Gre^t Britain. Parliament. 
 
 Pouse of Commons. 
 
 Interesting extracts from 
 
 *Mnr if evidence t^ken 
 
 Before the conpittes of the 
 whole house . ,
 
 UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA 
 AT LOS ANGELES 

 
 /'-,-,/ /'*.J. // f- 
 INTERESTING EXTRACTS 
 
 FROM THE 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 
 
 TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 
 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE, 
 
 TO WHOM IT WAS REFERRED TO CONSIDER 
 
 OF THE 
 
 &ffair0 of $e Cast f nUta Company 
 
 IN THE SESSIONS 1813; 
 
 Illustrative of the Improvements in the Manufacture of 
 Iron, Steel, Brass, Tin, Copper, Hemp, Cordage, <^c. 
 
 BY THE NATIVES OF INDIA. 
 
 LONDON: 
 
 Printed by T. Davison, Whilefrian ; 
 AND SOLD BY J. M. RICHAKDSON, CORNHILL. 
 
 18 14-,
 
 y A; 
 
 CONTENTS. 
 
 . 
 
 Extract from the Evidence of Lord Teignmouth 1 
 
 L . Lieut.-Col. Sir John 
 
 Malcolm 2, 35 
 
 . , Major-Gen. Alex. Kyd 4 
 
 _ . Groeme Mercer, Esq. 5 
 
 _ David Vanderheyden, Esq. ib. 
 
 . Lestock Wilson, Esq. 6 
 
 . - William Fairlie, Esq. ib. 
 
 . i Col. Thomas Munro 9 
 
 , Sir Charles W. Mallet, Bart, 11 
 
 . Alex. Falconer, Esq. 12 
 
 ^ . . ..- Thos. Cockburn, Esq. 14 
 
 . Charles Buller, Esq. 16 
 
 A -. John Stracev, Esq. 18 
 
 "V 
 
 Thos. Sydenham, Esq. ib. 24 
 
 ^ , John Woolmore, Esq. 19 
 
 Robert Morris, Esq. 27 
 
 . , William Davies, Esq. 28 
 
 , , Wm. Stanley Clarke, Esq. 34 
 
 1 Martin Lindsay, Esq. 37 
 
 ^ Thos. G. Murray, Esq. 38 
 
 . James Horsburgh, Esq. 39 
 
 , Sir G. J. Staunton, Bart. 40 
 
 Daniel Beale, Esq. ib. 
 
 i James Drummond, Esq. ib.
 
 INTERESTING EXTRACTS 
 
 FROM THE MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 
 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE, 
 
 TO WHOM IT WAS REFERRED 
 
 To consider of the Affairs of the East India Company, 
 
 IN THE SESSIONS 1813; 
 
 ILLUSTRATIVE OF THE IMPROVEMENTS IN THE MANUFACTURE 
 OF IRON, STEEL, BRASS, TIN, COPPER, HEMP, CORDAGE, &C. 
 
 BY THE NATIVES OF INDIA. 
 
 Names of the Witnesses and Pages of the Minutes. 
 Lord Teignmouth, p. 16. 
 
 your lordship happen to know what the rate of wages 
 is in India ? 
 
 I certainly once knew, but have forgotten. I know that 
 subsistence in India may be procured easier than in any other 
 part of the world, and that a native of that country for 3s. a 
 mouth may live luxuriously: that may be some rule for esti- 
 mating the rate of labour. 
 
 Your lordship having stated 3s. a month to be sufficient 
 for the subsistence of a labourer in India, does your lordship 
 happen to know what farther sum may be necessary for his 
 clothing and his other necessary expenses ?
 
 I have not a sufficient recollection to say what further 
 might be necessary for supplying him with clothing ; it could 
 not be much, because cloth is very cheap in that country, and 
 the quantity which a labourer wears is very little. 
 
 Lieut. Colonel Sir John Malcolm, p. 59. 
 
 Can you state, whether for the purpose of European or 
 British consumption, in the principal settlements of the Com- 
 pany in India, Indian artisans or manufacturers of European 
 commodities have established themselves in those settlements ? 
 They have; but the great proportion of such articles are 
 manufactured under the direction, at least, of European arti- 
 sans, who are settled at the various presidencies. 
 
 Have European artisans began to settle there, and to carry 
 on their trades ? 
 
 They have : in the different settlements of Calcutta, Ma- 
 dras^ and Bombay, are to be found coachmakers, uphol- 
 sterers, boot and shoemakers, leather manufacturers of all 
 kinds, particularly at Madras, watchmakers, silversmiths, all 
 Europeans, with native workmen. 
 
 Do the produce of those manufactures tend to diminish the 
 consumption of European commodities sent from Europe ? 
 
 They must, no doubt, have that tendency in a very consi- 
 derable degree; and they are (as far as I could judge) extend- 
 ing as fast aa Europeans come out to direct them. 
 
 You have said that the artisans are Europeans, with Indiaa 
 workmen; from your observation, are not the Indians ex- 
 tremely ready in learning any handicraft art, and have they 
 not been enabled to make those articles to very considerable 
 perfection ? 
 
 ITiey are extremely apt at learning all such trades : various 
 manufactures have been established ; leather in all its branches 
 is manufactured at a tannery established at Madras, at which 
 they make military accoutrements, boots, shoes, and other 
 articles, even to ladies gloves; carriages and other articles are 
 made in very great perfection : many of the half-cast, or chil- 
 dren of European fathers and native mothers are employed ID 
 such trades. 
 
 From this aptitude on the part of the Indians, is it not 
 likely lliat they v\ould in process of time supply themselves 
 with all .such articles, to a diminution of European importa- 
 tion to India t
 
 There can be no doubt they would; I should conceive, from 
 the price of labour, that they will be enabled to make those 
 articles cheaper ; I mean all such articles as the nature of the 
 climate will admit of their manufacturing. 
 
 P. 67. Do not you think that it would be good policy in 
 the British government to increase the means of information 
 to the natives of India; information such as you have de- 
 scribed ? 
 
 I consider that in a state of so extraordinary a nature as 
 British India, the first consideration of the government must 
 always be its own safety; and that the political question of 
 governing that country must be paramount to all other consi- 
 derations : under that view of the case, I conceive every 
 subordinate measure (and such I conceive that referred to 
 in the question,) must be regulated entirely by the superior 
 consideration of political security. 
 
 Might not an increase in the knowledge of useful arts in 
 the natives, conveyed by British subjects resident in India, 
 tend to strengthen the British government in India ? 
 
 I conceive that such knowledge might tend in a considera- 
 ble degree to increase their own comforts and their enjoyment 
 of life ; but I cannot see how it would tend in any shape to 
 strengthen the political security of the English government in 
 India, which appears to me to rest peculiarly upon their pre- 
 sent condition. 
 
 P. 70. You have mentioned on a former night that the 
 natives of India were getting into the habit of manufacturing 
 articles the same as those supplied from this country : do you 
 think that articles so manufactured are as good as those im- 
 ported from England? 
 
 The tannery lately established at Madras by an European 
 gentleman of the name of Parry, who has various assistants 
 acquainted with that manufacture, has reached a very extraor- 
 dinary degree of perfection : leather pantaloons, even for the 
 horse artillery, are, I believe, manufactured there, also gloves 
 of very excellent description; and I have heard within the 
 last two years, there is a tolerable glas manufactory esta- 
 blished at Madras ; the carriages made at Calcutta are, I be- 
 lieve, generally speaking, preferred to those sent out from 
 England, though many of the materials are imported from 
 this country; the furniture is also excellent, and silver plate 
 is manufactured by Europeans, as well as many other articlei.
 
 and I am not aware that there are any circumstances of 
 climate which can make a difference in the production of 
 equally good mechanics, in any of the manufactures 1 have 
 stated. 
 
 Do you think that the natives of India are likely to rival us 
 in their manufacture of woollens, cutlery, and other hardware? 
 
 In India they have no wool fit for the manufacture, and 
 therefore can never rival us in that : I have seen articles of 
 cutlery and even brass instruments made in very considerable 
 perfection ; the latter was at the gun carriage yard, in Seringa- 
 patam, where European superintendants have instructed 
 some of the half-cast artisans and natives to be very skilful 
 workmen ; and I cannot myself understand (if there is no ob- 
 jection on the point of climate) why the same persons that 
 manufacture articles in England, if they have the materials in 
 India, should not make them there. 
 
 Major General Alexander Kycl, p. 78. 
 
 Can you state whether more manufacture of European 
 articles is pursued now in Calcutta and the other presidencies 
 than formerly ? 
 
 A gieat number of European artisans have established 
 themselves in Calcutta, in Patna, at all our cantonments at 
 Lucknow, and almost all the great towns where there are 
 Europeans for carrying on the various manufactures of articles 
 used by Europeans, such as carriages, furniture of all kinds, 
 palankeens of a peculiar construction, invented by the Euro- 
 peans, plate, sadlery, boots and shoes, salting meats, in making 
 guns and pistols, and a variety of other articles that I do not 
 now recollect ; they have taught the native artificers, who are 
 very acute arid dexterous, to execute every article in a man- 
 ner almost to emulate those that are sent from England ; but 
 I have to observe that the whole of these manufactures is for 
 the use of Europeans, as they can furnish them at a cheaper 
 rale than thvse of the same kind imported from Europe ; and 
 I firmly bcheve, that if we were by any means to leave IJin- 
 dostan altogether, that they would entirely drop those mann- 
 factuies and employ themselves in carrying on their own. 
 
 It in consequence of the proposed opening of the trade the 
 number of artificers should materially increase at those re-
 
 ipective settlements, looking to the present skill of the natives 
 as now described, and to the immense disproportion of labour 
 between India and this country, do you think that in time 
 such an ingress of artificers might not be the means of very 
 much superseding the necessity for the importation of British 
 manufactures to India ? 
 
 It has already in a great measure superseded that necessity, 
 and the increase of articles which have gone from this country 
 has not been in proportion to the increase of the European 
 population. 
 
 Looking to the unlimited licence of ingress now proposed, 
 and to the habits of the natives, according to your experience, 
 do you think that such opening of the trade will be consistent 
 either with the happiness of the natives or with the security of 
 the British interest in India ? 
 
 I do not think it can possibly be conducive to the happi- 
 ness of the natives, and I think it would in a material degree 
 risk our safety in that country. 
 
 Gr&mt Mercer , Esq. p. 89. 
 
 Are not the natives of India generally a manufacturing 
 people, skilful in manufacturing operations, and likely to 
 provide for themselves whatever manufactures they stand in 
 need of? 
 
 They are very much so, and have hardly any, if any, wants 
 from foreign countries. 
 
 Have not many of the natives been lately taught European 
 arts, to supply the wants of the Europeans at the presidencies 
 of India ? 
 
 Many native artisans have been taught by Europeans, and 
 are now settled in every principal town or station where 
 Europeans reside, and furnish a great proportion of the articles 
 required by Europeans. 
 
 David Pander hey den, Esq. p. 93. 
 
 Do you know whether there has been an increasing dis- 
 position in the Indian artificers to manufacture articles for 
 European use ? 
 
 Yes ; they are themselves very ingenious, and excellent imi- 
 tators ; and they have been also taught by European artificers ;
 
 they manufacture various articles, such as carriages, furniture, 
 plate, and various other articles, very nearly to approach those 
 manufactured in Europe in point of excellence. 
 
 Supposing, in consequence of the increased facility of visit- 
 ing India, that an increased number of artificers should go 
 there, and looking to the immense disproportion of the price 
 of labour between India and this country, do you apprehend 
 that in time the necessity of import of British manufactures 
 might not thereby be in a great degree superseded ? 
 
 I should think it would annually diminish from that 
 cause. 
 
 Lestock Wilson, Esq. p. 112. 
 
 You are no doubt aware that the staple articles of iron, 
 steel, copper, and lead, would generally, if not always, yield 
 a saving remittance to a very great extent ? 
 
 I certainly am aware of the contrary, from experience, 
 having sent copper and lost considerably by it. 
 
 Have you experienced the same loss upon iron, and steel, 
 and lead, as upon copper ? 
 
 No ; I do not know that I have. I have lost, as a com- 
 mander, upon the aggregate, by the outward-bound invest- 
 ment : some of those things ] may have gained by, and some 
 I may have lost by. 
 
 William Fairlic, Esq. p. 113-114. 
 
 To what do you ascribe the Calcutta market having been 
 io much more glutted during the last four years, with British 
 commodities ? 
 
 The very large quantities that have been lying on hand in 
 that market, and the extent of the investments of the Com- 
 pany's officers, and also the importation by India-built ships 
 returning from England. 
 
 Do any particular articles seem to you as likely to in- 
 crease ? 
 
 There are few or any articles, that I re ally kaow of, that the 
 common people would want; a few clothes might, perhaps, be 
 increased in tune, and some few European articles for erect-
 
 ing their houses, window glass, or hinges, but in a very small 
 degree. 
 
 You were of the house that Mr. Scott belonged to, and 
 corresponded with that house here ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 Were there efforts made by the house at home to encourage 
 the exportation of articles from Great Britain to your house 
 at Calcutta ? 
 
 There have been very large quantities of goods shipped by 
 them at different times to the house at Calcutta, many years 
 ago. 
 
 Were those shipments repeated for any length of time ? 
 
 They were repeated frequently ; when the India ships 
 came to this country with cargoes, there was a return cargo 
 provided for them all, of some extent, and of considerable 
 amount. 
 
 Did you find that that was sufficient to answer the purposes 
 of the demand in India, or more than sufficient ? 
 
 They were but a small proportion, of the goods we had, to 
 the general importation of goods into Calcutta ; but almost 
 universally a loss was left upon the goods which we imported. 
 
 How long has the house ceased to continue those exporta- 
 tions ? 
 
 I cannot exactly speak to the acts of the house here in 
 London, but in Calcutta we have discontinued them for live 
 or six years. 
 
 Was the cause of your discontinuing them, that they were 
 disadvantageous speculations, or have you any other cause to 
 assign ? 
 
 It was on that account, that they were generally attended 
 with loss, perhaps rive times out of six. 
 
 Can you give any information respecting the articles that 
 are manufactured at Calcutta for the consumption of the 
 European population there, such as shoes, boots, and sadlery : 
 
 There are a great many articles now manufactured in Cal- 
 cutta, that supply the place of those formerly imported from 
 this country; all kinds of leather, carpenters' work of every 
 description, furniture, plate, and a variety of articles in copper 
 and bras* ; carriages are made there, many of them made en- 
 tirely there, others from materials imported from this country: 
 few carriages that are imported from this country are com- 
 pletely finished here.
 
 8 
 
 Did those articles used to be sent from this country ? 
 
 Yes ; those have been chiefly since my residence hi Cal- 
 cutta. 
 
 The rise of those manufactures upon the spot, has been 
 since your residence at Calcutta ? 
 
 Yes, the greatest part of them. 
 
 Are those manufactures in sufficient perfection to induce 
 the British population there, of the higher order and rank, to 
 wear them and use them ? 
 
 They have their plate there, their mahogany furniture and 
 other articles made there, and by far the greatest part of them 
 use the leather manufactured there for shoes, and boots, and 
 harness ; buff leather for belts is made there. 
 
 Are those got so much cheaper there as to induce a prefer- 
 ence over those sent from this country ? 
 
 They are greatly cheaper. 
 
 Have you had occasion to observe whether the natives, who 
 hare been taught to manufacture and fabricate those articles, 
 have been adroit and expert in the performance of them ? 
 
 They are almost wholly manufactured by the natives ; one 
 European carpenter may perhaps employ fifty or a hundred 
 natives, with not an European among them ; the same with 
 the shoemakers, and also with plate : in fact there are not 
 many European tradesmen who work themselves ; tailors 
 there are, a few, but in comparison not one in fifty of the per- 
 sons that are employed are natives. 
 
 Are you acquainted with the price of labour or the wages 
 paid to those artisans 
 
 They receive, no doubt, according to their abilities, from 
 perhaps seven shillings and sixpence to twenty shillings or 
 twenty-five shillings, according to their expertness, a month ; 
 I cannot particularly speak to that point, but I do not think 
 that the wages exceed that. 
 
 Do you consider that during the period of your thirty years 
 residence in Calcutta, this introduction of manufacturing 
 British articles there for British consumption, has tended to 
 diminish the exportation of those articles from this country 
 considerably ? 
 
 I think a very considerable reduction has been made ; that 
 it has tended considerably to reduce them ; it is in proportion 
 to the quantity now wanted in that country ; there are per- 
 haps forty or fifty Europeans now iu the country, for one at
 
 the time when I first arrived there ; the general consumption 
 is great, but it is reduced in proportion by those country ma- 
 nufactures. 
 
 Colonel Thomas Munro, p. 124*. 
 
 Have you means of stating with accuracy the price 01 
 labour in the ceded districts of which you were superintend- 
 ant ? 
 
 I had the means, but I can only now speak from memory : 
 during my residence there, a great number of statistical tables 
 were drawn up by many of the most intelligent natives, con- 
 taining the price of labour and subsistence ; but those tables 
 not having brought with me to Europe, I can only recollect 
 the general result. 1 think that the average price of labour 
 in agriculture is about Ss. a month; 5s. I think is a high 
 average, some of the calculations made it as low as 4<i. none 
 above 6s. 
 
 is the price of labour you have stated more than adequate 
 to the subsistence of the labourers and of their families? 
 
 Not more than adequate to the subsistence of a labourer 
 and his family. Tables were also drawn up at the same time, 
 giving a general average of the annual price of the subsist- 
 ence of every class of individuals for a whole year. 1 can 
 only remember now the three principal branches in the first 
 class, containing about one-fourth of the population of a 
 country containing two millions of inhabitants : they made 
 the average per head 40s. the second class was 27s. this se- 
 cond class contained about half the population, or something 
 about one million; a third class, containing the remainder of 
 the population, the poorest class of people, was ]8s. per 
 head; this comprehended the whole expenditure of each indi- 
 vidual, for clothing, food, and every other article. 
 
 P. 125. Are not the Indians themselves ingenious in ma- 
 nufactures, and likely to supply themselves any demand they 
 may have for them ? 
 
 The natives of India are ingenious manufacturers, and 
 would be hkely to imitate any European manufactures for 
 which they had any particular use, and in a very short timt; 
 to carry it to such extent as to answer their own supply. 
 
 c
 
 10 
 
 Are not the natives of Hindostan very quick in learning 
 any manual operations, or any new arts they may find useful 
 to them \ 
 
 They are very quick in teaming all manual operations, and 
 all arts which they think will !>* useful to them. 
 
 Is not India full of merchants and dealers of every class 
 that are as intelligent and more economical than ours ? 
 
 India is full of merchants of every class, from the pedlar 
 up to the highest merchant; they pervade every part of the 
 country; there is no article for which there is the most trilling 
 demand, whether European or Indian, that is not soon carried 
 to the spot v. here the demand is, by the travelling merchants; 
 they have correspondents in every quarter upon the coast and 
 in the interior, and w here\ er they hear of a demand they take 
 care to supply it immediately. 
 
 P. 127. Does it not come within your knowledge, that 
 there are at the different presidencies British artisans and 
 manufacturers of almost e\eiv description of trade that is 
 exercised in this country : such as coachmakers, carpenters, 
 cabinetmakers, upholsterers, workers in the different metals, 
 workers in all kinds of tanned leather, tailors, and shoe- 
 makers ? 
 
 I believe that all the different artisans and manufacturers 
 enumerated in the question are to be found at Madras, and 
 that they will in time supply the European establishment in In- 
 dia with all those articles winch are now sent from Europe ; and 
 that in proportion to the number of those artisans established 
 there, the e.iport trade of this country tcill be diminished. 
 
 P. 154. You ha\e mentioned that the export trade from 
 India might be greatly increased, particularly m the article of 
 cotton; might not lion}) aii-o be raised in large quantities and of 
 the best quality, particularly in the Concan and Salselte .' 
 
 1 rom all the information I have acquired, I believe that 
 hemp might be raised m considerable quantity buth in Concan 
 and Scilxetle. 
 
 Might not coii'C. for cables and cordage become an advan- 
 tageous article of commerce from India to tins country." 
 
 There is plenty of the tree, on the Malabar coast, from 
 wluch the coire is produced ; but I do [not] know how far the 
 commerce might be advantageous. 1 can only speak of the 
 produce of the article; what the prolit would be, I cannot 
 say.
 
 n 
 
 Is it not much esteemed and often preferred lo European 
 cordage in India ? 
 
 I have understood that in many cases it k preferred to 
 European cordage, on account of its superior elasticity and 
 lightness. 
 
 Have not yon heard of ships having rode out gales with 
 coire cables, after parting from all the European ones ? 
 
 I cannot say that I have heard by what cables they rode 
 out the gale, but I have heard often of ships riding out very 
 strong gales with coire cables. 
 
 Is not coire much cheaper in India than European cordage? 
 
 It is cheaper, I believe. 
 
 Have you heard that a coire cable will not cost more than 
 one third of an European one of the same dimensions, and 
 that it will last three times as long * 
 
 I have heard that a coire cable is cheaper, and that it lasts 
 longer than an European one, but the relative prices of the 
 two I do not know exactly. 
 
 Do you imagine that anv possible reduction in the price of 
 freight of the imports of articles of British produce or manu- 
 facture, could aiford those articles to be sold in India at so 
 low a price as the same articles fit for use made there bv 
 British artisans and manufacturers through the means of na- 
 tive labourers ? 
 
 Those articles made in India by Europeans through the 
 means of Indian labourers will, I have no doubt, always un- 
 dersell any thing that can be brought from this country undt-r 
 any reduction of freight. 
 
 P. 156. Have not yn: understood that tin in any quantify 
 may be obtained from the island of Banda, and at a cheaper 
 price than the company art obliged to pay for that which they 
 export from this country r 
 
 I have heard that tin may be obtained from the island of 
 Banda, and likewise from other places to the euit : ,viiiJ ; ut a 
 much cheaper price than tiie ccmpuny uuw pay. 
 
 Sir Charles IV. Mukl, Bart. p. 217. 
 
 Are not the people of India a trading and manufacturing 
 people, that are fully adequate to supply their own mercan- 
 tile wants ?
 
 12 
 
 I conceive them to possess manufactures fully equal to the 
 supply of all their mercantile wauls. 
 
 Are they not quick in learning any European arts that they 
 find useful to them r 
 
 They are certainly extremely ingenious, docile, and indus- 
 trious, and quick in learning such European arts as they find 
 useful to them. 
 
 P. 2o4. Have you observed any considerable use made 
 by the natives of India of the metals of this country, such as 
 copper, iron, steel, <X.c.? 
 
 The natives of India certainly make great use of copper, 
 iron, and steel ; they have, abundance of iron in tlteir ovn 
 country] steel they likewise have, but in what proportion or 
 what quantity I cannot pretend to say; copper u> in universal 
 use amongst them, but whence it is procured I am not com- 
 petent to specify. 
 
 Have the goodness to .state in vhat part of India they 
 obtain their iron within themselves ? 
 
 There are very great iron zcorks in the north of India in 
 the neighbourhood of Gwallior ; it is now fifteen years since I 
 was in that part of the world, and 1 do not exactly recollect the 
 very spot where the mines are, but they were in the course of 
 my journey to the north of India, and were visited, and have 
 been in some measure described, by a gentleman of my suite. 
 
 Do not the natives of India use copper and brass vessels 
 for holding water, milk, and oil, and for other household pur- 
 poses : 
 
 They ccrt-ainly use copper and brass vessels for various do- 
 mestic purposes. 
 
 Alexander Falconnr, Esq. p. 263. 
 
 From your experitnce are you able to state whether the 
 natives of ludi i furnish a considerable demand for the com- 
 modities oi Lrrope : 
 
 The demand for the commodities of Europe is very small 
 amongst the natives of India. 
 
 Have you round that demand materially to increase of lat<? 
 ye T.S ? 
 
 i am not ware that it has increased : I apprehend it has 
 rather diminished of late vcars.
 
 13 
 
 P. 264. You have stated the price of labour to be greatly 
 less in India than in this country; do you mean to imply that 
 the comforts enjoyed by the labouring classes are likewise in 
 the same proportion? 
 
 By no means: their comforts are perhaps superior to the 
 comforts of the labouring classes in this country; they are 
 proportionate to their wishes and their wants. 
 
 From the cheapness of labour in India, would you infer 
 that the labouring classes are in a state of wretchedness ? 
 
 Certainly not. 
 
 Is it your judgment that the cheapness of Indian labour is 
 only proportionate to the cheapness of the means of subsist- 
 ence in that country, and to the voluntary simplicity of the 
 native habits \ 
 
 Precisely so. 
 
 In your judgment, is the simplicity of the modes of life 
 prevalent amongst the natives of India occasioned by circum- 
 stances in the nature of the climate ? 
 
 It is occasioned by physical and peculiar circumstances in 
 the climate, and the temperament of the people. 
 
 Do you apprehend that the countries of Europe can ever, 
 under any circumstances, be, on a great scale, manufacturing 
 countries for the bulk of the native Indian population? 
 
 I imagine uot. 
 
 To M hat causes would you ascribe it, that the commodities 
 of India can advantageously enter the markets of Europe; 
 and this against rival commodities brought from a much less 
 distance ? 
 
 To the extreme cheapness of labour in the manufacture of 
 Indian commodities. 
 
 Would not, therefore, a general advance in the price of In- 
 dian labour proportionally advance the cost of Indian com- 
 modities m the European markets I 
 
 Of course it would. 
 
 P. 271. Does it come to your knowledge that many, if 
 not most, of the articles for the use of the Europeans, formerly 
 brought from England, are now prepared at the presidencies 
 bv native workmen, under the direction and instruction of 
 .British artificers and artisans ? 
 
 The great proportion of those articles are now so prepared 
 at the presidency of Madras, by native artificers, under the 
 /superintendence of European foremen.
 
 14 
 
 What proportion of price may they bear to the same arti- 
 cles imported from Europe ? 
 
 I imagine from one half to one third of the European price. 
 
 Are carriages, and articles of tanned leather, and in the me- 
 tals, also prepared by the native workmen under British 
 artificers ? 
 
 All those articles are prepared by native workmen. 
 
 Are they at inferior prices ? 
 
 In comparative perfection, and on very moderate terms, by 
 the native workmen. 
 
 Thomas Cockburn, Esq. p. 2S1. 
 
 Looking to the degree of ingenuity vou have described, 
 their power of imitation, and the extreme disparity of wages 
 between thai country and this, docs it appear to vou that any 
 material accession of European artificers might or might not 
 tend, in a grent degree, to supersede the necessity of import 
 from this country? 
 
 Certainly it would have the effect, in proportion as India 
 manufactured for herself; so of course it \\oukl lessen the ne- 
 cessity of imports, from this country, of those articles which 
 they could manufacture. 
 
 The committee is lo understand you to be of opinion, that 
 fhe native manufactures of what are called European articles 
 would considerably increase r 
 
 The native manufacture of what are called European arti- 
 rles would increase, if the buyers could purchase them 
 cheaper from the native manufacturers, and found them more 
 durable than the European article. 
 
 Looking to the immense disproportion of the price of 
 labour, the expenses of freight, and the various charges of 
 merchandize, have you any doubt that they will be able to 
 manufacture ^o considerably cheaper as to produce that en- 
 couragement? 
 
 If the question refers to carriages, and articles of that 
 description used among Europeans, 1 have no doubt that the 
 artificers of India, under European direction, would be en- 
 abled completely to supply the market, if the article was 
 cheaper and more durable man what was imported from
 
 15 
 
 Europe : an I have already observed, I think they could make 
 them cheaper. 
 
 J3e pleased to state such articles as you think, so assisted, 
 and with such advantages, they could not manufacture ? 
 
 I really do not recollect : 1 could not specify them, there 
 are such innumerable articles. 
 
 Does any other article occur to you which they would not 
 be able to make ? 
 
 Iron they can make in any quantity that is desired, for they 
 have the best materials for so doing ; steel they make very 
 good. Copper is to Le found there, but not in great quantities, 
 at least where the mines have been tried they have not been 
 found very productive ; there may be many articles which, if 
 I had possession of an invoice of those articles that are used 
 by Europeans in India, I might be able to point out. Hats 
 they could not manufacture, unless instructed by Europeans; 
 if instructed by Europeans, there is plenty of hare skins and 
 rabbit skins to be found in the country, from which they might 
 make hats. For most of the articles which are for the con- 
 sumption of Europeans in the way of carriages, tiie materials 
 are to be found in India. But it is not in my power to state all 
 the articles which the natives are or are not competent to ma- 
 nufacture. The articles that are in general consumption in 
 India, for Europeans or other persons, are so universally 
 known by those that are concerned in the trade, that it will 
 be easy for persons in possession of that information to judge 
 what may or may not be manufactured by natives under 
 European superintendence. 
 
 Assisted by the advantages that have been described, the 
 natives of India either do, or in your opinion speedily will, at- 
 tain a capacity of making such, the materials for which may 
 be found in India ? 
 
 1 think their capacity is equal to the making of any thing 
 that materials can be found for : whether they will make it so 
 well, or so durable, or so much worth the money, as what is 
 made m Europe, is a quesikm I cannot answer, unless I made 
 a trial, and ascertained the fact. 
 
 P. 284. Speaking respecting copper aiul tin, you men- 
 tioned that the copper mines of Hiudostau hud produced 
 hitherto but little ? 
 
 Scarcely any thing lately; they have formerly been worked, 
 and the veins of them that were opened produced excellent
 
 16 
 
 copper, but they have not been tried to any extent probably 
 they may produce excellent copper. 
 
 Cannot copper and tin be brought to the coast of Bengal, 
 from the islands in the Indian Archipelago, easier and cheaper 
 by commercial people resident at the British ports than by 
 being imported from England ? 
 
 I am not acquainted with the trade in that quarter : I be- 
 lieve I could state the price of tin at Madras, I have a price 
 current in my pocket. The price of tin from the eastern 
 islands and the Malay coast, was, in the year 1SOI or 1H02, 
 3.5 star pagodas per candy of 500lbs. weight English. No 
 copper appears to have been imported from that quarter, nor 
 am I aware that any copper is to be found but in Japan, at 
 least none was known to me to be imported at Madras \\hen 
 I was there, and 1 never knew that description of copper im- 
 ported but in the Company's ships, and sometimes from 
 Batavia. 
 
 P. 287. It having been slated that iron was produced in 
 India, did you see or hear of any Indian iron exposed for 
 sale in the market ? 
 
 Kever having dealt in any articles of that kind, I really 
 never had an opportunity of seeing it in the market, or en- 
 deavouring to buy it; but I have heard of its being to be 
 bought, and it must be so, because the steel which is made 
 from it is produced in the i\Jysure country to a considerable 
 extent. 
 
 Is not the iron manufactured in India inferior in quality to 
 that imported from England ? 
 
 It is certainly as inferior to that imported from England at 
 present, as English iron was former!) to Swedish, when al- 
 most all the iron sent to India by the Company was Swedish; 
 now, happily for this country, English iron is manufactured 
 not only equal in quality, but, in some respects, better than 
 Swedish, and yet may be bought, 4 believe, many pounds 
 per ion cheaper; and is now, 1 believe, the only iron exported 
 by the Company to India. 
 
 Charles Butler, Esq. p. 28.9. 
 
 Though Europeans are not allowed to purchase land, arc 
 they not allowed in Bengal to hold land by leases to the extent 
 of about fifty begars ?
 
 17 
 
 They are ; and the same person is allowed to hold several 
 detached spots of fifty begars each. 
 
 P. 290. In consequence of this permission, have not Euro- 
 peans the means of building habitations and manufactories, 
 and holding them up in the country as permanent property ? 
 
 It is for the express purpose of enabling them to do that, 
 that they are allowed, I believe. 
 
 Are there not actually many Europeans settled up the 
 country in Bengal, upon property of this description, such as 
 indigo manufacturers, and others? 
 
 A considerable number ; I before stated two or three, but 
 I would wish to say, that we were in the habit of sending up 
 every board-day at least one application for holding land to 
 that extent. 
 
 P. 292. Are there not tradesmen at Calcutta of all descrip- 
 tions, such as coachmakers, cabinetmakers, upholsterers, 
 workers in metals, persons employed in easting or making 
 glass bottles, tanning leather, making accoutrements, harness, 
 and all articles for which tanned leather is wanted, shoemakers 
 and taylors ? 
 
 I believe, generally, there are all those that have been 
 described. 
 
 Is not the consequence of that, that those articles are fur- 
 nished through the native labourers, under British artificers, 
 in a state fit for use, and at a much inferior price to what they 
 can be imported from Europe ? 
 
 Certainly. 
 
 Has not the consequence of this been, to have already les- 
 sened exceedingly the importation of those articles that for- 
 merly obtained vend at Calcutta ? 
 
 In most instances, I conceive, if not in all. 
 
 Do you conceive it probable, from the accounts that have 
 been given of the aptness of the natives, and their ingenuity in 
 learning all mechanical arts, that the progress of that musi be 
 their improvement in the making of every thing of which the 
 materials are found in India, and of course that in time the 
 import to India of British articles may most materially de- 
 cline ? 
 
 I should think that they might materially decline, but I do 
 not conceive they will ever arrive at that great state of per- 
 fection in which many manufactures are canied on in Eng- 
 land. I particularly apply that to European gentlemen who 
 are nice about their carriages, and other articles which may 
 
 ft
 
 18 
 
 be supplied in India, but which they would still prefer having 
 from England. 
 
 Applying it to the articles more commonly in use there, 
 such as those made by shoemakers, tailors, workers in iron 
 and in steel, and in the tanning leather accoutrements, and 
 harness of all kinds ? 
 
 I should conceive they would considerably decline. 
 
 Does it come in your way to know whether copper and tin 
 may not be and are not brought to Calcutta, from the islands 
 in the Indian Archipelago, easier and cheaper by the com- 
 mercial people residing at the settlement, than they can be 
 imported from England ? 
 
 I have no other means of knowledge than what every gen- 
 tleman has here from reading on the subject. 
 
 John Stracey, Esq. p. 296. 
 
 In your judgment may the natives of India be described a. 
 both an agricultural and a manufacturing people? 
 
 Most undoubtedly. 
 
 In both characters do they not work far more cheaply than 
 the natives of this country or of Europe in general : 
 
 There is no comparison ; every thing is much cheaper, the 
 articles of clothing and other articles, and their labour is much 
 cheaper; that varied of course in different parts in which I 
 was situated ; 1 think in the Dacca province it did not amount 
 to more than Vs. 6d. or 3s. t)d. per month, in Behar to about 
 55. and at Cawnpore to about Is. 6d. 
 
 Thomas Sydenham, Esq. p. 317. 
 
 Do you not conceive, that in the districts in which you have- 
 resided the natives would prefer British manufactures, equally 
 suited to their own use, if cheaper than those articles they 
 themselves manufacture ? 
 
 I believe that if goods of British manufacture could be 
 carried into India cheaper than those which are produced in 
 India, many natives would prefer them, but 1 really am not 
 prepared to say whether the great bulk of the inhabitants- 
 would not prefer their own manufactures to those of any 
 fortij.i) country, even supposing the others could be procured 
 at a. cheaper rate and equally suited to their consumption ; it
 
 19 
 
 must be considered that a great number of the inhabitants are 
 employed in those manufactures, and gain their livelihood by 
 those manufactures ; and this consideration alone would induce 
 most people to give the preference to their own manufactures, 
 even if they could procure other articles equally suited to 
 their consumption at rather a cheaper rate. 
 
 Do you think these patriotic motives would operate upon 
 the great mass of the district to which you allude ? 
 
 I think those motives would naturally operate in a great 
 degree as long as the price of the foreign goods was not con- 
 siderably less than their own manufactures ; if the price should 
 fall considerably, I confess, in that case, it is probable that 
 the natives would prefer a thing much cheaper provided it 
 was equally good. 
 
 John Woolmore, Esq. p. 324. 
 
 State to the committee what articles of British manufacture 
 you found it possible to vend for the purposes of native con- 
 sumption ? 
 
 I must observe to the committee a circumstance attaching 
 to myself, that I have no documents, and therefore it is com- 
 pletely from my recollection, I speak; for all the documents I 
 had, of great consequence to myself, were completely lost by a 
 change of house, which I did not know for a considerable time, 
 and could never recover them. The principal articles in the 
 East India coasting trade to the Eastern Islands, consisted of 
 a small quantity of iron, of a small quantity of steel, I may say 
 a general small assortment of cutlery; I think I had a little 
 gold thread for the Malays to work into their cloths, and 
 some few pieces of fancy cloths, merely for experiment; 
 those, I think, coloured on both sides, blue and white, and 
 blue and red, or both. 
 
 During that time were the natives, such as you are now re- 
 ferring to, fully and amply supplied with such European com- 
 modities as they might have occasion for ? 
 
 They appeared to me not generally to want European com- 
 modities ; iron, I did not sell the whole which I had, which was a 
 very small quantity ; the finer cutlery I gave away to the superior 
 women, such as scissars and knives, and things of that kind, not 
 being generally saleable; the common Lascar knives, and some 
 brass wire, were at that time the only articles that were gene-
 
 20 
 
 rally saleable upon the west coast of Borneo or the coast of 
 Malay, during the four years I navigated there ; some of the 
 iron I know 1 carried to China ; with respect to the steel, I 
 perfectly recollect the Rajah of Succadana, on the western 
 coast of Borneo, telling me, that the steel of Banjarmasseeu 
 avrs considerably better than that zchich came from Europe, 
 and which I had purchased at Bengal. The general carpenters' 
 utensils which are used on the coast of Malay, are principally 
 of Chinese manufacture, 
 
 Did it appear to you that there was a capability of increas- 
 ing the export of British manufactures to those ports, beyond 
 what it was in the power of the ordinary country ships to 
 supply ? 
 
 Certainly I think not ; I do not at this moment, with all the 
 informaiion that [ conceive I possess myself, as well as that 
 which 1 have collected from contemporaries that have been in 
 that country, who were in the service with me, know any 
 amount of cargo that I could take from this country going to 
 the Eastern Islands, exclusive of money, that I could really 
 produce any thing for on that coast. 
 
 If now you were about to freight a vessel to India, except 
 money, you would not adventure any European commodities 
 to those ports ? 
 
 If I was going myself to that coast now, from this country, 
 there is not three thousand pounds worth of articles that I 
 could take there, in my idea, to produce any return whatever, 
 exclusive of money. 
 
 An far us your experience has gone, was every endeavour 
 made to export every article of European manufacture to 
 those ports : 
 
 My navigation was from India; every article of European 
 produce that 1 could possibly conceive could produce me a 
 profit upon those coasts, 1 certainly did take from that coast. 
 1 took many things upon trial, because 1 had an inclination so 
 to do, and 1 had a third of the ship and cargo, the other two 
 thirds were held by two gentlemen, whose constant observa- 
 tion to me was to try by every means in my power to see 
 what articles of trade could yitld profit, whether from India 
 or from Europe. 
 
 Did you make repeated voyages to those ports ? 
 F was four years in that trade. 1 made four voyages from 
 1783 to 11S7 j I sailed from Bengal one year in April, I re-
 
 turned again in January ; the next year I sailed about the same 
 time again, and returned in December : the voyages were all 
 similar as to their close. I was more or less employed accord- 
 ing to the sale of my cargo on that coast. 
 
 Of what might your latter cargoes have consisted ? 
 
 The last cargo consisted of saltpetre, a very large quantity 
 of opium, say 300 chests, I think two lacks of rupees in specie, 
 a small quantity of iron, a small quantity of steel, some brim- 
 stone for making powder, and two thousand pounds worth 
 (out of a cargo of 60, 10, or 80,000^.) of assorted piece goods. 
 
 The production of India ? 
 
 Yes; India manufactures entirely. 
 
 That was an outline of the cargo? 
 
 That was the great leading feature of the cargo, except 
 some trifling cutlery, as I have observed before. 
 
 After your first voyage of experiment to those seas, did 
 you find the vend for British manufactures progressively 
 increase, or otherwise? 
 
 It rather decreased than otherwise, in the articles I am 
 speaking of, iron and steel, and cutlery, because it did not 
 produce any material profit. 
 
 You purchased block tin at Banca? 
 
 I advanced money for tin, to a Malay trader that was 
 collecting it, at the rate of 12 dollars per pecul, taking 
 the tin to China, selling it, and beina: paid for my trou- 
 ble. 
 
 Does not Banca abound with good tin? 
 
 I should think so; great plenty has been found there: 
 most of the tin I have collected on the different coasts of 
 Malay has originally come from Banca. 
 
 Supposing yourself a regular merchant in India, and 
 wanting an article of tin, would you send to Banca for it, 
 or obtain it from this country? 
 
 Certainly, I should send to Banca. 
 
 Do you regard the tin of Banca as being as good as 
 that produced by the mines of this country? 
 
 I am not aware what the Chinese think of our tin, as 
 compared with the Banca tin. I carried out, I believe, 
 the first tin from Cornwall, in an East India ship, to 
 China; at that time they preferred the Banca tin. At that 
 time, 1788, it was more malleable than the Cornwall tin: it is 
 certainly infinitely cheaper. 
 
 Looking to the original cost of the article, and to the
 
 22 
 
 respective charges of merchandize, is there a material dif- 
 fer* nee in the price? 
 
 I do not exactly know the price of British tin at this 
 moment, but I knew the price of the tin at Banca, at that 
 time, very well, and I can calculate it at a moment: the 
 Banca tin was from 4()/. to 5 1/, a ton; 5 1/. I considered 
 a high price; I have hought tin with money at 12 dollars 
 a pecul at Rhio. I have exchanged goods for it at the 
 Ports of Rhio, and at the Port of Borneo, at Salengur, in 
 the Straits of Malacca, at. Trengenna, and on the west 
 coast of Malay. I received tin at those places, after sell- 
 ing my goods, generally at from 14-, never exceeding 16 
 dollars a pecul. I have sold my opium and my piece 
 goods, and have taken, in exchange, a return of tin, pep- 
 per, and gold dust, at different prices, valuing tin at 15 
 and 1(3 dollars a pecul. 1 have purchased tin specifically 
 \vith money at 12 dollars a pecul. 
 
 At those different places? 
 
 !No, not at all those places; only at Rhio; at the island 
 of Bintang, the pecul is 133 English pounds and a third, 
 reckoning about IS peculs to a ton. 
 
 About what would English tin have cost you at that 
 time in India? 
 
 I think the price was, when I went to India next after 
 that, from 70/. to 75/. a ton, but never having bought any 
 myself I speak only from a recollection of the invoice. 
 
 What would each be per ton? 
 
 I make the Banca G8/. per ton, and the English from 
 70/. to 75/. that is taking the Banca at the price at which 
 I exchanged my goods. 
 
 What would it be at the money price r 
 
 From 52/. to 531. per ton. 
 
 If the East India Company had not been desirous of ex- 
 porting British tin, or had no influence or contract so to 
 do, could they not have obtained the article much cheaper 
 at Banca r 
 
 I suppose they could. 
 
 P. 335. Inform the committee about what quantity 
 of tin, means were found to smuggle from Banca, while 
 it lay under the Dutch coercion ? 
 
 I should think, the last year that I had an opportunity 
 of forming any judgment, nearly 500 tons.
 
 23 
 
 Can you give any probable opinion of what might be 
 the quantity which might be got from Banca, the Dutch 
 coercion being removed? 
 
 Looking at what the Dutch ships brought to China, 
 with what the country ships, in the trade in which I was, 
 and the Chinese junks, which collected it from the same 
 source, I should think that there went to China altogether, 
 about twelve, thirteen, or fourteen hundred tons of tin from 
 the different sources ; and I should think, the greater quan- 
 tity come from Palimbam and Banca: There are places in 
 which small quantities of tin on the Malay coast are got, 
 which do not. come from Banca, called Perhaing. 
 
 What quantity do you conceive might be now obtained 
 from Banca? 
 
 I can form an opinion only from what the Chinese 
 junks collected, what we collected, and what the Dutch 
 government collected, which may be Jrom 1000 to 1200 
 tons or more, 
 
 Are you acquainted with the fact, whether copper mav 
 not be got from Japan, cheaper than it can be imported 
 from England ? 
 
 I really do not know; I know nothing of the Japan 
 trade; I have seen Japan copper, but I do not know any- 
 thing about its price. 
 
 P. 337. Do you know that private merchants can send 
 their ships to sea, for an Indian voyage, fitted in such a 
 way as they deem perfectly safe, for about 18/. or 20/. per 
 ton, at present? 
 
 No, I do not ; I should not think it possible, consistently 
 with my ideas of propriety of sailing; 1 can only speak to 
 that. 
 
 Not from any port in this kingdom? 
 I should think not, according to my ideas of the price 
 of building, taking the question to relate to a voyage to 
 India and back again. 
 
 The voyage alluded to, is such as you have described in 
 a former part of your evidence, of the probable duration 
 of about 12 or 13 months? 
 
 I should not think, consistently with my ideas of the 
 propriety of fitting, and the substantiality of a ship going 
 to India, that there is any port in the kingdom that could 
 really send a ship to sea, with the present prices of build- 
 ing and stores,^or that sum.
 
 24 
 
 Have you ever been employed in building or fitting out 
 ships at any other port, except that of India? 
 
 No, I have not; I bought a Liverpool ship once, but I 
 have had no experience of the outfit of ships at the gene- 
 ral ports of the kingdom. I only judge from the prices 
 which I have enquired of, respecting cordage in particular, 
 and I did not find the prices at South Shields at that time, 
 at Liverpool, and I think I applied at Greenock, were such 
 as would warrant my saying, that I thought 1 could fit out 
 a ship so cheap : it is only by that comparison, I can judge. 
 I was in difficulty to get cordage in London; I wrote to 
 Shields. I had, during my employment of ships, a great 
 quantity of cordage from South Shields, from Mr. Wal- 
 ker: the prices, after being delivered to me in London, and 
 the difference of prices here, I think amounted to two or 
 three pounds a ton, not more; that to an 800 ton ship 
 would be 1601. 
 
 Then the committee is to understand you have no 
 practical knowledge of the expenses of building and fitting 
 out ships at the outports? 
 
 None. I since recollect building a ship at Ipswich, at 
 about 2/. 10s. cheaper than London. 
 
 Thomas Sydenham, Esq. p. 357. 
 
 May it not be naturally expected, from the ingenuity of 
 the natives of India, and their application to every thing 
 by which they may make a profit, that they will arrive at 
 such a knowledge and perfection in those handicrafts 
 which are there practised, as to make all those articles on 
 their own account; and by underselling the British artifi- 
 cers, whose mode of living is so much more expensive, 
 and who, having come to India to make their fortunes, 
 will not sell those articles at so small a profit, drive them 
 out of the country? 
 
 I think it would be at least a considerable period before 
 the natives can set up manufactures or handicraft, that 
 will rival or become superior to those established and car- 
 ried on by Europeans; but it is certainly probable, that in 
 the course of time, the natives will arrive at such perfec- 
 tion in ii.any of those trades, as not to render it worth the 
 while oi' European workmen to remain in India. Certain-
 
 25 
 
 ly, not as the source of wealth, to be carried back to Eng-* 
 land, but probably as sufficient to induce them to remain 
 altogether in India, for the purpose of carrying on their 
 trade in India, rather than in England. 
 
 Having informed the committee that the workmen of 
 the country are so apt, and so ingenious, and that there 
 are some natives that have capital, will not those natives 
 who look after profit, set up those trades which have been 
 learnt by the other artificers, and probably execute that 
 purpose in a short time, and materially diminish, and ulti- 
 mately put an end to, the import of most of the articles 
 from England, of which the materials are found there? 
 
 I believe that it will be a considerable period before any 
 native workmen can be made equal to the European work- 
 men. In many cases, it is found cheaper to employ an 
 European workman, although his wages are considerably 
 greater than those of a native, partly on account of his 
 possessing his trade better, and partly because the robust- 
 ness of their frame enables them to go through a great 
 deal more work than can be expected from any native. I 
 also think, that in cases when an European and a native 
 have sufficient capital to employ in any of those trades, 
 that the European, from his superior science, ingenuity, 
 and industry, will generally get the better of the native. 
 There are some trades, particularly those in steel and in iron, 
 which, I believe, in consequence of the climate, can never, 
 in India, reach that degree of perfection which they have 
 reached in this country: such I know to be the opinion of 
 the officers of artillery, employed in the ordnance depart- 
 ment, and the same as to the coachmakers at Madras and 
 Calcutta. 
 
 You make that distinction, that those handicraft trades 
 that require great strength of muscle, such as working in 
 forges, may not be carried to that perfection in India, 
 by native workmen ; but all others, that do not require that 
 robust frame, and that require only ingenuity, application, 
 and sobriety, which it is understood you have attributed 
 to the natives superior to the British, may it not be ex- 
 pected in consequence of that, that the importation of 
 such articles may materially decrease ? 
 
 Although I am willing to allow that the natives of In- 
 dia are superior to the Europeans in sobriety, I do not re- 
 
 E
 
 20 
 
 Collect To have stated that they were superior in industry 
 and ingenuity. It must also be recollected, that although 
 the natives of India are ingenious, in imitating any thing 
 that is placed before them, they are generally incapable of 
 making those improvements in the several branches of 
 handicraft trade, that appears to be always in a progres- 
 sive state of improvement in England. Some improve- 
 ments may originate in India from the European trades- 
 people; and such as have taken place in the mother country 
 will be immediately followed by European artizans in In- 
 ciia, of course those improvements will gradually and slow- 
 ly find their way among the natives; bnt, as they will 
 commence among the Europeans in India, this cause ap- 
 pears to me sufficient to secure to the European artizana 
 in India, uniform superiority over the natives employed in 
 similar trades. 
 
 Must not those natives, who are em ployed under those 
 British artizans, learn all those improvements, whatever 
 they may be, that are exercised by those British artizans: 
 those now in use, and those that may hereafter be brought 
 from Europe ? 
 
 As long as the natives continue to be employed by the 
 Europeans, they will certainly adopt the improvements 
 that may be made in any of the trades. But the question 
 which has been put to me, rather refers to natives setting 
 up establishments of this kind, with their own capital, and 
 not employed as journeymen by European masters. 
 
 The questions refer to those natives who have learned the 
 improvements at present in use in India, and who will natu- 
 rally learn whatever other improvements are introduced. 
 Will not natives who have capital, employ other natives, 
 who have learnt all those improvements, and will they not 
 be able to make all those articles so much cheaper, as to 
 undersell the English.' 
 
 I believe, that in almost all cases, the native workmen 
 would prefer being employed bv European masters, than 
 by natives, partly because they will be more regularly paid, 
 and partly because they would have the means of learning 
 their trade sooner and better than under native masters. 
 
 P. 3C4. Would not those articles be used in greater 
 quantities, if greater wealth was more generally diffused 
 iimong the natives of that country?
 
 17 
 
 It appeared to me that the natives of India were not In. 
 V.ant of any of those articles: they had no difficulty in 
 supplying themselves with whatever they might require, 
 for domestic or other purposes, and therefore I do not see 
 bow the increase of their wealth would lead to the employ- 
 ment of more articles of a similar description, conceiving 
 that those articles are not so much articles of lux my, on 
 which wealth is generally expended, as articles of common 
 and immediate use. 
 
 P. 365. Do the natives of India work in steel, or at all 
 events but very indifferently? 
 
 AH their manufactures in steel which I have seen, ap- 
 peared to me to be very imperfect, excepting the swords, 
 which are made in the Deccan, and in the north part of 
 India, and which, I believe, in temper and other property 
 are equal to the best swords made in any part of the 
 world. 
 
 Are not various steel articles in use among the natives, 
 besides swords, and are not those imported.? 
 
 The only articles of steel in use in India, besides swords, 
 which occur to me at present, are knives and scissars, 
 which are generally imported from England, being very 
 superior to those manufactured in India. 
 
 Robert Morris, Esq. p. 373. 
 
 Have you any acquaintance in regard to the principal 
 settlements, Madras and Calcutta, as to the state of the 
 progress of British articles manufactured there, under Bri- 
 tish artificers, and by native labourers? 
 
 At Calcutta, in particular, there are a variety of articles 
 which they manufacture extremely well: all articles in 
 leather, furniture, plate, carriages of all kinds, and uphol- 
 stery goods : those are the principal. 
 
 Many articles of metals? 
 
 [ do not think they work so much in the metals, except 
 gold and silver, not the common metals. 
 
 According to your observation, has the import of those 
 articles now made there, and which they formerly imported 
 from Britain, very much declined ? 
 
 It has very much decreased certainly, particularly shoes, 
 boots, carriages, and canvas, and a variety of other*.
 
 Do you think that, gradually, that may most mate- 
 rially affect the trade in those articles from Great Bri- 
 tain i* 
 
 I think the manufacture of those articles will increase 
 considerably in India, and consequently affect the trade 
 from this country. 
 
 William Daries, Esq. p. 382. 
 
 Can you inform the committee, whether the natives of 
 India are in a progressive and apparently increasing dis- 
 position to manufacture, among themselves, such articles 
 as have been usually exported from this country, of Bri- 
 tish manufactures? 
 
 I know that the natives of India possess sufficient ta- 
 lent, if properly directed, to manufacture many of the 
 things that the Europeans require in that country, or that 
 the higher class of the natives of the country may be in- 
 clined to purchase; such as carriages, leather of all sorts 
 for the army, boots, and shoes, I think nearly as good as 
 Hoby's; watches; I believe they do not make the inside 
 of the watch, but I know they put them together there, 
 and cabinet ware also; and I know no reason why, if pro- 
 perly directed, the talents of the Hindoo or the Mahome- 
 tan, may not become as useful in the making of all the re- 
 quisites there, as any mechanic in this country; 1 need 
 not add, that the price of labour must operate power- 
 fully. 
 
 According to your experience and observation, has this 
 disposition and faculty been increasing, or otherwise? 
 
 It has been increasing, since I first knew India, consider- 
 ably. 
 
 Assuming that under an open trade, access to every de- 
 scription of British subjects would be given to India, in- 
 clud.ng artificers of various descriptions, and looking to 
 the immense disproportion in the price of labour between 
 that country and this, are you of opinion that this dispo- 
 sition to manufacture what are called European or British 
 articles, may increase to such a degree as materially and 
 seriously to supersede the necessity of importation into 
 India of such articles ?
 
 29 
 
 I have of late perceived, on the part of the traders of the 
 City of London, what I consider too great an inclination 
 to become merchants; and I do believe that there are 
 many of them, and many of the mechanics, who, if they 
 had the power of establishing an agent in India, would 
 consign some goods to him, and send out some raw ma- 
 terials for him to manage there; and, in consequence of the 
 low price of labour in India, they might get them wrought 
 up so as to undersell any tiling exported from this coun- 
 try. 
 
 Under the circumstances of an open trade, and unli- 
 mited access to some or all of the ports in India, do 
 you apprehend that such a course of things would take 
 place ? 
 
 That must be matter of opinion, but I am decidedly of 
 opinion that it would tend to that effect. 
 
 P. 389. Are you sufficiently acquainted with the produce 
 of the islands in those seas, to know whether any quantity 
 of tin might not be procured from Banca, at a considerably 
 lower rate than it could be imported from Great Britain ? 
 
 Yes ; I believe large quantities of tin may be obtained at 
 Banca, and carried to China, so as to undersell that sent from 
 Great Britain. 
 
 Has the rate of freight been of late years increased ? 
 
 For the last three years I have not made any shipment to 
 India as a merchant, therefore I am not very well informed 
 upon that point ; but I believe that it has not very much 
 varied. 
 
 Did any increase take place subsequent to the year 1800, 
 down to the last period at which you traded ? 
 
 I have generally preferred shipping my goods [in] the 
 regular ships, on account of their safety, and the rate of in- 
 surance being so much lower ; and I think the price, generally 
 speaking, has been about 10/. per ton. The Company, in 
 their extra ships, allow freight upon lower terms : the regu- 
 lar ships are the 800 ton ships, which are manned, armed, 
 and fitted in a superior manner to what the extra ships are ; 
 the difference between the two is, I believe, about 2/. per 
 ton the outward freight. 
 
 What is the difference in the rate of insurance upon a 
 regular and an extra ship ? 
 
 The regular ship is insured with great facility, out and 
 home at 12 per cent. I believe there are some brokers in
 
 so 
 
 Lloyd's coffee-house, who having good business to do, get 
 the extra ships insured at the same rate : but in my opinion 
 there is a considerable distinction , their being enabled to do 
 so, I attribute to the eagerness of speculation , but as an 
 underwriter myself, I should consider the risk nearly 3 or 4 
 per cent, more, being, as we are, at war with America. 
 
 You are an underwriter yourself? 
 
 I am. 
 
 P. 391. In your judgment, the difference at which yon 
 would underwrite one of the Company's regular, and one of 
 the Company's extra ships, would amount to between -4J and 
 4 per cent ? 
 
 In my judgment there is that difference of risk at this 
 present time. 
 
 During the period alluded to by you, have there not, to 
 your knowledge, been very considerable exports of British 
 manufactures in Indian-built shipping ? 
 
 There have : the terms of freight have been lower than 
 the terms on which it could be obtained at the East India 
 House ; and I have shipped myself to a very considerable 
 amount in East India ships I have shipped as low as 4/. 
 per ton. 
 
 Is not the owner of a ship returning to India, obtaining a 
 freight of 4/. or 5/. per ton, very well satisfied with it, con- 
 sidering it as so much additional gain, if any gain has been 
 derived from the speculation on the homeward-bound vov- 
 agc? 
 
 I presume that the proprietor of an Indian-built ship 
 would be satisfied with 4/. or ;>/. per ton, provided he could 
 fill his ship ; but I understand that to be a very difficult 
 matter. I understand it to be very difficult at this time to 
 obtain any freight upon any terms. 
 
 Therefore any thing that a ship returning to India can 
 obtain in the way of freight is very desirable ? 
 
 Of course it is a matter of profit, and no injury whatever 
 to the ship. 
 
 P. 393. You have before said you would not insure pri- 
 vate ships at any rate ? 
 
 I would not. 
 
 Do you mean to say by that, you should not consider 
 private ships insurable by a private underwriter, or that they 
 would not be within the scope you have prescribed to your- 
 self as an underwriter ? 
 
 I consider that all ships, at certain premium';, are insurable
 
 31 
 
 by respectable underwriters ; but they are a class of ship* 
 that would not come within my scope of underwriting. 
 
 You speak of the ships you suppose may be sent out here- 
 after ? 
 
 I am speaking of the ships that I presume may hereafter 
 be fitted out from the different outports. 
 
 If those ships fitted out from the outports were equally 
 good with the Indian-built ships, would you decline insuring 
 them ; would you insure the one and not the other ? 
 
 I should not make that distinction : if I insured the one, 
 the probability is I should insure the other, making a pro- 
 portionable difference for the goodness of the ship. 
 
 Would you expect, supposing you were inclined to em- 
 bark in such underwriting, a considerable advance of pre- 
 mium ? 
 
 I really should. 
 
 Taking into consideration freight and insurance, at what 
 difference per cent, do you apprehend that, by the ships 
 proposed to be admitted into the trade to India, goods could 
 be exported, compared with the rate per cent, at which they 
 .ire now exported, on the extra ships of the Company ? 
 
 It is really my opinion, that it would be impossible for 
 iny individual to export on lower terms than the freights 
 that the Company now obtain ships at. I have, as I stated 
 before, a ship of my own that was in the West India service; 
 I bought her for ready money, upon low terms ; I fitted her 
 out as cheaply as I believe any other merchant in London 
 could have fitted her out, and at an advanced rate of freight 
 Jo that which I now obtain from the East India Company ; 
 she was unproductive of profit. I am not only the carrier of 
 those goods for the Company, but I am the protector of 
 those goods from injury, which frequently makes a consider- 
 able difference in the freight. 
 
 Is the committee to understand that the rate per cent, at 
 which goods could be exported in the private ships proposed 
 ro be admitted to the India trade, would not be less than the 
 rate at which they may now be exported, taking freight and 
 insurance together in the Company's ships ? 
 
 I must beg leave to answer that question by first stating, 
 lhat though the ship owner may be a loser upon the freight 
 .it which he may let his ship to the East India Company, the 
 ast India Company may, for what I know to the contrary, 
 Charge such a freight to the public that the East India Com-
 
 32 
 
 pany could not be losers ; but I am of opinion, that the East 
 India Company have this last year obtained ships at such a 
 rate of freight, that it is not desirable either for them or the 
 public that they should get them Liver, or so loiu. 
 
 Practically in point of fact, if a man had to choose at this 
 moment, whether he would send out his goods in one of the 
 Liverpool or Bristol ships, or in one of the Company's extra 
 ships, would the rate of freight and insurance to which he 
 would be subject, in the first place in the private ship, and 
 in the second on the Company's ship, vary, and to what 
 degree ? 
 
 That is a matter of calculation. I believe the Company 
 charge to the public 87. per ton. I believe they are not 
 gainers by the freight that they let to the public. I have 
 been informed, and I believe accurately informed, that their 
 loss upon ships that they have freighted from individuals, and 
 re-let to the public, between the year 1795 and the year 1810, 
 has amounted to 4-44,293/. I think no Liverpool, Hull, or 
 Bristol merchant, could export goods to India cheaper, tak- 
 ing insurance and every thing into consideration, than he 
 may at this time through the Company. 
 
 In what way do you suppose the ship owners to be ulti- 
 mately indemnified for these tenders, at rates apparently 
 losing ? 
 
 They are not indemnified ; they are losers. 
 
 How come those tenders to go on ? 
 
 Because the ship owner having got his ship into that line 
 of service, has of late found a difficulty in getting any other 
 employ for it; and there may be other inducements of a 
 nobler nature, such as serving young men who have been 
 patronised by the ship's husband. The captain of my ship 
 happens to be a Welchman, and on that account, as a country- 
 man of mine, I have made up my mind to make a consider- 
 able sacrifice for his benefit. 
 
 Then this is in the nature of a bonus bestowed for acquir- 
 ing the command of those ships ? 
 
 It is a bonus bestowed. 
 
 You understand it to be worth while for an owner who 
 wishes to serve a captain, to lose a certain sum of money 
 to place that captain in the command of a Company's 
 
 ip ? 
 
 t\ T o, I do nor understand it to be worth while to do so j but
 
 33 
 
 an owner having placed a young man once in the command 
 of a ship, he, in consequence of attaining that situation, 
 having married an amiable woman, and got a family, the 
 owner afterwards may feel disposed to sacrifice a sum of 
 money for the benefit of that family, and keeping the young 
 man in a situation he has filled with credit to himself and 
 service to his country : such were my feelings when I made 
 an offer of this ship, 011 a second voyage, to the East India 
 Company. Myself and partner are proprietors of twelve- 
 sixteenths of that ship, as we are of what other ships we have, 
 except one, and in that we have eleven. I have a great 
 respect for some of the captains that have served us, and I 
 should be extremely sorry to see a man lowered from the 
 situation that I had been the means of placing him in, and 
 leading his family to expect he for years would continue in. 
 When I first bought this ship, it was in the hope of gain : the 
 freights were better then, and I did hope they would increase, 
 instead of which they have fallen oif. 
 
 Do you think it possible, as a merchant, this system can 
 go on long ? 
 
 I am of opinion that the system of the East India Com- 
 pany obtaining freights on the very low terms they do at 
 present, cannot last long, because I presume no man would 
 keep his ship in that employ longer than until he could find 
 a more profitable one for her. 
 
 Do not the Company take up their ships by public con- 
 tract at the lowest bidding ? 
 
 The executive body of the Company act in the most 
 correct and honourable way ; the fault is not with them, it 
 is the competition) it is the ivant of employment in other sei'vices. 
 A merchant says it is better that I should gain 20,000/. by 
 my ship, though that will not remunerate me, than that 
 should not gain any thing for twelve months, or that I should 
 embark her in a service where I shall only gain 1 5,000/. 
 
 In general, when a ship is engaged to the Company, is 
 she not engaged for six voyages, extending probably 15 
 years, so that once having made an engagement they cannot 
 alter it ? 
 
 I have built two ships for the Company ; my contract 
 prior to the keel of those two ships being laid, was for an 
 engagement of six voyages ; but the ship I have been last 
 speaking of was engaged for one voyage only ; but in gene- 
 ral the contract is for six voyages, and the only terms on
 
 34 
 
 which I could be tempted to come into any engagement 
 with the East India Company again as a ship owner. 
 
 P. 398. Do you know the rate at which India-built 
 ships have brought home cargoes from Bengal ? 
 
 I am not well informed ? 
 
 Have the goodness to explain the ground upon which the 
 ship of 1200 tons belonging to you, now on her way home 
 from Bombay, is not allowed any thing on the score of war 
 contingencies ? 
 
 My original contract with the East India Company was, that 
 / should build a ship at Bombay, and bring her to England on 
 my own account ; and, that after her arrival in England, she 
 should perform six voyages to and from India, for the East 
 India Company. Not deeming it prudent to import into 
 this country 14 or 1500 tons of such goods as I could pur- 
 chase at Bombay, I made an offer to the East India Company, 
 to bring them a cargo of teas home from China, upon lovr 
 terms, conditionally, that I were permitted to have the ad- 
 vantage of freighting that ship on my own account from 
 Bombay to China. 
 
 What is the freight you received from China to England' 
 on the teas ? 
 
 Sixteen guineas per ton upon all she can bring home, the 
 Company engaging on their part to pay certain expences at 
 Canton, which will amount, I presume, to fourteen or fifteen 
 hundred pounds. 
 
 W. Stanley Clarke, Esq. p. 402. 
 
 Do you know any thing of the island of Banca, and its 
 produce ? 
 
 The produce of Banca is principally tin. 
 
 Do you know whether the island of Banca produces tin 
 in any considerable quantities ? 
 
 I understand it to do so. 
 
 Have you the means of information whether that tin is 
 easily obtained from the mines in the island of Banca ? 
 
 I apprehend it to be so ; but I never visited Banca myself. 
 
 Have you heard whether that tin is smelted easily or with 
 difficulty ? 
 
 I have heard easily 5 but I speak from general information. 
 
 Have you heard that the Chinese have in a very great de~
 
 35 
 
 gree been supplied with tin through the Dutch, from the 
 island of Banca ? 
 
 Yes, in former times. 
 
 Do you know whether the eastern islands produce iron ? 
 
 I am told they do, some of them. 
 
 Do you know whether the iron instruments and arms, used 
 by the natives of those islands, are manufactured by them- 
 selves from their own iron ? 
 
 I believe chiefly by themselves. I have also understood that 
 they formerly obtained an occasional supply from the Dutch 
 of ornamented lire arms : indeed, I saw some of that descrip- 
 tion in the Straits of Alias when I was there. 
 
 P. 403. Are you acquainted with the state of manu- 
 factured articles now made at the presidencies by native la- 
 bourers under the instruction of British artificers, which 
 manufactured articles were formerly imported from Great 
 Britain ? 
 
 I know it to be a fact, that there are at this time manu- 
 factured at the presidencies a great variety of articles of lea- 
 ther, such as boots, shoes, &c. : they also manufacture car- 
 riages extremely well, furniture, and cabinet articles. 
 
 Any articles in the metals, gold, silver, brass, iron, and 
 steel? 
 
 Yes ; all the articles enumerated in this question, generally, 
 and very "well finished. 
 
 Can you give any opinion what proportion those articles 
 now made there and consumed by the British settlers bear 
 to those now imported from Great Britain ? 
 
 I cannot say. 
 
 Has the exportation of those articles from Great Britain 
 decreased ? 
 
 I have understood it to have done so of late years. 
 
 Are you of opinion that as improvements increase in the 
 manufacture of those articles, the importation of those articles 
 from Great Britain may be materially affected ? 
 
 I think so ; certainly. 
 
 Lieut.-Col. Sir John Malcolm, p. 407. 
 
 Do you wish to correct any part of your evidence ? 
 
 In p. 67 of my examination, a question was asked me, "might 
 not an increase in the knowledge of useful arts in the natives, 
 conveyed by British subjects resident in India, tend to 
 strengthen the British government in India ?" my answer was,
 
 36 
 
 "I conceive that such knowledge might tend, in a considerable 
 degree, to increase their own comforts and their enjoyment 
 of life ; but I cannot see how it would tend in any shape to 
 strengthen the political security of the English government 
 in India, which appears to me to rest peculiarly upon their 
 present condition." I wish to add, that I mean by stating 
 that the political security of the English government in India 
 appears to rest peculiarly upon the present condition of the na- 
 tive subjects, to refer to their actual divisions into casts, with 
 particular duties and occupations, and to that reverence and 
 respect which they entertain for Europeans, not only on ac- 
 count of their knowledge of the superior branches of science, 
 but also of their better knowledge of many of the mechanical 
 and more useful arts in life ; and therefore, though I conceive 
 that the communication of such knowledge to the natives 
 would add to their comforts and their enjoyments of life, 
 and would increase their strength as a community, I do not 
 think that the communication of any knowledge which tend- 
 ed gradually to do away the subsisting distinctions among 
 our native subjects, or to diminish that respect which they 
 entertain for Europeans, could be said to add to the political 
 strength of the English government. I am far, however, 
 from stating an opinion that the contemplation of its even 
 lessening that strength, which is to be viewed as a distant, 
 and many may conceive, a speculative danger, should operate 
 as a motive with the English government to check the pro- 
 gress of improvement in such useful arts among its native 
 subjects ; but it appears to me one among many other causes 
 that should keep the English government very awake to the 
 growing difficulty of governing the Indian empire. 
 
 Are not you of opinion that to increase the comforts and 
 enjoyments of life of the native population of India would 
 tend to strengthen their attachment to the British govern- 
 ment ; and, consequently, to strengthen and ensure the sta- 
 bility of that government in India ? 
 
 From all I have ever been able to observe of nations, I do 
 not think we can calculate upon gratitude, for the benefits of 
 the nature described, as an operating motive that would at 
 all balance against the danger of that strength which such a 
 community as that of our Indian subjects might derive from 
 the general diffusion of knowledge, and the eventual abolition 
 of its casts, a consciousness of which would naturally incline 
 them U throw off the yoke of a foreign power , and such they
 
 37 
 
 always must consider the British in India. I wish to be un- 
 derstood as alluding, in this answer, to a danger that is very 
 remote, but yet in my opinion worthy of attention. 
 
 Are not the natives of India in your opinion susceptible of 
 gratitude in the highest degree ? Have you not known in- 
 stances of generosity and liberality on the part of the natives 
 of India which would have done honour to any men in any 
 age? 
 
 I think the natives of India, individually considered, are 
 susceptible of gratitude ; and I have known many instances 
 of liberality and generosity among them ; but I do not con- 
 ceive that we can, as I stated before, calculate upon such mo- 
 tives as likely to influence the community, which we shall 
 always find it difficult to rule in proportion as it obtains 
 union and possesses the power of throwing off that subjec- 
 tion in which it is now placed to the British government. 
 
 P. 413. Are not great quantities of iron, steel, copper, lead, 
 and tin, now in common use among the natives of India of 
 all casts ? 
 
 Certainly ; all these metals are in use amongst them : I 
 have no means of stating in what quantity. 
 
 P. 417. Are the articles in metal, in use among the na- 
 tives, almost universally manufactured by the natives from the 
 native materials ? 
 
 A very great proportion of the metals manufactured by 
 the natives themselves, for domestic purposes, are obtained 
 either in India, or from the Turkish dominions. I allude parti- 
 cularly to iron and steel, which are found in many parts of India, 
 the latter in great quantities in the Mysore country; and copper , 
 ivhich is brought in considerable quantities doivn the Gulf of Persia 
 from the mines of Diabekir ; and tin is, I believe, imported 
 from the island of Banca in the eastern seas. 
 
 Is that iron and that tin so imported into India to be had 
 at a much lower price than the same articles brought from 
 Europe ? 
 
 I cannot answer this question from minute information ; 
 but T must suppose, that as great quantities of those metals are 
 imported f^om Europe, the importation from the Persian Gulf 
 and other places 'would cease, if it ivas not from its being cheaper, 
 zr of a superior t^' 
 
 Martin Lindsay, Esq. p. 423. 
 Do you know from information, which satisfies you, how
 
 38 
 
 far most of the different trades for the supply of European 
 articles of furniture, such as coachmakers, cabinetmakers, up- 
 holsterers, workers in metals, tailors, shoemakers, and workers 
 in ^luss, are established there ? 
 
 I h;n-e understood there are, in Calcutta particularly, arti- 
 ficer > of almost every description, manufacturers of furniture 
 of different descriptions, very good shoes and boots, and al- 
 most every article in leather, and certainly of tailors there are 
 abundance ; also of manufacturers of various articles in iron 
 and /ft/, gold and silver ; they make a great deal of the irtn 
 work necessary for shipping. 
 
 Do you know at all the proportion the price articles ma- 
 nufactured now in India under British artificers and by native 
 labourers, bears to the price of the same articles imported 
 from Europe ? 
 
 No ; I cannot speak decidedly to the question. 
 
 Do you know whether they are the same price, or 
 cheaper ? 
 
 I should suppose they are cheaper. 
 
 Do you suppose them to be of such a price as, if the articles 
 are fit for use, would most materially diminish the import of 
 the same articles from England ? 
 
 They certainly do hurt the importation from England ; in 
 shoes I can speak particularly ; they are procured much 
 cheaper, and they answer the purpose extremely well both in 
 China and in India in fine weather. 
 
 Thomas G. Murray, Esq. p. 434-. 
 
 Are you acquainted with the produce of the island of 
 Banca ? 
 
 I have passed Banca. 
 
 Have you any information of the nature of the produce of 
 the island of Banca ; does it produce tin ? 
 
 I believe it produces tin ; and that the chief part of the tin 
 carried to China, either from the place itself, or from Malacca 
 or Penang, I believe is produced in Banca. 
 
 Do you know the relative value of the tin carried from 
 Banca to China, with tin that might be exported from this 
 country ? 
 
 1 recollect once asking a Chinaman the question, which 
 was the most preferable; and he told me, that tbt Banca tin,
 
 39 
 
 certainly; but as to the relative value of them, I cannot 
 
 speak. 
 
 James Horsburgh, Esq. p. 437. 
 
 Are you acquainted with the produce of the island of 
 Banca ? 
 
 Yes. 
 
 Do you know that the island of Banca produces tin of a 
 very fine quality, and in very great quantities ? 
 
 I understand it does not produce so much now as it did 
 formerly. 
 
 Do you mean that so much is not exported from it, or that 
 there is any defect in the produce of the country ? 
 
 There is not so much procured, I understand. 
 
 Have you understood that tin is extremely easily procured 
 in that country, and very easily smelted ? 
 
 Yes, I understand so ; it is near the surface of the ground, 
 what they procure in small pits ; it is of a very soft quality, 
 easily smelted. 
 
 Have you understood that during the time that the Dutch 
 power prevailed in that part of India, the Chinese Were in a 
 very considerable degree supplied with tin by the Dutch from 
 the island of Banca ? 
 
 Yes, I believe they were. 
 
 Have you any doubt that the Chinese might still be sup- 
 plied with the same article from that island, at a much 
 cheaper rate than they can from England ? 
 
 I really do not know the relative difference of prices. 
 
 You do not know the comparative prices of tin from Banca 
 and from England ? 
 
 I do not. 
 
 Do you know whether iron is a produce of one of those 
 eastern islands ? 
 
 I have heard that they have iron in some of the islands. 
 
 Do they not manufacture their cresses, which are offensive 
 weapons, and other iron utensils and arms, from their own 
 iron ? 
 
 They temper their own cresses themselves, and manufac- 
 ture them ; whether all from their own iron, I cannot say. 
 
 You know, from having seen those instruments, that they 
 are their own manufacture ? 
 Certainly.
 
 40 
 
 Sir G. T. Staunton, Bart. p. 445. 
 
 Do you know whether the island of Banca supplies much 
 tin to the Chinese market ? 
 
 It is a considerable source of the supply of tin to the 
 Chinese market. 
 
 Do you know the relative price of the tin supplied from 
 Banca, and that imported from England ? 
 
 1 do not recollect. 
 
 Daniel Beale y Esq. p. 462. 
 
 Is not tin brought to Canton by the Chinese traders and 
 other persons from the island of Banca ? 
 
 Considerable quantities of tin are imported annually by 
 the eastern traders from the Straits of Banca. 
 
 Do you know pretty nearly the relative prime cost and 
 charges on which tin is brought from Great Britain, and what 
 is brought from Banca ? 
 
 No ; I cannot sneak to that ; but it is much cheaper from 
 Banca, generally speaking, and the quality is far preferable, 
 being much more malleable and soft. 
 
 Jati:es Drumtnond, Esq. p. 528. 
 
 Do you know the average quantity of British tin imported 
 by the East India Company into China ? 
 
 I believe it has been about 300 tons : but I cannot; charge 
 my memory to state the exact quantity. 
 
 Do you ki:-jw the average quantity of copper ? 
 
 I think copper for several years has not been imported by 
 the East India Company ; copper made into small sticks to 
 imitate the Japan copper^ was lor a time imported into China, 
 and I do not exactly recollect when it was given up, but i 
 believe it has been discontinued for some years. 
 
 Do you know the prices which the tin imported to China 
 costs the Company ? 
 
 I can only judge from the invoices; and as far as my me- 
 mory will assist me, I think it was from 131. to 81 1. per ton. 
 
 Do you know whether tin is not brought from Banca to 
 Chin;;, by Chinese junks and other conveyances? 
 
 We had very imperfect means in China of ascertaining 
 the importations by the Chinese junks, for they belong to a.
 
 41 
 
 variety of ports in the empire, and they are under a different 
 department of the customs from what the foreign trade is, 
 and therefore we have never been able to obtain any correct 
 statement of their imports or exports. With respect to the 
 importation by British or other ships, I believe for several 
 years it has been very trifling, but I cannot say to what 
 extent. 
 
 Do not you know that great quantities of tin at present, 
 that Banca is no longer under the Dutch monopoly, may be 
 obtained there ; and if it can be obtained at a much inferior 
 price, will it not be supposed, that instead of importing tin 
 from Europe, the produce of Great Britain, private ships 
 trading will bring it from Banca, and supersede the import 
 of that British produce which at present takes place in 
 China ? 
 
 I cannot speak from my own knowledge with respect to 
 the quantity of tin that is produced at Banca, or among any 
 of the other eastern or Malay islands ; but those possessions 
 belonging at present to Great Britain, I should conceive that 
 facilities will be given to the obtaining of tin, which have 
 not existed for many years past, and that consequently the 
 sale price of Banca tin being generally higher in China than 
 that of the British tin, it will become a considerable article 
 of import to China. 
 
 Can you inform the committee why Banca tin sells higher 
 in general at Canton than British tin ? 
 
 The reason which the Chinese generally assign is, its being 
 more malleable. 
 
 Are you acquainted with the prime cost at Banca, or the 
 relative cost of that and of British tin ? 
 
 I am not, but I should conceive it must be considerably 
 cheaper, by having understood that all those who formerly 
 traded in it, derived very considerable advantages from the 
 trade. 
 
 THE END. 
 
 6
 
 T. Davison, Lombard-street, 
 Whitefriars, London.
 
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 Interes-'i ng 
 
 A2P2 extracts from 
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 v.2 
 
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