638 n 3A5 1897 D ^^S fn r^ 9 9 8 JTHEF 1 z 5 ^^2-5^ 35 5 6 CILI :2 5 f THE LIBRARY OF THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA LOS ANGELES Cnrnmission on Secondary ('""TeSD Eduoation, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE A Commission appointed December 2nd, 1895, by His Excellency the Right Honourable Sir J. West Ridgeway, K.C.B., E.C.S.L, late Lieut.-Governor, to inquire as to Secondary (including Industrial and Technical) Education in the Isle of Man, to which is added EVIDENCE IN THE FORM OF A REPORT. FROM THE Elementary School Teachers of the Island IN CONNECi^lf THEREWITH. 1897. Brown & Sons, Limited, Printers, Dcuglas. ■ ^i''-::Si'-:>i^S;'-^-'''\f^->^-4i^-^^^^ ■■ ■'■■ ■■■- W Commission on Secondary ('t?flT') Edueation. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE A Commission appointed December 2nd, 1895, by His Excellency the Right Honouiable Sir J. West Ridgisway, K.C.B., K.C.S.I , late Lieut. -Goveinoi', to inquire as to I'^econdary (including Industrial and Technical) Education in the Isle of Man, to which is added EVIDENCE IN THE FORM OF A REPORT, FRPM THE Elementary School Teachers of the Island IN CONNECTION THEREWITH. 1897. Brown & Sons, Limited, Printers, Dougl.'\s. 6>38 M3A5 (897 NOTES. Where cjuestions are not numbered, the replies are part of the answer to the immediately preceding numbered question. Where nuinl)ers appear attached to part of an answer, the information applies to matter not asked for in the question. General remarks bv the members of the Commission are not numbered. 1C99810 I i I i COMMISSION ON SECONDARY EDUCATION. jVdllNXJTi^^JS OF ElVIDB^OHl. FIRST DAY.— Douglas, Thursday, May 21st, 1896. The Commission appointed by the late Governor (Sir West Kidgcway) to consider the question of secondary and technical education in the Isle of Man, met at the Government Buildings. Douglas, to-day. The members of the commission present were the Lord Bishop (Dr. Straton), chairman ; EcT. F. B. Wallers, M.A. (Principal of King William's College), Mr A. W. Moore, H.K., Mr J. K. Cowell, H.K.. Mr G. Drinkwater, J.P., Mr G. A. Ring (Chairman of the Douglas School Committee), and Mr J. W. Rymer, B.A. (head-master of the Higher Grade School). A number of teachers from different parts of the Island were also present, as well as others inter- ested in education, among them being Canon Moore, Canon Clarke, Rev. E. B. Savage, Mr E. T. Shepherd, Mr W. Potts, Mr L. L. VuUiamy, Mr J. Taylor, Capt. Reddicliffe, Mr G. Preston (Laiey), Mr T. Hudson, Mr Edmund Kerruish (Laxey), Mr R. J. Clague (Douglas), Mr P. Cadman, Mr T. Grindley, Mr E. Fennah, Mr A. J. Ridge, Mr D. M. Robertson, Mr W. Whitlaker, Mr J. E. Leece.and Mr W. M. Kerruish. The Chairman, in opening the proceedings, said : This is a meeting of the Commissioners appointed by the late Lieut-Governor, to inquire into secondary education, and we are holding this meeting for the purpose of taking evidence. In the first place, we are going to take the evidence of certain teachers who have been summoned.here to-day; and, in the second place, we are going to take the evidence of more general witnesses. It may be for the convenience of those present if I emphasise the point that we propose to take the teachers first. It is impossible to say how long that will take exactly, but the general witnesses will not be actually required before luncheon. I dare say, however, their presence will be very satis- factory to them as it is to us. We propose to take the evidence, first, of Mr Shepherd, of Castletown. I may say, generally, it is not the intention of the Commissioners to adminis- ter the oath to any of the witnesses, unless in any particular case it should seem essential to do so. We have got so full a report from the Teachers' Association, that I think we shall be able to curtfiil, to n considerable extent, the questions which it would otherwise be necessary to put to the teachers to-day. MR E. T. SHEPHERD'S EVIDENCE. Mr E. T. Shepherd was called. 1. — The Chairman: 1 should like to ask you a few questions, in the first place, with regard to the report which hijs been sent in to the Commission. I think you are here as Secretary of the Teachers' Association, which has given us a report dealing with the question in hand ? I want to ask a question, in the first place, with regard to technical and higher education. I am sorry to see from the report that you have sent to us, that you are not of opinion that there is a very general demand in the Island for technical education ? Witness: Do you expect me to answer that question with respect to my own district — Castletown and the South ? The Chairman: I think you might speak generally to begin with. Witness: It seems to the teachers to be a very difficult matter to get an expression of opinion at all on this subject. In many cases inquiries have leen made by letter to the parents of the children attending the elemen- tary schools. In the first instauce, on receipt of the form sent to the several Committees of the Isle of Man, I sent out the question from my own school, asking the parents if they desired a higher education than was given in the elementary schools. Most of the replies came in that they were satisfied. Many of the teachers received the same replies — that they were quite satisfied with the education given. The teachers themselves— at any rate those outside Douglas — are not satisfied with the education given. But the education that is given to-day in elementary schools far exceeds what was formerly given. 2 The Chairman : I would askyou generally — do you think the parents understand what we mean, when we speak of '' technical educa- tion f " Witness : I think there is a great deal of haziness on that question. In my own district MR B. T, SHEPHERD'S EVIDENCE. and others, we tried to get a meeting of the parents summoned by the Town Crier. There was very little response. They do not take any inteiest in it. If technical education is carried out at all, it will have to be done for them, I am afraid. In time, I believe, they really will be moulded as we like. 3. — The Chairman : Does not the existence of a Higher Grade School in Douglas a£Ford information ar, to the kind of instruction given in higher grade schools ? Witness : On that point, aa I have stated, it would be probably understood by the parents that such was the education meant. From various parts of the Island there are children who go to the Higher Grade School in Douglas, but of course the Higher Grade School is hardly advantageous on account of the distance. If they go there from Port St. Mary or Port Erin, they have to leave home at 7-15 in the morning, and return at about half- past six in the evening. It is such a waste of time, and such an expense to go to the Higher Grade School, that very few will go to it. 4. — The Chaieman : Will the information spread throughout the Island from Douglas as to the education in the Higher Grade School? Witness : I think it is not known to the parents generally. 5. — The Chairman : Is iti known that the fees charged in the Higher Grade School are not high ? Witness : Perhaps. On receiving a letter from the secretary of the Commissioners, asking that the teachers should gain infor- mation, I, acting on my own responsibility, sent out letters to the following effect : — " If a higher grade school, or department, were established in Castletown, would you be willing to send your son to such department or school ? The subjects taught might be mathematics, science (e.g., navigation, agriculture), wood- work, shorthand, type-writing, book-keeping, drawing, and music. If so, what fee would you be prepared to pay ? If an evening con- tinuation school were established, how many of your sons would attend, and what fee would they be able to pay ? " Out of fifty letters that I sent out, I received from 30 to 35 favourable replies. When I sent out simply the question — did they desire higher education? — they had not any idea what I meant; I only received seven or eight replies. When I defined the term, the answers were more numerous and more favourable. 6. — The Chairman : Those letters were sent to the parents of boys who were in the School? Witness : Yes. 7. — The Chairman : If information of a popular character were spread throughout the Island with regard to the meaning of technical education, do you think the desire for it, which at present you say is low, with regard to this matter, would increase ? Witness : I think it would be increased, though when I come to the last point — the question of fees — I find it mostly a matter of money. 8. — The Chairman : Do they say what fees they would be willing to give? Witness : Yes. they do. The fees named range from 2d per week to a shilling, bnt on an average they are from 4d to 6d per week. If we charge a higher fee it would not be well supported — at any rate, not in the south. 9. — The Chairman : What age would these children be ? Witness : From 12 to 14 years. 10. — The Chairman : Was any information given in the letter as to the age up to which hese parents would be willing to keep their hildren at school? Witness : I did not get the information definitely. I spoke to the boys on the subject, and gave them as tar as I could an idea of the thing. I told them it would not necessitate them leaving at 14, or at any age — they might stay on as long as their parents could afford. 11.— Mr EiNQ : The point is not what age they might go to, but to what age would the parents be willing to keep their children from work and pay for their education too ? Witness : I do not think there would be many kept at school above 15, at present. 12. — Mr Ring : What would you say, as a teacher, should be the limit of age for giving anything like secondary education ? Witness ; Tou mean by means of a Higher Grade School ? They would require to go up to 16 or 17. 13.— Mr Ring : Tou must have the three or four years' course ? Witness : Yes. Mr Ring : The minimum age would be 16. Witness : I do not think many parents could afford to keep their children to that age. 14. — Mr Kino : Would you think it of any practical value to attempt it, it you could not get children for a three years' course, after passing the sixth standard ? Witness : Many boys pass iut the sixth standard at 12 years of age. They are bound to keep them till 14, and most of the schools outside Douglas do not give any scientific instruction at all. 15. — The Chairman : The question has been put— does this Commission allow the appear- ance of the public ? I presume that means, do we allow their attendance in this room ? If it does mean that, I say — certainly, this is a public inquiry. (To the witness) : I asked you if any means could be taken for afferding popular information as to the object of secondary education. Could you suggest any means for doing so ? Witness : I think, perhaps, letters to the papers would be a very good means of giving information to the people. 16. — The Chairman : I suppose, answering my question generally, you would say, through the Press? Witness : I think so. 17.— The Rev. F. B. Walters : I should like to ask you what you mean yourself by secondary education, and what you expect these children to get from it ? Is it your idea that these boys should go in for technical subjects, or that they should be better equipped in regard to their general education ? We might try and give these boys a higher grade education tor three years, and turn them out into a different kind of life — make clerks of them instead of labourers, and so forth ; or, on the other hand. MR E. T. SHEPHERD'S EVIDENCE. we might wish to give them some little additional education on the literary side, which would help them to be a little more cultivated in thu lives they have to lead. What kind of benefit do you intend they should get from this secondary education ? Witness : It is not a very easy question. I have taken as the basis of my report and inquiries— what desire is there for higher educa- tion than is given in elementary schools ? In the country districts, the pupils in the elemen- tary schools do not get an elementary education equal to that which is given in Douglas, or in the big towns in England. Therefore, the education that would be secondary in these schools would not be considered secondary in a large town. Education is not only necessary to make our boys better equipped for their pursuits in later life, but also to give them an education in the ordinary sense of that word. 1 think there is a great desire on the part of parents that their children should be better equipped for their trades. 18.— The Rev. F. B. Walters : You think chey care more for the technical side ? Witness: Yes. 19.— The Chairman: Passing on to page 2 of the Teachers' Report, I observe you make a remark about the districts into which you think the Island should be divided for the purpose of secondary educa- tion. It seems to me that the Teachers' Association entirely agree with the Commis- sioners so far as they have gone in saying that there ought to be fo>ir centres for technical education ? Witness: Yes, First, Douglas, including Laiey ; second. Peel; third, Ramsey; fourth, Castletown. We think that is the easiest way of dividing the Island. 20. — The Chairman : Coming to the next remark you made, with respect to the impos- sibility of using the existing day schools for secondary education purposes, I presume you mean we could not use the present staff, or teach secondary education in the hours at present assigned to elementary education? Witness : In many cases the buildings could hardly be utilised. If there is only one room, jou would need at least a class room. 21. — The Chairman: But that is an unusual case ? Witness : I think it is a very ordinary state of things. 22. — Mr Ring : Most ordinary ; but is it not only a matter of constructing a sliding screen, in order to divide many of these large rooms ? Witness : A large number of them could be divided. 23 — Mr Ring : At small cost ? Witness : I think that rather presumes that the numbers would be the same. At present tho room only accommodates the children who are already in it. If we give higher-grade education we should require larger accommo- dation. 24. — The Chairman : I presume that remark must be added to what you have said in your report. You say we could not bring secondary education into the day- ■ chools, owing, first, to the elementary school curriculum being overcrowded ; and, secondly, to the inadequate staff to take up the subject ? Witness : Those would be the chief objec- tions. 25. — The Chairman : Bat you also raise an objection with regard to the construction of the buildings ? Witness: Inmost of the present buildings, at any rate in the south of the Island, I think it would be almost impossible to give the secondary education that is contemplated. 26. — The Chairman : Does your remark also apply to the evening continuation classes ? Witness : Oh, no. I think the school build- ings would be valuable for evening continua- tion classes. But in case of day-schools, I think they would need alteration, however, it not enlargement. 27- — The Chairman: Are the Commissioners to understand you are simply referring to the schools you know of, which are situated in the south of the Island ? Witness : Yes. 28. — Mr Ring : I do not think the object of the Commission, in asking for information on that head, was to limit the matter down to exist- ing circumstances. I look upon it in a much broader way — namely, whether by expenditure — either in adding a class-room, or in increas- ing the staff, it would be practicable to add a secondary branch to the ordinary elementary school, in lieu of establishing an independent centre for secondary education in the district. I should like to know whether you consider that is impracticable ? Witness : In the last communication I had from the secretary of the Commission, that was one of the points — could the elementary schools be utilised for this purpose, and what additions to staff and rooms would be required to give such education. 29- — Mr Ring : Supposing, for instance, in any district, owing to the population being scattered, it was found impossible to get the children up to the Higher Grade School, or to an establishment anything like a Higher Grade School — would it be a feasible scheme, by an additional outlay either on staff, or buildings, or otherwise, to raise the standard of education in the elementary schools — to give it a " secondary fringe," if I may use the expression — by encouraging the seventh and ex-seventh standard pupils, and so on ? Witness : I think I see your point. In the Castletown boys' school, which is a new school, I think it could be managed; but I do not think it could be managed in other schools as they exist at present. As to any additions which might be made to fit them for the desired purpose, the numbers do not warrant us in giving an opinion. 30. — Mr Ring : Supposing, as you say, you got 35 favourable replies out of 50 — 70 per cent— in a district where you had not a building as good as Castletown, would you con- sider it advisable to provide for that demand for a higher education by spending money, in connection with the existing elementary schools, for building, staff, or apparatus? Witness : Yes ; I think so. 31.— The Rev. F. B. Walters: I do not quite understand that first objection to using MR E. T. SHEPHERD'S EVIDENCE. the existing day schools. When you refer to the already crowded state of the elementary schools' curriculum— you mean you could not put secondary education on top of the other ? Witness : Not with the same teachers. 32— The Kev. F. B. Walters : Then it is really included in the second objection — the inadequacy of the staff and the buildings ? Witness : Yes. 33.— The Rev. F. B. Walters: If those poiots were attended to, then you could do it ? Witness : Yes ; we could do it then. 34— The Rev. F. B. Walters: And you could have both higher and elementary educa- tion going on together ? Witness : Yes. 35.— The Chairman: With regard to peri- patetic teachers— ^ subject to which you also refer inthis report, I see you disapprove of them generally, but you make an exception in respect of teachers of cookery — you say they might be peripatetic. Do you mean to say that you might not have agricultural instruction and instruction in navigation given by peripatetic teachers ? (No answer.) If you haa the building enlarged, and made suitable for every subject in which they might give instruction — you would not olijeet to them ? Witness : I think if we had the buildings enlarged, and the staff increased also, we could combine in the members of the staff teachers able to give the necessary instruction. Members of the staff might teach most of the subjects. 36.— The Chaibman : I think I am right in saying that cookery is now taught in element- ary schools? Witness: No; in Douglas only. Douglas is, so far, in advance of the country districts. 37. — The Chairman : Cookery is taught in the elementary hchools in Douglas ? Witness : Yes. Elementary Education gen- erally is backward in the Isle of Man. Mr Ring: It is a subject in all the Board Schools in Douglas. There are more than 300 girls in the town receiving instruction in cookery. Witness : The difficulty in the outside dis- tricts is that they have not got money to work on. Committees are not willing to spend money on education. Mr Ring : As a matter of fact the teaching of cookery nearly pays with the present grant. 38. — The Rev. F. B. Walters : You consider there are other objections to peripatetic teachers. May I ask what the other objections are? Witness: In many cases, we have had some practice with peripatetic teachers coming into the school. They give a lecture once a week, or a course of lectures in the season — 13 or so. We find much of the work has to be re-done by the teachers themselves in the school hours. It is the teachers who have to bear the burden of the work. They would prefer to combine in their own staff teachers able to teach these subjects. If they could not do so, of course t'hey would have to have peripatetic teachers coming in. 39. — Mr Ring : You mean it would be pre- ferable to have a permanent teacher, instead of 4 peripatetic teacher ? Witness : Yes. 40. — Mr Ring : I think we would agree with that. There is no other objection — is there? Witness : No. 41. — The Chairman : Now we come to page 3 of the report. You speak to us of evening continuation schools, and leave the Commission to take the view that, in your opinion, evening continuation schools are the chief means to which we must look for giving secondary education in the country districts? Witness : Yes, I think so — especially in the country districts. Most of the children who would be able to take up this education would really have to go to work as soon as they were able to make themselves useful. Evening continuation schools would be the means to take them to any age whatever. Most of the parents want their children to go out and earn as much as possible when they have reached the age of 14. 42 — The Chairman : Your curriculum in the public elementary schools is already bo full, and the buildings so inadequate, and the staff so small, that you think it is hopeless to get any secondary subjects taught in the present public elementary schools, and that your hope is evening continuation classes? Witness ; Under present conditions, we suggest that that would be the case; but if wa could have extra class-rooms, and extra staff, then the work could be done. But, without that, continuation schools would have to be left to bear the brunt. 43- — The Chairman : Have you cnme to any conclusion whether it would be desirable, with extra staff and buildings, to undertake secondary education in school hours, or in evening continuatioH classes ? Witress: I think if we could take both means it would be desirable. If we couM take the boys that have passed standard si-t, they might stay two years, or even three years, and we could give them a little higher education in the elementary schools; and those boys who had passed their standards, or attained the age of ]4, and whose parents wanted thera to go to work, would be able to take advantage of the evening continuation schools. 44. — Mr Geo. Drinkwater: Suppose you limit it to evening continuation schools — to what ages would you limit the instruction ? Witness : It Is not limited at all. 45. — Mr Geo. Dri.nkwater: Assuming that it is unlimited, would you find room for different ages going on at the same time ? Witness : Probably you could not have more than three or four classes going, the same as you have in the day-schools at present. I think it would be equally pnclioable to take several classes in the evening continuation schools. 46. — Mr G. Drinkwater : Would you con- sider the education more suitable for children just leaving the elem 'Utary schools, or would you give education to older people? Witness : Well, part of the education is suitable for children who are just on the eve of leaving school ; a great part of it would be useful to children who have left. For instance, take girls who have left — it would be very useful to teach those girls cookery and domestic economy, which they have not learned at the day-schools in days gone by. MR E. T. SHEPHERD'S EVIDENCE. 47- — M'' C". Dbinkwateb : Supposinjj you teach a lit>i;iry education, that is one thing; but supposing you are goint; to instruct people in the country in aijrieultnral pursuits, that is a totally different branch, I rather doubt whether you would get children who are leav- ing school to attend to agricultural matters. The age wlien they would be likely to attend most earnestly would be about 18, perhaps. Witness : That would be the awe for them to attend, as regards the technical part of agriculture. 48- — Mr G. Drinkwater : Do you think you could maniige to continue elementary education, and also to give technical education at the same time, in the same rooms? Witness; We might vary in our ideas of technical education. There could not be any wood-worfcin?. 49 — The Chairman : There is a paragraph on page 3 of the report, with regard to evening continual ion schools : — " The teacher's suggest that continuation schools should be opened to all day scholars who have passed Standard 6, and to all others, of whatever age, on payment of a small fee." Does not that condition stultify the other ? 50. — Mr Ring: Does not the new Code make it wider? Witness : Yes. 51. — Mr Ring : Do the teachers intend to make this more exclusive than the Code does If Standard 5 is the standard named by the Code— you don't want it to be less comprehen- sive ? Witness : No ; I do not want to make it less comprehensive. 52. — Mr Ring (to witness) : Talking about evening continuation classes, do you think that> having regard to the distance of the children's homes in the rountry, from the schools, the night schools are likely to be a success? Witness : The distances would certainly militate against the system ; but yet in the four towns I think evening continuation schools could be established, but not in every school district. 53 — Mr Ring : Still they might be very generally applied in the country ? Witness : Yes. 54- — The Rev F. B. Walters : Do you con- sider that the teachers in the elementary schools are able to undertake the work of the evening continuation schools, considering what the day's work is ? Witness : It would be difiBcult, especially in the Isle of Man, to find men outside the teacbing profession who are able to teach scholars. 'leaching itself requires piactice. and we are supposed to be trained to our profession. I do not think the schools would be quite as successful, unless they were taught by trained teachers. If it would be for the benefit of the children themselves, I believe the teachers would be willing to take up the evening schools. If we had an expert staff in our day schools, of sufficient strength, that would be the best plan. 55-— The Rev F. B. Walters: But the present staff would find it hard ? Witness : Yes, the present staff would find it very hard. Though, in Castletown, I expect I shall have to do it myself. The Rev. F; B. Walters : I know it is a hard day's work. Witness : There would be very few people willing to undertake it. 56.— The Rev. F. B. Walters: But all points to the need ot an increased staff? Witness : Yes, that is the great difficulty. The Chaikman : On page 4 cf your report, you say that, as a body, you do not advocate an elaborate or finished scheme at present, but an embryo which would develop itself into an elaborate systiJui, the teachers being of opinion that it will be some little time before the majority of the public v;ill give any scheme of secondaiy education its decided support, and they think that the starting of a Higher Grade School in each town would probably meet the case at present. Witness : I think that is a very good sum- mary of the views of the teachers. 57- — The Chairman: A:;cording to that^ wh at you seem to want is a Higher Grade School in Castletown? Witness : The numbeis do not warrant us to recommend the scheme ot establishing a Higher Grade School, but a department might be worked. There might be forty or fifty pupils, which would not be enough for a Higher Grade School, though it might put a higher grade top to an elementary school, 58 — Mr Ring : In Castletown you have the College, where provision might be made. It is only a matter of arranging the fees, and so on. Supposing arrangements could be made with the Trustees, would not that be the best way to deal with Castletown ? Witness : The lowest fee charged to pupils at the College is eight guineas. The fees would be a very serious matter. Very few parents would give higher than lOs. per term. There is a great difference. The great desire seems to be for the technical part of education. 1 do not know that the College is chiefly tech- nical ; it is rather literary, though it has a technical side. The Chairman : I think we must not go into the requirements of Castletown in detail to-day. We shall be going to Ramsey, Peel, and Castletown. Personally, T do not think I have anything more to ask Mr Shepherd, but other members may have. 59- — Mr Ring (to witness): In this report, you recommend a Higher Grade School in each of the towns. I suppose the same remarks will apply to all the towns — it is a matter of whether or not it will be supported ? Witness: Yes; that is the great matter. In regard to providing funds, I found that people were very unwilling that they should be taken out of local rates. I found a great objection to pay more rates for education. 60 — Mr Ring : But you said there was some willingness to pay additional fees ? Witness : There are some who are willing to pay additional fees. 61. — Mr Ring : They would not mind if they were assisted by rates ? Witness: They do not seem to like the idea of putting anything further on the rates. There is a sixpenny rate in Castletown already. The teachers feel that it should be done from the Insular Revenue. (Laughter). MR WM. POTTS EVIDENCE, 62-— Mr Q. Dbinkwateb: Do they realise that it is practically the same thing ? Witness : I do not think so. 63 — Mr Etmeb : Do you think that in a school of your size one separate certificated teacher for standards 7 and ex-7 would be able to give a secondary education that would be appreciated, and that would meet the case in one of the smaller towns ? \Vitness : In many cases he would. We could get a certificated teacher who would be qualified to take up many subjects. In our own scliools some of our own teachers have taken degrees, and have passed examinations of various descriptions, and are able themselves to take these extra subjects. If we had a teach'^r who was able to lake up some of these subjects, tben I think we could do a great deal towards providijg technical education in our day-schools. 64.— Mr EiNQ : You mean that you could take a more technical side ? Witness : In some cases we could. 65- — Mr EiNQ : I mean that you could go on with manual instruction, besides the other curriculum ? Witness: Many of the teachers could rake manual instruction. One lady in the south is qualified to take cookery. 66. — Mr G. Drinkwater: I want to ask a few questions about finance. Have you con- sidered the cost of a Higher Grade School in each town ? Witness : I do not think we have considered that matter. 67- — MrG.DRiNKWATEE: As long as it comes out of the Insular Revenue, I suppose they would not eare what it would cost ? Witness : I do not think people would mind so much, but tbey do object to the rates being increased. They tliink tbey are heavy enough. 68. — Mr G. Drinkwater : Would it be possible to get higher fees from pupils attend- ing the Higher Grade School, so as to make it self-supporting? Wituess : I am not quite able to answer that question. I do not know tbat it would be self- supporting. 69.— Mr G. Drinkwater : Would it be practicable to develop a scheme by which the children of poorer persons in the elemen- tary schools might be helped by scholarships to the Higher Grade School, or a technical school ? Witness : I think that would be a very good means — to give scholarships from the elementary schools to the Higher Grade School, or to the Higher Grade Department, if children whose parents were unable to afford it were helped to afford it. 70- — Mr G. Drinkwater : What I am asking is, whether you think it possible to induce pareuts sending their children to the Higher Grade Schools, to pay sufficient lo support them — except in the case of poorer children, who would have scholarships ? Witness : The average fee is about sixpence per week, and that would not support them. 71. — Mr G. Drinkwater: Would you limit the scholarships to poor persons, or would you leave them to open competition ? Witness : In many cases I think there would be no limitations; but the scholarships would go to a number of tried youths coming from the Board Schools. It it were left perfectly open, it would be wise. 72. — Mr G. Drinkwater : You suggest that there should be an engineering sct.ool in Douglas — would that be in addition to the present Higher Grade School? Witness : Yes. Mr King : There is nothing of the kind in the Higher Grade School at all. Witness : I think it would be a separate building altogether. This concluded the examination of Mr Shepherd. MR WILLIAM POTTS' EVIDENCE. 73. — The Chairman: Perhaps it would be the most convenient plan if I were just to enumerate the five chief points on which Mr Shepherd has given evidence to us, and ask Mr Potts if, in any respect, he wishes to add to or vary from what Mr Shepherd has said, and then take him more generally. In the first instance, it seems to me that we have been inquiring as to the demand for higher education on the part of the parents, and the fees they would be willing to pay ; secondly, as to the possibility of utilising tho existing elementary school buildings for sioondary education, or introducing secondary educa- tion into the present curriculum ; thirdly, the advisability of employing peripatetic teachers ; fourthly, scholarships; and, lastly, the sum- mary of the report, which is given on page 4. You are the head mas'er of the Cloth Workers School, Peel ? Witness: I am. 74 — The Chairman : Have you any'hing to add to what Mr Shepherd has said with reference to the demand of parents, and their willingness to pay fees ? Witness : I do not think there is any demand whatever, in the country districts, and only a little in Peel. 75.— The Chairman : That rather varies from the report you have sent in. Out of 50 inquiries made, I think you said 35 were favourable. Witness: I am using the word " d^-mand" perhaps in a more literal sense. Until the question had been put before the parents, I do not think the teachers had been approached on the subject. The initiation of the move- ment came from the Commissioners, and not from the parents. I have heard desires ex- pressed since, but there is nothins; like a demand. 76- The Chairman : Are you of the same opinion as Mr Shepherd, that if the subject was brought bef(jre them, and explained to them more fully, the demand would increase? Witness : I think it would. 77. — The Chairman: Can you suggest any means of doing that ? Witness : I would suggest keeping the matter before the public through the Press, and also getting good speakers and enthusi- astic men to go throughout the Island several times during the next w nter, and try to MR WM. POTT'S' EVIDENCE. create that public opinion nhich do«8 not exist at present. 78. — The Chairman : What is your opinion with respect to the willingness to pay fees? I suppose it is goTerned by the matter we have been discussing. If there is no demand, there wnuld be no willingness to pay fees? Witness; No. 79.— The Chairman : lou think that might be created if information were disseminated ? Witness t Very few people would pay a fee exceeding sixpence per weelt. 80. — I'he Chairman : In Douglas, I finme town centre — except agriculture and navigation. 156. — The Chairman : 'I'hen your view is that subjects requiring apparatus should be taught at centres? ■Witness: Quite so. 157. — The Chairman: You think that other secondary subjects could bo taught at evening continuation schools? Witness : Yes ; I think so. 158. — Mr CovPELL: When were these night schools conducted by you — lately ? Witness : Three winters ago. 159.— Mr CowELL: What was the usual school fee ? Witness : The charge at the last evening school 1 had was one shilling for the session. 160. — Mr CowELL : Then you really did it for the love of the work, and not for the pay ? Witness : I did not receive any pay, as a matter of fact. 161. — Mr CowBLL : I notice you speak of a general desire for higher education. How is it, if there is that desire, in your district they do not take advantage of the Douglas Higher Grade School? Witness : It is a question of distance, and we have no convenience in the way of trains. 162. — Mr CowELL : What is the distance? Witness : The distance from my school- house, or from the lower end of the district, is about four miles. The Chairman : You may say five miles, generally. Witness : Yes ; more than that if you con- sider the nature of the district. Mr Cowell: That is the reason they do not take advantage of the Douglas schools? Witness : It is an awkward district for that. 163 — Mr Kino : Have yon sent out any circulars to ascertain the wish of the people — the wish of parents— as to higher education, and the fees they would be prepared to pay ? Witness : I adopted three different methods to ascertain that. 1 mentioned the subject at a public meeting which took place one evening at Baldwin. Mr CowELL : Called for that purpose ? Witness : No ; I was giving an address on a cognate subject, and I took the opportunity of introducing this subject. Then I wrote letters in the same way as Mr Potts, and each child took a letter home and brought an answer. I took the opportunity, too, of discussing the matter with gentlemen in the neighbourhood. 164. — Mr Ring : Can you remember the effect of the answers you received to the letters you sent to the parents ? Witness : The answers were to the same effect as those received by Mr Potts. 165. — Mr King: Uan you tell us the result? Witness : The result is given in my report, embodied in the report of the Association, which has been handed in. There wore 34 affirmative answers. MR HUDSON'S EVIDENCE. Mr T. Hudson, schoolmaster at Foxdale, was the nest witness. 166. — The Chaibman : Coming first of all to the question of the demand for higher educa- tion aod the willingness of parents to pay fees, do you agree with Mr Quayle, or with those who take a less favourable view ? Witness : I think there is little or no demand at present. 167.— The Chairman: Do you think that if more information was spread the demand would grow proportionately ? Witness : I think there is some desire for technical education, and a further desire couJd be created by various means. 168. — The Chairman: What have you to say to the Commissioners in regard to those means ? Witness : " The sight of means to do certain deeds oft makes those deeds done," and if the means for technical education were within reach of the public they would avail themselves of them, especially in our neighbourhood. 169, — The Chairman : But what means should be adopted for the spread of secondary education — do you think by lectures or by the Press ? Witness : I think the Press should be utilised, and also lectures, and by the teachers talking upon the subject to the scholars of the upper classes, who would take the infor- mation home to their parents. 170. — The Chairman : Then, as to the willingness of the parents to pay fees for higher education? Witness : At present, I think the fees should be paid out of the revenue. Mr Quayle, I see, thinks that technical education ought to be confined to the towns. I disagree with him there entirely ; I think it ought not to be con- fined to the towns. 171.— The Chairman: I think MrQuayle's opinion is that teaching of subjects requiring elaborate apparatus should be confined to towns. Mr RiNQ : Not confined to towns, but to centres. Witness : Technical education requiring elaborate apparatus should, in my opinion, be taught at centres, and other subjects of higher education at evening continuation schools. In our neighbourhood (Foxdale) nearly all the young men, when they reach the age of 17 o 18, go to South Africa, America, or Australia. Very many of the boys go there. We do not have a wedding ottener than about once in two or three years, and so the population must be decreasing. Technical education would be of great use to these young men who go abroad. For instance, in a newly settled country or district he may want a chair or a stool or a table, and be placed in an awkward position if he is not able to make these things himself, or even to 12 ME T. HUDSON'S EVIDENCE. put up a tent. Technical instruction is very much wanted in Poxdale I think. 172. — The Chairman: Having regard to the subjects coming under 'he head of secondary education, you think these are chiefly in demand in Foxdale and other mining parts of the Island, do you agree that th« present buildings are not suitable for giving such instruction ? Witness : Not during the day. They could, with the permission of the managers, be utilised during the evening. I have only one room. 173. — Mr Cowell: Have you no class-room? Witness : No. 174 —Rev. F. B. Walters : What number of Boholais have vou ? Witness ; 70 to 80. 175.— Mr Etmeb: Do the young women go abroad ? Witness ; No, only the young men go abroad when they are 17 or 18. 176.— Mr Rtmer : What age do they leave school ? Witness : Some leave at 14. 177. — Mr EiNO : Your school is free, of course? Witness : Tes. 178 —Mr Ring : Do you think the parents would be willing to keep the children at a school a longer time than at present supposing some provision was made for better education ? Witness : I would not like to say very much on that point. 179. — Mr EiNG : You speak of technical education : do you know of any desire for it amongst parents or childrt-n ? Witness. Young men have said tome, "I wish I could do as you do." MrRiNo: What is that? Witness : I have made half my own furni- ture. I sometimes bind my own books, and I mend my own shoes. I do not make new shoes, but I repair the old ones. 180.— Mr Ring : Have you formed classes to give education of that description ? Witness: Not of that description. I have tried evening classes for teaching elementary subjects, and they have been a failure. 181.— Mr Ring: If you think this form of education so beneficial, and ycu are so com- petent to teach it, why not try it ? Witness : It is a matter of expense. Mr EiNa: But teaching is not the chief expense. Witness : I have not really asked the School Committee whether they would find the neces- sary tools ; whether they would be willing to find the necessary implements to carry on classes of this sort I do not know. 182.— Mr Drinkwatek: Could you carry on such classes in addition to such work as you have in the day time ? Witnees : Not in the day time ; but in the evening I could undertake such classes. 183.— The Chairman: Do you think the kind of industrial instruction that would be most acceptable to your district could be carried on by means of evening continuation classes in the parish or at some centre, say Peel, which is the centre of your district ? Witness : No doubt it would be better given at a centre if you could get the young people to attend ; but Peel, I think, is not the most convenient centre for our part, but St. John's. 184. — Mr Drinkwatek : Would the miners working in shifts be able to attend evening classes ? Witness : Those on the morning shift would be able to attend, but those in the afternoon shift, worlring from 2 o'clock till 10 p.m., would not be able to. There are not many at present working on the night shift, from 10 o'clock p.m. till 6 a.m. 185.— Mr CowELL : Foxdale is the chief mining industrial centre in the Isle of Man ? Witness : Y^es. 186. — Mr CowKLL: Do you know, of your own knowledge, what the career of these lads is when they leave the Island ? Witness : I often get letters and newspapers from them. Mr CowELL : How would you say they succeed generally ? Witness : Fairly well, I think. 1S7. — Mr CoWELL : You think that if they were to receive a superior education to that which they now receive it would increase their earning power, not only as miners, but in other ways ? Witness : Well, of course the more you educate men, the better workmen they become. There is good material in Foxdale. Captain Kitto, who has had miners under him from all parts, said he never met with a more intelligent class of miners than they are at Foxdale. Mr CowELL : What I want to get at is whether yon think that those who have tech- nical knoivledge are likely to rise to a much better position than that of a common mind? Witness : I believe so. 188. — Mr CowKLL: Do you know any boys from Foxdale who have taken a good position? Witness : There is a family living next door to myself that have all done fairly well, and others from this neighbourhood who are in good positions. Some took up engineering work. Of course, they were not taught that in school, except in the way of object lessons. My aim is to get boys to use their brains so as to utilise their knowledge, otherwise they will not turn their knowledge to account in after years. 189 — Mr Drinkwater: Would scholar- ships assist you ? Witness : I dare say they would. At present three lads from our neighbourhood attend the Douglas Higher Grade School. They have to leave their homes at seven o'clock in order to catch the first train. I think scholarships would be beneficial to Foxdale — I have not the least doubt of it. 190. — Mr MooBE : Supposing a similar school was established at Peel, would that be much more largely attended from Foxdale ? Witness : Not much ; St. John's would be a much more suitable centre. 191. — The Chairman: Is there any other point upon which you have information to give to us? Witness : I consider the peripatetic teacher should be held responsible for his own work, instead of the head master being held respon- sible. If he takes up a subject that ths regular MK A. J. RIDGE'S EVIDENCE. 13 teacher does not understnnd, or understand so well, he should be held responsible for the work he underliikes to do. Then there would be no friction between the head teacher and the peripatetic teacher. SIR A. J. EIDGE'S EVIDENCE. After an interval of an hour for luncheon, Mr A. J. Uidge, headmaster of Thomas-street Douglas Wesleyan school, and formerly head- master of Peel school, gave evidence. 192. — The Chairman : What have you to say as to the demand for higher education in the Island ? Witness : I would like to suy I only received during this week the notice to attend here, so 1 am not able to give such satisfactory evidence as I should like to have done, but, so far as my eiperienee goes, 1 have found in Douglas a desire foi'f urther education, mainly of a techni- cal character, and such as would furnish young fellows with suitable instruction to serve them when they go abroad. 198.— The CuAiKMAN : That answer applies to the Douglas district. You do not intend the remai'k to apply to the whole Island ! Witness : I think it does apply to the Island generally, but to the town particularly. 194 -The Chairman : Are you of opinion that the demand is more widespread than some have represented it to be this morniug ? Witness : No; I do not think the demand is much outside Douglas, but I think the recent opening of the Higher Giade school at Douglas has made people think more about higher education, such as would fit them for good posi- tions in life. I am acquainted myself with a smith belonging to Douglas, and who is now at Johannesburg, earning jESO to .£35 a month, his board and lodging costing d£7to ^8 a month. He writes home to say how he wishes he had had a course of engineering when he was at home, as, though he was doing well aa a smith, be was sure he should then have done better still. 195 — The Chairman: Do you think the public of the Isle of Man are beginning to take the view that such an education would be an advantage to young men going abroad? Witness : I do. 196 — The Chairman : You think the more the advantages of secondary education become known, the more the desire and demand for such education will increase ? Witness ; I do. 197- — The Chairman : But at present you think the demand is not great? Witness : I think young fellows find out its advantages too late. 198. — The Chairman : But that remark refers to those who go abroad. Have you any- thing to say as to the willingness of parents to pay fees for higher education? Witness : I believe in Douglas they are willing to pay a reasonable fee. 199— Mr Moore : What would you define as a reasonable fee ? Witness : That depends upon the instruction given. 200. — The Chairman: In regard to utilising the buildings, are you of the same opinion as the majority,that the present elementary school buildings are not suitable for giving instruction in secondary education subjects ? Witness : I am of that opinion. 201 —The Chairman : Have you anything to say as to peripatetic teachers? If the peri- patetic treacher was held entirely responsible for the results of his own teaching, instend of the head teacher being held responsible, do you think in that way the cause of friction would be removed ? Witness: Yes, I think the head teacher ought not to be held responsible for the results of the peripatetic teacher's work, one way or the other. 202. — The Chairman: With that provision, ycu think there would be no objection to the employment of peripatetic teachers? Witness : No. 203.— The Chairman : What about evening continuation schools? Do you think them the best means of imparting knowledge on the sub- jects we have in view when we speak of secondai'y education '! Do you think the teaching should be in central higher grade schools — in four districts, as enumerated this morning — or do you favour continuation schools in each locality? Witness : Continuation schools, as contem- plated uuder the Code, do not provide for secondary education. The Chairman : We must utilise them for that purpose. Do you think continuation schools the most suitable means for imparting such education ? Witness : I do not see how it would come in. Mr Ring: Not secondary education ? Witness : No. Mr Ring : Then you differ from the great body of those wI,o have given evidence on the subject. 204 —The Chairman : I think I am right in saying that the teachers, who have given evi- dence before you, have said that evening con- tinuation schools are a good means of imparting education on secondary subjects in country districts? Witness : Yes, in country districts ; but in a place like Douglas there should be, I think, a building for instruction in engineering, and for strictly technical subjects, such as working in wood and iron. I think the Douglas School of Art might be utalised for the art side of tech- nical education, svich as machine drawing ; and another building might be devoted to instruction of a more strictly industrial character. 205. — The Chairman : In what you say, please distinguish between Douglas and the other parts of the Island. Witness: I am speaking of Douglas. 206. — MrEiNQ: What is your idea of the subjects that should be taken in the additional building? Witness : Well, practical engineering. 207.— Mr Ring : Do you mean taking over the existing Department ? Witness : Well, I suppose the Science and Art Department will provide for that. 208. — Mr Ring : Then you were going to give the subjects t 14 MR J. E. LEECE'S EVIDENCE. Witness : Such subjects as work in iron and brass.machine construction, engineering — both in reference to sea and land. 209. — Mr EiNa : Do you mean a regular scbool of eUi ineering? Witness : Yes, with shops and tools. 210. — Mr King : To make a school of en- gineering would require a large building, a building by itself ? Witness : Yes, my idea of such a school is to prepare young fellows for going abroad. 211. — Mr EiNU : Are you prepared to give any figures as to how many young men would be likely to go in for engineering ? Witness : I said before, I Know men who have gone to South Africa, and their regret is that they have not had a course of instruction in mining, so that they might do better. 212 — Mr EiNQ : I quite understand that ; but what I want to get at is, what ground you have for thinking that it is all within the scope of practical politics to have a school for teaching engineering ? Witness : Simply from my conversation with townspeople. 213 — MrEiNQ: You know nothing about the number that would probably avail them- selves of sucb a school ? Witness : No ; my opinion is that it is a felt " want " 214. — MrEiNO : You have not gone into the question of cost ? Witness : No. Mr RiNn : How much per head it would take? Witness : No, not at all. Mr EiNO : A school of engineering must take a large sum per annum, to say nothing about the original cost; probably the whole sum we should get in the Island as a grant. Witness: I think many subjects might be taken in a place of that kind. Mr King : Not in a scbool of engineering. You have not elaborated any scheme. All you mean to say is that many young men going abroad from here would be better if they had a better education. However anxious we may be to give them an education, we have to consider the limited means, and what can best be done with the means at our disposal. Witness : I have only taken the subject up in conversation. 215. — Mr Etmeb : Do you not think that what you have in view could be more practically met by exhibitions to Salford Technical Scbool, where they have an income of something like jEIO.OOO ? Witness : Possibly ; but my idea was to find opportunities for instruction for young fellows already apprenticed. ME LEECE'S EVIDENCE. Mr J. E. Leece, of St. Thomas' School, Douglas, next offered himself for examination. 216. — The Chairman : I believe there is a special point or two on which you wish to say a word, in regard to the need for secondary education for pupil teachers ? Witness : In the main I agree with the evidence of the teacbera who have preceded me. I have a few remarks to make as to voluntary teachers. In my opinion, one of the most important parts of secondary educa- tion is efficient teaching of pupil teachers. Mr Leece here produced some manuscript which be was about to read, as embodying his ideas upon the subject; but, at the request of the Chairman, he, without reading it, handed it to the Secretary, so tbat the Commissioners might afterward.i refer to it. The CHiiEMAN: If there is any statement you wish to make verbally, in regard to any point, we should be glad it you would make it. Witness : At the present time in Douglas there are central classes for pupil teachers under the School Board which ';he pupil teachers in voluntary schools are debarred from attending. 217. — The Chairman : The first point, in regard to which you have something to say, as I uudarstand, is the need of secondary educa- tion for pupil teachers in voluntary schools. Do you make a distinction between voluntary schools and Board schools? Witness : What I want to point out is, that teachers in the Board Schools at Douglas have, in these central classes, advantages which the teachers in voluntary schools and country schools have not. Mr EiNO : Some six months ago the School Board of Douglas started central classes for pupil teachers, instead of O'ch head teacher takinor the whole of his pupil teachers on all subjects. The School Board desired the teachers in voluntary schools, as far as possi- ble, to come into the arrangement; but, of course, it was difficult to arrange the propor- t'onate expense to be borne by tlie voluntary schools participating in the arrangement. The School Board have found that, under this system, there is an undesirable strain on the pupil teachers, and they are, therefore, re- organising it. What, they now have under consideration is the establishing of a centre, and appointing one teacher who shall have no other work to do, and pupil teachers shall go here a certain number of days a week, accord- ing to the years of their apprenticeship; and during these days they shall have no teaching to do. I know that, so far as the Douglas School Board are concerned, they intend that these classes shall be thrown open to the teachers of voluntary schools ; but, of course, the volun- tary schools whose pupil teachers avail them- selves of these classes, would have to bear a proportionate share of the expense, 218 — The Chairman : All this is very in- teresting, but I do not see how it applies so far as this inquiry is concerned. Do you (address- ing the witness) wish to say anything about cookery classes and manual training ? Mr Eing: These subjects are already taught in elementary schools. Witness : I take it that cookery and manual instruction are secondary subjects. There are central classes for teaching these subjects in Douglas, which, I think, seeing they are supported by the ratepayers, should not ba confined to any particular section, but should be thrown open to pupils and teachers of the voluntary schools, as well as of Board schools. Mr CowELL : What do you propose ? MR G. WHITTAKEE'S EVIDENCE. 15 Witness : I propose that there should be a body like the Board of Education, having centres where all voluntary schools could send pupils to cookery classes, and for manual instruction, apart from the School Board. Mr King : You know that, in regard to cookery, Douglas is the only place where it is taught, and you know that they take scholars from the voluntary schools at the cookery centre. Witness : As far as they are able. Mr EiNQ : The fact is that there is only one teacher, and they can't meet the demand for admission to these classes. Witness : Yes, that is so. 219. — The Chairman : Are you going to argue from this that it is desirable that cookery and manual Irainingshould be taught under the head of secondary education, or are you going to argue that a special effort should be made to teach them in public elementary schools, includin,' voluntary schools ? If you are going to argue the need of secondary education in respect to cookery and manual training, and that these subjects should be taught in volun- tary as well as in Board schools, I think it would be in order for us to enter into the ques- tion to-day, but if you are going to argue that voluntary schools should be distinguished from Board schools in teaching these as elementary subjeets, then I do not think the question comes under our cognizance. Witness : I would like to argue it under the first head. What I would suggest is, that some body like *he Roard of Education should take the control of a centre which could be attended by scholars from all elementary voluntary schools, apart from the School Board. At present it is impossible for voluntary schools to have a centre for teaching cookery. 220. — Mr Dbinkwater : What you mean is that the opportunities of pupils to learn cookery should be extended? Witness : Yea, for scholars and teachers. The Chairman : We will take note of that. 221. — Witness : I do not know whether it comes strictly under the head of secondary education, but I consider that in Manx schools there ought to be some suitable books for teach- ing the geology and geography of the Island, its history and constitution. The book should give an account of Manx worthies, and the best poems written by Manxmen, and then our youths would learn something of their Island home. Mr MooBE : It is an excellent idea. Witness : No doubt it might have been carried out before, only the Island is so small, and the sale of books so small that a subsidy would be necessary. 322. — Mr EiNG: You are advocating a centre in the town of Douglas for teaching cookery, and I suppose laundry work and dressmaking for gii Is, and wood work, and so forth, for boys under the South Kensington School? Witness : Yes The Chairman; Your views on this subject are expressed in the paper you have handed in Witness : Yes. The Chairman : Well, they shall receive consideration. 223. — Mr Ring ; How do you propose the centre should be supported ? Witness : Out of the revenue. Mr Ring : Entirely out of the revenue, and not as the result of examinations ? Witness : Certainly as the result of exam- inations; but the grants should be paid out of the revenue, and not out of the rates. 224. — Mr Eing: Looking at the subjects that would be taken, it may be supposed that the grants would not amount to much under the existing provisions, and jou want more grants I suppose ? Witness : Yes. 225.— Mr Ring: What about fees, do you propose to charge any fees ? Witness : No, 1 think not. 226. — Mr Ring : It would have to be for all the children in the town. Do you mean the centre would be one in union with the Board School ? Witness : Well, if the School Board co- operate, so much the better ; then that would put all on the same footing. 227. — Mr Co WELL : Do I understand you to say, in regard to these centres of education, that you do not propose to make any charge ? Witness : Yes 228 — Mr Drinkwater: You do not mind it c.Tming out of the Insular revenue; but you do not like it coming out of the rates? Witness : The voluntary schools cannot participate in the rates at present. 229- — Mr Eing : Havo you any figures as to the cost of such a centre as you propose f Witness : No ; but you, as Chairman of the School Board, would have. Mr Ring : Yes, I have a good idea of the cost; but 1 wanted to know whether you have gone into it ? Witness: No; I have not. MR. G. WHITTAKEE'S EVIDENCE. Mr G. Whittaker, head master of Drumgold- street Temporary Board School, next came forward as a witness. 230.— Mr Eing : You have conducted even- ing classes under the Code for three years ? Witness : Yes. 231. — Mr Ring : Can you tell us the terms on which these classes were conducted 2 Witness : The agreement between myself and the Committee was that I should receive the grant earned by the school, the fees obtained from the scholars, and also a bonus of £5 from the Committee. 232.— Mr Eing : What does the Committee pay for ? Witness : They give rooms, fire, gas, and have the cleaning done. 233- — Mr Ring : What about stationery.*" Witness : The Committee provide all the stationery. 234i. — Mr Eing : What fees are charged? Witness : 2d and 4d per week. 235. — Mr Ring : How are the fees arranged ? Witness : Those who take merely elementary subjects pay 2d per wetk, and those taking higher subjects 4d. 236.— Mr Ring: The Committee had a veto as to fees ? 16 MR G. WHITTAKER'S EVIDENCE. Witness: Yes, the Committee had'control of the fees, regulating them. Some of the scliohirs were allowed to come free. 237.— Mr RiNO : Did the Committee pay for them? ■Witness : Tos, if they asked the Committee for free education in the evening classes, they were nllowed to come free. 23S —Mr CovTELL : Did they demand the teachii)-; free, or did they put it on the ground that tliey could not afford to pay ? Witness : Thty had to satisfy the Committee that they could not pny, and then the Com- mittee paid. 289 — Mr RiNO : Can you give us an average of the attendance in the three winters that you held the classes ? "Witness : The averags attendance for the first year was about 30, for the next 40, and about 45 in the following year. 240. — Mr King: So that the attendance has gone on increasing ? Witness : Yes. Last year the increase was not quite so good as the year before. Still, I think it was very satisfactory. 241- — Mr Ring: D J they attend well through- out the term ? Witness: Well, a certain number do. Of course, a lot come fo:- a short time and then drop off; but a great many continue right through the session. 242. — Mr CowELL : Do they pass well ? ATitness: Well, there is no examination; merely an inspection. 243. — Mr Ring : Do you think the abolition of examinations has had a good effect on night schools ? Witness : Yes, deeid> dly. I think it removes an objection which many young fellows had to a nigbt school. 244. — Mr Ring : They could not get a grant unless they presented themselves for examina- tion? Witness : That was so. 245- — Mr Ring : And there was a great objection to an examination ? Witness : Yes, the greatest objection. The Chairman : Yes. a great many people have. ( Laughter). 246. — Mr Ring: Do you think that, notwith- standing there are no examinatiocs, there is benefit derived from these night schools ! Witness : Yes. 247. — Mr King : How do you select the subjects? Witness : I take elementary subjects, of course, for those whose education has been neglected; and, as to the others, I ascertain the desires of the young men themselves as to v»hat subjects they will take. When they selected different subjects X had to choose subjects which suited the greatest number. 248. — Mr Ring : Had you any in the night school who were still attending the day school? Witness : Yes, in the year before last there were 13 day school boys attending the evening school, 249.— Mk Ring : What standard were they in? Witness : They had passed the sixth standard. 250. — Mr CowELL : What object bad they in attending the two schools? Witness : They belonged to the class of boys that wished to get on. 251- — Mr CowiLL : They cannot get enough instruction? Witness : They cannot get enough instruc- tion ; they take a great deal. 252. — Mr Ring : How did it work out finan- cially ? Had you assistance ? Witness : N% I did all the work myself. 258. — Mr Ring : How did it work out financially ? Witness : Of course, I have not had the result of last session. The previous session the total amount was j£45. 254. — Mr Ring : As a teacher, are you quite ready to undertake that strain of night work so many evenings a week for the re- muneration received ? Witness : No, I am not very willing, especially since T have become head teacher, the strain is too great. 255.— Mr Ring : It was quite voluntary on your part, the taking of the night school? Witness : Yes. 256. — Mr Ring : Your opinion is that it is quite well worth the while of an active assistant teacher, but it is rather too much for a head teaeh»*r ? 257. — Witness: Yes, I think the strain is too yreat after a day's work as head teacher. I may say, in regard to these evening schools, that if there was proper assistance to the teacher, and the whole thing better organised, th>'v would bi" much more successful. 258.— Mr King: If some monitory assistance was affordeif, and a capitation grant given, do yon think that would nelp to develop evening sell ools ? Witness : Yes. 259. — Mr Ring : You think if a little money was spent in promoting such schools, it would larijely promote education ? Witness : Yes. 260. — The Chairman : From your experi- ence as a teacher in the Island, do you recom- mend that evening continuation schools should be largely used for the purpose of secondary education ? Witness: Yes. 261 — Mr Ring : Has any attempt been made to establish evening classes for girls ? Witness : Yes. three years sgo ; but they were given up because the girls would not attend. 262. — Mr Ri?«G : How do you account for that? Witness : I don't know. I have not studied the girls' question at all. 263 — Mr KrNG : What is your opinion as to the effect of the new Code on night schools; do you think it will encourage them ? Witness : I think it may encourage them. The great objection to the old Code was the examinations. 264 — Mr RY3fEB : For the continuation schools I see the curriculum is very wide. Do you think a single teacher is able to do much good with so many subjects. Don't you think you are under a disadvantage as compared with English evening schools, where they have two or three teachers ? Witness: Yes, there should be different teachers tor different subjects. MR F. R. GRUNDEY'S EVIDENCE. 17 MR F. E. GRUXDEY'S EVIDENCE. MrF. R. Grundey.B.Sc.ofVictoriaUniTersity, who has been science master at the Douglas Higher Grade School from the time it was opened, was the next witness. 265. — Mr Ring : You have conducted even- ing classes for how many years? Witness : This is the second session. 266. — Mr Ring : These classes are taken under the direction of the Science and Art Department? Witness : Yes. 267. — Mr RiKG : Would you kindly state the terras on which they are conducted? Witness : The arrangement was that I should have £o per class and half of the grant. 268— Mr Ring : Who takes the fees? Witness: The Committee take the fees. 269— Mr Ring : Ho m many classes do you take? Witness : I took, in the first session, three classes. 270. — Mr Ring : Do you know what the (jrant came to that session? Witness : The full grant that session was ^668. 271.— Mr Ring : You took £3i. Witness : Yes. 272. — Mr Ring : Do you know what the fees of the Committee were? Witness : They got ,£11 for the three classes. 273 — Mr Ring : Then really, in regard to that, the Committee were out of pocket £4? Witness : They would get ^63-4 by the grant, Mr Ring : Really, the Committee made .£30 out of that. Mr Rymer : There wa; expensive apparatus, chemicals, i5ring, and gas. 274 — Mr Ring : You have no idea what the apparatus cost ? Witnf BS : It was the same appaiatus as u?ed in the day school. Of course the chemicals were all included. Mr EiNO : You have no idea what it would come to ? Witness : No. 275. — Mr Rymer : Do you think that with the coal and gas, and their outlay generally, the classes pay their way ? Witness : I do not think so this year, as from the syllabus of two of the chief subjects I do not expect good results. The Chairman : What subjects ? Witness : Chemistry, theoretical, and prac- tical. 276 — Mr Ring : Does there seem any ob- jection, as in otber continuation schools, to examinations ? Witness : Not altogether, because the certi- ficates are valuable to some. 277. — Mr Ring : Do you mean as to getting payments afterwards ? Witness : There is an idea that instead of examinations, the Science and Art Department will havt inspections. 278. — Mr Ring : Will that encourage at- tendance? Witness : Yes, except in regard to those who wish to obtain certificates as being useful to them as teachers or chemists' assistants. 279. — Mr Ring : What fees do you charge ? Witness : os for each class attended. 280.— Mr Ring : That is for the whole of the session? Witness : Yes, 281. — Mr Ring : When does the session begin and end? Witness : The session begins in the beginning of October, and continues till the examination in May. 282.— Mr Ring : What is the age of the pupils ? Witness : Ages range from 17 to 40. 283 —Mr Ring : The majority will be over 17 years of age? Witness : About 18 or 19. 284.— Mr Ring : Of what position in life are they? Witness : Of different grades — a good many are teachers, and some chemists' apprentices. 285. — Mr Ring : Do you think there is really a demand in Douglas for such classes as these ? Witness : Yes, I should say so. I think more would attend tbe classes but for the examinations, thongh of course some wish to take the examination to obtain the certificate. 286. — Mr Rymer: You don't attempt to take two studies at once — each study is taken at a different time ? Witness : No, except in practical subjects, we take eleiuentary and advanced together. 287. — Sir Ring : Do y^u think the scheme of all these classes suffers for want of money ? Witness: Yes. 288.— Mr Ring: What way would you ad- vise money to be spent in connection with classes of this kind? Witness: Mathematics is a subject which I think ought to be taken, but a teacher will hardly t.Tke a mathemetical class on the terms that those are now taken. He would not get many passes. Chemistry this year is almost in that position. 289. — Mr Ring : You mean that the exami- nation is so difficult that the grant would not be sufficient to remunerate the teacher? Witness : Yes. 290.— Mr Rymer : Does not that point to the fact that there ought to be a preparatory class before they enter upon the course of the Science and Art Department? Witness : Yes. 291. — Mr Rymer : For outside students — young fellows in engineering offices, and so on — do you think those examinations too stiff for them, for one session ? Witness ; If they have had no previous scientific training whatever, I should say some of them were too stiff. I should say mathe- m\tics was too stiff — for one year. 292 — The Chairman : I think you say you have no examination in connection with these classes? Witness : Yes, the South Kensington; but a good many students fall off just before the examination. 293 —The Chairman: What is the number of the class? Witness : The number who entered the first year was 62 ; last year 79 entered. Mr J. R. Cowell : Summing up the position of Douglas, how would you describe the present wants, educationally ? 18 EEV. CANON CLARKE'S EVIDENCE. Mr EiNO : I do not think Mr Grundy has at all considered that. He was asked to give evidence as to the working of these particular classes. 294. — Mr Dkinkvvatee : The fee charged was oi. Could some members of that class have afforded more ? Witness : I daresay most of them might. 295 — Mr King : Would they be willing to pay more, rather thaii forego the education ? Witness : Some might. The greater number would not like to pay more than 5s. 296.— Mr CoWELL : Could you form an opinion whether these students take up the matter as a freak, or whether they are likely to continue ? Witness : I think out of the 62 who came last year I have 50 again this year. 297 — Mr Rtmer : Could you give us an idea how many entered the classes, and how many went in tor examination afterwards ? Witness : Last year there were 62 entered the classes and 39 sat. This year we have had 79 who entered the classes, and 36 remained for the examination. 298. — JMrETMEB: That left 43 who did not attend the examination. For those you did not receive any remuneration except the small fee? Witness : I do not receive the fees. The Committee received nothing; it is a matter of those who attend the examination paying for those who do not. Mr Moore : How is it the proportion who did not attend the examination is so much larger this year? It is double as high this year as last. Mr Etmeb : I was going to ask if Mr Grundy and Mr Whittakcr would put into tabular form the particulars they have handed to us to-day. CANON CLAEKE'S EVIDENCE. The Eev. Canon B. P. Clarke was the next witness. 299. — The Chairman : You are Eural Dean of Douglas, and have had a life-long experience of this district ? Witness : More of the country than the town. 300. — The Chairman : What would you say with regard to the question under dis- cussion — whether there is a desire on the part of the parents for a higher education than they are receiving in the elementary schools ? Witness : I do not think there is the least desire in the country. 301. — The Chairman : I suppose you would also add there would be no willingness to pay fees? Witness : I do not think there would be a willingness. I made a great many inquiries, and 1 found there was no great desire for a higher education. In fact, the parents want their children at home after school hours. 302. — The Chairman : What do jou say with regard to evening continuation schools ? Do you think that they would be the most satisfactory means of imparting a knowledge of these practical and secondary subjects ? Witness : I think they would be very poorly attended. I do not think you would get half a dozen to attend. For one or two months, you miijht get a dozen, or even 50. 303. — The Chairman : Do you make that remark with regard to agricultural knowledge and cookery ? Witness : I do. 304. —The Chairman : With regard to everything ? Witness : I do. The fact is, it is very hard to get them to attend any schools — even the elementary schools. In Laxey, Eamsey, Fox- dale, and Port St. Mary, I think they might be succjssful on account of the greater population. 305. — Mr Drinkwatee: Supposing an opportunity was given later in life to smiths, and joiners, and so on — at 18 or 19— do you think they would attend ? Witness : I do not think they would. 306 — Mr Moore: Don't you think instruc- tion in such subjects would be more likely to attract those who were older ? Witness : Young men who want to be smiths and joiners have to attend their work in the day time. Mr Moore : I was referring more to agricul- ture and dairy worli. Witness : Those who want to learn farming learn it at home. As soon as school work is over, they are engaged about their own houses and farms. 307. — Mr EiNG : Do you think that classes for older people— for girls in dairy work and for boys in scientific farming — would be appreci- ated, seeing it would bear at once on the practical work of their lives ? Do you think that, although a man was goingto be a farmer, he would not appreciate knowledge abouc farming ? Witness : After they have done their day's work, I do not think they would attend in the evening. That is my opinion about it. 308 — The Chairman : You admit there is a small number who might desire education. How best could it be provided for them ? Witness : I think the best way would be by continuation schools — evening schools. 309. — The Chairman : But if the number was so small as you have named, the thing would not pay ? Witness: You wouldrequire to have centres. 310. — Mr Moore : What area do you speak of — Marown? The Chairman : He was speaking of the oountry parishes. 311. — Mr Cowell : Ion have made inquiries among the country people as to their views of secondary education. Did you find that they knew anything about it? Witness : I do not suppose that they knew much about it. They know sufficient to know what it means. 312.— Mr Cowell : Would you say that 50 per cent, of the general public understand what secondary education means? Witness: I am not prepared to say that 50 per cent, of the whole community would. 313. — Mr Cowell : It you have been con- versing with the general public — agricul- turists for instance — and find they did not REV. CANOX MOORE'S EVIDENCE. 19 understand what secondary education was, of what value is tbeir opinion ? Witness : They do understand, to a certain extent, what it means. 314. — Mr CowELL: Where do you suppose they get the information from ? Witness : They read a good deil. They will probably read an account of your meeting to-day. 315. — Mr CowELL : I have no doubt these proceedings will be highly interesting; but this is the first attempt in the Isle of Man to raise the question. My experience is not the same as yours, and I wanted to see what your opinion was based on. I find in the country districts that they do not know what the subject is without explanation. Tlien, when they do understand, it comes to a question of who will pay the cost. Witness: If you pay the costs of education, and also the costs of the people at home, it might be popular. 316. — Mr King : You mean if the parents were compensated for the loss of the children's services ? Witness : They cannot afford to do without them. 317. — Mr CowELL : Suppose some popular means were adopted by lecturers to fully inform the general public as to what this means, and the possible advantage to children, do you suppose they would alter their views considerably ? AVitnesp : I am doubtf il about it, 318. — Mr CowELL: Do you think thei-e is a deeply rooted antipathy on the part of the people to be educated? Witness : The people cannot afford it. The population is very sparse, and they cannot afford to spare the time of young people from home. 319. — Mr CowELL : Take the small farmer — the average Manx agriculturist — don't you find, as a rule, he is willing to make sacrifices for his child? Witness: Yes, he would; but they would find it harder to send their children than labourers would. I do not think the amount of sacrifice they would make would be sutil- cient to ensure the success of the scheme. CANON MOORE'S EVIDENCE. Canon Mooie was next examined. 320. — The Chairman : You are vicar of Braddan — a Manxman — and have spent your life in the Island ? Witness: Yes. 321. — The Chairman : We would like to ask you, from your knowledge of the locality, what do you think of the prospects of parents desiring to avail themselves of such higher education as we are contemplating ? Witness : I think there would be among the country people a certain number who would wish to avail themselves of higher education, but they are a limited number, and would vary according to the class of people. In the country parishes there are some small farmers — tenant-farmers — who find it very hard to make ends meet, and to whom the services of the children are a very great consideration. There are other farmers — owners — who are not in such hard circumstances, and many of them would very gladly avail themselves of the opportunity of obtain- ing higher education for their children. In some cases they send their children into Dou- glas for the day, returning at night. 322 — Mr Ring : To what schools do they send thera ? Witness : Some go from Braddan to the Higher Grade School, and some girls to private schools. 323.— The Chairman : Do you think even- ing continuation schools would be the best means ? Witness : Yes ; that is the practicable way of doing it ; at fees of 2d or 4d per week: 324. — The Chairman : If an evening con- tinuation school was started in Braddan, and the fees were much as you have heard described, do you think there would be a sufficient number of young people attending to make it pay a3 well as it appears to pay in connec- tion with the Higher Grade School in Douglas? Witness : It would not pay so well as in Douglas, because we have not the number of children. We have had evidence from the schoolmaster at Baldwin, who has graduated at the University, as to what could be done to give higher education. But, if it is to be appreciated and sought after, we must have efficient masters to give secondary education. I should favour the employment of peripatetic teachers where necessary. 325. — The Chairman : How do you think such desird as exists in your neighbourhood might be best met ? Would you have continua- tion schools or assisted scholarships to Higher Grade Schools at some neighbouring centre? Witness : I think, as a rule, a continuation school, and, in exceptional cases, scholarships also for the boy who is exceptionally clever. The continuation school is, I think, the practical way of solving the difficulty, with the ordinary master for some branches, and the peripatetic master for others. 326. — Mr Deinkwater : Do you think the scholarship should be perfectly open? Witness : Yes, 327— Mr Drinkwater: Would you limit it to particular schools, or have it throughout the Island? Witness: A gentleman having an affection for a parish might give a scholarship. 328 — Mr Ring • I understand we would confine it to people who want pecuniary assistance. Witness : I do not see how you could do that with the present open system of free education, 329.— Mr Deinkwater: Take the Braddan Boaid School, give a boy a chance of a sc'jolarstiip from that school to the Higher Grade School or a voluntary school in Douglas, Then let there be scholarships open to the whole of Douglas for King William's College, When a boy gets to King William's College, let there be open scholarships to the Univer. sities. Would you limit it to any particular schools, or districts, or would you make it 20 MR PETER CADMAN'S EVIDENCE. perfectly open, so as to get the cleverest boy in tbe Island? Witness : The fairest way would be to leave it perfectly open. 330.— Mr Ring: You mean to the sons of men who could afford perfectly well to pay for it? Witness : Yes. 331 —Mr King : You have fully considered that? Witness : I have not thought much about it. 332.— Mr Ring: If you have a certain amount of money to spend in promoting the higher education of promising boys, would you not give that money to those boys who would not be helped on by their parents ? Witness : If it were given only to pupils in the parish schools, it would practically be confined in that way. 333.— Mr Ring : Is it so in Braddan? Surely you must have the children of well-to-do farmers? Witness : Not many. Mr Ring : In Douglas we have the children of well-to-do tradesmen. Witness : The well-to-do farmers send their children to Douglas. Mr Ring : However, you think the money should go to those who want assistance, what- ever means you adopt. Mr Drinkwater: I did not understand that was his answer first of all. Mr Ring : lie said practically that would be BO, if you confine it to the parish school. 334. — MrRTMER: Is it your opinion that the scholarships should be, as in England, open to everybody, but only of nominal amount; and then, in case people require extra assistance to proceed with higher education, the scholarships should be increased ? Witness ■ You mean to increase it on account of poverty ! Mr Rtmee : Yes. Witness : I have not considered that. I would not like to give an opinion on that. The Chairman : I do not think it was ever contemplated for a moment to assist that class in the community which is able to provide for the education of its own children. We were simply contemplating the assistance of that class that sends children to the elementary schools at present. Mr Ring : The School of Art have some scholarships ; they have a list of names sent in, and they select out of those the most suitable. MR PETER CADMAN'S EVIDENCE. Mr Peter Cadman said : I am a farmer and landowner, and live at Glenlough. 335 — The Chairman : We would like to ask what demand there is, in your opinion, for secondary education ? Witness : I know very little about it, further than I think the farmers of the Isle of Man are so thoroughly weighted with their rents and rates that they have very little money to spend. 336. — Mr Moore : Our rates in the Isle of Man are not to be compared with the rates elsewhere. Witness ; But our rents in the Isle of Man are higher than in any other part of her Majesty's dominions, and I believe the tenant farmers, as a rule, pay them with the skin of their teeth. Parents are very glad to have their children at home. During the time I have been on the School Committee, I do not think we had more than two children over 15 years old at school. If a child wanted to get further education he went to Douglas. I am not quite aware whether they teach navigation now in Peel, but when I went to school in Peel, Mr Cowley was the master there, and old Mr Cain. They turned out splendid officers of ships — both sailing ships and steamers— and clinking engineers, and no assistance was given to them at all. I begin to think whether there is not a great deal too much time lost in country schools, in teaching the children so much grammar. Of course grammar is a thing that ought to be taught, but I mean to say that in most cases children cannot apply that knowledge in their conver- sation. The Americans have found out the same thing. 337. — Mr CowELL : Is it the failings of the elementary system that you are on now? Witness : It is a failing in the teaching, or something of that sort. If our farmers asked their children to do them a sum — to tell them the weight of a beast, or the price per pound, they could not do so. They cannot apply their knowledge. 338. — The Chairman : I think you are addressing us now rather on the failure of ele- mentary education. Do they desire secondary education? Witness : 1 do not think there is any desire for secondary education. 339. — Mr Drinkwater : With regard to the higher age of 18 or 19, do you think it would do any good if, throughout the country, there were travelling instructors in such things as dairy work, farriery, &c. ? Witness : Still, there are so many simple books on farriery, that if you get a box of medicine you can do those things yourself. Mr CowELL ; Is a little knowledge a danger- ous thing ? 340. — Mr Drinkwater: I mean the prac- tical work of a shoeing smith, showing lads how to put on shoes, how to trim a horse's feet, what to leave alone, and so on ; and showing girls how to make butter, how to wash clothes, how to cook and do laundry work. Don't you think that would do good ? Witness : It would. 341, — Mr Drinkwater : Do jou think people would attend ? Witness : They attended fairly well the dairy class. 342.— Mr Dkinkwateb: Do you think that it did good? Witness: It did a certain amount of good. 343— Mr Drinkwater : Do you think they would attend again? Witness : They might attend. REV E. B. SAVAGE'S EVIDEKCE. 21 344. — TheCHAiKJiAN: Your general opinion is that there is not any thirst for secondary education ? Witness: I am sure there is not. 345. — Mr CowELL : What do you base that on? Witness : On the simple fact that as soon as the children have passed the school age they leave school at once. Those boys that become carpenters go to learn their trade. Some time ago there was a night school tried, but it was not a success. The fellows would far rather go to the smithy, or sit on the bridge, 346.— The Chairman : Don't you draw a distinction between the teaching on the higher subjects tnught in the elementary schools, and which, I suppose, were taught in the night schools, and the technical — the prac- tical — subjects which we are contemplating? Is it an answer, that because they do not attend the elementary schools, they would not attend evening schools where a more practical knowledge would be given ? Witness: They mignt attend, if the rate- payers pay the piper. 347. — The Chairman : But leave out of eight the question of rates. Witness : I think that is a most important point. 348. — The Chaibman : The most important point on which I wanted to elicit your opinion was whether, if there was a wider-spread know- ledge as to the meaningof technical education, thei'e would be a desire on the part of the people to avail themselves of it ? Witness: I think all the evidence we have had here this morning tends simply to show that men who like to get on will get on, they become bachelors of art, make their own furniture, make their own shoes, and teach a school as well. (Laughter.) The Chaikman : That is an exceptional case. 349. — Mr King : Do they get on better without help? — No answer, 350. — Mr Etmeh : Seeing that some of the Couuiy Councils in England are providing scholarships, do you think that would bo any nse here? For instance, in dairy work, the Cheshire County Council ari' providing scholar- ships for a ten weeks' course at Wallaston. Witness : I think we are differently situated here. The younger girls go into town to be milliners and barmaids, ard so on. 351. — Mr EiNa : How is the supply kept up of women in the farms ? Witness: We have no supply. We have to employ men instead. We cannot keep the children a day from school to be on the farm, where they are practically learning agricultural work without putting anyone to any expense, and are earning money by it. 352. — Mr King : Don't women work in the fields in the Isle of Man ? Witness : Hardly a woman. I do not know a woman in our parish who does. 353. — Mr Moore : Who makes the butter ? Witness : The wives and daughters, very often, I'he men get wages they are satisfied with, nnd the women will not go out to work. 354. — Mr CoWELL : How do you explain that V Witness : First and foremost, it is because of the children. If a woman has a baby, she cannot keep a child 13 years old at home to look after it. 355. — Mr CowELL : Do you mean to say froH: thit it is undesirable that the children should be compelled to go to school to 14? Witness: Parents ought to le allowed to keep ttiem to help at certain times. 356,— Mr CowELL: You don't like to see women and children on the fields, do you ? Witness : Why in the world not ? It is a healthv occupation. 357. — Mr Ring : Do you think scholar- ships for teaching men agriculture would be of any use ? Witness : When you read the papers and see that Liverpool clerks are only too glad to clear snow away for two shillings a day, it does not look as if education was very much wanted. Mr Ring: It shows thev are very much wor.oe otF when they go to unskilled work. Witness : They get a poor unfortunate clerk who cannot do half a day's work. A good navvv is worth three of him. 358. — The Chairman : Do you believe in providing scholarships? Witness : I say every bright lad who comes of poor parents ought to have a chance to get on in life. 359. — Mr Ring : Would you not be in favour of having scholarships to bright lads to go to the Higher Grade Schools and so on ? Witness : To a certain extent, yes. But we must have hewers of wood and drawers of water. A ploujihman is not an atom better for knowing geometry 360. — The Chairman: Do you think the evening continuation classes would be pros- perous, having regard to the numbers attending them? Witness : They would not pay. 361. — Mr Drinkwater: You are quitesatis- fied that farmers would not like to be rated for secondary education ? Witness : I am certain they would not. 362. — Mr Drinkwater : Do you think it would make a difference if the money is taken out of the Insular revenue ? Witness : You said, a few moments ago, it was the same thing ; but it is not. The visitors pay the whole of the revenue practically. 363. — Mr Drinkwater : If the revenue is applied to make grants in aid of the rates, where is the difference? Witness : I think it is the farmers who go on in the old-fashioned way who have been able to hold their heads up the best. EEV. E. B. SAVAGE'S EVIDENCE. The Rev. E. B. Savage was the next to give evidence. 364 — The Chairman : Can you give us any opinion as to what is the desire of the parents in the Isle of Man with regard to secondary education? Witness : I am afraid I cannot. It is very difficult indeed to gauge the opinion of parents. You can only find out what the parents want when the supply is there. The Chairman : You mean that they do not quite understand what it meins ? 22 KEV E. B. SAVAGE'S EVIDENCE. Witness : I mean that they would not, beforehand, make expression ot their feelings till they saw some chance of their wants being supplied. Mr Moore : Yon mean that the supply would create the demand ? Witness: Yes. If there were facilities they would make use of them. 365. — The Chairman : Can you suggest the best means of spreading secondary know- ledge? Would you do it through evening continuation classes ? Witness : I think there ought to be a regular gradation of steps from the element- ary schools up to King William's College, and, if possible, to the Un-versities — or to Owens College for science students. I should recom- mend the extension from the elementary schools to be on the subjects of elementary education, for those who wished to go forward. Then the children that wanted to take technical subjects should go to the Higher Grade School, and those who wanted literary education to the Grammar School, and from there there would be scholarships to King William's College — and so we ought to get a regular gradation. I do not think that literary and technical education cr.n possibly go on together at the same school, because in all public schools there is a classical and a modern side, which are as distinct from each other as possible, with separate masters and a separate curriculum. The pupils only meet at games and meals. The two things must be kept distinct. The training is totally different. If the parents of children from the elementary schools wis'i them to go in for technical train- ing, it would be at the Hii^her Grade School, and if tor literary, at the Grammar School. We already have those establishments in existence, an^ all they need is to be strengthened — if they need strengthening. 366. — The Chaieman : You would not be in favour of evening continuation schools in country districts ? Witness : I am only dealing with towns. 367 The Chairman : You would go in rather for the system of scholarships ? Witness : I do not say " rather." I mention that as one point. That is for the " cream " of the children. For the others I would strongly recommend evening continuation classes, and, where necessary, peripatetic teachers. But it seems to me that the only possible two subjects, from a technical point of view, that can be of use, are agriculture and navigation. 368. — The Chairman : You are leaving out girls altogether. Witness : I am only talking about the boys at present. The girls do not go to King William's College. I remember some 20 years ago, I had to do with some chemistry classes in Gloucestersbire. We got them founded there, and a teacher came from Stroud. The classes were very well attended. But we do not want chemistry here. They wanted it there because the great industry was the djeing of cloth, and they wanted a knowledge of chemistry for the dye-works. But there are no works here at all that any technical education would lead up to. Mr CowELL : There is mining. Witness: Agriculture and navigation will always be needed. The girls will always want cookery and dairy work. Mining has only a restricted area, and is now confined practically to Foxdale; and there is no assay work done here. Mr CowELL : It might be done here, though. Witness : I certainly think those extensions from the elementary schools, and scholarships from the higher schools to King William's College are very essential points. There should be a "ladder." 369. — Mr Ring : With regard to technical education, you look upon it that some instruc- tion in agriculture is the only subject that could be thought of for the Isle of Man? Witness : Agriculture and navigation are very essential. In Douglas there are a large number — more than those who go fishing — who go to sea. 370. — Mr Ring : If we are giving something for secondary education, you say it would be better to devote it to the general culture of the child, making it more efficient in the ordinary subjects, and also in drawing, so as havi' training of hand and eye? Witness ; I believe in havinsr the general instruction of children in elementary schools raised, and stronely raised, but what can you do with children when they leave .='chool at the early a'^e they do ? I think we might easily go beyond the limit that is wise in the introduction of subjects in the elementary schools until we have the age raised. It is far better to have the children well grounded in what they learn, than to give them a stuffing of a great many things. But I take it there ought to be a chance for able children whom you find amongst all classes. They ought to have their chance in the world, and a "ladder" by which they can climb, if they want — but after they have left the elementary schools. 371. — Mr Ring : I notice you contrast the Grammar School, and the Higher Grade School, in speaking of the Grammar School as a literary School. Do you know the curriculum of the Higher Grade School yourself? Witness: No, I do not, entirely; I know they go in for science. Mr Ring: There are large requirements as to literary work. Witness : I do not think it wise. Mr Ring : The Science and Art Department have assisted them. Witness : I doubt the wisdom of it. In all public schools, you have the classical side and the modern side. Mr Ring : The Science and Art Dep.irtment considered that scientific work alone was not the proper lines upon which to conduct educa- tion. In all science schools they are obliged to take a large literary curriculum. Witness : That does not include Latin and Greek. Mr Ring : Oh, yes. Witness : Does it include Latin and Greek verse ? Mr Ring : No. Witness: Of course they must know elemen- tary Latin and Greek. Every chemist has to do that, but it is not a literary education. MR D. M. ROBERTSON'S EVIDENCE. 23 Mr Eixa : It is literary in a sense, because it deals with literature, pure and simple. Witness : It deals with language. I think myself in whatever scheme may be brought forward for secondary education, it would be a very great mistake to leave the Grammar Schools out of account. 372. — Mr EiNG : You look upon it that the Higher Grade School does not supersede the necessity for the Grammar School ? Witness : Mo; I look on the Higher Grade School as the modern side, and the Grammar School as the classical side. I think the two things must be kept distinct. I think that the scholarships from the different schools from the different parts of the Island to King William's College ought to be higher than they are ; they are very poor. 373. — Jlr Ring : There is rather a tendency to separate by a sharp line the modern and the classical. Witness : After a certain point in the ochool course, they must go off and keep distinct. Is not that ao, Mr Walters ? Rev. F. B. Walters : I do not like a technical education at all which has no literary side to it. I should like the i-nodern sixth and the classical sixth to be at English literature together. Though they cannot meet on Latin and Greek literature, they can on English literature. Witness : I am speaking of what is possible here. The boys that go to the Grammar School would naturally go to King William's College and the University. The sharp boys that get exhibitions in the Higher Grade School would probably go to Owens College. I think the one line is just .ts worthy as the other; but I think the two things must be kept distinct. 374.— The Chaikman : You have shown us what would be the effect of a system of scholarships for literary boys, and for those who want to go on the modern side. Now about the evening continuation classes, that you would still propose to have in the parishes ? Witness : The great difficulty in Douglas is that all boys are so much sought after in the summer tiuie, that it is hard to continue their education after the school age. We find it very much the same in our Sunday schools. Boys do not turn up on Sundays, and on inquiry you find they are employed as errand boys, and that they were not in bed till three in the morning. When boys reach the limit of legal school age, and are able to do good work, they are taken away, and I doubt if you could keep them. You might keep them at evening continuation schools. 375. — The Chairman : I think yon sketched for us something that was very valuable as to what you would do with the brighter children in the country elementary schools— those who showed literary taste you would send, by meauF of scholarships, to the Grammar School and King William's College, and the Universi- ties — those who have a taste for the modern side, you would send to the Higher Grade School and Owens College. I quite under- stand that. But I understood you to say that over and above those scholarships which would provide for bright children, you would have evening continuation schools in these parishes as well. I only ask you to remember that by the scholarships you would be with- drawing the flower of the flock, the cream of the children who would avail themselves of evening continuation classes in these districts. Witness : I do not think the children who take scholarships would be such a large per- centage as to make any difficulty. The Chairman : It would be the cream off the milk. Witness: It always must be. 376- — Mr Rtmer : Are you acquainted with any school on the Island, except King William's College, that takes Latin and Greek verse ? Witness : I believe in the Grammar School they take Elementary Latin and Greek verse; but it seems to me more natural, from the instru'tion the boys would get there, that they should go from there to King William's College, and more natural that they should go from the Higher Grade School to Owens College. 377.— Mr Rymeb: Would they not be able to take the Science Tripos if thev went on to Cambridge instead of to Owens College ? Witness: Yes; but 1 do not suppose they would go to Cambridge from the Higher Grade School. I should think Owens College was as good as tlie scientific side of Cambridge. Mr Rtmer : There are more entering for the Natural Science Tripos than for any other. Witness: I was not aware of that, but I know it is coming forward. Owens College seems to afford a practical grounding for them. I have a great idea of Owen's College for boys in that line. 378. — (To the Chairman) : You were asking what possible fees might be paid, The actual fees at the Grammar School are as low as £G a year, but with books, &c., it comes to .£9 a year. Tnere are over 40 beys, and the number is increasing. I do not think that school ought to be left out of view by the Commissioners in dealing with the subject. I think it might be wise if you asked Mr Barthelemy to give evidence. The Chairman : I have not got the Com- mission at hand, but the Commission distinctly directs us to consider it. Mr Moore : No school of any sort or kind will be left out of view. ME D. M. ROBERTSON'S EVIDENCE. Mr D. M. Robertson, principal of the School of Art, Douglas, was next examined. 379.— Mr MooEE: Do you find students come forward readily for examination ? Witness: No ; they are very much averse to being examined. 380. — Mr Moore : Do you refer to the day or night schools ? Witness : The day pupils are more averse than the night class. 881.— Mr MooEE :2Both 4j-t and Science? Witness i Both. z^ MR D. M. ROBERTSON'S EVIDENCE. 382. — Mr Moore : Do the grants go far to pay the expenses of your class ? Witness : They go a long way ; but the grants have been gradually withdrawn by the Science and Art Department. The Department declare that this grant is not intended to be a permanent one, that it may be withdrawn gradually or altogether; and it is intended that, by and bye, each local centre should support its classes directly. 383.— The Rev. F. B. Walters : Is not the grant based on results ? Witness : Yes ; the results are being made much more difficult, both in Science and Art. Certainly, in some Art subjects, the standard has been raised in the last four years. 384.— Mr King : Is that with the object of reducing the amount payable ? Witness: Yes; they could not pay the grants now, if the standard were the same as twelve years ago. 385.— Mr Moore : What about the attend- ance of girls ? Witness : They attend my classes more regularly than boys. 386. — Mr Ring : On what system is it done at tlie School of Art? About your building first of all ? Witness : The building is not an ideal one as a School of Art. It) is the property of the Committee. 387. — Ml- Ring: I believe it is encumbered? Witness : There is about 4240 of a mortgage upon it. 388 —Mr Ring: < n what terms is the school conducted, as between the Committee and the master ? Witness : I am sorry to say it is farmed out, pretty neaily. Mr Ring: The fees are fixed by the Committee ? What you mean is that there is no fixed salary paid to the master? Witness : None. Mr Ring : You get the room and pay all expenses of lighting and heating ? Witness: I pay all expenses and rates, the cost of the care-taker, and insurance; and I take the fees and grant. 389.— Mr Eiiso: What is the system of classes there ? Witness: We have in the day two classes for advanced pupiU, and for those who are able to devote part of the daytime to study of Drawing and Painting; and Industrial classes for the evening. 390 —Mr Ring : The day classes are attended by people of more leisure ; and the night classes by whom? Witness : I wish I could say they were chiefly attended by artisans. I cannot say that fairly. 391. — Mr Ring: Are they attended con- siderably by artisans ? Witness : Ob, yes, there is a consider- able number of them. Mr Ring : What is the total number ? Wituess : A dozen actually engaged in the constructive trades. Mr Ring : Out of what total ? Witness : I am speaking of the average attendance — out of a total of GO. Mr King : About one-fifth belong to the artisans? Who are the others? Witness : There are about twenty pupil teachers. Then we have girls who have a couple of hours to spare in the evening, who study Drawing as an accomplishment — not with the idea of making any direct use of it. Mr Ring : About half, then, are using the classes for industrial or technical purposes ? Witness : Much more than half. 392— Mr Moore : Which do you think the best method of promoting the study of Drawing ? Witness : Certainly, to do away with the method of payment by results; to substitute an Inspection, or to give a fixed grant for Drawine. As time goes on, classes -will cease to he self supportiu'.-, with the system as it is at. present. A previous witness has pointed out ihat they have raised the standard in Chemi'try. That has been going on for a long time in Art. About four years ago they raised "Perspective" quite 50 per cent, and it has remained so since then. They raised Free- hand Drawing about 50 per cent, at one time, but they have let it drf)p since. 393— Mr Moore: The result will be that it will bf-conie more and more difficult tosupport the schools? Witness : It becomes more and more diffi- cult for the teacher to make a living. Mr Ring : That is the same thing. Pp to now it hus been fairly self-supporting, and it was worth your while to remain on those terms, but you see things are rapidly going in a direction which will lead to it being impossible. Witness : Not rapidly — slowly. 394. — .^Ir G. Drink WATER asked if there was much demand for Mechnnical Drawing. Witness : Certainly not. I heard what Mr Ridge said with regard to the engineers' desire to improve themselves. I can only say I have not found it so. We teach Mechanical Drawing and Machine Construction, and we have never had more than three pupils, I think, studying at the same time, 395. — Mr tlYMER : Does that remark apply to liuilding construction ? Witness : Yes, if I make this explanation — that I do not recommend them to take Build- ing construction or Machine Construction without some preliminary work. There is no use, without they know some Geometry. Rev. P. B. Walters : You mean Geome- trical Drawing? Witness: Yes. When they come to me, they suppose they can start Mechanical Draw- ing before they do any Geometrical Drawing. 396 — Mr Eymer: 1 should like your opinion as to the Technical Instruction Act, under the provisions of which many schools have been handed over to the control of the County Councils. Witness: I have not thought over the matter at all. Inasmuch, as the Town Council are usually able to spend more than a voluntary committee, I think it would tend to make the School of Art better equipped. There may be many sides to the question; I have not MR R. J. CLAGUE'S EVIDENCE. 25 tliought of it. It might not be managed so well under Town Councils. Mr Eymek : Many schools, such as you have mentioned, have oeen handed over to the Town Council simply because tbey cannot exist under the voluntary system. MR E. J. CLAGUE'S EVIDENCE. Mr E. J. Clugue next gave evidence. 397. — MrDKiNKWATER : Tou are a farmer, and are also in touch with the farmers and land-owners ? Witness : Yes. 398 — Mr Dkinkwateu: What is your opiiiion about the improved secondary educa- tion in the Isle of Man ? Witness : I think there is a considerable demand for it. 399. — Mr Drinkwateb': In what way ? Witness: lu the forui of advanced classes in the day schools, and continuation classes in the evening. 400. — Mr Drinkwateu : That is limiting your remarks to the country? Witness : Of the country I am speaking altogetlier. 401. — Mr Dhinkwateb : What subjects would you advise for the day schools? Witness: For tl'O day schools after they had passed standard six, I should say the principles of agriculture, and various technical subjects which might he required. 402 — Vlr Dmnkwatee : Do you think you could get children to attend? Witness : From inquiries I have made in Braddan, I find a considerable demand for it. I can quite bear out the statement of Mr Quayle for one school. From inquiries I have made, I find that 15 per cent, of the parents in Braddan are anxious for Higher Grade education generally. 403. — Mr Drinkwateb : Would they be prepared to pay any fees ? Witness : I think si. 404 — Ml- Drinkwateb: Then about the continuation schools at night — what subjects would you demand to be taught there ? Witness: I think the literary and technical subjects should bo taught. I quite agree with Mr Savage that there should be scholarships from each pariah — one from the day schools and one from the evening continuation classes, so as to encourage both. 405. — ^Ir EiNO : Then do you think that parents would allow children to remain longer at the day schools ? Witness : In Braddan, about 15 per cent, are in favour of allowing them to continue their education to 16 years. 406. — Mr Ring : How do you arrive at that ? Witness : By personal inquiry from the parents. Since I got notice of this inquiry, I have come in contact with a good many. 407. — Mr EiNQ : What would these parents be? Witness : Farmers, mostly— small farmers. 408. — Mr EiNG : The vicar seemed to think that they send their children to Douglas. Witness: A few send children to Douglas; but if we had more advanced classes in the same neighbourhood they would go to them. 409. — Mr EiNG : I suppose only a small pro- portion go on account of the distance ? Witness : That is so. 410. —Mr DsiNKWATEB: Do you think the girls would make use of dairy schools ? AVitness : I think they would, if properly carried out. I do not know that they would be of very great advantage in connection with our evening schools, but if the Education Boaid, or some other authority, took the matter up, and had a teacher going to different centres in the Isl.ind, I believe it would be a very great advantatre to farmers. I believe the last experiment did good, and that, if carried out, it would be very advantageous to farmers. 411. — Mr EiNO : You have heard the sugges- tion to have school gardens, which are adopted largely in Ireland. Do you believe in them ? Witness: They would be very instructive no doubt, to the children, 412. — Mr CowELL: Do you believe ihe know- ledge that would be imparted would be of any, practical use in farming? Witness : Yes, I believe it would. If they learnt the theory in ;ki.'ison is here, and will speak better as to that. The Chairman : We will take her evi- dence after wardd. Am I right in saying that cookery is chiefly desired ? Witness : Yes. 470. — The Chairman : Could not this instruction be given in elementary schools? Witness : It could be given if there were room. I am afraid in most schools there would not be accommodation. By providing extra class-rooms, it could be given. The Chairman: You say that by addi- tion to the elementary school buildings, the desire, so far as the girls are concerned, might be met? Witness-: Yes, it might be met in the elementary school buildings. 471 — 'I'he Chairman : I notice on pages 5 and 6 of the report that has been sent in, you state that out of 50 hi'tters of inquiry sent to parents of boy? in standards 5, 6, and 7, 35 replies were sent in as regards boys in Castle- town? Witness : Yes. 472- — The Chairman: What branches of education would this r^fer to ? Witness: There is a desire expressed for woodwork, shorthand, book-keeping, and drawing. 473. — The Chaikman : Was there any desire in Castletown for agriculture ? Witness : There was one boy who did not belong to the parish who applied. 474. — The Chairman : Apart from the ques- tion of fees, what existing agencies are there in Castletown, or the immediate neighbourhood, for imparting knowledge in the subjects in which boys require secondary education ? Witness : There is a grammar school in Castletown, and classes are, I think, held by one of Lady Gell's daughters in wood-work — fret-work, I think it is, chiefly — at a building in Alexandra-road, nearly opposite the Boys' Board School. Then t here is the College in the immediate vicinity ; there is a High School for girls, and there are one or two private schools. I do not think the private schools go above the level of the ordinary elemestary education in Board Schools. They do not take boys above eight or nine years of age, and we flnd the children have not an education beyond, or even up to our standard. The Chairman : You are speaking now of agencies for elementary education as well. Distinctly, again, what are the agencies exist- ing for secondary education p Witness : The Grammar School and the College for boys, and the High School for girls. 475. — The Chairman : I suppose I am right in assuming that the Grammar School and King Williair.'s College charge fees which parents would be unwilling to pay, and which, in the maiority of eases, would be above their means ? Witness : Yes. 476. — The Chairman: In your judgment, would it be best to make provision for the secon- dary education that is needed for this class of boys by erecting a Higher Grade School in this district, by building a "ladder" to existing institutions, or by evening continuation classes? Witness: In the first place, 1 do not think we have the numbers to support a Higher Grade School, but I would adopt the means of adding classes of an advanced character to the ordinary elementary day schools ; and also for those who have gone beyond evening con- tinuation classes. 477. — The Chairman : You have said nothing as to the " ladder " to the Grammar School and King William's College ? Witness: I have thought about that. You might do it by scholarships; but not many parents wonld be able to keep their children at school to the age that would be necessary. Fifteen would be the outside age to which most parents at Castletown would be able to keep their children at school. In a very few cases they might be able to keep them beyond that. In those c:ises they could have scholar- ships to the Grammar School and King William's College. 478. — The Chairman : Your answer would be modified, I suppose, if handsome scholar- ships were provided ? Witness: Yes. 479. — The Chairman: Now, if the Commis- sioners were to see their way — I am putting the case hypothetically, for we have come to no conclusions yet — to recommend the erection of a Higher Grade School in Castletown, would it be valuable for the whole district that I have named ? Witness : It would be valuable, but I do not think you would get any considerable number of children from the large parish of Eushen. I do not think it would be used. 480. — The Chairman : The other parishes might use it? Witness : They might ; but so few send in from those parishes at present that we have not a great deal to go upon, and I do not think we could support a Higher Grade School. Still, I think we might very well put a Higher Grade top on our school, or some other sehool in the parish, as a centre. 481. — The Chairman : What fee would you charge ? Witness : I think Is is the cost per week in Douglas. The Secretary : It is 9d in Douglas — that ia the limit. The Chairman : The cost is, I think, one shilling, including books. The Secretary : That is not a legal charge. Mr Rtmer : That applies to the Elementary Department — not the Science Department. 482. — Mr J. E. CowELL : Who conducts the High School for girls ? Witness : A Miss Taylor. 483. — Mr CowBLL : Is it a private institu- tion? Witness : I do not know that it is private. MR E. T. SHEPHERD'S EVIDENCE. 31 484. — The Rev. P. H. Walters : It is uuder a body of trustees. I am one of the trustees, and can tell you anythinji about it. (To Witness) : There is just one question I wish to ask you. You say to have cookery it would be neressary to have other class rooms ? Witness: In most schools it would. 485. — The Rev. F. B. Walters : Supposing that the present schools were dealt with by the Education Department, structurally, would not many of them fail to pass the standards required by the rules? Are not the buildings for the most part a gooc" deal below the requirements of the Department. In England they have been pulling them up a good deal. The last minister did. A good many of them were found to be below the requirements. Witness : In a good many of the schools — in most of the schools — there is only one, or at most two rooms. It would be aim jst impossible to take any secondary work in those. 486.— The Rev. F. B. Walters : But if the inspectors pulled them up to the point that is required by the code, would not that practic- ally provide what you want ? Witness : Cookery is not a compulsory sub- ject, and, therefore, the managers of schools do not provide it. 487.— The Rev. F. B. Walters : But they would have to provide an extra room at present, to bring them up to the requirements of the code ? The Secretary : Only a few. Most of them have a second room now. 488.— Mr Drinkwater : 1 would like to ask you whether you think that Castletown would approve of an additional rate for the erection of a Higher Grade School ? Witness : I do not think so. They would not mind if it was paid out of the Insular revenue. (Laughter.) 489. — Mr CowELL : Do you attempt to explain the indifference of the parishes on this question ? Do you attempt to explain the indifference of the parents in not giving an answer ? Witness : I daresay most of them do not understand what is meant by the education to be given. Most of them would take their children from school as soon as they had reached the age of 14, or had passtd the standard at 13. 490.^11r CoWELL: That is a point we had before — whethir in sending out the inquiries, they understood what it meant. Witness : They did not, in the first instance, understand the simple question — did they desire higher education ? I had very few replies favourable. 1 think it was not under- stood. I think we had only seven or eight replies saying they wanted better education. Most of them said they were quite satisfied. I think most of them did not understand what was proposed. 491. — Mr ( OWELL : Supposing it was ex[.ilained to the average yeoman, what was meant by secondary education — do you suppose their judgment would be affected? Witness : I think there would be a greater desire than at present. I do not think many of them like to give an opinion until they know what they are likely to get, and what it is lik^^ly to cost them, 492.— The Chairman: There wa? no defini- tion given in your letter of inquiry ? Witness : Not in the first letter. In the second letter I mentioned the subjects which it was proposed to take — joinery, book-keeping, mathematics, drawing, shorthand, science, and domestic economy, and millinery for girls. I sent out a letter telling them those suhjects migiit be taught, and then 1 obtained 35 out of 50 replies in my own schools. The Chairman: Then, as information was spread with regard to the meaning of the term, the answers became more favourable. 493. — Mr CowELL : f^upposing the matter was fairly understood, do you think there would be a considerable difference in the demand? Witness : I think there would ; it would depend a great deal on the fees. Of course I had to make my letters conditional. A great many "ifs" were in them. 494- — The Chairman : I think it ought to be said with respect to the 50 letters sent out in Castletown, out of which 35 favourable replies were returned, that those were sent to the parents of children in standards 5, 6, and 7 only. Witness : Yes ; to the parents of 50 boys in those standards. But of course those would be the children from whom we should get cindi.Iates for any higher education. 495. — Mr JouQHiN : You said that if a Higher Grade School were established here, you would not expect many scholars from Rushen? Witness : Yes. 496. — Mr JouQHiN : Why do you think so? Witness: It is a large and populous parish. It is more populous than any. I think they could support as large a school as they could in Castlitown and neighbourhood. 497. — Mr JoUGHiN: Supposing there was only one at Castletown for Castletown and the South, would they come from Kushen ? Witness : I don't thiuK so. 498. — MrKTMER: In connection with the subjects of woodwork and cookery — both those subjects require a special room, do tbey not? Witness : Yes. 499. — MrKTMER: In that case, supposing you got all the woodwork over in one day, would not one centre do for the whole district, if it were not for the distance the children would have to travel ? Witness : Yes, the distance is a great draw- back. From the nearest school it would be a half-hour's walk. That would be one hour, so the whole morning would be gone in one subject. 500. — Rev. F. B. Walters : An ordinary class-room could be fixed up for the woodwork, could it not? Witness : It is not so much a matter of the class-rooms; it is that it would interfere with the curriculum to have it in the same building. 501. — Rev. F. B, Walters : You would teach it in the same hours? Witness: It is often taken as a subject in Elementary School-^. 502.— Rev. F. li. Walters : I was thinking if a peripatetic teacher were employed, they might go on at different hours. 32 MISS HODGKINSON'S EVIDENCE. Witness : In my own case, many boys go to work as soon as they get out of school, and work before coming to school the next morning. 503. — The Chaikman : Then do you think the needs of the district would be best met by additions to the present school buildings, and by evening continuation classes? Witness : J think so, and an addition to the staff of the schools. We could not do it with the present staff. 504. —The Chairman : Would it be con- sidered a great boon if a " ladder " was built from the Elementary Schools to the Grammar School and King William's College ? Witness : I think it would be appreciated, but a difficult point is that the etandard of education in the country districts is not up to the standard in Douglas or in many schools across the water. In Douglas they have joinery and science in the ordinary day schools' curriculum, whereas, in most of the schools in the Isle of Man they are not given. MISS HODGKINSON'S EVIDENCE. 505. — The Chairman : You are head teacher at the girls' school at Eushen ? Witness : Yes. 506.— The Chairman: We are anxious to hear about Husben. You have heard the questions that have been cut to Mr Shepherd. I will ask you, first of all, with regard to Eushen, is there a large desire, or any desire on the part of parents for such information as I have described? Witness: I think so. 507 — The Chairman : Amongst those classes who attend our elementary schools? Witness : I think more among the middle class. They would be very willing to have, and would like to have, a higher school. 508- — The Chairman: Have you made definite inquiries on that point, or are you speaking from general knowledge ? Witness: I have made some inquiries, and I speak from general knowledge, too. 509. — The Chairman : What is the popula- tion of the parish of Eushen ? Mr Drinkwater : The population of Castle- town in 1891 was 2,160, and of Eushen S.400. Witness : We have about 600 children attending our elementary schools, 510. — rhe Chairman : If the population of Eushen is so much larger than that of Castle- town, it might be a question — if a centre was fixed for the district— whether it should be here or there ? 511. — Witness : I do not think anything that might be done for Castletown would help us at all. The railway fares are so expensive that I think it would not help the parishes at all to have atjythimg done tor Castletown. That is why I was appointed by the teachers to represent our parish. 512.— The Chairman : I think it has been made clear to the Commissioners that, practi- cally, a centre here would not be available for the children of Eushen. Witness : And vice versa, I think. 513. — The Chairman: When you say there is a widespread desire amongst parents for higher education, you are referring both to boys and girls ? Witness : I know more about the girls than I do about the boys. As far as I can hear, I believe the boys go to work very much sooner than the girls. 514 — The Chairman: As regards the girls — in what subject would they specially need instruction? Witness : I think that cookery, housewifery, and dress-cutting, and subjects suitable for girls, will be what we ought to take. 515. — The Chairman: And those should be given in connection with the elementary schools ? Witness : Certainly. 516. —The Chairman : Are your present buildings suitable for this purpose ? AVitness : Not at all. 517 — The Chairman: Then, with additions to the buildings of the elementary schools at Eushen, such instruction might be given in the elementary schools ? Witness : Yes, with the staff increased. 518 — The Chairman: Inquiries with respect to the desire of the parents in Eushen were sent out — were they not? Witness : Yes. 519 — The Chairman : I think, in the Eushen parochial boys' school, there were 28 favour- able replies out of 140, and in Port St. Mary, only 1 out of 40? AVitness : i think that was partly because very much time was not given to reply. I think the parents did not quite understand what was required from them. There might have been more returns if we had given more time. 520.T-The Chairman : iSow, aie there any agencies in Eushen for imparting information on the subjects on which information is required? Witness : I think not. The Chairman : Are there no private ventures? Witness : There is one small one — I think about six children attend. The Chairman : That really is the only agency for imparting higher education, either for boys or girls ? Witness : That is all, as far as I know. 521 — The Chairman : Having regard both to the elementary school and middle-class children, what fees do you think the parents would be willing to pay — taking an average ? Witness : I think the middle-class would be willing to pay from 15s to £1 per quarter. 522. — The Chairman: Have you formedany idea as to the best mode or modes which the Commissioners can recommend by which pro- vision can be made? Would you recommend that it should be made through a central insti- tution, or by enlarging the elementary ichools, or by evening continuation classes ? Witness : I think it would be better to have a separate school. 523 —The Chairman : A special school? Witness : I think so. 524 — The Chairman : You say that, having regard to the probability of the institution payini; ? 525. — Witness : I think so. I suggest that the school should be for little children to begin MISS HODGKINSON'S EVIDENCE. 33 from the first, and to have kinder-gart^n taught as in the elementary schools, so that the parents who would like to pay for a better education may do so. I would propose to have a school embracing all ages from infants upwards. I think there is that dehire. 626. — ^'r CowBLL : 1 understood you to say that from the middle classes, who do not now send their children to the elementary schools, there would be a considerable amount of support. Wi'oess : Yes. 527 — Mr CowELL : Where do those children go now? Witness : Some go to the Higher Grade School in Douglas. Then, of course, it is the lesser children that we want to help, as well as those who are able to go a distauce. Some go to Castletown, and some, I believe, go across the water. If there were such a school iu the district, I think it would be well attended. 528. — Mr CowELL : That is independently of the children who now go to the elementary schools 1 Witness : Yes. 529. - Mr CowELL : Can you form any idea of the number ? Witness : Certainly ; from 20 to 30 families would like to have their children at such a school. 530.— Mr CowELL : to pay for it ? Witness : I think so, 531.— Mr Cowell: And they arc willing if it were established. If there were such an establishment for Rushen, would it be possible for the adjoining parishes to oome in? Witness : From Arbory it might be ; but it is a long distance for young children. 532. — Mr Cowell : Do you think a school would pay which was practically confined to the parish of Rushen? Witness : I fancy it would pay if good fees were charged. I do not say that it should be free, or nearly free. I think that the people of the middle classes are desirous of paying for the education of their children. 533.— Mr Cowell : You speak of 20 or 30 families. Supposing we could count on two children from each family — that would mean 50 or 60 children to attend the Higher Grade School. Do you think it would be possible to make such a school pay at ^61 per quarter ? Witness : Perhaps not. Of course, it would have to be assisted. 534. — Mr JouGHiN : Supposing only one Higher Grade School could be established in this district, where would be the most suitable place for it— Arbory, Eushen, or Castletown ? Witness : I do not know which would be the best centre. 535. — Mr Cowell : Would Castletown work as a centre ? Witness : I think not — if you consider the time taken up by the trains at present. Children going to Castletown have to start at seven in order to get to school at nine. Then they have to wait about; and in winter they do not get home till six, and they have their lessons to prepare after that. I think it is very hard for the people of Rushen to have to send their children to Castletown, as Mr Walters perhaps knows. Rev. F. B. Walters: I cannot help thinking — with all due deference to the Chair- man — that we have got entirely off the subject. (Laughter.) The school which you seem to be speaking of is a kinder-garten school, chiefly for small children, and not a higher education at all. You are proposing to subsidise by rates a school with a class distinction, and that, I think, is going in the very opposite direction to what we ought to go. It is making a select school where the education would be no better than in the elementary schools, but the fees would be higher, and the rates would be used to keep it going. It is not a higher school. 536. — You have kinder-garten at your own school, haven't you ? Witness : On a small scale. Rev. F. B. Walters : Would it not be better to have a good kinder-garten at your own school ? Witness : The children would not be sent to it. Rev. F. B. Walters: Surely in the infant school they would, it is certainly in all the large English elementary schools. Witness : They would not send them, I think. They would have private teachers. Rev. F. B. Walters : But if provision was made in the general school, and they did not use it, I cannot think it is the business of the Commission on Secondary Education to provide it elsewhere. The Chairman : 1 was thinking that Miss Hodgkinson had gone a little oflf the inquiry; but she did refer to the need for secondary education as well. Witness : I said, to begin with, that there ought to be secondary education. The Chairmau : I think she answered that, in her judgment, there was a considerable demand among the children of the middle classes for secondary education. Then she introduced the subject of the kinder-garten, and I thought we should hear what she had to say. Witness : I wanted you to understand that it was not merely for older children that further education was required, but that you should have a good school from the beginning. 537. — Rev. F. B. Walters : I am not much wrong in saying that it is a more select school you have in mind, rather than a Higher Grade School ? Witness : You can put it that way, if you like. 538. — Mr Dbinkwateb : Would it not be difficult to separate the people who would pay fees from those who would not ? Some people would be able to pay, and some would not be able to pay. Don't you think it would raise a great difficulty, to di-aw the line ? Witness : You would only take those children whose parents would pay. There is the elementary school for those who would not. Mr Dbinkwater: That carries out Mr Walters' remark — that it would be a select school, really. 539 — Mr Cowell : Supposing this Higher Grade School were confined to the boys and girls who had passed the fifth and sixth standards, and no other children were admitted, would there then be a demand for a secondary school ? 34 MR H. QUALTKOUGH'S EVIDENCE. Witness : I think a class on top of the present existing schools would answer that want. 540.— Rev. F. B. Walters: How many go from Eiishen at present to the Higher Grade School ? Witness : When I made iuquiry, I think there were about seven. The Chairman : I think it will facilitate our inquiry if we confine ourselves for a moment to Ruahen, and take the Ri shen witnesses first, as we are on that subject. MR. II. QUALTROITGH'S EVIDENCE, 541. — The Chairman : I think you live in Rushen, and are a member of the School Committee there? Witness: Yes. 542. — The Chairman: What is your opinion with respect to the desire of the parents for secondary education in your district? Witness: The School Committee have never made any inquiries themselves, but I under- stand some of the teachirs have. I can only judge from general knowledge. I think there is not a very great desire for higher education in the parish. At present I should think there are ten or a dozen children going out of the parish for such education, and that is a very small proportion of our children. I think we have 600 children attending the four schools in the parish. The Secretary : You have 650. 543 — I he Chairman : Are you of the same opinion, then, as Miss Hodgkinsou — that a school for higher purposes at Rushen would be tolerably well attended ? Witness: It is according to what s rt of a school it would be, and what the terms would be. I do not think pan-nts would pay as high tees as Miss Hodgkinson stated. I think 7s 6d a quarter would be as much as they could afford to pay. The Chairman : Of course 78 6d a quarter would not pay for it. 544. — Mr CowELL : Supposing such a school were established, with a fee of anything like 15s to 20s per quarter — do you think parents would make a sacrifice, and send their children to school in any numbers? Witness : You might get 20 to 30. The Chairman : Not more ? Witness : I am afraid not, 545. — Mr JouQHiN : Supposing the fee were 10s — would many send their children then? Witness: More would, no doubt. 546.— Mr JouGHiN : The lower you went the more children there would be ? Witness : No doubt that would be the case. 547. — Mr JonoHiN: How munydoyou think would go if the fee was 7s 6d per quarter ? Witness : Perhaps 40 would go. 548 — The Chairman : Are you confining that remark to children at present attending the elementary schools, or are you taking in the children contemplated by Miss Hodgkinson — the middle class ? Witness : I am taking the whole parish. 549.— The Chairman : It a central Higher Grade School were erected for this district — the four parishes — which, in your judgment, would be the best centre ? Witness : I am afraid we could not afford to keep a Higher Grade School in Rushen only, and if it, were anywhere else I do not see what benefit it would be to Rushen. At present the children who leave the parish go to King William's College or the Grammar School, or to Douglas. They have to leave at seven o'clock in the morning to attend school at nine, 550. — The Chairman: You are of opinion that, for practical purposes, we must regard Rushen as a separate district? Witness : I would like to hear other people's opinion on it, but at preseut I cannot see how a school at Castletown would be much benefit to Rushen. 551. — Rev. P. B. Walters : They could get in by 10 o'clock, if the school-time were altered? Witnes : Yes. 552 — MrJouGHiN: Seeing that the Higher Grade School is for advanced scholars, would not they go two or three miles ? Witness: They might, but we are 4^ miles from Castletown. 553. — Mr JouaHiN : Midway would be 2} miles. Would they walk that ? Witness : No doubt some of them would find means to go, 554.— 'I'he Chairman : Having regard to the two diiBculties we have contemplated — the difficulty of distance if we set up a Higher Grade School at Castletown, and the paucity of numbers in Rushen if we attempted to set one up there — hon do you think such a demand as at present exists for secondary education could be best met — by evening continuation classes or by enlarging the present elementary schools, so as to give special instruction to girls in cookery, housewifery, and so forth, and to boys in joinery, &c. ? Witness : Perhaps a higher class in the present schools would be the better way for Rushen, Of course that would necessitate an increase of staff. It would not affect the size (555 ) of the building merely, but the Higher Grade School should be under the direct con- trol of I lie Board of Education. 556. — Mr Drinkwatsr : Do you think a system of scholarships would assist? Witness : 1 think it would. I think the want of it has told against us very much in the past. 557. — Mr Drinkwater : How would you hare them ? Witness : In our schools there are occa- sionally very clever boys, whose pai-ents perhaps are poor, and cannot afford to send them to school long enough. They are taken away at 14, and sent to a trade or to the fis'"irg-i. 558. — Mr Drinkwater: Would you limit it to poorer children, or make it open to all ? . Witness : I would open it to all in the ele- mentary schools, and send them to King William's College, 559. — Mr Drinkwater: Do you think it advisable to send Iheru to the College, or to some central Higher Grade School ? Witness: Either would do, I should think. But a scholarship should include material, books, &e. MR T. W. WATTERSON'S EVIDENCE. 35 560 — Mr Drinkwateb: Would you say "keep," as well? Witness : Well, that would be accordJDg to the examination they would have to pass. 561, — Mr Drinkwateb : Would a scholar- ship be of any use if it paid the fees only, with- out making provision for the child's board? Witness : X think the scholarship sliould go a little further than the mere school fees ; it should include material. 562.— Rev. F. B. Walters : Should it coTer travelling expenses ? Witness : Yes. 563. — Mr Dbinkwater : With regard to the agricultural community, do you tbink that evening continuation schools would be of any use? Witness : I do not know that they would. The present teachers complain that they have too much to do as it is. If you put on them another hour or hour and a half, tliey would complain more. 564 — MrDRixKWATBK : Supposing a teacher were brought round to give instruction in such subjects as dairy work, the shoring of horses, witb practical work and practical lectures, with examination, do yon think they would meet with success or not ? Witness: I do not think they would he generally taken advantage of. A few idight. 565. — Mr Drinkwateb : I would not limit it to age. If these clasKts were open to children who were just leaving school, they might be looked on as lessons, and they would not attend them. But supposing the classes were made open to people who were older, and who might appreciate assistance in the par- ticular line of work they bad taken up, do you think it would be of any assistance to them and that they would join ? Witness : I do not think very many would. The Chairman remarked that the Rev. T. R. Kneale and Mr George Trustrum were not; present, so that this concluded the case for Rushen. MR WATTERSON'S EVIDENCE. Mr T. W. Watterson (Arbory) was the next witness. 566 — The Chairman : You have heard what has been said with reference to Rushen. Do you agree with what has been said with regard to the desire on the part of parents — that it is not widespread ? Witness : I cannot say that I agree with all that has been said. I think there is a more widespread desire for secondary education than the evidence has s'lown this morning. 567 — The Chairman : Both for boys and girls ? Witness : For both. The Chairman : On what do you form your opinion ? On general knowledge, or have you made particular inquiries? Witness : On general knowledge and on personal inquiries made from members of the School Committees, and from the teaching staff in the schools. 568. — The Chairman : What subjects for boys and girls ought particularly to be mentioned P Witness: I should say navigation for boys, and cookery for girls. They are the two essential subjects, 1 should think. 569. — The Chairman : Would you say the desire was so far widespread that it could not be met by additions to the elementary schools? Cookery, I think we must recognise, nii^jht be taught in our elementary schools, with au increased staff, or with peripatetic teachers perhaps in evening continuation classes. Do you think our present elementciry school system could be made available for giving girls the extra education that is needed in his;her subjects? Witness : In face of the evidence that has been (jiv^n to the contrary, I should be loth to say that it can be done. 570 — The Chairman : I am contemplating additions being made both to the structures and to the staff, in each case. Witness : I do not think that would be the best way to meet the requirements. 571. — I'he Chairman : I understand there would be a difficulty in securing attendance in the evening. Wliat would be your idea as to the best mode — that a school on the lines of a Higher Grade School be established in some conv. nient part of the southern district? Wi'iioss : Yes. 572 —The Chairman : I have enumerated the piirisheo. What would you consider the most convenient part? Witness: 1 do not know any part more easy of access than Castletown. 573. — The Chairman : But you have heard what has been said with reference to the difficulty children would experience in going to Castletown, and getting back at night — the expense it would entail, and the time it would occupy ? Witness: Yes, but perhaps that difficulty could he got over. I believe that at the present time certain boys are educated at the College, ''hey do not require to leare home at 7 o'clock. They do not require to go down by the first train. 574.— The Chairman : You think that school hours migbt be arranged which would be convenient for the trains ? Witness : Yes. 575. — The Chairman: But then we have not got over the question of expenses, as it affects the district of Rushen ? Witness : I do not wish to speak on behalf of the people of Rushen. I came to speak more with regard to the demands of the people of Arbory. The Chairman : Aibory is nearer, but we must take Kushen into consideration. It has a population of over 3,000. We are speaking now of the district. How would you get over that diificulty ? 1 agree with you that some- thing might be done to arrange school hours to suit. But still you have not got over the difficulty of expense ? Witness : I would expect to have a slice out of the Revenue. I maintain there is a number of people in the district who are prepared to pay a school fee of 6d or 9d a week. The Chairman: But that would be very largely increased by the railway charge. 576.— Mr CowELL : What is the price 36 MR T. W. WATTERSON'S AND REV. JOHN KEWLEVS EVIDENCE. of a boy's contract ticket, for the year, from Port ^t. Mary ? Witness : Thirteen shillings a quarter. 577.— Mr CowELL : That is £2 123 a year. Witness : Prom Colby I believe it is lOs 6d. 578. — Mr Cowell: You think, having regard to all these difficulties, that still the central institution at Castletown would be the best ? Witness : The only way, I think. 579. — The Chairman : You have admitted that the girls could be taugbt in the elementary schools if the staflf and structure were suited to the purpose, surely navigation could be taught to the boys in the evening continuation classes? Do you say that the boys would not attend at that hour? Witness : I do not think so. 580.— The Chairman: What have you to say with regard to the " ladder " connecting the elementary schools with King William's College and the Grammar School at Castletown ? Supposing you have boys in our elementary schools who manifest strong capabilities of going higher, do you think we should meet the need by giving such boys exhibitions or scholarships to King William's College — to the modern side ? Witness : I would prefer they went to an intermediate school first. I would rather they went from the parish elementary schools to an intermediate school, before being transferred to King William's College. 581 The Chairman : Your judgment is that such a school would be tolerably well supported in the southern district ? Witness : Yes, decidedly. 582.— Mr Cowell : Is that opinion based on the supposition that the building of the school and very considerable grants would have to come out of the revenue ? Witness : Yes. 583 — Ml Cowell : Supposing it meant an increase of rates, would that affect your judg- ment? Witness: No, unless the rates have to be increased to a very large extent. 584.— Mr Cowell : Do you think the people would bear a moderate increase of rates to bring about such a desix'able result ? Witness : Decidedly I do. 585. — Mr Moore : Is it not a fact that there is great scarcity of labour, and a great demand for boys' labour in certain districts ? Witness : At certain seasons of the year. 586. — Mr Moore: And, therefore, parents are anxious to take their boys away from school ? Witness: Not nearly so anxious as the boys are to leave. (Laughter.) 587 — Mr Moore : I suppose the number of those who would let their boys stop after the elementary school age would be very small? Wimess : What would you consider a small number? In our elementary school district we have 130 or 140 children of school age. Oat of that number, what would you consider a small or a large number? Mr MooRE : I should say anything like ten per cent. Witness : Then I would say that we would exceed ten per cent. 588. — Rev. P. B. Walters : In speaking of those boys whom you mean to go to the Higher Grade School, are you contemplating boys who have passed the sixth standard in the ele- mentary schools ? Witness : Yes. 589. — Rev. P. B. Walters: You are not mixing it up with select schools ? Witness : No. 590- — Rev. F. B. Walters: How many pass the sixth standard each year in Arbory? Witness : A very small number. The Rev. J. Kewley : Six or seven, I should think. 591. — Rev. P. B. Walters : If you said that 50 per cent, of those went on with their education, that would supply only 3 to 4 per annum. I fancy if you work it into figures the number would be much smaller than you seem to think. Witness : I think that children, before pass- ing the sixth standard in the elementary school, would take advantage of a better class education, if it were afforded in a Higher Grade School in Castletown. 592.— Rev. P. B. Walters : I doubt if it would be worth doing. I think the boys who are likely to be really benefited would reach the sixth standard before the age of 13. I do not think it would be worth legislating to place the burden of a Higher Grade School on the district, except for those boys. Witness : I would like to sift them. Rev. F. B. Walters : If you take the sieve that I have suggested, it leaves in very few. 593.— The Chairman : You said you thought the people of this district — I am speaking of the four parishes I have enumerated — would not be unwilling for a small addition to be made in the rate, if they could get such advantages as we were speaking of. I see the population of these four parishes is 9,200, in round num- bers. Can you give us any information as to what a rate of Id in the £ for those four parishes would produce? Witness : For the parish of Arbory it would be about .£30. The Secretary : It would be X82 or ^683 tor Malew, .£27 for Castletown, £55 for Rushen, and £23 tor Santon, making a total of about .£217. 594.— The Chairman: Do you think the people of the district would pay a Id in the £ yearly ? Witness : I do not think they would pay so much as a yearly charge. I think they would bear something. REV. JOHN KEWLEY'S EVIDENCE. The Rev. John Kewiey, Vicar of Arbory, was the next witness. 595. — TheCHAiRMAN: You have he.ardwhat has been said with reference to the desire of the parents for secondary educatiou. We have heard two sides of the question — on the one hriud that there is not a widespread desire, while Mr Watterson seems to think it is more widespread than the former witnesses allowed. What is your view of the question ? REV. JOHN KEWLEY'S EVIDENCE. 37 Witness: I think, it the provision were made and opportunities afToided to the parents, they would see the value of it; and I think Mr Watterson is quite right as to the number of parents who would avail them- selves of these opportunities. At present the parents do not understand tho question suffi- ciently well, and have not taken a deep interest in it. That accounts for the few replies sent to the teachers. If the matter had been more plainly put before them, and the objects in view had been more fully explained, 1 think we would have had a different result. 596- — The Chaibman: Then you are of opinion, as Mr Watterson is, that if secondary educ3,tior were more fully explained to them, both boys and girls would desire to avail them- selves of it ? Witness : Yes. 597. — The Chairman : You would have cookery and housewifery for the girls, and navioation and agriculture for the boys? Witness : Yes. With regard to millinery and cutting out, I should continue those fuither than they are taken up in the elemen- tary schools. 598. — The Chairman : IVhat is your judgment as to the beat mode of providing it ? Would you do it by enlarging the staff and structures of the elementary schools, or by scholarships to the existing institutions, such as King AVilliam's College, or by a central institution ? Witness : I see a difficulty in the central institution — a difficulty which other people see too — that is, where a central institution is paid for out of the rates, you will find that the very poor people are compelled to pay a heavy rate to keep up a great establishment which they are not able to avail themselves of. The parents who would be able to pay very high fees are simply benefited by the poor. I am only giving that as an objection. I think there ought to be a central institution of some kind, as far as Arbory is concerned. A great many boys, and, I am sorry to say, girls, too, now ride bicycles. The boys who come from a distance on bicycles, have no difficulty ; and the difficulty of the expense of the train would be got over, to a large extent, in that way. 599. — The Chairman :_Are yoa of opinion, if there is a central institution for Castletewn and the tour parishes, that this would be the best centre ? Witness : I do not think you could have one in any other place. 600. — The Chairman : Would you prefer this to evening continuation classes or to the enlargement of elementary schools ? Witness : I do not think evening continua- tion schools would be of much benefit to the parish of Arbory. I do not think you would get buys and girls to come in the evening. The plan I would prefer above all others — and the most feasible plan, I think — would be the plan of Scholarships — to make use of existing institutions — to the Grammar School, for instance, and the College. 60I. — The Chairman : How are you going to provide scholarships ? Out of rates or out of revenue ? Witness : Not altogether out of rates or revenue, but by the help of both. 602. — Thf Chairman: In that case parents would be paying for the education of the brilliant children only ? Witness : I do not think scholarships should be given indiscriminately or simply by exam- ination. In the olden days scholarships were founded at Oxford and Cambiidge to help poor students to get a University education who otheiwise would not be able to do so. By reducing to competitive exauiinations, scholar- ships do not go in the direction iu which foundeis intended iu many instances. It is those 'loys whose parents at the outset are able to g've them a good education who get the scholarships. Those who on account of poverty were rather behind them have to drop out altogether. 603. — Mr CoWELL : There must be merit, although there may be poverty ? Witness : There must be merit, but I do not think the scholarship ought always to be given to the boy who is first. 604. — Mr CowELL : How do you test the suitab.lity of the boy ? Witness : Because he passes the examina- tion, it does not follow that he should get the largest scholarship. 605 — Mi- Cowell : Would you take into consideration the means of the parents? Witness : Certainly, so as to help the boy who would be likely to benefit. 606. — Mr DitiNKWATEB : Does it not. strike you it would be difficult to distinguish ? Witness : All these things are difficult, but it is a difficulty that has to be faced. It is a difficulty that is faced in other institutions, and the line is drawn. 607. — Mr Dbinkwater: Would you confine the scliolarships to boys of merit? Witness : Where a boy is able but poor, somethingought to be done for him, and it ought to be possible for a boy, even if his parents are very poor, to go to the Grammar School, King William's College, or even to the University if necessary. 608. — The Chairman : That is one of the objects the Commission has in view. I suppose means would be devised that scholarships should not fall into the hands of the children of wealthy parents. Witness : As a matter of fact they do at present. Other scholarships do fall into the bands of wealthy parents, and the danger should be pointed out. The Chairman : It is a matter distinctly before our minds. 609. — Mr Drinkwater: Is not the object of the Education Commission to raise the standard of education ? Would you say that a boy who wants a scholarship must go to King William's College and the University on one scholarship, or ought he not to go to the Grammar School first of all by open competition, and see whether he is fit to go on to King William's College ? Witness : I do not think he should get one scholarship from the elementary school to go on for ever. 610.— Kev. F. B. Walters : Wi.uld it not meet your idea if we did— offer the scholarship 38 REV. JOHN KEVVLEY'S EVIDENCE. at a laeiely nominal value, and increase it in those eases wliere parents showed a pecuniary necessity? Leave the onus prolandi with the parent. The Chaikman : I think we need not enlarge on this subject. I think the Commissioners are quite aware of the danger which Mr Kewley has alluded to, and will carefully con- sider the communication that has been made. But the point Mr Kewley was alluding to was that, in his judgment, a carefully and properly devised system of scholarships for the purpose of assisting the parents of the poorer scholars would be the best means perhaps of meeting the want in this district. ■Witness : That something ought to be done for the purpose of making better use of exist- ing institutions for higher education. 611. — The Chaihman : In other words, you would prefer a system of scholarships to existing institutions, rather than that a new central one should be erected ? Witness : I think botb can be done. I think both might be considered. 612. — The Chairman : What would be your view with regard to the willingness of the district to contribute by rate? Witness : I think there would be very little objection to the rates being increased. I am the heaviest ratepayer, proportionately, for education in the parish, and I would not object to it. The clerjjy are taxed for educa- tion in 0. way that no other class in the Island are taxed. Mr C'OWELL : That is quite new to lae. Witness: Nevertheless these things might as well be understood when they crop up, I do not think the people wovild object to paying a little extra when they see the advantage to be gained. 613.— Kev F. B. Walters : Have you con- sidered carefully who you mean to attend this school ? Are they boys who have parsed the sixth standard, or not? If they are, they will be very few in number. If they are not, you would deplete your elementary schools all round, you would injure your grants, you ■would discourage your teachers, and you would take out of the elementary schooln the element which teachers can really least aiFord to lose — the better and more promising boys — at an earlier age even than 13. Witness : It would be those boys who have passed the sixth standard that would have to go on, 614 —Eev. F. B. Walters : Then, if we go to tbe numbers, we find them quite insufficient to support a central school. Witness : I would like to put it in the power of more boys to do what the few have done before — to get on beyond the ordinary elemen- tary education. Eev. F. B. Walters : We are all agreed on the object ; it is only a question of means. 615.— The Chairman: Speaking generally, and without prejudging the matter at all, it is manifest there will be great difflcultv in attempting to work two systems largely in any district — the system of the educational "ladder" on the one hand, and the setting up of a central institution on the other. Just in proportion as the children avail themselves of the " ladder," you take away the "cream" of the children who would attend the central institution. If you pass the promising boys onto the Grammar School or to King William's College, you diminish the number of those who would otherwise be available for tbe central institution. Witness: AVe have a scholarship at pi-esent from the district to King William's College. AVe might have more than one. 616. — The Chairman : If there were a very few they would not be such an injury as I mentioned, but if you are going to establish anything like a widespread system of scholar- ships, I cannot see hotv you would work a central institution of a new kind into your scheme as well. Witness : I do not contemplate a large number of scholarships. A couple from the Elementary School to the Grammar School each year. That would not be a drain. 617. — Eev. F. B. Walters : Do you think, if the staff of the elementary schools and the buildings were improved, that teachers would rise to the occasion and improve the elemen- tary education ? Witness: I do not see how the teachers could do much more than they are doing at present. Eev. F. B. Walters : But with a Larger staff ; Witness : They could take up navigation, music, type-writing, and shorthand as specific subjects. 618. — MrEYMER: Don't you find, on visiting the schools, that as btandards 4, 5, G and 7 are taught together as one class, that is a great difficulty in providing any higher education ? Witness : I know the elementary school education pretty well. I see the difficulty ia adding anything further to the work of ordinary elementary schools, where they take two class sulijects —singing by note and sewing, and such things. 619. — Rev. F. B. Walters : Would not an increase of staff be an enormous boon to these schools? Witness: Yes, it would be. 620. — Mr CowELL : Have you expressed an opinion as to eV'-ning continuation schools? Witness : In the country it is difficult to get the children together for anything like that. 621. — Mr DhiNKWATER: Do you think if clusses were formed tor teaching agricultural subjects, dairy work, horse shoeing, and so on, that they would be attended with any saccess ? Witnets : There Would be a certain amount of prejudice against them at first, as far as agriculture and horse-shoeing are concerned. As a ruk, the country people have got the idea that the way their forefathers managed will be the best for many years to come. The practical part is better than the theoretical part. 622. — Mr Drinkwater : But this would be practical. Tbe boys are sent round, and they have to do the work themselves. The girls do dairy work, and have to pass an examination. In the same way with horse-shoeing, the boys have to set to work, prepare the horse's hoof, fix the shoe, and put it on. Witness : There would be a difficulty in gettii g horses I,.am afraid. (Laughter.) I do MR WICKSEY'S EVIDENCE. 39 not think it would be worth while going into that at present. MR WICKSEY'S EVIDENCE. 623.— The Chairman : I will now ask Mr Wicksey, of Castletown Grammar School, to give evidence. It is a very important sub- ject — the question of the Grammar School. (To witness) : What is the number of children attending the Grammar School in Castletown at the pi-esent time Witness : Twenty-three. 624. — The Chairman: Looking back over the history of that Grammar School — is that anything like the average number in attend- ance durini^ the last 20 years ? Witness: It has varied between double that number and eight — the smallest number I have had. Forty-three is the largest number, and eight the smallest. 625. — The Chairman: I think the Commis- sioners would like to hear what Mr Wicksey has to say — I ara not pledging myself to any- thing—as to the advisability of the Grammar School in Castletown being made an inter- mediate school between the elementary schools and King William's College. Witness : I think it would be a very useful school. There is evidence I could produce that it has been so. At present there are five boys at King William's College holding scholarships, who have come from the Grammar School. There are no scholarships belonging to the school. There are scholar- ships open to the four Grammar Schools of the Island. There was formerly one for each school. 626. — The Chairman : I understand there are four scholarships from the Grarjmar Schools in this Island to King William's College. Am I right there? Witness: There is one competed for each year between the four schools. The scholar- ship is obtained by competition. 62T. — The Chairman : Then you could not get more than one in Castletown? Witness : Not more than one in one year. But there is " the Caine Scholarship" as well. We did get two in one year. 628- — The Chairman: Practically these scholarships are held during the boy's course ? Witness : Most of the boys do go to the "University. 629. — The Chairman : What is the amount of the endowment of the Castletown Grammar School? Witness : £60 per annum from the Impro- priate Trust, and the rents of some cottages. 630 ^Mr Drinkwateb : And the premises ? Witness : I pay no rent for the school. I pay rates. 631.— The Chairman : Would the Castle- town Grammar School require alteration if it was to be made an intermediate school between the elementary school and King William's College ? Witness : I do not know why it should be. The building was formerly a church. In 1698 the church was built in the Market-place, and the former church was made use of as a grammar school. It consists of a large room, with a smaller room attached. 632. — The Chairman : Having regard to the subjects of instruction that we wish to promote in connection with secondary educ.ition, would you require considerable structural alterations, if you undertook to give that instruction at the Grammar School? Witness : I am afraid I am not qualified to give an opinion. We can teach classics, mathematics, and English, and, perhaps, music and drawing outside. 633. — The Chairman : I think I mentioned, in my opeuing remarks, that in the proposed instruction we included navigation, agriculture, chemistry, woodwork, shorthand, type-writing, book-keeping, drawing, and so forth. Would you require considerable structural alterations to enable you to teach these ? Witness : When I was master of the Grammar School at Peel, I taught navigation. The Chaibman : That is a question of staff — but structurally, is the Grammar School capable of being used for such instruction as I have mentioned? Witness : Up to a certain number of boys. I do not think the Grammar School is a good school as a building ; the light is bad. 634.— The Chairman : With regard to the class-rooms — would you not require a consi- derable amount of new apparatus ? Witness : Y'es — for some of the subjects you mentioned. The Chairman : Then, new apparatus would require new buildings. Mr Moore : Of course it might not be desirable to alter it structurally. It may be best left as it is. A new building might be more advisable for secondary education. 635. — The Chairman : There are no exhibi- tions or scholarships to your Grammar School? Witness : There are no free scholarships at the Grammar School, and I understand from people who have been there that there never have been free scholars. Mr Cudd asked me to mention that he was a pupil early in the century, and he paid. I did not come to Castletown until 1880. Since then there have been no boys free. 636. — Mr MooBE : As far as you know, before that date there were no free scholars ? Witness: There were not; I have it on the word of former pupils whom I can trust. 637. — The Chairman : We have spoken of structural alteration. If it was to be made a centre, you would require additional staff? Witness: Certainly, we should require assistance. 638 The Chairman : Have you thought the matter over yourself — of utilising the institution as it at present exists, as a basis of secondary education ? Witness : My idea was very well expressed by Mr Kewley— that there should be scholar- ships from the elementary schools to the Grammar School only for very clever boys. I agree with Miss Hodgkinson that it would be well to get the children earlier. I think it almost impossible for a boy who gets a scholar- ship at the age of 13 to be afterwards grounded in Latin and Greek and mathematics, with the r^ 40 MR WICKSEY'S AND REV. J. M. SPICER'S EVIDENCE. V expectation of a soholarsUip to King William's Coll.Joje, and thence to the University. 639.— The Chairman : I am contemplating making your school intermediate between the elementary schools and King William's College. Witness : Practically, I think it is a pre- paratory school for King William's College; but is not the Grammar School sufficient if a boy does not go to the University? 640. — The Chaikman : Though I may not contemplate it as an immediate step to the University, I might contemplate it as a step to K.rg William's College. Witness : I think scholarships would be the best way of utilising the Grammar School. 641. — The Chairman : Can you give the Commissioners any idea as to what would have to be done as regards the staif, if your school was to he utilised as a stepping stone ? Witness: It all depends on what additional subjects require to be taught. 642. — The Chairman : Having regard to the branches of secondary education, which are most likely to be needed in this part of the Island ? Witness: My experience has bten on the lines indicated by your Lordship. If you introduce subjects foreign to my curriculum, 1 should want assistance corresponding to those. If the numbers were increased to any extent, the master would want assistance on account of numbers. But I have no means of judging the numbers you want to attend. 643. — The Chairman : Have you formed any judgment as to the desire on the part of the parents in this district for secondary education? Witness : I can only tell by the number of boys attending my school. I have had boys from the outlying districts — from Santon to Port Erin and Port St. Mary. I have seven or eight at present. They come by the early train, and do not consider it any hardship; they have their lunch in the school. 644. — The Chairman: Are you asked to give instruction at the Grammar School on any of these branches that I have named? Witness : Not lately; but many years ago I was asked to give lessons in navigation, which I gave. 645. — The Chairman : Have you had any applications for instruction in agriculture? Witness : No ; but one boy I knew was going out to Canada, and I asked him to read some little book on agriculture. I should not like to call that teaching agriculture. I think a boy who intends to be a farmer should have a gooa general education, and then go to a farmer to leain his business. I teach drawing, but I found it impossible to teach chemistry without a large amount of apparatus. I do teach bock-keeping. 646.— Mr Drinkwatee: What aged boys do you have ? Witness : Between 8 and 16. 647.— Mr Dbinkwater : What fees do you charge ? Witness: They vary according to age — for boys unrler 10 years of age, £3 ppr annum ; over 10, £3 10s; over 12, ^4j and 63. per boy for stationery, fire, &c. 648 — Mr Drinkwatbr : Have you any experience of continuation schools ? Witness : No, I have not. Tnero were formerly night schools in the town. I think they were merely to teach elementary subjects. 649 —Mr JouGHiN : Do you think the Grammar School, as it is worked at present, is better suited for this district than what we term a Higher Grade School, started on the foundation of the Grammar School ? Witness : Yes, I do think so. That is my private opinion ; but I may be prejudiced in that matter. EEV. J. M. SPICER'S EVIDENCE. The Rev. J. M. Spicer was next called. 650. — The Chairman: You are Vicar of Malew, and a member of the School Committee of Malew ? Witnt'Ss: Yes. 651. — The Chairman : Well, what opinion can you give the Commissioners on the general sutject as to the desire for Secondary Educa- tion as we have defined it to-day, in this district? Witness : As far as we have been able to ascertain, in the three Malew schools outside Castletown, the desire is almost nil. Our Schoolmaster in Ba11as3,11a went to some trouble to get a meeting. I was there, and the schoolmaster, and I think one parishioner besides. I think that was the second effort that was made. From conversation with the people, I may say that I do not think there is any great demand for what is termed Secondary Education. At the same time, people would like their children to be taught cookery in the elemen- I I tai'j schools. 652. — The Chairman: So far, the Com- missioners have been informed that, though there is no demand for secondary education, except on the part of a very few parents, yet there is a desire for technical education — education that would be of assistance to the children in their future work. Do you agree with that distinction? Witness: I think there are some persona who would like their children 10 have what is understood by technical education. I do not think there is any demand for definite instruction in Agriculture. I think the genera] idea is that a boy can learn more from atarmei than he would from a paid lecturer who is going round, or from someone who has studied the question from oooks. 653. — The Chairman: Do yourremarks apply equally to girls — that there is no desire for further education? We have been informed that in cookery and laundry work, there is a demand — especially in Ballasalla. Witness : Those are subjects that can be taken up in our elementary schools, and I hope they will be. 654 — Mr JoHGHlN: Aud dairy work? Witness : I never heard anyone mention the surjject. 655. — The Chairman : You are of opinion that such desire as exists for secondary MR T. E. JEFFERSON'S EVIDENCE. *1 education could be met by improvementa in our elementary education system ? Witness: "With the addition that there should be scholarships of some kind, so that a lad ■who was really clever and wished to pursue his education, could do so whether his parents could afford to pay for him or not. 656 — The Chairman : You do not think it necessary to provide secondary education in this district, but you would like to see oppor- tunities for brilliant scholars to e;o hij^her? Witness : I would like to see a higher grade school in every parish, but it is impracticable. Then again, if you wish to add something to the elementary schools in the way of an upper class and an additional teacher — that means at least for the wholi district an addi- tional £1,000 in salaries. There are nine schools in the district, and if you had a teacher in each school to teach advanced suljects, you could not pay him less than £100 a year 657 — The Chairman : You might have peripatetic teachers. Witness : I have been a school manager for ten years, and, when quite a lad, was secretary of a day school. I think continuation classes in the evening would be the best thing, in addition to the scholarships. It has been said thai children would not attend, but even if they went to King William's College the boys would have to work much longer houra than they do in the elementary schools. It may be said they have home lessons, but practically the teachers cannot enforce home lessons on beys. The hours are short compart-d either ■with King William's College or the Grammar School. Bojs who have reached 13, if they had a desire for education, would go in the evening. Then I thick you might have a teacher going round from one school to another. A teacher might go to four different schools. 658 — The Chairman : Supposing we had a peripatetic teacher to give insUuction in laundry work and cookery — still you would have to alter the school buildings. Witness : The only things you would require would be a stove, tables, and kitchen utensils, which would be very easily provided. 659. — TheCHAiRMAN: Tusum up — the needs of the district would be met by scholarships for brilliant scholars to King William's College and institutions of that kind, and by evening continuation schools for cookery and laundry work, and such subjects as the boys in the neighbourhood would take? Witness : Yes. I know there has been on the part of some of the boys in the neishbour- hood an application to be taught Navit;ation, but, then, the number would be very limited. It would be hardly worth while taking it up m the elementary schools. Then, in the elementary schools, the teacher and children have as much as they can do in their hours. If you do anything else, you must extend the hours they have to work. Then, as regards the demand, there are very few children in our day schools who are in the Sfiventh standard. In Ballasalla the average number would not be more than eight. If there was really a demand on the part of parents and children, you would think they would take the advantage of getting a better education in the highest standard in the elementary schools. The Rev. F. B. Walters : Is it true that they can be well taught in the seventh standard ? is not the staff too small to yire any real attention to seventh standard boys? I believe that is the opinion of the teachers. Mr Shepherd : That is the chief point. The Rev. P. B. Walters : If they find they don't get personal attention, they don't send them. 660-— TheCHAiRMAN: Then you put for ward the failure on the part of parents to avail themselves of the seventh standard as evidence that there is no desire for secondary education f Witness: My explanation is that they prefer their children to work when they get to that age. 661.— The Chaiiiman: You think that difficulty might be got over by having con- tinuation classes after they have left school? Witness: Yes. Many of our people are small farmers, employing no Jlabourers. It is only natural that they want their children, as soon as they have finished with school. A father now takes his children from school as soon as they get free from the attendance officer ; although he might like them to go half the year, in practice he keeps them at home altogether. He might send them to a con- tinuation school at night. 662.— Mr Moore : I understand there is a great demand fur children for labour. Witness : Yes, of course, tliat is the difficulty in the way of sending them to a higher grade school. 663- — Mr Moore : I should like to ask Mr Shepherd a question with reference to the attention given in the schools to the 7th standard— the point which Mr Wiiters raised. Mr Shepherd: In regard to that, I may say that in my own school, I have had to teach three standards togeth>r. The boys in standard 7 are taken with standard 6. They do very little extra woik besides Arithmetic. When a boy is over 14, he does not. set anything more beyond a few sums. I fancy the master at Ballasalla is worse off than myself, because he has four standards to teach We cannot give more attention to make the education effective throughout the Bchriol. The staff is not equal to the work. If we had a teacher to each class, we could take up these extra subjects. If ■we had an extra gr.mt for the subject, we could almost pay the teachers. If we had extra masters, we could take Specific subjects ds the Elementary Education Code allows us, and we could take cookery atid laundry work. It. is the weakness of the staff that is the great difficulty. If we had the staff, we could do the work ; it is not a matter of time. MR. JEFFERSON'S EVIDENCE. Mr T. E. Jefferson (Ballabott, Malew) was the next witness. 664. — The Chairman : You are a member of the school committee of liallasalla? Witness: Yes. ^1 12 MR T. E. JEFFERSON'S EVIDENCE. 665- — The Chairman: Do you agree with the evidence that there is no general desire on the part of parents for higher grade or secondary education ? Witness : In very few cases have I heard of it. 666. —The Chairman : What would be the best mode of meeting such desire as there is? Witness: By scholarships to some interme- diate school, such as the Grammar School. 667.— The Chairman : If it was strength- ened and backed up ? Witness : Yes, so as to give boys who wished to go ahead an opportunity to get to a higher grade school. 668. — The Chairman : I can quite under- stand that that is a reasonable view as regards Castletown, Ballasalla, and the district imme- diately surrounding Castletown, but we have to take Rushen into consideration. Would you propose scholarships for the more brilliant scholars of Rushen to an intermediate school? Witness : I should recommend continuation schools for the boys that wished to get ahead. I think they would learn more that was taught. 669.— Mr Drinkwater : You think there would be some demand? Witness : I do not know what demand there would be, but if there was a demand it would be met by those classes. 670 —Mr Drinkvtater : You heard what was said about the demand for children work- ing in the fields? Witness : At this time of the year there is a very great demand for children to work in the fields and for other purposes too. 671. — Mr Moore : Do you think the chief reason for children leaving school at an early age ia this demand for labour, or that they cannot get proper attention in the seventh standard f Witness : I think one of the chief reasons Is the demand for labour. 672 — Mr Jotjghin: With other children is it not the reason that they leave school because they cannot get any higher instruc- tion — they get into the seventh standard and can get no teaching ? Witness : That may be so with some. I do not say it is so with all. If they cannot get any further, they must leave school. 673. — Mr JouGHiN : If there was higber education for some, would they avail them- selves of it f Witness : I think there would be a few. We hive seven or eight at Ballasalla in the seventh standard. Mr Allen (schoolmaster, Ballasalla) : We have 14 boys and girls at present in the seventh standard. 674.— Mr CowELL : You tell us you do not think there is a widespread demand for a higher grade school — how do you ascertain that ? Witness : From what I hear. I had con- versations with people in the neighbourhood who send their children to school. 675.— Mr CowELL: Have you heard an expression of opinion as to what secondary education is? Witness : No, I have not mentioned any subjects to them, nor have I heard them mention any particular subjects. 676.— Mr CoWELL: What is the view of the average Manx farmer with regard to secondary education ? Does he know any- thing at all about it ? Witness : No, I do not think he does. 677. — Mr CovfELL : Then how can he have an opinion? Witness: Be cannot possibly, but he knows what he wants. 678.— Mr CowELL : Can he exprees an opinion that is worth anything regarding a proposition to provide secondary education, if he does not know what it is ? Witness : No, possibly he cannot. But I have heard a good many small farmers say that if their children learn reading, writing, arithmetic, geography, and get a fairly good honest schooling in those subjects of ele- mentary education, they are fairly well satisfied. Except in the case of a man who has a specially intelligent boy, anything further is not much use to them. 679.— Mr CowELL : Is not the desire for education a growing quantity? I suppose people in the Isle of Man at one time would not have sent their boys to school at all unless they were compelled to do so; so that we have made a considerable advance. Are we to be governed by people who are only beginning to understand this question ? Or ought we not rather to consider what is best for them ? Witness : As a rule, I think men ought to know what is best for themselves. The Rev. F. B. Walters : Perhaps so, but not what is best for their children. 680. — Mr CowELL : Taking the average farmer, if the men themselves have but little educational knowledge, and do not understand what an improved curriculum is — are they the best judges of what is wanted for the parish? Witness : Yes, to a certain extent. 681.— Mr CowELL : Though they have not the knowledge? Witness : I think they ought to know what is best for their own interests and their own work. Mr CowELL : Best for their own pockets — yes. Witness : Well, suppose you teach a boy Latin and Greek, and put him to farming, how much does he remember in nine cases out of ten? 682. — Mr Cowell: You see, the proposi- tion is not to teach them Latin and Greek, but to teach them something of a more practical nature. Witness : If you gave them a more practical education it would be a very good thing. 683. — The Chairman : Supposing these lads were taught Agriculture and Chemistry, and had some kind of instruction in woodwork, and ironwork, and such technical and industrial subjects, don't you suppose it would be of advantage to them, whether they took to farm- ing or otherwise ? Witness: Yes. 1 also think cookery and laundry work would be useful to some of the girls. MR J. QUALTROUGH'S EVIDENCE. 43 \( 684. — Tbe Chaikman : 1 hough many of the par.nts may not know what the term " tech- nical " means, they do know whether those subjects that we have named — including Navigation, Agriculture, Chemistry, aud so forth — would be useful to the children. They may have tormed an opinion as to whether such subjects would be desirable. Witness: X have no doubt they would form their own opinions. 685 — The Chairman: I suppose a large number of young men go to sea, and to the fishing industry ? Witness : Yes. 686. — Tue Chairman: Navigation must be useful to them ? Witness : Yes. 687. — The Chairman : And would not teach- ing in Agriculture be useful to those who wish to become farmers ? AVitness : I do not think elementary educa- tion with regard to Agriculture is going to do them much good. 688. — The Chairman: Surely what they do know at present is not the final measure of what may be learned ? Witness : No. 689. — Mr CovcELL : Don't you think we can learn to make butter a little better? Witness : I dare say that could be learned with advantage. 690.— Mr CowELL : Will you venture to say that half the samples are fit to compete with foreign butters? Witness : Perhaps not. 691. — Mr CowELL : How is it they are so bad? Witness : Because they are badly made up. Mr CowELL : Exactly ; because they doa't know their business. Rev. F. B. WALTEiiS : Don't you think a little elementary botany is desirable, so that farmers may know what happens when the thistle seeds? This concluded Mr Jefferson's evidence. 692.— The Rev. J. M. Spieer : I should like to add one word to what I said in my evidence. It seems to be thought by some of the witnesses that Castletown is not central with regard to the southern district. I wish to point out that, ■while Eushen is four miles distant on one side, we have schools which are six miles distant on the other. I am speaking of Malow. Balla- moda is four miles, and St. Mark's is six miles. 693. — The Chairman : Do you wish to suggest that there is no better centre for the district than Castletown? Witness : Yes. Mr Moore : That is generally admitted. ME JOSEPH QUALTROUGH'S EVIDENCE. 694. — The Chairman : Are you a member of the School Committee iu this town ? Witness: Yes. 695- — The Chaibman : What do you say with regard to the demand for secondary educa- tion ? Witness : I do not know that the demand is greater than has been stated, but I am strongly of opinion that there is a need. 696 — The Chairman; I am very glad to hear you draw the distinction. I had drawn it long ago in my own mind. You mean there is an unrealised need ? Witness : An unknown need. I daresay it is pretty well known to anyone who takes an interest iu educational matters. The need, I understand arises in this way — it has been stated in the court this morning with respect to boys in particular, that as soon as they get to the sixth standard there is practically very little else for them to advance in. Supposing a boy gets to the sixth standard at the age of 12, he is compelled to attend till he is 14, but; his time is wasted, he has practically little to do except to attend school. In such instances there should be some course of further instruc- tion which I should leave the Commissioners to decide. But there are difficulties in pre- paring a course, as you will find. 697. — The Chairman : Are we to under- stand that, in your judgment, the parents are not satisfied with the instruction given in th« seventh standard ? Witness : I do not answer for the parents ; they have shown very little interest in educational matters. 698. — The Chairman : It has been said that there is not that individual attention given to the seventh standard that there might be if there were more teachers on the staff. Do you think that is felt by the parents, and causes dissatisfaction in keeping the children at school? Witness : I am sure it must be felt. Some parents, who are careless, do not care whether their children go to school or not. Any person who is interested in the well-being of the chil- dren could not but feel the necessity for some- thing further — for fuller instruction; 699. — The Chairman : Bearing in mind your distinction between the desire and the real need, and looking at it from an intelligent point of view, how would you suggest to the Commissioners to supply that need — in short, what recommendations would you urge upon them to make? Would you supply the need by a central establishment, or by con- tinuation classes aud ccholarsbips to King William's College for the more brilliant scholars? Or could the elementary schools be further utilised ? Witness : I may answer that the elementary schools might be used, but I do not think it would be the most economidil plan — for this reason. We have a number of schools in the district which would have to provide additional staff. The grants would not support that staff, and, consequently, the cost would have to come our, of the rates. You might give the instruction by means of peripatetic teachers visiting the school, but I do not think it would answer the purpose practically. There would be no economy in providing extra, staff in so many schools. Then, I see a difficulty in establishing a District School. We have at present a Grammar School iu Castle- town which, as far as Castletown is con- cerned, might, I think, be utilised for these 44 MR J. QUALTROUGH'3 EVIDENCE. purposes with advantage. But it would not answer the purpose tor the remaining parts of the district; it would leave tne district out of the question. It has been suggested to estab- lish a central school for the district, but the elfect of establishing such a district school would be to overshadow the Grammar School, and the Grammar School would be practically useless, except for a few select children whom their parents might wish to keep separate from the rest of humanity. But if the Com- mission were to take the matter fully into their hands, and establish a district school, without entrenching very much on the pockets of the ratepayers, I daresay the scheme would be workable. 700. — The Chairman : Where could you place it ? Witness : In the central part of the district, as near to the Castletown Railway Station as possible. 701.— The Chairman : If the Grammar School would do for Castletown, why not for the district ? Witness : It would mean a new building and new premises entirely. 702. — MrCowELL: Youhave heard certain evidence showing a large amount of indiffer- ence on the part of parents to secondary education. Do you think if the native Manx were sufSciently educated themselves by lecturers, or if they had detailed information given to them as to the advantages of this education, they would alter their opinions considerably ? Witness : I do. It is partly to ignorance their indifference is due. 703. — Mr CowELL : In other words, it has come on them suddenly Witness : I do not know. Mr CowELL: I mean this particular question of secondary education? Witness : I dare say. Since Mr Shepherd, the head master of the boys' school, sent out those questions, many parents have asked me what it means. The first question they asked was whether it was to be provided by rates. They would go, to a man, for higher education, but the question of rates was a very serious one, 704. — MrCowELL: Are there not many poor people who could not afford to pay more than they have to pay already, but who would take advantage of a school of this sort? Witness : I am afraid the really poor are the most neglectful of their children's education. They ought to be compelled to take advantage of it. 705.— Mr CowELL : You would not allow the children to suffer from the ignorance of the parents ? Witness : By no means. My idea is to make use of the Grauimar School, and put it under popular control, and make it practically useful for this purpose, and then, if it was possible, to increase the scholarships from that Gram- mar School to King William's College for those bright boys who might get an entrance there. 706. — Mr Drinkwater : You would not have scholarships to the Grammar School? Witness : I would make the Grammar School within the access of every child. 707.— The Rev. P. B. Walters : Would you have girls as well as boys at the Grammar School ? Witnpss : I have not been answering ques- tions with regard to the girls at all. The Rev. P. B. Walters : But they want providing for? Witness : The need of instruction for girls is a good deal more limited. If they had one or two subjects added to their instruction, I daresay they could be taught in the elementary schools. 708. — Mr Drinkwater : In your proposal you rather isolate Castletown, and provide for its young people, but you do not provide for the district. Witness: Castletown would benefit largely from the district school. 709. — The Chairman : I think your remarks apply chieHy to Castletown and Ballasalla. You have not been taking into consideration the district I defined — Santon, Arbory, and Rushen ; as well as Castletown. If we had only to consider Malew, as well as Castlelown, we might make the Grammar School available as an intermediate school ; but persons living in Rushen could not utilize it. Witness : I am afraid it would be foolish economy to spend money on the present Grammar School for that purpose. 710. — The Chaikman : Supposing we had one central school, where would jou place it ? Witness : As near the Castletown Station as possible. That is if the rest of the district . concur in such a course; it would largely / depend upon them. 711. — Mr CowELi, : As you said, it is not merely a question of what they want, but as to what is needed. Witness : I am firmly of that opinion. I would like the school to be establishe 1 as free from rates as possible. If we touch the rates, they will have a say as to where the school is to be placed. 712 Mr CowELL : Would you like to say what fees the parents would pay for this education ? Wicneas : T am satisfied they would all be \ prepared to pay from lOs to £1 per quarter. 713, — Mr CowELL : You know the charge in Douglas Higher Grade School ? It is 9d a week, and books extra ; it is under 10s a quarter. Witness : I think I have heard it is a Is a week. Mr CowELL : Do you think that would be paid here ? Wi ness : I quite think so. This concluded Mr Qualtrough's evidence. 714.— The Chairman (to Mr Wicksey): Would you kindly tell me how many 'if the 23 boys you have at present at the Castletown Grammar School come from Rushen? Witness : At present there are seven. I have boys from Port St. Mary and Port Erin. They come by the early train, and stay in the Grammar School until the school opens. They MR E. CRELLIN'S AND MR B. CLAGUE'S EVIDENCE. 45 hare their dinner there. They study their lessens, if thej have time, in the school. 715.— Mr CowELL: How does that woik in winter? Mr Wicksey: The train is later in the winter, aud there is a fire in the school. The trains aro net inconvenient at present. They used to catch the five o'clock train home. They do not find any hardship with the morn- ing train. I think they rather like if. A Very good way would be to get the Railway Company to put a train on. MR EDWARD CRELLIN'S EVIDENCE. Mr Edward Crellin, J.P., Chairman of the Castletown Commissioners, was next invited to give evidence. 716. — He said: I have nolhind«kinson : I have had childrfn at school to 15 or 16 years of age. They only stay away for a short lime during the summer mouths, and then tliey come back agaiu. MR ROBERT CLAGUE'S EVIDENCE. Mr Robert Clague (Castletown) was the next witness. 729. — Mr Cowell : Do you think a school for secondary education is required in the district ? Witness : I have children of my own, and have to send one to Douglns. It is very incon- venient and very expensive. 730. — Mr Cowell: Are there many like you ? Witness: There are several in the town; and many could not afford to send their ch-.ldren ail the way to Dou^Us. Even if a boy does pass through the Grammar School, it is very expensive. In most cases parents are not able to send them to College after that, if they require a better educati-n. I have several young boy, and girls, too. I would like to educate them as far as I can ; but when it goes beyond my means I have to be satisfied with what I can get. 731. — Mr Moore: Do you think the educa- tion given at the Grammar School is the best suited for the present day ? WitU'-es : I would not like to say but what the Grammar School is a \fery good place; but the other school, if I understand it properly, might be the best after a boy gets to be 14 or 1-5 years old. 732. — Mr Moobe : It is a question which course is best adapted for the district. Witness: Navigation should be known, but it is no use to a boy who does not go to sea. Mr Wicksey : That is in the Grammar School curriculum. 733 - Mr Drinkwater : How many boys have you ? Witness : Pour. I send one girl to the Higher Grade School at Douglas. Mr Dkinkwateb : You spoke of the cost. The cost to the country is between £7 and £9 per child per annum in the Orginised Science School, and the fees you pay are 10s per quarter. 734.— Witness : But it costs me £2 a quarter fcr railway fares. I would not object 46 INQUIRY AT KAMSEY.-CHAIRMAN'S STATEMENT. to pay a rate for a higher grade school in the district. This concluded the examination of witnpss. The Chairman (uddreBsing those present): We are inquiring? about four different dis- tricts in I ha Island, as I have pointed out already, and different views seem to pnVdi] in different districts as to the willingness to pay some rate. We have come to no conclusion as to what we shall recommend, but we shall probably bate to make different recom- mendations as to different districts. If in some distiicts there is a willingnees to pay a rate, and in other districts agreatunwilling- ness to pay, people must not find fault it those diFtricfs that are willing to pay come off better than those that are unwilling. If in any district there is an unwillingness to pay for higher education, the people of that dis- trict will have no right to complain if they do not receive the same advantages as a district where the people are willing to pay for them. Everybody wantseverything.but itis the person wlio is willipg to htlp himstlf who is most likely to come off best in the long run. I think it may be of advantage to the people of the Island generally, if that is understood. THIRD DAY— Ramsey, Tuesday, July 21st, 1896. The Commission sat in the Court House, Kamsey, to-day. The members present were — TheLord Bishop (Chairman), Mr G. Drink- water, .T.P., the Rev. F. B. Walters, M.A.; Mr A. W. Moore, H.K., Mr J. Joughin, H.K., and MrJ. E. Cowell, H.K., J.P. There was a fair attendance of the general public, and among the assembly were the High-Bailiff (Mr J. C. LaMothe), the Vicar of St. Paul's (Kev. G. Paton). and other prominent townsmen. The Chairman, in opening the proceedings, Slid: Mr High-Bailiff, and gentlemen, this meeting of the Commission appointed by the late Lieutenant-Governor of the Island, is for the purposes of inquiring into the question of Secondary Education. We have been directed to inquire not merely what provision already exists in the Island to promote this end, but whit provision should be made for the purpose, and what is the best method of enabling brilliant scholars in the elementally schools to pass to King William's College, or some other similar institution. We have been directed also to inquire as to the best mode of giving eff-'ct to the report of the Commission appointed some years ago, and presided over by my pre- decessor. Lastly, to inquire into the scope of present legislation, and what further legislation is needed, if any, tor the pro- motion of the object in view. It was decided by us that the Commission should hold sittings far the purpose of inquiry in the four towns of the Island — Douglas, Peel, Ramsey, p.nd Castletown. We have already held inquiries in two of the towns — Douglas and Castletown — and we are here to-day at Hamsey to continue the inquiry. The points on which we wish to receive information from the witnesses are, first, as to the need and the desire for higher educa- tion in this Ramsey district. Allow me to point out that I draw a marked distinction between these two terms, the need and the desire. I need hardly point out that a person may earnestly desire a thing, and yet not really need it. On the other band, a person may really need a thing for which he has not an earnest desire. Therefore, when we put the question, " What is the desire in the Ramsey district that secondary educa- tion should be further promoted ?" you must not think that if the answer is that there is no such desire, that the Commission will neces- sarily come to the conclusion that there is no need. Persons may not ytt form a clear idea of secondary education, or the branches of instruc- tion included in that grneral term. Therefore, you must leave the Commission to judge, not merely what is the desire, but what is the need. Then, in addition to inquiring as to the desire, and need for such education, the Com- mission have to inform themselves, by the evi- dence of witnesses, as to what agencies already exist, and as to the best means of improving or extending those agencies, whether it would be better to estiblish a central Higher Grade School in the district, or whether, on the other hand, it would be better to avail ourselves fully — more fully than hitherto — of the elementary system, and endeavour to devise some method by which brilliant scholars in the elementary schools could be passed by scholarships to higher institutions. As at Cas'Ietown yesterday, I think it desirable to give one or two definitions. When I speak of the Ramsey district, so far as it concerns this inquiry to-day, I refer to the town of Ramsey, with is two parochial districts of St. Paul's and St. Olave'8, and likewise the parishes of Andreas, Jlaugliold, Jurby, Lezayre, and Bride. There is another most important defi- nition to be given. I think many of our friends are a little bit puzzled by the term "Secondary Education." Therefore, I think it would be well if I enumerated the different branches of in- struction included in that general term. When we speak of Secondary Education, we include instruction in navigation, in agriculture, in chemistry, in book-keeping, in shorthand, in type- writing, in joinery, in cookery and laundry work for girls, and music, together with other brauches of instruction. The Commissioners MR E. FENNAH'S EVIDENCE. *7 will of oourst^, havfi to fake several tltinijs into considevalion, as for inatance, the williiisi. ness of tbe people to belp themselves in the matter, and I should like to say here, to-dHy, what I said yestTday at Castletown, that if the Coramissioneni find in one district far more willintjness than in another on the part of the people to help themselves, that will bave to be tnken into consideration in any recommendations they may make in their report. It must not^ therefore, hereafter be thought that th-^ Commissioners have been guided by favouriti.^m in recommending any greater advantages in one district than another, for the wil'i-.ignees of one dist'itt more than another to make a sacrifice for further Secondary Education will have to be t kon into consideration by the Commissioners in making their report. I have one other word to say, and tl.at is that we very much regret, that owing to professional engagements at Douglas, oiie member of the Commission, who is deeply interested in tlia whole movement, I mean Mr Ring, is unable to be present to-day. The Commission feel the loss they sustain by his absence, and so will the public, I am sure. I think it will be for t'le general convenience of all here to-day if I say the Commissioners have made up their minda to take the Kams^y witnesses first. This will occupy them till luncheon time, and then they propose to take the witnesses from the outlying districts in the afternoon. With these preliminary remarks, I will now call on Mr Fennah to give evidence on the subject. MR EDWARD FENNAH'S EVIDENCE. 735.^The Chairman : Mr Fennah. you are a member of the Teachers' Association, and, likewise master of the National School at Eamswy ? Mr Fennah : Yes. 736. — The Chaikman: The Commissioners have already received a report from the Teachers' Association,and there are some ques- tions they would like to put to you about it. You have made inquiries in this district as to the desire for secondary education, and you have formulated the result in the return you sent to us ? Witness : I did, 737. — The Chairman : I observe you ex- press two opinions aa to probable attendance. First, in the tabular part of tbe report, you estimate that there will be about &J children, boys and girls, who will probably avail them- selves of secondary education in this district; then, in another part, you say that in your judgment there will probably be about 100.'' Witness : In the estimate of 69 one elemen- tary school was omitted, but included in the 100 when later on T received the information. 738.^The Chairman : Then we are to take it that a hundred is the highest number you think would avail themselves in this district of the opportunity of obtaining secondary educa- tion? Witness: I should n(tsnysi>; that is only nn approximate numb. r. What I mean is, there would be probably more than a hundred; but I fix that as a possible minimum. The Chairman : You refer to the whole dii-trict I have defined to-day ? Witness : Yes ; to the whole of the northern distrii t. 739 —The Chairman : Will you tell the Commissioners what brHUches of higher educa- tion, in your judgment, are desired by the parents in this district? Witness: N'avigation, with mathematics as a complem.-nt; agriculture, sotie form of manual work, mechanical drawing, book-keep- ing, mensuration, land survejiog, and possibly one or two foreign languages. 740.— The Chairman : Modern also ? Witness: Yes; modern. 741.— The CHAIRM4N: What subjects for girls ■; Witness: D .iry work, poultry rearing, cookery, laundry work, dressmaking, and, possibly, bock keepiu!^ and shorthand. 742.— The Chairman : Now, I will ask you are tnere any of those suljects that could be taught in connection with the existing elementary schools ? Witness : Under altered conditions they could, but not under present conditions. 743.— The Cbairman : They could, so far aa the Code is concerned ? Witness : Yes. 744 —The Chairman; Then, so far as girls are concerned, the elementary schools might be made to meet their educational needs? Witnets : Yes. 745.— The Chairman : Will you tell us, broadly speaking, what alterations would be required in the elementary schools, first as to the provision for teaching, and next as to structures — would they be considerable f Witness : I think so. Probably the subjects would require special teachers, for I am afraid it would be difficult to find one person having the ability to teach all ^f them. The Chairman : My question refers to girls. Witness : To girls only ? The Chairman: Yes, take girls first. It is a large district. Do you think, so far as the girls are concerned, that, with the present school buildings, practical teachers could sup- ply the need for instruction in the subjects you luentijn ? Witness : I do net think so for the whole of the nortj. 746. — The Chairman: Would it not entail a considerable alteration, structurally, in the buildings to teacb cookery satisfactorily ? Witness : Not for leaching cookery alone, but there would have to be a certain amount of room provided if both cookery and dairy work Were taught, for which the present accommo- dation would not be suiEcient. 747.— The Chairman : As regards the sub- jects mentioned as those needed for gu is, and which would be required to be taugUt in this district if this movement is promoted, would the present buildings be sufficient for them? Witness : I do not think so, because we ehould require a separate room for this kind of 48 MR E. FENNAH'S EVIDENCE. instruction, and most of the buildings only contain two rooms; so that it we have one room monopolised in this way it would leave merely one room for the remainder of the ele- mentary work, which would be a practically unworkable state of things. 74,8 —The ' HA.IRMAK : Then, if the present school buildings in the district are not suita- ble for giving such instruction, the inference is that it will have to ba given at a central school ? Witness: I do not fee that any other c in- clusion can be come to. 749. - The Chairman : Having regard to the size and widespread character of the district- where would you place a central school ? Witness : I should say Kanisey would be the most suitable. 750. — T'he Chaieman : How would children get there daily do you think ? Witness : I suppose they would have to remaiu in tonn the whole weelc There are children at the present time who remain in town the whole week, and go home at week- ends, and who attend whit may be termed secondary schoois. 751.— The Chairman : Is instruction given in Eiirasey in private schools, or other elemen- tary schonls. in subjectj which you refer to as needed by the district ? Witness: In some of them, but not all. Modern languages, bock-keeping, shorthand, manual woik, and possibly mechanical draw- ing are given, I fancy— I think it safe to say those are uiven— but I do not think instruction in agriculture or navigation is given ; nor, as far as girls are concerned, are the subjects of cookery, house-wifery, dairying, poultry rear- ing. bee-keeping, laundry work, or dressmaking taken up. 752 — The Ch a MAN : Coming 1 the subject of evening continuation schools, can the need be supplie 1 by them ? Witness : Not entirely, I think. 753.--The Chairman : Take evening con- tinuation schools with scholarships to pass on the more brilliant scholars in the elemen- tary schools to ICing William's College or the Higher Grade School at Douglas, cnuld the need bo .supplied 1 y these means combined ? [Witness : I da ret ay it might be supplied in that way; but I question whether it would be satisfactory. 754.— The Chairman : Now I will ask you a question upon what is a mere matter of opinion — do you think when this matter becomes more thoroughly under -tood in the Eamsey district, people will be willing to help themselves by submitting to some further education rate ? Witness : I have very little doubt about it. 755 — The Chairman I am not suggest- ing that the whole of the expense would have to be borne in that way ; but it the Com- missioners recommend a Higher Grade School it might involve some increase of rates. Can you tell me wnat is the rateable value of the district ? Witness : I cannot. Mr Garside ^the Secretary) : A penny in the pound would realise £90 tor Rimsey, and i!320 tor the whole district. The Chairman : Then it is clear that even a penny in the pound would do great things. I do not think I have any further questions myself to put to this witness; but; perhaps some other member of the Commissioa uiay wish to put questions to him. 756. — Mr CoWELL : I noticed that you re- ferred, in answer to quostions this morning, to private schools of a h'ghev grade in Ramsey. Have you any idea what the fees are iu those schools? Witness : No, I have no figures at my com- mand to which I could refer. 757- —Mr CowELL : Do you think the feeling in Ramsey — I will not take the country now— is stronyiy in favour of having a Higher Grade School; such as that at Dougl.as? Witness: I consider that, taking into account the very short time the proposal has been before Eamsey, there is a very healthy feeling in its favour, 758- — Mr CowELL : Do you think there is muci iiinorance — I am not using the word in an offensive sense -do ym think there is much ignorance as to what a Higher Grade School is ? Witness : A great deal. 759 — Mr CowELL : Supposing, say, the householders of Ramsey were informed fully as to what w.as meant by a Higher Grade School, what would be the effect, in your opinion? Witness: I tiiink it would have this effect Those who know anything about it are, as I think you know, generally in its favour; some whodonrt know do not express an opinion; and those who are indifferent express an .adverse opinion. I think the effect on those who do not express an opinion being informed of the real purpose of a Higher Grade School would be that they would express an opinion in its favour. 760. — Mr CowELL : Then I take it you believe that the good souse of the public, if well informed, would be in favour of such an institution as a Higher Grade School? Witness : I do. 761 —The Chairman: Does that apply to parents who send their children to elementary schools ? Witness : Yes. 762— The Chairman : I suppose the parents assume that the charge would be the same as at Douglas, which is 9d per week, coming to about 1-, including books. Witness : That is my opinion. 763. — The Chairman: What I mean is, have the public got a clear ide>a of what the charge would be ? Witness : 1 do not think it is a question of paying a fised fee. I have beard many people Bay that they would be quite willing to pay Bnything reasonable^ and 91 is quite a reason- able sura. 764. — The Chairman : Supposing they were told that such a school charge would be some- thing like 1.53 a quarter, what do you think the effect of that would be ? Witness : It might have some effect in decreasing the number that might be in favour of such a school, but I do not think there would be any material decrease. MR E. FENNAH'S EVIDENCE. 49 765 — Mr Drinkwateb: Assuming the cost of a Higher Grade School would be about .£5 or £n per bcholar, in addition to the fees, do you think the country would approve of the addilioniil i ate of taxation? Witness: I do not quite understand the question. JIi- Dki.skwater: The RAyal Commis- sion on Higher Educatiou in En^jland esti- mated the cost of a Hifjher Grade School at aboul XIO 10 Jl' wr head. I estimate the cost of tue school at Dounlns at considerably less than that. It might be put down at .£8 per head per aonnm, ot which the fees will amount to about ^3, leavingr £5 or .£6 to be found out of the rates or out of the general revenue. Do you think such a charge would be acceptable in the couLtry ? Witness : Prom fi:jures given this morninsf, I gather that a rats of twopence in the pound Would be suiiioient. 766. — Mr Drinkwateb : It would supply the Cost of about 100 uuildien ? Witness : , Yes. 767. — Mr Dri.nkwater : And you think the country would bd prepared to go to that extent ? Witness: I think so. Mr Drinkwateb : Supposing a Commis- sion should come to the conclusion that a Higher Grade vSchoi>l would be t jo expensive, do you think it feasible that, by addin>{ to the present school buildings, education can be carried on further than it has liitherto been carried on iu the Board Schools? Witai-ss : I think so, but i do not think that by establishing a Hiin schools ? WitnfS.-: : Evening schools have been tried, and have be>-n fuiily successful for the time, but to evening schools there should be soma support in the way of capitation, or something to encourage parents to send their children. 798. — Mr Drinkwater : You agree that some'hing is wanted to supplement the edu- cation of the children after they leave the elementary scliools ? Witness : 1 think very material assistance to the work of education would be given by the establishment of eveniig continuation schools. 799. — Mr Dri>:k WATER : You would not limit the age ? Witness : No. 800. — Mr Drinkwater: In your experi- ence of conliauation ictiools, were they most successful with chil'lreu who had just left school, or with older persons? Witness : I think with older children. 801. — The Chairman : Then for the present, I understand, you hold that it is better to utilise th^ elementary schools i. s tar as poss^ible by modifying the curriculum, to form ev-ning continuation classes, and lo institute scholar- ships In that way you think that, for the present, the educational need i)f the district could be best met, rather than by the estab lishment of a central school ? Witness : Yes. 802. — The Chairman: Do yon]think,if such an education was given, it would create in the district a desire for something fuither ? Witness : I think it probable it would tend that way. 803.— The Chairman : Do y u consider there is a readiness on the part of the people in the town of Ramsey itself, as distinct from the outlying districts, to avail themselves of secondary education? Witness: I can hardly speak for the town, but I should think, if an opportunity was offered in the town for secondary or technical education, it would induce persons to take advantage of it. 804<. — Mr Cowell: You seem to think that it would be an advantage that such education as we have been speaking of, should be carried out in the present elementary schools, possibly with some improvement in the buildings, but at all events in the present schools. Do you know whether the present staff of teachers in these elementary schools do or do not complain generally of being overworked with their present work ? ■Witness : It would require an increase of the staff, but the work could be done if the staff was increased. 805 — Mr CowKLL : Suppose, in country schools, where there would be a necessity to add to the staff, do you think it better to do that, rather than to have one convenient central school with an efficient staff? Witness: Unier the present circumstancea, I think it would, 806. — Mr CowELL: Do you think it would bo less expensive to the district ? Witness : I do not think it would be mora expensive. 1 do not knoiv what the cost of a central school would be. 807. — MrCowELL: I may take it for granted that you think it would be necessary to increase the staff of all the country schools? Witness: No, I don't tLiak it would be necessary to increase the staffs of all schools. I think we should try to induce the prescnb teachers in some schools to do all the work theuj selves. 808. — MrCowELL: But with the apparatus that Would be required, would not the elementary schools be too small? Take the lessons in wood work, for instance, that it ij proposed to give in country schools, would the present schools be large enough ? Witness: I think it possible to extend the class-rotmis so as to meet the requirements in wood work, which would require more space ttjan the ordinary lessons. 809.— Mr CoWELL : Do you not think that, if such education is to be attempted as we have been referrini; to, every school in the dis- trict will require some additional accommoda- tion in the shape of room and apparatus ? Witness : I do not think in rural districts it will be necessary to do much in thit way. 810. — Mr CowELL : What would you say in respect to the town of Rimsey as to the necessity of building schools ? Witness: I think in the town it would be necessary to build schools for the purpose of industrial or technical education. 811. — Mr CowELL : If it were necessary to build such a school in Ramsey, do you not think there wouH be certain demands upon it from the country districts for boys who show ability ? Witness : Yes. 812. — Mr CowELL: So, as a matter of fact, the school in Ramsey would in practice become a central school ? Witness : Yes, in the course of time it would. 813.— Mr CowELt: I know you have had considerable experiecce of the lives of people in the country : in your opinion, what becomes of the majority of boys and girls bora and bred in the country? Witness: Tbey become farm labourers; a small proportion become masons, joiners, or smiths. 814. — Mr CowELL : Could you say what pro- portion of the boys and girls remain in the parishes in which they were born? Witness : I think the parishes vary a great deal ; I would not like to undertake to say. Mr Co WELL: As a matter of fact, a great many boys and girls leave the country 52 REV. G. BATON'S EVIDENCE. parishes and come to the towns, or go lo England ? Witness : A certain portion. 815.— Mr CowELL: I suppose you think it necessary that they should be instructed in more than aijriculture? Witness : Ob, certainly. THE KEV. G. PATON'S EVIDENCE. 816. — The Chairman : You are Chaplain of St. Paul's and a member of the School Committee, and have known this district for many years ? Witness : Ye?. SIT. — The Chairman : Have ycu formed any opinion as to whether secondary education would be n boon, and would meet a need in this neighbourhood? When I say need, I do not mean present desire — but would secondary education, in your judgment, be a great boon to this neighbourhood ? Witness : Do you ask me my opinion, or the opinion of my neighbours? The Chairman : I am asking your opinion. Witness : Well, i have always had a strong opinion in favour of evening continuation schools or classes of some kind. I have always been in favour of them, and in earlier days we had them in Ramsey, before education was made compulsory. 818. — The Chairman : Did those evening continuation schools give instruction in those branches we have defined as secondary education ? Witaess : They were hardly continuation schools. I should rather call them supple- mentary schools. 819. — Mr CowELL : For the town of Eamsey ? Witness : They were for neglected children in Ramsey. 820. — The Chairman : That hardly answers the question I put. The question I just addressed to you was to elicit your opinion whether there was a need in this district, apart from the desire for instruction in navigation, agriculture, chemistry, book-keeping, short- hand, typewriting, cookery, joinery work, music, and the other subjects already mentioned? Witness : I think certainly there ought to be something supplementary to the elementary system. 821. — The Chairman : Then comes at once the second part of my first question, is there also the desire for such instruction ? Witness : I have not heard such desire expressed. 822. — The Chairman : Do you think that arises from ignorance of the meaning of secondary education ? Witness : In some respects. 823.— The Chairman : Are the Commis- sioners to understand that, in your opinion, it would be a boon to have such instruction in the district ; and that people would probably have a desire for it as soon as they came to know what secondary education really means ? Witness : It would be a good thing if they availed themselves of it ; but that I am not so sure about. 824<.^The Chaibman: In your opinion, could elementary schools be made more available for such teaching than they are at present ? Witness : I do not see that under the Code they could be. 825. — The Chairman : Could not cookery and laundry work be taught to the girls? Witniss: They could be by adding to the staff. There is nothing I have been wishing for more than that instruction in cookery should be uiven to girls, and even, to some extent, to boys. 826. — The Chairman : Suppose the existing buildings were utilised for evening classes, do you think such subjects as have been enumer- ated could be taught to boys ? Witness : I think they could ; but, though I do not think Ramsey woipe than any other place, my opinion is there is no great desire for them. The Chairman: If secondary education be given in this district, what modi! would you suggest? Would you sit up a central estab- lishment, or, on the other hand, use the elementary schools, and ad.'pt a system of scholarsliips to some higher educational insti- tution elsewhere in the Island ? Witness '• That is a long question. 827. — The Chairman: Then I will put it thus — Would you recommend the Commis- sioners to set up a central school, or would you advise them to utilise the elementary schools still further? Witness : I would do neither. I would advise them to use the existing Grammar School for higher education. 828.— The Chairman: Then you think an agency already existing could be utilised? Witness : I see no gap between the National Schools or Wesleyan Schools and the Grammar School and King William's College. That is my own strong opinion. 829.— Mr CowELL : If you see no gap, do you see any obstacle? Witness : In what way ? Mr CowELL : In the price. Witness: No. I see no obstacle in that. For the last thirty years, I have held the theory that the Grammar School should be made the connecting link btt>teen the elemen- tary schools and King William's College. By a system of scholarships we should be able to get the elite of the scholars from the elemen- tary schools, and at the same time encourage deserving and clever boys. 830.— The Chaibman : Then, the Grammar School would, in your judgmeut, meet the end we have in view ? Witness: Most decidtdly. 831.— Kev. F. B. Walters : What about the girls, we have not heard about them ? Witness : What I have said dues not apply to them. It is a difficult thing to know what is to be done with the girls. What is done for them at King William's College ? Eev. F. B. Walters : That is not the point. We are inquiring into secondary REV. G. PATON'S EVIDENCE. 53 education for both boys and girls here, and my le of Man. Mr CowELL : But I am suggesting a system of public schools where the children of all parents, no matter what their rank in life is, wiiuld be on equal terms; would you be against thnt ? Witness : I object to men getting 12s, or 1-li, or 16) a week being taxed at the same rate for higher education ss their employer, and for that employer's benefit. 839. — Mr CowELL : You are a tsustee of the Grammar >chool ? Witness: Yes. 840. — Mr CoWELL : Are there any funds belongin.; to the Grammar School in the way of endowment ? Witness : Not a farthing now. The High-Bailiflf : There is a small endow- ment — .£2 about. Witness : But the Grammar School does not g.t it. The Chairman : As Chairman of the trustees of the Grammar School, I beg to say there is a small endowment of about £2. Witness : 1 think you are both wrong. The Chairman : Well, it is no use discussinjf that now, as the Commissioners have means of ascertaining exactly what the position is, and I am quite satisfied about it. 841. — Mr CowELL : You are in favour of the Grammar School as the next step to the elementary school in the ladder of education ? Witness : I think it is a very important rung of the ladder. 842. — Mr Cowell: Do you make any sugges- tion in the way of assisting the Grammar School? Supposing it was enlarged, and modernised to meet the requirements of the locality, would you say the cost should come out of the rates, or out of the revenue ? Witness : I am not come prepared with any scheme of the kind, and I am somewhat doubt- ful as to the advantages, Mr CowEi/L : I am only assuming that, as you think the Grammar School should be connected with the elementary schools by scholarships, that you may be prepared to suggest some way in which the present Gram- mar School may be added to. Witness : Certainly ; I would like to see it extended in that direction. 843. — Mr Cowell: Supposing the Grammar School were assisted in such a way as to enable the management to lower the fees, would you be in favour of that ? Witness : All depends how low, beiauso there would be no advantage in cutting them down on one side, and levelling them up on the other. I mean if you take away what yoa give. 54 REV. G. PATON'S EVIDENCE. Mr CowELL : I am not suggesting to take away anf thing. Witness : You were suggesting lowering the fees, whicu is a taking away. 844.— Mr CowELL : We are supposing that the Grammar S-chool is a school ot a character to meet the requirements ot this neighbour- hood for boys whose parents are desirous of carrjing their education further than it can be in the elementary schools ; I want to make the scope of that school wider than it is at present — to make it more accessible, but it must be kept up. Can you suggest any way? Witness : I do not agree with you in your desire. 845. — Mr CcwELL : Then you think the Grammar School should be kept as at present? Witness : Yes ; I would make it a privilege to get into the Grammar School. It should take the froth — or rather the cream — off the other schools. They should pass from the elementary schools by scholarships into the Grammar School, and from the Grammar School to the College, and from the College to the University. 846.— Mr CowELL : Then, with the excep- tion of by scholarships, you would not widen the doorway to the Grammar School ? Witness : No. In the first place, you can't do 80, because the Grammar School is a private trust. Mr CowELL : Not even if State aid were given? Witness : I think you will widen it quite BufBciently if you give scholarships not only to the elementary schools of Eamsey, but to the whole North of the Island. 847.— Mr Drinkwateb: At what age would you recommend they should leave the ele- mentary schools for the Grammar School ? Witness : I would have no limit a? to age, but take the standard they have passed. Let it be the sixth standard, say. 848. — Mr Drinkwater : How many years would you allow the scholarship to run ? Witness : If the scholarship was paid for by the public money, I would suggest that there should be an examination each year to test the worthiness of the scholar. 849 — Mr Drinkwateb : Would you say that the scholarships should cover aU school fees? Witness : Yes. Mr Drinkwater : Would you say board as well ? Witness : That would depend on the position the parents held. I would say so for those sent to King Wi iam's College, and the Univer- sities. 850. — Mr Drinkwater: You would make a distinction between the poorer and the more wealthy people ? Witness: 1 think so. I certainly .think the Bcholarships ought to cover the travelling expenses to and f rem the school for country scholars. 851. — Mr Drinkwater: Exceptinthediffer- ence as to the board, would you make the scholarships perfectly open — a question of merit, simply, not of means ? Witness : I think I would take the question of means also. I think encouragement ought to be given to the poorer people. I do not think, for instance, that your child, or the child of Mr CowhU should be treated in the same way as persons in your employment. 852. — Mr Drinkwater: Does it not strike you that it would be rather a difficult matter to draw a line ? Witness : It would have to be done. 853 Mr Drinkwateb : I think it is your opinion that if there was any increase of rates as the resultit would be highly disapproved of? Witness: I am sure of that. One thing I am sure of is, that the rates are not popular in Eamsey at this moment. 854 — Mr CowELL : Are they popular any- where t-iee ? Witness : I think there are some places where they are not quite so heavy as here. 855. — Eev. F. B. Walters : How many have passed the sixth standard in the school here ? Witness : I can't tell that. Mr Fennah can answer that. Mr Fennah : From a dozen to fifteen. 856 —Rev. F. B. Walters : Do you think the majority of boys are well-educated in the elementary schools ? Witness (Rev. G. Paton): Yes, and their parents are satisfied. 857.— Rev. F. B. Walters : Then, really, we are talking about a provision for a small minority? Witness : Yes 858. — Mr Rtmer : As to this question of scholarships, you say it refers to only a small minority of boys, do you not think something could be done to increase the teaching powers in standards 4, 5, 6, and 7 ? Witness : No doubt of that. 859— The Chairman: If theGramraar School is changed in accordance with your scheme, it would be practically changed into a Higher Grade School, would it not ? Witness : Well, I do not know that that would necessarily be the practical effect. 860. — The Chairman : If the Grammar School, to supply the need referred to this morning, were enlarged, it would be practically a Higher Grade School, would it not? Witness : Yes. 861. — The Chairman : Can you suggest any reason why the Commissioners should not do away with the Grammar School and convert it into a Higher Grade School? Witness : I am strongly of opinion that it would be a great misfortune to Ramsey to do away with the Grammar School. The Chairman : But it would be prac- tically doing away with the Grammar School if we adopted your scheme. Witness : I cannot see it, my Lord. The Chairman: We might just as well start a Higher Grade School, de novo. Witness : I think that my evidence must have given a false impression of my meaning, I have no wish to do away with the Grammar School. I have no wish to start a Higher Grade School. MR J. C. LAMOTHE'S AND REV. A. S. NEWTON'S EVIDENCE. 55 862- — Mr JoOGHlN : Supposing a Higher Grade School similar to that at Deuglas was Btarted here, would there te any need for a Grammar School ? Witness : It would kill it. MR J. C. LAMOTHE'S EVIDENCE. 863.— Mr J. C. LaMothe (High-Bailiff of Kamsey) said : I think that to turn the Grammar Sehuol into a Higher Grade School would be exceedingly good, and for this reason: that, with the exception of the times of my friend Mr Newton, and, before him, Mr Sparrow, the Grammar School, as such, has been a failure for the last Zu years. Mr Sparrow was firtunate enough. Ha Mr Newton is, to keep boarders, and that is where all the benefit comt-s from. I believe if the Grammar School was made into a Higher Grade School, Mr Newton would get away from the Higher Grade School into a private Bchool, and, in fact, be much better off than he is at prisent. I think 't is a right thing to establish a Higher Grade School here. The matter of rating is another thing. To rate the district would be unjust, because you would perhaps have one boy from Bride and none from Jurby, and you would have to late the whole parish to get a few boys into the Higher Grade School. The cost should be provided for the whole Island, and not be borne by one particular district. You cannot give a district ti benefit equivalent to the rate. 864. — Mr CowKLL : You say that as a trustee of the Grammar School ? Witness : Yes. 865. — Mr CowELL : You aay were it not that Mr Newton keeps boarders, and gained by them, it is a failure ? Witness : Absolutely. Take three or four masters back, it was as much as they could do to live — in fact, they did not live. Mr Newton has a splendid school, which is a credit to the town ; but he may be gone to-morrow, and there is no one to take his boarders. I believe that a Higher Grade School, with all the benefits that I have heard are attached to it, would be of great benefit to the town. (Hear, hear.) Scholarships would follow with the boyB who have the ability to rise. 866.— Mr CowELi, : Speaking of the Grammar School, supposing it became a Higher Grade School, should it be in the present building or in a new one ? Witness ; I would sell the old school, and take the Grammar School further away. The great difficulty is that the state of our build- ings at present, and the state of the rates is such, that to build would be absolutely injurious to the people. They could not endure the expense. It would cost a shilling in the £ to build it. The present buildings are dis- gracefnl. (Hear, hear.) We have no infant school, and our National schools, so far as the buildings go, are below par, and the building is in a very poor place. We should require new buildings. I hesitate to tell of the diffi- culties, because of the great difficulty it would be to the town — already the rates are twice as much as Douglas. Unless the Government helps Ramsey, it will be impossible for the people to remain here. They ought to be relieved as far as possible out of the Insular funds. The Commission adjourned for luncheon. On resuming, 867 — Mr Drinkwater : Before we com- mence, I should like to say that, in what I mentioned this morning as to the cost of the Higher Grade School, Mr Rymer considers I have put too high a price. He thinks the elementary portion of the Douglas schools costs about £t per head altogether, with the fees, and the hi^'her portion about £7 — with fees? VrRvMBR: With the fees. Mr Drinkwater : My estimate was abont jE8. and i:2 off for the fees— that is, £6 per head I only made it out roughly, and I wished to rather underestimate than over-estimate it in my statement. The Royal Commission allows from £10 to JB12 as the cost of the higher portion of it, and I thought JE6, and £2 trir fees, would be a fair estimate over here. 868.— Mr Cowell: The cost now, Mr Rvmer, in addition to the fees, is how much per head ? Mr Rtmer: Abont £2 in the elementary portion, and in the science portion, the higher part of the school, about .£5 additional to the fees, 869.— The Chairman : About 80 attend the hi,;her. and 210 the lower, division? Mr Kymer : Yes. 870.— R.-V. F. B. Walters : Is that after the ^rant is deducted? Mr Ktmer : The whole gross maintenance, not cost of buildings, will be about 25s a quarter in the highest division. Mr Drinkwater : I was only asking what the highest portion cost; it seemed to me the elementary schools would provide for the lower. 871.— Rev. G. Paton : Might I ask why the Chairman of the School Committee has not been summoned to attend this meeting? The Chairman : I was not aware he had not been invited, but if the Chairman of the School Committee desires to say anything, we shall be very happy to hear him at the close of the meeting; in the meantime, we must go on at once with our list of witnesses summoned. Rev. G. Paton : I thought it my duty to ask. The Chairman : There is no reason of which I am aware. REV. A. S. NEWTON'S EVIDENCE. 872.— The Chairman : Yon are headmaster of the Ramsey Grammar School ? Witness : I am. 873. — The Chairman : And have known Ramsey for some years ? Witness : I have. 874.— The Chairman: Will you tell the Commissioners, in the first instance, what number of boys attend the Grammar School ? Witness : Day boys, I presume you wish to know There are 62 or 63 at present with me, of whom, say, 45 or 44 are day boys. ' 56 MR A. S. NEWTON'S EVIDENCE. 875. — The Chairman : Now, these boys are, 1 presume, for the most part, drawn from the district which we have under consideration this afternooB? Witness : Almost entirely from the town. 876. — The Chairman: Will you state to the Commissioners what subjects I have enumerated as contemplated under the head of secondary education, are taught by you ? Witness : 1 did not go through the list you gave, my Lord. The Chairman : I will read it again, if you like — navigation, agriculture, chemistry, book- keeping, shorthand, type-writing, joinery, cookery, liundry work, music, and others. Witness : We have chemistry, bookkeeping, shorthand, manual work, joinery ; I do not know whether there is any other — yes, land surveying, to some extent. 877. — The Chairman : Of course, we bear in mind that Mr Newton is giving evidence of what is taught to boys. Girls are left out of the question entirely. Now, what fees do they pay? Witness: Under twelve, 37s 6d per term, and 44i 6d over twelve. 878. — The Chairman : How many terms in a year ? Witness : Three terms in the year. I ought to say that includes all expenses with regard to games and instruction in drill. 879. — The Chairman : Now, in the total number of boya you have mentioned to us, have you any considerable number drawn from the class who pass through the elementary schools ? Witness: Yes; I should think, at a rough estimate, nearly one-half — I am not quite sure. They come to me very young, after they have passed through the elementary school. I have been able to educate people more and more, I think, to send their children to me at say ten or eleven ; it is practically no use their coming when they are 14, and leaving wnen they hnve had a year at the Grammar School. The Chairman: I quite understand that; your answer is: about half? Witness : About half, I should think, of the total number belong to the class who usually pass through the elementary school. I mean about half of them might possibly go to the elementary school for their education. 880. — The Chairman: Have you any reason to believe that the wants of Ramsey are toler- ably well met by the institution which you have for secondary education? Witness : I have. A few years ago we had rather more day-boys, but we used to tap a section of boys who only came for a year, or under two years, and then they had to go to work. They came say at 14, or 13J, and stayed until 14J, or perhaps 15. Those are the day-boys ; I leave the boarders out of the question, because they would increase the average ; they come from England and from other parts of the Island, and do not affect the question. 881. — The Chairman: Now, something was said this morning with respect to making the Eamsey Grammar School, with which you are connected, a school to give secondary educa- tion — a central school for the northern district. Of course not only would you have to change it with respect to making it a mixed school,, whereas now you only give instruction to boys, but you would have to change its curriculum very largely, so as to make it available for giving such instruction as is given at the Higher Gi'ade School at Douglas. Would its character be much changed? Witness : Its character would be completely changed, my Lord, and I think it would be a very great mistake. First of all, I am afraid we are rather at issue as to what elementary and secondary education is. I think I am expressing the opinion of the Incorporated Associntion of Headmasters, of which I am a member, when I say that elementary education should terminate with the seventh standard, but ULfortunately in the Act of 1870 every- thing seems to be defined except elementary education ; there is no definition of what is to be the limit of elementary education, and so it has tended to become more and more diffuse and overlap secondary education, as it does in our higher grade schools. 882.— The Chairman: You said a few moments ago there are some subjects we con- templated under the head of secondary educa- tion which are taught by you, but I presume, for the most part, yours being a Grammar School, the instruction you give Is of the classical and mathematical kind? 883 — Witness : It is, my Lord. I have not quite answered your question, so will jou let me quote this from a document prepared by the Association of Headmasters : — " Secondary Education" means a course of Education which, in addition to instruction in the C'iass Subjects as prescriljeii for Standard VII. of the EJueation Code, includes also instruction in the higher branches of knowledge generally and more particularly in some or all of the subjects : Languages and Literature (Classical and ]\Iodern) ; Mathematics ; any of the subjects in the Syllabus of the Uepartment of Science and Art ; Music and Painting ; Commercial, Domestic, and Agricul- tural Sulijects ; MaDu:il instruction in the use of Tools ; but it does not include instruction in the practice of any trade, industry, or employment. Witness (resuming) : And bo I would say that a higher grade school is not a secondary school ; it is a mixture, and not in accordance with the opinion of the Association of Head Masters. I would say further that higher grade .schools should be taken away from the control of the elementary education authority — for instance, the School Committee of Ramsey — a body that is elected to promote elementary education is not fitted to control and manage secondary education. The two things ought to be kept separate and distinct. The Chairman : I think it is another point altogether, who should have control of the secondary schools to be established, and we may keep it apart. Witness : But I think it bears on your question, my lord, that is all. 884. — The Chairman : You consider that if the Grammar School at Ramsey was changed so as to offer the secondary education that we contemplate you would have very largely to increase the modern side ? Witness : It depends on what the fees would be. 885. —The Chairman : To meet the require- ments of not only Eamsey, but of the district REV. A. S. NEWTON'S EVIDENCE. 57 generally, how many of your 62 scholars take inatruction at the present time in subjects each as we bare mentioned, and which may be considered as on the modern side ? Witness : As a rule, about one-half. 886. — Mr Cowell: You gave us, as the fees at the school, 37s 6d under 12, and Us 6d OTer 12? Witness : Yes. 837. — Mr Cowell : And there are three terms? Witness : There are three terms. 888-— Mr Cowell : Are these figures inclu- sive? Witness : No ; drawing is an extra, and French is an extra; those are the only extras. 889. — Mr Cowell : Then, suppose a boy under 12 learnt drawing} and French, what would the fees come to then? Witness : It ia a matter of addition — 123 more. 890 —Mr Cowell : That would m ike £2 lls6d? Witness : Yes. In case of a boy above 12, the fee is £2 ii Gd. 891. — Mr Cowkll : Is it also in his case 143 more for the other subjects ? Witness : Yes. 892— Mr Cos^ell: Making it £2 I83 6d ? Witness : Yes. 893 —Mr Cowell : You told his Lordship that, supposing the suggestion made this morning were attempted to be carried out in connection with your school, the character of the school would be changed entirely. Explain what yu mean by that ? Witness : Well, you have a number of chil- dren who would come in, and whose parents would be glad to avail themselves of the Grammar School, but whoreally only require an elementary education, and who might get all they wanted in the elementary schools if the standard uf those schools were raised. I take it, if there is any desire, as I gathered this morning, to have a Higher Grade School in Ramsey, it is because it is the result of making education free. But there is still a certain section of parents who wish to pay for their children, and separate them from other classes of children. 894. — Mr Cowell : Following that up, I want to know what you mean when you say the character of the school would be entirely changed; whether you mean that, supposing the boys of very poor parents were lucky enough to win a scholarship in the elementary school, and were tnen to become members of your school, would that be likely to have an effect on the minds of parents whose boys now come to your school ?• Witness : Certainly not. Mr Cowell : You think not? Witness : I do. Mr Cowell : You think there would be no objection to the association of clever boys out of the elementary school, the sons of poor parents, with your boys ?i Witness : Certainly rot, so long as they remained in the minority. 895 — Mr Cowell : But the introduction of that element, would, you think, disturb the harmony of your school ? Witness: Certainly not ; I think it would improve it. 896 — Mr Cowell : Did I understand you to say that, taking the elementary school on one hand and your school on the other, there is no opening in Eamsey for another class of school ? 897. — Witness : I do not think there is, except for an elementary school at which parents could pay for their children, sa as to get for them, if possible, rather more attention. I do not think the solution of the question is in the improvement of our elemen- tary schools, which are understaffed at present, so far as 1 know anything about them, 898.— Mr Cowell: That is admit'ed, I think. But still is there anything more required than eleinentjiry education ? Witness : I think there is, and that can be encouraged by the establishment of scholar- ships, by the reduction of fees, and by grants to the Grammar School. I think the fees might with advantage be reduced to say £1 lOs and £2 23 inclusive, and I believe it would meet with the wants of all. Mr Cowell : You don't quite take my point; I am not now simply on the ques- tion of fees. 1 wich to know this ; Taking into consideration the demands of the prt sent generation, will you venture to say there is no demand for a higher class of education than the elementary schools give— possibly ample — and between those and your school ? Witness : 1 think there is a demand for a higher education than the elementary schools at present impart ; but you cannot teach to those boys who are going to leave at 15 the list of subjects which I understand is the list of subjects taught in the Higher Grade School — mathematics, elementary algebra, sound, light, heat, Latin, French, English history, drawing, and drawing for woodwork, theore- tical and practical chemistry, practical physics, elementary mechanics (solids^, geometry, stage 1, Erg ish language, &■•. 1 think to thrust all those on boys who are leaving school at 15 or 10 is absurd, when they are going to work. 899 — Mr Cowell : Never mind where they are going to; is there a demand to-day in this town and district for a somewhat similar curriculum to what they have in the Douglas Higher Grade Fchool ? Witness : I must say 1 do not think so, not among a larje number — not more than could be provided for at the Grammar School. 900 — Mr Cowkll : Do you profess to deal with a curriculum like that at the Grammar School ? Witness : No, because my boys do not require it ; we cannot give some of those subjects, because we have not the Ecientific teachers to do it. 901. — Mr Cowell : But you have the room? Witness : Oh, we have the room ? Mr Cowell ; Sufficient rooms for this curriculum ? Witness : Yes, but neither do my boys require all these at the age they leave me which is 15 at the average. ' 902. — Mr Cowell: You say they do not require it ? V 58 REV. A. S. NEWTON'S EVIDENCE. Witness : I mean to say they cannot tike it in J you cannot teach it to thein in the time. 903 — Mr CowELL : I want to go a bit further; it is not what the boy or the parent requires What is it the State require* ? What are the demands of the age? Witness : You cannot do impossibilities. 904i. — Mr CowELL : I will get it another way; we will take Germany. Tuu know a good deal about the education in Germany? Witness: I know something about it. 905.— Mr CowELL : You have read a great deal as to its character, and as to^ what the effect of education has been on the wealth of Germany. Is there any reason why the wealth of this country should not have the same advantages ? Witness : Not at all, but I say you must begin at the bottom, in the elementary stage. 906 — Mr CowELL : Well, we understcind «ach other that it is desirable the wealth of thin country should have somewhat simil advantages to the wealth of Germany, if possible. How would you propose to obtaia those advantages ? Witness : I should start at the root, at the elementary schools ; £ believe the masters do the very best in their power, but their means are scanty, and they are far from attaining the level they should. Mr CoWELL : Well, what do you suggest? We have the elementary school and the Grammar Scbool; I want to carry out an improved system, the German system? Witness : You must strengthen the powers of the School Committees, and make them act with t'le despotic authority they do not now possess. Rev. F. B. Walters : I venture to suggest an answer to you; we must do away with the pupil teacher, who is an unknown quantity in Germany. AVilness : Yes. 907. — Mr CowELL : There are many details we need not go into. I believe that the German compulsory law is very strict and com- prehensive ; but, apart from that, cannot we liave in connection with such a school, as we now suggest, more technical and advanced education ? Witness: I think yen might do that by con- tinuation classes. I do not think, seeing the early age at which they leave school, that you can do much more beyond giving tbem a knowledge of elementary science. 908 — Mr CoWELL : Why do they leaTS at such an early age ? Witness : Because the parents want them to get to work to earn their living. Mr CowELL : Is that the only reason ? Witness : As far as I know. 909 —Mr CowELL : Do you happen to know whether, when he has passed the sixth standard, he can advance much further in the elementary school ? Witness : There is the seventh standard. Mr CowELL : But take the rule ? Witness : I think a great deal more might be done. I do not know whether the syst'em of standards is not fatal to what you call the firmness of education, because boys come to me at the sixth standard, and they have to begin at the lowest form but one, and that is unfortunate. 910. — Mr CowKLL : But it has been shown that, owing to the understaffing, the teacher cannot give to the boys that attention which is most desirable to give, and, therefore, the boys do not make that progress that is wanted. Then the parent, finding tliere is not much advance for the lad just then, does not think it worth while continuing him at school. I want to ask you, does not just at that point the necessity arise for an improved technical higher grade education Witness : It seem?, as if it were granted, the parents would allow their boys to remain. 911. — MrCowELL: It is no use, of eourse» unless they consent. Now, with regard to this particular district. Are you forming your opinions on the opinions of the parents, or upon the needs of the district — I mean your general views with regard to the want or non- necessity of such a school? Witness: I am a little bit in the dark. 912. — Mr CowELL : For instance, of course it is quite possible a parent might consider a child wanted no more education, and that parent might be taken as a type of hundreds of parents, but taking another view, in the interests of the State and of the country, and all the other interests involved, might it not be desirable for us to decide that some form of education, and a more advanced form, is necessary ? Witness : I quite agree with that. 913. — Mr CowELL : Are jou forming yonr opinion, then, on what the parents think, possibly in ignorance, or upon what you would think, if you were giving your opinion on the abstract question ? Witness : I am forming my opinion on what demand the parents make for this education. Mr CowELL : But I am speaking of the public generally. This question as to second- ary education only came up lately in the Isle of Man. Witness : The name of secondary is only newly invented. 914<. — Mr CowELi.: But the general public do not know much about the object of this Cjmmission at the present moment, and they do not know what it means; but supposing they had a wider knowledge, and they under- stood the advantages, do you think they might alter their opinion as to the necessity of children going to school f Witness : Yes ; but I do not think they would keep them at school any longer. 915.— Mr CowELL : But do you think they would not? Witness : I have some means of judging, some experience that guides me. 916. — Mr CowELL : Supposing I were to say a first-class education of a secondary character, technical education, could be given in the interests of the North of the Isle of Man for a price or fee not to exceed ISs per quarter, and if the public knew that thoroughly well, don't you think it would alter their opinions as to the children going to school ? Witness : I do not think it would, as regards keeping them at school n longer time. May I REV. A. S. NEWTON'S EVIDENCE. 59 give you my opinion as to tbal ? We had four scholars six years ago ; Bcholarships were offered for three years, with power to prolong, but only one ttayed tlie three years out, the rest leaving at under three or under two years, much against my own will. 1 am all in favour of scholarships, but I must say our scheme at that time proved a failure. Another thing which goes to show the want of improvement in the eleuientary schools is, that of those scholarships one was offered to a district where there were two Board S 'hodls. We could get nobody to compete, and we invited one of the masters to meet us. He said, *' Will you accept lay best boy, and uiy friend will send yon one of his best the next time the scholar- ship is vacant." Well, we accepted it rather than allow the thing to fall through; but it was not a good way of gettin? schclars. Mr CowELL : It is not a good way to argue from particulars to the general, and I want to deal with the general. Witness: But I have given you four rases of boys, and only one remained on the three years. 917.— Mr CowELL : I want to try if 1 can possibly get you to express an opinion on the subject, and I do not think you have quite done BO yet. I want to know, if possible, putting out of your mind what the parents may think — because I am arguing now that the pareats presumably do not know much about this inquiry. Witness : There we are not on common ground ; I say the parents do. Mr CowELL : Tour parents ? Witness : Any parents whose children wonld require secondary education. 918. — Mr CowELL: Let me assume a case. Supposing the majority of parents in the north of the Island do cot know or understand what secondary education is, but you do — you have a close acquaintance with it. Would you venture to say that, in the interests of the community, a superior school for the teaching of technical education is not required ? Witness : I would not venture to say that. Something of that kind is required. I should like my own school improved. 919. — Mr COWELL: No matter; you say it is required ? Witness : Well, I say something for a limited number of children is required. 920. — Mr CowELL : That is not the answer 1 want you to give. I want you to give me an opinion now which is not one intimately con- nected with your school or your work ; but, as an educationist and a man who thoroughly understands the subject, I want you to express an opinion, if you can, as to whether, in the interests of Kamsey and the north, such a school as that is not required ? Witness : I do not think so. 921.— Rev. F. B. Walters: To sum np what you have been saying, you think, in the first place, the elementary schools of Eamsey want improving ? Witness : Yes, 922. — Eev. F. B. Walters : Are they so Hndeistaffed that, therefore, the boys do not get up to the sixth standard in the way they ouj^ht to do ? Witness : Yes. 923— Rev. F. B. Walters: The sixth standard buys are not what sixth standard boys should he ? Witness : No. 924— Kev. F, B. Walters : And I under- stood you would welcome a system which allows the boys who have passed the sixth standard to come to you ? Witness ; Yes. 925 —Rev. F. B. Walteks : And you would be prepared practically to provide for all boys who have passed the sixth standard? Witness : I have shown that — yes, if there were scholarships for them. 926 — Eev. F. B. Walters: What you mean is that you do uot want to tack on to your school an elementary school at 9d per week, but you would be quite prepared to take all the boys who had passed the sixth standard. Witness : Within certain limits. 927.— Rev. F. B. Walters : Of course such limits as Ramsey offers, which are very small? Witness : Yes. 928. — Mr CowELL : There is another ques- tioD, Mr Newton. Would you feel yourself willing to express any opinion as to the necessity for a better school for girls? How are girls to be taught these subjects which are in your list? Witness : That follows our argument that there should be a higher school — a grammar school for boys and a high school for girls, under public management and the control of a Board of Trustees, as your secondary school ought to be, in my opinion. 929.— Mr CowELL : On a similar foundation to yours, but for girla. Witness : A Board of Trustees publicly elected. 930. — Mr CowELL : Would the fees require to be as high as yours ? Witness : I should think so. The question of scholarships may arise again, and 1 should like to say that persons who have allowed their sons to compete for scholarships have always sent them to the Grammar School. 931. — Mr CowELL : Do you think the ordinary tradesman of Ramsey, with a family of five or six, could afford to send two or three boys to the Grammar School and two or three girls to a school such as you have mentioned, and pay those fees ? Witness : Well, it depends on his position. Mr CowELL : Take the ordinary trades- man — I don't mean the big man? Witness : I have one vrho is now sending two, but I cannot go into this without looking through the list of names. Mr CowELL : But take the question of two at your school and two at the ladies' school ; what would that amount to in a year for the tradesman to pay ? Yours might come to something from ^£9 to ^612 per year ptr boy. Witness : But we are supposing it to be reduced considerably. I say it is impopsible under present circumstances, but I am in 60 MR E. COWLEY'S EVIDKNCE. favour of a reducliou of the fees for the GramDiar School, if we could get a grant from the Insular revenue. 932 —Kev. F. K. Walters : A Government gran t ? Witness : Yes. 933. — Kev. F. B. Walters : There is no difference between this and the Higher Grade School, except the difference in fees? Witness : No. 934. — Mr CowELL : It is only the question of the price to pay far it ? Witness : There is a better claps of parents who take their children away from those schools and put them to a school above it. If you want a good article, you must pay a decent price, 935.— Mr CowELL : That is a sound principle, if if can be done; but I want to find out whether your suggestion is practicable, and I am supposing the case of a tradesman or lodging-bouse keeper in Ramsey who may have four children ; two have to go to the Grammar School and two to the other school. Do you suppose it is at all possible in the case of the man I have named ? 936.— Witness : It all depends; if he has a large family he must have his difficulties to face, as many others have to do. If he has two in each school between the ages of ten and sixteen, he would be awkwardly situated, I grant ; but the case would not often occur, and I should not reduce the quality of the whole education, and the staff, to cope with such cases. I have had a hoy recently who came to me from the Higher Grade School; hia parents have come to live in Ramsey on purpose to send him (o me. The High-Bailiff said just now, ** Do away with the Grammar Schools" ; consequently he does away with the whole argument of the last two years, of how much good the Gi-ammar School is doing in the town. People have come here from various parts of the Island because we have got a pretty good Grammar School here in Rimsey. 937. — Mr Cowell: I understand you to say these fees would have to be maintained in your own school, and in the girls' school on a similar scaleunless you get aid from theState? Witness: That is so. 938, — Mr Cowell : If you got aid from the State, would that not alter the whole constitution of the school as to its manage- ment and control ? Witness : 'W ell, that is the new proposal of the Education Bill ; the trustees would then be subject to the control of a division of the Education Department. 939. — Mr Cowell: Would your trustees be willing to do that ? Witness : I have no reason to suppose they ■would not; I should be quite willing, only I would maintain the character of the school. 940.— Mr Cowell: You would raise no objection to interference? Witness : No ; I have urged it for years. 941.— Mr Cowell : Would not that inter- ference be likely to affect you in the matter of the building? Witness : It would require an Act of Tyn- wald to sell the old Ijuildiug, and perhaps, if we had Government aid — say a grant of jE1,500 — to erect new school buildings, the trustees by the fees could pay it off by a sinking fund. 942. — Mr Cowell : So that it really comes to tins, you have not a building at present? Witness : We have not. 943 — Mr Cowell : And if you sold your present property, the sum raised would require to be very considerably assisted by a State grant to enable you to provide other premises? Witness Yes. MR ROBERT COWLEY'S EVIDENCE. 944. — The Chairman : I believe you are engaged in the trade of Ramsey, and have taken an inlertst in educational matters? Witness : I have been six years a member of the Ramsey School Committee, and 14 years connected with the Ramsey Methodists' t-chool. 945. — The Chaikman : What have you to say to the Commissioners wich regard to the need and desire for secondary education ? Witness : That is not an easy matter to give an opinion about. 946. — '1 he Chairman : Do you think it would be an advattage and boon to the neigh- bourhood if the Bubjecta specified were given ? 947. — Witness : 1 think it is desirable that some provision should be made, though it is difficult to provide for the district. I am not quite sure as to the number which would be available for the Highir Grade School. lam satisfied that the Grammar School is almost a necessity here, taking into account the number of families who come to live here. I am fully satisfied that even if a Higher Grade School was provided there would still be a necessity for the Grammar School. 948. — The Chairman : You would not be in favour of converting the Grammar School into a Higher Grade School? Witness : I am not at all clear in my opinion on that point. I think the Grammar School foundation might be enlarged, and, in addi- tion to that, a ujodern side provided, or some further provision made for those children who would like to attend the school at a later age than up to 13 or 14. 949. — The Chairman : Supposing one of these two things were done — either that the basis of the Grammar School were en- larged, and a modem side included; or, it were made into a Higher Grade School, do you think it would meet the needs and require- ments of the district — the town and the parishes round ? 950 — Witness : I think so. I think there is a nece-sity on the part of the district, as well as of the town — but I see a difficulty about the rating. A larger number would be available from the town, and it would not be fair to rate the parishes in the same proportion as the town. Then, again, the population to be drawn from would be of a very different class. There are more of the middle class in the town who would be likely to take advantage of the modern system. If our young people are to take their place in competition across tha MR R. COWLEY'S EVIDENCE. 61 water, they should hare the same opportunities R.8 children in other parts of the Island. 951. — The Chairman: I can quite understand that it would act as a deterrent to any parent to put his child down for a school if he felt that he would be looked upon as increasing the rate on his parish, and that is a ijreat con- sideration in the Isle of Man. Wii uess : There is a great deal in that. 952.- The Chairman : Then, on the whole, what is the best mode of providing for the needs of secondary education ? — by a central school, or would it be better if we tried to strePfjthen the elementary schools as they at present exist, and provide evening schools as well? Witness : I do not think the full need would be met by any one system. We should strengtnen both if possiblt — either strengthen the elementary school, or provide a Higher Grade School. 953. — Mr COWELL : If jou strengthen the eleuifntaiy school, would that do away with the necessity for a Hi^-her tirade School!' Witness : 1 duubt if the elementary school is in a position to be strengthened — at all events as i.ow constituted. 954, — The Chairman: If we strengthened the elementary schools, and, in addition to that, had h .ndsome scholarships to other schools in the Island ? Witness: That would not do so well as a Higher Grade School. 955— The Chaikman : Then you would, on the whole, be in favour of a Higher Grade School in the district? Witness : To a certain extent. I do not think in the district of Ramsey the average for the HigHer Grade School would be" more than from 50 to 70. 956. — Mr Moore : In addition to those attemiiug the Grammar School? Witness: Yes; but I mean the district as well as tlie town, and that includes girls. I think there is a greater demand lor improve- ment in tne eduCitiimuf girls than tliatot boys. 957. — Mr Dkinkwater : I suppose you are cousidering the question of rating? Witness : Only as between town and country, 958. — Mr Drinkwater : Do you think it would be popular to increase the rate for this purpose ? Witness : I do not anticipate any difficulty about that, providing the school was sufficient to meet the ordinary wants of the district. 959. — Mr Drinkwater : You think it would be willingly accepted ? Witness: I think so. I think a twopenny rate would be the outside required for the wants of the district. I think such a school would earn a considerable grant after the official inspection. 960.— Mr JouGHiN: Where should the Higher Grade School be ? Witness : In the town of Ramsey, decidedly. 961. — Mr CowjsLL : You say that not more than 70 children would have to be provided for? Witness : That is my opinion. 962. — Mr CowELL : How do you ariive at these figures, approximately ? Witness : 1 have not gone into any statistics, but from my experience in connec- tion with the Albert-road Schools and the statistics I have seen of llie National Schools here, I estimate that 40 or 50 would be avail- able from the town and possibly 20 from the country parts. 963— Mr CoWELL: How long have jou lived inHams^y ? Witness : Thirty-eight years. I remember the days of McAulej's and Mark's schools. 964— Mr CowELL : Would you be surprised to leain that at one time HO boys went to McAuley's and 25 to Mark's school, when Kanisey was half tl.esize it is at present? The schools I reter to were private schools, at which navigation was a special sulject, and many first class seamen were educated there who took very high rank indeed. A first clats commercial education was also given, imd about the biahest fee was 10s a quarter. Sup- posing these facts to be correct, if 100 buys could be found in these days to pay 10s per quarter, don't you think we ought to be able to go on? There was a Grammar School then as well as now. Witness : There was no elementary school. There was a charity school and two Dames' schools. Mr CowELL: It was the National School under the same class of management as now. Witness: I am not well acquainted with the state of things then. My experience in those days was in the country, where I v as educated. I have never attended a town school. 965. — Mr CowELL : Suppo.'.ing these facts as I state them to be approximately correct, is it not surprising that yuu could only get 70 scholars in Ramsey to-day when the population is nearly 5 000? Witness : But the other facilities for schools in Ramsey now are so different — you cajnot compare those days with the wants of the present day. As to McAuley's d:iys, I believe the prosperity arose from the fact that he was a first-class matter and a popular man. Mr CowELL : While a good master in many respects, he could not hold a candle to the masters of to-day ; but you have not answered my question Witness: I do not think we could get the same number now, considering the other facilities there are for education. 966 —M r CowELL : Have you any idea how many pupils attend the private schools in Riimsey to-day ? Witness : There are a good number I know — principally girls. Mr CowELL : Perhaps jou would be surprised to learn that, including tiie Grammar ' School, 174- children go to private schools in , Ramsey to day. Witness: That includes infants, boarders, and so on 967— Mr CowELL: Superior class with high fees. Do you think tnere is room for a girls' school with a superior curriculum, and such a one as would come within the reach of a tradesman or a boarding-house keeper. Witness: Yes; and I think there is a stronger need on behalf of the girls than the boys. 62 MB J. CALLOW'S EVIDENCE. 9g8.— Mr CowELL : How should the demand be mtt ? ■Witness : By a good secondary school. 969 —The Chairman : You include the girls in the 70? Witness : Yes. 970 —Mr CowELL: How do you divide them ? Witness: In about half — say from 35 to 40 boys. 971. — Mr CowELL : Would you be in favour, wilh the numbers as you believe them to come out, of erecting such a school here as might be correctly described as a secondary school, with an expensive staff, apparatus, and so on, for only 35 boys and 35 girls ? Witness : That is one of the diflSculties that I have had in arriving at a conclusion in the matter. I doubt if our district is ripe in necessity for providing such a school. I am considering the fact that this would not be a compulsory school — that you could not compel children to attend. It would have to be purely voluntary. I do not think that for years you could get a larger number than 70, because there will always be the private scliools, and always I expect a school in the nature of the Ramsey Grammar School. 972 — Rev. P. B. Walters: You say you considi-r the Grammar School to be a necessity? Witness : I do. 973.— Rev. P. B. Walters : Why ? Witness : Taking into account the class of parents who come here to reside with children to educate. I am very doubtful that private families who come here, having incomes, would take advantage of a Higher Grade School. 974.— Rev. P. B. Walters : You think it would be serious if the Grammar School, as such, were killed off? Witness : I think it would. Rev. P. B. AValteus : That view of the case is worth considering. 975.— Mr JonoHiN : Then you do not think there is a necessity for the two ? Witness: That is one of the difficulties. If the Grammar School Trust could be enlarged and widened, put upon a broader basis, it ■would do for some time. If anything more is to be done, it would seem that a Higher Grade School is a necessity. MR JAMES CALLOW'S EVIDENCE. 976 — The Chairman : Mr Calh.w, you are a member of the Ramsey School Committee, and have lived in Ramsey a number of years? Witness: Yes; I have lived in Ramsey above 60 years. 977. —The Chairman : What is your view with regard to the need for secondary educa- tion in the district? Witness : My opinion, after considering the matter for many years, is that there is a great necessity for a school between the el. mentary schools and the Grammar School. Mr Newton speaks of the Grammar School; but many people think it is more of a private school. Many people think he gives an education of a higher nature. There are many parents in R not say that the schools should not go on; but they are supported by fees alone, whereas the school I mention would be supported by the G vernment as well. I think many if the Ramsey people would be willing to be rated up to a rate not exceeding 3d in the £. 978. — Mr CowELL: What is the rate now? Witness : There ia no education rate at all this year. It has been a penny or three-hulfpence every other year. The tlementary schools have the lowest possible fees in the Isle of Man, They have been working under great difficu ties. Mr Paton has done a great deal to keep the schools going, but I do not think they can be kept going much longer without a, rate. I think we should have a rate to put the elementary schools in order, and to provide a better staff, provided they were put under public control, and have a rate for a higher schodl, which need not interfere wi'h Mr Newton's school, nor the other private schools in Ramsey, Many children attend the Vi esleyan School whose parents will not send them to the Nutioual School. There is a good deal of caste about Ramsey, and they would not send their children to Mr Paton's school even if they got an education above the sixth or seventh standards. That being the case, and having judged the feelings of a great many persons in Ramsey, I believe they would go in fur a small rate, because they think such a school should be established. As Mr LaMothe has said, we are very heavily rated in Ramsey, and that is one of the reasons why the people have not gone in for improvements in their schools. 979 — The Chairman: You say that ele- mentary education requires strengthening — that is scarcely within the scope of our inquiry. We wish to know how the education can be strengthened in the higher subjects? Witness : 1 think the education might be improved in the elementary schools, and I aay that that cannot be done at present, because the scbools are undermanned — the teachers could do the work, but they have not the time to do it, nor the accommodation in the schools. I know miny people who cannot afford to send their children to Mr Newton's school would be glaii to give their children a better education than they can get at present, I think Mr Cowley's estimate is too low, and that there are about 100 such children now in the district. 980.— The Chairman : What do you think should be done ? Witness : I think we should have a Higher Grade School in Ramsey, and I do not think a rate of threepence in the ,£ would be objected to. If we have this secondary school, I think a great many children would go from the National School and the Wesleyan Schoul, and that would give plenty of accommodation in the town. 981. — The Chairman : If you had such a central school, would it be available f t the MR J. R. KERRUISH'S EVIDENCE. 63 outlying parishes — Bride, Andreas, Jurby, Lezayre, and Maughold? Witness: I think it wouid. It would depend upon the suljects taiifjht in the school whether the parents would send their ehildien in — a very good education is given in the Board Schools there. I believe there would be at least 20 children, as Mr Cowley has said. 982. — Mr JonGHiN : Tou would not recora- meud a 3d rate on the parishes ? Witness: That is a diflicult matter to give an opinion upon. I should think it would deppcd upon the number of children who would attend. 983.— Rev. F. B. Walters : It looks to me as if what you propose is not so much in the interest of hi-jher education, as an attempt to make a mixture of the voluatary elementary schools, and subsidise them from the rates in order to avoid getting the whole elementary system of Ramsey on the rates? Witness: I think you misunderstand me. 984 — Rev. F. B. Walters : You said it would relieve the elementary school.-^, and so avoid a higher rate — tlie rate in Douglas is 8J' Witness : But I think this school would supply all the elementary needs of Ramsey for the next eight, or tfn years. I think that is what is required by the district. 985 — Mr Moore : In fact, .vou want to make a good sixth and seventh standard in the elementary schools, and give them supoort they do not get at present? Witness : 'i'hat is so. That is admitted by the masters, because they are not sufficiently staffed. 986 —Rev. F. B. Waltebs : Suppose it came to a rate of 5d, do you think there would be the same eagerness? Do you think they would be eager to go on after paying 5d to increase by 3d, bringing the rate to 8d ? AVitness: I do not know. The principal objection is the rate, because, in other ways, Ramsey is so heavily rated. But, at the same time, look at the injury done to the rising generation. 987. — Mr Mooke : Is there much demand for instruction in navigation? Witness: Oh yes. You should see the number of fishermen here, able bodied men, who have just a smattering, and who are kept down for the want of education. If they were better educated they might have positions in the Navy, in the coasting trade, and also in foreign-going ships. I believe tnere is a great need for the teaching of navigation in Ramsey. 988. — Mr CowELL : Do you think the in- habitants of Ramsey un lerstand the advantage of a secondary school ? Witness : No, I do not think they do. Many think it means teaching drapers' and other apprentices furniture making. 989 — Mr CowELL; Do you think, if popular lectures were given in the town and neighbour- hoof", stating what is meant by a secondary school, and stating the advantages to be gained from it — that the result would be that the new system would be supported? Witness : I think so. 990 — Mr Cowell: Do you think the people are indifi'erent because they know, or because they do not know ? Witness : I'hey are indifferent because they do not know. I think those who do know it are decidedly in favour of it. EVIDE.-^CE OF MRJ. R. KERRCTISH. 991.— The Chairman: You have heard what has been said generally to-day on the subject, and now I ask your opinion as to whether there is great need for secondary education in this neighbourhood ? Witness: Yes, I think it is a disgrace to Ramsey we have not got it. It is a distrrace to the town there is such a deficiency in the education here. 992. — The Chairman: Do you cncur in what has been said as to the eleme tary schools not providing for the requirements of the district ? Witness : They do not meet the require- ments of the times, 993. — The Chairman: What would you sugvjest to the Commissioners as the best way of providing secondary education in the district ? Witness: I do not know what to suggest, unless you start a central school for the district. 994.— The Chairman : Where would you place such a school ? Witness : In Ramsey. 995 — I'he Chairman: Do you think such a school would be available for the outlying districts ? Witness : Yes; I would make it a school for day boys cnming from all parts of the district. 996. — The Chairman : H ive you any means of judging what the attendance would be? Witness : I think the number would be considerable. A return s'atea that there are about 200 children attending private schools where there is no proper provision for the educational requirements of the children ; and the teaching is in hole and corner rooms where there is no provision for sanitary requirements. I believe that moie than 200 children would attend a Higher Grade School in this district ; and that the parents would be irlad to pay for such an education, even if the fee was more than 13s a quarter. 997. — The Chaikman : I hope what you say is correct about the willingness of parents to pay, but you must be aware there is a great discrepancy between what y«u say and what other witnesses have said as to the number likely to attend. The highest estimate given by the other witnesses this morning ot the chidren tliat would attend a Higher Grade School was about 100. Mr Cowley estimated the uumber at 70. and Mr Fennah went to a 100 You go to 200; will you state your reasons ? Witness: Statistics show that there are 174 children sent to private schools in Ramsey, and it is reasonable to suppose that the number would be larger if they could be sent to a 64 MR J. SOUTHWARD'S EVIDENCE. A HiKhfi- Grade School, whtre the fees would be more moderate, 998 — The CHAIBM4N : What are the usual fees m ihf private sclio^l- ? Witness: I pay four guineas a term for my eldest girl, without extras. 999 -Mr Drinkwater : Do you think the anuiu it over the fees required for the support of the Hi^'her Grade Sehools should be made up from thh rates or taxf s ? Witness: The school would be under State management, and the grants would be made in the usual way. 1000 —Mr Drinkvtater: Bat the money would have to be found. Would you like to see all the elementary schools under the School Board ? Witness : It would have been better for Ramsey if, when tlie School Board was started in the town, all the elementary schools had been placed under its control, and away from sectarian influence, which is the cause of the whole misery of the town. 1001 —Rev. F. B. Waltfr^! : Would you have tliat done now ? Witness : It would be to the benefit of the town. I think every boy should get such an education that, if an important position is offered to him in after life, he would be able to rise to it. 1002. — Mr Drinkwater: Do you think every Koy could be educated to rise in this way ? Witness : N-t every boy, but an opportunity should be given to boys of ordinary intelligence to ria.' to such positions. 1003. -Mr Drinkwater : Then you would have education carried to a hiyh pitch in order that brii^ht boys might get to a higher position in life? Wi'ness: I think the education of every boy should he carried to a higher pitch. 1004. — Rev. F. B. Walters : Regardless of COP I ? Witness : It has to be done, or the children will go down to the gutter and become loafers and corn*^rmen. 1005 —Rev. F. B. Walters : When you estimate that 200 would go to the Higher Grade School, have you settled in your mind what standird a scholar should pass, before going to this school ? Witness : The Sth standard, I think. 1006.— Rev F. B. Walters: Do you think there are 200 who have passed the 5th standard in the elementary schools of Ramsey ' Witness: No; my argument is that, from the elementary schools, and from the private schools, there would be 200 scholars whose parents would send them to the Higher Grade School, Mr CoWBLL : That is to say taking the private schools with the ntjmber that would come out of the elementary schools f Witness : Yes, it would exceed 200 1007 Mr CowELL : You know a great deal about the farmers of the district : tell me, in the case of an average farmer having four or five children, boys and girls, what becomes of the majority of the children ? Witness : The majority emigrate. 1008. — Mr CowBLL : They have, in other words, to go out into the world? Witness : Yes, they have to go out into the world, and if not fitted by a proper education, they are placed at a disadvantage. 1009-— Mr CoWELL: In regard to many of the children born and educated in Ramsey, what becomes of them? Do they settle in Ramsey ? Witness : I think a very Urge nuiuber go away. 1010.— Mr CoWELL : They have to go out into the world, and compete with others better educated than themselves? Witness: Yes: I believe ninety out of the hundred who went to school with me are abroad. The Chairman : Mr Kerruish is the last of the witnesses we intend to call from the town of Ramsey. I think, in pursuance of what I said this morning, we will now ask those from the country districts to give evidence, and I will fii-st call on Mr Southward. MR .1. SOUTHWARD'S EVIDENCE. 1011. -The Chairman (to Mr Southward, woollen manufacturer, Sulby): What have you to say to us in regard to this inquiry : is there any demand for young people for secondary education ? Witness: On the part of some there is. but it is an agricultural district, and I do not sup- pose that if a central school was established at Ramsey many in Leziiyre would avail them- elve.s of it. 1012 — The Chairman : Do you think there is any way by which certain subjects connected with higher education could bo taught in the elementary school or by evening continuation schools? Witness '• I think something higher is needed. 1013— The Chairman : Yes, I think yousaid tnat at first, but do you think that the present elementary schools could be utilised for giving a higher education? Take, first of all, Lezayre : could we, by means of evening continuation schools in the present buildings give the education which you think is needed ? Witness: I hardly think it would meet the case. 1014 —The Chairman : And you say at the same time a central school or a Higher Grade School would not ? Witness : Because of the distance they would have to go. I think, in country districts, the best mode of improving the education is by increasing the teaching staff. So few go in for higher education in the country districts. I believe it is needed to meet the requirements of the day. As the last witness said, many of the young people do not settle here. There is nothing like the number of young people in the district now as when I was a boy. They go to America, New Zealand, and other parts. 1015.— The Chairman : Are you a native of the Isle of Man? Witness : Yes ; I was born here. There is nothing like the population in my neighbour* MR J. COWLEY'S EVIDENCE. 65 hood that there was whnn I was a boy. In respect to eniii^i' ition, I haTe two sons in Chicago at the piesent time. I had to send them tn school at Ramsey to finish up. The boys going from the country districts to school at Ramsey are at a great disadvantage as com- pared with those in the t.iw-;, as it tiikes them half the morning to reach the school, 1016' — I'he Chairman: D ^es not the know- ledge that many of the young people will go abroad and have to compete with others well equippnd in the way of education stimulate a deHiie for a higher edui^ation? Witness : The great diffi.ulty of the present day is to know what to send the children to. If it were known what they were going to it would be more easy t^ advise as to their edu- cation. Supposing a boy wag yoing to sea, it nould require him to be iustruoted in naviga- tion, and so on. I think a school should be of a kiud that the teaching could be adapted to the requirements of the people. 1017 - The Chairman: We have had various figures given to us to-day. Can you form any idea of the number that would be liksly to a' lend a central school in the Ramsey district? Witness: I cannot say, bub I suppose from my neighbourhood theio would be about six. 1018. — The Chairman : You include Sulby when 1 speak (>f Lez>. — Mr CowELL : Is there any reason wl.y lioys could not come fi-om Ballaugh, and Michael, and Sulby, to a school at Kamsey, if an arrangement was made for them to come a little later, siiv, at half-past nine? Witness : But they would be losing the early part of the day. Mr CowELL : Well, they would lose half an hour. 1025. — Mr Moore : 1 suppose the expense of railwiiy |ourney uould be something? Witness: They could get half-yearly tickets. Mr Moore : What would be the cost ? Witness: Something like 18s. 102& — Mr CowELL : I suppose a great nuMitier of boys have bicycles? Witness: Yes. 102*7. — Mr CowELL : Do you not think bicycles would be of great use in this way ? AVitness : Yes. 1028.— Mr CowELL : When you mention six as the number likely to come to a Higher Grade School at Ramsey, you mean from Sulby ? Witness: Yes; there are 80 er 90 scholars in our schools, and I do not think I could select more than six that would be likely to come here to a Higher Grade School. 1029> — Mr CowELL : You are speaking of the village ? Witness : Yes, of the village of Sulby. EVIDENCE OF MR. JOHN COWLEY. On Mr John Cowley presenting himself to give evidence, 1030- — The Chairman said : You likewise live ill the parish ot Lezayre? Witness: Yes. 1031.— >The Chaihman: Do you live in Sulby ? Witness : In Sulby Glen. 1032. — The Chairman : Then you will give evidence as to the same part of the parish as Mr Southward? Witness: I live higher up. 1033 —Mr CoWELL : You live on the highest farm in the Isle of Man? Witness: Yes. 1034.— The Chairman: That is a district where there is a special school — a mountain school? Witness : Yes. 1035. — The Chairman ; Are there any chil- dren in that district who stand in need of a secondary school ? Witness : I believe there are a few who would avail themselves of it, if the fees were reitsonable. 1036. — The Chairman : When you say reasonable, I suppose you so regard the fees at Douglas Higher Grade School? Witness : Yes. 103'7- — The Chairman: Even in that remote district of Sulby Glen, you think there are 66 MR WM. BLACK'S EVIDENCE. children who would avail themselves of a secondary school at Ramsey ? Witness : I think so. 1038 — The Chairman : What number of children avail themselves of the mountain school ? Witness : There are sixteen on the books. 1039. — The Chairman : Are you of opinion that a central school in Kamsey is the best mode of providing secondary education in this district? Witness: f think so, because otherwise there would be the expense of enlarging the pre-ent school buildings, and increasing the staff of teachers. 1040. — The Chairman : You do not think the present school buildings would be available for secondary education, without slruclural alteration, and without increasing the staff of teachers ? Witness: I think not. 1041.— The Chairman : You think that on the whole the nio^t economical way of providing secondary education in this district would b ■ to 1 ave a central Higher Grade School at Ramsey ? Witness : Yes, my Lord. 1042— The Eev. G. Paton : How would the children get to and fro to school at Ramsey from the outer districts ? Witness : Most of them probably would have fritnds in town with whom they could board during the week. I send two sods myself to the Higher Grade bchool in Douglas. They board in Douglas, and I think it an advantage to have such a school to send them to. 1043 —Mr CowELL : Do the children of the farmers and shepherds of Sulby Glen when they grow up remain on the same lands as their parents ? Witness : No, many of them go away. 1 suppose two-thirds of them at least. 1044. — Mr CowELL : Therefore, it is abso- lutely necessary they should have some technical knowledge when they go out into the world ? Witness: Well, it would be good for them to be placed on an (.qual tooting with the children from other districts. 1045.— Rev. F. B. Walters : Do you think the whole district ought to be rated in the same way for the support of such a school ? Witness : That is a thing it would be hard to fix, because there is a larger number of people in the town than in the country parts of the district. 1046.— Rev. F. B. Walters : Would the people in the country districts be willing to pay a rate ? Witness : I think so. 1047.— The Chairman : You think they would be willing to pay a fair proportion? Witness : I think so. EVIDENCE OF MR WM. BLACK. Mr Wm. Black, in reply to the Chairman, said : I live at Maughold, and have done so for many years. 1048 — TheCHAiBMAN: Whatcan yousayas to the general mquirements of Maughold in regard to secondary education; is there a want felt,? Witness: I am sorry to say that 1 do not think there is, but, if provision was made, the need of such education would be realised and people would avail themselves of it. I can say this much : I know there are many young men in my district who feel they have not paid sufficient attention to their education, and who, therefore, if there were evening schools, would avail tlieuiselves of them for improving their •education. 1049. — 'l"he Chairman: It is the old story when thny come to see, they believe? Witn»*SB: Yep. 1050. — The Chairman : Well, if secondary education is to be provided for this district lnjw do vou think it should be done ? Do you think the best way would be by a cuntral school at Ramsey ? Witness: I think so. I do not see where else to put it. 1051— The Chairman : You agree with the last witness? Witness : Yes. 1052 — The Chairman : And you think there are people at Maughold who would send their children to such a school, and would be willing to pay the fees ? Witness : They would be willing to pay the fees if they were to derive a benefit. 1053. — The Chairman : For your district, what kind of technical instruction would be required — would it be agricultural? Witness : Not to any extent, I think. 1054- — The Chairman : Would it be in navigation ? Witne.-s: That would be one branch, which would be useful to many of the lads in the parish when they go across the water. 1055. — The Chairman : Have you any young women who would avail them of instruc- tion in ciiokery ? Witness: I think so, from the fact that a Girls' Fiiendiy Society, which the ladies have established in the parish, has done a great deal of good. Many young women have joined it, and it is doing a useful work. 1056 — Mr Drinkwater : I want to ask you a few t^ling.^ about agiiculture. In the first instance, I have had an opportunity of reading over the evidence given by you to the former Commission. I would like to know whether you agree with what was said as to parents being eager to get their boys from school, in order that they ir.ay work in fields Witness : I am sorry to say that is too much the case. We can't keep boys in the school when they get up to 13 years of age. They want to get away from school in order to make money. 1057. — Mr Drinkwater : Then, whether they are farmers' tons or are going to be labourers, I think you will agree that their best technical education would be obtained on the farm — that theorising is absolutely useless without practical knowledge— but I am sure you will go on further, and will say that the MR J. KNEALE'S EVIDENCE. 67 theoretical kuowledue would be a useful supplement to the practical knowledge? Witness : Undoubtedly. 1058- — Mr Drixkwater : Then, do you think it advisable to give tliem this additional education wiien they just leave school, or to wait forayenror two, when t bey will be getting to feel that they want a lit tie further education? AVitness : I think, as lads grow up, they begin to feel the deficiencies of their educa- tion, and are anxious to make up the want, and would be more eager to avail themselves of opportunities of instruction. We have had instances lately of the use of practical instruc- tion to those who have left school, and their willingness to avail themselves of it, in the way the dairy lectures were taken up. 1059. — Mr DniNKWATER : You think they were a success ? "Witness : X do. I know cases in which they were a complete succes-i, because they never now make up their butter in any other way than lis they were taught in the dairy class. 1060. — Mr Drinkwater: Do you think it would work well if we brought lecturers over here upon other practical subjects — say to lecture one year on ilairying, another year on farriering, and so on? Witness: I think so. It works well across the water. 1061. — Mr Dbinkwater: Do you think, if there were classes to teach cookery, laundry work, dret-stiiaking, and such like, that girls would attend them? Witness: I think they would. I think it would be requisite that they should meet ia some central place, such as a town. 1062- — Mr Drinkwater : The way to work theui would be from the centre, the same as the dairy classes were ? Witness : Yes. 1063 — Mr Drinkwater : I want to ask you a que.stion about one thing further. In Ecgland, they jjenerally have a central school for agriculture where a practical knowledge of it is taught. I am sure you will agree that it would be a great advantage to farmers. Would the cost be very much ? Witness : I am afraid the cost in the case of the Island would be rather a large sum. It is expensive to keep up a college, but in Kirk- cudbriglitshire and Dumfries-shire they have lecturers to go round the various districts, and the same plan might, with advantage, be adopted here. 1064. — Mr Drinkwater: You say you think the ettiblisbment of an agricultural college here would be to.^' expensive: ^rould it be desir- able to give scholarships for such colleges across the water .■" Witness : Yes, I think so. 1065.— Kev F. B. Walters : Do you think the pe jple would like to pay a compulsory rate in aid ? Witness : So far as my experience goes in the work of the School Committee, we cannot keep the children at school up to the age. 1066.— Rev. F. B. Walters : That is 14. Witness : Yes, for the sixth standard. 1067. - Mr JoTGHiN : There is great scarcity of labourers? Witness : Yes, at present a great number leave for the town. 1068. — Mr CowRLL : I know that you under- stand a great deal about education in the country, and take an interest in it. Do you think there is any need for a better education than can be trot in the elementary schools? Witness: Undoubtedly. 1069 —Mr CowELL: In view of the fearful competi'ioH which is going on, do you not think it; is absolutely necessary that our children should have some special technical ini-truction? VVitn. ss: Yes, I do. 1070.— Mr CowELL: Do you think there is a fair number of people in the neighbourhood of Miiughiild who Would be willing to pay 15s a quarter for a good education for their children ? Witness : I think so. EVIDENCE < F MR J. KNEALE. Mr J. Kneale, Chairman of the School Com- mittee nf Andreas, was next examined. 1071. — Tlie Chairman : Is there a felt want at Andreas that the elementary schools do not supply all the instruction young people require at the present day ? Witness: Undoubtedly there is such a want, and a few go out of the district to ot)tain a better education than they otherwise could get? 1072- — The Chairman: We may fairly assume, then, that it is a felt want by the young people of Andreas that something more is wanted than the elementary schools afford ? Witness: I do not know whether it is felt by the young people, but it is felt by their parents 1073.— The Chairman : How do you think that want could be best supplied? Could anything be done better than is done by the elementary schools? Witness : I think the whole of the schools are under-staffed, and, therefore, not able to adequately deal with the number of the chil- dren that have to be taught, 1074.- The Chairman: It they were im- proved as far as po.ssible, do you think, then, that the need could be supplied? Wi'ness: Well, to a certain extent. 1075.— The Chairman: Not entirely ? Wiiness : Not entirely. 1076. — The Chairman : If arytbing in the nature of a central school was established in Ramsey, do you think any number of persons in the parish of Andreas would avail them- selves of it? Having regard to the distance, would there be any reasonable number of persons in Andreas ready to avail themselves of it? Witness : I cannot form an opinion as to numbers. Perhaps there would not be more than a dozen. The Chairman: You think we might reckon on a dozen ? Witness : Well, I am not sure. 1077. — The Chairman : Well, extend the question beyond Andreas — you know the 68 MR J. KNEALE'S EVIDENCE. district well— ilo you think we inie;ht rfckon on from 70 to 100 in all attending a central school at Ramsey? Witness : I could not say, because 1 think a very large majority would come from Ramsey. 1078.- The Chairman : We should have to look to Kamsey for the most part? Witness : Tes, a very few would come from Andreas. I think if the present staflf was im- proved at the school it would, on the whole, be of more benefit to Andreas, than a central school at Ramsey. 1079 —The Chairman : Have you any secondary education at Andreas at the present time? Witness: Ho, we generally take advantage of the B-ibools in Ramsey, the private schools and the Grammar School. 1080.— The Chairman; Do jou think a good deal of inetruction might be given in Ramsey, hy means of evening continuation schools ? Witness: Ye?, I think it would be well if something was done in that direction, and not confined to auy age. 1081. — Mr CowELL : Just on that point, what do you mean by tvening continuation schools? D> you mean by evening continua- tion schools, evening schools for the purpose of giving elementary education, or for giving advanced education ? Witness : I think the best way of meeting the need of advanced education, is by increas- ing the staff of existing schools in the first place, and advanced education should follow. Mr CowELL : I think his Lordship asked you about continuation schools at night. In your reply, had you in view schools for higher education, or simply schools to make up the defioioncy in the education of those who had not made full use of the elementary schools ? Witness : I under.^tood the Bishop to be speaking to a certain extent of technical education. The Chairman : The question I put was, would evening continual ion schools supplement the education in the elementary schools in a satisfactory manner 1082. -Mr Moore : We have evidence to the fact that in some part of the leland it is ditficult to get children to nttend evening continuation schools: would that difficulty exist in your neighbourhood ? Witness: It is entirely .a matter of opinion. I think people would avail themselves of such schools. 1083. — Mr Moore : You say the best wav of giving better education would be to increase the staff, so that proper attention could be given to scholars when they reach the sixth standard ? Witness: Yes. The present staff in small country schools is not sufficient for proper attention to be given to scholars in the higher standards. 1084— Mr Moore : Would people -.n the country be willing to incur a rate? Witness : I think it would be a fair ground on which to go to the Governor for an increased grant. 1085.— The Rev. G. Paton: 1 wish to ask. throuL^h the Chairman, whether the witness thinks that even 12 children would ci me from Andreas to a higher grade school at Ramsey, The Chairman : 1 understood Mr Kneale to pledge himself to there being 12. 1086.— Witness : Yes ; I think that would be the outside number. 1 would like fuither to say that, as the Isle of Man is surrounded by the sea, and many of our boys take to sea- faring life, it is a discredit to us that navigation is not taught in our schools. 1087.— Rev. F. B. Waiters : You speak of the demand for child labour in the fields. Is that throughout the year, or at special times ? Witness : Of course there is a special demand at certain seasons. 1088. — Mr Drinkwater: Do you think in- str'iijtion in dairy work, laundry work, cookery, poultry work, on farriery, instruction in agri- cultural matters generally, could be given with advantage in our schools ? Witness: I am afraid net. It would have to be ffiven by lectures at night-schools. 1089 —Mr Drinkwater: Well, of course the pupils would require to be a class rather older than the children in our day schools, but do you hink such instruction should be given in the winter time, when people are not bus-y, by means of travelling lecturers? For instance, one year lectures could be given on dairy work, another year on poultry keeping and agriculture generally, and so on. It is not necessary to have lectures on all these subjects in one year, but let the expense spread over several years. There would not be much expense in any one year. Witness : Some of the subjects, I fear, nould not take, such as farriery. 1090. —The Chairman : I have been re- quested to ask you if you think there is a distinct demand in Andreas for continuation schools? Witness : Does your Lordship mean a wish for them ? 1091 — 'I'he Chairman : Is there a need for them? Witness : Certainly there is a need. 1092,— The Chairman : Is there a certain desire? Witness : Tnere is not an expressed desire, to any very great extent. 1093. — Mr CowELL : If a central school for secondary education were established, where would be the best centre. Witness: Kamsey would be the best centre, if there is to be but one school. At t'je conclusion of the evidence of this witness, the Commissioners adjourned to resume the inquiry at Peel on the following day. FOURTH DAY— Peel, Wednesday, July 22nd, 1896. CHAIRMAN'S STATEMENT.-MR WM. POTTS' EVIDENCE. The Education Commission sat at Peel to-day. The members of the Commission present were the Lord Bishop (Chairman), Mr Georije Drinkwater, J.P., Mr J. W. Kymer. B.A., Mr A. W. Moore, H.K., and Mr John Jout;bin, H.K. There was a numerous atten- dance tif influential inhabitants of the district. The Chairman : This is a meeting of the Commissioners appointed by the late Lieut. - Governor, to inquire tjenerally into the subject of secondary education in this Island. By the terms of our Commission, I find that we have been directed to make inquiries as to the provisions tor secondary or higher education already existing in the Island ; next, as to the best means of enabling brilliant scholars in our elementary schools to pass on to King William's College and other similar institu- tions; thirdly, as to the most practical way of giving efFe'it to the recommendations of a Commission which was presided over by my predecessor, and which reported some years ago; fourthly, we have to inquire .ns to the source from which funds may be derived; and, lastly, into the question of existing legis- lation, and what further legislation is nreded for the general furtherance of this movement. I may say, as I have said elsewhere, that we have found it convenient to divide the Island into four separate districts — first, Douglas and Laxey ; second. Peel ; third, Ramsey ; fourth, Castletown. We have held meetings already at Douglas, Castletown, and Kamsey, and we are here to-day at Peel, for the gathering of such information as we can get upon the the general subject. Now, the points on which we desire especially to be informed at Peel are as follows : — In the first place, we want to know what is the need of the district in respect to higher education, and how far that need is realised by the parents. The second point we desire to inquire into is — any existing means or agencies that already exist in this neighbourhood for imparting higher education, and how are they utilised. Lastly, we have to inquire as to the best means of impart- ing higher education in this district, whether it would be better to do so by a central school, or by a system of evening continuation classes, or of scholarships, or any of these combined. I think it will be for t'le general convenience that I should say one word defining the district. When we speak of the district of Peel, we include the parish of German, with its districts of St. John's .and Cronk-y-Voddy ; the parish of Patrick, including Dalby and Foxdale; the parish of Michael, and also Ballaugh. I also think it would be well if I were to define what we mean by the term secondary or higher education. I think if that had been defined, at an earlier stage of the proceedings, with greater preciseness, the people would have understood more distinctly what we refer to when we use the term. I believe inquiries have been sent out in this and other districts as to the desire of parents to avail themselves of secondary education for their children, but I do not think the term has been properly understood, and as a consequence we have not got at the real mind of the parents. When we speak of secondary education or higher educa- tion, we are contemplating instruction in navigation, in agriculture, in mining, in chemistry, in bookkeeping, in shorthand, in typewriting, in joinery, in cookery, in laundry work, and in music; and I do not pretend that I have exhausted all that may be'included in the term " secondary education," when I mention those details. I am sorry to add that Mr Ring, one of the most valued members of our Commission, has been unable to be present with us at our sittings held this week, owing to professional engagements in Douglas ; but we must do the best we can in his absence. We shall follow the course we have usually followed on other occasions, and adjourn at one o'clock for luncheon. I propose, in the first instance, to take evidence from Peel itself, and immedi- ately after luncheon, if possible, from the country districts surrounding Peel, We do not propose to avail ourselves of the permission which we have from the Governor, in terms of the Commission, to administer the oath, unless it should seem necessary to the Commissioners to do so. First of all I will call Mr William Potts. MK. WM. POTTS' evidence. 1094.— The Chairman : You are head teacher of the Clothworkers' School, at Peel ? Witness : I am. 1095— The Chairman: And Secretary in this district of the Association of Teachers of the Isle of Man ? Witness : I am. 1096. — The Chairman : You have lived here some time. What is your opinion as to the need of higher education in this district — speaking generally? Witness : I think there is a strong need or demand — accepting your definition of the word. 1097 —The Chairman : I am not asking now as to the desire— whether the need is realised — but, in your opinion, would it be a distinct boon to this neighbourhood, that instruction should be given in these subjects ? Witness : I believe so. 1098— The Chairman .- Does your remark .apply to boys and girls ? ^\itness: To boys and girls. 1099 — The Chairman : What agencies exist at the present time in Peel, or the district, for imparting such information and instruction 70 MR WM. POTTS' EVIDENCE. Witness : Practically none of an organised character. Some boys receive what one might call secondary education, or certain branches of secondary education, in one or two schools — in the way of learning specific subjects, such as alcrebra and mensuration, and Science classes have been held in our schools for two winters, primarily for pupil teachers. Outside of Peel there tias been, so far as I can gather, no demand in recent yeai-s to encompass this secondary work. 1100— The Chairman : What subjects would be chiefly required by the boys of this district? Perhaps you had better answer for the town of Peel, and not the district at large. Witness : In Peel, I should say navigation, most decidedly, instruction in woodwork, and mechanical drawing— for boys ; and for girls, cookery, dress-making, and laundry work. 1101. — The Chairman : I suppose I may presume that, in certain parts of the district, information and instruction with regard to mining would be a need ? Witness : In Foxdale I should strongly urge, not only that classes be formed and subsidised and carried on by experienced teachers, but that a good useful tecbnicil museum sliould be founded, a good microscope supplied, and slides for showing sections of rocks, ores, and so on; and that other means should be taken to foster an interest in mining and mineralogy. 1102 — The Chairman : You have stated to the Commissioners that, in your opinion, it would be a great boon to the district to have instruction given on those subjects. I will now ask you — is the need realised to any extent by the parents of the children of the district? Witness : With the exception of a few parents, I do not think the need is realised. H03- — I'he Chairman: In the return which you sent us from this district, and which I have before me, you state, on page seven, that about 100, out of a total of 359, who are now being taken in standards five, six, and seven, would, in your judgment, be likely to avail themselves of instruction on these subjects, where such instruction is systematically given, that is in case a central school were established? Witness : I do not say they would avail themselves of a central school, but they would avail themselves of higher education if it was imparted. 1104. — The Chairman : Do you think that, it the parents got a clearer view of what we mean when we use the term secondary and higher grade education, that number would be onsiderably increased ? Witness; Yes. 1105 — The Chairman : Then you adhere to the opinion that abuut 100 throughout the district would be the largest number we could reckon upon ? Witness : I do. 1106 — The Chairman : Now there are certain modes in which the Commissioners might see their way to recommend the promotion of higher education, and I would like to take your opinion as to which you think is the best mode. First of all, let us speak of a central school, such as the Higher Grade School in Douglas, which appears to be very much valued there. Would there be any local endowment available for the establishment of a Higher Srade School in this district ? Witness : So far as I know, the only endow- ments are those of the Mathematical School and the old Grammar School, and whatever might be given by the Baume devisees. 1107. — The Chairman : I presume the Com- missioners would not go into details of the endowments as they have other means of ascertaining them exactly. I suppose the endowment of the old Gi'ammar School is about £60 a year ? Witness : About that. 1108. — The Chairman: Whatever endow- ments are in existence at the present time would only go a small way in carrying on education in a Higher Grade School such as that in Douglas? Witness : That is a matter of opinion. I should say ^£60 a year is a good help. 1109- — The Chairman : But we won't enter into matters of opinion. At present the Gram- mar School Trust is doing nothing in the way of education ? Witness : Not that I am aware of. 1110. — The Chairman : Would the income of the Grammar School Trust be available for the whole district which I have defined ? Witness : Scarcely. The children from Cronk-y-Voddy could not use it. The Chairman: We have included Ballaugh, Michael, Cronk-y-Voddy, St. John's, Poxdale, Patrick, and Dalby. Witness: The children from Dalby could scarcely use it, unless they had some help in getting into Peel. Cronk-y-Voddy would be in the same predicament. Children from Michael and Ballaugh would have a mile to walk from Peel-road station, and it would be rather inconvenient to bring children from Foxdale at certain seasons of the year. 1111. — The Chairman ; Supposing such a school were erected at St. John's, would it be more available ? Witness : It seemed to the teachers, who considered the question, that St. John's would be available from Ballaugh, Michael, Foxdale, and Peel. The Chairman : Then, in your judgment, would the central school be erected at Peel, where you have the largest population, and where you have nearly 900 children — more advantageously than in the rest of the district put together; or at St. John's, which would be the most central point ? Witness : St. John's would be the best . centre, so far as railway convenience is con- cerned. 1112.— The Chairman : Passing from the Central School — what would you say about the evening continuation schools as an agency for spreading higher education in the district ? I will ask you two questions. First, would this system involve any alteration in the structure of the elementary school buildings? Witness : It would if certain technical work was undertaken ; but for subjects which could be taught in lecture form — book-keeping, languages, navigation, and so on — the present buildings would be amply sufficient. MR WM. POTTS' EVIDENCE. 71 1113.— The Chairman : Bearing in mind the kind of instruction which the boys and girls would chiefly demand, would considerable outlay be involved in adding to the structure of elementary schools for the purpose of giving such iflstruction? Witness : I do not think so. If you teach cookery and wood-work, there would have to be separate rooms and fittings. ■•"he Chairman : But cookery could be taught to the girls in connection with the present elementary curricnluni ? Witness : In many schools it would mean a specially constructed class-room. 1114. — The Chairman : I cin understand that; but it might be done in connection with the elementary system ? Witness : Yes, and the teachers strongly urge that it should be. 1115.— The Chairman : Now, for my second C|uestioa. Would not the imparting of secondary education involve either permanent additions to the staff or peripatetic teachers ? Witness : I should say everything depends en the staff of the night schools. They have not be^n a success in this district, and where they have existed they have gradually gone do«n. It is not only a great strain on the teacher, but it was found, at the beginning of the winter, so long as the teacher was a new man who was populai', or the subject was new, there was a little enthusiasm, but after Christmas the classes went down. School after school was closed, and the teacher cer- tainly was never paid anything like a fair sum for the pains and labour he had taken. Consequently there does not seem to be any desire on the teachers' part to take up the work again on the old conditions. 1116. — The Chairman : Were these classes tor the most part conducted by the teachers already there ? Witness : Yes. 1117. — The Chairman : Do you think the system of peripatetic teachers to give instruc- tion on the desired points at night schools would be satisfactory ? Witness : Under certain conditions. I think the dictrict would have to be carefully organised, under a very capable supervisor, who would see that classes were kept up in the district, and that the peripatetic teacher did his work thoroughly Well, Those teachers would have to be men who were not only good teachers, but men who had the knack of maaiging the young fellows who would attend the schools. 1118. — The Chairman : I gather that the teachers generally are of opinion that the needs of the girls in this district with respect to cookery and laundry work could be supplied by a modification of the present elementary curriculum ? Witness : I think so. 1119.— The Chairman : And for boys you think information could best be given by peripatetic teachers attending the night schools ? Witness : Except in the case of woodwork. I am strongly of opinion that some provision should be made in Peel for a centre — that we should utilize some existing building*?, and the children from the Wesleyan, Roman Catholic, and Clothworkers' Schools could go twice a week and have two hours' instruction in wood- work — the girls would go to the same centre for cookery. 1120.— The Chairman : We have looked at these two modes — one, the central school, which on the whole you say would be better placed at St. John's — and also the night schools with peripatetic teachers attending them, which would involve certain alterations structurally and otherwise in the elementary schools. Which of those two would you suggest to the Commissioners? Do yon lean to the evening continuation schools, or to the central one ? Witness : A central school includes the other, because the central school would be utilised at nights. The Chairman : Yes, but the central school is not moveable to the different parishes. Witness: I think the only possible way of getting at the bulk of the people is by evening continuation schools. 1121. — The Chairman : If, in addition to night schools with peripatetic teachers, we had a system of scholarships for the more brilliant children in the elementary schools to King William's College, would you increasingly approve of the second system — evening con- tinuation classes ? Witness : I would. I think the system of giving scholarships would do a gieat deal of good. I am not sure whether scholarships to King William's College would be the best for higher grade school purposes. If facilities for travelling to these schools were given, and some payment to the parents to make it worth their while sparing their children for three years, it would do a great deal of good. 1122.— The Chairman : That is a very ambitious view to take — to pay parents to let their children go. I think, in any system of scholarships we organise, we should take into consideration the question of travelling expenses ; but to attempt to pay parents for children being taken away from work would be impossible. Witness: I mean that the scholarships should be of such value that it would be worth while parents denying themselves for the sake of the children. The Chairman : Well, we should endeavour to make the scholarships commensurate with the expense. 1123 — Mr MooRE : Have you reflected that, according to jour calculation, 60 children out of the 99 who you suppose would avail themselves of the central school would be in Peel, and only 39 in the country districts; and have you also borne in mind that one of the most important subjects is navigation, which would be mainly for Peel boys ? Do you still think St. John's would be the best centre ? Witness : I do not think St. John's, on the whole, is the best centre; I think it is the most convenient, but, on the whole, I think Peel is the best. May I suggest another mode of encouraging secondary edncation ? The Chaiman : Perhaps it might be well to answer the questions of the Commissioners 72 MB WM. POTTS' EVIDENCE. first; then we would be glad to hear any supplementary remarks. 1124. — Mr Drinkwatee : You have given a raostpainstaking report, Mr Potts. I am afraid, however, it is not very encouraging with regard to the experiments you have made so far in furthering education. For instance, the classes that you have had tor chip-carving have not been a success. Witness : That was done before I came to Peel. That was not my work. Mr Drinkwater : But still it h.is been tried here. Witness: From all I have heard, I do not think they have been a permanent success. The work has not been carried on. 1125 — Mr Drinkwater : The art class doHS not seen to have succeeded ? Witness : That failed. 1126 — Mr Drinkwater : The basket making? Witness: There are only about two in Peel carrying on that work. 1127.— Mr Drinkwater: What about the cookery classes? How far have they been carried on up to the present time ? Witness: I think the report states that. So far as I can make out, the cookery classes were not taken advantage of by those for whom they were primarily intended. There seems to be an amount of prejudice against what are called new-fangled methods, and I should net say, so far as I can learn, that they have resulted in any great good. 1128. — Mr Drinkwater': Then , about navi- gation,which is a prime need in Peel— seeing the fine seamen it turns out — what success has that had ? Witness : Classes were formed by Vicar Williams, Mr Matthews, of Glenmoar, and I think by Vicar Cowley as well. Those gentle- men were, I think, very earnest in the matter, and were prepared to do everything they could to help young fellows to study the subject; but for some reason the classes did not succeed, and the work came to an end. I have often offered privately to do all I could to help in this work. I cannot teach navigation, but I could help in the mathematical part, and give the pupils a first start. But there seems to be no desire whatever on the part of the younger fellows to take up the study. 1129.— Mr Drinkwater: To what would you attribute the failure ? Witness : It seems to be due to a general lack of interest. 1130. — Mr Drinkwater : How, in the face of that, are the Commissioners to recommend further attempts? Why should further attempts prove more successful than these attempts which have hitherto been made ? Witness: I think that something might be done to rouse an interest in the question, and try and lead youths to see it is to their interest to study and try and fit themselves for higher posts. 1131.— The Chairman: Have there been any attenipts in Peel so far to teach navigation systematically ? Witness : Not systematically. 1132.— The Chairman : Then the thing has hardly been fairly tried ? Witness : No, unless you call the trial by these gentlemen a fair trial. They were very competent. Vicar Williams had a Master's certificate, and so had Mr Matthews, and Mr Cowley knew something about navigating a boat. 1 believe they were very earnest in the matter, and did their level best to get together a class. It seemed to go on two or three weeks, and then gradually died off. 1133. — Mr JouGHiN : At present, Mr Potts, have you a grant for teaching naviga- tion in the elementary schools ? Witness; We could earn a grant of 2s or 3s per head for each child taught the subject, but the question of time and staff raised a bar, and we had to give it up for the present. 1134. — Vir Joughin: It is not one of the regular subjects taught ? Witness : No, it is one of the specific sub- jects — the same as mensuration, algebra, and things of that kind. 1135. — The Chairman: But it is contem- plated in connection with elementary schools? Witness : According to the code, you may count on it. 1136. — Mr Drinkwater : I presume, as a matter of fact, that the children's time is so taken up that there is not much time for taking that subject? Witness : There is not much time, ft cer- tainly does not pay — putting it on that ground; because, as the Education Act is framed at present, we may earn the full grant, and yet not receive a penny of the money. 1137. — Mr Joughin : Don't vou think, if a Higher Grade School was opened, and naviga- tion became one of the regular subjects to be taught in the school, that the children would stick to it better and treat it as part of their work ? Witness : I think so. 1138. — Mr Joughin : At the present time, when you try to get up a class, do you not find that some of the bigger boys are, per- haps, going to other trades, and do not intend to go to sea ? Witness: Yes. At the same time, many of these lads are quite competent to take up these subjects. They have had a good education, and have done enough mathematics to help them on a little. One of the boys who left Peel to enter the navy found that the mathe- matics he had done at school were a valuable help, and enabled him to go ahead among other lads on the training ship. 1139. — Mr Drinkwater : Turning for a moment to agriculture. What would you recommend in the way of teaching that subject ? Witness : I recommend in my report models or diagrams of the latest improved agricultural instruments, specimens of bee-hives, and so on; and small libraries in different parts of the district, containing works on gardening, agri- culture, book-keeping, butter making, and so on. 1140. — Mr Drinkwater : In England, they have colleges for scientific work. I suppose you would not recommend anything of the MR WM. POTTS' EVIDENCE. 75 kind here? It would be more elementary work you would recommend? Witn'^ss : There is a ci'ntre very near to the Island— Aspatria, in Cumberland — so I think it would be rather a waste of in"ney to make a separate esfablishment here, and undoubtedly it would be very expensive. 1141. — Mr 1)KINKWATEB : Another method largely adopted in the cninties of England is to huve peripatetic teachers goin£» round teach- ing different subjects. One experiment has been made here in dairy work. Have you any experience of how that has worked in this district ? Witness: I made as careful infjuiries as I could with regard to that, and I learned that the methods taught by the peripatetic teachers were not very acceptable to those who attended the classe-.'and tbat, from one cause or ap other, the people went back to their old methods, and only about two were usin^ the new methods. I was informed that that arose from the cir- cumstance that the farms ai-e small, and it would be a considerable exp-nse to adopt the new apparatus. The people in the country districts take up a new idea very slowly. 1142 — Mr Drinkwatek : Then do you thiiik the ( ommissioners would be ri^ht in recommending experiments of this nat\ne, when tbe result is that they are cast aside after a short time? Witntss: If the work was begun when the people were younger, and were prepared to receive newer ideas, I think, in the course of a few years, they might be successful. Mr Drinkwater: Then you would recom- mend continuance of the same class of exoeriments — I have merely mentioned dairy- ing as yet — only amongst younger people ? Witness : I think I would. Mr Drinkwater; I suppose directly after they leave school ? Witness: I think the soorer you get hold of them tbe better. 1143. — Mr Drinkwater : Amongst the agricultural community, as soon as the children pass the Standards, they are wanted in the fields. They have then probably lost any desire to return to school. Unless there was some mevns of compelling them, do ycu think you could get them to attend? Witness : I think the need is so great that it would be advisable to make the experiment beginning with them as young as possible. 1144._Mr Drinkw»tek : Do yon think that instruction could be given with regard to farrierj — x knowledge of tbe anatomy of a horse's hoof, how a horse should be shol, and so on ? Witnes-^; I should think that subject would be too tei.'buical. 1145— Mr Drinkwatek : Taking laundry work -could that be managed in the same way by a travelling school ? Witness : The schools are so small in the country. I should not say so; but if a centre was formed, laundry work should certainly be easily taught. 1146. — Mr Drinkwater : Looking at it from an economical point of view — you must have a centre for the teaching of these sub- jects; that means a permanent staff for evtry subject that is necessary. Do you think, by having classes in l«undiy work one year, dairy work another ytar, and about poultry — how to prepare them for the table, and so on — another year, you could g-adually develop the taste for this kind of education without incurring so much expense as would be caused by having centres for each subject in the Island ? Witness: I think it is a very reasonable suggestion, and very practical. 1147 — Mr Drinkwater : Have you any idea of what the cost o' a Higher Grade School would be ? Witness : If ynu take the Higher Grade School in Douglas as a basis, and increase that by perhaps ten per cent., pro rata according to the number of scholars, you would get some idea of the cost. It would be a smaller school in Peel, and, therefore, more costly. Mr Drinkwater: I think we should be right in putting down the cost of the Higher Grade School in Douglas at about £5 per annum and fees. That is, £7 per head for those who have passed the higher standard. Witness: That is in the organied science school. I do not think you could do it on tbat money in the country districts. 1148. — Mr Drinkwater : Then do .vou think tbe country would be prepared tu ace pt a rate for that purpose? Witness : In Peel, I think a penny rate only produces about £40, and I do not think they would be prepared to pay a rate at all com- mensurate with the cost of a Higher Grade •School, to be maintained in Peel, at the expense of Peel. 1149.— The Chairman : Of course, the cost of ertoting a school would be large, and would involve a heavy rate. But, supposing the means could be found in the Island for building a school, do you think that the people would object to pay a small rate of a penny or twopence towards the maintenance? Mr JouGHtN: In addition to the school fees ? Witness : They would not object to pay a penny or twopence, but I am of opinion that it will come to a larger sum. I should say it it would be more like sixpence in the pound. The Chairman : I think we had better not let that go forth to the public as our view. You cannot tell what the recommendations of the Commissioners may be. They might recommend that some of the cost should come out of the revenue. You might further have the income of the endowments of the Grammar School. Then if you had a rate of 2d, it would produce dfiSO a year in Peel — let alone the outlying districts. By fees, too, you might get sufficient. Witness- What I mean is that I do not think the people of Peel would be at all pre- pared to pay a large rate, with trade and rates as they are at present. Mr Drinkwater : By a large rate you mean a penny or twopence extra in the £ ? Witness : I mean anything over threepence. Mr Drinkwater : You think they might be prepared to pay anything up to threepence ? Witness : For a good higher grade school — yes. 7* MR WM. POTTS' EVIDENCE. 1150. — Mr Drinkwater : Would the country be equally favourable ? Witness : I cannot say. 1151. — Mr Drinkwater : Do you think that the extra staff which would be required for continuation schools, and the alteration of buildiuors, would cost as much as a central school? Witness : I think, on the whole, altering the buildings, and providing peripatetic teachers, that the district might be worked a little more econoiuically that the central school. I do not think there would be very much difference in the cost. 1152. — Mr Drinkwater : Your answers so far have been limited to the night schools. You do not include the day schools ? Witness : No. 1153.— Mr Drinkwater : But the scholar- ships you thiuk a highly practical way of encouraging secondary education? Witness : Highly practical. 1154 —Mr Drinkwater : I should like a little more in detail what you mean. Would you say the children should begin at twelve years old ? Witness : I should say 13. Let them pass standard six, and then throw them open. Mr Drinkwater: Of course it would naturally be a certain standard. About 13 would be the age ? Witness: Yes. 1155. — Mr Drinkwater : How many years ■would you continue them at tht higher school? Witness : Three. 1156. — Mr Dkinkwater : Would you have examinations at the elementary schools every yerr, to see that boys and girls were qualified? Witness : I think I would accept the report of the head master of the school to which they belonged. 1157. — Mr Drinkwatbe : What do you think should be the amount of the scholarship p Would you say the fees and travelling ex- penses ? Witness : The fees, travelling expenses, and cost of books. 1158.— Mr Dkinkwater : So that there should be no charge to the parents beyond the cost of their living ? Witness; Exactly. 1159.— Mr Drinkwater : Would you have the scholarships perfectly open, or would you limit them to the poorer people? Witness : I should limit them, as they do in England, to people below a certain income. 1160. — Mr Drinkwater : You think there would be no difficulty in ascertainino- that ? Witness : I think not. 1161.— The Chairman : You would limit them, I suppose, to the scholars in the element- ary school ? Witness: I should not like to say that. There might be some poorer children in Grammar Schools at Douglas, Ramsey, or Castletown, if those schools were opened. The Chairman : Our object would not be to promise such scholarships for the children of parents who were well able to send them to the higher schools, like King William's College. Our object would be to aid brilliant scholars in the elementary schools to go up. Witness : I should limit the scholarships to those parents who are anxious to have a better educatioa for their children, but who cannot aflFord to give it them. 1162' — Mr Drinkwater : Would the edu- cation at a Higher Grade School at Douglas or elsewhere be more suitable than that at King William's College ? Witness : I should think that at the Higher Grade School at Douglas would be more practical. 1163. -Mr Drinkwater : Do you think it would be feasible to have scholarships for those children that went to the Higher Grade School, and then have a continuation of them to King William's College? Witness : I think so. 1164 — Mr Drinkwater: To make the Higher Grade School a first step? Witness : Yes. 1165-— Mr Drinkwater: Does it strike ycu as a difficulty that the breaking into the boy's cai'eer, taking him from one school and putting him to another, would interfere with his further development? Witness ; Not if the education were co-ordinated, making it possible for the boy to be climbing all the time, and not stepping down— and arranging that there should be some continuity in the same scheme of work, and seeing that the lad worked to some definiie end. Mr Drinkwater : That involves rather a delicate question. 1166 — Mr Ktmer : In the elementary schools have you found a difficulty in working the upper standards ? Do you think the boys in standards six and seven get the attention you would like to give them ? Witness: Tlicy do not. That is the great weakness of our system. 1167. — Mr MooKE : That is so in Peel, as well as in the country districts ? Witness : Less so in Peel than in the country districts. They have not the staff. It is so even in Peel. 1168. — Mr MoORE : In connection with the evening continuation schools — you look on those more in the light of continuing the education of the boys who have left the day schools, rather than taking the place of a central institution fur young boys of — say 14 ? Witness : I should like to give an oppor- tunity to the elder boys and girls who are at present at the day schools, to attend the evening continuation classes, for the purpose of doing any joinery, or cookery, &c., that they may feel interested in. 1169. — Mr Moore : In connection with the scholarships to Kiug William's College and the Higher Grade School, don't you think the success of that greatly depends on how long a boy is going to attend school? Witness : Quite so. Mr Moore : If a boy is going to attend up to 16 or 18, it would make a diflFer- ence as to which place he should have his scholarship? Witness : It would. MRS LAUGHTON'S AND MR E. T. CHRISTIAN'S EVIDENCE. 75 MRS. LACJGHTON'S EVIDENCE. U70 — The Chairman : I know you take a great interest in tbe education of the young in Peel. Will you kindly tell the Commission whether there is a large demand in Peel for classes to teach subjects included in secondary education? Witness : I am afraid it is rather a difficult question to answer. So far as my own experi- ence goes, such classes succeed for a tiuie, but I do not think they have any practical resu't. We have net been able to keep up such classes in Pefl hitherto. First of all, we started draw- ing classes in connection with South Keneing- ton. There was a certain amount of success at first. They entailed a great deal of work in looking up pupils, and were carried on for two years, but eventually they did not pay, and had to be discontinued. 1171. — The Chairman : That was in draw- inp? Witness : Yes. Unless we went round urgently canvassing, we found a great falling off in the attendance at the classes. 1172. — The Chairman : You are speaking of girls ? Witness : Girls and boys. Of course, these classes were not in connection with any special schools. If we had had classes in connection with elementary schools, we should not, of course, have had to go round the town to get pupils to attend. 1173. — The Chairman: That is not thepoint at present. What we want to get at is whether there is any likelihood of the people of Peel availing themselves of such classes if they were established, and from what you say the prospect does not seem very bright. Witness : Well, my own experience is not encouraging. 1174". — The Chairman: In regard to cookery classes, do you think the people of Peel would feel sufficient interest in them to make them a success ? Witness: I think such classes would have the best chance of success in connection with elementaiy schools. 1175. —The Chairman: Extending the view for a moment, can you give us any information as to the outlying parishes ? Witness : No, my work has been in Peel. 1176. — Mr Dbinkwater: You have tried to get up navigation classes in Peel; with wuat success ? Witness : It was tried for a short time by the Vicar, Mr Cowley, but great difficulty was found in getting men to come to it. They came for a short time, and then got tired. I suppose Peel is not different from anywhere else. It is rather difficult to get up an interest in these classes, but I think a practical navi- gation school ought to be a success in Peel, because I know so many men who say they wish they had learnt navigation earlier. I think if navigation was thoroughly well taught here it would be a boon to the people. 1177. — Mr Dbinkwater : Do you think girls would attend evening continuation schools, after they leave day schools, to obtain in- struction in cookery, dairywork, and so forth ? Witness : That is rather a difficult question, because it would depend upon what trade they took up. 1178.— Mr Dbinkwater : What do they do when they leave school? Witness : Many go to service, and others go to dressmaking, or to serve in shops. 1179.— Mr Drinkwatek : I suppose what- ever classes are started, the summer time should not be chosen, if they are to be a success ? Witless: It would be difficult to keep together such classes in the summer time, the men being away at Kinsale, and the women busy. 1180. — Mr Drinkwater: Do you think such subjects as cookery, laundry, and dairy work should be compulsory subjects ? Witness: I think there would be a gi-eater chance of their being taken up if they were made compulsory, because children do not know what is best for them. 1181.— Mr Etmer: In connection with the navigation classes, did you find the pupils properly prepared to take advantage of a course of instruction in this subject? Witness : I had nothing personally to do with them. I have heard Mr Cowley speak of them. He said the men were interested in his teaching, but the classes did not continue. 1182.— The Chairman : You think they were satisfactorily taught by Mr Cowley ? Witness : As far as I could judge. 1183— Mr Rtmer : Was there sufficient apparatus to work out the problems? Witness : Tbe teaching was in an early stage, and the classes did not go on long enough to make apparatus requisite. EVIDENCE OF MR E. T. CHRISTIAN, H.K. 1184.— The Chairman, addressing Mr E. T. Christian, said : You are a member of the House of Keys for Glanfaba, and you belong to and live in this district ? Witness : Yes. 1185.— The Chairman: Will you tell the Commissioners what are your views as to the need of a system of secondary education for this district ? Witness : I think there is a great need for a school of the nature of a Higher Grade School in Peel. 1186. -The Chairman : Do you think that as time went on it would be more realised as a boon to the people, if such a school was established in the neighbourhood? Witness : I certainly think it would be. In fact I have heard a great mauy people express a wish that there was such a school here. 1187.— The Chairman : Do you take the same view as Mr Potts as to the willingness of the people of the district to avail themselves of such an institution ? Witness : I think, so far as concerns the town of Feel, you could depend upon an attendance of from SO to 100 scholars. 1188. — The Chairman ; Do you think Peel the best centre — better than St. John's ? 76 MR E. T. CHRISTIAN'S EVIDENCE. Witcess : Well so far as literary teaching is concerned, I think so. I do not think you cou d run a Higher Grade f chool for teaching sfeoial sulijects such as agriculture, dairying, and so forth, because as far as Peel is concerned, it has nothing to do with such subjects, and, therefore, to establish here a school to teach such subjects would be a mistake. The Chairman: On the whole, do you agree that a central school at Peel would be the most advsintaijeous for the district ? Witness : I do. 1189- — The Chaiuman : You have heard what has been said about the promotion of continuation schools, and the providing of scholarships. Do you still think that a central school here wnuld be the best means for pro- moting secondary education ? Witness: I think a centi-al school for that purpose would be better than continuation schools. If you have a central Higher Grade School the children will be sent there by their parents, and they will have to learn certain subjects. If you have a continuation school, which may be attended or not, I do not think the results will be so satisfactory. 1190. — The Chairman: Do you think the establishment and maintenance of a central Higher Grade School at Peel would be belter for Peel than the resuscitation of the Gram- mar School ? Witness : If the funds of the Grammar School could be legally made available to assist a Higher Grade School, I think it would be much better for the town. I think a Higher Grade School has the best chance of earning the Government grants, and so make the fees less for each scholar, than if there was a Grammar School which bad to be wholly supported by fees. 1191. — Mr JouGHiN : Are you acquainted generally with the opinion of the people of Peel on this subject ? Witness : I have been speaking to a great many people iu the town who have children, for whom they would like to obtain a superior education after they get to a certain ate. 1192. — Mr MooKE : I suppose we may take it that the Grammar School has been a failure ? Witness: Yi's ; the endowment, along with the amount paid in fees by the scholars, not being sufficient to mitintain an efficient teach- ing staff, 1193. — Jtr Moore : Has the failure been the fault of the working of the school, or was the style of education not the most suitable? Witness : First of all, the style of education was not suitable, perhaps, for the best scholars after a certain nge; and another reason for the failure was that there were not sufficient funds to work the school as it ought to have been worked- 1194. — The Chairman : Suppose we con- sider the requirements in regard to elementary education, do you think such requirements are met by the Clothworkers' School? Witness : Yes ; till the children get to a certain standard. The Chairman : That is what I mean. Witness : I think they get a very good elementary education in all the schools of the town. 1195. — Mr Moore : You include the sixth standard ? Witness : I think most of the children in Board Schools leave before they get to the 6th standard. 1196.— The Chairman : Which do you think is the better course, to improve and enlarge the structures forming the existing schools and increasing the staff of teachers, or to spend the money in estaolishing a Higher Grade School ? Witu-'PS : Decidedly to spend the money in establishing a Higher Grade School. 1197. — The Chairman : Supposing it was found necessary to subsidise a Higher Grade School for P.'el by a rate, do you think the appreciation of the value of the school in Peel would be such that they would be willing to contribute to such a rate ? Witness: I think the great bulk of the people would have no hesitation in accepting a rale of 2d. 1198. — The Chairman : Suppose, in addi- tion to the central school, we have a system of scholarships for the more brilliant scholars in the outlying portions of the district to this central school, do you thipk then the want of secondary education will be tolerably well supplied for the whole district? Witness : I think that would be the best and the cheapest way of supplying the want. 1199. — The Chairman : ^Ve are very much obliged to you for putting the matter so clearly before us. In your judgment a central school is preferable to an enlargement of the present school buildings, and the best plan in regard to the outlying districts is to provide scholarships to the central school ? Wiiness : Yes. 1200. — Mr MooRE : It seems to me that your view is a little different to that expressed by Mr Potts as to the number that would attend the central school from the outlying district. He put the number down as flO from Petl and 40 from the outlying district. You put the number of scholars likely to come from Peel higher; do you not think there will be 40 from the outlying parts of the district? Witness: 1 do not think there will be forty from th-' country districts. 1201 —The Chairman : Your figures amount to aoout the same. You think there will be 80 from Peel and 20 from the outlying district ? Witness : YrS. 1202. — Mr Deinkwater : Would you have anything dom- in the way of teaching agri- culture ? Witntss: 1 think if peripatetic teachers went round it would be an advantage so far as dairying is coi-cerned. 1203.— Mr Drinkwater : Would you limit the teaching to dairying, or would you join with it, for girls, cookery and laundry work? Witness : As to cookery and laundry work, it is a question whether the result would warrant the expense that would be incurred in country schools; but cookery should be taught in town schools. MR PRESTON'S AND MR W. J. CANNELL'S EVIDENCE. 77 1204- — Mr Drinkwater : I suppose a good number of the children go into domestic service ? Witness: Yes, a good number. 1205.— Mr JouGHiN : In the central school nouid you take children in the third standard, as at Douglas ? Witness : I think as low as the fourth standard. 1206. — Mr Etmer : la the case of children whose parents could affcrd to pay the fees of the higher grade school, would you be in favour of scholarships being giv-n to them ? Witness : Provided they showed ability which would warrant the passing them on from one school to the other. 1207. — Mr Kymer : There is another point on which I would like to ask you a question. Some of those who have been examined have been asked questions as to the reliitive ages of those who attended schools at night for le.irn- ing navigation, and whether the result could be taken as a criterion of the results of estab- lishing such classes in schools. Do you think it can be so taken ? Witness : I do not think so. I believe if those subjects vieie taught in schools, the results would be different. MR PRESTON'S E\nDENC£. 1208. — The Chairman: 1 bidiive you are chaiiinan of the School CommiLlee at Peel? Wiiness ; Yes. 1209. — The Chairman: You hav.t heaid the opinion expressed by Mr Chrisii.in, to the cfTect that the provision of a }li her Griide School in Peel would be acceplabl. , and that it would be better than resuscitating the Grammar School. May I ask if you generally agree with that view ': Witness : I quite agree with the view — that is the desire of the inhabitants of Peel. 1210- — The Chairman : Do you agree with him likewise in thinking that they would be willing to pay an education rate of a reason- able amount— not exceeding, say 3d in the £ ? Witness: I do not think any reasonable man in Peel would object to pay i rate of Id up to 3d, if required. 1211.— The Chairman : The difficulty to my mind is the distance from euMying districts. Is there anything you would sufjgest to britig in the outlying districts to share the advantages? Would the system of scholar- ships attract them ? Witness: I think the outlying districts should avail themselves of the sauif privileges as Peel. If they avail theiiiselves of the Higher Grade School in Peel, they ought to have the same privileges as the Peel scholars. They ought to have the advantages of scholar- ships. 1212.— The Chairman : But you cannot give them the same advantages. Here are people living two or three hundred yards away from the school. It is obvious they have greater advantages than people living two or three miles away. Witness : The only advantage is the distance. Do you mean that the outlying districts should have the scholarships in preference to Peel .' T e Chairman: I do not say in preference to Peel. Yiiu would have in your midst — if this schetne is carried out — this Hisher Grade School. That will be available for all the people in the town. But when you come to think of Foxdale, Kirk Michael, Crcnk-y- Voddy, Dalby, and so forth — how are you uoing to give those people, as nearly as you can, the advantages of the school in the same way as to the people of Peel ? Witness : You cannot give them the advantages to the same extent. 1213.— The Chairman : I have thrown out the idea that scholarships to the outlying districis would be the best thing. I asked if you could see anything else ? Witness : As far as scholarships are con- cerned, I quite agree with the idea of Mr Christian, that these scholarships should be offered. 1214 — Mr JouGHis : You mean that they should be open to the children of the whole district ? Witness : Ves. The Chairman: As this witness has expressed himself so evidently in favour of the view put forward by Mr Christian, it is no use examining him further on other points. I will take nest, Mr Cannell, of Peel. MR W. J. CANNELL'S EVIDENCE. 1215. — I'he Chairman: Are you a member of the School Committee, Mr Cannell ? Mr Cannell : I was a member of the late Committee, but not of the present one. 1216. — The Chairman : Then you have been connected with the education movement in Peel ? Wiiness : Yes. 1217. — I'he Chairman : You have heard the views expressed by Mr Christian and Mr Preston just now, namely, that the best mode of meeting the requirements ,is rrgirds second- ary education for this disirict will be the erection of a Higher Grade School in the town of Peel. Are you of that opinion ? Witness : I am 1218 — The Chairman : Could you cor- roborate the view that Mr Christian bas put before us, that it would be attended by 100 to 120 ciiildren? Witness : I should think that would be a reasonable view to take of it. The Chairman : Without tying yours.'lt to exact figures, you would expect that number to attend ? Witness: Yes. 1219. — The Chairman : Are you likewise of opinion that the endowments of the Grammar School might fairly be taken to support such a movement, and that the peopla of Peel would recognise that these funds were 78 MR T. C. KERMODE'S EVIDENCE. best employed in increasing the income of the Higher Grade School ? Witness : The people of Peel would hii;h!y appreciate such a move, and would think it was right to employ those funds for the best interests of the town. At present it is quite a sore point that those endowments aie not utilised for the benefit of the present children in Peel. Many of our children have to go out of the town to obtain a secondary or higher jrade education — in fact, I know of families leaving the town because they could not obtain the education they wanted. We have also heard of families who intended coming to Peel to reside, who, when they inquired into the education provided for chil- dren, refused to come, because they could not, in Peel, receive that education which they thought it necessary their children should receive. On that account I a^ree with Mr Christian, and also with the Chairman of the Peel School Committee, — 1220 — that the ratepayers of Peel would not object to a reasonable rate in order to provide a better and more efficient education for the children. Mr Dbinkwater : That would be a rate up to threepence ? Witness : Yes. 1221. — Mr DiiiNKWATER : Are there any children in Peel attending the Higher Grade School in Douglas ? Witness : There are some children going to Douijlas for education, and others to Ramsey, that we know of. 1222. — Mr Rymer : In case the people of Peel had to pay a rate of say tivopence or threepence in the pound, would they think they were badly treated by having to admit children from the outlying districts who pay no rate ? Witness : They would consider that the admission of outside scholars would be a profit and benefit to the rchool by means of the granis they would earn, and that they would tend to increase the income of the school ; and BO I think there would be no objection what- ever on the score of outside children. The Chairman : I am glad to hear that they take that view. The organised scitnce school in Douglas earns over .£6 per head in grants. Therefore, the children coming in from the out- lying districts and earning .£6 per head would tend to the well-being of the school and to the lowering of the expense per head. MR T. C. KERMODE'S EVIDENCE. 1223. — The Chairman : I believe you have been connected with the trade of Peel for many years ? Witness : Yes, and six years a member of Pael School Dommittee. 1224. — The Chairman : You have heard the views put forward by Mr Christian, and supported by the last two witnesses — Mr Preston and Mr Cannell — namely, that a central Higher Grade School in Peel would be the best mode of meeting the needs of the district. Are you of that opinion ? WitneFS : I am. I agree fully with what has been said. 1225. — The Chairman : You think there is a real need in Peel for the education such a school would give ? Witness : There has been for the last 10 or 15 >earo. 1226. — The Chairman : Do you agree with respfCt to the endowments of the old Gram- mar School being taken to assist in the movement? Witness: The end iwments of the Mathe- matical .School and the Grammar School, which, accordiTig to my calculation, amount to over £90, and not to i£60, ought to be available for these purposes. 1227. — Mr JoDGHiN : Do you mean that the whole of the tunds belonging to the Gramnjar School and the Mathematical School ought to be taken to provide for the erection of these schools ? Witness: Yes; I coun'ed that, altogether, upon the income arising from the endowments would be over ^690 a year. 1228 — The Chairman: I think you may leave that to the Commissioners. You think it would be a proper appropriation of the income of the trusts? Witness : Yes. Tlie Chairman: In fact, just as the Charily Commissioners deal with charities in England, so we might deal with this; and v/e miglit fairly reC'aiimend the Legislature to hand over these funds to a higher grade school ? Witness : Yes. 1229 — The Chaiiiman : In your judgment, would that meet with the goodwill of the people ((f Peel ? Witness : Generally, yes. 1230. — The Chairman : What say you with regaid to the probable number of children that would attend from Peel? Witness: I think there would be 60 to 70 from Peel, and the outlying districts would uuduiibtodly send some to the higher grade school. Distance is nogreat object ; informer years, they sent them from Michael, Poxdale, ■iiid Marown, to the Grammar and Mathe- matical Schools here. 1231. — The Chairman : Not as day- scholars surely ? Witness: Yes, as day-scholars. In fact nearly all the day-scholars came from a distance, thirty or forty years ago, and they had to walk it. Tliere were the Gells, of Wbitehouse, Mr Peter Cadinan, A. Matthews and bis brothers, and others. They came from Glfnmaye, Dalby, Foxdale, and so on, and all these walked in daily. 'I here is no reason why children who have passed the fifth and sixth standard should not go backwards and forwards. Many of them have bicycles and would use them, and many would use the railway. Distance of a few miles has nothing to do with it. The Chairman : It is a question of time as well. For instance, scholars from Michael would have to travel twelve miles a day. Witness : I know four scholars who come daily to school in Peel from Cronk-y-Voddy ; DR. FAEAKER'S EVIDENCE. 79 in fact, they attend the elementary school from Cronk-v-Vciddy, four miles distant. 1232. — The Chairman : At any rate, you think that 60 to 70 children would attend from Peel, and the number might be made up to 100 from o-jtlying districts ? Witness : Yes. It you make it a mixed school you would have more. 1233.— The Chairman : The last witness expressed the opinion that the people of Pe 1 would not object to children coiuinjr in From the outlying,' parishes that do not pay a rate. Are you lif that opinion? 1234 — Witness : I think it would be a great help til the school, and a profit t> the school. Peel people are now interested in liigher educa- tion, and they wou d not oliject to a rate being required. Mr MoOKE : I think it should be clearly undi rstood that the school contemplated would be a mixed school. The Chairman : It wtuki be similar to the one in Douglas. Mr Rymek : Would yiu confine it to those who have passed a certain hiandsirdv I do not approve of hi'ving the third sttndnni. We start with the third in Ujii^'las simply because «■« have no arranj^ement with other tchools wliat time children ^ll0^lhl leave to come to us. Mr JouGHIN : That would be he ler decided when we see how the school is attended. 1235. — Mr Dkinkwater: Supposing the pupi's from the country cost £o \>"T head — would the town be equally ready to have them? AVitr.ess: I presume it is Very likely that the shiirpest lads would come from I ho-e places into this school, and that, therefore, they would be likely to pass the examinations success- fully, and earn all the grants it was possible to earn. 1236. — Mr Dfinkwater: At present the grants are all paid by the Insular Govern- ment. Supposing the Insular CJovernment could not afi'ord to pay all rhese grants, and the funds had to be fi.uud by rate? Witiie?s: It the people demand that higher education should he given, the money can be found. 1237. — Mr Deinkwateb : My question is, woud the people of Peel be still prepared to pay £5 per head for the country children ? Witness : Vt'n have not sufficient experience of a Higher Grade School. What would you require them to pay? If we put up schools, and if they failed in the grants and the schools did not pay, there would have to be some recompense — there would have to be some arrangement come to with the School Com- mittees that for every child sent in they would have to pay a certain sum. DR. FAEAKER'S EVIDENCE. 1238.— The Chairman : Well, Dr. Faraker, you have heard the views put forward by the preceding witnesses, that the best mode of providing secondary education in this district is by the erection of a central school at Peel ; do you concur with that ? Witness : I do. 1239 — The Chairman: Do you concur like- wise in what has been said as to the probable attendance at such a school ? Witness: I anticipatt! something of the kind. I have a knowledi;e myself of the Mathematical School at Peel, which was attended by at least 60 or 70. It was a high school, second to none in the Isle of Man, more especially in navigation. 1240. — The Chairman : As an inhabitant of Peel, and from your knowledge of the district do you concur in the opinion as to the fairness and advisability of appropriating the endow- ment of the old Grammar School for supporting a central Higher Grade School ? Witness : Yes, I think it would be well appropriated if navigation was taught in the Higher Grade S -huol. In my time the Mathe- matical School wasessentially alechnicalschool, havipg sextants, and everything necessary for the teaching of navigation. Navigation was tl oroughly taught to the boys. Some of the boys •■f that time are prospering. One of them, who was at .school with me, i.s the Principal of the Nautical College at Liverpool, and is one of the greatest iiuthoiities ou navigation in the United Kingdom. The CHAtKMAN; That is inteiesting as tu the point of teaching navigation; but I want your view as to the appropriation of the old Grammar School endowment ? Witness : I think the endowment should be u.'ied fur the benefit of the boys who more especially need it— that is the boys of the pojrer class. When I was a pupil there, there w; re 14 free scholars. those boys had the sr..ie education, and wero placed on the same level as boys who were much higher socially; and I think, on account of the education they then received, they rank much higher in the sociiil .scale than they otherwise would have done. 1241 — Mr JoDGHIN: When you speak of 60 or 70 scholars that were at the Mathematical School in your lime, were they all boys ? Witness: Yes. 1242 -Mr JonGHiN : If a mixedschool was establish..d, do you think there would be more scholars ? WitneSo : I cannot say anything in regard to girls. I have not considered that aspect of the question, 1243. — Mr Drinkwater : I suppose the 60 or 70 boya were children of all ages, up to and not above a certain age ? Witness : I left school when I was 145 years of age. 1244 The Chairman : What, in your opinion, is about the number that would take advantage of the establishment of a Higher Grade School in Peel, and in the outlying parts of the district? Witiiess : I think the number spok'-n of, a hundred, well within the mark. I think, if a proper school is established, the people in the outlying districts will send their children to it. At the time I went to the Mathematical School a great number of the scholars belonged to the outlying districts^Kirk Michael, Ballaugh, 80 MR T. A. CORLETT'S EVIDENCE. Castletown, Douglas, St. John's, and other parts. The Chairman : What was the percentagp ? Witness: I should say that more than half of the better class of the sohulars belong to other districts. 1245. — The Chairman : You say " of the better . lass." I presume the better class have better facilities than the poorer class for reaching a central school ? Witness : Yes. 1246. — Mr Moore : How were the free scholaisuips obtained? Witness: I think more by nominations than by «xaminations 1247 — Mr MoOKE : How many scholarships were t.h»*re ? Witness : There were 14 in my time in the Mathematical School. 1 had nothing to do with the Grammar School, 1248. — Mr Joughin: The scholarships were obtaiued principally by nomination ? Witness : Yes. A c mdldate had to be up to a ceitain standard, but there was no formal examination. 1249.— Mr Moore : Supposing a Higher Grade School was established, would jon consider it a necessary part of it that there should be a certain number of free scholarships P Witness: Certainly. 1 think the endowments in connection with the Matbenuitical .Sc'iool were orij/inally intended to benefit the children of the poor of the town. They were intended to raise the poorer class to a higher level 1250.— Mr Joughin : At the present time there are twelve free scholai'ships. D > you think we ought to ket'p up the number? Witness: I do not know whether the number is twelve now. It was fourteen in my time. Mr JonoHiN : Two were knocked off. 1251— Mr Rymer : You think that, in estab- lishing a central school in which the education was thorough, the money would be well spent? Witness : I think so. Many of the boys in the Mathematical School were thoroughly well educated, and did credit to the Isle of Man. the Chairman: The amount of concurrence with respect to a central school which we have heard is very striking. It is more than we have heard in any of the otner centres we have visited. You all seem to be at one as to the deairabilily of having it, and as to the willing- ness of the people to pay a reasonable rate for it, if such a school were established. But, now, I think we ought to hear what are the views of the people in the outlying districts, and the first witness I shall take is Mr T. A. Corlett, of Ballaugh. MR. T. A. CORLETT'S EVIDENCE. 1252.— The Chairman : You have heard what is the view in Peel. There seems to be a general desire for a central school here. Would it be your opinion that the best centre for the district, which includts Ballaugh, should be Peel or St. John's ? Witness : I think tliat anything outside what might be provided in the parishes, would be altogether useless for the parishes in this neighbourhood. The Chairman : Even if you had scholar- ships? Witness : Even if you had scholarships. 1253 — The Chairman : Some of those who have given evidence to day have told us that, in days gone by, children did come from a considerable distance. What leads you to think that the views of parents have so altered in tLese days in the matter of education? Witness : Probably the instruction given in those days in the elementary cchools was not up to the standard of inslruction that is given now-a-dajs, and parents desirous of giving their children an extra good education were compelled to send them into town. 1254. — The Chairman : I do not wa:it you to alter your opinion. I am much obliged to you for (jiving it so frankly. You do not think the cliildien in the parish of Ballaugh wciuhi bennfit by the erection of a central sohnol here? Witness: I do not think the parents would avail themselves of the opportunity by sending thvir cliildren. 1255. — ' he Chairman : I fully appreciate the difference thnre is in education now, as compared with 40 or 50 years ago, and since the establishment of elementary schools in the district; but you must consider that we are proposing to give instruction in navigation, ai^riculture, and raining, and we are proposing a central school where young women would learn cook^^ry — which is a very important thing for making the house and home com- fortable in after life — laundry work, and so forth. Do you think parishes like Michael and Ballaugh, and villages like Cmnk-eVoddy would like to cut themselves entirely off from thnse opportunities? Witness: With regard to instruction in cookery and laundry work — I think it is most essential that they should be taught in every school. I thiLlc that orovision should be made in the pari.sh itself, either in the school, or that a cottage should be fitted up so that laundry work and cookery might be taught there. 1 think a cottage at a rent of ^4 or ^5 a year would be quite suflScient. I suppose the school at Ballautrh is as large as any in the north of the Island, and I suppose tliere are not more than 15 girls there above star.dnrd 5. 1256 — If there was a peripatetic teacher taking in the whole of the northern district of the Island, and giving a course of instruction with a demonstration lesson once a weeK, and a practical lesson once a week, or in alternate weeks — that would be all that is necessary. 1257.— Mr Btmer : Such a cottage would be used only one day a week; do you think it would be required more ? Witness : I suppose if one hour per week each subject was given for instruction, that would be as much as is given in most towns. In Liverpool, there is one hour — i.e., for laundry, cookery, and dairy work respectively. MR POTTS KE-CALLED. 81 1258.— Mr Rtmer: Yea; but there are Tarioua relays. Several scliools use the same room. Witness : If tbe class was too small, I do not see wby jjirls who have just left school should not be as-ked to join and share the advantaijes. 1259. — Mr Moore : Are you able to (;ive proper at ention to standards six and seven i- your schoiil? Witness: I do not think there is iiny elementary school teacher in the Isle of Man that can do it — I'.e., where, as in many cases, he has to supervise the whole school and leach standnriis thiee to seven. 1260.— Mr Moore: Don't you think it woull be possible lo provide instruction by a central school with a proper stafl ? Witness: I hink the better means woul'i be to have a capable efficient staff in each school. 1261. — Mr Moore : It would be probably the uiore expensive method. Witness : If the staffs of the present schools Were more capable, there would not be tbe aaine need. 1262. - Mr MooBK : If children went from Michael or Biilhiugh, do you think Peel or K;iiiisey would be the best centre? Witness : J suppose Ramsey would be tbe best. I hey would have to alter the trains in winter. They could not get there before 10 o'clock, 1263. — Mr Dbinkwater : Are you ainiini; at a general literary education or a technical education for different people, accoidini; to their wants? Do you think agriculture should be tauj^ht ? Witness : I do not know that there is any special desire on the part of tbe parents for instruction in aijriculture, thougu Ballauj^h is a purely agricultural district. 1264. — Mr Dbinkwater: What do the childieu do, as a rule, when they leave sch^'ol ? Witness: A good many of the boys go out as farm servants, and the girls also chiefly go as servants in the fariu.s round about. 1265. — \' r DkInkwater : I suppose cookery, laundry work, and poultry rearing would be most useful for the girls? Witness : I think it would be most useful for the girls to be taught cookery and the management of the dairy. 1266. — Mr Drinkwateb: Would they have any opportunity of learning that after they left school? Witness : If they got technical knowledge and good demonstration lessons given them after they leave school, they would be able to put it into practice. 1267. — Mr Dkinkwater : You don't think they could do it in >cho'il hours? Witness : I do not see why girls should not get an hour a week to attend classes in cookery, and even butter making, and that sort of thing. 1268.— Mr Dbinkwater: Do you think it could be done by peripatetic teachers doing district by district ? Witness : I should stron^jly advocate peri- patetic teachers for cookery, dairy woik, &c. 1269. —Mr Dbinkwater : Could you fiud room without getting buildings? Witness : I would suggest that a cottaga might be utilised. A great many of tbe Com- mittees in rural districts have premises at their disposal. There are old premises ia Ballaugh which can be had for a £i rental. If the instruction ia not worth £4, to the distric, it is not worth bavin?. 1270. The Chairman : What you aay has reference f the scholars in the country schools. You thii'k the girls could be taught cookery and laundry wo k by pe^ip^tetie teachers visiting the schools, either in school hours or by having evening continuation classes. But I do not think you have made allow, nee for exceptionally brilliant scholars. I presume, in Billaujjh and other districts, you do have exeeptionally brilliant scholars? You do not argue against a system of scholar- ships to enable them to no to a centre where they would be better taught — the apparatus being so infinitely better than that in the eleu)' ntary schools ? Winess; I would like to see scholarships provided, if there were sufficient to be of service to all poor men's clever children to ben« fit by The Chairman : I contemplate that you would have some brilliant scholars One boy who ilispia ed jireat brilliancy in classies or matb>maiics would need a scholarship to King Willi im's Collej^e. On the other hand, say you liad a tjoy who shows great biillancy with lespec to atrvicultureor some handicraft, you would want him to have a scholarship to thi c Lt al Hiifher Grade School. Witness: Yes; I think I would, provided the scholarships were of sufficient value to enible till sufficiently brilliant scholars to av lil ' bemselves of them. 1271. — Mr JouGHiN : Supposing you had a • c'oli.r who had gone through standard VII. at 13 years of age, and was still anxious to go on with higher subjects ? Witness: I think if the head teachers had more time at their disposal than they have at present, they coulil improve the education of the higher standards very much; they could take up a specific subject or two, and advance the i; neral curriculum of the higher standards. 1272. — ^1 r JouGHiN : Then we would require a srei.ter staff than we have at present ? Witness: The staff would have to be impr ved 1273- — Mr MooRE : Would it be possible to gel two or three schools to combine? To increase tbe staff of each school would be very exi.ensive. Witness: I suppose it would be a s irt of peripati tic teacher then ? Mr MooRE : Practically, yes. MR POT IS RE-CALLED. 1274. — The C HAIRMAN : I understand, Mr Potts, tnal you have a s.atcment to make, to supph-ment the evidence you have already given? Mr I'olts : I wish 'o say that 1 was residing a section of the Educational Blue-bock the 82 MR W. QUAYLE'S AND MR R. GELL'S EVIDENCE. r other day, and I find that, in some districts of Moray and Invernesshire, the Countv Council gives a bonus of something like £3 to boys who have passed tlie third stagre in every specific subject tauj^ht in the schools. That is an encouragement to the teachers to go on to higher parts, instead of stopping at the first or second stage. ME WILLIAM QUAYLE'S EVIDENCE. Mr Wm. Quayle (Ballamoar, Patrick! was the next witness. 1275 — The ChAibman: You have heard of the proposal to erect a central school to meet the need of higher education in tliis district. How far would it be of advantage to the children in Patrick? Witness: I think it would be of great advantage. The children did formerly go to the Mii'hematical Seliool, at Peel, 40 yearg ago, travelling two and two and a half miles, and I considar it would be a great deal better than having any Higher Grade School in the country, for the few who would avail them- selves of that kind of education. 1276. — I'he Chairman : Ou the whole, may we understand that you agree with the view expressed by the Peel witnesses, that that would be the best way of acting — namely, by the erection of a rentrnl school here, with scholarsliips for the brilliant scholars in yonr elementary schools at Patrick and other out- lying parts of I he district ? Witness : Yes, I do. 1277.— The Chairman : Y'ou think the central school would be better placed at Peel than at St. John's ? WilneES : Yes, much better at Peel. The children come from Patrick, Cronk-y-Voddy, and Kuk Michael. Peel is as central as St. John's fur any of those districts. 1278. -The Chairman : Would yon confine the scholarships to the children nf per parents? Witness: I would. They have more need of it than the better class of people. There are some very brilliant scholars in onr schools that liavi' rot the means to get along any further. 1279.— The Chairman : Then, speaking generally on behalf of Patrick, you think that a system such as we have spoken of to-day ■would be acceptable to, and welcomed by, the people of Patricii? Witness : I do. 1280. — Mr Drinkwater : Would they be prepared to pay a rale, if need be ? Witness : I question it, if the building was in Peel. So few would avail themselves of the opportunity of going to Peel, that it would be rather hard to rate the parish for it. The people in Patrick are principally of the iabour- iog class, and they would think hard of a rate to build another school. They have to pay sufScient already for the schools they have got. 1281. — Mr Drinkwater; I can quite under- stand them wanting to have a central school at Peel, if they bad not to pay for it; but in most cases you have to pay for advantages. I understand you to say that the Patrick people would like to share in the school, hut not in the cost of the school? Witness : The Board Schools in my parish are only too glad to get scholars from other parishes to come in. 1282. — The Chairman : Do many young men in Patrick go to sea? Witness : Yes, a good inany— about thirty, I suppose. 1283. — The Chairman : Would not instruc- tion in navigation be an important matter for them ? Witness : Yes. 1284.— The < hairman ; Do many apply themselves to agricultural pursuits Witness : Most of them, after fishing in the suuiiiier, go on the farms, 1285.— The Chairmak : Would instruction in cookery and laundry work be useful to the young women? Witness : It would be a very beneficial thing. Insiiuclion in laundry work, cooking, and [1286] dairy work, is very much needed. There were dairy classes carried on in Peel some time ago, and it was a great advantage, and made a great inipr'>vement in the butter from the neighbourhood. Tbey get a sale for the improved butter which otherwise they would not have had. 1287. — Mr Moore : Do you think the children iit I he far end of the parish — the Dalby end — would avail themselves of the Peel school ? Witneas : They wuuld. A few years ago many of them did. 1288. — Mr Moore : It wns suggested to us iu Rim-ey that the children of Jurby, Bride, and so forth would get over the difficulty by staying with friends in Ramsey, and boarding there for the week ? Witness: Yes; most of the people in our district have friends in Peel. 1289.— Mr JoUGHlN : I think you will reiueiuber .some Patrick boys going to the Grammar fcchool, in Peel, who afterwards commanded Ini-ge rhips and steamers ? Witness: Yes; I knew them very well some years ago. We went to the Grammar Scnool in the first instance, and to the Mathematical School afterwards. A great many good caotains were turned out of the Muthematical School, at Peel, in former times. 1290. — The Chairman : Then, to sum up, the promotion of secondary education iu this distiict is not a mere farl, taken np by educa- tionalists, but is a real want on the part of the people ? Witness : 1 consider it so. WE RADCLIFFE GRI.L'S EVIDENCE. Ml Radcliffe Gell (D.ilby) was called. 1291. —The Chaikman : What say you with regard to the scheme that seems to find favour chiefly — that there should be a central school here ? How would it affect the people of Dalby ? Witness: I do not know. It would be rather diffi.'uU. for them to get to it. 1292.— The Chairman: You think separate provision would have to be made in Dalby for MR T. KELLY'S AND REV J. CORLETT'S EVIDENCE. 85 a certain number of children who desire such education ? Witness : Well, I don't know. There are only a few. 1293. —The Chairman : How far are you fiom Peel? Witness : A good four miles — four and a half miles perhaps. 1294. -The Chairman : Do you tbiuk there is any number of boys in Dalby whose parents would desii'e th'»m to receive a hiijher educa- tion in navierat ion, agriculture, and so forth; and any number of g\i\a who would consider it a boon to ha»e further instruction in cookery, dajryins;, and laundry work ? Witness : There mi-jht be a few— just a very few. 1295. — The Chairman : Having regai-d to th«-isM young people, in what way would you think the wants of Dalby, and that part of the district, might be best met? Witness : I should think if the central scV.ool was made in Peel, that would be what is required. Of course it would be optional with the parents. I do not think there w,.Hld be many who would send their children. Of course we are far out, in Dalby. 1296. — Mr JonoHiN : Would there be any youug women who would go to town fi)r a quarter or two to get instruction in laundry and dairy work, and so on ? Witness : There might b'', if it was there. 1297. — Mr Drinkwater : Do you think they would object to a rate in Dalby ? Witness: Yes, I do. Very few would take advantage of the school. 1298. — MrJouoHiN: What isthe education rate of Patrick at present ? Witness: I think it is 2Jd. EVIDENCE OP MR T. KELLY. Mr T. Kelly, attendance officer in connection with the Peel School Committee, and clerk to Patrick and Peel Sctiool Committees, was the next witness examined. 1299.- The Chairman: You have heard the view put forward as to a central Higher Grade School for Peel, being the best mode of providing secondary education for the district. Do you concur in that view? Witness : Yes. 1300. — The Chairman • Do you know any- thing of the Higher Grade School at Douglas? Witness : I know there is such a school. 1301. — The Chairman : Do you know what is taught there? Witness : Yes. 1302. —The Chairman: I suppose, when you speak of concurring in the view that a central school should be estRblished at Peel, you mean a school of that kind. Witness : I mean a school of that kind, but I think that navigation should be specially tauiiUt there. 1303. —The CHAIRMAN: Do you thins, with the rest, that the people of Peel would be willing to pay a rate to support it ? Witness : Yes ; a fair rate. 1304. — The Chairman : By a fair rate you mean anything not exceeding 3d in the £ ? Witness : Yes. 1305. — The Chairman : Now, having regard to the outer districts of Patrick, St. John's, and so forth, do you see anything to lead you to the conclusion that St. John's would be better than Peel as the place for such a school? Witness : Peel would be the best in my opinion. I do not quite agree with some of the views expre.-sed lo-day with reference to the number that would come from the outlying distrir'ts. I t'dnk 40 is too high a numlier. 1306. — The Chairman: Do you tldik the nunii.er from Peel would be from 60 to 80? Witness : I agree as to the probable number from Peel, but I should put the number from the out lyiiig districts at 20. 1307. — I'be Chairman : Do you agree that tlie I umber of sciiolarshio^ required for the out lying districts for tl.e more brilliant scliolars of the schools in this district would be about 14 t ' a ceiitrni school at Peel ? Witness : Yes, und r certain cnndilions. 1308. — I'he Chhirman: What are the Coipoti >11S ? W tne-s : Well, if f .ity attend the school from the cull ing districts, that will equal one third of the whole number, and it would be unfair for Peel to provide accommodation for these 40 children without the outlying districts pajiiig a penny towards the rates The Chairman : I do not say that Peel should piovide the scholarships. Witness : I meant accommodation. Ml- Ji'UOHiN : You mean that the outlying districts should contribute by rate for the support of the school ? Witness ; Yes — in proportion to the number they send. 1309. -The Chairman : Suppose they did not coiitrtbute, still it would not be of great dis- advantage to Peel to take scholarsfrom the out- lying district, because the larger the number the cheaper the school would be worked. Witness: Yes; that might be said for any school, but they should pay for the extra accommodation provided. REV. JOHN CORLE I'T'S EVIDENCE. 1310.— The Chairman : In regard to the establishment of a central school at Peel, does that meet with your approval as the best mode of providing secondary education for the district ? Witness : I would limit it to Peel, rather thiiLi to the whole district. 1311. — The Chairman : Do you really think St. John's would be the best place for the school? Witness : Yes, for a school for the whole district. In a short time we hope to have new schools there, and the present one would be exactly suitable to be used as a technical school. 1312.— The Chairman : Have vou many boys and girls at St. John's who would benefit 84 MR T. CORLETT'S EVIDENCE. by tbe instruclion in Buch subjects as we are speakint; of? ■Witness : I think so. 1313.— The Chairman : What, calling in life do ttie young men at St. John's take to? Witness : Agriculture chiefly, or as artisans. T am quite sure good continuation schools at Peel would be of (jreat advanlau'e. I lielieve the great want at Peel is a naviijation school. 1314.— Mr JouGHiN : I'hat is felt in your distiiet also ? Witness : Yes. 1315.— The Chairman .- Caj you form any idea of the probable number that might attend a central school in Pee). To begin with, what number do you say might be expected from St. John's? Witness : I should siiy 15 or 20, if there was a good central school at Peel. 1316 —The Chairman : Do you think the kno>' ledge that scholarships to the central school would be given to the more brilliant scholars of the eleraentaiy schools, would have a. beneficial effect in your neighbourhood. Witness : I think it wo'xld bea greatstimulus. 131T. — Mr JouGHiN : Scholarships for poorer boys? Witness : I should limit it to poorer boys. 1318. — The C3AIRMAN : You have lived many yearsjat St. John's '? Witness : Yes. 1319. — The Chairman : Have jou known cases of scholars of exceptional ability who have not been able to do what they would have otherwise bepn able to do if there had been scholarships available for them? Witness : Certainly I have. 1320.— I'he Chairman : Then you think scholarships for a central Higher Grade School would he a great boon to the district? Witness : I think they would. 1321 — Mr Drinkwater: Would you .suggest anything for tiie teaching of agriculture? Witness : The existing schools at St. John's will shortly become vacan":. and they might lie utilised for technical education. I would not connect such teaching with the elementary schools at all. I think St. John's would be a suitable centre for the whole of the district It is easy of access to the whole ^)f the sheading. 1322 — The Chairman : Would evening con- tinuation schools be a good mode of im- parting secondary education in tbe district ? Witness; Th"y would be a good thing for St. John's; but I m ty say we have tried even" ing continuation school.^ a good many times' and they have invariably gradually fallen off. The Chairman : Do you refer to evening continuation schools in the nature of private venture schools ? Witness : No, in connection with the ele- mentary school, 'i'he result might be different if it was made compulsory on those under a certain age. 1323— Mr Moore : Do you not think that any legislation, to give effect to such a proposal, would be met with ihe objection that there is a great need for labour ? Witness : No doubt it would. No doubt there is great difficulty in the way of carrying out such a proposal. 1324. —The Chairman : If there was a navi- gation class, would that render a permanent increase of the teaching staff necessary, or could it be taken by peripatetic teachers? Witness : I should say by the peripatetic teachers. EVIDENCE OF MR T. CORLETT. Mr T. Corlett, member of the School Com- mittee of St. John's, was the nejt witn< SB. 1325. — I'he Chairman; Do you ci>ncur in the opinion that the establishment of a cen'ral school at Peel would be the best methol of promoting higher education in this district ? Witness : I think so. 1326.— The Chairman : Y.m think Peel, on the whole, the best centre? Witness : I think so. 1327 — The Chairman : Do you say it would be the best having regard to P-el only, as the preceding witness said, or havirt^ regard to the whole district ? Witness : Having regard to Peel only. 1328. The Chairman : Well, I think it is pretty obvious that it would be t'le b 'st thing or Peel, but would it also, in your view, meet the wants of the neighbourhood ? Witness ; I think it would. 1329. — I'he Chairman : Id your opinion is such a school much needed in this district, and would it be considered a boon hy the people? Witness : I think it is very much needed. 1330. — I'he Chairman : Do you agree in the opinion I hat the enoowineutof the old Grammar School should be appropriated to the support of such a school ? Witness : I think it would be a good thing. In fact there is a small endoninnnt for St. John's that might be utilised for such a purpose. The Chairman; You had. better keep tiiat for a scholarship for St. John's. It does not do to be too liberal. (Laughter.) 1331. — Mr JonOHlN : If a good school is established at Peel, do you think the children from St. John's will cone over? Witness : Not so many. 1332. — The Chairman ; Do you agree with the preceding witness that there will he fifteen or twenty ? Witness: About that, or a little less. A great number of people in the country in German are tenant farmers, and can't afford to send their children to Peel. In former years the majority of the farmers were the owners of the land and could afford to send their children to P^el or elsewhere. 1333. — Mr Drinkwater : Do you think a central school will be of any benefit to agriculturists ? Witness: I think so. 1334. — Mr Drinkwater ; Do you think they will send their children to it? Witness ; Yes, those who can afford it. 1335. — Mr Joughin : You think it would be a great advantat;e to parents if they could send their children to such a school, for say about 9J or Is a week ? Witness: I think it would be a great advantage. CAPTAIN KITTO'S EVIDENCE. CAPTAIN KITTO'S EVIDENCE. Captain W. Kitto, manager of Poidale Mines, was the neit witness. 1386. — I be Chairman : I tbink you bave very considerable knowledge of tbe require- ments of Foidale, from tbe number of years you have lived there? Would you say there is any large number of children to whom secondary education would be a boon ? Witness : Of course it would be a boon ; but tbe large majority, I am afraid, at present, would fail to take advantage of it. 1337.— The Chairman : They don't at present realise the advantage. But, now, if we have regard to instruction in mining, do you think they would realise the advantage of that ? Witness; If they wero taught younger, in the elementary schools, they might ; but, after once leaving school, the young men in our district do not generally pay much attention to it. 1338. —The Ch.mekan : Is there any means for instructing tbem in minirg beyond the actual mining operations, when they go to work ? Witness : No. 1339. — Tbe Chairman: Would not instruc- tion in geology be a valuable thing ? Witness : Certainly, it would be a great advantage to them for their success in life. 1840. — The Chairman: And none, at preseut, is given in the elementary schools? Witness : Very little, I ara afraid. 1341.— The Chairman : Do you think, if sucli a school as we have been speaking of, and which the Peel witnesses agree in recom- mending, were established in Peel, that a fair number from Ft xdale would avail themselves of such an opportunity ? Witness: I am afraid it is rather too far for them to go into Peel. 1342. — The Chairman: What would be the cost of a return ticket? Witness: Tuey could only take a return ticket from St. John's ; they would have to walk up and down. The trains do not suit. I am ufraid not many of them would go from Fosdale to Peel. Those who can afford to send their children to the Higher Grade Scliool in Douglas do so now. 1343.— The Chairman : Do some go now from Fuxdale to Douglas ? Witness: Yes; I think BO. 1344.— The Chairman : Surely Peel would be considerably nearer ? Witness : Of course it would be nearer and cheaper; but they would scarcely take into account the extra expense. 1345.— The Chairman : Would any (At number of girls care to avail themselves of the instruction in such branches of information as concern women ! Witness : I could not speak about the number. Of course it would be a great advantage if they did take such instruction, but I am afraid the inducement would have to be a little nearer. 1346.— The Chairman : Is there any w ly better than a central school at Peel that you could mention for the instruction of the Foxdale boys and girls? Witness : 1 agree with what Mr Corlett, of St. John's, has said about a technical school at St, John's. It would certainly be belter for Foxdale. But not being selfish, and looking at the whole district, including Peel, Peel is ceitainly the best place for it. 1347. — Mr Moore: I think you used the word " technical," in speaking of the school at St. John's? You draw rather a distinction between the school there and at Patrick ? Witness : Yes, I would. I think for the welfnre of the young men at Foidale, they ought to be taught geology, mineralogy, mine surveying, and mathematics — which would all come in useful in after life. Many of our young men go away, who have not had the advantages of being educated up to therequire- mpRts of their profession. 1348. —The Chairman: In your many years' experience at Foxdale, have you known boys who might have mad© a much better po-ition for themselves in life, if they had had opportunities for secondary education ? Witn>»ss : Certainly, they have been lost for want of education. 1840. — Mr Drinkwater : If the education had been available would they have taken advantage of it? Witness: The brighter boys would. Those that were anxious to succeed would certainly have taken advantage of it. They have had to sink because there was no such system. 1350. -Mr MooEE : I suppose in South Africa tnere have been great opportunities? Witness : They have felt the want of it there. 1351. — Mr Drinkwater: I believe you have at Fixdile a buildini? that would be available? Witness : No, I think not. Mr Drinkwater : You have a reading-room ? Witness : We could utilise that. Mr DiilNKWATER : Would that be inconve- nient to the men? Wiiness : Not at all. It would be of some use to 'hem. 1352. — ^Ir Drinkwater; What class of instruction would you gi'e? Witness: 1 advocate something practical for boys, after they bave left school, while they are working on the washing floors and under- ground. Of course, some of the older young men would take the opportunity of improving themselves. I would advise popular lectures on the subjects, showing geological lantern slides. 1358.— The Chairman : That practically means p' ripatetic teachers. Witness: I do not think the parents of childien could send them to a Hitcher Grade Sc:!h.oI so far distant as Peel. 1354.— ^Ir Dbinkwateb : You speak of a g eai many of yiur yuuug people going away. Supposing they do go away is a mere know- ledge of mining, supplemented by learning what you have suggested, as good as a general education in diverse matters— rrhat you call a thorough education? Witness: Of course, some of our young men, with their knowledge of mining, if taught surveying, geology, &c.. could, with a good 86 ME J. Q. CANNELL'S AND MR W. H. CORLETT'S EVIDENCE. general education, qualify themselTes to take any posifion in mining;. 1355. — Mr Drinkwater: You have grave doubts whether the children would avail themselves of these lectures, if they were established? Witness : I believe it would create a desire. They do not seem to express much wish at present, but I think the dfsire would grow upon them to avail themselves of those opportunities. 1856. — Mr JoDGHiN : Do you think any of the boys you were speaking of would go to the Higher Grade School if they had scholarships? Witness : They might go for a short time. I do not think they would go for long. It would only bean inducement to a few. Parents want to get their boys to work as soon as possible. If you provide something for them after work hours, it would be the best principle. 1357, — Mr Ktmer: Do you think that boys leaving the elementary school are sufficiently advanced to take advantage of classes of that description ? Witness : I think for our district they would. If they had passed the seventh standard, I think lads could qualify themselves. Mr Etmer: The general complaint in England is just the opposite — that they have not the necessary foundation. Wituese : Of course I am only speaking as to mining. MR J. Q. CANNELL'S EVIDENCE. 1358. — The Chairman : The next witness is Mr Ciinnell, of Ballacarnane, in the parish of Michael. Now, Mr Cannell, will you tell the Commissioners what you think with regard to the desirability of a central school at Peel? Witness: I think if a Higher Grade School is built it ought to be built at Peel. I do not think there is any hardship, if parents wish to send their children. When I came myself to school, I walked in, five miles, every day for five years. Mr Sayle, the postmaster, too, came year after year out of the village. Several travelled backwards and forwards from Cronk-y-Voddy, and from Knock^barry. 1359. — The Chairman : Prom your know- ledge of .\Iichiel and nei;;hboHrhood, do you think it would be regarded as a boon if facili- ties were given? Witness : It would be a boon only to a few. I don't think many would avail themselves of it. 1360.— The Chairman: Which would be the bet er mode of meeting the wan's of the children? Do you thiuk it would be better done byeiforls made in the elementary schools, or by scholarships to a central institution ? Witness : I think it would be better to have scholnrships to n central school at Peel. They would be taught better than by efforts in board schoolf. 1361.— The CHAiliMAN : Open to the scholars in the elementary schools who were able to win them ? Witness : Yes, I certainly would do that. I think the needs of the district would be better met that way than the other. 1362. — The Chairman : We cannot expect every one to be brilliant. Do you think the great bulk of the children ought to have further instruction given to them in the ele- mentary schools ? For example, would it be desirable to have the elementary curriculum include cookery, laundry, and dairy work ? Witness; I think they should be taught laundry and cookery work. As to the dairy work, I think if these classes went round once a year they would do a vast deal of good. I consider that what has already been done in that direction has done good, and that it would do more good in the future. Prejudice is being gradually swept away. The Chairman : It takes a long time. Witness : Well, time works wonders. Mr Drinkwater : Yuu think the farming interest would be helped by similar dairy instruction to that which was given ? Witness: Yes, I think the classes would be far better attended as time went on. 1363. — Mr Drinkwater : Would you siy the same of laundry work and poultry keeping? Witness : Laundry work, I think, might be taught in the schools, and all the girls in the school would have the advantage of it. MR. W. H. CORLETT'S EVIDENCE. Mr W. H. Corlett, of Bishop's Court, was the next witness. 1364. — I'he Chairman : I think, actually, you reside at Ballaugh; but are eqviallv quali- fi-d to speak for Michael and Ballaugh .' Witness : Well, I do not know so much about Michael, 1365. — The Chairman : I will ask you generally, do you think the wants of our part of district — if I may so describe it — would be met sufficiently by a central school at Peel, with scholarsliips to it. Witness : Well, in my way of thinking, I do not think it would be tolerated by the people in ur district. 1366.— The Chairman : Well, it could not hurt them. Witness: No, of course not; but I think their wi.n's would be better suited by having an efficient staff of teachers in the existing elementary schools. 1367. — The Chairman; Do you mean p ripaletic teachers who would visit the parishes from time to time, and give instruc- tions in the elementary schools? Witness : Yes — in some subjects, such as dairying, agriculture, cookery, and laundry work. 1368. — ^The Chairman : That is chiefly for girls. With regard to boys — in your know- ledge of schools in our neighbourhood, have you known brilliant scholars who have not been able from want of teaching to attain better positions? Those boys surely would require scholarships ? REMARKS BY THE CHAIRMAN. 87 Witness : Yes, I thint it would be wortli their while. 1369.— The Chairman: The interest of the parishes in the central school, would be appreciated ? Witness : It would — a little. Very few would avail themselves of the advantage. 1370. — The Chairjian : I suppose you would consider it a haidship, either to erect or maintain a parochial secondary school ? Witness : Yes. Those who could afford to pay would send their children, but many children could not go. Of course the scholar- ships might meet their case. 1371. — Mr Moore : Did I understand you to say that in addition to classes for cookery and dairying, you think the staff in the elemen- tary schools wants improving ? Witness: fes ; to teach the already eiisuDg education more fully, especially in standards 6 and 7 — the teachers are not capable of dealing with those standards. 1372. — The Chairman: People would have to pay a good deal for that ? Mr MoOee : It would be rather an expensive way of dealing with the question. Witness : I do not think it would be very expensive. They would almost earn their own wages. 1373. — Mr DrINkvtater : Do you mean the stHff should teach extra subjects, such as dairying, or that there should be peripatetic teachers ? Witness: For cookery snd dairying I should say peripatetic teachers. I think the staff should be able to take most other subjects. 1374. — Mr Deinkwater : I suppose the people would object to any additioHal school rate for any purpose ? Witness : Considering thf few who might go to Peel, they would think it hard to be rated to support a central school at Peel. 1375.— Mr JouGHiN : If you were not rated to support the school at Peel, do you think it would be popular ? Witness : I think very few would avail themselves of it. 1376. — Mr JouoHiN' : Would it not be less expense to you to send children lo Peel rather than to get peripatetic teachers to teach the children in your own schools? Witness : For one or two schools I would not advocate peripatetic teachers; but it would be, I understand, a general scheme for town and country. 1377. — Mr Moore : Would it be more con. venient for people in your parish to go to Ramsey instead of Peel ? Witness : Yes, it would. 1378. — Mr Deinkwatek : Do you think the dairy classes have done good ? Witness : They have, undoubtedly. Dairy- ing and cookery are the principal things that want teaching in the country districts. 1379. — Mr Moo RE: It was given in evidence by Mr Potts that many of the small farmers could not take advantage of the instruction in dairying, because thi.y could not ;ifford to get the necessary apparatus. Do you agree with that ■'. Witness : No ; the necessary apparatus for the new mode of dairying is very inexpensive. Anyone who keeps a cow or two could afford to get what is required. 1380.— Mr Deinkwater: It would pay in a very short time ? Witness : Yes. 1381 —Mr MooRB : Is it a fact that labour is scarce in your district, and that there is a great demand for children's labour at certain seasons ? Witness : Yes, there is. 1382.— Mr MooBE: That would stand in the way of children going to school to any advanced age ? Witness : Of course the people have not the means that they formerly had. REMARKS BY THE CHAIRMAN, rhe Chairman : I have now concluded the list of witnesses, and I think I had better say, as 1 have said at the other places where the Commission has sat, that if anybody present belonging to Peel or the neighbourhood is desirous of stating anything to the Commis- sioners, the Commissioners will be very glad to hear it. (Pause). If no one cares to come forward I should like to say, before closing the meeting— and I believe I am speaking tor my brother Commissioners as well — that we have been very much gratified at the manner in which the evidence has been given here. In my judgment you have con- sidered more fully this ouestion of secondary education, and have formulated your views far more distinctly, than any place which we have yet visited during our inquiry. The almost unanimous voice of Peel — nncontroverted as it is by the country, and in some cases supported by the country — will have considerable weight in determining the recommendations at which the Commissioners may arrive. Mr JouGHiN also expressed himself pleased with the manner in which his townsmen had come forward to give their evidence. The Chairman : I should like to add that the Commissioners, in going from town to town, must not be supposed to go about to promote any particular system. We are simply directed by the Commission of the Ute Lieut. Governor to inquire into the matter in all those respects which I indicated in my opening remarks to-day. I hope the people in Peel will not suppose that we have come here to-day as faddists to push particular views which we have at heart, contrary to the feelings of the people. We have come to inquire what are the views of the people, and how far the parents desire that their children should share in the education which it certainly being given throughout the British Islands at the present time. We have done ihe best we could do to ascertain what is the feeling of the people on these subjects, and what we have gathered will guide us greatly sn the conclusions to which we may come. The Commission then adjourned. FIFTH DAY.— Douglas, Tuesday, Notember 7th, 1896. The Commission appointed by the Lieut. - Governor to inquire as to the need for increased facilities for highland technical education in the Island, and the best means for providing it, held a further sitting to-'lay. The Lord Bishop (Chairman of the Commission) pre- sided, and there were also present Mr G. Drinkwater, J.P., the Rev. F. B. Walters, M.A., Mr J. W. Kymer, B.A., Mr A. W. Moore, H K., Mr J. Joughin, H.K., and the Secretary (Mr R. Garside). Mr A. Barthelemy. the head-master of the Douglas Grammar School, was the only witness examined at this sitting. 1383 — The Chairuan (to witness) : In pursuance of a resolution which the Commis- sioners passed at their last meeting, and of which you have been informed, you are here this morning to give evidence in regard to the Douglas Grammar School ? Witness : Yes. 1384. — The Chairman : Is the position of this school legalized, or is it not Witness : I think it is not legalized. I have beard that it is not. 1385. — The Chairman: Are you aware that a sum of ^£500. under the St. MatthewN Church Act, comes to the school on condition of its position being legalized ? 1386. -Mr A. W. Moore : After the death of the present Vicar ? 1387.— The Chairman: After the next vacancy. (To witness): Are you aware of this matter ? Witness: I have been advised that it will not be available for the Grammar School as it stands. 1388. — The Chairman : How many scholars have you in the Grammar School ? Witness : 41. The Chairman : Has the number risen ? Witness: From 26. TheCaAiBMAX: Lately? Witness : When I took the school there were 26, two being the sons of the head master whom 1 succeeded. The number has since risen from 26 to 41 . 1389 — Mr Drinkwater : How long have you been the head master ? AVitness : Since Mny, 1895. 1390. - The Chairman : What is the total number of scholars that could receive instruc- tion in the school? Witness : I had a measurement of the rooms taken yesterday, and I f und that the school- room measured 42 by 20 feet 1391.— The Chairman : How many children will it accommodate ? Witness : I do not know what the regu- lations are in regard to space. 1392.— The Secretary (Mr Garside) : What floor space have you ? Witness: 42 by 20 feet. The Secretary : That is accommodation for 84 scholars. Witness : Since 1 have been acquainted with the school, there have been 87 present at one time. 1393. — The Chairman : You say you have only half the number of scholars the school will accommodate ? Witness ; There are, beside the main sch* ol- room, two class rooms, one being 21 feet by 19. The Secretary : That will accommodate 40 scholars. Witness : The other is 20 feet by 15. The Secretary : That will accommodate 30. 1394<< — The Chairman : Then you say that at present there are 41 scholars, that the main school can accommodate double that number, and that you have two class rooms, one of which will accommodate 40 and the other 30? Witness : Yes. 1395. — The Chairman: Do you regard the school a3 a private venture ? Witness: I must do so now. I was under the impression that it was a legalized grammar school. 1396.— The Chairman : Let us revert to what you stated at the beginning of your evidence. You are aiivised that its position is not legalized. Witness: I am advised it is not a legalized grammar school. 1397. — The Chairman : Is there not a clause in Mrs Hall's will whereby the property might be alienated in case of certain conditions not being fulfilled ? Witness : I am not fully acqu vinted with the conditions, but I am under the impression that the property might be alienated. 1398.— The Chairman: Then you are in this difficulty with regard to the grammar school, that, if certain conditions are not ful- filled, the property may be alienated so far as it ia affected by Mrs Hall's will ? Witness : Only a certain amount of endow- ment, not the school building. I'he Chairman : Not the head master's house? Witness : No, only the sum of ^6500. 1399.— The Chairman: There is ^500 in prospect under St. Matthew's Act, which will not come to you unless the school is legalized. Witness : 1 am advised that is so. The Secretary, at the request of 'he Chair- man, here read the following extracts from Mrs Francis Amelia Hall's will: — I leave, devise, and bequeath unto the Vicar- General of this Island, the High-bailiff of Douglas, and the incumbent of St. Thomas' Ctiurch, in the same town, and to their several successorn in the said offices, and their assignee.'^, all and singular, that and those premisen, dwelling-house, s«-hool and large playground, called the Douglas Grnmmar School, riituate in Dalton-street. in the said town of Douglas. To have and to hold the same and every part thereof to them and their succesnors and assignees for ever, hereafter as and for a Grammar School for the said town. And also the sum of £500. which sum is to be invested on good security or in £0 MR A, BARTHELEMY'S EVIDENCE. the purchase of real property, and the interest and annual income thereof to be paid over yearly to the principal of the said school, giving to the said trustees the sole management of the said school, and the appointment of the principal, and making such regulations as rhey may consider best in reference thereto. Provided always that the doctrines of the Church of England be and form part of the instruction given in the said Kchool. Failing these conditions, the said sum of £500 is to revert to my estate and form part of my residuary estate. Provided further that if, owing to the rapid growth of the said town. a moredesirable site could be found for the said school, the said trustees are hereby authorised to sell the said premises and erect suitable premises with the sale of present premises for a grammar school for the said town. 1400. — The Chairman : Well, you say you have 41 scholars at the present time. Can you give the Coujuiissioners, just briefly, some idea of the currieulum through which you take them? To begin with, you give mathematical instruction? Witness : Yes. The Chairman: And classical? Witness' Y^s. We have one master for each subject — a classical master, a mathe- matical master, and an assistant mathematical master. 1401.— The Chairman: Do you teach any- thing in the way of technical education? Witness: We have no apparatus for that; we taught chemistry some years ago. 1402. — The Chairman : Do boys go from this Grammar School to the universities ? Witness : No, the best boys we have gene- rally pass on to King William's College. 1403. — The Chairman : Then we may regard it as a stepping stone to King William's College ? Witness : Yes. 1404. — The Chairman : Are there any scholarships to assist the more brilliant scholars to pass from the Grammar School to King William's College? Witness: Not scholarships at the Grammar School, but scholarships at King William's College are given to successful scholars of the Grammar School. 1405. — The Chairman : In other words, the ladder is let down from King William's College to the Grammar School? Witness: That is so. 1406. — The Chairman : What are your fees ? Witness : They were two guineas per quarter exclusive of books, but as this arrangement seemed to give annoyance to parents, I made the fee inclusive. Rev. P. B. Walters: Your fees are about eight guineas a year ? Witness : The charge is rather more. The stationery comes to about lOs. 1407. — The Chairman : You have told us that, within the past eighteen months, the number of scholars has risen from 26 to 41 — lot king back, what is the highest number of scholars you remember to have been in attend- ance at the school ? Witness ; 88. Mr Drinkwateb : When was that ? Witness : In 1885-87. Of course much before that I could not say, as I joined the school in 1881. 1408.— Mr Moore : Has not the establish- ment of a Higher Gnde School adversely affected the Grammar School ? Witness : No. Only two boys left to go to the Higher Grade School. The Chairman : Since the Higher Grade School has been opeB, you have increased your scholars? Witness : They have increased rapidly. We bad eight new boys last term. 1409- — Mr Joughin : Can you assign any reason for the school falling off in numbers since there was the large attendance you have mentioned ? Witness : No, 1 cannot. 1410. — The Chairman : You mean you cannot say whether it was the result of teach- irg higher subjects in elementary schools, or of the establishment of a Hit(b(r Grade School. It could hardly be from the establish- meLt of a Higher Grade School, because you have increased your scholars so recently. Witness: I ihink that is because the town has increased so rapidly. The CHAihMiN : Is that so? Is the town increasing so rapidly? I do not think the statistics shew that. Witness: I have seen Buck's-road built since I came to Douglas, and a great portion of the upper part of the town. 1411. — Mr Moore : With regard to instruc- tion in technical subjects, I think you men- tioned that chemistry was taught at one time. Was it discontinued from want of funds, or because you had not the teachers? Witness: No; the same teachers continued in the school. We had not the apparatus. We spent a lot of money, and the boys did not seem to require teaching in this subject. 1412. — Mr Drinkwater : If there was any demand for teaching chemistry and other similar subjects, you would have no difficulty in providing it ? Witness: No. Mr MooBE : But you had a difficulty in providing apparatus for teaching chemistry. Witness : Yes, that was because it was out of our own pockt ts. Eev. F. B. Walpees : As far as King William's College is concerned, I do not care for the candidates for the College dabbling in chemistry. Mr Drinkwater : But we have an expensive Higher Grale School, and it is a question whether this school is wanted for the teaching of these subjects 1413 — The Chairman: What I want to elicit is whether yuu have ample room tor more scholars to c^me to you for a classical and mathematical education? Witness : Yes, there is ample accommoda- tion. 1414. — Mr Drinkwater: It is merely a maitcr of fees and demand, what education you give them ? If a number of pupils wanted to be taught chemistry, the cost in the Way of appara'us would be less? Witness : Yes. 1415. — The Chairman : But we have an instit ution in Douglas with the apparatus. MR A. BARTHELEMT'S EVIDENCE. 91 If yoa want technical education, demanding expensive apparatus, you have the Higher Grade School, but for classical and mathe- matical instruction you are prepared to receive a large number of pupils ? Witness : Yes. 1416. — The Chairman : Do you make appli- cation to have the position of your school as a Grammar School legalised? Witness : If it is in the power of the Com- mission. The Chairman : It is not in our power to legalise it, but it is in our power to recom- mend to the Tynwald Court that it should be legalised. Witness : I should certainly be glad if the Commission would make such a recommenda- tion. It seems essential, in respect to Mrs Hall's bequest, that the school should be legalised, and because otherwise we should lose an endowment which would enable ns to provide scholarships. 1417. — The Chairman : You mean you would lose the prospective endowment under the St. Matthew's Church Act? Witness : Yes. The Chairman: Tt at, to my mind, is a most cogent argument. Mr Dbinkwater : It is the most cogent. 1418.— The Chairman : To sum up. Ton have come before us to-day representing that the Douglas Grammar School, so called, has a building capable of accommodating more than double the number now attending; that it is in a highly sanitary condition ; that you are prepared to give a classical and mathematical education ; and that you may receive .£500 as an endowment, if its position as a Grammar School ib legalised ? Withess : Yes. I think eighty or ninety is about the number that could be taken) to work the school as it should be worked. 1419.— Rev. F. B. Walters : Do you think, if your fees were materially reduced, it would largely increase the number of the scholars ? Witness: I do not think it would. Rev. F. B. Walters : You do not think it a matter of fees ? Witness : I do not. 1420.— The Chairman: You are of opinion that there is a large number of parents in Douglas who prefer to pay large fees because it makes the school more select? Witness : Yes, because of the social standing. 1421.— The Chairman : Have you consider- able confidence yourself that the attendance at the school is likely to increase ? Witness : I have. The Chairman : I do not think I have any more questions to aek Mr Barthelemy. 1422. — Mr Drinkwater: Your school has given education to a number of people who have taken a high position in the town, has it not? Witness: Yes; but of course, I presume, they have gone further on, but the foundation of their education was laid at the Grammar School. This concluded the eitting TEACHERS" REPORTS, Reports compiled by the Teachers of the Isle of Man Elementary Schools. Castletown, March 23rd, 1896. Dear Sir, In response to the wish of the Secondar\' Education Commission, the Insular Teachers have compiled the following report for their consideration : — At the request of Mr. Garside, the members of the I.O.M. Teachers' Association met and appointed the following- members to act as Local Secretaries : — 1. Douglas— Mr. Leece. 2. Laxey — Mr. G. Preston. 3. Kamsey— Mr. E. Fennah. 4. Peel— Mr. W. Potts. 5. Castletown — Mr. E. T. Shepherd. These Secretaries convened a meeting of all Teachers in their several districts, and the whole subject was discussed in detail. The Secretaries then met in Douglas, compared their reports, and deputed one of their number to lay the result of their deliberations before a general meeting of the Insular Teachers held February 22nd. Tiie report was approved, and the teachers of each district who had been selected to give evidence before the Conunission were requested to meet again and formulate a report, and to select from among themselves a smaller number to appear as witnesses before the Commission. At a meeting held in Peel, on February 29th, the following were appointed representa- tives : — Mr. T. P. Quayle, B.A., Douglas ;ind Laxey Districts — '• Requirements of Urban Popu- lation and Navigation.' Mr. E. Fennah — " Hamsey and the North, and Agriculture." Mr. Hudson, of Foxdale — "IMining, " Mr. Potts, Peel and the West — " Endowments and existing Grammar Schools," " Endowments and Nonconformity," " Peripatetic Teachers," and " Staffing of Schools." Miss Hodgkiuson, Port St. Mary— " Questions aft'ecting Higher Education of Girls and Ydung Women." Mr. K. T. Shepherd, L'astleto^^•n and the South — ^-Questions affecting Control, Manage- ment, and Support of Secondary Schools" ; " Demand for Higher Education." DEMAND FOR HIGHER EDUCATION. Many of the teachers have taken great pains to test the feeling of the parents on this question; but, generall}' the results of their inquiries are very indefinite, and, in the main, not very encouraging. In many of the country districts, the parents think but little even of Elementary Education, and show no desire for anything higher. In this apathy, the teachers do not see any reson for delay in pushing forward schemes for improvement in the educational advantages of those districts. All teachers testify to the difficulty of obtaining definite replies trom parents, the plea being that either they do not understand the point, or that they prefer waiting to see what was to be done. The great hesitation shown by many parents proceeded evidently from a fear lest they would have to pay high fees, and also from a fear lest the education rate should be increased. From 2s. 6d. to 10s. a term was about the fee most are prepared to pay— very few indeed going higher. 11. CONTROL OF SECONDARY EDUCATION. The teachers are very strongly of opinion that the management and control of Secondary Education should not be in the hands of local committees, but should be controlled either by the Board of Education or by a, special central committee, who would co-opt other gentlemen interested in education to assist them in the various districts. They would lay stress on this point — "gentlemen interested in education," as their experience of some of the committees of Elementary Education leads them to think that unless the manage- ment of Secondary Education is in the hands of thorough educ.itionists, any scheme of Secondary Education will be hampered and kept at a low standard by the influence of " Rates." They would respectfully urge that teachers be represented on the Central Cemmittee of Management. This has bee;; done by many of the C!ounty Councils of England which have Technical Education Committees, and teachers are appointed by their colleagues to sit on the governing body of the University of Wales. FINANCE. It is the opinion of the ten -hers that if Secondary — including Technical and Industrial — Education is to be developed and made really helpful, the expense connected therewith should be entirely met from the Insular Revenue and not from local rates, their experience being that any increase of the rates wuuld tend to the starving of education. EDUCATION DISTRICTS. The teachers suggest the Island being divided into four districts, viz : — 1. Douglas, including Laxey. 2. Peel. 3. Ramsey. 4. Castletown. DAY SCHOOLS AND HIGHER EDUCATION. The teachers agree, that under existing circumstances, few day schools could include in their time table any of the subjects to be taught under a Secondary Education scheme, because : — 1. Of the already crowded state of the Elementary School curriculum. 2. . Owing to the meagre, and altogether inadequate, staff of many of the schools ; in consequence of which many teachers have to teach several standards in one large class. Reference to some of these glaring inefficiencies in staff will be given at the end. CENTRES. Owing to the scattered state of the rural population, the distance between the schools, and the difficulties and the inconveniences of travel, it is evident that, except in and near the towns, it will be impossible to establish centi'al classes to which the older scholars could be sent for special instruction during the day time, as children are in Douglas for wood-work and cookery. COOKERY. The teachers consider this subject of such paramount importance, that they would suggest the appointment of a Cookery Mistress in each district, who would visit every school in which girls are taught, and give instruction to all girls above Standard IV. In the towns, the girls could be taught at a centre. PERIPATETIC TEACHERS. Save in the teaching of cookery, the teacliers consider it inadvisable to a])point peripatetic teachers to give instruction in the day schools. They consider, among other objections, the fact that few schools could provide a separate room in which such a teacher could work. III. EVENING CONTINUATION SCHOOLS. The teachers believe that this must be the chief means by which culture ('an be brought to bear on the great masses of the people. These should be estal)]ished in every school district, placed undei- a duly qualified superintendent, and visited by teachei's specially qualified to give instruction in technical and scientific subjects. It w;is sugge.sted that to make this movement successful some fovm of compulsion should be devised whereby young men should attend these classes at stated times (as the Naval Reserve men attend Peel for drill), until they reach the age of 17 or 18. Some such plan is in operation in Germany and Switzerland, but the teachers consider the project impracticable. They suggest instead, the trial of some plan encouraging youths to continue their studies, and by interesting employers of labour in the matter urge them to take such action in the engagement of employees as to make it to their advantage to utilize every means of self-improvement. The te;ichers suggest that Continuation Schools should be open to all day scholars who have passed Standard IV., and to all others of whatever age on payment of a small fee, which might be returned to those who show special progress in their studies, and also returned as a reward for reirular attendance. SUBJECTS SUGGESTED. Girls. — Cookery, Laundry work, House-wifery, Book-keeping, Type-writing, Short- hand, Dairy Mork (including Poultry-rearing, Butter-making, and Bee-keeping), and Floriculture. BoY.s. — Manual work fSloyd or English Carpentry), Mechanical Drawing, Cottage Gardening, Mining at Laxey and Foxdale, Agriculture and Navigation in the four towns, French, Mathematics, Shorthand, Type- writing, and Book-keeping. CENTRAL OR HIGHER GRADE SCHOOLS. The teachers would welcome the establishment of a Higher Grade School in each of the towns, but do not think that such schools need to be conducted on the lines and according to the fixed curriculum of Organized Science Schools. To make these schools as jDi'acticable as possible they suggest that no scholars be admitted until they have passed the six com- pulsory standards in the Elementary Schools, and that the expenses of tlieir education be partly met : — 1. By payment of a fee by those anxious to benefit by the existence of a Higher Grade School. 2. By the provision of several scholarships open to all the schools in the district. 3. By assisting the winners of scholarships to defray the cost of travel to and from a central school. Further — The central schools could be utilised for evening classes and as centres for grouping the day-scholars of urban districts for cookery and manual work. The teachers .suggest the formation of a good Technical School, and School of Engineer- ino- in Douirlas, to which the briirhest children of the central schools should be drafted, and from which t.he}' might obtain scholarships to take them to the University. On one point the teachers speak with some diffidence, but it is of considerable import- ance and worthv the consideration of the Commission. IV. Many teachers are paid according to the grants earned, i.e., on the number of scholars in averaee attendance at the schools. Now, if the opening of central schools draw from these schools a number of the oldest and be.st scholars, the teachers ai-e made to sufter in a double sense through no fault of their own. (I) By the decrease in numbers ; (2) By the withdrawal of their best pupils and the lessenmi,^ of their chances of passing good examination^^. The teachers do not wish to object to anything educationally sound because it may be per.scnally inconvenient, but they think that their interests should be safeguarded, and suggest that some means be adopted for the fixing of their salaries, or of safeguarding them against serious loss. The teachers feel that an}' scheme proposed for Secondary (including Technical and Industrial) Education must be but a beginning of a wider and more general scheme ; and they would iiope that it may be made possible, if not at present, at some future time when secondary education is on a firm basis in the Island, ior the brightest and most intelligent children to be assisted from the Elementary schools to tlie Higher Grade ones, on to the Universities. They would not advocate an elaborate or finished scheme at present, but an emijryo which would develope itself into an elaborate system, as they are of opinion that it will be some little time before the majority of the public will give any scheme of secondary education its decided support ; and they think that the starting of a Higher Gi-ade School in each town would probably meet the case at present. In schools where a plebiscite has been taken, they find a number of parents who are willing to give their children a higher education ; and that the greater part of these would prefer a Higher Grade School to a Grammar School — especially if there \\ere a system of scholarships from them to King William's College, and thence to the Univeisity. The following are a few of the cases where schools are most meagrely staffed. They are examples of what is well-nigh the general state of things in the Island (excepting Douglas) : — 80 in Stands, v.— VII. 85 „ IV.— VII. 60 „ III.— VII. 72 „ v.— VII. 93 „ II.— IV. 50 (and Infants) „ I.— VII. 65 „ IIL— VII. The above exampk s will show the Commission how it is teachers find the curriculum overcrowded, and are most anxious that if the Commission recommend the teaching of extra subjects in the higher classes of the elementary schools, they will in like manner recommend additional and sufficient staff. The tables giving the numbers of children taking advantage of a Secondary Education will be forwarded for the Commission's consideration on Friday next. The teachers think that the numbers are most unreliable, as it is so difficult to get an ojjinion on the point. The representatives, Miss Hodgkinson, Messrs. Fennah, Hudson, Potts, Quayle, and Shepherd, will be glad to answer any questions relating to the subject matter against their namts on page 1. The teachers will be most willing to render the Commission all the assistance they can. I am, dear sir, yours truly, EDWIN T. SHEPHERD, Hon. Sec. I.O.M. Teachers' Association. Mr. R Garside, Secretary, Commission on Secondary Education. Ptamsey ( National) . . . teacher foi Laxey ,, ... :) Rushen (Boys'") )) (Girls') Port St Mary) Boys) St. Mar k's San ton. ..V, SOUTHERN DISTRICT. (CASTLETOWN, SANTON. MALEW, ARBOllY, AND RUSHEN.) CAS'l'LETOWN. PopiilatioiK 2,1 GO (1891). There is a boys', girls', and iul'ants' school, with averages of 148, 129, and 95 respec- tively. In the Castletown schools there is no attempt at Secondary Education, chiefly on account of meagre staffing. In boys' school there is a master, certificated assistant, pupil teacher, and a candidate to 15.3 boys on roll. The parents seem to appreciate the Elementary Education given, and in a great many cases would like something higher, as is shown by the 35 favourable replies received out of 50 letters sent out. I'he letters were only sent to parents of children in standards v„, vi., and vii. There is a Grammar School, to which but few boys go, probably more than half of whom come from other districts. The scholarships to King William's College foim a great attraction to parents; but even the fees of the Granmiar School — one guinea per term — are beyond tlie majority of pai'ents, and, of course, the College is still more out of their reach. Castletown would form a good centre for a Higher Grade for- Castletown, Ballasalla, Santou, and Arbory : but there is great reason to doubt whether the Rushen children woidd attend such a school. There cannot be said to be any fixed or permanent industries in Castletown, l^eyond shopkeeping and general trading. Of the boys who recently left the Board School 4 have gone as bakers, 2 as joiners, 2 masons, 2 drapers, 2 office boys, 2 grocers. 1 sailor, 1 printer, 1 teacher, 1 farm servant, and 1 electrical engineer. Several are idle, and find some little occupation in following "golfers." There are about 100 (50 boys and 50 girls) above standard iv. in Castletown. The subjects generally desired for boys are joinery, book-keeping, mathematics, drawing, shorthand, science, typewriting, navigation, music, and agriculture (1 for). The subjects for girls are cookery, domestic economy, book-keeping, dressmaking, millinery, typeAvritIng, and shorthand. Fees— about 6d. a week; some to 10s. per term. ARBORY. There seems to be no desire for a higher education here, only two replies having been sent, and these for girls. SANTON. Something similar holds here : out of 32 inquiries, seven replies — -all girls. RUSHEN. Primarily, there would be few attend Castletown as a centre — according to replies received only two would. However there is some desire for a higher education, as there are 71 favourable replies — about one-third of the number of letters sent out. These replies are tabulated as follows : — Rushen Parochial Boys', 42 replies; Girls', 28 : out of 130. Port St. Mary Boys', 1 reply out of 40. BOYS. A goodly number of boys are engaged in the fishing season at Kinsale, and It is generally thoutiht that au Evenlne" Continuation School would be a l)oon here as elsewhere, as so many of the boys engaged In the fishing idle their time away in the winter season. This class of children could not afford a high fee. The subjects most suitable for them would be woiidwork, navigation, agrictdture, typewriting, and shorthand. GIRLS. Ports Erin and St. Mary being pre-eminently holiday resorts, a practical education In cookery, laundry-work, and housewifery would be a great advantage to the girls. The girls, like the boys, seem to stay at school late in life, comparatively, and attend well Avhen the visiting season Is over. Here, again, the Continuation Schools would be very acceptable. Fees, 4d. to 6d. weekly — few higher. EDWIN T. SHEPHERD, Representative of Castletown and the South. v;. BALLASALLA SCHOOL. There does not appear to be much desire for a Secondary Education here, except by a few parents, and they rather prefer Technical Education of some kind that would be of assistance to the future work of the children. Workinc^ in wood and iron, agriculture for boys, cooking and laundiy work for girls, are regarded as desirable subjects, and could be taken up by peripatetic teachers, or even by the school staff (plus of course an additional assistant). I should think about six per cent., or about 10 to 12 scholars would take advantage of such teaching (with of course an increase as time went on), with fees from 4d. to 9d. Our schools would require an additional class-room and more space for jilayground. Another assistant teacher would of course be necessary', in order to take up the work of such classes. J. C. QUALTROUGH, Head Master. Vll. WESTERN DISTRICT. PEEL, PATHICK, GERMAN. MICHAEL. The foll.iwing conclusions and opinions liave been collated, after most careful inquiry made in every school in the district, and after conversation with many ])eople whose ])osition. attainments, or practical experience render tlieir opinions of value : — L What desire is tliere for Secondary Education higher than what is given in Elementary schools l All with wlioni we have conferred agree that there has hitherto been no demand, and little, if any, expressed desire, for anything higher than the scholars now receive. There is, however, no objection now evident to education, though we frequently hear of cases where pai'ents tliink that, having passed, say Standard v. or vi., their children have received enough learning, and must now go to work, as " they do not want to make crentleuien of them." Most of the schools took a plebiscite on this question, but little information of any definiteness or value was obtained. Parents did not understand what it meant, or they would wait to see what was provided, or they would fall in with what others did, or they would like to know what it would cost, or in the majority of cases they were content with things as they were at present. The teachers feel that the parents and guardians of the young require educating on this subject, and suggest that means be taken, through the medium of the Press and the platfnrm, to cultivate a healthy public opinion, (l) Bj pointing out what has been and is being done in England and in foreign countries for the higher education of the young. (2) By showing the practical importance of every youth being taught some branch of technical knowledge in view of the fact that a very lai-ge proportion will emigrate to the Colonies, where success depends in so large a measure on what is generally termed " handiness." We are further agreed that the lack of interest in advanced education is due in a large measure to our insularity, and that such apathy should not be made a bar to the speedy introduction of some well considered scheme of Secondary and 'I'echnical Education. So far, as we can judge, the following numbers indicate roughly the number of parents who could afford to give their children the advantage of an extra year or two at school, and pav, in addition, a small fee : — Peel Clothworkers' School 45 ,, Wesleyan School 15 ,, Roman Catholic Scliool Kirk Michael School 12 Cronk-y-Voddy 3 Total 99 St. John's 6 Foxdale 6 Patrick 12 Dalby In the Clothworkers' Boys' School 30 boys out of 120, who brought answers to the queries sent out, were anxious to receive a higher education, but this number was much lowered in the Girls' School. In the schools the number of scholars in Standards v., vi., vii., and Ex-vii. are — Peel Clothworkers', Boys 70 Girls 70 ,, Roman Catholic, Mixed 3 ,, Wesleyan, Mixed.. .. 37 Kirk Michael, Mixed 24 Dalby, Mixed 10 Cronk-v-Voddy, Mixed 20 St. John's, Mixed 45 Foxdale, Boys 24 „ Girls 38 Patrick, Mixed 20 II. What desire is there for Technical Education ? The same remarks will apply to this as to No. I. Fuither comment will be made in discussing No. V., dealing with Evening Continuation Schools. Vlll III. What kind of Technical Education wonld suit boys and girls ? We consider that every girl above Standai'd iv. in the elementary schools should receive practical iustniction in Cookery ; and that provision should be made for a wood-work centre in Peel, t'> which every boy who has passed Standaid vi. (or v.) would be drafted for at least two hours instruction every Aveek. Boys. — Navigation in Peel, Geology and Mining in Foxdale, Agriculture in all tlie country centres, Book-keeping and Shorthand, Building Construction, and Mechanical Drawing. Girls. — In the country, Dairy-work (Including Butter and Cheese making), Poultry Eearino-, Bee-keeping and Floriculture, scientific Dress-making and cutting-out, the use of the Sewing Machine. Cottage Gardening in the country woukl be a very practical suV)ject, the chief difficulty being the jack of time to teach it in connection with the day schools, especially where the master works almost single-handed. IV. What would be the best practical means for such education to be bestowed ? In scarcely any school, as at present constructed and staffed, would it be possible, without serious injury to discipline and good progress in the ordinary subjects of instruction, to carry on mucli, if any, technical work. In few schools is it possible to teach systemati- cally anv specific subjects ; and work of this kind, if done at all, must perforce be lett to the few children themselves who are kept at school after having passed through the standards. In one school (Cloth workers' Boy's), all the boy's above Standard IV. are taught Algebra and Mensuration ; and some few scholars are kept long enough at school to enable them to go through all three stages. The teachers suggest that three means be adopted to compass the work of Technical Education : — (a) Peripatetic Teachers. (b) Evening Continuation Schools. (c) Central School or Schools, either at St. Jolui's or Peel, or both places. (a) Peripatetic Teachers. — Under existing conditions these teachers could not be of much use in day schools for teaching extra subjects, partly because of the already over- crowded time-table, and partly because some of the schools have not accoaunodation for the teaching of a technical subject in separate rooms away ftom the view and hearing of the other classes. Such acconnnodation is lacking in Peel National Girls' School, Peel Wesleyan, Peel Roman Catholic, Cronk-y-Voddy, and St. John's. Peripatetic teacliers will l)e necessary in the case of Evening Continuation Schools and Centres. We beg to suggest that these teachers be specialists in their several subjects, and tbat they l)e men and women of approved ability in the art of teaching and discipline. (6) Evening Continuation Schools. — This system seems to be the means by which Technical Education will reach the masses* of the people, at least in the country districts ; and very great care will be required in the equipment and organisation of such schools, if the experiment is to be attended with success. We suggest that this district be counted a unit, and that a superintendent be appointed to organise and keep going the difterent classes in all the Continuation Schools in the district. If this cannot be done, it seems to us that a resj^onsible teacher, working with a local Committee, must l:)e placed over each s.-hool, whose duty it will be to see the rooms ready for the itinerant teachers, the registers properly kept, the people of the district kept alive to the provision made ready for them, and generally to supervise ever3'thing connected with the practical working of the scheme. Such superintendent may, of course, be qualified to teach one or more subjects himself. In England, under the Technical Education Connnittee's of the County Councils, inspectors are appointed to visit all the centres during the evening, and report on the character of the teaching, the nature of the apparatus, &c. These gentlemen neither teach nor examine, unless specially requested. On their reports grants are awarded. IX. Tlie Continuation Schools ought to be equipped with all necessary diaarrams, specimens, and apparatus. For example— Peel. — Navigation — model of fully-riggedships, compass, sextant, &c. ; mnoic lantern and .slides; diagrams and specimens to illustrate commercial geograpliy. Science — microscope. FoxDALE. — Mining. Well-equipped technical library dealing mainly witli geology, mineralogy, and practical mining. Also museum containing rock and other specimens, with micro.scope and lantern slides for examining sections. Kirk Michael, &c. — Models or diagrams of latest improved agricultural implements; specimens of bee-hives. Library — Works on agriculture, gardening, bee-keeping, poultry reariiif;", butter inakino- &c. We suggest that the evening continuation schools be opened to scholars in the day schools who have passed Standard vi., as well Jis to tho.se who are in employment. (c) Central School or Schools. — This means may be worked in two ways. Either by building one large technical .school in Peel or St. John's, having a complete staff of its own, or bv using the exi.sting buildings after they have been sltered and in a measure extended. If one central .school be built, the question of a site will have to be considered. Some teachers consider that St. John's will be more available than Peel. Kirk Michael and Foxdale are in closer comnuuiication with St. John's than with Peel, while Peel will suit Patrick, Dalby, and Cronk-y-Voddy children lietter. So far as railway facilities go, St. John's is certainl}^ the more convenient. Peel has some 900 children on school books, more than the remaining parts of the district put together. Again, Peel has endowments connected with its Mathematical School ; it possesses in that school a, building available for some purposes, and the site has been purchased for the erection of a new grammar school. Now, if existing ar.d prospective buildings be used, there will be at St. John's a new school, part of whTch might be equipped and utilised tor technical instruction during the day by peripatetic teachers, and at night by the staff of the Evening Continuation School. At St. John's tliere is a Wesleyan hall available for technical purposes, i'he school at Kirk Michael can accommodate one class on special occasions, and, besides, the old school is available. In Peel, the old Mathematical School could easily be fitted out as a cookery and wood- work centre, open to the upper scholai-s of all the schools in the town. Provision might also be made in Peel by mixing the boys' and girls' departments, using the present girls' school as a junior school, and the boys as a senior department. By the addition of a wing of two storeys, and slight structural alterations, this building could be made very applicable for many purposes connected with technical instruction. There would be an attendance of about 140 children in the upper classes, winch provides a good working base. There is plenty of gi-ound available for extension. The Cloth- workers' Company are great patrons of technical education, and some few years ago oflered a large sum for the erection of a teclmical school (the plans of which were dr-awn), but the offer did not meet with a very hearty response, and the scheme fell through. VII. What addition to the present staff and premi.ses would be required? We consider that, except in the largest and best staffed schools, no extia work could be undertaken. If technical subjects have to be taught by the day school staff during the ordinary hours, then in each of the smaller schools an assistant (Ex. P.T.), and in the larcrer a certificated assistant, at least, will be required. For buildings, the following enlargements wilU be required: — Peel National Boys — Small room enlarged by including a large store-room, and part of a passage. Peel National Girls — Large new class-room. Peel Wesleyan Mixed — New class-room. Foxdale Boys — New room. Also, St. John's, Cronk-y-Voddy, Dulby, and Patrick will each require a new room. X, VIII. What fee would people pay ? No definite answer can be given so long as questions I. and II. evoke sucli indefinite and hesitating i-eplies. It is evident, however, that the fees must be small. In the Peel schools the fee most commonly mentioned was 2s. 6d. a quarter, though several expressed their willingness to pay to 10s. a, quarter. EVIDENCE FOR FORMATION OF EVENING CONTINUATION SCHOOLS. In no part of the district has there been any demand lately, and indeed very little manifest interest, and so we have tried to deduce from indirect sources the feeling on this question, and the probability of this movement succeeding. It will always be difficult to maintain Interest in systematic evening work on account of — (1) The late hours of labour. (2) The fatiguing nature of much of that work. (3) The distance of some of the farmsteads to available centres. (4) The conservatism of views and methods among old employers which for the present at any rate will prevent them making any sacrifices on behalf of their employees, and the difficulty of infusing them with any enthusiasm for newer ideas and methods. Where Evening Schools and classes have been tried, their success has depended upon — (a) The personality of the teacher {e.g., at St. John's, two years ago). (/)) The novelty of the thing. (c) Self-interest, and (in a slight degree) compulsion. All teachers agree that there will be a rush to classes at first if the teacher be popular and the subject new, but that after Cliristmas the attendances fall away rapidly, and the students sliow no love or aptitude for steady plodding work, (c) Refers particularly to the Science Classes in Mathematics, Physiology, and Hygiene, held in the Clothworkers' Boys' School, especially for pupil teac;hers, who attend splendidly, but this may be in some measure due to the fact that these subjects are treated as part of tlieir curriculum, and it is to the teacher's interests tu secure their certificates. KiPK Michael. — There has been no nioht school here for manv years at least. The master can obtam a fair number of pupils for the piano and harmonium, and now and then is asked to coach lads in book-keeping. There was a Young Men's Debating Society, which was fairly successful. Several of the farmers' wives and daughters attended classes in butter-making two years ago, but the methods there learned have not, save in one or two exceptional cases, been adopted. This is due — (1) To the objection to new methods. (2) The size of the farms is small and not many cattle are kept. This makes farmers hesitate to lay out money on new apparatus or to alter their dairies. It has been suggested that a central " Creamery " equipped with separators, to which farmers could send their milk (might be established). The present premises are not suited for obtaining the best results either in quantity or quality. Cronk-y-Voddy. — Nothing in the way of night schools, classes, debating societies, or private teaching, exists here, owing mainly to the scattered population and the distance between the farms. St. John's. — Night schools have been started several times, but as soon as the novelty wore off the attendance fell almost to zero. The same remark applies to mutual improve- ment societies. XI. A Music Class has been in existence for a few yenrs and seems to prosper. The opinion of the teachers and others is tliat there is no great desire for education for its own sake. FOXDALE. There has been no Night School here for ten years, though some young men asked last winter that one might be started. The Village Jleading-room is well patronised, but no classes are connected with it. A Methodist Debating Society has met with a measure of success. PATRICK. No Night Classes have been held here, though frequent inquiries have been made of the Schoolmaster. The fees, however, would be so small, and the grants so very uncertain, that at present a Night School could not be made to pay. Mr. Cashin feels sure that if the financial difficult}'- were overcome that a good Night School could be formed. The Reading-room has been well attended for six winters, but no lectures or classes have been held. There is a small demand for private teaching. PEEL. Several attempts have been made in late years to make provision for art and technical teaching with more or less success. A Chip Carving Class was very lai-gely attended, and three or four of the pupils have kept up the practice of the craft, two at least having exhibited at the Guild. An Art Class, subsidised by Mr. Mylchreest, started fairly well, but after a while, school teachers and two painters were the only members who attended. Mr. Robertson was the teacher, and one wonders that the class was not a greater success. Basket iNIakiug has received considerable attention, and something has been done to foster this occupation as a home industry', but not more than six people have continued the work. All the staff of the Clothworkers' School received instruction with the definite object of introducing practical basket-making into the school curriculum. A start was made in the Boys' School, but under pressure of other subjects, and the difficulty of arranging the staff to compass the work satisfactorily, it has not been systeuiaticallv carried on. The Mathe- matical School was used for the Basket-making Classes. The teacher was very com- petent, but lacked the ability to teach a class, and so much valuable time was wasted. It was evident that good work could only l)e done by arranging the pupils in small classes. The greatest pains were taken to secure the co-operation of the fishermen in this practical work, but without success. The Cooker}^ Classes at present being held have met with a fair amount of success, but the attendance is not what the practical nature and importance of the work would o-ive one a right to expect. Nor are the classes attended in the main by those who would most benefit by the very practical and excellent teaching given by Miss Wilson. If this subject is to be profitably taught, it must be begun in the Day Schools, and kept up in the Continuation Schools. This would tend to break down the ignorance and pre- judice which bars the way to success. 'J'hree or four years ago Vicar Cnvley and Mr. Matthews, of Glenmoar, attempted the teaching of navigation, but the class collapsed for want of interest, as did another formed by Vicar Williams. These gentlemen were all very practical men, though they lacked the skill of imparting knowledge, and they had to contend with two difficulties : — (!) The old men were unable through want of mathematical knowledge to benefit by much of the teaching. (2) The young men, many of whom had done a fair amount of algebra, showed no interest in the w:)rk, and could not be prevailed on to studv their future interest by attending the classes. Two winters ago we tried to get together a few young iellows with a view to help them over the mathematical difficulties of elementarv navigation, but only one came — a naval instructor — who worked very hard indeed. The Misses Laughton and Mr. Scallon worked a night class successfully durino- one winter for older men, but the work was quite rudimentary in character. Science Classes in mathematics and hygiene (with elementary physiology) have been held in connection with the Clothworkers' Schools. These classes were advertised, and nearly thirty teachers of these schools, tlie Wesleyan School, and Patrick School, have attended regularly. Only about half-a-dozen outsiders joined the classes, even though the first winter it was made known that all masons, painters, and carpenters who desired help in mensuration, &c., would be welcomed. Xll. No fees were charged. One painter, one sailmaker, and two masons attended. This winter, the advanced stages of the sciences are being taken, and it is proposed, next winter, to take up Science (subject 1) and Physiography. The financial difficulty is felt here also, for most certainly the classes do not pay the teacher. A night school, commenced in October, 1894, by the head assistant of the schools, soon collapsed. A large number attended, but the income was incommensurate with the work attempted. For three or four years (\\ inters), two debating societies and one choral society have held very successful gatherings. The attendances have been satisfactory, but in the young men's societies, difficulty was experienced in getting the youths either to prepare papers themselves or to speak. Too much reliance has been placed on lectures and essavs given by outsiders, or by prominent men in the town. A library, opened in connection w4th the Church Young Men's Society, proved that there is some demand for (1) Books of Travel, (2) Modern Fiction, and (3) Popular Science. Each of the three denominations in Peel ojaened reading-rooms or young men's clubs during the past winter. These, with the Seamen's Shelter, were well attended, but little interest was shown in the main in solid reading. The evening papers were glanced at, and the local papers were read, but the leading articles and other matter in the London and provincial dailies and weeklies, and the magazines and denominational journals received scant attention. Most of the time was spent over draughts and parlour games. We have made careful inquiries among the more thoughtful youths, and find there are about thirty engaged in the carpentry, building, and painting trades, and are assured by some that if good classes (at moderate fees) were started for the teaching of mensuration, building construction, and mechanical drawing, sufficient youths \\'ould join to make the venture a success. WILLIAM POTTS, Clothworkers' School, Peel. April 23rd, 1896. xni. NORTHERN DISTRICT. RAMSEY, MAUGHOLD, LEZAYRE, BRIDE, ANDREAS, JURBY, BALLAUGH. General RErouT. — Respecting- the text of the general report submitted by Mr. Shepherd on behalf of the Isle of Man teachers, I have to state that the Northern Association of Teachers is in thorough accord with the contents of that report, it havini>- been prepared by the two Associations of this Island conjointly. SUPPLEMENT. The following supplementary report deals specifically with the North onlv. DEMAND FOR HIGHER EDUCATION. Inquiry has been made from all the teachers of the North, and great difficulty has been experienced in ai-riving at a coriTct estiu'ate of the number of children desiring Secondary Education in each district, for the following reasons : — ( I ) Many parents do not understand what is meant and give no reply, either affirmative or negative. (2) Others who partly under- stand hesitate to reply to questions concerning the subject matter of which tliey have no experience. Many would probably avail themselves of such advantages when in working order. (3) The information has been obtained mainly from the teacheis ; the figures (see Table 1) re|ireseuring in must cases their estimate each for his own school. In one school (Eamsev National) a plebiscite has be<^n taken, uf u[)per Standards (Table 2). In another, the numbers have been estimated on the number of children now attending private schools from that dislrii-t (Andreas). In another no figures are given (Eamsey Wesleyan), the master stating: "No master is in a position to state anything of the kind. Some have " attempted to do so, but I can be no party to it. How can people know whether they have "a desire to have a thing without fiist knowing what the thing is, and what it mav mean " to them and others ? " CENTRE. llamsey is unanimously regarded as the most convenient centre, if any establishment for the purpose of Secondary Education is contemplated, owing to the facilities for reaching it from all parts of the North. DAY SCHOOLS (ELEMENTARY) and SliCONDARY or HIGHER EDUCATION. It is generally agreed that under existing conditions, viz.: — (1) The already overcrow> .... 2 1 .... .. . ... 1 .... ... ... .... I . . .... .... .. . .... .... .... 3 ... .... .. . 17 16 Total.. 33 GIRLS. Domestic Service 5 1 6 Dressmaking 1 1 Teacher 1 1 Factory 1 1 Employed at home 10 4 14 18 5 Total... 23 xvu. V. Return of" children in Fifth Standard and over : — School. Boys. Girls. Total. Laxey National 47 39 86 South Cape Board IS 14 32 Ballagawne 7 9 16 Total 72 62 134 N.B. — Twu boys and one girl h:ive to attend the Higher Grade, Douglas. VI. The number of children whose parents could atlbrd to keep them at a Secondary School up to 15 or 16 years, even at tlie most moderate fee, say 6d. a week, is very small ; perhaps 50. The number who would actually avail themselves of such, if provided, would be still smaller, probablv not more than 25 at first ; but it would, in some extent, depend upon whether provided in the district or outside. VII. Desirable subjects for day and evening continuation classes : — (a) Day (in coimection with schools) : — Agricultural (or chemistry) and manual training (wood-work or other) for boys ; cookery and domestic economy for girls. Central classes for the children of the three schools («). {b) Evening Continuation : — The above, with the addition of drawing, mining, and book-keeping for boys ; and laundry-work for girls. (x) Accommodation would have to be provided, the most convenient and central place being at or near the South Cape School, where cookeiy and joinery rooms could he built in the present yards, or the latter subject might be taken at the Working Men's Institute, New Eoad, Note. — Tliere is no widespread desire at present for Secondary or Industrial Education ; but if classes were established experimentally, the demand for them would doubtless grow. In Table IV. there is no return for BaUagawne Board School, but it is estimated that about one-third go to farm work, and the remainder into shops, trades, &c. XVlll. MR. J. E. LEECE'S REPORT. Douglas, June, 1896. Need for Secondary Eot cation for Pupil Teachers. In my opinion a very important branch of Secondary Education is the efficient training of ti'.e pupil teachers in our elementary schools. In all large centres of population in England ]3upil teachers have exceptional advantages for acquiring an education suitable to the important natui'e of their work. The consequence is that country pupil teachers, and those in tovA'ns where no special provision is made for their education, labour under great disadvantages, and frequently fail to pass the final oi' Queen's Scholarship examination. The curriculum for this examination consists of certain subjects which are compulsory, and others which are optional. By taking the optional subjects, well favoured pupil teachers, naturally not more intelligent, gain extra marks, which give them an advantage over their less favoured brethren, in the shape of admission to a training college. The Douglas School Committee have recently established central classes for the training of their pupil teachers, and in addition send them to special classes for Art, Science, and French. The pupil teachers iu voluntary schools are debarred from attending these central classes, but may attend the Art, Science, and French class, on the pa3''ment of a certain fee. In the case of Board pupil teachers the ratepayers jiay one-half of tliis fee. Tlie managers and teachers of voluntary schools think it most unfair that their pupil teachers should be compelled to pay the full amount, seeing tliat voluntary pupil teachers do at least equal work in the interest of the ratepa}'er and his child as the Board pupil teachers. In any scheme for procuring Secondary Education for pupil teachers, voluntary managers and teachers claim equality in financial matters with Board schools. The Bill at present before the Imperial Pai'liament settles once and for ever the fact that the elementary educational system of this country is to be a dual system, and that the two component parts of this system are to be treated, theoretically at least, as if they were alike worthy of the nation's respect and support. I am in favour of an independent authority such as the Board of Education to look after the training of pupil teachers in both kinds of schools, so that the Board and voluntary systems may work together in harmony for the welfare of our Island home. Further, I am of opinion that arrangements should be made whereby pupil teachers serving their apprenticeship in the country could attend the Education Board's centre once or twice a week. Not until such a scheme is carried out will we do justice all round, and the community as a whole receive the benefit of the large slims it is paying for education. Cookery and Manual Training in all Voluntary Schools I regard as branches of Secondary Education. Both these subjects ai-e at present taught to the upper children in our Board Schools. Those ratepayers who from necessity or choice send their children to the volun- tary school with which I am connected must forego the benefit of the training of their children in these subjects. I contend that equal treatment should be meted out to all schools patronized by the ratepayers until those who support the Board system are pre pared to find accommodation for all our children, or until the ratepayer obtains the privilege of paying his Education Rate into a Voluntary or School Board fund. XIX The Need of a Suitable Text Dealing with the Geography, History, &c., OF THE Island. Although tlie fifth question on the suinmoiises sent to witnesses asks whether a Hterary education woukl be best suited to any particulai" district, 1 do not know whether the subject, about which I now propose to speak, comes directly within tlie scope of this inquiry. However, with the permission of the Commissioners, I would like to ventilate a subject which has occupied my thoughts for some time ])ast. Asa Manxman, and as a teacher in a Manx school, I think a suitable text dealing with the geography, history, and constitution of the Island ; the life and duties of the Manx citizen ; short biographies of Manx worthies ; a collection of the best poems relating to the Island, or written by Manxmen ; togetiier with other kindred subjects, should be written for the use of uppei- standard children i'l om- elementary schools, and pupils in evening continuation and secondary schools. Owing to the limited circulation, consequent upon the size of the Island, such a work would have to be subsidized by the Education Board. The risk at present connected with its publication is doubtless the cause of sucli a text- book being non-existent. I am not in a position to say what subjects of instruction would best meet the wishes of parents in towns ; but having been master of a country school for eight years, I am strongly of opinion that instruction in the various branches of agriculture must be the subject for country schools. Our Island is peculiarly circumstanced with regard to the provision we can make for the welfare of our sons and daughters. There are no .staple inditstries worthy of the name — barring agriculture and catering for our sununer visitors. Here, at least, is some opening f(n' an enterprising community. After several years of careful training in the most approved methods of dairy-farming, poultry-rearing, fruit-culture, timber-growing, bee-keeping, cattle-rearing, and scientific farming generally, I see no valid reason why our Manx farmers and market gardeners should not supply all the farm produce consumed by our visitors, to say nothing of exportation. Those who are interested in the social welfare of our people, have viewed with regret the depopulation of our country parishes. By making life more pleasant in the country districts, by building better hotises for the labourers, and by giving our country brethren some of the benefits of town life, we may in time see a return of the people to the soil. Good schools, where sound agricultural priiici|)les are carefully taught by a thoroughly qualifiefl peripatetic teacher, or otherwise, are neces.sary in our Island. The Island, and nob the parishes, should pay the cost, on the same principle that the Po.st-office now collects and delivers letters in sparselv populated districts. The Institution of Scholakships, and the Best Means of Applying tpiem for ANY of the Purposes of Higher Education. I favour a plan of attaching to each school a .S3'stem of leaving exhibitions assignable as the managers and teachers may in each case decide. One per cent, per aniutm to each school, I would consider, a fair proportion of children entitled to a scholarship. This for Dotiglas would mean 30 per annum, and as the course would probably extend three vears, it would mean '90 children at the Higher Grade or some other Secondary School. Scholarships should be l^estowed preferentially upon the children of parents whose circumstances would not otherwise warrant the continuance of their children at school. The papers set at examinations fn- leaving exhibitions from public elementarv schools to secondary schools, should be strictly confined to the subjects obligatory in elementary schools, together with one additional class subject. Precaution should be taken, as far as pos.sible, in order to render abortive any practice of paying for the special tuition of competitors. XX. COMPARATIVE COST OF BOARD AND VOLUNTARY SCHOOLS IN DOUGLAS. (a) Name of School, (b) Average Attendance, (c) Amount of Expenditure. (d) Average Expenditure per Cliild. (a) Tynvvald-street Board Hanover-street ,, Park -road ,, Athol-street ,, (^>) (c) (d) 586 . . £1,452 16 7* .. £2 9 7 758 . 1,759 8 0^ 2 6 5 212 . 1,108 2 5 5 4 H 448 . 1.128 £5,449 14 7 £12 10 H 2,004 1 8 10 11 140 . £283 18 8 .. £2 H 286 . 845 6 2 2 19 H 363 . 642 4 1 1 15 H 160 . 179 18 9 1 2 H 949 £1,951 7 8 £7 17 _6| St. Tliomas' Voluntary... 140 St. Mary's Thomas-street ,, Well- road ,, JOSEPH E. LEECE, St. Thomas' School. MR. G. WHITTAKER'S REPORT. Douglas Evening Continuation Schools. Mr. Garside. Dear Sir, — The following are the statistics of the Tynwald-street Evening Continuation School for Session ended April 30th, 1895, as given before the Secondary Education Commission. Number on registers, 86. Average attendance, 39. Average attendance of day school boys, 13. Subjects taken : Writing, Arithmetic, Mensuration, Book-keeping, Elementary Science, Shorthand, Drawing. Number of Scholars between Over 14- -15 15- -16 16- -17 17- -18 18- -19 19- -20 20- -21 21 Total. 16 24 15 9 8 3 4 7 86 Number of Scholars who took two subjects 6 » ,, „ three „ 54 „ „ „ four , 23 five 3 86 Fees. — 2d. per week for elementary subjects ; 4d. per week for all other subjects. Amount of Fees for Session £7 7 i Amount of Grant for Session 31 13 6 Bonus from School Committee 5 Fuel, light, and cleaning defrayed by the School Committee. The above sums constitute the teachers' stipend. Boys from the day school (Standard V. and upwards) were allowed to attend if they desired. I am, yours truly, GEORGE WHITTAKER. INDEX TO THE EVIDENCE. Alphabetical List of Names of Witnesses Examined at the Towns Named, WITH THE Pages on which their Evidence Begins. Castlbtown. Clague, R. 45 Crellin, E 45 Hodgkinson, Miss 32 Jefferson, T. E 41 Kewley, Rev. J 36 Qualtrough, H 34 Qualtrou»h, J 43 Shepherd, E.T 29 Spicer. Rev. J. M 40 Watterson, T. W 35 Wicksey, J. C. W 37 Douglas. Barthelemy, J. A 88 Cadman, P 20 Clague, R. J 25 Clarke, Canon 18 Fennah. E - 8 Grundey, F. B. 17 Hudson, T 11 Kerniisb, E 27 Keriuish, W. M 27 Leece, J. E 14 Moore, Canon 19 Potts, W b Quayle, T. P 9 Reddiclifiee, Capt 26 Ridge, A J. 13 Robertson, D. M 23 Savage, Rev. E. B 21 Shepherd, E.T 1 Taylor, J 28 Vulliaray,L. L 28 Whittaker, G 15 Peel. Cannell, J. Q 86 Cannell, W. J 77 Corlett, Rev. J 83 Corlett, T 84 Corlett, T. A 80 Corlett. W.H 86 Christian, E. T 75 Faraker, Dr 79 Cell, R. 82 Kelly, T 83 Kermode, T. C 78 Kitto, Capt 85 Laughton, Mrs 75 Potts, W 69&81 Preston, J 77 Quayle, W 82 Ramsey. Black, W 66 Callow, J 62 Cowley. J 65 Cowley, R. 60 Fennah, E 47 Harrison, Rev. S. N 50 Rerruish, J. R 63 Kneale, J 67 LaMothe, J. C 55 Newton, Rev. A. S 55 Paton, Rev. G 52 Southward, J 64 I ALPHABETICAL ARRANGEMENT OF THE POINTS OF EVIDENCE GIVEN AT EACH TOWN. THE NUMBERS REFER TO THE QUESTIONS. ART SCHOOL. Classes at, system nt Committee of. in liamls of Oirls at, attendance of Grants to, reduction of Help for under Technical Instruction Act Master's payment at Mechanical &c. drawing at. demand for Douglas. Castletown. 389 3o6 385 382-4 396 388 394-5 Social standing of pupils at j ^^^^ Examinations at, otmients averse to 379ol 355 ... Study at, how to promote . CHILD LABOUR REQUIRED DISTANCES TO TRAVEL, AND COST. ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS. Accommodation in Additions for secondary education required at.. Alterations of , cost of Age children leave Available for evening continuation schools and classes Bonus to Children in, after life of Children in, number of Cookery could be taken in Cookery now taught in Curriculum of. is overcrowded Girls' secondary education should be added to . Instruction at should be raised 3, 52. 161-2, 409, 448 9 585-6, 660, 662, 670-1, 7%-8 499, 511, 535, 549- 53, 576-7, 598 485-7 22, 26, 28-34, 109 470, 484, 517 25 . 176. 557. 26, 42. 172 171, 175., 36-7 24,42.. 370 509, 470, 618. 707. 476, 542, 587 . 651, 653 . Kindergarten at Secondary education could be added to . Secondary educition is no* partly in Should overlap evening continuation school . Staff of has enough work Staff of is inadequate.. Suitable for secondary education .... Unsuitable for secondary education. 539, 554, 597, 617, 696 ; '536 45. 57, 63-5. 108, I 480, 515, 663 599, 401, 465 96-7 98-100 54,65,437 ... 24, 28-34, 93, 109 42, 56, 554. 565, 617, 659, 663 619. 659, 665, 672. 698 401 480.655, 661 20-1. 25. 42, 84, 516, 569-70 .. 108, 140.1, 172, 182, 200 Voluntary elementary should be under public control ENGINEERING SCHOOLS EVENING CONTINUATION SCHOOLS. A benefit Age of pupils at Attendance at Boys and girls mi.xed in Cheaper than a central school Day scholars at Failures of Fees at Financial position of Inspection of Limit of standard for Measures to encourage Miners could attend Needed or not New code increase.-* attendance at .. On small scaleat first Secondary education, subjects for.. Should be general in " country" Staff of Subjects taught at Suitable for girls _ Suitable far secondary education .. 78. 204, 206-15 246.259 44,101-2 239-41.302-10.574, 415-0, 430-5 104 Suit all ages Suit towns best Teachers' salaries at Work in, too heavy for head day teachers . FEES. All should pay Amount of pai-ents would pay Evening Continuation Schools (which see). Evening Science Classes (which see) Generally Girl's High School (for) 248-51 122, 154-8, 180 254-8. 325 255, 524, 560 242-5 49-51, 89-90 116-7, 120-1, 123 184 445 118-9. 265 405, 437 404, 410 55 64-6, 264 247 261-2 41-5. 89, 115. 154-7 157. 171, 205, 260 302-10. 525. 525. 567, 599. 414, 430 464 45-7,103 52 231-3 254-7 , 68, 70, 79-83, 199 5,80 Kamsev. 908. 750. 1014-5, 1024-7, 1042 746-7. 767. 804, 808-9. 1C40, 1074-5 1056, 1066 794 6, 825 782, 815-4, 100710 1014-5, 1043 4 1038 825 Peel. 778, 785-6 852 952 4, 985-5, 991 2, 10". 2, 1014 792, 579,600,620,, 60O. 563, 657., 538 521, 543-8, 712-5, 481, 754 742-5, 780. 804-5. 807. 825, 858, £97. 906, 921-5. 979, 1041). 1075, 1078, 1085 792,826 824, 1015, 1040 978, 1000-1 10801 799 1082 .. 1581 1110, 1211, 1250-1. 1288, 1291, 1293, 1541-2, 1558 1112-5 1151 1274 1178, 1204. 1264, 1282, 1284, 1315 1118, 1174. 1362 1136 1114,1133-6,1271-2 1166-7, 1259. 1371-2 1112. 1180, 1260-1, 1362-3 1322 1325 1151 1115, 1322 1090-2 781, 907, 1088 . 1080 762-4, 996, 1023, 1036, 1070 I 950-34, 937 1168 1115 1335 ALPHABETICAL ARRANGEMENT, &c. (Continued.) Fees (Continued). Grammar Schools (which see). King William's College (at).... None at Cookery Centres Private Schools (at) Same for all Willingness to pay Would not support Higher Grade School (which see) GRAMMAR SCHOOLS. Accommodation at Buildings suitable for Secondary Education Conversion of to Hiclier Grade School (effect of) Convert into Higlier Grade School Elemebtary Sciiool children at Endowments of Enlarge or re build.. Failure (a) Fees at Higher Grade School better than Hij;her (Jrade School effect on Higher Grade School instead of Intermediate School (as) Keep as at present Legal position of Necessity (a) Popular control of Preparatory School (a) Private venture school (is a) Provide for over VI. Standard (would) Pupils ages at Pupils — number of at Douglas. 225-7 450 8, 60, 78. 94, 198, 301, 403 1390-4. 1413, 1415, 1418 1385-7, 1417 1398 - 9, 1406, 1419.. 1408 1384-7,1396,1416 1402-3 1395 Scholarships at Social staniling of Staff, additional at, for secondary education. State aid necessitates public control of Subjects taught at Technical education, could provide at Tenure (conditions of) Unauitabit* tor whole district GARDENS (SCHOOL) HIGHKR GRADE SCHOOL. Better than evening continuation schools Better than improved elementary sehools Centres for Cost of. Fees will not support Girls'high schools Grammar schools and King William's College not equal to Grammar School in place of King William's College not .suitable for Local endowments to be used for .. Local one «ill not pay Not required Number who would attend One for each town One in Douglas sufficient Other district children an advantage to Peel, Ramsey. Castletown not large enough for Places pupils go from to Douglas Higher Grade School Pupils of, to pass to Universities, &c Standard and age to attend (above what?).. Subjects at Under control of Board of Education Unfair rating for Would be well supported Would kill Grammar School 1388. 1407, 1421 1404-5 1420 1410, 1400-1. 1411 . 1412, 1414 1397-8 Castletown. Ramsey. Peel. 475 998 530, 532.. 631-4 , 629-30 701 475, 647.. 731 6«9 625, 638-40 705 646 623 4,714-5 625-8, 635-6, 705-6 637, 641 644-5 . I 709 765-7 . 901 881 4. 893-5 863. 949 879 840 842, 941-3 863-5 829. 833, 877-8. 886-92, 898, 937 827. 850, 977 841 845-6, 861 947, 972-5 924-7 830 874-5 865. 938-40 876. 900 1106-10.1190,1219, 1226-9, 1240, 1249, 1330 11923 1190, 1209 1246-8, 1250 411-13 183, 190.. 67 68,70 481 58! '451 ■ 56,59.. 441-4 446. 148. 189. 321-2, 408. 423, 447 577, 451-2 479. 4S5-7, 498, 510. 512. 531. 534-5. 549-50, 571-5. 573. .S98-9 611, 692-3, 699, 7C0, 708, 710, 716-20 482-4 , 649.... 532-3, 543 899, 920 526. 529. 543-i 587, 591-2 716. 371-3 . 476, 480 527, 540, 729, 733 588-90. 613 721,725 555 598 581 748-9, 757, 863. 955, 960, 968. 980-1. 993. 1018- 9. 1039. 1041, 1050-2, 1093 765.806,863,867-1 870 928-34, 937 859-62 737-8.955-6,961-71. 979, 996-7, 1006, 1017-18, 1028-9, 1076-8, 10S6 757, 863 1189 1196 nil. 1123, 1185-6, 1188, 1217, 1224, 1239, 1252 - 4, 1262, 1275 - 7, 129,S - 6, 1305, 1310-1, 1325-8, 1341, 1316, 1365, 1377 1147 1042 768, 779, 847, 1005 751 883. 999 837-8, 950 862 1106-10.1219,1226- 9. 1240, 1249, 1330 1103. 1187, 1200-1, 1218, 1230. 1232, 12^9, 1241 - 14, 1292, 1294, 1299, 1305 - 6, 1312, 1315, 1331 - 2, 1356, 1369, 1375 1222. 1233, 1235, 1281 1221. 1343 1205, 1357 13089 ALPHABETICAL ARRANGEMENT, &c. (Continued.) LIBRARIES. Assist Secondary Education Cost ofaschemetoassist Secondary Education Demand for technical books at In connection withscliools Scheme for working School Committee should provide Suitable localities for PERIPATETIC TEACHERS. ■Objections to Responsibility of Suitable for Evening Continuation Schools . Suitable for technical subjects ... Permanent teachers preferred to REVENUE. Should pay for Secondary Education Should pay for Cookery Centres SCHOLARSHIPS AND EXHIBITIONS (Ladder). Advantageous generally Age to begin Clever pupils (for) Cover fees, books, &c. (should) Elementary Schools (should be open to).. Grammar Schools (to) Higher Grade Schools (to) Intermediate School (should be first to) . King William's College (to) Limited to position of parents (should be).. Number of Open to all (should be) Technical Schools (to) University (should extend to).. SECONDARY EDUCATION (Geaepally). Agencies existing for Age would attend school for Availed of (would be) Boon (a) Demand for Desire for Difficulties in connection with Division of Island for Embraced under (what is) Evidence for— how obtained .. Girls (for) Improves chances abroad Meaning of Means to spi-ead knowledge of.. Money required for. Need for Need for (how to meet) Poor should be compelled for.. Rites, objections to, for Rates, willingness to pay for . Scheme, small for at first .. School life (would lengthen).. Subjects of required Understood (is it) Voluntary school teachers (for) . Douglas. 453-6, 461 458 . 457 221. 419 460 419 459 38, 85, 111-2, 142, 202 181, 201 113-4. 3Z4-5, 367, 437 35,437 39-40, 86, 110 61-2,67.170,418., 223, 228 89, 325. 404 . 325. 358-9 . 69. 149, 151 2, 325, 359 71, 326-34.. 215, 357 10-4,95,405,414. 422 1, 74, 107. 124-9, 145-8, 166, 192-7, 213, 398, 4ii2, 417, 420, 435-6, 440. 444 5.7.75, 1;9, 163-5, 167, 179, 196, 300-1, 321, 338, 344, 348, 364, 462 19 35 5, 6, 406-7., 185-8.195,211 17, 18 7,15.16,76-7,165, 167-9, 317, 463.. 315-16, 318, 346 .. 59, 61, 67, 361 . 56, 91-2. 430, 437 173, 405 2-4, 311-14, 421 216-20, 222-9 Castletows. 564-5, 658.. 488,575,582,601. 556, 600-11 559, 62 558 477-8, 504. 600-11, 614-16, 666-7 558, 600,-11, 614-6 Ram.sey. 866, 932 770,836.848-9 772, 794-5. 829, 832-3. 845-6 829, 832-3, 845-6 753, 772 580, 666-7 477-8,504.553.580,' 753. 772, 774, 829, 600-11, 614-6, 659 832-3, 845-6 600-11 851 834 474, 520.. 477, 587.. 595 493. 539, 651, 674, 695 467, 491, 494, 506- 7. 513. 542. 566- 7.595-6.643,665, 651, 717 699 471, 508, 51S-9, 567, 651, 674 468-9 725 491 5S5-6, 702-3 656 695-8 . 503, 517, 522-5 704-5 488 583.4, 593, 612, 734 472, 514, 568. 642, 6M-5, 652-4, 732 489-90. 492, 595, 675-82 1064 772, 832-3, 845-6 803,1035,1055.. 817.823 899, 987, 1011 .. 790-1, 802, 821, 823, 899, 947 1061 1008 989 788-9, 815, 820, 912, 918-9. 977, 991,1001-4,1048, 1068, 1071-2 967.8 853.4, 866. 986 754. 958 9. 977-8. 980, 986, 1046-7 739-41, 1061 . 758 61, 822, 990 Peel. 1202, 1267, 1324, 1366-7, 1373 1121, 1153. 1198. 1211, 1214, 1276, 1316, 1319 - 20, 1368 1154 1198, 1206, 1270 1121-2, 1157-8 1155, 1162, 1164 1164 1121,1163 1159-61,1278-9,1317 1307 1153. 1198, 12U, 1214 1099 1287, 1355 1096-8, 1186, 1336 1096-8 1148-9, 1197, 1210, 1220, 1234, 1236- 7, 1303-4 1280, 1297,1374 1148-9, 1197, 1210, 1220, 1234, 1236- 7, 1503-4 1100-1 ALPHABETICAL ARRANGEMENT, &c. {Cuiitinued.) TECHNICAL KDUCATION. Aericultiire (means to teach) Centres and buildings for Dairy work, cookery, farriery, &c., classes Expensive Failures of past attempts to teach.. Meanine of Required Requires many teachers Requires special rooms Should not be confined to towns.. Some now tau};ht Subjects of (required) Useful tor those going abroad.. DOUliLAS. 156, 171. 183, 218. 309.466 410. 181. 17 171,340,342.. 106 48.154 170 171, 340, 342 171, 424-9 Castlbtown. C21-2, 689.. 652, 683, 689-91 .. 498, 500 504 473, 597, 652, 687 Ramsey. Peel. 1139-43, 1146 810-12, 1C62 ! 1111. 1119. 1255-8, 1269. 1321, 1346- 1057-62, 1088-9 1063 1021 1044 7. 1351 11445, 1203, 1265- 7. 1285, 1362, 1373 1124-32, 1170-3, 1176 775-7, 987. 1054, 1176. 1263, 1263, 1061, 1086 1302, 1315 - 4, 13J3, 1339, 1350, 1352 UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA LIBRARY Los Angeles This book is DUE on the last date stamped below. Form L9-50m-4,'61(B8D9484)444 I ^38 Man, Isle of. ^JI3A^ Commission on 1897 Secondary (incl u^ dinp Industrial and Tec hnical) Educa- |ti6n - I ti'Cn'.'.'t-cc nf Rvidencfi__ UC SOUTHERN REGIONAL L'BRARV EACjLITY D 000 998 556 5 I 638 M3A5 1897