.:,-^ M^n^c^ /t a. >- ;5: -P REPORT. JT) a [The Figures in the Margin denote the numbers of the Questions which gave rise to the Evidence upon the several points ; and in the edition printed by order of the Honourable House of Commons, the numbers from 3400 to 3999 having been repeated bj' mistake, those numbers in the present edition are distinguished by having the letter a annexed to the second series, and are referred to accordingly.] THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into I the present state of the Affairs of the East-India ^ Company, and into the Trade between Great Britain, - the East-Indies, and China, and to report their Observa- tions thereupon to the House ; having from time to time reported the Minutes of Evidence, and having now- closed that part of the inquiry which respects the China Trade, deem it expedient to place before the House a Summary of all the Evidence which has been taken upon that subject. Your Committee directed their attention in the first instance to the papers relating to the finances of India, laid before the House in February last by the King's command ; but having ■^ found it necessary to call for further statements, your Committee determined to proceed to an examination of the state of the trade with China, postponing, until that should be completed, their inquiry into the Company's finances. B The 4 REPORT ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS from the The present report, therefore, will embrace only the China Trade ; but, as in the course of it there will frequently be occasion to use the term " Board's Rates of Exchange," it may be desirable so far to refer to the first day's Minutes of Evi- dence, which relate exclusively to financial matters, as to explain that phrase to mean, that in the plan for the separation of the territorial and commercial accounts of the Company, framed in obedience to the Act of the 53d Geo. III. c. 155. s. 64, the Board of Commissioners for the Al^'airs of India 4307. (contrary to the opinion of the Court of Directors) determined to use the old rates of exchange, accordmg to which, 72. 78. 82. 90. 148. the Sicca Rupee is equivalent to 2s. 3d. •84. the Madras Rupee to 2s. 3d. '408. and the Bombay Rupee to 2s. 3d. 900. and which as they now materially exceed either the bullion par or the market exchange, have the effect of giving to the Indian territor}" a great advantage from the Company's trade, indepen- dently of any direct benefit which may accrue to it from the appropriation of the surplus profits of that trade as prescribed in the 57th section of the Act of the 53d Geo. III. c. 155. It is however stated that, if that advantage had not been derived by the territory in this form, there would have been a corres- ponding increase of the surplus so to be appropriated. The evidence on the China Trade may be classed under the following general heads, viz. The disposition of the Chinese in respect to Foreign Trade, and the mode in which their transactions Avith foreigners are conducted at Canton : The state of the British trade with China, particularly of that in tea : The SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 5 The mode in which the Company's sales of tea in England are conducted, and the effects of the laws which regulate the trade in that article upon the Company and upon the public respectively : The trade of the Americans and of other foreigners with China: and The effects expected from the abolition of the Company's exclusive privilege. Multifarious as are the topics referred to in the evidence, they may all be comprised under one or other of these divisions; while by adopting this simple arrangement, your Committee hope to bring before the House, without troubling it with unnecessary details, a clear and comprehensive summary of the information they have obtained, abstaining from the expression of any opinion. DISPOSITION OF THE CHINESE IN RESPECT TO FOREIGN TRADE, AND THE MODE IN WHICH THEIR TRANSACTIONS WITH FOREIGNERS ARE CONDUCTED AT CANTON. The people of China are represented to be intelligent, indus- 297. 3492a. 3670a. 38.52a, trious, and persevering ; and although said to be in some -95- 371- measure independent of foreign trade, owing to their success in g^g g22. 1129. 1870 agriculture and to their extensive island commerce, yet highly ^^°^- sensible of its value, and anxiously disposed to cultivate it. 2640. 2671.3424. 3792 This disposition, indeed, is strikingly manifested in the Chinese 4487!" settlers on the Eastern islands, whose object in emigrating is 3479-3538.34920. the accumulation of wealth Avith a view to returning into their ^^jg. own country, to which they have a strong attachment ; and a 877. 3491. 3673a. B 2 further 6 REPORT ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS from the further proof of this spirit is to be found in tlie number of Chinese junks which frequent the various ports of the Archi- pelago. 369. One witness has certainly said that the Chinese are " anti- 1358. 1413. commercial ;" but this term has been explained to apply, not 297- 371- 1315- so much to the disposition of the people as to that of the 2641. 2689. government, whose policy, as it is stated, is adverse to foreign 3627. 3495a. 3852a. trade and to all foreigners, even though they are aware of the 177- 369- 426. 529. advantages derived from that intercourse. Towards the English, 2451. 2689. it is by some apprehended that there exist peculiar jealousy and distrust, arising from a knowledge of their territorial acqui- sitions and military achievements in India, especially those in Nepaul and Ava. The government of China derives from the foreign trade a 173- 1329. 3539- revenue, estimated at the most at ^650,000 per annum, besides the advantage resulting from the patronage of Canton, said to 173- 3787- be the most valuable in the empire, and to be sold by the 1285. 2542. 2647. government to the highest bidder. Hence it follows that the 2691. local authorities are greatly interested in maintaining the trade, which, from the same cause, is subjected to heavy taxes and 1331. extortions. The inhabitants also of Canton and its neighbour- hood, as well as the numerous classes employed in the culture and manufacture of tea, have a deep interest in the trade, 805. 2645. every interruption of which consequently causes great indivi- dual distress. 170. 389. 1310. The foreign trade, whicli is now restricted to Canton (except- 70. 702. 4490. ing in the case of the Spaniards, who have still access to Amoy, a privilege stated to be nearly nominal, and very rarely used) was formerly carried on in other ports, from which foreigners 170. 1308. 1319 &seq. were gradually excluded by acts of the Chinese government. In spite of these restrictions, however, it is stated that a contra- band trade, chiefly in opium, has of late been openly carried on SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 7 on (without any disturbance from the Chinese authorities) with the ports to the north-east of Canton, which are represented to 4441a. &seq. be safe and excellent harbours. Foreigners are interdicted, by Chinese regulations, from 275 to 277. going within the walls of Canton. The place of their abode is a small suburb, and their residence there is authorized only for the period of the shipping season; but that limitation is not enforced, the Company's servants going Avhen they please to Canton, and some private merchants residing there throughout the year. Tea, although cultivated in maritime districts, is brought 332. 883. 3052. 3807. ... 3874a. chiefly to Canton through the interior, the government pro- hibiting it from being transported by sea in native vessels, in 1881 &seq. 2709. 3519. which, however, in spite of that prohibition, tea is conveyed 4462 & seq^^ ^ in considerable quantities to the Eastern Archipelago, and even to Canton. Foreign ships are not permitted to trade at Canton until 424.478.659.680.925. security is given to the government for the payment of its dues ; which security also involves responsibility for the good conduct, and submission to the laws, of the ship's company. The only 423. 1004. persons whom the government accepts as such security, are the Hong merchants, formerly ten in number, but reduced by bankruptcies to seven. These, with the exception of the senior, 171- 424- 671. 686. excused upon the ground of his numerous avocations, become security for the Company's ships in turn ; the whole of the Company's trade being apportioned among the seven Hong 613. 1201. merchants in shares. It has been stated that the Hong merchants have occasionally 424- 679. 681.684.691 manifested an unwillingness to become security for Indian and 685. American ships, and required, as a condition of the undertak- ing, to be traded with exclusively ; but on the other hand, evidence S REPORT ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS from the 1151. 1570. 1935. 3263. evidence has been given that no such difficulty has been expe- rienced, and that the security merchant is selected by the trader with a view to his own interests, it being the practice to trade 1157- 1570- always in part, and generally in chief, with the merchant so selected. 171. 172. 480. The Hong merchants form the body through which the Government of China permits the foreign trade to be carried on, allowing, however, other persons (designated in the evidence as 468. 833. 1280. 1300. " Outside Merchants" and " Shopmen") to trade with foreigners ; 324. 1269 & seq. 1278. t»ut not in certain articles, such as tea, raw silk, cloths and g^g°2' woollens, all of which are by the Chinese edicts reserved exclu- sively to the Hong merchants, they being responsible for the duties of the outside merchants, 701. 937- 3727- The Hong merchants are by law mutually responsible for each other, to a limited amount ; but that regulation does not appear to be always enforced. 1470 and 1471. No one is responsible for the debts of the outside merchants, and traders are warned of this in official notifications. 1120. 1586. 1970. The Hong merchants are stated to be fair and liberal in their 1120. 1469. 1581. 1974. conduct. A similar opinion, though with less confidence, and some qualification, has been expressed respecting the outside merchants. 181. 427. 623. 1204. The East-India Company deal exclusively with the Hong merchants, and are represented to be the only traders who 323. 461.558. 782.924. abstain entirely from all illicit dealing. A preference has been 2294! '3258.^^ °^^"^ expressed by most of the witnesses to trade with members of the Hong; but the officers of the Company's ships, and private 1581. 1932. 1977. 2283. traders, including the Americans, have frequent dealings with ' '^^^^' the outside merchants, even in tea and other prohibited articles. From a communication made to the Court of Directors by the SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 9 the Select Committee at Canton, dated the 29th December 1829, it appears that four of the Hong merchants were in a state of inevitable bankruptcy ; and that the Hong, generally, was in such a deplorable condition as to render necessary either " a radical change of system," or an increase in the number of Hong merchants. With a view to this object, a negotiation was commenced by the Select Committee with the local autho- rities ; and advices have recently been received, dated the 23d of February and 2d of March last, announcing that this negotiation had led to the addition of three merchants to the Hong, and to the expression of a desire on the part of the viceroy of Canton further to increase the number. The object of the Chinese government in their several regu- 662. lations affecting foreign trade, is stated to be, that that trade should be always within their own control. This would have been more completely secured than at present, had that govern- iSg&seq. ment accomplished a plan, proposed in 1814, under the sanction of an imperial edict, for giving to two or three of the senior Hong merchants, as the agents of the government, an absolute power to fix prices. The attempt Avas resisted by the Company's Supercargoes, who, after having recourse to the 484. measure (adopted usually by the Chinese, Avhen they have an object to attain) of stopping the trade, succeeded in defeating 459- 486. 2625 & seq. an arrangement which must have proved injurious to all fo- reigners in China. Most of the witnesses who have been at Canton concur in 952. 1573. 1963. 2592. stating, that business may be transacted there with greater 3417. 3765. 3852. facility and expedition than in almost any other part of the 38.54«- world, much of which is said to be owing to the transactions 1966. connected with each ship being all managed by the same per- son, the security merchant. It has been further stated, that ^^^^ 1605 & seq. the Hong merchants have occasionally aided the operations of commerce, by advancing money on loan to foreigners. Smuggling 10 REPORT ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS from the 174. 480. 483. 1996. Smuggling in various articles is carried on in China to an immense extent, and to the injury of the Hong merchants, who 291. 428. 1900. 3356. are never concerned in it. It takes place chiefly in the contra- band article of opium, which is imported into China in country 3743- and American ships, and much of which is purchased at the Company's sales in India. 741- The Chinese government prohibits the use of opium upon a 550- 715- moral principle ; but this prohibition, although frequently reiterated in imperial proclamations, is not only disregarded by 174. 713. 719. 2001. to the people, but also by the government officers, whoappear sys- 2005.2526.2534.2577. V. „ ^ . , ^, ,. n ■ J. J • tematically to connive at the smugghng ot opmm, and to derive 3795- a large profit from the bribes of the smugglers. The Company's 291. 706. 709. 2020. servants in India and China are cognizant of the fact, that the opium sold at their sales is conveyed to China ; but the}' are expressly prohibited from having any dealings whatever in that article. STATE OF THE BRITISH TRADE WITH CHINA, AND PAR- TICULARLY OF THAT IN TEA. 705. The trade of the United Kingdom, and of British subjects, with Ciiina, which in the aggregate largely exceeds that carried on by all other foreigners, is by law (o3d Geo. 3. c. 15.5, sec. 2 and 8) vested in the East-India Company until April 1834; and no tea can, at any place, be put on board of a British vessel, or of any other vessel by British subjects, but by the East- India Company, or persons duly authorized by them. These r«v/eActsof53Gco. III. privileges do not empower even the Company, either by them- cap. i55,and54Gt'o. III. • i r .. xi i i. j i .. /~ • ■ 1 14 • ml • • 1-1 T 189Q. IQOO. '5357 & 3358. merchants, British and American, ihe opium is readily dis- 3923a. ' posed of in China ; and the returns of merchandize from China to India not being proportioned to the value of the opium, many of the ships go back in ballast, taking their sale proceeds either in bills on India, or in specie, the exportation of which 765.3496a. requires a license from the Chinese authorities. This permis- 764.2769. sion is granted occasionally for dollars, but never for native silver, usually called sycee. Both are, however, constantly 2551.3497a. exported by private traders to India, in spite of the prohibition ; 762.768. and the whole export of silver by different parties has in some years considerably overbalanced the importation of dollars. By these several methods of placing funds in China, in addi- 1587. 4262. 4308- 4888. tion to drafts upon England, the tale (a nominal or imaginary 413.3946.5572. money 18 EVIDENCE on EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS from the money in China, estimated by Americans as bearing the pro- portion of 133 dollars to 100 tales) has cost the Company very nearly 6s. 8f/. upon an average of all the years since 1814-15; but in this cost, as is to be observed, are moreover included the 4909 & 4910- 5088. freight and actual charges upon the outward consignments, 4394- and a portion besides of the charges of the establishment in China ; and the loss, by the Board's rates of exchange (referred to and explained in the early part of this report) is included, so 4398- far as the Indian part of the transaction is concerned. But on the other hand, this profit and loss computation of Qs. 8d. the 4375.4913. tale does not include interest upon the Company's capital, and insurance from sea risk. Interest and insurance are omitted^ upon the principle, as is stated, that neither the one nor the other are actual outgoings. It has been mentioned in evidence, that the rate of 6s. 8d. per tale is that which has for a long 4888. period been used in the profit and loss accounts of the Com- pany's China trade, and has also been recognized by the several Parliamentary Committees which at diflercnt times have had to investigate the Company's afifairs. 746.546. The Company's exports from China are now confined to tea, the trade in which has considerably increased since 1814. The 747. Company have discontinued the exports of nankeens and silk, 749.750. which latter article in its raw state appears to have been sent in some quantities to Sincapore, and from thence brought to Eng- land in private trade. 1395. 1400. 2091. 2701. 'J'ca is grown and used throughout China. Those species 3693 to 3696a. 3733a. which are suited for the European and American markets are ^°^' stated to be produced in five provinces ; but doubts, as it ajipears in evidence, are entertained, whether the quantity of Jine teas required for those markets could be materially 1391- 3692ft. 3695a. augmented, an opinion being also given that an increased 208. 356. 778. 1098. demand would for a time cause a rise of price. Supposinff the 2490.3703a. I ri & quantity SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 19 quantity could be augmented, previous arrangements would be necessary to obtain it ; the tea plant requiring at least two or three years to come to maturity. A sudden supply of an 339.3- 3469a- increased demand, especially for green tea, would, it is said, be 380- 411- 1432. 1434- *■ ^ '27'^2. 2707. of a deteriorated quality. In cases, however, where the Chinese 208! 446. 2799. have found that the demand was increasing, they have made 1118. their provision accordingly, though some difficulty has occa- 4H& 415- 1593- sionally been experienced by traders in obtaining all they wanted. A large proportion of the Company's black teas is bought by 186.408.579. previous contract with the Hong merchants, who form corres- |)onding engagements with the cultivators, to whom the Hong 498. merchants make pecuniary advances. The practice of making 186.204. advances to the Hong was formerly used by the Company ; but it is now abandoned, from finding that it often entailed an 204. obligation to receive the tea, whatever its quality might prove ; and also from a desire to lessen the amount of the Company's risks in China. The method of previous contract is considered 2138.2594. by some witnesses to be well calculated to effect a regular supply, and of good quality ; but on the other hand an opinion 3269. has been expressed, that the tea might be bought more advan- tageously by watching the state of the market. The prices of all the Company's teas are settled, after an 186. 1211. examination of their respective qualities, by a descending scale, 579- 592- 1211 to 1213. fixed many years since ; but subject to change in the event of 181.1230. alterations in the market price, the Canton market for teas 927. being said to be a fluctuating one. It is however alleged that the market price is regulated by the Company ; and instances 178.423.1230.1236. are adduced of their not only having successfully resisted com- '^^'^^'^' binations of the tea merchants to raise their prices, but also of their having, in the year 1825, effected a material reduction in 200. the market prices of contract teas. aoo. 603. 1212. D The €0 REPORT ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS from the 186. 199.409.930. 1412. The Company appear to have the pre-emption of most of the 2490- 3044- 3577- black teas, of which they are by far the largest purchasers ; but they have not the pre-emption of the green, of which the Ame- 187.315.1043.3446. ricans are the largest purchasers. This advantage in the 4294.344 . market is stated to depend upon the extent of the respective dealings. 199.380.930.1412.1599. Many of the witnesses concur in saying, that owing to the 27^0 ^o'^f '^'^'^'''^^^' extent of the Company's purchases, to their system of contract, and to their great regularity', they buy the teas, particularly the black, at comparative advantages. Instances have been men- 1600 &seq. tioned of teas intended for the Company having been sold 3271.5179 to 5181. by the Hong merchants to other parties at an advance of price. 4740. One witness indeed is of opinion that the Company pay higher prices than private traders ; and it is said, that by waiting until the Company's season is over, teas are purchased more cheaply' 1218101223. than by the Company during the season ; but it is in this mode that the Company themselves buy their winter teas. 3402. Difference of opinion exists at Canton regarding the effect of 382.416. the Company's transactions upon prices in China ; some main- taining that it is to keep down prices ; and others that it is of an opposite character. THE MODE IN WHICH THE COMPANY'S SALES OF TEA IN ENGLAND ARE CONDUCTED, AND THE EFFECTS OF THE LAWS WHICH REGULATE THE TRADE IN THAT ARTICLE UPON THE COMPANY, AND UPON THE PUBLIC RE- SPECTIVELY. The Act of the 24th Ceo. I FT. cap. 38, provides that there shall be at least four sales in (>very year, at which there shall be put SELECT COMMIITEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 21 put up such quantities of tea as shall be judged equal to the demand ; that the tea so put up shall be sold without reserve to the highest bidder, provided an advance of one penny per pound shall be bid upon the prices at which the same shall be put up ; and that it shall not be lawful for the Company " to " put up their tea for sale at any prices which shall upon the " whole of the teas so put up at any one sale exceed the prime " COST thereof, with the freight and changes of importation, " together with lawful interest from the time of the arrival " of such tea in Great Britain, and the common premium of " INSURANCE, as a compensation for the sea risk incurred " thereon." The quantity of tea sold by the Company has greatly in- Papers as to Trade with . India and China, ordered creased since 1814. The average oi three years 1814-15 to to be printed 4th June 18l6'-17, was 25,028,243 lbs. ; and the average of the three ^^^g, N0.33. years 1826-27 to 1828-29, was 28,017,238 lbs. It has been stated that the principle to which the Company look in deter- 4941- niinino- what quantity to offer for sale, is the amount of 4368. 4941- 4947 & seq. . 4943- 50D5- deliveries and the quantities sold at the previous sale. The Papers as to Trade witii , 1 /• .1 1 1-^ • i.1 1 4. iU India and Chiiia, ordered average sale proceeds of the larger quantity in the last three t^ i,e printed 4th June years, amounted to no more than £3,376,773, while that of the '^^9, No. 33. smaller quantity in the three first years of the present Charter was £4,003,838. The supply is said to have more than kept pace with the 411-4366 & seq. .5420. demand. Considerable quantities offered have occasionally been withdrawn, in consequence of no advance having been bid on the upset price. Some complaint was indeed made some years since, on the part of tiie Scotch dealers, that the 5420.5453. Company did not put up enough ; but it is stated, that when the Company augmented their supply, the same dealers com- plained of the increase, owing to their interest being affected by D 2 a reduc- 22 REPORT ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS from the a reduction in the value of tlieir stock in iiand, the amount of 5455' which, however, is said to be generally very small. From the Act which has been quoted, it will be observed that there are five component parts in the computation of the upset price of tea; viz. Prime Cost, Freight, Charges, Interest, and Insurance. To these it will be desirable, for the purpose of fully investi- gating an important part of the subject, to advert separately. PRIME COST. 3994a. 4149. 4164.4297. The Company, according to the evidence given, consider all their consignments and remittances to China as made solely with a view to the provision of funds for the purchase of tea. They therefore compute the Prime Cost of the tea at the sums ex- pended in making those consignments and remittances, adding the Charges on the outward consignments, including Insu- +236 & seq. 4298.4883. RANGE ; and also adding Interest from the first date of ex- penditure in respect to such consignments until that of the ar- 343.417,5. rival of the tea in England. In this computation (which your 3994 4244 to 4246. Committee have deemed it necessary clearly to explain) the 4302.4306 & 4307. Company do not observe the Board's Rates of exchange, but a88*" ' '" the rates they have thought fit to adopt are founded on the old Mint standard of 5s. 2d. an ounce, which, although much less than the Board's valuation, considerably exceeds the market price of silver; but it has been stated to your Committee, that 430,5. 4,306. 4887. upon an average of all the years since 1814-15, there is only a fractional difference between the value of the rupee at the market price and at the old standard. In SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 23 In the computation of the upset price, the Board's rates have not been used, because the Company, disapproving of these 4307. rates, would not afford to them any avoidable sanction, and because also the observance of them would have had the effect, which it is said the Company always deprecate, of enhancing the upset price ; but in the computation of profit and loss, the 4308. 4397. 4398. Board's rates are necessarily observed, as the loss to the com- merce which they occasion must be so brought to account. In- terest and Insurance (as before shewn) form a part of the prime cost of the tea, inasmuch as the Company employ their capital, 4883. 4401. and risk their property in importing it ; but they do not enter into their statement of profit and loss, because the Company, trading upon their own capital, consider that there is no actual 4400. outgoing of interest ; and because, as being their own under- writers, there is no charge for sea risk beyond actual losses, which alone are therefore charged to profit and loss. It has been suggested, that the more proper criterion for 3972a &seq. ascertaining the prime cost of tea, or indeed of any other article, would be the sterling value in exchange upon England at the market price at which bills may have been negotiated in the foreign country in the^'ear of purchase ; and, with regard to the market rate of exchange at Canton, an opinion is expressed, that if the trade ^vere thrown open, the exchange would consi- derably fall, a like result having taken place in Bengal when the Company's exclusive privilege of trade to India was put an end to. The cost to the Company of the Tale, in their computation 3979a. 4306. of the upset price of the teas, has amounted, upon an average 4-23-2. of all the years since 1814-1.5, to 6s. 7d. -502. If the bill of ex- change rate had been the principle of computation, it would have averaged for the same period 6s. Sd. '949 per tale. Restrict- ing the comparison to the year 1828-29, the upset price valuation was 6s. 4-d. -624, as is shewn in an account made up at the East- India House ; and it has been stated, that in that year bills upon 24 REPORT ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS from the 5250. 5321. upon England were drawn from Canton on private merchants 3413- at rates even lower than 4s. the dollar, which is equivalent to 5s. 6d. -f per tale ; and that, if the monopoly did not exist, the rate 3979a. would not upon an average exceed 4s. 3d. the dollar; some thinking that it would be even lower. 4344- 4347- In reply it has been remarked, that the method adopted by 4166. 4311. 4342.4344. the Company is in conformity with the laws prescribed to them by Parliament : that a computation of prime cost, founded on 4312. the rate of exchange prevalent at Canton upon London, would not be a proper criterion, as the Company cannot raise all their funds by bills upon themselves in England, without defeating the arrangement under which the proceeds of their itnports are in part appropriated to payments for the territorial government of India, amounting, upon an average, to three millions sterling a year. 4301- The sum so paid in England is reimbursed to the commercial branch in India, the effect of that arrangement being, to make Profit and Loss Account the China trade, to the extent of two-thirds of the funds em- of the Tea Trade in , , . . . . ^^ i t i- 1828-29, laid before the pioycd ui buymg teas, a trade ot remittance tor the Indian ter- No!"24."'^^' ^^ ^ ^°' ritory. The commercial branch makes this remittance at the Board's rates, the gain by which to India, compared with the market rates, amounted, in 1828-29, from the tea trade alone, to £169,174. 4978. It has been further stated, in reference to the comparison be- tween the value of the tale in the upset price computation in 1828-29, and its value in that year at the market exchange, that 759- 2436. 4969 & 4970- the Company's proceedings should be measured by the results, not of any one year, but of u series of years ; that since 1814-15, the exchange at Canton upon London has fluctuated from 6"s. 43>o. to 4s. the dollar : and that the tale has, by the Company's com- 43*8. bined operations, been more cheaply valued, taking the average of the present charter, than it would have been if computed at the SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 25 the rate at which bullion could have been sent to China, or at 4310. that at which bills appear to have been drawn in the same period ; that, obliged as the Company are by law (24 Geo. 3, c. 38) to provide a regular supply of tea, they could not risk a 4010a. 4333. 5146. dependence on such a money n)arket as Canton for all their funds (other persons, however, contending that the supply woidd 3976a- be certain); that if they did so, they would be subjected to the 4333- combinations of persons having the disposal of the available funds in China, and that a great rise in the rate of exchange must have followed any attempt to negotiate bills on England to 4i79- 4327. 5043- .50.51- an extent proportioned to the Company's demand for funds. ,5144.5231. A statement has been submitted, tending to shew that the 4294. prime cost of the teas sold in the United States of America is less than the Company's. FREIGHT. The freight included in the upset price of the Company's tea 4248. is an average computation per pound of that which they have actually incurred in respect to the tea put up, a.\\ political freight 3994a- and demurrage being carried to the debit of the territorial ac- 1415. 2097. 2175.2^41. count. It has been said by several of the witnesses, and in- '^3896«&^q.4663&seq. stances have been mentioned in support of their statement, that the Company's rates of freight are high, compared with those which private merchants pay ; but this, on the other hand, has 4372.4709 & seq. been attributed to the operation of the law (58 Geo. III. c. 83, s. 2, in which former similar enactments were consolidated) under which the Company build ships, for the China trade, on contract for six voyages, applicable to warfare as well as trade; and it has been stated tliat most of such ships now in the ser- 3955. 4372.4384.4388. vice were contracted for in seasons of high prices : that the rates of freight are gradually decreasing; but that the Company's 3961.4386.4696. vessels, employed as they are in the conveyance of troops on distant voyages, must be equipped, even during peace, more expensively 26 REPORT ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS from the' '": expensively than would be required for a mere commercial 4.20-,. purpose. The charge for freight of tea imported in the Com- pany's ships has amounted to about 4^d. for black, and 5^d. for 3989"- green tea; and it has been stated that it could now be imported in private trade for Sd. per lb. or even lower. An account how- No. 38. 5629. ever, has been laid before your Committee, for the purpose of showing that through the gradual reduction of the Company's freight, their charge will not eventually exceed 2'^ 57 dec. foj black tea and 3"^ 21 dec. for green tea. 373- 1710. 1834. i94,r,. The Company derive, as is given in evidence, an advantage 2223 & 2224. 2238. . 1 -^ _ o o 3900a. in the employment of large ships, from the mode of levying the port charges at Canton, which are in some respects less in pro- 138.5- 1387-2230.2357. portion for a large than for a small vessel ; and it has been said that the large ships stow more rapidly and safely than the small, 3922. and carry more in proportion to their tonnage. The latter part ^39010. *°"^^''' of this statement has been controverted. The ships which the Company engage to convey teas to Canada are of a smaller description than those employed in the ,377. 434 & 4:55. regular service. The Americans are said to have found by ex- 3310. perience that the cheapest and best ships for employment in the India and China trade, are those of about 400 tons. It has been declared in evidence, that if the Company were unfettered by law, and were not compelled to make their ships 4373- applicable to political services, their freights would be as low as those of private merchants. CHARGES. The charges are only those on the homeward investment ; those on the outward, consignments being, as already observed, included in the computation of the tale in the prime cost. These SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 27 These charges comprehend the expenses of landing, housing, 4232. warehouse rent, and preparing for sale ; also the commission of the Supercargoes, which is at the rate of two per cent, on the net sale amount of the teas, deducting charges, and is not paid 348. 350. until two years after shipment in China. The commission on 3.51- the outward consignments, comprised under the head of prime 344. cost, is at the rate of nearly two per cent upon the sales in China and England. The rate of commission on the transac- 366.961.989-1033.1105. f • . . J J A • ■ n\ • 4. 1717 etseq. 1957. tions or private traders and Americans in China appears to 1720, 1721. fluctuate fnmi five to two and a half per cent., a single com- -2544.2587.3709.3789. mission beins charged on the outward and homeward invest- ments. INTEREST. It Avill be seen that to the prime cost, according to the Com- 4298 and 4300. pany's mode of computing it, is added interest /"rowz the time of the provision of the Funds in China, up to that of the arrival of the tea in England, when the Company would be in the situation to sell it, were it not for that provision in the Act of the 24th Geo, 3, c. 38, which requires them to keep a stock at least equal to one year's consumption always beforehand ; coupled with that pro- vision, is an authority to the Company to include in the upset Account, No. 2, p. 542. price of the tea " lawful interest from the time of the arrival of 4232- such tea in Great Britain." The Company's practice under this 4253. enactment is, to charge an interest at the rate of five per cent, per annum for eighteen months, so that (combining the ordi- 4299. nary usage of the Company as respects interest being included in the invoice charges with the Parliamentary enactment) the upset price of the tea includes interest from the time of the first expenditure in making remittances to China, until eighteen months after the arrival of the tea in England, that period of eigh- teen months being stated to be the shortest average period that the tea can remain on hand ; the Company's ships all arriving 4392.4886. E at 28 REPORT ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS from the 230.4392.4937104939. at a particular time of the year, and the Act, as construed by the ^°^^" ConijDany, requiring that the minimum stock on hand should not at any period tall below a quantity equal to twelve months Consumption. 1051.1095. The keeping the article for so long a time produces deterio- ration in the green teas, and that is also considered in America 1051. 1172.3585a. and in Holland to be the case with black teas ; but the evidence of the tea brokers is, that if black teas are kept in warehouses, 5432 & seq. 5521 &' seq. and not in cellars, as is said to have been sometimes the case, they improve by keeping, and becoming stronger, are better •5526. liked by the public. INSURANCE. 5132. The Company are their own Under-writers, or, to speak more correctly, they do not insure at all ; and being empowered by law to charge in the upset price of tea " the common premium 4206.4331. of insurance, as a compensation for sea risk/' they annually fix 2100.2242.2414.3314. a rate stated to be in reference to the market rate. The rate 3316. 3996. 3601a. t 1 .1 r^i • ,1 , I •, 5129. now used by the Company is three per cent. ; and it appears m the evidence, that that is not more than the rate usually paid for the property of the owner and officers embarked in a Com- 33ii.39'82. pany's ship; though the rate for a /^nuaie ship going direct is lower. It was observed above, that the Company's ships arc liable to circuitous voyages and deviations for political services, and this is considered to involve greater risk. The losses actually sus- tained by the Company at sea, since 1814-15, arc stated by 5130. them not to have exceeded three- fourths per cent. The tea that is put up to sale must by 24 Geo. 3, c. 58, be sold to the best biddei", provided there be an advance of one penny SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 29 penny per pound ; and the Company offer to sell it, if the 5059. advance be no more than one farthing per pound. Incases .5104 & 5105. where no advance is offered, the tea is put up at the next sale without any price being affixed to it, and sold for what it will fetch. It has generally happened that the sale price has considerably exceeded the price at which the Company offered to sell the 4366. tea, the difference being, of course, all profit to the Company, who have also a further profit from their insurance account, and from the employment of the capital used in the tea trade, at an interest of five per cent, per annum. Insurance and interest at that rate being, as already observed, comprised in the upset price. The profit, thus obtained, has of late very greatly declined ; and it is stated not to have exceeded in the last year 5066. six per cent, on the capital employed, exclusive however of 5071,5.072. interest, and of the gain (as already explained) from the 5087. insurance account. Notwithstanding the diminution in the Company's profit, it 4294104297 has been stated, that the fall in the price of their tea, although very considerable, has not equalled the fall in the prices of other articles of trade. On the other hand it has been 5107. observed, that the rise in the price of tea, during the period of high prices, was not so great as in that of some other commo- dities, and that the trade in tea has by the Company's system been kept more steady than other commercial undertakings. Several statements have been submitted in evidence, with a 3427-34200.34540. view of showing that the Company's exclusive right to supply 3968a. 3989a. 4086. tea entails a very heavy tax upon the jjublic, amounting, in the 4294- view of one witness, to £1,500,000 ; of another, to £1,727,934; and of a third, to £2,588,499, of which latter sum, however, one half is acknowledged to be duty paid to the State. But 3461.3464- E 2 those 30 EVIDENCE on EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS from the 4359- those statements have been objected to and controverted, upon the grounds that they have reference to a trade c(jnducted differently fiom that which the Legislature has prescribed to the Company ; that the calculations are in some respects arith- metically wrong, that they are all fallacious, inasmuch as they assume the rate of exchange in one year, and the prices paid to the Company in another ; and that in some of them the 4360. prices of tea in China are stated lower than the tea could be 4359- purchased for, without risking deterioration of quality. 4900.4903.5086. It has at the same time been admitted, that the Company's the China Trade, ordered pi'^^^ fiom the trade is very considerable. From a statement w be printed 17th June which has been laid before your Connnittee, of the profit and loss of the China trade for the last fifteen years, it would appear that the Company's profit upon imports from China in that period, including interest and insurance, has aggregated ^15,414,414; which if the mercantile instead of the Board's rates of exchange had been observed, would have been •587.5- increased to £,\6,97\,Sl6. This is inclusive of the profit and the loss upon exports from England, and from India to China ; the results of these transactions, according to the Company's mode of computation, as before explained, being accounted for in the prime cost at which the imports from China are valued. It is said that these profits have afforded to the Company the means not only to pay the dividend upon the East-India slock, and the interest of the bond debt (the latter of which however, '^'^''^'- it is contended, should not be charged on the commerce of the Comj)any), but also of materially aiding the finances of the Indian territory, which are said to be in such a situation as to 4899104903. render that assistance necessary. Contrary to this view of the case, one witness has submitted statements 4359- SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 31 statements for the purpose of proving, that the profits of the 3435o. 3764a & seq. tea trade to the Company are not sufficient to meet the charges 5370. of the dividend on East-India stock, and of the interest on the bond debt ; and that the deficiency, which he supposes to exist, is suppHed by territorial revenue, notwithstanding that 3770a. 5263 & seq. it appears by the accounts laid before Parliament, that that piplrs^reiatfng°'to the revenue has upon the whole, since 1814-15, fallen far short of F'^ances of India, Fe- ■^ ' bruary 1830, p. 1.5. the territorial charges. The ground of this witness's computation is, that the Com- 5262.5337- pany have no commercial capital, although it has been stated that the commercial assets are calculated to amount to ,£21,731,869 the particulars of which are given in one of the 4914. accounts. The same witness has said, that interest should be Papers relating to the charged as an actual outgoing (and not as a profit) in a state- bruary^Sso.pp^eT&Sa^." nient of the results of tea trade to the Company ; and he 5337- has also said, that the whole of the insurance should be included 5262.5359- in the charges upon the trade; and that a much larger allow- 4375- 5333 & 5334- ance should be made for wastage than that of two per cent, which the Company deduct on that account. The whole of the calculations of this witness has been con- 4375-4913- troverted upon the ground that if the interest and insurance be charged, they must appear again on the credit side of an account professing to shew the amount of the funds applicable to the dividend, and to the interest upon the bond debt, the Legislature having (53d Geo. 3, c, 155, s. 57), declared that all the profits and other receipts of the Company in England shall be appropriated to those and other specified purposes. Should the interest upon the capital, and the profit of the insurance account be charged and not re-credited, it is affirmed that all the receipts would not be appropriated as the above quoted Act directs, and that the Company would be left in possession of those aniounts. An official document has also 4203 been 33 REPORT ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS from the been produced, to show that the Company's expenditure for allowance and wastage does not exceed two per cent. As this part of the subject will fall within the scope of the inquiry which your Committee are now making into the Com- pany's finances, they think it unnecessary further to enlarge upon it in this place ; contenting themselves with referring the House to the evidence which has been given in elucidation of the discordant statements ; and from which it will be seen, 342 Iff &seq. 3764^5.' seq. that the opinion of the Company's trade deriving aid from the 5 178 & seq. 5263 & s^' territorial revenue is at variance with that expressed by the 5367 &seq. Select Committee on Foreign Trade, in 1821, towards the close 5275- 5358- of their third Report. 4294a. 1254- 3279- 3409- 1811. 674 & 1675. 3540n. 5135 252. 3568a. It has been stated that the price of tea to the consumer in Great Britain is higher than that at which it is sold on the continent of Europe and in America, after deducting the duty ; and although a mere comparison of prices quoted for the seve- ral denominations of tea aflords no just criterion, there being various k'inds classed under the same denomination, yet exam- ples have been adduced to show that where the quality has been equal, the prices have been higher in England than else- where. This is further proved, as respects several of the sorts of tea (though not all), by the prices affixed by the London tea- brokers to teas purchased on the Continent and in America, by order of the India Board, for the express purpose of making such comparison. It would indeed seem that the prices paid to the Company for their teas must be higher than those at which tea is sold in other countries; the Company relying, as it appears, upon the profits of the tea trade, to enable them to fulfil the obligations which Parliament has imposed upon them in their twofold political SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 33 political and commercial character ; while foreigners, on the contrary, have no such obligations. The revenue to the Crown from tea is produced by an ad 5618. valorem duty. There are numerous prices of the different kinds 5614 & 5616. of tea, which are ascertained at the Company's sales, so that the duty chargeable in each case is determined without diffi- 5618. culty. The average amount of this revenue is stated to be about 5603. ^3,300,000 annually. It is most economically collected by the Company, who pay it over quarterly, a fortnight after they 5591. receive it ; and the whole of the charge incurred by the Crown for an establishment to check and superintend this branch of the Excise in London, is stated to amount to less than 5596- ^10,000 annually, exclusive of the establishment for superin- 5604. tend in"- the dealers' stocks. TRADE OF THE AMERICANS AND OF OTHER FOREIGNERS WITH CHINA. The Russians are said to be excluded from Canton in consequence of the privilege they enjoy of trading with China overland. Of the other European nations, those which have 263. been mentioned as continuing to resort to Canton, are, the French, the Dutch, the Swedes and Danes, and the Austrians; but the trade of all these is comparatively trifling. The most 259.261.262.264. important of them is the Dutch trade, which used to be con- 255.516.2520. ducted by a Company with exclusive privileges, but is now thrown open. There is, however, a Netherlands Association, of modern 521.3577a- formation, by which the Dutch China Trade is principally con- 663.3573a. ducted, 34 REPORT ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS from the ducted, and which appears to have been estabUshed with the 3608a. hope of promoting the sale in China of Belgian manufactures. 3564 & 3565a. In that object the Netherlands Association failed; and its returns in tea have caused a loss, it is said, of twent^'-five per 3570a. cent, on the capital employed. This Association is restricted 1669 & 1670. 3627a. from exporting British manufactures to China. Although the 3 ^^"^ Dutch trade (as before observed) is princi[)ally carried on through the Netlierlands Association, no such restriction as to British manufactures is imposed upon Dutch private traders, 3621a (Srseq. who, however, in consequence of heavy losses occasioned by competition with the Americans, are stated to have in a great measure abandoned the trade since 1825. 35970- This trade of the Dutch has been carried on in ships of from 400 to 500 tons, and is conducted by resident agents in China, 255- where there are two supercargoes and a consul. It does not 268.523. appear that of late years the Dutch have experienced any ditKculties in the transaction of business at Canton. 325&seq. The Americans used to conduct an extensive carrying trade 197- 325- 519- 941- 1668. from China to Holland and other parts ; but this has consider- 1745 & 1746. 182010 1 1 r- 11 rr ■ , i t-» i i i 1823. ably fallen oti, owing to the Dutch and other nations importing 1667. direct for their own use. It has been stated, however, that the '?823?325i &^seq.^^ ^' Auieiicans can still compete with the Dutch in their own market. ■ "^'''' 328 &32g. The aggregate of the American trade with China has increased '97- since 1814; but latterly there has been a falling-oft'. Their 539. 994- 1025. nog. , • ^ • • 11 r i 11 1 • 1 • *.! 1443. i.r^^s. ,r/J47. exports consist principally or dollars, which, even since they 'I'urcrLr^oXcTrby '^eg'^" to take British manufactures to Canton, have formed the Lords to be printed, two-thiids of the total exported. The imports into America nth May 1830. , , . ' ' , 921. 1027. 14G8. from China are chieliy teas and manufactured silks. The latter ^^'^^^^' article is said to yield the best return, though that has not always been the case. Their SELECT COMMI'lTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 35 Their tea trade was formerly very profitable; but, in conse- 1685. 1689. 1747. ,)202. f . \- 11 11-1 32'29. 3411. 3413 & seq. quence ot overtrading, encouraged by a system adopted in the United Slates, of giving to the importers of tea a year's credit 330. 394. 905. 1054. for the duties, it subsec^uently became a losing one. The ^°7 -14 -3252 seq. xVmerican trade with China seems also to have suffered from the establishment (by authority of the Act of the 5 Geo. IV. 541.907.1056. cap. 88) of the trade of the Company from China to Canada, 906-915.1088. which settlement was previously' supplied in a great measure 1746. 1754 & i7.5.5- with tea smu(i;gled from the United States. That part of the American trade which relates to India and 10S3. 1749 & 1750. China, is stated not to labour under greater depression than any other trade of the United States: and opinions have been expressed, that if conducted upon correct principles, and nSo&nSi. brought within proper limits, the American trade with China 1133.1748. might still be profitable. The Americans are said to navigate their ships at a less 3330. expense, not only than the Company, but than British mer- chants in general. Some of the American vessels are chartered ,031. 1037. 1759. by various persons in shares, each of whom may and often does send a supercargo ; but this is not done in all cases. Instances 1564. 1910. have been mentioned of the transactions of a voyage having been wholly, and without difficulty, managed in China by the commander of the ship; but the more frequent practice is to 964 & 965. employ a resident agent, it being thought that the business is better arranged with the Chinese by persons of established con- fidence, than by strangers. The American consul at Canton acts as agent for those 450- 1734- wlio choose to employ him ; and there are several American merchants who reside in China. The Am ericans are well treated in China. Their trade is said 1123. 1692 ii693. 1853. £0 be popular there, in consequence of the large importation of F dollars ; 3G REPORT ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS from the dollars ; and it has been interrupted only once since 1814. 202. 552. 556.936 1728 The cause of the interruption was an accidental homicide of a ■seq. 1 47. Chinese by an Italian seaman of an American ship. He was given up to the local authorities ; by their order he was put to death, and then the trade was resumed. EFFECTS EXPECTED FROM THE ABOLITION OF THE COM- PANY'S EXCLUSIVE PRIVILEGE. 2206 & 2207. The opening of the trade between Great Britain and China would not, it is thought, cause any alteration in the policy of 383. 2638. the Chinese government towards foreigners, unless the revenue should fall off from an increase of smuggling by free traders, or unless there should be Irom private disputes more frequent 178-295.338.383.401. collisions between Europeans and Chinese. In either of these tloi ^^l 8 ^^^' ~**^ contingencies, apprehensions are entertained that the trade 3499a. might be entirely interdicted. But, on the other hand, it is said that such a fatal result would be averted, either by the sense which the Chinese government entertains of the value of the trade, or by the influence of the population of Canton, and of the tea districts, which are deeply interested in its con- tinuance. If the trade were interdicted, tea, it is thought, i886&seq. 2707. 3526. might be brought to Sincaporc, and other places accessible to the British traders, in Chinese junks ; but such a com- 332- 353- 355- 874. 883. Hierce is stated to be contrary at present to the laws of •^°^^" China ; and much doubt is felt, whether, by the means of such insecure vessels as the junks are represented to be, tea could be obtained in sutiicient quantities for the English market. 423- 559- It is said that the interest of the Hong merchants, in a pecu- niary point of view, would be promoted by an open trade, as an increase in the number of purchasers of tea would afford an opj)ortunity SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 37 opportunity for comiiiatKling liigli prices. In spite, however, of snch expected advantage, the Hong merchants, from an apprehension of increased risk and responsibility, are repre- sented to be against any change. On the other hand, it is 1153 & seq. 1875. 2684 . . 1 » • 1 1 r • 1 1- r I & 2685. 0346. stated that the Americans and other foreigners, deahng treely as private traders, have not experienced any combination against them on the part of the Hong merchants. In Older to derive advantage from a free trade between Great 839. 3043. 3065. 3072. Britain and Cliina, it would be necessary, as some think, that '^'^^ "' the monopoly of the Hong merchants should cease, and that a connnercial treaty, upon nmtually liberal principles, should be formed between the two countries. It is, however, appre- hended that the Chinese would not be induced to enter into such a treaty by any other than coercive means, and these it is fancied might be easily and successfully used. 3065 & seq. 3498a. Many of the witnesses are strongly impressed with the belief, that a very large increase in the consumption of British manufactures would be the consequence of opening the trade. Private merchants, they say, can push a commerce much better 2146. 2180. 2183.2184. , ,,• iiu J 2686. 2852. 2922. than a company ; and new wants and desires would be created 3368. 3395. 3449. by the never-ceasing efforts of individual enterprize and specu- ^^^^^ 3^^""' ^^'"' lation. These witnesses refer, not only to the fact, of the 3095- 3494a- Americans having of late made exports of British manufactures to China, but they also refer to the result of opening the trade with India, followed as that measure unquestionably was by an immense increase in the exports from this country. In opposition to these views, it is said that the small pro- 387.507.510.539.629. portion of the American exports of British manufactures, rela- 2185. 2307^*^4% ^685. lively with bullion, coupled with the fact, that the officers of the Company's ships, having no freight to pay, have not increased their exports, ought to be considered as proof that F 2 the 35S359 38 REPORT ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS from the the consumption has not, as yet, been found susceptible of any 4338. 4892 & seq. material augmentation. It is further stated, that a formidable obstacle to the growth of a profitable export trade from Great Britain to China, arises fiom the obligation under which India is placed of annually effecting a large remittance to England, and which remittance is now advantageously made by the Company 644.5093. through the medium of Chinese produce. It is likewise observed, that the extended use of British manufactures in India has been promoted by fiscal regulations, which the British 644.1498.3570. government had the power there to make, but which it could not effect in China. 1141. 2489. 2798.3045. With respect to the price of tea, it is thought that the first effect of an increased demand in China, consequent upon the opening of the trade, would be materially to raise the price there ; though indeed this effect (unless the Hong should be enabled to dictate prices) might be expected gradually to subside. 2095. 2141. It is said that the charges of bringing the tea to England and '^^ ■*■ selling it, would be much less in a free trade than they are at present, and therefore that tea would be aflbrded to the con- 4,311. 4334. 4372. 4373. sumer at a i'-wer rate. In answer to this it is remarked, that most of the Company's charges are controlled by law ; that ^135- these might be reduced if the law were altered ; and that what the Company get in shape of profit, is necessary, with tlie obli- gations imposed upon them, to enable them to administer the 4338. 4898 & scq. government of India. According to this view, whatever the consumer of tea might gain by a reduction of the rate of profit to the importer, would either be at a sacrifice to India, not now in a situation to bear it, or must be made up by the people of England ; besides which it has been observed, that the ability 4905 & 4906. of the private traders to furnish tea cheaper than the Company, would depend upon the effect which an open trade might have upon |)rices at Canton. One SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 39 One great advantage expected to result from an open trade 34880.35050.38790* with China, is the facility which it would give to private mer- ^ o«- 39320- chants to effect returns from India, in which great difficulty is now experienced. It is said that the Company partake largely 4338. 4347- 4897- 5089 of this inconvenience, and that owing to the pressure of the de- mand for the government remittances, it has become necessary to make the China trade a principal channel of effecting them. Deprived of this channel, India would be obliged to remit through the private trade, by which (should remittances to so large an amount be practicable) a loss would be sustained equal to the difference between the rupee valued at the Board's rates, and at the current exchance. 'to^ If the trade were opened, the Company would still possess 4904. the povv^er of trading with China ; and it is thought by some that their capital and influence might enable them to trade more successfully than private merchants. But it is said that this competition might be mutually injurious, without the country's being benefitted by an extension of her commerce ; and that the Company's profits, if they had competitors, would be so reduced as to prevent them from ministering to the financial aid of the Indian territory. Your Committee have thus endeavoured to give a fair and impartial summary of the evidence on the China trade which has been brought before them. *& Whether this object shall have been faithfully and satisfac- torilly effected, will appear to the House by a careful perusal and examination of the whole evidence itself ; but it will not fail to be borne in mind, that in the midst of such multifarious and conflicting statements as that evidence contains, and restrained as your Committee have been (both by what was expressed 40 ^ REPORT ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS, &c. expressed in the House, and by their own sense of what, at the present period, would be either prudent or just) to a plain unbiassed narrative of their proceedings, it has not been in the power of your Committee to offer such observations and to enter upon such discrimination of the evidence, as might be a guide to the House in the decisions hereafter to be made. Your Committee have, on the contrary, done their utmost to guard against the appearance of a leaning on the one side or on the other. Their observations, your Committee have felt, ought not, b}' any inference of their own, to convey opinions which may have been taken up ; but, in the execution of the important duty committed to their charge, while from necessity some valuable information may be left unnoticed, they have studiously endea- voured, by classification and arrangement, to bring the most material parts of the Evidence into view, and thus to facilitate to the House the means of acquiring for itself an accurate knowledge of its real tendency and result. 8th July 1S30. SCHEDULE of the Acts, Papers, and Accounts, referred to in the preceding REPORT. ACTS — 24 Geo. III. c. 38. — usually called the Commutation Act. 53 Geo. III. c. 155. 54 Geo. III. c. 34. 58 Geo. III. c. 83. 5 Geo. IV. c. 88. MINUTES of EVIDENCE taken before the Select Committee, from the 15th February to the 3d of June 1830 No. 514. PAPERS relative to the Trade with India and China ; Ordered to be printed the 4th of June 1829. — No. 285. PAPERS relating to the Finances of India, and the Trade of Iridia and China ; Presented by his Majesty's command, February 1830. — No. 22. REPORT of the Select Committee of the House of Lords, relative to the Trade with the East-Indies and China ; Ordered to be printed 7th of May 1821. — No476. THIRD REPORT of the Select Committee of the House of Com- mons on Foreign Trade ; Ordered to be printed 10th of July 1821. —No. 746. ACCOUNT of the Profit and Loss of the Company's Tea Trade with China ; for the year 1828-29. RETURN of the Foreign Trade with China ; Ordered, by The Lords, to be printed 11th of May 1830 j and STATEMENT of all the Commercial Receipts and Charges of the Company since 1814-15 ; delivered to the Committee on the 17th June 1830. FIRST REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS ON THE AFFAIRS OF THE EAST-INDIA COMPANY 1830. LIST OF WITNESSES. Lunee, 15° die Februarii 1830. , Esq. James Cosmo Melvill, Esq, Thomas Gore Lloyd, Esq. ") , TVm. Leach, Esq. ' . '^ '.'^ ^^-^ ^^ . . . . 7 Jovis, 18° die Februarii 1830. Charles Marjoribanks, Esq. .-_■---%_ .' j _^.. ^^_ "... 17 Lun^, 22° Februarii 1830. John Frajicis Davis, Esq. - -' "[}■ t' . "" - . - 52 Martis, 23° die Februarii 1830. Charles Marjoribanks, Esq. 76 Jovis, 25° die Februarii 1830. William Brown, Esq. ^- . . ■■. ''^-:^^^. . . . 115 Mv. Richard Milne VW*i.v\ Lvv'K'^ -i-.T. ^ vv^^>3--. . , jgg Luna;, V die Martii 1830. John Francis Davis, Esq. ..----.- 141 IVilliam Carfwright, Esq. .-.----- 170 Martis, 2° die Martii 1830. Captain Abel Coffin - - ^'^ v ^^fl-^s- .... 176 Jovis, 4° die Martii 1830. Mr. John Aken . -' L*s; itw 202 FIRST JREPORT. THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the present State of the Affairs of the East-India Company, and into the Trade between Great Britain^ the East-Indies, and China ; and to report their Observations thereupon to the House ; and who were empowered to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time, to the House ; — HAVE made a Progress in the matters to them referred, and had examined several Witnesses; and directed the Minutes of the Evidence to be reported to the House up to the 4th day of this instant, March, inclusive. 4//i March, 1830. MINUTES or EVIDENCE. LuncB, 15° die Februarii, 1830. William Ward, Esq. in the Chair. THOMAS GORE LLOYD, Esq. Accountant-General of the East- India Company, and JAMES COSMO MELVILL, Esq. Auditor 15 Feb. 1H3U. of tlie East-India Company ; called in and examined. J.C.MelvillEsq. 1. (To Mr. Melvill.) — You fill the office of Auditor to the East-India Company ? — I do. 2. Are you Auditor of the accounts of the revenue, commercial and po- litical, or of any other department? — Of the whole of the political accounts of India. 3. What do you consider as the political accounts ? — The whole of the revenues and charges applicable to the territorial government of India. 4. Do you include in that the revenue of the old settled districts of the ceded and of the conquered or tributary states ? — The whole. 5. Are those accounts sent home annually to England? — They are. 6. To what period have the last complete set been received? — Up to the 30th of April 1828 ; the account of 1827-1828. 7. Have you seen the printed papers submitted to this Committee, signed William Leach, dated the 4th of January 1830 r — I saw them, for the first time, late on Saturday afternoon. 8. Do you know whether that account is made up to April 1827, for the year 1S2G-7 ? — It professes to be. 9. The Committee are to understand that you have a whole year's ac- counts at the India-House, received after those accounts were made up? — Undoubtedly ; which, I believe, the Committee will find contained in a paper communicated from the India-House, included in this collection, page 26. 10. Are the Committee to understand that the accounts in Table, No. 1 (A) are a regular abstract of the revenues and charges under the Bengal presidency ? — I have not yet had an opportunity of examining them. 11. Will you state whether detailed accounts of the items from which those accounts arc made up are also forwarded ? — Undoubtedly. 12. For SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. S 12. For instance, have you the details of the expense of the Mint? — We '-^ l'^^''- 1^^'^- have. \3. Does the return show the coinage, the expenses of the establishment, and other matters connected with the department ? — It does. 14. You have stated that you have charge of the political ; will you have the goodness to state what other departments of accounts come home from India, and who has charge of them ? — I am not aware that any other accounts come home, except the commercial accounts, which come into the Company's home accounts, and of which Mr. Lloyd, the Accountant-gene- ral has charge. 15. Are the Committee to understand that, with the details of the poli- tical accounts, and the details of the commercial accounts, tliey shall have the whole accounts the India Company possess ? — If by political is meant the expenses of the political government, including the civil and military charges. 16. Will you state to the Committee under how many different heads the revenues of Bengal are arranged ? — The General department, which comprehends the Mint, Post-office and Stamps ; the Judicial department, which merely comprehends a few fees and fines; the Land Revenue de- partment, which comprehends the land revenue ; the Customs, which com- prehends land and sea customs ; the Salt, which comprehends the gross receipts from the sales of salt ; the Opium, which comprehends the gross receipts from the sale of opium. There is a new head of account, of the Territories ceded during the present charter on the Nerbuddah ; there is, finally, the head of Marine receipts, which comprehends river dues. 17- In what departments are the revenues of Benares included ? — They are included under the several heads I have mentioned to the Committee. The head of Revenue shews how much was received from Benares, how much from the old province, how much from the new ; and so of the Customs. 18. Are the Committee to understand that in the accounts you keep at the India-House, the profits, if any, of the Benares mint, the receipt, if any, of stamps in that district, would appear as part of the general receipt of the Mint and Stamps ? — Undoubtedly, stated separately under that ge- neral head. 19. Do you understand what fills up the column here under the head of Benares, where, for instance, for the year 1809-10, the revenue of Be- nares is stated at £570,486, and for the year 18^6-7, it is stated at £784,784 ; are the Committee to understand that that is the aggregate of the revenue of Benares, and that no portion of it is included in the pre- ceding existing columns? — I should apprehend so; but not having had an opportunity of examining the account, I cannot answer precisely. A 2 20. The J. C. Mclvill, llxij. 4 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 15 Feb. 1830. 50. The Committee are to understand that there are portions of those ;■ columns placed precisely under the same classification under which you have J. C.Mehnll,Esq. j^^j stated the other revenues to be ? — Yes. 21. At the India-House, Benares is kept separate and distinct? — We have the materials for keeping it distinct ; they are sent home distinct. 22. There is another column, " Ceded Provinces in Oude ;" does that column contain the aggregate of the whole receipts of revenue under every head ? — I apprehend the answers I have given as to Benares are applicable to that. 23. And the same with respect to the Conquered Provinces? — ^Yes. 24. Can you furnish to the Committee details respecting those five departments, Benares, Ceded Provinces of Oude, Conquered Provinces, Ceded Territory on the Nerbuddah, Ceded Provinces in Burmah, under their respective heads, in the same manner as the Committee have the re- venue lor the old provinces of Bengal ? — Undoubtedly. 25. In the accounts of the salt revenue, have you the annual expense of the establishment, the gross and net produce, and prices of sale ? — Certainly. 26. With respect to opium, the same details can be furnished ? — Yes. 27. Under what head are the sayer or inland duties included? — They come under the head of the land revenue, a separate branch of the land re- venue, the sayer or transit duties, and the abkarrie or e.\cise duties on spirits. 28. Does the column marked " Total Revenues" contain the entire gross amount of all those revenues which you have now stated? — I presume it does, if the figures are correct. 29. Is it the practice in India, in paying money out of the revenue, to credit only the actual amount received, or do you bring the receipts for all such payments made into the gross amount? — The gross amount is credited without any deduction whatever, the deductions being carried to the oppo- site side of the account. 30. Will you state how many departments of audit there are in Calcutta, for examining those accounts before they are settled and sent to England ? — They are audited by the several Boards and separate functionaries. 31. How many Boards are there, and what are their duties ? — There are three Boards; one of Revenue, consisting of three or four members, civil servants ; tiiere is a Board of Salt and Opium, consisting of three members, civil servants : and there is a Marine Board, consisting of three civil servants and the Master-Attendant in ("alcutta : each of these Boards has an accountant. 32. Are those Boards entirely separate from each other, so that no members of one are members of another ? — The Marine Board is united in a great measure SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 5 measure with the Board of Salt and Opium, only that the Master-Attendant 15 i<\:b. 183(). is a member of the Board for marine purposes. 33. You mean to say that the Salt and Opium Board, joined by the Master- Attendant, sits as the Marine Board ? — Yes. The civil charges are not audited by either of those Boards, but by an officer expressly for that pur- pose, who is denominated the Civil Auditor, and who audits also the accounts of the Mint and of the Post-office. The military charges are audited by a separate auditor, under the denomination of the Military Auditor-general, who is a member of the Military Board, 84. Will you state the constitution of the Military Board ? — It is not in my department. 35. Will you state what period elapses after the close of the year before the land revenue is audited and settled ? — About ten months. The accounts are closed to the 30th of April in each year, and they should be despatched about the January or February following. That delay is created by the revenue accounts and military accounts not being intermediately audited. 36. Will you state to what cause the delay that takes place is to be assigned ? — The complexity of the accounts, the vast sums they embrace, and the necessity of referring to a great distance. 37. Will you state the time that elapses in the final audit of the other Boards after the closing of the year ? — About the same time. 38. Does the auditing at home in your office include any judgment upon the charges, or is it merely passing the accounts as they are passed in India ? — It is merely a revision of the accounts ; the auditing of the accounts, properly so called, takes place in India. 39. Your office in England is merely recording the transactions of the audit offices in India? — Clearly so; so far as respects the audit branch of business. The duty consists in revising the whole of the Indian books, and seeing that all the orders of the home authorities with respect to the mode of keeping those accounts have been strictly observed. 40. Do you conceive that the system of audit of the accounts in India, and afterwards by re-examination at home, is as good a system as can be established, or that it might be improved ? — If I may be permitted to form a judgment, I should say that the system that now prevails in India is a good one ; that the accounts are quickly audited, considering the vast sums and the description of tliB expenditure they embrace. 41. You have stated that the office with which you are connected audits merely the political accounts ?— Meaning by that the whole of the territorial revenues and charges ; what would be called the Government accounts. 42. In what office are the commercial accounts audited ?— .My Mr. Lloyd, the Accountant-genera!, who is here. 43. Do 6 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 15 Feb. 1830. 43. Do you mean the accounts in India connected with India, as well as the accounts at home ? — I apprehend that the audit of commercial accounts J. ( . Melri/f, Esq. takes place in India; and that what takes place in this country by Mr. Lloyd is very similar to that which takes place in my office in regard to the political accounts. 44. So that the commercial accounts in India are not included in your department? — They are not. 45. They are made up in India, and not in London ? — Not in London. 46. Are the salt and opium accounts included in your department ? — They are. 47- You consider them purely revenue accounts, and not commercial ? — Clearly revenue accounts. 48. Have the goodness to state how the salt comes into the possession of the East-India Company? — The Committee will be pleased to understand mine is merely a department of account. 49. In page G of the accounts before the Committee, it appears that in the year 1826-7 the profits of the Government Bank are brought in under the head of Mint ; are the profits of the Bank generally brought in under the head of Mint, or is that the only year in which they have been so introduced ? — I believe that is the only year in which there are any profits from the Government Bank at Madras, and it is only at Madras that there is purely a Government Bank : those profits had accumulated for a long course of years, without being brought to account, and there was an adjustment in that year. I was not aware, until the honourable Member pointed it out, that this item was stated in the accounts signed " William Leach," under the head of Mint. 50. Can you inform the Committee in what manner the salt and opium come into the possession of the Company's authorities in India ? — I have not in my department the documents which would furnish the information. 5L With regard to the salt and opium, can you inform the Committee whether, under the head of Revenue, as tiiat including the gross amount, you take the repayment of advances of the year previous which is put together with the charges under the same head ? — It is a cash transaction ; and these accounts show in one year what has been received in that year, and what has been spent and advanced in that year. 52. Under the head of Revenue you have separately that received as revenue for the salt and opium, and also that received in repayment of advances made in the j)reccding year ? — What is termed advances is money issued to the manufacturer for the purchase of the article, and not intended to be repaid ; it is an advance to him on account of his contract. 53. The Committee are not to understand, then, that if you deduct the smaller from the larger sum, that which remains is the exact profit of that year ? — No, not of that year. 54. It SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 7 15 Fel). 1830. 54. It may be taken running from year to year, as shewing the net balance ?-Yes. ^ y i h j.c.Mdnll,K.,. 55. What is comprehended under the head of Marine Revenue ? — There are river dues, moorings and pilotage, and light-house dues also. 56. Will you state in what manner the military stores, vvhicii strictly belong to the political department, which are purchased in England and sent out, are brought into the accounts? — -They are included among the territorial charges paid in England. 57. They do not enter into this account at all? — Certainly not. 58. Does the revenue of the Mint include seignorage, or from what does that arise ? — There is a duty upon coinage ; I presume a seignorage. 59' Are you aware whether any alteration has been made since the Report of the Committee in 1810, in which the statement of the Mint regulations is contained? — I am not aware of any alteration ; the business connected with the Mint is in a separate department. 60. Can the Committee obtain an account of the items from which this revenue arises ? — Undoubtedly. 61. In the money coined at the Mint on account of the Company, is that charge for seignorage included? — I am not able to answer that question without referring to the detailed accounts. 02. Does that remain as stated in the Report of 1810? — I believe it does ; but I must take the liberty of referring the Committee to the department in which the business of the Mint is transacted. 63. Can you state whether the sum credited in each year as profit to the Mint is net profit, or whether there is a charge to be set against it ? — There is a large charge on the opposite side of the account. 64. Is the East-India Company, in its commercial capacity, charged with a seignorage for the money coined at the India mints ? — I apprehend that the Company, in its commercial capacity, has no money coined at the India mints ; in its territorial capacity it has. C)5. Is there any seignorage charged in this account of receipts for money coined for the Company generally ? — I am not aware; but the honourable Committee may be furnished with the details of the account. 66. Are you aware that any portion of the revenues of Bengal are received in kind? — x\'o, I apprehend not. WILLIAM LEACH, Esq. Accountant to the Board of Commissioners for the Affairs of India, called in, and examined. 67. Will you look at that paper that you have in your hand, page 4, under Wm.Leacli, Fsij. the head of Benares, and state whether you conceive the sums in that column of land revenue, stamps, and every other kind of income received in Benares, are included? — This account has been made up from the accounts pre- sented 8 EVIDINCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 13 Ffli. 1830. sented to Parliament every year, and I suppose it to include all those items. AJr. Melvill, being present, can of course speak to the fact. J.( .Melvill,Esq. 6^- {Tu Mr. Melvill.) Do you, in the accounts that you make up for Par- liament, include Benares separately? — Yes, 1 do; and that includes all the heads. U'm. T.kkIi, Esq. gg^ (j-q Mr. Leach.) Have the goodness to state at what exchange you have converted all the rupees into pounds in the Table you have laid before the Committee ? — At the exchange used in the Parliamentary accounts ; ^s. the current rupee. 70. Are all the accounts of Bengal kept in current rupees, or siccas? — They are kept in siccas. The difference between the current and sicca is l6 per cent. ; the sicca rupee is 16 per cent, better than the current ; that is the rate at which the sterling value shewn in the accounts before Parliament is calculated. 71. In what rupee are the whole of those accounts of the revenue kept at Calcutta ?— In sicca rupees. 72. At what rate do you convert the sicca rupee into current? — By taking the sicca at IG per cent, better than the current rupee at 2a-., which makes 25. Sd. and i^^^ths for the sicca rupee. 73. The process you adopt is first to convert the sicca into current rupees, and then the current rupees into pounds sterling, at the exchange of 25. the current rupee ? — Exactly so. 74. Is the exchange you have taken the commercial exchange? — No; it is the exchange that has been in use in the accounts before Parliament for a very long series of years. J.C.Melvill. Esq. "75. (To Mr. Melvill.) How do you consider this rate of conversion to be, as considered with the intrinsic value of the sicca rupee? — Do the Committee mean, that in computing the intrinsic value, I am to refer to the standard price of silver at the English Mint? 76. Yes. — Taking the price of silver at the Mint standard in England, of 55. 2e/. per ounce, the intrinsic value of the sicca rupee is about 25. Okd. ; and by the process adopted in this account, as explained by Mr. Leach, the sicca rupee is made to be worth nearly 25. 4c?. 77. Are you aware that the present rate of mercantile exchange is only l5. lid. per sicca rupee? — Yes, taking a bill of exchange in India upon London. 78. Have the goodness to state the intrinsic value of the Madras and Bombay rupee? — The Madras accounts, as rendered to Parliament, are stated in India in rupees ; those rupees are, in this country, converted into pagodas, at the rate of three and a half rupees for one pagoda ; and then the pagoda is converted into sterling, at 85. the pagoda ; and at that rate the Madras rupee is made to be worth 25. 3d. and i^cgth parts. At the Mint price of silver SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 9 silver in England the value of the Madras rupee would be only Is lid. and 15 Feb. 1830. ji^th parts. The Bombay accounts r.re stated in India in rupees; and the ' ^ rupees in England are converted at the rate of 25. 3d. each; the intrinsic '^- ^- -'^"'■" ' ''"'i- value is Is. lid. and -n^th parts. 79. How are the revenue and other accounts kept at Madras? — In Madras rupees, since the year ISl'J, when the currency was changed to rupees from pagodas, in which latter coin the accounts were previously kept. 80. Is the rupee, since 1819, of the value you have stated, of 2.s. 3d. and TociV^ parts?— That is the value assumed only in our Englisii view of the accounts; the real value is Is. lid. and yijjjoth parts. 81. In what manner are the accounts kept at Bombay? — In rupees. , 82. Those rupees are converted at what ? — At Qs. 3d. 83. What is the intrinsic value ? — The same as in the former case, assuming the price of silver in England to be 5s. Qd. an ounce. 84. How are they kept at Benares ? — They are kept in Furruckabad ru- pees, and they are converted at the presidency into sicca rupees, at four and a half per cent, worse than the sicca, which is about the intrinsic difference. 85. In what coin are the accounts of the ceded province of Oude kept? — In the Furruckabad rupees. I rather think that in the whole of the Bengal territories there are only two descriptions of coin used in the accounts, the Furruckabad and the sicca rupees. 86. In what manner are the accounts of the conquered provinces kept ? — In Furruckabad rupees. 87. In what manner are the accounts of Prince of Wales' Island kept? — In sonaut rupees ; they were formerly kept in dollars. 88. Are the Committee to understand that in using the term intrinsic value, you are obliged to make use of the rule of the English Mint for the relation between gold and silver ? — I took the liberty of asking whether I was to adopt that standard in giving my answers, and I have done so. 89. Is not that rule arbitrary ? — I apprehend it is. 90. What would be the average difference in the computation between the real and the supposed value ? — About 12 per cent, as far as respects Bengal ; but if the Committee take the average of the differences applicable to all the presidencies, about 15 per cent. 91. You have stated two sums as being included in the land revenue ; are there any other sums included under the head of land revenue, or is the Committee to understand that the whole of the remainder is really land re- venue ? — The land revenue merely comprehends two great heads of account, the land revenue, and the sayer and abkarrie ; the sayer is still preserved in the accounts. 92. Under the head of Charges under the Bengal government, how many heads of account are there ? — There are the same heads of account as there B are 10 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 15 Feb. 1830. are on the receipt side, and there are some additional ; there are the miUtary J. C. Md7i//, Esq. ^^^^'S^^ ""^er a separate head. 93. Does the head called Civil come under the general department? — Yes, it does. 94. In the charges are the articles of machinery for the Mint that have been sent out from England included ? — Yes, undoubtedly ; I apprehend that they are not included under the column referred to, but would come under the head of Territorial Stores. 95. In the column of Charges, where £47,426 appear as expended in the year 18-26-7, does the machinery come in that account? — No, certainly not under that column. 96. Will the freight and insurance, and all the expenses attending them, come under the head of Buildings and Fortifications ? — If the Committee refer to the expenses which have been incurred in building the new Mint, un- doubtedly under the head of Buildings ; but if they refer to the expense of machinery, that will come under the Territorial Charges paid in England, which will include the freight and all tlie expenses. 97- Are the Committee to understand that, under the head of Buildings and Fortifications, there is no distinction drawn between military buildings and civil buildings? — The accounts distinguish the military from the civil buildings. 98. Under this head of Mint, £47,000, what is included ? — The whole expense of the establishment, salaries, and loss on refining and melting, and charges of that description. 99. All the European and native servants employed in the Mint are there included ? — Yes. 100. There appears to be a great increase in the charges of the Mint during the latter years of this account as compared with the former ; can you give a reason for that increase ? — I apprehend there has been a great increase of business in the latter years in the Mint. 101. The next item is the Post-office, where there is an increase of £50,000? — I would explain, with reference to that increase, that it princi- pally arose from a transfer from the charges of Political Residents to the head of ♦' Post-office," of the expense of what is called the Political dawks. 102. Do you know whether the Company is charged postage in its com- mercial department in this account? — I am not av.are. 103. The third column is Civil Charges ; will you have the goodness to explain them. They appear in 1809-10 lo be £G00,740, and in the year 182G-7 they appear to be £1,3'21,S24. Explain under what head the several sums included under this word "civil" come? — One of the principal items is the whole of the charge of the political residencies and embassies to native courts. Another principal item is the whole of the expense of public offices and SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 11 and establishments at the presidency, including the salaries of the Governor- ^5 Feb. 1830. General, and tlie Members of Council. Another principal head of expense i ^ ]i77~ii p. is the Nizamut stipends, and other allowances, which we are bound by treaty ' ' ^*'*' *^' to pay. There is another principal head, the Provincial Battalions. lO'i'. Is tlie police of Calcutta included? — All the provincial and Calcutta battalions are included. 105. Are the irregular cavalry included in that? — No. 106. Are the expenses attending the journies of the Commander-in-chief and the Governor-General included in this? — They are included in another head of charges, the Durbar charges, which is also comprehended in these civil charges, which likewise include subsidy to the king of Persia. 107. Does that include embassies sent from the other presidencies as well as from Calcutta ? — Yes, all the political residencies are comprised in the Bengal accounts, and all the embassies. lOS. No part of the charges connected with the collection of the revenue are here included ? — The revenue charges are not included in the civil charges. 109. Under what head does the expense of the College come ? — That comes also under the civil charges. The contributions to public institutions are all included. 110. In reference to the column of Land Revenue, can you give the information v/hether that is a revenue collected in money or collected in kind ? — In money. There is no revenue paid in kind in Bengal. 111. The stamps appear to have been in 1809-10, £9,555; and in the year 1826-7, £67,766. What kind of stamps, or what items, are compre- hended under that? — Salaries and establishment, and paper and all incidental expenses. 112. Does that include any thing for the machinery used in stamping? — No, I apprehend not. 113. Are you aware that the charge upon the stamps amounts to full 30 per cent. ? — I recollect some alteration in the mode of keeping the stamp accounts ; and I believe that a portion of that charge is an allowance in commutation of fees formerly levied on the institution of suits. There was an account to that effect laid before Parliament some time ago, and that account may be continued. I believe the charge of collection of stamp duties to be about 15 per cent. 114. Would it be practicable to furnish an account of the expense of the per-centage of collecting all the revenue in detail ? — Clearly so. 115. Can you account for the very great increase of the revenue on stamps for the last tluee years of this account ? — There has been an extension of stamp duty to Calcutta. B 2 116. Can 12 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 15 Feb. 1830. Il6. Can you account why in the year 1826-7 the receipt was £219,607, -—" and the estimated receipt for 1827-8 is £254,435, being a difference of about ■ •-*'"' ^1- £30,000? — I suppose tliat to have been in consequence of the new system having been only in partial operation in the year 1S2G-7, and it being sup- posed it would come into complete operation in 1827-8. 117- Under what head are the charges for collecting the land revenue ? — Under the head of Revenue. 118. Is that exclusively the charge of land revenue, or does it include charges on any other revenue? — It includes other sums that would not be properly considered the expenses of collecting the revenue; many stipends to rajahs and other persons. 119. Tiiere is only one class of stipends included under civil ? — Only the Nizamut. 120. Can you give any reason to the Committee for the increase of charge upon the collection of the revenue, being from 1809-10 to 1826-7, in the proportion of nearly one-third, and the increase of revenue collected being only about in the proportion of one-ninth? — A good deal of the increase has been caused by new territory, which has lately come into the Company's possession ; undoubtedly the charge of collecting revenue on new territory is greater than on old territory ; but without examining the details I cannot state farther. 121. You were understood to state, that under the head the Committee are now considering, the Benares and the Ceded and Conquered Provinces were not included, that they had all their separate heads in another account? — I understood the Committee to refer only to charges of collecting on the old territory ; respecting which it is impossible to explain the cause of the increase without looking into tiie particulars of the account. 122. What items are contained within the column " Supreme Court and Law," £56,917 in the year 1809-10, and £54,239 in the year 1826-7 ?— The charge of the King's Courts. 123. Does it include all payments of every kind; pensions, if there are any, connected with the Supreme Court? — Yes, it does; excepting only such portions as are paid in England. 124. And there is no charge on account of the Supreme Court in any other department ? — No, there is not, witii the before-mentioned excep- tions. 125. Does it include payments made in England ? — No ; they are brought into account at home, and charged in that shape to India. 126. The next is the head of Suddcr and Zillah Courts; does that include the expense within Bengal, Behar, and Orissa, or any other district? — It includes only Heiigal, Behar, anil Orissa, as far as I can judge from reference to the account at the moment. 127. It SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 13 127. It is observable in the accounts as they stand, that on the Revenue 15 Feb. 1830. side and on the charge side the revenue and charge of the Ceded Provinces and Conquered Provinces are given in gross; can accounts in detail be given •/• C. Melvill, Esq. of both those ? — Yes, clearly. 128. Can you account at all for the expense of the collection of the duties of customs having increased so prodigiously; it appearing tliat in 1809-10 it was £10 per cent., whereas in 1S2G-7 it was £20 per cent. ? — I have no doubt it is susceptible of explanation, but I have not the materials at present before me. 129. Can you furnish the Committee with an account of the outstanding arrears and balances of the land revenue at tiie time of making up the ac- count? — Yes, certainly. 130. Can you inform the Committee whether the "Customs" include the charges of customs on goods imported on account of the East-India Com- pany into Calcutta? — Yes, undoubtedly. The Company, in its commercial character, pays the same duties upon imports and exports as are charged to individual merciiants. 131. Do their stores pay duty? — Not their political or military stores ; all Company's merchandize pays a duty. 132. Are all the charges upon the entrance of articles of consumption into Calcutta included under the head of this charge of Customs? — Yes, they are. 133. Are the Company's salt and other things, when imported into Cal- cutta, entered ? — Yes. 134.. The next head is "Revenue;" will you state what are the items that come under the charges of revenue ? — The charges of collecting the revenue, including the salaries of the members of the Boards of Revenue ; the charges of the Collectors in the various districts ; there are also charges denominated Pulbundy charges ; there is the charge of Revenue surveys; I am not aware at this moment of any other except pensions. 135. Are the expenses of those that are sent to assist the collectors in- cluded " — In the charges of the collectors are included the cost of their establishments, as well as their own allowances. 136. With the Subrundy corps ? — No, they are not included in the revenue charges; which, however, comprise pensions of a very considerable amount chargeable on the revenue, being stipends to natives. 137. Are there any charges on account of education here ? — No ; the pensions are a very material item. 138. Is there any expense attending the abkarrie or license system .- — There is a charge for collecting. 139. Under the next column of " Charges of Ceded Provinces," what is included " — The charge for collecting the land revenue, and other receipts, from the new territory on the Nerbuddah. 140. Under 14 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 15 Feb. 1830. I'^'O' Under the head of Military Charges there is the amount of three miihons and a half in 1809, and five milHons and a half in 1826 ; are those J. C. MelvillyEsq. confined entirely to the pay of the military, or what is included? — All military expenses of every description : all war charges ; the charge of stores bought in India, but not that of stores purchased in England. 141. Do fortifications built come under that head? — No. 142. Have you the means of distinguishing the ordinary from the extra- ordinary military expenses, and of separating the expenses which have been incurred in the wars which have taken place in the period of those accounts, from the ordinary expenses of the military establishment? — In a considerable degree ; but I should fear not altogether. 143. What comes under the head of" Marine Charges?" — The whole of the Master Attendant's establishment, and the whole of the Pilot's establish- ment. 144. Are all buildings connected with the marine included here ? — The buildings are altogether a separate head. 145. The only other item is " Interest on Debts ;" does that include all debts payable with interest? — All interest that is payable on the Indian debt, whether that interest be payable in India or in England. 146. What change has there been in the rate of interest paid in India ? — In 1809 it was eight percent. ; in 1814, six per cent. ; and in 1828, it is five per cent. ; that is the average rate. 147. By whose authority would it be that the increase of debt upon the territorial revenues accrued would be transferred ; for instance, supposing there was a defalcation on the general account to a considerable amount, in any given year, would it be by the authority solely of the Company them- selves that they would transfer that as a debt to the territorial revenue ? — The plan for the separation of the accounts has been framed in obedience to a Parliamentary enactment, and has been approved by the Board of Com- missioners for the Affairs of India, and has been laid before Parliament. I refer to the last Charter Act. By that Act the Home expenses were divided, and instructions were given to the several Presidencies, who framed the accounts on the same principle ; and those have been approved by the Com- missioners under that Act. 148. In your opinion, does that separation, which is directed by Act of Parliament, give a fair means of really judging of the result of the Com- pany's trading as merchants? — With one important exception. The plan provides that the rates of exchange which have been to-day mentioned, with reference to the territorial accounts, shall be observed in that separation ; and the effect of observing those rates is, that the Commerce pays very largely, and the Territory gains very largely. Perhaps I ought to explain to the Committee, that the operation is simply this: the Commerce disburses in England for the Territory, in military pay and allowances to King's and Company's SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 15 Company's officers in England, in the purchase of pohtical stores, and in 15 Feb. 1830. various territorial charges, amounting, on an average, to about three millions sterling annually. The Act of Parliament provides that the Territory siiall -ff ■^lelviU,L.-'ii issue in India, for the purposes of commerce, an equivalent to the sums so issued in England ; and the plan of separation directs that the Commerce shall be repaid its issues made in England, at the rates which have been mentioned. 149. Has any estimate been made of the extent of the injury that the Company suffer in their commercial capacity under that arrangement? — I believe it has ; Mr. Lloyd has, I believe, prepared such an estimate. 150. (To Mr. Lloyd.) — Can you furnish the Committee with an estimate, T.G. Lloyd, Em ). which you consider to be correct, of what the Company suffer in their com- mercial capacity under that regulation with respect to the exchange ? — Yes, I can, up to the year 1829. 151. Do you consider that with the exception of that circumstance which you have mentioned, the separation between the political and commercial character of the Company is fairly stated in the accounts.' — With that exception, I am certainly of that opinion. 152. And that if they were different interests, one acting as sovereigns, and the other acting as merchants, the accounts would show clearly what has been the result in the one capacity and the other ? — Exactly so. 153. Would you be able to produce an account upon any particular in- vestment from India to England, and also from India to China, stating the amount at which that investment was laid in, and the actual receipts ob- tained upon that investment? — Yes, I have no doubt I could. 154. Is there any capital belonging to the Company in their capacity as a commercial company, with which tiiey trade ? — I apprehend that their com- mercial assets constitute their commercial capital. 155. There is no disposable capital in the shape of money for the pur- chase of those investments ? — We have disposable money, cash being one of the assets. 156. Is it not the usual custom to draw on the territorial possessions of India for such investments ? — Certainly not. 157. Do any charges of any kind connected with commerce for providing the investments appear at all? — Not in the territorial; they are stated in the commercial account. 158. Are the Committee to understand, that on no occasion the invest- ments of the Company, as a commercial company, have been made through the medium of the territorial revenues in India? — Since the year 1814, when the accounts were directed by the Act passed in 1813 to be kept under the heads of Territorial and Commercial, there has been a running account between the Territory and Commerce ; the Commerce has paid for every 16 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 15 Feb. 1830, every thing they have received from India, and there is now a balance of T G Llmid Esa "P^^"''^^ °^ 5,000,000 sterling due from the Territorry to the Commerce. 159. Can you give the Committee an account of the trade of the Company to India, and the trade of the Company to China ; the trade of the Company between India and China distinct, with the result of each description of trade? — We can. 160. Up to what period can that be furnished? — As far as regards the home accounts, up to May 1829 : the foreign accounts, as far as the books have been received ; I think we have not received the books of 1827-8. 161. If Commerce now stands creditor to Territory 5,000,000 and upwards, will not the manner in which the repayment of those advances have been valued, as stated before, nearly double the amount? — I have no doubt it will exceed the proportion that the Committee have stated. I think, from some papers I have been preparing, the additional claim upon the Territory, if I use the mercantile rate of exchange in England for bills upon India, would be 7,000,000 sterling in addition to the 5,000,000. 162. When you talk of commerce, do you include the China trade? — The China trade is part of our commercial concern, certainly. J. C. Me/vill, Esq. 163. (To Mr. Melvill.) — Can you inform the Committee of the reason of the extraordinary increase in the department of the Marine; in 1809-10 it was £75,11.7, and in 1827-8 the estimate was to the amount of £239,273? — Much of the increase is attributable to the estimate having included charges connected with the Burmese war; and there was also brought into the estimate the cost of a steam-vessel. 164. Still the increase was much more than doubled in the year previous to the Burmese war? — Yes; but I think that many of the accounts of that expenditure were unadjusted. T.G. Lloyd, Esq. l65. {To Mr. Lloyd.) — Can you state as to the creditors of this large debt of the East-India Company, what proportion is held in Europe and what in India.? — I can furnish the Committee with a statement of a former Accountant-general in Bengal, in which he stated the proportion held by natives and the proportion held by European residents in India. J. C. Melvill, Esq. I66. Are there accounts at the India-House which will show an estimate of the reductions which it is understood are now going on in India? — {Mr. Melvill.) — Certain statements have been received from India, showing the progress of those reductions ; and the Court of Directors have ordered very extensive reductions, which are now in progress ; the nature of those may be stated. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 17 Jovis, 18° die Febniarii, 1830. CHARLES MARJORIBANKS, Esq. called in and examined. ^ ,r n , -r^ r 1- r^ • , • /-il • T^ 18 Feb. 1830. IG7. You are a servant or the Last-India Company in their China rac- tory? — I am. C. MarjorlboKlis, 168. How many years have you been in the Company's service ? — I have ^'^^^l- been seventeen years in the service of the East-India Company ; the greater part of" that time resident in China. 169. In that situation you had an opportunity of making yourself master of the mode in which the trade between China and England is conducted ? — I have had opportunities of acquiring information upon this subject. 170. Is the foreign trade of China confined to one port alone ? — It is so at present. The Spaniards still enjoy the right of trade to the port of Amoy, in the province of Fokien ; but I believe it to be merely a nominal privilege, inasmuch as they seldom avail themselves of it. The foreign trade was in former years open to other parts of the empire, to Chusan, Limpo, and the island of Formosa, from which ports foreigners were gradu- ally excluded by the enactments and oppressions of the Chinese government; but foreign trade is now entirely confined to the port of Canton. 171. Is that trade carried on by many persons, or under what peculiar circumstances is the trade with China carried on ? — The legal trade with China, as far as the Chinese is concerned, is carried on by a body of men called Hong merchants, at present seven in number. 172. Those Hong merchants, therefore, may be considered as enjoying a monopoly of the China trade ? — They enjoy the monopoly of the legal trade as it is at present carried on, and are the only persons permitted by the Chinese laws and government to conduct trade with foreigners. 173. Do you consider that the present system of carrying on the trade is advantageous to China ? — I conceive very great advantages result to China generally from foreign trade. The Chinese government has invariably, from the first periods of our intercourse with them down to the present period, professed to hold it in contempt ; but I believe they are well aware that very great advantages result to the empire generally from the foreign trade. I do not believe that any large sum is paid into the Imperial Exche- quer at Pekin in the shape of government revenue ; I have heard that sum ditferently estimated, but I have seldom heard it stated to exceed two millions of dollars from the whole foreign trade ; I have heard it so stated upon Chinese authority, which is always more or less a questionable authority ; but I believe great advantages result to the country generally from the foreign trade, from the encouragement which it gives to native industry, from the numerous natives employed in different ways in the transactions of foreign C commerce. 18 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 18 Feb. 1830. commerce, and from tlie very flourishing state of the southern provinces of the empire, among which I include the Tea provinces, which owe their C. Marjoribanks, prosperous condition very materially to the foreign trade. I believe the ^'*^' appointments of the government offices at Canton are considered amongst the best in the empire ; the Chinese themselves, in speaking of an appoint- ment at Canton, call it quaintly promothig to Canton, considering it a promotion from most of the other government situations in the empire. It affords to the government officers numerous opportunities of realizing fortunes, which they have not always the means of enjoying, from the inse- curity of property. 174. Has any change taken place in the trade within your recollection ? — Yes, very considerable changes have taken place in the foreign trade gene- rally. One of the greatest changes which has taken place, and which, in my own opinion, will sooner or later afiect the security of our trade, is the enormous extent of the smugghng trade now carried on in China, amongst the islands in the mouth of the Canton river, to a very great extent indeed ; so much so, that if the Chinese government had the inclination, I do not imagine they possess the means of putting it down, at least by any marine force which they have. That trade has originated very much in the opium trade, which used formerly to be carried on at the port of Macao, which was then principally in the hands of the Portuguese ; but by their enact- ments, which prevented other foreigners from engaging in it except natu- ralized Portuguese subjects, which enactments were principally passed with a view of excluding British merchants from any participation in its advan- tages, the opium trade was forced to Whampoa, which may be considered the port of Canton : there it was met by counteracting prohibitions and exactions of the Chinese government. It was then compelled to seek refuge amongst the islands in the mouth of the Canton river, where it is now car- ried on to a very great extent : indeed, not only in opium, but in articles of every description. Great apprehensions have arisen on the part of the persons connected with the Chinese government, of the deficiencies which are likely to arise in their legal duties, as well as in the profits of the situa- tions of the Government officers in Canton, if the trade is permitted to increase in tlie manner in which it shows a disposition to do at present. Such is the corrupt nature of the government, that the lower custom-house officers, who are appointed to put down smuggling, are frequently the persons by whose instrumentality it is carried on. There are other changes whicli have taken place in China during the period of my residence. I think the condi- tion of British subjects in China, with reference to their relations with the Chinese government, has very materially improved wiliiin my recollection, and the Company's trade in tea has increased considerably. 175. Has the situation of British residents in China been improved or otherwise, or their commercial interest promoted by the last embassy to Pekin ? — I think our situation has very materially improved j inasmuch as a very SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 19 very favourable impression was made upon the minds of the Chinese govern- 18 Feb. 1830. ment, and indeed of the people generally, by the late embassy to Pekin, ~ which arose very much out of the principles upon which that embassy was arjori an s, conducted — principles which I have always considered as the most conducive to the Company's interest in China — namely, great conciliation in all inter- course with government, but at the same time perfect firmness and decision in all material points which involved either the national character there, or the interests of our commerce; and our national reputation and commercial interests have ever had a near and intimate connection. I have always seen in China, that what has proved injurious to our national reputation, has had an equally injurious effect upon our commercial interests : 1 believe it will continue to remain so. I conceive that our character has been raised in public estimation in China by the conduct of Lord Amherst's embassy ; and I believe the resistance which Lord Amherst made to the requisitions of the Chinese government, which involved on the part of the foreigners the most humiliating compliances, has raised, at least preserved unimpaired, the British character in China. It is in the very nature of an arbitrary govern- ment to trample on abject submission, and to have its appetite increased by the very means which are adopted for its gratification. By a subservient course of conduct we should only have incurred degradation, without the shadow of an equivalent. In former years I am not prepared to say it was the case, but since I have known China, the representatives of the Com- pany have endeavoured as much as possible to proceed in such a manner in their intercourse with the government and people of the country, as not to sacrifice national character for the acquirement of a temporary advantage. 176. Do you consider the Company's representatives in China to possess a superior influence over other foreigners ? — Certainly I do. 177' From what cause? — From the great magnitude of their trade, as well as from the superior importance which attaches to British residents in China, as in most parts of the world. A knowledge of the Company's power and influence in India certainly contributes to the influence which their representatives possess with the government of China — an influence which perhaps increases the jealousy and apprehension of the government ; while it does so, it increases their anxiety to remain on good terms with us. When I speak of British residents, I mean in any part of the world I have been in, 1 have generally seen British residents fully more respected than those of any other countries, and I think that enters into the causes which produce the estimation in which we are held in China. 178. What general effect, in your opinion, would be produced in China by the opening of the trade to China generally to British ships: — I consider that every increased number of British ships which resort to Canton more than is necessary for the trade, tend to endanger the security of the trade, I mean to say, that every increased resort of British subjects "to Canton, by bringing them more into possible collision with the Chinese than tiiey at C 2 present 20 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 18 Feb. 1830. present are under the existing system, would tend to endanger the security of that trade. I think a number of individuals would resort from this C. Mnrjorihfinhs, country who would enter into very active competition with eacii other in the "*'^' markets of Canton, and that that individual competition would have a ten- dency to induce them to undersell each other in imports, and to give higher prices for the productions of China than are now given by the East-India Company. As the trade at present exists, the Company enter as an indivi- dual purchaser into the market, and have a very great control in consequence over the markets in China, which I do not think individuals would possess ; I think it would be very difficult, in the restricted limits to which foreigners are generally confined in Canton, for British subjects generally to be ad- mitted there ; I think it would be found too small for their active com- petition, and that they would not submit to the required restrictions. I am of opinion that one of the immediate effects of an open trade to China would be to raise the prices of tea in the Canton market, which have remained for many years fixed, by the power of the Company enabling them to resist any attempts which have been made to raise them. I think also that the opening of the trade would very much endanger its seciirity, by the increase which would take place in the foreign smuggling trade ; and I think its general effect would be to lower the English character in the estimation of the Chinese. 179. Have you any means of knowing whether the Chinese authorities and the Hong merchants have formed any opinion of the advantage or other- wise to them of an open trade? — The government have at all times objected to innovation of any kind ; and they have been so long accustomed to the manner in which the trade has been conducted, and to the regular system which they have been enabled to establish, that I think they would very unwillingly exchange it for any other. I have been told by the Chinese with whom I have conversed, that the officers connected with the govern- ment, upon hearing that changes were in contemplation, expressed them- selves inimical to such changes. The Hong merchants themselves, at least the wealthier part of them, are decidedly against any change which would subvert the system on which the Company's trade is conducted. Howqua, the senior Hong merciiant, speaking in reference to the subject, said, he looked with dread and apprehension at an increased number of British ships; which implies an increased resort of British subjects arriving at Canton. I believe the Chinese to be perfectly satisfied with the extreme regularity with which the Company's affairs are conducted, as well as with the good faith which is uniformly preserved by tlie Factory in their several transactions. 180. Do you think that any increased consumption of British manufac- tured articles would take phice if the trade was more open to China than it now is ? — I am not disposed to think so ; and my reasons for not thinking so are, that I have known the (,'hinese markets of late years frequently filled with Enghsii manufiictures upon which prime cost could not be re- alized. I have known several investments imported by Americans and others, Esq. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 21 others, which have sold at a very considerable discount ; and I know that 18 Feb. 1&30. the Company have for many years, and in former times, sustained very great losses indeed upon the import trade into China from England. ^- Marjorioauh.s. 181. Will you explain to the Committee the mode in which the super- cargoes buy and sell generally for the Company in China? — Our dealings take place directly with the Hong merchants, who come to the Factory. We partly hear from them the state of the markets generally, and we as- certain from other sources the state of those markets. All the transactions of the Company's servants are confined to the Hong merchants. Indeed the Company is the only legal trader in relation to the Chinese laws at present in China. I mean that all other foreigners are more or less connected with the illicit trade. 182. Are measures constantly taken for the increase of the consumption of British manufactures in China by the Company? — Since I have been acquainted with China, and on reference to the records of the Company, I have found that the subject more than any other which the Company's au- thorities in this country have urged on their servants in China has been, that they should use every endeavour to extend the consumption of British manufactures in China. I believe that anxiety has not been found wanting on the part of the Company's representatives in China, both from a wish to maintain credit in the estimation of their employers, as well as from a desire to promote the general interests of British manufacturers. If selfish inte- rests can be supposed to enter into the arrangement at all, of course our commissions would increase with increasing extent of sale. The greater the sale the greater our profits. But I believe the anxiety of the Factory to promote the consumption of British manufactures in China originates in superior motives to any arising out of mere selfish considerations. 183. What do you consider the impediments to a great extension of trader — The limits which the Chinese have set to the foreign trade; their confining it to one remote corner of one of the southern provinces of the empire. The articles which we import into China are carried to the northern provinces through the interior of the country. The Chinese have every facility of internal intercourse by navigable rivers and canals ; but such a system is to a certain extent expensive. I conceive, also, the Chinese to have arrived at a very great perfection in their own manufac- tures, some of which are superior to our own, and existed many hundred years before we manufactured at all : perhaps their manufactures have not advanced in excellence for many hundred years. 184. What articles are imported into China in the shape of raw materials in the ships of the Company generally, and by private persons, from India ? — The great import of raw material into China in the ships of the Company from India is cotton from the presidencies of Bombay and Bengal, and a small portion from Madras ; there are pepper and betel-nut, and rattans, and articles of that description, which the Company of later years have left entirely 22 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 18 Feb. 1830. entirely to their officers, and is a part of the trade carried on by country ships. The country trade now in China forms, I conceive, a very impor- C. Marjoribanks, tant branch of the British trade, both from its extent, and from the profits -^•'9- which arise to the persons engaged in it. It is a trade which, 1 believe, the Company's authorities in China have shown every disposition to give every assistance to. They never considered that commerce at variance with that of the Company. 185. Generally speaking, have the Company's representatives encouraged to the utmost the import of the raw material? — Yes, they have done all in their power to promote it. 180. Will you explain to the Committee the mode in which the teas are bouglit for the Company, and how they are examined as to their quality, and tlieir prices arranged ? — The most considerable portion of the Com- pany's tea investment is contracted for by the Company with the Hong mer- chants, in the season previously to that in which the teas are delivered to them. The Hong merchants enter into engagements with the tea mer- chants, and make to them advances upon those contracts. The tea when it is brought to Canton is submitted to the inspection of the Company's in- spectors there, and indeed is subjected to every scrutiny which is supposed to be desirable to ascertain its quality. The Company have, I believe I may say, every leaf of black tea at their option ; I mean every parcel of black tea of any value is first offered to the Company, and is submitted to their inspection previously to its reception. IS7. Have they an equal advantage in respect to green teas ? — We expe- rience competition with the Americans in respect to some of the classes of green teas, and they frequently give higher prices for those green teas than the Company's standard prices. The tea brokers themselves, I mean the green tea merchants, who deliver their teas to the Hong merchants, are a body of men consisting very nearly of 400. They are men of very small capital indeed ; the advances are very much made to them fi:om merchants in Canton. Those persons always show a greater wish to deal with the Company than with individual merchants, from the obvious reason that they consider them a more secure and regular customer, a better customer and a better paymaster. 188. The large amount, therefore, of the Company's trade gives to their agents in China great influence with the Hong merchants? — Unquestion- ably, and with all the government authorities in any way connected with the foreign trade. 189. Has not this influence been very beneficial to the whole foreign trade of the j)ort ? — I conceive the Company's trade to be very beneficial to the foreign trade generally. It has formed a sort of breakwater to that trade; having prevented innovations of the Chinese government, which they are always sufficiently disposed to make upon such privileges as we possess; and having prevented several attempts which have been made to raise SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 23 raise the prices of teas, and to levy exactions upon tlie trade. In some in- ig Feb. 1830. stances, though the trade in China, as far as regards the Chinese, is a mo- nopoly at present, yet the government has endeavoured to make it a still C Marjoribanks, closer monopoly, what they call a Co-Hong, which was to consist of two ^^'^1- or three merchants. The prices of imports and exports were to be fixed by the Chinese government, and that those Chinese merchants were merely to be the agents of the government. This, upon one occasion, was not only attempted by the local government at Canton, but it was confirmed by an Imperial edict from Pekin, directing it to take place. The Company saw the danger which would arise from so closely restricted a system, and that we should be in the hands of the despots of the country, very much in the same way as we are in those of the Siamese and the Cochin Chinese, when we attempt to trade with them at present, and they resisted that innovation. The Company's power and influence in China, and their being able to make great pecuniary sacrifices in consequence of delays which took place, enabled them to become successful, and to prevent that attempt of the Canton government to make it a perfectly close and restricted government monopoly, though it was sanctioned by the Emperor's commands from Pekin. I conceive that was one very important occasion on which the Com- pany have prevented, by their power and influence, an innovation upon trade, which must have proved destructive of profits, not only to themselves, but to the foreign trade generally. 190. When did that take place ? — 1814 was the year in which the discus- sions commenced ; and the previous year the measure had been taken by the government. 191. You stated that the Company resisted; in what way was the resist- ance evinced ? — This attempt to establish a Co-Hong has been made on more than one occasion ; but the occasion to which I particularly allude was during my own residence in the country, in 1814, when an attempt was made to break the junior Hong mei-chants, and sundry other attempts which I need not detail, because they are upon the Company's records, to destroy the advantages we had in our commerce with China. The Select Committee then came to the determination of stopping the trade, and intimated to the Chinese government that, under such circumstances, all amicable relations between the two countries must terminate. This gave rise to discussions, which continued for several months, involving great losses to individuals, and very considerable inconvenience and loss to the Compariy ; but the result was eminently successful. The junior Hong merchants remained as they were, and the Imperial edict was not carried into effect. I conceive that the Company have been generally useful to foreigners, in gradually doing away a number of exactions. When our ships first went to China they were compelled to submit to numerous inconveniences. The guns were taken out of the ships, the rudders unhung, and they were placed entirely in subjection to the Chinese government ; and it was in consequence of the opposition 24 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 18 Feb. 1830. opposition to those exactions that the government were induced to do away with them. Upon all those occasions, I think, when the Company have C. Mmyoribanks, fought their own battle, they have at the same time fought the battle of *^" the trade in general. 192. Have not the supercargoes occasion frequently to address the Viceroy or other authorities upon subjects connected with the British trade? — Fre- quently ; though of late years, perhaps, they have been more infrequent, because their situation with reference to the government has been much im- proved. Of late years we have been left much more unmolested than I re- collect the trade to have been in 1813, and years immediately following. 193. In what language are petitions allowed to be presented? — It has been a regulation, as applicable to foreign trade, established by the Chinese go- vernment, that all addresses to them should be written in the European character. That regulation was made by the government, from a wish to place what construction they pleased upon the addresses which were made to them. In former years, that was the case, and at present it exists in every case, except in that of the Company. The Company's representatives are the only persons in China who possess the right, a right acknowledged by the government, of addressing them in the language of China. 194. Is there a knowledge of the Chinese language among the members of the Factory? — Very many of the members of the Factory speak the language of China. Every encouragement has been given to them to acquire a knowledge of it by the Company, in holding forward prospects of certain pecuniary rewards, as well as of approbation of their conduct. In addition, some men possess anxiety for literary reputation ; but I conceive, a know- ledge of the peculiar language of China to have been more materially pro- moted by Dr. Morrison than by any other individual whom I have ever known in China. He has been interpreter in the Company's employ now for upwards of twenty years; and the great knowledge he has acquired of tiie Chinese language has enabled him to be eminently successful, not only on the occasion of the last embassy to Pekin, but on numerous others, which are almost daily occurring with the Chinese. He speaks the language almost as fluently as he does English. I believe one of the largest sums which has ever been expended upon the publication of a work, has been by the Com- pany, in the publication of Dr. Morrison's Chinese Dictionary, which emi- nently facilitates the acquisition of the language. 1 think the expense of the Compai-y in that work could not have been less than £12,000 sterling ; and that dictionary is at this moment employed by tiie Japanese as a medium of translation into their own language. The colloquial language of Japan is different from the Chinese, but they use the same character. 195. Does Dr. Morrison still receive a salary from the Company ? — He is their interpreter. I mention Dr. Morrison's name, because I tiiink him eminently conspicuous as a Chinese scholar; and I think the atlvantages which have resulted from his services have been very great indeed. He went out SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 25 out as a missionary upon his own account at first, with a view to the objects is Feb. 1830. of his mission, which I believe have not been very successful. ^ . , ^ . ■ , • ^i • r- I , ^'- Murjori hanks, 196. Are there any foreigners resident in China, as far as you know, who Esq. are masters of the language ? — There are none of the foreign residents in China who possess any knowledge of the language, if I except the Portu- guese padres at Macao. I am not acquainted with any foreigner at this mo- ment at Canton who possesses a knowledge of the language, except persons connected with the Factory. The resident merchants certainly have not ; it is not their business ; they go there for commercial purposes ; and it is a language which requires almost the devotion of a life to acquire any useful knowledge of it. 197. Have you any means of knowing whether the American trade in China has increased or decreased of late years ? — Within the last two or three years the trade has very materially decreased. I have an abstract of the American imports and exports; it is taken from American sources of information, and from this I find in 1825-6 the Americans had '%2 ships in China, and that the amount of their imports was 7,700,000 dollars, and their exports 8,900,000 dollars; in 1826-7 the numberof the sliips was reduced to 26, the amount of their imports was 3,800,000 dollars, and their exports 4,300,000 dollars ; in 1827-8 the number of American ships in China was only 20, being less by half than what it had been in 1825-6 ; in that year the amount of their imports was 6,200,000 dollars, and the amount of the exports 6,000,000; and when I left China in December 1828-9, there had only arrived in China 12 vessels. I have received no later account of the amount of the American trade, nor to my knowledge is there any in this country ; but this exhibits within the last few years a very remarkable falling off in the amount of the American trade to China. I may mention, as confirmatory of that fact, that Mr. Edward Thompson, of Philadelphia, who is the largest ship-owner I have known in the American trade connected with China, who had five or six vessels in China, in his deposition which was laid before Con- gress, explanatory of the deficiency in his payment of duties, stated that he had engaged in the Chinese trade with five or six vessels, with a capital of 800,000 dollars, as applicable to that trade, and that he had himself, as an individual trader, paid a larger sum to the American government in the shape ' of duties than he believed any other individual ; I think he stated 14,000,000 of dollars, and at that moment he said he was a bankrupt. I mention him as , being the largest American ship-owner I have known as connected with the China trade. The result of the information which I have derived from the American agents themselves resident in China certainly has been unfavour- able to the profits of their trade generally. Some of the American agents have realized money by dealing in opium and by other means, but I believe those that have engaged in commerce between China and the United States, and in later years between China and Foreign Europe, have not been at all successful ; in some instances very much the reverse. This estimate exhibits a D statement @6 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS 18 Feb. 1830. C. Marjorihanks, Esq. Statement of the American trade from 1804-5 till 1827-8 ; it was copied principally from the book of an American resident in Canton, but it was derived entirely from American sources, and therefore I imagine it to be correct. [The "witness delivered in the statement, which was read, asjbllows.] ESTIMATE of the Total Amount and Value of the Amkrican Exports and Imports. Seasons. 1804-1805 1805-1806 1806-1807 1807-1808 1808-1809 1809-1810 1810-1811 1811-1812 1812-1813 1813-1814-1815 1815-1816 , 1816-1817 1817-1818 1818-1819 1819-1820 18201821 1821-1822 1822-1823 1823-1824 1824-1825 1825-1826 1826-1827 1827-1828 1828-1829 N° of Ships. Imports. Exports. Dollars. Dollars. 34 3.555,818 3,842,000 42 5,326,358 5,127,000 37 3,877,362 4,294,000 33 3,940,090 3,476.000 8 479,850 808,000 37 5,744,600 5,715,000 16 2,898,800 2,973,000 25 3,132,810 2,771,000 8 1,453,000 620,000 9 451,500 572,000 30 2,527,500 4,220,000 38 5,609,600 5,703,000 39 7,076,828 6,777,000 47 9,867,208 9,057,107 43 8,185,800 8,173,000 26 4,035,000 4,088,000 45 8,199,741 7,058,741 40 8,339,389 7,523,492 34 6,315,127 5,677,149 43 8,962,045 8,501,119 42 7,776,301 8,949,562 2G 3,843,717 4,363,788 20 6,238,788 0,559,925 12 vessel s only in China o u 1st December. 198. Is it not understood that the senior Hong merchant, Howqua, has embarked in the American trade on his own account ? — When I was first acquainted with the trade in 1813-14', Howqua was very considerably en- gaged with the Americans. At that period, and some years subsequently, 1 believe the American trade to have been very profitable, at the period when SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. T} when they were acting as carriers to the world generally, when British ships 18 Feb. 1830. were excluded very much from the ports of foreign Europe ; but latterly, for several years, he has entirely withdrawn from his connection with the Ameri- Murjttrihankx, cans, solely upon the ground, I believe, of his having found it very unpro- ' fitable. 1 have that information derived from himself^ that he found his last speculations connected with the Americans not at all profitable. 199. Do you consider that the Americans purchase their teas on equally favourable terms with the Company? — I think the Company have a decided advantage in the purchase of teas over any other competitor, inasmuch as all the classes of black teas are in the first instance submitted to them ; and if they are disposed to give the same prices for green teas as the Americans, I believe the Chinese would infinitely rather deal with them than with the Americans or any other individuals. When the Americans give larger prices, of course the Chinese, proceeding upon common commercial prin- ciples, deliver their teas to them when their security of payment is good. 200. Has the price of teas generally to the Company been increased or decreased latterly ? — One of the advantages which I conceive to have arisen from the Company's system is, that it has kept the teas at a fixed price. An attempt was made in 1819 and 1820, by combinations of the green tea mer- chants, and afterwards of the black tea merchants, to raise the prices of teas most materially. In the case of the green tea merchants, it was a very strict combination amongst the individuals connected with the trade; they met together and expressed their determination to maintain their prices. The Company were equally obstinate, and were not disposed to yield to their terms. A considerable delay took place in the sailing of the Company's ships from China, and of course loss to the Company upon demurrage ; but the Company's possession of capital enabled them to sustain that loss, and the combination amongst the Chinese tea merchants was broken in conse- quence, while the Company had the power of punishment in their own hands. They refused to receive the teas, even though of a good quality, from the tea merchants who had been the principal persons connected with this com- bination, and bankruptcy and very serious losses were tlie consequence to those merchants of the rejection of the tea by the Company. The Company eventually succeeded in maintaining prices at their former standard. That is one particular occasion which I remember where the Company have main- tained the prices of teas. An occasion occurred in 1825, where the Company reduced the prices of their contract teas considerably, one tale per pecul ; they received the teas at reduced prices, by which a saving resulted to the Company of £20,000 sterling per annum. 201. How mucli is a tale and a pecul? — Six shillings and eightpence is the conventional value of a tale-, and a pecul is 133^ lbs. The real value of the tale is not, however, more than 6.y. ; I mean if a tale weight of dollar- silver were melted down, it would not yield more pure silver than that con- tained in 6.*. D 2 2C2. Does 28 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 18 Feb. 1830. 202. Does the American Consul in China possess an efficient control over his countrymen there ? — I do not consider at all efficient for the good con- C. Mdr/oribanks, ^^^^ q£ ^^iq trade : indeed he possesses very little power beyond having the ■*^' right of administering an oath ; and upon some occasions where his power has been called in question, the Americans have made a very unhappy exhi- bition. Upon an important occasion, which was in 1821, when a seaman belonging to one of their ships was accused of homicide, and where, from every enquiry that was made, the man, I believe, was entirely innocent of the crime imputed to him, the Chinese, as usual, demanded that he should be given up. The Consul, who was a man of much good feeling, resisted that demand ; but his countrymen, and the persons connected with tlie trade, and tbe captains of the ships, formed themselves into a combination, as it were, against the Consul, and resisted his wishes. The seaman, who was a Sicilian by birth, was surrendered into the hands of the Chinese. I believe this association of the Americans so far sheltered themselves under the plea that he was not a citizen of the United States, and that they were not com- pelled to protect him. He was surrendered to the Chinese government, strongly against the private individual remonstrances of members of the British Factory. The select committee, as a public body, was not called upon to interfere in it. The unfortunate man, when delivered up to the Chinese, underwent a mere sham trial. He scarcely spoke English (he was a Sicilian by birth) : nobody but Chinese interpreters were present ; his hand was covered with ink, and he ignorantly placed the impression of it upon a paper, which was a confession of his guilt. It was expected, as in other cases of homicide, the sentence would be referred to the Emperor for his sanction : instead of that, the seaman, without any intimation, was carried to the place of public execution three days afterwards, and strangled. I believe that is a case which has tended very much to degrade the foreign character in Ciiina, and which may have a very prejudicial influence upon the foreign relations in China. I believe the American character, in the estimation even \ of the Chinese, was very considerably lowered by that act. By it was in some measure subverted the precedent which the British Factory had on several previous similar occasions succeeded in establishing, by strenuously opposing the execution of the merciless and indiscriminating laws of China. I have known one or two individuals, American merchants, in Canton, who were persons of great respectability ; but their general mercantile character in Chnia certainly stands very far from high — I mean in relation to their commercial transactions. I ought to state, that the American Consul, who had thus proved the inefficiency of his power, was so disgusted with the pro- ceedings of his countrymen, that he immediately resigned his situation, 203. In the event of the trade being open to British subjects generally, do you apprehend that the aj)pointment of a King's Consul will ensure that rcsj)ectability which is now given to the chief supercargo of the Company? — 1 conceive that a person possessing the power of King's Consul alone, unless that power was backed by some other intluciice, would not be successful in controlling SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 29 controlling his countrymen there, or regulating our intercourse with the jg j.vi,. n^^o Chinese. My reason for thinking so is, that the Chinese have on all occa- sions refused to acknowledge any government authority whatever, or any C. Maijoiihan/ix, King's officers. Upon occasions where officers of his Majesty's ships have -'^■'"/• been in China, when discussions have arisen out of their coming into collision with the Chinese, the Company have always requested the Chinese govern- ment to communicate with the officers of his Majesty's ships, stating as their reason that they possess no authority over them. The answer of the Chinese has always been, " we acknowledge no authority in China but the Company's Factory, through whom alone we will communicate." When an English Admiral was in China, which took place in 1808 — when Admiral Drury was conducting his ill-concerted expedition, the same language was held by the government. In former years the Company's Chief did possess the powers of Kin. of persons who are hired by some of the tea merchants to superintend their respective manufactories. The bohea tea is composed j)arlly of the C. Mfirjonlianks, lower grades of the Vu-y-shan tea, which has been left unsold after the ^'■'"l' departure of the last ships of the season, and partly of the tea }j;rovvn in the district of Canton called Wo-Ping. The green tea merchants who come annually to Canton are supposed to be very numerous, about 400, many with very small adventures ; the black tea merchants are fewer in number, but it is believed that there is not one of either party sufficiently provided with funds to be able to trade on his own capital. The Hong merchants advance the tea merchants from 2,000 to 3,000 tales per chop of congo or twankay, by which means the article is procured j formerly, that is until about 1814 or 1815, the East-India Company had for a long period themselves advanced such sums as those above stated to the Hong merchants, by whom the money was transferred to the tea merchant. The plan was abandoned, because partly it was found in a great degree to compel an acceptance of the tea provided, whether good or bad, as the only means of recovering the loan ; and partly from a desire to lessen as much as possible the extent of the East-India Com- pany's property at risk in China. The richer Hong merchants each send a purser or clerk to the black tea country to manufacture for them a few chops of tea, which usually prove the best of the investment ; and they assert that these first class teas do not pay them profit in proportion to the inferior sorts, and that they continue the partial manufacture of the former only to satisfy the Company's earnest demand for them, and in consideration of the larger share of business allotted to them. In an open trade these motives would not exist. 205. Will you inform the Committee of the mode in which the woollens from this country are disposed of to the Hong merchants? — The woollens are disposed of to the Hong merchants under very favourable circumstances as regards charges, inasmuch as what the Hong merchants call the Consoo charges, which are the charges arising out of the operations connected with the expenses of their own Hongs, are not levied upon our manufactured woollens at all. They are, in tlie first instance, delivered to the Hong mer- chants, who have upon all occasions, since I have been acquainted with them, declared that they sustained losses upon the Company's woollens, and they only consented to receive them on consideration of the large purchases of tea made by the Company. Through the influence of the Hong merchants, the tea merchants are induced to receive a considerable portion of those woollens in payment of the teas received from them ; and by that means, I believe, the woollens find their way into the interior of the country with greater facilities than they could otherwise do. 20G. Is there Jiot that confidence in the Company's mark, that a bale of goods so marked will go all over China ? — I believe that has been proverbial for many years ; and I believe not only upon the Company's mark, but the Company's 32 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: IS i'cL>. 1830. Company's seal, whenever that is affixed, they consider it a pledge of safety and security. 1 may say the same of the word of the Company's servant passed C. Mnrjoribmihs, on matters of business ; no written engagements are required. " It is enough hxq. jf j(. jg jf, i^i^g Company's book," has been the common answer of a Hong merchant, when large sums have been owing to him, sometimes to the amount of half a million sterling. 207. Do you apprehend that a bale of goods which had not the Company's mark would experience the same ready transit, and have the same security at- tached to it ? — It would not be received without examination and measurement. 208. Do you believe that a supply of tea could be obtained by the con- sumers in this country at a cheaper rate than it now is, if the trade were thrown open ? — I conceive, with reference to what I have stated as to the competition that would ensue among individuals of the British mercantile community in the markets of Canton, one of the immediate results of that would be to raise the prices of teas. It might be supposed that that might be met by an increased manufacture of teas. As far as green teas are con- cerned, we know that cannot be, for we have never received green teas enough; there has been an increasing demand for green teas, and not a pro- portionate increased supply. With respect to the better classes of black teas, for the reason which I gave in a former answer, that the Hong merchants derive little or no profit upon them, I think they would not be produced ; probably their production would discontinue ; but the inferior sorts of black teas might, I have no doubt, be increased in quantity if there was a decidedly increased demand for them. I conceive that the increase of quantity could only be accompanied by a corresponding deterioration in quality. From every attention I have given to the subject, I believe that so far as the Com- pany's purchases of teas in China are concerned, and the charges upon them there, tea is supplied by them to the English consumer cheaper than it could be under any other system. 209. Were you a member of the select committee at Canton? — I was. 210. Will you be good enough to state to the Committee if you know in what other articles, besides opium, the smuggling trade is carried on upon the coast of China? — I conceive that at present it extends to articles, more or less, of every description ; not on the coast of China, but among the islands in the mouth of the Canton river. 211. Articles of British manufacture ?- I am not aware of any individual instance where smuggling of articles of British manufacture has existed ; but I know nothing to preclude it. 212. Can you state what were the articles of British manufacture imported by the Americans on which you stated that you supposed a loss has been sustained at Canton ? — I understood from American agents at Canton, that losses had been sustained by tiicir imports into C 'anton, both on woollens and on cotton piece-goods imported in American ships. 213. Has Esq. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 33 213. Has there been, during the period of your residence there, any sus- 18 Fel). 1830. pension of the commercial intercourse between the Chinese and all British subjects trading to Canton r — There has. ^'- Mnrjorihankx, 214. Will you be good enough to state on what occasions that took place? — The first serious one was in 1S14. 215. How did that originate ? — It arose immediately from the act of the Company's representatives themselves, who suspended the trade in conse- quence of the conduct of the Chinese government towards them ; in con- sequence, as I think I have stated, of an attempt to establish a Co-Hong system ; in consequence of our ships being fired at ; natives in our employ- ment being seized and punished ; and in consequence of acts which showed an hostility on the part of the Chinese government to such an extent that our amicable relations could not be continued ; and the Select Committee, under these difficulties, themselves intimated to the Chinese government the ne- cessity of suspending the trade. 2lG. When you speak of the Company, you mean the Factory ? — I mean the Company's representatives. 217- How long did that suspension continue? — It continued for a con- siderable time. I cannot say the precise period, but I believe about two months. 218. Did it extend to all British ships at Canton? — In the first instance there was a disposition on the part of the country trade at Canton to con.sider their separate interests. The Select Committee's reply to them was this, that in cases where the Company's individual interests alone are concerned, we do not wish any other persons to be involved ; but in cases which concern the interests of the British trade generally, if a measure has been taken by us to produce an influence upon the mind of the Chinese government, we must make that measure as operative as possible ; and under those circum- stances they suspended the British trade generally. It was a strong measure, and was very naturally objected to by individuals who were suflPering incon- veniences from losses they sustained. Some were very clamorous ; but the Select Committee, who were exercising what they considered a public duty, were not deterred from the performance of it, and the trade was suspended in consequence. An interruption took place for, I think, two months. Mandarins were deputed to negociate with the Company's authorities at Canton ; and the result of that ncgociation was, that the principal points on which the Company insisted were conceded to them, and the trade restored to its former footing. I may mention this, which occurred in 1814", as, I believe, the only instance upon record, as far as I can speak, where the Chinese government consented to enter into what may be considered a treaty with any foreign representatives. 219. Will you be good enough to state the next occasion on which a sus- pension took place of all commercial intercourse between the Chinese and E the Esq. 34 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 18 Feb. 1830. the British ?-^I think no other occasion occurred till the year 1820, when I was absent from China, when a Chinese was accidentally shot by an officer C Mtttjuribanks, belonging to one of the Company's ships. 220. Was the suspension an . act of the Chinese government, or of the Company's supercargo ? — Of the Chinese government on that occasion ; they demanded the life of the individual, and the Committee would not surrender him. 221. How long was the trade suspended upon that occasion ? — For a very short period ; my recollection is, that it was only for a few days. 222. How did it terminate ? — The result was of a very peculiar nature. The day that the Chinese was found killed, a butcher, belonging to one of the Company's ships, had committed suicide ; the Hong merchants heard of the circumstance, and said that it was a very extraordinary thing that this suicide should have immediately followed the murder of the Chinese. There was no anxiety upon the part of the Chinese government then to enter into collision with the English, and still less anxiety on the part of the English to enter into collision with them. The Hong merchants were anxious that no differences should arise ; they mentioned the above circumstance to the Chinese government, and it was eagerly seized by them. A deputation of Mandarins was sent to the Company's ships : they examined the evidence of one or two sailors upon the subject, who I believe said that they thought it was very extraordinary that the butcher should have died the same day as the Chinese, and the deputed Mandarins determined that the butcher was the murderer. 223. You have adverted to the nature and extent of the country trade ; can you state the probable amount of tonnage employed in the country trade from the different ports in India to Canton ? — It is in the public statements laid before Parliament. I have of late years seen about seventy country ships in China annually. 224. Do you think the extent of tonnage employed in the country trade is more or less than that employed by the East-India Company in the port of Canton ? — Some years ago we used to consider the whole British trade as nearly divided; the Company's trade used to be about 20,000 tons, and the country trade about 20,000 tons ; of late years the Company's trade has fluctuated. In 1827 the Company's tonnage was about 37,700 tons, and in that year I consider it was beyond the country trade. I am not prepared to state what the amount of the country tonnage is, but it is very considerable, and I consider it a very important part of the British trade to China. 225. Do you conceive the country trade has been increasing during the period of your stay in China ? — I do. This has chiefly arisen from the enormous increase in the consumption of opium by the Chinese, who now give some 10,000,000 or 12,000,000 of dollars, for what can only be consi- dered a poison. 22G. How SELECT COMMITTEE op rafe HOUSE OF COMMONS. 35 226. How is the country trade carried on ; is it carried on through the 18 Feb. 1830. interference of the Company's servants at Canton ? — The commercial transactions are carried on perfectly distinct from those of the Company. C. Marjorihanks, The persons connected with the country trade have often, when steps have ^'^'i- been taken by the Committee which involved their interests, raised objections; but upon occasions where difficulties have arisen, where the persons con- nected with the country trade became involved with the Chinese, they generally have applied to the Company's authorities. One occasion I remember when I was last in China. A country captain in 182tJ arrived from Whampoa, and mentioned that a Chinese had been killed on board his ship. The Select Committee immediately upon hearing this, instead of waiting till the report reached the ears of government, sent a deputation into the city, and stated that a Chinese had been killed on board a country ship, whose death they considered to have arisen entirely from accident. From the manner in which that statement was made, the Chinese expressed them- selves satisfied. I believe that is one occasion in which, if the Company had not interfered, the country trade might have been involved in serious difficulties. I remember other instances in which the Company's interference has been called for to protect the interests of the country trade. It is going too much into detail to mention those instances. I remember one occasion particularly, where an attempt was made by officers of the Chinese govern- ment to search the country ships lying at Whampoa, which it was considered would be a very serious matter were it ever submitted to. The persons connected with the country ships applied to the Company, who immediately interposed their influence, and prevented a search taking place. 227. Are the Committee to understand that the country trade is conducted at Canton by commercial agents, or commanders of the country traders, without the intervention of the East-India Company's servants at all ? — The operations of buying and selling are ; but on occasions which involve pro- tection, or which involve rights, the members of the British mercantile community apply to the Select Committee, as the only authority that is likely to obtain them redress. They have not the means of addressing the Chinese government, except through the medium of the Hong merchants. 228. Have the Select Committee the means of communicating with the Chinese government, except through the medium of the Hong merchants? — The Select Committee are the only foreign residents who possess the right of addressing the government in the Chinese language. When their ad- dresses are sent in to government, they are sent by the Hong merchants ; but they are scaled with the Company's seal, and delivered in an unbroken state into the hands of the government. 229. Are you aware of any instance in which a personal interview has been given by the Chinese authorities at Canton to any of the Company's servants ? — Several. 230. Upon what occasion : — There have been occasions when the Viceroy E 2 has 36 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 18 Feb. 1830. has accepted entertainments on board the ships of the Company, which is the strongest case that could occur. When the Imperial Legate accompanied C. Mnrjoribankx, ^^^ embassy from Pekin, who is a still higher authority than the Viceroy, '■ he came to the Company's Factory and dined with us. 231. Did he come down to meet the ambassador? — He came in attend- ance on him ; but there are numerous instances where the Company's records exhibit statements of personal conferences with the officers of the Chinese government. 232. The question applies to the time of your own personal knowledge, during the time you were in China, whether during that period you are ac- quainted with any ])ersonal interview having been granted by the Chinese authorities to any of the Company's servants on business ? — Upon occasion of announcing the embassy, a deputation of the Company's servants waited on the Viceroy, and announced to him the embassy personally. We con- ceive it generally better, in consequence of the rigidity of the Chinese forms, to carry on our communication with the government as much as pos- sible by correspondence ; but some of the Chinese, high in rank, frequently come to the Company's Factory and accept of entertainments : they are received on friendly terms. On such occasions we avoid business ; for the Chinese conceive there is great want of taste in speaking to them about points of business, if you ask them to your house. Much want of tact has been shown on some occasions by foreigners, who have marred the good- will and civil disposition of their guests by very ill-timed and unseasonable applications, 233. Was the interview upon that occasion, with reference to the em- bassy, connected with any part of the commercial affairs of the Company? — Of course it was not ; he was the King's authority sent to the country; and as such he was announced. ^-"'234. Were there any commercial matters touched upon at the interview? — I believe it would have been considered highly indecorous if they had been alluded to. 235. Have the Chinese authorities admitted any direct intercourse with the servants of the East-India Company on commercial matters; or are not all communications carried on throua;h the Honii; merchants or throuj^h the linguists? — Unquestionably not. I think I have stated, that in 1811- a de- putation of Mandarins was sent to the Factory for the purpose of adjusting the differences witli the (Company, The Mandarin deputed was a person of very high rank, and lie came to the Factory on several successive days, and discussed the various points till the necessary arrangements were made. There are numerous other instances where we have had intercourse with them. 238. Was he a member of the Canton government; was he a Viceroy? — He was deputed by the Viceroy ; he was a man of very high rank. 237. Are SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. Tj 237. Are you aware of any application Iiaving been made by the Select IS Feb. 1830. (Committee for an interview on any commercial matters or business of any kind? — 1 speak of that case in IS 14- as being intimately connected with the ^' -Vc/>fyo>7//««^.«, commerce of the Company. On minor occasions, if there are differences, '^''' for example about landing cargoes from ships, the Company's servants con- sider it much better to avoid requesting an interview u])on such occasions, and send their addresses to the Hoppo, who is the head of the Customs. I believe men in high official situations in China, as elsewhere, would consider it a very great inconvenience if personal interviews were demanded on oc- casions of minor importance. 238. Are you aware, at any period during your residence in Cliina, of an application having been made by tlse Select Committee, or any of its members, for an interview with the Viceroy of Canton or any constituted Chinese authorities, on the commercial affairs of the East-India Company? — I think this in 1814 was a demand which comes under the description contemplated in the question ; it was a demand for an interview, and an ad- justment of their commercial relations. There have been, however, several other occasions. 239. How was that application answered ? — By the deputation of a Man- darin, a man of high rank. 240. What took place with that Mandarin who came to the Factory ? — There were other Mandarins who came with him, and the affairs in discus- sion were satisfactorily adjusted. 241. The Chinese answered that demand by sending a deputation of Man- darins to the Factory ? — Yes. 242. Are you aware of any instance in which any of the sailors in the ships carrying on tiie Indian trade to China, or any of their supercargoes, or any one connected with them, conducted themselves at Canton in such a manner as to occasion any interruption to the commercial intercourse between the Chinese and the British flag at Canton? — The India ships are manned by native sailors almost entirely, who are very different indeed from our English sailors. 243. Are you aware of any interruption having been occasioned between the Chinese and the British, by any of the crews of the ships carrying on the trade between British India and Canton ? — Not during my residence. I have known instances which I have seen upon the Company's records. The Lascars are a very inoffensive people, who would submit to insults of dif- ferent kinds. They have none of the bold intrepidity, or careless and reck- less character of Lnghsh sailors. I think the extraordinary matter is not that so many differences have occurred with the Chinese, but that so ^q\\ have occurred, which I attribute very much to the excellent discipline of the Company's ships, and the character of the officers by whom those ships are commanded. 244. Are 38 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 18 Feb. 1830. 244. Are the sailors of the Company's ships permitted to visit Canton now on Uberty ? — No. C. Marjoribanks, Esq. <24t5. Are the crews of the country traders, the Lascars, permitted to visit Canton on hberty ? — I have seen a great number in Canton very frequently drunk in the factories. 246. But you are not aware of their having occasioned any disturbance to call for the interference of the Select Committee, or to occasion any in- terruption to the commercial intercourse between the Chinese and British flags ? — No. 247. You have adverted to the period when Admiral Drury was in China ; were you there yourself at that time ? — No, I was not; it was in 1808. 24S-9. You stated that the Chinese refused to hold any intercourse with Admiral Drury, because he was not a servant of the Company, being a King's officer, whom they did not acknowledge, — do you state that as a fact? — I state that as a fact. It appears in all the Chinese proclamations I have seen relative to the expedition to take possession of Macao, that the Chinese, when applied to by Admiral Drury, said, we acknowledge no authority but that of the East-India Company. The Select Committee said, the Admiral is a distinct authority, over whom we have no control. The answer of the Chinese was in very violent words, saying, that the men-of- war came there, and took ships off their coast, and they did not wish to have their visits ; and they had now come and taken possession of the island of Macao ; and that till Admiral Drury withdrew from Macao, and till the troops were re-embarked, they would hear notiiing. 250. Are you aware that, upon that occasion. Admiral Drury came up to Canton from the second bar, where his ship was lying, for the purpose of having an interview with the Viceroy, having been promised by the Hong merchants that the Viceroy would see him ? — As to the promise of the Hong merchants that the Viceroy would see him, that I cannot speak to. I should be disposed to question the fact ; but I have a perfect recol- lection of these two instances, and I have very deeply lamented them ; for I think the expedition of 1808 is one of those unfortunate occasions in which the English character has been exhibited to very little advantage in China. Admiral Drury came up to Canton and insisted upon an interview with the Viceroy. The Viceroy refused him that interview, when he sent an intima- tion to the Viceroy that he would be in his palace in the city in the course of half an hour. The Viceroy declined a visit offered in such unusual terms, and said he siiould not come, but that he must go back to his ship. Ad- miral Drury did not persevere in his expressed intention, but returned to his ship. He, on the second occasion alluded to in the question now put to me, ordered the boats of his own and the Company's ships to be manned and armed, and to proceed up the river and break through the line of Chinese vessels which were moored across from one bank to the other. Ad- miral SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 39 miral Drury pulled up in his boat in front of the Chinese h'nc, to address 18 Feb. I83(i. the Chinese admiral, through the medium of a Portuguese padre, who acted as his interpreter, and wlio at that moment was very much disinclined to ^- i^Jftrjorih'inks, such a duty. After being fired at for some time, one of Admiral Drury's /' men was wounded, when he ordered the signal to be made for the boats to attack. The signal was not observed, and was ordered not to be repeated. He then declared his intention not to force the Chinese line, and returned with the boats under his command to the ships. I believe Admiral Drury was a man of courage undisputed, but that he was destitute of that cool and deliberate judgment which was essential to the success of such an under- taking as that entrusted to him. The Company's chief in China at that time expressed his approbation of Admiral Drury's conduct in not forcing the Chinese line ; but I am disposed to think that that attempt ought never to have been made, or that the end in view should have been accomplished. There is nothing in our whole intercourse with China so necessary as to keep our ground when it is once assumed. The expedition ought, in my opinion, never to have been undertaken. 251. Are you aware that upon that occasion we gave up the whole of the ground we had taken possession of? — I think it is one of those lamentable occasions in which the English character was exhibited to great disadvantage in China. A pagoda was built by the Chinese upon the occasion, to com- memorate the victory they had obtained over the English admiral : they cannot aiford to lose an opportunity of that sort. 252. How long was the trade interrupted at that period at Canton ? — I was not in Canton at the time. I can only speak from information I have derived from the Company's records, but I should say six months. 253. You have stated that the principal import of raw material from India to China is cotton ; are you aware whether China does or does not produce a great quantity of cotton itself i' — It does a very considerable quantity of native cotton ; the cotton from which nankeen is manufactured is a cotton which I believe is peculiar to China. 254. Can you state the probable quantity imported into China from British India? — The estimates of trade which are annually laid before Par- liament shew much more accurately the quantity than I can speak to from recollection. 255. Will you be so good as to state how the Dutch conduct their business in China; is it a free trade, or is it a company's trader — It has existed as a company within my recollection, but I believe at this moment it is a free trade. There was lately a Netherlands Company established, but I do not know to what extent that company proceeded. There are two resident supercargoes there, and a consul ; and I think the Dutch, within the last few years, have had about three or four ships in China annually. ^5Q. Are you aware that the Dutch trade with China is now entirely an open 40 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 18 Fell. 1830. open trade; as much so as the American or any other trade; and that the Netherlands Company is merely a commercial company having no peculiar C. Mnrjorihaiihs, privileges in the China trade r — I understood that upon the dissolution of ■ 5'- the old Dutch East-India Company the trade was then thrown open. 257. How is it conducted in Canton ? — By resident agents. 258. Does that resident agent do the business of individuals? — I believe the Dutch consul is permitted to engage in private business. :;■.- 259- Do not those who trade between the Netherlands and China carry on their trade with such agents, and in such manner as they think most for their interest ; are they restricted to any particular agent in Canton ? — I do not know what regulations may exist in Holland as to that point ; but as far as I have seen their transactions in China, I am not aware that they are restricted. I do not speak from accurate knowledge of the fact, but I believe a Dutch ship may be consigned to a British resident agent in Canton. 260. Then, in fact, they may carry on their business in such manner as they please ? — I believe they are not restricted by the government in Holland. 261. Do the French send any ships to China? — Of late years, I think, we have had one or two small ships annually. 262. Do the Swedes and Danes, or any other European nation, carry on any trade with China ? — The Swedes and Danes formerly had larger ships in the trade than the East-India Company; but now the trade has ceased almost entirely. 263. Do the Russians trade with China? — The Russians are excluded from the trade at Canton. During the time I was there, one Russian ship came, which was excluded, upon the ground that the Russians possess a trade by land, and that it was not desirable to admit them to trade by sea. 204. Do not some of the Mediterranean ports trade to China? — I remem- ber what was called the Austrian Frigate, but she was a trading ship in China. 2u5. Is there any Austrian factory ? — No, not now. 2G(). Is there any trade with the Brazils? — Some trade does exist between Macao and the Brazils, but I believe latterly to very inconsiderable extent. The Portuguese at one time at Macao possessed a very lucrative trade. 2G7. Are not those several trades that have been mentioned all carried on without any particular company existing at Canton ; are they not all Iree trades carried on at tlie will of the persons transacting them ?— Of those that have been mentioned there are only two now existing deserving the name of trades, and these are inconsiderable ; viz. the Dutch and Portuguese ; the latter of whom have never traded to the port of Canton, but who carry on trade direct from Macao. Some Swedes are still resident in China, but they have little or no commercial intercourse. The Dutch have certainly a trade, and SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 41 and the number of their ships annually has been, I believe, about three or 18 Feb. 1830 four, of 600 or 700 tons. — 268. Have the Dutch got into any difficulties with the authorities at ' '' /\„' ' ' Canton ? — Not of late years ; but in former years, certainly. '^SQ. Within the period of your residence there ? — During the first period of my residence there the Dutch did not enter into the trade of Canton ; the Dutcli supercargoes remained in China, and their salaries were very regularly paid in Paris. Until the declaration of the independence of Holland they had no trade, and I think they did not send any ships to China till some years afterwards. 270. You are aware that the Dutch China trade was formerly an exclusive monopoly like our own, but has been entirely thrown open since the last war? — I am aware of that fact ; but I understood the dissolution of the Dutch Kast-India Company had arisen from their very embarrassed situation. 271. Since the trade has become a free trade, has any particular difficulty arisen with the authorities at Canton in carrying it on, within your recollec- tion ? — No ; it has been to a very limited extent. 272. What does the British Factory consist of; how many persons ? — We have twenty; consisting of a Select Committee, supercargoes, and writers; and besides that, there are an interpreter, two tea inspectors, two surgeons, and a chaplain. 272. (a.) Of how many does the Select Committee consist? — Sometimes of tour, sometimes of three ; at present it consists of four members. 273. The business, it is presumed, is conducted by the Select Committee, and the remainder are clerks in the execution of the business ? — Very much so. 274. Do not the gentlemen of the Factory and the Company's servants reside only a small portion of the year at Canton itself? — Yes, six or seven months, 275. Is it not the fact that the Chinese government do not permit them to remain there the remainder of the year ? — There is an old Chinese law that foreigners shall leave Canton at the expiration of what is considered the shipping season ; but it is a law that has fallen very much into disuse. The Company's servants themselves very frequently go to Canton during the summer months, and they have had ships loading during the summer months ; and some of the British merchants reside there the whole year. 276. Do they ever permit you to come into the town ? — They do not allow us to go within the walls of the town. 277. But you are confined to a small suburb for the transaction of the business ? — Yes. 278. What other British residents are there besides the Company's factors? — There are some mercantile houses, some of the members of which are men of very great respectability. F 279. Is Esq. 4>2 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 18 Feb. 1830. 279. Is that a new state of things, or have there always been independent houses there? — There have always, within my recollection, been houses esta- C.Maijoribanks, bijshed there. There are more agents now than there used to be, but they are not all men of the same credit and character. 280. Does the Factory consider itself as having any authority over the English merchants settled there ? — So far as appears by reference to Acts of Parliament, I think the Company's authorities have a right to interfere with the residents there, in case of their conducting themselves in a manner to injure the general interests of trade. That authority has been rarely ex- ercised by the Committee. 281. Do you consider yourself as having power to send persons away? — It is not very clearly expressed ; but I think the Company's authorities would exert it if they saw that British interests required it. As far as my views of the Act go, I think they would be borne out by it. 282. Can you refer to the Act of Parliament which you suppose to give you the authority you mention? — I cannot immediately refer to it by its title. 283. Do you suppose it to be derived from the charter of tlie India Com- pany granted by Parhament ? — It is an Act of Parliament ; whetlier it is a separate Act, or a clause of the charter, I cannot say. The Act, as far as I remember, gives the Company's representatives control over British subjects trading to the Emperor of China's dominions. 284. Will you be so good as to state who transacts in China the English private trade that goes from India ; is it done by the independent houses you have mentioned, or is it in any proportion done by the Company's servants? — At present not by the Company's servants at all ; in former years it was. 285. Are the Company's servants prohibited from engaging in it ? — They are now prohibited from being connected with private agency. 286. So that the private agency is entirely in the hands of independent houses ? — Yes, and in the hands of supercargoes, many of them Parsees, and captains of ships. 287. In fact, the private traders put their business into whose hands soever they please ? — Yes. 288. You have stated that the houses that are established are very re- spectable, and quite capable of transacting business of that description ? — Unquestionably, they are houses of great respectability. There are men who are members of those houses who are men both of character and credit, sustaining the character of British merchants respectably and properly. 289. You have stated that the smuggling trade in China has become very extensive ; has not the increase of that smuggling trade a tendency very much to injure the fair trade ? — I think it has a tendency to do so, iu as far as articles smuggled into the country that evade duty can be sold at a profit, when articles which pay government duties cannot. 290. Is Esq. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 43 290. Is not the opium trade in China, which you state to exist to the extent 18 Feb. 1830. of 13,000,000 or 14,000,000 of dolhirs a year, entirely an illicit trade ? — — - Entirely prohibited by the Chinese government. ^- Marjortbanks, 291. Is it not, therefore, a trade in which the India Company, through its servants, can take no interest whatever? — The Company, I think, are inte- rested in the trade so far as regards the Indian revenue. They prohibit their servants in China from having any connexion with it. 292. Would you not consider it as derogatory to the character of the Company for its servants to be extensively interested in the smuggling trade of the country ? — The Company have always professed to be legal traders in China, and to conform to the established laws of trade in China. 293. Does not a considerable portion of that high character which you state the Company to bear with the Chinese government, arise from their con- viction that the Company would not meddle with a trade of that description ? — I think it does. 294. But if the tendency to the smuggling trade is suffered to increase to any great extent, would not the Company, in consequence of debarring itself from that species of trade, carry on a much smaller portion of the general trade of China than might be carried on by persons who have not the same scruples ? — The two distinct trades are transacted with two distinct classes of people : one the legal merchants ; the other, persons who are disclaimed by the government, and declared to be illicit traders. 295. While the Company carry on the one trade, which you say is inde- pendent of the illicit trade, are not the subjects of this country in a great measure debarred from entering into that other trade which is open to the rest of the world ? — Tiie subjects of this country are the persons who derive the principal profits from that trade, who are the British agents in India, and the persons immediately connected with the opium trade. I conceive the country trade to form a very important branch of the British trade; and I conceive that trade to exist under the protection of the Company's trade, inasmuch as if there were no legal traders in China, which I have stated the Company to be, I think it would remain a question with the Chinese govern- ment, how far it would submit to be deprived of its revenue, and whether it would not be induced to take very strong and very precipitate measures, perhaps, for the exclusion of foreigners altogether from its ports. The Chinese attach a value to the foreign trade ; yet there is no country in the world so independent of it, from its successful agriculture and extensive inland commerce. 296. Do you think it is possible that a country having enjoyed for so many years an immense foreign trade as China has done, by which it has exported to such an extent its domestic produce, could suspend, without a total destruc- tion of its internal economy, that trade with foreigners? — The power of that suspension rests with the Imperial government of Pekin ; and, as I have F 2 stated, 44 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 18 Feb. 1830. stated, I believe the revenues coming direct into the Imperial treasury from the foreign trade are not large, they have therefore no distinct interest in the C. Marjoribanks, trade. How far the Imperial government at Pekin would be induced to ^■*^' consider the general interests of the country I am not prepared to say ; for the Chinese government acts upon principles so diametrically opposite to those which regulate the governments of civilized Europe, that it would be difficult to hazard an opinion of what might be the result of such a state of things as that contemplated. 297. Has not the Chinese government, in its conduct towards foreigners who have attempted to fix themselves in their harbours, shown itself a shrewd government, acutely understanding its own interests ? — I think that the Chinese are a highly intelligent people, remarkable for their industry and perseverance ; but I think they are oppressed with one of the most corrupt governments that ever weighed down the energies of a people. 298. You stated that the Company have been exporting woollens to China at a loss, and that it has been a losing trade ? — In the years from 1819-20 to 1828-9, the average invoice of woollens imported into China from England has been £821,680 per annum ; therefore, notwithstanding tlie very heavy losses previously sustained for the twenty-six preceding years of £G4,O0Oper annum, the imports of the Company into China have not been lessened more than about £125,000 per annum. The Company's average loss at present has, I think, been reduced to about £17,000 sterling per annum upon their general investment. 299. Have you any doubt of the fact, that the woollen trade of the Com- pany is a losing trade ? — It is so at present, and has in former years been still more so. 300. Does the statement you have made include the freight and all other expenses ? — As far as freight is concerned, the woollens have been exported to China under very great advantage ; for I believe it will be found that a comparatively very small charge for freight has been made by the Company on British exported manufactures, with a view to facilitate the consumption in China. 301. As the article of tea, which is brought from China, is a very bulky one, it is presumed that the freight of any manufactured goods sent out can- not be very important, as the China ship would otherwise go nearly empty ? — That would depend upon how it is charged ; but the Company have always gone upon the principle of making a very small charge of freight upon Eng- lish manufactured goods. 302. Are you aware that the price of cloths sent out to China has in this market been reduced more than one-half? — I iiave been told so ; I have no knowledge of the prices of cloths in England. 303. Are you aware that for some years past foreigners have been cariying on a considerable trade in those very woollen goods from this country to China ? SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 4.5 China? — I have understood that some American ships have cleared out from IH Feb. 1830 Liverpool and from London to China. — — - 304. Are you aware that it appears in the Paper before Parliament for "aV/. the last three years, that the Americans have taken out between 800,000 and 900,000 dollars' worth of woollen goods to China ? — I have seen the statements made : I have no means of acquiring knowledge as to their accu- racy. 305. Do you suppose that they would have continued that trade so stea- dily as it appears to have been continued, without its having been a profitable one to them ? — I do not know whether those manufactured articles are the property of American merchants, or whether they are the property of British merchants. If they are the property of British merchants, who have no means of disposing of the manufactures except the hazard of a distant market, I think they might be disposed to embark in a specula- tion which even had not answered before, rather than keep their goods on hand. 306. Would not the British merchant be prohibited by law from havin"' any interest in a trade of that description ? — I do not know. 307. If it should be shown that the American has been carrying it on for his own account, and that that trade has been steadily going on for some years past, is it not presumable that it has been a profitable one ? — I am not disposed to think so, from having received other information from American agents in China, who told me that their consignments from this country have generally been unprofitable. 308. If it should be the case, that the American or foreign merchant has carried on a trade of this description with profit, when the Company have been carrying it on with loss, would not that prove that their trade has been, in this article at least, better conducted than that of the Company ? — It might not prove that it was better conducted, for it might arise from the circum- stances I have stated, of some of tiiose goods having been smuggled into China, having evaded the Chinese duties. 309. If the tendency of the trade in China is to get into the smuggling line, will not the Company, acting upon different principles, and being from its circumstances unable to enter into that trade, be a disadvantage against persons who have no scruples of that description ? — If the question put to me contemplates the subversion of tlie Company, I think we should be all smugglers in China together, and there would then be no legal trade in China. I do not know how far the Chinese would submit to that. The ultimate result would, in my opinion, be very prejudical to British commercial interests, of which I consider the Company's to be only a part. 310. Will you have the goodness to explain what you mean by legal trade in China, when you say that if the Company cease to trade as a Company there would be no legal trade carried on there ? — I applied the term legal trade 46 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 18 Feb. 1830. trade to transactions in China, and I use the term in relation to the Chinese •— — laws, from the circumstance that the English laws do not extend to China C. Marjoribanks, ^j. ^\\ . apd therefore tl^e term legal trade, as applied to the trade in China, '*^" can only have reference to the laws of China. When I speak of legaltrade, I speak of a trade conducted in conformity to the laws of the country, whether those laws have reference to residents or to their commercial transac- tions. 311. Is there any reluctance on the part of the Hong merchants to trade with individuals ? — Certainly not, with individuals of respectability and credit. 312. You have stated that the black teas are generally offered first to the Company, and that of the green teas the Americans have frequently the first option ? — 1 stated that the Company have the pre-option of all black teas. With respect to green teas, they are submitted to the Company's inspection also, and to their choice ; but a competition enters on the part of the Americans with the Company in the article of green teas. On some occa- sions, the Americans being disposed to give higher prices than the Company, they get the teas ; but the tea brokers always express a wish rather to deal with the Company, upon the principle, that they consider the Company's security better than the security of an individual. 313.* Upon what credit are the purchases made from the Chinese? — There are no regular periods of payment. The teas are generally paid for in the course of the season ; sometimes earlier, sometimes later. Sl't. You are not in the habit of being in debt to any considerable extent to the merchants there? — The Company, for several years past, have insisted upon their servants keeping a clear account with the Hong merchants in all matters connected with the Company's interest. Upon a late occasion which occurred of the bankruptcy of a Hong merchant, the Company were credi- tors to a very trifling amount. 315. Does not the preference you have had in the black teas arise from the circumstance of your being much the largest customers for that description of tea ? — The best customers and the best paymasters. 316. Do not the Americans carry on the trade in small vessels ? — Yes, they do. I think the average I have made, upon looking at the American ton- nage, has been in vessels from 280 to 300 tons. 317. Are not the expenses of the port very heavy ? — Yes, they are ; and they fall much heavier upon small ships than they do upon large ships ; and consequently it was found much better by the Swedish and Dutch to have large ships, as well as from their superior adaptation to a tea cargo. 318. Can you give a detail of all the charges made upon a ship of 6OO tons, including fees and all disbursements? — The duties upon a Company's large ship are about 4,300 tales. The port duties on a smaller ship are, comparatively with its extent of tonnage, much heavier. 319. Is 18 I'Vb. 1830. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 47 319. Is not that portion of the port charges called a present, the same on all vessels, great and small ? — It consists of 1,950 tales, and is the same upon large or small ships. c. Marjorifm»ks, 320. Does not that give a very considerable advantage to the Company's ^''^^f- large ships over small private traders? — It does. 321. Would not the temptation to smuggling be irresistible if the trade was carried on in small vessels ? — I imagine that individuals who do not much respect the laws of the country, will not consent to pay duties which they can evade by acting in opposition to those laws. 322. Is the smuggling carried on among the Ciiinese by what are called outside merchants? — This term is applied in common to all merchants not members of the Hong ; some of them are smugglers, some mere shopmen. 323. Is not the trade vvliich is carried on by the American merchants, chiefly with the outside merchants? — It is, I believe, to a certain extent. I should say that a large portion of their trade was carried on with the Hong merchants. 32k Do not the Hong merchants give permission to the Americans to trade with the outside merchants ? — Ti)e outside merchants are prohibited from trading in teas or other staple articles ; but the Hong merchants frequently connive at the trading of the outside dealers, by permitting shipments to be made through their Hongs. That is done by the poorer class of Hong merchants. 325. You stated that the American trade of later years has fallen off; are you not aware that the American trade is in part a carrying trade ? — It was a very great carrying trade some years ago ; I believe that carrying trade has been very much limited of late years. 326. Is not the carrying trade subject to great fluctuation, inasmuch as it depends upon the policy of other countries ? — That is a question of a general description which I am not prepared to answer; but a part of the American trade which appears to be declining is their direct trade between China and the United States. 327. Would not the interference of the Dutch in the tea trade necessarily aflfect the carrying trade of the Americans, in so far as the supply of tea to Holland was concerned? — Certainly. 328. It appears that the years 1826-1827 exhibit a considerable falling-off in the American trade ; still are you not aware that there has been a con- siderable increase in the American trade, commencing in the year 1814, and terminating in the year 1827-8? — I am aware there has been in some years an increase. 329. Are you aware of the averages which have been struck in the Papers presented to Parliament upon that subject? — I am. I conceive that the Americans have been increasing in wealth and population, sufficiently to account for a general increase of trade. 330. Do 48 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 18 Feb. 1830. 330. Do not you think there maybe some circumstances to account for the falling off of the trade in 1826 and 1827 of a temporary, and not of a (,'. Marjnrihavhs. permanent nature? — I believe the Americans have been very much over- ''"'"?• trading, both to continental ports in Europe and to the United States, and that very considerable losses have been sustained upon those consignments. 331. Are not the principal tea provinces in China maritime provinces? — The province of Fokien is the black tea province, and the province of Kiang- nan is the principal green tea province, both maritime provinces. 332. Is the tea generally brought from those provinces to Canton by sea or by land-carriage? — Entirely through the interior of the country. It is prohibited by Imperial edict to bring it by sea. The Chinese have attempted to bring it by junks; but the Imperial government of Pekin, being appre- hensive of being defrauded of the duties which arose from the transit of teas, have prohibited the trade by sea altogether. 333. Are you aware that there is an exportation of tea from the tea pro- vinces to the islands of the Eastern Archipelago? — I have understood that there is an export to a limited amount for the supply of Chinese settlers there. 334. And that it is also brought to Sincapore? — I cannot speak with any personal knowledge of what is brought to Sincapore. 335. You have stated that the tea provinces were very much benefited by the export of their teas to Great Britain ? — I stated as an individual opinion, that I conceived that the native industry was very much encouraged in China by the extent of foreign trade ; and of course the tea provinces were materially improved by the flow of capital into them. 336. Are you aware of the amount of the population in the tea provinces ? — It varies in the different provinces ; the whole population of China is computed now at 140,000,000. I believe the southern provinces of the empire the most populous. 337. Have you heard any estimate at Canton of the number of persons connected with the tea trade? — -I have heard many estimates, but it is impossible to place reliance upon such information. 338. If the Company's establishment at Canton was to cease, and the trade of Canton was to be carried on by private merchants, and those mer- chants were to carry on indiscriminately a lawful and an illicit trade, do you think that the whole trade might be endangered ? — I do. 339. You have stated that one of the articles which is smuggled into China is opium ; is not that smuggled by individuals of every nation, who provide themselves with it in India ? — It comes to China principally in British country ships, which are the traders between India and China. 340. Is it not purchased exclusively from the India Company ? — It is pur- chased at the East-India Company's sales ; besides which, there is smuggled Malwa and Smyrna opium. 341. So SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 49 341. So that, although the East-India Company will not smuggle opium 15 Feb. 1830, into China themselves, they sell it knowingly to parties that do smuggle it , ~T~. in? — The persons connected with the Company's interests have knowledge ^tooorihunht, enough to know that it goes to China, but they conceive their connexion ' with it to terminate with the sale in India. 342. In making a calculation of the profits and loss of the East-India Company's imports into China, how is that calculation founded where barter takes place : you were understood to state that the woollens and other goods were bartered against tea? — I stated that the Hong merchants required the tea merchants to take them in return for their teas. The C'ompany formerly used to barter with the Hong merchants : of late years they have required the Hong merchants to give money prices for every thing. 343. Is it taken as a mercantile account upon tlie cost price in England, the freight and charges, &c. being added to it, and the result taken from that? — The usual number of mercantile charges which are made in invoices enter into the account. 344. Is any commission charged upon it as received by the Company's agent there? — I believe our commission is charged upon the exports from > this country in the Company's invoices. It is paid upon the sales in China and England at the rate of two per cent. .345. Is that upon the gross sales ? — I believe so. 846. Upon the goods out and upon the goods home ? — Yes. 347. Upon the purchases of tea is your commission of two per cent, charged also? — Upon the sales of tea we receive two per cent, commission ; three per cent, commission pays not only our commission, but the whole expenses of the Company's establishment in China. There are some commercial charges which we call charges on merchandize, and expenses for the transit from the factory at Canton to Macao and the factory rent ; but two per cent, we receive in the shape of commission as our own allow- ances. 348. Is that two per cent, allowed upon the sale of teas in England, or upon the prime cost at Canton ? — Upon the sale in England. 349. There appears to exist a considerable difference between the value of the imports into China and the value of the tea exported by the Company from China ; how is that difference made up ; is it not by the Company selling their bills in China? — The Company draw annually in China upon their Bengal treasury, to the amount generally of 2,000,000 of dollars and upwards, which affords a remittance for the proceeds of opium and cotton in China to British merchants, who generally very gladly avail themselves of the Company's paper to remit their proceeds to India. The Company's tea investment is therefore provided by the proceeds of the sale of English manufacture in part, and the productions of our Indian possessions. G 350. You 50 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 18 Feb. 1830. 350. You have stated that the supercargoes are paid a commission of two per cent. ; are there not certain deductions from that, to the amount of at l: Mnrioribfinks, least one quarter per cent.? — The salaries of our tea inspectors, our surgeon, ^-^1- and our chaplain, and certain allowances to the senior officer commanding the Company's ships, and payments to the retired servants of the Company, ( come under the two per cent., and wliat we call in China the European establishment, which is the expenses of European servants connected with the factory. .Sol. When is it that you receive this two per cent. ; how many years is it after they are shipped from China? — We do not receive our first payment from the Company till the expiration of two years after the work is done for which tliat payment is a remuneration ; and the whole payment is not completed under four years, which makes our nominal greater than our real allowances. S5'2. Is not the delay in that respect occasioned by the Company keeping the tea of one year for sale in a subsequent year ? — I do not know if that be the cause. 353. If the Chinese government were to exclude both the Company and private traders from the trade in tea at Canton, are you of opinion that that trade could be carried on elsewhere to a beneficial purpose through any other channel? — The question would contemplate the Chinese entering themselves into the trade with their own native vessels. It has been a prin- ciple of the Chinese government altogether to discourage the natives of the country fiom being in any way connected with foreign commerce. The question is one completely of speculation ; but I shoidd think very great difficulties would stand in the way of the trade being carried on to any great amount in Chinese vessels to the islands of the Eastern Archipelago. 354*. Do not you think that the Hong merchants, having a large stock of teas in their hands, would be prompted by tiicir own interests to send those teas to other parts, when they could not sell them at Canton ? — There would be great danger in sending them, inasmuch as the Chinese native vessels are of such a cumbrous description that they are very unseaworthy. 355. Would you have the same security for the good quality of the teas? —Unquestionably not ; there could be no security in such a trade. 356. Is not the production of teas capable of being increased, according to the increased demand for it? — I think, to a certain extent, of black tea, though not of the best kind, but not of green. My reason for thinking the production of green tea cannot be increased is, that there has been a greater demand for it than the increasing supply of the Chinese has been able to keep up with. 357. Are you aware of any reason peculiar to the country creating an impossibility on the part of the Chinese to proportion the supply of green tea to the demand ? — I imagine it requires a considerable outlay of capita]. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 51 capital, which the Chinese have not at command ; and it involves a specula- ig Feb. 1830. tion into which the Chinese merchants do not seem disposed to enter. 358. Can you say whether the demand for the English woollen manufac- ^' ^I<^rjorihavks, tures in China is capable of being increased according to the increased sup- '^' ply? — I conceive that if our manufactures could be introduced into the northern provinces of the empire, the demand for them would decidedly in- crease ; for they are tiie cold provinces, where woollen manufactures would be principally used. 359. Ave there any insuperable obstacles to the introduction of our woollens into the northern parts of China? — The ports of China being hermetically sealed against us for many years. 360. Have you found the British manufactures have been in greater de- mand when the price has been low in China ? — I suppose that low prices generally produce an increased demand ; but I cannot answer that question distinctly, from any recollection of the circumstances. 361. With respect to British manufactures in general, Avhen the price is low in China do you find that they are in more general request than when they are high ? — I believe that men will buy things more readily when they are cheap than when they are dear : but I cannot answer the question from recol- lecting the circumstance. SQQ,. Do you know whether the consumer, or the retail dealer, makes a larger demand upon the Hong merchant when the price is low than when the price is high ? — When prices were high, I have always heard the Hong mer- chants complain of having many unsold goods in their warehouses j and I have always heard them say they sustained losses on our woollens. 3QS. How many English establishments may there be at Canton ? — We send home an accurate list of the English residents every year j but I cannot state the precise number at present. 364. Have they increased of late years? — There have been more agents j I think the houses of respectability have not increased. 365. How many consuls are there at Canton ? — There is an American consul, a Dutch consul, and a Dutchman who, I believe, has the diploma of French consul. 366. Do you know what the private houses of agency in China charge for conducting a trade ? — Five per cent. G2 52 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: Lunce, 22" die Fehruarii, 1830. JOHN FRANCIS DAVIS, Esq. called in and examined. 22 iVI). 1830. 367. What opportunities have you had, of a peculiarly flivourable nature, to ,. ~~ „ enable you to form an opinion respecting the Chinese, their trade, and with /,s, ,sq. j.ggpgf.j. |.Q ^i^g relations of this country with China? — I have been seventeen years in the Company's service ; and I think it probable that the attention I have paid to the language and institutions of the country may have assisted me in forming an approximation to a correct opinion regarding them : be- sides, I travelled for six months through the interior of the empire. 368. Were you not also a member of the Select Committee .- — Previous to my last leaving Canton I was. 369. What circumstances, in your opinion, in the character of the Chinese, and in the nature of their institutions, are opposed to an extended inter- course with foreign nations ? — Fhey are a decidedly anti-commercial people : they have a particular objection to increasing their intercourse, in any way, with Europeans, and I should think more particularly with the English, oti account of our close approximation to their frontiers towards Tartary and in Ava. 370. Has the condition of British merchants and of the British trade im- proved in China since your recollection, and more particularly since the last British embassy to Pekin ? — It certainly has. The Returns, which I believe are now lying on the table of the Committee, show that for the last ten years there is an increase of 5,000 tons in the Company's shipping, when compared with the nine years preceding ; that is to say, that for the last ten years the average has been 28,000 tons of shipping, and for the nine years previously the average was only 23,000. 371. Is the foreign trade considered of real importance to the Chinese, or is their government independent of it? — I should think their government is as independent of it as that of any country in the world : they have, besides, a decided objection to an increased intercourse with foreigners, and diminish as mucli as possible their intercourse, by laying heavy duties upon foreign manufactures. 372. From what circumstances does the influence which the British repre- sentatives appear to possess over the Chinese government and their commer- cial delegates arise? — I should think, in some measure, from their moral respectability, in having no concern whatever with smuggling ; and I should also think tlieir influence arises, in a great measure, from the value and im- portance of tlicir trade in amount. 373. What advantage does tlie Company derive from the superior class of large ships employed in their China trade, and from the discipline maintained in SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 53 in those ships? — They derive several distinct advantages from the superior ^2 IVI). lH3(t. class of their shipping. In the first place, they pay less, in proportion to the tonnage, at Canton in the shape of port charges : in the second place, these J. F. DfiiU\ /•>/. ships are better adapted to the stowage of teas ; they stow more in proportion to their nominal size. There is another advantage derived from the superior class of their shipping, in regard to sea-risk. Since I have been in service, seventeen years (and I believe for many years previously), not a single homezvard-hound ship of the Company has been lost. We may consider the M number of homeward-bound ships in that time 400 ; so that that makes the risk as nothing to 400. I speak in reference to the teas, and therefore in reference to the homeward-bound. The observation is correct in reference to them, and would not be in regard to the others. This advantage is shown, in practice, by the small premium on the insurance of the Company's ships. There is another decided advantage derived from the superior character of the Company's shipping : it is independent almost of convoy in time of war, and it is well known that their fleets have beaten off French line-of-battle ships. 374. Do you allude to the celebrated action in which Commodore Dance had a large fleet of Indiamen, and repulsed Admiral Linois? — Yes. 375. Do you know the amount of property that was then in jeopardy if the French had been successful ? — No, but I believe it is a matter on record. If it were the whole fleet of the Company, it would amount to one year's value of the Company's trade. 376. Were there not also under the charge of Commodore Dance a large number of private ships also of very great value? — I believe there were, as far as the Straits of Sunda. With regard to the objections raised against the Company's superior class of shipping on the score of its freight, I would say, that the charge on account of freight at present is only 4f/. per pound upon all the teas ; and taking it for granted that the private traders might purchase their freight at one-half of the Company's, that brings the difference to 2c?. per pound. Against this '2d. per pound you must take all the advantages I have stated as an off-set ; you must take the smaller port charges paid by the Company ; you must take the very advantageous insurance account of the Company ; their independence of convoy ; and the superior stowage of their ships. 377- Do you chance to know what freight the Company pay for the stow- age employed in the trade to our North American colonies r — They pay less than the Americans ; about £9 or £10 a ton, I believe. The American ton is one-fourth smaller than ours, and therefore in proportion to the nominal price they pay more. 378. Are you able to state how much the £0 or £10 per ton is per pound weight of tear — The £9 or £10 must not be charged upon the tea; not more than one-half of it should be charged on the tea, because the ships are taken up to export British manufactured goods to Canton ; and therefore the rA EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AI FAIRS : '^•2 1 Lb. 1830. tlie freight must be divided between the outward voyage and the return voyage. It is, accordingly, only £4. lO*. or £5 upon the tea. ./. /•. Dans, Esq. ^^^^ ^^.^ ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^ ^^^^.^ |^^^ niuch that would be per pound of tea from China to North America? — It is something under a penny per pound on black tea ; on green tea I iiave not calculated. 380. Do the Company derive any advantage from the regularity of their demand for tea, and from the regular contracts made by them with the Hong mercliants in conformity to this demand.^ — I should think that they do. A crop of tea is not like a crop of turnips or a crop of corn, which may be pro- duced witiiin the year, according to the demand? The shrub requires a certain time to come to perfection, and the regularity of the demand certainly tends to encourage its cultivation, to produce a supply in due proportion, and to save the growers from severe losses ; because if there were a sudden diminution of the demand for a year or two, after a rapid previous increase, they would probably, a great many of them, be ruined ; since it is not so easy to convert the cultivation of tea into the cultivation of any thing else ; I therefore hold, that a regular demand for tea insures a regular supply, at the same time that it keeps up the quality. A fluctuating demand, probably, would be more pernicious in the case of tea, than in the case of almost any other thing in the world. 381. Practically, what effect has this regularity in the demand for tea pro- duced upon the price of it? — It certainly keeps up tlie quality relatively to the price. 382. Has the price of tea increased or diminished latterly? — I would rather say it has been prevented from increasing ; an increase which would have been inevitable, from the very great advantages which, in the absence of the Company, the united body of Hong merchants, all living within a few doors of each other, would derive from their union against promiscuous traders. 383. What impression, in your opinion, would be produced upon the Chinese generally by throwing open the trade to British merchants generally ? The whole body of smugglers at Canton would rejoice. The government would, in the first instance, view it with jealousy, as they view every change ; and when they came to lose their revenue, they would view it with hostility. They have already, in consequence of the extraordinary amount of smuggling (not only relatively to contraband articles, such as opium, but in the case of articles that pay duty), lost so much, that they have issued edict after edict directed against those individuals and those nations who principally partake in this smuggling trade; and it is impossible to suppose that they would go on ad hi/inihim in their endurance, or consent to the conversion of the whole trade of Canton into a smuggling intercourse. 384. Do the representatives of the Company possess any peculiar advan- tages in their intercourse with the Chinese, and in their means of access to the SELECT COMMITTEE of tiii: HOUSE OF COMMONS. 55 flie local government of Canton ? — They possess one very essential advantage, 22 leb. 1830 in being the only foreigners who are allowed to have a direct communication in the native language with the government, which has been expressly denied •>'• !'■ I'avis, Esrj. to all others, and only conceded to the Company, on the jiart of the govern- ment, because they coidd not resist it. They also derive great advantage from the attention which has been paid to the language and to the institutions of the Chinese; to the knowledge of their laws especially, as well as to the !j general character of the people ; an advantage which is not, as far as I know, possessed by any other traders at Canton. 385. Do any other foreigners in China besides the English possess a com- y petent knowledge of the Chinese language, or avail themselves of its use in \/ their intercourse with the government of China ? — Certainly none of the traders in China. There are a few Catholic priests who study it for the purpose of propagating Christianity; but it has not, to my knowledge, ever ' been used by any European traders, except the Company's representatives, in their written intercourse witii the government and with the people. * 386. Do the Chinese government recognize the Company's Factory as a respectable and more official body of persons than any other persons in China? — They consider and treat them in a manner very different from the treatment which they show to other Europeans. Tiiey have done, in respect to the Company's representatives, what they never did in respect to any other traders ; they have admitted them to personal conferences on equal terms. In the year 1814, I was at all the conferences which were conducted by Sir George Staunton, to which the Mandarins came in full state, and met us as equals to all intents and purposes. I have myself been engaged in personal interchanges of visits with the Mandarins on friendly terms. They would not certainly adopt such a mode of conduct towards other Europeans at Canton, in my opinion. 387. T)o you conceive that the throwing open the trade to China would extend the consumption of British goods there ? — My opinion is decidedly that it would diminish that consumption. The importation of European goods by the Americans, of which so much has been said in this country, appears, on examination, not to have exceeded one-fourth of the quantity imported by the Company and their officers : the average seems to have been about 800,000 dollars, while the latest average of the Company is about ^800,000 sterling; and I should ascribe this actually small quantity on the part of the Americans (although that has been very much exaggerated in England) to two or three plain reasons. In regard to the Company's officers, they pay no freight, and they also pay a very small insurance, in conse- quence of the superior character of the ships ; and they can accordingly alford to introduce European manufactures cheaper than the Americans. In regard to the Company, they have thought it necessary, on account of the clamour raised in this country, to submit to actual losses ; and it is not likely that individuals would, from any patriotic motives, endure the eame losses. 388. What 56 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 22 Feb. 1830. 388. What obstacles exist, in your opinion, to the increased consumption of British goods throughout the empire of China? — I would first state the J. J-.J)avis,J£sq. anti-commercial spirit of the Chinese, which leads them to cliarge heavy duties on foreign importations. For instance, the duty on woollens is from about l5. to Is. id. a yard ; the duty on raw cotton is about 6s. a hundred- weight ; and I would say, tliat the circumstance of British manufactures being generally calculated for a cold climate, while Canton is placed at the very southern extremity of China, 1,200 miles distant from the northern, would also be an obstacle to the consumption of British manufactures. Then, again, the Ciiinese have laws directed against the use of strange and foreign things, and on all occasions involving expense, particularly such as festivals, marriages, public and domestic occasions of rites and cere- monies, they are bound to use the things which in material and in fashion are consonant with established and ancient usages ; and even in what they buy of us, they buy principally those things which admit of disguise ; for instance, 1 the little demand they have for our white cottons is principally because they can dye them some other colour, and thereby hide the circumstance of their being foreign. 389. Is there only one port in China into which foreigners are permitted to trade ? — Only one. I have heard that the Spaniards have a nominal admission to another port, that of Amoy, which they have been obliged to abandon from the impossibility of coping with the exactions of the IVlati- darins. 390. Have any eflforts been made, to your knowledge, by British residents or other foreigners, to open a trade at other ports besides Canton ? — Not within my recollection. 391. Is not the Company's mark a passport for their goods from one end of China to the other? — Yes; and in travelling through the country with Lord Amherst, I sav/ written up in Chinese characters " Company's cloth." I would observe, with regard to the title " Company," that it is the only- respectable term which the Chinese apply to foreigners ; they generally call them by names which are scarcely to be repeated : the original Chinese expression, Koong-sze, means a body of public functionaries. 392. What is your opinion with relation to what would occur to goods not having the Company's mark upon them, as far as the interior trade was concerned ? — They certainly would not have that passport. 393. Are you in possession of any information as to the manner in which the Americans purchase their long ells and other cloths which they procure from this country? — I am not so well acquainted with what occurs in England on that subject. 394. What has been the success of the free trade of the Americans and others with China ; has it been a beneficial trade or otherwise '•' — I under- stand it has produced bankruptcy to a very considerable extent in America, which SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 57 which is a circumstance referred to in the President's message to Congress. 22 Feb 1830 He said, that the principal defalcations in the American revenue had arisen " in the department of the customs, from the bankruptcies which occurred J.F.Davis, l.sq. among those engaged in the Eastern trade ; and that the best way to guard the government from such losses in future was to give it the first claim against the estates of its insolvent debtors. 395. Has the American consul any control over his countrymen at Can- ton ? — He has not a great deal of control over his countrymen ; he seems to be simply a commercial officer. 396. Is any deference or respect paid to him by the Chinese authorities? — Very little indeed. The Chinese do not understand recognizing foreign dignities and authorities. 397- When Admiral Drury was in China was he respected, and his autho- rity acknowledged by the Chinese authorities ? — No ; they treated him, in fact, with the greatest contempt, which in some measure occasioned him to lose his temper, and to behave with what I should call imprudence. 398. Are you aware of an order from the Admiralty to prohibit any Bri- ' tish man-of-war from going to the Chinese seas, unless under circumstances of the greatest necessity, such as want of water? — Yes; and I believe that order was made specifically in consequence of the mischief that had been produced by men-of-war going to China. 399. Were you in China at the time of the occurrence referred to ? — I was not in China at the period of Admiral Drury's stay there ; but I was in China during very similar mischiefs, which occurred in the case of Captain O'Brien, in 1814. Captain Richardson's case also occurred during the period of my service, though I was not actually on the spot at the time. 400. Are the British seamen in the Company's ships under better control than other seamen who come in other ships ? — Decidedly. There is a spe- cies of police established at Canton by the Company ; a circumstance that has arisen out of the exigencies of the case, in consequence of the mischief that resulted from the sailors coming up without sufficient control to Canton, where they gave occasion to several homicides. A most efficient system of police has been established on the spot, with reference to British seamen, constituting the commodore, or senior officer of the Company's ships (the Company's president is the chief), a sort of magistrate, with perfect control over the men, and the power of sending them down to the ships, or of punish, ing them when they deserve it. 401. Do you consider that if the trade was thrown open to ships of all descriptions, there could be a control over the seamen similar to that which is exercised over the Company's own sailors? — I should think that neither the officers nor the men could be under the same control as in the Company's ships ; because these constitute a sort of approximation to the footing of men-of-war, and therefore the discipline in their case is certainly less lax than on board private ships. H 402. Is J. F. Davis, Esq. 58 EVIDENCE OiV EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 22 Feb. 1830. 402. Is there not a great trade from the ports of India to China? — Very large. 403. What class of persons navigate those ships which are called country ships ? — The men are chiefly Lascars. 404. Are they under pretty good control ? — They are under the Com- pany's control entirely ; perhaps less so than their own ships, but still under the Company's control. 405. Can any ship go from India to China without a license from the Company? — I fancy they are licensed by the local governments. 406. Does not that give an authority to the local governments to place, in some measure, under the control of the Company's authorities in China the sailors who navigate those ships ? — The captains sign a penalty bond, obliging themselves to conform to the orders of the Select Committee. 407. Have you been in any of the Company's settlements in India? — I have not visited them. 408. Will you explain to the Committee in what way the contracts are made of tea, and also the sales of woollen goods, with the Hong merchants? — With regard to the woollen goods, the merchants have a decided objection to them ; and they certainly incur a heavy loss on some of them ; they accordingly take them from the Company only because they are obliged. They take them in shares, proportioned to the quantity of contract teas which each of them supplies to tlie Company ; and they take a considerable portion of them only because the Company obliges them. I have seen accounts which evidently proved that the merchants were severe losers by the bulk of the woollens, particularly the long-ells. With regard to the teas, the contracts are made annually about the month of February for the ensuing season ; and they do not extend to the whole of the intended investment, but perhaps to about two-thirds of it, the remainder being left to be supplied from the offers which may be made after the contracts have been filled. 409. Have the Company the first offer of all the black teas that are grown in China? — I believe they have of all. 410. How do they stand with relation to the green teas? — The bulk of the green teas are also offered to them in the first instance. There are one or two very peculiar descriptions of tea, small in quantity, which they do not import ; the young hyson, I think, is one suited particularly to the Conti- nental and American trades. 411. Is it your opinion that an increased supply of teas could be raised to supply any indefinite demand in China? — I should think that as the quantity increased, the quality would deteriorate. The quantity might be increased, probably, very considerably beyond what it is at present ; butcx))erience has sliovvn that it is impossible to keep the quality up in proportion as the quantity of this produce or manufacture increases. We have found several of the best species of black tea almost vanish, as the whole demand of the Company has increased ; SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 59 increased ; and the importations of the Company into England, so far from 22 Feb. 1830. starving the market, liuve so much over-suppUed it, that there has been con- siderably above a miUion annually rejected at their sales at the upset price. "'■ ^- Davis, hsq. 412. Do you know how many years it takes to bring tiie tea plant to maturity? — I cannot speak very positively on that subject; but 1 should think, as it is a shrub, two or three years would be necessary, or more. 413. Has there not been very pressing orders from tiie Directors to the supercargoes, when you were in China, to send an increased supply of twan- kay tea ? — Yes. 414. Has there not been a difficulty in obtaining that article ? — I believe there has. 415. Was there any limitation of price fixed, or was it ordered to be bought if it could be bought at all? — It was, 1 fancy, to be purchased at any rate. It was stated as being mud) in demand at home. 416. With respect to the many foreigners who are at Canton, do you sup- pose that the acknowledged authority of the Company's representatives is advantageous to them ? — I should think in two respects, politically and com- mercially : politically, they have certainly preserved foreigners from the degradation to which they would have been reduced by the haughty dispo- sition and conduct of the Chinese government ; they have stemmed that torrent ; and, commercially, they have certainly kept down the prices of teas. 417. What effect would, in your opinion, be produced, politically speaking, by the Company being divested of their exclusive privileges in the eyes of the Chinese ? — They would undoubtedly lose in the eyes of the Chinese. The Chinese would infer that they had abused the trust confided in them ; and, in fact, they must necessarily lose all the advantages which they at present possess, for they would entirely lose their present character. 418. That is, the Company would lose ? — The Company would lose, and also British subjects, as the Company represent British subjects. 419. Would private merchants, trading to China, receive the same protec- tion as they now do, under the wing of the Company's representatives? — I should say they would be reduced to the level of the subjects of other nations who frequent China. 420. What protection do you suppose that foreigners now receive from the acknowledged authority of the Company ? — I would say that they have derived a general advantage, from the character of Europeans in general having been kept up in the eyes of the Chinese ; for the Chinese cannot draw those distinctions which we do : they consider all nations wearing hats and coats to belong to one general class, of which they certainly acknowledge the English to be the head. 421. Have the Company's representatives extended their protection over foreigners whenever they have had an opportunity ? — Have they interfered, H2 as GO EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 22 Feb. 1S30. as far as they could, to support the rights of other nations, European and American? — No particular instance occurs to me, at present, of their having J.i^,/;«m,£.,9. doneso. 422. In the case of the murder of a Chinese by an American, were you in China at that time ? — I was not in China. I have heard that there was some disposition to take the poor man's part displayed by individual British sub- jects, but that the Chinese would not have any thing to say to them. 423. Have you any means of knowing in what way any contemplated change of system is viewed by tlie Chinese, particularly by the Hong mer- chants, and by any of the constituted authorities? — The Hong merchants would have reason to rejoice in a change, if viewed in regard to their gain ; for they would certainly be able to do with private traders what they cannot do with the Company ; they would dictate prices to individuals ; while at present, on the contrary, the Company dictate prices to them. But they would not, I fancy, willingly purchase this advantage at the heavy risk which they would incur, in the event of the trade being opened, arising from their responsible character. They are responsible for the acts of all Europeans; they are security for the ships : and the risks of fine and imprisonment, and even of corporal punishment, arising to themselves, from the acts of private merchants and their sailors, would be so great, that they would not willingly purchase the advantage of trading with foreigners generally on superior grounds to those which they at present enjoy, at the price of the risks which they would incur both of the person and of the pocket. 424. What is the Committee to understand by the Hong merchants being security for the acts of private merchants? — The Chinese government will not deal with any ship till some Hong merchant has consented to be answer- able for the conduct of every individual in that ship. In the case of private ships, much delay has arisen from no Hong merchant being willing to become security, while each of them in his turn readily becomes security for the Company's ships as they arrive ; with the exception, I would add, of the chief Hong merchant. His more numerous avocations, as representing the whole Hong, and as conducting the affairs of the whole Hong in their official intercourse with the local government, led him to petition the Com- pany to be exempted from this duty of being security for their ships. They call him in their language the general merchant ; that is, the principal organ of official intercourse between the local government and foreigners ; and on account of the time and attention which this required from him, he petitioned to be exempted from the business of being security for the ships. He was exempted on that ground, when he had explained to their satisfaction the reasonsof his application. 42.5. Can you state in what year that exemption took placer — I think it was in the end of 1827, or the beginning of 1828. 426. Were you rightly understood to say that the Chinese object to foreign- ers, and particularly to the English, on account of their power being in the nei£j;hbourliooil SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. (J I neighbourhood of the Chinese empire? — I would not say object; I would say -j-j R!>. itao. that they are more inclined to he jealous of the English, and of course on that account, on account of the English having got so much political influence in -^ ^'- li'n"'' /«/• Nepaul, as well as in Ava. 427. Were you rightly understood to say, that the Company are preferred because they do not smuggle, and on account of the greatness of their trade? — Certainly ; those circumstances must raise them in the estimation of the Chinese. 428. Is not the smuggling generally and chiefly carried on through the country-trade ships from India to China ? — I should say through the country trade and the Americans : both the country traders and Americans smuggle opium. 429. Do the country-trade ships receive licences from the local govern- ments in India r — To the best of my knowledge they do ; but I cannot speak to that as coming within the immediate range of my own knowledge. 430. Are the Chinese aware that those country ships come under the license of the East-India Company from India to China? — They regard them gene- rally as British ships, and they do not trouble themselves further. 431. Do they consider them as under the authority of the East-India Com- pany ? — Not farther than as British subjects. They cannot consider them as so immediately under the authority of the Company as the Company's own ships are. 432. Do not the country-trade ships give bonds to the East-India Com- pany? — I believe they give bonds to the East-Indian governments at the Pre- sidencies from which they sail. 433. In the event of any misconduct on board of one of the country ships, to whom would the complaint of the Chinese authorities be addressed? — It would be addressed to the British chief, if that occurrence happened within the river ; but we do not recognize the country ships that stay outside of the river, which do not enter the river at all, but lurk amongst the islands for the purpose of smuggling opium. 434. You stated that the price of freight on tea from China to England is about 4c?. a pound ; and you stated that the price of freight from China to Canada was about \d. per pound : can you explain the reason of the difference between the rate of freight of tea from China to Canada, and tiie rate from China to England r — In the first place, the high freight of the Company's ships to China arises from their being a superior class of vessels ; and the high charge on the tea arises from more of the freight being laid on the teas, that is, upon the homeward cargo, than upon the cargo outward. 435. Is not it true, that a different class of ships is employed in the trade between Canton and Canada than that which is employed between Canton and England ? — I should say that the higher freight on the tea that comes home to England arises partly from the shipping being of a superior class ; it G2 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 22 I'cb. 1830. it arises, secondly, from a larger proportion of the high freight being charged upon the tea that comes home to England, than on the British manufactures J. /•. Daris, Esq. ^i^at go out. 436. Did the calculations you made of Id. per pound for freight embrace the £9 or £10 per ton, which you calculate those ships to cost? — I take one- half of the freight charged for the voyage, assuming the freight paid to be £9 or £10 per ton. 437- During your residence in China, have you had occasion to know that the East-India Company has exported a considerable quantity of Sysee silver, that is pure silver, from Canton ? — No, I cannot call to mind any single in- stance of that within my service, nor before it. 438. Are you aware of their having exported bullion in any other shape? — I believe they did once within the seventeen years that I have been in their service. 439. Was it in any considerable quantity ? — It is so long ago (I do not think it is within the last twelve or thirteen years), and I cannot speak to the quantity. 440. Is not the export of buUion in any shape strictly prohibited by the laws of China? — It is ; but the Company, of course, when they did export that quantity, applied for and obtained a regular license. 441. The Committee are to understand that the Company did apply for and did obtain a license from the Chinese government for the exportation of that bullion ? — I was not in the Committee at the time ; but I should cer- tainly say that they did apply for and obtain that license. In fact, I can speak to their actually having applied for and received such a license, when they have exported bullion. 442. Are you aware that, with respect to a considerable quantity of the opium which is smuggled into China, the chests in which the opium is con- tained bear the Company's mark ? — I never saw a chest of opium in my life, and therefore I cannot speak to it. 443. As a member of the Select Committee, have you not had occasion to know officially that a considerable quantity of that opium was sold by the East-India Company's authority in India, and a license granted to British subjects to carry it to China ? — We cannot possibly be ignorant of that. The Company enjoys a monopoly of the growth of opium in India, and therefore they must be the sellers of it ; but I am confident the Chinese are perfectly ignorant of a circumstance which is foreign to their empire. 444. Are the Committee to understand that the members of the Select Committee are cognizant of the fact that that contraband article is brought to China under the license of the East-India Company's governments in India ? — They cannot be ignorant of a fact so generally notorious to En- glishmen. 445. Can you state how many of the Company's and China ships were captured SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 63 captured during the late war? — That I cannot state. Whatever may have 22 Feb. 18.»). been the number, it all occurred long previous to my entering the service. 446. Do not you think that an increased demand for tea at Canton -'-'"'■'•"•• '■"'l would naturally tend to produce an improvement in the quality of the article ?— I should say, from the experience of the past, that an increased demand for tea would produce a decided deterioration of quality. 447. On what grounds do you form that opinion ? — Entirely from the cir- cumstance of its being a very delicate produce, requiring peculiar soil and climate and situation ; and that in proportion as the quantity manufactured is increased, and particularly if the demand is rapid, the quantity that is hastily produced, in order to meet that rapid increase of demand, invariably produces a deterioration in the quality. 448. Since when has it been deteriorated? — Since the demand has been increased, I have before stated that the Company's tonnage had in the last ten years increased on the average 5,000 tons per annum, when compared with the nine years preceding that period. 449. From the experience you have had travelling in China, can you inform the Committee whether the profession of a merchant is not looked upon as of a very inferior nature? — I should say, that though by the institu- tions of the country it is generally considered as inferior to that of scholars and some others, yet still that in China, as in every other part of the world, wealth must carry with it a very considerable share of consideration ; and that the circumstance of wealth in the Hong merchants (who also possess some official character) gives them a certain degree of respectability and con- sideration, even among the officers of their own government: so much so, that I remember Sir George Staunton, after the discussions of 1814, which he conducted personally, and at which I was present, told me that he was subsequently invited to meet one of those Mandarins at dinner, at the house of a Hong merchant. So much influence has wealth, even in China, in conducing to respectability. 450. Is the American consul himself personally engaged in trade? — I should think it is the only source from which he can derive a livelihood ; for I believe he receives no salary whatever. 451. Do you consider the Hong merchants generally to be wealthy men ? — Decidedly ; I siiould say that those who have escaped ruin from the illicit trade must be wealthy men. I would hardly make any exception at present. 452. How many are those who have escaped that ruin? — There are at present seven, and I think there were ten. I would say that geney^ally they are wealthy men, and one or two of them men of incalculable wealth; nobody knows how rich Howqua is. 453. Are you able to state whether it is not a fact that it is contrary to court etiquette for a merchant to be admitted into the Imperial presence at all? — I am not aware of any such regulation of the government. 454. How 64. EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 22 Fth. 1830. 454. How were the supercargoes designated in the edict issued by the Viceroy of Canton ? — The term generally used is Koong-sze, as I mentioned ■J. F. Ikiris, Esq. before, " a body of public functionaries." 455. Can you state the probable amount of the tonnage employed in the country trade carried on between India and China, with reference to the Company's tonnage? — The report on the table speaks to that fact: it is nearly equal, at all events, to that of the Company. It arises, not from there being so large a quantity of tonnage actually employed, but from the quick- ness of the returns, and from the comparative smallness of distance enabling one ship to make two voyages in the year. 456. Is that trade carried on without the intervention or assistance of the Company's servants at Canton at all ? — A very large portion of it con- sists of smuggling trade, and therefore must be entirely out of the Company's cognizance. 457. The question refers to the country trade carried on at Canton, of which no portion is a smuggling trade ? — That consists principally of cotton. 458. Is that trade carried on without the intervention or assistance of the Company's servants at all ? — I should say not, inasmuch as that trade has derived very important advantage and assistance from the Company's Factory in the course of time. 459. In what respect has it received the protection of the Factory? — There was an attack made by the Chinese upon the privileges antl trade of foreigners generally, in the year 1814. The Company then made a stand ; and I conceive that they gained advantages which necessarily ex- tended to the country trade, as well as to the Company's. 460. Is it not the fact, that all the sales of the cargoes imported from India to Canton, and the purchases of returns, are conducted by the super- cargoes on account of the country trade in direct communication with the Chinese merchants, without any interference or assistance from the Com- pany's servants whatever? — Certainly, we do not interfere with their ar- rangements with the Hong merchants. 461. Do you know whether the American trade is not carried on in the same way, namely, that the American merchants have direct commu- nication with the Chinese authorities and the Chinese merchants, without the interference or assistance of the Company's servants? — With the Chinese authorities they have endeavoured to obtain an intercourse, but have been denied it, except through the medium of the Hong merchants. They are ordered by the Chinese government, if they have any thing to say, to send a petition in English to the Hong merchants, which petition the Hong mer- chants are to translate into Chinese. The disadvantage of such a medium of communication as the Hong merchants is this, that, in the first place, they have interests decidedly contrary to those of the petitioning foreigners ; and secondly, that they dare not, in their communication with their own government, SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 65 government, urge points or use expressions win'ch foreigners would urge and 22 Feb l^^"- which foreigners would use, could they write their petition themselves. The Americans have been engaged, in a great measure, in the illegal trade with -T- F- J^'i'is, Kxq- what are called the outside shopmen, in express contravention of the laws of the Chinese empire; and the government repeatedly interfered to put a stop to it, in consequence probably of the defalcations of revenue, and the ruin of the Hong merchants which ensued therefrom. They have interfered three or four times since I have been in the service. 462. Was not that interference on the part of the Chinese government at the request of the Factory ? — Certainly not. 463. Do you know the date of the last interference ? — The last was shortly before I left the country. 464. Were you in Canton in 1828? — Yes, I was. 465. With respect to the country trade, are the Committee to understand that a trade, equal in amount of tonnage to the trade carried on by the East- India Company, is carried on under the British flag to China now, without any interference or intervention of tlie Select Committee as regards the com- mercial intercourse between the supercargoes of those ships and the Chinese merchants at Canton ? — Except as regards the occasional protection which the Committee have found it necessary to extend to the British trade in general in cases of exigency. 4C6. Can you state any of those cases ? — I speak particularly in relation to the year 1814, when a stand was made against the Chinese in favour of British subjects generally. 467. F)o you think that trade could be carried on with the same security, if it had not the protection of the Factory ? — I should say not. 468. Are you aware of a proclamation issued by the Canton government in 1814, regulating the trade between the shopmen and the Americans, on a petition for that purpose ? — No ; I recollect a proclamation denying what the Americans petitioned for. There was a proclamation about certain trifling and worthless articles ; but this was so perfectly futile, that the Americans petitioned for a set of regulations, which should admit the shopmen to trade in staple articles of commerce. Those allowed were mere mats, shoes, he. and articles of consumption, which are permitted to be sold to the sailors and foreigners generally for the supply of their occasional wants. 469. Are not all cotton goods and silk goods included in the last pro- clamation ? — If I recollect right, they were all excluded. The ultimate result of the American petition was, to be refused those articles which they applied for. 470. You mentioned that there were very heavy duties on the importation of foreign goods ; are there any internal duties on transit ? — Very consider- able ones, which necessarily add to the sale price of the articles that are the subjects of that transit. I 471. Are 66 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 22 Feb. 1830. 471. Are those fixed and known, or are they variable ? — They are so . J, r, .. entirely connected with the internal administration of the empire, that it is ^'^' not easy to obtain accurate information regarding them. 472. Is it easy to pass the goods, or are any obstacles thrown in the way ? — There are no further obstacles than tliose which arise from the bar that this transit duty forms to the consumption of the article, by increasing its price. 473. Is there any means of knowing what the rates of duties are? — Yes ; they have been stated and calculated according to the information obtained by a former tea-inspector of the Company. The document is available. 474. Has this system of transit duties been increasing of late years r — — I have no means of ascertaining that point ; but I believe they are very heavy. 475. Have they been of late years increased or diminished r — I have not heard of their being either increased or diminished. 476. Do you know how the duties are collected ? — That also forms a por- tion of the internal administration of the empire, with which we have few means of becoming acquainted. 477- You have stated that the smuggling trade has increased very much of late years ; has that increased at the same time with the system of inter- nal duties? — The increase of the smuggling trade has been chiefly with reference to opium, which can have no connexion with duties, being altoge- ther contraband. 478. Is there not a very considerable smuggling trade in other articles imported into China from Europe ? — I believe that a great deal has been smuggled into China. I know instances where the articles have been de- tected, and a heavy fine has been imposed upon the Hong merchant who secured the ship, while of course the importing European has suffered the loss of his goods. 479. Have the Hong merchants themselves taken part in the smuggling trade? — Far from it; they were sold, not to the Hong merchants, but to outside shopmen. 480. You were understood to state that some of the Hong merchants have been ruined by their mixing with the smuggling trade? — Not at all ; they have been ruined by the smuggling trade. They pay heavy duties and exactions to the government, on account of the advantages which their situation affords them in the monopoly of the regular trade ; and as the smuggling trade must necessarily be carried on by persons who do not pay those heavy exactions, and who in fact frequently evade the regular duties, they must necessarily be ruined by the extension of such a course of trans- actions. 481. Do SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 67 481. Do all the English manufactures imported into China by the Com- 22 Feb. 1830. pany pass through the fair trade ? — Certainly. 482. Have you any means of judging what proportion of the whole im- ' " "^'''' ''"^' ports into China consist of the smuggling trade ? — It is impossible to say exactly how much, because the smuggling is secret, and therefore not so open to investigation ; but with regard to opium, we know that the amount of the annual importation into China is upwards of 10,000,000 of dollars. 483. Taking what information you have, should yon say that one-half, or two-thirds of the whole importation of foreigners into China is surreptitious? — I should say that it is very likely that one-half may be surreptitious, taking the value, not the bulk, because it is the most valuable articles in proportion to their bulk which are the most likely to be smuggled. Bulky articles, such as raw cotton, can hardly be the subjects of smuggling. 484. You have spoken of the Company's Factory making what you call a stand upon certain occasions ; in what way is that stand made ? is it by ab- staining from dealing and trading ? — The Company turned upon the Chinese their own favourite weapon. The Chinese had a mode of resorting to the stoppage of all communication; and in the year 1814, the Company, with very great effect, tried the same measure upon the Chinese, and found it perfectly successful. 485. That is to say, the Chinese were not able to withstand the abstaining from trading with them for any length of time ? — They gave up the point at last. 486. You threatened the stopping of the trade, and that threat brought them to their senses ? — The measure of stopping the trade gained for the Company all the points for which they contended. 487. Can you state how long the trade was stopped upon that occasion ? — I have not the dates in my recollection ; but it was for a considerable period. 488. Did that stand, which you represent to have been made, create any considerable distress in China? — No, it could not produce much distress among the people for the time ; but it produced considerable embarrassment to the government, from the delay of the duties. It gained for the Com- pany two or three most important immunities and rights. Among the im- munites may be stated, that of exemption from inquisitorial visitations from the Chinese Mandarins at the Factory. They had been lately subject to every kind of insult in that way, and they gained an exemption from it. With regard to the privileges which they gained, the most important one was that of direct communication with the government in the written character of the country, under sealed cover, and without any interference on the part of the Hong merchants. 489. Are the Committee to understand, that prior to the year 1814, the period at which the stand was made, the Company carried on their trade 1 2 without 68 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 22 Feb. 1830. without the privilege to which you attach so much importance, of commu- — - , nicating directly in the Chinese character ? — No, they did not altogether ; J. F. Davis, Esq. jjyj jj jjgjj {jggj^ frequently disputed ; and it was in the year 1814 that the Chinese particularly endeavoured to deprive them of it. They contended for the retention of this privilege, and gained a final confirmation of it in writing. 490. How many gentlemen are there in the Factory that can speak Chi- nese ? — Perhaps half a dozen. 491. Sufficiently to hold conversation with the natives ? — I should think so ; and some of them to write the character. 492. Were you in any provinces where the tea is cultivated? — Lord Amherst's embassy did not pass through the principal tea provinces, which are Fokien and Tche-Kiang. We passed, however, through some where it is partially cultivated. 493. Are not the provinces, where the tea is cultivated, very populous districts ? — Very populous. 494. Is it not cultivated by a great number of small proprietors ? — I should think that nearly all the landed proprietors in China must be small, from the mode in which property descends. They have, I believe, some- thing like the law of descents in France, which generally divides the pro- perty pretty nearly among the children, and therefore the cultivators must come gradually to be persons of small property. 495. Is not it cultivated rather by what we should call cottagers in gar- dens, than upon a great scale ? — I should think the immediate cultivators are persons of small property ; but the tea-men, as they are called, those who employ the cultivators in performance of the contracts made at Canton, are persons of generally large capital. 496. Altogether, do you think there is any considerable population engaged in the cultivation of teas ? — It must necessarily be so in the pro- duction of the commodity, because the manuflicture of tea necessarily involves so large a quantity of human labour. 497* Did you ever liear any estimate how many millions were supported by that trade ? — No ; all our statistical information with regard to C^hina must be very vague indeed. 498. Can you state what intermediate contractors there are between the cultivators of the tea-plant and the Hong merchant? — Ihe intermediate contractors are called the tea-men, who at the commencement of every year, about the month of February, make tlieir arrangements witii the Hong merchants, in reference to the supply of the succeeding season. 499. You are understood to say, that the persons whom you call the tea- men go into the country and buy the tea of the small proprietors, but they are not the advancers of the capital which is required for the cultivation of this SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 69 this tea? — I must repeat, that all our knowledge of details in tlie interior of 22 Feb. !83o. China must be extremely vague ; and what 1 have said as to the smallness : of individual property, in reference to those cultivators, is in fact chiefly a '^' ^' ^^("''"^ ''■"?- surmise of my own, deduced from the mode of descent in Cliina. 500. To what do you ascribe the circumstance, that the Factory know so little of the interior of the country; — Because they are confined to a small corner of the empire, and their knowledge cannot be so great as if they had access to several points of it. 501. Do you suppose that those with whom you deal purposely keep you in ignorance, or that they themselves are unable to acquaint you ? — I be- lieve the Chinese themselves are generally ignorant of statistical matters ; they either have not the curiosity, or they do not possess the means of inform- ing themselves. 502. How long has the trade in British manufactures been a losing trade on the part of the Company ? — I think the returns will show for a very con- siderable period. 503. You know that fact from having seen the accounts? — Yes. 504. Have you any doubt of it? — I have no doubt that they have lost in the long-run very considerably. 505. Does it continue to be a losing trade, or has it improved in that re- spect? — I fancy that the Company have got a more fair return for some of their articles of importation, in consequence of having diminished the quantity. The prices have experienced very great depression at Canton, in consequence of the importations of the Americans. 506. Would not that circumstance have continued the depression of your profits rather tlian have increased the prices? — I would not say that the Company have gained more, but that they have lost less, in consequence of finding it necessary to diminish the supply. 507. Have the Factory always considered it as a losing trade, which was carried on rather to satisfy the people of England than for any profit to be derived from it ? — Decidedly ; and I would add, that the quantity imported by the Americans has not been more than about one-fourth of the quantity imported by the Company and their officers, for the reason I have already stated, — that the officers can afford to import British manufactures at a cheaper rate, and that the Company have submitted to losses which cannot be expected from private merchants, from any feeling of regard for the manufacturers of the goods. 508. Of course, as this has been a losing trade, you have not felt your- selves boimd to extend it ? — We have extended it, and in fact kept it up to a point which private merchants could not have kept it to, in consequence of our influence over the merchants, causing them to take the goods, though tliey lost by some of them. 509. Of course, therefore, the merchants that are forced to take the goods, must 70 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 22 Feb. 1830. '""s*^ put that loss upon some other part of their deaHngs with the Company? — Possibly upon the teas. Such a trade as that cannot be considered as J. F. Davis, Esq. advantageous to the Company; but the Company have, I believe, continued it to a certain extent, in deference to public opinion, or rather in consequence of the public clamour. 510. Do you suppose that the American who has carried on that trade has been induced to do it from any other circumstance than finding it profitable? — I believe it will be shown that the American importations have fallen off lately ; and, in fact, the great bulk of their importations has been in bullion ; and I conclude that, if they had found the trade in woollens profitable, it would have been much more extensive than it has been, viz. one-fourth of the Company's. 511. Have you not every reason to suppose that that portion which they do carry on, whatever it may be, must be profitable ? — I should argue that it was not profitable, from the fact that very large failures and ruin have attended the American trade. 512. Have you any other facts to prove that, except the passage you referred to in the President's speech ? — Merely that sort of knowledge which one gains in conversation and by reading. 513. If it can be shown to you in evidence, that the American is making a profit of from 20 to 30 per cent, upon manufactures sent out, while the Company have, according to your own statement, been carrying on generally a losing trade in this article of manufacture, would it not be a satisfactory proof to you that the private trader has had some better means of disposing of his goods than the Company's Factory ? — Certainly, in relation to that particular article : the thing speaks for itself. 514. You state, that great advantage is derived in the China trade from large ships in preference to small ones. Supposing a private trade to exist to China, is it not to be presumed that the individuals who carried on that trade for their own benefit would select the sort of ships which carried on the trade to the best advantage ? — That is quite a speculative question, and I cannot speak to the result of the experunent. 515. Are you aware whether the Americans have increased the size of their ships lately ? — I am not aware of that. 5lG. Do not the Dutch and other European states also carry on some trade with China? — The Dutch have had three or four ships in China within the last three or four years. 517. Do they act through a factory, or in what manner do they transact their business ? — They have lately established a consulate. 518. Do not those who trade between Holland and (^hina carry on their business at the place, without any particular control from any company or factory? — I am not exactly aware that they are under any particular control, beyond that exercised by their consul. 519. Have SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 71 519. Have they, within your recollection, got into any difficulties with 22Feb. I83u. the Chinese authorities or government ? — It is only very lately that they ~ have resumed their trade they were thrown out of by the war, and they have '^' J^'""% ''•"/■ only resumed it lately ; in fact, displaced the Americans in the supply of Holland. 520. Are you aware that the Dutch formerly carried on all their trade through the Dutch East India Company? — 1 believe they did. 521. Have you heard from the merchants, or from any persons carrying on that trade at present, any expression of opinion, that the trade was now carrying on to any disadvantage in consequence of its being open and free ? — I believe there is sometliing like an association in Holland, at present, for carrying on the China trade, if I am rightly informed. 522. Are you aware that, though it is an association, it is a free associa- tion, and it is open to any private persons to make a similar one ? — It is ; but very little inference can be drawn from the Dutch China trade, it being so very recent. 523. But you are not aware of any difficulty arising from its present freedom ? — No speciric difficulty ; they compete with other foreigners at Canton. 524. Do you know any thing about Cochin China? — Very little. 5'3.5. Do you know whether any trade is carried on by individuals with Cochin China? — I think an attempt was made by some Americans, which proved an utter failure. I read something about it in the Edinburgh Review, or in the Quarterly, three or four years back. 526. Has any attempt been made on the part of the Factory, to ascer- tain whether they could increase the commercial relations with Cochin China, or any of those countries to which we have little access ? — An at- tempt was made by the British Factory, in the person of Mr. Roberts, many years ago, under the auspices of the Supreme Government, but it proved a failure. 527. How many years ago was that ? — I cannot state, but it was consider- ably previous to my entering the service. 528. Was it a mere trading attempt, or was it an attempt to establish some relation between the governments ? — It was, I believe, an attempt to establish a trade. 529. You stated that the Chinese felt a peculiar jealousy towards the English, from their neighbourhood in Nepaul and in Ava. Have any cir- cumstances occurred, within your knowledge, which led you to suppose that, or is it merely a surmise of your own ? — I think that an edict of the Emperor at about the commencement of the Burmese war, tended to prove that the Chinese were aware of such a contest having commenced, and that they had turned their attention towards their frontier in that quarter. 530. Was there any thing in the proclamation, or in what occurred at the period, 72 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 22 Feb. 1830. period, which proved at all distinctly that the Chinese government connected the operations in Ava with the British at Canton r — They cannot be ignorant /. F. Davis, Esq. that the British nation is concerned in both places. 531. Then you imagine that they were aware that the same nation which was engaged in hostile operations near their western frontier, was connected with the Factory of merchants subsisting at Canton ? — I should certainly think that they could not be ignorant of that ; and I know very well that they are fully aware of the existence of our influence in Nepaul ; for a Chinese gene- ral was either seen or heard of as being very near, by some of our public functionaries, about the time of the Nepaul war. 532. Are you led to suppose that they connect the operations in Ava and Nepaul with the Factory at Canton? — I think their pride would prevent their making such admissions to us; but 1 feel perfectly certain that they must be aware of our encroachment upon them on those two points. 533. Are they aware that the persons who compose the British Factory at Canton belong to the same nation ? — They certainly have never told us in so many words. 534. Has any thing ever occurred which leads you to conclude that they distinctly connect the British Factory with the proceedings in Nepaul and Ava ? — Circumstances have occurred, as already stated, which make me feel quite certain of their knowing that those who encroached upon them towards Nepaul and in Ava were the British, and they must connect them with the British in Canton. 535. You stated that the Chinese are incapable of distinguishing foreigners at Canton; how comes it, then, that they distinguish so particularly, in the case of the British Factory, its connexion with those operations on their frontier in another quarter ? — They cannot fail to know that there are such flags and such nations as Americans and English ; and they cannot, of course, fail to know who are the English authorities at Canton, and who are not the English authorities. 536. Then, in point of fact, they do make a distinction between the dif- ferent nations of foreigners ? — If they did not make any distinction, they could not treat one better than another. They are not capable of making such nice distinctions as we make ; for we can tell an American by his mere accent. 537. Then you mean that they cannot distinguish between individuals? — Certainly. 538. You stated that the American trade has been a declining one ; for what length of time has it been declining ? — I cannot go very nicely into details, but they are before the Committee. 539. It appears by the returns now before the Committee, that with the exception of the years 1826 and 1827, it has been an increasing trade ? — In amount ; but in tonnage it has diminished : and if the amount has remained nearly SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 73 nearly the same, while the tonnage has diminished, I would ascribe it to this 22 Feb. 1830. circumstance, that they have given up bringing manvjaclurcs, which occupy a large space, and brought bullion, which occupies a small one ; that they '^' ^' ^^*"''' ^^1- have moreover diminished their purchases of tea, which occupies a lar^e space, and bought silks, which occupy a smaller one in proportion to the value. I began, however, with stating that the documents will be a better authority than I am. 5t0. Are you acquainted with the actual amount of American imports and exports for any one year? — I only speak with reference to those docu- ments which I have examined. 541. Are you aware of the way in which the duties are paid by Ameri- can merchants upon goods brought fiom the east of the Cape of Good Hope ? — I have understood that the American government gave the traders a year's credit for the duties they had to pay ; and that the trade existed to an unnatural extent, in consequence of the credits arising from this custom. That the American government has been obliged to resort to some remedy for its losses. .542. Has the falling off in the .American trade been in that with China, or with India ? — I speak with reference to the documents which 1 have seen relating to China. 5A'3. Do you know the actual amount of trade in the years 1826 and 1827 ? — I have an account, I think, of 1828-9, which exhibits six millions arid a half of dollars. 544. You state that in your travels in China you have perceived British manufactures in the interior of China ; can you state any particular place where you saw them; at Pekin, for instance? — No, it was only in the neighbourhood of Canton. We, in fact, became sensible of our approach to Canton, by the i-ecurrence of shops containing British manufactures. 545. Was it solely in the province in which Canton was situated, that you saw British manufactures exposed for sale ? — I cannot speak to that ; but it was only in the southern part of the empire. In fact, the recur- rence of such goods was more frequent in proportion as we approached Canton, 546. You stated, that it had been the earnest endeavour of the Com- pany's Factory at Canton to extend their trade, if possible, but that they had been unable to do it ? — They have certainly extended their trade very much in tea. 547. Were you at Canton in September 1828 ? — I was. 548. Did you hear that a ship called the Merope had returned to Canton after having been a voyage as high up as to Ningpo, having made a very profitable voyage, and converted the whole of her cargo to a very large ex- tent into specie ? — It must have been entirely surreptitious, if she did ; and I judge that her cargo was opium. K 549. Do 74' EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 32 Feb. 1830. 549- Do you conceive that such a thing would be possible ? — I should say ~ ' very improbable, until the fact spoke for itself. From surmise, I should say . avis, Lsg. j^. ^^^ ^ thing that could not easily occur ; but that by smuggling a ship might manage to introduce goods in that way. 550. You have stated, that the Chinese government have issued many edicts against smuggling ; have those edicts been carried into force or not ? — They certainly have, to the utmost capability of the weak Chinese go- vernment. I would say that they have rather shown the hostility of the Chinese government to the system, than that they have been very effective in suppressing it. 551. Do you consider that smuggling has been decreased by them, or the contrary? — ^1 should say, that the weak and ill-organised government of China cannot follow up its edicts by a corresponding effectiveness ; and they have probably, in a great measure, proved unavailing. 552. You stated, that the Americans laboured under disadvantages in their intercourse with Chinese ; what inconvenience can you state ever to have arisen from the intercourse between the Americans, carried on as it is, and the Hong merchants? — They have suffered very severe distress and mis- fortune, in the case of a homicide, from their want of union. 553. In their commercial transactions, to what disadvantages are they subject ? — I should simply argue, from the ruin of American houses engaged in Chinese commerce, that the commerce has been a losing one. .^S^f. Then you have no reason to suppose that there is any difficulty whatever in the Americans carrying on their transactions with the Chinese in Canton, but only that the result of the trade is probably a losing one ? — A great many inconveniences. They cannot make their grievances known to the government. 555. Have you ever known any inconvenience arise to them from that? — Yes ; I have known individuals attempt to communicate their grievances in the written character, and the document which contained that character was returned to them unopened. 55(!i. Has their trade ever been interrupted in their transactions with the Hong merchants r — Very much indeed, in the year 1821. 557. Has there been any other case besides that ? — Yes; I believe that very considerable delay has arisen from the prices demanded for the teas not being suited to the Americans, and they have been obliged to hold back for long periods. 558. In those cases have the Hong merchants yielded ? — It was not with the Hong merchants that they have generally dealt, but princijjally with unlicensed j)eople, contrary to the regulations of the govenuiient. Of course they have dealt with the Hong merchants occasionally, as well as with the others. 550. In SELECT COMMITTEE oi the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 75 559' In the cases to which you allude, in which, as you say, a sort of stand -^2 Feb. 1830. has been made, have the Americans generally obtained the tea at their own ■ prices, or have they been obliged to come to the prices of tlie Chinese? — 1 >f- J'- Dnvis, Esq. should think they must have given in, in most cases ; but I cannot speak with the same correctness to the transactions regarding the Americans and Chinese as I can with regard to our own transactions. 560. When the East-India Company ship a quantity of woollens to China, do they send you an invoice of those goods ? — They do. 561. Do you add to that the charges of freight, &c. as in a common mer- cantile transaction ? — It is all calculated in the invoice. 562. And then you turn that over into the money of the country ? — Yes, and endeavour to get the best price we can. 5^3. Do you turn it over at the current exchange, or at the 65. 8f/. ? — We turn it over at 6s. 8 Are those the contract teas ? — The contract teas, and every tea that comes in the Company's investment ; the price of that is not established by any old standard, but by the real merits of the tea itself. 588. I--, that an annual settlement ; and do the prices, in point of fact, vary much from year to year? — The prices do vary. 589. Do they vary considerably from year to year ? — They so far vary, that in some seasons we have a very good supply of teas, and in other seasons an inferior supply ; and in those seasons, of course, the price paid for them is less. 590. Can Es'/. 78 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : as Fel). 1830. ^90. Can you give an instance of the variation from year to year ? — No, I cannot charge my recollection ; I should be sorry to speak to any tiling C. Mnrjoribanks, which can be shown so much more accurately by printed statements. 591. Do you mean that there is an invariable price for best, an invariable price for moderate, an invariable price for tlie inferior sort of tea, and that the only variation in the price is according to the proportion which the best, the moderate, and the inferior bear to each other when they are brought in ? — If I were to endeavour to give the characters of the teas employed in China, I believe they would not be intelligible to this Committee. The terms employed are found useful in rating the qualities of the teas, and the teas that are found to deserve those characters are placed under them, and the prices given for them are according to the quality which it is found the tea really possesses. 592. Do you mean to say that there is an invariable price paid year by year for the same quality of tea, or that the same quality may one year with another fluctuate in its price ? — That applies to some of the teas, but not to all. 593. Will you state to what teas that does not apply ? — The question is in some respects complex ; as the teas which are purchased as winter teas are received by different standards from the teas which are purchased under contract. Those general questions do not apply to the tea investment gene- rally. 594. Can you give the Committee the names of the teas, and the average amount of the teas which are subject to that contract, and which are excluded from it ? — Congo as well as twankay teas. The part of the investment con- sisting of contract congo is about 120,000 chests annually. 595. What is the quality of the congo tea ? — It is a remarkably good black tea. But congo is a general term 5 there are several different classes of congo. 596. What may be the average export of congo tea from Canton on the part of the Company ? — Upwards of 200,000 chests. But this is not all con- tract congo ; there is a good deal of that winter congo. 597. What proportion would the winter congo bear to the contract congo? — The winter purchases of the Company are, I think, from 90,000 to 100,000 chests. 598. With respect to bohea, what proportion does the contract tea of the sort called bohea bear to the winter bohea ? — There is no winter bohea. The bohea tea is a lower description of tea, whicli is used as a flooring for the Company's ships ; the proportion of that to the general investment is very small. I am unwilling to state the proportion, unless I could state it per- fectly accurate ; but it is proportionably small. 599. Is not the bohea tea commonly estimated at about 9c?. a pound in the prime cost ? — We buy it at from 14- to I7 talcs a pecul. Coo. What SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 79 600. What is the price of congo tea paid by the Company? — At present 23 Feb. 1830. tlie Company's price is at 25, 26, 27, 28, and 30 tales per pecul. ~ L (501. Do you speak of the tale at Gs. Sd.?—l speak with reference to the ^- ^^"mr'f^unks, conventional value of the tale at iis. i^d. ; but I do not consider the tale to ''"^' have that value. I should say, in explanation of the value of a tale, that I believe if a tale weight of dollar silver were melted down, and 0*. of English money were also melted down, that they would yield nearly equal parts of pure silver; which, according to that estimate, would not give the tale at more than 6s. as compared with English money. 602. Can you state the proportion that the port charges at Canton would bear upon a pecul of bohea tea ? — No, I cannot from recollection. Cos. Can you state at what rate bohea tea is put up here ? — I only know from tlie papers before Parliament; I have no personal experience of the India-House sales. With respect to the prices of congo tea, I may state that in the year 1825 the Company's prices of congo teas were reduced one tale per pecul upon every class of teas ; and the result of that was, a saving upon the Company's investment of about £20,000 sterling per annum. 604-. Did the same reduction in price take place in other teas ; bohea for instance? — Not at that period. 605. Subsequently did a fall in price take place in bohea teas ? — The price has varied, but I do not remember the precise variation, 606. Can you state the prime cost of souchong tea? — 30, 32, 34, 36, 38, 40 tales per pecul. 607. Are there any copies kept of the accounts sent home by the Select Committee? — All accounts with reference to the Company's purchases are regularly sent home. Cos. Can you state what the Canton charges consist of? — The charges for the establishment of the Factory, the Factory rent, the wages of Chinese in the Company's employ, and there are certain charges on merchandise which enter also to some amount into these charges, boat-hire to carry teas to the ships, linguist's fees, marking Company's chests, &c, C09. Can you state the amount of them in anyone year? — I think the charges I speak of generally amount to about 100,000 dollars. 610. Is not the tea taken from the Hong merchants, who receive English goods in return, upon certain shares of which the Hong merchants have a certain quantity ? — The Company's business is divided into twenty-one shares, which are apportioned differently amongst the different Hong merchants. The quantity of teas supplied by them upon contract is in proportion to those shares. Cll. Are not the English manufactured goods, which they receive in return, also apportioned in certain shares ? — With the greater part of the woollens that is the case. 612. Is 80 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 23 Feb. 1830. 012. Is it the fact then, that each merchant who has a certain proportion of this trade delivers a certain quantity of tea, and receives a certain quantity C. Marjoribanks, of goods? — No, I did not state it in those terms. 613. Can you give the Committee an account of the share which any one individual has had in furnishing tea to the Company ? — I can state what the shares of the merchants are. The senior merchant has four of the twenty-one shares, the next four in succession have three, and the remaining two mer- chants have two and a half shares each. 614. What is the amount of a share ? — It depends upon the extent of the investments. 615. Is it equally divided according to the investment of the year? — The Company's business is divided into twenty-one shares, apportioned as I have stated. 616. Do the Hong merchants that furnisli this tea all of them receive a certain quantity of woollens or other articles imported by tlie Company into Canton? — No; all the imports are not regulated in the same way. They have received the greater proportion of Company's woollens according to tlieir shares for a distinct and decided reason, that the merchants have always complained that the woollens which they have received have been no gain to them, and on some occasions a loss : therefore it has been considered equitable that the merchants who have the largest portion of the teas received from them, should take in return the largest proportion of British manufac- tured goods. Gl7. In point of fact, each individual having a share of the tea trade does receive a certain proportion of woollens from the Company ? — He receives his proportion according to the proportions I have stated. 618. In the settlement of the account between the Company and those individuals so furnishing a portion of the tea and receiving a portion of woollens, how is it conducted ? — It is conducted upon the same principle as other mercantile transactions. The merchants who deliver more in value than they receive, have the balance paid to them. 019. But the one, as far as it goes, is set off against tiie other? — Not always : generally speaking it is so. There have been sometimes importations on tlie Company's account at the period when no teas have been received. Of course the merchants who have received the goods as imported would be required to pay the amount value of them into the Company's treasury. 620. In all those cases in which there have been accounts on both sides between the Hong merchants and the supercargoes and woollens, a balance is struck between them, estimating the woollens at a given price, and the tea at a given price ? — I scarcely understand the question. The trade, in cases where goods are received and delivered, is conducted on similar principles to those applying to mercantile transactions all over the world — the debtor and creditor account is settled between the parties. 621. In SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 81 G21. In what way is the value of the woollens estimated by the super- 23 Ftb. 1830. cargoes? — They receive information as to prices of the woollens in the , — ; — markets of China from the Hong merchants, as well as from other sources Marjonbanhs, which are open to them. Though the Company's servants are confined in their commercial transactions to the Hong merchants, their ears are open to information from every quarter which may be considered one of inteUigence. They are aware of the state of the China market for woollens and any other description of goods. 62'2. Is the value of woollens settled by the Select Committee upon such evidence as they obtain r — It is adjusted between them and the Hong mer- chants. The Hong merchants have frequently been required to receive woollens, when they have made very serious objections to it. 'o'iS. Are any of those woollens ever sold by the Company to any other parties than the Hong merchants? — I think not. A small experimental con- signment of some goods may, upon some occasion, have been sold to some other person, but the commercial transactions of the Company in buying and selling are confined to the Hong merchants. 624. Then it follows, that the price settled between the supercargoes and the Hong merchants must be a price which is obtained from information about the market, and not from actual dealings in the market on the part of the supercargoes ? — The supercargoes do not go into the retail market to sell the cloth, but they receive information from every source which is open to them, and according to their information they are guided in the adjust- ment of prices I believe the supercargoes have equal means of obtaining general information in China with other persons. 625. The fact being, that it is a sale by one party possessing a mono- poly to another party possessing a monopoly ? — That is a question which in- volves the word monopoly, to which different persons give different signi- fications. The Company's is a monopoly in some respects, and not in others. 626. In what respect is the Company's trade with China not a monopoly ? — British ships from every port in Asia are permitted to arrive in China. The Company have allowed British merchants to remain in China, with and without the diplomas of foreign consuls ; they have given every encourage- ment to British commerce in China. There are very numerous instances which can be stated, where the Company has not what is called a mono- poly in an invidious sense of the word. I conceive, under the protection of the Company, the British trade generally at Canton has originated and has been preserved. 627. Then, so far as the free trade is concerned, is there not a mono- poly on the part of the East-India Company for the export of teas to all parts of the British possessions ? — There are powers vested in the Company by acts of the Legislature, to trade exclusively from the dominions of the Emperor of China in tea. The Company, however, give tea licenses to L country 82 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : C. Marjoribanks, £sg. 23 Feb. 1830. country ships, which proceed to different ports in Asia, to carry teas there for the consumption of those ports : in these, New South Wales is included. I may state, with regard to the word " monopoly," that since 1 have been acquainted with China, I have never known a Company's servant there to show the least wish unnecessarily to restrict the limits of British commerce, or to interfere with the fair trader, as long as he conducted himself in a manner that could not endanger the general trade in Canton. 628. By whom are the licenses to export tea from Canton to India given? — By the Select Committee. 629. Is not also the furnishing woollens to the Hong merchants a trade exclusively in the hands of the Company, in so far as that can be carried on by Britons ? — No ; they allow their captains and officers to import woollens into China, and 1 know no prohibition against their being imported into China in country ships. 630. Is not there a prohibition of the export of woollens ? — I do not un- derstand the question. 631. Is it not the fact that they were prohibited by the English law ? — I am not accurately acquainted with the provisions of the English law. I do not imagine that the Company ever exercise any power which is not vested in them by the Legislature. I do not remember that their representatives in China interfered in the importations of private ships. 632. Can you state the amount of tonnage allowed to the officers of the East-India Company to export goods from England or India to Canton ? — I can CORRECTED STATEMENT of the BRITISH TRADE at t IMPORTS on account of The Honourable Company. Imports remaining over Season 1826-7: Long ells tales, 197,222 Worleys — 26,000 Camlets — 68,904 Tales, 292,126 Imported by Country Ships, 1828-9: Cotton,-) ^"'''- P^'"^- '''^•'• Bengal / ^^•^'^^ 35.251 324,559 Broad cloth bales 4,154 yards, 431,816 — 5.003 — 300 — 470 — 2 — 612 pieces. Long ells. Worleys Camlets Mohair camlets . . . British calicoes . . . Blankets and scarfs . British iron peculs. Lead Cottons, Bengal _ 39.336 Do. Madras .... — 12,029 Do. Bombay.... — 22,486 Sandal wood billets 32,654 Tales. Dollars. 431,816 553.650 100,060 578,760 6,000 39,000 4,700 98.1.36 15 486 15.300 77,112 71 204 30,261 104,430 30,246 124,472 86,312 798.554 27,065 240,917 62,829 621,725 1.873 16,203 3,253.649 4.518,95 Carried forward. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 83 can only speak from recollection of what can be much more accurately shown by documents ; but I think the Company allow their officers two- fifths of the ships' tonnage upon their own account, from port to port in India. I do not remember the precise amount of tonnage granted to the commanders of direct ships ; but the Company's direct ships rarely go out with full cargoes ; and no refusal is, I believe, given by the Company to officers exporting any goods upon their own account, which they may be desirous of doing. 653. Can you state the actual price at which cloth of different descriptions was sold to the Hong merchants, in any given year, by the supercargoes ? — I must plead defect of memory on those subjects ; those statements are all regularly sent home. 654. Can you furnish that statement to the Committee ? — I can do so. 635. Have the Company exported any cotton-yarn to China within the last few years ? — The exports of cotton-yarn to Canton the year I left China had been very Hmited. The Company exported cotton-yarn as an experimental consignment ; but it was only within the last two years that it has been introduced into China. I may refer the Committee to a general statement of British trade at Canton. I have here a Statement of British trade at the port of Canton for the year ending the 30th of June 1S28, which shows the precise amount of the trade on the Company's and private account. [The witness delivered in the same.'] 23 Feb. 1830. Marjoribanks, Esq. ort of CANTON, for the Year ending 30th June 1828. EXPORTS on account of The Honourable Company. oading charges tory expenses - - ■an establishment ,^es of Schooner tales. 13.689 75,9.54 5,982 1,205 Bohea peculs, 28,967 . . . . Congo — 161, ,545 . . . . Souchong — 1,605 . . . . Twankay *— 38,617.... Hyson — 4,603 . . . . Hyson-skin — 1 ,6 1 1 . . . . ts. 437.552 3,935,447 60,229 1.043,758 236,333 43,553 } 309. 808 North American investment, including supracargoes' commission Cape stores, teas and sundries 29,168 St. Helena stores, and stores to Bengal and Bombay 9.237 Port charges on 28 ships (Boyne included) 109,004 Tales, 96,830 I Unloading charges. Canton Factory expenses, Canton) q6 8^0 European establishment, expenses of schooner, &c. ) Tales. 5,756,872 348,213 205,834 6,310,919 Dollars. 8,765,165 Carried forward. L2 84 EVIDENCE ON EASTJNDIA AFFAIRS; Per H. C. Ships : Cotton, Bengal 34.962 Do. Madras 387 Do. Bombay 32,046 Pecuh, 67,395 p' H. C. Ships. . .peculs, 14>252 — 12,574 — 21,566 — 1,260 — 142 — 665 — 1.455 catties, peculs, 1,158 136 3.552 25 4,188 2,084 3.019 70 dollars, 18,000 — 33,617 — 8,400 — 25,527 Opium, p' Portuguese Ships, 1827-8: Dumaun chests, 1,988 Company's Patna . . — 73 Do. Malwah — 413 Chests, 2,474 Opium on hand, 1st July 1828: Patna chests, 2,482 IJenares — 42 1 Malwah — 1,532 Chests, 4>435 IMPORTS Brought forward ON PRIVATE ACCOUNT: Cotton, Bengal . . pec. 41,487, at gt.6 m. p' pec. Do. Madras .. — 387, at 9 <. 5 m. — Do. Bombay. . — 228,664, at 9 /. 2 m. — . ■ ts. 398,275 3,676 . . 2,103,709 Opium, Malwah, chests, 3,080, at 1,185 drs. p ch. . drs. 3,649,800 Do. Patna & Benares — 7,191 — 1,056 — .. 7.593,696 Tales. Pepper pec. 14,252, Rattans — 14,614 at catties, 31,800 1,334 2,030 522 700 5,150 762 1,200 196 3.552 25 pec. Betel-nut Putchuck Sharks' fins Olibanum Blackwood Sandalwood Ivory Saltpetre Cloves Flints Amber, very inferior Iron Lead Tin _ Speltre — Broad cloth t^ds. Woollens, various kinds Cotton goods, British long cloth, &c. . . *Cotton yarn pec. 214 Pearls ; estimated value Cornelians do. Clocks and machinery ; do Rice, Manilla pec. 3,000 Rhinoceros' horns, & cows' horns — 36 Fish maws — qio Myrrh — 48 Sundries ; estimated value 4,lS8 2,084 3.019 70 25.725 7 drs. 5 - H - 12 — 18 - 5 - 6 - 20 — 80 - 5h - 60 - 2 — 1 2 drs. p' 2^ drs. 6 20 — 10 — 1 & 2 drs p pec. cat. p' yd. (invoice cost) at 2 drs 60 75 15 p pec. 2,505,660 dollars. 11,243,496 99.764 73,070 71,550 16,008 36,540 2,610 4,200 103,000 60,960 6,600 11,760 7,104 300 10,470 12,504 60,380 700 34.467 25,775 66,487 14,000 48,400 51,500 84,000 6,000 2,160 15.750 720 195.285 Dollars. 4.518,957 3,480,083 12,365.560 Dollars 20,364,600 This cotton yarn was returned to Bombay. SELCET COMMITTEE of the HOUSE of COMMOxNS. 85 p' H. C. Ships to England . . p' Country Ships | p' H. C. Ships . . peculs, 1,706 pieces, 227,800 - 56 — 275 dollars, 31,500 241,000 iable, 1,660 .. Jloor, 660 peatls, 119 — 262 pieces, 5,000 catties, 36 dollars, 2,270 Remittances through the Com- pany's Treasury, 1827-8 and 1828-9: dollars. Bills on the Hon. Court, 78,201 Certificates .. .. 447'i43 Bill on the Bengal gov' 2,417,560 Dollars 2,942,904 dollars. Command on Cotton") ggg Bonds J ' EXPORTS Brought forward ON PRIVATE ACCOUNT: Congo ^ec. 5,666, at ai ij.p'/jec. - 3,110— 32 — Campoi Souchong 7 Pouchong I Pekoe Tnankay Hyson Hyson-skin . . Gunpowder . . Black tea Green tea 464—38 602 — 26 2,628 — 46 945— 26 60—50 860 — 30 1,735—42 520 17,632 15,652 120,888 24,570 3,000 25,800 72,870 Tales. Raw silk, Nankin . . Do. Canton, of sorts Nankeen cloth, large brown Nankeen cloth, 2d sort Nankeen cloth, 3d sort, small — 1,834- — 1,736 450 drt. drs. 825,300 319,920 \ pieces, 396,400, at 98 drs.p 100 pieces 388,472 } 325,400 • 36,200 75 .48 244,050 17,376 Sugar candy pec. 9,420, at 1 2 drs. p pec. Soft sugar —34,139— 6 — Cassia lignea — 3,648 — 20 — Tortoiseshell — 56^1,000 — Mother-o'-pearl — 275 — 15 — Wrought silk, silk piece-goods, crapes, scarfs, &c.; estimated Coarse china-ware Do. Bamboos and Whangee canes .. 241,000 — 1,1^ drs.p' 100 Musk catties, 90 — 80 — p' cally alue Glass beads, i-c Table and floor mats . . Vermillion Rhubarb pecids, Cochineal — peculs, 800 — 20 • — p' pec. sets, 2,320 — — — boxes, 460 ■ — 44 — p' box 262 — 65 — p' pec. 47 — 500 Damasks pieces 5,000 — 16 — p piece Writing paper, toys, kittysols, fireworks, lacquered ware, &c estimated value Seed coral ' catties, 36, at 30 drs. p' catty Brass foil peculs, 265 — 58 — p' pec. Alum, aniseed, China root, galengal, gamboge, &c Gold tales weight, ^00 at 25 drs. p' tale Camphor peculi, 885 — 30 — p' pec. Sundries ; estimated value Dollars, Sycee and Peruvian silver tales. 498,792 dollars. 1,145,220 649,898 113,040 204,834 72,960 56,000 4,125 200,925 49,100 3,615 7,200 16,000 3,584 20,240 17,030 73,500 80,000 38,086 1,080 15,370 15,702 7,500 26,550 47,795 6,094,646 Disbursements on nineteen regular ships, at drs. 9,000 each ; eighty chartered and thirty-nine country ships, at drs. 7,000 each, measure- > ment of country ships included J Balance Dollars Dollars. 8,765,165 692,767 8,964,000 500,000 18,921,932 1,442,668 20,364,600 Esq. SQ EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: ' 23 Feb. 1830. 6S(). Does that show the quantity of cotton-yarn imported ? — There is cotton-yarn imported on private account in this year to the amount of r. Marjoribanks, i4^000 dollars. 637. Does the private trade include the trade of the Company's officers? — It does. 638. Can you state the amount of cotton-yarn imported in the subsequent year ? — I can furnish the Committee with it, but I have it not with me. 639. Do you know what the numbers were of the cotton-yarn that were exported ? — I do not remember the precise numbers, but the Chinese ob- jected to very fine descriptions of cotton-yarn, inasmuch as they could not work it up in their cloths. 640. Can you give the Committee any account of the cotton piece-goods imported ? — In the year 1828, it is given to the amount of 66,487 dollars. 641. You stated that the Hong merchants take a certain proportion of the Company's woollens in proportion to the quantity of tea furnished : is the contract for taking the woollens made at the same time with the con- tract for furnishing the tea ? — The price of the woollens is settled at the period at which the woollens are delivered to the merchants ; the contract for the teas is made the year previously, and the prices adjusted when the teas are delivered. 642. The contract for the price of teas is not made at the same time with the contract for the price of woollens ? — The prices of teas and the prices of woollens have no reference to each other; they are established sepa- rately. G43. Does raw or manufactured produce find the best market at Canton ? — Raw produce generally speaking. 644. Is that because the Chinese government wishes to protect its own manufactures ? — I conceive the Chinese government have a disposition to protect their native industry and their own manufactures. I should be led to draw that conclusion from the very high duty which is placed upon the article of camlets, the sale price of which in China is generally about 40 dollars, and the duty upon it is 18 dollars, being nearly 50 per cent, upon the sale value. The camlet is the nearest approximation to their silk manu- factures. We do not possess the same power over the Chinese as we do over our Indian empire. We have excluded the manufactures of India from England by high prohibitory duties, and given every encouragement to the introduction of our own manufactures into India. Qy a selfish (I use the word not invidiously) policy, we have beat down the native manufacturers of Dacca and other places, and have inundated their country with our own goods. We do not possess the same power over China; we may exclude their manufactures by high duties, but we cannot compel the Chinese to receive SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COxMMONS. 87 receive ours on our own terms. I should tliink they have sagacity enough 23 Feb. 1830. to protect themselves. 64i5. Do the Chinese object to the English calicoes as not equally durable ' " £<;,,, with their own ? — Yes, they consider them more flimsy and less durable. 646. Are those camlets frequently smuggled into the country ? — Very frequently, from the very high duty and consequent temptation. 647. Are you acquainted with the manufactured calicoes of India? — I have seen them. 648. Are they not superior in point of strength to those which are exported from this country ? — I cannot speak to that point. 649. You have stated, that the assumed value of the tale by the East- India Company is Qs. 8d. ; can you state what is the assumed value of the tale by the Americans? — All the American purchases and sales are conducted in dollars and cents, without any reference to the tale. 650. Besides camlets, what other articles of British manufacture are subject to duty in China ? — All articles. I speak of camlets as being subject to an extraordinary high duty; and I account for that by its being a nearer approximation to their silk manufactures than any other article of British manufacture which is imported into China. 651. Is the duty upon calico what you would call a high duty, with reference to the duty upon camlets, for instance ? — No ; the duty on camlets is higher in point of relative value. 652. How is New South Wales supplied with tea ? — By licenses, which are granted by the Select Committee in China to private ships which carry tea to New South Wales. 653. Is it a direct trade. Have you a list of Chinese duties ? — It is gene- rally a direct trade, though sometimes the ships stop at Batavia. I have here a list of Chinese duties said to be charged by the Hong merchants on goods imported into Canton. I believe this list of duties to be compiled from as accurate sources as possible. I have heard private British merchants resident in Canton declare the very great difficulty they had in ascertaining the accuracy of the Chinese duties. I beg to state that that list of duties was acquired entirely for my own private information, with no view to laying it before a Committee of the House of Commons. [llie witness delivered in the same, •which was read asfolloivs .•] 88 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS 23 Feb 1830 Estimated LIST of DUTIES charged by the Hong Merchants on Goods imported into ' Canton. C. Marjorihanks, Esq. t. m. Cotton I 3 at Sandal wood Black wood or ebony Japan wood Camphor, ist sort 2d Olibanuni Putchuck Myrrh Ctitch Tortoise-shell Elephants' teeth Khinoceros' horns Buffalo do Mother-o'-pearl shells Birds' nests, ist sort 2d Bicho do Mar Shark fins Fish maws Rattans Pepper Betel-nut Cloves Nutmegs Tin Iron Copper Lead Steel Quicksilver Amber, large small Coral beads Branch, ist sort 2d 3d 4th, or fragments Cotton handkerchiefs, large. . small . Long cloths, 1st sort 2d Broad cloth Kerseymere Camlet, English ; Dutch j Long ells Scarlet cuttings Bees'-wax j Land otter skins Sea otter skins • Rabbit skins Beaver skins Ginseng Cudbear Cochineal t. 1 1 o o 109 1 1 2 2 O 7 5 8 24 12 o o 24 4 o 1 1 o o o 5 4 1 o 1 o o 1 o o O 3 4 4 5 o o 13 6 132 132 79 13 6 o o o o o o 1 o 6 1 1 1 o 6 1 I 7 6 2 o 8 1 o 6 3 6, o 9 9 o o 6 2 4 3 3 3 3 3 3 8 3 3 o I 5 7 o 9 o 7 8 o 6 4 o 48 9 2 1 9 7 7 7 9 1 1 6 2 o 8 o 2 9 p' pecul each ditto piece ditto p' 1 covids ditto ditto ditto ditto p' pecul ditto p' 100 ditto ditto ditto p' pecul ditto ditto £. s. o 8 o 14 o 3 o 4 36 8 o 13 o 8 o 14 o 14 5 2 6 1 19 8 o 4 6 2 8 o 1 10 o 4 o 7 •20 •40 •56 •60 O H O 2 o 6 2 1 18 > 9 O 11 O 1 o 8 o o 4 2 44 44 26 11 4 9 5 2 o o o 4 o o o 2 o 11 O 12 o 8 2 16 o O 12 O 3 2 2 1 o o 10-72 7-60 8 0-88 1 -68 0-96 10-88 10-56 o 9-44 3-28 9 "So 10-88 6-64 7-68 8 -80 4-72 3-12 10-40 7 -20 6-88 8-i6 7-52 5-04 2 -64 -24 5-04 5-04 5-04 2 -64 2 -40 1 -20 5-60 11 -20 6 -24 8-48 7 20 10-08 9 60 5 60 11 -20 0-96 9-20 0-96 9-60 o 10 -40 10 -3a lbs. Avoird. atio/p'i33^rf. ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto each ditto p' piece ditto p' 10 ft. 5 in. ditto ditto ditto ditto p' i33ilbs. ditto p' hundred ditto ditto ditto p' 133^ lbs. ditto ditto N. B. — Tlie China rates are reduced into sterling at 6/8 per tale. The covid is equal to 12J inclies ; and the pecul to 133^ pounds avoirdupois. • SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 89 654. Could you from an inspection of this document, state to the Com- 03 Feb. 1830. mittee the amount per cent, of the duties upon the value of any of these '— articles ? — I can have it rated, but I could not immediately state it. ('• Mnrjo7ibanh. 655. Are those fixed duties, or do they vary in different years? — We '\ have been told sometimes that the duties are charged differently. Every foreign trader has been desirous of paying his own duties, but that has always been prohibited. It was among the requisitions made by Lord Macartney of the Viceroy of Canton, but was then, and has been subse- quently, refused. 656. Has the duty upon camlets varied materially in your recollection ? — I think that has remained steadily at the rate of about eighteen dollars per piece. 657. Notwithstanding this high duty, is there much demand for them in China ? — There is a considerable demand. I believe it is an article in which smuggling has taken place to a great extent, from the temptation which a high duty always gives. 658. Canyon give the Committee any idea of the quantity of camlets that has been imported by the East-India Company into China ? — It is stated in the Returns. 659. Are the Committee to understand, that the whole of the duties that are paid, are paid by the Hong merchants upon the vessels for which they go security ?— The Hong merchants are responsible for all duties upon foreign trade. With regard to the persons who deal outside of the Hong, their duties can only be paid through the Hong merchants. 660. Have you any reason to suppose that, in any instance, the duties paid by one merchant are higher or lower than the duties paid by another ? or is there any openinif for any bargain with respect to the amount of duties? — . Not to my knowledge; I should be sorry to say that it were otherwise, from the corrupt nature of the Chinese government. 66L To what, then, do you ascribe the anxiety you state to have been evinced by individual merchants to pay the amount of their own duties? — It was from a wish to ascertain precisely the amount, and how far they could rely upon that amount with a view to future importations. 662. Does not the secrecy which is observed with respect to the amount of duties make it always open to the government officers to demand more or less from one merchant than another ? — I do not know that this has ever taken place. The struggle between the Chinese and foreigners has always been, that the Chinese have endeavoured to keep the control of the trade in their own hands ; and but for the intervention of the Company, I conceive that the restriction would have been infinitely stricter than it is now. 663. It appears that the importation of camlets has decreased considerably in each year ; can you state any reason for that ? — A good many Dutch camlets have been imported by Dutch ships ; and camlets have also been imported on private account. M 664. Has 90 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 23 Feb. 1830. 664. Has not the smuggling trade in camlets increased ? — The smuggling trade in every article has increased within my knowledge to a very great C. Marjoribanks, extent. Esq. &Q5. Has it increased chiefly in those articles on which the duties are highest? — It has increased chiefly in opium, of which there is a prohibition. QQQ. Of the rated articles, must not the tendency of the smuggling trade be to increase most in those articles upon which the duty is highest ? — Certainly. 667. Is not the duty upon camlets high ? — Yes j I have stated it to be nearly fifty per cent, on the sale price. 668. Therefore may it not be presumed that the smuggling trade in camlets has increased? — I cannot speak from any certain knowledge of its increase. 669. How many Hong merchants are there? — Seven. 670. That is a lower number than formerly existed, is it not? — Within my recollection I think there have been seven, eight, nine, ten, and eleven. 671. What causes have led to the diminution of the number of Hong mer- chants ? — -Bankruptcies among them. 672. How do the seven existing Hong merchants stand now with respect to property? — Howqua, the senior merchant, is a man of very large property. The second in the Hong, Mowqua, has been a man of large property, but he is of more questionable property now ; I consider him still to be a very suffi- cient merchant. Puankhequa and Chunqua are both men of opulence. I should say the same of Goqua. Kinqua and Fatqua, the two juniors, I believe to be poor men, and indifferent merchants. 673. Have you known any connexion existing between the outside mer- chants and the Hong merchants, by which the capital obtained of the outside merchants is brought to support the lower class of Hong merchants ? — I believe that exists. 674. Is not Dr. Morrison the interpreter of the Company ? — He is. 675. Is he not also the Editor of the Canton Register ? — No, I believe not. 676. Is he a proprietor? — Not to my knowledge. 677- Are you acquainted witli the statements of commerce which are con- tained in the Canton Register? — I have seen them. 678. As far as they have come within your information, do they contain accounts upon which reliance can be placed? — Sometimes the information in them is correct, and sometimes incorrect. The Canton Register is like other newspapers in this respect. 679. Do the Hong merchants make any objection to entering into security for the American ships ? — The Hong merchants have invariably declared their preference to being security for the Company's ships ; they wish to refrain SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 91 refrain from being security for other ships. I have understood that the 23 Feb 1830 Americans, upon occasions, could only get Hong merchants to become security for the ships by agreeing to carry on their commercial transactions C'. Marjorihanks. with them. I^fq- 680. In point of fact, do not the Hong merchants become security for a very considerable number of American ships, exceeding thirty in a year ? — Every ship that arrives at Canton some Hong merchant must be security for. The American ships of late years have been below thirty in number ; only twenty in 1827-8, and below that number, I believe, in the subsequent year. 681. Is there any additional charge made by the Hong merchant upon the American ship, not made upon the British ship, which can measure the indisposition of the Hong merchant to become security for the one as compared with the other ? — What I have stated, I think, in some measure answers the question, that I have known instances where the Hong mer- chants have declined being security for the American ships, unless the agents of those ships agreed to trade with them. I conceive that afforded the Hong merchants an opportunity of imposing an indirect tax upon the American ships. 682. Where a Hong merchant becomes security for the Company's ship, does not the trade of that ship necessarily turn to the Hong merchant ? — Not at all. 683. In the case in which the trade of a British ship does not go through the Hong merchant, is it not an arrangement, with the assent and permis- sion of the Hong merchant, that the trade is carried on with an outside mer- chant? — If the goods are shipped from Canton, they can only be shipped from the warehouse of a Hong merchant, therefore it must be with his sanc- tion. The junior merchants, the poorer merchants, have been those most disposed to permit such shipments ; they have often formed connections with the outside men, which have been very injurious to themselves, and injurious to the trade generally. 684. Are the instances numerous, in which you have, in your experience, known the Hong merchants to refuse becoming security for American ships? — The Hong merchants did not refuse to become security ; but they showed an indisposition to become security, which indisposition did not extend to the ships of the Company. 685. How did they evince that indisposition? — By in some instances re- quiring, I have been told, an indemnity bond of the captain or supercargo of the vessel ; by the Hong merchant requiring, in some instances, that he should be dealt with in preference to any other merchant. 686. How could a Hong merchant become security for a ship without that ship dealing with him? — It is constantly the case with the Company's ships; they become security for the ship, with no reference to their future com- M 2 mercial 92 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 23 Feb. 1830. mercial dealings at all. The merchants become security successively for the Company's ships as they arrive. C. Marjonbanks. ggy_ What is the inducement to the Hong merchant to become security ''' for a ship, when he has none of the dealings with that ship put into his hands ? — He has no particular inducement to become security for an individual Company's ship, except from the advantages which he derives from the trade generally. 688. Did you ever know a Company's ship to be secured by a Hong mer- chant who had not a share in the Company's business ? — The Hong merchants have all shares in the Company's business. 689. Are not some of the junior Hong merchants in such a state of em- barrassment as to induce the Select Committee not to trust tliem with the management of the shares assigned to them, but that those shares are managed by other more responsible Hong merchants on their behalf ? — Not now. In former years, when the juniors have been in difficulties, siicli has been the case. 690. Do the Hong merchants ever become security for private ships which do not deal with them? — I cannot say that they have not done so. 691. Is there any indisposition on the part of the Hong merchants to give security for country ships? — I may say, to a certain extent, it has been ; for they have required indemnity bonds, upon some occasions, to be given by persons connected with the country trade, to protect them against any exac- tions from the government, in event of deviations from the Chinese regula- tions on the part of tlie persons connected with tliat trade. t)92. Did you ever know that course adopted with respect to American ships? — I have been tokl that it has been ; I liave been told that indemnity bonds have been required from American agents. 693. With respect to ships of other foreign countries, Dutch ships for instance, are you aware of any indisposition on the part of the Hong mer- chants to become security for them ? — The Dutch trade has been very limited of late years ; but I am not aware of any such indisposition. G9'i. Will you describe the process that takes place upon the arrival of a ship, for the purpose of finding a mercliant to become security? — As far as the Company are concerned, it has been arranged that the Hong merchants shall successively become security for the ships as they arrive. 695. Within the last two or three years has not one of these Hong mer- chants become insolvent? — Yes. 696. Which of them is that? — Manhop. 697. Has he still a share of the Company's business ? — No. 698. Would Manhop be asked or permitted to secure one of the Company's ships ? — He is no longer a merchant ; 1 believe he is at this moment at Elee, in the centre of the wilds of Chinese Tartary. , 099. Is SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 93 699. Is not his hong still at Canton, and in the list of the security mer- 23 I'cb. lasn. chants? — No ; he is a bankrupt, and his hong is dissolved. 700. Did he not remain at Canton some time after he became a bankrupt ' ^ %" """'' and compromised with his European creditors? — I believe he was kept in very close confinement, by order of the Chinese government, for a number of weeks. He was very much addicted to opium smoking, and, I believe, that was his only consolation. 701. If one Hong merchant failed with money belonging to an European in his hands, are not the Co-hong responsible for that debt by the law of China? — By the law of China to a limited amount only, to the amount of 100,000 tales: that is the Imperial law, but that has never been acted upon. 702. You stated that there have been other ports besides Canton where other Europeans have had access, asAmoy; can you state whether the same mode of carrying on business througli Hong merchants exists at those estabhshments as at Canton? — I stated that the Spaniards still possessed the privilege, which I believe to be a merely nominal one, inasmuch as they have taken no advantage of it of late years; therefore no mercantile establishment exists with a view of carrying on trade, because there is no trade. 703. Do you know whether there was an establishment of Hong mer- chants for the purpose of carrying on trade there ? — There is no foreign trade there now whatever, and therefore no merchants. I believe there was in former years. 704-. Do you know what was the establishment when foreign trade was carried on ? — Upon reference to the records of the Company, 1 have seen a description of persons spoken of during the early periods of our trade, desig- nated government merchants ; those persons have been persons who were put forward by the Chinese government to deal with foreigners, and respon- sible to the government, much in the same way that the Hong merchants are now. The early period of our trade with China shows the commerce very ill conducted, and displays the English character to very little advan- tage. The Portuguese and Spaniards, the Dutch and English, first appeared on the coasts of China as a race of men eagerly desirous of wealth, but care- less of the means by which it was obtained. The Chinese were at all times their masters in the arts of fraud and deception ; but it cannot excite surprise that a people wisely estimating the advantages of peace as the first of bless- ings which can be bestowed upon a nation, should have regarded the con- stant contentions of these early adventurers with the contempt and indiffer- ence which tiiey deserved. 705. You have given in a table, showing that the barter trade in the year ending the 30th of June 1828, in the port of Canton, amounted to 20,364,000 dollars ; can you state what proportion that bears of the whole foreign trade at Canton.' — I could give a statement of the amount of American trade, if it Esq. 94 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 23 Feb. 1830. it were not already before the Committee; and a comparison of the two — . statements, with that of the Dutch included, would give the result. I ■ '^^"'f,^^^"'^''^' should say the British trade at Canton is very considerably beyond all the others. 706. By this statement it appears that the trade on the part of the Com- pany imports 4,518,000 dollars, and that on private accounts including 11,243,000 dollars. The amount by the private individuals is 12,365,000 dollars. Will you state in what manner this account is made up, to enable them to show the amountof imports of opium, when it is a prohibited article ? — I have already stated, that though the Committee in China are confined in their commercial dealings to the Hong merchants, yet, like every other description of persons in their situation, they receive information from every source which they consider good ; and when they are desired by their employers to furnish them with accounts of the opium trade or others, they consider it their duty to make such inquiries as may elicit the best informa- tion upon those subjects. Not dealing in opium themselves, they cannot speak to the practical part, but they receive information from British agents and others who do deal in it. The friendly intercourse which has always existed between the respectable class of British merchants in China and the representatives of the Company induces the British merchants to commu- nicate readily information upon those subjects ; at least I have always found it so. 707. It is stated here, that 3,080 chests of Malwa opium are valued at 1,185 dollars per chest; in what manner is that valuation obtained? — From the sale. Those prices are not put down by the Company's servants; they are obtained from the British merchants who deal in opium. 708. Are the Committee to understand, that although the trade of opium is prohibited under very severe penalties, yet that the quantity imported, and the prices at which it is sold, is as regularly known as any other article which is authorized and regularly imported? — It is made no secret of; it is generally known by the parties who deal in it, and they communicate it to others. The prices of opium are always given in the Canton Register, a public newspaper. 709. Is it not an instruction from the Court of Directors, that no English- man in China shall in any way be concerned in the importation of opium? — No; there is no such order from the Court of Directors: the Company prohibit any of their own servants from dealing in opium. 710. Are you aware whether any of the Company's marks are put on the chests of opium imported from Malwa and Bengal? — I cannot speak accu- rately as to the fact. Tlie only time wiien I have seen opium was when it was taken out of the chest. I do not know that it is so, and I do not know that it is not. 711. Is opium landed in chests in China? — I have understood that on board the country ships they break up the chests and put the opium into bags, Es/j. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 95 bags, in which state it is delivered to the Chinese. The chest is a cumbrous ^3 Feb. Ib30. article, and they wish to get rid of it. The chest does not find its way into the Chinese boat ; it is, I believe, left in the ship. ^' ^lu'J'jnOunh, 712. Can you inform the Committee how the trade of opium is carried on.' The question refers to the transfer of opium from the country ships to the opium boats? — When I first went to China, the opium trade was at Macao, from which it went to Whampoa, and is now confined to the islands at the mouth of the river. The opium smuggling boats go alongside the ships in the open face of day, and the opium is delivered to them upon their presenting what is called an opium order from the agent in Canton. 713. Is this trade carried on within the view of the officers of government and the men-of-war boats of the Chinese ? — Frequently within the view of the men-of-war boats. 714. Are there boats stationed on the part of the Chinese authorities within reach and view of this trade? — Not regularly stationed : they frequently go and come there. They are constantly manoeuvring about, and often report to the Canton authorities that they have swept the seas of all smuggling ships. The ships remain there just the same. 715. Have you ever known any case in which they have interposed to prevent the carrying on of this opium trade ? — The Chinese have frequently interposed by the strongest proclamations. 1 have known some instances in which the opium boats have been seized, and the crew have had their heads cut off. 716. Has that happened when they have been detected up the river, or at the place among the islands where the trade is carried on ? — They have been detected in different parts of the river. They are tried and convicted in a very summary manner. The custom-house officers, by whom the opium is seized, frequently on such occasions light a fire on the top of a hill in a conspicuous situation. The opium is declared to be burnt, but I believe none of it is put into the fire. 717. Then, in point of fact, the interposition, although it may be con- nected with the loss of life, does not lead to the cessation of the trade ? — No, it does not. The Chinese government, with respect to opium, consider it as a traffic that ought not to exist. An Imperial edict is supposed to be indisputable, and anything contained in it not to be contravened. They never acknowledge it as a trade. 718. Therefore the existence of established laws against foreign trade and against foreigners by no means admits of presumption that the practice is according to the law? — No. Practice and profession are much at variance in China. 719. Then 96 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 23 Feb 1830. . 719. Then, in point of fact, it may be said that the smuggling trade in opium is carried on with the connivance of the Chinese authorities? — With C. MarjmilKinks, ^j^g connivance of the lower Government authorities; I am not prepared to "''^' say of the higher authorities. 720. Is that the case in the smuggling of other articles ? — Yes, it is. 721. Have you known of seizures being made of opium in the interior of China ? — I have heard of them. I believe the opium finds its way to all parts of the empire, and within the walls of the Imperial palace at Pekin, though it is disclaimed and denounced as a poison. 722. Is it carried on without interruption ? — No ; it is liable to frequent interruptions. The persons who carry it from Canton are obliged to conceal it about their baggage, to evade the search of the Chinese oflScers. 723. How can a trade of such an extent be a secret trade ? — It is an illicit trade. 72I'. You have stated that the smuggling trade in opium is confined to the islands at the mouth of the Canton river ? — It is there that it is principally conducted ; the foreign ships anchor there, and the opium boats go alongside of the ships there. 725. Is it carried on at any other parts of the coast ? — I have known opium ships go along the coast with a view to disposing of opium, but I believe un- successfully. 726. Is the smuggling trade in other articles carried on in any other parts of the empire ? — Not to my knowledge ; it is all at Canton. 727. Was there not a ship called the Merope freighted with opium ? — I remember a ship of the name of Merope, in China. 728. Did not that ship sail to the northward, and dispose of her cargo somewhere about the ports of Amoy and Ning-po ? — I heard that she went along the coast, but the extent of her cargo I am not aware of. 729. Have you ever known the Hong merchants deal in opium? — Never, to my knowledge. 730. Do you understand the consumption of opium in China to be rapidly increasing r — Very rapidly. I think 1 stated that the year I left China the importation of opium was supposed to be between 13,000 and 14,000 chests, which was a very considerable increase. I have a statement of the consump- tion and value of the Indian opium in China, from 1818-19 to 1827-8. [{The "witness delivered in the sameJ^ SELFXT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 97 STATEMENT of Consumption and Value of Indian Opium in China, from 1818-19 to 1827-28. PATNA and BENARES. MALWAH. TOTAL. Chests. Value. Chests. Value. Chests. Value. Dollars- DoBars. DoBars. 1818-1819 3,050 3,050,000 1,530 1,109,250 4,580 4,159,250 1819-1820 2,970 3,667,950 1,630 1,915,250 4,600 6,583,200 1820-1821 3,050 5,795,000 1,720 2,605,800 4.770 8,400,800 1821-1822 2,910 6,038,250 1,718 2,276,350 4,628 8,314,600 1822-1823 1,822 2,828.930 4,000 5,160,000 5,822 7,988,930 1823-1824 2,910 4,656,000 4,172 3,8.59,100 7,082 8,515,10(J 1824-1825 2,655 3,119.625 6,000 4,500,000 8,6.55 7,619,625 1825-1826 3,442 3,141,755 6,179 4,466,450 9.621 7,608,205 1826-1827 3,661 3,668,-565 6,308 5,941,520 9,969 9,610,085 1827-1828 5,114 5,105,073 4,361 5,251,760 9,475 10,356,833 23 Feb. 1830. C. Marjoribanks, Canton, 10th November 1828. 731. Is that statement confined to opium which has passed the Company's sales in India, or does it include the opium which is smuggled from India to China? — I believe it includes the Malwa opium, which comes from the Portuguese port of Demaun. 782. Is there any Turkey opium imported into China? — There is. 733. To any considerable extent? — In some years, I believe, it has been to the extent of 500 or 600 peculs. The amount of a chest of opium is considered exactly one pecul. 734. Is the Turkey opium better or worse than the Indian opium ? — Very inferior; it is used by the Chinese to mix with the other opium. 735. Does it go from the Mediterranean ? — It is brought from the Levant ; chiefly from Smyrna, I believe. 736. By what class of traders ? — I have known it come from Sincapore ; and I have known it brought by American ships. 737. Have you known it brought by European ships ? — I do not remember any being brought by European ships. 738. Are you aware whether the Company's ships are allowed to take out any Turkey opium from England ? — They are not ; they are prohibited by a regulation of the Company. 739. Are the Bengal ships allowed to take out any opium ? — I do not know. N 7-10. Are 98 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 23 Feb. 1830. 740. Are you not aware that many officers in the India service have taken opium from Europe to China, and have been obHged to send it circuitously C. Mfajoriinnks, instead of taking it in the Company's ships? — I have been told that the '^' Company's officers have speculated in opium on their own account by having it sent on from India to Cliina. 741. Do you know upon what principle the Chinese government prohibit opium ? — Upon a moral principle. 742. In the statement you have delivered in, there is an account of 2,920 tales value of woollen remaining of the season of 1826-7, whilst the imports from Europe in that year of woollens amount to 1,279,000 tales ; can you state whether that is about the usual quantity of stock remaining in the Company's stores at Canton ? — The Company have very rarely any goods remaining on hand. It has occurred once or twice, when the importation has been larger than the market would take off; but they generally get rid of all goods as they are imported. 743. Have they any portion of their cotton, or iron, or lead which they export remaining in store ? — No. When I say no, I speak generally ; goods occasionally remaining over to a trifling extent. 744. Generally speaking then, the Company are able to dispose of their importations into China in the course of the season? — Certainly. 745. Are the Committee to understand that the amount on private account in this return of goods imported into China includes the country trade, the amount imported by officers of Company's ships, and all other British sub- jects? — I believe it does. 746. In the statement of the exports, it appears that the value of goods exported on account of tlie Company, with their charges, amounted to 8,765,000 dollars, consisting entirely of teas ; will you inform the Committee whether the Company trade in any other article, as an export, except teas? ' — Not now ; their investment is confined entirely to teas. They used to deal in raw-silk and nankeens, but they have not lately. 747. Are you aware why the trade in raw-silk and nankeens was discon- tinued? — The Company left those trades very much to their commanders and officers. 748. Were there any other articles, since you have been at Canton, besides silk and nankeens, in which the Company dealt? — None to my recollection, except tea. 749. Are you aware to what place the silk and nankeens are now prin- cipally exported from Canton? — I believe the manufactured silks exported from Canton go principally to America ; and the raw-silk comes a great deal of it to this country, and very little of it to America. 750. Are you aware that of late years a large quantity of raw silk has been sent to Sincapore? — I know consignments have been made of raw- silk to Sincapore ; 1 cannot state to what extent. 751. Is SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 99 751. Is any tea consigned to Sincapore ? — No tea can leave China except 23 Feb. 1830. under license of the East-India Company, which I have stated is frequently ~ — ' given to country ships to export to ports in Asia, for consumption in tliose '' -'^^"^o" ''""«•'> places. " ''■ 752. Has any license been granted to Sincapore? — Sincapore must have been included among other places. The license is, of course, to a limited amount, according to what appears to be the consumption in those places. 753. Is there any means of ascertaining the extent to which such licenses have been granted by the Factory at Canton to those several places? — A list of licenses which have been granted has been kept. 754. It appears that the imports on account of the Company were 4,500,000, and that the exports were 7,800,000 dollars ; how is the differ- ence in value made up ? — The Committee in China draw upon the Bengal treasury for the amount of the balance of the trade. 755. How does the operation take place, and how is the exchange made ? — The Company regulate that exchange generally according to the value of Sycee silver, which is Chinese bullion, and of dollars in the Chinese market, in order to ascertain at what rate they can secure the money being paid into their treasury for bills. The standard of Sycee silver and of dollars differs considerably. The value of Sycee silver is -^^^ parts of pure silver ; the standard value of dollars is computed at 89^ ; and notwithstanding that difference, the premium which the Chinese Sycee silver bears over the dollar is not generally above three per cent. ; so that, generally speaking, the Chinese give five per cent, premium for coined over uncoined bullion, the preference being given to coined bullion from a knowledge of the accu- racy of its standard. With reference to the rate at which the Sycee silver is in the Chinese market compared with dollars, the Company regulate their exchange upon Bengal. The treasury at Canton is generally opened under very favourable circumstances, inasmuch as of late years the Company have granted bills at 202, 203, and 204 sicca rupees for 100 dollars ; those bills are drawn upon the Bengal government, in most seasons, to the amount of about 3,000,000 of dollars. 7.56. What is it that makes the remittance so favourable to Bengal on the part of the Company ? — The Canton treasury forms, to a certain extent, a remittance for the proceeds of the sales of Indian productions of opium and of cotton. 757. Are the Committee to understand that a larger portion of the invest- ment of teas for England is provided by bills drawn by the Factory at Canton on the Bengal presidency ? — A portion of it is. I may say that the Company's home investment is entirely provided by the sale in China of English manufactures and productions of our Indian possessions. It is the proceeds of those possessions seeking a return to India that enables us to get money upon favourable terms. N 2 758. But 100 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 23 Feb. 1830. ^53. But those proceeds are supplied by private trade, not by any trade _, ^ ~ ' , which the Company has between India and China ? — They result from private £90 ' ^^^^^ between India and China, as well as imports from India on the Com- pany's account. 7.^9. Will you state if you can at what intrinsic value the Spanish dollar received in Canton for bills on Bengal may be valued in English money? — It varies ; dollars are more or less valuable in the market, according to the quantity of them ; 1 have known the exchange above 6s. and below 45. 760. In the statement that you have delivered in, it is stated that the Factory received for bills on the Honourable Court of Directors 78,200 dollars; do you know what was the exchange in that year? — I do not re- member at what rate that specific sum was drawn ; I should think it must have been 45. Sd. in that year ; but of late years the treasury at Canton has not been open for bills on the Court of Directors. 761. There is an item described as certificates 447,14-3 dollars received into the treasury at Canton ; will you state what certificates are ? — Bills which are granted by the Committee in Canton to commanders and officers in their service, to afford them the means of remittance for the profits upon their investments; they differ so far from bills, that the rate at which they are drawn remains to be adjusted by the Court in England. 762. There appears in the exports from Canton Sycee silver and Peruvian silver 6,094,000 tales ; is that exported by private merchants or by the Com- pany ? — The Company have occasionally sent dollars to Bengal ; they do not export Sycee silver. 763. Under what privilege is that silver exported? — The Chinese laws prohibit the exportation of any metals. Dollars are allowed to be exported from China, but not bullion ; but it has always been exported to a large amount. 764. Is any certificate obtained from the custom-house to permit the ex- portation of bullion from Canton? — Of dollars, not of Sycee silver. 765. Then all Sycee silver exported must be contraband ? — Its exportation is prohibited by law. 76G. Has the Company ever exported any dollars or Sycee silver since you were at Canton ? — Dollars they have. 767. To what places have they exported them? — To Bengal. 768. Are you able to state what quantity they have exported ? — I remem- ber one season to the amount of half a million sterling. 769. Was that export of silver a surplus of money after providing for their investment, or was it silver obtained for bills granted in Bengal ? — It arose in that season from the imports having sold at a much better profit than was expected, and the treasury containing more money than was required for the provision of the home investment, it being contemplated by the Select Committee SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 101 Committee that the supply would be very seasonable to the Bengal govern- 03 p^i, 1830. nient at the time the dollars were sent. 770. In what year was that?— It must have been in I8I7, I tiiink. ^- ^f"rjorlh"nk.^ 771« You stated on a former day, that the competition on the })art of the English merchants, if the trade was opened, .'would raise the price of teas. Is not tea almost the only article which has been kept at a fixed or nearly fixed rate in China since you have been at Canton ? — I have mentioned variations which have taken place in the price of tea during my recollection. 772. Are you aware that cassia, silk, camphor, and generally the exports of China have been reduced in price, whilst tea has remained nearly stationary? — No ; I do not know the fact that all exports of China have been reduced in price, 773' Did not the competition of the Americans raise the price of some peculiar sorts of tea? — With respect to the green teas, it has always had that tendency. 774. Are they much higher now than they were ? — They are higher than they were, and we find greater difficulty in obtaining them. 775. Do you know the proportion in which they have risen ? — I cannot state that from recollection. 776. Is it not in the power of the Americans, or any other country, if they give a higher price than the Company, to obtain tea? — I should think it was. 777- Can you state whether green tea is used by the natives in China, or whether it is not principally an article of export? — I have been told that it was principally for the foreign market, but I believe it is also used in the country, 778. Have you any reason to doubt the capability of its increase to any amount to which the demand might arise ? — I have already stated, that of late years there has been more demand for it than the supply would meet, from which I should be led to doubt the capability of its increase. 779. Has not that arisen from the great demand which America has had for green tea, they being the principal customers ? — That has entered into the causes of it. 780. Are you aware what increase has taken place in the exports of green tea, including the supply to America as well as to the Company during the seventeen years you have been at Canton? — I cannot state it from recol- lection. 781. Are you not aware that it has been considerably increased ? — I be- lieve the export of all teas has considerably increased, and the export ol green has increased in common with the others : the Company's exports of teas from China have within my recollection increased considerably. 782. Are you able to state whether the Americans purchase the greater part of their teas from the outside merchants or from the Hong merchants ? — I believe 102 EVIDENCE OF EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: •« Feb. 1830. 1 believe the best part of the American business, that is, the most respectable i)art, is conducted with the Hong merchants. C. Marjorihanks, „„t- -.1,1 -i i, 1 1 Pf. 783. Is It not notorious that the outside merchants supply a very large proportion of the American trade ? — I do not know what proportion. I have stated that the outside dealers frequently make shipments through the Hongs of the junior merchants to very considerable extent ; I have no means of ascertaining what that extent is. 784. You were understood to state that by the firmness and conduct of the Select Committee, they have been able to resist impositions on the part of the Hong merchants? — Innovations on our privileges by the government, and attempts to raise the prices of teas by the merchants. We cannot afford any innovation on our privileges, for they are limited enough ; but those attempts that have been made to raise the prices of teas by combinations among the merchants, have been put down by the Company. 785. If the Company had no longer a Factory there, but the British inte- rests were represented by a consul, what, in your opinion, would be the effect of an union of all the European consuls at Canton, in case of any attempt at imposition on the part of the Hong merchants? — I conceive that the interests of different European merchants resident in China would be so likely to be at variance, that it would be very difficult to reckon on the possibility of such an union. But supposing such an improbable result to take place, I conceive the Company's authority would derive very little acquisition of power or influence from such an association. 78G. You have stated that the influence of the Company depends upon their being the largest dealers at Canton ? — I have stated that as one cause of the power and influence of the East-India Company. 787. Are you not aware that the influence of any nation, or of any indi- vidual in a series of years in a commercial port, must depend upon the extent to which they carry on their trade ; and ifi under the protection of a British consul, the British trade was increased by being thrown open, is it not probable that the influence of that consul and of that nation would continue as great as that of the Company ? — No ; I do not believe that the Chinese government would consent to receive a King's consul : I mean, to acknow- ledge him as the representative of the sovereign of this country, or to receive him in the character which we attach to him. Even on occasion of an embassy, the name given by the Chinese to an ambassador is that of a tribute bearer, a man who brings presents from an inferior Prince to lay them at the feet of their Celestial Emperor. I believe if the Company's chief were vested viith the power of a consul to-morrow, that his condition in the estimation of the Chinese would not be altered. In cases where our men-of-war have been in China, or any King's officers, the Chinese have shown every indisposition to acknowledge them. I do not believe that the Chinese would be brought to acknowledge a King's representative under the impression which we have of such a representative. 788. Was SELECT COMMITTEE ok the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 103 788. Was not Lord Amlierst the representative of the King, and not of 23 Feb. I83(i. the Company ? — He was the King's ambassador. C M'irjnrihanks, 789. Was not he received as such ? — I repeat, that the Chinese have no hlxq name for an ambassador ; they consider him as a mere bearer of presents — tribute as they call it. A person personatiiag Ids Sovereign, in the capacity of a negociator, is one that their laws do not consent to recognize. In an interview of an ambassador with Chinese authorities, they ask him how old his king is, and how old he himself is, or how many children he has. If important business is alluded to, they start as if a hidden snare was laid open, and are silent. They are ever ready to bring in aid of their views the most unfounded falsehoods ; and with these the more venial equivocations of European policy are but little able to contend. 790. Was not Lord Macartney received, and had lie not an audience of the Emperor, as the representative of the King of England ? — He was received, but not in the character which we attach to a King's represen- tative. 791. Does not that arise from their not conceiving that any foreign power is on an equality with the Emperor ? — In some measure, from presumption of that kind. They consider China the centre of civilization, and their Emperor the sovereign of the universe. 792. Are you able to state whether they consider their government more on an equality with the King's representative than the Company's represen- tative ? — They know the King's representative to be a man of high rank. I stated, with reference to a Kind's consul at Canton, that I do not believe the Chinese would recognize such a person, attaching to him the same character that we do. 793. Do you conceive they ever would have received ^ deputation from the Company as they received a deputation from the King of England at Pekin ? — No, I do not, although we have little to boast of the reception given to either of our embassies. In reply to this question I may state, that the members of the Select Committee were requested to proceed to Pekin, I think in the year 1789, to be present at the celebration of the Emperor's birth-day. They declined proceeding there, it being understood that they would be required to submit to very humiliating compliances. Had they gone, I believe they would have been treated very much as other deputed persons have been. 794. Then why should not the representative of the King of England, as a consul at Canton, if he has a superintendence and control of the same extent of trade, be equally respected with any representative of the Com- pany ? — I think the conduct of the trade gives the Company's representative an advantage, as well as that the Chinese have been accustomed to no other. There is at this moment a King's consul in China, liaving a diploma from the King of Hanover. I believe his existence, as a public functionary, is as 104 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 23 Feb. 1830. as little known among the Chinese as in this country. When a British ~ — - admiral was in China the Chinese would not receive him. The Committee ' '"''^"^''"""^■^' said, here is the King's authority, appeal to him ; they said, we know no ' ' such authority ; we recognize none other but that of the Company to which we have been accustomed, and all transactions with them must be through their representative. 795. The Committee understood from you that the Chinese government are very unwilling to trade with any country ; that they are, in a great measure, independent of foreign trade ? — I stated that I believed that China, more perhaps than any country in the world, was independent of foreign commerce, inasmuch as it possessed nearly every variety of climate, and had the necessaries and luxuries of liie supplied by successful agriculture and extensive inland commerce. I did not say that the Chinese were averse to trade ; I believe any aversion to foreigners to have its basis in political jealousy. 796. Vv^ill you have the goodness to state in what manner the Company were able, in 1814, when they stopped the trade with China, to succeed in carrying their point, and in resisting the demands made upon them at that time ? — By perseverance, I believe. 797. That is to say, by stopping the trade ? — By stopping the trade, in the first instance, and by firmness and decision until their objects were obtained. 798. Did they not stop the whole British trade? — Yes, they did. 799- Were they able to stop the trade of any other Europeans? — Any other Europeans were not involved in the question, and the Company never thought of attempting it. 800. What, in your estimation, was the inducement to that concession on the part of the Chinese ? — I should say, a knowledge as well of the power and influence of the East-India Company, as well as a great reluc tance on the part of the Chinese generally, that they should be deprived of the advantages of their trade. I am not aware that I stated that the Chinese were independent of foreign trade ; I stated that they attached a very con- siderable value to it. 801. Are you able, from any documents you have ever seen, to ascertain the amount of the duties which the foreign trade of Canton produces to the government? — I have already stated that I had heard it estimated that the Imperial duties sent to Pekin were 2,000,000 of dollars. I have also heard it called 2,000,000 of tales. 802. Who were the parties at variance in that dispute between the Hong merchants and the officers of the Company ? — The dissension was between the Chinese government and the representatives of the Company. 803. Was not the local government at Canton backed by the Imperial government at Pekin ? — It was. 804. Then SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 105 801'. Then are the Committee to understand, that the stand made on the ~^ Feb. 1 830. part of the Company, by the stoppage of the trade, was sufficient to induce Marmihanhs, the Imperial government to give up the resistance they had made to the de- Enn. mands of the Company ? — The resistance made by the Company at that time produced the result which I have stated j but no demands were made by the Company from the Imperial government of Pekin. 805. Do not you imagine that the stoppage of the trade caused "reat inconvenience to the merchants, and that it was their influence which in- disced the government to yield ? — I beheve it produced great inconvenience to all classes connected with foreign trade ; great personal inconvenience to the merchants themselves, and, of course, to all natives in an}' way connected with the trade. 806. You stated, that there had been an edict issued by the Imperial government, which the Company's officers resisted ; was there any edict of revocation ? — I cannot state whether there was an edict of revocation, or whether it became a dead letter. 807. How long did the suspension of the trade continue ? — About two months. 80S. Was there any other reason assigned for withdrawing the order of prohibition than the inconvenience arising from the stoppage of the trade ? — I dare say there were many reasons assigned for it ; I only know what reasons I assigned myself. 809. Are you aware whether the Viceroy of Canton has any interest or participation in the profits arising from the commerce at Canton ? — I should think he had. 810. If the prices of woollens and of the different articles of import into Canton were reduced, would not the trade of Canton be thereby consider- ably increased ? — That is too general a question for me to answer. 811. In those years when woollens have been cheaper than ordinary, have you sold more of them or not? — The Company's supply of woollens has been regulated with reference to the supposed demand, taking one year with another. 812. Have you known the price of woollens considerably lower by the im- ports of American or other foreigners ? — I have known the importation of Dutch camlets to interfere with the sale of British. 813. Have the prices in China been lowered in proportion to the lowering of the prices in this country ? — The sale prices of the Company's woollens in China have very materially decreased within my recollection. 814. In fixing the price there, do you fix any per-centage of profit upon the English prices? — We are regulated by the demand of the Chinese market without much reference to the cost value. O 815. Are 106 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 23 Feb. 1830. 815. Are you aware that the quantity of woollens imported by the Com- pany decreased from the years 1809 and 1810, when they were 202,000 C. Marjoribanks, pieces, to 123,000 in 182? and 1828?— I believe the statements laid by the '*^' Company before Parliament on this subject to be correct. 816. Have you any means of knowing whether the imports by the Ame- ricans and other nations in the same time have increased much more than this decrease ? — I am not prepared to draw a comparison. 817. Is it within your knowledge that the Company have admitted indi- vidual merchants in London to fill up any vacant tonnage in their ships upon their application for the export of woollens to China ? — I have been told that they have done so. 818. Can you state at what rate per ton ? — I cannot. 819. Were the goods so exported confined to the Company's Factory at China, or were they at the full disposal of the merchants that sent them there ? — My recollection is, that they were not confined to the Factory. 820. Were they a free consignment to any house established at Canton ? — I believe so. 821. What could they receive in return for those goods ? — I do not know. 822. Are you certain that the Company have permitted persons to send out manufactures from England, leaving them the disposal of the consign- ment at China, and not confining them to the Company's Factory ? — That is my impression ; but I am not certain of the fact. I believe goods belonging to private merchants have also been sent out in the privilege ton- nage of officers. 823. Are you aware whether the Company's servants have ever made any representation to the Hong merchants on the subject of the American deal- ings with them ; that is, on the increase of dealings with the outside merchants? — There were some discussions which took place in the year be- fore last, in which the Company were engaged, which had reference to the question. 824. What was the nature of that correspondence on the part of the Company with the Hong merchants ? — The greater part of the proceedings on that occasion has been published ; it was not a correspondence which was confined to the Hong merchants, but extended to the government. Though a member of the Select Committee, I was absent from China at the Indian presidencies when the discussion took place, and I differed in opinion with the Select Committee as to the expediency of several of the measures adopted. 825. Have you seen the documents? — I have. 82G. Can you state the nature of it ? — The discussions with which the Committee were connected originated in the bankruptcy of the Hong mer- chant Manhop. At the period of his bankruptcy it appeared that his insol- vency SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 107 vency was very much owing to his connexion with the outside dealers ; and 23 Feb 1830. the Hong merchants generally, as a body, were very anxious that the extent — of that dealing should be limited, inasmuch as they had sustained very serious C. Marjorihankx, losses from being held responsible for the bankruptcy of junior merchants. J'^^f/- The Americans being connected with some of the outside dealers in question, were desirous to support them, and anxious that the Hong merchants should nowise interfere with them. The American merchants had, by the temptation of higher prices, succeeded in some previous seasons in diverting from the Company's investment a portion of the teas which were contracted for by the Hong merchants ; and it was with the view to prevent the recurrence of that, that the Committee gave every encouragement in their power to the Hong merchants, to prevent as much as possible the connexion of the outside dealers with the juniors of the Hong. 827. Are the Committee to understand that the Hong merchants of their own accord were willing to deal with the Americans, and had dealt with the Americans, but that the Company's servants interfered to prevent it ? — No ; 1 did not state that. 828. Did not the Company's servants interfere to prevent the Hong mer- chants dealing with the Americans? — No, not the Hong merchants. 829. You have stated that the Select Committee were vested by law with power to exercise a control over all British subjects at Canton. Do you apprehend that there would be any danger to the British interests at Canton if English free traders were permitted to export teas from hence to the Con- tinent of Europe, supposing that the ships' crews and supercargoes were, whilst in ( hina, subject to the control of the Select Committee, in the same way as all British subjects resorting to Canton now are ? — I have stated gene- rally, that I conceive any great extension of the private trade in Canton would have a tendency to endanger its security, inasmuch as there would be a greater resort of British subjects there, and they would be more likely to come into collision with the Chinese. 830. Do you apprehend there would be any danger to the British interests at Canton if English subjects were permitted to trade between the United Kingdom and China in every thing but tea, supposing the tea monopoly to continue as it now is, in the hands of the East-India Company ? — I think I have already answered this question. I conceive also there would be a considerable temptation to smuggle tea into this country. 831. Supposing that, in addition to the powers now vested in the Select Committee at Canton by law, they were accredited from the Crown, and acted solely as a consulate, without having any concern in trade either for themselves or others, but exercising a full control over all British ships and subjects resorting to Canton, would there be any danger, under such circum- stances, in throwing the trade entirely open ? — I do not think they could possess, under such circumstances, the power they do at present, inasmuch as the control of the commerce adds materially to their influence. O 2 832. Do 108 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 93 Feb 1830 ^^^' ^^ Y^^ think that the Americans, upon the whole, purchase their tea L less cheaply or more cheaply than the Company? — The Company, I think, C. Marjoribanks , purchase their tea on more advantageous terms. I conceive that impression i'sq- to exist upon the minds of the Americans themselves, inasmuch as I have frequently seen the word " Company" printed, which is not the habit with the Company's investments, upon tea-chests consigned on board American vessels. I was informed that the name " Company" attached a quality to those teas among the Americans, which would not belong to them if that mark was not upon the chest. This left an impression upon my mind, that even in America the belief was that the Company got better teas than any other purchasers. 833. Are you aware of a proclamation issued on July the 2d, 1828, per- mitting an intercourse between the Americans and the outside merchants in certain articles, althougli excluding them in others ? — The outside merchants were always permitted to deal in certain articles, china-ware and all retail goods. They used to trade at the same time in manufactured silks; but that was by a connivance of the law. Within the last two years they have received permission to deal in manufactured silks as well as in other articles. 834. Do you recollect the issuing of the proclamation referred to? — I have read the proclamation. 835. Was that subsequent to the discussion that took place between the supercargoes and the Hong merchants ? — It was subsequent to the discussions to which I have alluded. 836. Was it about that period? — It was in consequence of the discussions that had taken place. 837. Can you state whether teas may not be frequently procured at Manilla and many of the eastern islands as cheap as in China, and with the same facility ? — I have never understood so to any amount. 838. It appears in the Report of the Committee which sat in the year 1813, that Mr. James Drummond, now Lord Strathallan, who was the chief of the Company's Factory, gave his opinion that they certainly could be procured as cheap, and frequently cheaper; do you concur in that opinion? — I believe it could not be procured at those places in any quantity and of good quality. As far as Manilla is concerned, the Spaniards have shown little disposition to encourage the resort of British subjects to that place. 839. If the English trade were to become a free trade, and no longer in the hands of the Company, would not that, in your opinion, break up the Hong and cause a diirerent constitution of the Chinese trade? — I conceive it would lead to results upon which no person could speculate, from the very peculiar character of the Chinese. I should be sorry to say that the English power could not compel the Chinese to come to any terms they chose to dictate, but the result of that, I think, would be an interruption of the ami- cable relations that now subsist. Admitting that such an open trade could be /;> 7- SELECT COMMITTEE OF the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 109 be quietly conducted, the Hong merchants might possess an almost unlimited 23 Feb. 183ii. power over it, were they to form a close combination against individual traders, and received, at the same time, the support of their government. '- • ^l<^>'.'pr'ihanki'. 840. As those relations are merely relations of trade, are you not of opinion that the trade would find its own relations after a little time of con- fusion that might perhaps result from the change ? — I conceive it is very difficult to apply general principles to the Chinese, or the conduct of their government. 84-1. Supposing the trade to continue a monopoly trade for the consump- tion of teas in England, and that English ships and English merchants were permitted to carry on an indirect China trade, that is to say, a trade between China and other parts of the world ; would that, in your opinion, endanger in any way the authority of the Company's Factory in China ; — I have stated that 1 think every increase of the resort of British subjects to China would more or less affect the security of the trade. 842. Is not the resort of British subjects to China always necessarily con- fined to a very small spot ? — It is. 843. Are you of opinion that, even if the commercial intercourse was increased, that could affect the peace of the country out of the reach of that small district to which it is confined? — I do not think the Chinese would increase the limits in proportion to the increased resort of British subjects. 844. As the amount of trade would probably not be augmented, but the onlji difference would be that British subjects would cany on a portion of that trade which is now carried on by the Americans and others, could that either require a larger extent of ground upon which to carry it on, or could it in any way involve the Company's Factory in any increased risk or danger? — It would be in proportion to the increased extent of such a trade ; the probable involvement in difficulties with the Chinese would be regulated by that. 845. Suppose twenty British ships should be substituted to carry on the trade which twenty American ships now do with the continent of Europe, and that the Company should remain as they now are with the monopoly of the English market, would any danger arise from that substitution ? — I believe that twenty American ships are not now employed in the trade. 846. Suppose that substitution to take place, whatever the number might be?— It depends very materially upon the number; I think the danger ■would be in proportion to the increase. 847. Supposing a like number of British ships to replace the Americans which have carried on the carrying trade of Europe, would there be any danger in that case ? — I think there is a difference on this account, that the crews of English ships come more readily into collision with the Chinese than the crews of the American ships ; there is a more prudent and wary character 110 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 23 Feb. 1830. character belonging to the American, when compared with the careless and — ; — ; reckless spirit of English sailors ; in that case, I think danger might result if (.. Ma^ari janks, jj^Qgg fng,^ were in ships which were not under any well-regulated discipline '^'^' and control. The superiority of the ships of the Company in point of dis- cipline and arrangement is generally manifest ; in proof of their superior efficiency I may mention, that since I have been acquainted with China, indeed for the last twenty-four years, there has not been one single instance of a homeward-bound China ship being either lost or captured. During this period between 400 and 500 of these fine merchantmen, the most perfect ever known in the commercial history of the world, must have navigated between China and Great Britain, a part of the distance of 14,000 or 1.5,000 miles, being through seas of difficult and dangerous navigation. This may, 1 think, be received as a proof of the efficiency of the China ships of the Company, as well as of the skill of the officers by whom they are commanded ; many other advantages might be stated which they possess. 848. Has any inconvenience resulted from the increased number of country ships trading to China ? — There has been no proportionately in- creased resort of Europeans to what would take place in the event of an open trade, inasmuch as the crews of the country ships are composed of Lascars ; but I have known some violent acts take place in China from persons connected with country ships. I may mention one which occurred three years ago amongst the ships at Lintin. The captains of some of those ships, which were American and country ships, saw a Chinese boat captured by one of the custom-house boats, which were there upon duty. They imagined that the Chinese boat contained one of their own people, and they immediately went to his rescue. Upon going alongside the Chinese war vessel they were warned off; and upon insisting upon going on board, stones were thrown at them by the crew of the Chinese vessel. The Lascars in the boat were ordered to fire upon the Chinese boat, and upon that occasion one Chinese was killed and ten wounded, one of whom afterwards died. The Chinese government considered that it was the act of pirates, and indeed it very much deserved that character. A stoppage of the trade might have taken place, but the Chinese were at that moment in no temper to enter into discussions. It was discovered afterwards that no person belonging to these ships had been seized by the Chinese war vessel. I conceive this was con- duct which the Company's representatives in China, if appealed to by the Chinese, must have considered indefensible. 849. In what year was this? — In 1827. 850. Have you ever known any such act committed by British subjects in China ? — This act was committed by British subjects. I have known affrays of sailors with the Chinese. 851. Can you recollect any instance of any boat's crew of an Indiaman trader acting in the way in whicii you have stated the crew of that vessel did ? — No, I do not remember any instance that I can compare with it. 852. Are SELECT COMMITTEE ok the HOUSE OF COMMONS. Ill 852. Are not there sometimes British sailors on board the country ships ? ^"^ ^''^^- '^•^" ~~ "^ * C. jSI'irJoribankn. 853. Were you at Canton at the time when Sir Murray Maxwell forced ;• w/. his way up the river ? — I was. 854. Did not he fire into the fort ? — He did, and the walls of the fort were in part blown down. 855. What was the result of that? — Sir Murray Maxwell, upon arriving in the Canton river, was molested by the Chinese war vessels. He appealed to the Viceroy of Canton. No attention was paid to his appeal, and he determined upon moving up the river. Upon his being fired at by the forts, he laid his ship to, and fired several broadsides into them, when he proceeded up the river and anchored in the harbour of Canton. A Chinese deputation came the next day from the Viceroy to congratulate the Committee upon the manner in which Captain Maxwell had conducted himself. We were hardly prepared for such a result, but upon asking an explanation, they stated, that though he had been fired upon by the fort, he had not fired a single gun in return, and that in consequence he might be permitted to come up the river. In point of fact, it was more than tlie Viceroy's situation or perhaps life was worth, to admit the ppssibility of an English frigate forcing the port. 856. Did not they allow a vessel commanded by Captain Hall to come up immediately afterwards ? — Captain Hall was in company with Captain Maxwell, and came up either at the same time or soon afterwards. 857. Was not it the fact that the Lyra, in which Captain Hall was, was not stopped as the Alceste had been ? — To the best of my recollection she was not molested, at least to no great extent. 858. Do not some of the Americans keep some fast-sailing vessels for the purpose of forcing a contraband trade on the coast of China? — Not that I was aware of. During the period of the American war the American vessels that came to China were very sharp built, partly acting as privateers, and partly to enable them to escape from our men-of-war. I should say that the Americans have lately altered the construction of their vessels, they now build squarer ships. 859. Are you aware of any fast vessels being kept, there for the purpose of smuggling upon the coast .' — I have never known that they were built for that purpose. I have known American schooners engaged in the trade, and these were fast vessels. 860. Are not the smugglers of China a very powerful body ; do not they move in considerable fleets upon the shore ?— Not in fleets ; their boats are very well manned and armed. 861. Do not they set the government at defiance ? — Entirely, I should say, where they have sea room. 862. Do 112 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 23 Feb. 1S30. 802. Do you suppose that the government is capable of keeping them -7 — : under ? — They possess no marine force capable, in my opinion, of suppressing 803. Is the force of the smugglers upon the increase or upon the decrease ? — The smuggling trade of China is materially upon the increase. 864. In what way do the Portuguese at Macao buy and sell with the Chinese ? — The Portuguese trade at Macao is very limited. Following gradually the decline of the power and resources of the mother country, they have dwindled into insignificance. The Portuguese have frequently applied for the privileges of trade at Canton, which have always been refused them. They are obliged to have their teas brought from Canton, but they are not allowed to reside there ; they are confined to Macao, which at one time was a very important settlement, but now exhibits only the ruins of former prosperity. 865. During the time when the commerce of Portugal to Macao was con- siderable, did the Chinese go down to Macao to buy their articles and sell others, or how was the trade carried on ? — It was variously carried on. At one time by a coalition between Chinese and Portuguese merchants, which lasted but a very short period, as the Chinese were found to be very much their superiors in industry, as ^ell as in the arts of deception. They were afterwards compelled to purchase from the Hong merchants, and in trifling articles from the outside merchants. 866. Has any trade arisen with the Brazils ? — Not to any extent, that I am aware of. 867. Is there any considerable coasting trade carried on by the Chinese themselves? — There is, I believe; I do not know to what extent. 868. Do you know whether any vessels sail from their ports to the islands of the Eastern Archipelago ? — Yes, they do ; few proceed from Canton, from the circumstance, I conclude, that the produce of the islands of the Archipelago is brought there in foreign ships. Tlie principal trade of these junks is from the province of Fokien, the province where the black tea is grown. 869. Of what size are the vessels ? — I have heard the largest estimated at 600 tons. They are by no means sea-worthy. S70. Are you aware that they import tea into Sincapore ? — I have seen statements of it, but I have no personal acquaintance with it. 871. Have you ever heard of the American vessels smuggling it directly from the tea provinces ? — Never. 872. Are you aware that the Chinese vessels now go to Bengal ? — No, I am not aware of that. 873. Do those vessels that leave China for the purposes of foreign trade require any license, or is the trade contraband ? — The principle of the Chinese government has always been to prevent the emigration of its subjects SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 113 subjects, and to discourage their engaging in foreign commerce. No insur- 23 Feb. 1830 mountable impediments are placed in the way of the Chinese foreign trade, "" — though it has been disclaimed by the government, as being an improper ^' Matjordianks, trade for its subjects to engage in. ^*' 874. Are the Chinese permitted to leave China by law ? — They are not by law. 875. Is not a considerable portion of the population of Sincapore, Chinese? — It is ; nearly all the islands of the Eastern Archipelago are inha- bited by Cliinese, who form the most industrious portion of the population. 876. Have you ever been in the interior of the country ? — I have not, to any great distance. 877. When the Chinese go to reside in foreign countries, are they allowed to export their wives? — No. The Chinese who go to foreign countries seem never to go there with a view to fixed residence. They are remarkable for their nationality, and as soon as they collect a competence tliey return. They are prohibited from emigrating from China, and that prohibition of course extends to their wives, which is an additional assignable reason for their not becoming fixed colonists. 878. Are not woollens worn by the natives at Canton during the winter months ? — They are. 879. Are not the cold months at Canton February and March ? — The cold season is from November to April. 880. Is not the climate at that period much colder at Canton than it is at Calcutta ? — It is ; the two climates are distinctly different, though nearly on the same parallel of latitude. 881. Is there much intercourse between the Chinese and Japan.? — There is some intercourse between the Chinese and Japan, but to a limited extent; the Chinese are looked upon at Japan with the same distrust as other foreigners, perhaps more so, from the proximity of their empire to Japan. 882. What difficulties exist with respect to any trade with Cochin China and Siam ? — The extreme jealousy of the governments, and the kings of these countries putting themselves forward as the first merchants in their dominions, requiring the right of pre-emption of all commodities, and attaching their own prices to them. We have endeavoured to propitiate their favour by unsuccessful missions, which have tended to injure our trade rather than promote its interests. That description of wretched truckling to the despots of these ultra-gangetic nations and persons, in the capacity of British representatives, walking about without shoes among white elephants and monkies, has only tended to degrade our national character without ob- taining for us any commercial advantages. 883. Supposing the European trade were excluded from China, would it not resort to the islands in the Eastern Archipelago? — I think that great P difficulties Esq. 114 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 23 Feb. 1830. difficulties would arise in the way of its resort there, from the cumbrous and — "• unwieldy nature of the Chinese vessels, and the insecurity which is supposed C. Mmyonbanks, ^^ attach to property embarked in them ; from the difficulties which might be placed in the way by the Chinese government of the export of tea to any great quantity from China. They have prevented the export of tea in native vessels by sea to Canton. 884. Are the transactions of the smuggling trade carried on with as much fidelity and regularity on the part of the Chinese as the transactions of the regular trade ? — With wonderful regularity, considering the nature of the trade ; certainly not with the same regularity as those of the legal trade. 885. Are you acquainted with the transactions in Sycee ? — Yes, I am. 886. Are those carried on with regularity P^With extreme regularity. 887. Is not that a trade in which, if there was not regularity, there would be exposure to fraud ? — It is from its nature very open to fraud; at the same time, the employment of the persons that deal in Sycee depends entirely upon their preserving their character. 888. And the result is, that those transactions are very regulaf ? — Won- derfully so. 889. Supposing the same establishment that the Company now have at Canton were to be continued as deputies or representatives of the Crown, and to have the same control, or a greater control over every British subject resorting to China than they now have, could not, in that case, a free trade be carried on without any risk or danger ? — Not with the same secu- rity that exists at present. 890. Supposing they had the same power, why should they not act on behalf of the King as they now act on behalf of the Company ? — Their possessing the power of King's consul would give them a greater control over British subjects, but would eifect little change in their character in the estimation of the Chinese. 891. Suppose they were vested with thepower of imprisoning and sending away, and controlling in any way the crews of the vessels resorting to the port of Canton, can you see any difficulty there would be in carrying on a free trade ? — I think the answers I have previously given go to show difficulties as likely to exist. The Select Committee possess the power of deportation, as it is called, already, by a clause in the charter of 1813. 892. Do you think that the great trade which the Company carry on there gives them an authority which would not be possessed by persons not carrying on trade ? — Unquestionably it gives them both power and in- fluence. 893. Would not a greater degree of trade carried on by Englishmen, under their authority, give them a greater influence ? — I do not know that it would. 89*. Is SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 115 894. Is the danger you apprehend from the unlimited resort of British 23 Feb. 1830. merchants ? — It is, in some jpeasure. C. Marjoribanhs, Esq. Jovis, 25" die Februarii, 1830. WILLIAM BROWN, Esq. called in, and examined. 895. You are the head of an extensive commercial establishment at Liverpool trading with the United States of America, and carrying on business upon commission for other persons engaged in that business ? — I am. 896. Are you very extensively engaged in it ? — Tolerably so. 897* As extensively as any other house in Liverpool ? — I presume we are. 898. Have you been employed, either on your own account or on account of other persons, citizens of the United States, to ship goods, being British manufactures, to China from this country ? — We have. 899. To what extent ? — Probably that question will be most correctly an- swered by a memorandum from my books. This is an exact account of the ?imount which we have from time to time shipped, the total amount i^ £74-4,257. 8s. 6d.; in November 1821, £66,751. 195. 4rf. ; in March 1822, £64,256. 185. 3d. ; in March 1823, £50,834 125. 8s.Sd.; in August, £48,818. 15.y. Qd. The sums I have stated were the amount of invoices with charges after deducting drawbacks. Some of the ships took some specie, the amount of which cannot be ascertained with accuracy, but in the whole it cannot have exceeded £10,000 j the rest was British dry goods, and some other small matters. 900. Were those goods shipped for Canton, or were they shipped for any other place ? — They were shipped for Canton, but we generally cleared out for Batavia. 901. Had you any particular reason for preferring to clear out for Java instead of clearing out direct for Canton ? — So long as my friends con- sidered the business worth following, they were willing that it should be as little known as possible to others. 902. Was it from a dread of exciting competition that you conceive they wished to clear out for Batavia instead of Canton ? — I presume it was. 903. What proportion do you conceive that the manufactured goods, which you shipped upon agency for China, bears to the whole export of P 2 manufactured 25 Feb. 1830. W. Brown, Esq. 116 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 25 Feb. 1830. manufactured goods in neutral bottoms from this country to Canton ? — To „ ~ that on American account, I should suppose might be one-half or one-third ; rown, 'sq. ^^^^ j ^^^^^^ speak with any degree of accuracy as to that point. 904. But you know that other houses have shipped goods on American account from this country to Canton ? — I know they have. 905. Have you any means of knowing whether those speculations have turned out profitable or otherwise to the parties ? — Latterly they have been very unprofitable ; the last three or four years. 906 Can you explain the circumstances that have led to their being so unprofitable? — I think there are various causes why they have been unprofit- able. One probability is the circumstance of the East-India Company having supplied Canada direct with teas, which prevented teas being smuggled into the Canadas from the United States ; another cause probably is, that the markets of Europe have been more shut against the Americans by prohibitory duties, and in consequence of more direct trade between those countries and Canton in their own bottoms. 907. You mean the return trade from China in tea ? — Yes. Another cause, which I should think has probably still more bearing upon the American trade with India and China is, that the credit given for duties in the United States is long. The credit given on ships coming from China is six, twelve, and eighteen months, except on teas ; there is upon them a credit of twelve months on the duties after they are taken out of bond ; and those facilities, I conceive, have furnished capital, which has produced over-trading, and made the trade eventually not so profitable. 908. What was the largest import of tea from Canton to the United States prior to this over-trading ? — I am not able to answer that question. 909. But you know, generally, that there was an excess of supply of tea, as compared with the demand in America ? — Yes, I am quite aware of that. 910. Do you recollect in what year this excess of supply which has made the trade so unprofitable, first became manifest in America? — I think it began to be felt four years ago. 911. Do you mean to state to the Committee, that the losses sustained in this trade were upon the returns from China, rather than from the exports from this country ? — I confine myself altogether to the returns from China. 912. You stated that the continental duties upon tea imported from the United States were raised; at what period was tliat alteration? — I cannot state exactly the period ; 1 merely know the fact of there having been obstacles in the way of trade that have caused some impediment to that free shipment they before enjoyed. 913. Do you apprehend that before the East-India Company undertook to send teas direct from Canton to the British provinces in North America, that those provinces were principally supplied from the United States? — I have no TV. Brown, K.^q. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. II7 no doubt that tliey were supplied to a considerable extent from the United 25 Feb. 1830. States ; the precise extent I cannot state. 914. Do you believe that any supply now comes from the United States to the Britisii provinces.' — I think, if any thing, it is the reverse. 915. You think it is more probable that teas are introduced from Canada into the United States ? — I think it is very probable they are, under existing circumstances. 916. What is the rate of duty upon tea in the United States? — It varies, depending upon the description of tea ; but that I am not altogether able to answer. I am aware that it is a high duty, but I cannot state exactly what it is. 917- You stated that a credit is given for the duties for as long a period as eighteen months in some cases, and that this credit has been the means of given facility to over-trading, by creating a capital in the hands of parties who were embarked in those speculations ? — That is my opinion. 918. Of course, the amount of the capital so created in their hands must depend upon the amount of duty ? — Certainly. 919. From the statement you read, there appears to have been a consider- able shipment of goods in the last year? — There has been. 920. Is the trade reviving on the part of the United States ? — I cannot say that it is; but it has been so long bad, that the parties embarking in those speculations have a reasonable hope and expectation that it will revive for their imports to the United States by the time the vessels return. 921. What are the returns from China to the United States? — Principally teas and silks. I should say that the prices of teas are a little better in the United States, but nothing of any moment. 922. Of course you have opportunities of communicating with captains and owners of vessels which you freighted, and with supercargoes that have traded to China ; did they ever state to you any difficulties that occurred with respect to the sale of their goods, or the purchase of the teas, or other commodities in China, by the inteiposition of the Chinese authorities in Canton ? — I make it my business frequently to inquire of captains of those vessels the nature of the C hinese trade, and I never was aware that any difficulty whatever arose on the part of the constituted authorities there, but the reverse ; I have understood that they were very much disposed to culti- vate the trade, and to atibrd every reasonable facility. 923. Do you know whether the United States have any establishment at Canton to protect or to facilitate their trade ? — At one time they had a consul there ; but I am not certain whether they have at this moment or not. 924. Do you know whether the purchases made by the supercargoes of the ships in which you are interested were made through the Hong mer- chants, or partly from the Hong merchants and partly from other merchants, traders 118 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 25 Feb. 1830. traders in tea ? — The course of trade, I apprehend, on the anivai of a ship _ in China, is, in the first instance, to apply to the Hong, the supercargo, or n . hrotai, Esq. resident, who makes the contract with the Hong, makes the best bargain he can with him, and generally gives him the preference in purchasing some of his cargo from him ; but in every instance I have ever known of, he has been at liberty to purchase from the other Hongs, or from the outside trade j but generally giving the preference to the Hong to which his ship is con- signed, if his teas are as cheap as others. 925. Do those supercargoes go generally to the outside dealers? — In the first instance they must apply to one of the Hong merchants to secure the vessel ; and it is matter of arrangement or contract with him what quantity of teas they shall take from him. He generally shows them his samples, and it is arranged to the satisfaction of the parties ; but I believe a large proportion is bought from the other Hong merchants, or from the outside merchants. 92G. Then there is no obligation to trade with the Hong merchant beyond the agreement made in the contract for securing the vessel? — None. 927. Do you know whether the price of teas purchased by the super- cargoes varied considerably at different periods? — I have always understood China to be a fluctuating market. 928. Did the supercargoes ever complain that they could not procure teas of the best qualities for the American trade? — Never. 929- Does that answer apply to every description of teas, the black as well as the green? — It does. 930. In point of fact, is not green tea the great consumption of the United States ? — It is. I should probably say, that inasmuch as the East-India Company are the largest purchasers, particularly of black teas, I should think they might have some slight advantages in the purchase of that descrip- tion of teas; but inasmuch as the Americans are large purchasers of green teas, I should think the East-India Company will have no advantage there: but any advantage that may arise to one party or another I look upon as arising solely from their being either larger or more limited customers. 931. What is the size of the American ships in which this trade has been carried on, so far as you have been concerned in it ? — In ships from three hundred to nearly five hundred tons. 932. Have the ships a supercargo to make their purchases and dispose of their freight, or is that duty sometimes left to the captain ? — Sometimes, when he is a very clever man ; but in the ships in which I have been par- ticularly interested there is a resident agent upon the spot in China. 933. Do you know what the freight is from Liverpool to China, and back to the United States ? — The freights have fallen very much of late. They were at one time as high as 19 or £10 a ton for the measurement tonnage of SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 119 of forty cubic feet, but I apprehend they are not more than two-thirds of 25 Feb. 1830. that now, probably not so much : but I beg to be understood as not stating ^ exactly what they are now ; I know they are very considerably less. ''■ ^''^^"^ •' ■'*9- 934. You have stated, that as far as you have had means of information from parties engaged in this trade, there appears a very favourable disposi- tion on the part of the Chinese to cultivate a commercial intercourse with the United States ; have you any particular reason for stating that such a dis- position exists ? — Some years ago there was a serious fire at Canton, when our friends had a good many goods burnt, and the Chinese government made good the loss to the citizens of tfie United States ; I therefore infer tiiat there was a good feeling towards cultivating commerce generally. 935. Can you state to what amount the loss sustained was made good by the government of China ? — I cannot ; I believe it was very considerable ; it applied to all other nations as well as the United States ; the loss was made good to all. 9^0. Has the trade ever been interrupted? — It was partially for a short time, an Italian sailor in an American ship having killed a woman ; but I know very little of the transaction. 9^7. Do you know whether the Chinese government enforce the payment of debts to Europeans on the part of Chinese subjects? — So far as the Hong are concerned, I believe the Hong are responsible for each other ; but I do not know how it is with the private trade, whether there is any obligation on the part of the government to pay debts contracted by the outside dealeis or not. 938. Have you any reason to doubt that the merchants from the United States are treated at Canton with as much favour as any other nation ? — I believe they are quite as much so. 939. Do you know upon what principle it is that the government indem- nifies foreign traders from losses by such a casualty as fire? — I do not ; I was rather surprised at the fact. 940. Can you state the amount of tea annually consumed in the United States? — I cannot with any accuracy ; but I believe it to be about six millions of pounds. 941. Is there any export of tea now from the United States to any parts of Europe ? — There is ; but by no means so extensive as it was. 942. Can you state when the trade of carrying tea from Canton to Canada on the part of the Company commenced ? — I do not know the period. 943. Are you aware that the duties paid upon tea imported into Canada are very much lower than the duties upon tea imported into the United States ? — I am. 944. Do you know the proportion ? — I do not know the proportion, but I am aware they are considerably lower. 945. Are 120 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 25 Feb. 1830. 945. Are you aware that there is a rule on the part of the Hong mer- chants, that if they deHver a chest of tea that shall, upon examination, be 1].Brmvn,Esq. fQ^p^i j-q \^q damaged, they shall then return two for one? — I am aware of the fact. 946. That applies to all traders ? — It does. 947. Do the outside merchants also return two for one in a similar case ?— I cannot state that positively ; I believe they do. 948. You have stated, that latterly the American return trade with Canton has not been profitable ; do you conceive that, supposing that trade was confined within proper limits, there is a probability that it would still be a profitable trade to America ? — I think there is every reason to suppose that it would. 949. Are you aware whether the Americans have sustained losses upon other branches of their trade, from the circumstance of that trade having been carried rather too far in the same period ? — They have. 950. In the supply of cotton, for instance ? — They have on many occa- sions. 951. Do you ascribe the losses in other trades to the same cause, in part, to which you ascribe the losses in this trade of tea, namely, the long credit given upon the duties, and the facility thereby afforded to speculation ? — Probably that would be so; there is a very great spirit of enterprize in the United States, and it is pushed frequently too far. 952. Have you heard that in the port of Canton there is considerable facility afforded to captains of ships in completing their cargoes ? — Very great. 953. As great as in other ports with which you are acquainted ?— I should think more than in most other ports, 954. You have stated that the loss which you say has followed this trade lately is confined to the home cargo; has the outward trade been a good trade ? — I have understood that it has been a fair remunerating trade. 955. Has it been so throughout the period that it has been carried on ?— So far as I know, it has, 956. Do not the American ships also go with teas directly to the Continent from Canton ? — They do. 957. Can you state whether that has also been a losing trade ? — I have had no particular knowledge of that trade, further than knowing that they do go from Canton to the Continent. 958. Must not any trade, in so bulky an article as tea, which is first carried to America, and from America to Europe, be charged with too much ex. pense to make it a profitable trade in the long-run? — It certainly must operate very much against it, where there is an opportunity of carrying tea on a direct voyage. 959. Have ■ o^ SELECT COMMITTEE 01 the HOUSE OF COMMOi^S. V2l %50. Have you any means of sayiiii^ whether the direct trade of the 25 Feb. 1830. Americans from Canton to Europe has been profitable or not ? — I thini<. not lately. ^^- Brou'», Lsg. ()t')0. Is the business of the adventurers performed by supercargoes sent out with each ship, or is it performed by resident merchants tliere? — If the question refers to the direct trade from America to Canton, I think it is generally carried on by supercargoes ; but if it refers to the trade that has been carried on from England to Canton, so far as 1 have been interested, there has been a resident upon the spot to whom the vessels have been consigned. 901. When a supercargo is sent, or a resident is employed, what is the charge of agency for that trade ? — I have understood, and 1 believe it to be pretty nearly what is allowed to supercargoes, three per cent., or two and a half per cent. It is a matter of contract altogether ; but I should say it would average about three per cent. 962. Is the charge about the same, whether it is done by a supercargo sent out with each ship, or by resident merchants on the spot? — I do not know what the charge of a resident merchant generally is ; except that I know, with respect to the gentleman that represents my friends there, there is a guarantee that he shall have a certain sum, that their commission shall produce to him within the year a certain amount: it is a matter of bargain. They sometimes take out two supercargoes, a principal and an assistant supercargo. OG'3. Is it not the fact, that the Boston ships have generally no super- cargoes, but go to resident merchants, but that the New York, Baltimore, and Philadelphia ships are generally sent with floating supercargoes ? — My connections lying principally in New York, Baltimore, and Philadelphia, I speak more of them than I do of Boston. 9G4i. Can you say whether the adventurers from those three places. New York, Baltimore, and Philadelphia, generally go to resident merchants, or have they supercargoes with each ship.^ — During my residence in Baltimore they had almost always supercargoes, latterly they have gone more to resi- dent merchants. 96.5. Do you consider that a resident merchant or a resident factor on the spot, must have greater advantages in dealing in a country over a person who comes there as a stranger to carry on a single isolated transaction ? — I am quite aware that the Chinese are a very suspicious, cautious people, and that to do business to advantage with them it is necessary for tiiem to have some previous transactions with you, that they may have confidence in you; if you once establish confidence, the business is probably conducted on better terms than it would be with a passing stranger. 96G. Has not a resident on the spot, beyond the advantage which he has of being acquainted with persons and with the country, the additional Q advantage 12Q EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 25 Feb. 1830. advantage of being able to select his own time for purchase and sale, „ whereas a man who goes out with a ship is obliged to perform his business '"*' -^*^* at once, without waiting, and then to come back? — No doubt he has. 967. Is not it the case in that trade, as in trades generally, that when supercargoes are sent out, they make the best bargain they can with some merchant at the port, giving him as little commission as they can agree for, and pocketing the remainder ? — No, I think not in China. I think that they make a contract with the Hong merchants, to whom they consign themselves, in the best terms they can ; but I apprehend there is no division of the supercargo's commission with the Hong : it is well under- stood what he will have to pay to the Hong before he leaves the United States, and that is apart from his own commission altogether. 968. You have stated what is the custom of the Chinese in case any damaged tea is found in the cargo they ship ; do you think the American trade is more subject to tricks and deceptions of that description than the English trade ? — I am not able to answer that. 969. Can you state whether there is generally any material difference between the quality of the tea imported into America and the tea impoiled by the East-India Company into this country? — I can only speak from general rumour. The feeling on the part of the Americans is, that the tea imported into the United States is better than that we drink in England ; but tliey do not drink so much black tea in America as they do in England. 970. Has that opinion been stated as a positive opinion ? — I have fre- quently heard the Americans say that they thought their tea better than ours. 971* Have you been in America yourself? — Yes, I resided there many years. 97^. What should you say from your own experience ? — I am not a suffi- cient judge to answer from my own experience : it was many years ago, and I have very little recollection of the kind of tea I used to drink at that time. 973. Do you know the rate of insurance from Canton to America? — It has varied : it has been as high as six ; I believe now about four and a half to five per cent. 971.. Where are those insurances effected? — In the United States. 975. Did you mean to say that the green tea in America is better than the green tea in tliis country, and that the black tea in America is better than the black tea in this country ? — It is a very difficult question to answer satisfactorily. I have merely heard persons who have been in the United States say generally, that the tea was better than our English tea. Par- ticulars were not gone into ; it was not said whether it was black tea or green tea. 976. Do you consider the woollens that you send out from this country of an inferior quality to what the East-India Company ship ? — I have no reason to SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 123 to believe that they are of an inferior quality ; but I am not a judge of the 25 Feb. 1830. article myself. 977- Where are they manufactured? — The woollens are manufactured at ' '^°'^"' '^ Leeds, and the stuff's at Norwich. r 97s. When you buy them from the manufacturers there, do you make that bargain upon the understanding that they are of an inferior quality to what the Company ship, or do you consider yourself as paying a price for a fair quality ? — The agent who has always made those purchases in this country is a partner in the house, and I have always understood from him that they were quite as good as the Company's, and bought upon equally favourable, or more favourable terms. 979. Are the goods ordered to be made by the agent, or are they bought by the agent ready made ? — I believe both ways : they are sometimes bought ready made, and occasionally ordered to be made; but the detail of the transactions by the agent I am not so conversant with. 980. Have you ever understood from the agent who bought those goods that he made a point of obtaining cheap and inferior goods, rather than goods of the best quality ? — I have always understood that he obtained goods of the very best quality, and that he was extremely particular about them ; for the Chinese have a peculiar taste, and he endeavoured as far as possible to meet that taste. 981. You have stated that you have understood that the trade in dry goods to China, independent of the homeward cargo, has been profitable ; have you had occasion to see any accounts of sales from which you have formed that opinion? — Our friend here transacting that business had made such representations to me, and I have every reason to give credit to them, that the outward cargoes were reasonably profitable. 982. Then you have not seen any account sales ? — I cannot say that I have ; I have only seen them in his hands in passing. 983. Do you believe an American supercargo would decline introducing into consumption among the Chinese prohibited goods, or goods bearing high duties, whenever profitable to them ? — I should think some of them would, others would not. 984. Do you think Englishmen and private traders would decline doing that under those circumstances ? — 1 think some of them would, and others would not. 985. You have stated that there is a commission charged upon goods at Canton either by supercargo or by merchants there ; is it upon the invoice amount of the goods shipped, or upon the amount of the sale there ? — When specie is shipped from the United States the commission is charged on the amount of the investment ; when goods are shipped, and the cargo bought, there is a double commission upon the gross amount of sales and upon the gross amount of purchases. Q2 986. Taking 124. EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 25 Feb. 1830, 986. Taking the gross amount of the accounts of sale of the goods sold there, and the amount of goods purchased for sliipment? — Yes. loun, sq. gg^^ Have you known any transaction with a resident agent at Canton, where there has been no agreement to guarantee a certain commission? — No. 988. Then you do not know what they charge where there is no agree- ment? — No; I have never seen any account of sales or purchases, and 1 da not know what the charge is. 989- What rate of commission do you, or any other agent, receive on goods shipped for China on behalf of the Americans ? — Upon the transac- tions that have come through my own hands I have the usual commission for shipping the goods, which is half-a-crown per package, and a commission, as banker, of one per cent, for paying for those goods. The partner of the house bought the goods that were shipped through us, and of course I had nothing to do with that, but to receive and pay for them. An agent in Manchester would buy them for one per cent. I apprehend that two and a half per cent, would fully cover all commission charges. 990. You have given an account of goods shipped since 1821 ; was there any exportation of British manufactures from Liverpool previous to that year in American bottom ? — I think not to any extent ; it must have been very limited if there was. 991- Have you known any exportation of British manufactures in any other neutral bottom except American ? — No, I have not. 992. Have you ever known any metals shipped from Liverpool for China? — Yes, there has been a little tin shipped, and some other things, not the produce of England, quicksilver and ginseng. 993. With reference to the transit trade from China by America to Europe, are you aware whether many of the ships which go to America merely land part of their cargo, and carry the rest on to Europe, witiiout moving it ? — I believe it sometimes happens, but 1 should think not gene- rally. 991. What is the nature of the goods generally exported from America to Canton ? — Scarcely any thing but .specie from the United States ; I have known a little cotton go when it was very cheap. 995. Have you ever known any eartlienware sent from Liverpool to the East, to Sincapore or China? — There has been a little sent out for the use of the Factory ; but nothing that I know of in the way of merchandize. 99n. Do you know wliether the woollens imported to this country by Americans are ever smuggled into Canton ? — 1 believe not, as far as I know. 997- Has any glass been exported ? — A little in the same way for the use of the Factory, but not for trade. 998. Are SP:LECT committee of the house of common?. 125 99s. Are you aware whetlier there has been any considerable cliangc in 25 Feb. 1830. the quality and sorts ot" articles sent out for the Chini:se nuirket iioni this „ _ ,, country ? — I think not much ; they have been very stationary. Jirotai, v.vr/. 999- In your experience of the American trade, is it not frequently the practice for merchants to send out their sliips to some ports in the East, with orders, in the event of their being disappointed in one adventure, ultimately to go to China? — I should think it did not often happen : it may have hap- pened ; I have no doubt it has happened. 1000. Do not you consider it a considerable advantage to free-traders to have that power of choice of markets in the event of their being disappointed in one ? — Certainly. 1001. Do not you consider that the merchants of any nation having that free option, have a great advantage over others who are excluded from cer- tain ports? — Certainly. 1002. Can you state whether, in the course of your communication with any Americans who have dealt at Canton, they have expressed any opinion that their trade there is subject either to any particular advantage or disad- vantage, from the circumstance of there being a great English Factory there dealing with the Hong merchants? — I never understood from them that they had any advantage or disadvantage ; I always understood that they were on a perfect footing of reciprocity with all other nations that traded there. 1003. But you did not consider those traders trading there as deriving any particular protection or advantage from the existence of the Company's Fac- tory r — None whatever. 1004. Have the supercai-goes of the American ships any communication with the Company's Factory ? — With the Hong merchants they have : the Hong are security for their good conduct and for the proper management of their affairs. 1005. Do you know how the losses were made good to the Americans at the period of the fire at Canton? — I do not j I merely know the fact that they were made good. lOOG. Then you are not aware tliat such losses were made good by a tax upon foreign trade - — I was not aware of that ; it may have been so. 1007- Do you know whether there have been any experiments made lately in sending out new articles of manufacture which were supposed likely to suit the taste of the Chinese ? — Yes ; I have understood that there have been lately some attempts made to introduce cotton-yarns to that country with some prospect of success. 1008. Are they the only articles ? — They are the only articles I have had my attention particularly called to. 1009. Can you state what was the result of this ? — I do not know. 1010. You 1(26 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : a5 Feb. 1830. 1010. You stated that the woollens sent out by individuals were as good or better than those sent out by the Company ; have you the means of /r. Brou-n, Esj- j^nowing the quality of the goods sent out by the Company? — The gentle- man who bought them in this country, I believe, has had an opportunity of seeing those purchased, and in preparation for the Company, and he stated to me that he conceived them as good, or in some cases better; but 1 only know that from the information of the gentleman who bought them. 1011. Do linens ever form any part in the investment at Canton? — Yes; in the first instance there were some shipments of linens, but not latterly. 1012. Did you find that it did not answer? — I believe not so well. 1013. Were they coarse or fine linens ? — That I cannot state. 1014. Do you conceive, in reference to your own personal situation, that the opening of the China trade with this coiuitry, by doing away the Com- pany's monopoly, would be to your interest or otherwise ? — 1 think it would be against my interest. 1015. How would it affect your interest ? — My interest would be affected* inasmuch as those gentlemen I represent in this country might not find it worth their while to come in competition with the English free trade. 1016. Your apprehension would be, that the British free trade would throw the Americans out of the trade between China and this country? — I have no doubt it would in the first instance ; for to every market we go we send such quantities of goods. 1017- It is in that way your interest would suffer ? — Yes. 1018. To what extent have you known damages or deficiencies in the cargoes from Canton to have been made good to American agents ? — Not very extensively : probably half a dozen instances I have heard of; probably not so many. 1019. Do you know of any one instance ? — Yes, Mr. Milne has told me he has had to send back, and got two for one. 1020. Do you recollect in what ship ? — No. 1021. Do you know to what extent ? — Not to a great extent ; a chest or two ; but I have heard of it in more cases than one. Mr. RICHARD MILNE called in, and examined. Ml. R. Milne. 1022. Did you reside in Philadelphia for any number of years, and have you carried on trade with China ? — I have resided there a considerable j)eriod ; my leading business vending English goods ; but I have very often made adventures to India and China in vessels on freight. 1023. For how many years were you engaged in the trade with India and China? — I commenced in the year 1799, and continued, I think, till 1811", and occasionally since ; the last time 1820, 1024. Have SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. I27 10'2'i. Have you consigned more than one ship direct to China in the 25 Feb 1830 course of those periods ? — At the period alluded to, tlie vessels went chiefly on freight. I was a shipper, and have shipped in different vessels in the same Mr. R. Milne. year at moderate amounts, being my own underwriter, running the risk myself, 1025. What were the articles you shipped to China in particular ? — Almost always Spanish dollars. 1026. From Philadelphia ?— Yes. 1027. What were the returns? — Teas, nankeens, and silks, were the lead- ing articles from China ; occasionally other articles to fill up tlie tonnage. 1028. How long is it since you left the United States ? — In the year 1828. I am a native of Manchester. 1029. Are you acquainted with the trade between the United States and China since you ceased to take a part in it yourself, namely, in 1820 ? — After I left off making adventures on my own account, I loaned money to others on what is termed respondentia, that gave me the means of general information. 1030. During the time you were engaged in this trade with China, or since that period, are you aware of any obstacles having been thrown in the way of trade by the Chinese authorities ? — I never heard of any obstacles. 1031. When you carried on the trade to China, had you supercargoes in the ships, or a resident merchant to transact the business at Canton ? — From Philadelphia, at the period alluded to, supercargoes almost always accompa- nied the ships. 1032. Had they a regular salary or a commission ? — They had a com- mission. 1033. What rate of commission? — Three per cent, upon the amount of purchases at Canton. 1034. Did that include the security to the Hong ? — The security to the Hong, I believe, was estimated on the rate of freight which we paid ; taking that consideration as one of the charges attaching to the ship, they asked a corresponding freight. 1035. You have stated, that when you carried on this trade the ships were always accompanied by a supercargo : — I think without exception. 1036. This supercargo generally was an entire stranger to Canton, and to all persons there probably ? — Sometimes those supercargoes were men of busi- ness and very intelligent, at other times young persons brought forward through interest for the sake of the commissions. 1 have often shipped with those less experienced persons, the vessel being what was termed a good risk. 1037. When the persons were so inexperienced, did you ever get into any difficulty with the Chinese authorities or the Hong mercants at Canton "- — I never heard of any. . . 1038. No 128 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 25 Feb. 1830. 1038. No difficulties occurred in consequence ? — No difficulties whatever occurred to the vessels in which I was interested. Mr. R. Milne. ^ ,,,, . . . , , , 10o9. u hen it was an niexpenenced supercargo, the advantage of the merchant was not perhaps so much consulted as when it was a man of more experience and judgment ? — We, of course, preferred gentlemen of experi- ence ; but if it was a very good vessel, and no other presented itself, we availed ourselves of it. 1040. Did tliose adventures in which you were engaged receive any assist- ance or meet with any obstacles from the establishment of the British East- India Company P^^My opinion is, that they had little communication with each other. 1 have often heard them say so. 1041. You are not aware that they derived any advantage or benefit from the Company's servants? — I do not apprehend that they derived any advan- tage whatever from the Company's servants; but I have often heard them speak in terms of the highest respect of the Company's servants. 1042. You have no reason to believe they were ever thwarted or impeded in any of their engagements by the Company's servants ? — I do not believe they were. 1043. As you have been a considerable importer of teas into the United States, will you state to the Committee what are the general description of teas used in the United States? — Till of late years, green teas, in the part of the country where I resided, were almost the only teas brought there. Of late, black tea has increased, being recommended by tlie faculty. 1044. Can you state what the proportion of green and black is at present? — I think the quantity of black tea is small ; it is increasing. 1045. What is the consumption of tea in the United States altogether? — I forget. There is an annual report from the Treasury ; but there must be from the United States more than twenty ships annually, perhaps thirty : the number varies according to the demand and the state of the trade. '& 104G. Have there been great profits in that trade, or has it been liable to heavy losses ? — At the period alluded to my business was vending English goods. Not having a great deal in the world, I was desirous of increasing it, and I shipped to China as an auxiliary. Not owning the vessel, of course I laboured under some disadvantages from 1800 to 1811. I never experienced any loss in those years. I think, speaking within bounds, that the profits might be from fifteen to twenty per cent, per annum ; perhaps occasionally more, but I think I may safely say from fifteen to twenty. 1 017. Was a part of the tea imported into the United States re-exported ? —Yes. 104S. To what ports? — Hamburg, Bremen, the Continent; some little to France, but principally to Hamburg and Bremen. 1049. Did SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 129 1049. Did any part of it find its way into tlie British provinces in North 25 Feb. 1830. America ? — I have lieard much of tliat. I believe the trade existed formerly, but not now ; to what extent I cannot say. ^^^- ^- ^^^f>i^- 1050. Can you state what was the proportion of teas exported to other countries, includinfr what might find its way to Canada, to the whole quantity imported into the United States ? — That would depend entirely on the home demand ; the quantity exported comparatively small. When fresh teas arrived and the old ones lay on hand they were neglected, consequently persons were induced to export them to save the drawback or the duty paid on import. 1051. Are the Committee to understand from that answer that the new teas are greatly preferred to those that have been a certain time on hand ? Decidedly so : it is difficult to sell the old teas after the new ones come, save when the quality of the old ones has originally been very superior. 1052. What do you call old teas in the United States ; tea which has been a twelvemonth ? — Yes, The Government only allow drawbacks within one year from the date of import ; the goods having been in the country more than one year from the date of import, forfeit the benefit of drawback. 1053. Are they then exported in preference to the new teas, both as inferior in quality and as coming nearer to the period at which the duty would be to be paid? — Having on hand and in the warehouse boih old and new teas I certainly should export the old ones, keeping the new ones a longer period, for the benefit of home sale. 1054. Has the quantity imported of late years been so much greater than the consumption as to make this a bad trade ? — It certainly has, I believe, been overdone. 1055. Have there been great losses sustained in consequence by the parties who have been engaged in this trade ? — I believe there have been very large losses. 1056. To what do you attribute this over-trading? — In part to the love of gain of persons who have got embarked in the thing, conceiving that if they got a larger quantity of goods probably they might recover themselves. The consumption of the country, I should think, has rather increased the facility given by Government in the duties, which is, one year from the arrival of the vessel the goods are entered, put in bond, anc' from the date they are taken out there is a credit given of one year, on the bond of two merchants. 1057. You state that the parties who have sustained losses might carry on this trade to excess, from the facility in the mode of giving credit on the duty due from those parties, they sustaining their affairs by carrying it on with a capital belonging, in fact, to the Government? — That has been the case ; I believe the Government is sensible of its having suffered. 1058. Do you attribute the over-trading, in part, to the deranged situation of some of the traders having a facility of meeting their engagements by the twelve months' credit they have obtained on the duties ? — I think 1 may safely say that would be my conclusion. 1059. Can you state to the Committee what has been the average rate of R duty 130 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS ; 25 Feb. 1830. .f^fr. 2i. Milne. duty on the different teas tliat have been imported into America, at present, upon the sale value? — It is very high. 1060. Is it equal to the same value, is it 100 per cent. ? — I should think, perhaps, 75 to 100 percent, upon the cost price in China. I have a number of prices current which show the precise duty on the tea. 1061. You consider the duty on all sorts, taking it as an average, to be about 75 to 100 per cent, on the cost prices in China? — I think it is that; in some instances it will be more than that ? — I can explain the duties paid on each kind of tea: bohea tea pays 12 cents per pound duty; congou, 25; souchong, 25 ; hyson-skin, 28 ; young hyson, 40 ; hyson, 40 ; gunpowder, 50 ; imperial, 50 cents per pound. 1062. Have you got the prices at which those several sorts of tea sell? — I have made out a memorandum of the prices which teas have sold for at New York from the year 1820 to 18i'9, less the duty. [The same teas delivered hi, and read as follo'ws : — "] PRICES of TEA at New York, in each year from 1820 to 1829, reduced to sterling, at the exchange of 8 per cent, premium. 1820. 1821. 1822. 1823. 1824. 1825. 1826. 1827. 1828. 1829. Imperial,, .per lb. 3/ii ./7 2/11 3/1 J 3/1* 3/4 2/11 2/8J 2/G 2/5| a' a' a' a' a' a' a' a' a' a' 3/4 3/4 3/4 3/4 3/6i 4/2 3/6i 3/14 3m 3/9 Gunpowder 3/4 2/3,i 3/4 3/1^ 3/1 i 3/4J 2/11 2/81 2/6 2/5i a' a' a' a' a' . a' a' a' a' a' 3/6^ 3l7i 3/9 3,'9 3/6i 4/2 3/6I 3/1 ij 3/6i 3/9 Hyson — 2/1 2/oi 23^«'. 2/1 2/5* 2/8 2/1 2/31 2/1 i/ioi a' a' a' a' a' a' a' a' a" a' 2/9 2/8^ 2/11 2/9 3/1 3/4 2/11 3/6^ 3/6| 3/if Young Hyson . — Hhd. igd. 2od. 2/3i 2/.1 2/;i 1/8 i7J^. 15«?. i7id. a' a' a' a' a' a' a' a' a' a' 2/3.^ 23c? 23U 2/9 3/ .yu 2/10 3/H 3/6i 3/0 Hyson-skin ... — 13.W. I2hd. i-^d. iGd. 23.^- i8^d. lid. lid. 8rf. Sid. a' a' a' a' a' a' a' a' a' a' i6^. i6d. i6d. 2id. 2/4| 2/7 2/2 2/2 23U ' ^Zhd. Souchong .... — i3id. I2hd. I3i<^. Hid. 12jc/. 12|rf. lod. 13'/- lid. liU. a' a'' a' a' a' a' a a* a' a' Hid. i3jrf. i5i-none Bohea — lid. lid. lOjrf. 6\d. lod. 8lrf. nd. 8d. Bd. 9d. a' a' a' a' a' a' a' a' a' a' u^d. Hid. lid. Sd. lOjcf. 9rf. Hd. 9<^- 9d. 10(/. Mr. It. Milne. SELECT COiMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 1.31 106>. When you say less tlie duty, you mean the duty off, or what is com- 25 Feb. H3'). monly called short price ? — Yes. 10()4. From what have you compiled tliat? — From the prices-current published at New- York. I believe also they were extreme prices : in going into the New York market 1 could buy teas cheaper than those for money. I have no hesitation in saying that I believe it is tolerably correct ; but wherever there were fractions, I added them to the price, so as to enable me to speak with confidence when I came here. 1065. Do those prices-current from which you have compiled this table state the highest prices? — I believe they do fully so, with a view to support- ing the market. 10G6. Are those the cash prices, or is there a discount? — They are the prices at a credit of from four to six months. 1067. Mow much lower would they be for cash ? — I think I may say four or five per cent, lower. 106s. Does the account you have delivered in show the specific duty ? — It does not : these papers do, and I ha\e just stated the duty to the Committee. IOO9. You are understood to state as the result of your investigation, that, as near as may be, you think the average specific duty on the China cost is 75 to 100 ? — Y'es ; there are instances in the case of hyson-skin tea in which it is more ; it is full that in the instance of hyson-skin ; it is a good deal above 100. 1070. Is it 75 per cent, in the cost price at Canton, or on the sale price at New York ? — It exceeds 75 per cent, in the cost price in China. 1071. What do you suppose it may be on the sale price at New York ? — If hyson-skin tea sells for Go cents and the duty is 28, that is about 4-5, I think, without calculating it. It is a specific duty per pound : the papers are here, and the calculation is simple ; 1 prefer stating the simple duty per pound. 1072. Is the present rate of duties the same as it was in the year 1820, or has the tarifi' increased those duties ? — I think, according to my recollection, that duty was not increased by the last tariff, but I am not certain. 1073. The mode of transacting this business in America is something of this sort, that the importer obtains from the government a credit of twelve months for the duty when he takes his tea out of bond and sells it ? — Exactly so. 1074. He sells it, you say, on a credit of six months generally ? — Yes. 1075. That credit of six months is a bill of exchange probably ? — A pro- missory note. 1076. That is immediately convertible into cash on a discount by the banks in America? — The banks discount paper at four months; seldom so long as six, unless they have an over-abundance of money. 1077. The importing merchant selling his teas with the duty, at what is called the long price, has a capital equal to the duty to carry on a future operation, and to speculate again on afresh import? — The prevailing opinion R 2 in 132 EVIDENCE ON EAST.INDIA AFFAIRS: 25 Feb. 1830. in America is, that this duty puts him in full possession to purchase another full cargo. AVhen I speak of the duty being 75 to 100 per cent, on the cost Mr. R. Milne, j^ China, I conceive I am speaking within bounds. It is generally conceived that the long credit given by the government enables the importer to send his vessel again direct to China, and import another cargo. 107s. Do you attribute any part of the over-trading to the facilities of those credits, and to the protection it gave to a person in bad circumstances, as not compelling him to meet his engagements? — It is the prevailing opinion that the advantages derived from the credit contributed generally to the over- trading. 1079. Does the same system prevail in any other branch of American trade; the import of manufactured goods from this country for instance? — We have eighteen and twelve months on European manufactures ; English are the bulk. 1080. The duty being very high on English manufactures, does it not create a credit, advanced by the government, which gives great facilities to over-trading ? — That is the prevailing opinion, and remonstrances have been repeatedly made to government to lessen the credit, with a view of putting it out of the power of enterprizing or speculative persons to deal on the scale which they do. 1081. Does it not give great facilities to parties whose circumstances are deranged, to carry on trade for a long time after they ought to settle with their creditors ; and is not the result, that the government secure the whole of their assets when they are driven to the necessity of closing their concerns ? — Government have suffered of late. 1082. But their individual creditors suffer to a greater degree, do they not ? — The individual creditors have suffered to a great extent, of late years. The greater part of the English goods vended in America have been done by commission houses, who made advances to manufacturers in this country, by coming under acceptance for 60 or 70 per cent. ; it applies to other things. 1083. Have there been losses of a like nature with those in the China trade sustained in any other branches of the trade of America from tiiis facility of credit? — I think not to the same extent ; nothing so great. lOSl'. Is there any circumstance in the trade in tea which has made the loss heavier on that branch than on other articles of trade ? — The facility of the credit in the duty. 1085. Is the credit greater on tea than on other articles ? — The credits on China goods are six, twelve, and eighteen months ; the average is longer on China goods than on European. 1086. Are there any other causes that have interfered with the tea trade of tiie United States? — I do not know of any materially. 1087. Have not duties been laid in Europe on the import of teas through America? — I believe there has been something of that kind of late; but I cannot speak to it. 1088. The SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 133 1088. The trade to Canada, you are aware, is no longer carried on? — I 25 l-eb. 1830. believe not. 1089. Has the result been a diminished import into the United States' — ^^- ^^' ^*^"'^' I believe since 1827-8 the import has fallen off. 1090. Do you consider the trade now in a thriving or a depressed state ? — In a depressed state. 1091. Is it as much so as it was in 1827-8 ? — I understand it is depressed. 1092. As you have imported a considerable quantity of tea, and have beer a dealer for many years, what is your opinion of the relative qualities of tea imported into the United States and that imported into this country ? — I believe the tea imported into the United States to be good. 1093. Is it as good as the tea consumed in this country? — I should think it is equal in quality ; the green teas particularly, 1094. Do you speak from your own knowledge ? — I speak from my own knowledge, and having heard English ladies say it was quite as good tea as any that they had ever drank in England. 1095. You think, from your experience, that tea is deteriorated by keep- ing? — I think it is. 1096. Have the prices at Canton been uniform and steady, or have they varied ? — They fluctuate. 1097- Do they fluctuate almost every year? — That is governed by the demand. 1098. You never found any difficulty in procuring whatever quantity you required? — Sometimes in the article of young hyson, it was difficult to pro- cure sufficient of the best quality j of the other teas generally abundant, or often abundant : the young hyson of fine quality was often scarce. 1099. In the market at Canton, is there any difference in the price of tea of the like description, in consideration of its being older or fresher ? — Old teas are always sold cheaper in China. 1100. Does the same difference in price prevail in the United States? — They are always more difficult of sale. If the market was abundantly sup- plied, it would be difficult to sell old teas, unless the quality of them was very fine. 1101. With whom were the transactions carried on at Canton for the pur- chase of the teas generally? — A part was always bought of the security- merchant; the residue from other gentlemen in the Hong, and a part from the outside merchants or shopmen, as they are called. 1102. In what proportions? — I cannot speak to that; I should think that would vary. 1103. Is the quality of tea purchased from the outside merchant equal to that procured from the Hong? — I should think it is, some of them being highly respectable ; in short, quite favourites, one or two of them. 1104. So 134 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: : 95 Feb. 1S30. 1 lOi. So that you think teas of equally good quality are to be procured from tlie outside merchants with those obtained from the Hong merchants Mr. R. Mihic. or the security merchants? — I think they are, but probably not in the same quantities. IIOJ. You have stated the commission to a supercargo to be three per cent.? — I think it was uniformly so. IIOG. Have you ever, instead of employing a supercargo, employed any resident agent at Canton.'' — I have not myself, but some of the merchants of Philadelphia did. 1107. What was the commission they paid to the resident agent? — It would not vary much from three per cent. ; if it varied it would be a mere fraction, it would not be more. IIOS. You would prefer employing a resident agent to a supercargo perhaps? — Tliere are often two supercargoes on board the vessel, and it is a protection to the cargo. 1109. Do you allow any coiumission on the outward investment? — Not any. The outvvard investment is dollars ; the commission is solely on the purchase at Canton, or on the amount of dollars paid there. 1110. A supercargo going to Canton has no commission on the investment at Philadelphia?— He has no commission save on the amount invested for the return voyage. 1111. Is no commission given to the native or Hong merchants? — None that I know of. 1112. When you talk of old teas, what is the age of a tea you consider as old ? — I should suppose the teas of the previous year are considered old ; but they might have been on hand longer. 1113. Can you state from recollection the comparison between teas of the like description of the preceding year or the current years? — In two or three instances, I ordered old skin teas if they were to be had cheap ; and the old teas cost I7 or 18 tales, when the new teas would be worth 22 to 24. 1114. Do you mean to say that there is a difference of at least 30 percent, in the value of teas of the like description, from the circumstance of the one being a year older than another? — I do not think that the diference in value will be generally so great, but I mean to speak from what I have experienced in solitary instances. 111.5. Does that difference apply equally to the finer teas? — I think not in so great a degree as to the common teas. 11 If). Do you know what is the duty now paid on tea in the British pro- vinces of America? — I have understood it to be very small. I do not know whether it is more than two to four-pence per pound. 1117. Have you the sale prices of tea at Quebec or Haliflix ? — I have not any. 1118. Has SELECT COiMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 13.5 1118. Has the consumption of young liyson greatly increased in tlie 25 Feb. 1H30. United States compared to other teas? — It is the favourite tea, and tliere is " always a great demand for it ; so much has been brought of it of inferior ^'' ■' • "'* qualiJty that the price has been reduced ; the Chinese finding the demand for it, increased the quantity. 1119. Has it happened in the importations that you have had to open any chests of bad quality? — I recollect receiving a chest of tea filled with sand or something of that kind ; I sent it back, and if my recollection be correct, I received two for it. I know it is the custom in China to return two for one in case of fraud or deception. 1120. Do you conceive the outside traders, the parties of whom you pur- chased tea, as men of fair character and honourable in their dealings ? — I believe the Hong and many of the outside to be fair dealers, and quite men of business. 1121. As much as are generally met with in the trade of other countries ? — Their character is sometimes lightly spoken of, but I have heard American gentlemen say that it is unjustly so, that they find them fair. 1122. Do they ever give any credit in China ? — I think in the year 1819- 20 I experienced misfortunes in England, and I received a credit of a few thousand pounds from Mr. Howqua; he knew nothing of me butfrom inquiries. 1123. Do you considerthe Chinese merchants, and the authorities in China generally, as disposed to give every facility and encouragement to fair trade with the United States ? — I think so ; it is generally understood, what is called a rich ship in America is very acceptable in Canton. 1124. Do you know any other instance of credit having been given? — I believe the Chinese have suffered greatly from giving credits. 112.5. Giving credit to Americans? — I will not confine myself to Ameri- cans ; there certainly have been instances of their sufiering. 1126. What is the difference between purchasing on credit and purchasing for ready money in the price of tea? — In the instance to which I allude, and I do not mean to speak beyond that, I paid Mr. Howqua one per cent. per month until the money was returned ; I accomplished that in ten months. It was impossible to calculate the interest, not knowing when the vessel would arrive, and I think I still owe him £50 ; but he sent me the bond, giving it up, saying I had been prompt, and he did not wish for any more. 1127. As far as your experience goes, have you every reason to think that, in transacting business generally at Canton, there is the same disposition and facility to encourage fair dealings as in other countries? — I have no reason whatever to doubt that. 1128. Have you ever, in any of your dealings with England or any other country, found the merchants give up £50 which you consider them entitled to? — I never owed interest-money to any one : this was accidental. ^ ^ 1129. In Mr. R. Milne. 136 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 25 Feb. 1830. 1129. In fact, you do not consider the Chinese as disposed to thwart or throw obstacles in the way of commerce carried on in a fair manner with foreign merchants? — I should conclude them rather friendly to commercial intercourse. Vessels going there with Spanish dollars, I think, have "reat advantages, and are very well received. 1 130. Have you any experience of vessels going there with assorted cargoes of manufactured goods ? — I never shipped goods myself, only I observed what my neighbours were doing. 1131. "Were you connected with the China trade at the time of the great fire at Canton ? — No. 1132. Do you know whether the losses sustained by the merchants of the United Slates were made good by the government ? — Only by report. 1133. Have you any reason to doubt that the trade of the United States with Canton, when the effects of this over-trading are done away, will be a remunerating trade like others? — I should think it would, if conducted on correct principle.*. 1134. What has been generally the freight per ton from Philadelphia to Canton and back ? — In the periods in which I was first interested, vessels were in request rather. We pay ten per cent, on the amount shipped ; paid the money in China, and were entitled to two tons and one-eightii measure- ment for every 1,000 dollars shipped. 1135. Do you know the present rate? — I believe it is lower, but I cannot speak to that. 1136. Is there any protection by any public authority on the part of the United States to the trade of their citizens at Canton ? — There has been a consul there. 1137- Is there one now ? — I am not certain ; the gentleman who resided there has returned to America, but whether there has been a successor ap- pointed I am not certain. 1138. How was the consul paid ? — I do not think he received anything, but I am not certain. I heard it said that he acted gratuitously, but I can- not speak to that. 1139. Since the period you first embarked in this trade, the quantity of tea required for America has probably increased? — Very greatly. 1140. Supposing it to increase in the same pro|)ortion in the next thirty years as it has done in the last, do you think there would be any difficulty in supplying the increased demand? — I cannot well answer that question. I have always understood the Chinese could supply any quantity of tea; but I am not able to answer the question. 1141. Was there any difficulty experienced from the increased demand? — It enhanced the price a little, but not materially, on that account, I think. 1142. Has SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 137 1142. Has there been any difficulty in procuring the black teas in China, 25 Fell. 1830. now that the demand for that article has increased? — The importation of black teas i'rom China into the United States has been very limited till lately. Mr. 11. Milne. I have never heard of any difficulty, but I cannot speak to it ; I never remember any. 1143. You have stated that the quantity now imported, and the demand for it, are increasing? — Yes. 1144. But you never heard of any complaint of difficulty in procuring it? —No. 1145. With respect to green tea, do you contemplate any difficulty, sup- posing the quantity of that required to be increased ? — I cannot speak to that, but I never heard any apprehensions on that head expressed by any one. 1146. Do you know whether the Americans, in their supply of black tea, are limited to qualities which do not suit the British market, and are not taken by the East-India Company? — The black tea importeti into America is chiefly souchong, or what is called souchong; very good tea; I make use of it myself; I never heard any difficulty expressed. 1147. Do you find it of as good a quality as that you find in England? — It was very good tea. It would be wrong in me to speak on that head, it being rather a new thing, or new to me ; the fine black teas in England are of excellent quality. 1148. Are the port charges required by the government of China very con- siderable on American vessels? — The ships going from the United States generally will average about 350 to 400 tons ; the port charges are supposed to be 7,000 dollars ; they used to be reckoned at 8,000. 1149. Supposing the ship to be double that size, will the port charges be the same or greater ? — I understand the same, but I cannot speak to that. 1150. You are not acquainted with the trade at Sincapore, or any other port? — No, I am not. 1151. The first thing a ship does on arriving at Canton, is to make an ar- rangement with the security merchant ? — The supercargoes land, I under- stand, like men of business, and go first to one Hong and then to another, and inquire the prices of goods, and secure the ship with a person to whom it may appear to them of most advantage. 1152. With the member of the Hong who will do it on terms the most favourable to the ship ? — Yes. 1153. The parties then go from one Hong merchant to another, till they have ascertained who will do it on the most favourable terms? — So I under- stand. 1154. They are at liberty to employ whichever they please? — I have un- derstood they were on shore several days before they fixed. S 1155. Making 138 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 25 l-'eb. 1830. 1155. Making their bargain ? — Yes, so I understand. w ~n~lj I 1156. And the government does not interfere to prevent that? — I believe not at all ; I have always understood the business to be simple and easy. 1157. Does it amount to any thing more than an agreement with the Hong merchant to take a certain quantity of goods from him for his being the security ? — I believe they uniformly purchase a part at the price agreed on. 1158. Not higher than the market price? — No. 1159. When you state that it is a simple operation, he agrees with the Hong merchant, who will supply him with a certain quantity of goods on rea- sonable terms ? — Yes ; but if I go with a 1 ich ship, I can make good terms. I pay money, of course, which gives me advantages. 1160. 1 hey are glad to supply you at the market price ? — Yes, very glad. 1161. Is not the difficulty greater when you carry out goods than when you carry out specie? — I never shipped goods ; I should conclude it was cer- tainly greater. 1162. You have stated that you have carried on this trade from the year 1799 to 1811 ? — Yes; and occasionally the last time in 1820. 1163. Is there any circumstance in the trade, according to your opinion, which induced you to leave it off? — I did not find it profitable. Il64<. You have stated that new tea was greatly superior in price to old tea ; do you mean new tea bought in China, or tea which has been long kept in the United States of America ? — I intended the remark to apply in both ways. 1165. What period do you consider long in tea, after its arrival, being kept in the United States before it was sold ? — At New Y^ork, in the case of some of the persons who have been unfortunate, the old teas were sold at ruinous prices. IIG6. How long had they been kept on hand ? — They had forfeited the drawbacks, of course : they had been more than one year in the country ; probably two ; I cannot speak to the time. They were sold very low in the case of Mr. Smith. 1167. Without any other circumstance in the market, the quality of the teas was held to be of less value in consequence of the time they had been on hand ? — Yes. IIG8. You have stated that the trade became less profitable ; can you state what the profit was by your last investment from China ? — I did not make much, or rather I did not make any thing. I believe it has occasionally been better since. 1169. Did you ever hear of any disputes arising between the American subjects and the Chinese government? — I have mentioned that in tiiose cases wherein I was interested notliing unpleasant ever occurred. I only know from SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 139 from the public prints relative to the sailor, a case which has been mentioned ; 25 Feb. 1830. the vessels in which I was interested never experienced any difficulty. 1170. You have had no information from other persons as to those dis- . r me. putes ? — No, I have not. 1171. You have stated the proportion of price in China between the fresh teas and the old teas ; have the goodness to state what, upon the average, in the towns of America, is the difference between teas of a year old and the fresh teas; is it five, ten, fifteen per cent., or what proportion? — Taking care what I say, I should say it exceeded five per cent. ; but I do not mean to pledge myself. It is extremely difficult to sell them, unless the old teas have been originally of a very good quality. 1172. Is it not an universal opinion that the quality originally of some of the fresh teas is better than of the stale tea ? — There is uniformly a decided preference ; it is extremely difficult to sell the old when the new arrives. / 1173. Are you aware that the East-India Company in this country are obliged by law to keep their teas a year before they sell them ? — 'I have heard that the teas were kept a long time ; I was not sensible of it; 1 have heard the subject mentioned ; I have no knowledge of the law. 1174. Supposing that to be the case, and that the East-India Company, either by compulsion of the law, or other circumstances, were in the habit of keeping their teas always a year before they sold them, do not you think that any other trader offering in the market fresh teas, would find a great prefer- ence over the Company ? — Decidedly so. 1175. That the taste of this country, like that of America, would pronounce itself in favour of the fresh tea over the stale ? — Decidedly so. 1176. You have stated the duties in America to be levied on the different teas, mentioning the teas by name, so much on souchong, so much on twan- kay, and so on ? — Yes. 1177- Is it not common for one quality to be packed up in China with a different name ; hyson for hyson-skin, or young hyson, and so on, for the pur- pose of affecting the rate of duty to be collected in America ? — That would be considered a great fraud, and, of course, persons of respectability never do such things ; I have no knowledge of it myself; I have heardof a person in New York practising some deceptions, but of course he lost credit, and the thing was discontinued, I imagine ; I have no knowledge of such frauds, and cannot speak to them ; I should consider the instances very few. 1178. Do you suppose that if, for instance, young hyson was packed for hyson-skin, a custom-house officer could distinguish the qualities on their arrival ? — I think he could. 1179. And that any fraud attempted of that description would be detect- ed ? — If such frauds exist the instances are very few. 1180. You have stated up to what time your trade was profitable and when it ceased to be so, and when you were induced to retire from it ; from the S 2 period 140 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 25 Feb. 1830. period that the China trade ceased to be profitable, has not almost all foreign trade of every description been losing? — All foreign commerce from the Mr. R. Mihie. United States has, generally speaking, been very unprofitable. 1181. Do you think that this China trade to which you allude has merely fallen into the same position with almost all the shipping trade of the country? — When I left the China trade I turned my attention to cotton, which my friends and connexions in Lancashire were quite at home in, but I did not better myself much. 1182. The commerce generally has been a losing occupation for many years past ? — I believe a good deal so. 1183. Were you ever concerned in a whole cargo to China? — Merely as shipper on freight. 1184. To what extent ? — As my capital increased my business increased, commencing moderately. 1185. That is the practice in the American trade? — Yes. 118(3. When you speak of the foreign trade of the United States being a losing one, do you mean to apply that remark to the import of raw materials into this country, or the whole course of trade, including the import and export trade? — I believe that a person who imported English dry goods judiciously, what I would term a practical man, even yet, under all the diffi- culties, makes a little money ; at least if he did not grow very rich, he would get a Uving, I tiiink, with economy. 1187. The profit made is chiefly on the export of manufactures from this country to America ? — The commerce of the United States is very extensive ; and various persons who export colonial and domestic produce often lose money. Persons who import English goods on a moderate scale, and have judicious agents in this country, I believe, are rather benefited, but not materially, of late. 1188. The benefit of the trade, upon the whole, consists more in the profit on the manufactured article than in the exportation of the raw material ? — Yes, I think so. Importers of French goods do well sometimes ; but to these points I cannot speak explicitly. 1189 Have you ever imported any China silk goods? — I have done so. 1190. Have you ever imported any raw silk? — Never. 1191. Has the profit on China silk goods been equal to that on tea? — I think, on the whole, better. 1 192. Have you ever imported any nankeens ? — Yes. 1193. What proportion of profits do nankeens bear to other articles im- ported ? — The nankeens were often a bare article ; sometimes they lay on hand. 1191. Should Air. R. Milne. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 141 1 ig*. Should you say that the demand in America for tea is increasing ? — ^5 Feb. 1830. The population increases greatly, and the demand for tea increases with it. The usual breakfast is coffee ; tliey drink tea in the afternoon. 1195. Do the labouring classes in the United States drink tea as they do in this country? — I believe they do. 1196. Was there any export of tea from the United States to any of the southern ports of America? — A little, I think, but limited. I cannot speak to that ; 1 have heard of it. 1197. Do you know that any teas are smuggled into the Canadas? — I have heard much of that. I have been in Canada, and heard of it there, and I suppose it did exist : I have spoken to that in the former part of my evidence. 1198. When you mentioned the quality of tea in America to be as good as that in England, did you refer to the fresh tea in America or to the old tea? — I believe the whole of the green teas, the hyson, the imperial, and gunpowder, to be as good tea as can be produced, in my opinion. 1199. As good tea as there is here? — Yes, 1 think so; they have been bought for Spanish dollars. 1200. Do you refer to the fresh teas of those descriptions, or the year-old teas of those descriptions r — I refer to the teas generally, when they are imported, being of as good quality as can be procured. Lunce, 1° die Mar Hi, 1830. JOHN FRANCIS DAVIS, Esq. again called in, and examined. 1201. The Committee understand that trade, on the part of the East-India 1 March 1830. Company, is given in shares to the Hong merchants ; will you state the pro- : portion of those shares? — The shares aie in number twenty-one; of which " -^«*^'*3 •^*'/- the chief Hong merchant has four, the four next three, and the two last two and a half each. 1202. Are there not some of the Hong merchants insolvent ? — Certainly not ; they are all in full trade. 1203. Do each of them really receive those shares of the trade? — Some of them receive more, according to the teas which may be at their disposal beyond the actual cojitracts. Those proportions apply only to what are called the contract tdas, about three-fifths of the Company's investment. The remaining two-fifths are left to be filled up by casual tenders on the part of those who may have the best teas to offer. 1204'. Are the casual tenders always from the Hong merchants, and never from any other party ? — From the Hong merchants. 1205. Are 142 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: I March 1830. 1205. Are those shares considered of value ? — As regards the teas, but otherwise as regards the imports ; for the Hong merchants sustain a loss upon J. 1'. Davis, Esq. a great number of imports. 1206. Upon the whole you consider them valuable ? — They must be so. 1207. Have you ever heard them estimated at any certain amount.' — I have heard such conjectural estimates ; but they must be mere guesses, as we cannot have access to their books. 1208. Have you ever known them to be sold ? — Certainly not ; it is quite out of my knowledge. 1209. Did you ever hear that each share was reckoned worth 40,000 dollars ? — It must be a guess on the part of the person that reckoned it. 1210. With respect to contract teas, is the contract made each year? — It is made in the preceding season for the subsequent one. 1211. And the price then settled? — Always in reference to each denomi- nation of tea. There is a descending scale of prices ; and in reference to the tea which may be produced under each class, the price is settled. 1212. Is that series of price settled every year, or does it go on from year to year ? — The series of prices, in reference to qualities, is settled, and has been for some time. One difference I recollect that lately took place ; it was a general reduction in the prices of teas, one tale under every character. It took place in the year 1825, and was in favour of the Company to the amount of about £20,000. 1213. Then, with the exception of that diminution, the prices for each class of tea have been settled for some time ? — They have. 1214. Do you remember how long ? — I cannot state exactly. 1215. But from 1825 to the present moment the same price has been given? — Yes, generally. 1216. Are the teas that are not contract teas purchased also according to a scale of prices, or according to the market price ? — They are purchased in reference to their quality, and according to the scale. 1217. That is, in fact, upon the same rule with respect to price as the contract teas ? — No ; they are necessarily lower in price, being lower in quality. 1218. What do you call the teas which are not contract teas ? — There is a certain portion called " winter teas;" the remainder must be described by the negative term, " not contract teas." 1219. According to their quality, would the teas that are not contract teas be purchased by the Company at the same rate as the contract teas ? — No ; they are always understood to be lower. 1220. In J. F. Davis, Esq. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 143 1220. In what proportion are they lower? — The proportion must be 1 Marcli I83o. gathered from the total ; it is impossible for me to state it. 1221. Upon what ground is it that they are lower? — On the ground of their being inferior, or perhaps old teas. 1222. Are they always old teas? — Not always; but upon the ground of their being generally inferior. 1223. Is there not a portion of the winter teas which is of a superior quality of tea? — The winter teas are always purchased in the current season for shipment in the subsequent season. They are what were rejected as " contracts ;" they were below contract quality, and are taken at a very reduced price. 1224. Are they invariably below ? — They must be below, having been offered as contracts, and not accepted. 1225. Then are the Committee to understand, that all the tea which is not contract tea, has been rejected in the antecedent year as contract tea ? — In the current year — not all; only the winter tea. 1226. But the other portions, which are not winter teas, have not been rejected ? — Those which are not winter teas have not been rejected. 1227. What proportion do those which have not been rejected bear to those which have been rejected ? — It is very difficult for me to state, because the quantity of the winter teas varies in different seasons. 1228. Can you furnish the Committee with an account, for two or three years, of the proportions of the teas ? — The total investment of the Company's black teas is about 270,000 chests, of which the contracts are three-fifths. Of winter teas there are, I think, about 20,000 chests ; but this varies. 1229. The winter teas being the rejected teas of the antecedent year ? — Of the season antecedent to their shipment. They are purchased in February, and shipped in the subsequent October or November. They are rejected, not as being positively bad, but as being comparatively inferior to the high class called contract. 1230. Then the prices paid by the Company are settled according to the scale, and without reference to the market price of the day : — Yes ; but they are lower than the contracts. 'I hey are settled according to the scale, sub- ject to change and alteration. The Company has always regulated the market price of teas. 1231. AVhen did any change take place? — The last considerable change took place in 1825, but I will not say that some denominations have not been lowered since. 1232. How is the price fixed upon this scale ? — The price is fixed according to a certain classification under each denomination. There are not less than ten classes under each denomination ; for instance, under the denomination of Congo, there are, in fact, more than ten classes. 1233. Between 144 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 1 March 1830. 1233. Between what parties is it that this price is fixed? — Between the buyers and the sellers : between the Hong and the Company. ' ^'^' 1234. Do you know whether the teas that are sent to Canada are purchased by the Company according to the same scale of price as those sent to this country ? — They are not contract teas ; they are of a lower description. 1235. Do they form any proportion of the shares which the Hong mer- chants supply by contract? — No ; the whole consignment is to the amount of not more than £100,000. 1236. Those are not purchased then according to this scale of price? — They are purchased according to the price which the Company choose to affix to each quality. 1237. Are they higher or lower? — They are lower than the contracts, and of a lower quality. I23S. In proportion to the quality, are they lower than the contract teas? — I believe the price is proportioned, as well as can be, to the real value of the commodity in both cases. 1239. Can you speak positively to that ? — I should say decidedly. 1240. How are the prices of woollens, which the Hong merchants take, affixed ? — According to the demand. 1241. The same way as the teas ? — Yes ; except that the relative situation of the parties dealing becomes changed. The one become sellers, and the other buyers. 1242. l]ut still it is a mutual agreement between the parties? — Certainly. I would add, that the last consignment of woollens to China, it is estimated, will yield a profit upon the whole, if the prices remain the same as they were by the last accounts. 1243. Supposing then, in so far as the value of woollens goes, that there were an arbitrary price put upon the woollens and upon the tea, it does not follow that we should ascertain the exact value of the teas purchased by the Company ? — They must both be regulated according to the best conception that the two parties have of the supply and the demand. 1244. But they are not regulated according to the price of the day in either instance? — They must be; the market price of the day must be as much as the sellers can get, and as little as the buyers can manage to give. 1245. When the Americans entered into the trade of supplying Canton with manufactured goods, did the price of the manufactured article fall in the Canton market? — Certainly it did. 124G. Did the price of the woollens that the Company furnished to the Hong at the same time sustain a corresponding failure ? — They certainly fell ; the Company had to complain of a fall. 1247. To what extent? — I cannot tell exactly. 1248. Are ./. F. Davis, Esq. SELECT COMMITTEE oi iin: HOUSE OF COMMONS. 145 121'8. Are there any minutes kept of the agreements between the Hong 1 March 1830. and the supercargoes? — Tliey are all on the Company's records. V2i[). Do you remember when the hist arrangement was made between the Hong and the supercargoes, witli respect to the price of woollens? — The arrangement takes place every year, with reference to the supply and the demand. 1250. Do the prices vary every year? — Certainly. 1251. But not of the teas?— Yes, I have said before that they did. There was a variation in the whole investment in the year 1825, since which time I cannot exactly speak to particulars. 1252. Are you aware that if tea was purchased in the market of Canton, for ready money for instance, it might be bought at much lower rates than those paid by the Company ? — I think the evidence I heard in this room went to prove that. That what the Americans call a rich ship, that is, a ship freighted with dolkns, will always be more welcome to the Chinese than a ship freighted with mamifactures. 1253. Do you know the proportion in which teas so purchased for ready money would vary from the contract prices paid for the teas, supposing the quality to be the same? — Except that it would be lower for cash, I cannot speak exactly. 1254. Do you conceive that there would be a difference, upon bohea for instance, of from 9c/. paid by the Company to 5d. and a fraction paid by the Americans? — The denominations of teas can be no guide whatever with reference to the value of the teas. There is as much difference between the quality of teas of the same denomination, as there is between wine sold at a tavern and that drunk at a gentleman's table, althougii they are both called Sherry or Madeira. 1255. Are there no means of comparison at all between the prices paid in the market of Canton, and the contract prices of the Company's teas? — They are both in proportion to the real value of the commodity ; and the contract teas are of a very high quality. I am not aware that they are bought by any but the Company in general. 125G. In the year 1825, when a different arrangement took place about price, was there a meeting between the Hong merchants generally and the supercargoes with respect to that alteration in price?' — That would be the way in which such a measure must be operated. 1257. Do you remember whether it did actually take place? — No doubt it did. 1258. Are there any minutes of it? — There are the fullest minutes of every transaction that takes place regularly sent home, in what are called • Public Consultations,' to the India-House. T 1259. Can 146 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 1 March 1830. 1259. Can you inform the Committee of the particulars of an arrangement ^ — - entered into between the Select Committee and the supercargoes and the J. I. Davis, tsq. jjo^g merchants in the year 1828, not long after the failure of the security- merchant Manhop ? — There are complete minutes upon the subject at llie India-House; and they are of better authority than 1 am, for 1 happened from necessity to be absent from the spot at that period. 1260. Do you recollect what the substance of the agreement was ; whether it was not agreed by the Hong merchants, under a penalty of 20,000 dollars or some such sum, to be paid by any Hong merchant who should, after a certain date, grant a license for the sale of any foreign imports to any other person than a Hong merchant, or to ship off any goods purchased from an outside merchant? — This arrangement among the Hong merchants took place entirely without the instigation of the Committee, or their interference. It was in consequence of this edict from the Hoppo : — " From his excellency the Hoppo, Wan Ta- Jin, to the Linguists Achow and others : " It has been found out that some persons who formerly opened shops for European wares, have entered tlie merchants' hong's and clandestinely do business with foreigners ; but foreign ships coming to Canton are restricted, in all their imports and exports, to deal with the Hong merchants. If native shopmen carry on a clandestine com- merce, the law accounts it a treasonable intercourse. The severity of tlie law is to prevent frauds on the revenue. But the shopmen evade the law by forming connections with the Hong merchants, gradually entering and assuming a false pretence of super- intending the Hong concerns, carry on their illegal shops with the foreigners, and bring up and send down cargoes in the name of the Hong. The merchants connive at it, and the linguists receive bribes to report the duties. But it is forgotten that large debts for duties are accumulated, and foreign claims increased, and the Hong merchants are even- tually injured. The best way to prevent future evils is to be careful beforehand. Besides ordering Howqua and the other merchants to examine whether there be any shopmen in the Hongs or not, and forthwith to expel them instead of retaining them to carry on an illicit conunerce with foreigners, and declaring that if any dare to disobey this order, on the facts being discovered, the goods will be confiscated, and the shopmen delivered over to the local government to be punished. Besides doing these things, an order is hereby issued to the linguists, requiring them to act according to the tenour of this ; and hereafter should any .shopmen clandestinely enter the Hongs and deal with the foreigners, the linguists are disallowed to report their goods at the custom-house, and are required to give information to government that the goods maybe confiiicated. Should the linguists openly assent to and secretly oppose this order, and as befi)i-«» report goods at the custom-house, the moment it is discovered thev will be severely punished.— Dec. 17th, 1827." 1261. Are there not frequent proclamations or edicts by the Viceroy and by the Hoppo against smuggling of every kind? — This was a more particular one, in consequence of the successive failure of three of the Hong merchants. 1262. Are not frequent proclamations of that kind issued against smug- gling and illegal transaction.s ? — Not so frequently against what is called the " outside trade" as against the opium trade. 1263. Are SELECT COMMITTEE of thk HOUSE OF COMMONS. 14? 1263. Are not those considered matters of course, and does not smuggling j Marcli 18;J0. go on increasing notwitiistaiuling ? — I would confine the observation to opium, because that is a contrabantl article which cannot pay duties. The J- F- Davis, Esq. edict quoted is quite of a different description. I have not known more than three or four since my residence in the country. I remember one in I8I7, when the Company interfered wJrti^oMr of the shopmen, and requested the government to allow them to trade to a certain extent with tlie ships without being subject to the interference of the Hong merchants. Tliat application failed ; and it appears that there were two hundred shops soon after shut up by order of the government. This last was without any com- plaint on the part of the Hong j it was a spontaneous act on the part of the government. 1264. Are the Committee to understand that the Company entered into no arrangement with the Hong merchants in consequence of that ? — The Company had that year suffered very much by the abstraction from their contracts of teas of which they had always been accustomed to have the first choice ; and the Committee then thought, that as tiiey had suffered in that year's investment, it was for the interest of the Company to endeavour to maintain their accustomed advantage. The Court did not enter into these views to their full extent, and the resolution of the Committee has been altered ; but they did at the moment think that it was for the interest of the Company to tell those Hong merchants, whom they suspected af conniving at the system, that if any individual of their body contributed again to the injury of the Company's investment, for the sake of a higher price, the Company would diminish their dealings with him. 1265. Did they not state to the Hong merchants that tiiey reserved to themselves the right of depriving such Hong merchant ol any share of the Company's trade, if they sliould again grant parcels or permit facilities to the outside merchants to deal with the Americans and otiier traders ? — It did not extend to the general trade in articles which had always been allowed to the shopmen. It was with reference to teas more especially ; with re- ference to matters which affected the Company's investment and the Com- pany's interests. I2G6. As regarded tea alone, did they make their intention known to the Hong merchants? — Yes ; they told them that if they found their investment suftered, they should consider it their duty to show their disapprobation, by dealing less with the merchants who connived at it. 1267. Are the Committee to understand that the Chinese were themselves anxious to deal with Americans and others, and thereby abstracted a portion of the Company's trade, but tiiat the Company's servants interfered to ' prevent it? — The Company's servants at that time thought it was their duty to preserve the first choice, which they had always enjoyed, of those supe- rior teas ; and they thought they could do this in no other way, than by telling the merchants that they would deal less with any individual of their T2 body ./. F Davis, Esq. 118 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 1 y.avch 1830. body who injured the Company's interests by contributing to tlie new system. 1268. In fact, tliey were anxious to keep up that preference wliich they had in tlie choice of teas, notwithstanding tlie outside merchants wished to deal with others? — They did ; but the itiea lias been since given up, in con- sequence of the receipt of a reply from tlie Court, saying they thought it was better to let things take their natural course. 1269. Then, in fact, did matters revert to tlieir old channel, notwith- standing the edict you have now read ? — Certainly not, with regard to all commodities. It is still held by the Canton government to be traitorous for an outside dealer to deal in certain staple articles. 1270. Can you state any instance in which the government has acted on the spirit of that edict, and punished any outside merchant for dealing with Americans or any other foreigners? — I have not yet heard of any instance since that edict. 1271. What is the Chinese punishment for treason ; what penalty would attach to that class of treason which is designated by this trade ? — Treason, strictly speaking, is the highest crime that can happen under a despotism ; and in China entails the highest punishment. What sort of treason dealing with foreigners is, I am not aware; but it might probably be punished by banishment for life to Tartary. 1272. Have you ever known that punishment inflicted for that offence ? — Soon after the Company's interference in I8I7, two hundred shopmen were taken up and punished : the least punishment, I believe, was the confiscation of their goods. 1273. At what time was thatr — In the year I8I7. 1274. Have you ever known such a proceeding taken at any other period ? — Constantly ; it has happened every two or three years since I have been in the service, that outside men have been apprehended. It is for the purpose of extorting money from them. 1275. Has it, in point of fact, interrupted the proceedings of the outside merchants ? — It never can entirely. I consider the outside trade at Canton to be i)erfect!y secure in regard to certain permitted commodities, but not in regard to the others. 1276. Have you ever heard that outside merchants have given sums of money, 5,000 or 10,000 dollars, to the Hong merchants, for their pass to cover certain exports, which legally they could not send without the Hong merchants' authority ? — They iiave, I believe, bribed them. 1277- Has not that been of very frequent occurrence? — I believe that no outside dealer, where his business is illegal, can manage well to carry on such transactions without bribing the Hong merchants. It is a sort of tax on the outside trade. 1278. The SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 149 127s. The Coramiltee understand from you that the Hong merchants 1 ,M;,i-ch 1838. have legally a monopoly of the trade from the port of Canton ? — In staples. 1279. Do you mean in the trade with Europe and India? — The Chinese "^^ -'•• ■^-^«'"'*' ^■-■'•'/• do not disciiminate between the places from which foreigners come. IC'SO. Do you recollect any articles wiiich are excepted from that mono- poly ? — There is one which, I believe, is now excepted, namely, silk piece- goods ; it is a trade which the Hong merchants cannot carry on, being a business of detail, fit only for the outside dealers. 1'281. Did not that take place in IS^S by proclamation? — The pro- clamations were against free trade ; but silk has been allowed to the outside dealers. 1282. Then except silk piece-goods all other articles are considered illegal, if they do not go through the Hong merchants? — Besides silk piece- goods, there are a variety of trifling things. The daily wants of a foreigner at Canton must be supplied from the shops ; for instance, a man could not go and buy a pair of shoes from Howqua. There are, besides, sugar-candy, and mats, and things of that kind. 1283. Are you aware of sums of money being paid by the outside merchants to the Hoppo for the privilege of exporting ? — I am not aware of that ; I should say, they were paid to the Hong merchants. The Hoppo is in a situation too high to admit of bargains between him and the outside dealers. I should think the bribes were paid in part to the underlings of the Hoppo. 1284. Will you state what the office of the Hoppo is, and what his duties are, and the importance of them?— He is the third civil officer in rank at Canton ; he ranks after the governor of the province ; and he is chief com- missioner of the customs. His duty is to superintend the foreign trade in general. 1285. Are you aware whether he is paid by salary or by commission ? — I believe that, under that corrupt government, he receives very little positive salary, and is allowed principally to pay himself. Most of the situations connected with foreign trade are sold to the best bidder, who remunerates himself as he can. 1286. Have you not heard that that is principally done by conniving at evasions of the revenue? — I believe that it is to a considerable extent, and by sums that he wrings from the Hong merchants ; in every way, in fact, that he can obtain money. 1287. Are the Committee to understand that there is a disposition, on the part of the Chinese outside merchants, to deal with foreigners, but that the llong, by the privileges which they possess, restrain them ? — I should say, that there is necessarily a disposition, on the part of the outside dealers, to participate in the lucrative trade with foreigners, but that both the govern- ment and the Hong merchants are, from interest, opposed to it ; the govern- ment 150 EVIDENCE OX EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 1 March 1830. uietit, because they are more secure of tlieir revenues if they come regu- ■ liuly ; and the Hong merchants, naturally, with that self-love which leads J. I. J)avis, Esq. every man to do the best for himself and the body to which he belongs. 1^288. But you say that the government have relaxed in some of the regulations in favour of the outside merchants ? — I believe that in one article they have, either by positive connivance or by positive enactment, allowed the silk trade to the outside dealers. 1289. Was there any written contract, on the occasion that has been mentioned, between the supercargoes and the Hong merchants ? — I believe that it was, just in so many words, addressed to those Hong merchants whom they suspected of having assisted in depriving them of their accus- tomed choice of teas, that they would show tiieir displeasure towards any Hong merchants who contributed to it, by dealing less with them than with the others. 1290. Have you any knowledge of a letter addressed by the American agent to the chief of the Select Committee, remonstrating against such part of the arrangement in question as involved his interest as an American ? — Some of the Americans (for all of them would not sign these petitions to the government) had endeavoured to bring the British into odium with the Chinese. I think on the Company's records there is copy of an address of theirs, saying that the British had set themselves up in opposition to the Emperor — a charge of the most injurious cast in sucii a country as Cliina ; and we at that moment felt that we owed so little to the Americans, and particularly to this individual, that we returned a very short answer. He wanted us to assist him on some occasion, and we returned him a very laconic answer, from the feeling that we owed him very little. 1291. Is that letter and that answer on record ?— I think they both are on record. This petition had not been signed by all the Americans. 1292. Are you aware whether the American merchants at Canton, on finding that their trade with the outside merchants was put an end to by the arrangement made between the supercargoes and the Hong, held a meeting and resolved to petition the Viceroy against such proceeding? — I believe that those individuals of the Americans who had signed this previous petition, did repeat their application through the medium of the Hong mer- chants. 1293. Have you ever seen a copy or translation of that petition sent in by the Americans? — I saw some five or six of them j but with regard to that particular one, I cannot say. 129i. Did not one of these petitions to the Viceroy charge the agents of the J'.ast-India Company directly with having originated the arrangement which the Americans considered so prejudicial to their interest ? — If they did make that assertion, the records will show that it was incorrect. 1295. According SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMON'S. lil 1295. According to your recollection, was that the allegation in their 1 .Mardi 1830. petition? — It might have been their allegation; but if it was so, I must deny the truth of it. •/• F. Dads, JJs/j. 1296. Are you aware whether any answer was sent to that petition from the Chinese authorities? — Yes ; but the tenour of it I cannot speak to. There was so much correspondence that I cannot speak positively to any individual document. 1297' Have you ever seen the answer of the government to the American application ? — I dare say I did, but its exact tenour I cannot charge my memory with. 1298. Do you recollect whether that proclamation for the first time legalized the transactions of foreigners with outside merchants ? — I should say that there is no material difference at this moment with regard to the real state of the trade, except in the article of silk piece-goods. I have heard, though I cannot speak positively from my own recollection, as it did not con- cern us, that manufactured silk has been added to the other things that were before allowed to the outside dealers. 1299- Did it not,^ to the best of your recollection, as regarded the export of manufactured silks, and the import of all cotton manufactures, legalize the trade with the outside dealers ? — Yes, I think it did ; it admitted those things to the list which before existed of the trade permitted to the outside dealers. 1300. Will you have the goodness to read, from the Canton Register of the 2d of August 1828, a statement therein contained of a proclamation concerning the trade carried on by shopmen, dated July 14th, 1828. [^The ivilness then read the same, as follows .•] " Proclamation concerning the Trade carried on by Shopmen ; dated July 14th, 1828. " Le, governor of Canton, &c, &c. with Yen, commissioner of customs at the port of Canton, hereby make known regulations agreed upon for carrying on commerce between native shopmen and foreign merchants of all nations, and require obedience to the same. " The treasurer and judge of Canton having received orders to meet and deliberate on the subject, reported to me, the governor, as follows : " ' We being commanded to meet and deliberate on regulations for the trade between native shopmen and foreign merchants, ordered the Kwongchowfoo to unite with the Nanhae and Pwangu magistrates, and examine the old records on the subject, then consult and state their opinion. They did so, and laid the result before us, when we came to the following resolutions : " ' Foreign merchants of all nations coming to Canton were formerly restricted, in their dealings with shopmen, to leather slioes, china-ware, &c. eight articles. E.xclusive of these, all imports and exports were conlined to the Hong merchants, who were made responsible for the duties, to prevent smuggling and such nefarious proceedings. The linguists were pppointed solely for interpreting, and were not responsible for trade. It Ls proper to keep them on the old tooting, in coiiformitv with existing laws. " ' But 152 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 1 March 1830. ^' ' But the Hoiig' merchants have now represented, that the Americans are desirous — to be allowed to trade either with sliopnieuor Hong merchants as they please, whether i/. 2". Davis, Esq, for great or small conniiodities. And of late, foreign ships in greater numbers have come to Canton, in which are a great many trading skippers, for whom the eight articles to which they were restrictetl are insuthcient. The circumstances of present and former times are difl'erent. That on deliberation, they would miike out a list of the larger articles of import and export cargo to be confined to the Hon g merc/iaiits, and earnestly soliciting a change of the law, which would be showing compassion to the remote foreigners, and be beneficial at home. I'his was their motive. " ' We (the treasurer and judge) commanded the officers before-named to examine into the subject and report, which they did. It is proper for us now to state the result ; which is, that a list be made ovit of exports, tea, raw silk, &c. 24 articles ; and of imports, tcoollens, camlets, &c. 53 articles ; all of which large commodities the shopmen shall be jjroliibited from dealing in. " ' All other goods not inserted in the list, whether exports or imports, coarse or heavy commodities, miscellaneous articles and eatidiles, shall be left free to the foreign mer- chants to deal with shopmen, and shall be shipped off by Hong merchants, wiio are to be responsible for the duties. As to worked silks, since they are not brought from Soochow or Hongchow, but woven fi'om time to time by natives of Canton when applied for by the foreign merchants, and since the Hong fnerchants say that this practice is expedient, both for foreigners and natives, it is right to grant their request [to leave silks free]. » " ' All coarse and miscellaneous articles not inserted in the list are free to the foreign mercliant who now chooses to deal with shopmen. But hereafter, if the shop- men inci\r debts, the Mandarin merchants shall not be implicated. The foreign mer- chant must, in all such cases, be left to himself to clear his account. " ' With respect to shopmen dealing with foreigners, it is inexpedient to leave them without some one to inspect their conduct. \\e (the treasurer and judge) request that it may be made the duty of the Hong merchants and linguists to examine them from time to time, and shoiild there be any smuggling, the Hong merchants shall be respon- sible, and the linguists brought up and j)Unished. This change seems required by the times ; and since the foreigners \\\\\ be conipassii nated, the merchants accununodated, and the Tesjionsibility Jixed, there will be i.o loss to the revenue, nor any obstacle from the laws. " ' Haviiig rc-ceived orders to examine and cons ilt, wo now sul)mit whether these sug- gestions be right or not, and wait for instructions to protniilgate tliem. We more- over request that a conmiunication may be made to the Hoppo to ccamiue and conform.' " These statements have come before me, the gov ernor ; and as the deliberations ■are completed, I direct, in accordance with the abfv'e suggestions, a list „o be made out of exports — 'tea, raw silk, &c. 24 articles. [Here he quotes, rerixdim, the pre- ceding paragraplis, and desires the Hoppo to iss le a priclanialuni in their unitotl names to the Htnig merchants, to comnuuiicate tlie orders of government to the foreig-ners of all nations, and to the native shopmen, that one and all o( them may yield obedience to the same.] " Tiius the affair comes before me, the Hoppo, and I hereby issue, in ihe name of the governrir and Hoppo, tiic following orders, [Here he (juotes, verbatim, the preceding, and then adds] — " Let merchants, foreigners, linguists and shopnx'u, all b<; hereby fully informed, that hereafter they are required inqilicitly to obey the j)rece(ling I'cgidations, to examine and conform their dealings to the list of exports and iiujiorts hereto annexed. Honj;- merchants alone are allowed to trade in \\\e arlicies therein mci> tioned. Shopmen are not permitted to luivc any secret intercourse with foreigners. " Of SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 153 " Of the wroiifjht silks, each shop is to be limited to S.OOO catties. The said 1 March 1830. shopmen are permitted to deal with foreigners only in miscellaneous articles, not in the great articles of commerce. J, /•'. Davis,Etq. " The forei<,m merchant, in dealing- with shopmen, has been required to g^ive in a list, throug-h the linguist, whose ears and eyes were near and can easily investigate. Here- after in reporting goods to be shipped off, he must distinguish clearly which belong to Hong merchants and which to shopmen. It is made the duty of the linguist to discriminate according to law, ere a permit be given. He is not allowed to confuse these things ; if he do, he will be severely punished. " The linguists are besides, ordered to make out a list of all the foreign-goods shops, and whether the owners be substantial good people, and cause them forth- with to present to government associated names for security, to be preserved on record. " As to any debts that may hereafter be contracted by the shopmen, ihe foreigners themselves must manage the affair. " It is incumbent on the Hong merchants and lingxiists to exainine and report on what is going on. If they presume to conceal what they know, and any clandes- tine proceeding be educed, they will be severely prosecuted. Positively the gover- nor's and Hoppo's words once gone forth, the law will follow. Positively no indul- gence will be shown. Let every one implicitly obey. Oppose not this special edict. " List of the 24 Articles of Export, (confined to the Hongs). " 1. All sorts of teas. '2> Raw silk from Oakwong. 3. Silk prepared for weaving. 4. Canton raw silk. 5. All sorts of cloth. 6. Native cassia. 7- Cassia buds. 8. Sugar-candy. 9. Sugar. 10. Tutenague. 11. Alum. VI. Cloves. 13. Nutmeg (or mace). 14. Quicksilver. 15. China camphor. 16-. Rhubarb. 17. Galangal. 18. China root. 19. Vermilion. 20. Gamboge. 21. Damar. 22. Star anniseed. '23. Pearl shells. 24. Cochineal. " List of the 53 Articles of Import. " 1. Worleys. 2. Dutch camlets. 3. Camlets. 4. Long-ells. 5. Broad-cloths. G. Cuttings of cloth. 7- Sorts of camlets. H. Florentines. 9. Ginseng. 10. San- dal-wood. 11. Bird's-nests. 12. Cloves. 13. Nutmegs. 14. Putchuck. 15. Oli- banum. 16. Malay camphor. 17. Elephants' teeth. 18. Pepper. 11'. Foreign tm. 20. Ditto lead. 21. Ditto copper. 22. Ditto steel. 23. Cotton. 24. Rattans. 25. Betel-nut. 2G. Smalts. 27. Prussian blue. 28. Bicho do Mar. 29. Fish maws. .30. Sharks' fins. 31. Materials for glass. 32. Ebony. 33. Sapan-wood. 34. Cochineal. 35. Gum kino. 36. Myrrh. 37. Physic. 38. Assafcetida. 39. Physic oil. 40. Quicksilver. 41. Foreign iron. 42. Wax. 43. Cutch. 44. Pearl shells. 45. Sago. 46. Undressed nests^ 47. 48. Flints. 49. Borax. 50. Amber. 51. Gold and silver thread. 52. All sorts of skins. 53. Mace." 1301. Does it appear by that proclamation tliroiigh wliat authority the American petition was presented ?^It could only be presented through the medium, and in the words, of the Hong nieichants. The question re- solves itself into the respective privileges which Americans and English pos- sess at Canton; and in order to show that the Company have «o/ been hostile to ilie Americans, I may state that I myself interfered, with the sanction of our Committee, in favour of an American named Ammidon, in IS'25, and availed myself of the knowledge I had of the Chinese language to write a petition for him to the authorities, complaining of the conduct of the Hong merchants. That petition was sent back unopened to the American, with a message to say, that no American could communicate U directly 154. EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 1 March 1830. directly in the native language with the government. The individual's griev- ance remains to this day unredressed. /. F. Davis, Esq. iSQO, Do not the Chinese government in that proclamation state that cir- cumstances are changed, and that it is necessary tor them to make alteration in their commercial regulations as regarded the outside merchants? — It says that the eig/it articles are insufficient, and that therefore it is necessary to enlarge it by the addition of the articles stated, principally of silk manu- factures. 1303 Is it stated there that the Hong merchants shall have the privilege of dealing only in a certain number of staple articles? — It does not jJro//ii// them from dealing in other articles : it says, that they shall have the exclusive right * of dealing in staple articles. loOi. Are you aware that there is a list of " enumerated articles," which none but British ships can import into England? — There is, I believe, a regu- lation of that kind. 1305. With reference to the estimation in which the English are held at Canton, have you ever seen or heard of placards in the Chinese language being posted up on the European factories, accusing the English of being the means of interrupting trade between foreigners and the outside merchants ? — I believe there are placards put up by the Chinese occasionally against all foreigners, containing charges of a much more serious description than that ; but I have not heard of those particular placards to which the question refers. Lampooning is very common in that country. They even placard the officers of their own government. 1306. Have you known of any placards complaining of the interference of the East-India Company? — No; placards containing abuse of all foreigners I have heard of frequently, but not of the particular placard alluded to. ISO7. Are you aware whether that proclamation has been acted upon in regard to permitting the outside merchants to deal with foreigners? — I be- lieve that the outside trade is now very much in tlie same state that it has always been at Canton. It was legalized, with. regard to certain articles, be- fore, and to that list some commodities have been since added, 1308. In your former evidence you stated that the Ciiinese are decidedly an anti-commorcial people ; will you state any individual instance in which the Chinese have refused intercourse with foreigners? — They have excluded us from several ports to which we formerly had access. They have excluded the Russians from Canton. 1309. E)o you recollect the date w^lien we were excluded? — Not exactly j but it was about the end of the seventeenth century, in consequence of the conquest of the Tartars. The Tartars became masters of China, and were I suppose, more jealous than the former government, and accordingly excluded us from Amoy. 1310. Have SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 155 1310. Have you ever lieard that tl>e Europeans excluded themselves from 1 March 1830. those ports to avoid the exactions made by the Chinese autiiorities ? — No: I — ~ believe they were positively excluded by an act of the government ; I believe '^' ^ ■^""*' ^*'?'* they would not be admitted there now. I have seen edicts from the govern- ment, saying that foreign trade must be confined to Canton. 1311. Have you any idea of what the extent of the tea trade to England was at that time ? — It was very inconsiderable, compared with our present trade. 1312. Are the Committee then to understand that the tea trade to England, now so large, has grown up since Europeans we excluded from Amoy ? — Certainly. 1313. Is not that new trade beneficial to the people of China? — It would be more beneficial (because I conceive it would be larger) if it were nearer to the centre of the empire. That very great accession to the prices of tea, uliich arises from the long land-carriage, would be avoided, if the trade were nearer to the tea provinces. 1314. Must not so large a trade be beneficial to the country ? — It cannot but be beneficial, as far as it goes. 1315. If the trade is beneficial, on what grounds do you suppose the govern- ment to be decidedly hostile to increase that trade? — Because it is decidedly hostile to foreign intercourse. The institutions of the country are built on the maxims of their great philosopher, Confucius; and it was a leading pre- cept of his to avoid intercourse with foreigners — " to despise foreign com- modities ;" those are his words. The sacred books of the Chinese are diflferent from the sacred books of most other countries ; they are not so much re- ligious books, as treatises on ethics and on government ; and as long as the Chinese venerate those books, so long will the institutions built upon those books remain more or less unchanged. 131G. Does the veneration of the Chinese, whatever may be its appeai'ance practically, prevent them from carrying on a foreign trade? — Principles of government that are absolutely preposterous in themselves, and contrary to the dispositions of human nature, must in fact render themselves futile to a certain extent; and to that extent the foreign trade prevails in China. 1317- Are you aware that the port charges on vessels going to Amoy are much higher than those on vessels trading to Canton, even taking the Chinese junks? — I should think there is no difierence between native vessels ; all the extortion and the tyranny is chiefly in regard to foreigners. 1318. If it should be the fact that the port charges at Amoy for Chinese junks are higher than the port charges at Canton, might not that, in some measure, account for the cessation of trade to that port? — I really cannot speak to the difference of charges on native vessels. 1319- Can you speak as to the difference of charge which may exist at Amoy and at Canton with respect to foreign vessels? — I can only speak U 2 from 156 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 1 March 1830. from the trade at Amoy having been abandoned by foreign vessels in conse- ~~ quence of those charges ; but they were not so much charges recognized by ■ ■ "^**' ^^' any law of the countiy, as individual acts of extortion on the part of the Mandarins. 1320. When you talk of the exorbitancy of the charges, do you mean any excess of charge at Amoy as compared with Canton? — I should judoe from the result, that they were higher at Amoy. 1321. Were not the Spaniards the only nation that had the privilege ol trading to Amoy ? — All foreigners possessed that right formerly. 1322. Did not the Spaniards continue to have that right later than any other nation ? — They had the nominal privilege; but that was rendered nu- gatory by the obstacles they experienced. 1323. How lately have they abandoned it? — Within the last twenty years one attempt was made, which proved unsuccessful. I should say, that all the ports of China are virtually as completely shut to Europeans as the ports of Japan, with the exception of the Dutch. 1324. Do you conceive the port of Amoy to be shut to all British vessels? — Certainly. 1325. As the trading intercourse in China of European subjects has in- creased, does it not show that the anti-commercial spirit is somewhat dimi- nished ? — I should say, that it was the operation of the interests of individuals against a preposterous policy. 1326. Does not that interest answer the same end?^ — It must be checked, to a certain extent, by the spirit and conduct of the government. The trade would be infinitely greater, if wc had access to several ports of the empire. 1327. You have stated that the Chinese government are aware of the ad- vantage of the great trade with Canton? — 1 cannot say that they ever ex- pressed themselves so, but very much the reverse : it may be hiferred that they value it, to the extent of the revenue which they derive from it, and which is very inconsiderable in proportion to the revenues of the empire. They would value it less, as they lost this revenue by the growth of smuggling. 1328. What is the amount of revenue remitted annually by the Hong? — I have heard it stated at 2,000,000 of tales ; but that is a trifling sum. 1329. Is not that about £(350,000 a year ? — It is. 1330. Does that amount include the port charges of the port of Canton ? — I should think it does ; that on whatever grounds it is calculated, it includes every source of profit to the government. 1331. Are there any local charges upon the trade at Canton, independently of the government duties? — 1 should think that the heaviest charge on the foreign trade at Canton was in the shape of extortion ; much heavier than what finds its way to the coffers of the Emperor. 1332. Indc- SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 157 1332. Independently of extortion, is there any portion of the cliarges 1 March 1830-. upon the trade which is locally appropriated at Canton ? — There is a cliarge called the consoo charge, for the benefit of the corporation of Hong merchants. "^* ^' -'^''"'•S ^-•'•■•Z- 1333. Have you ever seen in the Canton Register, that the Hoppo, or treasurer of the place, is stated to have remitted annually to Pekin between 1,900,000 and 2,000,000 of tales ?— I may have seen it, but I should not found an opinion on any thing that I saw in the Canton Register : it is not a v;ork of sufficient authority. 1334. Are you aware whether the revenue remitted is merely the revenue on imports, or does it comprise the transit duties also? — It must include the revenue of exports also ; for the Chinese charge a tax oP 3d. a pound on the shipment of teas at Canton. 1335. Are you aware whether the Chinese levy at Canton any duties in kind ? — I am not aware of any such duties at present. There are a few clocks and watches, and such things, which are annually sent up to the Emperor. 1336. Are you not aware that the port charges go to the Hoppo, as his private perquisite ? — No ; there is a proportion of about one-half which goes to the Hoppo : the other ought to find its way to the Emperor. 1337. In your former evidence you stated that the government of China is as independent of foreign trade as that of any country in the world : how do you reconcile that with the statement afterwards given, that in 1814, when the English supercargoes suspended the foreign trade for six months, the government were so much aftected, that they yielded to the terms dic- tated by the East-India Company ? — I do not think that goes to contradict my former assertion, " that it is as independent as any government in the world," though it xvas thought proper in that case, by the local authorities of Canton, to continue this trade with foreigners. The English were (at that moment of war) the 011!^ traders at Canton ; and if Ihet/ had been excluded, all trade must have ceased. 1338. Have you ever heard what proportion of the population are main- tained in growing teas r — I cannot speak to that. We do not know what their whole population is, nor, accordingly, any fractional part of it ; our sources of information are so unsatisfactory. Even their own books seem most contradictory, and t:) be founded on no grounds that can be relied on. 1339. Do you mean to say that tlie Chinese government so long established, have no statistical tables or estimates, accessible to foreigners, of the popula- tion of the different districts ? — I have seen one of those accounts, in which the population is made to be about 250,000,000 ; but I do not attach a great deal of faith to the correctness of it. 1340. Are you to be understood to state, that the provinces of Fokien and Kiangnan are principally employed in rearing tea ? — Eokien, Kiangnan, Tchekiang, and Kiangsce. 1341. From 158 EVIDENCE OX EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 1 Maicli 1830. 1344. From wliat you have seen of China, is not it very difficult for the lower classes to live ? Is not there a great competition for labour? — I do ./. F. Davis, Es']. not think there is much more abject, miserable poverty there, tiian in many other countries of the world : I am sorry to say, than in our own : I mean in proportion to the population. 1342. Are not wages low in China generally ? — Wages are low, but the wants of the people are rendered comparatively few by the superiority of their climate : they are more independent of clothing, and lodging, and fire, than the inhabitants of colder countries. 1343. Has it not come to your knowledge, that there have been frequent rebellions and disturbances in different provinces in China? — From famines. 1344. V.Hiat would be the effect, in your opinion, on a dense population like that of China, if the foreign trade, admitted by the statements to be so large, was suspended. Would it not add very mucli to the distress existing there ? — It might to the local distress of Canton, but I do not think it would be felt out of the province of Canton ; except, perhaps, in the tea districts. 1315. Are not those tea districts extensive, and their population numerous? — They must be large, judging from the quantity of tea which we export, and which is known. 134G. Do you not consider that very serious evils affecting the govern- ment would arise if tlieir foreign trade was put an end to? — I am not aware that any evils arose in those ports from which we have been already- excluded. 1347. Do not you conceive that there was a proportionate increase of export from Canton, when the exclusion of foreign trade took place in other ports? — Yes ; but I spoke with reference to the local evils: not the general effect upon the empire, but the local evils suffered at those points from which the foreign trade was abstracted. 1348. If the produce of those ports found its way to Canton, would not the local inconvenience be limited to the inconvenience which might be sustained at the other ports? — The local inconvenience would be local to those places from which it was taken. 1349. Are you not aware that the tea province of Kiangnan is by far the largest and most populous province in China? — It was so long before the foreign trade ever reached China; it is a matter of ancient history that it always has been so. 1350. Has not the old tea trade, as an export, grown up since the time when it was excluded from the other ports, and must not circumstances be very much changed since that time? — Tiiat is a matter upon which I cannot speak from positive knowledge. The export of tea has grown up since that time ; but in what proportion it has added to the population of those pro- vinces, I cannot state. 1351. You SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 159 1351. You are aware tliat the trade of 50,000,000 or 00,000,000 of people j Marcli 1830. in Bengal is confined to the port of Calcutta. Would not the closing of the trade of Calcutta affect the general prosperity of the country? — I should J. F- Davix, Exq. think that, as we are masters of the country, our imports into India spread more uniformly over those dominions than they do in China, where they are restricted to Canton. It has been estimated that barely one-ninth of our imports is consumed in the north of China, on account of the distance. 1352. The question refers to e.rports from China? — I am persuaded that the inconvenience would be chiefly local. The influence of foreign trade does not extend very far inland from Canton. 1 have had reason to form that opinion from what we saw in the embassy. 1353. What is the population of Canton by the nearest estimate you have heard ? — There are no sources from which I can give correct information. 1354. Have you never heard that the population living actually in boats on the Canton river amount to nearly 1,000,000 of people ? — I can only say I do not believe one word of that assertion ; it is an outrageous estimate. Forming an opinion from what one sees, I should compare it with the river at London, and should say it was not any thing like so much. 1355. What do you suppose the population to be of the city of Canton and the suburbs? — I should think it cannot be a fourth or a fifth of that of London. 1356. Do you mean that, according to the best estimate you can form, the number of persons living by occupations on the river at Canton is not greater than it is upon the river Thames ? — That it is not so great as the number upon the river Thames at London ; I mean the floating population in boats, and ships, and barges. 1357. Do not the rivers and canals of China afford great facilities in carrying on the trade to and from Canton ; and are not the individuals so emphtyed as industrious and enterprizingas men can be ? — With all that has been done, the facilities are in a very inferior state to what they might be. The river which brings the teas to Canton from the frontier of the province, where it has to cross a high mountain, is a mere trout-stream for a great pro- portion of the way ; and foreigners of all descriptions have been obliged to wait at Canton for months on account of there not being enough water in that river to float the vessels that bring the teas. 1358. Would you consider those individuals who carry on that communi- cation more commercial than the population of Bengal ? — The Chinese, if left by their rulers to tliemselves, would perhaps be the most industrious and commercial people in the world. 1359. Are they not, so flir as you know, the most commercial people in the whole of the East ? — Except the Arabs, perhaps ; they do not navigate so far as the Arabs do. 1360. Will. 160 EVlDr.NCE ON EAST4ND1A AFFAIRS: J March 1830, 1360. Will you have the goodness to explain how you reconcile what you have lust stated with the answer you gave in your first examination, that the ./. . uavis, iLsq. ciiaracter of the Chinese was that of a decidedly anti^-commercial people ? — ■ I am speaking now with reference to their internal commerce, the very cir- cumstance which makes them so independent of external or Joreig}i commerce. In my former answer, I was speaking of foreign commerce. 1361. Can you form any estimate of the quantity of tea retained for home consumption in China, as compared with the quantity exported ? — Ko; it must bear a certain proportion to the population ; but the quantity of tea consumed by the Chinese generally is very small. They economize the use of it wonderfully. An ordinary Chinese puts his tea-leaves into the teapot in the morning, and they last him through the day. The drink is kept warm by a contrivance which forms a stratum of non-conducting air between tlie two vessels that contain it. 1362. Is there no means of forming an idea of what is the proportion which is exported as compared with that which is retained ? — The proportion could only be ascertained by positive information as to the whole quantity produced ; but that information has never been obtained. 1363. Have you no information, however general or however rough ? — None whatever, as to the quantity that is produced : assertion is very easy, but proof is not equally so. 136k Are you aware that the English and Americans have exported exceeding 40,000,000 of pounds of tea ? — The Company have exported about 30,000,000, and the Americans about 8,000,000 by the last account. 1365. Taking the rest of Europe, is it not altogether within 40,000,000 ? — The consumption of Russia is stated at about .'5,000,000, the consumption of the continent of Europe is not quite 5,000,000, and the consumption of the whole civilized world, besides England, is about 22,000,000, while the consumption of England is about 30,000,000. 1366. Have you ever heard any estimate of what quantity is used for internal consumption ic China? — 1 have never heard any information on the subject that I can rely upon. 1367. Is the tea exported to Russia raised in the southern provinces from which we obtain our tea ? — It is, I believe, raised in the northern part of the empire. 1368. Do you know where? — I am not very certain as to the locality. It is a different species of tea from what we use, and that is the best proof of the difference of the locality. IS69. Is there any quantity grown in the western provinces ? — Not in the western. It is grown on the line of sea-coast on the eastern side. 1370. Are you aware that when tea has been exported and turns out bad, if the chesv is returned two are given for one ? — That may have happened in individual J. F Davis, Esq. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. l6l individual cases, and in the instance of the merchant Howqua, who is known j Match 1830. for his HbeiaHty and his wealth ; but I doubt it altogether as a general fact. 1371. Is it not a general thing on the part of the Company? — It is a different operation in the case of the Company ; the Company debit the merchants in their books. As an insulated act of voluntary and spontaneous generosity, it may be intelligible on the part of a rich Hong merchant like Howqua ; but the Company could hardly venture to do such a thing on their own part as to exact double the amount of all losses. 1372. Have you heard of the Hong merchants doing that to the Americans and private traders ? — I have heard of cases in which Hong merchants have refused to make out/ remuneration : it has always been an act of spontaneous good feeling on the part of the Hong merchant that did it. 1373. Are you not aware of instances where that has been done? — I am aware of a great number of instances where it has been declined. 1374. Can you state any instance ? — I know an instance in which a Hong merchant made it part of his stipulation that he should not be obliged to make good the loss of the tea that was returned. 1375. From such stipulation would you not infer that the contrary practice had been the general rule? — All my information goes to prove, that it has not been the general rule ; that most of the individuals that have been applied to have refused, and that the generality of the rule has been in the other direction. 1376. On what ground, then, do you suppose that previous stipulation could have been made ? — It was a mode which that individual adopted to save himself from unpleasant applications, wiiich he was determined to refuse. 1377. You have stated you consider the heavy duties on foreign manu- factures as a proof that the people are anti-commercial, and wish to check the trade with foreigners ? — It is partly a proof of that, and partly a proof of the greediness of the Chinese government. 1378. Can you state the highest rate of duty laid on any manufacture ? — I cannot call the highest rate to mind at tliis moment. 1379. That is one of the reasons why you consider the Chinese government averse to foreign trade ? — It is one of the reasons. *&' 1380. If you were shown that England lays twice as much duty on foreign manufactures, would you conclude that England is an anti-commercial country ? — The fact would go generally, and in the abstract, to sanction the inference. 1381. You have stated that the Company derive great advantage from their superior class of shipping ; are you aware of the disadvantage the Com- pany have in regard to the rate of freight ? — That is the price which they pay for the advantages. X 1382. Are 162 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : rMarch 1830. 1382. Are you aware that the Company are paying from £26 to £27 per ton, whilst tea can be imported for £9 or £10 per ton in other ships? — I J, F.Davis, Esq. believe that the average payment for tonnage, on the part of the Company, is not so high as that stated in the question. 1383. Are you aware what the average freight at present is in the Com- pany's regular ships? — I know it has fallen 50 per cent, since the war; but • I cannot speak to the present amount. 1384. Are you aware what the difference of freight to the Company would be on the 28,000 tons, beyond what any other individuals could bring the tea to England for ? — I cannot answer that exactly. If it was deemed advisable, I consider an act of the Legislature might oblige the Company to go into the market for their tonnage like other merchants. 1385. You have stated as another advantage of the Company's large ships, that they are better adapted for the stowage of teas ; can you state, of your own knowledge, whether a 500 ton ship, carrying tea to Canada, or bringing tea to England, has brought the tea in a worse condition than that which is brought in the larger ships ? — The standard of teas that we send to the North American colonies is inferior to the standard imported into Great Britain. I can speak to the fact of one ship, the Barkworth, having delivered her cargo in a most deplorable condition, and entailing most serious loss. 1386. Can you state the circumstances of that case ? — It arose from her general condition as a ship. I believe that in most cases the cargoes are turned out in a worse condition from ships of that description than from the Company's regular ships. 1387- You know that a small ship does not carry so much in proportion as a large ship ? — I am aware of that from personal knowledge. 1388. Since you have been at Canton, have not the country traders had some very large ships, of 1,000 or 1,200 tons? — Not of that last capacity. I have heard of their having a few large ships lately : but the American ton is less than ours. 1389. Are you aware that practically, as their old ships wear out in India, they are gradually introducing a smaller class of ships, more approaching the American ships, for the whole of the country trade ? — I am not aware of that. 1390. Are you aware that the ships that now visit China from India are smaller than they used to be ? — I am not aware of that. 1391. Besides the tea which comes from the two provinces which chiefly supply Canton, is there not also tea grown in many other parts of the empire r — I believe it is a product which is dependent very much on soil and climate, and that for that reason it is principally confined to the provinces which have been mentioned. 1392. When SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 1C3 1392. When you tasted the tea at Pekin, did that appear to you to be of , ^. ... .gon the same kind as the tea brought to Canton ? — It was generally rather ' difterent. j. /'. Uacis, Ksg. 1393. Do you apprehend that it came from the same provinces ? — I have understood that tea is grown in one of the north-western provinces, towards the great wall. 1394. But in no other part of the empire to any great extent? — Not to any geat extent. 1395. Not even for home consumption ? — To a certain extent ; there is a coarse tea grown for the use of the population throughout the empire. 1396. Have you ever had specimens of those teas brought down to Can- ton ? — Yes ; I have seen specimens, which I was informed were of that coarse description, and which were of a very inferior character. 1397- You stated that you thought that the tea you tasted at Pekin was different from what you got at Canton ; did it appear to you to be of a higher and finer flavour, or otherwise ? It did not suit our taste : we thought it generally inferior. 1398. Did you understand what district that came from ? — It is thirteen years ago ; and if I inquired I have forgotten it. 1399. What do you apprehend to be about the annual consumption of a Chinese family of six persons in tea ? — It is an extremely small quantity, on account of the economizing way in which they use it ; not nearly so much as is consumed by a middling family in England, because we use it in a more prodigal manner. 1400. Do you apprehend that the population of every part of the empire use tea? — I believe almost universally. 1401. Do you apprehend that the produce of the two provinces which you have mentioned is circulated to every part of the empire? — I should think not, on account of the high duties on transit. 140-2. Then a very large part of the population are supplied through the growth of their own neighbourhood? — Of the lower population, of those who cannot afford to pay such a price as arises from distant carriage. 1403. Are the finer teas circulated from the provinces where they are grown to the distant parts of the empire ? — I have no doubt that any portion of the population that can afford to pay for the best tea, wi/lpay for the best, wherever it comes from. 1404. Could you learn whether there was any considerable internal trade in tea carried on ? — The mere trade in the transportation of tea, that Vv^e give rise to, is very considerable ; but I caniiot speak very certainly with regard to internal matters connected with China. 1405. You state that you think the tea consumed by the Chinese is pro- portionably small, from their using the leaves over and over again ; do they X 2 not 164 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: ] Marcli 1830. "ot use it at all times of the day ? — They use it very generally as a drink ; they never drink plain water, I beheve, if they can help it. .7. F. Davis, Esq. j^Qg_ jg j^. ^^^^ ^^^jj. ^^^-^^ ^^ ^^ continually drinking it ;— They drink a good deal of wine at their convivial meetings, and the tea is only introduced as it is among us, at the end. 1407. Is it not the habit of those who have leisure to be sipping tea at almost all hours of the day ? — It is the general beverage of the country ; in fact, water slightly tinged with tea I should call it. I speak of the common people. It is used at all hours of the day : there is a vessel which stands in the principal apartment of the house, and which is available to all the inmates. 1408. Do you not apprehend from that, that the consumption of a family must be very considerable, however weak it is, if it is carried on at all times of the day by all the members of it? — I know that the quantity they use is extremely small. Their figurative expression for 'poverty' is 'weak tea and insipid rice,' which means, that they have nothing to add to their rice, and that they cannot afford to drink their tea strong. 1409. Do you know what the success of the tea-plant of the Brazils has been ? — An utter failure, I have understood. 1410. In the passage of the embassy from Pekin to Canton, do you con- sider that it passed through all the principal tea countries ? — We did not pass through Fokien or Tchekiang. 1411. In those provinces was the culture of tea very universal? — It was extremely partial where we passed ; so much so, that it was rather an event in the embassy to come across a tea plantation. The provinces through which we passed are less devoted to the growth of tea than those provinces, Fokien and Tchekiang, through which we did not pass. 1412. Could any trader in the country, in your opinion, obtain tea upon better terms than the Company ? — Certainly not ; it arises from the pre-elec- tion or first choice which the large capital and regular trade of the Company has always hitherto secured them. 1413. You have spoken of the anti-commercial spirit which exists in China ; is that the spirit of the government, or of the people ? — It is the spirit of the government, founded upon those books which are the basis of their political institutions. 1414. It has been stated to the Committee, that the losses sustained by fire by American merchants at Canton have been made up to the persons suffer- ing ; do you know in what manner they were made good, or out of what fund? — If they were made good at all, it was in a very few partial and indi- vidual instances, of which 1 never heard, and at the expense of the Consoo. I believe that the whole benevolence of the Chinese government on the occa- sion evaporated in a few pompous sentences; and I know of many persons who sustained severe loss without anv relief 1415. Could SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 165 1415. Could any European nation, in your opinion, export tea from Can- 1 March 1830. ton to Europe at a lower rate of freight than is paid by the East-India Com- pany, or on lower terms generally ? — I believe the evidence has gone to show '^ ^- DavM, Esq. that. I am not aware of the freight paid by the Dutch; but I believe the superior class of shipping employed by the Company entails on them a higher rate of freight. 1416. Are you of opinion that the East-India Company could obtain teas at a cheaper rate, if they paid for them in dollars instead of woollens and other British manufactures, and be thereby enabled to afford a supply of teas in England at a cheaper rate ? — Certainly ; the Chinese would sell tea cheaper for dollars to us, for the same reason that they do to Americans. 1417. Have the East- India Company imported any furs into China? — Yes, they have. 1418. To what extent ? — To a considerable extent, in some seasons. 1419. Have the Americans imported furs ? — They have also imported furs. 1420. To a large extent? — To a considerable extent, which will appear in the Report on the table of the Committee. 1421. Is it generally supposed at Canton that tea deteriorates very much in keeping? — I have heard some Chinese say that it is better for keeping, if properly stopped up. 1422. Is there any difference in price between fresh and old teas ? — The Company pay less for the old teas that they purchase than for the new. I cannot speak so certainly as to Americans. The Company pay less, for this reason, that they are the teas which were rejected as not of contract quality, and therefore, being taken as inferior teas, of course a less price is paid for them. 1423. Is there any considerable quantity of ginseng imported by the Com- pany to Canton ? — It is exclusively the produce of some districts in North America, and introduced by the Americans, but held by the Chinese at a very low estimation, compared with what they themselves procure in Tartary, and which is a monopoly of the Emperor. 1424. Is there any ginseng grown in any of the territories belonging to the Company ? — I am not aware of it ; it is a wild plant. 1425. You stated it as an advantage belonging to the large ships employed by the Company, that none of them have been lost; and you stated that the risk of insurance was as nothing to 400 ; are you aware whether any of the large ships have been lost by shipwreck and fire during the last ten years ? — I confine my assertion to homeward-bound ships. 1426. Do you know any instance where an American ship homeward- bound was lost during that time? — Not to my knowledge. 1427. You have stated that the Company's ships are independent almost of convoy in time of war ; did you ever know a fleet leave Canton without aeon- 166 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 1 March 1830 a convoy in time of war? — My assertion was given comparatively; that if they had been a different class of shipping, they would have required a larger J. F. Davis, Esq. convoy. 1428. Are you aware whether it was known at the time Commodore Dance left Canton that war had been declared, or not ? — I have heard there was a small frigate with them; but it occurred before I entered the service. 1429. Are you aware that there was an officer of the navy on board Commodore Dance's ship at the time that action took place, and that he was supposed to have contributed so much to the defence that the India Company made him a present of £500 and a sword ? — He could not have contributed to it by supplying the guns and the men with which the ships were provided ; he might have contributed merely by his advice, in directing those capabilities which the ships already possessed ; but I am not aware as to the fact referred to, 1430. Are you aware what number of hands navigate a Company's ship for every 100 tons, and what number navigate, in ordinary circum- stances, a ship of 400 or 500 tons ? — I believe it is in some general propor- tion of ten men to every 100 tons ; and I have heard that assumed generally as the proportion in all shipping. 1431. Are you aware that four men to 100 tons is the average complement for the American ships and the ships in the private trade ? — I am not aware of that. 1432. You stated in your former evidence that the tea-plant took two or three years to produce, and that in the mean time tea would be very scarce ? — I stated that the circumstance of the tea-plant requiring a certain time to come to maturity, was a circumstance which made it highly desirable that the annual demand for teas should be generally pretty uniform. 1433. Can you inform the Committee whether the practice of taking off buds and leaves from the plant brings on a premature destruction of the plant? — I am not aware of that. It is done probably at times and seasons which are calculated to obviate such an effect. 1434. You were understood to state, that in consequence of the tea-plant taking a certain number of years to produce, it required a peculiar sort of demand, and that the supply would not be produced unless the regular demand were continued ?— I meant to state to this effect, that tea is a product which could not be grown in exact accordance to a fluctuating annual demand, because it cannot be produced like a crop of wheat, for instance; and that, therefore, in order to keep up the average quality of the produce, it was desirable that the demand should be as little fluctuating f iom year to year as possible. 1435. Are you aware that coffee and pepper, which take three or four years to produce, have come down in price under the varying demand which SELECT COMMITTEE ok the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 167 which has taken place? — I know nothing about the produce of these 1^.1, jooq articles. 1 1'36 You have stated that the last consignment of woollens is expected -/• F- Davis, Esq. to yield a profit; is that the consignment of the year 1827-8, or 1828-9? — It is the consignment of the year 1828-9. 1437. To what circumstance do you consider it owing that this consign- ment will yield a profit, whereas for the last few years you have represented the woollen trade as a losing concern ? — It will arise from the very great fall in the invoice cost. 1438. Has there been any rise of price or any increased demand in China for woollens?- — None to my knowledge ; rather the reverse. 1439. At what period do you consider that the woollen trade began to be a losing concern to the Company? — It was in some measure since the Ame- rican competition. 1440. It appears by the papers laid before the House, that in 1809, and up to 1813 and 1814, the export of woollens amounted to 260,000 pieces; that in the year 1815 they had fallen to l6l,000 pieces; and that in 1827 they amounted only to 123,000 pieces ; will you explain what you consider to have been the cause of that decline F — The Company before endured a greater loss, and a loss which they did not feel justified in continuing to endure. 1441. Do you imagine that when the Americans entered into the woollen trade, and as you say, drove the Company from the trade by their competi- tion, that they sustained a loss ? — I understand that they made use of the woollens merely as a remittance from Liverpool ; that direct from America they preferred taking dollars. I have understood, that from the circum- stance of the American ports being to the leeward of the trade wind, a ship is as long going direct from America as by touching first at Liverpool ; and accordingly they found it convenient, being at Liverpool, to take woollens (though they might lose by them to a certain extent) as a remittance. 1442. Do you conceive that the Americans did lose by the export of woollens to China ? — I have heard that they have lost on particular articles of woollens. I believe the American importation of woollens into Canton has never reached one-fourth of the Company's importation. I was asked in my last evidence whether, if it could be proved that the Americans made twenty or thirty per cent, on some articles of importation on which the Com- pany lost, it did not go to show that they had some superior mode of intro- ducing the goods : now, I believe, that they have not generally made any such profits ; and I should say, that it is contradicted by the fact of their not having increased their importations. If they had made twenty or thirty per cent, they would have increased their importations ; and I infer, from their not having increased them, that those large profits were made only in a very few individual instances, and that where they tioere made, it was by evading the port charges. 1443. Did 168 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 1 March 1830. 1443. Did you never hear that the losses on the American trade were con- fined almost entirely to the return voyages to America ? — Yes ; because the J. t. Davis, Esq. proportion of specie which the Americans have introduced at Canton has been overwhelming when compared with tlie amount of their woollen im- portations ; in the proportion of five or six to one. 1444. The question refers to the trade carried on by Americans from Liverpool to Canton, and back to America ; did you never hear that the losses incurred upon those voyages fell almost entirely upon the return cargo ? — I cannot speak to that. 1445. Can you state the amount of the Company's investment in woollens, which you say is now profitable ? — The returns show it to be about £800,U00. 144(5. Do you consider that, at the present prices of woollens in England, the hnportation of woollens into China is likely to be profitable ? — I under- stand that the last importation of the Company will yield a profit upon the whole, in consequence of the invoice price being lower in England. 1447. Are you aware whether there has been, recently, any increased de- mand in China for cotton-yarns? — I am not aware of it. My experience goes to prove the importation of cotton-yarn to have been unsuccessful ; but I have not been in China since the latter end of 1828. 1448. Have you seen an article in the Canton Register of the 3d Decem- ber 1828, stating that there has been a great rise in the demand for cotton- yarns, and particularly from a new quarter, from the northern provinces of China ? — I do not remember having seen that. 1449. Should you consider that the Canton Register is authority upon these commercial subjects ? — To a certain extent it is. 1450. Is it as good an authority as price-currents generally are ? — Possibly it may be. 1451. You stated that one of the great objections to the consumption of woollen goods in China was, the distance and the expense of transit? — Their being suited to the consumption of the northern provinces to which we have no access. 1452. Can you state the mode in which the woollens of Saxony are intro- duced into China? — I have heard of some small quantity of J5r;V/i/2 woollens being imported thi^ough Russia, but I am not sure of it. 1453. Have you heard that a large quantity of Saxony woollens are im- ported through R ussia ? — No, I am not aware of that. 1454. If that should prove to be the fact, is not the transit by that mode infinitely more expensive, and longer in point of duration, than any internal transporting which can interfere, on the ground of expense, with the con- sumption of British woollens imported into Canton ? — The demand must be greater in the cold provinces for such commodities. 1455. Taking SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 169 1455. Taking the place of consumption to be the northern and the 1 March 1830. colder provinces of the empire, is not the transport from Russia over- , : land infinitely more expensive and more distant than the mode of communi- * ^^"^^^■> ^^^1- cation which we have by Canton ? — No ; I am not aware of there being those heavy transit duties levied in that direction that are levied through the provinces of China. 1456. Do you conceive that the transit duty from Canton to the northern provinces would be sufficient to counterbalance the whole waste of time, and the expense of land-carriage across the continent of Asia ? — I think it pos- sible ; but the whole question is speculative, and cannot easily be brought to a calculation. 1457. There is a letter of the supercargoes, referred to in the Report of the Committee in 1821, in which they state that the American trade in woollens was interfering very much with the Company's trade : has it of late years interfered much? — 1 believe that they have interfered more or less ; but the American trade in woollens has not increased lately. 1458. Do you believe it has made the trade of the Company more losing ? — It entailed a fall in the price of our woollens, and its depressing effect must have continued. 1459. You state that the quantity of woollens imported by Americans has not increased ; have you any knowledge on that subject? — My knowledge is partly derived from the printed report, and from the latest return of the trade at Canton, which makes the whole exports and the whole imports, each of them, only about 6,500,000 dollars. 1460. You took your information, then, from the papers which have been laid before Parliament ? — And from papers which I obtained from the India- House — the latest return from Canton. 1461. Do you know the quantity of hardware imported into Canton by the Company ? — They made an attempt, some years ago, to introduce cutlery and hardware ; but the articles were unsuited to Chinese use: they did not know what to do with them. 1462. With respect to iron, cast and wrought, is there much importation of that into China ? — We send about 1,800 tons of iron per annum. 1463. Is that a profitable investment? — Yes; it generally yields a small profit : there is a duty charged by the Chinese of about 5s. lOd. a cwt. on iron. 1464. Is there any demand for quicksilver ? — A very limited demand. I believe it is partly introduced by the officers of the Company's ships. 1465. Did not the Austrians endeavour to establish a trade with China ? — I have not seen an Austrian ship there, I believe, since my residence in the country. 1466. In your former examination you stated that the country trade had derived very important advantage and assistance from the Company's Factory, Y inasmuch 170 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 1 March 1830. inasmuch as when there was an attack made by the Chinese upon the privi- ~ r leges and trade of" foreigners generally, in the year 1S14, the Company then avis, '"' -^'"'• out that the Cape of Good Hope was an intermediate port : and I asked at what time of the year the siiip left Canton, autl it appeared that it was the contrary monsoon to come down the Cliina seas, and I said yes; that Captain Balsam, of tiie Lady Flora, perhaps had come round Cape Horn, and therefore the Cape of Good Hope was an intermediate port. 2082. What was the decision ? — They decided against the ship. The ship was seized and her cargo also ; but they gave bond, and it was about three years afterwards decided by the King in council, and the ship was liberated again. 2083. Was the cargo allowed to be sold at the Cape of Good Hope? — It was. 2084. Have you ever purchased gunpowder tea at Canton to be sold at Pe- nang ? — Yes. 2085. What did you sell that tea for at Penang ? — About 76 Spanish dol- lars per pecu!. 2086. Was a profit realized by you upon that sale of tea ? — I generally used to make about 15 per cent. 2087. Can you state the price of tea of similar quality at the Cape of Good Hope ? — The price of gunpowder tea at the Cape of Good Hope was about six dollars, or nine shillings per pound. Besides the government duty of 10 per cent, the Company pay about five or six per cent, for the auction duties at the Cape. They oblige them to sell all by auction, therefore they collect the duties upon the auction sales. 2088. Then the whole duties paid upon the sale of tea would be IG per cent. ? — That is paid by the Company. 2089. Can you tell what the duties are paid at Penang? — Upon tea I can- not say. I think the people who purchased from me always paid the duty themselves. I believe it is very trifling. 2090. It is not so much at Penang as at the Cape of Good Hope, is it? — Perhaps not so mucii. 10 per cent, is but very small upon tea. 2091. Is not tea a very common beverage in China? — Yes, the black tea is a very common beverage. Every Chinese house you go into, there is the tea always on a sideboard, as a beverage, in the teapot, and you may help yourself to a glass of tea at any time you please ; it is always in the room. 2092. Do they drink it without any admixture ? — They sometimes have a little sugar, and sometimes not ; there are a great many drink it without any sugar. 2093. Do the Chinese drink green tea ?— I think not. 2094. Do 214 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 4 March 1830. 2094. Do the neighbouring nations ? — I think not. I think they generally ,^ ; drink black tea. 2095. Supposing the trade between England and Cliina were more com- pletely free, do you imagine that the Company would, under the present state of things, be able to carry on their trade? — They might carry it on, but I believe with a loss. I mean so far as regards their present establishments. If their establishments were to be as great as they are at present, there must be a loss. 2096. Could they continue to pay the present amount of freight that they pay between England and China? — No, I do not think they could. 2097. What is the amount of freight? — I cannot say exactly what the freiglits are, but 1 know they are much greater than any free-traders can possibly get. 209s. What is the present amount of freight between England and Cal- cutta ? — About £4 to £4. 10s. a ton, out and home, with what we call dead weight ; heavy goods and light goods. The average of £4 out and £4 home, is the general rate of freight. 2099. Do you happen to know the rate of freight paid by the Company in a voyage from England to Canton ? — I do not know. 2100. What would be the rate of insurance upon a ship from England to Calcutta ? — I think about three to three and a half per cent. 2101. You have stated that you live at Wapping, what kind of life are you now in? — A sail-maker, ship-chandler, and provisioner. 2102. Have you ever shipped any goods to India lately ? — No. 2103. From what source is your knowledge of this freight derived ? — I am every day upon the Royal Exchange. 2104. You have stated that you were at the Cape from 1821 to 1828, had you a partner there ? — Yes. 2105. What was his name ? — Monteith. 2106. What did you deal in principally there? — In India goods princi- pally ; we had two brigs that traded between Calcutta and the Cape with India goods. 2107. You have giventhe Committee information as to the China trade between the years I8I7 and 1819; have you had any knowledge of the China trade personally subsequently to the year 1819"- — No; I knew very little about it, except from having seen persons coming past that I have asked questions of, but I had no personal knowledge since 1819. 2108. Do you know Mr. John Bagshaw, formerly of Calcutta ? — Yes. 2109. Was he a consigner of goods to your house ? — No, he was not. 2110. You had no goods in the hands of yourself and your partner belong- ing to Mr. Bagshaw at any time, had you ? — No. 2111. Had SELECT COMMITTEE oi- the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 215 2111. Had you any dealings with Mr. Bagshaw ? — No. 4 Marcli 1830. 2112. With respect to the tea which you saw at the Cape coming from . 7T~ ihii England, what year was that in? — I thinlc it was in 1826, but I am not cer- tain as to that point. 2113. By what ship did it arrive? — I cannot say, but it was consigned to Messrs. Borradaile, Thompson, and Pillans, at the Cape. 2114. Do you know the quantity of tea ? — I cannot say the quantity, but I should say twenty chests, or something of that kind, it was but a small quantity. 2115. Had you any means of seeing the quality? — No, I had not. 2116. And you have no knowledge what it sold for? — No, I had not the least. 2117. Was not the importation from England of the tea to which you have referred, because of its being of a superior quality to that which usually came from Ciiina? — I did not know the cause : they expected they could import it from England, and sell it at the Cape cheaper than what the Com- pany did. 2118. The quality being the same? — The quality being the same. 2119. Do not you know that the usual mode of navigating the country ships is without any Europeans on board, except the captain and the officers? — Both my voyages to China we had two Europeans among the sea-cunnies. 2120. Were they Europeans or half-caste ? — They gave themselves out as Europeans, and I believe they were. 2121. Were not the crew all Lascars ? — All Lascars. 2122. What sized vessel do you consider most convenient for carrying on the Canton trade ? — At that time I think vessels of 600 or 7OO tons were > the best for that. 2123. You say at that time; has your opinion varied since that time? — No, 1 have not any opinion different from what I had at that tiaie. I have been told that they do navigate now with smaller ships than they used to do; but my reason for having a larger ship was, that the duties being nearly the same in some things, we reckoned that the expenses were lessened by having them in large ships. 2124. Is there any other duty but the cumshaw which is the same.^ — I believe nothing but the cumshaw. , &. 2125. To whom did that vessel belong ? — The agents were Alexander and Co. ; she belonged to me and a house at Liverpool. 2126. In Canton did you do your own business, or was it done by a coun- try agent there ? — The first voyage I consigned my ship to the American consul, a Mr. Wilcox ; but I foimd the business so very easily done, that I transacted my own business afterwards. 2127. Do Mr. J oh) A ken. 216 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 4 March 1830. 2127. Do you consider that you could do your business there to the same advantage as it was done by the resident agent ? — Equally so. 2128. Did that arise from your own knowledge of the place, or do you suppose that any captain coming there for the first time would do his business there as easily ? — I think equally so. 2129. How came you to select an American house ; had you any reason for not taking any of the English houses of agency ? — There was no English house there. There were Englishmen, but they were under the foreign flag: no Englishman is allowed to remain at Canton. 2130. Do you mean to say there were no English houses of agency esta- blished at Canton ? — None ; they are not permitted by the Company. 2131. Were there not English houses acting under foreign flags ? — Yes. 2132. Houses of respectability ? — Houses of respectability. 2133. And doing considerable business? — Doing a great deal of business. 2134. Was Mr. Davison there at that time, and doing a great deal of business ? — Yes, I knew both the Davisons. 2135. Do you consider tliat you bought your teas as advantageously as the Company's Factory bought them ? — I should think not. I think the Company could purchase their teas cheaper than we could, because they had greater facilities. The Select Committee is there the whole year, and they certainly can purchase their tea cheaper, because they take such large quantities. 2136. So that you think the Company, in consequence of their being such large dealers, can command the article at better prices than individuals ? — I think they can. 2137. Does not sometimes the fact of your wanting large quantities tend to enhance the price to the buyer ? — No ; I cannot say that it does ; there generally is a price put upon it after it comes into the Hong, which they do not deviate from. But the Company, I believe, barter a good deal 5 I have been informed so by the supercargoes. 2138. Do you think the teas are bought upon better terms by being con- tracted for the year before ? — I should think so. 2139. You think that the contracting is a better system with the Chinese than buying upon the spot ? — I should think it is, 2140. Do you think the Company get a better quality of tea than the free-traders ? — I think not. I have had my information upon that point from the American supercargoes ; and Mr. Wilcox, who was a very well- informed man, told me that he could buy teas of as good quality as any of the Company ; he has been frequently there in the Company's stores, when they have been tasting the teas, and he declared to me that he could buy as good teas, and that he had sent to America teas equally us good as tlie Company's : SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 217 Company's: but what terms the Company have jjurchased their tea upon, 4 March 18:30. I am not informed. 2141. Is that speaking of tea generally, or black tea or green tea? — Of ^^' •J'^h^ ^^«n- tea generally. But the free traders would have a great advantage over the Company, which would more than compensate, I think, by coming cheaper, not having such a large establishment, and having their ships at a less freight. The Company's establishment there is immense, and is a very heavy expense, which the free trader would not have ; and I think the free trader could come into the market and dispose of all his teas in Europe at a cheaper rate than the Company could. 2142. Do you consider that, as far as concerns the mere dealing with the Chinese, the Company can do it better than individual merchants can do it? — I think they can, under the present system. 2143. Do the Factory, upon the whole, rather impede the private trade, or do they protect and encourage it? — They do neither the one nor the other. They take care that you do not take any more tea from China than your license allows you. You are obliged to report to the chief supercargo the cargo that you bring to China, and also what you take away ; and if we do any thing at all derogatory to their directions, or the instructions we receive, they will foreclose the bonds which we are under at Calcutta, which I think is two lacks ; a lack for the captain and a lack for the merchant. 2144. Are they at all vexatious in their interference with you ?— Not the least ; they are very liberal ; they behave exceedingly well to all the country captains. 2145. You do not consider them as going out of their way to molest you ? — Not at all. 2146. From your experience of the trade of those seas, do you think that if the China trade were entirely thrown open, branches of trade would not spring up which are now kept under by the monopoly ? — There is not the least doubt of it. In all the coast of Cochin China I have turned down with the Exmouth with a foul wind, and I have turned into several fine harbours all the way along the coast ; we turned into six or seven different harbours along the coast, and I am sure there might be a great trade carried on if those ports were open : and not only that, but with the great islands of Japan, which we have no communication with whatever. I have often thought, that if an embassy was sent to Japan, and a favourable result ensued, there would be no doubt an immense trade ; for those people are now emerging to civilization, and I have often thought that a very great trade might be carried on there. If an English whaler, by accident, be cast away there, they use them very ill, and murder them generally; but the Dutch carry on a great trade there from Batavia, 2147. When you speak of the monopoly being an impediment, do you 2 E mean 218 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 4 March 1830. mean the restrictions which now exist by law to the free trade in those seas? -, , , , — That is what I mean. Mr. John Aken. ^ . . , , 2148. Do not you think there might be considerable trade with the Philip- pine Islands ? — A great trade might be carried on with the Phihppine Islands and the coast of Borneo. 2149. Do not you think that the ingenuity arising from a free exertion of private interest frequently starts means of trade to merchants which were unknown before ? — Yes, which had no existence before : no doubt of it ; a great deal might be done if the trade were open. > 2150. Is there any trade at present between Mexico and Canton? — Not from Mexico, that I know of; but there is a great trade carried on by the Americans from the north-west coast of America to Canton. 2151. Do you know any thing of that trade ? — Yes ; both the voyages that I was in China several small vessels came there, from 250 to 350 tons, and they had generally furs and some fine oil, which they sold at Canton, and purchased cargoes and went home to America. 2152. Do you know from what part of America they came ? — From Nootka Sound and Cook's Inlet. 2153. Is that trade at present entirely confined to the Americans ? — Entirely, because an English vessel cannot go to Canton at all ; that was one of the greatest grievances that I saw. 2154. Do not you think that English shipping would, if that trade were open, have the same advantage with the Americans in carrying on the north-west trade with China? — Yes ; no doubt about it. 2155. Did you understand that to be a very profitable trade to the Ame- ricans? — Yes, very profitable. Several gentlemen that were embarked in the business said it was a very profitable one. 2156. Do you know any thing of a trade between South America and Canton, from Valparaiso and Buenos Ayres ? — No, I do not. There is a trade from Manilla to Canton ; but they seldom go to Canton, they generally stop at Macao. 2157. Was the Company's Factory any protection to you in carrying on the trade with the Chinese ? — Not the least. If the Hong merchants had been guilty of any fraud, or any thing of that kind, I believe the supercargoes would take it up and assist me in that particular, and perhaps interfere with the Viceroy. 2158. Do you know of any instance in which the private trade derived any benefit from that sort of intervention ? — No, I do not know of any. 2159. Did you ever hear that the Americans or Europeans trading to China derived any protection from the Company's Factory i* — Not the least. 21(J0. Did you ever know of any case occurring, such as you have alluded to, with regard to a Hong merchant, which required such an inter- ference ? SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 219 ference? — I believe there has been such a thing, but not in my time ; per- 4 March 1830. haps one case may happen in twenty-four years, but I beheve it is of very rare occurrence. ' ^^^- •'''/"' Aken. 2161. You have stated that when you were at Canton there were several Englishmen carrying on trade there as agents under foreign flags ; will you state what was the firm of the house in which Mr. Davison was? — Davison & Co. 2162. Under what flag did they do business ? — I cannot say whether it was Danish or Prussian. 2163. What other English houses were there there ? — There was Mag- niac's house ; I think they were under the Danish flag. I think those were the only two English houses. 2lG4<. Do those English houses do a great deal of business ? — A great deal. 2165. Was any of it with Europe, or was it principally confined to the country trade ? — Thei'e was both. 2166. Do you know whether any of the partners of those houses are now in England ? — I do not know. 2167. Suppose you had an opportunity of forming your own design for an adventure to China, and being supplied with means, selected such a cargo as you thought suitable for export, and obtained in return a cargo of tea, do you think you could obtain a more favourable result than the Company now does ? — I think I could have a more favourable result, because I can sail my ship cheaper, and I have no incumbrance in China, therefore I could sell my cargo equally as well as they could. I could purchase my teas, perhaps, not quite so well, but I could sell it in England cheaper a great deal than what they could. 21 68. Would the difference be great in degree between your result and the result the Company now obtains?— I should imagine I could make ten per cent, more than the Company now does. 2169. Do you know now what the profit is which the Company makes? — The Company make, I believe, a hundred per cent. 2170. Then do you think that you could make upon an adventure more than a hundred per cent, profit ? — No; because if the free trade was open, we should have tea cheaper, and the prices would be much less. 2171. Did you not, in the answer you have given, mean to compare your adventure with an adventure by the Company, in case the trade w^as open ? — Yes, in case the trade was open ; not at present ; but if the trade was open, I am certain that I could bring that commodity here, and sell it cheaper than the Company could. 2172. Supposing you obtained permission to send a ship in the present state of things from this country to China, what profit do you imagine, with 2 E 2 the Mr. John Aken. 220 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 4 March 1830. the present prices of tea in the market here, you would reaUze upon that voyage? — That would be a thing that I could not estimate. 2173. How do you calculate that the Company gain a hundred per cent, profit? — From what I have seen of teas sold at the Cape of Good Hope ; and I know very nearly, though not exactly, what they give for them in China, according to what I gave for them myself: they may get them a shade lower, but it is a trifle. Sly*. Comparing the prices at the India sales with the prime cost at Canton, should you say that they get one hundred per cent, clear profit, after deducting the charges ? — I have no doubt of it. 2175. What, in your opinion, would be the difference in the expense of freight between a Company's ship and such a one as you should think suited to the China trade ? — The difference would at least be forty per cent. ; I could fit my ship out at least forty per cent, cheaper than the Company do at present. 2176. Then, if the sailing of a ship in the Company's service cost £14 per ton, it would cost you but £10? — Yes. 2177- Is not your assertion, that you could sell cheaper than the Com- pany, founded upon your belief that they make a hundred per cent. ? — Yes, it is. 2178. In the sort of adventure that has been spoken of, that is of going out to China for a cargo of teas, is there any branch of that adventure in which you think you would have an advantage over the Company, excepting in the article of freight? — No, only in the article of freight, I should think ; but I am not acquainted exactly with what the Company take from this country to China ; they take lead, broadcloths, and different sorts of woollens ; but it is quite a secret in Canton, we know very little about it. 2179. You have already stated, that you think the Company could deal with the Chinese upon better terms than you could, you think they would not also provide their money there upon better terms than you would ? — No, I do not think they would, because you can draw bills upon any re- spectable merchant living in London ; the Chinese would take them with the greatest ease. In fact, the house of Baring & Co. in London was drawn upon by the Americans on as good terms; at least tlie supercargoes told me so. 2180. Do not you think the private trader would discover many articles that would suit the market there, if he was left at perfect liberty, whicli the Company never dream of? — Certainly, a great many things which the Com- pany never think of. 2181. Do not you think the opening the trade would have the effect of extending the list of commodities in wiiich the trade is carried on ? — Yes. 2182. Do you know any reason why the supercargoes at Canton could not find out those articles ? — 1 cannot say why they did not do it. 2183. Have SELECT COMiMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 221 2183. Have not they, residing tiiere, and having persons in their employ- 4- March 1830. ment, the very best means of finding out the articles adapted to the Chinese market r— Certainly. ^^^'■- •^'''"' ^^"*' 2184. Although the Company's supercargoes are constantly residing there, do you think it probable that the servants of the Company would be as anxious to push their trade as individuals who are trading for their own account ? — No, I do not believe it ; I think individuals upon their own account would push the trade much more than it is at present. 2185. Are not you aware that the Company's captains and officers are per- mitted to trade as merchants to China ? — Yes. 2186. Why do you suppose individual merciiants would be more active than those captains and officers who are merchants ? — We can only draw an infer- ence from what has happened from opening the trade with Calcutta ; there is an immense trade now carried on with Calcutta, compared with what there was before the trade was opened. 2187- Is it in the power of any Englishman to go into China without leave of the Chinese authorities? — Canton is the only port that is open to trade at all to any person. 2188. Do you consider it possible for Great Britain to permit Englishmen to go into the interior of China? — 1 have taken Europeans, I have taken a French bishop and his suite, who went into the interior of China; I landed them at Tvlacao, and they were to go into the interior as missionaries. 2189. Are not the Company's servants, who deal in China on their own account, obliged to confine themselves to the precise voyage which is pointed out by their masters ; that is to say, that they can only go where their masters send the vessels to ? — Yes. 2190. Have not the private trade, on the other hand, the power of select- ing all the different markets, both of the East, and of Europe, and of Ame- rica ? — Yes. 2191. Must not that unlimited range give them a great advantage over the Company's servants, whose trade is so restricted ? — Certainly. 2192. Did not your answer relate to the trade in China alone ? — In China alone. 2193. Y'^ou speak of there being six or seven ports in Cochin China which are not now frequented ; how does the Company's monopoly prevent those ports and places being traded with ? — I do not know. The Company has nothing to do with that, it is an arrangement by the Chinese; they do not suffer any other port to be opened but Canton. 21 94-. Did you mean to say, that those ports to which you alluded are not traded with in consequence of the monopoly of the Company ? — No, the Chinese prevent it themselves, and the Cochin Chinese. The whole range of the coast, ?s far as Siam, is under the Chinese government, but only nominally so. 2195. Upon 222 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 4 Murcli 1830. 2195. Upon the occasion when you sailed along those harbours in Cochin ~~ China, do you think the native authorities would have permitted you to enter Mr. John Aken. jf jj^g Company had given you leave?— That I do not know ; I did not like to try that. 2196. Are there not various products of the Eastern Archipelago which are fitted alone for the China market? — There are : there is trepan, which the French call beche-de-mer, and birds'-nests. 2197. Are you aware whether the trade carried on with the Eastern Archi- pelago in the articles you have alluded to is a considerable trade or not? — It would be very considerable, to small vessels particularly. They could take in those articles I have mentioned, also sandal-wood, which is taken to the Chinese market, and is a very profitable thing. 2198. Are not the country ships of India allowed to trade with Cochin China from Calcutta, so fa- as the English government are concerned ? — At that time they were not: our license allowed us only to go to Canton, and we cannot trade with any other ports, except what our license allowed. 2199. Do not you know that a license could be obtained in Calcutta to trade to Cochin China? — I do not know. 2200. Is a license ever drawn out for a voyage without specifying a parti- cular port ? — No. 2201. Do you think you could not have obtained a license empowering you to enter any port upon the Cochin Chinese coast ? — I have always been given to understand so. 2202. Did you ever get a license to touch and trade at various ports ? — No, the license runs thus: to go to Canton, and to touch and trade at any intermediate port between there and Calcutta, outward and homeward ; but that is only to the country vessels. 2203. Would that license include the ports on the coast of Cochin China? — Yes ; but I have always understood that we could not trade with any port of Cochin China. 2204. That is, the Chinese government will not suffer it ? — Yes. 2205. Are not you aware that the country ships might clear out for any part of Cochin China, if the local government would permit it? — I am not aware of that. 2206. Do not you think there would be much more probability of over- coming the prejudices of the Chinese in regard to intercourse with Europeans at other ports than Canton, if the monopoly of the East-India Company were done away with ? — No. If the monopoly of the East-India Company were done away with, it would make no difference whatever, I believe, or alter the Chinese policy at all. 2207. Do not you think that the enterprise of private traders would induce them to go to other ports, and that the Chinese would see the advantage of taking SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 223 taking their goods and trading with them ? — They might in the course of 4 March 1830. time, but at present I should think not. An embassy sent into China for the ' purpose might, perhaps, do away that prejudice, but not any thing else done ^^r- -Mn Aken. by individuals. 2208. Do not you think the Chinese would see the interest they had in selling their goods ? — No doubt they do see it, they know it very well ; but the government is so very arbitrary that they cannot do it. The best informed Chinese that I ever met with, said, that if all the ports in China were thrown open, it would be a great advantage to the Chinese. 2209. Have you heard that opinion generally expressed by the intelligent Chinese ? — I have. 2210. As the government seems to possess so little power to put down smuggling, is it not to be supposed that they would not be able greatly to control what is done at those ports ? — I believe that is the reason for allowing Canton to be the only port that is open. 2211. What do you think would become of any vessel that went into any port but Canton ? — They would imprison the crew, and take the ship away from them. 2212. Although it is a great advantage to the Chinese to trade, you think they would lay hold of the crew of any vessel that went to seek trade there? — I have no doubt of it, because it is prohibited. 2213. Has any instance come to your knowledge of any European vessel having gone to any other port than Canton ? — None, except Macao. 2214. Have you been much in the way of hearing of instances of the sort, if they had occurred ? — I have been in that part of the world upwards of thirty years ago, but I never knew an instance of a ship trading to any other port over which the Chinese had any control whatever. 2215. Might not such a thing have taken place without your knowing any thing about it? — I think I must have known it. 2216. Have you met with a number of Chinese junks in the course of your voyages there ? — Yes. 2217. Have you ever had any dealings with any of the people in the junks? — No, I never have ; but those junks now have found their way to Sincapore. There are great quantities of them come there directly from Canton ; and they come, as 1 am told, from some of the ports of Cochin China to Sincapore. 2218. You stated that the port charges at Canton, excepting the cumshaw, were in proportion to the measurement of the vessel : do you then consider that, except in respect of the cumshaw, there would be no difference in the advantage between navigating a small and a large ship, as far as the payment of the port charges are concerned ?— There may be some charges, as far as regards Mr. John Aken. QU EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS. 4 March 1830. regards the linguist or the compradore's fee ; but, generally speaking, I believe there is no difference except in the cumshaw. 2219. You said, that saltpetre was smuggled into China, because it was sold to greater advantage than if sold to the government : do you mean by that, that the Chinese law forbids the sale of saltpetre openly to any person except to the government ?— Yes ; they do not allow it to be sold except to the government. 2220. Do you conceive that if the Chinese trade were entirely free, it would be a beneficial measure to the natives of British India? — I do not know that it would be more beneficial to them than it is at present, but 1 think it would be a great benefit to the United Kingdom. — \ f SECOND REPORT FROM THK SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS ON THE AFFAIRS OF THE EAST-INDIA COMPANY 1830. LIST OF WITNESSES. Lunse, 8° die Martii 1830. Captain Richard Alsager - .- ^#j - ^^ . - . - - - - P- 226 Waller Stevenson Davidson, Esq. i >^ #n . vK l* - - 250 i Martis, 9° die Maitii 1830. Captain Charles Hutchinson i^JWNfti. W''^*X.^M}t^i ^ ''.'^'T'^ . 264- Mr. Charles Everett -i^Ws*^ .tW-vvvvn^^VU>^ S^^^^Ai^ . . 280 Mr. Abraham Dixon - i^j^^^^r-^^r-isJU^A^ W~t?^-l. IL Alsager. ^^^.j.^ 2264. With this facility of imposition, is the Company's mark of any great importance in the Chinese market? — It is a guarantee to any bale that has the mark upon it. 2265. If an imitation can be so easily effected as to impose upon the Cliinese, can the real mark be of any great importance in the Chinese market ? — Experience may prove that they are mistaken in this mark, and they may begin to analyze it. I am speaking now of the early part of the time when they took it for granted that it was the Company's mark. 2266. Have the cases of deception to which you allude been numerous ? — If one or two came under an individual's observation like myself, who had a great deal to attend to, I think they must be numerous. 2267. If they are numerous, what importance can you attach to the Com- pany's mark ? — I myself, as an individual, attach every importance to it, and those who are in the habit of dealing with the Company know it. 2268. You attach importance to it because you are able to distinguish the genuine mark from the forged mark ; but with respect to the Chinese, whom you have stated as being incapable of making that distinction, what im- portance can they attach to the Company's mark ? — They take them all to be the Company's mark, and they are taken up the country with that mark on them. 2269. If they are taken up the country with the forged marks as well as the real marks, is there any importance attached to the real marks ? — I can only say that they are all taken up as real. 2270. Supposing a case occurred in which the Company's mark, either in reality or in imitation, were not upon a bale, would it pass current into the country? — I think it would be opened. 2271. How many pounds of tea do you reckon to be carried by the ton in a large vessel ? — The black tea and the green are different, the green tea being more bulky and lighter ; 900 cwt. I think, of black tea. 2272. What difference is made in the freight in consequence of going to India instead of proceeding direct to China ? — There is generally a deduc- tion of 305. per ton for the circuitous route ; 305. are deducted for the double voyage between the two intermediate ports. 2273. Are the Committee to understand that the Company can send a ship loaded with troops to Madras, and thence to China, for 305. less than sending it direct to China? — Thirty shillings more. 2274. Supposing a ship to sail direct to Calcutta, and another direct to Canton, would there, or not, be any difference in the freight ? — The freight to Calcutta would be less than the freight to Canton, because there are Capt. It. Alan (jar. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 231 are so many harbour charges in Canton ; but what the difference would be I 8 March 1830. could not say. 2^275- Would there be any other difference than the harbour charges ? — I am not aware of any other difference ; they are very heavy. 2276. Do you know the present amount of freiglit to Calcutta ? — I have seen such variety that I can hardly quote any criterion. 2277. You have stated that upon a large ship the harbour charges at Canton would amount to £1 a ton, and upon a smaller ship £2 a ton ; will you state what the items would be ? — The Chinese measure from the centre of the fore-mast to the centre of the mizen-mast, and from outside to outside ; the depth is not mentioned. There is a great space in a large ship between the centre of the fore-mast and the bows ; there is also a large space between the centre of the mizen-mast and the stern, which is not measured, and there is a depth of seventeen feet in the hold, whereas a small ship has only about twelve or thirteen. 2278. The difference then arises from the large ship not being sufficiently measured by the Chinese ? — There is a greater space unmeasured. 2279. You have stated, that there is a great advantage in carrying on the trade in large ships ; supposing that to be the case, why could not the private trader carry on his business in large ships also? — The officers of the large ships are trained up for several years ; they sail in the different grades during their various voyages, till the time they arrive at the command ; they are better capable of undertaking the responsibility and the care of the con- cern than an individual put in there at once would be. 2280. Can you state whether the officers of the Company's ships import teas from India to China ? — They do in their private investments. 2281. What quantity of tea does a captain import? — He is allowed fifty- six tons upon a ship of 1,200 tons. 2282. What is the chief mate allowed? — They are all stated in the book of regulations ; I think 103 is the sum total of the commander and officers. 2283. From whom do the officers of the Company's ships purchase their tea ? — Generally of Hong merchants, if we can get them. 2284. Do you often find difficulty in getting them from the Hong mer- chants ? — Not a great difficulty ; we like that the person who secures our ships should buy our cargo. 2285. Do they often purchase tea from the outside merchants ? — I have never purchased tea from the outside merchants. I have heard that officers have done it sometimes for barter, at great risk, and at great loss in quality. When they have returned to China, the person has not been found that they bought the tea from. 2286. Are all the younger officers competent to the management of that transaction ? — The duty of their office requires too much attention generally for Cnpt. It. Aharier. 232 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 8 March 1830. for them to engage much in trade ; and, as such, generally the commander has paid them a certain sum for their investment. 2287. What does he pay, commonly speaking, for their tonnage? — It varies according to the amount of investment in China, and the difficulty of remitting home, from £20 to £40 a ton. 2288. Has it ever been higher than £40 a ton ? — I have never paid more. 2289. What is the amount of per-centage paid by the Company's officers to the Company ? — I do not know : upon the ton it is about 25 per cent. 2290. Was it not larger formerly than it is now ? — Is was S3 formerly. 2291. When did the reduction take place ? — lam not very competent to speak to the time : I suppose ten years. It was previous to my being a commander. 2292. Can you state the amount of the tea annually exported by the officers' privilege ? — It varies very much ; because an officer that has a large capital cannot afford to invest his capital in tea, because tea embraces but a small sum. 2293. Did you ever know it amount to 2,000,000 of pounds in any one year ? — I cannot answer that. 2294. Have you ever had any bad tea delivered to you ? — I have always dealt with the Hong merchants, and I have never had any bad tea. I have been very fortunate in that respect. A number of my brother officers, that have dealt with the outside merchants, have suffered greatly from having bad tea. 2295. Will you mention an instance in which an officer has had bad tea sold to him by an outside merchant ? — I think I recollect Captain Nairne is one. 2296. In what year was that?— 1822 or 1824, I believe. 2297. Where is the tea so brought by the officers sold ? — At the East- India Company's sales. 2298. How soon after the arrival of any ship is the privileged tea dis- posed of? — At the very first quarterly sale afterwards. 2299. Have you ever known any of the privileged teas refused by the buyers? — None of my own; and, speaking personally, I know of none. I have heard of others, but I cannot speak to individual cases, 2300. You cannot then speak of the extent of it? — No. 2301. Do you consider that privileged tea is of better or worse quality than what is purchased by the Company ? — We are very often glad to take what the Company has rejected, and 1 think the tea is a grade lower. 2302. Does it sell for less in the sales at the India-House? — Sometimes we buy it in smaller boxes, and that is an advantage ; but I think, generally speaking, it fetches rather less than more. 2303. Do SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 233 2303. Do you deal entirely yourselves, or do you deal through the Com- 8 Mardi iwi). pany's Factory in China ? — Entirely ourselves. 2304. Could you state, upon an average or your several voyages, what ' profit the tea so imported by privilege has given? — The last voyage I gained but little or nothing by the tea ; that is, if I reckon the dollar at 5s. The dollar is considered as current at 5s. in Canton, though it is worth only 45. \d. ; but if we make it 5s. home, we consider ourselves fortunate. We sell our outward investments by the dollar at 5s., and then if we get our money home at 5s. we consider ourselves fortunate. This last time I scarcely did that. 2305. If the dollar is worth 45. If/., and you get it home at 5s., is not that getting a profit of nearly 2.5 per cent. ? — Then we reckon the same upon the outward investment upon the dollar when it is not so. 2306. Then, in reality, taking the pound sterling you disburse, and the pound sterling you realize, what is, upun an average, the profit of the privileged trade ? — If it is 10 per cent, upon the money invested, I consider that a very good return indeed. 2307. Have the woollen goods you took out been profitable or not ? — By no means ; I have lost by them. 2308. Were the goods that you lost by the rejected goods of which you spoke? — Some were. 2309. Are the rejected goods of the Company commonly to be bought in London ? — I think they may be. 2310. What is the sort of tea that the Company's officers generally bring over ? — It varies according to the individual's choice. 2311. Is it commonly tea of the lower price, or of the higher price ? — Lately it has been the lower price : some time ago it was rather in the highest priced teas ; but people do not buy the highest priced teas now. 2312. When you say you are content with 10 per cent, profit, what allow- ance do you make for the freight in that ? — If I purchase fi'eight, I reckon that in as charges of merchandize ; if it is my own privilege, I do not reckon it. 2313. How do you reckon it ? — I reckon it in the privileges and allow- ances of the voyage. 2314. So that, even including your privilege of freight, still your voyage does not give you more than 10 per cent. ? — I am speaking of the bringing the tea home. If I speak individually, I have been more fortunate than perhaps I deserve : there are other individuals who have sufiered, and perhaps lost money by it. I should say the average does not admit that. 2315. You mean to say that, according to your judgment, and what you have heard from your brother officers in the same trade, 10 per cent, is as much as is made home, throwing in the freight for nothing? — Yes, I should 2 G think 234 EVIDENCE ON EAST- INDIA AFFAIRS: 8 March 1830. think it was. If I brought forward unfortunate instances, there are several ~^~,j commanders who have gone there four or five voyages, and they are bank- ap. . sagei. j-^pj-g fj.Qj^ having been unfortunate in their trade. I should think that where one man has succeeded, five almost have failed in making that. 2316. Notwithstanding they had a great portion of the freight for nothing? — Yes. 2317. How comes it that the Company, paying a very heavy freight, make a very profitable trade with China ; while their officers, who do their own business, getting the freight for nothing at all, should make it answer so ill ? — We have a large accumulation of goods sometimes in China that we are glad to sell ; and there is a difficulty in remitting our money home. We have more capital, generally, than we can put in our privilege, therefore we are very glad to select those articles in which we can invest the greatest sum. 2318. You have stated that the average freight of ships is from £20 to £23 ; are you aware that there are ships now enr.ployed by the Company receiving £27 a ton ? — I am not aware of it. 2319. You have commanded one of the Company's own ships ? — I have. 2320. How many ships have they ? — Eight. 2321. Are you aware what is the rate of freight per ton, out and home, on the Company's own ships ?— No, I am not aware. 2322. Do you suppose they sail cheaper than they could be contracted for ? — I am not prepared to answer upon that point. 2323. You have stated considerable losses which have been suffered by commanders of those ships ; can you state whether, upon a voyage to China, a commander of a Company's ship is not expected to make from £10,000 to £20,000? — I have heard of such things, I do not believe them ; I had no experience to that extent myself. 232i. Have you never heard that £30,000 have been made ? — I have heard of men speculating in a particular article, by which they were either ruined or made, but I do not consider that a criterion of the general merchant. 232,5. Could you give the Committee any idea of the average of five voyages ? — A double voyage is considered a great advantage, from the cir- cumstance of getting passengers, and turning our capital three times ; and generally speaking, I should say, if a commander were on those voyages to clear £5,000, I think he is a very fortunate man indeed : but I should say there are many that do not make that. 232f). Then you mean to say, that upon the average of the Company's larger ships, as far as you know, the commanders do not make £5,000 a voyage ? — I should think not. We are traders singly upon our own capital, and perhaps we are not very communicative about it j but that is the im- pression upon my mind. 2327. Have SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 235 2327. Have you been from Bombay to China? — I have. 8 March 1830. 2328. What portion of freight are you, as commander, allowed from ^. »~7/^ Bombay to China ? — Two-fifths of the ship. "^ ' ' *"^^ ' 2329. How many tons will that be in a 1,300 ton ship ? — About 500 tons ? 2330. What is the rate of freight per ton you receive upon cotton ? — There is a deduction on the part of the Company of £2 per ton from the privilege allowed to the commander. I have been very glad to get a little freight, if I could, to fill up this privilege ; but, generally speaking, I have lost by the cotton from Bombay to China. 2331. What is the highest freight you ever got per candy ? — Thirty-two rupees. The Bombay rupee is only worth Is. Sd. to 2*. 2332. That is about 64 rupees a ton ? — About that. 2333. That would leave, after the deduction of £2 per ton, £4 per ton profit, which on 500 tons would be £2,000 ? — Yes ; but to get a little freight we are often obliged to buy cotton, so that I have had half freight and half purchases : the latter I have lost by. 2334. Is that every voyage, or only occasionally ?— I lost two voyages out of three. 2335. How do you account for commanders being so very anxious to obtain double voyages when they lose by them ? — There are more opportu- nities of gaining. 2336. Is not a double voyage the first object to be obtained from the court ? — No doubt it is, because it gives you three opportunities instead of one. 2337. But, in your opinion, they are very often attended with loss instead of gain ? — I know it. 2338. You have stated certain advantages which a large ship had in the China trade ; do you consider a 1,200 ton ship more convenient to go up the Canton river than a 500 or 600 ton ship ? — The Company's class of 1,200 ton ships are fully equal ; they are handy and manageable, and I have never known any accident happen to them in going up. I have gone up sometimes without a pilot. 2339. Does not a 600 ton ship load entirely at Whampoa? — She would do it ; but as they have to pass the bar, they often take in their water and provisions below. A large ship could do the same, but it is not prudent to do so. I have known them fill up at Whampoa, with the exception of the stores ; but, generally speaking, they go with a light draught of water, to avoid risk. 2340. Do you consider it any disadvantage in a large ship not being able to load or unload at Whampoa ? — It is very trifling ; I think the difference is not to be mentioned. A ship could, if she chose, take her entire cargo in there. I have gone over that bar, having twenty-five feet water : our ships, 2 G 2 when 230 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 8 Maicli 1830. when they go down, at the utmost draw twenty-one or twenty-two feet, so that there are three feet to spare ; but lest there should be any stoppage, it Oipt. R. Ahager. jg not considered prudent to load till after they have passed the bar. 2341. Since you have been trading to China have you not seen a class of very large country ships at Canton? — I have seen several ships that were afterwards in the Company's employ. 2342. Are you not aware that the practice now is to use smaller ships, and that they now employ 500 to 700 ton ships ? — There are several of the larger ships that have disappeared from the market. ySiS. Are you aware that the Americans had one or two ships of 1000 or 1,200 tons to China for a few voyages? — I recollect one. 2344. Are you not aware that they have also given up that practice ? — I am not aware of that. 2345. Did you never hear in India the reason why the builders and mer- chants in India have reduced the size of ships trading to China r — No, I liave not heard it mentioned. 2346. You do not suppose, then, that it is owing to the large ships being found inconvenient? — I have never heard so. From all I have seen, they like the larger ships; I never heard any objection to them. 2347. Have you any doubt that if they found it more profitable to use larger ships than smaller ships, the use of the larger ships would have con- tinued ? — Whether the demand for produce was the occasion of their being smaller I cannot say. 2348. Would not the demand measure the profits- — I should think every individual is guided a good deal by his own speculations. 2349. If the majority of individuals have abandoned the larger ships for the smaller in this branch of trade, have you any doubt that they found it more profitable to use the smaller? — I can only judge by my own experience; I am speaking of the advantage of the lai'ge ones. 2350. Were you ever on board any of the ships that had been freighted to take teas to North America? — 1 have seen them, but 1 have not been on board of them. 2351. Of what size are they ?— About 500 to COO tons. 2352. Do you know what freight is paid ? — I think that the two last ships were GOO tons, the Lord William Bentinck and the Kennaway : they were taken circuitously, and they returned by way of China. I think they were rated at ten guineas per ton home from China. 2353. Then it appears that the Company are freighting ships at £23 a ton, and the other ships are going at ten guineas? — The breakage and damage is very great in small ships ; £23 are out and home ; ten guineas merely tiom China to America. 2354. Have SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. '2^7 2354. Have you ever seen any return of the amount of breakage aii.l da- ^ Ahn.li \^:H). mage in small ships of 500 or 700 tons, as compared with that of yoin- huircr , ships? — No. In the Waterloo's cargo, that I commanded for fotu- voyages, ('"P'-J^ ■^''"'y''- the average had not been ten chesis a voyage out of about ] 1,000. In a smaller ship I once was an officer, in the old Britannia, and there the damage was very great ; she was a 770 ton ship of the old class ; the damage was from breakage, and the small space that there is to stow the tea cargo in. Tlie less the tea cargo is removed the better j and in our larger ships the tea is placed immediately where it is intended to remain for the voyage. In a small ship the boat comes along side with 500 or 600 chests of tea that must be taken out of the boat ; it is placed upon the deck ready for stowage, and it is fre- quently moved five or six times before it is stowed away. 2355. Then the damage arises from their taking the boat alongside, anil not keeping it there till the cargo is properly stowed?— They must not keep it alongside longer than the day, except at an extra charge. ^35&. What is the ordinary size of the boats that carry them ? — About 500 or 600 chests. 2357. Then one considerable advantage of the large ships is the facility of stowing rapidly the tea taken on board ? — It is very great indeed. 2358. Are not the owners answerable for the damage? — I believe they are. 2359. How does it signify to the Company, if they get the quantity of tea they send home and the owners pay for the damage? — It is advantageous to the Company to have their teas home, and it would be a great loss to the owners. If it exceeds £3,000 the damage comes upon the Company. 2360. Are you aware that in the large ships the damage ever amounts to £3,000 in one cargo? — I never have heard, except by accident. 2361. Have you ever heard of any such proportion of damage in any of the small ships that have brought tea having gone circuitously by New South Wales ? — I have merely heard indiscriminately, that the damage was greater in the two small ships that I spoke of, the Lord William Bentinck and the Kennaway, but I had not the precise quantity. 2362. Why do the Company give £20 or £23 a ton for one ship, when they can get another for ten guineas, and when the damaged tea is paid for by the owners on coming home? — When the Company open tenders for ships, tiie lowest tender is taken, I suppose; if they could afford to sail them lower, they would tender lower. 236s. Are you not aware that that depends upon the conditions offered by the Company as to the equipment, of the number of men, the number of guns, and the quantity of stores? — Certainly, I am aware of that. 236k Is it not the case, that the ships which you have stated to be freighted at £10 from China for the North American colonies, have the advantage 238 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 8 Maicli 1830. advantage of taking what freight they are able to New South Wales, or any intermediate voyage? — I suppose that in their calculations they reckoned up CtipLB. Ahager. ^j^gj. ^.j^gy expected to make in their intermediate voyage, when they made the tender for coming from China. 2365. What proportion of freight do you think a ship would earn on such a voyage ? — I am not prepared to say ; I have not made any calculation that bears upon that. 236G. Would the Company hire a ship to go direct to Canton and come back to America, at the freight which you have stated of £10 a ton, supposing that she gained upon the outward freight ?— I am not aware what the tenders of the Company were. I have now been retired from their service about four years, but 1 believe they have been reduced nearly every year. 2367. Have not also ships bound on such voyages the advantage of freight from North America to England, or any other ports? — No doubt that enters into the calculation, because several of them have brought timber home ; but I cannot speak of that, having no local knowledge of it. 2368. Do not those intermediate freights operate so as to diminish the charge of freight from China to North America? — What calculation the owners make I am not aware ; but, of course, they calculate those advantages when they put in for the lowest tender. 2369. Are they not advantages which enable a ship to be hired at a small rate? — If I could get £2 per ton from America, of course that I should reckon an advantage exclusive of the tender I made to the Com- pany. 2370. Is not any voyage which those ships may make in their return to America entirely a new voyage, and may not a ship returning to England just as well take into her calculation any new voyage she may undertake either to America or elsewhere ? — I think she reckons in every advantage during her voyage, from the time she leaves England till she returns again. 2371. Having made one voyage, is a ship owner entitled to calculate any subsequent profitable voyages which the ship may take, totally unconnected with the voyage in question ? — They may enter into specific agreements to take teas from China to America at so much a ton, and the remainder of their voyage is entirely at their own command. 2372. Are you aware that the Company have three classes of equipment for their ships ; the full equipment, which is called the Company's regular ships; the second equipment, which consists of ships taken up after their voyages are out ; and the third equipment of smaller ships taken up for individual voyages: will you state what constitutes the difierence of those classes as to equipments, first, for instance, in the number of cables and the number of sets of sails? — I will commence with the Waterloo, which was under my command^ she carried thirty-six guns ; there is room for more, but thirty. six Capt. K. Al.tager. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 239 six is the number she carries; in peace she carries 130 men as her comple- ^ March 1830. ment, and five to cover casualties, and 10 marine boys. 2S7S. Are you aware how many she carried in war ? — She was built after the war was concluded. I should think she would carry about the same, unless there were some special service. 2374. Then the Company continue the same number of men and guns in their ships in time of peace as they did in time of war ?— Just the same. 2375. Do the ships carry their guns in the hold ? — It is against all rule and st."ict orders of the Company. 2376. How many men is that per ton ? — One man for every ten tons. 2377. How many suits of sails did you carry? — We have always one quite new, one nearly new, what we call one-third worn, and the other that has been the previous voyage, and is what we call half-worn ; there are three complete suits of the principal sails. 2378. How many cables ? — We have always two new hempen cables every voyage, and we have lately been in the habit of using an iron cable ; there are generally three that have been the previous voyage, and an iron cable, six cables in all. 2379. What number of guns and what number of men do the second class of ships take, those that have gone their voyages and that are taken to go one or two voyages more ? — There have been various reductions, and I am not competent to speak to the extent of them ; but of some that were taken up upon a reduced scale, the 1200 ton ships were reduced to eighty men, and the officers were also reduced, but I cannot say exactly to what extent. 2380. Were not the stores and other equipments reduced in proportion ? — ■ They were ; and there was not that attention to the new equipment. 2381. With respect to the third class of ships, from 400 to 600 tons that they take up, are you aware what proportion of men per ton, and of stores, they bear to those you have stated ? — I am not competent to answer that question. 2382. Are you not aware that they are considerably lower ? — The propor- tion to China, I should think, on the large ships, would require very nearly ten men per 100 tons ; I suppose it would be six men per 100 tons upon some of the smaller ships. 2383. What purpose do you understand is gained by carrying as many men in time of peace as in time of war ? — Our voyages are long, and we are not aware what changes may take place between our sailing and our arriving, and we are at all times ready and prepared for war. 2384. Do you mean that the establishment of an Indiaman is the same now as it was in the year 1815 ? — The same. 2385. Do 240 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 8 Miiicli 1830. 2385. Do you carry the same proportion of ammunition, gunpowder, balls, and so on ? — The same. i' EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 8 March 1830. 2422. Are you aware that the Company's ships have more than men-oC- war? — I should have thought not. 2123. You stated your complement of men to be 135 ; how many of those men should you consider necessary merely for the navigation of the ship, if you had no armament whatever? — T think the management of the sails and yards, and of the navigation generally, requires that number. 2424. A China ship with thirty-six guns and with 130 men : what force should you say a ship of that description would be able to encounter in case of war ; would it encounter a thirty-two gun frigate ? — She ought to be equal to repel an attack. 2425. Would she be more than equal to any privateer ? — Certainly, of the smaller class. 242G. What did you do with any surplus you might have beyond what you invested? — We were very glad to get bills on England. 2427. Is not the Company always ready to take your money ? — Some times the treasury is open, at others not : at some seasons I have known it not open. 2428. What exchange do they give you ? — The current exchange of the day ; the Company's bills are always preferred. 212J). What was the least rate that you took the Company's bills at? — The very last rate I took them at was 46'. 7^- the dollar. 2430. What did the dollar cost you ? — I reckoned it at 5s. in currency. 2431. Is tliat dollar worth 5s.} — No, it is not so; but it is a mode of reckoning it, in tiie same way as we reckon the rupee at half-a-crown when it is not so. But if I present an invoice in India of goods that I bring out, the buyer says, I will give you 8 per cent, or 10 per cent., and he turns the pound sterling into eight rupees, and he calls it a per-centage upon the eight rupees ; whereas, if you want to remit that money home, instead of being 2s. 6d. it is only about Is. Qd. 21-32. What does the dollar actually cost you in London? — It is about 4>. or 4s. Id. 2433. If the dollar being worth 4.s. you get bills of the Company at 4.S. Td. is not that a very profitable return from China? — Yes, but it does not always happen ; the last two voyages I had remittances at 3s. lid. and 4.s. 2434. Has that happened to you more than once ? — It happened to me the last time 1 had remittances fi-om China, in 1828. 2435. Have you not remitted dollars at 6s. ? — No. 2436. What is the highest rate at which you ever knew it ? — I think the highest I ever heard of as an officer was 5s. 10c/., it was at the close of the war. 2437. What Cdpt. Jt. Aluaijn-. SELECT COMMITTEE or the HOUSE OF COMMONS. '21.5 2t37. What has been the rate with rupees? — It has been 2jr. 8J. and 8 March 1830. Is. lOd. 2438. Did you ever invest your money at so low a rate of exchange as you have stated, more than once ? — I did not invest the proceeds ; it was some goods remitted liome by bill, and tliat bill was at 45. : but sooner than remit money at that price, had I been in China, 1 should have preferred running the risk in merchandize. 2439. You have stated that you consider a China ship with 130 men and 36 guns capable of repelling a small French frigate ; are you aware that the Kent Indiaman, fully equipped, with 315 men on board, was taken by a French frigate ? — The Kent was taken, I think, by surprise ; the number of men alluded to were two-thirds military recruits. 2440. What was the size of the Kent ? — 800 tons. 2441. Do you recollect the circumstance of a French frigate and a sloop of war in 1810 attacking four Indiamen and taking two of them? — No. 2442. Would not a greater risk be incurred by individuals sending home their ships when it suited them, instead of a number of vessels returning home together, as is the case under the Company ? — Certainly. 2443. What would be the effect of throwing open the China trade, in your estimation ? — It woidd be attended with very great risk. I could quote one instance that would bear a little upon the question. When I re- turned from India the last voyage, there was one of the siiips that the Com- pany took up for one voyage was sent out to China. Ihe commander was a friend of mine; 1 gave him a letter to one of the Hong merchants, IsJoqua, an intimate friend of mine also : he sent this letter up by his purser ; it was requesting Moqua to befriend this commander and buy his investment : he said he would buy it from him for my sake ; but when the commander came up to Canton he was not in uniform. Moqua said, " Ah ! my fi'iend, how is this you are not in uniform?" "No," said he, " I am not entitled to wear it." " Are not you one of the Company's captains?" " No," he said. " Then," said the Hong merchant, " 1 know Captain Al- sager, but I no can take your cargo." He declined having any thing to do with him on that account. 2444. Do the officers commanding the American trading ships wear the Company's uniform? — They are not entitled to do it. 2445. Do the officers of country ships wear it ? — No. 2446. Do you consider the Chinese desirous of foreign trade ? — I should say decidedly not. 2447. What would be the effect of an increase of smuggling in the event of the trade being thrown open ? — I can hardly say to what extent it might take place. 2448. Is there any limit now to the smuggling that is carried on at Can- ton? 046 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 8 March 1830. ton? — Opium is a smuggled article, but that takes place outside the port of Canton. Cnpt. B. Alsoger. o^^^c^^ jy^ you not think that risk would be incurred with respect to the regular trade in the event of a great increase of the smuggling trade? — I tliink that would lead to riot and disturbance, which would put a stop to the trade altogether. 2450. Do you believe that the Chinese are aware of the nature of the East- India Company ? — I think they have the highest confidence in them, and they think them superior to any other power that they have intercourse with. ^451. Are they aware that they are the governors of the adjacent terri- ritory ? — I think I have heard of their reluctant acknowledgment that they are aware of their vicinity, but it is so vague that I could not speak to it. 2452. If you had capital sufficient to undertake a voyage to Cliina in a ship of 1,200 tons, the cargo being entirely your own, and the freight to be £22 a ton, should you expect, from your knowledge of the trade, to obtain a profitable return, or to lose by the adventure ? — It is an enormous concern for one individual to undertake •, it is far beyond my calculation. 2453. You have stated, that if the trade was thrown open, you think it would soon be entirely interrupted, in consequence of the disorders that would take place ; have you ever known the trade to be interrupted between the Americans and the Chinese ? — In the business of the Italian sailor it was. 2454. How long was it interrupted ? — I think the Americans got tired of it in about six weeks, and gave up the man. 2455. Have you ever known the trade been interrupted by any differ- ences between the Company and the Chinese? — Yes; in the business of the Topaze, a man was killed by the frigate, and they looked to the Company to give up the men from the frigate that had committed the murder. 2456. Was it interrupted at all in the year 1814 ? — I recollect there were circumstances which kept the ships at Lintin a long time, while the Factory had disputes with the Chinese government. 2457. Do you know how long the Americans have carried on trade with Canton ? — I cannot say. I recollect the Americans as long as I have been in the habit of going to China. 2458. Is not the country trade with Canton more extensive than the trade carried on direct from England to China ? — If it includes the Company's ships, I should think it was. 2459. Exclusive of the Company's ? — I am not prepared to say. The trade is very extensive, no doubt. 2460. Has that trade ever been interrupted ? — I do not know that it has j but the Lascar is much more under control than a European sailor. 2461. Are SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 217 2461. Are those ships manned by Lascars, commanded by Europeans? — 8 March 1830. They are. €4f)'2. You have stated that the Chinese are a people eminently adverse "^ ' " '^"^^' to trade? — I think they are adverse to all innovation and all alteration. 24C3. Do you know whether they trade with Sincapore ? — Lately one or two junks have been down there ; but whether it is with the western part of China, or whether it is Amoy, on the eastern part, I cannot say. ^ifi^. Do you believe that the trade with Sincapore by the Chinese vessels has been confined to one or two junks in a year? — Sincapore is a very infant settlement, and I think was scarcely known to the Chinese more than four or five years back; and the junks that came in we scarcely knew where they came from, because, if you include all the coast of Cochin China, there may be numbers, but from China I scarcely know one. 24-65. Did the Chinese trade to Batavia ? — Yes; I think about two junks in a year. 2466. Did they trade to Siam ? — I cannot say : we often met with them in the China seas. 2467. Did they trade to Malacca ? — I think I have seen two junks in the Straits of Malacca sometimes ; but to what extent the trade is, I cannot say. 2468. From what do you infer that they are a nation adverse to trade? — Merely from intercourse ; whatever is new to them they set their faces against. 2469. Do they set their faces against those articles of European ma- nufacture or produce which they stand in want of, and which can be fur- nished to them cheaper and better than the productions of their own country? — I should think the Chinese demand for European articles is on a very small scale. 2470. Do they set their faces against dollars? — It is not customary for them to do so. 2471. Are not dollars an article of trade? — I can hardly call money an article of trade. 2472. But of course, adverse as they are to trade, they do not expect to get the dollars of Europeans or Americans without giving something in return? — Certainly not. 2473. Then they are capable of understanding the benefits of trade, and of adopting them ? — Yes ; but they like trade in the old ways better than the new ones. 2474. Do you happen to know whether any of the junks that came to Sincapore ever brought tea? — I do not know that. 2475. You have stated that there was an interruption to the trade on the occasion 248 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIIIS: s March 1830. occasion of the affray between the crew of the Topaze and the Chinese : are - — you aware whether the trade was suspended upon that occasion by the super- Capt. L\ Ahager. ^^^^^^^ q^ by the Chinese ? — By the Chinese government. 217G. Are you not aware, that upon that occasion the Cliinese govern- ment addressed a communication to the commodore cf the Company's ships, stating that if they would withdraw themselves from the influence or con- trol of the Select Committee, the Chinese would trade with tliem, and give them goods, and carry on commercial intercourse with them ? — The Chinese did attempt to set the commanders against the Company, to divide the inte- rest ; but we said, we are entirely under the orders of the Select Committee, and must attend to them. 2177. Was not the purport of the communication with the Chinese sent upon that occasion, that they were willing to trade with the ships if you would withdraw yourselves from the control of the Select Committee ; in fact, that they would tiirow open the trade, and give you cargoes and receive your goods ? — I think it was only a trial to see how far they could divide the English autliorities there. 2478. In point of flict, did they not offer to trade with the ships inde- pendently of the Select Committee, if you would withdraw yourselves from the control and influence of the supercargoes? — I do not think it extended so far as that ; it was a little inquiry to know whether we would act without the authority of the supercargoes, and finding that we could not do it, they ceased immediately. 2479- Did they not state, that if you would act without the supercargoes they would agree to trade with you? — I think not as far as that. 2480. Did not the communication convey a disposition to deal with you upon the terms mentioned? — I think it was merely a trial, without any sincerity, to divide us. I cannot say what was the purport of the com- munication. 2481. Can you state how many tons bulk the spare stores taken out in the Company's regular ships would occupy ? — Water is the most bulky article. 2482. The question refers to cordage and sails, and every thing else ex- cept water : — The actual room that they occupy is very small ; it is in the lazaretto, from the foremast to the bows. If the object of the question is to ascertain how much cargo less is brought home in consequence of those stores, the stores are put where no cargo is permitted to be put ; they are put in the bows of the ship, in the orlop deck, where tea would be liable to damage. 2483. Then you mean to say that the cordage and sails, and all the valuable stores, are put in a place where cargo is not permitted to be put ? — It is. 2484. Are you aware that some country ships have gone from Bombay to China SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 249 China manned entirely with Europeans, and traded there without any inter- 8 March 1830. ruption whatever ? — I was not aware of that. 2485. You have stated that large ships have a great advantage in the port ^"^''' ^^' "^^■"^'5'*''- of Canton, with reference to the tonnage dues, from the mode of measure- ment being such as to leave large spaces at each extremity unmeasured ; are those spaces which are not measured larger in proportion to the spaces which are measured in a large shij) than they are in a small ship ? — They would be in proportion to the entire body of the vessel. 2486. Does not the space which is measured, that is, the distance between the centre of the foremast and tlie centre of the mizenmast and tlie extreme width, increase in the same proportion as the spaces which are not measured, according to the size of the ship ? — No doubt ; but then the depth is not reckoned at all, and therefore there is a gain upon the depth. 24S7. Is not the mode of measurement such, that the tonnage upon which the Chinese calculate the duty is as much larger in proportion in a large ship as it is in a smaller ship? — Certainly it is. 2488. Then is not the result the same upon a small ship as upon a large ship ? — No ; because, as I said before, it is a mere superficial measurement, and the depth is not reckoned, where there is a gain of seven feet, and the two extremes are not measured also. The calculation is made only upon the part that is measured, which upon a ship of 1,300 tons is about 4,000 tales, and on a 500 ton siiip about 3,000 tales. 2489. What effect, in your opinion, would the opening of the trade have, supposing the Company's trade to remain as at present, upon the supply of tea, both as to regularity, as to quantity, and as to quality? — The supply of tea would be regulated in a great measure by the demand. 2490. Would the quantity of good tea be as great in that case as it is now, or greater or less? — 1 think a large demand would lead to the manufacture of a deteriorated article ; and I think the Company would always have the preference of whatever was in the market. 2491. You think the Company would always have preferable means of purchase, whatever might arise, as long as they were purchasers? — I do. 2492. How do you account for the smuggling having increased, of late years, very much, with all this protection on the part of the Company? — I am not aware of any smuggling at all that has taken place in the Company's service ; all that I know of is outside the port, where ships are sailing amongst the islands, and their general trade is opium. I am not aware that there is any smuggling whatever in any other article. 2493. From what you know of the Chinese, do you not think they would be disposed to sell to the highest bidder. Supposing the trade to be open, and that Englishmen could go there as well as the Company, would they sell to the Company cheaper than to any body else ? — I think the Company would have the best article offered them at a certain price. 2 I 2494, You 250 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 8 March 1830. 2494. You think competition in the market would not affect the price? — I think a large would, as in general merchandize I think it does. 2495. If the demand for good teas increased by opening the trade, do not you think the supply would be increased in proportion? — 1 think it would open the door to a great deal of deteriorated article; how far the growth might be increased in the interior I cannot tell. Capt. JR. Alsager. Esq. WALTER STEVENSON DAVIDSON, Esq. called in, and examined. W. S. Davidson, 2496. Have you resided in Canton as a merchant? — Yes, I have. 2497- Will you state to the Committee, when you went there, how long you staid, and in what business you were employed? — I first of all visited China in the year ISO7, but staid merely that season; I returned to settle there in the year 1811, and I finally quitted it in 1822. 2498. Are you a British subject ? — Unquestionably ; I am a native of Scotland. 2499. How were you allowed to reside at Canton as a merchant, not belonging to the Company's establishment ? — I resided there as a naturalized Portuguese subject, and I obtained that naturalization for a space of 100 years and upwards. I received it by favour from the King of Portugal ; I paid nothing for it. 2500. Would you have been allowed to remain as an English subject, unless you had been naturalized or under some otiier flag ? — Unquestionably not. So far from it, wiien I obtained the letter of naturalization I wrote to the then Court of Directors, informing them that I had got such, but that 1 still wished to ])roceed out in one of their ships to China, and they replied to me that they could not think of permitting it. 2501. Did they attempt to prevent your residence there when you appeared as a Portuguese subject? — Never; nor had I ever occasion to appear as a Portuguese subject; and for obvious reasons, I never sought to do so. 2502. Will you state in what character you did appear ? — I never was, from the commencement of my residence to the termination, desired to state in what character I appeared. 2503. Was it not known that you had been naturalized as a Portuguese? — Perfectly notorious on the spot. 2504. Do you not believe that it was on that account you were allowed to remain ? — Entirely. 2505. What was the firm of your business? — The firm of busines", when I joined it, was Baring & Company ; it afterwards became Molony, Robarts, k Company, and afterwards W. S. Davidson & Company. 250G. What Mr. Baring was it? — It was Mr. George Baring. 2507. Was he a member of the Company's Factory there? — No, he was not ; he had previously resigned the service, and resided in England. 2508. Had SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 251 2508 Had he been in the Company's service ? — He had. 8 March 1830. 2509. Who were associated with you ? — Two other Company's servants, Mr. Molony and Mr. Robarts. '^- ^- ^^^"^"'"' 2510. They were then belonging to the Factory ? — They were. 2511. How long had they been established as agents at Canton?— The house existed for many years before. The earliest member of it with whom I am acquainted is Mr. Fitzhugh, now in London, the present Lord Strath- allan : Mr, Henry and Mr. William Baring, the brothers of Mr. George Baring, > also belonged to it. 2512. In what year did you join them?— In 1811 I went out. 2513. What was the business they carried when you joined them ? — Agents in all articles the produce of India, but chiefly cotton and opium ; certainly opium and cotton formed nine-tenths of the business. 2514. Then it is presumed that the Factory knew perfectly that you managed the trade in opium ? — That will require a little explanation. 1 mentioned that I was in China in 1807, during which time I became acquainted with all the members of that firm : in consequence of which, ' upon the East-India Directors depriving their servants of the power of carrying on the opium agency, they invited me to go out to China to manage 1 1 it ; and the bona fide understanding was, that every dollar that was derived from the opium agency should go into my pocket ; and every dollar that was derived from the cotton agency, which was still legal and allowable, ^ should so into theirs. to^ 2515. How long had the Company allowed their servants to be opium agents? — As well as I can recollect, the East-India Directors had capriciously changed their regulations two or three times ; I cannot say precisely. 251(3. Did they change them after the time of your joining the house? — Yes. They afterwards deprived them of the power of acting as cotton agents ; or rather, they desired that instead of certain parties, who then acted as cotton agents, retaining it, it should be carried on by them, or others of their servants, for the benefit of the whole Factory. Mr. Molony and Mr. Robarts declined to take it on that footing, alleging very properly, that as they were very often obliged to remain at Canton during the hot season to attend to the business, when the others were amusing themselves at Macao, it was not fair ; and it was upon that occasion that the house assumed my name, and all the business fell into my hands. 2517. Did any of those Company's servantscontinuepartners withyou in any portion of business ? — In nothing whatever. 2518. During the time you remained, did any of the Company's servants afterwards act as agents for any business ? — Never afterwards, till 1822, when I quitted the country, and I have every reason to beUeve not since. 2519. How many factories existed in Canton during the time you were 2 I 2 there ? 252 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: S March J 830. there ? — There was the English ; the American had a consul, not a company ; ., ^ r the Dutch had sunercareroes, and thev had a factory also. IV. S. Davidson, i & ' . J Esq, 2520. Had the Dutch Company a monopoly ? — It had ceased to be a monopoly, because the Company ceased to operate at the time of the war of the French Revolution. The Spanish also had a factory and a factor, but V he resided almost entirely at Macao, as agent for the Royal PhiHppine Company. There was the Swedish, they had no business, and the consul of which, Sir Andrew Ljunstedt, resided at Macao. The French, Prussian, Austrian, and Danish had been formerly known there, but there were no consuls excepting nominal ones. In one instance they were British subjects who were the consuls. Messrs. Magniacs, I tliink, were the Prussian consul and vice-consul. 2521. Have any partners of that house lately come home? — Yes, the chief partner is in this country now, Mr. Hollingworth Magniac. There was an Austrian factory, but it was during my time always let to captains of the Company's ships or others ; and 1 think there was a liong called Danisli. The difference between a hong and a factory is, that a hong comprises several places of residence. 2322. Were there any other iinglishmcn under foreign flags residing at that time in Canton, besides your own house and Magniac's ? — In the course of my residence I admitted a partner, who was the Sardinian consul. 2523. Was he a partner with you ? — Yes, he became so, and is now at the head of that house, Mr. Dent. 252 1. Did you trade on your own account, or act as agent, during the time you staid tlicre ? — I did both. 2525. Will you state to the Committee in what manner you managed the sale of the opium consigned to you as agents? — Nothing was more simple. The ship on board which opium was lay generally at Whampoa, at that time, about twelve miles from Canton. The parties wlio purchased opium of my house paid the money in Canton, and so soon as it was ascertained that the silver was good, which was done by shrofts I had for the purpose, they received an order on the officer to take the opium out of tiie ship. The purchasing parties then went down, generally under the colour of night, and took the opium out of the ship ; that is to say, broke open the chests and threw the opium into bags, leaving the chests on board, because they were not so handy for their boats. 2526. Is it within your knowledge that they obtained any orders or made any preliminary arrangements before they could go on board for the opium ? — Decidedly. As far as general rcjjort and general belief) they always had an understanding with the Mandarins previously to taking opium out : that is to say, they re(]uired to know how much money they should pay them on each chest ; and when this money was paid, those persons, it was always understood, gave orders that they should not be molested. 2527. "^Vas Zs.s-r/. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 253 2527. Was it ktiown in Canton that those ships had opium on board, 8 Marcli 1830. although the article was contraband? — It was quite notorious to all the parties. ^^- S- Danidson. 2528. Was it known to all the authorities? — I cannot say that it was known to the Fooyuen or the Hoppo, but I do not doubt it. 2529. Have you ever known any attempt to seize the opium on board of a ship lying at Whampoa? — I never heard of such a thing. 2530. Have you ever known more ships than one lying at Whampoa with opium ? — Many. 2531. Where did they lie at that time ; was it between Danes' Island and French Island ? — Near both. They generally chose the most quiet and sequestered spot ; because, as their anchor was likely to be down so much longer than any other vessel, it was desirable that they should be out of the way. 2532. Are you aware that the cnstom-house authorities invariably appointed boats to watcli those opium vessels? — Certainly. 2533. Then your opinion is, that the smuggling of opium was with the knowledge of the authorities there, and you never knew of any interruption to it? — I have known interruption to it, but I have never known any diffi- culty on board the ship. 2534 .What difficulty have you known out of the ship? — I have known periods when the demands and extortions of the Mandarins were so high that it was not possible to sell opium. 2535. Notwithstanding that, was any attempt ever made to seize the opium on board the ships ? — Never, that I knew of. 2536. When ships arrive at Canton containing opium, in what way is the cargo entered? — Opium is never entered : every ship bringing opium always brings some other cargo ; that other cargo is always the cargo entered. 2537. Is there any additional charge made on ships which lie there, as the opium sliips do, the year round? — I never knew an instance ; that is to say, I never was obliged to pay, but I have been plagued about it. 2538. How long have you known a ship lie there ? — I do not remember any instance of a ship lying above a year, excepting one to my own consign- ment : slie lay mucli more, and it was about her that I had a great deal of trouble. It was a very unusual occurrence, and Vvould be likely always to give trouble. 2539. Are you aware whether the Hong merchants have any tlu'ng to do in the opium trade ? — I am afraid some of them have had : I knew one very well who was too ready to deal In it : I never dealt witii him myself because I did not approve of it, but I believe he has dealt frequently in it. 2540. Does that Hong merchant still belong to the Hong f — The Hong merchant to whom I alluded no longer belongs to the Hong. 2541 Are 254 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS 8 March 1830. fV S. Davidson, Esq. 2541. Are the Hong merchants changed from time to time ? — I have never known them changed, except by death, or bankruptcy, or banishment. 2542. Are you aware whether they pay any sum of money to obtain the privilege of the Hong? — I do not know it, but I have no doubt of it. I believe that nothing is to be obtained in China without paying the autho- rities. 2543. Have you any doubt that any thing may be obtained in China on paying for it ? — There are very few things that may not I beHeve. 2544. Will you state generally what the rate of commission on doing business at Canton was in your time? — Generally, in my time, commissions were reduced ; and which I believe is the usual practice in all countries where trade is extending, and where it begins very high. On cotton I never knew it below three per cent. ; on opium I knew it five per cent., and it became three. There were many parties in China who did business on much smaller commissions than this. My house made a rule of never doing so, by which means we lost a great deal of business. 2545. Had you, during the whole time you remained there, ever any trouble yourself on account of being an agent for opium ? — I was in a con- stant sea of trouble. 2546. With the Chinese authorities ? — I never had occasion to come into direct communication with the Chinese authorities ; I avoided it, because it would have been of no avail. 2547. Will you state what you mean by saying that you were in a sea of trouble J what were the difficulties you met with ? — Constant interruptions, owing to the exactions of the Mandarins, which stopped the sales altogether in some instances. On other occasions, after the parties who bought the opium of me had paid down the money and had got their orders, it could not be delivered, and I was obliged to refund, because they could not make their arrangements ; and as parties in those circumstances are sometimes very unreasonable, in some instances they wanted me to indemnify them for the profits they might have got, when it was in fact their own government which impeded them. 2548. Have you any means of judging whether the trouble attending the sale of opium is less now, since the ships were removed from Whampoaand stationed themselves at Linting, outside the river? — I should say that I do not believe there is much difference in the trouble, but a vast difference in the anxiety : because, in the one case, they were liable to seizure any day : in the other case, they lie in a spot where they can defend themselves against any power that can come against them. 2549. You mean to say, that the trade, in your time, whilst the ships lay at Whampoa, was more difficult than it is now? — More full of anxiety. There was no difficulty in it ; it was a very good business. 2550. Did SELECT COMMITTEE oi- the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 255 2550. Did you ever know of any otiier articles except opium being g Maicli J 830. smuggled ? — I have heard of a great many, but I never smuggled any other articles myself in the import trade. W. S. DuvUison, 2551. AVith regard to the exports? — In exports I smuggled very largely of silver, because it was a prohibited article as well as opium ; and so was tutenague, I believe: and the rule which guided me was, that 1 would smuggle the articles which were prohibited, but not those upon which a direct duty was laid. 2552. Can you state what was the number of chests of opium imported at Canton in your time ? — The quantity varied : on general recollection, I think I may say 6,000 or 7,000 chests. 2553. How many pounds does a chest contain ? — I think a chest contains two maunds of 82 pounds each, that is 164 pounds, or it may be two maunds of 74 pounds each. 2554. What was the average price you sold it for ? — I think I have known the price vary from 1,200 dollars to 2,400 dollars. 2555. Are you aware that the trade to China has now increased to 13,000 or 14,000 chests ? — So I have heard of late years, and I have no doubt of it. 2556. What was the value of the opium you have stated? — From 8,000,000 to 12,000,000 of dollars, between 2,000,000 and 3,000,000 sterling. 2557. Was all the opium that you received Company's opium, or was there any Turkey opium ? — There was Turkey opium. 2558. Wiiat proportion to the quantity of Company's? — I am not pre- pared to say, nor can I find amongst my papers sufficient data to give that conclusion. 2559. You have stated that you smuggled silver, did you ever apply for a chop for permission to export it? — Never. 2560. Do you know that the Company have exported silver ? — Yes ; I have heard so. 2561. Do you know whether they received a chop permitting them to export it ? — I have no doubt of it ; I am convinced they would not hazard the doing it without. 2562. What responsibility did you consider to attach to you as an agent, selling a prohibited article like opium? — In a pecuniary point of view, I never considered it was a responsibility that could be valued ; nor did I ever charge or pretend to have a right to charge any thing for it. Personally, of course, every man who resides in China runs a great risk. The government, for instance, as I have stated, knew full well that a ship was at Whampoa with a large quantity of opium; that she was to my consignment, and they might 256 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS 8 March 1830. W. S. Davidson, Esq. might have imprisoned me any day, and said till you pay 100,000 tales you shall not be released. Q,5QS. Did that ever happen during your residence there? — Never. ^S&'if. Did you ever hear of its happening? — Never. I do not think that in the history of the trade there has been an instance of it. 2565. What risk did you consider you ran in smuggling silver ?— None whatever, beyond the seizure of the silver, with which they are always ex- ceedingly well satisfied. 2566. Have you known many seizures made? — I have known some, but very few indeed, the parties are so exceedingly expert. 2567. Upon whom did that loss fall ? — It fell upon the party for whom it was a remittance to India, either myself or my constituents, as the case might be. 2568. Could that risk become a matter of insurance? — Certainly not. 2569. Have you ever known it taken as such ? — I think no European would ever be so foolish to run such a risk. I cannot pretend to say that it has never been made a risk ; I never would have run the risk myself for any reasonable premium. 2570. In your time did the Chinese undertake to put the silver on board for you ? — Yes. 2571. What rate did you pay them for it ? — I bought the silver of them, and they undertook to put it on board. It was deliverable on board, and I paid them sometimes before and sometimes after they brought me the cap- tain's receipt for it. 2572. Then your own risk was at an end? — Entirely; except when I chose to step out of the way and trusted them, which I have often done with all those parties, both in silver and in opium. 2573 Do you mean to say that you sold opium on credit? — Yes, I have, very foolishly. 2574. Then it is presumed your opinion of the Chinese was very good ? — It must have been so, when I sold to the greatest rogues in the country an article on credit. 2575. Did you ever make any bad debts in such cases ? — Yes, I have. 2576. You stated that some time after you sold the opium, the parties came to you to have the money returned, because they could not get an order for the landing of it ; is it an universal practice in getting this article on shore to get an order from the Mandarins before an attempt is made to land it ? — I should think by no means. The parties who had my order for the opium, if they could evade the Mandarins, avoided paying them ; but generally speaking, I believe, they cannot evade them, and that they find it the surest way to pay them. 2577. Generally speaking, is permission obtained from the Mandarins before SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 25? before an attempt is made to land the opium? — I should think the parties « March 1830. generally pay in order to secure the safety of the opium : but I may be per- mitted to add, that I should think it very likely, in the case of paying too ^'^- S. Duridsou. small a sum, the Mandarins might still seize the opium afterwards ; and I ^'^'i- should think that the parties, unless they were disposed to pay the full fee, would rather run the risk altogether. 2578. Is there then any established fee ? — Yes, there is an established fee for to-day ; but you cannot depend upon them beyond the day, it is con- stantly liable to variation. 2579- Is there always a price, in the nature of a fee, paid to the Manda- rins, which will ensure the landing of opium ? — Except at such times when their demands are so extortionate that it is impossible to sell the opium. 2580. What is the greatest payment you have known to be made to a Mandarin ? — I know nothing whatever of the fine paid to the Mandarin. 2.581. You stated that the opiinn agents are generally watched by boats from the custom-house when the opium is taken out of the ship, with an order obtained from the Mandarins: are those boats generally present? — I believe the system has been, when they have received intelligence from their chiefs, to retire. 2582. Are you not aware that those custom-house boats are moored astern and on the quarter of every vessel ? — Custom-house boats are ; but I am not aware that the boats whose duty it is to seize those parties are moored there, they are far too weakly manned and armed. 2583. Are you not aware that those boats permitted the opium to be landed ? — Decidedly. 2584. Could they prevent it if they pleased? — That does not follow; they may not be strong enough. I have known instances of the Chinese opium boats overpowering all force, where it was a very large quantity, and it was worth their while killing and wounding men ; but generally they do not attempt it. 2585. On such an occurrence happening, have you ever known any notice taken of it by the government ? — Never. 2586. Besides opium, have not you purchased tea on commission ? — My export in that way has been but small. I have, however, done it often. 2587. What was the commission you were allowed on tea ? — Three per cent, the same as on cotton. 2588. Generally speaking, did you not buy and sell the different commo- dities of Canton ? — Certainly. 2589. Have you found any difficulty in your dealings, either with the Hong merchants or with the outside merchants? — I very seldom dealt with the outside merchants. I have often found difficulties with both descrip- tions. 2 K 2590. Did 258 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 8 Maicli 1830. 2590. Did they refuse to sell to you, or refuse to buy ? — Never. JV. S. Davidson 2591. What are the difficulties that you met with; have they refused to Esq. P^y ? — Yes, I have met with many difficulties of that nature, having the mis- fortune to deal with bankrupts. 2592. What should you say of the facility of doing business in the port of Canton as compared with other ports? — I should say it is greater in that than in any other country I have ever either visited or heard of. 2593. Have you ever sent teas on your own account to New South Wales or any other place? — Not on my own account; but I have sent them on account of other parties many times. ISQ'ii. Did you buy those teas by previous contract, or as you found them in the market ? — I have bought them both ways. When I knew that the vessel was coming, then, of course, I would buy them by contract pre- viously ; when a vessel came suddenly with an order, and had to return im- mediately, 1 was obliged to buy them at the moment. 2595. As a general rule, then, when you knew a vessel was coming, you would provide the cargo by previous arrangement ?— Unquestionably. 2596. Do you not consider that the East-India Company, by having a regular demand for their trade to England, can buy their teas cheaper than a stranger, who goes into the market with only a short time to purchase his cargo in ? — Certahily ; the Company buy their teas at great advantage. 2597- Do you think, if your purchases had been large, you would have had equal facilities with the Company? — I think, if my purchases were equally large, I should have equal facility, if I were equally active and intelligent. 2598. Do you consider that the principal advantage which the Company has arises from the great extent of purchases and sales which they make? — Yes, I do. 2599- Are you aware of any other advantage they have beyond their great punctuality and their great dealings? — That seems to me to embrace every advantage that can be possessed by a great trading company. 2600. Supposing the Company to continue to trade there, and supposing the trade thrown open to other Englishmen, with liberty to settle and reside at Canton, do you foresee any difficulties in carrying on the trade at Canton ? — I foresee that many may arise. 2601 . Will you state what difficulties you anticipate ? — I believe that in- dividuals would conduct themselves so irregularly, that they would quickly become embroiled with the Chinesi". 2002. Have you ever known, during the time you resided there, any interruption, or any individual coming in collision with the authorities there? — I think 1 stated before, that wo knew better than to come into col- hsion with the government; but we have had many grievances. 2603. When SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 259 2603. When a grievance occurred, in what way did you apply for the 8 Mardi I83(i. redress of that grievance ? — During the whole of my residence I never had . , occasion to apply for the redress of any ; but 1 have heard the modes taken '^' '**■ ^"^"^■'""'' by other parties, which modes are generally understood to be by going to the ''^' Viceroy's palace, with a chop, or letter, stating the grievances ; that is to say, a great collection of people, who are of the same mind, and who were generally labouring under a common grievance, forced their way through the city gate and made to the palace ; and when they succeeded, as they frequently did, the parties there were very glad to take their letter, and to get rid of them. 2604. Do you allude to the Company's servants as having ever done that ? — No ; the Company have the privilege, and a very great one it is, of com- municating with the Canton government in Chinese ; it was gained by ne- gociation long ago. 2605. To whom do you allude as having done that?— Persons connected with the Country traders ; but I remember on one of the most spirited occasions they were headed by a late Chairman of the East-India Company, the Honourable Mr. Lindsay, who got great credit for the manner in which he conducted the business. 2606. Did he head the party as a servant of the Company, or as an Englishman independently of the Company ? — Decidedly as an Englishman, and not as a servant of the Company. 2607. Have you ever known any of the Company's commanders joining in these proceedings ? — The Honourable Mr. Lindsay was then the Honourable Captain Lindsay, and a Company's commander. 2608. Did you ever know of any of the Select Committee, or the persons belonging to the Company's establishment there, joining in such proceedings ? — No, I do not. 2609. Can you recollect the nature of the remonstrance they presented ? — I cannot ; I was not on the spot at the time. 2610. Was redress given to the grievances? — I think, generally speaking, those petty grievances for which they sought redress in this manner were relieved. 2611. Comparing the time when you arrived at Canton with the time wlien you came away, do you conceive that, on the whole, there were greater facilities for trade at the termination than at the commence- ment ? — Unquestionably. 2612. Are you aware whether, from what has taken place since you came away, still greater facilities have been afforded? — I have heard very little of the matter since I came away. 261.3. What do you consider to have been the cause of that greater facility? — Privileges obtained by the exertions of the East-India Company's Select Committee. 2614. Did that apply to the Americans r — Unquestionably. I conceive 2 K 2 the 260 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 8 Marcli 1830. the Americans and all other foreigners have benefited by those privileges which have been obtained by the East-India Company, and, as I conceive, jr. S. Davidson, ^^ ^j^e cost of Great Britain. Esq. 2615. Are the Committee to understand that in these remonstrances by individual Europeans residing there, that the Company's civil servants ever joined in them or not ? — I believe not. 2G16. You stated, that you were afraid that disturbances might take place; have you ever known any interruption of the trade of any nation, except that which has taken place with the India Company ? — t know the American trade stopped on one occasion, in consequence of a life that was lost, in the case of the Italian sailor Majocci ; I do not remember any other. 2617. Then what induces you to say there would be a risk of disturbance, when you know no instance of that having taken place ? — Because I con- ceive the Chinese would very soon deprive you of all your privileges, and the trade would consequently be carried on to the greatest disadvantage j the parties interested there would be dissatisfied, and I think it is not going too far to say, that they would greatly misconduct themselves in the end from cruel irritation. 26X8. Have you not said that it was your interest to conduct yourself quietly to avoid collision ? — Certainly. 2G19. What reason have you to think that other individuals, consulting their own interest, would not act with equal caution ? — Because very few had so large a stake as myself. Smaller stakes make people less cautious. 2620. Do you not contemplate, if the trade were open, that the agency business would very much increase, so as to be worth every indivi- dual's attention ? — It is very possible it might. 2621. Do you contemplate danger as likely to arise, supposing China to remain as it now is with regard to Europeans ? — There are now a great many private individuals in China who have much larger stakes than they had in my time. 2622. Do you find that they come in collision with the public authorities ? — I should think not. 2623. Do you know Mr. Wilcox, an American merchant, who was there ? — Yes, intimately. 2624*. Have you ever known him or any of his countrymen come in colli- sion, except in the unfortunate case you have alluded to ? — Never. 2625. How often have you known the trade interrupted by the English coming in collision with the public autiiorities there ? — Two occasions I have a vivid recollection of. Tl)e first occasion was in 1814 ; it was the resistance on the part of the supercargoes to an attempt made by the government, in conjunction with the Hong merchants, to make the monopoly which they possess much more close and injurious to the English trade than it had ever been before. 2G26. That SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 261 2626. That is, the Chinese authorities were anxious to estabHsh Co-hongs, 8 March 1830. so as to render the monopoly of the sale of Chinese articles greater? — The nature of it was to give authority to the senior Hong merchants, that they '*-S. Davifhon, should have a power to control the juniors to fix the prices, and in short, "^^' to exercise a very despotic authority over their own body^and over the trade. 2G27. If such had been established, do you consider that an increase of the price of teas was anticipated ? — I conceive that would have followed. 2628. What steps did the Company take in resisting those demands ? — They resisted those demands, by stopping not only their own trade, but all the country trade. 2629. How long did they stop that trade ? — As well as I can recollect, I should say about two months. 2630. Have you ever known any interruption by any proceedings of coun- try traders? — Never. 2631. On what other occasion do you recollect any interruption ? — On the occasion of the affair of the Topaze frigate, I think in the season 1821-2, an affray took place between the crew of the frigate and the Chinese, in which some of the Chinese were killed and wounded, and on that occasion the Chinese stopped the trade. 2632. Had the Company's own servants any thing to do with causing that ? — They were not the cause of it, it was a king's ship. 263S. Did any dispute arise about the price of black tea between the Company's Factory and the government ? — I am not aware of that circum- stance. 2634. How do you account for king's ships, which of course are better disciplined, and under better command and control than any other ships, having been the cause of disturbance in China, when the country ships have not caused any disturbance? — In the simplest way possible; one party will take blows, the other will not. 2635. Will you explain what you mean ? — King's ships going to China, will, of course, submit to no insult whatever ; and therefore, so long as they do go to China in the present state of things they must embroil the trade, because I hold it to be quite impossible for any ship to be in China, and in contact with the Chinese, without being insulted sooner or later. 2636. Are the Company's ships ever insulted in that way? — I have often heard of persons belonging to Company's ships receiving insults. 2637 . Then they are obliged to put up with the insults as well as others ? — Of course. I speak of personal insults, and not such as affect the honour and character of the Company's representatives in China. 2638. Supposing the trade were thrown open, and supposing the Company to exist as a Company without exclusive privileges, and supposing a consul, with 262 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: s Maicli 1830. with a council perhaps on the part of the Crown, with powers to regulate „ .,~7. ., the conduct of every EnMishman visiting Canton, can you form any opinion Lsq^ vvliat would be the result as to keeping peace and good understanding with the Chinese, as compared with what now takes place with the Company's present establishment? — Supposing such a state of things to exist at some future period, I should say that, unless judicious and energetic diplomatic arrangements preceded such a change, the British trade would not exist at Canton two seasons without the most violent and serious interruption. My reasons for thinking so are these. The Company possess the twofold charac- ter of trading merchants and of a great controlling power: they can temporise, as they have done before; but if the representatives of Great Britain emanated directly from the government of this country, I conceive they would be placed precisely in the same situation as the men-of-war have always been in, that is to say, they would stickle for the honour of their government, and they would not be able to recede from their first demands, by which means the trade would be lost for two seasons at least ; many individuals would be thereby entirely ruined, and the country would be unable to reinstate their commercial intercourse with China without incurring a vast cost. 2G39. Have you not stated that other Europeans, when aggrieved, have united together to demand redress from the Chinese, and have obtained it? — In insignificant cases : I have stated that to have been done on petty occa- sions, not on great occasions, certainly. Such an attempt in the year 1814, when the Company made their great stand, would have been as futile as it would be for me to hold up my hand in this city for the purpose of extin- guishing a great fire. 2640. Have you found, from your own experience, that the Chinese people are extremely desirous to carry on trade with Europeans ? — Unquestionably, but in their own way. 2641. Then it is the regulations of the government that you consider to be hostile? — Entirely so. 2642. You have stated that during your recollection, and as far as you have heard, no interruption has ever taken place with the Americans, who have carried on that trade for many years, except in the case of the Italian sailor; have you ever known any thing of the kind occur with the Danish, the Spanish, the French and Dutch, during the last five years? — Certainly not. 2643. Then are the Committee to understand that you anticipate those difficulties from the supposition that irregularities would take place on the part of the traders there ? — That is only a part of my reason, which is correct as far as it goes, but also from the decided disposition of the Chinese autho- rities to encroach. 2644. Are you able to state whether the number of individuals employed in China by the tea trade is very considerable ? — I have always under- stood so. 2645. Would SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 263 2645. Would not the stoppage of the trade which you anticipate be as im- 8 .Marcli 1830. portant a grievance to that country, as the stoppage of a great branch of trade . wouUI be to any other country ? — Unquestionably; it would ruin those en- '*^ '5> jy"" •""'"' ffajred in it at the moment. 2646. Do not you consider that would be an inducement to them to act on reasonable terms ? — The government of China and the trading people are so very distinct, that it is impossible to suppose one motive actuating both parties. 2647. Do not the Mandarins and the officers of government gain very much by the trade, both regular and smuggled ? — Unquestionably. 2648. Would it not be against their interest that any interruption should take place? — Certainly. 2649. Would it not also be against the interests of the English residing there to produce any interruption ? — Certainly. 2650. Both parties being anxious to keep the trade, on what ground do you suppose the trade would be lost? — Because, as I stated before, represen- tatives of the King of England could not temporize in the same way as the East-India Company have always been ready to do, when judged politic or necessary. 2651. You stated, that the present Lord Strathallan, and several gentlemen then in the Company's service, were concerned in business in Canton ; did you mean it to be understood that they had any interest whatever in the sale of opium, which you described as having taken place? — I stated that, from the moment I joined the house, it was upon the clear understanding that all the opium agency should be mine, and that the cotton and other agency should be theirs. 2652. Did they all participate in the opium agency? — I stated distinctly, that in point of fact they did not participate. I bo7id fide profited by the opium agency, and they bondfide kept the other agency. 2653. Did you not state that the Company afterwards put a stop to their ser- vants having an interest in the cotton agency also ?— They submitted a pro- position, that if it was retained by their servants it should be for the general benefit, certain parties i)eing nominated by the whole to act. The parties then concerned in it declined the thing on those terms, and consequently I succeeded to the whole agency, none of the otherparties in the Comp any's Factory choosing to start against me. 2654. Are the Committee to understand, then, that those gentlenien did nothing in the prosecution of that business, that they were not permitted to do as Company's servants ? — Distinctly so. 2655. Before you joined the house, had the opium agency been equally divided between the members of the house ? — Unquestionably ; but the opium agency was much smaller at that time tiian afterwards. ^ ^ 2656. Had 264 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 8 Marcli 1830. Q656. Had the gentlemen you have mentioned any concern in any business ~ which they were not permitted by the Company to engage in ? — Those gen- £'''"*' tlemen participated in nothing but what they were legally and strictly autho- rized to do. When they were no longer authorized to do it, they most honourably gave it up to me, and the thing was done quite bond Jide : and the reason I use that expression is, that in that country it was by some supposed to be otherwise ; but I state most distinctly, that the opium agency profits were bona Jide given up to me on joining the house. Martis, 9° die Martii, 1830. Captain CHARLES HUTCHINSON called in and examined. 9 Mtucli 1830. 2657. You are a captain in the navy ? — A commander in the navy. Cunt Hutchinson ~658. Since the peace have you employed yourself in the command of any ship in the mercantile service ? — I took the command of a ship called the Bombay Castle, at Liverpool, in 1819, and went to India, where I remained five years. 26,59. What was the size of the ship ? — Nearly 6OO tons. 26GO, During the five years you were in command of this ship had you any intercourse with Canton? — I went there three times, three several years, from Bombay, with cargoes of cotton and various other things that are sent from India. 2CGI. Was there any opium on board the ship ? — Not on board the ship ; it is generally sent in vessels employed for that particular trade. 2662. To what ports did you return when you left Canton ? — Always to Bombay from China. 2063. What were your return cargoes ? — They consisted of tea, sugar, silk, camphor, nankeens, and a variety of other articles fit for the market of India. 2664". Was tea any considerable proportion? — No, tea is but a very small proportion ; it is chiefly used by Europeans, and by a particular class of people called Parsecs. 2685. How long were you at Canton in any one of those voyages ? — Generally about three or four months. 2666. Had you the means of knowing whether the trade in which you en- gaged was profitable ? — Yes, I have no doubt it was profitable, more or less, at times: and as one proof of it, I used myself^ not knowing any thing of the trade, to lend money to merchants at Bombay, who paid eight per cent. for SELECT COMMITTEE oi i ni, HOUSE OF COMMONS. ^65 for it to Canton, and the same back ; and they made very kirgely upon it 9 Maicli 1830. again, as I understood from themselves. Since I quitted India, I have heard that tliey do not succeed so well as they did ; but that was the state of (-^"Pt- Hutchmsou. the trade while I was there. 2fi67. How was the ship in which you were employed manned? — En- tirely with Lascars, but with European officers. 2668. Do you know whether any ships have been employed in the country trade with China that were manned by Europeans? — I know of two, but I think there were more. They were ships that had been bought by British merchants, but had been built in India ; they had the privilege of going to China. They claimed the privilege, and went with British seamen on board. 2669. Supposing the privilege which belongs now to an Indian-built ship to extend to all British ships, do you consider that advantage would accrue from it to the trade ? — I have very little doubt of it. It can be but matter of opinion ; but calculating from what I saw the Americans do, I think it must be very advantageous ; for they bring goods from England and make a profit ; and I have myself carried goods to China from India which have been sold with a profit there. 2670. Supposing there were a greater competition of shipping, would not the expense of that trade probably be lower ? — No doubt it would. The freights are very heavy upon the ships that go from India to China. 2671. As you were three times at Canton engaged in those transactions of commerce, what should you say, from your opportunities of observing the character and habits of the people of China, as to their disposition with respect to intercourse with other countries and carrying on trade generally ? — They have a very great avidity to trade with every body they are permit- ted to trade with. The merchants of China are extremely eager to trade with every one that comes into the country ; more so than any people I have ever seen. 2672. Do you mean to say that they are a speculative, trading, enterprizing country? — Very much so ; beyond any others I have seen. 267'^. As they are disposed to favour trade, and to be speculative and enterprizing in it, are they disposed to be accommodating, and to afi^brd facilities in their intercourse ? — I think the people themselves are, in every possible way. The government take every opportunity of extorting duties; but those duties are not changed, and so long as you carry on the trade in the regular way appointed by them there is no sort of difficulty. Liverpool, which is one of the most expeditious ports for commerce in England, is not to be compared with Canton for its facility. In half an hour you may con- clude a sale of a whole cargo of a ship and the purchase of another, and you have no further trouble with it ; with the Hong merchants particularly : the more creditable ones among them are very honest in their dealings. 2674. You say that the government take every opportunity of extorting 2 L duties : 266 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 9 March 1830. duties: had you ever an opportunity of observing whether other governments are slack in levying duties on trade ? — Perhaps I was a little incorrect in (apt. Hutchinson, the expression I used. While you adhere to the regulations they have made, you have no fear of extortion ; but if you do any thing at all illegal you are subject to very great extortion, and this extortion their own merchants are liable to if they commit any irregularity. They frequently make the Hong merchants pay fines for no real cause, but some pretended ones. 2675. Had you any dealings with the Hong merchants ? — Yes, I had, but not to any great extent. 2676. Are there other merchants, exclusive of the Hong, with whom you can deal extensively ? — A great many, and some have very extensive deal- ings; indeed many of them much larger than many of the Hong merchants, who are in fact nothing but a name. 2677- So that you might have sold or bought a cargo without having recourse to the Hong merchants beyond what was necessary for securing the ship ? — Precisely so ; it is frequently done. 2678. Were there many American ships at Canton at any period when you were there ? — Yes ; many come there every year. 2679- Had you any intercourse with the captains or the supercargoes of those ships ? — I saw them frequently. 2GSO. Did you ever hear of any complaint of any want of facility in carry- ing on the trade in China? — No, I never heard any one complain of any wantof facility in carrying on the trade, as long as they adhere to the regu- lations of the country. 2081. Had you any opportunity of observing instances in which the Americans had to dispose of British manufactured goods in China? — iThere were two ships arrived one season when I was there, I understood, entirely loaded with British manufactures. I did not see the actual disposal of them, but it was well known that they did dispose of them. They were, I believe, not of a very good description, and consequently they did not sell so advan- tageously as those of a better description would have done. 1 had some in my ship at the same time which sold at a good profit; they had been bought in India at a profit, and they were sold again in China at a profit. Those were British cotton manufactured goods ; chiefly long-cloths and cambrics. I have taken woollen goods likewise. 2682. Did you ever carry any cotton-twist to China ? — I think a small quantity, but that trade had not then acquired any great extent. 2683. At what period were you last at Canton ? — I was there last in 1824. 2G84. As the Americans carry on a considerable trade with the Chinese, do they carry it on through the same system of agency, and with merchants of the same character as those who deal with the English ? — Precisely in the same manner. 2685. And SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 267 2685. And they meet with the same facihty? — Precisely. 9 March 1830. 2686. From your observation of the Chinese, are you of opinion that if ^ ,, , , . this trade was thrown open in the same manner as every other trade carried '^ on from this country, there would be a great increase in the demand for British manufactures and British produce in China ? — I think there would ultimately, but not immediately. There would be some increase immedi- ately ; but of course, that, like all other trades, must increase gradually. 2687. Have they any dislike to British manufactures? — Certainly not. 26S8. Do you think they would be induced to purchase them by the same considerations which prevail in every other part of the world, namely, their cheapness and their excellence as compared with the cheapness and the excellence of light goods, either the productions of their own country or of other countries with which they trade ? — Undoubtedly. I see them regu- lated by the same considerations as other people now, and I conceive they would be when the trade was open : I can see no reason why it should change their natures. 2689. Should you say it is a just distinction, speaking of the Chinese nation, to say that the people are speculative and much disposed to foreign trade, although the government is professedly adverse to communication with foreigners ? — Yes, certainly. The government may be said to be so far adverse to trade, tliat it is jealous of you, knowing what you have done in India, and it is apprehensive of your intrusion ; but so long as they may be secure that nothing else would be attempted, they are as desirous of carrying on the trade as the people themselves. 2690. Although the government professes jealousy in its intercourse with foreign nations, do not the servants of the government afford facility to that intercourse, from the consideration of the advantage they derive from it ? — I cannot say that the government does profess any sucli feeling ; it is be- lieved to be so, but I do not know that they absolutely profess it. 2691. In point of fact, are any difficulties thrown in the way of commerce by the servants of the government? — Certainly not: they have every desire for it, because they derive all their emoluments from it. Almost all offices in China are bought. The Hoppo at Canton buys his office at a large price, and if the trade were stopped he would lose his emoluments, and he would have no redress from the government. 2692. Was there any interruption' to the trade when you were at Canton, in consequence of any irregularities or difficulties? — There was an interrup- tion occasioned by the supercargoes of the Company themselves. Some men had been killed by the Topaze frigate, and two men were demanded in lieu of them. For two years they were told that the British Government would be applied to. In the third year they insisted upon a decisive answer as to those men ; they were told that they were men under the King's control, over which the Company had no power, and therefore they could 2 L 2 give 208 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 9 March 1830. give them no answer about it, and the Company's ships were not permitted to go to Whampoa, lest they should not afterwards be permitted by the L apt. Hutchmson. (j|iinese to quit the country. This interruption, I think, continued for nearly two months; and the Chinese, finding that the Factory were deter- mined not to give up the point, at last yielded, and sent a message that the King of England might punisli those men. The trade was then opened again, and all went on as before. 2G93. What year was that in ? — I think it was in 1822.. 2694. Are you aware of any other interruption arising out of the difficul- ties with the Chinese authorities, or with the Chinese people.'' — Not while I, was in China. 2695. Do you know of any interruptions that have arisen in the American trade ? — Not while I was in China ; but I have heard of such an interrup- tion, on the occasion of an Italian sailor, who was on board one of their ships, having been supposed to have killed one of the people. 2696. Are you aware of any difficulty or interruption that has occurred in the country trade ? — None but where the ships have committed some irregularity, and that has been but momentary. 2697. In that case, has the interruption been confined to the ship that has so offijnded, or has it been extended to the trade generally ? — It has been confined to the ship that has so ot!ended ; it has generally arisen from some of the Lascars attempting to smuggle opium. 2698. Has the interference of the government been confined to the ship that had been guilty of the offence ? — Certainly, in cases of that kind. 2699. And the others have received no molestation ? — None at all. 2700. Have the Americans any public officer at Canton to transact their business with the government? — There is an officer there who is called the consul, but he has no power over the ships that come there. There are many nominal consuls, of different nations, in China, but they have no power. Many obtain these appointments as an excuse to reside, the Company having the power to send away all British subjects. 2701. Is not the consumption of tea quite general in China among the native poj)ulation ? — Quite so, so far as I have seen ; but having had inter- course only with a particular portion of the empire, it is difficult to pro- nounce positively. 2702. Must not the whole quantity exported from China bear a small proportion to the quantity that is consumed at home ? — I have always under- stood so from the llong merchants. 2703. Do you understand that if there was any increased demand for tea there would be any dilKculty in supplying it ? — Certainly not. 2704. Supposing any interruption to occur to the trade with Canton, from any political or other cause, do you suppose there would be any diffi- culty SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. '>69 culty in the Chinese trading with Sincapore ? — I am not certain whether i) Maitli IS30. there would or not. If the Chinese government discovered that you ob- tained tea by that means, it is possible that they might prevent such vessels ^'"f'- ^^'"''^""•*'^"- going as would bring you a sufficient quantity ; but I cannot speak with any certainly, not knowing what their regulations are with regard to their own trade. 2705. Have you ever been at Sincapore ? — I have been there three times. 2706. Are there any considerable number of Chinese junks resorting to that settlement? — 1 have not seen many myself, but I have always under- stood that six or seven go there in a year, and sometimes more. 2707. Supposing the Chinese were to put a stop to the export of teas altogether, are you of opinion that the prohibition would be effectually en- forced, so as to prevent its being sent to Sincapore ? — I think it is extremely probable that they would be enabled still to bring it to Sincapore, but I am not certain. 2708. What do you apprehend would be the effect in China of a total prohibition of the export of tea? — It would be difficult to say. Tiie Chi- nese government feel themselves to be a very rotten sort of government ; they know that the people are ready to revolt in many of their provinces, and they would therefore be very cautious how they gave any cause of dis- content to any part of their empire ; but whether they are particularly afraid of that part of it situated near Canton I cannot tell. There are some of the provinces where they are much more inclined to revolt and to resist- ance than in that, particularly the province of Chichoo. 2709. You are aware that tea can be exported from other ports of China besides Canton in Chinese junks ? — Yes, because it is brought to Sincapore from other parts. 2710. Is it brought from the tea provinces ? — It is brought by canals to the coast, and then put on board the junks, who bring it to Sincapore. 2711. Are the junks that come to Sincapore with tea loaded at Canton, or at ports nearer to the growth of the tea ? — At ports nearer to the growth of the tea, I believe ; I know they are not loaded at Canton. 2712. Had you any opportunity of ascertaining that the tea exported to Sincapore is of a good quality ? — I believe not, because a good quality is not wanted. It is for the use of the Chinese there, who are of a very low de- scription, and who therefore require only very cheap tea. 2713. Do you think the Chinese government could more effiictually pre- vent the exportation of tea than it does the importation of opium? — Perhaps it might more eftectually, because tea is a more bulky article. 2714. From all its ports? — From all its ports, in the same proportion as to the two articles, of course. 2715. Is Oiiit. Hutchinson. 270 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 9 Miircli 1830. 2715. Is the exportation of tea by the Chinese junks to Sincapore an illegal trade or a permitted trade? — It is a permitted trade, I believe. '271C. Do you know whether the duty paid upon the exportation of tea in a Chinese vessel is lower than it is upon the like article exported in a foreign vessel ? — I am not aware whether it is or not. 2717. Is not Sincapore too new a settlement for you to be able yet to form an opinion of what effect that step may have upon the trade of China ? — Yes, I suppose it may be. 271 8. Do you know, of your own knowledge, where the tea sent to Sin- capore is shipped from in China ? — No, I do not ; I only know it is not shipped at Canton. 2719. Is it not shipped from ports nearer to the growth of the tea ?— So I have always understood ; of course I have no positive knowledge. 2720. Can you state what the relative prices of tea, of the same quality, at Sincapore and at Canton are ? — No, I cannot, never having inquired. 2721. Have you heard, whether, upon the whole, it is cheaper or dearer at Sincapore ? — I cannot say. It would, of course, be dearer than the same tea bought by the Chuiese at Canton not exported and paying no duty. 2722. Do you happen to know whether the Chinese government exact the same measurement duty and the same dues from their own junks as they do upon foreign shipping ? — I do not know. I should suppose not, from their desire to impose upon foreigners as much as they can. 2723. Then, of course, they could navigate much cheaper in those junks than the foreign ships could navigate ? — I should suppose so. 2724. Is it not the case that those ships frequently do clear out for one port with an intention to go to another if the market suits them ? — I con- ceive they would have no difficulty in going where they pleased, the Chinese government having no means of knowing where they went to after quitting the country. 2725. What do they take back from Sincapore to China ? — They take back tin, rattans, and betel-nut, if it can be obtained. 272G. Any British manufactures ? — I dare say they do. 2727. Have you a personal knowledge of this trade by junks ? — Yes; I have seen the junks at Sincapore. 2728. Are you aware whether the Exportation of tea in native vessels is prohibited by an edict of the Emperor of China ? — No ; I stated that, as far as I knew, it was perfectly legal. I never heard that it was contrary to their laws. 2729. Is not tea exported from China to every part of the Eastern Archi- j)elag() in considerable quantities, for the consumption of those countries ? — 1 have always understood so. 2730. If the trade be an illegal trade from China to Sincapore, would it not SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 271 not follow that it must be without any export duties? — Of course there ■> Manii 18.J(). would be no charges but fees to the Mandarins, who will always allow them- selves to be bribed. ^'V- Untr.hinsun. 2731. But, to the best of your belief, it is a legal trade ? — I believe so. 2732. Can other parties procure teas of equal quality at Canton with the teas purchased by the East-India Company ? — The tea required for tlie Indian market is generally of a superior description to that brought to England, and is obtained very readily ; but, of course, the quantity of it is not so great. I have no doubt that any quantity of tea of any quality might be obtained by making engagements for it the year previous. 2733. When you say that the quantity is not so great, is the reason of the quantity being so small that the demand in India is more limited, or that a supply in China could not be obtained.'' — Entirely because the demand is limited. 2734-. Are you then of opinion, that the India Company, if they chose to contract for it beforehand, and to stipulate for it, could procure a better quality of tea than they now habitually import ? — I have always understood so from the Hong merchants and the Chinese : but those finer kinds of tea, either from the depraved tastes of the English, or some other cause, are not relished in this country. 2735. Does any quantity of that very fine tea come here ? — Yes \ there is some proportion of it comes here. 2736. Are you speaking of green or black tea? — Black tea. 2737. Do you know any thing of the tea that comes by land through Russia? — I know nothing of it but from report. I have always understood that it is of a very superior quality to that obtained in this country. 2738. Are the teas you mentioned as being carried to India known by any particular name in this country ? — Yes ; Pahoe or Pekoe is the finest of their teas ; and Pouchong is another, it is a very delicate tea, wrapt up in papers. 2739. Have you ever heard at Canton that the Company procure the best teas for the English consumption, in consequence of paying a higher price than the private-traders ? — They have no rivals in the English market, there- fore, of course, they obtain what teas they please. 2740. Have they not rivals in the Americans and other traders ? — Yes, but the Americans chiefly take the green tea. I think perhaps they may obtain better tea than the Americans, by making engagements for the tea the year previous, and paying a larger price. 2741. Do you think the Company procure their teas at the cheapest price at which that quality of tea could be procured ? — No. I have always under- stood that they pay more for it than the same quality would be paid for by the private merchant. Sometimes, when I have wished to purchase tea of the 272 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 9 Maixli 1830. the Hong merchants, they told me they must wait till their teas had been 7, ^, ■ examined by the Company, and chosen, and then that they would sell me rjj. V { nnt>on. ^vhat remained. They always look upon their trade with the Company as their greatest advantage. 2742. Is not the largest dealer likely to be the best supplied with tea, and to buy it at the cheapest rate ? — I do not think he buys at the cheapest rate, but he will be the best supplied. 2743. Having the greatest command of the market, will he not be able to deal upon better terms? — He could if he tried, but the Company does not try. 274'1'. Why do not they try ? — I do not know : it may not be their interest. 27'i5. With respect to that very fine quality of tea, do you know what would be the price of that as compared with the best sort of black teas that come here? — It is almost at any price ; I have heard of it being as much as four or five dollars in China. 2746. Do you know the prices which the Company pay for their teas ? — I do not know the prices. 2747. How do you know that they pay higher prices than individuals ? — Because, though 1 cannot state the prices now, I heard them at the time, and they appeared to me to be higher. 2748. Might not the quality compensate for the price ? — I do not think it did. 2749. Why not ? — Because it was not as good. 2750. Did you examine it? — Yes ; I have seen the teas myself. 2751. Was the tea offered to you, tea that had been rejected by the Com- pany ? — Yes. 2752. You have stated that the consumption of India is the very finest quality of black tea? — Not the very finest, but superior to that generally brought to England. 2753. Did you pay a higher or a lower price than the Company ? — I sup- pose that I paid a higher price than the Company, because the tea was very superior to that generally bought by them. 2754. When you bought tea which you supposed to be of equal quality, did you pay a higher or a lower price than the Company? — I imagine that I bought it upon better terms then they did. 275.5. Why should the Company pay a higher price than they could obtain the article for ? — I can hardly say. 1 suppose it must be from want ol" suffi- cient diligence in their servants. 275G. Is it considered to be a very profitable thing for one of the Hong to have SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 273 have a share in the Company's trade ? — They look upon it as one of their 9 March 1830. chief profits. 2757. Is the value of that share known? — The precise value is not known, ^"P^' -^«'<"/'«'»*o"- but it is always considered more desirable to obtain than that of any other dealer. 2758. May not that be on account either of the great demand of the Company, or of their giving a better price? — I have understood that it was on account of the better price as well as on account of the greater quantity. 2759. Are you speaking of black or green tea? — Of both ; but in com- paring the prices given by the Company and by private merchants, I am speaking of black tea chiefly. 2760. Is not the consumption of tea in India confined to green tea? — At Calcutta it is, but at Bombay the consumption is almost entirely of black. 2761. Did you ever hear that the value of a share in the supply of black tea to the India Company by the Hong merchants was considered 40,000 dollars ? — I never understood what it precisely was ; I always understood it was considered by them as a bonus beyond what they could get from any private trader. 2762. Supposing that an edict on the part of the Chinese government could be produced, prohibiting the exportation of tea from all parts of that empire excepting Canton, would you not consider that as a strong demon- stration of the anti-commercial spirit of the Chinese government.' — I should consider it as a government not having very enlightened views of com- merce ; but it might be to guard themselves against smuggling from a great number of ports. 2763. You have stated, that you, as an individual, could purchase tea at a cheaper rate of the same quality as the East-India Company, do you attribute that to your paying money instead of paying part in goods, or to any other cause ? — I can hardly say to what cause to attribute it j I only say that it exists. 2764. Do you know the fact, that an individual pays in dollars, and that the Company pays partly in goods? — I know that if you pay in dollars you can buy upon far better terms. 2765. Do not the Hong merchants, when they have obtained a share of the Company's trade, pay a considerable sum to the Hoppo in consideration of that share ? — I do not know. 2766. Do you know, when you yourself transacted business, whether any thing was paid by the Hong to the Hoppo on account of that business ? — I do not know. 2767. Are there any goods that are reckoned prohibited goods in China exported by Uie country ships ? — A large quantity in almost every ship. 2 M They 274 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 9 March 1830. They chiefly consist of cassia and a coarser kind of silk, upon which the duties are too heavy to be taken in the regular way ; they are therefore Capt. Hutchinson, bargained for with the outside naerchants, to be smuggled on board the ship, and it is done with as great facility as the regular trade, the Mandarins being all fee'd and permitting it. 2768. Did you ever know any interruption to this irregular trade?— None whatever ; it is as easily carried on as the regular trade. 2769. Did you ever export silver from China ? — I have taken it, but that has been regularly shipped : that is, I had a chop for it. 2770. Is a large portion of the assorted cargoes exported from China, articles prohibited or subject to such duties that they are generally smuggled ? — Yes. 2771' And that with the knowledge and connivance of the Mandarins ? — Certainly. There is an island near Whampoa called French Island, where those smugglers live. Goods intended to be smuggled are sent to French Island, and you receive notice the night before at what hour the cargo will be brought. The Mandarins then surround the ship, and wait for the smuggling boat : when it comes alongside they send a man in a canoe to count the packages, that no more may be brought to the ship than they have received their fee for. In fact, their whole government is one system of corruption from top to bottom. 2772. Do not you think that the facilities they afford to smuggling arise from an anxious desire to extend their foreign commerce ? — Certainly, in the people ; not in the government, of course. 2773. In the officers of the government, do you attribute it to a desire to obtain a suitable remuneration in return for the sum of money they have given for their offices ? — Certainly. 2774. It being notorious that all those offices are paid for? — So I have always been told. 2775. Do you happen to know what is the freight paid at Canton for the tonnage allowed to the officers in the Company's regular service ? — It has throughout tlie different years I have known it varied from £45 to £60 per ton in the regular Indiamen. 277G. Is that the price at which they can let out a ton of their privilege from Canton to England ? — Certainly. I know it, because when I was medi- tating my return to Europe, I was desirous of sending things by means of the Indiamen, and I did not think proper to do it on account of the tonnage being so high. The captains of the sin'ps generally purchased this tonnage, and sometimes private merchants at Canton, for the purpose of making a remittance to England. 2777' Did you ever know any difficulty in procuring silk, or any other article of China produce, to any extent that was requisite for the demand of the foreign market ? — I believe sometimes there may have been a scarcity of SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 275 of silk, but never to any great extent. With previous notice there certainly 9 Marcli 1830. would be none, from what 1 have always understood. „ , . , -r- , , • ■ r • Capt.Hiitchins(m. 2778. Do you think ir there was a year s previous notice or any increase of demand for tea, say one-third more that now is required, there would be any difficulty in obtaining it ? — I should imagine not, from what I have always understood from the Hong merchants themselves. 2779. When the freight from Canton to England was from £45 to £60 per ton, what was the freight from Canton to Bombay ? — The trade is gene- rally regulated not by the ton but by packages in the country ships ; there- fore I am not prepared precisely to say what it might have amounted to per ton, but I should imagine from £10 to £12 at the very least. 2780. Would that be a profitable freight ?— Certainly. 2781. Do you know what the freight was on board the American ships from Canton to Boston ? — I do not. 2782. Does it consist with your knowledge that there have been any teas exported from Sincapore to other parts of the world? — I do not know. 2783. You have stated that you have known of British ships manned with British seaman having made a voyage to Canton from India : can you state their names and the names of the captains? — I know of two, certainly j and I think there was a third. One of them was the Partridge, and the other was the Hannah. The captain of the Partridge I do not recollect: the captain of the Hannah was named Haythorn. They were between 400 and 500 tons. 2784. Do you know whether the trade of other nations with China derives any assistance from the Company's Factory there? — Not in the least, I should suppose. 2785. They do not interfere either to protect or impede them? — Not in the least. 2786. Therefore, whatever is the state of the foreign trade with China, it grows out of their own arrangements, or the facilities afforded by the Chinese government? — Entirely. 2787. Did you ever have any opportunity of applying to the Factory yourself for any assistance or facilities ? — 1 never had. I have known that other people would iiave been desirous of obtaining their assistance, but did not apply, knowing that the Company's agents would not mix themselves up with any other business than their own. There have been several instances where Hong merchants have failed, and the persons to whom they owed money not being paid their dividends at the times appointed have made applications themselves to the Hoppo at Canton. They collected a number of their friends, and sat themselves down at the city gates for two or three days together, till they obtained an answer. 2788. Notwithstanding those occasional difficulties, you have stated that 2 M 2 the 276 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 9 March 1830 *'^^ trade with China is carried on with more facihty than any country with which you are acquainted ? — 1 think so. Cnpt Hutchinson. 2789- What is the freight at present from Bengal or Bombay to England ? — I had a letter lately from a gentleman at Bombay, who stated that it was £2 a ton, and not obtainable at that. 2790. Supposing the freight from Canton to Bombay to be £10 and from Bombay to England £2, the same goods that are now cliarged at £45 to £6u might arrive by this circuitous trade at the rate of £12? — No doubt. But 1 imagine that the freight of the country ships tliemselves is now very much reduced ; because by the same letter of information before alluded to, I understood that the country ships were going on in a much less prosperous way than when I was there. 2791. When you were in the command of a ship, had you a supercargo, or did you manage the transactions of trade yourself at Canton ? — There was a supercargo at Canton corresponding with the owners at Bombay, sometimes he went in the ship. 2792. Do you know what commission he received for the transaction of the business ? — I do not exactly know ; he was a native merchant, and their commission is much less than that of Europeans. 2793. Was he Chinese r — No, he was a Parsee, a native of Bombay. 2794. You have stated, that you believe the country trade to be in not so prosperous state as it was ; can you assign any reasons for that diminution of prosperity? — I cannot assign any reason but one, that the chief article of export from India is cotton, and the Chinese now grow a greater quantity of cotton than they did formerly, and consequently their demand for that is not so great : a less price is also obtained for it. 2795. You have stated your anticipation of an increase of demand for English manufactures in the event of the trade being tiirown open, should you continue of that opinion if you were informed that the Company already exerts itself without much success to stimulate the consumption of British manufactures ? — 1 should continue of the same opinion, because 1 think private merchants would carry on their trade in a more economical way than the Company do, and therefore they would carry their goods there cheaper. 279C. Are you of opinion, from your observation, that the Company do exert themselves to the utmost of their power ? — I take it for granted, from hearing it now asserted, but 1 do not know that it is so. 2797- You stated that you conceive there would be no difficulty in obtain- ing additional quantities of tea, do you mean black tea or green tea, or both ?— Both J but the black more easily than the green, because the use of green is entirely confined to Europeans and Americans ; consequently it would take some time to extend the plantations from which it is brought. Black tea is used throughout the Ciiinese empire, and what we consume of it SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 277 it is so small a proportion that I have no doubt a miicli larger supply of it 9 Maidi 1830. might be obtained immediately. 2798. Do you think that an increase of quantity might be obtained with- Cajd. Hutchinson. out any increase of price ? — I think it probable that at first the Chinese would demand a greater price for tea, but that would soon find its level, as a larger price could not be given with advantage, and of course, like all other things, tea would become reasonable again. 2799. Do you think the quality of the tea would be affected by the larger demand ? — I suppose it might be, but the same proportion of good and bad tea would come, I dare say. 2800. Do you think as great a quantity of good tea would be procured? — I should think it could. 2801. You stated that you thought if twelve months' notice were given any quantity of tea might be obtained ; are you aware how long it is necessary that the tea-plant should be planted before it produces the leaf? — No. But my reason for supposing that you could obtain any additional quantity is, that our consumption compared with that of the whole empire of China is so small, that 1 have no doubt there is sufficient tea grown without planting any more. 2802. Do you know that as a fact ? — No, I have heard it from the Ilong merchants. 2803. Have you ever heard any estimate of the proportion which the quantity of tea exported bore to the quantity consumed at home? — The Chinese are so ignorant of the state of their own country, that they would have no means of making such an estimation, and no European could, of course. 2804<. Is not it true that tea is the general beverage of all the population of China ? — Certainly. 2805. Did you happen to hear whether the British manufactures found their way into the interior of China, or whether they were confined to the districts adjacent to Canton ? — They find their way into the interior, so far as the carriage of them will allow without rendering them too dear. They are very desirous of obtaining them, I understand, in all parts of China, particularly in many northern districts where they require the woollens for warm clothing. 2806. When the importation of British goods has been much increased has there been any difficulty in disposing of those goods? — I have not been at Canton when such a difliculty has occurred ; but no doubt it would occur, if there was a great influx of goods beyond what was required. 2807- You say that tea rejected by the Company has been offered to you ; have you ever purchased any of their rejected teas? — Yes, I think I have. It has been so far rejected by them, that it has been oflered to them, but perhaps not examined, not being required. 2808. Was 278 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 9 March 1830. 2808. Was the price asked of you the same that had been asked of the East-India Company ? — I understood that I was asked less. I always under- Capt. Hutchinson. gj-Q^^j f^.^^ tj^g Hong merchants that they expect to get a better price for their tea of the same quality from the Company than from any private mer- chant. 2809. You stated that a private merchant could buy tea cheaper and better than the Company's servants buy it ; what reason do you assign for that ? — It would be difficult to assign any reason; I can only state the fact as 1 have understood it. 2810. Are you aware that a proportion of the price of the tea is paid by the Company in articles of British manufacture, and that other traders pay ready money for it ? — No ; other merchants sometimes exchange articles of merchandize for their tea, as well as the Company. 2811. Does not the difference in price depend, in some measure, upon the thing given in exchange ? — It depends so far as this, that if you pay entirely for it in money, you will get it cheaper and better. 2812. You stated that you had seen numbers of junks arrive at Sincapore, bringing tea and other goods from China : do you consider those junks to be sea-worthy? — Perfectly so. 2813. Have you ever heard of any great losses among those ships ? — They are sometimes lost in the typhones in the Chinese seas, in which any ship may be lost. I should think them more liable to be lost than an European- built ship: they are of very rude and primitive construction. 2814. Do you consider them equally safe and commodious for carrying tea as other ships ? — Taking the seasons as they do, and sailing only in the proper monsoons, I see no danger in their vessels ; but, as general sea-boats, they are not to be compared to European ships. 2815. You stated, that if you had dollars you could make a better bargain for the teas than if you had goods; from that it is presumed, there is not a very ready sale for goods ? — I never found any difficulty in disposing of goods, but at the same time I found much greater advantage in having dolhus. I tliink that would be found in any other country. The merchant can do as he pleases with the money, but he can only do one thing with the article of commerce. 28lG. If the goods are desirable in the market, must they not" be as valuable as money? — I cannot decide the point. I can only say, that it appears not to be tlie case with the Chinese. If he have the money he can buy goods or not, as he pleases, but if he have the goods he can only do one thing with them. 28 17. You say that you have sold in China British cotton manufactures which you have bouglit in India, is that trade carried on to any great extent? — No; it would sometimes be a losing trade. It has been done when cotton goods were selling at no great profit in India. 2818. Have SELECT COMMITTEE of thk HOUSE OF COMMONS. 279 2818. Have you known it frequently done? — No; because generally 9 March 1830. goods in India sell to great advantage. They could not generally be carried to China unless they went there direct. <^^P^- Hutchinson. 2819. Do you think that if there were an open trade the Chinese would consume British cotton manufactures to any great extent? — Tiie Chinese admitting them only at one port, of course the consumption could not be extended so far as if they were admitted to other ports, but as tar as they could be carried with advantage, the Chinese would be glad to buy them and use them. 2820. Could not cotton goods be smuggled with advantage to other ports? — There was a difficulty in smuggling at other ports when I was in China, but some ships with opium succeeded to a certain extent. Since I left that country, I understand that they have smuggled to a larger amount, and I suppose other goods as well as opium. 2821. Do you think that the smuggling could be carried on with the same ease at those other ports as at Canton ? — I should think not, because at Canton it is systematised. 2822. Did you carry a cargo of glass bottles to Bombay ? — I did. 2823. Was it a new object of commerce upon that occasion? — Not entirely new ; but it was so far new, that it was with great difficulty I persuaded the agent at Calcutta to put them into the ship. 2824. What was the result of it ? — It was very profitable. 2825. Did you find any difficulty in selling them ? — No ; I wrote to the merchants at Bombay, and they had sold them before I arrived. 2826. What induced you to try the experiment ? — Because I had information from Bombay that bottles were very scarce there, and they were extremely cheap at Calcutta. 2827. Do you conceive that other articles of British produce might, in the same way, be exported beneficially to the China market, by watching the wants of the Chinese and the prices? — If a free intercourse was allowed with China direct from England, I suppose there would be always a sufficient supply of goods in the former country not to require any from India, and therefore the advantage which has existed heretofore of taking goods to China from India, when they were cheaper there, would cease. 2828. You stated that at the time of the men being killed by the Topaze frigate the Company's trade was stopped for a certain time ; and you also stated that, in the event of such an occurrence happening with a country ship, the trade would only be stopped so far as that ship was concerned ? — Unless a man was killed, then I think the whole trade would be stopped. 2829. Do the vessels which take out cotton and other articles from India to China return with full cargoes from China to India? — Always, I believe. There may happen instances when they do not, but I have always known them 280 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: !) March 1830. them to go full : and no doubt a great trade might be carried on by British ships in the same way ; they would do it much more economically than the Capt. Hutchinson, country ships. 2830. When you made a voyage from India to Canton, did the license which you obtained give you the power of touching at any ports which are not intermediate between the port in India and Canton ? — I suppose so. 2831. Should you have considered yourself as empowered by the licence you obtained in India to bring tea from Canton in the country trade, and to have carried that tea to a port which was not intermediate between the two places, such as Mauritius, for example ? — If it was out of the direct course I should not have gone there. 2832. In case of the interruption of the trade, would it require a very large number of junks to bring tea enough to Sincapore for the supply of Europe? — A much larger number than now come, and it could not be immediately done. The junks are large vessels, but as it now takes twenty to twenty-three Indiamen, of 1,200 to 1,300 tons each, to bring us tea every year, and as only six or seven junks visit Sincapore yearly, their number must be much increased before they could bring sufticient lea in case the trade with China was interrupted. I do not, however, myself think any such interruption is to be apprehended, as I have always understood the Chinese government is as anxious to obtain the duties levied upon the tea there as our's is to obtain the duty upon it here. 2833. What number of junks have you ever seen at one time in the Canton river? — I think I have never seen more than two of the large size, but the smaller ones are innumerable. 2834. Do not you think that the number of junks that are constantly in the Canton river at all periods of the year would afford tonnage sufficient to supply Great Britain with tea for ono whole season, at any time? — I have no doubt, if they were permitted to go, but I have some doubt whether they •would be permitted to go with tea ; their object would be suspected. Mr. CHARLES EVERETT called in, and examined. Mr C. Everett. 2835. You are a commission merchant? — I am an American commission merchant. 283G. You have been engaged for eleven years, since the year 1818, in purchasing goods for the China market, on account of American merchants ? — I have. 2837' How have those goods been principally shipped to Canton ? — They have been principally shipped by American vessels direct to China. 2838. Direct from London, or to the United States, and there re-shipped.^ — Principally direct. Some few have been sent to the United States. 2839. Have you not had in your hands a very considerable portion of the American trade in woollens to China from this country? — I have. 2840. Were SELECT COMMITTEE of tiii: HOUSE OF COMMONS. 281 2S10. Were you one of the first agents employed in England in this 9 March 1830. business ?-r-I was. 284.1. In what manner had the Americans formerly made their remittances ^^- ^- ^^'^''^^^ to China? — Principally in specie and opium, from the United Slates and elsewhere. 2842. Have you with you a statement of your annual purchases of woollen and cotton goods? — I have an abstract, marked (A), of all the sliipments 1 have made from the year 1818 to January 18!29, and a table marked (B). [The U'it7iess delivered in the same, which are as follo'ivs :'] (A.) ABSTRACT of SHIPMIiNTS, from 1818 to 1829- Ojihelia : July 1818 . Iioxaiia: Sept. 1S18 Au^Ksta : .luly 1819 . Ophelia : Dec. 1810 llobt. Edwards March 1820 Canton Packet May 1820 ... "Packages. 9 68 1 75 33 264 10 286 50 141 150 2 100 205 6 9 80 Canton : 58 pieces cloths Boston : 29 pieces cloths Gibraltar and Canton: 1,344 pieces bonibazetts . £3,662 5 6 ■20 — camlets 144 2 1,500 — long ells .... 4,607 14 200 — cloths 1,718 5 Canton : 80 pieces camlet £.585 3 9 1,824 — cloths 15,170 4 8 200 — longs ells ... 561 Canton: 2,867 pieces camlets £20,571 5 1,000 — bombazetts . 1,641 15 8 2,820 — long ells ...... 7,865 8 2 786 — cloths 6,518 19 7 100 — cottons 191 5 2 Gibraltar and Canton : 1,000 pieces camlets £7,042 8 8 4,100 — bombazetts. 9,139 6 6 24 — cloths 208 15 10 180 — long ells • 505 6 10 1,388 -. cottons 2,492 5 £. 1,136 s. d. 8 11 672 18 3 10,132 6 6 16,316 8 5 36,788 9 19,388 2 10 £. *. d. 1,809 7 2 26,448 14 11 2N ( Contlnutd. . 282 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS Houqua : July 1820 A\i;l^sta : Nov. 1820 , Cordelia : Jan. 1821 i^autilus : April 1821 Ophelia : Aug. 1821 ... Clarissa : March 1822 Canton Packet ; Sept. 1822... Levant : March 1823 . Packages 180 84 54 117 20 20 554 130 330 74 20 305 23 113 130 177 552 227 32 169 20 5 150 50 172 26 20 32 230 50 240 48 76 40 Canton : 3,600 pieces bombazetts . £8,333 2 8 839 — camlets 5,486 14 10 1,080 — lono- ells .... 3,074 18 2 702 — cloths 5,330 18 4 2,000 — cottons 1,378 13 9 Canton : 670 pieces cottons £1,766 6 5 4,540 — camlets 30,277 9 2 2,700 — bombazetts . 5,927 10 7 1,982 — cloths 17,169 13 6 1,480 — lonjj-ells .... 4,159 17 8 sundries 557 7 5 Canton : 7,235 pieces cottons £8,156 7 8 238 — camlets 868 7 5 Canton : 1,1 25 pieces camlets £7,817 12 2 2,600 — bombazetts . 7,084 17 1 3,540 — Ions ells 9,394 17 6 3,570 — cloths 33,927 16 4 6,800 — cottons 7,967 2 1 sundries 1,741 6 2 Canton : 5,836 pieces cottons £8,836 19 7 400 — bombazetts . 1,090 18 5 100 — lonjrells 321 14 2 1,500 — camlets 9,959 17 6 sundries 3,023 Batavia : 8,590 pieces cottons £8,154 17 1 240 — cloths 1,770 9 6 400 — long ells 957 1 6' sundries 2,469 9 4 Canton: 2,300 pieces camlets , 500 pieces camlets £2,972 12 8 4,800 — long ells 8,209 3 3 2,730 — cottons 5,705 3 586 — cloths 5,459 6 10 sundries .„ 2,089 19 2 £. 5. d. 23,604 7 9 59,858 4 9 9,024 15 1 6,793 11 4 23,232 9 8 13,351 17 5 15,116 5 s. d. 139,639 4 4 190,190 16 28,468 2 5 25.436 4 11 ( Continued, SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 289 Auwiista : May 1823 London Packet July 1823 .. Ha Liverpool... Duxbury : Feb. 1824 Houqua : Auff. 1824 Nautilus : Dec. 1824 London Packet ; Feb. 1825.... Via Liverpool : April 1825 ... Ocean : May 1825 ... Ilotiqua: Feb. 1826 ... Nautilus : March 1826... Packages. 2<.)1 207 8'J 138 .50 10 28 40 392 186 40 391 41 1.50 404 110 559 177 10 81 '25 379 20 5 5 2 17 206 363 448 90 75 Canton : 5,820 pieces long ells 1,770 — cloths..., 5/284 — cottons . 100 tons iron sundries i?12,413 9,352 7,485 1,181 5,637 7 12 16 14 15 Boston: 1,000 pieces long ells 100 — camlets sundries 400 pieces camlets... £2;244 561 1,612 2,122 9 11 4 5 Boston : 1,148 pieces camlets. Boston : 900 pieces cottons . Boston . Gj583 pieces cottons . Boston: 500 pieces long eUs Manilla : 28,087 pieces cottons . 220 — 100 — 50 — 50 — sundries cloths long ells camlets bombazetts. i?22,.525 2,059 206 350 145 5 4 10 23,250 pieces cottons ^^21,499 13 3,660 — long ells 7,440 9 400 — camlets 2,430 11 8 2,640 — cloths. 20,521 11 sundries 1,212 10 6 Canton : 1,.500 pieces camlets ^^8,726 3 2,840 -^ cloths 23,149 2 1 2,200 — long ells .... 4,224 4 4 28,662 — cottons 28,085 18 8 sundries 7,061 12 9 1,826 17 2 2 2 10 Canton : 2,060 pieces camlets ^"1.3,105 17 2,208 — cloths 29,020 2 6 20,890 — cottons 23,192 1 4 1,800 — bombazetts.. 5,120 6 6 sundries 6,927 4 2 £. s. d. .36,071 5 8 6,540 10 9 1,329 17 10 53,104 5 1 71,247 10 443 5,918 2 2 1,047 11 £. s. d. 67,048 1 4 125,681 3 9 27,114 3 4 2N2 77,365 11 6 IJ 7,408 13 2 About cCSO.OOO value of the cargoes of the Nautilus and Houqua were ''purchased in 1825, and the shipment tie- lay ed until 1826. (Continued. 284 EVIDENCE ON EAST.INDIA AFFAIRS Milo: July 1826. .. Danube : Auff. 1826. MUo: Aug. 1827. Houqua : Sept. 1827.. Dorchester : Feb. 1828. .. Augusta : April 1828... Nautilus: July 1828. Packagef* 483 100 40 558 20 289 25 204 50 84 13 399 70 16 140 120 24 150 196 45 100 142 92 14,392 Canton : 3,020 pieces cloths =£"20,699 2 2 2,000 — long ells 3,941 10 6 4,000 — cottons 1,290 4 9 Canton: 3,588 pieces cloths =£"23,881 8 6 200 — camlets 1,200 12,528 — cottons 9,543 18 1 sundries 3,209 14 3 Canton : 11,258 pieces cottons i?ll,990 8 1 500 — camlets 4,.333 12 2 508 — cloths .3,219 16 11 sundries.... 1,441 18 4 Canton : 32,690 pieces cottons =C17,629 8 1 700 — camlets 3,802 19 10 sundries 3,278 12 8 Boston : Sundries Canton : 7,000 pieces cottons £ 7.116 17 2 1,200 — camlets 6,376 2 6 sundries 2,697 19 2 Canton : 1.500 pieces camlets £ 7,808 2 6 1,300 — cloths 10,835 4 ()00 — bombazetts 1,838 17 6 2,000 — long ells ... 3,347 6 6 10,095 ~ cottons 6,414 2 11 sundries 3,021 11 6 £. s. d. 25,930 17 5 37,835 10 20,985 15 6 24,711 7 2,025 8 16,190 18 10 33,265 4 11 Packages. £. t. d. 168,245 13 1 45,6% 16 1 51,481 11 «» 762,118 4 [ London, March 6tli, 1830. Charles Evkrktt. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 285 T3 V Oh :a o s < S P3 ,4-1 N— ' O Cf bo •a CI ■+ - >o •+ Oi c« - f^ CTl - ^ . !>• Th Ti- CO « o CO CO CO CO ^ CO •< *"* f-< w^ r-* fH r- H O 00 en o OD I^ ^ CO ^ CO »H 00 o ( o ■^ CO 05 CO -i- oo o ^ Oi OO 11 H «H 00 • CO CO »-« ^ CO >o »-( c »-• rH a g • et O) o Oi ^ •* ; o o CO o S ■ , o (^ ■* •* C4 c« r~ o o *-3 S D 0? >o cT cT o" 00 r* ■ r^ C35 f.* Cl co CO o o a o • • •■* •■* »H •.H fH to * • 00 o ■* o ■o #-• e< c:i „ 'h • B » Qi CO >o OJ 00 CO «5 CO 00 ■< «n °R^ OS ■M FH >o CO lO CO_ »o r; o «? ■>? oo' CO cR CO CO cS CO r^ e« r< •* >c « o H O C4 y 00 tH o o d CO o 00 >o r4 (n . . >o t^ o> ■H 00 o -* o> t^ CI . a ■-« 00 lO o Oi ■^ "2 ^ <3 lO .H • " ■>*• O) 00 Oi ..N t^ >o CO r^ cd" PU rH »o CO ■* •^ C4 CI ■a o o •I 00 CO CO ■<1- o CO CO o a *^ -i- o - rH O) CO r^ o CD Oi w • *^ ^^ r^ rH *^ ^ '^ • •■^ >-] o , 00 >c CO r- CO •& r^ t^ * r» ,.4 .-I £ • , CO o f-* lO CO CO ■* ■* rl- « H •=5 «rt •H CO r^ a> 0O_ CO o (.4 CO lO »o »o o a • cT CO CO -« Oi - - o c« CO o o o t^ ^ . >o m t^ >o C5 c !-• a «o CO c 3 • •■H •-• F^ • •-< FH w* »3 O e " CT) r^ lO CO CO CO ' >o CO ■* 00 H ■ • CI r* •* .-< >o 00 • >o CO 00 oo w < . CO CO_^ CO Tf co__ CR >J CO oo" >o >o eT ■o rs •1 < U • o CD CO o o 00 o o o t^ 01 • o -* CO o o ■* • o o CO s c< 00_ CO o_^ o " CO CJ^ t^ I^ S • OT CT a ■" CO • cT FH cT ^" 00 tj ei 00 CO ■+ CO ■^ o 1- o CO <— < CO 4^ . t^ 35 J^ CO Oi C3) CO o CO >*■ CO B »-• f* 3 * ^ OT O e en OO oo r^ o IM o o o •o c< s B o 00 CI d t^ VH t^ . CO CO c< »— t < «rt 00_ 00 « (31 r; 00 CO CO C4 oo oo «^ E- rH CO 03 CO FH •>*■ CO >o CO o FN •- O f-« C4 CO r^ •<1- l^ F^ CO £Z >J CI o u c w r^ ■<1- •* O o CO o CO 00 o •o o ?* 00 w a> t^ ■«1- "O 00 • £? o o Ci PH U o^ ■* "2 04 CO -^ Q. «o CO o ■> b; cT CO CO cT >c * <£ M oo" CI DATE. \ 1 1 1 • , 1 I, 1 a * a> o o ^ CI •0 ■*■ ^ CO r^ ai V4 ^« c. o c< ei a c* w C4 « oo oo oo rH CO <-• 00 cc 00 00 oc .H 00 00 9 March 1830. Mr, C. Everett. 28G EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: fl March 1830. These statements show the amount and dates of the shipments by each vessel, also the quantities and value of several leading articles ; distin- Mr. C. Everett, guishing the amount of cottons, woollens, and sundry other goods. I have purposely omitted giving information respecting any new articles prepared by me for the China market, as it might prove injurious to those con- cerned ; and although I am not at present engaged in continuing the ex- tensive trade I have been instrumental in opening for the manufactures of this country, I wish to avoid doing any thing against the interest of my late employers. 2843. What was the greatest year? — The greatest year was 1826: but I would remark that of the amount that year, part of the goods were pur- chased, and they were intended for shipment in 1825, but were detained here in consequence of a failure; the amount was £168,245. 2844. What was the amount in the year 1825? — £7,408. I should say that about £80,000 of the goods exported in 1826 fairly belonged to 1825. 2845. Will you state the amount of each year ? — £. s. d. In 1818 1,809 7 2 1819 26,448 14 11 1820 13,963 4 4 1821 100,190 16 1 1822 28,468 2 5 1823 67,048 1 4 1824 125,681 8 9 1825 7,408 13 2 1826 ., 168,245 13 1 1827 45,696 16 1 1S2S 51,48111 9 £762,118 4 1 2846. What is the aggregate amount of the eleven years? — £762,118. 4«. \d. 2847. Can you state the aggregate amount of each description of goods? — By referring to statement (B) you will find that of woollen cloths the quantity was £231,822. 3s. 6d. ; of Camlets, £152,988. U)S. Id. . 2848. Is the camlet all woollen ? — Yes, the camlets are all woollen. Of long ells, which are also woollens, £74,521. \\)s. ; of cottons, £207,784. 95. \0d. ; and of sundry other articles, £95,000. 15,y. 2rf. 2849- Have you also a statement of the number of pieces of goods of different descriptions, and the progressive diminution in past years? — Statement (\j) shows the number of pieces of the different descriptions. I, have SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 28? Iiave also a paper marked (C), which shows the value of several articles at 3 March, 1830. different periods, from 18'20 to 1830, when compared with 1820. [The -witness deliver ed m the same, which ts as follo'ws .-] (C.) \ STATEMENT showing the Value of Long Cloths, Camlets, and Broad Cloths, at different Periods, compared with 1820. Cotton Long Cloths. In 1821 were 1\ to 5 per cent. less. 1822 __ 5 _ 71 _ 1823 _ 10 _ 15 — 1824 _ 20 — 25 — 1825 — 12i — 15 — 1826 _ 30 _ 35 — 1827 _ 35 _ 40 _ 1828 _ 40 _ 45 — 1829 _ 45 _ 50 _ 1830 — 47| — 50 — Camlets. In 1821 were 5 per cent. less. 1822 — 10 — 1823 — 12i to 15 — 1824 — 15" — 20 — 1825 _ 10 — 121 — 1826 — 17i — 20 — 1827 — 25 — 30 — 1828 _ 30 _ 33 — 1829 — 37i — 40 — 1830 are 42 — 45 — Broad Cloths, suitable for the China Trade. In 1821 were 5 to 7? per cent. less. 1822 — 7i — 10 — 1823 — 10 — 1824 — 12i to 15 — 1825 — 5—10 — 1826 _ 35 _ 40 — 1827 _ 40 _ 42 — 1828 — 42 — 45 — 1829 _ 45 _ 47 _ 1830 are 45—50 — It appears from the above, that nearly double the quantity of goods may bo bought at the present prices for the sum paid in 1820 ; therefore, to form a correct estimate (tf the trade whh China, it will be requisite to compare with the quantities, and not the amount shipped. Long ells are 55 per cent, lower than in 1820. London, March 8th, 1830. Charles Evkrett. M>: C. Eicrett. 288 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: !» Mm\\\ 1830. 2850. Has there been a regular decrease in price from 1820 to the present time? — Excepting the year 1825, when there was a small advance. 2851. Therefore the increase in the quantity of goods exported would be mucli more tlian would appear upon the increase of tlie value ? — My calcu- lations are from 1820 to this date. £100 at the present time would buy twice as many goods as it would in 1820. 2852. Have you any doubt, from the experience you have had, that if the existing restrictions were removed, the trade to China in British manufac- tures might be materially increased? — I have no doubt the trade might be increased to a very considerable extent by proper management, if the restric- tions wore removed. 2853. Have you found the trade in British woollens with Canton a profit- able trade? — I am not able to answer that question fully, as I have not known what the goods have actually brouglit ; but I suppose, from general information, they have been profitable, as the shipments being continued is the strongest proof that can be offered. 2851'. Do you consider that the American trade in woollens has been generally profitable? — I do. 2855. To what do yon attribute that, when the Committee hear from the East-India Company that their trade in woollens has been a losing trade? — I cannot account tor the East-India Company's losing money on woollens. 2856. Are the woollens which have been generally sent out by the Ame- rican traders of a different description, or of a superior quality, to those sent out by the East-India C^ompany ? — I can only answer for what I pur- chased myself; some of the articles have been superior to the East-India Company's. 2857. Have you ever bought any of the rejected cloths of the East-India Company? — Not for many vcars, excepting a few pieces; I speak of cloths only. 2858. Have you any reason to suppose, from what you have heard from your American correspondents, that they experience any difiiculty in carry, ing on the trade at Canton ? — I do not understand that there is any difl!iculty in carrying it on. 2859. And that so long as you were connected with it, they made it, upon the whole, a generally profitable trade ? — 1 believe so. 28G0. Has that trade fallen off lately ? — The trade in manufactured goods has been continued lately by the house of Baring and Company. 2861. Has the trade decreased or not lately ? — I believe that it has in- creased the last year. 2862. Can you state as to the two preceding years ? — I should think it had increased, as considerable quantities have gone from Liverpool, shipped on account of another party, since 1821, by WiUiam and James Brown and Company, 2863. It SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 289 2863. Is it within your knowledge that the trade has increased ? — I refer you to my statements (A) and (B), respecting the shipment of woollens and cottons. 2864. Have you a statement of the export of foreign woollens, cottons, and metals from the United States to China? — Yes, I have; it is drawn up from an official document, printed by order of Congress, for the years 1827 and 1828, ending the 30th of September in each year. [The witness delivered in the same, "which was read, as follows ;] AN ACCOUNT of the Value of Foreign and Domestic Woollens, Cottons, and Metals, exported from the different Ports of the United States of America, in the years ending- the 30th of September 1827, and 30th of September 1828; extracted from a General Statement respecting the Import and Export of Goods, Wares, and Merchandize, printed by order of Congress, 10th February 1829. 1827 : 1828: Foreign. American. Foreign. ^ American. Woollens, a... ,...,,, 19,264 76,274 3,398 4,114 3,570 178,131 9,388 4,250 7,210 304,789 3,574 14,885 11,819 2,056 69,051 Cottons, white & col cured Cotton twist..., 14,981 Iron in pigs, bars, & bolts Copper in pigs and sheets Tin plates......... Lead Value in dollars ... 284,751 13,638 313,384 14,981 2865. Has any cotton-twist been sent from this country through you ? — A small quantity some years ago. 2866. Has any been sent lately ? — I believe it has been shipped lately, but not by me. 2867. Have you acted for houses in this country ? — I have acted under the direction of houses in this country, but for account of American houses. 2868. Have you been employed by the house of Baring and Company ? —I was employed by Bates and Baring, now belonging to the house of Baring and Company. 2869. Do you know whether other persons besides yourself have been employed as agents for purchases of this description ? — I understand that Barings themselves have been purchasing goods for four vessels; three of them have gone in 1829. 1 can state the names of the vessels: the Milo, from London; the New England, from Liverpool; and the Margaret Forbes, from London. There is another cargo in the London Docks. 2870. Were you employed in selecting any part of those cargoes ? — No. 9 Marcli 18;30. Mr. C. Everett. 20 2871. Were 290 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 9 March 1830. 2871. Were you employed in 1829 by any other persons in the selection -- ~~r of cargoes for China? — No, excepting a small amount, which I suppose Mr. C. Everett. ^^^^ j^^ ^j^^ ^^^ England. 2872. Do you conceive the variation in the amount of exports, in different years that you have stated, to have arisen from the variation in the amount of the trade itself) or merely from a variation in your agency for that trade? — I purchased during the years mentioned the whole of the goods that the parties had from England, excepting about £8,000 of woollens, and £2,000 of cottons. 2873. You do not think they have bought any thing through any other channel ? — Not any thing, except about £8,000 of woollens and £2,000 of cottons. 2874.. Have not there been other houses shipping for American account to China, besides those who had employed you in the selection of their goods ? — I have informed you that some goods went through Messrs. Brown's of Liverpool, for another party ; that house and my employers are the two principal parties concerned in the trade from this country to China. I know of no others of much importance. 2875. You have stated, that you have upon some occasions bought goods refused by the Company ; were those refused by the Company on account of the quality, or that they did not want any more of that description of goods ? — I have bought very few rejected goods, except the article of long elis : those were rejected for being a little light in weight, or any other point which does not exactly come up to the Company's standard. If a long ell is too Jine, it would not weigh enough, and of course would be rejected, so that we may select the best goods from the rejected ones. 2876. Do you consider that the long ell is the worse for the China market for being too fine ? — No, I consider it much better. 2877. Do you consider yourself able to make a better selection of goods for the China market than the East-India Company? — That would be too much for me to presume. 287s. Do you know how the Company purchase their goods ? — The}' gene- rally purchase by contract, which is not an advantageous way of purchasing. 2879- In the course of making your purchases, have you found the Company in your way in the same description of goods that you were look- ing for? — No. I have known that when tlic Company offer a contract, say for camlets, or any particular description of goods, there has been a meeting of the manufacturers, and they have fixed the price at which they should tender at, and 1 have met with the same difficulty myself in making pur- chases. When it rvas known that I wanted a large quantity, I found that the manufacturers sometimes coml)ined to hand me a price ; and I have had considerable difficully in counteracting the effects of combinations, not only in purchasing the article itself, but in cvci-y part of the finishing. 2880. Is SELECT COMMITTEE ok the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 291 2880. Is not that the effect of any large purchaser going into the market •> Muicli IS3J. at any time? — It would be the effect if known. The Company give public ~ — tenders; but if / go into the market, I can take care the quantity that I ^^''' ^ ^■^"^''ftt. wish to purchase is not known. 2881. Are you not of opinion that, practically considering the mode in which the Company make their purchases, you make your purchases upon more favourable terms? — I have good reasons to suppose that my goods were purchased cheaper than the Company's. 2882. Are the Americans desirous of purchasing finer goods than what are purchased by the East-India Company ? — When I had the management of it, my object was to get better goods than the Company's, and in most articles I have succeeded. 2883. You think, upon a general average, your goods are of at least as good quality as those of the India Company? — Yes, they have been proved so. 2884. In their respective kinds ? — Yes. I must except one article ; I should think the Company's long ells were superior to those I shipped. 2885. Is the Company's mark ever used in any way by the Americans ? — The Company's mark I never use on the outside packages. We have copied the manner of packing and the making-up of the goods, and the number of pieces in the package, but there is never any mark on the bales, at least not of late years, which would appear like the Company's. 2886. Are the Committee to understand that the quantity of goods ex- ported from America to Canton are altogether goods exported from this country on American account? — It is possible that some of the articles included in those may have been shipped from this country on English account. 2887. You have stated that the Company's long ells are better than the long ells you have purchased ; could not you get as good long ells .- — I con- sider that they have had them dyed and finished rather superior than what I have done. I could certainly procure the same, or even better quality than the Company's, if it were required. 2888. Do you think that an advantage on the part of the Company? — The quantity of long ells we have shipped is very small in comparison with theirs. 2889. When did the Americans begin to export British manufactures to Canton ? — In 1818 I commenced the business. 2890. Can you state any reason why they did not do so before r — It was because the prices were too high to execute the orders that were sent for them ; there was a small quantity of goods purchased in England and after- wards returned to the United States from China as unsaleable, in consequence of the quality not being suitable for the market. 2 2 2891. In Mr. C. Everett. 292 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 9 March 1830. 2891. In what years have you known the woollens returned from China? —Between 1816 and I8I7. 2892. Are you aware of what the mark on the Company's cloths is ?— Yes ; I do not know exactly what they put on the bales ; a divided heart, I believe, and some letters. 2893. Did you in the goods you have shipped put on a mark resembling it ? — I may have done so many years back. 2894. Since 1818 have you done it? — It is barely possible; the few first shipments I recollect were marked with a mark somewhat similar to the Company's. 2895. Have you done so in the later shipments ? — No. 2896. How long have you discontinued it? — I can hardly recollect. I am speaking of the outside packages ; in the inside packages we have in some degree imitated the Company, but it is not the same. 2897- Did you try to assimilate your mark to that of the Company's for the purpose of making it appear that they were Company's goods? — It was necessary to have them marked in that way, that they might be known as that description of goods, to give them a greater currency. 2898. Why did you discontinue the practice? — By the orders of my em- ployers. 2899. Do you know whether the goods are marked in the same manner that are sent from America ? — I do not know. 2900. Were they supposed to fetch a higher price in China in consequence of that mark ? — I do not know what the reason was for putting it on. 2901. But you had been desired to make it similar? — I acted according to directions. 2902. Were not you desired to make those marks as near as possible to the Company's mark ? — In respect to the manner of packing and marks on the goods, I was. The cloths bought by me are very different from the Company's, they measure two to five yards longer. I have not for five or six years marked a package any way like the East-India Company's. 2903. Before that, was it not the practice to do so? — In the first few shipments it was customary to do so, but I have not done it for many years. 2904. Did you ever do that for Barings and Company ? — No ; I should have said it was Bates and Baring that 1 did business for. 2905. You have stated that you thought the cloths you bought were better than those of the East-India Company ; if that be so, what interest could you have in packing them in the same manner as those of the East- India Company ? — Because the Chinese have been accustomed to see them in that manner. 2906. If your cloths were of a superior quality, would not that have been better Mr. ('. Everett. SELECT COMMITTEE ok the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 293 better shown by not imitating the East-India Company? — I always thought 9 March 1830. so myself, but my correspondents thought otherwise. 2907. You stated that in the course of eleven years you have exported manufactured goods for American houses to the amount of £762,118; do you know whether to those American houses it was a losing or an advan- tageous trade ? — I have no doubt it was an advantageous trade. 2908. Were there many of those houses interrupted in the course of their affairs afterwards? — The principal part of those purchases were for one house, who are now very rich. 2909. What is their name ? — Perkins and Company, residing at Boston ; one of the partners is here now. 2910. Which? — Mr. Cushing. 2911- Are not they supposed to have made their fortune in the China trade? — There is no doubt of it. 2912. Have you any means of knowing who they traded with in China, whether the outside merchants or the Hong merchants? — Principally, I be- lieve, with Howqua and Manhop. 2913. What is the general agency charge in this business? — I have re- ceived one and a quarter per cent, commission on the purchase. 2914. Is that all you receive? — Yes. 2915. Do you know whether the house of Perkins is looking with anxiety to the decision of the question, whether it shall still be a monopoly trade or an open one? — I understand that they are about giving it up. 2916. AVhy? — I cannot answer for what reason ; that is what they tell me. 2917. Do not Perkins and Company still continue traders ? — Yes. 2918. But this particular branch of trade you understand, they are intend- ing to give up ? — That is what I have heard. 2919. Do you know that Mr. Cushing has made a large fortune and has retired from business? — Mr. Cushing is worth perhaps £500,000, and is re- tiring from business ; he has been the acting partner in China for about twenty-five years. 2920. Have you opened any correspondence with any new American house in consequence of Perkins's house intending to give up the trade? — No. 2921. Have not you heard that the house of Perkins and Company owe their chief fortune to the opium trade? — To the China trade ; the opium trade is, of course, included in it. 2922. From your knowledge of the trade, as far as you have been em- ployed as a commission agent, are you of opinion, that if we had as free an intercourse with China as the Americans have, the trade between England and China would be the principal trade carried on with China? — I have no doubt Q94. EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 9 Maicli 1830. doubt but it would be very beneficial to England to have a free trade ; but Af r' r « whether it would be the principal trade with China, I cannot tell. lur. C. EvercU. t i ' 2923. Do you think any other country would be a rival with this country in tlie export of manufactured goods to China ? — No, decidedly not at pre- sent. But the Germans are improving in their manufactures, and may soon rival yours in woollens, unless your ports are opened for the produce of the Continent, so as to equalize the price of provisions. And if you would admit American flour, &c. it would greatly increase the export of goods to the United States as well as China, and by advancing the prices of their broad stuffs, complete the overthrow of their cotton and woollen factory. 2924. Is there any nation now that rivals the British in the China trade ?— - Not that I am aware of, excepting the Americans. 2925. Do they rival the English trade now? — Certainly they do. 292C.T0 any great extent ? — There is no doubt they are carrying on a very large trade with China. 2927. Is any other trade with China equal to the English trade ? — Not in manufactured goods, certainly. Mr. ABRAHAM DIXON called in and examined. .^/'. yJ. Dixon. 2928. You are a foreign commission agent residing at Leeds? — Yes. 2929. In what other lines of business have you been employed? — I have resided in Leeds about two years ; seven years previous I resided in Hud- dersfield, in the same line of business. 2930. Did you ever carry on business as a Blackwell-hall factor and mer- chant? — From the year I795 to the year 1822 I resided in London, and during the whole of that time was engaged in the business of a Blackwell- • hall factor and merchant. J 293L What is a Blackwell-hall factor? — An agent for the sale of cloth manufactured in the West of England. 2932. During any portion of that time were you interested in a concern in Yorkshire, for the manufacture and dyeing of coarse cloth for the use of the army and the East-India Company? — I was. 2933. Have you had any dealings with the East-India Company in cloths? — From the year I79.5 to 1807 I was clerk with a Blackwell-hall factor, who also was connected in the same trade ; and from ISO7 to 1822 I carried on business myself^ in conjunction with other parties, as a Blackwell-hall factor and merchant, and also up to the end of 1825. 293'1<. With what articles of woollen have you been in the habit of supply- ing the East-India Company? — All the different kinds of cloths: they buy superfine or Spanish stripes, white and stripe list cloths, medley cloths, and kerseymeres. 2935. Do SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 295 2935, Do you consider that there are any other descriptions of cloths, be- ^ March 1830. sides those exported by the East-India Company, which are suited to the China market? — Formerly, to my knowledge, a fine and stouter description of cloths was sent by the Russians to China, which I occasionally supplied to merchants in St. Petersburgh and Moscow ; also a coarser and finer de- scription of cloth than what the East-India Company generally send out to China, is sent out by the Americans. 293G. Do you believe, from any circumstances within your knowledge, that the very coarsest descriptions of cloths might be exported to China with advantage? — I believe, from the information 1 have had from Americans and others, and also from the evidence that was given before the House of Commons by Mr. Grant, and also by Mr. Roberts, in 1821, that the very coarsest description of cloth that is manufactured in this country, which can be dyed the colour that is required in China, would be saleable to a greater extent than any other description of woollen in that country ; for both those gentlemen stated, that the bulk of the Chinese have it not in their power to purchase the cloth which the Company send out, and for that reason I should suppose the coarsest cloth would be the most suitable. 2937. Do you know anything of the nature and extent of the trade in woollens carried on by Americans between this country and China? — Yes, I do. 2938. What are the descriptions of woollens chiefly sent out by the Ame- ricans? — The same sort sent out by the East-India Company ; also a fine and stouter cloth, and also a coarser and a lower priced cloth. 2939. In the finer descriptions of cloths, do you conceive that the article sent out by the American merchants is equal to that sent by the East-India Company? — They send a considerable quantity of better quality than the East-India Company send out. 2940. Is that which they send of the same description of an equal quality with what the Company send ? — Yes, indeed, exactly the same. 2941. Do they obtain it as cheap? — I believe they do; and I may say, perhaps more correctly, that they obtain it cheaper. 29i2. Do you consider that they have any greater facilities, and what are those facilities? — The principal advantage that the Americans have over the East-India Company is, in having the cloths from Leeds, where they are dyed a great deal cheaper than in London. 2943. Have they also any advantages resulting from late improvements in the manufacture, which the East-India Company, by their mode of pro- ceeding, are debarred from possessing? — Very considerable improvements have been made in the manufacture of fine cloth at Leeds of late years, all of which the Americans have the advantage of, whilst the East-India Com- pany are debarred from it, from the nature of their contracts and the mode in which they purchase their cloth. 2944. Will Mr. A. Diron 296 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDI A AFFAIRS: y March 1830. 2944. Will you state in what mode the East-India Company make their i^ TTi- „, purchases of cloths? — Always by tender and contract. Mr. A. Dixon. ^ •' ■^ , ^ , ,. Q94f5. Do you consider that to be an advantageous mode of dealing?— No, I do not. In consequence of the objectionable clauses which are in those contracts, the parties tendering for the cloth, in order to save them- selves, must make an addition to the price, in order to cover the rejections which they are subject to, and other inconveniences and expenses which they are at. Q94f6. Is the decision of the overlooker of the Company upon the goods which are sent up final, or is there any appeal from it ? — There is no appeal whatever from it. 2947. Where is the objection made when the goods are sent to London ? — In London, by the overlookers employed by the East-India Company. 2948. Then the goods are sent up, and if they are not strictly in accord- ance with the terms of the contract, they are rejected in London? — They are. 2949- The manufacturer then incurs the expense of their transfer to London ? — Yes. 2950. Is there any difficulty in obtaining a sale for rejected cloths? — Sometimes there is a difficulty, at other times not ; it depends upon the nature of the demand. Formerly the rejections of the East-India Company were sold to the Mogadore Jews, and nearly altogether used for that trade ; but lately a considerable quantity has been sold to private traders trading to India and China. 2951. Is there also an inconvenience arising from the mode of conducting business by the East-India Company, from their goods being transmitted through agents in London, and an additional expense incurred by the com- mission paid to them ? — Certainly, that adds to the expense of the goods. During the time I was engaged in business in London, the charge for such business was three per cent., which was charged to the manufacturers for de- livering the goods and attending to the necessary business. 2952. Were there any other fees to be paid ? — There were fees also paid at the India House. 2953. Can you state the amount of those? — The proportion of the fees is different; sometimes they were 6d. per cloth, but sometimes the fees are Is. and even 2s. per piece. 2954. In the rejection of their cloths you stated that the overlooker's de- cision was final ; is that decision often made on trifling grounds .'' — I have understood that the overlookers have strict orders to attend to the contract, which states, in speaking of the fine cloths, that each cloth must weigh thirty-two pounds, and that if it is under that weight he has a power of rejecting it. 2955. Then, though the rejection must be according to the strict letter of SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 297 of the contract, it still may be on very vexatious grounds to the manufac- 9 March 1830 turer ? — Certainly. ^95G. Is it the case to such a degree, that manufacturers generally ^^' ^' ^^^'"*- exhibit a decided preference for dealing with any other customer rather than the East-India Company ? — It is. A great many of the most extensive manufacturers in Yorkshire will not enter into contracts with the East-India Company, nor supply them with cloth under those contracts. 2957. Supposing the cloth should be short of weight, would that be a ground for rejection. ? — Certainly. 2958. Would you consider that to be any deterioration to the quality of the cloth ? — In making a large quantity of cloths, it is impossible to have them all exactly the same weight ; some will be a little over and some will be a little under. 2959. Supposing a private merchant to take a quantity by contract, what would be his practice supposing he found a proportion under weight ? — He would take it. 2960. Would he take it without any reduction of price ? — If the difference was not much, he would take it without any alteration of price, because if some are a little thinner, others would be a little stouter. 2961. You consider this, then, to be a vexatious ground of rejection on the part of the Company ? — Certainly. 2962. Yet to this sort of rejection their overlookers are tied down by their rules, and they can exercise no discretion ? — I believe not. 2963. Are the cloths delivered to the Cfimpany dyed or undyed ? — They are delivered both in a dyed and in a white state The West Country cloths are generally delivered white, and the Yorkshire generally dyed. 2964. Are they compelled to be dyed in London ? — Those which they receive in a white state are all dyed in London, the others are dyed and finished in Yorkshire. 2965. Is the operation of dyeing more expensive in London than it is in the country? — Much more so, 2966. In what degree? — I have a list of the dyeing prices in Yorkshire for the principal colours which the East-India Company purchase, and also of the London prices. The London price for dyeing Spanish striped cloths purple is 2s. 4cJ» 1830. Americans. ,, "~~~ Mr. A. jyixon. 1824-5 Broad Cloths Pieces 10,257 Camlets 4,338 Long ells 7,842 Bombazets 672 23,159 1825-6 Broad Cloths 12,067 Camlets 4,290 Long ells 10,620 26,977 1826-7 Broad Cloths 14,064 Camlets 3,272 Long ells 8,040 Bombazets 1,800 27,176 1818-19... Broadcloths 769 Camlets 4,188 4,957 1826-27 27,176 1818-19 4,957 Increase 22,219 2994. Have you any knowledge of" the trade in woollens carried on by the Russians with China ? — During the former part of the time I carried on business in London, I executed several orders both for St. Petersburgh and Moscow ; they were British woollens, which I afterwards found were in- tended for the China trade, though I did not know it at the time. 2995. Of what description of woollens? — The colours were much the same as those exported by the East-India Company, but the quality of the cloth was considerably thicker. 2996. Up to what period was this? — Previous to the year 1812. 2997- What was the price of cloth at that time, as compared with the price now ? — The cloth sent out to Russia was from 17^. to ^05. per yard, and the same quality certainly may be procured now at from 105. to 12*. or even less. 2998. How do you account for the fact that that trade is not now carried on from England? — From the heavy duties which have been laid by the Russian government upon English cloths, and a reduction of duty upon Prussian clotlis : indeed, English cloths are not allowed to be imported into Russia for transit at all, whilst the Prussian cloths are allowed to be entered for that purpose at a very trifling duty. 2999. Do you know the amount of duty in Russia ? — I cannot state it exactly j 304 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA y\FFAIRS: 9 March 1830. Mr. A. Dixon. exactly ; I believe the duty upon fine English cloths amounts to between 6s. and 7^. a yard ; upon Prussian cloths it is not near half that amount. 3000. Previous to the imposition of this duty, can you state to what amount that trade was ever carried on ? — No, I cannot, I was engaged in it but to a very small extent. There were some houses that were nearly alto- gether employed in preparing cloths for that purpose ; Messrs. Austins' and Messrs. Sheppards' houses. 3001. Has there been any disposition shown lately by the Hanse Towns to engage in the woollen trade with China? — Tiiey have lately appointed a consul, who is now on his passage to Canton for the purpose of introducing Continental manufactures into China; woollens particularly. They have not yet commenced business ; but he has gone over for the purpose of obtaining information, and by the report which he gives the shipments will be guided. 3002. At present do you understand that they have every confidence that that trade may be carried on with success ? — They have. 3003. Do you know what are the prices of the same kind of goods at the Hanse Towns as compared with the British? — Till within this last two or three years the fine English cloths were not at all saleable on the Continent ; but very considerable improvements have been made in the manufacture of cloths in this country, particularly in Leeds, and they have lately found their way all over the Continent ; they have been sold in considerable quantities for the fairs at Leipsic and at Frankfort, and in other parts of Germany. 3004. Do you think there is any probability that English woollens may find their way into China by shipment from the Hanse Towns ? — 1 think it is very probable. 3005. Supposing the trade were thrown open, do you think the English merchants would have a greater advantage in sending out woollens to China than the German merchants and the Hanse Towns merchants? — They would have the advantage of the difference of expense in transporting them to Hamburgh and other places. 300G. Would not tlie price give the English merchants an advantage over the other merchants? — Certainly. 3007. In what degree would individuals purchase woollens at more advantage than the Company? — In consequence of the objectionable clauses which arc in the contracts of the East-India Company. The manufacturer must always provide for those, and in consequence he lays an additional price ; at least I always found it necessary to do so when I was engaged in the trade. 3008. Do you think he would prefer selling to an individual at five per cent, less j)rice than to the Company at their price ? — It depends in some measure upon the nature of the cloth which is wanted. In some instances five Mr. A. Dixon. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 305 five per cent, more would be considered about a fair price ; but in others, 9 Maicli 1830. perliaps two and a half, or even less than tiiat. 3009. Upon the wliole, would three to four per cent, place the two upon a level ? — About three to four per cent. 3010. Does that include the difference with respect to the d3'eing? — No, that is quite independent of the saving in dyeing. In scarlet, the difference betwixt being dyed in London and Yorkshire would make a saving on the cost of the cloth of 13 per cent. ; in purple of 17 per cent. ; and in mazarine blue it would be 20 per cent. Altogether, in having Spanish stripe cloths dyed and finished in Yorkshire instead of London, and buying them as a private merchant does, about 15 per cent, on the average would be saved in the six colours, of which the largest quantity is exported by the East- India Company. 3011. Then, in your opinion, an individual can be supplied in Yorkshire with cloth already dyed about 15 per cent, cheaper than the Company? — If he gets his cloth ready dyed in Yorkshire, and the Company dye theirs in London, he would have that advantage over them in the colours, of which the greatest quantity is exported. 3012. Do the Company dye theirs in London ? — By far the greater part. 3013. Have you the means of knowing that the Company do dye a large proportion of their cloths in London? — I have; and I have understood that lately some have also been dyed in Gloucestershire. 3014. Do you mean of their Yorkshire cloths? — No, the Yorkshire cloths are mostly dyed in Yorkshire. 3015. Do you consider that cheaper mode of dyeing in Yorkshire to pro- duce as good a colour as the dearer mode in London ? — Equally so. 3016. Do you attribute, in any degree, the benefit derived by the Americans from the woollen trade to their smuggling into China? — In consequence of the evidence given before the House of Commons, I made the observation to several Americans, with a view of ascertaining if it was ever practised, and I am told not. 3017. Have you the means of knowing whether, with all these advantages, there has been any increase in the quantity of consumption in China ? — Not having the amount of what the Americans have exported lately, I cannot correctly answer that question ; but it would appear, up to the year 1S27, that there is a little increase of the American importations into Canton, but it is not much, compared with the two previous years. 3018. Is the dyeing as good in Leeds as in London? — Equally so. 3019. As you have a very general knowledge of the manufacture and trade in cloth upon the Continent, is it your opinion that in any part of the Continent a competition could be entered into with the cloth furnished by Great Britain for China?— I should be inchned to think not at present. 2 Q A few 306 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 9 March 1830. Mr. A. Dixon. A few years ago they had advantages over us; but I think they have not now, owing to the improvements which have been made in the manufacture in this country and the low price of the raw material. 3020. What parts of the Continent do you think most likely, according to the present state of the manufacture, to enter into competition with this country ? — The woollen manufacture of Saxony I should consider the most likely to injure us. 3021 . Is that of the lower or higher quality of cloth? — The lower and the middle qualities of cloth. 3022. Is it not the case, that in former times there was a considerable manufacture of cloth in Silesia, which was adapted especially for the Russian trade ? — I believe so. 3023. Does that manufacture still exist and flourish to the same extent? — I believe it does. I have not had any information to the contrary, excepting this last year; I am told that they have not been able to sell so much cloth as tliey formerly did on the Continent, in consequence of the introduction of the Enghsh. 3024. Are you aware of the state of the manufacture of cloth generally in Russia? — Since my arrival in London I have been informed that the principal and the most extensive manufacturer of woollen cloths in Russia has failed ; a manufacturer who went from the West of England for the purpose of carrying on the woollen manufacture in Russia, and found that it would not answer his purpose to do so, and in consequence gave up the idea altogether. 3025. Where was the manufacture in Russia which has failed ? — In St. Petersburgh, or the immediate neighbourhood. 3026. Are you aware that the cloth manufacture in Russia is protected and fostered very much by the government ? — Yes. 3027= Then you attribute the failure of the trade in cloth to Russia to two causes, to the heavy duties that are laid upon British cloth, and the lower duties which are imposed upon Prussian ? — Yes. 3028. Are you not aware there are cloths of a particular quality and colour admissible into Russia at a lower duty than cloths generally? — Yes. 3029. Do you know whether the cloth that the Russian soldiers are clothed with is manufactured by native manufacturers? — I have made inquiries regarding that subject, and 1 cannot get satisfactory information upon it; by some 1 have been told that it is manufactured in the country; by others, that it is manufactured in Breslau and tiie neighbourhood. 3030. Can you state whether the export of woollens to India, since the trade was opened in 1814, has increased to any great degree.^ — To a very great extent indeed. 3031. Much Mr. A. Dixon. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 30? 3031. Much more than to China? — Much more than to China. The 9 March 1830. exportation amounted, for the year ending 5th January 1829, to 30,555 pieces of cloth. 3032. Can you state what it was in 1814 ? — {For the answer to this ques- tion, see Mr. Dixon^s evidence of Thursday the 11 Ih of March.) 3033. Can you state what were the articles which composed the large order of which you have spoken, which is now being executed in Yorkshire ? — Cloths of different descriptions, similar to what the East-India Company sent out. 3034. Are you aware whether there have been any new articles of manu- facture of late years exported by the Americans, that are likely to suit the habits of the Chinese ? — There is one now preparing in Yorkshire ; and from the information which I have upon the subject, I am told that the demand is likely to be immense, both in India and China. It is a woollen cloth made with a cotton warp ; it may be made extremely thin, and at the same time much stronger than a woollen cloth of perhaps three times the substance. 3035. Is there an order for that to any extent now in execution ? — It is not in a situation yet of receiving orders for it, but it will be very shortly. 3036. Have you any means of knowing what the Chinese think of this cloth ? — It has been shown to gentlemen who have been in China and also in India, and their opinion is what I have just stated. 3037. You have stated, that at the India-House fees are paid upon the examination of the cloths, and that sometimes 6d., sometimes I5., sometimes as high as 25. ; are those fees arbitrary, or how are they regulated ? — They are always stated by the Company in their contracts. 3038. So that they are known by the manufacturers before-hand ? — Yes. 3039. Is the commission also known ? — It is. Jovis, 11° die Martii, 1830. WALTER STEVENSON DAVIDSON, Esq. again called in, and examined. 3040. You were the senior partner of one of the two leading houses of n March 1830. business in Canton ? — I was. 3041. Will you state any advantages or disadvantages which, in your ^^ ^- ^^vidsm, opinion, result to the British trade generally in China, from the exist- ence of the East-India Company under the present regulations? — I believe I can state both advantages and disadvantages ; and they divide themselves into two heads, that is to say, commercial and political. I shall commence with the commercial. The influence of the East-India Company, who can and do act with unity and vigour, form a counterpoise of inestimable value against the Hong monopoly, which individuals could not form. The 2 Q 2 absence 808 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 11 March 1830. }y. S. Davidson, Esq. absence of this counterpoise would have the direct effect of decreasing the prices given for all the imports, and of increasing the prices demanded for all the exports. The Company's support of bankrupt merchants (for the greater number of the Hong in my time were so), by its advances on teas, has enabled the consignees of the country trade to do what could be done in no other country with which I am acquainted, namely to deal systemati- cally with bankrupts, and thus obtain much higher prices for their merchan- dize. During the latter part of my stay in China, although so much pro- perty passed through my hands, I scarcely ever thought of dealing with a solvent merchant, because the consequence would have been a great loss to my principal; and this was all in consequence of my knowledge that I had the Treasuiy and the influence of the powerful East-India Company at my back. Another advantage of the East-India Company in China was the facility to remitters, through bills on their Indian govern- ments, and by which both my constituents and myself sometimes obtained a better exchange than by any merchandize we could ship. I have known large sums of money which were due to me by the bankrupt merchants, and which I could obtain in no other way, come direct from the Company's Hong to my Hong, being advances obtained from the Company's servants. I have also received large sums of money in bills on England, obtained in the same manner, after urgent solicitation on the part of the merchants to the supercargoes ; which species of remittance, in those days, went by a technical name, which has quite escaped my recollection. I should, perhaps, have stated earlier, that on the first entering of the ships, if I had not resolved to deal with those insolvent merchants, I should have found the greatest difficulty in getting the ships secured, because the extortions of the Chinese government are always proportioned to the wealth of the party who secures the ship. As to British subjects, I conceive that such security of person and property is not to be lost sight of as is afforded by a public body, having every season from eighteen to twenty ships of force at their command, the influence of vvhich was always in my time extended in favour of British commerce, save and except on that of the prohibited article opium. Those are the leading advantages that now occur to me of a com- mercial nature. Politically, I think that all Englishmen owe the Company's servants in Canton a debt of gratitude for their influence over the last ambassador that went from this country to China, in inducing him to abstain from performing that degrading act of reverence termed the kotow. I call it not a ceremony, because in China it is no ceremony, but a distinct acknowledgment of inferiority and subjection; and if it had been per- formed by the ambassador, I verily believe the China trade would not have been in existence at this day. I will next state the disadvantages that I conceive the existence of the East-India Com])any, under the present system, to be productive of; and really I think they are both few and unim- portant. It is in the power of the Company's servants to stop all British trade; and it is no doubt possible that such power may be exercised on mistaken SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 309 mistaken motives, and for speculative advantages. I was present during 11 March lb30. the two great stoppages in 1814- and 1821, and such interruptions of trade . have certainly been «« few and far between." I was a party wiio, f believe, ^f' ■ S. JJavuhm, as an individual, suffered as much on both occasions, either immediately or ' prospectively, as perhaps any one unconnected with the Company ; and I can conscientiously say, that I believe the stoppage of 1814, which was caused by the Company's sernants, to have been perfectly unavoidable. Security against its being done capriciously, or on slight grounds, can only be found in the character of the parties ; and the deep responsibility which they incur, not only to their own immediate employers, but to the country at large. I will explain what I mean by saying that 1 suffered deeply myself from these occurrences. In ISl'l', the conduct of my house was so much disapproved of by some of its constituents, for not protesting against the conduct of the East-India Company, that we lost a large portion of valuable business. The merchants of Bombay, upon that occasion, framed a memorial to the Board of Control, I setting forth the great advantages of their trade to the East-India Company, ' by reason of the duty paid on the cotton in the first instance ; also, by the territorial revenue of that part of the Company's own territory in the Guzerat, \ from which the cotton came ; and again, from the duties on the return-car- ■ goes from China ; and they contended, that the East-India Company had no right to stop their ships in China, which gave them just cause to seek remu- j neration by an action at law. That the case pressed upon them with peculiar ' hardship 1 always deeply regretted ; that the law was on the side of the Company I never doubted. I have by me the form of bond given by the owners of country ships to the Company's Bengal Government in India, before setting sail for China ; in which it clearly appears, that all British merchants trading by such sufferance as they did, were bound to conform to the orders of the Company's servants in China. I say nothing of the original Act of Charter, because that is within the reach of this Committee, and bears also strongly upon that question. In the stoppage of 1821, which was brought about by the Chinese and not the East-India Company, the supercargoes then prevented only the entrance of country ships, not their loading and departing from the port of Canton ; and it is a fact, that country ships did load and depart quietly, at a time when it seemed to be pretty universally considered that the Company's ships would have been forced to assume a hostile attitude, pending a reference to England. There is another commer- cial disadvantage, but it is, perhaps, hardly worthy of being mentioned ; such is the jealousy entertained by the East-India Company respecting woollens and worsted, that I upon one occasion, about the year 1815, was prevented from exporting from I3engal in a ship with myself (a country ship) a couple of carpets, for the use of my house at Canton during the winter season. 3042. Has the East-India Company's Factory, during your experience, given encouragement and protection to, or thrown impediments in the way of individual British merchants in China? — During my time I never knew the British Factory throw a wilful, or, as I conceive, an unnecessary impedi- ment 310 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 11 March 1830. ment in the way of British trade ; and so long as that Factory shall continue ~ to be constituted of the same materials as it was during my time, tliat is, of Esq' ^^"' well-educated, intelligent, patriotic, and honest men, so long will they, I conceive, give encouragement to that trade, and even hazard a departure from that narrow policy which has, on more than one occasion, emanated from the Leadenhall. I will relate the occasion to which I allude. A ship to my consignment lay at Whampoa with the most valuable cargo that in those days had ever been known to be in one small bottom ; the estimated value was 1,600,000 dollars and upwards. Great difficulties then obtained in the opium trade, and threats of search had been thrown out by the inferior ^Niandarins. I received an express from Whampoa from the captain of the ship stating suspicious appearances, and expressing the greatest alarm in consequence of both his officers having been taken violently ill imme- diately after their dinner, from which he inferred they had been poisoned. I immediately collected what strength I could from the country trade ; and, before embarking for the spot myself, I waited upon the then chief of the British Factory : he was my intimate friend, and the sincere friend of all British interests ; I said, " I know you can do nothing for me personally, who am known to you only as a foreigner : but there is £400,000 sterling of British property at Whampoa at this moment in the utmost jeopardy ; and I put it to you, whether with such a fleet as you have there, you will allow that property to be plundered, and particularly as many lives must be sacri- ficed in the attempt." The president of the committee saw clearly the difficulty he was placed in ; but being most anxious to render every assist- ance he most considerately devised a plan which perfectly satisfied me. He said, '* You know as well as I what my orders are respecting opium ; but where so much British property is in danger, I will go beyond my orders ; I will speak daggers to them, altiiough I dare not use them ; in short, I will make a demonstration which may be of great service." He merely con- certed with me a signal, which should be known between myself and one of the Company's ships at Wliampoa. 1 went down the river with the party I had collected, and when we arrived on board the vessel we found the chief officer had died ; the second remained ill : the men were all at arms; but no symptom having been manifested of an intention on the part of the Chi- nese to commit aggression, the only use I had occasion to make of the pre- sident's kindness, was to obtain surgeons from two of his ships to dissect the dead officer ; and having done to, we discovered that poison was not the cause of his death. We continued a strongly-armed watch however, and upon the alert for twenty-four hours. The Chinese either saw that we were prepared, or never intended the attack, and the alarm passed over. I have known the British Factory to throw impediments in the way of British sub- jects by sending them away from Canton at an inconvenient season for their business ; but that was merely the dry exercise of the law, and I never knew it wantonly resorted to. 3043. What, in your opinion, would be the result of the withdrawal of the East- SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 311 East-India Company from China, and of an open trade to that country? — 11 Maicli 1830 I conceive the result would, sooner or later, be a war between England and China, accompanied by wide-spread individual ruin; unless the Chinese '^- '^^- ^«'"''''^"' government be previously either coaxed by discreet, or coerced by energetic *^ negociation, into that amicable and reasonable intercourse with other nations, which every civilized state is bound by the dictates of nature to cultivate with its neighbours. 3014. Have you, or have you not, understood that the best teas brought to Canton were placed at the option of the Company? — In my time I really think there was an almost universal concession to that opinion. 3045. Do you, or do you not, consider that were individual purchasers of teas competing with each other to enter the China market instead of one great purchaser, the effect of it would be to raise the price of teas in China? — Certainly. This would happen in any market on so thorough a change of system : but that effect would gradually subside of course, because the higher the price was raised, the greater would be the manufacture, and the effect would then be a return to remunerative prices only, and thus matters would in the end, most probably, find their level. 3046. Do you consider that were the privileges of the Eastlndia Company done away with, the Hong merchants would have more control over the trade, or that the trade would be more extended? — It woidd be quite a natural consequence for the trade to become more extended ; but if the East-India monopoly is to be done away with, and the Hong monopoly to continue, it involves an absurdity too great to suppose this country could submit to, because I have already stated that the East-India Company is a counterpoise absolutely necessary to counteract in part, although it must be insufficient to balance the Hong monopoly ; still all these consequences must mainly depend upon the future acts of the Chinese government. 3047. Do you consider that the British Factory, by resisting attempted encroachments of the Chinese government, on existing privileges, has or has not contributed to the advantage of foreign trade generally? — Most certainly : and that is what I conceive to press so cruelly upon the interests of this country, because I feel that these advantages to foreign trade are obtained at the cost of Great Britain ; which trade, I grieve to say, I believe can never safely be opened to British industry and enterprize, but under the sanction of laws and regulations founded upon previous negotiation. 1 hold that we have hitherto possessed the trade with China on the frail tenure of a thread, and on a footing as degrading to the character as it is repugnant to the feelings of this nation. 1 hope to see the day when, as regards our inter- course with China, England shall follow the dictates of a wiser policy without losing sight of the maxims of justice; when the name of the East-India Company shall be known but in the past history of the country, and when that justly obnoxious term monopoly shall be expunged from the vocabulary of this great, enterprizing, industrious, and most commercial people. 3048. Do 312 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 1 1 March 1830. 3048. Do you mean by foreign trade, all that trade that is carried on by persons not British subjects ? — Clearly ; and that is the reason I have stated W. S. Davidson, that it is at the cost of England that those advantages have hitherto been ^'^- obtained. S049. Have you visited other parts of Asia besides that of Canton ? — I have visited all the four Presidencies of India, Malacca, Sincapore, Java, New South Wales, many of the Eastern Islands ; and I have sailed from India up the Red Sea, upon which occasion I landed at Cosseir, and the ship pro- ceeded to Suez, near the head of that sea. 3050. Have you any knowledge of the success, or otherwise, of the trade which has been carried on between China and the ports of continental Europe in American or other foreign vessels ? — My knowledge of it is not extensive ; but I have the results of some such adventures now by me, if the Committee wish to hear them. In the spring of 1819, a very fine ship under Dutch colours came to Canton ; she was owned by a very intelligent merchant in Holland, a particular friend of mine, but from motives of expediency was consigned to the Dutch Factory at Canton, and not to me. I was of some service to the concern, however, and in return the owner sent me a particular statement of the result. The ship was loaded with tea, and a small quantity of cassia lignea and sugar. Some of the sugar, by the bye, had been collected at Siam, where the ship had previously attempted to obtain a whole cargo, but failed. On the return of that ship to Holland there was short of £1,500 sterUng left for her freight, and the owner in transmitting to me the account wrote as follows : " I waited the result of our adventure, hoping to have found inducement to repeat it. You will be sorry to learn that in this we have been disappointed. This goes by a vessel from Middleburgh, which, by proceeding a second time, one would suppose had done well in the first adventure ; but tlie fact I have reason to know is the contrary : and it is easy to reconcile this, when I inform you that it is not like ours, a private concern, but divided into a great number of shares, and administered by a single house, calling themselves book-keepers, who have, no doubt, only a small share themselves, and are consequently more than compensated for any loss on that share, by a good commission on the whole transaction." The same correspondent, writing a few months afterwards, says " Our unfortu- nate Canton cargo, though sold by us nearly eight months ago, is yet nearly all ' in naturd,'' and would now certainly sink from 5,000 to G,000 pounds more than we lost by it." I can state another adventure about which I knew. A French house sent a large ship to China, and the cargo was fur- nished by bills being drawn through my house, and on Bengal. This occurred in 1819. In December 1820 I saw the owner of that ship in Paris (I had been acquainted with the gentleman at Canton when he conducted the operation), and he told me that it had brought ruin on all the parties concerned. 3051. Do you consider the mode adopted by the Company of contracting for SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 313 for teas with the Chinese merchants to have been advantageous or dis- ii Maicli 1S30. advantageous? — Highly advantageous for the Company. In proof of wiiich I will state, that I have by me accounts by which I perceive that teas, ^^- •*>• Davidson, which I purchased in the spring of one year at SI tales, I readily sold in the '*''■ shipping season at 38, besides interest of money at 12 per cent, per annum ; for teas I purchased at 36 tales I obtained 50, and for teas I purchased at 17 tales I got 30. This is but an instance of what I might probably have done on a certain scale almost every year I was in China. I will read an extract from a letter from my firm to a house in New South Wales, written at the time of the Topaze's stoppage in 1821 : "Within the last fourteen days your 3,000 chests of hyson skin have advanced three tales, and were it not for our engagement with the ship Almorah, we could at this moment readily resell and pass 6,250 dollars to your credit ; and what the event may be when another fortnight has passed by, we cannot tell ; but we venture to predict, that should the Company's trade be re-opened, the last of their twenty-one ships cannot be loaded with good tea ; and, on the other hand, should circumstances unhappily protract the settlement for months, it is notorious that the up-country dealers in that article will be ruined, and the regular supply in consequence deranged, whilst you will be safe from com- petition in the interim by the rigorous blockade already commenced by the Company's authority on country ships bound inwards." 3052. Do you consider that, in the event of an interruption of British intercourse with China, tea could be brought in Chinese vessels in any quantity, and of good quality, to the islands of the Eastern Archipelago? — ily experience can be of no use in answering that question. The thing is possible, but I should think the most improbable thing in the world that it could be done so as to answer the purpose of England. In the first place, the law of China is expressly against it ; in the second place, the vessels are of that precarious and insecure description, that certainly none but such a body as the East-India Company could think of trusting their property upon them. When 1 say the East-India Company, I mean that or any other such body on which the failure of an enterprize would not bring ruin, be- cause a company, of course, can venture to hazard what individuals cannot do ; but I am satisfied that no individual British merchant would ever have thought of resorting to such a desperate expedient in my time. 3053. Would you consider property of your own to be safe in Chinese junks, such as navigate the Chinese seas ? — Most certainly not. I think I am correct when I say that the calculation in my time ran thus : if seven junks sail from China to a distant port, one out of the seven was lost; but I should say that that calculation is wide of the truth. On recollecting my- self, 1 believe the proportion returning is too great ; and from what 1 know of their construction, outfit, and manning, (for the only thing good about them is their conduction, they have an European, generally a Portuguese captain,) I should say that the probable loss of one in five is a belter answer to the question. The confusion, from the want of discipline, that prevails 2 R on Esq. ,314 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 11 March 1830. on board those junks, prevents the European navigating captain from having "~ any authority in times of danger, and tlierefore all the assistance they derive Ew ' ^'^"' fi'om him is when they are in the open sea. 3054. Have you heard that the losses sustained by some individuals during the great fire at Canton were made good by the Chinese? — Yes ; I have heard so. I do not call to mind having heard from what source that was ; at the same time, I can have no doubt from whence the indemnifica- tion came. It was from the consoo fund, which fund is formed by a direct tax on the foreign trade ; it is a very secret fund ; but I have reason to think it is levied more often upon the imports than the exports, consequently the Americans, who brought a large portion of dollars in my time, did not pay their quota to it There is another peculiarity about the consoo fund, which is, that when once any article is made tributary to it, which will happen in the origin for a particular purpose, it does not follow that when that particular purpose shall be answered the tax on such article shall be re- leased, consequently it is the most anti-commercial, oppressive, and infamous tax imaginable. •*&* 3055. By whom is this tax imposed^ by the Hong merchants, or by the Viceroy at Canton ? — No doubt by the advice, and certainly with the conni- vance of the Hong merchants. I have often discussed it with them, when they perfectly acknowledged the justness of my animadversions upon it. It is the same description of abuse which would prevail in other countries if submitted to ; and I think there is a good deal of analogy between that and what is actually taking place at this moment in this country ; I allude to the fact of Mr. Pitt, and other ministers of the day, having formerly raised the salaries of all public functionaries on the plea of the great dearness of provi- sions and other necessaries of life ; and now we see how difficult it is to obtain a reduction, although it be quite notorious that £1,000 well hus- banded, will go almost as far as £1,500 did formerly in the maintenance of a large family. 305G. By whom is the consoo fund managed? — By the Hong merchants j at least, we know of no other party in the affair. 3057. Should you consider such remuneration of losses sustained by fire as any proof of an amicable disposition of the Chinese government? — Most certainly not. They had nothing to do with it, I believe ; but the Hong merchants must have found it convenient at the moment to pay off a few clamorous applicants, and they would immediately indemnify themselves out of the consoo fund. 3058. You mentioned the case of a Dutch ship having obtained a partial cargo at Siam, but was not able to obtain the whole : what prevented its obtaining the whole cargo : was it a political cause, or a commercial cause? — I understood at the time that the chief diffcultics had been thrown in the way of the enterprize b/ the public authorities j but the gentleman who conducted IV. S. Davidxon, SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 31.5 conducted the ship, one of the most intelligent men I ever knew, considered n March 1830. it would be a fruitless attempt to repeat. 3059. Was it on account of the place being unfit for commerce that no '*' '^•i,'"*' good adventure could be made there, or was it a fruitless attempt, in his '''' opinion, from the obstruction put by the government? — I should say pro- bably both, as well as my recollection guides me. I have no information respecting Siam but general information. 3060. You stated what that Dutch ship was freighted with from Canton homewards, what was the cargo outwards from Europe? — She brought dollars to Siam, which she calculated would have been sufficient to have invested the cargo in which she was in search of: but having failed there, and coming to Canton, the cargo she took home was more valuable, and the consignees were obliged to supply that deficiency by bills on Europe. 3061. You stated that there was a loss by the homeward voyage ; was there a loss upon the whole adventure, or merely upon the return voyage ? — I think, from the tenour of my friend's letter I have read, there is no doubt it was a losing adventure upon the whole. But I stated in my former answer, not that there was a loss, but that only about £1,500 was left as freight to the ship. 3062. Is that the only adventure which, during your time in China, you knew of to Siam? — It was the only adventure I ever knew much of; and not having originated in China (for the ship came to Canton after making the fruitless attempt), I did not collect so much information about it as I should otherwise have done ; that is to say, my curiosity was not so much excited. 3063. Do you know of any other foreigner who attempted voyages to Siam ? — I do not. 3064.. Or to any other part of Cochin China ? — ^None whatever, but whai I read of in the popular history of that country. 3065. You have stated, as the result of your experience in the trade of China, that you hoped to see the time when the trade of that country should be put upon a footing which you would consider more consonant to the in- terests and dignity of this country, by which all monopoly would be done away ; have the goodness to state to the Committee what your idea is of this perfect state of the trade with China which you should wish to see esta- blished ? — In doing so, I feel that I must consider China as a civilized nation ; and I therefore can entertain no doubt that vigorous negociaiion would obtain Great Britain all the privileges she can seek to enjoy in such a distant and peculiar country. The only basis on which, I think, the trade with that country could be carried on with safety to this country, and with comfort to the individuals who embark, is that of a treaty of commerce, wherein the duties of the foreigners who visit China shall be clearly and distinctly defined, wherein their rights, in return, shall be acknowledged, and the whole con- nexion proceed upon the sanction of such laws and regulations as I cannot 2 R 2 doubt 316 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: II March 1830. doubt (it being always assumed that China is civiUzed) this country is in a ^j ^ ,j ,. . state to exact. At the present moment the government of China admit us Esq. ' ^^ ^^o\d intercourse with them. We take to them those articles which they require, and we receive in return the surplus of their productions ; a state of things which I hold to be the most wholesome and consonant possible with the interests of both countries ; and I read in an author of celebrity, under the head of " Right of all nations against one that openly despises justice," that " if by her constant maxims, and by the whole tenour of her conduct, she evidently proves herself to be actuated by that mischievous disposition, if she regards no right as sacred, the safety of the human race requires she should be repressed ; and again, " to despise justice in general is doing an injury to all nations." Vattel is my authority. 3066. And you are of opinion that this better state of things in China might be brought about by a more vigorous exercise of authority on the part of this country ? — I do not entertain a doubt of it. 3067. Do you think it might be brought about by a mere withholding of trade, or that it would require any more vigorous measure to produce it ? — I consider that a vigorous negociation, accompanied by a threat that the King of England would no longer consent to hold intercourse with China on the degrading footing on which it has hitherto been carried on, would altogether alter the tone of the government of Pekin. 3068. Are you of opinion that the Company have generally assumed too tame a tone in their communications with the Chinese authorities ? — By no means. I am quite of a different opinion j and I think it would have been much better had the East-India Company instructed their servants in China what they were to do, and what they were not to do, and not left them such a dangerous discretion as has hitherto been vested in them. I take for granted in this answer, that the East-India Company in London would have done so in concert with His Majesty's Government, and I think it would have been wise for all parties to consider long ago what was best to be de- termined upon, instead of leaving individual traders at the daily risk of the loss of all their property. 3069. But you are of opinion that, either by the Crown or by the Com- pany, some attempt should be made to put the trade with the Chinese upon a different footing from that on which it now stands ? — Certainly, by the Crown. 3070. And you think that would be practicable? — I have no doubt of it. SO7I. And being effected, you are of opinion that it would be for the interest of this country tiiat the monopoly of the China trade should be done away ? — Certainly. 3072. And that the trade, under such circumstances, could be conducted with more advantage to the country ? — Certainly, it being taken for granted, however, SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 317 however, that when the English monopoly is done away, which should be 11 March 1830. subsequent to the negociation, the Chinese Hong monopoly in its present ■ mischievous operation sliould be stipulated to cease. IV. S. DatUhm, 3073. How long is it since you left China?— I left China in the month of ^''"^' February 1822. 5074. You have spoken of the number of Chinese junks that were lost ; by whom are the junks freighted ? — By Chinese usually. 5075. What do those cargoes generally consist of? — Such articles as find a sale in Java and the neighbouring islands, principally, I believe, for the use of the Chinese settlers in those parts, who are very numerous ; teas, silks, nankeens, sugar-candy, and so forth. 3076. What are the principal ports to which they resort.? — Batavia is the very principal one ; at Malacca, and Sincapore, and Manilla, they are con- stantly seen ; at Banca, at various ports in Borneo, and even, I believe, as distant as the Archipelago of Celebes and the Gulph of Carpentaria, on the north coast of New Holland. 3077. Can you form any estimate of the amount of trade carried on be- tween Canton and the Eastern Isles ? — No, I cannot form any exact, or even approximate estimate of it. 3078. If it should be found impracticable to coerce the Chinese government in the manner you have stated, do you think the mode in which the trade is carried on now is the most beneficial and secure ? — Unquestionably, if I con- nect the beneficial with the secure consideration. 3079. It is presumed that the vigorous negociation you recommend must, of course, be accompanied with a commensurate naval force to carry it into effect with success ? — I should think there is ample time to try a much milder mode of negociation, before the period will arrive when it is abso- lutely necessary to adopt the last measure. 3080. Supposing that, by negociation of any description, success could not be obtained in that object, do you think that what is called the Company's monopoly is necessary to counterbalance the Hong monopoly? — I have already, in my answer to one of the questions, stated that such is my decided and unequivocal opinion. 3081. What is your opinion of the profit and loss that has taken place in the country trade between China and India since 1813 ? — I should suppose it has been much less profitable than formerly. 3082. Has it been upon the whole a profitable trade ? — What it has been since 1822 I cannot speak at all ; but during the last three or four years of my residence in China I fear that it was, upon the whole, the contrary. 3083. Were not the embassies carried on by Lord Macartney and Lord Amherst with a view of establishing commercial relations between China and England ? — I always understood so. 3084. Can 318 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS; 11 Marcli 1830. 3084. Can you state to the Committee any reason why those embassies did not succeed in their object ? — Because they never professed to be but If. S. Davidson, complimentary embassies, and therefore were not calculated to succeed with "'''' the Chinese government. 3085. Had they stated their distinct object to be that of commerce, is it your opinion, from the knowledge you have of the character of the Chinese government, that they would have been received at all ? — They certainly would not have been more likely to be received into the imperial presence had they stated such, than in the manner in which they went, which was of all things the most complimentary to the government of China. 3086. When you stated that you expected successful results from a more vigorous negociation, did you contemplate coercion by war? — I stated, I think, in a former answer, that what I meant by coercion in the first instance, was a threat that the King of England could no longer tolerate the de- graded state of vassalage in which his subjects were held in China, without privileges, without protection, without safety, either to persons or property. 3087. Do you think that such threat, unaccompanied with force, would produce the effect which you expect upon the government of China r — I confess I must entertain doubts whether it would. 3088. Then your ultimate view would be, that, supposing such an attempt were to be made by the King of England, that that attempt in its ultimate result must contemplate the sending such a force, and in fact, going to war? — That is just the point to which I come, provided I be justified in stating, what I believe I have already done in a previous answer, that the common riglit of all civilized states to insist on holding reasonable intercourse with each other, is acknowledged by the best writers on the law of nations. 3089. Putting the right out of the question, what rational expectation would be formed of any warfare carried on against a nation of a population so immense ? — During many years' residence in China, the subject was con. stantly discussed. We had the information derived from the first embassy as well as from the last, and I never heard any man who had given his mind to the subject, but came to this conclusion, that although the population of China may be 250,000,000, 20,000 British troops might march from Canton to Pekin at any moment without hindrance or molestation. 3090. Are you of opinion that it would beconsistent with justice that the English nation should march an army of 20,000 men from Canton to Pekin, merely because the government of China do not confer upon British subjects those commercial advantages to which you think they are justly entitled ? — It is not commercial advantages that I have ever said I would make war to contend for ; but if the Emperor of China permits, as he has done, Englishmen to reside within his dominions for the purposes of trade, I think it is his duty to protect them, to foster that trade, and to see that his officers do justice to those who are enterprizing enough to undertake it, and to rely upon his imperial protection and hospitality. 3091. If SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 3VJ 3091. If foreigners settle in any country for the purpose of commerce, 11 March 1830. or for any other purpose, is not one of the conditions on which they reside in such country an obedience to the laws, and a conformity with the customs '' '^" ^^"■'«^*'''"*' of that country? — Certainly. ''"^' 3092. Are there any roads from Canton to Pekin for troops to march on ? — I really do not know, but there is on modern maps a distinct tract of Lord Amherst's route from Pekin to Canton. I have such a map in an atlas in my own possession. 3093. Have you ever seen any Chinese maps of the road ? — I think not. 3094'. Do you conceive that a commercial treaty with China would be best negociated by the East-India Company, or by an ambassador, or any other party directly accredited by the Crown ? — By an ambassador direct from the Crown. Mr. ABRAHAM DIXON again called in, and examined. 3095. The witness requests he may be allowed to answer the following jv/^., ^_ Dixon. question, which was put to him on his former examination, on Tuesday the 9th of March instant : — What was the number of cloths exported by the free-traders in the year ending the 5th of January 1828? — Of British woollens, 30,289 pieces, and of Foreign 552 ; together, 30,841 pieces. In the 30,555 pieces, which T before stated to have been shipped in the following year, is included 1,414 pieces of foreign woollen cloth. This quantity of 30,555 pieces, exported by the free-traders to India alone, to the four ports only to which they have access, exceeds that of the East-India Company to both India and China, during the period, by fifty per cent. ; their export, according to the papers laid before the House of Commons, having only been 20,370 pieces, in which, I believe, is included the cloth for the use of the army. S096. You have stated that you had been engaged as a Blackwell-hall factor till the year 1822 in London, and that you are now engaged in the woollen trade as a manufacturer at Leeds ? — I stated that I am now a foreign commission agent, and have been so for several years past at Leeds and in Huddersfield. 3097. What was the name of your house in London ? — Abraham Dixon and Company, and previous to that, John Thomas and Company. 3098. What is the firm of the house with which you are connected in Yorkshire ? — I have no partner j I have been alone for some years. 3099. Have you been in the habit of supplying the Company with broad- cloths ? — During the time that I resided in London frequently. 3100. What is the process by which the Company buy those goods? — By public tender and contract. 3101. Did you find any difficulty in the dealings you had with the Com- pany ? — No. 3102. Are 320 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 1 1 Marcli 1830. 3102. Are you aware that the Company buy their goods under a bye-law ? ■ ". — I am not aware of that. 3103. Did you find that the Company fulfilled their engagements faith- fully and honourably with you ? — Perfectly so. 3104. You stated that there were certain fees forming a part of the con- tract, were they fixed fees or arbitrary fees ? — They were always stated in the notice of the tender for the contract as fixed fees. 3105. Were there not fines imposed upon parties who failed to deliver a proper article ? — There were. 3106. Have you ever been subject to those fines? — During my trans- actions with the Company I do not recollect that I ever had to pay one fine j but if I had, it was of a very trifling amount. 3107. Have you had any facilities given you by the Company, such as receiving money on discount before it was due ? — Not during the time that I resided in London, but perhaps my partners might ; but I am not aware of the fact. 3108. Are you aware that the Company are often in the habit of giving those facilities to persons with whom they trade? — I believe they do so when applied to for that purpose. 3109. Do you consider that an advantage? — Certainly it is an advantage. 3110. Do you apprehend that this mode of contract is disadvantageous to the Company ? — I think so. Sill. In what respect? — In consequence of the fines and of the rejections, many houses are deterred from entering into the contracts : indeed many houses, to my knowledge, would not enter into the business at all, in con- sequence of the danger of rejections and being subject to fines. 3112. Did you refuse to supply the Company when you were engaged in that trade whenever an opportunity offered? — If those fines had not been imposed, we should have gone to a greater extent in our tenders for cloth to the East-India Company. 3113. But, to a certain extent, you were always willing to engage with the Company ? — When we had not other employment for our manufactories in Yorkshire. 3114. Have you any means of knowing whether the Company have always thrice the quantity of goods offered to them for which they have occasion ? — I believe that is frequently the case. 3115. Do you think that is any proof of the disadvantage that the manu- facturers labour under in dealing with the Company ? — There are always people that are desirous of doing business. They would tender at a high price, that would cover the risk of fines and rejections, 3116. Are SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 321 3116. Are you aware that the Company take tiie lowest tender? — I believe H March 1830. they do. ^ TT /• 1 ^ , , Mr. A. Jhxmi. 3117. Have manufacturers access to the Company s samples, and are you furnished with portions when you desire to see them ? — Yes. 3118. You stated that the overlookers are very strict in their examination, and there is no appeal from them ? — So it is slated in the contracts. 31 19. Are you aware that the Company occasionally take goods at a small reduction of price, which are not equal to the standard, in order to favour the manufacturers ? — They do, 1 believe, sometimes. 31^0. Were you engaged formerly with Hamburgh and Amsterdam, and other places in Europe ? — Yes. 3121. And you had also an establishment in the United States of America? —I had. 3122. Have you withdrawn from those establishments ? — Yes. 3123. For what reason ? — In the year 1826, the firm in London to which I belonged was unfortunate in business. 3124". To what causes do you attribute your losses in trade? — It arose from bad debts, made chiefly in this country, arising principally from our banking or agency business in London, in consequence of the great depre- ciation in the value of every description of property in 1825 and 1826. 3125. Was your trade to America profitable ? — Yes. 3126. Were the dealings you had with the Company profitable, or other- wise ? — To the best of my knowledge they were profitable. 3127. Are you at present interested in the house of Joshua Taylor & Co? — No, not for many years past ; not since 1822. 3128. Do you happen to know whether they have many dealings with the Company ? — I believe they have. 3129. Are you aware of what became of the cloths that the Company re- jected when you supplied them with a quantity, and when some were re- jected ? — About the year 1812 or 1815, or rather previous to the year 1815, they were generally sold to the Mogadore merchants ; since that they have been chiefly sold to the private traders for India and China. 3130. At any reduction in price? — Sometimes they have been sold at a reduction of price, and sometimes at an advance of price. Indeed some of the cloths have been sent to America, and sold there to American China merchants. 3131. Were they sold at a reduction of price? — I believe generally those which were sent to America were sold at a profit. 3132. Are the Committee to understand that those that were sold and went to America realized to the manufacturer a larger price than the Com- pany would have given for them? — I am now only speaking of those we 2 S manufactured 322 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 11 March 1830. manufactured ourselves: they brought a larger price in America, but in jj. T'TT- . London they were generally sold at a loss. For many years, the rule in disposing of articles of that description was to deduct from the cost of the day the cost charged by the Company for dyeing ; that is, the cloth was sold dyed at the same price as if the cloth had been white, and then there was a considerable loss. 3133. As you reside at Leeds, does it happen to fall within your know- ledge, that when an application was made to the Company to relieve the distresses in the neighbourhood of Leeds, circulars were sent round, and offers were made to the Company to supply cloths to an extent much beyond their demand ? — I am not aware of that. 3134. Are you aware what is the comparative cost price of woollen cloth in Leeds and in the West of England? — There has not been much difference j but I believe the Leeds cloths are a little cheaper. 3135. Then you are not aware that, in this particular instance, the Glou- cestershire or West of England clothiers have undersold the Leeds manufac- turers ? — I am not. 3136. Are you not aware of the fact of the Company having always offers for twice or thrice the quantity of goods that they have occasion for ? — Not that that is always the case ; that it is so sometimes, I have understood. 3137. Are the Committee to infer, that the Company's mode of business is encouraging to the manufacturer, by the quantity of goods that they offer ? — It would appear so from that. 3138. Should you not conceive that a demand, equal in amount to the Company's demand for cloth, by the private trade, would be equally bene- ficial to this country as the Company's demand ? — Certainly. 3139. Can you inform the Committee why the cost of the dyeing of the different colours in Yorkshire and in London differs so much, the material of dyeing being the same ? — I believe the cause of the difference is chiefly this ; the comparative small expense of coals in Yorkshire, and of rents and wages to servants ; and also, for a number of years, the London dyers have been in the habit of charging much larger profits than the Yorkshire dyers are willing to do their business at. 3140. Are there many private manufacturers who dye in London ? — I am not aware of any manufacturers living in London who dye in London, except the East-India Company ; but there are a number of woollen ware- housemen in London who occasionally have cloths dyed with the London dyers. 314-1. Is there any other large company in London that export any thing like the quantity which the East-India Company do, and if so, do they dye in London ? — The only public body that I am aware of is the Hudson's Com- pany, who buy 400 or 500, perhaps GOO or 7OO pieces of cloth every year, and Mr. A. Dixon. SELECT. COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 3'iS and I believe they have them dyed in London, at least they had some years n March 1830. ago ; whether they continue it or not I do not know. 3142. Is that a company having also exclusive privileges? — Yes. 3143. Are the private individuals that have their cloths dyed in London, generally speaking, connected with the North or with the West of England ? — With both ; but they will never have them dyed in London if time will allow of their having them dyed in the country. 3144. Do you know what proportion the cloths bought by the East-India Company in Yorkshire bear to the cloths bought by them elsewhere ? — I do not. 3145. You were understood to state, that the risk of fines charged by the East-India Company, necessarily increases the price at which manufacturers can afford to sell to them as compared with private merchants ? — Yes. 3146. Then the higher price which the East-India Company are stated to give, does not act as an encouragement to the manufacturer, but only covers the increased risk ? — Exactly so. 3147. Did you mention all the fines charged upon the rejected goods ? — I omitted mentioning that which is levied upon the manufacturer in case the cloth should be rejected or delayed in the delivery, that is from 10*. to 20*. each cloth. 3148. Are not those conditions in the Company's contracts intended to secure a perfect investment? — I believe that is the object. 3149. Do you think they have that tendency ? — I have no doubt but they have. 3150. But at a higher price ? — At a higher price. 3151. You stated, that when those rejected cloths were sold to individuals, the practice was to sell a dyed article at the same price as a white article ; will you state what proportion the cost of dyeing is to the prime cost ? — Some years ago the cost of dyeing was not so much in proportion to the price of cloth as it is at present, and I can only state the present relative values. There are a variety of colours and they vary ; the white cloth would cost £6. 65., and the cost of dyeing it blue would be £2. lis. iJd. I should state in explanation, that the West country manufacturers gave their factor, or at least gave me when I was a factor, the liberty of disposing of the rejections at the rate of which I am now speaking, but to do better if I could. 3152. Then the practice was to abate from the cloth the price of dyeing, which, under the circumstances stated by you, is about 33 per cent. ? — Yes ; I ought perhaps to state, in addition to what I have stated, that formerly, cloth which now costs six guineas cost about £20. I have not been in the trade lately ; there may be an alteration ; the manufacturers may not at this time be willing to make such a sacrifice ; indeed, so great a sacrifice as that would not be necessary now. 2 8 2 S153. When 824 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 11 March 1830. 3153. When the cloth cost that price, was the dyeing proportionably 3154-. Do not the Company's tenders vary very much from each other from time to time ? — In the different descriptions of cloth they do, but not for the same description of cloth ; they have been very much the same for each description of cloth for many years ; I believe since 1813 or 1814. 3155. What is burling, for which a charge appears to be made on the part of the Company ? — Burling is the operation of picking out any foreign sub- stance which may adhere to the cloth. 3156. What is the charge made by the cloth drapers of the Company for burling on super cloths ? — Us. per piece. 3157. What is the amount of the fee upon that species of cloth ? — 6^/. per cloth. 3158. Have you a copy of one of the Company's contracts for cloths? — There are three different descriptions of contracts for the different descrip- tions of articles. I have one here which is dated on the 15th of April 1829, which is the notice of a tender or contract for 2,000 whole pieces of white list cloths, that is, cloth used for the army in India. 3159. Will you deliver in that contract? — [The witness delivered in the same, "which is asjbllows .-] "Gentlemen: East-India House, loth April, 1829. " I have the orders of the Committee of Buying- and Warehouses of the East- India Company to acquaint you, that the Committee are ready to consider tenders for supplying- white list cloths A, to be delivered on or at any time before the 31st of July 1829. The quantity wanted is about two thousand whole cloths. " 2. The quality of the cloth must be equal to the Company's standard sample A. Each cloth must be of the length of forty-eight yards, and be six quarters wide within the list ; must weigh 66 lbs., and have no dyed head. Intending con- tractors will take especial notice, that these conditions will be strictly required to be fulfilled. Positive orders are given to the Company's overlookers not to pass any cloths of inferior wool, or worse weaving than the standard sample. The cloths must not be pressed. " 3. Each cloth must be made with a dyed middle mark, which middle mark must be placed exactly in the centre of the cloth ; and dyed with indigo, and not logwood. All cloths of which the two halves shall have been separated will be re- jected ; as will all cloths of which the list may be unduly heavy or wide. " 4. Every piece must be fit to be dyed Aurora ; and the attention of the manu- facturer is in an especial maimer called to this circumstance. " 5. In case any of the cloths shall not be delivered within the time specified in the first clause, or, having been delivered and rejected, sliall not be replaced with approved cloths within the period stated in the same clause, the contractor .'^hall pay to the Company^ as and by way of liq\iidated damages, the sum of ten BhiUiiigs for each cloth which shall so not be delivered or replaced. The con- tractor must be careful to make early deliveries, in order that ho may replace any rejections within the time limited ; or he may send in a surplus to meet the contingency SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 3^5 fonting-ency of rejections; but this must be done on or before the day appointed for the 11 Alaicli 1830. completion of the contract. " 6. The goods will be subject, as usual, to the inspection of the Company's over- "'''■ ■^- ^'-^o^'- lookers, whose decision shall be final. " 7. PajTnent will be made upon Thursday the 24th of September 1829, deducting the liquidated damages, if incurred, and the usual office-fee of sixpence per whole cloth. Contractors are also requested to take notice, that the sum which has been paid to the cloth-drawers for burling, viz. one shilling, is not to be paid directly, as heretofore, to those persons; but the same sum will be received by the Company for and on account of the cloth-drawers, and will be deducted from the manufacturer's bill of parcels. " 8. Cloths which may be found by the dyer, at the time of washing, or in prepara- tion, to be defective, shall be immediately replaced by the maker with good cloths, and the maker shall pay the amount of all charges incurred ; but the Committee dis- tinctly give notice, that if it shall be discovered that any person has disguised oak- stained cloths with fullers-earth, whitening, or other substances, so as to deceive the Company's overlookers, the Company will not enter into any future engagements with such person, although he may offer goods at a low price. And as it often happens that cloths prove unfit for consignment to India upon their final inspection in the Com- pany's warehouse, after being dyed, owing to some original defect in the cloths not before discoverable, it is hereby made a condition, that the maker shall repay to the Company the cost of such cloths, with all charges ; such defective cloths being, after payment, returned to the maker. " 9. Complaints ha\ingbeen made by the overlookers of the foul and hurley state in which cloths are often found after dyeing, owing to neglect in manufacturing ; such cloths will be returned upon the manufacturer, who will be required to repay to the Company the value thereof, with all charges incurred thereon. " 10. Very material inconvenience having been experienced from the imperfect manner in which the cloths are marked and numbered, it is the particular desire of the Conmiittee that each maker cause his name and the number to be worked into the cloth in a very distinct manner, w ith linen or cotton thread, and the Christian name must be put at full length. The Committee will return to the manufacturer any cloths which may be found defective in these points. "11. No charge is to be made for carriage to London, nor for cartage to the Company's warehouse ; the cloths will not be taken into the warehouse in whole bales, but be unpacked in the warehouse yard, and counted singly into the warehouse. The wrappers nmst be taken back immediately, as the Company will not be answer- able for them. " 12. Each maker must name an agent in London, to deliver the cloths, to take back the rejected goods, to make out bills of parcels, and to do all other needful business. " 13. If the maker shall not find it convenient to receive the payments himself, he must give a regular power of attorney to some agent to receive the proceeds. " 14. Should it suit you to make an offer, you will please to attend to these con- ditions, which will be strictly observed on the part of the Committee ; and you will please to adopt the annexed form of a letter, without any variation. " 15. If your answer shall not be received at the office of the Committee of Buying and Warehouses in the East-India House before 1 1 o'clock of Wednesday the 29th April l829, you will be considered to have declined to manufacture for the Company at the present time. Many persons not having been careful to send in 826 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 11 March 1830. in their offers at or before the time appointed, it is positively ordered that no tender be received after the above-mentioned hour ; and it is desirable that manufacturers, Mr. A. Dixon. having delivered a tender previous to the time limited, should abide thereby, and not cancel or alter the same by any new letter, such practice being higiily objectionable. " 16. All goods which may be delivered in consequence of the present circular, will lie at the Company's risk in case of tlie calamity of fire. " 17. The Committee reserve to themselves the right to reject any proposals which they may deem to be \mreasonable, although such proposals may appear to be the lowest and most advantageous which may be offered. " 18. All persons making tenders are required to seal up their tender, addressed to the Committee of Buying and Warehouses, and to write upon the outside, ' Tender for white list cloths.' " I am. Gentlemen, your humble servant, " Wm. Simons." 3160. Will you state what conditions in that paper you consider objection- able, and which tend to increase the price of the article ? — The sixth, eighth, twelfth, and thirteenth clauses. 3161. The sixth is, that " the goods will be subject as usual to the inspec- tion of the Company's overlookers, whose decision shall be final ;" what objection have you to that ? — There is no appeal from it. 3162. What is your objection to the eighth ? — The eighth clause is, that " cloths which may be found by the dyer at the time of washing, or in pre- paration, to be defective, shall be immediately replaced by the maker with good cloths, and the maker shall pay the amount of all charges incurred." 3163. Do you consider that unreasonable ? — No, I should not consider it unreasonable in itself; but circumstances have taken place, arising out of this, which have been very objectionable. I have known cloths sent back by the dyer, and the faults which were pointed out as being in them, I am very certain took place in the dye-house, and were not in the cloths when they went to be dyed ; but it would be a most difficult matter to prove it. 3161-. Are the cloths inspected after dyeing? — They are inspected pre- vious to dyeing ; but it was so difficult a matter to bring it home to the dyer, that the manufacturer was obliged to take the cloth and submit to the loss. 3165. Then you object to the double inspection ? — Yes. 3166. What is the next objectionable clause? — The eighth clause goes on to say, " But the Committee distinctly give notice, that if it shall be dis- covered that any person has disguised oak-stained cloths with fuller's earth, whitening, or any other substances, so as to deceive the Company's over- looker, the Company will not enter into any future engagements with such person, although he may offer goods at a low price. And as it often happens that cloths prove unfit for consignment to India upon their final inspection in the Company's warehouse after being dyed, owing to some original SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 327 original defect in the cloths not before discoverable, it is hereby made 11 Maicli 1830. a condition that the maker shall repay to the Company the cost of such cloths, with all charges, such defective cloths being after payment returned ^^^' ^' ^^^"^^ to the maker." Now, I have known instances where cloths have been suffered by the dyer to remain in his possession before they were sent to be tendered, and during that period they have shrunk up so much that it was impossible to get them out to their original width, and in consequence of that cloths were returned to the manufacturers, whereas if the dyer had sent them to the setter to be tendered immediately, that would have been avoided. SI67. Did yoii find these grievances the last time you dealt with the Company ? — I found them occasionally. .3168. But you continued to supply the Company notwithstanding you felt those grievances ? — Certainly. SI69. Will you state your objection to the twelfth clause? — The twelfth is, " Each maker must name an agent in London to deliver the cloths, to take back the rejected goods, to make out bills of parcels, and to do all other needful business." There is nothing objectionable in that on the part of the manufacturer, so long as the Company are willing to pay the addi- tional price for the goods. 3170. Your objection is, that he is obliged to add to the value of the cloths that which he pays for agency under that commission ? — Yes. The thirteenth is, " If the maker shall not find it convenient to receive the payments himself, he must give a regular power of attorney to some agent to receive the proceeds ;" that power of attorney is also attended with expense, which the private traders are not subject to. SI7I. Do not the Company permit any person who is named by the manufacturer as agent to deliver a charge of his goods, to receive payment for you if you wish r — Not without a power of attorney. 3172. What is the expense of a power of attorney ? — I think it is about 305. 3173. On those occasions on which you contracted with the Company, could you have supplied another party besides the Company with cloths of the same quality at three per cent, less than you did the Company ? — Yes. 3174. You would have done it ? — My house in Yorkshire would have done it, because they would not have been subject to the charge made in London. SI75. Do you mean to say that you would have sold the cloths in York- shire at three per cent, less, or that you would have delivered them in London at three per cent.? — Either, it makes no difference. 3176. Would you have delivered them in London to another party at three per cent, less ? — Yes. SI77. Then 328 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS; 11 March 1830. 3177' Then the risk of receiving a bad article would be transferred from , , T~T!. you to the purchaser of the sjoods ? — Yes. Mr. A. Dixon. ■' t • «. • 3178. Is It sufficient to give one general power to your attorney in London to receive money for you, or must there be a special power for each contract? — Not for each contract. 3179. So that one general power enables your agent in London to act for you for ever? — For ever, so long as he continues your agent. 3180. Do not you conceive that one of the great hardships in the inspection of the Company's overlookers is this, that in dealing with private individuals both parties concur in forming a judgment upon any dispute as to quality, whereas in the case of the Company they are obliged to abide by their decision without any referee of their own ? — Yes. 3181. Are you not aware that those overlookers are persons trained up from boyhood to manhood in the business, and that their character is established by long practice ? — Yes. 3182. Do you know any instances in which they have been complained of) or considered as dealing unfairly with the manufacturers? — During the time I had transactions with the Company, I never had occasion to complain in any one instance. 3183. And you thought the inspectors dealt fairly between the manu- facturers and the Company ? — Yes. 3184. Were you obliged to give any fees to them for inspection ? — No. 3185. Do you consider that the character of the trade requires so strict a scrutiny into the quality of the goods as the East-India Company make? — I should think not. 3186. Is it not the case, that cloths furnished for army purposes, and delivered to the storekeeper, pass through the same ordeal, and there is no appeal from that expert as it is called ? — No, the ordeal is not the same ; they do not impose any fines upon rejections. 3187. On what term of credit do you sell to individuals? — That depends upon the agreement made with the party at the time; sometimes for cash, sometimes they buy at two, or four, or even six months, or even longer than that. 3188. When you sell at a credit of three months, what would you charge upon the del credere account to indemnify you for the risk? — A manufac- turer selling goods does not consider that he is running a risk adequate to paying any del credere commission for it, in selecting parties whom he thinks are perfectly safe. 3189. Do you mean to say, that if you sell merchandize to parties at three months' credit, you should consider the value of the risk as nothing of their stopping payment ? — No ; I sliould not say so. 3190. What do you consider the value is ? — The valuemight be oneper cent. 3191. Should Mr. A. Dixmi. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 329 3191. Should you consider that you were incurring a risk of one per cent. 1 1 ALncli 1830 if you sold your merchandize to the Company? — No, I should not. 3192. Then it may be assumed, that it is one per cent, more to your ad- vantage to sell to the Company so far as that goes ? — Yes. 3193. Supposing you were to sell goods upon the average of customers at six months' credit, would not you consider the guarantee of bad debts to be worth three per cent. ? — Two and a half or three per cent., selling them at six month's credit. 3194'. Supposing you were in regular dealings with a house of great re- spectability and credit, should you think it necessary to charge a per-centage upon the cloth delivered because there was not immediate payment ? — Not beyond the interest. 3195. When you stated that there would be a difference of three per cent, charged to the Company upon the cloth delivered to them above that supply to private merchants, did you then contemplate cloths in a white state, or in a dyed state ? — In both ; but I think I stated three or four per cent. 31 90. If you made your sale to a house of substance and character in London, or if you had a credit assigned to you on any banker in London, should you think in that case, that the risk of debt would be equal to two or three per cent. ? — Certainly not. 3197- When you speak of the del credere with respect to the manufacturing trade, are you not rather speaking of the risk attending the selling to an ordinary retailer of manufactured goods ? — I considered the question to apply to the general risk of business. Lunce, 15" die Martii, 1830. Mr. ABRAHAM DIXON, being in attendance, was again called in, when j^ March 1830. he requested permission to give in the following explanation to his former evidence. Mr.A.Di.xon. The statement which I gave in my evidence to this Committee on Tuesday last, the 9th day of March instant, in regard to the falling-off in the East-India Company's exports of woollens to China, though correct, is not sufficiently explicit ; for I find, on closer examination, that it would have given a better idea of their real situation to have made other divisions of time in taking the annual averages, which would have shown, as the truth is, that since 1819-20 the consumption of British woollens in China has increased. I now beg to deliver in a Statement, showing this to be the case. [The witness delivered in the same, which was read as follows .-J 2 T " From 15 March 1830. Mr. A. Dixon. 330 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : " From the years 1809-10 to 1813-14, both inclusive, the average number of pieces of woollens imported into Canton by the East-India Company was Pieces 248,616 "From 1814-15 to 1819-20, the average for these five years was only 168,095 " Showing a decrease of pieces, or about 33 per cent 80,521 " In the eight years which have elapsed since the Americans came into competition with the East-India Company, or from 1820-21, the first year in which the Cliinese market was opened in competition with the East-India Conipany, till the year 1827-8, the average number of pieces of woollens yearly imported into China by the East-India Company amounted to , 179,274 " Or, had increased in quantity beyond the five years previous to Ame- rican competition nearly seven per cent., or 11,179 " Total Imports of Woollens into Canton. By the East India Company, By the Americans. TOTAL. 1825-6 Pieces. 212,346 231,529 123,317 Pieces. 23,159 26,977 27,176 3) Pieces. 235,505 1826-7 258,538 1827-8 1.50,493 644,504 " Or average yearly importation 214,834 " This shows that the import into Canton in these three years, compared with the five years preceding, viz. 1820-21 and 1824-5 inclusive, had increased nearly 25 per cent. Pieces. "Export:— 1820-1 157,401 1821-2 172,320 5) 867,004 1822-3 136,768 1823-4 221.814 1 73,400 - annual average. 1824-5 178,701 " And when compared with thesix previous years, vis. 1814- 1815 and 1819-20 inclusive, the increase of the throe years, 1825-6 to 1827-8, was upwards of 30 per cent. "Export:— 1814-15 224,632 181.5-16 161,.568 . mQ ri^ 1816-17 175,801 ^; JJU,/^c> 1818-19 '."*.'.'.'.'.!'.!!'.'.".'.'.*.*.*.*. 1447^7 ^^^' *'- ' ^"""^^ ^^^'■*?^- 1819-20 .'.".*.*.'.*.'.'.'.'.'.*.".'.*.'.'!.'." 150,254 " The SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 331 •' The decrease of the Company's exports of woollens from this country to China 15 March 1830. commenced much earlier than the interference of the Americans; for on rcferrinj^ to __ the papers laid before Parhament, I find that from 1803 to 1808 inclusive, the exports j]/,_ j Dixmi of the East-India Company to China was never short of £1,000,000 sterlinjr, and averaged for these six years £1,128,557, but began to fall oiF materially in 1809. " From 1809 to 1813-14 inclusive, the value of all other articles, exclusive of wool- lens, exported to China, averaged under £150,000 annually. " The total exports since that period have never equalled the amounts now quoted, with the exception of 1828, and for the last nine years have been as follows.- 1820 1821 1822 1823 1824 1825 1826 1827 1828 Woollens. Other Manufactures. £ £ 713,683 33,353 722,461 141,699 623,259 46,230 674,585 33,462 532,221 79,918 652,047 92,811 756,968 95,062 413,422 80,393 618,412 245,082 TOTAI.. £ 747,036 864,160 669,489 708,047 612,139 744,858 852,030 493,815 863,494 " From 1809 to 1811 inclusive, which were years of war, the exports were as fol- lows : 1809 £971,360-) 3) 2,692,596 1810 82.5,097 > 1811 896,139 j 897,532 - annual average. " Or, upon an average, of the yearly value of £897,532, being a falling off, on the average of the six preceding years, of upwards of 20 per cent., the exports of these years having been — 1803 £1,1.39,184-, 1804 1,202,607 Lx g 771 937 1805 1,050,424 p" '^•''^^-°' 1806 1,155,103/ 1807 1,142,120 1808 1,081,8491 1,128,557 - annual average. " From the years 1812 to 1819, the Company's exports of woollens to Canton were as follows : 1819 r^ h^^s i^'^'- heen able ,n,o< to procure the amounts \ior these two years. 1814 £ 829,070-) 1815 705,032 n. . o^ss 319 1816 858.164 r) 4,258,319 1818 '.*.".*.'.;".!!!!'.!!!!!!!".'.'. 673>297 j ''^^-^^^ ' ^"""^' ^'■^'^^^• 1819 *.'„"!!""."!!!!!".!'.!!!! 568!628j 2 T 2 " The 332 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 15 Marcli 1830. " The average yearly value is £709,719, being more than 20 per cent, less than the average exports from 1809 to 1811 inclusive, and more than 37 per cent, less than the Mr. A. Diocon. average exports from 1803 to 1808 inclusive." JOSHUA BATES, Esq. called in, and examined. Joshua Bates,Esq. 3198. You are an American? — I am. 3199. How long have you been in this country ? — I have been fixed here about ten years. 3200. Have you been for some years an agent for the trade of some Ame- rican houses in this country, and are you at present a partner in the house of Baring, Brothers, and Company ? — I am. I was agent first for an Ame- rican house connected with the East- India trade ; afterwards as partner of the firm of J. Bates and John Baring, who had the management of the busi- ness of an American house, more particularly connected with the China trade ; and lastly, as partner in the house of Baring, Brothers, and Co. in the same trade. 3201. Have you been acquainted with the general trade of America with India and with China? — For the last twenty years I have been constantly in situations that placed me immediately in connection with that trade, both in America and this country. 3202. Has the China trade been carried on by the Americans generally by different houses, or has it not within these few years got into the hands of a very few houses? — Several years ago (say twenty years ago) it was in the hands of a very few : the number increased ; and three or four years ago there was a great number trading to Canton, of which many have failed ; and now I should say that the number is small again. 3203. Have not your friends carried on a large portion of the New England part of that trade ? — I should think they have the largest portion by far. 3204. Should you say more than one-half of the whole?— I think at times one-half of the whole. 3205. Has not that trade consisted in shipments from America to China by themselves, in shipments from Europe to China under your direction, and then in returns from China to America and to Europe ? — That has been the course of the trade. 3206. By whom is the business conducted in China? — For twenty years it was conducted by Mr. Cashing, who was a partner in the American house; for the last two years it has been conducted by a ]\Ir. Forbes, who, I am sorry to observe by the last accounts, was drowned at Macao. 3207. Were those persons partners in the American house, or were they there acting on commission? — They were partners. 3208. So SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 333 3208. So that it is an American house, with an establishment of partners 1.3 March 1H30. in China, who carry on the trade there ? — Yes ; it is an American liouse, witii partners in China and America, and agents in Europe. Jo!ihualiat.e.i,Ls>r/. or 300,000 or 350,000, as the season may be, and the Americans 120,000 or 125,000. 3238. Should you say, upon the average, that the American export of tea is about one-third that of the Company ? — I should think it was more than onerthird. The consumption in the United States is about 7»000,000 of pounds, that is, about one-fourth of the Company's exports : that does not include the shipments by American vessels from Canton to Europe. 3239. Have you any means of stating a proportion of the whole trade of tea in China as between the Americans and the Company ? — The 14,000 chests mentioned as shipped from Canton to Europe in 1828-9 were a'', shipped by Perkins and Company : but they did not all come in American ships ; there was one Dutch ship and one French ship. 3240. Adding that to the other amount you stated, what is the whole amount of tea shipped by Americans from China ? — That would make 94,000 chests. 3241. What proportion does that bear to the Company's exports? — The consumption in England appears to be about from 25,000,000 to 28,000,000 of pounds. I have that information here for several years, but I cannot now recollect where I procured it, therefore cannot rely on it. 1 have the prime cost of the Company's teas at Canton from 1809 to 1829. In the 1818-19 season, there appears to have been brought 21,000,000 of pounds of teas ; and in 1819-20 there appears to have been sold in London, 29,000,000. 3242. Of the whole of the American trade, what proportion is conducted by your correspondents ? — That varies from year to year ; but I should think last year one-half nearly. 3243. One-half of the American consumption, and one-half of European, or one-half of the whole trade ? — One-half of the whole American trade, and all the European trade in the supply of teas, except what the Dutch Company have. 3244. Have Messrs. Perkins a large establishment at Canton for the tranr- action of this great business?— I believe they have only Mr. Forbes, and a lad of fifteen or sixteen years of age : they have, of course, servants besides. 3245. Do they derive their compensation from a share in the profits, and not from any charge they make for agency ? — That is the way in which it is arranged, I believe. 3246. Have you at present any homeward-bound ships under your management, either expected or arrived ? — No ship has arrived from Canton this season, and we cannot know whether we have any ships coming. 3247. Had you any last season ? — Last season we had a great number of ships to Europe. 3248. Did Josh un Bates, Esq. 336 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: J", March 1830. 3248. Did they come direct from China to Europe? — They came from China to Cowes, and a market. 3249. By coming to Cowes and a market, you mean that it is the practice of the American trade to stop in any port in the Channel for orders from their correspondents in London, who direct them to the best market, accord- ing to their estimate of the European markets ? — That is the object of coming to Cowes. 3250. Those ships having so come to Cowes and a market, where were they sent by you ? — They were sent, one to Rotterdam, one to Amster- dam, and two to Hamburgh. There were two other ships, a Dutch and a French ship, which went direct, it being necessary, in order to secure the lower duties, which are payable on direct importations in ships of the country. 3251. Have the adventures of which you speak been profitable ?— I should say that the returns of teas generally are not profitable. 3252. Do you mean not profitable, taking their invoice cost in China? — It has always been very difficult to make a par remittance in teas. 3253. Have the teas of the last year not been profitable ? — Last year I should say they have paid very well ; I cannot speak from very precise knowledge of it ; the year before they were losing. 3254. But, generally speaking, have not the house in China considered that the outward shipments have been the shipments which have given the profit, and they have looked to the teas rather as means of remittance home? — I cannot say what may have been their views with regard to it, but I should judge that it was so considered. 3255. Has not that, upon the average of years, been the general result of the trade? I cannot speak as to the result, not having the winding up of the business ; but I judge, by its continuing, that it has been satisfactory as to the result. 3256. If the general result has been satisfactory, and the remittance of teas home has been rather losing, must not the outward adventure, of ne- cessity, have been profitable ? — I should draw that conclusion from it, cer- tainly. 3257. Are you acquainted, by communication with your correspondents, with the manner in which they transact their business in China? — I have had a good deal to do with people connected with the China trade for a long time, and have had several friends established there, and from them I have learnt something of the way in which they do their business there. 3258. Do you know whether they trade with the Hong, or with the outside merchants? — I believe they trade with one or the other, as it may be most for their interest. 3259. Do SELECT COx\IMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. S37 5200. Do you know practically whether it has been found most for their 15 March 1830. interest to trade with one or with the other ? — I believe, for large ope- rations, they have found it most advantageous to deal with the Hong mer- Joshua Ba(es,E!iq. chants. 32C0. Do you suppose that a greater portion of tlie American trade goes through outside merchants than of the English trade that goes to China ? — 1 should think it did. 32G1. Do you know whether those outsiile merchants with whom they trade are merchants of substance? — Some of them, I have understood, are. 32&2. But that they trade generally as they find they can do so to the best advantage ? — Yes. 32(^3. Did you ever hear that they found any difficulty in securing their ships ? — I never heard of any. I always understood it was a place where it was the most easy to transact business of any place in the world. '32.Qi!. Did you ever hear of any difficulty in procuring tea? — No. 3265. Is not tea considered an article of which almost any quantity can be procured tliere ? — I cannot speak, except from conversation with others. I have always understood that every body in China drinks tea, and therefore, of course, the quantity which is exported must be very small in comparison with the whole. 32C6. Is there not always a great abundance of tea in the market ? — There are generally 50,000 or 60,000 chests remain over. 3267. Is not it very frequently a condition made by the Chinese in taking goods outwards, that the person dealing with them shall take tea ? — I should think that a person who managed his business well would not make any arrangement of that kind. 3268. Is not tea an article which generally is superabundant in the market r — I believe the Chinese understand pretty well the wants of foreign countries ; they endeavour to bring forward the quantity that is wanted, and very little more. 3269. Do you understand that Messrs. Perkins make their purchases from the Chinese on as good terms as the Company ? — I have no doubt they do for their contract teas, whenever they make contracts ; but I should sup- pose that they make their purchases to better advantage by taking any and every opportunity, according to the fluctuation of the market. 3270. Do you consider therefore, that not confining themselves always to contract, but by purchasing sometimes by contract, and sometimes in the open market, they buy upon the whole, on better terms than if tliey did the whole of their business by contract? — Undoubtedly. The contract price of tea has not varied but very little for a great number of years, not more than Id. or 2d., but they frequently fluctuate 40 or 50 per cent. ; they fall that much. 2U 3271. Do 338 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 15 March 1830. 3271. Do you mean that they fluctuate between the contract-piice and the market-price, when the contract is over ? — The prices fall from Novem- Joshtia Bates, Esq. bgj- jq lebruary. Frequently the teas which are thus sold are not the same sort of teas; but teas that are sold at certain prices in November would sometimes be bought at 20, 30, or even 50 per cent, lower in February. 3272. What do you mean by the teas not being of the same sort? — There may be some among them of the same quality as the contract teas which the Company take, but the greater portion of them are inferior teas. 3273. Are they the rejected teas of the Company ? — Probably the Com- pany never saw them ; they are not of a quality that they would look at. But sometimes, I believe, the Company make purchases of those teas, pick- ing out the best of them. 3274. Is there not a considerable quantity of tea always in the market that has never been offered to the Company at all ? — I should think there was a great quantity. 3275. Do you consider the quality of the Company's tea better than the quahtyofthe tea exported by Perkins and Company? — Better, generally speaking. The qualities which are bought for this market will not answer for other markets ; other countries will not pay a price to compensate for the finer qualities, particularly of black tea. 3276. Is the quahty suited for the American market superior or inferior to the quality suited for the English market? — I should say that the black teas were inferior, but the green teas are of equal quality, and being used fresh there, they appear to be better than in England j they have rather more flavour, perhaps. 3277. How is the quality of the tea exported by the Americans for the continent of Europe ; is it better or worse than the Company's teas ? — Sometimes they have taken the same quality as the Company, but it will not answer ; they will not pay a sufficient price for it on the Continent. 3278. Generally speaking, what is the quality suited for the Dutch market ? — It is of a middling quality, not so good as the Company's, and not very bad. 3279. So that if you saw the price of any denomination of tea, taking Congo or souchong for instance, in London and Amsterdam, you would not consider a mere comparison of the prices for a given denomination of tea as any proof of the relative dearnessor cheapness in the two countries ? — None whatever. 3280. How are the qualities that suit the German market as compared with England ? — Qualities similar to those used in Holland, 3281. And the French market ? — The French market requires better tea than the German : they are willing to pay for good tea. 3282. Is SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 339 3282. Is it equal to the English ? — Equal. Teas will find buyers there 15 March 1830. at prices in proportion to their quality. 3283. The average quality, therefore, of the black teas shipped by the ' American house at Canton is upon the whole inferior to that of the India Company? — I should say decidedly so. 3284. Can you state the per-centage of inferiority between the teas suited for the Dutch market and the Englisli market ? — I have before me an in- voice of contract teas, the same as the Company ship, in wliich 1 see souchong is put down at 35, 37, and 39 tales, and there are other souchongs that cost 23. 3285. Should you say that the souchong bought at 35 was of the Com- pany's quality, and the other at 23 was of the inferior quality, which you have described as suited to the Dutch market ? — The Chinese always fix prices for three different (lualities — the first, second, and third ; and this being the cost of contract souchong, that would be about the price at which the Company would have contracted at that particular time : the other I can only suppose to be inferior tea from its price. 32SG. Has the house in China any difficulty in getting whatever quality they please in the market ? — I am not aware that they have any. 3287. If therefore, they take a cheaper sort of tea for any particular market, does it not arise from a choice of theirs, and a desire to accommo- date themselves to the peculiarities of different markets, not from any difla- culty of obtaining finer teas if they paid the price ? — They experience no difficulty in procuring the finer teas. They frequently do ship them ; and the shipping of a middle quality is as a matter of interest entirely, because they can gain more by that quality than by the other. 3288. It is presumed that one of the calculations of a merchant is to assort the qualities of his article according to the demands of the particular markets ? — That is the practice of all merchants, I believe. 3289. Do you know whether among the Company's teas the same deno- minations have the same prices, or are there not variations of price for teas of the same denomination ? — -I should think there must be variations for different chops. 3290. Then all their souchong, for instance, is not of one given price ? — Certainly not; it must vary according to the quality. 3291. So that the Company here give us some superior and some inferior teas of the same denomination ? — Of some particular kinds there certainly is inferior tea ; but I should think that it would be hardly right to say that they give you inferior and superior : they give you superior and middling tea. 3292. If there were a free trade of tea to this country, do you think that the consequence would be that we should get more of the inferior and less of the superior than we now get? — I think the high duties in this country serve to prevent any inferior article from coming here for consumption. 2 U 2 3293. If JosknaBafes, Esq. 340 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 15 March 1830. 3-293. If the duties are ad valorem, does not that do away with that ob- jection? — Still it would have the same effect. SSQl*. Did you ever see what is sold for tea in any of the towns or villages of this country ? — I have certainly tasted inferior tea. 3295. Did you ever see in America any thing so bad as that which is sometimes sold in this country? — I do not think I have seen any so bad. But 1 do not think it is tea: I think it is an adulteration with goose- berry leaves, or something of that kind. 3296. Would not there be less of that adulteration if there were brought to this country some of the lower qualities of teas.' — It would depend upon how brougiit. If the price was brought down so that the object would be trifling, there would be no adulteration, I should think. 3297- You think there would be less inducement to adulterate the low- priced teas than the higher ? — Certainly there would be. 3298. Do not the Americans usually carry on their trade in their own ships? — They do. 3299. The business of merchant and ship-owner are not separated, as they are in this country ? — No, they are combined. 3300. Does not that make it rather difficult to ascertain the precise value of freight in America ? — No ; there are many ships that go on freight of course ; it is a thing established as much as here. 3301. Can you state to the Committee what would be the amount of freight from America to China and back, or from America to China and back to Europe ? — They go generally in ballast. A ship-owner, within two years, offered to furnish, first-class ships at 30 dollars per ton, that is about £6. 105., to go from America, to load teas at Canton, and return to Europe or America ; they would take out any cargo that the freighter might wish to send. 3302. You mean that the party engaging the ship would have a right to fill her to any extent he might wish, out and home ? — Yes. 3303. But the habit of the trade is such that there is very little freightage out ? — Yes. 3304. Upon the average what time does that voyage take ?— Upon the average about eleven months. Many go in ten months, but it is fair to cal- culate a year. 3305. Are you speaking of ships of the first class ? — Of the first class. 3306. Are they ships in which you would trust valuable commodities, requiring to be kept dry, as soon as you would in any of the ships of the East India Company ? — Certainly j ships cannot be built stronger or better. 3307. Would you say that they were perfectly suited to the safe con- veyance of a delicate article? — Certainly. 3308. Should SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 341 3308. Should yoii think them as little liable to sea average as any other 15 Maidi 18:30. ships ? — I should think they were less liable to it, perhaps, tlian any other. 3300. What size are the American ships generally ? — Four hundred tons Joshua Bfi/fsJ^Mf. is about the size. 3310. Are those considered better for the trade than larger or smaller? — I think they have heen found in most trades to be the most economical size ; that is to curry the largest cargo at the smallest expense. 3311. Do you know how many men an American ship of 400 tons going to China is manned with ? — I do not remember whether it is eighteen, or nineteen, or twenty, but the entire number of persons on board is between those. 331*2. What is the ordinary rate of premium on insurance ? — The premium has been two and a lialf per cent, at Lloyd's for a voyage out from London to Canton in an American ship ; I think it woidd be two per cent, if the insurance were now to be done liere. 3313. Is that on goods or on specie ? — On goods ; on specie less. 3314. Do you find any difference in the insurance upon an American ship that goes out from here and a Company's ship ? — There is a difference in the rate of insurance, but I think it ought not to be. I observe that on the Company's ships they pay three per cent, for tlie voyage out, and on the Ame- rican ships I think it could be done at two. There is not much insurance done on Americans here ; but it should be considered that the Company's ships stop at various places to land stores, perhaps go by way of Madras or Calcutta, and therefore, although I think three per cent, is too much for them, it is not, on the whole, so far out of the way. 331.5. Can you state the comparison between the American ships and the Company's ships that go direct from London to China without stopping r — I believe they charge that sum when they go direct. There is something about it which I think I do not understand ; there must be some clauses in the policy, otherwise I am sure three per cent, never would be paid. There cannot be better ships, and commanded unquestionably by men of first-rate abilities, antl it is very rarely any accident hap[)ens to them. Tiie rate of pre- n^ium appears to me unaccountable. 331G. Do you say confidently that that rate of premium does exist? — I am sure it exists, and it has surprised me frequently. 3317. Do not you think it may be ascribed to the fact, that with respect to large ships, however well constructed, their going out and coming into harbour is always a more difficult operation than with ships of a more mode- rate size? — Unquestionably it is ; but in those long voyages there are only two ports, one to leave and one to make, and those are such as are easily made. I do not think that hazard is material. 3318. You have stated the premium at Lloyd's ; what would be the same premium 342 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 15 March 1830 premium done in America ? — I think they have even gone so low as one and a half per cent, from the United States to Canton direct. rhxhun Bates, Esq. 3319. What is the premium out and home from tlie United States ? — Per- haps three to three and a half. 3320. Would it be the same from America to Canton, and back to Cowes and a market? — It would depend on the season, in some degree; if the voyage was to end late in the season it would be rather more. 3321. Supposing the ship to come into the Channel at a favourable season of the year? — 1 should think they would probably require a little more, per- haps a half per cent. 3322. That ship would have not only to come to Cowes, but would have again to go to a market on the Continent ? — She would. 3323. Are the premiums generally higher or lower in America than at Lloyd's ?— They are generally lower ; but the average clauses are not the same, which sometimes makes the higher premiums at Lloyd's more advan- tageous than the lower premiums in the United States. 3324. Do you think you could now, at the present time, procure good ships to go to China and bring back teas at £7. IO5. ? — I have not a doubt that I could get any quantity. 3325. Do you mean American ships? — American ships. 3326. To go either from America or from Europe? — From either. 3327. Could American ships be hired in the river Thames to any amount ? — Not to any extent ; you will generally find four or five small ships there. 332S. When you talk of £7. \Qs. per ton, what ton do you speak of? — That is the ton of fifty cubic feet. 3329. Is that the same measurement by which the Company's contracts for freight are made ? — It is the same measurement by which the Company's contracts are made ; they take fifty cubic feet, I believe. The price was thirty dollars for forty cubic feet, which being brought into tlie Company's measurement makes £7. IO5. for fifty cubic feet, which is the Company's measured tonnage. 3330. From your experience of the shipping of this countr}', do you sup- pose that British shipping could be got at prices equally advantageous ? — I am afraid not, they cost so much more. I should think the ship-owners here could not afford, with the high prices of provisions and the cost of their ships, to navigate so cheap. 3331. Can you state what you think the difference would be at which the English ship-owner could afford to do the same trade ? — It requires a long calculation to determine that. 1 see the cost of a first-class ship in the United States would be £15 per ton complete for sea, while here the price, I believe, would be £25. 3332. Are you speaking of a river-built ship ? — A river-built ship would cost 3 SELECT COMMITTEE oi- the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 343 cost £25, a northern built ship would cost £20. It depends altogether upon 15 Marcli 1830. what class of ship one would charter; but with this increase in tlie value of the ship and the high price of provisions, and the sailors, I believe, are rather «^<'*''"^ Batef,l.>.<{. dearer here than in the United States, there would be a difference perhaps of one-fourth in the freight. 35S3. Are you speaking now of the freight at which the English ship- owner could do the same voyage ? — 1 should think he would require a fourth more. 3334. Is not a British ship more durable than an United State's ship ? — There is no doubt she is more durable; but that part of the ship which decays more in the American than in the English is very easily replaced in the United States. Timber is very cheap ; therefore in a copper-fastened ship the wood part of it is a very small part of the expense. 3335. Are you of opinion that the American could afford his freight at one-quarter less than the British ship-owner > — I should think he could ; but I may not be correct in that ; it requires some figures to come to it. 3336. Is that entirely owing to the difference of construction, or to what extent, cheapness of navigation? — I should think one-half is the cheapness of navigating. 3337. You think the difference is about equally divided between the ex- pense of building and the expense of navigating? — That, I should say, is about the division. 3338. \\'ould it put the British ships more upon an equality, if those ships for long voyages might be victualled at the price of provisions on the Con- tinent of Europe ? — It would make a very great difference. 3339. If, for instance, they could be supplied with bread and other provision-stores at the price of the bonded warehouse of corn, would that make a considerable difference : — It would make a very great difference. It was the case that they could be so supplied some time ago ; but I im- ported some beef from America to supply that demand, and they altered the law here to prevent it; that was about the year 1826. 3340. Your object being to victual your ship with foreign provisions? — That was the object of bringing the beef liere. 3341. Have there not been instances of ships clearing out from ports of Europe in preference to using ports in England, for the express purpose of cheaper victualling ? — I should doubt whether that was the case. They can always in coming from a foreign port bring their bread ; and there is no place on the Continent where beef is packed so well as in tliis country. 3342. Do the American ships that go out from here sometimes bring their bread with them for the purpose? — They generally bring their stores with them; they endeavour not to want much here. AVhen they come from Cantonj of course, their stores are exhausted. 3343. With 344, EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 1j Maith 1830. 934,3. With reference to the difference between the amount of premiums , , ~~ ^ on American ships and on the Company's ships, are you aware that risks on Joshua Bate$,Esq. ^, --, . i- 1 i- /^ ^1 1 *• .• ^ ,1 i- 1 • * the Company s ships are always subject to the destniation or the ship being altered, or the ship being taken up as a transport, whilst an insurance on an American ship is not liable to any risk but from port to port ? — I should think that might account for part of the difference. I was not aware that those clauses existed in the charter-party. I should think there is something more than that which causes the premium to be so high. SSi'l. Have you heard of any cases of the Americans suffering from any conflict with the Chinese authorities at Canton ? — I only remember one ; that was the case where an Italian sailor, wlio had committed murder, was given up to be strangled according to their laws. It was done very quickly, I believe. 3345. Do the Americans use much of the authority of their consul there ? — I should think very little. 334G. Is there any difficulty of trading there, which makes them desirous of a more powerful representative of the country in the port of Canton ? — I am not aware that there is any such desire ; the trade has always gone on very well, and without any difficulty. 3317. Is their trade sometimes directed to other ports than that of Canton in China ? — I do not remember to have heard of any case of their going to any other ports ; it is possible that it might have taken place. 3348. Do not they send goods to Manilla sometimes ? — To Manilla, and all the islands and ports in the Archipelago, 3349. Do they take out goods suited to those different markets? — They take all goods suited to those markets ; imitations of Indian manufactures, and the like. 3350. Do you know of any voyages that have been undertaken to Cochin China or Siam by any of your countrymen ? — There was a voyage under- taken by Captain White, who published a journal of it, to Cochin China ; and Captain Coffin, who is here with the Siamese youths, made a voyage to Siam. His vessel was fitted here, or rather the cargo was sent to him at Hamburgh from hence. 33.51. Did he accomplish his voyage ? — He went there and traded, and has repeated his voyage since. 3352. Was that the simple effect of a single trader, or was any consul, or was any official person put forward to mediate with the government r — None other than Captain Coffin ; he managed liis own affairs. 3353. And he did trade at Siam and came away ? — He did. 3354. Do you know whether he made a good adventure of it ? — I believe very fair. 3355. Do the Americans trade to Sincapore ? — They, I believe, ai-e not allowed SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 345 allowed to trade direct to the little spot called Sincapore. They call there 15 March 1830. and make their bargains, and they are obliged to lay off, or to go to some little distance to accomplish the business ; it is not legal for them to load Joshua Ba/fi EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 15 March 1830. only would bring back such, but perhaps increase them by the very act of carrying manufactures, as many of the inhabitants of those countries, who Josfiiia Bates, Esq. |iave hitherto not laboured at all, seeing sucli beautiful things brought out from this country, would be desirous of possessing them, and proceed to labour to get something to buy them with ; and tliis course of trade would bring, perhaps, more tea here than is wanted ; and the price being reduced, it would either be bought for smuggUng into the Continent, or fur exporting to those places to which it could go legally. 3450. Do you consider the trade in China susceptible of any great in creased stimulus? — I see nothing to prevent it increasing very mucli. 34-51. Are you aware that the Company has already made efforts for that end ? — That is very possible; but I think the Company is viewed with some degree of jealousy. Their ships have a sort of warlike character that sub- jects them to some degree of jealousy. I tiiiiik individuals would be more likely to discover a mode of extending the trade. 3452. What are the reasons upon wiiich you form that opinion ? — It is formed from the experience of the course of trade in other places. I re- member that in 1818 and 1819 the first shipments of Britisli mnnufacture took place to Java and Manilla to any extent, and now those places have become very extensive markets. 3453. The question alluded to the circumstance of the armed ships of the / Company being viewed with some degree of jealousy ? — I have always un- derstood that the Chinese are a timid people ; and in the case of Siam, I believe the Company sent an armed embassy there, and it failed, while Captain Coffin succeeded in trading very well. 3454. Do the American ships carry any guns? — They carry a few small guns. 3455. What do they carry them for ? — To beat off pirates in case they should meet them. 3456. When was the embassy from the Company to Cochin China, was it before Captain Coffin went there or after? — It was after he had made one voyage there. 3457. Do you suppose it failed because it was accompanied with an armed force? — No doubt of it. 3458. Do you think any such jealousy exists at Canton with respect to the Compan}'s ships coming armed ? — I should think they always felt some degree of fear, being defenceless there. 3459. Do you think there would be less difficulty in individuals going with ships not armed than takes place now? — I should think there would; J think they would prefer to deal with private trailers. 3460. Have you known any difficulty that the Company have been under in carrying on their trade in consequence of having armed ships ? — I do not know SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 355 know that they have been under any absolute difficulty; but there is a 15 March 1830. feeling of fear and jealousy I have always heard expressed. I remember the trade being stopped at one time by the inability of the Chinese to distinguish Joshua Bates, Esq. the Company's ships from frigates. The frigate Dollis, I think, during the late war, was chasing an American ship oifthe mouth of the river ; the American escaped and she pursued her, by her boats, and captured her in the river. There was a stoppage then, I believe, of the trade, owing to the Chinese not being able to distinguisli between a King's ship and a Company's ship. 34()1. Have you ever heard from any of your correspondents what was likely to be the result in case of the trade being opened at Sincapore, whether it was likely to become an emporium for the sale of tea. ^ — I have never heard any thing from my correspondents about it. 34-62. Have you not hciird that the Americans were likely to carry on a trade there, supposing they had not been prohibited by the Company? — I do not think the Americans would, because they have free access to Canton. 3463. Do you see any advantage that would be likely to arise upon the trade to Sincapore, which does not exist at Canton, with respect to any differ- ence in the duties uj)on the export of teas by Chinese ships as compared witii foreign ships ? — It is probable there may be some little difference, although I cannot state what it is ; but I should tiiink that a trade in that way, which would be carried on in Chinese junks, would be very irregular, and not to be depended on much. 3464. Can you state the amount of the trade carried on between the north-west of America and Canton ? — I should suppose it might be to the extent of half a million of dollars ; it is falling off, I believe, now. 3465. Can you furnish the Committee with a statement of the prices paid by the Americans for tea at Canton - — I can state the prices paid at any given time ; here are the prices-current with the last season. 3466. Will you have the goodness to state them? — The current prices were as follows : bohea, IQ to 12 tales per pecul ; congou, 14 to 20 tales per pecul ; canipoy, 14 to 20 tales per pecul ; souchong, 14 to 25 tales per pecul; pecco, none; hyson skin, 9 to 18 tales per pecul; tonkay and single, 15 to 20 tales per pecul; young hyson, 20 to 35 tales per pecul; hyson, 30 to 45 tales per pecul ; imperial, 40 to 50 tales per pecul ; gun- powder, 40 to 52 tales per pecul. 3467. In estimating the profits of the Company, beyond the profit which a private merchant would require, to amount to a million and a half, have you referred to the tables laid before parliament, stating the prime cost at Canton and the amount of the sale prices ? — I have referred to those. 3468. Have you seen any advices with respect to the sales of bills at Canton, which would lead you to imagine that the American commercial transactions have remained undisturbed, after the movements which are 2 Y 2 supposed 356 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 15 March 1830. supposed to have lately taken place at that port ? — I have no doubt that the ~ American trade goes on, from extracts from the China papers, which men- " ^*' *^' tion transactions in different kinds of goods, which could not take place if the trade were not going on. 3469. Do you think that the free traders in Canton do not derive pro- tection and benefit from the existence of the Company's Factory keeping the Chinese authorities in awe ? — The trade may be more steady in con- sequence of the regularity with which the Company move, but I should not think it gave them any additional security in their operations. Mr. John Deans. Martis, 16" die Martii, 1830. Mr. JOHN DEANS called in and examined. 16 March 1830. 3470. In what part of the East-Indies have you resided? — In the Eastern Archipelago. 3471- For how many years have you resided there? — I resided there con- stantly for upwards of twenty years. 3472. Where was your residence during that period? — I resided for three years in Prince of Wales' Island, and the rest in Java : for two years I was travelling about the Archipelago — the first two years of my being in the East. 3473. Will you be so good as to state the period at which you went to the East, and at which you left it? — I arrived in the East in I8O6 ; I left Java in the beginning of 1828 : during that time I was a little more than two years in Europe. 3474. In what capacity were you residing in the East? — Generally as a merchant ; for the greater part of that time as a merchant and agent. 347.5. Had you any opportunities, during your residence in the East, to acquire any knowledge of the Chinese population, and did you come in con- tact with that population ? — My principal intercourse was with Chinese settlers in the Archipelago ; I carried on extensive commercial transactions with them. 347C. Did those commercial transactions give you any opportunities of knowing and studying their character ? — I had considerable opportunities. 3477. Are the Chinese settlers numerous in the Indian Archipelago? — They are computed at about 20,000 in Batavia and its environs, and perhaps twice the number throughout Java and tinoughout tlie Archipelago : they are very numerous, but I have not the means of stating tiieir exact number. 3478. What SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 357 3478. What are their chief pursuits at Batavia? — They are traders, they 16 Marcli 1830 are meciianics, and they are sometimes cultivators ; that is to say, in Java, superintending cultivators ; they are farmers of land, and owners of it in ^^- '^'''*" ^'^'^""*- some parts. 3479. What is their character as traders, speaking generally ? — They are keen, enterprizing traders, extremely expert in their dealings, and understand the nature of the trade of those countries in which they are settled perhaps better than any other people. 3480. Have they information that enables them to carry on their com- mercial transactions with advantage? — They seem to have very accurate in- formation, and receive it very quickly too. 3481. Can you state any instance of their mode of acquiring information, and the quickness with which they receive it ? — It is a well-known fact in Java, that they receive commercial information throughout the distant parts of Java much earlier than European merchants do who communicate through the I'egular government post. 3482. Are there amongst them persons of wealth acquired in commerce? — There are, of considerable wealth. 3483. What is their character as merchants, with reference to the punctu- ality of their dealings and the mode of transacting business ? — Those who have obtained a high reputation are extremely tenacious of it, and they are very punctual in all their dealings. 3484. Uo they appear to possess more or less of the characteristics which are requisite for the business of a merchant than the natives of other orien- tal countries ? — I do not think they are exceeded by the natives of any country as a commercial people. 3485. Do you include European countries ? — I do. 3486. Is it difficult to transact business with them ? — Not the least ; I have never had any difficulty with the Chinese. 3487. Have you, in point of fact, transacted much business with them? — I have, very extensive business. 3488. Will you state what that business was ? — I imported largely British manufactures to Java, and the medium of communication with the natives was generally through the Chinese, who purchased from me in whole cases or bales, and retailed to natives, giving me their simple notes of hand for payment, and being always punctual in meeting those demands. 3489. You have stated that there are about 'iO,000 Chinese residing in Batavia ; are they dispersed among the other inhabitants, or do they form a class residing separately ? — In Batavia, as in all other large towns throughout the Archipelago, they reside in what is called the China Camp, which is a part of the town appropriated to themselves, and there they retain their own usages and customs ; even the architecture of the town is the same as in China, and the very mode of arranging the household is the same. 3490. Is 358 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 16 March 1830. 3490. Is any proportion of the population of a permanent chai'acter, or is it altogether a migratory one ? — They are generally of a permanent charac- Mr. John Deans, ter, but there are some that return to China occasionally. 3491. Are those the most wealthy that return, or do the more wealthy fix there? — They are generally wealthy people that return. 349^2, Is there shown amongst them, with respect to their own con- sumption, any indisposition to articles of European produce? — Not the least indisposition to articles of European produce, but rather a growing taste for them of late. 3493- Are you aware of the existence of any customs or prejudices which indispose them to the use or consumption of articles of European produce or manufacture ? — I am not aware of anv. 3494. What articles of European produce seem to be matters of desire to the Chinese inhabitants of Batavia? — As household furniture, they are very partial to our glass-ware of all descriptions, to our minors, and other articles of ornament, and the consumption of them has greatly increased since the traders have conformed to their partialities as to shapes and patterns. 31-95. With respect to dress what is their practice? — The form of a Chinaman's dress is always the same wherever he is; but the articles of which it is now composed throughout Java generally consist of European manufactures. There are some few suited to the climate, and which have not been intimated by us, still Chinese. 3496. What articles of European manufacture are used in the dress of the Chinese inhabitants in Java? — Woollens and cotton cloths; the latter very extensively. 3497- Have you any reason to form an opinion whether the taste for European manufactures which exists amongst the Chinese inhabitants of Java is peculiar to them, or whether it extends also to the inhabitants of the empire itself? — I cannot exactly state this. The settlers are Chinese ; their habits and manners are the same in the Archipelago as in their native country, I believe, and they readily adopt our manufactures in preference to their own, when those are cheaper and better. When I first went to Java, in 1811, they were almost exclusively clothed in Chinese manufactures, and I witnessed a revolution there which almost clothed them in European manu- factures, during the time I was there. 3498. In what interval of time was that change effected ? — 1 commenced as a merchant and agent in 1813 : at that time 1 do not think the consum- tion of British manufactures exceeded 300 cases throughout the whole of Java; in 1826, the last year of which I have any precise account, the impor- tation of cottons exceeded (3,000 cases in Java. 3199. Can you state what the value of those (i.OOO cases might be in the market of Batavia ? — I think they may be taken upon an average at about £50 a case. 3500. Did SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 359 3500. Did the consumption of woollens and other European articles in- 16 Marcli 1830. crease in somewhat an analogous proportion ? — Perhaps not so extensively ; they did increase very considerably, and I myself at one time imported very '^^'' '^^^^' ■^*''"'"'- extensively. 3501. During your stay at Batavia, have you known many new Cliinese settlers fix themselves at the China Camp? — The junks generally imjjort, I think, from 800 to about 1,500, or sometimes more, annually, settlers from China. 3502. Among those new settlers is there any difficulty in promoting a consumption of European manufactures ? — They generally arrive very poor, but as soon as they obtain the means of purchasing, they do not long delay availing: themselves of it. n 3503. You have stated that many of the persons that acquired wealth in Java returned with their wealth to China, were those persons who so returned persons who were consumers of British goods and manufactures ? — They were. '3504. Have they, on returning to China, been dispersed over different parts of the country, or have they been confined to one particular province ? — They have generally gone back to the province to which they belonged. 3505. Do the emigrants to Batavia belong to one particular province, or do they come from different parts of the empire? — They come from different parts of the empire, particularly the two provinces of Canton and Fokien. 350(3. Are you aware what numbers annually return from Java to China? — No, I am not aware ; they are very few indeed compared with those who come to Java. 3507. Have the Chinese inhabitants of Batavia any particular prejudices with regard to their diet and the consumption of their food ? — Not the least. I have dined with the Chinese merchants at as good a dinner as I could have got any where in India, and I have seen recently a growing taste among them for hams, both the York and Westphalia, for fish, such as mackarel and herrings, for salt butter, and for wine and beer, and particularly Geneva. 3508. You have stated that the Chinese at Batavia are purchasers of European produce for their own consumption, and also that they purchase for sale to others ; is that as retail traders? — Yes ; as retail traders they are generally the medium of communication between the Europeans and the natives of the Archipelago. 3509. Is that trade carried on by them for cash, or by bills? — Occasion- ally both. They frequently sell for cash ; and very often they barter for produce, which they sell again to European merchants. 3510. In what description of vessels is the trade carried on between Batavia and China? — There is a trade in junks ; and there is also a trade in vessels of different nations, particularly Americans. 3511. Con- 360 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 16 March 1830. 3511. Confining yourself to the junks, will you state what description of vessels, and of what size ? — In consequence of the vexatious forms in the Mr. JoJm Deans, customs of Batavia the trade in junks fell off; and I think in 1825 there were only four junks, the trade being confined to Batavia, amounting to 440 lasts or 880 tons. Since that there has been a modification of the custom- house regulations ; the forms have been rendered more easy to them, and the eastern ports of Java have been opened, and now the trade is consider- ably increased. I think the last that I heard of the junks was, that seven or eight had arrived in Java ; certainly that number, if not more. 3512. Of what tonnage are those junks chiefly ? — Their tonnage varies ; I do not think that any of them exceed 400 tons, as far as I could judge or learn from the Chinese themselves. 3513. What is the general average? — The general average may be about 300 tons. 3514. Can you state what has been the amount of the exports from Java to China ? — The exports from Java to China in 1825, which was one of the worst years of the trade, but the only year I have an accurate account of, exceeded about 2,700,000 guilders, or £225,000 ; that was the year in which the port of Batavia only was opened. 3515. Of what produce did that consist ? — There was about £54,000 in specie, £40,000 worth of birds'-nests, £4,250 of Netherlands woollens, and the remainder consisted of a variety of articles, such as pepper, betel-nut, rattans, tripang, &c. 3516. What is tripang? — It is a sea-slug that is fished in the Eastern Archipelago. It was formeily only found in the Eastern Archipelago, prin- cipally about the Gulph of Carpentaria; the amount of it was about 14,000 peculs, which was sent to China, value about £120,000. It has been lately found to abound on the coast of Ceylon and in the Mauritius, and is likely to become an important article in the trade with China. 3517. Was there any opium forming part of that trade.? — There was; but not to any considerable extent, and principally Turkey opium. 3518. What were the imports at that time into Batavia from China? — They amounted to about £75,000. The imports were principally by the junks ; the exports were by all vessels. 3519. Of what did the imports consist? — A variety of articles suited to the Chinese settlers, of which about 7>800 was in teas. 3520. Can you state the number of square-rigged vessels which sailed from Batavia, or touched there in their way to China in that same year ? — In 1825, the number of square-rigged vessels which touched at Batavia in their way to China was sixteen. 3521. From what countries ?— Three were Dutch, four English, one Por- tuguese, and eight Americans. 352^. Have SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 361 35'i2- Have you had occasion to consider how far tlie Eastern Archipelago le March 1830. might become a channel through which teas could be sent to Europe? — 1 have. Mr. John Deum. 3523. On what occasion, and under what circumstances, did you turn your attention to that subject ? — In the beginning of 1822, when there was a talk of the stoppage of tlie trade, I thought it advisable to consult the agents of the junks as to the praclicabihty of their bringing teas suited to the European market to Batavia ; they assured me that if any interruption of the European trade occurred, they thought they could bring a very consider- able quantity next year. S521<. Was this communication with persons upon whose truth and fidelity you had reason to rely r — They were the supercargoes and agents of junks; men who conduct the whole of the trade in the junks. 3525. Were they persons with whom you had other commercial trans- actions that enabled you to rely upon the statements they made ? — Yes ; and the communication was made to them through these merchants, with whom I had had extensive dealings. 3526. Did the communications so far impress themselves upon your mind, as that if the event had occurred of the stoppage of the direct China trade, you would have given orders, and relied on the execution of those orders for supplies of tea in the way suggested? — I did not entertain the least doubt that the Chinese with whom I proposed the arrangement would have brought all the teas they could have procured, on their return from China the next season, and that they would have brought me particular accounts how far they could have continued that trade, which they seemed to be pretty con- fident they could do to a considerable extent. 3527- Should you apprehend that a trade so carried on would have ex- posed merchants like yoinself engaging in it to any fraud in the quality of the goods supplied ? — I had some apprehension of that, and I mentioned it to those Chinese ; but they assured me I need be under no apprehension, for that they dealt with respectable men, who always attached their chop or name to the packages, and that they had never been deceived. They re- minded me of a circumstance that was perfectly well known to myself, which was of the tobacco of the Cadoo, which is a province in the centre of Java, which passes throughout the whole of the Archipelago, bearing the name of the cultivator, and according to his reputation it bears a price without even being examined. I had dealt largely in this article, and I knew that this was the case ; and of course I could only assent to that observation. 3528. Are the Committee to understand that there is a class of cultivators in Java, being Chinese, who deal in tobacco in the way you have described? — They are Chinese cultivators, whose names are a guarantee for the quality of the tobacco they sell. 2Z 3529. During 362 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 16 Marcli 1830. 3529- During your residence at Batavia, have you had any evidence of disadvantages to which British ships have been subject, in consequence of Mr. John Dtnns. their exclusion from the ports of China? — I liave had many. I have often, myself, in shipping goods to China, been obhged either to get freight on foreign vessels, or to hire Dutch colonial vessels to proceed to the straits of Sunda to meet the Company's ships, for the purpose of either disposing of the produce I had for tlie China market, or of sending it on freight to China. 3530. Have you known any arrivals at Batavia from New South Wales in quest of fi-eight? — Many ; there are generally every year a considerable number of ships come from New South Wales in quest of freight. 3531. Has the state of the law put you under the necessity of shipping consignments of produce in foreign vessels ? — I have shipped in foreign vessels for China, because I could not avail myself of the unemployed British tonnage which was lying in the harbour to proceed to China, and which would gladly have done so. 3532. What produce have you shipped to China ? — I have shipped tin in large quantities, and spices, and various other articles. 3533. Have you known other British merchants compelled to have recourse to the same arrangement? — All my countrymen in Batavia settled as mer- chants were occasionally reduced to the same predicament, and I know that throughout the Archipelago it is the same. 353k Do you recollect the circumstances of the scarcity which occured in the year 1824- ? — I do. 3535. Were there any opportunities at that time afforded that would have admitted of the profitable employment of British shipping ? — I perfectly recollect that when the news of the scarcity in China first arrived in Batavia, and of the edict admitting vessels with cargoes of grain iree of port charges, there were some English ships in the roads, and some expected, that would have been dispatched with rice to China, but of course they could not be availed of in consequence of their not being allowed to go to China. 3536. Do foreign ships call at Batavia on their way to China ? — They do, particularly Americans, and avail themselves of all the chances of markets in their way. 3537. In what respect do they avail themselves of the chances of markets? — They get recent accounts from China of the state of the markets, and they there either dispose of their outward investments, or lay in such products of the Archipelago as are suited to the China market. 3538. From your intercourse during so many years with the Chinese, can you state to the Committee, whether they are indirterent to foreign trade or attach any importance to its advantages ? — The Chinese of the Archipelago, who I believe do not differ lW)m the ('hinesc in their native country, are very sensible of the importance of commerce, and are, as I have already ob- served, the keenest speculators perhaps in the country. 3539. Are SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 303 3539' Are you aware whether the foreign commerce of China becomes a 16 March 1830. source of revenue to the Chinese government, and a matter of interest to the Chinese authorities? — The foreign commerce of China is very extensive; '^^'^' '^'^^" Deans. it e.Kceeds, I beUeve, considerably £l'i,000,000 sterling, and of course, although not altogether a legal commerce, still from the greater part of it being so, the Chinese government derive a revenue, and a very considerable one as 1 understand, from it. 3540. Have you reason to know in what light the European imports into China are considered l)y tlie Chinese people, or whether they could easily be dispensed with by them ? — I know that the imports to China are of far more importance to that empire than perhaps the tea is to this country, great as it is considered, inasmuch as the opium, which is now a very extensive article of import into China, is generally used there ; and when once a per- son has been accustomed to the use of it, it cannot easily be dispensed with without danger to his health, and perhaps his life. 3541. Do you state that from your experience of the habits and customs of the Chinese people at Batavia and in the Archipelago ? — I do. I had a great deal to do in the opium trade at Java, and of course saw a great deal of the use it was put to ; and from my own observation of its effects, I can state, that those who have been long in the habit of using it could not have dispensed with the use of it without serious injury to their health. 3542. Are you aware whether the use of opium is increasing? — It has increased very rapidly indeed in China. I saw a statement of the imports into China down to the beginning of 1829, which stated it to amount to nearly two millions of pounds weight, considerably exceeding two millions and a half sterling in value. 3543. Are the other articles imported into China articles of which the in- habitants could not be deprived Vv'ithout a considerable degree of inconve- nience? — We may very easily judge of some of them. We ourselves could not well dispense with the spices, which are used in China as generally as in any other country. Some of them are articles of luxury, such as birds'-nests, w^hich are imported to a very considerable amount in China ; also trepang, and sinews of different animals, are of course not perhaps indispensable, but as much so as the tea is to us from habit, among the grandees of the coun- try ; and again, the betel-nut, which is used very extensively in China, is also an article indispensable to the lower orders in particular. 3544. From your experience of Java, and your knowledge of the increased consumption that took place in that island by the opening of the trade, what do you consider would be the effect of opening the trade to China itselfj so far as relates to the consumption of European produce and manufactures? — The enterprise of British subjects in Java was very much aided indeed by the activity of the Chinese in conforming our manufactures to the tastes and habits of the people, and from the very rapid extension of the use of those manufactures almost entirely superseding the native manufactures. I have 2 Z 2 not 364 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 16 Marcli 1H30. not the least doubt but the same change would take place in China, making allowances, of course, for the difficulties that are attendant upon having only .v.. John Deans. ^^^ j^^.^, ^^^.^ 35A!5. At the time of the occupation of Java in 1811, in what manufac- tured articles were the inhabitants, Chinese and natives, clothed? — The natives were clothed in manufactures of their own partly, and partly in the manufactures of British India; the Chinese principally in Chinese manu- factures. 3546. How long did this state of things continue ? — It began to change at the opening of the trade in 1814; and in 1828, when I left Java, the natives were almost exclusively clothed in British manufactures, and the Chinese very generally. Still, of course, they used some Chinese manufac- tures, which we have not yet been able to imitate successfully. 3547. Are there any particular European manufactures which were pre- pared and adapted for Chinese consumption ? — I myself took great pains in ascertaining the tastes, not only of the natives of Java, but of the Chinese, and was very greatly aided by the Chinese in obtaining the necessary pat- terns and forms, which I brought home to this country, and carried out a very extensive consignment conformable to those patterns ; which plan was followed afterwards by the other British merchants, and succeeded most eminently. 3548. Of what description were those articles? — With regard to broad- cloths, the particular object was to get colours suited to the people. They were principally cottons : woollens to some extent, but the cottons were the greatest quantity. 3549. How did the British imitation stand in quality and price, as com- pared with the articles which you imitated? — The best proof of how they stood in quality and price, as compared with the articles imitated, was the almost entire suppression of the native manufactures. 3550. Are the Committee to understand that there was a substitution of British manufactures for the native manufactures at that place? — There was. 3551. In 1826, had the British manuftictures so far displaced the Oriental manufactures as to give a sufficient supply of clothing to tiie people? — Most unquestionably the people, as I have already stated, are now almost entirely clothed in British maimfactures. But not oidy were the native fabrics of Java almost entirely superseded, but all the finer fabrics of Bengal were at last unsaleable in the market of Java, and the trade with Britisii India re- duced to a comparative trifle as regarded manufactures. 3552. What is the amount of the population of Java, in which this increased consumption of British manufacture took place by the influence of free trade? It is computed at about 5,OU0,OU(). Q!)53. What is your idea of the population of the empire of China ? — From the Mr. John Dfans SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. .%5 the statement I have seen, the population of the Chinese empire is computed 16 Maicli 1830. somewhere between 140,000,000 and 150,000,000. 3554. Do you consider that there are other articles besides those which are at present imported into China, which might under the operation of a free trade, find a profitable sale there ? — Judging from what has taken place in Java, where the Chinese do not differ from those in their native country, I should conceive there are many articles of sale which might be extended. 3555. Can you state to the Committee any instance of the discovery of a new article, or the extension of production of an old one, that has added to the value of the imports into China ? — I can state one, perhaps not of great importance, but it would show that there are many others with respect to which the same thing might be done. The large glasses or rummers, which are used in their houses for burning a liglit before their gods, opposite their front door. I noticed them on one occasion as being made of imperfect China-glass : I asked the Chinese if they would have any objection to British manufacture, if the same patterns were preserved, and they gave me pat- terns of them, which I brought home and had manufactured at Birmingham. I took them out, and had them sold for a considerable price, and they have since continued to be supplied from different places to a great extent. S55G. You have stated the increased consumption of tripang, has that been an article of late introduction as an import from the Archipelago into China? — Not from the Archipelago; but it has been recently discovered to abound on the coasts of Ceylon and the Mauritius, and is likely to become an article of considerable trade. 3557. Have you yourself dealt in the article? — I have, in the article prepared in the Archipelago ; but a year or two before I came home I had a consignment from Ceylon, from a house there, for the purpose of ascer- taining its value in the China market, to sell it in short for the China market. It was damaged on the voyage ; but some of it had escaped, and I had an opportunity of ascertaining its quality and value, and I found that, in consequence of the imperfect way in which it was prepared at Ceylon, that it was inferior generally to the tripang of the Archipelago, and classed with the lower qualities. 3558- Is there a considerable demand for it in China ? — Very extensive demand ; the supply has never yet equalled the demand. 3559. Are you aware what the total quantity imported into China in value has been in any one year? — I have already stated it at about 14,000 peculs. I do not know the amount now, because I do not know the extent to which it is sent from Ceylon and the Mauritius ; the value of that is about £120,000. 3560. Is the article called tripang the same as beche-de-mer? — It is. 3561. Supposing that any political or commercial transactions should lead 366 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : Mr. John Deans. 16 March 1830. lead to a prohibition of the direct intercourse between the European powers and the empire of China itself, do you conceive that the Chinese trade, both in exports and imports, might be carried on through the Eastern Archipelago ? — I cannot conceive that the Chinese can stop their trade, for the reasons already stated ; but that if they did, I certainly think that it might be carried on in that way, perhaps with some difficulty at first, but it would at last, I am of opinion, be carried on as regularly as it is now, in spite of all prohibition by that government. 3562. Have the Chinese at Batavia evinced any jealousy or indisposition to the consumption of our manufactures, or to trading with us.^^ — Not the least. 35Q3. You have stated that some of the Chinese settlers in the island of Java are agriculturists ? — They are. 3564. Do they acquire property in land there? — They do not; they rent land. In the towns they acquire, of course, property in their houses ; but in the country they are generally farmers of the land. In the district of Batavia they do acquire land where Europeans are allowed to hold land, but not in the native provinces. S5Q5. From your acquaintance with the Chinese, and other parts of the East, is your opinion with respect to the Chinese population generally the same as that which you have now stated with reference to the Chinese inha- bitants of Batavia ? — I was settled in Penang for three years, and I had charge of the pepper plantations of the late Mr. Scott there, which were entirely cultivated by Chinese, and I found no difference in their habits and manners in Penang from what I did in Java or in Sincapore, or in any other countries through which I travelled. 3566. You have stated that you had doubts whether they would furnish good tea to the extent of the tea required for the European consumption, and the only satisfaction you had was from what the Chinese told you ? — Of course, I could have no other means of obtaining information upon the subject. 3567. With respect to our manufactures being used, as you say, in great quantities in the Archipelago, do not you know that that was owing to the great fall that took place in the price of cotton goods? — Of course I am sensible of that: if our goods were not cheaper and better than their own fabrics, they would never have given them the preference. 3568. Has not that had the same effect in India to supersede the native fabrics very much? — I believe the effect is similar every where. In India, of course, it has had the same effect. 3569. Ilavo you examined the cloths of the two countries, the Chinese and the English, with respect to durability? — I have : I have dealt in them both. 3570. Do you think that the British are preferable in that respect? — The Mr. John Deans. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 36? The Chinese are more durable, because they can afford to put a greater 16 MaicU 1B30. quantity of the raw material into the cloths ; but the British cloths are generally a finer-looking fabric, and please them much better. The natives, I believe, if they can get them cheap, are not very particular with regard to the durability. 3571. If tea was supplied to Europe through the Archipelago, must it not be supplied at a higher price than it could be supplied direct from Canton ? — No ; the Chinese tell me, that in consequence of lower duties by their vessels, they thought they could supply it cheaper. 3572. Must not there be a trans-shipment? — If they brought the black teas from the province in which they are grown to Batavia, I think they would not be much dearer than they are at Canton. 3573. Do not you know that they cannot bring them from the province in which they are grown ? — I know that they cannot legally bring them, but I know that they do bring them. 3574. From what parts of China ? — From both parts, but particularly from Fokien, from Amoy. 3575. Did you ever examine the qualities of teas sold in Canton, and those which were purchased in the Archipelago? — Yes, I have. 357G, Do not you know that the black tea which is purchased by the Company at Canton is of the best quality of black tea, and better than any other that can be procured ? — I am not aware of that. I know that the Company do purciiase the best teas, but I am not aware that they are better than any other purchased in the market. 3.577. Have you not heard that they have a right of pre-emption, at least that they have the offer of all the black tea at Canton ? — I am aware that they have a preference ; but I think there are many chops of good teas that the Company do not get at last, so I have understood. The only pre- emption that the Company have is the making contracts the season before, as far as I understand, which gives them the choice of a great quantity of tea. 3578. Is not that preference given solely by the Hong merchants ; are you aware whether the outside merchants give the Company preference ? — No; the Company have a selection from a certain quantity of teas, as far as I have understood, but not from the whole of the black teas. 3579. Have you been at Canton yourself? — I have. I was twice there, but it is a long while ago ; and except in so far as my observation has enabled me to compare the manners and habits of the people in China with those of the settlers in the Archipelago, of course I would wish to speak with diffidence upon that subject. 3580. So far as your observations have gone, have your observations upon your own visits at Canton been confirmed by what you have seen and heard of 368 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 16 March 1830. of the Chinese in the Archipelago ? — I was young at the time 1 was at \f- i~r^n Canton ; but so far as my observations went, I have seen very Httle difference e ns. jjgj-^yggjj ^i^g manners and habits of the people in their native country and those settled in the Archipelago. 3581. How long were you each time at Canton ? — I cannot state exactly the time, but I think it was between two and three months each time. 3582. In what year?— In 1806-7 and 180 7-8. 3583. Can you state what are the duties upon tea and upon other goods in China, exported in native vessels, as compared with the duties on the same goods exported in foreign vessels ? — I believe the proportion is about one-third. 3584. Do you believe that tea could be supplied for consumption in this country at two-thirds the price it now bears, if the Company's monopoly no longer existed ? — Judging from the price in other countries, I should think certainly it might for less, and particularly if we pay for it in our manu- factures by a free trade. 3585. In what degree would the expense of transmitting merchandize to and from Canton become increased, if trans-shipment at Sincapore were had recourse to ? — I have no means of stating the expense accurately, because the freights will depend entirely upon the quantity of shipping that is to be had at the time. If the port of Canton was free to British shipping, I think the expense would be considerably less than the freight that the Company pay direct to Great Britain upon it. 3586. Is there any other intermediate port more direct for trans-shipment than Sincapore, and at what difference of charge? — Sincapore is as well suited as any other port; but there are ports in Java, w;r. Batavia and Angier, where there are entrepots established, and where the same trade might be conducted, and I do not think the charge would ditler very mate- rially. 3587. If the Chinese government interdicts the transit of teas to Sinca- pore, what would be tlie expense of breaking through that interdiction ? — There would be no additional expense or obstruction to what there is now, because it is illicit now. 3588. Does it go clear of charge, notwithstanding the interdiction, now ? — It goes with the usual charges which Chinese vessels pay. 3589. Could not the tea only be brought from China to Java by smug- gling? — Yes. 3590. You have said that you think tea could be furnished to this country at less than two-thirds of the present price, and you said you formed that opinion from the price of tea elsewhere ; where did you mean ? — I mean on the Continent of Europe and in America. 3591. Is the tea on the Continent of Europe of the same quality as the tea SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 369 tea that is sold by the Company here ? — I have always understood so. I Iiave 16 Murcli 1830. drunk tea on the Continent, and I have drunk tea in this country. I am no great judge; but I could not perceive there was any difference in the ^^-JohnDeam. quality. 3592. If any witness has said that it is of inferior quality, would you say that he is mistaken ? — No. Inferior tea is sometimes carried to the Con- tinent, because there the trade is free j but here, the trade being all in the hands of the Company, the quality is more equal. But there have been old teas bought in the Archipelago, taken there; and old teas are always inferior to new. 3593. Is the tea taken to the Continent old tea ? — Some of it ; but I believe not a great proportion, indeed very little. 3594. It has been stated, that the tea with which the Continent is supplied is generally an inferior description as compared with the tea used here, is that consistent with your knowledge ? — I have understood to the contrary ; not that it is better, but that it is not generally inferior. 3595. If you, as a merchant, with a freedom of trade, were exporting teas to two countries, the one a rich country and the other a poor country, would you or would you not adapt the quality of the teas to the market with which you were dealing ? — Most unquestionably. 3596. You stated that there were at one time four English ships that touched at Batavia on their way to China, what were those English ships ? — Country ships from India. 3597' Was the tea which was brought to Batavia from China brought from the provinces where the tea is grown, or from Canton ? — From Fokien, where the black tea is grown. 3598. Did you ever purchase good tea in the junks at Batavia? — Tlie description of tea brought by the Chinese junks is what we consider an infe- rior quality, suited to the taste of the Chinese settlers and the natives ; but I have purchased very excellent green tea and pekoe; but they import a very small quantity of that description. 3599. Was the green tea which you so purchased brought from the pro- vince where the green tea is grown ? — That was brought from Canton. 3600. Is there any intercourse between Batavia and the province of Kiang- nan ? — I am not aware of that. 3601. Are you aware that green tea is grown in the province of Kiang-nan ? — Yes, it is grown in the southern province. 36oa. And that that province is a maritime province ? — I am not perfectly aware of the situation of it. 3603. You have stated that the English manufactures have superseded the manufactures of Java and of China, in a great measure ; can you state whether there is any Chinese manufacture which at all resembles the 3 A English 370 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 16 March 1830. Mr. John Deans. English woollens? — I have seen a kind of flannel that they make, but I have not seen much of it, nor am I aware of its exact quality. 3604. Is it made of sheep's wool ? — It appears to be wool, or a mixture of wool and cotton. 3G05. What is the latitude of Batavia ? — Six south. 3606. Is it a fact that woollens are at a certain time of the year in request in that latitude ? — Woollens are in general request in that latitude, and very generally worn by all the classes than can afford them, both natives and Chinese. 3607. At what time of the year do they use them r — Throughout the year they require them, but more particularly in the rainy season, when there is a general moisture. 3608. Do you know whether there is a considerable import of furs into China? — I have understood so, but I am not acquainted with that trade. 3G09. Can you give the Committee any information with respect to the trade with Japan ? — The Dutch are allowed to trade with Japan, and they are only allowed to send two ships. The trade was conducted until two years ago by the Dutcli Government of Java. I have here a list of the cargoes in the year 1825, both the iuiports and exports. Since that it has got into the hands of the Dutch East-India Company, and they have very considerably extended it, I believe. 3610. Will you state the principal items of the trade ? — In the Japan trade in 1825 there were two ships, amounting in all to about 1,300 tons ; one was 6OO and the other was 7OO tons. The export cargoes consisted of 100 ps. sandal-wood; l,l67ps. Japan-wood; 500 buffalo hides; 1,638 lbs. ivory, valued at 3247 f. ; 61 lbs. camphor Baros, or Malay camphor, valued at 8,234 f.; 225 Java mats; 24 ps. cocoa-nut oil ; 113 ps. cloves, value 18,936 f ; 6,991 ps. sugar, value 104,968 f.; 338 ps. tin, 18,936 f. ; Bengal piece-goods, to the value of 20,896 f. ; hardware and porcelain, 2,250 f. ; jewellery, 1,100 f; glass-ware, 3,748 f. ; Netherlands broad-cloths, 75,209 f. ; lead, 147 ps. 2,793 f.; Netherlands cotton goods, 61,332 f.; medicine and sundries; making the total value of the export cargoes 373,853 f., or at 12*. ps. £31,1.54. 8s. 4c?. The import cargoes consisted of, viz. 720 ps. camphor, 69,120 f; 10,745 ps. copper, 617,86^2 f; 426 ps. crape, 17,748 f. ; cotton cloth, 13,978 f. ; medicine, 2,270 f ; provisions, 3,327 f. ; sackie and soy, 14,332 f.; wheat 207 bags, 2,156 f; silks, 31,600 f; sundries, 9(5,089 f ; making in all, Dutch florins, 868,482 = £72,373. 105. 3611. Are the Dutch the only European nation now allowed to trade with Japan ? — They are. 3612. Do any other European nation trade at all with them? — I am not aware that any European nation trades with them. I saw a captain of a ship from Bengal who got upon that coast, and the boats came off to him in great numbers and purchased every kind of article they had of British manu- factures ; SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. S7I factures; they had very little, unfortunately, but they sold all that they had 16 March 1830. in barter for provisions, which they were outof^ The officers of the govern- iiient also came on board and ordered him off, but at the same time asked ^'^' '^'^^^' ■O**'"**- him if he had cloth such as his coat was made of, and any articles of that kind; that they were anxious to purchase them. He said he had not: and when he came back they told him to be sure to bring articles of that kind, but on no account was he to come back. 3613. To what port is it that the Dutch are confined in Japan? — Nanga Sakkie ; they have a factory there. 3614. Do they remain constantly at the factory at that port ? — They do. 3615. Do you happen to know the population of the town ? — I do not. 3616. Do you know how the Dutch Factory conduct their busine!^s there? — The Japanese dismantle the ships when they arrive : they receive the cargo into a store, where it is valued, and they give them a return-cargo, valuing it in the same way. 3617. Are there any Japanese junks that trade at all with the Eastern Archipelago? — I am not aware of any. 3618. Have they no foreign trade of that description ? — I believe not. The Chinese trade with Japan, but I am not aware that Japan junks go to China. 3619. Do you know the number of the Chinese junks that go to Japan? — I cannot be sure of the extent, but I believe it is considerable. 3620. Is it the general impression in the Eastern Archipelago, that pro- vided a change were to take place in the mode of transacting business with Japan, a very considerable trade might be carried on with that empire? — It would be an illicit trade ; but our enterprizing countrymen generally manage to conduct a trade with every part of the world which they can get to. 3621. Should not you expect that if the free trader were admitted to China, he would find the means of carrying on trade with the empire of Japan ? — I have no doubt they would ; but if they did not, the Chinese would find the means of conveying to Japan such articles as they found would suit them, whether Chinese or European manufactures. 3622. Was not that trade carried on by the British government of Java when that island was in our possession? — It was. 3623. Under what flag ? — Under the Dutch flag. 3624. Do you conceive that the trade between Java and Japan is an in- creasing trade? — In the hands of the government it was as little as it well could be. The Dutch Company have improved upon it considerably, being rather better traders than the government, but it is nothing to what it would be if a free trade was permitted there. 3625. Do you understand that the Japanese would have any objection to 3 A 2 extend 372 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 16 March 1830. extend the trade with the Dutch government, provided the Dutch govern- ment wished ? — No, I understand that the Japanese government positively Mr. John Deans, j-gstijct the trade to two ships. They do not Hmit the size of those ships, but they will allow no more than two. 3626. How was the trade carried on during that period when we were at war with Holland ? — We sent vessels there, and they were received as Dutch ships. The Japanese were aware that they were English, but they could not acknowledge them under any other flag than the Dutch. 3627. You are aware that the trade between China and Europe is confined to Canton ; do you consider that as a proof of an anti-commercial spirit in the Chinese government, or to what cause do you ascribe that restriction ? — I should rather suppose it to be political. It would be as unfair to the Chinese to conclude that that was a proof of an anti-commercial spirit, as it would be to conclude that we had an anti-commercial spirit in Great Britain, because before 1814 the whole trade of India and China was confined to the port of London. 3628. Are there any discriminating duties upon British goods imported into Java as compared with those imports from the Netherlands? — Yes; Netherland goods imported with a certificate of origin are duty-free, while British goods direct from Great Britain, that is to say, woollens and cotton manufactures, pay 25 per cent, ad valorem ; coming by way of British India they pay 35 per cent, ad valorem. 3629. What price per cent, upon the prime cost of tea at Canton would you consider sufficient to remunerate the importer? — It would depend upon whether the trade was free. I should think, if they paid in British manufac- tures, it is probable they would sell at a profit ; and, like the trade in all other parts, be glad to realize that profit upon the returns in tea. 3630. Is it then your opinion, that if the merchants had a profit on the outward cargo, they would bring home tea for nothing? — That if they could make a remittance at par of the profits made in the cargo out they would be contented. 3631. As the trade now is, do you consider the loss of not having a remittance to Europe to be almost equal to the profit on the outward invest- ment ? — There would be great difficulty in obtaining a remittance at present, unless the returns were allowed to be made in teas or other Chinese products. 3632. Supposing the trade in tea to be perfectly free, in that case do you suppose there would be a difficulty in obtaining a remittance in return for whatever British munulactures might be exported ? — If the trade were free, I conceive there would be returns for more than the manufactures that could be sold in China for some years, because, of course, the introduction must be gradual. 3633. Have you heard any thing of the American trade from America to Canton ? — I have. 3634. Is SELECT COMMITTEE ok the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 373 3634. Is not the most favourable mode of trading with China by sending ]6 March 1830. bullion, without any goods ? — They have sent bullion in general until latterly ; when, I believe, they have come to this country, and exported both cotton ^^^- 'J^^'^ Dmns. and woollen manufactures, which they have found profitable. 3635. Have you not heard that the trade is considered to be most bene- ficially carried on between America and Canton, in sending bullion and bring- ing home tea ? — I believe they had no option ; they had nothing but bullion to take to China. 3636. How many ships iiave the Dutch sent to Japan lately? — Two: they have never been allowed to send more, and they do not send less. 3637. Are they not subject to great indignities there, when they get to Japan ? — I have understooil so ; so far as being confined to one port, having their ships dismantled and their cargoes valued, and an export-cargo given them, such as the Japanese choose to set apart for them ; but I understand it is generally done upon pretty fair principles. 3638. Are not the Europeans in China confined to one port at Canton ? — They are. 3639. Do you understand that any greater indignity is offered to the Dutch ships in Japan ? — Except the dismantling of their ships, I do not know of any other. 3640. Was not that the practice with respect to the China trade, by taking away the rudders, up to a period comparatively recent ? — I have heard so : but I cannot say up to what period it was continued. 3641. Does not the advantage of exporting bullion into China depend upon the value of the bullion in the country from whence it is exported ? — Of course it must. 3642. Were there any ships sent to Japan during your residence in Java? — There were two ships every year during the whole time of my residence there. 3643. Have not the Americans, since they carried out British manufactures to Canton, carried out fewer dollars ? — They certainly have ; they carry out no more, including both, than is sufficient to purchase their cargoes home. 3644. Do you apprehend that the trade, if free, could be carried on by British manufactures alone to Canton ? — In time I have no doubt it would, because we should imitate the manufacture of their favourite fabrics, and greatly extend the consumption of our manufactures ; but it would take 'time. 3645. Then you do not consider that in a short time the trade would be any drain of bullion from this country ?— -It would be no more a drain of bullion than it is at present, I conceive. It is the different British merchants at present trading from India to China who afford to the Company the means of purchasing tea, in place of the bullion they formerly carried out; and those 374 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 16 March 1830. those same funds would be at the disposal of respectable British merchants — — for the same purpose. Mr. John Deans. 3545 jj^^g y^^^, ^^^^ ^^^^^ in British India?— I have been there, but never resided there for any time. 3647. In what parts of India have you been ? — I was at Bombay a long while ago ; but I have been two or three times to Bengal, and I have been once at Madras. 3648. You are aware that, at present, it is not permitted to any foreign vessels to go into any port of China excepting Canton ; but supposing there was an entrepot for European manufactures, including British, in any port of the Indian Archipelago, might not they be imported from that entrepot into any other port of China in Chinese junks ? — Although the trade to China, even with foreign vessels, is confined to the port of Canton, I have understood that within the last two or three years country ships have been in the habit of proceeding to the northern ports, and have sold considerable quantities of opium along the coast, and have brought back dollars; and I have no doubt, if there was an entrepot in the Archipelago for British manu- factures, that not only British ships but native junks would carry considerable quantities to the ports of China. 3649. Have you seen many of the Chinese junks in the Eastern Archipe- lago ? — I have. 8650. What is your opinion as to their safety at sea? — During the whole time of my residence in the Archipelago, I do not recollect to have heard of the loss of any but one. They generally leave China in the favourable mon- soon before the wind, and go back in the same way : they are scarcely ever lost, and it is seldom that any accidents happen. 3651. To how many years do you apply the observation you made, that there was only one lost ? — My experience extends to twenty years. 3652. Were you in such a situation in Batavia and other parts, that if more than one junk had been lost coming to Batavia you would have known it? — 1 think it is likely that I should have known it ; we generally get pretty cor- rect reports of the losses. 3653. Have you ever been on board the junks at Batavia? — Frequently. 3654. Have you ever done any business with them in buying or selhng? — I have. ; 3655. Supposing a trade in luiropean manufactures, including British manufactures, to be carried on between the Indian Archipelago and the northern ports of China, would not tea be imported from the provinces of I'okien and Kiang-nan into the Indian Archipelago ? — They are at present imported into the Indian Archipehxgo. {\l they became in demand in the European market, I have no doubt that they would be extended as I have already stated. 3G56. Without SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 375 3656. Without their being obliged to go to Canton ? — Yes. 16 March 1830. 3G57. So that, in that case, the teas would be exported from those pro- J^J /I r> vinces of China in which they are produced without the expense of the trans- port from those provinces to Canton? — Yes. 365S. Are you aware whether tea finds its way for consumption from China to Cochin Ciiina and Siam, or the Philippines and other parts of the Indian Archipelago ? — Yes, it does. I understand that the tea from China finds its way to Siam, Cochin China, and the Philippine islands, and even to Japan. Some of that brought by Cochin China came to Sincapore, and from Sincapore found its way to Batavia. 3(i.5y. How was it brought? — In junks to Sincapore. Mr. JOHN ARGYLE MAXWELL called in and examined. MrJ.A.MmweU. 3660. Have you ever visited China, Java, and Sincapore ? — I have. 3661. Have you resided at the latter? — I have. 3662. In what capacity? — As a commission-agent and merchant. 3663. How long did you reside at Sincapore? — Better than six years. 3664. Have you been in Canton? — I have. 3665. In what year did you go to Sincapore ? — I went to Sincapore first in 1822, and I remained there till 1828. 3666. In what year were you in Canton? — I was first in Canton in 1826, and again in the end of 1828. 3667. How long did you remain each time? — The first time for about six weeks, and the last time about three months. 3668. Did the nature of your commercial transactions in Sincapore bring you into much intercourse with the Chinese or with China ? — It did. 3669. What was the nature of your intercourse? — I generally had a dis- cretionary power from my constituents to send any of their property to a neighbouring market that might promise better than Sincapore, and in ex- ercising that discretion I have often had transactions with Canton. 3670. Were your constituents resident in England? — I had constituents in Germany also. 3671. Were your consignments from Germany to any considerable amount? — In 1826 I had one consignment, to the value I think of about £12,000, from Hamburgh ; and in 1827 I had another consignment, to the value of about £30,000, from Hamburgh also. 3672. Can you state what the cargoes of those ships consisted of? — They were general cargoes, but the greater proportion of them woollens. 3673. What description of woollens? — The larger proportion of the de- scription termed ladies' cloths. I had one lot, of the value of about £5,000, shipped by the Royal Prussian Society of Stettin, and stated to me to be of the 376 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: ] 6 March 1830. the same description of cloth which was taken by the Russians for the , - -r TT7 ., Kiachta market. i\h\J. A.Maxwell. 3674. Did you send those woollens to China? — <\ made some sales of them at Sincapore, and sent the rest on to China according to my instructions. 3675. In Sincapore did you sell them to the Chinese junks? — I sold a part of them, to the value of about £1,000, at Sincapore. 3676. Are the ladies' cloths of a finer description? — They are of a finer description ; what is usually termed light woollens. 3677. What was that sent by the Royal Society of Stettin ? — An interme- diate kind of cloth, rather heavy. 3678. Can you state the proportion of the value in those cloths as com- pared with the English cloths sent to the China market, as to the (juality of cloths of the same price ? — I should think the English cloths at the same price were better in quality, and certainly better in colour. 3679. How did the portion of the consignments sent to China answer in that market ? — Not very well ; the cloths were suitable enough, but the breadths were deficient, and the colours were badly selected. 3680. Had you any English woollens under your charge? — Frequently. 3681. Do you conceive them better adapted to the market than the Ger- man woollens ?— I think that the Fnglish cloth generally is a superior article at the same price. 3682. Did you ever send any English woollens from Sincapore to Canton? — I once sent some English woollens of the description termed long-ells. 3683. How did you send them ? — I sent them under the American flag. 3684. How did that consignment turn out ? — Sales were made of them at better prices than I could have got at Sincapore. 3685. Did it realize a fair profit or not ? — Judging from the invoice I had with them, there was no profit at all ; the manufacturers usually send invoices at very advanced prices. 3686. In what year was it you sent the English woollens? — In 1824. 3687. Have you any means of knowing whether that consignment returned a profit to the original exporter or not? — The original exporter seemed satisfied with the sale I had made. 3688. Did you invest any portion of the proceeds in teas on account of your German constituents? — 1 did in 1826; I think I invested to the amount of nearly £2,000 in teas. 3689. Was this a barter transaction ? — I found it necessary to barter them for teas, otherwise I should have felt a difficulty in effecting a sale at all at that time. 3690. At that particular time was the market glutted with goods ? — It was very much glutted at that particular time. 3691. Is SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. :r/7 3fi91. Is it, however, tlie usual staie of tlie Chinese market to be very 16 Marcli 1830 much glutted with goods? — 1 cannot give any information upon that subject. 3692. With whom was this transaction conducted ? — \Vith one of the Hong Mr.J.A.MaxweH. merchants, Poonequa. 3693. How was it managed ; was there a supercargo there, or an agent at Canton? — I was at Canton myself, and employed an agent besides. 3694. Have you ever consigned goods to an agent at Canton while you were resident at Sincapore ? — The English woollens that I allude to were consigned to an agent at Canton, and these sent in 1828. 3695. To whom were they consigned? — They were consigned in 1826 to a Spanish house, Messrs. Gusani and Co.; one of the partners was an Englishman residing at Canton under the protection of the Spanish flag. They held the Spanish consulate. 3696. What is his name ? — Mr. Matheson, 3697- Is he there now ? — He is. 3698. Can you state the particulars of the assortment of tea you made in 1826 for the Hamburgh market? — 200^ chests of bohea, at 14 tales per pecul ; 500 :^ chests congou, at 25 tales per pecul ; campoy, 50^ chests, at 24 tales ; 50 i chests souchong, at 24 tales ; 50 k chests souchong at 24 tales ; 50 y'^j chests soucliong, at 25 tales ; 50 \ chests of pecco, at yO tales ; 50 i^ chests of pecco, at 90 tales; 500^ chests of hyson-skin at 24 tales; 100 8 chests of hyson-skin, at 25 tales ; young liyson, 50 i chests, at 40 tales; 25 -^ chests of young hyson, at 40 tales; hyson, lOO^ chests, at 60 tales; 25^ chests, at 60 tales; 50 j'g chests, at 60 tales; \0 \ chests imperial, at 54 tales; 10 1 chests, at 54- tales; 20 yL chests, at 54 tales; 10 i chests of gunpowder, at 60 tales ; 10 ^ chests, at GO tales ; 10 y^. chests, at 60 tales. I wish to explain, with reference to the prices I have mentioned, that I have no means of referring to the invoice of the teas; and in stating these prices, I have stated the highest limit that I authorized to be given for the teas. 1 presume they were got under those limits ; and I rather think the quantity of each kind might have been difierent from what I have men- tioned. 3699. How many pounds of black tea are contained in a quarter-chest? — About sixty-seven pounds. 3700. Do you happen to know whether there is the same contained in those quarter-chests as would be contained in the quarter-chests imported by the East-India Company? — I have no access to know what the chests imported by the East-India Company contained. 3701. Can you tell whether the quality of the teas afibrded satisfiiction to your employers? — I have every reason to think that the quality did afford satisfaction. The prices were considered very high by a respectable house, to whom the better portion was sent ; but the quality was not complained of in any way. 3 B 3702. Have Mr. J. A. Maxwell. 37s EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: It) March 1830. 3702. Have you reason to think that the price was higher than the mar- ket price in China at the time ? — Having taken them on barter for an article so unsaleable as the cloths were, at the time the prices were a shade higher, but probably not much. 3703. Had there not been a fall in the price of teas in Europe at the time they arrived ? — There was a fall of 20 to 30 per cent, intermediately. 3704. At what time did the fall take place? — My letter from Hamburgh, of the 30th of October 1826, advises a fall from 20 to 30 per cent. 3705. When did the ship arrive in Hamburgh ? — The ship left Sincapore the May following ; the teas came down in January 1827, and the ship arrived for them in May 1827. It arrived in the course of the season at Hamburgh. 3706. Supposing that fall not to have taken place in the European market, do you conceive that the result of the investment would have been profitable, or otherwise ? — My attention was strongly called to teas by the house alluded to, from which I suppose they considered it a more advantageous remittance than any other. The assortment was according to what they ad- vised as suitable. 3707. What was the name of the house ? — The house of Merk and Com- pany, of Hamburgh. 3708. Was the transaction, in point of fact, advantageous or otherwise? — I am not aware whether there was any communication made to me by that house as to the actual result. 3709. What commission were you in the habit of charging ? — Five per cent, on sales, two and a half per cent, on remittances in produce, one per cent, for remittances in bills, and one per cent, on trans-shipping merely. 3710. Does the commission vary much ? — The rates I have stated were those fixed by a meeting of the merchants in Sincapore, and I believe them to be the rates in general use. 3711. From your observation at Canton, should you say that the English, and especially the English Factory, are held in higher estimation than other foreigners by the Chinese government ? — I think the Chinese government seem to tlirow the same discredit very much upon all foreigners. On this point I can, however, refer to what I consider an authentic translation of two communications from the authorities at Canton, addressed to the court at Pekin, about the time of the Topaze's affair. 3712. In what year was that? — It was about the year 1821. With regard to the Christian merchants, *' 1 reasoned with them," said the governor, "and pf'inted out to them the great principles of justice and equity, and showed that it was right for them to do what I required of them ; but all in vain ; good principles and solemn truths had no etlect upon them, and I was compelled to interdict their trade to touch their gains. And no sooner was that done than they submitted. They are a mercenary gain-scheming set of adventurers, SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 379 adventurers, whom reason cannot rule ; the dread of not making money is 1^ Marcli 1830. that wliich alone influences them." And again, " '1 he English might at ■~T7 any time be brought to stoop if tea were refused ; but if they could get the ' ^ ' ' ' "^"* tea in any other way, they would be careless about pleasing China, would indeed despise her, and do as their humours dictated. By Tea-Reins, said the governor to the great Emperor, alluding to the management of a vicious horse, your majesty can control the English, therefore let us take care that they get no tea but what we choose to give them." 3713. How do you know that to be an authentic document ? — It was published at the Anglo-Chinese College of Malacca, in 1823 ; and from the connection of Dr. Morrison with that establishment, I think that every thing connected with China, coming from the Anglo-Chinese College, has the weight of his authority. 3714. Do you conceive that the English Factory at Canton possess any other weight than that which results from the extensive nature of their deal- ings ? — From any thing that has ever come under my knowledge 1 have no reason to think that they have. 3715. Do you not conceive that private merchants, carrying on the same extent of business, would probably possess a similar degree of influence ? — I conceive that if the English trade to China had been carried on through private merchants, in the way that it has been done by the Americans, the .same consequences would probably follow ; that the advantages of the trade would become more generally diffused among the Chinese, and that a nume- rous body of Hong merchants could present more formidable obstacles to the encroachments of the government than one or two or three individuals, as at present. 3716. Do you think that the American influence in China has increased or declined within the last fewvears? — I think it has declined since the departure of Mr. Cushing from China. 3717- Can you state any advantages which were gained to the American trade under Mr, Cushing's management ? — The American trade escaped under Mr. Cushing's management, or rather measurement, to a great degree, the port charges at China. American ships coming in ballast were enabled to take cargoes of rice to Canton, and thereby gain exemption from the charges alluded to. 3718. Was Mr. Cushing held in great estimation in Canton ? — He was considered to have more influence with Howqua, the chief Hong merchant, than any other individual whatever. 3719. Not excepting the members of the Select Committee? — Not ex- cepting any one. 3720. Do the Chinese admit cargoes of provisions without payment of duty? — An edict was issued about the year ISS^, a scarcity of rice being apprehended, authorizing ships bringing, I think, t,200 peculs of rice to be .3 B 2 exempted, 380 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : , 16 March 1830. exempted, without payment of certain port charges. The edict was after- tTTt // wards modified ; and now, I believe, any vessel, without reference to size, 1 r.j. .. nxwe . [j,.ir,g[„g ^ full cargo, is admitted without paying these charges. 3721. Do you know any other ships, except Americans, that have in this way escaped these charges in China ? — There was one case that came within my own personal knowledge, of a ship under the Dutch colonial flag : but many cases may exist in Java that have not been within my observation. 3722. What was the name of that ship ? — The Sourabaya. 3723. Do they escape the charges on departure, as well as those on entering r — There are no port charges on departure : they escape entirely wiiat is usually called the measurement charges. 3724-. Do they escape the cumshaw ? — I do not think they do altogether ; they escape perhaps only that portion which goes to the government, merely, of every charge. 3725. Are there frequent instances of bankruptcies among the Hong merchants in China ? — Two have occurred within the time that I have been in India. 3726. Do you know the names of them ? — The last was Manhop, in 1828, for about a million and a half of dollars ; the name of the other was Konsequa. 3727 Do you know what was the result of that failure? — The Co-hong, that is the body of the Hong merchants, are on those occasions considered responsible for the debts of the person failing : and in the case of Manhop they came with great difficulty, into an arrangement to pay his debts, without interest, in five years ; but in Konsequa's case it was, I believe, eight or nine years without interest. 3728. Were the debts paid in those cases? — They were in the course of liquidation. Manhop's only took place in 1828. 3729. Is it the general expectation that his debts will be paid ? — I believe it is. 3730. Do you know whether Manhop or Konsequa were either of them indebted to the Company? — I could not understand that Manhop wasj he was indebted to some of the supercargoes, 1 believe, but not to the Company. 3731. Was Konsequa indebted to the Company? — I have no knowledge of the particulars of Konsequa's affairs. 3732. Do you know any thing of the mode in which petitions are pre- sented to the Chinese authorities at Canton ? — It is a great object to assemble as great a force as possible on these occasions, and to proceed with as much secrecy and despatch, as to escape the observation, if possible, of the persons stationed at the gate j and when they gain possession of the gate, they SELECT COMMITTEE of tiii: HOUSE OF COMMONS. 381 they endeavour to maintain themselves there till a Mandarin appears, for the 't* Marcli 1830. nuruose of receiving the petition. It is generally a scuffle at the t^ate. ,TT7 ' ' or o ^ o Mr.J.A.Ma.ru>ef/. 3733. Do you know any instance of such a petition being presented while you were residing at Canton ? — There was a petition presented at the gate in October 1828, by the supercargoes of the East-India Company. 3734. Do you happen to know whom they were headed by ? — I tliink the deputation was headed by Mr. Davis of the Company's Factory, accompanied by the commodore, and some of the commanders and officers and seamen of the fleet. 3725. What was the object of that petition? — The inferior Mandarins, I believe, at Macao, had interfered with the conveyance of letters, and with the landing of passengers' luggage at Macao; the object was to obtain redress for those grievances. 3736. Did they obtain redress ? — Immediately. 3737. Do you know any thing of the duties levied at Canton on exports and imports? — A table of duties was published by the Anglo-Chinese college at Malacca in tiie year 1823, the only table that I have ever seen. 3738. Do they include the Consoo charges? — They do. 3739. Do you know whether there is much smuggling in China? — The opium trade is altogether a smuggling trade. 37'1'0. How many ships have you ever seen conducting the opium trade together ? — When I passed Lintin there were fourteen ships lying there, and I should think ten of them were opium ships. 3741. Of what country were they? — One American and one Portuguese, and I think the rest were country ships. 3742. Is the opium taken to China chiefly Indian opium ? — Almost alto- gether Indian opium. 3743. Does it come from the Company's territories- — It is grown alto- gether in the Company's territories, excepting what comes from the Portu- guese territories. 3744. Do you know whether it is packed in chests bearing their mark ? — Always, as far as my recollection goes : I have often opened chests, and I never found their mark wanting. 3745. Have not the Chinese government found it impossible to put this trade down ? — Quite impossible ; they have issued repeated edicts against it, but to no effect. 3746. To what circumstance do you attribute the rapid increase in the consumption of opium in China.? — To the greater facility that is afforded at Lintin by the ships lying there, to what there was formerly, when the ships lay at Macao or at Whampoa. 3747. Do you know whether there is much smuggling in China in the articles 16 March 1830. 382 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: iLr T ^ nf „ articles of export? — As far as my own experience went, I found the parties who were not Hong merchants ready to make a bargain either way ; that is, to dehver the article as a smuggled article at Lintin, or in the usual way at Whampoa. 3748. Have not they some term by which they distinguish the illicit trade ? — They usually call it the Smug-pigeon. 3749. Were you at Canton when the Hong merchants interdicted the shopmen from conducting the business ? — It occurred some time previous to my last visit to Canton in 1828. 3750. Was it generally considered that the Company's Factory had instigated the Hong merchants to do that ? — That was the general im- pression. 3751. What was the effect upon the trade ? — At first the effect was to in- terdict all dealings with the shopmen. 3752. Did that state of things last long ? — When 1 arrived there its effects were visible ; but before I left China they had almost entirely dis- appeared. S753. What interval elapsed between your arrival and your departure ? — Three months. 3754. Who were the principal sufferers by this? — The Americans: they conducted the greater part of their business with the Hong merchants. 3755. Did they make their remonstrances to the Viceroy ? — They made two remonstrances, and had a reply to one of them ; but I believe it was ad- dressed to the Hoppo. 3756. Have you any copy of them ? — I have. 3757. Will you state the date of the first remonstrance, and by whom it was made? — The date of the first is omitted ; it professes to be signed by N. Talbot, consul or agent for the United States of America, T. W. Oliphant, N. Dunn, J. R. Latimer, J. H. Blight, &c. &c. 3758. How many Hong merchants are there who transact business? — There are only three, or, at the utmost, four in established credit. 3759. Do you consider them possessed of sufficient capital for carrying on the whole foreign commerce at Canton? — Certainly not. 3760. Have you heard any estimate of the value of the whole export and import trade at Canton ? — 1 have heard the European and American trade estimated at (30,000,000 of dollars. 3761. What proportion of this trade is considered to be carried on by the East-India Company? — About one-fourth. 37G2. Is the invoice value of the trade of the East-India Company in Great Britain and China larger than that of the Americans? — Those circum- stances have never come within my knowledge, except upon reference to Par- SELECT COMMITTEE ok the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 383 Parliamentary documents, and according to those I made up a statement 16 March 1830. from the year 1821 to 1827 inclusive. The result of that statement is, that 7TT the American trade for these six years exceeds that of the Company by '' * "*'*■"'• £382,812 sterling. 3763. Do you speak of the imports or the exports ? — The imports and ex- ports together. 3764. Will you have the goodness to deliver in the statement you have made out ? — [The witness delivered in the same, which was read, as follows .-] ACCOUNT of the Trade (Total Import and E.\port) of the Americans and of the East- India Company with China for the six years ending I826-7.* American Trade. 1821-2 £ 3,306,004 1822-3 1823-4 1824-5 1825-6 1826-7 3,436,960 2,597,893 3,783,686 3,576,862 1,778,293 £ 18,479,698 Average dP 3,079,949 East-India Company's Trade. 1821-2 .f 2,678,422 1822-3 1823-4 1824-5 1825-6 1826-7 Average Difference 2,630,002 2,805,428 2,500,898 2,538,932 3,029,144 £ 16,182,826 2,697,137 382,812 £ 3,079,949 * Note. — Papers relating to the trade with India and China, printed 4th June 1829: Nos. 20 and 25. 3765. Have you found any difficulty in carrying on your commercial in- tercourse with the Chinese at Canton ? — I have never been any where where business is so easily done as at Canton, on the same scale. 3766. What is the language generally employed there in conducting busi- ness ? — A broken kind of English, a ra-ixture of English and Portuguese, is in general use, and is now so well established that there are schools for teaching it. 3767. Where are the schools ? — In the neighbourhood, I should suppose, of the shopmen. I have heard boys of twelve years of age speak it. 3768. Did you ever know an English private ship with an entire Euro- pean crew go to Canton ? — I have known several private traders with Euro- pean 384 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 16 March 1830. pean ciews. I went myself up to Canton in 18^26 in one of them, tlie ~ — Exmoutii ; and I knew another, the Sarah; she loaded at Macao in 1828, r. .A.Mmtvell. before I left, witli a cargo on account of the Company's commanders at Macao. 3769. What were those crews ? — Europeans in both instances ; and I heard of many others. 3770. Were they a mixed crew of Europeans or entirely English ? — I should think tiie greater proportion of the crew that I went up with was English : I believe the whole were English. 3771- Did you ever hear of any difficulty at Canton on account of the vessels that traded there with English crews? — Never. 3772. Under what permission did those ships go to Canton ? — In the case of the Exmouth she went by permission fiom the Bombay govern- ment. In the case of the Sarah, I think it was by permission of the Bombay government also. The Exmouth carried a cargo of cotton from Eombay to Canton. 3773. Have you ever known of any country ships proceeding to Chinese ports north of Canton, and trading with the natives ? — I have heard of several of those adventures. 3774*. Can yon state what the cargoes were that they took? — The cargoes generally consisted of opium, almost altogether ; in some cases they took a little saltpetre, I believe. 3775. Did they find any difficulty in effecting sales with the natives ? — I understood that they always effiicted sales ; I did not hear that there were any extraordinary difficulties. 3776. What were the ports they went to ? — Many of the ports have escaped my recollection, but 1 recollect the port of Chingchoo and Chusen, and the island of Formosa. 3777. Do you know where those ports are situated ? — Chingchoo is in the province of Fokien. 3778- Wliat reception did you understand the natives gave to those ad- ventures? — I believe they gave a good reception. A Spanish gentleman, who was a supercargo in one of the expeditions, told me that he landed on Formosa and walked several miles. I recollect his mentioning particularly that he observed the remains of European houses there, which he considered to have been the remains of those th4* were occupied by the former Dutch factory at F'ormosa. 3779. Do you know how long it is since that factory was removed? — I should think more than one hundred years. 3780. Did you understand that the sales which were effected at the northern ports were at a considerable advance above the Canton prices ? — I could not understand that there was any great advance. I heard the parties SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 385 parties mention that they found the Chinese dealers there in possession of" ]<\ M;iicli is^o. regular price-currents from Canton, stating the stock on hand of opium, and other circumstances connected with the market. Mr.J.A.M(i.nrfU. 3781. Do you remember an instance of the Merope making an adventure of that nature ? — The Merope returned from one of those adventures a few days before my arrival in China : 1 boarded her at Lintin as I was passing. 3782. Had she disposed of all her cargo ? — I understood of the whole of it. 3783. Do you know what was received in exchange for her commodities? —I believe silver. 3784. No tea? — I never heard of any tea. 3785. You have mentioned price-currents being found in the northern ports of China, do you mean that the Chinese themselves had price- currents, or only European price-currents ? — The Chinese themselves had price-currents ; regular statements of the markets. 378G. Does that consist, with your knowledge, respecting the Chinese in other countries ? — I have found the Chinese in the Straits of Malacca always well-informed of the state of the markets in Canton. 3787. Would there be any serious injury sustained by the government officers at Canton by the interruption of the trade at that port ? — The government appointments at Canton are understood to be more valuable than any other appointments under the Chinese government, in consequence of the foreign trade. S788. How many British subjects are there residing in China, indepen- dent of the Company's Factory? — Natives of Britain, about thirty. 3789. What are the usual rates of commission charged by British houses of agency at Canton? — Three per cent, on sales, two and a half on returns in produce, one per cent, on returns in bills; but these points are usually matter of arrangement between parties. 3790. Where there any Chinese residing at Sincapore when you were there? —A great many ; the largest proportion of the population are Chinese. 3791. What impression has the Chinese character made on you ? — That they are very shrewd, intelligent, and enterprizing people, more alive to the value of character than any other Asiatics that I have ever met with. 3792. Do you consider them to be a commercial people? — Highly commercial ; their commercial propensities are stronger than those of any other people. 3793. Is there much intercourse between Sincapore and China in Chinese junks ? — A very considerable intercourse ; about eight junks annually. S794. Do you know the size of the largest of the junks? — It is very difficult to estimate them by European tonnage ; they are very unwieldy. 3 C looking 386 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : ]6 March 1830. looking vessels, I should think the largest of them is about 800 tons that I have seen at Sineapore, and the smallest about 500. Mr.J. A. Maxwell. „ , 3795. From what ports of China do they come ; — The largest, but the least valuable, come from Canton ; the smaller ones (the green-headed junks, as they are termed, from the green paint on their bows) are from Fokien. 3796. Do you know the nature of the cargoes they generally bring? — The cargoes are generally intended for the Chinese colonists in the Archipelago. The Canton junks generally bring a large quantity of coarse earthenware, some raw silk, nankeens, tobacco, sacrificial paper, and various articles for the use of the Chinese colonists. The Fokien junks bring almost the same articles, with the addition of camphor, sugar-candy, and a large quantity of silk and nankeens. 3797- Do they import any tea to Sineapore ? — They every year bring teas for the use of the Chinese colonists. 3798. Is not that a tea of an inferior description ? — It is not perhaps a superior tea, but it is not inferior to what the general class of Chinese colonists use. 3799. How do you designate it ? — It is black tea ; but I do not know the particular denomination. 3800. Have you known any quantity of tea brought down to Sineapore for other use beside that of the Chinese ? — One season there were about 5,000 boxes brought down. 3801. Supposing the trade in tea to be thrown open, do you conceive that tea might be imported into Sineapore of a quality fit for the European market, and in sufficient quantity ■ — I have no ground for speaking positively on that subject ; but several of the Chinese there have frequently offered to contract with me for the supply of black teas from Fokien. 3802. Can you state with respect to green teas? — They would come direct from Canton, and it would be more difficult to get them, I should think. 3803. Are you aware whether the green teas are also grown in the mari- time province ? — I rather think they are not grown in a maritime provice. 380 k On what terms did they offer to supply them ? — The thing never got to that length, for I could not have made use of the teas if I had got them. 3805. Do you consider that they will deliver them at Sineapore upon somewhat the same terms on which they are now sent to Canton ? — They stated with great confidence that they could deliver them at Sineapore on such terms as would make it an object for Europeans to purchase them. 380G. How did they suggest that this object could be accomplished ? — They suggested to inc to obtain at Canton chops of the different descriptions of teas that were supplied (by chops, I mean the Chinese name in Chinese charac- Mr.J.A.Mamill. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 387 characters); they proposed to send those chops up to Fokien, and to secure 16 Mmcli 1830. a supply of tea by the return of the junks. 3807. Have you ever heard that there is an imperial edict against the exportation of teas sea-wise ? — I am aware that such an edict exists. 3808. Do you think that wouhl prevent such an intercourse taking place ? — No ; I think they would disregard it, as they do other edicts. 3809. Are they in the habit of disregarding all edicts, the object of which is to stop foreign trade ? — I never heard a Chinese quote an edict as an obstacle to the purposes he had in view. 3810. Have you ever heard of tea imported direct from China into Cochin China, or Siam ? — I believe part of the lot I have alluded to of 5,000 boxes was imported into Sincapore from Sygoon in Cochin China. 3811. Is there much intercourse between Sincapore and the kingdoms of Siam and Cochin China? — There is a great deal of intercourse, particularly with Siam. 3812. What quantity of vacant European tonnage do you think returns annually from China to Sincapore ? — About 12,000 tons ; ships from the Presidencies that carry cotton or other cargoes to China, and coming back in ballast. 3813. Do many vessels resort to Sincapore and Batavia from New South Wales ? — A great many. The last five years I was in India there was about an average of at least 3,000 tons to India from New South Wales. 3814. What information have you lately received from Sincapore as to the rates of freight ? — The latest quotations from Sincapore were for tin, as deadweight, 255. a ton ; sugar, £3 a ton ; coffee, £3. 10a. ; measurement goods, £t per ton. 3815. In what degree would the expense of transmitting merchandize to and from Canton become increased if trans-sliipment at Sincapore were had recourse to ? — As compared with the present freights, I should think the expense would be diminished greatly. 3816. Do you consider Sincapore a convenient entrepot for European and Chinese merchandize? — Highly convenient ; the most convenient station in the Archipelago. 3817. Should you anticipate great commercial benefit to this country, upon the whole, from the removal of the Company's monopoly in China ? — Certainly. 3818. Have the Chinese any manufactories at Sincapore at the present time? — They have manufactories of pearl, sago, and of gambier. 3819. Does it consist with your knowledge that they have sent for steam- engines and machinery from England to carry on those manufactories at Sincapore ? — It consists with my knowledge, that one Chinese wished to have a steam-engine of three or four-horse power, and that he authorized a 3 C 2 house 388 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS; 16 Marcli 1830. Mi-.J.A. Maxwell. house at Sincapore to procure that steam-engine for him, if it could be got at a certain expense. 3820. Has it arrived ? — Not when I left Sincapore. 3821. Are you aware that Prussian blue was an article of very consider- able import into China r — I understood it was. 3822. Is it so now ? — I believe not, in consequence of a Chinese that had acquired a knowledge of the process in Europe having settled himself at Canton, where he manufactures it now. It did not come within my own personal observation, but I heard the thing generally talked of at Canton. 3823. Do you consider the East-India Company's Factory in China indis- pensably necessary to the maintenance of the British commercial intercourse with that country ? — I have never heard it considered so, and I do not consider it so. 3824. Do you consider it conducive to the facility of trade generally ? — There being only a particular trade carried on through the Factory, 1 cannot state that it is conducive to the general trade of the country : the general trade has had no access to China. 3825. Are the Committee to understand that, in your opinion, the Company's Factory at Canton is of no advantage to any other trading community but the East-India Company ? — I think that the Company's Factory, from the magnitude of their operations, have great influence with the Hong merchants ; and that, whenever they may choose to exercise that influence in favour of any particular interest or other, to that extent it will be beneficial to that particular interest. 3826. Are you aware that there was no factory at Canton before 1758 ? — I have understood so. 18 March 1830. Ctipt. W. L Pope. Jovis, 18° die Martii, 1830. Captain WILLIAM LANGLEY POPE called in, and examined. 3827. Are you engaged in the sea-service r — I am. 3828. Did you make any voyage in the year 1826, and in what ship? — I left England in 1826 in the Boyne ; I went to New South Wales, and from thence to China. 3829. What was the tonnage of your vessel?— She was 620 tons register, or thereabouts. 3830. By whom were you chartered in these two voyages? — I was chartered out by the Government, and home by the East-India Company. 3831. Did you make that voyage and reach Canton ? — I left England, to the SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 389 the best of my recollection, in May, and went to Cork. I left Cork in IH Muich IH.JO June 1826, and I returned in September 1827 to London. 3832. Did you take any cargo from New South Wales to Canton ? — "^' ' " "'"' None, except the cargo that I took from England, which was some iron and flints. That I took on with me. 3833. Did you dispose of the iron and flints at Canton, and at what rate of profit? — I sold the iron at 125 per cent, profit. The flints were bought here for £30 for fifty tons, and sold there for upwards of 900 Spanish dollars, or nearly £225 sterling. 3834<. Will you state the amount of that in sterling money? — According to the exchange the dollar was then 5s., therefore it would be a quarter. 3835. What would have been the freight of the iron and flints? — I am not aware what it would be to Canton, but it would be to any part of India from two to three pounds per ton. 3836. How many tons of iron had you ? — I think about twenty. 3837. What cargo did you take on board at Canton for Europe ? — I loaded with teas for Europe, 3838. How long did you remain at Canton ? — The ship was three weeks at V\'hampoa, that is the place where they usually load, but I was altogether in China five weeks. 3839. What length of time were you in completing your commercial arrangements at Canton, in selling what you had to sell, and purchasing what you wished to buy? — Three weeks. 3840. Could you have completed those transactions in a shorter time ? — I think it could have been done in a fortnight. 3841. Were the port charges upon the ship Boyne paid by you? — The port charges were paid by the East-India Company. 3842. Can you state what those port charges were, or had you any means of ascertaining what they were upon ships of a similar tonnage ? — Yes ; on the ship Lady East, of 651 tons. I have an extract from her accounts, and the whole, including pilotage, is 5,202 Spanish dollars. 3843. Can you state the details of that account? — I can. The cumshaw and measurement, 4,436 dollars 80 cents ; linguist and compradore, 477 dollars ; commission on the above sums, 122 dollars 4 cents. Paid by ship — Pilotage, bar-boats, and outside pilot, I67 dollars ; making together 5,202 dollars and 84 cents. But the I67 dollars were paid by the owners of the ship ; the Company do not pay the pilotage. 3844. You have stated that you took tea on board at Canton, was that tea entirely on the Company's account, or any part of your own ? — There were twelve tons of my own teas. 3845. How much of the Company's '—According to their regulation there 390 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 18 Marcli ISM), there were 596 tons ; that is, according to their way of calculating tonnage, — — from 800 to 1,000 pounds weight, which, when put into cases, will measure Cf/jjt. fl . L Pope. y2 cubical feet. According to that the Boyne had on board, with my tonnage, altogether 875 tons of 50 cubical feet to the ton, which is the customary measurement. 384G. How did you buy the tea which you purchased on your own account ? — I bought it through an agent. 3847. Are you aware whether it was purchased by that agent from the Hong merchants, or from the outside merchants ? — From a Hong merchant, I believe. 3848. Was the quality of your tea good ? — I believe it to be as good as any on board the ship. 3849. Had you ever been before in China ? — I never had 3850. Did you find any difficulty in carrying on your commercial transac- tions there? — Not the slightest whatever. 3851. Had any of your officers or crew been there before? — None of the officers had, perhaps some of the men may have been there before, but it is unknown to me. 3852. As to the comparison with a voyage to Bengal or Bombay, did you find more or less difficulty in Canton in making your arrangements than you would in other places ? — I found greater facility in transacting business at Canton than I had in any part of India, and I have been to all the Presidencies in India. 3853. Had you any intercourse with the merchants at Canton that would give you information with respect to the result of opening the trade ? — I had rot much communication with the merchants, any more than merely in selling the little I had on the ship's account ; but they were excessively anxious to know if I had any goods on board for sale. 3854. AVere you able to ascertain whether you could have disposed of them at a profit, if you had had such goods on board ? — I was told that I could dispose of British manufactured goods, at that time, at a great profit. 3855. Had you any guns on board ; and what was the number of your crew ? — I had four guns ; and the crew were forty-nine, including myself and officers. 38.56. Had you any difficulty in maintaining discipline amongst those persons, or any complaints made against them, whilst you were in the river at Canton? — I had no difficulty whatever. Part of the crew landed twice on Dean's Island, which they are allowed to do, according to the Company's regulations; they returned very orderly, and were very obedient. S857. What was the reason you had so large a crew as forty-nine persons ? ' — According to the regulations of the charter-party. 3858. Were SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 391 3858. Were those regulations in consequence of tlie Boyne iiaving been 18 Marcfi 1830. used as a convict ship ? — To the best of my recollection, forty-seven men were the number re(|uired by the Transport Board; but forty-nine were i upt-^^- I--P'>V'- required by the Company. 3859. What number would you have considered necessary for the purposes of the management of your ship for ordinary commercial purposes, if you had not been bound by the charter-party ? — I have since been to India in the same ship as a free trader, and the whole of the crew, I think, were in number forty-five ; but then there were four servants to attend on passengers, and an extra cook, and a butcher and poulterer, which we had not on the former voyage, which being deducted reduced the number of effective men to about thirty-five ; and I found them quite sufficient. 3860. If you had been sailing in the Boyne for purposes purely of a commercial character from England to Canton, without passengers, what crew would you have felt sufficient for the due security and navigation of the vessel ? — I should say forty would be quite a sufficient number for that vessel. 3861. In loading your vessel at Canton, did you make use of Chinese or of your own hands ? — My own people received and stowed the cargo ; I had not a Chinese on board. 3862. Are you aware what is the usage with respect to the Company's ships ? — I believe it to be usual with them to employ Chinese for the purpose of stowing their cargoes ; but my men were so orderly that I had no occasion to employ any. 3863. What did your crew consist of? — Europeans. 3861. Of what nations ? — Probably I might have had some of all nations. 3865. Was the bulk of the crew Englishmen? — Yes. There might have been four or five foreigners, but they had been many years in English vessels. 3866. Can you state what was the damage the owners had to pay to the Company for tea spoiled ? — There was some slight damage, to the amount of about £200; but that was in consequence of improper ballast, and I had to come round the Cape of Good Hope in the dead of winter : 1 was a month off the Cape in hard gales. 3867. Are you aware what the proportion of damage in the Company's large ships is ?■ — I have not any idea ; but I have heard that some of them damage a great deal. 3868. Do you think the class of ship you commanded calculated to bring the tea in as good order as the large ships employed by the Company ? — I do. 3869. Do you say that from your own knowledge, as a seaman? — I do. 3S70. Are you aware what proportion of tea-cargo you carried, compar- ing 392 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 18 Maicli 1830. ing the registered tonnage of your ship with the registered tonnage of the ~ — large ships? — Yes, the large ships; some of them take a few tons less than I apt. II. L. Pope. ^[^gjj. tonnage, some take a few more. My ship took a few tons less than her tonnage ; but there were several other small ships that were chartered in the same year that took a considerable quantity more than their tonnage. 3871. Do you mean to say, that a 1200-ton ship of the Company does not carry more in proportion to her tonnage than your ship of 600 tons ? — She does not. I am satisfied that we carry in proportion equal to any 1200-ton ship. 3872. Do you think that two 600-ton ships would bring home as much tea as one of the Company's 1200-ton ships ? — Yes. 3873. Would they bring more ? — About the same quantity. 3874. Would they bring it in as good condition as the larger ships ? — They would, leaving Canton at the season at which they do, which is a favourable time to come round the Cape of Good Hope. 3875. What freight were you chartered for? — £10. 18s. for the cargo home. 3876. Do you know what was the rate of freight paid on the Company's regular ships from Canton to England for tea the season vou were there ? — I "believe from £18 to £24.. 3877. Do you mean that the officers' tonnage was sold at that rate ? — Perhaps more; but the owners of those ships at that time were receiving the lowest, I believe, £1S, and the highest £24. 8878. The question refers solely to the freight home from China in the officers' privilege ? — The officers got £35 to £40 a ton from private indivi- duals. 3879. Do you know of any getting that rate at that season ? — I heard of several ; and I believe some got as much as £38. 3880. You have stated that the freight of the tonnage paid for your ship from Canton to England was £10. 18s. ; what was paid to the shipper by the Transport Board for a voyage from London to New South Wales ? — £5. 9s. Qd. 3881. And you stated that you took on from New South Wales to Canton twenty tons of iron and fifty tons of flints ? — Yes. 3882. Was any cargo put on board at New South Wales and carried on to Canton ? — None. 3883. At what rate of freight did you estimate those seventy tons ? — I never made a calculation, as we were permitted by the Transport Board to put it in as dead weight, and it was also permitted by the East-India Com- pany. 3884. You admit that that was an advantage to the shipj^? — It was ; the Chinese SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 393 Chinese will not allow a ship to enter their port unless she brings something 18 Marcli 1830. in the shape of cargo. 3885. When you stated that the freight paid by the Company is from £18 ^^P^-^^ LPope. to £24, are not you aware that this is for a voyage out and home circuitous? — Quite aware. 3886. From the experience you have had in stowing cargoes in different parts of the world, will you state whether there is any particular art, or any greater difficulty in stowing a tea-cargo than any other cargo from any other port where you have been ? — I believe a tea-cargo to be the easiest cargo there is to stow, because the chests are square. 3887. Have you ever been on board the Company's ships while stowing tea ? — I have. 3888. Do you not use tiie same mode of setting up the chests, by screws, as they do on board the Company's ships? — When it is necessary. 3889. Then you do not consider any peculiar art required in the stowage of tea, more than that of a general cargo ? — I do not ; for my teas were stowed by an officer who never stowed a tea-cargo before, and it was ap- proved of here by the Company's surveyors after my arrival in England. 3890. Would you not consider that a tea-cargo could be stowed more easily than a general cargo of different kinds of goods, which required placing according to the nature and quality of the article? — I believe it to be much easier than a general cargo. 3891. Do you know what profit you made upon the tea? — I think it paid about £35 a ton profit. 3892. Are you aware of the quality of the Company's tea which was im- ported on board your ship ? — I believe it to be good ; but I am not aware. There were different sorts of tea; there were boheas, twankays, hyson, and souchong. 3893. Are you aware of the quality of the tea laden on board your ship, belonging to the Company ? — 1 am not, as I before stated. 3894. How then can you assert that your own is as good as that belonging to the Company ? — Because I do not believe there can be better tea got in China than what I had. 3895. You stated that the Company's officers are employed to lay the cargo on board the ships ; are you sure of that fact ? — I am quite sure of it. 3896. You stated that you met with great facilities in the lading and un- lading of your ship in China ; are you not aware that that was in conse- quence of yours being a Company's ship, under the orders of the super- cargoes? — 1 am ; but I saw several ships there that were country ships, and ships that were not employed by the Company, that were despatched, and met with the same facility that I did. 3897- Are you of opinion that no advantage attached to the circumstance 3D of 394- EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 18 March 1830. of your having been in the employment of the Company at that time? — I do not think there was, so far as regards the despatching of the ship. If there Capt. W. L. Pope, j^^j been an agent there to procure the cargo and have it ready, she would have been despatched as soon as she was by the East-India Company's supercargoes. 3898. Are the Committee to understand that the Company's regulations induced you to navigate the Boyne with one-fourth of the crew that you would have had if you had consulted your own interest? — I should have said forty was quite enough for that ship, and I was obliged to have forty- nine. 3899. If you had had double the quantity of iron, and double the quan- tity of flint, do you think you could have sold them readily at equal profit? — I could ; they were anxious to have more, and would have bought more if I had had it. 3900. Is it your opinion that the trade in flint and in iron could be mate- rially extended ? — There was a demand at that time for those articles. 3901. Are you able to state whether the port-charges at Canton fall more severely upon a small ship than upon a large one ? — The smaller the ship is the less they are. The ship that I know the charges of was 651 tons, and she was considered a first-class ship. I do not know what a second-class ship would have had to pay, but there would have been a considerable difference. 3902. Do you know how many classes of ships the Chinese make in charsins the measurement ? — I believe there are three classes. 3903. Can you state the number of tons forming a first class ? — 1 cannot. 3904. Supposing a ship was to leave England at the proper season of the year, what time do you think would be required to make an average voyage from England to Canton and back? — It could be done very well in nine months. 3905. What time do the Company's ships require to make the same voyage ? —They generally go to India first. The direct ships, I believe, make their voyage in about twelve months out and home ; those that go by India, I think, about fourteen months. 3906. Do not the Company's ships lie very long in the port of Canton? — Some of them, I believe, lie there a considerable time, perhaps three or four months. 3907. Do you consider that they lie, generally speaking, longer than private ships would lie, carrying on the same trade ? — Private ships would leave at all seasons, but the Company's ships are obliged to wait for the change of the monsoon. 3908. Can you give the Committee any account of the average duration of the voyage of a Company's ship and uf a private ship, taking that circum- stance SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 395 stance into consideration? — I cannot; there are few private ships that go 18 March 1830. direct. 3909. You have stated that the voyage you made was a circuitous voyage ? ^"P*-^^- ^- ^^^- — It was. 3910. Was it as circuitous a voyage as the Company's ships make when they go from England to India, and from thence to China ?— It was more so. I went the eastern passage to China, through the Pacific : I was as far as 177 degrees of east longitude. 3911. What would have been your freight direct to Canton for a cargo and back, if you had been chartered out? — I think there were ships which went that same year out and back for xl3. 3912. What length of time were you in making this voyage ? — I was about sixteen months on the voyage. 3913. If you had made a voyage direct to Canton might you have com- pleted it in nine or ten months ? — It could be made in that time. 3914. You have stated that the freight of the Company's ships was from £18 to £24 per ton on the circuitous voyage, do you know what was the freight of the Company's direct ships to Canton ? — They are built expressly for the Company, and taken up at so much per ton. It is optional with the Company either to send them a double voyage or a direct voyage, therefore they get the same for going a direct voyage as they would for going a double voyage. 3915. Were you on board of your ship when the tea came alongside in the Canton river ? — I was. 3916. What quantity did the boats bring down at a time? — About 7OO or 800 chests at one time. 3917. Were you able to take them all in on one day? — I was able to take in three chops in one day. 39 18. Were you able, in a ship of that size, to stow all that was sent down to you in each day within the twenty-four hours ? — Yes ; I stowed three chops one day, but two on an average. 3919. That being 1,400 or 1,500 chests ?— About that. 3920. Were you able to stow them finally as you took them in ? — We were. 3921. And you found no inconvenience in having that quantity brought alongside in one day? — Not the slightest. 3922. Do you consider that the Company's large ships have any ad- vantage over a 500 or 600-ton ship, in being able to stow tliem faster than you can ? — They would certainly be able to stow more in a day than we could do. 3923. If the quantity was limited to 600 or 800 chests per day, do you think they then would have any advantage over you? — No, I do not, 3D 2 3924. Are 396 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 18 March 1830. 3924. Are you now commanding a vessel ? — I am in the command of the Lady Macnaghten. '' ■ ■ ■ '^'' ' 3925. For how much would you tender your ship to go to Canton direct, choosing your own time of sailing, to bring home a cargo of tea, and reckoning a ton of tea at fifty cubical feet ? — The Lady Macnaghten does not belong to myself; but I am building a ship, which will be ready next year, and I should be very glad to get the ship engaged by the East-India Company to go to China annually, at £9 per ton, out and home, calculating the tonnage at fifty cubical feet. 392G. What sized ship will your ship be ? — About 6OO tons. 3927. Do you contemplate making the payment of the cumshaw and the measurement, and those other duties which you stated to have been paid on the Lady East ? — Not in the £9. 3928. Do you contemplate to pay the pilotage, and port-charges of that nature ? — I do in the £9. 3929. Then you would leave the cumshaw and the measurement-duty as an additional charge to the freighter, and not to the owner ? — No. 3930. By whom would the commission be paid ? — By the person who pays the cumshaw and measurement: that would be a charge on the ship. 3931. What is your idea of the comparative advantages of a large and a small ship entering Canton river, as to the facilities of going up and down ? — A small ship is the handiest, certainly, and easier to get up than larger ships. 3932. Were any of the Company's larger ships at Whampoa, when you were there ? — There were two or three. 3933. Did they take in all their cargo at Whampoa, or did they go below the second bar ? — To complete their cargo they were obliged to go down below the second bar. 39341. Did you complete your cargo at Whampoa ? — We did. 393.5. Do you consider it some advantage to be able to complete your cargo at one place? — I do, because there is not the risk of the chops, which are not very fine boats ; and I consider that by their going down below the second bar there is great risk. 393G. With whom would the loss lie if a chop containing tea for a ship was lost on the way to the ship ? — That is a point on which I am not prepared to speak. 3937. Did any instance of loss take place while you were there ? — Not any, to my knowledge. 3938. What is the distance from Canton to Whampoa? — About ten miles. 3939. What is the distance from Whampoa to the place below the second bar, SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 397 bar, where the large ships take in their cargo ? — I do not know exactly the 18 Marcli 1830. number of miles, but I think it is about seventeen or eighteen. 3940. You have stated that you would be glad to engage your ship to the ^"'''" ^^' ^ ''"'"' Company, to go to Canton and back, at the rate of £9 per ton of fifty cubic feet ; what is the size of the ton for which you say the Company were paying £18 to £24? — The Company pay for a ton of seventy-two cubical feet; but I should be happy to engage at £9 a ton of fifty cubic feet. The Com- pany pay at so many cwt. to the ton : from eight to ten is the weight ; and the tea, when packed in chests, is seventy-two cubic feet to the ton. 3941. What would be the tonnage at which you would engage your new- ship, if the terms were exactly the same as the East-India Company's? — I could fit a ship of 600 tons the same as the Company's ships are fitted, and sail that ship direct to Canton and back, for £13 a ton; and for £2 a ton more I could pay the port-dues. 3942. What were the Company paying ? — The Company were paying from £18 to £24 per ton. 3943. Do you consider it necessary to have the same quantity of stores and crew on board your own ship as the Company have by their regulations ? — I do not. I think they are over-manned ; that is, that many of the men may be dispensed with. 3944. If instead of fitting the ship as the Company prescribe, you were only to give the ship that description of fitting which you consider necessary for her safe voyage from England to Canton and back, at what rate per ton could you do it? — For £13 a ton on the register tonnage. 3945. Supposing your ship to be 6OO tons register measurement, you would be able to bring home 6OO tons of tea, each ton being seventy-two cubical feet? — About that quantity. 3946. Did you state that, in the season in which you performed your voyage, there were other ships freighted by the Company out and home, for £13 a ton? — There were. 3947. How do you account for the difference between the freight at wliich you could afford to send your ship to Canton and back, and the freight which the Company pay? — The only difference is, that the owners of the Company's ships derive a greater profit from their voyages than we should be content with. 3948. Do not the Company freight their ships by tender? — They do. 3949. How do you account for the circumstance, that in taking the lowest tender they still freight their ships at a much higher freight than you say you could afford to freight a ship to Canton and back, with the same fitting up ? — It is only of late years that the Company have chartered small ships ; they have always imported their teas in large ships, and those ships were contracted for before they were built, and built expressly to perform six voyages, at a certain rate per ton. 3950. Then 398 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 18 Marcli 1830. 3950. Then you mean, that it is a more expensive process to contract by tender in that way for a ship for six years, than it would be to engage a ship apt. tv. L.Pope, yp^,^ tender for a specific voyage ? — It is more expensive to the Company. 3951. You have said that you would tender a ship to go to China, and bring home a cargo of tea, complying with the usual terms and conditions required by the India Company, at £13 per ton? — Upon the registered tonnage. 3952. Upon those terms, do you understand that you are to have all the stores, the number of men, and every other condition required by the Com- pany complied with ? — I do ; but the Company paying the cumshaw and measurement, which I estimate at about £2 a ton. 3953. Supposing you were at perfect liberty to proceed to Canton, freighted by a private individual, the only condition being to have the ship sea-worthy, with all necessary stores, but to make tiie best of your voyage there and back, and carrying no more stores, nor coming under any other condition, further than you thought necessary for the safety of the ship ; at what rate per ton wc-uld you charter a vessel on the registered tonnage? — At £13 a ton. If the ship was chartered by a private individual at £13 a ton, I could pay the cumshaw and measurement, whicli would be about £11 on the registered ton. 3954<. Is that the only difference between freighting for the Company and freighting for an individual, and being at liberty to make the voyage as you pleased ?— The Company's regulations are more expensive as to fitting, but I am not prepared to say quite exactly to what amount. 3955. If you could supply shipping to the Company at £13 a ton, how do you account for so much higher freight being paid, competition beii.g already had recourse to ? — I cannot account for it in any other way, than that tiie ships were taken up at that rate of freight when materials for fitting ships were more expensive than they are now. 3956. Then you would attribute the shipping at the present rate of freight to the term not having yet expired for which they were originally engaged ? — Yes. 3957. If that term had expired, do you assume that the Company could supply themselves with shipping much clieaper in the time to come ? — Much cheaper ; but the larger ships would still be more expensive to the Company than the smaller ones. 3958. You were engaged in this voyage in the year 182G-7; are you aware what difference there was in the outfit of a ship and tiie provisions of a ship between 182G-7 and 1829-30? — I am not; everything is certainly much cheaper tiian it was at that time, but I cannot say in what proportion. 3959. You have stated that the Company, while you were in China, were paying at tiie rate of from £18 to £21' a ton ; are you aware of the nature of the voyages those ships are liable to ? — I am not, any further than that they proceed SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 399 proceed to India ; some to Saint Helena, some to Bombay and China, others 18 Maidi 1830. to Bengal and China, others to Madras and China. 3960. Are you aware that they are liable to be employed at the call of "^' ' ' ^^"' the Court of Directors for any purpose, political as well as commercial ? — I am. 3961. Are you not aware that there must be a great difference between those ships which are liable to be used for political purposes, as transports and men-of-war, and ships going direct to China ? — There must be a great difference certainly ; but not equal to the difference between £13 and £18. 3962. Have you not stated, that ships engaged at the rate of from £18 to £24 were ships upon old contracts, seven, eight, and ten years old? — Yes. 3963. Do you apprehend there is any difference between the prices of this day and the prices of ten years back? — Things certainly are cheaper now than they were at that time. 3964. Do you apprehend that if all the ships required to bring home the annual supply of tea for this country were to be advertised for in this market, that would not have a great effect in raising the price of freight, which you now say you could supply at £13 a ton ? — I think it would be a means of employing a great number of ships that now cannot find employment. Perhaps it would affect the freight a little, but not much ; there are so many ships that the competition would be very great. 3965. Are you aware that the owners, for the freight of £18 and £24, are obliged to carry twenty guns, and six thirty-two pound carronades .? — Yes. 3966. Do you consider that necessary in fitting out a ship to go to Canton for a China cargo ? — I do not. 3967. Then you would save all the expenses connected with that supply ? — I would. I should consider six guns quite sufficient for a ship of 600 tons. 3968. How many cables would you consider it necessary to take in a ship going out direct to Canton ? — I should have three cables, two bowers and a stream. 3969. If the Company require seven cables, would not that be also an additional expense to be deducted in any tender you would make.' — It would be attended with additional expense of course. 3970. How long have you commanded a ship? — I have commanded a ship since 1823. 3971. Do you know what the freight was in 1820 ? — I do not. 3972. In estimating the freight you have spoken of, how many days' delay in the port would you calculate upon as occurring at Canton .' — I should calculate on thirty days. 3973. Would 400 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 18 March 1830. 3973. Would thirty lay-days commonly be sufficient for the purpose ? — Quite sufficient. Capt. n. L.Pope. 39-7 4,_ And do you not conceive that, under those circumstances, demurrage would commonly be charged ? — I think not. 3975. Do you know that, at the present moment, demurrage is charged upon the Company's ships? — I am aware that there is a demurrage at times. 3976. Do you conceive that demurrage would be charged, provided the ship were freighted by private individuals, commonly speaking? — A great deal depends upon the nature of the engagement. 3977- Do you know how many lay-days the Company calculate upon at Canton ? — I do not recollect the number of lay-days. I only know that I had no demurrage. Mr. JOHN SIMPSON called in, and examined. Mr. John Simpson. 3978. You are an insurance broker in London ? — I am. 3979. Have you any partner ? — The firm is Stuart and Simpson. 3980. Are you in the habit of doing insurances to the East-Indies and China ? — Occasionally to the East-Indies, not often to China. 3981. Are you aware of the rate of premium both to the East-Indies and China ? — I am. 3982. Can you state the rate of premium on a first-class British ship from hence to Canton ? — 505. out upon the ship. 3983. What would be the rate upon goods, upon manufactures, for in- stance ? — About the same. Something might depend upon the nature of the goods ; if they were liable to damage, it would be something more. 3984. What would it be from Canton back to England? — The same. 3985. What would it be from London to Canton, and back to England ? — Five pounds. 3986. Would it be the same from other parts of the United Kingdom ? — Yes, about the same, or rather less. 3987. Are those the current rates at which you have known insurance done? — There is not a great deal done to China in Lloyd's; but tliose are the rates upon what is done, when it is done through insurance brokers, and it is the rate upon other vessels that go to Sincaporc, Batavia, and the neigh- bouring ports there ; and I am aware that the underwriters would as lief go to Canton at once and back again, as to those ports I have mentioned. 398S. Have you ever effected any insurances on goods by the Company's ships? — It is some time since I have done any thing of that sort; it is done by respondentia frequently upon the voyage out and home, which I have done. 3989. Which SELECT COMMI ITEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 401 3.989. Which do you consitler has the advantage in insurance generally ; IS Miucli 1830. on which is the premium lowest, on a Company's ship or a private trader? — ~7 I do not think there would be any difference whatever. MrJolmSanpsm. 3<)90. Have you ever done any insurances on goods by American ships to East-India or to China? — I never have. 3991. Have you any means of knowing what would be the rate of insu- rance demanded at Lloyd's upon American ships? — It would depend upon the nature of the goods, and the description given of the ship. The Ame- rican ships are not generally comprised in our registers, but if the description were good, the premium would be the same. 3992. Is there any difference made at Lloyds between the insurance of a ship of a large tonnage of l,'20O tons, and the insurance of a siiip of 400 tons ? — I do not tliink there is any difference ; some would prefer tiie large one, and some the small. I have heard the large ones objected to, on account of the great number of men on board, and the accidents happening in con- sequence. 3993. You conceive it would be as well, or perhaps better done upon a ship of 400 or 500 tons as upon a ship of 1,200 tons ? — I think it would be quite as well. 3994. Would the underwriters make any difference ? — I do not think they would. 3995. Is there any objection made to the Company's ships on account of the particular regulations to which they arc subjected, that they are obliged to be at the disposal of the Company, whatever may be their voyage, in case of their requiring it ? — Insurances done by them are done subject to the regulations of the Company, but I am not aware that the premium is any higher in consequence. 3996. Is not the insurance upon a Company's ship out and home to China, £4. 10s. ? — I never heard of such a premium ; I have seen £6. 3997- Do you insure against fire-risk as well as sea-risk ? — Certainly ; what I have mentioned includes all risks. 3998. How long has your firm been established in London? — I have been thirty years in it ; twenty-four a partner. 3999. And you have been the greater part of that time engaged in the in- surance of ships to India and China? — Yes, • 3400ff. Have you been in the habit of insuring ships from Liverpool to India r — Yes. 3401a. Has the premium been the same as upon the English ships? — The premium to India and back has varied in comparison to the goodness of the vessel. Upon class No. 1, I have done them from Liverpool to Calcutta and back at £4. 3 E 3402 a. Are iO^ EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 18 March 1830. 34-0'irt. Are there not a greater number of ships of class No. 1. insured at four per cent, than at five, from Liverpool ? — There are. 31r. John Simpson. ^ ^ ..j, , „ . , • ., t i i i 3403fl. What are the crews or those ships? — It depends on the tonnage. 3404^ Are not the Company's ships to China held to be one of the best risks that the underwriters have an opportunity of insuring ?■— Yes, they are. THIRD REPORT tROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS ON THE AFFAIRS OF THE EAST-INDIA COMPANY: 1830. LIST OF WITNESSES. A « ' Lunee, 22° die Martii 1830. Thomas Thornely, Esq. - - -- - - - -P' 4't)4 Robert Richards, Esq. - 406 Martis, 23° die Martii 1830. Henry nUliam Masterson, Esq. - " ■ U^^^juMk. I.^'^y . . 430 Jovis,^25° die Martii 1830. John Crawfurd, Esq. ^'^^-'^^^^ ^V^J^'^f^^ 446 Lunse, 29' die Martii 1830. Robert Richards, Esq. 47ii John Cra'-dfurd, Esq. 489 John Stewart, Esq. 490 Martis, 30° die Martii 1830. Charles Poulett Thomson, Esq. 500 Joshua Bates, Esq. - 501 Thomas Gore Lloyd, Esq. - - - - - - -- 506 Jovis, 1° die Aprilis 1830. Abraham Borradaile, Esq. .._.-.- 512 Mr. Alexander M'Donald and Mr. Daniel Dixon - - - 519 Thomas Gore Lloyd, Esq 5^5 THIRD REPORT. THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the present State of the Affairs of the East-India Compant, and into the Trade between Great Brilain, the East-Indies, and China ; and to report their Observations thereupon to the House ; and who were empowered to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time, to the House : — HAVE made a further Progress in the matters to them referred, and examined several Witnesses ; the Minutes of whose Evi- dence they have agreed to report to the House up to the 1st day of this instant April, inclusive. \st April 1830. SF MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. LuncB, 22° die Mar Hi, 1830. William Ward, Esq. in the Chair. THOMAS THORNELY, Esq. called iti and examined. 22 March 1830. 3405ff. You are a merchant at Liverpool ? — I am. T. Thnrnely, Esq 3406a. Have you made it your business to inquire into the means of drawing bills from China upon houses of good credit in England ? — I have the authority of a gentleman of great respectability, a merchant, who has lived in Canton for many years, to say, that bills upon London on confirmed credits may be negotiated there with great facility, and to almost any e-xtent. .3407«. At what rate of exchange? — Equal to 55. Gd. and two-thirds of a penny the tale, and payable at six months' sight. '3408(7. Who is the merchant from whom you received that information? — The gentleman who gave me this information is an American ; he gave it to me as a matter of personal kindness, and I would rather not mention his name. 3409i2. Is he a person that has resided long at Canton ? — He has resided at Canton twenty-five years. 3410a. Did he carry on extensive business ? — Very extensive business. ;J411fl. Do you happen to know whether the American merchant, to whom you refer, drew bills upon London ? — I do not think it was so stated to me. 34120'. Have you any communication in writing from this gentleman, stating this fact, and the course of exchange ? — 1 have such a communi- cation. .34i:5r/. Have you any objection to give in that communication to the Conunittee, with the understanding that the name of the writer shall not be made public? — I have no objection. * ^ [The SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 405 [The mtiiess delivered in the same, 'which was read, as follows ;] 22 March 1830 '' The Chinese have no coin except carx or cash, which are a brass coin, 1,000 of , ^ . ., which make a tale. Their accounts are kept in tales, mace, candareens, and cash. ' • 'ionii'li/,J'^s<^. 10 cash 1 candareen. 10 candareens 1 mace. 10 mace 1 tale. 7'2 candareens make a Spanish dollar, and the exchange between China and England is, and will probably continue to be, 4*. per dollar. " cf'lOO sterling would consequently be 360 tales, or 500 Spanish dollars. A tale ris. 6if/. " My dear Sir : ": Above, you have a memorandum of the imaginary coin of the Chinese; they have no real coin except the cash as above-mentioned. You will perceive that the value of the tale is 5*. 6|ci. as near as may be, at the usual rate of exchange between China and England. " I am, my dear Sir, your very obedient, " To T. Thornely, Esq. " March 16, 1830." 3414«. Do you know at what course of exchange the tale is estimated by the East-India Company ? — At 6s. Sd. I understand. 341 5fl. Supposing the exchange to be really 55. 6d. and two-thirds, com- paring that with the course at which it is estimated by the Company in prime cost for their teas, what would be the difference upon the purchases of the last ten years : — The difference would be precisely one-sixth. You must de- duct from the public accounts of the Company, to bring it to the current ex- change, one-sixth of the amount of purchases of tea I have mentioned. 341 6a. Have you made any calculation of what the amount of that de- duction would be? — That deduction would be £3,039,351. 3417fir. From what document do you take the quantity of tea sold by the Company for the last ten years ? — From the Parliamentary returns. 341Sa. From what document did you take the prime cost of tiie tea ? — From the Parliamentary returns, the whole of it. 3419fl!. Have you prepared a statement, founded upon the information pro- cured from the Parliamentary returns, and the estimated rate of exchange by the Company ? — I have ; and I believe it to be as nearly correct as it can be. 3420«. Have the goodness to deliver in that document. [T//e witness delivered in the same, which was read, as Jblloxvs .-] 3 F2 A 406 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 22 Marcli 1830 ^ STATEMENT, intended to show the Loss to the Country in the Piice of Tea arising out of the East-India Company's Monopoly. T.T/t oru ely , Esq- " The quantities imported and sold for consumption, tog^ether wiih the prime cost and sale amount, are extracted from documents presented by the Company to Parlia- ment. Tea exported from Canton from 1818-19 to 1827-8, 285,095,127 lbs. cost .^18,236,106 Deduct one-sixth, because the tale of China is estimated at 6*. 8(/. by the Company, whereas it is only 5*. 6^d 3,039,351 Total i'ir),iyo,7:)5 Average cost price, I2d. SO per lb. Sales of tea in England from 1819-20 to 1828-9, 265,456,040 lbs., amount £35,462,245. Average sale price, 32d. '06 per lb. Freight from Canton to England, taken at , making yourself acquainted with the trade between England and Jndia and China? — Generally speaking, I have. I never was engaged in trade whilst in India, being in the Company's civil service; but 1 had opportuni- ties of seeing a good deal of what passed in the trade between India and China, and I have had correspondence with China since I have been in this country. 3424a. Have you had any commercial transactions with China since you have been in England ? — The house that I belong to corresponds with a house in China, and we have received, as agents, consignments from that house, and carried on a regular correspondence with them. 3425r/. What is the name of the house - — The name of our house is Rick- V'/v ards. Mackintosh, & Company. The house we correspond with in China is Thom.as Dent & Company. 3426f/. Have you not, since 1812, paid particular attention to the financial details of the commerce with India, as published by Parliament? — I have always felt a great interest in respect to the financial concerns of India ; and when I was in Parliament in the year 1812-13, I had an opportunity, then, for the first time, of analyzing the East-India Company's accounts which were laid before Parliament; and from those accounts I derived a knowledge of the state of their finances, which I could not obtain from the limited view I had of their accounts all the time I was in India. 3427a. Do you include the trade witli India in that attention which you paid to their financial details? — I do, with India and China. 3428fl'. What opinion generally have you formed of the result of the tea trade carried on by the Company with China? — I formed a decided opinion in the year 1813, that the received notion at that time, of the profits of the ; Company's China trade being their only means of paying their dividends and J interest upon their home bond debt, was altogether erroneous. I was then firmly convinced, and I gave my reasons for the conviction, that on a fair mercantile statement of their commercial operations, the profits, if any, would be found altogether insuflScient to pay their dividends in this country; and from the papers which have been printed and laid before the public since that period, I am still further confirmed in that belief. 3429a. Do you include the trade to China, as well as the trade to India, in that opinion ? — I include in this opinion the trade to China more particu- larly, because it is now pretty generally asserted and believed to be the only source of commercial profit. 3430a. Are the Committee to understand that iu the number of years which 408 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 22 March 1830. which have elapsed since 1812, all the documents that have come to your knowledge have confirmed your opinion, that the trade to China has Robert Ihckards, jj^j. jjgen the means of paying the dividends, as is generally supposed : — ■*^' Certainly. 3431«. Are you able to state to the Committee the grounds on which your opinion was then formed, and on which you now continue to hold it ? — For the opinion I then formed, I must beg leave to refer to a publication of mine in the year 1813, in which I have stated that opinion at full length, together with the grounds of it. Having subsequently had an opportunity of inspecting the printed accounts which have been laid before Parliament for the years 1820 and 1821, I framed from that collection a statement, which I intended for the continuation of a publication I am now engaged in about India, and which statement I have now before me. It is at the service of the Committee, and will show the grounds of my present belief. 3432a. Is that calculation taken from the documents presented by His Majesty's command, dated February 1830 ? — The whole of it, and every thing I have asserted with regard to India, is taken from official documents; I look upon no other source of information to be worth a farthing. The statement I hold in my hand is taken from the official documents laid before Parliament on the 4th of June 1829, and the 14th of May 1824, as well as from the collection of documents presented by His ]\lajesty's command in February 1830. 3433a. Will you state to the Committee the result arising from that state- ment, and the items which enable you to come to that result? — This state- ment is for the year 1820-21. I have taken that year, because it is the latest for which all the charges on the China trade are printed or published ; at least, I have seen no other document containing all these charges subsequent to that year. I believe, however, from an examination of the official tables here referred to, that the result would be pretty nearly the same for either of the preceding or succeeding years ; but I have been obliged to confine myself to 1820-21, because I could find no other official document except that delivered in on the 14th May 1824 : that contains a complete view of all the Company's charges on the China trade. 3434r/. Where does that document appear which was published in 1824 ? — It is before the House of Commons, and is an official document. It is styled, " Accounts relating to the Tea Trade, &c. of the East-India Company," dated the 14th of May 1824; and bears the signature of T. G. Lloyd, the Accountant-General at the India-House. 343,5a. Will you state what appears to be the result in the year 1820-1 ? — [H'ilness delivers in thejhllowing statement, •which is accordinglif read to the Committee] SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 409 Statement, to show the apparent Deficiency of Means to pay Interest on 22 Maich 1830. Bond Debt and Dividends out of the Profits of the China Trade : pre- pared from Official Documents for the year 1820-21. Robert Ru^kards, Prime cost of teas, as per No. 32 of " Papers relative to the Trade with India and China," 4th June 1829 Freight and Demurrage, as per No. 31 of ditto ditto Cliarges in China and England, as per No. 6 of " Accounts re- lating to the Tea Trade, &c. of the East-India Company," 14th may 1824 Interest on home bond-debt, as per No. 21, of "Papers relat- ing to the Finances of India, and Trade of India and China," Feb. 1830 Dividends on stock as per ditto of ditto ditto £. 1,874,840 790,540 018,849* 102,938 032,251 .f 4,085,418 £. Sale amount in 1821-2, as per No. 33, of " Papers, &c," 4th June 1829 3,500,042 Balance or deficiency, after pay- ing interest on bond-debts and dividends, both which are, by the Act 53 Geo. 3, sect. 57, chargeable on " Commercial Profits" 518,770 ,£4,085,418 * The charges included in this sum are stated in the oflfiical account referred to under the following heads, viz. Salaries, emoluments, &c. in 1820-21 £95,053 Expenses in China 54,735 Ditto in England 173,520 Interest l. 230,287 Insurance 58,054 £018,849 N.B. — The deficiency above stated is exclusive of avowed loss on the outward trade to Canton, which the Court of Directors and their advocates have alleged to have been carried on to their own detriment for the benefit of British manufacturers. This loss is stated, in the Lord's Report on Trade, 1820-21, page 118, at £1,008,103 for twenty-six years, averaging therefore £04,157 per annum. It is also exclusive of the loss by fire in Canton, in Nov. 1822, which is otficially stated to be £380,133; and in which it is probable that goods undisposed of, from the season 1820-21, may have been sacrificed. There are other items in the accounts referred to which would be brought into a general statement of the whole period of the existing charter, and which render it probable that the annual loss or deficiency for the whole period would not be less than that above stated. 3436fl. Will 410 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: ■i2 March 1830. 3436<7. Will you explain for what part of the Company's debt this interest entered by you is charged? — It is the whole interest upon tlie bond debt in Robert Rickards, England in the year 1820-21. 34-37a. No part of the bond debt in India ? — No. 3438a. Why do you include the charge for interest of the bond debt in that account of tea? — By the Act of the 53d of the King, it is, as well as the dividends, expressly chargeable on the commercial profits of the East- India Company ; and as the China trade is avowedly the only source of profit to them ; as their other branches of trade, including the export trade to India and China, are avowedly attended with loss, I have put both into this statement, according to the provision of the Act of Parliament. Being chargeable on commercial profit, 1 know not where else to find it. Neither the dividends nor the interest, it is obvious, can be paid out of losses. 3439a. In the charge for freight and demurrage in that account, do you include the charge for the freight and demurrage of that portion of the Com- pany's shipping that went to India direct? — From the official accounts that are published, I cannot tell what is chargeable to the Indian freight and what to the China freight, because they are not so distinguished. I have taken this sum from an official document, entitled, "A statement of the amounts paid in England for freight and demurrage, including cost and outfit of the Com- pany's own ships, from 1st May 1814 to the 30th April 1829." I found this account amongst a collection of others, such as 30, 32, and S3, exclusively relating to the China trade. I thought therefore the safest way was to take the sum as I found it in the official account. If this sum does include the Indian freight, I have no means of separating the one from the other with accuracy. I know that the tonnage of the year 1820-21 was only about 6,000 tons to India ; and that tonnage, taken at the rate of £10, or £11, or £12 a ton, which is the rate the Company paid in that year, would only diminish this sum, even if it should include Indian freight, about £60,000 or £70,000 ; but having no means of stating that on official authority, I thought the best way was to give in this sum, and to explain it. The result, in either case, will still leave a large deficiency. 3440a, Are the Committee to understand, that if, in that sum, the freight properly chargeable for ships to India Proper is included, that will require a deduction to the amount of that tonnage from the amount you debit the tea trade with ? — It may be so ; but I only state that upon estimate. I have no official document to proceed upon with reference to this fact. 3441a. Will you state what amounts appear to have been received by the Company as the produce of their tea sales for that year? — The sale amount in 1821-2, as per No. 32 of the papers which I have before referred to, is £3,560,642. The balance or deficiency then on this account, after paying interest on bond debts and dividends, both of which are by the Act 5S Geo. III., s. 57, chargeable on commercial profits, amounts to £518,77^, as par- ticularized in the statement. S442a. Are SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 411 S442a. Are the Committee to understand that the result of that account 22 March 1830. shows a deficiency to the amount of £518,776 on the proceeds of the trade, to pay the charges on trade, the interest of their bond debt, and ItR'fkards.Esq. dividends in this country ? — Certainly in that year, so far as official docu- ments go. 3'i43a. Are those several items entered as you would enter any other commercial accounts ? — This account was drawn out, as I stated at the com- mencement, to support the opinion which I have long entertained, that there was not a sufficiency of profit on the Company's commercial concerns to pay those two items, the interest on bond debt and dividends on stock. The account may be drawn out in a different form, and I was preparing a different view of the account when I was called in to this Committee. According to that view of the account, if it be balanced after the items of freight and demurrage, it will leave a profit on the China trade of £^76,413, to meet the interest on bond debts and the dividends on stock £'795,189 whilst the actual deficiency is, as before, £518,776. The result is in either case the same. 34i44df. Then that account which you have now given in is only a division of the former account, leaving the interest on the bond debts and the divi- dends on stock separately ? — Yes ; and showing, according to either state- ment, what I have always contended for, that the profits are inadequate to the payment of those two items. 3445a. In comparing the prime cost in the year 1821 with the sale amount in 1821-2, do not you observe that the prime cost is estimated upon a quantity of 28,545,000 lbs. of tea, and that in the sale amount tliere are only 25,493,000 lbs., leaving a difference of about 3,000,000 lbs. of tea ?— I do ; and I adverted to that at the time. With a view of ascertaining what could be the cause of that difference, I cast up the columns of Nos. 32 and 33, and I find that the sum total of difference amounts to nothing more than what a private merchant would consider as a fair allowance for wastage and loss of weight upon consignments of tliis description, viz. five per cent. It is probable, tiierefore, the difference may be occasioned by wastage, for the sums-total of these columns will, witli this allowance, be found nearly to correspond ; or it may be one year's consumption of tea, which the Court of Directors are always required to have on hand by Act of Parliament, the total difference of the two columns being only 29,329,859 lbs. 3446 I. In stating the profit of any one particular year, ought not you to take that deduction into account ? — Certainly not ; because the differences I have adverted to will go on from year to year throughout the whole period of the two statements; and in as fiar as these quantities (exclusive of wastage) may be found to consist of stock on hand, they are carried to a separate account. 3447^- Do you consider the allowance you have made more than the 3 G average 412 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: ' 22 March 1830. average wastage which would be allowed by merchants trading in the article ? — I consider it a fair allowance. H. likhards, Esq. 3448«. Do you think that 3,000,000 is a fair proportion of wastage? — No ; I have taken five per cent, as the proportion of wastage for tlie tcJtole period. Either that, or the amount of one year's consumption, which the Company are obliged to have always in hand in their warehouses, will make the two columns nearly to correspond. 3449rt. In stating the profit and loss of particular years, ought not you to take that into the account ? — I should close my account as a merchant with the monies received and expended, that is, with the transactions of the year ; I believe every merchant would do the same. I would beg it to be understood, that I do not give in this statement as a perfectly accurate one, because the official documents do not admit of it; I only give it in as a confirmation of that opinion which I have uniformly held, that there is not a sufficiency of commercial profit in the Company's concerns to pay those two heads of charge, and I think that this statement, whatever adjustments may be required with regard to certain items in it, clearly proves the fact. 3450«. As you have added up the columns for a number of years, have you also taken an average of the amount of profit or loss in those years ? — No, there are no means of doing it from official documents ; and, as I have said before, 1 would not trust to any thing but official documents. 3451a. Then that account is made up by you in the best manner you can, from such public documents as are before the House of Commons? — It is. 3452a. Have you made any inquiry as to the prices of tea at Canton, and the prices at which the tea has been sold here ? — I have. I am in the habit of receiving information on that head in our correspondence witli China, and from the regular price-currents which are transmitted to us. 3453a. Have you prepared any estimate or comparative table of those prices for any one or two years ? — I have prepared a statement, for the same purpose for which, as before-mentioned, I had prepared the other statement, namely, for publication, to show what the same quantity of teas purchased in China at the Chinese prices would amount to, and the prices for which they can be imported into this country by an individual merchant, who would charge himself with all the ordinary charges upon consignments of this description ; and this is compared with the prices which have been charged on the Company's teas for the same period. 3454a. Will you have the goodness to read that statement, and show what result you come to by that mode of calculation ? — [The witness delivered in the following Statement, which was read as follows :] Statement SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 413 Statement of the probable Cost at Canton of the different qualities of Tea necessary to be imported for the supply of the United Kingdom for one year, in tlic pro- portion, both as to (pialities and (piantitics, of the Teas imported in the year 18258rt. Are you in the habit of receiving regular price-currents from Canton ? — Yes, regularly. I could also state, as a further confirmation of the fact, that some of the private tea trade of the last year passed through my own hands, and I know that it was to the full as good as the Company's. 3459o. From what documents have you taken your estimate of the average sale of the Company's teas ? — From No. 42, p. 124, of the " Papers relating to the Trade of India and China," February 1830. 3460a. Are the Committee to understand, as the result of the statement which has now been read, that if the tea imported by the East-India Com- pany in the last year had been imported by private merchants, allowing a freight of £10 per ton and 18 per cent, profit, the country would have been supplied with the same quantity of tea, and of the same quality, at a less sum by £2,588,499 than what they have paid to the Company ? — I have not the least doubt of it. 346la. Do you consider that that would have been without any loss to the revenue, or paying the same amount of revenue to the Government ? — Certainly not. 3462a. Is your statement of the average price on which you have founded the calculation of tea, with regard to the duty, taken from the documents which you have mentioned? — It is founded upon the average price of tea for fifteen years, as stated in the before-mentioned document. No. 42. 3463a. Are the Committee to understand, that if that trade, which has been carried on by the Company for fifteen years, and assuming the average price given by them, had been carried on by private individuals, that the public 416 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS; 22 March 1830. public would have paid less during each of those years to the amount of * £4,000,000, which you have stated? — Provided 30,000,000 pounds of tea It.Rickards, Esq. were sold in eacli year. 3464<2. Has not half of that sum which you state to have been paid by the public more than under your calculation would have been paid if the trade had been carried on by private individuals, consisted of duty to the Government ?— Certainly ; one half of it, or nearly so. 3465a. Are the Committee to understand, that you have made in that account all the usual commercial charges for freight, warehousing, brokerage, wastage, and that after those allowances the merchant would have received his 18 per cent, profit clear? — I have. 3466a. In that calculation which you have made, you have estimated the greatly reduced sale-price of the tea, occasioning thereby a great loss in the amount of revenue, the duty on tea being an ad valorem duty ; have you considered how that loss of revenue which would, on that calculation, take place if the trade was opened, could be supplied to the government ? — That circumstance struck me immediately upon preparing the former statement ; and as I thought it would be desirable that the revenue should, at all events, be provided for, I prepared another statement, to show how I think, at least, that object might be effected. I have that statement here, which I had in- tended also for publication, and which I will deliver in. [The witness delivered in the same, ivhich was read as Jbllows .-] A Statement, exhibiting the amount of Duty which would be levied on the Teas as sold by the East-India Company, 1828-9, if the scale of American duties, given in page 49 of the papers ordered to be printed by the House of Commons 4th June 1829, were adopted ; showing also what would be the amount, if the importation reached to one-third more than the present supply. Imported 1828-1829. American Duty per lb. sterling Amount. Supposed Impor- tation of One-third additional. American Duty. Sterling Amount. Bohea lb. 3,778,012 20,142,873 284,197 001,739 131,281 4,101, 84r> 213,993 1,014,923 645 s. d. 6 12^ 1 2 1 8 2 1 £ £. 94,450 1,049,107 14,801 31,340 6,837 239,274 12,482 84,.576 67 lb. 5,037,000 I 28,213,000 I 5,754,000 1,353,000 862 s. d. 6 12^ 1 2 1 8 2 1 £ £. 125,925 Con^'^ou. Campoi Souchong Pekoe 1,469,427 Twankay Hyson Skin ... Hyson 335,650 112,750 Gunpowder ... 90 30/269,508 1,532,934 40,357,862 2,043,842 By SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 41? By these calculations it would appear that the present importation of tea of 30,000,000 pounds and upwards would only produce a duty, at the American rate, of ,i^l,53'2,934, while the existing- ad valorem duty may be calculated to produce ,£'3,515,000. If it is estimated that an increase of importation to the amomit of one- third, in addition to the present quantity (40,357,000 pounds) be taken at the American duty, it amounts to only 1'2,043,000, a sum still very short of the duty now produced. It may however be presumed, that the consumption would be in- creased one-third ; and it may be desirable that nearly the same amount of revenue may be secured as is now produced. In order to effect this, it will be more simple to fix a rated duty than to fix an ad valorem one. Indeed difficulties will occur at the out-ports in levyin<^ the latter, while by the adoption of a rated duty there could be no difficulty in the matter. The rates at wliich these duties may be fixed are as follows : 22 March 1830 R. Richards, l>q. Bohea Congo Campoi Souchong and all other black Tea, except Pekoe Twankay Hyson Skin Young Hyson Hyson Gunpowder Pekoe Rated Duty. s. d. 1 — per lb. 1 9 — 1 9 2 8 — The Duty payable on tlie Teas sold at the Company's Sale, 1828-9. 5. d. 1 6;^ per lb. 2 3| — 2 9 — 2 lOi — 2 5i — 2 3| — none. 4 6 6i 3 9i la Annexed are the Calculations showing the Amount of Duty at the above Rates, on a presumed importation of about 40,000,000 lbs. Importation 1828-9. With One-third additional. Bohea Congo Campoi .... Souchong . Twankay . Hyson Skin Hyson .... Gunpowder Pekoe lbs. 3,778,012 20,142,873 284,197 601,739 4,101,845 213,993 1,014,923 645 131,281 30,269,508 lbs. 5,037,000 [ 28,038,000 } 5,754,000 > 1,528,000 40,357,000 Rated Duty. *. d. 1 per lb. 1 9 — 1 9 — 2 8 — Amount of Duty. £. 251,850 2,453,325 503,475 237,080 ^^3,445,730 With 418 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 22 March 1830. With duties fixed at the above rates, an addition of 10,000,000 pounds of tea may be added to the consumption of the country, at a cost of £6,472,000 for the entire R. Richards, Esq. supply of 40,000,000 of pounds, duty paid. The cost to the country of 30,26'J,000 pounds of tea in 182S-9 was £7,043,000; but were it not for the difficulties which are likely to be created at the out-ports in continuing an ad valorem duty, the 40,000,000 pounds of tea, which would probably be imported, would yield about .£'3,000,000 in revenue, without any alteration in the present ad valorem duties, not- withstanding- the greatest proportion of the teas would sell under 2*. per pound, and be therefore subject to only 96 per cent. This is a case without the bounds of proba- bility, as in the event of the out-ports participating in the trade to China, a rated duty on tea must necessarily be substituted for an ad valore?n one. In making this calculation, I have assumed that there will be an increase in the importation to the amount of at least one-third additional, if the price is reduced ; for tea is now become almost a necessary of life, and therefore I have thought it safe to take the import and sale at forty millions of pounds, instead of thirty. 3467a. Are the Committee to understand the result of that statement to be this, that if the quantity of tea required for the consumption of England were imported by private merchants at the rates at which you conceive they can do it, the community would receive 40,000,000 of pounds of tea for £6,000,000 sterling, instead of paying £7,000,000, which they now do, for 30,000,000 of pounds of tea, the Government receiving at the same time the same amount of duty as they did before ? — Certainly, with the trifling difier- ence between the amount of duty stated in this table and the present esti- mated amount of Government duty. The difference is only £70,183. 3468(7. Are those calculations founded upon the supposition that there will be no increase of price in Canton of the teas, although there will be an increase, to the amount of one-third, in the consumption ? — They are founded upon the prices which I have here taken, averaging Is. 6d. per pound. 3469rtr. What grounds have you for supposing that 40,000,000 lbs. of tea can be purchased in Canton at the same rate of price for which we now pur- chase 30,000,000 lbs. ? — If there was a sudden demand for an increased quantity of tea, no doubt the price of tea, like the price of every other article under similar circumstances, would be raised for a time, but only for a time. Ihe Chinese have the means of producing much larger quantities of tea if there was an effectual demand for it, and in proportion as they produced larger quantities the price would again fall. 3470«. Then you conceive that if the increase in the demand to the amount of 10,000,000 of pounds were a progressive increase, that additional quan- tity might be furnished without any advance in price ? — Without any mate- rial advance. 34710. Do you not consider that that increase in quantity would chiefly be in the lower-priced teas of China ? — Certainly in the congo and bohea. 3472a. Are those the kinds in general use in China? — All the higher classes SELECT COMMITTEE ok the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 419 classes in China who use tea, drink the finest tea, and therefore the demand 22 Marcli 18:50. for tiie finer sorts being of limited extent as well in China as in this country, it is probable the increase would take place in the lower qualities. U.R iku.ds.l.sq. 3iT'ia. Do not the lower classes usually drink tea in China? — Yes; and their consumption, as far as it goes, would of course be in the lower descrip- tions of tea. 3Vl4>a. Therefore you suppose the additional demand of 10,000,000 lbs. out of the whole consumption of China, would not, in a few years, occasion any great difference in price ? — If the demand went on gradually increasing, r should think that it would not occasion any considerable increase of price ; but even if it did occasion an increase of price at first, I conceive that as the supply would in the course of a very short time meet the demand, the price would again fall to its natural level. 3-t7'5«. You have made a statement respecting the revenue to Govern- ment on the supposition that 40,000,000 of pounds would be consumed, have you made any calculation how the revenue would be paid, supposing there were no increase beyond the present amount of consumption of 30,000,000 lbs. ? — You might do it by collecting the present rates of duty as a rated duty. 3476ff. Do you consider that the same amount of revenue might be col- lected as a rated duty, which is stated in No. 41 to be the present amount of duty ? — I have never made any calculation of it ; but from a superficial view of this account, I should say certainly. Taking the sale prices of that ac- count, or 100 per cent, on the sale prices, as a rated duty upon the different descriptions of tea mentioned therein, you would, of course, realize the same amount of revenue, or £3,527,059. 3i77fl. Are you aware of the quantity of tea which has been exported from Canton during the last four or five years, in each year, by the English and Americans together? — I have no actual account of it, but it is stated in these official tables. The statement. No. 27, contains an account of the exports from Canton by the Americans intended for European consumption ; and the account No. 25, contains the amount of their exports for American consumption. These two statements, added to the amount of the Company's exports of tea, would show the actual amount exported. 3478fl. Have you made any computation of the average price per pound which the Company pays for their tea at Canton upon the whole quantity ? I have no statement to show it, neither have I seen any official document from which I could accurately frame it. I think the information can only be supplied with strict accuracy tiom the India-House. S179ff. Do you happen to know whether the prices quoted in the Canton price-currents are regulated by the prices given by the East-India Company for their tea, they being, of course, the principal purchasers in that market ? — Being the principal purchasers in the market, their purchases will of 3 H course, 420 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 22 March 1830. course, very materially influence the prices at which the tea is procuietl ; ~ , but there are other purchasers in the market, the Americans and the Indian *"' '■"^- merchants, and their demand for tea will, of course, have its effect in influ- encing the price : but I should consider the Companv's demand for tea to have the chief influence upon the actual price of the tea quoted in the price- currents. 348()a. Then you consider it a fair datum to consider the cost of the East- India Company's teas to be the prices stated in the Canton price-currents ? — Certainly, I do. SiSlfl. Are you aware whether the Company's contract prices for tea are those stated in the price-currents ? — I think that information can only be pro- cured, with the accuracy to be depended upon, from the records of the India-House itself. 3482ff. From your intercourse with persons carrying on the China trade, are you aware of any peculiar difficulties in the way of merchants trading ' with China? — Private merchants of this country are shut out of China alto- gether. The merchants from India are allowed to carry on a trade between India and China; but that trade now, and the consequences of that trade, are most materially obstructed by its not being entirely thrown open. The great obstructions experienced in this case by the Indian merchants may be considered a question of national importance. The removal of those obstruc- tions would be attended with immense advantages to this country. 34f83a. By whom are the obstructions interposed ? — By the system ; that is, by the operation of the Chinese monopoly, which is sanctioned by Act of Parliament. 3484a. Do you mean by the East-India Company or by the Chinese ? — I mean to say that obstructions arise out of the system itself. 3485a. Is it the system adopted by the Chinese, or the system as regulated by this country ? — I mean the whole system, and what is commonly called the Chinese monopoly particularly. 34800. In China or in England ? — Altogether, both in India and in China. 3487a. Do you mean arising from the laws of England or the laws of China ? — It arises out of the peculiar manner in which the trade is carried on, and the operation of the system altogether upon the trade. 3488a. Will you explain in what way the system throws difficulties in the way, both as regards tiie Chinese government and the Company's establish- ment? — I have long been of opinion that the Comjiany's trade has been a source of great injury, not only to India, but to this country also ; and like- wise to have involved the Company themselves in all their present difficul- ties and incumbrances. I have no hesitation, indeed, in saying, that 1 con- sider it, from the official accounts which have been printed and published, to be the sole cause of every fraction ol" their debt, both at home and abroad. In SELECT COMMITTEE or the HOUSE OI' COMMONS. 421 In other respects it cannot be disputed, now-a-days, tliat it must be very 22 March 1830. injurious to any country for tlie sovereign to be carrying on trade on liis own account in his own dominions. Such injury is experienced, or at all ^'lUckards,Eiiq. events was experienced, to very considerable extent, during the whole of" the time I was in India. The Company, from having no active circulating capital of their own, are obliged to be supplied with funds for the purchase of their teas in China from their Indian revenue. A large portion of the revenues required for the China trade is taken in kind on the western side of India ; in other words, they take a large quantity of cotton, or used to do so when I was in Bombay, from the districts belonging to themselves, where, as sovereigns of the country, they consider themselves entitled to one half the gross produce of the soil as a land-tax. That one-half, in the cotton- districts, being taken in kind, the ryots or cultivators were compelled to surrender the other half to the Company's agents at a certain price ; but this price was not a price agreed upon at the time of the purchase between the Company's commercial resident and the cultivators. The price was fixed, after the cotton had been embarked on board the Company's ships and sent ofi'to China, by a committee, consisting of the judge of the district, the collector of the district, and the commercial resident, who met for the purpose of settling the price which the ryots were to receive for the remain- ing half of the cotton, and that price they were obliged to take. The price was often below that which they could have got from private merchants. This was formerly the case on the western side of India, and it is probably the system of the present day. Besides which, I have reason to know that whenever the Company go into the market for the purchase of any commo- dity in India not under their immediate control, the knowledge of their being purchasers has the effect of immediately raising the price of the article, and it raises it so materially in the Indian market, as to render it extremely difficult for the merchants in India to make remittances to this country. It often happens, therefore, that they cannot send home goods at the market price of those goods, except at a dead loss ; and their legitimate commercial operations, as regards the intercourse between India and England, are thus materially obstructed, which I take to be entirely owing to the system now prevailing, of the government being traders in their own coimtry. It would be a vast advantage to the Indian merchants if they could be allowed to make their remittances by way of China ; but there they are obstructed also : and there the obstruction is, as it appears to me, of great national importance. If the trade to China were perfectly free, the merchants of India would increase their consignments to China, and from the sale-proceeds of those consign- ments they might be enabled to purchase the bills of the British traders on England at a reasonable rate of exchange, and thereby make remittances upon favourable terms. At present they are precluded from this advantage ; the consequence is, that the returns for their consignments to China are ne- cessarily sent back to India; they go back to India partly in bills granted by the supercargoes in China on the India governments at a low rate of ex- 3 H 2 change, 422 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 22 March 1830. change, and partly in bullion and goods. During the years 18SS-9, the . , exchange from Canton on Calcutta was but 200 rupees for 100 Spanish dol- li. Richards, Esq. ^^^.^^ ^^'W\h\. the par of exchange is 207 rupees for 100 Spanish dollars. The same thing took place with regard to the exchange on ]5ombay ; private merchants could only get bills at 212 rupees for 100 Spanish dollars instead of 220, the real par. The consequence of this obstruction is, that private merchants are under the necessity of carrying back such goods, in small quantities, as will sell in India; and of late years, particularly as the Com- pany's treasury in Canton has been shut against bills on this country, of returning to India with large quantities of bullion. There is scarcely a ship that has lately come from Canton to Calcutta that has not brought back dollars and Sycee silver to a great amount. Instead, therefore, of the ordi- nary advantages of legitimate traffic, the Indian merchants are actually deprived of those means of remittance to England which they are most desirous of accomplishing, and through which the national interests would be greatly promoted. In this way there is, as I conceive, a most important ob- struction thrown in the w-ay of the commercial intercourse between India and England, by the restrictions on trade arising out of tlie system of the Company's China monopoly. ol'Sg^/. How does that interference affect the dealings with the Chinese at Canton? — The dealings with the Chinese at Canton would be propor- tionally increased if the trade was thrown open, because it would encourage greater exports from this country, and larger exports from India to China, if the Indian merchants had the means of remitting to England, which they are now in search of, and in which they are so much obstructed. 3490rt. Do you consider the exports from China as sufficient to afford the means of remittance for all the exports which it is now so difficult to obtain? — I have no doubt that tiom such a country as China almost any amount might be provided for the purpose of returns to this country, to India, and to other parts of the world. 3491a. On what authority do you form that opinioii? — ' ;:roMnd it upon the belief, that such a country as China, with all its varieties of soil .-ukI climate, and occupied by a naturally industrious population, cannot fail to produce all the articles which it now yields in fir greater quantities than it now does. 3492^. Have you had any communication or information enabling you to form an opinion of the anxiety of the Chinese to extend their trade? — I believe that the Chinese are a ))erfectly commercial ])eo])lc. M'herever the Chinese have been established, in Sincapore, in Java, in IJorneo, and in the other eastern islands where they are settled iu great niunbers, they are foun»l to be the principal traders, and the most industrious jieople in the country. I therefore take tlie Chinese, generally speaking, to be a perfectly com- mercial people, and exceedingly anxious to extend their commercial dealings, in R. Richdirk, J'.nii. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS, -l-^a in spite of any restrictive regulations that may be imposed upon them by tlie 22 Maidi \>-?,<). Chinese government. S\^Sa. Have you had any specific examples brought to your notice of the desire on the part of tiie Cliincse, in otiicr ports than Canton to o])en a coni- nuinication with the Englisli merchants? — Yes. 1 iiave in my jjossession an extract of a letter from an European mercliant who had visited China, to his friend and correspondent in Calcutta. It is dated Canton, 19th September 18'i3 } and the extract is as follows: "The Manilla people only are allowed liberty to trade to Amoy, which would have been granted to ns could we have waited. A mandarin followed us seven miles from, till' jmrt of Amoy to entreat our return, which, however, our plans would not admit of. We experienced civil treatment, even from the mandarins of rank, and fho complaisance of the inliabitants generally formed an agreeable contrast to the haiij,'^hty demeanour of the lowest here (Canton). The single circumstance of foreigners not being denied women (as they are most rigidly here, Canton, j speaks volumes. No foreigner is allowed to remain after the departure of his ship. As far as we could learn, no charge similar to measurement-duty is levied on foreign ships. The govern- ment revenue is derived from an export duty, which the foreigner pays on his export cargo: but this duty appears to be not fixed ; and I suspect the injudiciousness of the mandarins in increasing it beyond bounds, is the cause of the discontinuance of the trade by the Manilla people. It is probable that, with a view to bring it back, the mandarins would now be more reasonable. They seemed to say, that the Hong merchants of Amoy are pretty much in the bankrupt situation of those Iutc (Canton). They inquired much for most of the articles from the eastern isles unpirted in their jiniks; and also' for rice, /"or which they rely mainly on Formosa ; but we could form no idea of the price to be obtained for them. The prices of the European ar- ticles we saw in the shops were not so nuich above the Canton rates as was to be expected. I am very keen for an adventure to Amoy, for the purpose of opening new channels for opium in that quarter, the cliicf mart of its consumption ; but it is too weighty a concern for us to undertake singly ; and I have contented myself with writing to Manilla for information, and with sounding our friends there on the subject. As you have already adventured in a Chinese bottom, you will, I hope, give a lift to our plans also. The foreign trade in junks is not contraband in China, since the accession of the present family (about KUiO). It is connived at by the government , and is, I believe, even licensed at Amoy. I do not see why a junk could not load goods at Amoy or elsewhere, as if for a foreign port (Manilla, Batavia, &c.), and afterwards tranship them to a foreign vessel waiting in the neighbourhood." SiO'ia. What, in your opinion, would be the result of opening the trade witli China to Englishmen generally? — I believe it would have tlie effect of extending the commercial intercourse between this country and the East most materially. I ventured in the year 18L3 to predict, that that would be the consequence of opening the trade to India. That opinion is most abundantly proved by No. 40 of the " I'apers relating to the Finances of India," which is contained in the collection presented by His Majesty's command in February 1830, and now on this table. It was stated at that time (1813) by the advocates of the Company, that it was impossible to increase the export trade to India. I ventured to entertain a. diiierent opinion ; and I refer to this statemont, No. 40, in support of the opinion I thea 424 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : •2-2 Maicli 1S30. then gave. That statement shows that, on the average of sixteen years, the Company's exports of goods to India were only 385,650 rupees per annum, li.Ukknrds, Esq. whereas the average of sixteen years' exports by private individuals from Great Britain is 1,56,96,078 rupees. The treasure exported by the East- India Company averages 12,15,^94 rupees, and by individuals 24,40,113 rupees. The total of the exports by the East-India Company is therefore 57,10,344 rupees, and by private individuals 1,81,36,191 rupees. If the whole of the exports by individuals from foreign Europe and America con- tained in that statement be added to the English exports, it will give a total of 2,82,54,537 rupees by individuals, against 50,71,344 rupees by the Com- pany. Thus the trade to India is proved to have been capable of increase, which I then maintained would be the case ; and though this increase exceeds even my expectations, considering all circumstances, still, great as it is, I have a most perfect conviction that, if the trade to China was also opened, there would be a far greater increase of the exports from this country than is exhibited in this statement. 3495a. Are you not aware of the peculiarities of the Chinese government with regard to trade, and that a comparison cannot therefore be fairly made between India and Ciiina as to any expected increase?— I know that the Chinese government have imposed restrictive regulations upon the foreign trade of their own country ; but I know, at the same time, that these regu- lations are completely set at nought by the commercial spirit of the people. 3496a. Are you aware that the Chinese government prohibit entirely the exportation of silver? — They do. 34,f)7rt. Have you any means of stating to the Committee what quantities are annually exported notwithstanding those prohibitions ? — I have already stated in a former answer, that large quantities of silver were necessarily exported from Canton to Calcutta, and to Bombay, inconsequence of the low rate of exchange prevailing there, and the impossibility of the Indian mer- chants getting a remittance for their funds to this country via China. I liave in my office in llie City various accounts of remittances of bullion to Bengal and Bombay in different seasons ; but just previous to my coming down to the Committee I fell in with a Canton ])rice-current and register, which gives the following as the exports of bullion from Canton to Calcutta and Bombay in the year 1828. The exportation to Bengal in dollars was 2,169,837, In Sycec silver, 19,210; South American silver, 55,273 ; total, 2,244,320 dollars. The exportation to Bombay in dollars, Sycee and South American silver, 3,423,659 dollars. Total exported, 5,667,979 dollars. Tile importations of dollars in the season 1828, are stated in the same register to amount to about 2,304,800 ; and the circulation of Company's bills on the Supreme Government of Bengal would probably not amount to more than seventeen lacs of dollars. I copied this information out of the printed register, dated 26th February 1828. 3498a. Are you not afraid, that if the trade were thrown open by removing the SELKCT COMMITTEE of riii; HOUSE OF COMMONS. 4>25 the Company's present exclusive privilege, there might be danger of inter- 22 March 1830. niption to the trade with Englislimeii ? — Not the least. I am clearly ol' opinion that we have means, and more powerful means, of controlling the ^^•^^"■^'^"''^■''■> '■'"/■ trade with China, than the Chinese government itself. StOy^. On what do you found that opinion? — From the printed official statements before the public. It appears in one of them, viz. No. 29 of Papers, &c. 4th June 1829, that out of 15,000,000 of imports into Canton in one year, 11,000,000 were of the article of opium. Now the Chinese, although it is a prohibited article, are in the constant habit of using it, the higher ranks as well as the lower ranks. They cannot therefore do without it. It is well known that those persons who are in the habit of using opium cannot leave it off; the Chinese would therefore require importations of opium to the same extent as formerly. Tiicy require also large supplies of dollars ; for it is a curious fact, as stated in the register I have before quoted, that the importation of dollars into China in the year referred to was only '^.SOt.SOO, when the exports to Bombay and Bengal amounted to above 5,600,000. In this state of export and import, it is therefore clear that China must be in a constant need of a supply of dollars, which in the case supposed, it could only procure from private traders. The Chinese also require to be supplied, as stated in the extract of the letter I gave in, with rice from the island of Formosa. It is understood that two, at least, of the provinces on the eastern side of China are deficient in that commodity, and that if those supplies were stopped it would go a great way to create disturbance in the country. Although I do not anticipate any such obstruction as is contem- plated in the question (for I have no idea that the Chinese would have the least objection to the opening of the trade', still if measures of coercion should be rendered eventually necessary, the employment of two or three cruizers upon the coast would effectually prevent the entrance of those very important supplies into China, which I have above enumerated ; the conse- quence of which would be great distress to the Chinese themselves, and, in all probability, immediate concessions and advances for a renewal of friendly intercourse, even if they had been previously disposed, under the orders of their own government, to obstruct it. Let it also be recollected that they would have, if the trade were stopped, large supplies of tea on hand -f^ and if they could not sell those teas to English merchants, I should be glad to know to whom they would sell them. In this respect our means of influencing the trade are also great, for a stoppage of the tea-trade would be attended with incalculable distress to a vast mass of population in the tea districts ; it is therefore to the full as much their interest to sell as it is ours to buy. But if all these means and powerful incentives were to fail, we have still a hope left ; for it is well known by those gentlemen who have lived in the Eastern Islands for some time, that the Chinese merchants established in those islands would at any time contract with foreigners upon the spot to supply any quantity of tea, and of any quality that might be desired. If therefore English ships were prohibited going to China, 1 conceive tiiat sup- plies 426 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 22 March 1830, plies of tea and other Chinese articles might just as easily be got from Sin- ~ — • capore, or Java, and other ports in the Eastern Archipelago, as they can R.Uirhnrds^Esq. ^ow from China itself. These then are the grounds of my belief, that under all circumstances, we have the means of controlling the trade with China, even more effectually than the Chinese government itself; for when the Chinese merchants and the mass of the community find that they have an interest in carrying on certain branches of trade, they will do it ; as is sufficiently manifest in their importation of opium, and export of silver, in spite of the most severe laws that can be enacted by their own govern, ment. 3500a. Are you of opinion, that it is as much the interest of China to trade with us, as it is of England to trade with China? — I think so, if not more. 3501(7. In what way do you consider that a few English cruisers would so influence tlie Chinese government as to oblige them to open the trade, if, by any circumstance, it was once interrupted ? — I allude to that as an extreme case, and of course only to be resorted to in the event of its being found indispensably necessary, or justified by some previous act of aL'gression on the part of the Chinese authorities. I am far from thinking it one that is likely to happen; but if it should be necessary to control the government of China by force, I think that, by the means I have suggested, you might effectually accomplish the intended object. I repeat, however, that I do not anticipate you ever would be obliged to have recourse to any such measure of hostility ; for my firm belief is, that the Cliinese would gladly hail the approacli oH free-traders, and receive their goods, giving theirs in return, without the least difficulty. 3502a. Have you known of any circumstance obliging the Chinese govern- ment to make terms witii individuals interrupting their trade ? — I am not acquainted with any that I could speak very decidedly to ; I have heard of such occurrences, but the public records are probably the best authority on this head. 3503a. Do you suppose it would be necessary to export bullion to China for the purchase of tea, silks, and other articles which would be required by the extended trade you contemplate? — Certainly not, no more than it is now necessary to export bullion to Intiia. The trade would soon fall into channels which would render it easy for British merchants resorting to China to furnish themselves with funds, by giving bills to Indian merchants, or their repre- sentatives in China, or to agents on tiie spot ; and funds would thus be raised to any required extent upon reasonable terms, such as would enable the trade to be carried on, in all j)robability, with advantage to both parties. ^ 3501>«. Is it your opinion that the operation of the trade at Canton would be equally beneficial to India as to England, in promoting the general com- merce between all the three countries ? — The advantage that would result to the Indian merchants from making the trade to China perfectly free, and SELECT COMMITTEE oi. the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 427 by thus promoting British exports, appears to me to be absolutely in- 22 Maicli IHSO- calculable. 3505a. Is not the export of goods to India at the present moment limited by the difficulty of obtaining returns? — Most certainly ; in tlie way I have explained. SoOGa, Is it your opinion that the exports from China to England, and to the rest of the world, wliich might be available by English merchants, would remove that difficulty, and consequently increase the general trade, not only from China, but from England to India? — It would, in my opinion, increase it incalculably. I cannot express my conviction on this head too strongly. 3507«. And these are the grounds on which you consider such advantages would accrue to both India and England from a Iree intercourse with China ? —Yes. 3.508a. Do you know how the Company pay their investments in Cliina, as it is evident from the official returns that tliey do not send out manufac- tures equal to purchase their investments? — I have always been of opinion, ever since I had the first opportunity, in the year 1812-18, of analyzing the Company's accomits, tiiat their trade is entiiely supplied by their revenues; and that, so far fiom their commerce ever being of the slightest aid to the territorial concern, it is the territory that alone supports and upholds their conmierce. They could not, in my opinion, carry on trade without the sup- port of the revenue. Their supplies of investments, both from India and China, are invariably furnished by Indian revenues. 3509a. Is it your opinion that the government of India, under these cir- cumstances, would be maintained better by the Company not being traders, either to India or to China, than as they now are ? — I am quite sure that it would. I have no doubt that it would be found, upon a careful examina- tion of the official accounts which have been laid before Parliament, that there has been a surplus revenue from the territories of India, to a very co;;- siderable amount, for the last thirty-five or thirty-six years at the least, which accounts I have had an opportunity of inspecting. That surplus revenue would have enabled the Company to carry on the political concern without any foreign aid whatever. I consider, on the other hand, that the commerce of the East-India Company is the sole cause of all their incum- brances and debts. I avail myself witii pleasure of the opportunity which the question affords me, of adding my unreserved belie.'^j from a careful examination of the records of the India Company, which have been printed and cuculated in four large folio volumes, for the use, I believe, of their servants abroad — from the ability displayed in those records, and the anxious disposition uniformly expressed to promote the welfare of their territorial possessions, that the East-India Company will be found to be by far the best 3 I organ li. liir/iards, Esq. 428 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 22 March 1830. organ or instrument that His Majesty's Government can employ for the future . poUtical administration of that country ; and I do lament most sincerely, that Ji.liiriai s, tsg. jj^^^ should ever think it necessary to mix up a commercial character with their political one, inasmuch as I, as conscientiously, believe their commerce to be their bane. 3510a. Will you be prepared, at a future period, to submit to the Com- mittee a statement, showing how far the revenues of India are, in your opinion, from the documents laid before Parliament, adequate to maintain the government of that coinitry without the aid or interference of commerce? — Yes, I am perfectly prepared to prove it now. 3511a. You have stated, that by the Company going into the market in India as merchants, considerable derangement and increase of price takes place at various places where their investments are purchased : are you able to state what effect the sales of those investments have on the general state of commerce in England, when they take place? — As far as regards their interfering with the purchase of goods in India, I have already stated, that whenever tiie Company's agents are known to be in the market, it inva- riably has the effect of running up the prices from 15 to 30 per cent. The price of cotton, for example, I have known to be run up by this cause. Since I have left India I have also known of many instances, from corres- pondence I have carried on with India, where the same etlect has been produced in other articles. I remember, upon one occasion, that when the Company first entered into the indigo trade, the government of Bengal were afraid of making their purchases openly for tlie Company's investment. They employed an agent upon the spot to make purchases for them. It was very soon found out by the resident merchants of Calcutta tiiat there was u Company's agent in the market, and the price was run up in the course of about eight or ten days from 190 rupees a maund to 230, 240, and 250 rupees a maund. I happen to know of one house in Calcutta, that having made a purchase of a considerable quantity of indigo at 190 rupees per maund, sold it in a few days afterwards for 230 or 210 rupees per maimd, and thus realized upon there-sale of it, in consequence of tiie Company being in the market, between three and four lacs of rupees before they had had time to pay for the original purchase. 3512a. Would not that rise in price be occasioned by any other great customer coming into tlie market? — By such a customer as the East-India Company. 3513a. Do you know any persons trading to India who have the capital at command that the East-India Company have, to go into the market and purchase so largely of any commodity? — 1 know of no capital that the Company possess, except what they obtain annually from their revenues in India ; SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 429 India; but that capital is so enormous, that it is impossible for any private 22 March 1830. merchant to compete with them. li. Birkards, Esq. 3514<7. Can you state any effect that has been produced on the markets in England by the Company's sales of their large purchases? — In some instances it may affect the markets here ; but the Company's sales in general of tiieir goods have been very fairly made, and I would not say that it affects the markets here materially, although in some instances it may have done so. 3515a. You consider tlie effects to be principally in their making their purchases in India ? — That is the great cause of derangement, and which is absolutely ruinous to the commercial intercourse between the two countries. SSlGa. Are you able to state how far that principle may apply to their purchases in Canton ? — Their purchases in Canton are made, as I stated before, by supplies, in a great measure, which are forwarded from India in goods to Canton for that purpose ; those goods are either taken in kind from the revenues of India, as I have before explained in respect to the west of India, or else they are purchased in the public market, as in Bengal, at a price far above that which the private merchants would give ; and as long as the China monopoly is continued, these injuries will also be perpetuated. 3.5170. You refer now to the proportion of goods which the Company purchase in India ? — Yes. 351 8rt. How does that affect the purchase of tea? — Upon a fur mercantile statement of the concern, it would certainly affect the out-turn of the speculation. 3519a. Do you mean to say that much of the Company's revenue is collected in kind in Bombay ? — I know that it was when I was in India, in the cotton districts belonging to the Company on the western side of the peninsula. They were constantly in the habit of taking their proportion of the cotton produce, or half of the gross produce, in kind. 3520a. Was not that always a very small proportion of the cotton exported from India to China? — Not a small proportion. I know that in Bengal they purchase cotton ; but I have letters from gentlemen in Calcutta, stating that the prices in the year 1821 of cotton to the East-India Company was about 25 rupees per maund, when it was procurable by private mer- chants at the rate of 15. This was ascertained from the cucumstance of the Company having sent out orders to Calcutta, that the commanders and officers of their ships should only be allowed to take cotton to China on con- dition of taking it from the Company at the prices which it cost them. On another year it was stated, that the cost was in the same way to the captains 3 12 and 430 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 22 March 1830. and officers of the Indiamen 18 rupee?, when tlie cuiient market price of it in Calcutta was 14. R. Richards, Esq. 3521fl. What, in your opinion, would be the effect of opening the trade to China to the EngUsh generally ; would it give the British merchants any advantage over the Americans and Dutch, or other people, for the supply of Europe ? — A very great advanta<:e over all otlier nations ; and that advantage would arise out of the facilities which I have before mentioned, that would be mutually granted to each other by the Indian and the British traders. It would also give a great advantage to British merchants, in as far as it would enable them to supply all our colonies, South America, and even the countries of Europe, with Cliinese produce, which they could do then upon better terms than the Americans, or the French, or the Portuguese, or Dutch, or any other nation that has been in the habit of trading to China. The advantages of opening the trade to China, both to England, and to India, as I before said, appear to me to be quite incalculable. 3522«. Are our colonies principally supplied with Chinese produce by other countries ? — The Americans now participate very largely in the carrying trade ; but I have had conversations myself with Americans on this very subject, and their apprehension is, that if the trade to China were once thrown open to British merchants, they (the Americans) would be entirely throv;n out of the market. There is doubtless some cause for this alarm, from what has already taken place in India. In consequence of the defjree of ireedom "iven to the trade in India since 1813, British merchants have completely excluded the Americans from that country : it is therefore no unreasonable conclusion that the same effect would be produced by opening the trade to China. The Americans are at all events alive to it as a probable result. Mortis, 23° die Marin, 1830. HENRY WILLIAM MASTERSON, Esq. called in, and examined. , »i 1 .o«„ 352oa. I BELIEVE you are vice-consul at Rotterdam? — I am. 23 Maicli 1831). •' 3524a. You do not receive any salary ? — No j I have never received any 77. IV. Masterson, ,.j.,jnj„eiation fiom any one on that account. Lsq. 3525a. Are you engaged in trade ? — For the last fifteen years I have had thu superintendence of a commercial concern at Rotterdam. 352f)a. Is SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 431 35QGa. Is that commercial concern upon an extensive scale? — It lias been 23 Martli 1830. upon an extensive scale. „ ...TT" 3527a. Haveyou directed much or your attention to the tea-trade in liol- j? land?— I have lor the last ten or twelve years past. 352Sa. Can you exliibit any view of the tea-trade, and for what period? — I can lay before t!ie Committee a statement made up by myself^ containing a view of the Netherlands tea-trade for tiie fist twelve years, distinguishing the quantity impo'.ted by the Dutch, and by Americans, tlie only other parties who'iiave been engaged in the trade. About half a million of quarter- chests of tea have been imported in that period, giving an average annual importation of about 41,000 quarter-chests. 3529a. Does that include the whole of the Netherlands? — It includes Belgium and the whole of the Netherlands. Tiie statement exhibits about three-fifths of the trade in the hands of the Americans, and two-fifilis only in the hands of the Dutch, during the whole of that period. Tlie statement shows also the duties and prices ; the duty varies from five-eighths of a penny per English pound to four-pence and five-eighths, according to circumstances, bringing it into English money and weights. 3530a. Is that an ad valorem duty }—l>io; ihere was an ad valorem duty of 10 per cent in 1818, when this statement commences ; but some alteratiuii was then made with a view of favouring the Dutch flag, which lias not, how- ever, iiad that effect ; indeed the duties are so low that the difference be- tween importations by Dutch and foreign flags is only about an Englisii penny in tiie lower prices, and on the iiigher prices it is nothing. 3531a. Are there any duties paid upon importations in foreign bottoms into the Dutch ports?— For the lower sorts of teas, instead of five-eighths of a penny by a Dutch vessel, it is one penny and five-eighths by foreign vessels, and there is a duty of a tenth upon English vessels; that is a general aiiditional duty upon all articles imported in English vessels. 353Qa. Will you have the goodness to deliver in the statement you have prepared ? — [The xdtness delivered in lite same, icfiich xvas read, asfolloxvs ;] 4S2 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS 23 Murcli 1830, H. IV. Mnsterson. Esq. TEA TRADE TO i8i8 1819 l8-20 1821 1822 1823 1824 1825 1826 1827 1828 1829 IMPORTATIONS. Netherland Vessels. Number of whole Cargoes. 32 Quantity. Number of whole Cargoes. \ chests. 37.381 6,948 14,029 6,279 8,987 6,811 6,364 37,764 23,583 29,834 21,034 United States Vessels. II 199>0H 53 Quantity, in wliole or broken Cargoes. ^ chests. 53,154 52,981 59,343 10,934 19,037 26,192 6,212 30,860 8,004 4,455 16,838 5,358 293,368 TOTAL. Imports. \ chests. 90,5.''o 59,929 73.372 17,213 28,024 26,192 13,023 37,224 45,768 28,038 46,672 26,392 492,382 DUTIES ON By Netherland Vessels. 10 per cent, ad valorem. If imported direct : "^ Bohea and low Congo, ~| •j'-^th of a 5 guilders 6 cents per 100 > penny per Nethd. lbs J Eng. lb. Other sorts, 10 guilders ? -}Hh of a 1 2 cents j penny. \ V,-: If imported indirect : Bohea and low Congo, 7 1 J penny 16 guilders 19 cents .... 3 per Eng. lb. Other sorts, 32 guilders ) 38 cents (3 P^"'^^' 'If imported direct, andin xvhole Cargoes: Bohea and low Congo, "» |th of a 7 guilders per 100 N. > penny per lbs J Eng. lb. Other sorts, 12 guild-) i-jLthofa Jers J penny. If imported indirect, in broken Cargoes : Bohea and low Congo, / ' « ''' °^ '"* 18 guilders (P''""^kP" '^ ) Eng. lb. All other sorts,34euild- ) 1 > 3 pence. ^ ers j f Imported direct, in ivhole Cargoes : .> As before. J If imported indirect, in broken Cargoes : ^ Bohea and low Congo, 1 , 27 guilders per 100 N. I '^•^^Pcnf lbs. jperEng.lb. All other sorts, fii 7 c,, .guilders f_ J4fthpence N.B. — The different sized packages of tea have all been brought to quarter-chests in the above Table. The ^ cliost tukiMi at (i<) Eng. lbs. net, makes the average annual import, 2,700,000 lbs. The average consuuii)ti(m hcslimalcd at 2,(k)0,ooo lbs. Rotterdam, the 8th March 1830. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 433 THE NETHERLANDS. 23 Alaitli IbJO. IMPORTATIONS. By Foreign Vessels. No difference Bohea and low ^ l^ths Congo, iS guilders /- perniy per r 100 N. lbs. . . J Eng. lb. pe All other sorts, 34 gu' other sorts, \ „ „„„„„ Iders j 3 pence. If direct, in tuhole Cargoes : Bohea and low I i|ths Conijo, iS guilders, J penny. All other sorts, 1 „ ■, 1 }■ 3 pence. 34 guilders J ' Indirect, and in broken Cargoes ; Bohea and low 1 ^, „ ., I }2i pence. Congo, 27 guilders J - ' All othei 51 guilders PRICES (Duty paid), Taken about the middle of each Year. In Dutch Money, Per 1 Netherland'll). k, 11 to 51 stivers, per I \ lb \ Bohea to fine Souchong) J In English Money, Per English lb. s. d. Black, o 10 Black N (low Bol Green, 23 to 75 stivers (common Skin to fine Hyson) j" Black, 10 to 50 stivers | Black, o 1 Green, 16 to 56 — Green, 1 s. d, to 3 10 pence. Black, 10 to 42 — Green, 17 to 54 — Black, 10 to 40 — Green, 16 to 42 — Black, 16 to 48 — Green, 22 to 56 — Black, 15 to 42 — Green, 25 to 51 — Black, 16 to 45 — Green, 27 to 50 — ■ Black, 1(5 to 5.5 — Green, 28 to 50 — 15lHck, 10 to 45 — Green, 19 to 46 — - Black, 10 to 40 — Green, 18 to 48 — Black, 9 to 45 — Green, 15 to 42 — Black, 10 to 48 — ■ Green, 17 to 50 — Green, 1 9 to 5 7^ 9 to 3 9 H to 4 2i Black, o 9 to 3 2 Green, 1 3 to 4 o Black, o 9 to 3 o Green, x 2^ to 3 2 Black, 2^ to 3 7 Green, 8 to 4 3i Black, ij to 3 2 Green, loi to 3 10 Black, 2^ to 3 4i Green, 11 to 3 9 Black, 2i to 4 ij Green, 2 1 to 3 9 Black, 9 to 3 4J Green, 1 5 to 3 5^ Black, o Green, 1 to 3 to 3 Black, o 8 to 3 43 Green, 1 ij to 3 2 Black, 9 to 3 7 Green, 1 3 to 3 9 //. IV. Ma-sUisoii . N.B.—Yrom -^^Ih to ^',^th of a penny must be added to the foregoing specif c duties on tea, for the rreneral augmentation on the duties of all goods, which varies from year to year, and ha? fluctuated between 13 and 15 per cent. H. \V. Masterson. 434 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 23 Maicli 1830. 3533a. What is the population of the Netherlands ? — Six millions ; two millions for Holland, and four millions for Belgium. P_!,n 3.534rt. Do the Belgians consume much tea ?— Comparatively with the Dutch, very little. 35S5a. Is any part of the tea brought into Holland exported? — A portion is exported, but a very small one, as Hamhurgh competes with Holland in the exportation to the interior of Germany, Some portion of tea goes from Holland even as far as Poland ; it is supposed with the intention of smuggling it into Russia. 3536rt. Does any of it find its way up the Rhine r — Yes, some greentea to Germany, and some black tea to Poland, for the purpose I have mentioned. 3.537(7. Do the Dutch consume more black or more green tea? — The Dutch consume more black than green teas. Some provinces, Friesland for example, more green than black. Brabant, which is suppfied from Holland, as it imports very little tea, takes chiefly green tea from Holland. Some very fine hyson and gunpowder tea is supposed to find a particular demand, at present, in Holland for Brabant, for the consumption of the numerous English settlers in Brussels and that quarter, who take the higher-priced teas. 3538(7.. Has the consumption of teas in Plolland been increasing since 1S18 ? — It has been stationary ; it is gni.iposed to be about 2,400,000 pounds Dutch, about 2,700,000 pounds English. The consumption is supposedto be about 40,000 chests: the importation is about 41,000 chests. '6ij3()ci. Can you describe the quality of the tea consumed in Holland? — From my own knowled^re, I will not take upon myself to speak of the quality of tea. I have brought with me samples of a cargo of tea vvliich is now selling at Amsterdam, and which is considered by the trade in Holland as a good cargo, and may be considered a fair specimen of tea exported from China by foreigners; these samples are of tea which will have been sold on the 17th instant. X^Tlic n'ilness produced the same.~\ 3540(z. Have you any means of knowing whether that is the same quality or inferior in quality to that which is consmned in England? — From my own knowledge I cannot pretend to speak ; but I have a case in point of a person in Holland having required some tea, about a year since, of a particular quality, good souchong, which was not at that time to be obtained in Holland. He sent a sample of what he required to a merchant in ICngland. I have the letter with me which he received in reply, and 1 will pro- duce it ; it is dated London, the 2nd of May 182tt,'?-i07 ^^'^^^ °^ carrying on the trade in Holland ? — It is understood in Holland to Esff. ' ^^ caused by their having nothing of any value to export to China, 356Sa, Is it conceived then, tliat the result of an open trade between England and China would be tn lower the price of teas in Europe ? — It is no doubt the opinion in Holland, that as the company cannot compete with the Americans, who have a free trade, they would be still less able to do so with the English, who probably, for the sake of merely obtaining remittances for tiieir exports from Hindoostan to China, if not for their exportations, manufacturers from England would be able considerably to nndersell the Americans. The Dutch, as well as the merchants of other nations, have latterly given up the hope of importing teas or colonial produce to any profit upon the cost prices, and are aware that they can merely import to advantage as remittances for exports. 3569a. Is not the Dutch Company limited in its exportations to the manufactures of Belgium? — They have exported from Holland very little latterly to China, ami hardly any Netherland manufactures ; they have even sent rice to China from Java. With the jjermission of the Committee, I will read an extract from a discoiu'se of Mr. Schimmelpennick, the president of the Dutch trading Company. In addressing the Commissioners in June iS'i^S, he says: "Le resultat de nos expeditions pour Canton en 182G, qui ont et^ realisees en parti durant le cours de I'annee 1827, vous sera detaille dans les pieces jointes an bilan. Vous y observerez. Messieurs, que, qiioique ces dernieres expeditions se soient lisees avec beaucoup moins de perte que les precedentes, ce commerce, si particulierement enjoint a la direction, lui a de nouveau coute des saciiticcs trop grands pour, qu'a la longue, elle puisse se trouver autorisce a y exposer la societe." SSJOd. Are not the Dutch Company obliged to export Belgian manufac- tures? — It has been proposed to them, as I understand, to follow the Auk- j ican plan, and to export English manufactures ; but they are not able, by the constitution of their establishment, to do so ; they are restricted to their own manufactures. 3.571^. Supposing they were allowed to expoit British manufactiues to China, do you not conceive that they might carry on the China trade witli a greater prospect of advantage than they can do now, being restricted to the export of Belgian manufactures? — There seems to be no iloubt of it, since the Americans carry on the trade ; and it is understood in Holland that the Americans are otdy enabled to bring tea to Holland at present prices, by the manufactures they import to Ciiina. The Dutch are aware tliat the ]Ci.g!i-!i, of course, could export their own manufactures to as great advantage as the Americans ; but they suppose, also, that many of tlie English East-India houses have great f"unds always lying at Canton, for which they are anxious to find remittances, and are heedless whether the goods they invest them in sell for cost-price or not, so long as they get a good return of liie profiis already SELECT CO:\IMITTHE of tuk HOUSE OF COMMONS. 439 already realized by tlieir Indian trade to China, wliicli tlie funds lying tiiere 23 March 1830. reorescnt; upon wliicli principle, trade, in all colonial !)roduce, has been „ „,Tr~ ^ . c III.- II. W. Masler-sou, carrvnig on lor a considerable tnne. ^. 3.572ff. Would the I'.nglish merchants have a considerable advantage in carrying on that trade, inasmuch as it is England which produces the article most in requisition in the China market? — It is understood so in Holland; and that they have that further advantage in the exports of raw cotton and other goods that go to Ciiina from Hindoostan. 3573^/. Are the Dutch Trading Company prohibited from sending manu- factures of other countries besides England? — They are ; the society was established for the encouragement of Dutch trade and manufactures. 3574r/. Supposing the trade between England and China to be thrown open, are you not of opinion that a considerable portion of the whole tea trade of the world would centre in England ? — My own opinion, and the opinion of most people in Holland is, that if the Dutch government were not excited by any particular jealousy of England, that is, if they allowed the English to remain upon the same footing as the Americans now are, that both the Americans and the Dutch would cease to supply Holland with tea, and the whole supply of Holland, v.'hatever that is, would be furnished by British merchants. 3575^. Should you not say that the chief supply of the Continent of Europe would go through this country ? — I shoukl suppose so. 3576(1. Do you know whether it is probable that any portion of the tea consumed in the United States of America would, under those circumstances, be first sent to this country ? — I should not wish to give an opinion upon that. I have no sufficient information upon that subject. 3577^. Are there any private merchants carrying on the tea trade in Hol- land at this moment?— The history of the tea trade in Holland since the expulsion of the Erench in 1814 is as follows. In 1815 a monopoly of the trade was granted to a Dutch company, " to prevent," as the preamble of the royal decree stated, " the trade fldling into the hands of foreigners." In ISI7 that company was dissolved. In 1818, when the table I have given in commences, tiie Americans took the lead in the trade. In 1822 an altera- tion in the duty was made, to I'avour the importation by national vessels. In 1825 the Trading Company entered on it; and in 1826 Dutch importations again became considerable,' but were still unprofitable, and were again aban- doned by private Dutch inercliants, but have been continued by the Com- pany till now, when the Dutch altogether have abandoned it. 3578.7. Are you aware of a large quantity of tea being purchased at the l^ast-India House in London, and exported to Holland in the year 1814? — I Iiave no knowledge of it. I was not in Holland at that time ; I went there first in 1815. 3579<'/. Do not the Dutch Company at the present moment pay very large Esq. 440 EVIDENCE OX EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 23 March 1830. large freights? — The last freights of the Dutch Company were 310 guilders n~\r~ P^'^ '^^^ ^'^ ~^ quarter-chests, and 15 per cent, primage ; that would amount, ksT^ ' ^^ ^'^ English pounds per quarter-chest, to about 5d. per pound English, but it is subject to the deduction of any outward freights they can make for the ships. 3580a. Can you state what is the expense of navigating their ships, as compared with ours ? — I have no means at hand of establishing an accurate comparison. 3581(1. Siqiposing the Dutch Company to carry on that trade, and not to have manufactures that they can export, would not almost the whole of the freight fall upon the tea.' — Clearly. 3582c/. In the case of a trade carried on by private individuals, is it or not the fact, that at the present moment a great portion of the freight upon an article imported, such as tea, would fall upon the manufactured goods which were exported from the country into which the tea was to be imported ? — Undoubtedly the manufactured and exported article must yield profits suffi- ciently large to pay the freight charges, and the difference between the cost price and the selling price of the article, which appears to be the case by the American trade. 3583//. So that the tea imported under those circumstances would only be a means of remittance? — A means of realizing the profit to be made upon exports, which is the case at present, and has been the case for some time past, with coffee and almost every other imported article. 3584//. How many months' consumption of tea is there commonly in Hol- land? — Never more than a year's. At this moment we have probably of stocks openly known, three-quarters of a year's consumption ; but there are many private speculators v.ho hold old teas, which may complete the stock to a year's consumption. The Americans never hold stocks. There is not 1,500 quarter-chests of American tea in Holland. 3585//. Is not the fresh tea better than that which has been kept for some time? — So much so, that the American cargoes that come indirectly from America, are on that account not of so current sale as those imported direct from China. 358G//. Have you ever heard of any tea grown in the Brazils being sold in the Dutch market? — I never heard of any being sold in the Dutch market; but I have had it reported to me by a broker, that he had seen black tea grown in the Brazils, which was ecpial in flavour to any that came from China. The tea-taster of the Dutch Trading Company at Canton was em- ployed to examine the tea attempted to be cultivated in Java, and he found it to be worthless, and the gardens were rootetl up; but the broker alluded to reported to me, that the sample sent to him of the tea growing in the Brazils was excellent, and he wislied through me to get information relative to the further SELECT COMMITTEE of tiik HOUSE OF COMMONS. 44.1 further cultivation of this tea, but I have had no means of informing myself 23Maicli J830. further on the subject. 3587^'. Is not it cultivated by Chinese in both places ? — I presume it is. ' • '^/^^ '^^^"^'> 35SSa. Do you know whether it is cultivated to any large extent in the Brazils ? — I do not know. 3589a. Have you ever seen any of the tea brought to Russia ? — Tlie house I belong to was induced to order samples of tea from Moscow, a twelvemonth ago, with a view of seeing whether it would answer in Holland ; but the teas which were sent from Moscow appeared to be of a different growth, and dif- ferent quality entirely from the teas we are used to in this part of the world, and were not at all suited to the Dutch taste. 3590a. Do you know what part of China it came from ? — No ; but I should presume, from the geographical position of Russia, that it came from the opposite extremity of the Chinese empire to that from which we obtain our supply. We obtained from a correspondent at Moscow the samples in question, and the tea was very fine to look at, but it had a totally different taste to what we are used to. S591«. Do you conceive that that tea is suited to the European consump- tion ? — It would not do for us at all in Holland, and certainly our tea is much the same as yours. 3592a. Does not the difficulty in supplying an outward cargo from Holland materially enhance the price of importation ? — Certainly. 3593rt. Would not tiie economy arising from the existence of a facility in supplying an outward cargo reduce, in an extraordinary degree, the expense of importing tea ? — Certainly. 359'ia. Are dollars easily procurable in Holland? — Without difficulty; but generally from England. AVhen we have had occasion to send out dollars we have procured them from England. 3595a. In wliat proportion do dollars supply the means of importation for tea ? — The greater part, when the trade was in the hands of private mer- chants ; as to the Company, I cannot say. 3596a. Are you able to form a comparison between the rate of Dutch freight and the rate of American freight ? — I am not able to speak of it from my own knowledge, but I believe it to be much lower than the Dutch ; the general impression is, that it is much lower. 3597fl. What sized ships do the Dutch employ generally ? — Generally vessels from 400 to 500 tons. 359Srt. Are they, in your estimation, preferable to the largest class of vessels of 1,200 tons, used by this country ? — I cannot say, from my own knowledge ; but the Dutch use the smaller vessels because the larger are not suited to their rivers. 5599a. What 442 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 23 March 1830. 3599«. What crew would a 400-ton Dutch vessel be manned by ? — Twenty or twenty-two. Esn^'^^^ 3G00(7. Do you know the rate of insurance out and home? — It is prin- cipally done here. I believe it has been rather high, the Dutch India-men having had a bad character ; the English underwriters have suffered by them. SGQla. Do you know what the rate of insurance has been? — Six guineas, I believe. 3602«. Are they armed vessels ? — No. 3603(7, How do you account for the diminution that has taken place in the importation into the Netherlands since 1818, as it appears that in the year 1818 it was about 00,000 quarter-chests, and the importation then was con- siderably larger than it has been subsequently ? — If they had gone on im- porting at that rate, of 90,000 chests in a year, it is evident that they should have had too great a stock. The import on the whole has been so as to leave, on an average of tiie last twelve years, not more than a single year's stock ; but if it had been going on at the high rate at which it was in 1818, when the Americans imported 53,000 quarter-chests, we should have had much too large a supply. 3G04«. Does the Dutch Trading Company possess exclusive privileges? — The principle upon which it originally went was that of possessing exclusive privileges. The establishment of a company of that kind would have been offensive to people whose predilections, the result of ancient habits, were all in favour of a fiee trade. 3605r7. Do not they receive some tea from this country in Holland .- — I am not aware of it. 3G0G«. Are you aw;ue whether there is any smuggling of tea from Hol- land to tliis country? — 1 should think not; for this reason: 1 presume that the measures taken on tins side are too effective to admit of it ; and we observe on our side, that tiie snuiggiing towns of Terveer and Flushing are going to decay, and that smuggling to England in all articles seems to be fiUliuir off. *o SG07ff. Can you state whether the stock of the Dutch Company was at any time at a premium ? — It was, soon after its establishment, at 105. It opened at 100 ; and it has been down to 79 at the lowest. It is now about 94.(,. 3608ff. Is it conceived amongst the merchants in Holland, that a company so established, is the best means by wiiich trade can be carried on ? — The establishment of tiie com])any altogether is offensive almost to the whole of the people in Holland. Tliey were letl to suppose that their manufactures would floiuish with the support of tliat company ; but it does not ap])ear that tlie company have been able to force their manufactures into use abroad ; and they liavc lost a very considerable sum, the amount of whicli remains yet to be known. The dividend or interest does not afford any criterion of it: that has been always the sanve, and it is guaranteed by (he K 1 n'^. SGOda. Aie SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 443 3r)09«. Are yon aware wlietlier the operations of that company have inter- 23 MuvcU 1830. fered with the regular trade of Holhind ? — It is considered nearly to have rin'ned the trade in ahiiost every branch it has meddled with. ^^- '' Mffiniton, 35lOa. Do you consider tiiat the operations of such a company arc, upon general principles, exceedingly injurious to the conduct of mercantile trans- actions? — It is the opinion of the merchants of Holland, generally, that the clissolution of the company would be one of the greatest benefits they could receive-; and as tiie company is daily suffering great losses, hopes are enter- tained, even by those who are shareholders, that it will not be continued until the expiration of the term originally fixed for its existence, but that it will be dissolved earlier. SCyWa. Do you know what sum the government pays to make up the deficit? — I have never heard it mentioned, and I believe it is not known. I do not believe there are any means of ascertaining it. The king has guaran- teed that 4.V per cent, shall be paid, and the shaieholders are secure of that annuity ; but at the entl of the term for which the Company is established, it is feared that the losses will have absorbed the whole capital. 3f)12a. How old is that guarantee? — 'The original guarantee was given in IS'24, and it has been faithfully fulfilled; but privileges are given to the company which were never anticipated in the first instance. The govern- ment, naturally, to reduce this outlay of interest, gives advantages to the company. 3C)\3a. Is not the deficit made good out of the King's own private funds? — His Majesty guarantees it ; where the money comes from 1 have not the means of knowing. 3Gl4a. Does it appear in the budget in Holland? — No. 3(il5«. Does any apprehension exist that the government will be tired of making up this deficit ? — Great hopes of it are entertained ; it has been the only hope that the general trade has entertained for a long time. 36l6a. For how many years is the guarantee? — For the whole term, I believe, twenty-four or twenty-five years. 36l7fl. Is not the King a large shareholder in the company ? — He is. 36lS<7. Have this company any territorial revenue to back them? — Nothing of that kind. They were to be merely upon the footing of ordinary merchants ; but they have had great advantages given to them : the govern- ment coffee has been given to them at a fixed price, which price was, of course, intended to be very advantageous to them ; that is, the coffee which belongs to the government estates in Java. 36l9ff. Is there any monopoly in coffee? — There is cofl'ee which is de- liverable only to the government officers, and instead of selling it themselves in the public market, they give it to the company at a certain price. 3620a. Is there any law or regulation in Holland to prevent private adven- turers sending ships to China and receiving back returns ? — Not any. 3 L 3621a. Is 444 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 23 March 1830. 3621a. Is it within your knowledge whether any such adventures have ff n'~M~f ^a^en place? — Frequently, up to 18'25: I think private merchants then iso '^*'^"' abandoned the trade entirely. The house I have to do with imported a ^ cargo in 1822. 3622a. What was the general result of those private adventures? — Loss. 3623a. To what extent ? — I cannot say. 3624a. Was it 25 per cent. ? — Judging by the other results alluded to, I should suppose it might be. Our own loss was not any thing like that; it was not an original adventure to China, but the supercargo took the ship there. The teas turned out pretty well, but not so as to induce us to go out again. 3625rt. Can you inform the Committee whether such trade of private ad- venturers has been profitable or otherwise? — Certainly unprofitable. 3626rt. What are the exports to Java ? — Wine, Dutch claret, gin, &c., but the quantities trifling. It is a misfortune that we have so little of our own goods to export, and if there were not troops to export, we should not be able to find any freight outwards; the only hope for the ship-owner is to get a hundred men as freight for a vessel to Java. 3627a. Is there any regulation in Holland which would prevent the trade to China being carried on by private Dutch merchants in the same manner as it is now done by Americans; that is to say, by sending their ships to a port of England, loading them with British manufactures, and carrying them on to China? — There is none; private adventurers might do that, un- doubtedly. S628rt. Can you state why this having been a profitable trade in the hands of the Americans, it might not continue to be so in the hands of the Dutch? — It might undoubtedly be so, I should suppose. It is a singular spectacle to see the Americans do that which tiie Dutch have the same means of doing, if they had the same enterprize and ability for the trade. 3629a. Do you not conceive that the Americans succeed in the trade from their being able to buy English manufactures for exportation to China, and that the Dutch f;iil, because they have not permission to do the same ? — I certainly conceive that the Americans succeed for that reason, when put into competition with the Dutch company, which cannot buy English manufac- tures: but there is no reason why the Dutch private adventurers should not carry on a trade in the same way as the Americans, excepting the want of enterprize. 3630fl. Is not there much more energy in the American character than in the Dutch character? — I believe that is a fact which is historically re- cognized, :i63\a. AVhcreas the Dutch used formerly to have a large share of tlie carrying trade of the world, is not it the tact at present that the trade has fallen SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. i45 fallen into the hands of the English and the Americans ? — The Dutch trade 23 March 1830. has fallen off" altogether. 363^a. Is it considered that the interference of the King of the Nether- " ' £si/ ' lands as a private merchant is prejudicial to the commercial interests of the country ? — It is deprecated by the whole nation. o633a. Is it to be understood, that the injury which has been done to the Dutch trade by the Dutch Trading Company has been in consequence of their great command of capital, or in consequence of their exclusive privi- leges? — From both ; from the government favouring them, giving them the preference of government freights and the preference of their contracts, and from their great command of capital, coming into the market with such large quantities of goods, witli sales, for instance, of 100,000 bags of coffee at once, and telling the trade that there will be such sales at regular times, in autumn and in spring, so that the private merchants have little chance with the buyers in the mean time, and the company also trading at a loss to themselves. 3634^. Do 3'ou conceive that regular sales of that description, of a very large amount of goods, are injurious to the trading concerns of the country in that particular article ? — It has interfered with the private trade of indi- vidual merchants in Holland. 3635a. Does not such a system tend, at one period, to depress prices un- naturally, and at anotiicr time to raise them unnaturally ? — It prevents the holders of small quantities of property from making sales: buyers of course waiting till the larger quantities come into the market, there is an inactivity in the market till the larger sales come on. 3636«. Has it a tendency to derange commercial speculation ? — It has ap- peared so in Holland. 3637a. Do the Dutch Company sell their teas by auction ? — They sell their teas by auction, and at fixed periods, as they do other goods, in spring and autumn ; their spring sale is now taking place ; they have put up two cargoes this Spring, 17,000 quarter-chests, three or four days ago. 3G3Sa. Does much remain unsold at those auctions- — Generally not; the company have a habit, however, of buying in. The general traders would prefer that, as they have fixed sales, they should sell outright all they put up : they think it is more injurious for them to sell a portion, and then keep back the rest. 3639a. Is there any fixed rate of advance in the bidding at the auction ? — No. 3640a. Do you conceive that the Netherlands would derive any advan- tage, if a complete monopoly of the supply of tea to that country were given to the Dutch Company? — They would have the prices considerably aug- mented ; it would be of advantage to the Company only. 364]rt. AVould it be of advantage to the consumers in Holland ? — Cer- 3 L 2 tainly 446 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS r 23 March 1830. tainly not. They get it cheaper from the competition of the Americans^ .T7~ and they imagine that they would get it cheaper still from that of the English, ¥"^*^^^^'^' on account of the funds which the English have lying at Canton, seeking remittance. 3G42a. What is the nature of the auction in Holland by which it is sold ? — The Trading Company sell in lots of twenty quarter-chests. S643fl. Is the bidding by the fall or by the rise ? — By the rise. The Trading Company have introduced new conditions of trade, which are not agreeable to private merchants. 3644ff. Are they bound by law to put up their teas at the cost price ? — They are not bound to any thing of that nature. 3645/7. Have you had much means of communication with persons who have been to China? — Of course I have in Holland, with English and others. 3646a. Have you ever heard them express any opinion as to the difficulty of transacting business in the port of Canton ? — I never heard of the Dutch meeting with any difficulty. The English whom I have seen, who were ac- quainted with Canton, have been gentlemen from Java chieflv, not trading to Canton particularly; but I never heard from the Dutch of their meeting with any difficulty. I am informed by the gentleman whose brother is the tea-taster to the Dutch Company,, that at first they did not get such good teas as the Americans, but that they can now get equally good teas with the Americans. 36 l-7r/. Have they any establishment at Canton now? — They send tlieir tea-taster there when they send their ships out, otherwise they take him back again to Java during the interval that the ships are away. 3648rt. Have they any consul or factory there? — I am not informed. I should think not, since they take the individual mentioned back to Java each season. 3649a. Do you know the average number of months that it takes to go from Holland to Canton ? — They generally reckon that the ships that go one year come back the next; that is, as they send no sliips this year, that there will be no Dutch tea next year. Jovis, 25° die Martii, 1830. JOHN CRAWFURD, Esq. called in, and examined. '" ^ ' SChWa. You are residing here at present as agent to certain parties at John Crmifurd Calcutta? — I was appointed agent to the inhabitants of Calcutta without J'sq. solicitation : 1 am now iulfilling my duty as their parliamentary agent. 36.; la. Is SELECT COMMITTEE ok the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 447 36,51<7. Is there a salary attached to it? — Tliere is a very handsome one. 25 March 183C. SGSQa. To what amount? — £1,500 a year, besides extra expenses, which I do not draw. I tliink the salary too much, and I have proposed to my •''^'"* Crav-Jtml, constituents that it shouM be reduced. **' 3Q5Sa. Had they previously had a parliamentary agent in this country ? — They never had : I am the first. 36546-. Is that appointment exclusive of the question now depending be- fore tlie House of Commons? — It has no view to the mercantile pursuits of my constituents ; it is for political questions only. 3Q55a. Do you represent the residents of Calcutta for any thing that you think affects their interests? — 1 represent the inhabitants of Calcutta gene- rally, whether Europeans or natives. 3G56<7. What number of inhabitants have authorized you to act as their agent ? — The majority. 3657«. Do you mean about 300,000 people ? — When I say the majority of the inhabitants of Calcutta, I wish to be understood as having stated the majority of those who thought proper to express their opinions, having had an opportunity of doing so. With respect to having stated that it was a ma- jority of half a million of people, or any such number, I never thought of saying so. 3G58fl. Are the Committee to understand that you were appointed by a majority of the inhabitants of Calcutta, as agent lor them in any matters that might concern their political interests in India, and not as regarded the trade between England and Ciiina ? — I have no recollection whatever of any mention being made in my instructions, public or confidential, of the Ciiina question ; but I have no doubt that the China question is also em- braced in them, and I will state my reason tor saying so. There has been sent to me a printed requisition to the sheriff" of Calcutta, to which I think there are llC signatures of persons of all parties, requesting that a meeting might be called for the purpose of petitioning both Houses of Parliament to remove all restrictions from the India and China trade. The petitions, in all probability, will soon be sent to me, and I shall then act as the agent of the inhabitants of Calcutta, as far as regards the China trade as well as the Indian trade. 3659^. What is the date of that requisition ? — To the best of my recol- lection the 29Lh of Noveml)er : the meeting is called for the 15th of De- cember. Of course, there can be no account of snch a meeting yet, as the ship that brought this account liait an unusually rapid passage. 36G0a. Were your instructions transmittetl to you, or did you receive them at Calcutta?— They were transmitted to me long after I left Calcutta. I begagain, with great respect, to assure the Committee that I have no object whatever in concealment } I wish that every thing should be known that I am concerned in. 366la. You 448 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 2.5 Mardi 1830. 366la. You have resided in different parts of the east? — I resided in various parts of the east for about nineteen years. Vsq ' 3662a. Will you state where? — In the Upper Provinces of the Bengal Presidency for about five years, in Calcutta for a time, probably in all amounting to about one year ; in Prince of Wales' Island or Penang about three years, and in Java about six years. 1 went on a mission afterwards to Siam and Cochin China, which occupied sometliing more than one year. I resided next as a resident of Sincapore about three years ; and from thence I proceeded to the Burman country. I was appointed commissioner by the Governor-general in the Burman territory ; I went afterwards as envoy from the Governor-general to the court of Avaj after which I returned to Cal. cutta, and eventually to Europe. 36G3a. Have not you visited some of the other islands ■ — I visited some of the other islands, but never resided in them ; I visited the islands of Bali and Celebes. SGGi^a. Have you ever been in China ? — I have not. 366,5a. Have you had much intercourse with the Chinese settlers in the countries adjacent? — I have. 3666a. Where were they residing? — They reside in almost every country that is adjacent to China. 8667a. Had you an opportunity of seeing them in those places? — I had an opportunity of seeing them in Prince of Wales' Island, Java, Sincapore, Siam, Cochin China, and a tew in the Burman country during my mission to the court of Ava. 366Sa. Can you furnish the Committee with any history of the Chinese emigrants settled in the neighbourhood of China, and an account of the nature of their emigrations? — 1 drew up a statement of that description, which I have here. 3669a. What do you make the number of Chinese emigrants settled in the countries adjacent to Cliina? — The estimate is a very rough one of course, from the very nature of the subject. I make them between 700,000 or 800,000. The greater number of them are settled in Siam and Cochin China, not in the islands. 3670a. From your intercourse with those Chinese, do you conceive them to be an intelligent, active, and commercial people ? — Eminently so. They are a very industrious people in every way ; they are a business-like people; their manners more resemble Europeans in that part of their character than they do those of Asiatic nations. 3671^7. In industry and intelligence do you conceive them to be superior to other Asiatic nations? — For all useful and jiractical purposes I think they are. There are perhaps a few points in which they are inferior to one or two other Asiatic nations, but those points are of very little moment. S672a. Have SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 419 S&Tia. Have you prepared a Statement for the information of the Com- 25 March 1H30. mittee upon the subject of the Chinese emigrations ? — I have. , . ~ — ^ i^ •> ° John Crawjurd, 3673fl. Will you have the goodness to read it ? Esq. \The -dlness read the same, as Jhllows :'] " A VIEW of the EMIGRATIONS of the CHINESE to the various Countries adjacent to China. " The emigrations of the Chinese take place from the same provinces which conduct the foreign trade, viz. Canton, FokicMi, Chekicii, and Kiannan. Emigrations from the two latter, however, are not frequent, and seem to be confined to Tonquin and the PhiHppine Islands. The emigrants direct their course to every country in the neighbourfiood of China where there is any probability of finding employment and protection ; in some countries, however, they are excluded or restrained from political motives, and in others, distance or want of room affords them no encouragement to settle. Like the European nations, they are excluded altogether from settling in Japan, on political grounds ; the government of Cochin China also affords them no great encouragement, from the same reason, and the Dutch and Spanish governments of Java and the Philippines have always looked upon them with a considerable share of suspicion. Distance, but above all, the existence of a dense and comparatively indus- trious population, excludes them from the British dominions in Hindustan, where we find only a few shoemakers and other artisans, and tliese confined to the towns of Calcutta, Madras, and Bombay. A few, I understand, have lately proceeded to the Mauritius. " Every emigrant who leaves China does so with the intention of returning to it, altliough comparatively few are able to accomplish this object. The expense of emi- gration to the countries to which the Chinese usually resort amounts but to a mere trifle. The passage-money in a Chinese junk from Canton to Sincapore is but six Spanish dollars ; and from Fokien but nine. Even these slender sums, however, are commonly paid from the fruits of the emigrant's labour on his arrival, and are seldom paid in advance. The emigrants, I think, are invariably of the labouring classes, and their whole equipment for the voyage, in ordinary cases, consists of little else than the coat on their backs, a bundle of old clothes, and a dirty mat and pillow to sleep on. They no sooner land than their condition is prodigiously improved : they meet their country- men, and probably their friends or relatives ; they find immediate employment in a congenial climate, and in countries where the wages of labour are perhaps three times as high as in China, and the necessaries of life perhaps by one-half cheaper. " The Chinese are not only intellectually, but physically, superior to the nations and tribes among whom tbey settle. A Chinese is at least two inches taller than a Siamese, and by three inches tidier than a Cochin Cliinese, a Malay, or a Javanese, and his frame is proportionally strong and well built. Their superiority in personal skill, dexterity, and ingenuity, are still greater. All this is evinced in a very satisfactory manner, by the simple criterion of the comparative rates of wages of the ditlereut classes of inhabitants or sojourners at any given place where they all meet. At Sinca- pore, for example, the wages of ordinary labour for the different classes of labourers are as follow : a C-hinese, eight dollars a montli ; a native of the Coromandel coast, six dollars ; and a Malay, four ; nialcing the work of the Chinese by one-third better than that of the first, and by 100 per cent, better than that of the second. When skill and 4o0 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 25 March 1830. and dexterity are implied, the difference is of course wider ; a Chinese house-carpenter will earn twelve dollars a month, while an Indian will earn no more than seven, and a John Crairfurd, jNIalayan thatchcr or wood-cutter (for among this class there are no caipenters) , but Esq. five. " The different classes of Chinese settlers not only live apart, and keep distinct from the settlers of other nations, but also from each other. There is a very wide difierence between the character, habits, and manners of the Chinese settlers, according to the parts of China from which they proceed. The natives of Fokien have a claim to a higher tone of cliaracfer than any of the rest. Among the emigrants from the province of Canton there are three classes, i'*;:. those from the to^\ n of Canton antl its neighbourhood ; the natives of Macao anil other islands in the river ; and the natives of some mountainous districts of the same province. The first of these, besides being addicted to mercantile pursuits, are the best artisans, and are much disposed to enter into mining speculations. It is they who are chiefly engaged in working the silver-mines of Touquin, the gold-mines of Borneo and the Malay peninsida, and the tin-mines of the latter country and of Banca. The Chinese of Macao and the other islands are held in very little repute among the rest of their countrymen ; but the third class, who are numerous, are the lowest in rank. Their most frequent employment is that of fishermen and mariners ; and it is from among tlieir ranks that European shipping, when in want, have occasionally received hands to assist in their navigation. Of all the Chinese these are the most noisy and unmlv. There is still another class of Chinese, the settlers in the Burman dominions, who differ vei-y remarkably from all that I have just enumerated. With the exception . of a small number of emigrants from the province of Canton, who find their way to Ava by sea, these are all from the province of Yunan, and in point of industry and intelligence seemed, as far as I could judge, nuich inferior to the colonists from Canton and Fokien. From all these, again, the mixed races are to be distinguished by their superior knowledge of the language, manners, and customs of the countries in which they reside, and by some inferiority in industry and enterprise. It is from this class that European merchants are supplied vv ith brokers, money-counters, &c., and they are seldom to be seen in the condition of day-labourers or artisans. The Cliinese settlers, of what- . ever class, engage with much eagerness in agricultural employments ; seldom, however, when they can avoid it, as mere day-labourers. They conduct almost exclusively the cultivation and manufacture of the catechu or terra japonica in the Straits of Malacca, the pe{)per cultivation of Slam, and the culture of the cane and manulacture of sugar in Java, Siam, antl the Philippines. Differing nraterially from each other in manners, habits, and almost always in language or dialect, and entertaining towards each other provincial prejudices and ajitipathies, broils and quarrels, sometimes even attended with bloodshed, frequently break out among them. These are occasionally subjects of embarrassment in the European settlements, the authorities of uhieh have never, I am persuaded, any thing to a|)prehejid from their combination or resistance ; and I may add, that of all the Asiatic settlers in our eastern settlements, the Chinese are the most obedient to the laws, and notwithstanding the suj)erior amount of their property, and even of their numbers, afford the least employment to the courts of justice. The Chinese population settled in the various countries adjacent to China, may be roughly estimated ^s follows : The Philippine Islands 1.5,000 Borneo 120,000 Java 45,000 The Dutch settlement of Rhio, Straits of Malacca 1S,(H)0 .Sincapore < i 6,'JOO CaiTied forward 204,,-_>00 SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 451 25 March 1830. Cm II Esq. Brou<,>^ht forward 204,200 Malacca 2,000 /-.„„„./•„,.,; Penang 8,500 •^'''"' CrmrfuuL Malayan Peninsula 40,000 Siam 440,(00 Cochin China 15,000 Tonquin 25,000 Total 734,700 '■'■ The population mentioned here is of a peculiar description, consistin2() to upwards of 5, .500. The annual number of emigrants which arrive in Siam « as rated to me when 1 was in that country at 7,000. A single junk has been known to bring 1,200 passengers ; indeed I have myself seen one bring 900 to Sincapore. The number who return to China is considerable, but very small indeed in comparison to the arrivals. Even of these the sfreater number come back again ; and I have known men ... . .11 of property, who have visited China and returned with titles. 3674fl. Have you had that kind of communication and conversations with the Chinese, in any of the different parts where you have met them, as to be able to form any opinion how far the Chinese in their own country are to be considered a commercial people ? — Upon that subject, never having been in China, I can offer no decided opinion ; but my conviction is, that there is very little difference between them ; and the emigrants I should, probably, upon the whole, be disposed to think would be found superior to those they left behind them, as the most active spirits chiefly wouUl go abroad. No man leaves China but an able-bodied man, and no man tiiat has not a certain portion of spirit and enterprize will quit the country. 3(i75fl. Have you any means of furnishing the Committee wilii a view of the foreign trade of China carried on in junks? — I have also prepared a 3 M statement 452 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 25 March 1830. statement upon that subject. I beg to say, with respect to this and the ~:; other statement I gave in, that they are entirely the result of my own o n rmrjurd, pgj-sonal inquiry, chiefly derived from the Chinese themselves. I commu- nicated with them through the medium of the Malay language, which I understand tolerably well. I was in the habit of always employing a couple of interpreters when I was Resident at Sincapore, and when the Chinese commanders of vessels and others, not understanding the Malay language, called upon me, I transacted business with them generally through the medium of these persons. Chinese who reside any time in the Malayan countries, conunonly make themselves in some measure acquainted with the Malay language, and there is no great difficulty in communicating with these without the aid of an interpreter. SQ'jGa. Will you have the goodness to read the statement you have pre- pared on this subject. [^The xvitness read the same, as follows t^ " Native Foreign Trade of China. " The principal part of the junk trade is carried on by the four contiguous provinces of Canton, Fokien, Chekiang, and Kiannan. No foreion trade is permitted with the island of Formosa, and I have no means of describing the extent of the traffic which may be conducted between China, Corea, and the Luchew Islands. The following are the countries with which China carries on a trade in junks, viz. Japan, the Philippines, the Sooloo Islands, Celebes, the Moluccas, Borneo, Java, Sumatra, Sincapore, Rhio, the east coast of the Malayan Peninsula, Siam, Cochin China, Cambodia, and Tonquin. The ports of China at which this trade is con- ducted are Canton, Tchao-tcheou, Nomhong, Hoei-tcheou, S\i-heni,r, Kongmoon, Changlim, and Hainan, in the province of Canton; Amoy and Chinchew, in tlie proviwce of Fokien ; Ningpo and Siang-hai, in the province of Tchekiaii ; ami Soutcheon, in the province of Kiannan. The following may be looked upon as an approximation to tlie number of junks carrying on trade witli tlie dirterent places already enumerated, viz. Junks. Japan, 10 junks, two voyages "20 Pliilippine Islands I;? Soo-loo Lslands 4 Celebes 2 '■ Borneo 13 .lava 7 Sumatra 10 Sincapore H Kliio 1 liast C'oast of Malay Peninsula Siam ." SO Cochin China 20 Cambodia Tunquin , 20 Total 222 ■• This SELECT COMMITTEE or the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 453 " This statement does not include a great number of small junks belonginr^ to the Oj March 1830 island of Hainan, which carry on trade with 'I'onquin, Coeliiu CJhiiia, Cambodia, " " Siani, and Sincapore. Those for Siam amount yearly to about iifty, and for the j^^/jj^ Crawfurd Cochin Chinese dominions to about forty-three; these alone would Ijrini,"- the total iiso" number of vessels carryini;- on a direct trade between China and foreign countries to 307. The trade with Japan is confined to the port of Ninypo, in Chekian-,', and expressly limited to ten vessels ; but as tlie distance from Nani>a«aki is a voyai^e of no more than four days, it is performed twice a year. With the exception of this branch of trade the foreign intercourse of the two provinces of Chekian and Kiannan, which are famous for tiie production of raw silk, teas, and nankeens, is confined to the Philippine Islands,* Tonquin, Cochin China, Cambodia, and Siam, and none of this class of vessels, that I am aware of, have ever found their way to the western parts of the Indian Archipelago. The number of these trading with Siam is twenty- four, all of considerable size ; those trading with the Cochin Chinese dominions, sixteen, also of considerable size ; and those trading with the Philippines, five, mak- ing in all forty-five, of which the average burden does not fall short of 17,000 tons. I am the more particular in describing this branch of the Chinese commerce, as we do not ourselves, at present, partake of it, and as we possess no direct means of ob- taining information in regard to it. All the junks carrying on this trade with Siam are owned in the latter country and not in China, and I am not sure how far it may not also be so in the other cases. I do not doubt but that a similar commerce will, in the event of a free trade, extend to Sincapore, and that through tliis chan- nel may eventually be obtained the green teas of Kiannan, and the raw silks of Chekiang. " Besides the jimks now described there is another mmicrous class, which may be denominated the colonial shipping of the Chinese. Wherever the Chinese are settled in any numbers, junks of this description are to be found, such as in Java, Sumatra, the Straits of Malacca, &:c. ; but the largest commerce of this description is conducted from the Cochin Chinese dominions, but especially from Siam, where the number was estimated to me at 200. Several jiniks of this description from the latter country come annually to Sincapore, of which the burden is not less than from 300 to 400 tons. " The junks which trade between China and the adjacent countries are some of them owned and built in China, but a considerable number also in the latter coun- tries, particularly in Siam and Cochin China, Of those carrying on the Siamese trade, indeed, no less than eighty-one out of the eighty-nine, of considerable size, were represented to me as being built and owned in Siam. The small j\uiks, how- ever, carrying on the trade of Hainan, are all built and owned in China. " The junks, whether colonial or trading direct with China, vary in burden from 2,000 peculs to 15,000, or carry of dead weight from about 120 to saved. " The construction and rigging of a Chinese junk may be looked upon as her proper registry, and tiiey are a very etfectual one; lor (he least devi;^tion from them would subject her at once to i'oreigu cliarges and to foreign duties, anil to all kinds of suspicion. The colonial junks, which are of nuu-e ct)nuiiidiou.s form and outfit, would, if visiting China, be subjected to tile same duties as foreign vessels Junks built in Siam, or any oth;T adjacent country, if constructed and fitted out after the customary model, are admitted to trade to China upon the same terms as those built and owned in the country. If any j)art of the crew consist of Siamese, Cochin Chi- nese, or other foreigners, tln^ lattei' are admitted only at the port of Canton ; and if found in any other ))art of China \\()uld be seized and taken up by the police', ex- actly in the same manner as il' they weie Eurojieans. The native trade of China , conducted witii foreign countries, is not a clandestine C(nnmerce, \iiiackno\\letlgf- roy SELECT COMMITTEE or i iii: HOUSE OF COMMONS. ^55 roy or governor of the province, who on petition decides the number of junks tliat 25 Mnrcii 1830. shall be allowed to en<;ii^re in it, and even enumerates tlie articles which it shall bo leo-al to export and import. At every jjort also, where such a forei;,^! trade is John ( rfivjitrd, sanctioned, there is a hong or body of security merchants, as at Canton ; a fact ii'.w. which .shows clearly enough that this institution is parcel of the laws or customs of China, and not a peculiar restraint imposed upon the intercour.se witii Euro- peans. " The Chinese Junks, properly constructetl, pay no measurement duty, and no cumshavv or present ; duties, however, are paid upon goods exported and imjjorted, which seem, however, to dither at the different provinces. They are highest at Amoy, and lowest in the island of Hainan. The Chinese traders of Siam informed me that they carried on the fairest and easiest trade, subject to the fewest restrictions, in the ports of Ningpo and Sianghai in Chekiaiig, and SoiK-hon in Kiamian. Great dex- terity seems every where to be exercised by the Chinese in evadhig the duties. One practice which is very often followed, will atl'ord a good example of this. 'J'he coasting trade of China is nearly free from all duties and other imposts. The mer- chant takes advantage of this, an552 1,182,000 NOTE. 460 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 25 March 1830. John Crawfurd, Esq. NOTE. The accompanyiHg Table is chiefly compiled from the following authorities, vtz. from a " Statistical View of China, extracted from original documents by M. Klaproth," contained in the Appendix to Timkowskie's Travels, London, 18"27; from Du Halde's China; from the last edition of Grosier's China, 7 vols. 8vo. Paris, 1818; and from the Tables contained in a work, entitled, Histoire de la Chine, &c, &c. by M. Le Clerc, Besan9on, \777- A few particulars are derived from personal information. Provinces. The ancient division of China is into fifteen provinces ; but two of the largest, Kiannan andHoukouan, have, of late years, been subdivided each into two, making the whole seventeen. The table is according to the old division. Travelling Distance of Provincial Cajntals from Pekin, The distance in the original documents is given in Chinese lis, a measure of 1,8972 English feet, and taken from the Imperial Civil Kalendar. This is calculated from a common map of China ; and all modern maps of that country are known to be drawn from one original, that of the Jesuits. The Chinese territory extends from about the •20th to the 40th degree of north latitude ; but the finest parts of it are embraced in the space which lies between the 28th and 38th degrees, whether in respect to soil, climate, or position. Population. The document which furnished the materials for the population is the new edition of 1790, of the work called the "Great Imperial Geography." The population of China has usually been supposed in Europe to be extravagantly estimated ; but when the vast extent of the empire is considered, it is certain that the country is more under than overpeopled. This will appear clear enough from the following com- parison with the population of some other countries. China, per square mile 103 Old British Possessions in Bengal 240 Hindustan throughout 104 Austrian Dominions 110 France 1G4 England 222 By casting the eye over the Table, it will appear that the population is very un- equally spread over the country. There are, in fact, but four provinces out of tlie fifteen which are densely inhabited, embracing between them little more than a fourth part of the area of the empire, but containing above two-thirds of the popu- lation, and of these three only are remarkable for their populousness. The rest of the empire is, in fact, but scantily inhabited. Much of the surface of China is mountainous and sterile, a fact which has struck all intelligent travellers and vi- sitors. In point of natm'al fertility it is evidently much inferior to all our possessions in Bengal, and even to Hindustan in general, although over the latter country it possesses great advantage, in the number and superiority of its navigable rivers and harbours. The population, as elsewhere, has accumulated in the fertile alluvial plains towards the dclxmchements of the great rivers, along the borders of lakes, and in the neighbourhood of the creeks, bays, and harbours, with which some parts of the coast a])pear to be so remarkably indented. Two of (he most populous, as well as industrious and civilized provinces, Kiannan and Cliekiun, besides abound- ing SELECT COMMITTEE of thz HOUSE OF COMMONS. 461 ing- in lakes and inlets of the sea, contain the debou-chementg of the two <»reat rrrer< 25 ^larch 1830. of China, and it is here that the mass of the population appears to be concentrated. — — Shanton, besides containing man}- harbours and lakes, is intersected by the Imperial Jokn Cratcfttrrf. Canal : and Houkouan, althoug^h a central province, contains extensive lakes, and L- Ef>q. intersected by one of the large rivers, which appears to pass throtig^h a wide plain uninterrupted by mountains. Two of the provinces best known to us. Canton and Fokien, are so remarkably mountainous, that they seem always to have relied upon their neig^hbourhoods f jr supplies of com, the first beins- furnished from the nei^^hbouring province to the westward of it, and recently from the Philipjjine Islands, and the las"t from the fertile and under-peopled island of Formosa. 1 have no doubt, however, that the popidatioii of the province of Canton is for the present times much underrated, and that throush means of the foreign trade it has ereatly augmented within the fort}- years since the census was taken. By the editors of the Canton Register, I perceive that it is considered to be as popidous as Scotland, or to contain about two millions and a half of inliabitants, which would ifive tiveutv-five instead of fifteen inhabitants to the square mile. The extent of the wtiods in the province of Canton, and the neigh- bouring: one of Konansi, is indicated by the laige amount of two articles of the exports of China to foreign parts, cassia and camphor, both of which are productions of the forest. Canton, for example, produces yearly not much less than 6,000 peculs of the latter article, or about S00,000 lbs. weight. The frequent presence of the metals in the north-western provinces indicates a mountainous coimtry, a primitive formation, and a territory not distinguished for fertilirr. This, indeed, is well known to be the case, particularly with the great province of Yunnan. On the north-west frontier the coun- try is still more sterile ; and here occurs the great province of Shensi, with less than two inhabitants to a square nule. This part of the coTmtrv is not only destitute of rivers, but liable to drouHhts, and to the depredations of locusts. Rererme. The account of the revenue is taken from the Imperial Civil Kalendar, published quarterly at Pekin. The statement here sriven by M. Klaproth seems to be the same a-s that which has been translated by Mr. Huttmann, the secretarr of the Roval Asiatic Society, and refers to as late a period as the year 1S14. The Chinese revenue consists of a land-tax, partly levied in money and partly in kind, customs, and transit duties, a monopoly of salt, licenses of pawnbrokers, and other miscellaneous taxes, a tax levied on coals at the mine, &c. M. Klaproth gives the total amount of the revenue levied in money at a simi which is equal, tatins the Chinese ounce at 6j., to i?'10,OCt5,250, and Mr. Huttmann at ir'l 0,8 18,367: adding to the first the value of the tax in com, we have the sum of £11,649,912 given in the table. Accordincr to this view, the taxes paid by one hundred and forty-one millions of Chinese do not Hreatly exceed one-half of what is paid by ninety millions of British subjects in India, much inferior to them in industrj- and civilization. The tax per head in China is l=s. 7f'i.; in the British pos- sessions in India it is 4*. 8^c/.* The land-tax in China, the principal one, is said to be fixed and permanent ; and indeed the moderation of the taxes throughout is, in all pro- babiHty, the principal element in the good g-ovemmait of the Chinese : for that good government exists, in a relative degree, is sufficiently indicated by the superiority of the people in all useful industry to every other Asiatic nation. Military Force. One- third of the military force of China is said to exist only on the muster-rolls. * SUt. — East-India Annual Revenue Accounts; printed May, 1S28. 3X2 Whether 462 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 25 Marcli 1830. Whether this be the case or not, no doubt the whole is a burden upon the people and — — g^overnment. The amount is not so exorbitant as mig^ht be supposed, being- but as one John Crau'furd, to 119 to the whole population ; whereas the army of Russia, the country that most Esq. resembles China, is as one to 75. 3fi87a. You have stated that China Proper extends from the 20th degree of latitude to the 'tOth : are there not territories dependent upon China which extend much farther north than that ? — Yes ; there is an estimate of the population of those territories in the table, but it is little better than conjecture. 3688ff. Will you state to what degree of latitude the territories dependent upon China reach? — I cannot ; I should say, probably, to the 45th or 47th degree. Pekin itself is nearly in the latitude of 40. 3C89«. Have you paid particular attention to the tea trade ? — Yes, I have paid a good deal of attention to it. 3690ff. Will you state the result of your inquiries respecting the cultiva- tion of tea? — Having never been in China, I have never seen the tea-plant cultivated properly as it ought to be : I have seen the tea-plant growing in Cochin China only. 3691«. In what degrees of latitude is it generally grown ? — It will grow any where ; but it will make very bad tea in warm climates. — It is a very vigorous, hardy plant : I have seen it live upon the very Equator, or close to it ; and it grows again as far as the 45th degree of latitude. 3692a. Within what degrees of latitude do you think it could be grown, so as to produce a good article of commerce ? — One can judge only from what is known to take place in China. I believe good tea is confined generally to the climate probably extending from 9.5 to 32 or 33 degrees. 3693«. Do you understand that the tea-plant is cultivated in most of the provinces of China? — There is no doubt it is. I know it to be cultivated in the province of Yannen, which is the most westernly province of C'hina, because I have seen it brougiit in considerable quantities to Ava ; and it was stated to be the product of that province. 369 la. Is it cultivated in any other country besides China? — It is culti- vated in Japan, in Cochin China, and in Tonquin. 3695«, Is any of the tea that is grown out of China as good as that which is the genuine China tea? — All other tea that 1 iiave seen is sufficiently bad. 1 take it that a great deal of skill and industry is necessary to grow tea. I should think that the vine is almost a complete parallel with the tea-plant. The tea is known to be botanically one species, so is tiie vine ; and, I believe, every distinction that arises between green tea and black tea to be owing to climate, soil, and cultivation. The places that produce fine teas are F.s(/. SELECT COM>IITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 4G.3 are like the spots which produce fine wines, from all accounts exceedingly 2.") March 1830 limited ; the places that produce coarse teas are very widely spread. SQ)9Gti. Is the coarse tea in general consumption throughout China? — ' "'" /-"o '"' From all I have been able to ascertain, it is in very general cultivation and general consumption. It could not be generally consumed utiless it were generally cultivated. The ])eople are poor, and could not afford to use it if it were not cultivated upon the very spot where it is consumed. 3697a. Do the lower orders in China drink tea ? — I have understood universally. Those that reside in foreign countries are perpetually sipping tea. I recollect a Hindoo sepoy once called my attention to some Chinese who were at work, telling me, that those people never drank water, that they always drank tea ; that was the explanation he gave. The matter ap- peared, of course, strange to one of a people who themselves hardly ever drank any thing but water. 3698a. Can you state the description of tea that is in common use amongst the lower class of Chinese; is it boiiea or congo? — Those are European names. I believe I have understood from the Chinese, who have been in the tea districts, that the name of bohea, particularly, is that of a certain place, in which some of the finest black tea that is exported is grown; but I think it may be inferred from the statement I have drawn up, that the tea we name bohea is generally consumed in Cliina. I have a comparative statement of the prices of new and old tea in Canton in season in 1S2S-9 ; I find that the bohea tea is precisely of the same price in the month of May, when out of season, that it is in the month of November, in season ; that there is not the least variation in the price, whereas there is an immense variation in the prices of all the other kinds ; particularly in those dealt in by Europeans, and especially in the green teas. 3099^/. Do you infer that the teas consumed in China by the Chinese themselves are black teas? — I understand them to be universally black. 3700a. And the great bulk to be of an inferior description ? — And the great bulk to be of an inferior description, of course. 3701a. Have you recently looked at the qualities of teas imported into this country, and can you state the proportion which the inferior descriptions of tea bear to the superior ? — I have made a calculation of that, but I have it not by me. I have a statement of the proportions of the higher classes of tea in America and in this country. Tea is an article of general con- sumption in this coinitry ; it is not so to so great a degree in America. There is a larger proportion of good tea consumed in America than there is in this country, and a much larger proportion of inferior tea is consumed in this country. 3702a. Is it a fact that the great bulk of the imports of teas for the Eng- lish market consists of inferior description of tea.' — The great bulk of the tea consists of congo ; I think, probably, 20,000,000 out of 30,000,000. 3703«. Are 464 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 2.> March 1830 3703fl. Are you of opinion that the quantity of fine teas required for the — ; — market of Europe might be augmented in China? — I should think not very John ( rawfurd, materially. The kinds that are now produced, I should think, much rc- ^^ semble in production some of the finer wines. There are, as is well known, some particular wines of which the quantity cannot be much augmented without deterioration of quahty. But that other fine teas, not at present known to us, may be discovered, I have no doubt, because there are evi- dently many fine teas that do not reach us ; for example, the teas sent to Russia are obviously a different description of tea altogether from those that we receive, and the produce apparently of other provinces. 37040. Do you know what provinces ? — No ; I suspect some of the cen- tral provinces. 3705a, Is that of a different description from what we import? — Yes, it differs from it materially ; it is evidently another production ; it differs from it as much as claret does from burgundy. 370Ca. Are you aware whether fine tea is now produced in some of the provinces of China which have no export to Europe ? — I have been told so by Chinese, and the fact is confirmed by the most authentic works I have read. 3707^. What are those provinces ? — I understand there is very fine tea " produced in Yunnan and Honkonang. 3708a. What kind of tea is produced in Cochin China ? — Very inferior tea indeed; it is a large-leafed tea; very little care seems to be taken in the cultivation, and very little also in the preparation. The Cochin Chinese do not infuse, but boil it. The tea, it may be remarked, seems to be a peculiar plant, for the larger the leaf and the older, the less strength and flavour there seems to be in the tea, and the younger the leaf the more delicate and high-flavoured it is. 3709«. Do the better classes in Cochin China consume Chinese tea ? — They do. , 3710a. Is that the case in the Burman empire? — In the Burman empire they consume very little tea, besides what they grow themselves. This last, although a genuine tea botanically, is a peculiar variety. The Burmese mix it with oil of seasimiim and garlic, and give it to their guests as a token of welcome. There is a very large consumption of it, and it is a considerable branch of trade. 371 Ifl. Can you furnish the Committee with any information respecting the Russian tea-trade? — When I resided at Brussels, about eight or nine months ago, a Belgian gentleman of rank oft'ered to furnish me with answers to any queries I might put upon the subject. 3712a. Was he engaged in commerce ? — He was not engaged in com- merce ; but he wrote to a gentleman at St. Petersburgh who was, and I have here SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. ^65 here a translation of the replies of the latter to the questions which 1 pre- '^^ Marcii 1830. * T^Tii 111 11 '^ohn Craivfurtt, 3713a. Will you have the goodness to read them. £.^, {The witness read the same, as follows.'] " What kinds of tea are imported from China to Kiachta ? None but of the first qualities, whether black or green ; but the great importations consist of black, the green being but of slender consumption in Russia. " What are the prices at Kiachta of low, middling, and first qualities ? As the inferior qualities are not imported into Russia, as has been already seen, the prices cannot consequently be annexed. The consumption has a determination towards the first qualities, on account of the duty being the same for all kinds, without distinction of colour or quality. Thus, a pound of very inferior tea pays exactly the same custom- house duty as the most select which is imported. As to the price of the first qualities, it is difficult to determine it exactly, because the tea is always taken in barter against Russian and other productions, principally however Russian. This barter, which is entirely in the hands of the Russian merchants, is an obstacle to obtaining, unless very imperfectly, the real price of teas at Kiachta. This matter, in fact, is made a secret with the merchants. However, according to the information which I have obtained, the price of black or green tea may be commonly estimated at about three paper rubles the Russian lb. " What are the prices of tea at St. Petersburgh? The answer made to the first question is equally applicable here, as far as relates to the inferior qualities, of which the price is not known at St. Petersburgh. On the other hand, as in Russia black teas are in more request than green, they bear the same price at Petersburgh and Mos- cow, where the trade is principally conducted ; both kinds are commonly sold wholesale at from eight to nine paper rubles the Russian pound. The importation duty of three paper rubles, charges and profits included. " Are the teas imported at Kiachta the produce of the provinces of Kiannan and Fokien ? No ; they come from the centre of China. " Are the teas consumed in Russia equal, in point of taste and flavour, to those used in England, France and Germany ? They are in all respects superior to those con- sumed in these last countries. In the first place, as has been already said, the higher qualities only are consumed in Russia. In the next, they undergo no sea-voyage — a voyage which causes them to lose much of their strength, freshness, and flavour. To make a comparison, I w'ould say that the black is of a superior equality to the tea known by us under the name of pekoe ; and that the green is better than that which passes under the name of imperial. In use, the difference between the teas coming- sea- wise and those coming by land through Kiachta, is so remarkable, that it is no exaggeration to say that a poimd of the last goes as far as two pounds of the first. The tea which goes under the name of Caravan tea, sells in Germany and France at the rate of 10 or 12 florins the half Netherlands pound. But the importation of this tea into the latter countries is very trifling, and consequently it is difficult to get it genuine. " What is the quantity of tea annually brought to the fair of Kiachta 1 The importations of tea at Kiachta, and at two other places wliich have the privilege of car- rying on the trade, amount yearly to 700,000 pouds, or 28,000,000 of pounds. " What class is it that consumes tea in Russia ? The great mass of the nation uses it, from the lord to the peasant or serf, all who possess a little means. " What i>66 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 25 March 1830. " What is the yearly vahie of the exportations and importations at Kiachta? The value is estimated at 150,000,000 of paper rubles. John Crmifurd, "Can any Russian merchant establish himself at Kiachta? The merchants "?■ carrying on the trade are for the most part Muscovites ; but any Russian may engage in it, paying the corporation tax (droits des guildes). " What are the principal articles disposed of by the Russians to the Chinese ? Among other articles, broad-cloths, velvets, polemites, furs, Italian coral, leather, (jaffs, &c.) " Is there any published work in Russia on the subject of the trade carried on at Kiachta ? The Russian government has a statistical work on the subject, but it is not published." 3714a. What is the value of the paper ruble? — About \0{d. or there- abouts. 3715a. Can you state ^nerally the course of the Russian trade with China, and the mode in which the tea is brought to Europe ? — I understand that it is a very tedious affair ; that when the goods are conveyed by water it takes three years from Kiachta to the eastern frontier of European Russia, and when it comes by land it takes one year. By three years is meant three short summers. For eight or nine months of the year the rivers are frozen up and impassable. I have always thought that this branch of trade much resembled in character the over-land commerce that was carried on before the discovery of the Cape of Good Hope, and that if tea brought sea-wise could be imported into Russia, scarcely a pound of the tea now used would be consumed, fine as it is. The direct commerce between Russia and China would then probably be confined to that part of the Russian empire which is the immediate neighbourhood of China. 37lGa. Do you understand that the Russians experience any diflliculty from being in immediate contact with the Chinese ? — I do not understand that they do. I have read that they have even convicts upon the very frontiers. It is stated that there are always from 1,000 to 1,500 of tliese, and that when they escape they are immediately taken up by the Chinese government, and sent back again, with a request that they should receive a little additional punishment tor polluting the Chinese territory, beyond what they had a right to receive for their flight. 3717a. How long did you reside at Sincapore? — About three years. 37I80. What is the population of Sincapore? — I think between 8,000 and 9,000 when I went there in 18!^3. 3719rt. Were you the Resident there? — I was the Resident at Sincapore, acting under the Governor-general of Bengal. 37C'0fl. When was the settlement first made at Sincapore ? — In 1819. 3721rt. Was it not then in a very rude state? — There were only 200 or 300 Malay inhabitants. 3722a. In \ SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 467 3722a. In what year did you leave it? — In 1825. 25 March 1830. S723a. What was the amount of the population then ? — I have prepared a "";: — statement upon that subject, which I will deliver in. •^''''" £!, [The "witness delivered in the same, which was read as follows:] Population of Sincapore for the Five Years ending 182S. Europeans Native Christians Armenians Arabs Natives of Coromandel ) and Malabar ) Natives of Bengal "i and other parts of > Hindostan ) Siamese Bugis Malays Javanese • Chinese African Negroes Total... 1824. 74 74 16 15 390 366 U851 4,580 3,317 1825. 84 132 9 10 690 226 1,704 5,130 38 3,828 10,683 11,851 1826. Ill 206 18 17 605 384 1,442 5,697 146 4,279 9 12,905 1827- 87 188 19 18 777 244 7 1,242 4,790 267 6,088 5 13,732 1828. 108 198 25 17 1,095 294 1,252 5,336 355 6,210 14,885 Troops, 561 Convicts 388 Increase in five years near 40 per cent. 3724a. Is that number you have stated the entire number of persons on the island, or only of fixed settlers ? — I understand those to be the fixed settlers. 3725a. Did you find a mixed population of that nature difficult to manage ? —By no means ; quite the contrary. 3726a. What is the nature of the harbour of Sincapore ?— It is an open road ; it is not a harbour. But this is a matter of no consequence in those latitudes ; there is never a storm there ; I have never known even a squall continue more than half an hour or three-quarters of an hour, and such squalls are of no great violence. 3 O 3727fl. Is 468 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS 25 March 1830. John Crauif'urd, Esq, 31^'^a. Is it entirely a free port ? — Entirely. The Americans are excluded from it ; but that is in virtue of a treaty we have with the Americans, by which, in consequence of enjoying certain privileges beyond others, at these, they are confined to four principal settlements. Sincapore having become a British possession since the treaty, of course they are not allowed to trade to it. 3728a. Are there any duties at Sincapore ? — No ; nor any port-chargeS whatever. S729a. Do you attribute the increase of the settlement to that circum- stance ? — No doubt, and to its convenient situation. 3730a. Can you give the amount of exports and imports to Sincapore ? — I have a statement of the imports and exports of Sincapore for the years 1826-7 and 1827-8, which appeared in the Sincapore Chronicle of the 11th and 25 th September 1828. [The witness delivered in the same, which was read, as follows:] IMPORTS. The following is a Comparative Statement of the Amount of the Imports of this Settle- ment for the Years 1826-7, and 1827-8. Names of Places. From Calcutta Madras , Bombay England Foreign Europe America China Prince of Wales' Island Malacca Java Isle of France Ceylon Siam Cochin China AchccD Other Native Ports ... 1826-7. Sicca Rupees. 19,53,120^ 4,03,00 U 2,55,700^ 28,35,477 3,69,959 15,13,555 6,72,523 3,06,4383 ll,78,675i 82,122i 10,525 4,61,0061 3,22,790a l,00,932f 31,53,9583 1827-8. 1,36,19,786 Sicca Rupees. 23,16,466^ 4,14,6971 3,76,889i 19,20, 126i 5,41,673 17,92,674^ 8,83,01.5i 2,78,627:^ 22,84,637^ 1,55,951 19,355i 2,75,8191 1,08,4493 2,896A 35,14,7201 Increase. 1,48,85,999.1 Sicca Rupees. 3,63,346 11,696^ 1,21,189 5,41,673 2,79,1191 2,10,1921 11,05,962 73,828f 8,8301 3,60,76U Decrease. 30,76,898.; Sicca Rupees. 9,15,3503 3,69,959 27,811 J 1,85,1863 2,14,341 98,0361 18,10,685,' Total Increase of Imports 1/266,213:J Sa. Rs. Exports. SELECT COiMMITTEE of the HOUSE of COMMONS. 469 EXPORTS. 25 March 1830. The followint^ is a Comparative Statement of the Amount of the Exports of this Settle- John Cmw/unl, ment for the Years 1826-7, and 1827-8. Esq. Names of Places. 1826-7. 1927-8. Increase. Decrease. To Calcutta Sicca Rupees. 20,39,76U 2,78,928-4 5,26, 188i 21,1.5,118 5,74,4574 24,64,815 4,38,3.561 3,69,777i 8,26,96.51 59,900i 3,41, 333i 2,89,856i 26,2 19| 35,31,384 Sicca Rupees. 16,31,3494 11,38,099 1,88,012 27,89,5134 2,72,2301 1.5,19,897 4,80,.556 6,46,1221 10,26,-379 1,19,1221 4,.57,713i 85,576 35,17,4384 Sicca Rupees. 8,59,1704 6, 74,. 3954 Sicca Rupees. 4,08,412 Madras Bombav 3,38,1761 T^^no-land Foreign Eurooe — 3.02.2261 China 42,199i 2,76,3454 1,99,413^ 59,2224 1,16,380 9,44,918 IVf alacca Penanf .lava .., Siani . Cochin China 2,04.280J Acheen 26,219^ Other Native Ports ... 13,9454 1,38,83,062 1,38,72,010 22,27,1264 22,38,1784 Total Decrease of Exports 11,0.52 Sa. lis. 3731cf. Have you got an account of the tea imported into Sincapore ?— -I have an account of the tea exported, but none of the tea imported. It is, however, given in a manner that is not very distinct, and I am not able to give the quantities as they ought to be given. In 1826-7 it was 2,4-62 boxes, and 103 peculs, three chests and 275 packages. In 1827-8, 267 peculs, 10 catties, 1,572 chests, and 80 packages. 3732a. Can you give the Committee any notion of the quantity of tea consumed by the Chinese in Sincapore? — I have an extract of a letter which J received from Sincapore about a month ago, dated tlie 31st of July 1829. I put the question to one of the principal merchants in Sincapore, and this is the answer I received to it : — " I have not been able to get the information about the tea-trade in the way that I would wish. The Chinese here say a family of six persons will consume about 30 catties (40lbs.) annually of good tea, costing 30 to 40 dollars the pecul (114 goods assets on hand, of the value of £5,597>959 ; is it not necessary to have the detail of the amount of tea on hand at those respective periods, as forming part of those assets, in order accurately to ascertain the correctness of your statement ? — I have stated in a memorandum at the foot of this statement No. 3, that such an account would be desirable. 3775a. Will it not be necessary, with the same view, that you should have a detail of the commercial freight and demurrage charged in account No. 31 of the Parliamentary Papers 285 of the year 1829, for the years 1814-15, 1820-21, and 1827-8, the years for which you have made up the accounts, in order to ascertain whether any and what portion of that aggregate charge belongs to the Indian trade? — Certainly it would be desirable to have the details of freight, &c. for the whole period, in order to give a fair average thereof for the fourteen years included in my statement. 377f)«. Are the Committee to understand, that in your account you have taken the column headed " Commercial Freight and Demurrage," in account No. 31 ?— That, and that alone. 3777rt- Do not you suppose that in the first years of that column a con- siderable part of this charge for freight and demurrage arises out of the Company's freight to India ? — I explained in my former examination, that there were no documents which enabled me to separate the Indian from the Chinese freight; neither does it appear clear fiom this table. No. 31, whether it is or is not intended to include the Indian freight. It is probable enough that it does include the Indian freights as well as the Chinese ; but having no SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 479 no official document to rest upon, I thought it best, as before explained, gy Mardi IB3o. to take the figures as I found them in this document, and to state my reasons for so doing, admitting at the same time the probability of the Indian freight ^^ likkords, Lsq. being included. Now, if that freight is included, knowing as we do, that the East-India Company have of late years taken up ships lor India at the rate of from £9 to £12 a ton ; and referring to another document in this collection, wherein the Indian tonnage for the year 1821 is given at some- where about 6,000 tons ; it is therefore obvious that, in the case supposed, we should only have to deduct about £G0,000 or £70,000 for Indian fi'eight from the amount copied into my statement; and if so, this excess of charge may be thought to be fully counterbalanced by the admitted loss on the Company's export trade. 3778ff. Will it be necessary that the Committee should have before them an account of the wastage or loss suffered by the Company on the importa- tion of their teas, witli a view of ascertaining the accuracy of your accoimts? — That would be also desirable ; for as there is no official document in these papers to show what the amount of that wastage is, it can only be taken on an estimate of what private individuals have sustained in the same course of trade. 3779a. You have made these calculations entirely from the Parliamentary Papers, without taking into consideration at what price the tale has been converted into the pound sterling? — I have taken the whole cost of the teas in China at the rate stated in the official documents. 3780«. Would a considerable difference appear in the result of your cal- culations supposing the tale should have been estimated at 65. 8rf., being only 65. in reality? — That would of course make a difference in the conversion of tales into sterling money; but with that exchange I have nothing to do here. The prime cost of the tea to the Company is officially stated in No. 32 of these papers to be so many pounds sterhng, and that amount I have taken ; in other words, I assume that the teas have actually cost the Company so many pounds sterling, because it is so officially certified, 3781r/. In making that calculation, had you regard to the annual accounts laid before Parliament, of the statement of the commercial profits of the Company which are here consolidated in No. 21 of these papers? — I have looked at that account. 3782^/. Do you believe that account to be correct from your examination? — I dare say it is correct as far as it goes. It bears the official signature of Mr. Leach, and purports to be furnished from the India Board Office. 3783fl. Does not that account show a profit to the Company upon their transactions ? — I cannot perceive it. 3784.a. Have the goodness to refer to No. 23, at the bottom of the page, where you will find a memorandum, which states, that the " amount set apart from surplus commercial profits for liquidation of debt, subsequent to 1st May 1814, and not deemed repayable by the territory," has amounted in several 4.80 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 29 March 1830. several years to a very large sum ; altogether to £4,923,021 ? — I perceive a memorandum to that effect tacked to the bottom of the account No. 23; but B. Richards, tsq. j cannot find out where the profit comes from : it certainly does not arise out of this account. 3785a. Your evidence goes to state, that the dividend and the interest on the bond is paid out of the territorial revenues of India ; whereas those accounts state, that the charges paid in England, on account of the territory, by the commercial branch, exceed the advances made in India to the com- mercial branch for the purpose of buying tea at Canton ? — It is so stated in this memorandum. Profit is the balance of a commercial account, after a fair and full deduction of every description of charge, and there is no such account, that I can find, in this collection, to show a real profit upon the Company's commercial concerns. SJSGti. Are you aware that it has never been admitted on the part of the Company, that the interest of the bond-debts is chargeable upon the com- merce ? — I have seen it so stated ; but my authority is the Act of Parlia- ment. 3787^/. Are you not aware, that the Company, in the accounts they pre- sented to Parliament, have regularly appended a note to reserve their claims to the bond-debt? — I have seen intimations to this effect. 3788a. Are you aware that the China ships are employed sometimes in carrying out troops and stores? — I am. 3789a. Do you suppose that the freight and demurrage upon ships so employed is fairly to be taken as ciiargeable entirely upon the commercial account? — Not on the commercial account. The political freight and de- murrage is stated separately in this very table, No. 31, viz. in the second column. 3790a. You are understood to state, that after a strict examination of Paper No. 21, you cannot perceive that any profit arises to the Company upon their general trade ? — I cannot ; neither can I find out whence this profit arises. The memorandum alluded to struck me at the time I first inspected these accounts ; and, upon examining the two next accounts, 24 and 25, which may be considered as a kind of riders to the other general Account 23, for they also contain a general statement of the debts and assets of the East- India Company, the one as the same stood on tlie 1st of May 1815, and the other on the 1st of May 1828, a fiesh difficulty presented itself In the first of those accounts, No. 24, after placing the whole of the assets against their debts, and estimating the former at their own valuation, there is a " balance deficient" stated in this account of £2,611,311, and on the account 1828 there is a " balance deficient" of £10,102,812, thus showing that the Company's affairs have deteriorated, between 1815 and 1828, in no less a sum than about seven millions and a half sterling. These, therefore, are obviously not the accounts that would indicate any thing like profit in the Company's concerns. 3791a. What SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 481 3791^/. What, ill your estimation, would be the reduction in the price of 29 March lb30. tea to the consumer in this country, if the Company's monopoly were done away with ? — I stated that fully in my former examination. R- Eickards, Esfj. 3792ff. Would that reduction be effected by a saving in the price of shipping, or the original cost-price in Canton? — Both the one and the other. 3793fl. In what degree?- — I have given it in detail in the Statement (B) delivered in upon my former examination. 379-t«. In the event of the monopoly ceasing, and supposing that in con- sequence of that the persons who now trade to China had recourse to smug- gling much more than it now exists, would not that diminish the disposition of the Chinese government to cultivate commercial relations with this country? — It does not appear to me that the opening the trade to China would increase the disposition to smuggling. There are only certain articles the import or export of which are prohibited in China. One of those articles, opium, for example, I conceive to be of such indispensable necessity to the Chinese of all ranks, that it' would be imported in despite of any duties or laws to the contrary ; but with regard to all other articles of trade, I see no reason why smuggling should be increased from the circumstance of the trade being opened ; or if it did increase in consequence of enormous duties or unjust laws, the Chinese government, with whom alone the regula- tion of this matter rests, would doubtless modify the system as soon as they should find it to be for their own interest to do so. 3795a. Would not you say that the smuggling is at present of less con- sideration to the Chinese government than it would be if the trade were thrown open? — As far as I am acquainted with the China trade, I do not believe that smuggling is a subject of so much consequence in the estimation of the Chinese government as it appears to be in ours, or else that they would take more effective measures for preventing it. There is no doubt that the Chinese authorities connive at the importation of opium into China. They are generally understood secretly to sanction it ; besides which, a despotic government, like that of China, cannot fail to benefit itself in a variety of ways besides that of collecting legal duties. 3796^/. Will you explain your reasons for thinking that, in case of the competition of an open trade, the cost-price of teas would be lower in China? — The Company, as it appears from the records in print, are in the habit of disposing of certain quantities of exports from this country, woollens, for example, to the Hong merchants ; and they require the Hong merciiants, who enter into contracts with them for teas, to take certain quantities of tliose articles in proportion to the amount of teas contracted for. It is very natural that the supercargoes should require as large a price as possible for the articles thus disposed of to the Hong merchants ; but the latter pre- tend, at least, that on the re-sale of the articles they are subject to loss. In proportion, therefore, as they give high, or (as they say) to them, losing prices for the articles they take from the Company, they will as naturally demand 482 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 29 March 1830. demand higher prices for their teas in return. The Company's transactions with the Hong merchants are thus virtually a trade of barter. I have li.lhrliards.I'.sq. therefore no doubt in my own mind, that if the trade was thrown open, and tiie teas purchased for real ready-money prices by private merchants, they would be enabled to procure this article, if not immediately, at least in the course of a short time, at a cheaper rate than it is now paid for by the India Company. 8797«- Then the export of British manufactures from this country to China to that extent would cease ? — My impression is that the export would be incalculably increased, and that for the reasons I have explained in my former examination. 3798«. You are understood to state, that those articles now exported appear to be taken by compulsion ? — In the case I have supposed of free trade, tiiere could be neither compulsion nor undue influence used. A private merchant must sell his goods for what he can get ; if he cannot get a high price for those goods he must take a lower one. 8799«. Are the goods much in demand in China after they are sold to the Hong merchants by the Fast-India Company? — I conceive they are; but the Hong merchants are obliged to take them at a higher price than they themselves admit to be profitable to them. 3S00«. Do they take them at a higher price than is given to the American importers ? — I have no access to American sales ; but the Hong merchants, so far as we can learn from public records, state, or at least it has been stated for them, that they are losers by the woollens and metals they have taken at the Company's prices ; it is therefore natural to conclude, that if they have been losers, they will put that loss upon the tea which the Com- pany require to take from them in return. 3801a. Have you examined the prices of teas at Canton sufficiently to be able to say whether the merchants of other countries purchased them at a lower cost price than the Company? — I know that some private merchants have; those that have brought home tea in the privileged tonnage of the Company's ships. SSOSfiT. Can you state whether it is the case with the American trade ? — I have no document at hand to prove it ; and I am unwilling to advance any thing as a fact without adequate authority ; but I may add, that I have generally understood it to be the case. 3803fl. Do you happen to know the rate of freight at which the East- India Company now charter their ships for a direct voyage to and from China? — I can only state that too from general information; because there " is no official document for it in the papers now before me, but it is gene- rally understood that the ('ompany's large ships cost them from £'20 to £25 a ton, including the Company's own ships, and taking into account the whole period of their present charter. At present the rate of freight is, I believe, somewhat lower. 3804.ff. Do SELECT COMMITTEE of thk HOUSE OF COMMONS. 483 3S0ir/. Do you mean the ships now contracted for? — Yes; I mean the 29 March 1830. whole fleet of 1, '^00-ton ships. •nT-ii . 1 1, . . .1 . n r • 1 i-i It. lUrknrd.t, Esq 3S05a. vv 111 you be good enough to state the rate or freight at which you think you couUl yourself charter a first-rate mercliant ship from this country for a voyage to ( 'anton and baciv ? — I have never, of course, had occasion to freight a ship from England to Canton and back ; but I have no doubt that it may be done at the rate of about £12 per ton for the whole voyage. Besides which, if the trade were free, many ships would make successful voyages to India, the Eastern islands or other parts, and thence to China ; in which cases £8 to £10 per ton would amply remunerate them as a home- ward freight. 38U6r/. Do you conceive that the articles of British manufacture imported into China from this country are sold thereat a lower rate by the Americans than the same articles imported into China by the Company ? — That I cannot tell, never having seen the account sales of an American consign- ment; but I conclude that they have upon the whole sold them at a profit ; because otherwise, I think, they would not have carried on so large a trade as they have done for such a length of time. 3807^/. Do you conceive the Company have fixed too high a price upon those articles? — I cannot positively tell what the actual price of the Com- pany is, compared with the prime cost of the article, without seeing official documents for the purpose ; but whatever that price is, the Company have of themselves stated that it has been attended with regular loss to them. 3808a. And yet you consider that the reason of the high price of tea, as purchased by the Company, is the high price which they place on articles of British manufacture exported by them to China, by which according to your account, they are losers ? — The prices for which the woollens are sold in China may produce the effect which I have explained on the price of tea, and yet be very possibly a losing concern to the East-India Company ; for the prices of the Company's teas, and the gain or loss on their exports, are not regulated by a common ratio or measure. Those exports, in addition to prime cost, being loaded with certain charges, might be sold to the Hong merchants at a price which would either yield a gain or a loss to the East- India Company. In the present instance, it is stated to be a loss ; and I do not myself see how that loss is to be at all mixed up with the prices which the Hong merchants charge on the tea to the Company. The price of the tea will be affected by the actual jmces charged on the woollens to the Hong merchants, whether that be gain or loss to the Company. 3809«. You are understood to state, that the reason why the East-India Company purchased their tea so disadvantageously, in your opinion, is on accountof their compelling the Hong merchants to purchase their English manufactures at the high rate which they choose to affix upon them ? — I have stated that as one cause ; that is, that the actuul prices, not the gain or loss, on the woollens, would naturally affect the price of tea : but I have no 3 Q doubt, 481< EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 39 March 1830. doubt, also, that if the trade to Canton was thrown open, and free competi- ^ tion allowed between buyers and sellers, that free competition would have li. Richards, Esq. j^j^^ gflect of increasing production and of lowering prices, in the same way that competition produces the same effect in all other parts of the world, and in all other branches of trade. SSlOff. Does not this competition, in point of fact, at present exist with respect to other nations trading at this time in competition with the East- India Company ? — There are no other nations that trade to China to any extent, that 1 am aware of, except the Americans ; and the Americans cannot carry goods to China upon the same favourable terms that British traders could do, if they were freely admitted into the trade. I therefore think that the present prices of tea to the Company admit of no fair com- parison with the rates at which they could be procured by British traders, if they were allowed free access to the port at Canton. SSlla. In what respect do the Americans now trading suffer disadvan- tages which would not be applicable to the English free-traders, supposing the trade were thrown open ? — I explained that fully in my former examination. 1 explained how the facilities which British and Indian traders could reci- procally give to each other by means of free access to the port of Canton, was, in my estimation at least a matter of so much national importance as to be entitled to the most serious consideration. The superior advantages hence resulting to British traders would not be confined to advantages over Americans alone, but over all the other traders of the world ; and not only in respect of Canton itself, but for the conveyance of produce, both British and Asiatic, to various other countries. 381 '-2a. Do you consider that there can be a free competition of trade carried on at Canton ? — I have not the least doubt of it. 3813rt. And that the establishment of the Hong would form no obstacle to such free competition ? — From all that I have heard of the Hong merchants in China, and their disposition towards the free-traders who proceed from India to China, I cannot for a moment doubt their willingness to promote, and not to obstruct, a perfectly free trade with Canton. 3814a. Do you consider that the articles of British manufacture which are found the most saleable at Canton, could be sold at a lower rate than they are, in point of fact, sold by the East-India Company, and still at a remune- rating price? — I think they might. 3815fl. Is it to be collected from the answer you have already given, that you consider dollars to be the article with which the trade can be most advantageously carried on with regard to the trade at Canton? — At present it is commonly supposed that dollars are the article most to be depended on for the j)urpose oi purchasing commodities in the China market. In certain proportions they arc perhaps the most advantageous under the present limited circumstances of the trade j but if the trade was thrown open, I conceive that SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COxMMONS. 485 that a great change would take place in the general course thereof, mucli 09 Marcli 1S30 the same as has taken phice in Italia. Formerly it was ihougiit necessary to - carry bullion to India; at present we find that there is no necessity for con- Ii.Iiickards,Esq. veying either gold or silver to India ; that goods will answer as well, and in some cases better ; and I do conceive that, in tlie course of perhaps the same time which has been occupied in giving a taste to the Indians for British manufactures, the same effect will probably be produced upon the Chinese. 38l6«. Do you mean to say that, at this time, any other cargo will be an equally profitable investment in the Indian trade with dollars? — Certainly I do ; I say tiiat from perfect knowledge of the fact. 3817«. Has the export trade to India been uniformly a profitable one ? — I do not say uniformly. In all great branches of trade, like that which exists between England and India, there must inevitably be losses. I believe there is no other great branch of trade, out of Great Britain, in which losses are not equally experienced ; but I do say that, upon the whole, the export trade to India has been profitable to those concerned in it. I could myself state instances where I know that consignments of goods from this country to Bombay have yielded a profit of upwards of 50 per cent. , 3818a. Do you conceive that any portion of those losses has accrued from consignments of dollars to India? — No ; my position is, that dollars are not now sent to India ; and certainly no consignment of dollars would ever yield such a profit as I have before stated. 3819^. Are you not aware of many severe losses incurred in the export trade to India ? — I have heard of losses, and I have no doubt that many losses have been incurred, but I am not particularly acquainted with any. 3820ff. Are you not aware of many consignments of European goods to Calcutta having been sold under European prime cost on many occasions ? — In large branches of trade, like that between India and England, consign- ments will be often sent to India that are ill calculated for the Indian market. At the first opening of the trade, several manufacturers in this country, and other speculators, anxious to get rid of old stocks, sent out those stocks to India, in utter ignorance as to whether they were or were not fit for the Indian market. Many of those consignments certainly sold at a considerable loss ; but where goods are sent out to India well suited to the market (and many of such goods have passed through my own hands), I know, and speak positively, to their being attended with profit to the consignors. 3821a. Do you consider that the losses which may have taken place in the export trade from England to India have been more or less than the losses which have taken place in other branches of export trade ? — When I look at the return of the export trade from England to India, and theenormous increase that has taken place since 1813, I cannot conceive the possibility of that trade in the aggregate being otherwise than profitable. 3Q2 3822a. Is 486 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : •29 March 1830. 3822a. Is it not within your own knowledge, that within tiie last few years, " 7 ,, and even now, considerable quantities of bullion are brought from India to L.Rakards, i^sq. Q,.gj,^ Britain? — Certainly it is. And this is another marked change in the history of European intercouise with India. 3823a. Can you state what proportion of the export trade from this country has consisted of cotton ? — I could not state it from recollection, or without referring to official documents ; but the quantities are upon record, and I believe on the table of the Committee. 3821 -V' to renew any commercial intercourse with them until our troops were with- drawn from Macao. 3857«. Did they actually suspend all commercial intercourse with English ships? — Entirely so, both with the country ships and with those of the East-India Company ; and on that occasion, I think, the suspension continued for a period of four or five months, to the best of my recol- lection. .3858^. Had the Company's supercargoes any thing to do with the cause of that interruption? — Yes ; it was understood tliat they had : indeed I had reason to know that the expedition was sent by the supreme government of India to take possession of Macao, in consequence of an opinion that the French had an intention of that sort, and the expedition was sent to antici- pate the supposed intentions of the French. Admiral Drury came to China with orders from Lord Exmouth, who at that time commanded in chief in the Indian seas, to act in concert with the Select Committee of Supercargoes at Canton, and that he was not to adopt any measures that did not meet with their concurrence ; that fact I have heard Admiral Drury repeat himself frequently on that occasion. 3859a. How w^as that interruption terminated ? — During the four or five months that the trade was suspended, negociations were constantly going on between the Chinese authorities, and the British admiral and the Select Committee, and also between the Chinese authorities and commanders of the country ships, and the trade was not renewed until the whole of the troops were withdrawn. It ended in the admiral withdrawing the whole of the troops from Macao, and returning with them to India ; and as soon as the troops were embarked the trade was re-opened. S860a. Were you at Canton at that period ? — I was there during the whole of that time. S86lff. Had you any opportunity of knowing how the Chinese merchants considered that interruption ? — They considered it as a very great grievance ; and I had occasion to know that it produced a great deal of misery and distress amongst the Chinese merchants and to the trade in general. I had on that occasion very large consignments of goods in my own hands ; I think I had that year four or five ships and their cargoes consigned to me at Canton. At the period that the suspension of commercial intercourse took place, some of those cargoes had been sold, and some had not : those that had been sold previously were sold at very fair prices j but when I came to negociate a sale of what remained on hand, after the trade was re- opened, I found that the prices were greatly fallen, and that the ability of the purchasers to make good those prices had also been materially impaired, in consequence of the suspension of the commercial intercourse that had 3 R taken .M.I-. 492 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 29 Maicli 1830, taken pldce. I was, in fact, in that year obliged to quit Canton, leaviufr a - ^ ~ very large amount of money tliere belonging to my consii uents, whicl'i /tea , ..sq. J f(,i)n(] niyself utterly unable to recover that season. 38G'2;/. Did this interruption of" trade affect the American ships as well as the British siiips ? — Not at all. SSQSa. Did they continue to carry on their trade during this inter- ruption of the British trade without any difficulty? — Yes, without any diffi- culty. 38fi4rt. Is it your opinion that the Chinese government would find it very difficult to put an eml to the foreign commerce with England ? — I think they could ilo it ; but I atia of opinion that if the Chinese government were to put an end to that commerce, it would produce great misery and distress in China, particularly at Canton, where it is carried on. 38G5fl. Would the government, in your opinion, be strong enough to accomplish the putting an end to the trade? — My opinion is, that an edict of the emperor of China might be so enforced as to put a stop to all the regular foreign trade carried on with China ; but I do not think that the Ciiinese government could prevent smuggling being continued on the coast of Ciiina, even if they put a stop to the regular trade. 38CG^, Then yon do not mean to say that you think the Chinese govern- ment would have power to put a final stop to the progress of the trade? — No ; I think that a smuggling trade would be carried on on the coast of China to a very considerable extent, in spite of any act that the Chinese government might adopt. SSCya. Do you then infer that it would only change the character of the trade from a legal trade to an illegitimate one ? — It would also have the effect of diminishing it very considerably. I do not think that the smuggling trade alone could be carried on to the same extent to which the legal trade and the smuggling trade together are carried on now. 3868a. Would the distress arising from such a prohibition be much felt in the interior as well as in Canton ? — I do not feel competent to answer that question, not having been in the interior; but I suppose in the tea provinces it would be very severely felt, in consequence of the interruption that must necessarily take place to their export of tea. 3869a. Do you think that if this interruption of the trade took place, a place would not be found out in the neighbourhood of Canton to carry on the commercial transactions as they now carry them on at Canton, par- ticularly in the tea trade? — If the trade were put a stop to by the Chinese government it would prevent any ship from being admitted into a port of (Jliina. 3870(7. Do you think the trade could be carried on in the neighbour- hood of Canton, in any of the islands? — Yesj I imagine that tea might be conveyed SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 493 conveyed, and in all probability would be conveyed, to the islands on the 20 March I83(». coast of China : it might be smuggled from thence, or it might be sent in Chinese vessels to the islands in the Eastern Archipelago, and could be -^ Stewart, Es'j. exported from thence. •'^'- ''• SSyirt. Would it be sufficient to supply the wants of this country ? — If the Chinese permitted the export of tea in their own vessels, I am decidedly of opinion that a sufficient quantity might in that way be exported from China to supply the wants of all Europe. 387^(1. Do you suppose that they would do that under such circumstances? — I think they would. The C.'hinese are a people of great commercial enter- prize, and I think would be disposed to send tea wherever they could find a sale for it with advantage. 3873a. Have you not stated that the people are a people of commercial enterprize, but that a spirit of jealousy might exist on the part of the govern- ment? — I stated, that the people are a people of great commercial enterprize, though I have understood that the policy of the Chinese government is averse to extending its foreign commerce. oSy*^/. Do you understand that policy on the part of the Chinese govern- ment to have any reference to the extension of their trade in Chinese junks with the Indian Archipelago, or to be limited to the trade of European ves- sels within the waters of China? — I have understood that the Ciiinese govern- ment is averse to foreign commerce, even in their own vessels, and that they discourage the subjects of their own empire from going abroad at all, or from engaging in foreign trade. 3875a. Have you known any cases in which Chinese of high rank at Canton have been engaged in foreign commerce r — I have not. 8876^. Have you ever known any instance of a person wishing to emigrate, or wishing to carry on foreign commerce, being prevented by the Chinese authorities ? — No, I never have. When any Chinaman wishes to leave China in a British ship, he is obliged to do it by stealth ; it would be prevented if it were known. I have had occasion to know this, as Chinese are sometimes employed as seamen in British ships. 3877"- From your knowledge of the India trade generally, what do you consider would be the effijct of opening the trade at Canton to the British generally? — I think the eftect of it would be very favourable, especially as regards the export of British manufactures and produce, whicli in my opinion, would, under such circumstances, be consumed in China to a very great extent indeed, in the course of a very few years. 3878^/. What is the ground of that opinion ? — The ground of the opinion is, that woollens and metalsare articles of very considerable demand amongst the Chinese. Metals of every description are much required in China, and the exportation of them is strictly prohibited, except lead ; that, I believe is the only mttal allowed to be exported. I conceive, therefore, that Chirm 3 R 2 would M. P. 494 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 29 March 1830. would take off a great deal of iron, copper, and tin, also of woollens and of „ „ cotton manufactured piece aroods and cotton yarns, the consumption of all J. Stewart, Esq. i • i • .i • • ni ■ t i ^ i ^, ^ ' * which IS now on the increase in China, as i have reason to know. 3879a. Are the Committee to understand, that whatever amount of manufactures could be exported, there would be plenty of Chinese produce to bring back in return, and that there would be no difficulty in remitting money to England ? — No difficulty, in my opinion, if the trade were per- fectly open, as from the varied productions of China, it would affiard ample means of profitable returns, or, at all events, of returns, without loss, to almost any extent. SSSOa. What effect, in your opinion, would be produced on the general commerce of India by the opening of the trade between China and England direct? — It no doubt would be very favourable to India ; it would increase very considerably the exports from British India to China, because then we should be enabled to make our returns profitably from China direct to this country, which is a channel that we very much require to be opened, instead of making returns, as at present, exclusively to India, and in articles that do not always sell to a profit there. 3881 rt. Would not that promote the exportation of all kinds of Britislk manufactures from England to India, which are much limited by the want of means of remittance r — It would no doubt have that effect. 3882(2. From what you know of the character of the Chinese government, would you contemplate the opening of the trade at Canton without some estabhshed board or authority to represent the British government there ?— I am of opinion that if the trade were open, it would be necessary that a body should be constituted at Canton, with ample powers to exercise a most rigid and eflectual control over every British subject going to China. 3883a. Do not the Select Committee of the Company at Canton now ex- ercise that authority over all their officers and seamen? — They do; they have ample power of doing so by Act of Piu'liamcnt. 3884a. Do you contemplate any greater authority to be exercised over Englishmen generally, than the Company have now over their own servants? — No; I should think that no greater authority would be requisite. I think their powers are very ample, and they extend to all British subjects, as well as to the servants of tlie Company. 3885a. Do you consider that the substitution of a Committee deputed by the King would be attended to more than the Select Committee from the Company now? — Yes; I am of opinion that it would be more respected by the Chinese authorities than the servants of the East-India Company. 388Ga. On what do you ground that opinion ? — A circumstance occurred in China with Admiral Drury, when I was there, which may illustrate what 1 have stated, although my opinion is not exclusively grounded upon it. During the negociations that were going on with Admiral Drury on that occasion, ^f, i\ SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 4^5 occasion, he was very anxious to have a personal interview with the Viceroy 29 March 1830. of Canton, all their communications having previously been carried on through the medium of the Hong merchants. It was at one time under- •^- Sttwart, Efq. stood that the objections of the Viceroy to this personal interview had been overcome, and it was intimated to Admiral Drury tliat tiie Viceroy was dis- posed to receive him. In consequence of this, Admiral Drury came up to Canton, accompanied by boats from every ship in the fleet. I was one of those that attended him on that occasion, when he landed with a consider- able number of marines at Canton ; but after being there two days the Viceroy refused to receive him ; he returned to Whampoa without having had an interview with the Viceroy. It was stated at Canton at the time, and I have no doubt truly stated, that when the Viceroy consented to receive Admiral Drury, he did so in consequence of having been informed that Admiral Drury was an officer of rank holding a commission from the King of Great Britain, and that he might consequently have admitted him to a personal interview without any degradation to his own rank as Viceroy ; but after the Admiral had come to Canton, he was given to understand tiiat the Admiral had come on to China at the request or by the desire of the Governor-general of India, and the Viceroy then said that he couKl hold no communication with him, as he was deputed by a governor or servant of the East-India Company, who were only a body of merchants, and he could not in consequence receive him. That was what we understood to be the case at Canton at the time. 3887a. Then, from that and other opportunities of observation you have had, you think that an officer bearing the direct authority of the King of England instead of the authority of the Company, would have a better chance of being received and treated with by the authorities of China ? — Yes, I do ; by the public authorities of China certainly. 3888a. As a person well acquainted with the Canton river, what is your opinion of the difficulty or dangers attending the navigation up to Whanijjoa ? — There are fewer dangers, I think, in the Canton river than in almost any navigable river that I am acquainted with. There are several shoals as you approach the river, but they are mostly mud ; upon which, if a ship grounds, she seldom receives any damage. 3S89a. What is the greatest strength of current? — The current is always very moderate ; I should think the greatest strength does not exceed three or four miles an hour, tideways. 3890rt. Do you call that moderate ? — Very moderate. We have it nine, ten, and sometimes even twelve miles per hour in the Ganges. In the Canton river it is tide only, but in the Ganges, the strength of the tide is often augmented by the river floods. 3891rt. You have stated, that the last time you were in Canton was in 1817-18; have you had any dealings with China since that period as a merchant? — Yes; I have continued ever since that period, and am now, engaged in the trade with China to a very considerable extent. 3892rt. During M. P. 496 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 29 Marcli 1830. 3892fl. During the time you were there yourself, or since your return, ~ ■ p. has any agent of yours had occasion to apply to the Company's Select Com- ' *'' niittee for assistance, to enable you to carry on any part of your commercial dealings? — Never. 3S93a. Whilst you were in China upon any occasion, do you recollect any instance of any country officer or agent from India having occasion to apply to the Company's servants for such assistance ? — I am not aware of any instance. 3894^. Are you aware of the rate of freight which the Company pay for their cargoes home from China? — I understand that one of tiie ships last chartered by the Company, tiie Orwell, wns engaged at £18 a ton. I un- derstood that to be for the whole voyage out and home ; but I state this only from hearsay. 3895a. How long would tlie vessel be engaged in that voyage ? — I appre- hend it is about fifteen or sixteen months Irom the time they leave this country to the time when they generally return. 3S9Ga. How much of that £18 do you suppose would attach to the cargo of tea tiom China to London ?■ — I should think, witii reference to the rate of freight outward-bound to India now, that at least £15 or £I6 of it would attach to the freight home. The outward freight to India now is, I may say little or nothing; you may get goods out for 5s. or 105. a ton. 3897^- At what rate could you charter a ship, say of 500 or 600 tons, for a voyage to and from China?— I have no doubt I could charter a ship direct to Canton and back for £10, or at most £12 a ton ; indeed I think I could charter fifty ships in the Thames at this moment on these terms. 3898a. Of the size of the Orwell, do you mean ? — Not of the size of the Orwell. 3899a- What period do you contemplate for a direct voyage out and home to China, allowing six weeks or two months in China to deliver and receive cargo ? — I should say certainly within from ten to twelve months ; but for a ship ot 500 or 600 tons, we should not require six weeks, or any thing like it, at Canton. 3900rt. Have not large ships an advantage in Canton river, which smaller ships have not, in paying less port-charges and measurement? — Yes; they have a very great advantage, as the port-charges there upon a large ships are much hghter in proportion to her tonnage than they arc upon ships of smaller burden. 390la. Have the large ships any advantage in the stowage of a tea cargo home, over ships of 500 or 600 tons ? — None that I am aware of 3902fl. Have you stowed several cargoes of tea yourself? — I never stowed a cargo of tea, but I have stowed other cargoes in ships of from 500 tons up to 1,^00 tons ; and I am not aware that a ship of 1,200 tons can possess any advantage in the stowage of tea over a ship of 500 or 600 tons. 3903a. Do M. P. SELECT COMMITTEE of tfie HOUSF. OF COMMON'S. 497 S9')'i(i. Do you mean to say, that the lighter port-charfres wlitcli larg-e 20 Mmcli 1H30. ships pay in China is the only aclvaiitan;e wiiichAon id. and 5s. 7rf. is to be attributed to the mode in which the Comjmny carried on their business. 4007. Then, in fact, they lost by their consignments of merchandize? — Yes, as compared with the rate of exchange for bills on England. 4008. And so they did by the goods sent from India ? — Yes. 4009. Sup- SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. .511 4009. Supposing the goods sent from India had been calculated at U. 10c/. *> Maixli 1S30. for a rupee, what would have been the value of the tale then ? — It would take some time to make the calculation. It is about 2d. in the rupee upon ^" ^-'- •'^%'A /-•«'/• all the rupees that have been furnished through India; it would not have made a very considerable difference in the tale on the final result. 4010. You have stated that the real cost of the tale to the Company is 6s. 10(1. and 417 decimals, so that the loss by this mode of supply must be the difference between 5s. Jd. and Gs. lOd. and 417 decimals? — It is so, pre- suming we could have obtained all our supplies by means of bills, which I conceive to be extremely doubtful. I think it very questionable whether we could have obtained bills for two millions sterling upon the Court in one season. 4011. Can you state how much of the money paid into the Company's treasury in Canton has arisen from the sale of goods there, and how much from exchange operations? — The exchange operations are, "Bills upon Bentral 562,292," and "Bills upon England, 135,813 j" making together, 698,405. 4012. Can you state to the Committee what loss you suppose to have arisen from the bills drawn on Bengal ? — For the bills drawn on Bengal we pay the territory at the rate of 25. Sy^rf. 4013. What is its intrinsic value according to the exchange ? — The ex- change, I apprehend, at that time was about Is. 1 \d. 4014. Should not you consider that ihe Act of Parliament directing the mode in whicli the upset price of the leas should be fixed, meant that it should be done according to the actual cost of the teas to the Company, and not according to any arbitrary valuation of the rupee, or of any other coin ? — I apprehend, certainly, tliat the Act of Parliament intended the teas should be put up at what they cost tne Company ; and by the operation we pursue, I conceive we fully comply with the Act of Parliament, because it actually has cost the Company to place the tale there, so much money as I have stated in the account I have delivered in. 4015. Could not the Company have placed the tale there, by your own statement, at a much more reasonable rate ? — By drawing bills, certainly. 4016. Then must not your revenues in Bengal have been benefited to the extent of the larger price that has been put upon the tale, in so far as con- cerns that portion of the money which has been drawn upon Bengal .- — The revenues of Bengal have been benefited by the difference between the ex- change of Bengal upon England, and the rate of 25. 3-^d., which is nearly 5d. in the rupee. 4017. And to that extent the upset price of the teas of the Company has been increased in the amount ? — The upset price has certainly been in- creased in consequence of the mode we adopt j but not to the full extent of the 512 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 30 Maixli 18:^0. the difference, because the upset price has resulted from calculating the rupee at the intrinsic value. oy , sq. ^QYS. Could you, looking at this paper, state to the Committee what is the per-centage of difference between the cost, as you have stated it to have been calculated, and the cost as it would be if it had been taken at the rate of the direct exchange ? — It would make about 14 per cent. Jovis, 1° die Aprilis, 1830. The Petition of Merchants, &c. of His Majesty's Colony of the Cape of Good Hope, presented to the House on the 9th day of March last, and then referred to this Committee, was again read. ABRAHAM BORRADAILE, Esq. called in, and examined. Apiil, 1830. 4019. You are resident in London ? — I am. "77~y 7 4020. What is your situation as connected with the Cape of Good Hope? '^F.^a ' — ^ have been a merchant trading to the Cape for the last twelve or thirteen years ; I am chairman of the Committee of the Cape Society, and the petition before the Committee was sent to me through the medium of the Commercial Exchange Committee at the Cape, begging that I would get it presented to Parliament. 4021. Are you prepared to support the allegations of the petition ? — I am, perfectly. 4022. Can you state in what way the colony of the Cape suffer injury from the East-India Company's mode of exercising their exclusive right of supplying the Cape with tea ? — In the first place, the East-India Company charge a higher price for tea than would be charged by a private merchant, if he were allowed to import it direct from China to the Cape. The next grievance is, that only two of the East-India Company's ships are allowed to touch there, which prevents the resort of shipping to the Cape, which is a thing highly advantageous to the colony. In the third place, it prevents any thing like a transit trade, which the situation of the Cape might occasionally offer advantages for. 4023. On what ground do you say that the Company charge a higher price for the tea tlian the same tea could be obtained for by the private trade ? — I have here a calculation of what wc apprehend the cost of tea to the Com- pany would be at the Cape, and what they sell it for. 4024. What documents did you make the calculation from ? — From the notoriety of the price of tea at Canton. We have taken the price of black tea at 20 tales a pecul. 4025. At SELECT COMMITTEE of thk HOUSE OF COMMONS. .013 4025. At what rate of exchange? — At 6s. 4id. the tale British sterling, we i Aj)iil 1830. make the tea to cost Is. a pound in China. 4026. Do you take the same rate of exchange in estimating the Company's ' Es. per lb., 10 per cent 85 F| Cost of a pound of black tea at the Cape 1 10^ If we add to this sum of Is. \0^d., cost of a pound of tea, with all charges, a profit of 25 per cent., it is presumed, if private traders will be found eeiger to enter into the trade, then its cost will be 25. 3|fif. per lb. 4033. You have in the first statement made an allowance of 10 per cent, of duties to be paid to the emperor of China on exportation ; are you not aware that the emperor's duty on tea is charged in the cost of the tea? — I was not quite certain of that, and therefore I charged it both in the one ami the other. I added it rather than have left it out, because it makes the calculation so much more in favour of the Company. 4034. Have you estimated the exchange of the tale at the same value in both accounts ? — Yes. 4035. Are the Committee to understand, that if no export duty is charged above the price usually quoted in Canton, both those statements will be higher by the 10 per cent, wliich you have allowed ? — Yes. 4036. You have estimated the emperor's duties and the shipping charges at Canton at 15 per cent, ; do you know whether the Chinese merchants who sell the tea, ship the tea without any charge or not ? — No, T do not. 4037. You have estimated the sale at (Js. i-d. ; supposing, according to the present rate of exchange, the sale were 5s. 6d., what difference would that make in your estimate of the cost of the tea ? — That would be a matter of calculation. 3 U 4038. Do Esq. 516 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS • 1 April 1830. 4038, Do you know what the actual rate of exchange by merchants, between China and the Cape, is ? — There is no such thing as exchange be- A. Borradaik, tween China and the Cape. 4039- What reason have you for beheving that the freight costs the Company £22 per ton from China to the Cape of Good Hope : — From the rate at which the ships are chartered, I apprehend it cannot cost them a great deal less than that. 4040. In your estimate you make the freight of the tea from China to the Cape of Good Hope cost as much as the amount starting from London to India, and then to Canton, and then back to London ? — Yes ; because tiie Company's ships never take in any thing at the Cape to fill up their vacant space, and therefore we allow them the same rate in that way as if they brought the tea all the way to London. 4041. If the trade were thrown open, what return-cargo would go from the Cape to Canton? — There would be no return cargo ; it must be silver that must go. There would be no return-cargo unless the vessel filled up in the Straits in going there, and which she very likely might do. 4042. Upon what data have you taken the freight at £8. 85. per ton by the private trade ? — Upon the being able to charter a ship for that sum of money. 4043. Can you take up shipping at that rate now ? — No doubt we could. 4044. Can you usually do it at about that rate ? — Yes. 4045. Have you been engaged in sliipping yourself? — No. 4046. Have you hired ships? — I have hired ships occasionally. 4047. And you state that estimate of £8. Ss. from what you know the present prices are ? — Yes. 4048. Do you charge the whole of the freight in your calculation of the private trade? — No ; something might be got in freight from the Straits to China, which would enable the ship-owner to bring the tea from China at that price : perhaps £2 or £3 a ton might be got in that way. 4049. Have you made the calculation upon the full amount of freight ? — Yes. 4050. Then the comparison between the Company's freight and the freight upon the private trade is founded upon the same data? — It is. 4051. What is the rate of exchange at the Cape of Good Hope upon England ? — The rix-doUar is Is. 6d. sterling ; they are at a premium of 1^ per cent, upon Treasury bills. 4052. Have you any means of buying Spanish dollars at the Cape of Good Hope? — Not at present to any extent. 4053. How then could you send them to Canton? — We could have dollars Bent out from England to the Cape at no very great charge. Except a few SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 517 a few seal-skins, that would be the only thing that could go from the Cape i April IS'Mi. to Canton, as a return-cargo ; it must be a money-trade ; we must place funds at Canton for the purchase of the teas. ^- Borrmlaih, 4054. And the means you would adopt of obtaining funds would be by ''"^' obtaining them from England ? — Yes. 4055. And that forms the basis of your calculation ? — Yes. 4056. If the trade were thrown open between Canton and the Cape, might not ships supply the Cape with all the articles they require, and fill up with wine or corn, or other Cape produce, and bring their full tonnage on to England ? — No doubt they might. 4057. Would not that reduce the amount of tonnage which you have given in the estimate considerably ? — I do not know that it would. 4058. What is the home freight between the Cape and England at the present time ? — About £3 a ton. 4059. Would not you then save £3 out of the £8 which you have stated as the freight for the whole voyage ? — If you are to take a ship starting from London, and touching at the Cape, and going to Canton j but we should consider the voyage as ended when she got to the Cape. 4060. Might not a ship be contracted for from England to Canton, with liberty to touch at the Cape either going out or coming home, and would not that diminish the charge of freight on the tea very considerably ? — Per- haps it might ; it would be according to the rate of freight they got at the Cape. 4061. Are you aware of any tea having been bought in London and sent out to the Cape ? — Y'es, I bought some myself, and the Company's otEcers and the comptroller of the Customs laid their heads together and seized it, though they had the opinion of the Board of Trade and of the Commissioners of Excise and Customs, and the Governor of the Cape, that the tea was perfectly legal, and the tea was restored ; and the most the Company's agent could do was to protest against it as an illegal importa- tion. 4062. Has that been repeated ? — Not by us, because it only realized about 21 per cent., which was not sufficient to induce us to repeat it. It was tea which had been bought at the Company's sale in London. 4063. How much less could you have sold that tea at the Cape than the tea actually sold by the Company ? — I cannot tell that. It might fetch about the Company's prices, and doing that it only left us a trifling profit, because we bought at 2s. 3d. a pound in London what we could have bought at Is. in China : but we did it to see whether the Company would be so strict in their monopoly as even to prevent that mode of supply. 4064. Do you consider the present monopoly of the Company as injurious to the general trade of the Cape? — Exceedingly injurious. 3 U 2 4065. Do 518 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 1 April 1830. 4065. Do you find any great difficulty in remitting from the Cape the ' produce of English manufactures ? — No, we find no difficulty ; bills are at £«o a premium of li per cent. ; for £101. 105. you can get a bill on England for '** £100 sterling. 4066. In what way do you consider the monopoly to be most injurious to the trade of the Cape ? — Because the excess of price which the people are charged for the tea might be spent by them in other matters, by which tiie trade of the colony would be promoted. If they could get the same quan- tity of tea for £10,000 for which they now pay £20,000, they might spend the other ten in promoting the trade, shipping, and every thing else belonging to the colony. 4067. Are the Committee to understand that the sale-price of the tea at the Cape is in general higher than in England ? — No doubt it must be so; it is about 3s. 9d. a pound. 4068. You have stated that only two ships from China stop at the Cape ; this petition complains that the vessels trading to India are prevented from stopping at the Cape out or home, is that the flict ? — That is the fact : there are two ships licensed by the Company to leave their teas there, and then go on. 4069. If the trade were open, you consider the Cape would derive bene, fit from private ships calling at the Cape? — Yes, I do. As an instance of that I may mention, that during the spring of last year there were many ships chartered for Bombay and tiie Mauritius more than could find loading, and nearly all of those touched at the Cape as their dernier resort, by which means the merchants at the Cape got their wine biought home at 155. a pipe instead of 305. or 35s. ; besides which, the}' had to supply those ships with a large quantity of colonial produce, which was a beneficial trade to the colony. 4070. It is stated in the petition, that a great increase has taken place since the trade with India was opened in 1815; are the Committee to understand that the Cape has benefited by opening the trade to India ? — Exceedingly. 4071. And, in like manner, you expect, that if the trade to Cliina was open, a further improvement in tlie state of the colony would take place ? Decidedly. 4072. Is the balance of trade, generally speaking, in favour of the Cape of Good Hope, or in favour of Great Britain ? — It is in favour of Great Britain. 4073. Is the freight from Great Britain to the Cape higher than the freigiit back ? — The freight from Great Britain to the Cape is about 105. a ton, and back it is about £3. Mr. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 519 ! Mr. ALEXANDER M'DONALD, and Mr. DANIEL DIXON, i ApriMbSo called in and examined. Mr.A.M^DomU, 4074. {To Mr. M'Donald) You have been resident at the Cape? — I have for about thirty-two years ; I left in 1827. 4075. (To Mr. Dixo7i.) How long have you resided there ? — For thirteen Mr. D. Dixon. years; from 1813 to 1826. 4076. Will you have the goodness to look at the calculations which have been delivered in by Mr. Borradaile ; were you concerned in making them ? — I was. 4077. Do you believe them to be correct ? — I do, according to information I obtained at the Cape. 4078. According to that calculation, the price of ordinary black tea, such as is consumed at the Cape, is Ss. 9d. a pound ? — The price the Company sells at is from 3s. 4d. to 3s. 9d.; 3s. 9d. is about the average ; they have a higher class again than that, which they sell at 45. 4079. Will you explain the mode in which the Company's teas are sold at the Cape ? — The Company have a resident agent at the Cape, who sells the teas. Formerly there was a public sale on the Thursday in every week, at which the government auctioneer attended ; there were no catalogues printed, but the teas were put up by the vendue-master by the single chest, at a certain price, and any person who wished to purchase, took as many as he wished at that price. The duty of the auctioneer was mei eiy to offer each separate description of tea at the price that was fixed, and to knock down the quantity called for by each individual, and there the sale closed. 4080. What is the present mode in which the teas are sold by the Com- pany at the Cape ? — Tiie government have now abolished the office of vendue-master, and the Company do not now sell by an auctioneer ; and instead of selling as they used to do at two montlis' credit they now sell for cash, deducting five per cent, for leady money. Thursday is still kept up as the day of sale, tlie price of eacii description of tea is fixed, and any person may go upon that day and take as many chests as he pleases at tliose prices. 4081. Is the tea sold at a cheaper rate now than it was formerly ? — No ; it is sold at the same price ; there is no variation in the prices ; the Com- pany fix their own prices for the teas, and they get their own prices whatever they may be. 4082. Can you state the description of teas that are generally imported by the Company into the Cape of Ciood Hope, and the prices at which they are sold ? — They consist of ibur black teas : congo, souchong, sonciii, ami pekoe; and of two green teas, hyson and gunpowder. The congo is generally sold at about 70 rix-dollars for 25 catty boxes, that is about 3.s. 6d. a pound ; souchong at about 80 rix-dollars for 25 catty boxes, which is about 4i\ a pound ; sonchi at about 120 rix-dollars for 40 catty boxes, which is about 3s. 7d. 520 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 1 April 1830. Mr. D. Dixon. 3s. 7d. a pound ; and pekoe at about 40 rix-dollars for 10 catty boxes, or 45. 9d. a pound. Hyson is sold for about 100 rix-dollars for 25 catty boxes, or about 5s. a pound ; and gunpowder for about 50 rix-dollars for 10 catty boxes, or 6s. a pound. 4083. What is the general quality of the tea imported by the Company into the Cape? — It is generally inferior, and it is much complained of. 4084. Can you furnish the Committee with a statement of the quantity of tea that has been imported into the Cape by the Company for a number of years? — I have a statement of the quantity and declared value for the last thirteen years. [27?e witness delivered in the same, which was read as follows :] (D.) Statement showing the Quantity and declared Value of Tea, on which th* Duties of Customs have been paid at the Cape of Good Hope, from the Year 1816 to 1828, both inclusive : Population for the same period. YEARS. POPULATION. Weight in lbs. to 112 lbs. English. Declared Value for Duties in Rix- Dollars. In British Sterling. 1816 1817 88,486 97,535 98,899 101,657 105,336 110,147 111,451 116,205 118,300 121,497 124,320 128,403 132,610 lbs. *125,.585 * 116,222 *1 18,506 * 106,608 * 158,788 93,795 *73,965 *77,650 * 112,750 113,215 106,512 91,311 77,916 Rdrs. 247,171 232,445 237,013 212,306 307,577 187,667 147,930 154,301 225,500 223,360 213,066 182,680 141,936 £. S. d. 26,776 17 21,307 10 21 726 4 1818 1819 20,347 1820 28,194 11 1821 1822 1823 14,075 10,478 11,.572 11 1824 11,972 11 1825 16,752 1826 15,980 1827 13,701 1828 10,646 * In these years the weights were not returned by the custom-house, only the value in rix- dollars; but 2 Rdrs. per lb. is understood to be the value at which duties are levied. The pounds here stated, it is presumed, will be found nearly correct. 4085. In the paper which has been delivered In by Mr. Borradaile, you take for granted that you can buy the quality of tea supplied at the Cape at 20 tales a pecul, do you suppose that the Company buy the tea which is sup- plied at the Cape at that rate ? — We have taken 20 tales, from mere infor- mation SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 521 mation, as the price at which good black tea of that quality might be pur- ] /^piji jssd chaseJ. 408G. In what way do you consider the Company's monopoly in the China ^^- ^- ^^"''"• market has injured the Cape of Good Hope? — We consider it has injured the Cape of Good Hope, insomucli as they have fixed the price higher than the nhabitants have been able to pay for it, and in consequence the consumption i as considerably fallen' oft'. 4087. Is it your opinion, that if the tea could be sold cheaper from the state of society there, a much larger consumption would take place ? — No doubt of it ; four times the present amount. 4088. Do you mean to say that four times the present amount could be consumed there if private traders were allowed to enter into the trade?— (Mr. M'Bonald.) — I think the consumption would be considerably increased, Mr.A.M'Donald. but I cannot say to what precise amount. 4089. During the time you have been there have the Company's prices for tea of the same quality been fixed, or have they varied every year ? — I never • took any notice of the variation of the prices, but I know that the Company ahvays fix their own prices, and they sell them at those prices : formerly they used to fix the price in proportion to the exchange, and when the exchange was high, naturally of course the Company altered their prices. (Mr. Dixon.) — As they fixed their prices in rix-doUars, and as the dollar Mr. 1). Diwn. fluctuated, it made a difference some years in the sterling prices of the teas ; but they made it up in the following year, for there was a variation in the rate of exchange until the year 1820, when the dollar was fixed. 4090. Would the supply of any other articles, the produce of Canton, be increased if the trade were opened. — {Mr. McDonald.) — There is no question Mt-.A.M' Donald. about it. Silks of all descriptions, and nankeens^ and crockery-ware, and all the different things. 4091. Then you mean to say, that by the present restrictions upon trade the supply of all these articles for the Cape has been very much narrowed.' — There is no doubt of it. 4092. And that you think has been attended with commercial injury to the society at the Cape ? — I consider it has been a very great injury to the settlement. 4093. In what way do you consider the colony will be benefited by the opening of the trade to China ? — It will be benefited by it in this respect : there would be an increase of shipping calling at the Cape, and there would be an interchange of comm.odities. 4094. What commodities have you to interchange ? — We have got wines and different things, that might be sent to the eastward, and I have myself often sent them to the eastward. Wines might be sent to Sincapore, and different articles of colonial produce. 4095. Will 522 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 1 April 1830. 4095. Will you enumerate a few of the articles? — Butter and ivory ; hides Mr A~i\rn Id ^"^' *^'^'"s of all descriptions ; horns, aloes, and ostrich feathers ; corn also nii<^ht be sent; but I do not think corn would answer, because it is grown cheaper in India. Salt fish might be sent. It would create a spirit of enter- prize in the colonists, Mr. D. Dixon. (Mr. Dixon.) — ^There are two articles which would be in immediate de- mand in China; the elephants' teeth and seal-skins. 4096. Would any train oil be sent ? — I should think not. 4097- You have stated, that when the exchange on England varied, the prices of tea also varied. Since the currency at the Cape was fixed, has the price of the different kinds of tea sold by the Company been also fixed ? — Their prices have remained nearly stationary. 4098. Is there any other way in which ships coming from the eastward from China would promote the interest of the colony? — By discharging their cargoes from the eastward, and taking in other cargoes in return. 4099. What other cargoes? — Cargoes of wines and other commodities, for Europe. 4100. W^ere you at the Cape before the trade to India was opened in 1S14? Mr. A.M' Donald. ^{_Mr. M' Donald.)— Yes, I was there since 1798. 4101. What increase of facility did you find by the opening of the private trade to India? — Very great facility indeed. Formerly we could not bring any thing from the eastward ; they were under most severe restrictions, even in the time of war. When the king's ships had taken prizes to the eastward that had on board East-India produce, that East-India produce was under the necessity of being sold for exportation ; it was not allowed to be used in the colony; then the sales took place, and the property was put under custom- house locks and keys, and a bond was given for the due exportation of those goods ; and since the trade was thrown open, the Company's trade with India has declined very considerably, in consequence of the enterprize cf private individuals entering into that trade, and importing the same qualities and the same description of goods from India that the Company used to do, and they have undersold the Company ; and the consequence is, that the Company have not sold many goods for a length of time. When I left the Cape tiiere was a large quantity of goods belonging to the Company that have remained there from the time that Mr. Pringle died ; and they are now sell- ing in their public siles for what they can get for them, and they will not probably get one half the prime cost for them, 4102. What articles are they ? — Piece goods, Bengal goods. 4103. Can the Americans deliver any articles at the Cape? — No ; formerly, when there was a restriction upon the trade, the Americans used to come and buy all our prize-goods from ns, which were bonded for exportation. 4104'. Are you at the present moment prohibited from receiving silks, or any SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 523 any produce of China, except by those two Company's ships that toiicli 1 Ai)iil 1830. there ? — I believe so, direct fiom China ; that was so when I came away. Mr. D. Dijon. 4105. — {Mr. Dixon.) — Are you able to state what is the opinion of the merchants generally as to the advantages that would result from the opening the trade to China? — I can state that they are uniformly impressed with the idea that it would considerably benefit the colony, as is evident by the resolu- tions passed at a general meeting of the inhabitants held at Cape Town on the ^^d July IS'iO, under the sanction of the governor of the colony, that the teas would be got at considerably less prices than the Company sell them at the present moment, and that the consumption would be greatly increased, which would much benefit the colony. From the statement I have delivered, it appears that while the population at the Cape has been increasing, the consumption of tea has been gradually decreasing. In 1816, the amount of tea sold was 1^5,000 lbs., when the population was 88,000; and the amount in 18'28 was 77,000 lbs. when the population was 132,000. 4106. From what authority did you take the statement you have delivered in ? — The value and price of tea is taken from the custom-house decla- rations, and the information of the Report of the Commissioners of Inquiry, and the population from the same sources; with the exception of the two last years, which are taken from the custom-house returns only. 4107. To what causes do you attribute that great diminution ? — The great falling off in the relative value of interest and of labour may be ane cause, and the high price of tea is another. 4108. Then you mean to say, the price of tea remaining stationary, while the price of labour and the profits of capital are reduced, the means of consumption have been lessened? — Yes. 4109. Do you know whether the Company's monopoly extends to the Mauritius ? — I believe not. 4110. In the tables which you have made of the sales of tea by the Company at the Cape, and of the rate at which a private merchant could import it, have you had reference to the currency at the Cape, or to sterling money ? — To sterling money. 4111. Do you grow coffee at the Cape? — No. 4112. Do you import coffee? — Yes. 4113. Are you able to state whether the importation of coffee has increased during the period that the importation of tea has decreased? — It has been progressively increasing in quantum and decreasing in value. I have taken one or two years' statement of it, and I rind it is from 180,000 to 220,000 lbs. weight. 1 take the three years of 1825, 1826, and 1827, 4114. If more nankeens and silks from China were consumed at the Cape, would not the consumption of British manufactures be diminished ? — I do not think it would. The fact is, that the exportations from Great Britain 3 X of 524 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 1 April 1830. of British manufactures affect more the Company's trade in piece-<:^oocls from ,, ,~T7,'t^ ,, Bengal: but there would be still the same consumption from this country, Mr. A. M' Donald ^■c\\ i c r^\ ■ .^ i • V *i r' c r "^ and e\en ir the nankeens from Chuia were unported into the Cape, ho far as Mr. D. Dixon. i"egards silks I cannot say ; but decidedly I am of opinion, that the quantity of nankeens imported from China for the consumption of the colony would not interfere with any manufactures imported from this country ; but I am of opinion also, tliat by having those articles freely coming into the colony, an opportunity might be given for exportation of these articles by transit trade. 4115. Supposing that the population and the wealth of the Cape are both increasing, might not there be room for an increased importation of nankeens and of other articles from China, and also room for an increased exportation of British manufactures? — There is no question of it. 4116. Is it impracticable, under present circumstances, for parties at the Cape of Good Hope to obtain a supply of tea from the Americans? — The Americans have not accepted the reciprocity act, and they are not allowed to trade \ni\\ us at all. 4117- Have you ever received any tea at the Cape by ships coming from Sincapore or from Bengal ? — There is not a pound of tea allowed to be landed from any place (except, latterly, from London) except what is brought by the Company' ships. 4118. Are any other articles of China produce permitted indirectly to be imported into the Cape ? — There are other articles. 4119. Is the Committee to understand that the Cape of Good Hope is sup- plied exclusively with the produce of China by the East-India Company ? — No ; only the article of tea. 4120. Are they then supplied with other China goods through private merchants? — Through the Company's officers direct from Canton, from pri- vate sources, from Bengal, or from anywhere else. 4121. You were understood to state, that from the year 1S16 down to the present time there has been a progressive diminution in the consumption of tea in the colony of the Cape of Good Hope ? — The statement exhibits a little fluctuation, but a very considerable decrease in thirteen years ; it is not a re- gular progressive decrease. 4122. How are the duties levied on articles of import by the Company and by merchants generally ? — By merchants they are in the first place paid ad valorem. When a private merchant enters his goods for importation, he goes down with his invoices to the custom-house, and he gets a permit upon paying the duty upon his invoice ad valorem. When the Company import their tea, they get an indiscriminate order from the custom-house to land any quantity of tea tliey think proper, and then those teas are deposited in the Company's warehouses, and they pay the duties to the government upon the amount of the sales, and therefore it is impossible for an individual to know what quantity of teas the Company may have in store: they may have more or SELECT COMMITTEE of tiik HOUSE OF COMMONS. 5»5 or less tiian the consumption of the colony, and they generally have a greater I April 1830. quantity tluin is necessary for the consumption J but all that is known to the ^Tjln pubhc is through the medium of the custom-house, on which they pay their '" '^^J^ """ ' duties on their sales. jyj^_ jj dijo^. 4123. Are you aware whether the Company's agent at the Cape has ever granted a license for a ship to go from the Cape to Canton for tea ? — Never ; I think he never had it in his power. 412 1. Do you conceive that the circumstanceof only two of the Company's ships touching at the Cape has a tendency to raise to an undue amount the price of the various articles they bring from China?— No doubt of it. 4125. To what extent do you conceive it does that?. — It is impossible to say ; I think the article of tea could be sold at the Cape from 30 or 40 per cent, less than it is ; and nankeens and silks can be sold much cheaper , than they would be sold at the Company's warehouses, perhaps at 2.5 per cent. less. 412f). Do the Dutch inhabitants at the Cape consume as much tea as the English inhabitants ? — I believe they do. 4127. Is the use of tea pretty general there ? — Very much so. 4128. Have you ever made any estimate of how much is consumed per head? — {Mr. Dixon.) — According to the official returns it was formerly a pound and a half per head ; but that has decreased to veiy little above half a pound a head. 4129. Is not the quantity of tea imported by the Company into the Cape more than sufficient for the demand ? — I believe it is considerably more. 4130. Is not the price much more than the inhabitants can afford to pay? — No doubt it is. 4131. Are ships in the private trade to India in the habit of touching at the Cape ? — Ships from Bengal and Bombay are frequently in the habit of touching at the Cape ; the Company's ships may sometimes touch, but very seldom. 4132. Are you aware whether there is any order issued by the Company respecting their ships touching at the Cape ? — I am not aware of it from my own knowledge, but from common report I understand it is. THOMAS GORE LLOYD, Esq. Accountant-General of the East-India Company, called in, and examined. 4133. In the remittances made to the Company's Factory at Canton, there T. G. Lloyd, Esq. is the article of commanders' cotton-bonds £98,000, what is the nature of that transaction ? — The nature of that transaction is, that the Court of Directors have given a privilege to their commanders to load cotton for China, with which they are supplied by the Presidencies of India ; they give bonds for 3X2 this T. G. Lloyd, Esq. 526 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 1 April 1830. this at the Presidencies whence they lade, to pay for the same into the Canton treasury such an amount in tales. 4134. At what rate of exchange is that payment taken? — The rate of exchange at which it is taken there is according to the intrinsic value of the coins with which the Presidencies of India have suppHed the com- manders. 41o5. At how much per tale is that? — At the value of a rupee at the Mint-price of silver, which is a little better than 25., and their cotton-bonds are calculated at 210 sicca rupees for 100 dollars. 413G. Can you state how much per tale it makes on that transaction ? — About (js. 1(1. a tale. 4137. So that the commanders get the benefit of the ditference between the rate you have stated of 6s. Id. and 5s. Jd., which you stated the real exchange from China to be ? — The real exchange that 1 stated was 5s. Jd. for bills drawn upon England; a commander places the tale in China at Gs. Id. 4138. Is not the difference so much profit to the commander? — I con- ceive not, because he pays more for his tale than he would obtain it for in exchange ; he pays 6s. Id., whereas he could have obtained a tale by bill on England at 5s. Jd. 4139. If he pays this money into the Company's treasury at Canton, the lower the rate of exchange is, the higiier amount of sterling money he gets for the money he pays in ? — The operation is this, that he by iiis engagement pays so many tales into the China treasury, which in sterling money amount to 6s. Id. a tale ; if he obtained a tale by a bill upon England, he would place it in China at 55. Td. whereas now he places it at 6s. Id. 4140. For every tale that the Company's commander pays in he gets a sum in sterling money; if he gets 6s. Id. for the tale instead of 5s. Jd. for the tale, is not it so much for his benefit? — I apprehend the operation is mis- taken. The China commander has been advanced so many sicca rupees in India, for which he undertakes to pay into the China treasury so many tales at a stipulated rate of exchange ; therefore he pays a tale, which in sterling is G5. Id., that is, he places 6s. Id. in the Canton treasury, or gets credit for the tale at that rate ; but if he drew a bill upon England he would have the talc in his possession at 55. Jd. ■ 4141. Is not it clear that this money paid into the Company's treasury, costing the Company 6s. Id. per tale, is so much dearer to them than if they got it at the actually existing exchange of 5s. '7d. ; and is it not therefore so much loss to the Company ?— The Company could have obtained, by means of a bill on England, a tale at 5s. 'Jd. and they place it at 6s. Id. 4142. Tiierefore that is so much to the prejudice of the Company, and to the profit of the commander ? — It is so. 4143. In a note to your return, it is stated that " the cost of the supplies furnished SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COIMMONS. 52? furnislied to Cliina through India is here calculated at the intrinsic vahie o( 1 April 1830. the India coins at the Mint-price of standard value, instead oftlie rate affixed ^ to liiose coins by the Board of Commissioners for tlic Affairs of India;" in ■* ■^'- J-l"!i"i- what manner have the Board of Commissioners fixed those rates ? — Tiiey have fixed those rates in the arrangement for I lie separation of the accounts between territory and commerce, which by a clause in the Act of 1813 they were empowered to do ; tlie Act directed that the accounts shouhi be pre- pared upon that principle. 4144. Upon that principle the tale is taken at f)5. 10\d, at the present rate of exchange, is the Company justified under the Act of Parliament in charging the tea purchased with that £100,000 sterling, at a rate of exchange which gives a different value to the tale from that at which the bills were drawn ? — They are perfectly justified, inasmuch as the mode by which they have sup- plied their Canton treasury would, in that case, be by the operation of a mean that they have not used, or in a very limited way. 4167. Have they not drawn bills upon the treasury in England at a rate of exchange which gives the tale at about 5s. 7^. ? — They have calculated the tale to have been, furnished at that rate by bills. 4168. Is there any legal opinion to justify that construction of the Act of Parliament ? r>:iO EVIDENXE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 1 .\|)iil 1830. I'arliament? — I am not aware that there is, because the necessity for it has 'f /■• T , J r never been apparent i (t. Lloyd, Esq. '^^ tlGg. Suppose an adventure made by the Company in manufactured goods from England or from India, upon which their loss should be 500 per cent,, should you feel that the Act of Parliament was not strained by , charging the tale at a rate which would cover that loss ? — The instance is not very likely to arise; but certainly the mode which I have adopted would involve such an issue. But I apprehend Uie Company would never export goods upon which there may arise a loss of 500 per cent. 4.170' It appears that in ISl t the Board of Control interfered to settle the value of the rupee for the territorial accounts of the Company. This Act of Parliament, fixing that the teas should be put up at prime cost, was passed long before any such interference on the part o^ the Board of Con- trol, therefore how can the Company rest the construction of the Act of Parliament upon the decision of this Board of Control in 1814? — I do, inas- much as I conceive the mode which they adopted is the actual prime cost to the Company. 4171. Are you aware that in the evidence of the late Mr. Charles Grant, given before the Committee of Foreign Trade in 1821, he stated that the invariable custom of the Company for a century had been to value the tale at 65. Sd. ? — I am aware that he did state so, and they are so valued in our common transactions, but certainly not for the computation of the prime cost of tea for the upset price ; we should then have run into the errors which the Committee appear to think I have already run into. 4172. Then it was not so valued invariably in the upset price of tea? — Clearly not. 4173. To what other transactions did Mr. Grant's evidence refer ? — To our profit and loss accounts. 4174. Must not the question of profit and loss in mercantile transactions be determined by the prime cost and the sale prices? — It would certainly be dependent ui)on such an issue ; but in the computation that I have made I have assumed a rate for part of our supplies less than we pay for it ; but I should say that the computation of profit and loss upon an investment from China, since the rate afifixed by the Board for the coins of India, should be calculated in as far as regards the return to India at the Board's rate of exchange. 4175. Are you aware that it is the custom of the Company to charge part of the freight upon the woollens that they send from England upon the prime cost of the tea at Canton ? — It enters into the invoice amount of the export. 417f)- Docs it enter into the real charge ? — Clearly it has that efllect, because it forms part of the invoice amount, which on the other side pro- duces so many tales, and thus enters into the computation of Q>s. 4 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 1 April 1830. 4204-. Do the losses appear in the statement of the commercial freight? — No; the losses are stated distinctly in our computation of profit and loss 2. G.Lloyd, Esq. j.j^g Company's per-centage of loss since the year 1814 has been about f per cent. 4205. What rate of freight do you consider to fall upon each pound of tea upon the whole ? — Black tea, about 4<\d. ; green tea, about 5\d. 4206. Can you explain why the Company charge 3 per cent, upon the insurance, when the same insurance can be done in the market at 2^ per cent.? — I am not aware that it can be done at 2A per cent. But this rate of in- surance is submitted every year to our commercial committee ; there are many gentlemesi in that committee who are merchants, and they approve of the rate that we assume. 4207. How many years' interest in the putting-up price do you charge upon the tea? — We charge two years upon the cost and the insurance, one year upon the freight and demurrage. 4208. Do you conceive tiiat you are justified in charging two years' inte- rest by the Act of Parliament ? — I conceive that we are justified, inasmuch as we are obliged to keep one year's consumption in the warehouse j and that from the date of the shipment to the time we realize the produce of the shipment is more than two years. 4209. Does not the Act of Parliament specify that one year's interest only is to be calculated ? — No. 4210. How many years' consumption have the Company by them ? — One year's clear consumption. 4211. And one in transit ? — Yes. 4212. Then they have only two year's consumption, including the one in transit? — At the present time there are, I should think, 30,000,000 of lbs. in tiie warehouse. 4213. Is not the interest by Act of Parliament chargeable upon thearrival of the tea in England, and not before its arrival? — I conceive that the interest should be reckoned from the time they ship the tea to the time of its sale ; the Act of Parliament only says, lawful interest on money. 4214. Tiie words of the Act of Parliament are as follow: *' That it shall not be at any time hereafter lawful for the said United Company to put up their tea fur sale at any prices which shall upon the whole of the tea so put up at any one sale exceed the prime cost thereof, with the freight and charges of importation, together with lawful interest from the time of the arrival of such tea in Great Britain, and the common premium of insurance, as a com- pensation for the sea-risk incurred thereon." Having heard those words, will you state upon what authority it is that more than one year's rate of interest 7'. G. fjoi/tl. /■>(/. SELECT COMMITTEE oi- the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 535 interest upon the stock of tea is cliarged? — Because we keep a stock always 1 Apiii lb30. in the warehouse, and it is two years before tl)e import is sold. 4<215. Have you then two years' stock in the warehouse ? — At times. 421 G. Is it or is it not the fact, that interest upon a stock of tea calculated upon a coDsumptioii of two years is now charged upon the price? — I know that tea is not sold under two years in many cases. 4217. Do you charge interest for two years ? — Yes. 4218. Is it not sold till two years after its arrival in this country ? — Two years after its arrival, in great part. 4219. Will the teas of this season not be sold till 18S2? — Part of it may, but we have other tea that has been lonjier time in the warehouse. 4220. Are not the teas sold quarterly ? — Yes, they are sold in December, March, June, and September. 4221. With reference to the 24th of Geo. III. c. 48, at what bidding upon the upset price might teas be purchased according to those provisions r — At Id. per pound. 4222. At what excess upon the upset price is the Company satisfied to let the tea be sold? — At a farthing a pound under 3s. 4(/., and a halfpenny a pound above. 4223. If tlie teas are refused at the upset prices, are they subsequently put up without any price whatever ? — They are put up without price. 4224. When will the ne.\t sale be? — There is a sale just over ; the next sale will be in June. 4225. Will the sale in June IS^jO be of teas that have been in the Com- pany's warehouse two whole years at that period ? — Some may, and some may not. 4226. Will the greatest part be ? — I conceive that our calculation of two years is a fair average rate of interest for the whole of the period that the tea remains unsold. 4227. How much of the tea sold at the quarterly sales has been two whole years in the Company's warehouse? — I cannot tell. 4228. Is it any great proportion ? — I cannot tell what proportion without looking into it, 4229. Would it be possible to furnish the Committee with the exact infor- mation ? — Yes ; although the teas may be put up, they are not paid for, for two months afterwards. 4230. The Act of Parliament requires that the Company should have in its warehouses one year's full supply of tea for this country; do not you conceive that you have complied with the requisition of that Act of Parlia- ment by keeping the tea which is imported in one year to the same period in 53ii EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS J April 1830. ill tlie next year, and then putting it up? — I apprehend tiiat we sliould only , comply with the Act of Parliament by keeping a twelvemonth's consumption J Xj.Lloiid, /wYy ,T|^vays in the warehouse. 4231. Will you look at No. 32 of the papers presented in June 1829, and state how the prime cost of teas in that account is calculated ? — At fis. M. a tale. .:^? w-:? FOURTH REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS ON THE AFFAIRS OF THE EAST-INDIA COMPANY 1830. LIST OF WITNESSES. Lunae, 5° die Aprilis 1830. I Thomas Gore Lloyd, Esq. p. 540 John Craw/urcl, Esq. - - 547 FOURTH REPORT. THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the present State of the Affairs of the East-India Company, and into the Trade between Great Britain, the East-Indies, and China ; and to report their Observations thereupon to the House ; and who were empowered to report the Minutes of Evidence taken before them from time to time, to the House ; — • HAVE made a further progress in the matters to them referred, and examined several other Witnesses ; the Minutes of whose Evidence they have agreed to report to the House up to this 5th day of April, inclusive. 5th April 1830. 3Z MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Lunce, 5° die Aprilis, 1830. William Ward, Esq. in the Chair. THOMAS GORE LLOYD, Esq. Accountant-General of the East-India Company, again called in, and examined. 6 April 1830- 4232. Will you have the goodness to explain to the Committee more particularly the mode of computing the interest on the upset price of tea ? — T. G. Lloyd, Esq. 'pj^^ mode adopted is to charge an interest for six months upon the funds placed in China, for the provision of investment, from the time of their being placed there till the time of the arrival of the ships in England ; and secondly, to charge eighteen months' interest from the arrival of the ship in England till the realization of tlie sale proceeds in the Company's treasury : these two sums constitute a period of two years, which appears in a State- ment I formerly delivered in. It will be more clearly seen what my view is, if I deliver in an amended Statement, drawn out upon the principle I have now stated. [The "witness delivered in the same, xvJiich is as Jolloxcs .-] No. 1. SELECT COiMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 541 No. 1.^ — An Account showing the Rate per Tale at which Funds for the China Investment were provided in Season 1828-9. Balance of cash and available assets in China, end of season 1827-8, calculated at tiie rate per tale of that season, viz. 6s. 7'442cZ. per tale Suppliesjrom India and England, 18-28-9: Bengal : Invoice amount of cotton (calcu- lated according to the intrinsic value of the Sicca rupee at the ; mint price of silver, viz. ^s. arf. | per oz.) I 234,043 Freight of cotton by country ships, payable at Bengal, cal- culated at the same rate . . . . ] 20,280 Commanders' cotton bonds, do. do 9^,350 Bills drawn on Bengal, do. do.. . 562,592 Madras : Invoice amount of cotton, calcu- lated at the intrinsic value of the Madras rupee, as above.. 103,152 Ditto sandal-wood, do. do 14,198 Bombay : Invoice amount of cotton, calcu- lated at the intrinsic value of the Bombay rupee, as before . 94,291 Freight of cotton by country ships, payable at Bombay, cal- culated at the same rate .... 1,894 Commanders' cotton bonds, do. do 53,480 England : Invoice amount of consignments Bills and certificates drawn on the Court Supra-cargoes' commission on the above outward trade, pay- able in England Freight of consignments from India to China, as above, by Europe ships, payable in Eng- land 717,504 135.813 24,772 71,613 Total amount of supplies from India and England, including charges payable in India and England on account of the same £ 81,040 Tales. 1 2,131,98-2 2,213,022 Amount realized in China, I 1828-9: Produced in China, Tales Received . . do. Do. . . . do. Produced Do... .do. .do Do. . do. . . Received . . do. . . , Produced . . do. . . Received . . do. . . 850,518 326,718 1,964,421 267,980 65,728 379,005 184,159 2,164,133 484,514 Total amount realized in China for supplies of the year Deduct : Amount paid for interest in the year 244,827 6,687,176 6,932,003 411 Tales., j 6.931 ,59i EasUlndia House, ^th April 1830. or at 65. 4-624/^. per tale, or 4.S. 7*169^. per dollar. 3 Z2 Thos. G. Lloyd, Accountant-General. 542 5 April 1830. T. G. Lloyd, Esq. EVIDENCE ON EAST.INDIA AFFAIRS : N. 2. — Amended Estimate of an Estimate delivered in by Estimate of the Cost, Freight, and Charg-es of Cost in China, calculating the value at 6*. Ad. •G24, the actual cost of a tale in China, season 1828-9, as per Account No. 1 . (calcitlat/ng the suppltes from India to China according to the intrinsic value of the coins at the Mint-'price of silver) Insurance, 3 per cent, on cost, premium covered Interest, from the provision of funds in China to the arrival of the investment in England (six months on cost and insurance, at 5 per cent, per annum) Freight and Demurracre Expense of landing, housing, \varehouse-room, carting, preparing- for sale, and all charges of merchandize Interest, from the arrival of the teas in England to the esti- mated realization of the sale amount, eighteen months on cost and insurance, twelve months on freight and charges, at 5 jjer cent, per annum Supercargoes' commission, 2 per cent, on net sale amount, deducting charges East-India House, 5th April, 1830. Boliea. S. d. 9-G66 -299 -249 4-200 1-600 1-038 -261 I 5-313 Congo, Winter purchased^ and below Contract. S. d. 11-679 -361 -301 4-200 1-600 1-193 -394 1 7-728 4233. It appears then, that there is some enhancement of price in conse- quence of the tea being kept one year, inasmuch as the interest of the money is going on, and there is also the expense of warehouse-room ? — There is. 4234. Snp])osing any injury to occur to a cargo sent from Bombay, or from Engknul to ( anton, by which a loss is sustained upon the sale in China, should you reckon that loss as a part of tlie prime cost of the tea ? — Tliat is covered by the rate of insurance. 4235. Supposing that by bad })ackage, or by leakage, or by sliiftingof the cargo, or any of tiie accidents to wliich tlie cargoes arc liable, it arrived in a damaged state in China, and thereby was sold at much less than the price of the cargo, should you set that off in the prime cost of the tea purchased in Canton ? — It would sell at so much less, and consecpiently increase 1 lie value of the tale in that ratio, if not covered by the insurance. 423{). Under SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. tlie Witness in his Examination of the 31st March. each Species of Tea per Pound imported in the Year 1829. 5 April 1830. T. G. Lloyd, Esq. Congo Contract. Campoi. Souchong. Twankay. Hyson Skin. Hyson. s. d. S. d. S. d. s. d. s. d. S. d. 1 4-150 1 7-738 1 11022 1 4-000 1 4^466 2 2-720 -499 •610 -712 •495 •509 •826 -416 •509 -593 •412 .424 •689 4-200 4-200 4-200 5-250 5-250 5-250 1-GOO 1-GOO 1-GOO 1-600 b600 1-600 1-539 1-81G 2-070 b580 b616 2-408 -437 •479 -598 •422 •437 -826 2 0-841 2 4-952 2 8-795 2 1^759 2 2-302 3 2.319 TuoM.\s G. Lloyd, Accountaut-General. 423G. Under what provision of the Commutation Act do you charge interest for six months in China? — There is certainly no provision in the Lommutation Act ; but I conceive that to be a fair mercantile charge to make. The Act provides for the interest after the arrival, and the charge of interest till the arrival is a mercantile charge, an essential part of the prime cost. 4237. Is not the making such a charge expressly forbidden by the Act of Parliament ? — I think not. 4238. Is not the only charge of interest which the Act allows " lawful interest from the time of the arrival in Great Britain ?" — That is after the arrival ; but any merchant would say interest is part of the prime cost of the goods ; the prime cost includes interest upon the'capital employed. 4239. Do you charge interest upon the freight for two years .^— No, for one year. 4240. Is 544 EVIDENCE OX EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 5 April 1830. 4G40. Is not the principal part of the freight paid after the return of the ship to England ? — The freight is paid first by an impress before the ship T.G.Lloyd, Esq. (jgpai-ts ; secondly, thirty days after the clearing of the ship we pay a moiety of what is due, and sixty days after that the remaining moiety. 4241. What is the amount of impress paid on the ship ? — The impress is so much a ton. 4242. Is it a tenth part of the freight ? — No, I think not. 4243. Is it a twentieth part ? — It may be. 4244. Then the freight is charged with a year's interest, though the greatest proportion of it is not paid till after the ship has delivered her cargo? — After the ship has delivered her cargo. 4245. Is interest paid on the commissions of the super-cargoes? — None , at all. 4246. Upon what principle do you charge interest for a year upon the freight ? — Because it is not paid until after the arrival of the ship. If I were to charge as much as I do upon the cargo, we should be charging too much: the payments are made about three months after the ship arrives, and the teas are estimated to remain in wai'ehouse for eighteen months, so that in fact it is a short charge of interest. 4247. Does not the price of freight vary considerably in the diflerent ships employedby the Company ? — Yes. 4248. How do you settle the upset price, having regard to the difference of the freight ? — An average is taken, which is furnished to me by the officer at the head of the freight and shipping department. 4249. Does not the item of impress, which you state to be the first pay- ment on account made by the Company, amount to two months' wages paid to the whole ship's company, or is it any thing beyond that ? — It is not pre- cisely in my department, but I believe it to be so much per ton. 4250. Then the amount of impress will depend on the size of the ship and the number of crew ? — The size of the ship. 4251. Is not the tea that is put up for consumption often nearly three years from the time of its leaving Canton to the time of its being sold ? — Yes. 4252. Can you state what proportion of the whole quantity is kept for that period: — I cannot tell from recollection. 4253. What should you state as the average time ? — 1 cannot say any other than eighteen montlis, the period I have assumed in the accounts delivered in. 4254. Do you not conceive that by the Act of 24th Geo. III., supposuig the Company had a sufficiency of tea for one year's consumption, including that which is in tiieir warehouses and that which is in transitu, they would have SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 5i5 have complied with that Act of Parliament? — I believe they would, but I ■> April 1830. speak with some hesitation. 42,55. Then it is not necessary, under that Act of Parliament, tliat the tea ' ' "'^'^' "''' should be so long kept by the Company before it is sold? — The Company has been always anxious to promote the consumption of tea, and witli that view to be provided with an adequate supply for any increased demand. 4256. Are you not aware that, looking at the words of the Act, it is stated that the Company shall from time to time send orders for the purchase of such quantities of tea, and provide sufficient ships to import the same, as being added to the stock in their warehouses, and to the quantities ordered and not arrived, shall amount to a sufficient supply for the keeping of a stock, at least equal to one year's consumption according to the sales of the last preceding year, always beforehand ? — The Act says so, I perceive. 4257. Supposing the tea purchased by the Company be paid for by bills drawn upon England or drawn upon India, what is the average duration of those bills ? — Bills have been drawn on various terms : sometimes they are a twelvemonth after date, at other times at twelve months after sight, and in other various ways ; on India they are drawn at thirty days' sight. 4258. When bills are drawn in Canton in January, payable by the Court of Directors in December following, is the interest, according to the account you have given in, charged from the January, when assets were received in China for the purchase of the teas, or from December, when the bills were satisfied by the Court of Directors ? — Not until the bill is satisfied. 4259. You have given in an Account of the profit and loss of the East- India Company's trade between Europe and India, Europe and China, and China and India. There is a note in that, saying, that " had the Company's profit and loss accounts been made up at the mercantile rate of exchange as ascertained from the rates at which bills have been drawn from London on Calcutta in each year, instead of the rates fixed by the Board of Commis- sioners for the Affiiirs of India as regards the repayment of territorial advances, the above Account of their trade between Europe and India would have exhibited a profit of £44(3,114 instead of a loss of £2,009,872, making a diflierence of £2,465,986 ;" and then it goes on to say, that " the profit on their China trade would also have been increased in the same period by the sum of £1,545,943, making a total difference of £4,01 1,929." How is the calculation made of that last item, by which the profit on the China trade would have been increased by the sum of £1,545,943 ? — Because a great part of the supply for the China investment is furnished through India, in reimbursement of territorial charges paid in England, and adjusted at the rate of exchange fixed by the Board of Commissioners for the Afifairs of India. 42C0. Therefore the only element which constitutes this difference, is the difference between the real exchange on Calcutta, and the nominal exchange fixed by the Board of Control ? — Exactly. 42G1. The 546 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 5 April 1830. 4,QC, | . The only difference being the difference between the rate of exchange fixed by the Board of Commissioners, and the real rate of exchange between 7. f'. Uoyil, Esj. Lq,jJo^ jjpJ Calcutta, how is this circumstance accounted for, that upon the sum of £l6, 000,000 sterling trade between India and London there is a difference arising from that circumstance of £2,00'1',650, whilst upon the trade between China and London of £18,264,000 there is only a difference of £151',500 ; how is that accounted for, as the same element of difference entering into both calculations, the rate of difference ought to be propor- tionate ? — It depends upon the amount that has been respectively apphed to the two trades of those sums for which we pay the high rate of exchange. This high rate of exchange attaches only to the repayment of tlie advances made from commerce to the territory ; there have been other funds applied to the China investment upon which the Board's rates of exchange have no operation. Equally so in India ; all commercial funds do not enter at all into the computation, only those sums arising from the re-payment of the advances which the commerce has made to the territory. 4262. Why do you take in your calculation of the profit and loss of the East-India Company's trade between India and China, the prime cost at 6a\ Srf., ■when you state that tiie prime cost was called by you the sum which the tale cost the East-India Company, delivered into the treasury at Canton from the investments they have made? — Because upon the whole of the transactions from the year 18 14 down to the latest jieriod, the tale has been proved to cost, within a fraction, (iv. Sd. 4263. Then what you state is, that the tale delivered into the treasury at Canton has, ever since the year 1814, cost the Company Qs. Sd. upon the average ? — Within a fraction. 4261'. When you state that the average value of the tale since 1814 has been 6.9. Si/., is that average made up of all the bills drawn upon England and India, as well as upon all the commercial transactions of the Company at Canton : — Upon every transaction that has drawn money into the treasury at Canton. 4265. Then, of course, it would have been higher if it had not been for the exchange having fallen fi'om Canton upon England ? — In whatever degree the excliange has fallen, the Company has had the benefit of it upon all the bills the .supercargoes have drawn. 4266. Supj)osing that the whole of the credit created to the Company at Canton had been j)roduced by the sale of investments from India or fi-om England, the tale must have been valued higher than Gs. Hd. ? — By taking a part of the credit by bills of exchange, certainly that has tended to reduce the value of the tale. 426'/. Did you mean to say that the whole benefit arising from the fall of the exchange accrued to the Comj)any, or to tiie consumers of tea in this country ? — W the Company obtain money at a low rate of exchange, that benefit SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 017 benefit rests with them ; but the consumer of tlie tea lias the benefit of it in •') April IH.-jr). the upset price. 4208. In what way does tlie Company decide upon the quantity of tea ' ' ' ''' ' ' '' they will j)ut up at the sales ? — That decision docs not rest with my depart- ment ; it is with our Commercial Committee, which I do not attend ordinarily. 42G9. Since cotton is no longer received as revenue at Bombay, have not the Company been in the habit of buying cotton there to send to China? — They have purchased cotton to send to China. 4270. Are you aware at what rate of exchange the price of the cotton at Bombay is brought into the account at tiie India-IIousc, in the prime cost of the tea, or how is that settled ? — I cannot exactly state from recollection ; I think it is 216 rupees for 100 dollars. 4271. In the transactions between Bombay and Canton, do you take the whole cost in tales, or do you take partly the prime cost as valued at Bom- bay, and partly the value in China ? — The cost of the cotton would be the number of rupees we pay for at the Board's rates. 4272. Then you would debit commerce with that advance at the Board's rate ? — Yes. JOHN CR/VWFURD, Esq. again called in, and examined. 4273. Are you aware of the mode in which the mining was carried on at John Crmvfnrd, the island of Banca ? — Yes. />7 427 1. It is stated in a discourse addressed by Sir Stamford Raffles to the Society of Arts at Batavia, in the year 1815, that almost all the operations connected with the process of mining and refining the metal are performed by the Chinese ; does that fact consist with your knowledge? — All that is well done is done by the Chinese ; and by far the greater part of the whole is done by them. 4275. Up to what ])eriod are you able to give this information? — I can state it from the best information to the year 1825. 4270. It is also stated by Sir Stamford Raffles, that the Chinese preserve on Banca their original habits of industry, enterprize, and perseverance, and that they are amongst the most useful of the inhabitants, and indispensable in the labours of the mines; does that also consist with your knowledge ? — Perfectly. 4277- Is the mining in Banca carried on in a very simple manner, or is there a great deal of machinery used? — A great deal of machinery. 4278. Is that made by the Chinese ? — It is. There are no otiier people in that part of the world who have the least notion, either how to construct machinery or how to make use of it. 4279- In a letter from Sir Stamford Raffles to Lord Buckinghamshire, in the year 1813, he states that the island of Borneo is rich in precious metals, 4 A and 548 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 5 April 1830. and that it possesses on one convenient spot a population of nearly 100,000 ~ — Chinese, who work the gold mines on their own account, and who would John Crnwfurd, „\^([\y submit to, and have invited British regulation ; does that consist with your knowledge of the state of Borneo ? — The existence of a very large population working gold mines consists with my knowledge, but not the last fact. 4280. Was there any export of this gold from Sincapore ? — A large import and export every year. 4281. Are you aware whether it is the fact that the Chinese work the gold mines on their own account? — Yes, exclusively on their own account. 4282. Do they acquire land in Borneo, and become permanent settlers ? — There is so much land in Borneo that any body may have it; but they are permanent settlers in the island. 4283. In what part of the island are those goldmines? — In the country lying between a place called Pontianpa and Sambas, towards the south-western part of the island. 4284. Is it near the coast ? — Not very far from the coast, at the foot of the mountains. The gold is from streams, or found in alluvial land. 4285. You have stated that it has been exported from Sincapore ; will you state the course of the trade ? — There is a large quantity of gold brought from various quarters to Sincapore by the Chinese, and by the natives of Celebes, and by the Malays, but the greater bulk of it is produced through Chinese industr}'. The Chinese, I ought also to observe, are employed in the same way on the eastern coast of the Malay peninsula. 4286. Can you state the amount of the export of gold from Sinca- pore? — I think it has generally amounted to as much as 1,000 pounds weight troy. 4287. Ill a letter addressed by Sir Stamford Raffles to Mr. Ramsay, the Secretary of the East-India Company, in the year 1813, he states, that " a great proportion of the trade between China and Batavia is now carried on by Chinese capitalists trading direct from Anioy and the northern ports of China, with which a constant intercourse is kept up ; and it would be impos- sible to restrict a trade which appears to have been so long established, and whicii proves so essential and advantageous to all concerned in it." Does your oj)inion concur with the opinion so given by Sir Stamford Raffles? — Precisely ; that forms a branch of the junk trade that I formerly endeavoured to describe to the Committee. 4288. Do you agree with them in opinion that it would be impossible to restrict a trade which has been so long establislied, and Avhich proves so essential and advantageous to all concerned in it? — That is my opinion. 4289. In a letter of Sir Stamford Raffles from Bencoolen, dated the 17th of July 1820, there is contained the following statement: — " What you ob- serve witii respect to British cottons through this port to China, is a most important SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. .0 19 important question; the affair is perfectlypractica])le, and iiotliing- more easy. ') April 183(). Upwards of 10,000 tons of raw cotton are annually sent to Chiiui from our -^- territories in India ; wiiy should we send our raw produce to encourage the ' C?v/7//wv/, industry of a foreign nation at the expense of our manufacturers? ]f India ' ''^' cannot manufacture sufttciently cheap, England can, and it is idle to talk of the cheapness of our manufactures, unless we can bring them into fair com- petition. I see no reason why China should not be in a great measure clothed from England; no people study cheapness so much, and if we can undersell them, we have only to find the way of introducing the article. Tiie monopoly of the East-India Company in England, and of the Hong mer- chants in China, precludes the idea of any thing like fair competition in our own ships, or in the port of Canton. Not but the East-India Company can, and perhaps will assist as far as in them lies, but their ships are too expensive. The articles would also pass through the Hong merchants before they reached the general trade, and commerce and the intermediate profits would form another barrier." Do you agree in the opinions stated in that letter ? — Not in the whole of them. 4290. Will you state in which you agree, and how far you differ from them ? — I (lifter from the doctrine contained in the early part of it, that we ought not to encourage tl:e industry of a foreign nation at the expense of our own. I do not know what is meant there by the industry of a foreign nation. If by this industry is meant that of the natives of India, who are not foreigners, but British subjects, I agree entirely in thinking that it is very practicable to supply China with our cotton manufactures, and in the probability of our contributing very materially towards clothing China from England. 4291. Are you aware of any difference in duty which exists between tea sent out of China in foreign bottoms, and tea sent out in bottoms of that country? — I cannot specify exactly what the duties are in each case; but I know there is a mode of evading the duty altogether on the part of the junks. I also know that the junks pay no port-charges. 4292. You have paid considerable attention to the general state of the commerce of the eastern world ? — I have. 4293. Has your attention been directed to the China trade, and the trade in tea especially ? — Yes ; for a good number of years I have paid particular attention to the tea-trade. 4294. Are you enabled from that attention, and the observations you have made since your return to Europe, to furnish any further information to the Committee on the subject, in addition to the evidence you have already given ? — I have prepared a good number of documents upon the subject of the tea-trade, which I beg now to offer to the Committee. [The "witness delivered in several Papers, Jt-om No. 1 to No. 22, a)id the same were I'ead, asjolloxv.j 4 A 2 No. . - .550 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 5 April 1830. John Crmvfurd, F.Sq. No. 1. — Comparative Statement of the Prime Cost of the East-India Company's and American Teas at Canton, for the Year 1821-2 For the Company's Prime Cost see " Ac- counts relating to the Tea Trade, No. 4," Ordered by the House of Commons to be printed, 14th May 1824 ; and for the American, " Statement of the American Trade at the Port of Canton, Season 1821-2." The Tael in the American Account is reckoned at the rate of 72 Taels for 100 Dollars, or Gs. nearly. TEAS. Quantities. E. I. Company's Prime Cost. American Prime Cost. Excess of E. I. Com- pany's Prime Cost. Total. Per 11>. Per lb. Total. Total. Percent. Bohea Congou Souchong. . . . Sonchi Twankay .... Hyson-skin . . Hyson Young Hyson lbs. 1,653,099 19,442,034 69,387 37,494 3,678,040 168,620 665,789 31,976 £. 65,013 1,404,763 7,645 3,303 263,639 12,727 92,251 3,374 s. d. 9-43 1 5-34 2 2-44 1 9*14 1 5 "20 1 6-11 2 9 -25 2 1 -32 i. d. 5-94 1 2-58 1 0-95 1 -95 11 -88 10-8 1 9 -60 1 4 74 f. 40,952 1,181,103 3,744 2,023 182,062 7,587 59,928 2,230 £. 24,061 223,660 3,901 1,280 81,577 5,140 33,323 1,144 58 18 104 , 63 44 67 53 51 25,746,439 1,852,715 — — 1,479,629 373,086 — Note. — Sonchi is a variety of black tea not found among the American exports, nor in the Canton price-currents. It is a variety of souchong, and therefore calculated at the same price. The American teas embrace those which are sent to the Continent, such as twanka}' and congo, which may account for the high price of the latter, as that consumed in Holland is alleged to be equal in quality to that of the East-India Company. No. 2. — Comparison between the Company'.s Invoice Price.'; of Tea, at the re.spective Rates of (h. 8d. sterling, and at tlie rate of 72 taels to IIX) dollars, each of 4.v. Sd'Tii. YEARS. East-India Company's Invoice Price. Invoice Price, at 7:i Tael.s to 1(K) dollars. Difference. i819-18-20 1820-1821 1821-1822 1822-182.3 £. 1,877.102 1,8'.)C,,17C. 1,852,715 1,924,738 £. 1 .C)C.C).'.MO 1 ,(i8;5,882 1 ,r3 15,020 1,708,'.)75 £. 210,450 212.594 207.089 21.5,70."> No. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COiMMONS. N«i. 3.— CoMi-AiiATHK St.\TKMENT of flic (iuantilies of (iroon 'IVa exported iVoni Canton in the Season 1821-2, by tlie East-India Company, and by the Citizens of tlie United States. " Accounts relating to the Tea Trade," ordered by the House of Commons to be printed, 14th May 1824 (No. 4.) — Statement of the American Trade with Canton in the Season 1821-2. T E A S. Twankay Hyson Skin.. Hyson Young Hyson Gunpowder ., Imperial By the By East-India Company. tlia Americans. /6.S-. Ibx. 3,678,040 28,000 108,(320 2,.548,40() 005,78y 752,660 31,570 2,024,.')33 — 213,806 — 510,800 4,-544,425 6,078.265* * Excess by Americans 1,533,84-0 lbs., or one-third more. The total quantity of Tea exported by the East-India Company was 25,746,339 lbs., of which the greens constitutetl 17 in 100. The total quantity of Tea exported by the Americans was 9,292,400 lbs., of which the greens constituted 65 in 100. o Ap 18.30. John ( r/^ 3 5,*,", ■^ %%% 3 2^'^ 3 q 71 2 1 81' 65 per cent. 3 10-57 3 4-10 3 5-40 2 9-63 3 2-55 3 4-04 2 I -87 63-6 3 1-26 2 7-05 3 0-22 2 8-34 2 7-05 2 8-18 8-70 64-3 2 8-60 2 3-94 2 7-05 2 3-16 2 3-81 •2 3-83 8-70 74-3 2 1-61 1 7-14 1 7-14 1 5-59 1 4-56 1 6-SO 2-49 77 1 7-40 1 6-11 1 11-02 1 6.63 1 7-40 1 5.69 0-93 73 10-86 — — — — 8-44 0-93 153 9-31 8-28 8-79 8-28 9-83 9-59 6-21 64 2 4-52 2 2-38 2 4-71 2 0-46 2 1-96 2 0-36 1 5-46 79tV5 No. 15. (B.) 5G0 EVIDENCE OX EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: ipr 1 ]830. John Cravfitrd, Exq. No. 15 (B). — Comparative Statement of the Prices of the East-India Company's and American Teas, reckoned upon the Quantity sold at the East-India Company's Sales, for the Ten Years ending with 1828-9. — {See New York Pricj-Currents, Paper No. 15; and No. 41 of "Papers relating to the Finances of India, and the Trade with India and China." February 1830.) YEARS. Quantities. E. I. Company's Sale Price. American Sale Price. Excess of Company's Price. lbs. £. £. £. 1819-20 ... 25,960,287 3,584,986 1,543,888 2,041,098 1820-21 ... 26,095,234 3,626,193 1,486,849 2,139,344 1821-22 ... 28,024,362 3,987,286 1,759,548 2,227,738 1822-23 ... 27,599,886 3,899,416 1,881,607 2,017,809 1823-24 ... 27,632,044 3,903,594 2,234,016 1,669,578 1824-25 ... 28,467,160 4,010,051 2,295,296 1,714,755 1825-26 ... 29,433,211 3,977,802 2,161,101 1,816,701 1826-27 ... 29,279,613 3,702,839 2,695,974 1,006,865 1827-28 ... 29,687,856 3,516,720 2,199,264 1,317,456 1828-29 ... 30,102,217 3,497,345 2,329,397 1,167,948 Totals ... 282,281,870 37,706,232 20.586,940 17,119,292 Average ... 28,228,187 3,770,623 2,058,694 1,711,929 JVote. — The kinds of tea respectively consumed by ourselves and by the Americans difter so much, that it would not be possible to institute a comparison, in all respects accurate, between them. In the Canton price-currents the teas called Congo, Campoi, and Twankay, are invariably quoted at the same prices, and on an average arc seven per cent, under the price of Souchong. The teas tlms named form the bulk of our con- sumption ; and to meet any objection as to quality between the Company's teas and those of the Americans, I have considered all the teas in question as of equal value with the American Souchong. The diminution in the excess of the Company's prices beyond those of the Americans in the latter years of the statement, arises from two circumstances, — a rise in the price, and probably in the quality of the American Souchong tea, upon a comparison witli which the great bulk of the Company's teas is reckoned; and a fall in price in tlic Company's teas, without a corresponding increase of con- sumption. No. 16. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 561 ■^ t_ . o o ^ is £ ■^ S ^ -s «^ J Co i% Ol .s 00 .- — Pu t^ a •^ o 00 CO OI '30 '30 o -a .2 C '^ 3 S ? ?? S ■g ^ ^ Q .s CO O ri c »i a cu ->, =« t S ai 3 re ^ O ^ !=! . S « S "-J .-s eu ts s - ^ o o = "S a 1 ^ " s < TO Q^ ic c/3 o o . — - ^ o Pm «0 o J3 o c o bJ3 (— I 3 0) <:m i-s 3 O rn r-« Oj lO o ^^ a CS r^ u a a o fa -a 01 1) I* .X3 H Oh ►:= — 4) -a z s < S o o tn V t^ '.0 -f Tf i>. -r -f >o c h3 iZi l^ 01 01 — ■ CO CO g. < c^i^ '^^ CO !.>. ^_^ cr^ -i<__ co_^ s . H ^ — " tC tD oo" TT — " 0" >o O 0) ^1 O H f ^1 -^ '^ •>• >-< .— 1 00 •—> 01 W s »- ti 'M -^ -H O C-1 O O O C» O C5 CO o t^ -^ o 1 X H "S^ 1 - H U 'S IJ CO GO CO ^3 Ci OD O) 1 1 Ch o (>) CI (N „";^ CO "H 'M c; t: >o p^ -H V < -H Tl CO 01 3^ t>. •>! l-H ^ CO 0_ Sl^ •^^ Q0_^ t>j ~^ --< o •% iz; H "^ i^r 01* *>• t^ w to CO 01 O lO -- ^ CO CO ^ Tfi l-H .s r—< CO 1—1 01 1 J p.^ (N £ »>.'M-Hcocoj>.-ri-H V ^ CO ip --Tl C-. ^ t4 *5 dii)>h.cooo 1 n^ GOGOOt^-HGOGOO 1 5£ «,«' COOCOC^^OCOCO 1 ^ T3 O U l-H 1— ( f-H I— ( F-^ 1 CO C5 "O CO ll^ OOCOt>.Cr. flMGOr-- SJ '>> , 0^ o-i^ --__ 00__ CO_ (M C0_^ 1 H <=^ co" gT '^'' 0" tC ^" 0" t>. O H vTi CO CO 00 (N -H 2 a oi CO in o\ Tfl 1 o\ CO '•5 uO 00 •* QO iM -^ "O ^ c ^2 -0 00 -7^ CO 1^ op 1^ 11 tM -e ooodsoocO'^o 1 2 B 1 (S H Ph oi -^ C.ooGOC5t>.co>ni-o !>. hi iO <— 1 ^-* Ci t>» 00 e5 fM CO C"- Ci lO 00 't' *3 H ^ CO 00 "^ *>. J5 (M -H 00 O H 'T'l t>. — « CO CO >- -H >— < c ^ ^^ (M - I--. F— I 1 o sss^iss^g a> .a S 7] "^ l^ (N (fj CO !M CM !M TT 1 £ (S 69 O-^p-H-^ — -HC^(N OT H (MC01>»C5>OC0C0>O h- r-.WOOCOTPO'Mtl f— I H 000--^J>.00000 OA ^ ^s .,.,-, .^ ^ HH ^ GO 'M >X -^ — CO Tl* -M H t^ -^ ■^ -^ -z; Z ^^ t^ — CM ^ CM 0_ '^ < CO TP rt s S c^ CO Qf • • • • • • • ^ • • • • • • * * • I * r- u> • OT I b£ >^ ^ t/J < • -. .-. C rt C/} ■s Is u g ?. §hJ -S S 5 §. H * C S '^ ^ tn ^ 1 u O! H K t c -. 3 a H April 1830. "^ 5 « J= r- .— rt *-> t- 1. i> ice- ghe cou urat &.:s^ y a rt §•52 £ -S u- 3 5" P S U = j._o a a *3 1) re cs ■•5 !S »^a> c* g t- ^^ s 3 ^u-r C m ,. >> S^ ^H a; > J3 a of tl ional of certa cS 1^ ■ S'csis re ~ u 3 ggSg rt .-- 7: 0) .5:3 IS ■*^ at th e levi ted, 1 md, f „^ w cj -y ?; ^ = ^ ^ "* ^3 a -^i Qj 1^ ^— )^ "S a a 2 5 p d ^ TfS '"-30.3 a -2 =* 'S-e 'S J3 en a g fct q •«^ "^ J5 ~ s 3 a; " m = S 2 £ i "ZS "C > a Ij-ri p-^n a •- ^im CO Lh 2 t- a ^1 ^=2g \ '• a nJ ^ r* '^ > ■^ nJ 'C ' ^ > P ^ s ci sm EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS 5 April 1830. ■ n John ( 7-a.it/urd, •- Esq. I < o M CI ^3 u "a r3 c a .s o en o» c Ul ■" 1— ( -s ^ u ■^ H S: Cm tn c (U -^3 w o 3 U o u. O u .s 4-1 c*. o H Z Pd .*i U H 1^ H -. > w r; CD__ U f^ CO CO CO »-* c^ CI CO o Th 00 Ol 05 t^ OS ■* Q _: r^ -:f CI CO 1^ CO •^ C2 o CO o 00 oo C) "a Z e2 «rt -J CC CO f^ o" d V.O o 00 IC 00 OS i> CO oo CO lO CO CO CO O Th 00 CD c L^ CO CD ft H- .2 od" cT ai < fe=co 00 o oo CO w .5 .a ^ co" r^ « c ^. CI d e» D C3 05 „ M CI o ., r^ OS Tl- lO r-( CO r^ •t C32 00 i^ CO oo 00 . t^ CO ^ t^ CO 00 CO CD r^ CI CO CC i; o CO crT CI oo o CO 1> o rH lO o J3 c< Oi <£) t^ »o t-t CI r* 'O -* t^ H CO o CD_ 00 CI r^ o CI oo cs lO ■* CO >+ lO lO CO r^ t^ 1^ J^ « w CT CI CI c d CI CI CI CI CI 2" CO C V 3 t-H C^H C 0) " o i OS 00 •H. > e» t^ ■* a> to !« «; CO o a. p:! = |- ■ni oo" CO «3 CO CO 't >o u iJ K O CO < Q 1 CO 3 1 1^ 00 to CD :i r; "# CO CO^ o a> -CCO »■*» lO r» OS h-4 •5 £^ eg ■* OS S5 T? co" co" ta . 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CO < CJ •s CJ o < c •5 o £ -; tc c: CC a c n OS •c •*^ c ^ c • -« Ml ■*^ o fa .r; '^J ■& s T3, 3 c a OS £ >^ o a, CJ 3 ^ -c H - OS a -a o ^ c- OS M J3 m Cm O ■a o OS 3 B a r, P. « c CS u J= a 4^ c o => 5 O ° CJ w o D u M - K E - o h-l c O SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 5(JS No. 18. — Account of the Purchase and Sale of the East-India Company's Investments .5 April lb30. of Tea for Four Years. John Cranjiird, Esq. Dr. J 819-20 18-20--21 182 1-22 1822-23 To prime cost of 1 10,247,443 lbs. of Tea, purchased at Canton in the seasons 181'J-20 to 1822-23, both inclusive — salaries and table-expenses of the factory — other charg'es in China — charges in England — freight and demurrage — interest — insurance — loss sustained by the Company on the occasion of the fire at Canton 1822 Balance hi Company's favour £. 7,551,331 363,433 223,.3G3 917,044 2,112,067 934,237 233,546 380,133 12,715,154 2,641,229 £ 15,356,383 By sale of 104,084,203 lbs. of tea in the years 1821-22 to 1824-25, inclusive — proportion of costs and charges upon 6,163,240 lbs. of tea, being the excess of the purchases above the sales Sale price per lb. 2*. '-Jjjjjd. The average sale price on the four years as given in No 42 of Papers relating to the Finances of India, &c. is 2*. 10 -Odd., a dift'erence of -^^^ of a pemiy. By Balance in favour of the Company, <£*2,641,229. Cr. £. 14,645,559 710,824 £ 15,356,383 Note. — The documents from which the account is drawn are the following: "Ac- counts relating to the Tea Trade," ordered by the House of Commons to be printed, 14th May 1824, Nos. 2, 4, and 6. "Papers relative to the Trade between India and China," 4th June 1829, Nos. 16, 17, 31, 32 and 33. According to this account, the annual profit of the Company on Tea down to 1824-5 was dP660,307, from which would have to be disbursed the interest on the bond-debt, and the dividends on stock, which on the four years from 1821-2 to 1824-5 amounted, per annum, to =£'777,550, (Papers relating to the Finances of India, &c. No. 21, February 1830) leaving, therefore, a deficiency of =£'117,243. The only defective item in the account is the freight, which is evidently under-rated ; because from the whole amount of it, given in the Parliamentary documents (Papers relating to the Trade with India and China, June 1829, Nos. 16, 17, and 31), the proportion deducted from the tonnage returning from India with cargoes is taken at the same rate as the toiuiage 4 C returnin" 5G4> EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 5 April 1830. Jo/i7i Crmcfurd, h.sq. returning from China. Now nearly the whole tonnage employed in conveying Tea to England consists of large ships, at the hij;liest rates of freight, and especially includes the Company's own ships, the most expensive of any ; whereas in the Indian tonnage a num- ber of vessels taken up at low rates of freight are comprehended. For example, the East-India Company, within the period included in the account, received tenders for between 24,000 and 25,000 tons of shipping, and took up what they wanted at £9.. As. Brf. per ton (Minutes of Evidence before the Committee of Lords on the Trade with India and China, 1820 and 1821, page 158), while they were paying on the average of their ships from China, exclusive of demurrage, £21. 11*. If/. (An Account of the Rate of Freight per ton paid by the East-India Company from China on the average of the whole tonnage of the years 1822 and 1823 — ^East-India House, 26th April 1824.) Were the necessary deduction made on this account, the profits on the Tea-trade would certainly not be adequate to the payment of the dividends on the capital stock alone, which on the average of the four years referred to, amounted to d£'62',),539 per annum. It is obvious that the payment of the dividends and of the interest of the bond-debt must fall exclusively on the profits of the tea, because there are no other commercial profits, a fact which can be explained in a very few words. The Company's exports from China, besides tea, were always trifling in amoimt, and the profit, if any, of course trifling also. Of late years they have ceased altogether. With respect to the imports into that country from this, the Company themselves showed, and at the very period to which the account refers, that there was not only no profit, but a loss, which on an average of six- and-twenty years, amounted to £1,668,103 (Minutes of Evidence on India and China Trade, Lords' Committee, page 118). Neither, it may fairly be supposed, is the India Trade carried on in a profitable manner. We have the Company's own testimony to this effect, down to nearly the close of the last charter, when their accounts exhibited a loss of =£"355,846 per annum (Papers relating to East-India Affairs, East-India House, 8th April 1810). Nor is it reasonable to conclude that now, with more numerous and active compethors), and a greatly-diminished trade, that this branch of commerce can be attended with a profit, however trifling. No. 19. — Comparative Statement of the Average Prices of the Company's and Private Trade Teas imported in the ships Macqueen, George the Fourth, Marquess Huntly, Lord Lowther, Castle Huntly, Marquess Camden, and Orwell, as sold together at the East-India Company's September Sale 1829. East-India Company. Privilege Tea. Difference per lb. Difference per cent. Congou *. d. 2 2-86 S. d. 2 3-88 d. 1-02 3tV Twankay 2 2'67 2 1014 7-47 28 3 10-66 3 11-32 0-66 'A JSJote. — "Sale List," by John Nicholson & Co., London. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 566 u OS -a c a O c o s -. as C/i en (M cr ■i: t— t S C 3 S (U >■ « -73 C n g .i a. S 3 3 Q C o o '-.^ c c o o T, "? s o. h F O tfl 60 U a o H Ed :« CO o (N 6 "tij = - S .-1 I ^ ,_, OO lO ^ lO r^ CO 00 -1- >n CI 00 CO 00 a-^w"" ® a , CO CO >o r; CO 00__ t CO "2 fil!i «rt o" lO CO T? tF <3S o" c« o >o « 00 CO 00 CO Th O CD C( to fl"l CO • 00 05 c< ..< OS 00 CO 0« to M «rt - CT) cS g Ci CO >o « ■* § cT CO 0. ■9. -a. Duty h pen ithou Pric imer. « £ u s^ c a ■u c go >• 5 CD O o O o O O o 1 8« 3 o OJ o o O o o o o I P>a t. f-l i-< fc-o" (U rt o. = 52. d 00 ^ 00 e< 00 o CD tioi 1 wi Jty ;ate oc ■* t^ cs CO c< t^ OS Sl^Qifl ■Wci 00 fH Ol o r1 CO CO 1 Red of Co Bame the c; c o !-• IH o o CO a. o >« CO OO •* 00 e< o o CO t^ 01 ^ t^ r-i 7i- <30 p American! with same Ami of Dut "W CO - 1-1 ^ lO ^ 00 00 OS 1 10 ei CO T^ ■+ -t CO CO OS 2! 0. CO o o o o CD >o lO op ^ ^ Tf Tt- "O p W2 1 "^ OS r^ t^ t^ t^ T^ t~» c* 1 s s o t~ e» t^ CO >o o rt^ =*^ g-'Sa "« O I^ CO 00 rH t^ CO rH 1 Is'' -• 1 ? c; CO •* vo lO •* "I- 00 CO b r^ Ji vo 00 ^ 00 CT ■+ >o ft ?-" o! 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"2 c 3 01 ea " es -5 c s C o bO 03 SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 567 Explanation of the Statements marked No. 20, (A.) and (B.) .3 April 1830. It does not appear from the reports of the merciiants at the out-porls that there will be any difficulty in an open trade in tea in levying an ad valorem duty upon it ; and the example of cotton is quoted in proof. A specific duty would, howe\er, in all probability, be much more convenient; and the example of the United States, which has collected the revenue on this principle for forty years, seems quite conclusive. The rates assumed in the statement marked (B ) are calculated on the basis of the present ad valorem duties, and are assumed at a high rate, for the purpose of giving, in the first instance, ample security to the public revenue. There can be little doubt, however, but that a more moderate impost would be more productive. Even in tJic United States of America the duties are considered by the statesmen of that country as much too high, as may be seen by the following extract from the reports of the Secre- tary of the Treasury in 1827: "The use of tea has become so general throughout the United States, as to rank almost as a necessary of life. When to this we add that there is no rival production at home to be fostered by lessening the amount of its importation, the duty upon it may safely be regarded as too high. Upon some of the varieties of the article it considerably exceeds lOO per cent., and is believed to be generally above the level which a true policy points out. A moderate reduction of the duty would lead to an increased consumption of the article, to an extent that, in all probability, would in the end benefit ra'her than injure the revenue. Its tendency would be to enlarge our trade in exports to China ; a trade of progressive value, as our cottons and other articles of home production (aside from specie), are more and more entering into it. It would cause more of the trade in teas to centre in our own ports, the present rate of dutv driving our tea-ships not unfrequently to seek their markets in Europe, not in the form ijf re-exportations, but in the direct voyage from China. It would also serve to diminish the risk of the United States ultimately losing any portion of a trade so valuable, through the policy and regulations of other nations." But even with the high duty which is proposed in Sketch (B.), there will be a con- siderable saving to the public, as may be easily shown. The cost of the 30,269,498 lbs. of tea in 1828-29 to the public was as follows: vis. Sale price £3,5-7,056 Duty 3,515,312 Total ^7,042,368 By the duty proposed in the Sketch, the cost will stand thus : Sale price ^2,357,047 Duty 3,702,436 Total ^6,0.59,483 This will produce a saving to the consumer of ^£"082,887, which in all probability will be laid out in an additional purchase of tea ; if so, it will add 12,622,360 lbs. to the pre- sent consumption, making the whole 42,891,858 lbs. Whether the price fall or rise, the public revenue, with specific duties, is sure to increase. With the augmented consump- tion now supposed, it would be enhanced to the extent of i?l, 543,913, or amount in all to X^5,246,349. In a word, under the proposed plan, the consumption and revenue of the kingdom in tea would each be augmented by above 40 per cent. John Cranficrd, Esq. 56S EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS; 5 April 1830. John Crawfiiid, Esq. No. 21. — An Account of the Amount of Duties of Customs and Excise received for the Six Years ending ARTICLES. 1823. 1824. 1825. Cloves, mace, &c Coffee •••» •• £. 23,324 17,677 190,664 3,850,558 £. 25,393 23,513 282,495 3,865,099 £. 19,063 22,567 304,097 4,030,439 Sii ""ar Tea Note. — Accounts relating to the Trade between Great Britain and the East- The duties on all the articles except tea, have No. 22. — Co.MPARisoN of the Duties on Coffee, Cocoa, Sugar, Spirits and London Price- Current, TEA. Duty per Cent. COFFEE. Duty per cent. COCOA. Duty per Cent. Bohea Congo kind, &c Congo, comnion.... C'ongo, fine Pekoe kind Do. Campoido.... Campoi, good Sotichong Twankay, common. Do. good Do. fine Hyson kind Hyson Skin Do. g-ood .... Hyson, common. Do. g-ood .... Do. fine \'oimg Hyson .... (iunpowder 96 96 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 Jamaica triage Do. middling' Do. fine Dominica, ordinary Do. middling Do. fine Berbiee triage Do. middling Do. fine St. Domingo La Guayra Havannah Porto Rico Brazil Batavia Cheribon Sumatra , Ceylon Mocha 224 87 71 124 86 71 119 87 72 378 368 358 368 368 311 320 350 262 103 West-India common. Do. superior Grenada ordinary... Do. superior Do. fine red Do. superior Berbiee Do. superior Saint Lucia Do. superior Trinidad Do. superior Caracca Do. superior Brazil Do. superior Guayaquil Do. superior St. Domingo 200 140 186 140 101 80 186 133 186 109 186 109 197 166 583 500 560 500 SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 569 upon certain Goods imported from the East-Indies, together with Mauritius, 5th January 1829. 182G. 1827. 1828. Increase or Decrease per Cent. of the three last upon the three first years. Increase. Decrease. £. £. £. 20,266 27,298 26,368 9 per cent. — 29,400 32,907 36,.522 35 — — 415,395 401,970 .506,127 70 — — 3,738,057 3,705,859 3,448,814 — 7 per cent. Indies, 1824 — 1829. Ordered by the House of Commons to be printed, been greatly reduced within the period given in the Statement. 3 April 1830. John Crawfurd, Esq. Tobacco, with those on Tea calculated ad valorem from the Quotations of the of 18th March 1828. SUGAR. Duty per Cent. Foreign and Colonial SPIRITS. Duty per Cent. TOBACCO. Duty per Cent. Jamaica, fine Do. middling Do. ordin. brown... Demerara, fine Do. middling Do. brown 60 71 87 67 75 90 131 143 203 233 170 225 180 81 112 102 108 115 188 Brandy, cognac, 1st > brandy, 26-27 i Second ditto 658 794 750 900 843 268 248 226 217 212 192 408 364 242 Maryland, fine scrub Do. brown 758 1,028 343 Do. fine yellow Virginia, fine black . Do. stripped ordin. Kentucky, fine Do. ordinary St. Domingo Havannah Segars, common Superior ditto Bordeaux 800 1,309 900 Hollands Geneva ... 12 a 19 per cent. "J Rum, Jamaica ...J Do. 20 a 22 Do. 23 a 27 Do. 28 a 34 Do. superior Do. extra fine Do. Leeward Is- "i land, proofs ... / Do. over proofs ... Demerara, 23 a 35... Havannah, fine Do. middling Do. brown 1,600 533 370 Rio, brown 112 Do. white 64 Bahia, brown East-India Do. inferior Virginia midd. black Kentucky middling . 1,800 Do. white 2 057 Mauritius 960 Do. low brown Bengal fine white ... Do. midd. white ... Do. low white China and Siam ... 1,200 ¥ Brazil Ukraine FIFTH REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS ON THE AFFAIRS OF THE EAST-INDIA COMPANY 1830. LIST OF WITNESSES Jovis, 29° die Aprilis 1830. James Cosmo Melvill, Esq. p. 572 Lun^, 3° die Maij 1830. Thomas Gore Lloyd, Esq. 598 Jovis, 6° die Maij 1830. Captain John Mackie - - '--^ —'•• "V^" ,j^-.~--^ ^ ^ g^^ Captain JVilliam Maxfield - ■; *v V ,r . ,r, .v-.v* '' V ' /-f-*'^- "*- t)13 Liinffi, 10* die Maij 1830. Mr. WiUiam Walfbrd 630 Mr. WUIiam Ireland 637 William Astell, Esq. 642 James Cosmo Melvill, Esq Q^S Martis, IP die Maij 1830. Mr. John Kennedy and Mr. Hugh Hornby Birley ... - 657 James Cosmo Melvill, Esq. 664 Jovis, 13° die Maij 1830. Robert Rickards, Esq. *- - 682 FIFTH REPORT THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the present State of the Affairs of the East-India Company, and into the Trade between Great Britain, the East-hidies, and Chi7ia ; and to report their Observations thereupon to the House ; and who were empowered to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time, to the House : — HAlVE made a further Progress in the matters to them referred and examined several other Witnesses ; the Minutes of whose Evidence they have agreed to report to the House up to the 13th day of this instant May, inclusive. \SthMay 1S30. 4D MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Jovis, 29° die Aprilis 1830. William Ward, Esq. in the Chair. JAMES COSMO MELVILL, Esq. Auditor of the East-India Company's 2Q A "1 1830 Accounts, again called in, and examined. J C Melvill Esq. 4'i95. You are the Auditor of the East-India Company ? — I am. 4296. In your situation of Auditor, have you been led to consider the mode pursued by the Company in computing the upset price of their teas ? — The computation of the upset price of tea forms no part of the official duty of my department ; but it devolves upon me to prepare periodically financial views of the territorial branch of the Company's affairs ; and in the performance of that duty, I find it important and necessary, as far as prac- ticable, to make myself acquainted with all the Company's arrangements of a financial nature, commercial as well as political ; I will therefore endeavour to answer any questions which the Committee may be pleased to put respecting the upset price of tea. 4297. Will you explain the principle upon which the Company fix the upset price of their teas? — The Act of the 24 Geo. III. c. 38, usually calleil the Commutation Act, precludes the Company from putting up their tea for sale at any prices which shall, upon the whole of the teas so put up at any one sale, exceed the prime cost thereof, with the freight and charges of im- portation, together with lawful interest from the time of the arrival of such tea in Great Britain, and the common premium of insurance, as a compen- sation for the sea risk incurred thereon. The first point that the Company have to consider in carrying that law into eflTect is, how they are to compute the prime cost of their teas. All the Company's consignments and remit- tances to China are made entirely with a view to, and do in fact terminate in, supplying their treasury at (Jantoii with funds (or the provision of tea. The course of proceeding which the Company adopt each season is this : they first take a view of the state of the market, and the probable demand for tea, and according to that view frame their indent for a quantity of tea to be brought from China sufficient to keep up a year's consumption before- hand, as required by law, and estimate the probable cost of that tea in tales. The next step is to provide the means of ])aying for the tea. M'iili that view they buy cotton in India for consignment lo China, which is paid for in SELECT COMMITTEE or the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 573 in rupees received in reimbursements of sums disbursed in sterling, on ac- -!* April 1830. count of tliat portion of the territorial charges of India which is incurred in liTTn r England. They direct the supercargoes to receive dollars in China in ex- " ^''^ ' *^" change for bills upon India, which are paid in rupees, received in like man- ner. Tliey purchase British manufactures for consignment to China, which are of course paid for in sterling. A very small portion, about one-sixteenth of the whole, in 1828-9, was provided by bills drawn in China upon the Com- pany in London. The prime cost of the tea brought to England under these arrangements is the sum expended in sterling in providing the tales with which the tea was bought, including freight and charges upon the out- ward consignments, which are in fact remittances, and upon the homeward investment of tea. 4298. Does it also include the charge of interest? — Interest forms a necessary part of the cliarges. The Company, as merchants, are entitled to charge interest from the date of expending the money in making the re- mittances until the period when, if they were free from the restriction of the Commutation Act, they would be in the situation to sell the tea. That Act, however, restrains the Company from selling their tea immediately upon its arrival, by requiring that they should keep a considerable stock on hand ; and in order that they may suffer no loss on that account, it is provided that the Company shall add to the prime cost of the tea lawful interest from the time of its arrival in Great Britain. Combining, therefore, ordinary usage, as respects interest being included in the invoice charges, with the parlia- mentary enactment, the upset price of the tea should include interest from the time of the first expenditure to the time when the sale proceeds of the teas are realized. 4299. You state that interest is charged from the date when the money is expended in providing funds for the purchase of the tea ; is that the prin- ciple upon which you charge interest ? — That is the principle which regu- lates the Company's charge of interest. The amount of the charge is not minutely ascert;n'ned from year to year ; but I have taken out the particulars of the year 1828-9, which is that of which the Committee have had a state- ment of the items of the upset prices, and I have ascertained that the Com- pany's charge tor interest, although regulated upon the principle which I have explained, falls short of what it would be upon an actual computation. 4300. Will you explain upon what data you go? — The invoice charge of interest upon the outward consignments from England is six months, and I have ascertained that the proceeds of these consignments in the last year, 1828-9, were not realized for ten months upon an average. Again, the charge which the Company make of interest under the Commutation Act is for eighteen months, and 1 have ascertained that the average period that the tea is in warehouse here is twenty months. 4301. Can you state what proportion of the funds required for the purchase of tea in China is raised by bills in India, or by consignments of merchandize from India? — The whole portion remitted from India amounts to about two- 4 D 2 thirds ./. C. Melvill, Esq. 574. EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 29 April 1830. thirds of the whole, including consignments of merchandize from India to China, as well as bills drawn from China upon India. 4302. That proportion which has been raised by being remitted from India being raised in dollars in exchange for rupees, how is the sterling value of the rupees calculated ? — At the intrinsic par of the rupee, computing the value of fine silver at the old mint standard of 55. 2c?. an ounce. 4303. But there is at present no such standard in silver? — I am perfectly aware of that circumstance. Tiie standard in this country being gold, there is no such standard as 5s. 2d. ; nor can there, I apprehend, be any accurate standard for silver, but the market-price, in a country where the standard is gold. 4304. What is the market-price of silver at present r — 4s. lid. an ounce. 4305. The market value appears then to be 3d. per ounce less than the amount observed in the Company's calculations, has not there been an over- valuation in your computation of the tale to that extent? — If the Committee were to restrict their view to the two or three last years, undoubtedly there would appear to have been an over-valuation of the tale in that respect ; but in former years of the present charter the market price of silver considerably exceeded the old mint standard of 5s. 2d., and I have ascertained that upon an average of all the years since 1814-15, there is only a fractional difference between the value of the rupee at the market price and at the old standard. 4306. Then, from your statement, it would appear that upon an average of years there has not been any over-valuation of the tale by the system the Company have observed of bringing the rupees into dollars? — Tiiat is what I meant to say ; and I would beg leave to add, that the Board of Control, acting upon the authority given to them by Parliament, compel the Company to credit the Indian territory with the rupee at more than 12 per cent, above the oltl standiutl of 56". 2d., which valuation being one to which the Company as advised are bound by law to submit, they would have been perfectly justi- fied in applying to their transactions with China. 4307. That being the case, how do you account for their not having pro- portionately increased the upset price of tea? — The Company have never acfpiiesced in the rates of exchange prescribed by the Board, but have per- sevTred up to the present time in earnestly remonstrating against the obser- vance of those rales, and in entreating a revision of them. Tiie Cliina accounts are not legally witiiin the control of the Board ; and therefore, although the Company must submit to the loss by tliis exchange, yet they have been unwilling to give the least sanction to the rates by introducing them into the valuation of the tale in computing the cost of tea, the more esj)icially as if they h;id done so, it woidd have had the effect, whicii I trust I may be permitted to say the Company always deprecate, of raising the ii|)set price of tea. 4308. Do not the Company adopt a different mode of valuing the tale in their SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 575 their account of profit ami loss from that which you have explained with 5J9 April 1830. reference to the upset price of tea? — Yes. In their profit and loss accounts they adopt the fixed rate of (is. Sd. as the medium rate ; and the Committee J-C- Melvill, F.sg. will see that tlie Company are compelled to use a different rate in this account, as the effect of the Board's rates must be adjusted in the profit and loss. With respect to this old rate oi'Gs. Sd., 1 find that it was recognized in the year 1781, in a paper appended to the Ninth Report of a Select Com- mittee of the House of Commons on East-India .Affairs, being a Report from a Committee of East-India Proprietors, adopted by the General Court, which, with the permission of the Committee, as it explains the view which was then taken of what constituted prime cost, I will take the liberty of reading : '* With respect to merchandize sent out from England to India, and merchandize returned home from thence, the produce must vary according to the market abroad and at home, and according to the ideal value affixed to t'oreign currency, but can only affect the Company, or be decided, on the f)llowing position; for instance, suppose £100 laid out in broad-cloth in England sells in Bengal for 1,200 current rupees ; if on this occasion the exchange be reckoned at '■2s. per current rupee, the profit is 20 per cent. ; if 25. 3d., the profit is 'jS per cent. ; again, if the produce of the 1,200 current rupees belaid out in muslins, and these, when brought to England, sell for £150, the produce of the operation, reckoning at 2s. the current rupee, will be 1,500 current rupees, or an apparent profit of 25 per cent. ; at 2s. 3d. the current rupee will be l,333i, or an apparent profit of only 13| per cent. But the real profit to the Company in England, by comparison of first costs, will be 50 per cent., which is the only point that can be established, let the discussion be carried on ever so long, except that the higher the exchange in India the greater the apparent profit there, and the reverse in England ; so that, for the purpose of the present calculation, your Committee have adopted the Company's valuation ; viz. tale 6s. 8d." The Committee will oljserve, that this latter principle of comparing first costs is that which the Company now adopt. The paper which 1 have read was before Parliament a short time previously to the passing the Commutation Act ; the clause in which affecting the question of prime cost was proposed by the Company in the very terms in which it is enacted 4309. Can you slate to the Committee what has been the average cost of the tale to the Company since 1814, upon the principle which you have been explaining? — The average cost of the tale to the Company since 1814-15, upon the principle which I have explained, has been 65 7'502f/. 4310. What has been the average rate per tale since 1814 at which bills have been drawn upon the Company in England from Canton ? — The average rate per tale at which the Company ha-* e been diawn upon from Canton since 1S14-I5 is Gs.S-'TJd. The Committee will see that if that principle had been observed, the charge of interest in the computation would be for twelve months less than that included in the Company's calculation, because bills of exchange would comprise the interest for that period ; but on the other 576 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 29 April 1830. other hand, the Company's calculation includes charges that would be "~~ incurred if supplies were obtained by bills. Adjusting both sides of the J.C. c vill, ±jsq. calculation, I find that the rate at which the tale would have been computed in the upset price of tea, if the bill of exchange rate had been the principle of computation, would have been Qs. S'Q'iQc?. decimals. 4311. Do you not consider that it is the ordinary usage to value the coin of a foreign country expended in the purchase of consignments to England in sterling at the current rate of exchange ? — I am perfectly aware that such is the usual practice ; the principle, indeed, seems quite clear. In ordinary cases it very frequently happens that the cargo abroad is purchased with funds raised by bills of exchange, and the cost of those goods in sterling would, in such a case, be the sterling amount of the bills ; but the adoption of any such system by the Company in their present circumstances, even were it practicable, would defeat the financial provisions of the Legislature in respect of India. If the Company were to buy their teas by means of bills upon themselves, they would have to pay those bills out of the proceeds of the teas, and then there would not be funds for the territorial charges of India. 4312. Will you explain to the Committee what is the nature and the amount of those territorial charges ? — They comprise the reimbursement to the public of that portion of the expenditure of Great Britain which is incurred in respect of his Majesty's troops serving in India. They also embrace the furlough and retired allowances of officers in the Company's army, the cost of territorial stores sent to India, political freight and demur- rage, and also a portion of the interest of the Indian debt. The aggregate of those several charges may be stated to amount, upon the aveiage, to £3,000,000 per annuin, wiiich is remitted by the Company principally through their India and China trade ; and the Indian territory has the im- portant benefit of effecting this remittance at advantageous rates of exchange. 4313. In what mode does the territory obtain this advantage ? — The terri- tory obtains this advantage by remitting the three millions annually at the Board rates of exchange, 2s. 3-8 If/, per sicca rupee. 4314. Can you state to the Committee what proportion of the remittance is effected tlirough the China trade? — At present about one million sterling per annum. It has been, and it continues to be, tlie policy of the Company to increase the rcinittances through that mode. 4315. At wiiat rate do the Company credit the Indian territory with the sums so remitted ? — At 25. 3'84(/, the sicca rupee. 4310. Instead of Is. llrf., for the reasons you have stated ? — Is. 1 \d. is, I believe, the market rate now. 4317, Can you state to the Committee what is the present rate of ex- change in India for bills upon England ? — The last quotation I have seen is Is. Ik/, per sicca rupee. 4318. You SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 577 4S18. You have stated that this remittance is at '2s. 3d. instead of Is. lid. ^^ April 1830. Is that 2.9 3d. put upon the tea in computing the upset price ? — No ; the . r computation of that part of the remittance from India, which affects the ' ' '^^'' ''*' upset price of tea, is made, as I have aheady explained, at the old mint standard of 55. 'id., which values the rupee at about Q,s. Ohd. 4319. Still would it not appear, according to the computation of the rupee being valued at 2s. Ok/., whilst in Bengal the exchange is l5. lid., that it is tai -^*7- I think, upon the proceedings of the Court of Directors. 4342. Do you think the rate of exchange in China is or is not a criterion to be depended upon in computing the prime cost of the teas? — It seems to me, that to value the tale upon any such principle, would be to assume, first, that the Company might draw bills, which if they had drawn, would have defeated the operation of the law in respect of the charges of India ; and secondly, that if they had done so, they could have obtained £2,000,000 as cheaply as £200,000. 4343. A'^ou give that opinion as applied to the existing state of things ? — Yes. 4344. Do you conceive that the Legislature, in speaking of prime cost, could not have intended such a mode of computation ? — I have great reluc- tance in presuming to give an opinion upon that point. Independently of my statement, that the clause in the Commutation Act was prepared by the Court of Directors, who, a short time previously to preparing it, had them- selves expressed a view of what constituted prime cost, accordant with the principle now adopted, and which was before Parliament when the Act was passed, it strikes me that the Legislature, in speaking of prime cost, must have meant a computation founded upon fact, which the rate of exchange would not in this case show. Besides, if the Committee will be pleased to refer to the Acts of the 13 Geo. III. c. 64, 19 Geo. IIL c. 61, 20 Geo. IIL c. 56, 21 Geo. III. c. Q5, they will find that about the time when the Com- mutation Act was in progress, Parliament was in the habit of controlling and in some cases absolutely prohibiting the Company from accepting bills of exchange. I would also venture to suggest one other point deserving of some attention: if Parliament intended that the calculation of prime cost should invariably be governed by the rate of exchange, they would not have authorized interest from the time of the arrival of the tea in England ; because bills being drawn at six months' sight, there would have been in that case a double allowance of interest for the period the bill had to run after the arrival of the tea. 4345. You have stated your opinion that it would be impossible to draw two millions' worth of bills from Canton upon England for consecutive years ; does not the amount of bills, which it is possible to draw from one country to another, depend upon the extent of the commercial transactions between those countries ? — Undoubtedly. 4346. Then supposing there to be an extension of commerce between England and China, would it be impossible that a larger amount of bills could be drawn from Canton upon England than is now drawn i* — The opinion which I have expressed has reference to the present period and to present circumstances. I am not prepared to say that the trade could be 4 E 2 profitably 582 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 29 April 1830. profitably increased ; but of course if it could, the means of remittance would be increased. J. a Melvill, Esq. 4347. Then the difficulty of drawing an additional sum by bills from Canton upon England arises partly out of the present state of the law as affecting the commerce between the two countries? — From the present state of the law, rendering it obligatory upon the Company to apply the proceeds of their teas to the Indian charges. 4348. In answer to a former question, you stated, that in calculating the prime cost of the tea, you included freight, insurance, and interest on the outward investment ; do you also include any mercantile profit on that in- vestment ? — I thought I had explained to the Committee, that we took on the one side what we expended in sterling, and on the other side what that expenditure produced to us, and that gives the value of the tale. Of course, if there is a diflTerence forming profit or forming loss, it would come into the computation of the advantage or disadvantage of the several modes of remit- tance to China. 4349. In taking that expenditure you charge the amount of interest and the amount of freight; do you also credit that account with a certain rate of profit which you think you should make upon the sale? — No, we take the actual result of the transaction. 4350. So that in that case, supposing there is a loss, that loss is charged upon the price of the teas? — It affects the value of the tale. 4351. Are you aware that there is every year a very large export of silver, foreign and native, from China to India, and that this money may be had by the Company for bills on England or India to any extent? — I am aware that there is a considerable export of buHion to India; but I am not aware that money may be had for bills on England or India to any extent. 4352. You mean to say that you have no means of ascertaining whether money may be had by the Company for bills on India or England to any extent.^ — So far as my recollection serves me, I think tiiat when there has been a large amoimt of bullion sent from Canton to India, the supercargoes have occasionally felt great difficulty in negotiating bills upon the Court for a considerable sum. 4353. But not bills upon India ? — I am not aware that they have felt much difficulty in negotiating bills upon India. 4354. In what way has that difficulty arisen ; has it arisen in their not obtaining bills at the exchange they have opened the treasury at, or have they advertised for tenders of bills and not obtained them ? — Having opened the treasury at a fixed rate of exchange, they have, so far as I can remember, been compelled to raise the rate, and after all not succeeded in obtaining so much as they wished. 4355. Did not that arise from their raising the exchange after perhaps the bullion had been sent away? — It probably arose in a great measure from the depressed state of the money market in India, and of the opiuu) trade at SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 583 at Canton. There can be little doubt they might have increased the supply 29 April 1830. if they had offered extravagant rates. 4356. Can you state at what period that took place, and what was the ' ' ' * ' ' ' "^ rate of exchange originally offered, and the rate of exchange to which the Company's factory advanced their bid afterwards, and for what sum it was ? — I am not prepared at present with these particulars ; but I will obtain them for the information of the Committee. 4357. Are you aware that the Americans have ever met with any difficulty in using their credits on England ? — I never heard till lately that they had adopted that metliod. 4358. Since they have done so have you heard of any difficulty r — I have seen nothing upon that subject but what is recorded in the evidence given to this Committee. 4359. It has been stated in evidence to this Committee, that the public could be supplied with the same quantity of teas as are sold at the Company's sales for the sum of £1,500,000 less than the Company receive ; do you agree to that, or can you give any reasons for differing from that calculation? — I trust that in answerini- that question I may be allowed to premise, that as the calculations upon that subject which have been submitted to this Com- mittee have reference to a trade in tea altogether different from that which the law has prescribed for the conduct of the East-India Company, the result of those calculations must be totally fallacious when viewed as a test of the past management of a public trust ; and if the result of the calculations in question be intended as a hypothetical view of the future, it strikes me that it can be of little value, unless it be determined by Parliament that the system under which the Company now administer their combined trust may be dispensed with. Independent, however, of these considerations, it appears to me, upon an examination of the calculations, that one fallacy attends most of them. Mr. Bates,* Mr. Thornley,t and Mr. RickardsJ(,in his second statement), take the valuation of the tale according to the rate of exchange at the period of unusual depression ; making the tale, according to Mr. Bates (page 502, quest. S955a), 5s. 5'^d. ; according to Mr. Thorn- ley (page 404, quest. 3413a), 5s. 6f148, whereof one-third is ascribable to the difference in exchange, and most of the remainder to the items of freight and interest, the Company's charges of which are necessarily in excess of those which a private merchant would incur, owing to the laws which regulate their shipping, and make it obligatory upon them to have a large stock of tea on hand. Perhaps it is unnecessary for me to trouble the Committee with any similar details respecting the calculations upon this subject by Mr. Thornley and Mr. Kickards, many of the objections just stated being equally applicable to them. Mr. Thornley states the excess of charge to the public for tea to be £1,727,934. This is in 1828-9- Applying the same principles (o 1829-30, the excess in that year, according to Mr. Thornley's data, is £1,680,478 ; but Mr. Thornley assumes the average sale price realized by the Company upon all descriptions of tea at 2s. 8-06o'. per pound, whereas in 1829-30 it was only Qs. 2'55d. The difference between these two sums on 27,455,063 lbs., the quantity sold, is £630,322. So that Mr. Thornley's excess of charge is brought down one-third below his estimate. It will be further observed that Mr. Thornley has made no allowance whatever for interest on the capital employetl, or for wastage. Mr. Kickards computes tiie prime cost of the tea in the coin of China very far below what is taken either by Mr. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 585 Mr. Bates or Mr. Thornley, and so far below what is actually paid by the 29 April 1830. Company, that I cannot imagine that the Company could have obtained w~7~// £ y teas at the prices computed by Mr. Rickards (page 413, quest. 3'l5i'a) without ' "^ ^ "' ' *' a deterioration in quality. Mr. Rickards attempts to show the cost to the public under the present system to be much greater than that implied in the computations of either of the other gentlemen ; but this arises from Mr. Rickards having included what he conceives to be excess of tea duty paid to the State. 4360. In examining Mr. Rickards's statement, have you found that he has fallen into the same error as Mr. Thornley, and computed the reduction o£6d. in the pound in his estimate? — Mr. Rickards has taken the average for a number of years ; but he falls into the same error as Mr. Bates and Mr. Thornley, of taking the rate of exchange in one year, and the prices in another. 4361. Have you seen a price-current of Canton of June 1829, in which the exchange is stated at 3s. lid.? — I have seen only the price-current of April 1829, in which it is stated at from 45. to 4s. 2d. 4362. You have stated that an error runs through the calculation of those gentlemen, inasmuch as they have taken the lowest rate of exchange, apply- ing it to the price for the whole period. Are you not aware that Mr. Bates's calculation is only founded upon one year, during which he states that the average rate of exchange was that which he took ? — So far as respects the exchange, but not as respects the prices realized by the Com- pany for the tea. 4363. Are you aware that Mr. Bates states in his evidence, when he takes the last sale price at 25. Jd., " that is the price obtained at the last sale of the East-India Company ?" — Yes, but that is not the fact ; the average price was 25. 4(7. 312 decimals, instead of 25. Jd. as taken by Mr. Bates. 4364. Wni you be good enough to give in a statement of your calculation, by which you make the price of tea in 1829 come out to 14 i J. instead of 13id. ? — My calculation is simply this : a pecul of tea, 133^ lbs., losing two and a half per cent, by wastage, purchased for 29 tales, each tale being worth 55. 5-f firf., costs 14ir/. per lb. 4365. You have said that the average sale price received last year was 25. 4r/., and in correcting Mr. Thornley's computation you state it at 25. 2d ? — Mr. Bates's evidence applies to co7igo tea, Mr. Thornley's applies to all descriptions of tea ; that accounts for the difference between those two prices. 4366. From Mr. Bates's calculations you have deducted a sum of about £350,000, as excess obtained by the Company in the sale of tea in the price at which they put up their teas ; do not you consider that as a profit by the Company ?— Undoubtedly it is profit ; but my distinction is this, it is not what they demanded, it' is the result of a fair competition in a market abundantly supplied. 4367. Will 586 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDTA AFFAIRS: 29 April 1830. 4367- Will you explain what you mean by a fair competition ? — I mean tliat any one may go and bid for the teas. J C MeMll Esq. j j o ' ' ' ' 4868. That is according to the supply which the Company put into the market ? — I will explain how the Company manage their supply. Previously to making the tea declaration every quarter, they look at the amount of the deliveries during the previous quarter ; they look also at the quantities sold in the previous sales, and they always put up at the sale a larger quantity than the average amount of the deliveries at the previous sales of the year, in- creasing the quantities of those sorts of tea from which there appears to have been the greatest demand ; that is also the principle which governs the Com- pany's orders to China for tea. The Committee are also perhaps aware that as a proof of the market being abundantly supplied, very large quantities have been rejected. 4369. That is to say, left unsold at the upset price ? — Exactly. 4370. Are the dollars that arrive here from China so inferior in quality that they are necessarily melted, and sold as silver, being unfit for use as dollars ? — I have heard that that is the case, but I have not had an opportunity of ascertaining it officially. I am not aware, within my experience, of the Com- pany's having brought dollars from China to England. 4371. If that is the case, does not it follow that any person computing the dollar at Canton at Ss. \\.cl. should take into his consideration the inferiority of the quality? — Undoubtedly, the value of the dollar in exchange must be affected by the quantity of silver contained in it. 4372. Do you think that the Company might conduct the trade at a lower rate of freight than what appears to be the freight paid for the East- India Company's ships ? — The Company take up their ships under the provisions of an Act of the Legislature. I allude to the 39lh Geo. III. c. 89, the pro- visions of which were re-enacted in 1818, in an Act carried through by the late Mr. Canning, when President of the India Board. The Act provides, that the Company in contracting for ships shall make it a condition of the contract that those ships shall be applicable to trade and to warfare. The Act also requires that the Company shall take up the ships for a certain number of voyages, and although that may be an arrangement which, gene- rally speaking, is at least as beneficial to the contractor as to the Company, yet when it happens, as it has done to the Company, that contracts have been entered into in periods of high prices, followed by periods of unusually low prices, it is quite clear that the Company's shipping system must suflTer in comparison with that of the private merchant ; that is the case at present. The existing contracts for the ships now in the service were most of them entered into six and seven years ago. That the Company can engage ships, if they act solely as merchants, as cheaply as individuals, is evinced in the fact that, when under the authority which that Act gives them, they have taken up ships for only one voyage, they have got them quite as cheap as a merchant could. The difference in the rate of freight between the average period SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 58? period, when the Company made the contracts for large ships now in the 29 April, 1830. service and the present time, cannot be less tiian 18 or 20 per cent. ^ m~„ r ^ . ,. , J.C.MelviUyEsq. 4373. Do you mean to state that if it were not for the contract the East- India Company woidd freight to India as cheap as a private trader? — If the Company were unfettered by law, and were not compelled to make their ships applicable to political services, I have no doubt tluit they would engage them upon as good terms as individuals. 4374. When it has happened that there has been a great rise in \^\\ce instead of a depression, did they make an allowance to the contractors ? — That was done by a special Act of Parliament ; and I believe the late Mr. Canning, who carried that bill through, took occasion distinctly to guard against its being construed into any thing like a precedent. 4375. In the early part of your evidence you alluded to the assistance rendered to the Indian territory by the China trade, are you aware that it has been given in evidence before this Committee, that after paying the in- terest on the bond-debt, and paying the dividend to the proprietor, that trade has been a loss to the Company instead of a profit ? — I have had an oppor- tunity of examining the statements delivered in to this Committee by Mr. Rickards, with a view of showing that the profits of the tea trade have not been sufficient to meet the charge of the interest upon the Company's bond- debt, and the dividends to the proprietors ; and I am prepared now to prove to the Committee that Mr. Rickards's statements involve errors and omissions, which, when corrected, leave a credit to the amount of £956,361 ibr the first of his statements, being that for 1820-21 ; of £1,127,696 for the second of his statements, being tiiat for 1814-15 ; of £659,167 for the third of liis statements, being that for 1827-28 and of £873,174 for the fourth of his statements, being that of an average of years since 1814-15. These errors are caused by an excessive charge for wastage, by including the India as well as the China freight, by including as charges several items already included in the invoice amount, by considering the interest on the Company's own capital as an actual outgoing, and by considering all the sea insurance as an outgoing ; whei'eas the Company being their own insurers, have them- selves, after ciiaiging insurance, the profit of that account. If the Com- mittee wish it, I am prepared with those four statements of Mr. Rickards, together witii those statements as I have ventured to correct them, and will, if desirtd, deliver these statements in, one opposed to the other, as a part of my evidence. [ The Witness delivered in the same, zchich are as Jbllows : ] 4 F MR. 588 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS 29 April 1830. J. C. Melvill, Esq. MR. RICKARDS'S FIRST STATEMENT. Profit and Loss, China Trade. Page 409 - 3435a. Cost of teas, as per No. 32 of Papers relative to the India and China Trade, 4lh June 1829; 28,545,9601bs. (year 1820-21) Freight and demurrage for the year 1820-21, as per No. 31 Charges in China and Eng- land, as per No. 6 of Ac- counts relating to Tea Trade, &e. of the East-India Com- pany, 14th May 1824 : Salaries, emoluments, £. &c. 1820-21 95,053 Expenses in China ... 54,735 Do. in England 173,520 Interest 236,287 Insurance 58,654 Interest on bonds, 1820-21 ... Dividends on stock.... £ 1,874.840 796,540 618,849 162,938 632,251 4,085,418 Sale amount of tea sold in 1821-2, as per No. 33 of Papers of 4th June 1829 ; 2.5,492,001 lbs Deficiency after paying inte- rest on bond-debts and divi- dends, both which are, by the Act 53 Geo. III., s. 27, chargeable on commercial profits £. 3,566,642 518,776 4,085,418 SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 589 MR. RICKARDS'S FIRST STATEMENT, As Corrected by Mr. Melvill. 29 April 1830. J. G. Melvill, Esq. Cost of teas as per No. 32, viz. 28,545,960 lbs Freight and demurrage Charges : Canton Sa- laries £82,114 Do, England ... 173,520 Interest 236,287 Insurance.. 58,654 Interest on the bond debt. Dividends on stock Surplus £. 1,874,840 536,740 550,575 162,938 632.251 3,757,344 437,585 4,194,929 Sale of the quantity, per con- tra, viz. 27,975,041 lbs. (sale weight) To be re-credited as above explained : Amount of interest earned on the Company's own capi- tal £236,287 Amount saved by them in the mode of effecting their insurance 44,593 £. 3,914,049 280,880 4,194,929 Surplus 437,585 Instead of a deficiency of 518,776 Difference 956,361 4. F 2 590 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS 29 April 1830. J.C.MilviU,Esq. MR. RICKARDS'S SECOND STATEMENT (No. 1.— 29th March 1830.) Profit and Loss on the China Trade. Page 474 - 3764a. Imports 1814-15. Sales 1815-16. Cost of 26,195,144 lbs. of tea exported by the East- India Company IVom Canton to England in 1814-15, as per No. 32 of Papers relating to the Trade with India and China, 4th June 1829, 26,195,1441bs Freight and demurrage, as per No. 31 Charges in China and England, as before £ Profit £ Interest on home botid-debt ... Dividends on stock £ £. 1,743,081 1,680,682 618,849 4,042,612 60,056 4,102,668 235,967 629,902 865,869 Sale amount of 26,234,244Ibs. of tea in 1815-16, as per No, 33 of Papers relating to the Trade with India and China, 4th June 1829 Profit brought down. Deficiency, SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COiVIMONS. MR. RICKARDS'S SECOND STATEMENT (No. 1.) As corrected by Mr. Melvill. Cost, as per No. 32, viz. '20,195,144 lbs Freight and demurrage, as per corrected statement upon that quantity Charges : Canton Salaries... £ 8-2,114 Do. England 173,520 Interest 236,287 Insurance 58,6.54 Profit £ Interest on home bond-debt, as per No. 21 of Papers, Fe- bruary 1830, year 1815-16. Dividends ... ditto Surplus. £. 1,743,081 814,094 550,575 3,107,750 1,187,752 4,295,502 235,967 629,902 865,869 321,883 Sale of the quantity, per con- tra, viz. 25,071,241 lbs.(sale weight) To be re-credited, as be- fore explained : Amount of interest earned on the Company's own ca- pital £236,287 Amount saved by them in the mode of effecting their insurance 44,593 1,187,752 Profit brought down ... £ £. 4,014,622 280,880 4,295,502 1,187,752 Surplus £ 321,883 Instead of a deficiency of 805,813 29 April 1830. J.CMeliiU.Esq. Difference £1,127,696 592 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 29 April 1830. J.C.MelvM,Esq. MR. RICKARDS'S THIRD STATEMENT (No. 2.) Profit and Loss, China Trade. Page 475 - 37G4a. Imports 1S27-28. Sales 1828-29. Cost ill 1827-8 of 31,593,176 lbs. exported from Canton as per No. 32 of Papers re- lating- to the Trade with India and China, 4th June 1829 ... Freight and demurrage, as per No. 31 of ditto Charges in China and England, as before , Profit £ Interest on home bond-debt for 1828-9, as per No. 21 of Papers, February 1830 ... Dividends on stock, per ditto . . £ 1,981,419 783,759 618,849 3,384,027 143,030 3,527,057 158,124 629,071 787,195 Sale amount of 30,269,508 lbs. of tea in 1828-9, as per No. 41 of Papers relating to the Trade of India and China, February 1830, being a quantity (with the allow- ance of 5 per cent, for wast- age) equal to that purchased in 1827-8 Profit brought down , Deficiency , 3,527,057 143,030 644,165 787,195 SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 593 •29 Ai)ril 1830. J.C.MplvM,Esq. MR. RICKARDS'S THIRD STATEMENT (No. 2.) As corrected by Mr. Melvill. Cost in 1827-8 of 31,593,176 lbs. of tea, exported from Canton, as per No. 32 of Papers relating to the Trade with India and China, 4th June 1829 Freight and demurrage, as per corrected statement upon that quantity Charges in China and England, as corrected, viz. Canton salaries £ 82,114 England ditto 173,520 Interest 236,287 Insurance 58,654 Profit , £. 1,981,419 550,866 550,575 3,082,860 802,197 3,885,057 Sale of the quantity, per con- tra VIZ. Sale weight, 30,961,313 lbs. To be credited, as before ex- plained : Amount of interest earned on the Company's own capi- tal £236,287 Amount saved by them in the mode of effecting their insurance 44,593 £. Profit brought down 802,197 Interest on home bond debt £ 158,124 Dividends on stock 629,071 787,195 Surplus 15,002 Instead of a deficiency of ... 644,165 £. 3,604,177 280,880 3,885,057 Difference £ 659,107 594- EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 29 April 1830. J.C.MelvM.Esq. MR. RICKARDS'S FOURTH STATEMENT, (No. 3. in the Evidence of 29th March 1830,) To show the apparent result of the Company's Tea Trade, calculated on an average of the fourteen years contained in the Tables No. 31, 32, and 33, of " Papers relat- ing to the Trade with India and China," 4lh June 1829, or from 1814-15 to 1827-8 inclusive ; and taking the charges in China and England at the same amount as in 1820-21. Page 476, No. 3. Cost of 28,129,230 lbs. of tea, being the averag-e of the quantities exported from Canton to England for four- teen years, as per No. 32 of the Papers referred to Average of the commercial freight and demurrage for the same period, as per No. 31 of the same Papers Charges in China and in Eng- land, as before Profit £ Interest on the home bond- debt, average of fifteen years as per No. 21 of " Papers relating to the Finances of India," February 1830 Dividends on stock, average of ditto, as per ditto £ £. 1,819,788 867,654 618,849 3,306,291 277,193 3,583,484 177,352 630,572 807,924 Sale amount of 25,870,764 lbs. of tea, being the average of fourteen years' sales, as per Table No. 33 of the Papers, &c. above referred to Profit brought down Deficiency SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 595 29 April 1830. J.C.MelvUl,Esq MR. RICKARDS'S FOURTH STATEMENT, As corrected by Mr. Melvill. Cost of 28,129,230 lbs. of tea, exported from Canton to England per annum, upon an average of fourteen years, 1814-15 to 1827-8, as per PaoersNo 32 £. 1,819,788 578,539 550,575 Sale of the quantity per con- tra, viz. 27,566,646 lbs. sale weight ... To be re-credited, as before explained : Amount of interest earned on the Company's own capi- tal £.236,287 Amount saved by them in the mode of eftecting their insurance .....44,593 £. 3,818,389 Freight and demurrage, as per corrected statement, upon that ouantitv Charges : Salaries, Canton... £. 82,114 Ditto, England 173,.520 Interest 236,287 Insurance 58,654 280,880 £ Profit 2,948,902 1,150,367 £ 4,099,269 4,099,269 Profit brought down £1,150,367 Interest on the home bond debt £ 177,352 Dividends on stock 630,572 807,924 Surplus 342,443 Instead of a deficiency of 530,731 DiflFerence of ^873,174 4G 4376. In 596 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 29 April 1830. 4376. In those computations have you included interest on the bond debt? — Yes; but I would avail myself of this opportunity to state, that it J.C.Melvtll,Esq. seems to be quite a mistake on the part of Mr. Rickards, to suppose that the interest upon the bonds is by law chargeable upon the Company's com- mercial profits. It is by law, together with their ordinary outgoings, chargeable upon the Company's home funds ; but the question of whether it is chargeable upon the commerce or upon the territory of the Company has never yet been definitively settled. So far back as the year 1783, the Company, in a petition to the House of Commons, stated as follows: — " The bond debt which your petitioners now owe, in a great measure arose from their military expenses in India, or has been necessarily continued on that account; independently of these expenses, your petitioner's ordinary mer- cantile profits would have enabled them to have extinguished the whole of their bond debt long before their territories were acquired." I believe the Company consider that this reasoning has gained force from subsequent events; and if the Committee will refer to the 51 Geo. III. c. 64, they will see that Parliament has given some recognition of a political character to this debt. 4377- You have stated in your evidence, that in the official documents as to the quantities of teas sold in the year 1828-9 there is a ereat discre- pancy ; can you explain those variations that appear to exist? — Those dis- crepancies entirely arise from the accounts which were called for differing in their titles and in the periods to which they refer. The first of the accounts, No. S3, to which Mr. Rickards refers (page 473) relates to the Company's tea only, and the period in that account is from March to March, which was the official year before 1814-15. The second account, No. 38, includes, as its title imports, the teas of the commanders and officers of the Company's ships. The third account. No. 41, embraces the period from May to May, which is the present official year. 4378. You have stated that these accounts were called for ; by whom were they called for? — By the Board of Commissioners for the Affairs of India, and subsequently laid before Parliament by the King's command. 4379. Then you mean to state, that if the words of the order had been given the same for each of the accounts called for, those variations would not have happened ? — There could have been no discrepancy. 4380. What are the titles of the Acts which you consider oblige the Com- pany to prepare the ships for trade and war? — The S9th Geo. JIJ. c. 89, and the 58th of Geo. III. c. 83. 4381. By what authority are the ships going to North America exempted from that ? — There is a special clause which authorizes ships to be taken up either for an unforeseen exigency, or for one voyage only, by private con- tract. 4382. Then it is under that provision that the tea trade to North America is carried on ? — I apprehend it is. 4383. In SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 597 4383. In speaking of the facility wliicli llic Company have of freinhting 529 April J HSO. ships as low as private individuals, does not the amount of freight wiiicii the , ,, ^77~j, ,, Company pay depend upon the equipments, the amount of stores, and number ' ' ^'' ' ^*^ of men which tiiey in their tenders require the owners to produce? — No doubt it does; but the equipment must necessarily be governed by that con- dition in the law which requires that when ships are built for the service they shall be applicable to warfare. 4384. Is there any thing in the Act which requires the Company to con- tinue a war equipment during peace the same as during war ? — The Company do not retain a war equipment in peace. I apprehend that the condition of taking up the ships for war renders the price higher at the period when they are engaged ; that a ship applicable to war would be tendered at a higher price than a ship that is not so applicable. 4385. When ships are taken up for one voyage, is not it left at the discre- tion of the Court of Directors ? — Undoubtedly. 4386. Is there any reason why ships taken up for one voyage by the Company should not be as cheap as those that private individuals can take up? — I apprehend not, unless it should happen, as it frequently does, that a ship for one voyage is taken up for the purpose of conveying troops as well as of bringing home goods from India, and that double service renders necessary those conditions which involve a higher rate of freight. 4387. For a direct voyage to China, you are not aware of any conditions that require it ? — No. 4388. Are you not aware that ships in time of peace are not equipped as they were in time of war? — Certainly not; but the ships have constantly in peace a political service to perform, in the conveyance of troops and stores. 4389. Do the Company ever send out troops in ships hired for one voyage, and not in the regular service ? — Yes, they do occasionally. 4390. Are you able to state what is the additional freight paid by the Company, for such ships that carry troops? — I am not able to state what it is. 4391. Are you aware whether the troops are carried with equal conve- nience and safety in the ships hired for one voyage as in the larger ships ? — I should say not ; and the reason why I say so is, that when the Company in some former periods have made use of a small ship instead of a large one for the conveyance of troops, complaints upon that ground have been made to the Court from the Horse Guards. The general impression upon my mind is, that the accommodation of the Company's largerships has been preferred and desired. 4392. You are aware that there is in the Company's warehouses and in transit always two years' consumption of tea ; do you conceive that to be required by the Act of Parliament in which this clause is to be found : " That the said United Company shall from time to time send orders for the purchase 4 G 2 of 598 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 29 April 1830. of such quanties of tea, and provide sufficient ships to import the same, as being added to the stock in their warehouses, and to the quantities ordered J.C.Melvill, Esq. ^^^ ^^^ arrived, shall amount to a sufficient supply for the keeping a stock at least equal to one year's consumption, according to the sales of the last preceding year, always beforehand :" in your opinion, does the construction of that Act of Parliament require two years' stock of tea to be kept always on hand r — The Company have construed that law to mean that it requires that they should have always one year's consumption in stock in London. They must, of course, have more than that in a part of the year, because the ships arrive at a particular period ; so that when the ships iiave discharged, the stock must amount to more than one year's consumption, or it would be materially less at the end of the year. LuncB, 3° die Mai/ 1830. THOMAS GORE LLOYD, Esq. again called in, and examined. 3 May 1830. 4393. Your signature appears to a paper given in to the Committee, being an account of profit and loss upon the trade of the East-India Company T.G. Lloyd,Esq. ijgt^gen Europe and China for the last ten years ; what is included in what you term the prime cost, calculated at (is. 8d. the tale ? — That prime cost is the invoice amount of those teas. 4394. What is included in the invoice amount of those teas in the charges of China? — There are what they call the proportional charges; they amount to about three per cent. 4395. Is the prime cost stated in that account the same as the cost in China, as stated in the amended estimate (No. 2.) ? — It is not. 4396. What is the difference? — The difference is, that the prime cost in the amended statement of the computation ofthe upset price of tea contains a calculation for the rupees ofthe supplies furnished to China from India at 5s. 'Hd. per ounce according to the mint price of silver ; making tlie rupee about 2s. Olrf. 4397. Does that make the prime cost, as stated in your paper, more or less? — The prime cost is less in the computation of tiie upset price of tea, because the prime cost in the account of profit and loss calculates the rupee at what are termed the Board's rates, that is, at 25. 3-Sid. 4398. Is there any other difference in the calculation ? — There is another difference, not in the prime cost but in the charges ; the prime cost in the amended paper includes interest and insurance upon the outward consign- ments. In the paper of profit and loss, that interest and insurance is not included, inasmuch as I holil interest of money to be a profit, and we charge the actual loss to the Company in the profit and loss account, and not a rate of insurance. 4399. In SELECT COMMITTEE oi t]ie HOUSE OF COMMONS. 599 4399. In this paper which is given in of profit and loss, no charge such as 3 May 1830 is made in your statement for tlie interest from tlie arrival of tlie teas in England to the estimated realization of the same amount, eighteen months, ^ • ^^- /-%''A-fc'«7- and no insurance at three per cent, upon the teas home-c!>arged in jour statement, are included ; do you not consider that that shouhl go into the account in order to exhibit the amount of profit and loss? — I do not; upon this principle, the interest itself is held to be a profit, and the actual losses are included in that account, instead of a rate of insurance. 4400. How is it possible that this can give a correct estimate of the net profit, when a sum so large as from £250,000 to £260,000, which is the rate of interest charged in other accounts upon the investment in teas, and a sum as large as £50,000 to £60,000, charged for insurance, are entirely omitted ? — Because the Company trade upon their own capital, and whatever interest they make upon that capital is a profit ; if they were to charge it in the first instance, they would have to recredit it. 4401. Then you consider that interest is not a proper charge at all to go into the cost of the tea ? — It clearly forms an item in the cost of the tea when put up under the Commutation Act, but not in the profit and loss accounts, for the reasons I have given. 4402. Are you acquainted with a document which was given in to the House of Commons in 1824, in which the charges upon the tea were stated under different heads, say the heads of salaries, emoluments, and expenses, in any of the expenses in England, and the interest and the insurance ? — I am. 4403. If those were not charges proper to be taken into the calculation, why were they put in at that time? — Because the charges included in that paper were those which it was presumed the Company had a right to charge under the Commutation Act. 4404. Is it to be understood that those charges, made agreeablyto what the Commutation Act sanctioned, were not actually expenses incurred ? — The interest being that upon the Company's own capital, was not an actual outgoing, and the Company being their own insurers, had the profit as under- writers. '4405. Do you not consider that the Company is exposed to those charges as any other commercial dealer would be ? — I conceive that the Company traded upon their own capital, and that whatever interest they made upon that capital they had a right to put among their profits. 440G. Do you knov; that it is the custom of merchants, in casting up their profit and loss at the end of the year, to charge it with interest? — Yes, but the interest of that capital would go to pay their own dividends. 4407. The question is not on the dividends, but on the profits, and the account moved for was one of net profit ; how can it be an account of net profit when interest is not deducteii ? — I conceive, notwithstanding, that the interest on capital is part of their profit, as they charge themselves with interest T. G. Lloyd, Esq 600 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 3 Ma)' 1830. interest of all money; all interest of money on their own capital I consider as a profit. 44'08. Supposing tlie Company were to withdraw their capital from the trade in which they were engaged, and to employ it in some other way, they would be receiving the fair rate of interest on that capital so employed? — I apprehend they would. 4409. If then tlie amount of interest which the Company do not charge, but which they would make by the employment of their capital in any other way, and tlie amount of insurance, which is a risk incurred by them wliich they might also make by underwriting otiier risks, were deducted from the sum of the net profit to the Company, would it not reduce that profit most materially, to the sum of about £300,000 or £250,000, instead of £763,000 ?— I appre- hend there is a difference between profit as interest for the use of money and mercantile profit after charging the account with interest, and the Company are their own underwriters, and they have a profit of insurance. 4410. Supposing the Company were to render an account of profits, as any other merchant would do, cliarging the accounts with interest for the capital employed, and charging the account with premium of insurance which would be paid if they were not their own underwriters, would you not reduce that by so much as those two sums would amount to, which on these accounts is about £350,000 ; would not that reduce the account of net profit they have given in here so much ? — If they were to charge their capital with interest, and if they were to charge insurance, certainly it would reduce it; but, on the other hand, they would receive interest for the use of their own capital, and their profit as underwriters. 441 1. So that the net profit as given in in this account is not the net profit ; it is the profit they make of interest upon the capital employed, and the pre- mium of insurance which they make, being their own underwriters? — The net profit includes those items. 4412. So that, in fact, to any mercantile house, this account of net profit given in by the Company is a fallacious one ? — I am not prepared to say that ; the most cursory examination of the account will show the column containing actual losses, instead of a rate for insurance. 4413. You state that this account is not charged with insurance, because in making it up it is only debited for the loss that may liave accruetl to stand against the premium with which the Company, in another account, debit themselves ; there appears no column here for any loss, there has been no loss probably ? — Tliere is a column, 1 believe, for losses ; " losses at sea on consignments between Europe and China." 4414. Where is the balance of that sum then carried ? — The Company debit themselves only with their actual losses. 4415. In this same account there appears a column of ciiarges on mer- chandize calculated at five per cent, on the sale amount of the goods; on what data do you take that five per cent. ? — That five per cent, has been a rate T. G. Lloyd, Esij. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. GOl rate that we have used for years, ever since T can remember ; and by calcii- '^ May 1830. lations at various times it was found to be as nearly accurate as may be. 4'1<16. You have made out a statement in your own corrected examination upon the same data, in which you charge the expences, landing, housing, warehouse-room, carting, preparing for sale, and all charges of merchandize, on the same data ? — They are made out on a more accurate one. 4417. Are you not aware, that instead of giving five per cent, upon the cost of the tea, the return makes it nine and a half and ten per cent. ? — I have never made a calculation. 4418 If it does, it must be clear that the calculation of five per cent., as given in in the first account, is perfectly incorrect?- — I believe not, inasmuch as that charge of merchandize is not upon the sale price ; the charge of five per cent, is upon the sale price, the other is upon the cost price. 4419. The charge upon the sale price is five per cent, without the duty? — It is. 4420. Tliat is not on the upset price ? — No. 4421. Do you not keep a separate account of your insurance, deducting the risk from the premium you set aside .^ — We do keep an account of that fact in our ledger, for the purpose of ascertaining the balance of that insurance account, but have never carried it forward as a separate article of profit and loss. 4422. Are you able to ascertain by that the per-centage at which the risk was taken ? — By that account we should show how much we have gained by underwriting. 4423. Have you on the same principle the same account of charges, so as to show what is the profit you gain by setting aside five per cent, in the manner you have done ? — I do not apprehend we gain anything by that ; we can make up such an account. 4424. You were understood to say you had a more accurate mode ? — Yes, as it respects the upset prices. 4425. Can you furnish the Committee with what it was the object of the person who moved for it to get, a mercantile account, in the way in which merchants consider such an account, of the profit and loss of the East-India Company's tea trade v/ith China for one year, taking into account interest upon the capital employed as calculated in forming your upset price, taking insurance as calculated in forming your upset price, and placing the positive charges paid for warehousing, housing, carting, and other expenses ? — If the Committee will be pleased to direct such an account, I have no doubt we shall be able to furnish it. 4426. In the annual commercial account there is an item stating the charges general ; can you furnish the Committee with the particular items which compose that sum, which amounts to £450,000 ? — Yes, we can for any year. Jovis, 602 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: Jovis, 6° die Maij 1830. Captain JOHN MACKIE called in, and examined. 6 May 1830. 4427- You have resided in India several years? — I have, for ten years. 4428. From what period ? — From 1820 till the latter end of 1829. Cant. J. Mackie. ^„ t-^. , i i • • i /-n ■ i ^ r ^ ■> 4429. Did you command a ship in the Chma trade ? — 1 commanded a Spanish vessel on the coast of China. 4430. What was this vessel engaged in? — In the opium trade. 4431. She was sailing under Spanish colours? — She was. 4432. What ports of China have you visited ? — I visited the port of Amoy, and all the ports between that and Canton. 4433. Were you entirely engaged in the opium trade ? — Entirely j I carried also a little saltpetre. 4434. What was the name of the ship ? — The St. Sebastian. 4435. Whom was she owned by? — Spaniards. 4436. Did any part of the cargo belong to British merchants ? — Entirely British. 4437. Can you state any other ports in China that you touched at besides Amoy ? — Not any other principal ports ; I touched at all the ports between Amoy and Canton. 4438. You lie off some ports, do not you ? — I lay off the port called the Caf)e of Good Hope, and the island of Namo. 4439. At what distance is the Cape of Good Hope from Canton ? — About three hundred miles to the north-east. 4440. Did you find good shelter for your ship ? — Excellent; all those harbours are as safe as the port of Canton itself. 4441. Was the trade you carried on authorized by the laws of China? — 1 understood it was not authorized, but it was done quite openly. 4442. In the same way that the opium trade is carried on at Canton ? — The very same. 4443. Have you ever experienced any difficulty in carrying on the trade, although not formally sanctioned by the Chinese laws ? — Never the least. 4444. Who were the parties with whom your trade was carried on ? — The Chinese merchants. 4445. Resident at any particular points ? — Some of them from the city of Amoy, some from Ta-ho and Namo, and some from inland towns. 4446. Are any of those places in the province of Fokien ?— Amoy is in the province SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. G03 province of Fokien ? — I am not aware whether the island of Namo is in tlie 6 May 1830. province of Fokien or not. 4447. Have you got better prices for tliose articles than could be got at ^"•^'^' ^' ^"^^'^^ Canton ? — Yes. 4448. What was tlie difference of the price? — About 100 dollars upon a chest of opium, or 125, and sometimes 150, and sometimes higher. 4440. What advance was there upon the price of saltpetre? — About three dollars a pecul. 4450. What might be the total value of saltpetre and opium that you dis- posed of upon any one voyage ? — In my second voyage I brought back trea- sure to Lintin to the amount of 132,000 Spanish dollars, partly in dollars and partly in Sycee silver. 4451. What did you bring back the first voyage ? — About 80,000 dollars; in dollars and Sycee silver. 4452. How long did this second voyage last from your leaving to your returning to Lintin ? — Eight weeks. 4453. Where did you dispose of this cargo? — At the Cape of Good Hope. 4454. Was there safe anchorage there ? — Quite safe. 4455. Is that near any town ? — Yes, it is within fifteen miles of a very large city, the city of Tyho. 445G. From the time of your arrival how long were you detained before you disposed of the whole of your cargo ? — From fifteen to twenty days. 4457. What did you receive for your cargo ? — Sycee silver and dollars entirely. 4458. Why did you make your returns in bullion only ? — I was particularly desired by the agents of the brig to take nothing else. 4459. Could you have had returns in the produce of the country ? — I could have had returns in any produce of the provinces, such as sugar, tea, cassia, tortoiseshell, nankeens, or any thing that could be had. 4460. You would have had no difficulty in completing your cargo of those articles ? — Not the least. 4461. In what manner is the produce of the north-eastern provinces sent to Canton ? — I presume it is principally sent by sea, from the number of large junks always upon the coast. 4469. Have you seen teas sent by sea ? — Yes ; I have been on board of two junks entirely loaded with tea. 4463. What was the size of them ? — They could not have been less than 200 tons. 4464. From whence did they come ? — They came from Amoy, and they were bound to Canton. 4 H 4465. Did L'apt. J. Mackie. 604 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 6 May 1830. 4465. Did you board those junks ? — I boarded both of them, and sent letters by them to Canton. 4466. Were those letters regularly received ? — They were received in due course. 4467. Do you tliink you could have loaded your vessel with teas of good quality ? — I have no doubt I could, of the very best quality. I have no doubt I could have had any sort of Chinese produce that I wished. 446s. Had you any conversation with the captains or the supercargoes of the junks ? — Yes ; one of the merchants gave me an invitation to wait upon him at his house at Canton, 4469. Do you think you could have disposed of any other article besides those you sold at the places you visited ? — Yes ; I think that woollens might have been disposed ofj and perhaps a small quantity of iron, a few watches, and different kinds of things. 4470. What species of woollens do you think you could have disposed of? — Principally long ells and fine broad-cloth ; blankets and camlets also would have sold very well ; they are in ready demand all along the coast of China. 4471. Were there any duties paid to the government upon those cargoes ? — -I never paid any duties ; but I understood that upon all opium that is taken away from the ships the inferior officers of government get about twenty dollars for every chest. The Chinese pay that themselves ; the ships pay nothing. 4472. Did you ever pay any port-charges of any kind ? — Never. 4473. Were you ever annoyed by the Chinese authorities ? — No. I have been requested, as a favour, to shift my situation, as the principal officer was coming ; and I have gone away, and come back again in one or two days, 4474. Have you ever landed when you were engaged in this trade ? — Frequently ; almost every day. 4475. Whenever you liked ? — To any place I liked. 4476. Were you on such occasions ever annoyed, or ill treated by the authorities, or by the people? — Never; quite the contrary; I was always received in a civil way. 1 had invitations into their houses, and was treated with tea and sweetmeats. 4477. How far have you penetrated into the interior of the country ? — Six or seven miles. 4478. Could you have gone further if you had pleased ? — Any distance I pleased. 4479. What cities or towns have you visited on such occasions ? — I visited the city of Kesiak, the city of Amoy. The city of Tyho was too far distant from the ship, and I did not visit it. 4480. Is SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 605 44S0. Is Kesiak a large town ? — It is. 6 May 1830. 4481. What is tlie population of it? — It is impossible to tell the popula- c'«»< J Mackie tion ; 1 think it is nearly as populous as Canton. 4482. Is there a liarbour at Kesiak ? — A fine harbour. 4483. Was that a commercial town ? — It is a commercial town for junks only. 4484. Do you know what province it is in ? — The province of Canton. 4485. What distance from Canton is it? — About 150 miles. 4486. Is there much foreign trade carried on in Kesiak ? — I am not aware that there is any. There is a very large coasting trade. 4487- Are you of opinion that the Chinese in the places you visited are anxious for the extension of commerce ? — I should conceive that they were, because I have always found the Chinese inclined to buy any thing that was at all useful, of any description. 4488. You conceive them to be any thing but an anti-commercial people ? — I should consider them to be quite otherwise. 4489. Do you conceive that they have any antipathy to strangers? — I should conceive quite otherwise. In the northern provinces especially I was most politely received, and my people were equally the same. 4490. Being under the Spanish flag, could you have carried on a legitimate trade at the port of Amoy ? — Yes ; the Spaniards have had the privilege, but latterly they have not sent any ships there. 4491. Perhaps a legitimate trade was not your object? — Not at all ; we were trading in prohibited articles. 4492. Do you imagine that the contraband trade is more profitable than the authorized trade ? — I have never been in the authorized trade, and there- fore I cannot state that. 4493. Did any other British ships under the British flag prosecute the same trade that you did at that time ? — Yes, there was an English ship, the Merope, belonging to Calcutta; the Veletta, the Eugenia, the Jamecena, and the Dhaule schooner. 4494. What were those vessels ? — All English vessels belonging to the port of Calcutta. 4495. Where were they trading to ? — To Formosa, and the port of Nimpo, which is considerably to the north. 4496. Is not that in the province ofKiangnan? — I believe it is. 4497. Did those ships go to Amoy ? — One of them I think did, but they did nothing ; they knew that nothing could be done by the merchants. The Merope touched off Amoy, but it did not go in, because she could not trade in opium. 4 H 2 4498. Had 606 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 6 May 1830. 4498. Had you any communication with the commanders of those vessels ? — Frequently, although we had different interests, all except the Merope. "^' ■ ■ * ■ 4499. Was your interest the same with the Merope? — She had an agent of ours. 4500. Did you understand from the commanders of those vessels that they carried on the trade as easily as you did ? — With the same facilities ; although I believe I was rather more fortunate than they were, being engaged in the trade earlier. 4501 . At the ports you have named, do you know whether the import and export duties are paid to the government? — I am not aware of the duties ; I never heard the duties mentioned. 4502. Did the Americans ever engage in this trade? — American vessels have gone to the coast, but I believe on British account. 4503. Did the British vessels you have named visit any ports besides those you have mentioned ? — The Merope traded to the port of Chinchoo and the island of Formosa. 4504. Did the Merope go to Nimpo and the Cape of Good Hope ? — Yes ; she touched at every port on that coast. 4505. Which do you conceive is the best station for carrying on that trade? The best station I ever found was between the island of Namo and the Cape of Good Hope 4506. Why do you conceive that to be better ? — Being the centre between two very large towns. 4507. Have you ever been off the province of Fokien ? — Yes. 4508. What harbour did you go into there ? — I went into one of the ports of Chinchoo. 4509. What was the species of cultivation you saw when you landed there ? — The only species of cultivation I have seen was rice and sugar. 4510. You did not go into the tea country ? — No ; I have never seen any tea. I was in the neighbourhood of it, and I understood it was within a short distance of where I was. 4511. Does not the tea generally grow in the hilly districts? — All along the coast is a mountainous district. 4512. What did your crew consist of ? — Of all sorts ; English, natives of India, and natives of the Phillipines. 4513. What number of Englishmen had you? — I had sometimes from ten to twenty. 4514. What was the number of your crew ? — Forty. 4515. Did those Englishmen land ? — Yes, frequently. 4516. They had intercourse with the natives ? — Yes. 4517. Did SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. G07 4.517. Did you ever hear of any disturbance between them and the natives ? 6 May 1830. — Never the least disturbance. 4518. Were the crews generally well received by the natives? — Equally as P • ^ well as I was myself; they were allowed to walk about the fields, and to go into the houses. 4519. Were any British seamen on board the other ships ? — Yes. The Americans had all American seamen ; the Merope had ten or twelve English seamen. 4520. Do you know of the ships you have mentioned having British seamen on board? — It is most likely that the other ships had at least six English seamen on board as sea-cunnies. 4521. Did you ever understand that the commanders of those vessels experienced any inconvenience from that circumstance? — I never experienced the least inconvenience ; nor did I understand that any was experienced by the others. 4522. Did you find the coast of China generally in a state of good military defence - — I should say quite the contrary, because the greatest number of troops that ever I have seen was in the train of Mandarines, to the amount of about 500. 4523. How were those armed ? — They were dressed in red calico jackets with a large bamboo hat on, and with large wooden shoes ; some with bows and arrows, and some with matchlocks, and some with spears. 4524. Supposing you had had a Serjeant's party of English troops, what would have been the effect upon the Chinese soldiers ? — They would have run away. 4525. Did you ever go into their forts ? — Frequently. 4526. In what state were they ? — In a state of dilapidation. 4527. What was the state of the guns? — The guns were all dangerous to fire, being honey-combed ; and being laid between two pieces of wood, they could only be fired in a straight direction. 4528. Were the fortifications in a pretty good state? — No, quite ruinous; there were about forty or fifty men in each of the fortifications. 4529. What was the reason you had so many men in a brig of 200 tons only ? — The reason was that we had to beat up against the monsoon, and that we had a valuable cargo on board. 4530. Did not you find that the number was too large? — I reduced the number afterwards to thirty. 4531. Had you any Spaniards on board ? — I had one Spaniard to represent the flag, to be captain or supercargo. 45-32. Did you observe any British manufactures in the places you visited ? — Yes ; I frequently saw the Chinese wearing them, such as camlets, cloths. Ca.pt. J. Machie. 608 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 6 May 1830. cloths, long-ells, and some English blankets, English watches and English spy-glasses. 4533. Do not the Chinese of respectability generally wear two watches ? — That is always the case. 4534. Are not those watches almost entirely of English manufacture ? — Entirely English and French. 4535. Which predominate, the English or French ? — I believe the English predominate, because no makers in Canton can repair the French. 4536. Do you know why they wear two generally r — Because they say if one goes to sleep the other is awake. 4537. How did you find the climate from the month of November to the month of March? — Extremely cold ; the thermometer ranged from 45 to 60. 4538. Would there be a demand for English blankets ? — I should conceive there would be a demand for English blankets. 4539. Are they now generally purchased by those that can afford them ? — By every one that can afibrd them. 4540. What description of native woollen manufacture is there ? — The only native woollen manufacture I saw is in imitation of Cashmere shawls. I think it is manufactured of goat's hair; it is a fine sort of white flannel. 4541. Is it of a high price ? — It is not within the reach of the poor people at all. 4542. What is the common dress of the poor people ? — Blue cottons. 4543. Do you know where those cottons are manufactured? — In China. 4544. Do you know in what part ? — They are manufactured in all the provinces. I have seen them manufactured in every village I have gone into. 4545. Did you ever observe what sort of machinery they had for the manufacture of those cottons ? — A very rude loom, quite in a very old fashion. 4546. Did you ever compare the price of cotton so manufactured in China with the price of English cotton? — No, I never did; it is much dearer than English cotton, because English cottons sell in China at very fair prices, and they dye English long-cloths afterwards as a substitute for their cottons, and they are much cheaper. 4547. Do you know the proportion of cost ? — No. 4548. Did you see them spinning? — Yes. 4549. How is the cotton spun ? — The women spin v;ith their hands. 4550. And there is no sort of machinery, except a very rude loom, applied to the Chinese manufacture ? — None that I have seen. 4551. Were SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 609 4551. Were those cottons that they dye Indian or English cottons? — 6 May 1830. English. 4552. Do the natives prefer their own, being dearer? — Their own cottons V ■ ■ wear better ; but a cheap article is always a great object with the Chinese, even if it should not wear so well. 4553. Supposing there was a great trade carried on between England and China, do you not imagine that the cheap manufacture of England would to a considerable extent supplant the dear manufacture of China? — I have no doubt it would entirely. 4554. Is the trade you have described as being carried on when you were there still carried on ? — It is. 4555. In what year was this ? — In 1823 and 1824. Afterwards I lay as a depot-ship at Lintin. 4556. How long were you altogether in China? — Four years and a halfl 4557. How long is it since the Spaniards have given up the trade to the port of Amoy ? — About thirty years. As the junks go over now from Amoy to Manilla with the same goods, they can purchase them at a cheaper rate than they could get them at Amoy. 4558. What was the last year you were in China? — I was there five months in 1828, at Macao and Canton. 4559. In what year were the British ships you have mentioned there ? — They were there the same year as myself, and 1 left some of them lying there as depot-ships at Lintin ; they are lying there now as depot-ships. 4560. Do you know of any ships having been there last year? — No, I do not know of any ship. There was one vessel went up in 1828 when I was there, and delivered a cargo upon the coast. 4561. What are the depot-ships? — They are ships that lie outside of the islands at Macao, to receive opium, or any other goods that are wished to be deposited on board of them. 4562. Then you have no knowledge of any lawful trade carried on there at all ?— Not the least. 4563. Were the others obliged to move sometimes as well as you? — Yes; we moved as a favour to the Mandarins. The Mandarins come down once or twice a year, and send a person to warn you to shift yourselves. 4564. You are obliged to shift your station ? — We were not obliged to do it ; but it was to favour them, that they might make a report that it was all clear. 4565. What number of ships do you remember there at any one time? — I have seen as many as twenty ships at one time. 4566. How many European ships ? — I have seen ten European ships, and a considerable number of American ships. 4567. Did 610 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 6 May 1830. 45C7. Did those ships trade to the port of Amoy ? — No; there has been /" / M f "'^ trade done at the port of Amoy ; they traded to the island of Formosa p.. . ac le. ^^j Nimpo, and about the Cape of Good Hopej some of those merchants went to Amoy and different parts. 4568. In fact tliey were coast smugglers? — They were. 4569. Under what flags were they ? — The English flag ; all except the Americans, and the vessel I was in command of, which was a Spanish flag. 4570. Were there any Portuguese ? — There was sometimes a Portuguese vessel. 4571. You were understood to say, that you did not find it necessary to establish any stricter regulations with respect to intercourse with tiie shore than at other places ? — Not any ; I allowed my crew to go on shore at any time they pleased. 4572. Have you ever known any inconvenience from it? — Not any. ■ 4573. Have you known any to happen with any other ship ? — Not any. 4571. Was it the general practice of the ships? — It was; there was never the least disturbance. 4.575. Did you see the ten or twelve British seamen that you spoke of on board the Merope ? — Yes ; I was on board of her every time she came on the coast. 4576. Who commanded that ship? — Captain Perkins, a lieutenant of the navy. 4577- Do not you know that the country ships generally have sea-cunnies, that are natives of India? — Yes; but an opium ship being of considerable value, it is necessary to have an efficient crew on board ; and we prefer to have a few Englishmen, as being steady men, in preference to the natives of India; and the Merope, when she was on the coast, had a very valuable cargo on board of her. 4578. Do you remember the name of any of the depot-ships you have mentioned? — Yes, I remember them all. 4579. In your license was there any limitation as to the ports to which you were to go ? — I was quite independent of the Company. 4.580. Where did you get your license? — My owner was consul for the King of Spain at Canton, and he gave me a license whenever I went to sea. 4581. Have you been at Manilla ? — I never have, 4582. Is there much trade between Manilla and China? — A considerable trade in rice, and sonic China goods. 4583. Was there any other ship under Spanish colours besides yours ? — None ; and the vessel that I was in is sold. 4584. And there is now no trade under Spanish colours ? — None. 4585. Were SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. Gil 4585. Were you not offered to carry on a legitimate trade with Amoy 6 May 1830. under the Spanish Hag ? — Yes ; by the Viceroy of Amoy. 4580. What intercourse had you with him ?— He visited us on board the ship. ^^^^' '^' ^'"^*'^- 4587. How far were you from Amoy ? — We were in the port of Amoy, light off the palace. 4588. Wliat passed between you and the Viceroy upon that occasion ? Merely compliments. 45S9. In what terms did he offer you to trade with Amoy ?— He had to make a reference to another superior before he could give the terms. 4590. Was that reference ever made ? — We did not wait till he came. 4591. Did the Viceroy know that you had opium on board ? — No ; it was known to the opium dealers, but not to the Viceroy. 4592. How came he to offer you a legitimate trade ? — Because we hoisted our colours, 4593. Did he mention the word legitimate? — He said he would give us a free trade. 4594. Do you understand the Chinese language? — I do not understand it so as to write it ; I can speak it a little. 4595. Is saltpetre a prohibited article in China? — It is an article that by law is always obliged to be sold to the government, but it is principally sold to the outside dealers, who give a higher price for it. 4596. Did you converse with the Viceroy? — Yes, through an interpreter. 4597- Did he use the word legitimate ? — No ; he offered to give us a cargo in exchange for what we might give him, money or any thing else. He said, if we wished to have a cargo, he wished to renew the intercourse on the same terms as it had been before. 4598. What cargo would he have given you ? — Any thing we wished to purchase. 4599. What commodities could you have had from him ? — As we had no intention of exporting any thing, we made no inquiries. 4600. Is the saltpetre imported into China solely for the purpose of being converted into gunpowder? — Solely for gunpowder and fireworks; the Chinese use a great quantity of small fireworks. 4601. Is Amoy a very large town ? — A very large town ; there are nearly as many junks about there as about the port of Canton. 4602. Do you suppose it is as populous as the port of Canton ? — It is very difficult to say as to that. 4603. Did you find the country of China through which you went popu- lous or not? — Every part populous. When I have been lying at the Cape of Good Hope i iiave seen 1,000 fishing-boats going to sea in a morning; I have counted them. 4 I 4604. You 612 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 6 May 1830. 4604. You had no commercial intercourse witli the Viceroy ? — None. Capt. J. Mackie. '^SOS. Did he offer you to purchase any thing you had, and did he specify the kind of cargo he was ready to give you in return ? — He specified that he wished to renew intercourse upon the old establishment, and any cargo that we wished to purchase he would do it in the old way. 4606. Is there not a considerable foreign trade carried on with Amoy ? — Yes, principally to Manilla and Sincapore. 4607. Did you know of any junks that went from Amoy to Sincapore ? — Yes, there are a considerable number. 4608. Are they large junks? — About the size of 500 or 6OO tons. 4609. What do they take to Sincapore r — A Chinese cargo consists of a va- riety of things ; crockery- ware, coarse teas, and every thing they expect to sell. 4610. What did the junks bring back from Sincapore ? — Sandal-wood and opium are the staple articles. 4611. From your experience and observation of the Chinese ports, what are the articles of European manufacture which you consider would obtain the most ready sale ? — I should think woollens would be the most ready article ; camlets, fine cloths, and coarse white cottons. 4612. What should you say of iron, in the shape of bars, and of hardware ? — Iron in the shape of bars would sell ; I do not know how hardware would sell. The Chinese would like it better in the unmanufactured state, in order that they might manufacture it as they pleased. 4613. Is iron extensively used in China ? — Very extensively used. 4614. Where is it principally obtained ? — I believe in the country. 4615. Do you know any thing of the cost of its production ? — No; but 1 know that to get any iron wrought up in China will cost you as much as twelve dollars a pecul ; that is what I have paid for iron from Canton. 4616. Do you know anything of the relative cost of their own earthen- ware with that which might be exported of similar quality from tiiis country? — I do not know. I think the Chinese could produce their own earthen- ware cheaper than it could be exported from this country. 4617. Has not it been exported from Sincapore ? — Yes ; I have often had crockery on board. As a depot-ship I have often received goods, such as woollen goods, crockery-ware, glass, and Birmingham hardware, which have been sent up to the port of Canton and sold. 4G1S. Wliat was the general quality of the Chinese iron that you saw r — 1 think it is of very inferior quality ; it rusts very soon, and decays. 4619. Do you know in what part of China the manufacture is? — No. 4620. Is there much demand for leather ; do they use leather much ? — Yes; the opium chests are covered up with old sheepskins, and they were very fond of purchasing them. 4621. Did you sell them well ? — Yes, pretty well. Captain SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 613 Captain WILLIAM MAXFIELD called in, aixl examined. 4622. Are you an officer in the military navy of the East-India Company r a May 1830. — I am on the retired list at present; I have been an officer in the service. 4623. How long did you reside in India?— An uninterrupted period of ^-'^^P'-^^'-^fc^field. nearly twenty-five years. 4624. How long is it since you returned ? — I returned from India in 1823. 4625. In what capacity did you serve in India besides that immediately connected with your official duties as an officer? — I accompanied the embassy to Synd as Surveyor in 1807 o'' ^80^ ; I officiated for nine years as Assistant in the Surveyor-general's department, or Deputy Surveyor-general of India in Bengal ; I was employed in all the expeditions against the European ene- mies of my country in India between 1798 and 1823; I commanded two ships on the expeditions to Java and the Isle of France. On the Java expedi- tion I officiated as Deputy Agent-general of Transports also. 4626. Were you employed with the British army in Guzzerat ? — I was. I accompanied the army in Guzzerat a short time, and afterwards held a civil situation at Poorbunder, in the province of Guzzerat. 4627. How long did you hold that situation? — I only held the civil situa- tion a few months ; I begged to resign it to go on the expedition to the Isle of France. 4628. What parts of India have you visited? — I visited almost all the principal ports of India, Arabia, and Persia, the Red Sea, and the Eastern Archipelago, and the Bay of Bengal. 4629. Did not you assist in the expedition to Egypt ? — 1 was in one of the ships which proceeded on the expedition to Egypt. 4G30. Have you ever visited any of the ports of China? — No; I have merely been in the China seas cruizing. 4631. Have you ever paid any considerable attention to the commercial affairs of the East-India Company ? — I have paid some attention to it, in con- sequence of having determined some years ago upon writing a work descrip- 1 tive of the different branches of the East-India Company's service. I was led to project such a work from observations I had occasion to make in the course of my service ; however, I have since relinquished the intention ; but that led me to consider it more maturely than I otherwise should have done, as it ' formed no portion of my professional pursuits. 4632. Do you conceive that there are any improvements that might take place in the points you considered ? — Yes ; it was the defect in the various branches of the service that led me to the consideration ; there were many defects in the different branches of the establishment, so evident, that it led 4 I 2 me 614 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 6 May 1830. me to consider the subject, in order to trace the cause of the defects, and to point out, to the best of my observation, a remedy. Capt IV.Maxfield. 4633. Are the defects you allude to defects in the service with which you were yourself connected ? — There were defects evident and monstrous in the corps I belonged to. 4634. Do you confine your observations as to those defects to that corps, or do you apply them to any other parts of the affairs of the East-India Com- pany ? — No, I do not confine them to that. I observed defects in efficiency in various branches of the service ; and it was that inefficiency tliat led me to consider the subject, for the purpose of giving a detailed account of it, in order that a remedy might be applied hereafter, 4G35. Have you ever been engaged in trade ? — Never, upon any occasion. 4636. Have you had any means of becoming acquainted with the East-India Company's commercial sliipping ? — I have. 4637. What class of ships have the East-India Company been in the habit of employing in their commerce? — Of various classes j latterly greater variety than formerly ; I speak of the last twenty-five years ; they have some larger ships now than they had at that time. 1 believe the regular ships employed by the East-India Company are from 7OO to 1400 tons; other ships are occa- sionally engaged in their service, as extra and chartered ships, of a smaller description. 4638. Do you conceive that the large class of vessels of the East-India Com- pany possess any advantage over the class of vessels used by the Americans or the free-traders of this country for the China trade? — I understand that the large class of ships are subject to less expense with reference to the port- duties paid at Canton ; but in every other point of view, as far as regards the employment of merchantmen, i should say the smaller class ship is better adapted for many reasons. A small class ship of an inferior description would, in proceeding to the port of Calcutta, take in her cargo at once ; a large ship takes in her cargo at Saugur, which is a very considerable way down the river ; it is in fact the entrance to the river Hooghley. The con- sequence of that is, that a great expense is incurred in lading those ships, and at different periods of the year the tide is so rapid that it creates consi- derable delay as well as expense. The delay in a large ship like that might possibly extend to fifteen days if a boat came down one day too late, for unless she went out on a spring-tide she could not get out until the next spring-tide. 4639. Do you know the port of Canton ? — No. 4640. Do you know whether those observations which apply to the river Hooghley apply to the port of Canton ? — They must apply to every large ship which cannot go up to the port to which she is proceeding for a cargo. If the communication must be made by means of boats, an increasd expense must Cupt.W.MaxJield. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 015 must be the consequence ; and I suppose it applies partially at Canton, and f! iMay 1830. to all ports situate in rivers. 4()i'l. Do you conceive the East-India Company's ships peculiarly fitted for carrying troops ? — k large ship is certainly much better adapted for carrying troops than a smaller ship. 461-2. Are not the troops sent out from this country usually accommodated in the orlop deck ? — I have heard so. 4643. Have you ever heard of the Company's ships being employed as men-of-war ? — I have heard that there have been some of them armed occasionally. 4644. What class of man-of-war of an enemy should you think a Company's China ship of 1300 tons burthen, with 30 guns and 130 men, would be a match for ? — It would be difficult to say what she would be a match for. I conceive a ship of 1300 tons, with 130 men, scarcely sufficient men to manage her in action; and if she had any number of guns on board, they may be considered inanimate pieces of iron, without a sufficient number of men to use them. But to say what she would fill! a capture to would be merely matter of opinion; but that can better be ascertained by asking what vessels they have beaten off, and when they have been captured. 464,:"). Do you recollect the action between Admiral Linois and a fleet of East-Indiamen ? — I recollect the action. I believe there were sixteen India- men of the largest description, with a number of country ships. The French force consisted of an eighty-four gun ship, two frigates, two sloops, and a brig; and I conclude that the judicious conduct of Commodore Dance, his firmness, his decision, and his good management, induced the French admiral to form an erroneous estimate of his actual force, which led to a result no less creditable to the British than disgraceful to the French. Tojudge of the severity of an action, one must look at the result of the killed and wounded. It is stated that the action lasted about forty-five minutes; now the killed and wounded on the side of the British is stated at one killed and one wounded ; and the French admiral declared in his letter to General Daccain, that he sustained no loss whatever. An India- man is a very formidable-looking ship, and is often painted like a first-rate man-of-war ; she would at any time be taken, at a considerable distance, for a sixty-four; consequently, if the French were not disposed to fight, they had very good reason for imagining that there were a few sixty-fours out of the sixteen, and they had consequently very good reason for running away. 4646. Have you ever known an Indiaman captured by a French privateer? — Yes, I have. 4647. Do you remember the name ? — Yes, I recollect the capture of the Kent. 4648. Where was she captured? — In the bay of Bengal. 4649. What 616 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 6 May 1830. 4649. What was the size of the Kent?. — I believe the Kent was an India- ."77" ,, man ol" about 800 tons. ( apt.lJ .Max/ie/a. 4650. How many guns had she ? — About thirty guns ; I believe she had between 100 and 200 troops on board. 4651. What was the Kent captured by ? — By the Confiance. 465S. What was the size of her? — About 300 tons ; I happened to be on board her after the peace of Amiens. 4653. Do you know the number of guns she carried? — About sixteen or eighteen guns. 4654. Do you remember any other capture of an Indiaman ? — I cannot call to my recollection. 4655. Do you recollect the Triton ? — Yes, I do ; she was about the same size as the Kent. 4656. What was the Triton captured by ? — By a pilot schooner ; which pilot schooner was taken by Monsieur Surcouef and a few French prisoners who escaped from Fort William, went down the river in a budgerow, and seized a pilot schooner at the entrance of the river j they then ran out to sea, and falling in with the Triton, I believe ofFGanjam, they boarded her under pretence of piloting her, and made her their prize. 4657. When did that happen? — I do not remember; but I believe the commander and officers of the Kent behaved as bravely, and defended the ship as long as in their power. I never heard the slightest slur thrown upon the conduct of any of the parties ; and her capture possibly may be in some measure attributable to the peculiar structure oflndiamen, which carry, very injudiciously, most of their guns below ; consequently, in the event of her being boarded, most of the men are below when they ought to be on deck. I think an Indiaman would be much more formidable if, instead of having thirty guns below, she had twenty on deck. 4658. Do you think the sea-risk of an Indiaman, equipped in the usual way, greater or less than that of a merchant ship equipped in the ordinary way ? — I believe at Lloyd's the insurance is precisely equal between a good shij) marked A. and any of the East-India ships, therefore in that point of view the risk is considered equal ; however, personally, I should say a mer- chant ship laden is less safe encumbered with guns than if she was without them, as far as sea-worthiness goes. 4659. Do you ever remember an instance of a vessel being overset on that account? — Yes, I recollect one of the Company's ships of 800 tons, called the Devonshire, overset in my presence in the river Hooghley, in a regular north-wester. 4660. Do you attribute that loss to her having ports? — Yes; the north- wester threatened for two or three hours before it came on ; the sky was completely blackened ; she was taking in her cargo, and all her ports were opened ; SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. Gl? opened ; when the north-wester took her she heeled over ; before they <> May 1830. could shut her ports she filled and went down, and she remained with her mast heads only above water. Capt.W Maxfield. 4661. Do you remember any ships being lost in the years I8O7 and 1808, between the Cape of (iood Hope and the Isle of France? — Yes, I recollect it as a matter of history. 4662. Do you consider that they are more liable to that danger from their having ports and guns than if they had none ? — I have stated that as my opinion with respect to merchant ships generally ; but perhaps that fact, with respect to this fleet, would be best ascertained by inquiring whether there were not some country ships in company. I have heard that there were some country ships in company, and that none of them were lost. 4663. Do you consider the East-India Company's present mode of char- tering ships as the most economical that can be adopted ? — Certainly not. 4664. Will you explain the reasons why you are of that opinion ? — I think if reference be had to some papers laid before the Court of Proprietors in 1826, a list of which I have here, a list of the shipping will be found which were employed at that time. Some of them have been taken up as high as 26 odd pounds a ton, and subject to an additional £1. 10*. if sent to any intermediate port in India. Now looking at tiiat very list laid before the Court of Proprietors, I find that ships may be had at a mucli lower rate, and that they have been had by the East-India Company for a single voyage for £12. 5.y. 4665. Are the tenders for the Company's ships publicly advertised for ? — I believe they are publicly advertised for. 4666. Do you conceive that is the cheapest mode of getting ships fur- nished to the Company ? — I should, provided the advertisements embraced that class of shipping which is to be had in the greatest abundance in the shipping market ; but if the advertisement describes ships of which it is well known there are very few, or perhaps none to be had, I conceive the advertisement goes rather to meet the ship than the ship the advertisement. To illustrate the fact, I would put a case hypothetically ; suppose the Com- pany advertise for a ship to be built in the Island of Penang, of teak, to bring home a cargo, and at such a date, I put it to the Committee to judge whether there would be likely to be any competition to meet such an advertisement. 4667. Have you made any calculation of the amount which might be saved by a different mode of contracting than now pursued ? — Yes j I have a calculation, the result of which exhibits the saving that might be effected, if the ships engaged by the East-India Company, instead of being taken up for six voyages and for three voyages, had been engaged for one voyage, at the rate exhibited in the statement laid by the Company before the Court of Proprietors, a saving might be effected per voyage, imagining the 618 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : fi May 1830. the whole of the ships to have performed one voyage complete, of no less •: — than £5J4;02S ; but if instead of taking them up for one voyage, at £13. 6s. C n/if.il.Marfte/d. ^yhi^h is the average of the single voyage ships, they had been obtained at what I conceive they might be, at 10 guineas or £10 per ton, a saving then would have been effected of upwards of £857,823. 4668. What time would the voyage occupy ? — Looking at the distance they have to go, and what a free trader could do, and of course whatever a free trader could do the Company's ships ought to be able to do, they ought to do it in twelve months ; but if the East-India Company have generally engaged, as I conceive they have done, a great deal more tonnage than they actually require, of course the expense must be com- mensurate. 4669. Should you say that, in the present mode of management, there is £700,000 or £800,000 thrown away by the Company in their charge for shipping per annum? — No; 1 have taken the whole of the Company's tonnage employed at the time the papers were laid before the Court of Proprietors; it inchides forty-seven ships then chartered, and they had seven ships of their own. Those two bodies of shipping taken together collectively amounted to 64,000 tons ; therefore I have taken the whole of that quantum of tonnage, and said, if the tonnage costs such a sum before they have completed one voyage, and they could procure shipping in the market to do it at £10. lOs., the saving upon that quantum of tonnage will be the amount I have stated. 4670. You have stated, that if the voyage performed by the East-India Company were performed by a free trader, it would be performed in one year out and home ? — Unquestionably. But if she had to go to Bombay and be detained, and then to go to Madras, as the Company's ships fre- quently do, there is no saying what will be the length of the voyage. But they do not do it free of expense, because they frequently pay demurrage for such detention. 4671. What is the average time occupied by the Company in this voyage .'* — Tiuit is a question not easily answered, unless you particularize some particular ship. I have known some of the Company's ships cruising from one side of India to another for a cargo. I have known the Carmarthen and the Herculeum, ships taken up in war time at an enormous rate. I made a voyage out to sea cruising, and came in again, and found the Carmarthen still lying at anclior. 467-2. Do you know the longest time occupied by a Company's ship in performing the voyage out and home? — I cannot positively speak to that fact, but 1 suppose some of them make the voyage in fourteen months. 4673. Do you think that is about the average? — No, it is impossible to average them, because many causes may operate to their detention. 4674. Are such causes of very long detention very frequent? — 1 do not imagine that such very long detentions are very iiequent ; but I imagine that SELI-XT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 619 that it may be clearly known that a considerable detention occurs, by the R May 1830. papers at the India-House. But I would not press so much upon the delay — 77 of the voyage as upon the ship being sent often half-laden, because the ships ^"/'''•'^^•^'«^««^- that go from Bombay to China are not above half-laden on the Company's account, therefore the remainder of that freight is a dead loss. Perhaps, to illustrate the high price of ships, I need only state, that his Majesty has been building in the Company's dock-yard at Bombay seventy-fours, at per ton much less than the freight per ton of the 1200-ton ships in war time ; and he has built frigates at a lower rate than some of the ships now taken by the East-India Company sail per ton, 4675, At what rate have they built frigates at Bombay ? — The Trincomalee frigate, of 1065 tons, was built for £^9- 8.5. ^2d. per ton ; these are built of teak. The Cornwallis, seventy-four, of 1809 tons, was built at £30. 14s. a ton ; the Victor, of 38'2 tons, was built at £23. 95. '^d. a ton ; the Zebra, of 385 tons, was built at £24. 6s. "Jd. a ton ; the Sphinx, of 239 tons, was built at £24. 6.9. (id. a ton ; the Camden, of 240 tons, was built at £25. 35. 10^. a ton. 4676. You have compared the price per ton at which the Government built ships in the Company's dock-yard, with the rate of freight per ton at which the Company take up their ships ; for what purpose do you make that comparison ? — It strikes one as a singular fact, that you could build a ship for a great deal less money, by one-third, than you could hire one ; and 1 believe the price of the seventy-fours built at Bombay now to be enormous, from the injudicious manner of getting the timber. I could suggest a mode by which the price of timber would be reducd one-half. 4677' Do the Company ever build at all for commercial purposes ? — Yes ; the Company have seven ships of their own. 4G78. Can you compare the expense at which those ships were built by the Company, with the expense of the ships built by the Government at Bombay ? — I cannot speak to the rate at which they build their commercial ships, but I can pronounce upon what it cost to build some of their pilot schooners at Bombay ; I must speak to that from recollection. I recollect, just before I left Bengal, some pilot schooners were built for the Company's service, which appeared to be at such an enormous expense that it led the Marine Board there to animadvert upon the charge ; and the papers happened to come to the office one day when I was there, and I took them up, and on going into the papers, at the request of a gentleman present, I found that those schooners cost upwards of £50 a ton, while the king was building for £30. It appeared very monstrous, and it induced the Board to write to the Bengal Government, who wrote for an explanation. The explanation sent round by Mr. Meriton, the Superintendent at Bombay, stated that those ves- sels were so expensive in consequence of being entirely fastened with copper; that the former pilot schooners, of which a calculation had been submitted, previously built for the Bengal Government in Mr. Dundas's time, had been 4 K fastened 620 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 6 May 1830. fastened with iron ; but it was singular enough, on analyzing the account, it ": turned out that there was more iron employed in the copper-fastened vessels Capt.n .Maxfield. ^^^^^ i\iQ\Q was in those that were built all of iron. 4679. Was that ever explained ? — No, I believe there was never any satis- factory explanation given after that. 4680. Is this all matter of recollection, or matter of record? — It is matter of recollection now ; but it is deeply impressed on my mind, because I hap- pened to have the papers in my hand, and I recollect the coirespondence between the Marine Board at Calcutta and the Government of Bombay upon the subject. 4681. On comparing the expense of the ships engaged in the private trade with the ships engaged in the Ciiina trade by the Company, are you aware that the size and the equipment of those ships employed in the Com- pany's service are regulated by law? — No, I am not aware of that fact. By the 58th Geo. III., I see the Act of the 39th and the 50th and the 5lst are repealed, and since that it has not been imperative to equip those ships in that manner. 4682. Are you not aware that since that a very great change has been pro- duced in the Company's commercial marine? — I am not aware of that. 4683. When did the repeal take place ? — In 1818. 4684. In what year was this transaction? — I think it must have been about 1820 or 1821 that the correspondence respecting pilot schooners took place. 4685. In speaking of the ships which the Company were employing in the year 1826, do you mean to compare them with the ships taken up for single voyages in the year 1830 ? — I beg to submit to the Committee a statement of all the ships tiiployed by the East-India Company in the year 1826, de.^crih- ing the name, the size of the ship, the rate at which she is taken, and all the particulars. It is from those ships I formed that statement. It is by calcu- lation between the high-freighted ships and the low-freighted ones, in that statement furnished by the India House to me, that I have drawn the con-- parison ; but I have not lost sight of their own ships, seven in number, which are sailing at the rate of about £27 a ton. 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'^ CO CO CO "^OOOOOCO OOOOOO'O OOOCO oo o , Oico ot ct a a -^lor^r^f^^O -^vococD -^^ »o o o 00 00 O rH oo OCDO 00500 OiOjO caiooooio^^i oo — CDCOOOOOCXJOO f-l f-i tN .-« r^ ,.* F^ « CO *— I X '"OCOCOOICO O'OOCCOOOO'.^ c< t^co •+ CD 05 t^ CO o CO cOi r-CD -"OOior^cii^o-*-cocooo3 « C!20r^iO'*^iocot^-*cor^T-.oo>ococo lo'C lo xco c^oo'^^cDr^rHO l^CI ^OOO'O^OOIO^GO i-tt^ ^lOCO-^^CICJCOOl SP ►1- a a £ I. -a o _ o Ui . t- «-:; •:5 J=-= C3 ^ ^ ■ o o •3 == ; ° o o o o >: a c -a 3 o >" 3 o) ^ >s « s s SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 623 No. 2. In January 1826, it appeared by papers laid before the Court of Proprietors, that the East-India Company had then engaged in their trade forty-seven ships ; viz. twenty- four for six voyages, some of which were hired as high as £26. 10* per ton; others for three voyages ; antl only five for one voyage ; the average rate of freight on such five single- voyage ships was only £13. 6.f. per ton each. Now tlie chartered ships above mentioned, forty-seven in number, collectively amount to about 55,601 tons, and the rate of freight above stated £. s. d. cost the Company per voyage, exclusive of demurrage 1,187,77B The Company have also seven ships of their own, amounting to about 8,897 tons, and which, by the accounts submitted in 1826, average, taking them altogether for the voyage they have per- formed, about £27. 8*. 8c/. per ton, making the amount of expense per voyage on the seven, of 244,074 Or the total charge for freight per voyage 1,431,852 It is therefore evident that if the Company, instead of engsiging ships as above, for six and three voyages, had liired ships for one voyage at £13. Gs. per ton, the amount charged for 64,498 tons of shipping would have been only „, 857,823 8 Effecting a saving per voyage of no less than 574,028 12 If, however^ the Company were desirous to conduct tlieir commerce with India and China in the most profitable manner, they would employ such class of ships as the British market oilers in abundance, and their tonnage might bo all obtained at dClO, or probably £10. 10*. per ton, by which means a saving in their charges for tonnage per voyage might be effected to the amount of £750,000 sterling. The Company, however, by reference to the papers at the India House, showing how the ships engaged by them are laden, appear little disposed to economize in this brancii of expense, as those ships, except on the return-voyage from China, are seldom more than two-thirds laden on the Company's account. 6 May 1830. CaptW.Maxfield. 4686. Did you mean to say, in a previous part of your evidence, that the amount of £500,000 might be saved between the average rates of the ships in the service of the Company in the year 1826, and what might be now sup- plied if competition in the market was made use of? — Not quite so ; my statement is to draw a comparison of what the Company have done them- selves with respect to five ships taken up for single voyages, which ships they got at £13. Qs. per ton, and I say that suppose they had taken them all up in that way, such would have been the saving ; but my last statement goes to illustrate what might have been done if they had been had at £10, which I consider a sort of market freight. 4687. Are you not aware that the Company were obliged by the last Act to take up ships for six voyages? — 1 am aware that there is an Act of Parlia- ment which enjoins, that ships taken up for the trade with India and China shall be taken up for six voyages 5 but I am also aware that there is an Act which 6€4 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 6 May 1830. which permits the East-India Company to take ships up for one voyage to C t W Max field ^'^'"^ > those are the ships that I propose to have taken up. 4688. Did you mean to state that in the year 182G the Company did take a certain number of ships at £13. 105. per ton ? — There are no ships taken up in that statement in 1826, the last is in August 18^5. Here are some ships taken up at £10. 19?. to proceed to North America; but I imagine they might be had as well for one purpose as the other. 4689. Are you aware that the East-India Company has during the currency of their present charter taken up a number of ships for six voyages at from £21 to £26 per ton, and that, per voyage, a good free-trader might be had from £8 to £10 per ton in the same year? — Of course my answer is but mat- ter of opinion. I cannot decide upon what a free-trader miglit possibly be had for ; but it is pretty notorious : and I should only say, if I had a free- trader to employ her myseU, I should be very much obliged to the Company to take her for six voyages instead of one, and therefore I should think that is in favour of the six-voyage ship. 4690. It appears by that statement, that the rate of freight at which the Company take up ships fcr six voyages is higher than that at which they take them up t"or one voyage ? — Unquestionably. 4691. What is the reason of that difference ? — I consider it is because there is less competition. '1 here is very little competition in 1200 or 1300-ton ships; there is nobody but the owner of a China ship hardly that can think of tendering, there is nobody else in market; therefore the competition is confined to a ^evf dozen individuals, and I believe few persons ever build a 1200-ton ship unless they have very good reason to think they have interest enough to get her employed. But, however, to illustrate why the Company have those ships, it will be necessary to go a little farther back into the Com- pany's history. In looking back to the history of the East-India Company, and tlie style of equipment which seems to have been followed up to the present hour, the reasons which induced such equipment having long since subsided, it may be worth while to remark, that when the ships were first fitted out, and armed with guns and a large proportion of men, the India seas were infested with freebooters and pirates, formidable, and of course their commerce was in danger without such equipment ; and at that time, in the early part of the Com[iany's history, the ships fitted out by the East- India Company were in all respects formidable as men-of-war. His Majesty's ships were much less efficient than they are at present, and the difference was not so great then between East-Indiamen and men-ot-war. 4692. Now the Company take up a diflcrent class of ships for single voy- ages r — Yes, they do. 4693. Is there any distinction between the Act as to the class of ships which they are permitted to take up for six voyages? — I cannot speak as to the precise terms of the Act ; but 1 should imagine that the Legislature have no motive in circumscribing the conduct of the Company in the manage- ment SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 6^5 ment of their commerce, and that any Acts which have been framed for the 6 May 1830. government of the Company in taking up their ships have been most lii. Can you state, for instance, what the price for dyeing woollens is in London ? — I do not know ; I have not turned my attention to it for llie last four or five years. 4816. You stated, that the long ells now purchased by the Company are at much lower prices than they used to be formerly ; are the whole of the woollens purchased by the Company lower in price now than they used to be ? — I should think they are. 4817. Are you aware that there has been a very considerable falling off in the export of woollens by the Company to China ; for example, between 1810 and 18'i8 ? — I should think upon cloths there was not a falling off ; upon long ells I should think there is. 4818. If the Parliamentary Returns state that in 1810 there were 237,103 pieces exported by the Company, and in 1828 only 123,317, you are not able to account for that difference ? — The impression upon my mind was, that the quantity of cloth was rather increased, but that of long ells reduced ; but I cannot explain the reason. 4819. You stated that the Americans buy a lighter description of long ell ; do you not imagine that they find that more suited to the China market, and therefore export it ? — I cannot say. 4820. Are you aware that the export of woollens by the Americans to China has considerably increased ? — I should think it had not. 4821. Was the dyeing carried on at a higher or lower rate of profit than that which prevailed in other branches of commercial adventure at the period when you were engaged in it ? — I gave it up, because it left little profit. 4822. Are the conditions of contract imposed by the Company so vexa- tious as to raise the price? — I never considered them vexatious; I always considered them as necessary to preserve the quality of the goods they ex- ported. 4823. To what amount are their rejected cloths depreciated in price, if sold to merchants? — I was offered 1,000 pieces last year that had been re- jected ; and, as far as my recollection goes, they were offered at a reduction of about five per cent, from the contract price of the Company. 4824. Did you ever experience any inconvenience from having cloths that you had furnished to the Company rejected ? — I have had tliem re- jected. 4825. Do they not often reject them for being a little lighter ? — They do. 4 M 4826. Is Mr. W. Walford. 636 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 10 May 1880. 4826. Is not it very difficult to act up to the exact letter of the Company's contract in a large order? — Not at all. 4827. You stated that you had supplied considerable quantities of long ells to the Americans ; did you ever supply any to Messrs. Baring & Co.? — I do not recollect that ever I did ; I may have sold them to their agent. I believe that when they first went into the trade, they employed an agent to purchase for them. 4828. Has it been your practice, when you have sold goods on American account, to pack those goods? — No, I never pack them. 4829. Is it consistent with your knowledge what marks were put upon them ? — No, I have lost sight of them after they were delivered from my warehouse. 4830. In cases where goods have been returned to you by the East- India Company, on what terms have you been able to part with them ? — It de- pended entirely upon how inferior they were to the standard they ought to have been ; it varies from five to ten per cent. ; perhaps not more than ten per cent. 4831. Are the conditions imposed by the Company, upon a preparation of those goods under the contracts, such as to render the manufacture of them much more difficult than for a private merchant? — I should think not; I have known one manufacturer have 10,000 long ells looked over or inspect- ed, and not more than four or five pieces rejected. 4832. In making a tender under those contracts of the Company, do you take into the account, in your calculation, the conditions they impose ? — I am only the agent of the manufacturers, and they make the tenders ; for- merly the agents used to make the tenders, and we were never instructed by our manufacturers to make any allowance for that. 4833. As agents for those manufacturers, had you ever to answer the demands of private merchants ? — Continually ; it was part of my business. 4834. Was there any difference between the tenders you made to private merchants and those to the Company, in point of price? — There was no ma- terial difference. We would rather sell to the Company, and perhaps would sell cheaper to them than to private merchants, because we were more secure of our money ; and because at a private merchant's, where credit is given, I charge two and a half per cent, for a guarantee. 4835. Then the conditions imposed by the Company, you conceive, have no effect in raising the price of the manufactures ? — I never heard them com- plained of, till within these four or five years. 483G. Is it the custom of the trade to sell the rejected articles at their cost in tile white state, supposing them to be dyed ? — The practice of the Company, until within these last four or five years, has been to buy the whole of their goods in the white state ; the purchasing in the dyed state has been only lately introduced by them. What sacrifice they might make on SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 637 on those dyed goods that were rejected, I do not know, 1 know that ^^ ^^^ ^^^' 1,000 cloths that were offered to me last year, were offered at a reduction ^ iv~Walf rf of about five per cent. ; they were dyed and they were scarlets and purples, and the value of the dyeing constituted a great deal more than the five per cent. 4837. Are you aware tiiat, with the exception of broad cloths, there is a falling off in every article of woollens in the year 1S28, as compared with 1810? — I have no means of referring to dates ; I am aware that the Com- pany's export of long ells now is less than it was in former years. 4838. Are you aware that in some years the export of long ells on Ame- rican account has increased ? — I am not aware of that, nor do I think it has increased in the proportion in which the Company's has fallen off. I think that, last year, the American exports decreased. Mr. WILLIAM IRELAND, called in and examined. 4839. You are a partner in the house of William Ireland and Company ? Mr. W. Ireland. — I am. 4840. Where do you carry on your business ? — In London in Alderman- bury, and in Gloucestershire at Chalford near Stroud. 4841. What description of cloths do you and your partners chiefly manu- facture ? — Principally cloths adapted for the China market. 4842. What do you call them ?— There are three descriptions ; the first are Spanish stripes, the second supers, and the third worsters. 4843. What is the mode of supplying the East-India Company r — By contract. 4844. Is it under contract offered to your house only, or to the public ? — To all the respectable manufacturers either in Yorkshire or Gloucestershire. I have a circular which I received from the Company for a contract, inviting tenders from all the manufacturers. [The witness produced the same.] 4845. Is it sent to all the respectable manufacturers ? — I never knew it refused to any respectable manufacturer who made an application for it. 4846. How long have you been in the habit of supplying cloths to the Company ? — Eleven years in my own firm : but I was seven years with Messrs. Fryer and Telford. 4847. In this circular are there any clauses more or less objectionable in your opinion ? — I do not apprehend there are ; at least I have not had any complaint from my connexions respecting the clauses. 4848. Particularly with reference to the Sd, 5th, 7th, Sth, and 11th ; do you apprehend they are essential to protect the Company from being im- 4 M 2 posed Mr. IV, Ireland. 638 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 10 May 1830. posed upon, and put to great inconveniences ? — I think they are ; the third clause respects the weight and length of the cloth. 4849. All of which is ascertained by overlookers appointed by the Com- pany ? — It is. 4850. Do you consider that they are judges of cloth ? — I consider them very good judges of cloth. 4851. Do they ever reject without proper cause, in your opinion? — I think there is frequently cause for a great many more rejections than there are. 4852. In the event of a trifling difference in quality being found, is it the practice of the Company to take it, giving the turn to the manufacturer? — It has been the practice with me and my connexions. 4853. In the event of any cloths being rejected by the Company, how have you disposed of them? — I think the first serious objections were in 1819 and 1820 •, they were Spanish stripes; and I disposed of them to Mr. Henry Hughes, who afterwards disposed of tliem to Mr. Everett for shipping through the Americans to China. 4854. Were they inferior in quality ? — They were inferior in quality ; and we sold them at a considerable loss. 4855. At what loss ? — Tlie contract price of the Company at that time was £13. 155. per piece ; and I sold the rejected cloths to Mr. Everett and Mr. Hughes at tiiat period at £11. 14s., which was £2. 1*. per piece loss upon them. 4856. Were those dyed cloths or white ? — They were white. The Com- pany always purchased in white then ; it is only very recently they have purchased dyed cloths ; the last year was the first season they have pur- chased the whole quantity of Spanish stripes dyed. 4857- When you were in the habit of offering goods to the Company, did the conditions of the contract impose upon you the necessity of putting an extra price upon the article ? — I should conceive not ; at all events, we never lay on an extra price for them. I always go down previous to the contract taking place, and consult with my partners, because we are guided entirely by the state of the wool market; I have never known that we have laid on any thing for extra risk, in consequence of the Company's conditions. 4858. Is not the mode of payment by the Company in ready money at a certain time after ilelivery ? — We consider the Company's payment preferable to any other, because we can calculate to an hour on getting the money, provided we fulfil our part of the contract. 4859. Do you find that those contracts in any way give you more trouble in selling to the Company than in selling to individuals? — I do not ; in fact 1 had a very recent instance to the contrary, by the last fleet that went out to SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. G39 to China ; I had a great deal more difficulty in supplying 200 ends of cloth 10 May 1830. to an individual that shipped them for one of the captains, than I ever had — — even with the Company. ^^''- ''■ ^re/ti>„/. 4860. Do you know whether the Company have increased or decreased their orders of late? — When I first commenced tiie business in 181'J, the Company siiipped 7.000 pieces, which is lljOOOends; they used to buy them at that period in whole cloths, now they buy them in ends ; they have increased their j)urchase of Spanish striped cloths to SI, 000 ends ; they first increased about the year 1824 to 10,000 pieces, and since that period they have increased to 12,000 pieces. There was also an increase of the supers at that period ; there were 2,000 pieces of supers contracted for ; there are now 3,000 contracted for, which go to China. 4SGl. All those articles have been supplied from Gloucestershire ? — The greater part of those articles were supplied from Gloucestershire ; some few from the Yorkshire manufactories, but very few. 4862. Has not this increase of the Company's exports been very beneficial to the labouring classes and the manufacturers ? — I can only speak as to my own district. Had it not been for the Company's trade last winter, I am perfectly satisfied that some hundreds of our people must have starved, for the poor's rate would not have supported them at all. I am speaking of the parish of Bisley. 4863. Have you found the Company arbitrary in their dealings with you ? — 1 have had no reason to complain of the Company. I find them just in their dealings ; and I am satisfied that if we had not the restrictions in the cir- culars we have, the Company would be very much imposed upon. 4864. What restrictions do you mean ? — I mean with respect to weight and length. 4865. You have stated that the ultimate disposition of the Company's re- jected broad cloths was for the American market? — It was some few years ago. About fifteen years ago, there was a demand for this description of cloths for pelisses ; they were bought up by the job-houses, who supplied Cranbourn alley and that neighbouriiood ; but recently that demand has been done away with, and better clotli is made use of. 4866. Is it within your knowledge that when the Company's circulars are issued, the manufacturers meet together to ti.x the price at which to tender ? — Such a thing has been attempted some years ago, but the manufacturers are of such a jealous disposition that it is impossible for them ever to unite together ; and so particular are we, that I generally leave London on the night on which we make the tender, and I am closeted with my partners all the day. We never coukl combine together. 4867. Is it your opinion, that the Company buy under an open compe- tition at the lowest possible price ? — I am satisfied of it. I have been cut out of supplying many hundred pieces of 34 yards, by Id. or Qd, per piece of cloth. 4868. You 640 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 10 May 1830. 4868. You have stated that there has been an increase in the export on the — — part of the Company, of Spanish stripes and supers ; are you aware whether Mr. n: Ireland, there has been a decrease or an increase in their export of other species of woollen goods ? — I am not. 4869. Are you not aware that the quantity exported by the Company of long- ells, camlets, and worleys, has considerably decreased during that period ? — I am not. 4870. You reside in London ? — I do. 4871. Can you state what number of the fine woollen manufacturers in Gloucestershire make tender to the East-India Company for their contracts? — A great many of them do. Messrs. Stanton and Sons tender regularly ; Messrs Macleans, of Stanley mill, tender regularly. 4872. Do the parties that make these tenders to the East-India Company carry on an extensive business for other parties ?— They do, very extensive. I should think Messrs. Stantons have the best business in fine cloths in the county of Gloucester. 4S73. Can superfine or Spanisii striped cloths be dyed in Gloucestershire at as low a price as they can in London ? — Lower, I conceive. 4874. Do you know whether they can dye as cheap in Gloucestershire as they can in Yorkshire r — I think quite as cheap, because the Yorkshire people competed with us, and we have beaten them out of the market. The last con- tract they did not get a single yard of it ; and one of the principal Yorkshire contractors, whom I met this morning, told me that he should not compete at all the next contract. 4875. In answer to question 2966, Mr. Dixon stated that the London price for dyed Spanish striped cloths, purple, is 25. 4rf. per yard, and in York- shire ls.6(I. ; can you inform the Committee whether to your knowledge that statement is correct or no? — I cannot; hut 1 can state what the public dyers in Gloucestershire charge for dyeing Spanish striped cloths purple; their price is 445. for dyeing a piece of purple of 34 yards, less five per cent., which reduces it to 425. ; and it appears by Mr. Dixon's evidence that the Yorkshire price is .515. 4876. Will you look at the statement in Mr. Dixon's evidence in page 298 ; should you have any objection to make out a statement like that of your prices?— I have no objection to give the public dyers' prices in Gloucester- shire, but I could not give you my own, because it is blended with the state of the manufacture. I believe we are the only house that dye the whole of our colours, and finish the whole of our cloth ujjon our own premises ; for when I fiHind that the Company had altered their system, I went down and engaged a London dyer to reside there for the purpose of dyeing. 4877. Is every cloth you supply the Company with dyed : — It is. 4878. Upon what occasion was it you took that step ? — When the Company commenced buying all their cloths dyed and finished. 4879. Are SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OP COMMONS. G4.1 4879- Are you speaking of" cloth that is dyed in the wool or dyed in the piece ? — I am speaking of cloth that is dyed in the piece. 4880. Will you look at tlie statement given by Mr. Dixon, of the York- shire prices, and make any observations which occur to you respecting it ? — In the first place, I observe that the first colour mentioned here is higher by 9s. a piece than the Gloucestershire ])rice. For the black also ; we pay Gs. a. piece for dyeing blacks, and I see the Yorkshire price is lis. id. 4881. Are you aware of the fact that the woollen trade is to a certain degree leaving Gloucestershire, and going to Yorkshire ? — Some of the fine trade is, but a portion of it has come back again. Wiih respect to the scarlet, the Gloucestershire price is 375., and I find that the Yorkshire price is 485. Qd. 4882. Will you prepare a statement of the Gloucestershire prices of dyeing, for the information of the Committee, similar to that furnished by Mr.Dixon of the Yorkshire prices ? — I will. [The witness delivered in the following papers, which were read, as follows .] A STATEMENT of Prices for Dyeing 100 Pieces Spanish Stripe Cloths, of thirty- four yards each, in Gloucestershire, with the Proportions of each Colour shipped by the East-India Company, by the Gloucestershire Dyers. 10 May 1830. Mr. IV. Ireland. 28 £. .V. at 2 4 d. each .£ • ■ £ £. &\ 7 27 14 21 10 1 1 1 s. 12 10 15 16 3 10 d. 25 Black 6 15 8 14 Scarlet (Lac) . Brown Mazarine Blue Light Blue .... Ash • •• • 1 17 1 17 1 10 7 1 ■ • • •• 1 9 1 1 Green 1 10 1 Yellow 1 eces of Cloth .. Deduct 5 per c erage per piece 100 Pi 146 7 6 6 () ent. £1. discount for two 7s. S|rf months' bill ... Ai 139 Wm. Ireland. A Statement 64-2 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS 10 May 1830. A STATEMENT of Mr. A. Dixon's' Prices for Dyeing 100 Pieces of Spanish Stripe Cloths in Yorkshire, with the proportions of each colour shipped in every 100 Mr. IV. Ireland. Cloths of thirty-four yards long, by the East-India Company. Wm Astell, Esq. M.P. 28 25 Purple Black £. at -2 s. 11 11 8 5 2 2 11 17 14 d. each 4 2 6 8 8 4 £. 71 14 36 10 15 7 s. 8 3 2 4 7 18 11 17 14 d. 4 15 8 Scarlet (Lac) Brown 2 1 6 14 Mazarine Blue 1 4 7 1 Light Blue 1 8 Ash 4 1 Green , 1 Yellow ?ces of cloth, averaging 100 Pi £1 10 0| 157 16 2 Wm. Ireland. WILLIAM ASTELL, Esq. a Member of the Committee, delivered in the following Paper, which was read, as follows : CONTRAST of the Prices which Mr. Abraham Dixon, in his Evidence before the Committee of the House of Commons on East-India Affiiirs, (yth March 1830) p. 298, states to be paid to the London Dyers for the East-India Company's Assort- ment of Superfine Spanish Stripes ; and the last Prices paid by the Company for Dyeing to the London Dyers. Proportion Mr. Dixon. Dyeing and setting. East-India Company's Prices, in 100. 20tli Feb. 1828, being the last London Contract. 28 25 Purple, per whole cloth of thirty-four yards... Black £, s. d. 3 19 19- 3 11 6 2 11 6 1 9 1 9 19 not stated, not stated. £. s. d. 2 11 9 1 1 9 15 Lac Scarlet 2 4 7 14 Mazarine Blue 2 13 9 8 Dark Brown 2 5 9 7 Light Blue 2 3 9 1 Ash colour 1 5 9 I Saxon Green 2 9 1 Deep Yellow 1 13 9 oths. 100 cl SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 643 10 May 1830. JAMES COSMO MELVILL, Esq. again called in, and further examined. ^^ MebJill Fsr 4883. In your answer to question 4298, in p. 573, you say, " that com- bining ordinary usage, as respects interest being included in the invoice charges, with the parliamentary enactment, the upset price of the tea should include interest from the time of the first expenditure to the time when the sale proceeds of the teas are realized." This may be the practice and the mode of computation pursued by a private merchant ; but will you explain in what way it seems to you that the parliamentary enactment, to which you have referred, gives power to the Company to charge interest prior to the arrival of the tea in England? — The parliamentary enactment authorizes the Company to charge prime cost and the charges of importation. If interest were not included up to the period of arrival, I apprehend it would not be the prime cost and charges, but prime cost and charges minus interest, because the public in that case would have the free use of the Company's capital, which I never can believe was intended. 4884. In answer to question 4300, p. .573, you say, '• that the charge which the Company make of interest under the Commutation Act is for eighteen months; and you have ascertained that the average period that the tea in warehouse here is twenty months." Why does the Company resort to a mode of charging interest which, according to your statement, is less advantageous than if you charged interest for the period that the tea is in warehouse here; and the Committee put this question the more especially, because that which you state would be the most advantageous for the Company would, it is evi- dent, be in stricter conformity with the wording of the Commutation Act? — At the period that the Company determine to put up the tea to sale, they cannot possibly say how long all of it will remain in warehouse ; it therefore is necessary that they should proceed upon estimate, and my wish was to inform the Committee that I had ascertained that the estimate which the Company so make is accurate, and within bounds. 4885. When did you ascertain that ? — Previously to my last examination before this Committee. 4886. Did you ever ascertain, during any part of the prior years when the estimate was formed, that the number of months was longer than the esti- mate you have taken ? — The period of eighteen months, which the Company charge, is necessarily that which must always occur, as the Company's ships arrive only at one period of the year ; and the Act of Parliament requires that there should at least (for it is a minimum) be always a year's consumption on hand. It is clear, therefore, that the actual period must be eighteen months, or the /\ct would be violated. 4887- With reference to the present market price of silver, you say, in answer to question 4305, page 574, " that upon an average of all the years since 1814-15, there is only a fractional difference between the value of the 4 N rupee 644 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 10 May 1830. rupee at the market price and at the old standard." This may be ; but would ^ ,7T~T, p it not have been a more correct and a more strictly mercantile mode of'pro- J.L.i eii , 'sq. fjggjii^g^ jQ ij^yg considered what was the market price of silver each sepa- rate year, and not what it was upon the average of years ? — Possibly it migi)t have been ; tiiough I would explain that the standard of 5.y. Qd. still existed in 1817, and that so late as 1819, Mr. Tooke, in his evidence before a Com- mittee of the House of Commons, stated distinctly that 5s. Qd. was then the standard. 4888. You say in answer to question 4308, page 575, that the " old rate ofGs. Sd. per tale was recognized in I78I, in a paper appended to the Nintli Report of the Select Committee of the House of Commons on East-India Atfairs ;" the Committee wish to ask you whether that rate, having been so recognized in I78I, is the Company's justification for continuing, whatever may be the exchange at Canton upon England, so to rate the tale, that is, for continuing to rate the tale at 6s. 8d. ? — That valuation of 6s. 8d. per tale is not merely recognized in the report of I78I, but it is also recognized by the Select Committee on East-India Affairs in their Fourth Report in 181'^, in which they state " the common valuation of the tale of 6s. Sd. will be assumed in the sequel to this Report ;" and I would further state, that it is convenient and necessary in affairs so extensive and complicated as the Com- pany's are, that they should in all their accounts observe fixed rates of exchange ; the only question, I conceive, that can arise, is whether the rates which they so observe are fair as medium rates. If they are not so, or if tlirough a change in circumstances they have ceased to be so, then 1 think it must be admitted that the Company ought to alter them. When a revo- lution took place in the Indian exchanges, in consequence of the opening of the trade, the Court of Directors were anxious to alter their fixed rates of exchange. The Board of Commissioners for the Affairs of India were of a different opinion, and they would not allow the rates to be altered. Hence it became necessary for the Court of Directors to continue the old rate of 6s. Sd. in the China accounts, because the repayments by the Indian territory to the Company's commerce via China were made at the rates which the Board controlled. 4889. In answer to question 4313, page 576, you stated, " that the terri- tory obtainsgreat advantage by remitting the three millions sterling annually at the Board rates of exchange, 2s. Sd.Si per sicca rupee ;" but in answer to question 4307, page 574, you state " that the Company have never ac- (juiesced in the rates of exchange prescribed by the Board ;" will you recon- cile what seems to be a contradiction. In one answer you attribute great advantage to the Indian territory with respect to the Board's rates of ex- change, wiiereas in a j)recediMg answer you state the Company's hostility to those rates : and you observe, that had tiie Company sanctioned those rates in computing the cost of tea, the raising of the upset price of tea would be the consequence ■ — Tiie Court's objection to the rates of exchange prescribed by SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 6i5 by the IJoaid was one of account. The only difference by the adoption of 10 May 1830. the Court's phin, in lieu of that prescribed by the Board, would have been, ^ 7 that the territory, instead of getting an advantage in exchange, would have J-^^- Melmll,Esq. got the same amount advantage directly from the surplus commercial profits of the Company under the Act of the 53d ; the territory, therefore, would have been in the same position as it is now. It would only have been a change in account. 4890. In answer to question 4324, page 577, you state that "the tale has been placed in China, by consignment of British manufactures, at 75. -49, would it be in your power to let the Committee know in detail how you have come to this conclusion .? — If the Committee wish for such an account, that can of course be produced. 4891. Supposing the adventure made by the Company in manufactured goods from England, or from India, upon which there should be a loss of fifty per cent., should you feel the Act of Parliament was not strained by the charging the tale at a rate which would cover that loss ? — I have stated in my last examination, that such a loss would properly affect the value of the tale, as I regard all the consignments as remittances. 489'i. In answer to question 4338, page 580, you have stated " that the necessity of transferring from India to England about £4,000,000 sterling per annum, is a circumstance presenting a formidable obstacle to the growth of a profitable export trade from this country, either to India or to China ;" is it then your opinion, that neither China nor India will ever become extensive markets for British manufactures ? — I could not presume to say so at any period ; but more especially at a period like the present, when the commerce of nations is so much better understood than it used to be. What I wished to impress upon the Committee was, a sense of the difficulty to which any thing like a free trade to India or to China must be subject, from the obligation under which India is placed, of annually effecting a large remittance, irrespective of returns in the ordinary course of trade. 4893. Do you consider that the same difficulty would apply were a like remittance to be due from any one part of this empire to another? — I con- ceive a similar difficulty would apply to the case of trade between this country and another; that if this country had to make a large payment to another country, it would be the same kind of difficulty, differing only in degree. 4894. Would it apply to the different parts of the same empire ? — It does not seem to me that the cases are quite similar. 4895. Do you not think that in the event of a free trade between this country and China, and thus putting an end to the Company's monopoly, the active enterprize and eager competition of private individuals would by degrees lead to the introduction into China of our manufactures upon a far more extended scale than exists at present? — I apprehend that nobody 4 N 2 would 646 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 10 May 1830. would send goods to India or to China, but with a view to obtain returns for — — them. I think that the capacity of tliose countries to yield returns to J. C.Melcill,Esq. ^ profitable market is checked by the circumstance I have mentioned re-^pect- inu- remittances; but no doubt if the demands upon India could be reduced, or if the marketable returns from India could be increased, there would be greater facility tor the sale of British manufactures. 489G. You have referred to the demands upon India for remittance to England ; and although the Committee are now engaged in the China trade, this so blends India and China together, that the Committee wish to ask you, whether you do not think that tiie resources of India might be vastly enlarged if British capital and British skill were applied to India more extensively than is the case at present ? — I hardly feel myself competent to give an opinion upon a point of that kind. It certainly seems to be de- sirable, as far as possible, that the resources of India shoidd be developed to the utmost extent that they can be, consistent with the securities and interests of the native inhabitants, towards whom it appears to me we owe an obligation paramount to every other consideration mvolved in this dis- cussion. 4897. Referring to what you have said respecting the remittances from India, would not those remittances be effected with as much ease and advan- tage tiu-ough private trade as through the Company's trade ? — I would state as a matter of fact, that, upon a comparison of the Company's remittances since 1814 with the rates of exchange prevalent in India lor bills upon England, the Company have gained a penny per rupee by effecting their remittances through trade as compared with the rate of private bills. Were it practicable to effect so large a remittance through private trade, the Committee will see that the private trader must cover his expense in making that remittance, and that he could never afford to give the Indian territory the advantage that the Company's profits now give to it of ^s. 3d. -84 per sicca rupee. 4898. From the advantages derivable to the British public by the results of free trade, might not means be found of enabling the Company to pay in England the India territorial charges? — It will be for the wisdom of Parlia- ment to consider whether xhe possible advantage to this country of an open trade with China would compensate for tiie certain cost of making up to India the losses which it would sustain by the trade being thrown open. 4899. What would it lose? — It will lose that wliich it now gets from the Couipany's commerce in the shape of excliange, and in the shape of direct contribution. The real deficiency of the Indian territory to pay the terri- torial charges, since 1814, has, to the best of my recollection, amoimted to about fQ(),()00,000 sterling; but the debt which t!ie territory has been obliged to incur in consequence fidls short of that l)y about £7,000,000 sterling, which has been made up by the commerce. 4900. Do vou nit an to say that £7,000,000 have been gained in commeice by SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 647 by the East-India Company since 1814 ?— Upwards of £12,000,000, com- 10 May I83n. piiting the accounts at tlie mercantile interest of the Board's rates of ex- " : cliange ; which latter rates are observed in the Company's accounts of profit ' ' •^^"""''■'"'y- and loss; so that what the territory gained in the shape of exchange does not appear in tliat account as profit, but merges in the prime cost. 1901. Do you mean that the Company lias applied £12,000,000 of its com- mercial profits to territorial payments, besides the difference which is gained by the territory in the Board's exchange ? — No, including that. I mean, that if the Company had been completely separated from the Indian territory, and had acted only as merchants, under the provisions of the law applicable to them in that character, they would now have been £12,000,000 richer than they are, and the territory would have been so much poorer. 4902. Of that £12,000,000, can you state what portion is China trade? — I can only refer the Committee to the accounts they have upon tiieir table. 4903. From all that you have stated in the evidence you have given, is not the conclusion inevitable that the public of this country are taxed fir India ; the only question being whether the amount shall be obtained by the East- India Company through their monopoly, or by the Chancellor of the Ex- chequer directly ? — I really am not prepared to say that the public of this country are taxed for India j but I am prepared to say that India does essentially depend upon the profits of the China trade as administered by the Company. 4904. If the trade were thrown open, of course it w^ould still be com- petent to the Company to trade with China ; and if the possession of large capital and of all the other immense advantages arising from establishments already formed, and from influence in China obtained and fixed wlien there were no competitors; if all those and other advantages coidd not enable the Company to struggle successfully with private traders, is it not an obvious inference that the existing monopolv cannot fail to be injurious to the British empire? — I think that the Company's trading and indiviiluals trading in com- petition might have effecls mutually injurious without the country's being benefited. The Company might undoubtedly still trade, and those advan- tages which are enumerated in the question would afford them an opportunity, I conceive, of trading successfully in competition with private merchants ; but of course their profits, if they had competitors, would be much less than they are now, and that decrease of profit would pro tanto prevent their minis- tering to the aid of the Indian territory. 4905. Would not that decrease of profit be for the benefit of the consumei of the tea in England? — If lie got the tea cheaper. 4906. Would he not do so ? — I am not prepared to say that he would, as that depends upon considerations applicable to the trade in China as well as in England. 4907. In the statement which Mr. Rickards delivered in of the profits of tlie Company's tea trade, and in your correction of it, in page 589, the Committee 648 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 10 May 1830. Committee observe that the tale, in the computation of the prime cost of the ; tea, has been taken at 6s. 8d. ; does not that inchide the loss at the Board's J.( .Melvill,Esq. j.^jg p — Yes, it does. The difference between the Board's and the mercantile rates forms a further deduction to be made from Mr. Rickards's result, if the object be to ascertain the real out-turn of the tea trade in a commercial point of view. 4908. It has been stated to this Committee by Mr, Rickards, in ansAver to question S790fl, that the balance deficient of the Company has increased, since 1815, from £2,011,311 to £10,102,812; is that statement correct?— An examination of the accounts to which Mr. Rickards refers will show that they are not confined to the Company's commerce, but that they embrace the whole of their affairs, territorial and commercial. It has never been denied that the debt of India has been increased considerably since 1814. 4909. In your answer to question 4375, page 587, you stated that in Mr. Rickards's account of the profits of the tea trade he has included in his charges several items already included in the invoice amount ; will you specify what those charges are, and can you, if called upon, prove your statement by the production of an account? — Undoubtedly. The invoice cost of the tea comprises the freight of the outward consignments, and also what are called " the proportional cliarges" upon the homeward, with all the expenses incurred in China, and paid there. 4910. Will you explain the cause of the variation in the amount of freight and demurrage ? — Mr. Rickards has taken the whole of the commercial freight disbursed within the year ; whereas I have taken only that portion of the commercial freight which applies to the tea brought home, and included in Mr. Rickards's account. Mr. Rickards includes the freight ap- plicable to the India as well as the China trade, and also the outward as well as the homeward freight from China ; whereas the outward is comprised in the invoice cost. 4911. Will you furnish an account of the freight and other charges laid on the outward goods which ought not to be included, in the accoimt, but whicii Mr. Rickards, as you suppose, has included, for the same years to which Mr. Rickards's statement relates ? — Such an account can be prepared, if the Committee desire it. 4912. Will you also explain whv you credit the account with the sale to the amount of 27,975,041 lbs. while Mr. Rickards states it as only 25,492,001 lbs. ? — The amount of 27,975,041 lbs. is the quantity of tea stated on the other side as having been imported, deducting only the Company's expendi- ture in wastage. 491s. The Committee observe, that you have re-credited the same charges for interest ; will you explain why you have so done, for this item causes a material difference between the result of your statement and that of Mr. Rickards : — Mr. Rickards's account is professedly framed for the purpose SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 649 purpose of showing that there has not been a sufficient profit from the tea 10 May 1830. trade to pay the interest upon the bonds and the dividends to the pro- ,, , . „ j,^.^ prietors. If that had not been his object, I could have understood how, ' ' ' ' looking at the Company's accounts merely as the accounts of merchants, he would consider that tiie interest was a proper charge ; but as it is interest upon the Company's own capital, it is quite clear, that, if exhibited as a charge, it must, in some way or other, be re-credited, and go to make a part of the fund from which the Company's dividend is paid, because that dividend must comprise interest for the use of the capital. Whatever may be the best mode, upon strictly mercantile principles, of making out an account of profit and loss, 1 apprehend that in the conduct of the Company's trade they unite the characters of capitalists, of traders, and of underwriters ; and that in each of those characters they receive a gain of some sort. As capitalists, they receive the gain which every man receives from lending out his money at interest ; as traders, they receive the profits of trade, deducting interest ; and as underwriters, they receive the profits of their underwriting account. But when they are called upon to state their accounts of profit and loss, they are bound, I conceive, to state them in reference to the pro- visions of the Legislature, which appropriate to specific objects the whole of the Company's funds, from whatsoever source received. If therefore the Company stated interest as a charge, and did not re-credit it, their account would show a balance to that extent short of the fund which the law has declared to be appropriable. 49M'. Have the Company any capital vi'hich is available for the pur- poses of trade ? — Undoubtedly. I will read to the Committee a question put to the Accountant-general of the Company in the Committee of the House of Lords, and his answer. " Are you enabled to state the total amount of the commercial capital of the East-India Company, appropriated to territorial purposes under the Act of the 53d George III.? — The total commercial capital of the Company abroad and at home, on the 1st of May 1828 as to England, and the 1st of May 1827 as to India, was £21,731,869." 4915. How does that appear ? — The particulars are stated in the accounts of stock per computation, which are before this Committee. 4916. Does that include the fixed capital as well as the floating capital? — It does. 4917. Upon that capital, as so stated, what is the clear mercantile profit ? — I apprehend than can only be shewn by the aggregate statement of the Company's commercial gains, including not merely their profits in trade, but also the interest of their funded property, and of the debt due to thera by the Indian territory. 4918. Upon this capital of £21,731,869, what is the clear net profit derived from all the trade of the Company in its different blanches? — Such an account can be made out ; but I presume, if the Committee wish to have it 650 EVIDENCE OX EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 10 May 1830. it upon mercantile principles, we must take the mercantile rate of exchange, which we have never observed. J.C. MeMll,Esq. ^gjg jg ^j^g pj.^^j. ^^ ^j^g ^j.^jg ^jj.j^ jj^^jg^ ^^^ Ch'm-d that derived from the employment of their commercial capital of £21,731,869 ? — No ; be- cause all their commercial capital is not employed in that way. A part of their commercial capital is in the funds in the East-India annuities, which produces a considerable income; a further part is on loan to the territory. 4920. Did not the accountant mean, in the statement you have read, the capital which the Company possesses in their commercial character ? — Clearly. 4921. In the statement of profit and loss on the trade between this country and India, it appears that in the year 1828-9 there was a loss of £5c31,812 ; from what fund is that loss provided ? — That is tlip result at the Board's rates. The question refers to the India trade, the accounts of which iiave not come under my notice. 4922. By an account before the Committee it appears that the net loss upon the trade from India to China, in the year 1828-9, was £70,470, and upon the trade between India and Fngland £531,812; and further it appears that the net profit of the trade between England and China for the same year was £741,089, and the net profit to the North American colonies £13,796, making together £754,855 ; now in the calculation of this profit upon the trade from China, was allowance made for the loss in the other two branches of trade, India and China and India and England, or ought that loss to be deducted from the net profit of the trade with China ? — Allowance is made in the computation of the prime cost for so much of that loss as respects the outward trade from England and India to China, but it has nothing to do with the trade from England to India. 4923. Then, in order to show the general account of profit and loss, the Company ouglit to deduct profit and loss upon one trade from the profit on the other ? — Except that, upon mercantile principle?, there would be a large set-ofF upon that account by the difference between the Board's and t!ie leal rates of exchange. 4924. The Board's rates were settled in the year 1814? — They were. 4925. Are you not aware that for some years after that period the exchange was considerably higher than the rate at which the Board had settleil it? — It was ; but all computations of difference have been made upon the principle of debiting the commerce with the advantage in the years in which the Board's rates were lower, and the territory with that in whicli they were higher than the mercantile rates. 4926. Do you remember for what years the rate of exchange of that period was actually higher than the Board had fixed it at? — I think from 1814-15 up to 1819-20. In 1814-15 the rate was 2s. 7}^d. per sicca rupee. 4927. In SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 651 4927. In what year was it highest ? — In 1816-17, and in 1818-19. 10 May 1830. 4928. Since when is it that the rate of exchange has fallen below the , ^, Mehill Em Board's rate ? — 1820-21 was the first year. It was then 2s. 2rf. 77. ' ' ' 4929. During the time the rate of exchange was higher than the Board's rate, were the Company deriving an advantage from their commerce ? — They were ; but in the computation of the result of the exchange transactions be- tween the two branches, the commerce has been debited with the difierence of exchange for the years in which the mercantile rates exceeded those pre- scribed by the Board. 4930. You stated in page 580, in answer to question 4337, " bills have certainly been drawn to some extent ; the Company draw to small amount ; the supercargoes, whose salaries are payable in England, occasionally draw. There must be ship-bills ; and I have seen it stated in evidence before this Committee that the Americans have lately raised funds in China in that mode, though, if they continue to do so, instead of importing dollars, the exchange will soon be affected." Do you know when the practice of drawing those bills, on the part of the Americans, commenced ? — No, I do not. 4931. Are you not aware that it commenced about the year 1818? — I was not aware of that. 4932. Do you know whether it has been increasing from that period, or otherwise? — I stated when I was examined before, that I had no informa- tion upon that subject, but what I derived from the evidence given before this Committee. 4933. Can you state what, according to the rate of exchange in the year 1828, was the price of the dollar at Canton at that period? — The Company were drawn upon in the year 1818, at 5s. a dollar. 4934. Can you state what it was in 1826? — In 1826 the Company were drawn upon partly at 45. Qd , and partly at 45. Sd. 4935. In 1828?— In 1828, partly at 4*. 9,d., and partly at 45. \\d. 4936. In case it shall appear that the number of bills drawn by Americans have considerably increased in the latter period, will it not follow that it has not had the effect which is contemplated in your answer to that question ? — It would be necessary, previously to coming to such conclusion, to know the state of the American trade, to see what quantity of dollars they have imported during that same period. 4937. You have stated that it was necessary, acting up to the tenor of the Commutation Act, that the Company should always keep a stock of lea on hand to the amount of one year's consumption ; are you not aware that the obligation therein contained is of keeping such a stock of tea as, including the quantity ordered but not received, shall amount to one year's consumption ? — I stated upon a former occasion that the Company have 4 O always J.C. Melvill, Esq. 652 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 10 May 1830. always construed that clause to mean, that they should have at all times at least a year's consumption in warehouse. 4938. Will you have the goodness to read the clause? — "That the said United Company shall from time to time send orders for tlie purchase of such quantities of tea, and provide sufficient ships to import tlie same, as, being added to the stock in their warehouses, and to the quantities ordered and not arrived, shall amount to a sufficient supply for the keeping a stock at least equal to one year's consumption, according to the sales of the last preceding year, always beforehand." 4939. Does not that stock include the quantity in the warehouse, as well as the quantity that has been ordered and not arrived ? — In the Company's construction of that clause it includes only the quantity in warehouse. 4940. You have stated in your answer to question 4368 in what manner the Company regulate the quantity of tea which they put up at each sale, and you stated, as a proof that the market is abundantly supplied by the Com- pany, that large quantities have been rejected at every sale? — Lately. 4941. If the Company put up their teas at the real cost to them, and they put up such a quantity as to always have a portion rejected at that upset price, would it not necessarily follow from such a course that they never could make any profit upon their tea at all ? — If the quantity rejected went sucli an extent ; but when I spoke of considerable quantities,! alluded to the rejection of a million of pounds weight at one particular sale. The ob- ject of the Company has been that of leading, by an abundant provision, to an increased consumption, rather than of supplying an increased demand after it should have been ascertained to exist; and 1 merely mentioned the fact of tea having been rejected, as tending to show that the Company, far from starving trade, abundantly supplied the market. 4942. If they are regulated, as to the quantity put up for sale, by the cir- cumstance of putting up until a portion is rejected by the buyers, does not that necessarily lead to the consequence that the portion that is sold must be sold at a price not exceeding the upset price ; because if any portion is rejected by the buyers at the upset price, is not that a proof that any buyer might have provided himself at the upset price, and therefore, as a conse- quence, that no person can have given more than the upset price ? — There can be no doubt that latterly it has occasionally occurred that the Company have not received the upset price for rejected teas ; they have been put up at the following sale at no price, and they have not always received the upset price for them. 4943. Did you not mean the Committee to infer that that was the ordinary practice of the Company in regulating their supply i'or the demand? — No; I stated that the principle to which they look in determining what quantity to offer for sale is the amount of deliveries and the quantities sold at the previ- ous sale. 4944. Is. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. G53 4944. Is the Committee to understand that the fact yoii have stated of 10 May 183f). large quantities having been rejected is merely an accidental fact, and that ~ — T it is not to be taken into consideration with a vievi' to judge of the circum- "' ^''^^''^^^ ^^'f stances which have regulated the Company in the quantity of tea they put up for sale ? — Certainly ; the Company, in the quantity put up for sale, look at actual deliveries and actual sales. 4945. But they do not regulate the quantity, so as to put up a portion of each quality that shall be actually rejected by the buyers ? — Clearly not. 4946. Would not such a course be inconsistent with the possibility of making any profit- — When the Company declare tea for sale, they of course expect and hope that they shall sell all that they declare. 4947. That being the case, and the Company looking to making a given profit upon their tea, is not that profit entirely regulated by the quantity that is put up ? — I apprehend the Company never regulate or limit the quantity of tea with a view to making any certain amount of profit ; without adverting to the question of amount of profit, they look only to the demand for the tea. 4948. Is not the profit that they look to making entirely dependent upon the quantity they may put up for sale ? — The quantity they put up for sale must affect the rate of profit. 4949. What rate of profit do the Company look to in determining the quantity of pounds weight of tea that they put up for sale r — I must repeat, that the Company never take into view the question of profit when they declare the amount to be sold. 4950. Do not they always determine to take it in if it was not sold at a certain price ? — They are authorized by law to put it up at a certain price ; and having ascertained that it will not fetch that, it is put up without price at another sale, and sold at what it will fetch. 4951. Supposing any given quantity of tea to be imported, say 10,000,000 of pounds, which would command a given price ; are you not aware, that if you put up 9,000,000 of pounds, you would create that sort of scarcity which would give you an increased price ; and if you were to put up 11,000,000 of pounds, it would bring you either to your prime cost or to a loss ; and therefore, the price which the Company is to obtain must depend entirely upon the proportion of the quantity put up to the demand and the consumption ? — Undoubtedly. 495'-2. That being the case, do you suppose that the Company, in regu- lating the quantity to be put up for sale, do not do it with reference to some given profit, which they have made up their minds to be reasonable for them to receive ? — I am sure that they do not. 4953. Do you suppose that the upset price has anything to do with the price actually obtained at the sale ? — I confess I think it has ; but that is a question upon which there is a considerable difference of opinion. When 4 O 2 there 654 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 10 May 1830. there has been great competition, and the sale price has considerably ex- — ~ ceeded the upset price, I know that some persons, who are well informed as J.C.Melvtll,Lsq. ^^ ^^^^ sales, think the upset price has nothing to do with the sale price. 4954. For instance, a pound of tea that may sell for 3s., whether you start the first price at 6d. or at ^5. 6d. ; can it make any difference in the result of the sale? — Certainly not. 4955. Therefore does the price paid for tea depend, in your opinion, upon the quantity put up, and not upon the upset price? — My own opinion is, that they both affect it ; that taking the whole sale into view, the upset price must affect the sale price. 4956. In what proportion does the quantity put up at one sale, with re- ference to the previous deliveries, exceed the quantity sold at the previous sales? — lam not aware of the precise proportion, but it is what would be called a liberal supply in reference to the past sale. 4957. Are you not bound by Act of Parliament to put up at least as much as the previous year's consumption amounts to? — I am not aware of any law of that kind. 4958. Is there any tea ever put up without a fixed price, except that which has been previously rejected ? — I am not exactly prepared to answer that question. 4959. In your correction of Mr. Rickards's statement, it appears that he takes the salaries and emoluments at £95,653, the expenses in China at £54,735, amountinf,' together to £150,388; you take them at £82,140; what is the reason of that diflference ? — That difference is the proportion of the expense which is incurred and paid in China, and which comes into the in- voice cost of the teas. The invoice amount of the teas includes all the charges paid in China, therefore the effect of Mr. Rickards's entry is to state that charge twice. 49fiO. You stated that the Company always take into consideration the quantity of tea which the public seemed to require ; must not the quantity which the public take off depend upon the price at which it is sold ? — Yes ; but the price at which it is sold depends upon the public competition for it at that sale. 49GI. The Company being the sole sellers of tea, and having the expe- rience of some years, are of course easily able to regulate themselves by the price and quantity that has been previously obtained? — I should think that it is the Company's supply that has affected the price. I find that as the Company have increased their supply, the price has materially fallen, and I think that is apparent from the statements upon the Committee's table. 49O2. Having the power of limiting the quantity to be sold, have they not also the power of commanding the upset price? — If they have the power of limiting the quantity, it is a power which they have never thought of exercising. 4963. In SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 655 4963, In answer to question 4859, you take the whole quantity of tea sold 10 May 1830. in 1829 to be twenty-seven millions and a half of pounds, and you state that . ,77".. ;;. the price of the contract congou in 1829 was 20 H Pi O cn >k nj .M a . ^ Oi .... ^ VO >o >o z Han per d pet Spind 00 oCD lO Tj. Ci o c Bj < T3 o Price of otton an Waste per lb. 1812 and 1830. •9 60 CO CO O o O O o o CO 00 o o H o H O b -«» -tc* 1^ "a ■* 00 O ■- o o r^ Tj- Q ^^ <-H f—i «c CO lO 00 - CD O " Ci ts Z , 1=2 1812 and 1830 t3 r^ o CO CO CO Tj- 03 e» lO CO CO v:) « o !-• « Ci ■* oo -If Hm wH' -+»■ o -»: c< O O "t o t^ CO Ci OT - 00 i-H 69 i-i r- CT CO T)- to TJ. CO « jO i- Ci u a; 2J •w o to Tj. Ci o ■* o o S ^H to CT CO 'I- >o CO 02 O >-0 Ci CO ^« -dw r^*?? r-1« d ■e 1^ o t^ C< 00 rt CO CO ® La cH 69 o - W Ci 01 Ti- " •* If r - • , •^ Ci <•, •S s 1 it,' ^ 1-1 O" Z W •y' o o Ci O CO CO 00 o O 2 Co I-I I-» Ci Ci CO CO CO - H r- CO H O QJ -W MH- ;2 © -^ l> o f-» Tj- 00 o 00 fJi »— t to o o O " r^ »H CO CO 13 o z Pric otton a per CO '^ o o Ci •* CO o Ti- O U ^H «o -> OJ Ci Ci Ci Ci CO Tj. o «5 vo CO >, CO r^ lO Op CO CO C3 . -3 dJ GO e» ci Ci -1 r^ F- o o V a • 5 oj (N >o lO lO 5 0- 1— t CO 1-4 r^ 1.0 Tj. Ci r* 'P e< -■ -* rH -H •-< o o 1 d 6 d d d d 6 6 ■* to 00 o Ci lO o ^ " ».« M Ci Ci to 13 3 p. CJ Oi B > o -a a. o E a, S c c 0) a B C S 3 >> cr c Q) o CJ <2 c S _o (U a rs u (U o Q. — * o ■« rs o c C3 a a en f= "2 c ts CS « u i 2 . ." o tOXl C C3 M «=- c § o W qs ^ c ■B o C o 3 o .o 0! 4^ ^ o o S 2 o 60 'k^ CJ c » a S lU O 3 -fi ■S "o o cu " CO 00 2-c ^H • a *; c o 13 -3 •- a "S-a c rr ' T3 ^.2 ^ o CD £ «.£ o c c QJ A H o.--^ CJ V ^ = <3 * SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 66l No. 3. — Comparative Prices of Eiijjlish and Indian Cotton- Yarns, in the Years 1812 11 May 1830. and IH'M, reckoned per mile. Mr. J. Kennedy, and No. 40... 60.., 80.., 100... 120... 150... 200... 250... English Prices. 1812. d. u If u 1 4 2f 3f London, 6th May 1830. 1830. I 1.1 \i 1 i| 2 I Indian Prices. 1812 & 1830. d. •-'^ 2| 3 H 5i 8 Mr.H.H.Birley. Note. — Two hanks of yarn are one mile nearly. John Kennedy. 4998. Have you made any difference in the price of labour in India between the year 1812 and 1830? — No. 4999. Do you understand that there has been any difference ? — Not that I ever heard of. 5000. How do you ascertain the cost of spinning in India? — We had the same apparatus to spin with in England, previous to the last seventy or eighty years, that they had in India ; and 1 understand that in India they have the same machine still. 5001. Does this computation proceed upon any knowledge you have yourself upon the subject? — (Mr. Birlei/.) It was assumed in 1812, that an individual spinning with the hand woukl produce as much with a spindle as one of our spindles moved by machinery ; and those who have observed the spinning of flax and wool and worsted, by hand, feel quite certain that it is making an ample allowance. The object of Mr. Lee in preparing that state- ment has been rather to understate than to overstate. 5002. Are you yourself acquainted with the Indian machinery ? — (Mr. Keimedy.') I have seen a great variety of models of Indian machinery for the purpose of preparing and spinning cotton in India. 5003. Do you make any difference in the price of the raw material in India between 1812 and 1830?— No. 5004. Have you any reason to believe that the prices are the same now 4 P 2 as 662 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 11 May 1830. as they were then? — The last price-current seems to correspond within a ,, ~~~ fraction, or nearly so, with what it was then. Mr. J. Kennedy, and 5005. Has there ever been any improvement of the cotton exported from Mr.H.H.Birley. India to England since the year 1812 ? — I think not ; the Surats have been better got up in some instances. 5006. From the calculations tliat were drawn up in 1812, you assumed the great probabihty of an extension of trade between India and England ? — Certainly ; I speak more particularly of yarn. 5007. Has that expectation been realized by the subsequent event r — It has. In 1812 there were nothing more than samples sent out, at that period amounting to a (evv hundred pounds weight ; and the last returns I have seen are between 4,000,000 and 5,000,000 of pounds. 5008. Have you reason to believe tliat the result which has taken place with reference to India migiit equally apply to other parts of the East, if the trade were thrown open ? — Whenever yarn is wanted I conceive that may take place. 5009. Have you reason to believe that such yarn would be in request in the China market? — I am not at all acquainted with the China market. — (A/r. Bhiey.) There is no doubt of the fact. 5010. And perhaps also through the Eastern Archipelago ? — Yes. 5011. Upon what grounds do you form that opinion ? — From the circum- stance of orders having been given and increased. 5012. Do you mean from China? — Yes; in the first instance a consi- derable error was committed as to the fineness of the yarn tliat was sent out ; but there is no doubt that both from America and this countrv yarn has been sent to Chimi. The East-India Company, I believe, gave very large orders last year for China for yarn ; at least it was so understood in Manchester. 5013. Do you know any thing, of your own knowledge, of any American orders for cotton-yarn for the China market? — By correspondence we do. The house of which I am a member hid information from an American merchant that it was an article which might be sent out circuitonsly, and be extensively used in China. 5014. Have any long-cloths of British manufacture been exported to India? — A great many cotton cloths, of about the quality which we under- stand to be long-cloths, have been so sent out. 5015. Formerly were they not invariably imported from India for con- sumption here? — They were. 501G. For how long has that trade been going on? — Certainly from the time of the opening of the trade, if not previously. 5017. lias it been progressively going on? — Certainly it has been going on SELECT COMMITTEE of thk HOUSE OF COMMONS. G63 on increasing : but, for my own part, I contemplate rather supplying the 11 May 1830. Indian market with yarn than with niaiiuractured goods in future. ^ ..,, ,, 7 ,- Ti- Mr.J.Kenmdt/, 5018. Do you consider the long-cloths, sent out irom this country to India, ^nd to be equal, in point of substance, solitiity, and duration, with the long-cloths Mr. H. H.Birley. of that country ? — I should rather apprehend not. Generally speaking, wherever we e.\|)ort cotton cloths, we have found it necessary to make a cheap article, to meet the wants and the ability of the purchasers. 5019. Do not you invariably obtain the preference upon the coast of Africa through Gibraltar ? — Great quantities go through Gibraltar. 5020. Do not the Manchester long-cloths now supersede the Indian long- cloths in the Gibraltar market ? — They are sold to a great extent. I have no establishment at Gibraltar, and therefore I cannot answer decidedly. 5021. What difficulty has the English manufacturer, according to the present state of the law, in sending his goods to any part of India? — I am not aware of any difficulty, excepting to China. 5022. Could not you find freight to send it to China? — Not directly. 50T6. So that the only extension that could be given to the trade by law is confined, in your opinion, to the opening of the China trade ? — Yes. 5024. Can you suggest to the Committee any other alteration of the law, by which the exportation of goods to other parts of the Indian seas could be improved ? — I am not aware of any impediment. 5025. Are there any facilities that might be given, which do not now exist, for the introduction of British manufactures into the consumption of India? — 1 know no facilities which could be afforded, unless it be by atten- tion being bestowed upon the culture of certain productions of India, and by the opening of the China trade, so that we could get our returns more easily. 5026. Would it not afford you increased facility if you had agents, for instance, in the towns of British India ? — There are houses of agency in certain parts of India. Increased facilities certainly might be expected to lead to more extensive demand. 5027. Is a ship of British register allowed to navigate from one port of India to the other? — I apprehend not. 5028. Would that be a facility ? — Certainly, trading voyages would be very advantageous. 5029. Are there some facilities that might be given that do not now exist ? — Certainly. 5030. Are you aware that some cotton imported from New South Wales has lately been sold at Liverpool ? — I have heard so ; 1 have seen it reported. 5031. Do you know the price at which it was sold ? — I do not. I remem- ber it was mentioned in our broker's letter. 5032. Was 664 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 11 May 1830. 5032. vv^as it the growth of New South Wales ?— It was. Mr. J. Kennedy, 5033. Are you not of opinion that if returns could be got from the East, and the trade carried on between Great Britain and the East generally might be Mr.H.H.Birley. very largely increased ? — Undoubtedly. 5034. Do you not conceive that the power of importing tea into this country on the part of the free-trader would tend greatly to increase that trade ? — Certainly. 5035. Must not you also have the demand as well as the returns? — I have no doubt of the demand. 5036. Do not you know that English manufactures, at the present instant, in India, are now selling below the prime cost ? — There is not a market in the world which we do not sometimes overstock ; but I always expect good to result from that. 5037. From the opening of the trade, has not that been almost constantly the case in India? — By no means ; we had increasing orders for precisely the same qualities of goods for several years. 5038. Are not the cottons now furnished much cheaper at Manchester than they were at the time of the opening of the trade ? — It is upon that that I ground the expectation of an increase in the demand. 5039. Do not you know that they are admitted at a very low duty in India, whereas the cottons of India are subject to a high duty here ? — Certainly; I think it is a pity that those duties remain. That opinion was expressed about the time of the discussion as to the last renewal of the charter by a deputation from Manchester to the then Chancellor of the Exchequer. 5040. Do you know whether any cotton goods are sent to India with a view of being forwarded to China from India ? — I cannot state that of my own knowledge. 5041. Are you acquainted with any imitations having been made of the Chinese patterns ? — 1 have understood that orders are now in the course of execution for China ; but whether it is by license from the Company, or how they are intended to go, I am not prepared to state. JAMES COSMO MELVILL, Esq. again called in, and examined. J.C.Melvill,Esq. 504'2. Are not the exchanges in China affected by the price of silver in England ? — I apprehend it must have a proportionate effect. 5043. Taking all the circumstances you have stated into consideration, is not the rate by which the upset price of the teas is calculated liigiier than that at which for the year it could have been realized? — It would be im- f)Ossible for me to answer that question accurately, because I do not know what effect might have been produced upon the rates of exchange in China if J.C.\[elrill.Kt> that all the Company's consignments and remittances to Ciiina are made entirely with a view to and tlo in fact, terminate in, supplying the treasury at Canton with funds for a provision of tea ; are you aware that the principal object of i'ritish mer- chants, in the opening of the trade with India in 1S14 down to 1818 inclusive, was to furnisii funds to purchase Indian produce for siiipment to Europe, in the same manner that it is now the object of the East-India Company to furnish fiuuis in China for their investments of tea ; and are you further aware that since 1818 liown to the piesent time, the nature of that trade to India has entirely chani^ed, in consequence of the extensive demand for British manufacture in India, the purchase of Indian produce, in the place of being, as formerly, an object desirable as profitable invest- ment, being now become a means of renuttance? — The Company have the most convincing evidence of tiie increasing difficulty of finding the necessary means SELECT COMMITTEE of thk HOUSE OF COMMONS. 671 means of remittance from India, caused in great measure by the demand of 11 May 1830. returns for exports to that country. 5090. Was it not from 181 1 to 1818, and at anterior periods, a difficulty J-^-^^^"'^'^^^"/- of an opposite description ; namely, a difficulty of creating funds in India to pay for the articles sent out? — Not from 1814 to 1818, so far as the Company were concerned. Their difficulty has been in obtaining re- mittances for the funds belonging to them in India. 5091. The question refers to private merchants? — I am not acquainted witli the private trade ; I know that bullion used to go to India in much greater quantity than it does now. 5092. Do not you know tliat now the difficulty is to find the means of remittance from India, whereas before tiie opening of the trade, and for the first few years after that opening, with reference to the private merchant, the difficulty was to find the means of creating a fund in India for the pay- ment of goods to be l)rought from that country to this.? — I know that the difficulty now is the finding means of remittance from India; but I do not feel myself competent to say what difficulty of an opposite kind may have been experienced by private merchants. 5093. Do you not then think that, under those circumstances, if the monopoly of the Company's trade to China were discontinued, the importa- tion of tea into this country would soon assume the same character as the importations of cotton, foreign coffee, saltpetre, and other Indian products in the India trade? — I think there is a great difference between the trade with India and the trade witii China. Whatever success may have attended the endeavour to export British manufactures to India, it by no means follows that the same result would attend a free trade to China, because the introduction, more extensively than at present, of such articles, would depend upon local regulations. We have controlled such regulations in India, and have thereby interfered with the native manufactures; but we could not exercise any such control in China. 5094. In point of fact, have not the Americans already, in their trade to China, in a great degree produced such a state of things; namely, a large importation of produce of other countries, and a consequent low price of tea.? — I have heard that latterly the Americans have resorted to the practice of exporting British manufactures and produce to China ; but! have only learned that fact from the evidence given before tliis Committee. It had been my impression that the principal exports of the Americans to China were dollars ; and I still think that, upon the whole, dollars have to them proved the most profitable mode of paying for their teas. 5095. Supposing the Chinese to manifest the same disposition to consume British manufactures, either from their cheapness or their superior quality, or from any other motive, which the natives of India have manifested since the opening of the trade to India, would not the same result probably arise in the interchange of commodities between the two countries; namely, a very 672 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 11 May 1830. very great increase of the export trade of tliis country, and a greater — - demand in Cliina for the produce of that country, attended with the lower J. C. Melvill,Esq. p,.|(.g probably of the article ? — It might have such an effect; but to the extent that it had, India would suffer by an abridgment of the means of remittance of that portion of the Indian revenues which is expended in this country. 5096. Assuming that the Chinese will consume our manufactures, do you think that if they do consume them they would not find a means of remit- tance in the increased supply of tea and other articles from China ? — They must certainly give something in return for whatever they took from us ; but that something would not augment the channel of remittance from India ; besides which, how would the difference of exchange be made up to the Indian community which they now derive from the profits of the Company's trade. 5097. Supposing the same supply of opium and other commodities to go from India to China, or supposing that supply to be increased, would there not be the same funds created as means of remittance ? — There might be the same funds created as means of remittance, but they would not be appli- cable to the same object. The funds that are now created as a means of re- mittance to the Company form the source from which they derive that profit from which the inhabitants of India now get a benefit, which they could not obtain in any other mode, unless directly from the people of England. 5098. Do you mean to state, that if 10,000,000 of dollars were raised in China by a quantity of opium sent from India to China, those 10,000,000 would not create a credit, out of which a remittance to that amount might be made to this country, whether by private trade or by the Company? — There can be no doubt of it ; and the Company already avail themselves pf that credit for the purchase of two-thirds of their teas. 5099. You stated in your former evidence, that the average period that the Company's tea remains in their warehouses is twenty months, and that the charge of interest which the Company makes under the Commutation Act is for eighteen months, and you further stated your opinion that were the tea to remain in warehouse for a shorter period than eighteen months the provision of the Commutation Act, in sec. 5, would not be complied with : are you not of opinion, that the keeping of five or six months' stock of tea in the Company's warehouses, added to the quantities ordered and not arrived, as stated in the statute, would have been a suflicieut compliance with the intention of the Legislature ; anil would not the keeping of such stock have enabled the Company to supply the public with a cheaper and fresher supply of tea? — I am clearly of opinion, thatiftlie Company had so reduced their supply, the Act would have been infringed. 1 have read the Act deliberately since yesterday, and considered it well ; and it occurs to me, that to suppose that the Legislature meant that the Company should consider as on hand the quantity of tea ordered but not in warehouse, is to assume that the Company might have their warehouses completely empty. I think the Legisiatuie SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE Ol" COMMONS. G73 Legislature, looking at the uncertainty ;ind liability to interruption which, H May 1830. especially in early years, was felt to attach to the China trade, must have intended to guard against the contingency of" a failure of supply. And I would ' evi , .sq. respectfully submit to this Committee, whether supposing that, at the present moment, instead of the subject of discussion now before them, they were inquiring into an allegation that the Company had infringed the law, the China trade being interrupted, and no tea being in the warehouse, the majority of men would hesitate to pronounce an opinion, that, under the Act in ques- tion, the Company were bound to what they have done. 5100. Would not the intention of the Legislature, which was, that there should always be twelve months' beforehand, have been complied with, by having always six months' supply in hand over and above the supply coming in ? — I think it would not. The Act provides a minimum, and states the object to be that of having a stock always beforehand. .)101. Does it not frequently happen, in consequence of the present sys- tem, that the tea is sometimes two or three years in England before it is sold ? — I think not. It is not within my department ; but from what I have heard, I should suppose it has very rarely happened that tea has been so long as two years in warehouse. There may be cases in which tea, rejected at a sale, and then put up without price at the following sale, has been kept more than two years. The interest is never charged beyond the eighteen months. 5102. In point of fact, at the last March sale, were there not teas put up and sold that were imported in March, April and May 1827 ? — I am not aware of the fact, 5103. Could you ascertain that ? — Certainly. 5104. When you spoke of teas being rejected, you did not mean rejected for their quality, but reiected because the quantity is superabundant ? — They are offered for sale at the upset price, and nobody bids for them ; but I cannot possibly say why individuals do not bid, 5105. Then they are put up again and sold without reserve? — Yes; and there have been instances in which teas rejected at one sale, wiien put up at the upset price, have been put up at the succeeding sale at no price, and have fetched more than the price at which they were first put up. 5106. Can you state to the Committee what reduction in the upset prices of bohea and Congo has been made by the Company in the forty years which have elapsed from the year 1784, when the upset price was fixed by the Com- mutation Act for the four first sales afterwards? — I cannot. I have seen such a document, but I have not got it by me ; it can be furnished to the Con)mittee for every year. 5107. Has the reduction in the upset price of tea since the year 1814 kept pace with the general reduction in the price of other articles of importation from foreign countries ? — My impression is, that there has been a less re- duction 674 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 11 May 1830. duction in the price of tea than on that of other articles, but that there has " also been a less rise j I think there have been less violent fluctuations in the J. C. MelviU,Esq. p^.-^^ ^^- ^^^ ^^^^^ -^^ ^1^^^. ^f o^hei- commodities. 5108. In point of fact, whatever have been the circumstances and changes in the value of money, or otherwise, that have so greatly lov/ered the price of all articles of foreign import, the price of tea has not lowered in the same proportion ? — Perhaps not ; but I think it would have, if the price had also risen in the same proportion. 5109. As far as the price was affected by the exchange and the value of money, must it not have risen in_the same proportion, because the upset price was always determined by the prime cost at Canton ? — What I mean to say is, that so far as I am informed, the rise and fall in the prices of tea were not so considerable as in those of other articles. 5110. You have also stated that the profit was much larger at the period in question ? — It was. 5111. Ought not then the upset price to have fallen still more in conse- quence of the profit being so much reduced as it has since been ? — Tlie upset price is not regulated by the profit. 5112. Does not the upset price now include the lower rate of exchange, and the import charges ? — It does ; the upset price has doubtless been aflfected and reduced by the reduction in the prices at which the Company provide their outward consignments to China, and by the reduction in the rates of exchange at which their bills have been negociated. 5113. In point of fact, do you think that any other article of merchandize in general trade can be pointed out in which the reduction has been so in- considerable as in tea since the year 1814? — I really am not sufficiently con- versant with merchandize in general to be able to speak to that. 5114. You have stated that the sending of merchandize from India to China was an encouragement to the trade in one important article of Indian produce, namely, cotton ; can you state what has been the loss to the Company on the average of ten years, ending 1827-8, upon this branch of their trade? — The profit and loss accounts will probably show that, though they include sandal- wood as well as cotton. 5115. Admitting that that trade is carried on at an average annual loss to the Company, do not you consider that the persevering in a trade which is attended by a yearly loss is more likely, by deranging tlie necessary relation between supply and demand, to prove a discouragement than an encourage- ment to the trade in any article of merchandize ? — As a general principle, that may be correct. 5116. Do you think it is so in this particular case ? — In that particular case the result is arrived at after adding the Company's freight. 5117. Are you not of opinion that in whatever degree there might exist an effective J.C.Melvill, Esq. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 675 effective demand for cottons in the Chinese market, that demand would be H May 1830. naturally supplied by the merchants of India? — I have no doubt of that. 5118. Then is it desirable that the Company should waste their funds in such a trade? — They do not waste their funds, because the freight upon the ships must be incurred at any rate ; and deducting that freight, which, but for being put upon the cotton, would come upon the tea, the Company, by their cotton transactions, realize the tale at a lower rate than they would by bills ; and therefore, so far as the upset price of tea is concerned, it is clear that the Company's consignments of cotton are advantageous. 5119. Although atone period they did realize a lower rate than by bills, would they do so now? — The last two or three years they would not; but upon the average of years they would. 5120. Supposing the same trade, to the same extent, to have been carried on by private individuals, would not imports be created in Canton to the same amount? — Yes; but the tale would be more highly valued, because the sending of cotton is one mode of reducing the expense of the freight upon the tea. 51'21. Then, supposing the freights of the Company to be much higher than the freights of individuals, would not that affect it? — That would affect it, undoubtedly ; but the Company's freights depend upon the law which re- gulates their shipping. 5122. You stated, in answer to questions 4326 and 4327, that the most dis- advantageous mode which the Company could adopt of providing funds for the purchase of teas was by sending British manufactures to China ; and further, that the Company have always been desirous, from policy, of export- ing the produce and manufactures of this country to places to which they have an exclusive privilege of trading, and that they have felt themselves under something like a moral obligation to do so. Are you aware that, during the last twelve years, the export of British manufactures by the Ame- ricans to China has greatly increased, whereas since the commencement of the present charter the export of the East-India Company has diminished ? — I have not by me the particulars of the American trade. I see, by the state- ments that have been submitted to this Committee, there has been an increase in their exports of British manufactures, the amount of which, however, falls far short of the quantity exported by the Company. 5123. Has not the quantity exported by the Company been diminished ? — I rather think that there has been no material decrease in the quantity ; the value is of course less. 5124. Can you suppose that when the Americans have been increasing their exports, they could be actuated by any other consideration than a view to their own interest ? — 1 should think that no merchant would export goods that he did not expect to make a profit upon ; but as to any comparison of the Company's exports with those of the Americans, it would be desirable 4 R to 676 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 11 May 1830. to ascertain the result of the Company's consignments in the years 1828-9 ' and 1829 30. Information has been received, from which it may be inferred J.C .MelviU, Esq. ^j^^j. j|^g Company's consignments of those two seasons will prove one of the best modes of remittance that the Company have adopted ; and it is not un- likely that some of the favourable statements which the Committee have re- ceived of the American exports may have reference to a later period than tiiose yet made up of the Company's. 5125. In point of fact, you have stated that hitherto it has been the worst? — It has hitherto, upon an average of the years since 1814-15. 5126. Supposing it should turn out that tlie best mode which the Company can now resort to of creating funds in China is the export of British manu- factures, whilst that export is also increasing through the channel of American commerce, would it not lead to the inference that the Chinese are become more disposed to consume the manufactures of this country, and thereby to afford a greater facility to the extension of their trade? — The improvement has probably arisen from the low rate at which the goods have been purchased here. There can be no doubt, if the fact should be established that a profit- able trade is carried on with China in British manufactiu-es to a larger extent than used to be, and that such should continue to be the case, that that will show an increasing demand for them. 5127- Will not the benefit of that fact have been principally supplied by the enterprize of the American private trade ? — I cannot say that I think the American trade has reference particularly to late periods. There has been a great depression of the prices of manufactured articles in this country, and I believe the profit upon them will in consequence be larger this year, and that it has been large in the last year ; but that will be the case with the Company's consignments, as well as with those of the Americans. 5128. If there should be a favourable result, should you attribute it to the fall of prices of British manufactures ? — I should think principally. I would explain, upon the subject of British manufactures, that the chief loss which the Company would appear to have sustained has been in articles made of British wool, and that the obligation under which the Company have felt themselves has been to protect that trade in particular. In articles made in England of foreign wool, the remittances have upon the whole been rather profitable than otherwise. 5129. You stated, in answer to question 4330, that the insurance is charged by the Company at the rate of three per cent. It has been given in evi- dence to the Committee, that the ordinary rate of insurance for sea-risk on the voyage to or from India is from two to two and a half; and it is further stated, that the risk in the Company's ships is smaller than in any other class of vessels ; docs not the enhanced rate charged by the Company add to the upset price of the teas ? — I am satisfied that if the Committee will be pleased to call for further information upon that subject, they will find that that which has been given in evidence is incorrect. 1 had an opportunity of conversing SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. G77 conversing with one of the most experienced members of Lloyd's, who has H ^^y '^^O. been there more than forty years, and who states that he is prepared to give . ,TT^,, .. it in evidence to this Committee that the ordinary rate for insurance at the ' •' ^^'' ' ■^^ present moment upon a Company's ship is three per cent, out and three per cent, home, tliat is, six per cent, for the whole voyage. 5130. What is the actual loss of the Company by sea-risk? — It is very in- considerable indeed ; I believe not above three-quarters per cent. 5131. So that the difference between the three-quarters per cent, and the three per cent, you consider to be the profit to them as underwriters? — Certainlv. 5132. Do the Company always insure their own ships? — They are their own insurers in all cases. 5133. You have stated that there has been a greater fluctuation in the price of other articles of merchandize than in that of tea ; do you give that answer after an examination of the facts of the case ? — No, it is from what I have heard. 5134. Are you aware of the average price of pepper during the period in question ? — I have no information upon that subject. 5135. Are you aware that a part of the fall in price of those articles arises from the circumstance of their being considered as a consignment from a foreign country, and the profit upon the whole transaction, including freight, faUipg in a great measureupon the outward cargo from this country ? — I am not aware of that being the case; but it certainly would not do for the Company, if they are to meet the obligations imposed upon them, to import their teas without realizing any profit upon them. 513G. In answer to a question upon the subject of the export of British manufactures from this country to China, you made a distinction between the quantity and value of those manufiactures ; and you stated that, although the value of the Company's exports of that description had decreased, the quantities had not decreased ; does it not appear, by this account, that there has been a considerable decrease in the quantities — [A printed Account being shown to the xvitness] ? — This account is made up only to 1827-8. In that year there was a decrease in woollens and an increase in metals. 5137. Is not the amount of the metals and other articles very inconsider- able, compared with that of the woollens? — It is. 5138. Do the Company charge three per cent, on the export of bullion ? — No ; they do not. 5139. Are you not aware that bills on the Court of Directors and the Government of India, have for several years been in great request at Can- ton ? — I dare say they have. I have no doubt that individuals in India would be very glad to avail themselves of that mode of remittance, if the treasury were regularly open for cash in exchange for bills. 5140. In fact, if there be such demand for bills at Canton, is it not proba- 4 R 2 ble 678 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDI A AFFAIRS: 11 May 1830. ble that there would be less difficulty than you appeared to apprehend in providing so large a sum as two millions sterling? — I think two million J.C.MelvilLEsq. sterling is a large sum to provide ; and I have seen nothing in the documents received from China wiiich induces me to think that the supercargoes sup- pose that they could negotiate bills to that extent annually at the same time ; if the treasury were regularly open, no doubt a large sum would seek remittance to England in that mode, but that would interfere with the ope- ration of the Company's system as prescribed by law. 5141. In point of fact, with the increased demand on the part of the Com- pany, and with the greatly increased demand on the part of the Americans and other foreigners trading to China, has not the exchange been regularly falling from 5s. 6d. to 3s. l\d. the dollar? — 3s. 11^. is a rate I have seen quoted in the Canton Register ; but I have seen against it " No bills." 5142. Has not it been affected by the price of silver in Europe? — That has affected it, no doubt. 5143. Do not the words " no bills" mean that at the price of 3s. 1 Id. or 4*. there are no bills offered ? — I think it really means that there are no per- sons ready to grant the bills. 5144. Then the fact is, that at Canton, at the date of this price-current, you might have the dollar for 3s. lid. if you were disposed to give a credit upon London by a bill drawn upon London ? — To some extent ; but the low rate quoted may have been caused by no bills being obtainable. Had bills been offered, the rate might and probably would have risen. 5145. Then the exchange has fallen from 5s. 6d. to 3s. lid. notwith- standing an increased export of productions of China ? — It has materially fallen. 5146. And this fund might have been created without producing any of those effects which you apprehended would arise from a demand for two millions sterling ? — My apprehension as to a demand in China for two mil- lions sterling was, that the Company, compelled as they are by law to secure the public from failure in the supply of tea, could not with safety trust to that mode only for obtaining their funds in China; and nothing that I have heard has tended to remove that apprehension. 5147. Are you aware that in eleven years, from 1817-18 to 1827-8, the value of Indian opium sold at Canton alone, without including other quan- tities deposited in the other parts of China, has increased from 2,951,100 Spanish dollars in the first of those years to 11,213,496 in tlie last of those years ? — I know that there has been a great increase in tiie price which opium lias fetched in Canton ; but I have understood that that price has greatly fallen, and that by the last accounts it was still decreasing. 5148. Are you also aware that the exports of Chinese merchandize have been far from keeping pace with this extraordinary increase of exportation of SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 079 of opium? — I am aware that there has been a remittance of huUion from 11 May 1830. China to India every year to pay the balance. •^ -^ ' ^ .IC.MdnlhEsij. 5149. Does not the large remittance of bullion from China to India to pay the balance explain the temporary falling-ofF in the supply of opium from India to China; and does not it, in fact, show that the state of tlie trade now from China with other parts of the world is one in which they want the means of remittance, in order to pay for the great quantity of opium and other articles that they consume ? — It would appear that the Chinese cannot make returns in merchandize for all that they take. 5150. Then the result is, that in proportion to the consignments made of opium and many of those other articles, there will be greatly extended faci- lities given to the Company, or any other parties trading with Cliina, fur making remittances to India, and from India to Europe ? — To India, cer- tainly ; and the Company avail themselves of that resource to the extent of two-thirds of what they want. 5151. Are you not of opinion that if the Chinese could find increased means of remittance, they would consume a further quantity of opium and other goods from India and this country? — No doubt; but with respect to the opium trade, considerable uncertainty attaches to that, on account of the rigour that every now and then bursts out on the part of the government to check that contraband trade. 5152. When you see the consumption of one article increasing, in the short space of ten years, five-fold, is it not a strong presumption that that increase is likely to be still more extended, if it be not interfered with by some over-ruling authority? — It may in that period have reached its maximum. 5153. Can you state the amount of dollars and silver that was remitted to Bengal in the year 1828? — Such an account has been prepared, but I have not got it. 5154. In point of fact, did it exceed 5,000,000 of dollars ? — lam not aware. 5155. Have you seen the price-current in the Canton Register of the 26th of February 1828? — I have not. 5156. Are you aware that in the price-current it is stated, that the export from Canton to India for the season 1827-8 amounts in bullion to 5,667,979 Spanish dollars? — I am not aware of that fact, but I have no reason to doubt it. 5157. And that besides, the Company's Factory drew bills on the govern- ment of India to the extent of 1,700,000 Spanish dollars ? — Very probably that was the case. 5158. Have you seen the Chinese price-current of the 4th of February 1828 ?— No. 5159. Then 680 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: Jl May 1830. 5159. Then you are not aware that it states that the exports of bullion this season have been to a very large amount, and that in consequence of the J. C.Melvia,hsq. j^^^ rates of exchange many liad been induced to make their returns to India and Europe in metals, iron, lead and steel, to the extent to which they were procurable ? — I certainly was not aware that there was such proof of the difficulty of effecting returns from China to Europe. 51 Co. Does not this fact show that there is a very great change in the trade with China ; namely, that apparently the Chinese are embarrassed to find remittances in payment of the articles which they consume from India and from Europe? — It v/oidd undoubtedly show great difficulty inmaking returns. 5l6l. Especially too, if they have been driven to the necessity of sending goods imported from Europe to market as a means of payment? — Clearly. I certainly was not before aware that goods imported into China from Europe had been re-exported. 5lG'2. Does not the difficulty of remittance from China to India equally apply to other parts of the world ; because, if the remittance be made through India, it would equally extend to other parts of the world? — It would. 5lG3. Would not the cheaper price of tea, inducing a great increase of consumption in this country, afford the Chinese the facility for a greater remittance than they now have ? — It would undoubtedly give them a greater remittance. 51 Gl. Suppose, for instance, that instead of 30,000,000 we consume 60,000,000 of tea, would not the Chinese have the means of paying for a greatly increased quantity of European merchandize, or of the produce of India, whichever suited their taste to consume ? — Undoubtedly ; but if the larger quantity of tea were sold to the consumers only for the same sum that is now given for the smaller quantity, there would be no more than there now is to expend in British manufactures. 51G5. If there is double the quantity of tea sold, will not that give them a double power of consumption ? — The more the Chinese can give, the more they can take in return. 51GG. The Committee called for a return of any accounts or estimates which have been transmitted to the Lords of the Treasury under the Com- mutation Act, showing the sales made, the quantities put up to sale, and the prices and other particulars referred to in that Act, for the last five years ; the answer to that requisition has been, that no such accounts have been sent to the Treasury ; are you of opinion, looking at the fifth section of the Com- mutation Act, that it does not require such accounts? — That clause has always been construed to mean that the Lords of the Treasury were to have these accounts when they required them. 51G7. Is that the construction that the words imply? — I think it was at least as obligatory upon the Lords of the Treasury to call for the accounts as upon the Court to furnish tiiem. 516S. The SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. G81 5168. The words are, "Tliatthe said United Company shall, from time to '' ^^'ly lB.3(i. time, lay before the Lord Hi'^h Treasurer, or the Commissioners of tiie , ,, ,, , ,, _ Ireasury, copies or the accounts and estimates upon which such orders for ' importation, or prices for sales, or quantities put up to sale, shall he grounded, whenever such orders shall be sent out, or as often as they shall be called upon for the same by the said Lord High Treasurer or the Lords of the Treasury." Is not the natural construction of those words, that those accounts are to be regularly sent whenever those transactions take place ? — That would have been my construction, if the word had been and instead of oTf but there is an option given. The last clause would not have been neces- sary if the first had been imperative. 5l6y. Does the East-India Company, insuring itself, pay any duty to the Stamp-office for their insurances ? — None at all. The Company do not insure. 5170. You stated yesterday, that if the trade to China were thrown open, and the Company continued to carry it on in competition with the private trade, you thought, with all the advantages they possessed in starting, they miglit continue that competition : have the Company, with all the advan- tages they possessed at the opening the trade with India in 1814, been able to sustain their competition with the private traders ? — With respect to that, I stated yesterday that the Company's trade from India since 1814-15 had realized to them a better remittance than the bills of private merchants ; and I would now state, that the Company have been and are compelled to make the trade of India a trade of remittance. They must bring the rupee home from the government of India, and get what they can for it ; I cannot there^ fore look upon the Indian trade as one that the Company can conduct upon mere mercantile principles ; besides which, in judging of the results of the Company's Indian trade, the Committee will not fail to bear in mind that the accounts include the loss by the Board's rates of exchange. 5171. Have they made a profit independently of that arbitrary valuation of the rupee r — I think that upon the average, since 1814-15, if the accounts were made up at the mercantile rates, it would appear that the Company had made a profit upon the Indian trade. In some of the earlier years they made a very large profit. The account upon the Committee's table embraces only ten years ; if they will call for an account for the whole period since 1814-15, I think they will perceive a much more favourable result. 5172. Supposing the exclusive trade with China were taken away from the East-India Company, but that they still continued to carry on that trade as a Company, and supposing that by carrying on that trade it was consider- ably more divided than it has been, would not the increased competition in the China market give an opportunity to the Chinese to raise the general prices of their tea ? — I have no doubt that it would do so ; and I think that an opinion to that effect has been given in evidence before this Committee by 682 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 11 May 1830. by persons who are conversant with the Chinese character and the Canton market. J C. Melvill, Esq. 5173. Supposing the Indian products were considerably improved in quaUty, and produced in a larger quantity in India, would not that tend greatly to obviate the difficulties which you now find in obtaining remittances from the East? — If you can find a market for them, a profitable extension of exports from India is, in my humble judgment, an object the attainment of which is most desirable. 5174. Would not cotton constitute a considerable portion of these remit- tances under the circumstances supposed? — It might. 5175. Would not there a market be found for that cotton ? — The cotton of India comes into competition with Egyptian cotton, and other cottons which, although as cheap in their production, are probably superior to it in iTiany respects. 517G. Do not you think that the staple of the cotton might be considera- bly improved, so as to make it equal to other cottons ? — I think it is very much to be desired that every practical improvement should be effected. 5177- Has not the Court of Directors taken special pains in directing the attention of the government to that subject? — They have. Jovis, 13° die Maij 1830. ROBERT RICKARDS, Esq. again called in, and examined. ^ ^■^ 5178. Have you had an opportunity of examining the statements delivered 11. Rickards Esq '" ^^ ^'^^^ Committee by Mr. Melvill, and his observations on the statements laid by you before this Committee? — I have examined them, as far as the leisure I could devote to it would admit. 5179. Will you turn to question 4359 of Mr. Melvill's evidence, which relates principally to the prices of tea, and state what observations you have to make upon his answer respecting the price being charged too low by you ? — Mr. Melvill, in his remarks upon my statement, seems to think that I have taken the price of tea in China at too low a rate. He says, " Mr. Rickards computes the prime cost of tea in the coin of China very far below wliat is taken either by Mr. Bates or Mr. Thornley, and so far below what is actually paid by the Company, that I cannot imagine that the Company could have obtiiined teas at the prices computed by Mr. Rickards without a deterioration in quality." The prices included in the statement I delivered to the Com- mittee Ml my answer Sirrla, p. 113, to show at what rate a private merchant could import tea into tliis country at a profit, are the prices, I presume, to which Mr. Melvill alludes. Those prices may be lower than the Comjjany's, but SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 683 but they are the prices at whicli private merchants and individuals are con- 13 May 1830. stantly in the liabit of purchasinir their teas in China, and even at a lower ~ rate. It is very certain that wlienever the Company j^o into the market to 'c ar s,Lsq. purchase any commodity, prices rise ; and this appears in the present instance to be the case, as the Cliina price-currents will show ; for in every year, from the month of October to the month of January, the period of the Company's ships being in China, prices are at the highest ; after that they fall. I have a price-current which states, in the month of May 1829, the price of Congo tea (the chief' article of import) to be from 18 to 20 tales per pecul. Private merchants profess to be in the habit of purchasing equally good tea at 18 tales per pecul with that of the Company, which is ciiarged at 20 tales per pecul. I have taken it in iny statement at the medium between 18 and 26, namely, 22 tales per pecul, deeming it a fair rate for such a statement as that which 1 submitted to the Committee in my answer 3454«, p. 413, anil which I take to be the statement here referred to, 5180. You are speaking of corresponding qualities of cour.se? — I am speaking of a corresponding quality, because I have repeatedly heard of tea which has been purchased in China at 18 tales per pecul selling heie at the same rate, and sometimes higher tlian the Company's tea of the same denomination. 5181. Have you heard or are you able to assign any reason why private merchants should be able to purchase their tea on better terms than the Company do - — Private merchants will always make better bargains than the Company's agents can ; and, as far as my observation goes, their purchases are generally made at the rate I now mentioned : I believe the Americans do the same. In what is called the season, that is, from October to January, when the Company are in the market, and when their ships are loading for Europe, the teas are, as before observed, quoted invariably in the Canton price-currents at much higher prices than they are the rest of the year ; Congo, for example, is generally quoted at 26 tales per pecul, and immedi- ately after the season closes it falls to from 18 to 20, and so continues for the remainder of the year. After 'he season closes, the tea is commonly denomi- nated old tea, in contradistinction to the tea purchased during the season, which is called new tea ; but the old tea is, generally speaking, fully as good as what is denominated new tea, or as that exposed at the Company's sales ; and for this simple reason, viz. that although it might be somewhat older tea in China than the Company's when purchased, yet when it comes to tliis country in the privilege of the commanders and officers of the Company's ships, it is sold immediately on arrival, wliereas tiie Company's lea is kept, accord- ing to Mr. Melvill's statement, ui)on an average of twenty months in ware- house before sale ; therefore the Company's tea, when sold, must be fidly as old, or perhaps older, than what is called old tea purchased by the Company's officers in China. 5182. Are the Committee to understand that during the large purchases 4 S made R. Kickiirds,Esq. 684 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 13 May 1830. made by the Company in the few months of tlie year the prices are raised by that demand? — The price-currents of China invariably show a rise at that period. 5183. Are you able, from any of the documents on the table of the Com- mittee, to state the relative sale prices in England of the private trade tea, and of the tea sold by the Company, taking the congo as an example ? — According to the Account No. 15, in Paper 6 of the papers delivered in to the Committee in 1830, it appears that the price of the Company's congo tea at the Jime sale of 1823 was 2.?. T-f^d., the private trade tea in the same sale sold for Ss. 8-^d. ; in the congo tea there is a difference throughout the whole of those sales, from the cursory view I now take of it, rather I should think, in favour of the private trade, though I do not perceive any instance of so great a difference as in this June sale. 5184.. You are aware that the Company purchase a large portion of their tea by contract made with the tea merchants previous to the season ? — Yes. 5185. Have the officers of the Company's ships any other means of pur- chasing than going into the public market the same as foreigners ? — No other that I am aware of. 518G. Therefore none of the private trade tea can be contract tea ? — I am not aware how private traders make their bargains on all occasions. Some of the purchases made by private individuals are, as I understand, taken from the Hong, and some from the outside merchants. I do not myself know of any contracts entered into by individuals similar to those of the East-India Company. 5187. And although the tea belonging to the officers of the Company's ships is not contract tea, yet by the sale prices you have stated it sells in England at a higher price than the Company's tea? — So it appears on some occasions, at least by this statement. 5188. Are you able, from any communication with officers who have been at Canton, to state whether the prices they ])ay for tiieir tea are higher or lower generally than those quoted in the price-currents, or stated by the Company to be their average price? — They are almost invariably, I believe, lower than the prices quoted in the Canton price-currents between the months of October and January in each year. 5189. Will you look at some of the other years, and see whether the private trade tea sells at prices above or below the Company's s;;le prices? — In the June sale of 18'24- the Company's congo sold at 2s. iki. a pound, and the private trade tea at 25. lOd. In 1825 the Company's congo sold at 2s. 5-fjjd., and the private trade tea at 25. S^'^d. In Juno 1826 the Com- pany's congo is quoted at 25. 2-y^f/. and 25. i'-Yod; and the private trade tea at 25. U'ud. 5190. Will you state the result in December 1826? — In the December sales 1826 the Company's congo is quoted at 2i. ^iod. and 25. Sjod., and the private trade tea at 25. 3rod. 5191. Are SELECT COMMITTEE ok the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 685 5191. Are you able, by looking at those accounts of sales of tea in this 13 May 1830. country, both Company's and private trade tea, to say whether, on an average, . the private trade tea sells at an inferior price to that of the Company ? — I I^- ^itf^^^rr/s, hxq. have not made any calculation founded upon this account, as to the average price of the tea sold by tlie ('ompany and that sold by private individuals ; but, on a cursory view of this document, it appears to me that what I before stated, in answer to the questions that have been put to me on this subject, is confirmeil, and that the private trade tea, upon the average, sells at as fair a price as the Company's tea in this market, and in some instances it has been found to sell higher. 5192. Do you mean relatively to its quality ?— I have given my reasons for presuming that the quality of the private trade tea is not inferior to that of the Company. 5193. Are the Committee then to conclude that the evidence given by you at your first examination, as to the prices of tea, is, fully borne out by these documents before the Committee, and by the information from private merchants, and is not erroneous, as stated in Mr. Melvill's evidence ? — It is fully borne out by the documents which I have refeired to, including the Canton price-currents, as far as regards the prices I have inserted in the Statement delivered in in answer to question 3454a, and contained in page 413 of the Evidence. 5194. When you stated that the private trade tea is sold at the same rates upon the average as the Company's tea, do you mean to abide by what you first said, that it was sold at a higher rate ; because you set out by referring to a particular year, in which you showed a great discrepancy, which discre- pancy does not exist upon the whole average of years ? — I referred, in the first instance, to the June sale of 1823, because it was the first column in this account which I was directed to examine and quote. In cursorily looking over the remaining sales, which are very numerous in this paper, it appeared to me that the average price of the private trade tea was upon the whole as high, and sometimes higher than the Company's ; as for example, in 1827, in the June sale, the Company's congo sold at 25, 3^d. and 2*. 4j^rf., while the private trade tea sold at 2s. if-f-QcL There are certainly variations in the difterent sales contained in this account ; but on the whole I do not see any thing that materially affects the evidence 1 have given on the subject of prices. 5195. Do you think upon the average they sell for nearly the same? — It appears by this docuinent that they do. 5196. You have stated that the sales at the India-House, in general, have produced as good a price of the tea belonging to private trade as that belonging to the Company ; will you be so good as to state to the Committee whether the lea purchased by officers belonging to the Company in Ciiina, and sold at the India-House, is the same quality of tea which is bou;>ht by foreign traders in China ? — I cannot pretend to say what the exact quality of 4 S 2 the 686 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 13 May 1830. the tea sold at the India-House is, having never examined it, it not being in . , my way to deal in tea in any respect ; but 1 have given reasons in the former K.Kickards, i.sq. p^j.^ of my examination for presuming that the tea purchased in China, and sold by the Company's officers in this country, is of an equal quality with that put up at the Company's sales on their own account. 5197- !s it purchased in China at rates very much the same as those given by foreign traders? — I do not know what the Americans purchase tiieir teas at. I can only judge from the regular course of the price-currents which I have quoted ; and accordingly infer, that if British private traders can pur- chase tea at 18 to 20 tales per pecul, Americans may do the same. 5198. Is not then the inference from your answer, that the teas soldat the India-House of the private trade must be equal to the teas purchased by the India Company ? — I presume that they aje equal, for the reasons I have already given. 5199. Can you state to the Committee whether the teas purchased in China by Americans and other traders are of the same quality as those pur- chased by the officers of the Cumpany ? — I have no precise knowledge of the quality of the tea purchased by Americans ; but ! have always had reason to suppose that the American teas purchased in China were of as good quality as those commonly sold in this country. 5200. Then if the fact were that the teas purchased by the Americans and others in China were of an inferior quality, would the statement which you have made to the Committee of the prices which have been obtained at the India-House for the teas of the private trade he any regulation to the Committee in forming their opinion ? — I do not l)elieve that the teas sold in AmeriCfi are inferior to those sold in this country ; for I have generally un- derstood from persons who have visited America, that they have drunk better tea in America than they have done in this coimtry. 5201. If the price which the private trade tea bears in England, as com- pared with the price of the Company's tea, is any criterion of the compara- tive quality of the private trade tea, would not also the price of the tea bought in China by the private trade, compared with the tea bought by foreigners in China, also lead to a conclusion as to the comparative quality of those teas? — 1 have no precise knowledge ol" American prices, compared with the quality of their teas. I only know that during the season, which extends from October to January in each year, tiio tea is invariably higher from 20 to 30 per cent, than during any other period of the year ; and there- fore the teas of the same quality, congo, for example, that costs, during the season, 20 tales per pecul, will sell for 18 and 20 tales per pecul after the season is closed. ii\ therefore, one merchant can get it at tliis rate, I pre- sume another can do the same. 5202. Is not that tea which is bought in the private trade in China, and which sells in this country at a price in many instances higher than the tea of SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 68? of the Company, very often tea wliicli pisses under l!>e denomination of old 13 May 1830. tea ?— Yes it is. ^ Ri^ds, Etq. 5203. Do not the persons entitled to the private trade purchase tlieir teas in Cliina at the reduced price whicli ensues after the Company's purchases - — I have understood that they purchase some portion of it, whilst some pur- chase the wliole at the reduced price. 5204. May it not be presumed that much of the private trade tea is of that description ? — I am not prepared to say that the greater part of it is oUl tea. 5205. Do you conceive that tiie captains of the Company's ships buy gene- rally what is called the old tea or not ? — Yes, they do, very often. 5206. Is it not probable, as the ships sail in December, that the captains of the Company's ships buy their tea at the same time that the Company does? — That does not always follow ; because the captains and officers of the Company's ships may have correspondents in China ; agents whom they can authorize to purciiase teas for them when the tea is at the cheapest rate. 5207. If a foreigner at Canton purchases a quantity of tea at the same rate as a person in the privileged trade, does not the presumption arise that the qualities of those two portions of tea are equal? — Clearly. 5208. If a person in tlie privileged trade sells the tea which is so bought at a price equal to the price whicli the Company gets for its tea, is not it also a presumption that the tea which that privileged person sells is of as good a quality ;'s that of the Company? — Clearly ; it may be so presumed. 5209. Does not that lead to the inference, that the tea bought by the foreigner in Canton is of as good a quality as the tea sold by the Company in England ? — I have always understood that the American tea is of equal quality, and sometimes superior. 5210. Is not that estimate of the qualities of the different teas an inference drawn from the prices whicli they respectively fetch at the Company's sales ? — It is certainly a fair inference. 521 1. You have stated that old tea is sold cheaper than the new tea in the Canton market ; by the old tea is it meant tea that has been kept for a year, or only tea that has been kept over the period of the winter sales? — Only the tea that has been kept over the period of the winter sales ? When the season closes, the tea is invariably called old tea, and sold as such ; though only a month older than the other. 5212. Have you ever been in China? — Yes. 5213. From what source do you obtain your information as to the price at which the privileged tea is bought .^ — From various officers and pursers whom I have spoken to upon the subject in the city, and who have in- variably 688 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 13 May 1830. variably given me the same information which I now submit to the Com- mittee. *' 5214. Have you not had tlie sale of some tea?— Yes; some of the last season passed through our hands. 5215. Do the officers in the private trade invariably make their invest- ments in tea at a period subsequent to the Company ? — They have the means of corresponding with agents in China, and have therefore the means of making their purchases previous to their arrival, or before the season commences. 5216. Then the officers of the Company pursue the same custom that the Company do themselves, of making contracts for the teas previous to their being shipped? — They enter into engagements with the private merchants in Canton ; but as to making regular contracts, I do not understand that they pursue the same course in that respect that the Company does. 5217. If they make engagements, would not those engagements fix the price? — Of course they will. 5218. What effect could the purchases of the officers of the Company have upon the market of China after the teas which they have engaged for are fur- nished to them ? — The effect produced on the China market by the purchases of tea will of course be limited by the extent of those operations. 5219. In answer to question 4359, Mr. Melvill has stated, that on ex- amining the calculations that have been given in by you, ^'r. Bates, and Mr. Thornley, he finds " that one fallacy attends most of them, taking tiie valua- tion of the tale according to the rate of exchange at the period of unusual depression ;" will you state how far that objection taken by Mr. Melvill applies as to your statements ? — Confining myself again to the statement included in my answer 3454fl, p. 413, I have taken the value of the tale at 5s. Qd. and the value of the dollar at 45. ; now when the dollar is at 4s. the sterling value of the tale will be found by a simple rule to be wiiat I have stated, 5s. 6d. and a small fraction. It is the rate which I have adopted in this statement, because I know that dollars can be procured in Cliina at that exchange. I have myself placed many thousand pounds stei ling in Cl)ina at a lower rate per dollar than 4*. ; and I know that |)rivate bills have been re- ceived in this country drawn at the rate of 3s. lOd. and Ss. llrA per Sj)auish dollar, at six months' sight ; I tlierefbre maintain that I am perfectly correct in respect to the prices which I have adopted in this statement, as well as in regard to the rate of exchange. I beg leave to add, in regard to the other statements which I delivered in, that they have no reference whatever to the rales of exchange, as I before stated in my first examination upon tiiis sub- ject. I took out of official documents the cost in pounds sterling, which I found there stated as tlie prime cost of the tea ; and I considered that to be the actual cost to the East-India Company, without any reference to the rate of exchange between tales and sterling money. 5220, Was R. Jiicknrdi, l.f/. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 689 5220. Was the exchange oi' 3s. lOd. to which you have alluded, esta- 13 Mny 1830. blished by direct draft from Canton upon England? — By direct draft. 5221. Would you rely upon such an exchange for the whole purchase of tea, if the quantity was as large as that which the Company requires? — It would depend upon the intercourse between China and this country ; if the intercourse were extended, and there was a great number of bills in the market, the exchange would of course rise. 5222. By a statement laid before this Committee from the East-India House, it appears that, in tiie year 1827-8, the rate of exchange per dollar was 45. lid. for six months, the sum drawn for appearing to be £16,129; can you state what has been the rate of exchange by bills from private mer- chants in that year ? — I cannot precisely, without a reference to documents which I have not at hand. As nearly as I can now recollect, the private bills before referred to were dated the latter end of the year 1828. They were drawn on a merchant in the city at 3y. 10^/. or 3^. lie?, at the utmost. This too is the prevailing rate of exchange now quoted in China, and has been for some years past, I believe. 5223. It appears also by the same account that, in the year 1828-9, the rate of exchange for the dollar was 45. Qd. and that £35,791 is the total amount of bills drawn by the Select Committee at Canton on England ; does the observation you made respecting the rate of exchange by private bills apply to that year ? — It applies to the bills I have before mentioned, which were drawn at 3s. lOd. or 35. lid. about the latter end of the year 1828; but it is within my knowledge also, that from the difficulty of pro- curing bills in China, private merchants have remitted funds through the way of America ; and though by this circuitous route, and consequently from the longer time bills had to run, merchants have been able to obtain rather a better exchange, yet those bills even have only realized in this country about 45. 5224. Then is the opinion you gave before the Committee as to the rate of exchange unaltered, notwithstanding the statement made in the evidence of Mr. Melvill ? — Quite so, as regards private transactions. 5225. Have you made any inquiries, in the meantime, of other persons connected and acquainted with tiie trade to China, upon that subject ? — I am frequently in the habit of conversing with people in the city of London upon the subject of China and the China trade, and I have never derived any other information from experienced persons on that subject except that which I now give to the Committee. 5226. Do you happen to know whether, in the two years 1827-8 and 1828-9, bills were in considerable demand at Canton ? — Bills are always in great demand at Canton. They must be in great demand, from the existing course of trade ; and the reason of their being at so low an exchange is, because there are so few bills to meet the demand. 5227. Is that difference as to the exchange between you and Mr. Melvill confined 690 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 13 May 1830. confined to the period of 1828-9, or does your view of it spread over the R P ~h ~H p whole peiiod of the last fourteen years? — I cannot speak to tlie whole ' ^' period of tlie last fourteen years from recollection, and have no documents at hand to refer to; but this rate of exchange would naturally prevail as long as the demand for bills should so far have exceeded the supply. 5228. In your answer to question No. 3454, in page 413, in computing the price paid b}' the Company for tea at an average price for the whole period of the present charter, you compute the value of the dollar at 45., whereas it is in evidence that the dollar in exchange ha«, dining the greater part of that period, been much higher ; do you consider that, in order to make an average comparison, the prices of the tea and the rates of exchange should have reference to the same period ? — 1 have taken the average price in that statement of the Company's teas at 25. 9d. '92 per pound, from the official document referred to in my answer, and now upon the table of this Committee; but tiiis is the sale price in England. With regard to the rate at which dollars may be procured in China by private trailers I speak, it is true, of the present time, but the rate at which dollars can be procured has reference to the cost price in China. All, therefore, that I mean to maintain in that statement is, that the tea may be procured at the prices which 1 have given, viz. so many tales per pecul. 5229. Do not you consider that the rate of exchange and the price of tea should be compared in the same year, and that if the exchange is averaged, so ought the price of tea to be ? — For the " second" head of comparison con- tained in my statement, I know no iairer way of making the comparison than that which I have adopted, viz. by taking what tlie Company have them- selves declared to be the average sale price of the tea for the whole period of the charter, or 25. 9d. "92, and to compare the result with that of the price at which I believe it can be soUl in this country, viz. l5. 6d. ; and having in the "fiist" head of comparison taken the sale price of 1828-9 to compare with that included in my Statement (the average price of the Company in that year being only 25. 3d. •!)?)) they have therefore the advantage of the difference i)etween 25 Sd. -97 ;ind 25 dd. '92 in the *' first" cotnparison. 5230. Do not you consider that if the aver;ige of the period be taken with reference to t!ie exchange, for the |)nrpose of computing the upset price of the article, the average of the [irice should also be taken for the same period ? — I have taken the price in my Statement at which tea can now be purchased, that is, in the year 1828-9, and compared the resulting sale j)rice in this country, * first," with the average price of the Company's tea in 1828-9, or 25. 3d. •97; and '• secomlly," with the average sale price of fifteen years, or 25. 9^/. '92. Hail I taken the average price of many single years previous to 1828-9 to compare with the sale price of my Statement, it might justly iiave been objected to; the result or comparison given in the State- ment would, in that case, be more luifavonrable to the Cotnpany ; but I do not R.Rxckards, Esq. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 691 not exactly comprehend wliat connection is supposed to exist between the 13 May 1830. rate of exchange in China and the sale price of tea in this country. 5231. Do you consider the rate at which bills may be negociated at Canton a fair test of the rate at which the Company could purchase their teas, to the amount of £2,000,000 a year? — The rate of exchange, in such a case, would depend upon existing circumstances. It may be impossible for any body to say what would be the precise rate of exchange between Canton and Eng- land, if private individuals were admitted into that market, with the privilege of purchasing 30,000,000 or 4-0,000,000 lbs. of tea every year, but in all probability it would be nearer the real par than at present. 5232. Supposing the Company at present were pleased to pay for their teas in bills of exchange in London, do you think they could negociate them at 35. llcL? — I do not think that they could. 5233. Supposing England were supplied with tea by the private trade instead of being supplied exclusively by the Company, do you not contem- plate a very considerable change in the commercial intercourse between England and China ? — A very considerable change. 5234'. Do not you conceive that that change would, in all probability, tend to create a considerably larger demand for bills upon England than exists at the present moment ? — Certainly ; but a considerably greater supply of bills also. 5235. What has been the effect of the change which has taken place in the trade between England and India ? — It has had the effect of altering the exchange most materially. When that trade was closed, or almost closed, to private individuals between England and India, I can remember the ex- change, Calcutta on London, at '■2s. "Jd., 2*. 8rf., and 2s. dd. the sicca rupee ; it is now at Is. \\d., or from that to '■Zs. 5236. Has not the rate of exchange fallen considerably in China in latter years r — Yes ; to the disatlvantage of that country. 5237. Has not that fall, in a great measure, arisen from the increased intercourse which has taken place between India and China, and between Europe, America, and China? — I think it has chiefly arisen from the great difficulty there is in procuring remittances through the way of China. In proportion as the bills are few compared with the demand for them, the India and China merchants must, of course, pay a higher price for such as are in the market. 5238. Has not the difficulty of obtaining bills by remittance on England arisen from the want of power in Englishmen to send home goods from China to England ? — Certainly. 5239. Would not, therefore, an increased intercourse by a free trade of imports and exports very materially alter the state of exchange; and would not the balance in favour or against depend on the amount of exports as compared with the imports ? — This would clearly operate as one cause. 4 T 5240. Would 69'2 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 13 May 1830. 5240. Would not the rate of exchange depend upon the balance of pay- nients ? — Exactly. '' '^" 5241. Would not the amount of bills procurable depend upon the extent of the commercial intercourse between the two countries? — Clearly. 5242. You have spoken of the variation of exchange with India since the opening of the trade ; has not the currency of this country been changed ? — It has. 5243. Since the restoration of the metallic currency, have not the ex- changes become much more in favour of this country than they were before generally through the world? — No doubt the exchange will always depend in one respect upon the value of the currencies in which bills are drawn and paid ; but the effect alluded to in the question is, I apprehend, the reverse of that anticipated from the opening of the China trade. 5244. In answer to question 4360, IMr. Melvill states, that on examining your Statement, he finds that you have fallen into the same error as Mr. Thornley, by taking the rate of exchange in one year and the prices in another ? — I think Mr. Melvill must have misunderstood my Statement in this respect ; for in the estimates I have given of the Company's trade I did not refer to any rate of exchange whatever ; I merely took the sum of the prime cost of the tea in pounds sterling, as given in the official document I then quoted, without any reference to the rates of exchange. 5245. Are you aware in what way his observation can apply to the state- ment on which he has observed ? — It cannot apply to the statement included in my answer 3454, p. 413; and if he refers to the statement 1 have given in respecting the Company's trade, he must have misconceived me, inasmuch as I did not in that statement, as before observed, refer to any rate of exchange. 524G. Does it not refer to the statement you made when you calculated what the tea could be bought for ? — It may refer to that statement. 5247. Is it the fact that you have taken the rate of exchange in one year and the prices in another? — If reference be had to the statement included in my answer 3454, p. 413, the remark will be found not to apply; but if the other statement be alluded to, it will be found that, in this respect, 1 have only followed the course of the official documents before the public, in whicii, where a comparison is drawn between the prime cost of tea and the sale amount, the prime cost of one year is taken and the sale amount of the following. 5248. Then are the Committee to understand that in all those statements the rate of exchange has nothing to do with your calculation? — With the statement relative to the Company's trade it certainly has not. If I am allowed, 1 would make one more remark upon this statement, in answer to question 345t, p. 113, wherein Mr. Melvill objects to my adopting in this and the other statements five per cent, as the rate of wastage. In the state- ment SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 693 ment included in my answer 3454, p. 413, I have admitted the loss in 13 May 1830 weight and allowance to buyers, commonly called draft, to be equal to five per cent, and I should be glad to explain to the Committee the grounds I^-^Uckards, Esq. upon which I have formed that calculation. The Company are in the habit of granting a certain [)rivilege to their commanders and officers upon their ships for the purpose of bringing home tea to this country, and they allow them, as I understand, to fill this privileged tonnage with tea at the rate of 9 cwt. to the ton. The commanders and officers, in avaihng themselves of this privilege, put on board for each ton 7 peculs 93 catties, or 8 peculs of tea. Now 9 cwt. is only equal to 1,008 pounds, whereas 7 peculs and 93 catties weight are equal to 1,058 pounds, or five per cent, more than the regulated allowance. That five per cent, therefore, is what they consider to be the amount of wastage on the passage home ; and it is not likely, unless that was the common and average rate of wastage, that they would adopt it as the rule of filling their own tonnage; because if they are found upon their arrival in England to have exceeded the amount of their privilege, (that is, to have put more tea on board than they are allowed by the regula- tion of the East-India Company,") they are made to pay, as I understand, £60 per ton for every portion of the excess. We have, therefore, every reason to conclude that they adopt this five per cent, for wastage, on the ground of its having been proved, by their own experience, to be the amount of loss on the passage home. On real/y old tea the wastage is less, and may be estimated at two and a half to three per cent. There is, besides, another allowance in this country, but generally included under the term wastage, and that is an allowance to buyers of one pound upon every chest that is sold. Now a chest of black tea is seventy-two pounds, a chest of green tea about sixty pounds. This allowance, therefore, is of itself upwards of one and one-third per cent.; and when Mr. Melvill and Mr. Lloyd assert that the wastage and the allowance for draft, together only amount to two per cent, (the wastage on the passage home being in tiiis case little more than one-half per cent.,) it appears to me quite incredible, and altogether inconsistent with the experience and usage of private traders. By inserting five per cent, for wastage and draft together in my statement 3454, p. 413, I shall therefore be found to have taken it against myself if I have rated it at too much ; but I think, from what I have explained regarding the practice of the Company's officers, five per cent, cannot be considered as too much for the united allowance. At all events, in tlie future state- ments I mean to deliver in, I have adopted four per cent, as sufficient to cover the wastage upon the passage home, and allowance for draft in this country ; and this 1 take to be a moderate allowance, as applicable to both descriptions of tea. 5249. In the second division of the statement you have made, contrasting the price at which the Company supply tea to this country with the price at which it could be lurnished by the private merchant, you have taken the average price of tea during the charter, as sold by the Company, to be 4 T 2 2s. 9d. 694. EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 13 May 1830. 2.s. gd,-^ and you have taken the price at which it couhl be fiirnisiied by the " ~ private trader at Is.Gd.; would it not have been fair, as in forming tiiat ■ "^ "^ *' *^* calculation of Is. Gd. you have founded it upon the rates of exchange at Canton, to have considered what those rates of exchange have been during the whole duration of the cliarter ? — It does not appear to me that the rates of exchange in China have any thing to do with the prices at wliich teas can be sold in England in sterling money. If the private merchant can sell his tea with a profit of Is. 6d. per pound, I think it fair to compare it, as I have done, with the sale prices of the Company. 5250. In answer to question 3454^7, p. 413, you have stated, that " in the above calculations the Spanish dollar is taken at 45.; the rate of exchange at Canton was even lower last season, as many bills were drawn at 35. lOf/. and 3s. lid. per Spanish dollar at six months' sight." Now if the Spanish dollar, instead of being at 45., had been at 45. 6d., would it not have affected the result at which you have arrived, so as to make the cost at which tea could be supplied by the private trader in this country above Is. 6(1. ? — It would not. it would only affect the result as to profit. If tlie dollar cost the purchaser of the tea 45. 6d. instead of 45., that would be an advance on the prime cost of eleven per cent.; in that case the tea might still be sold at Is. 6d. the pound in this country, and be supposed to leave a net profit to the importer of seven per cent. But I would beg leave to observe, that if the trade were thrown open, as I propose, it is not probable the exchange would rise to 45. 6d. It is more likely to vibrate within limits nearer to the real par. 5251. When you state that tea could be supplied at l5. 6d., and that the exchange is no relative part of its cost, upon what principle do you regu- late the upset price? — A private trader in disposing of his goods has no upset price like that adopted at the Company's sales. In the statement of 3454 a, p. 413, the average cost of the tea being regulated by a rate of exchange of 45. per dollar, it appears from the result of that statement that the teas might be sold in this country at l5. (Jd. a pound, and then leave a profit of IS per cent, to the importer. If the purchaser of the tea in China was obliged to pay higher for his tea there, that is, to purchase his dollar at a higher rate of exchange than 45., the only effect it would have upon this statement is, as before observed, to diminish the amount of the profit. 5252. Is not your calculation made upon the lowest rate of profit at which a private merchant would carry on such a transaction ? — By no means. The private merchant would be well satisfied with a net profit of 10 per cent., whereas upon the grounds of this statement he gets 18. 5253. Upon what grounds do you calculate that the private trader would be entitled to charge the public 18 per cent, profit? — I only say that if he got Is. C)d. for his tea, upon the grounds of this calculatiui), he would gtt 18 per cent, as the result of the adventure j but it is probable that so high a rate of profit "SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 695 profit would soon come to be reduced by public competition, and then the ^^ J^^y 1^30. private merchant would not be indisposed, I presume, to take less. " ~ ,, .5254. Must not the cost of the tea be influenced by the rate of exchange ? — I admit that it is ; that is, the prime cost 5'255. You have given two statements, one of which is a calculation of what the profit will be on one year's actual transactions, and the other is a calculation of what the profit would be on the average of a given period ; you have assumed that the sale price of the Company's tea would be 2s. Qd. for the whole period, and you have assumed that the price of the merchant would be the same ; do you suppose that merchants could have procured assets to buy tea during the whole period at the same rate which you assume? — It is impossible to say at what rate merchants could have procured the dollar in China during the whole of that period, if the trade with China had been perfectly free ; neither do I think there are any documents in this country which would establish that fact. In the event of a perfectly free trade, it is probable the exchange would not vary much from the real par; and I therefore repeat, that if, during any portion of the period, the dollar should have cost the private merchant more than 4.s. the effect would have been to raise the prime cost of the tea in China, and to diminish, pro ianto, the result of the concern. 5'256. If the dollar had been 5s. 6d., would not it have taken away the profit altogether ?— No doubt it would ; but that is a rate not to be contemplated. I will venture to predict, that if the trade is thrown open between this country and China, the dollar never will rise to 5s. 6d. 5257. Has it not done so in past years ? — Yes ; and so had the sicca rupee risen to 25. 9d. under the influence of the Company's monopoly ; but I main- tain, upon the same grounds, that the sicca rupee in India can never again rise to 2s. 9d., so neither can the dollar rise to 5s. 6d., if the trade be thrown open. 5258. You have stated that in estimating the cost of the tea you have had no reference to the rate of exchange ? — I have stated that, in regard to the sale price, I have had no reference to the rate of exchange, but not with regard to the cost. I have said that a rise in the cost price will only diminish, pro tanto, the ultimate profit. 5259. Will you turn to the answer to question 4375 in Mr. Mclvill's Evi- dence, in which he says, " I am prepared now to prove that Mr. Rickards's Statements involve errors and omissions which, when corrected, leave a credit to the amount of £956,301," and soon, stating the amoimt of several years j have you examined those Statements, and what observations have you to make to the Committee on the corrections given in by Mr. Melvill to those Statements, beginning with the first for the year 1820-21 - — I have examined those Statements ; and I would beg leave to observe, upon the Statements which I delivered on former examinations to tiiis Committee, that they are founded upon my interpretation of the 57th clause of the Act of 53 Geo. IIL c. 155, 696 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 13 May 1830. c. 155, the words of which it may be convenient here to quote: " That for R ff~i~^ p ^"'^ during the continuance of the possession and government of the said ic ards,Asq. tgrritorial acquisitions and revenues in the said United Company, the net proceeds of their sales of goods at home, with the duties and allowances arising by private trade, and all the commercial profits and other receipts of the said Company in Great Britain, shall be applied and disposed of in manner following ; that is to say, first, in providing for the payment of bills of exchange already accepted and hereafter to be accepted by the said Com- pany, as the same shall become due; secondly, in providing for the current payment of other debts (the principal of the bond debt in England always excepted) as well as interest, and the commercial outgoings, charges and expenses of the said Company ; thirdly, in payment of a dividend, after the rate of £10 per centum per annum, on the present or any future amount of the capital stock of the said Company." According to my view of that clause in the Act, it appears to me that the Company are required to pay out of their net profits the interest upon the home bond debt in this country (the principal being expressly excluded there when speaking of interest), together with the dividends upon their stock ; and the object of those State- ments was to show that there was not a sufficiency of net profit upon the China trade (the only portion of the Company's commercial concerns that I had then any means of examining) to pay the whole amount of these dividends and interest. When I gave in those Statements, it will be recol- lected by the Committee, that I observed upon them, that it was impossible they could be altogether accurate ; that they were consequently liable to corrections, and that having taken the items contained in those Statements from certain official documents which I then referred to, having no others before me to quote, I merely presented them as affiarding proof in the abstract of the position I liad assumed. When, therefore, Mr. Melvill brought to this Committee certain corrections of those Statements, it was reasonable to expect that he would produce an account, prepared upon mercantile prin- ciples, of the actual profit derived by the East-India Company at the several periods referred to ; instead of which we have from Mr. Melvill an arbitrary combination of figures, which are not only not supported by any official document that I have seen, but are absolutely at variance with all those official documents now, as I understand, on the table of this Committee, as I shall proceed to prove. But before I go to the proof, I would beg leave to observe upon the explanation which is now given of the term prime cost. In my original Statements I took prime cost to mean, what every other private merchant would do, the actual price paid by the purchaser to the seller of the commodity; whereas we are now informed, that the " prime cost" of Leaden- hall-street includes a variety of items which it was impossible for any private merchant, or I believe any human being, to conceive would have been included in the term prime cost, unless he had been previously admitted into the arcana of the India-House. That prime cost, as now explained, means, it appears, not the prime cost of the tea, but the prime cost of a certain SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. G97 certain quantity of woollens from England and cotton from India, with the 13 May 1830. charges of freight, insurance, and other items included therein (not added); among which I find, or rather I infer, from the examinations of Mr. Melvill ^^- ^'">'^''if*>^^9- and Air. Lloyd, that the following are component items: viz. "the cost of maintenance of the Factory, comprising rent and repairs of private apart- ments, as well as furniture supplied thereto, and the expense of the puhlic table kept in the Factory;" that it also includes " rent, repairs, and furni- ture, including a charge of six percent, per annum on buildings and other dead stock, the property of the Company in China ; Canton port charges ; duties on imports sold by auction; unloading charges; expense of the removal of the Factory establishment to and from Macao; charge of the Company's schooner, boat-hire, &c.; ditto on account of their reception on board the Company's ships during discussions with the Chinese authorities ; linguists' fees; Chinese masters, &c.; stationery and articles for use ; wages of coolies and watchmen ; packing charges, &c. ; petty expenses ; printing establishment." These are Chinese charges. Besides which there are super- added, as incurred in England, " a proportion of the charges of establish- ment and shipping charges attaching upon the Company's exports to China." This is the explanation now given of the term prime cost" at the India- House ; and if I have been led into error in the first instance in not conceiving the possibility of "prime cost" being made up of such a host of incongruous items, I hope to stand perfectly justified in the opinion of the Committee. Now, however, that we understand what " prime cost " means, I shall of course adopt it in its new sense in the future statements which I shall have to lay before the Committee. In respect to the article of prime cost, there- fore, I stand corrected under the explanation now given. But with regard to the next item, or the sale quantity per contra, given in Mr. Melvill's cor- rected statements, he has, I presume, adopted an estimated amount, by taking the sale quantity at two per cent, less than the original quantity, on the sup- position of two per cent, being a sufficient allowance for wastage, which, according to the explanation I have given in reference to my former state- ment, I take to be perfectly erroneous. He has, moreover, adopted an esti- mated amount as to the sale proceeds of tea, for I cannot find either that quantity specified by him, or the amount sale proceeds thereof, in any one official document now upon the table of the Committee. On the contrary, in the official documents upon this table, both the quantity of tea sold in the periods referred to in these corrected statements of Mr. Melvill, and the amount of sale proceeds, are widely different from the quantities and sums he has adopted ; I have therefore a right to conclude that these items are estimated or arbitrary insertions. In respect to freight and demurrage, I have not the same means of tracing these items through all the different pe- riods contained in the four corrected statements of Mr. Melvill ; but I find that it does not agree with one period in which there is an exact official ac- count of the China freight, and that this differs very materially from the amount given by Mr. Melvill ; whence I can only infer that the whole of these 698 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 13 May 1830. these items for freight and demurrage in his four corrected statements are ~ " likewise arbitrary insertions. In the corrected statement for 18'i7-8 by Mr. B.Etckards,Esg. jy/jgiyjn^ l-,e states, for example, the freight and demurrage at £550,866, where- as in the official documents before referred to, or No. of the •' accounts and papers delivered to the Committee, 1830," where the freight upon the outward trade to China and the trade to the colonial possessions at the Cape of Good Hope and North America is separated from the homeward freight from China to England, this latter freight is there stated, for 1827-8, at £647,319. 5260. Have you any other means of comparing the charges introduced by Mr. Melvill for freight in the other statements, to ascertain how flu- the same variation exists which you have shown in the single official document you have ? — I have no other official documents for the periods given in the four corrected statements. 5261. What observations have you to make on the other corrected state- ments? — The other charges contained in Mr. Melvill's corrected statements are as follows : viz. £82,114' for Canton salaries; £173,520 for charges in England ; £236,287 for interest, and £58,654 for insurance ; making a total of £550,575. On these items I have to observe, it is not a little remarkable that these charges are precisely the same in every one of Mr. Melvill's corrected statements, although they are for four different and distinct periods, viz. 1814-15, 1820-21, 1827-28, and an average of fourteen years. Now it is quite impossible that those charges could have been the same in each of those periods ; on the contrary, we know from official documents upon the table, that the charges vary constantly from year to year. The insertion, therefore, of the same charges in every one of the corrected statements must unquestionably be incorrect ; they cannot be otherwise. 5262. Have you the means of showing the difference between the actual charges for those four items by the official documents before this Committee, and that account given in by Mr. Melvill r — I have for the year 1827-8, and will give it in in a Statement I have prepared for that purpose ; meanwhile I would remark, upon the circumstance of those charges being invariably the same throughout the whole of Mr. Melvill's corrected statements, that they absolutely invalidate the whole. They are not, and cannot be, those correct Statements of the Company's China trade which it was reasonable to expect would, on such an occasion as this, have been furnished from the India-House. There are, however, other objections taken by Mr. Melvill to my Statements, which I should like to explain ; and first, with regard to the interest, which is £236,287, in the year 1820-21. Considering that this is a Statement of profit or loss on a particular adventure or branch of trade, and drawn out for no other purpose than to ascertain whether there was a sufficiency of net profit to pay the interest upon the home bond debt, and the dividends upon stock, I maintain that the charge of interest is a fair item to be introduced into that statement. In the first place my position is, that SELECT COxMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 699 that the whole of tlic money included in the prime cost, viz. £1,874,810, is 1'3 May 1830. money borrowed from the revenues of India. Tiie Company have no other /""~/~ /• capital to trade with. They are supplied entirely with funds from the ' ^' '"'^ *' ^' revenues of India. I believe the revenues of India to be the sole support of their commerce, without which they could not have existed so long as they have done as a commercial body. I have a number of documents to prove this fact, which in due time I may perhaps be called upon to prodLice ; but in the mean time I would only advert to one circumstance, whicli hap- pened in the year 18iy, when Mr. Cartwright, the late Accountant-general of the East-India Company, was examined before the Select Committee of the House of Commons, of which I was then a member. Mr. Cartwriglit, upon that occasion, was asked a question with regard to the Company's capital ; and his answer was simply this : " Capital, Sir ; [ have been forty years in the Company's service, and I never could hud out that tliey had any capital at ail." There are gentlemen now alive who were present at this Committee, and well recollect his, Mr. Cartwright's, answer. It was modified afterwards, in consequence of some discussion that took place at the Committee, one of the Directors being present, and rather displeased with Mr. Cartwright for giving sucii .^n answer, and he was allowed upon application to alter it. 1 am then justified, I think, in saying, that if this money is borrowed from the revenues of India, and which I am confident is the case, interest thereon is fairly debitable to this account. It appears to me, indeed, that a larger sum of interest than the amount here specified should be carried to the debit of this adventure; for I observe in one of the examinati(jn of Mr. Melviil, that he states that interest upon this account is only calculated for eighteen months. The interest, however, fairly chargeable, upon mercantile principles, in this Statement, ought to be nearer three years and a half; and therefore, if it was taken at three years, it would be double its present amount. As this, however, is the amount given in upon official authority, we shall take it at £236,^i87. It may be as well to explain my reason for saying that three years at least ouglit to be, upon mercantile principles, included in that account. Mr. Melviil admits in his examinations, answer 1298, that, according to " ordinary usage, as respects interest being included in the invoice charges with the Parliamentary enact- ment, the upset price of the tea should include interest from the time of the first expenditure to the time when the sale proceeds of the tea are realized." This is a fair principle for calculating interest. According to this principle, I would beg leave to explain to the Committee that the largest portion of this sum of prime cost being furnished in goods from England and from India, is supplied in the following manner : There is a certain quantity of goods pur- chased in England, in all probability two or three months before they are embarked on board the Company's ships. These ships sail, say in the month of January. Those that proceed by the way of India go to receive cargoes of cotton, which are also provided about the same time as the English goods are. They all arrive in China in the autumn of that year. They are despatched from 4 U China 700 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS. 13 May 1830. China in or about December laden with tea, and arrive in this country in May or June of the following year. We have liere a lapse of one year and a R.Richards, Esq. j^^|j-. ^^^j ^^ ^.j^^ cargoes brought home, according to Mr. Melvill's own admission, remain in warehouse, upon an average, twenty months, and are then sold at two or three months' prompt, there is therefore a period of about three years and a half between the time of the first advance of the money for til e purchase of those goods and the time when the sale proceeds of the teas are realized. On these grounds I infer that a larger sum of interest ought to be included in this account than is here inserted, for this is avow- edly no more than eighteen months' interest upon sums advanced to make up what is called the prime cost. With regard to the insurance, the next item in this account, Mr. Melvill takes credit in his corrected Statements (after debiting the account with the premium, or £58,654) for £44,593, as saved by them (the Company) in the mode of effecting their insurance. Now it is very possible that they may have saved this amount in the mode of effecting their insurance, by being their own underwriters. If they have done so, I still say that this credit item has no business here. Upon mer- cantile principles, it ought to be credited in their underwriting account and nowhere else. On the other hand, the charge for insurance, being three per cent, upon the value insured, is a regular mercantile charge in all invoices and accounts of this nature : it is a sum wliich the merchant either pays to another or to himself for the risk he runs in regard to the capital employed. If he is his own underwriter, he must keep a regular account of such transactions, and whatever he gains or loses must be carried to the debit or the credit of the underwriting account, and nowhere else. It may finally be remarked, with reference to these credits, termed "amount of interest earned on the Company's own capital," of £236,287, and the " amount saved by them in the mode of effecting their insurance, £44,593," that these also, in like manner with the charges, are carried at the same unvarying amounts through every one of the corrected Statements for the four separate periods. Nothing therefore can be clearer, in my opinion, than that such insertions as these completely invalidate the whole of those Statements. SIXTH REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS ON THE AFFAIRS OF THE EAST-INDIA COMPANY. 1830. LIST OF WITNESSES. Lun^, 17' die Maij 1830. Robert Richards, Esq. - - - - - - - - - p. 702 Jovis, 20° die Maij 1830. Robert Richards, Esq. 7^0 Mr. James Layton 7^5 William James Thompson, Esq. 737 Lunse, 24° die Maij 1830. Patrick Kellij, LL.D. - - 742 Jovis, 3° die Junij 1830. Mr. John Tnieloch, and Mr. William Wybroxo .... 744 Joshua Bates, Esq. - 748 SIXTH REPORT THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire, into the present State of the Affairs of the East-India Company, and into the Trade between Great Britain, the East-Indies, and China ; and to report their Observations thereupon to the House ; and who were empowered to report the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them from time to time, to the House : — HAVE made a further Progress in the matters to them referred and examined several other Witnesses ; the Minutes of whose Evidence they have agreed to report to the House up to the 3d day of this instant June, inclusive. 3^ June 1830. 4X MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Limee, 17° Maij 1830. William Ward, Esq. in the Chair. ROBERT RICKARDS, Esq., again called in, and examined. 17 May 1830. 5263. You have stated that you consider that the trade is carried on by means of the territorial revenue of India? — I conclude it is, from an exami- R. likkards, Esq. ^^^j^^ ^^ ^^^^ ^gj^j^j documents before the public. 5264. Are you aware that money to the amount of £3,000,000 sterling per annum is paid in this country to the account of territorial charges ? — Latterly it has amounted, I believe, to about £3,000,000 sterling ; but not to so much in previous years. 5265. Are you able to say from what source those funds are derived that form those £3,000,000 ? — It appears to me that they are derived from the surplus revenue to India, and remitted to this country in goods from India and China. 5266. Must it not depend upon whether there is a profit upon those goods ; whether there is any source from which that territorial revenue can be defrayed? — As regards the result of the trade, it would appear from the official documents which I have had an opportunity of examining, and now on the table of this Committee, that the trade with India is attended with loss, and the trade with China with a small profit. 5267. Supposing the goods that are sent from India in any one year to defray those territorial ciiarges, in what manner are the territorial cliarges of the next year defrayed ? — In the same way, from goods purchased in India and in China, and remitted to this country for sale. 5268. Then you are not able to point out any other source from which those territorial charges paid in this country are defruyeil but what you have stated ? — I cannot, fiom any of the printed official documents I have seen. 5269. Do you consider the trade to be a losing one? — lam led to that conclusion from the examination of the official documents. 5270. From what period do you consider that trade to be a losing trade ? SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 703 — I have in my possession, but not liere, the official statements laid before ^^ ^^^ 1830. parliament by the Court of Directors for about thirty-five or thirty-six years; « JUckards Esu and from these statements I can only infer that the trade has been a losing one throughout at least the whole of tiiat period. 5271. You say the profits on the China trade are small ? — According to my view of the documents, there would seem to be a small profit on the China trade, but not after paying dividends and interests on home bond-debt. 5272. And yet you say that this payment of £3,000,000 a year is made from the proceeds of that trade ? — From the proceeds of the sale of goods for which the revenues of India appear to me to have furnished funds. 5273. But still it is through the medium of that trade only that those terri- torial charges are destroyed ? — From the sale proceeds of the goods, not from the profit. 5274. Then you still persist in the opinion that the territory supports the trade ? — I do. 5275. Would your opinion remain unaltered if it were shown to you that Lord Melville, Mr. Canning, Mr. Bathurst, Mr. Williams Wynn, and Lord Ellenborough, in their offices severally, as Presidents of the India Board ; that the Marquis of Hastings, Lord Amherst, and Lord William Bentinck, as Governors-general ; that the several Chairmen, Court of Directors of the East- India Company ; and that all the accountants of the India Board, of the Ben- gal government, and of the Company, totally differ from you in that conclu- sion, and unite in agreeing that since the accounts were separated the territory has derived resources and aid from the trade? — The question, I admit, con- tains a host of most respectable authorities against the conclusion I have drawn, but opinions on either side do not amount to proof J'he real truth, whether there be a gain or a loss on the Company's trade, whether the territories have supported the commerce, or the commerce supported the territory, must depend upon the result of figures ; that is, of figured statements so prepared as to satisfy merchants and the public at large of the alleged fact. I mean to say that no satisfactory conclusion can be drawn upon this head from any of J the official documents I have seen in print ; I refer, therefore, entirely to these official documents, without meaning to impugn the opinions of the gentlemen whose names are quoted in the question, for whom, on the contrary, I enter- tain the highest degree of respect. 5276. If these documents never satisfied the public, how comes it that the successive officers who have been named should have still persisted in their opinion, in contradiction to yours ? — I am not responsible for their opinions ; neither do I mean, in stating to the Committee the grounds of my own opinion, to insist upon it that 1 am absolutely right ; 1 merely say that I have formed this opinion upon the official documents which have been laid before parliament. If further statements can be produced to induce me to alter that opinion, I shall be most ready to acknowledge it. 4X2 5277. But 704 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 17 May 1830. 5277' But for the present you remain of tlie same opinion you have ~ " expressed? — I must remain of that opinion as long as the documents now Ji./{irkarcfs,Esf). j^gf^i-g ji,g pubhc are the only ones which I am enabled to refer to. 5278. You say that the documents are unsatisfactory ? — The documents, in my opinion, do not establish the fact of the commerce of the East-India Company being so profitable as to aid the revenues, but the reverse. 5279- Have you any satisfactory document upon which to come to tiie opposite conclusion ? — t would not assert this opinion so roundly as I do witliout having documents to support it ; but 1 have not those documents at hand, not expecting to be examined to this particular point. 5280. Are they official documents? — They are, all of them. 5281. Then are the official documents satisfactory to bring you to the con- clusion you come to ? — They have led me to that conclusion. 5282. Those official documents are of course known to all the persons whose names have just been mentioned? — They are before the pubhc. 5283. Do you not think that in a point of so much importance as that of correctly ascertaining tlie state of tlie Company's affairs, it wouhl be more desirable that this Committee should be guided by documents framed expressly for such a purpose from official sources, than by statements com- piled from different accounts, which, however correct in themselves, from being framed for different purposes, may not admit of their being combined into a general result by persons not conversant with the Company's mode of keeping accounts ? — A correct and comprehensive view of the real state of the Company's affiiii s, prepared on mercantile principles, and officially certi- fied, is the very thing that is now wanting, and ought, as I think, to be pro- duced. Meanwhile I can only add, that I have formed no opinion, nor drawn any conclusion as to the territory supporting commerce, except from the official documents I iiave seen in print. Those official documents are not now at hand, from my not expecting to be examined upon this particular point ; but I shall be ready to give all the information in my power as to the grounds upon which my present opinions are founded, whenever I am called upon for that pur])ose. 5284'. And from these official documents you have formed your opinion that the territory supports the trade? — Yes. 5285. Do you conceive that you iiave seen official documents proving that the territory has protluced a surplus competent to defray all the charges which l)ave been paid in England on account of the trade? — That is my conclusion, that the snr])his revenue in India has been sufficient, and more than sufficient, to pay all tlie charges in England. 5286. And that that appears from the official documents you have seen ? — Yes. 52S7. When you say that the territory has produced a surplus which has supported the trade, ilo you exclude from your estimate the territorial charges SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 705 charges arising from a state of actual war, and confine yourself to what you IT May 1830. consider the ordinary revenues and charges of a time of peace ? — The official documents which I have examined appear to me to include all the charges of ■^' iiif'^*"'''*? ''-">'? the periods of war ; and it is on this presumption that I say there is still a surplus revenue exhibited on the face of the accounts. 5288. How do you account for the accumulation of a large debt? — That would lead to a very long discussion, which I am prepared to enter into, but I have not the documents at hand to support the opinions I should give upon that subject ; and, with deference to the Committee, I think it had better be postponed till these documents can be regularly laid before them. 5289. Can you refer to the particular documents upon which you form your opinion that the trade is supported by the territory ? — The principal documents that I refer to are the annual accounts of the state of the revenues, and other matters, which are laid by the Court of Directors before the House of Commons annually. 5290. For how long back ? — I think I have got them in my possession for about thirty-five or thirty-six years back. 5291. Do you mean to say that those accounts exhibit annually a surplus revenue sufficient to pay the charges of the trade ? — They do, to my judgment. 5292. Including all the expenses of war? — Including the expenses of all the wars the Company have been engaged in during that period, presum- ing always, as I have said before, that those expenses are included as they appear, and ought to be, under the head of " charges" in the accounts alluded to. 5293. Then you conclude that the large debt contracted by the Company has arisen entirely from losses on trade, and would not have arisen from any transactions as sovereigns of India ? — If my opinion is correct as to the state of the revenue accounts, there is no other inference to be drawn in respect to the accumulation of debt. 5294. What does the surplus of the territorial revenue amount to, in your estimation, during the last fourteen years? — I could not state that without having my papers by me. 5295. Can you, by reference to the papers presented by His Majesty's command to this Committee, state what has been the advance by the terri- tory to the commerce in India, and what have been the payments in England for the territory by the Company for the year 181-i ? — In No. 13 of the Papers relating to the Finances of India and the Trade of India and China, presented in February 1830, the total amount of advances made at the several presi- dencies and settlements of India for the purposes of commerce in so far as regards the purchase of investments for F.ui ope from the year 1814-15 to 1826-7 inclusive, is £30,545,069, of which £24,338,050 are stated to have been issued in repayment of territorial charges defrayed in England. In No. 706 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 17 May 1830. No. 2 of the same papers, being an account of the revenues and charges of — — India, the total of the territorial charges paid in England are stated to be JR. Rir hards. Esq, included, and for the period here referred to amount to £20,893,206. It appears, therefore, from this account, that a balance of £3,4'44,844' would be due to the territory ; whereas in the Account No. 25 of the same papers, the territory is debited in the sum of £8,142,103. These are discrepancies in the official accounts before the public, which can only be reconciled by the officers of the India- House. There are no explanations given by which a private individual inspecting these accounts can possibly effect this recon- cilement. 5296. Are the Committee to understand that Accounts No. 13 and No. 2, which you have quoted, support the view you have taken, that only twenty £20,893,206. millions had been advanced in that time on account of territorial charges in England ? — This is certainly one fact in corroboration of the view I have taken. 5297. Will you state to the Committee what appears by these documents to have been advanced by the territory to commerce in the same period? — The sum total advanced for the purposes of commerce is thirty millions, of which twenty-four millions are stated to have been applied to the repayment of territorial charges defrayed in England. 5298. Does it not further appear in a subsequent column that £6,207,019 were issued from commercial funds in India? — It does ; and I was going to add that when I was interrupted. 5299. You were understood to state that the sum of £30,545,069 was ad- vanced in India from the territory for the purposes of commerce ; the Com- mittee also understood you to have said, that out of that sum of £30,545,069 the sum of £6,207,019 was advanced to the commercial funds in India ; how do you reconcile these two answers, the one expressing that the whole sum was advanced for the territory, the other that a considerable part of it was paid for the commerce ? — I have, it is true, stated in a former answer, that I believe the commerce to be wholly supported by advances from the revenue funds ; but when I answered the question referring to this account I quoted the very words contained in the head of each column, and therefore I feel quite confident that I have quoted it correctly. 5300. Then the Committee is to understand that you dispute the correct- ness of that heading of the last column which states the sum to have been issued from the commercial funds? — The issue is here stated to have been made from commercial funds, and I have no doubt is so ; but according to my view of the Company's accounts, I should conclude that this also was ad- vanced in the first instance from the revenues. 5301. Then, in fact, you do not speak now so much from the accounts themselves as from the correction which you conceive your knowledge has enabled you to make of those accounts? — I speak from both. 5302. Is SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 707 5302. Is it your opinion, then, that what are stated in this heading to be 11 May J83(). commercial funds are in point of fact, when examined into, funds derived from the territorial revenue ? — In consistency with the answer that I have ''-"«<'«'"■«''» '-^y- given in the early part of the examination of to-day, I conceive these com- mercial funds to have been also originally derived from the revenues. With the funds thus derived goods are purchased in India, and consigned to this country. Out of the proceeds other goods are returned to India for sale, and constitute there also a head of commercial funds. In this way, if my view of the state of the Company's accounts is correct, these £6,207,019 are also in the first instance derived from territorial sources. 5303. Then you conceive that the surplus revenue has been competent to supply those advances to the commercial funds? — That and the debt to- gether. This sum therefore of £6,207,019 stands upon the explanation I have just now given. 5304. Upon what grounds more particularly do you form the opinion that these £6,207,019, which have been considered by the Company and by the Board of Control to have consisted of commercial funds, has in fact consist- ed of territorial funds ? — 1 have explained my reasons for entertaining that opinion very fully in the evidence I have just given. 5305. You have stated that the territorial charges paid in England since the charter amount to about £20,000,000, according to the account No. 2, and you conceive that that column of the account, gives you the whole of the deficiency of the revenue in India ? — It seems to be stated here as the sum of the territorial charges paid in England. 5306. Are you not aware that in the latter years of that period there was also a deficiency in India, appearing on the face of the accounts, to the amount of above four millions and one half, under the head of ♦' Remaining Indian surplus charge ?" — I have not that account before me ; but I daresay the deficiency is so stated in the oflScial accounts laid before Parliament as they are now prepared. 5307. Is not that sum to be added to the total amount of the deficiency of the revenues of India? — In the statement I shall lay before this Com- mittee, to support the view I liave taken of the Company's financial accounts, I shall include that £4,000,000, and every other deficiency. My opinion is, that tiiere is no deficiency upon the whole ; that there must be a surplus, if the printed official accounts are correct. 1 rest my opinion entirely upon them 530S. Are you aware that a sum of nearly £5,000,000 has been applied as part of the surplus commercial profits to the payment of the territorial debt since the charter ? — I have seen that sum stated as a memorandum at the foot of one of the official documents in this collection of papers ; but I cannot find out from this, or from any other official document contained in this col- lection, whence that commercial profit arises. 5309. Then 708 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 17 May 1830. 5309- Then you conceive that as it cannot be proved to have come from — — commerce, it must come from the territory? — It is impossible to tell from 7?. Rickards,Esq. j[^jg account wliere it comes from. 5310. Does the account of the territorial revenue and charge show a capacity not only to defray all the expenses in England ; but this additional sum of £5,000,000 in this circuitous way, returns through commerce?—! think the territorial account, when fairly analyzed, will exhibit a very large surplus. 5311. Do you mean to imply that some heads, either of revenue or charge, are improperly stated in the account No. 2? — I am sure that if I was to give my view of the case here, without having my papers at hand, and official papers to refer to, I should only lead the Committee into a very troublesome discussion, and occupy their time, in all probability, unneces- sarily. 5312. Does it not appear in account No. 2 that the whole of the interest on the India debt is charged separately from the territorial charges paid in India ? — It does. 5313. Is not a part of the interest on the India debt paid annually in England out of the commercial funds ; and ought not therefore the interest so paid to be added to the territorial charges which are to be levied in India for advances made in England ?— Certainly, if the debt itself is territorial. 5314. If, therefore, the interest so paid be added to other charges, may not the territorial charges paid in England during the period since 1814 exceed the sum of £24,338,050, which is stated in No. 13 to have been repaid in India for advances in England ? — The official accounts will show that. I cannot state it from a cursory view of these accounts. I cannot tell from these accounts whether any portion of the interest on the debt is included in the territorial charges paid in England ; but if, after paying the whole interest on the bond debt, as included in that column, and after paying the whole of the territorial charges included in the other column, there shall still appear to be a surplus revenue, it appears to me to be quite indifferent whetlier, as regards the ultimate result, any portion of that interest on debt be paid in this country or in India. 5315. If you will refer to answer 3454« in page 412, in your second State- ment, you will see that you have assumed that the average price at which tea could be supplied by the private merchant is Is. 6d. a pound, including a profit of 18 per cent, to the merchant ; does that include interest for the capital employed, as there does not appear to be any included ? — No, it does not include interest, because the money is supposed to be raised by bills, in which case no interest would be chargeable ; the interest would be included in the rate of the exchange. 5316. If it is supposed to be raised by bills, would you assume that the tea should be sold as soon as the bills became due?— The tea imported into this SELECT COMMITTEE oi- the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 709 this country by private merchants would in all probability be sold either 17 M:iv 1830. before the bills fell due, or much about that time, the bills being supposed to be drawn at six months' sight. It.lhrkurd,^ Esq. 5317. Are you not aware that the Commutation Act, by requiring a stock to be kept on hand, precludes the selling of" tea before its arrival? — It pre- cludes the Company, but it would not, on the supposition I have assumed in those statements, preclude individuals from doing it. 5318. ,\t what rate do you value a dollar in the computation of \s.Qd. per pound ; do you not value it at 4.?.? — I have in this statement valued it at 45. 5319. Supposing the dollar were 45. 6rf., would not the profit be greatly reduced ? — I have stated already that the effect of it would be to reduce the profit, and not to affect the sale price in this country ; but as the profit is a very ample one, viz. 18 percent., there is abundant room for reduction from any variation that might take place in the rate of exciiange, and still leave the merchant importer an adequate return for the employment of his capital. 5320. If the dollar were at 5s. 6d. or 5s. 9d. or C5., would there not be a loss? — Certainly; but I cannot contemplate the possibility of the exchange rising to 5s. 6d. or i^s. per dollar, in the event of a perfectly free trade being opened to China. 53SJ1. Are you not aware that it is stated in the official documents before this Committee, that in some of the years since 1814 the dollar has, in actual transactions, been exchanged for even (is. ? — I believe it has been quoted at that rate ; but the exchange between Canton and Kngland during the period of the Company's monopoly is no guide for concluding what the rate of exchange would be under ilie circumstances of a free trade. We have had a remarkable instance of that in respect to Indian exchanges. When the Company had a close monopoly of the trade to India, our rate of exciiange was then as arbitrary at Calcutta as it is now at Canton ; the rate of exchange then was within my recollection as high as 25. yd. the sicca rupee, and very shortly alter the trade was thrown open, and began to feel the operation of the adventures of private merchants in India and in England, it fell to I5. lid. and 2s. If the trade was thrown open to Canton I should anticipate that the exchange woidd be regulated by the same causes, and accordingly vibrate about the real par, being sometimes a little above, and sometimes below that standard, which, as regards dollars, is 45. 3d. 5322. Were not the high exchanges which you speak of, 55. and 65., and the high Indian exchanges at the same period, in consequence of the Bank of England being at that time not open for payment in specie, and that dollars were in the same proportion advanced in England? — That may have been one cause. 5323. Is it possible that the exchanges of China and India with England, 4 Y any 710 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: IT May 1830. any more than tlie exchanges between any one country and another, can vary beyond the expense of conveying the precious metals from one country Tt. Richards, Es'i. to the other ? — Certainly tliey never would, if the commercial intercourse between the two countries were free ; but under the operation of the Com- pany's monopoly in India, for example, the case was widely different. Tlie Company had adopted the exchange of 25. del. the sicca rupee for their remittances to England, to discharge interest on their loans, and for other purposes, and that had a material effect in regulating the then existing exchange ; now I consider the exchange between England and India to be operated upon by precisely the same laws which regulate it with all the countries of Europe. 5324. That is, by the charge of conveying the precious metals from one country to the other? — Certainly. 53'i5. Are you aware that an export duty was laid by the East-India Company on the exportation of treasure from India to England about the year 1811 or 1812? — I believe it was the case, but 1 cannot at this distance of time speak from recollection alone very precisely as to the amount of the duty, or the time during which it was in operation. 5326. In point of fact, do you know that the exchange continued as high as 25. 9d. till the year I8I7 or 1818, four years after the charter? — It con- tinued high until I8I7 or 1818 ; that is, until it felt the full influence of a freer trade. 5327. You have referred to the eflect upon the exchange by opening the trade with India; do you not think there is a great difference between the effect of opening the trade with India and what might be the effect of the same measure with regard to China, because in India no internal regulations exist which interfere with commerce ; whereas in Cliina internal regulations proceeding from the authorities in China would so interfere that the rate of exchange would not be so acted upon as it would be in India? — I should think tiiat the rate of exchange would be in a great measure regulated be- tween China and England, by the operations of the traders tliemselves, and that altogether independent of the restrictions that migiit be laid on by the Chinese government, more especially when I perceive that in regard to some of the most important articles of trade now with Cantoji, the restric- tions of the Chinese government are completely set at nought by the mer- chants who trade in those commodities. 5328. If your computation of \s. G,/. \)cr ])ound have reference to the whole period since 1814 and 1815, is it not clear that the private merchant who sold his tea at that price would have been lelt greatly out of pocket, in many years, v.hen, for instance, the dollar was worth (i.*. ; and if yoiu* compnation be not intended to embrace the whole period, then do you not perceive that in your second statement, in answer 3 i5 la, in page 412, you have contrasttd your assinned price of \s. 6d. with the ('ompany's average j)rice of the whole period, as stated by you in the first line of the statement in page 412, and consequently that the comparison which you iiave made must be fallacious in SELECT COMMITTEE of tiik HOUSE OF COMMONS. 7II in its results? — My comparison under the head " Secondly," with tlie Com- ^"^ May 1830. pany's prices, is introduced incidentally. The actual comparison whicii I „ T . /,• , have rested upon is the " first " comparison, wherein the rate of exchange '^ "' ^' in Ciiiiia, and the sale price of the Company in this country, are taken for one and tlie same period. When I was examined upon this subject on Thursday, I observed that I really could not exactly comprehend the exact connection that was endeavoured to be established between the rate of ex- change in China and tlie sale price in this country, because these two things are governed by very distinct causes. If a private merchant cannot get Is. 6(1. for his tea in this country, he must take less, or else hold the com- modity. The sale price in tiiis country will always be governed by the state of demand and supply. As to the rate of exchange in China, wiien it is quoted at 6s., I take that to be a perfectly arbitrary rate of exchange ; the exchanges quoted in private letters from Canton are very frequently stated to be perfectly nominal. There is, in fact, no rate of exchange in China regulated by the same rules that govern tlie rate of exchange between the different countries in Europe ; but I do conceive, and I think it will be proved, if the trade should ever be thrown open to China, that the dollar can never rise to that amount again ; it will probably be confined within the limits of from 4. It" all the documents submitted to Parliament, and tliose which you have seen that have been submitted to this Conimitttee, of the commercial affiiirs of tiie Company, are as defective as you have stated, that no merchant can make up a satisfactory account from tiiem to show tlie actual result ami profit, and loss from their commerce, will you state what kind of accounts should be furnished to enable the Cotnmittee correctly to ascertain what has been the state of their trade? — Exactly such an account as I have just stated in a previous answer. 5376. What sort of an account do you conceive shoidd be made out ? — It should R. Rirkards, E.itj SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 725 should be such an account as a merchant would draw out to show the real 20 May 1830 result of his own affliirs. .5377. Can you give a fro forma accoimt of the manner in which the account should be kept ? — It is in possible for me to give a projbrfiui accotmt here. Neither should I think a pro forma necessary, if the accounts at the India-House are kept as mercantile hooks ought to be. From such books there can he no difficulty, 1 should think, of preparing such an account as woidd satisfy the public, containing the actual outgoings of the Company on one siile, with their receipts on the other — a fair statement, in short, of mercantile transactions, prepared in mercantile form and on mercantile principles, such as any merchants are accustomed to prepare of all bond fde. transactions. 537s. You are aware th;it by the 57th clause of the Act of 53d Geo. III. it is directed that the profits on commerce should be applied for certain purposes, the last being that all surplus should go in reduction of the prin- cipal of the debt in India. Are you able from the accounts before the Committee, to show wlietlier any siuplus has been handed over to pay terri- torial debt agreeably to the Act? — in Account No. 23 of the Papers relating to the Finances of India, page 49, there is a memorandum at the foot of that account in the following words: — " Amount set apart from surplus commercial profits for the licpiidation o'i debt subsequent to the 1st of IVIay 1814, and not deemed repayable by the territory." This, however, is but a simple memorandum or assertion ; there is nothing that I can find in these official documents to show whence that surplus commercial profits arises; and this is another of the many instances whicli constantly meet us of the defec- tive or imperfect state of these accounts. 1 obseive also, in respect to that profit so set apart, that in the year 1S24 it is stated at £4,754,903; the same sum is continued through the years 1825 and 1826, v.'hence I conclude that there could be no surplus profits, real or estimated, in those years. In the following year, ISS7, 'he anioiuit is stated at £4,758,853, being a small advance on the preceding years of £3,950, whereas in the annual accounts laid before Parliament the increase of 1827 over 1826 is stated only at £124 or £125. This ;igain is one of the many discrepancies which we find in these accounts, which may be capable of reconcilement by the officers of the India-House, but which it is impossible for an individual to account for from any explanations tiiat are here given ; and therefore it is that 1 say that those accounts, as now presented to the public, do not exhibit so satisfactory a result as the public have a rii^ht to expect. Neither can any such precise result be drawn or compiled from the imperfect information they contain. Mr. JAMES LAYTON called in, and examined. Mr J.Laytm. 5379. What is your profession ? — I am a tea-broker. 5380. It is } our business as a tea-broker to pui chase tea at the Kast-India Company's sales for the wholesale tea-dealers of this country? — Certainly. 5 A 5381. In 726 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 20 May 1830. 5381. In that business you are in the habit, at every sale of tea, of exa- mining minutely the quahties of the different parcels? — I am. Mr. J- Layton. 5330). Were you calletl upon to value some samples of teas which were brought from abroad ? — Yes. 5383. Where did you value them ?— At my own counting-house. 53841. From whom did you receive them ? — I received them from Mr. Jones ; they were sent to me ; I believe they came from the Board of Control. 5385, They were sent to your office for examination ? — They were. 5386. Did you examine them in company with any other tea-broker ? — No; by myself only. 5337. Did you give your opinion without any concert with any other person? — No; we met afterwards and compared notes, and gave a valuation of prices in conjunction with several others ; there were about a dozen more; there were many of those teas imported by the foreign companies. I look upon it that we have no such tea comes to the Company's sale, because the bulk of the teas that we have consists chiefly of the general qualities of bohea and congo tea, which form the chief consumption of this country. 5388. Did the other brokers examine them with you ? — No, each examined them separately by their own samples ; there were samples sent to ten or a dozen different houses. 5389. For the purpose of afterwards fixing on prices, did you afterwards meet together? — We met together and compared prices, and gave the result of that to the gentlemen who sent the samples. 5390. Was the result an average? — Yes, an average, as nearly as we could put it, of what they would have sold for at the Company's sales. 5391. Was there much difference of opinion between you? — There was ; in the finer sort of teas especially. 5392. Were there in the congos and boheas? — No, very little ; hardly any at all ; merely fractional parts. 5393. Were the samples of sufficient size to enable you to judge fairly of them ? — Certainly. 539I-. AVere the prices you have affixed to the teas prices which you thought similar teas would sell at at the (.'ompany's sales, or were they prices that lliey would sell at in the wholesale shops? — We have no idea what they sell at the wholesale shops, for they vary so much by \s. per pound; but we fixed it at the price at which we supposed, had they been put up by the East-India Company "at their sale, they would have reached, subject of course to the variation whether there is more or less of the finer quality. 5395. With respect to the teas of more general consumption, more par- ticularly the Congo and bohea, was the price that you estimated them at with reference to the last sale-price of the Company, or with reference to the SELECT COMMITTEE of thk HOUSE OF COMMONS. 72? the actual market-price at the time? — We were obhged to reckon tliem at the 20 May 1830. price we supposed they would sell at; there were several of those qualities of "~~ tea that the East-India Company do not import on their own account, but ' ' «//'>"• which are generally brought over by their officers, who have a private trade, as it is called, which is a liberty to biing home such and such qualities ; but we cannot answer for their qualities to compare them with the Company's teas. The East-India Company's teas are always clean teas, and well examined before they come to this coinitry, which the others are not, for their trade is by barter. In general you cannot expect an officer who goes out to bring the dollars ; but they receive so many chests of tea as they may purchase by barter. Of the price we know nothing. 5396. Were you told, when those samples were delivered to you, from whence they came ? — No ; we were summoned by Mr. Jones to come and see them at the Board of Control Office ; the number was so great it was impossible to form an opinion of them there ; each of the brokers had the samples sent, and tasted them, as well as examined them by the appearance. 5397. Were you told from what part of the world they came ? — We knew not from whence they came; the paper states them to be from the continent of Europe, but does not state from what countries. 5398. As to the teas of general consumption, particularly the bohea, Congo, the hyson, and the twankay, setting aside any of the teas of which little is imported, were they teas of the qualities used for general consump- tion, and, upon the whole, of good fair quality ?— Except the twankay tea, I think they were ; that was inferior to what the Company usually have. The bohea tea was rather inferior, to the extent of !(/. or l^d. per pound ; but that is a tea not used, or very rarely, in London ; that goes generally into the country, where they are obliged to sell it at a lower price, particularly to the maiuifacturers. 5399. Was the congo a fair quality ? — It was not so clean as the Company's teas. .■5400. What do you mean by not so clean as the Company's teas? — It had a particular taste, showing that it was not altogether so well selected. 5401. Some of the Congo is put as high as 9s. 6d. a pound; have you much of the Company's congo that sells at so high a price? — There is some of the Company's congo that sells as high as 3*. 5402. Is the quality put here at 23. 6d. a pound not a good quality ? — It is a good quality of tea valuetl at 25. 6d. a pound ; but wherever samples have been taken, and have come from a distance, they depreciate, and also from the tea being in paper. 5403. Is it your opinion that the samples have not quite so fair a chance as if they had been drawn fresh froui tlie chests in the Company's warehouses? — Decidedly not. 5404. Did the manner of sending tliem put them to some disadvantage ? — Yes, particularly in the smell, which is a great thing we go by, as well as 5A2 ' taste. 728 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 20 May 1830. taste. Many of those that are called congo were a souchong kind of tea, ,, , r . which, by the names tiieygave them, they would not bear with ours. Mr. ,1. Laijton. •' ■ ° ' -^ 5405. Were the green teas that came from New York of a good quality ? — I do not know from whence they came, only the samples were taken from which we were to form our opinion. 5406. Were the green teas of a fair quah'ty ? — Some of them were, and some were very indifferent. 5407. How long had those samples been taken out of the chest before you saw them ? — That I cannot say ; I never saw the chests nor the packages. 5408. The prices of your valuation are of course wliat are called the short prices, that is, without the tluty ? — Yes, because we always buy and sell by the short price. 5409. Upon the whole, were the congos and boheas of a quality that would find ready sale in this country ? — Yes, tliey were sufficiently fine for sale ; any tea that is clean and decent will always find a sale ; for what is not sold in London the dealers will send to manufacturing places, and if the price is but congenial they will take anything, if it really is tea. 5410. Do you consider that the tea which is sold at the Company's sales is much adulterated at the tea-dealers' shops in London ? — Not in London ; I do not think there is any adulteration in tea ; they mix the boliea, which sells at the Company's sales at about \s.5d. to \s. 6d., with congo teas, because the duty is so heavy the people in the country cannot afibrd to give it. It is the fasliion now to have every thing at a low price, and that pervades every thing, on the supposition, I suppose, that the people get too much profit ; but they drink such lea there as I would not drink. 541L Did you ever look at the quality of tea sold in country towns and villages? — Yes. 541'2. Do you consider it very much atiulterated? — I consider it so much inferior, that if I go out I always liketo taki m y tea with me ; if I were going out of town, I mean. 5413. Is the adulteration there merely a mixture of inferior teas, or is it that some ingredients are mixetl which are not teas at all ? — 1 really cannot tell what it is composed of, and 1 defy any person to say what it consists of; it is like the coffee, which is sometimes mixed with what is, I siip])ose, ground beans. 5411. If a mixed sample of tea were presented to you, you could point out the jjortiun of the different qualities, could you not ? — That is rather difficult ; 1 could no more tell than I could as to a |)ipe of wine, whether it was all of the ri LL.D. jy,a(j(3 ^f j-j^g prices of tea which have been laid before that Committee ? — I have. 55Ci5. Can V. Kelly, LL.D. SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 743 5565. Can you furnish this Committee with a copy of the same ? — I can ; 24 May 1830. but the calculations are not quite ready. 5566. Will you have the goodness to explain, by a note on the paper, whether the duty is deducted or included in the prices, and on what principle the rates of exchange between the foreign and the British are computed ? — I will. 5567. You are the author of the Universal Cambist, are you not? — I am. 5568. When the Court of Directors ordered standard weights from dif- ferent parts of India to be sent to you, in order to complete that work, did you receive any standards from China? — No, nor could I learn that any had been ever received in this country. 5569. Will you state on what data you have made the calculations which appear respecting the weights of China in your Cambist?— From written authorities, chiefly German, French, and English, and tiieir statements were found to agree with great exactness ; but I have had a further corroboration of their accuracy by means of attested standards, which have been lately transmitted to England by Mr. Reeves, the East-India Company's Tea Inspector at Canton, and they are now in the possession of Mr. Goodhall, the Superintendent of the Company's tea warehouses in London. 5570. Then what do you now consider the real weights of China ; and explain to the Committee how they are divided? — The tale is generally considered the unit, I6 of which make the catty, and iOU catties the pecul. The tale is subdivided into 10 mace, 100 candareens, and 1,000 cash ; and according to recent experiments, verified at the London Mint, it equals 580 grains troy, which is only one-tifth of a grain more than the statement in the Cambist. The catty and pecul are of course in proportion ; but there is a dis- crepancy in commercial practice in the computation of the pecul, which ought to be noticed. It is reckoned to weigh 133^ lbs. avoirdupois, but its true weight is 132 lbs. 9 oz. It is stated in old books at the India-House to weigli 13^2| lbs., and this addition of | lb. has no doubt been adopted for the convenience of calculation ; for tlius 3 peculs are reckoned to make 400 lbs. ; 3 catties, 4 lbs. ; and 3 tales 4 ounces avoirdupois. It may like- wise diminish labour to observe that 24 tales answer exactly to 29 ounces troy. 5571. How are accounts kept in China ?~In tales of 10 mace, 100 can- dareens, and 1,000 cash. 5572. What are the coins of China ? — I believe they have no national coins, except cash, which are of base metal, and of variable value. Foreign coins, however, occasionally circulate, especially Spanish dollars, which are sometimes cut into small proportions for change. The tales, mace, and candareens are of course monies of account, and vary in their value accord- ing to ciicumstances. 5573. What is the sterling value of a tale weight of silver in British silver 5 C 2 in 744 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 24. May 1880. in dollar silver, and in pure silver? — The tale weight of British standard ' ~ silver at 5s. 0,(1. per oz. is worth 74t%6?. sterling, and of dollar silver 72toC?. *^ **' ' sterling. The same weight of pure silver is worth 80fu^u<^. sterling, which is nearly the estimated value of the money tale in the books of the East-India Company, and was probably the origin of such valuation. 5574. What is the present value of the rupees of Calcutta, Madras, and Bombay, at 5s. Qd. per oz. British standard r — The sicca rupee of Calcutta is worth 24t'cmjii a : WWUOA LOS .*NCri^r« LiiU{ARY -,...-..» Hill mil iiiii mil III I inn mil lillJiliiiL D 000 362 342 8 HF 486 E6G7 1830a v.l « MOT R£W?0'^^ oi cf^^ DO NOT «- , ' ""^3 BOOK CARD ^. ^^.\\]\^,^^yO/: — ri zJ C? V, UniversitV Reseorch LibrcV J. J' .• ./. /t. "^I ^ miL\ \