Committee now retire. 
 
 Adopted. 
 
 Mr. Miller — I move — 
 
 That this meeting adjourn until 2 p. m., or until an agreement is reached 
 by the Committee. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Eccles. 
 Carried. 
 
113 
 
 Tuesday, January 20t7i— Afternoon Session. 
 Meeting convened at 2 p. m. 
 All members represented. 
 By Mr. Goddard : 
 
 Your Committee beg leave to report that they have unanimously agreed J^portof 
 upon the following parties as Arbitrators to decide the matter of percentages C n Board of 
 in the Eastern Pool: Arbitration. 
 
 J. F. Tucker, 
 
 D. S. Gray, 
 
 W. B. Shattuc. 
 
 The first mentioned to act as Chairman. 
 
 Your Committee would further recommend, in case of failure to act of 
 either of the parties specified, that the power to fill vacancies be placed in 
 the hands of the Executive Committee. 
 
 Mr. Miller — I move — 
 
 That the report of the Committee be accepted and the Committee dis- 
 charged. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Hannaford. 
 
 Adopted. 
 
 Mr. Miller — I move — 
 
 That the parties named by the Committee to act as Arbitrators be ac- Report of 
 cepted by the Association, with conditions specified by the Chairman of adopted 166 
 the Committee. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Eccles. 
 
 Carried unanimously. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — I understand, Mr. Chairman, that any Arguments 
 
 and all arguments which are to be presented to the Board Sed t5 u 
 
 of Arbitrators must be presented on or before February 10th. Arbitration. 
 Is that the record of the meeting? 
 
 The Secretary — Yes. 
 
 The Commissioner — Is it understood, Mr. Goddard, that 
 any member has the right to give them any information they 
 may desire ? 
 
114 
 
 Communi- 
 cation ex. 
 W. T. Cole- 
 man & Co., 
 and others, 
 asking spe- 
 cial rates; 
 debate 
 thereon. 
 
 Mr. Goddard. — I presume it is understood that each road 
 can make its own argument. That is the general under- 
 standing, and holds unless forbidden. 
 
 Agreed. 
 
 The Commissioner introduced letter from Messrs. W. T. 
 Coleman & Co., requesting a personal conference with the 
 Association. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that the 
 proper way to dispose of all these matters is to appoint a 
 committee to take up the question of such special rates as 
 may be thought necessary and advisable by the Association, 
 in connection with the Pacific Coast and other Associations 
 east of the Kiver. 
 
 Mr. Miller — Would it not be a good idea to let Mr. 
 Johnson of that firm come here and see what he has to say ? 
 
 Mr. Goddard — I have no objection, if we had time, but we 
 have so many important matters for discussion. 
 
 The Commissioner — I have about forty letters, more or less, 
 of a similar character — all bearing on special rates, and 
 some very important ones. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — Can these letters be answered until the 
 relations of our Eastern connections are fully determined ? 
 
 The Commissioner — A number of the letters rest in that 
 shape. You have agreed that specials are necessary, and 
 that if your connections will not join, you would have to 
 foear them yourselves. 
 
 Mr. Goddard thought it would leave the matter in very 
 bad shape if shippers should become aware of it, as claims 
 would follow; he thought that the matters referring to Mis- 
 souri Eiver traffic could be settled very quickly. 
 
 The Commissioner — I suppose matters of that character 
 will be brought up at our Freight Meeting. 
 
115 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — These questions will result in claims. Is it 
 not necessary to decide what action we will take for the 
 purpose of securing co-operation on the part of the lines 
 east of the Trans-Continental Association. It was only in- 
 formal talk the other day, favoring the appointment of a 
 committee to wait upon them. Let me add in this connec- 
 tion, I understand that the merchants here, especially the 
 larger shippers, do not regard the matter as settled, and are 
 expecting some action on the part of this Association which 
 will definitely dispose of the question so far as their minds 
 are concerned, as to whether they will stand on the Tariff, or 
 hope for some modification which will enable them to con- 
 tinue their tonnage to the rail lines. 
 
 Mr. Miller asked if it was thought that many of the mer- 
 chants would resort to the Cape Horn Route. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— Yes. 
 
 Mr. Miller — Why? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Simply because they can ship so much 
 cheaper that way. 
 
 Mr. Miller — Take the Chicago merchants for example. 
 They do not patronize Canal and Lake. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — What we have to be guided by is our expe- 
 rience. We had to make very low rates. We had to im- 
 pose upon them a restraint in the shape of an ironclad obli- 
 gation on their part not to use the Cape Horn Route, and 
 even under that, some of them did not always use us fairly. 
 
 Mr. Miller— I am willing to be guided by you, gentle- 
 men, having the experience in this business. My opinion 
 is. however, that few will resort to the Cape Horn Route. 
 They cannot afford to do it in this generation. 
 
 The Commissioner— I guess they are getting 20 per cent, 
 off all round now, from what I can hear. It is common 
 talk on the street. 
 
116 
 
 Committee 
 to interview 
 Eastern 
 Lines, and if 
 possible se- 
 cure their 
 co-opera- 
 tion. 
 
 Motion 
 upon in- 
 structions 
 to Commit- 
 tee, and ar- 
 gument 
 thereon. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Well, but that is not to coutinue. At least 
 I hope not. 
 
 By Mr. Ristine. 
 
 B*solved, That a Committee of Three be appointed to confer with the 
 Pacific Coast Association, the Middle and Western States Association and 
 the Trunk Lines, with authority to negotiate with said Associations for a lim- 
 ited number of special contracts on a percentage basis, and to arrange with 
 said Associations on a mutual and joint plan for the making of rates, and 
 proper conduct of the business, in which all are interested. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Miller. 
 
 Adopted unanimously. 
 
 Subsequently withdrawn. (See page 123.) 
 
 The Commissioner — I shall appoint Messrs. Hannaford, 
 Gray and Ristine. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — The Central Pacific will not be represented 
 on the Committee. You all heard Mr. Towne say so a day 
 or two ago. We have expended our labors. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — Will you stand on anything the Committee 
 may do ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Yes, if they do right. I would suggest that 
 Mr. Kimball be substituted for Mr. Gray. 
 
 The Commissioner— It is so ordered. 
 Mr. Stubbs — Mr. Chairman, I move 
 
 That the Committee be instructed that no engagements as to special con- 
 tracts or discounts from the regular tariff on a percentage basis be made, 
 unless made to apply equally from all points, or unless an agreement can be 
 had with the Pacific Coast Association, the Middle and "Western States Asso- 
 ciation, the Trunk Lines, and the New England Lines jointly; that we do 
 not leave it in the power of the Committee to say if they can make an en- 
 gagement with the Pacific Coast Association while the lines east fail to 
 concur, that the lines west of Chicago will make these discounts on their 
 own responsibility. 
 
 Mr. Miller — I second the motion. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — To what do you refer ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I refer to this : You cannot well make a dis- 
 
117 
 
 count on Chicago business originating there, or on Pitts- 
 burgh business originating there, and still leave the Eastern 
 business out of the question. I think the business of any 
 particular class can hardly, scarcely be considered as con- 
 fined to one territory. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — It seems to me that there is little use in 
 appointing a committee with their hands tied in that way. 
 If we are not able to take care of the whole of the business, 
 that is no good reason why we should not take care of part if 
 that is necessary. In other words, failing with the Trunk 
 Lines, I see no reason why we should not take care of Pitts- 
 burgh business or traffic from Buffalo, Cleveland, Chicago, 
 St. Louis or any other point, provided it is done at remuner- 
 ative rates. There may be no necessity for it. If not, I am 
 perfectly willing to leave it in the hands of the Committee 
 to decide. Their interests are sufficiently large to warrant 
 their acting cautiously in the matter. 
 
 Mr. Miller — Don't you think we could take the business 
 from the West at the Tariff? 
 
 Mr. Goddard — I don't know; that is for the Committee 
 to decide. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — My reasons for offering that motion are 
 these : In the first place, there is scarcely any class of busi- 
 ness that is limited to a particular territory. There may be 
 some, but you will find that Chicago competes with Pitts- 
 burgh, and that Pittsburgh competes with New York, and even 
 witli New England on some classes of freight. That is true on 
 Iron Manufactures, true upon Agricultural Implements. If 
 we can take care of the business from the Atlantic Coast 
 tnd Atlantic Seaboard on our Open Tariff, we can certainly 
 take care of the business west of there. We have in 
 adopting the new Tariff, scaled the rates very much in favor 
 of Western points as compared with any previous tariffs we 
 have had, so the probabilities are that if the rates are fair 
 or reasonable, and rather likely to take the business from 
 the Atlantic Coast, they are more likely to answer the pur- 
 
118 
 
 pose from the West. There is not the same necessity for 
 conferring with the Western Lines upon Western business 
 as there is with the Trunk Lines aud all the lines on the 
 Atlantic Seaboard business. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — To use an illustration, in our conference 
 with the Middle and Western States Association, as to the 
 rate on Nails, they were willing to make a rate of $1, but 
 they said that if we put in a scaling basis of 10 per cent, we 
 could make a 90-cent rate net. Now, under your motion 
 we have to keep it at $1 in carloads. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — If you will show me how you cannot do that 
 under my resolution, I will confess to it. I simply take up 
 what the Lines themselves said, that if there were to be 
 reductions or discounts, they should apply equally upon all 
 roads. 
 
 Mr. Ristine— That we have not got. Take the regular 
 rates. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— If you have $1.25 from New York and $1.15 
 from Pittsburgh, you can make a discount of 10 per cent., 
 and it will apply not only from New York, but it will apply 
 to Pittsburgh and it will apply to Chicago. If you have a 
 90-cent rate or a $1 rate in carloads from Pittsburgh, the 
 discount can be made to apply to that just as well. The 
 resolution does not comprehend making the rates the same 
 from all points, but it does comprehend and does intend to 
 make the rates relatively the same; that is, that the rela- 
 tions established by the tariff shall be maintained. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — Suppose the Middle and Western States 
 and Pacific Coast Associations consent to a shave of the 
 Iron rates 10 per cent, from Pittsburgh. As I understand 
 your resolution, we cannot do that unless we can scale 10 per 
 cent, from New York. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— Unless the Trunk Lines and New England 
 Lines also agree to the Contract Plan. 
 
 Mr. Miller — It would not be necessary. 
 
119 
 
 Mr. Stcbbs— If the Committee goes there and represents 
 to the Eastern Associations the necessities of the case, first 
 the Pacific Coast Association, then the Middle and Western 
 States Association, and if they can induce them to meet 
 their views, they could join these associations in a request 
 upon the Atlantic Seaboard Lines; then it would very likely 
 be accomplished, more likely than upon any other course. 
 I think none will deny that if there is any virtue in the Con- 
 tract Plan, that if there is any necessity whatever for any dis- 
 counts from the Open Tariff, that necessity applies to the 
 Atlantic Coast more than to any other portion of our line, 
 because if is nearer to Cape Horn competiton that requires 
 the reduction. Now, then, the Atlantic seaboard man has 
 an advantage of the Western man, therefore, the New York 
 manufacturer can ship via Cape Horn much cheaper than 
 the Pittsburgh man can, because he has something to add 
 for the rail service to New York. 
 
 Mr. Eistine — We might see the necessity of making a 75 
 cent rate on Iron from Pittsburgh. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — We have been restricted to $1 by the Trunk 
 Lines. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — That is all true. You start out with the 
 proposition that the present rates from the seaboard with- 
 out Special Contracts will result in throwing all the business 
 to the Clippers, it will result in assorting and sending heavy 
 goods that way. That is a matter of truth. I do not 
 dispute that proposition at all, but admit it as the fact; 
 then the question is, do we want the Pittsburgh, the Buffalo, 
 the Chicago, the Cincinnati business to go by Clipper? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— It don't follow that it will do it. There is 
 less likelihood of Pittsburgh, Chicago, Buffalo and Cincin- 
 nati business going via (Jape Horn than there is of Pough- 
 keepsie, Auburn, Jersey City or New England freight going 
 that way. 
 
 Mr. Goddard— Is not that a proper subject to leave in 
 the hands of the Committee ? 
 
120 
 Mr. Stubbs— I do not think so. 
 
 Mr. Hannaford— Would the Committee not be more 
 likely to get concessions from the Trunk Lines sooner if 
 they secured such concessions from the interior lines first? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— I do not know as to that. It might be that 
 there had been a failure to secure what you desired. It might 
 be that by pursuing a policy of discrimination against the At- 
 lantic Seaboard you could eventually prevail upon the Trunk 
 Lines to do this thing, but I think a policy of lower rates 
 under a Contract Plan from the West would be more apt to 
 incense the Trunk Lines and influence them to withdraw 
 from any through rates. I really think that the labor of 
 this Committee should be applied as upon the Trunk Lines — 
 go right down to New York, and in the event of failure 
 there, if we are going to be cut off on the Atlantic Seaboard, 
 then I should say that we had better try it from all points 
 for a while on the Open Tariff. That is my judgment in the 
 matter; and moreover you will find — I know you will find 
 this, just as though I had the merchants right here to swear 
 to it — that you cannot make a contract with a large firm in 
 this city binding them to ship exclusively by rail, and that, 
 I understand, is to be the condition of this discount, un- 
 less you can give him a specialty — some discount on his 
 Atlantic Seaboard business where he wants it most. You 
 would have to cover all their business. I have been too 
 long in this business not to understand just what you have 
 to do. 
 
 Mr. Hannaford — We are conducting this business now 
 upon an entirely different plan to that which has ruled in 
 the past. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I do not understand it so. As 1 understand 
 this proposition, it is to undertake to make the same sort of 
 contract that we formerly made, only limiting it to a few of 
 the larger houses. 
 
 Mr. Kistine — I think all will concede that it is desirous to 
 
121 
 
 give shippers more Cape Horn privileges than they had in 
 the past, certainly on articles of Iron, etc. 
 
 Mr. Miller— I think we would all be better off if we did. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — This evidently resolves itself into a ques- 
 tion of confidence. If there is no confidence in this Com- 
 mittee, why not recall your action ? If we have no confi- 
 dence in our Committee, we had better dismiss them and 
 appoint a new set. 
 
 Mr. Eistixe — Mr. Kimball, what are your views on this 
 subject? 
 
 Mr. Kimball — My impression is that we will have to make 
 our fight first with the Trunk Lines and the New England 
 Lines, and, as you know, I am in favor of a Special Contract 
 system — always have been. I should work to re-establish 
 that Contract Plan from the seaboard and to get a goodly 
 number of Special Contracts — take the larger houses and 
 hold them to the all-rail lines. If we succeed in that, the 
 balance of the commission of that Committee is a very sim- 
 ple one, easily accomplished. 
 
 Mr. Goddard— Failing in that, what would you* do with 
 the other business ? 
 
 Mr. Kimball— I would scale the West-bound rates more 
 than your present tariff scales them and make them Open 
 rates. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — That meets the proposition; that meets 
 my ideas. 
 
 Mr. Ristine— That is all right. 
 
 Mr. Miller — It seems to me the best thing to do is to 
 make rates as low as we can afford to carry the stuff, and 
 we shall carry it by rail. I do not think there will be any 
 Cape Horn business of any volume on low rates that 
 way. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— The only way to test this thing is by experi- 
 
122 
 
 iment; it would be pretty costly, but I think we had better 
 try it. 
 
 Mr. Miller — Mr. Stubbs, my opinion is formed from my 
 own personal experience. I was in business in St. Louis 
 some years ago. I could ship Nails from Wheeling to St. 
 Louis at 6 cents a keg. I shipped by rail at 20 cents a keg. 
 It was money in my pocket, as I figured it, to carry a light 
 stock of Nails in St. Louis at 20 cents, as against a heavy 
 stock at 6 cents, and I believe that the merchants of San 
 Francisco will look at this transaction' in a similar manner, 
 at the same time holding out the threat of Cape Horn. I 
 believe an experiment will reveal their preference and use 
 of the Trunk Lines in the handling of their business. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— As I have said before, we are launching on 
 an experiment. If you do not want to reach it by a Contract 
 Plan, we can try the Open Tariff. If you are going to try 
 Contract Plan, we want to try it upon the business that 
 needs it most— the Atlantic Coast business. I go further, 
 so far as our interests are concerned. If we cannot get 
 Specials from the Atlantic seaboard, we don't want them 
 at all. 
 
 Mr. Kistine — Now, take the matter of application to the 
 Pacific Coast Association for rates; we cannot obtain 
 prompt answers. We should arrange with them so as to get 
 prompt replies. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Is it your object to place the naming of 
 West-bound rates entirely in their hands, without confer- 
 ence here ? 
 
 Mr. Kistine — No. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Is it] the object to leave the matter in the 
 hands of our Commissioner ? 
 
 Mr. Ristine — Yes, so far as we can, or to whoever it is 
 decided — as it is now. We should arrange matters so that 
 we can work more promptly and harmoniously with them. 
 
123 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— I think that it is all very well for this com- 
 mittee to arrange for a prompt reply to any communication 
 which our Association may address to either or all of these 
 Associations, but to go and make any special dicker as to 
 the right to make rates, I do not believe we want to do that. 
 Mr. Ristine, so far as your resolution relates to Special Con- 
 tracts, would you have any objection to wording it, instead 
 of "authority to negotiate," "that this committee be ap- 
 pointed to wait upon these lines for the purpose of securing 
 from them authority," etc.? 
 
 Mr. Ristine — Change it any way you like. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I can write a substitute for yours, but do 
 not want to have a row about it. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Eis- 
 tine's resolution, as I understand it, w r as unanimously car- 
 ried . 
 
 The Commissioner — Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I did not consider the matter carefully or Motion to 
 read it carefully when I voted for it, and I now wish to have j^j^jjjf 
 the vote upon that resolution reconsidered for the purpose JSbmiVtee 
 of offering a substitute. I don't know but that the members j£th]E f 2t. 
 would accept this as a substitute, but I would like to read SSd sSSSi- 
 that which I propose to offer before I make the motion for JjjJ ethere - 
 reconsideration, in order that you may know why the idea 
 is to make the duties of the Committee specific and confine 
 it to certain lines, not to give them powers to range all over 
 the field of the tariff, making rules and regulations. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs read the following : 
 
 Resolved, That a Committee of Three be appointed to confer with the Pacific 
 Coast Association, the Middle & Western States Association and the Now York 
 Trunk and New England Lines for the purpose of obtaining from them au- 
 thority to make a limited number of special freight contracts, upon such 
 fetRM and conditions as the business demands; that these contracts be made 
 upon the basis of a discount from the Tariff rates, and said discount shall apply 
 from all point-. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Now, for the purpose of offering that resolu- 
 tion, I move a reconsideration of Mr. Eistine's resolution. 
 
124 
 
 As to San 
 Francisco 
 arrange- 
 ments ap- 
 plying to 
 Portland. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Kimball. 
 
 Carried. 
 
 Mr. Hannaford — I would like to ask, in that connection, 
 if it is understood that a limited number of contracts as ac- 
 corded to San Francisco will also be accorded to Portland? 
 
 The Commissioner— I should so construe it. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — My idea would be that whatever is decided 
 with respect to San Francisco, so far as West-bound is con- 
 cerned, would apply equally to Portland. I suppose it to 
 be the intention to provide as we have in the past that San 
 F 1 rancisco and Portland shall be the same, aud I think that 
 would cover it . 
 
 Mr. Muir — There would have to be a provision about that 
 between the Oregon Short Line, the Northern Pacific and 
 the O. B. & N. I want that put in, as there is a provision 
 under our Contract in connection with that matter. 
 
 Mr. Hannaford — So far as the principle with the Trans- 
 Continental Association is concerned, I simply want to 
 know if it is understood that any similar interests at Port- 
 land can be protected in the same manner as they are in San 
 Francisco. 
 
 Mr. Muir — As I understand it, we can always duplicate at 
 Portland what is done in San Francisco. 
 
 Mr. Shelby — If we make 200 Contracts in San Fran- 
 cisco, you should have the right to make that number in 
 Portland. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — You should have the right to make all that 
 are necessary. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — If that is understood, you should have 
 that understanding with the Trunk Lines in your negotia- 
 tions. 
 
 Mr. Shelby— If you agree that 200 Contracts would be 
 
125 
 
 the maximum to be made, and it was understood that your 
 reference was to San Francisco, Portland would be left 
 out. 
 
 Mr. Mum — We could arrange so as to make a comparative 
 number in Portland. 
 
 Mr. Shelby — If they should agree to make 200 and no 
 more, where would Portland be? We should have some 
 understanding. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I suppose that if we should make contracts 
 here with the Woodenware men, the Hardware men, the 
 Grocery men, similar interests at Portland should have 
 precisely the same rates and on the same conditions. 
 
 Mr. Hannaford — You say "on the same conditions." 
 Now, a tonnage limitation might be put on at San Francisco 
 that we could not duplicate up there. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I don't think that ought to be. I don't think 
 it would be done. There should be a broad understanding 
 that you can protect your trade. 
 
 Mr. Hannaford— That is all we ask. 
 
 Mr. Ristine— You say " from all points." Do you mean Debate 
 from local points too ? ?e P somtion 
 
 re Commit- 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — No. I mean from common points of course, w5h°East- er 
 from which the Tariff rates apply. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — It would be well to state that; it might be 
 susceptible of misinterpretation. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — If it is not plain, you can make it plain, or 
 I will make it plain. Now, where the Tariff may name 
 rates from any particular point, the discount might be 
 made to apply from that point; but if you want to know 
 whether I mean in case it originates at a local point on one 
 of the Trunk Lines which take an arbitrary, that the discount 
 shall apply on both the local and through rate, I don't 
 mean anything of the kind. I don't think it is susceptible 
 
 or t«» 
 CTNIVERSITY 
 
 iiCALIfo"^, 
 
 Line*. 
 
126 
 
 of that interpretation; it applies only from common points 
 from which our Tariff provides a rate, that is the Through 
 California Tariff. 
 
 Mr. Ristine —There are a lot of interior points that take 
 the local. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— Well, the Tariff has got to provide for the 
 rates from Chattanooga and Southern points. It should be 
 understood that in the event of a discount being made on 
 domestics from New England points the request should be 
 made to cover those parties, big men, who may wish to ship 
 from Augusta, Georgia, for instance, or the cotton mills of 
 the South — that is what I mean by it. 
 
 Mr. Ristine offered the following amendment: 
 
 Erase all after the word "rates," at the end of the resolution. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Goddard. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — Leave that discretionary with the Com- 
 mittee. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— It will be understood by all that when we 
 were in Chicago both the Pacific Coast gentlemen and the 
 Middle and Western States gentlemen provided or stipu- 
 lated, when they consented to a Discount Contract arrange- 
 ment, that whatever Contracts were made should apply 
 "from all points;" that is to say, we were there taking them 
 up in turn, first the Pacific Coast Association, getting their 
 agreement to the Tariff and Contracts, then the Middle and 
 Western States, and then the Trunk Lines. Now, they 
 stipulated that if they agreed to the 10 per cent., whatever 
 was done, whatever contracts were made, such contracts 
 should apply upon all the rates. They demanded just the 
 thing that I now ask here, and we agreed to it. Then we 
 went down to New York, the Trunk Lines refused, and that 
 upset the whole thing. Now, we propose to go East, or to 
 send a committee East, with power to make from one sec- 
 tion of the country a Discount Tariff, regardless of whether 
 they can gee it from the points that we more especially need 
 
tine's 
 Amendment 
 
 Vote upon 
 resolution 
 
 127 
 
 it from than any others, and it ignores some interests rep- 
 resented here. 
 
 A vote being taken resulted in the votes of the C. P., S. ^° r te R 'JP° D 
 P. and G. H. & S. A. being recorded in the negative. 
 
 Upon the resolution, as amended, the vote stood : 
 
 Ayes— A. T. S. F., A. & P., U. P.— 3. U^Tendted. 
 
 Nays— B. & M., C. P., D. & E. G., D. & R. G. W., G. 
 H. & S. A., N. P., O. R. & N., 8. P., T. & P.— 9. 
 
 Declared lost. (See page 146). 
 
 By Mr. Goddard, seconded by Mr. Miller : 
 
 Resolved, That the Acting Commissioner of this Association be instructed Acting Com- 
 
 to furnish to each of the Board of Arbitrators copies of the Resolutions f^irulsb^ 
 
 passed covering business to be pooled, agreement to arbitrate, and time speci- ^oard of 
 
 fied for the closing of arguments, and that they be requested to convene and -with resoiu- 
 
 render their decision at the earliest practicable date, and to signify their ac- ^e^Qg 40 "' 
 
 ceptance of the trust to the Acting Commissioner. upon the 
 
 subject re- 
 
 Adopted. ferred - 
 
 "By Mr. Stubbs: 
 
 Resolved, That before pooling, any road in the Eastern Pool may deduct Proposition 
 one-half the average rate per ton for Freight or per Passenger on the freight ance of one- 
 or passengers carried in excess of its allotment. ^ BB q^^ 
 
 by any 
 
 In your judgment, Mr. Chairman, is there any account- member - 
 ing difficulty in the proposition ? 
 
 The Commissioner — No; very much easier than the other 
 way of deducting $4.80 per ton for the line. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Mr. Towne directed me to offer that resolu- 
 tion. It is to mitigate any dissatisfaction or possible dis- 
 ruption of the Pool, on account of failure of the Arbi- 
 trators to hit a pretty nearly fair distribution of the 
 traffic in accordance with the earnings. He does not think 
 that the $4.80 per ton is sufficient. He understands how 
 that $4.80 per ton was established down at St. Louis; that 
 it was all we could get Mr. Hoxie to consent to. 
 
128 
 
 The Commissioner— It would make a very large difference, 
 averaging on the rate each road would take out of the excess, 
 because your average rate per ton per mile is very much dif- 
 ferent on different roads. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— Understand that in making settlements for 
 the month the Commissioner would find the average rate for 
 the whole tonnage of the roads, and take one-half of that. 
 
 The Commissioner — All the roads combined ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Because, if you took it at one-half the aver- 
 age over each road, you see at once one road might carry in 
 that month a larger proportion than usual of low class 
 freight, or a larger proportion of first-class freight. 
 
 The Commissioner— To show you how that would work — 
 in October the Central Pacific received $11.43 per ton, while 
 theB. & M. received $5-74 per ton. 
 
 cSngf5 ent Mr * Goddard— I move to amend, by making that in the 
 fr r om one- n sna P e °* a percentage, deducting for Freight on the excess 
 40 per cent, and for Passenger 25 per cent. 
 
 Mr. Miller — I would like to ask if this is intended to be 
 a part of the Agreement? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Certainly. I will accept the amendment. 
 
 Mr. Goddard — I will second the resolution as amended. 
 
 The Commissioner — The resolution as amended reads as 
 follows : 
 
 Resolved, That any road in the Eastern Pool, carrying Freight or Passen- 
 gers in excess of its allotment, may deduct at the rate of 40 per cent, of its 
 earnings from the excess of Freight, and 25 per cent, of its earnings on its 
 excess of Passenger, before pooling. 
 
 The vote stood : 
 
 half to a 
 
 percentage 
 
 basis. 
 
 Vote there- 
 on. 
 
 Ayes— A. T. & S. F., A. & P., C. P., G. H. & S. A., S. 
 P.,T. &P., U.P.— 7. 
 
 Nays— B. & M., D. & E. G., D. & R. G. W.— 3. 
 
 Lost. 
 
129 
 
 Mr. Goddard— The time is getting pretty short, and in 
 order to facilitate matters I would offer the following: 
 
 Resolved, That two committees be appointed, one General Committee of Committees 
 Four upon the formulation of an Agreement for the government of the Trans- uEon'of" 
 Continental Association, the other to comprise representation of the Passen- Agreemont. 
 ger Department of each road, to discuss matters pertaining to the Passenger 
 Department of this Association and to adopt such rules and regulations for 
 their government as may seem to be necessary. The Commissioner to act as 
 Chairman of the Passenger Commi'tee. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Eccles. 
 
 Adopted. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Is it understood, since the failure of our SonSSss 
 resolution as to the increasing the amount to be deducted on Sumed? 
 account of excess, that the allowance provided for under 
 the old agreement is to stand, or must we debate that again ? 
 I do not think any one present wants anything but what is 
 equitable, and the only argument against a deduction for 
 the carriage of Freight or Passengers has been the tempta- 
 tion to use that as a new way of getting business. 
 
 Mr. Goddard argued favorably upon the adoption of such 
 a provision. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — The resolution to increase the allowance to 
 40 per cent, on Freight and to 25 per cent, on Passenger 
 evidently will not carry now. Is it the general understand- 
 ing here, so that there will not be any debate upon it, that 
 the old rule of $4.80 on Freight and nothing on Passenger, 
 or something corresponding to that, shall prevail ? If we 
 will modify that resolution — reduce it to 33J or to 30 on 
 Freight and down to 20 per cent, or something less on Pas- 
 senger—would that remove the objections of those who 
 voted in the negative? I don't want to take the time of this 
 meeting, but desire some instructions to the General Com- 
 mittee, so as to preclude the possibility of debate, and I 
 want, under instructions from our General Manager, to get 
 all the allowance on the excess that we can. 
 
 Mr. Miller — I am perfectly willing to let the old basis 
 rule. I am not willing to increase it. 
 
130 
 
 Mr. Hooper— I am perfectly willing to let the Passenger 
 stand without any allowance. 
 
 The Commissioner— Under Mr. Goddard's resolution I 
 would appoint Messrs. Kimball, Stubbs, Ristine and Muir 
 as the General Committee, and would call the Passenger 
 Meeting for 7:30 p. m. 
 
 Upon motion an adjournment was taken until 9 a. m. to- 
 morrow. 
 
 Wednesday, January 21st — Morning Session. 
 
 Meeting convened at 9:30 a. m. 
 
 The General Committee upon the formulation of the 
 Agreement being still in session, upon motion an adjourn- 
 ment was taken until 2 p. m. 
 
 Wednesday, January 21st — Afternoon Session. 
 General Committee still in session. 
 
 It was 
 
 Agreed tele- Besolved, That the proper officers of Lines, members of this Association, 
 ?™ m restor - w iH immediately notify their several Agents that on and after January 22, 
 etc. 1885, all Special Rates, Discounts and Kebates are cancelled and must be 
 
 withdrawn forthwith. Thereafter the published rates and those duly an- 
 nounced by the Commissioner must be strictly and honestly observed . This 
 notice to be given by telegraph, and to include Colorado as well as Trans- 
 Continental business, and Agents shall be instructed to be governed accord- 
 ingly. 
 
 Adjourned until 8 p. m. 
 
 Wednesday, January 21st — Evening Session. 
 
 Meeting convened at 8 p. m. 
 
 All members represented. 
 
 The Commissioner — I believe the first business before the 
 meeting will be the report of the General Committee upon 
 the revision of the Agreement. 
 
 Deferred. 
 
131 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— I move — 
 
 That it ba the understanding that the Resolutions providing for two Pools, Resolutions 
 
 and for the Board of Arbitration, be included in and prefix the General GeJeraf 
 
 Agreement. Agreement. 
 
 Secouded by Mr. Kimball. 
 Adopted. 
 
 By Mr. Stubbs: 
 
 Eesolved, That Mr. Goddard be appointed a Committee of One to wait 
 upon Vice President Hoxie, of the Texas and Pacific Company, report to 
 him the nature of the Agreement consummated at this session, and secure 
 and notify the Commissioner of the concurrence of the Texas & Pacific 
 therein. 
 
 Resolved, That Messrs. Hoxie and Goddard each be apprised by wire of 
 the appointment of this Committee. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Smith. 
 
 Adopted. 
 
 It was agreed : 
 
 That the B >ard of Arbitration in their discretion may continue the date 
 set for the hearing of arguments until March 1st, upon evidence satisfactory 
 to them being presented to show that such extension desired by any member 
 is necessary, aDd the delay upon the part of such member unavoidable. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs offered the following: 
 
 Resolved, That the Pool Settlements between the roads in this Association 
 shall be made on the following plan : 
 
 The Commissioner shall furnish all members with statement of the Freight 
 
 and Passenger business separately, as soon as such statements shall be pre- 
 
 and is hereby instructed to furnish an additional statement covering 
 
 bdth Passenger and Freight business, showing the total balances due from and 
 
 to whom due on account of both characters of traffic. 
 
 It is understood that upon the latter statement settlements shall be made. 
 
 Mr. Goddard 
 to interview 
 officials of 
 T. & P. R. R. 
 add get their 
 assent to 
 Agreement. 
 
 Board of Ar- 
 bitration to 
 have power 
 to continue 
 date for re- 
 ceiving of 
 Argument. 
 
 Plan 'or 
 making 
 Pool Settle- 
 ments. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Kimball. 
 
 Adopted. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— I move- 
 
 That the resolution be regarded as covering the Pool Settlements not only 
 for the future but for the past. 
 
132 
 
 Question 
 upon intent 
 of Agree- 
 ment re Set- 
 tlements 
 and debate 
 thereon. 
 
 Freight statement should be sent to each member for 
 their information. Passenger likewise, both to be included 
 finally in a consolidated statement upon which the settle- 
 ment between the Lines shall be made. I take it that that 
 is the only statement the Agreement provides for. It might 
 transpire that while a road may be "short" on Freight, it 
 may be "over" on Passenger. Again, the Northern Pa- 
 cific subsidy is deducted from the total earnings, which can- 
 not be done until consolidated statement is made. 
 
 The motion was adopted. 
 
 The Commissioner — There is one point in the Agreement 
 which is not clear to me. It states that this settlement 
 shall be made after deducting the subsidies. The settle- 
 ments are on your actual earnings, and have nothing to do 
 with the Pool whatever. I have been trying to get it 
 through my head without asking the question, but I really 
 cannot do it. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — The point is this, you first ascertain what 
 the earnings of a given Line were for a given month, then 
 you deduct from that the subsidies, the remainder to be 
 pooled. 
 
 The Commissioner — You make the same deduction from 
 
 the road that is "over" as from the road that is 
 
 short." 
 short" 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — You do not determine the "over'' and 
 until the deductions are made. 
 
 The Commissioner — If you take it from the total what 
 difference does it make ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Don't conflict your subsidy business with 
 your pool business. 
 
 Informal discussion. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — The point is, we pool on San Francisco, 
 Marysville and all the Pacific Coast business. Now we pay 
 a subsidy upon the actual earnings on San Francisco, and that 
 is a little confusing. The Acting Commissioner will have 
 to figure that out in some way. 
 
133 
 
 The Commissioner — Take the subsidy we pay the Pacific 
 Mail — §95,000 per month, getting a drawback on the tonnage 
 we ship that way. You take the $95,000 and get your credit 
 of Freight that yon handle by P. M. S. S. and your Passen- 
 ger business separately, finding the percentages between the 
 two, and showing the balance due them on account of Pas- 
 senger subsidy and on account of Freight subsidy, and then 
 apply the Passenger percentages to the balance due them 
 account of Passenger subsidy, and Freight percentages ac- 
 count Freight subsidy — this in reference to the mode of dis- 
 tribution of that subsidy. 
 
 Mr. Ristine suggested that the point in the Agreement 
 raised by the Acting Commissioner had better be referred 
 to the Executive Committee for their solution. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— I take it that as the Agreement stands there 
 is a confusion, and that the Commissioner cannot go ahead 
 without assuming some responsibility which he may be op- 
 posed to assuming, and I would offer the following: 
 
 Resolved, That it is the intent and meaning of the Contract providing for 
 the payment of subsidies and the pooling of earnings that the Lines " Short " 
 shall pay the share of subsidies properly chargeable to the amount transferred 
 to them by the Lines u Over." 
 
 Resolved, That the Acting Commissioner shall consider and report to the 
 Executive Committee a plan which shall carry out the intent of the Contract 
 as declared above. 
 
 Resolution 
 regarding 
 Pool Settle- 
 ments. 
 Commis- 
 sioner to 
 submit plan 
 for carrying 
 nut intent 
 of Agree- 
 ment. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Hannaf ord. 
 Carried unanimously. 
 By Mr. Hannaford : 
 
 Resolved, That the Executive Committee be authorized to fix a compen- Compensa- 
 sation for the services of Mr. L. G. Cannon, while he shall act as Commis- f^ con^ ** 
 noner. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Smith. 
 Adopted. 
 
 Mr. ftrUBBfl — The Executive Committe. might be instructed 
 to do this as soon as possible. 
 
 niissioner: 
 
 remarks 
 
 theroon. 
 
Northern 
 Pacific al- 
 lowed to 
 meet local 
 
 ture 
 
 134 
 
 The Commissioner— It is likely that Mr. Smith will not 
 arrive here before the first of the month. 
 
 Mr. Hannaford— My idea was that the Executive Com- 
 mittee could fix it before we left here. 
 
 Mr. Stcjbbs — Those members of the Committee who are 
 here could agree, and the certificate of the Chairman would 
 be all the authority required to draw the amount. 
 
 Mr. Hannaford introduced the question of making Special 
 Rates, to take care of the particular interests of the North- 
 
 manufac- em p ac ifi c< 
 
 Mr. Stubbs thought itj^was covered by the Agreement, 
 and stated that he did not care what rates were made by the 
 O. R. & N, and Northern Pacific to Portland, to meet local 
 manufacture, and so long as such rates did not interfere with 
 the intent of the Agreement, he would be perfectly willing 
 that they should make such rates. 
 
 Mr. Hannaford particularized the rates ruling on Pottery 
 and claimed them to be prohibitory as against the potteries 
 in Oregon. He said that the rate of 78 cents, operative in 
 1884, would take care of the business, and asked if there 
 was any objection to his taking care of that particular 
 traffic, if he could arrange to do so. 
 
 It was the sense of the meeting that the Northern Lines 
 might arrange to take care of the business in question. 
 
 The Commissioner— Suppose this 78 cent rate is made 
 by the Northern Lines. Is there any objection to putting it 
 in on California business as the same necessity might 
 apply here. 
 
 Mr. Gray — We may not be able to secure the approval of 
 the Iowa Lines. 
 
 Mr. Shelby— Suppose we give a list of specials necessary 
 upon articles of this kind to the Commissioner, and pass a 
 resolution that it shall become operative upon a certain 
 date. 
 
135 
 
 Mr. Eistixe suggested that as a matter coming under the 
 Freight Department. 
 
 Action deferred until the convening of the Freight De- 
 partment. 
 
 Mr. Ristine thought the words * 'questions of general ^fi^Za 
 policy," should be erased from the Agreement, and said: I bSeUiereoa 
 would not regard that the making of these Contract Rates or 
 any general scheme of Contract Rates as being subject to a 
 unanimous vote, as it would result in the non-protection of 
 the interests of the majority in a great many cases. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs objected, and asked for the reading of the res- 52*5 office 
 olution upon the subject of Union Ticket Office in San FrSSsco; 
 
 FrancisCO. debate on.' 
 
 The Commissioner — The resolution introduced by the 
 Passenger Department reads as follows : 
 
 Resolved, That the Trans- Continental Association establish and main- 
 tain one, and only one City Overland Ticket Office in San Francisco, for the 
 sale of tickets, without influence or prejudice over the lines of all the mem- 
 bers of the Association, and that in case any Line establishes another or in- 
 dependent Ticket Office in San Francisco, in violation of this provision, the 
 sale ot tickets over said Line shall be discontinued in the Ticket Office of 
 this Association. 
 
 Resolved, That the Agent in charge of said Ticket Office, and his Assistant 
 or Assistants, shall be appointed by the Commissioner, subject to the approval 
 of the Executive Committee, and serve for one year unless sooner removed by 
 the Commissioner. 
 
 Resolved, That said Agent and his Assistants shall be under the control of 
 and subject to the orders of the Commissioner. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — There is a pretty good case where unani- 
 mous vote ought not to obtain. I think a majority vote 
 ought to rule just about as well. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — The adoption of that resolution would in a 
 measure conflict with an Agreement entered into by the 
 Presidents of the Atlantic & Pacific and Southern Pacific 
 Companies, and it is a matter which I would not, under the 
 circumstances interfere with without authority. 
 
136 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — There is no Agreement made which says 
 that the Atlantic & Pacific, Union Pacific, or any other Pa- 
 cific Company, except the Central Pacific Company, shall 
 have a Ticket Office in this city. The Agreement in ques- 
 tion says that the Atlantic & Pacific may put on their 
 tickets, this as between the Central Pacific, the Southern 
 Pacific and the Atlantic & Pacific. Now, here is an Asso- 
 ciation of which the C. P. and S. P. Companies are mem- 
 bers with the Union Pacific and other companies equally 
 interested in this business. The Association is for mutual 
 protection, for the maintenance of rates, and for economy 
 of working the institution. This resolution did not origi- 
 nate with the Central Pacific, but the Central Pacific has 
 informed every one of these members that has interrogated 
 its officers on the question, what the Atlantic & Pacific had 
 the right to do under their contract. Now, these Eastern 
 Companies have been somewhat exercised over this matter. 
 They say if the Atlantic & Pacific opens an office here, that 
 its only connection is the A. T. & S. F. ; that the Central 
 Pacific have a divided interest which could not be associ- 
 ated with that of the A. & P. ; and if they are going to open 
 a Ticket Office, the Union Pacific is going to open a Ticket 
 Office; the Texas & Pacific say they will open one; the D. & 
 R. G. say we must open one, etc., and the result would be 
 that we would have a number of Ticket Offices. Now, this 
 proposition, this suggestion, was made by the Central Pa- 
 cific to avoid that — that the Association shall agree that there 
 shall be but one Ticket Office here. We will step down and 
 out, take down the Central Pacific signs, and make it a Cen- 
 tral Union Ticket Office under the control of the Commis- 
 sioner, and that shall be the only office in which tickets 
 shall be sold. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — Why was not the sign taken down be- 
 fore? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Time enough to do it now. 
 
 Mr. Ristine— The Atlantic & Pacific paid $7,000,000.00, 
 with that as one of the considerations. 
 
137 
 
 Mr. Stcjbbs — This comes to you as a proposition from the 
 Association, not from the Central Pacific. 
 
 Mr, Ristixe— We can see the father of it. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs - Well, we are all apt to see things that don't 
 exist. Mr. Ristine, I am simply stating this case, in order 
 that we may have a proper understanding of it, and you 
 may say what you please, these men know whether I am 
 correctly stating the matter or not. The proposition is to 
 neutralize this competition. That is the very object in view 
 in forming this Association, and it is for that reason, and 
 that only, that the proposition is made, and I desire it put 
 on record that so far as the individual interests of the Cen- 
 tral Pacific system are concerned, it don't care one 
 
 whether the Atlantic & Pacific opens a Ticket Office here 
 or not. It is only on account of our connections. We 
 know it will raise "Hail Columbia" here, and that it will 
 tend more towards the disruption of the Association than 
 any other agency. Now, just put it out of your mind that 
 the Central and Southern Pacific care one cent whether you 
 open a Ticket Office or not. We made this Agreement with 
 you and we propose to carry it out. The question is, 
 whether as an Association interest it would be a better 
 plan. We are ready to come forward and take down our 
 sign. We are the only actual Terminal Line, and for the 
 sake of peace and for the protection of the interests of all, 
 we are willing to come forward with this proposition made 
 by the Central Pacific system in the interest of its con- 
 nections, in the iuterest of harmony. That is the basis 
 I desire it put upon, and upon no other. Now, you have the 
 statement, and if I have misstated the case as to the effect, I 
 re to be corrected. They all know whether the proposi- 
 tion originates with the Central Pacific or not, and whether 
 the Central Pacific have been exercised or not upon the 
 subject of the Atlantic & Pacific opening a Ticket Office. 
 
 Mr. Ki>iim:— We have not said whether we were or were 
 not going to open a Ticket Office as yet. We have not des- 
 
138 
 
 ignated any time or date. We will invite you all to be pres- 
 ent at the " opening." . 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— It is- pretty generally understood that you 
 propose it. I think that we have all here that we will have 
 here to-morrow. Why not act upon it and get it in the Min- 
 utes of the General Meeting ? 
 
 see pat e 135 ]\| r , Kimball— I will offer the resolution. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Miller. 
 
 The vote stood ; 
 
 Ayes-B. & M., 0. P., G. H. & S. A., S. P., T. & P., CL 
 P.— 6. 
 
 Nays— A. & P.— 1. 
 
 Declared lost. 
 
 [Note— The Representatives of the A, T. & S. F., D. & 
 K. G. and D. & R. G. W., left for the East at 3 p.m. to- 
 day; N. P. and O. R. & N. not interested.] 
 
 Mr. Risttne — I vote "nay" for the reason that it is a mat- 
 ter which I consider as beyond my province — a matter I 
 would not feel authorized to affirm, as it might modify or 
 change the contract entered into between the Presidents of 
 the Atlantic & Pacific and Southern Pacific Companies. 
 
 Freight b ^ ne Commissioner introduced the question of Freight by 
 fra!ns nger passenger trains. Shall it be considered as poolable ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs offered the following: 
 
 Resolved, That owing to the fact of the Freight business done by Passenger 
 train over the Union Pacific being regarded as Express business, and entering 
 into the accounts of the Pacific Express Company, and not into the accounts 
 of the Union Pacific Railroad Company proper, the managing officer of the 
 Union Pacific Company claiming to have no authority over the business 
 in question, that all Freight business done by Passenger train by the other 
 Companies parties to this Agreement, be excluded from the Pool and from all 
 assessments for expenses, subsidies, etc., from which the earnings from same 
 class of business on Freight passing over the Union Pacific is excluded. 
 
139 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Ristine. 
 
 Adopted. 
 
 On motion the meeting adjourned until 9 a.m. to-morrow. 
 
 Thursday, January 22cf — Morning Session. 
 Meeting convened at 9 a. m. 
 The Commissioner — Do you desire that East and West- Questions* 
 
 J to the re- 
 
 bound Pool Keports shall be rendered, such as I have pre- Jg* 8 ^-^ 
 
 sented here, and which give you the business from all East- members. 
 
 em points, but which the Consolidated Statement of Pool 
 
 Settlements does not give ? The latter is simply a General 
 
 Statement, while the East and West-bound Reports give 
 
 statistical information; and if it is not deemed necessary 
 
 that we compile these reports, it saves us considerable labor 
 
 in figuring percentages. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — I should say that these reports should be 
 continued. 
 
 Mr. Kimball — It strikes me so. We would have a more 
 intelligent understanding of the business. It would prob- 
 ably cause more labor. 
 
 Mr. Hannaford — What would be the increase in the ex- 
 pense? 
 
 The Commissioner— Probably the Pool is going to cause 
 the employment of six more men. 
 
 Mr. Hannaford — I mean in the publishing of East and 
 West-bound Reports — how much additional expense to what 
 you would necessarily have to have to get out the final re- 
 sult? 
 
 The Commissioner— Not so very much. 
 
 Mr. Hannaford— About how much ? 
 
 The Commissioner — We might say one more clerk. 
 
140 
 
 European 
 Freight 
 Traffic- 
 Question 
 thereon. 
 
 Turpentine. 
 Rate on. 
 
 Mr. Hannaford — I should say continue them. 
 
 Agreed. 
 
 The Commissioner— I would like to ask a question 
 
 Eu- 
 
 ropean freight traffic, transported under Through Contracts, 
 etc., shall be reported to the Pool at actual earnings." 
 What does that mean? 
 
 Mr. Ristine — That means without regard to the 66 per 
 cent, of the New York rate, if it goes by New York. 
 
 The Commissioner — Do you mean actual earnings of the 
 Association? 
 
 Mr. Ristine— Take New Orleans business; 87| per cent., 
 of the regular rate is pooled. 
 
 The Commissioner — You put in 87J per cent, of the traffic 
 billed to New Orleans ? 
 
 Mr. Ristine — I should say no. Suppose a rate on a com- 
 modity is $2 to St. Louis, through New Orleans, and it is 
 billed out at 11.50. They have to put in 87J per cent, of 
 $2, which is the agreed rate, They do not put in actual 
 earnings. If they take it at $1.50 they have to put in 87J 
 per cent, of the tariff rate. 
 
 The Commissioner — If you bill it through on Through 
 Bills of Lading at $1.50, and that is the through rate, it is 
 billed through to New Orleans to take steamers or other 
 vessels from there, and you would put in 87J per cent, of 
 the through rate of the line between here and New Orleans. 
 
 Discussion deferred. 
 
 The Commissioner presented for the consideration of the 
 members a letter ex E. A. Tilford, Standard Oil Company, 
 in reference to rates upon Turpentine. 
 
 Mr. Shelby — What is that Turpentine rate ? 
 
 The Commissioner — Same rate we had upon Oil, 6 1 3 cents 
 per gallon, only they desire this from St. Louis. 
 
141 * 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— Turpentine comes from St. Louis. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — I would state that so far as I am concerned 
 that there is no such understanding as Mr. Tilford names. 
 There was no three years' statement in the proposition atalL 
 This is the first that I have heard of a contract having a 
 three years' duration in connection with the Standard Oil 
 Company. There was a point raised in connection with 
 Turpentine, as to whether we would continue the Turpen- 
 tine rate from St. Louis, as it existed in 1884, and we said 
 that we would endeavor to have it continued for the Stand- 
 ard Oil Company. That is all I know about it. Probably 
 Mr. Stubbs can explain further. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I think you state it correctly. At the same 
 time, at the time we were negotiating there was no reasona- 
 ble probability that we would not be able to accomplish just 
 what we said we would try to, and of course the contract was 
 closed with Whittier, Fuller & Co. upon that basis. In or- 
 der that you may properly understand this matter, it would 
 probably be fair that I make an extended explanation. For 
 a great many years we have been endeavoring to get the Oil 
 traffic onto our rail lines. It was almost exclusively done 
 by Cape Horn. Previous to the Standard Oil Company 
 coming here the Oil trade of this coast was controlled by 
 A. Hayward, and from three to four hundred thousand cases 
 of Coal Oil came round Cape Horn every year. As early as 
 1871 the Central Pacific and Union Pacific endeavored to 
 take that Oil, beginning by using F. B. Taylor & Co. here, 
 but we made no progress whatever. The first inroads upon 
 the traffic were made by Mr. Blake, of the Continental Oil 
 Company, who had done the business in his tank cars to 
 Colorado and other Eastern points for quite a period. He 
 asked me here to introduce the Tank Line arrangement into 
 the California business. He was known to the Union Pacific 
 Company, and I do not know but what he came here at their 
 instance and for that purpose. He was at that time a man* 
 of large capital and of great energy, and by a combination 
 with Taylor & Co. they did make some progress in getting 
 
142 
 
 Oil onto the rail lines. Afterwards, however, the Standard 
 Oil Company undertook to establish themselves on this coast 
 and bought out Low & Co., who had succeeded in getting 
 Hay ward's Oil business. They then came to us for a con- 
 tract, and we made a contract with them and with the Con- 
 tinental Oil Company by which or under which they 
 agreed to ship exclusively by rail, and the rates 
 practically up to 1884 have been what they were 
 during that year. I believe we had to make one reduction. 
 We found, however, that even the Standard Oil Company 
 could not control this business. There were firms here that 
 had a commission business, and had large capital and would 
 either take consignments of Oil, making large advances on 
 them, or would buy the Oil outright, and would ship round 
 <3ape Horn, so that in the neighborhood of from one to two 
 hundred thousand cases have still continued to go round 
 Cape Horn. The Standard Oil Company was not able to 
 •control all the refineries at the East. The Tide Water Com- 
 pany was antagonistic to them, but they had been working, 
 and only succeeded last year in neutralizing their competi- 
 tion with the Tide Water Company, which gave them an 
 additional advantage, although to-day there are quite a num- 
 ber of refineries at the East, and some 'in Pittsburgh, 
 which are independent of and in competition with the Stand- 
 ard Oil Company. The principal man here who was in com- 
 petition with the Standard Oil Company was Whittier, of 
 Whittier, Fuller & Co., a firm very capable, shrewd, ^,nd 
 with an abundance of capital. Their shipments amounted 
 to over 100,000 cases per annum. For a long time, I might 
 say two years, I have urged upon both the Continental and 
 Standard Companies that it would be utterly useless for them 
 to undertake to control this business, unless they could take 
 care of Whittier, Fuller & Co. W. F. & Co. large dealers here, 
 like the others, had a large jobbing trade and also a retail 
 trade. They were strictly speaking a Paint and Oil house and 
 it was part of their business. For two years they have been 
 undertaking more or less to control Whittier, Fuller & Co., 
 and we have been aiding them, as you know, in the low 
 
143 
 
 rates that we have made upon White Oil and upon Linseed 
 Oil; but they found that bulldozing tendencies would not 
 work; they could not accomplish anything. I think that 
 ever since last January they have been trying to fix the mat- 
 ter up on the basis of co-operation. Propositions and 
 counter propositions have passed between them. In August 
 last I was informed of the situation. They had finally 
 reached a basis at which they could contract. Among other 
 things that had to be taken care of was the Turpentine 
 trade, and one of the conditions that Mr. Whittier imposed 
 was th,at the Standard Oil Company should go out of cer- 
 tain Turpentine trade, and deliver it here at five cents per 
 gallon; in other words, deliver it at about Cape Horn cost. 
 That the Standard Oil Company cannot do and pay the Oil 
 rates which have already been established; but they were 
 willing to make some allowance on Turpentine, which, 
 amounted to 40 car-loads per annum, in consideration of the 
 Oil trade of Whittier, Fuller & Co., although they make 
 very little out of that, and the further relief from Whit- 
 tier, Fuller & Co.'s competition in this market in the way of 
 prices. I excused myself to these people for the interest 
 we took in having this matter fixed up, on the ground that 
 from the very start we had looked forward to a time when 
 this Oil business should be fixed to our lines, and then we 
 should reap some of the benefits that we have been working 
 for by an increased rate. They had all the time expressed 
 themselves as willing to stand a higher rate whenever the 
 condition of the competition was such that they could 
 afford to pay it. About the time that they had con- 
 cluded this thing they came to me, and I took the 
 ground with Mr. Tilford, that we wanted an advance rate 
 on Coal Oils. They did not like that very much, but I 
 referred to the fact that they had promised all along that 
 when the time came that they could afford to do it, they 
 would; and I thought that time was approaching now. I 
 urged upon them the fact that Mr. Vaillant, of the Lake- 
 Shore Road, had been after Mr. Ristine, complaining that 
 the rate was too low, and I feared unless they would con- 
 
144 
 
 sent to some advance that we should not be able to continue 
 the contract for the ensuing year. Then Mr. Tilford re- 
 ferred to their contract with Whittier, Fuller & Co. as to 
 why they could not advance the scale of prices for the Oil. 
 They must agree also to deliver the Turpentine here at five 
 cents per gallon. I wanted that we should keep Turpentine 
 on the same level as Oil. He said, "No; this is an arbitrary 
 matter, we have to deliver the Turpentine here at 5 cents per 
 gallon, and we are willing to do that and meet the loss; but 
 we want you to guarantee us that the loss shall not be greater 
 than it would be based upon the old rates of last year." The 
 whole matter was referred to Mr. Ristine, and we agreed 
 that we would recommend to the Eastern Lines certain Oil 
 rates. Mr. Tilford said he would recommend these rates 
 to his people. After he had been East he returned, stating 
 that they could not stand them, that the competition was such 
 it would not allow them to stand the rates we proposed. 
 After we went to Chicago, Mr. Yaillant and the Pittsburgh 
 men were met by us with Mr. Tilford, and we agreed upon 
 terms which made a difference of about half a cent per gal- 
 lon. In regard to Turpentine, we said we would try our 
 best to continue the old rate. I cannot think that Mr. Til- 
 ford understands that I made a specific guarantee that for 
 three years the old rate on Turpentine should obtain, but 
 we certainly did guarantee that we would do our utmost, 
 and at the time we gave that guarantee he was certainly jus- 
 tified from past experience in taking that guarantee as about 
 all he needed in order to secure him. I am willing to say 
 this morning — I feel constrained to say — that I think the ad- 
 vantages to the Trans-Continental are such that we can af- 
 ford, whether the Southwestern Association will agree to 
 join in this rate or not, to say to the Standard Oil Com- 
 pany, on Turpentine from St. Louis, we will guarantee to 
 make last year's rates on this commodity. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — And for the same period that the rates on 
 oil are guaranteed ? 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I would not give it to them for three years. 
 
145 
 
 I would do it, however, for the term of their Oil contract. 
 That contract only extends for this year. 
 
 Mr. Eistine — There was no time specified. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — That, however, is the understanding. My 
 object in presenting the matter is to get that thing fixed. 
 Now, I talked with Mr. Goddard about that yesterday, and 
 he told me unequivocally that it was his understanding that 
 the old rates on Turpentine were guaranteed from St. Louis, 
 and he said to me that he was willing — indeed, he thought 
 we ought to do it — which is my opinion. I have thought 
 nothing about the three years, and in fact I only glanced at 
 the letter. I had overlooked the fact that it stated that we 
 were bound for three years. Of course this is only one step, 
 not the final step, but a very strong one, toward securing the 
 entire Oil Traffic to the rail. 
 
 Mr. Shelby spoke of the liability of the California produc- 
 tion competing heavily for the Oil business of the coast. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs thought there was no fear of that from present 
 indications. 
 
 By Mr. Stubbs: 
 
 Resolved, That the Acting Commissioner confer with the Pacific Coast Asso- 
 ciation and obtain their approval to the Turpentine rate from St. Louis that 
 existed last year, to continue during this year, for the Standard and Continental 
 Oil Companies, and explain to the Pacific Coast Association that we were 
 enabled to secure higher rates on Tank and Case Oil in consideration of this 
 protection on Turpentine. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Miller. 
 
 Adopted. 
 
 By Mr. Stubbs— I move — 
 
 That it be the understanding that the rates on Turpentine from St. Louis 
 to Pacific Coast through points, guaranteed to the Standard and Continental 
 Oil Companies during the year 1884, be approved for 1885, with the further 
 understanding that this Association protect them whether the Pacific Coast 
 Association Lines join with them or not. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Smith. 
 Carried. 
 
era Assns. 
 
 146 
 
 The Commissioner — Is the Committee ready to report this 
 morning. 
 
 committee Mr. Ristine — I would like to know whether we are going 
 
 to confer . . ..._,._. , . 
 
 wfthEast- to have a committee visit the Trunk Line and other Associ- 
 eiations to see whether we cannot come to some understand- 
 ing with them or not. 
 
 Mr. Hannafokd offered the following — 
 
 Resolved, That a committee of three be selected to await on the Pacific 
 Coast. Middle and Western States and Trunk Line Associations, authorized 
 to treat with them for authority to make a limited number of Special Con- 
 tracts on Pacific Coast business. Such contracts to be on a percentage re- 
 duction basis, and with the understanding that such reductions shall apply- 
 equally from all points covered by above Associations. 
 
 Tiesolved, That when said authority be secured, the Committee shall send 
 their report to the Commissioner, and the Commissioner shall have the au- 
 thority to make the contracts. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Ristine. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I am willing to vote for the resolution with 
 the understanding 
 
 That the Committee have authority and shall be instructed to treat with 
 the New England Lines in like manner as with the Trunk Lines, but that in 
 case of failure to secure the assent of the New England Lines, that shall not 
 be construed as prohibiting them from going ahead and making contracts 
 from Trunk Lines, Middle and Western States Lines and Pacific Coast Lines 
 points, regardless of the fact that they cannot do so from New England 
 points. 
 
 I would like to have the resolution name the Committee. 
 I think they should be Eastern representatives, and would 
 suggest Messrs. Kimball, Goddard and Olds, and if Mr. 
 Olds will not go, I should substitute Mr. Miller. 
 
 Mr. Hannafokd thought the gentlemen named, owing to 
 their connection with the Pacific Coast Association, would 
 do considerable good. 
 
 Mr. Ristine was of the opinion that the Central Pacific 
 should be represented. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I am perfectly willing to commit my inter- 
 est to the parties named. 
 
147 
 
 Mr. Ristine — I think it ought to be a Committee of rep- 
 resentatives from each Line, same as the Executive Com- 
 mittee. 
 
 Mr. Stcbbs — If you want to make it a Committee com- 
 posed of a representative from each line, you might put Mr. 
 Gray on the Committee with Mr. Hawley as alternate. For 
 the Central Pacific, Southern Pacific and G. H. & S., A. we 
 will name Mr. Gray, with Mr. Hawley as alternate. I want 
 it understood, if this is to be a Committee of representa- 
 tives from each Line, whether the action of that Committee 
 is going to be unanimous, as the Executive Committee have 
 to be, or not. If it is not going to be unanimous, I shall 
 claim three votes. 
 
 Mr. Kimball was suggested for Chairman of the Commit- 
 tee, bur declined, as he was already Chairman of several 
 Committees, and presented the Secretary with list of names 
 which he thought should serve on the Committee, reading 
 as follows: 
 
 Messrs. Ristine, Hannaford, Kimball, Gray, Olds and Miller. 
 
 The Commissioner — It is understood, of course, that each 
 member of the Committee bears his own expenses. 
 
 No objection being offered, it was so understood. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs' proposed understanding in reference to in- 
 terview with the New England Lines being accepted, the 
 resolution, including the names suggested by Mr. Kimballl, 
 was adopted unanimously. 
 
 Mr. Kimball (handing printed draft of the Agreement to qJ^J^ ' 
 the Acting Commissioner)— The Committee present this as 2°Sn?i"Su- 
 the result of their labors, and I would move — lationof 
 
 ' Agreement. 
 
 That the Agreement be taken up section by section. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Miller. 
 
 Adopted. 
 
 The Preamble to the Agreement being read, Mr. Eistine objections 
 
 ° to Preamble 
 
148 
 
 including* sai(Jr Mr - Kimball, I desire to make a little explanation. 
 
 »ho?t°Lme. Mr. Goddard stated that be should object to the Oregon 
 Short Line being admitted to membership. I now desire to 
 note that objection, in the hope, however, that it will be 
 removed. I expect to see Mr. Goddard in the East, when I 
 trust the matter will be fixed all right. 
 
 Kciidin ^ r * & MITH a ^ so noted objection to the Preamble — "in- 
 8 t Btan C ' By ceding Missouri Pacific Railway system. ; ' Mr. Smith was 
 
 informed that in all former agreements Mr. Hoxie had so 
 
 subscribed for his Company. 
 
 ciaim of o. Mr. Kimball — The Oregon Short Line would claim a vote. 
 
 S. L. for rep- ° 
 
 resema«ion. We regard the Oregon Short Line under the new Agree- 
 ment as entitled to the same representation as any other in- 
 dependent Railroad Company that is a member of this As- 
 sociation. The Oregon Short Line Railway Company is 
 entirely independent in its stock, in its bonds, in its charter 
 and in its organization, of the Union Pacific Compariy. It 
 comes in here and agrees to the terms of this Agreement, 
 assumes and undertakes to discharge all the obligations of 
 membership. It undertakes to pay its proportion of the 
 Northern assessment or subsidy to the Southern Lines. It 
 claims its share of the Southern subsidy to the Northern 
 Lines. There is no pledge under that Agreement that the 
 Oregon Short Line does not consider itself bound by, 
 bound to observe, precisely as any other member; and I 
 want to give notice now that if the membership of the Oregon 
 Short Line is declined by one member or more, the Union 
 Pacific Company will not sign that Agreement. 
 
 Section I. Adopted. 
 Section II. 
 
 position of Mr. Ristine— The D. & R. G., A. T. & S. F. and T. & P. 
 aubscribfng are not represented here directly. It is understood that the 
 ment.and operation of this Agreement is conditional upon all roads 
 Excursion signing it. I desire to say here that I propose to be placed 
 upon precisely the same basis as enjoyed by the Santa Fe 
 road to-day, so far as committing myself is concerned, until 
 
149 
 
 O. R. k. N. 
 claim share 
 in subsidy 
 paid by Nor- 
 thern Lines 
 to Southern- 
 Lines. 
 
 I know their action definitely. I think it will be all right, 
 though. I object to the clause relating to " Excursions" — 
 I do not desire that the matter be left entirely open — that 
 is, I do not desire that Excursion business be openly advo- 
 cated. I am willing to provide for First Class East-bound 
 Excursions, but not Third Class. It should be qualified. 
 
 Mr. Smith offered counter-objections, claiming it would 
 demoralize the Southern business. 
 
 Section III. Adopted. 
 
 Section IV. Adopted. 
 
 Section V. Adopted. 
 
 Section VI. 
 
 Mr. Muir — I should like inserted in that section : 
 
 It being understood that the O. E. & N. shall share in the Portland subsidy 
 paid to the Southern Lines. 
 
 The suggestion of Mr. Muir not being received with 
 favor, he desired his objection noted to the adoption of Sec- 
 tion VI, unless it provided for the point raised by him. 
 
 Section VII. Adopted. 
 Section VIII. 
 
 An objection was raised by Mr. Stebbins and others to upon mo- 
 the exclusion of business for Mojave, Yuma and Roseville Ss pr o^r. 
 Junctions proper. 
 
 Mr. Ristine was willing to include Mojave, if it were 
 made a California common point. 
 
 After some discussion the point was passed, and the Sec- 
 tion adopted. 
 
 Section IX. Adopted. 
 
 Section X. Adopted. 
 
 Section XI. Adopted. 
 
 Section XII. Adopted. 
 
 Section XIII. 
 
150 
 
 Sec. XIII. 
 Questions 
 of General 
 Policy. 
 
 Fruit Rates. 
 
 Debate up- 
 on the adop- 
 tion of the 
 Agreement, 
 and upon 
 objections 
 noted. 
 
 Messrs. Ristine and Miller desired their objections noted 
 to the words occurring in the last clause, Section XIII, 
 " questions of general policy." 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — The members are no doubt all advised as to 
 the matter of Memorial of the California Fruit and Grape 
 Producers. The Central and Southern Pacific Companies 
 think we ought to modify these rates— think they ought to 
 be reduced. I would like to have the matter considered. I 
 had no idea in presenting this matter that the Association 
 would take it up to-day and attempt to change these rates, 
 but thought they might agree to leave it in the hands of the 
 Committee in connection with the Acting Commissioner. 
 
 Mr. Miller — I think that would be a good idea, pro- 
 vided we adopt the Agreement. 
 
 It was agreed to refer the formulation of the Fruit Circu- 
 lar to the proper officers, Pacific Coast Terminal Lines, and 
 the Commissioner. 
 
 The Commissioner — I would like to know whether the 
 members are disposed to accept Mr. Kimball's report or 
 not. The report has been duly submitted, section by sec- 
 tion. No action has been taken thereon. I think there 
 should be some disposition made of this report before pro- 
 ceeding to further business. 
 
 Mr. Miller — I move the adoption of the report of the 
 Committee as read and approved by sections. 
 
 Mr. Ristine— Several members are absent. 
 
 Mr. Kimball — With the understanding that the Agree- 
 ment be adopted by this Association, subject to the concur- 
 rence of each member therein. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — We all understand that the Texas & Pacific 
 have to understand the subject, that the D. & R. G. repre- 
 sentatives have left. There may be, however, some one here 
 empowered to sign for them. I don't know whether we 
 should commit ourselves, not knowing whether Mr. God- 
 darcl may mean to sign it or not. 
 
151 
 
 Mr. Ristixe — We will all maintain it until we hear from 
 all the parties in interest. I think that would be proper. 
 
 Mr. Kimball — Unless the Report of the Committee is 
 adopted, all the actions that follow the provisions of that 
 Agreement fail. We cannot go on with the Committees 
 under the provisions of the Agreement. We cannot set the 
 Arbitrators to work to fix our percentages. We cannot ap- 
 point the Commissioner. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — Will you agree to allow the clause relating JJJf^PJJJ 
 to " unanimous vote" to stand same as it was under pre- Js v U esuo n8 of 
 vious Agreements? That would be one step towards it% pJuc ral etc • 
 
 debate 
 
 Mr. Kimball — Personally I am very much inclined to the hereon- 
 principle that in an Association of this sort, any important 
 action taken should be unanimous. 
 
 Mr. Ristixe— I think so myself. I do not dispute that. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — You believe that any important action should 
 be unanimous, yet you want the words "general policy' 
 stricken out. 
 
 Mr. Ristixe— I say it does not define the matter clearly; 
 it is confusing. I claim that the previous sentence covers 
 it, " the adoption of any proposition that involves revenue.'' 
 That is all I ask. The Commissioner can decide whether 
 a matter arising is a question of general policy or not. You 
 can appeal to his decision, I do not object in order to be 
 technical, or to take advantage of anything. 
 
 .Mi. STUBBS — We want it declared that all important ac- 
 tions that affect the general policy of this Association shall 
 1m- made only by unanimous vote. 
 
 Mr. toTINX— Leave questions of general policy in, but 
 take out the word " Special." 
 
 Mi. Sti IBB8 — I told you yesterday that I was willing to 
 do so, but that when I did so, I would want recorded with 
 in v vote the fact that I should hold that any such scheme as 
 the adoption of a Contract Plan, for example, a committee 
 
152 
 
 to go down East and negotiate with connecting lines to make 
 Special Contracts, and then putting the authority to make 
 these Special Contracts in the hands of the Commissioner 
 would not come under the head of the rate-making power 
 which could be governed by a majority vote. 
 
 Mr . Ristine — Suppose we concede on that one point. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I simply gave that as an illustration. An- 
 other point I made was this. In order that the Association 
 may fully understand it, the changing of the Tariff from 
 Chicago, altering the ratio of the Chicago rates to the New 
 York rates, would be a question that ought to be decided by 
 unanimous vote, and not by a majority vote. Another illus- 
 tration I gave was, that the changing of the relations of 
 Chicago, St. Louis and New Orleans, I regarded would be 
 one of general policy, Mr. Hannaford very quickly expressed 
 himself that the question of renewal of the Spreckels Con- 
 tract, which involves not only the question of making a 
 freight rate East-bound, but also the question of what 
 should be done West-bound, and where there was a conside- 
 ration given — that he would hold as requiring a unanimous 
 vote. I think he is right. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — I think so. If that rate is to be conditioned 
 upon a prohibitory rate from the East, it is a question of 
 general policy, undoubtedly. I should hold that myself. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — In so far as the bearing it may have upon 
 the Association goes, I do not care that these views of mine 
 should be a matter of record, because if we were to take 
 the word " special " out, and the question came up, you, 
 holding as I understand you do, that a change of the Gen- 
 eral Tariff from Chicago could be made by a majority vote, 
 I should object, and we would have to have a ruling, and I 
 would take my chances then; but I want the Association 
 clearly to understand what they are voting for when they 
 vote for rate-making power by a majority. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — There will always be a question as between 
 rates and revenue. All we want is a precedent. I pre- 
 
153 
 
 sumed thrit intent was a very important feature, but I should 
 certainly say, for instance, suppose the Texas & Pacific is 
 made entirely independent of the Missouri Pacific, and the 
 balance of the Association should desire to change the rates 
 from the Missouri Kiver, put them on a different basis, they 
 not running to the River could block the whole game. I 
 say that is wrong. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — Very well, you have no right, neither have 
 I, to assume that one member is going to be an obstruction- 
 ist, that he objects to a proposition in that sense. The right 
 principle would be to assume that there are reasons which 
 proceed from the interest of his Line that cause him to ob- 
 ject to it, and if we concede that and go upon that principle, 
 we have every reason to believe that a reasonable proposi- 
 tion, or the proposed changing of a rate which will have the 
 effect of increasing rather than reducing the revenues of this 
 Association, will secure a unanimous vote, and I do not 
 think we have anything to fear. With the experience I have 
 had I would be perfectly willing to make it all subject to 
 unanimity, the rate-making power and special rates too. I 
 would be willing to do that. I do not think, however, it 
 would be necessary; do not think it would be expedient. It 
 might very often prove a cause of delay. Suppose we do 
 takeout the word "Special," and the Texas & Pacific or 
 even the D. &. R. G. Western, (that has the smallest inter- 
 est in the Line), should object to a certain rate, and found 
 the objection on good grounds affecting the interests of that 
 Company, and the majority arbitrarily went to work and 
 made that rate, did not give their interest due considera- 
 tion, the effect of it would be to bring a notice at once, and 
 the Association would immediately be in peril. The way we 
 have our Agreement framed the minority controls this Asso- 
 ciation at any time, practically, under threat of withdrawal. 
 With this statement as a matter of record, I am perfectly 
 willing to strike out the word " Special." 
 
 Mr. KlKBALL -poke favorably to adoption of the unani- 
 mous principle in the government of the actions of the As- 
 sociation. 
 
154 
 
 EastTouSa. Mr. Ristine referred to the matter of Excursions east- 
 bound, and thought the clause governing that matter should 
 be qualified, admitting the running of Third-class Excur- 
 sions. 
 
 Mr. Smith claimed that the Excursion Agents in the South 
 were all working in the interest of the Atlantic & Pacific 
 Line, and that he had not been able to secure any of that 
 business. He stated his inclination to keep out of the 
 Southern Territory, as far as the Third-Class East-bound 
 Excursion business is concerned, leaving it to the Ticket 
 Agent at Los Angeles to divide the business equally. He 
 thought if Mr. Ristine was allowed to go into that territory 
 and run the Excursions in question, through Excursion 
 Agents acknowledged to be his men, it would put the Texas 
 & Pacific to the expense of going after the business, and the 
 result would be a demoralization of the whole business in 
 the South, 
 
 Mr. Stebbins — As far as the working up of the business is 
 concerned, each Line has the same opportunity for putting 
 agents in the field as the others have. This question, how- 
 ever, should be considered on the ground of benefit to the 
 entire Association. Mr. Goodman can tell more about the 
 effect of these Excursions in the past than anybody else 
 here; but so long as there is so great a difference between 
 our Eirst-class rates and our Third-class rates any encour- 
 agement that is offered to the Third-Class Excursion busi- 
 ness tends inevitably to draw away business from our First- 
 class trains. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — Why don't you work consistently on that? 
 I had more trouble during my administration as Commis- 
 sioner with your Company upon this very proposition than 
 the members are generally aware of. 
 
 Mr. Stebbins — I do not think we have done as much of 
 that as some others have done. At least, I have never heard 
 of it. 
 
Agreemeut. 
 
 155 
 
 Mr. Ristine— I do not desire to open the door, but merely 
 wish to take care of occasional parties. 
 
 No action was had upon the objection of A. & P. to 
 Excursion clause. 
 
 Mr. BTDBBS — I would like to ask how this matter stands? upon the ni- 
 
 tiniate sign- 
 
 Suppose we should agree among ourselves, those who are ins of the 
 here to-day, upon the adoption of this Agreement. Then it 
 lias to go to the Atchison to secure the approval of that 
 Company, or be coolly set in the shades of the Topeka 
 office, to be sat upon and objected to without any opportu- 
 nity on the part of the others to answer their objections or 
 to urge their specific views. 
 
 Mr. Ristine— I think it is very probable that no difficulty 
 will be experienced. Mr. Goddard may, perhaps, send no- 
 tice of one or two corrections or modifications which he may 
 desire made before he consents to it. ■ 
 
 Mr. BTUBB8— That is what I fear. If Mr. Goddard urges 
 objections that I cannot approve, I want to have a chance to 
 see if there is any opportunity of changing his views. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — Have it distinctly understood. Pass a reso- 
 lution here that the Agreement is to stand as presented and 
 printed, that it be submitted to all members, and should any 
 of the members object to any portion of it, they shall fully 
 and clearly explain such objections. Everything in its con- 
 nection to obtain and hold in the interim, and be reli- 
 giously maintained in all respects, the same as if the Contract 
 was signed. 
 
 Mi . BTUBBS — It will take three or four weeks to get this 
 thing settled. In the meantime we cannot provide for refer- 
 ence to arbitration. Who can pat in a statement to-day? We 
 have no Association — no Agreement. Why cannot you put 
 in a telegram to Mr. Goddard and ask him whether he will 
 consent or not? We have made no radical changes. 
 
 Ki-tint. —Mr. Kimball is going to Denver, and will in 
 all probability see Mr. Goddard on Monday. I will agree 
 to anything Mr. Goddard agrees to. 
 
156 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — That will further complicate the matter; 
 while on the other hand, I feel if you should say, " I will 
 do this," that he would also do it. With the close relations 
 between your lines it looks to me like procrastination and 
 delay. He ought to have stayed here yesterday, and helped 
 to see the thing through. We will agree to strike the word 
 " Special" out (speaking for my own interest), you agreeing 
 to take under advisement the question whether you will 
 adopt a rule providing for unanimous vote on everything. 
 
 Mr. Ristine declined to commit himself definitely until 
 he had placed the matter before Mr. Goddard, as he pro- 
 posed to vote jointly with him upon the several propositions. 
 
 By Mr. Ristine— I move — 
 
 That the Agreement as presented by the Committee be forwarded to the 
 absent members with a request that they signify their assent thereto (by wire 
 if necessary), to the Commissioner by February 1st, and that in the meantime 
 the Agreement be carried out as printed by the Commissioner in every par- 
 ticular, and be binding upon all members until all are finaUy heard from. 
 
 Not seconded. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — You are unwilling to agree to this thing to- 
 day, but hold your approval subject to the A. T. & S. F. 
 and T. & P. I want to know whether you are willing to 
 agree to it to-day. 
 
 Mr. Ristine — There is no " nigger in the wood pile " 
 in any way. I say there are three or four members 
 that are absent. There are two or three things in the 
 Agreement as it stands that Mr. Goddard and myself talked 
 over, and that I doubt very much if he will subscribe to, 
 but if he will, I will. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs— Are you willing to go through it with us 
 here to-day and say what you will agree to and what you 
 will not agree ' ? 
 
 Mr. Risttne — I will carry out the' terms of the Agreement 
 in every particular until the other members are heard from. 
 
 Further discussion. 
 
157 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — I want to do tins : That we shall agree among 
 ourselves, if it is possible, and that then you shall telegraph 
 Mr. Goddard, knowing as you do what his points of objec- 
 tion are, if any, saying how you have agreed to settle upon 
 them, and ask him to telegraph his assent, which will give 
 it to us by Saturday. I said that we did not want this 
 Agreement to go down to Topeka, where it might be criti- 
 cized and objections made to it, and we have no opportunity 
 to answer them. 
 
 Mr. Eistine — I will telegraph Mr. Goddard, and give him 
 all the different points. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — You will vote for that Agreement if we take 
 out the word "Special," and you further will take under con- 
 sideration the unanimous vote proposition and the other 
 objection ? 
 
 Mr. Eistine — There is nothing else other than the Excur- 
 sion matter which I can recall. Mr. White was very em- 
 phatic on that point. I do not want to be placed in a posi- 
 tion where the Santa Fe might say "Yes" to one thing and 
 we say "No" to another. 
 
 Mr. Stubbs asked if Mr. Eistine would not subscribe 
 to the Agreement with the modification as suggested ? 
 
 Mr. Eistine— I say that I will take up the different points 
 with Mr. Goddard. I am not going to insist very strongly 
 upon the Excursion clause. 
 
 Mi. Stubbs — But you decline to take up the Agreement 
 and vote upon its adoption ? 
 
 Mi. Eistine — I have expressed myself. 
 
 It was ordered that the word "Special " occurring in 
 third line, fifth clause, Section XIII, be eli r ^ated. 
 
 Mr. Kimball — We all understand what we are voting on 
 now. Let us have a roll-call upon the motion I made to 
 adopt this Agreement, and discharge the Committee. 
 
158 
 
 Motion to 
 adopt 
 
 Agreement, 
 and vote 
 thereon. 
 
 By Mr. Kimball : 
 
 I move the adoption of the Agreement as read. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Stubbs. 
 
 The vote stood as follows : 
 
 Ayes— A. & P., B. & M., C. P., D. & K. G., D. & E. G. 
 W., G. H. & S. A., N. P., O. R. & N., S. P., T. & P., 
 U. P.— 11. 
 
 [Note. — Mr. Ristine's vote, account of A. & P., was recorded in the affirm- 
 ative, with the understanding that the Atlantic & Pacific Company does not 
 in any way commit itself, or change its Contracts or Agreements with the 
 Southern Pacific Railroad Company, and also conditioned upon the accept- 
 ance of the Agreement by the Atchison Company. Mr. Miller's vote account 
 D. & R. G. and D. & R. G. W. were subject to the approval of their respective 
 Receivers. Mr. Hannaford's vote, account O. R. & N. was made with the 
 following remarks: "Mr. Muir authorized me last evening to vote aye, with 
 the proviso that his Line would waive none of its rights to demand a pro- 
 porti on of thesubsidy paid by the Northern Lines to the Southern Lines." 
 Mr. Smith's vote account T. & P. was declared to be subject to the approval 
 of the general officers of that company. ] 
 
 Mr. Stubbs — It is the understanding that Mr. Ristine will 
 communicate with Mr. Goddard at once this afternoon, on 
 the train, and endeavor to secure a response from Mr. God- 
 dard to the Commissioner as early as possible. 
 
 By Mr. Hannaford : 
 
 That the matter of Special Contracts be left in the hands of the Committee, 
 to be taken up at their earliest convenience. 
 
 Seconded by Mr. Kimball. 
 
 Adopted. 
 
 Adjourned. 
 
 Note. — The following telegraphic correspondence occurred 
 prior to the adjournment of the meeting: 
 
 "Richmond, Va., Jan. 21. 
 Thos. L. Kimball, J. M. Hannaford, J. C. Stubbs, J. F. Goddard, Executive 
 Committee, T.-C. Association : 
 
 Your telegram received last evening. A true surprise. Where _will head- 
 
159 
 
 quarters be, and what length of time will engagement cover ? With this in- 
 formation will consider proposition, and give definite answer early next 
 week. 
 
 The generous action of your Committee gratefully appreciated. 
 
 (Signed) C. W. Smith." 
 
 " San Francisco, Jan. 21. 
 ' . if. Smith, Richmond, Va.i 
 
 Present headquarters at San Francisco, and this point preferred. Your 
 u guaranteed for one year, with decided probability it will be perma- 
 nent. 
 
 (Signed) Thos. L. Kimball, 
 
 J. M. Hannafoed, 
 J. C. Stubbs, 
 
 J. F. GODDABD, 
 
 Executive Committee." 
 
 L. G. CANNON, 
 
 Acting Commissioner 
 
 
\BRARy 
 
 0f cau*o*£& 
 
V 
 
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