ETURNED SOLDIERS -^ of the Special Committee appointed to consider, inquire into and report upon the Reception, Treatment, Care, Training and Re-Education of the Wounded, Disabled and Convalescent who have served in the Canadian Expeditionary Forces, and the provision of Employment for those who have been Honour- ably Discharged, and the Training and Re-Education of those so discharged who are unable to engage in their former occupation. ■^ Comprising the Evidence taken and Statements submitted in connection therewith, February 7th to July 17th, 1917 OTTAWA J. DE LABROQUERIE TACH6 PRINTER TO THE KINGS MOST EXCELLENT MAJESTY RETURNED SOLDIERS s^ Proceedings of the Special Committee appointed to consider, inquire into and report upon the Reception, Treatment, Care, Training and Re-Education of the Wounded, Disabled and Convalescent who have served in the Canadian Expeditionary Forces, and the provision of Employment for those who have been Honour- ably Discharged, and the Training and Re-Education of those so discharged who are unable to engage in their former occupation. J)^ C :)rising the Evidence taken and Statements submitted in connection therewith, February 7th to July 17th, 1917 OTTAWA J. DE LABROQUERIE TACHfi PRINTER TO THE KING'S MOST EXCELLENT MAJESTY 1917 ;277— A / Cy^Cj^c---'^'^ TABLE OF CONTENTS. Paoe. Alphabetical List of Witnesses examined I'ur evidence xil Order of Reference xiv Preliminary and Second Reports xvii Minutes of Proceedings of Committee, 1st Meeting 5 Chairman addresses the Committee. 2nd Meeting 6 Minutes of Evidence 9 Subjects of Inquiry and Witnesses — Amar System of Functional Training and Re-education: — Commends the system (Major Anderson), 1208. — System adopted for maimed soldiers and its introduction in England (Col. Mignault), 1209. — Three Canadians sent by the Military Hospitals Commission to Paris to investigate the system (Mr. Knight), 1261. ARTIFICIAL Limbs and Orthopaedic Institutes : — Toronto, Winnipeg and Montreal to be Ortho- paedic centres. — Accumulation of maimed men compels the establishment of an institute at once (Col. Thompson), 33, 41-42. — Montreal men forwarded to Toronto to be fitted (Captain Grey), 570. Difficulty in getting proper help (Mr. LeOras), 681. Complaint set forth re Mr. Laidlaw's (Winnipeg) case and imperfect limb (Mr. Law), 853. Injus- tice to western men to have to come to Toronto for artificial limbs (Sergt. -Major Guil- foyle), 904. Output of limVjs at Toronto and arrangements planned at various centres in Canada to provide limbs (Mr. Armstrong), 1005-7. Standardize the best limb or appli- ance and permit no others to be given (Major Todd), 1017. Army Medical Corps, Canadian, Re Medical Examinations and Services in connection with members of the Canadian Bxpeditionary Force: — Fotherinyham, Surgeon General, J. T., Director of Medical Services — Invalids. The proper authority to take over the military patients, so long as they remain soldiers, is the military organization that has been pro- vided by the Militia Department — Reads Article 10 of the Geneva Convention of 1906. To hand over sick and wounded soldiers to a civilian organization is a completely new idea. An alternative scheme proposed, 1223-1247. Grey, Captain H. S. Dunstan, Medical Officer in charge of Grey Nuns Convalescent Home, 567-75. Jones, Surgeon-General G. C. — Hospital cases in England sent to Canada — Procedure overseas regarding pay and allow- ances, 1058-60, 1114-16. Marlow, Col. F. W., Assistant Director Medical Services (A.D. M.S.) in Military District No. 2, — Inspection of, and Report on, the Medical Services of the whole of Canada in respect of the Canadian Expeditionary Forces (C.E.F.), 167-230. Letter re disposal of Tuberculous Invalids, 217. Memo, re Tuberculosis, 222. Special recommendations re Medical Service, — Invalids, 228. Accommodation in Convalescent Hospitals and necessity of extending same — Out-patients system, 724-42. Surgical cases, where treated, 742. Arrangement for treatment of tuberculous cases at Muskoka and Gravenhurst hospitals, 743. Cablegrams re disabled soldiers returned to Canada, 753. Proportion of medically unfit who enlisted and eventually rejected, 762. Documentfl ordered filed, 769. McTaggart, Major D. D., Medical Officer in charge of Montreal Khaki League — Conflict of authority between Medical Officer and Officer Commanding the Unit, 581. Munn, Major F. J., Medical Officer in charge of Toronto M. H. C. Command (D Unit) — Prtsont accommodation completely used up with the exception of 120 beds- - Number of out-patients, 515 cases — Holds advanced views on the subject of tuberculosis — Blue print of town plan for a tubercular colony filed, 668-81. Patch, Lt.-Col. F. S., Assistant Director Medical Services (A.D.M.S.) in charge of No. 4 M.D., — States a number of factors which are responsible for the rejection of men — The matter of defin- ing medical responsibility for returned soldiers — Soldiers under treatment — S>T>hilitic cases, 403-417. Potter, Colonel J. L., Acting Director General Medical Service, — Describes military hospitals under the jurisdiction of the Militia Department, 65-67. Number of venereal cases for first ten months, 68, 268. Medical examinations, 69-76. Instructions re m.edical examinations of recruits in Canada, 243-284. Relations of Medical Service to the Pensions Board, 78-79. See also Statistics and Records, 243-299. Assigned Pay and Separation Allowance : — See Pay and Allowances. Attestation Paper: — Sample of form re questions to be put before attestation; declaration to be made by man on attestation ; certificate of magistrate ; certificate of medical exami- nation ; certificate of Officer Commanding Unit, 211-213. Badges, Soldiers' : — Regulations relating to, and classes of soldiers to whom issued, 383. Battalion, 118th: — Court held in London presided by Colonel Marlow, 206. Beds in Military Hospitals and Convaij:scent Homes: — Approximate number of, 175-6, 271. Beds occupied and bed accommodation, 271-275. 28277— Ai iii iv TABLE OF CO\TEXTS Cablegrams : — Sir George I'erley and Canadian Government re men sent to Canada for treat- ment, 1024. Chairman of the Committee: — Election of Sir Herbert Ames, 5. Cliairman addresses the Committee, C. Presents I'relLminary Report to tlie House, April 25 (See Preliminary Report). Addresses the Great War Veterans' Association, 1193. Presents Second Report to the House, July 17. (See Preliminary and Second Report). ■Communications Received: — See Statistics and Records. Complaints, Specific, Inquired into and Ordered Investigated : — Pte. Abercromhie re pension, 482. Pte. Appleby re treatment, 474. Pte. Baldock re pay, 480, 1173. Pte. E. Ball re treatment, 888. Pie. G. Bimson re pension, 888. Pte. F. O. Brault re gratuity in lieu of pension, 887. Trooper Brotvn re pay, 485, 1172. Pte. Cahole re pension, 515. Pte. John Campbell, re treatment and pension, 857. Pte. R. H. Case re salary, 385, 390. Pte. Caty re pay and fines, 580. Pte. Colehan re pension, 514. Pte. Cooper re limb supplied unsatisfactory. 1086, 1173. Pte. J. Cunimings re pension, 856. Pte. Drew re delay of pension, 1248. Pte. F. Goocle re pension, 818. Pte. Gouch re gratuity in lieu of pension, 858. Pte. Gough re pension, 819. Sergt. Hall re employment, 1257. Pte. Hamilton re pension, 1252. Hart, H. W., re pension, 93i2, 1222. Sergt. Haynes re assigned pay, 1255. Pte. Henderson re \y\i\Aic charge, 51i5. Herbert, G. H., re pension, 889. Pte. H. Hodgson re pay and treatment, 908, 1178. Pte. F. Hyatt re gratuity, 516. Pte. Edward James re -pen- sion. 1250. Pte. Jones re pay, 536, 1168, 1172. Pte. Kidd re pension, 1249. Pte. Knevett re pension, 819. Pte. Laidlaw, re treatment and insufficient pension, 839, 840, 1174. Lance-Corporal G. L. Lajoie re discharge, 488, 1173. Lance-Corporal L. Lalicheiir re. pension, 514. Sergt.-Major Langtry re gratuity, 779, 1177. Pte. James Mo?-fin re pension, 820. Pte. Tom Martin re pension, 777. Pte. Matheson re pension, 482. Pte. McGilton re pay, 483. Corporal McRae re pension, 1251. Pte. McVicar re pay, 517, 1172. Pte. Middleton re treatment and charges, 888, 1173. No. 11014, 19th Batt. C.E.F., re insuffi- cient pension, 1248. Lance-Corporal O'SiilUvan re treatment, 481. Pte. Poirier re pen- sion, 1249. Pte. Reis re treatment, 542, 1177. Pte. Saimders re insufficient pension, 1248. Pte. Sentall re medical attendance, 518, 1172. Pte. Geo. J. Slack re pay, 811. . Pte. Smillie re assigned pay, 1167. Pte. Stafford re gratuity, 1144. Corporal Stirling re treatment, 841. Pte. Tnulel re pensions, 348, 1222. Turley, W. E., re treatment and delayed pay and allowance, 771, 1173. Sergeant Waugh re pay and allowance, 1256. Pte. Whittaker re treatment, 819. Sergeant-Major Whitton re pension, 786, 1222. Complaints (fortt cases) Investigated by Major Todd: — ^See pages 1076, 1087. Complaints (specific) Investigated by Major Ingall: — See pages 1168-78. Complaints (samples of) Reported to Committee by Major Ingall: — See pages 1185-1191. Conference, Interprovincial re Employment for Returned Soldiers : — Memo, of suggestion adopted at Ottawa, 616. Clause of report of the Conference read by the Chairman, 710. Letter of the Prime Minister of Ontario regarding the problem of taking care and pro- viding employment for returned members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force, 948. See also Soldiers' Aid Commissions, Provincial. Convalescent Homes and Sanatoria :— See evidence of Colonel Alfred Thompson, pages 32-61. Of Hon. J. S. McLennan, 84-90. Of Mr. T. B. Kidner, 90-133. Of Mr E. H. Scammell, 231-240. Of Lieut.-Col. Smith, 418. Of Dr. Shepherd, 4 29. Of Mr. Doble, 435. Of Trooper Brown, 470-78. Of Captain Grey, 567. Of Major McTaggart, 581. Of Major G. E. Hall, 585. Of Dr. Walker, re New Brunswick and Nova Scotia Homes, 503. Of Mr. W. K. George re Toronto Homes, 639. Of Major Munn, 668. Of Capt. Farrar, 691. Of Col. Marlow re his inspection and report, 166-230, 724-769. Of Mr. Scammell, 951- 994. Of Mr. S. A. Armstrong, 998-1009. Of Surgeon-General Fotheringham re military control over the convalescent returned soldier, 1223-46. Of Dr. Byers re treatment of tuberculous patients in sanatoria at Ste. Agathe, 458-466. See also exhibit submitted by Mr. MacCoy, respecting homes in Nova Scotia, 611. Discharge, Soldiers': — Classification of men for immediate discharge (Col. Sharpies), 10, 11. Discharge paper used at Quebec is of a very poor quality (Lieut.-Col. Hendrie), 1094. When and how men are discharged, 352-54. Authority to discharge, how delegated (Major-General Wilson), 399. Causes for discharge (Major-General Logie), 631-32. List of discharged Ontario soldiers under occupations, 315. Number of Class E men awaiting discharge in England, 497. Classified return showing number of men discharged, in Military District No. 2, 1027. Table showing number of Class 1 men for immediate discharge, 1092. Disembarkation Depots : — Procedure followed at Quebec, Halifax and St. John with returning soldiers (Col. Sharpies), 9-16. How returning soldiers are received and transported to destination (Brig.-Cieneral Biggar), 62. Medical aspect of work at Quebec Depot (Col. Marlow), 804. • Employment for Returned Soldiers: — See Conference, etc., also Soldiers Aid Commissions. Enlistments: — Number of men enlisted in No. 4 Military District (Major-General Wilson), 597, 498. Number of men enlisted in No. 2 Military District (Major-General Logie), 625. Statement of the Units that have left Military District No. 2 since 1st Contingent, 1028-29. TABLE OF COXTENTS v FORESTRY AND RAILROAD CONSTRUCTION UNITS: — Men With minor defects transferred to (Major- General Wilson), 397. Class "B" men enlisted in (Lieut.-Col. Maclnnes), 354. FUNCTIONAL Training and Re-education : — See Vocational Training, etc. GREAT "War Veterans Association (G.W.V.A.) : — See Soldiers' Associations, etc. Industrial, Educational and Municipal aid re Employment : — Armstronu, Mr. P. C, Super- intendent of Dominion Bridge Company — Have employed 625 returned soldiers — Extra liability entailed in some cases — A mistake to treat the soldier as an object of charity, 562-67. Church, Mayor T. L., Toronto — What Toronto has done and is doing for the returned soldier — Returned men who apply for work — Accommodation for convalscents, 713-23. Grasett, Lieut.-Col, Toronto Chief of Police, — Police protection for returned soldiers, 723. Harrison, Dr., Principal, Macdonald College, — Specialized forms of farm- ing taught — Men should be divided into two classes for that purpo.se — Some disabled men have returned to college to complete their course, 448-49. Xclson, Controller J. W., Ottawa Council — Council divided into five groups who take weekly turns to look after returned men — Municipal aid to Soldiers' Aid Commission, 327. Shortt, Dr. Adam, Civil Service Commissioner — Orders in Council re preference given to returned soldiers in the Government sei-vice, 370-81. Insanity Cases: — Clause 28 of Regulations governing the payment of pensions, 137. Arrange- ments made with nearly all provinces (Lieut. J. K. L. Ross), 146. List of insanity cases, 149. How cases are distributed and treated (Capt Farrar), 691. List of insanity cases, February 24, 1917, 998. Khaki League, Montreal: — Ninety-five returned soldiers under treatment at the Home of (Lieut-Col. Patch), 410. Work done by the League (Mr. Doble). 432-40. Duties of the medical officer in cliarge of the Khaki League Home (Major McTaggart), 581. Co- operate with the League in looking after the families of soldiers (Mrs. Rutherford), 493. Land Settlement Schemes: — Instead of the Government giving land and $500 it would be better if materials and implements were purchased for the men (Capt. Macpherson), 342. There is a call for men in the West who could do agricultural engineering owing to the use of the gasoline engine, the separator, the traction engine and so on (Dr. Harrison), 450. The group system of farms as planned by the Government of New Brunswick (Major Tilley), 519.- Land settlement after the war (Major Tilley), 605. Would advise the re-enlistment of returned soldiers and place them on Crown lands in the western provinces to receive the same pay and allowance (Hon. Geo. A. Simard), 553. Sees no reason why the colony scheme could not be made self-supporting in the case of the returned soldier who receives a pension from the Government (Major Munn), 678. Ontario Government scheme to assist the returned soldier to learn farming and for form- ing land colonies (Hon. G. H. Ferguson), 707-712, and 791. When the land schemes are taken up in the West there will be 50 per cent of the men who will go back to the farm (Mr. Law), 861. Thinks that any land settlement scheme should be part of a general immi- gration or colonization scheme so far as it affects soldiers. Another scheme would be the community centre for a limited time (G. Harmon Jones), 874-882. From 50 to 60 per cent of the men coming back to Saskatoon are in favour of some grant. The chief proposition is the community system of about 160 acres per man and a long term loan with small interest. The disabled who are unable to work the land should not be debarred. That financial assistance be given to returned homesteaders and those hold- ing pe-emptions who are in financial difficulties (G. H. Herbert), 884-86. At a meeting convened by our association, 70 per cent of those present signified their willingness to become producers if a suitable land scheme were put forward (Sergt. -Major Guilfoyle), 911. A majority of the men at several meetings convened endorsed the suggestion that 320 acres of land are necessary to each man in Alberta — Horses, lumber and implements to be supplied at wholesale rates — The land should not belong to the settler until he gets his patent, but he should be paid for in\provements made to enable him to live (Geo. Wells), 912-13. The principle adopted by the British Columbia Commission is a com- munity settlement scheme — The land clearing in our province is a great factor (J. H. Hill), 921. Land settlement scheme on Seabird Island, B.C. (W. Drinnan), 926. Recom- mendations regarding community land settlement setting forth the provincial govern- ment's purpose (See report submitted by Mr. Hill). 1041. Memorandum of Calgary Veterans' Club re Land Settlement, 943. Scheme of the Toronto Housing Company re Suburban Community Settlements for Returned Soldiers, 1145. Resolutions submitted to the Committee re the Land Question (Messrs. Finn and Irwin), 1206-8. Last Pay Certificate and Pass Book : — Complains present system causes delay in pay (Trooper Brown), 485. Very general complaint about the last pay certificate — Pte. Jones' case reported (Dr. Evans), 536. The pay book is the man's own personal property although he may have handed it out to have it checked at Quebec — The officers at Quebec give the returning soldier a certain amount on account which is recorded on his last pay certificate (Major Wilson). 659. My pay book was taken from me at Quebec; I have not seen it since (W. E. Turley), 772. When at Bath in 1916. my pay book was sent to London and I have not seen it since (Sergt. -Major Whitton), 772. The man's last pay «ertificate is forwarded to headquarters at Ottawa, his account is adjusted there, and fresh last pay certificate (L.P.C.) is forwarded to Toronto (Lieut.-Col. Forbes), 825. The man returns from overseas invariably with his pay book and is given an advance of $10 when he arrives at Quebec (Lieut. Chadwick). 847. The last i>ay certificate has vi TABLK OF COS TEXTS been one source of great annoyance (Mr. McRae), 867. Explains grievance about men not being allowed to keep their pay books (Mr. Borden), 1110. The soldier now takes his pay book wherever he goes (Major Ingall), 1126. Medical Boauds and Medical Examinations : — The Medical Board at Quebec classifies the returned men into three classes (Col. Sharpies), 9-16. Highly qualified medical men are employed at debarkation hospitals — Medical records in Canada and medical history of the returning soldier (Col. Thompson), 33-35. How medical boards are constituted (Col. Potter), 70. Reports of medical boards, how revised and checked (Col. Potter), 78. Re-examination of men for pension purposes (Lieut. Ross), 144. How medical examinations were conducted during the winter of 1915-16 (Col. Marlow), 203-213. Cir- cular letters instructing medical boards ?-e inspection and examination, 245-66. Rules for the medical examination of recruits, 2SS. A Central Examining Board was started in Montreal in the fall of 1915, to which every man had to be brought (Lieut-Col. Patch), 404. LTnfortunately there is no continuity of medical boards at the Discharge Depot (Mr. MacCoy), 525. There should be a permanent Standing Medical Board for the examination of men who are eligible for pensions (Major Purney), 53 2. Remarks and suggestions respecting the medical aspect of work at Quebec Discharge Depot (Col. Marlow), 8 04. The Medical Board at Winnipeg and men examined for pensions by a specialist (Mr. Law), 852. Medical Board at Calgary very busy (Harold Hodgson), 908. How appointments of medical men are made after the names have been approved by the M. H. C. (Mr. Scammell), 975. See also evidence of Surgeon-General Fotheringham re work of the C.A.M.C. with the M.H.C., 1223-47, and Medical Boards on Units, page 277. Military Hospital Cars : — With our hospital cars it is hoped patients can be taken as far as Winnipeg without a break (Brig.-General Biggar), 62. See also photogravures of cars (Exhibit No. 3), 392-393. Military Hospitals and Convalescent Homes Commission: — Armstrong, S. A., Director of the Commission — Hospital accommodation throughout Canada, 999-1003. Insane might be cared for in provincial institutions, IOCS. Percentage of tuberculosis cases from camps ^ very high, 1004. Orthopaedic Institutes, 1005-7. Byers, Dr. J. R., in charge of Sana- toria at Ste. Agathe — Reads statement on care and treatment of patients — Sanitary pre- cautions — Tables showing progress made, 458-466. Farrar, Dr. C. R., Specialist, on insanity — Patients distributed into three classes according to mildness or severity found to exist. Discipline necessai-y, 691-693. Forbes, Lieut.-Col, Medical Officer of M.H.C., Montreal — Organizing and re-equipping the Grey Nuns' Home — ^Suggestions re certain differences discussed, 451-57. George, Mr. W. K. — Equipment of various convalescent homes in Toronto — Accommodation at Whitby, Guelph and Hamilton, 639-47. Harris, Lloyd — 3,000 beds to be installed in No. 2 Military District, including Guelph, 659. LeCras, T. J., Superintendent of Orthopaedic Institute, Toronto— Number of orders for limbs — Number of limbs completed — Prices, etc., 681-690. McLennan, Hon. J. S., mem- ber of M. H. C. — General organization described — Vocational training in particular, 84-90. ScammeJl, E. H., Secretary of Military Hospitals Commission — Orders in Council creat- ing the MjH.'C, and convalescent homes — ^^Number of invalided men received per week — - Accommodation provided for convalescents, 231-240 — The tubercular situation, 951-71. Makes three recommendations re Government service, the land settlement question, 971- 74. Duties of the Army Medical Corps in respect to the Military Hospitals Commission, 974-982. Documents re additional power given the Commission, filed, 994-98. Shepherd, Dr. F. J., Member of the Hospitals Commission, Montreal — Divided authority as at pre- sent exists is an utter failure — Found twenty-five tuberculous patients in one room in Grey Nuns Home, without the knowledge of the doctor, 428-32. Smith, Lieut. -Col. C. F., Member of Hospitals Commission, Local Committee, Montreal — Cost of buildings, salarie.'? and number of cases treated, 418-22. How the returned soldier's position could be improved regarding allowances — Patriotic Fund grants and pensions discus.sed — Families assisted, 422-25. Relations between the A.D.M.S. and the M.H.C., 426-27. Thompson, Col. A. T., Medical Soiperintendent of M. H. C, Ottawa — Reads Orders in Council creat- ing the Commission, 26-32. Describes five classes of hospitals for treatment of the returned soldier, 32-34. How medical history of every man is recorded, 35. Cases under treatment, number of, 3,779. Active treatment hospitals described — Tubercular hospitals — Orthopaedic Institutes, 38-44. Vocational department, 44-45. Alcohol and syphilis, two great factors In insanity, 52. Venereal cases, 52-56. Total number (10,863) of beds available, 60. Walker, Dr., member of St. John (N.B.) M.H.C. Describes organization of Commission in New Brunswick, 503. Tubercular cases sent to Ste. Agathe and Lake Edward, 504. Accommodation at St. John — Papers sent to Halifax — The delay is not at Ottawa, 504-5. Military Hospitals Commission Command: — Sharpies, Colonel — Officer Commanding, 9-26. Hall, Major G. E., Officer Commanding, Montreal "A" Unit — Duties of — Reports to Col. Sharpies, General Wilson and General Fages, 584. Answers criticisms of administration and discipline in respect to Grey Nuns Convalescent Home, 585-602. Wilson, Major, Officer Commanding, Toronto "D" Unit — Pay book and last pay certificate explained — Punishment described, 659-60. Necessity of having conducting officers sent with men from Quebec. 661-62. Responsible to General Logie for discipline and to Col. Sharpies for interior economy and administration, 662-68. Minnewaska and Gravenhurst Sanatoria: — Accommodation and treatment at (Col. Marlow), 214-18. In some respects not suitable (Major Munn), 675, Weekly charges to patientar 675, 743. Men discharged from the institution prematurely (Col. Marlow), 744-46. Correspondence between Mr. Gage and Col. Marlow and Dr. Kendall re provision for patients at Gravenhurst, 747-48. TABLE OF CONTENTS vii National Service Board of Canada: — Peterson, Mr. Chas. W., Secretary — Describes card sent to Overseas forces to be filled in by the men — Occupational survey of Canada to be obtained — Forms submitted to Committee — Co-operation with provinces aimed at re dis- tribution of soldiers for employment, 1147-53. Copies of letters sent out to Boards of Trade and Organized Labour, 1153-58. Orders in Council, government Bills, Charters, etc. : — Creating the Military Hospitals Com- mission, 26. Additional power granted to provide vocational training, 28, 31. Respect- ing Pension Regulations, 133. Respecting Government allowances for men and their families in connection with vocational training taken up by disabled soldiers, 155. Orders and Regulations re enlistments in the Canadian Overseas Forces, 243, 287. Creating the Soldiers' Aid Commission of Ontario, 303-5, 391. Letters patent granted to incorporate The Canadian Association of Returned Soldiers, Ottawa District, 331. Orders in Council giving preference to soldiers in connection with employment in the Government service, 370, 372, 377, 380, 381. Regulations re Badges and Recruiting, 381-3. Canadian Asso- ciation of Returned Soldiers, Montreal District, 499. The Nova Scotia Returned Soldiers Employment Committee, 610. The Quebec Soldiers Employment Commission, 614. Bill providing for the Agricultural Settlement of Soldiers and Sailors serving Overseas in the present war, 791. Respecting an additional three months' pay and allowance to a soldier who has been honourably retired or discharged after six months' continuous ser- vice, 948. Respecting subsistence allowance for men undergoing vocational training, 994. Respecting the official acceptance of death of officers and men who have been reported "missing," 1021. Respecting regulations governing the Issue of Pay, Allow- ances and Pension, 1022. Letters patent to incorporate The Returned Soldiers' Associa- tion of Winnipeg, 1034. An Act to incorporate The Saskatchewan Returned Soldiers' Employment Commission, 1037. Orders in Council respecting the appointment of a Central Provincial Committee, Province of Alberta, in connection with the problem of taking care of and providing employment for returned soldiers, 1040-41. Order in Council creating The Provincial Returned Soldiers' Aid Commission of British Columbia, 1041. Reference to Order in Council creating The Board of National Service of Canada, 1150. Schedule of Regulations with reference to medical services, etc.. 1246. Orders in Council respecting additional pay to returned mn, 1258-59. Orthopaedic Institutes: — See Artificial Limbs, etc. Patriotic Fund, Canadian : — A sliding scale suggested in respect to Patriotic Fund allowance (Major Purney), 532. Wife and family did not take any help from (Mr. Hay), 851. How the Patriotic Fund helps in hundreds of cases — A complaint made on general prin- ciples — How total allowance amounting to $71 per month is made up including the Patriotic Fund allowance (The Chairman and Mr. Knight), 1256-57. Pat and Allowances. Assigned Pat, Separation Allowance — Militia Department: — Maclnncs, Lieut. -Col C. S. — A man is credited with a certain amount of pay from date of discharge and is given a sum not exceeding $10 at discharge depot, 352. Brown, R. P., Assistant Paymaster-General — Regulations governing pay to returning soldiers, 363. Separation allowances paid in Canada and England — Regimental rates of pay and allow- ances, 366-67. Total amount of deferred pay according to latest returns from overseas, 369. How over-payments arise, 369-70. Purney, Major, President G.W.V.A. — Military pay and allowances should be gradually diminished rather than the system of being cut off quickly, payments to cover a period of three months, 532. Turley. W. E.. Toronto — Remarkable delay in the matter of adjusting pay and allowances, 771. Forbes, Lieut.- Col., Toronto — 'Three paymasters in Toronto district, defines duties of each, 824-27. Chadwick, Lieut., Toronto — How a soldier's account is dealt with after he has landed at Quebec, 846-49. Macdonahl, W. A., returned soldier, E the evidence of Mr. E. R. Cameron, 303-327 ; of Mr. Chas. Robinson, 506 ; of Mr. W. B. MacCoy, 523 ; of Hon. Geo. A. Simard, 544 ; of Hon. W. D. McPherson, 647 ; of Hon. G. H. Ferguson, 707 ; of Mr. A. Pearce, 834 ; of Mr. G. Harmon Jones, 874 ; of Mr. H. S. Stutchbury, 890; of Mr. J. H. Hill, 918; Letter of the Premier of Ontario, 948. Statistics showing care of men by local branches of the Ontario Commission, 1031. See also an advertisement by the Ontario Soldiers' Aid Commission, 987. Soldiers' Associations, Returned — Great War Veterans, Members of, and others : — Ander- son, Major J. R., Member of Great War Veterans Association Executive Committee — Addresses the Parliamentary Committee on functional training of the returned maimed soldier, 1208. Brown, Trooper V. R., Secretary of Montreal Association — Aims of our local association — Complaints re accommodation on vessel homeward bound, 468-69. Grey Nuns Convalescent Home and basement room not suitable, 470-72. An unfortunate altercation, 478. Specific complaints, 480-85. Drinnan, Mr. W., President Vancouver Association — A central distress fund agreed on to obviate overlapping of aid, 926. Evans, Dr., Commandant, Kingston Branch of Great War Veterans Association — Evi- dence, pages 535-43. Finn, Captain I., Member of Prince Albert Veterans— Addresses the Committee re Land Settlement, 1206. ■ Guilfoyle, Sergt. -Major, President Calgary Association,- — Membership and aims of the Association, 898. Pension provisions for dependents — The gratuity system — Disability percentages — Artificial limbs, 902-905. Hart, H. W., Member British Columbia Association — Pensions for dependents of soldiers who have fallen, inadequate, 929-34. Employment schemes for men, 937-38. Hay, A. C, President Winnipeg Association — Membership- — Employment, 849-52. Presents resolu- tion re orphan children and their care in suitable homes instead of being wards in public hospitals, 1210. Herbert, O. H., Vice-President Saskatchewan Association — Land settle- ment — Men who hold pre-emptions unable to make payments while at the front — Separ- ation allowance — Positions in the Civil Service, 884-86. Specific cases of grievances, 887-890. Hodgson, Harold, Member Calgary Association — Land Settlement Bill should be referred to Veterans Association for consideration before enactment, 915. Irwin, W., Member Edmonton Association — Status of foreigners in western provinces re naturali- zation and military service, 1213. Latv, F. W., Member of Manitoba Association, Win- nipeg — Medical Board examinations at Winnipeg, 852. Submits cases of grievances for investigation, 853-61. Lowman, L. E., Member Oxford County Association — Employ- ment — Farm work not attractive, 130-33. Loivery, A. E., Member Toronto Association — Grievances re pay and allowances — Suggests a central agency for soldiers, 776-77, 818- 22. Macdonald, W. A., Member Edmonton Association — Pay and pensions, 916-18. MacPherson, Captain K. C, Member of Great War Veterans Association Executive, Ottawa — Organization of Ottawa Association, 330-41. Return of men to civil positions — Land scheme, 342-44. Presents memorandum re pension recommendations to the Com- mittee, 1201-05. Equal pensions for all classes suggested — Discusses clause in British scheme. 1214-15. Marion, Sergt.-Major (22nd Battalion). Montreal Association — Defi- cient ventilation at convalescent home — Knowledge of French necessary at Discharge TABLE OF CONTENTS ix Depot, 577-79. I'l-esents Paul Caty's case for investigation, 580-81. McRue, John, Chairman of Relief Committee of Winnipeg Returned Soldiers Association — Our purposes in organization — Work done by our Committee in relieving distress — Funds how collected — How money is advanced to the returned soldier, 865-69. Community farms, their necessity explained — Amputations — Grievances — Buttons sold, 870-72. MignauJt, Colonel, Montreal and St. Cloud Hospital, France — Functional training and re-education follow- ing Dr. Amar's principles applied to disabled soldiers — A set of instruments bought and sent to Ramsgate Hospital for Canadians — Advises the Committee to examine Sir Henry Norman' report, 1209. Canada could be equipped with a full set of such instruments for a few thousand dollars, 1209-10. I'urney, Major W. P., President Halifax Association, and President of Great War Veterans Association — Aims of the Halifax Association — Would like a permanent medical board — In favour of a sliding scale of pay for three months, 531-35. Addresses the Committee as President of the Great War Veterans Asso- ciation, 1194-8. Relph, Major, Advisory Counsel of Ottawa Soldiers' Association — Returned soldiers would prefer outdoor employment — Instances soldier Trudel's case re pension, 347-48. In charge of the Estates Branch respecting officers and men who were killed, 351. Robinson, Sergt.-Major J. (.D.C.M.), 1st Vice-President of Great War Veterans Association of Canada — Presents resolution on compulsory legislation respect- ing military service, 1198-99. Shanahan, J. J., 2nd Vice-President of Great War Veterans Association of Canada — Supports resolution respecting pensions, 1205-06. Stafford, Sergt.-Major, Member of Great War Veterans Association Executive, Vancouver — Pre- sents resolution respecting a "Last Post Fund," to provide honourable burial, 1212. Tilley, Major, L.P.D., Chief Recruiting Officer, St. John, N.B. — Advises the re-adjusting of pensions affecting soldiers who are badly disfigured — instances cases of complaints re soldiers Lalicheur, Colelian, Cahole, Henderson, Hyatt and McVicar, 513-17. Group system of farms for returned soldiers, 519. Submits New Brunswick Government scheme for land settlement after the war, 605. Tippelt, C. S., Member of Executive, Great War Veterans Association — Presents resolution recommending that arrangements be made to expedite the work of the various branches of the Paymaster General's Department relat- ing to soldiers' and dependents' pay accounts, 1212. Turley, W. E., Secretary of Toronto District Association — Organization of the association — Principal grievance of men is with regard to delay in getting their pay and pension accounts adjusted, 770-81. Specific" cases presented of a man getting lower wages on account of disability due to service, 786. Wells, George, Member of Calgary Association — Reports feeling of men as expressed at meetings conyened to discuss land settlement schemes, 312-15. Whitton, Sergt.-Major J. R., Member of Toronto Association — Membership of the association, 770. Pay-book sent to London: not seen since, 772. Pensions totally inadequate, 782-783. Criticises accommodation at Whitby, 813-15. Advisable to co-operate with Soldiers' Aid Commission re employment for men, 815-17. Zivian, Joshua, Secretary of Ottawa Asso- ciation—Chief grievance is the question of salary, 384. Objects of our organization; fraternal benefits, etc., 385. Soldiers, Blind : — Present returns show not more than twenty cases of blind returned soldiers — Blind soldiers are trained in massage w^ork, typewriting, basketmaking and broom- making — A blind returned soldier gets full disability pension plus an allowance for attendant, 109. All the blinded ex-soldiers are supposed to be trained at St. Dunstan's — Three blind soldiers only in Montreal have necessitated attention, 5.J9. The proportion of blind among the disabled is very small — A soldier's home may be necessarj' for the blind, 560. Soldiers, Disabled : — Classification of, at Reception Depot, page 9. SOLDIERS, Invalided: — Special General Provision re pay and allowance until discharged, 368. Care of (Letter of General Hodgins). 627. Disposition and treatment of (Col. Marlow), 194. Memo, of suggestions re invalided soldiers from Overseas, 805. Soldiers, Preference Giten to, in Civil Service: — See evidence of Dr. Adam Shortt. 370. See also Orders in Council, 377, 380, 381. Soldiers' Wives' Leagues : — How assistance is given soldiers' families awaiting employment (Mrs. Busteed), 489; (Mrs. Rutherford). 493. Special Service Companies: — Notes on the examination of recruits for, 251. Wliat constitutes unfitness, 252. Standard requirements. 292, 294, 296. Necessary for guard and other military duties in Canada (Lt.-Col. Macinnes), 357-362. Men permanently unfit trans- ferred to (Major-General I>ogie), 626. Procedure re men released from Special Service Companies (Major-General Wilson), 397-98. Statistics and Records : — 1. Memo, respecting a "Disabled Soldiers' Training Board," 96. 2. Application Forms for vocational training, 118. 3. Pension Regulations and Rates Scale, 133. 138. 4. Payments on account of European War, 142. 143. 5. Insanity Cases, total number of, each province, 149. 6. Classified List of Disability Pensions, 150. 7. Form re Claim for Pension for Dependents. 152. 8. Casualties, total to January 31, 1917, 154. 9. Government allowances for men and families in connection with vocational training, 155-160. TABLi] OF COyTENTS 10. Letter of Col. JMailow to the Chairman re Content.s of Report on Medical Services of Canada, 166. 11. Letter of Major-General Logic re Hospital Accommodation, 2nd Division, 169. 12. Bed Accommodation in Military Hospitals and Sanatoria in Canada, 176, 808. 13. Report on Military Hospitals, 176-177. 14. Memo, re Toronto Base Hospital, 179. 15. Form of Attestation Paper, 211. 16. Forms of Certificates of Magistrate, Medical Examination and Officer Commanding, 212-13. 17. Letter re Disi>osal of Tuberculosis Invalids, 2nd Division, 217. 18. Reports re Treatment of Tubercular Patients, 220-225. 19. Special recommendations re Medical Service, Invalids, 228. 20. Orders and Regulations re Enlistment in Canadian Expeditionary Force, 243-267, 287-99. 21. Cases admitted to hospitals in various districts, 268-269. 22. Soldiers from overseas receiving treatment in Canada, 269. 23. Venereal cases receiving treatment in Canada, 270. 24. Number of beds, accommodation, and beds occupied, 271-272-75. 25. Recruits, rules for the inspection of, 281. 26. 'Soldiers' Aid Commission Act of Ontario, 304. 27. Occupations of members of Canadian Expeditionary Force, 314, 326. 28. Discharged Ontario soldiers under occupations, list of, 315-18. 29. Disbursements by Soldiers' Aid Commission, 324. 30. Returned Soldiers, classification of at Ottawa Branch, 324-25. 31. Applicants for Employment, Ottawa Branch, 325. 32. Separation Allowance Accounts; pay and allowances, 366-67. 33. Recruiting, Regulations for; badges, regulations relating to, 382-83. 34. Canadian Association of Returned Soldiers, Ottawa District, letter.s patent creating, 391. Montreal District Association, 499. 35. Laurentian Sanatoria, cases treated at, 462, 463, 1043. 36. Class "E" men in England, number of, 497. 37. Area of Military District No. 4, 497 ; Discharges in, 498. 38. Officers and men of Units (C.E.F.) in Military District No. 4, 498. 39. Land settlement after the war (Major Tilley), 605. 40. Convalescent Homes in Nova Scotia, Report of Secretary, 611. 41. Vocational Training in Quebec and Maritime Provinces, memo., 618. 42. Special Service Companies, how men are employed, 701. 43. Mobilization Centres, creation of, 702. 44. Venereal Diseases, treatment and prophylaxis of, 802. 45. Discharge Depot at Quebec, permancy of, desirable, 804. 46. Invalided Soldiers, memo, of suggestions, 805. 47. In-Patients, Out-Patients, accommodation and beds for, 808. 48. Vocational work in British Columbia, subjects taught, etc., 920. 49. Discharge and Employment of Soldiers, resolution of Victoria Board of Trade, 923. 50. Land Settlement, suggestions by Calgary A^'eterans' Club, 943. 51. Ontario Prime Minister's letter ?-e Care and employment of returned soldier, 948. 52. Lists of disabilities necessitating return of soldier to Canada, 962. 53. Vocational work in Ontario, 987. 54. Insanity cases in list of pensioners, 998 ; tubercular cases in list of pensioners, 998. 55. Cablegrams re patients sent to Canada for treatment, 1024. 56. In-Patients and Out-Patients in Sanatoria, 2nd Division, 1027. 57. Men discharged from Military District No. 2, 1027. 58. Units of Military District No. 2, showing officers and men, 1028-29. 59. Total troops returned to Canada, 1030. €0. Returned soldiers cared for by Ontario Commission, 1031. _ 61. Causes of dissatisfaction of returned soldiers (Mr. Doble), 1044. <;2. Discipline in tubercular hospitals (Mr. Hart), 1047. €3. Precis of French Government Act forbidding acceptance of public funds, etc., 1050. 64. Comparative rates of pensions for disabilities, France, Great Britain and Canada, 1066. 65. Monthly rate of returning men, etc., 1092-93. €6. Disability awarded by Medical Board at Port of Disembarkation, 1094. 67. Paper issued at Quebec for soldier's discharge, 1094. €8. Overseas casualties (Surgeon-General Jones), 1135. 69. Hospital accommodation in Nova Scotia, steps taken for, 1138. 70. Report on return of soldiers to civilian life, 1139. 71. District offices established for pensions to soldiers, 1143. 72. Card sent to overseas forces by National Service Board, 114 8. 73. Occupational Survey Form sent by National Service Board, 1150, 58. 74. Register of complaints and analysis of, 1179-80. 75. Separation Allowance and Assigned Pay for year 1916, 1183-91. 76. Recommendations re Pensions, 1201. 77. Labour Gazette statistics re Cost of living, 1203. 78. Cost of Army Rations, cost of a child to parents, 1204. 79. Cost of living in Ottawa, 1205. 80. Scale of Pensions of all ranks, suggested, 1205. 81. Regulations and Orders re Medical services, 1246. 82. Letter and telegram from Major Purney and Mr. Hill re three months' pay and allow- ances, etc., 1260. TABLE OF CONTENTS xi Transport of Troops : — Transporting returning soldieis — Trains made up and provided with attendants for patients (Brig.-General Biggar). 62. Hospital cars taking patients to destination — See photogravures following, 392. Better accomniooation desired for maimed returning soldiers on board of homeward-bound transports (Trooper Brown), 468-69. TUBERCULOSIS, SANATORIA TREATMENT, ETC. : — Thompson. Col. A. T., Sixty per cent of the pul- monary tuberculars have never been overseas — Two kinds of tuberculosis, 37. What is done in the matter of tubercular treatment and sanatoria whereat treatment is given to returned men, 40-41. Gas effects upon the lungs, 50, 57. Kidner, Mr. T. B., Vocational Secretary, vocational work commenced for men suffering from tuberculosis, in several sanatoria, 104-108. Ross, Lieut. J.K. L., Disability pensions granted in 449 tuberculous oases 150. Marlow, Colonel, accommodation for tuberculosis patients in Canada, 214-221. Major Munn's report re treatment of, 222-25. Potter, Colonel, Instrurtions to medical officers re incipient pulmonary tuberculosis, 261. Byers, Dr. J. R., Reception, care and treatment of, at Ste. Agathe Sanatoria, 458-66. Shepherd, Dr. F. J., found twenty-five tuberculous patients in one room in a Montreal convalescent home, 429. Walker, Dr. Thomas, New Brunswick — Cases sent to Ste. Agathe and Lake Edward — Thinks the climate makes no difference with tuberculous cases, 504. Hall, Major G. E., Explanation given re twenty-five cases of tuberculosis kept in Montreal convalescent home, 588. Munn, Major F. J. (Dr.) — Treatment of tuberculosis in Military District No. 2, 670-77. Explains colony scheme for tuberculous patients, 678. Marlow, Colonel, very difficult to recogrnize milder cases of tuberculosis and a closed state, 749. Scammell, Mr. E. H., The situation of tubercular treatment by the Military Hospitals Commission organization — Sanatoria established — Vocational work of patients in sanatoria, 951-62. Armstrong, Mr. S. A. — Accommodation in the various provinces for the treatment of tuberculosis — Many cases come from the camps — Tubercular cases should be weeded out before men start for overseas, 1004-05. See also Minnewaska and Gravenhurst Sanatoria. Venereal Disease : — Treated in special wards in the military hospitals, 23. Should be segre- gated — Arrangements made with the military hospitals — Syphilitics do not recover so quickly; they may never recover, 55. A cure for syphilis, 56. Hospitals where such cases are treated, 65-66. It is a crime under military law to conceal venereal disease — Institutions at Kingston, Beauport and in Military District No. 12 for the express pur- pose of treating such disease, 68-69. Some very drastic action will have to be taken in the matter of treatment of venereal diseases (Col. Marlow), 225. Special inspection of troops for venereal disease before embarkation for oversea.s, 248. Weekly examination of all troops, ordered and instructions as to manner of examining, 253-54. Statistics showing number of cases under treatment. 268-70, 276. Prevalence of, in Military Dis- trict No. 4 (Lieut. -Col. Patch), 405-06. Treatment and prophylaxis of venereal diseases in respect to the problem of returned soldiers, report on, by Colonel Marlow, 802. It is often very difficult to detect the disease, 1053. Regulations re transferring men from England to Canada who are affected with (Surgeon-General Fotheringham), 1246. Vision, Defective : — Circular letter issued by headquarters re soldiers not to be discharged for defective vision unless the defect is due to ... . See page 249. New standard of vision, 255-57, 295. Vocational Training and Re-education: — Orders in Council authorizing, 28, 31. Schools established in nearly all convalescent homes for the purpose of restoring the disabled returned soldier (Hon. J. S. McLenlan), 84. Experience, appointment, and work done by the Vocational Secretary of the Military Hospitals Commission in connection with functional training and re-education. See evidence of Mr. T. B. Kidner, 90-133. Memo. re appointment of a Disabled Soldiers' Training Board and Provincial Advisory Committee, 96. Survey forms re soldier's training, 118. Statement showing Government allowances for the men and their families while undergoing training, 155-160. Se.rton, Dr. F. H., Vocational Officer of M. H. C, for Quebec and Maritime provinces — Therapeutic value described, 554. Subjects taught — Procedure in teaching — Extension of work, 555-562. Local characteristics — Care of the blind, 559. Nichol, Mr. W. W., Vocational Officer of M. H. C, for Ontario — Experience at Ottawa, Listowel and Toronto. 693. Organization and work in Ontario centres — Number of men taught and subjects taken up in the course. 694-698. Voluntary Organizations Re Reception and Care of Returning Soldiers : — Busteed, Mrs. E. B., Montreal — A committee of ladies attached to each unit to look after and assist families of soldiers, 489-490. Specific cvses re aid given, 491-493. Brown. Dr. John, Toronto, Y.M.C.A., Representative — What our secretaries do in England and Canada, 939. Certain work introduced at WTiitby and Toronto Institutions, 939-941. Croiiibie, Mrs., President of Soldiers* Club, Ottawa — The Laurentian Chapter, I.O.D.E., estab- lished Soldiers' Club and give free meals to soldiers on presentation of a ticket issued by the Returned Soldiers' Aid Association, 329. Doble, Mr. A. R., President Khaki League, Montreal — A brief history of the league's work given — A khaki league home was established prior to creation of Military Hospitals Commission ; also established St. George's and McTavish Homes, 432, 434. Financed by voluntary subscriptions and 7.'> cents per day per man, from the Government — Dorchester Street Khaki Club gave 27,805 meals last year, 434-35. Recommends that a central place be established where returned men can state their case and obtain a prompt hearing, 443. Objects to the placing of men in cells or clinks. 445-448. Knhling, Mrs. (Rev.) St. John, N.B., President TABLE OF COXTEXTS Women's Canadian Club — Organized a House Committee to work with the Hospitals Commission in a convalescent home where we furnish little luxuries and comforts — Our voluntary workers assist in the care of dormitories, recreation rooms and provide extra help when necessary, 520. We give a personal greeting to the men on arrival at the wharf, hand them parcels of fruit, tobacco,, candy, etc, done up in patriotic fashion, 521. A concrete example of work done by the Young Women's Patriotic Association, 522. The patriotic Fund visitors keep in touch with the faniilies of enlisted men — We also have the Soldiers' Wives' League and the Daughters of the Empire League who are concerned with the welfare of soldiers and their families, 323. McRae, Mr. John, Winnipeg, Chair- man of Relief Committee — Work done by our committee for the soldier — Funds how collected — Money advanced to the returning soldier, 865-68. Proportion of assistance to soldiers, widows and orphans, 869. Rutherford, Mrs. W., President, TVestmount Soldiers' Wives' League — Work in co-operation with the Khaki League and give assistance to families until the pension commences, 493. ALPHABETICAL LIST OF WITNESSES EXAMINED. Name. Anderson, Major J. R Armstrong, P. C Armstrong. S. A Biggar. Brig. -Gen Borden, J. W Brown, Dr. J Brown, R. P Brown, Trooper V. R Busteed, Mrs. E. B Bvers. Dr. J. R Cameron, E. R. (K.C) Chadwick, Lieut Church, Mayor T. L Crocker, J. M Crombie, Mrs Doble, A. R Drinnan, W Evans, Dr. J. G Farrar, Captain (M.D.) Ferguson, Hon. G. H Finn, Captain T Forbes. Lt.-Col. J. R Forbes, Lt.-Col. Mackenzie. . Fotheringham, Surg'-Gen Eraser, John George, W. K Gra.ssett, Lt.-Col Grey, Captain H. S. D Guilfovle. Sgt. -Major Hall, Major G. E Harris, Lloyd Harrison, i)r . .. Hart, H. W Hay, A. C Herbert, Geo. H Hill, J. H Hodgson, Harold Ingall, >Iajor Irwin, W Jones, G. Harmon .Jones, Surgeon-General Kidner, T. B Knight, N. F. R Kuhring, Mrs. (Rev.) Law, F. W LeCraf, T. J Logie, Major-General Lowery, A. E Lowman, L. E MacCov, W. B Macdonald, W. A Maclnnes, Lt. -Colonel McLennan, Hon. J. S McPherson, Hon. W. D Address. Montreal — Member (t. W. V. A. . Montreal— Employment. ... Ottawa — M.H.C. Accommodation. Ottawa — Trans])ort and Supply. . . Ottawa— Pay and .lllowances. . . . Toronto— Y.M.C. A. Work Ottawa — Pay and Allowances Montreal — Returned Soldier. . . . Montreal— Soldiers" Wives" Ste. Agathe — Tuberculosis. Ottawa— Soldiers' Aid Conmiission Toronto— Paymaster, M.D. Xo. 2 Toronto— Reception and Employment Toronto— Pensions Ottawa— Reception Montreal — Voluntary Aid .... ..... Vancouver — Soldiers' Association Kingston -G.W.V. A Toronto— Alienist Toronto— Legislation Prince A.lbert-(;.W. V. A Toronto— Paymaster, Militia Montreal — Medical Officer Ottawa— "Medical Service, Invalids. . . . Ottawa — Auditor-General Toronto— Member M. H.C Toronto— Chief Police Officer Montreal— Convalescents Calgary— retumeERAT10X BKTWEKN THE FEDERAL AND PROVINCIAL AUTHORITIES TO SECURE EMPLOYMENT FOR RETURNED SOLDIERS. It is further recommended: — (A) That the Federal Government should assume the expenses and responsibility of finding employment for the returned soldiers, with such co-operation from the provinces as they are willing and able to give. (B) That when a civil servant has honourably served in the Canadian Expedi- tionary Forces overseas, the time which he has spent on active service should be taken into account as though he had been absent on leave, and his grade and standing as a civil servant should be determined accordingly. (C) That every returned soldier entitled to be placed on the pension list should Lave it made known to him at the earliest opportunity that the amount of his pension is based on the injury received, without regard to his subsequently acquired earning capacity. This will result in the pensioner's being encouraged to make himself more efficient, physically and economically, knowing that his pension will not be decreased thereby. He will then naturally avail himself of the free and practical vocational training and re-education, and make wiser use of the separation and sustenance allowances now provided by the Government through the Military Hospitals Commis- sion. The object of this is that the returned soldier may, at the earliest possible date, secure suitable employment, and, once more, assist in national production. (D) That with a view to enabling the disabled soldier to secure employment and of preventing discrimination against him, on the ground that his disability renders him more liable to accidents, the Committee recommends that the Federal Government assume the responsibility, in whole or in part, for insurance, which will place such disabled soldier on a parity with the physically fit, having regard to the pension which he received for his disablement. (E) Your committee also recommends the establishment and maintenance by the Federal Government at suitable centres throughout the Dominion of general clearing-house bureaux, where information respecting all matters affecting returned soldiers would be given. This should include information respecting pay, separation allowances, pensions, hospital treatment, re-education and vocational training. Such bureaux might also act as federal employment agencies, and should have power to advance transportation expenses to the proposed place of employment and act in con- junction with the various Provincial Ai'd Committees, War Veterans' Associations, local bodies, heads of municipalities, manufacturers and employers of labour in their district. These should be responsible to the Federal Government for finding su/^h employment: REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE xxxvii (F) Your CominittiHj is of tlic opinion tli;it it, is tlio duty of the St;itc to make all necessary and suitable arrangements for tlie proper niaintenanco of returned disabled soldiers and their families, and recommend that legislation be enacted by the Federal Parliament to prevent indiscriminate and unauthorized appeals for funds or other property by private persons or associations on behalf of returned soldiers, so that no appeal for funds, or subscriptions, or any benefits on their behalf should be made, except such as may be authorized by legislation of this Parliament. PAY AND ALLOWANCES. (a) The soldiers' original pass-book should not be taken from him, or if called ii. for purposes of verification, should be retruned to him before discharge in order that he may be able to assure himself that his final settlement is just, and that he has received all moneys rightly due him. All such pass-books at present with the Pay Department should be returned. (b) Three months' bonus pay, which, under Order in Council 1091, directs that a soldier who has been overseas and has been on active service, for at least six months, should receive on discharge pay in diminishing monthly amounts, for example: if $100 bonus is due him, he should receive $30 the first month, $25 the second month, $20 the third month, $15 the fourth month and $10 the fifth month, thus enabling him to gradually return to civil life and employment. (c) The system of giving clothing on discharge should be altered so as to secure for the man a well-made and properly fitted suit of serviceable civilian clothing, made of standard cloth purchased through the War Purchasing Commission, and the cash grant in lieu thereof should be abolished. (d) Your Committee recommends that steps be taken to reorganize the separa- tion allowance and assigned pay service' and that an immediate endeavour be made to secure new and more commodious quarters where the staff can work under better conditions with a thorough business system installed. . LAND SETTLKMENT. The returned soldiers, especially those from the Western Provinces, evinced much interest in Land Settlement schemes, and several projects on this subject were offered in evidence. Your Committee, however, has not as yet given serioiis study to questions of this nature, as the JNIinister of the Interior has already presented a motion for the creation of "The Soldiers' Settlement Board" and much legislation has been passed on this subject by the provinces. (See Appendices to Evidence.) GENERAL RECOMM ENDATIONS. (a) Complaint has been made that a French-speaking soldier landing in Canada has not always been met and examined on debarkation by persons who have knowledge rf the French language, and it is recommended that provision be made at Quebec, Halifax and St. John to remove this cause of complaint. - {h) As soon as a definite policy has been adopted by the bodies concerned (The Militia Department, ]\Iilitnry Hospitals Commission, Pensions Commissioners, and Soldiers' Aid Associations) for securing the proper return of a soldier to civilian life, a booklet, explaining the procedure in simple language, should be prepared and distributed among the members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force and mad^ available for the general public. xxxviii SPECIAL COMMITTED— (X.E.F.—RWrU IM ED ffOLDlEIiS A rcHUK'St was inadp to your (Joinniittoc that it .should auk th(i ( Jovdriimeiit ^> res(;ind the Order in Council wherel)y tlie henciits of the three months' pay is with- • drawn from discharged soldiers who return to jxisitions kept open for them in the Civil Service, hut your Coinniittee docs i\ot deem it advisuhh; to make recommenda- tions to this effect. Your Committee also recommends that the Preliminary, and this Report and the Minutes of Proceedings and Evidence submitted herewith, togetlier with a suitable Index to be prepared by the Clerk of the Committee, be printed in both langnages in blue-book form for distribution, and as an Appendix to the Journals of the House. All of which is respectfully submitted. HERBERT B. AMES, Chairman. MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS AND EVIDENCE S277— 1 SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS APPOINTED TO INQUIRE INTO AND REPORT UPON : THE RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND FUTURE DIS- POSITION OF RETURNED SOLDIERS OF THE CANADIAN EXPEDITIONARY FORCES MEMBEKS OF THE COMMITTEE Sir Herbert Ames {Chairman). Messieurs Bennett (Calgary), Marcil (Bonaventure), Middlebro, Murphy, McCurdy, Pardee, Ross (Middlesex), Sutherland (Oxford). SUBJECTS OF INVESTIGATION. (a) The reception, treatment, care, training and re-education of the wounded, disabled and convalescent who have served in the Canadian Expeditionary Forces. (h) The provision of employment for those who have been honourably discharged from the Canadian Expeditionary Forces and the training and re-education of those so discharged who are unable to engage in their former occupation. 28277— li I * SPBCIAL COMMITTEE OE THK HOUSK OF COMMONS ON RETURNED SOLDIERS. MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS. House of Commons, Eoom No. 6, "Wednesday, February 7, 1917. The Special Committee of the House of Commons, appointed to consider, inquive into and report upon, — (a) The reception, treatment, care, training and re-education of the wounded, disabled and convalescent who have served in the Canadian Expeditionary- Forces ; (h) The provision of employment for those who have been honourably discharged from the Canadian Expeditionary Forces and the training and re-education of those so discharged who are unable to engage in their former occupation, met for organization. Members Present : Sir Herbert Ames, Hon. Charles Marcil, Hon. F. B. McCurdy, ]\rr. Middlebro, Mr. Pardee, Mr. Boss (Middlesex), and Mr. Sutherland (Oxford). Mr. !Middlebro moved, that Sir Herbert Ames be elected chairman.— Motion unani- mously agreed to. The committee then proceeded to consider what information could be secured regarding existing agencies of assistance given to returned soldiers, and in connection therewith, it was ordered that the following gentlemen be invited to appear before the committee and give evidence : — Col. Sharpies, on work at the disembarkation depot. General J. Lyons Biggar, on transportation of the soldier from the debarkation depot to his home town. Col. Alfred Thompson, ^I.P., regarding care of soldiers in hospital in Canada. Mr. T. B. Kidner, Vocational Secretary, Hospitals Commission. Col. Potter, regarding evacuation of soldier from hospital. Mr. E. H. Scammell, Secretary, Hospitals Commission. ^Ir. R. P. Brown, regarding militai-j- pay and allowances. Lieut. J. K. L. Ross, regarding disablement allowances. Mr. P. H. Morris, regarding assistance given by the Patriotic Fund. The secretary of the committee was thereupon instructed to communicate with the gentlemen mentioned and request their attendance for Thursday and Friday, 22nd and 23rd February instant, at 10 o'clock a.m. The committee then adjourned until Thursday, 22nd February, at 10 o'clock a.m, V. CLOUTIER, HERBERT B. AMES, Clerk of the Committee on Beturned Soldiers. Chairman. PE'lIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—REl'URNED SOLDIERS Pf House of Commons, Committee Room No. 301, February 22, 191Y. The committee met at 10.30 a.m., the chairman. Sir Herbert Ames, presiding. There were also present Mr. R. B. Bennett, Hon. Charles Marcil, Hon. Charles Mur- phy, Mr. Middlebro, Mr. Sutherland (Oxford), Hon. Mr. McCurdy, Mr. Pardee and Mr. Ross (Middlesex), of the Commons; Hon. Messrs. Beleourt, Beaubien and Ross (Moosejaw), and Brigadier-General Mason, members of the Senate Committee. The Chairman: You are probably aware, gentlemen, that at the time of the appointment of the Commons Committee, the Senate named a Committee with a similar object and I took upon myself the liberty of writing Sir James Lougheed saying that it would be agreeable' to us, if agreeable to them, that the members of the Senate Committee should sit with us at the same time. Some members of the Senate Committee are present this morning, namely, Senators Beleourt, Beaubien and Ross, and Brigadier-General Mason. Sir James Lougheed has been called away on account of the death of his daughter. It is, therefore, probable that we shall have a quorum of the Senate Committee as well as of our own Committee. At the first meeting of the Commons Committee you were good enough to elect me as Chairman, and in anticipation of your wishes I have given some attention to what might be deemed the lines of investigation. I looked over what was said in the House when the Honourable Member for West Lambton made the suggestion with respect to the appointment of a Committee, and I see that the Prime Minister said at that time : (Reads) : I shall see to it that such a Committee is appointed, and that the informa- tion which I am about tO give the House, as to what has been done, is placed before it with the view of supplementing, as far as may be necessary, in the judgment of the Committee, the very great work that has already been done, and which I think is very inadequately appreciated. Later on, when the Committee was named, the Prime Minister said: This is precisely in the form in which I read the motion to the House yesterday, and I have very great pleasure in moving it now, as I have no doubt that the inquiry which, is proposed will elicit not only information as to the existing arrangements, which I have already given to the House in speaking on my honourable friend's motion, but it doubtless will furnish the Committee with very much fuller information on the subject, as my statement to the House was, of course, only a summary of- the very great work which has been under- taken by the Military Hospitals Commission and by various Committees and Boards which have already been created. The motion, as members will notice, is in two parts; the first part dealing with rhe inquiry regarding impaired men, and the other part dealing with the larger subject of the rehabilitation in civil life of men who are fit. The first part of the question is the one which really presses, since we have with us today very few men either than those who have been returned as unfit for further military service, so that our inquiry probably first will deal with the care of the returned soldier more particularly, those who are no longer fully efficient. I would simply suggest to the Committee that we follow some such course as this : that first of all we get a full record of all that is being done by existing agencies for the returned soldier; that we sum- RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 7 mon as witnesses those gentlemen who can give us that information, and that every member of the Committee feel entirely free to cross-question the witnesses to the fullest extent in order to ascertain whether the measvires being taken are thoroughly satisfactory. I would further suggest that the Committee consider the advisability of, later on, visiting the provincial points, because the work of caring for the returned soldiers is largely a matter of provincial activity and each province has its own machinery. I notice that, according to Boiirinot, a Committee of the House of Com- mons can be authorized " to adjourn its sittings from place to place," as may be found expedient, so I think we would have no difficulty in securing the necessary power to enable us to visit the principal city in each military division, if we deem it advisable to do so, either as a body or by delegating power to sub-committees. I would also suggest that the members of the Committee consider the advisability of promoting criticisms before the Committee, in fact, of inducing people who are under the impression that the present system has not worked adequately, tp come here and state wherein they think the present system has broken down. In such cases we would require, perhaps, 48 hours' notice so that we might officially notify the person who comes as witness. In all such cases the expenses of the person offering testimony would be paid. It has been suggested that in case we wish to examine a certain num- ber of people who might have criticisms to offer that the Secretary of the Provincial , Soldiers' Aid Commission at the several points we intend to visit, may make that fact known in the newspapers, and would let us know in advance the witnesses that might be available. Subsequently in our work, probably, we would be glad to receive sug- gestions from citizens who may feel they have valuable experience to offer the Com- mittee when we come to determine upon any recommendations they may make to Parliament. In a book that was published in 1916 by the Military Hospitals Commis- sion of Canada, I notice in the introduction by Colonel the Hon. John S. MacLennan some paragraphs regarding the returned soldier which I would like to read to the Committee. (Heads) : " When he lands in Canada he is met by a representative of the Military Hospitals Commission and the Canadian Patriotic Fund. While at the port of landing he is maintained in an establishment beautified by donations. When he leaves for his home, the Military Hospitals Commission representative wires to the local committee advising the train on which the man will arrive. If the journey is so long that a break or breaks are necessary, say at Montreal and Winnipeg, on the road to the Western provinces, at each of sucli places, the local committees meet the man and see to his rest and refresliment until he resvmies his journey. On his arrival at his home town he is met and welcomed (the supply of automobiles rarely is inadequate). The notifications to the various parties charging themselves with these services, often performed at inconvenient hours, are sent out by the Military Hospitals Commission.'' " Provincial and local committees find the man employment; so far, without the slightest difficulty. The invalided who requires further treatment, goes to a Military Hospital Commission Convalescent Hospital. The State supplies any artificial limbs required and special attention is given to make them most effi- cient. When his treatment is complete, he is, like the man who goes directly home, taken charge of by the Pr/ Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Why should he have been kept there? — A. I cannot answer that. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Class One is composed of men for immediate discharge without a pension, whose disability is not the result of service or involving claim as a result of or aggra- vation by service; he should have not gone over there in that case? — A. I would not go as far as that. By the Chairman: Q. '' The financial instructions and pay and allowances for the Canadian Expe- ditionary Force defines the men of Class One as: " Men for immediate discharge without pension (a) Unfit for overseas service, but capable to take up their previous civi- lian occupation. (6) Disability not the result of service or involving claim as the result of or aggravation by service." They are men unfit for military duty but who are fit to go back to civilian life? — A. Exactly. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. That is men who are unfit for military duty and yet fit for civilian life; they should never have. gone over. — A. I would not go as far as that. By Mr. Pardee: Q. You cannot speak of that anyway. — A. Not of the men going over there, because I do not know anything about that. By the Chairman: Q. These men in Class One are men unfit for military service but fit for ordinary life, who require no hospital treatment? — A. Yes. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. I have come across the concrete case of a man who came back physically unfit by reason of heart trouble. He was told that his disease had not been aggravated by the war, and was dismissed without compensation or pension ; he is home now and has received no grant in any way or form; the inference is that he was that way when he enlisted. Do you have any cases of that kind? — A. I have never come across any case of that kind where a man has not been given' the benefit of the doubt by the Board at the Depot. Q. Take the case of a man who comes back by reason of defective eyesight, even if that defect has not been aggravated by reason of the war, is he not entitled to some consideration? — A. No, under this Class One, his defective eyesight has not become aggravated by reason of the war. Q. What is he returned for? — A. Because it was found on the other side that he was not fit for service. ' , Q. Why was he not fit for service? — A. Because his eyesight was bad. Q. Then why was he taken over there in the first place? — iV. Because they did not know it. Q. That is the point I want to make. He was taken over there because they did not know his eyesight was bad. — A. Exactly [Colonel Sharpies.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 11 I By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Are you receiving men returned here for a period of convalescence who are afterwards returned overseas ? — A. That is settled by the Medical Board after a period of convalescence. By the Chairman: Q. These men are not convalescents. The Class One that we are dealing with now is composed of men requiring no hospital treatment who are discharged without a I)ension? — A. Exactly. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Men who have not been deteriorated by reason of the war? — A. Yes. Mr. MiDDLEBRO: All those who have been improperly admitted into the service; is not that what it means ? The Chairman : Probably all those who have been improperly admitted into the service will fall into Class One, but not all Class One will be men who were improperly admitted into the service. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Will you give an instance where men have been admitted to the service, impro- perly, suffering from ailments which could not have been detected at the time of their enlistment? — A. Take a man who is suffering from tuberculosis; it is, as you know, pretty hard for a medical man examining a man as a recruit to detect the existence of the disease in the time he has at his disposal. We have had cases where men have been admitted into the service and shortly afterwards tuberculosis has developed. In such cases the men have been well looked after. They have been taken into the sani- tarium and treated just the same as the men who have been overseas. Q. Yes, but that man is not entitled to a pension? — A. Class One admits men for immediate discharge without a pension (a) who are unfit for overseas service but capable of taking up their previous civilian occupation; and (h) men who are suffering from disability not the result of service or involving claim as the result of or aggrava- tion by service. If the man's disability had been aggravated by service he is entitled to some claim, but either under (a) or (h) I do not think that Class One is confined to those who have improperly entered the service. But in the case I have mentioned a man cannot get a pension because his disability has not been aggravated or received in service. Mr. MiDDLEBRO : There is nobody in Class 1 except those improperly admitted in the first place. By the Chairman: Q. There are three classes, I understand, the men who return and come to your Discharge Depot are by you classified into three classes? — A. Yes, or by the Medical Board. Q. At the Discharge Depot they are classified into three classes? — A. Exactly. Q. Will you give to the committee the distinction between those three classes? — A. Those requiring no further medical treatment and having no claim are discharged at the Depot. , Q. They are supposed to go directly home ? — A. Yes. Q. And Class 2?-— A. Those who require further medical treatment, and who are sent to a hospital or convalescent home, and are not discharged, but are carried on pay. Q. They are still in the service ? — A. Exactly. Q. And Class 3 ? — A. They are men who haye a claim for pension, but who require no further medical treatment; they are discharged. Q. They are as bad as they can be ? — A. Yes, or as well as they can be. Q. But they are men who have suffered grievously? — A. Yes. [Colonel Sharpies.] 12 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. And are eligible for pension? — A. Yes, Q. They are still in the service until pensioned? — A. Still in the service until pensioned. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. How do you classify men who are returned from overseas for treatment in Canada but who expect to be returned to the front after a period of time? — A. They are classified by the Medical Board. But I do not quite understand that question. By the Chairman: Q. They would come into Class 2? — A. Oh, yes. Take for instance, a man put into Class 2, a gunner, at the end of his convalescent term that man is fit for service and instead of discharging him to a pension or Class 1, with a disability that would not prevent him earning a full livelihood, he goes back into the service in which he originally enlisted. By Hon. Mr. Murphy : Q. That is, overseas ? — A. Yes, he is not discharged. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Can you give us figures showing the number returned in that way ? — A. No, i could not do that. By Mr. Pardee : Q. What do you do with a Class 1 man after you find out he is fit, what is the procedure ? — A. We give him a discharge certificate. By the Chairman: Q. May I ask one question before that. Will you describe the method in which the Medical Board at the Discharge Depot examines the man, and what that examina- tion consists of. It consists first of looking over the record which comes from the other side, does it not? — A. They have the English Medical Board as a guide to go on. Q. They have the report of the Medical Board in England? — A. And all special- ists' reports as well. Q; How complete an examination is that man subjected to by the Medical Board at Quebec before he is classified? — A. It is impossible for me to say that. He is stripped and examined. As far as I can tell as a layman, I do not think they leave very much to chance. Mr. Bennett : I think the Medical Superintendent should speak upon that point. I'his gentleman is a layman. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. Have you any report of the examination of that man in this coimtry when he enlisted? — A. We have a record of the state of his health when he enlisted on his attestation paper. Hon. Mr. Belcoukt: There are no details, only the conclusion that he is fit. The Chairman : Will you undertake to file with the Committee for record copies of tlie card statement, the complete statement, which is prepared with reference to the first, second and third classes at the Discharge Depot. You have a complete form, and I would like the Committee to be made aware of the data, that go into this form. Will you also state where this record is kept? With the permission of the Committee I would like to have the form required to be filled in at the Discharge Depot put in as Appendix 1 to our report. [Colonel Sharpies.] RECEPTIOy, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 13 By Mr. Pardee: Q. Col. Sharpies, will you please tell us what you do with these men in Classes 1, 2 and 3? — A. The Class 1 man is a discharged man; he is given his discharge certifi- cate and his balance of pay plus 15 days' pay, a suit of clothes or a credit in lieu there- of; he is given his transportation home, and that is the end of him. Q. That is all he gets? — A. I shouJd have said that a description of the man and record is sent on to the Provincial secretaries so that he can be found employment. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. And what does he receive? — A. Full pay, plus fifteen days' pay and allowance. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Then you are through with that man? — A. Yes, through with him. By the Chairman: Q, \Vhere will his record be on file?? — A. At the Discharge Depot, the Military Hospitals Commission here, and the unit he is going to, as well as with the provincial secretary, of course. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Did you say the unit he is going to ? — A. I mean the district he is going to. By Mr. Pardee: Q. You might finish up the three classes. — A. Class No. 2 men are not discharged; they are given an advance of pay at the Discharge Depot and they are sent forward to the different districts nearest their homes, or to the place where medical treatment would be better administered: amputation cases would go to Toronto, and rheumatic cases to some other sanitarium. Q. They are given an advance of pay? — A. Yes. Q. To what extent? — A. $10 at the Depot to carry them through on the trains, and the balance of pay due them is sent by registered mail so that they may get it when they arrive at their homes. Q. Is that the last you see of them? — A. The last we see of them at the Depot. Q. Now, you send their pay ahead to whom? — A. To the Officer Commanding the imit to which the man is going. Q. To the Hospital ?— A. Yes. Q. To the district or to the unit? — A. The unit. Q. Take the next class? — A. Class 3 is dealt with in very much the same way, with the exception that in certain cases the Class 3 man is allowed to go direct from the Depot to his home. If that is the case and he is a reliable man — ^which depends upon his behaviour at the depot — he is given his money. Q. The whole of it that is coming to him? — A. Yes. If he is not a reliable man, and the Officer Commanding does not thinlv he is, because he has been drinking or otherwise misbehaving, his money is sent by registered mail so that it will be at his house when he arrives so that his family will have it. Q. In the case of a man without an arm or a leg is he fitted there, or fitted later when he gets to his home with a false arm or leg? — A. No, sir. All that I am res- ponsible for is that the man is sent to the centre where he is to be fitted. For instance, a man without a leg will be sent to Toronto with escort to look after him; he is not allowed to go alone. Q. I see. — A. He is sent on and handed over. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. He is still under pay? — A. Yes, he is a soldier. t [Colonel Sharpies.] 14 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Pardee: Q. Later on the pension for that man is arrang'ed? — A. I do not know about that. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. You do not mean to say that a man coming from Halifax would be sent to Toronto if he required an artificial limb ? — A. Yes, sir, he is. Q, Is there no place in the east where he could be sent? — A. Toronto is the orthopaedic centre. Mr. Ross : I do not think it would be the centre for the whole Dominion. The Chairman : It is a matter of some months to fit a man properly with an artifi- cial limb. The Witness : That is a medical question. It depends a good deal upon the con- dition of the man's system and the circumstances of the case; I would not like to make any statement in that regard. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. The man remains at the Orthopaedic Hospital until his leg is fitted ? — A. Until the artificial leg fits him. Q. But you do not know the details of the system that is followed ? — A. I do not, sir. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Has any man so fitted with., an arm or leg ever returned to the trenches? — A. As a fighting man, do you mean? Q. I mean to sen^e either in the trenches or to engage in work behind. — A. Not as far as I know. Q. You do not know of any such case? — A. No, I know of no Canadian. By the Chairman: Q. Have you any statistics which would disclose how many men of the several classes have passed through the Discharge Depot? — A. Personally I have not, sir, but I am sure the Secretary of the Military Hospitals Commission must have that information. « Q. Who could give us those figures? — A. The Secretary of the Military Hospitals Commission. By Hon. Mr. Beauhien: Q. Are we to understand that it is only at Toronto they furnish artificial limbs ? — A. That is correct. Q. If a man lives in Halifax he must travel to Toronto to get his limb and then have to go back? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. That may involve half a dozen trips? — A. No. Q. The man has to stay there until the artificial limb is fitted? — A. The man does not go there until his stump is in. condition. Then he stays to have it fitted and pro- perly attended to. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. The man is kept in the hospital there? — A. He is kept there and looked after. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Under pay? — A. All the time. His allowance is continued until he is dis- charged. [Colonel Sharpies.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 15 By Mr. Pardee: Q. You say the men get credit or get their clothing. How do they get credit? Is the money sent to their homes? — A. The money is included on their final pay cheque. Q. Do I understand that the men can go out and buy so much worth of clothing? —A. Yes, they can do that if they like to, but there are a certain number of suits kept in the depot ranging from GOO to 1,000 suits, where a man can go and make a selection. If he wants to select a suit ofl clothes it is there for him to select. Some men do not want to take those, they would rather take the money. We give them that choice so that they will be satisfied. Q. The clothes they take from the storehouse, is the cost deducted from their money? — A. No, sir, it is the other way. They are given a free issue. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. What do you allow the men in lieu of clothes? — A. $13. By the Chairman: Q. In the published "Financial Instructions for the Canadian Expeditionary Force, 1916," page 88, appears the following with respect to clothing. (Eeads) : There is a large selection of suits of clothes and there are several different kinds of overcoats: (a) a long coat, suitable for the Maritime Provinces or British Coliunbia; (b) a short coat, lined with ponyskin, with fur-lined collar; (c) a short coat, lined with sheepskin, and (d) a reefer coat lined with leather; (b), (c) and (d) being suitable for any part of Canada. Is that the selection which the men are being allowed to-day? — A. Yes. Q. Where are those clothes obtained, and how ? — A. I could not say. Q. What department has the purchasing of these clothes? Is it done by the Military Supplies Purchasing Board? — A. It is done by the Quartermaster General's Branch, as I think it is called. Q. Do the men go out of uniform on discharge ? — A. At the moment of discharge. Q. What is the regulation in that respect? — A. The regulation is that on dis- charge the soldier goes out of uniform. Q. But so long as he is not discharged? — A. He retains the uniform. He always retains his uniform but he does not wear it. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. How many of the three classes have passed through since you began? — A. About 16,000, speaking roughly. Q. You have been there since the system started? — A. Yes. Q. You must have some suggestions as to how the existing system may be improved. Hon. Mr. Murphy: He has probably put them all into effect. A. Speaking honestly, I do not think so. My duties are to carry out the instruc- tions of the Department. Mr. MiDDLEBRO : I know that, but from your experience, is there nothing you could suggest whereby the existing system may be improved? The Witness : I do not think so. If you saw the Depots you would be inclined to agree that every possible thing that could be done has been done in every instance. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. What is the most frequent complaint you get from the men ? — A. We never get any complaints from the men at the depot. [Colonel SharDle.s.1 16 SPECIAL C031MITTEE—C.E.F.— RETURNED S0LD1ER,% Q. No complaints at all ? — A. In fact we have letters and statements from the men that things are all right. The only complaints we do get some times are on account of food. A man perhaps does not like the food and it is immediately changed. You can naturally understand that a sick man would sometimes like a little different diet, and a change is always made as soon as we know about it. Q. You have never received complaints from men that they have got into the wrong class — A. I do not deal with that at all. By the Chairman: Q. Where are the Discharge Depots, and who are in charge of them? — A. The Depots are located at Halifax, St. John and Quebec. The Quebec Depot is under the charge of Colonel Marriott; Halifax, in charge of Major Adamson; and St. John, in charge of Major Smith. Q. At the present time each of these three depots would serve to illustrate your work if the Committe should decide to visit them?— A. Quebec is the largest depot; 80 per cent of the men go through it. By Mr. Bennett: Q. At the present time the St. John Depot is the one in operation, the Quebec Depot is closed, is it not? — A. No, sir. The men all go through Quebec except those whose homes are in the Maritime Provinces. By the Chairman: Q. Quebec has always been the main Discharge Depot ? — A. That is right, sir. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Can you give us the sub-division of the three classes and the number of men in each? — A. I could give it to you, but not off-hand. The Chairman : If the Committee wishes that information, Col. Sharpies will be glad to furnish it so that it may go into the records. As I understand it, Col. Sharpies noiw has charge of the discipline of the men in all the hospitals, under the Hospitals Commission. The Witness : That is right, sir. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. And what about the supervision of the work at Quebec? — A. I am still respon sible for Quebec, and I am there constantly. Q. But you mentioned the name of some other officer who is in actual charge. Could he give us evidence with regard to matters at Quebec which have not come within your knowledge since you left? How long is it since you have had actual charge there ? — A. I am still in charge there. Q. But how long since that officer you mentioned was put in charge?— A. He has been there since about two months. By Mr. Boss: Q. How long. would a man have to stay at Quebec in order to be examined? — A. It all depends upon the number of men arriving, but it is a very very short time. For instance we handled 1,100 men at Quebec in ten days. Q. Then some of them would have to stay there ten days? — A. That is the longest any would have to stay, but they do not object to that, they are pretty well entertained in Quebec. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Who has the executive authority in the hospitals of the Commission? — A. Well, in most of the Military Hospitals throughout Canada, there is an administrative [Colonel Sharpies.] RECEPTIOy, TREATMENT AXD RE-EDUCATION 17 officer — I might say before that there has been a Military Hospital Command that ' has been formed. Q, And you are the head of that? — A. I am the officer commanding that Com- mand now. Q. What are your duties? — A. To maintain discipline in the Hospitals; to repre- sent the Adjutant-General, and to see that the medical service is maintained to the satisfaction of all concerned, and further to take charge of the records: we look after the men everywhere. We are supposed to take charge of the Discharge Records and Papers. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Is it necessary to discipline these returned soldiers? — A. Well, I think it is, but the majority of them do not require much disciplining. Of course they are a peculiar class of men to handle; these returned soldiers are all more or less nervous, you cannot handle or discipline them the same as if they were men going overseas. Q. Yes. Does it fall under your jurisdiction to inflict such punishment as may be necessary? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That is wholly with you? — A. Yes. Q. Now what is the nature of the punishment that may be meted out to these men? — A. Well, exactly the same punishment as to any other soldier; these men are under the King's Regulations. But I have found that you can talk to them and get better results than by punishing them when you are dealing with men who are sick and nervous. Q. What I want to get at is, have you, during your occupation of this office, found it necessary to punish certain men, so far? I mean in a military sense? — A. I think at the Discharge Depot I have. Q. What has been the nature of it? — A. Men have been confined to barracks, that is about the nature of it. Q. That is all?— A. Yes. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. What was the nature of the offence? — A. Drunkenness, disobedience and insulting people on the street. Q. Have you anything to do with directing what course of employment a man shall follow, or if he wants to be re-educated? — A. No, he can select that himself, through the vocational officers, who are in charge of these matters ; I have to see that he gets physical training, something that will keep him going. Q. But you have nothing to do with his re-education? Is that not it? — A. Nothing at all. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Were you in civil life until the time the war broke out? — A. No, I have h^f^n in the service all my life. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Do you lay down the rules upon which these hospitals are run? — A. Some of them I do, yes. They are pretty elastic, some of these rules; they have to be. This is to a very large extent new work, and the rules which govern hospitals are not quite suitable in all cases — I am talkinsr altogether of discipline. We are handling a lot of sick men and I have laid down rules which are all more or less elastic. By the Chairman: Q. All the men in the hospitals, I understand, are still soldiers? — A. Almost all. Q. There are no men in the hospitals who have been discharged? — A. There may bo a few from time to time. 28277—2 [Colonel Sharples.l 18 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— G.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. So that the military discipline holds over every man who is still in the Military Hospital ? — A. Except a man who has been discharged and is continued as free patient in a sanitarium, or home, for re-education. Q. Have you any jurisdiction over them? — A. No, legally, we have no jurisdiction over that man. Q. He may be disagreeable as he may like, as you have no restraining power? — A. None at all. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. You get your directions exclusively from the Department, do you not? Or do you get them from the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. No, sir, from the Depart- ment, and I also get certain directions as to administration of the Homes as to what the Military Hospitals Commission wishes done, and I see that it is carried out. Q. But you are responsible to the Department only? — A. I am responsible to the Department and to the Military Hospitals Commission. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Colonel Sharpies, you have been placed in charge of this command? — A. Yes. Q. And the command has established hospitals throughout Canada? — A. Yes. Q. What hospitals have they established — take Eastern Canada — "A" Unit? — A. In Montreal, that is where the Hospitals Commission has established a hospital, but to commence with there is the Savard Park Hospital at Quebec. Q. What is the accommodation there? — A. That has accommodation for 150 patients. Then next is the Grey Nuns' Hospital at Montreal, with accommodation for 300 patients. The third is the Khaki League, Montreal, with accommodation for 99 ; next the Laurentian Sanitarium, and the Laurentian Inn at Ste. Agathe, with accom- modation for 115. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Is that exclusively for the men under your jurisdiction, or is it a general sanitarium? — A. That is exclusively for the men under the control of the Commis- sion. There is also in this unit the Lake Edward Sanitarium, on the Lake St. John Railway, with accommodation for 60. Q. That is exclusively for soldiers, too? — A. Yes, for soldiers, too. Q. So that the civilian patients have left that institution? — A. I do not think they ever had very many, but what they had, have left. Q. That is all for Unit "A" ?— A. All in Unit "A," with headquarters at Montreal. Q. You number your Units by letter? — A. Yes. Q. What is the capacity, roughly speaking, of the Institutions you have just enum- erated ?— A. About 724. Q. That also involves the establishment of separate hospitals, for tuberculous patients for instance? — A. Yes, two — at Ste. Agathe. Q. And Lake Edward?— A. Yes. Q. And those are the only institutions provided for special treatment in "A" Unit for tuberculosis? — A. That is right, sir, yes. Q. Now the next Unit? — A. The next Unit is " B," with headquarters at Halifax. At Pier 2, Halifax, a hospital with accommodation at the present time for 550 patients. The accommodation at Halifax will, later on, be increased to about one thousand. The reason for that is that Halifax is the point for disembarkation. There is also the Clay- ton Home at Halifax, with accommodation for 25, and the Parks Convalescent Home at St. John, has accommodation for 35, and there is a Sanitarium at Kentville. where there will be accommodation, I think, for 100, and the Charles Dalton Sanitarium at Prince Edward Island with an accommodation of 30. There is also the Ross Conval- escent Home, at Sydney, C.B., with accommodation for 33. Q. Those are all the Institutions in "B" Unit? — A. Yes. [Colonel Sharpies.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 19 Q. With accommodation, roughly speaking, for 500 I suppose? — A. More than that, I think, and there is going to be more than that. There are two hospitals in course of co7istruction now. Q. Yes, I am aware of that, but I am speaking of those actually constructed. — A. There is accommodation for about 700. Q. And what proportion of these are special hospitals, and for what purpose? — A, The one No. 2 Pier, is a special Hospital. Q. For what purpose? — A. For receiving the men who come off the ship. Q. By special hospitals, I mean special for the treatment of peculiar diseases. — A. There will be, I have not mentioned it, but there will be Queen's University Hospital. Q. I mean in Unit "B." — A. Dalhousie Hospital, but it is not in operation now. Q. Is there no tuberculosis sanitarium there at all? — A. Yes, at Kentville, N.S., there is one. Q. Is there any other special hospital? — A. No, sir. Q. That exhausts "B" unit, let us have ""C"? — A. I mentioned the Charles Dalton sanitarium also in " B " unit. Q. Is that a special hospital? — A. Yes, for tuberculosis. Q. It is on Prince Edward Island? — A. Yes. Q. Now, let us have " C " unit. By the Chairman: Q. What area is comprised in "C" unit? — ^A. Kingston district. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Is that Military District No. 3 ? — A. Yes. In Ivingston there is the Elmhurst Convalescent Home with accommodation for 42; the Kichardson Convalescent Home with accommodation for 27; the Queen's University Hospital with accommodation for 450; the Mowat Memorial Sanitarium, a tuberculosis institution with accommo- dation for 86. There is the Sir Sandford Fleming Convalescent Home at Ottawa with accommodation for 90; and the Ontario Military Hospital at Cobourg, with accom- modation for 144. Q. The last institution is a special hospital dealing with cases of insanity? — A. With mental cases. Q. With all mental derangements. Now, go to '"' I) " unit? — A. "D" unit is No. 2 Military District, Toronto. There is the Beatty Convalescent IVlilitary Hospital with accommodation for 25 ; thei'e is the Spadina Militarj- Convalescent Home with accommodation for 275. There is a home wliich is to be opened up shortly, the Massey- Treble, which is to be a home for incurables. Q. That is the only home that you have thus far in course of construction for incurable cases, if I am correctly informed? — A. That is right. Q. That will have accommodation for about how many? — A. I think thirty, if I remember rightly. There is the Central Military Hospital, that is the College Hospital, with accommodation for 130. By Mr. Middlelro : Q. The Bishop Strachan School? — A. Yes. There is the Victoria Hospital. Hamilton, with accommodation for 35. There is the Booth Memorial Orthopaedic Hospital, which is not opened yet. I am not certain what number will be put in. By Mr. Bennett: Q. It will deal only with orthoptedic cases? — A. Exactly. There is the Dunedin Military Convalescent Home. Hamilton, with accommodation for 10. Then there is the Oakville Military Convalescent Home. St. Catharines, with accommodation f* 25; and the Wliitby Home with a present accommodation for 450. 28277— 2i [Colonel Sharpies.] 20 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— 'C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Is that the Ladies College? — A. Xo, it is a now institution. There is the Mountain Sanitarium at Hamilton with accommodation for 55; and the Muskoka Free Cottage with accommodation for 40. Q. Is that institution for tuberculosis cases? — A. The last two mentioned are for tuberculosis. That completes the list in " D " imit. Q. They are all in operation except the Massey-Treble ? — A. Yes. Q. New, let us have the next unit? — A. The next is " F " unit, with headquarters at London. By the Chairman: Q. There seems to be no " E " unit?— A. There is no " E " unit. " D " and " E " are combined. " F " unit is at London. There is the Freeport Sanitarium at TCit- ohener with accommodation for 33; the Victoria Hospital in London which has accommodation for 130 ; and the Byron Sanitarium, London, which has accommodation for 40, and which will shortly be increased, and about which the Medical Department can tell you more fully. Q. Those are all under your command? — A. Yes. There is the Guelph institution which is to be opened shortly. Q. What is the accommodation there? — A. About 500. Q. Is that a special hospital? — A. It will be a hospital devoted particularly to vocational training because all their plant is there. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q, Is it a new building? — A. I could not say, I have never seen it. I believe it is practically a new building, that is to say within recent years, Q. You were speaking of those hospitals actually in existence? — A. The next unit is " G " with headquarters in Winnipeg. The Deer Lodge Military Convalescent Hos- pital has accommodation for 45; the Grange Hospital has accommodation for 55. There is the Ninette Sanitarium with accommodation for 30. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Is that a special institution? — A. It is for tuberculosis. Then the Immigra- tion Hall is used as a Clearing Depot, and there is accommodation for 110, but the number varies, it has to be kept clear all the time. Q. It meets all the demands? — A. Exactly. There is the Keefer Convalescent Home at Fort William, with accommodation for 25. I have not mentioned, purposely, because it is not under my charge, the Old Agricultural College which will have accom- modation for 600 to 1,000. Q. Is that in Military District No. 8 ?— A. No, No. 10, unit " G." The next is "H" unit, in Eegina. There is the St. Oliads Convalescent Home with accommoda- tion for 45, and the Y.M.C.A. Building at Saskatoon with accommodation for 150. Q. That has recently been taken over?— A. Yes, and there are other arrangements to be made in that district. Q. These are the only institutions in operation at the present time? — A. I have been talking of nothing that is not in operation. By Mr. Fardee: Q. What district does "H" unit cover? — A. Saskatchewan, the whole province. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Now take district No. 13? — A. That is "I" unit with headquarters at Cal- gary. The Ogden Military Hospital has accommodation for 140. There is the Immi- gration Building with accommodation for 100, which is used as a clearing depot. There is the Strathcona Military Hospital which is a going concern fully equipped, with accommodation for 150. There is the Frank Sanitarium with accommodation for 64. [Colonel Sharpies.] Ulll RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 21 Q. That is a special hospital ? — A. A special tuberculosis hospital. These are the its today in operation in District 13. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. To one of those buildinj^s in Calgary you applied the term " clearing hos- pital " ? — A. That is where the men come off the train and are evacuated and cleared from there to Ogden, irank, or Edmonton. By Mr. Bennett: Q. The Immigration llall at Winnipeg is used in the same way? — A.. Yes. It is fitted up so that the men can rest after their journey, see their friends, and go on to the various places to which they are assigned for treatment. By the Chairman: Q. When a man is forwarded from the Discharge Depot, we will say at Quebec, is he sent directly to one of those hospitals, or is he sent to the provincial distribution depot and thence to the proper hospital ? — A. He is sent to the distribution centre, sir. Q. How many distribution centres are there? — A. There is one in each centre. Q. For each unit? — A. \es. These are exceptionally large ones— these units are. Q. So far as I understand the procedure, a Class 2 man, after he has been eva- cuated from Quebec, is sent to the distribution depot ? — A. Exactly. Q. Of the provincial unit, and from that distribution depot is assigned to the hospital where he shall serve his convalescence? — A. That is right, sir. He goes from Quebec and reports Q, To Toronto, for example? — A. where he is taken to Spadina, and he is given a pass to go home — nearly every man goes home for a while according to his disability — and after ten days or a fortnight he comes back and reports. Q. At the distribution depot of the unit ? — A. Exactly. And he is sent from there, if he is a tubercular case Q. To whatever hospital is necessary for his treatment? — A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Tell us now your accommodation in British Columbia in "J" unit? — A. In ' J " unit we have Esquimalt Convalescent Hospital with accommodation for 110, at Rest Haven Convalescent Home, Sidney, B.C., the number is 160. Tranquille Sani- tarium, 32. Q. Where is that located? — A. Right opposite Kamloops. Sunnyview Sanitarium, Kamloops, B.C., 20. Balfour, B.C., which is one of the tuberculosis sanatoria, 70. Q. That is not far from Frank? — A. Not far from Frank. At the present time, the accommodation is for 70, but we shall have more. Q. That exhausts your statement as to existing accommodation? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Of the accommodation now erected, how much is available? — A. Sometimes about 10 per cent, but it varies from day to day. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Nine per cent is in use? — A. Nine per cent is in use. Q. Now, what accommodation have you in preparation? — A. I am not altogetlier familiar with all the accommodation which is in preparation. Q. Some witness from the Hospitals Commission can speak as to that? — A. Yes. I take over the Institutions as they are handed to me. [Colonel Sharpies.] 22 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Will you tell the Committee how these units are constituted ? — A. Let me say first of all, that it is the desire of the Commission that all the men employed in the Hospitals Commission shall be returned officers or men. Q. That is class No. 1, including even medical men if you can get them? — A. Yes. Q. Now describe the constitution ?— A. As I have already said, the majority of the men employed are returned men. Each unit is commanded by a IMajor or Captain. Q. To whom is he responsible? — A. He is responsible to me. He has an Adjutant and in every Home containing over 50 men, there is a Lieutenant in charge. Q. That officer stays on the premises?— A. He is always on the premises. Q. In charge of the Home. — A. Exactly. He is responsible for the discipline. Q. Now give us the medical constitution? — A. There is a resident medical man in each large Home. The medical arrangements are carried out under the A.D.M.S. of the districts, who are responsible to the Director General here and also the Medical Superintendent of the Military Hospitals Commission. Q. That is Colonel Thompson? — A. Colonel Thompson. By the Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Who is the Director General? — A. Colonel Potter. By Mr. Bennett: Q. The constitution of the Commission is as you have described, and it .follows military lines? — A. Exactly. Q. The medical end of it is under the supervision of Colonel Thompson, and is under the direct control of the Director General of Medical Services? — A. Yes. Q. That is the story, is it? — A. He carries out the policy of the Commission. Q. I was coming to that? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. Are the nurses and orderlies in this hospital under your control? — A. Yes, for discipline only. Q. Do I understand that every inmate of the hospital, whether an employee or a patient, is, for disciplinary purposes, under your Commission? — A. Exactly. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You are the Commanding Officer in charge of all the military operations in connection with the hospitals in Canada for caring for returned soldiers, that is your present position? — A. That is my present position. Q. There is no question as to that? — A. No, sir. Q. And for the purposes of carrying out the duties for which you are appointed, there are Majors in charge of these units in each district? — A. Exactly. Q. And they work out their own salvation under you? — A. Under me. Q. And you are responsible for the discipline in every one of these institutions? —A. I am, sir. These units are also military units, and the necessary co-ordination is maintained. Q. The medical end of it is primarily under the supervision of Colonel Thompson? — A. Exactly. Q. And these commissions co-ordinate their efforts under the direction of the whole military niedical service of Canada ?^A. Yes. Q. Up to the present moment, how many patients have passed through these hospitals? — A. I could not give you that information off-hand. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. Have you sufficient accommodation for all the soldiers who have returned? — A. Yes, the accommodation is quite sufficient in most of the districts. [Colonel Sharpies.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDXJ CATION 23 By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Could you give us a statement showing the number of men who can be accom- modated in the hospitals and convalescent homes, and also the number that can be accommodated in the special hospitals set apart for the purpose? — A. Do you mean the number of beds in each hospital? Q. I mean the number of men that can be accommodated in each class of hospital . to-day? — A. Yes, I can give you that information. Q. Can joxi also state the average time spent by the soldiers in hospital? — A. No, I have not got that information. The system has not been working sufficiently long to enable us to get reliable statistics covering the entire ground. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Under whose authority are men discharged? — A. Under the authority of the Adj utant-G eneral. By Mr. Bennett: Q. But is it carried out through you ? — A. It is carried out through me. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. You spoke of orthopaedic hospitals, and tuberculosis sanatoria; have you any other special hospitals of any kind except those? — A. No. Q. You have no special hospitals for example, for venereal diseases? — A. No. Q. Is there anything being done to-day in connection with such cases? — A. Men are being treated for veaiereal diseases in special wards in the Military Hospitals, but , there are no special hospitals for such cases. By the Chairman: Q. Are such cases segregated? — A. That I could not say. Such treatment as there is, is carried out in the Military Hospitals. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. You have no special hospitals for treating mentally unsound cases? — A. We have one, sir. Q. Are such cases very common? — A. Not very common. Q. I understand that there is a hospital at Kingston? — A. At Cobourg. Q. What is the accommodation there? — A. There is accommodation for 150 cases. By Mr. Bennett: Q. As to the rationing of these hospitals, the feeding of the patients, the determin- ing of diets, and matters of that kind — how are they dealt with? The rationing of the hospitals, who looks after that? — A. The matrons and the housekeepers, the con- trollers. Q. The matrons are responsible under you? — A. Yes, the Commanding Officer is responsible for everything under his command. Q. Just as the District Officer Commanding, in each district, would be, from a military standpoint? — A. He is responsible for everything in his unit, but the Com- mission is responsible for the feeding and supplies. The officer commanding the Unit is responsible for everything in connection with his Unit. Q. To the same extent, having regard to the character of the work, as the District Officer commanding the district is for everything in that district? — A. Practically. Q. To the same extent as you are responsible to the Minister? — A. Certainly. Q. And in case of dispute between yourself and Colonel Thompson? — A. It depends, sir, upon whoever backs down first. There, really, could not be a difference of opinion in that way, because our work is so far apart. For instance I would not dare to differ from Colonel Thompson on a medical question, and I do not think he would differ from me on a question of an administrative nature. [Colonel Sharpies.] 24 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.-RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. And he is responsible to the Hospitals Commission?— A. Yes. Q. But if a dispute should arise who would determine ?— A. The Adjutant- General would settle that. Q. It would be in the Militia Department?— A. Yes. The CnAiKMAN : I wish you would have prepared for us a map showing the areas " A ", " B ", " C ", " D ", etc., showing the discharge depots and their locations, show- ing the location in each area of the distributing depots, and also showing the locations of all your hospitals. I would like to have it prepared in black and white, so that a cut can be made of it and filed on the record with the rest of the documents. Mr. Mjddlebro: In the Military Hospitals Commission special bulletin of April 16, there is an article by Dr. C. K. Clarke, of Toronto, in which he explains the different methods of treatment at the ordinary asylums for the insane, and at the end of the article there is a note: — " The Commission has already given the matter of which Dr. Clarke writes its careful consideration, and has made arrangements to provide a properly equipped institution for sufferers of this type." AVhat institution does that specially refer to? — A. The one at Cobourg. Q. And it is the Cobourg institution you refer to? — A. Yes. Q. What accommodation has the institution now? — A. One hundred and fifty of the type you are thinking of. Q. \\'ould provision for 150 be sufficient do you thinks — A. It has been, so far, they are cleared very quickly, those cases. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. In the matter of operation of your unit, Colonel Sharpies, what is your obser- vation as to the most convenient class of hospitals? — A. I think the hospital of from 100 to 300 patients is the easiest hospital to manage. Q. You get better results from a hospitdl of that size ? — A. We get better results. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. And they are more economical to operate? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Beauhien: Q. In making your map. Colonel Sharpies, will you put in the capacity of each Hospital ? The Chairman : That is what we want, its capacity and its character. Hon Mr. Belcourt : And how much of its capacity is now taken up ? The Witness : We have all those records, and I will furnish the information. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Have you complaints to any extent from the men in the Hospitals? Are there many complaints from the men regarding insiifficient food, or treatment or from any other cause? — A. No, I have never had any complaints from the men as to their treat- ment at all. The only complaints I have received have been with regard to questions of food, such as you might expect from a sick man. By the Chairman: Q. Would it be regarded as a' breach of discipline for a soldier in one of these hospitals to write you and make complaint? — A. It would not, under ordinary cir- cumstances, but in this particular class of cases that we are handling we have made these men understand that if they have any complaint we want them to let us know. Q. Through what channel can a soldier, without breach of discipline, make that complaint ? — A. Ho can always parade before his C. O. [Colonel Sharpies] RECEPTIOy, TREATMENT AXD RE-EDUCATIOX 25 *Q. And will that complaint reach you? — A. Oh, yes. Q. Have you had many complaints. — A. No, sir, very few. Q. But there is no disability or obstacle in the way of any of the soldiers in these hospitals making their complaints and having them heard? — A. None at all, they are asked every day at their mid-day meal if there are any complaints. Q. Have you such a thing as " complaint-boxes " in the Hospitals, into -which complaints may be dropped by the men — have you anything of that kind? — A. No, sir. By Mr. Bennett: Q. I daresay you have seen in the press, statements that there has been a lack of accommodation and that there have been a number of cases that could not be accommo- dated. That, I understand, is not so? — A. Not to my knowledge — there has been no lack of accommodation generally as far as I know. Q. And you would know? — A. Yes. Q. And there has also been the statement that a very large number of rheumatic cases were coming to Canada. Have you any statistics as to that? — A. There have not been any complaints that rheumatic patients in Canada have not received proper treatment. By the Chairman : Q. Have you any idea how many patients there are in England that it is intended to send back to Canada within the next few months? — A. I would not like to say how many there are coming altogether, but I understand that we are getting patients back at the rate of 600 per month. By Eon. Mr. Beaubien: Q. Are you cramped for space in any of the General Hospitals? — A. No, sir, we are not cramped. By Hon. Mr. Murphy : Q. Do you receive advance notice of those who are coming? — A. Yes, always. Q. How long in advance of their arrival? — A. A week, a good week. Q. By letter or cable? — A. By cable. By the Chairman : Q. There comes back with each man, if I understand rightly, in the possession of the Commanding Officer who comes with the group of returned men, his whole dossier, his medical dossier, his coming back dossier, and his Paymaster's statement? — A. Quite right, sir. Q. These papers are placed in whose hands on the arrival of the man from the other side? — A. In the hands of the officer commanding the Discharge Depot. Q. Not to the man himself? — A. No, sir. Q. They are there in the hands of the Officer Commanding the Discharge Depot when the man comes up for examination by the Medical Board? — A. The medical history sheet is. As a matter of fact the INfedical Board have access to all the papers. Q. Where does the man's record go after he leaves the Discharge Depot? — A. It follows the man right clean through. If he goes to Toronto these papers go with him. Q. Is there a duplicate at Ottawa? — A. No. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q, Have cases come to your knowledge where men have been returned from Eng- land suffering from a medical disability of long standing contracted before they left Canada ? — A. Yes, there have been some cases of that sort. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt : Q. Tuberculosis, for instance? The Witness: Do you mean men suffering from tuberculosis? tColonel Sharpies.] 26 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F. -RETURNED SOLDIERS Brigadier-General IfAsox : I mean men suffering from some medical disability of sufficiently long standing to have existed when they left Canada. The Witness : Well, there have been cases of tuberculosis that have developed by aggravation of service which I believe — of course, it is hard for me to answer that question, not being a medical man. Brigadier-General Mason: Was it some physical disability? The Chairman: I think we will get that information from Col. Potter. Witness discharged. Col. Alfred T. Thompson, M.P., chief medical officer, Military Hospitals Com- mission, called, sworn and examined. The Chairman: I think, gentlemen, we might ask Colonel Thompson to describe for our benefit the work of the Military Hospitals Commission, as he is their chief medical officer. Colonel Thompson : The work of the Military Hospitals Commission, as it has developed in a medical way, may be divided into different groups of work or phases of work in this way. By the Chairman: Q. Would you be good enough. Colonel, first to give us the method of your con- stitution and the authority under which you are constituted. How was the Military Hospitals Commission created in the first place? — A. The Military Hospitals Com- mission was created by Order in Council. Q. Of the 12th of October, 1915 ?— A. Possibly. The Chairman : With the permission of the Committee I would like to put in as evidence this Order in Council, which was published in Bulletin No. 2 of the Military Hospitals Commission, Jime, 1916. The Witness : Subsequent Orders in Council were passed to extend the scope of its work and extending its powers. The Chairman : Please file those also. Certified Copy of a Eeport of the Committee of the Privy Council, No. 2412, approved by His Eoyal Highness the Governor General on the 14th October, 1915. The Committee of the Privy Council have had before them a report, dated 8th October, 1915, from the Eight Honourable the Prime Minister, recommending as follows : — 1. That a commission, hereafter to be called the "Military Hospitals and Con- valescent Homes Commission," the short title of which shall be the "Military Hos- pitals Commission," be appointed to deal with the provision of hospital accommoda- tion and military convalescent homes in Canada, for officers, non-commissioned officers and men of the Canadian Expeditionary Force who return invalided from the front, and for officers, non-commissioned officers and men invalided while on active service in Canada, Bermuda, or elsewhere. 2. That the following be invited to serve on the said Commission: — President — The Honourable .1. A. Lougheed, P.C, K.C. Members — The Honourable Thomas W. Crothers, P.C, K.C. 1). Lome !McGibbon, Esq., Montreal, P.Q. Frederick W. Avery, Esq., Ottawa, Ont. W. M. Dobell, Esq., Quebec, P.Q. Hon. Colonel Sir Eodolphe Forget, Kt., M.P., Montreal, P.Q. W. K. George, Esq., Toronto, Ont. Lloyd Harris, Esq., Brantford, Ont. [Colonel Alfred T. Thompson.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 27 J. S. H. Matson, Esq., Victoria, B.C. John S. McLennan, Esq., Sydney, N.S. Colonel Sir H. M. Pellatt, Esq., C.V.O., Toronto, Ont. Lieutenant-Colonel C. W. Rowley, Winnipeg, Man. Clarence Smith, Esq., Montreal, P.Q. Lieutenant-Colonel Thomas Walker, M.D., St. John, N.B. Smeaton White, Esq., Montreal, P.Q. The Director General of Medical Services, Canadian Militia. 3. That the members (the Director-General of Medical Services excepted) be paid ten dollars ($10) per day or personal expenses in addition to actual railroad fare expenses, while attending the meetings of the Commission, or while othenvise specially engaged in the conduct of its aft'airs. f4. That the Commission be empowered to appoint a Secretary and to obtain clerical and other necessary assistance as may be needed; provided that the pay and allowance of any appointees in receipt of more than one thousand five hundred dollars ($1,500) per annum be submitted for the approval of the Governor General in Council. 5. That the Secretary, when away from the office of the Commission on the business of the Commission, Ije paid eight dollars ($8) per day for personal expen.ses in addition to actual railroad fare expenses. 6. That the Commission be empowered to select Medical and Nursing Stalls, and to appoint such other personnel as may be needed for the management of Hospitals and Homes; provided that a general schedule of pay and allowance be submitted to approval by the Governor in Council. 7. That it be empowered to recommend to tlie Governor in Council any expenditure which it may consider necessary for the treatment and care of the sick and wounded- including the purchase of supplies and equipment, or for the organization, adminis- tration and maintenance of Hospitals and Homes and to expend any moneys for the purposes and to the amount authorized from time to time by the Governor in Council. 8. That it be empowered to call in the aid of any Department of the Federal Administration; in particular to use the machinery of the Militia Department, and where desirable, to draw on the Department for supplies, stores and equipment, and to utilize the services of Divisional and District Staffs. 9. That any expenditure incurred by the Commission under the authority of the Governor in Council be made a charge against the War Appropriation Vote, or when that ceases to be operative, against any other available appropriation made by Parliament for the purpose. 10. That it be empowered to accept such funds, bequests and legacies as may be given or devised by individuals or Corporations or others, with autliorit;s\ subject to the approval of the Governor in Council, to make all exix?nditure, and to administer any funds, bequests or legacies on behalf of such members of the Canadian Expe- ditionary Force, as in the judgment of the Commission may be entitled thereto, and for the purpose of carrying out such objects and purposes as may be determined by the Commission. 11. That it be empowered to deal with the question of employment for members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force on their return to Canada, and to co-operate with Provincial Governments and others^ for the purjwse of providing employment as may be deemed necessary. 12. That the Military Hospitals Commission shall report to the Governor in Council from time to time as to the general plan or scheme which it prop>oses and through its President it shall have direct access to the Governor in Council. [Colonel Alfred T. Thompson.] 28 SPE<^IAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS The Minister further reconiraends that the Order in Council of the 30th June. 1915 (F.C. 1540) appointing a Commission to be termed the " Hospital Commission" be cancelled and the foregoing substituted in lieu thereof. The Connnittee concur in the above recommendations of the Eight Honourable the Prime Minister and submit the same for approval. (Sgd.) RODOLPHE BOUDREAU, Clerk of the Privy Coimcil. P.C. 1472. CEUTrpiED Copy of a Keport of the Committee of the Privy Council, approved hy His Royal Highness the Governor General, on the 29th June, 1916. The Committee of the Privy Council have had before them a report, dated June 17, 1916, from the Honourable Sir James A. Lougheed, president of the Military Hos- pitals Commission, stating that the Military Hospitals and Cbnvalescent Homes Commission, acting under Order in Council No. 2412, dated October 12, 1915, has given a large amount of study and consideration to the question of the vocational training of members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force and also of the reservists of the forces of Great Britain and of His Majesty's Allies in the present war, such reservists having been bona fide residents of Canada at the outbreak of the war, who will be unable to return to their previous occupations by reason of their disability incurred on service. The duty of the State to provide training for some new occupa- tion for those so disabled has been recognized by all the nations now at war. The Com- mission is of the opinion that the restoration of a disabled man to the fullest possible productive capacity is alike a duty and a step of economic and social wisdom and in its study of the question the Commission has found many evidences that the people of Canada are strongly in favour of suitable provision being made for training to this end. The Commission has received the assurance of the active co-operation of the prov- inces and various municipalities in the Dominion in carrying out such a policy. Technical schools, agricultural colleges and other public institutions have agreed to receive disabled men for training and many offers have also been received from private commercial establishments to provide training and subsequent employment when the men have become proficient. The period of training for a new vocation will vary according to the previous education and industrial history of each individual. The cost of tuition will vary in consequence and also from the fact that in many cases the tuition will be free or the fees nominal. The Commission has already undertalven the provision of opportimities for train- ing in general subjects and elementary educational work for all men under treatment in the various convalescent hospitals and homes being operated by the Commission irrespective of whether or not such men will later on be subjects for vocational train- ing leading to a new occupation. In a few cases arrangements have also been made for special vocational training leading to new occupations. The Commission is not able, however, to put into operation a general scheme of vocational training through the utilization of the various facilities which have been offered for the purpose or otherwise until there has been determined a scale of main- tenance for the men undergoing training and their dependents. When a man enlists for overseas service he receives the following pay : One dollar and ten cents ($1.10) per diem if living in barracks, or one dollar and seventy cents per diem ($1.70) if living at home. If he is married his wife receives separation allow- [ Colonel Alfred T. Thompson.] RECEPTION, TKEATMEXT AND RE-EDVCATION 29 ance of twenty dollars ($20) per month. In addition the Patriotic Fund contributes on the average from ten to twenty dollars ($10 to $20) per month according to the part of Canada in which the family is residing. On the return of a wounded or invalided man he continues to, receive these amounts as long as he remains under treat- meat whether in a convalescent home, a hospital or in his own home with the exception of the Patriotic Fund allowance, which ceases upon his arrival in Canada. The Commission is of opinion that the foregoing rate of pay is too high in the case of single men who are not trained by the Government and provided with free training for a new vocation, while in the case of married men it is too arbitrary as it does not take into consideration the size of the family or the number of dependents. The Commission has, therefore, prepared a scale under which a small sum for personal expenses is granted to the men undergoing training and .provision on a sliding scale is made for married men and their dependents and for those unmarried men who may have persons legally dependent upon them. The Minister, therefore, submits for approval the following scale which the Com- mission request power to establish:— SUGGESTED SCALE OF PAY AND ALLOWANCE FOR MEN UNDERGOING VOCATIONAL TRAINING AFTER THEIR MILITARY PAY HAS STOPPED. 1. Single men with pension living out, sixty (60) cents per day. 2. Single men with pension living in, including free board and washing, no pay. 3. Married men with pension living in, free board and washing plus eight ($8) dollars per month with the following additions : — (A) For wife having no children $35 per month, less pension of husband. (B) Wife and one child: — (a) If the child is under the maximum age and over 10 years of age, $42.50 per month less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension Regulations. (h) If the child is under 10 and over 5 years of age, $39.50 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension Regulations. (c) If the child is under 5 years of age, $38 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension Regulations. (C) Wife and two children: — (a) If both children are between ages of 10 and the maximum age or if one is between 10 and the maximum age and the other betlween 5 and 10, $47 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension Regulations. (b) If both between 5 and 10, $42.50 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension Regulations. (c) If one is between 5 and 10 and the other 5 years old or less $42.50 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension Regulations. (f/) If both are under 5 years of ag(\ $41 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension Regulations. (D) Wife and three children: — (a) If all three children are between the ages of 10 and the maximum age or if two are between 10 and the maximum age and the third under 10, [Colonel Alfred T. Thompson.] 30 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.~ -RETURNED SOLDIERS or if one is between 10 and the maximum age and two between 5 and 10, $50 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension llegulations. (fe) If all three are between the ages of 5 and 10, or if two are between the ages of 5 and 10 and the third younger, or if one is between the ages of 5 and 10 and two are younger, $45.50 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension Regulations. (c) If all three- are under five years of age, $44 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension Regulations. (E) Wife and four children: — (o)If one child is between 10 and the maximum age and a second child between 5 and the maximum age, no matter what be the ages of the other two, $53 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension Regulations. (&) If one or more children are between 5 and 10 and the others younger, $48.50 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension Regulations. (c) If all four are under 5 years of age, $47 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension Regulations. (F) Wife and five children :— (a) If one child is between 10 and the maximum age and a second child between 5 and 10, no matter what be the ages of the other children, the maximum allowance may be given, which is $55 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension Regulations. (&) If one or more children are between 5 and 10 and others younger, $51.50 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension Regulations. (c) If all the children are under 5 years of -age, $50 per month, less pen- sion of husband and allowances for children under the Pension Regula- tions. (G) Wife and six children: — (a) If one child is between 10 and the maximum age and a second child between 5 and the maximum age, no matter what be the ages of the others, the maximum allowance may be giveii, being $55 per month, less pen- sion of husband and allowances for children under the Pension Regula- tions. (&) If one or several children are between 5 and 10 and others younger, $54.50 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension Regulations. (c) If all children are under 5 years of age, $53 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension Regulations. (H) Wife with seven or more children under the maximum age, no matter what be their ages, may be given the maximum allowance of $55 per month, less pension of husband and allo^vances for children under the Pension Regulations, Note.— In all the foregoing cases, payment of allowances for the wife and chil- dren of a man undergoing vocational training will be made direct to the wife, unless otherwise deemed advisable by the Commission in individual cases. [Colonel Alfred T. Thompson.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 31 o. Married men living in their own homes sixty (60) cents per day extra. 7. A widowed mother if she be dependent entirely for support on an unmarried son who is receiving vocational training, and if the son made an assignment of his pay to his mother and also arranged for her to receive separation allowance during the time he was in service, may be paid on the same scale as the wife of a married man with no children. 8. The parents of a man midergoing vocational training if both are old and incapable of work, and if they are entirely or partially dependent on the son in ques- tion, may be paid on the same scale as the wife of a married men with no children. 9. Widower's children. — The guardian of a widower's children who are under the maximum age shall be paid the following rates: — (a) One child, $10 per montli. (&) Two children, $17.50 per month. (c) Three children, $22 per month. (d) More than three children, $3 per month for each child in excess of three with a maximum payment of $35 per month. 10. When a child reaches the ag^ of five or ten or the maximum age between the first of the month and the last day of the month the birthday shall be regarded as on the last day of the month. 11. Payments under these regulations shall be continued for one month after the completion of vocational training whether the man has secured employment or not. 12. In the preceding clauses wherever the term "Maximum Age" occurs it means sixteen years old in the case of a son and seventeen years old in the case of a daughter. The Committee concur in the foregoing and submit the same for approval. (Signed) F. K. BEXXETTS, Assistant Cleric of the Privy Council. P.O. 2566. Certified Copy of a Report of the Committee of the Privy Council approved by His Excellency the Administrator, on the 20th October, 1916. The Committee of the Privy Council have had before them a report, dated 5th October, 1916, from the ITonourable Sir James Lougheed, President Military Hospitals Commission, stating that the Military Hospitals and Convalescent Homes Commis- sion, acting under Order in Council P.C. 2412 of the 12th October, 1915, and subse- quent Orders in Council, especially under Order in Council P.C. 1472 of 29th June, 1916, has made arrangements with the various Provincial Governments whereby voca- tional training of disabled members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force, and of the reservists of British and Allied Powers, resident in the Dominion on the outbreak of the war, is being carried on. The Minister further states that in some of the provinces this work is being con- ducted directly by the Commission with the knowledge and consent of the Provincial Governments acting through the various provincial commissions. In the province of Ontario it is proposed that the work should be carried out by the Ontario Soldiers' Aid Commission, which has received special authority from the Government of Ontario, for this purpose. The Military Hospitals Commission will indicate to the Ontario Soldiers' Aid Commission the kind of training required in the various centres and for individual men in special cases, and the Ontario Soldiers' Aid Commission will employ the necessary instructors and a special voca- tional officer. [Colonel Alfred T. Thompson.] 32 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS The minister submits a copy of the agreement entered into between the Military Hospitals Commission and the Ontario Soldiers' Aid Commission. The minister therefore recommends that authority be given to the Military Hos- pitals Commission to carry out this agreement, and to reimburse the Ontario Soldiers' Aid Commission for any expenses incurred by them under this agreement, it being clearly understood that before any expenditure is incurred such expenditure will be approved by the Military Hospitals Commission, and that the Ontario Soldiers' Aid Commission will render monthly statements to the Military Hospitals Commission. The Committee concur in the foregoing recommendation and submit the same for approval. (Sgd.) KODOLPHE BOUDREAU, Clerh of the Privy Council. The Witness: Yes. These Orders in Council gave the Military Hospitals Com- mission the power to draw upon any branch of the Federal Government for assistance in carrying out the work of looking after the returned invalided soldiers. To look after the returned invalided soldiers we have hospitals in various portions of this country, as Col. Sharpies testified. By the Chairman: Q. Have you anything to add to that list? — A. Xothing, except to, perhaps, classify them as they appear to me, or as I think of them as Medical Superintendent, The Chairman: Is it the wish of the Comrnittee that the witness place on record his classification of these hospitals from his point of view? The Witness : One, debarkation hospitals : there are three of these, one at Halifax, One at St. John, and one at Quebec. The one at Quebec has been in existence for some time, the one at Halifax is just now nearing completion, and the one at St. John will be completed in about ten days. These are hospitals which are placed at those strategic points to receive the invalided soldiers when they return by steamship, and the soldiers are kept in these debarkation hospitals until their allocation is finally determined by an examining board. By the Chairman: Q. Is that usually a long or short time? — A. Comparatively a short time, a week or ten days, probably not more than two or three days, depending on the niunber debarked from any particular ship. Q. You have provision for those cases not well enough to be sent on? — A. Oh, yes, we have very fully equipped hospitals at those places, to take care of every kind of invalid who does return, and we have all kinds from the incurable and helpless to the convalescents who can walk from the ship to the hospital. These are the debarkation hospitals. Then we have active treatment hospitals. We are creating these. I might say here, with the permission of the Committee, that until early in the fall the Hospitals Commission was not doing any more than looking after convalescent soldiers; but due to the actions in Flanders in the past summer the hospitals in Britain became crowded, and through the High Commissioner the Minister of Militia was asked to provide beds in Canada for active treatment cases; and consequently the Hospitals Commission were immediately asked to procui-e accommodation. We have been doing that, and we are now preparing a large number of beds for active treat- ment cases. Thirdly, here are convalescent hospitals, properly so called, for men who have had the early part of their treatment, surgical and medical, carried on in Eng- . land to the p:)int where they can be transferred to Canada and where their treatment is finally completed in convalescent hospitals. [Colonel Alfred T. Thompson.] , RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 33 By the Chairman: Q. Those are filled with Class 2 men? — A. Yes. Fourth, tuhercular hospitals, hospitals specially designed and built by ourselves or subsidized sometimes if built by others; at any rate hospitals specially set apart for the care of tubercular patients, some having glandular tuberculosis but mainly for those suffering from pulraonarv' tuberculosis. Fifth, orthopaedic hospitals, where we care for patients reriuiring orthopaedic treatment, which means primarily some disability of the arm or leg, but in these later days means bone surgery which may involve any part of the body. For instance, as a case in point : one of our orthopaedic experts recently did a very interest- ing operation on a man's jaw, by the grafting of a piece of bone from his leg into his jaw. That is done very frequently now, and excellent results are being obtained: the whole history of surgery will have to be written after this war. The re-setting of ribs and bones and bono surgery generally now might be, by a very liberal interpreta- tion, included in orthopaedic surgery. Primarily, however, it means the disability of arms and legs, and amputations, generally speaking. We are creating a larger centre in Toronto. We have accommodation there now* for 200 orthopaedic cases and we shall eventually accommodate 500 such cases. Besides this orthopaedic centre, we shall have orthopaedic centres in Winnipeg and Montreal, and eventually perhaps farther west and farther east. The present plan is to locate orthopaedic centres at Toronto, Win- nipeg and ^Montreal. Then we have hospitals for mental cases, where men who are suffering from shell i^hock, men who are in the border-land of insanity or who, upon their return from the front, have been found to be practically insane. At the present time the three classes are grouped more or less togther, but as the work develops, the three types will have to be segregated. As a matter of fact, we are making prepara- tions now with that object in view. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. You spoke of men suffering from shell shock, and cases of men who are in the borderland of mental unsoundness ? — A. Yes, men who are not insane and yet who are not perfectly sane, it is a descriptive term. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. It is an arbitrary term? — A. Yerj'. You cannot clearly distinguish exactly what class they are in, but many of these cases I am glad to say have ultimately recovered. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Is the proportion large of soldiers who return from the war hopelessly insane? — A. No, Probably the last link in our hospital system is the hospital train, whereby we transport from the debarkation hospital to the hospitals to which they are finally sent the patients of whatever class they may be. The debarkation hospital, as I have already said, is simply a reception hospital for the men as they step off the ship. We have medical men, nurses and orderlies in the debarkation hospital and the men are retained there only as long as is necessary to transport them by means of a hospital train to the other centres such as ^lontreal, Toronto, Kingston or Winnipeg, as the case may be. By the Chairman : Q, At the debarkation hospital a full medical examination is given? — A. Yes. Q. Tell us something about that medical examination? — A. A number of highly qualified medical men are employed in doing this work continually, and they examine the individual in the debarkation hospital before he is transported from that point. A careful medical examination is made, and the findings are put on record, and that record accompanies the patient. [Colonel Alfred T. Thompson.] 2S277— 3 34 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Do those medical meu constitute the board which determines whether the soldier goes into class 1, class 2 or class 3 ? — A. Yes. Q. And is their finding subject to any revision as far as the classification of a man in any one of these three classes is concerned? — A. Yes, but there is nothing final about it. Sometimes it happens that a man is placed in class 1 or class 3, and subsequently he develops some condition which had its roots in his service. He is then put into class 2. There is machinery for that in the case of any of our hospital patients. Q. Does the Pensions Board act on the finding of this Hospitals Board in refer- ence to classes 1 and 3 ? — A. No. At least, if so, very, very rarely. Q. Tt is very rare that a man. receives a pension on the strength of his classifica- tion at the disembarkation hospital? — A. So far as I know, not at all. He is sent to the final hospital and his case is dealt with there for pension purposes. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Does the ^Medical Board have before it the man's previous medical record? — A. Generally speaking, yes. Sometimes the records are delayed or mislaid, but gener- ally speaking, the records accompany the man. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Is that the record that went over with the man? — A. It is his medical record, beginning with his disability. Q. Beginning with his disability overseas? — A. Yes. Q. And the finding of the Board over there? — A. Yes. Q. And that is taken into consideration in passing on a man's case? — A. It is taken into consideration, but we do not of necessity bind ourselves by it. However, it is a guide, of course. By the Chairman: Q. Men who have been examined by a Board in England, before crossing the Atlantic, are independently re-examined at the disembarkation hospital on arrival here? — A. Yes. Q. And if the two reports agree the conclusions are probably right. If there is any disagreement between the two reports, which report prevails? — A. That of the Canadian Board. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Neither of these reports rules in the matter of deciding what pensions shaU be granted?— A. Not necessarily. The rule is that the man is finally examined by a- .specnal Board for pension. Q. And this Pension Board have the original certificate before them that the man had when he was enlisted?— A. I am not sure as to that, but they have the medical history of the individual. Q. The medical history as given by himself ?— A. After the man goes overseas his medical lidstory begins from the time he becomes sick, and that history follows him on his return to Canada. By the Chairman: Q. His medical history commences from the time of his going on the sick list, as far as you are concerned ?— A. As far as we are concerned, and that is the history which influences us with respect to tlie man's condition. We take that history for our guide. rColonel Alfred T. Thompson.] RECEPTIOX, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 35 By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. He has the medical records as to disability' only ? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: ^l. Would that iuforuiatiou which comes before the Medical Board include the medical history of the mau previous to enlistment? — A. The statement as to has phy- -ieal condition? Q. The statement made by himself ?— A. The statement made by the man before the examining officer? Oh, yes. 'Mr. Bexxett: The Chairman of the Pensions Board is here and he will tell us about that. By the Chairman: *.}. Is there anywhere a complete record on file or index regarding every mau who rt^turns as a casualty? — A. A complete record. Q. Is there any one place where there is a complete record of that man, that can be turned up for inquiry ? — A. Yes, Headquarters has that. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. In what office? — A. In the Militia Department. . Q. In what Branch, would it to be the Pensions Branch? — A. In the Records Brancli, which is a separate ij-...ich by itself. By the Chairrtvan: Q. Then if we should ask tlie Records Branch of the Militia Department to fur- nish us Avith a medical history of any man they wiill be able to supply it? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Beginning with the medical examination at the time of enlistment? — A. Yes, iait very briefly with regard to the history given at the examination; his medical his- tory, properly so-called begins with his casualty. By the Chairman: Q. Who is in charge of that Branch of the Militia Department? — A. I do not know who it is. Q. Is it Mr. Frank Beard?— A. I think it is. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. I have a concrete case where a man enlisted, was sent overseas, and presum- ably was fit, but came back in the course of a year, discharged as physically unfit. He came back to my town and I put him on the letter-carriers staff, but he was incapacitated for that work, and three days after he resigned from the job. He received from the Pension Board no pension at all, no remuneration whatever, on the ground that his disability had not been aggravated by service, so that he gets nothing. Now what provision is there with respect to appeal dn a case of -that kind? — A. I do not know. That man is a civilian again, and I fancy — that opens up 'a great question. Mr. Chairman, and I can only speak as Medical Superintendent of the Military Hospitals Commission. I would like to have the committee make some suggestions or express an opinion because it is a live question. Q. The man came hack again, to his home-town he must have been certified to by this Board at the port of disembarkation. Wliat are you going to do with respect to that man? Are you going to take the report of the medical man who examined him in the first place and who said he was all right for service, or will you take the report of the Board, and say that he is all wrong when he comes back again? If he is aU wrong, he is unfit for a pension? — A. It is a matter of opinion — if you ask me my opinion [Colonel Alfred T. Thompson.] 2S2T7— 3J .36 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. That is what I want. — A. I have given this important question some con- siderable thought, and I am rather impressed with this idea, that if the State accepted that man's services it was up to the State to have a medical man who would examine that man properly. Q. If the man was willing to sacrifice his life and to serve the State? — A. And if the State accepted that man's sei-vices upon its medical man's advice, the State is morally bound to care for him. Q. That is if the man is willing to make the sacrifice, and he is not allowed to make it because he is unfit for service and is then sent back to this country, he should be provided for? — A. I think so, I think the State is morally bound to care for that man. The CHAIRMAN': I think it is only prudent and proper in this inquiry to examiue the Director-General of Medical Services in order to ascertain why and how men of this character were, ever allowed to get into the service. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. In the Pensions Regulations of December 12, 1916, there is a clause, 5, which reads that there shall be no appeal from the decisions of the Commissioners, but that an applicant wlio is ddssatified with the decision given in the ordinary course of admin- istration may present his or her case before the full Pension Board. The WiTXESfc'.: Oh yes, I did not .understand that was the point. There is an appeal to the Pensions Board, but while that appeal is pending decision, what is to happeu to the individual who is without means of support, perhaps ? By Mr. Middlebro: Q. In the ease I speak of, the Pensions Board has decided that the man could not have any further consideration. It only comes back to Colonel Thompson's point that having been accepted by the Medical Advisers of the State, who passed this man for service, the State should care for him. — A. Speaking again, if I might, for the Hos- pitals Commission, I have always regarded our hospitals as hostels for these unfortun- ates, who have crojJped up from time to time, and I have given instructions that our hospitals should be opened to these people and they get what nursing, surgical and medical attention they desire. By the Chairman: Q. You have many men under the Hospital Commission who have never gouQ overseas, in many of whom the trouble was developed or discovered within a few months of the time they enlisted and got into training? — A. Oh, yes. Q. What do you do with these men, do you treat them as members of the Can- adian Expeditionary Force? — A. Yes, they are all members of the C. E. F. to us, and v/e treat them all alike. Q. If a man should be passed to-day and become a member of the C. E. F., and to- morrow he should be discovered to have tuberculosis, we will say, would you take him into the liospital the same as if he had gone to the front and had come back? — A. We have several cases in that category now, we make no distinction. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. I suppose there are such cases as where a man by concealing from the examin- ing officer his medicaJ history might get a certificate and would be passed into the ser- ydce, and it would be some time before that disease would develop? — A. It is exceed- ingly difficult for the medical examiner to detect for instance pulmonary tuberculosis before development. Q. Aud is that the case with regard to venereal diseases? — A. And sometimes with regard to venereal diseases also; there are diseases that no medical man could discover. [Colonel Alfred T. Thompson.] RECEl'TIOy, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 37 Bu Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Wliat about rheumatic troubles? — A. It is very easy to cover those up, and tliey crop up when the ineu get into the trenches. In many of these cases it is almost impossible to diagnose them, but they are developed by exposure subsequently. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Would you modify your opinion as to the desirability of a man getting a pen- sion in a ca*e where he had succeeded in passing through concealment of his medical hristory < Would you make any distinction between a case of that kind where the exist- ence of the cause had been concealed and the general case where it had existed but had not developed? — A. Oh, yes, if it could be proven that a man got into the army by misrepresentation I would not be as generous with him as I would with a man who had not misrepresented matters. Q. How many men have you under treatment that have not been overseas? — A. There are 1,270 eases iii our hospitals to-day, and I might say, Mr. Chairman, that having in mind that we are treating so large a number of men, these figures are not accurate for these men up to this moment. They are approximately so. There are 1,270 men who have not been overseas who are either in our hospitals or out-patients under our care. By the Chairman: Q. Out of a total of how many ? — A. 3,779. Q. One-third of all your cases? — A. In the tuberculars, about one-third, yes. Q. About one-third have never been overseas? — A. We find alx)ut 60 per cent of the pulmonary tuberculars have never been overseas. The CHAm>rAX : Would you prefer to go on with the examination by taking these hospitals one at a time? By Mr. Pardee: Q. You have spoken of two different kinds of tuberculosis?— -A. Yes, pulmonary, and glandular. By far the most common is pulmonary. The other is an infection nf the lymphatic glands, which is more rare and not so amenable to treatment. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. And then you have cases of tubei'culosis of the joints? — A. You can classify them as to almost any part of the body. ByMr.Middlehro: Q. It seems to me that 1,270 cases are quite a lot to come from the C. E. F. at home. That will cover, I suppose, all the regiments? — A. The camp cases that were taken ill in the military camps throughout the country. Q. What proportion would that be of the whole units from which they are taken? Suppose there are 50,000 men in Canada, are these the dregs from the 50,000 alone? — A. These are the left-overs, the derelicts. Q. What percentage would these be of the total number from which they are taken ? Hon. Mr. McClrdy: The accumulation from 300,000. A. We could not go that far back, they are being evacuated from time to time. There are men in some of our hospitals who have been in since the army was first organized — a few. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Give us the total number since the inception of enlistment. How many have been treated in hospitals who never went overseas from the start? — A. I could get [Colonel Alfred T. Thompson.] 38 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETURXED SOLDIERS those' figures for the Committee. I have not got them- this morning. Major Kirkby reporting from the casualty centre under Col. Reed says than 40 per cent of patients in England from the C. E. E. have never been in Erance. By 21 r. Middle!) ro: Q. And you might secure the percentage of the troops that have been afflicted with tuberculosis in Canada since we commenced enlistment? — A. That information can be very easily secured from the D. G. M. S. By the Chairman: Q. What is required is the percentage of the total enlistment who have developed tuberculosis before going overseas?— A. A very smfill percentage. I will get it exactly, between one and a half and one per cent, I think. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. How many of those cases have been developed on the other side and have come over to your knowledge? — A. What percentage of tuberculars, having in mind the whole army ? Q. What tubercular cases have been developed before going overseas, and how many have developed after going over ? Hon. Mr. Murphy: How many cases have been under treatment from the begin- ning of men who have not gone overseas? The Chairman: We have a special item with reference to tuberculosis hospitals that the Doctor will amplify after luncheon. It is well if possible to keep the discus- sion regarding this subject together. Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Might I ask the Doctor to furnish us a statement with reference to venereal diseases on the same lines ? The Chairman: When he comes this afternoon. By the Chairman: Q. Now, Colonel Thompson, is there any more you care to tell us about the debarkation hospitals, or has all the information been given? — A. I have nothing more to add just now. Q.' Tell us about your active treatment hospitals. I am going to take up these several classes and have a general discussion upon them and have you tell us what there is to be known. As T understand, the active treatment hospitals take in cases which hitherto have been cared for in England, but are now cared' for here? — A. They represent the last word in hospital equipment and are manned by the best surgicaF and medical skill the country has. Q. How many are there in Canada?— A. Will you permit me to outline the policy as it has unfolded? So far as convalescent hospitals are concerned, we try to bear in mdnd, the geographical distribution of the troops. We return the man as soon a^ possible to the district from which he came. So far as active treatment hospitals are concerned we rather consider ourselves an extension of the British hospitals sys'tems. so we confine them to the larger cities in the larger centres where the highest form of medical skill can be secured. Hence our active treatment hospitals will be placed at Halifax, and St. John for the Maritime Provinces, Montreal, Kingston, Toronto and Winnipeg. Then from Winnipeg these active treatment cases will be distributed to the larger hospitals, civilian hospitals in the west, at Regina, Saskatoon, Calgary, Edmonton, New Westminster and Vancouver. Q. You use the word "civilian hospital"? — A. I. mean the ordinary hospital which exists in all the cities of Canada. Q. Is that convalescent hospitals?— A. Xo. the ordinary hospitals. [Colonel Alfred T. Thomp.son.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 39 By Hon. Mr. Miirphy : Q. You mean existing' apart from war time? — A. Quite. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. They are already creat an electric treatment. There was one man being treated who appeared as though he were afflicted with palsy, he could not keep still for an instant, and he was completely cured by the treatment — [Colonel Alfred T. Thompson.] 2827T— 4 50 SPECIAL COMMITTI-E-C.E.F.-RETURKED SOLDIERS 1 have forgotten the name of the doctor. There was another man who could not bend his knees, as a result of shell-shock, and there were other cases not so serious, all of which were completely cured? — A. We have those electric baths, there is nothing of that kind published that we do not get. Q. This is rather a new treatment ?— A. I will be glad to have the name of the doctor to whom you refer, and to look into the matter. By the Chairman: Q. I suppose you have correspondents in the Old Country, in England and in France, who are giving you all the information possible along these lines? — A. Not exactly that- but we subscribe to the best medical journals, and get all the information we can from them. Brigadier General Mason: It was in Paris that I witnessed this new treatment I have spoken of, at the invitation of the doctor who administered it. That is quite new apparently. I think Col. Thompson might get into communication with this doctor. By Mr. M c Curdy: Q. To what extent are patients suffering from shell-shock returned to active service at the front ? — A. Xot at all. I would not advise any man to return. I never knew a man — I did know of one but he only lasted about a fortnight after he got there. Q. You are familiar with the experience in the British service in that regard, as well as from your observations in Canada? — A. I am not as familiar, as a matter of fact, with what they are doing in Britain, but so far as my own experience goes, I do not think one per cent will be able to return. By the Chairman: Q. Do you know of any coming back, regarding themselves as well, and developing shell-shock after they have been back a while? — A. No, not unless he had symptoms of shell-shock before he came here. Q. What is done with the gassed man? — A. The gassed man usually ends up in one of our tubercular institutions, not necessarily with tuberculosis, but with troubles that simulate tuberculosis. We very often send such men t-o the care of these institu- tions. By Hon. Mr. Belcoiirt: Q. That is the treatment that suits his case? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. Is the man badly gassed likely to be a victim of tubercular trouble? — A. I think he is. The blood supples* to the lungs has been interfered with, and because oF , that he is more liable to be inoculated with tuberculosis or develop latent tuberculosis. Q. Are you able to restore to physical health a badly gassed man? — A. Many recover. It depends upon the amount of lung tissue destroyed. If too many of the air cells in the lung have been destroyed the prognosis is not good. The prognosis in any gassed case dei)ends upon that. If the destruction is not too great the prognosis is good. By Eon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. What happens to the lung cells, what does the gas cause? — A. As far as the studies have carried the profession the result is this: Chlorine gas has been chiefly used, and the chemical effect that takes place, that is as to how much of the chlorine i is absorbed, is not clear. The gassing has the effect of causing a gangrenous con- dition. Q. Does it result in a fibrosis? — A. Yes, the fibrosis occurs on the lung, a scar forms, and a cavity collapses and fills up. Q. The lung tissue is all gone? — A. Exactly, and of course it can never be replaced. That is what happens. It is more of a mechanical irritant to the mucous [Colonel Alfred T. Thompson.] RECEPTIOy, TREATMEyT AXD RE-EDUCATION 51 surfaces of the air colls which irritates them to the point where they swell up, the blood supply is cut off, and consequently gangrene takes place. Then they break down, and the person coughs up the broken down matter. The fibrosis then occurs, the scar closes, and the individual goes on with that much less lung. Q, Consequently he dies? — A. Not necessarily, if he has enough lung left he may go on. Q. Can he go on with one lung? — A. Yes, it depends upon how many of the air ••ells have been absolutely destroyed. They can never be replaced. Q. With a whole lung fibrosis would his fitness be impaired? — A. Oh, yes; after all, one lung is gone. But nature is wonderfully provident, and it is surprising how the other lung would develop to meet the condition. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. He would be more predisposed to take consumption, would he not? — A. He would not mix in with the tubercular patients, but the treatment is practically the same. Q. Gassed eases are segregated in the tuberciilar institutions? — A. Yes. Q. He would be more apt to contract tuberculosis? — A. Yes, for the reasons I have given you. The blood supply is not as good as it was. Q. Would you send him to a sanatorium ? — A. He would not mix with the tubercular patients, but would be placed under a skilled man. Q. In the same b\iilding? — A. Not necessarily in the same building, but in the same vicinity. By Hon. il/r. Belcourt: Q. Is there any more danger, of contracting tuberculosis in a sanatorium than elsewhere? — A. No, not if the sputum is taken care of. That is a scientific fact, but the public do not know that. Mr. MiDDLEBKO: That is what I referred to. By the Chairman: Q. You have finished with the shell-shock cases. What do you do with your borderland eases? — A. In those cases we do everything possible to get them back to a sane view of things. They are not hopeless. Many of these men are of a low mentality and never will be anything else, perhaps never were. They can be brought back to the point they were at before the war. To do that, Mr. Kidner will be able to tell you what is being done. We have occupational training; we give them things to take their minds off themselves, try and give them wholesome occupations, and by games, and exercise, and food and rest, and talk, everything is done to bring these people back to a normal view of things. Q. You endeavour to have institutions of this character well lighted and as attractive as possible? — A. That is a prime necessity. You must have the environ- ment cheerful and the attendants sympathetic, but we get good results. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. What are the manifestations of this condition? Do they have all sorts of delusions? — A. They have almost any amount of delusions. Q. Not one particular delusion? — A. There is one particular kind when the patient is a paranoic, where he has visions of grandeur or hallucinations. We do not hope for much from these cases. Q. There is no particular delusion due to shell-shock? — A. No, the man's mem- tality is quite clear. Q. But in these borderland cases? — A. In the borderland cases there is no par- ticular hallucination or delusion. He may not be very far off at all. He has peculiar ideas. [Colonel Alfred T. Tliompson.] 52 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.-RETURNED SOLDIERS Brig.-Gen. Mason : Loss of memory. The Witness : Tlicy are the ne'er-do-weels in every community. Perhaps they will develop a grouch against civilization, or some particular mental taint which prevents them from fitting in in the social fabric. These men went to England, were put through a stiff course of training, and developed this complaint. Not many get to th' trenches. They are mentally warped. ^Ve do what we can for them. The best we can do is to turn them out mental defects. Bi/ Mr. Pardee: Q. Do you say this type was practically a borderland case before he went over? — A. Quite. He might have been an epileptic. We were told in December to prepare for 4,000 cases, and of that 4,000 there were 50 insane and epileptics. That is one in SO out of 4,000 invalids. Q. Will you repeat that statement? — A. Sir George Perley cabled in December to make ready to receive active treatment cases from England, and in those 4,000 he gave the percentage of tuberculars and insanes, and the insanes and epileptics com- bined made 50 in 4,000. One in eighty, that will perhaps be a very fair proportion. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Of the two classes? — A. Yes, the epileptics and the insanes are closely allied. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. These cases are not very much worse than before they went? — A. They are practically no different from what they were before. Take an epileptic ; the examining officer has not the means of going into his mental condition. Q. It is not the life in the camps of England that would make his condition worse? — ^A. Possibly, it depends on his outlook. They get a grouch, some of them, and that seems to prevent them from becoming fit soldiers. Q. The open air life and the good food and exercise in the camps should improve his condition? — A. It does with the normal man, but with the man who is abnormal it does not always operate that way. By the Chairman: Q. You might tell us about the insane? — A. There is not much to tell in that regard. If insanity develops to the point where the case seems hopeless, we retain him in the hospital until we are satisfied with the fact. Then we get into communication with the authorities of the asylum in the province from which the individual comes, and send him back there. Q. Have there been many cases of insanity where you have reason to believe the man was perfectly sound when he went to the front? — A. No. H you trace up the case you will find that the man might reasonably have been expected to have gone insane anywhere- because he was a syphilitic or alcoholic subject. Alcohol and syphilis are the two great factors in insanity tiiat is not altogether of an hereditary type, and even if you trace the hereditary insanity back far enough you would probably find its inception was due to either of the two influences mentioned. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt : Q. Would you express the opinion that these two classes of cases should receive the same consideration at the hands of the nation? — A. These men break down before they get to the front. But what are you going to do with such cases? By the Chairman: Q. Have you any idea what number of soldiers become insane, either in France or in England, before they are ever subjected to the hardships of actual warfare?— A. I have no statistics that will show that. [Colonel Alfred T. Thompson 1 RECEPTIOX, TJn-.ATME^T AXD RL'-KDl CATION 53 Q. Have you any impression that a considerable number of the soldiers become insane without having been subjected to actual war conditions? — A. Very few of those we have to do with ever saw the front at all. Q. The war then is not primarily responsible for this insanity ? — A. It is not. A great many cases — I am speaking now of the hoi)elessly insane — would have become insane anyway. By Eon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Is that clearly borne out by the statistics furnished from England and France? — A. Wo have not got medical statistics from the other side. Q. It might be advisable to get them. — A. We are doing that now. We are uow co-ordinating our work with the work over there, but it takes time to do that. We shall have that information eventually, we are trying to obtain it, but the evidence I am giving now is derived from a study of the cases I have seen in Canada. By the Chairman: Q. Without being able to furnish definite statistics you are of the opinion that the vast majority of the men who are insane, either had a predilection to insanity or are the victims of alcoholism or syphilis? — A. Yes. Q. And that actual work in the trenches was responsible for very few cases of insanity. — A. Very few. It is responsible for practically all the case of shell shock — I should say to an extent of 99 per cent. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt : Q. In the case of tubercular patients, what percentage would you say? — A. A remarkably small percentage of our men who have developed tuberculosis ever saw the trenches. Q. Let me put it in another way : How many men in the trenches have developed tuberculosis? — A. I would not care to venture a statement as to the men who are engaged in the trenches. Q. But does not trench life provoke tubercxilosis ? — A. It does. Q. By reason of exposure to wet and cold? — A. Yes, the immersion of the men's legs in the terribly cold slime they have over there. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. Could you tell us how many insane patients you have in the hospital at the present time? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. State how many there are in Canada at the present time? — A. I cannot do that, because when cases of undoubted insanity develop, we send them to the Provin- cial Asylums. I think there are about 25 insane cases at the present time, but we have sent quite a few to the Provincial Asylums. Q. Each province makes provision for its own insane? — A. Yes. Q. When a man becomes hopelessly insane, you pass him out and he then comes under provincial care? — A. Yes. Q. He ceases then to be under your supervision? — A. Yes. By Uon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. But still he is a pensioner? — A. Yes. Q. Who gets the man's pension? — A. I understand that the rate which is paid to the Provincial Asylums is about $1 i>er day. The difference between that sum and the man's maximum pension (which is about $480) inures to the Federal Treasury. By the Chairman: Q. That is, if he has no dependents? — A. Yes, if he has no dependents. In the case of the man who has no dependents, the difference between the sum paid to the Asylum authorities and what is awarded to him as pension, reverts to the public trea- sury. [Colonel Alfred T. Thompson.] 54 SPECIAL COMMITTIJE—C.E.F. -RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Middlehro: Q. How many soldiers have been reported insane since the beginning of the war? — A. I am sorry I cannot give that information at present. "We might be able t'.> procure it for you later, Q. About 400,000 men have been enlisted, and whether they have all gone overseas or not does not matter for the purposes of comparison. Do you think the proportion of insane is larger among the enlisted men than among a similar proportion of the population in civil life? — A. Our information leads us to believe that the difference i? very slight. The present population of our Institution at Cobourg is: Insane from overseas, 35 ; from the Camps, 21. That would be 56. Q. That is all you have? — A. Yes, so you see we have not so very many of them. By the Chairman: Q. Some of your "borderland" cases will perhaps become insane? — A. A small I)ercentage of them. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. The number you have given is not the total number of insane from the Cana- dian Expeditionary Force in Asylums in Canada to-day? — A. No, it is the total num- ber in the Cobourg Institution at the present time. We have passed others on to the Provincial Asylums. Q. Will you get statistics showing the total number of insane cases ? — A. I think you had better apply to the Director General of Medical Service (Colonel Potter) for the required information. He will be able very shortly- to give the number of men returned from overseas as insane. By Brigadier General Mason: Q. I suppose a good many of the cases are hopeless? — A. Not necessarily hope- less. Still, there are quite a few that are hopeless. Might I be permitted to add that with regard to rheumatics I omitted to mention this morning there are a good many men with rheumatic tendencies. We treat these men at St. Catharines, we have a hospital there near some baths, and we have another at Winnipeg; we also have our eye on certain hotels and hospitals^ near hot springs, in case we have a considerable number of these cases to deal with. Q. Are there a considerable number of our men rendered incapable of military service by rheumatism? — A. No, I cannot say. Q. Is there a large percentage of the total, because we hear a great deal about rheumatism among our men in the Old Country? — A. When Sir Sam Hughes came back from Europe early last fall, he told Sir James Lougheed and me to get ready to receive 1,500 to 2,500 rheumatics, and we scurried all over the country, from Cale- domia Springs to the hot springs in British Columbia, expecting to have that number to provide for, but we did not get 200. A number of these cases must have recovered ■ in England. Q. Is there any medical relationship and A. There is in the lay mind, but svcr with the troops on the transports? — A. Xo, I do not know that. /)// Bri(iadier-Gcneral Mason: Q. What personnel accompanies a shipment of invalid soldiers': — A. There is the Conducting Officer, and if the numbers are large, there arc two as-istants, with the necessary number of nurses and hospital orderlies. Q. Do they return to England ? — A. Yes, at once. Witness retired. Colonel J. L. Pottf.k. called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman : Q. Do I understand rightly you are the Director General of Medical Service? — A. The Acting Director General of Medical Service. B/j Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Who is the Director General? — A. General Jones, who is now overseas, I believe. I am only acting. By the Chairman: Q. And your title is Acting Director of Medical Service?— A. No, sir, Acting Director General of Medical Service. Q. I think the committee will be glad if you will clear up at the beginning this matter of difference between the Military Hospitals Commission and the Military Base Hospitals. Will you tell us about the Military Base Hospitals, what they are, where they are located, and what function they perform? — A. I think there has been, per- haps, too much stress laid upon the "Base Hospital" part of it. They are simply military hospitals. Q. Where are they located, and how many of them are there? — A. We have a military hospital, at London, Out.; we have one. which is known as the base hospital, at Toronto, because it was actually performing that function for District No. 2; that, I may say, is the old Toronto General Hospital, which is now being used for military purposes. Q. Who is in charge there?— A. Lieutenant-Colonel Harvey. There is a military hospital at Hamilton. Q. Who is in charge of that? — A. I can't give you the officer's name just now, but I can get that for you, because there has been a change recently made. A military hospital at Stanley Barracks. Toronto; really the important hospital there is the base iio.spital. Those are the military hospitals for .Military District No. 2. Q. Now, will you take the military hospitals for Military District No. 3? — A. For District No. 3 we have the ''Ongwonada," so-called to distinguish it at Kingston, and we have the Venereal Hospital at Kingston. Q. Where you segregate them? — A. Where we segregate them. 28277—5 r Colonel J. T.. Potter.] 66 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.-HETLRyKD ^OLDIEIiti Q. You have oiu^ :it Hamilton, liavou't you? — A. That is Military District No. 2. That is part of the Hamilton organization, and we have in Military District No. 4 the Isolation Military Hospital at St. John. Q. Is that a venereal one? — A. No, that is for infectious diseases, we have St. George's Ildme Military Hospital lin Montreal, it is used as a venereal hospital. Q. These are in District No. 4? — A. Yes, and we have a small isolation hospital at Montreal for emergency cases. For example, we had an epidemic of mumps recently, and we used it for that. Then there is a small military hospital at St. Johns, Quebec, which is a small hospital within the boundary of the barracks, it is for general cases. In Military District No. 5, that is Quebec, we have a large military hospital there right in the city, and a smaller one located in Beauport just outside Quebec, which handles mostly venereal cases at present. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Mostly? — A. Yes. There might be other cases sent out there; if we had only half -filled the hospital with venereals there was no reason why some other patients- should not be sent there to utilize the \^acant beds. We have to be more or less elastic. Then in Military District No. 6 we have a large military hospital at Halifax, right in the city. We have a large military hospital known as the "Eockhead" Military Hos- pital, which is a short distance outside the city, and is a building formerly used as an immigration hospital. We have with the military hospital in Halifax city certain infectious disease pavilions. We have a small militarj'^ hospital at Pictou, N.S., and a small military hospital at Fredericton, and a small military infectious disease hos- pital at St. John, N.B., and a general military hospital at St. John, N.B. n Q. When you say "infectious," you mean diseases like the mumps ? — A. Yes, we have to provide for such diseases as that. A small military hospital at Truro ; we have an infectious diseases hospital at Charlottetown. That covers pretty well everything east of London. Then going west, there are ten places where battalions are recruited, that have, at each battalion headquarters, a few beds to meet emergencies, for the men who are not likely to be sick over a couple of days, and then we use the civil hospital accommoda- tion, in the regularly established civil hospitals. Q. And you pay the civil hospitals so much per day? — A. We pay them so much * per day. We found that a very good scheme, it reassured the public and we are sure that our patients get good treatment. Then for District No. 12, a newly organized district, and formerly part of Military District No. 10, is composed of the province of Saskatchewan, and we use the civil hospitals wherever required. We found they give good accoiumodation for the troops in training. We recently established a small infec- tious diseases hospital at llegina, which was to meet tejniwrarily an outbreak of infec- tious disease, diphtheria. We are considering the establishment of a small venereal hospital because the civil hospitals do not wish to take these cases. In Military District No. 13, still going west, we have a military hospital at Calgary, which is in the building of the old Calgary General Hospital. We have large civil hospitals throughout ]\Iilitary District No. 18, sufficient in quantity to meet our needs. Coming to Military District No. 11, we have a military hospital at Esquimalt, and we are establishing another military hospital known as the Irving Property Hospital. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Where is it? — A. At Victoria, right in the city. Then I may say, generally here and there, wherever circumstances warrant it, there are small hospitals attached to the battalions, which have a suitable number of beds to handle cases which only are sick about forty-eight hours. [Colonel J. L. Potter.] RECEPTIOy, TREATMENT AND RE-EDiCAflON 67 Bij Hon-. Mr. McCuiJij: Q. You have the hospitals at the camps as well? — A. I am speaking of the present situation. When the camps open each camp is provided with its own camp hospital. By the Chairman: Q. I understand that none of these hospitals that you have mentioned are under the jurisdiction of the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. No, sir. Q. They are entirely under the jurisdiction of the medical service of the Militia Department? — A. Of the ^lilitia Department. Q. Where do you get your patients, who are eligible for these hospitals? — A. They are the sick from the troops mobilized from the district. Q. Are they all men who have not gon^ overseas? — A. Practically. Q. Do you take care of any men who have gone overseas? — A. Any man who con- veniently may be treated, who is a returned soldier, it is open to him. Q. How many returned soldiers did you treat in the hospitals under your depart- ment ? — A. Not a very great many. I could not give you the exact number because you see the Military Hospitals Commission establishments have relieved us of the necessity of providing accommodation for them in our purely military hospitals. Q. Why should you have any returned soldiers in any of your hospitals? — A. Only as a. matter of convenience. Q. For instance, in a plj^ce where the Military Hospitals Commission might not liave accommodation? — A. During the growing expansion of the Military Hospitals Commission. Q. Do you expect that subsequently the Military Hospitals Commission will take care of all cases of returned soldiers, and that you will devote yourselves only to the care of the men of the battalions on their way overseas? — A. That will have to be decided as a matter of policy between the higher authorities. Q. Have you any idea how many men you have in your hospitals to-day who have been overseas? — A. I could obtain the figures. Q. W^ill you insert them in the evidence. What is the total capacity of all your hospitals, the total number of patients, and the number of those who have come from overseas? — A. I might say as regards the total capacity of our hospitals, that would be a very elastic thing because we use civil hospital accommodation here and there tliroughout Canada as required. Hon Mr. Murphy : That information could be stated in addition. Hon. Mr. Belcoiht: I would like to get the inniiber of patients there now. By* the Chairman: Q. I have asked for the total number of patients in the hospitals under your Jurisdiction? — A. I might say that we get monthly returns of sick from each of these hospitals, say at the end of eacll month. Q. Your latest monthly return wbuld be satisfactory for our purpose. Have you the number of those who have been overseas, or who are overseas men? — A. As regards the overseas men, they might be treated. If the Hospitals Commission had a venereal patient, and wished us to treat him, certainly we would do that. Q. Does the Military Hospitals Commission' when they have a venereal patient, pass him over to you? — A. That is the understanding. I could not say definitely whether any such cases have occurred. By Mr. Middlelro : Q. Outside of the venereal eases which have been passed over to you, how many returned soldiers have you? — A. I can get you the return and the classes of returned. [Colonel J. L. Potter.] 28277— 5J 68 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.-UKrVRy ED SOLDIERS By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. I should like to ask the witness what means of compulsion he has with reference to men who have not gone overseas. For instance, take a man who has a venereal disease. lie objects to go to a hospital either at Kingston or lieauport. Do you have authority to compel him to go there? — A. He is compelled. It is a crime under military law to conceal venereal disease. He must report it. We have periodic examinations both by order in advance and warned for the pui'pose of detecting venereal disease. Q. The man's own feelings in the matter are not consulted? — A. Not at all. Q. Are the institutions you have mentioned at Kingston, Beauport, and the one in Military District 12. quite sufficient to handle the venereal disease cases you have? — A. These are particularly referred to as \y?nereal disease hospitals because they are used for that alone, but in our other hospital establishments certain sections of these hospitals provide sufficient accommodation to deal with these diseases in the districts. Q. Could you give us by districts the number of soldiers suffering with venereal diseases at the present time, for instance, in your last monthly report? — A. I can give you that, I brought a report along. By the Chairman : Q. If you would like to put in any figrures at this stage you might read them and put them in? — A. This is a return which is now being- printed covering the first tei. months of 191G, and it has figures in it relative to venereal diseases. The Chairman: If it is the wish of the Committee we will have that return go int. the record as an addendum. By Mr. Middlebro : Q. How many cases does that return sihow? — A. For the ten months a total of 4,313 cases of gonorrhea ; 566 cases of syphilis, and 206 cases of soft chancre. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Out of a total number of how many patients i — A. Out of a total number of 59,050. By Mr. Middlebro: Q. Ten per cent have venereal diseases? — A. That is the sick altogether in that time. Mr. McCi'RDY : One man may be sick half a dozen times. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. You never had 60,000 men in the hospital at one time? — A. Oh, no. Tht- average number of cases in Canada per month from January 1, .1916 to October 31. 1916 was 5,905, scattered from one end of Canada to the other, with diseases varying from a simple cold to something more serious. Q. Can you give us the average monthly cases of venereal diseases? — A. Divide that 5,000 by ten. Q. Would not the eases of venereal diseases be much longer in the hospital than eases of cold? — A. That is quite possible. Q. And the monthly average would be higher in reference to venereal diseases than with reference to the others? — A. Yes, owing to the extended period of treatment. Q. Yes. — A. Possibly, but while one case of venereal disease might be in, there might be nine or ten eases of influeuzn. Q. Your monthly average would likely bo higher, because the other includes many cases of cold, infiuenza. etc.? — A. Where one man remains in with gonorrhea for six weeks, there might be ten or twenty cases of influenza admitted in the same period in and out. [Colonel J. L. Potter.] RECEPTIOX. rHEATMENT AS'D RE-EDLCATION 69 By Mr. Middkbro: Q. That makes the percentage of gonorrhea all the more I— A. The average period oi treatment would be longer. By the Chairman: Q. Have you any statement, for example, that shows on a given date the total number of men in hospital, and the disease for which they were in hospital on that date?— A. We can always come to that if sufficient time is given for us to get our reports in. We are always, i^erhaps, a month or six weeks behind. Q. Have you got such a statement for the months of December and January ?-- A. I think I can give it to you for the month of December. If one hospital return is lield up for any reason, and has to be sent back, it means that everything else is held up until the required return comes to hand. The Chairman: You may give us a statement for your last complete month that will give us an idea of -the percentage of the various diseases. By Hon. Mr. Beanbien: Q. Will you tell us whether the percentage of cases of venereal disease is increas- ing or diminishing? — A. I would have to look up the individual monthly reports from which this information is compiled. Then I think I could give you some definite information upon that point. By Hon. Mr. Belcoiirt: Q. What is the limit of your accommodation in the Kingston Venereal Disease Hospital?— A. 22 beds. Q. And at Beauport, what is the accommodation? — A. 50 beds. Q. Now give us the accommodation of the hospital out west? — A. That is being fitted up. We have been forced to provide \hat accommodation owing to the civil hos- pitals refusing to take in these cases. I cannot tell you exactly how many it will contain. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. Speaking of the men that have been rejected as medically unfit and have been granted their discharge, do you allow them to be treated in the base hospitals after that time?— A. If that man is finally discharged on account of unfitness, and it is con- -^idered he will have an extended period of convalescence, we then would transfer him to one of the Convalescent Homes under the Hospitals Commission until his case had arrived at a stage of finality. Then he would be dealt with in the ordinary \vay as a man for discharge, and any claims for compensation or pepsion considered. Q. Provided he was recommended for a pension under Clause 3, and wished to be treated in hospital, would you treat him?— A. We never discharge a man from the -Military Hospital if he is still in need of medical treatment, and is not in a position to take care of himself. What I mean to say is, that he would be discharged from the -ervic-e, but if there was no way to dispose of his case he would be kept there indefinitely. The door is thrown open, in other words to what may prove a large question later dealing with incurables. ' Q. Are not some of the men discharged as medically unfit who are not sent to the hospital at all? — A. Those would be cases in which the medical authorities would • 'onsider the stage of finality, as far as medical treatment. ha>^ been reached, and any more trontment would be of no use to them. By the Chairman: Q. Colonel Potter, you are as the Acting Head of the Medical Service, respon- <-\h\e, I understand, for the examinations which have admitted men into the service "f the C. E. F. Can you tell us why it ds that so very large a number of men who have been admitted have been subsequently dismissed as medically unfit? [Colonel J. L. Potter.] 70 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETUUy ED SOLDIERS By Mr. Middlehro: Q. First of all can you tell us how many have heen dismissed ?— A. That is a thing that I think inquiiry was made labout before the House adjourned, and the in- formation was being- prepared by the Records Branch which I think will be able to give you the number; I haven't the information myself. By the Chairman : Q. Can you tell us why it is — we will take it for granted that a very large number, a very hirge percentage of the regiments were in the final examinations declared medi- cally unfit. How was it possible for these men to get into the regiments in the first place? — A. The situation is a rather difiicult one. Q. We will be glad to have your story of the situation? — A. In this way. the medical authorities in their examination, if they are strict, the result is shown in the recruiting, and there are many influences on the side of the recruiting officers and that fact may lead the medical officer to be less strict than he might otherwise be. Situations have developed where the medical officers, no doubt, have been exposed to more or less influence as to turning down recruits. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Helping the commanding officer out? — A. You have a good knowledge of the situation, sir, and there has been over-anxiety on the part of those responsible for securing the required number of men. By th e Chairman : Q. What safeguard has the service if men have been permitted to join battalions on the mere examination which they get at the point of original recruiting? — A. That was so, I believe, in the early part of the war, but our present system is much more thorough. The regimental examination in many cases was made by the individual medical officer, either a civil practitioner, or a .military medical officer, and that is followed wherever possible by an examination by the Medical Board, before the man is permitted to join. Q. How many of these Medical Boards are there? — A. That is something which ij am making up for my own information, and I will be able to give you that in a short' time. Q. Is there more than one in a Military Divisiion ^ — A. Oh, yes ; several. Q. How many members are there on the Medical Board? — A, Usually three. Q. And, to-day, is a man not permitted to be permanently attached to a battalion until he has been " boarded ?" — A. Until he has been " boarded." Q. He has the same medical examination by a civil practitioner? — ^A. Sufficient to enable him to be " boarded." Q. ITow long does it take to bring him before the Board? — A. It depends upon' tlio distance the man has to be brought. Q. And that recruit is not actually accepted until — ? — A. Until he is "boarded." Q. Has that system been in operation long? — A. It Avas to a certain extent. It has been in operation in the larger centres for quite a long time, but on the 12th Sep- tember last a special order was sent out with regard to that. Q. What was that order? — A. It was a circular letter witli regard to examining, men at mobilization centres. By Hon. Mr. Beauhien: Q. What was. the effect of it ? By the Chairman: Q. Can you file a copy of that ? — A. Any. correspondence would be with the^ Adjutant-General. I think you could obtain it if you asked for it. [Colonel J. L. Potter.] RECEPTIOX, TREATMEXT AND RE-EDUCATIOX 71 Bi/ Mr. Ross: Q. Can you tell us what the effect of that order was? — A. Just as I have stated. By Mr. Pardee: Q. A moment ago you said that was in vogue to a certain extent for a long time — to what extent? — A. They had medical hoards at the larger centres like Winnipeg, Toronto, and tlu\v have one at Montreal. The larger centres, I am speaking of many months ago. Q. How long ago? — A. I would like to look that up. Q. Well, in rural districts they had no such system; it was an examination hy one medical man? — A. That was in the winter of 1916. By the Chairman: Q. And when these men had heen recruited at a numher of small county centres and came to he mohilized in the spring in the regiment, were they again examined? — A. They were supposed to be by the medical officer. Q. According to your knowledge wore they in all cases again examined? — A. I could not say definitely. Q. You have reason to believe that many were not? — A. I have reason to believe that the medical officer did not scrutinize his men when they actually got together. In December, 1915, an order was issued whereby all the men were to be examined by a travelling medical board during the winter; but, apparently, owing to the wide distribution of the small units it wns very difficult to get it done. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. The men might be under training for several months before l>eing passed by a board? — A. It was -with that in view that the order was issued, to see that the men were not kept longer. Q. They would be boarded before they would go overseas? — A. Yes, we have not come to that point yet. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Do you say, Colonel Potter, tiiat ever since recruiting started every man v.as boarded before he went overseas? — A. 1 would not say that. Q. I am not asking you to make too broad a statement. Was he supposed to have been boarded? — A. He was supposed to have been boarded since — I could not give you the exact date, but we have the order on rile. The situation is now that all ranks are medievally boarded before a unit is allowed to proceed overseas and the commanding officer of the unit must certify that he has no men under him under or over age; and the certificate of the medical board that tlicy have examined these men and passed them as fit is also attached. Q. Has that only been in force for the last few months? — A. Last summer they were l>oarded, the men from the camps. By Brigadier-General Mason : Q. You do not remember the date of that order? — A. I cmild get it. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. In the County of Grey, the 2-t8th Battalion is the last battalion organized, starting about the 1st of January. Wo have now about 3.50 men recruit<:'d. They are examined by the local medical man of the battalion. Do they really not belong to the 248th regiment now unless they have been examined by the board? — A. I am not familiar with the particular circumstances of that particular unit. Q. The 350 men so flar recruited in the 248th Battalion have been examined locally by the surgeon of the 31st Grey Regiment. Are these men on suffrance until they come before a board? — A. I would have to look up the particular unit to see the circumstances. [Colonel .1. L. Potter.] 72 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. These are the facts ( — A. I dare say that in some instances it will be impossible, owing to the location of the units, to have them all medically boarded when they join; but it is our endeavour to do that. Q. Would these men have to pass a board, say in Toronto, subsequently? — A. Before they go overseas. More than that, they would have to be examined every month * by the medical officer and a report furnislied by him. Q. If there are any men to be thrown out they should be thrown out at the first opportunity. If this battalion goes on recruiting until May, carrying unfit men, it is a useless expenditure of money? — A. That is what we have been endeavouring to stop a long time. By Mr. Pardee: Q. If there were 350 recruits, would it not pay you to send a board up there to examine them? — A. It is left with the A.D.M.S. of the district; once he gets his general instructions the Assistant Director of Medical Services of the district is responsible for working out the details in his own district. I may say that it is our effort, in so far as conditions and the distribution of troops and recruiting methods will allow, to have men medically boarded on joining. By the Chairman: Q. Don't you supervise it in Ottawa to see that cases are followed up within a reasonable delay? — A. In Avhat way? By Mr. Pardee: Q. You have now returned from England 20 per cent of rejected men who have gone overseas. You are recruiting another battalion, the 248th, which has 350 recruits, ^ow, you will not get that battalion recruited up to full strength for another year in all probability, at least not until next fall. Would it not pay the medical service to send a board up there and to have every one of those 350 men now mobilized brought before a board at once rather than carry a lot of iinfit men? — A. Quite right. That is a proper thing to do, and we have to leave these details Q. Is that a detail ? That is not a detail, if yoi; will permit me to say so. That is the very essence of the whole proposition. It means thousands of dollars to this country; for every man it means a thousand dollars practically to this country who may be next fall refused by a board? — A. Take this particular battalion: are you sure that they have never been befoi'e a board? By Mr. Middlehro: Q. We are recruiting in all the different centres of the county, and we leave the men in these centres as long as we can so as to gather in recruits as much as we can. We perhaps have 200 men in Owen Sound? — A. I would like to look into that batta- lion's circumstances and be sure they have not been boarded as they joined. Q. If they were boarded would the board come up there and examine them? — A. They would be boarded at different places, perhaps a board, we will say at London, would board some of them, who would afterwards be forwarded to join the battalion. Q. Would that be done from the beginning of the corps? — A. I am not familiar with the geography of that county. By the Chairman: Q. What it seems to me should be done is this: you are the head of this service; you have men in each military district under your control; it would seem to me that you should assure yourself that every one of these regiments as they are being formed is boarded within a reasonable delay and that the condition of affairs that Mr. Pardee refers to is not possible? — A. Yes, but I am not sure that they have not been boarded. It is the case that a battalion may be mobilized in a number of sections in different [Colonel J. T^. Potter.] RECEPTIOX, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 73 parts of Canada who go before the local board and are then transferred to the head- quarters of their unit. In that case the A.D.M.S. has his full instruction, and we follow them up. ' Q. Would the Assistant Medical Director, if he lets the thing slip, be subjected to pressure from the head office to make sure he does not neglect a work of that importance? — A. We check them up, sir. By Hon. Mr. Beauhien: Q. Can you make rules to provide that all recruits are boarded? Is that in your power? — A. I can only recommend. I have no power to actually do anything. Q. What is the effect of youx recommendation ? — A. The effect is to get the order out that the men must be boarded. By the Chairman : Q. To Avhom do you make the recommendation? — A. To the Adjutant General, (reueral Hodgins. By Hon. Mr. Beauhien: Q. Is lie not suiiposrd to follow that rooommendation ? — A. Yes, to a certain I'xtent. Q. Has there been from your department a recommendation to that effect to board recruits within a certain delay? — A. That has been in for some time. That recom- mendation is in and has been in effect since September 12. Q. What is the purport of the recommendation that you have sent out? Is it a vague or a positiA^e one? Have you fixed a special delay? — A. My recommendation is that every man should be boarded before he is allowed to join. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. Boarded?— A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. When was that made? — A. September 12, last. Q. Has it been acted on?— -A. To some extent. That is a point on which, I may say, the office is workin|>i- out, and has been working on for some three weeks now, to get actual details of what is actually being done in each military district. I have been all over Canada since SeiHember, and I have seen a great many of these boards actually working, and I know that they are saving the money that you refer to. ^It. MrooLEBKO: In the county of Grey they are joining the battalion I have referred to at the rate of about ten or fifteen a day. You would have to bring a board into that county. The Chairman : It would be well for us to examine the Adjutant-General regard- ing this matter of boarding, and regarding the discharge of soldiers. Hon. Mr. Murphy : Mr. Middlehro has brought this very illuminating matter up, and the point he lias just made should be explained by the Colonel. The witness has made a recommendation that these men be boarded at the very outset. Mr. Middlehro has inquired if that A'ould be feasible. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Unless your board followed every recruit it could not be done? — A. My recom- mendation involves more than actually the medical side of it. It involves recruiting problems and other things, and it involves perhaps things a little further in advance tlian should be carried out. [Colonel J. L. Potter.] 74 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETURyED SOLDIERS Q. The effect, you say, would be that every man would be boarded? — A. Would be boarded. It might also have the effect of doing away with battalions and dividing the country into sections. ^ Hon. Mr. Murphy: Perhaps it would save time if Colonel Potter were asked to produce the report. We would then be in a position to determine whether we could carry the examination any further along this line. (To the witness). You can produce the report? The Witness: Yes. I might say that an order was made for a monthly examina- tion whereby we could actually check up every unit in Canada. That was the only reason for the order, and perhaps it was unnecessary, because it was already laid down in regulations of the Army ]\[edical Service that such shall be done. By the Chairman: Q. When yo;i have boarded and rejected these men, what is done with them'?*- A. Do you mean the men from the battalion? Q. Yes. — A. Their cases are disposed of upon their merits. Q. But what is done with the rejected man? — A. He is either discharged from the service and allowed to go as a civilian, or if his case requires medical treatment, he gets it either in a Military Hospital or a Convalescent Home. Q. But you have men now boarded, and declared to be medically unfit for military duty, and yet they are transferred to the Special Service Companies? — A. Yes, if they are fit for that. Q. Why are men who have been pronounced hopelessly unfit for overseas service, retained as fit in the Special Service Companies? — A. That is really not a medical qviestion, that is a matter of policy, isn't it? Q. It is a very burning question. There are 1,500 men to-day who enlisted for overseas service, who have been refused and placed in Special Service Companies which are only supposed to do chore work. Brigadier-General Mason: Drawing pay. Q. Drawing overseas pay and overseas separation allowance, and doing chore work to-day in Canada. Most of them never can go overseas, and the Government will not release them to go back into private life. — A. That is not a medical question, sir. Q. What I want to find out from you though is this: When men are rejected as mifit for overseas service, a great many of them are put nolens volens into the Special Service Companies.- — A. If they are to be disposed of, as may be indicated later. Q. Most of them are put into Special Service Companies. Now, how many of these men become svibsequently fit to go back on active service? — A. That would be very difiicult to say. Most of them are there because they are not fit and we do not expect them to get better. Q. And the Government is leaving 1,500 men in Special Service battalions on overseas pay, when it is known that they are metlirally unfit to go on active service? — A. That is not a medical question. Brigadier-General Mason: Is that the case? The Chairman: That is the case. The Witness: I have no doubt some departmental official could answer that. Hon. Mr. Belcourt: And some men who are in the hospital getting treatment. The Witness: If the man is sick, that is all right. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : - Q. If you find a man is not medically fit to become a soldier, why should you take him into hospital and treat him?— A. I think you are labouring under a misunderstand- ing there. [Colonel J. I.. Potter.] RECEPTIOX, THE ATM EM AXIJ h'K-EDi CATION 75 Q. Suppose the man is passed by the doctor and boarded and found medically unfit, would you take him into a hospital? — A. No. Q. You would give him no treatment at all?. — A. Xo. Q. I thought you said he would be given treatment? — A. He would be still on special service. The fact of his being on special service would indicate that he had been in some other battalion before. By Hon. Mr. Bclcourt: Q. Does that not optn the door to this kind of thing; I am suffering from some disease or other and want to be treated. All I have to do is to declare my intention of enlisting. Then I go before a board, am found to be suffering from a disease, and am sent to the hospital? — A. That does not happen. You are not sent to the hospital or given treatment unless you have enlisted. Q. All that it is necessary to do in order to get that treatment would be to go through the form of enlisting. Then I would be sent to the hospital at the expense of the State? — A. You arc not enlisted by simply being examined once. Q. Assume the case of a man who has contracted a disease of some sort and says: " I will enlist, and when they find I have a disease, they will send me to the hospital and take care of me." That is quite possible, is it not? — A. It is possible, but improbable. If the Medical Officer does his duty, he should detect the disease that a man has when he tries to enlist. Q. I am afraid I am not making myself understood. Take the cases of the men who arc declared to be unfit. If they have a disease which requires immediate atten- tion, instead of discharging and sending them home, you send them to the hospital? — A. But they arc already soldiers. Q. I understand that. — A. We must do that. Q. But suppose a man enlists and he is found to have some disease which requires immediate attention, instead of discharging him and sending him home and letting him get a doctor for himself, you send him to the hospital ? — A. An enlisted man must be looked after. If you did not give that man a certain amount of medical attention he would certainly make a claim for. perhaps, aggravation by service. Q. I have not yet made myself understood. What I mean is this. I want to assume that I mean to be dishonest about it. I say to myself, I have go't a disease, and I think the time has come when the State should look after me. I am a civilian, and say, I am going to enlist. Should the military authorities find out I have got disease they will send me to the hospital, where I can get free treatment? — A. No. If our doctors do their duty, they will turn you down at once, so you cannot get into the hospital. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Can vou. to-morrow, give to us a report as to whether or not in the 248th there are 350 men that have not yet been "hoarded" and, if not. when they will be, and what had l>eeii the number taken after further nuHlicnl ex;niiination ? — A. Yes. Mr. Mr. Ross: Q. I would like you also to give us the information regarding the llSth. There have been reixirts in the papers that in that battalion, which mobilized in London, 30 ur 40 per cent were discharged on account of unfitness. Brigadier-General Masdx : In England ? ^[r. Ross: No, here. I would like you to give some explauatiuu how that occurred. — A. The case of the llS-th Battalion was very carefully gone into. I think the Adjutant-General's Department wnnld W willing to give the information you ask. By the Chairman: Q. Can you give us the information to-morrow? Will you communicate to the Adjutant-General's Department that it is the desire of the Committee to have that [Colonel J. L. Potter.] 76 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS information. Can you also give us to-morrow what proportion of men in the Special Service Companies, I think tlicy aggregate about 1,500 men, how many of that num- ber are regarded as undoubtedly unfit for proceeding overseas? — A. I would take it from the fact that they are in the Sjx^cial Service it is very unlikely that any of them are. Q. That is not absolutely true, because some of them will be permitted to go shortly. I would like to know how many of those special service cases are regarded as without question never likely to see overseas service. — A. I do not. think you can get that information by to-morrow, but the whole question regarding the physical fitness of the members of the Special Service Battalion can be got for you as a whole, I think. The Chairman: If you cannot get it for us to-morrow, you can get it for us next w^eek. Witness retired. Committee adjourned. [Colonel J. K Potter.] MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. HoLSK OF Commons, CoMMiTTKK Room Xear on the 1st day of March and give us this information? Concurred in. The Witness: Col. Marlow. who is the A.D.M.S. of Military District No. 2, is here this morning, and he could give information about the 24Sth Battalion that was asked for yesterday. [Colonel J. L. Potter.] 78 SrECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.-RETUKMJD SOLDIERS Mr. MiDDi.KBRO: We have not got Col. Marlowe's rojwrt yet, and I should like to read his report before he is examined at all. The Chairman: Are there any further question.s that the Committee desires to ask Col. Potter. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) :^ Q. Did you get any information regarding the llSth Battalion about which 1 asked? — A. That is on file at headquarters, and you could get it the same way as you could get Col. Marlowe's report, by asking the department. Q. We will be examining you again a week from to day. Can't you produce that report then? — A. It is at the headquarters office. Q. Have you asked for it in order to produce it before this Committee? — A. I could do that. The Chairman : The proper way is for the Committee to ask the Adjutant- General to furnish us with a copy of that report, and I will request the clerk to have that done. Is there anything further to ask the Avitness? By Mr. Bennett: Q. What is your relation to the Pensions Board, for instance, in determining the physical condition of the men who get pensions? — A. The proceedings of the Medical Board dealing with pensions pass through our office. Q. Yes, but what is the relation of your office as the ultimate medical authority in the Dominion to the Pensions Board, in practice? — A. In practice we are very closely associated. Q. You are^ — A. Very closely. Q. Who determines the physical condition of the men who apply for a pension? — A. The medical officers in the district, the medical board. Q. What is your relation to them? — A. When the proceedings of that board come forward we scrutinize the board and pass it on to the Pensions Commission. Q. Have you a reviewing power? — A. Oh, yes. Q. You have, in practice? — A. You mean we could send that board back? Q. Yes? — A. We have that power. Q. Can you amend the findings? — A. No, we do not amend the findings. Q. But you yourselves have no power to alter, either by amendment or other- wise the findings of that board? — A. We can make remarks on that finding. Q. That necessitates the report going back to the board? — A. Not necessarily. It could be returned to the board with a remark " returned for reconsideration." Q. While the final tribunal to determine the amount of pension is the Pensions Board, I am trying to ascertain whether or not on the medical side of it your office exercises any jurisdiction at all, beyond sending it back to the original medical board for further consideration, that is in practice?— A. I think it would be impossible to actually alter a medical finding when you do not see the case. Q. That is what I want to know. So far as your office is concerned, you are merely an office through which a report passes from the medical board to the Pen- sions Board? — A. For checking and revision. Q. And if you feel dissatisfied with the report from the standpoint of the medical authorities, you send it back to the board? — A. Or if we think necessary from the special circumstances of the case we might forward it to the Pensions Commission with remarks. Q. That is exactly what I want to get to the bottom of. You do not see the case, you have not seen the ease? — A. That is obvious, we cannot. Q. That is obvious. The board see the case originally, and upon that base a report which is forwarded to you, is that right? — A. That is right. Q. And that report is for transmission to the Pensions Board? — A. That is right. [Colonel J. L. Potter.] RECEPTION, THE ATM EXT AM) RE-EDVCATION 79 Q. Then what I want to find out is by wliat right would you undertake to make reeonimendations to the Pensions Board other than those that have obtained in the report of the medical board who saw the patient? — A. It would not be in the nature of a recommendation, but rather in the nature of a remark on a special circumstance. We mipht know that this man had perhaps gone to England, the board in itself might not be as complete as we would wish; therefore it could be forwarded to the Pensions Commission with the remark : Will you take this board as it stands, otherwise it will mean more delay if it is sent back. Q. Do I not make myself clear: the Pension Board has not seen the soldier? A. There is no such thing as a Pension Board, the proper name is "The Pension Commission." Q. I accept your correction. The Pension Commissioners have not seen the soldier? — A. No, sir. Q. Then their judgment as to the man's physical condition, upon which they base a scale of pensions, is determined solely on the report of the Medical Board that sees the soldier? — A. Yes. Q. And that board reports to the Pensions Connnission through you? — A. Ye.«». Q. What I am endeavouring to find out is whether you — speaking as your office — e.xercise any jurisdiction with reference to that report, except to send it back for a move complete consideration or with a recommendation? — A. We do not attempt to influence the Pensions Commission. Q. Follow my question, please. Again: Does your office exercise any jurisdiction over the report made by the Medical Board that saw the wounded returned soldier and made a report to the Pensions Commission through your office? — A. Exactly what do you mean by jurisdiction, sir? Q, By way of recommending a revision of tlie report or sending it back "for further consideration ? — A. We could do any of these things with the exception that tlie original report by the Medical Board would always be there for comparison. Q. This is a vital matter and therefore I want to have the point clearly brought out. Can you revise that report? — A. What do you mean by revision? Hon. Mr. Murphy : Alter. Mr. MiDDLERHo: Add to it. The WiTXKss: We can add to but not alter the original- report. By Mr. Bennett: Q. On what authority can you add to that report without having se^n the soldier? — A. Because it may be api)arent in the report that the percentage assessed is out of all proportion. Q. How are you to sit as a judge on the reix)rt of the medical men who saw the soldier whom you did not see? — A. Take the case of the maai who has lost an eye. Medical Boards in different parts of the country have had a great deal of difficulty in arriving at a definite assessment of the disability because of the loss of an eye. Q. That is a matter solely under the jurisdiction of the Pensions Commission under the statute? — A. Exactly. Q. The question of the determining of the amount of a man's pension is fixed by the Pensions Commission and not by you? — A. Exactly. Q. So you have nothing to do with it? — A. Nothing to do with it, except we might say that the assessment for the loss of an eye is much greater than is usual. ^Ir. Bknnett: But that does not touch the question of revising the report. The Chairman: You act as a sort of Equalization Board? When you get two reports from different parts of the country putting a different degree of stress upon the loss of an eye you make equalization, do you not? [Colonel J. L. Potter.] 80 SPECIAL VOMMlTTEE—G.E.F.—ItErURNED HOLUIERH By Mr. Bennett: Q. You see this is vital fruui luy standpoint. If you have any power over this matter other than the determination of the man's condition, his physical condition might become a political instead of a purely administrative matter, and I want to make it clear tliat you have no power over that soldier?— A. No power to alter the original report, but we get particular instructions from the Pensions Commission. We know what they want and we try to get the information for them. Our function is to get the information for, the Pensions Commission. Q. Your office has no power to alter or vary any finding of fact made by a Medical Boani, has it? — A. No, sir. Q. They do not transmit the evidence to you, do they? — A. The proceedings ol the Board, I presume, form the evidence. Q. They do not re-cite the questions they ask, they merely send you a precis as to their determination? — A. The form of the proceedings of a Medical Board are laid down in question and answer. Q. And you send out that form to the Medical Board?— A. They have it in the respective Districts. Q. It is a printed standard form? I think we might have a copy of that form before us ultimately. Perhaps you will submit to us one of these forms which you send out to the Medical Board? — A. Y"e&. Q. And you send the Board no special instructions, but they are constituted for the administrative purpose only of determining the physical condition of the patient? — A. The standard instruction of the Pensions Commission are forwarded to the respective Districts, and are available to everybody there for guidance. Q. Those instructions are for universal application from one end of Canada to the other?— A. Yes. Q. So that every wounded and returned soldier who receives a pension is d^alt with by the one universal rule? — A. Exactly. Q. Carried out by the Medical Board and the Pensions Commission? — A. Yes. Q. Let me start the matter from the bottom and finish it up. Mr. A is an applicant for a pension, as he is a wounded, returned soldier. Trace his history up to the time he gets his pension, so far as your Department is concerned. — A. Mr. A is in a Convalescent Home. The time comes when his case has reached the state of finalit^y, medically. The Medical Officer immediately in charge of this case brings forward this case to the Medical Board. ^ Q. Who appoints the Medical Board?— A. The A.D.M.S. of the District. Q. And it consists of how many men?— A. Three. It may occasionally happen, if medical officers are lacking, that there will be but two, but there must be three if possible. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Is there just one Board for every Medical District? — A. No, Boards are pro- vided as required. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: * Q. As the cases arise? — A. Yes. The A.D.M.S. of the District provides the neees- pary medical personnel to constitute this Board. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Are they permanent? — A. It is viery difficult to obtain permanency in any ser- vices since the war. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You get the best men you can ? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Does the same Board which decides that Mr. A., for example, is mifit for fur- ther service and is a proper subject for a pension, also have to decide the question with [Colonel J. L. Potter.] RECEPTIOX, TREATMENr AND RE-EDUCATIOX 81 reference to a pension? — A. The Medical Board, in deciding as to disability and dis- charge do that work for the Pensions Commission. Tiie proceedings of the Medical Board are then sent in by the members of the Board. . It is made in a form provided by the Department, whicli has been settled by the Medical Officers after consideration. That is then forwarded to Ottawa. Q. In addition to giving the questions and answers of the man, they make a report, do they not, making a finding as to his physical condition? — ^A. The form is made up in the questions and answers, so that when the Medical Officer brings forward a case, and passes .upon it, the Board can make their remarks on anything in the statements mad(> l).v him, and give their finding, which may agree, ov not, with his statement. Q. Then what next? — iV. The proceedings of the Board are forwardixl t« Ottawa. Q. That is when your Department first comes in in the cnse of Mr. ''A''? — A. Our officer at Ottawa, yes. Q. What do you do? — A. The "Board" is read over to see if it is correct in that there is no obvious error made, and that sufficient information has been given to enable the Pensions Commissioner to deal with the report when it comes to him. Q. In other words to complete the revision? — A. A revision of it — a checking up, if you like. Q. To see whether or not all the information that could le got has been given, that is your primary reason? — ^^A. Yes. Q. What next? — A. It is approved and passed to the Pensions Board. By the Chairman: Q. If the information is complete, in your judgment, it goes to the Pensions Board?— A. Yes. Q. Supposing it is incomplete? — A. If it is dncomplete, or if it is obvious that there is any other way of getting information from other documents, it is returned, it has to be, hecause we know the Pensions Board would not accept it. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Incompleteness is more or less negligence? — A. Possibly lack of information, to obtain information from other documents. By the Chainn^n: Q. It is returned to the original Board which made it? — A. Returned to the dis- trict where the A.D.M.S. sees that the case is reconsidered. Q. On the ground that the data is insufficrient for the Pensions Board ? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Do you suggest that it is subject to insufficiency? — A. On the particular point involved. Q. Do you suggest 'anything in addition any new matter to be gone into? — A. We suggest anything tluit we think is necessary to giive the raau's case a fair consideration. That is our whole object. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You mentioned a moment ago previous documents. Obviou^Jy those documents have nothing to do with the man's "then"' physioal condition, that Board has to deter- mine the man's "then" physical condition, has it not ? — A. It ha^. Q. Then lif the Board is there for the purpose of detei-mining the majj's "then" condition, what have these previous document* to do with that condition? — A. Because there are documents in connection with every soldier's <*ase that have a direct bearing upon it. There is the previous ^Nfedical Board proceedings, conduct-sheet, etc., that may requdre consideration by the ]\redical Board. Q. They are already on record? — A. As far as possible they are. but documents get lost sometimes. [Colonel J. J J. Potter. 1 28277—6 82 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Middlebro: Q. When the man's answers come hack to you, there will be found all the ques- tions and answers asked by the local Board? — A. Yes. Q. As soon as the questions are complete do you ever revise the comments that they make upon this examination, do you clianKc the finding-s that they make? — A. No! Q. You do not do that, you do not attempt to do that? — A. The officer checking that might make a remark of something- that was very much out of the ordinary, but it does not in any way affect their findings. Q. If you come to a different conclusion to what the Board came to on the questions and answers, would you take any action upon that? — A. If it were obvious that the Pensions Commission should have their attention drawn to it, it would be done. Q. By way of recommend(ation ? — A. By way of recommendation, but dt must then go to the Pensions Board. Brigadier-General Masox : Perhaps Colonel Potter might give us a specific case by way of illustration. Hon. Mr. Murphy: Would it not be better to get the ordinary procedure of the Board along the line started by Mr. Bennett before ive proceed to that. By Mi: BenneH: Q. Along that line, I want to ask you, you have a Superior Officer? — A. Yes. Q. I want to make you declare whether or not, after dealing with the question of pensions, it would be possible for a superior officer to say to you "Colonel Potter, I want Mr. " A " to get a better pension ", and to get a recommendation whereby " A " would get a better pension than he would by the application of these principles which have been laid down for the guidance of the Board. There must be no chance of a soldier gettdng special consideration in that way? — A. My inclination, in a ci^se like that, would be to make a special report to my superior officer on what has happened. Q. But you have not any power? — A^ No, I would never have any conversation like that with a man. Q. I have been told many times that can happen, and we should make it quite clear that it is not so. — A. What can happen, as anybody can see, is I think this complaint has been made that a man has been harshly or unfairly treated, and when a complaint of that kind is made there is no reason why it should not be reconsidered. Q. And the man himself can demand that ? — A. Yes. Q. So far as your Board is concerned, you have no original power to make a recommendation and to determine what he shall get? — A. We deal with nothing but the medical examination of the case. Q. And if it is unsatisfactory that report goes back to the Board? — A. Yes. Q. But the man himself might ask for reconsideration? — A. Certainly. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Supposing ^ report is complete and quite satisfactory, and you did not send it back to the medical Board, what would you do with it? — A. It goes to the Pension Commissioner. Q. It goes out of your hands? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. The word " revision " is not, 1 think, a proper word to be used in this con- nection. If the data which is laid before the witness is incomplete, he sends it back and asks them to make it complete, and if the data is complete, he forwards that to the Pensions Board. [Colonel J. L. Potter.] ^ HECEl'TlOy, JIIEAIMEXT AM) Rh-EDt (Alluy 83 By Brijjadier-Gcneral Mason: Q. Do you remember any ease in which such action was taken? — A. It very, very treort that is being put in this morning?— A. No, that is another matter. They have it under advisement, and they might answer your enquiry with reference to it. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What report is that ?— A. It is a report on that tiuestion, practically. Q. When was that filed ? — A. I could not give you the exact date. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. How long ago? — A. There are several reports on the subject; I would have to look up the correspondence. I may say that matter is one with my superior officers at the present time, and I think they might very properly answer that question. By the Chairman: Q. Is that a matter that the Adjutant-General would be able to tell us about ? He is directly your superior officer? — A. Yes, I think it might be asked of him. The Chairman: If he was questioned on that matter he could give us that information? Hon. Mr. Belcoiht: He would likely say: My superior officer should be asked, and pass it on. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Whom do you report to?— A. It is a matter which has been under discussion for some time. Q. You made several written reports before this Military Hospitals Command was formed at all? — A. I would not say the report was directed to the Adjutant-General. It was reporting on a situation generally which has-been under the Adjutant-General's office. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. To whom was the report made?— A. To the Department. Everything is for ;he Minister's information. Q. It is to the Minister that the report went? — A. Really. Hon. Mr. Mukphv : Mr. Bennett suggests that that report should be produced. I think it should be. By the Chairman : Q. As I understand, there are several of them ? — A. They are more in the nature <'i minutes from time to time to the Adjutant-General, but the Minister was in pos- ^ession of all the information. 28277— 6:i [Colonel J. L. Potter.] 84 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RET Uny ED SOLDIERS Mr. Bennett: The witness is right as to that. His duty is done when he has transmitted a report to his superior, and it is ]iroper to get it from the superior and not from him. He is under military discipline to that extent. The Chairman : Shall we ask the Department of IMilitia to furnish us with that report ? 'Concurred in, and instruction given to the Clerk accordingly. Hon. Mr. Murphy: How will these reports be identified? My question was: Is there any reason why the work done by the Hospitals Commission should not be done by the Army Medical Service? Mr. Bennett: The Chairman of the Military Hospitals Commission would tell us, as being responsible for that organization, how he thinks it should best be done. The Chairman: Are you through with Col. Potter? If so we will let him retire. I may say that I have here, through the speed and despatch of the Militia Department, a copy of the report to the Hon. the Minister of Militia upon the Medical Service of Canada generally and in respect to the C.E.F. particularly, by Col. F. W. Marlowe, C.A.M.C., A.D.M.S., M.D. No. 2„ acting as principal Medical Inspector in. respect to the C.E.F., Canada, dated October 20th, 1916, also a Memorandum to the Adjutant- General upon Col. Marlow's report to the Hon. the Minister, by the A/D. G.M.S.. dated 1st February, 1917. There is only one copy of these documents, and if it is the wish of the Committee we will have typewritten copies made and mailed to each member. Shall we permit Col. Potter to retire? The Witness: I have been looking over my evidence, and I think there are some things I would like to revise. The Chairman : Very well. If Col. Potter wants to revise his evidence we vriil be glad to have him here at half-past two this afternoon. Witness retired. The Chairman : I am going to ask the Committee to hear Senator McLennan, who has given much time to the vocational training and employment section of the Mili- tary Hospitals Commission. Senator McLennan is here to-day, and he is going away next week, and I think he can give us a statement regarding the work along these lines carried on by the Hospitals Commission that would be useful. Is it the pleasure of the Committee that we should ask Senator McLennan to say a few words? The Hon. J. S. McLennan, Called: The Chairman : I have already mentioned to the Committee your Introduction to the Special Bulletin of the Militai-y Hospitals Commission. You might tell us about the rehabilitation of the soldier as carried on by the Hospitals Commission. Hon. Mr. McLennan : The whole subject was new to us in Canada, as it was to everybody dealing with the problems of the war. What struck one in the early days in our smaller convalescent homes was the great disadvantage of idleness. If you went in any time after nine o'clock in the morning you would find the men in idleness, simply putting in the time amusing themselves until it was time to go_to bed. Many of the men had been for a considerable time in hospital on the other side before they came out to Canada, and they were then fairly well cured men, bvit would require treatment' for a good many months with us. I suppose there would be many men who from the time of their wounds or disability, would require over a year before they would be in a position to go before the Pensions Board and be discharged. Therefore, during that time the effect of idleness was demoralizing to them, rendering them less active and less capable of going out into the world and taking their proper positions as civilians. Everybody connected with the care of the soldier saw that it was extremely [Hon. J. S. McLennan.] RECEPTIOy, TKEATMEST AND RE-EDUCATION 85 undesirable that he should go out and live in idleness for the rest of his life, either with his pension, or in a soldiers' home, or as a member of something that would correspond to the Grand Army of the Republic in the United States. The guiding conception, I think, was that we were not dealing with soldiers in the ordinary sense, but that we were dealing with citizens who had taken up arms for a cause they con- sidered worthy, had suffered in that cause, and were to be returned as soon as jwssible to what they were in essence, namely citizens of Canada again. So the first phase of the work that was taken up was to give these men occupations which would be inci- dentally beneficial to them in the way of education. What that education was, or what the value of the output should be, were not matters very much to be considered from the economic side, but from the social side it would give these men during certain hours uf the day a mental and physical training that would benefit them and sharpen them up, which is a distinct advantage. Schools for that purpose were established in nearly all our convalescent homes. I may say gentlemen, that I did not expect to speak to you this morning, and that a more detailed account will be giveu to you bj' Mr. Kidner, who has been the active officer in establishing this work. I will give you m'erely the general principles on Avhich the Commission has been endeavouring to work. In what you may call occupational training the men do all sorts of things; there are some simple subjects, they brush up their three " r's " as it were, make fancy articles, such as boxes and picture frames, and in many cases there is a metal industry. In Montreal the men are engaged in wood and metal working, and they have orders for more of that kind of thing than they can turn out. B.ij Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. What are those things^ — A. Trays, tables, and that kind of woodworking, and some metal working, and people come and buy them. They are very creditable per- formances. - Q. How many men arc doing that kind of work? — A. Mr. Kiduer will tell you that. The number would vary, because that work depends entirely on the length of time that a man is in the home. The other class are the men who are unable to resume their former occupations. These men the Government has, through the Com- mission, undertaken to train in some new trade or occupation, which they might pursue in place of the trade they are no longer able to carry on. For example, a house painter who has been touched with shrapnel and is subject to fits of giddiness cannot any longer carry on his old trade because he would be liable to fall from a ladder. Hence, he is trained in some other work, and the general principle universally followed in dealing with these matters is to take advantage of all the skill that is left to the man. Instead of making that man a motor engineer, for example, you would probably endeavour to direct his attention into some form w^hich would enable him to exercise his skill with a brush, and perhaps make him a sign writer. In the same way, we deal with men in other trades. For example, a molder is suffering from a wound which has weakened his back so that he is no longer able to lift heavy weights, as a molder has to do. Such a man would be trained along lines in which his skill in the working of metals would count, so that he could take the place of foreman in a mold- ing shop by improving his education. One tiling that delayed the progress of the work in that regard in its earlier stages was the uncertainty about a i>ension. It was deemed of very great advantage in France and in England, if a man learned any useful trade or occupation during his l>eriod of convalescence that increased his earning power, to reduce his pension. Last year, however, the Canadian Parliament, with the greatest wisdom, laid down the general principle that increased earning capacity should not interfere with the pen- sion. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. The French Government still reduces the pension according as the man develoi>s his earning power? — A. They were doing so the last time the matter came under my knowledge. [Hon. J. S. ^IcLennan.] 86 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RErURNED SOLDIERS Q. And the British Govoriiment were doiiiy the same thing? — A. The whole question of pensions lias been up for consideration in Great Britain, and I do not know to what extent there has been a reduction. Mr. Kidner tells me that the British Government have reduced the sustenance allowance but not the pension. Q. In reading- the literature of Britain and of France on this subject, you must always bear in mind that their pensions take cognizance of the man's ability to earn. — A. Yes. Canada has established the very wise provision that no deduction should be made in a man's pension by reason of his undertaking to equip himself to engage in some form of industry', and it has been of enormous advantage in dealing with this matter. For that reason men have been much more ready to take up the learning of some occupation which would enable them to become viseful citizens rather than remain dependent on their pensions. A further difficulty we encountered in the progress of our work had reference to the sustenance of the man and his family during the time he was undergoing re-educa- tion. That, however, has been provided for, and IMr. Kidner will disclose to you the details of the arrangement. By the Chairman: Q. There is an Order in Council which covers that ^ — A. There is an Order in Council which covers that. These are the two great classes with which we have been identified, and they involve the provision of techinieal training, and what you might call elementary training in practically every home that we have. But between these two classes of men, there are others who need to be given occupation on medical and other grounds. Quite a few men, when their period of treatment is over, will go back to their old occupations with more or less of a pension, but it seems a pity that they should not, during the four, six or eight months that they are in our institutions, be given a good sound training along technical and educational lines, particularly a- the Government is providing for the other two classes in these respects. Doubtles- action will be taken in this direction, although there has yet been no formal decision by the Commission with respect to it. Certainly we should endeavour to do the very best we can for these men while they are with us. Even should a man be returned to his own trade he can get from us a training, if he is willing to take it, that will make of him a better artisan, or craftsman, as the ease may be. This idea has commended itself, I think, to everybody who has been consulted in regard to it. Those men who remain in the hospital for a long time form a not inconsiderable number, and if we can, without any serious additional expenditure, make any of them more intelligent and efficient in their own trades, or shift them into other pursuits from occupation? in which they have been more or less misfits, I think we shall be justified in doing so. The matter is likely to develop — and in this connection I am anticipating, 1 hope, the Commission's decision — for the Ontario Government, as you all know, ha- evacuated the Whitby Institution, and turned it over to us. The building, when com- pleted, will accommodate from 1,000 to 1,200 men, and will afford a splendid oppor- tunity for the installation of schools of a very wide range without increasing the cost. At Guclph also the Ontario Government is giving us very large accommodation, enabling us to utilize the factories and various shops which have been established there by the Provincial authorities, not operating them entirely by means of returned soldiers, because that could not be done, but in each department, training a certain number all the time. The industries in question include, as perhaps you know, woollen mills and furniture factories. Furthermore, the Agricultural College is located at Guelph, and there the returned soldiers who are so disposed may get a good training in agricultural science. These are the lines and the places at which our work will be carried on at first, and we shall develop it elsewhere through the country as the necessity is seen to arise. But in the meantime in all the provinces work is being carried on in the two other Depart- [Hon. J. S. McLennan. 1 RECEFTWS, TREATMEyr AXD RE-EDICATIOX 87 meiits, and the general principle we would be inclined to advance is that we want to make a man take up productive work, as far as possible, rather than administrative work. That second class of men will probably produce a considerable amount of material, which is sufficient in volume, to be marketed and to be produced in a large way. There comes in the question as to what the man should get for the work. If a man is idle he gets his $1.10 a day, just the same as if he works ; but you do not want to give the man enough, even if he is producing something, to make him want to settle in any institution indefinitely; and apparently the sound principle of remuneration would be to give him something to stimulate him to work and learn his trade as well as possible and, in no event, to make him feel that he wants to settle in one of our institutions indefinitely. By lion. Mr. Murphy: Q. Unless what he receives in connection with that kind of work is less in an insti- tution than what he would receive for the same work outside there would be a tendency that way? — A. That is the line on which we are working, although in no institution has that stage yet been reached. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Have you found that the inducement which is offered the men of bettering their condition has been appreciated by any large number? — A. A verj' considerable number, and, I think, on the whole the result is gratifying. I would like to call the attention of the Committee to one question, which is a very important oTie. and one that we have not yet dealt with: there is now abundant labour in Canada, but the time will come when there will be less, distinctly less. The Chairman: Abundance of labour? The Witness: Abundance of opportunity for labour, I should say — demand for lal)our; but the time will come when that will probably )iot be the case. A great many of our men will be below normal: they will be invalids, some of them without one eye, others without one arm, or with some other disability. Now when that time comes and the employer is in a position to choose between the man with some disability and a " whole " man, in other words when there is no scarcity of labour, the employer fan very well pick and choose his men, and he will naturally chose a " whole '' man. with whom there will be less risk, one more likely to be absolut-ely regular at work, and at the same time less liable to accident. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. If these m^n in the meantime have improved their knowledge of their particular trade or avocation, will that not compensate a great deal for the other disability? — A. Certainly, a great deal, and that is what we hope we will achieve. that men who go through our institutions will be so much more expert and so much better trained in their worlc. whatever it may be, that they will have very much to compensate for the physical disability llrom which they suffer. But that, 1 am inclined to believe, will not reach far enough, and I think Canada will have to take up- as France has taken up, and as England is taking- up. the question of the State paying the extra accident insurance whicii that man's disability lays on him. Mr. MiDDLKBHO: In Ontario we have the Workmen's Compensation Act which covers that point. Hon. Mr. Belcoirt : And in Quebec that is also provided for. The Witness: Yes, but the employer will not take a maimed man. You have the one-armed soldier, who goes back into the factory, or ])erhai>s you have the one-eyeti soldier, both are a little more liable to be caught in the machinery, or the one-legged man is more liable to accident than tlic man with two feet. [Hon. J. S. McLennan.] 88 S;PEriAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RET I'Ry ED SOLDIERS Mr. MiDDLEBRO: Yes, but liis compensation in case of accident is fixed on the basis of the salarj' he is earning and therefore the liability of the employer from that risk it not so great. The Witness; But if the employer can choose between two men, one with a disability, and one without that disability he will be inclined to choose the one with- out the disability. Mr. ]\IiDDLEBRO: But in case of accident the employer will have to pay compen- sation for injury according to the wages a man earns, so that the man that gets less wages will not get as inuch compensation as the employer would have to pay in the case of a better man. The Witness: That is what we do not want that any of our returned soldiers should get half wages or no employment. Mr. MiDDLEBRo: You do not think he will be as efficient with a limb off as he would be without having a limb off? Hon. Mr. Belcourt: The pension is given in compensation for that. The Witness: It seems to me that is a question which should have some con- sideration as to whether we should do anything along those lines or not. Mr. MiDDLEBRO: Y"ou started off on the assumption that it might injure that man because he was unable to earn a living by reason of the injury received. The answer to that is if you, as you say, take the mutilated man and by treatment he is enabled to earn good wages, therefore he will be getting, including his pension, as much as the other man, who is not maimed, will. In other words, he would get as much wages as the whole man, and he would get his pension besides. The WiTNE^^s: I have said that we aim to make him as efficient as before, or to supplement by the training the physical disability under which he suffers. Hon. Mr. McCurdy: He would still carry extra risk of accident all the same, by reason of that physical disability. Mr. MiDDLEBRO: I think, si)eaking offhand, with what he gets by way of jjension, as well as -what he gets with his improved education would be more than he could make as a "well" man; although I think he should be placed in a little better position than he w^as before. The Chairman: Y'ou might say. Senator, wliat you had in mind upon that ques- tion. The Witness: This is largely my own personal opinion, I am not speaking now for the whole Commission, because it has not yet been worked out — I thipk that the man with a disability is less likely to earn a livelihood where the employer is in a position to choose between two men, one with a disability, and one without. Mr. MiDDLEBRO: At the same price. The Witness: At the same price. That, in so far as it is a physical question, as regards the risk of accident, which involves that employer, the risk is greater with a man who has some physical disability than it is with a man who has none. T submit that it is a question whether the country should consider that risk and that disability and provide extra accident inmrancc for the man in that position in order that he may find after he has been trained that he will still be in a position to get employment on terms not unequal with the whole man. Mr. MiDDLEBRO: The principle is all right. The Witness: Another thing, even if the man is equally well off financially, the fact that we want as many of these returned soldiers to be producers as possible is one that should not be lost sight of. Even, if the man has a pension or private means, it is to the economic advantage of Canada to make that man productive, and that when he enters into the labour market that he should be at no disadvantage as compared with the unmaimed man in his chances of seeking employment. [Hon. J. S. McLennan.] RECEFTIOS, TJiEATMENT AS D RE-EDUCATION 89 By the Chairman: Q. That is the basic principle you follow?— A. Yes, and which many of the con- tinental nations are following, France particularly, 1 do not think it has reached the itage of law yet that the State should assume that burden or obviate that particidar disability. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Is not this the situation. Senator: that where a soldier is maimed, and tlieref(.re more liable to accident on aeeount of his disability, when he applies to an accident insurance company frence between his rate as an ordinary man and his rate a-^ a maimed man. Hon. Mr. McCurov: In other words, would put liim in the same position as before he was injured as regards accident insurance. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. You are oidy referring to physical disability, not to pathological conditions as a result of indigestion or rheumatism for example?— A. -^'o. Mr. Bennett: That is covered by the Workmen's Compensation Act in any event. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. In France as a man becomes efficient, his pension is decr<'asod?- -A. That is iiot yet determined, that has been the practice. Q. It is the law now in France that the amount of pension determines his ability to earn a living?— A. It has been, but there is a very strong agitation and unless it lias ibeen recently passed it has not come to a determination one way or the other, as I remember the state of the question. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Will you tell us how long a man may take advantage of these betterment con- ditions which you speak of, tills technical training, can he have as much of that as he chooses? — A. No, practically not, only while he is being treated. And there is a (picstion coming up there that has not yet been quite determined by us and which is now under consideration. A man goes an to a home and the medical prediction is that he will be six months in the convalescent home while he is having whatever is the troulde with him straightened out and brought down to the lowest possible point. Q. If he is able to take the traindng he can do so? — A. Yes, and the whole Euro- pean experience has shown that the nearer to the time of the actual wound that he can commence his re-education the better. There is this doubtful situation, you assume a man is going to be six months in a home having his bad arm or leg, or other adlment, hoaled up. You start in to train him. or to improve him in his old trade, or to retrain him. Suppose he gets on very well physically and his physical cure is completed in four months let us say. Now, he is two-thirds through his educational training or perhaps more, and it seems a pity to waste that, and yet we have not as yet felt justified in keeping that man on under pay and allowances in order to com- plete his education. So that is a question we will have to decide, and I think probably the line will be that if the man will make some sacrifice, I think it would be desirable, .^ay, to board and lodge him and give him pocket money if he is willing to go on with his education, rather than to tuni him out for the ?ake of a couple of months and so lose the work you have been doing on him for four months. By Mr. Ross (Middlese.v) : (}. Have you any definite nde in regard to when a man shall be examined by a board to determine the amount of his pension? Fronrwlnat you have said it seems to me that that man should be examined just as soon as he possibly can be in order that [Hon. J. S. McLennan.] 90 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS liiis pension can be determined, because he is then more willing to learn. Is a man in tlie hospital, six days, or three months or six months before he is examined for re- education? It would lead to economy I think to have him examined as soon as he goes into a eonv^alescent home. "V\niat is the practice as a matter of fact? — A. The man is examined by the medical board Col. Potter spoke of, and he is sent to one of o"ur homes where he is under medical supervision and treatment all the time. Q. Is that done promptly, or do they dilly dally ? — A. The pension is based on his ultimate disability. When our medical skill is no longer able to improve that man's condition, then he is able to go before a medical board and have luis pension determined on the remaining amount of stiffness, for example. Q. You mean you keep him there for six weeks or three months for the purpose of finding out what hii pension would be? Hon. j\lr. Belcourt: It depends on the doctor dn charge of the hospital. The ques- tion is whether the doctor exercises his proper discretion. The Witness: We keep him as long as his physical condition can be improved. Just as soon as our medical staff says that man is as well cured as he can be, then he is boarded. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. It rests with your doctor to say so? — A. The doctors in charge of our boms say when that man should be boarded. Q. Are they doing that as soon as he comes to a certain point? — A. We are trying to, and on the whole — there have been cases where there has been delay in tlie early days when the Militia medical service was terribly rushed. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Have you an officer whose special duty it is to see that that is done? — A. Yes, the medical officer in charge, and in addition to that we have an dnspector from the head office, one of Col. Thompson's assistants, who travels over the whole country looking into the medical administration of our hospitals and homes, and one very important part of his duty is to see that the men are not kept there any longer than they should be, or to transfer them from one home to another where they wll get better appliances. By the Chah'man: Q. How about your out patients. Are they also under the same supervision so that as soon as an out patient is regarded as cured, he too may be boarded and his pension settled ? — A. Yes, there has been a very material improvement in that respect, both in reducing the number of out patients and in getting them through and boarded. Q. I was going to ask if, as you state of late there has been a tightening "up, you ^ire able to say that men who are ready for their discharge, are no longer delayed in your hospitals because their pensions have not been adjudicated upon? — A. I tliink there has been a veiy great improvement in that respect. Q. It is a waste to the State to have a mian still in your hospital when he is ready for discharge, because the next step has not been techndcally performed for him? — A. The last step taken in regard to that is that forms were being prepared in order to place the responsiibility for any such delay: There would be a notifieation, a fortnight or ten days in advance, to the Medicial Board, that a patient would probably be ready for discharge, or rather for examination by the Board, on the 10th of the month, or whatever date it might be. If there was any delay in his treatment, so thiat the man would not be ready at the specified time, it would be reiiorted to the Examining Board. Our head office is to be informed that the notification was given and also if any delay occurs. It is hoped by such action to eliminate the possibility of delay. Witness discharged. [Hon. J. S. McLennan.] RECEl'TIOX, TliEATMEM AXD UE-EUIVATIOS 91 Mr. T. B. KinM:i{ called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. In the Order in Council creating tlie Military ITosi)itals Commission, Provi- sion B, we find that tlie work of the Commission falls under three heads. The second head is the provision of vocational training for those who, through disability incurred on active service, would be unable to follow their previous occupations. I understand you are the officer, under the Military ITospitiils Commission, in whose hands the carrying out of this work especially lies? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You may give a statement to the Committee of what steps have been taken since the creation of the Military Hospitals Commission towards the vocational traiu- ing of injured men. Hon. Mr. MiRPiiv: If you will permit me, before doing that, it might help in the appreciation of 'Mr. Kidner's evidence if he would tell us what his previous occupation was prior to assuming his present position. The WiTNEs.s : I was a teacher of technical subjects and an organizer of technical work in p]ngland. In 1900 I came to Canada as an organizer under the Macdonald Fund, of which Ur. James W. Robertson was the administrator. I was sent to the province of Nova Scotia to organize technical work and I spent four years there. By tlie Chairman: Q. Under the Provincial Government? — A. For three years under the Macdonald Fund, working with the approval of the Provincial Government, and for one year under the Government itself. I then went to New Brunswick, where, for seven years, 1 carried on similar work. By lion. Mr. Murphy: Q. For the Provincial Go^'ernment? — A. Yes, for the Government of New Bruns- wick. In 1911 I was appointed Director of Technical Education for the city of Cal- gary, where I developed certain new lines of technical work and had general charge of all the technical work in the schools. A year ago, about January 1, I obtained leave of absence for an indefinite period from the Calgary school authorities. By the Chairman : Q. In order that you might take up this work '. — A. In order that I might take up this work. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. Have you been overseas? — A. Do you mean since tlie war broke out? Q. I mean, have you gone over there purposely to examine the institutions on the other side? — A. No, it has not been possible. There has been a great deal too much to do here. The Chairman : Perhaps the best way to proceed will be for you to give your state- ment, and when members of the Committee ask you to do so, you can amplify it. You can go back to the main lines of your statement after the explanations have been given. The WiTNKss: Supplementing what Senator MacLennan has told you, I might say that at the meeting of the Hospitals Commission, held in Montreal on February 5, 1910, Senator MacLennan offered to devote himself especially to the work of functional and vocational re-education. The offer was accepted, and the honourable senator has taken the closest interest in the matter ever since. I make this explanation because Senator IMacLennan is ref err< d to in one or two extracts from the minutes of that meeting, which I should like to read. The following is «in extract from the minutes of the meeting of the Commission, held at :Montreal on February 5: (Reads). The followiiig extract from the minutes of the meeting of the Commission held in ilontreal on February- 5, 1916, states the general plan upon which the work has been carried on in the Convalescent Hospitals:— [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] 92 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Vocational Re-education: — Mr. T. B. Kidiier, Vocational Secretary, suggested that the term " Func- tional re-edueation " be used to denote the retraining of the disabled men on the physical side and that the term " Vocational re-education " be used to denote the technical training for new occupations. As Mr. MacLennan had said- these two phases of re-education must be closely related from the beginning in each case. V By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Are the definitions of these respective terms peculiar to this Commission, or are they generally accepted definitions? — A. They are the definitions used in France and by ourselves. They are new terms in medicine and in education, but they are becoming general. By the Chairman: Q. As I understand, the distinction between them is that functional re-education is to enable a man to pursue his old vocation ?^=rA. l^o, sir. Functional re-education is a medical matter. Q. That is to put him in physical condition? — A. Or perhaps mental, so that his body will function properly, in all directions. As far as may be possible, functional training should proceed side by side with vocational re-education. Now let me quote further: (Reads). " Mr. Kidner stated that preparations are being made for a complete survey of the physical and functional disability of each case; also of the educational and industrial history of the man. The information thus obtained will be carefully considered by a vocational counsellor with the view of determining the best kind of occupation the invalid can follow; taking into account his physical disability, the trade or calling which he followed previously, his aptitudes, his intelligence and his tastes. Mr. Kidner also emphasized the advisability of taking account of the needs of the various industries so that there may be no difficulty in the " placement " of the re-educated men ; also that assistance may be afforded to industries in need of trained workers. " As an immediate step which the Commission might take, Mr. Kidner recommended for consideration the plan of opening a school in connection with each Convalescent Home. Under a suitable teacher, instruction could be given in English, Practical Arithmetic, Industrial History and Geography and related subjects. For those whose mother tongue is not English (of whom there are likely to be a considerable number) instruction in the English language would be an important feature of the work." That, I may say, refers to our foreign born population of whom there are a great many in the West, who enlisted in the C. E. F. " In addition to the general subjects, as outlined in the foregoing, provision should be made for instruction in some simple forms of manual work, such as Draughting, Modelling, Basketry, Bench-work in wood and metal, etc. A con- siderable amount of voluntary help may be expected in this work, but it will be necessary in most places for the Commission to employ an instructor -^vho shall be responsible for the organization and conduct of the school, together with assistants in the larger centres. These instructors should be carefully selected with a view to their ability to deal with adult pupils. " The instruction provided should be open to all inmates, also to outpatients residing near the homes, whether or not they are later to be cases for re-eduea- tion for new occupations. The value would be threefold. First, it would pro- vide occupation for the men and thus assist in maintaining the discipline in the [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] RECEPTIOX, TREATMElsT AND RE-EDUCATION 93 Homes; second, it would afford interest and exorcise and thus have a therapeutic value; and, third, it would enable a man to improve his chances for employment after recovery. " In the case of men destined for technical re-education experience has shown that almost all men require training: in general subjects before they can properly benefit by special training. " After some questions and discussion, the Commission decided that ^Ir. Kidner should proceed at once with the organization of schools in the Convales- cent Homes." That was at the meeting in Montreal, in February last. B>i the Chairman: Q. Aro you prepared to tell us at this stage of the organization of these school?, and how many of them there are? — A. I can give you that. Sir, and the subjects taught in the diiferent institutions of which I have a list before me. The first on the list is the convalescent hospital at Ogden, Calgary, Alberta, which is now known as the Red Cross Military Convalescent Hospital. Bij Brigadier- General Mason: Q. How many are there in that hospital? — A. About 125. The subjects taught are gardening and poultry work. Civil Service preparation, commercial and business subjects, general elementary subjects and arts and crafts, that is wood and light metal work, motor mechanics and electrical work. Bi/ Hon. Mr. Belcoiirt: Q. What staff have j^ou to impart this knowledge? — A. There are four or five men there. Sir, five men and the Director of the whole province. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Where were these men obtained? Were they engaged in otlier schools and taken from those other schools to that institution? — A. We have had very great diflBculty in getting sufficient instructors. We had not enough qualified instructors to supply the needs of Canada before the war and, for the past seventeen years, we have been importing men from Great Britain and the United States for our technical work. As a great many technical men enlisted (no less than five men from the teclmical staff in the city of Calgary alone), and went over-seas, and that is true of most cities — one of the great difficulties we have exi^erienced has been in obtaining suitable instructors. We have obtained them in variovxs ways; in one instance we procured a man's discharge when he was going overseas. In other instances we have brought men back, men who have been slightly disabled, from the other side. One of the best instructors we have at Montreal is a man who was wounded and was sent over as the Conducting Officer with a party of sick, and we have retained him with the permission of the Adjutant- General. Yesterday another man was engaged, a young man who was hurt, shot through the hand, who is to be engaged in supervision. It is very difficult to obtain suitable instructors. Q. Where do you get the rest of your men? — A. From various sources. Q. From the United States? — A, We have not yet brought in any men from the United States, although some of our men have lived in the United States and obtained experience there, but it has not been necessary up to the present to bring in men from the United States. Q. During the seventeen years that you speak of, have there not been men in Canada, Canadians, who are qualified for your business ?^A. Yes; I am speaking on general lines. We were short of instructors before the war and it retarded the work [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] 94 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS because of our inability to get instructors. The Koss Convalescent Hospital, at Sydney, N.S., instructs in wood-work, mechanical drawing, general subjects, and com- mercial subjects. By Hon. Mr. Belcouti : Q. Will you give us the number of the staff in each case? — A. The difficulty is that if I gave you the staff there it might not give the information you want. I could give you a return covering the whole of our schools, but the staff in that particular instance, as in some other cases, go to the school classes for certain periods through the day. We have four instructors there; each teaching for part-time only. Q. Well, take the Calgary school? — A. Our experience is, generally, that if there are one hundred names on the list, it needs from three to four instructors to look after them properly. In the case of the smaller Homes, such as the Ross Home, which only accommodates from 30 to 35 men, we have had " visiting " teachers who arc paid so much per hour for teaching. In the Ross Home if their time were all added together, it would be about equal to the whole time of one and a quarter instructors. Q. Do you find that by that method there is sufficient instruction? — A. Yes, in that instance. Q. Do you think it is necessary to augment that teaching? — A. We do the best we can, but in small Convalescent Homes that is one of the difficulties we have to contend with; it is most difficult to arrange for proper instruction in some of the smaller Convalescent Hospitals or Homes. Q. You spoke of Whitby, what was that institution used for before it came into your possession ?-^— A. That was one of the very best planned institutions for the treat- ment of mental cases and has a model equipment. A party of men were sent in there last week for the first time, and the equipment for vocational instruction is being sent there now. The next on my list is the Clayton Military Convalescent Hospital at Halifax, which was specially established to deal with those coloured men of whom Dr. Thomp- son spoke; in fact that was entirely a re-education centre; every man there had to be re-educated for some new vocation because he had suffered amputation. The occupa- tions for which these men were trained were, garment-making, shoe-making and repairing, tinsmithing, chauffeur, bookkeepiiig. In addition, each man was given instruction in general subjects. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. I understand there were 100 negroes there; did they come from Canada? Where did they come from? — A. From Jamaica. Q. Are they going to settle in Canada? — A. They have gone back to Jamaica, but the ^Jilitary Hospitak Commission as it had the staff and conveniences, under- took to provide tiiese luen with voearional training and artificial limbs at the co'-t of the Imperial authorities. Q. These men are not eligible for pension in Canada 'I — A. No, Sir, thev are Imperial soldiers. In the Grey Nuns Hospital at Montreal are taught commercial and general subjects, woodworking, drafting, motor, mechanics, shoe repairing and light metal work. At the Deer Lodge Convalescent Hospital, Winnipeg, we have garden- ing and poultry, arts and crafts, drafting, commereinl and general courses, motor mechanics, welding, etc. By Hon. Mr. MrCurdy: Q. As you go on, can you tell us the number of patients or students in each of these places?— A. I will give that later. Sir. I should like to ])oint out that wherever there has been accommodation, in addition to the subjects suggested at the meeting .of the Commission last year, outdoor subjects have been arranged, such as gardening, [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] RECEPTIOy, TREATMENT AND JiE-EDVCATION 95 poultry-keeping and bee-keeping, with the hope that some men, at least will be given a bias towards these things and take them up afterwards, even if only as hobbies, in civil life. At Esquimalt, at the Old Naval Hospital, we have motor mechanics, com- mercial subjects, general subjects and woodworking. At the Parks Convalescent Home, St. John, N.B., we have general subjects, mechanical drawing, woodworking and commercial subjects. At Savard Park Convalescent Hospital, Quebec, we have general and commercial subjects and woodw^orking. In Toronto we have elementary general subjects in a room borrowed from the Lansdowne public school for Spadina patients. For patients at Spadina and Ceneral Hospitals, we have elementary general subjects, civil service preparation, commercial branches and telegraphy, in rooms at the Y.M.C.A. We have woodworking in the Central Military Convalescent Hospital; motor mechanics, machine shop practice and electrical work at the Central T'chnical School. There are also at the Technical School a few other students scattered around in other classes such as advertising, plumbing, printing, painting and decorating, etc. -Shoe repairing has been asked for, and is being started this week. In London we have wood carving, cabinet making, and general subjects at the Central Military Con- valescent H()si)ital; and machine shop practice, can^ciitry, show-card writinii, mechanical drawing and electrical work at the Technical and Arts School. In Hamil- ton we have elementary work, commercial subjects, and light shop work at the Victoria Military Convalescent Hospital; and machine shop practice, mechanical drawing, electrical work, and shop mathematics at the Technical and Art School. At Regina, we have woodworking and general subjects, gardening and poultry work at the St. Chads Military Convalescent Hospital. At the Sir Sanford Fleming Military Con- valescent Hospital in Ottawa, instruction is provided in commercial and general sub- jects, wood work and light metal working and motor mechanics is being arranged for. These classes have all been established in consequence of the instructions given at the meeting of the Commission a year ago. By the Chairman: Q. You might tell us at this point if all this vocational work is directly under the National Hospitals Commission or if it is under provincial supervision to any extent? — A. If I may go on, sir, it will come out in the next part. Q. Very well. — A. After these instructions were given me, and the members had approved of it in general, they suggested that I should confer with the Provincial Commissions and the leading educationists of each Province, and present a report ilealing with further aspects of the question of re-education. The preliminary work authorized did not consider re-education for new occupations, but for the improvement of the men during convalescence and it was to be offered them irrespective of whether or not they might later have to learn a new trade. Q. Do I understand then that where a, man is convalescent, if he is trained by you it is a Hospitals Commission matter, but if the man is well and has to be taught a vocation it is a provincial matter? — A. No, sir. Q. I want to get the line of demarkation between the jurisdiction of the Hospitals Commission and the jurisdiction of the Provincial authorities? — A. A meeting of the Commission was held in Ottawa on March 18. 1916. and the following is an extract from the minutes (reads) : — The Vocational Secretary submitted a statement of his visits to Montreal and Toronto and. arising out of these minutes, suggestions for a scheme of organization for the educational work of the Commission. As it appeared from the Vocational Secretary's remarks that there was a possibility of the question arising of provincial autonomy in matters of educa- tion it was resolved that the scheme be referred to a committee consisting of Mr. W. D. McPherson, Honourable J. S. McLennan and Honourable George A. Simard. with power to act. [Mr. T. B. Kidner.l 96 SPECIAL COM MUTEE—C.E.F.—RETURy ED SOLDIERS Q. Were these gentlemen all members of the Hospitals Commission? — A. Mr. Mc- Pherson was, as President of the Provincial Soldiers' Aid Association, an ex-officio member; the Honourable George A. Simard was also a member ex-officio as President of the Quebec Soldiers' Employment Commission. The Honourable Mr. McLennan was a member of the Commission. They were given power to act. Q. Just one (juestion for clarification: the Soldiers' Aid Association is not a part of the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. You will find in the bulletins that we have put in, Sir, that it is regarded as a Committee of the Plospitals Commission. Q. Is there a Soldiers' Aid Association iji each province^ — A. Yes, Sir, but under different names, unfortunately. Q. By whom is it appointed ? — A. By the provincial authorities. Q. And are they regarded as sub-agents of the Hospitals Commission? — A. I would prefer that answer should be given by Mr. Scammell. Following the appointment of this Committee a meeting of the Commission was held in Ottawa on April 29, when the following' action was taken. (Reads) : — The Secretary submitted a report which is attached hereto, which was drawn up as the result of a meeting in Montreal, held pursuant to a Resolution passed at the last meeting of the Commission, at which the Honourable J. S. McLen- nan, the Honourable Geo. A. Simard and the Vocational Secretary, were present. This report was adopted on a motion proposed by Mr. W. K. George and seconded by Mr. Lloyd Harris. The report submitted a memorandum which was published in Bulletin ISTo. 2, on pages 3 and 6, and recommended that it form the basis of the arrangements to be made between the Military Hospitals Commission and the provinces. MEMORANDUM. The facilities for training disabled soldiers referred to in this memorandum are intended to apply only to men whose disability, incurred on service, is such that they cannot follow their previous occupations, except that all men under- going treatment in any of the Military Convalescent Homes and Hospitals under the Commission may be given instruction in general subjects and elementary vocational training while they are inmates or out-patients of such Homes or Hospitals. In order to carry out such a scheme with efficiency and. economy, it would seem necessary to provide for : — 1. A Board or Boards competent to consider and determine who would be fit subjects for such training: 2. A body for each province which would have general advisory powers for the co-ordination of local efforts and for securing the co-oi>eration of training and educational institutions : 3. Vocational Officers who would be in immediate charge of the work in each locality. The following procedure is suggested: — 1. BOARD TO CONSrOER WHO WOULD BE FIT SUBJECTS FOR TRAINING. The Commission to arrange for a Board or Boards, as may be deemed neces- sary, each of three persons, to be termed a '' Disabled Soldiers' Training Board,"' in each place where it may be deemed necessary. The Board to consist of: — (a) A member of the Provincial Advisory Committee. (6) A Vocational Officer. (c) A medical man. [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AXD RE-EDOCATION 97 Note. — As the training of disabled men for new occupations is likely to involve a considerable sum of money for the support of men and their dependents (if any) and, in many cases for tuition, each case for training should be con- sidered individually on its merits. Duties of Board. (a) To consider all cases which, in the light of the medical reports, appear to be subjects for special training and to report upon each, with suitable recom- mendations, to the Military Hospitals Commission. (h) To consider from time to time reports of the progress of men under- going training and to make recommendation as to change of treatment, or of training, or its discontinuance. 2. PIJOVIXCIAI, ADVISORY COilMITTKE OF TRAINING. The Provincial Commission to be asked to nominate suitable persons in each province to act as an Advisory Committee on the training of disabled soldiers. The personnel of a Provincial Advisory Committee might include: — (a) Some person acquainted with the processes of education. (&) An agricultural educationist. (c) An employer. (d) A labour representative. Duties of a Provincial Advisory Committee on Training. (a) To prepare, with the assistance of the Vocational Officer, schemes of instruction in general subjects and elementary vocational training, in, or in connection with the Convalescent Homes or Hospitals of the Province, for the approval of the Military Hospitals Commission, which may then sanction the expenditure involved in any scheme, or suggest modifications, or otherwise, of the scheme. (h) To organize and carry out such schemes as may be approved by the Military Hospitals Commission. (c) To maintain a regular inspection, preferably through the Vocational Officer, of all instruction, being carried on under schemes approved by the ^lilitary Hospitals Commission. (d) To make a survey of the facilities at present, and from time to time, available for vocational training in (a) public educational institutions; (6) private educational institutions; and (c) private workshops, farms, etc. (e) To assist the Employment Commission by providing definite informa- tion as to the training received by men who desire assistance in obtaining employment. (/) To appoint or approve local sub-committees on training in connection with local Employment Committees in centres where it may appear to be neces- sary to have such a Committee. (fif) Generally, to advise and assist in the training of returned soldiers in every possible way. 3. OFKKKRS IN IMMKniATK CHARGE OF THE WORK IX EACH LOCALITY. The Military Hospitals Commission to appoint qualified persons, to be termed Vocational Officers, whose sphere of work may extend over one or more provinces; every such officier to be ex-officio a member of and to act as Executive Officer of the Advisory Committee on training in the province or provinces to which he may be assigned. 2S2TT— 7 [Mr. T. B. Kidner] 98 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Duties of a Vocational Officer. (a) To act in co-operation with the Advisory Committee on training of the province, or provinces, to which he may be assigned, as indicated in Section 2. (6) To make personal surveys, when necessary, of all cases where the man indicates his desire to be helped to obtain employment and to transmit sug- gestions on each case to the Provincial Employment Gommittee or its local sub-committee. (c) To act as a member of the local "Disabled Soldiers' Training Board" and to transmit its recommendations to the Military Hospitals Commission. (d) To arrange, through the Advisory Committee on Training or otherwise, for the placing in educational institutions, private workshops, farms, etc., of all men who have been passed for training by the Commission, and to maintain a regular inspection of all such men and report upon each case at stated intervals to the Commission. (e) To arrange for regular or occasional meetings of the local Disabled Soldiers' Training Board, as the circumstances may require. (/) Such other duties as may be assigned him by the Cammission from time to time. Local Vocational Officers to be associated with the Vocational Branch of the Commission through the Vocational Secretary. The Chairman : I think we had better have that filed in our record. The Witness : It is to be found at pages two and three in Bulletin 2, dated June, 1916. That sets forth a working scheme. Later, this memorandum was submitted to the authorities of the several Provinces, except Prince Edward Island. With the exception of Ontario, each of the Provinces agreed to accept it as a basis of agreement vfith the Military Hospitals Commission. The Province of Ontario did not accept the memorandum as a basis of agreement, and later on a special arrangement was entered into, by which the work of vocational training there was to be undertaken by the Soldiers' Aid Commission. By the Chairman: Q. Is that an incorporated body? — A. That is an incorporated body, and in their incorporation the Legislature of the Province gave them power to undertake vocational training, but the Military Hospitals Commission indicates the training which is to be provided. Q. Is that the Committee of which Hon. W. D. McPherson is Chairman I — A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Pardee: Q. And under whose supervision is that training? — A. Under the direct super- vision of the Soldiers' Aid Commission. The Hospitals' Commission, under an agree- ment of which a copy can be submitted, indicates the training which it desires to be given. Q. Wlio are the Soldiers' Aid Commission responsible to? — A. The Government of Ontario. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. And yet you give the directions? Is that right? — A. They are in a measure responsible to the Military Hospitals Commission. The Military Hospitals Commis- sion calls on the Soldiers' Aid Commission to provide the particular training. Not only that, but the Military Hospitals Commission has power to disagree with what is being done and to request the Soldiers' Aid Commission to carry it out differently. [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND liE-EDK'ATlON 99 By Mr. Middlehro: Q. That is by ayreemeiit i^ — A. By agreement. By the Chairman: Q. Who provides the financial resources necessary for the Ontario Soldiers' Aid Commission? — A. As far as regards vocational training, the Military Hospitals Com- mission, the Federal organization. The financing of their work of finding employment for disabled men, which was the original purpose for which they were appointed, is done from the provincial revenues. By Mr. Pardee: Q. But the funds for the actual vocational training are provided by the Federal Government, are they not? — ^A. Yes. Q. And are they handed over to the Soldiers' Aid Commission? — A. No. The Soldiers' Aid Commission submits monthly statements to the Military Hospitals Com- mission and they pay the bill. Q. But the funds come from the Federal Government I — A. Yes. Q. And the Soldiers' Aid Commission is responsible only to the Ontario Govern- ment? — A. It is responsible, T suppose, to the Hospitals Commission for the vocational training. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. That is by virtue of the agreement? — A. By virtue of the agreement. Q. And the basis, of that, I presume, is the providing of these funds ?^ — A. The Soldiers' Aid Commission may not even make expenditures on equipment until th?y have been approved by the Military Hospitals Commission. By the Chairman: Q. I was going to ask you, has the Hospitals Commission any oversight of ex- penditure? — A. Absolute oversight. Q. And has conti-ol of tlie expenditure made by the Soldiers' Aid Commission of Toronto? — A. Yes, as far as regards vocational training. The Military Hospitals Commission asked for the establishment of certain clasi>es and the engagement of the necessary teachers to teach a certain number of subjects. Q. And they carry out your recommendations ? — A. Yes. Q. Can you file with us a copy of that agreement? We will take it as one of the t xhibits? — A. Yes, sir. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Is that the agreement you referred to before? The one to be foxmd on page 3 of the Military Hospitals Commission Bulletin Xo. 3 ? — A. Xo, sir, Ontario did 7iot accept that as a basis, but the other provinces did. By Mr. Middlehro: (}■ The Ontario Soldiers" Aid Commission acts as the medium or agency for the expenditure of your money? — ^A. Yes, that is what it doss. Mr. MiDDLEBRO: And they only pay the cost of getting a man employment after yon are finished with him? By the Chairman: Q. The Soldiers' Aid Commission is doing one thing as an agent and another thing on their own private initiative. They act as your aaent in vocational training, 28277— 7i [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] 100 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS but when they secure employment for soldiers they bear the expense themselves? — A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Whatever expense is incurred in getting soldiers emi)loyment, they pay for it? — A. As in the other provinces, but they liave assumed the additional duty of looking after vocational training. Q. Is not the Province also tendering you the free use of certain Institutions? — A. All the provinces are doing that wherever they can. By the Chairman: Q. But the Province of Ontario is the only one with whom you have a special contract of the character referred to? — A. Yes, sir. Q. The others have accepted the agreement that is stated here (indicating M. H. C. Bulletin No. 2) ? — A. Yes, sir; on the lines of that memorandum. The Military Hospitals Commission is in direct control except that there are advisory Committees in connection w'ith the work in each province. Q. I d'o not mean that. What 1 mean is this, in every province there are two functions ; one of these, in Ontario, has been performed by agreement with you by the Commission created there by virtue of the po\\'ers of the Legislature; in the othei provinces it is done by the Local Boards, under your immediate supervision? — A. The first intention was, and that has not been departed from except in the case of Ontario, that the Provincial Commissions, by whatever name they are known, should under- take only to provide employment for men. As, however, the provision of employment might, later on, be closely related with the provision of vocational training, and because education is a provincial matter, it was thought advisable to ask in that memorandum- for an Advisory Committei?. That is the extent of the connection with the other provinces, namely: that they have an Advisory Committee to whom the ]\rilitary Hospitals Commission may apply for advice in carrying out their vocational training. Q. In the other provinces you carry on the work with Advisory Boards, having an advisory capacity, but in Ontario the Soldiers' Aid Commission acts really as the agent of your ]\Iilitary Hospitals Commission, and carries on the work, under your general supervision, and you pay the bills? — A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. You choose the teachers in the other provinces ? — A. Yes. Q. Undefr that agreement, is it the Ontario Commission that chooses the teachers for Ontario ? — A, Yes. Q. It chooses the vocational officers, the teachers in the schools? — A. Yes. Q. You do not do that in Ontario, but only in the -other provinces? — A. Yes. Q. Are those appointments subject to your approval? — A. Yes. The point, as T take it, was that the province was anxious to preserve beyond the shadow of a doubt its right to control education, so that we do not deal directly with any teacher in the province of Ontario, but, if a teacher was not satisfactory we could call the attention of the Soldiers' Aid Association to the fact, and he would be replaced. By the Chairman: Q When we re-assemble at 2.30 this afternoon, will you please put in a list giving the proper name of each of these Soldiers' Aid Associations in the various provinces? — A. They are on the bulletin. Sir, of June, No. 2. [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDlCATfOy 1C'. (i. Now, IMr. Kicbier, will you please go on with your statement? — A. The next step tiiken, Sir, was to appoint Vocational Officers. The vocational officers were ap- pointed Q. By whom? — A. By the Military Hospitals Commission, one for Quebec and the Maa-itime Provinces, in the person of Mr. F. II. Sexton, Principal of the Halifax Tech- nical College, and Director of Technical Education for the Province of Nova Scotia, who was allowed through the courtesy of the Nova Scotia Government to devote three- fourths of his time to the work of the Military Hospitals Commission. He has charge of the vocational work from Quebec to the sea. In British Columbia, Mr. John Kyle, Provincial Organizer of Technical Education, gives one-third of liis time. Q. What is Mr. Kyle's residence?— A. Victoria, B.C. In Alberta, Dr. J. C. Miller, Director of Teclniical Education, Winnipeg, nominally gives one-third of his time, but resides at Calgary. That has been chanf?ed this week to two-thirds of his time. He is really giving practically all his time; the provinces have been exceptionally liberal about this matter, and also the municipalities. In Manitoba, Mr. W. J. Warters, Director of Technical Education, Winnipeg, nominally gives one-third of his time, but negotiations are in progress now whereby we shall get, we hope, the whole of his time. By Mr. 7?o.s,s (Middlesex) : Q. These are all under salary and ])aid by the Hospitals Commissimi? — A. Yes. In Saskatchewan, Mr. H. W. Hewitt, Director of Manual Arts, Saskatoon, was appointed for a portion of his time, but, from the middle of this month, will give the whole of his time. By ihe CJiainnan: Q. Are these officers regularly under your direction as general superintendent of their work?— A. Yes, they receive orders from the Commission through me. Q. And their stipend is paid by the Military Hospitals Commission ?— A. That is for such portion of their time as they are engaged by the Military Hospitals Com- mission work; I should like it to go on record, however, that though they are nominally engaged for part time they are practically giving their whole time to the work, with the concurrence of their provincial or municipal authorities by whom they are employed. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Are they under salary to both authorities, to the provincial or municipal authority, as the case may be, as well as to the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. No, sir. What has usually been done in each case is that the Province or Municipality pays for sufficient assistance to enable them to do the routine work of the office; we only pay a portion of their salary, and thei'e are scarcely any cases in which the men have more salary now than they were earning before, indeed as a matter of fact, some vocatioiml officers are out of pocket. I know that in Mr. Sexton's case, he is out of pocket, and there are others, I could name. By the Chairman: Q. Do your vocational officers select the instructoi's? — A. Yes, but their nomin- ations are submitted to us here before they are appointed, which means that their particular qualifications and <^xiiorioii(e are submitted for our approval just as any other official. By Mr. Ross (MidJlcscv) : Q. Except in Ontario? — A. Except in Ontario, sir. Tlu^c officers organized the work on the lines suggested at the February 1910 meeting of the Commission, and, in response to general requests, were directed also to organize wherever convenient, classes in gardening, iwultrywork, etc., also, in some centres, classes in motor mechanics and shoe-repairing, which were not referred to at that meeting. [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] .102 , . • "WEiJIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS In September an agi-eement was entered into with the Soldiers' Aid Commission to carry out similar work in Ontario and, on the 5th of October, an Order in Council, P.C. 2566, was obtained enabling the Military Hospitals Commission to reimburse the O. S. A. C. for any expense incurred by them in carrying out the agreement. Thd Ontario Soldiers' Aid Commission was requested to provide instruction in connection with the several convalescent hospitals in Ontario, according to a memorandum submitted. The Chairman : Please have that Order in Council filed in the record as an exhibit in connection with this evidence. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Is it in any of these bulletins? — A. No, I do not think so. (Eeads) Mr. W. W. Nichol was appointed by the Ontario Soldiers' Aid Commission to take charge of this work." By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Is he the vocational instructor? — A. He has charge of the vocational work that is being done in Ontario. Q. What is his official title? — A. He is called Vocational Officer. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. What is his previous experience? — A. He was a science teacher in the Ontario schools, and he was in charge of the evening Technical classes in Ottawa. OttaAva ha- developed quite a system of evening technical classes, and he was in charge of that work. By the Chair man : Q. Wliat is his address? — A. Toronto, sir. If I have made it clear about the general work that is being carried on in the hospitals for disciplinary, for therapeutic and, most important of all, for the improvement of the man to the greatest extent, I should like to go on with the matter of re-education, unless the Committee would like one or two examples of men who have been benefited by work during convalescence. ,Q. I think by way of clarification, I should be glad if you would repeat, with respect to disciplinary', therapeutic and general improvement, with an example, so to speak, of how those three kinds of training operate. Give us a sample of what you call disciplinary, therapeutic and general improvement cases ? — A. I did not mean disciplin- ary training, but for its disciplinary value. Q. What do you mean by the disciplinary value of your work ? — A. A year ago very vague ideas prevailed as to the treatment of soldiers in our convalescent hospitals. In many cases they were being spoiled by over-indulgence, in most luxurious surround- ings, with nothing to do but sit around and smoke cigarettes. In consequence, many of them, following out the old adage of idle hands finding 'mischief to do, got drunk and there were various disciplinary troubles, due largely, it was considered, to the lack of occupation, ^^^len I speak of the disciplinary value of the work, I mean its value in helping in that way by giving the men something to do. Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Keeping thoni out of niischiof. By the Chairman: Q. It is your first function to keep them employed in order that they may be kept sweet and happy? — A. Arising out of keeping them employed, you get the therapeutic value. The therapeutic value of having something to occupy their minds and to greater or less extent their bodily faculties is now generally recognized, and it has been found that medical men who have experience of this work have asked for it because of its value on the health and contentment of the men, whose subsequent recovery is considerably helped by the occupational work. [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 103 Q. It would strengthen and harden their bodies, I suppose?^— A. That is looked after in the system of physical training. But the mere fact of having something to occupy their minds prevents them becoming " hospitalized," as it is termed. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Have you derived any concrete benefit from this occupational training? I mean have they been able to make anything in these homes that you have been able to sell or derive profit from? — A. Yes. Perhaps I should say that by the direction of Sir James Lougheed we prepared a little exiliibit for this Committee, which is in the office of the Military Hospitals Commission, and it was the intention of Sir James Lougheed to invite the Committee to come down and see it. It is arranged for your examination and I should be very glad if this Committee could go down this afternoon and see some samples of what has been done. The CnAiR>rAX : We prefer to get your evidence and that of Mr. Scammell before ■we go down. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. The exhibit will only show, Mr. Kidner, what can be done in the way of pro- ducing things, but my question was rather whether you had made any use of that training or derived any revenue from it? — A. As far as .the Government is con- cerned, no. Q. But as regards the men? — A. Yes. Q. They get for their own profit whatever may be realized out of the things they make? — A. Yes, sir. As far as possible each man who exerts himself and makes things which are of value and which can be sold is given a proportion of the proceeds. The material is paid for and a little is deducted for overhead expenses. The book- keeping is done by the men themselves, under the instructor, and they are given the benefit of their work. Q. Will you tell ns what kinds of articles are made by the men? — A. In the Grey Nuns Convalescent Hospital we have a class of men who are engaged in making metal work souvenirs from cartridges picked up behind the lines in France. We procured about a ton of these through the Militia Department, and the men are making little souvenirs, such as shoe-horns, buttonhooks and manicure tools out of these cartridges which have been brought back from the front. There is a ready sale for these. They have undertaken an order for 100 bed tables for the hospital. These tables are to put over a man's knees. They have had a lot of orders for such things as tabourets, picture frames and brackets and many other articles which can be made out of wood. But your question can be best answered by seeing the exhibit, sir. Hon. Mr. Bf.lcourt: But we want to have the information on the record, too. By Mr. Middlchro: Q. Is this exhibit the result of the education or of what has been done for its therapeutic value? — A. Made incidentally in the hospitals. It. is expected that the results of re-education will be in the men themselves. Q. And in the products too, I suppose. Senator Belcourt was asking you if the articles made during the time they were under therapeutic treatment were of any practical value. What I want to know is whether these exhibits are the result of that 'Work or the result of re-education ? — A. There are some men who start their re-educa- tion as soon as they enter the convalescent hospital. Theoretically, and actually, in the French and Belgian hospitals, a man starts his re-education as soon as he comes out of the ether. Here we start wherever our organization has a class and we have the facilities. A man's re-education often starts during his convalescence. For instance, if a man is to have a six months' convalescent treatment, and if it is quite clear that at the end of the six months, because of the loss of his foot, or because of some other disability, ho will not be able to return to his former occupation, we do not wait until fMr. T. B. Kidner.] 104 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED f^OLDIERS he is discharged to commence his re-education. Quite often this work is going on from the two points of view. That is why we want a wide range of subjects taught in eacli hosjiital. A man may start even while in bed to brush up his arithmetic and English. By Hon. 31 1: Bvlcourt: Q. I have seen soldiers in English homes making baskets and things of that kind right in bed? — A. We do that in the case of tuberculosis patients. Witness retired. Committee adjourned until 2.30 p.m. The Committee resumed at 2.35 p.m. The examination of Mr. T. B. Kidner resumed: By the Chairman: Q. Before adjournment at the luncheon hour you had been telling us about the schools you have at Convalescent Plomes? — A., I think, Sir, you would be interested to know what we are doing for the men suffering from tuberculosis in the sanatoria. Q. I remember when you touched upon the Lavirentide Institution your saying that you would like to speak aBout that ? — A. That is a subject I want to take up. At the request of the Medical Superintendent, and with his assistance, the needs of tuberculous patients were investigated, and work has been commenced in several of the sanatoria. At the Laurentide Inn, St. Agathe, Que., a simple workshop has been equipped, where light work in wood and metal is undertaken, sufficient machinery being installed to prevent the work putting any strain on the pectoral muscles of the men. Typewriting, shorthand and commercial work have been introduced, and work in motor mechanics is also being arranged for. Q. In order to train chauffeurs? — A. Yes, and to train attendants and repairers. At the Laurentian Sanatorium, also at St. Agathe, there are a number of soldier patients; some of whom have done beautiful work in embroidery, etc, while still in bed, under the instruction of the matron. As soon as the weather permits, outdoor work is to be undertaken; also work for the men who are porch cases. Roughly, the men in the sanatoria are divided into three classes: First, those who are in bed, with a temperature; second, those who are called generally "porch cases", and are allowed to get up and walk to the dining room for their meals, but for the rest of the day recline in chairs in the fresh air. As soon as the weather permits a great range of work is ready for these men. It has been too cold during the last two months, as they had to keep their hands covered up. They will take up weaving, basketry, draw- ing, writing, etc. The third class of men are those who are able to walk about occa- sionally. They commence with 15 minutes exercise in the morning and 15 minutes exercise in the afternoon, generally a gentle walk. These men are soon able to under- take some shop work, but while it is not in my province as vocational officer, I may say there is a good deal of discussion amongst tuberculosis specialists at present a9 to how far this work should go. There are two schools of specialists, so I am told, and some of them believe that absolute rest and stuffing is not quite the best method - to pursue, and that it certainly does produce a man who is very averse to work after a very long period of idleness. The work that is being undertaken will, we hope, not only counteract that tendency but will help in the men's recovery. Light wood-work and metal-work, drafting and commercial subjects are undertaken by the patients at the two mstitutions named, and similar things are being done at Lake Edward, Que. and at the Dalton Sanatorium, Prince Edward Island. At present, it is the intention that at each of the sanitoria where the Commission has men, provision shall [Mr. T. B. Kidner 1 RECEPTION, TREATMEST AND RE-EDUCATION 105 be made for this work. Yesterday arranf,^ements were concluded to put it into the* Tranquille Sanatorium at Kamloops, B.C. That is a provincial institution %vhere we have some 30 odd men, and a joint arrangement has been made between the Com- mission and the sanatorium authorities whereby shop work and general subjects arc- to be taught there. Classes are also being carried on at the sanatorium operated by the Commission at Frank, Alta. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Can you tell us how many cases are of an incipient nature and how many are in an advanced stage of tuberculosis? — A. No. These figures could probably be fur- nished by the medical officers of the Commission. Q. They would be in the possession of the Commission, would they not? — A. I think so. Q. Doctor Thompson could tell us, I' suppose? — A. Doubtless he could. Nov/ as to instruction in the sanatoria, what happens is this : we pick out the best instructors we can find for the work and they are sent to the Institution and operate wholly under the direction of the doctor. As to how much a man may do, as to when he may work and the kind of work he may undertake — these are matters for the medical specialist in charge of the Institution. Q. I have another object in asking the question, and it is this: It wouH be import- ant to ascertain the care with which these men were examined at the time they left for active service, because advanced cases now would mean that the victims were pretty well infected before they went overseas. Perhaps you could get the figures for us as to incipient, advanced and incurable eases. — A. I think the medical superin- tendent would be able to furnish tluit information and I will make a note of it for his attention. By the Chairman: Q. Have you accommodtition enough at the present time for the vocational train- ing of all men that appear to require it in Canada? — A. No, sir. Building are being erected now at the Mowat Sanitorium, Kingst6n, with the other new buildings, for the accommodation of the men. We are short of accommodation in \Vinnii>eg at present, but in order to remedy that deficiency the old Agricultural College has been tiikcn over. In Montreal we have a school on the ground floor of the Grey Nun^ Hospital, and last week arrangements were concluded with the authorities of the ilontreal Technical School, whereby they will turn over a portion of their building to the Commission, and it is being equipped. The McGill University authorities have also generously offered to place certain of its rooms and etiuipmcnt at the disposal of the Commission. Q. Will the men live and sleep in the Montreal Technical School? — A. No, they have to go from one building to the other. The suggestion has been made that the Commission procure a large motor bus and take the men to and fro, but this matter is now being worked out. The ideal condition, if we had it, would be to have all the methods of treatment of the men in the same Institution, so that the men could go from the vocational classes to medical treatment, etc., inside the walls of the Institu- tion. Q. The Grey Nuns Building is in the western end of Montreal and the Technical School in the eastern end. The two buildings must be from two to three miles apart? —A. I think not quite so far as that, Sir. The Drummond Street Convalescent Hospital is several blocks east from the Grey Nuns Building, and most of the men taking voca- tional classes will be in the Drummond Street institution. By Brigadier-General Mason : Q. I supix)se, Mr. Kidner, in selecting a place for the treatment of these men there are various questions taken into consideration? — A. That is entirely a medical matter, I do not come into that until the Institution is there, and I have been asked to provide work for the patients. [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] 106 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. The point I have in mind is to ascertain whether accommodation is being supplied to meet the needs to your satisfaction always keeping in mind the possibility that there may be an increase in the number of men requiring accommodation; I would like to know whether you are at present able to take care of all cases requiring vocational training? — A. You are speaking now of cases during convalescence? Q. Yes, are you able to provide for all your needs? — A. In most of the districts, yes. In other districts the great number of men who came in during the last few months of 1916 rendered it very difficult, and we have not overtaken that. Q. You have not overtaken your prospective probable needs. Do you believe with the plans you have at present in view, if they can be carried into effect, you will be able to take care of the additional strain that the additional number of men requiring train- ing will make uix)n your organization?^ — ^A. Yes-. In Winnipeg we shall have in the old Agricultural College twenty rooms in one building, so I am informed. I have not seen it, but I have seen the plans. In Saskatoon, we are taking over the large new' Y.M.C.A. building which will give us a great deal of accommodation. In Calgary an extension is being made to the Eed Cross Hospital at Ogden and we are also using the Provincial School of Technology. Xt Kesthaven in British Columbia, which I did not mention in my list this morning, as it has been opened since this list w^as prepared two or three weeks ago, a considerable number is provided for. Q. I suppose your accommodation is being increased to accommodate the men as fast as you are taking them in ?— A. Not for the last few months. Q. You have not reached your maximum load yet? — A. No, sir. Next fall there will likely be an increase. Usually many weeks elapse between the time a man is wounded and his arrival in a convalescent hospital in Canada. I have seen men who have had from six to eight, and sometimes twelve months hospital treatment in England before they came out, but they are coming out sooner now^ than they were formerly. Q. Do you feel satisfied that you can secure all the accommodation and the staff" necessary for the training of the probable increased number of men ? — A. I think there is no doubt about the accommodation. Sir, that is a mere matter of dollars and cents, but for the staff I think we shall begin at once, as soon as we have our larger institu- tions, to develop a staff for the new places. Q. To what extent do you think you can take selected men from these returned soldiers who have been in your institutions and make instructors of them, so as to create a staff out of your own material? — A. I think wherever a man has a chance at all of becoming an efficient instructor we should take him in other branches of the Commission's work. Preference is given to returned men and in a number of cases we are, at present, using them as instructors. At Lake Edward we are making exi^eri- ments with the object of obtaining the whole instruction staff from among the men. We found there a graduate of the Guelph Agricultural College, a graduate of a Tecli- nical School, and a graduate of a business college, and we are using those men there and giving them a little extra for instructing their fellows. In the instruction of tubercular patients it is most desirable to get men who have passed through the insti- tutions themselves. We had engaged a man last week Avho refused to fulfil his agree- ment when he found we wanted to send him to a sanatorium. We must develop instructors from among our own men as far as possible to overcome that difficulty. Q. In your own schools, or outside? — A. As far as possible in our owui institutions. Q. Supposing you want a technical man, would you think it proper to take a man from some American Institute? — A. I do not think we shall have to do that, because if we did we should have to train him in the methods of our own particular problem. We could get a technical man, but he would have to be instructed how to deal with these men. The instructor is in many cases playing the role of a man who as it were is not an officer in the usual sense. The men are often moody, and a patient knowing that it is an instructor he is talking to will often tell his personal troubles and be [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDDCATION 107 helped materially. It is not an easy business at all to deal with these patients. Side by side with the College graduate, you will have a man who is learning to write his own name. The composition of the Canadian Expeditionary Force is such that you have that kind of thing to contend with. To give an instance of the way in which we hope to train our instructors, I may say that at the first tuberculosis sanatorium where work was introduced, Ste. Agathe, Que., we have three instructors. One of them, after spending three months there as an assistant, has been selected to take charge of classes in another institution. We arc replacing him with a young man who will, if he proves efficient take charge elsewhere later on. These were men who were refused fur overseas service, thcj* are not soldiers. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Are the patients who are teaching paid extra allowances? — A. Yes the men who are acting as instructors at Lake Edward are receiving $15 per month, and at other places they are receiving 50 cents per day, that is extra to their pay and allow- ances. ' I By Mr. Sutherland: ?: ^i{ Q. Can you tell us what proportion of the men in the Hospitals have seen active service, and what proportion of them have been rejected here, or have gone overseas, without going to the front? — A. The secretary can tell you that, he is here, and I have not that information. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Have you a statement showing the different vocations that men are being trained for? — 'A. The new vocation, sir? Q. Yes? — A. Yes, roughly. • Q. I would like to get a statement showing the number in each business, such as manufacturing, agriculture, and clerical v.ork? — A. I could submit that, I haven't it here to-day, but I can prepare it. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Do you plan to provide technical education in agriculture? — A. Our plans pro- vide for that. Q. Have you started that branch of your work? — A. Yes, there are several cases of re-education along that line in the province of Alberta, where the men are attend- ing one of the Provincial Schools of Agriculture, and in Saskatchewan wc have men attending the Provincial rTniversity course in Agriculture. By the Chairman : Q. And their expenses are paid by you? — A. Yes. I am coming to that shortly. Before I leave the question of vocational training in the Convalescent Hospitals, I should like to submit figures showing the number of men who since the inception of the scheme, have received training. This is giving the number of individuals, not founting the number by classes, if we did that we should have two and a half to three times the numbers that T shall quote, because a great many of the men are taking up four or five subjects, this is the total obtained by counting "noses". In Quebec 538, the Maritime Provinces 141, Ontario 348. ^Manitoba 105, Saskatchewan 101, Alberta 122, British Columbia 148, and there came in yesterday the numbers from Lake Edward. Que., where 47 T.B. patients are receiving training. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Have these men completed their training? — A. Yes. Q. Or are they at present midergoing training? — A. They are those who have gone through the classes from the opening of the work until the end of January, to the advancement of the man as much as these other employments? — A. Yes, sir. [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] 108 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.-nETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. And liave been discharged? — A. Yos, this statement is up to tW end of January, and is taken from our latest monthly returns. These arc the men who have l>een admitted to classes in convalescent hospitals. By Mr. Pardee: Q. And have gone through and are out? — A. Some of them may still be there. These were taken from our monthly returns up to the end of January. The Chairman: The total is about 1,500 men. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. Is that all kinds of patients or T. B. patients? — A. For our T. B. patients, ihe first school was only opened in November last nt Ste. Agathe. By the Chairman: Q. What proportion is this of the entire number that have been accommodated in hospitals? I think the figure of 4,000 men has been given as having been accom- modated in hospitals ? — A. That is a difficult thing to state in proportion. These numbers have been cumulative. We know how many we have handled but it would be rather difficult to find how many we have handled since these classes were started. 1 could not give it correctly offliand. We know how many men have passed through the hands of the Commission roughly. Q. How many have passed through the hands of the Commission? — A. About 12,000, sir. Then there were some who returned before the Commission was in operation; I am not counting those, but only the number as far as I can gather it from our returns. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Have these 12,000 been in your convalescent hospitals? — A. Xot necessarily. By the Chairman: Q. They have passed through the hands of the Hospitals Commission? — A. Some- times we have merely passed them on to their homes or to the Provincial Commissions to find employment. Q. How many have you in hospitals at the present time? — A. The Secretary has the weekly return for the last week. I cannot give you tliat figure. The Chairman: You might explain why Quebec seems to have trained more men than any of the other provinces? By Hon. Mr. Murphy :' Q. You mentioned a moment ago that forty-seven or forty-eight names came in later from Lake Edward. Are they to be added to the 538 from Quebec? — A. Yes, Sir. Those Lake Edward men are not all Quebec men. By the Chairman: Q. Why is it that the figures for Quebec are so much in excess of those in any other province? — A. Quebec started earlier. The first vocational officer was appointed in the person of Mr. F. H. Sexton for Quebec and the Maritime Provinces. A beginning had earlier been made in Calgary and we commenced shortly after in the (jther western provinces, but we had smaller numbers to go on. At the time we commenced our largest unit hospital was in Montreal, and we liad the other Homes in Montreal to draw on. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. To what extent have you made use of the institutions in Montreal for that purpose, and what are the institutions whicli you have so used? — A. We borrowed instructors at first from the Provincial Polytechnic School; that was the extent, [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] RECEPTION', TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 109 but arrangements have just been concluded whereby McGill University will give us the use of its workshops and drafting rooms for so many days per week without cost. The Provincial Polytechnic School will give us a certain portion of the building and the use of certain rooms which are cciuipped with machinery for instructing in certain subjects, but no instructors, and the Commission bears the cost of any alter- ations which may be needed in the building and pays the salaries of the instructors. In McGill we i>ay the cost of instructors and for the material which may be used. By the ■Chairman: Q. When we visit Montreal, Mr. Sexton will bo able to tell us about this work? — A. Yes, Sir. By Mr. Pardee: Q. You may be coming to it, but you have not mentioned what is being done for the blind? — A. I can do that now. With regard to the blind, fortunately there are very few blinded Canadian soldiers. So far as our present returns go, there are not more than twenty up to the present time. We had no institution in Canada which was at all comparable with St. Dunstan's Hospital, Regents Park, London, and early last year the Commission requested the Canadian Medical authorities in England to retain the few blinded men in London for training at this institution which has been planned for blinded soldiers and sailors. We have had a few blinded men back. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. Is St. Dunstan's Sir Arthur Pearson's establishment? — A. Yes. There are at present two or three blinded men under the care of the Commission in Canada. There are one or two more who may become blind, and we have commenced their training on the assumption that they will become blind. Some others have been returned after training at St. Dunstan's, and have gonp back into civilian life. By the Chairman: Q. Are you training any of the blinded men in massage < — A. Y'"es, that is one of the best things. One of our blinded men went to Halifax last week and is to be trained for that work. Q. You have no blind soldiers at present w^ho have been trained for massage? — A. Yes, I believe there is one in Winnipeg. He was trained in England and the authorities over there wrote out to see if we could find work for him, and we iuformed them that there was a good opening in Winnipeg. Mr. Scammell tells me, just now, that he has not come back, as he is being employed on the other side. By Mr. Pardee : Q. What other employment besides massage are you teaching the blind, type- writing? — A. Typewriting and J3raille writing. The latest authorities on the training of the blind are against training them for some of the occupations wliich. have been so much in evidence, such as broom making and basket making. The blind basketmaker can never become a very high priced workman. Broom making is another "blind alley occupation " if one could so six;ak. It is an occupation that does not take a man very far; and the best authorities on the training of the blind are suggesting massage, salesmanship and small lines of business. Salesmanship especially has proven a good field of work. Q. What do you mean by that ? — A. A man becomes an agent for some specialty t'lir instance. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Would that not necessitate his moving around from place to idace '. — A. Yes, sir. Q. Is there not a disadvantage in that? — A. A blindo*! man gets the full disability pension plus an allowance for an attendant as one who is totally disabled, and he is [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] 110 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS helped of course, by the additional fact that people will regard him sympathetically and a great many will deal with him. Q. I was speaking with particular reference to his occupation and not to his remuneration. It is harder for a blind man to get employment where he has to go from place to place? — A. That is why it was suggested that men be trained to take charge of a small business. Bij Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. You regard the attitude of the public towards him as a vahiable asset? — A. Undoubtedly, if he is not trading on it, and is doing his best to help himself. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. You do not favour broom making and basket making because they do not tend to the advancement of the man as much as these other employments ? — A. Yes, sir. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. That would apply almost equally to any line of manufacture? — A. Yes. Q. If that is so in the case of brooms it would apply also in the case of boot- making? They cannot compete in those occupations with a sighted man? — A. Quite so. They cannot compete with the sighted man. We have been helped very much by the Canadian Free Library for the Blind in Toronto. It is providing literature, free of cost, to any blinded man whose name is sent to them. When a blinded man comes home from England his name is sent to the Canadian Free Library for the Blind, and they provide him with literature free of cost. They have a large library and they have also advised quite often on the training of the blind. By the Chairman: Q. Such services as telephone operator and telegraph operator are open to such men?- — A. Yes. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. I understand that 12,000 returned soldiers passed through the hands of the Commission? — A. Those were my own figures, taken from the returns. Q. Many of them were not detained by the Commission? — A. They may be Class 1 or Class 3 men. Information as to that class was given yesterday. Q. All the returned soldiers who are injured pass through the hands of the Com- mission? — A. Yes, they are helped to get employment by the Provincial Commissions, whether or not they are sick when they are returned. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. How far back can you trace any number of cases who have had a complete vocational training and have gone out into the world ? — A. I think there are very few such cases. It was not until the 29th of June last that the Commission was able to go ahead with re-education, because until then the question of a man's maintenance during the period of re-education was not settled, neither was the question settled of whether or not his pension would be adversely affected if he increased his earning capacity. Our re-education really did not commence until then, although we had a few isolated cases where the Commission assumed they were going to get the needed power and went ahead with the training. Q. So that it is altogether too soon to estimate the result of your vocational train- ing outside. You keep in touch with these men, do you not? — A. Yes. Q. I mean that you follow them up after they have left you ?— A. There is not a very good follow-up system, because when a man has been finished wnth, as far as his training is concerned, the Provincial Commission looks after his employment and takes care of him. As to how far the provincial authorities are following up these men, I am not able to say. [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] RECEPTIOX, TREATMENT AND liE-EDLOATION HI Q. You will later on be in a position to know. It is part of your duty to ascertain what are the beneficial results of your system, is it not? — A. Yes. Q. Just now it may be too soon to estimate results? — A. Well, I have the parti- culars of two or three men who have been re-educateer day, for, seven days in the week. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Where is he located ?— A. On the C.P.R. at Shepherd, in Alberta. Ilohnt's says in regard to this line of work, that it would be very hard for any one over 25 years of age to learn it, and unless lie had some idea of railroad work he would have to study for some time, and very hard too. In this, my own opinion is that if a man is on the wrong side of 30 it would be almost impossible to teach him an occupation de novo. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. That man's earnings are as good, if not better than they were prior to his •'ulistment? — A. In addition, he has his pension for the loss of his arm. Q. His pay is about as large as it was before enlistment, if not larger? — ^A. The pay of locomotive firemen in the West varies a great deal. They are paid by the run. Hon. Mr. McCurdy : A locomotive fireman, working 12 hours a day for 7 days in the week would get pretty good pay. Mr. Pardke: No locomotive fireman could rema-iu on duty for such a protracted period. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. At any rate, the man in question receives a minimum pay of $105 per month. How large a pension would he get? — A. With his left arm off at the shoulder, for pension purposes he would be in the second class. The Chairman: $24 a month would be his pension. Hon. Mr. McCurdy : So that his stipend would be $130 per month, including his pension. The WiTNKSs: I can give you the case of another man. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Are these cases you are selecting the most successful cases you have had? — A. We have had very few. Q. Are they outstanding cases or average cases? — A. We have not been able to get particulars of very many. We have the particulars only of a dozen or so and I am picking out a few examples. Q. But are these few average examples or selected gases? — A. I will gdve you all I have. We have not a great many as yet. Q. But are the men you refer to average cases or successful cases? — A. We have not completed the re-education of a dozen men as yet. TMr. T. B. Kidner.] 112 SPECIAL COM MITTKE-^C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Perhaps we shall be able to have a history of every one of those twelve cases? — A. In six months' time we shall be (iiblc to give particulars of many cases. By the Chairman: Q. Will you put on the record a brief synopsis of the twelve cases you have re- educated? — A. We have not completed the re-education of twelve cases at tlie public expense, outside of what has been done in the Convalescent Hospitals, but I have some interesting- cases of men who have benefited and been able to take up new occupations from work that they have done during convalescence. I should like to submit one or two oases. I have already mentioned one case. The second one I shall mention is. that of a man who was for several months in the Grey Nuns Hospital, Montreal. He makes this statement in writing: (Reads). " Despite my thirty years of experience as la mechandc, I can state, Mr. Chartier (the writer's instructor), that through your instruction and assistance my efficiency and earning power were considerably increased. The fact is that at the outbreak of the wair, when I enlisted, I was earning about $3 a day at my trade; at present, and since I was discharged from military service, I am, technicially, a better man all round; I am now able to hold the job as Foreman in a machine shop at more than twice the salary I was get- ting before. This benefit to me is greatly due to your practical information, and my only regret is that I was unable, after my discharge, to continue in- struction with you as you had advised." By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Bear in mind that he is openating under different conditions now to what obtained in 1914. If he is working in a Munition Factory he is doing work for which very high wages are being paid at present. — A. Quite ^o. 'Hon. Mr. McCurdy: If he is making a comparison with the conditions which existed in 1914, that comparison is apt to be misleading. The general run of wages in that class of employment is double and treble what it was in 1914. By the Chairman: Q. What is the character of the disability for which the pension was awarded in that case? — A. It is not given, but he was discharged into Class III, so he is up for pension now. He made this statement , and I asked Mr. Sexton to get it from him In writing. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. Then your experience is that a very small proportion of them require to be re- educated. — A. Yes. Q. Do you know what proportion? — A. I could not give it exactly yet. Q. Would it be 5 per cent? — A. 5 per cent of what, Sir, the total number? Q. The total number. — A. The total number of wounded I could not give that now. In France it has been foimd that less than one half of one per cent of the total wounded required re-education, but I cannot give an answer for Canada at the present time, that is of those who will not be able to return to their previous occupations. These French figures were given after nearly two years of experience of casualties. Of course we do not deal with the total number of wounded, and if you take the propor- tion of men we have to deal with in Canada, it will be considerably higher than that. Q. Is the training you are giving them here equal to that given in England? — A. I could not answer that. Q. You would not like to express an opinion? — A. No. [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] RECEPTIOy, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 113 By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. It is better, is it not? — A. I will say this, that Canada was the first of the war- ring nations to plan this definitely; France has done a tremendous amount and is doing it splendidly; but about a year ago there were over 50 different agencies in France engaged in this work. In England, at the present time, it is being done in many ways by various societies, I have before me at the present time the report of what the Society of Electrical Engineers are doing over there, I can put that in if you like, showing the difficulties with which they have had to contend. The report refers par- ticularly to the maintenance of a man vmdergoing re-education which is provided for under the powers of the Commission. ' By the Chairman: Q. You provide also for their families, while they are under instruction ? — A. Yes. I will deal more fully with that in the question of re-education. By Hon. Mr. Bclcourt: Q. Will that table which you are going to prepare show the number of men who are willing to go into agriculture? — A. I could not give you that, as it could only be obtained by taking a census of the men, but I can give you the particulars of every man who has been specially examined with a view to deciding his future vocation. By the Chairman: Q. You can give us a table showing us the result o± die examinations you have made with regard to the desires of the men for vocational training? — A. Yes, up to date, sir. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Are the men claiming that they are not going back to the land, that that was not the class of employment they desired ? In your talk with all these returned^ soldiers have you found there are many objecting to going back to farming ? — A. Yes. Q. And what is the proportion? — A. By actual count of the first 340 or 350 men who returned, to one province, 6 wanted to go on the land. By the Chairman: Q. Is that the province of Ontario? — A. No, sir, the province of Alberta. By Mr. Boss: Q. Had these men been farmers before they entered the service? — A. No, sir — there were some cases of men who were farmers before who wanted to go into the cities. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Are we to conclude that none of those of this number who were willing to go on the farm had been farming? — A. No, I would not say that because if the man was a farmer and he is going back to the farm nothing would be said to him, but of the number of men who were asked what they wanted to do, if they wanted to go into any special trade or occupation out of 340 odd, only 6 expressed their desire to take up farming. I could not tell you how many of that number had been farming before. Q. Can you tell us how many men had been farming before and were going back to the farm? Is there any way of telling that?— A. No, if the records had been taken very closely it could have been told, so far as all the men who went through the hospitals are concerned. Q. Can you make an effort to ascertain hciv many men have gone back to farming who were farming prior to their enlistment? (No answer.) 2S277— 8 [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] 114 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F. -RETURNED SOLDIERS Bfi Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Would it not be possible to have that information recorded from this time on? Have you any information along the line of showing the number of men who were formerly on the land, and who are now applying for re-education on other lines, or wishing to keep store or something of that kind? — A. I can get you that, sir. Hon. Mr. Belcourt: If we can get that information I think it will answer my question. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. You could not say with regard to the six men you have referred to, whether they had been on the land or not? — A. No, sir. Q. Can you find that out? — A. Yes. But the tendency of men who had been living together in a large aggregation seems to be to direct them towards the cities and not towards the land, so far as I have been able to find out in talking with them. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Do you endeavour to induce them to follow agricultural pursuits, do you try to change their point of viev.-? — A. Yes, that is one of the reasons that wherever there has been accommodation, that is the necessary ground for the purpose, the Commission has established courses in outdoor work, gardening, poultry-work, and so forth, as in the four Western Provinces, where there was ample ground near the large Con- valescent Hospitals. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. What do you think of this statement in the article by Dr. Bourillon ou page 83 of the Special Bulletin issued by your Commission in April last (reads) : " There are, above all, peasants who evince a most ardent desire to return to the former scenes of their labours, and what is very interesting and worthy of being encouraged, many of the invalided who were formerly workmen in towns, manifest the same keen desire for the comitry, as in their distress they appreciate more the sweetness and the economic advantage of a rural life." Your experience is six men desiring to return to the land out of 346? — A. Dr. Bourillon refers to the French peasant, not to the men of the Canadian Expeditionary Force. Q, But he says " many of the invalided who were formerly workmen in towns, manifest the same keen desire for the country." The Chairman : That refers to France, not to Canada. The Witness : It is not our experience to date. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. Ours is absolutely the reverse of that? — A. Absolutely the reverse. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Of those 346 cases that you have spoken of have you asked them directly if they want to go back on the land? — A. That was asked by the secretary of the Provin- cial Commission, or by the official who interviews each man at the Discharge Depot, Quebec. The Secretary of the Provincial Commission gave me these figures. We were endeavouring from the very first to find these particulars — the first fifty that came back and entered our convalescent hospital in Calgary I personally examined, and out of the fifty only one man wanted to go on the land. Q. Did they express an extreme aversion to going back on the land? — A. No, some of them would go on the land if they had a nice farm in a warm valley, and had a couple of thousand dollars, some livestock and a few other qualifications like that. [Mr. T. B. Kidner.l I RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 115 By Hon Mr. Murphy: Q. Of those fifty men do you know how many had been on the land before the war?— A. Yes, sir. Q. How many? — A. Three or four. By the Chairman: Q. As a matter of fact the earlier enlistments, those in the first contingent, con- tained few men who came from the country. They were almost entirely from the cities. The first wounded men returned, being city men, preferred to remain in the cities? — A. Yes. By Mr. Belcourt: Q. What proportion of these men had only recently come to Canada before enlisting. Can you tell that? — A. No, sir. We can tell you in connection with their re-education, because that is a question we ask, the date they came to Canada. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Would you kindly repeat that? — A. One of the things we consider in making the survey of a man who is candidate for re-education is the date on which he came to Canada. If he came out at ten years of age and received his education here, we regard him as a Canadian. If he came when he was eighteen, we do not regard him as a Canadian for purposes of vocational counsel because he has had his education in the Old Country. I will submit our forms for the information of the Committee. • By Hon. Mr. MeCurdy: Q. What is your explanation as to their preference for the city? — A. They form gregarious habits. Q. What effect has tlio excitement they have gone through had on their inclina- tions? (No answer.) The CiiAiRMAX : I do not think, gentlemen, that the first returns from overseas are of any great value, because the first contingent consisted of 80 per cent of English- men, and was recruited almost entirely in the cities. These are mainly the men who have come back so far. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Can you say who were included in the 346 cases? — A. They were practically all first contingent men. The figures were obtained a year ago, ^fr. Ross (Middlesex) : Are you quite sure these meij came from the cities? The Chairman : The men at Valcartier mostly came from the cities. 'Mt. Ross (Middlesex) : I thought they were mainly from the ranches in the West. The Chairman: The first contingent was almost entirely made up of city men. Hon. Mr. Mirphy : Of course, we have no evidence of that. Mr. ^[IDDLEBRO: The Chairman is probably speaking from his knowledge of the I'atriotic Fund. Hon. 'Mr. Belcourt: Probably most of thorn had but recently come to Canada and were mainly from cities on the other side. The Chairman: The point I am making is that we would bo wholly at fault if we regarded the statistics of the returned men from the first contingent as liable to be maintained in successive contingents. The first contingent contained very few Cana- dians, and very few came from the country. The subsequent contingents were made up largely of Canadian born, esspecially when we got to raising rural battalions. The figures of the men coming back now are much more likely to be representative. You inn draw no conclusions from the first fifty wounded men who came back. 2S27V— 8i [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] 1 16 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Mr. MiDDLLBUO: One conclusion we can draw is that men who have lived in the cities and who have followed industrial life before they enlisted, do not prefer to farm. Rrigadier Gen. Mason : I had occasion to go into that matter, Mr. Chairman, and when I made up a return in March last over 63 per cent of enlistments were what we call British born. That would bear out your reasoning. Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Up to what date is that return? Brigadier Gen. Mason : Up to about the 1st of ]\[arch. By the Chairman: Q. You might proceed, Mr. Kidncr. — A. On pp. 2 and 3 of Bulletin Xo. 3 there is a statement as to vocational training. I should like to submit that, sir, as it deals with several points of importance. {See Exhibit No. 1, Appendix 2.) First the pensions Order in Council is dealt with, and Section 9 is quoted as follows : — No deduction shall be made from the amount awarded to any pensioner owing to his having undertaken work or perfected himself in some form of industry. Until that was settled it was not possible to approach the men successfully. I beg to submit this printed notice (prodiicing poster) as having been issued to- be placed in all hospitals, discharge depots and other places where soldiers are likely to see it. This notice is as follows (reads) : Canadian Expeditionary Force. Pensions and Industry. The Order in Council establishing the pension system declares, in Clause 9 : " No deduction shall be made from the amount awarded to any psnsioner owing to his having undertaken work or perfected himself in some form of industry." The amount of a man's pension is decided simply by the extent of the incapacity he has incurred by doing his duty as a soldier. B^'y Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. What occasion arose that made it advisable to print and distribute this card containing Sec. 9 of the Order-in- Council establishing the pensions system? — A. Our vocational officers and instructors reported that, as in France and Great Britain, a great many of the men in hospitals were averse to undertake training because they thought it might affect the amount of their pensions. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. The French Government has also adopted a similar ruling to ours, have they not? — A. The matter, I understand, is under consideration. By the Chairman: Q. That notice card has been put in the record. Have you any explanations to give in connection with that? — A. I tliink it is well to amplify a little the procedure which is adopted to determine the eligibility of a man for re-education. I shall submit some forms directly, sir, but I will explain them briefly beforehand. When it appears from a man's medical record and his physical condition that it is possible or likely that he will not be able to return to his former occupation, a survey is made of him by a Vocational Coun.=ellor, or Vocational Officer. This officer is a man who under- stands the kind of training which is necessary for iiarticular vocations and the kind [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-ED i CATION 117 of training that is available in schools; also whether it can be given in special insti- tutions or whether it must be obtained under commercial conditions — in short, a voca- tional education expert. By the Chairman: Q. You have such in each province, have you? — A. Yes, sir. The Survey Form "A", as it is termed, contains the usual particulars of the man's name and address, his regimental number, and so forth, his age last birthday, his birthplace, and if born abroad, the date he came to Canada; his religion, the nationality of his father and his mother, and the occupation of his father. The occupation of the father is often significant with men from the older countries where they follow the father's trade. Quite often a man will tell you if you ask him where he learned his trade: "I picked it up running around with my father". Next, the form deals with the man's element- ary schooling — where obtained, the kind of school and how many years, the age on leaving, his Grade or Standard on leaving, and the reason for his leaving school. It is of great significance when a man tells you he left school when he was thirteen or fourteen to know why he left. Sometimes he will tell you there was no higher school, or tlmt he could not afford to go on. Another man will say : "I had to go to work, I wanted to earn money". The form next deals with his subsequent education, and I might give you the different heads: High, or Secondary School; trade or technical school; business college; College or University; evening classes; Correspondence School and otherwise. Next, the man's industrial history is dealt with ; trade, or prin- cipal occupation, how long followed; whether learned by apprenticeship or otherwise, and the average wages. Then his other work. The answers to these questions arc most interesting and often show tliat our young men have not had the right kind of education to enable them to earn their living under the prevailing conditions. Some of them have drifted about in from eight or nine widely different occupations in the course of four or five years. Then the man is asked this question : "What occupation do you prefer for the future?" He is asked to give his first choice and second choice and to state the reasons for his choice. Next he is asked : "If a course of instruction were provided for you would you be willing to follow it earnestly and faithfully?" Then hg says " Yes," and signs his name. That form is filled out as thoroughly as possible when the man arrives at the Institution or depot of the Unit to which he is sent after his arrival in Canada. By the Chairman: Q. That is done while the men are in a Convalescent Home?— A. Yes. We also had this object in view, that there were a number of men who had passed through our hands and are residing in small towns. The local Secretary of the Patriotic Fund, or the Red Cross Society, or the Soldiers' Aid Commission, may report to us. " There is a man here who thinks he wants re-education." Well, we get him to sign this state- ment as a preliminary. The man is then examined by a Vocational Counseller, one of the specialists of whom I spoke. The Vocational Counsellor's sheet contains the identification particulars and a brief statement of the apparent disability, not in strictly medical terms, but from the layman's point of view. Then the personal char- acteristics, as obtained by questions, are set forth, such as his recreations, his hobbies, his favourite reading, his habits — whether he is a drinker or a smoker, his appearance and manner, and his general intelligence. Then from records and inquiries, his conduct on service, his conduct in the Convalescent Home, andi by reference from employers. There is also placed on the sheet a record of his training during convalescence. Then the Vocational Counseller sets down the vocations for which the man's ability and aptitude arc evident. Particulars of the man's educa- tional and industrial history and of his personal characteristics are obtained in an interview which often takes three or four different approaches to the man before the Vocational Counsellor can get inside his guard. He has been before Boards of [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] 118 SPEOIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED 80LDIERS Medical and Military officers until he is sick of tliem, and he is a little difficult to get at sometimes. But the Vocational Officer must penetrate the man's guard to get at his wishes and feelings. Then the Vocational Officer, with his Ifnowledge of condi- tions, the means uf training the man, the man's possibilities and the suhsequent chan- ces of employment, records liis preference for a future vocation and gives the reasons for his preference, the method of training recommended, and an estimate of the cost of training the man and of supporting his dependents. Next the Medical man comes in. A medical man is especially detailed to make an examinatioia of the candidate for re-education, not with a view to his disability but with a view to his remaining ability. A number of questions are set down, some in the form in which they are set down for similar examination jiurposos in insiirance. First of all, an extract from the record of the last Medical Board, stating where it was held and when, the nature of the disability, the nature of the wound or affection from which disability resulted, the date and place of origin, and the medical officers who made the examination. The special Medical Officer has that information before him. He then examines the man as to his present condition: Complications present (if any), treatment, results, if movement is impaired, degree remaining; if an amputation has been performed, he states its nature; length of stump; character of stump; power of stump; usefulness of stump. Is an artificial appliance required. Has it been ordered. Has it been received. Extent of disability (stated in percentage) height, weight, girth, chest. Then questions as to his mentality. His present mental condition, whether it is alert or sluggish. His general intellectual capacity — whether sub-normal, normal or hyper- normal. Then he states the precautions which, in his opinion as a medical officer, should be observed in the choice of occupation. The three sheets -which I have enumerated (and now beg to hand in for insertion in the record) are submitted to a Board which is described in what I have submitted in Bulletin No. 3 as " A Disabled 'Soldiers' Training Board.'' M H. C, Form 13. MILITAKY HOSPITALS COMMISSION. VOCATIOX \h Bli.WCII. Survey Form A. M. H. C. File No Name Local File No Address (present) " (home) Regt. No..^ Rank Regt Btt'n., C.E.F.. Age (last birthday) Birthplace If born abroad, date came to Canada Religion. . . Nationality of father of mother Occupation of father. EDrCATIONAL IIISTORV. Elementary ScJiooling. Where obtained Kind of School Years. (If in more than one place or country, give time, etc., in each.) Age on leaving Grade or Standard on leaving Reason for leaving * (Needed to earn money; preferred to go to' work ; no higher school available, etc.) Subsequent Education. a. High or Secondary School. Place Name of School Course takeia Years Grade on leaving . , ... [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 119 h. Trade or Technical School. Place Name of School Course taken Years Was course completed c. Business College Place . Name of College Course taken Years Was course completed d. College or University Place Name of College Course taken Years Was course completed e. Evening cltistes Place Name of School Course talvcn Years Was course completed /. Correspondence School Place Name of School Course taken Was course eompleted [f not, how much was completed Reason for not completing course g. Private study (give suhjects) h. Any other Education INDUSTRIAL IIISTORV, Trade or principal occupation Plow long followed. If learned by apprenticeship, or how Average wages . . . . Otlior work a How long followed. h / " " (Note. — Tf "clerk," " warehousemaTi," "labourer" or other general term, state specific branch.) What occupation do you prefer for the future {(i) l.^t choice (&) 2nd choice Give reasons for choice If a course of instruction and training wore provided for you would you be willing to follow it earnestly and faithfully. Date 10... Witness Siiiuature. Vocational Officers sliould keep a copy of this on fyle. ]\[. n. C. Form 14. .MIJATAUY' HObiiTAL.^ C0:\[MISS10N. V'X'ATIi'N' M. HkAXC.JI. Survey Form B. ^1. IL C. File No Name Local File No Disability PliRSDNAT, (II VR.VCTlUils'lirS : (n) Obtained hy Questions: Pecreations Hobbies Favourite Reading "• Habits, as Drinking Smoking [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] 120 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS (&) From Ohservaiion : Appearance Manner General intelligence (c) From Records and Inquiries: Conduct on service Conduct in Conv. Home. Kef erences from employers , . . . . Training during convalescence Vocations for which ability and aptitude are evident. Vocation Officer's preference Keasons for V. O.'s preference Method of Training recommended Eeraarks ESTIMATED COST OF TRAINING (PER MONTll) Tuition Books and supplies Material. . . . Estimated period Total cost Estimated earnings Dep ndents Name. Age. Where— if employed. Wages. State of health. Wife Children 1 2 3 4 5 *> Other dependent.s. Vocational Officer. For M. H. C. Office use. Amount of pension (monthly) Pay and allowance (monthly) — Man '" " " Dependents .... Estimated total cost, training, pay and allowance. Accountant, M. II. C. Vocational Officers should keep a copy of this on fih [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATIOX 121 M. H. C. Form 33. :\[ILTTARY HOSPITALS COMJ^aSSlOX. Vocational Braxcti. progress kkport on man" undkugoixg re-trainixg. Month ending 19 ... . ... M. II. C. file No Nnnic Local file No Addirss PI.ACK01' TRAIMXG, TL>\vn or city Name of institution . Name of Workshop 1. Theoretical subjecls 2. Workshop Practice 3. Medical (if required) 4. Conduct 5. Remarks Place Date 19. Province Vocational officer. Note. — The sujects being studiccLund the craft being practised (1 and 2) should l>o stated and the progress rated as " Kxeollent," '" Good," " Fair," or " Poor." If man is undergoing any medical ^troalnient, particulars of progres.s for No. H should be obtained from medical officer. M. H. C. Form 32. :\riLITARY HOSPITALS CO^MMISSION. VOfATIOXAI, BrAXCH. Hirvcy Form C. M. II. 0. File No. . . Local File No. Surname. Christian Name. Regt. No Rank Batt'n, C.E.F *Extract from last Medical Board held at on 10, 1. Nature of disability 2. Nature of wound or aifection from which disability resulted 3. Date of origin. 4. Place of origin Members of Board .... ; ^REPORT OF SPECIAL JIEDICAL OFriCER OX PRESENT COXDITIOX OF MAX- Physical Condition: 5. Complications present (if any) 0. Treatment 7. Results S. If movement is impaired, degree remaining. [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] 122 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS 9. If an amputation has been performed, state its nature 10. Lcngtli of stump 11. Character of stump 12. Power of stump 13. Usefulness of stump 14. Is an artificial appliance required 15. Has it been ordered 16. Has it been received 17. Extent of disability (^^tated in percentagef) 15. Hcij^ht 19. Weight 20. Girth, chest Mentality : 21. Present mental condition (Alert, sluggish, etc.) 22. General intellectual capacity (Sub-normal, normal or hyper-normal.) General : 23. Precautions which, in opinion of medical officer, should be observed in choice of occupation. "Remarhs: ,19. . . . Sicrnatiire. "RECOMMENDATIONS OF DISABLED SOf.DlERS TRAINING BOARD. Place Vocational Officer. Date Medical Member. Member of Local Advisory Board. ""If space insufficient continue on liack. j 100 per cent. 80 per cent, 60 per cent, 40 per cent, 20 per cent, or imder 20 per cent. By the Chairman : Q. Is there one Board in each province or is the Board located at Ottawa?— -A. There are several of them. They may be constituted wherever they are required. Q. Are they permanent or temporary? — A. In the larger centres there is a per- manent Board. In the out-lying centres they may be brought together and appointed from time to time, just as the Army Medical Corps may appoint a Board to sit in an out-lying place. A Disabled Soldiers Training Board consists of the District Vocational Officer, a Special Medical Officer appointed for the duty, and a layman nominated by the Advisory Committee of the Provincial Commission, to which reference was made before luncheon. That- man represents the local, unofficial part of the work, and is usually chosen for his knowledge of labour and employment con- ditions. Those three men examine the applicant. If possible each of them see him. but two must have made a personal examination of the man. The Disabled Soldiers Training Board then forward.'^ its recommendations to Ottawa. Those recommend- ations are gone through carefully, from the medical point of view especially. The ^ledical Superintendent, or his officer, goes through them and discusses the case witlt the Vocational Branch and then if the recommendation is approved the District Vocational Officer is notified and the man is at once entered upon His course of training. As soon as his military discharge takes place, he goes under the Order-in- Council, P.O. 1472, which is the Order-in-Council und'er which the Military Hospitals Commission maintains the man and his dcpendeiits during his re-education and for one month after his re-education is completed. Q. How long is the re-education expected to take ordinarily? — A. It varies from tln-ee months to two years, but the longest course yet granted has been one year. [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 123 Q. During that time the cost of maintenance of the man and his family are all borne by the Commission? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you any idea of what the average cost is? — A. Not yet, sir. Q. It represents, I understand, $1,000? — A. In the case of some married men it will certainly be $1,000, but it is too soon yet for averages. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Upon what basis is it placed? — A. Upon the scale given in the Order in Council which was very largely based on the experience of the Patriotic Fund. By the Chairman: Q. I think that would be a very good thing to put in on the record, the Order in Council P.C. 1472, giving the policy of the Commission for the maintenance of the man who is taking this re-education course ? — A. These payments are stated so that the man before he enters upon his training course may know exactly what he is going to receive per month. Q. The chief object is to provide for the man and his family comfortably during his period of training? — A. It is impossible to talk to a man about entering upon a course of training unless he can be assured that he and his family are to be provided for during the progress of that course. By Mr. Boss: Q. He gets his soldier's pay, and his wife gets the Patriotic Fund and separation allowance? — A. No, sir, he is a discharged man, and he gets no pay and allowances from the Militia Department. Q. I understand that he gets paid to some amount? The Chaiumax: He gets the full pension and the wife gets a separation allowance, I think? — A. Xo, sir, he is a discharged man, and he gets a pension. Q. He gets the full pension of $40 a month? — A. Yes. Q. And there is a certain amount for each child and a certain amount for his wife?— A. Yes. Q. And in the meantime the Patriotic Fund helps him out a little if necessary ? — A. The Order in Council is so worded that a wife having no children gets $35 per month, less her husband's pension, but the man himself gets $8 per month pocket money^ and a subsistence allowance of GO cents a day, or if he prefers to live in one of our institutions he gets board, maintenance and laundry. By Mr. Middlebro : Q. I thought it was 75 cents per day for subsistence? — A. That is in a Military Service not during re-education. From several districts, statements have !been received to the effect that the 60 cents per day is not sufficient and it will probably have t'^ be raised to $1 as the cost of living is increasing so. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. It sometimes happens that the recommendation of a local board is not accepted? — A. Yes, occasionally it is sent back to ask if they have any further remarks, but usually it is done on medical grounds, and the remarks of the medical superintendent or specialist to whom the case is submitted are transmitted to the Local Board for their further remarks. Last week a case came in, in which the medical man stated that no precautions need be observed in this man's choice of occupation, that he could work at anything, but, in the other part of that report it stated that this man could not walk very much. The report was sent back and the doctor stated that he meant to say the man could undertake any occupation that did not involve walking. [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] 124 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: ,Q. You take great precaution that these cases which are to be re-educated are pro- mising prospects for re-education? — A. Yes. Q. Have you had any disciplinings amongst these re-education cases to the extent of having to let these cases out? — A. Yes, we have had three cases. Q. Three cases out of how many? — A. There are about 150 cases; at present we have one or two we have had to let go for misbehaviour, and we have one or two who have refused the re-education that is provided for them, preferring to go to work. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: ' ' Q. Three or four out of how many? — A. 192 cases hg^ve been surveyed up to last week. Q. How many gave it up after commencing? — A. We have had two or three who gave it up. Q. I understand those two or tliree refused to begin at all? — A. jSTo, sir, two re- fused to begin, and two or three have given up. Q. That will bring it up to five out of 192?— A. Something like that. After a man has been started upon this course of re-education, he is reported upon each month. If we discover after one month or two months that a mistake has been made the man is allowed to change to another kind of training provided there is reason for it. Q. The five you have mentioned did not give up for the purpose of taking another course, but they gave up altogether? — A. Oh, yes. If a man changes from one. occupa- tion to another that is not counted as giving up, for instance, we had a man with his leg tlisarticulated at the hip, who during his treatment at the Convalescent Hospital became immensely interested in poultry work, and he was entered for that course, but after two months he found it was impossible for him to get about. There is really no effective artificial limb made for that particular amputation, from which he is suffer- ing, and he has gone over to the commercial side, and is taking a course in commercial work. The monthly report on each case undergoing re-education is sent in by the Vocational Officer, and is called the "Progress Report of man undergoing re-training." It gives the place of training, the name of the Institution, and the name of the work- shop and gives the progress which the man has made and also any medical remarks should a man require medical attention during his re-education. The Commission has decided that though these men are discharged soldiers, they are wards of the state while undergoing re-education, and they are given medical attention by the Commission if they require it. We have several cases where the men have thrown themselves so vigor- ously into their course of training that they have broken down and have had to take a rest for a few days. Q. Is that medical attention given outside? — A. The particular cases we have had to deal with are men who have been living in hospitals or attending hospital classes. There was no trouble about their treatment, as there was a medical man there every day. I should like to submit these forms, sir. (Survey Forms A, B and C, and Monthly Report. See pp. 118-121.) The CH.\iR>fAN: They will be incorporated in the record. 'ilic Witness : Next, it may be of interest to state where these men are receiving their training. In the first place, .certain occupations can be taught with the simple equipment that we put into the hospitals for the occupational work, the improvement work, offered during convalescence. For instance, the difference between a class room for instruction in general subjects, in which a man can brush up his ordinary educa- tion, and the school in which commercial training could be given, is only the buying of a little more equipment, such as typewriters, adding machines, filing apparatus, [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 125 etc., and tlie provision of a skilled teacher. The addition of some simple appliances to a metal working shop will give us a very good motor repair shop. ^Motor mechanics, especially in the West, is a subject in great demand, not only for automobile work, but for work on gasolene engines, tractors, internal combustion engines, and other similar apparatus. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. We will shortly add flying machines to that. — A. Yes, sir. Then, at the Inter- provincial Conference, which was held in Ottawa in October, 191.5, at the invitation of the Prime ]\[inistcr, it was understood that the provinces would place at the disposal of the Hospitals Commission any of their institutions. The municipalities in most cases have agreed to do so also. The idea is that as long as the inclusion of disabled soldiers to be trained does not involve the addition of equipment or an increase of the staff, no charge will be made, but wherever more equipment or special instructors- are rc(iuired the Military Hospitals Commission bears the cost. By the Chairman: Q. I understand that the only men who are eligible for this training or retraining are men who have passed through the hospitals? — A. Not necessarily. Q. Can a perfectly fit man come back from the front and have the advantage of this training if he wants it? — A. No, sir. ^ Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Perfectly fit men do not come back. The WiTNKSs: That has never been the intention. By the Chairman: Q. You do not contemplate, when the war is over, and fit men come b^ck, to extend to them the same opportunities? — A. We have no authority for it. Q. It is purely for the man who is disabled? — A. Yes, sir, "except that we have interpreted very broadly the training that we are giving during convalescence. We are making that daily more directly useful to a man. At first the main idea was that it would provide them with occupation and have considerable therapeutic value. Q. Is the man, for example, who falls sick with rheumatism in England, and is invalided back, eligible for all these benefits ? — A. Yes, if he is disabled from following his previous occupation. By lion. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Is that the line of demarkation ? — A. That is for re-education, sir. Q. Take the case of the man suffering from enteric fever, but who recovers his health. Is he eligible for vocational training? — A. If the medical authorities say that he could not return to his previous occui>ation because of some weakness left by that disease, he would be eligible for the training. Q. His ability might be improved by undergoing educational treatment in the hospital. In that ease would he not be given it? — A. Yes, during his convalescence. The question was asked, I understood, about re-education after discharge. Special re-education after discharge is at present only given to those men whose disability as a result of service would prevent them following their old occupation efficiontly. Mr. Mtddlebro: This is the wording of the order in council (reads): — That a Commission be appointed to deal with the provision of hospital accommodation and Military Convalescent Homes in Canada, for Officers, Non- commissioned Officers, and Men of the Canadian Expeditionary Force who return invalided from the front, and for Officers, Non-Commissioned Officers and Men invalided, while on active service in Canada, Bermuda, or elsewhere. The qiialifioation seems to be that they shall be " invalided.'' [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] 126 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— G.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Has the Commission anything to do with men who return when the war is over, wlio are not wounded, but sound men ? — A. I do not know, sir. Brigadier-General Mason : Because Bulletin No. 1 says (reads) : — " Later, it was decided by the Prime Minister that the powers of the Com- mission should be extended to cover the matter of the vocational re-education of those who through their disability might be unable to follow their previous occupations; also that the necessary machinery, in the form of Provincial Commissions and local committees, should be installed in order to provide employment, not only for disabled men, but, at the close of the war, for the able bodied as well. A revised order in council was therefore passed." Would that authority bring such men tnider the jurisdiction of the Commission? Mr. MiDDLEBRO : That is dealt with in Section 7 of the Order in Council. It says " for members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force on their return to Canada." Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : That is done through the sub-committees. The Chairman : That does not really come under Mr. I^^idner's line of work, Mr. Kidner having the vocational training end, and not dealing with the employment of thoroughly fit men. Brigadier-General Mason : I raised the point because it might come within the province of this Committee. The CtiAmMAN : It certainly will, but with other witnesses. By the Chairman: Q. Will you go on, Mr. Kidner ? — A. I should like to put in some extracts from a pamphlet (see Exhibit No. 2, Appendix 2), issued by the Institution of Electrical Engineers, Victoria Embankment, London, showing two or three points of difficulty that they are finding in England, and which I think it only fair to Canada to show what we have determined by our regulations here. I referred to them just now. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Could you state briefly what they are, Mr. Kidner? — A. First, there was the difficulty of obtaining candidates for admission. The pamphlet says: '' This has proved the greatest difficulty which the Committee has had to face. The most obvious source from which applications should have been obtained, namely, the Military Hospitals was found to be of no practical use." Q. For admission to what — A. Ee-education course. (Reads) : " The stumbling- block was the fear, widely prevalent amongst convalescent men. that any attempt to improve their earning capacity would injuriously affect the amount of their pension." Q. How did the Institution of Electrical Engineers come to issue this pamphlet? — A. Because all sorts of societies are going into this work in England, as the Govern- ment has not done it. It is being done by institutions of all kinds, such as the Lord Roberts Memorial Homes, the Red Cross and other societies. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Are you* speaking now of employment? — A. No, of re-education, sir. The Chairman: A multitude of agencies in England is undertaking re-educatio)i, whereas we are making it one state affair. By Mr. Middlehro: . . Q. In England I suppose these agencies are overlapping each other? — A. Yes, and Inefficiency results. The second difficulty found by the Institution of Electrical Engin- eers was the selection of candidates — the nature of the disablement should be con- [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 127 sidered, and so forth — and the other was the question of maintenance dviring training; it is only fair to state that the Commission has met all these points. I should like to mention another question which arises very often — it was men- tioned by Colonel Thompson yesterday — of men who have spent three or four months in our convalescent hospitals. For the first time in their lives they have had time to sit back and consider how much better they would have been with a little more education, and they have gone in for some course during convalescence and done well. Then the time comes when they are medically fit to return to civil life and they are dis- charged. They are civilians, and as such the Federal authorities have no more concern with them and they go out. A great many of these men would like to go on with the training course they had started and which they might conclude in two or three months irtore. It is perhaps a difficult matter to decide, but I should like this Committee to take ink) consideration whether or not we could devise some plan whereby these men who desire to continue their course could do so. To some extent the need is being already met by evening class work. Not all of our re-education cases are taking courses in the day time. We have over 30 men for whom instruction in the evening has been provided at the cost of the Commission. In Alberta there are two or three men who have lost arms, and they are being tuained as Sanitary Inspectors. The only cost to the public which this entails is the salary of the teacher, as the local authorities supply the building, and furnish light, heat, and the services of a janitor. Quite often, if we have to pay an instructor for one or two re-education cases like that, we admit a number of other men to the class. That is being done in several cases. But the ques- tion of continuing the man's training at the end of his period of convalescence, when his medical treatment is over, is of importance. Personally I should like to be able to say to certain men: " Yes, you may go on and complete your course.'' By the Chairman: Q. That would mean that the State would provide for them when they were phy- sically fit in order to increase their effioiency ? — A. For the sake of the country. By Hon. Mr. MoCurdy: Q. To what extent should that cost be met by the Federal authorities if the Pro- vincial Governments, who are responsible for the matter of education, perform their dutyl — A. I suppose theoretically the Provinces are responsible. In the case of your own province of Nova Scotia., Mr. McCurdy, an response to the question whether some arrangement could not be made in regard to vocational education after discharge, the reply was that the province was quite prepared to provide evening classy in any sub- ject for any of its population, especially soldiers. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Gratuitous instruction? — A. Yes, sir, without cost to them. Q. That applies generally? Not merely to soldiers? — A. They do that for the whole oC their population. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. The classes are not entirely free, are they? — A. In Nova Scotia fees are collect- ed, but thoy are returned when the attendance is regular. In that province any man who required further training after he had left the ha^pitals would be given it in the Provdncial Technical Schools, By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Free of charge, you say? — A. Free of charge. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Does that meet the difficulty? — A. Yes, it meets the difficulty in Nova Scotia. In Manitoba the Winnipeg Sch(X)l Board has also arranged to admit free to its even- [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] 128 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS ing classes any returned soldiers who may be nominated and recommended by the Dis- trict Vocational Officer. But there are provinces in which these facilities do not exist, and if these men can be rendered more valuable to the country I think it is a matter for serious consideration whether some means could not be devised to provide some special training for the soldiers after they are discharged. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Have you any recommendation to make? — A. No, sir. This big question of technical education is a matter for the Governments of the Provinces and of the Dom- inion. By the Chairman: Q. These men are physdeally restored, and therefore are able to earn their own livelihood in so fax as they will ever be able to do so? — A. Yes. Q. They draw a pension if their incapacity is considerable, therefore they have reached a self-supporting position? — A. I am not speaking of that type of man but of the discharged soldier, coming from the Convalescent Home, who gets all right again and goes back to civil life unimpaired in health. Q. He is physically all right?— A. , Yes. Q. He is physically able to support himself ? Is it not enough then to give him an even, steady opportunity? — A. It is not always possible for him to get that. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. Would not the fact that he has served his countiy and done active service give him as good a chance of securing employment. as the man who has not done so? — A. It is not a matter of securing employment but of increasing his efficiency by some spe- cial training. By the Chairman: Q. Let me use a concrete example: suj)pose a man said while in the hospital: "I would like to know both French and English, I could support myself very much better if I did." He takes his primary study in French and gets to be only fairly proficient when he becomes physically fit and is discharged. You would like to have some arrangements made whereby that man could complete his French study suffi- ciently to make it a useful, practical working agency for him? — A. Yes, sir, although I should not have chosen such an example, but something more in the way of pro- ductive work. Q. Yes, I know, but in Montreal a man who has a good knowledge of both languages can add 25 per cent to his salary? — A. This countrj- wants men who can do things with their hands and their heads. That is the kind of training I should rather have used as an example, although the principle of your illustration is quite right. Q. You feel that the man ought to be supported by the Government while he was perfecting himself in the su~bject he had only partially studied? — A. It is a most difficult matter to deal with. There are a number of cases which come up from time to time, where our vocational officers say : "I wish we could keep that man in hospital a Ifttle longer for the purpose of finishing his course." By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Keep him in hospital ? — A. I mean keep him in the classes. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. What is done in such a case as that, where the vocational officer makes such a request or statement as that? — A. There is nothing done because the medical officer reports for discharge, and he is discharged. We always give the man a chance to come to the class, but do not do anything else. I am bringing up this point, sir, because I may say as you go about the country this question will be raised as to whether or not we cannot do something for these men we discharge. [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] RECEPTIOX, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 129 By the Chairman: Q. The danger is that knowledge that the man is going to be kept as a re-educative until he acquires certain efficiency may operate to delay progress very materially on the part oi that man? — A. Yes. !May I si)eak of another important point? Senator McLennan this morning dealt with the value of the products which are obtained in the hospital workshops. We have not yet worked out to finality the system to be adopted. We have tried two or three ways in the Grey Nuns, Montreal, and in hospitals in other centres. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. You are speaking now of the disposal of the product of these workshops? — A. Yes. The men can sell all and more than they produce. Q. Is it sold at its real value, or at a sentimental value ? — A. I do not know. The difficulty is that if it is sold at a sentimental value some of the men might be induced to take up the production of these articles because of the sentimental price which they obtain for them, and try to make a living in that waj', which would in my opinion be very bad for them, because their market would depend upon the compassion of the publi(;, which will not last very loijg after the war is over. But, incidentally, I think that a man should be allowed to earn a little money during his convalescence, in the workshops or gardens — because it applies equally to the gardens as to the workshops. The fact that he can earn a little will often induce a man to busy himself, and he will thus obtain the other advantages arising from being busy rather than from sitting around doing nothing. In other ways we have encouraged them to do a little work, because of our belief in the therapeutic benefits which result from keeping them occupied. For instance, we wanted some appliances made for use in the hospitals, and the men undertook to make them. The cost of the material and a little for wear and tear, 10 per cent or so, was deducted, and the balance was divided among the men. Q. Are you able to make doors, chairs, drawers, and things of that kind that you use in your hospital^? — A. At Esquimalt, bedside tables were made at the shops by the men and a number of other small articles for use in the hospitals. At one or two points old motor cars which have been contributed, have been rebuilt and are being used by the men in going to and from the hospitals and the instruction shops. We are applying at present for some worn cars from the. Department of ^Militia, so that when we get them we can rebuild them and in this way find something for the men to do in motor mechanical construction. Q. How about the boots, caps and clothing that the men themselves wear iu- the hospitals^ Are they made by the men i? — A. The only class in tailoring that has been established up to the present was established in connection with those coloured ti'oops ^who were re-educated in the Clayton Hospital, Halifax. The work of boot and shoe repairing has been taken tip very successfully in several of the hospitals iu Montreal, Quebec and IIplifax,*and we are just starting this work in Winnipeg. We obtain from the Ordnance Branch of the Militia Department old, discarded boots; sometimes they are cut down in our workshops and made a size smaller. A great many men are interested in this work, and it is an occupation which is by no means overcrowded, and to which, if our people are going to learn thrift, a little more attention will be devoted in the future than it has received in the past. The statement was made in Montreal last week, that in the Maritime Provinces alone they could absorb two or three hundred shoe repairers. In fact statements have been made showing the possibility of their finding work all over the country. That is one of the occupations that can be taught t very little expense and in a very short time. ByHon.Mr.McCurdy: Q. A great many men are going in for market-gardening re-education, I under- >tand? — A. Yes, there are a few cases being re-educated in the West. We have not 28277—9 130 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS started down here yet in that work. These are things we are going to undertake at Whitby and Guelph, but unfortunately up to the present nearly all our hospitals have been in the cities where ground is not available for instructional work along tliese lines. Q. You say "unfortunately." What do you mean us to understand by that? — A. All the hospitals in the East are in that ix)sition except at Whitby, where there are 300 acres available, and at Guelph, where there are large grounds and the Provincial Agricultural College at a short distance affording excellent opportunities for agricul- tural work. Q. Could not some attempt be made to induce men who are going in for re-educa^ tion to take up that class of work ? — A. That point is before the Vocational Branch all the time, but, to the present, not a great many men have expressed a desire ia go into those classes. By the Chairman: Q. Do you not think that if steps were taken to make market gardening more attractive to the man by attractive surroundings you might induce more men to go into it? — A. Yes, and at Deer Lodge Convalescent Hospital in the suburbs of Win- nipeg, there are grounds, 7 or 8 acres in extent, and they are a model of their kind, where they raised last year in a very short season (the hospital was not opened until the end of June), $800 worth of products from the gardens and poultry houses. Flowers were also raised in large quantities for sale in the market, and altogether as far as possible there was a little model grange. Q. Are steps being taken to show the high prices at which these things can be sold and the good living that can be made at this work? — A. Yes, sir, By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. You have a case at Ogden where that is being done? — A. That is a piece of prairie that was given to the Commission out there and a garden was made under the auspices, and with the assistance of, the Provincial Department of Agriculture. I have referred in a statement put in to the fact that great assistance has been received from all the Departments of Education and the Departments of Agriculture, both Federal and Provincial. They will send their lecturers and demonstrators to any of the hospitals to help. The poultry houses have been planned by provincial officers so as to fit the local needs. The Chairman: If the Committee will consent we will release ]\[r. Kidner so that we will have time for one more witness to-day. ^^ By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. If you covifd get this information it would be very satisfactory to me. Could you give us in tabulated form an idea of what is being done to-day in Great Britain and France as compared with Canada for the returned or discharged soldiers in the way of pension, re-educatiou, vocational training, and so on? Could that be obtained and put in tabulated order? — A. No, sir, I should not like to undertake it. We have three reports on what is being done in France, and one is a fairly bulky volume, and if one attempted to go into what was being done in England it would need a Eoyal Commission. Q. Could not something of that sort be done, not by one man alone, but with assistance. After all it would be helpful for us to know? — A. We have a great deal of information on file. The Commission has been supplied, through the authorities in England and by the French authorities, with particulars of a great many things. There are dozens of documents on file. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. An inquiry addressed to the various governments would elicit the information. — A. There is to be a conference in Paris next month on the vocational re-education of [Mr. T. B. Kidner.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDCCATION 131 disabled men, which is being called, I understand, at the instance of the Belgian Government. An invitation has been received that Canada shall be represented there. I saw this morning the letter which was passed on to us from the Minister of Militia. Q. Could you write over there and ask the various governments to give this infor- mation to you ? — A. We have reports in the office which give great numbers of agencies which are dealing with the re-education of the soldier. Q. If an enquiry is directed to the French and English Governments you will get information as to the extent to which they have gone in these matters. By lion. Mr, Belcourt: Q. I think we are doing far more in Canada than they are doing on the other side, and if that is so it ought to be known. — A. I will endeavour to do that. I agree with you that so far as our official plans are concerned we are doing a great deal. But there is an enormous amount of work being done in France by various agencies. Hon. Mr. Belcourt: I mean, of course. Government agencies. By Mr. Middlehro : Q, Have you any suggestion to make to this Committee with a view to improving, or in any way making, the Military Hospitals Commission more efficient than it is at the present time? Are there any additional powers desired? — A. Of course, technical education men are always looking after their own end of the game. I wish that we could interpret very liberally the powers given by the Order in Council for the re- education of the men. There are often cases in which from a medical standpoint a man can go back to his previous occupation, but there is a borderland of cases, which, strictly speaking, we should do nothing for under our powers. I should like to have some power by which we could deal with a large number of citizens who could be made better producers, and therefore better citizens if we could give them some re-education, and with whom, because they do not fall strictly within the present regulations, the Conmiission in strict fulfilment of its powers has nothing to do, perhaps. Q. Apart from that, have you any other suggestions as to internal management or regulation, the constitution of medical boards, or any improvements that you think of? — A. As far as the relations of the medical officers and my branch are concerned they have been perfectly satisfactory. There has been here and in England some diffi- culty in finding what they had in France — a sufficient supply of doctors who were well enough acquainted with industrial processes and industrial disabilities and abilities. France has an advantage over the other countries in the respect that she had before thie war institutions where men maimed in civil life were retrained. We had nothing of the kind. Q. Do you suggest that we should have some expert of that kind to help in deter- mining vocational work? — A. It is working out that in each district a special medical officer is being detailed for that work, and ho is soon discovering what is needed. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Are you speaking now, Mr. Kidner, of the fields not covered, which is really outside of the proper provincial purview? — A. Oh, yes, this is not provincial. With regard to those men of whom I was speaking a moment ago Q. Yuu mentioned an analogy in France between those maimed in civilian life and those being re-educated. That does not come under federal jurisdiction? — A. The lX)int I desired to make was that France had some experience to go on. Q. Under our system they would properly be un By the Chairman : Q. Where are your two colleagues domiciled?— A. Col. Labatt's home is in Hamil- ton, Ontario. Major Todd's home in the past has been in British Columbia, but of late he has been doing work at MoGill. In civil life he is known as Doctor Todd. He is a medical man and has done overseas service. He has been carrying out at McGill special duties of a medical nature and also research work. Q. Then Major Todd's home is in Montreal?— A. He has been located in that city for some time. Q. For the benefit of the members of the Committee please state briefly the modus operandi followed when a soldier becomes an applicant for a i)cnsion? — A. I might state first that we are working, as you are doubtless aware, under Order in Council (P.C. 1334). Q. To which amendments have since been made? — A. Yes. I will now hand in a document which contains the provisions of tlie Order in Council referred to and most of the amendments thereof since made. 15()ARD OF PENSION COMMISSIONERS FOR CANADA. PENSION REGULATIONS. As amended to December 12, 1916. 1. There shall be a Commission to be known as the Board of Pension Commis- sioners for Canada, consisting of three members appointed by the Governor in Council [Lieut. J. K. L. Ross.] 134 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS (hereinafter called the Commission). Each Commissioner shall hold office during good behaviour for a period of ten years from the date of his appointment, but may be removed at any time by the Governor in Council, for cause, and a Commissioner, on the expiration of his term of office, shall be eligible for re-appointment. The Com- missioners may, from time to time, elect one of their members to be chairman of the Commission. 2. Subject to the regulations hereinafter set out, the Commission shall have exclusive jurisdiction and authority to consider and make all grants and payments of military and naval pensions, and of gratuities, allowances and assistance to persons wounded, injured or incapacitated in the military or naval service of Canada (here- inafter called members of the forces), or to their dependent relatives, and shall have exclusive jurisdiction and authority to deal with all matters pertaining to such l)ensions, gratuities, allowances and assistances. 3. The Commission shall have authority to engage such clerical and other assi- stance as they may consider requisite for the transaction of their duties, and at such salaries as may be approved by the Governor in Council. ' 4. In the administration of their powers by the Commission great care shall be taken to insure all applications being considered and determined with the utmost despatch. 5. There shall be no appeals from the decisions of the Commission, but every, applicant for a pension, gratuity, allowance or assistance may i^resent his or her case either personally or by counsel before the full Commission sitting for the purpose of hearing the complaints of those who may liave been dissatisfied with decisions given in the ordinary course of administration. 6. The pension or other grant awarded any member of the forces, or any dependent of such member, shall not be assigned, charged, attached, anticipated or commuted, nor shall any assignment, charge, attachment, anticipation or commutation be recog- nized in any way by the Commission or any officer or servant of the Crown. 7. All pensions awarded to members of the forces shall be determined by the disability of the applicant without reference to his occupation prior to enlistment. 8. Each case shall be subject to review at the end of a year from the time when the pension is first granted, except in those cases where the disability is obviously per- manent, and then there shall be no further review. 9. No deduction shall be made from the amount awarded to any pensioner owing to his having undertaken work or perfected himself in some form of industry. 10. The Commission shall make provision for the vocational training of those who are desirous of taking advantage of it, and for the supplying, from time to time, of artificial limbs and appliances to those who would thereby be benefited. 11. The Commission shall have power to entrust to a reputable person for admin- istration the pension or other grant to any pensioner or beneficiary when the Com- mission is satisfied that it is being improvidently expended by the pensioner or beneficiary, and the expense of such administration, if any, shall be borne by the Crown. 12. The following shall be the scale of pensions for total disability: — All ratings below Petty Officer (X>aval) [ $ 480 Rank and file (Mildtia) Chief Petty Officer and Petty Officer (Naval) Squad, Battery or Company Sgt-Major (Militia) .... Squad, Battery or Compa.ny Q. M. Sergeant (Militia) . . 510 Colour Sergeant (IMdlitia) ■ Staif Sergeant (Militria) Sergeants (Militia) [Laeut. J. K. L. Ross.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 135 Naval Cadet and Midshipman (Naval) ^ Kegimental Sgt.-Major not W. O. (Militia) [ $ 620 Master Gunner not W. 0. (Militia) Regimental Q. M, Sergeant (Militia) Warrant Officer (Naval and Militia) ' 6S0 Sub.-Lieutenant (Naval) / ^ Lieutenant (Militia) \ '^^ Lieutenant (Naval) | ^^ . Captain (Militia) j ^'^^ LieutenaJit Commander (Naval) } -, o^^ Major (Militia) j ' C^Jommander (Naval) ( -- g^^ Lieutenant- Colonel (Militia) \ ' Captain (Naval) ) , Colonel (Militia) \ ^'^^^ Commodore (Naval) | g ^^ Brigadier-General (Militia) j ' Flag Officers r^peeially considered. 13. Those who are entitled to be awarded pojisions shall be divided into six classes, and each member of eacli class shall.be awarded a pension in direct proportion to his partial or total disability, as follows : — Class 1.— Total disability, 100 per cent. For example — Loss of both eyes. Loss of both hands, or all fingers and thumbs. Incurable tuberculosis. Loss of both legs, at or above knee joint. Insanity. Permanent extreme leakage of valves of heart. Class 2. — Disability, 80 per cent and less than 100 per cent — pension 80 per cent of class 1. For example — Loss of one hand and one foot. Loss of both feet. Disarticulation of leg at hip. Class 3. — Disability, 60 per cent and less than SO per cent — pension, 60 per cent of class 1. For example — Loss of one hand. Loss of leg at or above knee. Loss of tongue. Loss of nose. Class i. — Disability, 40 per cent and less than GO per cent — pension, 40 per cent of class 1. / For example — Loss of one eye. Loss of one foot. Total deafness. Loss of two thumbs. Class 5. — Disability, 20 per cent and less than 40 per cent — pension, 20 per cent' of class 1. For example — Loss of one thumb. Anchylosis of elbow, knee, shoulder, wrist or ankle. Class 6. — Disability under 20 per cent, a gratuity not exceeding $100. For example — Total deafness in one ear. Partial deafness in both. Loss of index or other finger. [Lieut. J. K. T>. Ross.] 136 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS M. To tliOf-e up to and including the rank of Sub-Lieutenant (Naval) or Lieuten- ant (Militia) who are totally disabled and in addition are totally helpless so far as attending to their physical wants is concerned, a further allowance may be made cf an amount not exceeding $250 year, but such special allowance shall be subject to annual review. 15. Those, up to and including the rank of Sub-Lieutenant (Naval) and Lieutenant (Militia) who are disabled and are entitled to a pension in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd class shall be paid, in addition to the personal pension, a special allowance of $6 a month for each child; of the rank of Lieutenant (Naval) and Captain (Militia) $7 a month for each child: of the rank of Lieutenant Commander (Naval) and Major (Militia) $8 a month for each child; of the rank of Commander, Captain or Commodore (Naval) and Lieut.-Ccdonel, Colonel or Brigadier-General (Militia) $10 a month for each child. " Child " shall include a step-child and also a child in respect of whom the pensioner was in loco-pareniis but in either case only if the relation had been established before the pensioner's disability arose. 16. If a member of the forces has been killed, or has died as the result of injurii.'S received, or disease contracted or aggravated while on active service, the widow, until re-marriage, shall be entitled to the equivalent of the pension mentioned in Class 2, and also be entitled to drau' the allowance for children. On the re-marriage of the widow her pension iiinW cease, but she shall be entitled then to a gratuity of an amount equivalent to one year's pension. 17. If a member of the forces who has been killed, or had died, as the result of injuries received, or disease contracted or aggravated while on active service, was a widower, but leaves a child or children as defined in Kegulation 15, said child or children shall receive an allowance of $12 per month each. 18. In the event of an application being made for a pension on behalf of a woman who has, without being married to a member of the forces, lived with him as his wife, or on behalf of the child or children of any such man or woman, the Commission shall be authorized to grant the customary pension and allowance for a wife or for a child or children, on being satisfied that the circumstances were such as to warrant the con- clusion that the woman had at the time of enlistment and for a reasonable time pre- viously thereto, publicly been represented as the wife of said member, or if the Com- mission is satisfied that justice would be done by the recognition of such woman, for the purpose of a pension, as the wife of such member. On the marriage of the woman her pension shall cease but she shall be entitled to a gratuity of an amount equivalent to one year's pension. 19. No allowance shall be paid to or in respect of any child, if a boy, over the age of sixteen, or a girl over the age of seventeen, unless owing to mental or physical infirmity the child is incapable of earning a livelihood, in which case the allowance may, if in the discretion of the Commission it seems best, be continued until the child is twenty-one. No allowance shall be paid in respect of a child after the marriage of such child. 20. No pension or allowance shall be paid to a member of the forces or any ner- son dependent upon him when the disability or death in respect of which the claim is made was occasioned by the negligence of sucli member, unless the Commission other- wise consent. 21. In all cases the claims by members of the forces for pensions must be made within two years of the date of the appearance of the disability in respect of which the claim is made. 22. A widowed mother, st6i>mother or grandmother wholly or mainly dependent upon a member of the forces who is killed or dies as the result of injuries received or disease contracted or aggravated while on active service, if such member was without dependent children and unmarried, or a widower, shall be entitled to a pension of [L.ieut. J. K. L. Ross.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 137 Class 3, provided, however, that no such woman shall be entitled to more than one pension. On the marriage of the woman such pension shall cease, but she shall be entitled then to a gratuity of an amount e(iuivalent to one year's pension. 23. A father, wholly or mainly dependent upon a son who is a member of the forces and who is killed or dies as the result of injuries received or disease contracted or aggravated while on active service, if such member was without dependent children and uimiarried, or a widower, shall be entitled to a pension of Class 3. 24. If a member of the forces to whom a pension has been granted in either Class 1 or in Class 2 dies, leaving a wife to whom he was married at the time of his incurring the disability in respect of which his pension was granted, or a woman occupying at said time the position of a wife within the purview of Kcgulation 18, or leaving cliildrcn by such wife or woman, the pension for the Class next below that granted the said member shall be given said wife or woman, and the allowance on behalf of any child or children shall be continued subject to the restrictions as to age as provided by Regulation ]9. On the marriage of the wife or woman her. pension shall cease, but she shall be entitled then to a gratuity equivalent to one year's pension. 25. Pensions to widows and allowance to children shall take effect from the day following that on which the death of the member of the forces in respect of whom said pension is granted occurred, and a gratuity equivalent to two months pension, or two months allowance, shall be paid the first month in addition to the pension. 2G. Subject to the approval of the Governor in Council the Commission may make such rules as it deems necessary for carrying out these regulations and the other duties assigned to it. 27. These Regulations shall only apply to or in respect of members of the Naval Forces of Canada and of the forces serving in the Canadian Expeditionary Forces during the present war; and shall be deemed to have come into force on the fourth day of August, 1914, and shall apply to or in respect of all casualties occurring in the said forces since the said fourth day of August. 28. Where a pension is awarded to a member of the forces in consequence of his insanity, if the i)ensioner is in an asylum or other institution the cost of his main- tenance therein shall be paid to the Superintendent or other proper officer of the asylum or other institution and the balance of such pension shall be paid to such dependent relative or relatives of the pensioner as the Commissioners may direct, and if there is no dependent relatis'e, such balance shall be retained until the pensioner's recovery or his death. If a pensioner is not in an asylum or other institution but remains in the care of the family, the whole of his pensioii may be paid to such member of his family as the Commissioners may direct, or part of the pension may be paid to such member of his family and the balance retained until the pensioner's recovery or death. Provided, however, that if a guardian of the pensioner has been apix>inted by any court of competent jurisdiction the Commissioners may direct that the pension be paid to such guardian. 29. No section. 30. In any case or matter in which the Commission desires the approval of, or to report to, the Governor in Council, such report shall l>e made through the Minister of Finance. 31. The Commission shall, at the end of each month, submit to the ^linister of Finance a report in writing of their proceedings and of the pensions, gratuities, allow- ances and other grants made by the said Commission during such month, and such reports shall be laid before Parliament by the Minister of Finance. I have here in a condensed form a statement showing the amounts of the pension, which I can distribute to the members if you like, giving the amount of pension in each class for all the different ranks. The CHAmMAK: That statement will be fyled on the records (Statement fyled as follows) : — 138 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS ^1- o ^: S 9 - a o Sic 2.2 O 01 -1 9&2 5^ C5 ^3 ^S >v2 §3 §S §? •^ •_>= -^ -^ ^ •_>. -^ ^2 ^.S ^S ^2 ^2 >^1a ^-2 il i§ i% il il |l to >^g >.§ >.g >Hg >Hg >.§ >H§ occ go Og OO oo go go O T-H -r C4 O ?0 (NO »Oi; c^ -v iO as t- -g oo OiO ©o €© M CO CO oc oo OO oo oo oo o© o© o© Si© oo oo ©»o oo 00 -t IMtO O© O CO OOD -^i f © o ©CO COCO O'S >0 5S cot- coo IMCO g S 8§ SS 71 m ^^ SS '^ i a 1 --. 1 rn §R 8,? ill •A 5® © ri o ©© ©«o ©© p© ©© oo O© © :o OO O© ©© OO COOO OtC 00-^ OC'^ IM50 O© t-Tt- 0«0 ©00 -^ © r-^ (M tree »o 00 o c-irHin— (^-^ > to ©© ©CO o© oo oo o© ©CO ©GO oo or- oo ^ (M bcA, il -si " h 2 2 2 I 1 a " S 3 2 '-S ^ 03 .—'2 CC 2 « be osite each rank, representing the amount of the pension for one year, and one mouth respectively. These amounts are worked out separately for convenience and accuracy in checking in the Department. Of course there are different modes of procedure in the difference of pensions, in this way : there is a pension to a widow of a soldier who has been killed, and that is the simplest and quickest class of cases we have to deal with at the present time. There is the pension of the man who has been disabled — Q. Do you make any difference in definition between the different classes of pen- sions? Do you speak of one as a pension, and of another as an allowance or gratuity? — A. We speak of it as a disability, as a soldier has been disabled and comes up for a pension. Q. Do you use the term "pension" whether it is the widow of a soldier, or the soldier himself? — A. Yes, but it is spoken of in the office according to the form we have for each class. Regarding the "disability" of a widow, or mother, when we talk of a "mothers" form, wc refer to the mother of a soldier, or to a step-father, or step- mother, etc., as laid down in the Order in Council. There is also the gratuity, and we differentiate slightly on that. In the first place, take the pension of a widow whose husband has been killed, or has died as the result of service, we receive notice from the Militia Department, and we then immediately send over, and "draw" the fyle of that man. We see that all the papers are there, but at the present time we are delayed slightly and sometime the delay is a cause of complaint — may I just preface that? Q. Delay by reason of not getting the fyle? — A. No, not that, but delay by having to wait before we receive from the ^filitia Department the amount of deductions to be taken off the first month's pension cheque. However, a new Order has been passed so that there will be no delay from that cause in the future. Q. You might explain what deductions are made from the pension of the widow? — A. If the man killed was in debt to the Government, instead of the Government being in debt to him, it has been customary to deduct the indebtedness from the widow's first pension cheque. It has been contended, and the contention has been finally admitted, that the woman's pension should be unimpaired on the part of the husband, ^fr. Pardke: IIow can a man be in debt to the Government? The CHAiR>rAX : By overdrawing his account, probably for advances made to him in excess of the amount he was entitled to. By Hon. Mr. Murphy : Q. Mr. Ross and his board wanted to be relieved of that, as I understand it. Is not that so, Mr. Ross? — A. Yes, we wanted to be given a free hand. I do hot know whether or not the Order ha? gone through to-day. By Mr. Ross: Q. For some time after a man is killed the widow continues to get her separation allowance and the adjustment of that might cause delay?— A. Yes. What we want now is that when a man is killed we will then make out a pension for the full amount, and that, if he had a dependent, then tlie separation allowance and assigned pay would be continued by the ^Militia Department until we had the first pension chetiue ready, so that we could say to the Militia Department, for example, "We want to stop the assigned pay and separation allowance, on the 2Sth February of this year, and we will send the widow a pension cheque from the first of March." By tlw Chairman : Q. That question, if I understand rightly, of the separation allowance, stands in this position: If a man is killed, leaving a widow, the assigned pay ceases after a certain date. Rut now the idea is that the separation allowance and the assigned pay [Lieut. J. K. L. Ross.] 140 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS shall continue to the widow initil she got the pension. As a matter fact, does not the widow now get her pension, whatever the amount may be, from the date of the death of her husband ?— A. That is right, but now, under the new Order, in accordance with our request the Militia Department will continue the separation allowance and the assigned pay up to the day we are ready with the pension cheque. Q. She may get more under that arrangement? — A. No. Take a case at the pre- sent time. We will say to the Pay Branch : Stop your pay and' the separation allowance and assigned pay on the 2Sth of February; we are sending a cheque on the 1st of March. Q. Even then she ma^ get more? — A. Slightly more. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. The idea is that there shall be no hiatus? — A. Yes. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Can you give me an idea of the average time required to put through a pension? I liave had some difficulties myself? — A. There has been on an average — there are a number of cases that have gone over a lapse of a month where the women would have missed her cheque. Q. I know of some cases in which the widow has not been able to get her pension for six months? — A. I know that. Q. How do you account for that?— A. Well, in the case of a widow there have been a number of things, getting the final settlement. By the Chairman : Q. She must be able, I suppose- to produce her marriage certificate? — A. The marriage certificate and the birth certificate we have been lax with requiring in granting the first cheque, allowing these to be sent in afterwards. We have not held up a pension for the sake of these. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. The widow gets not only the pension since the husband's death, but two months' pay in addition? — A. Yes. Q. If a married soldier M^ere killed on the 1st of March, and the widow had received assigned pay for January and February, would she also get her pension for January and February? — A. "No, not under the new arrangement. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Is the two months' gratuity a new arrangement? — A. No. Under the new arrangement there will be separation allowance and assigned pay up to the time that the pension starts. There will be no overlapping. Q. And no gratuity? — A. And there will be two months' gratuity. Q. She will be getting for two months assigned pay and separation allowance by way of gratuity? — A. She got that before. The Chairman : The gratuity is regarded as a present to enable her to reorganize her home. By Mr. Pardee: Q. That gratuity is still part of the pension? — A. Absolutely. Q. She does not get any gratuity in the next cheque? — A. No, it is a present of two months allowance. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. It is oidy a bonus paid at the start? — A. Yes. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. Is it always given with her first cheque ? — A. Yes. [Lieut. J. K. L. Ross.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 141 Q. Ill some cases, it has not been given ? — A. I will tell you why. Under the old regulations there may have been deductions anlounting to that. Mr. Ross: Not in the cases I refer to. By the Chairman: Q, IIow many pensions have you granted to widows so far? If you have the record there of the different kinds of pensions granted, you may give it all at one time : that is, the number granted to widows, the number to disabled men, and so on? — A. I have a statement that I will put into the record. Q. You might give us that statement ? — A. It is as follows . — I'KVSlnNKUS AM) ClIILDUKX OF PENSIONERS IN RESPECT OF WHOM PENSIONS AND ALLOWANCES ARE PAID. European War To February 22nd, 1917. (Approximate Figures.) Pensioners : Disabilities 4,065 Widows of Soldiers 2,843 Orphan Children 150 Other Dependents', including Fathers, Mothex's, etc 641 Pensioners less cancellations 7,699 Children of Pensioners in respect of whom allowances are paid 4,955 Total Pensioners and Children of Pensioners in respect of whom pensions and allowances are paid 12,654 By Mr. Middlebro: Q. The 4,065 disabilities represent soldiers themselves? — A. Yes, the amounts varying according to the scale. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Have you the disabilities classified? — A. Y"es. on another statement. By the Chairman: Q. AVhat do the pensions granted amount to in money? — A. For the month of January this year, we have paid from Ottawa $249,831. That does not include pensions paid in England. I have not the Januai'y statement from England yet; but in Decem- ber the English payments Avere $62,905, or in other words the total in December for all pensions was $298,374. Q. Give us the December figures for Canada? — A. They amount to $235,469. I have a statement showing the payments every month since April, 1916. The Chairman: I think that will be interesting as showing how the pensions have grown. By Hon. Mr. Bdcourt: Q. Are all of the widows living in Canada? — A. We have pri\ctically a branch in London who sit on cases over there of soldiers who arc disabled and who are to take up their residence in England. The dependents, widows or mothers, who reside in Great Britain or Ireland, have their pensions paid over there. Even of the pensions that have been granted on this side, some of the women have moved over to the Old Country and have requested that their pensions be paid from England. By the Chairman: • Q. The rate paid is the same whether in Canada or England? — A. Yes. 142 .SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. These figures do not indicate the classes of pensioners residing in England. There are some of both classes? — A. Yes. # By Mr. Pardee: • Q. For the benefit of the Committee will you give us the amount of pensions paid a year ago and for the last completed month that you have?— A. The figures I have here only date from last April. In April 1916, the total here and in England amounted to $44,687. Q. And in January, 1917 ?— A. In December it was $298,874. Mr. MiDDLEBRO: In that period it had increased six times. Witness : The amount paid from the Head Office here in Ottawa in April, 1916, was $27,000, and in January, 1917, $249,831. I will now file a statement showing the total actual payments on account of the war from April 1, 1916, to January 31, 1917. Total Actual Payments on account of European War, from April 1, 1916, to January 31, 1917, paid from Ottawa and England. Year. April May June July August. . . . September. October. . . . No\'ember . December. . .January. . . Month. Total Amount. •■5 cts. 44,687 56 68,303 63 94,574 01 112,238 63 162,816 17 186,5.50 93 191,623 .36 221,676 71 298,374 75 Paid from Ottawa. •S cts. 27,381 45 53,103 83 62,446 30 88,081 31 125,300 96 1.36.892 2ii 141,198 87 170,493 97 •235,469 21 249,831 19 Paid from England. S cts. 17,306 11 15,199 80 32,127 71 24,157 32 37,515 21 49,6.58 70 30,424 49 51,182 74 62,905 54 Q. The payments this month in pensions will amount to over $300,000? — A. Yes, over $300,000. Brigadier-General Mason : About $10,000 a day. By the Chairman : Q. Have you figures with you as to how many pending cases there are? — A. I was about to give you that information in another way. Here is a statement of the number of pensions issued and gratuities gi'anted from August 4, 1914, to February 22, 1917. [Lieut. J. K. L. Ross.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 143 XuMBER of Pensions issued and Gratuities granted, August 4, 1914, to February 22, 1917. — (Approximate figures.) European War only. 1914. 1916. 1917. Month. Auffust 4 to September 11, 1916. September 11 to 30 October November December January February 1 to 22 Total to date No. of Pensions itsufed . 3,901 244 33.5 966 873 1,11.5 8,15G No. of Gratuities granted. 480 31 96 165 195 120 1.146 Now, I cannot vouch for tlie absolute accuracy of the figures for September and October, 1916, as we were then in a state of metamorphosis caused by the removal nf the office front the Militia Building to our present location. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Where are you located now? — A. In the Union Bank Building. The number issued from August 4 to September 11, 1916, namely, 3,901, represent the heads of families, it does not include children. Q. Have you an idea as to how m^iy applications you have to deal with? — A. I know that yesterday there were applications in the office being typed and to go through to the number of 725. Some of those are included among the 722 so far granted this month. By Mr. Pardee : Q. That means 1,400 odd pensions granted and applied for so far this month? — A. There is an accumulation, but it is gradually being reduced. Even with the accumulation we cannot be a month behind. By the Chairman: Q. You are not a month behind now? — A. 'No. By Mr. Pardee: Q. I thought the applications had piled up this month? — A. Not this month. There are iisually some 500 applications in our office in the course orcarrying through. By the Chairman: Q. If no more pension claims come in you would finish up with those on hand in two or three weeks? — A. I should say easily. Q. Have any of the pension claims beeii before you for any considerable length of time? — A. "When we receive all the data required, there is nothing to hold up the applications. Q. Not when the data is complete? — A. No, sir. Q. Is it possible for an application to be pigeon-holed and for a lengthy period to 1 lapse before it is dealt with? — A. T do not think so unless there is some inadvertence. It would be only some few odd pensions that through absolute neglect or inadvertence would be held up. That, however, is not where the complaints have come in. Further- more, we are certain now that under the new regulations bona fide complaints will amount to next to nothing. [Lieat. T. K. I.,. Poss.] 144 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Most of the complaints, as I understand, occur during the hiatus between the time the pay ceases and the pension commences? — A. Yes. Complaints have also arisen from another draw-back, which we ourselves have corrected. That is, in regard to a disabled soldier who has to come up for re-examination. Practically no pension is granted, say on an 80 per cent disability scale, and continued indefinitely; the man must come up for re-examination either at the end of six months or at the end of a year. There have been complaiiits with respect to a man not being re-examined in time to prevent a hiatus in his pension. Q. And where would the fault lie?— A. So far as I know the notices for re- examination have always been sent out promptly; but since the receipt of complaints, not always entirely well-founded, we have adopted the policy of continuing the man's pension on the same scale until he has been re-examined, unless there is direct evidence that the man refused to take re-examination or that he was entirely to blame. In that event we must stop the man's cheque in order to bring him up for re-examination. Q. Take the case of a man whose pension was based on 40 per cent disability, and who breaks down completely afterwards. What machinery is there to permit that man to be re-examined, and to reconsider his pension ? — A. Under clause 5 of the Order in Council that man is entitled to appeal. Q. Appeal to whom? — A. To the Board of Pension Commissioners. Q. To the three of you sitting as a Board of judges? — A. Yes. We would ask for re-examination for a case like that. Q. Who conducts your medical examination for you? — A. We send the man to a medical board. Q. Is the re-examination carried out by the staff of the Army Medical Corps? — A. It will be done by medical men of the Military Hospital Commission or a military board. Q. You have not a medical board of your own ? — A. We have no medical board of our own, although there are doctors in our office. Q. Have you a medical staff in connection with your office which critically over- looks each Medical Board's report, concerning i^ensions, that comes in? — A. Colonel Belton, in our office, does that, and Colonel Dunbar overlooks the medical history of the invalided soldier and the report of the Medical Board, and reports to our board his opinion. We look it over and pass or send it back for further reference. Q. And if the docket is not complete? — A. They might not be on the file in full detail, in regard to the Medical Board's report; they might not give the proper per- centage, they might give a percentage that might not fit. In other words, they might have the rnan down for a percejitage of disability — I have in mind cases which have come to my knowledge — where they v/ould have a man down 30 per cent disability, but from the reading matter in the report which would come to us he is entitled to a greater disability. » ' Q. What would you do in a case like that? — A. What I would do in that case would be to go in to Mg,jor Todd, who is the medical man on our board, call his attention to the matter, and he would take it up. ' Q. You set up a final board of appeal in Section 5 of the Order? — A. Yes. By Mr. Ross: Q. I have an incident in mind in which a mnu was killed in France; he had gone from this country a private, and had been raised to the rank of sergeant. While he was in France he was put in a cadet corps, I think they call it, to qualify for a lieutenant. While he was undergoing the course of training, he was taken out and put in the trenches, and put on temporary pay as lieutenant. The man was killed. Would that woman be given a pension as the widow of a sergeant, or as the widow of a lieutenant? What is the practice in a case like that?— A. It depends altogether upon whether he was acting and was paid as a lieutenant when he received his^ [Lieut. J. K. L. Ross.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 145 disability. If he was acting and paid as a lieutenant at that time he would receive the pension of that rank. Q. He was taking a lieutenant's course, and was taken out and put in the tren- ches? — A. The duty lie was doing at the time would be the determining factor in that case. Here is the order which applies to such cases (reads) : — " If, during the present war, a soldier dies, or is wounded or injured, while holding paid acting rank, any resulting grant of pension or gratuity to his widow or children, or other dependents, or any pension awarded to the soldier in consequence of medical unfitness caused by the wound or injury may be made at the rate appropriate to the acting instead of the permanent rank." Brigadier-Ceneral Mason : In the case spoken of by Mr. Ross the man was quali- fied for the position in which he was acting? Mr. Ross: He was qualified. Witness: But he was only acting. By Mr. Boss : Q. That man was killed on the 30th July, and the widow has not got a pension yet. — A. I do not know what the cause of delay was, I would like very much to know. Q. Another case happened in my town in which a man was killed on .Tulj^ 9, and his mother only got her pension within 10 days ? — A. " Mother " is the difficulty. Q. There was no difficulty in this case. — A. " Mother " and " father " cases in some instances take a longer time to settle. They have sometimes to go back for fur- ther consideration. By the Chairman: Q. What do you do in the case of a man reported " missing " ? — A. That is also another case in which delay occurs, and it is another case of " hiatus " under the pre- • sent arrangement which will be obviated under the new regulation. At the present time if a man is reported missing, it is six months before he is officially reported to us as dead — the dependents will receive assigned pay and separation allowance in the meantime. By the Chairman: Q. They do not receive the assigned pay now, and they will receive it under the new regulation? — A. They receive the assigned pay nnd separation allowance for three months, and, at the end of three months, the assigned pay continues for another three months. But under the new regulation, both will continue for the six months, or. until such time, as the pension is ready. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. After tlio six months, then what? — A. They should be ready for pension. Under the new regulations we are going to start machinery to work so that we will be ready to start the pension by the seventh month. By Mr. Boss: Q. Have you any other case, such as I have mentioned, where a man taking a course on active service has been killed? — A. Xo, I have not come across any. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. Would this case come under your rule: a young man was killed who was the sole support of a mother who was not a widow, but whose husband had deserted her ten years before? — A. She would get a pension. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. Is she not prima facie entitled to a pension if on separation allowance? — A. A clause was put into this new Order, in >egard to that. 28277—10 146 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. It does not necessarily follow that she is entitled to a pension? — A. Not neces- sarily, but it gives prima face evidence that the claim is reasonable. Q. Is a mother living- out of your jurisdiction entitled to a i)ension? — A. Yes. Q. If she lives out of Canada, in the United States? — A. Yes. Q. Is there anything further you would like to put on record for the edification of tKe Committee? Are there any documents you wish to put in? — A. Yes, I would like to say something on the insane question, upon which some evidence was given yesterday, in reply to questions by the Committee. We have to deal with pensions to insane people xmder clause 28 of the Regulations which reads as follows (reads) : — " 28. Where a pension is awarded to a member of the forces in consequence of his insanity,, if the pensioner is in an asylum or other institution, the cost of his maintenance therein shall be paid to the superintendent, or other proper officer of the asylum, or other institution, and the balance of such pension shall be paid to such dependent, relative, or relatives of the pensioner as the commis- sioners may direct, and if there is no dependent relative, such balance shall be retained until the pensioner's recovery or his death. If a pensioner is not in an asylum or other institution but remains in the care of the family, the whole of his pension may be paid to such member of his family, as the commissioners may direct, or part of the pension may be paid to such member of his family and the balance retained until the pensioner's recovery or death, provided, however, that if a guardian of the pensioner has been appointed by any court of competent jurisdiction, the commissioners may direct that the pension be paid to sucli guardian." By Brigadier- General Mason: Q. In the case of a married ipan would that regulation apply, as his wife is prac- tically a widow ? — A. May I say now just what we are doing with these cases ? In the case of the insane we have made arrangements with nearly all of the Provinces to take tically a widow. Why should she suffer? — A. She will not suffer. I will explain: We are authorized to grant a further allowance than the $480 and to provide -$250 a year for attendance. By the Chairman: Q. That is if the man is totally disabled. You regard an insane man as totally disabled, as he cannot look after himself? — A. Yes. By Brigadier- General Mason: Q. Take the case of a married man confined in an insane asylum, his wife is prac- tically a widow. \ by should she suffer? — A. She will not suffer. I will explain : We are authorized to give a total disability of $480 plus $250. Now, we do it in this way: we have made arrangements with the insane hospitals or asylums in the different provinces, excepting British Columbia, and if you like I will put a precis of the agree- ments on file. The proposal submitted to each of the provinces was as follows : — That the province should agree to maintain and care for Insane, Discharged and Pensioned Members of the Forces at the rate of $250 x)er year, in the various asylums throughout each province. Province of Prince Edward Island. — This province will care for and maintain 25 insane soldiers in the Faleonwood Hospital, at the rate of $250 per year. Province^ of New Brunswick. — This province will maintain insane discharged soldiers at the Provincial Hospitals at Fairville, at the rate of $250 per year. [Lieut. J. K. L. Ross.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDXJ CATION 147 Province of Saskatchewan. — This province will maintain and care for insane dis- charged soldiers at the rate of $250 per year. Province of Nova Scotia. — This province will care for and maintain insane dis- charged soldiers in the Nova Scotia Hospital at the rate of $250 per year, provided such soldiers have a settlement in the province, and provided there is room in the hospital for the patient*. This v\'as only a tentative arrangement, and is suhject to a definite agreement which is to be made between this Board and the province, at a later date. Province of Alberta. — -This province will maintain insane discharged soldiers at the rate of $250 per year while in the Hospital for the Insane at Ponoka, Alta. The special rate does not cover cost of transportation and other incidentals prior to admission in the said hospital, nor d )es it apply to any other institution in the said province. Province of Ontario. — This province will maintain insane discharged members of the forces at the institutions for the insane for this province, at the rate of $250 per year. Province of Manitoba. — This province will maintain in institutions all discharged insane soldiers committed to them by any military hospital for the insane, at the rate of $250 per aimum. The Lunacy Act is to be amended to provide for this arrangement. Province of Quebec. — This province states that the proprietors of- the St. Jean de Dieu Asylum will accept insane discharged soldiers at the rate of $250 per annum, certain formalities having been properly carried out, provided that when enrolled the soldiers were domiciled bona fide in the province of Quebec. As regards soldiers on active service already confined, these will be continued when discharged, at the rate of $250 per annum. The Provincial Secretary of Quebec states that the asylums in Quebec are at present overcrowded. Province of Biitish Columbia. — The proix)sal of the Board has not as yet received acceptance, nor has this province in any way acknowledged the letters which this Board has written. I am given to understand that the rates in this province vary from nothing with respect of men domiciled in British Columbia, to $1 a day for those not domiciled therein. By the Chairman: Q. In the case of all the provinces but British Columbia you secure the care of the insane patient for $250 a year, that leaves $480? — A. That leaves $480. But that man, when he is in the asylum, as Senator Mason has said, is praetically dead, and the wife is almost a widow; so we grant her $384 a year which is the amount a widow would receive. Q. That is $32 a month? — A. Yes, plus $6 a month for each child, if she has any children, and that is what she receives if her husband is in the asylum. Xow there is a difference of $9G, namely the difference between $384 and $480 not accounted for. That $96 remains in the Government to the credit Q. It reverts to the State? — A. Not if the man had dependents. We carry that $06 in trust for that man. If he is cured and comes out, then he goes off pension. If he stays in the asylum three years he would find about $300 to his credit and then he would go off pension. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Does his pension cease? — A. If he is cured? Q. Yes, does his pension cease then? — A. Certainly. By the Chairman: Q. If his insanity is temporary and he is thoroughly cured, he gets no pension ? — A. No, If he came out of the hospital pronounced by a medical board as fit his pen- sion ceases. 28277— lOi 148 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Boss (Middlesex)': Q. That seems hardly fair? — A. It is the only interpretation of the regulations. Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : It seems hardly fair, for during his confinement in the asylum he has gained nothing, he has lost his trade or occupation. The Chairman: There has accumulated for him about $300, and his wife and family have been taken care of. The Witness: What can we do? By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. We are trying to have things made right if they are not right. — A. The man's family have been taken care of. Q. Better "than if he were dead? — A. The widow would get that pension if he were dead. ' By Mr. Middlehro : Q. The man might come out in ten years from the asylum and be less able to earn a livelihood. — A. That is different from pensions. If that man had no depen- dents, or if he died, that $96 would go to his estate. By the Chairman: Q. To his natural heirs? — A. If he had any dependents and died. The Chairman: To use a concrete example, for a man with a wife and three children, if insane and sent to an asylum, it wovdd cost the Government $850 a year; $384 would be allowed to his wife, $216 a year for the three children, and $250 for his keep in the asylum. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. If the man died the widow would receive $480 a year and $1S a month for the children?— A. No, she would get $384. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Up to what age is pension allowed for the children? — A. Sixteen years for a boy, seventeen years for a girl, unless they are mentally disabled. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. What percentage of $480 does the widow get? — A. She gets 80 per cent and the mother of the soldier gets 60 per cent. By the Chairman: Q, Is there, anything further you would like to file on the record? — ^A. I have here a list of the number of insanity cases that we have at the present time. It is as follows: — [Lieut. J. K. L.. Ross.l RECEPTIOX, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 149 INSANITY CASES. Province. Total Cases. In Homes. In Asylums. Addresses not known. 1 1 13 2 4 3 1 1 1 1 5 1 Beaui)ort Asylum 2 Verdun 1 St. Jean de Dieu 2 Homewood Sanitarium, Guelph . . . . i Hospital for Insane, London. . 4 Hospital for Insane, Hamilton 2 Rockwood Asylum, Brock ville. ... . 1 Hrandcm Asylum 2 Selkirk Asylum 2 Provincial Hospital. Battleford 3 Ponoka Asylum 2 4 New Brunswick Quebec- Ontario Manitoba Saskatchewan 1 Alberta Ttrifiuh nnliimhia Cmada England 9 \ 26 40 9 5 Bu Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. Have they all been at the front? — A. I could get that information. Mr, Ross: I would like to know if they have all been actually in the firing line. The Chairman : We will ask the witness to in\t on file for us how many of these forty cases have been at the front. Hon. Mr. Murphy : And what the membership of the families is. Mr. Pardee : I believe it has been stated that 99 per cent of the men who became insane were either epileptics, syphilitic or alcoholic. If we could get the history of 20 out of these 40 cases, it would be most enlightening. By the Chairman: Q. I think, Mr. Ross, you could, take these 40 cases and analyse them for us on the lines suggested? — A. I am sorry to say, that at the present time, of these forty cases it happens that there are 5 that we do not know the addresses of. These insane people have got lost, or something. Of the 40 cases, 9 are in private homes, and 20 in asylums. The remaining five we do not know just where they are. The Chairman : Probably their friends may know. By Mr. Pardee : Q. Are you paying allowances fi)r them? — A. We cannot pay them because we do not know where thev are. By Mr. Sutherland : Q. Do you know what proportion of this number have been overseas? — A. No, I am going to get that. Q. I do not mean actually at the front; I mean cases that developed before they went overseas? — A. There are some, perhaps, but I could not say offliand. The Chairman : The witness is going to take these 40 cases and give us an analysis of them, as to how maiiy went to France, how many to England, and how many became insane here; secondly as to the cause of the insanity. If he has the facts I should like the witness to give us the nationality, the place of birth, of each case. The WiTNEjis: I will try and get as complete a statement as jxissible from our files. [Lieut. J. K. L. Ross.] 150 {SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. Is there any further matter?— A. I do not know whether you are interested in it. but I have a classification of the disabilities as on the 26th of January. I did not make it originally for this Committee. Q. That is worth putting in the record.— A. It gives the number of men in the various By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. That should be on the record ?— A. It gives also the number of cases of tuber- culosis and insanity. The statement is as follows: — Ottawa^ Januaiy 26, 1917. Classified List op Disability Pensions. Loss of — Foot 4 Leg 53 2 legs 1 Finger 9 2 fingers 9 . 3 fingers 1 4 fingers 1 Hand 6 Arm 31 Sight one eye 36 Sight both eyes 4 Eye 95 Teeth 2 252 Disease — Valvular disease heart 160 Fractured skull 26 Marked deafness T6 Tuberculosis 449 Insanity 36 747 Total 999 By the Chairman: Q. Are you in a position to tell us with respect to tuberculous ca^es that have been pensioned, how many got to the front, or as far as England, and what were the fundamental reasons for these tuberculous cases? — A. We have 449 tuberculous cases at the present time. Q. Could you give us an analysis of these cases? — A. We will have to take the files and look over their history. The Chairman: I do not think you could have better material for a study of tuberculosis among our soldiers than these 449 tuberculous cases. You have in the Department all the data concerning these cases, and if you analyse them and find out how many reached France, how many reached England, and how many remained in Canada, it would be possible to discover those men that were in an incipient stage of tuberculosis before enlisting. The figures afford excellent material for investigation. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Has your Board met with any special difficulties in its work ? — A. The greatest difficulty, as I explained before, has been to overcome the hiatus. [Lieut. J. K. L. Ross.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 151 Q. But you have overcome that difficulty by means of your new r^ulation? — A. Yes. Q. Have any other difficulties confronted you? — A. One problem we had to solve was the creation of an efficient organization. We are now fully satisfied that we have such an organization. We feel that we have an organization we have no need to be ashamed of. We have been blamed for some things, but I venture to say that in 99 out of every 100 such cases we were not responsible.^ Q. What I mean is, you have not met with any difficulties which you have not been able to overcome, or that you do not see a fair prospect of overcoming in a short time? — A. No. Q. The funds at your disposal are provided by a special Act of Parliament? — A. We come under the Finance Department. We make an estimate of our needs and cheques are drawn up in our office and lists of the amounts to be paid, and they are sent to the Auditor General, from whose office payment is made. Q. What does your staff number? — A. About 150 in Ottawa. Q. And elsewhere, how many? — A. We are at the present time opening offices between Vancouver and Halifax to the number of 16. That is being done to facilitate the granting of outside pensions, and we intend to make sure that every pensioner is seen at least once a year by a representative of our office. By the Chairman : Q. Have inspectors been appointed for every locality? — A. Not yet, sir. They will, I think, have been before the middle of March. Q. Do you plan to have the entire field divided into districts and have an inspector visit every family in each district at least once a year? — A. We do. Q. But you are now creating 16 new offices? — A. Yes. Q. How many will the staff number in each office? — A. Two to three, or four to five, Q. And you have a staff of 150 at your head office now? — A. Yes. Q. How many have you overseas? — A. That work is under Sir Montague Hugh Allen's Board. Q. Is that distinct from your board? — A. They are under us, but there is no pay office in his place; they merely constitute a board to sit in judgment on cases. By Mr. Pardee : Q. And report to you ? — A. Reports from them have to be confirmed by us. By the Chairman : Q. Can you make any inspection of cases outside Canada? — A. Do you mean in the United States? Q. In the United States or in England? — A. As to England, yes. We want to establish there an organization similar to what we have here, except that over there all the work will be done from the head office. There will only be one office, as, owing to the small extent of country, branch offices are not needed. Q. You continue the pension for a boy until he reaches the iige of 16? — A. Until 16 in the case of a boy, and 17 in the ease of a girl. Q. What means have you of making sure of their birthdays? — A. We have a birthday book — really a card index book, in which the several months appear, beginning January 17. By Brigadier- General Ma^on: Q. What information are you supposed to have as to whether these children are living? — A. Once a month, with every clieque that goes out, we send out a form. This (showing document) is a widow's form, and this other a man's form. In these forms they must fill in every month the name of each child and the date of its birth. Every March and September they must make a further statement on the same form. The March forms are going out now. At the bottom of each form must appear this certi- [Lieut. J. K. L. Ross.] 152 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— G.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS ficate : " This is to certify that the foregoing declaration and signature (or mark) was made by the above-named (guardian or pensioner) in my presence." By the Chairman: Q. That is the notarial certificate?— A. Yes, it must be signed before a clergy- man. I will now file a copy of the form. BOAKD OF PENSIOi^ COMMISSIONERS FOR CANADA. Claim for Pension for Dependents. Insert Your Pension No EimOPEAN WAR. Notice.— This certificate is to be completed and returned immediately you receive it or payment of your pension will be delayed. Present name in full. I hereby solemnly declare that my present name is and that I am entitled to a pension from the Dominion of Canada as the of Name in full, Rank and Corps. and (if a widowed mother) that I have not contracted marriage since my pension was first granted. Fill in place giving full postal address. I am residing at ( Street and number) City or town of Province of and request my next pension cheque bQ sent to this address. The following are true particulars of the children now alive, boys under 16 years and girls under 17 years of age. To be signed by a Police Magistrate, or Notary Public, or Justice of the Peace, or a clergyman, only during the months of March and September. NAME IN FULL. DATE OF BIRTH. NAME IN FULL. DATE OF BIRTH. Day and Month. Year. Day and Month. Year. .Signature or mark of Pensioner. [Lieut. J. K. L. Ross.] RECEPTION', TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 153 It is only during the months of March and September the following certificate must be completed. This is to certify that the foregoing declaration and signature (or mark) were made by the above named (guardian or pensioner) in my presence this day of . .' 191 . . . ., and I believe to be the person (s) repre- sent (s) to be and that the children above named are alive. ' Signature. Rank or Position. Postal Address. Q. Have you any check system at Ottawa whereby, when the cheques come back you can verify the signatures? — A. The cheques go to the Auditor General. Q. You do not i;ttempt to make sure that the right woman Rtts her cheque? — A. We soon hear about it if she does not. Q. In giving a i>ension do you grant it to the person whom the soldier indicates to be his dependent, or do you grant it to his legal wife? Suppose a man left his legal wife four years' ago and lived with another woman. Afterwards he enlists and is killed. Which of these two women gets the pension?— A. The real wife. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Does not the other woman get the separation allowance i — A. We do not issue that. Q. But do you know, as a matter of fact ? — A. That depends upon how the matter has been dealt with in the Militia Department. I must say that we have given the cheque to the wrong woman first at different times, because of the report of the Militia Department stating that the deceased soldier's next of kin was so and so. By the Chairman: Q. Your practice would differ from the Militia Department^ — A. We cannot do otherwise. Q. The Militia Department makes payment to the woman whom the man, when he enlists, says was dependent upon him at that time. That woman accordingly gets the separation allowance, but it frequently happens that the woman who drew the separation allowance when the man was living is cut off after the man has been killed? — A. That may happen. The CiiAip.MANi: What would happen if a man luul two familici? of childi'en? 'I'lie Patriotic Fund at ^lontreal has 1.52 wives who are claiming half-allowances. Bi/ Mr. Pardee: Q. Do they both get the allowance, or do you accept the legal wife i — A. Yes and all the children, provided it is proven that the man lived with the woman publicly. Q. But supposing she produces the marriage certificate, even if he were not living with her publicly? — A. We mean the wives producing the marriage certificate. I am talking of the married wife. By Hon. Mr. Belcourt: Q. How do you determine whose eliildren they are, in the case of an unmarrieendix herein.) The Ch.\irman: The Clerk of the Committee has asked that the following two resolutions be passed by the Committee : Moved by ^^[r. Ross (Middlesex), and seconded by Mr. Sutherland, that the Chair- man of the Committee or some other member thereof, on the re-assembling of Parlia- ment, ask the House to authorize the Special Committee on Returned Soldiers to report from time to time. ^lotion agreed to. Moved by Mr. McCurdy, seconded by Hon. Mr. Murphy, that the following l>e the contents of the first report to be presented to the House by the Special Com- mittee on Returned Soldiers : 1. That the House grant leave to the Committee to send for persons, papers and things; 2. That the Committee be authorized to print the evidence taken and the statements submitted in connection therewith from day to day for the use of the Committee ; 3. That the Committee be granted leave to adjourn from place to place. All of which is respectfully submitted, ^folion agreed to. 165 166 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— G.E.F.-RETURXED SOLDIERS The CiiAiuMAx: Our first witness this morning is Col. F. W. INIarlow. Col. Mar- low has written me a letter, which I think, should be read to the Committee. (Reads): February 2.^rd, 1917. From Colonel F. W. Marlow, A.M.C., To Sir Herbert Ames, Chairman of the Parliamentary Committee on Returned Soldiers, Ottawa. SiR^ — With reference to my report on the Medical Services of Canada which was completed on October 20, 1916, I have the honour to direct your attention to the fact that my report does not include a detailed report on the Convalescent Hospitals and Homes under the Military Hospitals Commission. Although T inspected practically all these institutions and have the information at hand, I did not consider it within my province to make a detailed report on them. At the time of my inspection the institutions under the Hospitals Commis- sion were as enumerated and described in the Military Hospitals Commission Bulletin IsTo. 2, June 1916, with the exception that two or three of these were not then in use. No others had been added up to the time of my inspection except a small one at St. Catharines, Ont., which up to the pl-esent time has been used very little. Although I did not report on these, as stated above, I may say that on October 25, 1916, following the transmission of a copy of my report to the Hon- ourable the Minister of Militia, I wired him as follows: " Strongly recommend conference with yourself, other cabinet representa- tives, hospital commission and medical service before commission takes over medical service to returned soldiers. Present state of problem demands urgent consideration." The telegram clearly indicates that I did not consider the then state of dealing with returned soldiers from a medical point of view to be satisfactory. I have the honour to be, sir, Your obedient servant, F. W. MARLOW, Colonel A.M.C. Col. F. W. Marlow Called, Sworn and Examined. By the Chairman: Q. Col. .Marlow, will you kindly state the position you occupy and the duties you perform in respect of the Militia service in Canada? — A. I have been performing the duties of Assistant Director of Medical Services in Military District No. 2, with the headquarters at Toronto. Q. How long did you occupy that position? — A. I was appointed Deputy Assistant Director of Medical Services on March 29, 1915, and I was appointed as Assistant Director of Medical Sei-viees on April 22, 1915. Q. Do you occupy the position now ? — A. Yes, I believe so, yet. Q. What area do you exercise jurisdiction over? — A. The whole of Military District No. 2. Q. Did your duties take you outside of Military District No. 2? — A. Not my regnilar duties. Q. Were you at any time asked by the Minister to perform duties that required your going outside of District No. 2? — A. Yes. sir. [Col. F. "W. Marlow.] RECEPTION, TREATilEXT AXD RE-EDVCATIOX 167 Q. Will you explain what those duties were? — A. I was asked by the Hon. the Minister of Militia to make an inspection of the Medical Services of the whole of Canada, in respect of the Canadian Expeditionary Force, and for the purposes of making a report. . Q. Did you carry out that instruction? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What dates were covered by your inspection? — A. I think sir, August 14 — the beginning of my report states the date. Q. You received TTeadquarters instructions on August 14. 1916; how soon after receiving those instructions did you commence your inspection? — A. About a week or ten days. At that time my Deputy was absent on leave and I was delayed in begin- ing my inspection for a few days on account of his absence. Q. When did you complete your tour of inspection? — A. That is stated on the front of my report, October — Q. October 18, 1916, I believe, is the date given? — A. That is the date. sir. Q. During that inspection did you visit all the provinces of Canada? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you visit all hospitals under the Army Medical Service? — A. Yes, with one exception, sir. One of the hospitals at Halifax I was unable to visit, really because of my train connections. I was there on Saturday and was anxious to get on to Alder- shot Camp that evening to spend Sunday at the camp; and I omitted the inspection of one hospital at Halifax. The one at Rock Head is the one I did not see. Q. Did you also inspect the convalescent hospitals under the control of the Military Hospitals Commission, both private and semi-private? — A. With one or two exceptioiis. I did not visit the Ross Home at Sydney, nor did I see the Sir Sanford Fleming Home at Ottawa, nor the Kccfer Home at Port Arthur. I saw all other Homes in Canada. Q. If I understand correctly, the results of your investigation are summarized in certain recommendations to be found on pp. 23. 2-t, 25, 26 and 27 of your typewritten report. Do these embody the gist of your conclusions after the inspection which you made? — A. Yes, sir, so far as I was able to make recommendations; but I may point out to you. as stated in paragraph 26, that pending further information on the future policy of the Canadian Medical Service oversejvs, further recommendations were with- held. I may say that this report was made at the time that the Medical Service overseas had been reported on, and it seemed obvious that a new policy was to be adopted in resiK>ct to sending home men. Therefore, at that particular time I did not con- aider it advisable to follow up these recommendations or, at least, to make any further recommendations with regard to the whole situation. Q. Looking over these recommendations, which of them, in your judgment, have reference to the problem of the returned soldiers? — A. I should say that inasmuch a> the medical service generally was, and is still, interested in the problem of dealing with returned soldiers, all of the general recommendations should be applicable. For example, Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. My idea is that the general recommendations apply inasmuch as the Medical Service of Canada has never been relieved of the medical service in respect to returned soldiers. Mr. MiDDLEBRO: What you say is quite true, but it seems to me that some of the matt(ys dealt with are so indirect, that if we once enter upon a consideration of them we shall never be able to terminate this enquiry. By the Chairman: Q. I am prepared to admit that tu a certain extent the causes which have made men returnable are pertinent to our enquiry, but would you be able to give us under Clauses 24, 25 and 26 the information which you desire to give and which your experience and your inspection have rendered you capable of giving in connection with this returned soldier problem? — A. I presume that I would, sir. rCol. F. W Mar low 1 168 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— O.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Then I will quote the clauses containing the recommendations and ask you to state what you have to say in respect to them (Beads) : 24. Urgent consideration of the desirability of establishing other large military hospitals in Canada as has boon done in Military District No. 2. Conclusions arrived at would materially affect any recommendations regarding military hospitals as they now exist. Should it transpire that soldiers now overseas should be sent home to Canada in larger numbers and at a much earlier stage of their treatment, the establishment of such hospitals would be essential. They should be situated at strategic points, and would not necessarily be uniform in size. Points which would seem to demand special consideration from their geographical location and for other reasons as well are Halifax, Quebec, Montreal, Toronto, Winni- peg, Edmonton and Vancouver. Pending consideration of this subject, recommendations regarding present military hospitals are withheld, though attention is directed to Appendix No. 3a, Report on Military Hospitals. 25. Close co-operation between the Military Hospitals Commission Com- mand and the Militia Department, and particularly the Army Medical Corps, is urgently required, as the problem of returning soldiers is tremendous. 26. Should the problem be extended to the extent of having to provide large military hospitals to care for invalids requiring active treatment, and not yet in a stage of convalescence, it is nrged that this is a duty for which the Army Medical Corps should be entirely responsible. Pending further inform- ation on the future policy of the Canadian Medical Service Overseas, further recommendations are withheld. A. With respect to paragraph 24 — '' urgent desirability of establishing other large Military Hospitals in Canada, a» has been done in Military District No. 2." The object of that, sir, was, that we had every reason to believe for a long time that a very large number of men requiring active treatment would be returned to Canada, and at the time of my inspection there was no Convalescent Hospital or home under the Mili- tary Hospitals Commission, with the exception of the first large one, the Bishop Strachan School, established in Toronto, where tliere were any facilities for treatment; that is to say, they were at that time simply Homes providing housing and lodging, and a certain amount of vocational training, but no facilities for treatment. In other words there was no provision for treating the cases that needed active treatment. I may state that when we asked for the establishment of a Military Hospital in Toronto we had ;i very large number of men in training, and we naturally believed that when the ninnber of men in training decreased, the hospital ix^pulation with regard to them would decrease, but we also naturally believed that there would be a good many returned men requiring active treatment in hospitals such as would not be provided at the Convalescent Homes. I might refer you, in this connection, to a paragraph which is inserted in the letter from the General Officer Commanding the 2nd District to the Secretary of the Militia Council, dated February 4, 1916, in respect to the hospital accommodation of the 2nd division. I might explain that my letter deals with the reasons for wanting this large hospital. Q. Would you like that letter filed as an exhibit? — A. Yes, sir, I would be glad to file that, but I might call your attention to one paragraph which reads : (Reads) — Further, it will be necessary to provide hospital accommodation for many of the returned invalids who may require more active surgical or medical treatment than will be provided at the Military Convalescent Homes, and until demobiliza- tion is well advanced there will undoubtedly be an urgent need of such a hospital as is proposed. [Col. F. W. Marlow.l RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 169 But the text of the letter is as follows : (Ratients in the hospital will be still further decreased. 8. When authority for establishing the hospital was requested, it was, as stated above, urgently necessary to secure the accommodation it would afford. Besides, it was very naturally considered that as the hospital requirements for men in training decreased there would be a corresponding increase in the hospital requirements for returned invalided soldiers. 9. Such a state now exists, and will soon be much more manifest, but owing to the fact that the Army Medical Corps have not been allowed to control the disposition of returned soldiers needing active hospital treatment, tin.'. 180 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETURy ED SOLDIERS facilities wliicli the building aft'ord are not being used to the greatest advant- age, and unless they are used for returned invalids requiring such active hospital treatment as the convalescent hospitals do not afford, a state will soon be reached where it will scarcely be justifiable to continue the military hospital in the present large buildings, and with the present personnel. 10. Such facilities as the hospital offers, and from two to three hundred of its beds which have been held ready for returned invalids, have not been taken advantage of by the Military Hospitals Commission although that body is fidly aware of their availability. 11. In the meantime, the Convalescent Hospitals under the Commission have been inadequate to meet the demands and there has been a considerable tendency to clogging of the machinery and a consequent delay in the final dis- position and repatriation of the invalids. 12. The Commission prefer to send cases needing active surgical treatment, to the Toronto General Hospital (Civil). 13. For some time past it has been most difficult or impossible to improve the accommodation at the Base Hospital or even to carry out repairs which are urgent and necessary owing to inability to secure authorization for the necessary expenditure. 15. A comprehensive policy in respect to these buildings should be inaugur- ated, and it is recommended as follows : (a) That further necessary expenditure to bring the buildings to a finished state for use as a military hospital and to provide more suitable dining room accommodation than now exists should be authorized. (&) That necessai-y urgent repairs or replacements may be carried on by the Engineer Service without the usual delay incidental to the present policy of awaiting Headquartei-s' authority before proceeding. : (c) That advantage should be taken of the free use of these buildings to the fullest extent possible, and that the Hospital be duly recognized as the JMilitary: Hospital to which the sick and injured amongst those in training should be sent and the institution in which returned invalided soldiers requiring active medica! or surgical treatment such as is not now provided for in the Convalescent Hos pitals should be cared for. (d) Failing the above recommendations being met, the A.M.C. Training Depot should be absorbed by the Base Hospital. A part of the building shoulc be maintained at hospital standard and the remainder as a barracks. In thi case, the Base Hospital should be made a training school for all medical officers; nursing sisters, non-commissioned officers and men of the A.M.C, in this dis trict or any such that might be sent from any other District. (Signed) F. W. AFARLOW, Colonel ' A.D.M.S., M.D. No. 2. These are my further recommendations with regard to that hospital. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Now, Col. Marlow, referring to Appendix ."a. of your report regarding tl, hospitals at Esquimalt, in Military District No. 11, is that hospital still in use?— A. l believe so, but I think Col. Potter has seen that hospital since I saw it, and that perha]j something has been done in respect of it. i Witness retired. Col. Potter Recalled and further examined. By Mr. Pardee: r\ /-^_l •O-ii-.. 1 J!J i1 1 •i.l -i T? : Ij. A T j.l_'-.l_ T RECEPTlOy, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 181 Q. You have been there since Col. Marlow was there ? — A. Yes. Q. You saw Col. Marlow's reiwrt of that hospital as contained in Appendix 3a? (Reads) : Old frame building, in fair state of repair, and cleanly kept. No verandahs, nor balconies. Heating arrangements inadequate even for mild winters. Ivitchen inadequate, and flies abound being hard to exclude. Refrigerator alto- -it'ther too small. Will not even accommodate a day's milk, meat and butter '-upply. No proper storeroom for food supplies. Cellar damp. No proper place for packing stores which are now kept in same room as clean linen, blankets and other supplies though these are on different walls and separated as far as possible in the small room. Floors require attention especially that nf operating room which is cement and covered with a paint which is constantly <-lil)ping off so that strict asepsis is impossible. Small sterilizer for dressing (l(»o< not permit of any pressure. Operating room is not very bright, and a much used road passes immediately under its windows though it is situated on the up.stairs flat. Equipment is scantily fair. The wards are well kept and, considering the condition under which the work is carried on, the hospital would seem to be well managed. It is stated by the staff that the building is infested with rats. Three nursing sisters were recently added to the staff. How much better is that hospital now than since that rejwrt was made? — A. T think that Hospital is now in nnich better condition. Some painting and minor repairs have been done, so that when l^was there the Hospital looked clean and the patients appeared comfortable. Q. Were the heating arrangemc^iits changed'? — A. I did not inquire about the boating arrangements. Q. Were the kitchen arrnngements changed? — A. I did not see the kitchen accom- modation before, but at the time I did, the arrangements were fairly good. Q. Was the refrigerating apparatus in order? — A. I did not see it before. Q. In what condition was the refrigeration accommodation when you did get there ? — A. As far as I recollect, I did not report on the refrigeration especially ; the kitchen looketl fairly adequate to meet the existing need. B,j Mr. MidcUehro: Q. Did you receive any comi)l:iint? — A. I did not receive any complaint. The building is an old one and as a hospital should be done away with if possible, but it meets the needs of minor cases. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Only minor cases should be sent tliere ? — A. Yes, sir. A new hospital, which should be fitted up by now. called the Irving Hospital, has been provided, and we are sending all our serious cases to the civil hospitals, of wliich there are two. We use the hospital in question as little as possible. i). How many patients does that Esquimalt hospital acconnnodate? Colonel Marlow : I think the actual number is 19 or 20 patients. Colonel Potter : It is a very old building, it was there before the war, and we simply use it as a makeshift. A new hospital will have to be built there some day. The estimate of exi)enditure for the new building, however, was very high, and it was not found possible to build it this year. Witness retired. 182 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—R ETURy ED SOLDIERS Tlic examination bi Colonel Marlow resumed. By Ml'. Pardee: Q. You say in dealinn witli the Military Hospitals" acconunodation : — It will be noted that with the exception of M. D. No. 2 and Xo, 6, there is very little accommodation available in the Military Hospitals. In No. 2 the accommodation is considered adequate, while in No. 6, on account of its two important embarkation or disembarkation points, namely, Halifax and St, John, where troops are frequently ' held over,' the accommodation is scarcely adequate. A. In Appendix No. 3 I show the approximate number of beds in both of these dist^ict^. and it will be noted, in comparison, that in some districts there are none. Q. I notice that. — A. In other districts the number is very small. I may say thai west of Military District No. 2, or rather, between that district and the Pacific, at the time I made my inspection there were not more than about 60 or TO beds, whereas east of there, there were upwards of perhaps 500. Q. Do you not think that at this stage of the war, when there are a large number of troops disembarking at Halifax" and St. John, there should be sufficient hospital accommodation at those two points? — A. I do, sir. I think that at the disembarka- tion points the accommodation should be adequate. Q. The accommodation should be very adequate? — A. It is very important, sir. that the accommodation should be adequate. Q. Can you tell us whether that inadequacy has been remedied or not? — A. I believe, sir, that no action has been taken by the ]\Iilitia Department in respect to tha't. Doubtless Colonel Potter could tell you positively. I understand, however, that the Military Hospitals Commission have undertaken to provide accommodation at the points of disembarkation. Q. And has that organization provided sufficient accommodation, do you know? — A. I cannot state that positively. Q. Who could tell us that? — A. I suppose Colonel Thompson would be the proper officer to speak as to that. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. I suppose that as a matter of evolution you are improving the Military Hos- pitals accommodation as the war progresses? — A. As far as the area is concerned, for which I am responsible, I have been trying to keep ahead of the needs. Q. And so far as your district is concerned, you have been improving the condi- tions from the commencement down to the present time? — A. Yes. Q. And up to the time you made your report in October, 1916, so far as you know, there were no returned soldiers who could not, or did not, get hospital accommodation in Toronto or in your district? [n other words, there were no returned soldiers wlm were not provided with accommodation up to the time you made your report? — A. At the time I made my report ? Q. Yes. There were no returned soldiers who were not accommodated either in the hospitals which were provided by the Military Hospitals Commission, or in the Military Hospitals proper? — A. At that time, I may say, there were probably a large number of '' out " patients. You see when these central Convalescent Hospitals were established, in many cases they were inadequate to accommodate all the returned men, so that an " out " patient system was adopted whereby men did not live in the hospita/ but reported there for examination. Q. And that is still the case? — A. That is still the case. But it was decided t have a different policy and under this, as far as the accommodation would provide, t^ make the men " in " patients and have only exceptional '' out " patients, because it wa; considered that the men, being under close observation, usually progressed faster thai RECEPTION', TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 183 if allowed to remain at their homes; but the hospital accommodation was not suffi- cient, either at that time or at any time since, to allow all the men to be retained as " in " patients. Q. How many men could not bo treated indoors because of lack of accommodation? — A. I cannot answer that question because that work has largely boon carried on under the Hospitals Commission. Q. Do you know whether it was because the returned soldiers could not get accom- modation indoors in the hospitals that they were made what you might call " out " patients, or was that course adopted as a matter of policy? — A. It would be really necessary to go back to the various stages in the development of the solution of this problem in order to answer your (juestion intelligently. Q. My question simply is this : was it a matter of policy to have the men at their own homes, or was it because there was not sufficient accommodation for them in the hospitals? — A. At first it was partly a question of policy, but later on it was not a question of policy, but was due to lack of accommodation. Q. As I understand from the evidence given by Doctor Thompson, your report was made largely in consideration of the numbers of soldiers who wei*e expected to be coming over. It was in anticipation of those large numbers that you reported there was not sufficient accommodation, that is right, is it not? — A. That is right, but at the same time, at the time I made my report, there wei-e a considerable number of " out " patients, I cannot say how many. Q. And you cannot say they were " out " patients, because of a policy adopted in that regard, or because of insufficient indoor accommodation. — A. I can only say with respect to number 2 district where our Homes have been larger than in any other district, that when the first central military convalescent hospital was opened up in November, 1915, that we had to treat a very considerable number of men as "out" patients because of lack of accommodation. Q. And they would be men who were slightly indisposed? — A. Yes. At that time we had developed a regular " out '" patient system, but immediately, on my recommen- dation, the Hospitals Commission set about to get further accommodation. With that object in view old Knox College was secured, and they Set about putting it into shape. Hy the time that was ready, and even before that, I issued an order to my medical officers to gather up all the available " out " patients they had accommodation for and to bring them in, because I considered the " out " patient system was not working satisfactorily because of the difficulty of keeping in close touch with the men and not knowing what they were doing while they were out of the Homes. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Are you referring now to returned soldiers? — A. Yes, to returned soldiers entirely. Q. I understood you to say they were not under your connnand but under the command of the Military Hospitals Connnissiou. — A. But up to that time, and even up to this time, we have never been relieved of the responsibility of looking after these men, although they have, in a way, been under the Hospitals Coimuissiou Command. You will understand that what I have spoken about up to the present time was prior to the time the Commission Command was formed. The Commission Command was not formed until June, 191G. Trior to that time they were entirely under our control; there was then no division of responsibility in the matter. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. What I mean by my recent questions to you is this: by a process of evolution, it was found necessary to have a Military Hospitals Commission. Such a Commission was established, under which these soldiers were really enlisted men under the control of the Deparlment. rCol. F. W. Marlow.l 184 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Hon. Mr. Mukimiv: That is ]U)t what Colonel Marlow says. The Witness: With respect to the establishment of tlie Military Hospitals Com- mission Commandi^ I am not prepared to admit that. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. At any rate the Government did that!! — A. It was done by Order in Council. Q. From that time on, as far as you know, hospital accommodation has been provided from time to time by the Military Hospitals Commission for the soldiers^ — A. I direct your attention to the fact that the Bulletin issued in June, 1916, shows certain accommodation. At the time of my inspection and report, three or four months later, no additional accommodation had been added with the exception of a small place in St. Catharines, which was Opened and which we, I may say, did not recommend should be opened. Q. Are you in a position to say definitely that there was not sufficient accommoda- tion provided by the Military Hospitals Commission for the actual cases in Canada at the time you made your report?— A. Yes, I would say that there was not sufficient accommodation for the men in Canada at that time to treat them as " in " patients. Q. I am speaking- now of returned soldiers. — A. And I am referring to returned soldiers. Q. To what extent do you think there was no accommodation?^ — A. Without the figures before me it would be very difficult for me to say that, but in Military District No. 6 the great majority of the men returning at that time were "out" patients, they were scattered all over the district. Q. Where is No. C? — A. In the Eastern Provinces. Q. You mean the Maritime Provinces? — A. Yes. We also had a considerable number of " out " patients in our district and that was the case throughout the ^yhole of Canada — there was a considerable number of '^out" patients. Q. About what number was there in District No. 2? — A. I regret that I cannot give you the figures. Q. You spoke of 20 as the number that had been sent to civil hospitals? — A. I stated that at times there were probably as many as 20 returned invalids in civil hospitals at one time under active treatment. I did not refer to any particular time, but I say there have been at times as many as that number undergoing active treat- ment. Q. Would you agree with this statement by Colonel Thompson, to be found at page 57 of the printed evidence? — ^(Reads) : " Q. Is there in your opinion sufficient accommodation at the present time for Canadian wounded soldiers? — A. In Canada? Q. Yes, if they should come back, or have come back? — A. We have ample accommodation for any active treatment cases when they come back. We have about 3,000 beds ready in Canada now for these active treatment cases, regard- ing which I have been attempting to tell you. We have ample accommodation for tubercular soldiers, of whom we have some seven hundred in our hospitals, and we have made arrangements for a number of beds to take care of almost any influx that may come." Do you contradict that statement of Colonel Thompson's evidence in which he says they have ample accommodation for all returned soldiers in Canada requiring active treatment? — A. I am not acquainted with what arrang'ements they have made for active treatment cases in other districts. Q. I refer now to page 58 of Colonel Thompson's evidence in which he was asked the following question: — " Q. I am just talking about the convalescents that should come over, not the men who are so seriously injured that they cannot be moved. If these were RECEPTIOX. TREATMENT AXD RE-EDUCATION 185 to eonie back now at the rate they have been coming would there be sufficient aceoimnodation at the present time? — A. There would be for the active treat- ment cases and the tuberculars, but we might be short on convalescents, because they were being sent back very rapidly. Q. Do you hope to have sufficient now ? — A. Absolutely. Tlicn below on the same page: — " Q. I want to be quite fair with you and the committee. I have a news- paper article here which apparently emanates from Dr. Marlow, but as to that I cannot say. However, the article says: 'Thousands of disabled Canadian soldiers who are unfit for further service at the front, but who have sufficiently recovered from their wounds to permit of their return to Canada are being detained in Britain because the Military Hospitals Commission of Canada has failed to provide the necessary accommodation in the Dominion for the care of the wounded, and because adequate arrangements have not been made for the return of these men to civil life.' I want you to make it clear to the committee to what extent that statement is true, because the public have a right to know the facts? — A. The statement is not at all true. We have arrangements on foot for the provision of 10,000 beds in Canada at this time. We have been in constant communication with Sir George Perley, and from time to time have been making preparations to furnish beds for these men when they return. Of course, you understand that a hospital is not like Jonah's gourd, it does not grow up over night. It takes time to provide the necessary accommodation. " Q. I understand. All I am trying to do is to ascertain what is true and what is not. — A. The answer is this: never at any time have we been short of beoar necessary at present." Do you concur in that?— A. I suppose that Colonel Potter had in mind at that time returned soldiers, and that they would he cared for by the Military Hospitals Com- mission, and not by the Army Medical Service. I fancy that if Colonel Potter thought that the Army Medical Service would have to look after the returned men he probably would have advocated something different with regard to military hospitals. Q. He does. He says (reads) : — " H, however, the medical services are called upon to assist in caring for returned invalid soldiers, then there is necessity for immediate action. This has previously been reported upon by the A.D.G.^f.S." Do you concur in that ? — A. Yes. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. You were speaking of November, 1916, I presume, when you referred to the .3,000 soldiers being in England who might be returned to Canada. I have heard of that complaint in my own district, of men wanting to come back to Canada. Do you know, as a matter of fact, that the Militia Department prevented these men from coming back to Canada, on account of the lack of accommodation for their treatment here?— A. You said the "Militia Department?" Q. Well, it might. not be the ]\Iilitia Department, but they were prevented in any case by some authority. — A. I have reason to believe that the Military Hospitals Com- mission did, to a considerable extent, control the rate at which the men were sent home. Q. Why did they do so? — A. Do you want to know my reasons for saying so? Q. Yes. Why did they control or limit it? — A. I might say that I was in close touch with the Hosspitals Conmiission, following my report, and also with the "Militia Department, and it was the general consensus of opinion that there was not sufficient accommodation to handle these men at the rate it had been suggested they should be sent home. Q. Suggested by whom? — A. By the overseas authorities, I presume. Q. And the authorities on this side said not to send them, because they had not ncconmiodation ?— A. I would not make that as a definite statement, but I think probably I could suggest where the information in that regard might be obtained. 188 SPEOIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.-RETUR:\'ED SOLDIERS Q. Where? Because we want to know i; — A. fn answering, 1 would like it to U understood that I have been in very close touch witli the Military Hospitals Commis- sion, also the ^filitia Department, in respect of this Avhole subject, and in answer in that question I might suggest that if any definite information in regard to that matter is desired by the committee, that it might be well to ask for cables whicli passed between the Government and Sir George Perley with respect to the return of invalids during the month of November, 1916, when this problem was acute. 1 was in close touch with all the officials of the Hospitals Commission at this time, and was fully informed of the action that was being taken on the whole problem, and if the committee wish definite information on this matter, I stated that they might secure it by getting copies of the cablegrams which passed between Sir Eobert Borden and Sir George Perley with respect to the return of those invalids. By the Chairman: Q. As to how many there were and how rapidly they sliould be brought back? — A. Yes. The Chairman: Perhaps the Government could furnish that information. Sir Edward Kemp: I could not speak for the Prime Minister. He has tremendous responsibility in this regard. You could cable Sir Bobert Borden if you thought it was of sufficient importance. Hon. Mr. Murphy : Col. Marlow said these cables were sent by the Government to Sir George Perley — not necessarily by Sir Robert. Witness: I merely state these matters because in the evidence given by Col. Thompson there are certain things with which my name is very closely connected, to which I take exception, and, as I have stated, I have been always in close touch with the officials of the Hospitals Commission, ever "since the inception of this problem, and I am acquainted with the nature — not the exact nature, but with the probable nature — of the communications that passed with respect to the rate at which ihes*- men should be sent home, as to whether the accommodation existed or not. I cannot say what the character of the information is, because I do not know definitely myself, but I would suggest it might be well, if you want information on that subject, to refer to those communications. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Not necessarily coming from Sir Robert Borden personally, but from th.^ Government? — A. I mean comniuniqations that passed on the subject of returnmg these men, following the report that there were some thousands of men to be sent home. Q. Not necessarily from Sir Robert? — A. No; connnunications that will. 1 think. supply the information. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. You have said: "Not necessarily from Sir Robert"? — A. I mean the official channel of communication. Q. Anyway they were sent to Sir George Perley? — A. I should think the official way would be from Sir Robert Borden to Sir George Perley. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. And if that is not the way ? — A. It may be from the Chairman of the Hospitals Commission ; I mean communications with respect to that particular subject. By the Chairman: Q. In other words, you believe that communications passed between England and Canada, intimating the rate at which men should be sent back here, and that that RECEPTIOX, TREATMEyr AND RE-EDUCATION 189 nitc was governed by the amount of acconiinodation that wa:^ ready for them, and your inference is ? — A. I will change the wording of that and say I have reason to believe that communications passed with respect to the rate at which the men should be sent home. Q. And you believe that if there had been ample accommodation here they would ha\e l)e(-u sent home in larger numbers than they have been? — A, Yes, I believe they would have been. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. Do you believe the conununicatious resulted because of the change of policy of Great Britain to send active cases home to Canada to be treated, instead of treating the active cases in Great Britain? — A. Possibly so, but I presume the overseas authori- ties had always been in touch with the authorities here, that communications have been passing from time to time with respect to this subject all along, but at this particular time that has been mentioned, it was reported that the overseas ix)licy would likely be changed in that respect, that the men would be sent home in greater numbers, but the source of the report was actually the report on the medical services overseas, and, as I have stated, the Babtie report stated that they were not sent home because it was understood there was lack of accommodation for them. Q. If the Government over there changed their policy so as to send over three or four times as many as they have sent, would you attribute any neglect to the Hospitals Commission, after a radical change of that kind^ ? — A. I would not attribute any neglect, but I would venture as my opinion that the accommodation provided by the Hospitals Commission has always been a little behind rather than anticipating the actual needs; I think it has been somewhat deficient. Q. That is your opinion; on the other hand, we have the evidence of Dr. Thomp- son ? — A. Yes, but you understand this evidence has been given on February 22 ; after there has been a great rush to secure accommodation. Q. Because of the change of policy of Great Britain, and, as a matter of fact, you know those cases have not been sent out as they would have been, because of the submarine menace? (No answer.) The CHAimr AN : We are going to have Mr. Scammell before us. This matter was in the hands of the Hospitals Commission, and probably we can get this information from Mr. Scammell. Hon. Mr. Murphy : If we get those cables, we would not require to examine any further witnesses. The Chairman : All we can do is to ask the Government if they will be good enough to furnish us with such cables as may have been sent. Witness: I am merely suggesting where you can get the information. Hon. Mr. Murphy: That request will be made. The Chairman: Yes. By lion. Mr. Murphy: Q. You have just referred to some portions of Colonel Thompson's evidence to which you took exception; would you indicate what these are? — A. I take exception to this statement where he says: "This newspaper report apparently emanat.os from Dr. Marlow." Q. I do not think that was Dr. Thompson's statement. I think that was a question tlMit was asked Dr. Thompseing put in that way. Q. ^^^lat else do you take exception to? — A. Further up ou page .">>>, Colonel riiompson states, in reply to a question "In your work you are thrown in contact with a Colonel Marlow? You have read the st-atements be has made''? And Dr. Thompson 190 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS answers ''I know Iiini, I have read some of his statements." I take exception to both the question and the answer. Bij the Chairman: Q. What is wrong with the question? — ^A. The question is "You have read tbe statements he has made '' ? Where are those statements I have made ? Colonel Thomp- son says " I have read some of his statements ''. That is to say, they have suggested that I was responsible for all these newspaper reports. Q. And that is not the fact? — A. No, that is not the fact. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Is there anything else you tal^e exception to ? — A. The question is " You have read the statements he has made " ? And the answer " I know him ; I have read some of his statements ". I take exception to that. Q. Is there any'tliing else to which you take exception? — A. Well, I am sorry to say that I did not get this copy until just before I began to give evidence. Q. You can read it over during adjournment? — A. Yes. Witness retired. Committee adjourned. The Committee resumed at 2.00 p.m. The examination of Colonel F. W. Marlow resumed. The Chairman: Is there anything further the Coinmittee want to ask Colonel jMarlow with reference to Recommendation No. 24. The Witness: Pardon me. I think when we left off at noon that some one was asking me with regard to exceptions I might have to statements made in the evidence of Colonel Thompson. I have had an opportunity of looking over his evidence a little hit further, and I would like to draw your attention to pages 59 and 61 to the questions put by Brigadier-General Mason. By the Chairman: Q. If you have any exception to take to the evidence of Colonel Thompson where it relates to you, you are certainly at liberty to do it ? — A. These questions and answers are with regard to the conditions in District No. 2, the relation between the Army Medical Corps and the Hospitals Commission. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. What have you to say about that? — A. Brigadier-General Mason asked (reads) : — Q. Why was the distinction made in the case of the Toronto District ; Other districts were furnished with medical oflicers by the Hospitals Com- mission, Colonel ^yiarlow himself speaks of it. The statement is made tliat the Army ]\redical Corps furnishes officei-s for the Hospitals Commission? — A. Yes. Q. Except in the case of the 2nd District? — A. I did not make myself clear on that point. Generally speaking they do furnish the oflicers, but in sonic instances they did not. 1 Q. Not in No. 2 District. They did not second the Doctors that wen' attending those hospitals, I wonder why? — A. The answer we got was that tli resign. They have to resign from the Army Medical Corps before they can be appointed under the arrangement. Q. Yet there are lots of men eminent in the profession who are not in the Army Medical Corps? — A. I suppose there are a good many, but in Toronto the major- ity of the best men are in the Army Medical Corps and they have come on since the war began. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. There are frequent references to the officers. Have you anything to say about their status, or their treatment or accommodation for officers who may be wounded, or anything on that score? — A. Well, I may say that there has been a good deal of difficulty in respect of the officers. In the Order in Council creating the com- mission I think officers are named with non-conunissioned officers and men, but up to the present time the Hospitals Commission have made practically no arrangement for officers. 202 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. Tluit is soldiers returned, wounded, from the front? — A. Yes, but I may say in respect of that, that officers have been returned under different conditions, gener- ally speaking: The officers have seldoin been invalided back the way non-commissioned officers and men are, but they have simply been given leave to return to Canada for further medical treatment, and as they are only home on leave, whether it be sick leave, or something else, they do not come \inder the Hospitals Commissiijn, but rather they come under the administrative officers of the various districts, so that it has been necessary for the Army Medical Corps, or the administrative medical officers of the district to make the necessary arrangements for the officers: so that that has given rise to a considerable amount of difficulty, and it so happens that adequate arrangements for officers have not been made either by the Army. Medical Corps, or by the Hospital Commission. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex): Q. They look after . themselves, apparently? — A. V'ell, they are not able to look after themselves, in this way : that officers home on sick leave are only granted a subsistence allowance of $1.50 a day, which is absolutely insufficient, if they require hospital treatment, to pay for their hospital maintenance and medical attendance. Q. Does their pay not continue? — A. Their pay continues, but I mean their sub- sistence allowance. In England, for instance, while. they are in the hospital their pay continues, and they are not subjected to any expense in the way of hospital mainten- ance, but when they return here they frequently are, because of the lack of adequate provision for them. It is true, if there is no room in the Military Hospital, or a Mili- tary Hospital is not available, and an officer is sent to the civil hospital, it is true we can probably get his hospital maintenance authorized, and special nursing may bs authorized if required. If he is in the hospital at Government expense, he will not draw his subsistence allowance at that time. We can probably get the accounts author- ized, but every case has to be considered by itself, and it means a whole lot of corres- pondence: accounts are frequently sent on and sent back; that is to say, there is no definite hospital rate of maintenance fixed. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Do I understand you to say no provision has been made for officers of that class by the Military Hospitals Commission — returned wounded officers ? — A. None h\ the Military Ilospitals' Commission. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. They should be entitled to the same consideration as the men, should they not '. — A. I think sick officers are entitled to it and should not be put to expense to get it. Q. Are they not further entitled to take advantage of the same arrangements as made for the men and N.C.Os. ? — A. There is no accommodation for them. Where there is a military hospital they may go in and be looked after free, but where there is not a military hospital they have to go into the civil hospital. By the Chairman: Q. At the expense of the city? — A. Frequently at the expense of themselves, because it is a difficult matter to get their expenses authorized in some cases. Each case has to be taken up separately. I recently took steps to see if anything could be done towards getting a flat rate which might apply throughout the whole of Canada and I have found that in my own district, number 2, practically all the general hospi- tals there would be willing to accept a flat rate of $3.50 per day for ])rivate wards for the officers' maintenance. I fancy that might be extended to apply throughout the whole of Canada and probably would make a very good arrangement. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 203 By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Ycu spoke in rather a disparaging way of the hospital at St. Catharines : what is wrong there? — A. There is a small hospital at St. Catharines which was opened up by the Hospitals Commission. It has been used very little. It is very difficult to get an efficient medical staflf there. Q. There is one there, is there not? — A. I really cannot tell you what sort, of staff is. there at present, but the place was opened up distinctly against our recom- mendations in the matter: in fact, I recommended it should not be opened up at the ♦irae it was opened up. They insisted it should be opened. Q. Why should it not be opened ? — A. Because it was not necessary. We did not need a hospital in the place. That was the main reason. At the time they wanted it opened there was only one returned soldier in the whole Niagara Distriot, and the com- munication was sent to the General Officer Commanding in respect of opening it, and he referred the matter to me, and we advised very strongly against opening it, as wo did not consider it necessary, and telegrams passed between the office and headquarters with regard to it, but they insisted it should be opened: in fact the General Officer Commanding advised against opening it. They ceased to correspond with him and opened it themselves, and it has been maintained practically with no patients in it. At the present time I think there are thirteen.. -i. With a whole staff? — A. Not much of a staff: a housekeeper Q. And doctor? — A. No doctor there; any medical attendance is done by a doctor simply calling in; but it is another one of those small homes a long distance from the main centre which has proven to be very little use, because the idea is to get away from the small outlying places which do not provide any facilities for treatment. By Hon. Mr. Murphy : Q. When you say they opened it themselves contrary to the advice of some one — whom do you mean? — A. The Military Hospitals Commission, distinctly against the advice of the Officer Commanding; he stated that it was not necessary. By Mr. Pardee: Q. On page 5 you say: — " A great many medically unfit men were enlisted during the past year, and many of them were carried on the strength for several months. Careless examination by medical officers or civilian practitioners,^ undue pressure on the part of commanding or recruiting officers anxious to increase the number of their units, attestation without further medical examination, and retention of men at small billets were the chief features responsible for this." Have you any idea how many men have gone overseas who were unfit and are returned, or are still in England, having been rejected ? — A. I am afraid I have not looked up the figures. Q. I am going to read an. extract from Toronto Saturday Night, February 3, .vhich reads as follows : — "According to Sir Robert Borden's figures, given out the other day in the House, Canada has actually sent 310,000 men overseas. But he does not tell lis how many of this number were eventually turned down in England as being medically unfit. We are creditably informed that the number is astonishingly large, running into thousands. Nor are we told how many of this 310,000 have been, and still are, occupying safety first jobs in the Canadian Records office and in the whatnot of semi-military life in London. A short time ago there were somewhero around 4,0*- able to discover flat feet. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. How can you possibly account for such a state of affairs as existed in the 118th Battalion? — A. With respect to flat feet it is possible that in a considerable number of those who are finally rejected for flat feet the condition may have been exaggerated somewhat dnrinc tVioir l.-inn- i-i^^i-inrl n-f tfTiiiino- T mnv cn\- tlnnt nt tlir^ timP tVlis hflt- 208 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— V.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS talion was organized the regulations in respect to flat feet were not as rigidly followed out as they have been at a later date. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Is there any difference of opinion in the medical profession as to the service- ability of men with flat feet? — A. There is a very great difference of opinion, and per- sonally I am inclined to believe too much stress has been put upon the effects of flat feet. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. The regulations forbid men with flat feet being enlisted? — A. Yes, for general service in the infantry. Flat feet cases are admitted to some other units. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. What, for instance, are those other units?— A. The forestry and construction battalions,- if the degree is moderate. Q. Are men with flat feet as good as able-bodied men for these battalions?— A. Just as good. You see, complaints regarding flat feet have been so numerous from the overseas authorities. Mind you, so much stress has been put upon the effect of flat feet that there is a certain proportion of men who recognize in flat feet a cause for funking. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. They pretend that they have flat feet ?— A. They may pretend they have trouble with their flat feet, and no medical officer can tell from the contour of the foot what trouble the man is having. He cannot tell by the contour of the feet. If the man says he has a pain and is suffering from that you cannot controvert his statement. By the Chairman: Q. I suppose it is possible for a man to enlist and pass the medical board with the declaration that he has never had any trouble in his life? — A. Certainly. Q. He may enter the service and then five months afterwards claim that he has flat feet and cannot walk upon them ? — A. I may say in respect to the majority of these men rejected or held back that they were not finally rejected, but transferred to other imits later. At any rate the majority of the men so held back on account of flat feet have been able to route march during their period of training, which extended over a year, practically, and most of them have never fallen out on route marches covering a dis- tance of fifteen to eighteen and twenty miles. Q. To what extent does the recommendation that the man be released from military service affect the judgment of an examining board of that kind? — A. In that instance, I>raetically none at all. You see this medical board held these men back for further examination, they did not actually reject them but held them back, and after further examination they were classified and the majority of them transferred to other units, such as the construction battalion. A certain number were discharged, but only those who were considered to be medically unfit for any branch of the service. Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. But this report says (reads) : — ''Fit for general service, 18; fit for construction battalion, 81; fit for special service, 68; fit for Army Medical Corps, 1; fit for discharge, 45; for hospital observation, 10; for reconsideration, 10; sick at home and not re-boarded, 2; absentees not re-boarded, 3. That is the whole list and it makes a total of 238. Take valvular disease of the heart. No medical officer could mistake that, could he? — A. Yes, he could. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Although a condidate for enlistment admits that he has flat feet, if he says they never bother him he can be enlisted. After his enlistment, if he says his flat RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 209 feet bother him, he can obtain his discharge? — A. I presume that is the reason the authorities overseas have become so strict in the matter. The main reason why so many of these men were kept behind was because of the strict interpretation of the medical regulations by the Medical Examining Board. That is to say, they had no respect for the cases of flat feet, they did not use their own judgment in the matter as to whether they thought those men were fit for service or not, but they adhered lo the regulations. Many of these men had been boarded at Kitchener before going into camp and they had been boarded again at Camp Borden where an inquiry was made into their history as to how they had been standing up. A man comes along with a moderate degree of flat feet, and the Board enquii'es into how he has done when out route marching. If he has done well, the Medical Oflicer feels disposed to let him remain instead of turning him down. At that time there were no other units into which he could go. If a man wore turned down then he was forbidden the* service entirely. Consequently, that was the reason wliy those men were kept until so late a date. Then on account of the numerous reports from overseas and the orders sent out from headquarters, the Medical Board adhered absolutely to the letter of the regulations, consequently a greater number of men are kept back. By the Chairman: Qi The word that came from England resulted in the medical inspection, par- ticularly in the matter of flat feet, becoming very much stricter in the fall of 1916, did it not? — A. Yes. There were different orders sent out from Headquarters, some being special orders with respect to flat feet. Q. So the boarding of recruits in the latter part of the fall of 1916 was much more severe than at an earlier period ? — ^A. Yes, sir, I would say so. (J. At the present time, I understand, you will correct me if I am wrong in my understanding, the Government are endeavouring to follow as closely as possible the practice of having the recruit medically examined at the place where he first presents himself? — A. Yes, sir. Q. First, there is the preliminary medical exarjiination of the recruit by the local examiner. The recruit is then sent to the nearest " Mobilization Center ", there to be examined by a Medical Examining Board. He then, if fit, may report to his unit, riie recruit is again examined on arrival by the Medical Officer of the unit to which he is assigned. Only after he has passed this triple examination is clothing or equip- ment issued to him, is that correct? — A. Yes, sir, at the present time. Q. And the Mobilization Boards are to be found at most of the principal points throughout Canada? — A. I believe at the present time they are organized throughout the most of Canada. Q. J)o you think this new system will have the desired effect of preventing the enlistment of unfit men who would be subsequently rejected in England? — A. It depends largely on how the system is carried out. Unless the recruiting and the attestation and administrative end of it is carried out thoroughly, the system will fall down. Q. Have you not confidence in the Army Medical Corps that these safeguards will be carried out? — A. It is not in respect to the medical examination. I may say we wore rather slow in putting these into effect in ^Military District No. 2 on account of certain diffieulties there, but since it has gone into effect very definite arrange- ments in the matter of attestations were made, and other arrangements also. For instance, the order as sent out from Headquarters, in regard to mobilization centres, is not clear as to where the man shall be attested. What has happened in some places was that the man was sent up to the mobilization centre for ro-examination only. Then he was returned to his unit with the statement either that he was fit or unfit ; and it has happened that he was attested by his unit whether he was fit or unfit. Wlint has been done with Military district No. 2 in connection with those mobiliza- tion centres is that the Assistant Adjutant General has issued an order that no man 2:0 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNER SOLDIERS shall be attested into any unit except at these mobilization centres for re-examination. That is to say, the men go there for re-examination and attestation, and no man can be attested anywhere else in the district except at these three places. By the Chairman: Q. Further than that, the attestation paper has had added to it several pre- cautionary questions in addition to those that were in the original. Is not that the case? — A. I am not prepared to answer that, because I have not seen the attestation paper recently. Q. The questions to which I refer are printed in red on the side of the paper? — A. It was suggested some time ago that some additional questions should be added, but I have not seen the document since. The Chairman :' I may say as a fact that three questions have been added to the attestation paper, I will now file a copy of the attestation paper to go on the. record. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 211 ATTESTATION PAPER. ^°- Folio CANADIAN OVERSEAS EXPEDITIONARY FORCE. QUESTIONS TO BE PUT BEFORE ATTESTATION. (ANSWERS.) 1. What is your surname ? la. What are your Christian names ? lb. What is your present address ? 2. In what Town, Township or Parish, and in what Country were you born? 3. What is the name of your next-of-kin ? 4. What is the address of your next-of-kin ? 4a. What is the relationship of your next-of-kin ? 5. What is the date of your birth ? 6. What is your Trade or Calling ? 7. Are you married ? 8. Are you willing to be vaccinated or re-vaccinated and inoculated ? 9. Do you now belong to the Active Militia ? 10. Have you ever served in any Military Force ? If so, state particulars of former service. 11. Do you understand the nature and terms of your engagement? 12. Are you willing to be attested to serve in the Canadian Overseas Expeditionary Force ? 13. Have you ever been discharged from any Branch of His Majesty's Forqes as medically unfit ? 14. If so, what was the nature of the disability ? 15. Have you ever offered to serve in any Branch of Ilis Majesty's Forces and been rejected ? 16. If so, what was the reason ? DECLAEATION TO BE MADE BY MAN ON ATTESTATION. I, , do solemnly declare that the above are answers made by me to the above questions and that they are true, and that I am willing to fulfil the engagements by me now made, and I hereby engage and agree to serve in the Canadian Overseas Expeditionary Force, and to be attached to any arm of the service therein, for the term of one year, or during the war now existing between Great Britain and Germany should that war last longer than one year, and for six months after the termination of that war provided His Majesty should so long require my services, or until legally discharged. (Signature of Eecruit.) Date 191 (Signature of Witness) OATH TO BE TAKEN BY MAN ON ATTESTATION. 1, , do make Oath, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King George the Fifth, His Heirs and Successors. and that I will as in duty bound honestly and faithfully defend His Majesty, His Heirs and Successors, in Person, Crown and Dignity, against all enemies, and will observe and obey all orders of His Majesty, His Heirs and Successors, and of all the Generals and Officers set over me. So help me God. (Signature of Recruit.) Date ,191 (Signature of Witness) 212 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.- t -RETURNED SOLDIERS CERTIFICATE OF MAGISTRATE. The Recruit above-named was cautioned by me that if be made any false answer to any of the above questions he would be liable to be punished as provi'ded in the Army Act. The above questions were then read to the Recruit in my presence. I have taken care that he understands each question, and that his answer to each question has been duly entered as replied to, and the said Recruit has made and signed the declaration and taken the oath before me, at this day of , 191... (Signature of Justice) N.B. — Attention is drawn to the fact that any person mahing a false answer to avi of the above questions is liahle to a penalty of six months' imprisonment. DESCRIPTION OF ON ENLISTMENT. Apparent Age years months. (To be determined according to the instructions given in the Regulations for Away Medical Services.) Height /■Girth when fully ex « !5 *> I panded ^ OS ® "I ^ I 2 Range of I, expansii Complexion. Eye: Hair f Church of England I Presbyterian . i Methodist a O -2 I I Baptist or Congregationalist. |i '^ S Roman Catholic Jewish . I Other denominations L{ Denomination to be stated.) Distinctive marks, and marks indicating con- genital peculiarities or previous disease. (Should the Medical Officer be of opinion that the recruit has served before, he will, unless the man acknowledges to any previous ser- vice, attach a slip to that etfect, for the in- formation of the Approving Officer.) RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 213 CEKTIFICATE OF MEDICAL EXAMINATION. I have examined the above-named Recruit and find that he does not present any of the causes of rejection specified in the Regulations for Army Medical Services. He can see at the required distance with either eye; his heart and lungs are healthy; he has the free use of his joints and limbs, and he declares that he is not subject to fits of any description. I consider him* for the Canadian Overseas Expeditionary Force. Date , 191 Place « Insert here " fit " or " unfit." Note. — Should the Medical Officer consider the recruit unfit, he will fill in the foregoing certificate only in the case of those who have been attested, and will briefly state below the cause of unfitness : — CERTIFICATE OF OFFICER COMMANDING UNIT. having been finally approved and inspected by me this day, and his Name, Age, Date of Attestation, and every pre- scribed particular having been recorded, I certify that I am satisfied with the correct- ness of this Attestation. (Signature of Officer) Date , 191... By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Then new instructions have been issued from the Adjutant General's Depart- ment since the war began in place of the old system which operated so disastrously in the case of the 118th Regiment?— A. In the early stage of the war a second medical examination was required. Afterwards that second examination was removed. Now it is reimposed in a move rigorous form. * Q. When was the first system changed?— A. I think in the fall of 1915, as I stated before. Q. In the fall of 1915, and September, 1916, a new system was adopted all over Canada? — A. Yes, but you understand there are many other considerations. In explain- ing a wastage of that kind, there are general considerations, and particularly in respect to that battalion, the 118th. Of course, I believe on account of the length of time that the battalion, under this system, was retained here in training there was naturally a very considerable wastage. Another cause of wastage in the case of men benig rejected on arrival overseas is tlie fact that they continue to enlist " new " men mto "old" battalions up till the time they leave this country. These young men have no chance to get proper physical training and they will fall down as a result. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Do you have any difficulty because of men who are cither under or over age enlisting?— A. A groat many men have been enlisted who are either over or under age. Q. What do the papers call for with respect to age, an ' affidavit ?— A. No, they are attested within the proper age limit; of course, that is a case of false attestation on the part of the man. 214 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Does that not account for a considerable percentage of men who are after- wards found unfit for service? Is not that the explanation of it? — A. There are a good many men rejected because of being either under or over age. By the Chairman: Q. What are the conditions with respect to the enlistment in special service battalions? — A. These men are used to supply various details throughout the camps and at headquarters. Q. What do they do in winter?— A. For instance, at the present time, at Toronto, the special service unit has been detailed for duties such as fixing up a great many of the buildings which have to be heated ; the fires have to be kept going, and police duties have to be performed. Q. What kind of police duties? — A. About the camp. Q. But there is no camp now? — A. There is a camp at Toronto, the exhibition camp; there is also a camp at Hamilton. There are all sorts of special duties for these special service men, otherwise men of the regular units would have to be taken from their training, from their regular duties, in order to perform those duties which the special service unit is called upon to do. Q. How many men, for instance, are there in No. 2 District in special service companies? — A. I ain sorry I cannot tell you how many there are. Q. In your opinion, how many of these men are only temporarily unfit and expect to be transferred overseas? — A. I would say that the vast majority of them are not fit for overseas, and will never be fit for overseas service, because they have been culled out, they have been gone over, but in certain instances where men have been trans- ferred to the special service unit, they are men who are under age, by a few months, but ultimately will become of age and when they do they will be taken out and will be put into other units if found fit for general service. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Does that apply to the Forestry and Construction Battalions? — A. There is quite a different standard for the Construction and Forestry Battalions. By the Chairman: Q. These men get special overseas allowances, although they never go overseas. — A. If they are enlisted for overseas they do. Q. Supposing a man who has enlisted for overseas wants to be released, what is the rule then? Do you release him? — A. We did release them some time ago, but at present they are not released. Q. If a man has enlisted in good faith and wanted to go over to fight, and if you afterwards say to him : ' You have to stay here and do general work ' do you think you have the right morally to retain the man here when he enlisted for overseas service? — A. Probably not, that is a matter for the Department, it is not a medical matter at all. But in certain instances men have been allowed to go if they were anxious to get out of the service; but in many other instances they have not been allowed to go, but are simply transferred to special service units. By Mr. Bardee: Q. On page 11, if you will look at your report, you go on to say (reads) : — "As yet their hospitals, with the eexception of M.D, No. 2, do not contain adequate facilities for treatment, though such are being provided. Rapid exten- sion of their available accommodation and especially in dealing with their tuberculosis invalids is urgent." Will you give us a synopsis of what the tuberculosis situation is? — A. At the present time, I understand, it is claimed that there is a sufficient amount of accommodation j for tuberculosis patients, that the Commission have entered into arrangements with! RECEPTION, rh'EATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 215 entirely, and in other instances they have arranged to supply additions to existing sanitoria, in order to provide the necessary accommodation. The reason of this state- ment in my report no doubt is that at that particular time conditions were very diftV-r- ent. At one particular time there was the most urgent need for accommodation fc^r tuberculosis invalids, and there had been for a very considerable time. And at this time most particularly because throughout the whole of Canada, at all the camps, in every district, there were tuberculosis patients that could not be accommodated in the existing sanatoria, and it was most urgent that the accommodation should be provided. Q. Were these men returned soldiers from overseas, or were they men who had contracted the disease in the camp ? — A. In a great many instances they were men wlio had not been Overseas, and in some instances they were men who had returned, both classes of men. Q. Where, at that time, were these men treated? — ^A. The men were sent wherever they could possibly find a bed for them, they were being sent from one district to another. In our own district we were not able to get sufficient accommodation. Q. Was Gravenhurst included amongst the sanitoria to which you were sending them?— A. Yes. Q. Did you have sufficient accommodation for them? — A. Yes and no. Q. What does that mean? — A. It means that the acconunodation which might have been obtained without very much difficulty was not made use of; at least the facilities were not made proper use of, and such accommodation as was made use of was exceeded by twice too many, and so was very unsatisfactory. I may say in respect to tuberculosis invalids, whether they are from overseas or training, that as soon as a man is " boarded " out as being tubercular, he is transferred to the Military Hospitals Commission at once, so that all these cases come under the Military Hospitals Com- mission, so that they have virtually had charge of all the tuberculosis cases that were in sanatoria. Q. They were not dealt with in the Military Hospitals? — A. They were not, practically. Q. The opinion was expressed the other day, by Dr. Thompson, that the number of tubercular cases among the C.E.F. was not more than the average of civil life. Can you say anything as to that? — A. I would not like to make a statement of that kind without investigating it, either one way or the other. Q. Do you know what is the percentage in civil life? — A. I am not prepared to give figures. There was a statement made by Col. Thompson in respect to the treat- ment of gas cases, which might be taken exception to, where he stated that many of these gas cases ultimately went into tuberculosis sanatoria. That probably is not in accordance with the facts. Nor do I think they should go into those sanatoria, because there is a very decided objection to putting non-tuberculous chest cases in tuberculosis institutions with tuberculous cases. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. To what sanatoria were these men in my district being sent by the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. What is your district? Q. No. 1. — A. The sanatoria accommodation was very limited and men were being sent partly to the Minnewaska Sanatorium, that is up to the limit of their accommo- dation, and many of them were kept in the London district, as they were all over the country, because of lack of accommodation for them. There is the Muskoka Free Sanatorium under the National Sanatorium Association, and the other, The Minne- waska Institution, is run by a Joint Stock Company. Q. ^\^ly were they not sent to the National Free Institution ? Is it not the best in the country C — A. In the first instance, and at an early period accommodation was arranged for these up to a certain number, I think, fifty at first, and later up to 100. 216 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Could not the Hospitals Commission have obtc^inod accommodation for a large number at that Institution — A. Yes, with additional pavilion and dining-rooms they could have taken a very much larger number. Q. Did they try to do so? — A. I believe they did. Q. Why was not that accepted ? — A. There was an agreement between the Military Hospitals Commission and the National Sanatorium Association to provide a certain amount of accommodation if we had the tubercular patients but the difficulty arose when the Commission started to arrange with the other private sanatorium. As soon as they began their arrangements with that private sanatorium, the big free institu- tion refused to reserve beds for us. Q. Who was running the private sanatorium, the Minnewaska ? — A. The Minne- waska Sanatorium Company, Limited. Q. On what basis did they arrange for the use of that institution ? Was it a suit- able' place ? Do you inspect these places ? — A, Yes, I have at different times. Q. Was this Minnewaska a proper sanatorium to send soldiers to? — A. In my opinion, no, it never was and it never will~^be, without radical changes. Q. What would you recommend with reference to it? — A. The accommodation there is inadequate, it is a ramshackle old place, except for the new wing, it is unsanitary, and the kitchen arrangements are very bad, the men could not be pro- perly fed, and there are no proper laboratory facilities; in fact the whole institution was not a fit place to which tuberculous invalids should be sent. Q:. Was there proper medical attendance? — A. That was very difficult to arrange and the attendance was not suitable in the first instance, until an officer of the Army Medical Corps was sent there, and then through the summer I sent a specialist there whom I asked to make a weekly report on the place. Q. Did you condemn it ? — A. Yes, I condemned it very strongly. Q. What is the date of your report?- — A. I do not know, but I can find it. Q. Did the men object to staying there ? — A. The men objected very considerably at different times. If I had the file which is in the District Office, there is a letter in it which was written by a number of men raising very strenuous objections to being kept there. In fact a copy of the letter was sent to me by the Secretary of the Mili- tary Hospitals Commission, who, no doubt, has a copy of it which he can produce. By Mr. Fardee: Q, Were they kept there after that protest? — A. They were, for a very consider- able time, because there was no other place to send them. Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. They could have sent them to the ISTational Free Sanatorium? — A. Accommo- dation could, no doubt, have been provided for them there, but at that time the Com- mission did not seem willing to take advantage of the accommodation provided at the Muskoka Free Hospital. Q. Why not, is that not a first-class institution?— A. Yes, it is alwaj'S recognized as one of the best in the country. Q. What was the Commission paying for the accommodation of these men at the Minnewaska? — A. I think they paid at first the ordinary rate of $7 per week, but later they had to bring it up to $10, because the institution coidd not obtain the ordinary Government allowance, which is granted to those hospitals usually. Q. Who grants that allowance? — A. You mean the $3 per week? Q. Yes? — A, The $3 per week is I think allowed by the Provincial Government. Q. You mean that the Province would not grant it because it was not efficient or suitable? — A. Because it was not "approved" by the Ontario Government. By Mr. Pardee: Q. And yet the Military Hospitals Commission went on using it? — A. Yes. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 217 By Mr. Middlehro: Q. How many patients would it accominodate ? — A. It had- roughly, accommo- dation for 40 men, but they had as many as 80 there at one time. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. I think we should have the report on that Institution on the record? — A. I have the re))ort by my Deputy which was made in my absence, at the time I was making my inspection. But previous to that, I may say, I felt obliged to call a halt in sending men there. / Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : I think wo should also have the letter of those soldiers complaining about being kept there. ^ Witness : I have my letter to the Secretary of the Military Hospitals Commission with regard to the Minnewaska Sanatorium, and I sent a copy of that letter to the Director General of Medical Services. The Ciiaihman: You might read that letter? — A. (Eeads) : Casualty Dept. M.D. Nb. 2, 215 Simcoe St., August 8, 1916. From A.D.M.S., M.D. No. 2, To Secretary, Military Hospitals Commission, Ottawa. Disposal of Tuberculous Invalids, C.E.F., M.D., No. 2. Sir, — I have the honour to direct your attention to the subject marginally noted, and to state that in my opinion the matter has not been solved with any degree of satisfaction. Tho Minnewaska sanitorium never has been, is not now, and in my opinion, under the present management never will be a suitable place for caring for and treating tuberculous invalided soldiers. So fai* am I convinced of this fact that I have given orders that from now on, no further patients are to be sent there until its suitability is determined. The arrangement entered into by the Commission with this sanitarium management, the accommodation provided by them (utterly unsuitable, except in the new wing), the inadequacy of laboratory facilities and appliances for special treatment, the household management which does not permit the medical officer in charge to determine the suitability or sufficiency of the diets, are some of many matters which require investigation and re-arrangement and will unless put right furnish adequate and interesting material for a public scandal. The whole problem might as well be looked at fairly. Personally, I would have nothing to do with any " Joint Stock Co., Ltd.," in any such matter as this. There are but few solutions of the difficulty. Either the Commission must have an institution of their own, and run it, or they should strive to make satisfactory arrangements with the ,only institu- tion that has all the necessary plant for taking care of an unlimited number requiring only the addition of extra wards and dining rooms. I do not think there is any question as to the capabilities of the Muskoka Free Sanitarium in this regard. The ^linnewaska Sanitarium building in its present state is not worth taking over. It would hardly be considered a suitable or acceptable gift. To establish an institution of their own would require considerable time, and much expense to the Hospital Commission, though perhaps it may be the best solution. If considered so, action should be taken immediately. Failiiig this, I would advise that steps should be taken immediately to arrange for all necessary accommodation for patients sent to Muskoka at the "Muskoka Free Institution." rr>/^i XT' Txr ikjrm.i^ 218 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Had the same amount of energy been spent in perfecting arrangements with that institution as has been spent in dickering with the Minnewaska Joint Stock Co., Ltd., I do not hesitate to say that at present everything would have been running smoothly, and adequate accommodation, care and treatment would be available. I have the honour to be, sir, Your obedient servant, (Sgd.) F. W. MARLOW, Colonel, A.D.M.S., M.D., No. 2. P.S. — The medical officer at the Minnewaska Sanitarium has been com- municated with on this subject and has been asked to take the matter up with the management. He has been advised that laboratory and special treatment facilities and accommodation suitable to me must be provided, and arrange- ments must be made whereby the medical officer will be able to satisfy himself that the diets are suitable and sufficient, and that he may exercise control of all matters pertaining to the physical welfare of the patients. He has been instructed to report to me as to when the place will be ready for my inspection prior to other patients being sent there. (Sgd.) F. W. MARLOW, Colonel. Following that report, no further men were sent to that institution for some considerable time. By the Chairman: Q. How many are there now? — A. There are none there now, because, following that report, I may say, the Secretary of the Hospital Commission, and some other members of the Commission, came to Toronto a few days afterwards, and then the matter of extension for tubercular patients was taken up very seriously. Up to that time the accommodation had been inadequate. Following that the matter was taken up very seriously, and they had a conference with me a few days later, and they agreed that the Minnewaska Sanitarium should be cleared as soon as possible, and I may say that following that, on September 8, the Commission met in Toronto, and the subject of extension of tuberculosis accommodation was then discussed. Since that time, by strenuous efforts they have managed to catch up to the immediate requirements, by taking over some of the sanatoria, by making additions to others, but they have practically forsaken Muskoka altogether, and the Minnewaska was cleared, I think, about November 22, I am not sure, but about that time. By the Chairman: Q. So that there are no returned soldiers there now? — A. No. Some of these patients were sent to the Mowat Sanatorium in Kingston, taken there by the Medical Officer, Major Munn. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex): Q. Did they stay there? — A. No. I see by Jack Canuck they escorted him back: they would not stay. By the Chairman: Q. Why would they not stay? — A. They simply refused to stay so far away from home; and the remainder of the men were taken to a sanitarium at Freeport, near Kitchener, I think, which was opened up for them, but, unfortunately, I am afraid the conditions at Freeport are not much better than Minnewaska. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 219 Bi/ Mr. Pardee : Q. Have you seen the Freeport Hospital recently? — A. No. Q. IIow loug since you have seen it? — A. I have never seen it. Q. It is not in your district? — A. Xo, but it is being administered from the Toronto unit of the Hospitals Commission. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Why do you say it is so bad? — A. I do not say it is as bad as the other place, but I have heard a great deal about it that does not commend it to me. I have heard that the proper facilities for treatment and examination of sputum are absent, the same as at the other place. By Mr. Pardee: Q. No proper appliances, as I understand it, at Freeport? — A. No. One thing I do consider is wrong in connection with the management of that place, and that is that they have a doctor there attending them who is an open case of tuberculosis. I do not think this is a desirable arrangement. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. How many people will it accommodate? — A. I will have to refer to the list i-iven out by the Military Hospitals Commission to get that number. Q. Large or small? One hundred? — A. Oh, no, less than one hundred. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Tuberculosis patients require particular treatment? — A. Yes, they do. Q. And everything must be just as it ought to be for successful treatment? — A. Certainly: it requires good acconunodation, good equipment and careful medical attendance, and nursing. By Mr. Ross: Q. The tuberculosis cases are most numerous among the returned soldiers? — A. I -would not say most numerous, but a great number of the tuberculosis cases have not been overseas: I think slightly over 50 per cent of them have not been overseas. But the whole problem of dealing with tuberculosis is a most serious one and demands a great deal of attention. By Mr. Pardee: Q. They would come under what you say on page 12 of your report : that " Admin- istration of districts has been carried out in many instances by officers of little eicperience, and many such have not had the advantage of completed staflFs while trying to keep pace with the rapidly increasing demands of the service. Efficient assistance with any degree of permanency has been difficult or impossible to obtain. The service has not been up to a proper standard?" — A. There are a great many pliases of tuberculosis which would take a great deal of time to go into. There is one point in connection with it which I would like to call your attention to. It is an arrangement that ought to be dispensed with immediately: that is to say, a regulation whereby a man's discharge is carried out at the end of six months' sanitarium treatment : that is to say, his discharge is brought about. He may be retained in the sanitarium as a free patient on pension instead of getting his ordinary pay and allowance. In the case of a single man his pension is probably more than his pay. In the case of a married man it does not work out to such advantage, but that is a matter of administration really which ought to be adjusted. By the Chairman: Q. The Patriotic Fund will adjust it? — A. It is not so much that, but it could be properly adjusted in another .way. So long as he is improving under treatment 220 SPECIAL COMMirrEE—C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS there is no reason why his discharge should be carried out at six months at all, so far as I can see. By Mr. Pardee: Q. You think he has a right to stay there till he is cured?— A. Yes. In that connection, if you are interested in that, I would like to submit copies of a lett-er which I have sent on" officially, sent to me by Major Munn, the Medical Officer in charge of the Toronto Hospitals and also a letter from Dr. J. H. Elliott, a tuber- culosis specialist, in regard to that particular problem. If it is your wish, I would submit copies of those. "D" Unit, M. H, C. Command, Queen's Park, Toronto, February 6, 1917. From Major F. J. Mmm, M.O. i/c Convalescent Hospitals, M.D. No. 2. To Colonel F. W. Marlow, A.D.M.S., M.D. No. 2, Toronto. Sm, — I have the honour to direct your attention to H.Q. 60-4-8 of May 25, 1916, whereby a man is discharged after six months' sanitarium treatment, usually to pension. The. absurdity of this regulation is very pronounced, and although there has been a very considerable amount of discussion in regard t<' it, there seems to have been no method of having it rescinded. I would point out some of the objections : First, the pay of a single man is increased, whereas that of a married man is decreased about $13 a month and he also loses his allowance from the Patriotic Fund. Second, the man is a civilian and not subject to discipline, one consequence being that he may com( and go as he pleases, and may act as he pleases. There is only one punishment, viz., discharge, which I personally look on as a lamentable expression of our own failure. Third, the man is a civilian, and should not be clothed at public expense, yet we are forced to clothe him. It seems that while these cases are usually granted total disability pension. sometimes they are granted part pension and at other times are discharged without pension at all. Surely these men ought to be dealt with the same as our other cases. Whereas a man is supposed to be entitled to treatment for as long as treatment will benefit his condition, these cases are discharged without any regard to the man's condition as to whether he is going to die within a week, or is on the high road to recovery. There can be no claim to economy in this regulation. Broadly speaking, if one married man drops from $.53 to $40 per month, two single men arc raised from $33 to $40 per month. One of the absurdities is that a single man who has already been getting more money than he required is given even more money and has practically all disciplinary authority removed from him. A lamentable condition of affairs exists when a married man is on the high road to recovery, but states that if he is ytut on pension that he cannot lot his wife and children starve, and that he will, have to go to work. Another three or six months' treatment might have so established his cure that he would permanently remain cured. By leaving the institution at too early a period, the expected result is that he will break down and return to us for further treatment later on. . [Col. F. W. Marlow.] RECEPTIO^\ TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 221 When one gets in touch with these men themselves, as I have by visiting the sanitaria, one gets an idea of what a tremendous effect some apparently trifling regulation may have on the whole future of many of these men. I am informed that the only argument in favour of this regulation is that a card system has been established at Militia Headquarters, and it is insisted that this card must be terminated sometime, and this without any regard what- ever for the physical condition of the individual. The time given in tuberculosis cases is six months, and as far as the Militia Department is concerned, this man's case is then closed — his further treatment depending upon a regulation of the Military Hospitals Commission. May I suggest that there is only one proper basis on which these cases should be dealt with, viz. : that as long as a man remains in a sanitarium that he has a total disability, and that he should be kept on pay and allowances and un- der discipline. When a man is discharged from an institution, and not before that he should then have his disability in the general labour market estimated, and then be pensioned for the proportion of his disability which is due to . service. This matter has given me a very considerable amount of thought for many months past, and I can see no other equitable basis on which these cases may be dealt with. As this is a very verj^ serious matter, I beg to urge your co-operation in order that an immediate solution may be found to this tremendous difficulty as I feel that it is absolutely criminal to permit this state of affairs to persist. I have the honour to be, sir, Your obedient servant, (Signed.) F. J. MUNN, Major. Extract from a letter of Dr. J. H. Elliott, to A.D.M.S., :M.D. Xo. 2, making weekly report re Minnewaska Sanatarium. " Experience in sanatorium work has proven the wisdom of using * improved ' and ' disease arrested ' cases for light hospital duties and this should be adopted for certain patients from Minnewaska and other sanatoria. " I feel some revision must be made calling for discharge of all patients at end of six months in a Canadian sanatorium. The single men may elect to re- main on under treatment, and under total disability pension will receive $40 I)er month instead of $1.10 per day. Again others at end of six months require lurther treatment but many will not elect to take it. Many of these will break down in a few months at home and will be seeking re-admission in a more hope- less condition, and many of those leaving at the end of six months still having bacilli in their sputum will be careless at home and be grave sources of infec- tion to their household particularly when there are children present and these hiter will be a charge on the community, perhaps upon tlie pensions board as being dependents of pensioned soldiers. It is a matter which requires consider- ation. " The Canadian association for prevention of tuberculosis has recommended to the Hospitals Commission that tiie order apply only to ' closed ' cases (with no bacilli in the sputum) and to those who in the opinion of the medical officer of the sanatorium may wisely be allowed to return home, but that otherwise it shall not apply, for instance, 1. To the man known to be careless in his habits 2. To the man who has shown that he will not continue to live along sanitorium lines after discharge, or 3. To the patient who requires further treatment and gives promise of arrest or recovery if continued in this sanatorium." Bated Septombcr 11, 1916." [Col. F. W. Mallow,! 222 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS In speaking of the whole problem of tuberculosis in general, I think the present situation affords opportmiity to the Government to do a very great deal towards the elimination of tuberculosis as a disease, if they will follow this matter up. Q. If they will enlist A, If they will enlist all the men who have tuberculosis, and put them under Government pay — but, seriously, there is something that should be taken up in connection with that : that is the question of establishing tuberculosis colonies, the segregation of tuberculosis cases, and if the committee is interested in that, I would like to refer to some suggestions that have been made in that problem by Major Munn, my Medical Officer of the M.H.C. unit. I have talked the matter over with him on numerous occasions, and if this is of any interest to the committee at the present time, I would like to submit this letter for further consideration later. By the Chairman: Q. Many of these men would be returned soldiers? — A. Yes: it deals with the colonization of tuberculosis soldiers. In your colony you would have your sanitaria. and of course it is something to look forward to, and it would provide, perhaps, a means of solving the tubercular situation in the whole of Canada, not only from a mili- tary, but a civil point of view. I think the present affords an opportunity where a great deal might be done in connection with the returned soldier patients. Where there are bacilli in the sputum we can and should insist upon their having treatment; and we should do the same thing with the civil population, so long as there are bacilli in the sputum, and we should insist on their taking treatment. Q. I am afraid that is out of our sphere ? — A. Yes, but it is wide enough to submit this, if you care to have it. Memoranda submitted by Major F. J. Munn, A.M.C. to Colonel Marlow under letter dated January 30, 1917. TUBERCULOSIS. In this war which has convulsed the civilized nations of the earth, it is earnestly felt that one bright spot may be developed by a strong, progressive policy towards the treatment of tuberculosis. With the backing of the Federal Government, the treat- ment of tuberculosis may be placed on a basis which in peace times would be impos- sible. This condition is a result of the considerable number of cases for which th. Dominion Government is responsible. These must be treated not only by the usual rest cure methods, but they must be carried on under treatment until, through graduated exercise and vocational training, their earning power is restored as far as may be possible. Two groups of cases will develop. In one group they will be enabled to undertake a position in the competitive labour market, and thus be restored to a sound economic position in the State. In the second group (comprising the incurable cases) a scheme of Tuberculosis Colonies should be evolved where the man may become as self-sup- porting as his physical condition will permit, the balance of his support will be determined by medical examination and estimation of disability with consequent pension and possibly free land and house. The broad basis on which this scheme is built lies in the fact that it is necessary for the Dominion not only to give the usual rest cure treatment, but to carry our cases through an elaborate and lengthj'^ course of graduated exercise in order that when a case leaves our institution as cured, there may be the smallest possibility of a break down with its consequent return to us for further sanitarium treatment. It is taken for granted that the State is responsible for any disability which may develop as a result of his service and for any increase or exacerbation of his disability during his lifetime which may fairly be attributed to service. [Col. F. W. Marlow.] REvLi'TiDS. 'iin:ATMi:sr .\.\i> iension than the first man and so would not be compelled to exercise as much effort. I In other words a man able to undergo two hours daily work might be considered I OS having four-fifths disability and the consequent pension for his disability. A man able to do four hours daily work as having three-fifths disability, and a man able to do six hours daily work as having two-fifths disability each would draw his pension and the balance of his income would depend upon his own efforts. On these farms would also be developed, and on the best advice, up-to-date bee- keeping and henneries and any other suitable occupations. Ihese methods would provide work for approximately six months in the year, mostly summer work, with a small amoiuit of work in the henneries for the winter. [Col. F. W. Marlow.] 224 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F. -RETURN ED SOLDIERS Cows would also be kept for the colony and sanitarium, the milk being handled only by closed cases. 2. The second requisite is therefore the provision of suitable co-operative open- air workshops on the same basis of work as outlined above for the hours on the farm. This would require keen business management in order to undertake not only work which would be suitable for the cases to work on, but also in order that work be under- taken for which a lucrative market may be found. This work would be limited in several ways, as the atmosphere must not be con- taminated, nor may dust be permitted. The manufacture of articles which might be considered as carrying infection could" not be undertaken. However, it is not con- sidered that there would be any difficulty in undertaking such as wicker-work, light furniture or wood work, light metal work, and possibly some varieties of machine work. The internal economy of the sanitarium would be carried on in the same manner as that in which sanitaria are now administered. Broadly speaking, the rest cure and some graduated exercise is carried on until the case reaches a stage where the condi- tion is arrested and "closed" (non-infective) and the man is considered fit to undergo work to the extent of, say, two hours twice daily. He then becomes eligible for the tuberculosis colony. The colony would be laid down on a co-operative basis, with a centre, where are congregated the various shops, warehouses, factories, church, school, etc. Aroimd this centre would be grouped the various little truck-farms. These truck-farms would be graduated in size according to the man's ability to work. On each farm would be constructed a cottage for himself and family, if married. Each cottage to have open air sleeping porches for the patient and probably also for the rest of the family. There would also be provided community houses for the single men. The advantages of having a colony of this sort are fairly obvious. In the first place, the patient is living under good conditions with a certain amount of constant medical supervision. He is much more likely to remain a "cure" than if permitted to go back to city life. The possibility of infection of others in the family will not be nearly so great as it would were he living in an ordinary city house. The fact that man is a social animal determines the necessity of establishing a centre where social intercourse may be carried on. The cost of maintaining the sanitarium would probably be less than the cost of maintaining an equal number of cases under present arrangements where the cost runs into $10 or $12 per week. It is anticipated that outside of the capital cost of the tuberculosis colony and the pensions, that it would be practically self-sustaining. The capital cost is, therefore, the only obstacle. It is estimated that this would probably approximate one million dollars. The saving to the state through prevention cannot be estimated, but would many times cover the initial cost. It is felt that some such solution is the only logical one which presents a per- manent basis for a considerable proportion of our returned soldiers who have con- tracted tuberculosis. These will require permanent direction, and~this scheme would render them largely self-supporting and thus be of great economic importance to the country. This scheme provides a permanent solution for this question of a home for incurables insofar as tuberculosis is concerned. Lot us recapitulate: 1. That the Federal Government must bear the responsibility for disability or exacerbation of same due to service both in treatment during the curative stage, and pension for the permanent portion of disability. 2. That board lines of treatment are necessary through rest cure and graduate: exercise to a sound economic basis in the competitive labour market. [Col. F. W. Marlow.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 225 3. That truck-farms, co-operative open-air workshops, factories bee-keeping, henneries, etc., are required. We might bear in mind the possibility of so developing public opinion that com- pulsorj' treatment of open eases may become the law (just as compulsory registration is now the law). The conclusion arrived at is that the various municipalities, counties, provincial governments and federal government should determine that such a policy is both necessary and wise, and that if the scheme cannot or will not be financed by them, that public benefaction should be appealed to in order that under such auspicious circumstances, and under such pressing necessity, we niay at once arrive at such a desirable solution of so urgent a problem. The amendment follows: M.H.C.C. "D'' 1-4-A "D" Unit, M.H.C. Connnand, No. 1 Queen's Park, Toronto, Ont., February 26, 1917. From:— M. 0. ''D" Unit, :M.H.C. Command, C.E.F., Toronto, Ont. To:— Colonel F. W. Marlow, A.D.M.S., Exhibition Camp, Toronto, Ont. Tuberculosis. Sir, — I have the honour to inform you that I have slightly modified the scheme laid down in my recent memorandum to you in regard to the treatment of tuberculosis. I have now come to the conclusion that the farm colony should be worked out on a strictly co-operative basis, just as I had planned for the workshops, for these two following reasons : — 1. K one patient were responsible for one small farm, his place would suffer very much in the case of a relapse or an intermittent illness. 2. Some of the cases might be inclined to do more work than they are physically able to do, whereas in a co-operative scheme a man would only draw a remuneration for the number of hours which the physician laid down for him. I might say that this scheme is receiving approbation from all sides, including Major J. L. Todd of the Board of Pension Commiissioners. I e.xpect shortly to have a detailed town plan which will present some of the ideas in a more tangible form. I have the honour to be, sir. Your obedient servant, F. J. MUNX, Major. M.O. " D " Unit, M.H.C. Command, C.E.F. There is one other subject I would like to direct your attention to briefly, and that is the question of venereal disease, and simply to state that some very drastic action will have to taken in the matter of treatment of venereal diseases and the matter of detecting venereal diseases amongst returned soldiers, because when the venereal cases begin to come home that are not properly cured, unless proper super- vision of these cases is carried out and proper treatment afforded, you can imagine what the result is going to be in the country, and that ought to be taken up inmie- diately. 2S2TT-15 [Col. F. W. Marlow.] 226 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Middlebro: Q. Have you any suggestions to make? — A. 1 have none that are really fit to be put in. But that is a matter that ought to be taken up for consideration, and I would be glad to put my suggestions in at a subsequent time it" you wish to have them. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Most assuredly we would. You might draft a memo, Colonel to be put iu as an exliibit? — A. I think it is a problem that really must be taken up very seriously, because it is going to be a most serious problem and we cannot afford to get behind in it. We ought to tal^e it in hand immediately. By the Chairman: Q. For your information, Colonel Marlow, I would say that pages 52, 53 and 54 of the Memoranda that Colonel Potter supplied us with to-day give statistics regarding these cases? — A. We know that there are a great many of those cases overseas, and it is a notable fact that these men come out of hospital before their treatment is finished, a great many of them do, and so long as there is any sign of trouble these men are undoubtedly a menace to the country, and their treatment must be finished beyond the shadow of a doubt. There were one or two other matters which I was going to discuss with you with respect to certain things that were introduced by the Commission in regard to nursing, and also in respect to massage; but if it is true that the medical work is to be restored to the Medical Services probably these diffi- culties "will be removed. In respect to nursing, I may say the Commission sent out an order by which they refused to recognize the rank of our nursing sisters, and their inteDvion, I believe, was to create a nursing service of their own, the Military Hospitals (.'ommission Nursing Service, along some other lines than the Army Medical Corps. If thit service is coming back to our Corps, that difficulty will not continue, but it would have been, to my mind, a most serious difiiculty. We have constantly main- tained that the nurses who are nursing in the convalescent homes should be nursing riste.''S of the Army Medical Corps; that is to say we thought— some members of the Commission did not agree — that these nurses should have their rank of nursing sister, the same as they have overseas, because it is the greatest help in carrying on in the hospital in the matter of discipline. I might say that I have had a gTeat deal of experience in that line, because I was the first medical officer to take nursing sisters into camp in 1910, and have had them in every year since, and I have found them most useful in the hospitals. I am personally satisfied that it is most desirable that nursing sisters should have rank. Some dispute that; but our nurses un Canada are probably of a higher standing than nurses anywhere, not only throughout this Continent but lu-cbably in the world, and I do think that they are deserving of conunissioned rank for the work they carry on; not only that, but it is the greatest source of protection to the nurses themselves to wear the uniform and to have the rank which, I think, is materially useful in the discipline of the homes. The other matter, sir, was thi matter of massage which plays a very great part in the treatment of many of the invalids, and is one of our most effective measures in restoring arms, leg's, fixed — joints, and so on. I want to mention that the arrangement that we have entered into recently, or had entered into with the consent of the Medical Superintendent of the. Hospitals Commission, was to have a class started for the training of certain people, who would be carefully selected, in giving massage, and these arrangements were GTitered into, as I say, with the consent of Colonel Thompson to Major ^funn, and it was agreed that they were to receive a certain remuneration; certificated masseuses were to receive, I think, $45 a month, and assistants who were not certificated were to receive $30. Arrangements were made with the Toronto Society of Trained ^fasseuses to have a class to train them. Subsequently, without any warning, they took this massage, entirely a medical matter, and put it into the hands of a Sergeaut- ]\rajor Kendall, who has charge of their physical training. They linked up massage with physical training. rCol. F. W. Marlow.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 227 B,i/ Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Who did? — A. The Hospitals Commission and under the arrangements that liave now been made in our district instead of this other work going on, they selected a number of girls and put them in charge of Sergeant-Major Kendall and sent them • lown to the Whitby institution to take a three months course in massage. While they ire getting this training they are to be paid $15 a month, and if they pass the examina- 'ion they are to be employed in the conA-alescent hospitals at a salary of, I think, $55 a month. The reason I mention this is that I certainly do express a decided objection to • •arryiiig on any such class as that at an institution of that kind. Probably that will readjust itself under any new rearrangements that may be made. Bi/ tlic Chairman: Q. I have always felt that returned soldiers, particularly blinded men, should l)e taught massage. In Japan it is a government monoiwly. Every blind man there is taught massage and no one is allowed to practice massage except blind mCn? — A. If I may just refer to one other point, because Mr. Middlebro stated this morning in asking me a question, that the Government had found it necessary to create the Military Hospitals Commission Command. In the last paragraph of p. 19 I have said something which applies not only to the medical services but to the ^filitnry Hospitals Commission Command as referred to in p. 18 where I have said :— It seems obvious, then, that the medical service was regarded as being incap- able of dealing with this problem which should have been its own. As it now is much duplication of " machinery " will be necessary and much expense will be added to the Government to maintain a separate and distinct organization to carry on work which should ordinarily have been performed by the Militia Department, had the medical service demonstrated its capability of properly preparing the soldiers' disposition for the administrative authorities to take the necessai-y action. The reason for that statement is that I considered that this work is largely medical work, and with regard to the disposition of a man, as soon as you get his medical reports or board completed his disposition is comparatively a small thing, so that I would state in reference to this paragraph that the machinery for doing all of this work that is being done by the Hospitals Coimnission Command was already in existence in the Militia Department, and, in accordance with the arrangements that we were carrying on in Military District No. 2 with our own casualty department, we thought that the whole work might just as well have been carried on by the Militia Department without any duplication of machinery at all, and with, probably, a great deal less eonfnsicn thaii under the present arrangement. By Mr. Middlebro: Q. Can you suggest any reason why the Military Hospitals Commission was created if the work could l)e better carried on by the Army Medical Cori^s? Somebody must have thouglit the commission necessary ?— A. Well, I could suggest a reason. I do not know how far it is true, but the one that appeals to me more than aiivthing el^e is that »t was a matter of unloading at the time. Q. Unloading what ?— A. Unloading work from the Militia Department which it ^nould ordinarily have done, but because at that time it was particularly bu'^y with :"any other matters that were pressing, the idea of a Commission was coliceived and tne matter was unloaded. Q. You are of the opinion that, owing to the amount of work in the Militia L^epartment they thought it was necessary to give the work to the Military Hospitals -ommission?— A. To create something else to handle this big problem. 228 SPECIAL COMMiTrEE—C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Pardee: Q. They did not think it worth while to give it to the A.M.C. ? — A. Up to this tinif they did nothing about that. But with regard to the Hospitals Commission Command, as I have said, in my report, all machinery for carrying out this work already existeil in the Militia Department, and I maintain that the duplication of the machinery tn carry on these units in the different districts was unnecessary and an unjustifiabl. expense; because had they been carried on in accordance with our plan of carryiiiL on the casualty department — the same thing could have been done in every district- it then could have been carried on as a unit oi5 the C.E.F., and in each district it would be responsible to the District Officer Commanding, which, in some respects, it is now. It is a most anomalous organization, and, as I say, did not need to have been brought into existence. By the Chairman: Q. Was it not created on the supposition that the A.M.C. was insufficient to handlr the problem? — A. You mean the Command? Q. No, the Military Hospitals Commission. — A. Well, as I stated in my report, it seems obvious that that was the case. Q. The Corps had been depleted by men going overseas? — A. Well, I have stated it seems obvious that that was their opinion, and I do not say that it was mine. But 1 had reference to the Command. The Military Hospitals Commission was created, I take it, primarily for the establishing, equipping, maintaining and supplying of insti- tutions for the returned soldiers. I further maintain that had its work been con- fined to that which is a tremendous problem in itself, together with the vocational training and .repatriation, and had the military work in connection with the wholi problem been left under the Militia Department, the present difficulties would not havi arisen. By the Chairman: Q. Do you think the field is large enough to afford ample scope for both organiza tions? — A. Absolutely. I think if the Hospitals Commission were to confine its worl to the non-military side — that is to the providing of accommodation, the housing an- feeding problem, and also to the vocational training and the repatriation problem a the other end when the medical service is finished wath the men, it would then have much bigger job than the Medical Service would have in looking after the treatmen of the men, and ir|.edical reports because I think that vocational training and repatria tion, will be one of the most serious problems we have to deal with. T think there woul be no difficulty whatever in working along those lines if a proper parallel division wer created. Q. You have read the interview with the Minister of the Militia, which I hande to you. Does not that seem to be along the lines you have mentioned ? — A. May I as the minister if he will allow me to put in these recommendations and that they 1 taken as an answer to your question ? The Chairman: We will ask the minister if he has any objections to these recon mendations going in. Later, in a personal interview with the honourable the minister. Colonel Mario was granted permission to enter his special recommendations which were submitti on December 28, 1916, and are as follows: — MEDICAL SERVICE, INVALIDS. Under present circumstances it is imperative that the work of the Arr Medical Corps and the Military Hospitals Commission, in respect to the medi( service to invalids should be co-ordinated in order to fix responsibility for t service and to attain for it a proper standard. 2. The medical service of the Militia Department has so many and so vari [Col. F. W. Marlow.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 229 duties to perform in respect to recruits and soldiers in training, and supply of medical units and reinforcements for overseas sei-vice that in order to secure the proper degree of efficiency in the Medical Service to Invalids, it is advisable to organize and maintain until such time as the whole medical work can be consistently relegated to the general medical service, a branch of the service to be known as the Medical Service Invalids, such service to be carried on as a part of the Army Medical Corps work in Canada and to be administered apart from the general medical service. 3. The Medical Service, Invalids, should be allowed to draw upon the Army Medical Corps through its administration for such officers and other A.M.C. personnel as are available for this special service. Such officers and others while so employed should be detached from the general service for duty with the special branch, and should be subject to return to the general service only by arrangement bet.ween the D. G. M. S. and the Director of Medical Ser- vices, Invalids. 4. It should be understood that, when in the interest of the Medical Ser- vices Invalids, it is considered desirable to have commissions, temporary or otherwise as recommended, granted to medical practitioners whose services are needed, such action will be facilitated by the Army Medical Corps and imme- diate detachment for duty with the special branch permitted. 5. It should also be understood that if it is considered by the Director of .Medical Services Invalids, in the interest of the special service to employ civi- lian practitioners or nurses where suitable militia medical officers or nursing sisters are not available, such action may be taken. 6. The Medical Service Invalids, should be administered by a D.M.S. Invalids (Director of Medical Services Invalids). 7. There should also be appointed an A. D.M.S. Invalids (Assistant Direc- tor of ^Medical Services Invalids) to assist the D.M.S. Invalids. 8. In each Military District there should be appointed a D.A.D.M.S. Invalids (Deputy Assistant Director of Medical Services Invalids) such officers to be responsible to the D.M.S. Invalids for the administration of the Medical Service Invalids in the A^arious districts. 9. The Medical Service, invalids should be accorded the medical work of the Military Ilospitals Commission Command. It should co-operate to the ful- lest extent with the Medical Superintendent of the Military Ilospitals Com- mission in arranging an adequate and efficient service to meet all requii'ements. 10. It is suggested that it would be advantageous if arrangements -could be made to have the J), ^f. S. invalids an ex-officio member of the Military Hospitals Commission. 11. It is further suggested that the Medical Service Invalids might co- operate with the tensions Contmission in the matter of the re-examination of pensioners. 12. In respect to this service, as in respect to the medical service generally, a revision of the rates of pay and allowance should he considered. The accompanying charts from which much detail is omitted serve to illus- trate such a service as outlined above and the disposition of invalids throughout the period of their convalescence and repatriation. 2. As an alternative to this plan it might be arranged to have the medical superintendent of the Military Ilospitals Commission apiwinted A.D.M.S. Invalids with authority to administer the Medical Service Invalids as outlined above and in the accompanying charts. In view of the large amount of time [Col. F. W. Mallow] 230 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS taken up by his duties under the Military Hospitals Commission in connection with providing and maintaining adequate and suitable accommodation for invalids and superintending all other medical matters relative to invalids, other than the medical service in respect to their treatment and disposition, it is doubtful if such an arrangement would be satisfactory. It is considered, how- ever, that such a plan would be more satisfactory than any in effect up to the present time. 3. While it is no doubt possible that a medical service, invalids might be organized along civilian lines, it is considered most inadvisable to resort to such a procedure, and for reasons which are so obvious that they do not need to be detailed. (Copies of charts referred to are not attached as they were not copied.) By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Did I understand you to say that in your opinion vocational training should be continued by the Military'- Hospitals Commission, or by some other body? — A. I should say it should be done by the Hospitals Commission. In my opinion the Medical Service would be very glad to be relieved of the housing and feeding problem, that is not a niedical matter. My idea is that the medical services in respect to these men should be confined to distinctly niedical work — to treatment, medical reports and dis- position by medical boards — and that the housing and feeding problem should bo attended to by the Hospitals Commission. Q. You have made frequent references to the Hospitals Commission Command. How many men compose that ? — A. I could not say how many men are in it at present, but all the men in Canada at the present time who are in class 2, that is to say, in the convalescent class, are on the strength of the Military Hospitals Commission Command. As soon as they are discharged into class 1, without pension, or into class 3, with pension, they are immediately struck off the strength of the Hospitals Com- . mission Command. Witness retired. The Chairjian : Colonel Marlow has concluded his testimony, and I will ask Colonel Potter if, after listening to Colonel Marlow's evidence, he desires to say anything with respect to it. Colonel Potter : It is difficult to remember everything that has been said to-daj-. Perhaps if the opportunity is afforded me of reading the printed testimony something may suggest itself to me. The Chairman: Does any member of the committee wish to ask Colonel Potter any further questions? By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. I would like to understand how the members of these medical boards which have passed so many unfit men, were appointed? Did the medical officer of the district appoint them? or were they appointed direct by the Minister of Militia over the head of your office? — A. As a general principle I think the local , Q. I know what the general principle should be, but what is the practice? — ^A. The local practice was perhaps for the district officers to secure men at convenieni points. Q. Was that the universal practice? — A. As far as I am aware it is the universa practice for the district officer to arrange to get the medical officers. [Colonel Porter.] RECEPTWy, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 231 By the Chairman: Q. Wliat explanation do you- give for tiie very large number of men who apparently were taken in and kept for a considerable period and then discharged as being medically unfit, both here and across the water? — A. I do not think of any more reasons than those that have_ already been mentioned by Colonel Marlow. Q. Do you agree with the answers that Colonel Marlow gave? — A. I cannot remember all the reasons Colonel Marlow assigned, but as far as I can remember, I have nothing to add to them. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Let us get down to the actual point. As a matter of fact in some cases local men were appointed as medical examiners, who were not recommended by the medical officers of the district, but from headquarters and not from any regular routine source? — A. I did not catch your question, will you repeat it, please? Q. Were any medical officers appointed as examiners from headquarters without the recommendation pi the District Medical Officer? — A. I think there were a few, but that is entirely a matter of memory. Q. You cannot tell me how many? — A. No, I could not tell you. Q. You could not tell me by looking up the files ? — A. I hardly think I could, sir. Witness retired. Mr. Ernest Henry Scammell called, sworn and examined: By the Chairman: Q. At what date, speaking approximately, were you appointed to your present position? — A. ^fy appointment was not made until some considerable time after I had oommeiiced the duties of secretary of the Military Hospitals Commission. I com- menced to act as secretary of the Commission immediately it was formed, which was by Order in Council on June 30, 1915. Q. Then the Military Hospitals Commission was created on June 30, 191.5 ? — A. It was created as the Hospital Commission, and the Order in Council creating it was somewhat limited in its scope. Q. You might tell us, because I understand you have been with this organization from the beginning, and even earlier, what were the conditions which led to the crea- tion of the Military Hospitals Commission? Why was it created and why were its powers enlarged ? — A. I cannot say, sir, what was at the back of the mind of the Prime Minister and all others interested in the discussions which led up to the formation of the Commission. By Hon. 31 r. Murphy: Q. With whom did those discussions take place? — A. They took place presumably in Council. Q. You are not referring to interviews that people had with the Government? — A. No. I knew nothing about the matter until the Commission was formed, but it was realized that we were approaching a very large problem. It was also realized that the Militia Department, with its medical service, was fully occupied in sending troops overseas. Q. You say it was realized. Who realized that? — A. All those in charge, sir. Q. You are assuming that those were the reasons which led up to the formation of the Commission? — A. Exactly, sir. As I stated, I had nothing to do with the pre- liminary organization of the Commission. The first Order in Council merely author- ized the Commission to organize Convalescent Homes for the returned soldiers of the Canadian Expeditionary Force. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] 232 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. At that time there was no question of any active cases coming back? — A. No, nor of any camp cases requiring treatment, that is, men invalided while in Canada. It was very soon recognized that the first Order in Comicil of 30th June, 1915, was too limited. First of all, as to the classes with whom we were in a position to deal, and second as to the scope of the Order in Council.' Therefore, a new draft was made, under which the name of the Commission was changed to that of Military Hospitals Commission, as it stands today. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. What was it called first?— A. The Hospital Commission first. Its full title now is the Military Hospitals and Convalescent Homes Commission. The new Order in Council was passed dated 14th of October, and power was taken to deal not only vith officers, non-commissioned officers and men of the Canadian Expeditionary Force who returned invalided from the front, but also with those who were invalided on active service in Canada, Bermuda or elsewhere. Power was also taken to do sonie- thing towards the question of employment, which was not included in the previous Order in Council. Perhaps, sir, I might give you a brief summary of the steps which have been taken. The first task before the Commission was the provision of Convalescent Homes. The Department of Militia and Defence had previously created a Committee which had arranged for three or four small Convalescent Homes. These were taken over by the Commission from that Committee, and steps taken to open more Homes as they might be required.. The earlier Homes were, one in Nova Scotia, one in Quebec city, one in Montreal, I think that was all. We endeavoured to keep the provision of these Convalescent ITomes ahead of the returning men. During the autumn of 1915, com- paratively few men were returned to us, not more on an average than about 100 a week, and very often less than that number. In the middle of November we siiddenly had a big shipment. Q. That was on November 15? — A. That was the Metagama shipment. We had no notification that that shipment was coming until the boat was four days at sea; neither Military Hospitals Commission nor the Militia Department. That ship had 620 convalescent men. The matter was dealt with, but it gave us a good deal of trouble. By the Uhairman: Q. What became of that shipment of 620 men ? I believe they were all Canadians, but many of them had never been at the front? — A. A great many of them. Happily we had made arrangements a little while previously to open our largest Convalescent Home in Toronto, and finding that this shipment was on the way, we rushed the open- ing of that institution, which was ready the day before the men arrived in Toronto. We also at that time had a Convalescent Home in Winnipeg, and another in Calgary. Q. Did you distribute these men on arrival, at the various places? — A. Yes, we dis- tributed them and then we gradually increased our accommodation, always keeping ahead of the number of men that were returning. Q. Was there any time that you had less acconnuodation, at any point, than you had men ? — A. Yes, but I will come to that in a moment or so. That was the misfor- tune and not the fault of the Commission. We had a number of Homes empty, or practically eiupty, with perhaps 20 men whei*e we had room for 100 ; some of the smaller Homes were quite empty, but we were learning here, what they are learning in Eng- land, that the smaller Home is unsatisfactory and also that a Convalescent Home is not what is wanted. We started to prepare for Convalescent Homes or rest-places for recuperation. Q. Where kindly individuals would donate their homes and make everything lovely for a few soldiers? — A. Exactly, that was our idea at the beginning; an idea which we have had to unlearn. We have found a larger institution under proper discipline, and [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 233 uuder expert management, is far better adapted to the welfare of the soldier, than the smaller institution. Q., Under more efficient management? — A. Yes, sir. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. The larger the home the better? — A. The bigger the unit the more efficient is the management. We have always had a difficulty in forecasting the number of men about to return, a difficulty which has been partly occasioned by the conditions in Eng- land, and also by the conditions at the front. They cannot tell us very far ahead how inany men we may expect, and the Commission has felt that it should not spend too much of the country's money in preparing and equipping homes, and in employing staffs where these homes will not be kept almost full, and the staff fully employed. Con- sequently, we may not in some directions have gone ahead and spent as much money as we might have done had we known exactly how the shipments would arrive. Q. How much have you spent to date? — A. The total expenditure of the Com- mission to date is $843,849. I think it would be well for me to give you a list of the various institutions that we have at the present moment, in order that you may see liow the work has developed. Starting in the East, we have a small Home in Halifax, and a small Home in Sydney- and another small Home in St. John. By the Chairman : Q. Are you satisfied you have sufficient accommodation in tlio Maritime Provinces? — A. Xo, sir, we have not. Q. Will you tell us what places you are taking over in the Maritime provinces to increase your accommodation there? — A. In Halifax we have just taken over a part of the buildings and grounds of the Dalhousie University. We shall probably, next week, let a contract for putting up temporary buildings on those gi'ounds. It is necessary for us to centralize in Halifax, because we can get better medical service there, and further, because it is one of tlie ix)rts of disembarkation. It is also the capital of the province, consequently we have made that arrangement with the Dalhousie University. Shortly we will have sufficient accommodation in Nova Scotia to take care of all the Nova Scotia men. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. What will Dalhousie do ? — A. Dalhousie will use a part of the present buildings and they have another building in the city. The total accommodation which we will have in Halifax will be about 350. By the Chairman : Q. Will that be sufficient there? — A. That will be for some time to come. In addition we have just erected at Pier No. 2, at Halifax, a receiving Hospital, with 550 l)ed8 of which 450 are for general cases and 100 for T.B's and isolation cases. That Hospital should be read;^^ to receive patients this week, the beds and everything will be ii>ady, and everything is complete. That will be a receiving hospital only, although it will 1)0 possible, if we wish, to keep them there for a week or two. Proceeding to New Brunswick very shortly we shall be getting the old Government House at Fredericton which, with a small home we have at St. John, will give us all the acconunodation we are likely to require for many months to come for convalescents m that province. For active cases we have taken over and altered the Armoury at St. John which will give us room for about 500 beds. Q. What will the Government building accommodate at Fredericton? — A. Only about 200. At Quebec we have the Savard Park Hospital, owned by the Department of the Tiiterior, which has been handetl over to us with its staff. The staff is paid by the Department of the Interior. The building is in good condition and it is a most excel- lent hospital, with accommodation for 150. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] 234 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETUUNED SOLDIERS Q. What was it used for before it was handed over to your Commission? — A. It was used as an Immigration Hospital, and we have used it as a Convalescent Hospital for the past eighteen months. The Medical Officer in charge is Dr. Page, who is an officer of the Department of the Interior at Quebec city. By the Chairman: Q. Suppose what Dr. Marlow has been advocating should come to pass, namely that all the Medical Service should come under the A.M.C., what would be Dr. Page's position? — A. He is an officer of the A.M.C. Q. Although he is also an officer of the Interior Department? — A. lie is not paid by the A.M.C, he holds an honorary commission in that Corps. Q. He has qualifications sufficient to meet the requirements of the Militia Depart- ment? — A. Absolutely, and that also applies to his two assistants at Quebec. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. Is Dr. Page receiving C.E.F. pay or is he on the Hospital Commission Staflf ? — A. Neither, he is getting pay as an officer of the Interior Department, he is drawing his usual salary; we are not paying him at all. I think if this Committee is going to Montreal, it should try to go down to Quebec, to see our facilities at that port for receiving the men, and the work which is being done there. There are facilities at the Recruiting Depot, for sleeping them, for feeding them, there is a recreation room, they have the run of the building, and the staff there not only looks after their medical comfort and pay every possible attention to them, but also deals with another aspect of the case, and questions them respecting their previous employment, and their families, and furnishes certain information which will be helpful towards getting them employment later on. Q. I have heard it alleged, although I could not understand how it could possibly be done by Canadian officers, particularly, that these men at the Disembarkation Depot treated the returned soldiers very Prussian-like, that they were very irritable, and very boorish? — A. There is nothing at all of that nature. Q. Have you been there yourself? — A. Many, many times. Q. And you say that statement is unfounded? — A. Absolutely. I have no hesi- tation in giving that statement a most unqualified denial. The Military Hospitals Commission would not stand for anything of that kind for a moment, nor would the Militia Department. This Receiving and Discharge Depot is operated partly by the Militia Department and partly by the Military Hospitals Commission, although we have the privilege of paying the salaries. We have no other convalescent home in Quebec. The next is in Montreal, where our principal home is in the Grey N'uns Hospital. There we have accommodation for 300, part of a wing in that hospital having been made over to us; it is entirely operated by us. and by the Army Medical Corps; that is, the commission is in charge, and the Army Medical Corps looks after the medical side of the work there. Q. On what basis? So much a day for each man? — A. We pay the Grey Nuns 7.5 cents a day per man, and they provide us with the hospital, with the beds, with the linen, and the food. We pay them monthly their accounts at that rate. We have a similar arrangement with the Khaki League at Montreal. They have two homes, one at Belmont Park and one on McTavish street, the total accommodation of those two homes being 99. By the Chairman: Q. What arrangement have you with them? — A. We pay them 75 cents a day. Q. Who supplies the medical services? — A. The Army Medical Coi-ps officers. We also supply the necessary orderlies and guards and so on. Q. How is the discipline maintained? — A, Maintained by our officers; the officers of A unit Military Hospitals Commission command at all these places. All these [Colonel Potter.] RECEPTIO:S\ TKEATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 235 homes in Moiiti-eal are under tlic officer commanding A unit, and the staff is employed by liim, and is paid from the head office here. In Montreal we are making an exten- sion. We have taken the old Loyola College on Drummond street, and are converting it into a convalescent home. Q. By building an extension? — A. No, by renovating the whole place throughout. It will give us room for 250 patients. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Are you renting the building? — A. Yes. Q. From whom? — A. I am afraid I cannot tell you offhand. It was sold as a real estate proposition. It was some organization that bought it. By Hon. Mr. Murphi/: Q. Realties Limited? — A. Some name like that. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. What rent are you paying? — A. The rent of the building is the interest on a $75,000 mortgage, and any other fixed charges, amounting to a sum of six or seven thousand dollars a year. That building will be ready for use, I hope, in two weeks. There has been a little delay in getting some equipment, otherwise it would have been ready now. That will be used mainly for convalescents, I expect, but we are in a position now in Montreal that we can either use the Grey Nun accommodation for convalescents, or we can use it for accommodation of hospital cases. The same will apply to this old Loyola Building or we can use either as active treatment hospitals. Q. Where have you been carrying on your vocational training in Montreal ?^A. In some of the rooms in the basement of the Grey Nunnery. Unfortunately the ac'conunodation is not enough, and we shall have to make an extension in that direc- tion. It may be we shall make an extension by utilizing one of the technical schools, but that matter has not yet been finally decided; but I was going to interpolate here, in view of a remark by Colonel ]\rarlow, that we have now thoroughly up-to-date and complete equipment in the Grey Nuns hospital for medical work. The equipment has been put in under the direction of our medical officer there, and is considered to be what will be required, if that place is used as an active treatment hospital. By the Chairman: Q. Is Dr. Dunston Grey your medical officer? — A. No, sir. Dr. Grey is working iu the hospital. Dr. Colonel IMackenzie Forbes is our officer in Montreal. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. How is he paid? — A. I do not think Colonel Forbes has been transferred to us; if not, he is paid by the Army Medical Corps. By the Chairman: Q. What is Colonel Forbes' title, as far as you are concerned? — A. Medical officer, A unit. The next Convalescent Home is the one in Ottawa, Sir Sandford Fleming. Q. Supposing you tell us about the other homes in that district: for instance, the Tuberculosis A. I would rather take the tuberculosis subject separately if I may. The accommodation of the Sir Sandford Fleming Home with the adjoining house is 90. Q. What is the address of that home?— A. Chapel street. Q. Do you know the number? — A. I think it is 213, just above Eideau street. Q. Under what terms is this property given to the commission? — A. The old Sir Sandford Fleming house is loaned to us by the executors. Q. What about the adjoining house? — A. We pay rent, $75 a month for it. The two houses are joined together, so that they are one. The next point is Kingston, [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] 236 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS v.licre we have the Elmhurst Home, accommodation 42, and the Richardson, accom- modation 27. The Elmhurst Home is rented by us at $700 a year, and the Richard- son home is loaned to us. At Kinj^'ston, as was stated in Colonel Thompson's evi- dence, we are taking over two of the buildings at the Queen's University, and are putting up an additional building for kitchen purposes, and so forth. The work is well in hand. We shall then have room in Kingston for 550 patents. Q. In the light of your present experience, are those two small hospitals you mentioned in Kingston desirable? — A. No; they will be useful, very probably, for annexes. The Richardson Home we shall probably use as a sleeping place for our ordei'lies. Q. You are likely to .centralize your work on the new hospital on the College grounds? — A. Yes. Q. Then where next ? — A. Then there is the institution at Whitby, a photograph of which is in this room, which will give accommodation for 1,100 or 1,200. I was in Toronto on Tuesday and they told me they were ready for about 450. Already we have sent about 100. That will be one of the most ideal places we have in Canada. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Any particular class of patient? — A. We shall simply send general convales- cents. By the Chairman: Q. How many will it accommodate? — A. 1,100 or 1,200. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. 'Lots of fresh air? — A. Yes, all that is wanted. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. It is at Whitby? — A. Yes; it is the new Ontario Government Hospital for the Insane. By the Chairman: Q. Under what terms do you get the use of it? — A. We are paying the Ontario Government for that institution, and also their institution at Guelph, $50,000 a year plus the interest on the money, which would be paid to them next September by the Grand Trunk for the institution on Queen street, Toronto, making a total of about $70,000 a year. Q. For the two? — A. Yes. That is probably a little less than the interest on the capital involved. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. How is the Grand Trunk connected with the matter? — A. The Ontario Govern- ment had a hospital for the insane on Queen street, Toronto : they have done very little to that probably for some years, because they were building their new institution at Whitby. They sold that property to the Grand Trunk, and the Grand Trunk is due to pay for it next September. Now, in order to give us Whitby they have had to get the Grand Trunk to hold off paying for this property until such time as it is ready for delivery. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. So they are losing the interest on the money ? — A. They are losing interest on the money, which is four per cent on about $480,000, and of course we have to recoup them what they are losing. We have also to pay for the improvements and alterations which will be necessary in that place in order that they may continue to use it. Q. They are continuing to use it as an asylum? — A. Yes, all we have had to do ia to indemnify, as far as possible, the Government of Ontario, and they are handing us over these two institutions at Whitby and Guelph. Then we have also the institution [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] RECEPTlOy, r RE ATM EXT AND RE-EDUCATION 237 loaned to us by the Government of Ontario at Cobourg, to wliich we are sending nerve cases, nearly all of which are more or less cases of insanity. Q. Do you include cases of shell shock? — A. Yes, if they are bad. Insane cases, unless very badly insane, we send to Cobourg, so that they may be observed and looked after for a month or t,wo, to determine whether they really are asylum cases or not. The equipment in Cobourg is up-to-date, two first-class alienists are there. This is another institution which I should like you gentlemen to visit, if you have an oppor- tunity to do so, especially in view of some attacks which have been made on it recently. Q. That is the Cobourg one? — A. Yes. Q. What do you say is wrong with it? — A. Our friend '' Jack Canuck" has some- thing to say. Q. I do not read that paper; is he telling the truth? — A. No, there is no truth in the charges at all. Now, at Toronto, there is the Central Military Convalescent Hos- pital on College Street, which is the old Bishop Strachan school, with a normal accommodation o£ 130; but we can squeeze more than that into it if necessary. There is also the Spadina Hospital, which is the old Knox College, where we have accom- modation for 275 ; at the present time we have had to put some more in there. By Mr. Pardee: Q. It is overcrowded? — A. The Spadina Hospital is overcrowded at present, although we took a hundred patients out to Whitby the other day. We have a small hospital in one of the outskirts of Toronto, Longwood, a home belonging to !Mrs. Beattie, which was furnished and handed over to us free of charge, and where we have room for 25, and we have used that for a rest home. It is the one small home that is really valuable to us, because we can send there for two or three weeks men who want to got away from the noise of the city. At Hamilton we have one place similarly fixed up for us, known as the Victoria Convalescent Home, with room for 35. Also Mrs. Crerar has devoted part of her house, "' Dunedin," for returned soldiers, and she has room for 10. These places are uniformly kept filled, though, for a time, we had no patients for them. At St. Catharines is the home Colonel Marlow takes exception to, which was loaned to us by Miss Catharine Merritt. It is intended primarily for rheumatic cases. We were advised from England to anticipate a large number of rheumatic cases, which have not materialized — I think we were to have as many as fifteen hundred. This place at St. Catharines is quite close to the Welland Hotel with its baths, which would be specially valuable to this class of case. True, it is only a small home with room for 25 patients, and normally we keep about 15 there. But it is one of tllo homes that does not cost us very much to run. AVe do not send men there who require constant medical treatment other than bathing or something of that kind. Then in London we had loaned to us by Colonel Smith, his house, " Belvidere," which had room in it for 40 or 45 men. We used it for some months, but found it was too small, so closed it. We made arrangements with the Victoria Hospital in Ixvndon that they should give us the two central wings, and are building for them a wooden building outside in the grounds for their isolation cases and putting up a kitchen, etc., for ourselves. We have room there for 130 patients, and can use that hospital either for convalescents or for active treatment cases, as we decide. At the present time we are using it for convalescents, and it is doing the work splendidly. At Port Arthur we have a small place that has been loaned to us by ^Ir. Frank Keefer, K.C., where there is room for 25. It is usually occupied about full. There has been a considerable enlistment from Thunder Bay district. At Winnipeg we have the Deer Lodge Hotel, which has been loaned by Mr. Rod Mackenzie. That hotel was supix>sed to accommodate a hundred, but it does not. It probably will take about 60, perhaps a few less, because we have had to take up so much room for our classes. We have taken temporarily a hotel in Winnipeg, which brings the accommodation up to a hundred [Mr. E. H. Scaramell.] 238 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.- RETURNED ^SOLDIERS or more. In addition to that, the I.O.D.E. have, for a considerable time, operated a convalescent home, and we have with them a somewhat similar arrangement to that with the Khaki League, except that we provide the building for the former. By the Chairman: Q. Do you find that these arrangements with independent philanthropic bodies work out satisfactorily? — A. Not generally speaking. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Why do you make them then ? The Chairman: In some cases they were in existence in the early stage of the game. The Witness: They were in existence before we began our work, and there is a great deal of feeling on the part of people in different localities — they want to help. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. I suppose they helped you over the time until you got your institutions started? — A. We will go a long way and put up with some inconvenience in our administration rather than offend some of these people who are anxious to help us. By the Chairman: Q. They were in the field before the Hospitals Commission in many cases, and helped when there was nobody else to help. — A. The I.O.D.E. have done a most excel- lent work among the men who have not gone overseas. We pay them 60 cents a day per man, and we give them quarters in the Immigration Building at Winnipeg, where we also have a clearing depot. Q. What do they give for the 60 cents a day? — A. They feed the men. Q. You supi^ly the building? — A. Yes, and the orderlies, etc. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. And beds ? — A. They supply the beds, which were all given as a matter of fact. Perhaps I had better say that at Winnipeg where we have a considerable number of out patients, we shall soon have magnificent accommodation in the Old Agricultural Col- lege that is being made over to us by the Manitoba Government free. By the Chairman: Q. What number will you be able to accommodate there? — A. Practically any number we want according to what buildings we put up there. To begin with, I suppose, it will give us 600. Q. Ample for all your needs? — A. Oh, yes, and for a long time ahead. Then in Kegina we have a college which has been loaned to us by the Synod of Qu'Appelle, the St. Chad's College. It has room, or had room according to my measurement of the building, for 70 patients. But owing to the fact that a good deal of space has had to be taken up for the administration of our unit and for vocational purposes, we are only able now to get 45 men in. Q. For sleeping? — A. Yes. But we are making arrangements to take over another place in Regina. We have recently taken over the Y.M.C.A. building in Saskatoon which will give us accommodation for 150. Q. That is a modern building? — A. Oh, yes, absolutely a modern building. Then the next step is to Calgary, where we have a hotel at Ogden. This hotel was loaned by the Calgarj' Malting and Brewing Company to the Alberta Red Cross Society, and . by them fixed up as a convalescent hospital. Up to recently we had a similar arrange- ment with that society in the operation of these buildings, as wo have with some of these other organizations, but we have recently had to change that, and to-day they are helping us by turning over to us the supplies that are given to them, and also by making certain purchases. • We reimburse them for their outlay, whatever their actual out-of- pocket expenses are. We have found that arrangement is working very satisfactorily. [Mr. E. H. ScammelL] RECEPTIOX, TREATMEM' A.YI» RE-EDUCATIOX 239 By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. What would that cost be per man? — A. Do you mean the total cost including the medical service? Q. I mean the total cost. You are paying 75 cents to the Grey Nuns, Montreal, and GO cents at another place. How much does this housing scheme cost you? — A. It costs us about $1.10. Q. Per man? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. You do not have to supply orderlies and beds, do you? — A. We supply orderlies. Q. Do you pay $1.10 for what costs you in Montreal 75 cents ? — A. It costs us that amount by the time we reckon our medical service, nurses, orderlies, and so forth. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. And what are you paying the Khaki League? — A. To the Khaki League we are paying 75 cents, plus these extra charges. In paying 75 cents a day it costs us more to feed the men than if we were feeding them ourselves; we can feed the men for less than that amount. In the case of the Calgary Eed Cross Society we were paying them originally 90 cents a day, and they were employing all the help necessary. We reduced the payment to 75 cents and then found it was too much. The cost of feeding a man varies from month to month. It varies according to locality and it also varies somewhat according to the condition of the men who are in the home at the time. The sum of 33 to 40 cents per day covers all our cost for food. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Why are you paying these people at Ogden $1.10 ?— A. That is the total cost, which includes coal and salaries of medical men, nurses, orderlies and so on. All the expenses that go to the ruiniing of the institution work out at about that sum a month. By the Chairman: Q. Will you now proceed with your statement? You have got as far as Ogden? — A. At Calgary also we have taken over the Immigration Building, which we use as a clearing dei)ot, and as sleeping quarters for any men who require to sleep at Calgary. At Edmonton we have taken over the hospital at South Edmonton, known as the Strathcona Hospital. I made a note when Colonel ^farlow was speaking, that he said there were no active treatment hospitals in Canada under the Commission, that we have not a proper active treatment hospital. We have taken over this hospital lock, stock and barrel. We have a complete staff there. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Is not that an awful distance to send men from the coast to Strathcona Hospital? — A. It is only for Western men and has accommodation for 150 men. At Esquimau, we have the old Naval Hospital, which is probably our most suitable convalescent home, with room for 110; we have recently taken another place, a few miles from Victoria, known as Resthaven, Sidney, with accommodation for 160. It was a very fine week-end hotel, which was put up in the beomtime, is elegantly furnished, but it has been a dead loss to the owners, and they have let us have it for $250 per month. Q. Is this Esquimau Hospital that you spoke of the old Military Hospital? — A. ■No, sir, it is the old Naval Hospital, which had not been used for some years; we took the building and have made an ideal place of it. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] 240 SPECIAL COinJITTEE—C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. How long- have you liad this? — A. The old Naval Hospital was opened in November, 1915. By the Chairman : Q. You have nothing to do with the old Military Hospital, mentioned in Dr. Marlow's report? — A. No, nothing- at all. Witness retired. The Committee adjourned. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] APPENDIX TO No. 3 PROCEEDINGS PAPERS sitb:^[itted by lt.-col. potter in connection with EVIDENCE OF MARCH 1. CIRCULAR LETTERS AND INSTRUCTIONS RE MEDICAL EXAMINATION OF RECRUITS IN CANADA PERIOD: DECEMBER 14, 1915, TO FEBRUARY 12, 1917 with statistics regarding military patients in civil and MILITARY hospitals. 28277—16 MEMORANDUM OF INFORMATION GIVEN TO PARLIAMENTARY COM- ]\[ITTEE BY THE A./D.G.M.S. WITH APPROVAL OF THE ADJUTANT- GENERAL, 1-3-17. 1. Pages 1 to 45, copies of Instructions sent out, at various times, relative to standards of physical fitness for recruits. 2. Pages 46 to 50, Statistical returns of sick, January 1, 1916, to October 31, 1916. 3. Page 51, numbers and distributiton of returned soldiers under treatment by A.^.C, February 22, 1917. 4. Pages 52 to 54, Venereal disease, October, November and December, troops in Cauflda. 5. Pages 55 to 60, Hospital accommodation, Military and Civil, in Canada. 6. Pages 61 to 64, Hospital Statistics, December, 1916. 7. Information regarding examination by Medical Boards of C.E.F. Units, now I mobilized in Canada. 8. Pages 66 to 81, Rules for the examination of recruits, 1916 and 1917. (Those for 1917 brought up to date and to be published soon for issue.) 9. Page 82, State of Special Service Units in Canada as regards eventual fitness for overseas service. 10. M.F.B. 227, Form for Medical Board Proceedings when an invalid is con- sidered for discharge (to pension, to Sanatorium, Hospital or Convalescent Home, etc.). 11. Full information received February 28, regarding hospital accommodation, ^[ilitary and Civil, Military District No. 2. Headquarters, Ottawa, 13th August, 1915. ORDERS AND REGULATIONS AS TO ENLISTMENT IN THE CANADIAN OVERSEAS EXPEDITIONARY FORCES. QUALIFICATIOKS FOR ENLISTMENT. 1. A British subject by birth or naturalization. 2. Between the ages of 18 and 45. 3. At least 5' 2" in height for all corps except Artillery ; and 5' 4" for the Artillery. 4. Declared " Medically fit " by a duly appointed Ofiicer : — i.e. (a) Have good eyesight, hearing and teeth. {h) Have normal heart action and sound lungs. (c) Be free from skin diseases, varicocele, varicose veins, flat feet and all other physical deformities. (li) Measure at least 33 inches around the chest if between 18 and 30 years of age, and 34 inches around the chest if between 30 and 45 years of age. 5. The decision as to physical fitness rests entirely with the ^Medical Officer, appointed to examine recruits. ^^- ^Icn who have been discharged from the service as "unfit for further service" for " misconduct " or " with a bad character " are ineligible for re-enlistment. 7. Boys of good character under 18 years of age, may be specially employed as bandsmen, drummers, buglers or trumpeters, but no boy under 18 years of age will be enlisted, without the consent of his parents or guardians. 28277— 16i 243 244 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS 8. An enlistment is a valid contract, although entered into by a person under twenty-one; and a discharge will not be granted on this account. 9. A married man is not required to obtain the written consent of his wife, and n discharge will not be granted on this account. 10. A man desiring to enlist must bear his own travelling expenses and keep until finally enlisted. TERMS OF ENLISTMENT. 11. Persons enlisting for Overseas Service with the Canadian Forces, do so for the duration of the war and for six months thereafter, should their services be required. 12. Eates of pay are laid down in App, 2 of M.O. 372, 1915. The rate of pay for a private is $1 per diem and 10 cents a day Field Allowance. SEPARATION ALLOWANCE. 13. Separation Allowance for wife or widowed mother (if only son) of $20 per month, wnll be granted from the date of enlistment, if accepted for Overseas Service. A soldier's wife is not obliged to live in Canada but Separation Allowance will be sent to her in England, if she elects to reside there. ASSIGNMENT OF PAY. 14. Pay not exceeding four-fifths of the monthly amount may be assigned to rela- tives. Assignments to be in dollars only (no cents) on forms supplied for that purpose. The maximum amount which may be assigned by a private soldier will be $25. PENSION TO SOLDIER. 15. Soldiers wounded or disabled on. Active service, receive a pension, the amount of which varies according to the gravity of the disability, the probable period of its duration and the rank of the person injured. PENSION TO WIFEj CHILDREN AND WIDOWED IMOTHER. A pension is also granted to the wife, and widowed mother of a soldier, (if only son and sole support) killed in action or dying or totally disabled as the result of Active Service. DISCHARGES. 16. Discharge by Purchase cannot be claimed as a right. Application for a Dis- charge by an enlisted man can be made only to the O.C. Battalion or other unit to which the man belongs and will not be granted except in very special circumstances. Any such application must in order to receive consideration be made within the first three months after enlistment and is conditioned on payment of $50, but in no event is there any right to a discharge during continuance of war. HOW TO ENLIST. 17. Apply to the nearest Recruiting Officer or to the Headquarters of the Division or District at London (Ontario), Toronto, Kingston, Montreal, Quebec, Halifax, Win- nipeg, Calgary or Victoria, nearest to his place of residence. EXPERT MECHANICS, 18. Expert Mechanics will be enlisted in corps requiring their services as such In other cases they should be refen-ed to Headquarters at Ottawa. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDl CATION 245 II. Q. 593-6-2. COPY. Circular Letter. II.Q.593-3-7 K.D.M. DEPARTMENT OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE. Ottawa, 14tli December, 1915. From the Adjutant-General, Canadian ^lilitia. To the Officers Commanding Divisions and Districts. Medical Inspection of Recruits. Sir, — I have the honour, by direction, to state that it is desirable not only that -pocial care should be taken at the time of the Medical Inspection, prior to enlistment, that men who are not physically fit should not be enlisted, but also, that subsequent steps should be taken from time to time so that men, who have been enlisted, but who are not in fact medically fit, may not be retained in the service for any extended period, but should be discharged without delay. 2. It is, therefore, directed, that a Medical Board of two Officers in each Division and District shall inspect all recruits at stated intei'vals. 3. Such Medical Board shall inspect recruits either at central points at which they may be concentrated in certain Divisions and Districts, or shall visit the different places at whieli the men have been recruited, and are being billeted, and inspections are to be made by such Board at least three times during the winter months. 4. In each case, where a recruit is found physically unfit, the proceedings of ^if.F.N. 227 will be placed on file at Divisional or District Headquarters, and the dis- charge will be carried out under paragraph 322 (2), (c) K.R., & O.C.M., 1910. 5. The proceedings of such Medical Boards need not be sent to Headquarters, Ottawa, but can be retained at Divisional or District Headquarters. 6. A list of discharges so carried out sbould be forwarded to the Secretary, Mili- tia Council, Ottawa, after each of such inspections, stating the nature of the physical disability of each man so discharged, the name of the Medical Officer by whom he was passed on enlistment and the name of the Medical Officer of the Battalion. 7. The attention of the Medical Examiners of recruits should be called to the Regulations applicable to careless examination. I have the honour to be, sir, Your obedient servant, (Sgd.) W. E. HODGINS, • Brigadipr-General, A/ Adjutant-General. K.D.M. Circular Ltfter. IT.Q. 593-3-7. 9-2-lfi. rrom the Director-General of ]\redical Services, Ottawa, Out., Tn the A.D.S.M.S. Divisions and Districts. : Medical Examination of Recruits. 1 liavo to invite your attention to the subject marginally noted. It has been brouglit to attention that Medical Examiners of recruits from time to lime pass men as fit, who are suffering from disabilities which it is expected wiU be corrected by surgical treatment carried out by the Military authorities after the men have been enlisted. .In order that tliere may be no misunderstanding on this point, action should be taken to inform all Medical Examiners of recruits (Div. and Dis.) men are not to be 246 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS passed as fit with tlie iuteutiou tliat disabilities, such as referred to, will be corrected by operation after the men have been enlisted. This matter is brought particularly to your attention as there are numbers of men being passed as " fit " who are, after enlistment, found to be suffering from' Hernia, Varicocele, Varicose Veins, etc., and who obviously should nev^r have been enlisted. The enlistment of this class of recruits has resulted in much waste of public money, which every effort should be made to pren'ent. Kindly forward a copy of the letter of instructions sent out in this connection. (Sgd.) J. L. POTTER, Lieut.-Colonel, A/D.G.M.S. Circular Letter. A.B. H.Q. 1982-1-41. April 4, 191G. From — The Adjutant-General, Canadian Militia. To- physical STANDARD FOR RECRUITS, C.E.F. Sir, — I have the honour, by direction, to invite your further attention to the sub- ject marginally noted. It is considered desirable that all men physically fit now employed on Guard \ duties, etc., in Canada be given an opportunity to proceed on Overseas Service and to \ replace them as far as possible by men who are considered as unfit for Overseas Ser- vice but who are not by their disability prohibited from performing such duties as they may be detailed for .on Home Service in Canada. The usual Standardij of physical fitness. (1) For those returned from Overeas or unfit for further service abroad, or (2) For those who have on presenting themselves in Canada been found physi- cally unfit on account of a minor disability may be relaxed to the following extent. Men unfit for Service ''Overseas" may be considered as "fit" for Home Service. (1) If suffering from a disability which does not prevent efficiency for the special duty on which to be employed. (2) If duty' on which to be employed is not considered as lively to aggravate the disablity on account of which the previous finding " Unfit " was made. (3) If the disability is not expected to progressively become worse. (4) If previous findings of " Unfit " was not on account of the following disabi- lities. Epilepsy. Insanity. Tuberculosis. Chronic Nephritis. 1 have the honour to be, sir. Your obedient servant, Colonel, A/D. G.M.8. for A/ Adjutant-General RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 247 H.Q. 593-3-7. Department of Militia and Defence, Ottawa, April 26, 1916. From the Adjutant-General, Canadian ]\[ilitia. To Physical Examination of Recruits. Sir, — I have the honour, by direction, to invite your attention to the subject marginally noted, with special reference to cases of pulmonary tuberculosis which have developed from time to time amongst the newly enlisted recruits. It is requested that the attention of all concerned be drawn to the need of the very careful examination of the lungs at the time the recruits arc being passed as fit for ovcrseaes service. A large number of cases of pulmonary tuberculosis have developed amongst those enlisted in the overseas forces, and having regard to the short time which elapsed between enlistment and the date when the disease was detected, it would appear that there is good ground for suspecting that a number of the men have been enlisted in the Canadian Expeditionary Force, who, at the time of enlistment, were suffering from i)ulmonary tuberculosis, the result being that, after a short period of service, the men have to be sent to a sanatorium and maintained at the public expense for more or loss extended periods. Kindly give this matter your immediate attention, and notify Headquarters, Ottawa, of the action which is being taken to bring this matter to the attention of all concerned. I have the honour to be, sir. Your obedient servant, Major-General, A/ Adjutant-General. W.M.K. H.Q. 1812. May 26, 1916. From the Adjutant-General, Canadian Militia. To the O.C, M.D. Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 4. Physical Requirements, No. 1 Construction Battalion, C.E.F. Sir. — I have the honour, by direction, to inform you that standards of physical fitness for recruits for No. 1 Overseas Construction Battalion will be the same as for infantry battalions, with the exception that standards of vision as required in the cases of the '' Canadian Army Service Corps, Canadian Army Medical Corps, Cana- dian Ordnance Corps, and for drivers of the Canadian Artillery or Canadian Engi- neers," will be considered as sufficient. I have the honour to be, sir. Your obedient servant, Major-General. A/Adjutant-General. 248 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS H.Q. 1982-1-41. Dkpautmi:-\t of Militia and Di:fi;n'ci:. Ottawa, May 31, 1916. From the Adjutant General, Canadian Militia. To Medical Examination of Recruits for Enlistment for Overseas Service. Sir, — I have the honour, by direction, to forward herewith copy of a communi- cation received from the General Officer Commanding Canadian?, ShornclifEe Camp, England. It is requested that you will kindly have the matter brovight to the attention of the Medical Officers who carried out the examination and inform them that they must, in future, be more careful in carrying out the medical examination of recruits. It should be impressed upon all Medical Examiners of Recruits in the District that the careless medical examination of recruits results in much waste of public funds and causes great inconvenience to the various units in which the men have enlisted. If possible, some explanation shovild be secured from the Medical Officers (oncerned as to why the men, particularly referred to in the attached list, have been passed as lit. I have the honour to be, sir, Your obedient servant, Major-General, A/ Adjutant-General. (FMcKB/AB). Circular letter. - H.Q. 60-4-19. Dkpartmkxt of Militia and Defence. Ottawa, Ont., June 10, 1916. From the Adjutant-General, Canadian Militia, To The Special Inspection of Troops for Venereal Disease before Einharl-ation for Overseas. Sm, — I have the honour, by direction, to forward for your earnest consideration a copy of a letter from the Assistant Director of Medical Services, Canadians, Shoru- cliffe, England, who has reported the large number of cases of venereal disease occurring amongst the Canadian troops before their arrival in England. It is requested that careful attention be given this report and that early action be taken to prevent recurrence of the condition reix)rted. Careless medical inspection of troops prior to departure for overseas is responsible for many men having to enter hospital there immediately upon their arrival; hence accommodation needed for casualties from the front is filled by cases that should havt, been treated in Canada. When at the final inspection of troops before proceeding oversea?, (and such inspection should be made at the latest possible date) oases of venereal disease are found, they are not to be permitted to proceed but are to be sent to the nearest ^lilitary Hospital for treatment. Commanding Officers of Units or Drafts will be held responsible that the Medical Officer has made a thorough physical examination of the personnel of the Unit or Draft about to proceed overseas and will furnish a certificate signed by the Medical Officer of the unit or such other Medical Officer .as may be detailed for this work to the effect that there are no eases of venereal disease amongst the personnel imder his command. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 249 The attention of all concerned sliould be drawn to paragraph 418 K. R. and O. Canada 1910. I have the honour to be, sir, Your obedient servant, Major-Geneml, A/Adjutanf-Genrral. Circular Letter. ' H.Q. 1812 (FMcKB/AB). Departafent of Militia and Defence, Ottawa, Ont., June 16, 1916. From The Adjutant-General, Canadian Militia, To 0. C. Districts. Physical Standards for Recruits for Forestry Battalions. Sir, — I have the honour, by direction, to inform you that where men in forestry battalions are to be employed as labourers only, and are not to be con- sidered as enlisted for general service overseas, the ordinary standards may be relaxed as follows: — (1) Standard of vision to be the same as for C.A.S.C., C.A.M.C, or C.O.C., i.e., if he can read D-80 at 20 feet, with the left eye, without glasses, and not less than D-lOO, with the right eye, at the same distance, without glasses, he will be considered "Fit." (2) The absence of a finger on either or both hands, provided it is not the thumb or forefinger which is missing, will not be a cause for rejection. (3) Absence of one or two toes on either or both feet, provided it be not the great toe, will not be a cause for rejection. (4) Age limit to be 48 years, provided such men are specially qualified as millwrights, saw filers, etc. I have the honour to be, sir, Your obedient servant, Major-General, A/ Adjutant-General. Circular Letter. H.Q.593-1-23. (FMcKB/AB). Department op Militia and Defence, Ottawa, Ont., June 16, 1916. From The Adjutant-General, Canadian Militia, To Defective Virion. Inspection of Recruits: Sir, — I have the honour, by direction, to invite your attention to the subject marginally noted, with special reference to those cases which might ordinarily 7 he discharged under H.Q. 16-1-29, dated August 10, 1915. When men have been issued iniiforms, and have had the benefit of more or less extended periods of training, it is desirable, where possible, to retain them 250 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETU RS ED .SOLDIERS in the service; tlierefore, a soldier will not be discharged for defective vision, unless the defect is due to — (a) Squint; or (b) Some morbid condition of the eyes or lids of either eye, liable to aggravation or recurrence. The defect of vision, however, must not be such that it cannot be corrected, by the aid of glasses, up to the standard required for recruits on enlistment. In cases such as above referred to, glasses may be provided, and will be replaced when necessary (provided loss or breakage is not due to negligence) at the public expense. I have the honour to be, sir, Your obedient servant, Major-General^ A/ Adjutant-General. (WMR.) Circular Letter. H.Q. 593-1-23. DEPARTMENT OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE, Ottawa, Ont., July 8, 1916. From — •■ The Director-General of Medical Services, Ottawa, Ont. To— The Assistant Director of Medical Services, Military Districts and Camps. Defective Vision — Inspection of Recruits. With reference to Headquarters' circular letter 593-1-23 of June 16, 1916, relative to the subject margii;^lly noted; and also with reference to the supply of glasses generally for those who may require them; it is requested that" you will kindly report what facilities there are locally for the purchase of glasses, and whether you can suggest any way in which glasses may be provided in (M.D. or Camp) more economically than under present arrangements. Colonel, A/D.G.M.S. (T.B.) Circular Letter. H.Q. 297-1-31. DEPARTMENT OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE. 0tta,\va, July 26, 1916. From — The Adjutant-General, Canadian Militia. To— Examination of Recruits for Medical Service. Suj, — I have the honour, by direction, to forward under separate cover, for your information and guidance please, 10 copies of the rules set forth for examination of Recruits for Special Service in Canada. Please notify all concerned. I have the honour to be, sir, Your obedient servant, Major-General, A/ Adjutant-General. RECEPTIOy, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 251 July 20, 1916. (T.B.) H.Q. 297-1-31. NOTES ON THE ENAMINATIOX OF llECRUITS FOR SPECIAL SERVICE. Men for Special Service in Canada, in addition to those who pass Standard Requirements, may be taken from two other general classes: — (1) Men Invalided (from Overseas or Canada) who have a slight dis- ability which unfits them for Overseas Service, but whose disability will not render them unfit for some form of Special Service. (2) New Recruits who have some slight physical defect or disability which, while it leaves them below the standard required for Overseas Service, does not render them unfit for less strenuous Special Service. These two classes of men may be used to replace soldiers who are willing to pro- ceed overseas, and who are at present employed on garrison or guard duty, as military police, or on clerical or other work. Owing to the constant demand for men for overseas service, it is considered expedient to substitute, as far as is consistent with efficiency, "Home Service" for "Overseas Service" men. It is impossible to establish definite rules applicable to all cases, as to how far the usual standards of physical fitness may be relaxed. Each case must be decided upon its own merits. In the case of recruits who may have been rejected for overseas service by the local medical examiner, on account of some slight physical defects or disabilities, but whose disabilities Are not sufficiently serious to render them unfit for special service, a Medical Examining Board of three members will be assembled by the A.D.M.S. of the military district concerned, for the purpose of making a supplementary medical examination. In any area where it is impossible to assemble a Medical Examining Board, the report of the local medical examiner will be accepted. Classification of Men for Special Service. (a) Fit for general duty on special service in Canada. (fe) Fit for garrison duty on special service in Canada. (c) Fit for labour purposes on special service in Canada. {d) Fit for sedentary work, as clerks, etc., on special service in Canada. It nuist be borne in mind by tlie ]\Iodical Examining Board that a recruit who is not physically fit for any branch of the service, in Canada or overseas, is liable to become, at a future date, a charge upon the public. Hence, while the standard for special service may be slightly lower or different from that for overseas service, it is necessary to be exceedmgly careful lest too great laxity be shown in passing candidates. There will necessarily be many distinctions between the two standards of fitness, but a few general rules may be laid down : General Rules. 1. He must be physically fit for the duty on which it is proposed to employ him; and the Report must state any duty on which he should not be employed. 2. He must not be suffering from any disability which is liable to be pro- gressive in character. 3. If he has some disability, it must be of such a character that it will not be aggravated by the work of the branch of the service in which it is proposed to employ him. 252 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS 4. In each case there shall be no disability other than the one or more specified and passed by the Examining Medical Board. 5. lie must have no organic disease; and he must sign a statement to the effect that he has never suffered from insanity, tuberculosis, epilepsy or fits. Special Rules. Modifications of the ordinary standard of fitness, which may be noted with refer- ence to the examination of men for Home Service only, in Canada. The following may be accepted: 1. Standard of height; minimum -i' 10". 2. Age. Men between 45 and 48 years of age, provided they are otherwise physically fit according to the Overseas standard. 3. Chest Measurement; minimum 31" ; but the lungs must be normal, and family history free from tuberculosis. (In case of doubt, a certificate from the family physician should be secured.) 4. Vision, (a) Any man whose vision may be brought up to normal, in both eyes, by the aid of glasses, provided the visual defect is not due to existing disease. (&) Men who have lost one eye, or the sight thereof, but whose vision, with- out a glass, in the remaining eye is normal, (provided the normal eye is the "shooting" eye, left or right). (Squint, or any morbid condition of the eyes or lids of either eye, liable to the risk of aggravation or recurrence, will caiise the rejection of the candidate.) N.B. — Glasses will be provided free and replaced, if required, at public expense once every twelve months. 5. Varicocele or Varicose Veins, not of a degree to render unfit for sedent- ary occupations. 6. Flat Feet, of slight or moderate degree, not suflSciently marked to render unfit for office work. The folloiving will not constitute unfitness. 1. Loss of one or two fingers on either hand, excepting thumb or forefinger, provided such loss does not interfere with his ability to do the work at which it is proposed to employ him. 2. Loss of any toe or toes, except the great toe. 3. Loss of one foot or leg, in invalided soldiers, who can wear and use an artificial limb. (These men may be accepted for clerical or other suitable duty.) Acceptance will be subject in all cases to the ^Medical Records which may be on file at Militia Headquarters, coinciding with, or supporting, the decision of the Medical Examining Board as to the desirability of suggested employment. The general grounds for rejection (with the exceptions above mentioned) as given in " Rules for Inspection of Recruits, 1916 ", shall also apply to men for Home Service in Canada. The Medical Examining Board will be permitted to use discretionary powers in the approval of any slightly disabled men, who, in their opinion, may be utilized for some branch of the Special Service, but whose disability is not specifically mentioned in the foregoing paragraphs. N.B. — The Attestation Papers and other Documents relating to men employed on Special Service, who are not up to Overseas Standard, are to be marked in red with the word " Special." 25-7-16. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 253 Draft Circular Letter. ISQ. H.Q. 54-21-51-9. 26-8-16. From the Adjutant General, Canadian Militia, To Officers Commanding Military Districts and Camps, and Inspector Generals, E. and W. Canada. Instructions re Medical Inspection of Troops, and Reports to he rendered regarding same. Sir, — I have the honour, by direction, to invite your attention to a report which has been received from the General Officer Commanding Canadians, in connection with the subject marginally noted, and which brings to attention a serious condition of affairs with regard to " unfits " amongst the troops sent overseas. The following classes are especially noted: — (1) The large number of men over age. (2) Physically unfit from various causes which should be easily detected prior to embarkation, such as hernia, heart disease, etc. (3) Active venereal diseases at the time of leaving Canada. (4) Developing cases of infectious diseases. In order that a detailed report may be furnished, complete copies of the overseas report are being prepared and will be forwarded as soon as possible with covering letter of instructions. It is requested that the physical and medical examinations of the soldiers in mobilization camps, billets, camps of instruction, etc., be given very special and immediate attention as it is quite as important as the medical examination of the recruit. These examinations of troops must be frequently and regularly conducted in order to safeguard the health of the individual, and the proper sanitation of the army. The following points are to be observed. All troops, as soon as possible after mobilization, should be subjected to a thorough medical examination by the M.O. of each unit concerned. This examination has three objects: — (a) To discover any physical or mental defects, disease or disabilities which may have been overlooked by the M.O. on his examination of the recruit. ib) To detect any disease which may have supervened since enlistment. (c) To see that recruits are not under or over the age limit as laid down in previous instructions. N.B. — Experience indicates that the statement of a recruit as to his age is not always to be accepted without question. The examining medical officer must be guided in his decision by the " apparent " rather than the " stated " age. If on physical examination, the recruit is evidently past the age limit, e-g-, by the state of his arteries or eyes, as evidenced by tlie arcus senilis, etc., even though his actual age by years is within the limit, he should be rejected. A report of such examination, including a nominal roll of unfits, will be furnished by the M.O. to the A.D.M.S. of that [Military District or Camp concerned, who will take such action as may be indicated to have the cases of unfits properly dealt with. In this preliminary examination the " Rules for Examination of Recruits, 1916," and "Notes on Examination of Recruits for Special Service" will be taken into con- sideration, and decisions made accordingly. A weekly examination of all units should also be made for the purpose of dis- covering venereal, contagious or parisitic diseases, and for the purpose also of treating and controlling the same. 254 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS It should be impressed upon the regimental or examining M.O. that the import- ance of thoroughness cannot be overestimated. Epidemics of various kinds may thus be prevented, and the mistake of sending unfits overseas reduced to a minimum. For medical examination, men should be stripped, and particular attention is to be paid to the following points : — (1) All skin parasites, such as head or body lice, itch mites, etc. (2) Rashes of contagious diseases, such as: Measles, German Measles, Scarletina; Small Pox, Chicken Pox, etc. (3) Venereal Diseases: Syphilis, Gonorrhea, Soft Chancre, etc. The foreskin should be well retracted during this examination. The examining M.O. will furnish the A.D.M.S. of the District or Camp weekly with a Venereal Disease Eeport, and a Contagious Disease Report, showing the number and character of the cases discharged in the unit during the week, together with a Nominal Roll of such cases. Summaries of these reports (but not the individual names) will be forwarded monthly to the O.C. of the Military Dsitrict concerned, for transmission to the Secre- tary of the Militia Council. As near the date of embarkation as possible, a careful medical inspection must be made of all Officers, Warrant Officers, N.C.O.'s and Men for overseas service; arrange- ments to be made by the A.D.M.S. of the District or Camp concerned. Officers Commanding units or drafts will be responsible that every opportunity is given for such medical inspections, and will prepare a certificate in triplicate to the effect that such inspection has been carried out prior to the departure of the troops concerned. The three copies of this certificate will be disposed of as follows: — (1) 1 copy to be retained by the O.C. the unit or draft, to be produced for the information of the overseas authorities upon arrival at destination. (2 The other two copies to be forwarded to the O.C, Military District or Camp Commandant concerned. One of these to be forwarded to the Secretary of the Militia Council, and the other to be retained for reference at Headquarters of the District. These certificates will be signed by the O.C. the unit or draft, and by the examin- ing Medical Officer (copy of certificate form attached). The strictest attention must be paid to the above instructions to prevent the recurrence of the serious situation reported by the overseas authorities. I have the honour to be, sir, Your obedient servant, Major- General J A/ Adjutant-General. FORM OF CERTIFICATE TO BE USED WHEN TROOPS PROCEED OVERSEAS. Military District No Place Date This is to certify that the Officers, N.C.O.'s and Men of the (insert name of unit or draft) have been medically examined and found fit for Overseas Service by the examining Medical Officer. The medical examination has been carried out at the latest date possible prior to entraining or embarkation. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDDCATION 255 The personnel of the (unit or draft) under my command are within the age limits required by the " Instructions governing Organization and Administration for Cana- dian Expeditionary Force Units, Appendix 3, 1916." (signed) Officer Commanding Unit or Draft). Place Date This is to certify that I (or We) have medically examined the officers, N.C-0. and Men of (unit or draft) and find them physically fit for overseas service, (signed) (Medical Officer or Medical Board). Copy. Circular Letter. A.B. H.Q. 593-1-23. DeP.\RTMENT of !^[ILITIA AND DEFENCE^ Ottawa, Ont., August 24, 1916. From The Adjutant-General, Canadian Militia. To The General Officer Commanding, Military District No. 5, Quebec, Que. New Standard of Vision. Sir,— I have the honour, by direction, to inform you that the Standard of Vision at present required of recruits for the Canadian Overseas Forces, and which are as follows, — 1. If a recruit can read D-60, at 20 feet, or better with each eye, without glasses, he will be considered " Fit." 2. If he can read D-20, at 20 feet, with the right eye without glasses, and not less than D-80, at the same distance with the left eye, without glasses, he will be considered " Fit." 3. If he can read D-20, at 20 feet, with the left eye, without glasses, and not less than D-120 with the right eye, at the same distance, without glasses, he will be considered " Fit " for the Canadian Arniy Service Corps, Canadian Army Medical Corps, the Canadian Ordnance Corps or the Forestry Battalions, and for drivers of the Canadian Artillery, or Canadian Engineers. (H.Q. 593-1-23, November 19, 1915, volume). Have been reduced and the following standards iutll he considered as sufficient: — 1. If a recruit can read D-SO at 20 feet or better with each eye, without glasses, he will be considered " Fit." 2. If he can read D-80 at 20 feet, with the right eye, without glasses, and not less tlian D-200 at 20 feet, with the left eye, without glasses, he will be con- sidered " Fit." 256 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F. -RETURN ED SOLDIERS 3. If he can read D-200 at 20 feet, with the right eye, without glasses, and not less than D-80, with the left eye, at the same distance without glasses, he will be considered " Fit " for the Canadian Army Service Corps, Canadian Army Medical Corps, Canadian Ordnance Corps, or the Forestry Battalions, and for drivers of the Canadian Artillery or Canadian Engineers. All concerned should be informed without delay and action should be taken to encourage those who have previously applied for overseas service, and who were rejected on account of defective vision, to again present themselves for examination, with a view to ascertaining whether, with the reduced standards of vision, then can be accepted for overseas service. I have the honour to be, sir. Your obedient servant, (Sgd.) W. E. HODGIXS, Major-Ge7ieral, A /A dju ta n t-General. Copy. Circular Letter. A.B. H.Q. 593-1-23. DEP.\RTiiENT OP Militia and Defence^ Ottawa, Ont., September 1, 1916. From The Director-General of Medical Services, Ottawa, Ont. To The A.D.M.S., Districts and Camps. Standard of Vision. Your attention is invited to the subject marginally noted. Very recently a very marked reduction has been made in the Standards of Vision for recruits, and it is therefore most desirable that this reduction be given careful supervision. It would appear from reports received from overseas, that the eyes of recruits are very carelessly examined; in fact it would almost appear in many cases they were not examined at all. Every effort has been made to distribute eye-test cards in sufficient quantitie?. so that all medical examiners of recruits may be supplied. Will you kindly ascertain whether a sufficient supply of eye-test cards has been sent to Military Districts or Camp, and if you require more advise by wire how many. It should also be ascertained whether the medical examiners or recruits are examining eyes under propei" conditions. It is suggested that in many instances it is likely the full distance of 20 feet is not insited upon. (Sgd.) J. L. POTTEE, A/D.G.M.S. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDLCATWN 257 Circular Letter. (FMcKB/AB) H.Q. 593-1-23. Department of Militia and Defence, Ottawa, Ont., September 5, 1916. From The Adjutant-General, Canadian Militia. To Pioneer, Construction and Labour Battalions. New Standard Vision. Sir— With further reference to H.Q. 593-1-23, dated August 24, 1916, I have the honour, by direction, to inform you that the New Standard of Vision for the margin- ally noted Units will, in future, be the same as that referred to in paragraph 3 of aforementioned letter, which reads as follows: — (3) If he can read D-200 at 20 feet, with the right eye, without glasses, and not less than D-80, with the left eye, at the same distance without glasses, he will be considered " Fit " for the C.A.S.C, C.A.M.C., C.O.C. or the Forestry Battalions, and for drivers of the Canadian Artillery, or Canadian Engineers. Please notify all concerned. I have the honour to be, sir, Your obedient servant, Majov-General. A/ Adjutant-General. H.Q. 593-3-7. Sept. 12, 1916 Ottawa, Feb. 7,1917. From The Adjutant-General, Canadian Militia. To Medical Services in connection with Recruiting. SiH, — I have the honour, by direction, to forward herewith copy of the recom- mendation made and approved by the Militia Council with regard to the Medical Services in connection with recruiting, which reads as follows: — 1. That more care be exercised, especially with reference to '" over '' and " underage," by the Officers and N.C.O.'s. engaged in recruiting. (Men over or under the age limit should not be approached 1)y recruiting agents and where such men seek to enlist, their attention should be called to the seriousness of a false oath in attestation.) 2. A preliminary medical examination only should be made by the local examiner, who may be an A.^f.C. Officer or a Civilian Practitioner, properly appointed. (The recruiting Officer should satisfy himself that the Medical Examiner has received proper instructions re the conducting of such examin- ations from the A.D.M.S. of the district concerned.) 3. As soon as a recruit is passed as " Fit," at this preliminary medical examination, he should be sent to the nearest " Mobilization Centre " to appear b^^fore the ^[edieal Examining Board. If he passes this second examination as "Fit" he will be sent to the Headquarters of the Overseas Unit for which he was recruited. No equipment or clothing to be provided until he reports to his unit 28277—17 258 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS 4. In the case of men rejected by tlie Medical Board, necessary transport to and from the Mobilization Centre with pay and allowance at Overseas rates for the number of days lost, should be granted. 5. A certificate of such rejection, to be prepared by the Medical Board; this certificate to be signed by the rejected applicant, the Officer Commanding Mob- ilization Centre, as well as by the President of the Medical Board. The form of certificate to be similar to that for Deserters : (M.F.B. 356, new series, attaclied). (These certificates might be photographed and sent to other Mobilization Centres to prevent future attempts at enlistment of men previously declared medically unfit.) 6. A weekly return of unfits to be compiled at Mobilization Centres ol Form similar to M.F.B. 238 (attached) and copies distributed to those con- cerned, e.g., to the Military District, the Eecord Office and to all other Mob- ilization Centres. 7. As soon as a recruit who has been passed by Medical Board reports to his unit, the M.O. of that unit will make a careful medical examination of him and if he has any objection to the decision of the Medical Board, will immedi- ately report to the O.C. of the unit, requesting a reconsideration of the case before any additional expense to the public is incurred, 8. That where permission is given to recruit over wide areas; in all cases, prospective recruits must be sent to the nearest Mobilization Centre for exam- ination by the Medical Board. 9. A recruit who is passed as '' fit " should report as soon as po&sible to the headquarters of his unit. 10. Mobilization Centre: Staff. (a) A Combatant Officer is charge with whatever subordinate ?taff he requires. (6) Medical Board composed of three members. An Eye and Ear Specialist to be employed at pay of his rank or at special rate of pay; whichever is more economical. The Medical Staff to be increased as necessary to meet the requirements of the Centre, (c) Suitable quarters for Medical Examinations and all necessary technical medical equipment to be furnished. 11. District Arrangements. That Military Districts be divided into areas to such advantage that Mob- ilization Centres be as few as possible with due regard to convenience and efficiency. It is requested, please, that information be forwarded without delay as to whether arrangements can be made in M.D. No. to carry out tlie scheme. If certain modifications will be necessary to make the scheme applicable in the District, kindly favour with your remarks at the earliest date possible. The A.D.M.S., M.D. jSTo. should be requested to submit a Eequisition for the provision of any necessary technical equipment for such ^lobilization Centres as may require same. I have the honour to be, Sir, Your obedient servant. Major General, A /Adjutant-General. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 259 Department of Militia and Defence, Ottawa, October 3, 1916. From The Adjutant-General, Canadian Militia, To . . ' Physical Standards of Recruits. Sir, — I have the honour, by direction, to forward herewith memorandum by the A/D.G.M.S., which it is desired copies be made of and forwarded to each Medical Officer and civilian medical practitioner examining recruits in M.D. No. It has been very difficult to impress Medical Officers with their responsibilities as regards the passing of men as physically fit for overseas service and the A/D. G.M.S. suggests that an appeal should be made to them from a professional point of view. I have the honour to be, sir. Your obedient servant, Major-General. A/ Adjutant-General. MEMOKANDUM FOR A.D.M.S. Physical Standards of Becruits. "With reference to the marginally noted subject, your attention is again invited to the very great importance of insisting that all recruits for the C.E.F. be examined witli special care. A great deal of criticism of the medical profession, not only in the A.M.C., but of tlie civilian medical practitioners as well, with reference to the medical examination of recniits, has been made. It is desirable that all who are carrying out this duty should be impressed with the serious responsibility which they assume when recruits for over- seas service are passed as " fit." A recruit's acceptance for overseas service depends primarily on a medical cer- tificate of fitness; hence it is essential that no other than medical considerations should influence the medical examiner of recruits in making his decision. A man is either " fit " or "unfit" in accordance with the regulations and no " special employment," except as laid down in the regulations, should be pei-mitted to modify the decision. In some instances the anxiety to secure recruits may have influenced medical examiners to relax the standards of physical fitness, as laid down; but they should be reminded that such relaxations is eventually productive of serious results. The certificate of a medical examiner is given as a professional opinion, and is respected and accepted as such by the Department of Militia. Examiners should bear n mind that their decisions are taken in good faith, and upon their certificates is based the expenditure of public funds necessary in the training and maintenance of a soldier of the Expeditionary Force. It is hoped that medical examiners will remember that an opinion as to a recruit's fitness or unfitness for overseas service reiiuires the same care and the same judgment r.? any other professional opinion. ^^ ill you kindly bring this matter to the attention of all concerned, for their earnest consideration. (Sgd.) J. L. POTTER, Colonel A/D.0.M.8., (FMcKB/WMR) 2S277— iTi 260 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Circular Letter. H.Q. 1812. Department of Militia and Defence, Ottawa, Ont., October 7, 1916. From The Adjutant-General, Canadian Militia. To The O.'s C. Districts and Camps, and Inspectors-General of E. and W. Canada. Enlistment of Men in the C.E.F., with physical defects. Forestry Battalions. Sir, — ^ith further reference to the marginally noted subject and to Head- quarters communication 1812, dated June 16, 1916, I have the honour, by direction, to request that whenever men in Forestry Battalions, who have some physical defect (as referred to in that letter) are passed as " fit " the defect or minor disability shall be noted on the attestation paper in each case. I have the honour to be, Sir, Your obedient servant, M ajar-General, A. Adjutant-General. (WMR) Circular Letter. H.Q. 593-3-7. Department of Militia and Defence, Ottawa, Ont., October 10, 1916. From The Adjutant-General, Canadian Militia. To The Officers Commanding Districts and Camps, and Inspectors-General oi E. and W. Canada. Physical Examination of Recruits. Operations suhsequent to enlistment to render physically fit. Sir, — I have the honour, by direction, to invite your attention to the subject marginally noted. It is again brought to your attention the undesirability of enlist ing men in the C. E. F. who require, subsequent to enlistment, operations to Tende: them physically fit. Instances have been noted Avhere men have been promised if they enlist sucl operations would be performed by the military authorities. Cases so enlisted aiu operated upon must in any case be unfit for the work of training for more or le.^ extended periods, and it is not always to be expected that a cure will follow. In number of instances the man's condition may not be improved, or may even becom worse than when he enlisted, and there is always the possibility of the departmen becoming liable for claims for pension. Kindly have this matter immediately brought to the attention of all conceme< with recruiting or enlistment of men for the overseas forces, and instruct them th;i the practice of enlisting men physically unfit, with the understanding they are to 1' subsequently operated upon by the military authorities, must cease. I have the honour to be. Sir, Your obedient servant, Major-General, A. Adjutant-General (F. McKB/WMB) RECEPTION, TKEATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 261 Circular Letter. H.Q. 593-3-7. Department of Militu and Defence. Ottawa, Ont., November 7, 1916. From The Adjutant-General, Canadian Militia. To The G.O.C., M.D. No. Medical Services in connection with Becruiting — Mobilization centres. Sir, — With further reference to the marginally noted subject, I have the honour, direction, to request that all medical boards examining recruits be notified that wherever a recruit is physically unfit for the branch of the service for which he is making application, if his physical status is such that he will measure up to the rwiuired standard of some other branch of the service (e.g. C.A.S.C., C.A.M.C., driver for artillery, forestry battalions, etc.) that he be informed to this effect, and an effort be made to secure him for some branch of the service for which he is physically fitted. I have the honour to be, sir. Your obedient servant. (F. McKB/WME) Circular Letter. H.Q. 593-3-7. Department of Militia and Defence. Ottawa, Ont., November 8, 1916. From The Adjutant-General, Canadian Militia. To Medical Services in connection ivith Recruiting — Mohilization Centres. Sir, — With further reference to Headquarters' communication 593-3-7, dated September 12, 1916, relative to the marginally noted subject, I have the honour, by direction, to request that you will kindly forward without delay a report as to : — (1) What progress is being made in M.D. No. (2) List of mobilization centres at present being operated. (3) Nominal roll of personnel employed at the various centres, including those of the Medical Examining Boards. I have the honour to be, sir, Your obedient servant, Major-General. A/ Adjutant-General. Circular Letter. H.Q. 60-4-8. Department of ^AFiutia and Defence, Ottawa, Ont., December 14, 1016. From The Director-General of INledical Services, Ottawa, Ont. Ottawa, Ont. To The A.D.M.S., M.D. No. Re Incipient Pulmonary Tuherculosis In order that cases of incipient pulmonary tuberculosis in troops may not be over- looked, it is requested that ^Nfedical Officers in charge of troops or hospitals will observe closely every case of bronchial trouble. 262 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS It is expected that iu any chest condition where there is expectoratiuu and the least suspicion, the sputum will be exahiined for tubercle bacilli. Where a diagnosis of pulmonary tuberculosis is made the patient should be transferred at once to a Sanitorium fur treatment, and the barracks or quarters thoro uglily disinfected. Medical Officers examining recruits should reject anyone who has at any time suffered form pulmonary tuberculosis, and they should be on their guard for attempts at re-enlistment of men who have been previously discharged as medically unfit on account of this disease. Colonel, A.D.G.M.S. H.Q. 5i-21-51-9. Department of Militia and Defence, Ottawa, Ont., December 29, 1916. From The Adjutant-Gieneral, Canadian Militia. To InMructions Begarding Medical Inspection of Troops, and Reports to he rendered regarding same. Sir, — 'With regard to the marginally noted subject, I have the honour, by direc- tion, to call particular attention to the following points : (1) Units and drafts from various districts have proceeded overseas without a report of Final Medical Inspection having been forwarded to the Secretary of the Militia Council, as called for by H.Q. 54-21-51-9 of August 26th, 1916. A copy of the medical certificates, signed by the O.C., the unit or draft, and by the examirting Medical Board must, in all cases, be forwarded immediately the final medical inspec- tion is completed. (2) After a unit or draft is warned for overseas, no leave is to be granted until all ranks have passed their final medical inspection, and any who are on leave when theiv unit or draft is warned, are to be recalled to undergo such inspection. (3) If at the final medical inspection it is found that there are absentees, the examining medical hoard will keep a record of such absentees for the information of the O.C, the unit or draft, who will make out, in quadruplicate, a nominal roll of same, and forward two copies with the final medical inspection report to the G.O.C. of the District. The other copies to be disposed of as per instructions re Medical Inspec- tion Report. In any case where, owing to unavoidable circumstances, absentees are shown, or where men are enlisted subsequent to the Final Medical Inspection, a nominal roll of same will be handed to the Embarkation Medical Officer, in order that these men may be medically examined before proceeding overseas. (4) The Medical Examinihg Board will furnish to District Headquarters a nominal roll in duplicate of those found " unfit " at the final medical inspection, and will give thereon the names of the Medical Examining Board or Medical Officer who first passed the recruit as " tit." One copy of this nominal roll to be forwarded to the Secretary of the Militia Council. (5) In future four copies of the combined certificates of Final Medical Inspec- tion and Xominal Roll of Absentees will be made out; these will be disposed of a? follows : — (a) Two copies to be forwarded to the O.C, the Military District or Camp Commandant concerned. One of these to be forwarded to the Secretary of the Militia Council; the other to be retained at the Headquarters of the District. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 263 (b) One copy to be handed to the Embarkation Medical Officer to the Head- quarters of the District where troops embark, where it will be retained for reference. (c) One copy to be retained by the O.C, the unit or draft to be reproduced for the information of the Overseas Authorities at disembarkation. Medical Officers i/c troops, although instructed to hold weekly inspections of their units have often permitted men who are medically unfit to be retained in the service for longer or shorter periods; thereby causing unnecessary expense to the public. These men, who should have been discharged previously, are only discovered at the final medical inspection. Medical officers of units and drafts are to be warned that they must on no account retain unfits in the service. In spite of the careful instructions which have been issued from time to time, the number of unfits arriving in England is still large. If this condition recurs in the future, the O.C, the unit and the Medical Officer or Officers concerned will be held strictly accountable, and if gross neglect is proved, will be liable to dismissal from the service. Kindly issue the necessary instructions to all concerned. I have the honour to be, sir. Your obedient servant, Major-General, A/ Adjutant-General. JGA/ES. H.Q. 600-10-41. Department of Militia and Defence, Ottawa, January 22, 1917. From The Adjutant-General, Canadian Militia. To Physical Standards for Construction and Forestry Battalions and Sections, Skilled Railway Employees. Sir, — With further reference to Headquarters' lettergrams, Agone 9-H-4 of the 9th instant and Agone lO-H-5 of the 10th instant, I have the honour, by direction, to instruct you that headquarters' letters, 1812 of 26th May, 1916, 1812 of 16th June, and 593-1-23 of 5th September, 1916, are hereby cancelled and that from this date as regards the units marginally noted: — 1. The following will be the relaxations from the ordinary physical standards, as laid down for infantry battalions of the Canadian Expeditionary Force (see Rules for the Inspection of Recruits, 1916, and Headquarters' letter, 1982-1-41, of 21st July, 1916). (a) Age:— Upper age limit, 48 years, but the apparent age rather than the age given is to be taken into accoimt, and the condition of the arteries of all men of 41 years of age and over is to determine acceptance or rejection. Lower age limit: The apparent rather than stated age is also to be carefully noted in those near the lower age limit. Particular care 264 SPECIAL COMMITl'EE—C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS must be taken to reject those who, while stating, or affording proof, that they are over the lower age limit (18 years), present, never- theless, a physical development below the normal for that age period. (6) Height. — The minimum height accepted is 4 foot 11 inches. (c) Chest Measurement and Expansion. — These must be proportioned to the height. {d) Standard of Vision: Men can be accepted who (1) have the lowest standard vision, as laid down in Headquarters' letter,. 593-1-23, of 24th August, 1916, or (2) whose vision can be raised to the standard by the use of glasses, or, (3) who have lost one eye, or the sight thereof, but whose sight has not been lost as the result of injury or progressive organic disease within the last three years, the sight in the other eye being not less than D-80, at twenty feet, with- out glasses, or (4) who have' suffered from squint since childhood, provided that neither eye has a visual acuity of less than D-80, at twenty feet, witliout glasses, (e) Hearing. — Deafness in one ear shall not prevent acceptance, provided that the hearing of the other ear is normal and that the deafness is not due to existing disease (Otitis Media, &c.), (/) Lost of Fingers. — Men may be accepted, who have lost one or two fingers of either hand, if the Examining Medical Board considers that the re- cruit is not thereby incapacitated from manual labour. ig) Lost of toes. — Men may be accepted who have lost one or two toes from either or both feet, provided the great toes are intact. {h) Flat Foot. — A moderate degree of flat foot will not constitute cause for rejection. Care is to be taken to determine whether the condition is genuine flat foot (i.e. due to giving way of the arch of the foot) or no, either by X-Kay esxamination or by the test of a five mile march. Many so-called cases of flat foot are due to filling in of the arch by development of the plantar muscles. 2. Whenever a man is passed for service, who has some physical defect, the nature of that defect, or minor disability and its apparent extent, must be noted in full detail upon the Attestation Paper. 3. No man is to be accepted who affords a history or evidence of (a) Epilepsy (b) Tuberculosis (c) Insanity, or (cZ) Acute Rheumatic Fever or Acute Endocarditis. I have the honour to be, sir, Your obedient servant, Mai or- General, A/ Adjutant-General. JGA/ES. H.Q. 54-21-51-9. Department of Militu and Defence, Ottawa. January 23, 1917. From The Adjutant-General Canadian Militia. To Instructions regarding Medical Inspection of Troops, and reports to he rendered regarding same. Sir, — With reference to Headquarters' letter, 54-21-51-9, of 29th December, 1916, upon the marginally noted subject, I have the honour, by direction, to call your RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 265 attention to the amendment to paragraph (4) of the above letter, which is to read as follows : — (4) The ITedical Examining Board will furnish to District Headquarters a Nominal Roll, in duplicate, of those found " unfit " at the Final Medical Inspection, which shall be made according to the form hereto appended, and will give the names of the Examining Board or Medical Officer who passed the recruit as "fit." One copy of this Nominal Roll, upon completion, will be forwarded without delay to the Secretary of the Militia Council. I have the honour to be, sir. Your obedient servant, Major- General, >^ A/Adjutant-General. 191, Return- of those found Physically Unfit at the Final Medical Inspection of the. held at upon, the Military District No Rendered in Duplicate in accordance with H.Q. 54-21-51-9 of 29-12-16. A separate return will be made for each unit. This does not replace M.F.W. 104, rendered in accordance with H.Q. 16-1-25 of 14-12-15. No. Rank. Name. Disability. Whert enlisted. Date. Medical Examiners or Board by whom passed as fit. Remarks. Signed . Date. President, Medical Board. From To JGA/ES. H.Q. 19S2-1-41. DePARTME:NT of ;^DLITIA AND DEFENCE, Ottawa, February 1, 1917. The Adjutant-General, Canadian Militia. Eyesight and Hearing of liecriiits — Record tipon Attestation Paper. ^^' In consequence of the large number of men, who of late have been pre- vented from proceeding to the front, or have been returned from England to Canada m consequence of either defective eyesight or defective hearing, and, also, as a means of aidmg the Pension Commissioners in adjudging the rate to be granted those who 266 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS claim damage to eyesight, or hearing, brought about, or aggravated, by active service, I have the honour, by direction, to instruct you that in future the extent of vision and hearing of every recruit, who is accepted, will be determined by the Kecruiting Medical Board at the mobilization centre, and, in every instance, will be entered upon the back of the man's attestation paper in the lower part of the space headed " Distinctive Marks," e.g. : — (a) Eyesight E: D = 24: L: D = 60. (b) Hearing E: Slight reduction: L Normal. 1 have the honour to be, sir, Your obedient servant, Major-General, A/Adjutant-Ge7ieral. Circular Letter. . (FMcKB/WMK) H.Q. 593-3-7. Departme'nt of Militia and Defence^ Ottawa^ February 10, 1917. From To The Adjutant-General, Canadian Militia. The O.C.'s M.D.'s 1, 11 and 12. and G.O.C.'s M.D.'s 2, 8, 4, 5, 6, 10 and 13. Inspector Generals Eastern and Western Canada. Medical Services in connection with Recruiting — Mobilization Centres. Sir,— With further reference to H.Q. 593-3-7, dated November 8, 1916, re the marginally noted subject, I have the honour, by direction, to request that information be furnished as to : — (1) The rank and names of personnel of the various medical boards at present employed in the examination of recruits throughout the district. (2) The qualifications of each examiner (i.e., wdiether physician, surgeon, general practitioner or whether specialist in any branch of medicine or surgery). As far as possible each medical board should comprise a physician, a surgeon and an eye, ear, nose and throat specialist. Having regard to the important functions of the standing medical boards, in that they are often responsible for the examination not only of recruits, but of casualties and of pensioners as well, the personnel of such boards should be selected as far as possible from medical officers or practitionei-s whose high professional quali- fications recommend them for this special and important branch of the medical ser- vice. I have the honour to be, sir. Your obedient servant, Major-General, A/ A djutant- General. RECEPTIOS, THE ATM EST AND RE-EDUCATIOX 267 Circular Letter. (FMcKB/WMR) H.Q. 600-10-41. Depaktment of Militia and Defence. Ottawa^ February 12, 1917. From The Adjutant-General, Canadian Militia. To Physical Standards for Construction and Forestry Battalions and Sections — Skilled Bailway Employees. Sir, — With further reference to Headquarters' circular letter 600-10-41 dated January 22, 1917, relative to the subject marginally noted, I have the honour, by direction, to invite your attention to the following correction: — Section (d) Standard of Vision. This should read: — Men can be accepted who (1) have the lowest standard of vision as laid dowii in Headquarters' letter, 593-1-23 of August 24, 1916; or (2) whose vision can be raised to Standard One by the use of glasses, — etc. and not as therein stated. Please notify all concerned. I have the honour to be, sir. Your obedient servant, Major- General J A/Adjutant-General. 268 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Cases Admitted to Hospitals in Various Districts of Canada from January ], 191G, to October 31, 1916. o ^ ci CO •-< ~f i-~ '-* Disease. P Q Q Q Q Q Q a O "K S ^ S s ^ § s ^ g S ^ Group A— Diphtheria 1 77 55 6 2 125 686 1 22 981 Enteric fever 8 22 20 4 24 12 44 7 i 20 162 Influenza 474 1,460 1,480 38 232 1,052 1,764 501 2 1,326 8,329 Measles 208 562 382 93 28 499 6.53 163 188 2,776 Scarlet fever 5 8 22 10 2 30 65 1 3 146 Small-pox 1 10 64 22 1 98 Other diseases 72 139 188 49 18 128 664 93 12 1,363 Group B— Dysentery.., Malta fever' . 6 13 5 3 1 21 11 ))0 1 I Other diseases . Group C— Malaria 2 10 5 2 3 5 1 1 1 30 Sandfly fever 1 1 39 72 1 5 14 24 8 27 180 Group D — Pyre.xia of uncertain origin 1 12 40 1 65 119 Group E— Major septic diseases 27 27 46 12 10 35 50 15 37 259 Minor ., 40 260 212 45 48 231 350 126 91 1,403 Group F— Cerebro spinal meningitis 3 7 1 11 7 1 2 37 Group G — Endocarditis, infective. 1 94 15 269 6 119 17 61 3 52 5 83 272 5 66 52 Pneumonia 8 81 1,115 Rheumatic fever . . 223 5H3 433 80 60 324 725 88 3 285 2,804 Sore throat.... 16 21 30 65 3 69 142 53 23 422 Tonsilitis 173 1,263 558 179 151 890 987 50 1 546 4,798 (jlroup H — Tubercule of lung ... 46 91 64 54 70 95 54 10 1 " 492 Other tubercular diseases.. . . 3 103 9 2 1 16 1 1 1 1 138 Group I - Gonorrhoea 194 858 638 404 18(1 277 792 273 1 196 4,313 Syphilis . 33 78 111 118 18 116 33 43 16 566 Soft chancre 13 39 47 29 23 33 7 9 6 206 Alcoholism 14 80 73 24 14 49 49 22 18 343 Other intoxications . . 2 18 2 6 1 3 32 Scabies 11 95 96 4 13 56 77 28 2 4 ;^S6 Other parasitic diseases 3 24 21 1 17 106 23 3 18 216 Debility 13 90 18 42 6 4 1 1 175 Other general diseases 50 48 25 33 6 21 5 12 GO 260 Nervous system — Nervous 27 315 143 62 5C 158 134 99 11,059 Mental 26 7 13 6 2 16 77 Eye 53 236 128 36 33 101 162 69 1 55 874 Other organs of special sense 98 461 219 60 80 169 368 47 3 116 1,621 Valvular disease of heart • 4 36 9 1 45 4 6 1 106 Disordered action of heart 39 16 20 7 72 35 1 1 191 Other circulatory diseases 125 194 257 53 46 147 138 124 107 1,298 Respiratory 255 746 541 137 55 5.S8 666 112 253 3,333 Hernia . 119 162 134 61 47 68 284 78 13« 1,089 66 Inflammation of liver 3 2'< 8 5 10 5 2 6 Other digestive diseases (except .sore throat and tonsilitis) 237 92C 497 175 97 555 645 215 6 29U 3,646 Lymphatic (except those included in minor septic diseases) 25 25 37 12 12 28 17 36 2 7 201 Urinary 17 145 83 42 18 94 58 22 2 4.1 525 Generative (except soft chancre). . . 75 271 105 52 44 159 22«) 60 52 1,036 Myalgia 24 lis 93 14 48 293 108 17 723 Other diseases— organs of locomo- tion 173 497 200 118 49 335 148 108 1 207 1,776 Connective tissue 22 185 66 5 45 17 25 24 1 9 399 Skin (except those included in minor septic diseases) 37 426 104 38 33 76 145 31 40 930 RECErnOX, TliEATMEXT AND RE-EDUCATIOX 269 Cases Admitted to Hospitals in Various Districts of Canada from January 1, 191G, to October 31, V.)1G.— Continued. Diseases. ci CO Q ■■'19 35 14 1 o 4 159 2 2 20 11 11 121 508 4 18 51 24 o Q 14 602 "& 5 13 5 267 2 33 9 '5 2 4 377 6 50 5 Injuries- 7 8 9o 10 195 859 2 n 17 31 22 26 580 2 3 20 29 89 Other general Local 401 3,482 46 In action . Poisons Not yet diagnosed No appreciable disease , 5 42 162 142 71 _ 49 4,900 Total 3,185 12,254 8,115 2,419 1.913 8,469 11,339 2,969 55 612 Total number of cases admitted to hospitals in Canada from January 1, 1916, to October 31, 1916, including Valcartier. . Average number of troops in Canada per month, from January 1, 1916, to October 31, 1916 Average number of cases admitted to hospitals in Canada, per month, from January 1, 1916, to October 31, 1916 Percentage of sickness 59,050 116,441 5,905 5' GB/DE. Table showing the number of soldiers from Overseas receiving treatment in Canada in Hospitals under the supervision of the A.D.M.S., on February 22, 1917. District. Medical. Surgical. Venerpal. Total. M. 1). No. 1 M. D. No. 2 M. D. No. 3 M. D. No. 4 6 6 4 3 7 8 4 2 3 1 18 2 11 26 1 2 5 1 1 M. D. No. 5 M. D. No. 6 M. I). No. 10 M. D. No. 11 ;. M. D. No. 12. . . . M. D. No. 13 Total : 34 52 9 95 270 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS GB/JAD. Table showing number of Venereal cases receiving treatment in Canada, during the months of December, November, and October, and the percentage of Venereal Diseases to other cases being treated in Hospital. Months. Gonorrhoea. Syphili.s. Soft Chancre. Total Venereal, Total sick Treated in Hospital. Percentage of Venereal to the others. December November ... October 799 1.041 809 152 192 159 56 44 59 1,007 1,277 1,027 5,618 5,727 6,529 17-9 22 2 15 •« Total. . . 2,647 503 159 3,309 17,474 Venereal Diseases being treated in Hospitals in Canada during I^ovember, 1916. Districts. Gonorrhoea . Syphilis. Soft Chancre. M. D. 1 M. D. 2... 59 143 52 173 56 159 86 41 12 28 809 6 37 27 28 4 23 5 14 2 13 8 8 M. D. 3 M. D. 4 5 26 M. D. 5 M. D. 6 M. D.IO M. D. 11 1 2 2 M. D. 12 M. D. 13 Total 159 f9 Total for November, 1,027. Total for December, 1,007. Venereal Diseases being treated in Hospitals in Canada, during December, 1916. Districts. M. D. 1 Gonorrhoea . 101 116 28 174 34 170 109 33 9 25 Syphilis. 5 27 25 33 9 32 8 5 1 7 Soft Chancre. 13 M. D. 2 M. D. 3 8 6 M. D. 4 21 M. D. 5 M. D. 6 1 7 M. D. 10 M. D. 11 M. D 12. . . ... M. D. 13 Total 799 152 56 Total for December, 1,007 RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 271 Beds. Military Hospital, Hamilton 200 Military Hospital, Stanley Barracks 14 Base Hospital, Toronto 800 A.M.C. Training Depot, No. 2 37 General and Marine Hospital, Collingwood 25 General and Rtarine Hospital, Owen Sound 15 Royal Victoria Hospital, Barrie 40 Queen Victoria Memorial, North Bay 18 Welland County General Hospital, Welland 13 General Sault Hospital ; 20 General Hospital, Brantford 20 General Hospital, Oshawa 7 General Hospital, Niagara Falls 6 City Hospital, Hamilton 75 St. Josephs Hospital, Parry Sound 10 General Hospital, Toronto 150 Western Hospital, Toronto 25 Total 1,475 From Colonel Potter's Papers submitted to Committee, March 1, 1917. Class No. 2 Ho.spitals, used for month of December, 1916. M.D. No. 1 . . " No. 2.. " No. 3 . . " No. 4 . . " No. 5 . . " No. 6 . . " No. 10. . " No. 11. . " No. 12. . " No. 13.. Total . Beds Accommodation. Occupied 198 8 115 S 749 81 300 124 50 193 52 820 315 251 65 467 75 229 28 3,372 456 272 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Military Hospitals in Canada, showing Accommodation and Beds Occupied at the end of December, 191G. MILITARY DISTRICT No. 1. ^ Military Hospitals. Accommodation. Beds Occupied. London 225 16.5 MILITARY DISTRICT No. 2. Stanley Barracks, Toro^to Military, Hamilton Base Military, Toronto ; . . . . Exhibition Camp Hospital, Toronto. (Complete return to be received) 14 190 660 Isolation, St. Johns, Que. Military, « Lsolation, Montreal St. George's, 4 74 273 MILITARY DISTRICT No. 3. Ongwanada Military, Kingston.. Venereal Military, .. 65 22 26 MILITARY DISTRICT No. 4. 20 1 12 6 19 2 52 46 MILITARY DISTRICT No. Military, Quebec City . II Beau port.... 78 Winter. 91 Summer. 50 MILITARY DISTRICT No. 6. Military, Halifax II Rockland II Windsor II Fredericton Infectious, St. John Military, n Infectious, Charlottetown II Summerside Truro 338 246 93 49 34 24 25 42 130 63 40 25 MILITARY DISTRICT No. 11. Military, New Westminster . . . . II Isolation Willow Camp. II Esquimalt II Hastings Park MILITARY DISTRICT No. 12. Infectious, Regina 26 23 MILITARY DISTRICT No. 13. Military, Calgary 102 44 Total 2,388 1,246 RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 273 Hospitals used for month of December, showing Accommodation and Beds Occupied at end of month. MILITARY DISTRICT No. 1. Military Hu.spitals. Isolation, Chapman Civil, Windsor St. Josejjh's, (Juelph . . Civil, St. Thtmuis Victoria, London General, Gait » Giielph Kitchener and ^^'ate^loo Total , , . Beds Occupied. 9 30 22 10 50 1 12 G 65 1 Not stated. 'IILITARY DISTRICT No. 2. Civil, Niagara Falls. . . M Brantford II Barrie " Oshawa liady Minto, Chapkau Total ... 30 No return. 20 6 60 No return. 5 Not stated. 2 MILITARY DISTRICT No. 3. Civil, Renfrew St. Luke's Ottawa Protestant General, Ottawa. Civil, Port Hope St. .loweph's, Peterboro , Civil, Helleville II Bowman vilh> NichoIIs, Peterboro < J«neral. Kin|neral Hospital General General General Marine General . London. . Woodstock. -Sarnia. Strathroy. .Winghani. .Goderich. Clinton. MILITARY DISTRICT No. 4. Alexandria Hospital Arthabaska Hospital Victoriaville. Civil Infectious Sherbrooke. Protestant General . . Sherbrooke. MILITARY DISTRICT No. 0. Chipman Memorial St. Stei)hens. Civil Snringhill. General New Waterftird. Civil Hospital Yarmouth. General Moncton. Highland View Amherst. St. Martha Hospital Antigonish. MILITARY DISTRICT Xo. 10. Cottage Hospital Minnedosa. General Hospital Dauphin. General .... . . . . Moos»'jaw. Cottage Hospital Maple Creek. MILITARY DISTRICT No. 11. Royal Island Hospital . . Kamloop.*. Queen Victoria Revelstoke. Genenil Hospital Work Point. General Ha^pital St. Rui>ert. 28277— 18J 276 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Tabulated Statement^ showing the N'umher of Cases Receiving Treatment in MiUtary and Civil Hospitals in Canada, during the Month of December, 1916, Group A. — Diphtherial . . . Enteric Fever. Measles Scarlet Fever. . Small Pox.... Other Diseases. CJroup B. — Dysentery Malta Fever . . . Inoculation . . . Group C. — Malaria Sandfly Fes'er Other Diseases Group D.— Pyrexia of uncertain origin Group III. — Major Septic Diseases Minor « Group F.— Rabies . .... Cerebrospinal meningitis. . Group G. — Endocarditisi, infective Pneumonia Rhttumatic Fever Sore throat Tonsilitis Group H. — Tubercle of lung Other tubercular Diseases. Group I. — Gonorrhoea Syphilis -. Soft Chancre Alcoholism Other intoxications Scabies Other Parasitic Diseases Debility Other General Diseases Nervous System — Nervous . . 1 1 Mental Eye. Other organs of Special sense Valvular Disease of Heart Disordered Action of Heart Other Circulatory Diseases. . . Respiratory Hernia Inflammation of liver Other Digestive Disease.'^ (excejit Sore J.hroat and Tonsilitis) Lymphatic (except those included in Minor Septic Diseases) Urinary Generative (except Soft Chancre) Myalgia Other Diseases, Organs of Locomotion. , Connective Tissue Skin (excejit those included in Minor Septic Diseases) 7 1 174 33 21 10 1 6 C 17 6 12 6 24 28 41 11 102 21 170 32 6 RECEPTION, TKEATMEJ^T AND RE-EUUVATION 277 Tabulated Statement, showing the Number of Cases Receiving Treatment in Military and Civil Hospitals in Canada, during the Month of Deoember, 1916. — Con. Diseas«». CO Q o d Q :?3 ri Q 1 11 1 njuries— Sunstroke (Jthnr General CI 35 2 7 20 103 2 5 1 35 2 14 22 55 46 15 17 .2 3 368 151 liotal In action PoisoM Not yet diaGrnosed 1 1 1 8 1 4 31 1 1<> No appreciable Disease Total 1 (1 4 1 3 y 3 543 1,440 351 57X 161 1,003 828 251 282 178 5,618 1,859 Remaining from Noven Total admitted ber. 1,879 3,739 5,618 3,759 .. treated .. discharged MEDICAL 150ARDS ON UNITS. (State in month of February, 1917.) M. D. No. 1. — All units boarded at least once. M. D. No. 2. — All units boarded except 24Sth, 255th, 256th, who are mostly in billets. In the latter two battalions most have passed medical board at mobilization centre. M. D. No. 3. — All units medically boarded one to three times. M. D. No. 4. — All units medically boarded at least once. M. D. No. 5. — All units medically boarded. 1 M. D. No. 6.— All units medically boarded except in Prince Edward Island, where [they are being boarded at present. M. D. No. 10. — All units medically boarded once or twice since mobilization. M. D. No. 11. — All units medically boarded. M. D. No. 12.— All units, except 243rd and 249th, medically boarded. M. D. No. 13.— All units medically boarded. ^ RULES FOR THE INSPECTION OF RECRUITS 1916 279 RULES FOR THE INSPECTION OF RECRUITS, 1916. Pnncipal points in medical examination of recruits. — In the inspection of recruits the principal points to be attended to are: — That the recruit is sufficiently intelligent. That his vision, with either eye, is up to the required standard. That his hearing is good. That his speech is without impediment. That he has no glandular swellings. That his chest is capacious and well formed, and that his heart and lungs are sound. That he is not ruptured in any degree or form. That the limbs are well formed and fully developed. That there is free and perfect motion of all the joints. That the feet and toes are well formed. That he has no congenital malformation or defects. That he does not bear traces of previous acute or chronic disease pointing to an impaired constitution. That he is between the ages of 18 and 45 years. General grounds for rejection. — Men presenting any of the following conditions will be rejected: — Indication of tubercular disease; constitutional syphilis; bronchial or laiyngeal disease; palpitation or other diseases of the heart; generally i"mpaired constitution; under standard of vision ; defects of voice, or hearing ; pronounced stammering ; con- traction or deformity of chest or joints; abnormal curvature of spine; defective intelligence; hernia; haemorrhoids; varicose veins or varicocele, if severe; inveterate cutaneous disease; chronic ulcers; fistula; traces of corporal punishment; or any disease or physical defect calculated to unfit them for the duties of a soldier. Mental capacity. — Great care is to be taken in ascertaining the mental capacity of a recruit. Correlation of height, weight, chest measurements, and age. — The height, weight, and chest measurement of a recruit should accord with each other, and with his age, agreeably to the table of standards laid down in the recruiting regulations. So far as concerns weight, this table is to be regarded as a guide only, and the medical officer is to exercise his own judgment as to the general fitness of the man under examina- tion. Determination of age hy physical development. — Should a recruit, on presenting himself for enlistmejit, bring no satisfactory proof of his age, the medical officer who examines him will, by comparing the height with the weight and general development, and also from the recruit's appearance, decide his age. which will be entered on the second page of the attestation " apparent age." Position of recruit. — Wlien not required to approach the recruit for special objects the medical officer should always take his place at a distance of about six feet from him. The recruit should be placed so that the light may fall upon him. Directions for general examination, and objects. — The recruit having, if possible, had a bath, or been washed, and being wholly undressed, the following should be the order in which the examination is carried out: — He is measured under the standard. 281 282 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS He is weighed. His chest measurement is taken. His vision is tested. If he satisfies requirements in these respects, and appears otherwise eligible, the general examination will be thus proceeded with: — He is directed to wallv up and down the room smartly two or three times, to hop across the room on the right foot, and back again on the left. (The hops should be short and upon the toes.) He is halted, standing upright, with his arms extended above his head, while the medical officer walks slowly round him carefully inspecting the whole surface of his body. An estimate is formed of his general physique, of his age, and whether he presents the appearance of having served before. The objects to be observed and noted in this part of the examination are the fol- lowing: The general physical development; the formation and development of the limbs; the power of motion in joints, especially in the feet and hips; extreme flatness of the feet; formation of the toes; skin disease; varicose veins; cicatrices or ulcers; and any special marks from congenital or accidental causes, and tattoo marks. If no disabling effects are found, the second part of the examination will be proceeded with. Examination of the iriinl: — The trunk will be examined from below upwards. The recruit stands with his arms extended above his head, the backs of the hands being in contact. The following will be the order of inspection : — The medical officer notes indications of venereal disease. He examines the scrotum to ascertain if the testicles have descended and are nor- mal, or if there be varicocele or other disease. He inserts the point of his finger in the external abdominal ring of each side, and desires the recruit to cough two or three times, to ascertain if he be ruptured or liable to that condition. He examines the abdominal walls and parietes of the chest. Examination of the chest. — He desires the recruit to "take in a full breath" several times, while he watches the action and notes the capacity of the chest. Careful stethoscopic examination of lungs is made. He examines the action of the heart, and notes its sounds. The upfer extremities. — The examination of the upper extremities will be made from below upwards. Time is saved by the medical officer himself acting as well as telling the recruit the movements he desires to be made. The following are the directions: — Stretch out your arms with the palms of your hands upwards. Bend the fingers backwards and forwards. Bend your thumbs across the palms of your hands. Bend your fingers over your thumbs. Bend your wrists backwards and forwards. Bend the elbows. Turn the backs of the hands upwards. Swing your arms round at the shoulders. Mavhs of vaccination. — The medical officer will examine the recruit for marks of vaccination. This comprehends the inspection for loss or defects of the fingers, thumbs, wrists, elbow and shoulder joints; i>ower of rotating the forearm, and vaccination. If not vaccinated the circumstance should be stated on the medical history sheet. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 283 The lower extremities and hack. — The inspection of the lower extremities and back will be made from below upwards. The recruit first faces the medical officer, afterwards turns his back to him. The following are the directions given facing: — Stand on one foot, put the other forward. Bend the ankle-joint and toes of each foot alternately, backwards and forwards. Kneel down on one knee. Up again. Down on the other knee. Up again. Down on both knees, and up from that position with a simultaneous spring of both legs. Turn round. Separate the legs. Touch the ground with the hands. While the recruit performs these movements the medical officer will observe the action of the knee-joints, the conditions of the perinaeum, and of the spinal column. I This includes the inspection for defects of the toes, ankle and knee-joints; for i ha-inorrhoids, prolapsus ani, fistula in perinaeo, and spinal deformity. llie head and necl: — The examination of the head and neck will be made from above downwards. The medical officer will note the intelligence, character of voice, and power of hearing of the recruit by his replies to the questions put to him. The following are the directions: Have you had any blows or cuts on the head? Are you subject to fits of any kind? He examines the scalp. He examines the ears. He examines the eyes and ej'clids. He examines the nostrils. He examines the mouth, teeth, palate and fauces, and then tells the recruit to say loudly, "Who comes there?" He examines the neck. This comprehends the inspection for injuries of the head; deafness, disease of the cars; defect of voice; polypus of nose; tuberciilar ulceration; glandular enlargements; and defects of the eyes and the teeth. Teeth. — An examining officer should not reject a recruit on account of the con- dition of his teeth, provided that the physical condition of the recruit is good in other respects. The condition of the mouth will receive attention from the C.A.D.C. subsequent to enlistment The following are the instructions for the measurement of recruits : — Height. — The recruit will be placed against the standard with the feet together, and the weight thrown on the heels, and not on the toes or outside the feet. He will stand erect, without rigidity, and with the heels, calves, buttocks and shoulders touch- ing the standard; the chin will be depressed to bring the vertex of the head level under the horizontal bar, and the height will be noted in parts of an inch to eighths. Ch^st. — The recruit will be made to stand erect with his feet together, and to raise his arms over his head. The tape will be carefully adjusted round the chest with its posterior upper edge touching the inferior angles of the scapula?, and its anterior lower edge the upper part of the nipples. . The arms will then be lowered to hang loosely by the side, and care will be taken that the shoulders are not thrown upwards or backwards so as to displace the tape. The recruit will then be directed to take a deep inspiration several times, and the maximum, expansion of the chest will be care- fully noted. It is often attempted to conceal the true ■ minimum measurement, but 284 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETUBNED SOLDIERS it can be obtained by a little manipulation and by drawing off attention from the examination by a few questions. The maximum expansion rarely exceeds the average minimum by more than 2 to 2\ inches. The miniminn and maximum will then be recorded thus — 33 34 — — etc. 35 36i In recording the measurements fractions o£ less than half an inch should not be noted. The maximum is the standard measurement, and a recruit must also reach the range of chest expansion laid down in the table of physical equivalents. Vision. — ^In examining a recruit's vision he will be placed with his back to the light, and his visual acuteness will be tested by means of test types placed in ordinary daylight, at a distance of six metres (20 English feet) from the recruit. (1) Squint, or any morbid condition of the eyes or lids of either eye, liable to the risk of aggravation or recurrence, will cause the rejection of the candidate. (2) If a recruit can read D-80 at 20 feet or better with each eye, without glasses, he will be considered "Fit." (3) If he can read D-80 at 20 feet, with the right eye, without glasses, and not less than D-200, at the same distance with the left eye, without glasses, he ]will be considered "Fit." (4) If he can read D-200 at 20 feet, with the right eye, without glasses, and not less than D-80 with the left eye at the same distance, without glasses, he will be con- sidered "Fit" for the Canadian Army Service Corps, Canadian Army Medical Corps, the Canadian Ordnance Coi*ps, for Forestry, Pioneers, Construction and Labour Battalions, and for Drivers of the Canadian Artillery or Canadian Engineers. The visual acuity of each eye in the case of approved recruits will be entered on the medical history sheet. Standards for chest measurement. — At least 33 inches aromid the chest, if between 18 and 30 years of age, and 34 inches around the chest if between 30 and 45 years of age. Height. — ^At least 5 feet in height for infantry, and 5 feet 4 inches for the artillery, and 5 feet 2 inches for other corps. Forestry Battalions. — 1. The absence of a finger on either or both hands, provided it be not the thumb or forefinger which is missing, or the absence of one or two toes on either or both feet, provided it be not the great toe, will not be a cause for rejection. 2. Age limit to be 48 years, provided men over 45 years of age are specially qualified as mill-v/right, saw-filer, etc. Note. — Any defect or minor disability must be noted on attestation x>aper. H.Q. 593-3-7. ORDERS AND REGULATIONS AS TO ENLISTMENT IN THE CANADIAN OVERSEAS EXPEDITIONARY FORCE INCLUDING " RULES FOR THE MEDICAL EXAMINATION OF RECRUITS," 1917 AND ' NOTES ON THE EXAMINATION OF RECRUITS FOR SPECIAL SERVICE " 285 ORDERS AND REGULATIONS AS TO ENLISTMENT IN THE CANADIAN OVERSEAS EXPEDITIONARY FORCE. QUALIFICATIONS FOR ENLISTMENT. 1. (a) British subject, by birth or naturalization, (h) Friendly alien. 2. Between the ages of 18 and 45, with the exception of Forestry and Construc- tion Battalions and actions of Skilled Railway Employees, where the age limit is 48 yeare. N.B. — While a recruit may be enlisted at the age of 18 years, he must not be sent overseas until he has passed his nineteenth birthday. 3. Minimum height, 5 feet for Infantry; 5 feet 4 inches for the Artillery and 5 feet 2 inches for all other corps. 4. Declared "physically fit" by a duly appointed Medical Board, after passing preliminary examination .by the local Medical Officer. (H.Q. 593-3-7, dated 12/9/16.) (a) Eyesight up to standard. Sec Appendix I. (6) Good hearing. See Appendix II. (A man will not be rejected on account of defective teeth alone, these will be given attention by the C.A.D.C, after enlistment. Wearing of dentures is permiss- ible.) (c) Have a sound heart and lungs. (d) Be free from skin diseases, syphilis, tuberculosis, hernia, severe varicocele, piles, marked varicose veins, flat feet and all other diseases or physical deformities. (e) Measure at least 33 inches around the chest if between 18 and 30 years of age, and 34 inches around the chest if between 30 and 45 years of age. 5. The decision as to physical fitness rests entirely with the Medical Officers con- cerned in the examination of Recruits. Officers Commanding Units or Drafts or Recruiting Officers must on no account attempt to influence the Examining Medical Officer in making his decision as to the fitness of a Recruit. 6. ;Mcn who have been discharged from the Service as '' unfit for further service " tor "misconduct" or "with a bad charactease. How fully disposed of. Date of Discharge, etc Index No. From. From. Date. Summary of Causes of invaliding, or remarks as to remand to Regiment, Station or Depot. Date of final Medical Beard or decision. Administrative Medical Officer. c c CO S © ^ to s O chanic Moulder Machine instructor.. Machinist Metal polisher Metal worker '. Mill worker Mining engineer. . . . Miner Miner's helper Messenger Min'ster Mineralogist Musician Marble worker. . . . Milk tester Mill-worker Machine oiler Miller (oatmeal).. . Maltster Miller Mariner Manufacturers' agent. Metallic worker. . . . Movie (manager).. . Machinist assistant.. :Mica cleaner. . . . . Metal buffer Miner (railroad) . . . . Motorman Map drawer I^Ianager (offlce) . . . Machine repairer . . Machine moulder. . . . 4 1 6 1 2 1 2 13 2 640 1 2 Newspaper reporter Nickle plater Nurse (male) . . . . Night watchman. . Operator (movies) . . Optician Operator (monotjTpe) Optician grinder. . . . Operator (elect.).. . Operator (telegraph) . Piano finisher Piano action maker Piano action stringer. . . Piano rubber Piano tuner Poulterer Pressman Press feeder. ... Paver Prison guard Publisher Printer Papermaker Porter Physical director Photographer Physician Pumpman Presser Pipe fitter Painter (artist) Packer Painter Plumber Plasterer Policeman Peddler Post office sorter Painter and paper hanger. Painter (master) Plough grinder Plough fitter Ploughmaker Pouncher Portrait painter Plater Postman Polisher Prosipector Steeple jack . . . . 2 Safemaker's assistant.. .. Stenographer . ... 1 .. 3 ... 31 .... 10 Sand l)laster . . . 20 31 Sawver . . . . Sailor 18 Saw setter . . Stone worker. ... ... [Mr. E. R. Cameron] 318 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS List of Discharged Ontario Soldiers under Occupations. — Concluded. Soldier ul 11 2 .56 Student (art) . . Trackman 1 Steel worker. . Shoe factory ha Surveyor Time-keeper Turkish bath rubber 6 Saddler. . Till roofer Telephonemaker Tentmaker Stationer. . Sales' manager. Tile setter . . . . Switcliman . . Upholsterer .... .... Silversmith . . Signalman. . . . Shell filler. . . . Valet 10 Sheriff's office . . Slater Smelter nsi Steel worker. . Weaver 3 Stockkeeper . . . Wheelwright Waiter 2 Street cleanei". . 8 School teacher. Watchman 2 Stationery — law Wire-weaver ail Wall driller. . Tobacconist. . . Tailor Wireless telegraphist.. .. Wool puller Total - Tanner. . 9 622 15% 5% 10% 45% Unskilled la isk nd les Almost ui illed Farmer a farmhand.. . Clerks, sa men, students. professional Mechanics By Mr. Middlehro: Q. In the statement showing the occupations of 216,000 soldiers, the farming class is exactly 10 per cent? — A. Quite so, it is given as 21,817. Mr. MiDDLEBRO : That gives an idea of the proportion of farmers. By Brigadier- General Mason: Q. How many does that return cover up to September 15, 1916? — A. That return covered the Canadian Expeditionary Force of 216,000 men who had sailed from Halifax. By the Chairman: Q. Do you believe that the 2,622 soldiers dealt with by the Ontario Soldiers Aid Commission represent a fair average of the 216,000, or would you believe that the first men to come back were super-abundant in certain classes ? Were the first 5,000 men that came home a fair sample of the whole 216,000? — A. I think so, as far as Ontario is concerned, but it does not work out accurately for all of Canada. Take manual workers, that class is less for all Canada than the proportion of those who came back to Ontario, because so many men in proportion went from the cities and towns of Ontario, which makes a difference between the manual workers, who represent two- thirds when you take the whole of Canada and 85 per cent when you deal with the province of Ontario. Q. Your contention would be that in the earlier drafts, which you are now getting back, the percentage of city men is greater than it will be in the later drafts? — A. I do not think that result would follow. [Mr. E. R. Cameron.] RECEPTIOX, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 319 Q. The perfentage of farmers would be less in the later drafts? — A. Take Ontario, which is the only province we have any return for as to returned soldiers, and there I- think the 85 per cent shows that the men enlisted from the cities and towns in greater proportion here than in the West. The proportion of manual workers from the West would be very much less, and there would be a greater number of farmers and ranchers. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. That would be the case because the first men to enlist in Ontario would be from the towns and cities? — A. That is possible, and it may be that the percentage will change and not be so largo from this class when wo got the final results. By the Chairman : Q. The 2,622 cases, however, include the three classes of men, those discharged in England, in France, and from the camps? — A. The Ontario return includes them all. Q. Including tho.se discharged fnun tlir> ••;inips?^A. Yes, I should say these three classes. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. vSome of the 2,022 men may not have gone overseas at all? — A. Part of them have not. Q. Can you tell us how many of the 2,622 did not go overseas at all? — A. No, I cannot say as to that, but I think the proportion I have figured out from our Ottawa experience ought to apply to the 2,622. Q. That would be 25 per cent? — A. Yes. Now, I do not know, gentlemen, that I have very much more material to give you. By the Chairman: Q. Can you tell us in respect of these men what proportion were, so to speak, fixtures, that is had been in Canada any considerable length of time? For example 3'ou have a returned soldier who perhaps prior to enlistment was only in this country a year or two. He would probably be more difficult to place than a returned soldier born and brought up in Canada and who is accustomed to our ways and conditions. Have you any figures to show what proportion of the men who have passed through your hands had been in Canada any considerable length of time prior to enlistment? — A. We perhaps could furnish you with that; but, speaking from memory, I would say it was a very small percentage who had not lived in Canada practically all their life. There were verj' few who had been here only a short time if you count five or six years as residence in Canada. Q. Those would be acclimatized ? — A. Yes, and there is a very negligible quantity who were not of that class. Q. In respect of the 450 discharged men who have passed through your hand-, what percentage of them had come to Canada within three years, could yci give us those figures? — ^A. I will do so, sir, if we have the material upon which to baic thein. Q. Have you anything further to put before the Committee? — A. T do not know that there is anything more that T can oflfer. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Mr. Cameron, from what source do you derive your funds to carr^- on this work?^ — A. From the voluntary contributions of the citizens. Perhaps T shoiild have explained that in the first year of our organization we adopted a scheme which had been found fairly successful in Winnipeg and some of the western cities, of having buttons prepared, like the one you see on my coat, and selling one lino at a dollar, and a more expensive button at $5, and in this way simply made an effort to reach the citizens and have them purchase these buttons. I should have said something more [Mr. E. R Cameron.] 320 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.^h'ETURMW SOLDIERS in dealing with our organization, one of the methods adopted by us to bring our work before the gi'eat mass of the citizens was to make provision for a council to which representatives would be sent by every organization in the city — i'atriotic, Benevolent or i^'raternal, every organization we conld get hold of. We have got, I think, about 113 of these organizations who nominated representatives on our Council, and we found that extremely beneticial in raising funds. We had the assistance of these organizations, both in the sale of these buttons and in our campaign conducted about a month ago, where we distributed cards asking for confributions and then called at the houses for them. But the citizens have provided and continue to provide, for the operations of the Soldiers' Aid Commission all over tlie province. As 1 under- stand it, the citizens of Ontario are expected to provide the funds necessary for the operations of the Commission. Q. Then if private citizens ceased subscribing to your funds your organization would blow up? — A. It would unless the Ontario Government came to our assistance. Q. Under the Act of 1916 the Ontario Government is empowered to do that? — A. Yes. Q. Do they not do that? As a matter of fact, do they not permit you to exhaust all your resources raised in this semi-charitable way, before they give you anything? — ■ A. They have never given us anything, and we have never asked for anything so far, because our funds have been sufficient for our purposes. I may say that I recently, at the suggestion of our Executive, communicated with the Chairman of the Com- mission suggesting that it would facilitate the collecting of funds from the connimnity if the Government, or the General Organization would supply the funds for our office expenses, because we were frequently met during our campaign by such statements as : " You are spending nearly all your money on your staif," and we thought it would perhaps assist us in any future campaign if we were able to say to tlie community, " Anything you contribute will actually go to the benefit of the soldier, will reach him and his family, and will not be expended for office expenses." Q. As a matter of fact, do not the Ontario Government practically say : " Until you have about exhausted the last dollar you can raise in this way, we will not come to your assistance " ? — A. I do not think it has been put up to us in that way at all. In fact, I understand from Mr. Best, who is the Ottawa representative on the Board in Toronto, that he has been verbally told that where the citizens do not supply the funds necessary for our work, the Government will supply them. That is the form in which the Government's attitude is stated to us and we know nothing beyond that. Q. That is the same thing in another way. — A. Perhaps so. Q. It is a distinction without a difference, I thinlv. From your practical experi- ence in this matter, would you not say there ought to be some stipulated fund pro- vided by the State for this work, upon which you might draw? — A. I would consider that our position is practically the same as that of the Patriotic Fund. If the time is to come when the Patriotic Fund is to be dropped and the State undertake all the pension work, I do not know why the same should not be done with regard to us, be- cause it seems to me that our work will have to go on after the war is over. Q. Quite so. — A, And I do not think it can be expected that the community is to go on supplying us with funds for ever. Still, we find, and I say this quite frankly, the public to be most generous in their treatment of us, and most sympathetic in their appreciation of our work. Practically no objections have been raised by the public towards contributing to this fund. Q. Would you think, human nature being much the same, that when the war is over and the danger past, the contributions may cease? — A. I should think that would be very likely. Q. Then, under these circumstances, do you not think there ought to be some provision made whereby the State should take up the work? — A. I think so. Q. Speaking as a man with practical knowledge of this work, you would not feel as much inclined to ask for contributions when the war is over and the danger past as you formerly did? — A. Certainly not. [Mr. E. R. Cameron.] RECEPTIOS, TREATMEST AS I) RE-EDUCATIOX 321 Q. You do not think the response would be as great if you did? — A. No, I am sure not. In such event it would be probably up to the Government to attend to the whole of this work. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. As a matter of fact, you know the Provincial Government have agreed to do that? — A. We were informed by Mr. Best that they are willing to do that. By Mr. Pardee: Q. In Clause 1 of the Agreement arrived at whea the Provincial organization was formed, it is set forth (reads) : " That all expenditures necessary in connection with the organization and administration of Provincial and other purely local Committees be borne by the Provincial and local authorities, with such voluntary contributions as may be received." Just to repeat my question. As a matter of fact they have given you nothing as yet, but voluntary contributions have been wholly relied upon ? — A. Yes, I think that sub- stantially they are. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Do you not think that so long as the public is contributing voluntarily it is all right? Is it not clear that when the public ceases to do so the Government will make good any deficiency? — A. I think the Government might make some* contribution, Mr. Middlehro, and I think they hav^'made an offer to the municipalities along this line; " You give so much and we will give the same amount." That is, if the municipal Council will vote us a certain appropriation towards this work, the Ontario Govern- ment will grant the same amount. I understand there has been some such proposition as that made. Q. And you asked the Ontario Government to pay your office expenses ?-t-A. The Provincial Government has not yet had a chance to reply. This resolution was only passed by our association lafft week. Let me say this, however: We have no com- plaints to make. We have no complaint to make against the Provincial Government or the Provincial organization, they have never refused us anything yet. Q. You say they have never refused you anything yet? — A. Not yet. ]\rr. MiDDLEBUo: And I do not thinlv,they ever will. Mr. Pardee: I was not attempting to insinuate such a thing. I was asking the opinion of the witness if he thought this method of carrying on the work was a prac- tical one. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Up to the present time you have thought the existing system all right? — A. I have modified that statement to this extent, that I think it would be proper for the Ontario Government to contribute something to our organization work here. Q. And in pursuance of that view you have asked them for a contribution? — A. We have suggested* that they pay for the office staff. Q. And if they do that you will be satisfied? — A. I think so, because that is the largest portion of our expenditure. By the Chairman: Q. Where does the money come from which you give to assist the special cases which you have just cited? — A. From the citizens. Everything is in one fund with us. We pay out of the one" fund our office expenses and the monetary assistance we give to soldiers, which, I may say, has increased very rapidly the last few months 28277—21 [:Mr. E. R. Cameron.] 322 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURN ED SOLDIERS beyond what it ever was before. But everything comes out of these voluntary contri- butions made by the citizens of Ottawa. Q. You feel that you have enough money to deal with the situation properly? — A. I have doubts as to that. If the large number 'of returned soldiers are coming over that we read about, 1,000 a week for 10 weeks, within a few months after they are here, many of them will be discharged and coming to us for employment and assistance, and we shall not have sufficient fmids to deal with the situation. Q. What would you do in case your resources were overtaxed? — A. We should apply at once to Toronto. Q. To the Provincial (lovernment? — A. Yes. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. And under the agreement arrived at they have consented to meet your wishes? — A. Yes. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q How many branches of the commission are there in Ontario? — A. I under- stand about .SO or ft.*^.. Q. Siniiba- to yours? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. What have the voluntary contributions amounted to? — A. The voluntary contributions this year have amounted to about $3,000. Then we get a grant of $1,000 from the city council. Q. And what do your opei-ating expenses aniount to? — A. You mean for tlu' office staH' and so on? Q. Yes?— A. About $2,500. ^ By Mr. Pardee: Q. Do you know of any Soldiers' Aid Commission which has received aid from the Government? — A. I have heard of one. Q. Which was that? — A. I have just been told that one organization got $500. By the Chairman: Q. From the Provincial Government? — A. From the Provincial Government. There may be more but I do not know as to that. By lion. Mr. Murphy: Q. Is it your commission which takes up street collections? — A. We took up a collection about a month ago, but in that instance we distributed cards to every house and called for them. Q. What I am referring to is collections about the streets and in public buildings? — A. No, that is not our organization. By the Chairman: Q. Will you be good enough to file with us for record the literature in which you ai)peal to the public? — A. I will get that from the secretary 5nd send it in. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : ^ Q. Do I understand you to say that you collect $3,000 a year? — A. We got that $3,000 in our public campaign in January last. Q. How much do you collect in the course of a year? — A. I think we realized last year from the sale of buttons about $1,500 or $1,700, and we got $1,000 from the city council. We came out ahead last year from all sources. Q. And you made payments to 450 soldiers? — A. Oh, no. All the soldiers do not need money. We find employment for the majority of them and give financial [Mr. E. R. Cameron.] RECEPTION, TUEATMEST AND RE-EDUCATIOy 323 assistance to only a limited number. In every such case we investigate the circum- stances before any grant is made. Q. With the funds at your disposal you could not give assistance lo every one? [ notice you have one man to whom you gave $70? — A. That is an exceptional aase. By Mr. Pardee: Q. I have here a clipping from the Journal-Press of this morning's date contain- ing a letter signed by Kenneth E. Macphcrson, president of the Keturned Soldiers' Association of Ottawa, in which he makes the following statements (reads) : — "Our association is most desirous of having headquarters of its own, and if the Government, the city, or any individual has vacant quarters that would be suitable for us we would gladly accept them. We are not, however, anxious to spend anything for expenses except what is absolutely necessary, as we feel that all our funds should be conserved for the relief of our needy members, and that a substantial bank balance should be built up in order to take care of our needy comrades when they start to arrive home in large numbers. ''Our present quarters consist of a room 12 feet x 15 feet, boarded off at the back of the base recruiting office. This serves temporarily as a place where maiJ can be addressed and where our executive can meet and conduct their business from. "Last December the Soldiers' Aid Commission very kindly offered to our association, and to returned men generally, the use of their quarters on Cliff street; this invitation has been renewed quite recently. The Laurentian Chapter, Daughters of the Empire, have also offered the use of the Soldiers' Club on Wellington street. We have made use of this latter club for our gen- eral meetings and have received the kindest treatment from all the ladies con- nected with that institution. "It must be pointed out, however, that while we greatly appreciate the kindness of both these institutions, neither place is suitable for our require- ments. In the first place, it is very difficult for one institution to carry on its business from the headquarters of another institution. A place is required where members of the executive, and various committees, finance, relict employment, investigation, etc., can meet and keep their records where there is room, or rooms, sufficient to accommodate a general meeting." What do you say as to that? — A. If these soldiers desire to have rooms or club quarters for themselves, and are asking the citizens to contribute towards that object, I do not see that we as an organization have any right to say to the citizens: "Do not give them this money." If the soldiers have made out a case for quarters of their own difl'ereut from those that we have, and which we have offered to place at their disposal, and the citizens are willing to contribute for that purpose, I do not see that we, as an organization, have any say in the matter. By the Chairman: Q. You have done the best you can for them? — A. We have offered them the use of the accommodation which we have. If they say that these quarters are not sufficiently large for their purpose, as I have said, they are beautifully situated, beautifully adapted for that purpose, if they were large enough. If they say they are not sufficient for their purpose, and if they have sufficient friends in the city to give them the funds with which to procure larger ones, we have no cause to interfere. I may say there are two or three members of the Canadian Returned Soldiers' Associ- ation on our executive, and two of those members were at our meeting a few days ago. We said to those two members: we will have a house committee, and we will put you on the house conunittee — we must keep the control in our own organization, but we 28277— 21i [Mr. E. R. Cameron.] 324 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.-RETURN ED SOLDIERS are not here in the evening; you are here, that is the time you use it most, and we will give you the (luarters, your own men will only come into contact with you who are returned soldiers and belong to your organization. We thought that probably the thing could be worked out in that way. But this is the first time I have known that they feel the offer we made is not sufficient for their purpose. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. How many of these returned soldiers have made use of these quarters?— A. Captain Macpherson will be better able to tell you that. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Can you tell me what has been done in the way of obtaining employment for returned soldiers? — A. 1 have some details here, but I think I had better give you that also this afternoon. By the Chairman: Q. In your judgment are the different associations already created in Ottawa sufficient to deal with the returned soldiers' problem, if they are provided with the means? A. I thiidi so. I do not think any additional organizations are required at all. ^ Q. Do the present organizations, in your judgment, overlap in their work? — A. Our organization, and this Keturned Soldiers' Association, with which Captain Macpherson, who is here, and will address you, is connected, do overlap, in that we are both trying to obtain employment for returned soldiers. Both organizations are trying to obtain employment for them, and there may also be an overlapping in regard to the question of fuiancial assistance to the returned soldiers. Q. Would it be possible for a returned soldier to obtain assistance from both organizations ?— A. He might, but we are trying to get over that by letting one another know what we are doing. We are going to try in the future to check one- another's work. The Chairman: That is all we want this morning, Mr. Cameron, if you will kindly attend the Committee this afternoon, with the further information you have promised to prepare for us. Witness filed with the Committee the following statement: — Disbursements by Soldiers' Aid Commission on behalf of soldiers, to January 26, Win. Telegrams to Quebec, etc., for relatives of returning men $ 3 49 Transport and entertainment 30 28 Camp equipment, Sapper X. and freight on same 12 17 Loans and advances in relief.. 420 00 Clothing and groceries 007- Coal and clothing delivered but still unpaid; 32 7a $533 69 More than 50 discharged men have been assisted financially. Classification of Returned Soldiers Registered at the Ottawa Branch, Soldiers' Aid Commission as to Place of Service. France, and other theatres of war. England (143) and Bermuda (24). Canada No record [Mr. E. R. Cameron.] 240 167 13S 21 RECEPTIO'S, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 325 SOLDIERS' AID CO:\rMISSION, OTTAWA BRANCH. Classification of Applicants as to Employment, For whom positions have been found 232 Of the 232 for whom positions have been found : 98 Returned from France. 60 " '• England. 11 " " Bermuda. 169 Sent to positions but have not reported 82 In Hospitals or Convalescent Home 78 Not wishing employment 55 Do not reply to communication 76 Re-enlisted 10 Unemployed 5 538 SOLDIERS' AID COMMISSION, Ottawa Branch, Headquarters, 25 Cliff street, Ottawa, Ont. To provide for the welfare of our returned soldiers is rapidly becoming one of the most serious responsibilities resting upon the Canadian people. These men have offered themselves upon the altar of Duty and Patriotism, and although they have not been called upon to make the supreme sacrifice of their lives, they are returning in ever-increasing numbers, more or less incapaci- tated from continuing their former occupations. Our duty to them is clear. They have been our substitutes on the battle- fields of France and Flanders. They have suffered in our behalf. Their bodies have been maimed in our defence. Upon us rests the high and sacred obligation of making their future lives reasonably comfortable, and as useful as possible. How this duty can be best performed is occupying the minds of all thought- ful Canadians. The Governments of Canada and the Provinces have not been unmindful of their responsibilities. In Ontario a Soldiers' Aid Commission has been appointed to deal with this problem. After full consideration it has been decided that returned soldiers can best be cared for by local Boards, estab- lished in the centres from which the soldiers were drawn. Here are their rela- tives and friends. Here they formerly had employment. Here they will prefer to reside in the future. Here they may reasonably expect to obtain sympathy, encouragement and assistance. The function of these local Boards in no way trenches upon the duty of the State to provide suitable pensions, convalescent homes, and homes for those who are permanently invalided. What is aimed at is to provide occupation for soldiers who have capacity for some employment. It is recognized that the best interests of the soldier, as well as of the State, require that, so far as he has power, every returned soldier should revert to his former condition as a wage- earner. To perform its functions the local branch has established an office at 25 Cliff Street, Arrangements have been made by which our secretary is kept informed, so far as possible, of all returned soldiers who arrive at Quebec and whose [Mr. E. R. Cameron.! 326 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— V.K.F.— RETURNED 80LD1ERS destiiaation is the city of Ottawa. In every case where such information is received, the soldier is met at the station, however late the hour, and taken to his home, if he has one. In all cases his immediate wants are provided for. Full particulars are obtained respecting his former occupation, his physical condition, local address, etc., etc. The desire is to give each returned soldier a welcome that will effect his real and lasting interest and not vanish as soon as the novelty of his situation and the story of his battles have grown stale. To accomplish this, the co-operation of the citizens of Ottawa is solicited. Employers of labour are requested to furnish information as to the extent to which they are able to provide employment. We have now about completed one year's work. In that time we have given assistance in some way to nearly 500 men who have enlisted, and subsequently have been discharged as unfit for active duty. Of these nearly all became incapacitated before reaching France or " having done their bit " at the front, have been discharged with no pension beyond a small gratuity because their disability was less than 20 per cent. Pending further consideration of the pension problem by the constituted authorities, our branch has placed itself on record as of opinion that the debt which Canada owes to the disabled soldier, although the disability is under 20 per cent, is not liquidated by returning him to his family and friends with or without a gratuity, and proposes, so far as funds are provided by our citizens, to help these soldiers along until some final and permanent solution of the question has been found. The subscriptions now solicited are required in part to enable the Com- mission to assist returned soldiers who have been discharged from the expe- ditionary force and who are therefore no longer in receipt of pay or allowances from any Government source nor from the Patriotic Fund. This assistance is absolutely necessary until such time as they can again obtain suitable employ- ment in civil life. On behalf of the Executive Committee of the Ottawa Branch Soldiers' Aid Commission. E. P. CAMERON, Chaii'mati. Retuhn Showing Occupations of the Members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force, Overseas to September 15, 1916. A. First Contingent and Reinforcements which proceeded overseas prior to March 31, 1915. B. Second and subsequent Contingents, overseas to September 15, 1916. Occupations. A. B. Totals to !^ept. 15, 1916. Professions Employers and merchants Clerical workers 2,22S 900 6,700 23.491 1,958 393 597 7,193 2,697 2.-., 203 118,796 19,859 1,549 4,.546 9,421 3.597 31.903 142,287 21,817 1,942 5,143 Farmers . Ranchers Students Totals 36,267 179,8^3 216,110 Professions. — Comprise those giving their occupations as Clergj'men, Law- yers, Doctors, Architects, Surveyors, Chemists, Civil Engineers, Artists, etc. N.B. — The records of units still in Canada are incomplete at the Record Office, therefore, no accurate statistics are available for them. IMr. K. R. Cameron.] RECEPTIOX, TliEATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 327 SOLDIERS' AID COMMISSION, (OTTAWA BRANCH) The following recommendations were submitted to a special meeting of the Executive Committee of the Ottawa Branch of the Soldiers' Aid Commission on October IG, 1916, and unanimously adopted, and a special committee consist- ing of Messrs. E. R. Cameron, K.C., W. J. Gerald, and C. Lawrence, were authorized to present these recommendations to the Board of Pension Commis- sioners at a metting to be held on Tuesday, October 17, 1916 : — 1. " That when a soldier has been enlisted for overseas service it is to be presumed an absence of fraud that he was at such time physically fit for duty, and no such soldier shall be discharged as unfit for duty on account of some complaint, disease or injury, without a pension unless it is shown affirmatively that he was suffering from such complaint at the time of enlistment and that the said complaint, disease or injury was not aggravated by the conditions imposed on him in the performance of his military duties. 2. No soldier who has been enlisted for overseas service and who subsequently is declared by the military authorities as unfit for active duty on physical grounds, shall be discharged without a pension until: (o) He receives a certificate from the military authorities giving the com- plaint, disease or injury which unfits him for active service, and which shall declare the grounds for depriving him of such pension. (6) Thirty days have elapsed from the delivery of such certificate. 3. If, within the said 30 days the said soldier obtains and files with the Pensions Board a certificate from a duly qualified physician that in his opinion the complaint, disease or injury from which the soldier suffers is not that declared in the certificate by the military authorities, or that his com- plaint, disease or injury may have been aggravated by the conditions imposed upon him in performing his military duties, he shall be entitled to have the decision of the military authorities or officer with resi>ect to the said matter reviewed by the Pension Board which shall deal with the same after the case has been reported upon by some other medical officer, specially appointed by the said Pension Board, and the discharge of the soldier shall not take effect until the said Pensions Board has given its decision upon his appeal." Witness discharged. Controller J. W. Nelsox, City Hall, Ottawa, called, sworn, and examined. By the Chairman: Q. You are Chairman of the Ottawa Municipal Reception Committee to Returned •Soldiers, are you not? — A, Yes. Q. Will you kindly describe to the committee what work you endeavour to do for them? — A. We are trying simply to meet the returned soldiers who come back to Ottawa, and to give them what is termed an " official welcome," in the name of the people of the city of Ottawa. Q. Where do you meet them? — A. At the railway stations. Q. How are you informed of the hour of their arrival? — A. Through the Secretary of the Soldiers' Aid, Mr. Cameron. Q. Who goes down to meet them? — A. We have divided the members of the council into five groups, and they take week about; there is in each sub-committee a sub-chairman, or one man, to whom Mr. Cameron sends word, and if some of the rest of the members, who are not on the committee, hear about it, they go down also. [Controller J. W. Nelson. 1 328 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Arrangements have been made so that there is always some one there to welcome them on behalf of the city. Q. Do you inform the public so that they may go also? — A. No, that is not prac- ticable, because, we only get word at four or five o'clock in the afternoon to meet the seven o'clock train. It was proposed to invite the public to join us, but the proposition was found to be impracticable. Q. What do you do for the men when you meet them ? — A. We simply shake hands with them, if we can get to them, and welcome them back; most of these men who liave returned, have been men wlio are going to the diflferent homes. Q. They are men whose destination iias already been determined? — A. Yes, there are automobiles there to take them to their destination. As a rule we do not make any further arrangements, but if a man comes to Ottawa, and when we meet him we find there is no conveyance provided for him, we will get one. Q. Your object is to have the man feel that the city of Ottawa welcomes him home? — A. Yes, that is the main object. Q. Do you have any committee to find employment for or give assistance to the men? — A. No, we have no official body of that nature at all. We passed a resolution requesting the head of every department that whenever any vacancies occurred, or when a man was needed — except in the case of technical men — returned soldiers be given the preference, and asking them whenever they had a vacancy to notify the proper official who would forward the information to the different bodies engaged in looking after the returned soldiers so that they could find a man suitable for the position. Q. Then I understand that in employment giverj by the corporation of Ottawa, you give preference always to returned soldiers? — A. That is our policy. Q. Is that pretty generally carried out? — A. No, I think we have only two or three returned soldiers employed so far for the simple reason that we have very few vacancies. When vacancies occurred they have been given the preference. For instance, there is a vacancy to-day in the lavatory, it is a boy's job as a matter of fact, but we thought possibly some returned soldier might be prepared to take that until such time as he is able to get a better one in order to tide him over. It is a $50 per month job. Q. Have you employed any returned soldiers that you afterwards had to let go ? — A. No, we have employed very few, because the opportunity for more has not arisen. I heard Mr. Cameron refer to that locomotive engineer. I got a letter, I think from the same man, who said that he did not feel fit, at that time, to go back to his job as an engineer, but he thought he might be able to fire a boiler. Unfortunately under the Ontario Law he could not be employed as a fireman, and he was not able to do hard labouring work, he wanted some light employment. He is a certified engineer, but he was unable owing to his condition to work at his trade. My idea is that we have a large number of positions in the city service, such as weigh-masters, who are employed in weighing coal and hay, there might only be thirty or forty loads a day to weigh, and I thought a man who had lost a limb or something like that would be able to perform those duties and the intention was that as vacancies in those positions occurred we would give the returned soldiers the preference, wherever they were capable of filling the position. Q. Has your Council made any appropriation toward the work of the Soldiers' Aid Association? — A. We give them $1,000 a year. Q. That is what you have already given them? — A. Yes. Q. If their work increases would you favour giving them a larger grant? — A. Of course I could not speak for the Council, I can only speak for myself, but I can say that the Council is always ready to show a generous spirit in such cases. Q. You are satisfied that from the spirit the Council has already shown, they are prepared to do their full share? — A. Yes, although we think that the Ontario Govern- [Controller J. W. Nelson.] RECEPriOy, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 329 ment which takes a war-tax out of the city of $125,000 a year, besides a large amount from the moving-picture shows, sliould at least help a little, although that does not stand in the way of the Council making proper grants. Witness discharged. Mrs. Crombik, Carloton Apartments, Ottawa, called. By the Chairman: Q. You are the President, I understand, of the Soldiers' Club, carried on by the Laurentian Chapter, I.O.D.E.?— A. I have been up till the day before yesterday, when I resigned. Q. But you know all about the work of that club, from its inception, and you have been largely responsible for its inauguration. Will you kindly tell us what the Soldiers' Club endeavours to do? — A. We have been working entirely for the men going overseas up till now. The building has been given us by the Slater estate, on Wellington street, and the Government have heated it for us, and we have made it entirely self-supporting, because we have never had any grant made to us in the two years we have been operating, but we have had donations from other sources, amount- ing to $800. Q. Is it supported by the regular funds of the Chapter? — A. It is supported by its own canteen entirely. Of course, people have given things in kind, occasionally, but we have never had anything beyond that $800. Q. What staff have you? — A. We have a working housekeeper and two women who assist. Q. You have not, then, dealt with the returned soldier? — A. Xo, except that we give meals on presentation of a ticket from the Eeturned Soldiers' Aid Association. Q. And you give them three days' meals for nothing? — A. Yes, and in one instance we gave a months' meals, but we have never turned any returned soldier away if he wants his meal. The returned soldiers do not make a great deal of use of the club, but they are always welcome to the club. We offered the use of the club to the Eeturned Soldiers' Aid Association, but, of course, they must use it on the same terms as the men going overseas. We have to leave our present building on the 10th of May. When the Returned Soldiers' Association have held a meeting they have had the use of our club for that purpose on several occasions. Q. Is it the intention of your organization to do anything further for the returned soldiers? — A. We should like to make that our work in the future, if we can be of any use; there are so very few men now in town who are going overseas and we intend to take up the work for the returned soldiers. Q. When you leave this present house, have you another house in view? — A. No, not yet. Q. Have you any suggestions to offer, or anything, from your experience that would be helpful to the committee in tlieir recommendations, regarding the treatment of the returned soldiers? — A. I can hardly tell you. They come into the Club when they think of it. They make use of the reading room, billiard room and writing room. Q. You take steps to make them aware of the fact that thoy arc always welcome? — A. Well, we notify them. By Mr. Pardee: Q. It is open all the time? — A. The canteen is open every afternoon from about four till half past nine. The Club is open all day, if they chose to come in. * Witness discharged. [Mrs. Cronibie] $30 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—liETURNED f^OLDIERS Captain Kenneth Clarke Maci'HERSon, sworn and examined. By the Chairman : Q. Your name in full? — A. Kenneth Clarke Macpherson. Q. Your rank? — A. Captain. Q. Are you at present in the active service? — A. Yes, Canadian Expeditionary Force attached to the Military Headquarters here. Q. You are President of the Canadian Association of Returned Soldiers? — A. I am. Q. Will you kindly tell us about the organization and work of that association, deal with how it came into being and its organization and charter and put on iile the documents that relate to it? — A. A meeting of returned men was called some months ago at which I was not present; that was the initial meeting. The matter was dropped then and came up later. A meeting of the men was called, and a temporary committee was formed to start the organization of the institution, and at a later meeting the officers of the associations were elected. The association is composed solely of men who have seen service overseas, not necessarily in Prance, but who have been to Britain and have returned through no fault of theirs. We examine -every man's discharge papers to see that he is discharged as medically unfit, or if they happen to have returned to Canada on leave and have been retained for services here. They are still eligible, with the exception of men who have returned on account of stoppage of working pay. I might explain that; in the old camp days there was 50 cents to a a dollar extra a day to be allowed for certain mechanics, cooks, etc., and this was continued in the early stages of the war. At a later date it was found that a great many of these men were far behind the lines, out of danger, and the Government did not think it was fair that they should be drawing the extra remuneration, over the man who was fighting in the trenches, and on January 1, 1916, this pay was stopped, and, as they made the contract, they gave the men the privilege of taking their discharge out of the forces. There was quite a large number of men came back. Q. Men who were not willing to remain there unless they got the extra pay? — A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Had they been to France ? — A. Yes, a great many of them had been to France. Q. And yet they came back? — A. Yes. By Hon. Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Were there many came back? — A. I am not aware of the number, but I believe there was a couple of thousand altogether. We had every reason to consider that these men had been led to believe they were to receive this remuneration, but we felt that men who had been over to France and had seen the condition the rest of them were up against were not playing the game in returning on account of the stoppage of pay, and they are not eligible for our association. We have an investigation committee which investigates certain cases. We had a case come up of a man that served about nine months in France: he was drawing that pay, fifty-four years old, and he said he did not feel he could carry on, and he took advantage of that and came back to Canada. He has since tried on two or three occasions to re-enlist, but could not pass the doctor. There are cases such as that, that we leave ourselves open to investigate, and if the association considers the man has done the best he could, and there are circumstances which would warrant us, we might accept him. Q. Do you require that the man should show good conduct certificates? — A. Yes, we examine all their discharge certificates. Q. A man must have a good conduct discharge? — A. Yes. Where we find we cannot be satisfied with the discharge certificates, we would take the matter up with the Department, and find out if there is anything further behind it. Q. In the choice of your officers, is there any difference in the eligibility for elec- tion ak to whether a man held a certain rank? — A. ISIo; our organization does not take into consideration whether he is an officer, a N.C.O., or a man. Q. Any man who is fit to be a member may be an officer ? — A. Yes. [Captain Kenneth Clarke Macpherson.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 331 By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Are men returned from England eligible for membership?— A. Yes; they require to have gone overseas. Xobody who has never left Canada would be eligible. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. You started to tell about some preliminary meetings to organize, but you did not tell us about the organization? — A. 1 have the charter here, which I can file, if you wish. Q. By whom is it granted? — A. By the Province of Ontario. Q. Letters Patent or by Act of Parliament? — A. As a matter of fact, I just got the copy to-day. It is signed by the Provincial Treasurer, William David ]\Iacpherson. Q. You can file it, but you might read the paragraph stating the objects of the Association? — A. Paragraph A reads as follows: — " To perpetuate the close and kindly ties of mutual service in the Great War and the recollections and associations of that experience and to maintain proper standards of dignity and honour amongst all returned soldiers; (b) To preserve the memory and records of those who suffered and died for the nation ; to see to the erection of monuments to their valour and the establishment of an Annual Memorial Day; (c) To ensure that provision is made for due care of the sick, wounded and needy among those who have served, including reasonable pensions, employment for such as are capable, soldiers' homes, medical care and proper provision for dependent families of enlisted men, and (d) To constantly inculcate loyalty to Canada and the Empire and unstinted service dn their in- terest." Q. What is the name of the Association? — A. Canadian Association of Keturned Soldiers, Ottawa District. By the Chairman: Q. Do I understand that there is an Association of Canadian Keturned Soldiers with a similar object with a membership throughout the Dominion? — A. There are two names that have been used. In Montreal there was an association known as the Canadian Association of Keturned Soldiers, Montreal District. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Is that incorporated also? — A. Yes. Q. Under what? — A. Under a Quebec charter. They are all Provincial charters. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. They are not subsidiary to each other? — A. No. I might mention that it is our dntention in the near future to have representatives of these various associations meet here, so that we can bring up questions that interest the various associations; for instance, what men are eligible. We may find a little difference in some of tlieir constitutions, and we want to have them similar, so that if a man belongs to our asso- ciation here and proceeds to Calgary or some place out there, he presents his card there and the members look after him. By the Chairman: Q. Do you desire to sec\ire a Dominion charter? — A. That is our desire eventually. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Who are the applicants for this charter? — A. Kenneth Clarke Macpherson, Joseph Bernard Henshaw, William Pemberton Morling, Joshua Zivian, John Keginald Phillips, Harry Lewis, Alexander Kirkwood, Hugh Spencer Kelph, Wdlliam Craig, Arthur Lapointe and William Lewis. [Capt. Kenneth C. Macpherson.] 332 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Are these gentlemen all soldiers who have been overseas? — A. They are all men who have been overseas. Q. ' hat is the capital stock? — A. No capital stock. 0\ir funds are secured by public subscription and by various entertainments we have put on. I have given the objects. Do you want the declaration? Q. No, that is not necessary. That will appear when it is filed. By the Chairman: Q. You have given us the objects? — A. Yes; The sole objects of our association are to pick up a man when he comes back, and if he is in need of financial assistance, give it to him, and also help him to get employment. We have been able to help a considerable luimber of men since our association has been formed, and we find there are cases that come to us from among, the men themselves that would not be heard of in any other organization. They have not the same feeling about coming to our organization as they would have in going to an outside source, and we put all our help in the form, of a loan. We simply say " He needs $10 or $25 " and we give it in the form of a loan which can be repaid by him at any time; we never press him for repayment, but if he gets on his feet again and feels he would like to refund that money, he pays h back. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Have you club quarters? — A. No, we have none. In connection with an article Which appeared in this morning's papers, I would say that a few days ago there appeared to be a controversy between the Journal and the Citizen over our quarters, and I feel in fairness to the associations — as two institutions were offered to us for quarters, that that fact ought to be brought out. We have a room which does not cost us anything; we have boarded off a place at the back of the Base Eecruiting Office. The reason we went there is that Captain'Thoburn, who is in charge of the Base Recruiting Depot, said he thought it would help considerably in recruiting to have our men constantly about the place, and he arranged to have th.is space boarded off. It is a small place, but it gives ns a headquarters where we can have our mail sent, and where we can meet. We have regular office hours from 8 to 9 a.m., from 12 to 2 p.m., and after 5 o'clock at night, when there are always some members of the organization there. By the Chairman: Q. Have you a paid staff ? — A. We pay no salaries whatever. Q. It is being conducted voluntarily? — A. Yes, by ovir own members. Q. How do you get the money that you dispense? — A. By subscriptions, by col- lections at hockey matdhes, and by concerts. Q. That is, by appealing to the generous public? — A. By appealing to the public. Q. You have no grants of any kind? — A. No grants whatever. Q. In the matter of securing employment for your men, do you utilize the Soldiers' Aid Commission or do you act independently? — A. We act independently, but we trj' to work as much in conjunction as possible. Q. Do you find that the present agencies in Ottawa are adccjuate for dealing with the returned soldiers problem? — A. Do you mean witli our two organizations? Q. No. Do you find that the existing agencies in Ottawa, which deal with returned soldiers, are adequate? — A. I think that between the two institutions at the present time they are adequate to deal with employment. We look, of course, more to the future. At the present time there is quite a bit of employment to be secured. The » difficulty is in securing the men that can carry on these positions. For instance, we do not recommend a man to go to a clerical job in a Department if he is a plumber, but to something more suitable to his position. We try to find out where positions can [Capt. Kenneth C. Macpherson.] RECEPTION', TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 333 bo secured that will be suitable for such a man, not only for the man's own benefit and wliore he can make larger wages, but for the benefit of the men in general. If we send a man to a firm and he is not suitable for the position and does not make good, the chances are that the firm will say : " We have had several returned soldiers and they have been no good." So we feel, even if a man has to wait a few days, that it is better to hold him and send him to a position for which he is suitable. Q. Has your experience led you to believe that the men are anxious and willing to work? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you found many instances of men who do not desire woi"k on the supposi- tion that the country ought to look after them for life? — A. Very few, Q. Have you sent many men to positions where they have not been able to hold them? — A. Very few. It has been through no fault of their own. We have had men taken on who have not held their positions. I had two cases of men yesterday who had been employed in the National Registration, who when they reported for duty to sign the book were told that they were not wanted any longer. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. How many have you secured employment for ? — A. Roughly speaking, between thirty and forty, that is since Christmas time. By the Chairman : Q. Are there many returned soldiers at Ottawa at present in need of employment? — A. Not a great many. Q. How many would you say? — A. As far as our organization ds concerned, I do not think more than five. Q. Why are thej' out of employment? — A. Simply that some of them have come into town very lately, and we have not been able to find anything quite suitable for them yet. The great difficulty is that there is a certain amount of employment in the Government but the men are not suitable for such positions. As far as the Militia Department is concerned they have been very good in offering positions to our men; thdy have practically given preference to any men that we can put on there and we are trying to be careful in sending men there who will be desirable, and in every case they have been taken on where they have had a vacancy. The only difficulty we have so far as Government employment is concerned is the low salaries. We have one or two men who are married, who have been getting only $41.66 a month. When you have a man who is not a skilled labourer and not a clerk, and is probably not capable of carry- ing on heavy work, which he was accustomed to do before the war, it is quite a problem. Q. These men are not receiving jHsnsions? — A. No. Last Christmas in one case 1 came across — there was no complaint from the man; we knew nothing about him — I had a list of men receiving small salaries, and I visited something like twenty-four or thirty houses, bringing parcels of Christmas things to the men; and it was very dis- couraging, some of the places brought to light things I never dreamed were going on. In the home of one man who was drawing $41.66 a month there was absolutely no sign of Christmas, and he did not even have a fire going in his house. By Mr. Pardee: Q. How many of a family had he? — A. Three children. Q. That was his entire revenue? — A. His entire revenue. Q. lie was not receiving a pension? — A. No. He has since then secured his pension. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. How much?— A. $13 or $14 a month. By the Chairman: Q. He was at that time waiting for the determination of his pension application ? — A. Yes. We were able to help them of course and give them what relief was neces- sary. rCapt. Kenneth C. Macpherson.] 334 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Have you any further instances? — A. 'We have had quite a lot of instances. 1 had four men that were employed in the Public Works, and I took their case up with Mr. Rogers. They liad been put out in some way, had no money, in fact notliing to carry on, no fire in the house when I called upon one of them, and in another case they had no food. I took the matter up witli Hon. Mr. Rogers, who referred me to Mr. Buskard, and action was not taken quite as quickly as we would like. It was probably three weeks or a month before the Department offered to take them back ngain. In the meantime we had got them employment. They had been in the Public Works Department, and were simply on temporai-y work, and had been laid oif probably through the fault of some official there. Q. Does the Hospitals Commission help you in the case of men who wish to qualify for regular civil service examination? — A. I have not had any occasion to come across the Hospitals Commission. Q. In our examination of the members of the Hospitals Commission, they men- tioned classes in a number of places where men were preparing for Civil Service appointment. — A. I have not run across any of these men. The only case I had at the ]\Iilitary Hospitals Commission was that of a man who wanted to undertake some steam engine or gasolene engine course. Q. Had this man been already discharged? — A. Yes. But the Hospitals Commis- sion were not able to take him on ; they could not give him the instruction he desired. That is the only case I had up with them. Q. From your experience coming in contact with returned soldiers, to renew my previous question, are the present agencies sufiicient and efiicient to care for the returned soldiers here in Ottawa? What additions or alterations woijld you suggest to make them more efficient? — A. Well, at the present time they are adequate to deal with employment. But looking to the future, it is hard to say. For instance, in connection with the Soldiers' Aid Commission, their work has been practically con- fined to employment so far as I know. Q. The responsibility rests with them, and what you do in that direction is simply done through mutual friendliness? — 'A. Absolutely. We endeavour to help our men in every possible way. We find that among the soldiers coming here there are always little complaints, especially if a man does not understand conditions. When these complaints come up, we have a chat with the man, and we are able to explain matters and he is satisfied; it is known among our members that if they have any complaint whatever in regard to their treatment or anything, and they let us know, we will take the matter up and investigate it, and if we feel that the man is justified we endeavour to put the case before the proper authorities. Q. In each individual case? — ^A. Yes. Q. Have you, as an organization, ever passed any resolutions or presented ajiy petitions to the Government for any alteration with respect to the treatment of returned soldiers l — A. Not that I am aware of. Q. Have you any recommendation of that kind to make? — A. I would like to recommend that something be done for the small salaried man. Also in regard to salaries, I would suggest that a man who has served overseas for one or two years has practically been in the public service, and instead of starting him in the Civil Service at $500 or $600, I think he should be given the benefit of the six months or two years he has already spent in the service of the Government, and receive the remuneration that he would receive if he had been continuously employed in the Civil Service. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Even though he had not been in the Service before? — A. Yes. He has really been in the public service, and should get the increases that would come to him in that year or two years. [Capt. Kenneth C. Macpherson.] I JiECEFTIOX, TRi:ATMi:yT ASD RE-EDUCATION 335 By the Cliairman: Q. There should be, you think, a minimum Civil Service wage for the soldier, and he should have credit for the time he has served in the military organization? — A. Yes. Q. Have you anything to say in support of that, because it is a proposal the Com- mittee will probably consider? — A. We realize, of course, under the Civil Service Act that it is impossible to pay a man in certain positions more than $41. GG but I do not think any man should be asked to work for less than $2 a day. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. If a man is being assisted by a pension, would your recommandation apply to him? — A. The pension should not enter into the matter at all. The pension is given for some disability which he has suflfored. By the Chairman: Q. It is given for decreased efficiency for which the man is not responsible. — A. I do not think the pension should enter into the question of pay at all. The CiiAiRMAx: That is the policy of the Military Hospitals Commission, as you know. You have seen their pensions placard on the wall as an encouragement to a man to learn a new trade. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. The pension is given because of the man's services, and by your proposition he would be getting a double allowance? — A. A man might put in a considerable amount of service in the C.E.F., and if he is not disabled when he returns he gets no pension. A man in the Permanent Force, who has put in a certain number of years, is however entitled to a certain pension. Ml-. Ross (Middlesex) : Your suggestion would be logical with regard to the man who gets no pension. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. He would be given his pay, his pension, and virtually an extra pension in that case? — A. The man is paid during the time he is in the Army, very small pay con- sidering the risks he is taking with his life. Then when he comes back, if he has lost an eye or a leg, or something, he is disabled and the pension is really for the loss of that eye or limb. Q. A good many men have got more pay after they joined the Army, with the separation allowance. Patriotic Fund, etc., than they ever got before? — A. Some have, but many have not. Q. In the second place, they get a pension when they come back, then further pay because they have been serving in the iVrmy by getting the higher pay suggested in the Civil Service as though they had been in the Civil Service and had not been serv- ing in the Army? — A. That is only fair, because the man has been in the public service. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. In the highest form of public service? — A. In the highest form. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. What is the practice in other countries, how does the rate of pay compare with ours? — A. As far as the men here are concerned, with the exception of Australia, the rate of pay is probably the highest. . Q. I was not speaking of that, but of civilian pay? — A. For instance, in the French Army, I understand that they get two pence, about 4 cents a day. Q. Wliat would a man in Franco probably earn in civilian life? — A. I do not know exactly what the wage is in France. The wage, of course, is very low. The only case that I ran into which gave me personal knowledge of the wage conditions over there, [Capt. Kenneth C. Marphorson] 336 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS was in Belgium. It was the case of a woman who worked on a farm and the work done by her did not in any way correspond to the farm work done by a woman in this country. This Belgium woman cletftis the stables and carries in the bags of potatoes — over there the majority of such women are as strong as a man — and for the work she does receives about 10 francs, or about $2 per month. By Mr. Boss {Middlesex) : Q. Mr. E. R. Cameron gave evidence here to-day regarding the treatment accorded to returned soldiers. What has been the usual complaint of these men on their return ? — A. The great demand is to get a position as quickly as possible, where they will earn proper wages. Q. What is the usual fault-finding they indulge in ? — A. In regard to waiting for their pensions. Q. That is one of their complaints, is it ?— A. That is one of their complaints, as to the period they have to wait for their pensions. They do not know when they are going to get their pensions, in fact, they do not know where they are at. By Mr. Pardee: Q. But that delay has been done away with now? — A. Then if that has been fixed one great difficulty ought to be solved. Q. From your experience, what other causes of complaint have the returned soldiers other than those just mentioned? — A. In my experience it has been mostly where men have been struck off the strength of the Expeditionary Force and struck off the pay list. The Patriotic grant is also stopped, and the men find they are simplj landed on the public without any money to carry on. Of course from single mev there have been very few complaints, they do not feel the difficulty in the same way, but where a man has a family of four or five phildren, as happens in the case of some men who have complained, it is a great hardship. Even if the returned soldier has money to carry on with, say $40 or $50, that $40 or $50 means a tremendous amount of money for him to have in reserve, and when he is released and has to wait perhaps two or three weeks to get a position, he feels aggrieved. Q. What remedy do you suggest? — A. I would suggest that some means be taken whereby the man's pay can be continued for a certain period. Q. For how long? — A. To give him an opportunity of getting another position. Q. Would you apply that to both married and single men? — A. Yes. Q. For how long a term would you say they ought to be continued on pay? — A. I should think that a man ought to be able to secure a position a month after he has returned to his home town, that is if he is in a position to work. We have had cases where men have been discharged, and afterwards have taken fits and were far from well, although they appeared to be so. There is a certain reaction of the nerves going on, and in some cases, even when the men get positions they are unable to hold them. By the Chairman: Q. But you are aware that such men could be re-boarded and if necessary sent back to Hospital for treatment? — A. Yes, but take a case like the one I am going to mention. We have got a chap in the Montreal hospital who was discharged and pen- sioned on an 80 per cent disability basis. He had to walk with two sticks and had to tread on his heels. He showed one of his feet to me. The toes of that foot were all stiff and the foot was practically almost cold. I said to him that he ought to take the matter up, that I did not think his foot looked in a healthy state, so he went down to Montreal and interviewed Dr. Garrow. Dr. Garruw advised him to have the toes taken' oft' and undergo certain treatment. When he returned I sent him to Mr. Scammell and it was arranged that he should go down to ]\rontreal and undergo treatment in the hospital. [Capt. Kenneth C. Macpherson.] RECEPTIOy, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 337 Q. And the man was re-attested ? — A. No, he was not re-attested, he was not taken on. He is in the Government employ. An Order in Council was put throu{?h {^ranting him his salary while he was absent. In the Montreal Hospital they had to take off half that man's foot. It seemed to me the otKcials were rather lax when they were discharg- ing him, that they did not find out his condition. Gangrene had set in and the man was told that if he had been six months later in undergoing treatment he would have had to lose his leg. It looked like a laxity to me, the way that man was treated in the beginning. By Mr. h'oss (Middlesex) : Q, Had the man been in the hospital? — A, He had been in the hospital for a great many months. He had been gassed at the front, and there was difficulty in giving him an anesthetic. By Mr. Bardee: Q. Bearing in mind what has already been done to meet the complaints of the men, and what should be done to correct the difficulties you have enumerated this morning, what other complaints are made by the returned soldiers? — A. We have had a number of complaints with regard to gratuities. The men feel tliat they should be accorded better treatment than merely presented with $50 and let out. There was one case I might speak about, which Mr. A. G. Cameron mentioned to me when I was down there. I have not come into contact with the man myself; he is a Belgian who did not go over to France, but was left in England. That man, I believe, has had nothing given him yet, according to Mr. Cameron, his leg is all crooked and he has to hobble around the room. By the Chairman: Q. Did this man serve on the Canadian Expeditionary Force? — A. Yes. Ho went over to England, but met with an accident there. If I remember rightly, he was kicked by a horse. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Through his own negligence? — A. Xo, if I remember correctly it was through an accident. Brigadier General Mason : In clause 2 of the Charter of the Ontario Soldiers' Aid Commission, it is provided: (reads) "That each province should assume the responsibility for finding employ- ment for discharged soldiers who upon their return to Canada are physically and otherwise fit to assume such employment, and all expenditures necessary in undertaking this duty are borne by the province." Would that provision not apply in some of these cases spoken of by the witness, where employment is needed for the returned soldier? The Chairman : The duty of finding employment for returned soldiers falls on the Soldiers' Aid Commission. As far as the Canadian Association for Keturned Soldiers is concerned, they find employment for one another mutually, as a friendly act. The Witness: It is not an obligation, but we regularly aid in looking after appointments for them, the same as we do in the matter of bestowing relief. If a man comes to us with the complaint that he cannot get work and has no money to carry on, two members of the association visit his house and find out all the parti- culars they can concerning him and his case, in order to determine whether he is deserving and that there is no malignering, and in the majority of cases we have found that we were quite justified in giving them relief. 28277—22 [Capt. Kenneth C. Macpherson.^ 338 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.f:.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. In the case of helping any soldier, I suppose you would keep in touch with the Soldiers' Aid Association, so that you would not overlap in the work? — A. As much as possible we try to co-operate with each other so as not to overlap. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. It is evident that there was some dissatisfaction with the quarters referred to by the Soldiers' Aid. I would ask the question, to what extent are these quarters used by the returned soldiers? — A. I do not think they are used a great deal; our associa- tion does not use them practically at all. There have been cases when men came into town having no place to go to, they gave them rooms down there, and the Soldiers' Club have given them meals. Q. There is a paragraph in the local paper this morning about that? — A. That was written by myself. There was some question came up in the papers some days ago advocating that quarters be granted — we had not said anything about it, but the Journal took it up and said it did not see why two clubs should be inflicted on the public, referring mainly to the Soldiers' Club on "Wellington Street. Both these clubs have been very kind in offering their quarters. We use the Soldiers' Club for our general meetings as much as possible, but in neither of the clubs is there a room large enough for us to hold a proper meeting. Our Association is growing every day. Both these institutions to which I have referred deal not only with the returned soldiers, but also with the men that are discharged in Canada, and when the city is filled with troops these clubs are filled up, so that it is really impossible to carry on business in rooms or quarters, where you have not full control so that you can do as you like. By the Chairman: Q. I should think you would really form a club with a membership fee, and your- selves acquire a building that would meet the requirements of the club. That would be far better than looking to outside sources for assistance ? — A. Yes. We have a small membership fee of $2 a year. We do not feel justified in charging any more than that. In paying the $2 fee the men feel that it is their own club and that they have the right to say what they want to. Of course we cannot carry on the relief work without out- side support. In the days to come we realize, however, when relief work is not neces- sary to any extent, and when w6 have all kinds of membership composed of the men who have come back, it will be self-supporting. Q. I should say that the social opportunities which you require for a club could be provided for out of your own membership fees ? — A. They will be eventually. Q. And that you will ask and receive from the general public such money as is required for the relief work? — A. We do not desire, at the present time, to use any of our funds for the building, unless it was put up as a special campaign for the build- ing. We have collected this money from the public, and we want to use every cent that comes in for relief work. Q. What is your membership at present ? — A. About 210. Q. That will give you a revenue of $420 a year? — A. Of course many of our mem- bers have not been able to pay their subscription yet. We have only been going as an organization, since just before Christmas, and $2,447.74 have been collected since that time in donations. Then we have put on all sorts of hockey matches, bridges, and different things of that sort, from which we have derived some $1,264.26; our member- ship fees amount to $132, making total receipts of $3,844. Our disbursements and expenses of different sorts, including rental of theatres and that sort of thing, $300; general expenses, telegrams, $13.46, postage $19, sundries, $74.18, making total general expenses of $116. Our relief amounted since Christmas to $414.70; funeral expenses, one or two members of the Eeturned Soldiers Association died, and we sent a wreath and pall-bearers, costing $9, and we have a balance in the bank of $3,013. Q. Ample for your present needs? — A. Ample for our present needs. But we are trying to conserve as much as possible at the present time our resources; we think we [Capt. Kenneth C. Macpherson.l RECEPTlOy, TREATMEXT ASD RE-EDUCATIOX 339 ought to pile up a reserve now, because after the war is over there will probably be tremendous scarcity of money, so that it will be impossible to raise any funds. For that reason we are trying, as much as pos'sible, to husband our resources so that when our men come back in large numbers requiring our assistance, we will have something to fall back upon. That is one of the main reasons we are not anxious to take up any building scheme at the present time. Q. But you are in a financial position that would warrant you renting suitable quarters for your purpose? — A. Yes. I might say that wo have in connection with our Association a lately formed auxiliary of ladies, who have undertaken to take up small collections of 25 cents up to $1 a month so that we will have revenue to count on right along. Q. Who is the treasurer of your organization? — A. l^\v. J. R. Phillips. Q. Who is your auditor? — A. We have not appointed one yet, but we are going to liave an outside auditor, i)ermanently, a chartered accountant, and of course will l)ublisli our audit. Q. Does your charter require you to render any financial statement to the Pro- vincial Government? — A. 1 only got a copy of this charter within the last two or three weeks and I have not gone through it yet, therefore I could not say, but it is on file liere. With regard to this Ladies Association, one of the ladies here has practically suaranteed that she will raise $1,400 a month, by the small subscriptions through ■ ditrerent firms that have been anxious to help. Q. What is your object, mainly, in piling up this reserve? Do you intend to invest it in property, in buying premises or anything of that kind? — A. No, we do not intend to buy any premises. Q. Do you intend to use the interest on it in your relief work? — A. The whole of it will simply be used on relief work, and if it is not used in that way, it will either be lying in the bank, or Government bonds can be bought with it. Q. Your idea is to use the interest, but not the principal, is that it? — A. No, we will use the whole thing, or whatever amount is necessary, it all depends on theneeds. We do not know what the conditions will be, but as everybody knows, after the war is over there will be difficulty in raising funds. Q. You have $3,000 now, and you are going to get from $1,000 to $1,500 a month? — A. Yes. Q. What are you expecting will constitute the drain on that fund? — A. Relief work. Q. Relief work for your own members? — A. Yes. Of course when the thing is over, if there is any balance on hand, after the relief work is done, it can be used for our quarters. Q. You have in mind that this Canadian Association of Returned Soldiers will be a permanent organization ? — A. Oh, absolutely. Q. Continuing for many years after the war? — A. Yes, run on the same prineii)le as a lodge. We will have different branches in the different cities, and when one man goes from one place to another, he will have the assistance of the members in that district. Q. Have you any plans for the future as to what lines of usefulness you might follow? — A. Do you mean in the immediate future or far future? Q. In the far future? — A. There has not been any great discussion of that. We have had our time pretty well taken up with the present near future. Q. Do you expect your association will be the authorized mouthpiece of the re- ti-rned soldier? — A. Yes. Q. In voicing their wishes and opinions in the future? — A. Yes. We feel that we cfin help considerably in many ways if we are recognized in that way. The men are very anxious to do everything they can to help each other, they are very anxious to do everything they can to help recruiting, and in fact our organization has offered to give 28277— 22J [Capt. Kenneth C. Macpherson] any assistance we possibly can render in recruiting. Somebody informed me yesterday that in Toronto they are forming a reinforcing company, which is practically being recruited by the returned men. Q. War veterans? — A. Yes. Q. To your knowledge is there any organization of any kind where the men dis- cliarged in Canada meet? — A. No organization, no fraternal organization. Q. And these men are ineligible, as far as you are concerned? — A. Ineligible as far as we are concerned. Q. What area do you cover geographically? — A. We have no specified area; we speak of the Ottawa district in order that we may take in any of the small places about where there is an organization covering it. I think in these little places, when they liave enough men to form a local organization, we will bring them in under our charter. Q. Will they be part of your' organization ? — A. Yes. Q. They will be part of your Ontario organization? — A. Yes: that is up to them. We have tried to help them at one or two points. Q. Is there any provincial organization charged with the organization and found- ing of branches throughout Ontario?- — A. Of our organization? Q. Yes? — A. No. I have been away for the last two weeks, but since I have come back I have been informed there is a convention in Toronto to be held, I thiidc, about the ISth of this month to discuss matters. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. To discuss what is to be done? — A. There are certain matters to be discussed. By the Chairman : Q. When do they meet? Mr. ZiviAN : They will meet in Toronto when this Parliamentary Commitee meets there. The Chairman : We will be glad to have representatives from them before us. Witness: I think in all our organizations, from what I have seen of them, they are all very reasonable in anything they ask. We have had absolutely no difficulty with any of our men at all. Of course you will find some who complain but when things are explained to them there are no differences. Q. Will you state to your men that this committee would be glad to have that convention convey to us any opinions or suggestions that they think may help us in our inquiry? — A. Yes. Q. Are men who have served in the Imperial regiments or men who have served in the French or Belgian army eligible for membership? — A. Men who have served in the Imperial forces. Q. How about the French and Belgian? — A. I do not know whether our constitu- tion covers that, but men who have served in the Imperial Army are eligible. By Mr. Pardee: Q. As a returned soldier what would you suggest to this committee? You are the first returned soldier who has given his views. What would you suggest by way of amelioration, anything which you think ought to be done that has not been done? — A. Well, I do not know. It is a very difficult question. Q. You have grievances? — A. Yes. I would suggest that our association through- out the country be used as a mouthpiece for the returned soldiers. Q. That is a matter of internal economy for yourselves? — A. Yes, and that there should be some Government committee which would take these questions up. <^. A committee of the House of Commons? — A. Well, a committee appoiiitej by the House -of Commons. [Capt. Kenneth C. Macpheraon] HECEI'TIOy, TREATMENT AND ItE-EDLCATION 341 Q. What you mean is that at the present time you are not able to make sugges- tions of what the complaints are, but when they have been made that they should come through this committee? — A. Yes, and that they should be investigated. By Mr. Pardee: Q. At the present time the only thing you have to complain of is this hiatus between the time the men are discharged? — A. That is the main thing at the present time. Q. Is there anything else at all but that and the 20,000 men, or the less than 20,000 men?— A. Well, the gratuity men. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. You think the gratuity man is not treated fairly. You made a suggestion that you think a man ought to be able to get funds to carry on at the end of the month. The Government have been looking after the man discharged, and giving him a gratuity which is not sufficient, and supposing they keep him on pay for a month, would he be able in that time to get in shape to carry on his work? — A. I think so, if he is really able to carry on his work. Q. Would that be too short? Mr. Cameron says six months? — A. I do not think that is necessary. I think if a man is fit, and there is a proper employment committee, he should be able to get it in two months. Q. That would do away with the complaint in regard to the gratuity? — A. Yes, I think so: unless a man is disabled to any extent. We have not had a great many cases, but there is that sort of feeling that they are not being properly treated. By the Chairman: Q. You are wearing the Patriotic Fund service button : you got that for service in France? — A. Yes. Q. Do you find that that is appreciated by the soldiers? — A. Greatly appreciated. Q. Would that assist you in determining the difference between the sheep and the the goats, so to speak? — A. Tremendously. I do not know what the men would do without it. If he takes it off, he is stopped by every recruiting sergeant about the place. Q. Would you advocate that the Patriotic Fund should continue giving that button? — A. I understand that the Dominion Government has under consideration the giving of other buttons. Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Orders in Council to that effect have been passed. The Witness: There are various kinds of buttons issued covering men who have served in France, in England, or in munitions work. By the Chairman: Q. Would you advise the Patriotic Fund to continue to issue their button? We are quite willing to do so. — A. I think they do not really need the two of them. But they do appreciate the badge. Q. Have you heard of any counterfeiting or selling of these buttons? — A. I heard some mention some tira;^ ago of that over in Hull, but I never heard what came of it. Some of our men went over there to try to get to the bottom of it, but I never learned the result. The CuAraMAN : You would oblige us very much if you would send us any informa- tion regarding this matter that you may discover. If you have anything further to add at our afternoon sitting, we would be glad to hear you. (See also Exhibit No. 2 in Appendix herein). Witness retired. Committee adjourned. [Caot. Kenneth C. Macpherson] The Committee resumed at 2.38 p.m. The examination of Captain Kenneth Macpheuson resumed. The Chairman: If there is anything you would like to add to the evidence you have already given we would be very glad to receive your statements. The Witness: I think there is very little more I can add, except, perhaps, some suggestions in regard to the future. I would suggest that when the men are coming back from the front in large numbers that some way be adopted of absorbing them, instead of keeping them too long. Doubtless there will be all kinds of suggestions as to the best way of demobilizing, as to whether or not the men should be kept in camps and all that sort of thing. There has been a lot of talk among the public and a great deal of comment in the newspapers with regard to settling the returned soldiers upon the land. I think you will find that only a very small proportion of them— perhaps 10 per cent, and certainly not more than 15 per cent — will go on the land. Of course, as to that, a great deal will depend upon the amount of backing granted by the Gov- ernment. I noticed the other day in the press an announcement regarding the Ontario Government giving SO acres (10 acres cleared) and an advance of $500. I think, instead of giving an advance, it would be better if materials vrere purchased for the men, implements and that sort of thing. Mr. MiDDLEBRO : That is what the. Government is going to do. The Witness : I have not seen the details of the scheme, but it struck us at the time that if such were the proposition it would be rather a hard thing for a man to make any kind of a start on $500. By the time he has purchased a team of horses and fixed his barns and house up he won't have very much working capital left. We were figuring the other day that, taking a month's war expenditure of the country at $40,000,000, something like 27,000 men could be put on the land and helped to the extent of about $1,500 each. With respect to the remainder of the men, I think that some efforts ought to be made to mobilize all our industrial forces to find out how many men these would be able to take care of. Where it is possible, the men should be located in the municipality they came from. They will want to be as near their former homes as possible and will i^robably be better off there. In the factories now devoted to the manufacture of munitions — which will doubtless transfer their atten- tion to the production of other materials when the war is over — many of the men could be absorbed, and arrangements made towards that end. I think those are about the only two points we are anxious about, namely, the land settlement policy and the return of the men to their civil positions. The Chairman: We are very much obliged to you for your evidence. If, upon reflection, there is anything you wish to add to your evidence, if you will forward it to the Committee we shall be very glad to receive it, By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. You were in civil life, I assume, up to the time the war broke out? — A. Yes. Q. You are now attached to the Militia Department? — A. Yes. Q. Permanently? — A. No, sir, I am an Expeditionary Force man still. Q. In connection with the organization of this Canadian Association of Keturned Soldiers, the charter of which was read here this morning and a copy of which was placed on file, shows that you were incorporated for the Ottawa District? — A. Yes. Q. And I understood you to say there was a similar Canadian Eeturned Soldiers Association in a uunil:)er of other places in other provinces? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Are all these Associations incorporated with the same object? — A. In sub- rtarice they are practically the same. Their charters may differ slightly in character. That I cannot say because I have not seen them. Q. I also understood you to say that later on it was intended to seek Dominion incorporation? — A. Yes, Dominion incorporation. There is a Provincial gathering [Capt. Kenneth C. Macpherson.] in Toronto this month, as I mentioned tliis morning, and we propose as far as possible to get from our various Associations a' consensus of opinion as to the feeling of the men. Then about the time Parliament would be re-opening, possibly, have a Con- vention in Ottawa attended by representatives of these various Associatioiis,- discuss the diil'erent problems we have in view and elect a National Council In that way we could gather the opinions of the men from all over the country and perhaps assist the Government in the carrying out of any plans they may have in view. Q. This morning in answer to a question asked by ^Ir. Pardee, T think I under- stood you to say that the Orders in Council which had been recently passed by the Government had met the complaints of the returned soldiers? — A. I did not say that. Q. That they have covered the difficulty? — A. I did not say that, but somebody else, I think, did. Q. I understood you to say that the returned soldiers had no complaints at the present time, that one of their complaints dealing with covering the gap between the time certain pay ceased and the pension was awarded, had been remedied by a recent Order in Council. I understood you to say that? — A. I did not say that. I think probably ]\Ir. Cameron made that statement. Q. Did you know that was the ii\et'( — A. That is one of the difficulties. I was not aware though that it was the fact. Q. I understood you to say, in fact, that the returned soldiers had no complaints, or no grievances, at ithe present time? — A. No, I did not say that. Q. What grievances have they? — A. The grievances have been small. The majority of the men have a grievance in regard to the gratuities. They do not like the gratuities. Even if a man is only incapacitated to a 20 percent degree he is disabled for life to a certain extent Q. That is one of the grievances ? — A. And the other was the gap between leaving off military life and going into civil life again, where the men have no means of supporting themselves. Q. You mean getting re-employment? —A. Getting re-employment. Q. This organization of your numbers some 210 members, does it not? — A. About 210 members we have here. Q. That will be a very small proportion of the men who have enlisted? — A. Yes, ^■cry. Q. I understood you further to say that the desire of your Association was that it should be the mouthpiece of the returned soldiers? — A. Yes. Q. That is that any complaints or claims which they might want to make, should be made through your Association? — A. Yes. Q. And that you wanted to be recognized as the mouthpiece of the returned sol- diers? — A. Yes. Q. As only a very small proportion of soldiers have returned, let us assume that the large majority who may return, may not join your Association, but may take i1 into their heads to form another Association. In that case would you take the ground that the3' should not be listened to? — A. I do not tlnink it is at all likely that there will be another Association formed. Q. Is there anything to prevent them from doing what you have done when they come back, that is, form an Association? — A. No, so far as I know,»any more than there is in forming another Club in the city. But I think our Association covers all the aims that any man would want or that another Association would have in view. By the Chairman: Q. You have an Act of Incorporation, and if another similar organization were formed and applied for a charter, the question might be asked why it was necessary to have another incorporation? — A. The only other Association or organization which would be likely to crop up would be of men not eligible fpr our Association. Mr. Ross (^fiddlesex) : The members of your Association consists of men who luive gone overseas? [Capt. Kenneth C. Macpherson.] By lion. Mr. Murphy: Q. I know a number of the men who have gone overseas, and they hold views difEer- ent from those which you have expressed this morning. These men when they come back may not join your Association? — A. They may not, it is not compulsory for them to do so. Q. Then I want to know why these men should not be listened to instead of repre- sentations being limited to your Association? — A. I think if you have an Association that can listen to any representations the men desire to make, it will serve their pur- pose best and also save the Government a considerable lot of trouble. By the Chairman: Q. In other words, you do not approve of these individual complaints which are rushed into the newspapers with only the name of one man behind them? — A. No. I do not thdnk that is always wise. Q. The representations would have a more valid and effective voice through the backing of your Association? — A. Yes. I do not think a man gains anything by run- ning around the streets with a lot of stories, he puts foolish ideas into some people's heads. If men who have just cause for complaint and belong to' our Association bring the matter to our notice, and we make representations to the proper authorities, they are far more likely to have their complaints answered. Q. And on the other hand, there is less likelihood of complaints being made which will not stand investigation? — A. Far less likely. If the men feel they have an Asso- ciation to whom they can go and make their complaint in writing, and if our investiga- tion committee looks into the matter and says it is just and right, whatever the com- pladnt consists of — whether it relates to pay or pension — and we bring it to the proper authority it is only reasonable to expect it will get recognition. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. What I had in mind was the great danger of duplication and multiplication of unnecessary Associations or bodies, as there are over-lapping demands for public assistance. It is with a view of trying to qualify this situation that I am asking you these questions? — A. I quite understand. Q. For instance, yo-ur Association and the Soldiers' Aid Association do practically the same work in Ottawa? — A. To a certain extent. Q. Until a letter was read from the newspaper this morning which you after- wards said you had written, I was not aware of the fact that discussion had been going on regarding suitable quarters for your association. Having heard that letter read and having heard your statements I am yet unable to see why, from the econo- mical point of view and from the point of view 'of not subjecting the public to unneces- sary demands, the building of the Soldiers' Aid Commission on Cliff street cannot be used by your Association. I happen to know that building, and I would like to ask why it cannot be made suitable by means of partitions for two such Associations ? — A. I do not think it is possible for one institution to carry on its work under the roof of another institution. Q. Do I imderstand you to mean by that that you do ,not want the accommoda- tion offered in the Cliff street building but prefer to be by yourselves? — A. We pre- fer to be by ourselves. Q. So that no matter what kind of house they have to place at your disposal you much prefer to have one oT your own ? — A. We would much prefer that, if it is at all possible. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Do I understand that the soldiers cared for by the Soldiers' Aid Association and those looked after by your own Association are two different classes of men? — A. Yes, that is one of the difficulties. Both the Soldiers' Aid Association and the [Capt. Kenneth C. Macpherson.] Soldiers' Club include in their treatment all classes of men. "We do not. We simj take the man who has been overseas. Those are the only people we are interested at all. ^y the Chainnan: Q. In other words, it is the elite of the ser\'ice with whom you deal, the m who have been overseas and honourably discharged? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Murphy : Q. That would scarcely affect the question I was dealing with, as to the use the Cliff street building as a club house? — A. We did not bring up the question the club house ourselves. The Citizen published an article dealing with the matter. Q. But I understand your Association prefers to be alone and have its own quj ters? — A. Yes, our own quarters. Q. Are you aware that in other places these two bodies manage to get alo; together? — A. No, I do not know that I am aware of it. Q. I am told that in the city of Winnipeg, for instance, they have one of t strongest organizations in this country? — A, The Soldiers' Aid Association is pun an Ontario organization. Q. The provincial body corresponding to the Soldiers' Aid Association in Mai toba is the same in character but only different in name. Now, are you aware tb these two bodies co-operate there? — A. I understood there was some arrangement that sort. Q. I think there is a joint procuring and re-distribution of funds? — A. Yes. Q. Why could not arrangements of that kind be made in Ottawa? — A. It cou be done, but our efforts are not in that direction, we are not interested in the men d charged in Canada at all. Q. But in a big city like Winnipeg, from which there has been an enormo enlistment, and where this has been worked out in practice, and where there is on one demand made on the public, botli the Returned Soldiers Association and t Soldiers' Aid Association are represented on this Committee. You see the pub! have added confidence in what is done under those circumstances? — A. I see \\h you mean. Q. And they are not subject to the same number of demands. Do you not thii that is feasible in Ottawa? — A. We say that we feel we ought to put our efforts towa assisting the returned men. Q. And you have not made any attempt to work that out in Ottawa ? — A. No, ' have not. , Q. Was it your Association that made a canvass, a month or so ago, for $25,00 —A. Yes. ^ Q. How much of that did you get ? — A. We have raised altogether about $3,S( I think. Q. What necessity w'ould there be for such an amount of money as that? — A. "V aimed high, as it were, to get capital back of us. Q. Has anybody connected with your Association ever thought of the old adaj about killing the goose that laid the golden egg? — A. I do not know. Q. You have not thought of it yet? — A. Not yet. Q. This morning you mentioned some auxiliary from which you expected to g $1,400 through one lady?^A. Yes. Q. What need is there of such a large collection as that? — A. We are not lookii to the present, but to the future. We will be up against a big proposition, "when t men come back ; something like 9,000 men have left Ottawa, and when they come hoi we will be up against a proposition tliat we know nothing about. Q. And knowing nothing about it you prepare to meet it on that scale? — A. Th was far beyond what we ever exjiected to get; but these ladies were very anxious help us. and they have formed an Auxiliary of our Association. [Capt. Kenneth C. Macpherson.] Q. Is that one of the existing- ladies' associations, or is it a new one? — A. It is composed of ladies who are members of various organizations, and they are now con- centrating their efforts in a new organization to assist us. Q. That will amount to $1G,800 a year which you will receive from them apart from -what you get from other sources. How would you require so much money as that except for a club house? — A. If you notice the financial statement for Winnipeg you will see that in the six months their organization has been in force there, they used up $18,000 and there are about 1,000 men there. We will have a considerable number of men coming back here, and, after the requirements are met with regard to relief and everything of that kind, if we have the money it would probably go to help us out with the club house, but we do not look for anything elaborate at the present time. In fact, if we make any appeal for a club house, it will be understood that the money we cor.ect will be absolutely for that purpose. We want the public to feci that the funds we collect are foe the relief of the men, and that our expenses are very low. We have no salaries, no rent and no light to pay, we have practically nothing to pay out, except for relief. Q. You are at some expenditure for carrying on the work of the organization, are you not? — A. Very little; there is stationery, and supplies of that sort. We rent a typewriter, and there is postage to pay. Q. Is there anybody in receipt of a salary? — A. ISTo, not whatever. Q. And the intention is to continue along in that way? — A. As long as possible, but it is natural to expect that when our work gets to such a proportion that it will require a man to be there continually, we will have to pay him for his time. By the Chairman : Q. Will you place on file for the record the literature that jyou use in the appeal to the public for $25,000? There was some newspaper literature, and we want to know what your proposition to the public was? — A. Yes, I will do so. By Mr. Pardee: Q. We have had evidence here with regard to a number of men who were dis- charged in Canada, and a number of men who were discharged in England without going to the front at all. Where do you draw the distinction between the man who has been in the service here for some considerable length of time, and has then been discharged by reason of the fact that his health has failed, and the man who goes to England and gets his discharge for the same reason? What is the distinction? — A. You will find many men, of course, that have only been a week or two weeks in the service before they are discharged. That fact makes it very difficult to draw the line. Q. The argument you apply there is, supposing a man has been in the service here for a year and then breaks down, he is not placed on the same basis as the man who has been in the service for a year and a day and crosses the ocean before he breaks down. Can you tell me where the difference is between those two men? — A. The majority of the time he is iij Canada he is with his own people, or near his own home. Q. No, he is not. I have knowledge of cases in my own town, two or three cases, where men who have been in the service for months have been discharged, and there have been other cases where the men have gone overseas and have been discharged there. What is the difference between those cases? — A. It is a very difficult thing to make a difference, but we have to draw the line somewhere. Q. Do you not think, arguing it out on your own basis, that when a man is: honourably discharged, whether he has gone overseas or not, he should be entitled to come into your association? All these men have been ready to go to the front? — A. It is not the feeling of the men that they should; they feel that if they have been overseas they will have more in common with each other. [Capt. Kenneth C. Macpherson.] By Mr. Middlcbro: Q. It does not make any diflference they do not get from the public any more than any other class? — A. It is just a matter of feeling, that is all it is. Then we run into the difficulty with regard to these home guards, men that never had any intention of leaving Canada. By Mr. Pardee: Q. They never enlisted for overseas, they did not become members of the C.E.F. Yet a great many of tiiem will feel slighted if they have put in a year over here on guard duty and are not admitted ?^A. I can only just explain that it is the feeling of our men that there is more in common between those men who have been overseas. It is not that they look down upon the men who have not been overseas at all, but that the fact that they have been overseas is a bond of friendship and brotherhood. Of course that very question is one that will have to be decided anyway when we have the Dominion convention, which is to be held shortly, so that we will then have the feeling of the men from all over the country. By the Chairman: Q. You make your appeal for assistance to tlie public, on the grouzids that your association is composed of men who have been in danger in defence of the country. You do not appeal for the man who has not been there? — A. No. By Mr. Pardee: Q. You have had 149 men from Lambton, these men have been in training for fifteen months ; they all want to go across, but the officers are told that the men can go but that they, although they have been down on their bended knees begging to go, and have been training these men for fifteen months and are practically entitled tc go overseas, are now told they cannot go except as privates. These men have all given up their business and devoted themselves to the service, and they arc just as much entitled to consideration as the others. Witness discharged. Major Hugh Spencer Eelpii, Eoyal Bank Chambers, Ottawa, called, sworn anc examined. By the Chairman: Q. You have seen active service on the front, have you not( — A. ^Yith the Prin- cess Patricias. Q. You were until recently Secretary of the Canadian Association of Eeturned Soldiers? — ^A. I was not exactly that. I was more in an advisory capacity. I offered to help them. I had not very much time to spare to help them, but I advised and helped them in every way I could. I helped to get them their charter. Q. You have been here most of the morning and heard the testimony: you know the line of investigation we have been following? — A. Yes. Q. We would be glad if you would add, of your own volition, what you can giv( us from your own experience? — A. I have spoken to the men about going on the land and I have not the slightest doubt a number of them would like to do so if they could got the projier tuition before hand. After a man has been overseas, say he is a clerk, living an indoor life previously, he digs trenches and does manual work over there, and he prefers that class of work, and if you try to get them back to their own calling you will have ditliculty. They feel a lot better with outdoor employment, and I tiiink they will (nke up that employment if they have the opportunity. Q. You have come in contact with a number of returned soldiers? — A. Yes. Q. Have you found any number of them wanted to go on the farm?— A. A lot of them thought, if they knew what the proposition was. they would accept it. Thev [Major H. S. Relph] suggested they would like to be forestry inspectors for survey parties. They are the very men for positions in parks, out door police work and things like that. Q. All under the Civil Service? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. That is quite different from going on the land? — A. Quite a lot of them would like to go on the land. A lot of them would also like outdoor life. By the Chairman: Q. We would be glad if you would tell us anything you think would be pertinent to the inquiry? — A. With regard to pensions, one man drew my attention to the fact that he had received a pension of eight or ten dollars a month, and he went back to the Bell Telephone Company where he had worked previously. He used to be a line- man, and if he had stayed he Avould have been at the top of his profession and at the limit of pay. When he came back something was the matter with his spine or leg, and he was not able to carry on that line of business, but the company gave him a position at the same salary at the office, and the Pension Board immediately cut off his pension, because they said he was drawing the same salary as he was before he went overseas. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. How did it work oiTt in dollars and cents? — A. I do not know, but I know that if he had stayed with the Bell Telephone Company he would have been drawing more. By the Chairman: Q. How long ago was that? — A. Month or six weeks. I understand the name of the man was Trudel. Q. In Ottawa?— A. Yes. Q. Can you give us the regimental number, and we will inquire into it? — A. Yes: this is a case where he has been earning the same as before, but his earning capacity was more, because he could get more as a lineman. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. These men are under the control of the local Government? — A. Yes, they are. In Alberta they are continually calling for men, and they get very good pay, and their keep, and they have tremendous survey camps there, and in British Columbia. By the Chairman: Q. That would, of course, be for the Provincial Government to fill those positions ? —A. Yes. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Supposing such a man as you refer to ceased to earn his old salary, would they restore his pension? — A. I could not say. I know they sent him a cheque for $50 or $100, and, as he was drawing the same salary, he was not entitled to the pension. There was another case of the same style of a man who returned and received his posi- tion back at the same salary, paid so much a day, and, on account of his debility, he could not always work, and he would loose six or seven days a month, and the Pension Board cut off his pension and gave him a grant of $50 or $100, and his wife had to go out to work on account of that. By the Chairman: Q. If you furnish the names of such cases we will have them looked into by the Pension Board, and ascertain what was their object in their action? — A. You spoke [Major H. S. Relph.] about the buttons. The majority of those buttons have been earned by the men, but I understand men are manufacturing them and selling them. Q. Where? — A. I drew the attention of the Patriotic Fund to that. It was in Hull, a man was selling them for $5 apiece. Q. Did you communicate to the Patriotic Fund? — A. I phoned to them. Q. Did you tell them the name of the man who was doing it? — A. We did not know it but we got one of the chaps who was an assistant salesman. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. There is a penalty for that? — x\. There was not at that time. Q. That will be safeguarded in future? — A. If the Government will issue a button such as the Imperial Government issue, if a man wears it wrongfully he can be pro- secuted. A man in Hull was manufacturing these buttons and selling them to every- body he wished to for $5. Q. Did he sell many? — A. Well, some of our men lost the buttons, and one of them went over and took a policeman with him, and the man was arrested. Mr. ZiviAX: The assistant salesman was a discharged soldier. Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : What was done with him ? Mr. ZiviAx : He was taken in charge by the Dominion Police. He was absolutely without means. ^ Witness : That question about men who were rejected in Canada was brought up. I tried to bring the matter before the Association, suggesting that every man who has enlisted for active service is exactly in the same position as any man who has been overseas and been wounded. A man may join up in Canada and may be with a cavalry unit, and may have his leg broken, 'with the result that he cannot go overseas. We have heaps of unemployed who joined the overseas forces, and went as far as they could, so that they could obtain the decoration. We had men who went as far as England, and when they got to England or to France they had heart trouble. A great many men have gone over in an honorary position. There is a great deal of difference between a combatant position and a non-combatant position. It is quite safe for a man to go over in an honorary position. A quartermaster's position is one where there is no danger to the man, but it is an important and necessary position. He never goes near the firing line. He is going to be entitled to benefits which the poor chap who volunteered to go and fight for his country and got his leg broken and did not get over it is not entitled to. By the Chairman: Q. The rejects in Canada are vei-y few, I suppose? — A. There are many. You would be surprised at the number of casualties we have in Canada. A man is passed by the doctor as physically fit when he enlists and he may not be fit ; that is the doctor's fault. The man may afterwards be in such a position that when the regiment goes overseas he is not physically fit. His intentions are just the same as the man who lioos and fights. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. And some get cold feet in England? — A. There are many would like soft jobs if they could get them. By Eon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Why don't you get rid of the whole of them? — A. I think we have got rid of all of them. Q. Thej* have all been seut to the front? — A. Yes, since the change of policy. I was in the Lonjion office and saw a number of them who were with the first con- tingent and stayed in London, but I think a number of them have been sent to France IMnjor H. S. Relph.] 350 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS since. I may say, with regard to the employment at the present moment, for the last month I liave been asking to get a returned soldier to work in my office and I have not been able to get one, and last week 1 put in an appeal for two more, and 1 do not know that I can get them. Q. 'J'he demand exceeds the supply at the present moment? — A. Yes. At the present time I know that if a man has any clerical ability at all they would not let him out of England. There is the London office and the Shorncliffe office, men who are all being trained as stenographers and typists, and book-keepers, and it is only the inferior type of men they are allowing to go and there are hundreds of business men r,nd lawyers privates in the Canadian Expeditionary .Force. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Are you quite sure of that? — A. I know we had repeated requests for the best men who had clerical experience. By lion. Mr. Murphy: Q. What about the lawyers? — A. Quite a lot of lawyers are doing odd jobs. One is using a typewriter in the C.C.A.C. offices in England. I wanted him in my office, but I have not been able to g^t him yet. His legal qualifications would stand him in good stead. By the Chairman: Q. Has he seen service at the front? — A. No, I think he was turned down as physically unfit. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What do you say are the returned soldiers' grievances now? — A. Except that slight question of pension, I do not think any. It is not the present that is to be looked after; it is the future. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. When they will come back in large numbers? — A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What do you say as to the future? — A. We v.-ill have to make tremendous plans to cope with the troops when they come back. Q. In a financial way? — A. Yes, and every way. It is easy enough to mobilize an army, but when you come to demobilize and put them into civil life again, then you will have trouble. Q. What will be your suggestion ?— A. If the Government would prepare farms ready for them, and try to obtain positions in survey parties to place the men in the open air, and open mines in the western provinces under Government control, any money expended there would come back eventually, and the men would have employ- ment. Q. Euild highways? — A. Yes, build another transcontinental railway if necessary. It would pay in the long run; it would give the men plenty of work. There will be tremendous expenses, but they would be returned in the future. If you give a grant to a returned soldier of $50 or $100, quite a few will toddle over to Hull, for instance. and spend it, and the wife and family will receive no benefit. We have some cases now where men are receiving aid from the Soldiers' Aid Commission and ffom us. You might as well throw the money away. If the assigned pay and separation allow- ance were continued for a few months in the hard cases, that might meet the situation until the men get work, and in that case the men would not be able to touch that money, because it would go to the wife. [Major H. S. Relph.] RECEPTIOX, TIIEATMEST AND RE-EDUCATIOX 351 By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. It is not money so much that id wanted, but constant employment? — A. Ye--. By Mr. Paxdee: Q. Did I understand you to say that the Returned Soldier's Association grant aid and also that the Soldiers' Aid Commission, a civilian body, grant aid likewise^ — A. In that particular case it was granted by both societies without either knowing, and that is what brought the matter up. We now work on a system where applications for aid will be compared before grants are made. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. What is your present position? — A. I am in charge of the Estates Branch. I look after the estates of officers and men who are killed, and distribute them. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Are you getting complaints in regard to the return of soldiers' uniforms, kit- and so on? — A. 1 continually get complaints. It is impossible to do everything. We do everything we can. We have a certain system that we have to keep to. Q. Hoiw long after an officer is killed does it usually take for his etfects to reach his family? — A. Personal effects, four and a half months. Sometimes we have diffi- culty in collecting them, and they are sent over here by freight steamer. Q. Sometimes I see in the papers that the relatives have to pay for the transpor- tation of thesg effects. Are you trying to avoid that? — A. In no cases have tlie rela- tives had to pay anything except through their own fault. AVe have a system of collect- ing the effects of dead officers in France, and any surplus e.^lects scattered over England if we are advised where they are, and these are sent over by freight steamer to Canada by the C.P.R. free of cost. They are checked in my office and forwarded to the rela- tives without cost. If anybody has had to i)ay for personal effects it is due to mistakes of their own, or possi1)ly throug'h some ciTor on the part of the officer commanding the unit. Q. It is because they have not known the proper system that these cases have hap- pened ? — A. Yes. There was one at Windsor. Q. And there have been others i — A. In one case a mother had written to somebody on the other side and asked them to forward the effects, which was done, and charges were collected on it. A claim was sent to the department for these charges. Q. Was it paid? — A. I do not know, it was referred to Mr. Brown. Q. In the case of dead soldiers who have left money, do you insist upon letters ol administration before releasing it? — A. iSTo, sir. Q. I)o you give it to the next of kin? — A. We go into the matter legally. I keep all original wills, and London keeps the balance. I have over 55,000 wills. Q. What do you do in th&case of a soldier who has made no will? — A. I get into communication with the relatives, find out where he was domiciled, and in accordance with provincial or state laws take the proper steps to administer the estate. It takes seven and a half months before we get the pay accounts. By Mr. Middlebro: Q. You mentioned that you had r).').000 original wills? — A. Yes, and London have about the same. Q. Are the soldiers asked to make a will? — A. Yes. when I came over here I found that was not being done, I brought the matter before General Fiset, with the result that a form was sent out, atid quite a lot of men are now making wills. Q. Are they required to do so under the regulations? — A. It is not compulsory; it is left to the districts to try have them make their wills. The reason for this is: in the case of a man in Ontario with a father and mother and seven or eight brothers [Major H. S. Relph.] 352 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—UETURNEn SOLDIERS and sisters, if there is no will, his small balance of pay would have to be distributed equally, but if he leaves a will any money he left can be sent to the person named in the will. Q. You have to comply with the requirements of the different provinces? — A. Yes, in every case. AVitness discharged. Lieutenant-Coloiiel C. S. MacInnes^ Assistant Adjutant-General, Militia Head- quar'ters, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. What position do you occupy. Colonel, in connection with the Militia Depart^ ment?-r-A. Assistant Adjutant-General at Headquarters, Ottawa. Q. What are the duties particularly of the Assistant Adjutant-General? — A. To assist the Adjutant-General in his duties, and particularly with reference to organiza- tion .'i.nd recruiting. Q. You would be able to tell uis then how many have gone overseas? — A. Yes. I do not know that I have the figures here, but, roughly speaking, as I remember, it is 200 odd thousand of the Canadian Expeditionary Forces. Q. Mow iiiany ha^'«! come hack? — ^A. That I could not say. I have not seen the recent figures since I went away two months ago. Q. Will your branch be particularly charged with demobilization ? — A- I could no\ say as to that. I understand it may be dealt with in a special manner, but so long as the men are soldiers it would be a charge to the Adjutant-General, so to speak, to take care of them. Q. Is it the Adjutant-General or his branch that determines when a man shall be discharged? — A. Yes. Q. The order for his discharge proceeds from your office? — A. Quite so. From our office or from a similar office in the Military District. It would be an Adjutant- General's matter either from Headquarters or from the Military District. Q. In the case of the men returning from the other side, would you explain to us when and how they are discharged? — A. When the men arrive at the discharge depot at Quebec or elsewhere, they are, as you know, classified into classes 1, 2 or 3. This classification is verified at the discharge depot by such further medical examination as may be necessary, and if the man is found to be in Class 1 for immediate discharge he is discharged there, and he is forwarded to the ^lilitary District to which he belongs. Q. What do you do about any pay that may be due him at that time? — A. That is dealt with under regulations dealing with Classes 1, 2 and 3. They are dealt with in different ways. My recollection is that a man is credited with a certain amount of pay from the date of his discharge, fifteen or thirty days' pay in addition to the pay that is still coming to him, and a certain amount is given to him at the discharge depot not exceeding I think $10, and the balance is forwarded to his own home or the district from which he comes. Q. Is the balance remitted generally to the Headquarters of the Military District to which he returns? It was mentioned here that an Ottawa man had to go to Kingston to get his pay? — A. That has all been threshed out by those who have been dealing with the discharge depot, as to the best method of handling the matter. The Pay Department could give you more accurately the present situation. Q. You have charge. Colonel, of the formation of a regin^ipnt to a very consider- able extent? — A. Not the authori2ation for it, that would come, of course, from the Minister or the Militia Council, and would then go to Colonel Gwynne, who is Director -General of Mobilization, who would issue instructions to the district that such [Lieut.-Colonel C. S. Maclnnie.] RECEPTIOy, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 353 and such a battalion or unit has been authorized, to be under the command of such and such an officer. Then the organization is formed and matters relating to recruiting and enlistment, etc., are dealt with by other members of the Adjutant-General's branch. Q. Who names the medical officers for the battalions? — A. Recommendations are put forward by the officer commanding the district where the unit is to be authorized, unless the practice has been changed and these are presumably considered by the Director-General of Medical Service, and the Adjutant-General, and then forwarded to the Minister. But whether it is necessary latterly for them all to be passed on by the Minister, I would not be prepared to say. Q. Judging by results, do you think it has been a wise plan to have the officer commanding a regiment responsible for the nomination of the medical man who should examine his recruits? — A. Under the battalion system, I would say certainly yes, because a medical officer, like every officer, is a member of the battalion family, so to speak, and it is very important that the medical officer, as all others, should be a man satis- factory to the commanding officer. Q. Are you able to tell us how many enlisted men of the total number enlisted in Canada have been dropped before the regiments went overseas? — A. No. I may say that I have been endeavouring for some time past to get accurate figures from the diflFerent military districts on that subject. We have figures as to those who have been enlisted. Even as to these there has been considerable difficulty in getting accurate figures. I think we have now got them fairly accurate. One difficulty has been that men are enlisted in one district and are then perhaps transferred immediately to another district, and there is difficulty in knowing whether that man has been, so to speak, credited or counted twice. Then we also have returns from the districts of men who have been discharged in a particular district. There again there is difficulty because in some cases undoubtedly men have been taken on and have been counted as enlisted without a complete enlistment having been made, and that being so a formal discharge was not considered necessary in the district. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What do you mean by saying " without a complete enlistment having been made?" — A. Without having been attested before a Justice of the Peace or a field officer. By the Chairman : Q. Are you able to give us approximately the number of men who have enlisted in Canada and who have been discharged in Canada without going overseas? — A. My recollection is that out of 400,000 men enlisted, judging from the figures we have now. it is in the neighbourhood of 50,000. Q. Who have been enlisted and discharged from the units in Canada before going overseas ? — A. Yes. Q. Can you tell me how many men from the units that have gone to England have been rejected as unfit over there? — A. No, it would not be possible to say that, because what happens in England is that these men arrive and if they are not considered to be absolutely up to standard they are not necessarily discharged but are put into classifications. That is to say, a man fit for the front is called an " A " man, that is a man fit for all purposes at the front. A man who is fit for service at the front but not for all purposes is called a " B " man ; in other words that man could be employed on roadmaking or railway construction or something of that kind. A man who is fit only for garrison duty or work in England is called a " C " man, and these men are employed tlierc as military police or on clerical work, or on other duties that are necessary in connection with military life, of various kinds, such as guards, pickets, etc., in connection with the camps. Then, a " D " man is one who is considered within the course of a few months, I think it is six months, to be fit for one of the other classifications. The remaining class is the " E " man, who is a man ready for discharge, and who when his documents are completed will be sent back to Canada. 28277—23 [Lieut.-Colonel C. S. Maclnnis.] 354 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Can you tell us approximately how many there are in this classification ?— A. No, I could not tell you that. It would be possible, I think, to give you the last figures which we have from England, which, as a matter of fact, I brought with me when I came back at the beginning of February, but I have not got them with me. By Mr. Pardee: Q. As to the "E" men you spoke of, you have not got the figures?— A. I could not tell you the details as to the "E" men. They are collected there to go back to Canada for discharge. Q. You do not know how many have come back? — A. No. I think to December the number of returned soldiers discharged was something like 10,000, if I remember rightly. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. You can give us the figures with regard to the five classes, can you? — A. Yes, up to the last data we have in the department. By the Chairman: Q. And you will please have an exhibit prepared with these figures?— A. Yes. Q. Now, Colonel, with respect to your men in Canada, do you have a similar classification? — A. A classification of those now in Canada? Q. Yes. — A. No, because that would hardly be necessary. All men who are enlisted who are in Canada, generally, are men who are supposed to be, and ought to be, fit for all pui-poses overseas. Q. As a matter of fact they are not? — A. There are some who are not, of course. In addition to this in Canada you must remember there are men who would come within the classification of " B " men, namely, men '"who have been enlisted for Forestry, Railway Construction and Labour Battalions. In all of these units there would be a large number who would not come up to the "A" standard. Then in addition to those there are the men as to whom I understand there has been some discussion, namely about IjYOO men belonging to Special Service Companies, of whom a certain propor- tion are not up to '^A" standard. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Are those men you spoke of as being in Special Service Companies, all higher class men than the "D" class men in England, the latter class comprising those who will likely be grouped in a higher class after six months ? — A. I would say they were equally high, and on the instructions we have issued in Canada, both administrative and medical instructions, they should be as high as the '' D " men. You see, the men in Canada, are classified in a different way. They are not at present mider the letters "A", "B", "C", "D" and "E"; they are in different classes by reason of the work for which they have been enlisted. Q. Your first classification are your combatant battalions? — A. Quite so, and the artillery, engineers, and so forth. Q. The battalions that are expected to go to work at the front ? — A. Qniite so. Q. Then your second classifications are your Forestrj' and Construction Bat- talions? — A. And our Labour and Pioneer Battalions. Q. Do I understand that the British authorities have particularly asked that we should send over these Forestry and Construction Battalions? — A. Absolutely so. On all occasions they have sent over a special request. Q. Wovdd it be safe to say that the Imperial authorities have been more urgent in the request for Forestry and Eailway Battalions lately than for infantry? — A. That would be quite true. [Lieut.-Colonel C, S. Maclnnls.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 355 By the Chairman: Q. Can you say from memory what percentage of men who have been dropped from combatant regiments, have been absorbed in Forestry and Construction Battalions? — A. No. Those figures are not available. Those figures are not available and it would be impossible to get them, as you can readily see. If a man is dropped out of one battalion and joins another — Q. There is no continuity in his history?— A. There could not be. There is no record of him alphabetically and he is not recol-ded under his name. It would not be possible to do that. By Brigadier-G eneral Mason : Q. Is your classification in England applied to all arms of the service, or is it con- fined mostly to infantry? — A. Mostly to infantry, but my recollection is that it applied to all arms of the service. By the Chairman: Q. Inasmuch as the Government is called upon to provide, by way of pensions, hospital treatment and other things for a man who is discharged in Canada, as medically unfit, just the same as for a man who has been at the front, and come back, is it not a fact that a very large number of men who have been found to be medically unfit in C^anadian reports, constitute a very hea^^ cost on the Government, both present and future? — A. That may be so, and I would say, obviously so. From what one hears, I think that our experience here has not been different to that of England, or other countries, under a voluntary system. For that reason what you have to deal with is not a question merely of administration, but of human nature, so to speak. A man is nnxious to enlist and he goes forward, being unaware of his medical condition, that is to say, in the case of those men where the defect or disability is not obvious. He then goes before an organization of various officers, who are anxious to have his services, who naturally admire the spirit in which he comes forward, and who perhaps, as to certain defects, were not at the beginning as critical as they would be in the case of an ordinary business transaction. Then in addition to that, a very large proportion of those who have been discharged, is for under age and over age, both of which are points that are difficult for medical officers to express an absolute opinion upon. Q. Are not the directions explicit as to the ages at which men can be enlisted? — A. Quite so. But that does not prevent the human nature element to which I referred a moment ago, from giving the answer one man did whom I heard say to the Duke of Connaught. that he had two ages, one traditionary and the other expeditionary. By Brigadier-General Mason : Q. Was that man an Irishman? — A. Tie may have been. By the Chairman: Q. Are the medical regulations and their obligations more strict to-day than they were say a year ago in dealing with recruits? — A. Undoubtedly there is more machinery for the purpose of preventing men getting overseas who do not come up to the overseas standard by way of check and counter-check. By Brigadier-General Mason : Q. Would you say now that we are getting the "A" standard? — A. Those are the instructions and it is ordered and intended that they shall be observed absolutely, with the exception of the Forestry Battalions. By the Chairman : Q. Were these regulations stiffened because of the desire of the overseas authorities with their experience in England? — A. iSTo. They had been stiffened and were being stiffened regardless of what we heard from England, because it was being noticed by the 28277— 2;3J [Lieut. -Colonel C. S. Maclnnes.] 356 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS medical and administrative authorities that large numbers of men were being dis- charged in Canada after having been enlisted for some time. That of course, arose, as you are aware, to a large extent from men being enlisted in small places before they came to their own battalion. These would be a further check as soon as they got to their own battalion, and then subsequently there was an additional check when they went overseas. The additional regulations established enabled medical boards to go to these smaller places where men were being collected and provided also not merely an ordinary medical examination before proceeding overseas, but an examination by Medical Boards of two or three Medical Officers exclusive of the Medical Officers of the battalion, and also the exacting of certificates both by the Medical Officer and' the Commanding Officer that the regulations had been complied with. By the Chairman: Q. What are the medical examinations that are necessary today before a recruit can be given his uniform and his equipment? — A. I could get that information for you. Those regulations were issued from the Medical Branch with the approval of the Adjutant General. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. I would like to know how many men have been recruited in the Forestry and Labour Battalions, or rather, how many men of all ranks in all the Corps throughout Canada have been enlisted? — A. About 400,000. Q. And how many have been enlisted in these Forestry Battalions ? The Forestry and Constructions Battalions and so forth? — A, I should think they must be now in the neighbourhood of 20,000. In other words, 400,000 men have been enlisted, 300,000 have gone overseas, and there are approximately 40 or 50,000 men in Canada. By Brigadier- General Mason: Q. Of the men of Class " E," did you say that 10,000 had been returned to Can- ada in December or up to December? — A. Up to December, but that was a total which included all returned soldiers. Q. How many of them were originally unfit? — A. I could not say, but not a very large proportion, because all men who were fit for military work of some kind were used. By the Chairman: Q. So that the total percentage of waste material sent to England that could not be utilized at all is not represented by the figures 10,000? — A. The 10,000 include all the returned invalid soldiers who have been wounded more or less seriously. There would not be, out of that number, I should say more than 1,000. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Are there many in England who have not been returned? — A. Not many over there now that are not returned. Q. How many of them are there? — A. As I recollect -it, I think it is in the hun- dreds; I think a return I have will show it. By the Chairman: Q. When you speak of Class "E" in England, the residue cannot be absorbed in any useful work? — A. There is my difficulty. Class "E" includes men who have come back from France, who have been wounded or in the hospitals and convalescent homes, but they are not separated. They are all men who are of no further military value and are eventually sent back here, not by reason of original sin, but by reason of military work. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Not more than 1,000 wiho come back will be men who are not useful for any thing, out of 290,000 that have gone over ? — A. Yes, exactly. [Lieut.-Colonel C. S. Maclnnes.] RECEPTION, TREATMEyr AND RE-EDVCATIOX 357 Q. One in 290?— A. One in 290. There again, one must, perhaps, consider this point. There were recently, I understand, some men sent back from England as being too young; formerly they were sent back, but that is not being done now, because all these men were found valuable and useful in England. By the Chairman: Q. How many returned incapacitated men have been fully cured and re-enlisted here in Canada? — A. Of those who have come back? Q. Yes?— A. I can tell you that. Of those who have come back, approximately 1,000 have been transferred, enlisted in Special Service Companies, or have been trans- ferred or re-enlisted in other units. Q. How many? — A. 994, exclusive of Military District jSTo. 10, which is the Prov- ince of Manitoba, so that the total number will be something over 1,000. That would indicate that my estimate of 1,000 out of 10,000 is probably too low, because I would estimate some of these men who have been fit enough to re-enlist in other units may have been used. No, I do not know that one should increase that 1 ,000 very much. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Do I understand that all the rejected men whom you have found were useful, that is of those that went overseas? — A. No, I cannot say that; as I understand it, I am subject to correction, there have been about 10,000 that have been sent back from England to Canada, for all causes. Separating the number of wounded that have come back, so far as I know it, I should not think there have been more than a thousand who have been sent who are called misfits. By the Chairman: Q. And of those that are over there, you think most or nearly all of them, of the secondary grade, are being utilized in some useful way? — A. Exactly. I do not want to mislead the Committee in any way; there has certainly been sent over from Canada to England far more than 1,000 who are not up to Class "A." But those who have been sent over have been employed in these other categories, but not sent back to Canada; they have been usefully employed. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex): Q. Was the service overloaded simply to keep them there in employment? — A. I do not think so. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Have not a large number of men been sent over to France on railway construc- tion? — A. Certainly. By the Chairman: Q. Will you give us some infonnatiou about the Special Sen'ioe Companies, their origin and the number of them? — A. The origin of the Special Service Companies was this: It was necessary to have men for guard duty and for other military duties in Canada. One way of obtaining such men would be by enlisting them in the Expeditionary Force, or to enlist them in the active militia, and call them out on active service. It was found very difficult to get the number of men required by enlistment in the active militia. Q. Was the difficulty because of the difference in pay between the active militia and the overseas forces? — A. Not entirely that, but partly, and partly by the lack of glamour which surrounds everything connected with the Expeditionary Forces. At the same time it was found that a considerable number of men who had been trained as soldiers, who were in good condition, and upon whom the country had spent con- siderable money both in pay and training, were being discharged for comparatively minor defects, just before their units went overseas. The only thing to do under the [Lieut.-Colonel C. S. Maclnnes.] 358 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RNTVRNED f^OLDIERS existing practice was to discharge these men and then, if these men were requested to do guard duty or something of that kind they either said they would not, or that they would think about it. They had become civilians, and we had no further control over them, although the country had spent money on them for training. Q. Do you mean to say they refused absolutely to enlist? — A. I do not say they refused, but you could not control them; these men had enlisted as soldiers, and they were still soldiers, so that regulations were sent out on July 16 to this effect: — " Members of the C.E.F. of good character, who suffer from minor physical disabilities are not to be discharged, but should be transferred to a junior C.E.F. unit, selected under your command, forming a separate company, which may subsequently be a part of a C.E.F, Special Service Battalion. Such men can be employed by me for military police, for clerical duties, as guards, etc. Detailed medical instructions will shortly be framed, but you may retain any suitable men." Of course, that was followed by a circular on July 25, which referred to that and said: " With furtlier reference to circular lettergTam of 16th iiist., concerning the transfer to a junior C.E.F. Battalion in your command, of men of good character with minor physical disabilities, to be employed on guard duty or as military police, or for clerical or other work, you will now find enclosed copy of instructions concerning medical requirements for men transferred to special companies of such battalions, or who may be enlisted in the same. 2. It is not desired that men should be employed on such special service who are not fully capable of performing the work to which they are allotted and of earning the pay and allowances which they will receive. 3. You are requested to report to Headquarters the designation of the Junior Overseas Battalions to which such men have been allotted, and to report weekly to Headquarters the strength of such Special Service Companies, and the duties on which its members are employed; it being the intention as soon as sufficient men have been obtained and have received sufficient training, to utilize them for all special service work in Canada, thereby releasing all tliose who are physically fit for overseas. 4. It is expected that Special Service Battalions will shortly be authorized, of which the Special Companies above referred to will form part." That has not been done beca^use it was desired to keep down the overhead expenses as much as possible, and, I may say, that has certainly been done, because for 1,748 spe- cial service men in Canada, there are only 21 officers, which is an exceedingly small establishment. By Hon. Mr. Murphy : Q. At what are those 1,700-odd men employed? — A. As military police, guards, fatigues, pickets, orderlies, etc. By^ Hon. Mr. McCurdy : Q. If you have a whole regimental staff of officers, according to your establish- ment, how many officers would be required to look after that number of men? — A. That number of men is practically equal to two battalions, which would require 60 officers, of whom a large number would of course be senior officers, Lieut-colonels and Majors, whereas in this case the establishment is entirely junior officers, on the follow- ing basis: — For each company, one captain and one company Sergeant-Major. For each fifty rank and file, one lieutenant, one sergeant, one corporal, two lance-corporals. So that it would be impossible to have a less expensive military organization. I T.iftut. -Colonel C. S Maclnnaa 1 RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 359 By the Cliairman: Q. These men enlisted, I understand, in the Canadian Expeditionary Force? — A. Yes. Q. And they are still regarded by you as C.E.F. men? — A. Yes. Q. W hat percentage of them are sufficiently restored in health to go into the comba- tant's battalions? — A. I sent out and asked for the information, and I found that 398 of these special service men have already been transferred to other Expeditionary Force Units. That meant that they have gone overseas with regular units, or have joined Forestry or Construction Battalions. Q. Do you encourage them in doing that? — A. Absolutely. Q. I notice that the number you have on the 1st February is larger than the number on the 1st January. — A. Probably. Q. Then the number in the Special Service Companies is increasing? — A. Yes. The number will increase up to the point when requirements are filled. Q. What is the limit of that organization? — A. There is no absolute limit, but the number is continually checked, and the officer commanding the military district is responsible for not employing any more men than is required for the work to be done. Q. Then the number you expect to have in tliese Special Sei-vice Battalions or companies depends upon the totality of the work to be done in these 13 districts? — A. Quite so. Q. Wliat is the maximum you could usefully employ in that way? — A. It is diffi- cult to state that exactly. There are, for instance, on guard duty in Canada at the present time, By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Perhaps if you state how many active militia men there are out on duty that would assist the committee in arriving at a conclusion. — A. There are 9,000 men of the active militia on home service doing guard duty, garrison duty, and other duty, at the present time. From that number you can, of course, take the men who are " A " men, fit for overseas service, and let them go, substituting for them these special sei'vice men. Q. You mean if, for example, there are 9,000 of the active militia, and 2,000 of the special service men, that is 11,000 men altogether. Do you think that number of men is a sufficient force if your requirements continue to increase? — A. What I mean is that of those "9,000 men on guard duty, if there are 3,000 men fit and capable to go overseas, I Avould like to send them and use 3,000 special service men in their place. Q. Are the special ser\'ice men to any considerable extent composed of men who have been overseas and come back? — A. Yes, in those figures, exclusive of four military districts, 127 of the men who came back from overseas have been transferred to special service company. Q. That would not be more than ten per cent? — A. No. Q. Those men having been enlisted for overseas service, and not serving over- seas, you ret-ain them for the special service work, whether they are willing to remain at that particular work or not, but in that respect they differ from the composite battalion? — A. No. Q. Is tlie man in the composite battalion doing home duty retained there indefi- nitely against his will, or is it voluntary service, as far as he is concerned? — A. No. He has enlisted for service during the period of the war and six months there- after. Q. They have no option of discharge? — A. No. But they could not be sent over- seas, whereas all of the men of special service company have enlisted for overseas, and can be sent overseas, and will be sent over just as soon as they are medically fit. [Lieut.-Colonel C. S. Maclnnee.] 360 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. But there is a. considerable portion of them, according to the report given us by the Medical Department, that will never be fit to go over? — A. I have that report which shows that out of 1,7G9, 511 are stated to be unfit. Q. Do you think it is right that a man who has enlisted for overseas service, who is disappointed at finding he cannot go to overseas service, and who is assigned to special service duty, Avhich is, at least, much less romantic and patriotic ? — A. I won't say that. Q. Much less romantic than going overseas. Do you think that man should be retained against his will for services in Canada when he has enlisted in good faith to go overseas? — A. Why not? My answer would be positive. He enlists. His enlist- ment is not limited to going at once into the trenches to throw bombs, but he enlists in the service of the country for military duty, with the additional qualification that that may be for overseas. He is subject to that, and he agrees in his enlistment form that he may be allotted to another service. It may be quite true he would prefer the glamour of a particular class of work to any other work in the war; but if what he is put at is military work, he surely has no ground to say he has been unfairly treated. He has to be retained in Canada, in the first place, to be trained, before he goes over there. When he gets to England he has to be further trained. Q. Here are 511 men who have, in response to the appeal of the recruiting ser- geant to go and fight for their country, been attested, expecting they would go to the front. Now they find they are medically unfit and never can go to the front. You say to them " Your duties hereafter will be about the camps." — A. It will be military duty. Q. Doing the chore work of camps and otherwise. Do you think it is quite fair to that man to compel him, when he finds he cannot go overseas, against his will to do that type of duty ? — A. You are suggesting that a number of these men are complain- ing about that situation. Q. Take a man who has had a good position at $3 or $4 a day, and has a family to support, and expects to go overseas, and is willing to make sacrifices to go overseas, but finds himself in one of these special service companies and is given the sweeping of the oflficers' quarters; he asks to be relieved to go back home and earn his three or four dollars a day and support his wife and children, and you say " No, once you have enlisted you must do the duty assigned to you." Do you think that is fair to the citizen who has enlisted? — A. Your idea is that any soldier who enlisted and got work he did not like might claim his discharge. That is carrying the voluntary system to a degree Q. I am putting myself in his place. If I had felt called upon to lay aside my business, and endure considerable privation in order to enlist, expecting to be sent to France, and I found after I had enlisted I was medically unfit, I think I would feel very badly if I had to act as a private in doing the ordinary home service under those circumstances? — A. I quite agree that you would have that feeling, but that does not lessen the value of the work; it possibly increases it. Q. Is it not unfair to take a valuable man, who, perhaps, in civil life, can make three or four dollars a day, and maintain his family properly, and have him do chore duty in a special service battalion, when he wants to return to his home? — A. Not if by his doing that duty he is, as a matter of fact, releasing somebody else from the work, and enabling that man to fight in the trenches. In England, as you know at the present time they have a system of substitution, pulling out A. men from England and putting in B. men. Those B. men wanted to go to the front, but they are com- pelled to perform the duties of the A. men at home. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Your argument is that it releases the men who are doing this work and who can go to the front? — A. Yes. [Lieut. -Colonel C. S. Maclnnes] RECEPTIOy, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 361 Q. You have a battalion of 1,700 odd, including 21 officers? — A. Yes. Q. Are they really necessary for the service? How many orderlies and officer- servants have you? — A. I have not the list. It certainly was not intended these men should be put there to increase the expenses of the institution. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. How has it worked out? You say it was not intended to increase the expendi- ture? — A. That is the way it worked out. They are not entitled to more men than had been authorized by headquarters for particular duties. They have no right to create additional posts. Q. The amount authorized and established by headquarters might be excessive. Can you give us a statement as to how these men are employed? Can you give us the grades? — A. Military police, cooks, orderlies, etc. Q. Can you let us have that? — A. Yes. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. You say they are doing- duties which able-bodied men would have to do, if these men were not there? — A. Exactly. You are increasing your force at the front in that way. We have endeavoured to cover the situation as well as we can by the regulations. Rule No. 1 reads: — "Xo member of the C.E.F. is to be transferred to a special service company, if he is fit for overseas service. A transfer should be made in any such case to a C.E.F. battalion or other unit. Including forestrj^ and so on. (2) As soon as any member of a special service company becomes fit for overseas service, he should be transferred to a C.E.F. battalion or other unit. The general rules provide that the man must be physically fit for the duty on which it is proposed to employ him, and the report must state any duty on which he should not be employed. He must not be suffering from any disability which is liable to be progressive in character. If he has some disability, it must be of such a char- acter that it will not be aggravated by the work of the branch of the service in which it is proposed to employ him. Then there is a provision as to age and height: and the chest measurement is less, the vision is less, and varicose veins are excepted. Flat feet, of slight or moderate degree, not sufficiently marked to render unfit for office work. The loss of one or two fingers on either hand, excepting thumb or forefinger, pro- vided such loss does not interfere with his ability to do the work at which it is pro- posed to employ him, will not constitute unfitness. This is addressed to the officers of the districts in Canada, and includes authority to use discretion as follows : " 4. When the Ifedical Board shows that the disability is such that the man will not become fit for Overseas Service you are authorized to use your discretion as to whether he should be discharged from, or transferred to (or retained in) the Special Service Company." On the further question of establishment, it is also stated: " 5. The authorized establishment of N.C.O.'s should not be exceeded with- out authority from Headquarters, and should not be applied for except under special circumstances. Any N.C.O.'s beyond establishment should be offered tin- option of transfer, with reduced rank, or of discharge.'' That is if a man comes back a.s a X.C.O., you cannot increase the establislunent. and yet it would lno luifair to compel him to sei've at a lower rank, so he is given the [Lieut.-Colonel C. S. Maclnnes.l 362 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS option of accepting the lower rank or of discharge. So far as the practical operation i.s concerned, I wish you could have had before you to-day. Col. Mewburn, the Assist- ant Adjutant-General of Military District No. 2, because I was asking him how the special service company system worked, and he told me he did not know what they would have done without it. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. It amounts to this : that the duties these men perform must be performed by somebody, and better by those men who can be best spared? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. Would it not really mean that owing to the slackening of recruiting, there is no plethora of men, and the Militia authorities do not like to release any men who can be usefully employed? — A. That is not quite it. Sir Herbert. When this was done in July, we found men who were soldiers, and on whom we had spent money for training, were being discharged, and from whom no value was obtained. Surely it was more desirable to make use of their services than in getting other green men from the active militia. Q. You used these men about the camps? — A. Certainly. Q. For duties for which you did not want to use the ''A" men, otherwise the "A" jnen would have to do their own fatigue ? — A. That is quite a wrong idea. Sir Herbert. No ne-w positions have been created for these men. These men are doing duties which otherwise "A" men would have been doing. The "A" man would not have received the training he ought to receive, and for which the country was paying. Q. Because a certain amount of his time would have been taken up doing these secondary duties? — A. Yes. I would add that at the beginning we did permit (for one month) the direct enlistment into these companies of men not up to standard, in order to get certain men who had been discharged before the regulations came into effect, but it was found that that might be establishing two standards for the C.E.F. So after a month of trial that was abandoned, and was only put into force again in connection with the Welland Canal Field Force when a complaint was received that a number of men on that guard duty in the home service wanted to go overseas, and they could not be released because men could not be got to take the(ir places. We then authorized the direct enlistment of lOO men. There again the value of the system was shown. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. You spoke of the small number of officers in connection with the Special Service. I saw a memorandum this morning which showed that there were about 46,000 troops in Canada at the present time, and in connection with these troops there were about 2,300 officers, that is one officer to about 20 men. Isn't that a terrible waste? — A. No, that is about the usual percentage, 5 per cent. Of course, in some of the units there is a larger number of officers in proportion, the artillery for example. Q. That is about the usual percentage ? — A. Yes, 5 per cent. By the Chairman: Q. There are a good many battalions which have their full quota of 30 officers and only half the number of men has been recruited. — A. That is true, but that con- dition will soon disappear, because all of these men will be going overseas. For instance, in the Field Ambulance Corps j^ou will find 42 officers for 105 men. Some of these small units bring up the average. Witness discharged. [Lieut. -Colonel C. S. Maclnnes.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 363 Mr. K. P. J3ro\vx, Acting Accountant and Paymaster General, Militia Department, called, sworn and examined: — By the Chairman: Q. Mr. Brown, you are the assistant paymaster general of the Militia Department, are you not? — A. No, sir, my appointment is assistant accountant. I am acting accountant and paymaster general. Qi. You are acting in Mr. J. W. Borden's position during his absence? — A. Yes. Q. You are the acting head of the Paymaster's Department? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What we want to get from you, particularly, ^Ir. Brown, are the regulations in connection with returned soldiers in the matter of keeping them on the pay roll. How long are they paid, and wiien does their pay cease? When a man returns home there are three classes as you know, into which he is classified at Quebec. Will you tell us when the pay ceases for class 1? — A. When he is discharged at Quebec he is paid up to the date of discharge which is post dated and given 15 days. Q. Is he given his ticket to his destination? — A. Yes, his ticket to his destination and his meal tickets to his destination. Q. Supposing there is a certain sum of money due him, when is that paid to him ? — A. They pay him usually from ten to twenty dollars at Quebec, and the balance is sent in a cheque to the district paymaster where the man is going. Q. To the Divisional Paymaster? — A. The District Paymaster. Q. Would all cheques for Military District No. 2, for example, be sent to Toronto ? —A. Yes. Q. Where would the cheque of a soldier who returned to Ottawa be sent? — A. To Kingston. Q. Would he have to go down there for it? — A. No, in the case of Ottawa it i* mailed to him from Kingston. Q. Is there only one casualty paymaster for each division ? — A. Yes. Q. What happens with a soldier who, for example, goes to Perth, would he have to go to Kingston to get his pay? — A. It would be sent by the paymaster. Q. To Perth?— A. Yes. Q. Now, many of these soldiers come back with large sums due them? — A. Yes. Q. Sometimes one hundred, two hundred or three hundred dollars? — A. Yes. Q. Would that money be paid in one lump? — A. No, sir. Q. How is it paid? Supposing a man comes back having $150 due hira and receives $10 at the discharge depot, how does he get the balance? — A. The balance is sent on to the casualty paymaster in his district. Q. At Kingston, if the man comes from District No. 3. Does the paymaster send the whole sum to the man in one cheque or in instalments ? — A. lie sends it all in one cheque. Q. So that after the man gets home, he gets complete payment of all that is due him? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you any idea what the average sum is that a returned soldier gets in Class 1, when paid off in Canada?^— A. I suppose it would be about $150. Q. That is practically the average for a discharged soldier who is discharged almost immediately on his arrival at Quebec? — A. That is my idea of it. Q. I judge so, because we have chequed a good many of them in connection with the Patriotic I'und. JSow, take Class 3— we will omit Class 2 for the moment— the man immediately entitled to a pension. How long do you continue to pay him? — A. Until the Pension Board notify us that their first pension cheque is ready. Q. There is no hiatus then? — A. No, sir. Q. Is that a new arrangement? — A. It has just come into force. Q. Because of complaints? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How about his wife, does she get her separation allowance? In the case of a married man. whose wife has been accustomed to receiving separation allowances of [Mr. R. P. Brown] 364 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS $20 a month, and whose hushand has assigned her $15 a month, when he comes home and his pension has not yet been determined, and while he is waiting for his pension, how long do the separation allowance and assigned pay continue? — A. IJp to the time he gets his first pension cheque. Q. That is also a new arrangement, is it not? — A. Yes, sir. At the beginning of the war there was a period of 15 days allowed for the granting of the pension during which the man received pay and allowances; that was found to be too short, so it was extended to 30 days; and now it is extended until the time we get notification from the Pensions Board, that they are ready to issue the first pension cheque. Q. That is, you found that a fixed date was likely to leave gaps ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And now the Government pays separation allowance and assigned pay after the man has come home physically unfit from the time he arrives xintil his first pension cheque goes out? — A. Yes, sir. Q. There is no hiatus? — A. No, sir. Q. K"ow take Class 2, the men whom you might call undetermined, so far as their physical condition is concerned. Brigadier-Gen. Mason: Before we leave Class 3, what about the case of the unmarried man.? The Chairmak : In that case there is no separation allowance, unless he has a widowed mother. By the Chairman: Q. Now, in the case of the undetermined pension, where a Class 2 man has returned either convalescent or an active treatment case, he lands at Quebec and is sent to a hospital. What pay does he get, and what allowances does his wife get while he is in hospital? — A. Just the same as he has been receiving all along. Q. Just as on active service ? — A. Yes. Q. When he becomes convalescent how long does his pay continue? — A. Just the same. Q. Supposing he becomes an out patient? — A. In that case, he gets 60 cents a day subsistence allowance. Q. And his wife received $20 separation aUowance just the same? — A. Yes. Q. He will get his full pay of $33, his wife will receive $20 separation allowance and in addition he will have 60 cents a day for boarding himself ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Making a total of $71, if I am right, for an "out" patient? — A. Yes. Q. While the "in" patient gets his keep in the hospital, his full pay of $33 per month and $20 for his wife? — Yes, that is right. Q. That is for case No. 2. Now, suppose there is a chronic case, where a man is in the hospital for six, eight, ten or twelve months, what happens there, does the man's pay go on all the time? — ^A. Yes. Q. His pay goes on no matter how long he is in the hospital? — A. Yes, it goes on until the man is discharged for pension. Q. Now take the case of a man who is discharged. After he has been discharged two or three weeks he endeavours to work and breaks down, then goes before a Medical Board, is re-examined and re-attested and returns to hospital again. What do you say about the pay and allowance of that man ? — A. We start his pay from the date he is re-attested. Q. From the date he is re-attested? — A. Yes. Q. Do you not make it retroactive to cover the three or four weeks he was out? — A. No. He would be getting a pension during that time. Q. Suppose he was getting no pension, but was in the class that received a gratuity on discharge. He goes out and tries to work, and after two or three weeks he breaks down, goes before a Medical Board and is re-examined and re-admitted to the hospital. Do you pay that man any wages for the period he was out? — A. No, sir. LMr. R. p. Brown.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 365 Q. His pay commences again with his re-attestation? — A. Yes. Q. Suppose you have a case where the Hospitals Commission decides the man must be re-educated. Does ho go back to pay and allowances? Take the case of a man whose right hand is cut off and who has to be taught a new trade. Does he get pay while he is being re-educated? — A. He gets his pay as long as he is in the hospital,' and is not discharged. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. He is never off the pay-list? — A. No. By the Chairman: Q. If the man is supposed to be physically fit but his re-education is in process, does he get pay and allowance? — A. Yes, sir, until discharged. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. His Separation Allowance is paid while he is undergoing vocational training until his final discharge? — A. Yes, sir, until he is either discharged into civil life or to pension, the pay is just the same. Q. Can you tell me what you are paying out in Separation Allowances today? — A. Yes, I can give you the figures for Separation Allowances and for assigned pay. Q. Give the expenditure under the head of Separation Allowance first? — A. The payments on account of Separation Allowances for the month of January were $1,767,000. By the Chairman : Q. Paid to how many people?— A. About 80,000. Q. Then you pay 80,000 Separation Allowances? — A. Yes, sir. Q. In Canada and in England? — A. No, that is in Canada alone. Q. Can you tell us how many Separation Allowances have been paid in England? — A. Separation Allowances have been paid to about 12,000 families in England. Q. That makes about 92,000 Separation Allowances all told ?— A. Yes, Sir. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. What is the total amount?— A. About $2,050,000 a month. Q. Now give us the assigned pay? — A. For January that amounted to. $2,791,000. By the Chairman: Q. How many assignments does that represent? — A. About 160,000. Q. Out of 300,000 men who have gone over? — A. Yes, sir, about that. Q. A little over 50 per cent of the men assigned their pay? — A. It is nearly 60 per cent. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Have you the payment of pensions for the month of January? — A. No, sir, I have not. By Mr. Ross (Middlessex) : Q. Could you tell me the amount of Separation Allowances paid to dependents of olficers in Canada, and in Great Britain, respectively, and the same to dependents of privates and non-commissioned officers? — A. I could not give you that information off-hand, but I can get the figures for you. Q. I would like to get those figures. I want the pay and separation allowances paid to officers wives in Canada and in England and the same information in regard to wives of non-commissioned officers and privates? — A. I think I can get that infor- mation for you. [Mr. R. P. Brown. 1 366 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS SEPARATION ALLOWANCE. JAN. 1917. Accounts payable in Canada. . .1 11 in England . §80,000 . 12,000 $92,000 .'§1,767,000 250,000 Approx. .$2,017,000 SUB-DIVIDED. In Cf Number. mada. Amount. In England. Number. Amount. Officer's Accounts— Lieuts Capts Majors Lt.-Cols 2,063 2,021 784 273 $ 61,890 80,840 39,200 16,380 488 456 192 74 8 14,610 18,240 9,600 4,440 N. C. Os. andMen .5,141 78,3!>8 198,310 1,568,690 1,767,000 1,210 10,790 12,000 46,920 215,800 83,469 202,720 By the Chairman : Q. You have in your hands a number of papers which undoubtedly you brought in the expectation of some questions being asked you. Let us ^know what the docu- ments are, in order that we way determine if there is anything which should go on the record. Have you any papers there which we have not asked for? — A. I have the rates of pay and allowances. I will file a statement dealing with that. LMr. R. P. Brown.] RECEPTION', TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION PAY AND ALLOWANCES. 367 CANADIAN EXPEDITIONARY FORCES. The following are the regimental rates of Pay and Allowances. Subsistence Allowance will not be drawn when men are in Camp, or in Govern- ment quarters and in receipt of rations. Lieut. -Colonel Major Captain Lieutenant Warrant Officer Q. M. Sergt Orderly Room Clerk Pay Sergts Sqd., Bty. or Co. Sorgt.-Major Col. Sgc. or Staff Sergt Sqd., lity. or Co. Q. M. Sgt Sergeants Corporals Bonibdrs. or 2nd Corpls , Tininpeters, Buglers and Drummeis . . Privates, (Junners and Drivers Sappers, Batmen, Cooks, etc Regimental Pay per day. •S cts. 5 00 4 00 3 00 2 00 2 00 1 80 1 50 1 r>0 1 60 1 60 1 50 1 35 1 10 1 05 1 00 1 00 1 00 Field Pay per day. S cts. Separation Allowance per month. § cts. 60 00 oO 00 40 00 .SO (0 ;^,o 00 25 00 25 00 25 00 25 00 25 00 25 00 25 OJ 20 00 20 00 20 00 20 00 20 00 Subsistence Allowance in Canada [)er day. 1 50 1 50 1 50 1 50 60 60 (M) 60 60 60 60 SEPARATION ALLOWANCE. Separation Allowance is issued at the discretion of Privy Council. Its object is to provide for the maintenance of the family or dei)endent of a soldier when he is separated from them on Overseas Service and is payable from the date a man enlists. The governing principle in both British and Canadian regulations is that Separ- ation Allowance cannot be paid in respect of the same soldier to more than one house- hold at the same time. ASSIGNED P.\Y. Non-Commissioned Officers and Men, in order to draw Separation Allowance must assign not less than half their pay but are not permitted to assign more than twenty days' pay. The minimum in the- case of a Private would be $15, the maximum $20. RATES OF SEPARATION ALLOWANCE. Rank and file ^ $20 per month. Sergeants and staff sergeants 25 Warrant officers 30 Lieutenants 30 Captains 40 Majors 50 " Colonels or lleut. -colonels 60 Present Regulations for one or more motherless children authorize the above rates. [Mr. R. P. Brown.] 368 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS ■Classes of persons entitled to draw Separation Allowance. Wives and Children. (1) Lawful wife at time of enlistment. (2) Wife married since enlistment with Commanding Officer's consent. (3) Wife separated by Court, provided Court decrees Husband must con- tribute to support. (4) Wife separated less than two years without Court decree. (5) Woman supported by soldier on a permanent bona fide domestic basis two years prior to enlistment. Motlierless Children. (1) Legitimate children. (May be paid to Guardian named by soldier.) (2) Children of a household as in Class A (5) as above. Widows. Widows entirely dependent where the son has enlisted and is their sole support. Special General Provision. In the event of individual cases arising which do not appear to come within the Ijresent regulations, or any cases not already provided for, such cases will be specially considered by the Governor in Council. INVALIDED SOLDIERS. All invalided soldiers will receive pay and allowances until discharged from Cana- dian Expeditionary Force; but no invalided soldier will be discharged until a Board of Medical Officers certify that further treatment or hospital care will not improve his condition. If not medically fit he is recommended for a pension, according to his disability. If a soldier who has been discharged and awarded a pension and who subsequently requires treatment and is so recommended by a Board of Medical Officers who certify such disability was caused or aggravated by service the Board of Officers may recom- mend his reattestation as a member of the Canadian Expeditionary Force. If such leeommendation is acted upon he is placed on pay and allowances from date of reattes- tation and his pension, if any, cancelled from such date. When a pensioner has been reatttested he will be regarded as a new case in so far as discharge and pension are concerned and the usual procedure followed. Q. What else have you which may be of value for our record? — A. These (referring to memoranda) are mostly notes I made. Q. In anticipation of questions which might be asked you — A. Yes, sir. Q. Possibly we will ask you those questions if we know the nature of the memoranda. — A. There is one thing further I would like to say, and that is in regard to the position of the soldier on his return from the war. A rule was made taking effect from 1st January, 1916, that deferred pay would be held up to the extent of 50 per cent of their pay in the case of single men with no assignments overseas, and 50 per cent, less the assignments, in the case of others. That would mean in the case' of a private, that if he had served a year overseas he would have about $200 in his pocket when he arrived home. Q. Does the soldier get any interest on deferred pay? — A. No, sir. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. You mean by that, every soldier on his return will have enough money in his possession to tide him over until he is provided for? — A. All the men will, who have not made assignments. [Mr. R. P. Brown.] RECEPTIO}^, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 369 By the Chairman: Q. The married men will have very little because their assignment is $15 out of $33. — A. A few men are assigning small amounts to other than dependents. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. How many letters are coming to the Department each day ? — A. In the Assigned Pay and Separation Allowance Branch lately the number has averaged about 900 a day. By the Chairman: Q. Do you try to have thejii all answered within 24 hours? — A. We do, but we do not always succeed. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Do you know anything about the correspondence of the Records Branch? — A. I do not know what the extent of that would be. Q. Is it as heavy as in the Assigned Pay and Separation Allowance Branch ? — A. No, not as heavy, I believe. By the Chairman: Q. How many have you on your staff now? — A. About 800. Of course there is much other business besides correspondence to deal with. Q. Have you anything further that you think would be of value to place on our records? — A. There is the question of extra duty pay for men who went over at the beginning of the war. A great many men were enlisted with the understanding that they would get special pay. Q. These men all came home? — A. Yes. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Can you give any idea what the responsibility of Canada amounts to to the men on account of the pay that has been retained? You keep back a certain amount of the pay. Can you give us an idea what the whole amount of the pay that has been kept back is? — A. Yes, on the 30th September, that is the latest returns we have from overseas, the deferred pay amounted to $16,000,000. Q. That would be largely increased now I suppose? — A. Yes, it is probably $25,- 000,000 today. Q. When an officer comes back here, wounded, and is on leave, and his leave is extended, does his pay go on just the same? — A. Yes. Q. Although he is not in a Convalescent Home at all, but is just here on leave, he gets full pay just the same? — A. Yes. Q. Does he get subsistence? — A. Yes, he gets subsistence allowance. Q. His wife gets the separation allowance, just the same? — A. Yes. Q. Does the separation allowance end immediately if the man is discharged? — A. In the case of a depend>.nt, do you mean? Q. In the case of a married man who is discharged? — A. If we know about it, yes. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. I had a lady come to my office, before I left, who said that her husband was discharged last September, and she was still receiving her separation allowance. She wanted to know if it was right for her to take it. — A. There are a great many of those cases, and the office at Headquarters here gets blamed for them, although we are not entitled to the blame. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. In cases of over-payment, do you ever have refunds ? — A. Oh. yes, we have a staff recovering that money right a*long. 28277—21 [Mr. R. P. Brown.] 370 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F. —RETURN ED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. And sometimes after having sent poor women cheques for $20 or $30, and after they have spent the money, then you want it back again. — A. Sometimes they do not use very good judgment. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. In a case of that kind, is it the fault of the officers not reporting that the man has been discharged? — A. Yes. A man in Canada may be discharged or may desert, and the officer, whose duty it is to notify us, will not do so and it goes on for months ; we quite frequently hear of those things through private parties, and, as soon as we do hear of them we stop the allowance. Q. Is it the fault of the local paymaster? — A. No, it is the fault of the officer commanding the Battalion, in a great many cases. Witness discharged. Dr. Adam Siiortt^ Civil Service Commissioner, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. You are Chairman of the Civil Service Commission? — A, No, sir, that is a popular mistake, there are only two Commissioners, and there is no Chairman as yet, although provision has been made for a Chairman. Q. Then your title is? — A. Simply: Civil Service Commissioner. Q. The policy of the Government, if we can judge from the declaration of some of the Ministers has been to give preference in the Civil Service to returned soldiers ? —A. Yes. Q. Have you a copy of the Order in Council to that effect? — A. Yes. Q. "Will you kindly file that? — A. There are several Orders in Council here. Q. Orders that relate to that subject? — A. Yes. The Chairman : They will all be filed on the record. Witness : Starting with the Order of the 27th November, 1915 (P. C. 2758) : " The Committee of the Privy Council, on the recommendation of the Eight Honourable the Prime Minister advise that in making appointments to the Government Civil Service, preference be given to the returned members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force, especially those who through disability occa- sioned by active military service are unable to fill their previous occupations; such appointments to be subject to the provisions of the Civil Service Act, and to be made with due regard to the capacity of any applicant to discharge the duties of the position to which it is proposed to appoint him." By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. That is the first Order in Council ? — A. The first Order in Council, dated 27th November, 1915. Q. What is the next Order?— A. The next Order is that of the 12th October, 191C. Q. AVhat is the substance of it? — A. Making absolute restrictions on the appoinc- ment of persons of military age who are able to pass the medical test. By the Chairman: Q. As I understand it, at the present time no person can be appointed to the Civil Service who is fit and who is of militarj'^ age? — A. Who is of military age and who has not presented himself for enlistment. Q. Who cannot show his certificate that he has presented himself ? — A. That is, he may or he may not be unfit, but who has not yet presented himself. If he has pre- sented himself and has been declared unfit, we ask for a certificate from the regular fDr. Adam Shortt.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 371 authority, and if he cannot produce that, we ignore him. It comes down to this, that the only persona eligible to enter the Service in tjhe reg-ular way at the present time are those below the military age, and that age has been reduced by this Order in Council from 18, which was formerly the minimum, to 16, and those over the military age. Formerly they could not be admitted above the age of 35. now they can be taken in to aai indefinite age, which is dependent upon the judgment of those who issue these certificates, or who suggest them for emiployment. Q. That discretion is permitted by this Order in Council? — A. Yes. Q. To whom is that discretion given? — A. Jointly, to the Commissioners and the Departmental Heads, each within their respective jurisdictions. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Under that Kegulation, can a man be taken into the Civil Service at any age? A. No, it leaves it to the discretion — Q. But if the discretion is alright, he can be taken in at 70? — A. Yes, but usually, unless there are special circumstances, not over sixty. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Whet is meant by the term "Civil Service?" — A. The regular Civil Service is composed c "^ the organized Service under the Civil Service Act, which alone is called the " Civil Ser>ice," but outside of that there is a large staff of public employees in all kinds of positions. Q. Such as the Customs and Post Office? — A. There are the Inside and the Out- side Services; the Inside Service comes under the provisions of the Act of 1908, and its amendments, the Outside Service is under the old Act. Q. Then this Order in Council does not apply to the Outside Service? — A. Yes, to all the regular organized Service. It is a question how far it applies to the mis- cellaneous Service, that is people employed as snowshovellers, and those in the Militia Department paid out of the War vote; none of these are in the Civil Service, and it is a question as to whether that regulation is compulsoiy with regard to them. By the Chairman: Q. How about those people that are on for short periods? I understand that persons can be employed for six months without a Civil Service Commission Certifi- cate. When that period is up, what happens? — A. This limit has been abolished until the end of the war. That is also a feature of this Order in Council, that any one taken on temporarily can be continued until the end of the war. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q, In any department? — A. In any department, inside or outside. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. But they must be of non-military age? — A. Yes, or women. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Is there any other feature of that Order in Council you want to refer to, creating any further change? — A. No, except this question of badges that " during the continuance of the present war, no male person of military age shall be appointed to the Civil SerA'ice, whetJier in the inside, or on the outside, service, unless a badge has been issued to him under the provisions of the Order in Council of the 16th August, 1916." That is another Order in Council. Q. Have you any other Order in Council? — A. Yes. These Orders in Council require that those appointed in the inside service should conform to the qualifications required for the candidates entering the inside service. 2S277— 24i [Dr. Adam Shortt.J 372 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETVRy ED SOLDIERS Q. You are speaking of the two orders already referred to? — A. Yes. But it was found that sometimes we could not issue certificates to returned soldiers for various reasons, partly because of questions arising out of that elementary test that they were given, and partly by reason of habits, character, etc. We had an arrangement from the start that the preference would be given to the returned soldiers, or to those who could not serve overseas, on condition that they had the minimum qualification; they were not treated in a competitive way, and in our lists at the present time what we do is we go through those lists and take out, first, all the returned soldiers who have qualified and who are suitable; next, take out those who have military badges. Next, take out the women, and then, finally, any other men who come imder those restrictions. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. These are regulations made by the Civil Service Commissioners themselves? — A* Yes. Q. Apart from the practice? — A. Yes. Q. Apart from Orders in Council? — A. Yes. We were following that line, and then we came to have the special authority for it in these Orders in Council. Now, in order to get at the men who could be properly qualified, we made arrangements for examinations. I visited all those institutions that were then in operation for training vmder the Military Hospitals Commission, and made arrangements for the examining of those people at those centres all up and down Canada. We held the first examina- tion in September, 1916. We got nine people out of some twelve or fourteen at Cal- gary. I have a list here of the examinations held in the end of December, where we got forty at different centres in Canada. We have another examination coming on the Gth of this month. By the Chairman: Q. These are all returned soldiers? — A. Yes. We hold these at different centres, and the list, of course, is extending. We will probably have, perhaps, fifty, sixty, or seventy; we are not sure how many will pass, but a large number. We utilize these lists in two ways. Our Commission has no control over the appointments in the out- side service, and, therefore, all we can do as regards the outside service is to send these lists, with the names of the persons and the places at which they have taken their examination. We get at each centre, from the Hospital Commission, the disa- bility under which each one of these patients is laboiiring; so that, when the depart- ment is selecting a person they will know whether he has an arm off, or which arm it is, or whether he is suffering from shell shock, or what he is suffering from, and what he might be addicted to. We send those lists to all the deputy ministers for their information, and from these they should, in accordance with the Orders in Council, select those qualified persons up and down the country. As regards the appointments here in Ottawa, we select them off those lists. It was because some of those were rejected that this Order in Council was passed, which enabled those men — By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Rejected by whom? — A. By the tests we applied in the Civil Service. By the Chairman: Q. They fell down in their examination? — A. Yes, or could not furnish a clean record as to their habits, inclined to drink, and one thing and another. This was By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. What date is that?— A. This is the first day of January, 1917, and reads as follows : — " His Excellency the Governor General in Council, under and in virtue of the provisions of section 6 of the War Measures Act, 1914, is pleased to order [Dr. Adam Shortt.] I RECEPTION, TREATMENT AXD RE-EDUCATION 373 that section 22 of the Civil Service Amendment Act, 1908, as amended by chapter 8 of the Statutes of 1910, relating to the appointment to the position of messengers, porters, sorters and packers, and to certain other position^ shall be and the same is hereby amended by adding thereto the following sub-section : (3). Any person who has been on active service overseas in the Military or Naval forces of His Majesty during the present war may be appointed either temporarily or permanently to any of the said positions upon his satisfying the Deputy head of the Department in which he is to be appointed that he can read and write and also that he has the usual qualifications required with respect to character and health." That removes the restrictions. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Does that apply to a letter-carrier? — A. No, he is not in the Civil Service. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. What is the result of the change? — A. A man who is rejected, or who would have been rejected by our test under our examination, may still be appointed. By the Chairman: Q. To a restricted number of positions? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. And may be appointed permanently ? — A. Yes. Q. In other words, these appointments may be made outside the Civil Service Commissioners altogether? — A. Yes. Q. By the deputy head? — A. Well, by the head who orders the deputy head to take action. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. It does not include a person who has been discharged as medically unfit? — A. No. Q. lie is not eligible? — A. No. The effect of the Order in Council is this: that anyone who has sufficient influence to get the appointment will get it, and exclude the appointment of those who have gone up throug^h the Military' Hospitals Commis- sion and taken their tests and are ready to be appointed. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. At the hands of the Civil Service Commission? — A. Yes. Q. Who have passed an examination? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. But there is a limited number of employments for which those semi-unfit men are eligible? — A. That makes the condition all the more serious for those who have taken the regular course and have qualified. Q. Those that have qualified have open to them a good many more positions? — A. If they have taken the qualifying examination, or the second division examination, or that for any other division, but this is the lower grade, and that lower grade applied in the outside service to railway mail clerks and postal clerks, and therefore to a large number of positions in the outside service. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. Many thousand? — A. No. The postal service is divided into two classes, organized and unorganized. This applies only to the organized service. [Dr. Adam Shortt] 374 SPECIAL COMMITTI?E—C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. He must be a returned soldier from overseas? — A. Yes. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Would that apply to rural mail carriers? — A. I presume not. By the Chairman: Q. What is being done by the Military Hospitals Commission, under your co-operation, is to fit every man for the service who is at present unfit? — A. The principle is this: As you have already indicated, there is a very limited number, and always must be a very limited number, of Government positions open to returned soldiers. We, of course, expect there will be many more returned soldiers fully qualified for those positions than can obtain them, and therefore we expect the returned soldiers will be their own competitors when they return in sufficient numbers. Q. It would look as though all future appointments practically would be taken by returned soldiers? — Yes, up to very high grades. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. We will become militarized, as they were in Germany? — A. Well, in a sense, but we go on the assumption that these men will return to civil life. There are many engineers, chemists and scientific men of all grades in the troops, who are receiving at the front a magnificent training in practical work, in engineering of everj* descrip- tion and in administrative work. We expect these men will be able to fill these positions when they return, that they will be strong competitors, and that preference should be given to them. That is the expectation we are proceeding on. It does seem to us that in the meantime these positions should be filled only temporarily, whether by returned soldiers or otherwise, and the abolishing of the six months' limitation makes that possible. Such men as are available, preferably returned soldiers, if there are any, for the higher grades, may be put in these positions. Most of them have been filled by men who have been unable to go overseas on account of their inability to stand the medical test. Let them be put in temporarily, and when these men get back from the front after the war is over, let the positions be thrown open to competition, and we shall be able, on that basis, to select from the returned soldiers, without favour, and with everybody having the same chance, the best men for the positions. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. What you have just said is your ddea as to the way this ought to work out? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. What are your views with regard to extending that suggestion to men in the Civil Service who are physically fit and qualified for overseas service and now holding permanent positions? — A. We have given every encouragement to those who will enlist and put every obstacle in the way of their getting anything unless they go overseas. What we did in the case of our regular lists after the war broke out was this: To every man on that list under the competitions which were then permitted, and, indeed, required by law, we said : Have you tried to enlist ? If the answer was no, we replied : All right, don't you think you should ? The man would say : Well, what does that mean for me ? We told him : It means that we will keep your position for you, in other words keep you on the list and when you come back you will not have to pass another exam- ination. The law authorizes this, because the law says that these men shall be retain- ed on the list until we find positions for them. When they return from overseas, they siimply present themselves and ask for their appointment, and that appointment will be given in due order. In comparison with those who have not taken any examination they will get the preference over all others. [Dr. Adam Shortt.] RECEPTION', TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 375 By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Are you speaking now of men at present in the Civil Service? — A. Well, partly. By the Chairman : Q. You are speaking of the waiting list? — A. Take a man in the third division of the Service, he goes up and becomes 'a successful candidate for the second division, but we do not count the fact of his being in the third division as giving him any claim at all to exemptions from the Orders in Council, and he will not go up through our Commission to the higher grade. Q. Unless he tries to enlist? — A. Yes, and has been turned down. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. If he does enlist he gets the preference when he comes back ? — A. That is right. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Tlie reason I ask the question is because you have suggested yourself, that, when the soldiers come back at the end of the war, those temporarily holding the posi- tions, having been allowed in because physically unfit and therefore necessarily not then able to earn a good living, are to be thrown out and a way made for the soldiers? — A. They will have whatever opportunity anyone has to enter dnto the competition. As Mr. Middlebro has pointed out, we have no control over holding positions in the Service for men who have gone to the front, but we understand that the Government holds these. Q. I am not speaking of those. You have suggested that from now on all vacan- cies be filled temporarily by men who are physically unfit for overseas service? — A. Yes, or returned soldiers. , Q. Yes, certainly returned soldiers first, but for other positions for which suitable returned soldiers cannot be found with men physically unfit for overseas service, and that this latter class shall hold these positions until the end of the war, and that they shall then, physically unfit as they are, be summarily thro\\Ti out and their places taken by returned soldiers. Admit- tedly, you approve of this procedure, then I put this question to you: Is such a course equally feasible with regard to the able-bodied men who have not gone overseas and who, at the end of the war, are holding good positions in the Service? — A. Not if they are holding permanent positions. I should like to correct just one point, that these temporary men shall be indiscriminately thrown out. They will have the same opportunity as all others eligible to compete for those permanent posdtioiTs with the returned soldiers, and they will have the advantage of a certain knowledge and experience gained in the temporary holding of the positions which will be an advantage to them. Q. You would, of course, give the preference to the returned soldiers? — A. Cer- tainly, where there are not other returned soldiers eligible to compete with them. If they are holding these positions merely as civilians they would be thrown out. Q. You propose to throw out then a class of men who are not physically fit to make their way in the world, and retain other physically fit men who have not volunteered, because they are " permanents " ? — A. In any case the former are only temporarily employed, and we are not changing that situation. Q. What difference does that make? The former class cannot earn a good living. I have no personal knowledge, but it is said that at the present time you have in the service men who are able to make their way any where, and who are not going to the front. My question was : Would it be feasible to recruit in the Civil Service many men who are now there by adopting the suggestion which you proposed that the Government should adopt after the war for the temporary men? — A. You mean by throwing them out at the close of the war? There is this serious difference: It is up to the Government and Parliament to say whether they will abolish or fill many positions, and there are many filled norw on a purely temporary basis. Every one ^Dr. Adam Shortt] 376 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS entering on the tompoi'ary basis knows that they enter on a basis which comes to an end normally in six months, or, since the passing of the Order in Council, at the end of the war. They enter on that basis; they know exactly where they are; there is no breaking of faith with them. Whereas those who have been regularly appointed to the permaJicnt Service have entered knowing that the Acts and regulations and the practice and everything else enables them to go through to the end of the chairter. So that there is a serious difference, I think, between the two classes. By the- Chairman: Q. Between the permanent and temporary classes? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. You would not be prepared to carry your suggestion that far? — A. I do not interfere with them. I think, as I say, that those men who can go to war, and where there is no special reason why they should not, should have whatever pressure put on them that is deemed advisable; but in all such cases where they go their positions are held for them, and those who occupy such positions in the meantime know that they are holding them temporarily until these men return. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. You say that their positions are held for them. Do you know that that is the fact? — A. That is the declaration of the Government. Q. In an Order in Council ? — A. No, they have simply never been discharged. By the Chairman: Q. Most of those who are away draw their pay ? — A. They are on leave ,of absence purely. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. You do not know, doctor, that any regulation or Order in Council has been passed expressing in words what you have just said?— ^A. I know this, that unless some special Order in Council or law has been passed putting them out of their positions, they still hold them. Q. That is your reason for saying what you have said? — A. Yes. By the- Chairman: Q. They are absent on leave? — A. They are still members of the Civil Service and their pay is still continued. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Provided they are in certain divisions'? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Was not some change made with regard to the granting of leave to permanent officials of the Civil Service? Tip to a certain date they received their full pay from a department as well as their military pay and allowances, and after a certain time was there not some change made in that connection? — A. Yes. Q. What was that change? — A. That their military pay should be deducted from their civil pay. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. That was the rule at first? — A. No, the rule at first, up to July, 1915, or about that date, they received their pay of their Civil Service position regardless of what they got in a military capacity. After that, they received their military pay and whatever the difference was between that and their Civil Service pay; in other words the mil- itary pay was deducted from the Civil Service pay. Q. Is that the rule now? — A. Yes. [Dr. Adam Shortt.] REX7EPTI0N, TBEATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 377 Q. Are there any other Orders in Council affecting the Civil Senuce Commission witli relation to the war? — A. Some of them have been repealed. By the Chairman: Q. In putting these Orders in Council in for our file, it will not be necessary to put in those that have been repealed. And if the latest ones replace previous orders, put in the latest? — A. The Order in Council of January 1, 1917,.amends section 22 of the Civil Sei-vice Amendment Act, and reads as follows : P.C. 3281. PRIVY COUNCIL, CANADA. At the Goverimient House at Ottawa. Monday the 1st day of January, 1917. PRESENT : His Excellency the Governor General in Council. His Excellency the Governor General in Council, under and by virtue of the pro- visions of section 6 of the War Measures Act, 1914, is pleased to order that section 22 of the Civil Service Amendment Act, 1908, as amended by chapted 8 of the Statutes of 1910, relating to the appointment to the position of messengers, porters, sorters and packers, and to certain other positions, shall be and the same is hereby further amended by adding thereto the following sub-section: 3. Any person who has been on active service overseas in the Military or Naval forces of His Majesty during the present war may be appointed either temporarily or permanently to any of the said positions upon his satisfying the Deputy head of the Department in which he is to be appointed that he can read and write and also that he has the usual qualifications required with respect to character and health. (Sgd.) RODOLPHE BOUDREAU, Clerh of the Privy Council. There are two significant things I might mention, first, people in Ottawa, it seems to me, should not have a special claim on Government positions as if the Dominion Government's offices in Ottawa were a local industry. We hold our examinations from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and evei*ybody is equally entitled to compete. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. The Johnny on the spot always has the advantage? — A. In a patronage way, always. If there are qualified returned soldiers up and down the country who have taken their examinations, and who have taken the training offered them by the Military Hospitals Commission, and have shown themselves in passing these tests able to hold these positions, why should inferior people be taken when the others are avail- able?- The same applies to this otlicr question of holding them over. Moreover, these tests are very elementary, the lower gTade examinations being simply writing, spelling and the first four rules of arithmetic. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. And reading? — A. No. The spoiling and the arithmetic are such that if they can spell the easy words they c-an pass, and if they can add and subtract they do not need to know how to multiply and divide, because they can get enough marks to qualify. [Dr. Adam Shortt.] 378 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS It is not a s&rioiis test, but it has this remarkable advantage. Lord Macaulay, Sir George Trevelyan, the Marquis of Hartington, afterwards Duke of Devonshire, and other advocates of the Civil Service reform in Britain, pointed out that if a man will undertake to go up for these tests, it is a more valuable test of steadiness of character, of habits, and of general ability than any value of the test itself, and that is what we have found works out here. Q. It is that elementary test that the amendment to Section 22 of the Civil Service Act breaks down? — A. Yes. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. A man who could not do any of these things could be appointed by the head of a department under that section to any of these positions ? — A. Yes, in the lower grade. By the Chairman : Q. If he was a returned overseas soldier? — A. Yes. Q. What are you doing towards qualifying and fitting returned men for Civil Service employment? — A. Well, of course, we have no such function, except to test them when they profess to be ready to be tested. Q. The Military Hospitals Commission are giving training at a number of points, I understand, under your advice? — A. Well, we have talked the matter over with the different centres. What I have said is this : These men come back to you covering all grades and subjects for all kinds of employment; you will find some who show by tlieir character and industry tendencies which will be suitable for Civil Service posi- tions; it should be your function to find Q. Certain selected men? — A. Yes, to go in for these positions, and then there are others who should go in for manual training or some other occupation. Because of your knowledge of these men, you have the opportunity to give suitable advice to them, and to give them the training. Then, when you declare them ready, we provide the machinery for examining them and certifying to the various Departments of the Civil Service that these men are qualified up to the various standards. Q. In a normal year how many people are absorbed in the Civil Service? — A. In the Inside Service, about, prdbably a hundred in the third division; between forty and fifty in the second division, and perhaps about the same number in the other divisions. Q. That is in the Departments at Ottawa? — A. Yes. And in the lower grade probably about one hundred. Q. So that three hundred a year is about the normal absorption in Ottawa? — A. About that. Q. And throughout the country at large, do you deal with the Outside Service? — A. We simply hold the examinations, but we have no knowledge of the number appointed. Q. Are the returned soldiers to have the preference in the Outside Service as well?— A. Yes. Q. I am trying to find out how many returned soldiers could be absorbed annually in both the Inside and Outside Service, how many would you think? — A. In the Inside Service, probably as you say, about 300 of all grades. Q. That is males? — A. No, males and females. Of the three hundred appoint- ments, seventy-five would represent males. Q. Then, 75 to 100 would be the limit of returned soldiers that could be placed annually in the Inside Service? — A. Unless they replaced the women. Q. And in the Outside Service have you any idea how many annual appointments are made? — A. No, we simply hold the examinations. We qualify, as a rule, about one thousand a year. Q. As a means of finding employment for returned soldiers, the Civil Service offers a very limited absorptive power ? — A. Yes. [Dr. Adam Shortt.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 379 By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. That is the Inside Service? — A. And the Outside, too, that is the regular Services only. Q. What distinction do you draw between the "regular Services" and the others? — A. The three regular outside services are the Post Office, Customs and Inland Revenue. The outside employees of the Public Works, Railways and Canals, Justice, and all these Departments Q. Interior? — A. Yes, — are simply Government employees. Q. In all these services there are a very large number of employees? — A. At present there are no tests for these, anybody can be appointed. By the Chairman: Q. That is known as the Outside Service? — A. No, I beg pardon, that is the Irregular or Miscellaneous Service. Q. Have you any idea how many appointments are made in the Irregular Service ? — A.No. It would be necessary to inquire of the different Departments to obtain that information. At any rate it is perfectly true that in the regular Service the number is very limited, and in the higher grades, embracing the highly specialized classes of official, the returned soldiers will present probably ten times as many fully qualified persons as can be taken in. That being the case, why should not the best of them be taken. By Mr. Middlebro : Q. Would it be proper that a man's service in military life should count in his Civil Service career? — A. We have stipulated with most of the Departments that in the matter of promotion the employee shall not suffer because he has gone to the front, and we have objected to certain promotions because they would seem to conflict with that policy. Q. Then the Civil Servant's military service does count in the matter of promo- tion?— A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. You have no record of appointments made under section 22? — A. No. You would have to go to the Departments for that information. By the Chairman: Q. A suggestion was made here to-day, by Mr. Cameron, I think, that where a man applied for a position in the Civil Service and was selected, he should be given credit or the amount of time he had served in the Army. That is to say, if a man had served 18 months in the Army and should be admitted into the Civil Service, he should receive the pay to which he would be entitled after 18 months in the Civil Service? — A. That, perhaps, is feasible, but one of the difficulties to be overcome is this: Most of the returned soldiers who have been offered employment through our Board and have rejected it, have done so on the ground that they could not live on $40 a month. I think they are quite right. Q. Suppose a returned soldier who is offered $40 a month had, say, his 18 months' military service recognized, what would his salary amount to? — A. It would be the difference between $500 and $550. Q. It would be about $45 a month? — A. It would be about $44. The low salary is one of the difficulties we have to deal with now. We have never yet, I may say, obtained enough men in the third Division to fill the requirements of the Government at a salary of $500, the consequence being that women have had to take their places, and that is why we appoint to such positions two women to one man. Q. Do you say that is because of the lowness of the salary? — A. Yes, because of the lowness of the salary. [Dr. Adam Shortt.] 380 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETVRy ED SOLDIERS Q. Would it in your judgment, demoralize the Service to fix a minimum wage at which a soldier returned. from service overseas might enter the Public Service? — A. Not at all. The Civil Service Commissioners think the minimum should be fixed. Q. And raise it only for the returned soldier ( — A. Not for the returned soldier only, but if my pi'edictiou is at all correct, the returned soldiers ai'e the only class of people that will receive the advantage. Bij Mr. Middlehro: Q. What do you think of this suggestion, say in the case of a man who has spent three years in the Canadian Expeditionary Force, and who is admitted to the Civil Service: We will pay you the same salary as if you had already spent three years in the Civil Service? — A. Very well, but even if you do that it would only give him a salary of $600. In the bill which was interned at the outbreak of the war, the mini- mum was' raised to $700 for the Third Division, and $1,000 for the Second Division, with corresponding increases in the other Divisions. $700 is certainly the minimum at which you could get men to come into the Service, and that should apply to the returned soldiers. Q. You think the minimum should be raised? — ^A. Certainly, you will not get sufficiently qualified men to take the positions, returned soldiers or others, at the existing rates. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Women are coming in at those rates ? — A. Yes. Women compete with the men at present. They take $500, and I am free to say plainly, that the most of them live at home; if they did not, most of them would starve. The following Orders in Council were filed by witness : — (Copy.) P.C. 2170. PRIVY COUNCIL— CANADA. AT THE GOVERNMENT HOUSE AT OTTAWA, Thursday, the 12th day of October, 1916. Present : His Excellency The Deputy Governor General in Council. His Excellency the Deputy Governor General in Council, in order to remove a doubt that has arisen concerning the applicability of the Order in Council of the 27th November, 1915 (P.C. 2758), to the Outside Service; to ensure throughout the whole Government Service the efi"ective operation of the policy expressed in the said Order in Council ; and to prevent the appointment of men eligible for military service except in cases of necessity, is pleased, in virtue of the authority of section 6 of the War Measures Act, 1914, to make the following regulations and the same are hereby made and established accordingly: — 1. (a) In making all appointments to the Civil Service, whether in the Inside or in the Outside Service, preference shall be given to those candidates who have served overseas in His Majesty's Forces during the present war, and who have been honourably discharged therefrom, especially to those who through disability occasioned by active military service are unable to fill their previous occupations. [Dr. Adam Shortt.] RECEPTIOX, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 381 (h) Heads of Depart mouts, Deputy Heads of Departments and the Civil Service Commission shall, within their respective jurisdictions over appointments, be responsible fur establishing systematic methods for ensuring that such preference is given. The Civil Service Commissioners. 2. In the case of women, men of non-military age and men to whom, under the provisions of the Order in Council of the 16th August, 1916 (P.C. 1944), badges are issued, the tenure of temjwrary appointments to the Civil Service, whether in the Inside or in the Outside Service, may be extended to cover the period during which the present war shall continue, notwithstanding that the period should be greater than six months. 3. (a) During the continuance of the present war a candidate for examina- tion for, and appointment to the Civil Service, whether in the Inside or in the Outside Service, shall not be ineligible by reason of the fact that his or her age is less than eighteen years, provided that his or her age is greater than sixteen years. (h) During the continuance of the present war a candidate for exam- ination for, and appointment to the Civil Service, whether in the Inside or in the Outside Service, who has served overseas in His Majesty's Forces and who has been honourably discharged therefrom, or to whom a badge has been issued under the provisions of the Order in Council of the 16th August, 1916 (P.C. 1944), shall not be ineligible by reason of the fact that his age is greater than thirty-five years. 4. During the continuance of the present war no male person of military age shall be appointed to the Civil Service, whether in the Inside or in the Out- side Service, unless a badge has been issued to him luider the provisions of the Order in Council of the 16th August, 1916 (P.C. 1944). 5. A candidate who has served overseas in His Majesty's Forces, and has been honourably discharged therefrom, shall not be required to pay a fee for admission to any of the several examinations held under the direction of the Civil Service Commission for admission to or promotion in the Civil Service, whether in the Inside or in the Outside Service. 6. The Orders in Council of the 27th November, 1915 (P.C. 2758), and of the 4th August, 1916 (P.C. 759), shall be and the same are hereby revoked. (Sgd) KODOLPHE BOT^DREAU, Clerk of the Privy Council. (Copy) P.C. 1944. Certified copy of a Report of the Committee of the Privy Council, approved by His Royal Highness the Governor General on the 16th August, 1916. Privy Council Canada. The Committee of the Privy Council have had before them a memorandum from the Right Honourable the Prime Minister, dated 14th August, 1916, submitting a report from the Parliamentary Secretary of the Department of Militia and Defence, in which he concurs, recommending witli the concurrence of the ^lilitia Council that [Dr. Adam Shortt.] 382 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS under the provisions of the War Measures Act, 1914, the accompanying Kegulation? with regard to recruiting and the issue of badges be made and enacted and that all expenses incurred in connection with the same be paid out of the moneys available for the defence and security of Canada under the War Appropriation Act, 1916. The Committee, on the recommendation of the Prime Minister, submit the same for approval. (Sgd.) RODOLPHE BOUDREAU, Clerk of the Privy Council. The Civil Service Commissioners. (Copy.) REGULATIONS FOR RECRUITING. 1. The Governor in Council may appoint for each Military District an officer to be designated "Director of Recruiting" (or some other suitable title) who, under the District Commander, shall be charged with the duties hereinafter mentioned. 2. The duties of a Director of Recruiting shall be as follows: (a) To have supervision of recruiting within his Military District, and therein to (!0-ordinate the work of all agencies, civil and military, including regimental institutions, connected with recruiting. (h) To visit from time to time any locality within his Military District in which recruiting is in operation; and to make himself acquainted with the nature and importance of the various industries (agricultural, manufacturing, mining, lumbering, fishing or others) which are being carried on in such locality. (c) To take into consideration the character and importance of the employ- ment in which any persons proposed to be recruiting may be engaged; and to notify the Commanding Officer of any unit which is being recruited in any such locality whether the services of such persons would be of more value to the State in the employment in which they are then engaged than if such persons were enlisted for active service in the military forces of Canada. (d) In case the Director of Recruiting should determine that the services of any person are of more value to the State in the employment in which he is then engaged, such person shall not be enlisted in the military forces of Canada without the written authority of the Adjutant-General. (e) The Officer Commanding any unit which is being recruited in any such locality may through the regular channel appeal from the decision of the Director of Recruiting to the Adjutant-General, whose decision shall be final. (/) For the purpose of obtaining necessary information respecting con- ditions of industry and of employment from time to time, the Director of Recruiting shall confer with and receive communications from persons engaged in the industries hereinbefore mentioned and from any organizations especially interested, such as Agricultural Societies, Labour Organizations and ]\ranufac- turers' Associations. 3. The Governor in Council may also appoint for service at Militia Headquarters a Director-General of Recruiting who, under the Adjutant-General, shall be charged with the duty of supervising and co-ordinating the work of the Directors of Recruiting. 4. The Director-General and the Director of Recruiting shall be appointed to the Canadian Expeditionary Force; and their salaries and allowances shall be such as the Governor in Council shall from time to time appoint. 5. Salaries and all other expenses connected with recruiting for the Canadian Expeditionary Force will be charged against War Appropriations. [Dr. Adam Shortt.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 383 (Copy. EEGULATIONS RELATING TO BADGES. 1. Badges of such form as the Governor in Council may prescribe shall be issued to the following classes : — (a) Men honourably discharged from the Expeditionary Force; (h) Men who have offered themselves for active service in the present war and have been rejected; (c) Men who desire or who have offered to enlist and who have been refused upon the ground that their services are of more value to the state in the employ- ment in which they are engaged than if they should enlist for active service in the naval or military forces. 2. The badges so approved may be issued by any military officer duly authorized thereto by the Governor in Council to such persons as are deemed qualified to receive and wear the same. 3. Every badge so issued shall be ntmibered and shall be accompanied by a card bearing the same number and signed by the military officer issuing the same. Such card shall contain particulars as to the person to whom it is issued and the reasons for its issue. 4. No persons other than a person to whom such a badge has been duly issued by a military officer shall wear any badge so approved or any badge so nearly resembling the same as to be calculated to deceive. 5. No person shall falsely represent himself to be a person who is entitled to wear any such badge. 6. No person shall, without lawful authority, supply any such badge to any person not authorized to wear the same. 7. Every person to whom any such badge has been issued shall at all times while wearing the badge or having it in his personal possession carry with him the card issued to him along with the badge as aforesaid and shall, on the request of any mili- tary officer or constable produce the said card for his inspection. 8. In case any person wearing or possessing a badge fails to produce such card when demanded by the proper authority referred to above, the latter will take his name and address and report the matter to the local police for investigation, and to the officer commanding the military district. 9. In case any person shall lose whether his badge or his card he must forthwith report the loss to the officer by whom the badge was issued. 10. In no case will a badge be issued to persons who have been rejected on account of a temporary disability, or who are obviously unfit for service in and have not served with the Expeditionary Force, for example, to men who are totally blind, crippled, paralytic, etc. 11. Any persons fraudulently or without proper authority issuing or supplying any badge referred to in these regulations, and any person wearing such badge without lawful authority, or issuing or wearing any badge so nearly resembling the authorized badges as to be likely to deceive, shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding one hundred dollars or to imprisonment for a period not exceeding thirty days. Witness discharged. [Dr. Adam Shortt. 384 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETURNED SOLDIERS Mr. Joshua Zivian, 360 Lauricr avenue west, Ottawa, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. You are, at present, I understand. Secretary of the Canadian Association of Returned Soldiers? — A. Yes, sir, the Ottawa District. Q. You have been good enough to remain here to-day, during the deliberations of the Committee, and have heard practically all the evidence that has been given. We would be very glad if you would give us the benefit of your experience with regard to the treatment of the returned soldiers and their grievances? — A. The chief grievance so far is the question of salary, and I am glad that Dr. Shortt was here and I appre- ciate the sentiments he expressed. Q. You mean with reference to the salary at entrance into the Civil Service ? — A. The salary of the Civil Service. In the first instance, at Ottawa, I do not believe that a single man can live under $750, or $800 a year, if he lives according to the statistics of the Government Labovir Bureau for 1916, set out in the summary of statistics embodied in the report of the Committee regarding pensions. The Labour Bureau declared in that memorandum that a man could not live under $61.66 a month, which does not include fuel and light — I am not just certain with regard to that, but I think it is fuel and light anyway. Since 1915 the cost of living has increased so much that the statistics of the Government Labour Bureau must, at the present time, be cor- respondingly more, and yet the returned soldiers, or anybody else for the matter of that, but the returned soldiers especially, are offered the sum of $41.66 a month. Q. To enter into the lowest class of the Civil Service? — A. Yes. Q. From your experience you found they will not accept those positions? — A. From my experience, I have been doing my best to take them out of these positions at $41.66, and to put them into positions where they can get, if possible, a salary far exceeding that. Q. This $41.66 a month is in the case of a man who has suffered partial disable- ment, in addition to the amount which he received as a pension? — A. But it has been said that the fact that a man is in receipt of a pension should not interfere with the amount of salary he is paid. Q. As a matter of fact, does the Government give him any less than that $41.66 because he has a pension ; that is the minimum salary paid by the Government to any- body? — A. It does not give him any less, but at the same time I will show you an instance where a man is now working in the employ of the Government, taking the position of a man who was getting between $1,000 and $1,100 a year. This man's right hand is useless; he was a machinist by trade before he enlisted, and now he is in receipt of $41.66 for his services. The man whose place he took, under the war appropriation, was getting between $1,000 and $1,100 a year. This man is now in receipt of a pension of $21 a month, so that altogether he would be getting $62.66 per month, but, I submit, that that man was a machinist before he enlisted, he was getting more than that when he enlisted, and in spite of the handicap he has to go through for the whole of the rest of his life because of the loss of the use of his right hand, even with the addition of the pension of $21 a month, he is not getting the salary he used to earn before he enlisted. Q. Of course there is this side to that case, that if he had continued to work as a machinist, as he grew older in life he would earn less, and he would have no pension. He is now in the Civil Service, and he will have his pension up till the end? — A. But he is not in the Civil Service, in the position he now occupies, he is under the War Appropriation Act, and his employment is not permanent. Q. Under the " War Appropriation Act," w^hat do you mean by tliat ? — A. Under the War Appropriation Act, his is only a temporary appointment. This was a young man who had good prospects for the future, and by the loss of that arm he is handi- capped through the rest of his life. I do not think his prospects are nearly as good now as they were before: and besides he has lost his arm. [Mr. Joshua Zivian ' RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 385 By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. The individual whom this man succeeded was getting $1,100 whereas the man you speak of is only being paid $500 for the same work; was there any difference in the employment? — A. Same work. By the Chairman: ^ Q. Give us the name of that man, because we will investigate it? — A. R. H. Case, in the Department of the Interior. I might say the Department of the Interior have been very good in employing returned soldiers, and, in most cases, have given them a decent salary. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Is Case the name of the returned soldier? — A. Yes. Q. Whom did he replace? — A. Gillespie. Q. What did Gillespie do ? — A. The same work that Case is doing. (For correction see Appendix, Exhibit I.) Q. Immigration work? — A. No, stationery work. The Interior Department has been very good to returned soldiers and to our association. By the Chairman: Q. With regard to Case, was any attempt made on the part of the Hospitals Com- mission to re-educate him or re-train him for other work? You say he is a machinist and lost his trade? — A. Yes. Q. Has he endeavoured to get an opportunity to learn a new trade? — A. No, sir. Well, most of the returned soldiers expect word through their association in the city and as we have had no correspondence from any of the institutions in the city regard- ing that, he does not know. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Was your association aware of the existence of these institutions prior to that time? — A. Oh, yes. Q. But you had made no application to them for any of your men? — A. We knew about the vocational training, and any cases that came up in the course of events we certainly did make application to the authorities whom 'we thought could handle the it.atter. Q. Have they taken your men on and re-educated them, or given them vocational training? — A. I am not aware of any one having been re-educated in the city, although I understand that those in the convalescent hospitals now are being given the advan- tage of that. Q. Have any of your requests ever been refused for re-education or vocational training? — A. Never. Q. They have taken on any that you have asked them to? — A. We have never asked. By the Chairman: Q. Don't you think, Mr. Zivian, that instead of your Soldiers' Associaition, which has a very limited opportunity to place men, trying to do this work, you should put the responsibility on the organization that has been created for that purpose? Why don't you leave these men to the Soldiers' Aid Association? — A. Of course, that brings up an old subject that has been threshed out, but no really definite understanding has been arrived at. Our association is comiwsed entirely of returned men; they want to be together; they have been together in England and at the front, and they still Q. For social purposes, you mean? — A. Not only for social purposes, but for fraternal purposes and mutual benefits. Q. Yes? — A. And this association is all over Canada, from coast to coast, and they have formed for the purpose of fraternal benefits. 28277—25 [Mr. Joshua Zivian] 386 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Just like a lodge? — A. Well, not necessarily like a lodge. They expect the country — the State — to do something for them, for those who are disabled, and one of the results was vocational training, and so on. Q. The State, as we understand, has created an organization and provided for its support in the province of Ontario, which is known as the Soldiers' Aid Commission. Why does your organization not leave men who need training to the Soldiers' Aid Commission? Why do you, without facilities to undertake it, do what they are expected to do and have the facilities for doing? — A. As I said before, the men want to come to their own association. Q. Very good. — A. And if they possibly can do so they would rather come to that than to any other outside organization. By Mr. Pardee : Q. Let me ask one question: Suppose the man you spoke of could have been re- educated and made to earn $70 a month; would he rather take $41 in this work and be fraternally with you, or take $70 after his re-education? — A. If he was re-educated that does not mean that he need necessarily break away from our organization. Q. That is exactly what we are coming at. Why would you not make application to the Military Hospitals Commission in order to have that man re-educated? — A. I would make application to the commission if he asked me to. But I thiixk the com- mission should send a notice out to each man. By the Chairman: Q. Don't you think, being in the position you are in as secretary of this association, that one of the first things that you would do would be to get an organization together that would help your returned men? — A. Yes, Q. In order to help them, would you not go to the source where help may best be found? Don't you think the work the commission is doing; is worth your associa- tion taking up? — A. Yes. Q. Then why not communicate with them? — A. Well, I have no objection, or the men have no objections, to communicating with anybody in order to better their con- dition, far from it, but at the same time, the wishes of the men must be consulted. Q. What are their wishes now? — A. I am speaking of the man as an individual, not of the men as a body. Q. What are their wishes, what do they want to do? — A. For instance, a certain man has lost an arm, say his left arm, and he is not willing to take a position at $70 a month, which in the ordinary routine is what they would educate him for. Q. That is for them to say. Can you not state what the men want? — A. Well, we have suggestions as to how provision should be made for the returned soldier, for instance, such as engaging in poultry farming. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. Will they accept those suggestions? — A. Yes. Our object is to forward to the authorities some of these suggestions. Now, in connection with the land settle- ment scheme which has been talked of, I would sug;f?est the adoption of poultry farming, but of course you realize that the man must be fit to go into anything like that. Q. Just one more question : Suppose the land settlement scheme is determined on, and you continue to receive returned disabled soldiers whom re-education would put on their feet again, will you wait until the land settlement scheme becomes effective, or will you immediately open communication with the Military Hospitals Commission and see what can be done for your members? — A. Certainly I would send any man to the Military Hospitals Commission. I would advise him to go to them for his own good, not simply because the land settlement scheme is in abeyance, but because of the good he would derive from the education given by the Military Hospitals Commission. [Mr. Joshua Zivian.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 387 By the Chairman: Q. Which would you regard as of greater importance, the building up of your association or seeing that each individual man gets the best opportunity in respect to education ? — A. We expect to build up the organization of our association by means of the influence spoken of in the end of your question. Q. It would seem to me that in your opinion the other aim was the more important? — A. Kot at all. Q. According to the arguments you have made you would rather put the returned soldier into a $40 job yourselves than have the Soldiers' Aid Commission find him a $75 position ? — A. Oh, no, not at all, you have got me wrong there. I don't care who gives him the position, as long as he gets one at a salary on which he is able to live. Q. That is, your organization is quite willing to send the returned soldier to the proper authorities so that they may do all they can for him? — A. Yes. Q. Is that what you are doing ?^A. Certainly. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Then what do you mean by saying that the returned soldier would rather go to one of his own ? — A. What I mean is, the returned soldier will realize the position of a comrade more than an outsider, and will have more sympathy with him, Q. Quite so? — A. And, as a natural result, that returned soldier to whom he applies will try to do his utmost to put him in as good a position as possible. Now, the Soldiers' Aid Commission are, I understand, it is only a natural inference, trying to do exactly the same thing. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Who organized first, your association or the Soldiers' Aid Commission? — ^A. The Soldiers' Aid Commissdon, certainly. By Mr. Pardee: Q. I want to understand this matter quite clearly. Messrs. Scammell and Kidner have charge of the school, conducted by the Military Hospitals Commission ? — A. Yes. Q. Do you know whether that school is in existence? — A. Yes, 1 know it is in existence. Q. Have you, as secretary of the Returned Soldiers' Assooiation, taken the trouble to find out what kind of training or education is given? — A. Xo, I have not taken the trouble for the simple reason that I am working, and my services to the Soldiers' Association are voluntary, and I have not got time to keep in touch with everything. Q. I am not finding fault with you, I am trying to find out what the soldiers really want. Now, as secretary of the Soldiers' Association you knew of the school conducted by the Military Hospitals Commission, and you knew what the men I have mentioned were doing? — A. Yes. Q. Then, have you made any effort to have any returned soldier re-educated? — A. Yes. Q. Whom? — A. We had a man, I have forgotten what his name is. We had the man that Capt. IMacpherson referred to in his evidence thds morning, the man who had been an excellent engineer. Q. What happened, did you correspond with these people? —A. I did not corre- spond, but it was brought to their attention personally. Q. By whom? — A, I am not quite certain. Q. By the returned soldier? — A. I believe it was the Soldiers' Aid Association. Q. Was anything done with him, do you know? — A. Nothing was done with him. Q. Was the application refused? — A. I understand they did not have the neces- p'^uy facilities to tackle it. Q. They did not have the facilities for the sort of thing he wanted? — A. For the sort of thing he wanted. In regard to that man I may say that he was sent to a posi- 28277—25 J [Mr. Joshua Zivian ] 388 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS tion in the Government Service, he has six or seven children, and he was offered $41.66 per month, which, of course, he refused; he came back to our associatLpn, and we placed him at $70. Q. I am not talking ahout that, what became of the application that was made to have this man re-educated? — A. I do not know anything about that. Q. Is that the only man you have made application for? — A. Yes; Q. Why have you not made application for more? — A. I suppose that an applica- tion will be made for a number of these things in the future, but, I submit that the Hospitals Commission, or the Vocational Training people, should let us know^ all about these things so that we can submit it to our members. Q. Do you not think that, as you are doing this very exemplary work, you should find out what can be done for the returned men? — A. We are trying to find out. Q. But you know now what can be done? — A. I know about this vocational training. Q. But you have not made any effort at all, along that line. When the man came to you you got him a job in the Civil Service? — A. Who got him a job? Q. You or your association? — A. We did not get that for him, it was in his own home town he got the position. Q. Are there any other men in your association who are in the same position, men with maimed legs or arms? — -A. I would not say there are many of them, they are partially disabled. Q. Are they 20 per cent worse off than they were before? — A. Most of them, yes. Q. Are there many men who are in this condition who ought to be re-educated ? — A. No, quite a number of them were just labourers before; of course, there will be no re-education to put them in the same position they were in before, but at the same lime, they might be educated to do something. Q. So that there may be prospects for application by them for this vocational re- educational work? — A, They may apply. Q. How many of them have you out of employment, do you know? — A. I placed one of the men, I believe tihere are three out of employment — I would not say they are out of employment, but they are expecting their discharge, and we are looking out for positions for them. Q. Are there any of those who might take advantage of these opportimities ? — A. Yes. Q. Will you make application for them ? — A. Yes. Q. No doubt you will?— A. Yes. Q. When you told us you wanted to keep together for fraternal puriK)ses, you did not mean that the Eeturned Soldiers' Association wanted to place all your returned men yourselves; you were quite content to have them placed as outlined here? — A. Yes. My complaint is only incidental Q. So that your association is not in antagonism to the other association? — A. Not at all, no sir. Q. You are a returned soldier? — ^A. I must be, to be a member of the association. Q. And you are on pension now? — A. My pension is under consideration. Q. How long have you been back? — A. For a long while, last year. Q. What is the matter wdth the pension? — A. I do not know, however, it has been taken up by the Pension Board, and I expect results from it. Q. How long has it been under consideration? — A. It is just a matter of about two weeks. By the Chairman: Q. When you passed through the Board of Discharge at Quebec you were not rated as to the degree of disability? — A. Yes. Q. What was the rating?— A. I think it was SO per cent. [Mr. Joshua Zivian.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 389 By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. You stated that the application for a pension did not come before the Board until about two weeks ago; what was the reason of the delay? — A. I made no appli- cation for a pension. They should have sent me a form of application, but they did not: That was in the old time, ond I neglected to apply for a form, it was my fault. Q. Are you in the service of the Government now? — A. Yes. Q. In what Department, — ^lilitia? — A. Xo, the Interior Department. Witness discharged. Mr. E. K. Cameron (recalled) : I am filing all the material asked for by the Com- mittee excepting the proportion of enlisted soldiers who had only been in Canada a short time. We have not that material, but the secretary said it was a negligible quantity. Witness discharged. Committee adjourned, to meet in Montreal March 15, 1917. [Mr. E. R. Cameron.] 390 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS APPENDIX TO No. 4 PROCEEDINGS. EXHIBIT NO. 1.— Submitted by Mr. J. Zivian, Secretary. CANADIAN ASSOCIATION OF RETURNED SOLDIERS. Ottawa District, H.Q., 194 Sparks Street. Ottawa, Ont., March 5, 1917. Sir Herbert Ames, Chairman, Parliamentary Committee, On Returned Soldiers. Sir, — I beg to inform you that I made a mistake in my evidence before the Com- mittee on Returned Soldiers on Friday afternoon when speaking regarding a returned soldier named R. H. Case, who was supposed to have taken the place of an employee by the name of Gillespie. The position was formerly held by a permanent Civil Service employee by the name of Frederick William Carson, who, when he left the position to go overseas, was in the receipt of a salary of $1,100. The mistake occurred by the fact that Gillespie took the place of Carson originally and after some time in that position he also enlisted. The vacancy was then filled by Mr. Case. Trusting sir, that this part of the evidence will be corrected, I have the honour to be, sir. Your obedient servant, J. ZIVIAN, Secretary. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 391 APPENDIX TO No. 4 PROCEEDINGS. EXHIBIT No. 2.— Papei-s subinitted by Capt. Kenneth C. Macpherson. PROVINCE OF ONTARIO. By the Honourable William David McPherson, Provincial Secretary. To all to Whom these Presents shall come. Greeting : Whereas the Ontario Companies Act provides that with the exceptions therein mentioned, the Lieutenant-Governor may by Letters Patent create and constitute bodies corporate and politic for any of the purposes to which the authority of the Legislature of Ontario extends. And Whereas by the said Act it is further provided that the Provincial Secretary may under the Seal of his office have, use, exercise, and enjoy any power, right, or authority conferred by the said Act on the Lieutenant-Governor: And Whereas by their Petition in that behalf the persons herein mentioned have prayed for a Letters Patent constituting them a body corporate and politic for the due carrying out of the undertaking hereinafter set forth. And Whereas it has been made to appear that the said persons have complied with the conditions precedent to the grant of the desired Letters Patent and that the said undertaking is within the scope of the said Act. Now Therefore Know Ye that I, William David McPherson, provincial secre- tary, under the authority of the hereinbefore in part recited Act do by these Letters Patent hereby constitute the persons hereinafter named, that is to say: — Kenneth Clarke Macpherson, William Pemberton Morling, and Hugh Spencer Relph, military officers; Joseph Bernard Henshaw, civil servant; Joshua Zivian, John Reginald Phillips, Harry Lewis, Alexander Kirkwood, William Craig, and Arthur Lapointe, esquires; and William M. Lewis, military non-commissioned officer, all of the City of Ottawa, in the County of Carleton, and Province of Ontario, and any others who have become subscribers to the Memorandum of Agreement of the Corporation, and persons who become members in the Corporation, a corporation with- out share capital for the following purposes and objects, that is to say: — (a) To perpetuate the close and kindly ties of mutual service in the great war and the recollections and associations of that experience and to maintain proper standards of dignity and honour amongst all, returned soldiers; (h) to preserve the memory and records of those who suffered and died for the nation; to see to the erec- tion of monuments to their valour and the establishment of an annual memorial day; (c) to ensure that provision is made for due care of the sick, wounded and needy among those who have served, including reasonable pensions, employment for such as are capable, soldiers' homes, medical care and proper provision for dependent families of enlisted men, and (d) to constantly inculcate loyalty to Canada and the Empire and unstinted service in their interests. The corporate name of the corporation to be " The Canadian Association of Returned Soldiers, Ottawa District." The head office of the corporation to be situate at the said city of Ottawa, and the provisional directors of the corporation to be Kenneth Clarke Macpherson, Joseph 392 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Bernard Henshaw, William Pembcrton Morling, Joshua Zivian, John Reginald Phillips, Harry Lewis, Alexander Kirkwood, Hugh Spencer Relph, William Craig, Arthur Lapointe, and William M. Lewis, hereinbefore mentioned. And I Hereby Declare (1) The subscribers to the memorandum of agreement of the corporation shall be the first members and the corporation shall consist of the subscribers and of those who shall, hereafter, be duly elected as members of the corporation in accordance with the by-laws and regulations from time to time in force; (2) the interest of a member in the corporation shall not be transferable and shall lapse and cease to exist when such member shall cease to be a member of the corporation by death, by resignation or otherwise in accordance with the by-laws and regulations from time to time in force; (3) the directors of the corporation shall constitute the committee of management of the corporation, and (4) by-laws and regulations for the management and control of the corporation governing the election of the committee of management of the corporation from time to time and the conditions of membership of the corporation shall be established subject to amendment as herein provided, at the general meeting to be held not more than six months after incorporation at such time and place as the directors may determine and such by-laws, regulations and amendments shall replace those set out in form four to the schedule to The Ontario Companies Act, save that in any matters covered by such form four and not provided for in the corporation's by-laws, regulations or amendments, the provisions of said form four shall apply and be in force, but all such matters which after the passing of the corporation's first by-laws and regulations may be lef' to be governed by such form four may be varied and amended by any by-laws, consrir^tion or regulations; And I Further Declare that the corporation shall be carried on without the purpose of gain for its members and that any profits or other accretions to the corporation shall be used in promoting its objects. Given under my hand and seal of ofiice at the city of Toronto, in the said province of Ontario, this twentieth day of January, in the year of Our Lord one thousand nine hundred and seventeen. (Signed) WM. DAVID MACPHERSON, Provincial Secretary. MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS. • House of Commons, Room 301, Frtoay, March 2, 1917. The Special Committee of the House of Commons on Returned Soldiers, met at 10.15 a.m., the Chairman, Sir Herbert Ames, presiding. Members present: Sir Herbert Ames, Chairman; Brigadier-General Mason, of the Senate Committee; and Messieurs McCurdy, Middlebro, Murphy, Pardee, and Ross (Middlesex). The secretary was instructed to read the Minutes of the proceedings of Thurs- day, March 1, which were adopted. The Committee then proceeded to consider the evidence given by Mr. E. R. Cameron, Chairman of the Soldiers' Aid Commission, Ottawa Branch; Controller J. W. Nelson, Chairman of the Soldiers' Reception of the City Council of Ottawa; Mrs. Crombie, President, Soldiers' Club, Laurentian Chapter, I.O.D.E.; Captain Kenneth C. Macpherson, President of the Canadian Association of Returned Sol- diers; Major H. S. Relph, Advisory Counsel; Lieut.-Colonel C. S. Maclnnes, Assistant Adjutant-General; Mr. R. P. Brown, Acting Paymaster-General of the Militia Department; Dr. Adam Shortt, Civil Service Commissioner; and Mr. Joshua Zivian, Secretary, Canadian Association of Returned Soldiers. Papers relating to the Charter of the Canadian Association of Returned Soldiers were submitted by Captain Macpherson during his examination — ordered printed. Lieut.-Colonel C. S. Maclnnes was requested to furnish the Committee with a statement showing the number of disabled men of Class "E " in England awaiting discharge. Mr. McCurdy moved, seconded by Mr. Murphy, that the Chairman secure accom- modations in ^Montreal to enable the Committee to hold a meeting in said city on Thursday and Friday, March 15th and 16th, and that the Secretary communicate with the following persons inviting them to appear before the Committee to give evidence : — E. W. Wilson, Major-General, G.O.C., M.D. No. 4, Montreal; Lieut.-Colonel Patch, A.D.M.S., No. Military District, Montreal; Lieut.-Colonel Clarence F. Smith, Chairman, Military Hospital Commission, Montreal; Dr. F. J. Shepherd, Military Hospital Commission, Montreal; Lieut.-Colonel Mackenzie Forbes, M.D., Med. Officer, " A " Unit, Montreal ; Capt. H. S. Dunstan Grey, Grey Nuns Convalescent Home, Montreal; Mr. A. R. Doble, Pros., Khaki League, Montreal; Major D. D. MacTaggart, Khaki League, Convalescent Home, ^lontreal ; Lieut. McAllum, Voca- tional Training, Grey Nunnery, Montreal; Dr. J. R. Byers, Laurentian Inn Med. Sanitarium, Ste. Agathe; Hon. George A. Simard, Chairman, Soldiers Aid Comm., Ste. Agathe; Mr. George Pye, Secretary, Soldiers' Aid Comm., Ste. Agathe; Mrs. James Williamson Ross, Pensions Board, Montreal; F. W. Evans, Secretary, Dom. Bridge Co., Lachine; Dr. Harrison, Prin. Macdonald College, Ste. Anne de Belle- vue; Rev. C. A. Williams, Chief Recruiting Officer, Mil. Dist. No. 4, Montreal; Trooper V. A. Brown, Secty., Returned Soldiers Assn.. Montreal; Mr. E. A. Brice, Secretary, St. Georges Society, Montreal; Mrs. E. B. Busteed, Pres., Soldiers' Wives League, Montreal; Mrs. W. Rutherford, Pres., Westmount Soldiers' Wives League, 393 394 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Westmount; Capt. J. E. Gauthier, C.A.M.C., Supt. Health Council, Montreal; Sergt. Major Napoleon Marion, Grey Nunnery, Montreal; J. G. Evans, Secty., Veterans' Association, Kingston, Ont.; Mr, F. H. Sexton, B.Sc, Vocational Officer, Military Hospital Commission, Montreal; Hon. E. M. McGregor, New Glasgow, N.S. — See telegram, March 14th; Mr. Justice Harris, Halifax, N.S.; Mr. D. H. McDougall, Glace Bay, C.B., N.S.; Major W. P. Purney, Pres., Eeturned Soldiers' Assn., Hali- fax, N.S.; W. B. McCoy, Secty., Eeturned Soldiers' Employment Comm., Halifax, N.S.; Dr. Thomas Walker, St. John, N.B.— See letter, date March 12th; Mr. George Mayer, St. John, N.B.; Mrs. (Eev.) Kuhring, St. John, N.B.— See letter, date March 10th; Mr. Chas. Eobinson, Secty., Eeturned Soldiers Aid Comm. of N.B., St. John N.B.; W. F. Hatheway, Esq., 71 St. James St., St. John, N.B.; L. P. D. Tilley, M.P.P., 39 Princess St., St. John, N.B., which were agreed to. The Secretary was instructed to communicate with Mayor Church of the City of Toronto with a view to securing accommodation at the City Hall to enable the Committee to meet in that City on March 20th, 21st, 22nd and 23rd. On motion of Mr. Middlebro, seconded by Mr. Pardee, the Committee then adjourned until Thursday, March 15th at 10 o'clock, a.m. V. CLOUTIEE, HEEBEET B. AMES, Clerk of the Committee. Chairman. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AXD RE-EDUCATION 395 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Windsor Hotel, Montreal, KooM 129, Thursday, March 15, 1917. The Committee met at 10 a.m., the Chairman, Sir Herbert Ames, presiding. Major General Eurastus Willum Wilson, General Officer Commanding Military District No. 4, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. Will you describe briefly to us the organization of No. 4 Military District, with a view particularly of showing us where the medical work, or rather the medical work and the disciplinary work, comes under your control? — A. The organization of this military district is the same as that of all the other military districts. We have an Assistant Director of Medical Service here who has charge of all the medical work under the Director General of ^Medical Service at Ottawa. He deals with medical examinations and other matters of that kind. Q. What is your relationship to the Army Medical Corps, or to a unit of the Army Medical Corps? — A. All those departments come under the General Officer Com- manding for discipline and administration. That is, any communication from the medical department to the Militia Council must go through the General Officer Com- manding to make him familiar with what is being done. Q. Would you explain, for example, the relation of Dr. Mackenzie Forbes and Dr. Patch to you? — A. Dr. Mackenzie Forbes has no relation with me whatever, excepting should something arise from a disciplinary point of view. He is imder the Military Hospitals Commission. Dr. Patch is directly under me, and receives his instructions through me from the Militia Council. Sometimes he receives them from his own superior officer. Q. What is the difference between the classes of patients handled by Dr. Mac- kenzie Forbes and by Dr. Patch? — A. I cannot answer that question, I do not know sufficient about the matter. Q. Which class of soldiers come under your general supervision, the men going out or those coming back? — A. The men going out are the ones we pay the most attention to. Q. To what extent are the men coming back under your direction or control? — A. Only when they come under the administration of Colonel Patch. Q. We will get that information more particularly when Colonel Patch is on the witness stand. 1 would now ask you to file for the record a list of the Battalions raised in No. 4 District and their strength on going overseas? — A. I have that all prepared, I have given full details not only of the battalions, but all the units. Q. You might tell us briefly the limits of No. 4 District? — A. I could not enumerate them from memory. Q. How far west does it go? Up to the border of Ontario? — A. It goes to the border of Ontario, and it runs from around Sherbrooke, Richmond, Yamaska . Q. As far as Three Rivers? — A. Yes, it takes in Three Rivers. Q. And how far up the Ottawa does it go? — A. It goes right up the Ottawa, right to the North Pole, I think. Q. It takes in Argenteuil and Pontiac? — A. Yes. Q. As far as Lake Temiscaming? — A. Yes. [Major-General Wilson.] 396 SPECIAL COMAIITTEE—C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Hon Mr. Marcil: Q. It is important that we should have the boundaries of the district? — A. If I had the Militia List here, or a map, I could show you the boundaries; but I cannot from memory answer such a question as that. The Chairman: You might fyle, simply for the information of the Committee, a statement showing the area and the population of the district. By the Chairman: Q. You have a statement of the list of units raised, their strength on leaving, and the detail of the number of the men sent overseas ? — A. Yes. Q. You might fyle that for the information of the Committee. Hotv many men have returned who were sent from No. 4 District? — A. How many have returned? Q. How many returned soldiers have come back to No. 4 District from Overseas? — A. Approximately 1,580. Q. Have you any figures that would show what proportion of those are casualties, and what proportion of those are misfits? — A. It is impossible for me to tell that; no information is furnished by Headquarters, except that a certain number of men were killed, wounded, or missing, according to the date the casualty happens; the various districts are not shown separately. Q. But l,58(Xmen have so far returned? — A. That is approximately, as near as we could get it. Q. Do you know how many of these men had been to the front, and how many of them returned from England? — A. That is impossible to tell; we have received no information from Ottawa of the number of men who have been returned having never reached France. Q. And you cannot tell us what proportion have come back from France, and what proportion have come back from England? — A. No. Q. How many men have you sent overseas to date from No. 4 District? — A. 1,393 officers and 27,980 men, out of which approximately 1,580 have been returned. Q. You sent 27,980 men, out of which number 1,580 have returned? — A. Yes. Q. And you do not know how many of those were discharged as medically unfit? — A. No, sir. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Can you tell me how many men have enlisted in District No. 4? — A. Yes, the list I gave you just now shows that. The total number of enlistments were 1,649 officers and 35,652 of other ranks. By the Chairman: Q. Making a total 37,301?— A. I have not totalled them up— yes, 37,301. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Are those figures shown by years? — A. No, sir, those are since the commence- ment of the war until February 28, 1917, when the list was made up. By the Chairman: Q. Then 37,301 men have enlisted, of which 27,980 officers and men have gone across? — A. Exactly. Q. How many men have you here at present? — A. According to this list those discharged and struck off strength were 40 officers and 5,028 men. Q. That is, there are practically 5,028 men, representing those medically unfit, those discharged, and desertions ? — A. That accounts for all casualties as shown on the statement. [Major-General Wilson.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AXD RE-EDUCATION 397 Q. There should be about 5,000 men in the district now ready to go? — A. No, there were stationed in the district on the 28th of February last 216 officers and 2,644 men. Q. General Wilson, does the figure of 27,980 that you gave as having gone over- seas include both officers and men? — A. No, sir. There were 1,393 officers and 27,980 men. Q. That would give a total of 29,373 men who have gone overseas. That leaves 'a difference of 7,928 officers and men. You say that you have 5,068 struck off as medi- cally unfit, and 2,860 here as present? — A. Exactly. Q. Making a total of 7,928, So that the total enlistment from District No. 4 was 37,301 of whom 29,373 have gone overseas, including officers; 5,068 have been struck off the list; and 2,860 are here at present expecting to go overseas? — A. Exactly. Q. Does that 2,860 include Special Service Companies? — A. No, I do not think so. We put the Special Service Companies in a complete regiment, they are simply doing guard duty. Q. The 2,860 are regarded as men eligible for overseas service? — A. Exactly. By Mr. Bennett: Q. That seems hardly correct. The total of the discharged men and of those who have gone overseas makes 37,301. The total enlistment included the Special Service Companies, therefore they must be included? — A. That might be. They simply repre- sent 2 officers and 94 men, a number that is not very material. The Chairman : Does the committee wish to ask General Wilson any further questions with reference to enlisting? We will ask Dr. Patch more particularly about the medically unfit. Will you tell us General Wilson, about the Special Service Com- pany, its number, strength and duties, and how many may be expected to be fit for overseas service? — A. Well the total February 28, would be that there were two officers and 94 of other ranks, and they were distributed at that date as follows: Eleven of them were doing garrison military police work, 52 on picquet and guard duty, seven men in hospital, nine men as clerks and orderlies, 13 men doing fatigues and furnaces and five deserters. Q. How many of those men will becon.e fit for overseas service? — A. That I ani rmable to answer, Q. Do you anticipate any considerable number? — A, I do not think so. Q. You do not regard that Special Service Company then as liable to assist recruiting to any great extent by getting men?— A. No. You asked a question about how many of those men might be sent overseas. It would depend altogether on the unit you -were going to draft them into. I do not think there will be any of them fit for an infantry or artillery unit. Q. That is a combatant unit? — A. No; but some of them may possibly be fit to go with those units that do not have such a high standard of physical fitness. Q. Forestry units? — A. Yes. Q. And Railway units ?— A. Yes, there may be a certain percentage of th*m there Q. Do you know how man;^' of them are under or over age? — A. I do not. Q. How about a man being released from a special service company. What is your procedure in that respect? — A. These men are released under headquarters authority wherein it lies within the power of the general officer commanding the dis- trict, on the recommendation of the officer commanding the unit, to discharge any man who is not likely to be fit for overseas serv^ice, or if he is not likely to make an efficient soldier for duties here, also for i^amily reasons. It is considered that none of these men will become fit for overseas service, but those who had minor defects were transferred to units whose lower physical standard would permit of their being taken such as Forestry and Railroad Construction Units. The principal causes of unfitness of these men are hernia, fiat feet, and weakness of heart. In most cases these defects [Major-General Wilson.] 398 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS should have been discovered by the doctors making the original examination. We have discharged quite a number of them when they have applied for it. . Q. Supposing a man with a large family enlists, intending to go overseas, and after being enlisted is found incapable of going overseas, and is sent to the Special Service Corps; would you release him on the ground that he had a large family to support and had been disappointed in not being allowed to go over? — A. If he applied for it, yes. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Is there any distinction made now in the class of men recruited from what there was the first year of the war? — A. Not to my knowledge. The standard is a little higher for infantry ; in some cases it has been lowered. I think we have lowered the standard for overseas. Q. You are not excluding any particular class because they belong to any special trade or calling, but enlist all who come forward who are qualified? — A. Concessions have been granted in certain cases where men are filling certain occupations, it was thought possible their duties here were of more importance than their duties as soldiers would be. Q. "Was that done under instructions from the Department, or was it optional with the officers? — A. The Department gave the authority to do it. Q. Do you know if any considerable number has been refused enlistment on the ground that their services would be more useful here? — A. No. Q. If a man enlists in Montreal, is he credited to Montreal if he comes from one of the rural parts of the province ? — A. We only enlist in No. 4 Military District. Q. That comprises a large number of rural districts ? — A. Yes, quite so. Montreal happened to be the headquarters of this district, but if he comes from one of the counties, on his attestation papers his address and all information that is required to tell where the recruit arises is given. Q. He is credited to the district? — A. He belongs to the district. If any more details are required we will be glad to furnish them. By Mr. Bennett: Q. There is no difficulty, if you have the slips, in ascertaining what counties the men come from? — A. Not the slightest. Q. It is only a question of taking the necessary time to go over the nominal roll and you can determine the number of men that come from any county in Canada. There is no particular trouble involved? — A. No trouble at all. By the Chairman: Q. There has been some criticism. General Wilson, with respect to a hiatus in pay between the time of a man's discharge and the time he commences to draw his pension. Have you had any complaints from discharged men whose pensions have been delayed? — A. I have a recollection of one or two instances where unintentionally men were discharged before their pension was arranged, but the matter was adjusted afterwards. Hon. Mr. Murphy: That difficulty has been adjusted by an amended Order in Council. Mr. Bennett : The new Order in Council prevents any such cases now. The Witness : Exactly. By Mr. Bennett: Q. There is no question now of delay? — A. No. The Chairman: I was going to bring out the fact that while there may have been some delay in the past it has presumably been rectified as far as the future is con- cerned ? The Witness : Yes, sir. [Major-General Wilson.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATTON 399 By the Chairman: Q. Can you tell us briefly what the machinery is which discharges a man from military service? — A. For example, if a man is medically unfit — Q. Who discharges him and what constitutes the discharge? — A. The authority which comes from the General Officer Commanding the District to the officer com- manding the unit. Q. And does every man who is discharged in No. 4 District have to be discharged by you? — A. Oh, no. Q. Who do you delegate that authority to? — A. To the officer commanding the unit. Q. The officer commanding the unit can make the discharge? — A. Exactly. Q. I wanted to find out the source of authority in discharging a man. Xow, will you tell us, General Wilson, whether !^^ajor Hall, of the Grey Xunsr' Convalescent Home, is under your direction? — A. Major Hall is under me, like all other officers in this district, for discipline only. Q. He receives his instructions for the administration of his unit from the Military Plospitals Commission, but he is under your joint authority in a wav? — A. If anything arises in connection with matters of discipline among the men it has to come to me. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. For the benefit of those who do not know the gentleman, who is Major Hall? . — A. ^Major Hall was an officer in the artillery here, who was appointed Officer in charge of "A"' unit of ]\rilitary Hospitals Commission with headquarters in Montreal. Q. What position did he occupy in civil life? — A. He was employed by the C.P.R. Q. Is he an engineer or a man with technical experience? — A. I believe he was employed in the office at the Windsor Depot. By the Chairman: Q. Major Hall is the Military Hospitals Commission command officer in charge of the Grey Nuns' Hospital. I am trying to find out under whom Major Hall comes, whether under the Military Hospitals Commission or imder you, because this will lead up to another question. By what authority are the regulations governing the hours that men at the Grey Nuns' Hospital may be out on leave, and the treatment accorded to men who have misbehaved themselves when on leave, carried out? — A. That matter has never been submitted to me. Q. What authority has the power to determine what hours the men at the Grey Nuns' Convalescent Home shall be permitted to go out and what hours they shall not be permitted to go out? — A. I cannot answer that question because I do not know. Q. Then it has never come under your cognizance? — A. It has never been sub- mitted to me. Any orders of that kind that are in force have been issued by Major Hall, I presume. Q. On his own responsibility? — A. I cannot say as to that. The orders may have come from the Military Hospitals Commission. Q. You have at the Grey Nuns' Convalescent Hospital a large number of camp cases? — A. Camp cases? Q. Yes.— A. Oh, yes. Q. They are not under the Military Hospitals Commission at all I — A. No. Q. Who makes the rules that govern the hours of these camp cases? — A. I beg your pardon, I do not think we have any camp cases there now. Q. Yes, there are some at the Grey Nuns' Convalescent Hospital. — A. Colonel Patch can tell you as to that. Q. What I want to find out is the source of authority for the disciplinary measures enforced on the men at the Grey Nuns' Hospital? — A. I do not know that. The administration there has been carried on without reference to me. As far as my knowledge goes, nothing bearing on that matter has been submitted to me. [Major-General Wilson.] 400 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Suppose the men who are convalescing at the Grey Nuns' Hospital were dis- satisfied with the reprulations with respect to their hours of leave, and the hours at which they were permitted to go outside the institution, to whom should they com- plain? — A. They should complain, I imagine, to Major Hall. Q. Would Major Hall have the authority to decide entirely, or would he have to refer the matter to another officer? — A. Well, you know it is the privilege of the soldier to make an appeal to a higher authority. Q. To whom should he appeal? — A. He should come to me if it is a matter bearing on discipline. Q, Have any complaints come to you from the convalescents in the Grey Nuns' Hospital with regard to the hours of leave they are permitted to take?— A. The matter has never been submitted to me. By Mr. Bennett: Q. I think possibly you misunderstood the question. From the standpoint of discipline, every man who wears a uniform in this military district is supposed to be subject to you? That is the theory?— A. That is the theory. Q. In practice, the Military Hospitals Commission has the control of these officers, is that not so ?— A. Yes. Q. And you have nothing to do with that administration as such? — A. Quite so. Q. Major Hall is the head of Unit "A" of the Military Hospitals Commis- sion? — A. Yes. Q. Occupying in that connection, what you might term a position of supreme importance in the matter of administration, that is right, is it not? — A. He is the Officer Commanding. Q. And exercises all the powers of an officer commanding? — A. Exactly. Q. And his instructions come from the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. So far as I know, Q. So that in practice you have nothing whatever to do with the administration of the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. That is correct. Q. Major Hall, as the officer commanding this unit, is in supreme control of administration ? — A. Yes. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. I suppose that as Officer Commanding this district you would be as closely in touch with the returned soldier as any officer in Canada? — A. No, sir. As Officer Commanding this district I devote my whole time and attention to securing and training men to go overseas and fight. The returned soldiers are under the care of the Military Hospitals Commission, or the medical department. I have not the time to supervise the care of returned soldiers. I give my whole attention to recruit- ing and training the soldiers and getting them overseas. By Mr. Bennett: Q. The Military Hospitals Commission was created in order to relieve you of the responsibility connected with the returned soldier. (No ansewr.) By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Have you any suggestions to make to, this Committee that will tend to improve the lot of the returned soldier when he gets back to this country? — A. I am sorry that I am unable to meet your wishes, but I have every confidence that Colonel Patch and his staff, and also Colonel Busteed, who comes into personal contact with returned soldiers, will be able to give you the benefit of their experience and good advice. As far as I am personally concerned, I am unable to do that. [Major-General Wilson.] EXHIBIT No. 3 28277—25 a RECEPTIOy, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 401 By Mr. Middlebro: Q. Have you any complaints to mal allow(^ he treated as an out patient and comes only for supervision of his medical treatment. [Lieut-Colonel F. S. Patch.] 412 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. You have no other complaint to make, have you? — A. The one great ques- tion which has been troubling- me as A.D.M.S. for the past ten months is that this matter of defining medical responsibility for returned soldiers should be settled. By the Chairman: Q. Definitely one way or the other? — A. Definitely one way or the other. Q. Is Dr. Mackenzie Forbes under you?— A, He has been detailed since 30th January for employment with the Military Hospitals Commission Command, and would only come under me in the same sense that Major Hall did under General Wilson, i.e. for discipline. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. The result of your evidence is, that so far as you know, the returned soldiers in the past have been given all the accommodation required for them. As far as their treatment is concerned there is no complaint? Further, as far as you are aware, the Military Hospitals Commission has at present sufficient accommodation for returned soldiers and is prepared to provide a sufficient accommodation for the future. The one point you complain of is that there has been divided authority in this matter. Now, if the suggestion which has been made by the Minister of the Militia is carried out, that the Army Medical Corps have the direction of these institutions, will you then have any cause for complaint? — A. I will have no griev- ance at all then. By the Chairman: Q. So far as you know, the accommodation provided for returned soldiers has been ample in this respect? — A. Absolutely, sir. Q. At no time have you not had sufficient beds to accommodate the returned soldiers? — A. No, sir, except possibly that in an individual hospital we may have to make a little adjustment; but the Grey Nuns Hospital has never been fully occupied, there have always been empty beds. By Mr. Bennett: Q. I understand you to say that you favour the medical work in connection with the returned soldiers being left in the hands of the Army Medical Corps ? — A. I do, sir. Q. That is your personal view ? I suppose you will admit the problem is of a two- fold character. First of all, the physical condition of a man has to be considered? — A, Yes, sir. Q. And secondly, his rehabilitation for civil life, having regard to his physical condition, that is so, is it not? — A. Yes, sir- Q. It is obvious that he cannot receive the care and attention which should fit him for civil life and for absorption into civil life, in an ordinary hospital? I mean, bearing in mind his vocational training and work of that character. That is obvious, is it not ? — A. Not in an ordinary hospital. .Q. I say, not in an ordinary hospital. That is obvious, is it not ? — A, I don't think he could get that in an ordinary hospital. Q. I am asking you the question. It is obvious he cannot receive that care and attention in an ordinary hospital? — A. Yes. Q. Well, could he secure it in an ordinary Convalescent Home? — A. Not unless the special facilities were provided. Q. Therefore it follows that special institutions must be created ? — A. Or available institutions made use of. Q. That is the same thing: Special institutions must be created, that is clear, is it not? — A. Yes, or existing institutions made use of- [Lieut.-Colonel F. S. Patch.] RECEPTION, TREATMEXT AXD RE-EDUCATION 413 Q. Now we are agreed up to that point ? — A. Yes. Q. Then the matter resolves itself into a question of (o) The technical side of the medical care, and (6) the technical side of the other branch of training. That is so, is it not? — A. Yes. Q. And on the medical side one or two things may happen : either he must be taken care of by men who are responsible for those who control the institutions — whether you call them a commission or something else — that is clear, isn't it? Whoever has charge of the medical work must be responsible to those who control the institu- tion ? — A, He might be in charge of it. Q. The proposition I lay down is true, is it not, and you will agree with it? — A. Not necessarily, the Military Organization provides for Command. Q. I am not talking about that. What I say is, that whoever is charged under the law for the responsibility of the institution must have control of the men who work in that institution or else you are going to get no results < — A. Are you not leading me a little there ? Q. I am not leading you at all. I simply want an answer to a plainly stated pro- position. The Chairman : Let Dr. Patch say what he has to say, do not cut him off. Q. I am asking you this. Colonel Patch : You have admitted that a special institu- tion must be created or an existing institution made use of? — A, Yes, Q. Especially equipped to deal with the returned soldiers problem? — A. That is what I say. Q. Now, that institution must be under the control and charge of some given authority? — A. Yes. Q. That is clear, isn't it?— A. Yes. Q. Then it follows, naturally, as you say it does, that the returned soldier must be cared for in two senses: (a) On the medical side, and (b) On the oivil side, regard being paid to his future absorption into civil life. You admit all that? — A. Yes. Q. Then, is it not essential if you are going to get results, that the authority charged with responsibility for training him for absorption into civil life, should have control also of the first branch, namely the medical care? — A. No. Q. Then you want the Army Medical Corps to take charge of the medical work of these institutions? — A. I do.- Q. And you want another body to be in charge of the institution? — A. I will take an example exactly analogous to this: The training of the soldier going overseas is just as important as the training of the man who has come back. Now. the Army Medical Corps performs the medical work connected with the dispatch of the army overseas, although it has nothing to do with the training of the soldier for overseas duty. By the Chairman: Q. That is a matter of military training? — A. That is a matter of military train- ing. After the man's return the ^lilitary Hospitals Commission can look after their training and return to civil life, while the Army Medical Corps attends to their medical care. i?.V Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. That would be making provision for the returned soldier similar to that made before he went overseas? — A. That is right. Bij Mr. Bennett: Q. You do not seriously moan that proposition? — A. I do. Q. On his return', the man is a casualty case, and one for whom provision must be made for absorption into civil life, is not that so? — -A. Yes. [Lieut.-Colonel F. S. Patch.] 414 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Do you see any analogy between the two cases J — A. I do. The matter of train- ing is the same. Mr. Bennett : It is not the same at all. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Do you say the matter of training is the same? — A. In a medical sense, the training is the same. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You said a moment ago you did not believe in dual control, did you not ? Now you have told Mr. Pardee that you do believe in dual control. — A. Not as far as medical administration is concerned. Q. Then dual control is bad with relation to medical administration, but good as applied to the control of the institution. — A. But remember, in the one case tlic admin- istration is all under the General Officer Commanding the District. In the other case it is not. Q. The institution, as such, is in charge of the Military Hospitals Commission. Now, the work divides itself into two classes: the medical side and the other side which is intended to accomplish the man's absorption into civil life. Nov , it ia obvious that the control of those in charge of the medical work should be vested in those who have control of the institution. But you want the introduction of another authority altogether in the medical control, that is your view and your opinion ? — A. I am not concerned iri that. Q. All you are concerned in is, that having belonged to the Army Medical Corps, you believe that corps is the best qualified to deal with the situation? — A. I say that the Army Medical Corps originated in time of peace, and having been organized, I do not see that this, the greatest problem that has arisen in connection with this work, should be taken from it. Q. You resent the idea that there should be taken from the Arm^ Medical Corps any part of the duties which you say it is capable and competent to perform ; that is your idea? — A. Certainly, but my present view, is that there is at present a dual responsibility with regard to the medical administration; the Military Hospitals Com- mission making certain arrangements, of which I am not aware, and even going into the homes and giving orders that I may not agree with. Q. You are familiar with hospitals for the blind? — A. Yes. Q. And that in these schools for the blind there are two sides of the work, the medical staff looks after and cares for the health of the patients, and there is also the highly trained person who teaches them how to read, and trains them for the duties of life. What could you, as a medical man think if the medical superintendent there is responsible to the Provincial Government and the Institution was being carried on by the city of Montreal? — A. I do not quite follow your argument. Q. I am just putting this to you to see what you think with respect to dual con- trol in connection with the medical care and the training for work of the patients in the schools for the blind? Would it be good either with respect to the patients or the country? — A. No. Q. Now, what is the difference between having a schdol for the blind, where the health of the patients is to be cared for on the one hand, and their training on the other, and an institution where the medical health is cared for by the medical staff on one hand, and the physical training by a different staff, on the other? There is not much difference between the two is there? — A. No. Q. What I am trying to get at is — I have no interest in the matter at all — A. I must say that I do not altogether follow your line of reasoning. For that reason my answers may appear inconsistent. Besides the case is not parallel to the matter under discussion. [Lieut.-Colonel P. S. Patch.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 415 Q. What I want to get at, if I can, is why dual control with respect to military hospitals should not be satisfactory when dual control with respect to schools for the blind you say would be all right? — A. The Army Medical Corps looks after the health of the soldiers going overseas and it could, I say, just as easily look after the health of the soldiers under training in these institutions. Q. The Medical Officer of the Battalion is a part of the unit? — A. Yes. Q. And the Medical Officer of the unit is under the control of the Colonel com- manding the battalion ? — A. Yes. Q. Now you would not have the Medical Service responsible to one Colonel in the unit, and the training of the men under the control of another Colonel? Both the Medical Officer and the officers in charge of the training of the men are responsible to the one Colonel? — A. Yes. Q. And single control is the essence of the regimental business, is it not? — A. Yes. Q. Then why should it not be so with regard to the returned soldiers? — A. I think it should; 1 would add to that the suggestion that the command of the Military Hos- pitals Commission should be under the General Officer Commanding the district, that is, that each individual unit of it should be under the officer commanding this district instead of being responsible to the central body at Ottawa. By the Chairman: Q. Instead of being under Colonel Sharpies, it should be under General Wilson? — A. Certainly. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Then your view is that it should be under the Militia Department? — A. That is my view. Q. Do you think it was possible to have had that arrangement in 1915, with respect to treating troops? — A. I think it was possible then. Q. To have gone ahead and dealt with it in that way?— A. That is my private view. Q. That it was wholly unnecessary to establish the Commission? — A. I have not all the facts — it was an unusual case, there was an emergency and possibly it was the best means of meeting that emergency; I am speaking now in the light of subsequent experience. Q. You are speaking now in the light of two years' knowledge, and applying that knowledge to the facts that you did not then have? — A. Yes. Q. You say at the present moment, there is no necessity for the Military Hospitals Commission to deal with the Hospitals? — A. They are of great assistance, and it is quite possible to make some provision by which they would be under the control oi the Militia Department. Q. And you think the work can be efficiently carried on without the Military Hospitals Commission at all? Mr. MiDDLEBRO : He said exactly the reverse. The Witness : I would like to have an opportunity of reading over my evidence. The Chairman: You will have a chance to read over your evidence. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You say it is your opinion at the present moment that the Military Hospitals. Commission is absolutely unnecessary? — A. If certain provisions are made it is not necessary. Q. In other words your view is that the creation of an institution to take control of the returned soldier, specially removed from the Department, is unnecessary? — A. Yes. ;Q. Having regard to the fact that the Department is political and the Com- mission is not? [Lieut.-Colonel F. S. Patch.] 416 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Hon. Mr. Murphy: Not the Militia Department, you do not mean that tlie Militia Department is political? Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : It does not follow that all Commissions are not political? By Mr. Pardee: Q. Your whole contention is that the Army Medical Corps could have been so expanded to take care of every part of the work that the Military Hospitals Cora- mission was established for? — A. That is my idea. Q. The Army Medical Corps could have done all that work, if it had been properly expanded? — A. Yes, that is my opinion. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. I understood you to say that while you thought in the first instance that the Army Medical Corps could have accomplished all the work that the Military Hospitals Commission has done, yet, you think, in view of the fact that the Military Hospitals Commission has been in existence two years, it would be a mistake now, to stop it entirely ? — A. I do. Q. Because they have specialized along these lines, you advocate retaining the Military Hospitals Commission in ^ iew of the work of re-education of convalescent patients? — A. Along the lines that I understand were laid down by the Minister of Militia, m a recent interview. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Have you any difiiculty in filling up the Army Medical Corps in this District — in obtaining medical officers? — A. We do have difficulty, of course. Q. You cannot get as many as you need? — A. Not for overseas service, and we would have to take in civil practitioners to look after the returned. soldiers unless some of the medical men who have gone overseas are brought back. Q. Supposing the Medical Corps were expanded so as to take up the. work of the Hospitals Commission, how would they obtain a supply of medical officers? — A. We have the same opportunities as the Military Hospitals Commission. Q. Then you would employ civilians? — A. Undoubtedly. Q. In that case these men would not belong to the Army Medical Corps, and it would not be the Army Medical Corps doing the work? — A. Yes, you could give these men rank, or employ them as civilian surgeons, that is a matter of detail to be worked out. Q. The reason I spoke about that was Colonel Marlow in his evidence rather com- plained that the Military Hospitals Commission employed the civilian doctors at a greater salary than I think, even himself was getting as A.D.M.S. He objected to that? — A. I would also. Q. And his remark was to the effect that if the Army Medical Corps had command of that it would not be done ? — A. I would certainly obj/ect to that if another man doing the same work as I was were getting bigger pay than I received. Q. How could they avoid that if they had to employ civilian doctors? — A. Eates of pay should be created for the employment of civilian surgeons. Q. Supposing you could not get them? — A. I think you could get them. If the need arises for medical men, it will be met, it is not a matter of dollars and cents. By the Chairman: Q. As far as No. 4 District you think you could get all the medical men you need at the rates of pay of the Army Medical Corps? — A. Yes — but the pay is not large enough, that of course is understood. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Do the men now employed all enter the Army Medical Corps or do they con- tinue in private practice? — A. They are employed as military men, under a recent tLieut.-Colonel F. S. Patch.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 417 circular letter which permits a man to engage in civil practice. If he works more than six hours a day he receives full pay and allowances; if he works less than 6 hours a day, he is paid the pay of the rank. By Hon. Air. Murphy: Q. In enumerating the reasons for the number of rejections which took place at a certain period, you mentioned this morning two; one the anxiety on the part of the Commanding Officer to get men, and the other the inexperience of the medical exam- iners in some instances. Are there any other reasons you wish to mention, I think you were interrupted? — A. My views on that point are contained in the report of a Board of Enquiry of the 118th Overseas Battalion. In that report my views are expressed and that report is, I think, available to you. By Air. Aliddlehro: Q. Would you agree with the evidence given by Lieut.-Col. Marlow, on p. 227, as follows: (Reads) Q. Can you suggest any reason why the Military Hospitals Commission was created if the work could be better carried on by the Army Medical Corps? Somebody must have thought the Commission necessary? — A. Well, I could suggest a reason. I do not know how far it is true, but the one that appeals to me more than anything else is that it was a matter of unloading at the time. Q. Unloading what? — A. Unloading work from the Militia Department which it should ordinarily have done, but because at that time it was par- ticularly busy with many other matters that were pressing, the idea of a Com- mission was conceived, and the matter was unloaded. Q. You are of the opinion that, owing to the amount of work in the Militia Department, they thought it was necessary to give the work to the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. To create something else to handle this big prob- lem. Q. Do you agree with that ? — A. I do agree, to a certain extent. That is 'as far as the administrative authorities were concerned. The care of the returned soldiers is not merely a medical problem, it is administrative as well. Q. The Commission came to be created because the Army Medical Corps was so congested with work that it could not handle the men returning from overseas? — A. I think it was the administrative; I do not think it is Army Medical at all. Q. But Col. Marlow refers to the Army Medical Corps, and therefore the ^Military Hospitals Commission was established. Is that not true of your district^ — A. No, sir. We had our connnand arranged to handle casualties just the same ii, in Military District No. 2. Witness discharged. Lieutenant-Colonel CLARE^XE F. Smith, Chairman of the Relief Committee of the Patriotic Fund and Member of the Military Hospitals Commission, called, sworn, and examined. By the Chairman: Q. Are you the Chairman of the Military Hospitals Commission of this locality? — A. We have no chairman here. Q. You have a a local committee, then, so to speak? — A. Yes; Mr. Smeaton White, Dr. F. J. Shepherd. Mr. D. Lome McGibbon, Hon. Rodolphe Forget, and myself. Q. You are members of the National Military Hospitals Commission? — A. Yes. 28277—27 [Lieut.-Col. C. F. Smith.] 418 SI*ECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. And your meetings are held at Ottawa? — A. Yes. Q. And you have no local unit? — A. Local questions are taken up with the local members here, and are forwarded on to Ottawa. Q. What staff have you here, and where is your office? — A. We have two offices in the Drummond Building; we pay $50 a month rent; we have a secretary whom we pay $75 a month, and a stenographer whom we pay $60 a month. Q. Is that all the staff that comes directly under you? — A. There is the vocational, officer, who has charge of Quebec and the eastern section of the Lower Provinces, Prof. Sexton, whose salary is $183.50 a month. He looks after all the eastern section. Q. What medical men have you under your direction? — A. We have no medical men that I know of. Q. What duties specially fall upon the quintette of members that you have men- tioned as belonging to the Military Hospitals Commission in this district? — A. Supplying homes, the vocational end, and anything dealing -with the returned soldiers. Q. Their medical treatment as well? — A. No, that has been under the A.D.M.S. of the Division. Q. You might tell us what hospitals you have, Avhat their accommodation is, and what measures you have taken for additional accommodation? — A. At the present time we have the Grey Nuns Convalescent Home, which has a capacity for 300. It has been used for convalescent soldiers, but is now equipped as a bed hospital for active treatment and surgical cases as well. We have there at the present time 229 patients —leaving 71 unoccupied beds. We also secured the Drummond Street property, and have completed it and expected to open it this week, but we are waiting for kitchen equipment, shipped from Toronto early in February, and which has not arrived yet. We have accommodation for 200 there. Then we have the Khaki League Convalescent Homes, two homes, with accommodation for 99, and we have 95 patients in them now,"leaving four unoccupied beds. That leaves 275 in these three homes in Montreal, and we also have accommodation, if necessary, for bed cases, active treatment and surgical cases, in the Eoyal Victoria and General Hospitals. By Mr. Pardee: Q. How many vacant beds have you at present? — A. We have 275 beds to-day available in our three homes. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. How many beds are occupied? — A. We have 325 occupied. By the Chairman: Q. 325 occupied and 275 available, in fact you have a total accommodation of 600 beds in these local hospitals? — A. In Montreal. Q. What steps are you taking to enlarge that accommodation? — A. We have three options at the present time, offering to us one large building accommodating one thousand, with about forty acres of ground. Q. Where is that located? — A. About 5 miles from the Windsor Hotel. The building is completed on the outside. Q. It is in the country? — A. Yes, sir. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. At Maisonneuve?— A. No, at Cote des Liesse Road. It belongs to the Grey Nuns, it is completed on the outside, and it is offered to us if we will complete it on the inside, and there are about 40 acres of ground. Q. It will accommodate about one thousand? — A. About a thousand; and we can also build as many hut hospitals as we want. [Lieut. -Col. C. F. Smith.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AXD RE-EDUCATION 419 By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. What will be the cost to complete the building?— A. About $200,000. We have under option an educational building that the people are leaving at the present time to go to a new building, it will hold 600. By the Chairman: Q. What building is that? — A. At Maisonneuve. They are asking $10,000 a year for it and it will probably cost us $50,000 or $75,000 to renovate. Q. It is an old building requiring adaptation? — A. Yes, and there are about 40 acres of ground about the building where we can also put up extra huts if needed. We have also a letter quoting us on a 1,500-bed and hut hospital at a price of $275,000 with the land, Avhich would be completed they claim in ninety days. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. For use in the summer only? — A. All the year round. Q. They are all situated in Montreal? — A. All those three are. By the Chairman: Q. You have recently taken over the Loyola College? — A. Yes. Q. What accommodation have you there? — A. 200. Q. Is it occupied yet? — A. On Monday. The headquarters staff are there at the present time — the beds, bedding, etc., are complete, with the exception of the kitchen equipment delayed in transit between Toronto and Montreal. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. This is an institution you mentioned before? — A. Yes, sir. By the Chairman: Q. Have you any idea as to how many men may be expected back from month to month in the early future whom you will have to take care of ?— A. It is very difficult to say. I have not heard how many were expected back, but the average is about 10 per cent of the men come back to Montreal. Q. Ten per cent of the total number of men coming back? — A. Yes. Q. What have you averaged per month? — A. There are 1,200 men coihih^ back this week, 120 of them will probably be for our district. '' '; Q. Do you know whether, in sending men back, the matter of distribiitiori 'is considered at all in preparing the shipload? Is there any consideration on the other side to give you that 10 per cent? — A. No, I don't think so. . , Q. Not that you know of? — A. Not that I know of. Q. You have had on an average then, I should judge, about a hundred a month coming back? — A. We have had 1,500 cases come back to us since Q. Since the spring of 1915? — A. Yes. At least, we have had 1,891 report to us. Previous to that we have no record. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. How many have been discharged? — A. One thousand six hundred and twenty- one have been discharged. We have at the present time only about 208 overseas in-patiouts in Montreal and 62 overseas out-patients in our homes. Q. Have you any cases of soldiers who were discharged as cured who have found out afterwards that their health has not enabled them to work? — A. A few. Q. How many? — A. Not very many. Most of them we have been able to put back in the hospital again. Q. Are these cases due to shell shock or tuberculosis? — A. Some tuberculosis. Some men refused treatment, and after talking the matter over with them they decided to go back, and we sent them back. Others had misbehaved themselves and were sent away. We got them sent back or sent to another sanitarium. 28277—27* [Lieut.-Col. C. F. Smith.] 420 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. Are the members of your Commission responsible for the directions as to dis- cipline, etc., of the men in the Grey Nuns and other hospitals under your direction? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you had any complaints from the men at the Grey Nuns regarding the hours of leave that are granted to them? — A. Not altogether from the men, no, from outsiders. Q. What are the hours within which men of the Grey Nuns Hospital can go out if they want to? — A. They have a walking parade of an hour in the morning, and jinother of an hour in the afternoon, and I think they leave at 5 o'clock at night until 10.30 p.m. Q. Then during the day, with the exception of one hour, they are detained in the convalescent home? — A. Not all of them. A great many of them ask for special passes, and if granted by the medical officers the officer commanding gives them the pass. Q. What are the hours on Saturday and Sunday? — A. They practically get out, I think most of them, Saturday afternoon and Sunday. There are very few there on Sunday. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. What do the convalescent men do? — A. We have vocational training at the present time. We were to have it at the Grey Nuns, but we did not have the space there, but through the kindness of McGill University and the Technical Institute on Sherbrooke street we are now giving them vocational training in both institutes. About 100 men are taking the training in those institutes. Q. That is an institute under the Quebec Government? — A. The Provincial Gov- ernment. They gave us two class-rooms and another large room 200 by 40 where we do our educational work. Q. Most of these men go back to their original trades ? — A. A great many of them do, and a great many have taken up a new trade, and some of them have done remark- ably well. I think it is the biggest thing we have. Before we had this training we had a lot of trouble, and now the men leave the convalescent homes at 9 and those that are able to walk are paraded to the institute, and those not able to walk are provided with a conveyance, and we bring them back to the home at 12, and back to the institute. and return again at 4, so that 100 of them are out getting the fresh air every day, and others are in there for treatment. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. What have you to say with regard to the complaints made outside as to the conduct of the men? — A. Well, the recreation room of the Grey Nuns, when we were doing the educational work, was occupying about a third of the space, and when we had about 225 men there complaints were made with regard to the smoke nuisance. That is taken care of by the vocational work being done outside, and a third of the room being added to the recreation room. We have also got a room for the non-smokers, and the Drummond Street Home will be opened Monday and that will take a large percentage of the men away. Q. I understood you to say that complaints came in from outsiders in regard to the leave the men had? — A. About not allowing the men out in the day. Q. Not sufficiently?— A. Yes- Q. You allowed them out an hour in the morning? — A. Yes, and 5 until half past 10. Q. And all Saturday afternoon and Sunday? — A. Yes, Saturday afternoon and Sunday they get a pass. Most of the married men get a pass. By the Chairman: Q. Would your experience cause you to favour a smaller number of large hospitals or a larger number of small hospitals? In other words have the smaller homes taking [Lieut. -Col. C. F. Smith.] RECEPTIOy, TRExiTMENT AND RE-EDl' CATION 421 20, 30 and 40 people been satisfactory ?— A. Not at the present time. At the beginning they did very good work. Now the difficulty is in giving medical attendance. We can handle probably 200 patients just as cheaply as if we had 40 or 50. Q. What do you consider the proper size of a convalescent hospital for the best treatment of the men ?— A. 150 to 200. Q. You think they can be handled better in groups accommodating from one to two hundred than in smaller groups ? — A. Very much better. Q. What do you think about the relative value to the men of an hospital in the city and an hospital out in the country? — A. I think for surgical cases and bed treat- ment that the city is very much better, because you can get expert advice from the doctors who are very busy at the present time, and for the ordinary convalescent home, I think it is much preferable outside the city, where there is lots of ground, where we can do a little agricultural and vegetable gardening, and so on. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. It is proposed to have homes of that kind in this district? — A. Yes. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. What is the character of the vocational training chiefly ? — A. Carpentry, mechanical drawing, English, French, book-keeping, motor mechanics, stenography and typewriting. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Who does the teaching of these? Have you teachers employed for that? — A. In Montreal we have special teachers employed. By the Chairman: Q. I suppose Mr- Sexton will give us the details? — A. Yes. Q. Is that all you wish to say with regard to that matter? — A. That is practically all unless you want to know whom we are employing as teachers in this district. The Chairman : If you have any statistics which you think would be of use to the committee we would be very glad to have them incorporated in our proceedings. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What about the hospitals in England and in France? — A. The hospitals in use in England and France for the last couple of years are wooden hospitals one or two stories high, which are not as expensive as stone or brick, and they can be put up in very much less time. Q. How many will they accommodate? — A. I think they run in sections of 100. They can put up 100 in the building. Q. You say they want $200,000. Is there any idea of the commission taking that over? — A. Nothing has been decided on either of those three problems. Q. You spoke of one hospital costing $200,000, and the other, you said, on Drummond street? — A. No, not on Drummond street, outside five or six miles. Q. At $275,000?— A. Yes. Q. Would it be necessary to consider spending that much money for a con- valescent home? — A. I think the commission has probably been a little slow in not going ahead and spending money. They have tried to keep it as low as possible. Q. Do you think an expenditure of $475,000 is necessary for the class of con- valescent homes you want? — A. No. Q. You gave the committee one at $200,000, somewhere, that they offered you if you would complete it ? — A. Yes. Q. And then another on Drummond street at $275,000? — A. Those are options on different properties we have. We would only need one of those three options that I mention. [Lieut.-Col. C. F. Smith.] 422 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. With reorard to your l.OOO-bcd hospital, which you mention ? — A. There is a figure on the $275,000 for 1,500. We figured l.OOO-bed hospital would co>t us $200,000. Q. Where do the funds for the carrying out of this work come from? — A. Through the Governor General in Council and the War Loan, I think it is. By the Chairman: Q. On whom do you draw for the money ? — A. It comes through the Commission. Q. Where do you send your account? — A. We send our accounts up to Ottawa to the Accountant. Q. To the Accountant of the Hospitals Commission? — A. Yes. Q. Are those placed in the hospitals considered as military patients? — A. Yes, they are under military control. The Chairman: I think General Wilson stated that the militia were the only body authorized to make expenditures for the hospital. I think he made that state- ment in his evidence this morning. They have the power to make similar expendi- tures for the care of the men to which you have. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Are the orders of the Commission subject to Orders in Council for the pay- ment? — A. Yes. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. You spoke about an hospital you desired to have? — A. Yes. Q. These men are soldiers who are physically unfit, and the desire is to cure them in the first place, and then train them for some occupation by which they could earn their living? — A. Yes. Q. Supposing you had an hospital for 1,000 men in that condition, how would you deal with them? Would you send them away to smaller hospitals to get their vocational training? — A. Well, we give them the vocational training while they are in the hospital. Q. You would take care of 1,000 men in the large hospital? — A. Yes. Q. I think you said 200 would be a small size? — A. That is a minimum. Q. But you could not take care of a thousand men in this hospital? — A. Yes, because all the men do not have vocational training, only a certain percentage. Q. What would be the staff of an hospital of that sort? — A. I am sorry I could not tell you. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. You have 275 patients here, and have still available beds for 325? — A. Yes. Q. You have an offer of a convalescent home at ^faisonneuve at a probable expenditure of $65,000, whereby you could get 600 beds more. That would double your accommodation? — A. Yes. Q. That would be 1,200 beds altogether ?— A. Yes. Q. At the present time do you know whether or not you have had accommodation for every soldier that has been returned to you? — A. Yes, we have more than enough. Q. Can you suggest to the Committee anything that we can recommend or do wdth a view to improving the condition of the returned soldier reasonably and at a reasonable cost? — A. Well there are a great many things. The man who is discharged receives 15 days' pay as an allowance, and then he is sent down to the Provincial Employment Bureau to secure a position. I hardly think it is long enough for some of the men. A great many of them are a;ll right, but I think at least a month's allowance should be given the men so as to give them a chance. By the Chairman: Q. Do you think that the Patriotic Fund should continue its assistance to' the family beyond the date of the discharge of the soldier? — A. I do, sir. ILieut.-Col. C. F. Smith.] RECEPTION, TREAT MEST AND RE-EDUCATIOX 423 By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) . Q. How long? — A. A month I should say. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. He should get it as though he wci*e not discharged, for a month to enable iiini to get on his feet? — A. Yes. All men who are discharged receive two weeks' pay and allowance. '>Vo give him a chaace to get on his feet. Q. You were going to say something else? — A. That is another point. A great many of the men — under 20 per cent — have a hard time — it is very hard on some of them, and that point should be taken up by the Pensions Board. By Mr. Ross ( Middle se.v) : Q. They get a gratuity now? — A. Some do and some do not. It is a small gratuity— $50. Q. You think every man, whether he gets a large gratuity or a small one, should be paid a month's separation allowance, and that the Patriotic Fund payment should continue for one month to help him get on his feet? — A. Yes. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You mean less the amount of pension he may receive? — A. We give his pay ri^ht up to the pension. That is where we had our trouble before. By the Chairman: Q. You feel that whatever complaints there have been in Montreal have iim a (iue to the too sudden cutting off of all financial assistance where men have been dis- ' charged from your hospitals? — A. Yes, we have had a lot of trouble that way. Q. With the returned soldiers who have not succeeded in getting jobs or who have not succeeded in holding jobs, immediately upon being discharged? — A. Yes; and then we have the man who is not very strong, for whom it is very difficult to procure work. A man who has had sihock cannot go near a factory where there is any noise. It is difficult to pick out a position that will suit him. Those are the cases we liave. Q. You think the Government pay and allowance and the Patriotic Fund where necessary should be continued for a longer time than they are, notwithstanding the fact that the man draws a pension? — A. Yes. Well, the pay would continue until the pension was given. Q. Supposing the pay is 20 per cent and the pension is $8 a month, do you think a man who is only getting an $8 pension should be ineligible for any further assistance from other sources? — A. I think he should get it. Q. A discharge with an $8 pension is almost as bad as being discharged without anything? — A. We have had some difficulty with men coming back with artificial limbs, their legs cut off below the knees, and these men have a $1G pension. Now, one man had three or four children and it probably would take him quite a long while to get used to that leg. Q. And no pension is given at present for children if a man has less than 60 per cent disability? — A. Xo. and all that man would have to live on would be $1C a month. Q. Would you favour a payment for children following on down to the 40 and 20 per cent disability pensions? — A. I think that in a great many cases it would be advisable. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Would you not think Col. Smith, taking it by and large, that in all cases that oucht to be so? — A. Yes, I think it would be better. [Lieut.-Col. C. F. Smith.] 424 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. For example, here is the Pension Commissioners' present scale of pension. I£ a man has three children and he belongs to Class 1 or Class 2 or Class 3, the three children, according to the pension, will each get $G a month. That would be $18 for the three children. Would you not think it would be better if the payments were: Class 1, $6, Class 2, $5, Class 3, $4, Class 4, $3, Class 5, $2. That is, grade down so as to go as far as the lowest classes? — A. Well, in a great many cases you have this result; in the case of the man I spoke of, with the artificial limb, he was unable to do anything, practically, it took him a long while to get used to the limb. In the mean- time he had a wife and four or five children who were only receiving $16. If you made a grading down so as to give $2 for his four children that would only be $& more, or $24 a month. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Not in that case? As I understand it you provide some payment if the man is being trained? — A. Yes, if he is being trained. Q. So that if a man is being trained a certain amount is paid to him by the Com- mission? — A. Yes. Q. He is discharged and gets a pension, and is re-enlisted on the civil side? — ^A. Yes, in the case of a man who is being trained, but this man I allude to is not. Q. I want to ask you, on Mr. Marcil's suggestion, about the case of a man who is discharged, gets a pension and goes out to work. Unfortunately he develops symp- toms that prevent him from further continuance in his occupation, directly traceable to injuries he received in the war. Can that man go back to the hospital under the new regulations? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What about his pay and allowance? — A. He goes back on pay and allowances. Q. Would there be any difficulty in his getting back on the Patriotic Fund? — A. No, the Patriotic Fund is the easiest thing to arrange. If the Government was as easy as the Patriotic Fund it would be a very good thing. Q. Is there not a danger of certain delays arising? — A. Yes, there have been. Q. Have there been any cases in which there have been a very great deal of fric- tion ? — A. This is one of the big troubles we have : A man in England is about to be • discharged. His wife, in Montreal, receives a letter one day from the Government to the effect that her husband is now discharged in England. She has been receiving an allowance and assigned pay. The man may not come over to Canada for two or three months. In the meantime, his wife and children in Canada are without any money except what the Patriotic Fund grants. Q. The new Order in Council has to some extent overcome that difficulty? — A. Yes, but that is where the man is discharged in Canada. If the man is discharged in England he does not get his pension until he arrives here. Q. As I understand it, the soldier's pay goes on under the new Order in Council until the first pension cheque comes in? — A. The trouble there, I think is, that if a man is discharged to Canada, for one reason or the other By the Chairman: Q. Do not use the word " discharged." What you mean is that his account with the paymaster in England was closed, without his account with the paymaster in Canada being opened at the same time? — A. That is the expression used in the letter, that the man is " Discharged to Canada." Q. But that simply means that his account in England was closed. The trouble has been that, at the time when the paymaster's account in England was closed, an account was not opened at the same time with the paymaster in Canada, and there would sometimes be a hiatus of a couple of months? — A. Yes. The Chairman : But under the new Order in Council the assigned pay and separa- tion allowance goes on right up to the time that man actually receives his cheque for [Lieut. -Col. C. F. Smith.] RECEPTIOX, TREAT M EXT AND RE-EDVCATION 425 pension. The man Colonel Smith refers to is a man leaving England as a con- valescent, we will say, but his account has not been opened up here in Canada, while he may be in hospital for six months. The difficulty has been that there has been a gap between the closing of one account and the opening of another. Mr. Bennett: And the new Order in Council meets that case. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. Here is a case I would like to ask your opinion upon, with regard to our system of pensions; those of our injured who have been permanently incapacitated less than 20 per cent get no monthly allowance at all; the most that can be given them is a gratuity of not exceeding $100. Do you think that a man who is injured permanently to the extent of 19 per cent of his former efficiency should receive at the very most only $100, while the man who is injured 20 per cent permanently gets $100 a year for life? — A. I think it is very unfair. Q. We had the case of a man who is injured less than 20 per cent, but he was injured to such an extent that he could not resume his former occupation, and he got nothing except a little gratuity. What do you think of that, is it fair? — A. I do not think so. We have a dozen cases of that kind where men whose injury was less than 20 per cent could not return to the same occupation as before. Q. You think that in such cases the men should be granted a reasonable amount of pension, especially if the injury is of such a permanent nature as to prevent him from Carrying on his former occupation? — A. I certainly think so. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Is there any difference between the amount of allowance given this year, and the amount given the year before, by reason of the increased cost of living? — A. The allowance is about the same as last year; at the present time we are giving them a small increase owing to the high cost of living. Q. But is the Government increasing the pension on account of the high cost of living? Do you know what the difference is between the cost of living now and what it used to be? — A. I do not know exactly, but I know it is very large; 20 per cent here. The Chairman : I may say that the Patriotic Fund Committee is considering that question, and, in a number of instances, are increasing the amount on account of the high cost of living. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. The reason I put that question is that I had a man in my riding who was discharged, and who was given $25, as he was certified as being injured less than 20 per cent. I put him on as a letter-carrier, and he was physically impaired to such extent that he could not even perform the duties of a letter-carrier. Do you think that is a fair proi>osition ? — ^A. No, I think that is a case that shoidd be taken up bj* the Pensions Board immediately. I think that in all these cases — something new is arising every day, and I think that the Order in Council will have to be changed. By the Chairman: Q. Do you wish to add anything more to your testimony in your capacity as Chair- man of the Relief Committee of the Patriotic Fund for Montreal? How many cases are you looking after at present ( — A. About 4,000 cases. Q. What is your monthly expenditure at present ?— A. $G2,000 or $63,000. Q. What is your average per family? — A. $16. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Did you mention 4.000 families or persons? — A. 4,000 families. [Lieut. -Col. C. F. Smith.] 426 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. They represent eleven or twelve thousand individuals? — A. A little over twelve thousand. Q. Have you any suggestions to offer to this Committee as far as the Patriotic Fund is concerned? — A. No, 1 tliink we have taken care of that by giving the slight increase. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. How much has that increase been? — A. The increase going into effect next, month will be about 10 per cent, sir. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You are serving the state voluntarily? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And the personnel of the Military Hospitals Commission in Montreal con- sists of whom? — A. Mr, Smeaton . White of the Gazette, Dr. Shepherd, who is a physician, Mr. D. Lome McGibbon, Sir Rodolphe Forget and myself. Q. What time do you give to this work, Col. Smith, what part of your time does this Hospitals Commission work absorb? — A. Practically all of it. Q. Is it not unfair to say that you are a commercial man in a large way in the city of Montreal, that is a fair statement? — A. Yes. The Chairman: When the war is not on. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You are giving your services voluntarily, as the other members of the Com- mission are doing? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. You spoke of building a hospital here for a thousand patients at a cost of $200,000. Was that hospital for active treatment cases or vocation re-education? — A. For convalescents. Q. Not for active treatment cases? — A. No, sir. Q. Would that be a hut hospital? — A. One of them would be a hut hospital; the other two buildings that we have been offered, one is a concrete building and the other a stone building, and any additions we make would be hut hospitals. There has been nothing decided as yet. These have been options given that will be brought before the authorities in a week or ten days. Q. I spoke of it because $200 a bed for a hospital was a very low charge? — A. Very low, sir. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Is there anything further you wish to suggest in the interest of the returned soldier that has not been covered in your examination, anytiiing that will benefit the men when they come back especially if disabled? — A. No, I think everything is pretty well covered regarding the hospitals; they are well looked after, also vocational train- ing and employment bureau. The Chairman: We will hear about those latter matters this afternoon from Hon. Mr. Simard. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. Do you find any difficulty in fixing the line of demarcation as to tlie authority over the patient between the Military Hospitals Commission and the Army Medical Corps? — A. Yes, a certain amount. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Where is the difficulty? — A. As a layman it is very difficult to say. There is a difference of opinion. [Lieut.-Col. C. F. Smith.] RECEPTIOy, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 427 By Mr. Sutherland : Q. Where do you find the greatest difficulty in that respect? There naturally must be some point where the authority clashes? — A. Yes. I think if the medical officer and the O.C. division would give and take a little more we would not have a great "deal of trouble with them. Q. You spoke about calling in expert medical advice as to certain patients? — A. Yes. Q. Does that come under your jurisdiction or the Army Medical Coriis? — A. The Army Medical Corps. The A.D.M.S. has always had supervision over the Hospitals Commission, and I do not think that there has been any change. There was supposed to have been a change. The Hospitals Commission was supposed to control the matter but it never went through so that the A.D.^l..'^. have had charge of it. By the Chairman: Q. Always? — A. Yes. Q. Has it worked satisfactorily? — A. Yes. By lion. Mr. Ross: ■ , Q. Is that embodied in the exercise of that control at all? — A. I do not think > . By the Chairman: Q. For example, who is responsible for the selection of say Captain Grey ? — Would it be Colonel Patch or the Hospitals Commission? — A. The A.D.]M.S., Lt.-Col. Patcli. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. There is some friction? — A. Not exactly friction. There has been a little mis- understanding because the A.D.M.S. did not know w;here it was at and the Hospitals Commission did not know where it was at and it has been patched up and things went along fairly smoothly in Montreal. Q. Have you any recommendation as to what should be done to make that satis- factory to all concerned? — A. No. Q- Does it impair the efficiency of the service? — A. No. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. While things may have gone on very smoothly in that regard, you can see where it is possible that friction might arise ? — A. Yes, we have tried to avoid all friction, Q. The patients have not suffered? — A. No. By the Chairman: Q. Do you think that is due to tlie good temper of these people or to the flexibility of the system ?— A. To both. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. You said that Dr. Grey was appointed under the Military Hospitals Commis- sion?— A. No, by the A.D.M-S. of the division. Q. I was going to say that Colonel Patch said he was under his control but I see he is down here as connected with your hospital? — A. He is the Medical officer in charge of the Grey Nuns. Q. Appointed by the Army Medical Corps?? — A. Yes. Q. Then he is not responsible to you for his work at all ? — A. Not exactly although he comes under us. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Stableness and control is always to be desired ? — A. Yes, I should say so. [Lieut.-Col. C. F. Smith.] 428 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. The statements you have prepared might be filed of record insofar as they are pertinent to the issue? — A. I will hand them in. Witness discharged. The Committee adjourned until 2.30 p.m. The Committee resumed at 2.48. Dr. F. J. Shepherd called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. Are you connected with McGill College? — A. I have retired from tl^at institu- tion and am now emeritus professor. Q. What position did you formerly occupy ? — A. Professor of Anatomy and Dean of the Medical Faculty. Q. You are now connected with the Montreal Hospital? — A. With both the Vic- toria and General Hospitals as consulting surgeon. Q. For how many years have you practised ? — A. Forty years. Q. Then your medical experience, Dr. Shepherd, would qualify you to have posi- tive opinion regarding the care and treatment of men coming back from the front, and this committee would very gladly hear anything you have to say, either by way of explanations, or criticism, or otherwise, regarding the returned soldiers' problem as you see it in your city? — A. I am a member of the Hospitals Commission and in that way have come in contact with these men off and on, but the Militia Department has absolute control of the medical side, and the Hospitals Commission has not had very much to say in regard to conditions of affairs which I have always objected to. I think the whole thing ought to be controlled either by the Military Hospitals Com- mission or by the Militia Department; there ought to be no divided authority. If the Hospitals Commission is providing for the rehabilitation of the returned soldiers it should have the treatment of them, and especially of the convalescent hospitals. I hold very strong views on that point. Q. Am I right, then, in concluding that you feel that both the medical and educational treatment of returned soldiers in this district should be under the charge of the Hospitals Commission? — A. The treatment should be under the one control. Q. Which? — A. I should prefer the Hospitals Commission, of course, but the Militia Department at present has the medical charge and the Hospitals Commission is really only an appendage of the Militia Department. Q. Why do you think the treatment of returned soldiers would be better under the Hospitals Commission? — A. Because a hospital with divided authority will be no good at all. I have had a good deal of experience in hospitals, and I know that divided authority is an utter failure. That has been the case here. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. I do not understand you to insist that the control should be under the Mili- tary Hospitals Commission? — A. No, I do not insist at all. Q. There should be either one organization and control, but only one. — A. The two are incompatible, I think. By the Chairman: Q. Do you think the treatment accorded to returned soldiers in this district has been less efficient than it would have been on that account, and that anybody has suffered by reason of the existing condition of affairs? — A. It is very hard to say. I have not entered enough into the details of the treatment to know. As far as I can see the treatment has been fairly efficient, but as the work grows in magnitude it will be much more difficult to obtain efficiency with divided authority. I think there is [Dr. F. J. Shepherd.] RECEPTIOX, rHEATilEXr AXD RE-EDUCATION 429 one thing which can be safely said with regard to hospitals: The Hospitals Commis- sion can appoint the most suitable men to certain positions, whereas with the Militia Department that is not always the case. The question of seniority enters into an appointment, and other considerations come in. There is a tremendous amount of red tape, a thing the Hospitals Commission is trying to get rid of. Q. You agree then that the Hospitals Commission has had a freer hand A. Yes, a much freer hand. Q, Than the Army Medical Corps? — A. A much freer hand and less prejudice too. Q. Have you ever had any experience of the other system in its operation? — A. Do you mean the control by the Militia Department? Q. Yes? — ^A. I do not want to criticize the Militia Department, it has done its best. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. You have never been connected with the Army Medical Corps? — A. No, I have never served in the Army Medical Corps. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. Can you give us any suggestions for the betterment of the returned soldier apart that dealing with divided authority? — A. I think special means will have to be provided for the treatment of special cases, and special hospitals will have to be instituted for special cases. That is only partially done now. I think the orthopaedic side is going to be a very important one. There is an Orthopaedic Hospital in Toronto, which is going to be a very good institution. Q. Do you think it will be necessary to establish such a hospital in Montreal? — A. When enough cases present themselves I think it will be very desirable. It should be placed under skilled men who are specialists in that department. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. You spoke of divided authority and of the control exercised by the Militia Department. Will you explain what you mean? — A. The Militia Department has the control of the medical side of the work. Q. Will you give us a practical illustration of what you mean by that? — A. It is very hard to give an actual case, but there is one example which happened the other day at the Grey Nuns Convalescent Home. I reported the case at the time but I do not know whether it should be mentioned here. I visited the top flat with the Doctor in Charge and came to a room where there were 25 tuberculous patients. The Doctor said he did not know anything about it, he said the matter rested with the Officer Commanding the Military District. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. What is it the Doctor did not know? — A. He did not know these tuberculous patients were there. By the Chairman: Q. At which hospital was that? — A- The Grey Xuns Convalescent Home. Q. When did it occur? — A. About a month ago, I should think. Q. Did the Doctor not know the men were tuberculous? — A. He did not know anything about the men at all. He said it was the O.C.'s business; he had put them there without his knowledge. By Brigadier- General Mason : Q. I understand that army doctors treat the patients as well as civilian doctors ?— A. It depends on the medical man, you cannot make a general statement. Q. Who regulates the doctors who treat the patients? — A. Are you referring tc the Militia Department? [Dr. F. J. Shepherd.] 430 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. To botli the ]Militia Department and the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. Well, we have not had any directly under ns yet. The Military Hospitals, Com- mission has not appointed anybody. The Military Hospitals Commission has never assumed control of the medical side. It wished to, but the Militia Department would not second the officers. Q. How does it come about that the Military Doctors go into the Hospitals? — A. They were sent there originally. You see, the Militia Department has always had charge of the Hospitals. Q. And then the Military Hospitals Commission came in afterwards? — A. The Military Hospitals Commission was trying to get away from the old procedure but it has not succeeded. 3y Mr. Sutherland: Q. Once a soldier enlists he is under the control and management of the Militia Department. How can that control be delegated to a body such as the Military Hos- pitals Commission? — A. That was arranged for by having \hese hospital units with Colonel "Sharpies in charge of the whole organization or command, whatever the right term is. Each Division has a Commanding Officer for disciplinary purposes. Q. But as a matter of fact the soldier is under the control of the Militia Depart- ment until he is discharged? — A. He is practically under the Militia Department's charge, but if he is in the Medical Service he can be under the charge of any medical man who knows his business, I should think. We want to do the best we can for the returned soldier, that is the principal thing. Bij Mr. Middlehro: Q. I would like to follow up a little the statement you made with respect to tuber- culous patients in the Grey Nuns Hospital. — A, Very good. Q. Where did those tuberculous patients come from? — A. Some of them were men who were awaiting discharge from the Ste. Agathe Sanitorium, they refused to take further treatment. Others were going to that Institution for a time, and others, again, were probably insubordinate cases. Q. Who was treating these men? — A. Nobody was treating them. As I say, som« were awaiting discharge and others were waiting to go to Ste. Agathe. but they were under the Officer Commanding, not under the control of a doctor. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Was no medical treatment given to them at all? — A. Nothing at all was done for them. They were kept there until transferred to some other place. I do not think the medical officer knew anything about it, he was not told anything aTiout it. Q. Did the men get into the hospital without the doctors knowing anything about it? — A. I believe so. However, he himself will be able to tell you about that. By the Chairman: Q. To whom do you refer? — A. Captain Grey. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. From your experience as a medical man, do you think that it is in the best interests of the returned soldier himself that the control of these hospitals should be vested in the Military Hospitals Commission, or would control by the Militia Depart- ment be preferable? — A. I think control by the Military Hospitals Commission would be better. Q. Can you give us any particular reason? — A. The Commission is supposed to be a non-political organization for one thing. Furthermore, they have no traditions to maintain, there is not so much red tape associated with it. and it has a much freer hand. [Dr. F. J. Shepherd.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 431 ' By Hon. Mr. Murphy : Q. Like the late Mr. Tarte, you would make your own precedents? — A. Yes, make our own precedents. Another thinf? is with regard to the appointment of medical men. The idea was to employ medical men for this work who had been abroad and had served for a year or 18 months in hospitals in France or England and had per- formed good service there. A number of these medical men have returned to Canada and are quite willing to do any service they can for the returned soldiers. It is obvious that such medical men would be of great value because they are used to the soldiers and understand exactly the kind of work involved. . By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Would such medical men be members of the Army iledical Corps? — A. Yes, let me instance Doctor Keenan, Doctor Archibald and Doctor Hill of Montreal, Doctor Primrose and Doctor liyerson of Toronto, and others. They have all been at the front and are willing to do all they can for the returned soldiers. By lion. Mr. Mar ell: Q. And are they not being employed now? — A. Xot by the Militia Department. They have returned to their private practices. Q. How were these appointments made by the Militia Department? — A. I do not know anything about appointments by the Militia Department. By Brigadier-General Mason:- Q. Colonel Marlow, giving evidence the other day said the trouble arose chiefly from the fact that some of the Army Medical Corps Officers were seconded and others were not seconded, and there was divided authority. Kow, in the case of the medical men who were seconded, would they be taken away from Military control? — A. They would be under the control of the Military Hospitals Commission altogether, except in regard to discipline. By Mr. Bennett: Q. I am going to ask you a question or two a9 to your qualifications. The mem- bers of the Committee now present are perfectly aware of them, but there are other members of Parliament who may not be, therefore I wished to have this evidence placed on the record. I understood you to say that you have been actively engaged in the practice of your profession in this city for many years? — A. About forty years. Q. And during a great part of that time you were connected with McGill Univer- sity? — A. Yes. I was also surgeon to the General Hospital. Q. You were Dean of the Medical Faculty of ]\rcGill for some years? — A. Yes. Q. Then I think you were consulting surgeon to one of the Montreal Hospitals, or perhaps two? — A. I was consulting surgeon to Victoria Hospital and Senior Attend- ing Surgeon to the General Hospital for many years. Q. And you are, like the rest of those who are serving upon this Hospitals Com- mission, giving your services to the country at the present time? — A. Yes. Q. And in the light of your experience you are of the opinion, as a medical man, that singleness of control will achieve the best results for the returned soldiers? — A. Certainly. Q. You have not undertaken to speak with authority with regard to the other branch of the work, but on the medical side of it you speak with authority, naturally ? — A. Yes. Q. And your view is, without discussing the reason for that opinion, that both the medical and institutional work should be under the control of one authority? — A. Certainly. I have no doubt at all about it. Q. And, speaking as a citizen, in the interests of the soldiers, and in the light of your experience, your opinion is tlint a non-political commission can do better work [Dr. F. J. Shepherd.] 432 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—KETURy ED SOLDIERS than a political department, however well it may be administered, that is your view? — A. Yes. Q. In the light of your experience that would be your opinion before you went on this Military Hospitals Commission at all? — A. Certainly, it should be under the con- trol of the Commission. Q. And in the light of what you have seen as a member of the Military Hospitals Commission you have not up to date seen any reason to change your opinion^ — A. N'one whatever, it is in fact stronger. Q. And having regard to the future operations, and to the increase in the number of men that must come back, singleness of control is of very great importance ? — A. Yes. Q. And you base that opinion on four grounds, as I understand you. The first ground is that under the Military Hospitals Commission you will be able, iincircum- scribed by regulation or otherwise, to employ the men best fitted to deal with the medi- cal situation at that particular point. That is a fact? — A. Yes. Q. And, as I take it, secondly you say that you would be able to pay that man what his services might be worth, having regard to the character of the work which had to be carried on? — A. The question of remuneration is some factor, but not entirely the guiding factor; men have offered to do it for nothing. Q. Thirdly, the Commission, as such, would have control over these men and would be able to dispense with their services at any time you saw fit without regard to military regulation? — A. Yes. Q. And another ground, and your last, is that fitness for the position, apart alto- gether from seniority, or what you designated as red tape, in a general sense would be the guiding factor in employing men for the hospital work, and not any other consider- ation? — A. That would be very important. Q. Is it not so that the returned soldier presents a rather difficult case in medicine more so than any other class of men, having regard to the condition of his nerves? — A. In many cases, yes. Q. And in dealing with it from a medical standpoint, if you are going to achieve the best results regarding that, is that what you mean when speaking of the desirability of being able to employ medical men fitted, by reason of their peculiar experience, they being specialists, or otherwise, to take charge of such institutions? — A. Yes, men who know their job and who have general experience in hospital work. Q. And in the Army Medical Corps you have to take them as they come regardless of those qualifications in a sense? — A. Yes, as far as I know I am only speaking now from what I have heard. Q. That is your observation? — A. Yes. Q. In the Commission you are able to command the advice and assistance of men who are experts as distinguished from a purely political department? — A. Yes, that is what I mean. Witness discharged. Mr. Arthur E. Doble, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. You are President of the Khaki League, are you? — A. Yes. Q. When was that formed? — A. In February, 1915. Q. What are its objects? — A. Eather broad — they are the general welfare of the soldiers. Q. The returned soldiers, or the enlisted soldiers? — A. Both. Q. Do you specialize, or is it all classes of soldiers? — A, All classes of soldiers. [Mr. A. R Doble.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 433 Q. Do you take in anything except the Expeditionary Force, past and present? — A. You mean Q. Do you take in the Home Service men ? — A. Well, we do not have many Home Service men who have grievances. Q. Now, as President of the Khaki League and doing very valuable work here in setting up clubs, will you give the committee the benefit of your suggestions and criticisms as to what can be done to make the soldiers' lot a more happy one, as far as this district is concerned? By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. What is the object sought in the promotion of the League? — A. Possibly I had better give the committee a brief history of the League; I will make it as short as possible. The League was formed two years ago, when it became apparent that some organization to look after the soldiers, some unofficial organization, was neces- sary. It was in the early days of recruiting and after the first camp at Valcartier closed men came back to the city for the winter and there were various complaints coming in that the newly recruited men were going to undesirable places. Early in the year 1915 the Local Council of Women called a general meeting to discuss what should be done. It was suggested that there should be clubs formed on the lines of the Union Jack Clubs in England, but we could not find out just then what the authorities wanted. Some officers wanted recreation rooms in their barracks, and others did not want them there, but wanted them outside, and between the two nothing was accomplished until the meeting was called by the Local Council of Women. I went down to Ottawa, saw Sir Sam Hughes, and told him all the various difficulties we had experienced in getting started. I asked him if we could get some general charter under which to work, and he said " God bless you, anything you can do for the boys will be acceptable to me." We immediately organized a Khaki Club. The object of that club was to take the men off the street, to provide recreation and re- freshment for them, and to do anything we could to enable them to pass their leisure hours pleasantly. We also looked forward to the time when some of our men would be coming back to us wounded. There was also a demand at the time for a con- valescent home, for the recruits who were convalescing in hospital. By the Chairman : Q. Pardon me interrupting you, but as far as possible we would like you to con- fine your remarks to the relations of your organization to the returned soldiers. We are not interested in those who do not go overseas. — A. I am coming to that im- mediately, Sir. We, therefore, established a Khaki Convalescent Home, on Belmont Park, in premises which were formerly the Andrew's Immigration Home, and we equipped it and organized a stall' of voluntary aid nurses, and that, I believe, was the first home in Canada which was organized for returned soldiers. This was before the organization of the Military Hospitals Commission. When the first men came back that home was ready for them. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. What date was that? — A. About July, 1915. When these men came back to Montreal, it was evident that some organization should meet them at the station, to look after them and show them on their way. We found that some of the very first men who came back required particular attention. One of them, a half-witted man, was wandering around the city, and had no place to go. We took each man to our Home. In those early days the members of the Organization met the men when they arrived at the station and saw that they had everything they needed until they took their trains in the morning to go to their homes. When this first Convalescent Home, called No. 1, became overcrowded we established No. 2, which was St. George's Home, and which has since been used for another purpose. Then we establislied 28277—28 [Mr. A. R. Doble.] 434 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETVRy ED SOLDIERS the McTavish Home which was established for shell shock and nervous cases but which unfortunately has not been used to any extent for them. We also established another Khaki Club which deals particularly with returned soldiers, and, perhaps more especially with discharged soldiers. We have found that the recruits and the returned men do not mix very well. At that place we do quite remarkable work for the men who come to us ; no matter what his grievance is, whether it is about his pay and allowances, pension, treatment, whatever it is that he is in trouble about, we trj' to straighten out for him. Q. Whether he was a discharged or undischarged soldier? Your responsibility does not end with his discharge ?— A. No, not at all. In fact very often that is just where trouble commences, because these men when they are discharged are at the most critical period of their life. When they need most our assistance. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. When these returned soldiers make complaints to you do you make any re- presentations to anybody on their behalf?— A. Yes, we are continually making re- presentations at one time or another on their behalf. A large number of them come to us for assistance or with grievances at some time or other. Q. Has there been any complaints about men being discharged before positions have been secured for them? — A. Yes, but in many eases it is because of the man importuning for his discharge. By the Chairman: Q.Now perhaps you had better get back to your main story? — A. The difficulty that the soldier experiences on his discharge, is that during his military career he has. been able always to go to some one person to get redress for any grievance he has. He has either his platoon commander, his company commander, or his officer commanding to go to; up to the time of his discharge, he is never without some one to go to to get his grievances remedied. When he is discharged all that falls away. There may be half a dozen offices in town. If he wants to interview the Militia Department, he goes to one part of the city ; for employment to another ; if his family is in trouble, he goes to the Patriotic Fund and finds that the discharged man has no further rights there. In order to avoid that, we have recently organized a co-operative committee which takes charge of these difficulties with a returned man and his family. This committee consists of representatives of all the various unofficial societies, in the city, which are trying to look after returned soldiers. It tries to prevent over- lapping; makes inquiries about the circumstances of the men and their families, and tries in worthy cases to provide effective relief. By the Chairman: Q. No case can come before this co-operative committee but some member of that committee feels the responsibility of taking care of that case?— A. Yes, we have a permanent secretary Miss Evelyn Armstrong, daughter of Dr. George E. Armstrong. She is a voluntary worker, she looks after all these cases. In the last two months, since our committee was established, we have had over 55 cases. Q. How is this committee constituted? — A. It consists of delegates from the Soldiers' Wives League, two from each, from the Retirrned Soldiers' Association, from the St. George's Society, and the Khaki League. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. How is your League financed? — A. By voluntary subscriptions. Q. Do you get any government aid?— A. We get 75 cents per man per day for the soldiers in our two convalescent homes, but nothing for the very many men who go through our clubs. [Mr. A. R. Doble.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 435 By the Chairman: Q. Any papers you may care to file for our record, you may refer to and hand to the Secretary, and they will be printed. — A. In our club on Dorchester Street, we served 2T,8)05 meals last year. We give a man a week's hospitality on his return, and if really needed, we will give him more, otherwise we charge a small sum in order to preserve the self-respect of the men. We do not want to make them objects of charity. Q. What kind of cases has this co-operative committee been particularly called upon to take care of? I suppose they would be the residue cases, those belonging to nobody, they therefore would be the ones where grievances are most likely to happen ? — A. I think that is a fair conclusion. . By Mr. Pardee: Q. Have you these men classified, Mr. Doble, as to what is the matter with them? — A, We have a complete record of every case. Q. Have you them classified? — A. We have them recorded. Q. Have you that classification with you ? — A. It would take some time to pre- pare it. I have a complete record of every case that we have investigated. By the Chairman: Q. Have you a complete record of the complaints that have been lodged with you by the returned soldiers? — A. I doubt if we have. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Have you concrete cases where the man's condition or care could be improved upon? — A. I think I could help you on the lines of the discussion tliis morning. Q. Go ahead. — A. For instance, I think that the conflict that has been going on over returned soldiers is one that militates greatly against the welfare of the men, and I think — for instance, you have been discussipg as to who should be in charge of these men when they return. It is not really a question as 'to whether it should be the Military Hospitals Commission or the ^Militia Department, but whether the objects of putting them in convalescent Homes should be medical treatment or military dis- cipline. Military discipline so far as I know conflicts with medical treatment, and I believe that a medical officer should be in charge of military convalescent homes in- cluding the enforcement of discipline. It does not matter whether you make the convalescent home military or not. Q. By reason of this divided authority, do you know of any returned soldier who has suffered? — A. Yes, I think the soldiers generally suffer. Q. Tell us how. In what way is their comfort not looked after? — A. For in- stance, I think that the soldiers have been confined in one institution here under cir- cumstances where their recovery is absolutely impossible. Q. Where is that? — A, In the basement of the Grey Nuns Convalescent Home. Q. For what reason? — A. Because the conditions of sunlight and ai'r are such that no man could properly recover. There is not the sufficient air and proper sun- light, which, to my mind, are the greatest curative agencies these men could possibly have. Q. Who has charge of that hospital? — A. The Military Hospitals Commis- sion. Q. Would you suggest a change? — A. Do you mean doing away with it? Q. Yes. — A. No, I do not suggest that change, but I would suggest that there W- no divided authority. Q. Would you be quite content if it were under either one or the other? — A. No, I do not think I would. Q. Which do you want? — A. You want me to go down to fundamentals? Q. That is what we want to get at. — A. I think the Military Hospitals Commis- sion as at present constituted is an unwieldy and impossible body. 28277— 28J [Mr. A. R. Doble. 3 436 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Why? — A. Because they are men gathered from all parts of the Dominion, who are charged with a duty they have not any particular means of performing. I understand there have been no meetings, for instance, since September last. I think that far more effective work could be done under a commission, say, of these men, the best medical man you can get in Canada, the best qualified returned soldier, and the best business man, Q. You think that would be sufficient? — A. I do. Q. Coming back to this hospital where there is not sufficient light, have there been representations made to the effect that the sanitary conditions in that hospital are not what they ought to be? — A. Yes. Q. To whom? — A. To the Chairman of the Military Hospitals Commission. Q. Who is that? — A. Sir James Lougheed, and to Colonel Thompson. Q. What did they have to say regarding them? — A. I think they usually acknow- ledged my letters. Q. And nothing has been done? — A. I think in the course of time something has been done. For instance, (refers to manuscript) on the 23rd October I wrote to Sir James Lougheed and suggested that the technical training as carried on in the Grey Nuns Convalescent Home was not productive of good results because the conditions there were impossible, and suggested that the men should be trained at the technical schools here. That is now being done. Q. What I was trying to get at was this: you said it was impossible for the men to recover because the light and air were so bad. Did you make any representation as to the sanitary conditions of that place? — A. Yes, I did. Q. What did you say? — A. I have not my correspondence here. Q. Could you get it, Mr. Doble ? — A. I will bring it this evening. Q. I would like to see what you have had to say. What we want to get at is — I don't care where the fault lies, whether in the Medical Corps or the Hospitals Commis- sion — but where is your concrete grievance if you have any. That is what this Com- mittee is here to find out. You represent the soldiers? — A. More or less, but I was not appointed by them. Q. You are actually before this Committee as their representative? — A. They have not made me their representative. I represent a work going on in Montreal for the last two years on behalf of the soldiers. Q. Would you undertake to say you are speaking on behalf of the soldiers? — A. I am speaking in their interests. Q. Have soldiers' complaints ever been lodged with you? — A. They have. Q. What would they be ? — A. They are of various natures. Q. Well, give us them — A. For instance, they have complained to me about their difficulties with pay and pensions. Q. Pay and pensions have been arranged. The Government has recently issued an order in council remedying those grievances, so leave them out. — A. I have had complaints of hospital discipline and treatment. Q. Tell us about them? — A. Well, the men feel, for instance, that in some hos- pitals the discipline is too strict, that the hospitals themselves bear too penal an aspect. Q- What hospitals are those? — A. The hospital we have been discussing is, to my mind, too penal. Q. The soldiers have made complaints specifically about that? — A. They have. Q. What did they say? Just tell us in your own words and their words. — A. For instance, they object to the fact that punishment is too outstanding a feature there. For instance, the first thing they see when they go into the institution is a row of " clinks ". Q. That is a jail?— A. Yes. Q. Do they tell you that they are put in the clink?— A. Yes. Q. Why? — A. I am giving you hearsay things. You are asking me what I heard, not what I know. fMr. A. R. Doble.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 437 Q. Do you think that what you have heard then is worthy of credence? — In a great many cases Q. Have you any concrete cases in that line? — A. I have no concrete cases to give you now. Q. Do you go to these hospitals yourself, 'Mr. Dohle? — A. I do. Q. What, in your opinion, is the manner in which they are managed generally? — A. You understand that two of the hospitals are hospitals which we ourselves offered the Hospitals Commission, and which we furnished, and for which we supplied the personnel. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Were they accepted by the Hospitals Commission? — A. They were. Q. What Hospitals were they ? — A. The Khaki League Homes. Q. What do you mean by "provided the personnel", you mean the nurses? — A. The nurses are provided by the Voluntary Aid Detachment. They are all voluntary nurses ; none of them have ever been paid, and they have done magnificent work. Q. Are you quite satisfied with the management of those? — A. Certainly I am, of those two hospitals. Q. Which two ? — A. The two Khaki League Hospitals. Q. What do you call them?— A. No. 1 and No. 3. The Chairman* : Belmont Park and MacTavish Street. Q. They are both in Montreal? — A. Yes. Q. With those two you have no complaint to make? — A. I i aturally would not: they are our own. Q. What others do you complain of? — A. I am not here to complain of any hospitals. I have told you what men say. One complaint you hear is that, instead of sending men to our hospitals the returned soldiers are not sent there except in small numbers, but are sent to the Grey Nuns, while camp men are put in our hospitals. The hospital we especially provided for returned soldiers suffering from shock, has been filled with men who have not gone overseas, camp men. Q. Have you inquired about that? — A. Yes. Q. With what result? — A. The proportion of those from overseas has been increased. By the Chairman: Q. Were your two hospitals provided for overseas soldiers or for whom? — A. Any soldier. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Was it your idea camp men should not be treated in your hospitals? — A. No, that was not the idea, but I have told you the special facilities which we thought could be given by our No. 3 hospital. Q. Under those circumstances there is no complaint to make if that hospital is established for camp men instead of overseas men? — A. Except we think the returned men should have the first call. Q. Is it at the Hospitals Commission's request that camp men are put in there? — A. No, I think not. I think they naturally send the returned men to the institu- tion which they completely control. Q. And the overflow? — A. No. 7. The local military authorities were anxious to find some place that they could put camp men in need of medical treatment and thus they filled up our home. By the Chairman: Q. Do you find that they do not mix? — A. No, they do not, because the majority of the men being camp men they monopolize the facilities and crowd out the returned soldiers who feel they are entitled to special consideration. [Mr. A. R Doble.] 438 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Are the camp men to be sent to the military hospitals under the regular charge of the A.D.M.S., or is it expected the camp men shall be sent to voluntary hospitals equipped by special subscriptions ?— A. I cannot answer for that; they are so sent. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Besides the question of the clink in the Grey N^uns hospitals, what are the other complaints?— A. I think the practical difficulty is that the discipline is admin- istered by a man who is not a medical man. Q. Who is that? — A. The officer commanding the division, Major Hall. Q. The discipline is administered by him? — A. Yes. Q. In what way do they complain? Is it that the discipline is too strict? — A. They have various complaints. For instance I had a complaint, whether it is well founded or not I do not know, that a man was put in the clink for smoking. Q. Is smoking prohibited? — A. In the wards I believe it is. Q. Any other complaints? — A. Well, I have not in mind any particular com- plaint. The complaints are coming in all the time. I am quite sure you will hear all about those cases when you call the secretary of the Keturned Soldiers Asso- ciation. Q. But you take up those complaints? That is part of your office to take up those complaints? — A. We endeavour to investigate, but it is not our business to interfere with the administration of another institution. Q. The only institution you take apy responsibility for is your own? — A. Certainly. Q. Those are only two institutions? — A. Yes. Q. But if there are any complaints of other institutions would it not be your duty, as President of the Association, to look after them and get at the bottom of them? — A. In the interest of the soldier, if I thought complaints were well founded or there were any grievances, I would try to get them righted, certainly. Q. Does it come down to this, that the only grievances that you have endeavoured to get righted are that the air and light are bad in the Grey Nuns hospital, that the soldiers have complained that it has too much of a penal aspect about it ? I may have forgotten some of the complaints, but those are the only two with the exception of the fact that discipline is maintained; are those the only grievances the soldiers here have against the hospital that are not directly under the Khaki League? — A. I do not know, sir. Those, to my mind, are fundamental complaints, because every man who goes through an institution where he does not receive proper treatment deteriorates, and therefore will become a greater charge on this country for pensions and otherwise, so that it seems to me that is a fundamental matter. Q. Quite so, but are those the only ones ? — A. Those are the ones which I have con- sidered it is particularly important to have corrected. • Q. And have you made representations of all those to the Department or to the Hospitals Commission, or to whoever is the man higher up? — A. So far as I possibly can. Q. And you have your letters to show that, and you can give them to the Commit- tee? — A. Yes, I have a list of considerable correspondence here, of various subjects that have been dealt with. By the Chairman: Q. And is it not a fact that since you have been making those representations a new hospital has been opened which is not open to those criticisms — the Loyola Hos- pital on Drummond street? — ^A. I think, as far as the training goes, that those diffi- culties are avoided by the use of McGill and the INIontroal Technical School. Q. Have you visited the new Loyola Convalescent Home? — A. Not since it was completed. [Mr. A. R. Doble.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 439 Q. Have you reason to believe that sunlight and air will be insufficient in that new home that is going to be used? — A. But no, what you must remember Q. I want to know whether the Hospitals Commission has not been provi-ling another hospital, very much superior to the Grey Nuns hospital and not open to the criticisms that have been made? — A. The difficulty is not with the wards in the Grey Nuns hospitals. The wards are clean and I believe well lighted, but the men have been confined in the basement recreation room, which is filled up with smoke, where there are from two to three hundred men, pretty nearly all day long, where the con- ditions are such that they are constantly breathing foul air and never get proper day- light. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Have they to stay down in the recreation roon>? — A. Practically so. You have been given the hours. Q. Are they allowed to go up into the wards in the day time? — A. I believe they are not allowed to do that. Bi/ Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. The building itself is satisfactory ?— A. I think the building is satisfactory for the purpose for which it has been used, but I think it is not entirely satisfactory for the ])urpose for which it is about to be used. Q. It was chosen by the Hospitals Commission? — A. I think if patients are to be confined in a building which is anything but fireproof that it is simply rank injustice to men who have already exposed their lives for us once, to expose them further to the possibility of death from fire. Q. Who has control of that hospital ?— A. The Military Hospitals Commission. By Mr. Pardee: Q. You were going on to tell us that you also had correspondence on other sub- jects? — A. Yes. Q. I take it that is a list of the subjects you corresponded about which you have in front of you. What are the other subjects which you had reason to correspond about and make complaint if any or recommendations if any? — A. Do you want me to read the list? Q. Yes, read it? — A. There is a reference here to vocational training. Some of these are in the way of recommendations and not criticisms. Q. Give us now any criticism that you have got, and we will get the rest of it later?— A. Well, I find a letter here on the clothing furnished to the men. We fur- nished during the past year nearly 500 men with clothes. Q. Returned soldiers? — A. Yes. There might be some others, but a very frequent complaint is that the clothing wdiich they are entitled to receive on discharge is not satisfactory. Q. Who supplies that clothing? — A. The Government. Q. Have you had any complaints along those lines? — A. Quite a number of' them. Q. You know of these things of your own knowledge? — A. I know that there have been many complaints; I cannot tell you how many. Q. You know there have been many complaints? — A. Yes. Q. What are the returned soldiers furnished with in the way of clothes? — A. When they are discharged? Q. What are they furnished with? — A. I believe the Government furnishes them with a complete suit of civilian clothes and an overcoat in winter to the value, in- cluding the overcoat, of $13. Q. Is that done through you? — A. No. Q. Who is that done through? — A. You will have to ask a military man to tell jou. • [Mr. A. R. Doble.] 440 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. You do not know anything about it? — A. No. Q. You have some criticism to make on that question of clotliing? — A. Well, the men, of course, complain that the clothing is not substantial enough. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Have you seen any of those suits yourself? — A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What do you think of them ? — A. I think, perhaps, they are all you can expect for the money. Q. Do you think the money is enough? — A. I think you gentlemen realize that $13 does not go very far to provide an outfit. Q. Then you do not think it is enough? — A. No. By the Chairman: Q. What does yoxir experience in clothing men lead you to think? — A. We fit men out with clothes and boots. Q. What does it cost you? — A. We fit them out with second-hand clothing given to us by kind friends, and occasionally we buy boots, vuiderwear, etc., when we run short. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Winter or summer? — A. All year around. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What do you think is a sufiicient amount to fit a man out with clothes and boots? — A. I cannot say. Q. If $13 is too little how much do you think would do it? — A. That is a hard question to answer. The price of a substantial suit of clothes might vary in different places. Take Montreal, what would it cost? — A. Well, I should say at the very least twice $13. Q. And you think that should be granted? — A. I think that should be granted. Q. What other complaints or criticisms are there? — A. Well there are complaints sometimes that men have not been able to get proper medical treatment. Q. After their discharge? — A. During their convalescence. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Pending their discharge? — A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Whilst they are in the hospital?— A. Yes. Q. In what way has that been lacking? — A. Sometimes men say that there are so many cases in the hospitals and it is impossible for the staff to get around. Q. Have you heard that complaint made of any specific hospital that is under- manned and not able to take care of its patients? — A. I have heard men say that they had not seen a doctor for a considerable period of time, and they did not know what they were doing there. Q. What hospital?— A. The Grey Nuns. Q. Any other hospital than the Grey Nuns? — A. No. Q. How many of those complaints have you had? — A. I really could not tell you. Complaints of course are frequent. Some are not well founded and one has not time to sift every complaint which may be made to us. Q. Take any one case you know of a man that has complained that an hospital is undermanned and that he has not seen a doctor for several days. Can you give me any one specific complaint of that kind? — A. I think the Secretary of the Returned Soldiers Associativa will probably be able to tell you. [Mr. A. R. Doble.] - RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 441 Q. You do not know from what he was suffering or anything of that kind? Take any case that you can bring to your mind of the man complaining he was not suffi- ciently taken care of, can you recall any instance of whether you know what that man was suffering from. Give me one case please? — A. Well, a man approached me yesterday on the car. I did not take his name because I did not want to get him into trouble, as he told me he was out without leave, but he said that it was not much good his being in the hospital because he seldom saw the doctor. Q. What was the matter with him?— A. I think it was largely nervousness, but he had lost a leg. Q. AVas there sufficient recovery from the leg being taken off to not need the ser- vices of a medical man? — A. No, I should think not. Q. Then that is a case you would put down to neglect or to undermanning? — A. To undermanning, I should say. Q. And that case came from the Grey Nuns hospital? — A. Yes. Q. Is that the only case of the kind you can tell the Committee of? — A. If I had my complete records here I could probably give you other cases. As I have already said, I did not come prepared to answer some of these questions, because I understood that cases of complaint of treatment by returned soldiers would be made through the Returned Soldiers' Association, and would be presented this evening by Trooper Brown. Q. Then if you have no other cases to cite, we will leave the remainder to Trooper Brown. Have you any suggestions to make as to things tliat are not being followed out in regard to returned soldiers? Have you any information that would aid this Committee in preparing their report? For instance, if you were asked today what more you would do for the returned soldiers, what would you reply? The Chairman : The returned soldier who comes back unfit. Q. To be taken care of. The Chairman: Not the demobilized soldier, but the returned soldier who is UTifit? — A. Of course, each man is almost an individual problem. The work which we do is quite unlike any other work. We get hold of each man and try to deal with his particular case, it is largely a psychological problem. Q. There is no doubt about that, but what I want to know is that if you were asked what you would do for the returned soldier, other than is being done, what would you reply? — A. Of course, that is the whole problem. Q. Certainly it is. That is the whole thing. Now certain things are being done at present, what more would you want to have done? By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. W^hat do you want done to improve their condition? Perhaps that is better, what do you want done to improve their condition? — A. I think, for instance, Dis- charge stations should be established where men would not be subject to the tempta- tions they have to contend with now in drinking. One of the great difficulties we have to meet in dealing with the returned soldiers, is drunkenness, which begins when the men are discharged at Quebec. One of the things I have recommended is that the Discharge Office should be removed from Quebec, because the men when they come back and are discharged through Quebec are almost inevitably subjected to great temptations in the way of liquor. Q. Where would you have them discharged? — A. I suggest they should be dis- charged from St. John or Halifax. Q. Dry towns?— A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. Would you undertake to say from your wide experience of the returned sol- diers in the city of Montreal, what precentage, in a general way, of the trouble is due [Mr. A. R. Doble.] 442 SPECIAL COMMITTEE—C.E.F.—UETURNED SOLDIERS to intoxicating liquor? — A. I think a very large percentage, Sir Herbert. I tliink their troubles are greatly aggravated by drink. If there were no whisky in Montreal in my opinion one half of our difficulties would be removed. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Do not the liquor license regulations prohibit the selling of whisky to returned soldiers? — A. Yes, but Q. Or to any soldier at all? — A. To any soldier in uniform, but the regulations do not apply to the discharged man. He goes back into mufti. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Have not prosecutions been executed against those who sold liquor to those in uniform? — A. Our Association is trying to cope with tlie evil and do the best we can. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Were any efforts made to prevent the selling of liquor to soldiers? — A. Yes. Q. What results were obtained? — A. Special Detectives were put at work and efforts made to discover the places where the law was violated. (). What hf!s been the result? — A. I think they are doing. the best they can. Q. Have there been any prosecutions? — A. I have not heard of any. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Do you think the complaints which you have been hearing from time to time are genuine? — A. if any complaints are not genuine, there ds no doi;bt about that. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What else would you suggest in the way of improvements or reforms, having for their objects the amelioration of the conditions for returned soldiers? — A. I would suggest that the dual control, of which mention has been made to-day, be abolished, and that the men be placed under one authority or the other. Q. That matter has been discussed pretty thoroughly. Is there anything else? — A. T think the proper military hospitals should be provided for the men we are going to get back, especially the bed cases. I have already told you that I do not think the Grey Nunnery is a suitable place for bed cases, or amputation cases. The struc- ture would burn very quickly, and I think there would be extreme difficulty in rescuing these men, some of whom have lost both legs, who will be coming back to us. To get such men out of a five or six story building, lying helpless as they are by rolling them in mattresses, would be an extremely difficult thing. Q. Do you agree with what has been said here this morning, that in view of the great conveniences in the Montreal hospitals, it would be as well to treat these men in civilian hospitals and not strictly military hospitals, or do you know anything about that? — A. Yes, I think the equipment of the civilian hospitals is so good that it should be utilized in many cases for the returned soldiers, even at the inconvenience of civilians. I think the returned soldiers have the first claim on the country, and a little inconvenience to civilians would be comparatively trifling as compared with the convenience of returned soldiers. By the Chairman: Q. Are you referring to Camp cases? — A. No, I am spealving of returned soldiers. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Is the returned soldier given a choice of hospitals? — A. No, he is not consulted as to which hospital he shall go to. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Did I quite get to the end of the subjects you have corresponded with the department on? — A. Probably all that would interest you without delaying your pro- gramme. [Mr. A. R. Doble.] I RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 443 Q. Was this correspondence in connection with returned soldiers? — A. Always in connection with soldiers and mainly in connection with returned soldiers. Q. To secure the betterment of their condition? — A. Certainly. Q. What are there? — A. Well, I have a heading here " The Effect of the Treat- ment of Returned Soldiers on Recruiting." Would that interest you? Mr. MiDDLEBRO: Tell us what the treatment is, and then we can form an opinion. The Witness: I really think one great difficulty has been, as I said before, the returned soldier has had no one place where he could go and state his case and get proper redress, outside of the work we are trying to develop. He has difficulty in get- ting a hearing and in getting properly attended to. In the meantime, he is apt to go round and growse and people naturally sympathize with him, and it has done a great deal of harm. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. Do you think the Government should establish an office in the city of Montreal and also one in the city of Toronto, particularly for the purpose of listening to the com- Ijlaints of returned soldiers? Is that your idea? — A. I think there should be one cen- tral place established. We are endeavouring to provide that now. Q. Yourselves? — A. Yes. For example, when a soldier enlists he sees armouries, recruiting stations and other facilities iirovided for the man who is going away. But there is very little in the way of such facilities placed at the disposal of the man who comes back. He has so far been unable to find any one place where he could go and state his case and get a prompt hearing. By the Chairman: Q. Do you think there should be situated in each military district what might be called a Soldiers' Information Bureau with some person on hand to answer all ques- tions relating to returned soldiers? — A. I think some such thing would be a great advantage. Sir Herbert. Q. Would you have such a bureau conducted as a regular official department of the Government? — A. No. I think the Patriotic Fund is an example, and a very shining example, of what unofficial effort can do. There are many things that can be better and more economically done, with less red tape to clog progress, by unofficial effort than by official action. Unfortunately there is usually as much red tape about the operation of official agencies. That is what we have found. ' Q. Do you think that this Bureau of Information for Returned Soldiers might better succeed under the control of some sort of co-operating committee? — A. Yes, because we find that our own co-o])erating committee is working extremely well. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Where would the funds come from for such work? — A. Well, we find that a good deal is done at present by unofficial effort as a labour of love. By the Chairman: Q. Would the Soldiers' Aid Commission do that? — A There is no Soldiers' Aid Commission in this province, but there is the Soldiers' Employment Bureau. That i? under the control of the Hon. Mr. Simard, who will be able to tell you all about it. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Would it not be possible for every returned soldier to get such information at the office of the General Officer Commanding the District^ — A. The great object is to restore these men to civilian life, therefore it seems to me you should have for this purpose a non-military and unofficial agency, Q. What could you have that would be more efficient than the regular military authorities? — A. The contact of the man with his former companions and the touch [Mr. A. R. Doble.] 444 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS of human sjinpathy lielp to restore him to civilian life and to bring about his rehab- ilitation. Q. And many of the returned soldiers are discharged men? — A. As Sir Herbert says, many are discharged men over whom the military authorities have no control. lion. ^Ir. Daxiel: I thought you were referring to the soldier, not to the dis- charged man. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Your report shows that many of the returned soldiers have found employment. That would reduce to a minimum the number of men who are complaining? — A. It is not difficult to find places for men, but it is very difficult to keep the men in the places that have been found. Q. I have been looking at your figures, and it would seem that you have no imem- ployed returned soldiers practically, in this district. If that be so, how can there be manj^ men to make complaints. Either there are not many men going around making complaints or the return is incorrect? — A. There are a great many men who are quite incapable of keeping steady employment, and they are practically going around from one place to another and working at each place but a short time. By Hon. Mr. Mar oil: Q. Has the man lost his position through his own fault, or is it due to a state of health resulting from his services at the front? — A. Very often the man, as a result of his military service is rendered incapable of holding his job. Q. What do you do for a case like that? — A. We try to fit a job to the man if we possibly can. The Chairman : I think the matter of employment can possibly better be dis- cussed when the Hon. Mr. Simard is called to the witness stand. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. How many nurses have you on the staff employed in your hospitals? — A. You are speaking now of our Khaki League hospitals? Q. In your No. 1 and No. 3 Hospitals? — A. I should say that there are, probably, at one time, six or eight nurses on duty at each place. Q. Do I understand you to say that they are all Voluntary Aid Nurses ? — A. They are in our own hospitals; they are not all graduate nurses, but they have been there doing this work gratuitously and they are doing it very well. There are a nimiber of masseuses nurses there who are giving their services voluntarily. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Those nurses you speak of as not having graduated have instructions in First Aid and matter of that kind, and pass examinations, but they are not what you call graduate nurses? — A. No, they are not graduate nurses, although we have some gra- duate nurses there, who, like the rest serve voluntarily. Q. Are not these soldiers who go there from time to time tmder discipline? — A. The Hospitals Commission have complete jurisdiction over all soldiers up to the time of a man's discharge. Q. Then the Military Hospitals Commission have a central point to which they can make complaints — you raised that point, and I understand there is a place here to which they may complain? — A. Up till the time of discharge, I understand that they are absolutely under the jurisdiction of the Military Hospitals Commission. Q. I know in practice that often he is looked after even after he leaves the hos- pital ? — A. After the man is finally discharged ? Q. Certainly? — A. The Government has no control over him after he is finally discharged, he is nominally restored to civil life. Q. But you do not mean to say that the Military Hospitals Commission do not pay any attention to him after he is discharged. As I am advised every man who goes [Mr. A. R Doble.] I RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 445 there, whether discharged, or not discharged, receives attention and his grievances are always listened to, he always meets with a civil reception, and everything is done for him that can be done? — A. As far as I know the Military Hospitals Commission has no jurisdiction over him. Q. I know that they do not control the discharged men, but do they not in practice deal with every soldier discliarged or undischarged, if he has a grievance? — A. I am quite certain that if any discharged soldier went to them with a complaint they would do the best they could to aid him, but it is not their job. They do it as an act of grace and voluntarily. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. This is a report of an agreement between the Dominion and the Provincial Governments which says: By arrangement between the Governments of the Dominion and the respective Provinces, the Government of each Province undertook to appoint a Provincial Commission to consider the best methods and plans to be adopted for the solution of the various problems involved in taking care of and finding employment for the members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force who returned to Canada during the period of the war, and at a conference held between the Military Hospitals Commission and representatives of the provincial Govern- ments, it was agreed — And among other agreements was one that the various provinces through the Soldiers' Aid Commissions agreed to find employment for discharged soldiers, — A. I said that there was no Soldiers' Aid Commission in Quebec, but that the cor- responding body here was the Provincial Employment Bureau. Q. Who is the president of the Soldiers' Aid Association? — A. There is no Soldiers' Aid Association in Quebec; there is the Provincial Employment Bureau, but I think their functions are purely to find employment for the returned soldiers. Q. You spoke about cells being provided in the Grey Nuns Hospital as if the men were being shoved in these cells against their will. These cells were, I suppose, provided when the building was erected? — A. No, they were put in for this purpose. Q. And the one person you know of who had been put in there was put there because he had been smoking against the regulation? — A. No, men no doubt fre- quently have been there. Q. Have you any complaint of men who have been put there unjustly? — A. Yes. Q. Can you give us a specific instance of what they were confined there for? Will you tell me the name of some soldier who has complained of being confined there and what he was being put in for? — A. Of course the whole difficulty is as I have told you '■ Q. Excuse me, I want you to give a specific instance of a soldier who said he was put in this cell for doing a certain thing? — A. A soldier was confined there some time ago — it is not a question that I want to go into. Q. I want to know the class of offences for which they were put in there? — A. There are various offences provided for under the military regulations, and if a soldier infringes those regulations there is a scale of penalties attached. Q. Give me a specific instance? — A. I heard of one case where a soldier was confined in one of the clinks for two days during the summer, he was tubercular, and there were no sanitary appliances. Q. What was liis offence? — A. I cannot tell you what his offence was. Q. But if you cannot tell what his offence was, you do not know whether his confinement was just or not?— A. No matter what his offence was, he should not have [Mr. A. R. Doble.] 446 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS been confined without sanitary appliances. I object to the clink because I think it is unfortunate that when a man comes back from 'serving his country By the Chairman: Q. What would you do when a man went out at 5 o'clock in the evening, and comes back roaring drunk? What would you do with him? — A. I grant you he should be disciplined, but I think there is a choice of methods. Q. Would not the best place to put that man be as near the door through which he came as possible so that he would cause as little disturbance as possible to the patients at night? — A. I could not say that. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Let us go further into this. We will probably see in to-morrow's papers the statement that the soldiers are imprisoned in this clink because they broke the rule about smoking. Do you know, of your own knowledge, that the soldier objects to these clinks simply because he does not like to see them? — A. I think from a public point of view they are unfortunately situated. Q. I grant you that, but supposing that a soldier comes in drunk and dis- orderly, and you cannot make him desist in any other way and there are 200 other patients in that hospital who want to sleep and cannot because of this inconvenience, do you think because the soldier does not like to see the clink there they should not have it? — A. I think they should be put in some other place. By the Chairman: Q. But they are nearest the door through which he came; where would you have them? — A. I think they would be better in the cellar. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Then the only objection you have to the clink is that they are not in the cellar, so that the drunken man would not see them? — A. No, that is not my only objection. Q. Then what is your objection, — A. I have said that I consider the whole aspect of the institution is too penal. Q. It is not penal unless they inflict the penalties. — A. I say the aspect. Q. But if they are not used at all you think that it has a bad influence? — A. I certainly do, yes. Q. You do not know of any specific ofi^ence for which a man has been put in there? — A. No, but the records will show that. Q. You really cannot say as to whether or not anybody merited the punishment they got? — A. No doubt they did. Q. Of your own knowledge you camiot tell whether they merited it or not? — A. If you ask me whether the military ofiicers have the right to inflict adequate punish- ment I suppose they would have; I think the soldiers should be punished when necessary. By Mr. Pardee: Q. But you think there are ways and ways of punishment? — A. Certainly. The whole problem is a diflfieult one. You have a number of these men coming back into civil life and they have to be treated reasonably. Very often these men have been under terrible strain. By the Chairman: Q. When you have returned soldiers and camp soldiers, do you think they should be put in the Grey Nuns Hospital on the same rule? — A. I think the two classes of men would be better kept apart, in different hospitals. [Mr. A. R. Doble.] RECEPTION. TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 447 By Mr. Pardee: ■ Q. In your Khaki League Hospitals, have you discipline? — A. Yes. Q. And do you find that the discipline is as good in your khaki hospitals, ^o. 1 and No. 3, as it is in the Grey Nuns Hospitals? — A. Yes, I think so far as I am aware, the di'scipline is administered by the Medical Officer in our hospitals, and I think that should be the case in every hospital. Q. And good order and discipline is kept there, you know ? — A. There is excellent order and good discipline, provided that we have the right kind of non-commissioned officers in charge of these soldiers. Q. You are not satisfied, apparently, with the non-commissioned officer in charge of the men at the Grey Nuns Hospital? — A. No, I do not say that at all. I am telling you what our own experience has been, that where the non-commissioned officer under- stands the men and treats them kindly, there is good discipline. Q. Are you satisfied that there are good men in charge of the soldiers at the Grey Nuns Hospital? — A. I do not know anything about it. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Do you not think that if you had these clinks down in the cellar as you suggest, instead of where they are now, that you would have great complaints from the men that they were imprisoned in the cellar, and then there would be the greatest row? — A. That may be, but I think discipline should be administered by the medical officer. Q. Then you have no objection to the clinks so much as to the men who ad- minister the discipline? — A. Yes. I think very often discipline is administered by men w-ho have absolutely no knowledge whatever regarding the bearing which that discipline has on the man's treatment. Very often, I think, discipline is administered, which the doctor in charge of the case would not approve of. By the Chairman: Q. You think that it should be upon the combined judgment of the medical man and the military officer? — A. No, my opinion is that it should be in charge of the medical officer; that discipline should be administered by the medical officer and noi by a combatant officer. Q. You think that the whole administration of the hospital should be under the medical man? — A. Certainly, from A to Z. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Do you have men coming drunk into your hospital? — A. Yes. Q. What do you do with them? — A. We have to confine disorderly men in the basement; sometimes men come drunk into our clubs — you have not asked me about these clubs; they are the most wonderful places of all. Q. Tell us about the Khaki Clubs. By the Chairman: Q. You had better finish first by telling us what you do with the men when they come in drunk? — A. We try and straighten them up. Q. Your two hospitals are entirely in charge of the medical men. there is no dis- ciplinary officer in either of those institutions? — A. None, apart from the non-com- missioned officers of whom I have spoken. Q. But those men are under the control of the medical officer? — A. Yes. Q, What do you do with those cases when they come in drunk? — A. It would depend upon the condition the man was in entirely. If he were roaring drunk, and wanted to smash up things, he would be put where he could not do it. Q. Would any penalty be inflicted upon him besides incarceration until he became sober? — A. He would be subject to military penalties in case of drunkenness. Q. Which consist of a fine ? — A. Well the military man will tell you what they are. [Mr. A. R. Doble.] 448 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Have you got authority in the Khaki League Hospitals to put a man in prison? — A. They are subject to exactly the same regulations as in the other hospitals. We are entirely under the jurisdiction of the Military Hospitals Commission. Mr. Ross: Then you would have authority. The Chairman: If there is nothing more the Committee wish to ask Mr. Doble, he may retire, and if the witness has anything to add we will be glad to have him drop in to-morrow morning. Mr. Doble might bring with him the correspondence he has referred to to-day suggesting improvements to the hospitals and homes. The Witness : Yes. Witness discharged. Dr. F. C. St. B. Harrison, Principal of Macdonald College, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. I understand, doctor, that a number of the soldiers, about one hundred or more, went out to Macdonald College recently, and were taken throiigh the plant? — A. Yes. Q. Do you think that any considerable number of those men would take training while convalescents along agricultural lines, and have you anything to suggest as to the training of men while convalescent in agricultural pursuits? — A. Well, it would be necessary, first of all, to find out from those men what their previous employment was, and then divide them into two classes. In the first class, would be men who had come from agricultural occupations, and in the second class men who had not been previously engaged in agricultural occupations, but who might wish to obtain informa- tion in order that they might engage in them. In the first class, those who had some previous experience, it would be, I think, a good idea to give them further training along those lines. In the second class, those who had not much previous training, but who wished to go into that work, it would be advisable to find out if that occupation would satisfy them, and the only way of doing that is not by giving them an education, but by putting them on a farm with either an accredited farmer, or else having demon- stration farms, with other farmers around them, where they may be placed for some time to see if they were capable of going on with the work or not. I may say that when speaking of farming, agriculture is becoming more specialized. By farming I mean general or mixed farming, in such occupations as orcharding, bee-keeping, poultry farming, florist work or market gardening, which are specialized forms. Q. We have been told at Ottawa that during the convalescent period many soldiers are taught vocations. Can you at Ste. Anne's supply training to men along out-of- door lines that would improve them for earning their own living after discharge? — A. We could employ a number of them. Again, to return to what I have said, I do not tiiink it worth while to employ such men unless they want to go in for farming, or unless they have a natural inclination that way. It is no good forcing them into farming, and it is necessary to find out from each man what his previous training was, and then give him an apprenticeship, otherwise you will have Canada full of mis- fits. Q. I was not getting quite so far as that. Supposing the fifty men at the Grey Nuns Home should say in May that instead of learning wood-worklu^r or carpentry they would like to spend a couple of months of their convalescent period training in outdoor agriculture. Could you utilize these men? — A. Not to that number. Q. Could you utilize any considerable number? — A. We could take a certain number provided that they knew something about farming. [Dr. P. C. St.-B. Harrison.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 449 Q. Provided they originally knew something about it? — A. Yes, because if it is a question of giving training or work to people who know nothing about it, we have not the facilities in the summer. Our work in summer is divided into a number of departments, each doing certain definite woi-k. From October until the end of May WG are teaching. To illustrate: we take no student in our agricultural course unless he has spent a season on a Canadian farm, because we recognize that it is no use taking men who know nothing about agriculture and trying to make farmers of them, unless they know something about a farm first. We expect them to know about ploughing and other branches of farming. Q. Supposing there were 25 men at the Grey Nunnery who had originally been farmers and who wanted to use their convalescent period in learning a little more about scientific culture. Could you take those men for a few months? — A. We could, yes. Q. In the same way as they are now getting technical training in other lines ? — A. Provided they worked in the various departments, that is to say, be divided into what we may term the outside branches, such as mixed farming, with livestock as its chief industry; the horticultural department, which is largely given up to orchards, small fruits and vegetables, and our cereal department, which tests varieties of all kinds of crops, and, lastly, our poultry department. If a man wanted to learn something about poultry, for example, you could put him to work at that and give him practical experience. Q. What terms would you make for a man like that, who is in receipt of his pay and allowances, what would you charge him at Ste. Anne's? — A. As regards tuition, nothing. Q. What would it cost him for his board? — A. The regular charge made to others, $5 a week. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Do you think there would be any general desire on the part of the returned soldiers who have not previously been on the land to go on the land? — A. It depends upon their age and upon their previous training. By Mr. Bennett: Q. And where they were born? — A. Yes. You would find some who would like to go in for it. We have had about 150 of our lads go overseas. Some have been disabled and are coming back to continue their course. You will find some special men who will go through their four years' course and graduate. Take men without any previous experience, I think it would be a mistake to put them in any college first until you find out whether they like the life, and the only way to find out is to put them on a farm. Q. That is true. But my question was: Do you think they wovdd like the life? — A. I cannot say. You find some who do. Sir Herbert Ames has referred to the Khaki Club excursion to Macdonald College. By the Chairman: Q. How many men went? — A. 187. Q. You gave them a day at the college? — A. We gave them a day out there, and tried to entertain them as well as inform them. Q. Have you had any results from that excursion? — A. I have had one or two letters from some of those men, and I had the opportunity that day of talking to a number. We served them with a light lunch, and there were certain tables. I would go to a certain table and would ask the men what they were doing before the war. I must have spoken to about 20 men in that way. At one table they were all engaged in engineering; one was a locomotive engineer, another a stoker in the navy; all had had some experience in handling engines. I asked them what they would like to work at, 28277—29 [Dr. F. C. St.-B. Harrison.] 450 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS and the reply was that they would like to do something in the line of their former work. I said that the only thing I knew of for them, so far as agriculture was con- cerned, would be to go into what we might call agricultural engineering; that is to say, we are coming down to an era where we are using more and more the gasolene engine, the separator, the traction engine; and so on. There is a call for such men in the west. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. He would not be a farmer? — A. No, a specialist in that line. They are becoming numerous in Manitoba and Saskatchewan. By Mr. Bennett: Q. It is the individual factor in every case? — A. Absolutely. Q. You cannot force the men into farming. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. The statement has been made that the open air life at the front has created a desire for the country. Do you find any justification for that? — A. I have not seen it; I do not think the two things would follow with reference to my experience. Another lot of men that I happened to run across were a mixed lot. One had been farming in the West. He said to me : " What I have seen today makes me homesick, I want to get back to it." Amongst that batch of 200 I ran across one or two men like that who had been farming before. This man who had been farming in the West said that he had got homesick after seeing the cattle, and so on. Mr. Bennett : The smell of the land. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. The tendency is that a man wants to go back to his old associations? — A. That is my impression, from talking to about twenty of these men, I did not have much opportunity to meet more. 'As Mr. Bennett has remarked, what we have to do is to find out exactly what these men want to do, and if possible get them back into occupa- tions they have had before, or others of a like nature. By Mr. Bennett: Q. And your "think" would not be any better than anyone else's? — A. No. We are prepared to help in any way. The best thing would be, if you are going to try to educate them, and they know nothing about agriculture, to have central farms and a demonstration farm in that centre with a first-class man in charge. Q. It has been proposed that Western farmers should take these men as appren- tices for a year and pay them a reasonable wage, and at the end of that time a man could determine whether he has shown such aptitude as to enable one to say with certainty that he should go on the soil. Agriculture is becoming a skilled occupation, just as much so as typewriting or locomotive engineering? — A. Quite right. Mr. Sutherland : Are you talking about convalescents ? Mr. Bennett : Yes, and fit men. The Witness : Then of course there are a lot of other things we can help. For instance you want to make a man a specialist on horticulture, growing of fruit, that is one thing and vegetables and poultry, bee-keeping and farm mechanics, etc. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. That is very important? — A. Yes, and another in the manufacture of butter and cheese and other special lines, gardening By Mr. Bennett: Q. Truck gardening? — A. Yes, and also, which is closely allied to agriculture, the veterinary profession, if you can go along with it. Another man I ran across the other [Dr. F. C. St.-B. Harrison.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 451 day had some dental training? before enlisting and had lost an eye, and thought his eyesight was not sufficiently good to proceed with dentistry, and we turned him over to a veterinary surgeon, and he started this course. He is fitted up, and has some- thing which is agreeable to him, but the whole matter I think is a question of finding a suitable occupation for each man. Witness discharged. Lieut. -Colonel Mackenzie Forbes called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. What position do you occupy in connection with the Hospitals Commission? — A. A very anomalous one, sir. Q. What is it? — A. I was appointed by the Hospitals Commission, Medical Officer of "A" Unit. That is the Unit or Company of returned soldiers here. This nomination, or appointment, of course, had to be confirmed by the Militia Department. The Militia Department have failed to confirm the appointment, therefore, I have simply been acting as a superintendent for the Hospitals Commission, and my work is the re- organizing or re-equipping of the Grey Nuns Institution, which in the past has been a Convalescent Home; but which the Hospitals Commission had hoped to turn in^o an hospital for acute conditions. Q. Your present work then, I understand, is in equipping hospitals rather than running them? — A. Yes, because the Hospitals Commission has not yet undertaken the medical or surgical care of the sick- Q. In whose hands is the care of the sick at present? — A. The Canadian Army Medical Corps. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. You mean the care of the returned soldiers? — A. Both the returned and those that have not gone overseas. By the Chairman: Q. Had you anything to do with deciding the question whether the Grey Nuns should hereafter be used as a hospital for active cases? — A. No, sir. Q. I understand it will no longer be a convalescent home? — A. That depends on whether the Army Medical Corps decides on carrying out the plans of the M.H.C. Q. What difference does it make? — A. The Canadian Army Medical Corps, apparently, from the evidence given by Lieut. Colonel Patch, have decided that sick soldiers should be treated in the civil hospitals. Q. That the wounded from overseas should go to existing civil hospitals? — A. Yes. Q. And the view of the Hospitals Commission was what?— A. The Hospitals Commission were converting the Grey Nuns Convalescent Home into an hospital for active surgical conditions. Q. If that is done will the criticism which we have heard here about the room in the basement being unsanitary cease to obtain? — A. Yes. Q. Because the basement will not be used? — A. Not for the purpose for which it is used now. Q. Are the remaining floors of that building in your judgment suitable for an active military hospital? — A. In many respects. Q. In many ways not suitable?— A. They are suitable as far as the air space and sunlight are concerned. Q. What unsuitability is there?— A. I do not personally approve of the Grey Nuns institution being used for an hospital. 28277— 29i [Lieut.-Colonel Mackenzie Forbes.] 452 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. On what grounds? — A. I consider the building is too old and it is question- able whether it is not more or less dangerous as regards fire. I do not think that we can afford to use any building that is questionable. Q. You would not put our patients up three or four stories without sufficient fire escapes? — A. The Hospitals Commission have planned a very good fire escape, but even with that fire escape I do not think it is wise. Q. You think the seriously ill should be in an hospital where they are pretty near the ground floor? — A. No, not necessarily. A more modern and safer building is all that is required. Q. Do you visit that hospital? Are you superintending the medical treatment? — A. No, not at all. Q. You have, then, personally, no medical cases under your care? — A. None whatever. Q. What is your information regarding the present system of housing invalids and convalescents. Could it be improved on? — A. I think so. Q. In what way? — A. I think the care of the returned soldiers is a very big proposition and has to be studied very carefully. My view is that a small committee ought, originally, to have been appointed to consider what was the best thing to do, generally, for the returned soldiers. I think that committee should have been a com- mittee of experts. It should have been a committee whose members had been chosen because they knew all about hospitals. They should have been chosen because they knew both how hospitals should be organized and administered and also how the ill and wounded should be cared for. I think that one of the first things which this committee would have done would have been to seriously consider what numbers of returned wounded might be expected, and (1) what accommodation was available, also, (2) what accommodation could be made available. In considering what accommodation could be made available, they would naturally have weighed the advantages to be derived by organizing an hospital composed of temporary huts as opposed to the present scheme of leasing public buildings and converting them into hospitals and convalescent homes. In this consideration also the advantages of keeping all returned soldiers together in one settlement would have engaged the serious attention of the commission. By Mr. Pardee: Q. On a large area? — A. Yes, on a large area, some huts for those seriously ill, some for those convalescing, and some for those waiting for artificial limbs. All under one command and in one place. Q. You would be in favour of constructing, de novo, special buildings, rather than renting buildings and adapting them ? — A. Very decidedly, if financial considera- tions permit. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Did I understand the witness to state that in his view it would be better to have all the returned soldiers come to one place — that is all the invalids? — A. All for this district. I am talking only of the District I know about. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. This place would be in the country rather than in the city ?— A. Unfortunately, you could not have it actually in the country. Q. Outside the crowded part of the city?— A. It should be as close as possible to Montreal for the reason that you should have eminent medical specialists in attend- ance, and you cannot expect such to visit a hospital 10, 15 or 20 miles from Montreal. Q. Would you suggest that this be on the Island of Montreal ?— A. Not necessarily on the Island of Montreal, some place immediately adjacent to Montreal, as Montreal West, across the Eiver say at St. Lambert, or even as far as Lachine, but I consider that it's easy accessibility to Montreal to be of prime importance. Q. I understand a proposal has been made from St. Lambert ? — A. I do not know. [Lieut.-Colonel Mackenzie Forbes.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 453 By Mr. Bennett: Q. I take it you think there should be single control? — A. Yes, decidedly. Q. And your opinion is that somebody answerable to a commission should have control? — A. Yes. Q. Not necessarily the present Hospitals Commission, but some authority? — A. Yes. Q. You think it should be an independent organization rather than attached to a Department? — A. Yes. Q. That is your view? — A. Yes. Q. As a matter of fact you went overseas? — A. Yes. Q. Have you practised you profession here for a long time? — A Yes, 19 years. Q. You were already a member of the Canadian Army Medical Corps when the war broke out in 1914 ? — A. Yes. Q. How long were you on active service? — A. Sixteen (16) months on active service. Q. You came back and were appointed to this position and it was not confirmed? —A. Yes. Q. Have you had an actual knowledge of the working conditions at the front? — Yes. Q. You were in what unit? — A. No. 1 Canadian General Hospital. Q. And you have had all kinds of surgical patients and even ordinary medical cases? — A. Yes. Q. In the light of that experience and with your knowledge of conditions as they are here now, speaking as an ex-C.A.M.C. officei^ what do you think as to the best way this problem can be worked out? — A. First of all I must say that I am still an officer of the C.A.M.C.. My view is that in dealing with so important a question we ought to have a committee of experts to organize and experts to administer our hospitals. Q. And speaking as a C.A.M.C. man and having regard for your knowledge of all the circumstances and conditions what do you think is the better way to work out this problem; put the C.A.M.C. solely in charge of the working end of it, or try to work it out with the best medical talent you can get in the country? — A. I think it is better to have soldiers in command — when I say soldiers I mean C.A.M.C. officers, but I think these officers ought to be permitted to make use of civil surgeons in order that we may get the best results. I think that it is wiser to give over the care of the returned .soldiers to a permanent committee of experts (such as was done in the case of i)ensions) instead of allowing the C.A.M.C. to care for them, because the C.A.M.C. is a very different organization to-day from it will be when the war ceases. As soon as the war ceases the C.A.M.C. officers will naturally feel their duty has been done, and they will return to their practices which they have left to serve their country. Q. In many instances at a very great sacrifice? — A. Yes, and naturally and wisely I think they will go back to their practices, and, consequently, we have got to have hospitals, which, although still semi-military in character, are going to be in existance after the war. Q. And you would use the services of the medical men in the country regardless of the C.A.M.C? — A. Yes, but I would have a C.A.M.C. man in charge and not do as the Commission Hospitals did. \\z., have their discipline in charge of an outside organization. Place the C.A.M.C. officer in charge because we know a man must be head in his own household, and the hospital is the household of the doctors and the patients. Q. But these C.A.M.C. officers would be attached to this organization? — A. Yes, lent, or seconded, by the C.A.M.C. Q. Take your own case as one in point? — A. Yes. [Lieut.-Colonel Mackenzie Forbes.] 454 SPECIAL COMMITTEE—C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Pardee: Q. Do you think the medical end of the work of the hospitals ought to he in charge of the C.A.M.C. and the balance in charge of the Military Hospitals Com- mission? — A. No, I am very strongly against the idea. Q. Perhaps you have answered this question already, but I want the point emphasized for my own enlightenment. Do you think the C.A.M.C. could carry on the work better, or otherwise, than the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. No, sir. I oppose the idea of Militia Department control for various reasons, but the principal one is that the C.A.M.C. to-day is very different from what the C.A.M.C. will be when the war has ceased. Q. I am talking about present day conditions. What would you say as to these? — A. The C.A.M.C. as it is to-day has a great many very good officers, but an outside organization might also secure the services of a great many civilian practitioners. Q. You say the C.A.M.C. has not yet secured the services of every surgeon? — A. No. For instance, when I was asked to organize for the Military Hospitals Com- mission a hospital for active surgical and medical affections in the Grey Nuns build- ing, I organized a hospital, a semi-military hospital, whose personnel, I think, would be unsurpassed in Montreal, because I was permitted not only to choose certain C.A.M.C. officers, whom I considered to be of advantage to us, but also a great many men who did not belong to the C.A.M.C, and I secured the very best men from the Koyal Victoria, from the General and from each of our hospitals. By the Chairman: Q. You were able to exclude such C.A.M.C. men as you did not want? — A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Then, your idea is this, that there should be now commenced a combining of these two forces to meet your needs? — A. I consider that there should be appointed a small commission, or committee of experts, to decide upon the future policy for the care of the returned wounded soldiers. By the Chairman: Q. At Ottawa? — A. I think the headquarters of such a committee should be at Ottawa. I think such an organization should make plans, for the treatment of these returned soldiers. Q. Both medically and otherwise ?— A. Medically and otherwise, and that the medical part of such committee should be composed of medical men or men who have spent a great part of their lives actively engaged in hospital organization and manage- ment. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. What membership would you give it? — A. A membership of six or eight at the most. Q. What experts would you select? — A. For example, in administering hospitals we should have men who are " hospital men " — men who have been actively engaged in hospital work. Q. You would not have all the members of the committee doctors? — A. I would have at least four medical me;a, because we are dealing with wounded and returned soldiers. Q. Would this committee not also be dealing with the subject of vocational train- ing? — A. A membership of at least fifty per cent (50%) of the committee should be either medical men, or men who have spent their lives at hospital work. For in- stance, in the United States they have professional medical superintendents, men who make a profession of being medical superintendents in the hospitals. I should say that such men would be very valuable. They may not of necessity be medical men, although they might be those who had begun life as medical men and found that the [Lieut.-Colonel Mackenzie Forbes.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 455 administrative part of medical life suited them best, so had given up the practice of medicine and became administrators of hospitals. It might be well to have two such medical administrators also two other doctors who had great knowledge of the care of the sick, and yet were not administrators. Q. That would be four? — A, For the others you might consider two civilians interested in the rehabilitation of returned soldiers, and lastly two business men. Bj/ Mr. Bennett: Q. A sanitary engineer would be a very good man, for one? — A. I should think quite possibly a very good man. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Should this committee be appointed by the Government? — A. That is a matter of detail. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Did I understand there is no doubt in your mind that whoever is responsible for the institution should have supreme control of the personnel of the staff? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Whether they be C.A.M.C. men or any other class? — A. Yes. Q. But you believe that the C.A.M.C. men, because they have been trained, are especially good men for that class of work? — A. I think that many of them are parti- cularly able men. » Q. Now, the medical work that is being performed for the returned soldier, is that done by the Department of Militia, or is it under the control of the Hospitals Commission ? — A. It is under the control of the Department of Militia. Q. And these medical men are all in the military service at the present time ? — A. Yes, sir, the Military service. Q. There is no civilian called in? — A. No, sir. Q, They are given certain rank according to the length of service? — A. I am not able to answer that question, because I am an overseas man, and I do not know how things are done here. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Have you anji;hing to suggest whereby we might better the treatment of the returned soldier? — A. I hoard Colonel Patch this morning say that his suggestion was to get an immediate determination as to who really has control of this work. I second that statement- That is the first thing to do. For Heaven's sake settle the question of control. It is not fair to the sick men or to the medical officers to have this divided authority where nobody knows where he stands. Q. Is there any other suggestion? — A. The second thing I would suggest is that a committee of experts should be appointed, as I have already suggested. Q. That is the second suggestion. Now, is there anything in the matter of detail ? A. As to detail, the first thing that I would suggest is that you ought to have ^lilitary Hospitals, because you practically are witliout these at present in this District. You can begin to-morrow and make either the Loyola College (Drummond St.) or the Grey Nuns a Military Hospital; but, you certainly ought to have military hospitals in this District. Q. Now, give us your fourth suggestion? — A. !My fourth suggestion is that the military hospital be placed under the command of a medical officer. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Are not these hospitals under the command of military medical officers now ? — A. No. Q. Have all the hospitals a combatant officer in command ? — A. I will tell you about " A " Unit. I was not in this country when the Military Hospitals Commission was [Lieut. -Colonel RIackenzie Forbes.] 456 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS founded in 1915, but I know that this Commission have not yet taken over the medical care of our returned soldiers, although they took over the care of discipline in the spring of 1916. When the Command was formed it was organized as a regiment with units or companies in various provinces. The company in this Division is called " A " Unit. Now that company is in command of a combatant officer. By Mr.' Bennett: Q. He is a non-medical officer? — A. Yes, a non-medical officer. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Of what rank? — A. He happens to be a Major now, but not long ago he was a Captain. Q. But he is in command of the Unit ? — A. Yes, of " A " Unit. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Are you alluding to Major Hall? — A. Yes, he is in command of the patients in the hospitals. Now, it is not fair to ask a general or a full colonel or a lieutenant- colonel to work in a hospital with the soldiers under the jurisdiction of a captain. It does not work, and it cannot work. Q. In other words, the major commands the whole Unit? — A. Yes he commands the Unit. It is perfectly right for him to command the men of this Unit while they are housed in his own barracks. When he has a sick soldier, however, let him send him to an hospital where there is a medical officer in command. Q. Has this combatant officer command over the medical officers as well? — A. He is over the men that the medical officer is in charge of. This is the control com- plained of. Q. And does he control the medical officers themselves? — A. Well, no and yes. It is a very difficult question to answer in concise form. Q. He takes the same position then as the medical superintendent of a hospital, he is in charge of the management of the institution? — A. Yes, but the medical superintendent does not control the patients in a civil hospital. Q. Has this officer charge of the patients? — A. Yes, and the orderlies also. It is perfectly right that there should be some organization of the returned soldiers with an officer in charge of it in Montreal and every other Military District, but this officer should not be quartered in a hospital but outside in his own barracks. If one of his men is taken ill, that man should be sent to the hospital, where he will be under the jurisdiction of the medical officer, whilst he is ill. Q. Do not the medical officers have control of the orderlies in the hospitals at all?— A. No, sir. ■Q. Not even of the ward orderlies? — A. I believe not. Mr. Bennett: Not as it stands now. Hon. Mr. Daniel: I think they should. By Eon. Mr. Daniel: Q. You have been overseas, and you were at the Staples Hospital, were you not? — A. I was first at Salisbury Plains, and afterwards at Etaples, France. Q. Was there a combatant Officer in charge of the Etaples Hospital? — A. No, sir, decidedly not. Q. The hospital was under the control of the Medical Officer? — A. Yes, sir. The same is always true in military service. Q. Colonel Maclaren, was it not? — A. Yes. Q. He had complete control of the patients, orderlies and everything else? What was the reason the same course was not adopted in Canada? — A. I cannot understand why the Military Hospitals Commission should have changed this military procedure. /Lieut. -Colonel Mackenzie Forbes.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 457 By the Chairman: Q. Were any of the men in the Etaples Hospital convalescent, or were they all active treatment cases? — A. Some were very serious cases. Others were there only until they could be sent back to the front. By Mr. Bennett: Q. How did you classify them? — A. We called them Class A, B, and C. By the Chairman: Q. It was really a collecting hospital in the sense that a man who was in for tt long illness was sent to England? — A. If his illness was mild enough to permit of him travelling. Class A, for example, comprised cases of a serious nature and a great many were unfit to travel. Q. Was there any trouble in enforcing discipline? — A. No, sir. Q. Class C was light cases? — A. Yes, men who were walking about all the time like the convalescent cases here. Q. Do you think the maintenance of discipline was as difficult as at the Grey Nuns Hospital, Montreal? — A. Yes, it was quite as difficult. By Mr. Bennett: Q. There is no large city like Montreal there? — A. That is perfectly true, but there were other adverse conditions. Q. There was no drinking there? — A. I beg your pardon, sir, there was. Q. Liquor was not as easily obtained? — A. It was not as easily obtained, but it could be obtained. I was at Etaples a long time and know something about the conditions there. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. I understand that under the Government of France, save during medical treatment, the patient is under military command entirely? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Until the liquidation of his pension and his transference to civil life. You are not advocating that here the treatment of the returned soldier should be absolutely under the control of the C. A. M. C? — A. No, rather the opposite. I think that there shovdd be a re-organized and smaller hospitals commission. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Do the Military Hospitals here carry out the same practice that obtains in France? — A. I have never seen the French Military Hospitals there. As we have said, instead of having a military hospital in this District, in Canada our soldiers, who are seriously ill, are sent to the civil hospitals. We were told this morning that in this district there are two military hospitals, but one of them, you will remember, was at St. Johns, in the Province of Quebec, in which there are probably 10, 20 or 30 beds — I have not seen it. The hospitals in this district are really civil hospitals which are very good ones. Q. You do not know how it is with the other districts? — A. No. The present system is good in many ways, but the accommodation is too small, in this district, to look after our returned men, if we have a number of them suddenly sent to Canada. We ought to have a military hospital for active cases in this District to provide for duch enventuality. Q. Is it not that which they are providing for in the Grey Nuns? — A. Yes, this was commenced there, but the question came up "who is in. control", and, while waiting to find out who does rule, this work of forming a military hospital has been stopped. J^y judgment is that we ought to get a military hospital as quickly as we can. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. Going back to my question, I do not know whether I misunderstand you, or you misunderstand my question. I thought from your arguments you were in favour [Lieut.-Colonel Mackenzie Forbes.] 458 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETVE^S'ED SOLDIERS of the treatment of the soldier, where he was receiving treatment, being under the superintendent of the Army Medical Corps, who should have absolute control over him? — A. No, not necessarily, but 1 do think that if a soldier is in hospital', he should be under the control of the Medical Officer in charge of the hospital and not under the control of a combatant Officer, as now obtains in our convalescent homes. Q. The Chief of the Army Medical Service should be the Officer of the Commis- sion? — A. No, I do not go that far, Q. In France and amongst the French, from the reception of his wound to the end of his treatment, he is entirely under control of the Army ? — A. All I can tell you is about the care of our soldiers in France. I do not know anything about the service of the Army Medical Corps of the Government of France. Witness discharged. Dr. J. E. Byers, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. You are in charge of the Laurentian Inn iledieal Sanitarium at Ste. Agathe, Que., are you not? — 'A. I am in charge of the Laurentide Inn Military Sanatorium and the Lauren,tian Sanitarium at Ste. Agathe des Monts. Q. You are in charge of both of them? — A. Yes. Q. Both of these are for the use of the tubercular patients? — A. Yes. Q. Are you the officer under the control of the Military Hospitals Commission or are you a member of the Army Medical Corps? — A. I am a member of the A.M.C. Q. Will you tell us about the care and treatment of your men at Ste. Agathe, especially as to what you do w ith them while they are under training in the Sanitarium towards fitting them for their return to civil life? — A. Mr. Chairman, on March 15, 19'7, I prepared a short report of the inception of the work at Ste. Agathe and of the progress made to date, including some statistics I have, which with your approval I will submit for your information as follows: " Mr. Chairman and Gentlemesn : — " I have the honour to submit the following report upon the reception, care, treatment, training and re-education of tuberculous troops of the Canadian Expeditionaiy Forces stationed at Ste. Agathe des Monts in the Laurentian Sanitarium, and the Laurentide Inn Military Sanatorium. " The first military patient was received into the Laurentian Sanitarium in February, 1915, upon the recommendation of the Canadian Patriotic Fund Com- inittte, and since then 266 officers, nursing-sisters, non-commissioned officers and men have been admitted and treated for variable lengths of time, as shown by the attached medical reports of the two sanatoria above named. " The Laurentian Society for the Treatment and Control of Tuberculosis seeing the necessity of providing accommodation for tuberculous soldiers and knowing the limitations of the aceommodation in Canada decided to devote half the beds of the Laurentian Sanitarium at Ste. Agathe to the needs of the soldiers afflicted with pulmonary disease. In the fall of 1915 the Sanitarium increased their beds by an additional 25 for this purpose, making a total of 40 beds for military patients. " In December, 1915, I received instructions from the A.D.M.S., M.D. No. 4, to convert the Laurentide Inn at Ste. Agathe, which had been offered by D. Lome McGibbon, Esq., to the Military Hospitals Commission for the purpose of a sanatorium, into one, and this institution was opened as the Laurentide Inn Military Sanatorium, with a complete staff, and 30 beds on the 1st day of January, 1916. This Sanatorium received 20 patients from the Laurentian .Dr. J. R. Byers.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 459 Sanitarium on the 3rd of January, 1916, and by May, 191G, it was deemed advis- able to increase the beds to 60. In the fall of 1916, an infirmary for bed-cases was added with sleeping porch accommodation for 10 additional patients, making the total accommodation 70. " During January, 1917, the Laurentian Sanitarium was subsidized by the Military Hospitals Commission, $500, to enable it to add 10 additional beds, making a present total of 120 beds for tuberculous soldiers in Ste. Agathe des Monts. " The foregoing beds, being available in going Sanatoria, were able not only to care for the soldiers from the Fourth Military District, but in addition many from the Fifth, Sixth and others. Only on one occasion was it impossible to receive a patient, and that lasted but a few days and caused no actual delay. "Management of Sanatoria at Ste. Agathe des Monts. "The Laurentian Sanitarium is operated by the Laurentian Society of the Treatment and Control of Tuberculosis, who are acting as contractors to the Militai'y Hospitals Commission and receive oiflcers, non-commissioned offi- cers, nursing-sisters and men ; board, lodge, give medical and nursing attentions, supply drugs, and pay for laundry at a charge of $10.50 per capita by week. " The Laurentide Inn Militarj-^ Sanatorium (with 30 furnished beds and furniture, dishes, etc., was taken over from IMr. McGibbon, and all necessary additions, furnishings, and equipment added by the Military Hospitals Com- mission, and the Department of Militia and Defence of Canada. The Sana- torium is given over (outside of the medical and nursing department) to a contractor who furnishes board, lodging, attendance, and laundry at a charge of $1.29 per diem per capita. The contractor is directly responsible to the jNIilitary Hospitals Commission through the Medical Officer in charge." By Mr. Bennett: Q. Who charges that and what is his mai-gin of profit? — A. The contractor makes the charge — what his profit is I have never been able to learn. The original stock was supplied by the Commission but the contractor has to maintain and make good the wear and tear. We were satisfied that he had a sufficient supply to start with. Q. But he works under your supervision? — A. Absolutely. Q. You are there every day? — A. Yes. '''All accounts and vouchers pass tlirough the Medical Officer who is responsible for their correctness. In both Sanatoria perfect harmony in opera- tion has existed, and the service has been excellent as manifested by the lack of complaints by the patients undei' treatment. " The Laurentian Sanitarium having been carefully designed by experts, the question of sanitation did not arise. In the Laurentian Inn Sanatorium, however, owing to sudden congestion there were matters regarding sewage dis- posal, conversion of floors, roofs, cellars, heating, water supply, dish-washing, fumigation, etc., which required attention, and I desire to pay a grateful tribute to the Military Hospitals Commission for the careful attention given to my many suggestions, and for the prompt manner in which the necessary details were immediately remedied, and the protection given their charges. Both institutions were recently inspected by the Military Hospitals Commission's Medical Officer in charge of Inspections, who expressed his complete satisfaction with the sanitary arrangements. " The location of both Sanatoria is ideal, both are situated on rising ground and overlook the town. The soil is sandy, well drained, and the climatic con- ditions are probably the best in Eastern Canada, as the altitude is 1,400 feet, [Dr. J. R. Byers.] 460 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.P.— RETURNED SOLDIERS mid-seasons short, winters dry, and svunmers cool. This climatic asset com- bined with the 'Sanatorium environment' has in the past achieved excellent results in the treatment of pulmonary disease. I do not hesitate to state that the Military Hospitals Commission have acted very wisely in placing their tuberculosis patients from the eastern districts for the present at least in the Laurentide Mountains." By the Chairman: Q. Do you keep the men in one building and the officers in the other? — A. So far we have had the officers in the Laurentian because it is a mixed building, taking civilians as well. It is nicely equipped and the officers have been perfectly satisfied. Then as to the question of educating the tuberculous soldier, the Sanatoria are considered not only as institutions for the treatment of pulmonary disease, but as schools for educating the patients in all matters pertaining to the welfare of the health. From the moment of entrance the patient is made to feel that an attitude of physician and patient exists, and the soldiers confidence gained. All necessary means of protection are offered to the patient and he is immediately instructed in the necessity of sanitation, and the management of his diseased condition. It is remarkable how quickly the patient adopts the practice of these simple sanitary precautions, and it speaks well for the men to state that only one has been discharged for disregarding the sanitary rules of the sanatoria. By Mr. Ross {Middlesex) : Q. What percentage of your tuberculous patients come from France? — A. From overseas 72 and 72 and from camps 48 and 109. By the Chairman: Q. If I understood you rightly you say 85 per cent of your patients have never been to France at all? — A. I have not worked it out. I have not the figures of how many have crossed the channel. Q. I wish you would let us know how many tubercular cases have been across the channel and how many never got across ? — A. Yes, I will procure this information and send it. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Are the majority of your cases in the early stages? — A. No, sir, I regret to state that the majority are in the moderately advanced stage. " The principles of treatment, and their necessity of application are care- fully and simply explained to the patient, rules and limitations are set for his individual case, dietetic and bathing routine given, careful examination of the body systems, and errors where possible rectified especially as regards the alimen- tary and respiratory canal, teeth and nervous system. The future is placed before the patient and he is encouraged to fight along the quiet lines as laid down in the code of treatment, and all things done to make him feel that he has not only fallen on a health giving place, but amongst friends. As the treatment of pulmonary disease covers every human system no point in the investigation of the patient's physical status is wilfully left unexplored. " The treatment of pulmonary disease requires that the patient be kept in a state of surgical rest during the acute toxic stage, and that a carefully regu- lated amount of increasing daily exercise be indulged in as the passive or arrested stage of the disease is reached. It has been my experience that unless some mental diversion be allowed the patient, he will become introspective, neuras- thenic, and depressed. This was found to be markedly so in the soldier-patient who became irritable in the rest stage of treatment, and tended to become care- less and perhaps dissolute in the passive stage. To overcome this I appealed [Dr. J. R. Byers.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 461 to the Military Hospitals Commission in 19.1p6 for a workshop in which arrested cases might find enjoyable employment w-hen they were tired of walking or per- haps drifting into places that were out of bounds. This api>eal was immediately acted upon by the Commission and the vocational training department of the Commission at once instituted an excellent and fully equipped workshop with instructors at the Laurentide Inn. In addition a series of graded vocational occupations suitable for the tuberculosis subject were arranged upon, so that it is possible to give even the most delicate some interesting work which helps not only to kill the monotonous moments, but adds greatly to his mental and moral calibre." As an evidence of the rapidity with which some of these men progress in tlie work of re-education, I might say that one young man after three months training is able to act as my stenographer and typewriter very satisfactorily. That shows the psychical value that was established through the great work that the vocational training depart- ment has been able to do in connection with tubercular soldiers. By Mr. Bennett: Q. How old would that stenographer be? — A. Twenty -five or twenty-six years. Q. He has a chance then? — A. He is getting on fine. By the Chairman: Q. So that you are not only restoring the men to health but you are also utiliz- ing their spare time to give them vocational training? — A. When they come to the stage where they can stand it. Q. And not only as a means of keeping them out of mischief? — A. As a means of treatment. Q. And equipping them for their future life? — A. Because this exercise is of such variety that it replaces what we formerly used for walking exercises. At the same time they are much happier because their minds are occupied. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Do you have much outdoor exercise? — A, It is all outdoors, the whole cure is in the fresh air, twenty-four hours a day. They sleep in well ventilated rooms. In our climate it is well not to sleep in the open, but in a well ventilated room. There was a tendency on the part of the men to go out of bounds, but I suggested that they should furnish me with a moving picture machine, which was done. Two film exchanges generously offered to send up a show twice a week. We can punish the men now for indiscretion by cutting out the " movies." By Mr. Pardee: Q. How many men did you say you had? — A. We have 120 beds available, and today we have ninety odd beds full. Q. Can bed cases work? — A. We have been giving the bed cases light work to do; they have turned out embroidery, needlework, baskets, and other things that men could rest in a chair and do. It is a nervous relief when they are able to produce something. Q. Have you any table of your results of treatment? — A. Perhaps the following table will be of interest. (Reads.) [Dr. J. R. Byers.] 462 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Classification of the discharged cases in: — Laurentian Laurentide Inn Sanitarium. Sanatorium. No. % No. % Incipient 25—27 17—14 Moderately advanced 64 — 68 73 — 62 Advanced 3 — 3 28—23 Non-tuberculous 1 — 2 1 — 1 Totals 93—100 119—100 Q. Will you state again the length of treatment given to the discharged case A. This table will give the data. (Reads.) Table showing the length of treatment received by patients: — ■Laurentian Laurentide Inn Sanitarium. Sanatorium. No. % No. % 1 — 30 days 10 — 9 47—38 30 — 60 " IS — 20 19 — 16 60—90 " 15—16 20—16' 90 days and over 50—55 33—30 Totals 93—100 119—100 2-. When you consider that six months is the maximum period, you will see that the large percentage, 55 per cent in the Laurentian Sanitarium and 30 per cent in the Laurentide Inn, took the amount of treatment offered them by the Board which gave them this opportunity to diminish their disability. By the Chairman: Q. Do I understand you to say that a very large number of men will not remain long enough to get thorough treatment ? — A. I have that information in another state- ment, which is as follows- (Reads) : Table showing the manner in which the patients were discharged. Laurentian Sanitarium. No. % Patients who left by signing a release as H.Q. 60-4-8. 9/9/'15 30—32 Discharged for bad conduct and crime under H.Q. 649-1-6 4 — 4 Transfers 27 — 30 Completed treatment , 32 — 34 Totals 92—100 Laurentide Inn Sanatorium. No. % This shows that 32 per cent in the Laurentian Sanitarium and 46 per cent in the Laurentide Inn left by signing a release. Q. Do I understand that if a man desires he can leave your institution before he is cured? — A. Under the authority mentioned, any man can sign his release and demand that he leave the institution. By Mr. Bennett: Q. At any time? — A. At any time. He then reports to his O.C. and there his discharge is carried out. By the Chairman: Q. If ajuan has been sent up to you suffering from pulmonary tuberculosis, and after being with you two or three months, he wants to be discharged, whatever the result might be on his life and health you are compelled to discharge him? — A. If he demands it. [Dr. J. R. Byers.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 463 By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Is not that the condition with a patient in any hospital in the country, outside of soldiers entirely? — A. He is a free agent, being 21 years of age. The Chairman : But he is still a soldier and the Government can retain a man as a soldier for six months after the war. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. These men are still soldiers? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. I would like to ask whether, in the interest of the public health of Canada, it would not be better for men who are suffering from tuberculosis to be retained by the military authorities until they are cured rather than be permitted to go out at their own desire? — A. You have asked a very complicated question. From the point of view of the treatment of tuberculosis, you cannot cure a case of lung disease if you do not get the co-operation of the patient, and you cannot force this co-operation. If a man refuses, and is forced to take the treatment against his will, he will be indiffer- ent as to the result. It is will power that wins this game; the patient must discipline himself. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Have you had many cases of men sent to Ste. Agathe since the war broke out who have come back cured? — A. A very small proportion are fit. I have the figures here. They are as follows. (Reads) : The result obtained by treatment in cases discharged up to December 31, 1916. Arrested disease. . . Apparently arrested. Quiescent Improved *No improvement.. , Died Totals Laurentian Laurentide Inn Sanitarium. Sanatorium. No. % No. 9f •2— 2 5— 4 27—30 19—16 23—24 17—14 25—28 38—32 13—14 39—33 3— 2 1— 1 92—100 119—100 •Under the heading "no improvement" are included those cases who remained less than 30 days for treatment, as such a short stay is of practically no benefit, and are* usually classified as "untreated." Q. If a man submits to the rules of the institution, and puts up the fight that should be put up, can he be cured ? — A. Ten years ago I sat out myself and took this cure. I can say that I am cured ; I have had no symptoms for ten years. But we have 52 per cent of the cases that have been treated in the Laurentian Sanitarium in the past 8 years who are back in their daily vocations ; we know this. By Mr. Pardee: Q. That ratio could be kept up with returned soldiers? — A. Yes, if we can get the same co-operation as from civilians. They are being paid $1.10 a day and all expenses to take the treatment that other men are mortgaging their homes, or living on the bounty of other people, to take ; and the civilians take it. Mr Bennett : And many of the soldiers will not take it. By the Chairman: Q. What percentage of the cases that have gone to the sanitarium have left of their own accord before reaching the stage that you woiild be willing to let them go? — A. 38 per cent. [Dr. J. R. Byers.] 464 SPECIAL COMMITTEE—C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Is there any advantage then, so far as the state is concerned, in sending a man to you, and having you keep him for six months, and then discharging him in the same condition? — A. The educational value is wondei'ful. In a day or two we have them observing the sanitary conditions perfectly. Q. Do you have any trouble in making the returned soldiers obey the rules of the sanitarium regarding spitting? — A. I have only had to discharge one man for absolute violations of the rules of sanitation, and he was a Greek. Whether or not he did not understand, I cannot say; but I got a Greek to translate the instructions to him. I went over them with him again and again hoping he would understand; but when the man did not obey, his mates forced me to discharge him. That speaks very well for the others when only one man had to be discharged. Q. Then your conclusion as a medical man is that such a large percentage of the men who come to you with fair prospect of recovery insist on leaving before a curt is effected? — A. Undoubtedly, because we consider six months is the minimum time needed for an incipient case. Q. If a man has a wife and family do you bring them up to Ste. Agathe while he is in the sanatorium? — A. Not unless we think he is likely to die, in that event I like to have a member of the family there. It comes down to a sentimental issue and 1 think it is right to have a relative there, but as a rule we do not like too much visiting. It breaks the routine of the institution. I made lots of changes in treat- ment. We never gave a leave of absence, but when a soldier woiild get a piece of bad news, if we allowed him to go down to Montreal for 24 hours I found it did not do him as much harm as to stay there and worry. He could go down and settle the issue. I found it much better. By Mr. Pardee: ' Q. Would you say that, outside of the educational training that the soldiers receive at your sanatorium it is worth while to treat tuberculosis patients there? — A. Oh, yes, undoubtedly it is. Q. There is a greater modicum of good, allowing them to be treated in that way, eliminating the educational question altogether, rather than allowing them to go? — A. Yes, absolutely. We have discharged 55 per cent from one institution and 30 per cent from another of the patients, and I believe we benefited them in a manner that will last. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. You effected a cure? — A. No, that is a fallacious term. We look after a man and put him in as good a condition as we can but he has to take care of his health. Last week I met on the street a man who had 100 per cent disability, he took his treat- ment, suffered an operation while under treatment, and he is out now and working, he has gained five pounds since he came to the city, and gets his meals at regular intervals, goes to bed regularly, and he belongs to one of the 50 per cent. By Mr. Pardee: Q. You say it is of benefit to the community that these men should go on being treated?— A. Yes. Q. And that term lasts six months? — A. That is the minimum. Q. You spoke of 38: that is the minimum treatment of how long? — A. Do you mean of these men that quit? Q. Yes? — A. In one to 30 days there was 9 per cent. Q. What do you mean by that? — A. Those men only put in 30 days or less under treatment. Nine per cent were discharged under the short treatment. Q. Would you say there was a marked improvement in this 9 per cent? — A. No, we did not enter them in our records for 30 days at leasl;. Some of them did improve. Q. That treatment is wasted? — A. No. [Dr. J. R. Byers.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 465 Q. I am talking of the thirty days' treatment, as to arresting the disease? — A. In tuberculosis 30 days' treatment is practically no good. Q. What is the minimum? — A. Six months. Q. Outside of that you would not say it amounted to anything? — A. We believe six months is the minimum. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. You have advanced cases as well as incipient? — A. Yes. Three per cent in one, and 23 in the other. Q. Of what? — A. Of those cases we have discharged. I am reporting on cases received and discharged, completed cases. Q. Are those 3 per cent of cases advanced? — A. I can say that the advanced cases never showed improvement. If they did it was only temporary. Q. You discharged 3 per cent of them and they were discharged unimproved? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. There will be with you after the war in all probability a certain number of chronic cases? — A. Yes. Q. What do you recommend can be done by the State with these chronic cases? — A. That is the problem which we are discussing at present, and you have heard Dr. Harris from Macdonald College in regard to the question. You can put men on a farm for a year and endeavour to make them farmers. We have an ideal colonization scheme and we have to find out how many men will accept it. The proposition is to have a colony, take advantage of a suitable tract of land of a large acreage, and have a farm and an infirmary, shops', etc., and have a street drawn across the property, on which would be constructed houses and bungalows and in this settlement we would h'ave an infirmary and houses and shops. These men we are after do not want to leave their families, and if they go back to the environments from which they came they would probably wreck their families. If they could only move their families up to this colony they might be quite content to come and take up a tract of land and do the best they could. They would be under the instruction of an agricultural super- intendent. The idea is to keep them in the open air all day long and keep them working and under medical control, and not let them over-do it or under-do it. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Your farm would have to be in some climate suitable for men in their condi- tion? — A. Yes. The principal thing is the environment of friends. We have thou- sands of acres on the Laurentians which are ideal for this condition, and you have in Ontario on Lake Muskoka suitable locations. You have it in every province. There is not a country so beautifully laid out for it as Canada. By Mr. Bennett: Q. There is a sanitorium in Calgary placed there on account of altitude? — A. Yes, and there is one near New York and they are getting good results, and also at Saranac Lake and Muskoka and other places. The sanatoria environment is of the utmost importance: not so much the altitude. By the Chairman: Q. You recommend the farm colony for your irreducible minimum of chronic cases? — A. That is the ideal if yoii can get them to accept it, but when it comes down to the practical question we may have another proposition at some time, and I wish to go on record as saying that while we are after running a sanatorium we are only beat" ing the drum at the front door. You have to get at the social conditions. You have to go through the communij:y with social workers weeding out these cases and bringing the patients to the proper places and treating them. 28277—30 [Dr. J. R. Byers.] 466 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Bennett: Q. And you have to deal with the sanitary conditions in addition to what may be done by sending out the dragnet and gathering up the patients ; you have to go further than that and go to the man's house? — A. That is part of the social workers job. The social worker is the big element in stamping out the unsanitary conditions. By the Chairman: Q. In connection with the statistics of No. 4 District, there appeared to us to be a very unusual proportion of tubercular cases? — A. 54. Q. That is double the average, taking- the total number of cases as compared with the total number of tubercular cases. Can you give us any reason why there should be more than the average amount of tubercular cases in the hospitals of No. 4 division? — A. I think in a way it is the geographical location and the matter of preparedness. We knew there would be a number of tubercular cases coming back and we realized the condition and we started to prepare beds and keep a margin to the good all the way through, and the result is that this province, particularly the 4th Division, has been handling a large number of cases from outside divisions that did not belong to them. From No. 4 Division there was 68 per cent, from No. 3 Division there were 3 per cent, from No. 5 Division there were 4 per cent, from No. 6 Division, 18 per cent, and from other districts 7 per cent. Q. So that only two-thirds of these cases really belong to No. 4 District? — A. Yes. In the fall of 1915 the A.D.M.S. telephoned up to me " I have got a report from Eng- land; many cases coming, what will you do? Can you give me 25 beds "? And I said yes. Acting for the Laurentian Society I bought these beds, furnished them and ^placed them in the sanatorium. The next day. Thanksgiving Day, I visited Abbotts- ford and told the Abbottsford Machine Gun Association of this urgent expenditure on behalf of the soldiers. As they could not buy the gun they gave me the $1,010 to defray the cost of the beds. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Are you a Canadian? — A. Yes, sir, from the Province of Ontario. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. You say you had 18 per cent of your cases from the Maritime Provinces ? — X. Yes, sir. Q. How did you get them up here? — A. In Halifax they had an epidemic of measles in the hospital, and there were a great many lung cases developed. There was absolutely no place in Halifax to put these cases in, so they wired vip to the A.D.M.S. for accommodation, and his reply was, " Yes, send them along." Q. And how many came up?— A. I think there were 17 a year ago this winter. Q. They are not in the habit of sending their tuberculous cases up here from the Maritime Provinces, are they? — A. At any rate, we get quite a number. Q. Mr. Pardee suggests that perhaps the reason you get men from the Maritime Provinces here is because they are landed in Quebec, is that the reason? — A. Not in all cases. We get a great many from the barracks and camps who have not been over- seas at all, you have only one institution in Nova Scotia for the care of such natients, and that is the one at Kentville. In New Brunswick there is the Jordan Memorial, ■ and I think at Fredericton they have the Summers! de Home. During last year none of these Homes were receiving military patients, if T am correetlv informed. Q. The Jordan Memorial is not receiving them now? — A. No. Q. There is no sanatorium in New Brunswick which is receiving military patients, so far as I know. There is in Nova Scotia? — A. The institution at Kentville is now organizing to do that. Witness discharged. Committee adjourned. [Dr. J. R. Byers.] RECEPTION', TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 467 The Committee resumed at 8 p.m. Trooper Victok E. Brown, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. You have been on active service at the front? — A. Yes. Q. You have been on the firing line? — A. Yes. Q. And you were returned on account of wounds? — A. Yes. Q. You are the Secretary of the Returned Soldiers Association of Montreal? — A. Yes. Q. Will you tell us what are the objects of that returned soldiers:' organization? — A. The object of the association is fraternal and for the general -welfare of the returned soldiers, to see that they get a square deal in every matter that comes up, also to help them in any way wo can in getting employment, and also to be friendly like we were in the trenches. Q. Have you a copy of the constitution? — A. I have a copy of the conntitution Q. Will you read the clause that covers your object? — A. Clause No. 1 reads a; follows : — (1) To perpetuate the close and kindly ties of mutual service in the great war, and the recollections and associations of that experience, and to maintain proper standards of dignity and honour. (2) To preserve the memory and records of those who have suffered and died for the Nation; to see to the erection of monuments to their valour, and the establishment of an Annual Memorial Day. (3) To ensure that provision is made for the due care of the sick, wounded and needy among those who have served, including reasonable pensions, em- ployment for such as are capable, soldiers' homes, medical care, and proper provision for dependent families of enlisted men. (4) To continually inculcate loyalty to Canada and the Empire and unstinted service in their interests. Q. Is yours a national or local association? — A. It is a local association hort but I might say that it is Dominion-wide. We have no Dominion charter yet, but we are holding a meeting in the near future to discuss having a Dominion charter. Q. Does your constitution correspond with the constitution of similar organiza- tions in other parts of Canada? — A. Very closely, yes. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Are you incorporated? — A. We have }io charter yet, but are applying for one. By the Chairman: Q. Who are your oificers? — A. We have as officers: Mr. Hollis S. Stevenson, President; Frank Miller, First Vice-President; Napoleon Marion, Second Vice- President; we have Major Anderson, Treasurer; H. K. Tait, Honorary Secretary; V. R. Brown as Secretary and three members of the Committee, viz., Lewis Gabel, R. Seggie and W. B. Scott. Q. How many of these gentlemen are here to-night? — A. We have the President, the Second Vice-President and Mr. Cleland. I might say we have an extra committee who have had experience on the land question and we asked them to come to the meeting to discuss the land proposition : that is Mr. Cleland, who is here to-day, Sergeant-Major Cleland. Q. If the Committee desires to discuss the back to the land problem, Sergeant- .Major Cleland is here to give his views on the subject? — A. Yes. Q. How large a proportion of the returned soldiers who have come back to the district are membei-s of your association ? — A. Roughly speaking we have 300 members now, and I think there are about .5,000 returned to this district. Q. There are 5,000 men who have dropped out of the service, who have enlisted in this district, but not 5,000 men who have returned. W^e have been told to-day there 28277— 30J [Trooper V. R. Brown.] 468 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS were 1,580 who had returned, that there were 5,068 men who had been struck off the toll? — A. We have, roughly speaking, about 300 members. Of course tliere is quite a number who have joined who may have gone away to other places. Q. Are the men who have come back from other parts of No. 4 Military District all members of your association, or is that purely a Montreal association? — A. Within the Montreal district they are entitled to membership. Q. Does that include the entire district from which the recruiting from No. 4 district took place? — A. Yes. Q. Does your membership include every man who enlists or only those who have been overseas. Q. How is your association supported? — A. At the present moment by voluntary contribution. We have not encroached upon the generosity of the public so far as collecting from them is concerned. Q. You have made no appeal to the public for money? — A. Not at all yet. The idea of the association is to try and be self-supporting, and if we get money it is by entertainment, where we return something for what we get. Q. Is there any other soldiers' associations in this district? — A. There is another association under another name which is called the Lachine Associattion. Q. Nine miles from here? — A. Yes. Q. Therefore you claim to be representatives of the returned soldiers? — A. Yes. Q. Do they come to you with their complaints? — A. They do, sir. Q. Do you think you are in a position to tell this committee what are the com- plaints of the returned soldiers of this district? — A. I am, sir. Q. We will give you carte blanche to do so? — A. Do you wish me to make a statement? Q. Yes? — A. I find here that generally speaking complaints come to me and the association of five or six different matters. Firstly, we will take the complaints in regard to the trip over in the boat. Do you want me to detail the complaints in that respect ? Q. Yes, I would like you to elaborate that trip over on the boat. Tell us all you have to say about that? — A. The complaints from the returned soldiers in regard to the trip on the boat generally comes from men who are crippled, who have lost a limb. These men are kept down in the hold and they cannot get up on the deck to get fresh air. That is necessary for a man who is in that state of health. Of course he is greatly tried by having to climb stairs, if such a thing should happen as the ship being torpedoed. In that case these men, who are probably on crutches, would have to rush up the stairs and they would be greatly handicapped in trying to do so. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. You do not really mean they are kept in the hold ? — A. I do not mean the hold. I mean downstairs. I mean probably in the third cabin. Q. Would your recommendation mean that men who are not able to help them- selves ought to be in the deck cabins, or in the cabins near the decks? — A. I certainly think so. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. How do you know this? — A. I have met men in the hospitals who told me, and when I came over myself we were down in the hold. Q. Do you know of your own knowledge that these men were downstairs ? — A. Yes. Q. And it would be impossible for them to get up in case of emergency ? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. How are the men placed on the ship? — A. All the men are down in the third class and all the officers and N.C.O.'s are in the first cabin. [Trooper V. R. Brown.] RECEPTION, TREATMEXT AND RE-EDVCATION 469 By Mr. Bennett: Q. There are no first cabins in many ships that bring troops over, and there are two cabin ships only that bring our men back? — A. Yes. I refer to the Metagama. That ship has two cabins, first and second. Q. Second and third? — A. Second and third. Well the second is the top deck, and the third is the bottom one. Q. But the top cabin does not open as you know directly out on the top deck, it opens on the deck below? — A. There is the boat deck up above, there is a promenade deck on top. Q. There is one class of boat where the cabins open direct on the decks and the others do not. You could not get all your passengers in that class of cabin? — A. T only mean the cripples. I do not mean the man who is able to help himself. I refer to a man on crutches. Q. Has that not been overcome by the new hospital ships of ours with the Eed Cross sign painted on the side, which just went into commission six weel^s ago? — A. That may have been overcome to that extent, but all the men do not come over on that ship. Q. All the cripples and all the men who are unable to care for themselves are now placed on this hospital ship. I am asking for information? — A. That is merely bed Q. Is it not for all cases — men who have, by amputation or otherwise lost their limbs, so that they cannot walk except on crutches? — A. Xot necessarily a bed case. The man may have improved so much that he is able to be out of bed. Q. A bed case or the other case? — A. Yes. Q. Do they not all travel on that ship now? — A. They may do so, I would not like to say. Q. Do you know? — A. I do not know. I think a lot of them come back on troop ships. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. What reason do they give for keeping them on that lower deck? — A. They have not given any reason except they keep that other deck for the officers and N.C.O.'s. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Are the men not allowed on that deck? — A. No. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. These men, you say, are quartered below the main deck? — A. Yes, below the main deck. As you look up from the second or third class, whichever it may be, you can see the other passengers walking around and gazing down on you. Q. There are two or three decks, and in some vessels they are above the main decks? — A. Yes, biit there are two decks on the Metagama, for illustration. Q. I want to know whether if these crippled men have to leave the ship suddenly, they would have to go upstairs or whether they could take the boat from the deck on which their berths are ? — A. Of course, it is possible to leave by the lower decks, but in the event of a ship sinking suddenly, what chance would a crippled man have to take to the boats. A man who had the use of his legs might rush upstairs to the upper decks in time to save himself, but not a cripple. Q. That is the point : whether they would have to go to the top deck ? — A. I should imagine in most cases they would have to do so. I have never been on a torpedoed boat, but I surmise that such would bo necessary. Q. Could the men not be got off from the same deck on which their berths are located? — A. They doubtless could, if the vessel did not sink quickly, but there are times when a vessel sinks more quickly than at others, according to where she is hit. A man who has the full possession of his limbs can scramble upstairs and get over- board, where he can be rescued, but a crippled man is badly handicapped. [Trooper V. R. Brown.] 470 SPECIAL COMMIT'^ EE—C.E.F.-RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Bennett: Q. I understand that in the case of the Metagama there are boats on the deck of which you speak?— A. I believe there are, sir. I quite agree with you in that state- ment. Q. In that case the men would not have to climb upstairs at alH— A. No. Q. It is perfectly clear that on that ship the crippled man could get to the boat anywhere without climbing stairs. That is clear, is it not?— A. Quite clear, sir, from that point of view, but even so, the health of a man who is a cripple has probably been impaired and it would be far healthier for him to be on the upper deck where he could get more air and more of the breeze. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. Your contention is that men who are suffering from disabled* leg^ should be put in a safer position? — A. Yes. Mr. Eoss (Middlesex) : I think you are undoubtedly right about that. The Chairman : Should be put in a position where he could be immediately saved in case of trouble. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Are there many of these men coming back?— A. Quite a few 'coming back now, sir. By the Chairman: Q. "What is your second point? — A. The treatment in the convalescent homes, sir. Q. What have you to say of the treatment in the convalescent homes in No. 4 District? — A. I refer to only one, sir. Q. Which one is that ? — A. The Grey Nunnery. Q. What have you to say against the Grey Nunnery? — A. I am speaking from experience because I was there myself. Q. That is right. — A. I was there myself and I have seen the actual conditions. It is not a case of depending on written communications from other people: I have had the opportunity of being in the building myself, and what I have to say is the result of my own observation. I am going to give you absolute facts as gathered by myself. The Grey Nunnery is not a fit place for sick or convalescent soldiers to be in. My reasons for saying so are these: In the first place, the Grey Nuniiery is so walled in, so to speak, that a man who is a convalescent has to remain in a room which is about 92 feet long, 42 feet wide, and 15 feet high. This room has to hold, in the day time, from 200 to 250 men who have to sit there from 9.30 at night till 5 o'clock the next night. Q. Do "not the men get out in the morning? — A. I was just going to explain that there are two parades supposed to be held, an hour's parade in the morning and an hour's parade in the afternoon, for those who are able to walk. Those who are unable to walk, of course cannot go out unless they are given an invitation by outside organ- izations. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Will you kindly repeat those dimensions again ? — A. A length of about 92 feet, a width of 42 feet and a height of 15. Q. For 200 men ? — A. Yes, sir, 200 men. This room is what you may term, below the level. It is a sort of a basement. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. A cellar room? — A. A cellar room. The Chairman: Not quite a cellar room, but a basement room. [Trooper V. R. Brown.] RECEPTIOX, TREATMENT AXD RE-EDUCATION 471 By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Is it a sleeping ward for 200 men? — A. Xo, there are no beds there. This is a recreation room on the ground floor. Q. The windows are on a level with the ground? — A. On a level with the groujid. There is very little ventilation. The light is poor, artificial light is necessary the whole day long, and when you get 200 men smoking either cigarettes or pipes, the resulting conditions must be very unhealthy. By the Chairman: Q. There is a piano and two billiard tables? — A. ihere is a piano and two billiard tables. Conditions are such as to be very unhappy for a sick or a nervous man. My contention is that a man suffering from shell shock, for example, needs absolute quiet. Q. May I interject here a question as to whether part of the available space has been walled off for vocational training? — A. It was when I was in the institution, sir. Q. Do the dimensions you gave include the part walled or not? — A. 'No, sir, it does not. That is extra. By Hon. Mr. Marcil : Q. Who organized that institution in such a way, militia officers or the Hospitals Commission? — A. I think it was the Hospitals Commission. By the Chairman: Q. Now go on with your description of the conditions? — A. Another thing. My contention is that a man who returns from overseas suffering from shell shock, and needs absolute quiet, has no private place at the Grey Nunnery where he can be quiet. A man who is suffering from shell shock likes to be by himself and get out of the way of any row, and to be in a place where there is lots of air and no smoke. Q. And plenty of sunshine? — A. Yes, and plenty of sunshine. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Are there many cases of shell shock? — A. Quite a number. Another thing is this: Some of the men who are tied up in this place may be allowed to go out by special pass, but the greater majority are kept in. In winter time, when they are allowed out at 5 o'clock, it is dark when they get out on the streets. Where is the man to go? To the public houses or bars in the city? He must, because there is no other place to which he can go. The excuse given for this condition of things is that Q. Does this condition prevail during the summer and winter? — A. In the sum- mer they may be a'llowed to go out into a little yard. The excuse given for keeping the men is that if they are allowed to go out two or three of them get drunk, which means that SO per cent have to suffer for the two or three. Now, there is nothing like fresh air, no matter how the temperature is, for a man who has been in hospital for some time and has come back here to get into shape again. The regulation is in Montreal that the bars should only be open to the soldiers in uniform during the hours from 5 o'clock to eight. But we know for a fact that that regulation is not adhered to, so that soldiers can get into a bar at any time. I don't say in any bar, but there are quite a number of bars in ^Montreal where the soldier can get a drink of whisky, or anything he likes, at any time of the day. Q. Is that regulation a provincial enactment or a municipal regulation? — A. It is a military district order by General Wilson, I understand, which came out in military orders. Q. And the order is not enforced? — A. No, it is not observed at all. By Mr. Bennett: Q. It is a prohibition on the soldier? — A. On the soldier. Q. It is not directed against the sale of liquor by the public house proprietor^ — A. Yes, it is aimed at tlie public houses. There were orders given to that effect. [Trooper V. R: Brown.] 472 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Orders from whom? — A. From the officer commanding Military District No. 4. I think a regulation has also been passed by the municipal council. I think I remember a case quite recently where a man was caught violating the orders and fined $40. Q. That is an hotel keeper? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. To return to the Grey Nunnery, have you any complaint to make in respect to the dormitories, the upper floors that are used as beds? — A. The dormitories are kept very clean and there is quite a lot of space there, but I do not think it is at all a safe place to have a body of men, either sick or convalescent, sleeping in. Q. Why not? — A. Because I am of opinion that the building is not fireproof. On the contrary, I regard it as a fire trap. Q. Are there no fire escapes? — A. There are fire escapes, but during the time I was in the Grey Nuns' Hospital the fire escape doors were all kept locked. Q. But as far as beds and bedding are concerned, and the sleeping apartments themselves, they are fairly satisfactory? — A. Fairly satisfactory, except that I do not consider there is sufficient ventilation. Q. How about food? — A. The food is fairly good. Q. You have no complaint to make in that regard? — A. I have no complaint to make as regards food. Q. Your complaint really goes down to the light and air, and the seclusion in the rest room at the Grey Nunnery? — A. Yes, sir. Mr. Eoss (Middlesex) : And the locking of the fire escapes. By Mr. Bennett: Q. When did you leave the Institution ? — A. About two weeks ago. Q. How long were you there ?^-A. I was only there for a period of four weeks. By the Chairman: Q. You were re-committed there? — A. Yes, I was. Q. You broke down after you came out? — A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You were there for four weeks and then went back? — A. No, sir, I was not there before. I reported there on my way back here from the West; I came down, with the 103rd Calgary Regiment. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Why were the fire escapes kept locked? — A. Because they claim the men used to get in at night by means of them when they out-stayed their passes. By Mr. Bennett: Q. It is perfectly clear that the men were not drunl-c if they got into the building by those fire escapes? — A. It certainly is quite clear, sir. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. You consider that living in such conditions has the effect of driving the mei. to drink? — A. I certainly do, sir. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. They would certainly need some stimulant after being in that atmosphere? — A. I think that caused most of the trouble. [Trooper V. R. Brown.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 473 By the Chairman: Q. What do you consider from the men's point of view would be the best hours for them to have their outing? — A. I consider it would be far better for them to go out in winter when the sun is shining rather than at 5 o'clock when the sun has ceased to shine. Q. Now, what is your third complaint? — A. My third complaint is in respect of the treatment of the patients, the lax way a man gets treatment there. Q. Do you mean lax medical treatment? — A. Yes, sir. I want to say in this respect that I am not making any personal complaint as regards myself. I am making this complaint on behalf of the returned soldier. Q. From what you have been told? — A. From what I have seen. A man who is a patient in the Grey Nunnery does not know where he is at; he does not know when he is going to receive treatment — why? Because he is told to do one thing by one officer, and to do another thing by another officer, and the consequence is that a great many patients are neglected through one party overruling another. Q. Are these officers belonging to the Association? — A. They do, sir, one is an officer of the Hospitals ronmiission and the other is an A.M.C. Q. They are both medical men? — A. No, they are not both medical: I have been an outpatient for a short time, and I went back to report to the medical officer. When I got there I reported, he had a book in front of him. Bii Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Was that the Hospitals Commission Medical Officer? By the Chairman: Q. You mean Dr. Dunstan Grey? — A. Yes. When he was just starting to put down my name in the book, the book was sent for by another officer. Q. By Major Hall? — A. Yes. He is not in the Army Medical Corps. The Chairman: He represents the Military Hospitals Commission Command, and Captain Grey is the Medical Superintendant at the Hospital. Mr. Bennett : Under the C.A.M.C. The Witness : This book was sent for, and the delay was so long that the different patients had to leave because they could not wait any longer, it was dinner-time, and the medical officer wanted to get home and have his dinner. Q. How long did they wait? — A. An hour or two hours. Q. And no explanation was given ? — A. Xo, sir. By the Chairman: Q. Is the conflict of authority as between Major Hall and Captain Grey? — A. No, I do not think so, I have not seen any, I could not make any statement on that point. Q. Neither of them know just what their authority and jurisdiction are? — A. No. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Are there a sufficient number of medical men at the Grey Nunnery? — A. I do not think there are enough. By the Chairman: Q. Are there any medical men that sleep in the building? — A. No. sir, not that I know of, none that stay in the building at any time. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Are there cases in that building that might require the attendance of a medical man at any time? — A. Many of them. Q. What are they? — A. Fits and case^ of epilepsy. Q. Who takes care of those cases when they happen ? — A. The nurses. Q. And the orderlies? — A. And the orderlies. [Trooper V. R. Brown.] 474 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Do I understand that there is only cne medical officer in the whole place? — A. No, sir, there are two or three medical officers. Q. How many medical officers attend the Grey Nunnery ?-^A. I know of four, and Captain Grey, five with him. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Are they all Medical Corps men ? — ^A. All IMcdical Corps men. By Mr. Marcil: Q. Can you give us the names of those gentlemen? — A. I just know the names of two. Captain Gurd and Captain Grey, and there are two French officers and another officer. Q. How many patients were there during your time? — A. About 200 or 250 men, Q. How many of them were bed cases? — A. I could not tell you how many. Q. Were one-half of them bed cases ? — A. No, sir, not half, about 20 or 30. Q. Are the doctors in attendance sufficient to look after the patients? — A. I think they are sufficient, but they are acting as a medical board. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. How many epiliptics were there? — A. I could not tell you that. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: ' Q. Is the medical service at the Grey Nunnery divided among these five officers? — A. I do not think so, they take different turns as orderly officers. Q. The whole five do not go there every day? — A. I do not know, they may do so, 1 would not be absolutely certain about that. By the Chairman: Q. You were speaking about the lack of medical treatment there? — A. Yes. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Can you give any specific instance in which men have suffered from lack of medical treatment ? — A. I would not like to say they actually suffered, but I have heard men come up and say, " I have not seen a doctor since I have been here." Q. Perhaps they do not need to see one? — A. It was a pretty badly-crippled man. Q. Do you know of cases where men have been calling for a doctor and the doctor was slow in getting there? — A. I know of an outside case in which that happened. Q. But he was not living in the Grey Nunnery? — A. He was working under the Hospitals Commission as an orderly. Q. And you know that he could, not get a doctor within a reasonable time? — A. I know that he died before the doctor got there. By the Chairman: Q. There was no doctor there at the time? — A. I do not know about that. A telephone message was delivered at 10 o'clock, and the man died at 10 minutes after 12. The doctor arrived at 10 minutes after one. Q. What is the name of the man? — A. His name was Appleby, and he had seen twenty-one years' service, and wore several ribbons. Q. Was it a case of sudden illness? — A. He was out on Saturday and was taken ,vith bronchitis on Sunday; on Monday he was looking much worse, and when the landlady went up to see him she told him to stop in bed and she would telephone for a doctor, which she did. She telephoned at 10 o'clock, the man died at 10 minutes after 12, and the doctor got there at 10 minutes after one. Q. How far did the doctor have to come? — A. I do not know. [Trooper V. R. Brown.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 475 Q. Was he accessible? — A. Yes. The message was delivered to the Grey Nunnery, and instead of sending a doctor, two orderlies were sent to see if the man was sick enough to be taken to the hospital. His trouble was bronchitis and congestion of the lungs. By Brigadier- General Mason: Q. How many nurses are there in that hospital? — A. All that I can remember there were two nurses in the dispensary and the night nurse for each of the A, B and C Sick wards, and the matron. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. In regard to this man that died what doctor was sent for? — A. I do not know if any special doctor was sent for. They 'phoned to the Grey Nunnery and asked them to send the doctor immediately. Q. Was there any doctor there at the time? — A. I could not say, I was not there. Q. You do not know what time the doctor did actually receive the message? — A. I could not tell you that. The only information I got was from the landlady. I was the only soldier present at the funeral. The man who did go there did not go from the Grey Nunnery at all, hut from the barracks. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Was this man employed at the Grey Nunnery? — A. He was an Orderly at -the Belmont Hospital. By the Chairman: Q. And presumably he was a well man? — A. Yes — of course for his age and past experience. Q. I mean that he was not a patient at the Hospital? — A. No, sir, he was not a patient. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. He had not reported himself sick? — A. No, sir, he had not. By the Chairman: Q. Are you through with the Grey Nunnery? — A. Just one more matter please, in connection with that. It is with regard to the discipline there, the carrying out, the administration of the discipline. , Q. You mean the punishment awarded ? — A. Yes. Q. What, as a rule, is the crime that has to be punished? — A. Generally, being absent without leave, or drunkenness. Q. The chief catise of your trouble is men coming home drunk? — A. Yes. Q. What is the discipline given to those men? — A. If they are in a bad state they are put in the guard-room. Q. That is they are put in the cubicles in the corridor? — A. Yes. Q. In sight of the front door, is it? — A. There are five or six cells on the left side which are screened by one or two planks. Q. Generally spealdng how many men are confined? — A. I do not think there are very many. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Is that guard-roo;3i warm in the winter? — A. No, sir, it is very cold. It is composed of sort of cells, I should imagine about 8 or 9 feet long and 4 feet wide. Q. Is it kept cold purposely? — A. I do not think it is kept cold purposely, but it is right opposite the door, which is being opened all the time. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. You say it is about 4 feet wide?— A. A little wider than that. Q. Is the building heated by steam ? — A. Yes. [Trooper V. R. Brown.] 476 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. What guard have they there? — A. The guard is composed of a sergeant, a corporal and three men. Q. Furnished by whom? — A. By the Military Hospitals Commission. Q. Where do the guards stay ? — A. They have a little office off the recreation room next to thb technical training department. Q. That is properly heated, I suppose? — A. That is properly heated. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. Are these soldiers exposed to the view of the public coming and going ? — A. No, sir, they are not. There is a sort of corridor there and the doors open in. By the Chairman: Q. If you did not know what they were as you come in from the street, you would not suspect they were there at all? — A. There is no door facing the entrance, you can see from the outside down the narrow hall, and it would be quite possible for anybody who had not been in the building not to notice them. My complaint is not in regard to these cells, but the way the men are treated, I think they are treated a little too harshly. Q. What do you say should be done with these men? — A. I think that the very least they could do to the sick soldier, no matter how drunk he is, is to give him a bed to lie on and not to allow him to lie on the floor, when he is under medical treatment with only one or two blankets to cover him. It is a wooden floor. Q. Is the floor level? — A. The floor is level, but it is of wood and he has only one or two blankets, with nothing to lie on but the floor. Q. Sometimes you have several men in these cubicles? — A. I do not know of any instances where they have been in the same cubicle. There are about eight or nine cubicles. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. You said there were one or two there to-night? — A. I do not know whether there are any more there now. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. There are men though who are not so badly wounded that they cannot go down town and get drunk? — A. I do not protect these men at all; I think they should be punished; but I certainly thinli a little more kindness should be shown. It may have taken ten weeks to get a man into shape, where, under ill treatment, he will probably need another month or two to arrive at the same convalescent condition. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. These men should be furnished with a mattress. If a drunken man were put on a bed, he might roll off onto the floor during the night? — A. In that case he would have no kick coming against the authorities. Q. A mattress would be all right? — A. That would be very comfortable, sir. The Chairman : I have seen the place, there is 'just a plain wooden floor. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Your view, I take it, is the same as mine: the most effective method will be prohibition ?— A. That is absolutely my view, sir. If not entirely prohibition, I say cut out whisky. There are so many rotten little hotels in this city, making a fuss over these returned soldiers, trying to get them in, giving them doped drinks, trying to get their buttons and their discharge papers from them, and every bit of their money. I have been down town, and have picked up men lying in the streets. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Why do they want their discharge papers? — A. To sell them, sir. They are used for collecting money and begging, sir. [Trooper V. R. Brown.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 477 By Brigadier- General Mason: Q. Are they all in uniform? — A. Sometimes they are in uniform, and sometimes, if discharged, in '* civies." Q. If he is not in uniform, the bartender could not tell if he is a soldier? — A, He has his button on. By the Chairman: Q. The worst enemy of the returned soldier in Montreal is drink, then? — A. I think so, sir, I certainly do. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. You mentioned that they sell their discharge papers ? — A. They get them taken from them, and the men who take them sell them. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. To whom do they sell them ? — A. They go around to different people- Q. They use them as a fake? — A. Yes. By Brigadier- General Mason: Q. If the man loses his button, you cannot tell whether he is a soldier? — A. No, and he cannot get another. Q. They would not hesitate about giving him a drink under those circumstances? — A. Not if they knew he was a soldier. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You have not got your silver button yet? — A. Not yet, sir. By the Chairman: Q. The only button you have is the Patriotic Pund button? — A. Yes. Mr- Bennett : The others are on the way. They have been issued in England. By Mr. Sutherland : Q. You would advocate having the discharge depot in a prohibition district? — A. It would greatly help matters. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You would recommend the enforcement of prohibition where there is a dis- charge depot rather than removing the depot to prohibition territory? — A, Where there are no bars, the men would be only too glad to have it cut out. In the case of wounded men, some of them want a little something to brace them up, and they go to a saloon, and the bartender puts a few drops of dope in the liquor. That is done every day in this city. By the Ch airmail: Q. Trooper Brown, do you think that the men themselves would be pleased if instead of being taken to a convalescent home in the centre of the city they were at a home a few miles out of the city ? — A. I think that is the only solution. Q. For the salvation of the men? — A. Absolutely, sir, for several reasons. There is nothing to do for a man but to walk around the streets in the city. In the country he could have some sort of games. Here all he has to do is to come into contact with a lot of roughnecks. Q- The men would be out of danger away from the city, besides being away from drink? — A. Absolutely, sir. Q. Have you anything more to say on the matter of discipline? — A. I witnessed an occurrence which I have been told to illustrate. I was asked to keep it quiet. But on behalf of the soldiers, I think I should speak of it. During the time I was in the [Trooper V. R. Brown.] 478 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Grey Nuns Convalescent Hospital, I saw a very unfortunate thing happen. I vs^as in the recreation room and I saw an argument take place between the corporal of the guard and a private. By Brigadier- General Mason: Q. A private of the guard? — A. No, a patient. This private was having words, they were talking together, and I heard the corporal tell the private to sit down. Now, the whole thing started through a little matter as regards the men who were taking physical training, what we call physical jerks, not being allowed to go to an entertain- ment which was given by some ladies at the Ritz Carleton in the afternoon for the reason that they were taking physical training. The argument seemed to get hotter every minute, and then I heard the corporal tell the private that he had had to carry him upstairs in a drunken condition several times. The private on denying the state- ment to the corporal aroused the anger of the corporal of the guard. The corporal of the guard rushed at the man, grabbed him, and throw him on the ground, then the sergeant of the guard came out and caught hold of the patient, twisted his arm behind his back, and with the help of another corporal dragged him into the guard room. There was an uproar a]t once. Q. Was he a wounded patient? — A. He was badly crippled, he could not walk without the use of sticks. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Three pnen attacked him? — A. Yes. By Brigadier General Mason : Q. Was he sober? — A. Absolutely sober. There was an uproar, the men all rushed toward the cells demanding his release. He was put in the cells, and the sergeant of the guard ordered one of the privates of the guard to fix bayonets to keep the other men back. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. How long did he remain in the cells? — A. Not very long, sir. I was in the midst of the crowd, and I asked them to wait until we got in touch with the O.C. They would have pulled the place to pieces if we had not. The Sergeant-Major came down afterwards, quieted the men down, and asked me to send in a report which I did. By Mr. Bennett: Q. What happened? — A. I have the report here, and will read it if you wish. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What happened on the strength of that report? — A. There was an investiga- tion, sir, just after this was put in. The sergeant was sent to another convalescent home at Belmont. The corporal was kept there, and the patient was kept upstairs. This happened on Friday the 16th day of February. On Saturday afternoon there was an investigation held by Major Hall, and there was the sergeant, the corporal, the private in question and myself as witnesses. The sergeant and corporal were severely reprimanded for their conduct. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Were they dismissed — A. They were dismissed, and the sergeant was told that the reason he was sent to the Belmont hospital was in no way to humiliate him. Q. The sergeant guilty of the offence was sent to another hospital? — A. Just transferred, sir. Q. That was no punishment at all? — A. None at all. The man who holds a cigarette in his hand gets two days C.B., and his pay stopped. [Trooper V. R. Brown.] I RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 479 Q. What became of the corporal? — A. He is on duty there now. Q. They were not dismissed? — A. No. By the Chairman: Q. I understood you to say they were dismissed? — A. The action was dismissed. Mr. Bennett: The charge was dismissed. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What was the finding of that court? — A. They found the sergeant and the corporal were guilty by giving them a severe reprimand. Q. Was the man immediately released? — A. Yes. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Did his health suffer on account of his treatment? — A. Yes, for two or three days he trembled like a leaf, and his stomach was in bad shape. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Where was he wounded? — A. In his right side, near the stomach. By the Chairman: Q. What was the name of the non-commissioned officer transferred to the Bel- mont? — A. Sergt. Hornet. Q. What is the name of the corporal who was detained? — A. Corporal Vigar. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Who was the man who held the investigation? — A. Major Hall. By Mr. Sutherland : Q. Who is responsible for the discipline in that case? The Army Service Corps? —A. No. Q. Or the Hospitals Commission? — A. The Hospitals Commission. Q. And these men were appointed by the Hospitals Commission? — A. Yes, dis- charged men, but taken on again. By Mr. Bennett: Q. They were physically fit for that purpose? — A. Yes, very much so. By the Chairman: Q. The penalties were meted out by Major Hall? — A. Yes. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Are there printed regulations for that? — A. Yes, printed and typewritten. By the Chairman: Q. Have you anything further to say about that? — A. No. Q. Go on with No. 3 ? — A. The next thing I have you may say you have covered. It is in regard to discharges, pay and ixiusions. In my case some of them are not adjusted, if I may be allowed to say that. Q. Your own personal case? — A. All the cases I have before me. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Are they in process of adjustment? — A. That I could not say. They have been in abeyance a long time. Q. In process of adjustment? — A. Yes. Q. Those are tl'C ones that have to be adjusted under new regulations? — A. Yes. Q. Would you tile with us the list of cases and we will have each one of them inves- tigated by the proper authority? — A. Yes, I will file this report; that is the best way. [Trooper V. R Brown.] 480 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Bead these cases? — A. This is a resume of the service of No. 764, Private A. E. Baldoek, P.P.O.L.I., Enlisted 12th August, 1914, discharged at Quebec, P. Que., 6th August, 1915. Pension granted by Order in Council, dated 2Sth January, 1916, Ottavpa, H. Q. 649, third degree, i.e. $132 per annum for one year from 7th November, 1915. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Was he a married man? — A. Yes. Q. Did he not get his pay? — A. I come to that presently. He entered Royal Victoria Hospital 29th February, 1916. By the Chairman: Q. 'Recommitted? — A. Yes. Q. A month after he was first committed? — A. Yes. He wais discliarged from there 6th April, 1916. His pension was granted by Order in Council dated 13th May, 1916, Ottawa headquarters 649-B-15, first degree, i.e. for one year from 7th November. 1915, of $33 per month. Q. Eighty per cent disabled? — A. Yes. Re-examination by Medical Board, Montreal, 14th November, 1916, first degree pension granted for one year from 7tli November, 1916, to be then re-examined. Re-adjustment of pension Ottawa, 21st December, 1916, from old scale to the new scale, 1st March to the 15th July, 1916. inclusive. Whilst under treatment four and half month's separation allowance at $20 per month, $90. As per ruling of Military Hospitals Commission Command, published in the press, i.e., any man discharged, and it was found he was too sick to follow any occupation, would be put back in hospital for treatment, and at the same time would also be put back on pay and allowances for such period. I have tried to collect my separation allowance for that period and up to the present have not been successful. Q. You mean tried to collect arrearages for that period f — A. Yes. Q. But that Order in Council did not go tlirough. He could not collect for tiine prior to the Order in Council being passed? — A. I do not know. Mr. Bennett: Yes, under the terms of the Order in Council he was entitled to that. What date was that? The Witness : That is at the present moment. By Mr. Bennett: Q. When was that taken up with the Pensions Department? The Order in Council is only recently ? — A. I do not think it has been taken up within the last two weeks. By the Chairman: Q. Finish reading the statement? — A. The statement reads "I am therefore entitled to know, as I was put back into hospital, as per the ruling, why I did not get the separation allowance for my wife, as during the time I was laid up she had to be supported just the same." Then I have put a query, why should a man enlisted for home service, laid up in hospital, be receiving full pay and separation allowance for wife without any trouble at all, and another man, a member of the First Contingent, wounded at Ypres in January, 1915, being returned back to Canada, discharged, having to re-enter hospital suffering from (1) myccarditis, (2) vegetative valvxdar endocarditis, the X. Ray examination shows the heart enlarged both to the right and left. The Electro Cardiogram shows prolongation of the P. R. interval, (3) Oedema of the lungs and (4) Chronic nephritis, not be able to collect the separation allowance that is due to him during the period he is under military medical treatment." Then query, " why should I be paid $18.75 for subsistence through an error as from 7th. to 31st August, 1915, inclusive, to have same deducted by Ottawa on the 4th March, 1916, out of my first instalment of pension." That is signed by A. R. Baldock. The Chairman : The new regulation is in force now, and I think these statements had better be sent to Ottawa with the request that an explanation be given on the part of the military authorities with reference to that allegation. [Trooper V. R. Brown.] ] J RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 481 Mr. Bennett : There are many things with regard to which we will require an explanation. By lion. Mr. Marcil: Q. Is there any man in Montreal to whom this man could make his complaint ? — A. I find in regard to pensions that we have established a local office under the manage- ment of Mrs. Ross who will look into pensions and get a reply within three days. Q. Has this ever been submitted to Mrs. Eoss ? — A. No, I do not think so. I have another statement here which reads as follows: — No. 24G36, Lance Corporal P. O'Sullivan, 18th Battalion, C.E.F., was dis- charged 29th September, 1915. He was recommended at Quebec Discharge Depot for no convalescence. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. What is meant by that ? — A. That he is fit for work. The statement continues : He started to work and worked for two months but his leg broke out and he was unable to continue work. Q. He was wounded in the leg ?— A. Yes. He further states : — ■ He reported to Lieut.-Col. Patch who recommended him to the General Hospital. On reporting to the General Hospital he was examined by the doctors and X rayed; he was then transferred to the Grey Nuns Convalescent Hospital. He was a bed patient for five months and then he was held for two months until he was able to work. He wants to know why he was not paid for period in hospital. He was wounded and gassed, and after being in convalescent for three months he received a pension check for $11, which was all the money he received while he was in the hospital. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Was he married or single? — A. I think single. He further states: — He was recommended in England for a pension for one year, third class. He received pension for only six months in Canada and then was cut oflf without being re-boarded and has not heard since from Pensions Board. By Mr. Pardee: Q. When did he get his last pension under that? — A. I understand when he returned to Canada was in September and he got paid six months after that. He got paid for six months. Q. That would be in March? — ^A. Yes. Q. He has had nothing since? — A. No. He was discharged. When he got to the depot he was told by Col. Sharpies that he did not need any convalescence. By the Chairman: Q. And he broke down afterwards and went in again? — A. Yes, By Mr. Bennett: Q. The man was eight months in the hospital without pay and was discharged as a man not requiring any pension afterwards? — A. Yes. By lion. Mr. Marcil: Q. How is he now? — A. He claims he is not fit for work now. 28277—31 [Trooper V. R. Brown. 1 482 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Bennett: Q. He wants re-boarding now? — A. Yes, I told him he could. He has tried his best to work. Q. How long was he in the service? — A. About a year. By the Chairman: Q. Give us the next one? — A. Pensioner No. 3613. Pte. 24799, James Dunn, Abercrombie, 13th Batt., R. H. C. This man was discharged from the C. E. F. on September 22, 1915, as physically unfit for further service, having lost the entire use of his right arm. He was given three months pay i.e. $150 pending settlement of his pension. He was awarded a first degree pension for six months i.e. $22 per month. At the expiration of this period he was again examined by the medical board and pen- sion was continued at the same rate for a further six months. On December 13th, he was again examined by the Medical Board and was rated as three-quarters disabled, which under the new scale of pensions meant an increase on his pension. On January 16, 1917, he was notified by the Pension Commissioners that his pension had been reduced to $16 per month. He also received a cheque for $111.67 to cover the difference between his pension for 1916 under the new scale. Prom January, 1916, to February, 1917, the above pensioner was receiving treat- ment for his wound, the greater part of this time being spent in hospital where he underwent seven operations, being unable to follow any occupation during this period he considers himself entitled to full pension for same, viz., $480. He also considers that his pension should be raised according to the finding of the medical board. He has already taken the matter up with the Pension Commissioners, but up to the present has received no satisfaction. Q. Why was this man discharged ?— A. I could not say. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex): Q. Have you confirmed any of these? — A. I have seen the man himself. Q. Have you any more of these cases? — A. The next is along the same line, the man was discharged in Montreal, No. 25608, 14th Battalion. The memorandum reads as follows: — "Was discharged in Montreal, was granted $8 pension per month and only received two cheques. The first was for $8 and the second for $12.10. A letter was received saying that owing to being overpaid on L.P.C. money was being stopped out of pension grant. Matheson is now working with the Customs and has been in their service for five years and has given every satisfaction. Making now $750 per year. Men working at the same place, under same rate and who had not been overseas were given a rise of $50 and some $100 and still kept Matheson on at same rate — $750. The Chairman : We will communicate with the proper authorities in regard to each one of these. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Where are the men? — ^A. Right in town. Mr. Sutherland : We should have these statements direct from the parties if they are available. The Chairman: I think we should first submit these statements to the military authorities and see what they have to say in the matter, and we can then judge as to where the equities lie. Mr. Pardee : We might get the authorities report in Toronto by Wednesday next and we might get these men to report to us in Toronto and place their case before the Commission. [Trooper V. R Brown.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 483 By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. How many are there? — A. I have given four or five cases, and I have some original letters here. I can have copies made of them. By the Chairman: Q. We will take any further complaints you may have if you will furnish us with copies? — A. I will do so. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. You have never taken up any of these complaints with the Militia Department before they passed this Order in Council? — A. I would not say that I have. Q. They may be all covered by that Order in Council? — A. All we want to see is that the men are protected. There is a letter here which I would like to read to the committee. On the first cheque which I received, April 6, 1916, the sum of $8.60 was deducted. This sum was overpaid me on some cheque which I received on discharge. The question is if a soldier signs his discharge papers and the authorities hand him his papers, is that not a clearance to both the man and the authorities, and should the man have to suffer on account of an error of the paymaster, whoever it may be, because they have made a mistake and overpaid him ? By Brigadier- General Mason: Q. Perhaps he should not have got the money? — A. The man did not know that, he was not aware of it at the time. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. If he was not entitled to that much money why should he want to keep it? — A. He did not know he had been paid too much. It was paid him on the acquittance roll. Q. If you had been paid $30 when you were only owed $20, would you not give back $10? — A. I would if I were absolutely sure I had been overpaid; but under the rules as now followed, the men are unable to be absolutely sure whether they are getting the full amount coming to them or not. Q. I presume you will not contend that if the man had been overpaid he should not return the excess? — A. Not if the man knew he had been overpaid. By Mr. Bennett: Q. I presume that having surrendered his pay-book and other documents, you think it unfair that the man should not be given an opportunity to verify the amount coming to him? — A. I certainly think that a man should be allowed to see his own receipts. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. "Was no explanation given as to why the amount had been deducted? — A. The $8.60? The man was simply told he had been overpaid on his pay cheque. By the Chairman: Q. What was the man's name?— A. Private McGilton, No. 25973. Q. Your contention is that when a man has been discharged from the service and begins to draw a pension, no overpayment which may have been made to him should be deducted from that pension? — A. That is, without letting the man look at any receipts he has signed for money to ascertain whether he has been overpaid or not. By Mr. Bennett: Q. The man has a pay cheque? — A. Certainly. Q. That is your evidence of the money you receive? — A. Yes. Q. And of the money you are entitled to? — A. Yes. 28277— 31i [Trooper V. R. Browii,] 484 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RBTURNED SOLDIERS Q. And when you part with that you have parted with the evidence as to the amount of money you have received ? — A. Certainly. Q. When you have abandoned that cheque you think the department should not deduct overpayments from the pension? — A. Certainly not, unless there is absolute proof of the overpayments. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Is the man satisfied he was overpaid? — A. He claims he was not overpaid. Q. Have you seen him? — A. He handed me that letter. Q. Did he say he was not overpaid? — A. Yes. When a man's pay book is taken from him he is paid by the Acquittance Roll, and he has to sign in triplicate. He does not keep that; that is kept by the paymaster, or whoever pays him, and sent to Ottawa, to the Paymaster General, or whoever it may be, but one copy is kept in the paymaster's office. Now, my contention is that a man who has had no education and is not quick at figures, and who, when he gets to the discharge depot, is handed $150, does not know whether there is really $200 or $300 due to him. I do not say that the department or the paymaster do this thing on purpose, but I do say that when there are errors in overpayment there may be errors in underpayment, and that man should be given a chance to see those documents, which will convince him of the correctness of the procedure. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Was there no statement furnished to this man as to how this money was made up? — A. No, he was only told that he had been paid up in full. I think the only solution of the difficulty is to let the party affected have access to the documents. Q. Was there not a statement as to how the amount was made up? — A. Even if there had been he could not check it up if he did not have his pay book. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Would he not have a pretty fair idea as to what amount was coming to him ? — A. A man does not keep a record other than his pay book. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. What is the practice? Are these pay books given up when the men are dis- charged? — A. Some of them are and some of them are not. His last payment to him in England is made at the London Pay and Record Office. When he comes to Canada there are two or three further payments to him — his pay going on until his discharge — but then he is not paid in accordance with the pay book, but on the acquittance roll. Q. What is that? — A. It is a form got out by means of which to pay the men, a sort of sheet. He has to sign when he receives payment. By Hon. Mr. Marcil : Q. A pay sheet? — A. A pay sheet. By Hon. Mr. McCwrdy: Q. And does that pay sheet not agree with the balance due on the pay book? — A. It is supposed to, but a man cannot say that if he does not see his book. Q. Was a request made for a duplicate copy of this man's account? — A. I would prefer myself that the man should be allowed, if he finds any mistake, to go up and see his record. Q. But, has a request been made for a duplicate of the man's account?— A. I do not think it has. By Brigadier- General Mason: Q. Has the man asked for evidence or proof that he was overpaid ? — A. He claims that he had not been overpaid. [Trooper V. R. Brown.] RECEPTWS, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 485 Q. Did he ask for evidence or proof when the deduction was made? — A. I cannot say that. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Did you say that this pay hook you have spoken of is taken from the soldier hefore his acquittance sheet is made out? — A. Sometimes it is. Sometimes it is taken from liini in England, and be comes back without a pay book. Q. Sometimes it is taken from him over here or in England? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Does the officer, or whoever it is takes his pay book away from him, check the pay book and make the acquittance sheet up in accordance with the pay book? — A. I think he checks it in accordance with his L.P.C. This is the last pay statement sent over from England. Q. And if a man aa'Iio is getting money paid to him wishes to check up the pay- ments made to him, he cannot do so from his pay book or any other source? — A. He certainly has no chance of seeing Q. No chance of seeing the pay book? — A. The documents or the pay book. Q. No chance whatever ? — A. None. Q. Your complaint is that either when a man leaves England or comes to Canada his pay book is taken? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And the sheet is made up without any oversight on the man's part? — A. It is, sir. Q. And he is handed whatever that officer desires to give him, without check on his part? — A. Yes. I have a pay book which I can bring to you, if you desire, by way of illustration, where a man figured he had something like $68 coming to him, and all he received was $1.60. By Eon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Did he appeal to anybody? — A. He went to the Adjutant in the Grey Nunnery Hospital, who figured out that he ought to receive something like $50. Q. How long has this thing been going on? — A, Quite a long time, Q. Have the soldiers not yet got wise enough to hang on to their pay books? — A. I am one of the unfortunate ones. I figured when I left England that I had a balance coming to me, but when I got here the sum of $60 was deducted. Q. Have you made no representations to the authorities with regard to it? — A. I have not made any representations yet. Q. Why not ?— A. Because I wanted to see what they would do when I got my last pay. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Does not your L. P. C. show that ? — A. No, sir, it does not. By Mr. Pardee: Q. When did they take this pay book from you? — A, They took it from me at the hospital and sent it to the Pay and Records Office. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Has the question of exchange anything to do with the discrepancies between what the soldiers believe they ought to get and what they actually receive? — A. I think the rate of exchange is something like 15 cents on the £. Q. That might account for the $8.60 in the case you spoke of? — A. I would not like to say. It is not my case. My own case is rather a peculiar one. When I was on service I assigned $20 of my pay to my brother. Q. Did you not make a memorandum when you gave up your pay book? — A. My credit 'was, roughly speaking, about three pounds when I was last paid, which is perfectly O.K. Q. That would be about $15 ?— A. Yes. [Trooper V. R. Brown.] 486 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. And there was $45 still coming to you, on your contention? — A. There was more than that sum of money coming to me. Q. And yet they debited you? — A. Debited me at Quebec, and did not give me a cent. I was at my own expense coming back here. By Mr. Pardee: Q. And you have not got anything back? — A. Not a cent. All I received was two pounds on the boat, and I received no money in Quebec to take me to my destin- ation. All I have received from the Canadian Government since July, 1916, has been $115. My discharge dates from to-day. It is a simple discharge. By Eon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Was that money paid from Ottawa? — A. I paid my own expenses. Q. What I mean is, was the $115 paid from Ottawa? — A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee : Q. What 'was the extent of your wounds received at the front? — A. I was slightly wounded in the legs and back, and became paralyzed on the right side. Q. And you have not been able to do anything ? — A. No, sir. Q. How much pension do you receive? — A. I have not been rated yet. I have not received any pension. The last money I got was three weeks ago, when I received $50. Q. When did you arrive back here? — A. In August of last year. ' Q. And the sum of $115 is all that you have received since July, last year? — A. That is all I have got. Q. What pay are you supposed to draw? — A. About $33 a month. By Mr. Bennett: Q. There is a regulatian now that the pay books should be handed back to the men as souvenirs? — A. Yes, sir. Q. To every soldier, by the Pay and Eecord Office in London? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And if this has not been carried out it is because the regulation has not been observed. You do not know to what extent it has been carried out? — A. No, sir. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Have you been before the Board? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How often? — A. I have been before two Boards since I was dowa here. Q. How long ago was that? — A. Quite recently, since I left the Grey Nunnery. Q. Yes, but how long ago is it? — A. I could not tell you the exact day, it was three weeks ago. Q. And you have been before two Boards since then? — A. No, one Board since then. Q. When was the former Board? — A. There are so many dates in my head that I do not remember the exact date, within the last few months. Mine is rather a peculiar case, I would prefer to submit the facts in writing rather than speak about it. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. How do you happen to be in this country?— A. That is what I would like to explain to you. I made application for a commission in England and was advised to return to Canada to get one. I paid my own expenses and came here to report to my Military District. Q. That is, Military District No. 13 ?— A. No. 13. I reported to the Sarcee Camp and made my application for a commission. I was told there were too many officers waiting, that there were about 2,000 waiting to be posted, and I would not be able to get a commission. I have recommendations from people in England and also [Trooper V. R. Brown.] I RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 487 from my Officer Commanding. Then I saw Colonel May — I endeavoured to see General Cruikshank but he was not there — who told me to go right back. I got $40 and $25 but my expenses back and my fare on the boat were paid by myself. The expenses of my journey to the west were also paid by myself. By the Chairman: Q. You incurred that expense because you wanted to secure a commission? And you returned voluntarily offering to come back at your own expense? — A, Yes. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Within the last month or so you were pronounced unfit for service? — A. I reported when I came back, and I found that they only granted me six weeks to get my commission, knowing that if I got a commission I should be detained to take my course. I found the impossibility of getting a commission — so I returned. I was suffering from trench mouth, and when I got to Montreal I reported to the transporta- tion officer and asked what boat I could go on on my retiirn journey. I had to stop off at Medicine Hat to get treatment for my mouth. I asked the transportation officer at Montreal what boat I could take. He told me I could go on the Missanahie, which left the next night. I was feeling very sick and I reported to the Grey Nunnery and they told me that I was a case for the Dental Corps, and it would take three months to get cured. I have been here ever since at my own expense. I was taken for inspec- tion and got my discharge. Q. What service were you in when you were on the other side? — A. The Strath- cona Horse. Q. How did you get detached from that corps? — ^A. When I was sent home wounded. Q. And you came back to Canada to get a commission? The Chairman : He was sent to Ireland first. By the Chairman: Q. But you came back to Canada at your own expense ? — A. Yes, I offered to come back at my own expense. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. What was the reason that no advance was made to you when you got back to Quebec? — A. The reason was, I was told, that I was $60 overdrawn. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. You were transferred to England and got six weeks' leave with permission to return to Canada? — A. Yes. Q. And since you have got back here you have been found medically unfit, and you are at the present time unfit? — A. Yes. Q. How did you expect to get a commission if you were imfit? — A. I thought I was fit at that time; I was feeling much better than I am now. Q. And you have been discharged as permanently unfit? — A. Yes. Q. Woxild you take a commission now if you could get one? — A. If I was fit I would be quite willing to, if I could. By the Chairman: Q. Will you put in a written statement on your own behalf, giving your own case? — A. I will. Q. Are there any further conditions that you wish to criticize ? — A, None. There is just one thing I would like to say in closing. I want it perfectly understood here that I am representing the Eeturned Soldiers' Association, and that I made no kicks about anything except their interests. Q. Your own case has not been taken to Headquarters yet? — A. No, I have not yet done that. [Trooper V. R. Brown.] 488 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Do you not think you should make representations to Headquarters and that if you do so they will receive consideration? — A. I am quite sure of that. Sir. With reference to the question of re-employment of the men, I have been looking after that part of it, and have been working in conjunction with the Khaki League along that line. I find that the greatest difficulty is to get the man who has been in office life to go back to office work. Another thing is that for the man who has been before engaged in rather heavy work and is now unable to do that I quite understand that the ques- tion has been taken up by the Military Hospitals Commission regarding the re-educa- tion of men who will learn different trades. The greatest trouble in Montreal at the present moment is the munition plants. The men all want to work there, because they can get higher wages. What I try to do is to get them to take some steady job at, say, $60 per month, rather than working at the munitions, because the war will not last for ever, and when it ceases they will be thrown back on our hands again. I under- stand that the men are being taught to become mechanical draftsmen, and learning shorthand and typewriting, which is very good, but I would think that a man would be on your hands for three or four years before he will become a mechanical drafts- man. If I might suggest some attention should be paid to carpenter work, black- smithing, gardening, furniture-making, and all that sort of thing. Q. In other words, so that they will not be required to come into competition with the more skilled men? — A. Exactly so, S-ir. If the Committee will excuse me, there is just one thing I have overlooked, which is rather interesting. It is this: a man writes here a letter Q. Who is it from?— A. The letter is written by G. Lajoie, No. 25963, and it reads as follows: — 2593 St. Denis St., March 6th, 1917. Trooper Brown, Secretary, K.S.A., ]\Iontreal. Dear Sir, — My complaint is as follows. Wlien I received my discharge from Major Hall, of the Grey Nuns, my character was described as " Good while in Hospital. Documents not available." This description does not say any- thing about active service record, and regarded in that light, it is not a re- commendation. Hoping to hear from you soon in this matter, I remain Yours truly. By the Chairman: Q. You showed me the other day a case that came up here in Montreal where a man is marked " insane " on his discharge paper. You might fyle that paper also. — A. I haven't it here. Q. Then you might give us the effect of it? — A. It was a man named Hamel, who is at present in Toronto, I have written to him but have had no reply. His discharge paper read " insane ". Q. Which you say would interfere greatly with his getting employment? — A. I certainly say it would, sir. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Was that description an improper one? Did it improperly describe the man? — A. I would not like to guarantee that, but,, I say that he should not be discharged for that. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. If the man is insane does he not get a pension? — A. I understand that if a man is insane the pension does not go to him directly, but to his family. Q. Or the Institution which takes care of him? — A. Yes. Witness discharged. [Trooper V. R. Brown.] I RECEPTWS, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 489 Mrs. BusTEED, called and testified. By the Chairman: Q. You are the President of the Soldiers' Wives League I understand ?— A. Yes, the Soldiers' Wives League of Montreal. Q. And that League has had a good deal to do with tlie Returned Soldiers. Will you give us the benefit of your advice with respect to the treatment of returned soldiers. What would you like to tell to the Committee with respect to that matter i— A. Well, it is almost impossible for me to say what I think should be done for the returned soldier. Q. Will you give us your opinion, from your own experience of the cases that have come under your immediate notice with regard to the returned soldiers? — A. You see our work is directly for the wives and the children and we expect the returned soldiers to be dealt with in another way by other organizations. However we thinlc that in many cases the great problem we have to deal with is the returned soldier in the interim while he is waiting for employment Q. That is after he has been discharged? — A. Yes. Q. You deal with him for the sake of his family? — A. Yes. Q. Do you assist him if he has no family? — A. If he has a wife, yes. Q. You would not assist an unmarried man who had no one depending upon him? — A. It just depends upon the circumstances if the man is out of employment for some time we do. Q. Have you found that the period after the man is discharged and before he gets employment is particularly trying? — A. Yes, we do not look into that very much, we simply deal with the family. While he is out of employment we give an allowance to the wife and the family. We do not give an allowance to any man. Q. Have you to help a great many families in Montreal of discharged men? — A. Yes, a great many. Q. Why? — A. Because they do not get employment at once, and for various reasons, I really cannot say why. Q. Have you had many cases that the men themselves did not make good use of their money ? — A. A great many. Q. You have had a great many cases where you had to help through the fault of the men themselves? — A. In many cases, we cannot tell always why a man cannot get employment immediately; we cannot go to the very bottom of that question, but we will not allow any women or children to suffer in the meantime. We may have assisted families, perhaps unwisely, but we will not allow any woman or her children to suffer, once we know anything about the case and have the money to assist them. Q. You work through committees of ladies that are attached to each Militia Unit? — A. Yes. Q. The ladies for example, connected with the Fifth Royal Highlanders, look after the families of that corps? — A. Yes. They come to us for assistance when they are unable to support these cases. Q. The returned men are the only ones you are interested in? — A. Yes. Q. On what do you depend for your funds? — A. Our resources are varied. We have an annual fee from our members, and we have collections from entertainments, and benefits and collections here and there, and the goodwill of our friends. Q. It is a purely voluntary organization? How many families are you assisting at the present time? — A. We have at present about 175 families on our list. Q. All families of returned soldiers? — A. No, because we have some families of men on home service. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Wliy do the families of Home Service Soldiers require assistance? — A. Because $1.10 per day is not sufficient to keep them. [Mrs. E. B. Busteed.] 490 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERH Q. If the man had not enlisted for home service, would he have been able to earn a living? — A. Possibly not, but he is a soldier at present, that is all we take into con- sideration, he is in uniform. Q. How many families of returned soldiers require helping now? — A. We have about 45 on our list. Q. Out of that 45, what percentage of them are families of men who are returned soldiers, but who cannot support them out of their pension ? — A. I think about 20. Q. Are they totally disabled men? — A. No, not entirely, some are, and some are not. Q. Of the totally disabled men do you know how many families you are supporting? — A. Of totally disabled men? I could not say, I think we have about two that we know of, totally disabled. Q. What are these jnen doing now? — A. I cannot answer that. Some of them claim to be sick. We do not know whether their claim is right or not. Q. Do you look into their circumstances? — A. Surely. Q. When you say you do not know whether they are sick or not, do you mean A. They claim they are sick; they have been discharged, and have been taken off the hospital list. Q. Do you get any medical certificate to satisfy your society? — A. No. Q. You take their word for it? — A. Take their word for it. We visit them regu- larly and keep in very close touch with them for some time. By Mr. Middlebro: Q. Even if a returned soldier can work, or won't work, you look after his family nevertheless? — A. That is a question. We get a great deal of help from the other organizations in the city. We are not going to help any man who is fooling or playing on the Fund, but we have a good many cases where we endeavor to help the women and children, and keep the help away from the man. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Can you do that? — A. To a very great extent. If we send food to the family we cannot vouch for the fact that the man will not get some of the food. As far as we can, we prevent him from getting any assistance we give to the women. By Mr. Bennett: Q. To what extent would you say that drink is a factor? — A. It is a very great factor. Q. What proportion of your eases do you attribute directly to drink ? — A. Perhaps eight or ten. We can trace it in nearly all cases. Q. Direct or indirect? By the Chairman: Q. In most of the cases that you have to help of returned soldiers the root of the trouble lies in drink ? — A. I think so, Sir Herbert. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Are these discharged men ? — A. Yes, a number of them are. Q. Are they all in civilian uniform? — A. Most of them are. Q. Is there any way you can suggest for discharged men to be so ticketed that they would not be able to get drink? — A. No, we have not thought of that at all. Q. You do not think it would be possible? — A. I hardly think so. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Except as they are doing in Alberta, by passing a prohibitory law? — A. That is what we would like. [Mrs. E. B. Busteed.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVOATION 491 By Mr. Ross (Middlesex): Q. You say that two of those families are men who are totally disabled, and who have been given pensions, and you are assisting them. Is that because their pensions are not sufficient to maintain them? — A. That is the reason. Q. They are men with particularly large families? — A. Yes. Q. But they get an allowance for each child ? — A. I am aware of that. By the Chairman: Q. A man totally disabled gets $480 a year and $250 for attendance, plus $6 a month for each child. — A. I know that. We have only two cases, the cases we are helping are where they have got into debt, or have had sickness in their families and have run up a large doctor's bill. In these times it is almost impossible to get a doctor to visit the families. Q. The Government pension of a totally disabled man with a wife and children may run as high as $1,000 a year. — A. We have only two such cases. Q. A totally disabled man should never require assistance. — A. These cases we are helping, we do not expect them to continue; we are giving only temporary help, that is to say the cases will drop off the list as they are adjusted, and as their pen- sions are adjusted. We are helping all sorts of people. It would be almost impossible to tell of the variety of cases we assist. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex): Q. Their pensions are not adjusted? — A. No. Q. And you are trying to pay up their back debts? — A. We are helping them. It is an awful problem to assist them. Q. You think when their pensions are adjusted they will get svifficient to main- tain their families and themselves? — A. We think so. In some cases the pensions are very small. We have a case of a man — I must speak of a specific case to make you understand what I mean — with a wife and four children, getting a pension of $12 a month, who thought he was well enough to work, and finds he is not. By Mr. Bennett: Q. It is only a 20 per cent disability case? — A. That is one case that comes into my mind. Q. He is entitled to be re-boarded ? — A. We have tried to do all these things. Our office is very well run. Q. The pension is not subject to attachment? — A. I know that. By the Chairman: Q. Have you anything to suggest to the Committee that might be done that has not been done to make conditions better? — A. Sir Herbert, I have a great many cases that I could speak of, but which I do not think it is proper to mention, as I have not positive proof. Q. Have you any general recommendations to make based on your experience? — A. Well, I think that some cases might be reconsidered. We have a case at the present moment that has been dealt with by the Patriotic Fund and the Khaki League. The wife and children have come back to us, and we exist for the purpose of helping women and cliil-dren. This is the case of a man who has gone out of his mind; it is claimed that it is not the direct effect of the war in as much as he was in South Africa and went out of his mind after being through the war there. That man has a wife and three children. We are giving her an allowance of so much a week. We received word yesterday that the man's case cannot be reconsidered. Cases such as this we think might be reconsidered. There are sevei-al such cases. But the information comes from Ottawa that the man is not suffering from insanity as the direct cause of [Mrs. E. B. Busteed.1 492 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS this present war, because he was insane once before. In the meantime his wife has used up all the money she saved while he was away. Q. If there had not been this great war he might have been insane now ? — A. He was quite sane when he enlisted for this war. Q. He did not get to the front? — A. Oh, yes. Q. To France?— A. Yes. Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : That man's case should be reconsidered. Mr. Bennett: The statute will have to be changed, as it stands now he is not entitled to anything for that cause. The Witness: His family are not eligible for anything from the Patriotic Fuiid, and no separation allowance of any kind. By tlie Chairman: Q. Do you think the Patriotic Fund should extend th" time a little longer for helping families after the man is discharged? — A. Yes, I think so. Q. Would 30 or 60 days longer cover most cases? — A. I think until the adjustment of the pension is made. Q. It does now, as far as that is concerned, under the new regulations. — A. I did not know that- Q. Do you think it should carry a discharged man a little longer? — A. Certainly it is very short. Q. 30 or 60 days longer ? — A. I should go a little longer if it was possible. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You have had a good deal of experience, Mrs. Busteed, in looking after condi- tions in a city like this. Having regard to your own experience, is the suffering among the families of the returned soldiers because of greater or less ^poverty, or is it about the same as is to be found among other families of about the same position in life financially ? — A. I think just about the same. Q. You do not see much difference ? — A. No, I do not. Q. It is the sort of thing spoken of in Scripture: The poor we have with us always ? — A. If these people are free from sickness all through the time their husbands are away, they are able to get along. But they are not provident; they have not any- thing put away, they live from day to day; they do not know how to spend their money, and they do not know how to handle it very well. In a great many cases we only assist with food and clothing; we do not give money at all. Q. As I understand from what you have said, the cases most pressing upon you are those that arise because of the improvident condition the families find themselves in at the time the husband comes back ? — A. In some cases, but in a great^many not at all. We have many splendid cases where something happened to them, for instance they are sick; it has happened so. By the Chairman: Q. As a rule, you get the submerged tenth anyway? — A. Oh, yes. Q. The people able to take care of themselves do not come on your Fund at all except in emergency cases? — A. We have an emergency committee that visits every case within 24 hours, and assistance is given on the spot whether right or wrong, whether good or bad. By Mr. Beyineit: Q. It is a fact that when the war broke out a consid(?rable number of men went to the war from necessity, and others because of adventure. So far as those who went from necessity are concerned, I take it perhaps their position is a little better than before they went? — A. Some are considerably. The families of those who went from our regular regiments are not the kind that want so much assistance. [Mrs. E. B. Busteed.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 493 By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. You spoke of some of these eases suffering from ailments and sickness, and having doctors' hills to pay and that sort of thing. Is it your suggestion that these people in addition to having their pension might also be entitled to free medical attend- ance? — A. Yes, we would be very glad of that if we could get it, but we cannot get it. Q. Is it a suggestion of yours that it would be advantageous for them, and in a way perhaps necessary that they should have it? — A. It would be very desirable, we have wished for that quite often. There might be a medical man who would care for the cases of the various Leagues, perhaps one man could do it. Q. You would be inclined to make that suggestion ? — A. Yes, I would be very glad. X think it is very necessary. Witness discharged. Mrs. W. Rutherford called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. You are the President of the Westmount Soldiers' Wives League? — A. Yes. Q. Do you also deal with returned soldiers' families? — A. Yes. Q. And discharged men? — A. Well, we have not had a great deal to do with the men. Where we have come in contact with cases that needed assistance we have worked in co-operation with the Khaki League. We have looked after the families that needed assistance, and the Khaki League have looked after the men. Q. Do you look after the families of the returned soldiers, after they have been discharged, who require assistance? — A. Yes. Q. What has been your experience in dealing with cases of that kind? — A. We have not had a great many cases of that description. Q. What are the reasons why you have had to give supplementary assistance to families of returned soldiers ? — A. We feel when all their pay and diflFerent allowances stop, and they are still waiting for their pension to come, they need assistance. Q. The new arrangement will not stop the pay until the pension commences; that difficulty will be covered, but how about the men who are discharged, but who have not yet commenced to get into a steady job? Do you carry them? — A. As I say, we have taken the men over to the Khaki League to look after, and we help their families if they need it. Q. Have you anything to suggest as to an improvement in the method of dealing with the families of returned soldiers? — A. No, I cannot say that I have. Q. The experience your organization has had does not lead you to make any suggestions to the committee? — A. No, I do not think I can offer any suggestions. Q. I suppose you agree in the main with what Mrs. Busteed says? — A. Yes, on the same line, but we have not nearly as many men under our care. Q. Have you any idea how many soldiers you are looking after at the present time? — A. No, I cannot tell you that. Witness discharged. The committee adjourned until 10 a.m. to-morrow. [Mrs. W. Rutherford.] i EXHIBIT No. 1. Depaktment of Militia and Defence, Ottawa, Canau.\, March 9, 1917. Deab Mr. Cloutier, — With reference to information desired by the Com- mittee as to the number of Class "E" men in England awaiting discharge. I would say that a cable has just been received from England, that the number of such men is 1,216. It will be remembered that Class "E" includes all men ready for discharge, whether wounded, invalided, or for any other reason. The cable states that all Class "E" men have done military duty, so that they have evidently been found useful in England for some military purpose. It is stated that there are 147 men who have not yet been classified at all, and there may be some Class "E" men in this number, but this would not materially affect the figures. Yours very truly, C. S. MaoINNES. V. Cloutier, Esq., Clerk of Keturned Soldiers Committee, House of Commons, Ottawa. EXHIBIT No. 2 TO APPENDIX OF No. 5 PROCEEDINGS. 15th March, 1917. V. Cloutier, Esq., Clerk, Special Committee on Returned Soldiers, Room 129, Windsor Hotel, Montreal. Sir, — In compliance with the request of the Committee, I have the honour to enclose memorandum giving list of the counties in Military District No. 4. I also enclose details showing the different reasons for the 5,028 discharges of men, also the 40 officers. I have the honour to be, sir. Your obedient servant, E. W. WILSON, Maj&r-General, G,O.C., Mil. Dist. No. 4. Area of Military District No. Jf, showing Counties therein. Counties of: — Jacques-Cartier, Hochelaga, Laval, Yaudreuil, Soulanges, Napier- ville, Beauharnois, Chateauguay, Huntingdon, Laprairie, Argenteuil, Terrebonne, Two Mountains, Montcalm, L'Assomption, Joliette, Berthier, Maskinonge, St. IMaurice, Three Rivers, St. Johns, Iberville, Missisquoi, Brome, Shefford, Rouville, Chambly, Vercheres, St. Hyacinthe, Bagot, Drummond, Richelieu, Yamaska, Nicolet, Artha- baska, Sherbrooke, Stanstead. 497 28277—32 498 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Military District No. J/. Statement showing how total of 5,028 Discharges is made iip. j^jimor: f •'V' -^^^^j^j^jjy yjjflj »■* ■ ' "'^i^5^^is.v ;; ;; ;: ;; ;: ;; :: : .. 1. .J t Mfi^ Deat^-^"' '"^'^^ * '. '. ••'" «trfi •■ 29'' ^- ' 5 028 ^ •■' ; OFFICERS. iHAsnedi .^/ 8 Struck off" strength as excess on units proceeding overseas not up to strength, and when establishment was reduced by Hf-adquarters from 36 to 32 24 ^Transfers to other districts 7 Medically vnfit 1 2,770 241 180 26 1,591 15 EXHIBIT Is^o. 2. Submitted ly Major General Wilson, M.D., No. 4. Summary of Attached Eeturn of Units of the C.E.F., mobilized in Military Dis- trict No. 4, from the eommenqjsment of the War till 28th February, 1917. Offrs. Other ranks Total number of enlistments known 1,649 35,652 Proceeded overseas or to other districts 1,393 27,980 Discharged or struck off strength 40 5,028 Stationed in M.D. 4 at 2Sth February 216 2,644 Memorandum and Organization of Military District No. ^ (from commencement of the War). 1. List of units gone from the district As per return attached. 2. Strength on leaving do. 3. Total number of men gone overseas from 1,393 officers, 27,980 men. the district. 4. How many men have returned? Approximately 1,580. 5. How many at present overseas from the Owing to the fact that the number of district? casualties has not been furnished this dis- trict, it is impossible to give the number of men at present serving overseas. 6. How many casualties? It is impossible to tell, as no information is furnished by headquarters, except that given In militia orders, where killed, wounded and missing, belonging to all districts, are placed together according to the date on which the casualty happens. The various districts are not shown separately. 7. Number medically unfit enlisted in the The number of discharged men, known, is district, and discharged on this side; 5,02S, but these figures do not include the (a) also discharged in England. First Contingent, as owing to the rush no records were then kept. This number also includes those discharged as unlikely to become efficient or desirable soldiers, (o) No information is received regarding those ; discharged in England. RECEPTION', TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 499 8. Men who never got to the front. 9. Special Service Company, number and Its total. Composed of men enlisted for overseas and found unfit. What the special reasons for unfitness were. What our procedure is in the matter of releasing a man who has applied. Impossible to tell, as we receive no information from Ottawa as to the number of men who are retained in England for duty there, or who have been discharged, having never reached France. Number 4 Special So- at Pebrun Distrih doing J. These m^ wherein it ii G.O.C. District, ox- oflficer commanding t' oany. Total as . 94 other ranks. : 11, G.M.P. ; 52 _iy. 7 men in hos- nd orderlies, 13 men "•'• es, 5 deserters. li _er H.Q. 297-1-31, me power of the inmendation of the . \ t > discliarge any man who is not likei co be fi* for overseas service, or if he is not likely to make an efficient soldier for duties here, also for family reasons. It is considered that none of these men will become fit for overseas ser- vice, but those who had minor defects were transferred to units whose lower physical standard would permit of their being taken, such as forestry .r d railroad construction unitk The princip v. causes of unfitness of these men are hernia, flat feet, weakness of heart. In most cases these defects should have been discovered by the doctors making the original examination. EXHIBIT No. 3. Canadian Associutlon of Returned Soldiers, Montreal District. Constitution and By-laws. Suibmitted by Trooper V. R. Brown, Canadian Association of Returned Soldiers, Montreal District. PREAMBLE. This is to be an Association of honourably discharged men who enlisted and have seen Overseas service in the great war of 1914. It is independent of governments, parties, politics, benefactors and all outside influences. It seeks to represent the men, their views, their needs, their principles, their honour and dignity and all their interests. OBJECTS. ' 1. To perpetuate the close and kindly ties of mutual service in the great war, and the recollections and associations of that experience, and to maintain proper standards of dignity and honour. 2. To preserve the memory and records of those who have suffered and died for the nation; to see to the erection of monuments to their valor, and the establishment of an Annual Memorial Day. 3. To ensure that provision is made for due care of the sick, wounded and needy among those who have served, including reasonable pensions, employment for such as are capable, soldiers' homes, medical care, and proper provision for dependent families of enlisted men. 4. To constantly inculcate loyalty to Canada and the Empire and unstinted service in their interests. 28277— 32i 500 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS This Association shall be known as the Canadian Association of Returned Soldiers. The local branch shall be known as the Canadian Association of Returned Sol- diers, Montreal District. ADMISSION TO MEMBERSHIP. 1. Every application for admission to membership shall be in writing, and shall give in detail the applicant's age, birthplace, residence, occupation, date and rank when entering the Service, his rank at the time of his discharge, the date and cause of his discharge, the unit to which he belonged, the length of time he served; if wounded, when, in what engagement and in what manner and degree. 2. The application shall be presented at a stated meeting, and be recommended by a member of the Association, who shall vouch for the applicant's eligibility; it shall be referred to a committee of three, of which number the member recommending shall not be one, for investigation and report. 3. The committee shall make careful investigation of the facts set forth in the application; they shall see the applicant in person and his discharge, and shall recom- mend his election or rejection at a meeting subsequent to their appointment, by endorsement upon the application. An application favourably reported by the committee may be withdrawn by a majority vote of the Association before ballot, upon request of the applicant or of the member presenting his application. 4. After the reading of the report the President shall give opportunity to any member having objections to the election of the applicant to state the same, after which a ballot with ball ballots shall be had. One black ball for every five balls deposited shall be necessary to reject. If a less number of black balls than above provided be cast, the candidate shall be declared elected. 5. Each applicant, upon his election, shall be at once notified thereof in writing, and on presenting himself for membership shall be entered on the books of the Association. He must present himself within three months of such notification. 6. A member-elect upon admission shall subscribe to a copy of this Constitution and By-laws. Dues. 1. The fee for membership shall be two dollars a year, payable in advance to the Treasurer of the Montreal District. (This rule shall not be in force for the present.) 2. No disbursement shall be made of the funds of the Montreal District unless authorized by a vote of a duly authorized meeting. Meetings. The regular meeting of this District shall be held on the second Monday of every month at 8 p.m. Officers. The officers of the Montreal District shall be as follows, and for the present they shall perform the ordinary duties attaching to such positions: — President, two Vice-presidents, Secretary, Treasurer, Chaplain, Sergeant-at-Arms. There shall also be an Executive Committee composed of the President, two Vice- presidents, Secretary, Treasurer and three members. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 501 Discipline. Offences recognizable by this Association shall be; — 1. Disloyalty to Canada and the Empire. 2. The commission of a scandalous offence against the laws of the land. 3. Conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline. All accusations shall be tried by a committee of three members, appointed at any regular meeting of the Association, which shall report to the President after due |j I opportunity shall be given to the accused to be heard. The President shall have the I power to give the necessary orders to carry the decision of the Committee into effect. i Amendments. These By-laws may be amended at the will of the District, provided, however, that such amendments shall be made in writing and read at a regular meeting and laid over until the next regular meeting before a vote is taken, when, if adopted by a two- thirds vote of the members present, it shall become operative. AMENDMENTS TO THE CONSTITUTION AND BY-LAWS. 1. If a member of the Executive Committee absents himself from two consecutive meetings, either of the Committee or of a General Meeting, without giving a valid reason, his name shall be struck off the Committee and another member shall be elected in his place. 2. As all Eeturned Officers are carried on the strength of the Canadian Expe- ditionary Force, although unfit for further military service, any Returned Officer, after passing the Committee on Applications, may be elected an Honorary Member of this Association. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Windsor Hotel, Montreal, Eoom 129, March 16, 1917. ' , The Committee met at 10.10 a.m., the Chairman,. Sir Herbert Ames, presiding. Dr. Thomas Walker, St. John, New Brunswick, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. Dr. Walker, you are, I understand, the head ofi the Military Hospitals Commis- sion, particularly in New Brunswick ? — A. I am. Q. Will you tell the Committee what provision is being made for the care of returned soldiers in New Brunswick ? — A. That is a pretty large question. In the first place wlien a steamer arrives Q. I do not meaii so much the machinery, that we understand pretty well, but I would like to know the local provision which is peculiar to New Brunswick, that is, the part of the work which tells 'what New Brunswick is doing ? — A. In St. John we have a Convalescent Home, in which we have a school to instruct these returned soldiers. Now, for instance, the other day I went out there, and a man who lost the use of his riglit hand had been learning to write with his left, making remarkable progress. We have three teachers in the school. Q. Will you tell us how many institutions you have in New BrunsHvick; give us a general survey ? — A. We have the Park Convalescent Home, in which we can accom- modate about 30 patients, and if we had another room fitted up for a school-room, we would be able to put in five additional beds. Q. What else have you in St. John?— A. There is a military hospital in St. James Street, and another one in Pitt Street. The Military Hospital in St. James Street is capable of holding about 80 patients, I think, and the one in Pitt Street, which is used for contagious diseases, will accommodate about 26 or 27. That is practically all we have. Of course, there are cases, occasionally, we send to the General Public Hospital, ^vhcre they are looked after by our own men. By lion. Mr. Daniel: Q. What about the Armoury Hospitals? — A. That is not in commission yet. Q. It will be in a day or two, will it not? — A. I doubt very much; there are no beds, or anything of that kind in it. Q. How many is that supposed to accommodate? — A. That, I suppose, will accom- modate anything from 500 to 700 men. But I understood I was to speak of what accommodation we had now, and that, of course, is not being used. Q. Of course, that might be the idea of the Chairman, but I was asking for my own satisfaction? — A. Yes, of course; that is not in commission yet. Q. Was there not an announcement ef some sort about an institution on the ^vc^t side? — A. That is not used now. The Commissioon leased and took over the Bank of Montreal, there are four stories in that, but that was only used as a discharge depot Q. Was there any provision for tubercular cases? — A. No. Q. None at all?— A. No. 503 504 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. We were told yesterday in the evidence by Dr. Byers, that he had a large per- centage of the New Brunswick cases at Ste. Agathe? — A. Yes, we have sent some cases to Lake Edward and some to Ste. Agathe. Q. You have no facilities for the care of tubercular cases in New Brunswick? — A. No, except that we might get a case or two into the St. Johns County Hospital, and might get a case or two into the Riverdale Hospital, the one is the Provincial institu- tion, and the other the Municipal Institution in St. John. Q. The Riverdale Hospital is not open to our soldiers? — A. I think they have one or two there. The Riverdale will not take the advanced cases, that is their policy, but I interviewed the local Government with regard to that and they agreed that the Com- mission would fix up a building there which really was a coach-house, and in which, when fixed up, they would take all cases whether advanced or not. Q. What is the total accommodation for active and convalescent patients at present in New Brunswick? — A. Those 35 beds are all we have at present. Q. Is that accommodation filled? — A. Yes. Q. Have you accommodation enough to provide for all convalescent cases? — A. No, we want another building. I propose to go up to Ottawa and interview Sir James Lougheed with regard to the purchase of a building in St. John which will be admirable and will accommodate 120 patients. Q. You think that the convalescent patients are as likely to be as happy and as healthy down by the sea as they would be if they were in a convalescent home some- where inland? — A. Some of us live a long time down by the sea. Mr. Bennett: And hope to live even longer. The Witness : On the 20th of this month I will celebrate my 77th birthday and I am looked on as a boy down there. By the Chairman: Q. My meaning is that where there are convalescent cases would it not be better to have them in the country rather than in the city down by the sea? — A. I think that is a matter that would apply to any case, especially in summer time. I think it 'would be far better to have them in the country. Q. Have you any convalescent home with rural or agricultural surroundings where the man can do some outdoor work on the land ? — A. No, we have not. Q. Nothing of that kind ? — A. No. But I think with tuberculous cases the climate makes no difference. They do just as well in one place as in the other. Q. Have you anything more to tell us? — A. Yes. With regard to the policy, I would like very much to see us cut off from Halifax, and to have a unit of our own with regard to the military authorities. For instance, a man in St. John in the con- valescent home is examined by a board and recommended for discharge. The papers of recommendation have to go to Halifax; then they have to be chewed over by the military authorities in Halifax, and then sent, I do not know whether to Ottawa or not; but at all events this procedure is a great trouble to U9. For instance, last week or the week before that, there were three men in the convalescent home that were recommended by the Medical Board for discharge. The papers were sent to Halifax, and they were so long in getting back that the men elected to go home and pay their own expenses. Q. The three Maritime Provinces are included in " B " Unit, the headquarters of which are at Halifax? — A. Yes. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Your idea is that for the purpose of dealing with returned soldiers there should be a unit for each province? — A. I thinlc so, yes. The men are anxious to go home and they growl and grumble and walk off. There was a case last year of a man from [Dr Thomas Walker.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 505 St. Stephen, 75 miles from St. John, who had to wait four weeks, and he became so disgusted that he started oil" himself. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. If your unit consisted of one province instead of two that would not remedy the delay if the papers had to be forwarded to Ottawa rather than to Halifax, would it? — A. Yes, it would. Q. Would there not likely be as much delay at Ottawa as at Halifax? — A. The delay is at Halifax. To give you an idea of it, there were two men in a convalescent home that I wanted to send out; one man was to go up to Toronto to be fitted for a brace for his leg, and the other man was to go to Cobourg, he had certain head symp- toms. I got word from Col. Thompson in Ottawa that these men had been recom- mended to go to Ottawa, and the transportation had been sent to Halifax. Now, we ought to have had some authority in St. John that that transportation could have been sent to. These men waited three, four, five and six days after I got this letter from Col. Thompson, and there was no word of the Halifax people acting at all, and we had to wire them to know what was the matter and why the transportation was not sent. I take it that that transportation ought to have been in our own hands. We have men in the military service that are just as capable of doing that work as the people in Halifax. By Mr. Ross- ( Middlesex ) : Q. I was wondering if the delay did not occur at Ottawa. What do you say as to that?— x\. No, it did not. Q. And whether you should not be able to do that off your own bat without com- municating with Ottawa at all ? — A. That is what I think we should do. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. The Halifax people are slow, you think — A. They are slower than molasses in cold weather. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. I wish to ask you if you know of any complaints that are made by returned soldiers as to their treatment, or of any method in which the treatment of returned soldiers could be improved. I do not know whether you have any evidence to give on that? — A. There were certain complaints. We had a local election in St. John the other day, and one stock argument of the opposition — now about to become the govern- ment — was that a returned soldier who applied to the employment committee for a iwsition could not get that position unless he promised to vote for the local govern- ment. I took that matter up with one of the candidates, who was reported in the papers as having made the assertion, and he did not deny it. I demanded of him that he should give me the name of the soldier who had been refused employment because he would not promise to vote for the government and also the name of the person who had tempted him, and I wish that I had brought his letter with me, but he just begged the question and he said he did not wish to make these people uncomfortable. I think it was a downright lie. I have not heard of any such case at all. There has been no complaint in regard to that. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. I suppose you know there has been an order in council passed giving prefer- ence to returned soldier^? — A. Yes, and I thinlc our Soldiers' Aid Committee of which I am a member have strictly acted up to that. Mr. Robinson, who is here to give evidence, I thinlc does everything he can to give preference to returned soldier* irrespective of any politics altogether. [Dr. Thomas Walker.] 506 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Bennett: Q. You think you should have more accommodation at St. John: that is really your view? — A. Yes, it is a burning question there now. We have a staff in the con- valescent home of three people. There is a head man Mr. Tibert, and a lady who teaches shorthand and typewriting, and I do not recollect the name of the woodworker. By the Chairman: Q. Mr. Sexton can tell us all that? — A. Yes, and it is admirably conducted, so far as that is concerned, but these men could just as well teach a hundred as they could teach 30, as far as I can see. By Mr. Bennett: Q. The pressing necessity is to add accommodation? — A. Yes. Q. And that you should be authorized and emjwwered to issue transportation for the movement of men from that centre? — A. Yes, I would like to have it made a separate unit, so that we would not have to wait. Q. If they had power to issue transportation warrants, it would avoid delay? — A. Yes, so that the papers would not have to go to Halifax, and be vised by them and be sent to Ottawa, and that we would have the power to do that. Witness discharged. Mr. Charles Eobinson, secretary of the Eeturned Soldiers Aid Commission for ITew Brunswick, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. How is the Returned Soldiers Aid Commission appointed or created? — A. It was appointed by the local Government Council. Q. Who is its chairman? — A. Thomas Bell, St. John. Q. How many members are there on the Commission? — A. About 15. Q. Are you incorporated by Act of Legislature? — A. No, the Commission was created by Order in Council. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Is it a non-political body? — A. A non-political body. Both parties are represented on it. By the Chairman: Q. How often does this organization meet as a Commission ? — A. As a Commission it has met four times. Q. Are questions of policy determined by the Commission? — A. Yes, by the Commission. Q. Are you an executive officer of the Commission? — A. The secretary is on the Executive. Q. Do you give your whole time to the work? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you an office in St. John ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you correspondents in different parts of New Brunswick ?— A. All over New Brunswick, sir. Q. What do you particularly undertake to do for returned soldiers?— A. We particularly undertake to secure what positions they would be able to fill. Q. How do you go about that? Do you make an attempt at an inventory of the vacant places in the Province?— A. Yes, sir. From the different business offices we find out what men they will need, and also when the civic authorities have anything to offer they communicate with me. If there are appointments under the Dominion or local Government they ask if there is a-man who can take the position. [Mr. Charles Robinson.^ RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 507 Q. Does the Provincial Government and the local Municipal Government give the preference to the returned soldiers? — A. In all cases, sir. The Dominion Govern- ment also does the same. Q. Are there any questions asked as to how they vote? — A. No such question has ever been asked. Q. You heard Dr. Walker's statement this morning? Did you ever hear of the complaint? — A. I heard of it probably four months ago. Q. Did you investigate the matter? — A. As soon as I heard it I went to the Veterans' Association meeting and asked before the whole meeting if any man had been refused a position on the ground that he was a Liberal or Conservative. Every man spoke up and said that no man had ever asked them such a question. Q. So there is no politics in it at all so far as these positions are concerned? — A. No politics at all. Q. What is the political complexion of the Commission as far as it is disclosed? Are the members about evenly divided? — A. About evenly divided, I would say. Q. How many returned soldiers have come back to New Brunswick? — A. Approximately about 450. By Mr. Middlelro : Q. That is, returned soldiers? — A. That number of soldiers have returned, but 75 or SO of them have re-enlisted. Q. In what kind of units? — A. In different units. Some of them have gone over- seas and some in the 62nd Regiment. Q. They have re-enlisted in combatant units? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Some of them have gone into the Forestry Battalion, I suppose? — A. Some in the Forestry Battalion, some in the Engineers and some have gone right into the fight- ing line. Q. How many have you found employment for? — A. Directly, between ISO and 225, that is with the help of certain business houses as well. Q. Are those employed entirely in St. John? — A. No, all over the province; the majority of course is in St. John. Q. What class of employment do you get for these men? — A. Some men take a book-keeper's job, some a watchman's job, and others go into the Customs and Post Office and other jobs of that description. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Do any of them take work on the farms? — xi. It is a very hard thing to get a returned soldier to go on a farm. I have only one exception to the rule, that of a young man who is waiting until this provision is made by the Provincial Government which is going to supply them with farms and assist them in starting. Q. Did any of these returned soldiers come originally from the country districts? — A. They come from all over the province, the country as well as the city. Of course, the returned soldiCr who comes back, and who has been farming with his father all his life, in many cases may have gone back to the farm, but in other cases, of course, they want positions in the city. By the Chairman: Q. I suppose that the boy who liad been on the farm with his father before he went overseas would probably on his return go directly to the farm, and not pass throvigh your hands at all? — A. Some of them do not want to go on the farm at all, and some of them would go. Q. But if the returned soldier had his old position on the farm open to him when he came back he would probably go directly to his home on the farm, would he not? — A. No, if he is an invalided man ho v.ould come through me. I do not think there have been more than 10 or 15 cases who have gone directly home to the farm ; they are looking for something else. [Mr. Charles Robinson.] 508 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Those men who come from the farm you say as a rule are looking for some- thing else? — A. Yes. • Q. Do you try to get them to go on the farm? — A. I have tried to get them to go on the farm, and I have done my best to show them the advantages and the benefits of taking up farm work, but they want to go to the city, they say there is more life there. Q. There is more excitement in the city than there is in the country districts is the contention of the men ? — A, Yes. Q. But is there not really more advantage to the man to go back to the farm than there is to go to the city?— A. I would say so; I think they would be better off farming. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Out of 400 men who have returned to your province how many have elected voluntarily to go back to the farm? — A. I do not think you could count more than about 15, and those would only be men who had been on the fann before with their fathers. Q. Out of all that have gone from your province how many who came from the cities have, on their return, changed and gone to the farm? — A. I could not say. Q. We have had an experience along these lines from Alberta, where out of 600 men who have returned, only six have expressed a desire to go back on the farm. What is the objection offered by the men to going back to the country districts? — A. They do not make any particular objection, but when it is suggested to them they use an expression of their own with an adjective to it. They do not give any other objection than that they would ratl^er have a little more life than is to be found in the country districts. Q. Apparently the experience which they get, spent in the trenches and being in the open all the time is not conducive to a desire to return to country life when they get back? — A. No, they would rather take a job in the custom house or some inside work. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. What provision is being made in New Brunswick to induce the men to go back on the farms? Are the men adopting a sympathetic feeling towards the proposal? — A. 'Quite a number of the men have been waiting to see what the new policy of the Government will be along these lines, whether it is proposed to give them central farms with other facilities which would make farming attractive. By the Chairman: Q. You are referring to the new policy of the New Brunswick Government? — A. Yes, they are waiting to see whether they will have central farms set apart for them with decent access to the city and good facilities for disposing of the crops that they may raise. There is no doubt that if the policy which has been suggested is carried out by the Government, we will be able to get a number of returned men to take up farms. By Hon,. Mr. Marcil: Q. As a matter of fact, farming is now a very profitable industry in your pro- vince. — A. Yes, it is very profitable. Q. Has that fact been brought directly to the attention of the men? — A. Oh, yes, hours have been spent in talking and explaining that matter to them. By the Chairman: Q. Do I understand that the Provincial Government have expressed their inten- tion of enacting legislation for the purpose of inducing the returned soldiers to go on the fa.-ra? — A. The Government that have just gone out of power have expressed that intention. Q. And the new Government have not yet expressed their views upon that point? —A. Of course the new Government are not yet in power. [Mr. Charles Robinson.] RECEl'TIOy, TREATMEyT Ayn RE-EDUCATIOX 509 By Mr. Middlebro: Q. Has the question of co-operative farming been taken up? — A. Yes. Q. Something along the lines the Ontario Government are suggesting? — A. Mr. Tilley can tell you all about that. By the Chairman: Q. About how many men have you on your waiting list now for jobs? — A. On the waiting list, I really have not any men who are waiting for a job, but have men tem- porarily working who are expecting to get changed. Q. Have you been able up to the present to place all the men who want positions? — A. All that are capable and were willing to take the jobs offered, — quite a number of them have not held the positions permanently. Q. Have any great percentage of your men been unable to hold the position to which they have been assigned? — A. Xot a great percentage, but there have been quite a number who have failed to do so. Q. What was the reason — why? — A. By their own actions. Q. That is by intemperance, or something of that kind? — A. Along that line. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Do you notice that intemperance is more general among these men than it was before they went to the front? — A. You mean among the returned soldiers? Q. Yes. A. Well, I could not say as to that, I notice it more now, because I am in closer touch with them than I was before they went to the front. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. Have you any means of keeping check on these men who prove unsatisfactory? — A. Yes. If you have a man who has been working with you, and he cannot hold his job, and another man is getting his place, we keep a record of it, so that when any one comes in and wants a man, I know whether that soldier would be the right man to send to fill the position. If you come to me for a man, in justice to you when you come to me I should be able to tell you if the man is likely to suit your requirements. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Have you any suggestions to make with a view to improving the condition of the returned soldiers? Is there anything that you think of that can reasonably be done along that line? — A. In taking up the matter of pensions there seems to be some dissatisfaction on that question. A young man will come to me and say : " Here I am, all that I have ever earned, I have earned with my hands, by hard work, and I have lost my left hand. Here is another man who has been in the trenches with me, he is an ofiicer, and he gets a pension of $24, and yet I am only getting $8." This young man feels that his disability is greater because of his losing his left arm than is the disability of the officer, who is an accountant, and he can earn his living as well now as he could before the war, and he is getting a much larger pension than I am." Q. The objection is to the officer getting more than the rank and file? — A. They do not look at it from the standpoint of the officer, but the standpoint of a man who has to earn his livelihood. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. On the other hand the officer is not supposed to be obliged to do the same work as the young man you have referred to? — A. No, he has his o\\ti work to do, and that he can do as well when he came back to civil life as he could before. By the Chairman: Q. Your criticism is that the officer's pension is greater than the private's pen- sion for the disability which he has sustained? — A. Yes. [Mr. Charles Robinson.] 510 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Brigadier General Mason: Q. Have you a club-house for the returned soldiers? — A. The returned veterans have a club of their own, and a number of societies throughout the city have places where they can meet. The business men of the city, in fact all the men of the city, have been always ready in all cases to do whatever there was a chance to do for the benefit of the returned soldiers. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Do you find in that desire, or otherwise, on the part of the returned soldiers, to get back into active civilian life; how do you find them, are they anxious to return to it? — A. I find that the man who always was anxious to get ahead is ready to take any job he can get and to work at that until such time as a better one offers. But the man who was only accustomed to getting a few days work a week, or was not in steady work, always wants to get to the top of the ladder at once. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Do you think that military life improves the man from the point of view of disciplining him, or is it the reverse? — A. I do not think it has improved the man whose civil life was not well disciplined. By the Chairman: Q. You find that the weaknesses of civil life that the man had before he enlisted still obtain? — A. It still obtains and I think he is a little weaker than he was before he enlisted. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. You think that the effect of military life, and its customs and excitement, does not depart immediately, and that it interferes to some extent with the desire to get ahead with the ordinary occupations of civil life? — A. Yes, they are looking for some- thing higher, something more than they are really able for, until such time as you could educate them up to that point. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. They want something easy ? — A. They want something easy with big pay. I can give you a case by way of illustration : I wanted an ordinary man, yesterday, for .a watchman, at $2.25 per day of 8 hours. I had a man who had been, before the war, working among the lumber, and at times he would certainly earn $3 to $3.50 per day. I asked him to take that job, and as soon as a better one offered, he would get it. But he absolutely refused. He was a lumber surveyor. There have been a number of simi- lar cases. The civil authorities have been giving us every chance, they have appointed no man without first coming to us and asking for a man who would be able to do the work. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. What is the total number of soldiers returned to civil life in New Brunswick? — A. I think it would be 350, around there. Q. I thought you said that 450 had returned? — A. 450 would be the number returned altogether through the depot. Q. These are all discharged men? — A. They are not discharged, because there would probably be about 180 of these men not discharged, in the hospitals ajid out- patients. Q. The total number returned from overseas is about 450? — A. About that. Q. About how many of those 450 were discharged? — A. There would probably be around 300. [Mr. Charles Robinson.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 511 Q. And of that 300 discharged, how many came t(? you and asked you to aid them in getting employment? — A. There would be over two-thirds of that number who came directly to us. Q. That would be 200?— A. There would be quite 200 By the Chairman: Q. And you, thus far, have been able to place all of them? — A. I have no trouble in placing all of our men. Q. Have you any irreducible minimum of men who never stay in places that you get for them? — A. Yes. Q. What do you suggest should be done for these men? — A. I do not know what can be done — I keep on putting them on other jobs as fast as they come back. Q. How many men come back to you for other jobs? — A. There are quite a number, I have some men who have come back to me ten or, twelve times. I had one yesterday whose record was nine times. My idea is to keep on placing those men until they get some job where they will remain. Q. Supposing they keep their habits and never get steady? — A. I will have to keep them on until I get orders to let them go. Q. How can they be looked after by the State until they prove themselves capable of holding a job ? Would you have a soldiers* home in which the irreducible minimum of men who could not be steadied down could be cared for? — A. There should be a home with work-shops where these men would be kept pretty well occupied and forced to either learn a trade or work. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. I understand you to say that 200 of the 300 employed have applied to you for assistance in getting employment ?— A. Yes, about that, I could get you the exact figures. Q. Have you on your list now anybody not employed? — A. No, I could not say, I have not on my list any not employed to-day. I tried to get four men yesterday and could only get two. There may be some men not employed out in the country, but by the time you can get them in for the position, the position might be filled. Q. How many positions have you secured for the two hundred men who applied to you for employment and who re-applied? — A. Of course, the positions I fill — I filled pretty nearly 200; but some of these men have been re-employed over and ovei. Q. Can you give the Committee this information: How many men have had positions secured through your efforts? In the first instance, how many positions have you secured for these 200 men who have applied? You said in some eases you secured positions five or six times. I would like to ascertain if jwssible how many of these 200 returned soldiers have applied to you more than once for your assistance? — A. I would have to take my books to tell you. Q. Have you that information ? — A. I have not it with me now. Q. There is another question I would like to ask. In the case of the men. who come back to you to be employed a second time, what is the reason that they get out of work, what is their besetting sin as you find it in St. John? — A. In some cases they might say themselves : " I did not like that work." Another man might call me up and say it is impossible to hold a certain man. Q. He is not fit for the work? — A. Yes. Another man may say: *' I cannot stana it, the place is too hot." For instance, a man at the sugar refinery, as the sugar passes over the scales he marks tlie weight down on the books. That man might complain after a while that the work is too hot for him. Another man may be working at a fairly good job, and will hear of another returned soldier getting a position in the Custom house; he gets dissatisfied and says he cannot stand the work he is at. Q. JTe wants to go to the Custom house? — A. Yes. Q. One of the witnesses last evening, in connection with the re-employment of soldiers, said that temptations were put in their way in a city of this kind which [Mr. Charles Robinson.] 512 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Bometimes led them astray? — A. Well, temptations are put in their way in this way. A returned soldier may meet some one on the street who will ask him to have a drink. If he is a man who has been shell shocked, as far as I can understand, if he gets a drink he is apt to take another. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Do you still have saloons in St. John ? — A. We have them just the same. Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Until the 1st of May. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Have your operations been confined to St. John or do they extend to the north shore? — A. All over the Province, sir. Q. Have you had the opportunity of dealing with men who have enlisted from Bonaventure or Gaspe Peninsula in New Brunswick battalions ?^-A. I never see much of them after they go through the discharge depot. By the Chairman: Q. I suppose you have correspondence with men in Restigouche County? — A. All over the province. A man sent me word, for instance, that there was a certain posi- tion in Campbellton on New Year's Day. I went up there that night, and before I went away I filled the position. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Do you find a willingness among the people to give returned soldiers employ- ment? — A. I have had no refusals, where the men are the men they want, and where they want the men. By the Chairman: Q. Have you any idea how many men come back each month for you to place? Is there any sort of regularity about it ? Do you get anything like an average number each month? — A. With each boat that comes in, it is about an average for New Bruns- wick. Q. About how many do you get for New Brunswick from each boat? — A. If there were 40 on each boat for the Maritime provinces, we would get probably 16 or 17. As a rule. Nova Scotia gets the majority. Q. Nova Scotia gets two-thirds and you get one-third? — A. We get a little more than one-third. There may be a vessel where we would get an equal number. But Halifax has had the most. Q. You have to provide for how many a month as a rule? — A. I could not just tell you. Q. I mean 25 or 50 on an average? — A. These men, when they come back go to the convalescent homes, or some may be out-patients. It is not often that a man comes back if he is discharged from the steamer. It wovild only be a discharged man that we have to handle that way. The convalescents will not be ready for four, five or six months. Q. You begin to negotiate when they leave the convalescent homes? — A. The moment they come to the discharge depot. , Q. So that by the time they are discharged they will be ready for you ? — A. Yes. Q. Do you fit them to some extent for the job they have in view ? — A. That is what they are doing at the convalescent homes. In some cases the Military Hospitals Com- mission have sent them to private colleges. Q. Mr. Sexton could tell about them? — A. That is Mr. Sexton's line. We look after claims where a man did not get his check for three or four weeks. In very few cases we get immediate answers either in writing to Halifax or Ottawa. [Mr Charles Robinson.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 513 By lion. Mr. Marcil: Q. Are the men satisfied with the clothing they get? — A. As far as I know. They can take either the money or the clothing, the man has his preference. Q, Which do they take generally? — A. At St. John they have taken the money. By Eon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Do you know how much money they get when they do not take the clothing? — A. The winter clothing is $13, the summer is less, Q. Is that $13 sufficient to buy clothing? — A. IS*"©, it is not sufficient. Q. IIow much do you think they ought to have? — A. I think they ought to have at least $20. If they got that amount it would make quite a difference. Q. Does the $13 include the suit of clothes they get? Is it a poor suit, an in- adequate suit? — A. It is really not a suit of clothes fit to give the men. By lion. Mr. Marcil: Q. What kind of a suit is it; a woollen suit or shoddy? — A. I would call it very poor shoddy. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Do you think they ought to have at least $20? — A. $20 or a suit of the value of $20. By the Chairman: Q. Where are the suits bought? — A. Not at St. John. Since I came in, there have been no suits furnished this year. The men have taken the money. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Probably the clothes are of inferior quality? — A. Probably the men have heard about the clothes. Q. Is it in the interest of the soldier that he should be provided with clothes rather than money? — A. Give him clothes to satisfy him, and I think he would take the clothes. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Why should he not retain his uniform? — A. The only object in giving the clothes is that he can get out of his uniform. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. They cannot wear the uniform after being discharged? — A. They can wear it for a month afterwards. Witness discharged. Mr. L. P. D. TiLLEV, M.L.A., called, sworn and examined: By the Chairman: Q. Mr. Tilley, are you a member of the Soldiers' Aid Commission in Xew Bruns- wick? — A. No, Mr. Chairman, I presume I was asked to come here having been Chief Recruiting Officer in New Brunswick for twelve months and having been all over the province and in close touch with the men we have recruited. Q. To what extent have criticisms of the treatment of returned soldiers affected recruiting? — A. Well, that is a pretty large order. There are individual cases which arise that have hurt recruiting in a certain locality which did not affect it in another part of the country or province, little things sometimes that affected individual cases. Sometimes it is a regimental or battalion matter which causes the trouble and some- times it is not. 28277—33 [Major L. P. D. Tilley.] 514 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Do you think that any grievances on the part of returned soldiers which they have spoken of have had an unfortunate effect on recruiting? — A. Before I came up here I thought it was the proper thing to consult the returned soldiers themselves. We have an organization there, and the executive called to see me, and I told them that I was to give evidence in this matter and asked if they had any suggestions to make that might be beneficial; because these are really the men wo are supposed to look after, and these are the men I thought suggestions should come from. Q. You are really appearing before this Committee as a delegate of the returned soldiers? — A. Unofficially. I asked for their suggestions and they gave me some. Q. We will be glad to have them. — A. They mentioned one thing in regard to the matter of pensions. They thought that some readjustment might be made in regard to pensions; in this way, some cases — not their own cases — but cases of returned sol- diers in the Association — where the men have been badly disfigured or cut up, and did not receive the same proportion of pension as did some other men whom they felt were not so badly cut up or injured. For instance, they quoted one or two cases. By Brig. -Gen. Mason: Q. You mean disabled to the same extent? — A. Well, they thought that they were disabled more than some of the men who were getting a higher classification. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. It is a question of classification? — A. Yes. For instance, one man, Lallicheur, who was still using crutches to some extent, has been given a position with the Customs house in St. John at $800 a year. He is very badly wounded about the legs and is receiving $8 pension. By the Chairman: Q. That is, he was considered to be in the 5th Class, 20 per cent disability? — A. Exactly. They thought he should be given a better pension. Q. You are aware of the reboarding arrangements? — A. I am going to deal with that in a minute if you will allow me. Then Colahan — these men I know personally — whose face is disfigured so that his jaw is turned around sideways; he is disfigured for life. He has a Government job as tide waiter in the Customs House. He is getting $850 salary. He is getting $8 pension. Q. Does his disfigurement interfere with his ability to earn a livelihood? — A. I should say no, it would not. But you put a man who loses his nose in a good deal higher class. Q. What was Mr. Colahan earning before he went to the war ? — A. I do not know. He is a son of a tailor in the north end. By Brigadier- General Mason: Q. Is he a married man? — A. I do not kno^v. By the Chairman: Q. Would you be good enough in each case to give us the regimental number and the name of the man? — A. Yes. Lance-Corporal Louis Lallicheur belonged to the signal corps with Major Powers, wounded April 23rd, 1915, at the battle of St. Julien, leg badly smashed and partly paralyzed, walks on crutches; appointed preventive officer Customs House at $800 salary, pension $8 a month, laid off for about a month. He has been laid off from .time to time on account of this leg, which troubles him. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Did his pay cease when he was disabled? — A. I have been told it did cease, and that is what I think should be remedied. [Major L. P. D. Tilley.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 515 By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. He is not a permanent employee? — A. No. If he were a permanent employee his pay would not cease. Q. Would you favour the appointment of these returned soldiers to permanent positions? — A. Certainly. Why not? The Chairman : When they prove themselves fit to occupy them. By lion. Mr. Marcil: Q. Is he going through a stage of probation ? When he has filled that position for some months would you say he should be appointed permanently? — A. Certainly, sir, if he is fit for the position, I certainly "would. Q. But it has not been done up to the present time? — A. I could not say. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Those cases are covered by the statute. They are put on temporarily, and are made permanent later on if they are found fit for the job ? — A. That is one case. Those cases are given me by the returned wounded soldiers. By the Chairman : Q. In that case he is only awarded a fifth-class pension? — A, It should be higher. Q. Give us the next?— A. Private W. J. Cahole. Q. What is the number? — A. I have not his regimental number, a St. John man, enlisted in the 3rd Battalion, wounded in the face, dislocated jaw, all his teeth knocked out, bullet in hip, also discharged 24th November, 191G, wounded at Festubert May 23, 1915. He is a landing waiter in the customs house under salary of $850, pension $8 a month. It is suggested his pay should be increased. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. He is a permanent officer? — A. I do not kfiow. The Chairman : He would not be permanent until he had been tried out. They go through a probationary period. Hon. Mr. Marcil: They are taken on for six months before they are permanent. By the Chairman: Q. Give us the next one? — A. Private George Henderson, 55th Battalion, C.E.F. This is rather an extraordinary case, and I do not know that there is any provision made for it, but these are the cases the men give me, and they arrive from time to time. This man was returned to Canada Q. Give me his regimental number? — A. 55th Battalion. It w^as originally started as a New Brunswick battalion, but I think most of the men in it are Nova Scotians are they not? Hon. Mr. McCurdy : The 55th Battalion was largely New Brunswick men. The 64th was composed largely of Nova Scotians. The Witness: Yes, that is right. The medical report declared this man insane. While he was a soldier he had his palate removed. His right side is partially paralyzed, j and he is deaf in both ears. He was for a short time placed in an asylum in St. John. ' He has been discharged from the asylum. He has a wife and family, and while he is not now absolutely insane or in an asylum By the Chairman: Q. What pension ? — A. No pension, and he is a public charge, to put it frankly. Q. That is a case for re-boarding? — A. No\r that man is in such a state that he cannot really look after himself. 28277— 33i [Major L. P. D. Tilley.] 516 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Middlehro : Q. He had his palate removed? — A. Yes. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. He is ill a desperate state? — A. Yes. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. How was he before he enlisted? — A. I do not know. Q. Was he a whole man before he enlisted or a little off? — A. I have not sufficient knowledge to give an opinion on that point. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Was this man at the front? — A. I do not know. Q. Was he ever across? — A. I could not say, sir. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Was he ever insane before he enlisted? — A. I do not know that. By the Chairman: Q. Has he made application for pension? — A. Not that I am aware of. Q. Then where does any criticism come in? — A. I am not criticising except it is a public charge. I do not know whether he has made application or not. Perhaps Mr. Eobinson could tell you that. The men say that this man is adrift and a public charge on the community. Q. Unless he has made some application for pension and has had it refused, there is no grievance? — A. I presume he has. These men are well versed in these matters, and I imagine he has made an application. These men are all conversant with pensions and applications for pensions. Q. What is the next? — A. Private Fred. Hyatt of the 55th Battalion. He was a great Socialist and one of the first men to enlist in St. John. He enlisted and went over to the front, and he became physically unfit and was returned, suffering from locomotor ataxia and has gradually grown worse. Q. Never at the front? — A. Yes, at the front, invalided from Prance and dis- charged 31st July, 1916, granted $100 gratuity. He has a wife and three children. For seven months he has hardly earned a thing : he is getting worse every day. When he was working before he went to the war he was earning $75 a month. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Has he applied for a new board? — A. I believe he has. I do not know but J understood he had. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. He is getting nothing at all from the Government ?-^A. Xot now as far as I know. By the Chairman: Q. Are the members of your association thoroughly conversant with all the recent orders passed about recruiting ? — A. No, they were not conversant with another suggestion which I am making here, which is a new order in council and which I pointed out to them I understood had been passed, which was one of their main grie- vances, the over-lapping between the time of the payment of the salary for the soldiers and the division that had been provided for. Q. That has been remedied? — A. Yes, they are very much pleased with that. These are individual cases that they asked me to mention. Now this is a poinl which they wish me to mention to you: they say that when a man is wounded in France and returned to England, in an hospital, a board of from three to five sit [Major L. P. D. Tilley.] EECEPTION, TREATME:ST AXD RE-EDUCATION 517 on his case, and, as they say, it is a very thorough board, and they arrange the classifications and pensions for the men. . They come out to Canada and another board sits on the case. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Is that English board made up of Canadian physicians? — A. I do not know that. They tell me it is made up as a rule of a colonel, lieutenant-colonel and ? medical officer and a legal representative. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. They would be Canadian officials? — A. I imagine they are. Then they come back and have another board sit on them at Halifax, Quebec, or wherever it may be. By the Chairman: > Q. It may be a month or two later? — A. Yes, and they say the inspection they get in England seems to be perhaps more thorough than the one they get here. In any case they say that in many cases their recommendation from the Board here is for a less pension than they were recommended for by the board that sat in England. That is one of their grievances. Mr. Bkxnett: That is not a fair statement, because each case depends upon the facts in each particular case, depends upon the man's condition. They have the report of the board in front of them, and they deal with a man's condition as they find him. There is nuthing in that complaint at all. The Witness : I am giving it to you for what it is worth. I happen to know of a case myself personally, where a returned soldier came back and passed the board at Halifax, and was discharged on the 7th August, and he was troubled with varicose veins. It broke out and he was afterwards reinstated and put in an hospital and he had medical treatment. That is one of the things that may happen; but at the same time if that man had been stripped the second time and his legs examined they would have seen it. I saw it myself. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. That is liable to break out ? — A. Yes, those are things you cannot help. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Perhaps that man wanted to be discharged? — A. No, he did not. He was very anxious to hang on to his pay. He would have been verj- glad to have been kept right on with his pay. By the Chairman: Q. Have you further cases? — A. Yes, I have. This is a memorandum handed me by the Young Women's Patriotic Association in St. John, a very live association. Q. Mrs. Kuhring's association? — A. No, this is another association altogether, the Young Women's Patriotic Association of St. John, a membership of 300. They are yi)ung women that go into the largest moving picture bouses, the Imperial and so on, and give their services as ushers free — at least not free; they take their pay and give it all to the fund for returnoil soldiers, and there are 350 of them. It was an organization we started last summer and was very effective. I just mentioti tliis case and it will cover perhaps other cases of the kind. Then here is another case: Private Angus ^IcVicar in the convalescent home since June, 1916, woundeil, shrapnel pressing on the brain, operated on in the public general hospital within the last couple of months. He paid $2 a day and the government allowance is $1.50 a day. The balance of $14 he paid himself. Q. Private ward, I suppose? — A. I presmne so. [Major L. P. D. Tilley.] 518 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Bennett: Q. One would have thought the hospital would have paid that 50 cents ? — A. They paid the difference for this man and thought the government should stretch a point and do it themselves. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. He was being paid $1.50 and the hospital charged $2 a day: is that it? — A. Exactly. Q. That is the hospital charge for a private room ? — A. Yes, and also $10 for oper- ating room. Q. He was charged as a private paying patient. He should have been treated absolutely free if he had not come in as a private paying patient ? — A. Yes. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Go back to that case where the man is a public charge. Do I understand the man is not getting the pension and no effort made to obtain the pension for him? — A. That is the report I have received. Q. Should not something be done by the Soldiers' Aid Commission in a case of that kind? — A. In what way? Q. To make application for a pension for him? — A. I do not know. I imagine there may have been some application. Mr. Middlebro : He could make an application to be re-boarded. By the Chairman: Q. Have you any criticism to make of a general character as to the efficiency and sufficiency of the existing organization for the care of returned soldiers; nothing that you would suggest by way of improvement? — A. Might I point out one other case which seems a little too extraordinary to be possible: there may be other cases of this kind that occur, and while it is not a returned wounded soldier, it is a man who volunteered for overseas and was with one of the units going overseas. Q. He never enlisted? — A. Yes, he enlisted and was a member of the battalion. Q. But never went overseas? — A. No. It is a case that I would not really know how to handle myself hardly, because it was one that was peculiar in that way. A recruiting party of the 145th Battalion were recruiting in Albert County and were going down into the county in eight or ten automobiles. One of the automobiles went over the bank and three of the men were injured; one was so very seriously injured that I doubt if he ever recovers. There were payments in connection with that man's treatment and operations which Headquarters, Halifax, informed me amounted to nearly $900, Now, that man did not go overseas and was not wounded. By the Chairman: Q. Who paid the bill? — A. The last time I heard of the ease I do not think the bills had been paid. Q. To whom are the bills owing?— A. They are owing to doctors, nurses and the hospital. Q. Do you mean the hospital at Halifax? — A. St. John. He went to St. John for the operation. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Was this man a private soldier? — A. Yes, Senator, he was. Hon. Mr. Daniel : If he went into the hospital at St. John as an ordinary patient he would not be charged one single cent, the Government would pay the bills. The Chairman: If he had taken advantage of the accommodation the Government provides for injured men, there would have been no cost to him. tMajor L. P. D. Tilley.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 519 Hon. Mr. Daniel: Not in the hospital at St. John, but there might have been in the case of the Moncton hospital. The Witness : At any rate, the man was very seriously injured and he had to have an operation performed on him. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Do you say that he was a recruit ? — A. He was a member of the 145th Battalion, and at the tinie of the accident they were recruiting for their battalion. Mr. Kobinson was asked a minute ago what the Provincial Government had mapped out for the returned soldiers. By the Chairman: Q. Can you give us the name of the man who was so seriously injured? — A. I am afraid I cannot remember it just at the moment, but I will procure the name and give it to you. I saw the poor chap getting on the train a month or two ago and he was in very bad shape. Anybody who looked at him would have readily said that the bill for his treatment and operation should be paid even though it was $1,000. Q. It depends upon whether the bill be reasonable or not? — A. Quite so. Q. If the doctor is charging him $500 for his services the bill ought not to be paid unless it is a reasonable one. — A. I think that is the reason the bill has not been paid. The charges are being looked into. Q. It is not so much a lack of sympathy for the poor fellow as it is a question whether the accident should be made an opportunity of overcharging on the part of the people who served him? — A. Quite so. Q. You were going to tell us sometliihg about the Government proposition for dealing with returned soldiers. — A. The bill which embodies the Government's plan was passed at the last session of the Nova Scotia Legislature, but it has not become effective yet, and I do not know whether it will be made effective in its present form, because a change of Government has occurred in the Province of New Brunswick and the new Government may adopt a different policy. This bill was passed as, " 6 George V, Chapter 9, Legislative Assembly, 1916." Q. Will you tell us very briefly what the meaning of the bill is, and then give a copy to the secretary for insertion in the record? — A. This copy, which I will fyle, was given to me by the premier at my request, and it deals with what we call " The Group vSystem of Farms for Returned Soldiers ". The Government have worked out a plan by which Crown Land shall be given to the soldiers free, in sections of from 10 to 100 acres. In other cases, where the returned soldiers are purchasing land from private individuals, the Government will buy it and sell it to the soldier at the actual cost price, making him an advance on it, he paying 5 per cent down and the balance to be payable in 19 years. Q. I think we will be glad to have that put into the record. — A. The whole matter is set out here very fully. (Indicating copy of bill.) The Chairman : Just at the present time we are not studying the demobilization problem. Mr. MiDDLEBRO; There is no use putting this on the record unless it is going to be enacted. The Witness : It is the law now, but it may be amended or changed, by the in- coming Government, or they may work out some different scheme. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Do the returned soldiers who take advantage of this plan get absolute title to the land at once under that Act? — A. No, not for ten years, Mr. Pardee. [Major L. P. D. Tilley.] 520 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. The organization of soldiers, that you had a conversation with before you came up, is it what is known as The European Veterans' Association? — A. Yes. Over 100 strong-. There are, I think, about 150 returned wounded soldiers in St. John, and over 100 are members of this Association. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. Does this organization represent the returned soldiers for the whole province, or merely those in certain localities ? — A. The organization covers the city and county of St. John, but there are different subsidiary branches. There is one, I think, in Fredericton. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. It is a Provincial Institution, is it? — A. Yes. It has branches all over the Province. Witness discharged. Mrs. Kuhring: St. John, N.B., called and exannned. By the Chairman: Q. I understand you are connected with one of the organizations in St. John, which has a good deal to do with the care of returned soldiers? — A. I am President of the "Women's Canadian Club and belong to other Committees. The representations which I felt I might perhaps make in response to the invitation of the Committee have to do with the reception and care of returning men by voluntary workers. I think all our Patriotic Societies are doing something to promote the welfare of the returned soldiers. Q. We are particularly anxious to have you tell us Avherein your experience has .o.hown that the present measures for caring for the returned soldiers are not sufficient, or efficient. The Committee are particularly anxious to get any suggestions you have to offer as to the way in which the care of returned soldiers can be made more suc- cessful than it is at present. — A. In my invitation to appear before the Committee I was asked to state what we were doing in the way of reception and care and how far the men are being made comfortable. Q. Very well, you can do that. — A. I think it would be easier, perhaps, for me to give you the information in my own way. I happen to be the President of the Women's Canadian Club in St. John. A Convalescent Home was opened for the returned soldiers by the Hospitals Commission, and we were invited by Dr. Walker, who is one of the Commission, to be a sort of House Committee, and to make of it as much of a home and as little of an institution as we possibly could, just as is being done at the other Convalescent Homes. We did so, and have continued to add little luxuries and comforts in the way of furnishings, amusements, outings, entertainments, supplies of fruit and other things that appear to us to be necessary. We do whatever we can with the help of our citizens, to promote the comfort and welfare of these men. In the Home our workers endeavour to support authority while helping to keep the men cheerful and contented. These voluntary workers assist in the care of the dormitories and recreation rooms in many other ways under the direction of the Matron. Q. Do you mingle the men who have returned from overseas with the men who are going overseas? — A. I do not think the Home is refused to any convalescing soldier. Q. You admit anyone who is in khaki? — A. Of course the institution is a Com- mission Home. We have not established the institution; we simply provide the extra help and so forth along the lines I have mentioned. The matter of admission is dealt with by the Commission. I do not know what their policy is in that regard. We [Mrs. Kuhring.] liECEPTIOy, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATIOX 521 simply go to the institution and do what we can for the men who are there. The Home at present is full to capacity, there being about 30 inmates. Any drawbacks which we encomiter are due to the small size of the Home. Q. Do you take both camp cases and returned soldiers, or only the latter class? —A. I have nothing to do with that subject, sir, and do not know how that is arranged. We are only voluntary workers, you see. We do not question the men as to whether they are returned soldiers or not. The Voluntary Aid, of course, are doing work that they are doing at other centres. They attend to the recreation rooms and dormitories and so on, and maintain a cheerful atmosphere. We have a very good Soldiers' Club in St. John, where the returned men are sometimes entertained on special occasions. But they do not appear to want to come to the Soldiers' Club to mix with the men who are going overseas. They go very largely to the Discharge Depot. Q. Your work is with the men going overseas ? — A. The work I speak of is to make the men happy, content^ -1 and cheerful, in the Convalescent Home, and I find that they are so as a rule. Q. You come in constant contact with the men in the Convalescent Home? Are they as a rule satisfied with the treatment they get? — A. Yes, except that sometimes they do not feel that they see enough of the doctor. Even when the doctor's presence may not be absolutely necessary, it seems a pity they could not have him see them, hear what they have to say and question them, so as to make them feel more contented. No doubt there are some things which they are suffering from which only time will cure. I mean to say, in fact, that I believe any discontent or complaint is largely due to our not being a large enough institution to demand siifficient capable supervision by proper officers. Q. How many are there in the Convalescent Home? — A. 30 at the present time. This does not include the number that go in and out for treatment. A very good vocational outfit has been provided and the men may make a choice of an occupation in which they desire instruction. Of course the men need a good deal of incentive to induce them to take up some of these studies or vocations. We help by selling tho articles they make and in other ways. Q. Do you help to get employment for the men? — A. No. Mr. Robinson, Secre- tary of the Soldiers' Aid Commission attends to that, but we do all that lies in our power to make their lot easy. Q. Have any complaints been made to you in regard to any matters other than what you have mentioned? — A. Some of the complaints of the men are due to an ex- cess of ambition and lack of efficiency. We are doing all we can for them, the oppor- tunity is there to improve themselves, and so far, Mr. Robinson says there has not been any lack of suitable positions for them to fill when they are ready. They are to improve this, and there has not been any lack so far, for suitable patients. Q. Has there been any lack of accommodation whatever at the Convalescent home? — A. No, I think they have been a little crowded sometimes, perhaps. Q. Do you consider that the provisions that are at present to be found in St. John are dealing adequately with the situation as regards the returned soldier? — A. I think so. I think if we had a larger institution if it was so that there were more men to be accommodated there, I have no doubt there could be an effort made to provide better conditions; I mean with regard to medical supervision. It is hardly likely that a doctor could be assigned to a Home to come frequently if there are only 30 men there. Q. The accommodation is now ample, but if there is to be a considerable influx of returned men you would be crowded ? — A. Yes, we are filled now to capacity. There would not be any room now, at the present time, for more. We have a very enthusi- actic reception committee for returning soldiers. We give a personal greeting to the men on the wharf as they arrive. I suppose 3,500 men have been greeted by the Com- mittee on the wharf in this way and each one handed a little parcel of fruit, tobacco, candy, etc., done up in patriotic fashion with ribbon and flags. [Mrs. Kuhring.] 522 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. Those are the men who are going away? — A. No, the men coming back. Q. You have not had 3,500 men returning, at St. John ? — A, Yes, I think we have had that number. We have a committee of citizens appointed by the Mayor and by different societies, of which I am a member, we have Mr. Herbert Mayes as Chairman, and the members of that committee go down to the wharf and to the station. Q. Of that 3,500 men who have received a greeting at St. John from your com- mittee, many have been scattered all over the Dominion? — A. Yes, they do not all remain in St. John. We have personal communication with every man who comes off the steamer; as he comes down the gang-plank, no matter what thd hour or the weather, the business men and the ladies gather there to cheer them when they arrive and see them to the different cars that will take them to the points where they are going. When they are in the cars we go in with a basket filled with parcels, done up with patriotic flags, etc., and give every man a parcel. I do not think there is a more cheer- ful party of men than those men who are pleased to be home, and we give them a little greeting from Canada, and there are no complaints from the returning men. We just want to assure you that there are no men who are returning to Canada who will not receive a greeting on their arrival, no matter when they come. We take a number of newspapers and magazines, we try to get newspapers from all parts of Canada so that each man will be able to get a paper from his own town, when he arrives. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. You speak as if all these men came back by steamer; is it not a fact that they also come by train as well as by steamer ? — A. Yes, some of the soldiers come by train from Halifax, and some from Quebec, and we have notice of their arrival — the only difficulty has been that of getting notice. But whenever notice has been given the men of our Committee secure motors, decorate them with flags, and meet these men and take them to their homes. Every returned soldier that comes through St. John is greeted by the citizens, that is the members of this Committee, and the work seems to be very thoroughly carried out. They also have a similar committee at Moncton, where every soldier's train going through, whether containing men going overseas, or returning, no matter what the hour or the weather may be, is greeted by the Brass Band at the station. This greeting is very much appreciated. We have an organiza- tion working at the discharge depot the members of which do any work they can there, and the Young Women's Patriotic Association is very glad to have any suggestion made to it. I might mention by way of illustration of the work which that association is doing that a man in the convalescent home wanted a particular operation, which he thought would be of great benefit to him; he had epilepsy, and he thought there was a probable chance if he had a very expert operation performed it would put him on his feet again. The Young Women's Patriotic Association, when informed of the cir- cumstances, very gladly took charge of the case and had him taken to the hospital *vhere the operation was performed. I regret to say that it has not done him any good. By the Chairman: Q. Have you anything further to add to your statement? — A. No, except that when the men have complained to us, we pass them on the official authorities and they have always seemed to be perfectly satisfied. We have occasionally communication with the War Veterans Association. Q. Their dissatisfaction, is, I understand, generally on account of the pensions? — A. Sometimes on account of the pension, and sometimes because they do not under- stand how many associations are working for their benefit. I have sent them to the other associations, and I think if there could be some kind of co-operation in that way we would clear away a great deal of misunderstanding which sometimes arises. Q. It has been suggested in Montreal, that there should be a co-operative Com- mittee, which should meet every month, or every week, as may be necessary, for the [Mrs. Kuhring:.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AXD RE-EDUCAriOX 523 purpose of getting the different associations to work together with a view to preventing overlapping. Have you anything of that kind in St. John? — A. Everything goes to Mr. Kobinson. It might be well if there could be some intercommunication between his office and the other organization, Q. You think it would be better to have some kind of clearing house, in order to prevent overlapping? — A. The difficulty is to avoid meetings, that is what we are trying to avoid, but it would be well to have communication between Mr. Robinson's office and the different patriotic societies, as to the complaints that may come in. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Do you know how many societies there are actively engaged in the work of looking after the returned soldiers? — A. The Patriotic Visitors are thoroughly active and well-informed about every case of enlisted men and their families. Q. How many associations are there among the ladies? — A. That is the first one and the leading one. The Patriotic Fund Visitors are very systematic and regular in the performance of their work. In addition to that we have the Soldiers' Wives League who do not dispense money, but who are very actively engaged in their own particular sphere of sympathy and help. The Women's Canadian Club is concerned with every- thing pertaining to the individual soldiers' welfare. There is also the Young Women's Patriotic Association, and the Daughters of the Empire all ready and glad to do any- thing they can to help in the work. The AVar Veterans, of course is a body of their own, and I think, if the War Veterans would come into touch more with the Volun- tary Societies perhaps they would benefit. Tlie duties of the Returned Soldiers Reception Committee cease at the wharf, although, of course, there is a connection very often formed, and the men oome back to the members of that committee for various assistance and advice. Q. That would make six associations that are operating. Do they overlap one another in their efforts? — A. I do not think they do because they chiefly answer appeals, and the appeals are, I think, very seldom made to two or three different people on one case. Witness discharged. Mr. W. B. MacCoy^ K.C, Halifax, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. I understand you are the secretary of the Returned Soldiers' Employment Bureau of Nova Scotia? — A. Yes, and I am giving my time to the work at the Dis- charge Depot as my contribution to war purposes. Q. Is that an organization created by the Provincial Government ? — A. Yes, under the Order in Council. Q. Who are your officers? — A. Tlie Hon. Mr. MacGregor, President, Senator Mc- Lennan. Mr. Justice Harris, Col. McDougall, ]Mr. Thomas J. Brown, of the Nova Scotia Steel, Mr. G. Fred Pearson, Mr. W. R. Wakcly, Mr. J. T. Joy, Sir Frederick Fraser, 'Mr. Frederick Sexton. Q. They are all appointed by the Government, but it is an absolutely non-partisan Commission? — A. Yes. Q. It is composed of members of both political parties, working together, entirely diverse from politics? — A. Yes. Q. The Hon. ;\rr. McGregor, and ^fr. MacDougall, did not come up? — A. Xo, they could not get away. Q. And you are here to speak for the Commission? — «A. Yes. Q. Will you tell us what your work consists of? — A. ^Mainly at its inception, two things, welcoming and employment. Of course it has, since its inception, enlarged its sphere very materially. [Mr. W. B. MacCoy.] 524 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. What are the powers given you by the Oi\ler in Council? — A. I can give you a copy of the Order if you wish. Q. You might place that on file as an exhibit if you like? (Order in Council filed and marked Exhibit No. 1.) Q. How many men have come back to Nova Scotia? — A. 729. Q. How many of those are in hospital to-day or are still undischarged? — A. 324. Q. Leaving 405 who have evidently been discharged? — A. No, sir, not altogether. Of that 405, there will be 319 placed in positions, 5 have died, 16 have taken vocational training, and 19 are either farmers, or farmers' sons. There are 11 that we have been unable to locate as yet, and there are unemployed 41. Q. That is you have found positions for three-fourths of that 400? — A. Yes. Q. And you have 41 waiting to be employed? — A. Yes. Q. How long have these 41 been on your hands?— -A. Less than ten days, they all came back on the last ship, and have not yet asked for employment though written to. Q. Prior to that had you all your men placed?— A. All but one. Q. Now then, will you tell us your experience in placing these returned men. Do you succeed in getting any considerable number on the farms? — A. No, sir, I find, as a rule, that although I ask them — ■! might say in passing that I also have to do with the discharge depot at Halifax, and therefore come in close touch with the returned men of the Maritime Provinces, and particularly the Nova Scotian men, and either myself or my representatives throughout the province have inquired of them if they will be ready to go in for farming, or to go back to farming, whichever it may be. The percentage, while I have not made it up, is very small. Q. Has any legislation been passed by the Provincial Government similar to that in New Brunswick, with a view of endeavouring to put returned soldiers on farm lands? — A. No. We have legislation however, called the "Land Settlement Act", which has been on the statute books for a few years, whereby any jjerson coming into the Province, or a farmer living within the Province, "wishing to purchase a farm, 80 per cent of the purchase price is advanced by the Government through a loan com- pany. Q. Though not especially passed for returned soldiers, that legislation is available for them? — A. That is it; and the Government are considering a proposition at the present time. Q. What class of occupations do you get for your men? — A. General, all kinds. Q. Do you find that the major portion of them are manual labourers? — A. Yes, I think so. Perhaps it would be safer to say half and half. Q. Have you had fairly good success in placing men in positions and have them retain them? Have you any considerable percentage of men who afterwards come back on your hands again? — A. Yes, I have. One man who came from Calgary, an exceptionally good man I may say, an Englishman by birth, I have had him placed in five positions. I must say in all fairness to the man that he was gassed and is very restless, and as yet has not settled down. Q. Does he not want to go back to Calgary? — A. I hardly think that he does. Q. Do you find that you ean get all the vacancies that are necessary for the men who come back? — A. Yes, Sir Herbert, we do. My trouble is probably the same as that of other secretaries throughout Canada: The greatest trouble is with the labour- ing man who has had no education. The greatest trouble is to place that man if he has had any severe disability. Q. That is, a man whose intellect goes with a pick and shovel, but whose physical characteristics will not carry him through the pick and shovel work? — A. Exactly. Q. What do you do with those men?— A. At the present time we get them very light jobs, watchmen, porters, elevator men, occupations of that kind. [Mr. W. B. MacCoy.] RECEPTIOy, TRKATMEyT AXD RE-EDUCATION 525 By Eon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. What proportion of your men have gone into the steel and coal industry? — A. The Dominion Coal Company have taken back 30 men, and the Nova Scotia Steel Company 25 men, that is approximately. By the Chairman: Q. Have these men been able to do the heavy work required in these industries'^ — A. Not altogether, sir. The Dominion Coal Company and the Nova Scotia Steel Company have been exceptionally good. At the commencement of our organization they notified me immediately that they would be willing to take back all those men and give them employment that they were physically fitted for. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Constant employment all the year round? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. Has your experience as secretary of the Returned Soldiers Employment Commission of Nova Scotia made you desirous of offering any suggestions to the Committee as to the way in which the lot of the returned soldier can be improved? — A. Well, there are some ; but the one particularly that I would suggest would be that we would have a permanency of medical boards. On account of our being at the discharge depot we have unfortunately no continuity of medical boards. By Mr. Bennett: Q. The personnel differs in every case practically? — A. Yes, pretty nearly. By lion. Mr. Marcil: Q. Who selects these boards ?— A. The A. D. M. S. By the Chairman: Q. Do they come down from Quebec? — A. No. Q. They are local boards ? — A. Yes. Q. The personnel of that board changes from month to month and from ship to ship?— A Up to some time ago, when we had a permanent board, I think, for three ships. Now it is changed again. Q. That causes a lack of uniformity in the findings?— A. A great deal, because a new medical board coming along does not get the hang of it for a while with the result that the findings of the board themselves vary a great deal. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. What is the object of changing them so often, why not employ the same men regularly? — A. Well, there are difficulties in the way. Q. Do the doctors themselves object to giving their time? — A. Some of them 1 think, possibly. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Have you made representations along these lines? — A. I have. Q. What was the reply ? — A. The reply has been that it would be attended to, and it was attended to for a while. Q. And then it drifted back to the old way? — A. Yes. Since these new regulations have come around Q. Is there a new regulation ?— A. It is new and old. These boards are always under the A. D. M. S., but the Military Hospitals Commission practically nominated them until a short time ago. Now, the Army Medical Service has come back again into its own. Q. Now, it is the A. D. M. S. and last week it was the Military Hospital Commis- sion, is that right ? — A. Practically. [Mr. W. B. MacCoy.] 526 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. The soldiers are discontented with the findings, one man thinks he is not fairly treated as compared with another man? — A. Not so much that, as the men themselves do not understand the classes, one, two or three. It affects them in this way: when they come for pension, the Pension Board looks at the findings of the Discharge Depot Board to some extent. Mr. Ross: That is what I mean. By Mr. Bennett: Q. The same Board examines the same ship usually, and in making up the board it depends upon whether a given man is busy at the particular moment he may be required ? — A. That practically is it. Q. And there is no permanent board charged with the responsibility of looking after these returned men and you think there should be ? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. How often do the ships come back ? — A. We average about two a month. Q. So that I suppose this board is very busy for three or four days and has nothing to do for ten days? — A. Yes. The Chairman: That is where the difiiculty comes in. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. If they knew they were going to be employed for each ship, it would be all right. They do not get the same assistants ?— A. They do not, and it militates against the men a great deal. By the Chairman: Q. That is a very valuable suggestion, the necessity of continuity in the case of the boards. Have you any further suggestions to make? — A. I think the others I had in my mind are being worked out, Sir Herbert, I do not think it is worth while men- tioning them. Q. These recent regulations have done away with the criticisms you were going to make?— A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Have you anything to do with the hospitals, Mr. McCoy?— A. Yes, indirectly, for the C.E.F., and even Home Guard men. We look after Home Guard men. Q. As well a^ CE.F.?- A. Yes. Q. Do you have anything to do with them in your capacity as secretary? — A. Yes, and for employment. I often get letters asking me to help them out with arrears of pay, or something like that. Q. Are your hospital accommodations and arrangements quite satisfactory from the returned soldiers standpoint? — A. Decidedly not. Q. Why?^— A. Well, my answer to that, if you will allow me to refer to my docu- ments, is that up to the date of this tabulated report, February 22, we have had 274 men Q. In hospital? — A. No, not in hospital, but who should be in hospital. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Out-patients? — A. They are out-patients, but not in the sense of that term. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Where are they now? — A. They are scattered all over the province; some are in their homes. When I say that, I am speaking of the date of my report. They are broken up in this way: 19 were receiving hospital treatment; 87 were supposed to go [Mr. W. B. MacCoy.] RECEPTIOy, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 527 to a convalescent home; and 53 into a sanitarium. You might say we have no sani- tarium. True, we have a sanitarium at Kentville, but it is overcrowded with civilian patients, and we can only get a few soldiers in it. Q. The soldiers could not "get in ? — A. No. For instance, to quote from the actual recommendations of the board : here is a man who is recommended for treatment in a convalescent home for three months. He is at home. Another, recommended to a T. B. sanitarium for three to six months, he is at home, and so forth throughout the report. Q. How many hospitals have you? — A. We have no hospital in the sense. that you are asking me. We have two convalescent homes. The Ross Home at Sydney which will hold about 30, and the Clayton Home which will hold probably 25 at the outside. Q. Outside of the military hospital, these are the only ones you have? Do you consider that these men are being badly prejudiced in the way of health by not receiv- ing proper treatment? — A. I certainly do, and I made a report to the Committee. Q. Have you that with you? — A. Yes. Q. Will you give us a synopsis of it and put it on fyle to be printed? — A. Yes. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. What date is the report? — A. February 22. By Mr. Pardee: Q. This year?— A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. A report from you to your Committee? — A. Yes. Q. It contains nothing of a character that you or your Committee would regard as private? — A. Not at all. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What is the synopsis of that report? — A. I think the easiest way would be for me to go through the correspondence giving it as it is. In March 1916 I asked what convalescent home provision was to be made in Nova Scotia. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Whom did you report to? — A. The Secretary of the Military Hospitals Com- mission, Mr. Scammell. I received a letter from Mr. Scammell in which he said: "■ At the present time th There is the Khaki League and the Eeturned Soldiers' Association, which has only started lately, I understand. There is the Provincial Employment Bureau, which is the regular organization for civilians. They report to us. We have blank forms which we send to the Provincial Bureaus, because those who have been in the habit of using these bureaus before enlisting would naturally go back to them. We ask these bureaus to fill out a blank form which we send them, which they do very ably. We give them credit for the men placed. We do the same thing with the Khaki Club, also with the large concerns, such as the Imperial Munitions who employ a lot of returned soldiers. In each case tJie report is placed in the folder of the soldier so placed. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: [Q. Are these forms returned direct by the employers'? — A. They were, until recently. Someone at the Khaki Club League went to the Imperial Munition office and asked for them. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. How do you mean — asked that they be returned to them instead of to your Commission? — A. Yes. Q. Was there a request of that kind complied with by the manufacturers? — A. Yes. When this occurred, I sent the Secretary to make enquiry as to what was the necessity for it. We failed to see the necessity of having that done, that the soldiers placed by our recommendation from our office should have been returned to us directly instead of by another institution. The forms might get lost and mixed, and we would know nothing about them. The man in charge at the Imperial Mimitions told him that it was at the request of the Returned Soldiers' Association, but I must say that the Returned Soldiers' Association, I think it was Trooper Brown, came to the office and delivered a bunch of their applications. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Reports? — A. Reports, in which he had marked those placed by the Khaki Club, and the others returned as made up by the Imperial Munitions. By the Chairman: Q. You have no objections to having the Khaki Club place men, but they should report to you, so that you will not be looking for a job for men who have been placed f — A. We are ready to give the Khaki Club credit for the good work they are doing, and we appreciate it. We do not care if they place every returned soldier, but as we are the official body accepting the responsibility of endeavouring to find positions for returned soldiers, and as we will be called upon to make a report to the Military Hospitals Commission of the number of men placed in the Province, we think the reports should be made to us. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Have you made an error in saying that Trooper Brown is connected with the Khaki League? Is he an employee of the Khaki League? — A. My understanding is [Honourable George A. Simard.] 552 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETUIiNED SOLDIERS that those two institutions are in the same building, -working together, and that the Khaki League has organized lately a department of employment of which Trooper Brown will be in charge. That information is contained, I believe, in a letter. By the Chairman: Q. Trooper Brown is Secretary of the Returned Soldiers Association. Your contention, I understand, Mr. Simard, is that the Returned Soldiers Association and the Khaki Club and all other organizations trying to find jobs for returned soldiers should report to you so that your Commission would be the clearing house for them all?— A. That is it. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Among those applying for employment do you find that a large number come from the country districts, or are they largely from the cities? — A. From the city, sir. We seldom hear of those that have enlisted from the municipalities or rural districts, farmers' sons or village boys. We have had but very few cases applying to us for employment, as they go back home to their fathers in the country. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. Following up Mr. Marcil's question you heard Mr. Evans' evidence here with regard to a certain party who went out into the outlying districts from Kingston. Do you find that you have facilities for i^lacing and looking after men in the outlying districts, or do you lose track of them once they go out into the outlying districts? 1 think the evidence before the Committee is that the soldier is pretty well looked after when he comes to the large centres, but so far as I gather he goes out into the rural districts or the smaller towns and villages and the maoliinery is not as efficient as it is in the large centres. Do you find that to be the case in your province ? — A. We have had no complaints as to that. We are prepared to open up bureaux in any district wherever the necessity will be shown. As I said we might have had two or three complaints — I do not believe more — of soldiers who were out of work, who wanted work in a mill close to their place. We asked these soldiers to go and see the mayor of the municipality and have him take up the case with us, and they immediately take up the case with their mayor and we have found them very willing, and we think this, so far as least, is the best way, because in all these rural towns the mayor takes pride in a soldier who has gone to the front, and he will see he is taken care of, he knows him, knows the father and mother and the whole family. By the Chairman: Q. All through the Province of Quebec there are municipalities, and every municipality has its mayor. There are some 12 or 10 hundred municipalities. When you want to place a man in the country you communicate with the mayor do you not? — A. First we must have the demand from the soldier. Q. Supposing a soldier says he wants to go to Marieville to find a place there, it is through the mayors you work ? — A. Yes, if a soldier says " I want to work at a certain mill in Marieville " we will take it up that way. Q. Through the mayor? — A. Yes, and we get answers. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. How many branches of your association have you in the province? — A. Three outside of Montreal. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Where are they? — A. Three Rivers, Sherbrooke and Quobec By the Chairman: Q. Is there anything else you want to tell us ? — A. No. Q. Can Mr. Pye add anything to what you have given us? — A. No. [Honourable George A. Simard.] liECEPTIOy, THE ATM EXT AyO RE-EDUCATION 553 Q. Is there any use calling? — A. I do not think so. I keep in very close touch with all the work. I am there and my personal office is close to the commission office. Q. You are giving a great share of your time to this work? — A. A great deal of it. J am there every morning and afternoon and I do a great deal of work by telephone. Q. You have given us a very useful contribution? — A. I have been very glad to do it. Witness discharged. So as to supplement my evidence before this special committee on returned soldiers, I beg leave to propound the following views: — 1. Taking for granted that during the coming year England, France and Italy will have to import from foreign countries two-thirds of the wheat needed for the feed- ing of their inhabitants, I would advise the re-enlistment of the soldiers already dis- charged and medically fit and the keeping under the colours of those who will come back when tlie war is over. All of them would be put to work upon the Crown lands in the Western Provinces and would receive the same pay and the same allowances as hereto- fore. As occasion arises, they would gradually re-enter civil life and devote themselves to other callings. There would be no compulsion. Those asking their discharge would have it. Then, they could no more complain or grumble. Naturally, preference should be given to single men. Soldiers lately returned would have a limited furlough to visit their families and attend to urgent business. Of course, the first result of such an experiment would be the growing of wheat. But in my opinion, there might be ano- ther result of far more import. Having been paid for breaking the land, the soldier might take a liking to farming and settle upon a homestead which would be so much the better for himself and for the country. Thus could be established in several West- ern districts settlements of returned soldiers. The Government would, as a matter of course, provide all the requisites, horses, tools and implements of husbandry. These could be re-sold either to the settlements or to individuals. Should the soldiers refuse to re-enlist or to serve any more, they would have only themselves to blame if they found no other employment since the Government would have made a generous offer to them. 2. As some may truly say that among the returned soldiers a great many would be unwilling to devote themselves to agricultural pursuits, these could be set to work under the above mentioned system on a transcontinental highway. The opening of sucli a thoroughfare is the common topic. Everybody, it seems, is for it. When our soldiers come back and the four thousand munition workers are thrown out of employ- ment, time will be ripe for tl),e carrying on of such an undertaking. Our hardy sons, our patient toilers would benefit by it and a difficult problem would be solved. More- over, the interned aliens should be liberated in such a manner that they would not vm- duly compete with our own unemployed, that they would not encumber an already con- gested labour market. In conclusion, let me say that there are undoubtedly many other ways to provide employment for our returned soldiers, especially during the transitory period, when the former munition workers and the discharged soldiers will all be clamouring for work. But the necessity of an early decision is what I am driving at. The problem should be promptly solved in order to avoid considerable unpleasantness later on. The more so should it be decided to open a transcontinental highway. The proper author- ities of the different Provinces should meet at once and agree upon a survey, because the location of the road would require a certain time. Time flies swiftly and not a mo- ment should be lost. [Honourable George A. Simard.l 554 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETURNED SOLDIERS Dr. F. H. Sexton called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. You are vocational officer of the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. Yes. Q. What is the district over which you operate? — A. Quebec and the Maritime Provinces. Q. What previous training in vocational work have you had? — A. After I graduated in Mining Engineering from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, I taught there for a year in metallurgy. Since then I have taught for three years at Dalhousie University in mining engineering and metallurgy, and since that time I have been for 12 years Principal of the Nova Scotia Technical College and Director of Technical Education for Nova Scotia. Q. At the time of accepting your present position you were Director of Technical Education for Nova Scotia? — A. Yes, and still carry on the work of that office. Q. You may describe for the Committee, perhaps, taking it province by province, the work thai is being carried on in the way of giving Technical Education and voca- tional training to returned soldiers : take Nova Scotia first, then Prince Edward Island and then New Brunswick? — A. If you do not mind I would like to take it in chrono- logical order. On the 3rd April, 1916, we started simultaneously at the Ross Military Hospital in Sydney and the convalescent homes in Montreal, Vocational Training for the returned soldiers, in a very simple way. Q. Just define in a word what you mean by Vocational Training? — A. This Voca- tional Training, is supplementary to the medical treatment in a convalescent home, and was introduced into the homes principally for therapeutic value. Q. Vocational Training and Educational are two different things? — A. Quite different. Q. Tell us about the Vocational Training ? — A. Vocational Training was provided in the homes for its therapeutic value. It is to cure a man more quickly by keeping him busy and also for its disciplinary value; making a man more amenable to the rules of the home, because he is not sitting around idling away his time. We started simply by offering instruction in general subjects : arithmetic, English, mechanical and archi- tectural drawing and woodwork. Since that time the subjects have been added to, and the work extended and intensified. This work has to be supplementary, as I say to the medical treatment, and if a man is called for a medical board, a medical parade or for massage treatment, he loses his time in the classes. The work which the men do may be suspended at any time by the medical officer, if "it is thought the effort the man is making in the class is not beneficial to him physically or mentally. That has hap- pened in some cases, especially with tuberculosis cases. Q. As between the two, the medical exigencies govern? — A. They are absolutely supreme. The idea is to make this work just as practical as possible, otherwise it would not interest the man and would be of no value to him in increasing his wage-earning power when he gets out of the, home. Sometimes a man is only in classes for a month, sometimes three, or five months, usually not longer than that, and anybody who has had any experience with educational work knows how little you can give a man in that short time, when he occupies only four or five hours a day. Some of the results how- ever that have been obtained are remarkable. We have placed many men on their feet and given them the idea that they do not know enough to succeed in life. We stimu- late their ambition and make them conscious of their power to go out and take up civilian occupations aarain and have really directed them into the proper channel of industrial activity by our Technical Training. Q. Do you find a man who has had a long convalesence is timid in re-engaging in civil life and requires to get his confidence back again? — A. I find that condition in most of the returned men. They have had a long period of convalesence in Great Britain and France and when they come back here they are mentally sluggish. They [Dr. F. H. Sexton. 1 RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 555 do not react to ordinary stimuli as readily as they did before they went away, and they have to be interviewed again and again and encouraged and helped along in the work until their interest is aroused. Of the men who come back, perhaps one-third are ambitious and are easily persuaded to enter the classes. Another third comes with some encouragement, and the last third are very difficult to secure in any of the instruc- tion we can offer. We have extended the vocational training from the time we started. It was intro- duced into the Parks Convalescent Home at St. John, N.B., April 24, 191G, at Savard Convalescent Home, Quebec, June 13, at Laurentide Inn for tuberculous patients, at Ste. Agathe des Monts, Quebec, in the middle of November, 1916 , at the Lake Edward Sanatorium, Lake Edward, Quebec, on the 15th January, and at the Dalton Sanitorium, Prince Edward Island on the 1st March, so that there has been a con- tinuous steady progress. The procedure is this: When a man comes into a con- valescent home from abroad, he is allowed two weeks after he reports to the home for treatment in which he has physical exercise for four half-hour periods each day. He does not have to take up any classes at first, and very often does not take up any instruction until that two weeks' period is finished, and simply browses around in the classes. He sees the other men working in various ways, and he has a chance to observe the kinds of work offered and decide what he wants to take up. The Military Hos- pitals Commission promulgated an order saying it was compulsory for men to take classes in the Homes during their period of convalescence during a certain number of hours each day unless excused by the medical officer, but the vocational department has never thought it worth while to force that issue to its ultimate limit, because a disinterested student, or one who is dragged into the class by force is not very satis- factory himself and tends to depress the spirit of the class. There is some difficulty in the convalescent homes in providing a rounded-out training for the men, because they come there for varying periods. One class may have in it a man who is learning to read and a college student who may be studying Latin composition for a high class of Civil Service. As I say, they are being discharged out of the class all the time, and new men are coming in, so that the instruction is on an absolutely new basis. You cannot have recitations as you do in public schools, one reason for that being that the men themselves do not want to get up before their fellow soldiers and perhaps exliibit some ignorance they are not supposed to have. At the present time we teach these subjects. French, English, arithmetic, preparation for the Civil Service examination, mechanical and architectural drawing, stenography, typewriting, bookkeeping, motor mechanics, agriculture, machine tool operating, shoe repairing, woodworking and novelty work. Q. You do'not teach all these occupations at each place? — A. No, a small Home will only justify the expense of two or three teachers. Q. Take the Grey Nunnery, for example, how many of these occupations will be tauglit there? — A. All except agriculture. Q. All at the one place? — A. Yes. Q. When you move into Loyola College will you hare accommodation there for your classes ? — A. As far as we know we will have accommodation for the convalescents in ^fontreal at present and for perhaps three months more. There is ample accommo- dation, so far as we know now. Q. I understand you are giving a certain number of men a training at the present time in the Technical School and in McGill University? — A. That is right. Q. How are those experiments working out? — A. We have only been at McGill for a week and at the Technical School less than that, so that we are barely on our feet there yet, but the results are highly encouraging. Q. How many men are taking in these two classes? — A. I will have to refer that question to Lieutenant McCullum, who has the daily figures. [Dr. F. H. Sexton.] 556 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Lieutenant McCuLLU^r : There are 75 in attendance to-day. The Chairman : At tlie Technical School ? Lieutenant McCullum : And at McGill University. The Chairmax: Do these men walk from the Convalescent Home over to the classes ? Lieutenant McCullum : All the men who are able to do so. Those who are unable to walk go in a bus. The Chairman: How many hours a day are devoted to these classes in the Technical School and McGill University? Lieutenant McCullum: 4^ hours. The Chairman : You may now continue, Mr. Sexton. By Brigadier-G eiieral Mason: Q. Before you do so, there is one occupation which has not been referred to and which may be considered of great value, and that is the printing trade. At the Con- valescent Home at Eamsgate, England, there is a complete printing outfit, and the soldiers who are there as convalescents are able to supply the local needs in the matter of printing ^^ — A. I tliink it is a very suitable class to start. The only thing which has prevented us has been the initial cost of the plant, and if we sent the soldiers into any ordinary printing shop to take instruction there would not be enough machines idle to enable us to keep them by themselves. Brigadier-General Mason : In the case I spoke of expenses are paid and a little profit derived. By Mr. Bennett: Q. A witness here yesterday expressed the fear that mechanical drawing would not fit a man very well for civil life, because of the lack of demand and the competition of more highly skilled men. What do you say as to that? — A. We cannot usually carry men far enough in mechanical drawing to make them draftsmen in the time available, but the fact of adding drawing to the knowledge of skilled machinist, or a man who is engaged in building construction will substantially augment his wage earning power. We do not try to carry the students far enough to make them drafts- men, but to give them that practical kind of mechanical drawing, which would enable them to read blue prints. We had one man who had an aptitude, a latent aptitude, for mechanical drawing. He had had a desire all his life up to that time to take a course. In six weeks he developed such ability that he was engaged by the Government as a semi-skilled draftsman. Q. That was an outstanding case? — A. An outstanding exceptional case. Q. I suppose when you find that latent aptitude in a man you find out for what occupation he is best fitted before you give him training? — A. We do, sir. By the Chairman: Q. What percentage of your men willingly take the opportunities afforded them for vocational training? — A. Do you mean with persuasion i Q. Even under persuasion? — A. I would say that in small liomes wliere there is a better chance for the instructors to get at them than in the large homes, or a col- lection of homes as in Montreal, we get 80 or 85 per cent. Q. What percentage of the men at present in the Grey Xunnery are talcing vocational training? — A. Owing to our present disturbed condition it would be hardly fair to take that as an indication of exactly what may be expected in the next month, but there were 75 out of 240 men, only about 30 per cent. We have had no classes in the Grey Nuns Home since last Saturday. We have just completed the quarters out at the Technical School. Everything is at the Technical School. [Dr. p. H. Sexton.] RECEPTION', TREATMENT AXD RE-EDUCATION 557 Q. Then you will move the appliances now in the basement of the Grey Nuiniery over to the basement of Loyola College? — A. No, sir, to the Technical School. Q. Are you teaching any men at Loyola College yet? — A. Not at Loyola College, but at the Technical School. Everything is at the Technical School. Q. Now continue your statement. Dr. Sexton? — A. I would like to emphasize tho importance of this kind of work in restoring the confidence of the man in his mentai and physical power. As I said, they are sluggish when they come back from the front, and over half of these men believe that they are not fit to return to their former occupations; they think that they are worse oil than they really are. If they get interested in one of these classes and devote a certain amount of time to receiving instruction every day, they soon begin to pick up confidence in their power to meet the demands of civil life and go back to their old occupations or to other pursuits of a similar nature. Through one, two, three or four months' instruction this man picks up his physical strength, his mind gets started again in the direction of civil life, and ho goes back to his job more or less inclined to take up his old occupation or some other lucrative position. Q. There is a tendency, as a result of this instruction, to make the men self respecting and desirous of being self supporting without relying upon outside assis- tance? — A. I think, sir, that is unquestionable. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. It diminishes the number of men who simply settle down and expect the statp to support them. Do you not think so? — A. I do. I think there is a great psycho- logical as well as physical benefit from these classes. As a matter of fact, work is the basis of the German treatment of invalids; salvation tl^rough work. By Mr. Bennett: Q. That is, diverting the mind from consideration of one's own physical difficulties? — A. That is right, sir. By the Chairman: Q. Have you any recommendation to suggest that will tend still further to increase efficienpy? — A. I can submit some figures respecting an investigation luider- taken at the instance of Colonel C. F. Smith and carried out by Lieutenant McCullum. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. What is the general tendency of the investigation? — A. Showing the attitude towards agriculture and also in respect to the number of men who seem to have a grouch against the Military Hospitals Commission. Lieutenant McCullum interviewed 167 men at the Grey Nuns Convalescent Home, and those men signed statements which I have here and which you can see if you wish. Out of the 167, 155 were satisfied with their treatment and 12 were not. These latter had minor complaints which were very easily remedied and could have been remedied earlier if the men had applied fo the proper authority. Q. When were those signed? — A. They were signed during the last two weeks. Q. Have you a list of the 12 complaints? — A. Yes. Lt. McCullum would be the better man to tell you about them as he handled the cases personally. Q. Go on with your statement? — A. 70 per cent of these men stated at the time they were interviewed that they did not intend to return to their former occupations. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Were they city men or did they come from the country ? — A. Largely city men. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Were they largely men who have been wounded or disabled? — A. Practically all those men in the Grey Nuns Home are overseas men. Now, in connection with the [Dr. F. H. Sexton.] 558 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS attitude of the men toward agriculture, I presented a question which reads like this: " Did you ever work on a farm " ? 40 per cent had worked on farms, 60 per cent had not. Of the men who had worked on farms 50 per cent did not intend to return to farm life. When asked whether they would go and work on the farm if the Govern- ment were to assist in procuring it, 20 per cent said they would. Of the men who would take up farms, two-thirds had been on farms from two months to thirteen years. When asked, "Would you be willing to take some training in agriculture to prepare you for the farm " ? 23 per cent said yes. To the question, " Would you then make farming your life work " ? 22 per cent said yes. Q. 22 per cent of the total number? — A. 22 per cent of the total number inter- viewed and two-thirds of the men who had had previous farming experience. Q. 22 per cent out of 167, is it ?— A. Yes. That is 35 men out of 167. Q. Have you figured out the number of men who were not previously farmers who desire to go on the land? — A. Yes, sir, one-third. Q. One third of the men who were not farmers before they enlisted now desire to go on farms? — A. One third of the men who say they would go on farms have had no previous experience. Q. In other words, one third of what class of men ? — A. One third of 39 men said they would take up farms if the Government would provide them. By the Chairman : Q. 13 out of 39 men who had no farming experience would go on the land? — A. Yes. I carried out an investigation of 20 men at Savard Park Home at Quebec, where we have been teaching agriculture for about 4^ months, and the figures are substan- tially the same. Mr. Bennett : That is very strange. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Will you elaborate that a little further and tell us what percentage of the total number interviewed were willing to return to the farm? — A. I have just given you that information, sir. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. The information you have given would indicate that the men from the city do not want to go on the farm, and that those who have come from rhe farm do not want to go back in great numbers as before? — A. That is what we might reasonably infer. Q. And the number of fanners will be less than before by reason of this disinclin- ation on the part of returned soldiers? — A. That would seem to be so. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Were the 167 who were taken selected as being likely to go on farms? — ^A. Not at all. Q. That embraces all who were interviewed? — A. Yes. The 167 were simply taken as they could be secured for interviewing from the 240 men in the Home. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Do these men belong to the Province of Quebec? — A. All to the Province of Quebec. Q. Is the same thing true of Savard Park, Quebec? — A. The men interviewed at Savard Park were practically all from that vicinity. By the Chairman: Q. Have you any idea of the proiwrtion of French or English native born who are willing to go on farms? — A. I could not tell you, except that at Savard Park, as I remember the list of students at present — over half of them had French names. [Dr. F. H. Sexton.] I RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 559 Q. Consequently they were natives of the country? — A. They were mostly camp men. Q, You do not know what proportion of the 167 were native born ? — A. I could not tell you that without looking up the record. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. Is it not possible that when things become normal again a larger number of these men will want to go back to their former occupations with less disinclination than they entertain at the present time? — A. I think that is so, and when they come back they have the idea, which they have received from the recruiting officer who signed them up and from the treatment they have received in England that some sort of special thing is to be done in the way of providing occupations for them on the basis of their service to the country, and they are ready to take full advantage of the pro- visions made for them in that regard. By the Chairman: Q. They all expect something to be done for them above the average man? — A We find that every man thinlcs some other man's job is better than his own. When a man separates himself from civil life and enters military life, and then comes back to civil life again, he generally seems to think he would like to go back to some other line of work than that in which he was previously engaged. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. Do you not think that, to some extent, the unsettled state of these men is the absorbing interest which they now take in the progress of this war. They all want to keep in touch with the news from day to day, and they think they can lo that more easily in the large centres than they could in the country districts. Is not that partly the reason why the men do not want to go on the farm? — A. I w^-)i.iM not say tliat is the dominant motive; I think that some of them have lived in such close contact with other men, in large numbers, for two or three years, that they do not now want to go to country life, where they might have less opportunity of association with their feUows. By the Chairman: Q. They do not want the solitary life of the farm? — A. I think that is so. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. It is just possible that after the termination of the war that feeling will pass away? — A. Yes, and the general changes in the industrial condition in the Dominion will also tend to change their attitude. If generous provision is made for men whom we wish to get back to the farms, it may attract a certain number of those who are in the city now. With regard to re-education we have not done much in Montreal. One reason for this is that the organization of the Military Hospitals Commission has been in- complete and until this question of single control is settled, there cannot be much done along that line. Q. I think ^Ir. Kidner explained to the Committee pretty much what your plan is as to re-education; what we want from you is the local characteristic in connection with the work at Montreal? — A. All the blinded ex-soldiers are supposed to be trained at St. Dunstan's, but three men, one of whom came here from Yalcartier Camp, and the other two from overseas have necessitated attention here in Montreal. The man who came from Yalcartier Camp took his training at the School for the Blind, in !^^ontreal, and has made a good living ever since that time. I have a letter from the firm for which he is acting as agent, informing me that he is doing very good work and had recently earned $28 by three days effort. Another man who came back here has been sent to the School for the Blind at Halifax to learn to be a masseur. An- other man who came to us two weeks ago will be trained here as a brush-malvcr or broom-maker. Each man is trained for the occupation for which he seems beft fitted. [Dr. F. H. Sexton.] 560 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Is the proportion of blind men very large? — A. No, the proportion of blind among the disabled is very small. The question of re-education is really a reparation to the man for the loss of his earning power, in addition to the pension. That is, his pension is based upon his physical disability. Take the case of a miner who has partially lost his hearing. He receives only 20 per cent physical disability, but his industrial or wage-earning disability is practically 100 per cent at his old calling. If we re-educate him he will be able to earn practically what he earned before, in such a position as that of a colliery official. There are a large proportion of cases which re- education will put on the same wage-earning plane as the man occupied before his injury. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. But there will be a certain percentage who cannot be re-educated? — A. There are probably 20 per cent of these men who will not be capable of re-education, and what will be done with them I do not know. By the Chairman: Q. There is a residue for which we can do nothing along that line, and the country will have to take care of them? — A. That is so. Q. Will it be necessary to have a soldiers' home for the care of such cases? — A. I do not see how me can avoid it. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Who decides upon the line of re-education which a man shall receive? Does the man decide it himself? — A. He has to make the final decision, so that he knows he has something at stake in pursuing his re-education. You cannot take a man and force him to accept re-education along any line ; one can counsel him, and one can give him advice as to the industrial conditions, the chances of promotion and so forth, but he finally has to make the decision. Q. If you are satisfied that he will not be a success along the line that he has selected, what do you do? — A. We guide him into something else; he virtually accepts our advice, but he himself has to make the decision. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Are you referring to this district, or to the whole of Canada in your remarks with reference to the Soldiers' Home ? — A. I imagine that it will be on the same basis as the distribution of returned invalids, that is, there nvill be provincial centres so that the man will not be too far removed from his old home and associations. Q. Do I understand your idea of a Soldiers' Home as being for those who are unable to earn a living for themselves and especially perhaps as they advance in years. Is the idea you have in mind something like the Chelsea Hospital in the Old Country? — A. I have an idea of a home where there will be productive work carried on, and a farm colony with some manufacturing plant such as they have at the Guelph Prison Farm which is now being converted into a convalescent home. Q. That is an entirely different idea from that of the Chelsea Hospital? — A. That is primarily a place of rest for men with little productive capacity. Most of them are old before they are admitted. Q. And your proposition is to have a working home? — A. Yes. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Your idea is to have a home in which the men will not be idling, but where there will be employment; you do not want to make them dependeni in any way? — A. That is my idea. [Dr. F. H. Sexton.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 561 By the Chairman: Q. Have you any idea with reference to the question of the discharge of a man from the homes when he is physically fit, but before his re-education is completed? — A. Yes, I feel very strongly on that point. The men have been sent to the Convales- cent Homes, usually for a certain time for the purpose of giving them medical treat- ment. We try to plan a course of training for them covering the time estimated by the medical board at Halifax, St. John or Quebec. They go to those homes to get the most of it but when they are pronounced medically fit by the Board at the Home, they are discharged sooner than expected. Q. Because the fact that a man's education is not yet completed renders him eli- gible to be kept in the home a longer time with advantage, but if the medical man declares that he is fit for discharge, under the present system he will be discharged, but should he not be kept until his education is complete regardless of his physical condition? — A. That cannot be done unless you go beyond the established military precedent and custom. In view of the great lack of technical training in Canada, and in view of the fact that some of these ambitious men are gettiiig'very much out of the training which is being given them at the institutions, I think that the vocational officer or instructor should consult with the medical and military officers, before this man is sent out into the world in order to see whether it is not justifiable to keep him there a little longer and give him the necessary education which will make him a better producer and citizen. Q. That is that the recommendation of the vocational officer if it should indicate that the man's power of self-support would be considerably increased by a stay of a anonth or a month and a half longer, for the completion of his- education you would like to have it possible under the Military Regulations, that he should be retained for the additional period although physically fit? — A. Exactly. Q. You would in specially promising cases where an extension of the period would greatly increase the man's productive power make it possible for him to remain for that purpose? — A. Yes. Q. Have you anything to fyle, any statement that you would like to put in?— A. I think it is important. Gentlemen, to use such pressure as is possible to get some early decision on the policy of land settlement. I have many inquiries coming to me right along from soldiers who are discharged and who would like to know what opportuni- ties are to be offered them if they should start farming. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Of course you know that, except in the case of the three Prairie Provinces, it is essentially a provincial question with which this Committee has nothing to do? — A. There are a number of soldiers from this district who would like to go to the West, and who would like to know what will be done there in the way of concessions and encouragement to the returned soldiers to go into agriculture. By lion. Mr. McCurdy: Q. What is your opinion upon the question, ■n'licre discipline in the Convalescent Home should rest? — A. You mean military discipline? ■Q. Yes? — A. I am not a military man, and I don't think my advice upon that point would be of much value. The Chairman: You are an official of the Military Hospitals Commission. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. There is this point, should it rest with the medical officer, or should it be mili- tary? — A. It is my opinion it should be handW by a military officer, but the fatigues 28277—36 [Dr. F. H. Sexton.l 562 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS and crimes should pass through the medical officer who can say from his knowledge of the man's case whether or not that punishment should be carried out. I think that the medical officer has quite enough to do now in looking after the health of all these men, without having in addition to be responsible ibr all the petty details of discipline. Witness discharged. Sergeant Muri^ay called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. Mr. Simard, in his evidence, stated that the Dominion Bridge Company were employing several hundred r.eturned soldiers, and had been very successful and very helpful in helping him to solve this problem. I understand that you are the welfare officer, is that the title, of the Dominion Bridge Company? — A. I am the Intelligence Officer. Q. Will you tell us, very briefly, just what the principle and the practice of the Company is in the matter of employing returned soldiers, and what is your experience? — A. I would prefer, sir, that Mr. Armstrong, the works manager, who is present at the meeting, should give his evidence on that point. , Witness discharged. Mr. P. C. Armstrong called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. You are connected, Mr. Armstrong, with the -Dominion Bridge Company, I understand, and have had considerable to do with employing returned soldiers. I wish you would tell us briefly what your experience has been? — A. About eleven months ago we were doing some heavy recruiting for overseas at the Bridge Co., and at the same time we began to have several applications from returned soldiers for employ- ment, so we obtained at the time the services of Sergeant Murray upon the recommen- dation of the Headquarters staff, and used him first of all in recruiting for overseas service, and, as soon as we thought he had done all he could in that way, we asked him to act as employment officev and to look after returned soldiers. Since then I have taken a good deal of personal interest in the subject. We have employed 625 return,ed soldiers. Q. At what kind of work? — A. In everything, sir, inspecting shells, labouring, machining, watchmen, clerks, every kind of occupation. By Hon. Mr. lie Curdy: Q. How many are with you at the present time? — A. On March 12 there were 212 in the factory. By the Chairman: Q. About half the men have left you? — A. Bather more than that. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Why?^ — A. In many cases because they have obtained sufficient training with us to be able to look for better positions, and found it easier to accept these than to wait for promotion in our shop. A man goes out sometimes after a month or so with us to work somewhere else as an experienced inspector. Another reason is that soine of the men have found that their health would not stand the work. That has taken care of some. Others have used us more as a stopping place. We take the returned soldier in and do not object to his working a couple of months and going away. fMr. p. C. Armstrong.] RECEPTION, JJEAIMENT liYD RE-EDVCATION 563 By the Chairman: Q. You are quite willing to bo used as an educational institution for the returned soldier for a short time? — A. Yes. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. What do you pay these returned soldiers? — A. The average day. wage is 30 cents per hour. We use quite a number in the better class of occupation. They are not employed as truck hands. By lion. Mr. Marcil: Q. Do they work ten hours a day? — A. Yes. And the piece workers, those who have graduated into piece workers, make $4 to $5 a day. By the Chairman: Q. Do you shorten their hours or make things any easier for them than for your regular men ? — A. It is not possible to do that. Q. You do not discriminate? — A. No. You see we have 5,000 men in the two companies I represent, the Dominion Bridge Co. and the Dominion Copper Products Co. Q. At Lachine? — A. At Lachine. Q. What has been your experience with the men themselves? Have you found them a good class of men to handle and appreciative of what has been done for them ? — A. My opinion is that generally the returned soldier is a citizen like other citizens, only if he has been overseas he is a little better. Their military training gives them an advantage. We get a lot of floaters among our ordinary workmen. The percentage of floaters is no more among the returned soldiers than among ordinary citizens. Q. You regard military training as a benefit? — A. We try to run our factory on the same principles of fair dealing and even handed justice that they have in the Army, and I think a soldier has had a little experience of even handed justice in the Army. Q. Have you a welfare department ? — A. No, sir, not a definitely organized welfare department. Mr. J. N. Doyle, of our Accident Insurance Department devotes a great deal of time to the organization of First Aid and Safety First work. W^e provide special facilities for first aid to the injured and the officers of the Company, including myself, give a good deal of personal attention to general welfare work. Special welfare work among returned soldiers is in the hands of Sergeant Murray in a general way. But we recently found that the soldiers needed more attention so we arranged an organization and I am President of the civilian section of it. W^e use that largely as a welfare department for returned soldiers. We are equipping a boarding house there. Q. Have you found that the proportion of accidents has been greater among soldiers than among your regular workmen ? — A. We had to send two returned soldiers to the hospital with apoplectic fits. Another soldier lost two fingers. The first case might be due to army service, the second would not. Q. Have you found that the employment of soldiers entails extra liability, or insurance? Is the returned soldiers liable to cost the employer more? — A. Yes, sir. We broke our standing rule against the employment of one-eyed men by employing a soldier who had lost an eye. Under the law it is impossible to make an agreement with a one-eyed man to avoid the extra liability arising from a possible loss of the second oye. That militates to some extent against the employment of soldiers by smaller manufacturers, and is a more serious problem in their case. Q. It does militate against the employment of returned soldiers in small places? — A. Yes, unless the employers are broad minded enough to make exceptions. In that case I would strongly recommend that the provincial authorities look into the question of enabling a soldier with one eye to make a legal agreement with his employer so that in the event of his remaining eye being lost it would not involve paying for botli eyes. It is now the practice of the court to award compensation on the basis of its amounting to the loss of both eyes and no agreement can now be made to cover this. 28277— 36^ fMr. P. C. Armstrong.] 564 . SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Bennett : Q. That is the loss of the second eye is considered the total destruction of his sight?— A. That is it. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. Have you a Workmen's Compensation Act in Quebec? — A. Yes, and the com- mon law rights as well. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Do the returned soldiers do the same work as other workmen ? — A. Yes. I went through the shop this morning and had my foreman show me some of the returned soldiers. He pointed out one as the best inspector we have in the place, another as the best machinist, another as the worst man we have in the place, and so on. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. You can strike an average? — A. As I understand it, the returned soldier is a returned soldier until he is discharged; then he is a citizen, similar in every way to other citizens. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Has military service affected the soldiers' physical condition? — A. At the present time the returned soldiers have been discharged from the army for ijhysical reasons. Later on, the average ability of those not discharged for physical reasons would be very much higher. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Was the man with one eye given the same wage as the men with two eyes? — A. We cannot make any difference at all. This man was working at piece work. He was with us in the days when the Government paid large prices for shells, and he made good pay. Since then he has obtained a position in England. Q. Is the practice the same in Quebec as in Ontario that the liability of the employer is based upon the amount a man is receiving at the time of an accident? — A. To some extent. Q. Do these injured men receive as large pay as the others? — A. Yes. Q. In case of accidents they would get as large an indemnity as the unimpaired workmen? — A. I expect that he would get the same indemnity. By Mr. Bennett: Q. What would be the effect of the termination of the war upon the employment of the major number of your men? — A. I tried to answer a form from your department on that subject the other day. I do not know. Q. Will the 4,500 men in your employ who Jiave been engaged in work that was essentially war work be employed with you when the war orders cease? — A. That again depends on certain things. Before the war we were engaged in the manufacture of structural steel for bridges and so on, and since the war commenced we have equipped large shops for doing war work. In my opinion, this is a matter for our Board of Di- rectors who will probably find it necessary to continue certain mechanical lines of production, work similar in type to shells, in order to satisfactorily employ the buildings that have been erected and the machinery they are equipped with. Q. Was the largest number of the men that you have mentioned employed in the new shops or in the old bridge works? — A. In the new shops. Our old bridge shop has only about 15 per cent of our total staff at the present time. Q. I take it that none of these returned men have been employed as riveters, or in the fabrication of steel, using these words as being the general description oi your bridge works ? — A. Except where they were men who enlisted from our service. [Mr. P. C. Armstrong.! RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 565 Q. So far as the evidence you have given is concerned, the termination of the war will mean the release of those men from employment unless your company under- takes some work similar to the manufacturing processes it is now carrying on^ — A. Yes, sir. Q. In the absence of the fabrication of steel, you have not been able to use them as riveters? — A. Not many, sir, for several reasons. One is the limited amount that that work is of our total activities. Another reason is that the returned soldier objects to going into the bridge works but would rather work in the higher paid shops. Q. The number of your employees has vastly increased by reason of the war?— A. There were 800 men paid by the hour in the works in July, 1914. Since then, ours and the new associated companies that we have with vs employ 5,000 men. By Brigadier Gen. Mason: Q. On munitions? — A. Yes. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Can they be employed by you after the war is finished? — A. We hope to find occupations for them. By the Chairman: Q. The returned soldiers, however, will be the last to be discharged from your works ? — A. As far as I can arrange it, they will be the last to go, ^with the exception of skilled mechanics and those citizens of Lachine, men who have been employed with us for a long time and have their homes in Lachine. Q. The fit men who did not go will be let out first, before the returned soldier ? — A. The employment department have instructions from me to prepare lists based on seniority and efficiency, and the returned soldier is given a certain allowance for being a returned soldier on this list. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Before the war, you had approximately a thousand men employed in your normal fabrication of steel? — A. Yes. Q. And today you employ five thousand, making a difference of about four thousand who are employed on munitions, which is extra work due to the war? — A. Our bridge work has shrunk, while our munitions work has increased. Q. What I mean is this: unless you can procure some new work for these 4,500 men, when the war is over they will be out of work ? — A. Yes. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You must supplement your pre-war activities with new work, or else these men will have to go ? — A. Yes. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. IIow does that proportion you have given us compare with the proportion in other establishments which have gone into the manufacture of mimitions? — A. I think that is true of all of them. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Have you considered the question of the necessity of going into new lines of manufacture after the war? — A. We have employed certain salesmen, and they are looking into the question of other activities. Q. Are they employed outside this country? — A. We have one in England; he has also been in Russia. Q. Have you any in South America? — A. No, we have not done much in regard to the outside trade. We have obtained some work for India and Australia. The out- side trade has not been developed much lately on account of the difficulty in obtaining bottoms. [Mr. P. C. Armstrong:.! 566 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. You have spoken of new lines after the war and the market will naturally be the market held by some of the countries who are not doing business now? — A. Yes. Q. So far you have not been able to enter these mai-kets? — A. No, that is not in my jurisdiction and I really know nothing of it except what has been told me. By the Chairman: Q. Is there anything further you would like to say? — A. I would like to say one thing : that is that I think a great mistake is made in treating the soldier as an object of charity or too much sympathy. He is a citizen who has done his duty to the country and has come back and the sooner we make a civilian of him the better, and I strongly suggest that one of the most useful possible measures would be to look into the organ- ization of Returned Soldiers' Associations for the men to develop concerted action among themselves, to keep their military career fresh in the minds of the people and to help them to feel that they have backing behind them and give them a great deal of self-confidence in that way. We have a Returned Soldiers' Association out there, and the Association is divided into two parts, the civilian section and the military section. There is a group of business men in Lachine who give their time to organizing for the benefit of the returned soldiers, but our hope is that they will be able to turn that over to the soldiers at an early date, and it seems to me that that organization can do a great deal of work. When a soldier comes to me with a complaint against the Military Hospitals Board or the Patriotic, or any other organization, we take it up and we have never found any Department of the Government that will not right matters as quickly as possible. Pension cases are adjusted as quickly as possible and in every case we find sympathy for the returned soldier, but having a Returned Soldiers' Association we are in position to give returned soldiers advice about these matters. When a soldier complains about his pension not being received at the proper time, we give him money and eventually he gets his pension. We prevent him from getting angry. I have met only one who had a genuine grievance, who had been given a bad discharge. It may have been justified from the stories I heard from other people. Outside of that case 1 know of no soldiers that have had a real grievance. I think it is a bad thing for the soldiers to think they have a collective grievance. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Your idea is to maintain pride in their past and hope for the future? — A. Yes, and get them away from the idea that they are the objects of any sympathy. I urge the necessity of a National Returned Soldiers' Association with a civilian section con- sisting of business men, to assist the soldiers to be organized throughout the country and that this Association be given practically the handling of the returned soldier from the time he leaves the special institution, whether hospitals or convalescent homes or vocational training institutions, and that the Returned Soldiers' Association after that be expected to look after the returned soldiers' interests. That is the way to get them interested in their own future. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. You do not believe in a soldiers' union? — A. It will not become a soldiers' union if you put in sufficient business men to direct their energies in the right way. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. One of the objects of this Committee is to ascertain what we are going to do with the unemployed after the war. You have stated that at least four-fifths of the men that are employed now will not be employed after the war? — A. Yes, unless other outlets can be found for their activities besides munitions. Hon. Mr. Murphy: A large proportion of them are not soldiers. [Mr. P. C. Armstrong.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 567 By Mr. Middlelro: Q. About how many men are there employed in Canada working in munition factories and other work who will not be employed after the war? — A. That is beyond me. Q. I am told 400,000. — A. I should think that perhaps that figure is not out of the way. Q. And at least 250,000 men will come back from the war who will go into indus- trial occupations? — A. Perhaps. Q. I should think 250,000 would be a fair average of the number who would go into industrial occupations? — A. Yes. Q. There will be perhaps 550,000 men out of employment after the war. Have you anything to suggest to the Committee as to the method to find employment for those men? — A. I can only suggest, sir, that we will have to increase the output of goods from Canada. Q. In what way? — A. Take measures to increase the agriculture of the country, and an active campaign to endeavour to absorb the markets previously held by the enemy or neutral nations before the war. Q. What will we do with these men in the meantime? — A. I think we should do this right away. Q. Efforts should be made immediately? — A. I think so. Hon. Mr. Murphy: In other words imitate the Dominion Bridge Company? Witness discharged. Captain H. S. Dunstan Grey^ called, sworn 'and examined. By the Chairman: Q. You are a member of the Army Medical Corps? — A. Yes. Q. Are you in command at the Grey Nunnery ? — A. I was placed there in Decem- ber, 1915, as Medical Officer in charge of the Grey Nuns Convalescent Home. Q. Under whom?— A. Under Lt.-Col. Patch, A.D.M.S. Q. You are there now? — ^A. Yes, I am there now, but I do not consider I am medical oflicer in charge any longer. Q. Why? — A. The reason for that is that the Military Hospitals Commission's command have taken over the, charge of the convalescent home. I am simply medical officer in charge of the medical care of patients. Q. You are not responsible for physical conditions there? — A. I am indirectly responsible as medical officer, because I take it that my standing there is medical officer of the battalion or regiment, not medical officer in charge of the convalescent home. Q. Wlio is responsible for the discipline and for the physical condition of the place? — A. The officer commanding A Unit. Q. Major Hall?— A. Yes. Q. Have you anything to say? You were here most of the time yesterday when you heard a number of criticisms from returned men and others regarding conditions at the Grey Nuns Convalescent Homo. Have you anything to say on that point? — A. Well, if you will permit me I would like to state that up to August 1 last year or some time after that I would be responsible for the conditions complained of. When the Military Hospitals Commission's command took over they gradually absorbed the control of that convalescent home. On several occasions from the l>t August to the 11th January, 1917, I verbally protested to my superior medical officer with regard to the condition of affairs gradually developing. I was told that a complete change of the administration was daily expected, and no action was taken. Things went on until [Captain H. S. Dunstan Grey.] 568 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS I felt that I could not continue, in justice to myself, and in justice to the orders that I had received from my superior officer, Colonel Patch, when he put me in charge of the home. I wrote to the A.D.IM.S Military District No. 4 in which I protested. Q. What is the date of that letter? — A. January 11, 1917. I will read you some extracts from that letter and the answer I received from the A.D.M.S. My letter reads as follows: — Sir, — I have the honour to inform you that upon several occasions since August 1, 1916, when the Military Hospitals Commission Command took over the charge of Eeturned Overseas Men in the Home, I have verbally protested to Headquarters about the manner in which the Medical Officer in charge has been shorn of his authority over the men, and that as a result he could not be held responsible as a Medical Officer in charge of Convalescent Home usually is. Owing to the fact that a complete change of administration was daily expected, no action was taken, but to-day as mouths have passed and the change has not come, in justice to myself I have to go on record and draw your attention to the following facts: — The first paragraph has nothing to do with the matter before the Committee. The letter continues: — 2. The cleanliness of the Home is imder the O. C. " A " Unit. 3. The Men are no longer \mder my orders for anything but Medical treat- ment. They are crimed and paraded before the O. C. " A " Unit, by the Sergeant of the Guard without my knowledge, and it is only after they are sentenced that I become aware of the fact. This leads to a loss of all influence over, and knowledge of the Men by the Medical Officer in charge in the Home. 4. The Guards' reports are never seen by me, and so I am not aware of what is going on in the Home. 5. Men are detained in the Home, who have been discharged by me upon your order, to O. C. " A " Unit. 6. Tubercular patients from Ste. Agathe and Lake Edward are held in the Home, pending discharge or sentence, and are allowed to mix with the other Men at mess. 7. The presence of Men in the Home, who are not patients, mixing with patients leads to confusion. 8. The conditions at present existing have changed Convalescent Home into barracks. I am unable to handle nervous cases, and am obliged to obtain for them, through the O. C. "A", outpatient passes to allow them rest and quietude. By the above you may conclude. Sir, that I feel that I have to go on record as being placed in a position that renders me imable to accomplish the duties of a Medical Officer in charge Convalescent Home, and therefore it is impos- sible for me to be held responsible for the Men in the Grey Nuns Convalescent Home, as I am Medical Officer in charge in name only. The Witness : That was written to the A. D. M. S., Colonel Patch. Q. What was the reply? — A. The reply was on February 16 from the A. D. M. S. to me, and reads as follows : — Sm, — I have the honour to acknowledge your communication of the 11th ult., relative to the marginally noted subject. Your report with covering letter from the A. D. M. S., M. D. No. 4, and from the G. O. C, M. D. No. 4, have been forwarded to Secretary, Militia Council. 2. I am to say that the situation as set. forth by the A. D. M. S., M. D. No. 4, is fully appreciated and every effort is being made to reach a decision in [Captain H. S. Dunstan Grey.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RB-EDVCATION 569 this matter in order that the A. D. M. S. may know definitely the duties for which he is responsible. You will be further advised at the earliest date possible. This is signed by Colonel Patch. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. He communicates direct with the Militia Council? — A. Yes. Q. It does not go through the Director-General of Medical Service? — A. It gets to him in an indirect way according to regulations. It goes first to the Secretary of the Militia Council and to the A. G.'s office and from there to the Director-General of Medical Service. Q. It goes to the head of the Medical Service in an indirect way only? — A. I believe that is the line the correspondence is carried. Q. In the first place would you not think it should go to the head of the medical department and go from them to the Militia Council? — A. Well, being in the service, I have no criticisms to offer. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. What answer did you get to that? — A. I got no further reply. ■Q. Any action taken? — A. No action taken. Q. Any decision rendered yet so far as you know? — A. No. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. What was the date of the answer? — A. February 16, 1917. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Is there any more correspondence? — ^A. No, that is all the correspondence I think on that. By the Chairman: Q. You have charge of the medical treatment only of the patients? — A. As a result of this letter, you can realize that I have abstained from any active work in the direction of the home, and confined my activities to the strictly medical care of the patients that were there. Q. Who assisted you in your medical work? — A. I have at the present moment detailed to me by Colonel Patch seven medical ofiicers besides myself, and one medical officer who busies himself with urinalysis and bacteriology. Q. Are they all members of the Army ]\[edical Corps? — A, Yes, sir. Q. Like yourself? — A. Yes. Q. So that they are all under the supervision of Colonel Patch? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Through you? — A. Yes, sir, I am responsible. Q. Is there a Medical Officer at the Grey Nuns Hospital all the time, night and day? — A. No, sir. Q. There are times when there is no medical officer there at all? — A. Yes, but owing to the nature of the cases there it is not considered necessary that a medical officer should be in residence continually. Q. What would happen if there w;as a case taken suddenly ill? — A. The nursing sisters are all graduated nurses and members of the C.A.M.C., and one of these officers that I have enumerated to you is detailed by me as an orderly officer of the day. That officer's name is known to the nurses and he is called. Q. We have had complaints from some of the men that they rarely saw a doctor and that no medical examination or care was given them while they were in the Home. Is there any foundation in that? — A. It depends upon the angle from which you view it. The great majority of cases we handle there are convalescents. There will be some which will be examined upon admission, but it is not always possible to examine all [Captain H. S. Dunstan Grey.] 570 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS when 15, 16, 20 or even 40 cases are admitted, which oftcns liappens, on the one day. But they will be examined as quickly as possible. Q. If 40 to 50 cases a day are admitted, how long would it be before each patient would have at least one examination? — A. Possibly some of the least serious cases might be examined in five or six days after their admission. Q. Would it be possible for -ome of those 50 cases to be in the Hospital a week before being examined at all? — A. It would, sir, but that case would be one that did not require any immediate care, because I as medical officer in charge have in my possession what we call " The Pink Sheet ", which is a copy of the Medical Board which is held at the Medical Depot at Quebec. In that is stated the cause of the disability and a short description of the man's condition. If that man is one that did not require immediate attention we would devote our attention to the man who did require it. Q. When a group of 50 men come in, are they sorted out and the really urgent cases taken first? — A. Usually it works out in that way, because the cases are allotted to the different officers who are in charge of different conditions. Q. Do you not think the beneficial effect on convalescents of having the doctor frequently inquire as to their condition is of some value? — A. It is, sir. Q. Do you not think that if a man forms the impression that he is being neglected and that a doctor does not visit him for long periods it is likely to have a discouraging effect upon him? — A. It might, in some cases. There is always a man wishing to see the doctor at the home, and according to the regulations governing the men he can present himself on sick parade. Q. And can any man be seen then by the doctor if he wishes it? — A. He can be seen and if he is in actual ill health he will be visited as soon as the medical officer can get to his bedside. Q. Can he be seen by a doctor every day if he desires? — A. If he desires a sick parade he can have one in the morning and one in the afternoon. Q. He has got to declare himself ill? — A. He has got to ask for a sick parade. By Brigadier- General Mason: Q. How many medical officers are there to the hospital? — A. At the present time there are eight. Q. How many take part in the examination of convalescent patients? — A. These cases are distributed. One medical officer is a specialist on the ear, nose and throat. To him would be referred cases of ear, nose and throat trouble. I have another officer whose special line is neurology, that is cases of nervous condition, shell shock and so on. The folders dealing with such troubles would be placed on his desk. Then I have two men whom I look upon as caring for the general internal conditions. The cases pertaining to that branch would be placed before them. There is one man for surgery who deals with surgical cases and another man for orthopaedic cases. Some of the most important cases we have to deal with are the orthopaedic By the Chairman : Q. Where do you get your artificial limbs in Montreal? — A. The Military Hos- pitals Commission have an institution in Toronto for the purpose of supplying limbs- Q. Then the limbs supplied for men are made in Toronto ? — A. Yes, the men are forwarded to Toronto to have their artificial limbs fitted there. Q. Is that true in all cases? — A. In all cases at the present time. Q. A soldier has complained to me that his artificial limbs were fitted very badly? — A. Possibly. If that was a private by the name of Forbes that man's leg was furnished here. He was at the Grey Nuns Convalescent Home here and the artificial limb was furnished to him on the authority of the A.D.M.S. by a manufacturer named Martin. [Captain H. S. Dunstan Grey.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 571 The Chairman (to Sgt.-Major Marion) : You are acquainted with the circum- stances of the man whose artificial limb was badly applied. Can you tell me the man's name ? Sergeant-Major Marion: That man is in the hospital. I could not tell you his name. The Chairman: But you have the letter containing the details of the case? Let me have that letter, please. By the Chairman: Q. Here is the letter, Dr. Grey, and you can inform yourself as to the circum- stances. A. (After examining letter) This does not refer to an artificial limb, sir. This letter deals with the case of a man named Emile Colpin, if I remember, but I only speak from memory. This is a case where strengthening braces were required for his leg, and he complains that the metal portions of it are not nickel. That question had been taken up, and I personally thought it was extravagance to have the metal portion of what you might call the hinges of the brace made of nickel when it was to be used only temporarily. Q. What is the man's grievance? — A. It is stated here in French that for the sake of economy we did not ask the manufacturers to nickel the iron portions, but that they are galvanized. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Your position in the hospital is the same as it was when you wrote this letter in January, 1917? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You were then, and are now, Director of that hospital? — A. The hospital at the present time, as far as the running of the institution goes — that is, looking after the expenses of the place and the housekeeping — is under the Military Hospitals Com- mission Command. Q. Then the Military Hospitals Commission Command have the control and discipline of these men? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Does the Commission have the placing of the various men who were tubercular cases with the other patients? — A. No. I wrote a letter with regard to that, and allotted in the Home a certain ward for the care of these tuberculous patients that were in Montreal, possibly on the way to sanatoria, or who had been returned from the different sanatoria for discipline. Q. So that matter has been arranged? — A. That has been arranged. Q. Then as to the complaints of these men. How many have you got altogether in the Grey Nuns Hospital? — A. My " Morning State of Sick " for 'to-day is 258 cases. Q. Was it not possible under ordinary discipline to have every man paraded every morning to be examined or to make his complaint? — A. Any man who has any complaint can ask for a parade. Q. Any man who wants to be examined can ask for a parade, you say, in the morn- ing? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Would it not be better with a lot of sick men in a military hospital to have them paraded every morning? — A. You ask me whether it would be a proper thing to do? Q. Yes. — A. I do not think so. Q. Would it not be a very easy way out of the difiiculty? — A. I do not think it is necessary. Q. Why not? — A. Because there is such a thing with convalescents of a neurotic type of apparently putting too much stress upon their condition. Q. Yes, but even if you only provided a daily medical examination for only one of the men, would you not be better off in the last case than in the first? — A. Possibly. Q. Now, I ask you, imder the circumstances, would not a morning parade of the [Captain H. S. Dunstan Grey.] 572 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS sick men in this institution be a good thing? — A, Yes, but it would be difficult to arrange, because these men are at their vocational training or physical training, and it would have to be done very early in the morning. Q. Could not the men be taken in consecutive relays, so that every man in the hospital might be paraded before you every day? — A. I have thought of such a thing, but did not provide for it for the simple reason that the medical officers are not giving their full time to the work of the hospital. Q. Do you not think they ought to give their whole time? — A. It is impossible under the present conditions. Q. All these men, including yourself, are under salary, are they not ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. First of all, you are? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And is your time supposed to be devoted to the men who are in the hospital? — A. Not in its entirety. Q. How much time are you supposed to give to this institution? — A. I am sup- posed to give three hours a day. Q. How much time are the rest of these medical men supposed to give?— A. Three hours a day. Q. Each medical man? — A. Each medical man, with the exception of one who is just going on duty, and is prepared to give his whole time. Q. Each one of your medical men at that institution is supposed now to be on active service? — A. No, sir. Q. You are not ? — A. No, sir, I am on active militia service. Q. What does that mean?— A. I am simply drawing the pay of my rank. Q, And carrying on your private practice besides? — A. I am. Q. So that you just give so much time per day to these men in the hospital? — A. Yes. Q, Can it not be easily arranged with a staff of eight medical attendants to parade 300 men each day I — A. Surely. Q. Then, do you not think if such an arrangement were put into effect in the Grey Nuns Hospital it would do away wit\^ these complaints? — A. It would, to an extent. Q. Would it do away with them wholly? — A. I do not believe, sir, that there is any method of handling men that would not leave an opening for complaint. Q. I quite admit that. These men are all human, only some are a little more human than others. But such an arrangement would do away with the complaint that has been made. — A. It would, sir. Q. No man could then say he had not seen a doctor for weeks? He could make no such statement as that if there were a parade ordered every day ?— A. I take excep- tion to any man stating that he has not seen a doctor for weeks. Q. I will say two days if that will help the argument, — but it would do away with that? — A. It would. Q. Do you not think that ought to be put into force? — A. It is practicable. Q. And it would do away with one of the causes of complaint. — A. It would. Q. I take it, of course, that you are an Army Medical Corps man? — A. I am. Q. And you believe that had th,e Army Medical Corps gone on and chartered this Hospital the patients would be in a better condition than they are today ? — A, I would not say that. Q. You think that with an expansion of the Army Medical Corps it would be pos- sible to handle these hospitals? — A. Yes, and possibly with less friction. Q. Then your whole complaint is that either one of these bodies might handle it, provided there were no conflict of jurisdiction? — A. Provided the jurisdiction of each is clearly defined. Q. Then there might be a possible line of demarkation drawn defining the author- ity of each of these bodies ? — A. Yes, just as there is co-ordination in an Army Corps. [Captain H. S. Dunstan Grey.] I RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 573 •whicli is composed of various services, each knowing their respective work, the line of demarkation being clearly drawn and all working together unitedly towards a common end. Now we do not know where we are at. Q. That condition has existed for some considerable time previous to January, 1916, and it still exists'^— A. It began on August 1, 1015. Q. And you would say that such a condition of affairs militates strongly against the proper care and well-being of these soldiers? — A. I would not go as far as that; I would simply say that it renders their proper care more difficult. I do not believe that the medical care of the men has materially suffered by the conditions existing at pre- sent, but it is a fact that the giving of this care to the men has been made very difficult. Q. But still they have got that care right along? — A. They have got the care of the medical Corps. Q. But the disciplinary care, has that been as good as it ought to be? — A. The discipline has been good. Q. Now, just one more question: We have heard some evidence here regarding the men in their recreation room, it has been stated that there is not light enough, and not sufficient air, do you consider the Grey Nun's Hospital a proper place for these men ?— A.- 1 do, sir, for convalescents. Q. You think it is what it ought to be? — A. I think it is well adapted to the use to which it is put at the present moment, that is a Convalescent Home. Q. Well, it is not wholly occupied by convalescents, there are active cases there. A. There are just the active cases which develo]) amongst a body, we would say, of 250 men, who at present are convalescent. By the Chairman: Q. How many active cases have you there among that number ? — A. I would judge speaking from memory, that in Ward " C " we have probably six out of 258 patients. I have more men confined there, some of them I have confined in Ward " C ". I have put them to bed, as bed-patients, because they have been drunk. Q. And~for these cases do you consider that the Grey Nun's hospital is a proper place? — A. I do, sir, because they are such cases as acute bronchitis, and laryngitis, neuritis, and some cases of rheumatism. Q. I take it, from your evidence, you do not think it is a proper place for men who are wrecks from nervous troubles? — A. Not under present conditions. Q. What militates against its use for that purpose? — A. At present it is the Head- quarters of "A" Unit. Q. What is the nature of that Unit? — A. That is the administrators' portion of that unit, it is made up, as you probably know, of the men convalescent returned from overseas, and camp men, undergoing prolonged convalescence. These men are under the jurisdiction of the officer commanding this unit. There are the Belmont Park and the McTavish St. Homes, the Grey Nuns, and the Savard Park Hospital at Quebec, the Sanatoria at Lake Edward and Ste. Agathe all under the control of this unit and that naturally entails a considerable amount of going and coming and considerable work in connection with the changing of these men and in correspondence. Q. Now, in what way does that inconvenience the man who is suffering from nervous trouble? — A. The noise and the confusion caused by the constant coming and going, the continual movement that is going on in the place all the time. Sometimes again a unit has no clink, and the men who misbehave in that home, are sent up there for confinement ; for instance, if a man gets drunk in the Khaki Home or in any of the other homes in the city, a guard is sent up to take charge of him and he is brought down there. Q. Would you recommend that the men suffering from shell shock and nervous troubles should be removed from the Grey Nun's Hospital? — A. I may say that yes- terday the Headquarters of "A" unit were moved out of the Grey Nun's Hospital and transferred to Drummond Street. [Captain H. S. Dunstan Grey.] 574 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. So that everything is alright now? — A. Not completely, it is still used for disciplinary purposes. To my mind the Headquarters of "A" Unit should be in a separate building, away from the Convalescent Home. There it would be on the same footing as that possessed by the Casualties which are now put into a Casualty Batta- lion. As it has now been called the Military Hospitals Commission Command, the Head- quarters of which is in Ottawa, there would be headquarters for this district in this province, and "A" unit should be in a distinct building and the Officer Commanding the Unit should take such men as I would discharge on instructions from Ottawa. . I would discliarge them to the Officer Commanding "A" Unit. Q. What does the Committee understand, in this last complaint of yours? — A. I am not complaining. Q. This last criticism then.— A. I am not criticizing. The Chairman : This statement The Witness: It is a statement of facts I am giving. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Put it any way you like; if the "A" unit business were entirely gotten rid of you are content with the Grey Nun's Hospital? — A. Yes, I am, as a building for the purpose for which it is used. Q. Do you not think that with 300 convalescents in that hospital a case of emergency may occur at nearly any time? — A. Yes, they might crop up anywhere. Q. And with eight men on the staff of the hospital, would it be out of the way that one man at least should be there each night in the event of an emergency occurring? — A. Not necessarily from a medical point of view, from the nature of the cases there. The home is situated in the centre of the city, and one of the eight members of the staff can always be reached by 'phone, and will soon be there. The nurses who are on duty can handle an emergency for half an hour until the medical man can reach the hospital, and the patients would not be without attendance and care in the meantime. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. I think the basement of the Grey Nun's hospital is used for recreation purposes by the men, and it has been stated that the dimensions of that room are 92 by 42 by 15, and that 200 men were kept there almost all day. That would give 98 cubic feet per man ? — A. The 200 men said to be there would dwindle down considerably during the day, considering that there are probably 35 patients from outside who would report there for treatment. Q. The statement, as I remember it, was that they had to be there for a con- siderable time? — A. It has been overcrowded for the last two or three weeks, but prior to that there was plenty of room. Mr. Sexton asked me if it would interfere with the ventilation of that room if a portion were divided off for vocational training. I told him that it would be quite sufficient with the number there at that time, but that if the number of men were increased we would have to take that portion back again. Again the statement is made that the recreation room is in the basement. I would like the word "basement" defined. Is a basement considered to be a room underground or below the ground? Q. It was stated afterwards that it was not below the ground. There was another statement made to the effect that when these men got permission to go out it was after 5 o'clock in the evening? — A. Yes. Q. And that it was dark at that time in the winter, and they had nowhere to go except to the public houses and places of that kind and the consequence was that it was a great temptation to them and that if they constantly came back drunk it was not to be wondered at. Why should they not be allowed out in the early part of the day? — A. These instructions with regard to leave were issued by the O.C. of the [Captain H. S. Dunstan Grey.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 575 Military Hospitals Commission Command, and were forwarded to the different units. The men are not allowed out till 5 o'clock, but there is a walking-out parade from 10.30 to J1.30 in the morning, and in the afternoon there is another walking-out parade of an hour's duration. Q. After 5 o'clock? — A. Before 5 o'clock. By the Chairman: Q. Are these hours peculiar to Montreal, or is it a general order relating to all convalescent hospitals in Canada? — A. I understand that it is a general order by the O.C. of the Military Hospitals Commission Command at Ottawa, and forwarded to the various units. Q. Issued by Colonel Sharpies? — A. Yes, By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. You say there is a walking-out parade in the morning and another in the afternoon; do you mean they all have to go out together? — A. Yes. In some cases they are taking physical training, possibly some men who are suffering from cardiac troubles are not required to participate in the walking-out parade. Those men who are taking the technical training can take it if they wish. Q. That is under Major Hall, it is not in your Department at all^ — A. Yes, my duty simply consists in stating whether a man is fit for training or work. Q. The five o'clock leave is personal, they can go out where they like? — A. Yes, and the hour has been extended to 10.30 at night. Q. And that is done by an order coming through the Military Hospitals Com- mission Command and Major Hall? — A. Yes. Q. And you have nothing to do with that? — A. I have nothing to do with the regulation of those hours. I may say that any time that I have found it wise to have a man get the morning air or the afternoon air I have put through a request to the O.C. of the unit and the leave has been granted that the man might be out from, say, ten to twelve o'clock in the morning and two to four in the afternoon. The Chairman: Well, Capt. Grey, we will let you retire now and thank you for your evidence. Witness discharged. Mrs. Jas. Williamson Ross^ called and examined. By the Chairman : Q. You are the representative in Montreal, if I understand rightly, Mrs. Ross, of the Pensions Board ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And your duties are to visit all the families? — A. Yes, we have to pay one official visit a year. Sir Herbert, but we really do the investigating. Q. You do the investigating for the Pensions Board? — A. For the Pensions Board. We listen to all the grievances of the soldiers. Q. Do you have to look after both the men who are wounded and the widows of those who have been killed? — A. Yes. Q. So you listen to all grievances of the soldiers and the widows? — A. Yes, and forward them to Ottawa. Q. In the eases where Ottawa is preparing material on which they decide on the pension, all that material is investigated by you here? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you find very much complaint on the part of the returned soldiers and their widows as to their pension treatment? — A. Well, we have not started our systematic visiting yet. We have not got our full records, so that everybody we see really has a complaint, every man who comes in has one. [Mrs. James Williamson Ross.] 576 SPECIAL COMMITTEE—C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Only those that have complaints come to see you now? — A. If they are satisfied, they do not encourage us by letting us know that they are. Q. You are acquainted with all the rules and regulations with respect to pensions, and can explain these'to them? — A. Yes. Q. Can you generally satisfy them? — A. Generally, yes. Q. Have you instances where you could not satisfy them? — A. Most of the men who receive only gratuities are very much dissatisfied, those having under the 20 per cent disability. Every one of those that I have seen so far has been dissatisfied. Q. Those damaged up to 19 per cent, and who, instead of getting a monthly allowance, are given a sum of $50 or $100 and told that that ends it, you find them dissatisfied? — A. Every one of them. For instance, a man with total detifness in one year gets only a gratuity, and he feels that he should receive a regular monthly pension. I had one such man who refused to accept his gratuity. If he accepted it he thought it would mean that he was satisfied, and he asked me to return it to Ottawa. He was not a bit antagonistic, but thought he had been unjustly dealt with. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Was he well off? — A. No, he was earning $90 a month before going overseas, and he has just now taken a position as messenger with a bank at $50 and is not satis- fied yet that he is able to hold it. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Have you met many disabled men less than 20 per cent who by reason of that disability are not able to carry on their previous occupation? — A. They feel they are much more disabled than they are ^eensioned for. Q. Do they claim they are not able to carry on their previous occupation? — ^A. They all claim they cannot do what they did before. Under 20 per cent they are supposed to be paid off. This man yesterday returned the cheque. He felt that if they gave him even the smallest amount monthly he would be satisfied, but he wanted something. The Chairman: Of course, as Mrs. Eoss has said, on account of not being organized so that she could have visited those in receipt of pensions as she expects to do each year, she gets only those who are dissatisfied. By the Chairman: Q. Can you give us any idea as to the number of complaints you have handled of those dissatisfied with the amount of pension awarded? — A. I have kept track. Sir Herbert, I write up perhaps — I should say I have not seen more than 15 or 20 alto- gether. Q. Fifteen or twenty have come to you ? — ^A. Yes. Q. As a rule are the widows satisfied? — A. Any widows I have visited — I have not done the regular visiting yet — but I started out and saw ten families in one week who had been receiving pension for some time to familiarize myself with conditions. Every home I went into they were well satisfied. Their homes were all clean and they seemed to be getting along nicely. Q. Do the married men who are disabled get an allowance now for their children^ — A. If they are disabled under the first three classes, anything above a GO per cent disability, they get a pension for themselves and an allowance for each child. Q. Are the pensions on account of the children coming regularly now ? — A. Some- times they do not go through with the first pension cheque, and the man makes a complaint, and he is asked for the certificate of his children. They are forwarded to Ottawa and there is an adjustment made. Q. Ottawa is now paying both the pension for disabled men and the pension for the children as well? — A. In every case. [Mrs. James Williamson Ross.] RECEPTIOy, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 577 Q. So that a man disabled to the extent of 60 i)er cent with three children would get 60 per cent of ^0, which would be $24 ?— A. $24 and $18 for the children. Q. $42 a month for himself and his three children? — A. Yes. Q. Do you think that is the best way to have the children in Classes No. 1, 2 and 3 cases paid $6, or would it be better to grade it down to $6, $5 and $4 respectively?— A. I think a man getting $24 should get the full $6 for each child ; I do not think it should be reduced. Q. Do you think the children of Class 4 or 5 cases should get anything? There is a great drop, for example, in a Class 3 case with three children and a man in Class 4 with three children. Would you make it any less? — A. There is too big a drop. Q, Your main criticism is about the gratuities? — A. In nearly every case. By Mr. Middlebro: Q. You have mentioned one case of deafness. Can you mention what the other disabilities were where they were classified under 20 per cent? — A. I think an index finger is under 20 per cent, and the other troubles are not specified. It is some condition of bronchitis or rheumatism. Q. Which they claim is pennauent? — A. Yes. Another great trouble is with men who have been accepted for the service and who come home with a disability not due to the service. They are much dissatisfied because they feel they have a disability. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. They never should have enlisted in reality? — A. Yes, and it is hard to explain that to them. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Were they well when they enlisted? — A. They all claim they were. Q. And were so certified by the medical officer? — A. Apparently, or they would never have been accepted. Q. Do you think a man who has lost his index finger should get a small pension rather than a gratuity? — A. I think so. By the Chairman: Q. You do not like the idea of a gratuity. If a man falls below full efficiency, he should get a varying pension? — A. Yes. They could use the gratuity in the case of a widowed mother who is not entitled to a regular pension for instance where there is another son overseas. When the soldiers pay stops I think she could be given a gratuity in recognition of her son's service. The Chairmax: Are there any further questions? Mrs. Ross is the local officer on behalf of the Pensions Board. Her office is in the Drummond building and all matters regarding pensions are referred to her, and she visits all the families in receipt of pensions. The Witness.: May I leave lists of the district officers, with the scale of pen- sions, in ready reference form for the members of the committee? The Chairman : We will be glad to have them. Witness discharged. Napoleon Marion comparait et est assermente. Interroge par I'hon. Charles Marcil: Q. Quel est votre grade militaire ? — R. Sergent-major — warrant officer. Q. Vous faites partie du personnel de I'Hotel-Dieu ? — R. Des Soeurs Crises. Q. Etes-vous membre du corps medical? — R. Non, monsieur, je suis convalescent. Q. On m'informe que vous avez certaines plaintes a faire, certains rapports a 28277—37 [Sergeant-Ma jor X. Marion.] 578 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.t.F.—RErURXED SOLDIERS produire? — R. D'abord, la premiere plainte que j'ai a faire m'a ete donnee a propos des membres artificiels. On pretend — d'abord, moi-meme, la ou j'ai ete pour avoir quelque chose, le monsieur — que je ne puis mentionner dans le moment — m'a dit qu'il avait regu une lottre d'Ottawa lui demandant de faire le travail, soit des supports en fer ou autre chose, autant que possible au plus bas prix. Ensuite, on m'a fait rapport a ce sujet la, par ecrit, et j'ai cru bon de presenter cette plainte la, parce que quand un homme part avec deux bons pieds et deux bonnes jambes, je ne crois pas que le gou- vernement devrait essayer a mettre au plus bas prix les articles qui sent alloues aux soldats pour remplacer les membres qu'ils ont perdus. Q. Avez-vous porte plainte a quelqu'un a ce sujet la, ou avez-vous fait rapport a quelque officier superieur? — R. C'est arrive vendredi dernier, et la lettre m'est arrivee hier. Q. Avez-vous refere la question a quelque officier superieur ? — R. Pas encore. Q. Avez-vous I'intention de le faire? — R. Oui. Q. Quel est cet officier? — R. Le capitaine Gray, celui qui est en charge des conva- lescents. Q. Avez-vous autre chose a nous raconter sur ce qui s'est passe a I'Hotel-Dieu, de la part des soldats ? — R. A propos de I'hopital, je crois qu'il est assez grand, et il y a assez de commodites pour les hommes, pour le nombre qu'il y a la; seulement, il fau- drait un peu plus de ventilation. Q. Maintenant, pour les Canadiens-franQais, il devrait y avoir parmi les membres du staff quelqu'un qui parle le frangais. Par I'hon. M. Murphy : Q. Y a-t-il des medecins Canadiens-f rangais ? — R. II y en a deux. Par I'hon. M. Marcil: Q. Quels sont les medecins canadiens-frangais qu'il y a la? — R. Le capitaine Chabot et le docteur Ostiguy. Q. Le capitaine Gray parle bien le f rangais? — R. Oui. Q. Les autres membres du personnel ne parlent pas le frangais? — R. Non. lis sont sous le commandement du major Hall. Par I'hon. M. Murphy : Q. Est-ce que la plupart des soldats ne parlent pas I'anglais? — R. Les canadiens- frangais ? Q. Oui. — R. II y en a quelques-uns qui parlent I'anglais, mais la majorite ne le parlent pas. II y a au dela de soixante-deux canadiens, et je pense qu'il doit y en avoir dix ou douze qui parlent I'anglais. Q. Les cinquante-deux autres ne peuvent pas se faire comprendre? — R. Du tout. Q. lis sont obliges d' avoir recours a des interpretes ?^ — R, A des sous-officiers. Plus souvent qu'autrement c'est moi. Cette plainte la se rapporte specialement avix nurses. Sur les nurses qu'il y a la il n'y en a seulement qu'une qui parle le frangais. Q. Ce sont des gardes-malades ? — R. Oui. Q. Les religieuses n'ont rien a faire avec cela? — R. Xon; les religieuses voient a la nourriture, aux repas. Q. Maintenant, parmi les gardes-malades il n'y en a que deux qui parlent le fran- gais? — R. Seulement qu'une qui parle frangais. Q. Et quand elle n'y est pas, celle-la ? — R. II n'y a plus personne. Q. Avez-vous porte plainte a propos de cela? — R. Pas encore, parce qu'on ne m'a presente les plaintes que le douze mars. Q. Avez-vous I'intention de referer ces plaintes la? — R. Oui. Q. Vous avez eu une assemblee des soldats? — R. Le 12 mars, oui. C'est la meme chose, la meme organisation que la " Returned Soldiers Society ", seulement c'est le local frangais. Ce soir meme on doit avoir une autre assemblee pour jeter les bases de I'association. [Seargeant-Major N. Marion.] REOEi'TIOX, TREATMK:ST AXU re-education 579 Q. Avez-vous choisi un nom pour votre association? — R. Pour le moment c'est " L'Association Canadienne-frangaise Retour du Front ". Mais je dois dire que I'asso- ciation comprend non seulement ceux qui sont de retour du front, mais ceux qui sont de retour d'outre-mer. Q. Maintenant, a propos des autres plaintes que vous avez a faire? — R. Nous avons a nous plaindre non seulement pour ce qui se passe ici, a I'hopital, mais aussi quand Ics soldats arrivent a Halifax, ils ne rencontrent la pcrsonne qui parle le fran- gais. lis sont envoyes a Quebec " Canadian Discharged People ", ou il n'y a, je pense, qu'un M. Page qui parle le frangais. Et encore, je I'apprends aujourd'hui qu'il y a quelqu'un qui parle frangais, hier on me disait qu'il n'y avait pcrsonne qui parlait frangais. Q. II n'y a personne attache au personnel de Halifax qui parle le frangais? — R. Non. Q. A Saint-Jean non plus? — R. Non. Par sir Herbert Ames: Q. II y a I'un des medecins du bureau a Quebec qui parle frangais? — R. Je crois qu'il y en a un. Quand je sui's passe la pas un seul ne m'a parle frangais. Q. Generalement il y en a un? — R. Je ne pourrais pas I'affirmer. Je sais, dans tons les cas, que partout ou Ton va c'est une grosse difficulte pour les soldats qui ne parlent pas I'anglais de se faire comprendre et de presenter leurs cas de maniere a etrp compris, leurs cas de maladies ou autre chose. Q. C'est-a-dire d'expliquer leurs symptomes ? — R. Justement. Par I'hon. M. Murphy : Q. A I'hopital des Soeurs Grises combien y a-t-il de soldats canadiens-frangais ? — R. Soixante-deux. Q. A present ? — R. Oui. Q. Qui ne parlent pas I'anglais? — R. Je pourrais dire qu'il y en a quarante qui ne parlent pas I'anglais. Maintenant, il y a autre chose : Un soldat passe a I'examen medical, et il est envoye a I'hopital, soit I'hopital General, ou I'hopital Victoria ; et la il n'y a personne qui parle le frangais. Par I'hon. M. Marcil: Q. Est-ce qu'on lui donne le choix de I'hopital ou si on I'envoie a un hopital sans le consulter ? — R. On ne lui donne pas le choix, je ne crois pas. Q. Dans ces deux institutions il est tres difficile d'avoir du frangais? — R. Tres difficile. Q. Ni des medecins, ni des gardes-maladcs ? — R. La meme chose. Je citerai le cas d'un nomme Biron. Ce gargon la ne parle pas un mot d'anglais, et il n'a pas d'ins- truction, pas meme en frangais. II a ete envoye ii I'hopital General, il y a ete envoye de force, et ce gargon la pretend qu'il n'a eu aucune satisfaction dans ses plaintes. "D'une maniere ou d'une autre, dit-il, jc n'ai pas pu avoir les soins que j'ai demandes." Q. Est-ce que des soldats out demande d'etre envoyes a I'hopital Notre-Dame ou a I'Hotel-Dieu ? — R. Pas encore. II faut choisir I'hopital Victoria ou I'hopital General. Q. Les soldats prefereraient-ils aller a I'hopital Notre-Dame ou a I'Hotel-Dieu ? — R. Ce serait une bonne chose. Q. Parce qu'ils pourraient se faire comprendre plus facilement? — R. lis pour- raient se faire comprendre. Q. Si vous avez autre chose a declarer, d'autres plaintes a faire, nous sommes prets a vous entendre — R. A propos de la langue frangaise, je n'ai pas autre chose. Q. Est-ce que vous avez de la misere pour vos pensions? — R. J'ai fait paraitre quelque chose dans les jouniaux, il y a deux jours, et j'ai regu trois ou quatre plaintes; mais je prefere les presenter a Mile Ross avant de faire des plaintes. Quant aux pen- 28277— 37i [Sergeant-Ma jor N. Marion.] 580 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIER0 men, are there not, in that corps? Who are officers, for discipline and everything else? — A. The commanding officer. Q. What kind of officer? What would you call him, a combatant officer, or an officer of the Canadian Army Medical Corps? — A. The Army Medical Corps, sir. Q. Certainly. Then, if you made the statement that no medical officer exercised the command the statement would not be correct, would it? — A. But, sir, I do not say that, I did not make that statement. Q. Supposing you did, if you had made it, it would not be correct would it? — A. I would ask the Chairman to request the reporter to read the notes. If I made the statement, I do not recollect doing so. Q. Then you would not make that statement now, that no medical officer exercised any command? — A. No, sir, I would not. Q. That was the impression I think you gave to the Committee. You said that in your opinion you thought it was much better to have a combatant officer in command at the hospitals, and you gave the reason that having been at the front you knew what was the practice on the other side. Having been there, will you tell me what is the practice in the British hospitals, and at the front with regard to that? — A. I could not say. Q. You do not know? — A. No. Q. Very well, we will leave it at that then. I may say that I have already asked that question of Colonel MacKenzie Forbes, who has been at the front. I asked him with regard to the command at the hospitals and I mentioned specially the No. 1 Canadian Hospital, and he said it was entirely controlled and commanded by the medical officers in each hospital. That was a fact over there, but you think here that it is absolutely necessary that a combatant officer should be in command of the hospital? — A. Conditions were such, sir, or at least I will put it this way: Conditions were evidently such that it warranted combatant officers being put in command of the hospitals, so far as enforcing discipline is concerned [Major G. E. Hall.] 598 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.-RETURXfJD SOLDIERS Q. I did not quite catch that, would you mind repeating it? — A. In this country conditions were evidently such or had reached such a stage that it warranted com- batant officers being put in command of these convalescent homes and sanatoria. By the Chairman: Q. That is the Canadian practice? — A. Yes, so far as the organization of the Military Hospitals Commission Command is concerned. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Do the Canadian Army Medical Corps officers have command of the ordinary hospitals in Canada, the military hospitals that are not under the Military Hospitals Commission, or is a combatant officer put in charge of them ? — A. Matters of discipline, it is for a combatant officer to deal with them. The Chairman : To make a fair comparison you should take convalescent hospi- tals in both cases. A hospital filled with active treatment cases, that is to say bed cases, is hardly to be compared with a hospital full of convalescent patients who are out on the street haK of the time. Hon. Mr. Daniel: As far as this witness is concerned, I do not think it makes any difference. It is the principle, not the kind of patient confined in a hospital. By Eon. Mr. Daniel: Q. It is the question of administration, you are speaking of, is it not? — A. Of course, sir, there is a vast difference between a hospital and a convalescent home. A hospital, generally speaking, contains bed eases, whereas a convalescent home, gener- ally speaking, contains convalescents able to go out. Q. You spoke, I think, of the Khaki League hospital here whose medical officer is obliged to send to you for assistance to take a man and put him under arrest? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And you think that is because the medical officer had no command; in other words he has no force at his disposal. Supposing you had no force at your disposal, that you had no non-commissioned officers or corporal of the guard and five men, would you have any more actual force than the medical officer? — A. But I have in each one of the homes under my command. Q. Just so, that is what I am getting at? — A. Non-commissioned officers and men. Q. Because you are put in command, and you have these men placed at your disposal? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, supposing the hospital guard is told to report to the medical officer in charge of the hospital for his instructions, would he not have just as much power as you? — A. No, sir. Q. Why not ? — A. Because, as I said before Q. Answer that? Why would he not? — A. Because he is not a combatant officer. Q. But the g-uard is ordered to report to him for duty and he gives his instructions. What is the difference? — A. The sergeant of the guard and the N.C.O.'s and men com- posing that guard are on my staff and directly under me for discipline. They are to carry out my orders first and foremost. Q. I am not finding fault with that at all. But supposing you are ordered to send a file of men to a certain hospital to report there for guard duty, and to report to the medical officer in charge, you have done your duty in carrying out your orders in sending that guard where it was wanted; and the guard reports to the medical officer for duty and gets his orders? — A. I give the orders, sir, but out of respect for the medical officer, and he naturally being the medical officer in charge of the home, I would give the senior N.C.O. instructions to report to the medical officer. Q. You think that could not be done. Do you know whether it is done in other armies? — A. It may be, sir, I am not prepared to say it is not. Q. And with regard to the military hospitals in England, do you know the practice there? — A. No, sir. [Major G. E. Hall.] (i li EC EFT I OS, THE ATM EXT ASD RE-EDUCATIOX 599 By the Chairman: Q. There are one or two things I intended to speak of in my examination. There was a reference made to the fire escapes in the Grey Nunnery, first that they are insuf- ficient and subsequently that they were locked up. Would you consider that building safe in case of fire? Hon. Mr. Murphy: First of all, is that the fact? By the Chairman: Q. Are the exits to the fire escapes locked? — A. No, sir, they are out of bounds for the men. Q. If a fire should take place there at night are the fire escapes properly available ? —A. Yes. Q. Are there fire escapes to all floors, do they extend up to the second and third storeys? — A. There is one fire escape, sir, and there is another being installed. Q. Do you consider that you have ample fire escape accommodation, or will have when this other one is installed? — A. That is a little difficult question, sir, to ask me. Q. Well, you must visit and inspect that building from time to time? — A. That is quite true, sir, but for what number of men ? Q. For 200 men.— A. Yes, for 200. Q. You have fire escapes enough for 200 men? — A. Yes, with the one that is being installed now. Q. How are your men distributed in the matter of sleeping? How many sleep on the first floor, how many on the second, third and fourth floors? — A. The smallest number on the top floor. Q. Have you any idea how many there would be on the top floor? — A. I cannot say offliand tonight. Q. I suppose fifty on each floor anyway? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you make any attempt to have the men who are lame or not quite so efficient as others placed on the lower floor? — A. That is a matter for the medical officer, sir. Q. I thought that the fire escapes belonged to your jurisdiction? — A. That is quite true. But if a man is lame I do not assign him to a bed on the first or the fourth floor, that is done by the medical officer and his staff. Q. The question of the assignment of the bed where the patient shall sleep? — A. Absolutely, sir. Q. You were speaking a little while ago of the liquor evil. I know that you are very anxious to protect your men as far as possible from the evil effects of liquor. What are the regulations here with reference to the selling of liquor to soldiers? — A. All licensed hotels and bars are placed out of bounds for troops. Q. By whom? — A. By orders of the General Officer Commanding the District. Q. That is a prohibition on the soldier? — A. Yes, sir. Q. It does not affect the saloon keeper at all? — A. No, sir. That is for certain hours, with tlie exception of a couple of hours in the morning, and I think it is from six to eight at night, I am not sure. Q. Are there any hours of the day when your men can get out, when it is per- fectly legal for them to get drink if they want to? — A. Yes, sir, at night. Q. They can go to a bar and drink if they want to at night without infringing any law?^A. Yes, sir. Q. Is there any civic or provincial law that prohibits the sale of liquor to soldiers within certain hours ? — A. Not that I am aware of, sir. If so, I do not consider it was necessary to issue that district order placing these licensed hotels and saloons out of bounds except during these limited hours. Q. What can be done to protect your men from being ruined by the excessive use of liquor? What is being done to protect them, what more can be done to protect [Major G. E. Hall.] 600 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS them? Are they perfectly free, if they want to, to ruin themselves while in a conval- escent condition ? — A. It is the bottled stuff, sir, that they buy, which is prepared right here in the city. Q. Is it drugged ? — A. An awful concoction, sir. Q. Unfit to drink ? — A. I have had in my own office on one occasion seven different grades, and without mentioning any names, a gentleman who was in a position to know tested them and there was only one which he pronounced fit for a man to drink. Q. What was the deleterious ingredient? — A. I cannot say as to that. Q. Wood alcohol, or that sort of stuff ? — A. Oh, yes. The trouble is they have these glass corks with an ordinary lead seal which can be lifted up, the cork extracted, the bottle refilled and the lead cover replaced, and if the label is not scratched or mutilated in any way, the bottle is ready for reselling. It is not like a seal that has to be broken in order to extract the cork. Q. Do you know whether there is any legislation to render legal the selling of mixed liquors of that kind? — A. I understand it is illegal, sir. Hon. Mr. Daniel : Under the Adulteration of Foods Act. The Witness: I would like to go on record if I may at this opportunity: So far as the blind pigs in Ste. Agathe are concerned, they are playing havoc with those tubercular men up there. They are practically ignoring openly the law in Ste. Agathe. It is a prohibition town as you are no doubt aware. But they are selling it, openly selling it, and they will continue to sell it. Q. That is, the law is absolutely defied up there? — A. Yes, sir. I have a written statement from Capt. Byers the medical officer in charge of the sanitarium at Ste. Agathe to that effect. Q. A good deal has been said about the pay-books being taken away from the men. Do you know whether or not the large majority of returned soldiers have their pay book? — A. The majority, yes. Q. It is the exception and not the rule that a man does not get his pay-book? — A. Yes, the exception, sir. I have known of a cot case or a stretcher case, for instance, who came back as such from England, who was not issued his pay-book on leaving England. Q. Where did it go to? — A. It probably came over from England to Canada with his documents, but it may not have, of course. Q. When a man gets separated from his pay-book, what is the reason? — A. Now, sir, you are asking me to make a statement which Q. We would like to have you make this statement for the sake of the soldier, in order to get at the facts if we can? — A. That is a matter for the Accountant and Paymaster General to speak of. Q. But I am asking you from your experience, as you have met and talked with the men. You know the men who came over here without pay-books, how did it happen that they came back without the book? — A. In some cases they have told me frankly that the books were taken away from them in England. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Do you mean forcibly? — A. No, they were simply asked for them. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. They were asked for the pay-book for a temporary purpose? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And it was not given back to them? — A. It was not given back to them. Q. When a man is discharged, is it not a fact that his pay-book reappears, and his accounts are made up? — A. Of course, after a man returns from overseas service he will from time to time receive advances on his pay and allowance, which would be recorded on his last pay certificate which would not be recorded in his pay-book. Q. I was referring to the statements of some of the men that they had not got their pay-books. As a matter of fact does not the pay-book reappear when the man is [Major G. E. Hall.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 601 discharged and his account made up? — A. In some cases, sir, but I have known of instances where the man disputed his account as not being correct. For instance, he received a cheque for such and such an amount covering his pay and allowances in full up to date his discharge was eflfective. He claimed there was some money st'll due him. Q. On the strength of having his pay-book with him? — A. So far as his balance was concerned upon his departure from England and upon his arrival at the Discharge Depot in Canada. Q. Did the pay-book reappear? — A. The man is supposed to have his pay-book. By the Chairman: Q. Who discharges these men? Do you do that? — A. Yes, sir. Q. When you discharge a man is his pay-book always there? — A. That is not for me to say, sir. Q. As a matter of fact, when you discharge a man is his pay-book there as a rule? — A. A man may be discharged without his pay-book being in evidence. The officer paying casualties is responsible for his cheque or cheques being made up covering the balance due him up to and including the date of his discharge. Q. I am not speaking of his responsibilities, I am speaking of the actual fact. When you discharge a man does he have his pay-book? — A. Generally speaking, yes, sir, unless he is one of the exceptions and does not have it. Q. Unless he became separated from his pay-book in England? — A. Yes. Q. There is only one more question to ask. Returning to the matter of the cells. In your opinion would a convalescent soldier be just as well disciplined, as far as discipline is concerned, in a cell with a mattress as in a cell without one? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And the danger of injuring him physically would be avoided if he had a mattress rather than if he had to sleep on the floor? — Hon. Mr. Murphy: Provided he did not inflict self-injury. A. Before I took command, sir, there was a mattress and a so-called detention room in the Grey Nuns' Convalescent Home, and the mattress was used on more than one occasion, (of which I am personally aware), as a means of escape; with its assist- ance the men got out. Q. I do not think the mattress could be used as a means of escape from the cells you have in the Grey Nunnery? — A. No, sir, because they were built according to the designs of the engineers, the other was not. Q. So that is not a reason why you do not have a mattress? — A. Of course there are exceptions, but generally speaking, the less inviting you can make a cell or a detention room Q. The greater the punishment? — A. Not only that, sir, but the less crime you have, and I have had evidence of it. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. What about the temperature of these cells in the winter time. Were they warm or were they cold ? — A. There were times, sir, when they were cold. There were times, sir, when the recreation room was cold, there were times when my office was so cold I could hardly hold my pen. Q. If a man who was drunk was put into one of these cells on the bare floor at a time when the cells were cold, would he be given any more than the two blankets you spoke of? — A. Yes, sir, he would, and they got them too. Q. He would get enough blankets to keep him warm, would he? — A. Yes. There arc two dozen standard army grey blankets which are kept for the sole use of the men in the cells and are issued from my Quartermaster's stores. Q. Is the floor in the cells of cement or wood? — -"A. It is a wooden floor. [Major G. E. Hall.] 602 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q, How far from the ground is it? — A. There is a cellar underneath the whole of the recreation room. Q. Are these cells under the recreation room? — A. Outside of it but on the same floor level. Q. Is there a cellar underneath the cells? — A. Underneath the whole floor, sir. Q. I thought the cells were in a separate building? — A. No, sir. The Chairman: They are in the corridor as you go into the hospital. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. For how many hours would these men be detained in the cells at one time? — ~ A. There have been cases where men were detained there for 168 hours. Q. Without a medical ofiicer seeing them? — A. No, sir, before that man was sen- tenced he was considered tit for detention by the medical officer. Q. Suppose a man, a drunken man, is placed in the cell at night, is he paraded before you the next morning? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Is he then released or is he sent back to confinement? — A. It all depends upon the nature of the charge, sir. Q. Well, take a case of ordinary drunkenness? — A. An ordinary case of drunken- ness brings admonishment on the first charge. The fine for the second charge, the fine is $2. For the third charge, and every subsequent offence the fine is $3, but if within a certain period, $5. If within another certain period (8 months), $6. All above according to Koyal Warrant. Q. If they sober up they are really not sent back to the cells, that is, if there is no drunkenness? — A. If it is a straight charge of drunkenness I cannot sentence a man to cells. I cannot mete out any other sentence to a man for drunkenness but fines according to Royal Warrant, just the same as in the case of a man who is absent with- out leave. That man automatically forfeits his pay for the period he is absent, accord- ing to Royal Warrant. Q. I used to hear it said that being merely drunk was not a military offence, but there would have to be disorderly conduct, or some other offence? — -A, A man has either got to be fit or unfit for duty. You cannot, in the army touch a man for being under the influence of liquor. Q. Then being simply under the influence of liquor does not count? — A. Oh, no. Witness discharged. Committee adjourned to meet in Toronto on Tuesday, March 20, 1917. [Major G. E. Hall.] I APPENDIX EXHIBITS Nos. 1. 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6. II EXHIBIT No. 1. Submitted by Major L. P. D. TILLEY, M.L.A. PROVINCE OF NEW BRUNSWICK. LAND SETTLEMENT AFTER THE WAK. For some time the Government of the Province of New Brunswick has had under consideration the subject of assisting ex-soldiers who desire to emigrate at the close of the war and who, it is pointed out, should, if possible, be retained within the Empire and not be allowed to drift abroad for want of guidance and knowledge of opportunities available to them in the Dominion. It is quite apparent that the greatest measure of assistance that can be given by this Government to ex-soldiers coming to us at the close of the war will be along agricultural lines. After some very considerable consideration had been given to the subject, a Bill was introduced at the session of the Legislature of 1916, being Chapter 9, 6th George v., entitled " An Act to Provide for Settlements After the War ". This Act is as follows : — " Whereas, it is expected that after the cessation of the present war there will be a large influx of population into this Province, composed largely of residents of the Province who have served overseas and also residents of the United Kingdom who have served the Empire in the present war, together with others whose altered circum- stances may render their emigration advisable; And Whereas, it is desirable to provide a comprehensive system for settling such persons upon suitable lands in this Province in communities so organized as to provide for social comfort and co-operation; And Whereas, one of the principal features of such scheme will be the provision for such settlers of homes and practical assistance and instruction in agriculture and all other matters necessary for the successful development of such communities ; Be it, therefore, enacted by the Lieutenant-Governor and Legislative Assembly, as follows : — 1. The "Farm Settlement Board" as constituted under the Act 2 George V., Chapter 28, is hereby empowered to submit for the approval of the Advisory Board hereinafter constituted, the selection of such lands within the Province as may be suit- able for the purpose hereinbefore recited, and also the acquisition of such private lands as may be found to be necessary and suitable for the said purpose and the furnishing of such supplies, equipment, instruction and education and other services as may be necessary. 2. The Lieutenant Governor in Council shall appoint a Board to consist of not more than five persons, who shall be known as the " Advisory Settlement Board ", which shall report to the Lieutenant Governor in Council on all propositions for the borrowing of money, the acquisition of lands or other property, the fixing of general conditions for selling, leasing or otherwise disposing of said lands or property to set- tlers, the terms and conditions upon which money may be loaned to settlers, including the terms of re-payment by such settlers, and generally the details of all projects con- nected with the carrying out of the purpose of this Act. The Farm Settlement Board shall act in such matters only in conformity with the general regulations or specific directions which may be made or given from time to time by the Lieutenant Governor in Council, and shall be imder the supervision of the Minister of Agriculture. 606 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.- RETURNED SOLDIERS 3. The services of the said Advisory Board shall he gratuitous and honorary. 4. The Lieutenant Governor in Council may, from time to time, borrow upon the credit of the Province, such sum or sums of moiicy in such form of securities for re- payment, at such rate of interest, and upon such terms and conditions as may be deem- ed advisable for the promotion of the purpose of this Act. 5. Within ten days after the opening of each session of the Legislature, a full re- port of all proceedings of the Lieutenant Governor in Ccmncil, the Advisory Board and the Farm Settlement Board, under this Act shall be laid on the table of the House by the Minister of Agriculture. 6. The Lieutenant Governor in Council, upon the recommendation of the said Minister, shall make such regulations as may be necessary for determining the rights and liabilities of all settlers under this Act and in respect of all other matters in rela- tion to the carrying out of the purpose of this Act as shall be deemed necessary or advisable, and such regulations so made shall have the same force and effect as if enact- ed herein and shall be judicially noticed by all courts. By this it will be seen that the Government is authorized to take such steps as will provide homes and practical assistance and instruction in agriculture, and all other matters necessary for the development of a comprehensive system for settling resi- dents of the province who have served overseas and also residents in the United King- dom who have served the l^mpire in the present war, together with others whose alter- ed circumstances may render their emigration advisable, upon suitable lands in this Province, in colonies or communities so located as to provide for social comfort and co-operation. The Farm Settlement Board, referred to in Section 1 of the Act, has been actively engaged during the past few years placing settlers iipon the vacant farms of the Pro- vince and in this has been unusually successful. The Advisory Settlement Board, referred to in Section 2 of the Act, has already been appointed and has held joint meetings with the Farm Settlement Board. At these meetings it was arranged to go ahead with active preparations, looking towards the consummation of the scheme at the earliest possible moment, placing us in a position to receive the class of immigrants for whom the assistance is intended at any time. The project provides for settlement in groups or communities, the number of set- tlers in each case depending upon the soil and the area of suitable land that is avail- able in such locality. Each of these groups will be constantly in touch with an illus- tration farm, operated by the Government for the purpose of supplying instruction, employment, necessary implements and assistance generally in the operation of a farm. It is proposed to have available for settlement, lots ranging from 10 acres to 100 acres, with a view to meeting the requirements of the different applicants. Conditions of Settlement. It is proposed to give the settlers free land, when this is owned by the Govern- ment, and, in the case of land purchased from private individuals, the settlers will be charged the actual cost of the farm. In addition to the land acquired, the settler will be charged with improvements made to the property, such as erecting a suitable resi- dence and barn and such other improvements as may be considered necessary. The estimated cost of each holding will be from Five Hundred Dollars (£100) to Fifteen Hundred Dollars (£300). The settler will be asked to make an initial payment of 5 per cent of the value on taking possession of one of these farms, the balance to be paid in nineteen annual payments, with interest at the prevailing rate. If a settler so desires, he can have the privilege of paying for the property in full at the end of ten years or sooner, but in no case will he be given a deed before the expiration of ten years. RECEI'TIOy, TRKATMEM' AXD RE-EDUCATWX 607 Size of Holdings. Each area for settlement will be divided into lots ranging from ten acres to one hundred acres, with a view to meeting the requirements of the different applicants. Provincial Assistance. Seed-grain will, where necessary, be provided by order of the Farm Settlement Bo£trd, and sold at cost and on easy terms to the purchasers of the improved farms. The services of the officials representing the different branches of the Depart- ment of Agriculture will be available for the benefit of the settlers. Situation. The areas for settlement will be located in different parts of the province where suitable land can be obtained near market and transportation facilities. Character and Quality of Soil. In most instances the land is rolling and of good quality, varying from sandy loam to clay loam, and in some cases heavy clay. In localities where there is a light sandy soil, the land will be divided into small holdings for the raising of poultry and small fruits. Opportunities for Production and Marheting. Sufficient cleared land will be available for settlers on each holding. Where possible, a co-operative system for selling the products of the farms will be established. It will be the aim of the Government to see that the highest prices are secured for all products. Transportation. Settlements will all be placed near railway lines or water communication, allow- ing direct connection with the larger towns and cities. Employment. It is proposed, as far as possible, to utilize the services of the new settlers in clearing and preparing their colony farms for occupation or in working on the illustra- tion farms, thus affording them practical experience and a fair wage. Vocational Training. Opportunities are afforded within the province for agricultural education by means of schools established at different points. Here short courses are held through- out the year at which practical instruction in farm work is given. For settlers' wives and daughters opportunity is afforded for instruction in domestic science, this work being under the Department of Agriculture and carried on by the department direct and through the women's institutes throughout the province almost continually. Technical Education. The Government proposes in the near future to establish technical schools in the province, where returned soldiers and settlers can avail themselves of the technical training afforded and equip themselves for other occupations than that of farming. This work has not reached an advanced stage in New Brunswick as yet, but the matter is now receiving the attention of the Government and it is proposed to begin the work of technical education in the almost immediate future. 608 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS The carrying out of the above scheme will be, by regulations, prepared by the joint Advisory and Farm Settlement Boards, and approved of by the Lieutenant- Governor-in-Council. In addition to the form of settlement indicated above, should any returned soldiers who desire to settle in the province have sufficient capital to make it un- necessary to take advantage of the community settlement idea, the Government can, through the Farm Settlement Board, supply such with good farms in desirable localities, farms that will be capable of greater production and consequently a larger income during the first few years. These can be obtained at from Two Thousand Dollars (£400) to Four Thousand Dollars (£800). Suitable lands are available for agricultural specialties such as poultry, sheep raising or bee culture, and may be obtained by approved settlers at a minimum rent. Regulations Governing the Sale of Land. All applications for farms under " An Act to Provide for Settlement After the War " must be made either to the Agent General for the Province of New Brunswick, at 37 Southampton Street, Strand, London, W.C., or to the Secretary of the Farm Settlement Board, St. John, New Brunswick, Canada. Printed forms of application with declaration by applicant may be had at the above offices, where a description of the lots available can be obtained. The applicants must be supported by any proof required by the said Board. Allotments will be made only to married men who are bona fide settlers, settlement and occupation being the basis of the contract. Contract for the Purchase of Improved Farms. The contract will provide that: — On payment to the Farm Settlement Board of five per cent of the purchase price and execution of the official contract, the settler may go into possession of the farm allotted to him. The balance of the purchase price of the land shall be payable in nineteen annual payments with interest at per cent. The contract shall only be assignable for good cause approved by the Farm Settle- men Board. The settler shall pay all taxes assessed against the farm from the date of the contract. The buildings on the farm shall be insured in favour of the Farm Settlement Board until paid for by the settler, and the insurance premium shall be paid by him. The settler -shall keep records of his farming operations in account books to be supplied by the Farm Settlement Board, which shall be available for inspection by any member of the Board or their Agent. The settler shall, until paid for, keep all buildings and improvements on the farm in good and tenantable repair, order and condition. The settler shall break, cultivate, sow and crop such portions of his farm as from time to time may be expedient in the good farming operations of the said land. The settlers operations on his own land shall be carried on under the advice and with the approval of a Government Superintendent. The settler shall not, until he has paid the full purchase price, cut or remove any timber or logs from his farm without first getting the written consent of the said Board. When warranted by conditions the Farm Settlement Board may make provision for a supply of seed and the use of farm machinery in favour of the settler. The settler may at his option pay in full for his farm at any time, but shall not receive his deed before the expiration of ten years from date of purchase. RECEPTWX, TREATJJEM' A\D RE-EDUCATION 609 The title to lands sold by the Farm Settlement Board shall remain in the Board until the purchaser has made all his ])ayments required by his contract. While the contract contains the usual provisions for forfeiture in case of default, the settler is assured that these regulations will be sympathetically administered with the single purpose of making him a successful and contented farmer upon the land in the Province of New Brunswick. < PROVINCE OF XEW BRUNSWICK. CANADA. SCHEDULE A. Application for Farm Allotment under the Act to Provide for Settlement after the War. I, hereby apply for a farm allotment described hereunder : — No. of Lot Applied For. County and Parish. Area. Price, Interest Payment. Annual Payment. And I undertake to accept the terms and conditions contained in the Official Agreement and the Regulations for the time being in force thereunder and such other terms and conditions as the Governor and Council may impose. Signature of Applicant. To the Secretary of the Farm Settlement Board. DECLARATION. Schedule B. . . . of declare that: 1. I am the applicant for land comprised in this application. 2. The answers to the following questions are true and correct in every particular. (a) Give name of force of which you were a member, period of su&li service, and date of discharge. (&) Give reason for discharge. (c) ,What was your occupation previous to enlistment? (d) Have you ever worked on the land, if so, at what and for how long ? (e) Are you married or single, what family, if any? (/) Have you any interest in land at the present time? (g) What means have you, if any, for stocking and cultivating the land? 28277—39 610 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS (/i) What was your last place of residence? Dated this day of A.D. 19. . . Witness : Signature. I beg to submit herewith particulars of a scheme proposed by the Farm Settle- ment Board to provide for settlement after the war; also regulations governing the !)* 612 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F. —RETURN ED SOLDIERS neither tlie medical attention or the necessary expert treatment recommended by the Medical Board. It is a crime and shame that Nova Scotians who have received their wounds or become invalided defending the Empire, should be so neglected upon their return to these shores, that nothing is being done to decrease that disability with the inevitable result that they are daily deteriorating physically. I have urged this matter again and again upon the Military Hospitals Com- mission, and have given them my time in an effort to secure a proper building or buildings for a convalescent home, all apparently without any actual progress being made. Finally, feeling that this subject should not be allowed to be delayed any longer, I addressed the following letter to Senator McLennan : — " I have been hoping for some time that definite and prompt action would be taken by the Commission regarding the marginally noted subject matter. " If Dalhousie has been actually accepted, then immediate steps should be taken to take over the building so that the public will know that this province has at least a place where the Class 2 men can receive treatment and atten- tion. " Every steamer is increasing the number of men who should be in a Con- valescent home, and at the present time the number has reached two hundred and forty men who are all out patients. " This is a state of affaii^s that has now come to the point where no further - delay can safely be allowed to take place, either in the interests of the men or that of the Commission. " Men and their friends are complaining of the neglect of their individual cases. None of these out-patients are receiving the treatment recommended by the Medical Board held on them at various discharge depots at time of dis- charge. This is not the fault of the A.D.M.S. because the military hospitals are full, and the men cannot obtain treatment in their home locality because of the inability of the doctors to do so for various reasons. "Take the recent case of Joseph M. Douglas, his cause of disability -is G.S.W. left ann with ulnar and medium nerve paralysis. The Board's recom- mendation is " Convalescent Home for Massage." Where is there such a place, and how can he in his own village, " Spanish Ship Bay, N.S.," obtain the kind of massage required, and even if he could I am unaware of a provision whereby the expense would be paid. " I am writing you as this province's representative to see to it that the present state of affairs regarding convalescent home in this province is remedied without further delay. " Ontario and the West by this time has surely obtained enoiigh sanatoria and convalescent homes to do them until these Maritime Provinces have had a fair share of the same. Because Ontario has had a larger enlistment, and therefore larger casualty list is no reason why our convalescent men should be all out-patients by force of circumstances. The other provinces must have theii share of these as well, and by this I do not mean men who can go to convalesent homes for treatment, but out-patients because there are none to go to. " I have, to date, kept the newspapers from printing articles sent them on this question, but the pressure is becoming daily greater and I cannot succeed much longer. " The question now is does the Commission i^ropose providing for our convalescent men and that without further delay. Every day's delay means that much less prospect for the returned men to get back to their former physical condition. " I am sending a copy of this to Mr. Dobell who kuoAvs the circumstances here." RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 613 I also sent to Mr. W. M. Dobell, who was here a few montlis ago and is thoroughly conversant with the needs of this province, a copy of letter forwarded Senator Mc- Lennan, and he replied as follows: — " I am just in receipt of your letter of the 2Gth inst. covering copy of yuur letter of the same date to send to Senator McLennan. 1 am fully alive to the situation in your Province, and I have urged that prompt action be taken to rectify it every time I have been in Ottawa. " I am writing to Senator McLennan, and I hope that your definite .state- ment of the present situation may result in prompt action. '* There is more accommodation required in Ontario but that is no reason why Nova Scotia should be without any." I also received the following reply from Senator McLennan : — " I duly received your favour of the 2Gth ulto., and since its receipt have been in conference with the heads of our departments in relation to the matter on which you touch. '' Progress is being made at Dalhousie, and Colonel Thompson has taken up the case of the man to whom you refer, and similar ones, with a view of preventing deterioration by sending them, until our institutions in Nova Scotia are ready, to other places. " We will write you in connection with this matter." The following letter was also received from Colonel Thompson : " Your letter of January 26th to Senator McLennan has been handed to me for attention. A former letter of mine will have advised you regarding Dal- liousie. " 2. You will understand that until the Clayton Home is vacated, cleaned and made ready for the reception of our own soldiers, or until Dalhousie is ready for these men, we have no accommodation other than the Eoss Hospital in Nova Scotia at the present time. " 3. It is expected that the coloured soldiers in the Clayton Home will soon be returning to the West Indies and our Architect advised \is that the work at the Dalhousie Building is progressing. " 4. I desire to draw your attention to the fact that any cases requiring special treatment should nr.t le sent to their own homes, but should be sent to ft Hospital under the M.II.(\ v here treatment can be given. "' 5. With particular reference to Joseph ]\I. Douglas whose case you refer to — this man may be sent to the Grey Nuns' Hospital, Montreal. I am writing today to Capt. Morton, Halifax, to investigate this case and all similar ones that may now be in the Province, and to report upon each, so that we may be advised from time to time and thereby be able to make arrangements to give these men the best treatment the Commission can afford, ponding the time when this can be done in Halifax." The only result to date of these last communications is an intimation that Captain ^Nforton is to report upon each case in the Province, but they have that now, as the following explanation shows : When a ^faritime man lands here he is taken to the Discharge Depot where he is medically boarded and classified. This Board has before it the man's documents con- taining the English Boards opinion. The Canadian Medical Board's opinion is copied into the ^filitary Hospitals Commission forms, so that each man's case is on file at Ottawa, with fuil particulars of his disability and Canadian Board's recommendation. There is a rumour that the Clearing Hospital Pier No. 2 is to be used temporarily for a Convalescent Home. Supposing that it is true, it can only be a makeshift, as the Pier 2 will very shortly be needed for active cases from England. In any event what is needed, and immediately, is a Convalescent Home properly equipped and with expert medical attendance. 614 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.-RETURtiED SOLDIERS Thei-e is a further rumour tliat the Ohiytou Convalescent Home is also to be used for the more serious cases, liotli of tliese are only temporary. The situation in this Province is so acute and serious that I would urge this Com- mittee to pass a strcnigly worded resolution and to follow it up with a delegation to Ottawa. It is only fair to state that in my opinion, this state of affairs is not due to the officials at Ottawa, but to the Commission itself. Those of Class 2 who are tubercular will very shortly be able to be treated by reason of the additional accommodation at Kentville, being erected at the joint expense of the Federal and Local Governments. Vocational 'Training. It will be remembered that on the 25th day of August, 191G, a scheme of organiza- tion for training disabled soldiers was placed before this Committee. This matter is also being delayed because of the neglect in the appointment of a Medical Officer to undertake the work. Medical Officer. Dr. A. McD. Morton, is supposed to be the Medical Officer for '' B " Unit, Xova Scotia, but he has not been relieved of his medical duties at the Citadel, and it is therefore impossible for him to give the attention required to the duties of his office. Appended hereto is a tabulated statement of Class 2 men as of this date (February 20, 1917). Welcome Committees. We have committees all over the province and they are doing good work, both in welcoming and obtaining employment. Both the Halifax Citizens and Dartmouth Citizens Committees are also of great help. (Sgd.) W. B. MacCOY, Secretary. EXHIBIT Iso. 4. Order in Council creating the Soldiers Employment Commission of the Province of Quebec. Dated November 10, 1915. {Submitted hy Hon. George A. Simard). Concerning the Interprovincial Conference at Ottawa in October, 1915 re Providing employment for members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force who return to Canada during the period of the War. The Honorable the Secretary of the Province, in a report dated the 10th Xovember 1915, sets forth: that the following suggestions were adopted at an Inter-Provincial Conference held at Ottawa in October 1915, regarding the problem of taking care of and providing employment for members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force who return to Canada during the period of the war. 1. The Military Hospitals Commission should undertake to assist and advise all Provincial or local committee or organizations with respect to the best methods and plans to be adopted to attain the objects in view. RECEniOS, TREATMEST ASH IiE-EDiCATW\ 615 2. The Governiiieiit of eacli Province should appoint a Central Provincial Com- mittee consisting of such number of members as each Province may deem advisable. o. All expenditures necessary in connection with the organization and adminis- tration of Provincial and other purely local committees should be borne by Provincial or local authorities or by voluntary contributions. 4. Each of the Provinces of Canada working through its Central Committee should assume the responsibility of endeavoring to find employment for discharged soldiers who, upon their return to Canada are physically and otherwise fit to assume such employment. All expenditures necessary in undertaking the duty should be borne by the Provinces. 5. The ^lilitary Hospitals Coniinission should assume the responsibility of taking care of and providing for all returned soldiers who for any cause are incapacitated for employment, or who require special training or treatment before being able to under- take any employment. 0. With a view to assisting the Commission in this discharge of its responsibilities in this regard, each Provincial Central Committee should be constituted as a branch sub-committee of the Commission, and should be under its direction. One of the mem- bers of the Committee to be designated by the Provincial Government should be e.x- officio a member of the Commission. 7. Through its Central Committee each Province should furnish to the Commis- sion a detailed statement of the institutions and facilities within its borders which will be available for the purpose of taking care of and providing for the various classes of returned soldiers referred to in suggestion No. 5, including all necessary particulars regarding the accommodation available and the terms and conditions under which institutions and facilities may be made use of for the purpose mentioned under Pro- vincial and local administrations. 8. All expenditures necessary in connection with carrying out the responsibilities referred to in suggestion No. 5 should be borne by the Military Hospitals Commission, except such as are agreed upon by the respective Provinces in the detailed statements to be furnished to the Commission under suggestion Xo. T. To carry out the al ove suggestions, the Honorable the Secretary recommends that the following be appointed members of the Committee for the Province of Quebec, viz : The Honorable George Simard, 'Manufacturer, of Montreal, Chairman. The Honourable (ieorge K. Amyot, ^laiiufacturer. Quebec. Mr. Alphonse Verville, M.P., Maisonneuve. Mr. James A. Mc^Ianamy, Broker, Quebec. • Mr. A. K. Cameron. Manufacturer, Westmount. Mr. J. K. Edwards, Merchant. Sherbrooke. Mr. Phillip Lassonde. Merchant, Three Rivers. Mr. Smeatou White. Journalist, ^Montreal. of whom Mr. Smeaton White, a member of the Military Hospitals Commission, will represent the Quebec Central Committee in that Commission and that the following be appointed Joint Secretaries of the Committee, viz.: Mr. Fernand Rinfret, Journalist, Montreal. Mr. G. W. Mackenzie, Insurance Agent, Montreal. and tbat they be paid each a salary of $500 per annum. The Committee to have power to appoint a stenographer, at a salary not exceed- ing $50 per month, and that they be authorized to lease an office in Montreal, for the purposes of the Committee, and to incur all necessary and incidental expenses required for carrying on their work. 616 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS EXHIBIT No. 5. {Submitted by Hon. George Simard.) Memorandum of suggestions adopted at Interprovincial Coufereiiee, Ottawa, October, 1915, regarding the problem of taking care of and providing employment for members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force who return to Canada during the period of the war. The representatives of the several provinces, in attendance at the conference, agree to submit for approval to their respective Governments the following sugges- tions, regarding the various problems involved in taking care of and finding employ- ment for members of the Canadian -Expeditionary Force who return to Canada during the period of the war. In case upon consideration, the Government of any province deems it advisable to alter or amend any of their suggestions, or make further suggestions, it shall immediately forward notice thereof to ithe provincial secretary of eact of the other provinces of Canada, with a view to having the same approved by the Government of such provinces. Suggestio7is. 1. The Military Hospitals Commission should undertake to assist and advise all Provincial or local committees or organizations with respect to the best methods and plans to be adopted to attain the objects in view. 2. The Government of each Province should appoint a Central Provincial Com- mittee consisting of such number of members as each Province may deem advisable. 3. All expenditures necessary in connection with the organization and adminis- tration of Provincial and other purely local committees should be borne by Provincial or local authorities or by voluntary contributions. 4. Each of the Provinces of Canada w^orking through its Central Committee should assume the responsibility of endeavouring to find employment for discharged soldiers, who, upon their return to Canada, are physically and otherwise fit to assume such employment. All expenditures necessary in undertaking the duty should be borne by the Provinces. 5. The Military Hospitals Commission should assume the responsibility of taking care of and providing for all returned soldiers who for any cause are incapacitated for employment, or who require special training or treatment before being able to under- take any employment. 6. With a view to assisting the Commission in this discharge of its responsibilities in this regard, each Provincial Central Committee should be constituted as a branch sub-committee of the Commission, and should be under its direction. One of the members of the Committee to be designated by the Provincial Government sliould be cx-officio a member of the Commission. 7. Through its central committee, each Province should furnish to the Commission a detailed statement of the institutions and facilities within its borders which will be available for the purpose of taking care of and providing for the various classes of returned soldiers referred to in suggestion No. 5 including all necessary particulars regarding the accommodation available and the terms and conditions under which institutions and facilities may be made use of for the purpose mentioned under Provincial and local administrations. 8. All expenditures necessary in connection with carrying out the responsibilities referred to in suggestion No. 5 should be borne by the :Military Hospitals Commis- sion, except such as are agreed upon by the respective Provinces in the detailed state- ments to be furnished to the Commission under suggestion No. 7. RECEPTIOy, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 617 Future Problems. In the above suggestions the conference has attempted to deal only with those problems which are pressing for the moment. There are, however, two other problems* which demand attention. The first of them relates to the advisability of devising a practical method of placing returned soldiers on the land, under such conditions as will enable them to provide comfortably for themselves and families. This problem is so complex in its character tliat it would seem advisable to make it the subject of a special inquiry to be instituted by the Federal authorities. The other problem relates to the finding of employment for the large number of soldiers who, within a short space of time, will return to Canada upon the conclusion of the war. It is suggested that the committee, as well as the Provincial authorities, should give the ^luestion their consideration with a view to arriving at a possible practical solution thereof at a subsequent conference. Conclusion. In conclusion, the conference desires to assure the Military Hospitals Conmiissiou that the provincial Governments of Canada are in hearty sympathy with the move- ment of making suitable provision for returned soldiers, and-will endeavour in every possible manner to facilitate the work of the Commission by arranging to place at the disposal of the Commission such Provincial institutions and facilities as are available for the purpose. Notes of Meeting of Special Committee appointed to deal ivith the Adjustment of Relations between the Military Hospitals Commission and the Provincial Gov- ernments in Matters arising out of the Education of Disabled Soldiers. Meeting held March 17, 1910, in office of Soldiers' Employment Commission, Dandurand Building, Montreal. Present : Hon. J. S. McLennan, Hon. G. A. Simard and the Vocational Secretary. The Vocational Secretary reported that Mr. W. D. McPherson had telegraphed regretting his inability to be present. The Vocational Secretary submitted the following notes on the interview which Hon. G. A. Simard and the Vocational Secretary had with Hon. Mr. Mitchell, pro- vincial treasurer, at Quebec, on March 15, 1916. 1. Hon. Mr. Simard outlined the proposed scheme of classes in convalescent homes and inquired of Hon. ^Ir. ^Mitchell what the attitude of the Quebec Government would be towards the Commission's undertaking such work. 2. Hon. Mr. Mitchell stated that:— (a) " The Quebec Government will not interfere in any way as long as the M.H.C. is dealing only with disabled soldiers." (6) " This was the understanding arrived at by the Conference which met in Ottawa on October 19 and 20 last." (c) " If a Provincial Committee is required for the Educational side of the work of the M.H.C, let the Military Hospitals Commission appoint one. If the M.H.C. desired, it might consult the Provincial Commission as to the per- sonnel of the Committee." 3. Hon. Mr. Simard stated that he had seen Hon. Mr. Mitchell again on the matter on ^larch l(i. and that Mr. Mitchell had confirmed his statements as to the attitude of the Quebec (Jovernment. ^Ir. Simard said that the intention and under- standing was tliat the ^lilitary Hospitals Commission should have "carte blanche" in the work of educating disabled soldiers. 4. It was therefore resolved that the Military Hospitals Commission should, with the advice and on the recommendation of the Provincial Commissions invite a small number of persons in each province to act as an advisory council on the education of disabled soldiers. The President of the Provincial Commission to be a member of the Provincial Advisory Council. 618 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.K.F.UETV IIS El> SOLDIERS KXIIIlilT X(.. C. Sahnutk'd b[i JJr. F. //-. Sexton, Vocational O/liccr of the M.II.C. Mejioha.ndu.m re Vocational Training-, (Quebec and Maritime Provinces. Vocational training was started simultaneously in Eastern Canada by the opening of classes at the convalescent homes in Montreal and Sydney, ]S^.S., on Ai^ril o, 191G. At first the range of subjects ottered was very limited, consisting of instruction in business, English, Arithmetic, Mechanical and Architectural drawing, and handicraft in wood. The teachers at first were engaged for only one or two hours each day and were drawn from the public schools and technical schools. On April 24, 1916, vocational work was introduced into the Parks Convalescent Home in St. John, N.B., by the engagement of a part-time teacher and on June 13, 1916, classes were opened at Savard Park Convalescent Hospital, Quebec. During this time, it had become apparent that the vocational classes had a great therapeutic and disciplinary value in the homes as well as a practical value to the men in increasing their wage-earning potentiality against the time when they would return to civilian life again. The advisability of providing some light occupational work and technical training for men convalescing from tuberculosis was seriously considered. The medical experts in charge of sanatoria welcomed this policy within certain limits. Tuberculosis patients were divided into three classes: (1) Bed cases, (2) porch cases, and (3) cases which were allowed gi-adually increasing exercise. The work .was started as an experiment at Laurentide Inn at Ste. Agathe les Monts, Quebec, in the ■ middle of November, 1916. A special building had been erected for a workshop and it was fitted up with a modest equipment of woodworking machinery, carpenters' ben- ches, etc. The reason for putting in power-driven machinery Avas to obviate the neces- sity of the patients putting any undue strain upon the muscles of their chests. The windows facing south had the sashes removed and ordinary light cotton cloth tacked in. This afforded free access of air without draughts. The typewriters were also placed in this building and men who had progressed far enough to be taking exercise spent a certain amount of time here every day. They have done some very creditable work in wood and are beginning to do something in hammered metal. As the men become stronger and their strength rises toward normal, they naturally turn toward education which will give them wage-earning power. For such men, mechanical drawing, sign writing, typewriting, bookkeeping, motor mechanics, etc. is provided. For porch cases light work such as embroidery, ratfia, weaving, basketry, and study are provided and help the soldiers to pass the time. For bed cases, no educational work is attempted. All the vocational training is carried on under the direct observation of the medical officer and any patient who over-exerts himself is denied the privilege. Any of the patients at the Laurentian sanatorium who are on exercise and wish to attend the classes at Laurentide Inn are allowed to do so. Educational work at the Lake Edward sanatorium was started on January 15, 191T. Here it was found that enough of the patients had had training and experience in various lines to act as instructors. Therefore a staff waS selected to teach English, French, agriculture, book-keeping, motor mechanics, and stenography and typewriting. These men were given $15 a month each in addition to their military pay and allow- ances and the cost of instruction was kept down to a very low figure. Each man who is allowed to take training by the medical officer is given actual teaching two days a week and given enough work to keep them busy studying and practising between lessons; When the weather becomes warmer, the men will be RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 619 able to do much more effective Avork on the porches. p]quipment for woodworking and handicraft work will be installed if it appears from the experience at Ste. Agathe des Monts that this should be an integral part of the plant at each sanatorium. After a few weeks' experience in supplying vocational training in the convalescent homes, the great value of this work was an aid to the medical and disciplinary depart- ments of the work. It became obvious that the men should have a certain definite amount of instruction each day, unless excused by the medical officer. Therefore, provisions were made for a regular programme of physical and vocational training for each week day. This was put into eifeot simultaneously with the formation of the units of the Military Hospitals Commission Command. The vocational branch had to secure full-time teachers because the hours of instruction occupied the middle of each day. The number of subjects of instruction was extended and better results were apparent immediately. At tlie Ross ^lilitary Convalescent Hospital only was the system of part-time instructors continued, because it seemed to hi' adequate for this small home. In Montreal a portion of the recreation room at the Grey Xuns' home was partitioned oflf for workshops and class rooms. The classes in mechanical drawing and mathematics which had l>een carried on at Khaki League Home No. 2 were transferred to the new quarters. As the number of returned men increased, the subjects taught were also increased to include French, English, arithmetic, prepara- tion for the Civil Service examinations, woodworking, novelty making, shoe repairing, motor mechanics, mechanical and architectural drawing, and stenography and type- writing. In woodworking, shoe repairing and novelty making tlie men had the opportunity of making fifty cents to $1 a day by making products that were sold. In this respect, the cost of materials was deducted from each article, 20 per cent was deducted for overhead expense and the cost of materials, and the remainder of the money remained as a profit for the soldier. The men in the home could draw 20 per cent of the amount due them from time to time if it appeared desirable to the instructor but all the soldiers were encouraged to leave the whole of the balance in their favour until they were discharged. This gave them a little nest Qgg in addition to their deferred pay witli which they could tide over the hiatus between getting out of military service and securing a position in civilian life. The opportunity to make a little extra money beside securing some proficiency in one of the lines of work mentioned was a great incentive to the men to keep busy during their convalescence. Their efforts also tended to build their muscular power up toward the normal capacity which they possessed before enlistment. It soon became apparent that the quarters provided at the Grey Xuns Home for vocational training were much too limited. When plans were made for the opening of a new convalescent home in the old Loyola College Building on Drummond street, l)rovision for a special new building was made to give adequate space for the classes. Later it was decided that this building would take up too much room on the grounds of this homo. The Applied Science Faculty of McGill University and the Directors of the new Montreal Technical School, TO Sherbrooke street, "W.. were approached to see if quarters could not be procured for vocational tr'-aining. Both institutions met tlie -Military Hospitals Commission with a splendid generosity and placed their rooms and e(iuipnient at the disposal of the commission in so far as it did not hamper the regular work. A new cl'-ass in nn\chine tool operating was thus possible at ^fcGill University in their, fully equipped machine shop. At the Montreal Technical School the Commission was given the continuous use of two splendid class rooms seating 40 men each, the automobile laboratory and demonstration room, and a h'all about 200 by 40 feet, which was divided into suitable work rooms and class rooms. Accommo- dation has thus been secured for the training of 250 or 300 men '-at once. The classes were transferred to their new quarters last week. Those who can walk the required distance are paraded mider escort from and to the convalescent 620 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS home '•and the others who are still suffering from their disabilities to such an extent that the walk is too much of an effort are driven back and forth. There have been three blinded men who have come back to ]\rontreal who needed vocational education. One of these men was given his ti'-aining at the Montreal School for the Blind, 6500 Sherbrooke street W., and after leaving the school has been able to earn a competent living continuously at his home in the West. Another man was given instruction in Braille reading, writing and typeAvriting by a voluntary lady teacher at the Montreal General Hospital while he was receiving medical attention. As soon as his hospital treatment was finished he was sent to the School for the Blind in Halifax, where he is learning to be a masseur. The third man is still receiving medical care every day and will go to the School for the Blind in ^Montreal when his wounds are healed. Vocational re-education in Montreal has not been started vigourously as yet, bec'ause the medical organization of this unit is not yet completed. Questionnaire Be Occupations ov Convalescent Soldiers, Savard Park Convalescent Hospital, Quebec, Que. A questionnaire was submitted to 20 men out of about 50 patients at the Savard Park Convalescent Home on March 8, 9 and 10, 1917. The men were selected at random. These men had had an opportunity of taking agricultural instruction at the home, and 14 out of the 20 had attended this class. The questions are given and the replies summarized as far as possible: — • Questions. -^ Answers. 1. Are you satisfied with the treatment that has Yes. No. Qualified. been accorded you by the MiUtary Hospi- 20 None. None. tals Commission? 2. (a) What was your occupation before Enlist- Baker, 1. menf Bank Manager, 1. Modeller. 1. Bricklayer, 1. R. R. Yardman, 1. - Bushman, 1. Shoemaker, 1. Cheesemaker, 1. .Spinner, 1. Decorator, 1. Switchman, 1. Farmer, 4. Tailor, 1. Fish curer, 1. Teamster, 1. Saw Setter, 1. Tinsmith, 1. (b) Do vou intend to return to it? Yes. No. Uncertain. 55% 50% 15% (c) If not, why? 7 10 3 All the four farmers intend to return to their farms. Think themselves unfit. 7 Wants change. }. (o) Are you taking any vocational train- Yes. No. ing at present? 17 3 (b) What subjects? French. English. Arithmetic. Shorthand and Typewriting. S 10 4 8 Italian. Book-keeping. Agriculture. 13 14 4. (a) Is there any other kind of training you No. Yes. would like to take up? 19 1 (b) What subjects? One wishes to take carpentry. RECEPTIOy, TREATMENT AXD RE-EDUCATIOX 621 Qlestionxaire Re Occupation of Convalescent Soldiers^ etc. — Continued. Questions. Answers. 5. (a) Did you every work on a farm? Yes. Period. No. .").■)% J to 25 years. 4.i% 11 Average 11 years. 9 (b) What kind of work did you do? General. 11 (c) For yourself or for hire? For self For hire. 9 2 6. Would you be willing to take some training Yes. No. Uncertain. in agriculture to prepare you for farming? 25% 65% 10% 5 13 2 Of the four farmers who intend to go back on the farm three wanted no more training. 7. If the Government were to assist you to pro- Yes. No. cure a farm would you take it up and 25% 45% work on it? 5 9 ' Would take but would not work on it, 2. Has one, 4. 8. (a) Would you then make farming your life work? (b) If not what would be your object in tak-One man said "he could have the farm worked ing up the farm? . for him," and another "to secure land for his children." Yes. No. Uncertain. 40% 50% 5 10 2. MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS- Committee Room, No. 129, Windsor Hotel, Montreal, Thursday, ^kfarch 15, 1917. The Committee met at 10.15 o'clock A.M., the Chairman, Sir Herbert Ames, presidinff. ^Ii'.MBKKs Presknt: Sir Herbert Ames, Chairman. Messieurs: Bennett, Marcil, McCurdy, Middlebro, Murphy, Pardee, Ross (Middlesex), and Sutherland, of the Commons Committee; Bri<>adier-General !^^ason and Senator Daniel of the Senate Committee. The Minutes of the Proceedings of March 2nd were read and adopted. The Secretary was instructed to read the communications received from Lt.-Col. MacTnnes, relating to the number of disabled men, Class " E," in England, which was ordered printed; also from Mayor Church, Toronto, relating to names of persons who might give evidence before the Committee in the Inquiry to be made at Toronto, and from Mr. Littlejohn, City Clerk of Toronto, relating to Committee accommoda- tions at the Toronto City Hall. The Committee then proceeded to consider the evidence given by General Wilson, Officer Commanding M.D. No. 4; Colonel F. S. Patch, M.H., C.A.M.C, A.D.M.S.; Lt.-Col. Clarence F. Smith; Dr. F. J. Shepherd; Mr. A. R. Doble; Lt.-Col. A. Mac- kenzie Forbes; Dr. Harrison; Dr. Byers; Trooper R. Y. Brown; Mrs. Busteed, and Mrs. W. Rutherford. During the proceedings papers were submitted by Major- General Wilson and Trooper R. V. Brown, which were ordered printed. MOTIONS : :Mr. Middlebro moved, seconded by Mr. Murphy, that the Secretary comnmnicate with the following persons, requesting them to appear before the Committee at Toronto City Hall, during the meeting commencing Tuesday, March 20th, to give evidence relating to the reception, treatment, care, training and re-education of the wounded, disabled, and convalescent returned soldiers: — Major-General W. A. Logic, Officer Commanding Mil. Dist. No. 2. Colonel F. W. Marlcvw, M.D., A.D.M.S., M. D. No. 2.— Recalled. Mr. W. K. George. Military Hospitals Commission, Toronto. ;Mr. Lloyd Harris, Military Hospitals Commission, Brantford. Hon. W. D. McPherson, Chairman, Soldiers' Aid Commission of Ontario. Hon. G. Howard Ferguson, Minister of Crown Lands for Ontario. Major Munn, M.D., Chief Medical Officer, M.H.C., Toronto. Mr. T. J. LeCras, Supt., Artificial Limb Institute, Toronto. Dr. Captain Farrar, Alienist, Toronto. Mayor T. L. Church, City of Toronto. Sgt.-Major J. Rowe Whitton, Mr. W. E. Turley, Mr. A. E. Lowery. and :Mr. L. E. Lowman, Representatives of Returned Soldiers' Associations, Toronto and Wood- stock. Mr. Charles H. Crocker, Pensions Board Branch, Toronto. Mr. W. W. Nichol, General Vocational Officer for Ontario. 623 624 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETURNED SOLDIERS Messrs. John McRae, Albert Pearcc, F. W. Law, Representatives of Returned Soldiers' Associations, Winnipeg. Mr. G. Harmon Jones, Soldiers' Aid Commission, Regina. Private G. H. Herbert, Returned Soldiers' Association, Saskatoon. Mr. H. Stutclibury, Central Provincial Committee, Edmonton. Sgt.-Major John A. Guilfoyle, Private George Wells, Private Harold Hodgson, representing European War Veterans' Association, Calgarj-; Mr. H. W. Hart, Vic- toria, Vice-president Returned Soldiers' Association for the Province of British Columbia; and Mr. J. H. Hill, Secretary, Returned Soldiers' Commission, Victoria, B.C. — which was agreed to. Mr. Bennett moved, seconded by Mr. McCurdy, that Mr. W. Drinnan, of Van- couver, President Returned Soldiers' Association for the Province of British Colum- bia, be invited to appear and give evidence befpre the Committee, at Toronto, on Friday, March 23rd — which was agreed to. The Committee adjourned at 10.25 p.m. until Friday, March 16th, at 10 o'clock A.M. HERBERT B. AMES, V. CLOUTIER, Chairman. - Clerk of the Committee. Committee Room Iso. 129, Windsor Hotel, Montreal, Friday, March 16, 1917. The Committee met at 10.05 a.m., the Chairman, Sir Herbert Ames, presiding. Members present: Sir Herbert Ames, Chairman; Messieurs Bennett, McCurdy, Marcil, Middlebro, Murphy, Pardee and Ross (Middlesex), of the Commons Com- mittee, and Brigadier-General Mason, and Hon. Mr. Daniel, of the Senate Committee. The Chairman read telegrams received from Mr. Baker, of Winnipeg, and Mr. Wilmot, of Brandon, offering to give evidence before the Committee. The Secretary was instructed to ackno^vledge receipt of same. The Committee then proceeded to consider the evidence given by Dr. Thomas Walker, Mr. Charles Robinson, Major L. P. D." Tilley, Mrs. (Rev.) Kuhring, Mr. W. B. MacCoy, Major W. P. Purney, Dr. J. G. Evans, Hon. George A. Simard, Dr. F. H. Sexton, Mr. P. C. Armstrong, of the Dominion Bridge Company, Captain H. S. Dun- stan Grey, Mrs. Williamson Ross, Sgt.-Major Xapoleon Marion, of the 22nd Battalion, Major D. D. McTaggart, M.D., and Major G. E. Hall. During the proceedings papers were submitted by Major Tilley re Land Settlement, to be further considered, and by Mr. W. B. MacCoy, Hon. G. A. Simard and Dr. F. H. Sexton — which were ordered printed. The Committee then adjourned, to meet at Toronto on Tuesday, March 20th. at 10 o'clock a.m. HERBERT B. AMES, V. CLOUTIER, Chairman. C?C)7.- of the Committee. RECEPTION', TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 625 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. City Hall, Cou^'CIL Chamber, Toronto, March 20, 1917. The Committee met at 10.15 a.m.- the Chairman Sir Herbert Ames, presiding. The Chairman : I may say that in preparing a programme for the next four days we have assigned two days to the examination of witnesses from the Province of Ontario, and two days to the examination of Western witnesses. It has been suggested that our first day be occupied mainly in what we might call constructive testimony (that is what is being done by the various agencies) and that to-morrow we hear those who have suggestions or criticisms to offer, particularly from returned soldiers' organizations. On Thursday morning we are fnvited to see the various institutions in Toronto, and cars will be provided for us to do that. On Thursday afternoon we will hear the ^iEanitoba representatives, and on Friday those from the Provinces of Sas- katchewan, Alberta and British Columbia. This morning our programme deals -with those men who are prominent in connection with the work that is being done for returned soldiers in No. 2 District and throughout Ontario. Col. Marlow was requested tu reappear before the Committee at the request of Senator Lougheed, but we have a wire from the Senator that he cannot be here until to-morrow and he asks that the cxaminntion of Col. Marlow be postponed until then. Major-Gencral W. A. Locik, G.O.C, ^lilitary District No. 2, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. You are, I understand, General J^ogie, the General Officer Commanding No. 2 :Military District?— A. Yes. Q. How long have you occupied that post ( — A. I have been acting since the fir?t of January, 1915, I was appointed permanently last June. Q. What are the limits of the District over which you preside? — A. Well, rnughly, it is from Ontariu County on the east 'to Brant County on the west, on the north as far as James Bay. Q. Including North Bay and Sault Ste. jMarie^ — A. Yes, but not Fort Williaiu, which is in Military District No. 10, also the Niagara Peninsula on the south. The details are given in the Militia List at the head of the District. Q. Can you give us the total nnmhor of men who have enlisted in your District? —A. Yes, 91,803. Q. Can you file for the benefit of the Committee a statement showing the number of battalions that have been recruited in this District, the number of men in respect of each battalion who went overseas, and the number of men dropped from each battalion before it went overseas? — A. Yes, I have not that information with me, but will furnish it. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Up to what date wore the 91.80:) men enlisted? — A. This is as of last return, February 28, 1917. By the Chairman: Q. How many men have gone overseas from this District ? — A. 50,920. Q. How many men have you ready to go overseas? — A. 11,813. ■2H277— 40 [Major-General Logic] 626 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. And of the remainder? — A. Struck off 1G,637 from one cause or another. Q. Does that account for the whole 91,803? — A. Yes. Then there is also a difference of 1,G27, an additional number supposed to have been enlisted, bringing the total up to 93,490. But that 1,627 cannot, be accounted for, because, when the troops went to Valeartier the nominal rolls and states were not handed in to this district, and, when they got to Valeartier, a large number of men were struck off, which we did not know about. That accounts for the 1,027, Q. How many men have returne<^ from the other side who went from this dis- trict? — A. I have no record of that, we are not advised. Q. Who would be able' to give us that? — A. The Secretary of the Militia Council through one of the branches. Q. How many men have you in your Special Service Battalion? — A. It is only a company. We have 392 and the distributi]ig of them is shown in the sheet which I will hand in. (See Exhibit Xo. 1.) Q. That sheet. I presume, shows how many are fit for overseas service? — A. Xo, it does not. The Special Service Com]iany is composed of men who are permanently unfit, and who never have been fit. That is up to this time. In future we are to transfer to the Special Service Companies those boys under age who are being returned, until they become of age and fit to go. Q. What are the duties of the Special Service Company? — A. They are detailed in that list which I have handed in. The greatest number are employed as military police, and one large section was employed in looking after the furnaces and stoves at night at the exhibition, which had to be kept alive to preserve the health of the troops. Q. These men are enlisted for overseas service? — A. Some enlisted for that service and some are returned soldiers from overseas. Q. If a man enlisted for overseas service and was subsequently found to be unfit and transferred to one of the Special Service Companies, is he maintained there against his will? — A. Xo — well he is transferred against his will, but, on my repre- senting to the department that there were a number of cases which should be dis- charged for various reasons, I got authority given to me to recommend the discharge of any man I thought should be recommended for discharge. Q. That would be in the case of men with large families who wanted to return to civil life? — A. Of course, each case is considered on its merits. If you are thinking of the Patriotic Fund I think those men are doing good service, and should be paid from the Patriotic Fund. Q. I wanted to make sure whether you retain a man against his will? — A. Xo, there is no man at the present time, as far as I know, being retained for special ser- vice, who does not want to be retained. But I can say if the Patriotic Fund removes their grant there will be a whole lot of them who will not want to stay because they cannot live on the money they get. Q. We are now looking into that ([uestion. Does the Special Service Corps differ in any way from the composite battalion that does home duty? — A. We have nothing like that here. We have no battalion like that; this company h taking the place of such a service battalion. Q. In other districts there are some home service battalions, composite battalions who are enlisted for guard duty '( — A. We have guards on munitions plants, etc., part of which are supplied'by the militia regiments, and for such work as guarding the Welland Canal. Q. They are not eligible for the Patriotic Fund money, as they are not going overseas, and the money is raised for the men who are going overseas? — A. Yes. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. But if you did not have these men as members of the special service corps, would you require to replace them with men from the battalions who are enlisted [Major-General Logie.] liECEI'TIOX, TREATMENT AM) RE-EDl CATION 627 overseas? — A. Exactly, that is the reason it was organized, and it was on the policy of employing men who were not willing to go overseas but who were willing to do something that would relieve other men who were able to go overseas. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. How did you designate these 1,627 men that you referred to a moment ago? — A. It is the balance of men who have enlisted, but who cannot be accounted for because we have no return of their discharge from Yalcartier. Q. Were they supposed to be enlisted here? — A. They were supposed to have left this district when the war broke out for Valcartier, and to be discharged there without any record being kept of them, and presumably they have returned to civil lifi'. to their original homes. Q. And they have been lost? — A. Yes, there is no trace of them. By the Chairman : Q. What agencies to care for the returned men have you in this district? — A. The .Soldiers' Aid Association of the Ontario Government is the most effective agent that I know of. It is a splendid organization, well administered, which very thoughtfully and thoroughly goes into the question of returned soldiers. Q. Do you, as officer commanding the district, feel that the agencies already created flre sufficient and efficient for caring for returned men? — A. I think so. I cannot say as to the future, when the men who are now in hospital are discharged, but I think the expansion of the soldiers' aid will cover any such questions. Q. The medical care of the soldiers of No. 2 district is under whom? — A. It is now, and has been always, under me. There has been some uncertainty about it, but the most recent instructions, I think, are under date of the 15th March; I suppose, perhaps, you have those? Q. No; I want to get that filed? — A. It is a letter from the Adjutant-General. Q. Head that and put it on file, because this is the latest ruling? — A. (Reads the following letter) : — H.Q. 393-8-92-B.G.P. Depautment of Militia axd Defence, Ottaw\\, March 15, 1917. From the Adjutant-General Canadian Militia, To the G.O.C., M.D. No. 2, Toronto, Ont. ■ Re" use of the Canadian Army Medical Corps of the Militia Department by the M.H.C., to deal ivith the care of Invalid Soldiers returning front Overseas. Sir, — I have the honour, by direction, to inform you that the medical services of the ^Military Hospitals Commission in connection with all military hospitals and homes established, or to be established, under the Military Hospitals Commission, will be carried on by the Canadian Army Medical Services of the Department of ^lilitia and Defence. The medical services of all such hospitals and homes will be administered through the usual channels of the Militia Department, with the exception undermentioned: — " When a hospital or home has been decided upon as necessary, by the M.H.C., the medical services, immediately such hospital or home is reported as fit for occupation, to provide the necessary staff to carry on the medical work. The ]\r.H.C. to provide everything except the medical personnel, and, with that exception, to carry on the various services in such establishments (e.g., such services as are under the ^lilitia Department, carried on directly or indirectly by engineer, ordnance, barrack store or supply officers' commissariat 28277— 40J [Major-General Logrie.] 628 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F. RETURNED SOLDIERS as well as technical training and education." And for such services as indicated therein the Military Hospitals Commission will be responsible. Kindly have the A.D.M.S. of your district immediately take action to meet the changed situation, and make the necessary recommendation for such increase of staff in the medical personnel only as may be necessary to meet reciuirements of the military hospitals and convalescent homes provided by the Military Hospitals Commission in M.D. No. 2. Kindly give the above instructions immediate attention so that the matter of the medical personnel to be employed may be given attention without delay I have the honour to be, sir, Your obediei* servant, W. E. HODGINS, Major-General, A/ Adjutant-General. Q. Do I understand that from now on the medical care of returned men is under the Army Medical Corps, and therefore under the officer commanding the district? — A. Yes. Q. Who is your first agent in connection with the medical care of returned men ? —A. The A.D.M.S., Colonel Marlow. Q. Has the Military Hospitals Commission Command been abolished, or does that still exist? — A. It still exists. According to this letter all we have to do is to look after the medical end of it. Q. Does the officer of the Military Hospitals Commission come under your juris- diction? — A. No; that is where we find that there is a certain lack of co-ordination. He does not, but I have in his office what you might call a D.A.D.M.S., in the person of Major Munn, who reports directly to Colonel Marlow, and through him to me. Q. Is Major Munn the connecting link between the Army Medical Corps and the Military Hospitals Commission in your district? — A. Yes. Q. Who is the head of the Military Hospitals Commission in this district? — A. Major Wilson, who went over with the 83rd and has returned. Q. Then I understand that the active treatment of returned soldiers and the medical care of convalescent men coming back from the front both fall under the jurisdiction henceforth of the Army Medical Corps of No. 2 District? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. What is the exact position of Major Munn?— A. Major Munn has no exact position, and that is one slight fault. He was an officer under Colonel Marlow before the Hospitals Commission Command was talked about; we detailed him to the branch called Casualties, to take charge of that, and look after the documents, admin- istration and pay of casualties, whether overseas or home., He organized that branch, and that Casualties Branch, with him in charge of it, was transferred holus bolus to the Hospitals Commission Command whereupon it continued, with the addition of Major Wilson as D unit, and Major Munn was paid and has been paid by the Hospitals Commission Command, but has not yet been taken over by them. Q. He is paid by them? — A. Yes. Q. And under your command? — A. Yes. It is slightly an anomalous position. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex): Q. What is the necessity for the duplication. Was there any necessity for that duplication? — A. Well, there is no duplication now. No matter how you put it, if you still keep up the Hospitals Commission Command Q. What is the necessity for keeping it up? — A. I do not propose to enter into that. That is a matter as to which I cannot speak. If you ask me. I really think the Hospitals Oominissinn Command is a good thing, because it has a free hand as far as housing, feeding, vocational training, etc., are concerned. [Major-General Logie.] liECEFTIOy, TliEATAJKNT AND RE-EDUCATION 629 By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. But the Hospitals Cominissioji is not the Command? — A. The Command gets its funds from the Commission, and there is no red tape about it. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : • Q. Is there any necessity for squandering those funds? Or is it squandering the funds by having that Command? — A. I cannot say about that, but I think that that organization, having a free hand to meet expanding needs, without having the neces- sity of referring everj'thing to headquarters and getting permission to do this and that and the other thing, is a good thing. Q. It is more flexible? — A. Yes, but the medical end of it, owing to the fact tl'.at the soldier is still on duty and on pay, should be, as it is now, run by the Army Medical end, and then the difficulty of co-ordinating has been solved by Col. Marlow's suggestion to have an A. D. M. S. Invalids. Q. That is forming a connecting link? — A. A connecting link at Ottawa, and then he in turn has an A. D. M. S. in the district, who might be Major Munn, and they may co-ordinate through me with Ottawa on the administration side. Q. That is a new creation? — A. Yes, and only necessary because of the Hospitals Commission Command. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Have these officers been seconded ? — A. They never were, but why they never were I cannot say. We were never asked to do it by Ottawa. Ottawa is the author- ity which seconds officers in this district. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Do you think the changes are an improvement on the old system? — A. I tliink they are. I think they work all right if you just link up the administration side with Ottawa. Q. Have you any suggestions to make with a view to improving matters to even a greater extent? — A. No, sir, I cannot say that I have. I have no complaints at present, but I used to get many complaints. Latterly I have had no complaints. The important work — the work of making the man as fit as he can be made under Colonel Marlow's organization — is carried on well. I do not know how that could be further improved. Q. And then 4;he balance of the work, technical training and re-education? — A. Those are matters that should be left to the Commission. Q. You mean the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. Yes, because it does not come within our purview. Q. You think it would be even better to have the matters you spoke of carried out by the !^^ilitary Hospitals Commission than by the department because of the greater elasticity that would result? — A. That is my personal opinion. By the Chairman: Q. You are satisfied with the new arrangements, then? You think they are in the best interests of the returned soldier? — A. I do, sir, but I think there might be more co-ordination iu the way of liaving a D.M.S. Invalids and an A.D.M.S. under him, and so on. Q. It is the intention, if the newspaper reports are to be credited, to have a D.M.S. Invalids at Ottawa. Would he be a new officer? — A. I do not know. I think the man who has had charge of the organization relating to casualities, since we organized it in this district, would ho the natural man to be the A.D.M.S. Invalids in this district. [Major-General Logle.] 630 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETUItNED SOLDIERS By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. You said the changes would in your opinion, work out satisfactorily if the administrative side were linked up more closely with Ottawa? — A. Yes. Q. Will you explain ^hat in a little more detail?— A. Each man's case is dealt with by a file. The medical history, the boards and everything else of the kind, are kept with each man's name in a file. Q. Are you speaking now only of the medical side of the case? — A. No, I am speaking of the administrative side of it. I am leaving out the administration of housing, feeding, clothing and re-education, that is all left out. I am only speaking now of the military end, which we think should be linked up a little better. That man's file has to be physically keiit somewhere. It is naturally kept where the man is, in Spadina Hospital, or whatever institution he is in, and it is kept in what is called a Central Registry, so that when you ask for John Smith's file it may be turned up and ascertained what is the matter with John Smith. That registry is in the Hospitals Commission command. We are several miles away. Now, Ottawa asks us what i> the matter with John Smith, his relatives are inquiring how he is getting on. Then I have to send up to the- Hospitals Commission Command for the file in order to be able to answer that letter. You see, therefore, that we are held responsible by Ottawa for that man's progress towards health and for reporting upon his case, the informa- tion concerning which is in that file, a considerable distance away, thus causing some delay. By The Chairman: ^ Q. Where is Major Wilson's headquarters? — A. No. 7 Queen's Park, which is ui> near the Parliament Buildings. Q.How far is that away? — A. It is from three to three and one half miles from the Exhibition Grounds. Q. And you have to send a distance of three miles to get the file in question? — A. Yes. There is a lack of co-ordination in the way I have explained, and we would like to see it remedied. Now, Ottawa holds me responsible for the safe-keeping of those files, and to see that they do not get lost. Well, I cannot really be responsible unles- I have the custody of and the control over them. Q. You are speaking always of returned soldiers? — A. Yes. The other files, of course, are in our own central registry. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. You say there is a lack of co-ordination because these files Sre not under your custody. Are they supposed to be under your charge? — ^A. They are supposed to be, "^ officially, but they are not actually. If there were a central administrative building, which we have not got, and if that building were in close physical touch with the office of the M.H.C.C. and our medical man in the building with his files, as it might be at the Technical School on College Street, which has been offered to us by the Board of Education, with 7 Queen's Park, which is quite near, we could send an orderly to and fro with that file as needed and so secure the necessary co-ordination. Q. It would be a sort of clearing house between the two ? — A. Yes. Q. If a soldier is sent to an ordinary hospital, would not his file accompany him to the hospital? — A. No, it would not accompany him- but his medical history sheet would. His file would be in our central registry. You see 'we keep physical possession of the files relating to him. By Hon, Mr. Daniel: Q. If there were a large Military Hospital, containing a large number of patients, would not the man's file go with him when he entered that institution? — A. It should, but in that case the man should be under our own medical officer. [Major-General Logie.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AXD RE-EDVVATION 631 Q. That leads me to another point : How is the discipline of the Military Hospital? conducted? Are they under the control of the Military Hospitals Command or is there a medical officer in charge? — A. A M.H.C.C. Hospital would be under the charge of the officer commanding the Unit, Major Wilson, who is not a ^[cdical Officer. Q. What do you mean by the Unit, a Hospital Unit? — A. You are speaking now of men in Military Hospitals? Q. Yes? — A. The man in the Military Hospital is under the King's regulations and so comes under the Officer Commanding that Hospital. If he commits any offence ho has to be reported to his own Commanding Officer for punishment. Q. What I want to get at is this: Who commands the Hospital, the Military Medical Officer, or is there some special Military Officer detailed^ — A. There is a hiatus there which I am trying to have remedied. Q. Then there is something to be looked after? — A. Yes. Ordinarily when a man goes to hospital and commits an offence, that offence is noted and he is sent back for punishment when he is well to his own Commanding Officer; but there are a num- ber of cases, such as venereal cases, in this district- who become obstreperous; I have applied to Ottawa to pass a _ regulation under the War Measures Act, giving the Commanding Officer of the Base Hospital the powers of a Commanding Officer, so as to deal with these unruly cases. By the Chairman: Q. I suppose we can procure from ^lajor Wilson evidence as to the methods of discipline he employs throughout the hospitals in connection with the convalescent men. When disciplinary measures are needed Major Wilson is the one to apply them? -A. Yes. Q. I suppose we can secure evidence from Major Wilson as to the methods of discipline employed throughout the hospitals? — A. That is another point. The Senator's question was directed towards the military hospitals. Q. But in regard to the disciplinary measures necessary for invalids, ^fajor Wilson will speak of them? — A. Yes. By Mr. Middlehro: Q, I notice that you have enlisted in this district up to the 2Sth of February in round numbers 92,000 men, and of the 92,000 you have struck off 10,G3T. Have you a classification showing the reasons why these men were struck off^ — A. Xo, sir, we have not. It could be done to some extent, but not wholly. By the Chairman: Q. The Committee would like to know how many of these men were medically unfit having passed the preliminary examination and being subsequently discharged? — A. 1 could not say ; I would not like to say without looking it up. But I would say that a very large proportion were medically unfit. By Mr. Pardee: Q. They never left hero? — A. When they were struck ort". By Mr. Middlehro: Q. The sixteen thousand odd had been passed as medically fit in the first instance? — A. Yes. There are causes. A man used to be discharged quite frequently on the application of his people before the regulations were made stricter. He also might be discharged because he was not likely to become an efficient soldier. He also might be discharged because he was incorrigible or undesirable. Again, he might be struck off because he was mediAilly unfit. Q. Could you put in a memorandum showing the number struck off for these various causes? — A. I can try. I do not know whether I can do it with any accuracy. [Major-General Logic] 632 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. The Committee would like to secure, if possiblo, a statement showing the number struck off because medically unfit, and any analysis that might be possible as to the reasons in other eases. — A. I am not sure that statistics have been kept for a sufficiently long period to furnish complete information. Q. Will you file it if you can?— A. I will. By Brig. -Gen. Mason: Q. Could you give the length of time a man was in service before being struck off? — A. It would mean going through the sixteen thousand names, which would be an intolerable task for the staff we have. But I could get more help probably. Q. It is possible that a man might develop some ailment after enlisting ?— A. That is quite frequent, sir. It is claimed by the medical men that a man might appear perfectly well when he is examined originally, but that ailments will develop during training, such as hernia. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Tuberculosis? — A. Yes, concealed hernia, flat feet chiefly, and things of that kind, which would not be brought out or discovered by the doctor with reasonable care in the examination. By Brig. -Gen. Mason: Q. Would that apply to many of the men struck off?^ — A. Yes, sir, I think the large bulk have really broken" down in service training. By the Chairman: Q. Is not the medical examination to-day very much more strict than it was a year ago? — A. Yes. Q. As a result, you have fewer men discharged as medically unfit after enlist- ment? — A. We have hardly had time to judge that, it has not been in force long enough. Q. What procedure is followed now when a man enlists towards establishing his medical fitness? — A. He is not enlisted until he is passed by the board at the mobiliza- tion centre. Q. What examination does he undergo, supposing he enlisted in Owen Sound? —A. At first, the instructions from Headquarters were not quite clear, so after consultation with my staff, I decided that a man when he presented himself for enlist- ment would sign the ordinary enlistment form without the medical history sheet and take that with him to the mobilization centre. At the mobilization centre he is examined by the board composed of the best men that can be got in that vicinity. If he passes the board for any class, he is drafted into that particular unit, such as "infantry or army service, or some less strict class. If he is not fit for any class, he is not attested at all but sent back with a number of days' pay and his railway fare, back to his home. He is never enlisted. We only get the men actually attested fit by that board. After that, when they are passed fit, they are again examined by the medical officer in their own unit. By Mr. Pardee: , Q. Before getting their uniform? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. How are they sworn in? — A. They are sworn in at the mobilization centre into the C.E.F., and posted to a particular unit. [Major-General Logic] RECEPTIOy, THE ALU EXT AXD KE-EDiCATION 633 Q. Before they are examined? — A. Xo, sir. They come from their localities to the mobilization centre where they are examined. If they pass they are sworn into the C.E.F.. Q. After passing? — A. Yes. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex): Q. Is that the present practice? — A. Yes. Q. When was it adopted? — A. In this district, about the first of February. By the Chairman : Q. I have an attestation paper here in which there is printed in the margin in red ink four questions as follows: — 13. Have you ever been discharged from any branch of His Majesty's forces as medicaily unfit ? 14. If so, what was the nature of the disability? 15. Have you ever offered to serve in any branch of His Majesty's forces and been rejected? 16. If so, what was the reason? How long have these four additional questions been required of men who come up for attestation? — A. I could not say offhand, perhaps Colonel Marlow could say when these came into effect. Col. F. W. Marlow : I am sorry I could not say. The Witness: I think it was last fall, sir. By the Chairman: Q. Within the last six months, at all events, those questions are being answered by every recruit? — A. They should be, they must be. Q. What is done where a recruit answers them falsely, and it is afterwards established that they are false? — A. If we know of it, he may be prosecuted. No, there is nothing can be done with him. The Judge Advocate General has held that the answers to those questions do not form part of the man's attestation, and that if he lies about it as much as he likes, there is nothing to be done to him. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What do they put the questions on the paper for? — A. Well, this form of (juestion is based on the attestation paper in Great Britain. On attestation in Knglaud, as I understand it, those questions were asked so that a man would not be entrapped into enlisting without having everything put before him, but the answers to these questions, if false do not form a part of his attestation, and he could not be prosecuted for a false answer to the attestation. That is the way I understand the ruling is now. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. There is really nothing to prevent a man enlisting several times? — A. If he an:^\vers these questions truly, yes. Q. But if he does not? — A. The board does not find it out. Q. Have you reason to think that that is done frequently? — A. I think that a good many men went up, repeaters, went up again and again. Q. As many as three times? — A. Well, several times, because I think they really wanted to serve. It was not that any dishonesty was intended, and they did so in a great number of cases for reasons very creditable to themselves. Q. So the sixteen thousand might not represent that many individual cases? — A. Oh, no, it might not. Q. There might be a great many duplications? — A. There are. I have not the slightest doubt of that. [Major-General Logie.] 634 SPEC/AL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.-RETURXED SOLDIERS By Mr. Middlehro: Q. In tlie same way, there may be many repeaters in the ninety-two thousand men comprising the total enlistment? — A. Well, there may be some. There is no question about the men we have sent over, or about tlie men we have still here. The first contingent, there is some trouble about that. By the Chairman: Q. In the ninety- two thousand enlistments you may have men who have enlisted two or three times and who have been discharged and who have enlisted again at some other point? — A. They would come under the 93,490, the total. Q. But do I understand from you that really these statements are of no value? — A. That is my present understanding of the ruling of the Judge Advocate General. Q. There is a note at the bottom of the attestation paper: Attention is drawn to the fact that any person making a false answer to any of the above questions is liable to a penalty of six months' imprisonment? — A. Yes, I understand that under the War Measures Act the answers to some questions are made the subject of penalty, and the answers to others are not. We had a case the other day in which the original attestation form did not contain the words " and inoculated " in question 8, which reads: "Are you 'willing to be vaccinated, or revaccinated, and inoculated?" We called attention to the fact that when a man enlisted he refused to be inoculated. A case arose recently in which a man refused inoculation, after he had signed this attest- ation paper. We had him up on the charge of making a false attestation, and the Judge Advocate General ruled that there was no compulsion. Q. But supposing that a man, a young recruit, to-day fills out that paper with clauses 13, 14, 15 and 16 in it, can he not be punished for false attestation if he after- wards refuses? — A. My understanding is that he cannot, that the ruling of the Judge Advocate General is that he cannot; I may be wrong, and I can put it up to him again officially. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. A man might swear to-day : " I am willing to be vaccinated or revaccinated and inoculated," and he might be telling the truth in saying so, but when the time comes he says : " I am not willing, now, to be inoculated," and he 'would not be perjur- ing himself? — A. No, By the Chairman: Q. I can see how you could not hold a recruit when he signed the attestation paper without this question in it, but when he signed the paper, to-day, with these four questions in it could he not be punished? — A. My understanding is that the whole of these questions to be put to a man before his attestation do not form part of the man's attestation, and, unless there is some enactment which I am not aware of, the Judge Advocate, as I understand it, rules that a false answer to those questions does iiot hold the man. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Was that a general ruling, or 'was it given in a specific case? — A. In a specific case. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. The idea of putting these questions is to guard any unfit man from coming in? — A. Certainly, and that the answers to them should render the man liable if he made a misstatement. I may be mistaken as to the ruling of the Judge Advocate General. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. If it did not render the man liable, do you think it should ? — A. Most decidedly 60. In fact, men have been prosecuted and convicted under that in this district. [Major-General Logic] KECEI'TIOS. TRKA'JMEyr AM) RE-EDUCATION 635 By Mr. Middlehro: Q. The question should be to this effect : not " Are you willing to be inoculated or vaccinated now?" hut, " Will you be willing to be inoculated or vaccinated when the time comes?" — A. Exactly. B)i Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Are not these questions on just the same basis as those asked an applicant for insurance; they are very similar in the case of an applicant for insurance, and if he answers them wrongly it throws out the whole insurance. It appears to me to be something like a legal document, is not that what it is? — A. Yes, T would have thought that it is, and it is vital that punishment should be provided for false answers. By the (Jhairman : Q. You said in your evidence a moment ago that the separation of the various departments was a matter which, here in Toronto, caused a waste of energy. Do 1 understand you to advocate that there should be a central building here in Toronto, where all the various departments are under the one roof, so that the interchange necessary between them can be facilitated? — A. Yes, that is what I recommend, and that was the case before the war. Q. What would you put in that building — who would you put there? — A. The different branches of the staff. Q. Would you name them? — A. The General Staff, the Administrative Staff, which includes the Medical Department, the Services, and departments, such as the A.D.S. and T., which deal with the Supplies and Transportation, the Engineering Services, etc. Q. Do you think that the Military Hospitals Commission and the Soldier's Aid Association should be there, would it be a benefit to have them all centralized in that building? — A. I do not think so. So far as the military end of it is concerned I think the- need is to co-ordinate a little better the administrative end and the ^fedical Service. Q. Is there any one place here in Toronto where a discharged soldier, who feels that he has a grievance, could go, and make his complaint, so that he would know in what department it falls and feel assured that his matter will come before the right party? — A. I have announced again and again that if any soldier had a grievance and communicated with me it would be attended to. Q. Returned soldier, or otherwise, discharged soldier, or otherwise? — A. Well, with regard to the men who have not yet gone overseas, they should make their com- plaint under the King's Regulations, to their own Commanding Officer. I have told them that if they communicated with me I would see that any complaint was brought to the proper quarters, and I have done that. Q. Is there any official now, whose duty it is to act as an information bureau, where a returned soldier would go and state his case? — A. Discharged, or undis- charged? Q. Both. — A. An undischarged returned soldier would naturally go to Major Wilson, who is the Commanding Officer, a very thoughtful and considerate officer, and his complaint would be attended to properly. Q. Then I understand that any returned man who has not yet been discharged may go to Major Wilson in connection with any grievance that he has? — A. That is his duty. Q. And it is attended to at once? — A. Yes. Q. IIow about the discharged man ?— A. He is a civilian and I do not know what the military has to do with it. Q. Supposing a man is not satisfied with his pension? What unfailing source of help is there to which he can go and seek information ?— A. I have told them that [Major-General Logic.] 636 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.-UlJTURy ED SOLDIERS I will be only too happy, myself, to do anything of that kind. There have not, as a matter of fact, been many complaints — in fact I do not remember any complaint with reference to the pension, that has not been satisfactorily explained except as to the rate as a whole. Q. Has any officer of your department been delegated to hold himself at the disposal of discharged soldiers, who feel that they have grievances and do not know how to get them righted? — A. No, sir, that hardly comes within the scope of the military end of it. The Soldiers' Aid Association I may say, attends to that, and I think ovei-ybody recognizes that they attend to it thoroughly. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. As a matter of fact any such complaint that goes to you, would that be directed to the proper authorities? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. Then I understand there are really at present two bureaux of information for a returned soldier; if he has not been discharged he gets in touch with Major Wilson? -A. Yes. Q. If he has been discharged he gets in touch with the Soldiers' Aid Commission? —A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Do you consider the training here sufficient? I ask that for tliis reason, that T notice a great number of returned soldiers say that they have been sent back rejected in England, they having had the greatest good faith in going, but that they had been rejected in England by reason of the fact that the training here has not been sufficient to bring out any latent defects; what do you say as to that? — A. I cannot answer a question like that, nor what a pian would say when he is sent back. Q. No, but do you consider the training sufficient ? — A. Yes, I consider the train- ing here, so far as we are able to conduct it with the equipment at our disposal- is sufficiently severe. Q. When you say equipment at your disposal, would you want more equipment than you have got now? — A. Well, there is very little, but there are certain things that we have not got, such as gas masks and things like that, which we have not got at our disposal yet. Q. That would not help in the training?— A. Yes, that helps in the training. Q. Not in the development of the man? — A. The man is developed in every way by physical training and bayonet fighting too, some people think far more than he should be. Q. Sufficient to bring out all those latent defects? — A. It is so sufficient that my medical officer thinks it is too severe. Q. Then you do not think there is anything 'in the complaint of those men that have just arrived here now, that they have been rejected in England and not sent across the Channel; you don't think there is anything in that complaint that there is not sufficient training here? — A, If that complaint has been made I do not think that it is correct. Q. You do not think it is correct? — A. No, I do not. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. C-an you speak for other districts in that regard as well as your own? — A. No, I cannot, I only speak for my own. By Mr. Pardee: Q. You think the training here is quite sufficient? — A. I do; I think it is quite sufficient. [Major-General Logie.] RECKI'TIO.X, TRKATMKST AM) RK-EDLCATIOS 637 Q. I was just looking over this, and I would just like you to explain it — I am just asking you for information; I do not just get the point; you stated to the Committee here that the Army Medical Coriis now had charge of those hospitals under that order of March 15 ? — A. No, they have charge of the medical services in the hospital. Q. Only the medical services? — A. That is all. Q. So that matters are left the same as they were before? — A. Except that the medical service is now settled in its channel. Q. Then the man who has charge of the medical service under the Army Medical Corps has not charge of that hospital? — A. No. Q, The discipline is not his? — A. No. Q. Then this order is all surplusage, because that was so before? — A. Well, this order defines how the medical services are to be continued under the ^filitary Hospitals Commission Command, and that is all it does. Q. In the Military Hospitals Command prior to that order who had charge of the services? — A. The same people, but it was not authorized; at least there was an uncer- tainty as to whether the medical services of the ^lilitia Department were to be utilized, or whether an outside service was to be organized to take their place. Q. That is, the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. Yes. That is. now the Army Medical Corps takes charge of the army medical arrangements. Q. Who looks after the disciplinary end of the hospital? — A. The man in charge of the unit, that is Major Wilson. Q. Then ail the military man has to do there is to go and look after the hospital in co-operation with the medical man, that is, the Canadian Army ^fedical Corps? — ■ A. Yes, that is all; that is a very large end of it. By the Chairman : Q. As I understand, all the men you have in the hospitals here are, as it were, in the battalions of which Major Wilson is commanding officer? — A. Yes. Br/ Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Who looks after the discipline of those men? — A. The discipline in the hos- pital is under Major Wilson. On the streets I am responsible. Q. I am talking of the hos])itals only: is ^Fajor Wilson a medical man? — A. No. Q. Does Major Wilson have the infliction and the determination of punishment for a man? — A. Yes, whatever punishment, of course he would not arbitrarily define it without consultation with the medical officer, whether a man is getting punish- ment Qv Supposing a man is brought up. and to be punished, who has the infliction of that punishment? — A. Major Wilson; but he would not punish unless he consulted the medical officer. Q. Before a man is sentenced the medical officer is consulted? — A. Yes, always. Even in the battalion he is. Q. You are not a medical man yourself? — A. No, I am not. Q. Do you think — I am only asking for your opinion — that it is better to have the discipline of a hospital under the medical officer in charge, who has actual charge of those medical cases and knows just the internals of every man there, or do you think it is better to have it under the charge of a military man who is not a medical man? — A. Well, I think that I can hardly answer that, but I may tell you that I have asked the Department at Ottawa to give the powers of a commanding officer to the officer commanding the base hospital here. Q. The officer commanding the base hospital is a medical man ? — A. Yes, so that he may administer if necessary the proper punishment to men who create a breach of discipline; but the King's regulatioji? at the present time are against that so far as military hospitals are concerned. Q. They are always in charge of a non-medical man? — A. No, they are in charge of a medical man, but that medical man has no power to administer punish- [Major-General Logie.] 638 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS nient to men if he is not " commanding officer." You sec, each man in the hospital comes from a unit which has a commanding officer. Well, the medical man, under the King's regulations, cannot give that man 28 days' detention, we will say ; he must report the case to the man's own commanding officer, who in turn will have him up and punisli him when he is ahle to he punished. B)/ the Chairman: Q. That is, in ease of camp cases? — A. The King's regulations cover everything, but I have asked for that to be changed in regard to the Base Hospital here. This is regarding soldiers in the C. E. F., whoever may be in the Base Hospital. Q. You have asked it to be changed to what extent? — A. To give the powers of a commanding officer. The King's regulations do not allow the officer in command of a hospital to punish an individual patient in that hospital; he must be remitted for punishment to his own commanding officer, who may be the commanding officer commanding the 104th, or any other battalion outside, when he is well; but there are certain cases in the hospital now which are unruly, as I said before — venereal cases — and they are very difficult to handle, and they are not nearly so sick that punishment should not be inflicted, and yet they cannot be punished by the officer commanding the hospital; so I have asked Ottawa, after consultation (with the Judge Advocate General, to pass some regulation under the War Measures Act to give an officer com- manding a hospital, such as the base hospital, the same power as a commanding officer, so that if he won't take treatment he can punish him right on the spot. Q. Then that recommendation pretty well carries out your thought? — A. Yes, but that is regarding military hospitals. The Commission is another matter. By the Chairman: Q. That does not refer to returned soldiers? — A. No. Q. Camp cases? — A. Yes; what you call camp cases. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Why should you make any difference between a sick returned soldier and a sick camp man? — A. You don't, really. Q. Don't you in this circumstance? — A. Only because of the organization of the Hospitals Commission. Q. The other is Army Medical Corps? — A. It is a unit of the Army Medical Corps. Q. Then the Hospitals Commission comes along and makes a difference so far as returned men are concerned? — A. Well, only in so far as commanding officers of the unit having the powers of a commanding officer. The only difference is that he is not a medical man. He may not be; he may be. Q. The chances are that he is not ? — A. He is not in this district. Q. So far as your observation has gone would an enlargement of the Army Medical Corps have done the duties quite as well as the appointment of a military hospitals commission? — A. I am not sure. I would not like to say that. Q. You would not like to express an opinion on that? — A. I would not like to say, because, as I said before, it is such a different question, and if it had been left to the Militia Department I would not like to express an opinion as to whether it would have been more efficiently carried on by them than under the present state. Q. As a man having had a great deal of experience in this line of work, do you or do you not think that one authority is absolutely necessary, either the Medical Corps or the Hospitals' Commission? — A. Well, I think tliere should be a definition of authority and responsibility. Q. Do you see any reason why there should be two? — A. Well, that is a matter of policy. I am not prepared to express an opinion on that. Q. You are not prepared to discuss that end of it? — A. No. I have not the knowledge necessary to do it. [Major-General Logic] RECEPTIOy, TREATMEST AXD RE-EDUCATION 639 By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. You really did express an opinion on something very nearly that a little earlier in your examination. You spoke of the Hospitals' Commission being appointed specially for the purpose of looking after these returned soldiers, that there was more flexibility and greater ease in getting the funds ^ — A. Yes. Q. And that there would not be the same delay and that sort of thing?— A. Yes. Q. I think you gave expression to that idea ?— A. Yes, that is my opinion. By Mr. Sutherland : Q. The very fact that the Hospitals' Commission can act immediately rather than have it go through the usual military routine,- with the usual delay, is really the most important feature?— A. T think so— to meet the expanding needs. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Tlie Army Medical Department as' at present constituted, even as enlarged, would hardly be the right kind of department to take up vocational training, for instance? — A. In my personal opinion, I do not think so. Q. It would be sort of exceptional work for them? — A. Yes. Q. And they would naturally have to employ, the same as the Hospitals' Commis- sion have employed, men who were experts in that particular knowledge, who would not be members of the Army Medical Corps? — A. Yes. I would like to file the order for the creation of mobilization centres in this district. That will answer some of your questions. (See Exhibit No. 2 herein.) The Chairman : Sir James Lougheed cannot be here until to-morrow and he specially requested that Mr. Marlow be not examined until "Wednesday; so that we will examine him to-morrow. Witness discharged. ^Ir. W. 7\. CiEORnK. called, sworn, and examined. By the Chairman : Q. You are a member of the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. Yes. Q. What is the area that falls under your jurisdiction ? — A. As a member of the ^Military Hospitals Commission, I imagine the whole Dominion is under it. Q. The ]\rilitarv Hospitals Commission, then, is one for the whole Dominion?— A. Yes. Q. So that your interest not only obtains in respect to this district, but of all Canada, so far as the Military Hospitals Commission is concerned? — A. It does. Q. You naturally, however, are principally familiar with this district? — A. Quite so. Q. Can you tell us briefly what the Military Hospitals Commission here and in this district are endeavouring to do at the present time, and what facilities they have for accomplishing their work? — A. They have endeavoured to provide hospitals properly equipped, and properly staflFed, to look after the returned men. "We began in Toronto first with the old Bishop Straehan School building on College Street, which furnished an accommodation for about 130; when now filled, as it is, fuller than perhaps it should be, I think that there are more than that number. That hospital building has been pretty well equipped with such surgical or special appliances as in the opinion of the medical men were considered of special use and advantage in the treatjuent of the returned invalided soldiers. It is well equipped. It has. for example, a very cfticient X-ray eciuipment, it has a complete optical and dental equipment, it has hydro-therapy, electro-therapy and mechano-therapy equipment, continuous baths, massage, and maiiy appliances for the treatment of men which are not generally found [Mr. W. K. George.] 640 SPECIAL COMMITTEE—C.E.F.—RETURXED .SOLDIERS in other hospitals. After that we took on old Knox College, now known as Spadina, and that has been converted into, I think, a very satisfactory hospital for these men. It is very comfortable, and I think the men are very well satisfied with their surround- ings. Bij 31 r. Middlebro: Q. Ho^v many beds? — A. The acconnnodation in Spadina, as far as my recollec- tion goes, was' supposed to be 230. Again, that is full at present to overflowing, and there are possibly more there to-day than that number. Then, in addition to that, there is a small home, one of the original convalescent homes on North Yonge Street, which was loaned by Mrs. Charles Beatty. That is useful in a modified way for cases of some men who should get out to*a quieter place. We have found as a rule that the small home is not the proper way to treat these men. My contention and recommend- ation has for a long time been that we should only establish large central hospitals sufficient to accommodate a large number of men (possibly 200 as a minimum), so that we would be justified then in putting in proper equipment and maintaining a proper stafP of medical men and others to properly look after these men. In addition to that, in the immediate Toronto district, we are now arranging for the opening of what at present is called the Booth Memorial Home. This is a training college which was being built by the Salvation Army as a memorial to the late General Booth for the training of their own rhen in their own work. It is a very fine building, which I hope you gentlemen will favour with a visit during your stay in the city. It has cost in the neighbourhood of $200,000. That building was turned over to the Hospitals Com- mission in the rough, I mean just the rough ^valls, and is being altered so as to work out into a very Satisfactory hospital for the treatment principally of orthopaedic cases. Q. Which is that?— A. The Booth Memorial. I think the intention is to confine that largely, or to utilize it principally for the treatment of orthopaedic cases, such as amputations, although I understand now that orthopaedic work covers all kinds of bone surgery and allows for a much wider field than we perhaps understood. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. All kinds of deformities ?— A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. Where would the limb factory be? — A. The limb factory, I think, will be moved up into that immediate vicinity. I think you gentleman understand it was decided to establish one limb factory for the present at least, to as far as possible, supply the needs of the men who have suffered the loss of arms or legs. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. All over the Dominion? — A. Yes, and for that purpose a factory has been established in this city, the desire being, of course, to give the men everything that is best in the way of the best limbs that money can turn out. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Is it an entirely new factory, or in operation before? — A. It is an entirely new factory. By the Chairmam: Q. By v>?hom is it operated? — A. By the Commission. By Mr. Middlebro: Q. How many beds will the Booth Memorial provide when you get it finished?— A. I am not certain. I will ask Mr. Riddell to give us that information. Mr. Riddell : Between three and four hundred beds. The Witness: Does that include the pavilions to be built on the grounds. Mr. Riddell: Yes. [Mr. W. K. George.] RECEPTION', TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 641 The Witness: That will include dormitories or wards which will be built on the ground belonging to the main central building. The main building will give the administrative accommodation, it will furnish ample administrative accommodation, much ward accommodation and everything that is required, as you will, I think, see on the occasion of your trip there. By the Chairman: Q. Then you have other hospitals outside Toronto. Which are those? — A. We have taken over the buildings at Whitby which I think will furnish a most ideal oppor- tunity of doing this work, and I think probably every one of this Commission feels without any suggestion on my part that there is something more due to these men than to be turned out of the hospital as soon as such medical or surgical work as can be given to them is finished. I know what I would be like if I had been in the hospital for a period from six months to two years and then when I was cured I was allowed to go out on the street. I would be so thoroughly hospitalized that I would not be much use to go back to civil life. Our idea is that as far as possible — at least it is my idea, and I think it is the idea of every member of the Commission, that as far as possible our institutions for the treatment of these men should not be in the centre of cities, but should be surrounded by or closely adjacent to considerable tracts of land, so that the men could go out on the land, exercise, play and work, and be taught various things which will be of considerable service to them in the future. The conditions in that way at Whitby will be, I think, ideal from many standpoints, because the accommodation will be quite large enough to justify the maintenance of everything that is necessary. It is on the lake shore. There are 600 acres of land, belonging to the property, and the men will have a splendid opportunity to attain not only to health but to physical strength, and their muscle and moral fibre will be built up during the time they are there. Q. You refer to the physical and vocational opportunities? — A. The opportuni- ties for physical and vocational training will be excellent. ,As far as physical train- ing is concerned it has been demonstrated in England to have wonderful curative results. ByUr.Middlehro: Q. Mentally? — A. Good mental as well as muscular results. I might explain, if you will follow me for a moment, the channel through which the wounded men previously travelled in England. They went through the various hospitals and from the hospitals to convalescent homes. They spent some time in the latter institution, and having been built up as far as possible, by that kind of treatment, were then sent to reserve battalions and were supposed to gradually rehabilitate themselves by their surroundings so as to be ready to go back to the front. This, of course, only applies to men whom it was supposed could be re-e§tablished in health and strength for active service. By the Chairman: Q. Were you over in England? — A. Yes, I was over last summer. I understand that the number of men who were returned into active service under this treatment did not run to more than 15 or 18 per cent of the casualties. The method of treat- ment was then changed. The men, after leaving the hospitals, continued to go into convalescent homes, but instead of afterwards going to base battalions or reserve battalions, they went to what were called command depots to undergo physical drill in the open air. This drill began in a very moderate and easy way, gradually being increased day after day until the treatment covered two hours in the morning and two hours in the afternoon of strenuous physical drill. I saw at Plonk's Horten from [Mr. W. K. George.] 642 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS 1,200 to 1,500 men undergoing drill who looked more like athletes than returned invalids I was told that as a result of this treatment the number of casualties returning to active service had grown from 15 to 18 per cent to something like 76 per cent. I do not want to assume responsibility of these figures, but I believe investigation will show that they are largely Lome out by facts. I now come to Guelph. Q. Before you leave Whitby, let me ask you what has been done to make life attractive, particularly for single men, there? — A. I do not know that we have gone far enough yet in our experience at Whitby to give a very definite answer to that question. I think perhaps Mr. Laidlaw can give you more valuable information upon that point because he is not only a member of the Soldiers' Aid Commission but has also a country home near Whitby. I may say, however, that I saw the Quartermaster a few nights ago, and he reported to me that the men were very happy and very well pleased. Q. What is the provision for a married man, who might prefer to be near his wife and family, if he were a resident of Toronto, at Whitby? — A. I cannot give a definite answer to that question. The cliarge has been made that we were sending these men away from their homes. I suppose if that argument were carried to its logical conclusion we would have to keep every returned soldier in his own home. We would have to provide each man with proper medical treatment and nursing in his own home, which, of course, is impossible ; and I do not know any reason why a Toronto man should not be sent to Whitby equally as well as for instance a man from Gait. We cannot establish proper places in every little centre to look after these men. All we can do is to get them as near their homes as the location of the large centre which has been established for their treatment will permit. Q. Are you of opinion that the married man, for example, can be better equipped for civil life at an institution like that at Whitby than if he were an out patient here in Toronto? — A. In reply to that question. Sir Herbert, I am inclined to answer in the affirmative as far as regards the great majority of cases. Q. You were going to discuss the Guelph institution when I interrupted you? — A. The next place after Whitby is Guelph, which will furnish accommodation in the early stages for something like 500 or 600 patients. Q. Will those be general convalescents? — A. They will be, I think, if our theory woi'ks out. It will be for the accommodation of the men who are more nearly ready to graduate into civil life than the inmates of any other institutions which we have in this district. For this reason, I tihink perhaps Guelph is even more ideal than Whitby. Guelph has 800 acres of land, it is situated adjacent to the Agricultural College; it has in its own buildings eight or ten, perhaps more, perhaps less, I am not certain on that point, commercial factories, which the Ontario Government has been operating in the past and will continue to operate in the future. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. How many factories? — A. Eight or ten commercial factories, woodworking, weaving, making furniture, etc, etc. Q. Which have been used by the prisoners? — ^A. Yes, in the past. A staff of competent expert men will continue to operate these on behalf, as I understand it, of the Ontario Government, because that Government counts on the output of these fac- tories to supply the various institutions throughout this province with many of the various articles which they require. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Will the prisoners be working there as well? — A. There will be no prisoners. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. What will be done with the output? — A. The output will go to the various institutions under provincial control. The buildings at Guelph will be evacuated by [Mr. W. K. George.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 643 the prisoners long before we put our men in. That would be the practical course. The factories will continue running, as I understand it, and our men will have access To them, so that for instance, ten or twelve could be put in the furniture factory, if they desired to follow that occupation; four or five men in the foundry, and so on in each case working under the supervision of skilled workmen. Then, being adjacent to the Agricultural College By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Is it the intention that the returned soldiers will profit by their labour in these factories? — A. I think that is the intention, Mr. Ross. How far that has been worked out I cannot say, and I would not like to say that it is the intention at the pre- sent moment. It is a theory entirely yet in that point. That institution, being as it is adjacent to the Agricultural College will furnish ideal opportunities for these men while they are being educated or instructed in many things that pertain to agri- culture I am satisfied that the professors and senior students will both be more than glad to give lectures to those men on poultry raising, bee keeping, dairying, market gardening, and anything that will help to make these men more competent when they go back into civil life. I think that there we are going to have almost an ideal possibility for the treatment of the men. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. It is proposed to graduate them from Whitby to Guelph and then into civil life?— A. That again is the theory, that is the desire; how far it will work out in practice time will tell. I do not see why it should not. By Mr. Pardee: Q. We have heard' a good deal about the men wanting to go into market garden- ing, is "the Commission taking any special steps towards this end with the 800 acres at Guelph and the GOO acres at Whitby which are available? — A. It is intended cer- tainly that they shall, Mr. Pardee, at both these institutions where the area is more than ample for all they will require. Q. Have you sufficient instruction there? — A. It would be better to ask Mr. Nichol to give full information about that. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. Were the whole of the resources of these institutions placed at the disposal of the commission? — A. Practically, I believe the entire institutions, the grounds and all. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. You said that those factories at Guelph would continue to be used for prisoners? — A, Not by prisoners, but by competent workmen. We will certainly not mix our men with prisoners. By the Chairman: Q. At Whitby there is no mixing at all as between insane civil patients formerly at Whitby and returned soldiers; they are entirely in another part of the grounds? — A. Certainly, that will be so. Q. At Guelph, there is no contact whatever between the soldiers and the prison- ers? — A. The prisoners will be removed entirely as I understand it, and everything that gives a prison aspect to any part of the buildings (which I believe are magnificent buildings), we are trying to eliminate. For instance, let me make it clear by saying that they have cells in one portion of the buildings. These will not be used; I do not think we will even have that portion open. Q. So that the rather hasty criticism that we are sending our returned soldiers to insane asylums and prisons is absolutely without foundation and fact? — A. I think 60, emphatically so. rMr. W. K. George.] 2S2T7-41i 644 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. What other institutions are there in this part of Ontario under the Military Hospitals Commission?— A. There is one at Hamilton, in fact, two. There is the Victoria Home which was furnished and turned over to the Commission by Stanley Mills and his brothers ; and there is Mrs. Crerar's. Both of these started in the earlier days (Mrs. Crerar's particularly so), and there the accommodation is limited. I do not think that Mrs. Crerar has accommodation for more than eight or ten, and the Victoria Home has accommodation for perhaps thirty-five or forty. Q. Do you think these very email homes are desirable? — A. I do not. Q. Is it your intention to continue that policy?— A. We certainly will not con- tinue the policy of taking on any more. Just how soon we could throw back a gift into the hands of the giver, I am not prepared to say. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. How many beds are there in those homes ?— A. In the Mills home, about 35. At the beginning everybody thought that was the proper thing to do, the size of the problem was not appreciated at all, and it was supposed that a home here and there would be all that was necessary; and homes all over the country were oifered, as you gentlemen know, and a few were accepted and work on them undertaken. But for a long time now these offers have been politely refused. I have had scores of them. By the Chairman: Q. What do you consider the ideal number to a home? — A. Not less than 200, I should say offhand. That, of course, is open to argument. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. How would that be, Mr. George, in the case of the smaller provinces, where there will not be such a large number of returned convalescents ? Would you advocate sending the soldiers from these small homes up to these larger centres? — A. No, except for special cases requiring special treatment. Q. Such as orthopaedic cases? — A. Orthopaedic and special nerve treatment, or something that required appliances or specialists to do the work. I would certainly keep the men as near their homes as possible. Q. Of course, when you advocate using very large institutions I do not know but what you are perfectly correct. It might interfere with localities where there were not such a large number? — A. It certainly might, and I should say that other institutions of a smaller size would have to be established. Of course, you are apt to have your judgment coloured by the local surroundings, and I am thinking of the larger numbers we have here to deal with. By the Chairman: Q. Throughout your District, have you sufficient accommodation for all the con- valescent soldiers at present? — A. I do not think, Sir Herbert, let me premise that by saying I am not absolutely up to the minute on what our total accommodation i> in this immediate District. But I do not think that we have a bed for every man iu this District who is still under hospital treatment. Q. That is, you have a large number of out-patients? — A. There are out- patients. Q. If you had all in the in-hospital accommodation that you desired, could you call in the out-patients ? I mean, have you out-patients at the present moment because you have not sufficient in-hospital accommodation? — A. I think that is possibly so, but I would like to point out, in view of many of the newspaper statements that have been made, in which the public were rather led to the idea that these men were standing on the corners of the streets waiting for a chance to get into a bed, that, a? a matter of fact, these men are all (speaking generally) where they would rather bo. than be in hospital. They are at their homes, and they are getting hospital treat- [Mr. W. K. George.] RECKPriO'S\ TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 645 ment. I do not say that that is the ideal way of handling the situation, but I do say that the men have not been suffering any hardship, so far as they themselves are con- cerned, owing to the temporary lack of accommodation on the part of the hospitals. Q, Except that in your judgment they have received less than the best? — A. So far as the treatment goes, yes. I do not think that it is the ideal way. I have always felt that the " out " treatment is not the proper one, because, outside of the fact that it is almost impossible to supervise these men and. to see that they get their proper medical treatment, the home atmosphere which would be natural to every one of us is not the one best calculated to build the men up in fibre and send them back to civil life. We would all make a hero of him ; that lad has suffered, and, naturally, if he were a member of our family, "we would be all inclined to pet and coddle him, and that perhaps is not the quickest way of getting him back into the mental attitude which will enable him to again take his place in civil life. Q. What steps are being taken to secure additional accommodation? — A. Mr. Armstrong, who is coming before you, will be able to give you much more concrete information with regard to the situation, and to tell you just what is being done for the purpose of increasing the actual bed accommodation for this District, than I can. Q. Who is Mr. Armstrong? — A. Ho is the Director of the Military Hospitals Commission. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. How many out-patients are there, can you tell us that? — A. No, I cannot. Q. Vrould it go into several hundred? — A. I am not sure, although I should say it would. Q. Arc these men anxious themselves to go into the regular hospitals? — A. I do not think they are. Not more than a small percentage of them are anxious to get into tiie hospitals. I do not think that even a majority of them who are now in the hos- pitals, but would, if given their choice, go to their homes. I think tliat their treat- ment of .out-patients is not actually the best, nor is it as efficient as it would be if they were continually under the eye of the medical authorities, as they would be if in the hospital. Q. And therefore it is not in the public interest, of course? — A. Ultimately it is not. By the Chairman: Q. In tlie treatment of soldiers, do you separate overseas from camp men? — A. I do not think so. Sir Herbert, no. Q. Do you allow the camp men into the same hospitals as the overseas men? — A. We have had to put them in the same hospitals. Q. Have you camp men in the Knox Hospitals and in the Beattie Home? — A. I would not say at the moment in the Beattie Home. Perhaps I might ask Mr. Riddell again, if you will permit me. ^fr. Riddle : Yes, they are all treated alike. By the Chairman: Q. Ts there not a large military hospital hei*e? — A. Yes. Q. Is it fall?— A. I do not know. Q. Wliy :ire the camp men not sent to the base hospital instead of to yours ^- A. The only camp men sent to our hospitals are those assigned to us for treatment and who c-nnno^, be treated in the other hospitals. Q. But if you are so short of accommodation that you have to allow of returned soldiers to be out-patients, why do you take camp men into your hospitals, when there is a large hospital under the Military authorities, which is only partly filled? — A. I think that. Sir Herbert, is a very fair question, and I am, sorry that T am not able to [Mr. W. K. George.] 646 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—IiETUIty ED SOLDIERS answer it. I think it is a very logical question. I think they are simply sent to us and we have been expected to take them. Q. Have you made any protest against taking camp men? — A. I do not think that we have, we take the returned soldiers and the camp men. Q. I understand that the base hospital is a large institution, with how many beds? —A. 600, I think. Q. Of which, one-half, or less, are occupied? — A. I do not know, 1 have never been in it. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Would the returned soldiers come into the category of camp men? — A. No. Q. You are, I understand, only authorized to deal with returned soldiers? — A. No, with any member of the Expeditionary Force. By the Chairman: Q. Do you find that among, the returned soldiers there is any dissatisfaction with regard to having their accommodation partly taken up by men who have never been overseas? — A. I have never heard any expression of that kind. Q. There is no dissatisfaction about the mixture of the two classes? — A. I have not heard any criticism or any trouble arising from that mixture of late. Perhaps it still exists. In the earlier days there was more or less; I heard rumours of more or less objection. The overseas men thought, and perhaps rightly thought, that they were in a little better class than the men who had not yet gone overseas. Q. And that they were entitled to a little more special consideration? — A. I do not know that they took that attitude, but the man who had been overseas thought that perhaps he was more of a hero, and quite naturally so. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. He had done more for his country? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. Do you have any clearing house, here in Toronto, to which a man goes when he returns from overseas, and are they, at that clearing house, apportioned to the several hospitals according to the difficulty therein? — A. I think I can say yes to that question, there is the receiving hospital. Q. Where is it here? — A. The receiving hospital, if I may use that name, is at Spadina. The men on their arrival in Toronto are taken directly to that Hospital. Q. That is, they come by train directly from Quebec to Toronto and go into the receiving hospital at iSpadina? — A. Yes. Q. Are they segregated there according to their diseases, the tubercular cases to one hospital, shell-shock cases, to another, and the orthopaedic cases to another? Is there any separation of that kind made at that hospital? — A. I would prefer that you ask that question of the Medical Officer of that hospital, who can give you more accu- rate information than I can. Q. That is Major Munn?— A. Yes. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. Have you, at any time, found an insufficiency of facilities at the clearing hos- pital to receive these men when they came? — A. I think I can say no to that question, because these men, with the exception of a few cases who are not in fit physical con- dition, are all sent to their own homes so that they can meet their families and greet their wives and children. Then they report back to the hospitals and receive active treatment. [Mr. W. K. Georpe.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 647 By Brigadier- General Mason: Q. Are the returned men sent in all cases to their own district, no matter where? — A. Generally speaking yes, with this exception, that all the orthopaedic cases are centred in Toronto, and ail the nerve cases, though I am not quite certain, for how wide a district, are centred at Cobourg. Q. There is a distinction, or a division made, according to their ailments? — A. They might require a special kind ofi treatment which does not demand the establish- ment of institutions for the treatment of those specific cases all over the country. They are then centralized at those points where those institutions are established. Witness discharged. Hon. W. D. McPherson, Chairman of the Soldiers' Aid Commission for On- tario, called, sworn and examined : — By the Chairman: Q. You are chairman of the Soldiers' Aid Commission I understand? — A. I am, sir. Q. Created under what authority? — A. Originally by Order in Council of the Province of Ontario, and subsequently by Act of the legislature. Q. And what special work do you undertake to perform? — A. Under the Order in Council our duties were " to take care of and to find employment for members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force who return to Canada during the period of the war, and to assist, advise and co-operate with Military Hospitals Commission and with all provincial or local committees or organizations authorized by this Act, and to do all things which may be incidental and auxiliary to the foregoing. Then at the session of the legislature last year, 1916, the Order in Council was approved by the legislature, and the duties were somewhat extended, and our authority was enlarged not only to deal with soldiers who might return to Canada during the time of the war but also at the conclusion of the war. We also have charge of vocational education in Ontario. Q. Your duties then, relate not merely to the care of the disabled man who comes back from time to time, but also with the larger problem of demobilization? — A. Yes, sir. Q. I think that this committee will only care to hear evidence at the present time regarding the first of those two problems; the other will be taken up latei*. Then what personnel or staff or associates have you in this work? — A. The other members of the commission are Mr. John B. Laidlaw, Mr. Kobert J. Christie, Mr. William Banks, Senior, the Hon. George Gordon, Senator; Mr. K. W. McKay, Mr. W. F. Nickle, K.C., Hon. George Lynch-Staunton, Senator; Mr. E. J. Henderson, Mr. W. L. Best. Q. Do you meet as a committee here from time to time? — A. Yes. Q. Who is your executive ofiicer? — A. Joseph Warwick is the secretary. Q. For the province? — A. For the province. We have now 97 local branches in different parts of the province. Q. And each of those committees, according to local conditions, try to carry out the same aims and objects? — A. Yes, and they are practically in daily communi- cation with us. Q. How many men have come back to this district? — A. 6,115; when we say the district, that is the province of Ontario; our district is the whole province. Q. How many of those men have you located in civil life? — A. 1,487. Q. Have you any analysis showing what disposition has been made of those 1,487? — A. You mean the various classes of employment? Q. Yes? — A. I will supply that record with pleasure. We have records of them in our office. [Honourable W. D. McPherson.] 648 ■ SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. NoAv as t() the difference between G,115 and 1,4-87, how larp:e a percentage repre- sents men who have been discharged from hospitals and are fit for re-employment in civil life? — A. The data I have here shows that the number of men returned from overseas service is 5,400; the number of men discharged before overseas service is 632; the number of men discharged from Imperial Service is 83; total, 6,115. The number of men at present in or out-patients of the Convalescent Homes or hospitals in Ontario is 1,503; the approximate number of men discharged from Convalescent Homes and Hospitals as fit for employment is 4,612. Approximately 1,487 positions have been obtained locally, with an average weekly payment of $16.02, for discharged soldiers in Toronto. The number of men for whom positions have been found locally is 999. Q. In Toronto alone, have you similar figures for the rest of the Commission throughout the Province? — A. We only get returns, some of them fortnightly and some monthly, so that I could not give that precisely. The 1,487 positions that have been found include only Toronto, but we have a regular form of return that comes in from the branches. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Then there are upwards of 3,000 men who have simply gone back into civil life who have not been assisted by your organization? — A. Of those who have been discharged from the military service many have gone back to their former employment ; in other words, they have not made application to us to get them employment. Q. Of your 1,487 positions, how many individuals does that represent? — A. 999. Q. It would mean, then, that it took three positions to satisfy two men? — A. In some instances, when a position has been found for a man and it would turn out either that his strength was not up to the work, or that the work 'was of a class that he was not sufficiently familiar with to give satisfaction to his employer, he might perhaps in a short time come back to us, and we would get him another position. Q. Tou are quite willing to do that? — A. Yes, we do that without the slightest demur. Q. Have you found any men who come back so often that you began to lose con- fidence in their desire to get a job ? — A. We have tried to be as charitable as we could, and we have not come to that conclusion in any case yet. We have exercised a great deal of patience with some of them. Q. As I imderstand, 4,612 have come, and 1,487 or something like that have been found employment in Toronto alone? — A. Yes. Q. What percentage would you say throughout the Province have been found employment, of returned soldiers? — A. That is, capable of taking employment? Q. And whom you have found employment for? — A. You mean, I suppose, capable of taking employment. Q. I don't know whether they are capable, but how many are capable of taking employment, and how many have you placed — 'What percentage? — A. We are not supposed to find employment for any man until he is discharged from military ser- vice; we Avould not interfere with the medical service after he has been returned home. After he has been discharged from military service, or it may be in antici- pation of his discharge, he comes to us to look for employment, and we find about what his capabilities are, and what his desires are, and as far as possible try to meet him in that way; we correspond with possible employers, or look over the applications that we have on our files. Q. But how many have come to you wanting employment? — A. It would be very difficult to answer that question. Q. Then there is no way that we can find out what percentage of soldiers you have got employment for? — A. We can answer you that by giving you an estimate of those whom we deemed to be as yet unemployed, who desired employment. [Honourable W. D. McPherson.] liECEPTlOy, TREATMEyr AND RE-EDUCATION 649 Q. How many is that? — A. Nine in Toronto, and the reports from different branches are that there are no men out of employment. I should say 98 or 99 per cent of the men who desire employment are in employment. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Those 1,487 all refer to Toronto?— A. Yes. Q. You have throughout the province some ninety-i^cvcn branch organizations? — A. Yes. Q. Have you any figures to show what employment has been obtained for returned soldiers outside of Toronto? — A. Yes. Q. Can you give them to us? — A. We can give them, but I have not got them here; we have the data at the office. By the Chairman : Q. Would you be good enough to endeavour to file with the Committee a state- ment showing the total amount of employment secured throughout the entire province for returned soldiers, the numbers placed by your branches as well as in Toronto, and the numbers that have applied? — A. The secretary perhaps will explain what might be the practical difficulty of our getting that down precisely as you have requested it. Mr. Warwick (Secretary) : In the past we have experienced some difficulty in getting reports from our branches, and we have recently appointed a branch inspector, an organizer, whose duty it is to go around visiting branches we have already formed. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. Then, frankly, you cannot give us that information? ^ Mr. Warwick (Secretary): No, I do not say that, but I can get it by communi- cating with the branches. Just at the last meeting of the Commission, held in February, there were messages sent out to all our branches asking them the condition of the men that went through their hands. By the Chairman: Q. Would it not look a little as though some of your branches were only on paper ? — A. No, I do not think it means that at all, only they do not feel pressed in the matter of sending in reports where they do not have any men unemployed. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Can you give us any idea of ho^v many men you have appointed for outside places? Do you know of any? Mr. Warwick : Oh, yes. Q. Can you give us the number, 100 or 200? Mr. Warwick : I should say 95 per cent of the men outside of Toronto have been found employment through the Soldiers' Aid Association. As soon as informatioi comes here I divert it to the branch. Q. Have you any figures to justify that statement, or are you assuming that ti> be the case, from what you have done in Toronto? Mr. Warwick : I derive it from the information the branches send to me. Q. I thought yau said they did not send any information? Mr. Warwick : Oh, no ; I did not say that. The Witness: Oli. no; some of them delayed at first, but down to February 1st we had that information, and we would be glad to place it at your disposal. By the Chairman: Q. Will you file that report to February 1 ? — A. Yes. [Honourable W D. McPherson.] 650 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETUR'S ED SOLDIERS By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Take employment given to returned soldiers east of Toronto and employment given to returned soldiers vs^est of Toronto, can you classify it in that way and give us the information? — A. Yes, we can do that for you. By Mr. Sutherland : Q. How many branches of the Association are there?— A. I would say that the report was that about the middle of February there were some 86 branches of the Asso- ciation, if I remember correctly. This morning the Secretary tells me they have increased to 97. We have an organizing secretary who is on the road all the time, organizing fresh branches wherever we find there are a number of soldiers going to a certain centre; we get a branch organized there upon the theory that the law of average ujll ])ersist. If there are five men in the place and they are increasing it will probably be in tl'C ratio that five bears to the total number who have already come back. Q. You had 86 branches in February? Those were incorporated only a short time? — A. We have been incorporated a year and a half. I would say there has been a steady progress. We started out with 28 or 30, the number of men in these particular localities being larger than in other centres. Then, as men began to come back in larger numbers to some of the other municipalities we deemed it necessary to have a branch there to attend to their wants, and "we kept pace with the work as well as we could. Q. In many places you would not have a branch? — A. In some places we would not have a branch, but we have lists of all the employees and manufacturers, and we communicated direct with them by correspondence. Q. Do many men come back where you have no record of them? — A. No, we have all of them recorded from official records, although there is no obligation on the men themselves to report to us. We make inquiries from Members of Parliament and officials in the various districts, to get the conditions of the various soldiers in their neighbourhood^ and we ask them to notify us if they have any returned soldiers requir- ing attention. Q. There have been quite a few complaints about the people in smaller places, of those in authority not receiving notice of the returned men, and they have come back in quite a number of instances without anyone being aware of their coming? — A. And not in a position to extend a welcome to them? Q. Yes? — A. The method followed out in connection with that is that when a man leaves the discharge depot at Quebec they notify the Secretary of the Military Hospitals Commission at Ottawa and likewise send a telegram to us at Toronto telling us how many men will reach Toronto by such and such a train. Of course they are under the charge of the Military Hospitals Commission. The Soldiers' Aid Com- mission does not have anything to do with them until they are directly in touch with us after their return here. By the Chairman: Q. But when they leave in search of employment and go to rural parts of the province, do you take any steps to prepare for their reception in advance of the men's arrival? — A. If we were requested to do so we would, but we have no means — Q. You have no means to do that? — A. It would not be possible unless the man notified us where he was going. Q. As men are discharged from day to day, you know they are going to be dis- charged? — A. Yes, and we are in constant touch with them, and offer them our ser- vices, but there is no obligation on their part to accept our services, and no obligation on their part to let us know what their movements will be. Q. You take steps to communicate with a man about to be discharged from a convalescent hospital, indicating that your Commission would be willing to help him if he is going back to secure employment? — A. The method that is being followed in [Honourable W. D. McPherson.] . RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 651 that regard is this: when the men come in I go to the train and meet them coming in, and T go to the place where they have an address of welcome, and I explain to them what the Soldiers' Aid Commission has been formed to do and extend a very cordial invitation to them and tell them where our offices are and tell them what we are prepared to do for them, assist them in their correspondence, look after their arrears of pay or to assist them in the settlement of any pension difficulties or anything of that kind and place the services of the staff at their disposal, and also explain to them what provision has been made for vocational training. Q. Is it understood your office is always open and that the secretary in charge may be consulted by any discharged soldier as to any matter relating to him? — A. Yes, and the whole of our organization is placed at their disposal. Then that is fol- lowed up by a formal letter; not only do I make the statement to them verbally, but that is confirmed by a formal letter from our secretary expressly offering the services of our Commission. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What financial aid do you give to outside associations? — A. We l^ave only received requests from very few of them, and the only financial aid we have arranged to give is given in this way: take, for instance, in Hamilton; we offered to finance them to the extent of dollar for dollar, whatever the mvmicipality put up, we would put up out of the provincial fund, dollar for dollar, to form a fund out of which they might make advances to men against arrears of pay, or until their pensions came in, or if they got a position, until their first week's wages came in, to make them a tem- porary loan, it being, of course, understood that the money would be repaid by the man to whom it had been loaned. Q. Do you do anything in the way of actual assistance without requiring any- thing to be put up as security for re-payment? — A. Yes, we have a regular relief fund, derived from voluntary contributions, and the Government have also authorized me in my discretion, to make grants where I think such are necessary. Q. Is that wholly in your discretion? — A. Yes. Q. Not in the discretion of the Commission? — A. No, my personal discretion. Q. That is the only way in which public moneys may be spent? — A. That is the only way which we have found necessary up to the present time. Q. Is there a fund set apart by the province for that purpose? — A. Only on requisition. The amounts are placed as I requisition them, and afterwards for the purposes of audit we send our vouchers to the Provincial Auditor and he passes upon our funds as they are requisitioned. If we send in vouchers for $1,000 he authorizes the issue of another cheque for $1,000 to cover those vouchers. Q. I want to draw your attention to the evidence of Mr. E. R. Cameron, President of the Ottawa Branch of the Soldiers' Aid Commission, who told us during his hear- ing at Ottawa that the Provincial Government would come to the aid of the local Government only after they had exhausted aid from voluntary sources. Such an attitude would reduce the Commission to being a charitable institution. — A. No, I would not say that.. Although, when we do meet with cases that are deserving, where the man would not have eventually the opportunity of repaying, we do make him a grant. Q. Yes, but this is an association, it is not a man we are dealing with? — A. Are you referring to the Ottawa Branch of the Soldiers' Aid Commission ? Q. I am referring to the evidence of Mr. Cameron, President of the Ottawa Branch of the Soldiers' Aid Commission. His association wrote to the Provincial authorities and the effect of the reply was as I have given it. — A, I would prefer to produce the correspondence rather than to accept a version of it. I do not think you are quite correctly informed as to what the correspondence was. Therefore, I shall be very glad to produce the correspondence itself. [Honourable W. D. McPherson.] 652 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RErVRNED SOLDIERS Q. In the event of such rules you would not make a grant out of state funds? — A. We have not made any such grants so far. Q. Why not? — A. There has been no necessity fur it. Q. Has there been no demand made upon you at all for that sort of thing? — A. Ottawa, Hamilton and London have all had conferences, but Ottawa, if I recollect correctly, is the only Branch that has made a positive request for funds. Q. And what was your reply ?— A. What we told them, as in the Hamilton case, was, if the municipality made a grant of $250 we would make a grant of an equal amount, to establish a fund out of which assistance might be available against re-pay- ment by the person to whom the money was loaned. Q. Mr. Cameron was asked (reads) : "As a matter of fact, do not the Ontario Government practically say: ' Until you have about exhausted the last dollar you can raise this way, we will not come to your assistance?' — "A. I do not think it has been put to ns in that way at all — in fact I understand from Mr. Best, who is the Ottawa representa- tive of the Commission in Toronto, that he has been verbally told thtvt where the citizens do not supply the funds necessary for our work the Government will supply them." Is that not about right? — A. K a case arose. Q. I am not asking for a case, this is the Ottawa Branch of the Soldiers' Aid Commission. — A. Would not that still be a case? Q. I beg your pardon. ■ I thought you were going to cite a personal case. — A. If occasion arose we would give consideration to their requirements. By the Chairman: Q. Case by case? — A. Case by case. It is impossible to lay down a rule. You might keep a great deal of money out ; there would be no means ,of passing vouchers, and the public funds would be liable to be misspent here and there. If they made out a case,, I would make representations to the Government, and I am sure the Government would come to their , assistance. Q. Do you not feel that, if you were undertaking work, of such magnitude, to provide care and employment ;for all the soldiers who require it throughout the Pro- vince of Ontario, there ought to be something more definite in the matter of financial support than a sort of an understanding that it will partly come f roni .private subscrip- tions, partly fram municipalities and partly from the Government? — A. Take the case of Ottawa, I do not think any person is more interested in getting employment for the citizen soldiers of Ottawa than Ottawa itself, for they want to retain their population, and they have means for placing their men there; and, as a rule, until a man is dis- charged from military service he is in receipt of his military pay, and if he is dis- abled he has his pension. Then he goes into employment. So it is only to bridge over, so to speak, the time between his discharge from military service and the time he gets military employment that he gets assistance. Q. Yes, but if this is to be a permanent organization and to have an established office and a man giving his whole time to the work, and the necessary staff or person- nel that might be required to deal with the situation in a place the size of Ottawa, where would the funds come from? — A. From the municipality of Ottawa. Q. Supposing they should decline to offer them? — A. Then we should have to con- sider that situation when it arose. Q. Are you not approaching a problem of such magnitude that that question ought to be settled? — A. if that question is likely to arise, it would have arisen in the year arid a half that we have been in operation, but it ha?; not. It would seem to me that Ottawa should finance its own branch. [Honourable W. D. McPherson.] RECEPTIOy, TREATHEXT AND RE-EDUCATION 653 Q. It would seem to me that some definitely well understood policy should be enunciated as to whose duty it was to finance this operation. You say you appeal prac- ticalb' to the benevolent public? — A. No. We have not made any appeals further than in the advertisement which we carry in the newspapers informing the public what we are doing. If we have cases that require relief we say that if any person cares to send in a contribution to make it payable to the order of the Soldiers' Aid Commission, and in every instance the particular application for relief is carefully reported on, and we will give any contributor, if he desires it, information as to the disposition made of his gift. Q. If Mr. Cameron of Ottawa, for instance, should have a special case requiring relief, and he could not reliet'e it with Ottawa funds, wovild your branch at Ottawa draw a sum of money for branch purposes, and would you send down for the actual statement of that man's particular requirements and pay it on a warrant in that man's name? — A. If he met with a case of that kind, he would communicate with us, and say it was a deserving case, and if we regarded it as such, we would assist. Q. In other words, you centralize it, here to such an extent that no individual sol- dier could be helped unless he came here as a special case? — A. Did I understand that the soldier should come here, or the case come here? Q. The case would come here. Is that method going to stand the test of a large influx of men ? — A. If you can imagine any other variety of cases than we have already had to deal with, I would be glad to take it into consideration. But in the 6,115 cases that we have already handled I think probably all the problems that are likely to arise have already been encountered by us. I do not know offhand. Q. These are sample problems? — A. I do not know of any that could well arise other than those we have already dealt with. Q. Your work may so increase in magnitude that it may become a different problem altogether, requiring different methods ? — A. Then we will change our methods 10 meet the changed conditions. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Have there been any complaints regarding the work of your association? — A. None whatever; everything as far as I know in connection with our work is giving entire satisfaction. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Judging from the figures you have given us it would appear that you are assist- ing people, almost exclusively, as far as giving employment goes, from Toronto? — A. This is the headquarters of this military district, and this being the hea(^quarters it does not Necessarily follow that the money spent here is spent for the benefit of the Toronto men, but it is for men from all over the division. Q. That is what I am trying to get at. Will you tell us how much money you have been given by the Government to spend imder the requisition that you made? — A. I will give you the precise amount of money expended to date, but I do not know that I can give you the details without looking at the books. Q. I would like to know, of that amount of money, how much has' been spent on returned soldiers in !^^ilitary District Xo. 2. showing the amount spent on men from the city of Toronto and how much on men from other parts of the ^filitary District No. 2, than Toronto, and also the money spent outside ^Military District No. 2? — A. I have no account made up classified in that way. but if you want it, it can be done. Q. I wish you would have the account made up in that way. The Head Office of the Association being here, and the soldiers coming back in larger numbers than to other cities, probably there are larger demands made iipon you at the Head Office than there will be from the outside portions of the province? — A. All the money that has been used from a purely relief standpoint, is infinitesimal in its total ; a few himdred dollars, I suppose, will cover the whole amount. [Honourable W. D. McPhereon.] 654 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.-UKTLltyED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. What about money required for administrative purposes? — A. The munici- palities raise that themselves. I do not see why it should be a matter of complaint. I think it is a matter in which the municipalities concerned, in their own interests and in the public interests should work together. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. Do you not help the returned soldier with the Ottawa money when their own funds are exhausted? — A. I suppose that 9S per cent of the applications that come to us are not for charity at all. A man comes in and saye : " My pay is in arrears," or '' I have not got the Paymaster's cheque, can you let me have $10 or $15 in the mean- time. I will make over the Paymaster's cheque when it comes." Q. That is not the case I am speaking of, when you get the money back. I am alluding to cases where you do not get the money back? — A. There are so very few such cases. The amounts are small. By the Chairman: Q. The men who come to you for money are generally those who expect to pay it back again? — A. Yes, we do sometimes find cases of distress in the families of soldiers who are overseas; we have women visitors who are in touch with the Women's Auxiliaries of the various overseas battalions, and if we find a case there requiring assistance, we give it. I can give you the figures for that class of cases, but the total will be very small. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. Is there a Toronto branch of the Soldiers' Aid Association? — A. No, not organized as such; they have in existence here what they call the Returned Soldiers' Employment Bureau. But the Mayor and the Controllers were in conference with me two or three weeks ago, and said they Were considering the formation of a Toronto branch. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. There is no branch of the Soldiers' Aid Association here, similar to that existing in Ottawa? — A. No. Q. Are you assisting financially the organization that exists in Toronto? — A. No, they look after that themselves. By Mr. Pardee : Q. So that everything that is being done here in Toronto for the returned soldiers has been provided for from charitable contributions? — A. No, by no means, that is not the case at all. The returned men have not asked in Toronto Q. Well, make it voluntary ? — A. They have not asked for charity, they have come and asked for accommodation against their pay, or against their pension, or some- thing of that kind, and we have made them advances which they have repaid. The Paymaster would send them a cheque, and then the men would repay the amount they have had. Q. Where does your banking capital come from that you lend '. — A. It conies from the moneys that we receive from the Government. Q. That is, from the Ontario Governments — A. Yes. Q. And that has been very little, you say? — A. Well, I mean it is turning over all the time. We may have out sometimes as much as $2,500, but it is turning over all the time, and tlie next mouth, when the man's pay cheque comes in, his particular account is closed. [Honourable W. D. McPherson.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 655 By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. But those are moneys you receive for administrative purposes; is that the idea? — A. Yes, but the Government liave authorized us to make use ol the funds in such way as we may deem desirable in order to relieve any cases of hardship or dis- tress in the meantime until their pay cheques come in. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Supposing you had lack of opportunity here, and had plenty of opportunity, say, at a place like Nobel or the Soo, and wanted to send a soldier from Toronto to take a position at Nobel or the Soo, where would you get your funds from'{ — A. We pay that from the provincial funds; we are authorized by the Government to do that. Q. From the provincial funds? — A. Yes; in other words, we are authorized by the province to pay everything that is of a general provincial nature out of the provincial funds. Q. Then you get that paid back? — A, No. It is possible a man might pay it back if he choose but if he was being transported from one point to another to get employment we would not ask him for repayment. Q. You w'ould not ask him to pay back in that case? — A. No. • By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Then, so far as you know, everybody in the province of Ontario who has wanted assistance has been assisted by your organization? — A. I would say yes to that, in general terms. Q. And while you have not particularly encouraged the doling out of charity, is it your object to do anything of that kind with returned soldiers? — A. No, ' Different organizations, some fraternal societies, have held concerts and that kind of thing, and accumulated a few hundred dollars, and have asked me how I thought they could make the best use of it and what could be done "U-ith those funds. . I have said, " If you are willing to turn them over to us we will look after them, and when our visitors report a deserving case where they think a grant might be made out of this fund we will make it and advise you, and report to you at any time as to the disiKisition of the money you have donated to us." By the Chairman: Q. .Have you any such thing as a composite committee in Toronto that meets together and discusses these funds with a view to avoiding overlapping in dealing with returned soldiers? — A. I cannot say that we have anything in the nature of a committee, but the officers of our Association are continually doing that. Q. Would it not be well to organize what corresponds to the charity organization society, to have an exchange of that, a composite committee? — A. We work in con- junction with the officers of the Patriotic Fund; we are practically in daily communi- cation with them backwards and forwards. We also work in connection with the pay- master of the district, who may perhaps make some advances of one kind and another, and our Association works constantly in touch with the women's auxiliaries of the overseas battalions. Almost every overseas battalion has an auxiliary association to look after the welfare of the men from that battalion, and we are in constant touch with them. Q. Is there anything like a central record here that would prevent a man from drawing from three or four different sources at the same time? — A. Not, that I am aware of. Q. Don't you think that necessary ?— A. It would be a difficult service to maintain, and 1 do not think there is much cause to suspect anything of the kind. [Honourable W. D. McPherson.] 656 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RErURNED SOLDIERS By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. In the statement you were good enough to say you would prepare, would you be kind enough to include all money received by your organization from the Government? — A. Certainly. By Brigadier General Mason: Q. When do you consider assistance to returned soldiers to end? — how long after the war? — A. We have never come to any conclusion uix)n that point. We are per- fectly willing to help a man at any time he applies if he is a returned soldier, as long as the Commission is in existence and if he came in and showed that he is a returned soldier we would give him any assistance. Q. Even for more than a year?— A. Yes, we have not dealt with him on any time limit basis at all. Q. Would it be necessary to put such machinery in operation? — A. I do not think there is the slightest necessity. Any necessity that arises will be taken care of. The system under which the Government does business in administering their finances will enable them to do it by accountable warrant. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. I find the Province has already agreed to do this, after conference betw^n the Dominion and Provincial Governments, at which the Province of Ontario was repre- sented, and to which the Province of Ontario was a party, namely, that each Province should assume the responsibility of finding employment for discharged soldiers upon their return to Canada who are physically or otherwise unfit to resuiAe their employ- ment, and all expenditures necessary in undertaking this duty are to be borne by the Province?— A. Yes. Q. So you have already agreed to do that? — A. Yes, and we are doing it. Q. In addition to that, all costs in connection with the organization for adminis- tration, or for purely local committees, are to be borne by the Province? — A. Yes. Q. So as a inatter of fact you have agreed to do that ? — A. Yes. Q. And you say that you have done it to the extent that is necessary so far? — A. There has been absolutely no complaint, and everything is working very satisfac- torily. Q. And you are prepared to do whatever is necessary from a financial stand- point? — A. Yes. The Chairman: That will do then, Mr. McPherson. The Witness: Is there any further information you will require about vocational training or anything else? The Chairman : If anything comes up during the next three days that we would like to hear further from you upon, we will make it convenient to hear you. The Witness: I shall be glad to attend again if it is necessary. 'Witness discharged. Mr. Lloyd Harris called, sworn and examined : By the Chairman: Q. I understand, Mr. Harris, that you are a menibcr of the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You have been here this morning while we have been hearing Mr. George's evidence. Have you anything that you can add that will be helpful to the com- mittee? — A. I think, sir that my fellow commissioner, Mr. George, has covered the RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 657 ground so far as the commissioners themselves are concerned. I do not know whether there is anything I can add to it now, unless some member of the committee would like to ask questions. By Mr. Pardee: Q. How many men are you capable of taking care of in Guelph? — A. We think we will have between five and six hundred. By the Chairman: Q. Are you satisfied, Mr. Harris, that the present accommodation is ample? — A. I think that the accommodation we are arranging for will be ample. Q. But it is rather scanty at the present time? — A. Yes. Q. Do you think that any real hardship has been inflicted upon any of the returned soldiers due to scanty accommodation? — A. There may have, been very recently, but the situation will be overtaken in a very short time. Q. By which new hospitals? — A. Whitby and Guelph, and the Salvation Army, that is the Booth Memorial in Toronto. Q. You think that these three new hospitals will relieve the situation so that you will have plenty of accommodation? — A. I think that will take care of the accommodation in the Toronto district for a few months to come. We are plan- ning for 3,000 beds in No. 2 Military District including Guelph. We have other properties that we have under consideration. Q. What percentage of vacant beds do you plan to keep ahead of the demand? — A. That is a very difficult (luestion to answer, for the reason that the hospitals are evacuated at such uncertain times. The men are coming and going all the time; but after looking into the whole question rather carefully on my return from England last summer, and then later on in conference with Major Kirkby, who was sent out from England by Colonel Eeid, I made an estimate that our requirements in Canada would be about 10,000 beds for the year 1917, and that is the programme that the Commission is practically adopting in preparing for the number of beds that we are trying to secure. By Mr. Pardee: Q. When will you have these ready? — A. It will be quite the middle of the summer, but in time to take care of the more pressing needs. By the Chairman: Q. Supposing the policy should be altered so as to send out a greater number of active cases. Would that accommodation be sufficient? — A. Of course, the figures we have are based on estimates. Q. Including a certain number of active cases? — A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Are you in any shape to take care of a great influx of active cases? — A. To-day? Q. Yes? — A. Xo. The demand for accommodation only came upon us in Novem- ber last. We had no demand before that, and our hospitals were half empty. We did not open Spadina Hospital until the 4th of October last, because there was no necessity for it. We had Spadina Hospital ready in the spring of 1916. Q. Would you say, considering the increased demand that there has been since that time that you are fairly equipped with beds now ? — A. .1 think we have done all we possibly could to get the necessary accommodation. It is a very difficult matter to got the class of buildings that we require. Q. Does it strike you that there should be some extra special effort made to get tlio largest accommodation possible? — A. Yes, I think so, that is being urged very strongly. Q. Are there funds at your disposal for thiit purpose? — A. Absolutely. [Mr. Lloyd Harris.] 28277—42 658 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By J J on. Mr. Murphy: Q. It is being urged, you say, but is it being done?— A. It is being done as fast as we can get accommodation. By the Chairman: Q. Have you been under any financial handicap? — A. No. Q. Then, the fact that you have not more accommodation is not because you have not had the financial support you require? — A. No. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Because you could not get accommodation? — A. We could not get the accommodation. I think London was not mentioned this morning. By the Chairman: Q. You might tell us about district No. 1? — A. Of course, Guelph is in No. 1 district. You understand that Guelph is situated in No. 1 district, but it will be operated from Toronto. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. That is the institution of which Mr. George spoke?— A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. What else is there in No. 1 district besides Guelph? — A. We were able to make arrangements with the governors of the Victoria Hospital in London whereby they turned over to us the Isolation Hospital, which is adjoining the General Hospital in London, and the arrangement to be nrade was that they would put up a temporary building to take care of the isolation cases, for which they agreed to pay half the cost, and we agreed to pay half the cost and we had to put up the kitchen and dining room accommodation in connection with this isolation building, so that that gives us a very complete hospital in the city of London. By the Chairman: Q. How many beds?— A. 130 beds. Q. For convalescents? — A. Yes, and it is in the same grounds as the General Hospital, and we have all the accommodation of the General Hospital. Q. Is it bright and attractive? — A. Oh, very. It is an hospital building — built for hospital purposes. Q. Have you vocational training? — A. Yes. Q. Is there anything more in the way of hospital accommodation between London and Sarnia ? — A. No, this is the only building we have in No. 1 district. We did have another convalescent home in London, the home of Colonel Smith, and we decided to close that up at the time that we had no patients for it and we only had about 20 or 30 in the convalescent hospital, and Col. Smith was anxious to get his property back, and the policy has been for months back not to encourage the opening of small convalescent homes. Q. Do you, as a rule, put a man through convalescence in the, military district in which he originated? — A. That has been our endeavour, yes. Q. Would there be, for example, at Toronto any considerable number of men who originated in No. 1 Military division? — A. There has not been up to the present time. At the present time our London home is full and we would have to be putting them wherever we have the accommodation. Q. Your London accommodation at present is full? — A. Yes, that is beiii^r occupied now. Q. Is that the new one you refer to ? — A. Yes. A few months ago we only had 20 or 30 cases. We had accommodation for 130. [Mr. Lloyd Harris.] RKCEl'Tloy, Th-i:ATMi:\T AM) RE-EDLL'A'llOS G59 Q. You send them to Guelph? — A. Of course, we will decide what cases have to go to these various institutions. We will have to consider the cases according to the malady and the necessities of the case where it is in the way of special treatment or special vocation training and re-education they will have to go into one institution where such treatment is carried on. The only thing that we have decided is that the Booth Memorial will be the orthopa-dic institution. Q. And Cobourg for insane? — A. Yes. Witness discharged. The Commission adjourned until 2.30. The Committee resumed at 2.30 p.m. Major Wilson called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman : Q. What position do you occupy with respect to the military services of this District? — A. I am the Officer Commanding "D" Unit. Q. That is, Officer Commanding Military Hospitals Commission Command, " D " Unit?— A. Yes, sir. . Q. What is your address in Toronto? — A. 208 Bloor street West. Q. Do I miderstand you are the depository of the records and files regarding returned soldiers? — A. Yes, sir, they all come to my office. Q. So that the history of any returned soldier of tliis District will be with you? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Will that be his overseas history, his medical history? — A. Yes, sir. Q. His pay book as well? — A. His last pay certificate comes in to me and is sent to the Paymaster of the unit. Q. There are two matters on which the committee wishes a little information and wishes cleared up. First, the matter of the pay. We had complaints made in Montreal that some of the discharged soldiers who arrived in this country had had their pay books taken away from them, and on arrival here had nothing to show when the final settlement came, and consequently did not know whether to accept as correct the amount finally paid them on discharge. Now, is it customary for the men, when they come back, to be without their final pay book? — A. On that question I cannot give yoii very much information. They should have their pay book. I do not know what they do at Quebec, but we get a last pay certificate when the main's documents come in showing the exact amount of pay that is due him. When he arrives at Quebec the officers there give him a certain amount on account, and the balance is placed to his credit here. Q. Where is that recorded? — A. That is recorded on his last pay certificate. Q. Not in his pay book? — A. It may be in his pay book, but I do not see that book, that is the man's personal property. Q. A witness from Kingston testified before the committee at ]\fontreal, that the bulk of the men who come back to No. 3 District do not have their pay books? — A. I do not think that is correct. Q. You do not think that is correct? — A. No, I do not think that is correct. The pay book is the man's own personal property although he may have handed it out to have it checked up in Quebec with the pay certificate; but I do not think that there lias been any order taking the pay book away from him. Bii Mr. Ross (Middlesex) . Q. What is your reason for expressing that opinion? — A. !My own knowledge of the transactions of the men I have passed through myself. [Major Wilson.] 2S2TT— 42i 660 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. To how many men would that apply, because the estimate has been given to us that 95 per cent of the returning men would be without their pay books? — A. I have had no complaints from any of the men who have come to this District. Q. How many men would you interview in that connection? — A. If there were any complaint of that kind I would almost certainly hear it; the complaint would come to me. By the Chairman: Q. What you say is that. several thousand men have passed through your hands? —A. I took over the command on the first day of November, and since that time about 4,000 men, or approximately that number, have passed through my hands. Q. Since then others have come and others have been dismissed? — A. Yes, sir. Q. About how many men per month return to this district? — A. In February we took in about 500 men. Q. That has reference to " D " Unit ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That would not include the figures for Kingston and London? — A. No, sir. Q. Those 500 returned men a month would represent what you are normally receiving? — A. Yes, in round figures. Q. You say there has been no complaint from any of the returned soldiers who have passed through your hands in regard to the pay book?— A. No, sir, no com- plaint has reached me. Q. Who is in charge of the discipline? — A. I am. Q. Of the convalescent and undischarged men? — A. I am. Q. In all the military hospitals here? — A. In all the hospitals. Q. Do you have any trouble with the men here, insubordination, drunkenness, or anything of that kind? — A. I am sorry to say I do at times. Q. What form of punishment do you have when a man returns at night, let us, say intoxicated? — A. I administer justice according to the King's Regulations: admonish him the first time, the second time I fine him $2, and so on. Q. Have you cells? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you lock a man up in those cells? — A. If he is unmanageable we do. Q. As a penalty or as a prevention? — A. Largely as a prevention. Q. How are the cells furnished? — A. It is furnished with a place for him to lie down and supplied with electric light and the men are warm and comfortable. Q. Is the cell furnished with a mattress or cot? — A. We do not keep the men in overnight if we can possibly avoid it. If they do remain overnight we supply them with a mattress. Q. You would supply the man with a mattress every night? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How about violently insane patients, what do you do with them? — A. I have not seen many of them; they have been principally sent to Cobourg. When they come through from Quebec they have been left off at Cobourg. Q. When you are inflicting a punishment like incarceration, is it done on the knowledge and with the sanction of the medical officer of the hospital? — A. Always. Q. You would not inflict any penalty without first consulting the medical officer .' — A. No, not under any circumstnces. Q. Have you a medical officer in all these hospitals? — A. We have. Q. And is that medical officer there day and night? — A. Yes, sir. And when an orderly room is held, the medical officer stands at my right hand, and the man's papers and d icuments are all there to be viewed. Q. So there would not be any chance of a canvalescent man being given punish- ment that would lessen his chances of recovery? — A. No, sir, not under any circum- stances. Q. To what extent do these convalescents return to the hospital under the influence of liquor? That, I suppose, is very detrimental to them in their process [Major Wilson.] RECEPTION, TREATMHST AND RE-EDLCATION 661 of recovery? — A. Ye?, sir, quite so. We had a great deal of trouble with the men on that account until about a month and a half ago. At that time there was no con- ducting officer sent aloni?. When they left Quebec they had liquor on the train, and it was supplied to them, I think, along the route. When they arrived in Montreal they were often in a very drunken condition. To get over that difficulty I suggested to Ottawa that they should send a conducting officer along with the men from Quebec to Montreal. Q. With each party? — A. With each party. Then wlicn arriving in Montreal t send a conducting officer from here and they would be handed over to my conducting officer at Montreal. Q. Has the conducting officer any power to prevent these men from obtaining liquor? — A. Yes, sir. In Montreal, when they arrive at the Windsor station — they have all been coming C.P.K. — we wire ahead and have a guard provided at Montreal at the station doors, and no man is allowed out of the station. There is a Khaki Club there which provides amusement for them and gives them light refreshments, and so on, until train time comes. Some civilians, thinking they are doing the soldiers a kindness, come in and try to smuggle liquor in to them. Before the men step on the car they are searched by a sergeant of the picket ; and before they go out the conducting officer goes over the car and searches every man's kit so as to avoid any chance of his having any liquor. The result has been that in the last month and a half, we have had practically no drunken cases arriving in Toronto. Q. After they get to Toronto, what hours are the men allowed to be absent for recreation out of doors? — A. Their work ceases about four to four-thirty, p.m., each day. On Saturday afternoons there is no work or drill. And they are free from that time until ten o'clock at night. If a man wishes to stay out after that, if he is going to a concert or something of that kind, he is given a late pass which entitles him to remain out until twelve o'clock. If a man misbehaves himself during the week, his passes are cancelled, as one of the means of punishment. Q. One of the means of punishment is to compel a man to stay in the hospital? — A. Confining him to barracks. Q. Changing his costume? — A. Yes, putting him in blue. Q. Do you ever keep him in bed? — A. No, sir, not as a rule. Q. As a punishment? — A. I have thought of that, but I thought that was too easy. We make him work when he is in blue. Q. Some of these men bring back liquor with them either in their pockets or their anatomy?— A. Yes, sir, they do. Q. Have you complained to the authorities here with a view of getting that stopped? — A. I went personally to Col. Grasett and asked him to assist. Q. Is he the Chief of Police? — A. Yes, sir, the Chief of Police in Toronto, asked him if he could lend some assistance in trying to stop it. I suggested different ways that I thought would be efficient, but he said that he was doing all he could at the present time with the plain clothes men. We find that the plain clothes men were not at all satisfactory in connection with our soldiers. Q.' You do not feel then that he has done all he could to protect your men from the influence of liquor in Toronto? — A. No, sir. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Does that state of affairs still exist? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. And you, as an officer, regard it as very detrimental to the health and progress of your men to have it possible for convalescent men to secure liquor ? — A. They leave the hospital and in fifteen minutes they come back- stupefied drunk. Q. Within fifteen minutes of their absence from the hospital? — A. Yes. [Major Wilson.] 662 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Hon. Mr. Mxirphy : Q. Does that happen now? — A. Yes, it happens every day or two. Q. Where do they get the liquor? — A. Some man around the corner gives them bad liquor. By the Chairman: Q. You do not think the city authorities are showing the activity that they should in protecting the soldiers? — A. I think they could do a great deal more. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Does that lead to many breaches of discipline ? — A. Yes, sir, it is our greatest difficulty. We have a hard time handling the man that gets drunk. In many cases, amputation cases, men go out and have to be carried home, and it is most difficult to handle an amputation case of that nature. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. Have you made any recent complaints about these occurrences ? — A. Tes, sir, I have complained time and again without very much effect. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. I cannot understand this Order in Council of the 15th of March. I want some idea in regard to the line of demarkation between the Military Hospitals Commission and the Army Medical Service. As I understand it, the Military Hospitals Com- mission in the first place is a civilian body?— A. Yes. Q. Now, the question of administration and discipline, and documents, is a military matter, is it not? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Well, then, of course, that is under the care of the Military Hospitals Com- mission Command? — A. Yes. Q. You really cannot be directly responsible logically to a civil body, can you?— A. I am responsible for discipline to General Logic. I have not received any orders from the Commission. Q. Now, as a matter of fact, you are responsible to General Logie for what? — A. For discipline. Q. Isn't your superior officer. Colonel Sharpies? — A. Yes. All I am responsible to him for is interior economy and administration. Q. Is that what you consider to be the purport of this Order in Council, or has it always been so? — A. That has always been so. Q. My impression was that you were responsible directly to Colonel Sharpies? — A. No, sir. Q. Not in any respect? — A.. In some respects, yes. Q. Not as regards discipline? — A. No, sir. Q. Would it not be a better co-ordination of things if you were responsible all through to General Logic?- A. Well, it might make it more simple. Mr. Ross: Less unwieldy. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. From whom did you receive your appointment? — A. I was brought from France for this appointment. I was in France at the time. Q. From whom did you receive it? — A. From the Minister of Militia, I think. I do not know really Q. Who appointed you to your position under the Military Hospitals Commis- sion? — A. I arrived here on the order of the Minister of Militia. I went and reported to General Logie, and I suppose it was he who put me in the position I am now in. Q. Did you get merely a verbal appointment or a written appointment? — A. I got a verbal appointment. [Major Wilson.] RECEPTION', TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 663 Q. You have nothing in writing? — A. JNo, sir, nothing in writing. Hon. Mr. Daniel: That is curious. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. Major Wilson, what staff have you in connection with your position as Commandant of the Military Hospitals Commission here? — A. Do you mean com- batant staff? Q. What staff for carrying on your work, what buildings do you occupy, and so on? — A. We have different hospitals, there is the Spadina, College Q. Where are your headquarters? — A. At No. 1 Queen's Park. Q. What staff have you there? — A. I have the paymaster, senior medical officer; all the documents are there and the staff working on those documents. Q. You did practically this same work before the Military Hospitals Commis- si.. n Command was established, in other offices, did you not? — A. No, sir. Q. Was it done in other offices? — A. That was before I arrived here. Q. Supposing as a matter of fact, you were made responsible to General Logie and this matter was put under the Army Medical Corps, could not a lot of this expense be done away with for that staff? — A. I do not think that there is any undue expense there. Q. Is there any duplication? — A. No, not that I know of. Q. Is it not being done with a heavier staff than it was before? — A. The work h;is incrensed considerably. Q. Could not the old staff have been expanded with greater economy than has been dmie in this way? — A. I do not think there is any waste in this connection. Q. What is the number of the unit here? — A. "D" ITnit, By Mr. Pardee: Q. Are you an Army Medical Corps, or a Hospitals Commission man ? — A. I am not an Army ^ledical Corps man, I know that. Q. You are not a medical man? — A. No, I am a soldier. Q. Then the medical man under the Military Hospitals Commission does not come under your jurisdiction at all? — A. They are under me in rank only. Q. Are they below you? — A. Yes. Q. Are they wholly subject to your orders ? — A. As far as discipline goes they are. Q. But otherwise they are not? — A. No. Q. Is the Army ^Medical Corps superior to you in a medical way, that is as to the treatment of cases, etc.? — A. I should think they should be, they know more than I do about that. Q. Consequently you have nothing whatever to do with them? — A. Not with the medical part. Q. You have wholly to do with discipline? — A. Exactly. Q. And, as I understood you to say, you have the sentencing of men for various offences? — A. Yes. Q. That is wholly within your jwwer? — A. Within my power. Q. What offences are there besides drunkenness? — A. There is insolence to an officer, there is disobeying the command of an officer, or of a sergeant, etc., etc., more or less offences that apply to the Army. Q. Insolence, disobedience, drunkenness, what else? — A. Absence without leave, those are the principal items. Q. WTien you hold court does a medical man sit with you? — A. Always. Q. For what purpose is he there? — A. He informs me as to the fitness of the man for the punishment which is to be served out to him. Q. So that it is a double-barrelled arrangement so far as the punishment is con- cerned? — A. Xo, I would not say that, exactly, we work together, he advises — Q. Quite so — it is double-barrelled; I am right about that after all. — A. No. [Major Wilson.] 664 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Well, neither one does it without the other. — A. The " double-barrelled," does not sound exactly right. Q. Neither one can act without the other, Major. — A. As to whetlier the man is ill or unfit for the punishment ; I cannot sentence him without a say-so of the medical officer, but if he is fit, I can give him punishment. Q. If he is fit; you take it on the certificate of the doctor, whether he is fit or otherwise ? — A. Exactly. Q. Would it strike you now as an ordinary business proposition, leaving the mili- tary end of it out of it altogether if you like, that the one man could do that job? — A. No, sir. Q. Why not? — A. In any battalion, local or overseas, before the Commanding Officer sentences a man to detention he has to have the advice of the Medical Officer that the man is fit, and it is a repetition of that in this case. Q. Well now, suppose a medical officer was Commander in the hospital could he not do that just as well as a non-medical commander? — A. No, sir. Q. Why ? — A. ]\Iedical men are alright on medicine, but they are not soldiers. Q. Can you not make soldiers of them? — A. No, sir. Q. You can make a soldier out of a lawyer? — A. Sometimes. Q. Would he, as a rule, make a good soldier when you come down to the last analysis? — A. He might. Q. Now you will admit that medical men as a rule have as much brain as anybody else and as much force of character and education? — A. They. have not had the train- ing. Q. Would not a doctor train just as well for a soldier as I, a lawyer? — A. Yes. Q. Quite so, and how many professional men are soldiers in Canada ? — A. I think there are quite a number. Q. Now, there are, but I am talking about here before, when we had no profession of soldiers, Major ?— A. I am talking about the present. Q. Following up your own argument, the Army Medical Corps were in existence, as soldiers, long before the Hospitals Commission was ever born? — A. Yes. Q. The Army Medical Corps was in existence before the Military Hospitals Com- mission was appointed, isn't that right? — A. I never thought the Army Medical Corps were real soldiers. Q. They were just playing at it, and the rest of you were doing what? — A. We were the real soldiers, the men who were doing the figiiting. Q. You were all real soldiers, in training for about 10 days each year? — A. That was before the war. Q. We are talking about before the war, and you all had the same training, the Medical Corps and the others? — A. I do not know much about the Medical Corps before the war. Q. Leaving the Medical Corps out of it, that is what you had at that time, ten days training? — A. Yes. Q. And so did they. Now then, if they had just as much training, and no more, and you had just as much training, and no more than they did, would they not make as good soldiers as anybody else? — A. You could make as good soldiers out of them by giving them the same training as I have received in the last three years. Q. Then your contention is that no doctor is enough of a soldier to take command of a hospital ? — A. I will not say that. Q. You will not go as far as that down the road with me? — A. No. Q. How far will you go ? — A. Well, they know enough to run the part of the hospi- tal that has to do with the illness and the trouble from which the men suffer, that is as far as the disability of the men physically is concerned, but beyond that I do not think they are capable of running a hospital. [Major Wilson.] RECEPTION, THE ATM L XT AND RE-EDUCATIOX 665 Q. Give your reasons? — A. Because most of the men who are soldiers to-day are business men, and it requires more or less business knowledge to handle the work at the present time, with a thorough knowledge of soldiering combined. Q. Following that line of argument then you say that the doctors are not business men? — A. I would not class them as business men. Q. Why would they not be business men any more than the members of any other profession? You have known doctors successful in business, have you not? — A. Xot as a rule. Q. I am going on with that; you say that doctors are not business men? — A. I would not class them as business men. Q. You have known them to be successful doctors in business? — A. Not as a rule. Q. Anyway, your opinion is that no doctor should have command of a hospital? — A. For discipline, yes, sir. Q. He is all right to treat the measles, but he must not look after the men in the way of discipline? — A. Exactly. Q. And that is the reason you think the Army Medical Corps could not have been expanded and have done the same work as the Military Hospitals Commission and Military Hospitals Command? — A. I don't think they would have done it as well, that is my opinion. Q. As I understand you, your contention is that the training of an army medical man is entirely towards the medical preparation? — A. Exactly. Q. And that his training is not such as to fit him for disciplinary purposes when compared with a man who has been through the discipline of military training^ — A. That is exactly it. Q. But you are always leaving out the fact that the doctor may have been through that himself? — A. I haven't seen any of them yet. By the Chairman : Q. The Army Medical Corps' training is not training in the handling of men? — A. Exactly. Bi/ Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Do you know, as a matter of fact, to what extent a medical officer, before lie joins the Army Medical Corps, receives military instruction? — A. I can't say. Q. You don't know? — A. I don't know the whole detail, no. Q. Then, as a matter of fact, you have been giving evidence with regard to the capabilities and capacities of medical ofHcers as military officers without knowing any- thing about what they got in the way of instruction? — A. I would not say exactly that. I get a certain amount of knowledge, but I can't go into details to tell you exactly how much they get, but I know they are not trained like an ordinary every- day soldier. Q. Do you think you would be in a position to give an opinion without that information? — A. From my general knowledge I think I would. Q. Without knowing how much instruction these medical officers get in military matters you are able to give an opinion as to how they were unable to carry out their duties? — A. Yes, and I know a soldier when I see him, and I know the medical men are not soldiers in that sense of the word that I know a soldier. Q. What do you mean by that now? — A. I can tell a soldier as soon as I see him. Q. Do you? By his clothes, or what? — A. No, his command, his appearance, as a rule. I know whether a man has received training or not. You know, yourself, when you come across those men that have been trained in England you easily tell tliem as soldiers. Q. I have seen a good many soldiers, both English and on this side; however, I do not think much is to be gained from that; I want to go back for a moment to find [Major Wilson.] 666 SPECIAL COMMITTEE- C.E.F.—RETURX ED SOLDIERS out how yoi; received your appointment; you told me that you have never received airy written ap])ointment, that you received word over in France; now, from whom did that word come?— A. That came from Ottawa. Q. Was it written word to you? — A. I did not see it; I got an order when I was in France to return to England for duty. Q. Who did that order come from? — A. It came from Folkestone; I didic and amputation cases will be treated. Q. What will you use the Whitby Convalescent Home for ?— A. I have been con- templating setting aside one cottage there for non-tuberculous chest cases, including asthmatic cases, convalescent pneumonia cases, and such like. Q. What also do you accommodate at Whitby?— A. Other than that, general convalescents. We are using it at the present time to help us out in the way of general accommodation. Q. I understand that when you get a mixed consignment of returned soldiers they go to the receiving hospital at the Spadina Institution? — A. Yes. Q. Are they sorted out very carefully according to the treatment they require? — A. Partly, and partly according to where they live. For instance, a man may live in Hamilton and have a condition which does not require very active treatment; that man is allowed to go to his home city. Our accommodation at Hamilton is very limited and our facilities for treatment there have not been worked up as well as in Toronto. Q. Apart then from the desire of every man to be in his own locality, do you classify them according to their disability ?— A. Well, not according to hospitals because we had only two hospitals up to a couple of weeks ago, when we moved some men to Whitby. We have classified them of course in the hospitals. Q. What do you do with insane people? — A. They go direct from the railway station to the asylum or to the reception hospital. Q. At Cobourg? — A, I mean if they go past Cobourg. Q. If such cases come here, do they go from here to Cobourg. If treatment at Cobourg is necessitated the patients are sent to Cobourg. I believe the practice is that if Cobourg finds the man is permanently insane, he is transferred to his own province. Such cases do not come into our Convalescent Hospitals although they are dealt with by our administrative office. Q. Does it work satisfactorily to have the insane cases eventually sent to the men's native province for the provincial authorities to take care of? — A. I do not know that I am in a position to speak of that. I have heard no arguments against it. Q. What do you do with tubercular patients in this district? — A. Send them to a sanitarium as soon as we get empty beds there. Q. What sanitarium are you sending them to now? — A. To the Mountain Sani- tarium at Hamilton. Q. What accommodation have you there?— A. Accommodation for about 75 patients at the present moment. Q. About how many patients are there at the present time? — A. About 75. Q. Then the hospital accommodation there is filled? — A. Yes. There were extra beds coming along every few days, but we are crowded with patients all the time. Q. Have you any tubercular patients here which you are not able to send to a sanitarium? — A. Probably there are 10 patients. Q. And you have no place to send them to? — A. No, sir. Q. Have you used the accommodation offered at Gravenlnirst at all ? — A. We have about 30 men there now. Q. Is that all the Gravenhurst Sanitarium can take? — A. It is all they will take. For five months, approximately, they have refused to take any new cases, though they agreed to hold what cases were already there. Q. Then at the present time you are decidedly short of accommodation for tuber- culous patients in this section? — A. JNot decidedly. Q. Pretty dangerously close to the margin? — A, There is extra accommodation to be provided at Hamilton, and every few days we get a few extra beds. There are some new pavilions there whjch will be available in a few days. It has been just that way right along. [Major F. J. Munn.] RECEI'TIOX, Th'KATMllST AM> RE-EIH CM lOS 671 Q. With the pavilions you expect to have at your disposal at Hamilton, will jou have a margin of safety? — A. No, not here. Q. Not for this district?— A. No. By Mr. fardee: Q. Do you think extra accommodation should be got at once for tubercular cases? — A. Yes. I hold rather advanced views upon the subject of tuberculosis. I mean by that, that the general consensus of opinion of tuberculosis specialists is that if wq could continue tlie ideal conditions such as are arranged for a man at a sanitarium, and if that could be continued for a period of from three to five years, the number of break-downs would be very, very small. In civilian life a man goes to a sanitarium for six or nine months. He then goes back to the same conditions under which his tubercular condition was created, and the fact is that a great many of such cases break down and return for further treatment. Q. Your idea is that the returned soldier should go to one of these institutions for six or nine months? — A. Yes. Q. Then what? — A. And then be transferred to a colony, where his disability for pension purposes could be estimated on the basis of his physical disability. He should be given perhaps a free cottage, built on proper lines, with open air sleeping porches, and other conveniences, and remain under medical direction. Q. For how long? — A. Until such time as it is concluded that his case is not only closed and quiescent, but really cured. Q. H not cured the man should be kept on indefinitely? — A. Yes. There would always be a few such cases develop. We would always have some incurables. Q. Do you agree w^ith some of the evidence which has been given here, but which you have not heard, that a period of six months with the proper treatment will alleviate the disease and teach the patient a great deal in the way. of prevention, that is provid- ing you have his co-operation and good-will? — A. It will, with the proper co-operation of the man. Q. Yes, with his co-operation and will? — A. Yes, but not sufiiciently so from a public standpoint. The Federal authorities are responsible for this man and for any exacerbation of his condition which may be attributed to the service. Therefore, if you let him go out after six months or nine months, he is out six or nine months and be comes back and you have wasted all that has previously been given. Q. Is he a danger to the balance of the community while he is out ? — A. It depends whether he is active, whether there are germs in the sputum or not. Q. That cannot be determined very well, I suppose? — A. Oh, yes. Q. I mean without constant examination? — A. Quite. Q. As to the balance of these cases that you have spoken about, you say that you consider the accommodation for wounded men coming back to Canada is short. What, in your opinion, ought to be done? — A. Get more. Q. Are you in favour of large or small institutions? — A. Large. Q. With a maximum or a minimum of what? — A. Five hundred. Q. A minimum of 500. How many, in your opinion, ought to be established with men coming back at the rate they are, and with the possibility of a great many more coming, a larger percentage by reason of the probable termination of the war? — A. Well, 1 feel that I should now have .")00 more beds than I have at the present moment, for present needs, and that probably by the time we get the Booth ^femorial hospital in North Toronto we will have enough additional patients to fully fill that. Q. Would you take the 515 out patients you have and put them in the Booth ^lomorial as soon as it is finished? — A. No, I would not put tliem in the Booth. Q. Nor in any other hospital ? — A. No. Q. How many? — A. I have not exact figures, but I would presume 90 per cent, allowing some men, nervous cases, who would really do bettor in home surroundings. [Major F. J. Munn.] 672 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Am I right in saying this: will you tell the committee that in your opinion a shortage at the moment is to this extent, that there are 515 out patients, 90 per cent of whom" ought to be in convalescent homes or hospitals? — A. Yes. Q. You say that is right? — A. Yes. Q. So to that extent you are short anyway? — A. Yes. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. How many of those 515 would consent to go into a hospital again, do you know? — A. Oh, they would have to; there is no question about it. Q. They would go? — A. Yes, or be discharged. They come in and out now in the routine. They are given a pass for a week, two weeks or three weeks. By the Chairman: Q. They are all part of the army? — A. Quite. By Mr. Pardee: Q. And being treated? — A. Yes. Q. But not properly by reason of the lack of accommodation? — A, We cannot exercise the proper supervision. Q. Now then, I want to ask, are you a military doctor. Major Munn? — A. Yes. Q. You know something about military routine, and so on? — A. Yes, I have been in it eleven years. Q. Are you A.M.C. or M.H.C.?— A. A little of both. Q. Were you ever in the A.M.C? — A. Yes, for eleven years. Q. And now you are A. I am still in it. Q. And Military Hospitals' Commission, too? — A. Yes. Q. Now then, have you had any experience of medical men being in command of 9 hospital such as these convalescent hospitals are that we are talking about? — A. Yes, it was not until the 1st of November that we had any disciplinary officer in the hospitals. Q. When? — A. In 1916. Let us take it from another standpoint. Take a base hospital, with its quota of approximately 34 officers, 8-4 nurses, and a personnel of 252 non-commissioned officers and men, who is responsible for discipline there? Q. Who is?— A. The medical officer, the O.C. Q. Does he iidminister that whole hospital? — A. Certainly. Q. Is he in charge of that hospital from cellar to garret, for its administration in every way? — A. Absolutely. There is this difference: the soldier as a patient, and the soldier as a member of the personnel of the Army Medical Unit. The soldier as a patient in the hospital is laot amenable to punishment while in hospital. His crime sheets are made out in hospital and referred back to the 0.0. of his battalion. In the arrangements for drafting men overseas and returning them to Canada, the O.C. of the battalion does not exist when the man gets back here so far as we are concerned; therefore we have felt it absolutely necessary, notwithstanding K.K. and O to administer discipline. We had to do it and we did it. Q. And you have done it successfully? — A. Reasonably. Q. Even if you say so yourself? — A. I think, reasonably. Q. You will admit it; that is fair? — A. Up to the first of November. Q. Since that time, and only since that time, has any new authority come upon the scenes. And with all due modesty to yourself and the A.M.C, will you say that you see very much betterment since this new order of things came into force? — A. Yes, it is better in this way, it relieves us. We have a distinct shortage of medical officers, and we can use the disciplinary officer in the hospi,tal to great advantage. Q. Then would you say that a disciplinary officer is best in the hospitals outside of the medical men? — A. Yes. [Major F. J. Munn.] i RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 673 Q. Then you do agree — do you want to qualify that? — A. I want to say this: in my opinion the disciplinary officer should be not the O.C. but the adjutant under his chief. Q. Now, you have got me in a little deeper water. The disciplinary officer should be the O.C.'s adjutant? — A. Yes, his assistant. Q. He should bo a medical man? — A. Not necessarily. Q. If he is the O.C.'s adjutant, the O.C. should be a medical man? — A. Yes, he should be. I am simply giving you my opinion. My opinion is that the O.C. of the hospital should be a medical man. Q. And his adjutant need not be a medical man? — A. No. Q. But he should be a disciplinarian? — A. Yes. Q. And the adjutant should be under the O.C? — A. Yes. Q. That is right? — A. Just as the O.C. has his quartermaster. Q. You have heard Major Wilson give his evidence here. You do not believe that a medical man belonging to the A.M.C. should be under the man at the top of the hospitals here, and that he should be subservient to him in any way except in a medical way? — A. I did not get that question. Q. Well, Major Wilson says that in his opinion a medical man is not fit to be an O.C. I think you heard that?— A. Yes. Mr. MiDDLKBRO : Major Wilson said not necessarily. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What you say is that if Major W^ilson thinks that a medioal man is only fit to take care of the medical end of the hospital, he is mistaken in that? — A. There is no problem in a hospital which has not got a medical aspect. Q. Quite so, therefore what? — A. That is the conclusion that I have come to. Q. Then will you say that a medical mun could take care of that hospital in a disciplinary and in every other way? — A. Without any question. Q. And if there is a disciplinary officer he should be under the medical officer? — A. Yes, just as the quartermaster looks after stores and supplies, the adjutant after discipline, and the medical officer commands the hospital. Q. All medical units are administered by a medical man, the O.C? — A. Yes, the field ambulances, clearing hospitals, base hospitals, and so on. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. The returned soldier question is a medical question? — A. Seventy-five to ninety per cent of it. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Then, in your opinion, the Military Hospitals Commission could be used for some things to aid you in the A.M.C? — A. Well, I am not just clear as to your ques- tion. Q. Could they be used so that they could be of benefit to the A.M.C? — A. In what way do you mean ? Q. Do you think they are necessary? — A, I do not know — there are many divisions that could be made of the various duties; I do not know what the proposition is, or where they are going to divide it. Q. Are you of this opinion, that there should be one definite head? — A. Did you tver see anything that woi-ked well with dual control? Q. Then is this working well with divided jurisdiction? (No answer.) By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. You said you wrote a letter making certain recommendations, when was that? — A. That was an error; my letter was addressed to Major Wilson, and he forwarded it to Col. Sharpies. 28277—48 [Major F. J. Munn.] 674 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. When was that ? — A. Approximately two weeks ago. It was as soon as I could see daylight in the matter, what numbers were coming to us. Q. Has any action been taken on that, as far as you know? — A. Not as far as I know. Q. And the insufficient accommodation was just as you described to Mr. Pardee? — A. Yes. Mind you, this is all coming up now, it is all new, the situation is changing all the time, and up to the present influx we have approximately had sufficient accom- modation. By Mr. Pardee: Q. There were some letters, filed here by 'Colonel Marlow, written by you to him; here is one of February 6, 1917, re tuberculosis. These are your letters, are they? — A. Yes. (Vol. Ill of Evidence handed to witness). Q. They are contained on pages 220, 221, 223, 224 and 225 ?— A. I have not had an opportunity of reading them. Q. No, but I take it they are yours ; but if you care to make any statement regard- ing those letters, alright. Hon. Mr. Murphy: Do you wish to make any statemexit about those letters now? The Chairman: If you desire to do so, you may look them over, and if you have any statement to make to the Committee afterwards you may do so if you like. Witness : I will have to recall those letters. Going back to the question of tuber- culosis, the discipline in the sanatoria is altogether a medical problem. It has no other aspect. There are only two punishments, one is fines and the other confinement to bed and removal of clothes. Crimes in sanatoria are serious matters. King's Regulations and Orders do not cover it at all. I have a scheme to submit to this Committee, which I put up some time ago to Ottawa, and I would urge very strongly that this or some such basis should be given us as an assistance in maintaining discipline in the sana- toria. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. With regard to crimes to sanatoria? — A. Yes. Q. What is it in brief? — A. There are four main crimes: absence without leave, expectoration, drunkenness, and disobedience. Absence without leave is an offence for which, on the first offence, the man forfeits his pay for the number of days of his absence, and is to be admonished; for the second offence he forfeits his pay for the number of days absent, and a fine of an equal amount; for his third offence he would forfeit his pay for the number of. days absent and is fined twice that amount ; for the fourth offence he forfeits his pay for the number of days absent, and is fined four times that amount; for the fifth and each subsequent offence, he forfeits his pay for the number of days and a fine of eight times that amount. We have, in addition, C.B., which, in this instance, means confinement to bed and removal of clothes, which is good treatment in tuberculosis cases, and may be given at the discretion oi the officer in charge of the sanatorium. The fine may be remitted for good behaviour. There is one clause here to which I would like to call attention : — " The objection may be raised that the punishments are too heavy, but I would point out that the man has two chances to get off in each case, without being seriously punished, and that if he gets to a fourth or fifth offence, it is practically useless for us to waste time, effort and money trying to effect a cure for him." This memo, received some consideration; I took it up with Col. Mewburn, now Major- General Mewburn, and it met with his approval, after some objections which I removed from a medical standpoint. [Major F. J. Munn.] RECEPTION, TliEAlilEM AND RE-EDUCATION 675 Q. Have your suggestions been adopted? — A. No, sir. At the time I thought it was necessary, and I thought I could put out a scheme of discipline in connection with tlie convalescent hospitals; but I have come to the conclusion that it is not necessary. Q. Do you find that when tubercular convalescents secure liquor it has a very deleterious effect on them? — A. Oh, very. I made drunkenness a very serious crime in my scheme of punishments. Q. In the trouble cases it is one of the worst things possible? — A. Absolutely. Q, Are you troubled much with drunkenness at the places where you have tuber- cular patients? — A. Only to a very moderate extent now. It was. Q. Are you assisted in every possible way by the authorities? — A. At the sana- toria ? Q. Yes? — A. The sanatoria are so remote from the usual centres that there is not tlie same difficulty as there is here in Toronto. Q. You have not the same difficulty that Dr. Byers reported in St. Agathe? — A. No. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. In regard to tubei'culosis, did you examine the sanitaria in !Muskoka? — A. Yes. Q. I received a letter from the proprietor of the Minnewaska, or some such sani- tarium, complaining very bitterly of Col. Thompson's evidence in regard to that hos- pital did you road that evidence of Col. Thompson in regard to that hospital? —A. If I did it is so long ago that I do not recollect it clearly. Q. What is the condition of that hospital as far as its being a proper place for treatment of tuberculosis? — A. I do not think it was up to grade. By the Chairman: Q. How long did your patients occupy it? — A. Some months; I would not like to say. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Wliat was the matter with it? — ^A. In the first place it was not suited. It was an old summer hotel which was remodelled. There was one wing which had the proper open air features to it, but other than that it was not suitablt. Q. You mean the proper scientific appliances were not there to give the patients proper treatment? — A. The construction of the building was not proper; it was an old ramshackle building, and they tried to fix it up with sanitarium rooms. Q. Had they proper appliances for inspecting the sputa and so on? — A. No, we had to put them in ourselves. Q. You have no patients there now? — A. Not at the Minnewaska. We have some still at the Muskoka free hospital. I Q. Have you inspected the hospital at Whitby? — A. Yes. Q. What is going on there now in respect to massage? Are they teaching the convalescent soldiers massage? j The CiiAiRMAX : We will get that from ^Ir. Nichol. i By Mr. Ross (Middlesex)': Q. Do you know anything about it? — A. There is a class in massage in charge of Sergt.-Major Kendall, of some twenty-eight women and twenty-one men, I believe. We have very little to do with that. They were put in there for instruction under Sergt.-Major Kendall. Q. They are not under your jurisdiction at all in any way? — A. No. Q. You don't know much about them? — A. I don't know anything about them. By the Chairman: I Q. Is that under the vocational officers? — A. No. I Q. Under what jurisdiction are they? — A. I believe they are directly under I Colonel Thompson from Ottawa. 28277— 43i [Major F. J. Munn.] 676 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Middlehro: Q. What is the charge for soldiers at the Free Hospital at Muskoka? — A. Twelve dollars a week. Q. Wliat was the charge at this other place, the Minnewaska? — A, Ten dollars. Q. Did you have some complaints from the patients who were s^ent up to the Free Hospital? That they would not stay there any longer? — A. It was one pro- cession of discharges from there. Q. From the Free Hospital? — A. Yes; it is yet. Q. What was the reason for that? — A. The reason goes back, I think, to the reason for my proposing this scheme of discipline for sanatoria; that is, that the civilian institutions do not give any scheme of punishment for minor offences. They have only one punishment — discharge. If a man does not behave, out he goes. Q. Did you ever hear of this complaint — I have — that the soldier patients who were sent to the Free Hospital at Muskoka complained that when they got there they were placed in the position of orderlies for the purpose of serving the civilian patients? — A. They had a great shortage of help up there, I believe, at one time, and they thought that there was no reason why these healthy men who were able to do it should not wait on table. The only criticism of] that was that they should not have been asked to wait on civilians; but we insist, not only in sanatoria but in con- valescent hospitals, that a man who is able to do light hospital duties should do it. Q. I am not criticising that, but, as I understand it from the information I have, the reason many soldiers left the Free Hospital was because they were placed in the menial position of acting as orderlies for civilian patients, and it was in consequence of that — because they would not receive them in the Free Hospital on that account — that you had to take them to the Minnewaska for a short time ? — A. I am not familiar with all the details as to the arrangement between the Free Hospital and the Minnewaska. Q. You found that they would not accommodate at the Free Hospital all the patients you would like to send there? — A. I really do not know; I am not in a posi- tion to express any opinion; I am not familiar with the details. Q. You do not know that? — A. I do not know that. Q. You do not know whether the Minnewaska was opened or patients were sent there because the Free Hospital would not keep them? — A. No. I would not go on record in connection with the matter; I don't know enough about it. By the Chairman: Q. Many of your patients, military patients with tubercular ancestors, declined to remain long enough over there to do them real good or arrest the disease? — A. Undoubtedly. Q. What percentage of your patients are willing to stay out the full length of time necessary to arrest their trouble? — A. I would not like to give exact figures. Q. Will half of them do it?— A. Oh, more than that. Q. Is there anything you can suggest that would render conditions more attractive so that men, for their own good and for the good of the state, would remain there, and not take their discharge until they were really capable of returning to work? — A. There is no scheme whereby you could, unless you had compulsory legislation, induce every man to stay six months in any one place. You might induce 75 per cent of them, but you cannot induce them all. Q. I can see that it might be difficult to compel them to stay, because a tuber- cular case held against his will will not make improvement, but could anything be done to make those institutions more attrtctivc, so that the men would be willing to stay? — A. Well, it must necessarily have a rather severe aspect. A man must take rest. lie must have his whole attitude towards life completely changed. There are many complex intorweavings of one sort and another that go towards the treatment of tuberculosis; I think it is the most complex problem of all. I do not think there [Major F. J. Munn.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 677 are more than 25 per cent, if there are that many — 20 or 25 per cent of the men — who do not take sanitarium treatment. Q. What becomes of that 25 per cent? — A, They are given a month's pay in lieu of sanatorium treatment. Q. They go back into their homes? — A. Yes. Q. They are discharged, and you no longer have any control over them? — A. No. Q. They are centres of infection to their families and to others? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Would not you favour compulsory legislation? — A. I would very decidedly, particularly in cases which are actively infectious to others. The general consensus of opinion in tuberculosis, I think, is that it is largely a matter of infection during childhood, and that the disease remains latent for a number of years until conditions are such as to bring about the active tuberculosis as we know it. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Evidence has been given to us here that as to that twenty-five per cent who did not want treatment, that if you forced treatment on them it would not do them any good? — A. Yes; it may not do them any good, but it would do the rest of the popula- tion a tremendous amount of good. There is no reason why we should have tubercu- losis running at large any more than smallpox, in my opinion, not a bit more. That is, when a man has got the germs in his sputum. Q. On the same principle then, you would have to apply the same rule against civilians? — A. Quite. Q. You would have to extend it to everybody ? — A. Oh, certainly ; and if the soldier knew that treatment were compulsory he would bow to the inevitable. Q. You think that he would submit to it so that he would get out the sooner?^ A. Yes, I am quite satisfied that would operate in most of those cases. By the Chairman: Q. Have you any idea how many tuberculosis cases have disclosed themselves in this district? — A. You mean in training and from overseas? - Q. Yes; how many soldier tuberculosis cases have developed? — A. I haven't any exact idea. Q. Have you any idea how many returned men have come back to this district aflFected by tuberculosis? — A. I have not. Q. Are you able to get the figures ? I would like to know, for example, how many of your tubercular cases in this district were over in France; how many never left Canada: how many went as far as England? — A. I doubt very much if I could get these figures for you, but I believe that figures of that sort have been obtained at Ottawa. Q. That is the place to get them ? — A. Yes. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Have you any suggestions to make to this Committee to enable it to give better treatment to returned soldiers? — A. I think that we have here in Toronto the very best possible medical staff which could be obtained; I have in the hospitals here a house staff of the brightest younger men that I could get. I have a visiting staff of the brightest practitioners in Toronto, (the consultants of 5 to 10 years from now) and the brightest consultants in Toronto. I think a better scheme in the way of medical treatment could not be devised. Mr. Ross : I do not want to confine you to medical treatment, but any suggestions you can give that will help us to deal with this problem. By Hon. Mr. Mtirphy : Q. Along the line of our establishing the soldier in private life? — A. Well, I do not know. I have not anything definite at present. [Major F. J. Munn.] 678 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Pardee : Q. Do you believe in the colonization scheme — that is, in colonies of soldiers? — A. I would not express any opinion on that. I have not given it any thought. I have definite opinion on Q. Tubercular colonies? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. But this wider problem you have not had time to consider? — A. I have almost slept with the problem for thirteen months and I feel that I know something about it. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Would you advocate the forming of colonies of tubercular patients? — A. Yes. I hope to have a town plan to present in further connection with that colonies scheme of mine, which I believe Colonel Marlow presented to the Committee and I would be very glad to leave a blueprint with you. I expect to have it tomorrow. Q. And you will give us all the particulars about it? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Do you mean a colony with women as well as men? — A. The colony scheme as a self-supporting proposition has been tried in various places, but it has neyev beeq feasible because there was considerable doubt as to whether it would be self-supporting or not, but with the backing of the Federal Government or, in other words, with the fact that each man will receive a pension of $200 or $300 or $400 a year, I see no reason in the world why the project could not only be self-supporting but prosperous. The man's effort could be directed in a colony, and his earning powers made far greater than they could be under any other scheme, particularly such as having him go back into competitive life in the city. J By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Would you make it compulsory for him to go on the colony? — A. No, the features of it would have to be attractive enough to hold him. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. You have not answered my question as to whether you would admit women to that colony? — A. In connection with that I meant to say that I felt that if it could be once established with the backing of the pensions, as my proposition would be, that it would be a comparatively short step to establish it as a working scheme for the civilian patients, but I do not include the women in this way, that I think that a man's family, where he is married, should be brought to him when he goes to the colony. Q. Where he is already married? — A. Yes. Q. But in the case of the unmarried man? — A. There would be community buildings for those. Q. They would be separated entirely? — A. When in the colony. Q. Mr. Pardee asked you a little while ago a question that I don't think you answered, and that is, do you think as a member of the Army Medical Corps, that that corps would look after this matter of reception, treatment, care, training and re- education of wounded, disabled and convalescent members of the Canadian Expedi- tionary Forces as well as it is looked after by the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. I believe it could be very well looked after indeed if there were proper direction of the medical service. Q. If there were proper direction of the medical service? — A. Yes. Q. You think there is not proper direction of the medical service at the present time? — A. No. [Major F. J. Munn.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 679 Q. Do you think the Army Medical Corps would be able to look after technical and vocational training as well as -a commission appointed especially for that purpose? — A. That is not a Medical Corps matter, that is a separate matter. Q. Then you would not include the re-education and training of convalescents at all in your scheme of looking after these men by the medical corps? — A. Not at all. Q. "Well, I am trying to find out what it is? — A. I would say decidedly the voca- tional work is absolutely necessary. Q. And you think it could be as well done by having the whole thing under the control of the Army Medical Corps as it is by having the matter in the hands of a commission especially appointed for that purpose? — A. I have not thought about that at all, sir. I have not formed an opinion on it as a matter of fact. Q. Then you would not like to have it put down as an expression of your opinion that in your opinion the Army Medical Corps could have looked after the whole subject just as well without the Hospitals' Commission as with it? — A. Let me put it in another way. The Commission has unquestionably done some very valuable work. But the matter of co-relating the vocational work in this scheme, outside of what has been going on, has not received any consideration from me whatever. Q. You think then that it is an advantage to have the Military Hospitals' Com- mission? — A. Unquestionably so far as the introduction of these various alleged branches are concerned. Q. You said just now that in your opinion there was something wrong with the direction of the medical service? — A. Yes. Q. That is the Army Medical service? — A, Yes. Q. What is wrong in your opinion? — A. Lack of direction. Q. Could you explain that any more fully? — A. Well it is not in my place, as a medical and military officer, to offer criticism Q. Then don't do it. You say it would be criticising your superior officer? — A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. How long has this lack of accommodation been noticeable in the hospitals? — A. Mainly recently. Q. How recently? — A. To a minor extent it has been going on for probably two months, but it has become — at least I believe it has become very acute recently. Q. In looking over the evidence given by the chief officer of the Military Hospitals' Commission I notice some questions that were submitted by Mr. Pardee, and he quoted a newsp&per article which reads as follows: — " Thousands of disabled Canadian soldiers who are unfit for further service at the front but who have sufficiently recovered from their wounds to permit of their return to Canada are being detained in Britain because the Military Hospitals' Commission of Canada has failed to provide the necessary accommo- dation in the Dominion for the care of the wounded and because adequate arrangements have not been made for the return of these men to civil life." Then Mr. Pardee asked: "I want you to make it clear to the committee to what ext3nt that statement is true, because the public have a right to know the facts?" Then Mr. Thompson answers : " The statement is not at all true. We have arrange- ments on foot for the provision of 10,000 beds in Canada at this time. We have been in constant communication with Sir George Perley and from time to time have been making preparations to furnish beds for those men when they return. Of course, you understand that an hospital is not like Jonah's gourd, it does not grow up [Major F. J. Munn.] 680 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS over night. It takes time to provide the necessary aceoramodation." The examination proceeds " Q. I understand. " All I am trying to do is ascertain what is true and what is not? — A. The fact is this: never at any time have we been short of beds for the men they sent from England. " Q. You say that every man sent from England up to date has been taken care of? — A. Yes, he has been taken care of." Do I infer from your remarks that there is a difference of opinion as to the proper care of these out-patients? Is your statement to the effect that they would get much better treatment if they were in hospitals, and does the Military Hospitals Commis- sion admit that the out-treatment is sufficient in meeting the requirements? — A. I think the general consensus of opinion is that they should be in-patients. Q. That is the consensus of opinion, but have the Military Hospitals Commission acted as if they felt these men were receiving proper treatment out? — A. I don't just get your question. Q. You say the consensus of opinion is that they ought to be treated in the hospitals, yet they have been given permission to go home, and have been treated as out-patients. Was that the view of the Military Hospitals Commission in regard to the treatment? — A. It was almost a necessary thing, in a way. On account of the rapid expansion of the work there were bound to be some places where it was impossible to provide sufficient accommodation. Q. Dr. Thompson states that we have on foot provision for 10,000 beds in Canada at this time ? — A. I am not able to express an opinion on the broad aspects of the work. I am not familiar with that. I am speaking only of conditions as I see them here in front of me. Q. You mean in this district? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. I would like to ask you one more question in connection with the administra- tion of the Army Medical Service. Colonel Potter is the head, is he not, of the Army Medical Service ?^A. Yes. Q. Well, Colonel Potter stated before the Committee, in his evidence given at Ottawa, that he had no power; all he could do was to recommend. Now, if that is a true statement of the condition of the head of the Army Medical Service, does it not follow, as a natural and positive result, that his department cannot be properly adminis- tered? In other words, do you not think that the officer at the head of a department must necessarily have the power to control that department if he is going to have efficient management of it ? What would be your opinion ? — A. I think unquestionably you are right, sir; otherwise he would only be a figurehead. Q. Exactly. Otherwise he is only a figurehead. I do not know whether you read Colonel Potter's evidence ? — A. I did not, sir. Q. I remember perfectly well that Colonel Potter, the head of the Medical Branch, stated in his evidence that he had no jwwer, he simply recommends. Do orders which emanate from the Medical Department in Ottawa come by direction of the head of the Department or through the Adjutant General's office? — A. I did not grasp your- question. Q. Let me repeat it. Do orders relating to medical matters come directly from the medical head or are they given by the General in Command or through the Adjutant's office? — A. All orders come through the Adjutant-General's office to the G.O.C. of the District. Q. Even upon medical matters? — A. Yes, Q. So that the officer at the head of the medical department has really no control over it? — A. As to that I do not know. I am not conversant with conditions in Ottawa. [Major F. J. Munn.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 681 Q. You have been in the Army Medical Corps for ten or twelve years? — A. When a matter comes to our observation, we reach a conclusion upon it and a recommenda- tion is forwarded to Ottawa. Q. You do not bother to find out how these communications come or the medium through which they come? — A. The channel of communication is direct from the G.O.C. of the District to the Secretary of the Militia Council, and the answer back will be from the Adjutant General or from some official for him. Q. In other words, you get no orders from Colonel Potter as the head of the Army Medical Service at all? — A. He may sign the letters. Q. But he does not give the orders? — A. He signs the letters as the D.G.M.S. for the Adjutant-General. Witness discharged. !Mr. T. J. LeCras, Superintendent of the Artificial Limb Institute, Toronto. By the Chairman: Q. Are you in charge of the establishment where artificial limbs are made for the returned soldiers? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Where is it situated? — A. 426 Yonge Street, at the present time. Q. Are you giving up your entire time to this work? — A. With the exception of one hour per day. Q. What previous experience had you in that kind of work? — A. I had 27 years' experience. Q. Where? — A. 12 years in Cleveland, Ohio, and the balance of the time at Authors & Cox, Toronto. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. When you say " balance of the time," how long would that be ? — A. Fifteen years. By the Chairman: Q. Then it is your profession? — A. Yes, sir, I have done nothing else during my entire life. Q. What is your staff number at the present time? — A. Seven, sir. Q. Are you able to keep up with the demand? — A. No, sir. Q. What steps are being taken to enlarge your output? — A. The difficulty has been largely that Ave could not get help, but now I think we are at the stage where we can manage all right. I shall have two, in fact, three men coming within a week or less than a week. Then the staff will be such that -we shall, I think, have a production sufficient to meet the demand. Q. Are you going to continue to manufacture at the same place or will you move to the Booth Memorial Hall? — A. No, sir, I understand that we are to continue at our present place. Q. You expect to continue your artificial limb making where you are? — A. Yes, sir, for some time. Q. Have you the necessary accommodation to enlarge, if you wish? — A. Plenty, sir. Q. Have you had many complaints from men about long delays in getting their artificial limbs? — A. Yes, sir, I have had some. Q. You saw this letter (holding up newspaper clipping) which appeared in the Toronto Star on the 20th of February? — A. Yes, sir. Q. The writer of this says he has suffered the loss of a leg and has been waiting for mouths to be fitted with a limb at the Government limb factory here in Toronto, and [Mr. T. J. LeCras.] 682 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS he adds : " but I cannot obtain any information from the superintendent of the limb factory as to when I shall get my limb." Do you know of that particular case? — A. I have my opinion of that, but whether it is safe to express it or not is another. I don't think any returned soldier is responsible for the letter. Q. Not for that letter ?— A. No, sir. Q. Well, has any returned soldier been kept waiting for months for his limb? — A. No, sir. Q. How many have you now on order? — A. I have orders for 17 men. By Hon. Mr. Marcil : Q. Do those orders come from this district or from the whole of Canada? — A, They cover the whole of Canada. By the Chairman: Q. Eeturned soldiers come here from all over Canada to be fitted with artificial limbs? — A. I understand so. Q. Do the men themselves come to you? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And you fit the limb to them, and the limb is tried out here for a while in order that the men shall learn to be accustomed to use it? — A. -The men wear their limbs from one to two weeks, they report from day to day for the purpose of having such alterations made as may be necessary, and finally the limbs are finished at the men's requests. Q. And if a man is not satisfied, can he come back and have the limb readjusted or be given a new one ? — A. Yes, sir. He does not receive a final board until he is willing to place his signature over a statement that everything is satisfactory. Q. You say you have applications for limbs for 17 men? — A. Do I understand that you mean any limb, or a leg or an arm? Q. A hand or foot or leg or arm? — A. At the present time I have received 55 orders for arm amputations — that is above the shoulder, above the elbow and below the elbow. I have completed 21, have under construction 3, waiting 29,. and 2 cancell- ments. Q. Those are arms only? — A. Those are arms only. I have received 103 amputa- tions at the thigh, knee bearing and below the knee. Out of this 103 I have com- pleted 40 and have under construction 46, waiting, 17. Q. Do you mean you have not commenced the legs at all? — A. The orders are on file, not at the factory yet. Q. You really have the 46 and the 17 waiting? — A. Yes, sir. But there would be quite a number of that 46 very close to completion. Q. That is you have had 103 orders, and you have filled 40 and have 63 unfilled? — A. Yes. sir. Q. How long will it take you to fill that 63 ? — A. The number differs from day to day, because I may be putting on one, two or three to-morrow in complete condition, while a week may go by and I may not have any complete. Q. How long would these 63 take you to complete if you had no more orders ? — A. That is rather difiicult for me to say. I cannot give you a positive opinion. Q. A couple of months? — A. Probably so. Q. And in that time you will have a great many more? — A. Yes, but I will have four men coming and two machines, which means Q. Increasing your output? — A. Very much so, to the extent of three or four a day. I hope inside of two weeks to be producing that. Q. To be turning out three or four limbs a day? — A. Yes, providing the men who are making these machines will keep their word as to delivery. Q. That will be three or four extra a day? — A. The capacity will be three to four each day; that will be the maximum capacity. [Mr. T. J. LeCras/.]. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 683 Q. Probably you can fit out 25 men a week with arm or leg ? — A. I am not so sure about an arm. The matter of arm makers I do not know what to say about. The United States cannot procure a satisfactory arm maker. Q. Is tliat a special profession? — A. Most decidedly. Q. Quite distinct from leg making? — A. Yes. They can make something that looks like an arm; but it is a difficult proposition. Q. You are scouring the United States for competent men? — A. I have scoured the beehive of the United States, as it is called, for arm and leg makers, and I cannot find them. I went to Minneaiwlis, to St. Paul, and to Milwaukee, and I found that with few exceptions the shops were one man shops. The largest factory I saw in Chicago was tlie Eowley factory. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Have you any knowledge of the Eoyal Alexandra Institute in England? — A. Nothing more than what I have read in the reports. Q. They have a very much ^larger number to deal with than in Canada, and the patients themselves assist in the manufacture of the limbs. — A. I have two returned men now, sir, working. Q. Where a man gets an artificial leg, it has to be tested, I suppose, for a while before it is considered perfect? — A. He has to try it out for one or two weeks. They report every two days after putting it on in the rough. Q. Would it be better to have all these men under the same roof while you are providing limbs and testing the efficiency of the limb? — A. I find in testing, sir, that if they are out in public life and have their minds occupied they do better than if theif whole attention is centred on their limb. Q. They do better outside?— A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. V hat do you base your statement on that you do not think that the newspaper item referred to was written by a returned soldier? It is signed "A Eeturned Cripple." Why do you think that is not so? — A. In the first place, looking over my records when that letter came into the public papers, I have no knowledge of any one man coming to me with any complaints other than that he might in an offhand way say: "This is a long time." Q. Well, then, he goes on to say here : (Reads) : — I can buy a leg just as good for fifty dollars from a dozen Canadian and American firms, and why are we not allowed the best leg that is made even if it costs $100, when the Government is giving artificial arms that are made by an American firm, and cost $250, and are only an ornament when you get them. It is the general opinion among the boys who are waiting for the legs that somebody should be put in charge of the Government factory who will make something better than the old single socket wooden leg, when the Government has a factory for the purpose. Q. Is that the class of leg that you are manufacturing? — A. No, sir. Q. Yours is up to date? — A. It is up to date. Q. And the cost is what? — A. That depends upon the amputations, the cost of production. Q. I want to know what the ordinary* cost to the Government is of these limbs? A. As near as I can gather, between $35 and $40 for a leg with a market value of $110. Q. The Government buys them at $35 or $40? — A. That is outside of the over- head cost. Q. The Government pays the cost and it costs them about $35 or $40 plus over- head expenses? — A. Yes, as near as I can gather. [Mr. T. J. LeCras.] 684 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETUR'NED SOLDIERS Q. Well you are doing it. — A. Yes, but it has not been possible for me to arrive at the positive cost because of the little delays that the men require. For instance, if a man is making an artificial limb and two men come in requiring to be fitted or to have plaster of paris casts taken, that takes up some of the man's time, so that I cannot arrive at a positive cost until I have found that I have sufficient work to do to put a man on that work only. Q. Do you make a leg and render a bill for it to the Government ? — A. No, sir. Q. How do you get your money, whom do you charge? — A. I draw a salary, sir. Q. I see, you are just doing that for the Government? — A. Yes. Q. It costs in the neighbourhood of $50 a leg? — A. I would think so. By Mr. Middlelro : Q. What would a leg sell for if sold outside?— A. $85, $100, $110, or $120. Q. How does that compare with the leg you are making? — A. It is the best leg that is on the market, open for inspection to the best critic you can find. By Mr. Pardee : Q. It is manufactured entirely for the returned soldiers? — A. Yes, sir. My hours are from 9 to 12 and 2 to 5, and I am often there until 5.30 and sometimes until after 6. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. This institution was created by the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. Yes. Q. And you are an employee of theirs? — A. Yes. Q. At the time you were appointed what business were you engaged in — we know you were in the manufacture of artificial limbs, but were you managing a business of your ovra or connected with some other person? — A. I was managing the firm of Authors & Cox. Q. You had no business of your own? — A. No, sir. Q. You are the manager of another firm's business ? — A. I was managing my own business. Q. Is that firm still in existence? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Still manufacturing? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Are you still connected with it? — A. Financially yes; but I give no time to it other than one hour a day. Q. Is it in competition with the artificial limb you are now making? — A. Not at all, sir. By the Chairman : Q. It deals with civilian trade? — A. Yes, sir. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. There are no soldiers going to this firm for artificial limbs — A. No, sir, I am positive of it. j Q. What arrangement was made with you when you became Superintendent of the Military Hospitals Commission factory? — A. That I was to give the hours from 9 to 12 and 2 to 5. Q. To what? — A. To attend to the manufacture of the artificial limbs for the returned soldiers. Q. That is six hqurs a day. What remuneration were you to receive? — A. $2,500. Q. A year? — A. Yes. Q. What number of employees have you? — A. I have one arm maker, two leg makers. Q. Let us have the number, I do not care about the occupations? — A. Eight. Q. And how are they paid, at what rates? — A. They differ. One man we have at $6 a day ; the others work by the hour at 45 to 50 cents an hour. [Mr. T. J. LeCras.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 685 Q. There was no long term arrangement made with them? — A. We have only yearly contracts with three men. Q. And the others are just hired by the day? — A. Yes, roughers. I would like the gentlemen of the committee to understand that I have but about two or three artificial limb makers on my own staff; the others are all roughers and office men. Q. What was the reason for the establishment of this factory specially, were there no others engaged in the manufacture of artificial limbs? — A. I do not know. By Mr. Middlelro: Q. How many employees have you in your own factory, limb makers? — A. Two. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Did you ever have more than two? — A. No. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Do you know of any other factory in Canada that employs three or four? — A. I do not think that there are any factories in Canada employing more than three limb makers. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. You mentioned the number of the building on Yonge street which you occupied; what wa,s the number? — A. No. 426 Yonge street. Q. Who owns the building? — A. I could not tell you. Q. Who can tell us that? — A. Mr. Eiddell, the secretary, has the handling of that matter. Q. And you go there from 9 till 12, and from 2 to 6 every day? — A. Yes. Q. Who is in charge when you are not there? — A. The office man and the shop foreman. By the Chairman: Q. Are you close to the central military hospital, the Bishop Strachan School? — A. Yes, in the same block. Q. So that when we visit the Bishop Strachan Hospital we can visit your factory ? —A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. What was the reason for the centralization of this artificial limb making in Toronto? — A. I do not know. Q. As I imderstand it, a Halifax man, requiring an artificial limb has to come to Toronto to get it? — A. Yes. Q. And it is the same with the man who lives in Winnipeg? — A. Yes. Q. Why is that? — A. It is not good policy to supply a leg to a man unless you have the patient there with you all the time. Q. Why could you not do it as well in Halifax as in Toronto? — A. You cannot find competent limb makers in all these places. Q. Is not the Government supplying the money for these limb makers that you have here in Toronto? — A. Yes. Q. And could it not supply the money just as well to employ men for the same purpose at Halifax? — A. That hardly comes within the sphere of my knowledge; I do not know about that. Q. We have asked, other witnesses about that, but nobody seems able to inform us on that point. Are there other firms engaged in the manufacture of artificial limbs in other cities? — A. Yes, but this is not a firm. Q. Are there not some firms in INLontreal engaged in that business? — A. Yes. Q. And they are old established firms? — A. There are two. Q. Would it not be possible to make arrangements with firms such as those? — A. I do not know ; I could not speak on that subject. I do not know anything about it. [Mr. T. J. LeCras.] 686 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. How did you come to be engaged as superintendent of this factory? Did you apply for the position? — A. Not directly. Q. Did you apply for it indirectly ?— A. I went down to visit the Secretary, Mr. Riddell, several times, because I felt there was going to be a contract given for the making of limbs; the time came when I found that the Government intended to get a factory and make these limbs in it instead of letting a contract. I cannot tell you directly what wording there was, or how it came about. Q. But it was brought about in this indirect manner by your going directly to the Secretary? — A. I went there and tried to see if contracts were going to be given out, or how the thing was going, and also by writing to Ottawa several times as I did, and visiting Ottawa. Q. And by reason of these interviews with the Secretary did you find out that they required a superintendent, or did you apply for the position at all? — A. I cannot quite recall how it came about, unless it was that the question was asked me. I think the thought was to take over some one firm, and to appoint the man who was running it to supervise it. If I am not mistaken Mr. Kiddell asked me if it were possible to take over our shop, and I answered yes, and the men with it. Q. He asked if they could take over your shop? — A. Yes, that was the commence- ment of it, and from that time on. there were no further developments, until I was notified that I was appointed, but I came into contact with nobody else but those I have told you of. Q. What committee was it you spoke of? — A. Dr. Bruce, Dr. Galley, and some one else. Q. All military men, or were they Military Hospitals Commission men? — A. I cannot quite say who they were, they were appointed by the Military Hospitals Com- mission, I think. Q. To do what? — A. To see what facilities we had, etc. Q. Where is their office? — A. They have no office. Q. Where did you see this gentleman who was the Secretary ? — A. At his office. Q. Where is that?— A. In the Board of Trade Building. Q. What was he secretary of? — A. The Military Hospitals Commission. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. He is the local secretary ? — A. I think, so. By Hon. Mr. Murphy : Q. How did your remuneration come to be fixed? — A. I believe Mr. Riddell asked me what salary I would accept in the event of the Commission wanting to engage my services. I told him $3,000 a year, and he said that was too much. I replied that in order to leave my business, it would not pay me to accept the position for less, that was provided the Commission wanted my entire time. Following that up, he said, " Supposing we gave you an hour a day so that you could attend to your own affairs until such time as you could close up your business, or appoint a man to carry it on, would you not take less?" I replied that I would, provided the Commission gave me from twelve to two o'clock each day, which they agreed to. I appointed my manager, and there are days I never see my own factory at all. Q. How long have you been in this position under the Military Hospitals Com- mission? — A. Eight months. Q. Did that gentleman of whom you speak as the secretary of the Military Hospi- tals Commission have any previous experience in the manufacture of artificial limbs ? — A. No, sir. Q. Or did any of these other gentlemen of whom you have spoken as far as you know ? — A. They are medical men, and naturally they would have knowledge of it. Q. But I am speaking of the manufacture of artificial limbs? — A. No, sir, they did not. [Mr. T. J. LeCras.] RECEPTION, TREATMEST AXD RE-EIJLCAT1(J.\ 687 Q. None of them have been engaged in the manufacture of artificial limbs? — A. None. Q. AVho looks after the overhead expenses? — A. That is attended to at the office. Q. Who would know about that, who could give us information with reference to that? — A. I do not know. Q. Are you not the superintendent? — A. Yes, but all accounts are sent to the secretarj-'s office. Q. Who looks after the installation of machinery, the furnishing of equipment, and all of that, by whom is that done? — A, I attend to that, to all the requirements and the equipment itself. Q. Then you really determine the running expenses do you not? — A. Yes. Q. Have you any statements which would show what the cost of production is? — A. No, I was not advised until 10 o'clock this morning that I would have to meet this Committee, and I have no office help until within the past few weeks, during which I have had a returned man for a few hours every day. Q. How long have you had that assistance ? — A. Perhaps for less than two months, I have had one of the returned men every day. Q. Then is it not possible that so much of your time has been taken up in attend- ing to your duties that what is suggested in the letter read by Mr. Pardee, could happen and that some one of the returned soldiers' cases had been overlooked and put off for a short time? — A. No, the reason, if any man has been put off has been because of lack of labour. It is impossible to get 1^-makers; I can get toughers, but not leg- makers. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. Expert men are difficult to get? — A. You can't find them. j By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : I Q. Would you be good enough to make up a statement, I recognize that if you only received word to attend the Committee at 10 o'clock this morning, it was impossible for you to make up any statements for our information — will you make a statement showing the general overhead expenses, the running expenses, and the cost of production in this factory? — A. Yes. Q. And you can lay it before this Committee during the sittings here? — A. I can get it from ^Ir. Riddell's office, I presume. 1 Q. Will you give us also a statement as to when each of these applications for 55 arms and 103 legs were received? — A. I can get that for you, giving the exact date I received each order. 1 Q. And will you give us also the date on which each of those 21 arms and 40 I legs, which have been completed, were finished. I would like to know how long it took to furnish each soldier with these limbs. A. If we take as August Sth the date of opening up the factory or institute. j Q. August Sth, 1916?— A. Yes. Up to the present time I have had one arm I maker to cope with this work. ' Q. That may be true, but maybe you should have had more; I just want to find out how long it would take you to serve twenty-one men for arms, and forty-one men for legs. We will probably have to look to the United States for arm makers and leg makers. Could you give the committee this information, or tell us how to get it? — A. Yes, I can give it to you just month by month. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Give us a list of the artificial limb-makers in Canada, and the number of employees, and where those factories are located? — A. I am afraid that I could not igive you that without visiting them. Q. You are closely in touch with the trade, are you not? — A. Yes, I could get it from the directory mainly. [Mr. T. J. LeCras.] 688 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. And the list of where the factories are located in Canada ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And where you could get a number of employees at each of those points? — A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Middlelro : Q. Have you asked any of those other factories if they could send you some employees? — A. I have had advertisements standing out week after week throughout the whole of Canada in order to get men from Canada before I struck the United States. Q. You had advertisements all through Canada asking for those special limb- makers? — A. Yes, sir; Winnipeg, Calgary, Vancouver, down through Halifax, Mont- real, Ottawa. I know there are no factories in a lot of those places, yet I put adver- tisements in the paper, and made many efforts myself after using up $21 in small inch and inch and a half advertisements. By the (-Chairman: Q. Have you ever tried in the United States? — A. Yes, I have three advertise- ments now — Rochester, Pittsburg and Buffalo. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. You are convinced now that you cannot get any more? — A. I am making no particular effort now, because I have three good men coming in. Q. Do you think those would be sufficient ? Would it not be advisable to get some apprentices to work? How long does it take a man to learn this occupation? — A. Might I say that I cannot answer your question directly just now; but if there were some method that I could be advised of how many amputations were coming from time to time I could be better prepared. They come right on me all at once, within a day or two. I don't know whether this is possible or not, but I think I could handle the business much more quickly and expeditiously if I had that knowledge. Q. It is possible to have have some of the limbs partially prepared — prepared in the rough so that you could keep a certain amount of work ahead, irrespective of the man who was to use it? — A. I hope to have within a month a machine that will turn out 25 shin pieces per hour. We have already ordered that. Q. Do you think it would be advisable to get some men to work as apprentices — say a returned soldier who might like to go into that occupation — and educate him to be a limb-maker? — A. I have two now. Q. According to your evidence it would seem to me that you would have to get some limb-makers? — A. I have no knowledge how much I might expect, and do not know whether to get 100 or 200 or 500 parts out. I only know that the report that Mr. Riddell handed me some time ago By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Are artificial limbs admitted free to this country? — A. They are now, and have been for some years, and parts. Q. Are any quantity imported from the United States and Europe? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Can you tell us how many are imported? — A. I heard indirectly, from what I consider authentic sources, that there are about $2,000 worth of artificial limbs of United States make coming into Canada each month. Q. How many legs and arms would that be? — A. About $100 apiece, approxi- mately. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Do you mean for returned soldiers? — A. No, sir; civilians. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. In view of the large number that are requested, could not artificial limb- makers now situated in other parts of Canada be employed in this work? Are there [Mr. T. J. LeCras.] I RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 689 not in Montreal and other cities in Canada artificial limb-makers to whom this work could be passed around so that these men should not be compelled to wait for those limbs? Don't you think it would be fair to the manvif acturers ? — A. I believe, as a manufacturer, that we can get a larger production by concentration. Q. Suppose you were to get a very large number of orders in the next two or ' three months, that you would be unable to fill, don't you think it would be fair to the soldiers to pass those orders around to the other limb-makers in other parts of Canada rather than keep all the orders here in Toronto? — (Isfc answer.) By the Chairman: Q. Are there men able to make them in other parts of Canada? — A. The type of leg we are manufacturing are not made generally. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Are there not limb-makers in Montreal? — A. Yes, but they are two. By Hon. Mr. 3Iurphy: Q. Did you not make that type of leg in your business before you were attached to the military hospitals ?— A. No; Authors & Cox did not produce such a leg as is being produced to-day, and not such a limb is being produced as to strength and everything else. Q. Is it a new design or a new patent?— A. The joints are designed so that they will take the wear. Q. Is it a new patent? — A. Yes; the ankle-joint is known as a cordless ankle- joint. Q. A recent patent ? — A. Not a recent patent, a recent joint. Q. Who holds the patent?— A. There are several kinds; there is the Hall, Foster and Hanger. Q. This particular one you are speaking of, who holds that ? — A. There are three — the Hanger, the Hall, and the Foster. Q. Are you using all thijee? — A. No. Q. I am speaking of the one you are using; don't mind the others; who holds the patent for the" one you are using? — A. There is no patent covering it. Q. You said a moment ago that there was; are you using any part which is patented? — A. No, sir. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. I met a soldier to-day with a crutch, without a leg ; what is the explanation of that? Is that man waiting for his leg to be made? — A. I understand that the policy ~ of the Hospitals Commission is that no man will be fitted for an artificial limb until some months after amputation. That man may arrive here six weeks after an ampu- tation ; the stump may not be ready for it. Q. Is that man brought to Toronto until he is readj' for the leg to be fitted? — A. I could not tell you that. By the Chairman: Q. Have you ever asked the Hospitals Commission to endeavour to secure for you some idea of the number of men that might be expected here, amputation cases, next month or the month after next? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have they failed to do that? — A. In a sense it seemed to be impossible to gather that. Q. They must know how many men are coming from England? — A. But they do not know in time enough to give me sufficient time to get my parts together. Q. They would know as soon as the men left the other side; that would be two weeks at least before they were here. Would that be any help to you? — A. Yes. 28277—44 [Mr. T. J. LeCr.ial 690 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.R.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Brigadier General Mason: Q. How do the limbs you turn out compare in efficiency with those manufactured in other places? You say there are no patents for those you are using. Are there patents for those that are made elsewhere? — A. You will find a large part of the arti- ficial limb, whether it be a leg or an arm, these parts that are patented are more or less intricate affairs that very often should not be used. For instance, I got one yesterday from a maker on paper. The drawings and specifications look all right, but when you come down to the practical side it is all wrong. It simply shows a small screw for adjustment in the front, whereas we take the bearing at the back for the knee joint. That is a patented joint. I might have a dozen or twenty patented joints, which do not dwell on the stability of the leg rather than on some fantastic idea of securing a joint to the leg. Q. You have a knowledge of the different limbs that are made. You know them? — A. Yes, I know them better than my own name. Q. Do you think our men are getting the most efficient -and serviceable article? — A. I am satisfied of it. Q. They may not know the difference, but you do ? — A. I know the difference. I know every joint is practically packed. Q. Have you any complaints from the men after they have been furnished with the limbs that they are not suitable or sufficiently serviceable? — A. No, I have not heard one complaint. Q. In the case of an arm amputated, where it is taken out at the shoulder, can you furnish an arm which can be used ? — A. They are of very little value, other than filling in the coat sleeve. Q. Not much value? — A. No. Brigadier-General JMason : I saw one where a man with the muscles of his shoulders could move the arm, and I saw him light a cigarette. By Mr. McCurdy: Q. How does the quality of the leg made under your direction compare with the limbs fitted in England? Have they come under your observation? — A. Yes. Q. How do they compare in quality? — A. I think the legs manufactured here are better. Q. Have you had occasion to observe any of the limbs that have been fitted in England? — A. I have had 16 sockets to take off the Eowley leg which is made in England. Q. Have you had any occasion to refit the leg? — A. 16 cases. Q. In any of those cases which you refitted, was the defect due to bad workmanship, or to limbs having been fitted too soon? — A. The difficulty is not so much with the leg as the fact of fitting them on what we call a green stump. Q. So that it is better not to have a leg for some time, not until the stump is ready? — A. Or we shrink it — put on shrinking material. Witness discharged. Mr. E. H. ScAMMELL, recalled and further examined. I By the Chairman: Q. Is it in contemplation on the part of the Hospitals Commission to have other places besides Toronto for making and fitting on legs? — A. It is under discussion. Witness discharged. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 691 Dr. Capt. C. B. Fakrau, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. Are you a member of the Army Medical Corps? — A. Yes. Q. Have you been so for some time? — A. Only since November. Q. Prior to that time you were a civil practitioner? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And have you specialized on cases of insanity? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That is your particular line of work then under the Hospitals Commission at present? — A. Yes. Q-. Will you tell us just briefly what you are doing for returned soldiers who come back here suffering from shell shock, or who are unbalanced, or whose mental condition is unsound? — A. I do not think I could add anything, sir, to the testimony of the medical superintendent. Col. Thompson. I think he outlined that in his testimony. The cases are differentiated at Quebec. The hopelessly insane cases go to the province from which the man enlisted. The milder cases, including a great many of the so- called neurasthenics and shell shock cases and that sort of thing also go to their respec- tive provinces, where they are admitted to the convalescent homes I believe. In between there are certain other cases, doubtful cases, possibly mild cases of insanity, and some severer shock cases that are diverted to Cobourg. Those are the three distributions. Q. Are you familiar with the conditions at Montreal? — A. No, I have had very little, experience at Montreal. Q. You have not visited the Grey Nuns Hospital at Montreal? — A. I visited it once, but spent very little time there. Q. Do you think it desirable that men who are in a highly nervous condition should be subjected to the same treatment as ordinary convalescent patients and kept in the same hospital with them? — A. j\fy opinion would be that they should be segregated. Q. You think that where a number of patients come back, as in this case, to Toronto and Montreal, that they should be classified and that those that are in a ner- vous condition should be treated separately? — A. Based on civilian experience I would say, yes. sir. Q. Would the effect of discipline on men of that character be prejudicial to their recovery? — A. Irom what I have been able to observe and gather from the opinions of others who have had more experience the discipline is absolutely necessary. Q. What do you do with the shell shock cases? — A. The first and most important fhing in those cases is rest, fairly complete rest, in many cases isolation. Hydro- therapy also comes in, electricity suggestion and as soon as possible, occupation. Q. Where are they treated in this district? — A. I do not know how they are dis- tributed here. I believe in the convalescent homes. Q. Have you a special institution for that at Cobourg? — A. Yes. Q. You have them elsewhere as well I suppose? — A. Cobourg is the only institu- tion I believe devoted exclusively to the care of mental and nervous cases so far. Q. Are you familiar with conditions there? — A. Fairly. Q. How many cases are there there? — A. I should judge about 50. There may be a few more or a few less. I have not kept track in the last few weeks. Q. Of these some are hopelessly insane? — A. A considerable number. Q. Some are " border-land " cases? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And some are victims of shell shock? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Are they all together or separated? — A. There are three floors at the Cobourg Institution. Patients are admitted to what is called a reception ward, on the middle floor, and there they are under observation for a certain length of time; it maybe a few days, or it may be a week or two. If it turns out that the patient is hopeless, or a very disturbed mental case, he is sent to the top floor, where the more disturliod mental cases are kept. If he turns out to be a mild case, one that can be trusted with a certain amount of liberty, he is brought down to the ground floor, 28277— 44J [Captain C. B. Farrar.] 692 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS where lie has much more freedom. The shock cases as a rule are located on that floor. Q. Do you keep shell shock cases and these " border-laud " insane cases in the same building? — A. They are there, sir, yes. Q. Do you tbink that is desirable? — ^A. The whole question is so experimental that I should hate to give a positive answer. I should think, however, that a cer- tain amount of separation would be beneficial. In fact I believe it would be. .Q. When you come to look over "your insane and semi-insane cases, what are the fundamental reasons of their being insane? — A. Heredity and natural tenden- cies, natural development. Q. Epilepsy? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What else? — A. Cases of actual out-spoken insanity are almost all due to the inherited and natural constitution of the individual, coming on up from early life. Q. And to some other induced causes, I suppose? — A. To specific disease, alcohol and causes of that nature. Q. Syphilis and kindred diseases? — A. Yes, sir. Q. These account for most of your cases? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you any insane cases that have been to the front? — A. Do you mean cases that were insane before enlisting? Q. Have you any insane men who have actually been in France on active service^ — A. Yes. Q. Have you many who have been to the firing line? — A. I should say there are a fair number. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. The total number is not very large? — A. No, the total number would not be very large. Q. I mean to say, the total number of insane cases you have is less than 50. — A. According to the English boards, from 10 to 12 per cent. Q. No, no. I mean the total number of those who have returned and are insane. The total number of insane is a very small one. One witness told us it was less than 50. — A. That would perhaps depend, sir, on t^ie definition. Taking the mental cases together — the mildest as well as the severest — there would probably be from 10 to 12 per cent of the returned men. Q. hat were you engaged in before you took up this work ? — A. I have been in this work for the past 15 years. Q. For whom have you been working, the Hospitals Commission or for the Government? — A. I suppose you might say for both. Q. Were you practising at the time you were engaged? — A. During the past summer I was down on the Rideau Lakes where I had charge of a private institution for shock cases. Previous to that I had been connected with hospitals in the States. Q. Up to last summer you were connected with hospitals in the States ? — A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. What experience have you had as an alienist? — A. Fifteen years' experience. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. What kind of hospitals were you connected with in the States? — A. Hospitals for mental diseases. Q. Where were they? — A. In Baltimore, Maryland, and Trenton, New Jersey. Q. Are you a Canadian? — A. No, sir. Q. What are the names of these hospitals? — A. The Sheppard Hospital in Balti- more, the John Hopkins Hospital and Medical School, and the Trenton State Hos- pital and Princeton University. [Captain C. B. Farrar.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 693 Q. How did you come to get your present position? — A. I came up here during the summer to take charge of the convalescent camp down on the Rideau Lakes for the experience in military psychiatry, and I became very much interested in it and made further inquiries. One step led to another, and finally I found my way to Golonel Thompson, who advised my coming into the service. Q. Was this institution on the Rideau Lakes a private hospital? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Managed by whom? — A. It was a donation from the Richardson estate, main- tained by Miss Agnes Richardson. Q. Operated in connection with returned soldiers? — A. Yes. Q. And your coming up there in the first place was for experience? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You never had any connection with military matters before, and therefore you were not conversant with these cases of shell shock? — A. Not previously. By the Chairman: Q. You came to learn and stayed to teach? — A. I came to learn and stayed to learn. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. I think you said you were at John Hopkins University. — A. Yes. Q. In what connection? — A. I was associate in psychiatry for several years. Q. Associate to the professor? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Are you a graduate of any Canadian University? — A. No, sir. Witness discharged. Mr. W. W. NiCHOL called, sworn and examined: By the Chairman : Q. You are, I understand. General Vocational Officer under the Military Hos- pitals Commission of the province of Ontario? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Your jurisdiction extends throughout the entire province? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And your headquarters are where? — A. In Toronto. Q. You might, in your own way describe to the Committee what you are doing and attempting to do in vocational training for the returned men in your district? — A. I have under my charge the hospitals By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. First state what your experience has been prior to starting this work? — A. 1 organized the Evening Technical School at Ottawa four years ago. Up to that time I had been a Collegiate Institute Teacher and principal of High Schools. For the last eight years I was connected with the Ottawa Collegiate Institute as mathematical instructor and previous to that I had been principal and Mathematical Master of the Listowel High School. I have specialist standing in mathematics, and am an honour graduate in mathematics and physics of the University of Toronto. I may say that the Ottawa Evening Technical School was an organization of 1,400 pupils and 35 teachers. By the Chairman: Q. If there are no other preliminary questions, we will ask Mr. Nichol to tell us about his work in his own way? — A. In October, I gave up the principalship of the Ottawa Evening Technical School to take charge in Ontario of the vocation work for the soldiers. There were four or five centres: London, Hamilton, Toronto, liingston and Ottawa at that time. All the hospitals that I was given charge of then have [Mr. W. W. Nichol.] 694 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS since been organized and classes started in vocational subjects. In every hospital we have classes in what we call the preparatory course, viz.: elementary arithmetic, spelling, writing, what are usually called the three E's. I found in my Ottawa experience with the technical evening classes that about 10 per cent of the working men who were taking evening class work required preparatory instruction in ordinary common school lines, and I knew also that about 90 per cent of those who take up correspondence courses require this training before going on to higher technical work. Some courses were put on simply to interest the men and occupy their time for its good effect upon their health. Then, there were classes put on for improvement pur- poses. The men were given instruction along the lines of their own particular calling so that when they returned to civil employment their wage earning capacity would not be impaired and indeed in some cases we hoped that the men would be able to take better positions after they left the hospitals than before they entered. Q. That is better after they have left the war than when they entered it? — A. Yes. So that after they leave the hospitals they would be able to take better positions than previous to their enlistment. This improvement phase is, to my mind, one of the most important features of our work and deserves particular attention. Very soon this diffi- culty arose in Toronto, where we started; there did not seem to be adequate provision in the Spadina Hospital, nor yet at the College Street Hospital for vocational training. The Military Hospitals Commission obtained accommodation for classes in tele- graphy, commercial and elementary subjects in the Central Y.M.C.A., just opposite the College Street Hospital, and since that time classes have been running regularly in rooms fitted up by that association for their own night classes. Q. That is on College street ? — A, Yes. We tried to obtain accommodation in the nearby Lansdowne Public School because all the room in the Spadina Hospital was taken. We did for a time have classes there, but were very soon crowded out. How- ever, by the end of the year we had obtained rooms in the Lansdowne School, and classes have been carried on there quite successfully ever since. We obtained the co- operation of the Central Technical School authorities, and we have been sending quite a large number of our students there in industrial branches. We have at present 44 students attending the Central Technical School in various branches, which will be named later. There have passed through, or are at present attending the Central Technical School in Toronto 96 persons. In London the Central Convalescent Home, in the sun room of the hospital, equipment was put in for instruction in wood carving. One of the best wood carvers in Canada took charge of the work and has made a great success of it. We also had classes in preparatory and commercial subjects, and one or two men took telegraphy. Nearby is the Institute of Public Health, where lectures are given to the students of Western University, and we were able to obtain a class- room there for morning work, but not for afternoon classes, as the room was required. In London we have also co-operated with the Technical and Art School, and a num- ber of our pupils are going there. In Hamilton, at the Victoria Convalescent Home, we have one teacher who carries on the preparatory and shop work. Some of our men are going to a business college and a number are going to the Hamilton Technical and Art School, taking work in machine shop practice, drafting, electricity and other subjects. At Ottawa we have a teacher of our own in the preparatory and commercial subjects, and we are starting light shop work as well, and projecting a course on the automobile. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Where? — A. At the Sir Sandford Fleming Home, on Chapel street. At King- ston, we recently started classes in elementary subjects and carpentry. We have now classes in all our hospitals in preparatory work, commercial work and light shop work, but depend on the technical schools for special instruction. In view of this inquiry I wrote to the teachers of the different hospitals, and I have the figures for this week. In Spadina Military Hospital, Toronto, there are 167 in attendance; at the Central [Mr. W. W. Nichol.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 695 Military Hospital, 60 ; at the Central Military Convalescent Hospital, London, 45 ; at the Victoria Military Hospital, Hamilton, 18. From the Mountain Sanitarium, Hamilton, there are 6 who come down daily for work to the Technical vSchool. At the Sir Sandford Fleming Home, Ottawa, 24; at the Elmhurst Home, Kingston, 12, and there is one coming from the Kichardson Home in Kingston. There is a total of 333 at present attending classes in Ontario. Some 413, however, have been in attendance, or have passed through our classes since we began last October up to the end of February. The figures are as follows: Toronto, 265; Hamilton, 40; London, 77; Ottawa, 31; total, 413. There was an increase during February of 90, and no doubt if the increase in March is commensurate there will be a hundred more on the lists. By the Chairman: Q. What will make the increase, increased facilities? — A. Increased facilities and increased interest on the part of the men. By Mr. Middlebro : Q. A greater number inquiring? — A. Yes, sir. At Spadina we have a system by which every man as soon as the medical officer considers that he is fit to take up this kind of work is at once requested to report to the vocational officer himself or to an officer there, and he is assigned to one or other of the classes and his attendance is checked up daily. We have the good fortune to have on the staff of the Spadina hospital, a Captain McCarthy, who has taken a very great interest in this work. He has been in France, and so has great influence over the men, the men have great confi- dence in his judgment. He understands employment conditions very well, and is able to advise them; and since he has come on the staff the classes have been growing very rapidly, and a great many men are taking up just the courses that will do them good. The number enrolled in the various courses to the end of February in vocational work is as follows, that is in all our hospitals up to the end of February, for at that time the Kingston hospital had not been brought in. Preparatory, 214; Civil Service prepara- tion, 55, (20 of our students wrote on the Civil Service Examination on March 6) ; 40 took telegraphy, book-keeping, shorthand, and typewriting, 33; automobile engine and repair 75; carpentry and general woodworking 33; machine shop practice 79; electricity 17; industrial design 4; linotyping 1; fitting (mechanical fitters) 2; steam engine 1; gasoline engine instruction 1; show-card and sign-writing 9; one man is taking acety- lene gas welding, music 2; mechanical and architectural drawing 71; art metal 6; and woodcarving 26; making a total of 659. I have their names here if it is necessary to give them. The technical schools are helping greatly to relieve the situation. It has been our policy from the first to make the fullest possible use of the facilities given at these institutions with their well organized courses of study selected staff, and costly equipment that should not be duplicated. We have the hearty co-operation of the authorities in every case. Up to the present we have not been asked to pay anything for maintenance although possibly in the future we will be. Anything at the present time that has been asked for was in the way of books and additional instruments only. At Hamilton there are at present IS, in attendance at the technical school, and eight have passed through the classes, in shop mathematics, machine shop works, etc., mak- ing a total of 26. At London, there are 12 taking such subjects as machine shop work, electrical work, mechanical drafting, and kindred subjects, and 17 have passed through the classes, making a total of 29. At Toronto there are 44 in attendance, and 52 have passed through the classes, making a total of 96, making a grant total of 151 attending the technical schools. Q. Are those included in the list of 600 that you gave us? — A. Yes. A difficulty which we experienced at first was in getting a stable organization. Men's courses were constantly being interrupted by having to go for medical treatment. Sometimes they [Mr. W. W. Nichol.] 69g SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS had only been a day or two in class when they were given a final board and discharged. Sometimes they were sent to other hospitals. In future re-education students takmg months training for new occupations will form the nucleus of the classes and the classes will tend to become more permanent. Men who thought their discharge was irnmment did not care to enter courses as they thought they would not be able to carry them through to completion, and that still is a difficulty. I have every reason to believe that the interest in classes will grow. We have in Toronto, Hamilton and London at least, the very best instruction available along industrial and technical lines. As these schools are generally at some distance from the hospitals we requested transportations for them and the Military Hospitals Commission supply the necessary carfare. In regard to the re-education cases, there are a considerable number of men scattered through the country, who were discharged prior to the beginning of the vocational branch of the Soldiers' Aid Association. We are now bringing them to Toronto, and later will assemble them at other centres, and have their cases investigated. Each of these men is examined as to previous education and industrial experience by the vocational officer. There is also a survey made by the medical officer, and then a dis- abled soldiers training board is held consisting of those two officers and a member of the Commission, and recommendations as to the man's training are sent to Ottawa. If they are approved he is put on vocational pay, and his family is given support for the period that it will be necessary to give him his re-education. We send out letters to all the branches of the Soldiers' Aid Commission. Dear Sir, — From time to time there will no doubt come under your notice cases of returned men who would appear from the nature of their disabilities to be unable to resume the occupations they pursued previous to enlistment. It is the intention of this Commission to see to it that every man so unfortunate shall have an opportunity to learn some occupation suited to his condition and capacity, the support of himself and his family or dependents, during the period of re-training, and for one month after it is completed, being provided for according to scale. I have the honour, by direction, to request that my attention be promptly drawn to each case so that steps may be taken for immediate investigation. By the Chairman: Q. How do you determine whether a man is worthy of re-education? — A. In the first place on a man's medical record which comes from Quebec there is a notice that the man should consult the vocational officer and frequently there is a red seal drawing attention to the fact that he was very much disabled, and it would appear he should be re-educated. If such a man applies to me, or he has been recommended by our branch secretaries, he is brought to Toronto, or to some other centre. There is a survey, form "A " with regard to his family history, his previous education and his industrial experi- ence, that is to say what his principal trade was, what other work he did, whether or not he failed at it or made good, and what wages he had been making. Then the form " B " is filled out, which is a more personal one, is filled out, taking into account his intelligence and capacity, his reading habits, and various other things. Such as whether he has a clerical or mechanical type of mind. Then the medical officer makes a similar survey, pointing out to us certain occupations which the man could not with profit, but rather with danger to himself, take up, and suggesting some line that might be the best for a man in his present physical and mental condition, and which would make the fullest use of his remaining capacity. Then those three surveys are brought before the Disabled Soldiers' Training Board, which consists of the Vocational Officer, the Medical Officer, and a member of the Commission. The man's case is discussed and a recommendation made and sent to Ottawa for approval. [Mr. W. W. NIchol.] I RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 697 Q. And is passed on by the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. Yes. « Q. Then the proper arrangements are made, and the man's pay goes on? — A. Yes, and we make arrangements to give him the desired occupation. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. If there is insincerity in the statements in his application, is there any allow- ance to go on? — A. Up to this time I have had no such cases. Q. They are very satisfactory? — A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. How many men could you take care of? — A. Well, with Technical School here we could take care of a very large number, 300 or 400, I guess. Q. And in the other places how many, all told? — A. In Hamilton, in the regular Technical School there, I should say another 200 or 300; and in London probably about 150 or 200. Q. What other places are there? — A. There will be Whitby and Guelph. Q. That comprises all the technical schools that there will be? — A. Yfs. Q. Whitby will take care of how many? — A. There will be about 500 there in hospital, I suppose. By an alternating scheme, by using our class room in alternation, having a man go to a class room part of the day and then take shop-work another part of the day, we can take charge of another 100; from 150 or so. Q. IIow much of a staff do you expect to employ? — A. At present we have two of our men at London, and we have three men in the Technical School that are doing our work. In Toronto we have five men, but at the Technical School we have other five or six men doing our work. At Hamilton we have about three or four of the Technical School teachers, and one of our men. Q. How many at Whitby? — A. At Whitby I think we will require at least one preparatory teacher, one teacher of commercial work, one shop teacher, and possibly also other teachers might be required for other branches. Of course the staffing of Guelph has not reached anything like our final plans, but to my mind Guelph will help us out wonderfully in the re-educating end of the work. Q. You think that is going to be a No. 1 place? — A. I do, yes. By Mr Sutherland: Q. Are we at the present time providing any training along agricultural lines? — A. We are planning that when we go to Guelph we expect to have one of the faculty of the Agricultural College, which is nearby, and possibly senior students may assist from time to time. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. What proportion of returned men coming under your notice are ready to take up farming in order to return to farm work, or take up farming as an occupation? — A. Personally I have not had many, but Captain McCarthy, at Spadina avenue, says that he has had quite a number who are willing to return to the farm. I have, however, had young farmers ask for such special courses in stock-judging, soil-testing and work of that kind. By the Cliairman: Q. In order to better fit them to return to their own farms? — A. Yes, sir, and have had such requests even for learning barn framing and carpentry instruction, so that they can do their own building and repair work. By Mr. Pardee: Q. 1)6 you expect to prepare for agricultural training in Whitby too? — A. I think there will be some facilities there, and we intend to do a small amount. I look upon Whitby as a sort of preparatory school to Guelph. Q. To send them on to Guelph?— A. Yes. [Mr. W. W. NichoL] 698 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— V.E.P.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. That is, the agricultural students? — A. Yes, and the others also. That is to say, a man who is looking forward to machine shop practice instruction can begin in Whitby, studying mechanical draughting, shop mathematics and the theoretical side of his work, and then when he goes to Guelph he can carry the practical side. Q. I suppose you will do your re-education work at Guelph? — A. I think the bulk of it will be done there; that is mechanical training. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Is there anything you can suggest with a view of improving the lot of returned soldiers, that is not being done now? — A. To my mind the main thing is a biggei organization to cope with the serious problem of vocationally advising the large number of returned men who apparently are so disabled that they will require it. It takes a considerable time to sit down beside a man and talk over his previous educa- tion and his wishes for the future, especially in the condition in which some of them are physically; and unless it is not to be done in a perfunctory manner it is going to take up a very great deal of time. Personally the pressure of the work has been such that at present I have begun to feel it. I am asking to have assistant vocational officers appointed for the larger centres — men who are acquainted with technical school organization and understand industrial conditions well enough to be able to advise these men ; and in that way I hope to cope with the problem and to clear ofi the large number of those cases that may be now pending. Q. There are a large number of cases now pending for the purpose of determining what occupation a man should really follow? — A. There will be very soon. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Do you include in your training men who have been discharged? Take thf case of an ex-soldier, but who has been discharged from the army, do you give hiiH training also? — A. If he has been discharged, and has suffered disablement thai prevents him from going back to his old position, then we recall him and give him a course of instruction. I think, however, in future we will avoid that as much as possible. The men will receive their education while they are convalescing, and we will know better what to do for them when they are discharged. There will be no break in their courses and there will be no loss of valuable time. Q. But a man who has not been in a convalescent hospital, would you consider him a subject for training? — A. Well, not unless he is really so disabled that in the opinion Q. In the pamphlet that was issued there is a statement that if a man has lost his means of making a living he belongs to Class 2 in consequence of the survey; is he then a subject for the training? I refer to the clause which says that able-bodied men who are out of work at the time of enlistment, or who have been superseded in theii absence, and invalided and wounded men belong to Class 2, and that such will be taken bare of? — A. I have not had much to do with that particular class. Q. You deal with the men who are sent you? — A. Yes. Witness discharged. Committee adjourned until 10 a.m. Wednesday, March 21, 1917. [Mr. W. W. Nichol.] APPENDIX EXHIBITS Nos. 1, 2 and 3. G99 EXHIBIT No. 1. (Submitted ly Major-General W. A. Logie.) No. 2. — Specul Service Company, C.E.F. (List of how Men are Employed ending March 17, 1917.) Lance- Sgt.-Majors. P.S.I School of Musketry (Hamilton) School of Trench Warfare School of Bombing Police — Exhibition Camp Garrison Military Police Military Police (Hamilton) Fire Picquet — Base Hospital Headquarters Clerk's Mess In Detention In Hospital Administration Building. (Head- quarters) Grooms, batmen, cooks and chauffeurs Absent with leave Absent without leave Headquarters, Stationery Department Headquarters, Pay Office Company Sergeant-Majors 1 Orderly Room Duty Sergeants Duty Corporals Employed on stoves Canteen Tailor Quartermaster Stores I'loneer Buglers Shoenxakr.r Army Medical Corps, Simcoe St., and Base Hospital 71st Battery 182nd Battalion (Oshawa) Machine Gun School (Hamilton) Casualty Office " Special Training School P. V. O Brigade Staff (Hamilton) Military Hospital (Hamilton) Senior Ordnance Officer Barrack Fatigue for week Total Sergeants. Corporals. Co rporals Privates 8 8 1 3 8 17 35 2 1 24 4 1 1 10 17 26 2 25 5 1 1 1 1 2 1 2 2 5 1 2 56 3 1 ;::: 1 1 3 1 1 1 25 2 3 26 2 8 1 9 1 16 2 3 7 7 12 359 Captain 1 Lieutenants 5 N.C.O.. 27 Total 392 702 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS EXHIBIT No. 2. (Submitted hy Major-General W. A. Logic.) CANADIAN EXPEDITIONARY FORCE. Military District No. 2. After Orders by Major-General W. A. Logie, Commanding. Exhibition Camp, Toronto. Wednesday, February, 14, 1917. Administrative- Staff. No. 1. Creation of Mobilization Centres, C.E.F., Military District No. 2. In order that more care be exercised in regard to the enlistment of recruits, especially with reference to " over and under " age, by officers and n.c.o's engaged in recruiting, under H.Q. 593-3-7, dated 12-9-16, mobilization centres will be estab- lished at: — (a) Toronto (Armouries). (b) Hamilton (Armouries). (c) Sudbury, with effect from the 26th February, 1917. The purpose of these mobilization centres is: — (a) To examine before a Medical Board all recruits obtained for the C.E.F. (b) To attest those found medically fit. (c) To draft recruits found fit by medical boards to units for which recruited, or send them to units with lower standards of physical require- ments for which such recruits may be found fitted. (d) To return recruits found medically unfit for any branch of the ser- vice and those who do not come up to infantry requirements and are unwill- ing to transfer to units with lower physical standard to points at which they offered for enlistment. On and after the 26th February next, all recruits obtained in the District must be sent to one of these mobilization centres after preliminary examination before being attested and taken on the strength of a C.E.F. unit. All recruits obtained in the city of Toronto, counties of Peel, York, Sim'coe, Halton, Norfolk, Ontario, Dufferin, Grey and District of Muskoka will be sent to Toronto mobilization centre. All recruits obtained in the city of Hamilton, counties of Wentworth, Lincoln, Welland, Brant and Haldimand will be sent to Hamilton mobilization sentre. All recruits obtained in the districts of Sudbury, Algoma, Nipissing, Timis- kaming, Manitoulin Island, and Parry Sound, will be sent to Sudbury mobilization centre. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 703 All recruits on proceeding to mobilization centres will take with them a single copy of Attestation Paper (M.F. " W " 23) with "Questions to be Put Before Attestation " filled in, and the medical examination certificate on the reverse side of the form filled in and completed by the medical officer or civilian practitioner who conducted the preliminary examination. The rest of the form will be left blank. The recruiting officer should satisfy himself that the medical officer has received proper instructions regarding the conducting of such examinations from the A.D. M.S., M.D. No. 2. Pay:— Kecruits will be paid by the mobilization centres up to the time they are drafted to a unit of the C.E.F. A recruit having passed the preliminary medical examination is entitled to pay and allowances, as a private from the date of such examination, but if he wishes to remain at home for a few days before proceeding to mobilization centre, he will only be entitled to pay from the date of his leaving for mobilization centre, and not for the days he remains at home. If a recruit fails to pass the medical board at the mobilization centre he should at once be paid up to and including the earliest date he can arrive back at the point he offered for enlistment. If the recruit is declared fit by the Medical Board, he is to be credited with pay and allowances up to and including the date on which he is due to report to the unit to which he is drafted, given an advance to cover his needs, and transferred by the paymaster of the mobilization centre in the regular way; Part II of orders to be carefully prepared by the O.C. mobilization centre and sent to the Inspector of Pay Accounts, C.E.F., Toronto. The paymaster of a unit must not credit any recruit with pay until he receives the last' pay certificate from the mobilization centre. A refund of pay will he called for in the case of every man taken on a unit's strength after the 26th February, 1917, and whose attestation paper shows that he was not attested through a mohilization centre^ as the attestation will he irregular. Transport : — Transport warrants for recruits proceeding to mobilization centres can be obtained through the chief recruiting officer M.D. No. 2. Eeturn transportation will be issued at the mobilization centre. The hours at which recruits will be examined by Medical Board at mobilization centres are as follows : — Toronto. — 9 a.m. to 12.30 p.m. and 1.30 p.m. to 5 p.m. Hamilton. — 2 p.m. to 5 p.m. Sudbury. — 2 p.m. to 5 p.m. Each mobilization centre will make its own arrangements to accommodate over night recruits who may arrive by train after these hours; the cost of such accommoda- tion to be deducted from the recruits' subsistence allowance at time of settlement of the man's pay account at the depot. Uniform: — Kecruits will not be given uniform until they are drafted from the mobilization centre to units. Returns: — A certificate in the case of all men rejected is to be prepared by the IMedical Board; this certificate to be signed by the rejected applicant, the officer commanding mobilization centre, as well as by the president of the Medical Board. The form of certificate to be similar to that for deserters, (M.F.B. 356, new series). This form can be obtained at the district stationery office. 704 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS A weekly return of unfits is to be compiled at mobilization centres on form similar to M.F.B. 238 (copies can be obtained at the district stationery office). Two copies will bo sent to the A.A.G., M.D. No. 2, and one copy to the other mobilization centres in the district. Personnel of Depots: — Toronto. — Officer in charge — Captain R. J. Christie, Q.O.R. Medical Boards — President — Major C. J. Currie, A.M.C. Members — Captain E. Ferguson, A.M.C; Captain A. E. Howard, A.M.C. President — Captain M. McLawrin, A.M.C. Members— Captain R. H. Sheard, A.M.C. ; Lieut. W. H. Ely, A.M.C. Hamilton — Officer in charge — Lt.-Col. R. A. Robertson, 13th Regt. Medical Board. — President — Major D. J. McHwraith, A.M.C. Members^Captain R. H. Sheard, A.M.C; Lieut. W. H. Ely, A.M.C Sudbury. — Officer in charge— Lt.-Col. W. J. Cressey, 97th Regt. Medical Board — Personnel to be detailed later. J. G. MEWHAM, Colonel, A.A.G. Military District No. 2. EXHIBIT No. 3. (Suhmitted hy Hon. W. D. McPherson.) Soldiers' Aid Commission^ 116 College Street, Toronto, Ont. Dear Sir, — I am directed by the Soldiers' Aid Commission to express to you their pleasure at your return to Ontario; and likewise to congratulate you on the services you have been able to render to our King and country in the great war so vitally affecting the interests of the Empire. I can assure you- that your services are highly appreciated, and, on behalf of the people of the province, members of the Soldiers' Aid Commission will be pleased to be of assistance to you in getting you re-established in the community and taking up such employment as you may feel yourself capable of. In order to assist the Commission in giving you a helping hand, I now enclose a form containing certain questions, and would request you to fill in the answers to same, and return it to me in the enclosed envelope as soon as possible. I shall acknowledge receipt and take active steps to aid you in any way we can. Yours faithfully, J. WARWICK, Secretary. IiECEI'TlO.\\ Th'KATMEM AXIJ liE-EDLVATlOS 705 Soldiers' Aid Commission, 116 College Street, Toronto, Ont. 19. Reg. Number Rank Name ••.... Present Address Date and place of enlistment Age Unit Cause of discharge Place and date of discharge Character given Previous military service Former occupation " Trade training, if any Where last employed Weekly earnings there Amount of present disability Have you been recommended for a pension What amount received at Quebec How much back pay to come Family consists of Fraternal society, if any Wishes employment in any of the following kinds of work Willing to go out of town. Remarks 28277-^5 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. City Hall, Toronto, Council Chamber, Wednesday, March 21, 1917. The committee met at 10.08 a.m., the chairman, Sir Herbert Ames, presiding. Members present: Sir Herbert Ames, chairman; Messieurs: Bennett, Marcil, McCurdy, Middlebro, Murphy, Pardee, Ross (Middlesex), and Sutherland, of the Commons Committee; Sir James Lougheed, Brigadier-General Mason, Senator Daniel and Senator Ross, of the Senate Committee. The Hon. G. Howard Ferguson, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. You are Minister of Crown Lands for the province of Ontario, 1 understand? —A. Yes. Q. And have given considerable study to the matter of assisting returned soldiers to get back to civil life, is that so? — A. Yes. Q. I understand you have prepared and are submitting legislation along that line? — A. Yes. Q. Would you be good enough to file a copy of that legislation for our record and give us briefly an explanation of its purpose? — A. I can file with you a copy of. the bill as it is in committee, now, it has not gone through committee. (See Exhibit No. 1 herein.) Q. It is a Government measure, I suppose? — A. Yes. Q. And therefore will be subject only to slight amendment? — A. Very slight amendment. Q. Will you be good enough to give us the main purport of that bill? — A. The bill on the face of it is very wide in its terms, and leaves to regulation very largely the development and the working out of the scheme. It being in the nature of an experiment, we thought it wise to enable us to meet difficulties unforeseen, that might arise from time to time, that we should have authority by Order in Council to work out these difficulties, but the scheme in short is this, knowing the difficulty of indu(-ing many men to go upon the land, and the possibility of having a number of misfits, we are taking the precaution of having every man pass through the hands of our Soldiers* Aid Commission, that is we have a sort of trial board, before whom the men who desire to go into Northern Ontario will go, and having been examined by this board as to their fitness and capability, will be passed on to us. We send them to the depot that we are establishing on the Government Experimental Farm, at Monteith, in Northern Ontario, where they go into training. This depot, or school, will be in charge of competent instructors, men who know the conditions in Northern Ontario, men who are experienced agriculturists, and. they will have practical instruc- tion in the elements of farming, that will enable them to undertake the work for themselves. They are to be properly housed and fed and clothed there, in a larger dormitory, having a club-house in connection with it, and some social features to induce them Q. What do you do with the married men who have families? — A. That is one of the difficulties which we have not entirely solved. I have been proposing — I think it is not any breach of confidence to say that I have been urging upon the Dominion 28277—45* 707 708 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Government very strongly, and I hope they will take the view that I hold myself, that they shall continue the separation allowance during the period of instruction. The men will be paid a wage for the work they do for us during the period of training, the purpose being that if a man becomes dissatisfied or finds that he is incapable of enduring that class of work, or that it is not congenial, that he can quit at any time and he is paid for the labours he has performed in the meantime. In that way we will select and hand-pick as carefully as we can the men whom we place on the land. Having given them a reasonable amount of training, which our instructors will decide, we purpose taking them and settling them in colonies more or less on the community basis, in fact largely upon the community basis, on a properly selected location along some line of railway, preferably the Transcontinental, I think, where we will establish central buildings, living quarters, dormitories, and all the other conveniences. We intend clearing around about that, beginning with an area of land from which the community will be largely self-supporting, we hope, very shortly. By the Chairman:-^ Q. By returned soldier labour?— A. By returned soldier labour under competent instruction; once we get them there we will have no trouble taking care of the wife and family, because we can build our dormitories after the manner of apartments and that sort of thing, and having done that we propose cutting our townships into eighty-acre lots and clearing across the front of each lot, approximately ten acres, on which will be constructed buildings, and each one will be placed upon one of those c-ighty-acre lots. "We will maintain the more expensive portion of machinery, plant, and that sort of thing, at the central point, where it can be made use of by the individual settler on application, at a nominal figure. A man who desires to have a little plant of his own and buy the less expensive implements, stock, and that sort of thing, we will, under our ordinary Settlers' Loan Act, advance him up to $500 for that purpose. That, shortly, is the whole scheme. We hope that it will meet with con- siderable success. Q. Do I understand that from the point of view of the Ontarix) Government they practically are willing to assume the responsibility of re-employment until demobiliza- tion takes place? — A. Are you speaking generally? Q. With respect to the underlying principle in connection with this legislation, do I understand that the Ontario Government assumes the responsibility to rehabili- tate in civil life discharged soldiers? — A. We do not assume the responsibility, as I understand it. We are assisting, and, perhaps, I should not speak as to this, because it is a matter as to which the re-employment, in the ordinary sense, does not come under my jurisdiction; but we are, as, perhaps, you know, lending the assistance of our institutions and our staff and all that sort of thing in a re-educational way— our employment agencies and bureaus are co-operating with the Dominion, but my understanding of the situation is that it is in a co-operative way with the Dominion. Q. What I am endeavouring to ascertain is whether, through the Soldiers' Aid Commission and through your project for replacing men on the land, you intend to deal with all the returned soldiers, or whether you simply intend to deal with a certain proportion of them, leaving the balance to be cared for by other features? — A. We deal with all; so far as we undertake the work, we deal with all who come to us. Q. The Provincial Government, then, assumes the responsibility of finding employment or habitation for the returned men of Ontario? — A. Now, what do you mean by that? Q. Exactly what I say? — A. Assume the responsibility — do you mean that we are assuming all the financial burden that the Dominion Government should assume? Q. Put it in another way: How far do you expect the Dominion Government's responsibility to extend in respect to the demobilization of the men in Ontario? — A. That was pretty largely settled at a discussion at Ottawa, at the time of the organ- ization of the Dominion Hospitals' Commission some year or more ago. [Honourable G. Howard Ferguson.] KECErrwy, the aim em and KE-EDLLATION 709 By Mr. Middlehro : Q. Is this what you refer to: — 2. " That each province should assume the responsibility of finding employ- ment for discharged soldiers who upon their return to Canada are physically and otherwise fit to assume such employment, and all expenditures necessary in undertaking this duty are borne by the province." 3. " As to all returned soldiers who for any cause are incapacitated foi employment or who require special care or treatment before being able to under- take such employment, the ]\Iilitary Hospitals Commission representing the Dominion Government assume all responsibility." A. I am not quite clear as to that. My recollection does not entirely agree with this, and I would not like to say. By the Chairman: Q. The trouble is that if tlie problem grows to be very great and neither the Provincial nor the Dominion Government is primarily responsible for the solution there is danger of a good deal of falling through between the two, and I want to ascertain from you whether in the view of the Ontario Government the responsibility for final employment which is assumed by the Soldiers' Aid Association and the responsibility for getting the men back to the land in Ontario has been assumed by the Provincial Government? — A. So far as the scheme I have outlined is concerned it comes peculiarly under my department because I have charge of the northern part of the province. As far as that is concerned we are assuming all responsibility in connection with it, although we are hoping, and urging very strongly, that the Dominion Government should continue, as I say, the separation allowance. When you go beyond that field, our Soldiers' Aid Commission has been doing a good deal of work in connection with re-education, and finding employment, and so on, but to say that we are assuming the entire responsibility for all men who come back here, 1 would not like to do that. Q. Not quite that. I think it is clearly understood the Dominion Government will look after the disabled man, will look after his vocational training, and, if necessary, his re-education up to the time that he is discharged as presumably capable of supporting himself, or able to make the difference between his pension and what he requires to live. Your scheme relates mainly to men who are not disabled ? — A. Yes. Q. Consequently what we are endeavouring to ascertain is whether in your judgment the responsibility of the Dominion Government throughout Ontario is for those demobilized fit men, as well as for the injured. I understood you to say that practically all you wanted from the Dominion Government was that while your men were in your farm colony, if they were married the pension allowance should continue to their families? — A. As far as this particular scheme is concerned, that is all we have been urging. It is perhaps not correct to say it is all we want. We have urged, without success, further consideration, but the view Q. On what line? — A. Perhaps I am not at liberty to say, because it was at the Interprovincial Conference, at which the Prime Minister presided, that the whole matter was discussed, and various views were advanced, and I do not know that it was ever reduced to reports. By Sir James Louqheed: Q. You refer to the conference in Ottawa? — A. Yes. Q. In October, 1915?— A. No, this last fall. Sir James LouGHEEn; Yes, I remember it. No, it has not been reduced to writing in any way. It was an informal discussion. [Honourable G. Howard Ferguson] 710 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. The project you have outlined, and which your Government intends to carry out under the legislation that is now before the House is altogether an agricultural one, as I understood it? — A. It is, yes. Q. But you do not speak with finality as to the Government's action in general? —A. No. Q. You are merely explaining that up to the present time that is all you have done? — A. I did not understand — in fact I did not know why I was asked to come dovm here. As a matter of fact I was telephoned and asked to come down, and I assumed it was merely to explain what the land settlement project was, not to speak generally as to what the Government's attitude and its policy may be. If that had been intimated to me, I would have been glad to be in a position to tell you that. Q. But so far you have spoken only of the agricultural project? — A. Yes. By Brigadier- General Mason: Q. Can you tell us what the other provinces are doing or contemplate doing? — A. No, I cannot say as to that. By the Chairman: Q. Were you present at the Interprovincial Conference covered by this report? (Showing report) — A. Is that the report dealing with the formation of the Military Hospitals' Commission ? Sir James Lougiieed: Yes. The Witness : I was not there all the time, I had to leave, but the Prime Ministei was present until the Conference concluded. By the Chairman: Q. Do you remember this clause? (Reads): — " At a conference between the Military Hospitals' Commission and repre- sentatives of the Provincial Governments, it was agreed (1) that all expendi- tures necessary in connection with the organization and administration of provincial and other purely local committees be borne by the provincial and local authorities, with such voluntary contributions as may be received. " (2) That each province should assume the responsibility for finding employment for discharged soldiers who, upon their return to Canada, are physically and otherwise fit to assume such employment, and all expenditures necessary in undertaking this duty are borne by the province. " (3) As to all returned soldiers who, for any cause, are incapacitated for employment, or who require special care or treatment before being able to undertake such employment, the Military Hospitals Commission, representing the Dominion Government, assume all responsibility." Now, is that as the Provincial Government of Ontario understands the situation? — A, As I have already said, Sir Herbert, I left the first day of that Conference and I have never seen the report of its proceedings until the present occasion. Largely that was my view of it, but not entirely. Q. Would it be possible for you, Mr. Ferguson, perhaps after consultation with your colleagues, if that seems desirable, to write this committee a letter A. I would be very glad to do so. Q. Telling us exactly what -the attitude of the Provincial Government is upon that finding?— A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. How much land do you give the returned soldiers? — A. 80 acres each, with 10 acres cleared upon it. [Honourable G. Howard Ferguson.] I RECEPTION, THE ATM EXT AND RE-EDUCATION 711 Q. You advance them, then, so much money? — A. We make an advance up to $500 on almost any terms he may wish. Q. The title to the land does not go to them right away? — A. No, the title does not go to them for five years. Q. What security do you get for your advance? — A. The land, the man's clearing and improvements. Q. But the title still remains in you? — A. Yes, we hold the unpatented land with the improvements upon it. By the Chairman: Q. Whatever improvements the man makes go with the land if he falls down? — A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. They revert to the Government? — A. Yes. Q. Will the $500 advance be sufficient to buy implements? — A. We make use of the loan proposition in the case of the ordinary settler to-day, and we have found — it has only been in operation for a year — that it has worked fairly satisfactorily. There are some cases where it might perhaps be well to advance the settlers more; but when you consider the situation, particularly in the Northern country, where the land is fairly well wooded with pulp, which is a fairly remunerative thing, what the settler may get from the 5 or 6 cords per acre, together with the money advanced by the Government, is a pretty fair sum. Q. What amount of interest does he pay? — A. 6 per cent without any charges of any kind. By Mr. Boss {Middlesex) : Q. If he has cattle do you keep them as security? — A. We retain control over everything. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Over the settler's land and his cattle? — A. Yes. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. The scheme which you have outlined is really supplementary to the plan which was arrived at at the Interprovincial Conference. — A. Entirely so. Q. You are giving the returned soldier preference over the ordinary settler? — A. Yes, we are giving him a very substantial preference. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. You give the returned soldier preferential treatment in the matter of appoint- ment to the Civil Service? — A. Yes, by Order in Council. By the Chairman: Q. I suppose the lands available to the returned soldiers would only be unpatented Crown Lands. Do you contemplate purchasing any farm lands in the older settled areas of the province, and treating the returned soldier in the same way in respect to them? — A. The Agricultural Department deals with that branch of the work, Sir Herbert, and the Prime Minister has under consideration some idea with which I am not entirely familiar. I may say that I have not been in attendance at the House for a couple of weeks and do not know just what has been done. Q. Have these plans sufficiently reached maturity to be useful for the considera- tion of this Committee? — A. I cannot say as to that, I have not talked with the Prime Minister recently about it. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. The $500 that you referred to is the amount that you now grant to settler" under the Act? — A. Yes. [Honourable G. Howard Ferguson.] 712 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. I notice that Clause 8 reads, " For supplying necessary machinery, tools, stock and assistance in building upon and otherwise improving the lands located upon or settled under this Act." Is any money to be given for these iji addition to the $500 provided for by Clause 7? — A. I was endeavouring to make clear a moment ago that iWe take the right to buy machinery and retain it ourselves; at least, it will belong to )the community and it will be used upon a community principle ; for instance, a thresh- ing mill, it is not necessary that everybody should have one. We will own one, which will do all the threshing; and the more expensive class of machinery we will buy and own ourselves. The smaller machinery, like ploughs, harrows, and so on, the indi- vidual settler will want, as well as his own horses, and we advance the money. Q. Clause 9 reads : " Providing for the purchase of stock, implements and agricul- tural machinery for the use of settlers, and the terms of such user," and clause 10 reads : " For co-operative arrangements for the purchase and sale of goods, wates, merchandise, produce, stock, machinery, implements and other articles by settlers." Is the $500 intended to cover all those items? — A. No. Q. What does it cover? — A. What the man wants to buy for himself. Q. And the Government provides the community chattels in addition? — A. Yes. Q. What would be a fair amount then for a settler? — A. The average settler with 10 acres of land cleared, for an average of even four cords of pulp at $5 a cord would do fairly well. Q. He will get $500 for his own individual machinery and the use of the com- munity plant? — A. Yes. Moreover, taking the stock proposition we buy stock by car- loads and send it up there, so that the settler gets it at the lowest possible price. One difficulty is that if a settler wants to buy a cow it costs more to transport it than it does to buy it. By Mr. Sutherland : Q. The construction of roads in a spruce timber country is a very important thing for the new settler. Are you doing anything towards constructing colonization roads? — A. Oh, yes. We spent last year through my own Department about $600,000 in building roads up there. By Eon. Mr. Murphy: Q. That is going on all the time? — A. Yes. Q. Under Mr. Whitson?— A. Yes. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. At the conference held in 1915, the matter of devising means to place soldiers at the conclusion of the war was brought up. They will be coming in large numbers, which is one of the problems treated. The report of the Conference says : " The other problem relates to the finding of employment for the large number of soldiers who within a comparatively short space of time will return to Canada at the conclusion of the war, and the Military Hospitals Commission as well as the Provincial authori- ties have undertaken to give this question their consideration with a view to arriving at a possible solution thereof at a subsequent conference." It is suggested that the matter would have special inquiry by the Federal authorities. Has anything been done regarding that? — A. By the Federal authorities? I do not know anything about that. Q. You are not in touch with the Federal authorities? — A. 'No. Witness discharged. [Honourable G. Howard Ferguson.] RECEl'TIUX, TREATMEST AXD RE-EDLCATWX 713 Mr. Tiios. L. OiiUHcii, Mayor of Toronto, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. You are mayor of the city of Toronto? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And you have given a good deal of time, study and interest to matters pertain- ing to recruiting' and to the returned soldiers? — A. I have. Q. We would be very pleased, Mr. Mayor, to have any statement or information that you may see fit to give to the committee for its consideration? — A. Well, I may say, Mr. Chairman, that in order to save time I have prepared a short statement which I submit in printed form, as this is the day appointed, I understand, for receiving suggestions or helpful criticisms. The soldier to-day is a civilian practic- ally throughout the country, and is entitled to go to the military authorities, techiii- cally, and make a complaint; but in practice, in almost every case, he declines to make a complaint because he does not want to be looked upon as a '' squealer." I may say that it is in the interest of the Government and the country generally that these matters should be brought to your attention. I congratulate you on the work that you have done so far; it will, in my opinion, have very important results. The first thing I wish to lay before you, as Chaii;jnan of the Board of Police Commissioners of this city of half a million people, is that I take exception to remarks made here yesterday by a witness. Major W^ilson, of the Military Hospitals Commission. I have with me in attendance the chief of police of the city, who is one of the best chiefs we have in Canada, and one who has been a soldier himself, and has had a great many years' experience; and there is no city in the Dominion that has given more active police aid to the military authorities than Toronto has. Toronto has done everything pos- sible. At the suggestion of General Logie when we had 20,000 troops here, we ceased arresting soldiers for trivial offences on the street, and notwithstanding the great num- ber of soldiers we had here, we obtained good results under that system. The Police Board suggested that the military authorities should look after their o%vn men on the streets, which has been done. We have no complaints on that score from the military authorities. I think that a little more tact on the part of some of the civilian officials of the Military Hospitals Commission would achieve better results from the municipalities. For three years I have been President of the Union of Canadian Municipalities, and I know that this is not a local complaint by any means. I think a little more tact and courtesy on the part of minor civilian officials of the Military Hospitals Commission would produce more harmonious relations with the munici- palities. The evidence given yesterday by Major Wilson, is in my opinion, not correct. I have seen very little drunkenness on the street myself. We have a very active police force here. Owing to the war a great many of our force have gone overseas, and you cannot get as good men to take their places. I hope you will call on the chief of police a little later on to give evidence. We have been doing everything possible, we have plain clothes men and detectives on this work and they are very active. In the police court there are prosecutions every day by the dozen for selling liquors to soldiers and others. Under the Military Hospitals Commission's own auspices I have seen men coming into the city under the influence of liquor. At the station the other day I saw one man throw a bottle of whiskj' out of the window which narrowly missed injuring the Chairman of the Soldiers Aid Commission and others. If it had struck any one it would have injured him very severely. Now, these people were under the control of the Military Hospitals Commission, they came from the city of Quebec, and liquor was on the trains in large quantities. It is only fair to say that matters have been remedied latterly. We wnsh to work in harmony with the Commission, and I think that a little more tact should be shown on the part of the civilian officials of that Commission, who have not been to the war and who are not in a position to criticise the returned soldiers. The conduct of these returned [Mr. Thos. L. Church.] 714 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS soldiers in tlie city of Toronto has, on the whole, been most admirable. I say, Mr. Chairman, that the chief of police is here and will, a little later on, probably give you his views upon the question. The statement which I have prepared is, I may say, based very largely upon tho coniiilaiuts I have heard, and the interviews I have had with these soldiers since the war started, having during that period met. hundreds of them in the city. The statement sets out shortly the ditl'erent points I desire to bring before your attention. I would like especially to call your attention to the second paragraph — I will not read the whole of the statement, but I desire to emphasize this paragraph: "All honour to our heroes" — I regret I cannot agree with Lieut. -General Sir Sam Hughes, when Sir Sam told a Toronto audience the other night "]^ot to pamper the returned soldiers." I wish that such warnings were needed. There is no danger of the returned soldier being pampered, either in Toronto or any place else. Under our Militia Department, everybody in sight was pampered but the soldiers on active service. An officer could go overseas, and come back wounded to find that he is junior in rank to some officer who was junior to him when he left Canada and has been promoted to high military rank, without sacrifice of comfort or hazard of life or limb. I hope that Sir Edward Kemp will make a change in the direction of greater consideration for returned soldiers. I am proud of what Toronto has done. There is a fine spirit among the people of this city. ''J3ut the best of us do not need to be warned against the sin of pampering the returned soldiers. We have got to improve a whole lot before we need any such warnings or begin to do as much for the returned soldiers as these soldiers and their comrades have done for us." By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. The various paragraphs of this statement contain a relation of your personal experience in this matter? — A. Yes. Then on page three you will see some construc- tive matters are dealt with there. People will not go on the farm owing to the lack of conveniences, and a method is set out there, under the heading "Advanced Hydro Policy," by which men going on the farm, or taking up agricultural work in either of its branches will be enabled to get the same conveniences on the farms as are now enjoyed by the people in the cities. Then on the next page, in paragraph 8, I deal with the great inland waterways, which will be a source of employment to a large number of men. The next subject taken up is that of vocational training. Many men are tired of country life, and after th'j war is over will all want to flock to the city. In that paragraph I call attention to the, fact that before the war rural Ontario was depopulated by 500,000 in ten years. These are the figures the Plydro-Electrif Commission has prepared. One of the main reasons for the under-production in Ontario is the fact that there are no adequate conveniences on the farm to-day. The province is without a proper system of good roads, hydro-radios, hydro-telephones, and cheap light and power. Sir Adam Beck should be encouraged to bring the boon of cheap light and power to every farm in the province, with its attending conven- iences. On page 5 I have c paragraph in reference to a survey. If peace was declared to-morrow there is no survey in the city of Toronto of the men who have gone to the war and their vocations, and employers have not been approached with a view to seeing what should be done for them when they come back. I suggest >that something might be done along that line by the Federal Government, with the help of the municipality. On page G I advocate an educational campaign with regard to those soldiers who are employed by the manufacturers of Toronto. Many of the manufacturers of Canada are reducing the pay of their old employees after they come back from the war because the returned soldier has not one hundred per cent of [Mr. Thos. L. Church.] RECEPTION, TREATMEST AND RE-EDUCATION 715 ■efficiency. > case came before the Board of Control this morning. A man had a good position, and when he came back he was ordered to climb ladders although the man had only one leg. The manufacturers should not expect one hundred per cent efficiency from the soldiers. The manufacturers of Canada cannot look at the returned soldiers in the cold light of dollars and cents and expect a hundred per cent efficiency. The manufacturers should consider that if it "were not for the soldier he might not have the prosperity he has to-day and make the money he is making. For that reason I think there should be an educational campaign among the manufac- turers to urge them to go further. Some manufacturers no doubt are doing splen- didly. I regret that the country has little use for the soldier after he is brought back unfit. I claim that the returned soldier should be kept on the country's pay- rolls for two years after the war, until industrial conditions readjust themselves and until the dislocations brought about by the war are solved. I understand the soldier under Class 1 comes home and he is unfit, and he is given fifteen days' pay, and after the country using him they turn around and say, "We have no further use for you." There is a great deal of hardship on the families along this line. The same remark applie= to the Patriotic Fund and the Pension Pact. On page 7 there is some- thing about the Hospitals Commission, and I think it is a fair criticism. "In. my opinion the Hospitals Commission should be abolished, and their duties transferred to a department of the Government. There were too many commissions appointed in time of peace, and this policy seems to have been con- tinued unnecessarily in war time. The tendency of these commissions is to shift responsibility from the Government, and the returned soldier should be able to deal directly with the Government. Many of these commissions are out of touch with the municipalities. I do not intend this in any spirit of criticism of the splendid and public-spirited men who compose the Hospitals Commission, who have on the whole done good work, but many of them have had no practical experience in hospital work, and some of the officials are more or less amateurs. As everybody knows, the hospital business is highly technical work and requires the best brains that the country has in this connection." I also refer to the Patriotic Fund, and add that the care of the wounded and miss- ing soldiers overseas should have been assumed by the Government itself; the soldier who is a prisoner of war should not be left to the mercy of private organizations, but should be a direct charge on the Government. Kegarding convalescent homes, there is no reason why Whitby should have been opened, or Guelph, notwithstanding what was said here yesterday. The Hospitals Commission came to this city and opened up two old ramshackle buildings that were more or less condemned for educational purposes — Bishop Strachan's old college and the old Knox College. The plumbing, in my opinion, was not satisfactory. They were old ramshackle buildings. There were a large number of other buildings that could have been opened, such as the buildings connected with the tiniversity and others. On account of the hotel policy of the present Government, a lot of hotels were closing their doors, many of them having comfortable furniture and conveniences and homelike conditions. I had a letter to day from a soldier at Whitby, who says he has boon housed and treated there as thougli he were insane. He is not insane. He wants to be with his people; he wants to see his friends. His nerves are high-strung and out of condition owing to shock and that sort of thing. He has been herded out there and treated more or less as if he was out of his mind. All those sol- diers need care and quietness, and when they are home with their families they become normal more readily than when separated from their families ; I refer to that later on. There were a large number of public buildings in_ Toronto; it is unfair for the Hospi- tals Conimissiou to say that they could not get them here. The city had the old General hospital on Gerrard street, a building capable of housing TOO men. We gave that building up to the Dominion, and they use it for a base hospital for this military [Mr. Tho3. L. Church.] 716 ^ SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS district, and the Uoverniuent even asked the city to pay the rent of that building, which they are paying-, $10,000 a year, to the Hospital Trust, which is a city trust. That was one of the buildings that should have been taken over. Dr. Hastings is a very capable health officer, he has inspected a large number of new schools and found them ideal for all classes of soldiers coming back, whether suffering from mental dis- eases or not. One of those schools is known as the new Jesse Ivetchum School; another one is the new Park School. There is also the new School of Commerce and Finance, erected at a cost of $700,000. By Mr. Ross: Q. Would those be available for the use of the Hospitals Commission? — A. Yes. The Hospitals Commission never came to "the city to get together. We could have turned over a lot of those buildings, in fact there are a lot of civic buildings in the Exhibition Ground, and others. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Were you consulted about the buildings they have now before they were taken? — A. Well, we offered them some buildings. They did not come to us; they seemed to prefer the country to the city. Q. Did they ask you about the Bishop Strachan School and about Knox Col- lege? Were you consulted about those buildings? — A. We were consulted, yes; we helped to furnish them and fix them up; in fact we did all the fixing up of the Bishop Strachan College, the first college which they got. I might say, in conclusion of that part of my remarks, that there are an abundance of places in the city of Toronto without going to Whitby. The Government has another place at Guelph. What are they doing at Guelph? We have erected a more modern farm in Toronto here, seven miles from the city, on Yonge street, which cost $800,000, with more modern buildings than Guelph. The Government are going to take those prisoners and move them down from Guelph to our more modern farm on Yonge street — move the prisoners which are in the Guelph farm here and turn the Guelph site over to the Hospitals Commission. Now, the Hosjpitals Commission directly are going to cause the parents and the relatives of the soldiers from Toronto a great deal of incon- venience. The relatives of the soldiers will have to pay prohibitive rates for travelling on the Grand Trunk Eailway. The service is bad, as they have taken trains off both to Whitby and Guelph. By tlie Chairman: Q. I was suggesting yesterday that negotiations should be entered into with the Grand Trunk Railway to run a Saturday excursion train from here to Whitby and back?— A. That is a detail Q. For soldiers' wives and children, at reduced rate, say 50 cents for parents, and 25 cents for children? — A. My argument is, why should not the Hospitals Com- mission use the farm on Yonge street, only seven miles from' this city, with better buildings and conditions, instead of sending Toronto soldiers to Guelph? The returned soldier has to go fifty or sixty miles to Guelph. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Is this farm on Yonge Street a city institution? — A. Yes, it cost $800,000; it has SO acres; it can be reached by automobile right from this City Hall in half an hour or forty minutes. By the Chairman: Q. Have you educational facilities there? — A. Well, I don't just understand this high-sounding name — educational facilities and vocational training — but they could have all the educational facilities they have at Guelph; it is the same kind of farm. [Mr. Thos. L. Church.] RECEPTION, THE ATM EXT AND RE-EDUCATION 717 Q. Have they teachers and class-rooms and laboratories and all those appliances that are used in the teaching of agriculture?— A. Yes, and we could have them more modern that they have at Guelph. It is erected with the authority of the Ontario Government, and is patterned from Guelph. On page 8 I have an item regarding the transportation : — " Returned soldiers should have the right to travel free on all electric rail- ways in the Province. Many of these roads got subsidies and bonuses and obtained their charters for nothing from the municipalities, and they should be required for all time to carry our returned soldiers free. The City of Toronto awn civic car lines, since the war started, have allowed them to ride free. If public ownership does this, so should private ownership." Then I speak of better conditions on the steam railways and at amusements. On page 9 there is a reference to lack of proper respect sho^vn to returned soldiers, and I refer to the automobiles that should be provided at various depots, and that clubs should be organized to meet returned soldiers at the station and drive them to hospitals or homes. On page 10 I speak of the preference in employment that should be given to returned soldiers: — " All public positions should be given to returned soldiers only. Those who are occupying public positions and have failed to do their duty during the war should vacate them at the war's conclusion, if they have been eligible for service. If necessary, to some extent at least, some should make way for the returned soldiers. At the present time the returned soldier is getting very largely only menial positions, when the best should be given him, including all vacancies in the Senate, judgeships and the higher positions in the civil service in all its branches, by the Dominion and Federal Governments and municipalities. The City of Toronto is engaging no one except returned soldiers, and we intend to continue this policy." It is a strange thing to me that the returned soldier is only being given menial positions in the public service. I contend that the higher positions in the public service should be given to them, and the giving of positions is not a commensurate recompense for all they have done for us. Then, on page 10, there is a reference to the Great War Veterans' Association. I think they could assist in the solution of this question, if their services were utilized. On page 11 there is a reference to the fact that a soldier is exposed to a great deal of hardship regarding his taxes. Many of these men are in arrears for taxes, and have had the bailiff put in on them. These men are now in Flanders and France, and I would suggest that the soldiers' taxes should be remitted until after the war. This, of course, would deplete the finances of the municipality, but that could be arranged: the sum could be capitalized and we could issue short-term bonds. The power of sale in mortgages should be postponed till 12 months after the war. That is the law now in some eases, but is gotten over by mortgagors coercing the families of the soldiers left at home. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Yoii referred to the hard rule in regard to the payment of separation allow- ance? — A. Often I have letters from people that do not come within the four corners of the rule of the Patriotic Fund. There have not been as many lately, but there have been a number since the war started. For instance, a mother has an only boy and he has gone to the war and his living taken away and they ask " Does he not (lualify for the fund?" There should be some other fund that would take care of him. Q. Do they not give a separation allowance to a mother who has an only son? — A. Some of them do not get the separation allowance. [Mr. Thos. L. Church.] 718 SPECIAL COilMITTEE—C.E.F.-RETURNED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. If the son who was enlisted was the only son and his mother was solely dependent upon him, she not only gets the separation allowance and pay, but she gets- something from the Patriotic Fund as well? — A. Some of them say there is no fund given to them. Q. When you get letters of that kind do you ask the Dominion Government for their story? — A. I generally send them to the Government. Q. You know there are always two sides to a story. You say the allowance should be increased? — A. There are some cases where the allowance should be increased. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Do you mean the general scale of separation allowance? — A. Xo. There are some people in Earlscourt, which is a British-born district, who say the allowance is not sufficient. With one accord the women sent their husbands to the war. They encouraged them to enlist. Many of them have large families, and the separation allowance is not sufficient. Q. They get a bigger allowance from the Patriotic Fund for a bigger family? — A. I do not think the increased scale is sufficient under the high cost of living. Take the matter of coal for instance: the people of Earlscourt cannot buy it except by the bag. Our property commissioner made a report that in some instances people were paying as high as $30 a ton. It may seem incredible, but when you buy it by the bag and pay a high rate for the delivery of it it mounts up, and many people complain the scale is not sufficient for people with large families. I have heard very little criticism about the Patriotic Fund. It is beyond criticism, but there are some cases that do not come within the rule, and it is a hardship. I refer to page 11 of this memorandum, in regard to the delivery of telegrams. There is considerable hardship by reason of the delay in the delivery of these telegrams notifying people of the death of their relatives. The messengers come to the doors at all hours of the night and they will call out, "Your husband is killed." In some cases they telephone to a neighbour and have the telegram delivered in that way. You have a hard and fast rule about the loading of steamers at Halifax and St: John. You do not load a boat except between certain hours in the morning and afternoon. I think there should be a rule that telegrams should not be delivered except in reasonable hours, say between 11 at night and 6 in the morning. Mr. Bennett : There is a rule to that effect. The Witness : It is a matter of working out the details. There is a great deal of hardship among the poorer people whose husbands are at the war. Then at the foot of page 11 there is a reference to another matter. Last Sunday about 40 men came in at North Toronto station and the majority of them were sent home because they were unfit. They were never at the front at all. This is a very serious thing in Toronto arid in large cities. Men are not properly examined before they go away. There is evidently a great deal of carelessness, judging from what the people who write to me have to say. The examinations in a great many cases have not been satisfactory. Many unfit men are going over and coming back. This works out as a hardship on many families. They leave their employment. They think they are going overseas. They train for six months or a year, and the final medical examination passed, and then they are rejected in England, and they are sent out on the street. They cannot qualify for a pension. They come under clause 1, I think, and the result is that the country has no further use for them and they are stricken off the pay rolls. This is a hardship on the men and their families. By Mr. Sutherland : Q. You say many unfit men are being sent over? — A. Yes, many unfit men sent nvcr. Last Sunday morning 60 per cent of the returned men came back were of that [Mr. Thos. L. Church.] RECEPTION-, TREATMENT A^'D RE-ED i CATION 719 description. Many of them came to me and said they had three or four doctors at them, and they were sent over there having given up their living here, mechanics, and their wives got $1.10 a day, plus the other allowance, but now they are out of employment, and the country turns them adrift, and that should not be. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. You do not mean to say that is being done now? — A. Yes, I know the men come back and complain very bitterly and say it is unsatisfactory. At the foot of page 11 there is a reference to the unfit men who are returned, and the statement is made: "Many of these men, I understand, will not get pensions, as they are returned as unfit, and it is a great injustice to them, as they have to start civil life all over again, and many of them have no funds." On page 12 there is a reference to the census of native-born. The city of Toronto is not getting a fair count-up of the number of men who have enlisted. I think it should be in the interest of the country that such a census should be made. That is, a survey should be made showing the returns by provinces of the men native-born. The native-born Canadian is not given a fair show. He has been criticised in a manner which is not fair to the young men of Canada. I give an illustration of this. The Koyal Canadian Horse Artillery in Kingston has sent 2,200 men to the front, and three-fourths of them came from Toronto. There are 250 men now ready to go. One thousand of these men are native-born Canadians and 500 are British-born, and the remainder are some Ameri- cans and others, born of American parents who have lived here a great many years. There is criticism all over Canada, and I think it would be in the interest of the native-born Canadian that such a census should be made to show that the Canadians have done their duty. I have several letters from the front asking that this be done, and the returned men have spoken about it. • By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. That information can be obtained from the Department in Ottawa ? — A. 1 do not think you can get the information. It should be published. Q. In every attestation paper you have it? — A. The attestation papers would show it, but there is no way of getting it as far as I know. By Mr. Bennett: Q. It has all been tabulated? — A. You have it tabulated, but I think the information should be given to the public, so that the public would know. The next matter is about unifoi'ms worn by the soldiers on the street. The men are ^;oing around in uniforms not becoming to the country for which they fought. They iire given suits or the equivalent in money, but the rule should be that the man should be given a uniform and not the equivalent in money. In nine cases out of ton, the man will take the money. By the Chairman: Q. I think that is the custom. They have the option between the $13 suit and the money? — A. Yes. Then on page 13, No. 30, there is a reference to slackers. There are a lot of slackers even in Toronto who are going to the States. I know many cases of young men who have gone to the States. I think the States should be asked to deport these men back to Canada as undesirables and I think their services should be utilized by the Government. There are some aliens — ^foot of page 13 — and many of these men are in the hospitals in England, and some of them suffering from heart trouble and other ailments and they cannot get home, while officers, some of whom have never been to the front, can come home and take around moving-picture shows and matters of that kind, to the detriment of the returned soldier. [Mr. Thos. L. Church.] 720 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNS ED SOLDIERS By Brig adier- G e tier al Mason: Q. Who is responsible for that? — A. I am not prepared to say, General, but some- oody must be responsible. In the meantime the returned soldier is getting the worst of it. Let me refer to a case which* came before me to-day, of a young soldier who has been wounded four times. He is connected with a Toronto unit which is known as the 9th Battery. This battery was wiped out at St. Julien and has immortalized itself on the field of battle. Notwithstanding the fact that this young man has been wounded four times, severely, he was sent back to train newly eidisted men, and is now going back with a detachment of 40 or 50 from the local unit and will sail on Thursday or Friday from Halifax. Yet there are officers who have never seen service at the front who are allowed to return to this country and are engaged in showing from place to place moving pictures of battle scenes. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. What do you mean by your reference to moving pictures? — A. I understand Mr. Ross, that some officers who have never been to the front and who will not revert in rank, have been given jobs to return to Canada to such work as to show moving pictures throughout Canada of war scenes, and other kindred jobs. Yet here is this young man from the 9th Battery, who has been severely wounded four times and has been on service for two years and six months, being sent back again to the front, while these officers, who have never heard a shot fired in earnest, are being sent back to easy positions in Canada. Q. Have you many complaints of that kind? — A. Yes, lots, I have forwarded the papers dealing with this young man's case to Ottawa, but I understand he is ordered to start for overseas to-morrow. Q. What I, asked was, have you many complaints of that kind? — A. I have received quite a few complaints from returned soldiers that officers are getting preferential treatment and that the privates are being discriminated against. I do not say that this has been so much the case recently, but certainly up to the end of last year the complaints were very serious. By Brig adier- General Maffon: Q. You say at the, bottom of page 13 of your memorandum: "There is also con- .-'iderable criticism about bringing home able-bodied soldiers because they will not revert in rank." Do you speak of officers of high rank? — A. What I say there is (reads) : " There is also considerable criticism about bringing home able-bodied officers because they will not revert to rank, and while it is difficult for the men in the ranks to get leave, some of these officers, who have never been to the front, can get home." Q. Why are these officers sent home? — A. I do not know why they come home. Q. Why will they not revert in rank? — A. I do not know. This kind of thing does not help recruiting very much. Q. I suppose you have reference to an officer of high rank who cannot go to the front in command of his regiment because he lacks experience. He could go to the front as a junior officer but he will not take junior rank? — A. That may be. But let me ask why a young soldier who has been wounded four times should be sent back again to the front ? Q. As to the officers to whom I refer, they have no use for them in England and therefore they are sent back to Canada. — A. That may be, but the private soldier is not getting the equality of treatment he should in this regard, with all due respect to the authorities. Mr. Chairman, let me cite this ease to you: Last Saturday three returned soldiers arrived in Toronto, but were put into the wrong train and sent on to London. The London authorities returned the men to Toronto to my care, although I do not know what I have to do with the matter. Under the care of Sergeant- Major [Mr. Thos. L. Church.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 721 Crichton the men went to the hosi)ital of the ^lilitary Hospitals Commission on Spadina Avenue and sought to get admission. They were told that the place was crowded and they could not be taken in. Finally he said he would bring the men to a hotel and tiien the hospital took them in. Now, to my mind, this incident illustrates that the Military Hospitals Commission does not look sufficiently far ahead to make a proper and adequate accommodation. If peace were to be declared to-morrow, the Commission w'ould not be able to cope with the situation that would arise, because they do not in advance make sufficient provision for accommodation for the future. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Do you know there is sufficient hospital accommodation in Canada to take care of every wounded man who returns? — A. No. What I say is, there should be some specially (lualified department of the Government to look after the care of returned soldiers in the same way that they are cared for when they are going over- seas. If that were done, we should see much better work performed and get better results. The municipality of this city has been dealing directly with the Dominion Government. It has turned over to the Government our whole ac 'ommodation in Exhibition buildings. In fact it has turned over every building available for the pur- pose which the city has. Had the Military Hospitals Commission asked us we w5uld have done the same for them. With all due respect to the Commission, I say it is not fair that three men, such as those I have indicated, men who have returned to Canada after doing their part at the front, should be allowed to be put into the wren;,' train and sent off to London, returned from that city to Toronto, and then when they seek hosjntal accommodation here, find that the place is over-crowded and that they cannot be admitted. Then with regard to the munition plants in Toronto, I think something should be done by this Committee to insure that the returned soldiers will get a fair show. At the .present time these munition plants are stocked with women, to the detriment of the returned soldiers. I am not criticising the women, who have done wonders in this war, but there is a section of them who do not need this work. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Do the women get the same pay as men for the same work in these factories ? — A. I do not know whether they do or not. So far as I know there is no fi.xed rule in that regard. I would like to say that a resolution from the East End Ratepayers Association in Sir Edward Kemp's riding was presented to the Board of Control this morning, protesting against married women and girls being given the preference in munition plants over returned soldiers. Some 25 or 30 returned soldiers came to my office and stated that although they had gone to factories seeking employment, they were told that they were not needed because they did not have the necessary, efficiency. I think there should be some amendment to the rules regarding these munition factories, so that they would be under Government control. By the Chairman: Q. Did you send these men who applied to you for work to the Soldiers' Aid Commis-iion? — A. I did not. I dealt with the men myself because I could do so more promptly than the commission could. Q. Do you not think the Soldiers' Aid Commission is the proper body to look after the employment of returned soldiers? — A. We do not want the poor fellows to come to us if there is some other authority to look after them. Nevertheless they do come and we cannot turn them away. They often prefer to come to us. 28277— iG FMr. Thos. L. Church.] 722 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Middlehro: Q. When these men came to you did you telephone to the offices of the factories concerned to find out if they had refused the men work? — A. I sent some of the comphiints to the representative of Toronto in the Cabinet and to Toronto members, because it is a Toronto matter. Q. Do you know \Yhether these men had really been refused jobs? — A. I do not, because the factories concerned would not give me the information, I am not entitled to have it, as I am only a civilian. Q. I ask you again, did you find out from these factories whether these men had or had not been refused work? — A. I did not because it is not my duty. I took the word of the soldiers. Q. Do you not think you should have done it before you put the blame on the munition factories? — A. I am not putting the blame on anybody. I get letters dealing with these matters, and I send them to the proper authorities, to the Dominion Government and to the representatives of Toronto in Parliament. Q. Do you not know that by agreement between the province of Ontario and the Dominion Government the Eetumed Soldiers' Aid Commiission agreed to find employment for all returned soldiers ?— A. Do you know where they get their employ- ment ? •Q. From the Commission? — A. That is all right in theory but not in practice. Q. But you have not sent these men to the proper authority to secure employ- inent ? — A. I did not know of any such assistance at all. Q. You did not know that there had been an agreement between the Dominion Government and the Provincial Government? — A. This is the first 1 had heard of it. Q. That all returned soldiers must apply to the Soldiers' Aid Commission, and they have agreed to find employment for them? — A. Do they do it in practice? Q. I am saying: Have you asked them to do it? — A. Well, the men apply to the Soldiers' Aid Commission. Let me say this : The Civic Works Department has taken on 400 men. The men are sent dovsm by the Soldiers' Aid Commission to the city hall, and we supply the positions. The complaint of the men is that the Commission supply them only with temporary work, and that is the end of them, and they come down and want the city to give them better positions. Q. Have you inquired from the Soldiers' Aid Commission if that is true? We had evidence given yesterday that there were only 9 men who had not employment? — A. My office is in receipt of complaints that men are not satisfied with some of the jobs of the Srldiers' Aid Commission. If you were to go in there now you would prob- ably find four or five returned soldiers looking for better work. Q. When you go back, ask them if they have been to the Soldiers' Aid Commission, take their names, and then go down to the Soldiers' Aid Commission and find if they have been there. In that way you would find out facts, and you would have a case? — A. That is all right in theory, but I know what it is in practice. I think I have found as many jobs for returned soldiers as all the commissions put together. Q. We had evidence in Montreal that one concern had given employment to 600 returned soldiers, and that they were being paid the same wages as anybody else? — A. We would like to get the names of those men from the Soldiers' Aid Commission. I do not know of any factory in Toronto that has taken on 600 men. Hon. Mr. MuRPiiY : That was done in Montreal. The Witness: There should be some way to regulate these factories. It is all right to refer men there. I know soldiers that have been given a list of places by the Soldiers' Aid Commission, they go to the factory and find there is no work; they cannot even get in to see the manager, and they are told, sometimes by a boy at the gate: " We have no positions." The result is that they deluge the city hall looking for work, and the city has provided employment for many of these men. We are working in harmony with the Commission. The Soldiers' Aid Commission has a most active [Mr. Thos. L. Church.] RECEPTION', TliEATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 723 c'hainnan in Mr. McPherson. When the main body of soldiers come home, neither the Soldiers' Aid Commission nor any other agency can look after them. It is a three- fold problem, requiring the attention of the Federal, Provincial and municipal authori- ties, who must make a united effort. The obtaining of positions is a very small part of the recognition the soldiers should get for all they have done for Canada. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Have you a record of all the men that you have supplied positions for? — A. We know the names of the men who have got work. Q, Have you a record such as the Soldiers' Aid Commission have? — A. Yes. We have an office, Sergt. -Major Creighton has charge of it. Q. Then there is a record showing all the names of men who have been provided with positions? — A. Yes, the city has a record of that. Q. That is only the city employees, but I mean the men you have provided positions for? — A. We have taken it up with the Soldiers' Aid Commission; we work as well as possible with them. Some of the soldiers claim that they are getting only temporary positions through the Commission. By the Chairman: Q. Do I understand that you have a special officer, Sergt.-Major Creighton, who keeps a record of all the applications, and what is done for each? — A. Yes, and the city department have a record of all given employment. We took on 40 men in one day last week. I may say, in conclusion, gentlemen, that the system is wrong whereby an officer can resign in time of- war. The privates have to endure to the end. In times of peace there is no objection to officers resigning, but in war times they should be treated just as the men are. It is not fair that they should have leave to return home while the privates have to stay at the front and see the whole thing through- ,1 might say, Mr. Chairman, that I wish you would call the Chief of Police to the stand for a few minutes in regard to the charges made against the work of the force yesterday. Witness discharged. Lieut.-Col. H. J. Grasett, Chief of Police. Toronto, called, sworn, and examined. By the Chairman: Q. You are the Chief of the Police Force of the City of Toronto, I understand? — A. I am, sir; I have been for thirty years. Q. Yesterday, in evidence, it was intimated that there was a feeling on the part of those connected with the care of the convalescent soldiers in this city that they were not getting the fullest assistance possible from your Department in keeping the con- valescent men from getting intoxicating liquors, and the statement was made that intoxicating liquor was very detrimental to the health and progress of the soldiers. What do you say to that? — A. I may say that since the Ontario Temperance Act came into operation, the police force of the city of Toronto has done its very best to carry out its provisions. Wo have succeeded to this extent : From the 16th of September until the end of the year 1916 there were 149 prosecutions for breach of the Act. Since that time, from the 1st of January to date, there were 187 cases, showing an increased number for a shorter period. Personally I have taken a great deal of interest in this Act, and I desire that we should test it thoroughly and leave no means untried to give effect to its provisions. The Police Force are imbued with that idea, and their officers have supported me in that wish. In order to stop the sale of liquor, police detectives, police constables and outside men employed for the purpose have been engaged, and 2S2T7— 46i [I.ieut.-Colonel M. J. Grasett] 724 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS money has been freely spent to put a stop to illicit liquor traffic. That we have entirely succeeded it would be absurd and idle to say; we have done our best and will continue to do it. Q. This committee is not particularly interested, as part of its study, in the general efforts beijig made to enforce the laws in Toronto. What we are particularly interested in is the measures that are being especially taken to protect returned soldiers from doing themselves injury. Now, have you made any special efforts to protect the returned soldiers? — A. You cannot dissociate one from the other. Q. Can you not exert more vigilance in certain sections of the city than in others ? — A. That has been done. It was represented to me that the district in the immediate neighbourhood of the convalescent hospital on College street was particularly active in the sale of liquor. The officer in charge of that district was directed to take the matter up, and he succeeded, almost if not entirely, in putting a stop to it. But, gentlemen, you must understand that when a soldier goes out in uniform and visits a friend and gets drunk, the police cannot stop it, and there are more soldiers that come home under the influence of liquor by gifts of whisky than by the sale of whisky. And in the present state of the law I do not know whether any of you gentlemen have studied it, it would be impossible for angels, much less police, to eradicate this evil. When the conditions of the law will permit us, we act; and while we have not given exclusive attention to the soldiers, and do not propose to do so, the citizens of Toronto have to have their share of police protection; we have given all that we have reason- ably been expected to do, and the returned soldier has to obey the laws of the muni- cipality and of this country, the same as any other citizens, and should not be given any preference there. By the Chairman: Q. Do I understand you to say that you are not prepared to exercise any special consideration with a view to protecting the health of the returned soldiers? — A. They are getting their full share and all that we can be reasonably expected to do, but we will not give them exclusively our attention. Witness discharged. Colonel Marlow recalled and further examined. The Chairman: You have been recalled owing to the fact that when you were previously examined the Chairman of the Commission, Sir James Lougheed, was not present. The evidence which you will now give is in further development of what is already on the record as your evidence. By Mr. Bennett: Q. I hope we are not keeping you. Col. Marlow, from going overseas, by asking vou to attend this Committee? — A. I do not quite understand the object of your ques- tion. Q. You have offered for overseas service, and I thought perhaps, we have kept you from going, by requesting you to attend this Committee? — A. It is not likely that you have done so ; I have not an overseas appointment at the present time. Q. I did not know but perhaps you were about to leave. You were the A.D.M.S. of this district were you not? — A. Yes, I am yet. Q. And, as such, you know a gi-eat deal about the medical service of this district, naturally? — A. It was ray business to know about the medical arrangements of this district. Q. Do you know anything about it medically? Witness: Mr. Chairman, I have been an officer in the Army Medical Corps for 17 years, and I would like to ask you if this question is in order that I should be [Colonel F. W. Marlow.j RECEPTION', TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 725 asked after that long period of service if I know anything about my business, when 1 have been in this position for two years. Q. I am asking you if you know anything about the medical services of this dis- trict? — A. I have been Assistant Director of the Medical Service for the past two years, and, as such, it was my business to know about it. Q. It was the presumption that you would, but I am asking you did you know anything about it? The Ciiair^man: I do not think that question should be asked. I think it is quite in oi-der to ask questions for the purpose of obtaining information, but I do not think questions should be asked which annoy the witness, I do not think you are justified in asking questions of that kind. Witness : If I did not know anything about the medical services of this district and were not competent to carry it on, I presume the deneral Officer Commanding the district would have relieved me of my duties. By Mr. Bennett: Q. x\s Medical Officer of the district, you had to do with the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. Yes, I did. Q. Did you make a report upon the accommodation for patients throughout the country? — A. Do you mean outside of my own district? . Q. Yes? — A. When I reported on the Medical Services generally I did not deal particularly with the Military Hospitals Commission side of it, probably because that was not my special duty. At the same time I did mention in my report that it was necessary to extend the accommodation in the convalescent hospitals, and that it was urgent that it sliould be done. Q. Did you furnish the Military Hospitals Commission with a copy of that report ? — A. No, sir, I did not. Q. Were you asked to do so? — A. No, sir, I was not. Q. Will you swear to that? — A. I swear to it. My instructions were to report o-fficially and to supply a copy to the Minister, and a copy to Mr. McCurdy. Q. Did Mr. Scammell ask you for a copy? — A. No, he did not. Q. And you did not give him a copy of it? — A. I did not. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. If he had asked you, on behalf of the Commission, would you have given him a copy of it ? — A. I had- no right to dispose of any copy of my report in any other way than I was ordered to do. By Mr. Bennett: Q. And you did not do so? — A. I did not. Q. In this district there are a number of out-patients? — A. There are a number of out-patients. Q. In the course of your evidence the other day, you gave the impression that you were opposed to having out-patients? — A. I am decidedly against it. Q. You are? Are you aware of the fact that you instituted that system in this district? — A. I am aware that I instituted that system in this district. Q. Are you aware of the fact? — A. I am aware of the fact. Q. And against the protest of the other members of the profession? — A. Against the protest? Q. Yes? — A. I had no protest, I was merely dealing with the matter. Q. Well, against the opposition of the others? — A. Excuse me, there was no oppo- sition. I was dealing with the matter in my own district, and I instituted the system to meet the requirements at that time. We had the out-patient system, because at that time we had only the one Central Military Convalescent Hospital. We had not [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] 726 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS the accommodation to provide any other system, but in the process of evolution it has become very evident to me that the proper plan of dealing with these men is to keep them under proper supervision, and therefore, as soon as the Bishop Strachan school was opened up I advised the Commission by letter — the local authorities of the Com- mission — that it was necessary to look ahead and provide further accommodation. It was on my recommendation that the Commission took over Knox College, and before Knox College was ready I ordered my medical officers to gather up all the out-patients that were available, and to bring them in as soon as the hospital was ready for occupa- tion. Q. You said the other day that the out-patient system was the outgrowth of the lack of accommodation by the Military Hospitals Commission in this district? — A. Where please? Q. You will find it at page 182 — I do not know whether that is very important. Have you any explanation of it. (Copy of evidence handed to witness? — A. (reads) " At that time, I may say, there were probably a large number of out-patients. You see when these Central Convalescent Hospitals were established, in many cases they were inadequate to accommodate all the returned men, so that an " out " patient system was adopted, whereby men did not live in the hospital, but reported there for examination." Q. Now, as a matter of fact when was the accommodation of the military con- valescent hospitals inadequate ?— A. From the time that the Military Hospitals Commission was appointed the accommodation has been inadequate to meet the requirements. Q. Give me your figures? — A. I cannot give you my figures; I have not the figures prepared. Q. Suppose we have them and show the contrary, what do you say to that ? — A. I am only speaking in respect to my own district. Q. Let me read them — on April 1st, 1916, the accommodation was 1,446 through- out Canada, and the vacant beds were 719, and the out-patients 311. In Toronto the accommodation was 200 beds, the vacant beds 92, and the out-patients 65; now what do you say to that? — A. What time was that? Q. On the first of April, 1916 — a year ago now; what do you say to that? — A. Well, I would have to look that matter up. Q. Then why did you swear positively — ? — A. Excuse me; wait a minute; when did you say? Q. April 1st, 1916, the accommodation in Toronto was 200 beds, vacant beds 92, and the out-patients only 65? — A. Can you tell me where those 200 beds were in April, 1916? Q. They were in Toronto district, in the D unit; as you are the medical officer I suppose you know much more about it than I; that is a reason I was asking you what you knew about your district. I may give you the further figure — 1st of July, 1916, total accommodation 1,441 beds, vacant beds 731, out-patients 366; and in your medical district, Toronto, there were 165 beds, with 111 vacant, and only 54 out- patients on the 1st of July, 1916. Now, on the 1st of October^last year there were 3175 beds in the district, vacant 62, and at that time, on that day. there were more out-patients than 62 — 215. On the 1st of January this year, there were 618 beds in Toronto, and 164 vacant beds, and only 54 out-patients. On March 8th, just a few days ago, there are 1,186 beds in the Toronto district, of which 412 are vacant and only 275 out-patients. So that with the exception of the 1st day of October — at which tirme exceptional conditions prevailed, to which I shall presently refer — at no time has there not been a surplus of available beds, taking all the out-patients as well. Now, in the light of those facts, assuming them to be facts, and I will put the secretary in to prove them if you want it — what is your answer to the impression you made in the public mind that in this district there was not suflicient accommodation [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 727 for returned soldiers, and that the Military Hospitals Commission had failed in its duty? What is your explanation? — A. Well, so far as these figures are concerned I would say that I would have to have a little time to look into them, to see what the explanation is, because I am satisfied there is an explanation. When you look at . March 8th and contrast that with the present time, March 21st, that we have over 500 out-patients in this district because of the lack of accommodation, then there is some explanation of the figures, which I would have to take time to look over to give you an explanation. The Chairman: By whom are the figures furnished, Mr. Bennett? Mr. Bennett : They are furnished from the records of the Hospitals Commission. Colonel Thompson is here, and Mr. Scammell. The Chairman: Will Colonel Thompson put them in as evidence? Mr. Bennett: He or Mr. Scammell will. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Is Major Munn an officer of the Hospitals Commission? — A. He is my medical officer, who has been doing the medical work of the Hospitals Commission. Q. And he would be in a position to know just how many out-patients there were for whom there was not accommodation? — A. Yes, he should be. Q. He said yesterday before this Committee that there were 500 out-patients that they could not accommodate. Mr. Pardee: 551. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Now, so far as the out-patient theory is concerned, you made a written report? — A. On the medical services, do you mean? Q. You made a written report, part of which was introduced into the evidence, in which you were in favour of the out-patient theory? — A. No, sir, I take exception to that. Q. At no time? — A. The only time that I can recall Q. Would you be good enough to look up your papers and take the report you made to the officer commanding the 2nd Division after you had returned from Quebec, of which you are the father? — A. I admit being the father of that. I am the father of the Central Clearing System, and probably the father of several other things in con- nection with this whole problem, and I remember that report very well, and in it you will see that I did at that time advocate the out-patient system. Q. On December IG, 1915, you wrote the Chairman of the Commission; turn up that letter enclosing copy of report sent to the officer commanding the 2nd Division, in which you say (Reads) : — " When no treatment is required, and a man's home is considered a suitable place for him to convalesce, and his progress is not likely to be retarded by his being there, and his habits at home can be checked periodically, such cases should be allowed to go home, but only on passes covering a definite period. On the expiration of their passes, these men should report at the home to be cheeked over by the staff. K their progress is satisfactory, their passes may be renewed, and if not, they should be readmitted to the home. When deemed advisable, they should be brought before a medical board for disposition. Men on pass, who are reported to be misbehaving themselves, and so possibly retard- ing their progress, should be brought back to the home at once, and be kept under supervision. Failure to report in accordance with orders, or misbehaviour in a convalescent home, shoidd be dealt with in accordance with headquarters* instructions in this regard. [Colonel F. W. Mar low.] 728 SPECIAL COilMirTEE—C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS " Such an out-patient system is capable of expansion to any degree, and while still keeping the men under observation and control would avoid the necessity of providing homes for men who can convalesce satisfactorily in their own homes, and would permit of their being dealt with in a consistent manner and satisfactory, not only to the men, but to the country for whom they have served. " In cases of men who are allowed to go to their homes in locations removed from convalescent home centres, typewritten instructions should be given to them, instructing them to supply through their local physicians (name of physician to be inserted) medical reports, which should reach the central con- valescent home not later than the 15th of each month. Men so instructed should be required to sign a duplicate of the order as a receipt for such order." That was to avoid the creation of homes. Have you that letter? — A. Yes. Q. That was the 16th December, 1915?— A. Yes. Q. And commending the establishment of an out-patient system for the purpose, you observe, of avoiding the necessity of providing homes, among other causes?— A. Yes. Q. In view of that statement, what have you to say as to your evidence the other day? — A. I will call your attention to the fact that that report was made November 24, 1915, following a week spent at Quebec, on the return of over 600 men on the steamship Metagami, at which the present system in operation at the discharge depot was put into force, and previous to which time there was no proper system of dealing with the men there. I may point out to you that it was previous to this time, no less probably than four weeks before this report was put in, and what was the idea of the Hospital Commission? The idea of the Hospitals Commission at that time was that these men should be sent from the discharge depot at Quebec to voluntary homes all over the country, homes nothing more than lodging places, which offered no facilities for treat- ment. I felt that it was absolutely necessary to get rid of this idea. The idea of having large convalescent homes in each district was proposed from here, and less than four weeks previously this jilan was absolutely turned down by the Hospitals Commission. After consultation with the Director-General of the medical service, they stated that it was not necessary to have a large clearing home in the district, as the men could be sent directly from Quebec to the small homes, and what were these small homes? Simply places scattered over the district, offered voluntarily, which had been reported upon by the Militia Department, and we had to get rid of this system, and we suggested a different proposition. We went to the city of Toronto, and went to Bishop Strachan school and having jurisdiction over the district, we proposed to establish a central home of our own. Q. You might answer my question? — A. This is an answer to the question. The Chairman: We would like to hear it. The Witness : We proposed this central scheme, a comprehensive scheme of deal- ing with it, which was rejected by the Hospitals Commission. Later on they decided to try it out here. The Secretary of the Hospitals Commission and Mr. George met me in Toronto. We went over Bishop Straehan's school and the following day we went to the Board of Control. They had appointed various committees. They got behind our scheme and immediately disbanded their committees, and lent their aid to put this plan in operation. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Suppose you answer my question now? — A. I am coming to that. That was one plan we adopted to get rid of this idea of- having the men all over the country in places where they would have no facilities for treatment. Q. You recommended these men being out-patients? — A. Then in order to carry out this scheme in accordance with this sj^stem which only provided one clearing house [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 729 for the district, we had to develop the out-patients system because of the lack of accom- modation. The one place would not provide it, and at that time I advised in connec- tion with this the development of an out-patient system, rather than opening up such homes as had been proposed by the ]\Iilitary Hospitals Commission. By that I refer particularly to these small homes offered all over the country which provided absolutely no facilities for treatment, such for instance as the St. Catharines Home, which has been practically useless to the medical service in dealing with these men. The idea was to get away from the small homos, and it was this central idea, and the development of the out-patient system along with it that took the Hospitals Commission away from the idea of these small useless homes in the out-lying districts. Q. It is a singular thing now that you should say that. It would be well if you would read the paragraph to which I now direct your attention to show that that uas not in your mind at all. If you will refer to the report you sent to the Chairman of the Military Hospitals Commission you will observe this sentence: " In cases of men who are allowed to go to their homes" ? — A. What is that? Q. In the report to the Chairman of the Hospitals Commission. You wrote this sentence ? — A. What is the number of it Q. The report you made in November? — A. I want the number of the paragraph. Q. It is the paragraph you added to the one I just read? — A. In my copy the paragraphs are numbered. I am merely asking for the number of it. Q. Have you the paragraph I read a minute ago? — A. I will have to ask you to read it again until I recognize it. Q. " When no treatment is required, a man's home is considered," etc., and then you proceed : " Such an out-patient system is capable of expansion to any degree." Have you that? — A. Yes. Q. Will you observe the paragraph as you added to it before you sent in the report reading as follows : " In cases of men who are allowed to go to their homes in locations removed from convalescent home centres" — not scattered all over the country? — A. Yes. Q. What have you to say to that? You were not talking about little homes then? You were talking about convalescent home centres? — A. My last page of the copy seems to have got disconnected from the others. I am sorrj', but I do not appear to have the last page of this report. Q. In your previous evidence you have made it clear to the committee that the out-patient system was established on account of lack of accommodation. That is a fair thing to say, is it not? — A. The out-patient system^ Q. That is your evidence on the previous occasion? — A. I said, if you refer to my evidence, " When these central convalescent hospitals were established, in many cases they were inadequate to accommodate all the returned men, so that the out-patient system was adopted, whereby men did not live in the hospital, but reported there for examinations." Q. The out-patient system dates back to the recommendation of November, 1915? —A. Yes. Q. And at that time there was no shortage of accommodation, nor has there been except at odd intervals ever since, according to figures? — A. I still maintain that previous to the time this convalescent hospital was opened, which was in November, 1915, there was a lack of accommodation. There was nothing here except one or two small hospitals, which did not provide any facilities for treatment. Q. How many returned men came back before November, 1915? — A. I cannot tell you. Q. What was the demand for accommodation in the Toronto district? — A. I cannot tell you the demand, but I can only tell you this, that the system was such that it did not allow us to Q. Do not talk generalities, you are the A.D.M.S. ? — A. Yes, sir. [Colonel F. W. Mario w. J 730 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. What was the number in 1915 in the Toronto District?— A. I cannot give you the figures. Q. Have you not got the figures with you? — A. I have not brought the figures. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Was there a shortage? — A. Previous to that time we only had one small home in this district, and that was the one By Mr. Bennett: Q. Was there a shortage? — A. Certainly there was a shortage. Q. What did it amount to? — A. I cannot tell you the figures. (^ Was there a shortage of ten beds? — A. I cannot tell the figure. Q. How many beds were there? — A. At that home I think there were 19 or 20 beds. Q. And that was the extent of the accommodation in the whole Toronto District? — A. That was the accommodation at that particular time. Q. At the time the Commission was starting its operation? — K. That was in November. The Commission was appointed in June, 1915. Q. What provision had they made in the Toronto District for beds in any home at that time? — A. I am not able to tell you that, because of the fact that the men sent up previous to that time were boarded at Qiiebec and sent singly to their destina- tion. We did not know whether the men were here or not, except when they reported from the Quebec Discharge Depot. Sometimes they were not reported and we did not know the men were here. Q. What was the shortage of beds? — A. I cannot say what the shortage was, but I can say that had we been able to gather the men together there would not have been accommodation for them. Q. Do you say that you could not gather them together? — A. We could not. They were not amenable to discipline, they had been discharged. Q. And there was no chance of a shortage so far as they were concerned? — A. These men were wrongly discharged, later on they were reinstated. Q. Now, as the out-patient system which you recommended in November, 1915 ? — A. I recommended that in conjunction with our central plan in order to avoid the necessity of opening up these small homes, which they had proposed to open up. Q. Then the out-patient recommendation was not the growth from lack of accom- modation, that is clear? — A. The out-patient system was developed at that time, I say, in conjunction with the policy to Q. Answer my question. The out-patient system was not developed from lack of accommodation, it was a separate and distinct recommendation by you? — A. Yeti, but Q. You cannot say anything else? — A. But with this modification. I do not say unqualifiedly "yes." I say yes, if you admit this further statement to my evidence: That it was developed in conjunction with the central plan in order to rid us these proposed small homes, we did not want small" homes. Q. It was a question of policy? — A. It was a question of policy. Q. The Military Hospitals Commission, in 1915, developed central convalescent homes and extended its hospital accommodation. That is true, is it not? — A. Will you put the question again? Q. The question is this: The Military Hospitals Commission did extend its accommodation and naturally required new homes in the Toronto district? — A. At what time? Q. In November, 1915? — A. Certainly. The next step, which was taken on my recommendation, was to provide another large home. Q. And the home was acquired? — A. Yes, it was. [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] RECEPTION, THEATMEyr AND RE-EDUCATION 731 Q. And it was furnished? — A. Yes. Q. And is now in operation? — A. Yes. Q. And side by side with that was developed on your recommendation the out- patient system? — A. Previous to the establishment Q. Say yes or no to my question? — A. Previous to the establishment of the second I recommended the second large hospital in order to provide the accommoda- tion which would be required in the near future. Before that was opened up I advised my medical officers to bring in all the out-patients that the accommodation would provide for. That is to say, we adopted the out-patient system at that time as a matter of policy in order to centralize the work and get rid of these small homes outside. After the opening of another large hospital we adopted a change of policy to bring in our out-patients, because, you understand; at this time we had made up our minds that these men would make better progress if they were under immediate supervision. Q. Xow, will you answer the question, please: Side by side with the development of your Central Convalescent Homes you had your out-patient system iji operation? — A. Yes, sir. Q. On your recommendation? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And you have never recommended to the contrary? — A. I beg your pardon? Q. You have never made a recommendation to the contrary? — A. It was not necessary that I should. Q. Just answer my question. Have you ever recommended the contrary? — A. Have I ever recommended to whom? Q. To the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. It was not necessary for me to recommend to the Military Hospitals Commission. Q. Did you or did you not? Answer the question yes or no ? — A. Well, my action — Q. Answer the question yes or no, please? — A. My action was a recommendation io the !Nrilitary Hospitals Commission to do away with the out-patients. Q. Have you ever recommended to this day to the ^Military Hospitals Commission that the out-patient system be abandoned? ^Ir. Pardee: My learned friend wants you to say no without giving an explana- tion. Say no, and then go on and give your explanation? — A. No, I have not. Mr. Pardee : Now, go on and give your explanation. The Witness: But I may say that I have discussed this matter at different times with the officials of the Hospitals Commission, and if 1 adopted a change of policy in my own district when I had control over the medical arrangements — if I adopted a change of policy when the accommodation was available to permit a change of system — is not that sufficient recommendation? Bv Mr. Bennett: Q. That is your defence? Just as you say?— A. Is not that sufficient recom- mendation for any change of policy? Q. You have changed your policy and abandoned the out-patient system? — A. Previous to the opening of Knox College. Q. When was that, please? — A. I am sorry I cannot say without going through nij- corresix)ndence. You ask me "When was Knox College opened"? Q. Yes, for medical purposes? — A. The secretary of the local branch could give you the exact date. Q. He is not the A.D.^l.S.. you are?— A. I may advise you, as far as that goes, that the medical officer whom I deputize to look after that work is here, and probably would be able to answer that question. Q. If you say you do not know, that is another matter? — A. Just wait a minute, please. (Refers to memoranda.) I do not admit that. I do not know. It is pos- sible T was away on my inspection trip at that particular time. However, the date is easily available and can be obtained from various officers who are here now. [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] 732 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.^RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Let me ask you this question : Yon say you abandoned the out-patient system because you had sufficient accommodation, is that right? — A. I do not say that we abandoned the out-patient system entirely. I say that I ordered my medical officers to gather up all the out-patients whom they thought would be better treated as in-patients and to put them into the hospital. Q. Why did you not say that before? You did that because you thought they would be better treated as in-patients? — A. Certainly. But I do not say that at any time we entirely abandoned the out-patient system. Q. When did you give those orders? — A. I cannot tell you the exact date. Q. Was it before you delivered your address before the Medical Association in June last? — A. I presume it was later. Q. In June, 1916, you read a paper before the Ontario Medical Association? — A. Yes, sir, I did. Q. In that paper you made use of these observations: (Eeads) : ''As many of the invalids do not require to be retained as in-patients, a M^ell organized out-patient service has been established. All out-patients are on pass, and are required to report at stated times, and invalids absent from the hospital without passes are dealt with as being absent without leave." Now, do you say that you made that statement to your fellow practitioners? — A. Just a minute (referring to memoranda). I have the copy. Q. I am reading from a printed report of your address ? — A. May I ask you to give me the words again. Q. (Reads) : " As many of the invalids do not require to be retained as in-patients, a well-organized out-patient service has been established?" — A. Yes, sir, I have found those words. Q. You made this address to the Medical Association of your Province? — A. Yes. Q. And at that time you were explaining to them the system under which the Military Hospitals Commission was being operated among other things ?-r-A. I was explaining the system under which the medical services in this district were being operated. Q. Including the care for returned soldiers? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And necessarily the work of the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And in that address, as late as June, 1916, you made no complaint of lack of accommodation, that is clear? — A. Not in a paper of this kind, certainly. Q. You had no complaints to make in June, 1916, about the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. May I say that Q. Answer that, in that paper ? — A. I will not answer that. May I say that at no time have I had any relations with the Military Hospitals Commission that were ot)ier than distinctly cordial, and the Military Hospitals Commission authorities, I take it, will state that I have done everything in my power in this district to further the arrangements of the medical service to the returned soldiers in such a way that they could be taken over by the Military Hospitals Commission at any minute. I have had no quarrel with the Hospitals Commission. You assume that I have been quarrelling with the Hospitals Commission. I have not. Q. Very well, then. Colonel Marlow, just let me ask you this: What do you mean by saying that there was a lack of accommodation for patients? In your former testi- mony you reiterated that statement several times. Now, I ask you what you meant by it? — A. I said that in some districts there was lack of accommodation. By the Chairman: Q. That refers to the general report that you made after your tour throughout Canada ? — A. I presume that refers to my report after my inspection in September and October. I know positively at that time that most of the patients in No. 6 District [Colonel F. W. R'larlow.] RECEPTION. TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 733 By Mr. Bennett: Q. What did you mean by saying that there was lack of accommodation provided by the Military Hospitals Commission in your own District, Unit "D"? — A. I say that there is lack of accommodation at the present time. Q. But those troops had not come in then that you were talking about the other day. You said in your former testimony that, there was a lack of accommodation, but the records show that there has always been a surplus of accommodation? Why throw discredit on your own operations? When did you make any complaints to the Military Hospitals Commission of lack of accommodation? — A. Unfortunately, you understand that a great many of our communications are conducted by telephone, and we have no telephone records that we can introduce into the evidence. Q. No, but yet you say this — and this is one of the vital points that this com- mittee was appointed to look into — the records show that there has been a surplus of accommodation at all times, except when a ship came in the other day, and I ask yuu why you went into the witness box and left the impression which has been spread broadcast that the Military Hospitals' Commission in " D " Unit failed to supply adequate accommodation for returned soldiers, when such, according to the record, is not the fact? — A. Well, so far as this district is concerned, and as I have told you, I would have to go into the figures which you have presented to give you the explana- tion. But we have had the problem to meet. We are responsible for dealing with these men in a medical way. We have instituted an out-patients system, and that system has never been entirely, and probably will not be, entirely abandoned. We have unquestionably been suffering, ^ly medical officers in the convalescent hospitals are constantly complaining of the difficulty of finding beds for the men, and these complaints have been coming to me for some considerable time past. Q. Well, Colonel Marlow, show me your complaints or requisition to the Military Hospitals' Commission for further space? — A. Well, I cannot show — I cannot intro- duce into the evidence — any document, but I have discussed the matter with the officers of the Military Hospitals' Commission. Q. Then there is no document? — A. My medical officer, Major Munn, has on various occasions, I presume, communicated with the O.C. in respect to this problem. Q. But you are in charge of the district, and I ask you for any official com- munication sent by you as the medical officer in charge to the Military Hospitals' Commission complaining of lack of accommodation. That is a fair question? — A. In respect to that question, if there were any documents that have been sent in by tny medical officer, then I think they sh-^uld be put in. Q. But any you sent ? — A. You understand that Major Munn was detailed by me last February to take on this work in our own casualty department which we had organized to look after this problem, and ^lajor Munn has continued to do that work more recently under the direction of the Military Hospitals' Commission, although not seconded to them. His dealings have been entirely, in respect to accommodation, with officers of the Hospital Commission, not through me, but directly with them. By the Chairman: Q. This is largely a question of fact, and the committee would, I think, like to have you prepare a statement along this line, showing the available beds for returned men, the beds occupied by returned men, the bods you have vacant for returned men, and the returned men as out patients still undischarged, for each month from Novem- ber, 191.5, to date. The committee could then judge for themselves from the figures submitted. You have those records, I suppose? — A. I have not the records in my office, because we were notified by headquarters to discontinue sending the monthly reports. They have been sent by the Hospitals' Commission. Q. You can secure them? — A. Only through the Military Hospitals' Commission office. [Colonel F. "W. Marlow.] 734 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Well, we will secure them from the Military Hospitals' Commission office in due time? — A. My medical officer, Major Munn, may be able to collaborate it with me. Q. We will ask you to compile it, and also request the Military Hospitals Commission to do so, so that the committee may have the figures, as it is a matter of fact. By Mr. Bennett: Q. It was your judj^nent in November, 191.5, and June, 1916, and I still take it to be your judgment, that the out-patient system should continue?— A. I still main- tain that there is a small percentage of the men who can be treated as out-patients, but that percentage is a very small one. Q. Now, leaving that, and coming to this record, it would follow of course that the number of out-patients would always represent some portion of the total number in the unit? — A. A small proportion, very small. Q. Coming to the question of tuberculosis cases By Sir James Lougheed: Q. Col. Marlow, before you leave that question, I would like to ask you whether you ever prepared a list of the out-patients that should be brought in, or make an examination of the out-patients that should be treated in the convalescent homes? — A. Not personally. Q. Did any of your medical officers do so? — A. Our medical officers are in constant touch with the physical condition of all our patients. Q. Did you ever have a list prepared and submit it to the Military Hospitals Commission, to give the commission that information as to the bringing in of out- patients so that accommodation should be provided for them? — A. Not personally. Q. But I am asking you if you are aware that any of your medical officers did so? — A. I can only say that I requested my medical officers to find all the out- patients that could' be treated as in-patients and bring them in. Q. You throw the responsibility upon the Hospitals Commission of not providing proper accommodation. Now then I ask you for the purpose of being accurate — we all want to be accurate in making this investigation — as to whether you did prepare such a list, or whether your officers did prepare, or whether you are aware that the Military Hospitals Commission was made aware that specific numbers of out-patients were to be brought in. It was your duty to keep in touch with them, to have them report to you from time to time, and to make examination of their condition, was it not?— A. Yes. Q. Would it not be reasonable to suppose that under those conditions you would require to have an accurate list prepared as to the condition of these men, and that you would indicate to the Hospitals Commission that it was necessary to bring into their homes these men, was that ever done? — A. I cannot answer that question definitely, but I presume it was done by my officers. Q. As a matter of fact, I am aware that it was not done, but I am asking you do you know that it was? — A. I said that this matter had been left in the hands of my deputy. I made the request that these men should be brought in, and a proper list must have been prepared, because they were brought in. Q. You will recall that Major Munn did not enter upon the service of the Hospitals Commission until a comparatively recent period. It was upon the opening of the Spadina Home that Major Munn entered into the service of the Hospitals Com- mission. Previous to that, at any time, are you aware that this was done — I am quite candid with you in saying that I am not aware of it, and I have been closely in touch with the work of the Commission from the beginning that any such representations were made to the Commission ? — A, A Major Munn has been in constant touch with the officers of the Military Hospitals Commission and there are many things that h?,va IColon«l F. W. Marlow.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 735 occurred of which I have no personal knowledge. I can say that I can ask my medical officer whether there was such a list. Q. Personally you are unaware whether it was done or not? — A. I presume it was done because it was my order that these men should be brought in. Q. Do not let us indulge in presumptions, because I am entirely unaware of it, and 1 have been closely in touch with the work ever since the beginning. — A. Might I call attention to the fact that by a general order which was put on the table yesterday, by the General Officer commanding this district— I would not refer to this matter had it not been put in evidence by my Commanding Officer — and in that document there is a quotation which throws the responsibility entirely upon the Hospitals Com- mission, of determining when a convalescent hospital is to be opened. It in no way would place the responsibility upon the medical service, it does not require that they even ask our advice in order to determine when a hospital is necessary. Q. But how will the ]\lilitary Hospitals Commission become aware of the fact that outdoor patients are being brought in under the authority of the medical officers and that accommodation has to be provided for them, if the medical officers do not com- municate that fact to the Hospitals Commission? — A. That is what I am wondering about — how we are going to carry that order into effect, unless the Medical Service determines when these men are to be brought in and the accommodation for them provided. For instance I have five hundred patients to-day that are now out-patients and we require to get them into the hospital. Q. It is quite clear that it can only be brought about by harmony of action and co-operation between the Military Hospitals Commission and the ^Medical Service? — A. The responsibility is placed upon whom? Who is going to determine when it is necessary that these 500 out patients should be treated in a hospital? Q. I am asking you if you submitted to the Military Hospitals Commission a list of those men for whom accommodation was required? — A. Major Wilson and Major Munn are here, and in fact they have a list of all their out-patients. Q. But have they communicated it to the Military Hospitals Commission ? — A. I presume so, Major Wilson is an officer of the Military Hospitals Commission. Q. Let us not indulge in presumption. Do not think I am critical, I am simply asking you whether you know that it was done or not? — A. iAfajor Wilson is the officer who prepares the regular states of patients daily. By the Chairman: Q. What is the recognized means of communication — the official channel of com- munication — between you and the Hospitals Commission? Plow do you communicate with that body in an official way? — A. I presume my official channel of communica- tion would be through the general officer commanding the dislj-ict and the secretary of the ^lilitia Council through which the communication would be forwarded to the Military Hospitals Commission. Q. But you would make it to General Logie? — A. That would be the official channel of communication, thence to Ottawa, and the matter would be referred from Ottawa to the Hospitals Commission. Q. You would not send it direct to the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. No, I cannot conduct official correspondence with the ^filitary Hospitals Commission. Q. Then your interchange of communications with the representatives of the Hospitals Commission here is purely of an informal and friendly co-operative char- acter? — A. Yes. By Sir James Loughecd: Q. You may remember that there are communications that appear on the record direct from you to the Plospitals Commission? — A. Yes, there are, certainly; but I am speaking of my official channel of commxmication, which is always through my General Officer Commanding, except in general technical medical matters. [Colonel F. W. ZMnrlow] 736 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Then if I say to you that Colonel Thompson, who is the medical director of the Hospitals Commission, has not received for months any communication in respect to incoming out-patients or accommodation required for them, are you prepared to say he is making an incorrect statement? — A. No, because Colonel Thompson has not bi.cn in communication with me for several months; he has been in constant com- munication with my medical officer, Major iMunn. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. If there were such inadequacy of accommodation would it not be the duty of the officer commanding the Military Hospitals Command unit to report that matter to Colonel Thompson himself? — A. I presume so, as the responsibility is on the Mil- itary Hospitals Commission. Q. If there were inadequacy, that should be reported by Major Wilson himself? — A. Major Wilson is in a better position to know how many out-standing patients there are, because he prepares the roll and keeps the record. By the Chairman: Q. Whose duty is it to furnish that information in the interests of returned soldiers? — A. Well, sir, this whole matter has been in the hands largely of the Hos- pitals Commission until that order, and that order will place the responsibility on the Hospitals Commission of determining when and where a hospital should be opened. And when it is ready for occupation, then it is our duty to provide the medical staff: that is all' the responsibility we are charged with. By Mr. Pardee: Q. There was evidence given here yesterday that 550 out-patients at present were in this District No. 2. Do you know, as a matter of fact, that that number are out- patients? — A. Only from the information which I am able to obtain from ]\[ajor Wilson. Q. Did he tell you that? — A. Yes, I have consulted with Major Wilson at dif- ferent times as to the number of out-patients in this district. Q. Then you and Major Wilson do know the number of out-patients? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Then, in regard to these out-patients, is it his duty or is it your duty to report to the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. I presume it is the duty of Major Wilson to report to the Hospitals Commission. Q. Then, if Major Wilson reports to the Hospitals Commission, where do you come in at any time either before or after that report? — A. According to my recent orders, if the Military Hospitals Commission determines, not looking into the future, but because of the facf that there are now 500 or over out-patients in this district, that another hospital should be opened, then when that hospital is ready for occupa- tion it is my duty to provide a medical staff for that hospital. Q. Why would Major Wilson know of those 550? Where does he come in to know that ? — A, Because every man returning to this district is taken on the strength of ]\rajor Wilson's unit. If he is discharged on the recommendation of the ]\redical Board he is struck off the unit. Major Wilson has his nominal roll, and has the name, number and rank of every man who is in the convalescent class. Q. Then, would Major Wilson know whether or not that man ought to go to a Convalescent Home? — A. No, sir. Q. From where would he get that information? — A. From the medical officers. Q. And that would be whom? — A. His direct channel would be through Major Munn. Q. And through Major Munn to you? You are the authority over Major Munn? — A. Well, since this change of order I am in authority over ]\[ajor Munn, and have been always to a certain extent, but Major Munn has been carrying on for the Hos- [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] i RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 737 pitals Commission for several months, and not until this order came into effect has Major Munn been entirely responsible to me. Q. Am I right in this; 550 men are here, Major Wilson is the first one to know of these 550 men being here for a convalescent home, or 550 men that are here for treatment? — A. He is the responsible administrative officer. Q. Is he the one to whom the fact is communicated? — A. Yes, sir; he has his daily parade statement. Q. And he is of the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. Yes. Q. Does he communicate that fact to Major Munn? — A. I presume so, because Major Munn has been occupying offices in the hospitals commission building alongside of Major Wilson. Q. And tiien does Major Munn communicate that to you? — A. Well, sir, he has not begun yet under this new order, but previously he did not. Q. Then up to the time this new order was issued, Major Munn, acting partly for the A.D.M.S. and partly for the M.H.C., received that information; then it stayed with Major Munn, but since the new order Major IMunn now communicates that infor- mation to you? — A. Yes, Major Munn should be entirely responsible to me. Q. Then when you get that information, what is your line of action? — A. Well, I presume my line of action would be to point out Q. To whom would you point out? — A. To the Military Hospitals Commission, because it would be expected of them to determine that an additional hospital is neces- sary; but under present conditions I would report to them, at least advise them urgently, that another hospital was necessary here. Q. Would you have those 550 men paraded before you, and tell them what treat- ment is desired for each man ? — A. Well, not paraded. Q. Would you examine them? — A. Well, my medical officers have examined these men. Q. Then they are examined under you with your staff? — A. They are examined under me, yes. Q. And this examination is conclusive as to what treatment ought to be accorded them?— A. Yes. Q. Then when they are classified, and you know just exactly what is required, is it your duty to report to the Hospitals Commission, and the Hospitals Commission resumes responsibility? Is that the sort of genealogical tree that grows up, and then when beds are provided, or accommodation is provided, you as the medical officer treat them ; is that the modus operandi ? — A. Well, practically ; but it would create an impos- sible situation if we were to wait until we got 500 men, and have them classified, and then report to the Hospitals Commission that we want hospital accommodation. Q. What will you do with these 550 men now ? — A. I cannot do anything until we get accommodation for them. They are all patients who are on pass. I may say that there is a difference between patients on pass and out-patients. Q. Tell us that? — A. As brought out in previous statements, out-patients are merely men who do not require any active treatment whatever, and whom it is thought can be trusted to behave themselves at their homes, and whose progress will not be interrupted in any way by their being at their homes — perhaps may be expedited. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex): Q. Whose surroundings at home are better than those of a hospital? — A. Yes. Those are out-patients, but many other men are patients on pass, not with the inten- tion of making them out-patients. By Sir James Lougheed: Q. What would be the distinction in numbers of those two classes in those 550 men? How many should really be brought in? — A. Well, Major Munn, who has been 28277—47 [Colonel F. W. Mar low.] 738 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.-RETURN ED SOLDIERS in ... closer touch with the medical condition of those 550 men, stated in his evidence yesterday, I think, that at least 75 per cent of those men should be treated as in-patients. Mr. Pardee (To Major Munn) : Was it 90 per cent of those men you said should be treated? Major Munn : Yes. Mr. Pardee: That 90 per cent of those 550 should be pass patients? Major Munn: No, in-patients. The Witness: You might say that that represents the number of patients that are on pass, and it is not determined to treat them as out-patients. By the Chairman: Q. I want to ask you one question: You have a military base hospital in this district?— A. Yes. Q. How many beds have you there?— A. We have approximately 800 beds at the present time — Q. How many at the present time are full? — A. I am sorry I could not tell you without the report. Q. Approximately would half of them be full ?— A. I would say between four and five hundred at the present time. I could give it to you accurately later. Q. In other words, there is still considerable unoccupied accommodation at your base hospital ? — A. There is a considerable number of beds and I may say that we have not as many beds in the base hospital as there might be because we have not had the use for them. Q. To what extent do you take up accommodation which is provided by the Mili- tary Hospitals Commission which is presumably for returned soldiers, by camp cases which you should treat at your base hospital ? — A. I presume at the present time there are 15 or 20 men there. I would not be positive. Q. You have plenty of space at the base hospital, and you are lacking in accom- modation at the hospitals for returned soldiers. Why do you not take the camp cases which you have in the returned soldiers hospitals and remove them to the base hospi- tal? — A. For this reason: that there are certain types of cases that will require to have convalescent treatment over a long time. Q. Why do you not have your base hospital take care of these cases ? — A. Because the convalescent hospital, particularly the one on College street is equipped in such a way that these cases can be treated there. Q. Is it fair to fill up the accommodation originally intended for returned men with camp cases and then have returned men living in their homes, when they ought to be in the hospitals of the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. Well, probably, sir, it is not fair, but we are acting in accordance with our instructions 'x) transfer to the Mili- tary Hospitals Commission hospital certain of our camp cases. For instance our tuber- cular cases are all transferred to them, and there are certain other cases that require a long period of convalescence, and not active treatmen* 'ases, which the hospital pro- vides — By Sir James Lougheed: Q. That is a forced condition thrown upon the Hospitals Commission on account of your inability here to furnish the necessary accommodation for them. It was not contemplated when the Commission was organised that they should assume that work, and it was only owing to the fact that we had that accommodation that we were forced to take in those men? — A. I may say this, itiat in most other districts in Canada, if a battalion of the expeditionary force proceeds overseas and leaves behind it a number of men in the hospital, or men unable to proceed with the unit, these men in most instances, except this district, are immediately transferred to the Military Hospitals Commission unit, and from that ti'jae are a part of that unit. [Colonel P. W. Marlow.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 739 By Mr. Bennett: Q. Although it was not originally so provided or contemplated? — A. Well, it was provided in tlie Order in Council or amendment to it creating the Commission that they would look after men in Canada as well. By Sir James Lougheed: Q. On account of the inadequacy of your provision to look after them? (No answer.) By Mr. Bennett: Q. You say_there is a shortage of Military Hospitals Commission accommodation in D unit at the present minute. That is Toronto district? — A, Yes. Q. ind you have a surplus number of beds in your base hospital at the present minut-i of how many? — A. I would not like to make a positive answer, because the records would be available. By telephoning to my office, I could tell you how many beds exactly. Q. It is several hundred I am told, and equal in number to the number of patients requiring treatment? — A. Not equal to that number. Q. Equal to the number requiring treatment, excluding out-patients? 3Iajor MuNN: 75 vacant beds in the base hospital yesterday. The Witness: But we are not using our total accommodation at the base hospital, because when the Hospitals Commission did not see fit to use the base hospital we took down a very large number of beds, and those beds can be erected in two hours if Q. And when Major Munn said there were only 75 beds there it is misleading. How many could you put up between now and 6 o'clock? — A. Put up probably a couple of hundred. Q. ;My information is that you have been using the convalescent home for your camp cases during the summer in this district; that is right, is it not? — A. Such cases as are transferred to the Hospitals Commission unit. Q. And that arises largely because of the men being unfit for overseas services on the ultimate examination? — A, No, largely because these men require a long period of convalescence, and that the facilities for treatment there are such perhaps as are not installed at the base hospital. Q. You are responsible for the medical care of all the men in this district for overseas services in your various positions throughout the district? — A. Yes. Q. And they examined the men and put them on the units, and when they went overseas many of them were rejected? — A. Yes. Q. And those men you changed over from your hospital to the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. Yes, that is, some of them. Q. And I find on June 17, 1916, there wei-e in the convalescent homes in this district overseas men 51G, and of your camp men 223, and on August 19, 1916, there were only 326 overseas men in the convalescent home in D unit, and 226 camp mea still in the sanitarium. You had in sanatoria of overseas men only 161. and you had 179 camp men. Then in October, 1916, in the convalescent homes there were overseas men 542, but the camp cases had risen to 304. That would be towards the fall when they were going overseas in large numbers? — A. I cannot accept any responsibility for those figures without knowing their source and having a chance to study them. Q. I find of the sanatorium cases of overseas patients only 20S, and the camp cases 214, absorbing over half the patients? — A. Regarding the tuberculosis cases, those cases were not all sent from this district. This district was taking cases froE ether districts. Q. All the camp cases of this district would go there? — A. Yes. 28277— 47A [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] 740 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. It would be correct to say that all the camp cases would be with D unit but all the overseas cases would not necessarily be from Toronto district? — A. No, not necessarily from Toronto district. The camp cases are not all from Toronto district. They were taking cases in this district from London district, Kingston district, and various other districts. Q. I find in January this year the overseas men amounted to 1,336, and you had 235 camp men and in sanitaria overseas 271, camp men, 271, and you had a week ago in the convalescent homes 1,569 overseas and 286 camp men, and in the sanitaria 285 overseas and 218 camp men. Nearly half the space taken up by the civil population at that time in civil uniform, men who were unfit for service, men who have not been overseas at all? — A. Yes, so far as sanitaria are concerned. Q. I am advised that in most cases that results from inadequate medical examina- tions in the first instance?— A. It is not altogether the direct result, it is perhaps the indirect result, and perhaps one of the natural wastages of the expeditionary force, the training. Q. Is it not a fact that having regard — perhaps you cannot answer this till you look up your figures — having regard to the accommodation provided by military organization in the Toronto district at base hospital to the number of men that should properly be taken out, there is sufficient accommodation in this district in the convalescent home and in the military hospital, not necessarily all put up, to accommodate all the men sent there at this time? — A. If all the beds at the military hospital here and at Hamilton were made use of and the convalescent homes, but I do not know how many camp men are in the convalescent homes at the present minute. Q. On the 8th of March we had 286? — A. I am not aware of any such figures as that. Q. Does that not harmonize with the data which you have? — A. I could not say, positively, Major Wilson could inform you as to that. But if that is the case those men would have to be provided with accommodation. Then the remaining accommoda- tion at the Military Hospital would not be sufficient to take up the surplus of returned men. But I might say this, sir : That the accommodation offered from the Base Hos- pital has not been taken advantage of. I had, presumably, no authority to direct that the men should go there. Q. You are, and always have been, since the commencement of this war, A.D.M.S. of this district? — A. Yes, sir, since April 22, 1915. Q. And have all the powers, privileges and authority that belong to such an office? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Major Munn was never seconded to the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. No. Q. There is no order to that effect and one has never been given? — A. No. Q. And he is still under the orders of his superior officer, namely yourself. — A. Yes, at the present time. Q. And he has never been taken from under your control by any order of the Militia Department? — A. No, but Major Munn has been carrying on the work for the Medical Superintendent of the Hospitals Commission in the district as well. Q. I follow that, Colonel Marlow, but, to use your own word again, he has not been seconded, and is absolutely under the control and direction, subject to military law, of his superior officer. Colonel Marlow. — A. Yes, except as I say, that this direct responsibility was encroached upon by the arrangement with the Military Hospitals Commission. Q. But Major Munn was not seconded? — A. A man is usually paid by the persons by whom he is employed ? Major Munn has been under pay of the Hospitals Commis- sion for some months, and naturally recognizes a certain amount of responsibility to the Medical Superintendent of the Hospitals Commission. [Colonel P. W. Marlow.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 741 Q. But he is still the military subordinate of Colonel Marlow, A.D.M.S. of this District? — A. Yes, but as I showed in my evidence, certain orders of mine could not be put into effect because of the divided responsibility. That is to say, certain orders of mine were issued with respect to sending patients to the base hospital, and these orders were not carried out because the Military Hospitals Commission, who were charged with the expense of this whole problem, were paying Major Munn and were also paying for the hospital, have insisted that these patients should be sent to the civilian hospitals rather than to the base hospital. For that reason they went there. By the Chairman: Q. Were you, Colonel Marlow, or !Major Munn under you, responsible for deter- mining what camp cases should be sent to the hospital accommodation provided by the Military Hospitals Commission, that is convalescents or otherwise? — A. Any cases that are transferred to the Military Hospitals Commission Command are transferred there on the recommendation of a Medical Board, approved by me or my deputy. Q. Then you are practically responsible for sending camp cases that are in the hospitals of the Military Hospitals Commission to those institutions? — A. Yes, sir. But may I state Q. You could have kept them all if you had wanted to? — A. Except in certain cases where orders are definite to transfer them to the Commission? Q. You mean as to the class of cases? — A. Yes, sir. But may I say this: I have discussed this matter with the medical superintendent of the Hospitals Commission long since, and we determined on a certain amount of co-operation. We had certain facilities in the base hospitals which they did not have, facilities for the active treat- ment and surgical cases and more particularly venereal cases, for which they had no accommodation. We were perfectly willing to take their cases. By Sir James Lougheed: Q. Do you know. Colonel Marlow, that the Hospitals Commission have* nevei taken any venereal cases? — A. I know that, sir, but these venereal cases are returned soldiers, just the same as any other cases. Q. You know that in practice we have never taken any of these cases, and the Militia authorities exclusively have to look after them? — A. I know, sir, but in some districts there are no military hospitals to look after them. Q. I am speaking of the authority to look after them. That is to say, we only take such cases as are handed over to us by the military authorities? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That draws the line between where your work ends and ours commences? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You hand over to us such patients as we have to look after, but you have never handed to us any venereal cases? — A. No, certainly not. By the Chairmam: Q. One final question: If you had kept^'all your camp cases in your base hospital and had not unloaded them on to the Military Hospitals Commission would there not always have been sufficient accommodation here in your district for returned soldiers? — A. Well, sir, my impression is that there would not, but I would have to look up those figures you have brought forward in order to be positive. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. In answer to Mr. Bennett you stated that Major Munn is responsible to you for orders. You are his superior officer? — A. Yes. Q. Co\ild Major Wilson also give Major Munn orders as the head of the Military Hospitals Commission Command here? — A. I presume not, because Major Munn has not been in the Military Hospitals Commission Command. Q. Was Major Munn in any way under Major Wilson's direction? — A. No, sir. rcolonel F. W. Marlow.] 742 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS The Witness: Mr. Chairman, Mr. MoCurdy asked me to submit some memoranda regarding venereal diseases, which 1 have prepared. The Chairman: Very well, put them on the record. The Witness : May I just say this : These memoranda were prepared and it happened that at that particular time there was a meeting of the Academy of Medi- cine which is taking up the subject of venereal disease and prophylactic treatment with the Ontario and Dominion authorities. I presented these memoranda before the Academy of Medicine and they were endorsed by a resolution of the academy. I would like to file a copy of the memoranda and the endorsement. Documents filed as requested (see appendix re venereal diseases). Committee adjourned until 2.30 p.m. The Committee resumed at 2.40 p.m. The examination of Col. F. W. Marlow resumed. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Col. Marlow, in a report that you made, on page 180 of the evidence, in para- graph 12 you say : " The Commission prefer to send cases needing aotive surgical treatment to the Toronto General Hospital (Civil)." I am advised that no member of the Military Hospitals Commission has at any time ever advised the use of a civil hospital. Will you be good enough to give the name of the person to whom you refer? —A. That may be quite so in respect to the members of the Hospitals Commission, but the oificials of the Military Hospitals Commission insisted on these patients going to the civil hospital rather than to ours. Q. What officials? — A. The officials of the Hospitals Commission. Q. Give me the names, who is the gentleman in question? — A. Well, understand that this arrangement Q. Tell us not what you understand, but what official? — A. I understand that this arrangement was arrived at between Col. Thompson and the local secretary and probably by the medical officer, Major Munn. Q. That is not an answer, "probably " by somebody. You have said in your report definitely that the Commission preferred to send eases to the civil hospital. I am advised that this is not so? — A. I can only state that, in my opinion, the advice you refer to is wron*. Q. Your opinion is erroneous? — A. The opinion is not erroneous. Q. What did you base it on? — A. You will understand that I instructed my medical officers that these patients should be sent to the military base hospital if they required active treatment. Then, if there was not interference on the part of the Military Hospitals Commission, why did my officers not carry out my orders? Q. Will you now answer my question? If the Chairman will be good enough to tell the witness to answer my question it would expedite matters. On what did you base that statement? — A. I have told you already of the reason on which I based my statement; my orders in respect to that matter were not carried out. That was because of the decision of the Military Hospitals Commission officials to use the other accommodation and not to use the Military Hospital accommodation. Q. Did they tell you so? — A. Well, I may say this, that on a certain occasion we visited the military base hospital with the local secretary of the Hospitals Commis- sion and offered them certain accommodation there. His main objection to using that was that it was using accommodation not provided by the Hospitals Commissior, and he considered it might be a reflection on the Commission that they did not have sufficient accommodation. Q. To whom do you refer? — A. To Mr, Kiddell, the local secretary. [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] RECEPTION, TREATilEyr AND RE-EDUCATIOX 743 Q. Upon tliat you based paragraph 12? — A. Not altogether, sir. Q. You say they preferred to use the General Hospital, and I am advised that no member of the Commission has so instructed, and I want to know why you say that? — A. Do you make a distinction between the members of the Hospitals Commission and the ofKcials acting for them ? I do. Q. That is your answer, the best answer you can give? — A. As I told you, I make a distinction between the officials and the Commission. Q. What official told you? — A. It is not necessary that an official should tell me. When they take the action contrary to my orders and insist on my medical officers carrying it out, otherwise my medical officers would have carried out my orders. Q. Then, it is a matter of inference? — A. It is not a matter of inference. Q. What is it? — A. Well, you understand the situation which I explained to you was the divided control, and the medical officers, although under me, were being paid by the Hospitals Commission, and when preparing our casualty department to hand over to the Hospitals Commission, they w6re working for the Hospitals Commission as well as for me. They did not know whose orders to carry out on account of the mixed up situation which has been created. That is the difficulty with the whole thing at the present minute. Q. That is the only explanation you can give on that paragraph? — A. That expla- nation ought to be satisfactory to most men. Q. That is your explanation, on which you base that statement that " the Com- mission prefer to send cases" to the civil hospitals? — A. Yes. Q. That is all the explanation you can make? — A. I consider the explanation ia entirely satisfactory. Q. I would expect that you would. Now, let us go to the hospitals for tubercu- losis. You mentioned the other day in your evidence the Muskoka hospital, and when asked regarding why they used the Gravenhurst hospital you gave an answer to which I wish to direct your attention. Did you intend to convey by the many answers that you gave touching the free hospital the impression that that was a " free hospital," free to anybody who wanted to use it ? — A. No, sir, I did not. Q. Then it was not intended to leave the impj-ession that it was a free hospital in the sense that it did not cost anything to use it? — A. I used that because I believed that was the recognized name of the hospital. Q. Precisely. But I notice that the press took it up as being a free institution. What is your understanding of that? — A. I do not understand that it is a free institu- tion, in that sense, that patients are taken in there and maintained free. The majority of the patients at that hospital, I presume, are patients who are in there on the order of a city, town or other municipality, that they were paying for their maintenance, that the great majority of cases are not paying their own way, but arc, in other words, muni- cipal or city order cases. Q. You have not learned, as a matter of fact, that the charge made in respect of soldiers is $12 a week, which is the usual charge for those not residing in the Province of Ontario. Did you know that? — A. I understand there was an arrangement, that those living in the Province of Ontario were to be maintained there at their ordinary rates of maintenance, because there is a grant given by the Province of Ontario to make up a certain amount, and that those who were accommodated there outside of the Province of Ontario were accommodated at an increased rate, because the provincial grant could not be drawn for them. Q. Then you knew there was a charge of .$12 made for the soldiers? — A. I did not know what the exact charge has been. Q. You knew there was a charge being made? — A. Certainly. Q. And that the Military Hospitals Commission was paying that much? — A. I presume so. [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] 744 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. And that it was not a free institution, you knew that? — A. Certainly. Q. Now, you also knew I suppose that the authorities of that institution insisted upon the returned soldiers dispensing with their uniforms, and being in mufti, in common with the other patients there? — A. I heard rumours to that effect. Q. Did you make any investigation as to that matter? — A. As to their orders in that respect? Q. As to the whole of the regulations with regard to the running of the free Gravenhurst Sanitarium, or when did you make any investigation? — A. Certainly, I have been at the sanitarium on different occasions, and made an investigation into the running of the institution. Q. And you knew that they insisted upon the patients being in mufti? — A. I heard it but I did not know it officially. Q. You did not investigate that phase of it? — A. No. ^ Q. And did you learn that as a result of that they had rules and regulations which they insisted the soldier patients should obey? — A. Yes, they insisted that the men should obey the ordinary rule of the institution. Q. And that insistence led to some little difficulty? — A. It led to some of the men being discharged from the institution prematurely because there were no means provided by which men could be disciplined. Q. You would not say the men were discharged, you mean they were released from that institution? — A. They were discharged from the institution, not from the service. Q. I have here a letter of the 3rd March, for instance from the Muskoka Hos- pital at Gravenhurst, signed by the physician in charge, in which he says : "On the evening of February 27th, the men marginally named were in Gravenhurst without pass, after the hour of 6 p.m. Both men as far as I understand, were in the skating rink. "There is a rule which reads as follows: 'Any patient who is away from the grounds after 6 p.m. without a written pass from the physician will be discharged. No excuses will be taken or second chances given.' 'TBoth of these patients were conversant with this rule and also fully aware that exceptions were not made. Will you, therefore, kindly forward transportation for these men. "Enclosed you will find medical report on both patients." That would be one of the difficulties which arose to which reference has been made? — A. That would be a case where a man would not observe the rules of the institu- tion. Q. And that would be one class of the cases to which you referred? — A. Yes. Q. And the result of not obeying the rules of the institution was that he was discharged from that institution ? — A. Yes. Q. And is it not so that in consequence of that difficulty, and of the inability to make rules with respect to that institution, steps were taken to provide other sanatoria for tuberculous patients? — A. I am not prepared to admit that those were the special reasons. Q. That would be a particular reason? — A. Probably that would be a particular reason at that particular time. Q. And that particular reason has continued up to the present time? — A. But there were very many things that brought the situation up to that stage. Q. But it started in on that line. I have the correspondence here and the difficulty was that they had civilian patients already in the institution? — A. Certainly. [Colonel F. W. Mario w.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 745 Q. And they were under obligations to the Government of the Province of Ontario, by reason of receiving a grant from the province and had to continue that treatment to the civil patient? — A. Certainly. Q. And therefore the introduction of the returned soldier patients was something supplementing their ordinary work? — A. Yes. Q. And the difficulty arose from the very start with respect to the enforcing of the discipline in connection with the returned soldiers as distinct from the civilian patient? — A. Yes. Q. And the letter that I have just read seems to be one of recent date showing that there is just the same sort of complaint now as you remember at the early stages, and that the same difficulty has continued from the start? — A. Yes, that is true. Q. And it became necessary to provide for beds in an institution distinctively set apart for the returned tubercular soldiers where they would be governed by rules and regulations and discipline, that would be applicable to themselves alone, is not that so? — A. To a certain extent that is so, but I do not know how many sanatoria the Military Hospitals Commission have directly under their control at present, but I do not think there are very many. They have added accommodation at some of the existing sanatoria, that is to say they have been able to deal with certain sanatoria in the Dominion, but not with the oldest established sanatorium. Q. And that difficulty at the Muskoka Free Hospital arose from the fact that they have two classes of patients there, and that the authorities were under obli- gations to the Ontario Government with respect to their grant? — A. There was one feature of the situation, and that is that no definite arrangements were made with this institution, accommodation could have been secured in this institution under arrange- ments with the Military Hospitals Commission to increase their accommodation. Q. Mr. Gage said that they could not confine their activities purely to the. Mili- tary Hospitals Commission, that is true is it not? — A. I presume they did want to keep their civil work. Q. And the difficulty arose because of their inability to carry on their civil work and the returned soldiers' work, and the commission had to seek accommoda- tion in othenk- institutions? — A. The difficulty was more imaginary perhaps, than real. Q. Well, the matter of discipline was at the bottom of it at any rate? — A. Not altogether, I do not admit that. Now here is an institution which has been estab- lished for a great many years, and which is carrying on a good work and, at no time, has this institution been able to get any satisfactory arrangement with the Militia Department, or with the Military Hospitals Commission as to what part it might be expected to take in this work. In other words, what available acconmiodation they had was simply used without giving them any degree of satisfaction, in the matter of future prospects, and, until such time as they could secure acconmiodation else- where. By Sir James Lougheed: Q. Are you aware of several interviews that the Hospitals Commission had with Mr. Gage and his associates regarding the sanatorium at Gravenhurst? — A. I am not aware of those, but I am aware of certain communications which passed between myself and the physician in charge at the sanatorium. Q. I am asking you are you aware of the interviews that took place between the members of the Hospitals Commission and the management of this institution at Granvenhurst ? — A. I am not. Q. Then you do not know what the result of those conferences would be. If I tell you that it was utterly impossible to make arrangements with this institution, I suppose you are not prepared to controvert that ? — A. I am aware of the result of the first conference that was held with Mr. Gage, representing that institution, when it [Colonel r. W. Mario w.l 746 SPECIAL COifMITTEE—C.E.F^^RETURNED SOLDIERS was arranged they would provide accommodation for a certain number of men for the first six months, and for an added number of men during the first year — I am aware of that. Q. But are you aware that they wanted tlie Government to pay for the building of pavilions at the rate of $G50 a bed for every advanced case, and $150 for incipient cases, and that the Government of Canada was required to put up that amount of money, otherwise they would not deal with the Commission; were you aware of that? — A. I am not aware of that, sir. Q. Then, if I say that that is the case, you are not prepared to controvert it? — A. JSTo, sir, I am not prepared to controvert it, but I 'should presume from letters that I have on the matter as late as August 25th Mr. Bennett : I have a later one, the 25th November. The Witness : This was* August 25th, 1916. Sir James Lougheed: For your information I will say now that I am unaware of any cases in which the Commission entered more frequently into treaty with an institution than we did with the Gravenhurst institution with the view of looking after our men, but we found it utterly impossible to do business with them. They wanted us to put up all the money for the buildings. The Witness: The situation I refer to was when it was acute, when we could not find accommodation for tubercular patients, and that letter distinctly states that they have been unable to get any satisfactory arrangement with the Hospitals Com- mission; and I presume that what the Senator says with respect to business arrange- ments transpired since that time. Mr. Bennett: I think the Secretary of the Hospitals Commission should put in the whole of the correspondence, Mr. Chairman, and that will explain itself. On the IGth October, 191o, Mr. Riddell v/rote that the Secretary of the National Snuatorium Association had stated that the consideration was $12 a week. (To witness) : Did you know of that? The Witness: No, sir, I did not. By Mr. Bennett: Q. And on the 15th November last Major Munn, your second in command, tele- graphed to the Secretary of the Hospitals Commission at Ottawa as follows: — " Major Wilson and I interviewed Mr. Gage this morning. He expresses the greatest desire to assist us in every way, but refuses to come to any agree- ment." Did you know that ? — A. No, sir. Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : When was this offer made. Sir James ? Sir James Lougheed: It continued for over a year. We had interviews in Ottawa and we had interviews here with the management of this institution, but we could not do business with them at all, and we did not consider it advantageous for the Government to spend a large amount of money on the basis of $650 a bed for advanced cases and $150 a bed for incipient cases. The Chairman : While you were endeavouring to negotiate with them you passed by and made other arrangements? Sir James Lougheed: We exhausted all efforts. The Witness: When that situation was acute aiid when I criticised the facilities offered by the Mimiewaska Sanatorium By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. What time was that? — A. That was in August, 1016. The letter sent by me to the Commission was put in my evidence. I have here two letters received about [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 747 that time, one of which was written by Mr. Gage himself to me, and the other by Dr. Kendall, the physieian-in-chief, and I would like to have those placed in my evidence to show what my position in the matter was. Those tuberculosis patients were being kept back on my hands. I had no means of disposing of them, and the situation was extremely acute; that is the time when I criticised, if I criticised at all — when I drew attention to the inadequacy of the facilities for treating tuberculosis patients. Sir Jamks LoronEED: No question about that; we all realize that; we all realize the inadequacy at that time. The Witness: I would like to submit these letters as showing the sources of my information. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Who were those letters from?— A. Mr. Gage and Dr. Kendall. Q. Did you transmit them to the Military Hospitals Commission ?— A. No. Q. Then they remained within your knowledge only?— A. They remained within my knowledge, but I presume that the :Military Hospitals Commission was fully aware of the matter. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Major Munn knew of them? — A. Certainly. . Q. He was working for the Hospitals Commission? — A. Certainly; but T would like to file these as showing the source of my information : — Gravexhuust, Okt., August 25, lOlG. Col. F. W. Maklow, A.D.M.S., M.D. No. 2, Camp Borden, Ont. Dear Sir,— A year ago at the request of Mr. Scammell, Secretary of the Hospitals Commission, the trustees of the National Sanitarium Association agreed to make provision for one hundred soldier patients suffering from tuber- culosis. We at once set about securing the necessary accommodation at our own expense by the erection of an infirmary building, securing forty-one rooms for bed patients. We also erected three pavilions to accommodate sixty-two more. During the past twelve months the maximum number of patients in resi- dence at any one time was in the neighbourhood of forty. During a considerable portion of this period we had a long waiting list of civilian patients that could have been admitted had we not been holding beds for soldier patients. Some time ago a committee of the National Sanitarium Association was appointed to wait upon the Hospitals Commission and with this object in view we visited Ottawa. It was felt by our trustees that if we were to carry out suc- cessfully sanitaria treatment for soldier patients, some new regulations would require to be considered to avoid scandals that were certain to develop reflecting upon the good name of our institution and might at the same time give trouble to the Hospitals Commission itself. If patients (soldiers) could absent themselves without leave or become drunk without some means of checking — our task would be a hopeless one. I may say the Hospitals Commission recognized the difficulties that had arisen and promised that a conference would be shortly arranged to go into the whole question. This meeting has not yet taken place. Dr. Kendal, our physician in Muskoka, has just advised me that you have telegraphed him, notifying him that eight new patients were being sent from Camp Borden. In view of the present condition of affairs, I have felt it wise to telegraph you that we woul4 not be prepared to accept any other soldier patients uutil [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] 748 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS the whole matter was fully gone into and a solution found to the problem that sooner or later must be faced. Assuring you of the earnest wish of our trustees to co-operate with you and the Hospitals Commission in their work, believe me, Yours sincerely, (Sgd.) W. J. GAGE, President." Gravenhurst^ August 28, 1916. Col. F. W. Marlow, A.D.M.S., M.D. No. 2, Camp Borden. Dear Sir, — Mr. Gage visited our institution yesterday and had intended ■writing you, but as a stenographer was not available, he commissioned me to do so to-day. The matter to be discussed is still in reference to the soldier question. While Mr. Gage is anxious that you should know that he is interested and ever willing to do whatever possible for these unfortunate men, and for the Militia Department in caring for them, he cannot help but feel that some definite and permanent arrangement is imperative, and must be made at once, before we, as an institution, are prepared to accept any further responsibility financially or otherwise, in the matter. We are just beginning the erection of a forty bed pavilion to take care of the pressing needs in connection with civilian patients, and if arrangements warranted us caring for more sqldier patients, it would be necessary that ground space be set apart and buildings erected for this purpose forthwith. I received a telegram from Petawawa Camp, after my telephone conversa- tion with you a few evenings ago, in reference to a man coming on, and I wired them to send him on. I also received a wire from Winnipeg on Friday, stating that four men were on their way, and have two additional notifications from Borden, since the letter notifying us of eight, which was referred to in Mr. Gage's letter. Mr. Gage further feels that after reviewing the circumstances of the past and conditions prevailing at present, that we must ask you not to have any more notified to come on, until such time as the matter is mutually and satis- factorily adjusted. From what I understand, Mr. Gage is prepared to suggest to our trustee board that if the Militia Department is prepared to enter into a mutually satis- factory arrangement, the National Sanitarium Association, with their institu- tions at Weston and Muskoka, can take care of practically all the soldier patients seeking admission. Yours sincerely, (Sgd.) W. B. KENDALL, Ph ys icia n-in-Ch ief. By Sir James Lougheed: Q. You know, Colonel Marlow, that the tuberculosis situation suddenly developed, and we were therefore without adequate provision to meet the unlocked for condition at that time? — A. I am not prepared to admit that the tuberculosis situation sud- denly developed. Q. You handed us over nearly all your tubercular eases? — A. There was not a sufficient amount of anticipation in the matter. Q. Did you direct our attention to it? — A. Well, unfortunately [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 749 Q. They came from your particular district, and they represented more than 50 per cent — about 60 per cent — of the cases thrown on our hands? — A. Up till this time, at least until a short time previous to that, our camp cases were being sent direct to the sanatorium by ourselves, and not to the Hospitals Commission. Q. Then we would not know of them, and they were suddenly thrown on our hands ? Mr. Bennett: Those are the figures to which I am going to direct the witness's attention, commencing June 17. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Are you aware of the fact that at the first of June and in July of last year there were apparently no figures available as regards the number of men from over- seas in the tubercular sanatorium, but then the ]\Iilitia Department had your camp cases sent to this sanatorium? — ^A. Yes. Q. And I observe that, commencing 5th August, the number of camp cases was 39, as against 59 overseas ; on September 2nd, 50 camp cases and 55 overseas ; October 1st, 52 camp cases and 63 overseas; and in November of last year 65 camp cases, and 62 overseas; and in December only 17 from overseas and 36 from the camp; and in January 1st of this year 45 from the camps and 32 from overseas; February this year, 47 from the camp and 42 from the overseas; and the last day of February, last month, 69 from the camp and 77 from overseas; while at the present time, the 16th, there are 63 camp cases and 73 overseas cases; now, as medical officer for the district, Colonel Marlow, how do you explain, if proper medical supervision was had over the recruiting, so veiy large a number of camp tuberculosis cases, absorbing the space which was thought to be available for the overseas cases? — A. Well, in my previous evidence I gave the reasons why so many men were taken into the service. I think I explained my own opinion of that in my previous evidence. In respect of tuber- culosis cases particularly I would say that it is frequently very difficult to recognize milder degrees of tuberculosis and a closed state. A closed tuberculosis patient might easily present himself at the medical examination room of a recruiting office and be passed by the medical examiner, and when subjected to the strain of service these cases re-open again and are recognized. That has been so all over Canada. Q. The family history in the hands of the medical man would indicate that? — A. Not necessarily; the family history might not necessarily show- any pre-disposition to tuberculosis. (^ But tl^e man's own history? — A. That is probable, if it were carefully looked iuto. At the same time, if the physical examination does not show any active sl?iis of tubercult^gis, and if the man is otherwise physically fit he is accepted. Q. From August 5th, 1916, there were 39 tubercular camp cases, and it had risen to as high as 63 camp cases in 1917, the middle of this month, absorbing the space that was so pressingly required for overseas men? — A. Of course these cases are more apt to become active during the winter months than in the summer months. Q. Then finally it can be stated that the utilization of other institutions was not because you were willing to pay other institutions and not pay the Muskoka institution for similar services? — A. I am sorry to say that I did not catch the effect of your question. Q. The endeavour to provide other institutions to take care of tubercular cases was not because of an unwillingness to pay the Gravenhurst institution for similar services resulting in their refusal to take in patients? — A. I presume, sir, it was because of the failure of the Hospitals Commission and the directors of the National Sanatorium to come to an agreeable solution. Q. It was not because of the failure to pay them because you paid them from the start? — A. Certainly not. I presume not. [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] 750 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Sir James Lougheed: Q. Turn to your evidence at page 188, at the top of the page, you give it to 'be understood, or you leave the impression that you are familiar with certain cables that passed between Sir George Perley and the Government with respect to invalids in November 1916, when this problem was acute. Might I ask what your knowledge of these cables is? — A. If you refer to the paragraph a little further down you will see that I have stated there that " I have been in close touch with officials of the Hospitals Commission ever since the inception of this problem, and I am acquainted with the nature — not the exact nature, but the probable nature — of the communications that passed with respect to the rate at which these men should be sent home, as to whether the accommodation existed or not. I cannot say what the character of the information is, because I do not know definitely myself." I stated at the top of that page that I would like it to be understood that I have been in very close touch with the Military Hospitals Commission and also the Militia Department. Q. Why do you attribute the delay to the institutions involved or to the individuals involved if you do not know the contents of the cable? — A. As I have stated further up in my evidence, the Baptie report stated that there were some thousands of men ready to be sent home. It was understood that there was lack of accommodation in Canada. Q. I am not dealing with the Baptie report. That is something with which the overseas administration alone would be familiar. We are referring to the information which either the Militia Department or the Hospitals Commission had as to the situation in November. — A. May I say that in Col. Thompson's evidence somewhere he stated that they had been in constant communication with Sir George Perley as to the number of men that were to be sent home, and if definite information on this matter was required to clear it u,p, then I presume it would be a natural procedure to look for the information to the correspondence dealing with it. Q. That is to say you have made the statement without being familiar with the correspondence, and left the impression that men were being withheld from being sent over to Canada on account of unwillingness to take them on this side of the water. However, without discussing that phase of it, may I direct your attention to this. You say 'in November the question became acute. What question became acute? — A. The problem of providing increased accommodation for returned soldiers both in the convalescent class and in the active treatment class. Q. Do you mean from your answer to infer that the problem had become acute as between Sir George Perley and the Government of Canada? — A. I mean the problem Q. You mean the return of men to Canada?— A. The problem of returning men to Canada. Q. Would you be surprised to learn that the question never arose until about the middle of November, and that it only had relation to about 300 invalids represented as cases for active treatment, and 12 officers? Are you aware of that? — A. It was my impression that there had been at least 3,000 Q. Let me inform you of this, because you will probably be glad to correct any wrong impression which may have arisen from the representations which you have made. In November a cable came from Sir George Perley to the Prime Minister reading as follows : — " Referring to former cables, from Bruce to Militia requesting that accom- modation be provided for active treatment in Canada, we are now able to for- ward twelve officers and three hundred men requiring further treatment. May we send them? Others will be forwarded at intervals," A. What was the date of that? [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 751 Sir James Lougheed: That was on the 7th November. Perhaps the Committee will allow me to review what took place. This cable was received by the Hospitals Commission on the 13th November. Not earlier than that, and this letter was sent by me on that date to Sir George Perley, reading as follows: — " On Saturday I took up with the Prime Minister your cablegram to him of the 7th instant, in which you say you are able to forward 12 officers and 300 men requiring active treatment in Canada." And at this time may I say that this is the first occasion that we had active treatment cases thrown on our hands, as you are doubtless aware. The Witness : Yes. Q. This was the first time that any intimation was given to us that we had to handle active treatment cases? — A. Yes. Q. And by active treatment cases you understood they were cot or bed cases? — A. Yes. Sir James Lougheed: Continuing this letter. " As you doubtless know we have two classes of hospital in Canada, one known as the Military Hospitals administered by the Militia Department, and the other Convalescent Hospitals administered by the Military Hospitals Com- mission. I have taken up with the Director General of Medical Services of the Militia Department the accommodation of the Military Hospitals and he informs me that these are already filled with patients." Q. Your contention always was that the Army Medical Corps should handle the active treatment cases; that is to say, that they should be handled in the military hospitals? — A. I made that statement in my report. Q. And consequently we were naturally .expecting that you would be able to handle the active treatment cases. The letter continues: — " I have taken up with the Director-General of the Medical Services of the Militia Department the accommodation of the IMilitary Hospitals and he informs me that these are already filled with patients. The same may be said of the Convalescent Hospitals under the Military Hospitals Commission. We have had to take over a substantial number of cases from the Militia Depart- ment, cases which, under normal conditions, would have entered the ^lilitary Hospitals. The Director-General of Medical Services informs me this morning that he is having an extended inquiry made throughout Canada to ascertain if any accommodation can be secured in civilian hospitals. He and I are very doubtful if any space can be furnished in this direction in Canada. The IMilitia Department and the Military Hospitals Commission have already handed over to the civilian hospitals a number of cases that cannot be handled advan- tageously in the Government institutions. " If the cases referred to in your cablegram are intended to be the first of cases to be sent out to Canada requiring active treatment and as recommended by Colonel Bruce in his report and also in his cablegram to the Militia Depart- ment we should have ample notice of what the policy of the Overseas Adminis- tration of the Canadian Forces will be in this matter." Q. You would not consider it an unreasonable thing that the Hospitals Commis- sion should ask at this date what the policy of the department was with regard to the treatment of active cases? — A. Not at all, sir. Sir James Lougheed : The letter continues : — " Hospitals will have to be erected and ofiicered, provision will have to be made for hospital cars and trains. In this latter respect we are practically with- [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] 752 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETURNED SOLDIERU out any. I have already taken the subject up with the Minister of Railways and am hopeful that ere long we may have several liospital cars fitted up. From inquiry I am also informed that it will be a difficult task to properly officer large hospitals owing to the number of Canadian doctors and nurses now at the front." Q. You will recall that Col. Bruce's recommendation was that some five or six large hospitals of 1,000 beds each should be erected at the different centres of Canada ? —A. Yes. Q. And that recommendation was made about that time? — A. Yes. Q. But no effect was given to the report of Col. Bruce asi you doubtless know? —A. No. Q. It was proposed by Col. Bruce that practically in the mid-winter of 1916 we should proceed with the erection of hospitals in these centres, and it was natural that we should point out that all this equipment should be furnished before these cases were dealt with? I wrote to Sir George Perley expressing the opinion that on the approach of winter it was rather an unfortunate time to build hospitals. — A. Pardon me. Did he advise erecting hospitals or securing the necessary buildings? Q. I was under the impression that he proposed erecting buildings. I know that so far as Toronto was concerned the proposition was that we should buy his hospital, or the hospital in which he is very largely interested. — A. I dealt in my report with the possibility of the men being sent home at a more rapid rate. Q. My letter goes on to say (reads) : "The main thing to consider at the present ife what your overseas policy is to be on this question. If you find it is indispensable to do this please cable me as to what the requirements will actually be, and I shall take the subject up with all parties interested and personally with those associated with me, contribute in any way we can to meet the situation. "We for some time have been in treaty with the Ontario Government to take over their cottage asylum institution now under construction at Whitby, Ontario. This is being constructed in three units with accommodation of approximately six hundred to a unit. One unit will be completed about the end of the year. The second unit in about six months. We had intended thia chiefly for our convalescent work which is of course quite distinct from the active treatment cases referred to in your cable. We are exceptionally fortu- nate in securing the property. Up to the present time we have found that to secure accommodation for convalescent cases alone has been rather a diffi- cult problem, hence, in my judgment, if we have to enter upon active treat- ment cases we have to specially build." That letter was written by myself to Sir George Perley. You wijl see, Colonel Marlow, that at that date the volume of active treatment cases was limited to 300, and did not amount to any such nimiber as three or four thousand cases ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Now it turns out A. May I interrupt you just for a moment? Q. Certainly. I want you to thoroughly understand the subject? — A. This was shortly after I made my report, and if you refer to that you will note that I deal with the possibility of requiring hospitals for active treatment cases, and I advised that that was work which should be undertaken by the Army Medical Corps. I was in con- ference with the Deputy Minister and with the Director General of Medical Services following that, shortly afterwards in Ottawa. The matter had been brought up, I believe in Militia Council, and no definite action was taken pending further informa- tion as to the policy of the overseas authorities, which was something I mentioned in my report as well. At the same time the Director General of Medical Services secured estimates from the several branches concerned as to the expense of acquiring or erecting [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] RECEPTION, T RE ATM EST AND RE-EDUCATION 753 hospitals to meet the situation, but I understand that the matter was not followed up by the Militia Department because the Orders in Council -had given the Hospitals Commission authority over this whole work. Q. How did you understand that? — A. I was given to understand that by the D.G.M.S. — that the Hospitals Commission had proceeded with the problem of acquir- ing accommodation for the more active cases without funher conference with the Militia Department, and the D.G.M.S. did not go on any further with his arrangements. Q. I am dealing chiefly with the impr^sion which you have left on the public mind that there was a great volume of cases to be dealt with. Now, then, on the 25th November the following message was received from Sir George Perley: (Reads) — " Three hundred cases invalided to Canada. These three hundred will be sent forward next week, arriving on or about December 6. All are able to walk." So that between the first cablegram and the cablegram which I have just read, these have turned out to be not active treatment cases at all, but practically all convales- cent cases. Hon. Mr. Murphy: Had he received your letter on the date of that second cable? Sir James Lougheed: I doubt it, because he does not make any reference to it here. My letter was written on the 14th and this cablegram was sent on the 25th. He goes on to say : " (Eeads) — "Most require considerable surgical treatment. Would suggest their being placed in civil hospitals. Sufficient medical officers and nursing sisters will be sent forward with these cases to deliver them safely to their destination, but neither medical officers or nursing sisters can be spared to remain in Canada, as we urgently need these here. May we send an average of five hundred per month to Canada to be treated in hospitals there. All fit to travel without detri- ment to their health and all will do better in opinion of medical authorities by treatment in Canada than by remaining for prolonged periods in hospitals in England." Now, on the 29th November I cabled Sir George Perley as follows : (Reads.) "Please cable what has been done with regard to 300 hospital patients referred to in my cablegram of November 27th." His reply, dated December 5th, is as follows : (Reads.) " On receipt of your message regarding 300 ambulatory cases, instructions were given not to send them at present, but hope you can cable before long say- ing you can take them." Then, on December 5th I sent the following cable to Sir George Perley : (Reads.) " Can now provide for three hundred ambulatory cases." Now, I might ask you if you know whether these cases have ever yet been sent out? — A. No, sir, I do not. Sir James Lougheed: As a matter of fact they were not sent out until last February. Hon. Mr. Murphy: Is there any explanation given for the delay? Sir James Lougheed: It was due to the lack of ships, or some reason of that kind. Then, on the 1st of January, the Prime Minister wired Sir George Parley as follows: (Reads.) 28277—48 [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] 754 SPECIAL COMMIWEE—C.E.F.-IiETUR'SED SOLDIERS "For Louo-lieed, think three hundred per week will meet all possible requirements and probably will be more than can be got ready here. Don't think hospital ship or alteration to existing: vessels necessary as ship's ordin- ary hospital accommodation will take stretcher cases of which proportion is small. Will give you more definite information shortly. Eates of passage should be arranged in Canada as usual. Will cable you notification whenever any cases are sailing." On December 12th the President of the Hospitals Commission cabled that accom- modation for 1,000 hospital cases had been secured. On December 16th the president of the Military Hospitals Commission cabled that accommodation could be provided for 1,500 hospital cases and that it was desirable to have information as to the approxi- mate number to be accommodated. On December 22nd Sir George Perley cabled the Prime Minister that it was estimated that 4,000 cases requiring active treatment had better be sent to Canada. That probably was the cablegram yon, Colonel Marlow, referred to. That was the first intimation from Sir George Perley that there was that number of cases. I am not speaking of the rumours that were m circulation that Colonel Bruce had reported this, or Doctor Baptie or any one else, but I am speaking of the official correspondence which took place between the Overseas Min- ister and the Prime Minister, or between the Overseas Minister and mvself. Yon will observe. Colonel Marlow, that on December 22nd Sir George Perley cabled the Prime Minister that it was estimated that 4,000 cases requiring active treatment had better be sent to Canada. On December 23rd the Prime Minister cabled to Sir George Perley stating that the Hospitals Commission anticipated no difficulty in immediately providing for the 4,000 cases. 'Row, were you aware that these cablegrams had been exchanged between the Prime Minister and Sir George Perley, and between Sir George Perley and myself, before you made the statements you did? — A. ^STo, sir, I was not, but in one communication, which I think came from overseas, reference is made to medical officers and nursing sisters accompanying these men to their destination, but that siich medical officers and nursing sisters could not be retained in Canada. Sir James Lougheed: That was Sir George Perley's suggestion. The Witness: Yes, but might I ask what led up to that? Was the statement made that they should be retained in Canada. Q. Well, I will say this to you, that in the correspondence that took place it was pointed out that if such a large number of shipments were to be made it was desirable that every provision should be made in Canada for the care of these men. You would not regard that as unreasonable, would you? — A. No, certainly not. But may I ask, in reference to a cablegram which you referred to, the first one you read after your letter to Sir George Perley, what is the date in November? .Q. This is from the Prime Minister to Sir George Perley : — Ottawa, November IS, 1916. Dominion, London. Following from Lougheed: Your cable 16th, Military Hospitals Commis- sion are making arrangements for first three hundred men, but will require at least three weelo' time to provide necessary accommodation and staif. A. What is that? Q. That is an answer to Sir George Perley's cablegram as to the 300 men. — A. What date ? Q. November 18. It was received by the Military Hospitals Commission and taken up between the Military Hospitals Commission, represented by myself and the Prime Minister. (Peads). [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] RECEI'TIOS, TREATMENT A\U RE-EDiCATW.S 755 Medical and nursing assistance accompanying soldiers should remain in Cans.Ja on account scarcity professional services here. Important we have ample notice respecting all shipments and specific dates when fixed as con- siderable time requiied to secure suitable accommodation. Xow, would you regard it as unreasonable that the Hospitals Commission should ask in midwinter that three weeks should be given them to make preparation from that date? — A. No, sir. Q. For the reception of that number of men? — -A. I think, sir, I would consider it, perhaps, unreasonable that they should have asked that the nursing sisters and medical attendants accompanying those men should be retained in Canada, because of lack of professional service here. Q. Well, we suggested it, and we were being subjected at the time to many criticisms. Now, in view of the criticisms made by yourself and others, do you think it would be unreasonable that we should ask that every precaution should be taken? — A. Well, I suppose, from your point of view, it might have been reasonable. May I ask, sir Q. I shall be glad to let you ask later, but let me follow this up now. The first intimation was from Col. Bruce in a letter I have read of November 14. He wrote to Col. Reid. Col. Bruce had no ofiicial correspondence or communication with the Department of Militia or the Government so far as I know, it came from Col. Reid. (Reads). We hope that we will have somewhere in the neighbourhood of 3,000 of such cases to be returned to Canada for further treatment as soon as we are able to investigate the total number of patients now in England. Now, reduced to the final analysis, the number came down to 300? — A, Was that a letter? Q. Yes, from Col. Reid, of the l-Ath of November, a quotation from a letter from Col. Bruce to Col. Reid. Now, then, in view of this great urgency, which was, in your mind, impeded by the Hospitals Commission, let me just point out the ship- ments that have come out from time to time from that time to the present; and the committee will appreciate the difiiculty of the overseas administration in shipping these men out. Now, follow this. Col. ^larlow, and you will probably see an erroneous view while looking at it in that light, that it was entirely a mistake on your part in placing the construction upon it which you did. On the 1st December, the name of the steamship is not given, a boat left England with returned men classified as fol- lows: Gunshot wounds, GT; insane, 7; tuberculosis, 23; miscellaneous, 131; total, 228. That was the ship that should have sailed with the 300 to which Sir George Perley referred. The' next ship that came in left England on the 8th December, the SS. Northland, with returned men classified as follows: Gunshot wounds, 66; insane, 12; tuberculosis, 13; miscellaneous, 57; total, 148. The next ship that sailed from England was on the 15th December, the Metagama. It contained gunshot wound cases, 15 ; insane, 20 ; tuberculosis, 13 ; miscellaneous, 213 ; in all 297. The next ship left England on the 16th December, the SS. Andania, with returned men classified as follows: Gunshot wounds, 115; amputations, 74; insane, 1; miscel- laneous, 41; in all, 231. The next ship that sailed was on the 24th December, the SS. Scotian, and contained gunshot wounds, 47; amputations, 3; tuberculosis, 14; insaue, 7; miscellaneous, 127; in all, 198. On the 29th December the next ship was the Missanahie, with the following cases: Gunshot wounds, 37; tuberculosis, 10; insane, 4 ; miscellaneous, 17 ; in all, 68. Now that was the time of very great urgencj', the period when it was represented that active treatment cases were to be forwarded to Canada, and when the impression appeared to obtain in your mind that there were a great number of cases that were being delayed on account of the Hospitals 28277— 48i [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] 756 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Commission, and so on. Now, in view of the facts, which are indisputalJe, and which you have heard from the official records, are you prepared to abide by what you said on the top of page 188, that men were delayed or held over in England on account of lack of accommodation? — A. Well, sir Q. Be candid about it. We are discussing this in a friendly way and in the public interest. — A. It would certainly seem that there is a great deal of misunder- standing somewhere between the overseas authorities and the authorities at home as to how many men there were. Q. We are discussing the Hospital Commission and the Militia Department. I say, from the records which are produced here, would you be inclined to attach censure to the Military Hospitals Commission or to the Militia Department in view of these facts? — A. Well, Sir James, may I say that it has not been my attitude at any time to attach censure to the Hospitals Commission, but you understand what led up to this particular part of my evidence was the statement made by your medical superintendent attaching thorn to me, practically making me responsible for certain statements whfch were newspaper reports with which evidently I was credited. Q. Col. Marlow, did you ever deny publicly those newspaper reports which were attributed to interviews with you and a press correspondent? — A. I may say that so far as I am aware the only people who attributed these reports to me were persons at Ottawa. I made one statement to the newspapers of a general nature which no one could possibly take any objection to, and there were a great many other news- paper reports for which I was* not responsible. Q. With whom was the misunderstanding, the Military Hospitals Commission, the Militia Department, or the Press ? — A. It is very difficult to say, I am not sure. I can- not tell you where the misunderstanding was. I made only one newspaper statement, which I showed to the minister, and he took no objection to it, and I do not think any one could. The fact is I was credited with the whole of these newspaper reports. Q. Is it true that all these statements were based on a misunderstanding, that is the point? — A. All these newspaper reports were put down as coming from me, but there is no reason in the world why I should take any steps to deny them. Q. But your name was very freely mentioned in connection with them? — A. I admit that, but is not that explained by the fact that I have been very closely associated with this problem, and the reason, perhaps, why my name was so freely mentioned in connection with these reports was because of my own action in asking to be relieved of my duties, because of the intolerable situation which had arisen. Q. But did you not understand the position in which the Military Hospitals Com- mission and the Militia Department would be placed, in the public mind, in view of these statements. By reason of the fact that these reports were based to a certain extent upon the statements which you had made and that apparently if they were true a certain responsibility rested upon myself and others who were connected with me in carrying out important public duties, did you not think that you should deny those statements? — A. It was not my place to deny statements in the newspapers, if they chose to make certain statements. I understand that those statements were denied by Mr. Armstrong, the Director of the Military Hospitals Commission. I did not con- sider it my duty to enter into any newspaper controversy on the subject. Q. Very well, Colonel Marlow, dropping that subject for the moment? — A. Might I interrupt you. Sir James, for a moment. You refer to a cablegram there which was sent by the Prime Minister, for you, to Sir George Perley, I think the date was in November. Q. November 28. is that the cablegram you refer to ? — A. No, I think it was earlier than that, the 17th or the 18th, somewhere about that time. Q. Yes, November 18, with respect to giving accommodation to 300 men in three weeks? — A. Might I ask further to what that cable constituted a reply? Q. Yes, Sir George was quite agreeable that this staff should come out, but that they should return. We did not necessarily require them to remain here, except for [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 757 some little time, but it would require at least three weeks' time to provide the necessary accommodation, and they would return at the end of three weeks ? — A. Yes, but that is with respect only to that 300. Might I ask what information you had previous to that time in reference to their coming out? Q. Sir George Perley cabled that they had 300 men and 12 officers, they would like to send out? — A. Has the substance of that cable been introduced on the record? Q. Yes, it is here. — A. Might I ask what the date is? Q. In November, it got here on the 8th, and was received by the Hospitals Com- mjission on the 10th? — A. Might I ask that it be read again, sir. Q. Certainly. What do you want me to read? — A. What I wanted was, you have a cablegram sent for you by the Prime Minister, dated November 18, with respect to the shipment of 300 men. What I wanted was the correspondence that led up to that directly. Q. What led up to that was a cablegram of the 16th November^ from Sir George Perley to the Prime Minister reading as follows: — The Medical Service recommends that we forward two classes of patients to Canada for treatment. First those who are permanently unfit for further service, and second those who will want six months or more treatment and whose ultimate return to the service is doubtful. It is estimated that at present there are 3,000 patients in England who could be disposed of in this way, thus relieving the hospital congestion here. There are three hundred men now boarded and ready to proceed to Canada — all ambulatory cases who are per- manently unfit for further service but who could go on passenger ships. At least half, probably more of the three thousand cases would be ambulatory. The remainder would be sent in Hospital ship. Am of the opinion that course recom- mended is wise and hope necessary arrangements can be made in Canada. Could these not be absorbed into civil hospitals. May we send over three hundred immediately. (Sgd.) PERLEY. Now by the 5th December we were ready for 300, and by the end of December, we were ready for the 4,000. — A. Might it not be taken from the substance of that cablegram — or might that not be taken as a notification that there were 3,000 men to be sent home if they could be taken here? Q. Yes, but up to the present time they have not sent them ? — A. I thought it was stated it was some time later you had information about the 3,000 being sent. Q. No, up to this time they had not sent them. There are reasons I suppose of which we know nothing as to why these men were not sent out. You seem to think that in the first work of the Hospitals Commission that the Commission was committed to using small homes. You probably overlooked the fact that what led up to the appointment of the Hospitals Commission was that the Militia Department had handed this work over to the St. John's Ambulance Association? — A. No, I do not think so. Q. Or the Voluntary Aid ? — A. No sir, there was another Order in Council pre- ceding that, by which a Military Committee was appointed, that was the first organi- zation. Q. That was some time later. You are probably aware that between them, the Committee of the Militia Council and the St. John's Ambulance, they had investigated between 60 and 70 houses that had been tendered for particular purposes. You are aware of that fact? — A. I am aware that a very considerable number of the houses were inspected. Q. Are you aware that the Engineer of the Militia Department had inspected many of these houses, and had recommended that they be taken? — A. I am aware that previous to the appointment of this Commission there were five inspected by the [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] 758 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.V.^RETUKN ED SOLDIERS Engineer Officer, in Military District No. 2, and that following that quite a number of others were inspected. Q. Are you aware that the Militia Department, represented by the St. John's i\mbulance and by the Engineers, had recommended that the St. Catherine's Home should be taken, and that they had prepared plans, and recommended that various changes be made in it? — A. No, sir, I am not aware of that. Q. I am simply giving you that information. — A. With respect to the St. John's Ambulance Association, they have nothing to do with the Militia Department, but with respect to the St. Catherine's Home, the opening was carried out against the wishes of the General Officer Commanding the District. Q. But the General Officer Commanding had nothing to do with it ; it was for the Hospitals Commission to pass upon it; that seems to be the whole difficulty between the military and the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. But may I say that the General Officer Commanding the district advised strongly against it being done? He had received commxmications both from the Master General of the Ordinance and also from the Secretary of the Hospitals Commission in respect to opening it, and in reply to both of those communications by telegram and letter he advised very strongly against opening it. Q. But his advice was not asked by the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. He was asked to open it Q. But I simply wanted to advise you as to the origination of those small houses being used. That is how it originated. As you doubtless know, we have to-day a list of 75 homes which it was proposed to take over? — A. Yes, sir, but in accordance with the early policy of the Hospitals Commission, certainly as recommended by the Sec- retary of the Commission, it was their policy to continue to use those small homes. Hon. Mr. Murphy: I suppose Mr. Chairman, that the cables and telegrams that were re"ad here to-day and referred to in the evidence of Colonel IMarlow will be filed. The Chairman: Yes. T!y Mr. Middlebro : Q. Colonel Marlow, let us see whether we cannot get down to what is admitted ill this controversy, because it seems to me it has become very largely a question of the Hospitals Commission versus Army j\[edical Corps. I suppose you will admit that from the beginning of the war till June, 1915, when the Hospitals Commission was created, that things were carried on satisfactorily under the Army Medical Corps, under your jurisdiction? — A. Yes; at that time we had very few returned soldiers to deal with, up to June, 1915. Q. Then, in June, 1915, the Military Hospitals Commission was created? — A. Yes. Q. And as you have already stated, the reason for its creation, in your opinion, was as follows — and I suppose you will say that is true to-day — at page 227 of your evidence : — Q. Can you suggest any reason why the ^Military Hospitals Commission was created if the work could be better carried on by the Army ]\Iedical Corps ? Somebody must have thought the commission necessary? — A. Well, I could suggest a reason. I do not know how far it is true, but the one that appeals to me more than anything else is that it was a matter of unloading at the time. Q. Unloading what? — A. Unloading work from the Militia Department .which it should ordinarily have done, but because at that time it was par- ticularly busy with many other matters that were i^ressing. the idea of a com- mission was conceived, and the matter was unloaded. Q. You are of the opinion that, owing to the amount of work in the Militia Department, they thought it was necessary to give the work to the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. To create something else to handle this big problem. [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 759 That was the reason the Military Hospitals Commission was created, according to your own evidence? — A. That is not my opinion, sir; I said they thought. Q. You were asked: "You are of the opinion that, owing to the amount of work in the Militia Department, they thought it was necessary to give the work to the Military Hospitals Commission." — A. I am of the opinion that they thoixght. Q. No; this is what you said, and swore here, whether it is true or not: "Well, I could suggest a reason. I do not know ho-^ far it is true, but the one that appeals to me more than anything else is that it was a matter of unloading at the time." You, at any rate, thought that the reason they created the ^Military Hospitals Com- mission was that they wanted to unload some of the work of the Army Medical Corps, because as you say you were particularly busy with other matters which were pressing at the time; that is true or it is not true; it is your own evidence; is it true? — A. It is still my Q. We have been examining and cross-examining here to-day till the public mind is so befuddled that we do not know where we are? — A. You put your questions in such a way that it is difficult to answer them. Q. Until June, 191.5, when the Military Hospitals Commission was inaugurated, you say that everything was going satisfactorily; you also say here that the reason the Military Hospitals Commission was created was because the Army ^Medical Corps was overloaded with work? Is that correct? Are those answers true? — A. Not as you put it in your question, that they were unloading the ordinaiy work which it should have done because it was particularly busy on the matters that were pressing, and the idea of a commission was conceived; I say that is my opinion as to the reason why the commission was created. I do not admit in that evidence or now that the Army Medical Corps were overworked. Q. But it is your opinion that the reason they unloaded it was because the Gov- ernment thovight they were overloaded? — A. That is a matter that emanated from Ottawa. Q. The reason they appointed the commission w^as because they thought it was overloaded with work? Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : The Militia Department, not the Army Medical Corps. Mr. MiDDLEBRO: I mean the Militia Department. The Army Medical Corps is a part of the Militia Department. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. And up to that time there was no friction — there was nobody to have any fric- tion with? — A. Quite true. Q. So that with the inauguration of this Commission the friction started, and you were of the opinion that the work could have been carried on better,- or at least as well, by the Army !^[edical Corps? — A. I was of the opinion that the whole of tlie work in respect to the problem should have been carried on by the ^lilitia Depart- ment. I have never changed my mind from that day to this. Q. Answer my question — and you were of the opinion that the work shouhl have been carried on by the Army Medical Corps under the ^Militia Department? — A. The medical work, but not the other phase of the work. There are other military aspects of the subject as well as the medical. Q. And then it was because of that opinion of yours, and because, as you say in your evidence, that the Military Hospitals Commission started to take charge of this work without consulting you, that friction arose? — A. Allow me; I say here Q. Is that true? — A. W^ait; you mention friction; I say there was no friction until the creation of the Military Hospitals Commission Command — until they started to assume the control of the men; until they went into the whole military business; that is where the trouble began. [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] 760 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. The Military Hospitals Commission Command is a part of the organization of the Military Hospitals Coniinission?— A. It is a military organization responsible to the Militia Department; it cannot have responsibility tx) the civilian organization known as the Military Hospitals Commission. Q. We will take it that because there was the Military Hospitals Commission and the Military Hospitals Commission Command that you were dissatisfied with that?— A. I have not at any time expressed dissatisfaction with the Military Hospitals Com- mission. I say there was no friction until the creation of the Military Hospitals Com- mission Command. Q. You say in your evidence^ at page 191 : — " As I have already said in my evidence, there appeared to be a very distinct attempt on the part of the Hospitals Commission to entirely divorce themselves from the Militia Department, and that was one of the things that, to my mind, gave rise to a very considerable amount of trouble." Q. That is right, I suppose? — A. I say, sir, that the order creating the Military Hospitals Commission gave them authority to draw upon the medical service, upon all branches of the Militia Department; they had that authority. Q. I don't want to go over all this again; you were dissatisfied with the Military Hospitals Commission because of those things that you are stating; is that true? — A. Because of those things that I am going to state. Q. I know what they are — the divided authority? — A. No, it is not that; it is a matter — may I just go on for a moment. Q. May I put it this way : You were dissatisfied after tliat time because a different order of things obtained in the Militia Department than what had jpreviously obtained? — A. After the creation of the command, very different; but that does not explain the real cause of our dissatisfaction, and our dissatisfaction has a very impor- tant bearing upon this whole problem. Q. Of course you know that what we are investigating here is the welfare of returned soldiers? — A. Yes. Q. Turn to your evidence on page 199, the question was asked by Mr. Sutherland (reads) : " Have you had any complaint from the returned soldiers as to the lack of proper attention on the part of the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. No, I do not think so ; I think that ordinarily the men are getting good attention and good service." A. Yes, sir. Q. If that is the case what have we to complain of? The whole object of the Military Hospitals Commission was to give good service and attention to the men. You say they are getting good service and attention. I suppose you have read all the evidence that has been given here? — A. Not all of it. Q. With the exception of evidence given by men of the Canadian Army Medical Corps^ the evidence has been unanimous that the Military Hospitals Commission has given splendid service. Is that not so ? You have read the evidence ? — A. Yes. Q Can you name me a single witness that has come before this Committee — ? — A. I have not read all the evidence by any means. Q. Do you know of a single witness — I do not — who has given evidence before the Committee who has said that the Military Hospitals Commission has not performed this service splendidly? — A. In that connection may I direct your attention Q. What do you think now about the service that has been performed by the Military Hospitals Commission? We want to know what is best to do for the soldiers, but we want to get it honestly and frankly? — A. If you would give me a chance to put it in my own way I oould jolly soon tell you. I I'.olonel F. W. Marlow.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUUATION 761 Q. You have been on the stand two days and a half and that ought to be enough? —A. I think from the evidence already given I have stated that the Military Hospitals Commission can perform a very useful function. Q. Listen to this : " Have you had any complaint from the returned soldiers as to the lack of proper attention on the part of the Military Hospitals Commission " ? And the answer, " No, I do not think so. I think that ordinarily the men are getting good attention and service"?— A. May I direct your attention to my answer to the next question ? " I suppose so, but you must remember that the medical service is being carried on by the Army Medical Corps. There has never been a period when the Military Hospitals Commission has assumed responsibility for the medical service." Q. That is not so, because the Military Hospitals Commission has assumed respon- sibility for medical services not in this district, but all over Canada? — A. I do not know. Q. Is this not the only district where it has not been handed over? — A. I cannot tell you that. I am not prepared to say definitely. Colonel Thompson will tell you. Q. You were asked, " It is the divided authority you object to " and you answer " Of course " ? — A. Yes. Q. Has the whole trouble not arisen because of either divided authority or lack of knowledge of who had the authority with respect to the respective powers of the Military Hospitals Commission and the Army Medical Corps? — A. A great deal of the trouble has come from divided authority. Q. Nothwithstanding that, the returned soldier has received care and attention according to your own evidence. Take page 185 of your evidence, and this refers to the matter brought out by Sir James Lougheed this afternoon. We were speaking of the ability of the Military Hospitals Commission to care for the returned soldier, sick and wounded, and at the bottom of page 185 I find the following question, " Dr. Thompson says that they are preparing to have accommodation in Canada to the extent of 10,000 beds. If that be so, would that, in your opinion be sufficient"? And the answer "I presume it would be, certainly? — A. Yes. Q. Then the examination proceeds : — " Q. Then do you know that it has been the policy of the British Govern- ment to retain these men there, the active treatment cases until recently, they have been sending more active treatment cases to Canada that has been the policy of the British Government has it not? — A. I presume so. " Q. So that as far as the Military Hospitals Commission and the Army ' Medical Corps of Canada are concerned, they did not have the patients here to treat? — A. No, they did not, but they might have treated them if there had been accommodation to which the patients might have been sent." Then the patients who might have been sent, that you were then referring to, were the patients whom you thought were accumulating in- England, but who have been shown by Sir James Lougheed to have been non-existent? — A. I do not think they have been shown to be non-existent. It has been shown they have not been sent. The cable shows they were there. Q. Is it true according to this evidence that the only patients who have not been treated by the Military Hospitals Commission who should have been treated, are the men who are still in England? That is the effect of your answer is it not; that is what you say. You can change it if you like?— A. Well I have admitted and have said myself that all patients who have come to Canada have been treated Q. With regard to the consumptive patients sent up to the free hospitals in Muskoka. I am told by men who came back here who were sent up by the Military Hospitals Commission that the majority of them came back from that institution because they would not submit to being made orderlies for the civil patients. Did you hear that complaint ?— A. I saw certain newspaper reports about that but I do [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] 762 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETURy ED SOLDIERS not believe them to be true. At that particular time I made a special visit to the ^luskoka hospital and inquired into that matter and I was assured by Dr. Kendall that these men were only expected to wait upon soldiers and not upon civil patients. Q. You heard complaints? — A. Only what I saw in the newspapers. Q. Do you know that because of their infractions of the rules of that hospital no more patients were allowed to go there? — A. It was not because of their infractions of the rules that they were not allowed to go there. It was because of that reason they were discharged from the institution. Q. And for that reason they would not accept any more? — A. No, sir. Q. You do not know that? — A. No. Q. Do you know that they would have accepted more patients?— A. I have reason to believe they would, from the communications I received from Dr. Kendall and Mr. Gage. By the Chairman: Q. Are there any there now? — A. Yes. By Mr. Middlebro: Q. Were you consulted as to the opening of this Minuewaska institution? — A. Xo, I was not. Q. You have no responsibility as to that ?-^A. No. The reason I stated that more patients were not sent to the institutions of the National Sanitarium Associa- tion was that the institution refused to receive more patients pending a more definite agreement with the Hospitals Commission. Q. And you have heard Sir James Lougheed's explanation of that? — A. That is the explanation I had. I have the statement in the two letters. Q. We will come to something you undoubtedly have the whole control of. General Logic gave evidence yesterday of 91,863 'men enlisted for Military District No. 2. There have been 16,637 men struck off as unfit, or perhaps there may be some other reason? — A. A good many other reasons. Q. Can you tell me what proportion of that 16,000 have been struck off for other than medical unfitness? — A. No, I cannot tell you that. But you asked for a com- pilation which General Logie said he would give if you wanted it. I cannot give you the number at the present time. Q. Do you not know as a medical ofiicer of this district how many men have been struck off for being medically imfit in round numbers? I do not expect it within four or five hundred. — A. I do not know the percentage. Q. Can you tell me within a thousand of how many men have been struck off? — A. No, because we have been dealing with a large number of men. I could make a mistake of a thousand. Q. I will give you leave to make a mistake of a thousand? — A. I will not take any such chances as that because the definite accurate information can be obtained. I can give you accurate information if you wait for it, and I will not give you inaccu- rate information. Q. Did you give information before on this inquiry as to the number of men struck off in Military District No. 2 ? — A. In what way ? Q. For military unfitness ? — A. Did I give auy information as to the number ? Q. Yes?- -A. No, I did not. Q. You did not? — A. No, not in any way. Q. If I were to tell you there were over 10,000 men struck off as being medically unfit, what would you say to that? — A. I would not be prepared to question that statement without looking up the records. Q. What would you say as to a medical examination, conducted under your jurisdiction, that would show 10,000 soldiers unfit out of a total enrolment of 92,000? — A. I would say that probably is not a greater proportion than is shown in any [Colo.nel F. W. Marlow.] RECEPTION, TREATMEXT AND RE-EDUCATION 763 other district in Canada, and I have explained the reasons very thoroughly in my previous evidence as to why these men were taken on. Q. Then you admit there were more men medically imfit enlisted in No. 2 Dis- trict proportionally than in any other district in Canada, do you? — A. I certainly do not. Q. Then do you say there are less men admitted medically unfit in No. 2 Dis- trict proportionally than in any other district in Canada? — A. I do not say anythinc; of the sort, because I have not the figures available to make a comparison of the dis- tricts. I simply say that I do not believe the proportion is greater in this district than in other districts. Q. You gave some evidence the other day about one battalion, the 118th ]\[iddle- sex, I believe. ]\rr. Ross: No, it was not Middlesex. Mr. MiDDLEBRO: My honourable friend resents the imputation. It was Water- loo, then. The Witness : Kitchener, you mean ? By Mr. Middlehro: Q. And if my recollection is correct there were over 50 per cent of the men rejected as medically unfit? — A. In the final examination there were about 50 per cent of the men held back ? Q. As medically unfit? — A. That is, medically unfit for infantry. Q. Well, as medically unfit for infantry. When you examine men for an infantry battalion you are examining men for infantry? — A. Yes, certainly. Q. And this Waterloo Battalion was an infantry battalion? — A. Certainly. Q. So that there were 50 per cent of the men under you in your battalion medi- cally unfit ?--A. No, not under my jurisdiction, sir. Q. A^ot under your jurisdiction? — A. No, sir, the 1st District is not mine. Q. Well, 1 take that back, with an apology as well. Now, Colonel Marlow, I am told — 1 do not know this for a fact, but I will assume that it is true — that there are over 10,000 men in your district out of the 92,000 enlisted who have since been declared medically unfit. Do you say that is an unduly large proportion of men out of the 92,000 who have been passed through as being fit? — A. I say that it is greater than it ought to be. Q. Yes? — A. But the reasons, I think, were fully explained; at least, my own version of the reasons, was fully set forth in my previous evidence. Q. I understand. Colonel ^larlow, 1 am not going to hold you responsible for a lot of men under you, but you must remember that the Military Hospitals Commis- sion are in the same position. No man at the head of a Military District can super- intend all the minute acts that are being done by subordinates, but all the same 1 believe you must accept responsibility for the medical examination of those men, although you may not be actually personally to blame. That is true, is it not? — A. That is true. But if certain conditions are imposed by headquarters with respect to examination all we can do is to carry out our instructions. Q. Do you not think it is a very important thing, the medical examination of the men going overseas? — A. I do. I have expressed myself very freely in respect to that problem at different times. Q. Who are the members of your Board here, who examine the men coming from the rural districts before they are enlisted? — A. At the present time? Q. Yes. — A. Well, the names of the Boards with the exception of those at the Sudbury Depot are in the documents which General Logic filed yesterday, giving his orders for the conduct of these mobilization centres. Q. How many Boards have you in the city of Toronto for the examination of recruits as they come in from the diflFerent districts? — A. The recruits are examined [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] 764 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS at the Toronto mobilization centre at the Armouries, and we have six or seven Medical Officers working there on part time duty. Q. Could you give us their names? — A. Major Currie, Captain McLaurin, Cap- tain Sheard and Captain Eby. Those are the four who are on most regular duty. Q. What experience have these men had, in years, I mean? — A. Major Currie, 1 presume, has had probably 17 or 18 years' of practice. Q. Now, the next one? — A. I might say that he has also been carrying on as Presi- dent of the Standing Final Medical Board for Convalescent Soldiers as well. Q. Who is the next captain? — A. Captain McLaurin. Q. What experience has he had? — A. I should say roughly about 12 or 13 years. Q. Now, the next one. Captain Eby? — A. Captain Eby — about three years, I should say. Q. Captain Sheard? — A. Captain Sheard, I would say about five or six years' practice. Q. Now, the next one? — A. Those are the regular medical officers. I might say that we have to fill in with other militia officers. Q-. That is exactly the course which my experience of these examinations has convinced me has been followed. In my opinion one of the most important positions in the whole of the army is that of the medical man who certifies to the fitness of a recruit on entering the service, because in the fijrst place, when the recruit goes in he has the certificate of the Government that he is a sound and well man? — A. Quite right. Q. Then if he comes back from active service unsound he is entitled to a pension if his health is certified to be impaired? — A. I think you are quite right, sir. Q. Here you have a medical man of only three years' experience, and another of only four or five years' experience certifying to the physical condition of recruits. Now, I will admit to you that it is one of the hardest tasks that you can set a medical man, to ascertain whether a man is fit or unfit. When the recruit wishes to enter the service he is going to conceal any evidence of impairment of health which would debar him from being accepted. On the other hand, if he wishes to go out he will be prone to exaggerate any symptoms of a malady from which he may be suffering. That is so, is it not? — A. That is so. Q. In other words, it requires a much more experienced man to tell whether a man is fit or not, regardless of what he says his symptoms are, than it does in private practice, where the patient has no object in concealing his real physical condition or his symptoms. Under the circumstances, do you think it is fair to this country to have men of only three or five years' experience admitting recruits into the Army? — ■ A. I think, sir, that your point is very well taken, but I would like to ask you, or any member of the Committee, where we can get experienced medical officers or practition- ers of say from 10 to 20 years' ex-perience to go to a mobilization centre to examine recruits, which I admit is a very trying work when you have to go into a room with 30 or 40 stripped recruits, it is very trying work — where can you get satisfactory medical officers to come out and do that work for the sum of $3 a day, or $1 an hour. Q. I quite agree with you. A case was brought to my notice of a medical man up in a northern town, who is getting $2 a day for this work? — A. Those are the conditions imposed upon the medical service. Q. I blame the Government, I am not making any bones about it, for not paying a sufficient fee to medical men to insure a proper inspection, because they would save millions of dollars by a proper medical inspection in the first instance? — A. Sir, as you are aware, I dealt with that point extensively in my report, and I showed where medical officers were receiving pay of the same proportion as the pay of practically all other branches of the service. Their professional training, which is carried on at their jwn expense, takes at least five years. Yet we have medical officers in the servi"C today doing professional work at the rate of two or three dollars a day. [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] RECEPTION', TREATMENT AXD RE-EDLCATION 765 Q. That difficulty does not arise under the Military Hospitals Commission. — A. This problem, as I say in my report, has not been treated as a medical problem but has been treated as a lay problem. We are drawing the pay of our rank, whereas experts, with no previous experience, are employed by the Hospitals Commission at rates of pay- fixed by that body. By the Chairman: Q. And the returned soldier benefits ? — A. No, not in respect to the whole problem. Not only the medical side of it, but the whole side of it, all aspects of the problem have to be considered. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. Up to the time that you made your report in October, 1916, did you ever reeomraend to the Government higher pay for medical men? — A. I never had an opportunity of recommending it before, and I recommended it at that time as strongly as I could. I frequently spoke of it, because the men have always been dissatisfied. Q. Do you know of any reports going in to the Government representing that the Army Medical officers were not being sufficiently paid for their services? — A This is the first I know of. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. If the rates of pay had been attractive enough to have secured properly qualified men, would not a lot of money have been saved to Canada ? — A. There would have been millions of money saved if the medical service had been put on a proper basis. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. I suppose there are many medical practitioners who do not look upon this from the standpoint of money, but who are giving their services from patriotic motives? — A. There is no doubt about that. In Toronto I cannot get men of more experience to come down at the present rate of pay. They cannot live on the rates of pay. Q. I say this, because I know of a man who came down from my own riding, where the local physican knew he was afflicted with a disease that would absolutely debar him from military service, but the doctors here passed him and he was admitted. Another man who the physician said was qualified was debarred? — A. That is a difference of opinion. Q. He said that meipbers of the board down here, not questioning their ability, did not have sufficient experience to certify whether a man was medically fit or not. That might be so with those young men that you have had to employ ? — A. That might be so with some of them, although we have some senior men on our staff. These senior men have been in the Army Medical Corps Service before the war. The men who have oome in more recently, we cannot get them to come down at the rates of pay. Q. I understand that instead of having a permanent board of men, who have had experience in civil life as well as military, and instead of retaining these men per manently so that they will get more experience, they tell me that the personnel of the boards changes every day or two or every week. Is that the case? — A. Not at the present time, since the mobilization centres have been organized. Q. Heretofore, was that the case? — A. Very frequently, there were changes in the board. Q. You called in whoever might be available when a squad of men came in to be examined? — A. We could not determine how many were coming in. Q. You sent out a hurried call when a squad came in. You not only had the experienced men, but you had inexperienced men also for this work? — A. Certainly, there is no doubt about that. I mean, of course, in respect to that, look at the con- dition that obtained over the whole country in the winter of 1915-16, when the men [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] 766 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—KETURXED SOLDIERS were accepted on one examination in every little village throughout the country. That is what gave rise to the whole trouble, one examination by civilian practitioners throughout the whole country. By Hon. Mr. McGurdy: Q. These questions and answers would indicate that each soldier was passed on the certificate of only one medical officer? — -A. Not at the present time. Q. What are the provisions to safeguard the public interest in that respect at the present time? — A. Those are all set forth in the document I have referred to, filed by General Logie yesterday. Q. With your facility of expression, perhaps you could state the provisions in popular form? — A. Merely this: there is a certain area from which recruits are sent after preliminary examination. There are mobilization centres at Toronto, Hamilton, and Sudbury. The recruits are first subject to medical examination locally and then they are sent up before attestation to the mobilization centre for re-examination, where they are examined by three medical officers. Q. That is, four medical officers up to that point? — A. Yes, though one of the four may be a civilian practitioner. They are examined by these three medical officers, and they are listed, their papers are signed as being fit or unfit, and they are invariably signed by the president of the medical board. At the mobilization centre, if the man is accepted as fit, he is then attested. You will see in that document that General Logie has ordered that all men be attested at mobilization centres. That is, no man can be attested anywhere except at mobilization centres, there is no chance of a man going back with a paper marked unfit being accepted locally. After attestation, he returns to his unit headquarters. Then the medical officer assigned to that unit is expected to re-examine him again, and if he considers that he is not fit, or that the other men have missed something, then he may apply for a medical board to sit on this man's case, and if he is found unfit by the medical board his discharge will be immediately recommended. Q. Do we understand from the procedure followed now that a recruit offering for enlistment has to pass five medical officers before he can be attested? — A. Not five. He is attested here at the mobilization centres. If he comes from an outlying district he is examined by the medical officer, or the civil practitioner, in his locality. But if he comes from Toronto, for instance, he probably goes direct to the mobiliza- tion centre where he is examined by the medical board. Q. He is examined by three, four or five medical officers as the case may be? — A. Yes. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. Are there many men returned from England after medical examination, is the number decreasing? — A. Well, I think it is, my impression is that the number is decreasing but I could not state so accurately. I may say that of the men going over recently, but it is quite possible that there are a greater number of these men who went over some months ago being returned at the present time. Q. Is the examination more rigid in England than it is here? — A. Well, it would appear so in respect to certain conditions, particularly in respect to flat feet. Q. Do not the men develop troubles between the time they leave here and the time they reach England and during their training there? — A. There. is a certain wast- age occurring all the time. The longer the men are kept in training the greater will be the natural wastage. Q. Don't you think a great deal of care should be exercised now that recruits are so scarce, that the examination might become a little lax? — A. Well, no, I do not think the examination should become lax. What I think should be arranged would be that a man presenting himself for enlistment in the infantry, should be enlisted into the service provided he can pass any standard' of examination, and having passed [Colonel F. W. Marlow.l RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 767 the examination that he should be classified according to his standard. That is, a man conies up for the infantry — he may not be fit for that branch, but may be recommended for the Army Medical or the Army Service Corps. In order to retain thatt man arrangements should be made whereby he can be attested and classified afterwards. If a nian comes up for the infantry, and is not fit for that, we cannot insist that that man join some other unit. We lose him unless he is willing to accept the lower standard service. Q. You are familiar with the method of examination in England? — A. No, sir, I am not very familiar with the methods over there. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. Colonel Marlow, you have referred to being handicapped by certain conditions imposed by Headquarters with regard to the treatment of the medical sen-ice here. I notice in your report of October 18, you refer to the administration of the service. I might just as well read it: (Reads.) The present acting D.G.M.S., Colonel Potter, has been indefatigable in the performance of his duties. Assuming his position at a time when the work at Headquarters ofiice began to pile up at a tremonjious rate, and with Httle assist- ance and great difficulty in securing such with any degree of permanency, his responsibilities have been great and his labour arduous. To keep pace with the requirements of the office work was- a difficult task, but by strenuous efforts dur- ing long hours he has managed to do so. In doing this, however, he has been so occupied by the work of the office that until very recently he was unable to secure an opportunity of going out to any of the districts on inspectional duty. Thus it transpired that during the first two years of the war no systematic medical inspection was conducted? — A. Yes, sir. ^ Q. And you attribute the difficulties during this first year to lack of efficiency on the part of Headquarters? — A. I would not, as an officer of the Army Medical Corps, like to put it that way. Q. Still you have put it here in your report. — A. That the work of the Acting Director General of Medical Services, as far as his office work was concerned, was very well carried on, but there was a very great deal of work throughout the various districts that was left entirely in the hands of the administrative officers of the dis- trict, many of whom were medical officers with practically no previous experience, and, during that time, they had no encouragement or help from Ottawa. Q. You concluded this paragraph by saying " Thus it transpired that during the first two years of the war no systematic medical inspection was conducted? — A. Yes, there was no systematic medical inspection for two years. Q. Then you continued that the Military Hospitals Commission was appointed with a view to meeting the lack of efficiency of the !Medical Corps and that " their organization is progressing, and in a very short time they expect to be able to take over the whole of the medical work and relieve the Army ]\redical Corps, and so this semi-military organization will relieve the Army Medical Corps of the greatest military problem with which it has ever been confronted." Then you wind up by saying : — " It seems obvious, then, that the medical service was regarded as being incapable of dealing with this problem, which should have been its own. As it now is much duplication of ' machinery ' will be necessary and much expense will be added to the Government to maintain a separate and distinct organiza- tion to carry on work, which should ordinarily have been performed by the Militia DopartnuMit had the ^Medical Service demonstrated its capability ol preparing the soldiers' disposition for the administrative authorities to take the necessary action," [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] 768 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS There you practically admit the inefficiency of the Medical Corps to look after the medical inspection of the men and vocational training and practically justified the appointment of the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. Might I say I do not admit the inefficiency of the Army Medical Corps. I say it seems obvious that it was con- sidered that the Medical Service was not capable of looking after the problem which should have been its own. At the same time, I admit that, as my report clearly shows, there was very considerable incompleteness of organization in the Army Medical Corps, and for reasons which my report contained, Q. And your report shows that during the first two years of the war no sys- .tematic medical inspection was conducted? — A. That is a fact. The Chairman: Is there any other question to be asked Col, Marlow? Witness: Before I go there are just one or two matters which I would like to call to your attention for a moment. One was in respect to certain figures which were introduced this morning by a gentleman of the committee, regarding the in- patients and the out-patients and the accommodation provided for them. I am inclined to think, at the time, I could not very well understand those figures, that they do not apply to this military district. I would just like to ask whether those figures which were read apply to this military district No. 2. Mr. Bennett : They apply to the whole of Canada, and partly to this district, each district is given separately. The figures in the statement which I quoted apply as well to the whole of Canada as to the individual districts. Witness : But it was introduced into the evidence in a way that it could be taken as applicable to this military district. Mr, Bennett : I gave both, that is my impression. The Witness: I certainly did not take it that way, but in looking it up, the figures as applicable to this district show a very different state of affairs as to accom- modation and the number of in-patients and out-patients, so that I take eexception to those figures that were quoted as being applicable to this military district. Mr. Bennett : Here is the sheet from which I quoted and which I handed to the reporters for the purpose of the record. Witness : I would also like to state that the accommodation set forth in this report which does apply to this district includes a number of beds which had not received the approval of the medical officers, and which the medical officers do not consider fit places for the use of convalescent soldiers. Also with respect to the Whitby Institution the number of beds put down there is considerably more than are at the present time available. With respect to the College street institution, at least 35 beds are in what was formerly used as a recreation and entertainment hall and which is not very suit- able for beds. So that I think a reference to the actual figures will more clearly repre- sent the true state of affairs than the figures brought out this morning. There were certain documents of mine referred to this morning from which only small extracts have been taken. I do not consider that to be a fair representation of my ideas on the subject in respect to the treatment and disposition of these men, and I would like, sir, with your permission to introduce into, the evidence a full copy of the report made by me on November 24, 1915, after the work at the Discharge Depot at Quebec. Q. Who is that between? — A. This was an official report sent by me to the Gen- eral Officer Commanding, of the work done at Quebec by the orders of the Adjutant General. That is the document that has been referred to to-day in discussing the out-patient system, and I think it is only fair that the whole document should be put into the evidence. By the Chairman: Q. It is all pertinent ?— A. Well, I might say that the first part of it might be eliminated, the part which deals with the medical report on the discharge depot; but the remarks and the memorandum of suggestions [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] RECEPTIONS', THEATMEM AND RE-EDUCATION 769 Q. This is dated November 14, 1915 ?— A. No, it should be 24th November. There is a good deal of it along the whole line of reception of men, documents, and the dealing with the men, and so on; I think that practically the last three pages deal Avith documents, transportation, etc. Q. But that was practically two years ago? — A. It was in November, 1915, at the beginning of the system which has been referred to to-day. Q. Practically fifteen months ago, and pi*actically most of what has been referred to here has been altered? — A. No, sir, it has not. Q. Well, the criticisms you have here do not apply with equal force? — A. They arc not criticisms. They are a discussion of the whole subject; but as an extract has been taken from that documcut I think it is only fair that the body of the document should be introduced into the evidence. It is an official report by me through the General Officer Commanding, and its mention to-day was the first intimation I had that it had been taken notice of at Ottawa at all; but as it has been mentioned, and an extract has been taken from it — only a brief extract — I think it only fair that the body of the document should be introduced into the evidence. Q. There is a lot here that does not appear to have been discussed by us at all?-^ A. I think there is very little there that bus not been discussed by the Committee at some stage or other. On motion of Mr. Pardee, the document was admitted and filed as Exhibit '*' 4." ■The Witness: May I make reference to another document, which has been brought forward Tiere as evidence — the paper read before the Ontario Medical Asso- ciation? I also claim that as a part of that document has been used for particular purposes here to-day, that that document itself should go into the evidence. I claim that only a small clause was taken from this, and every one knows that a small clause taken out of a document may be taken to mean nothing. By the Chairman: Q. Has that document ever been printed? — A. That document has been printed in one of the Canadian Medical Journals. Mr. Bennett: I took the extract from it. By the Chairman: Q. Would it not be sufficient to state the fact that your whole document is to be found printed in the Ontario Medical Journal of such a date? — A. Only this, that the gentlemen of the Committee will not take the trouble to refer to it; and that extract has been taken and used against me, and I claim the whole of the document should go in. JVfr. Bennett : Only the part that touches upon the point to which the examination was directed. The Witness: I take exception to that. It deals absolutely with this whole problem of medical attendance on returned soldiers. The Chairman : I think, in view of the fact that it has already been published in a regularly circulated magazine, we should refer to that magazine those who want to see the full copy. I think that would be sufficient, doctor. The Witness: May I introduce into the evidence the name and the date of the Journal that is referred to? The Chairman: Yes, if you refer to the Journal and the page of the Journal on which your article may be found. The Witness: All right, sir. It was pviblished in the Canadian Pmctitioner of October, 1916, under the title of '' ^ledical Problems Involved in the Classification, Treatment and Final Disposition of Invalided Soldiers." Witness discharged. [Colonel F. W. Marlow.] 28277—49 770 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.—RETURNEn SOLDIERS Sergt.-Major W. Rowe Whitton, President of the Great War Veterans Associa- tion of Canada, Toronto District; and William Edward Turlev, Secretary of the same organization, were called, sworn and examined : Bj/ the Chairman: Q. Mr. V hitton, you are, I understand, President of the Great War Veterans Association? — A. Yes. Q. Of Toronto or of Ontario?— A. The Great War Veterans Association of Canada, Toronto District. Q. And Mr. Turley is the Secretary ?— A. Yes. Q. Are you a member of a national organization, or the provincial organization, or the district? — A. Dominion and Provincial. Q. You might tell us, for the benefit of the Committee, what is the recognized organization of returned soldiers, because I understand history has been made in the last few days? — A. We are simply an association of men who have left the shores ol Canada to serve in this campaign. Q. It is Dominion wide? — A. Absolutely. Q. Who is your Dominion president? — A. He has not been elected yet. We are holding a Dominion conference at present, but not the Dominion convention. Mr. Turley: Tentative arrangements have been made for a Dominion confer- ence to be held in Winnipeg on May 23rd, 24th, and 25th. A second provincial con- ference will be held in Ottawa on May 12th, 13th, and 14th. Provisional provincial officers were elected for Ontario yesterday. The Dominion association is in the making. Q. And are the officers as given in this list: — "President, C. Jenkins, Brantford; vice-president, W. R. Whitton^ Toronto; second vice-president, K. C. McPherson, Ottawa; secretary, W. E. Turley, Toronto; treasurer, W. J. Addy, St. Catharines. Committee — W. M. Rabow, Hamilton; J. J. Shanahan, Toronto; L. E. Lowman, Woodstock; P. Victor, Peterboro : — A. That is correct, only an error is made in the spelling of the president's name; it should be spelled J-e-a-k-i-n-s. Q. Do all men who have enlisted belong to your organization? Are they eligible for your organization ? — A. The qualifications of the local branch are overseas service for members of the C. E. F., active service for members of the Imperial and Allied forces ; but the final qualification for membership will not be decided till the Dominion convention, as various associations have various qualifications. Q. As far as you are concerned, then, at the present time a man who has not been overseas is ineligible for membership? — A. Yes. Q. You speak, then, as representing men that have been overseas and have come back again? — A. Yes. Q. I know you have followed to a considerable extent the deliberations of this Committee, and there is no necessity of our asking you any other line of questions except for you to give us your views as to suggesting ways in which the returned men can be more satisfactorily treated than they are at present; we would be glad to hear anything you have to say with regard to the care and treatment of returned soldiers? Mr. Turley: The main cause of trouble, I w^ould say, sir, in the treatment of returned soldiers on this side, is the unaccountable delay in adjusting matters of pay and pension. The Chairman: Let us separate them; they are quite separable; delay in adjust- ing matters of pay? [Sergt.-Major J. Rowe Whitton.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 771 Mr. TuRLEY : There is really remarkable delay in the matter of adjusting the pay and allowances of a man who applies to the Military- Hospitals Commission for treatment after discharge. The Chairman: That is, reinstatement? Mr. Turley: Yes, sir. Take my own case. I am on very friendly terms with all the local members of the Military Hospitals Commission. If it were possible for a man to have his case expedited I feel certain that that would be done in my case. On or about December ^ I applied to the Military Hospitals Commission for treat- ment for an injury, due to active service, which had been aggravated. The Chairman: Prior to that time you had been discharged? Mr. Turley: I had been discharged. I was then on pension. The Chairman : In what degree ? Mr. Turley: One-fifth. The Chairman : And after you had been discharged, and were on one-fifth pension, you suffered from the aggravation of a trouble which caused you to wish to be reinstated? Mr. Turley : Which led me to apply to the Military Hospitals Commission for medical treatment on or about December 4. I applied to Major Munn. Not receiving any notification of action I made one or two telephone calls, and presented myself in person on or about tl\.e 14th day of December, as a result of which I went to the medical board for examination on the 14th; it would probably be on the 13th that I apiilied in person, or it may have been on the same day, but on the 14th December I was examined by a medical board. The medical board recommended that this man be admitted to a hospital for treatment and pay and allowance. The trouble was described as acute synovitis of hte right knee. I returned home to await instruc- tions. Failing to receive any instructions I presented myself to the headquarters of the ^Military Hospitals Comanission on December 25 and was then given a note by Major Munn, advising the officer in charge of the Spadina Convalescent Home to admit me for treatment. The ofiicer in charge of the Spadina Convalescent Home advised me to return home until to-morrow and report again at midday. I did that and at about 5.30 in the evening was instructed to proceed to the College Street Home for treatment. The oflicers in charge of the College Street Convalescent Home advised me to return home until to-morrow. I did that and returned to the College Street Convalescent Home the following evening and was advised to come back the next day. I did so, was examined and admitted to the institution. (Mr. Turley's examination continued.) Q. Were you on pay and allowance during this time when you made these calls ? — A. Supi)osedly I was, but there is not any evidence in support of that supposition. Q. Nothing tangible? — A. No. A period of several days elapsed before the medi- cal specialist who dealt with my particular case had an opportunity of making an examination. The condition was aggravated — w^ell the acute stage really was about the 4th, 5th and 6th of December. It was considered to be an acute case of synovitis when the medical board examined me on December 14. When the medical officer examined me for treatment about the end of the month the condition was not as acute and he was not able to advise any other treatment than I had been giving it which was mainly rest, massage and occasional iodine applications. An X-ray was taken, and the treatment given was rest. Yesterday I received a notification to proceed to the Military Hospitals Commission to re-attest. I was informed there this morning that that would be necessary before I could get the pay and allowance which had been recommended by the board on December 14, so that the matter of pay and allow- ance may yet be decided. Q. You have hope? — A. I have had previous experience. I waited for four months for my first j)ay after I returned to Canada, and a member of Parliament at 28277— 49J FMr. W. E. Turlev.I 772 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETUI^NED SOLDIERS Ottawa and having some influence perhaps expedited delivery on that occasion, although the local officers of the ^Military Hospitals Commission did all that the system permitted them to do to obtain that delayed pay and allowance. Q. You might give us the facts of that case when you first came home; give u- the dates? — A. I arrived at Quebec in the closing days of December, 1915, and, though not fully informed of the finding of the Board, came to the conclusion that I was sent to Toronto for discharge, this being the place of my enlistment. Q. What were you classified as? — A. Class 3. On examination here the medical officers decided that mine was a case that might be improved by further treatment. T was put on treatment. Q. You went into class 2 then? — A. Yes. At the time I was put on treatment the medical officer verbally informed me that that, of course, meant that my pay and allowance would continue. Q. Had your pay and allowance ceased? — A. That is difficult for me to answer. I had received a cheque on arrival in Toronto which still left a balance of pay and allowance, and I did not receive any official information of my discharge or pay or pension, but within three months of my arrival in Toronto I received notice that I had been put on pension, and my first pension was at the rate of about $14 a month. There was no sign of pay and allowance, and about the end of March I applied to the Military Hospitals Commission, and after some investigation it was assumed that Ottawa officially was unaware of my being put back on pay and allowance for the purpose of treatment. Ottawa was then officially informed that that was so, and with the united efforts of the local officers of the Military Hospitals Commission, myself, and a member of Parliament in Ottawa, pay and allowance was finally delivered. Q. Did it cover the back time? — A. Yes. Q. You were paid all up to date then? — A. Yes. Q. This is your own case, and the Committee will be glad to see that that individual case is investigated. You give us that as an illustration of delays in pay- ment? — A. Just as an illustration. Q. Do you know of other cases? — A. I have yet to meet the first returned soldier who boasted of prompt payment. I have yet to meet the first returned soldier who admitted he had been paid promptly. I never met a returned soldier who had not a complaint in regard to the delay in his pay. Q. Do most of the soldiers have their pay book with them when they come back? — A. Yes. Mine was taken from me in Quebec. I have not seen it since. Q. That was in December, 1915?— A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Who took that from you ? — A. One of the officers in charge. Q. On the ship or in Quebec? — A. I would not swear, but my impression is that it was taken by a member of the medical board. I am not positive. Q. At Quebec?— A. At Quebec. By the Chairman: Q. Wliat reason did he give for taking it? — A. I do not know that any particular reason was given. It was merely a request to let him have the pay book, and being a soldier I obeyed. Mr. Whitton : In 1916, during my sojourn in Bath, before being sent over, it wa? the habit to collect the pay book and to say they had to send them to London before tho last pay certificate could be made up. Mine was one that was sent to London and I have not seen it since that date. Mr. Pardee: London, England? Mr. Whitton : Yes. £Mr. W. E. Turley.] RECEPTION, TREATME^^T A^D RE-EDUCATION 773 The Chairman: Do you think that among the returned soldiers in Toronto there are many instances where they have not brought their pay books back with them? ]\[r. Whittox : Oh, hundreds and thousands of instances. The Chairman: Do they bring the pay certificate instead? Mr. Whitton : "Well it is made up in such an intricate manner that the majority of soldiers cannot understand it. Mr. Bennett : It is said the pay books are given out as souvenirs, Mr. Whitton : I have not yet seen a man with his pay book. The Chairman : When the final settlement takes place, and if you are not satisfie(J with the amount coming to you as being the amount you expected, what document have you received from which the exact statement can be made up to your mutual satisfaction ? Mr. Whitton : I have none. Mr. Tl-rley : I never knew a man who had anything more than the pay book, and it seems the custom to take the pay book from him, and then, of course, the only infor- mation obtainable is from the Paymaster General's Department at Ottawa. (Examination of Mr. Turley continued). By Mr. Pardee: Q. When the cheque comes in, is it usually right according to the soldier's reckon- ing? — A. I would saj"^ it is often for the correct amount. Q. And in some cases it has been in excess of the correct amount and in some cases it has been below the correct amount? — A. In some cases it has been in excess of the correct amount. In more cases it has been below it. Q. On the average would it about square up to the correct amount? — A. I think the Paymaster General's Department plays safe. Q. Is that one of the greatest sources of dissatisfaction which the returned soldier has got? — A. Yes, I think that is at the bottom of a great deal of criticism and dis- satisfaction. Q. Would you say that that is a cause of very great dissatisfaction to the returned soldier? — A. Yes, I would say that. Q. You would put that primarily as the cause of real dissatisfaction? Would you go that far? — A. Yes, I would say it was the primary cause. Q. I will put the question in this form: If that were done away with, and the soldier got his pay promptly, would a large percentage of this dissatisfaction dis- appear ? — A. Undoubtedly. Q. So that we can put that as the first cause of dissatisfaction to the returned soldier? — A. I think so, sir. By the Chairman: Q. Where does the dissatisfaction commence? Were you satisfied with your pay and allowances before you left England, had the matter been satisfactorily adjusted there? — A. Yes, I had no difficulty in getting all the money I wanted on my return from the front. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. If you were allowed to retain your pay book would that facilitate matters very much? — A. It would facilitate matters to this extent: that a man personally would be in a position to check \ip his pay and allowances. Whether that would expedite the receipt of what was coming to him, or expedite action from Ottawa, is another ques- tion. [Mr. W. E. Turley.] 774 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Would it prevent disputes about accounts? — A. I would not say tliat, but it would tend to prevent mistakes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. It would enable you to check mistakes? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. When delays of this kind occur to whom can you appeal when you happen to be short of money? — A. It is a temperamental matter. If you feel like writing you will write. If you are a little stoical yoii will pray, and that is about all you can do. You are in the lap of the gods, as it were. Q. You spoke of pay and allowance being withheld for a period of four months? —A. Yes. Q. To what agencies can a man turn in the position that you were in during those four months ? — A. Speaking for myself, I appealed to friends and secured loans. I did not know of any agency to apply to, as at that time the Patriotic Fund did not inake payments to soldiers or their families when the soldier had returned from overseas. Then he had to exist on the charity of his friends. Q. Not after he had been discharged? — A. On his arrival from overseas. That is my impression, sir. Q. I think you will find that the Patriotic Fund takes care of the soldier's family up to the time of the man's discharge. — A. That may be the case now, but not a year ago, sir. Q. At present it takes care of the returned soldier up to the time of his discharge ? — A. At present yes, I believe so. Q. If you are re-attested the Patriotic Fund takes your family on again?— A. I believe so. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What amount, for instance, was coming to you, or what amount comes as a rule to the man, that is held in abeyance? — A. My first cheque on account of delayed pay and allowances amounted to $270 and so much cents. Q. Is that the whole of the amount owing to you? — A. That was up to the end of the month prior to that in which the cheque arrived. Q. $270, you say?— A. Yes. Q. And there was more after that?— A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. Did payment come regularly after that? — A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. After that it came along all right? — A Yes, sir. Q. So there was held in abeyance from December 4, 1916, until ? — A. Oh, no. Q. How long ago, then? — A. Pardon me, you are confusing the two cases. Q. Perhaps so ? — A. I was answering questions regarding delay in the payment of pay and allowances on my return from the front in December 1915. Q. What I want to get at is how long money was kept from you after you returned- here until you actually received it? — A. I received a cheque for $100 on arrival in Toronto. That almost cleaned up my account until the end of December. Q. In what year was that? — A. 1915. It was the fifth month of the year before I received any further pay and allowances, although during that period I was assumed to be on pay and allowances and took the hospital treatment. By the Chairman : Q. You had, however, been discharged during that period and re-attested? — A. That was the explanation given to me, that I had been discharged at Quebec. I had [Mr. W. B. Turley.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 775 no informatian to that effect until it was f^iven to me some months later that the delay was due to my being put back into Class 2. You see, a man coming from overseas has no idea what Class 2 or Class 3 means, and no attempt is made to enlighten him. It seems to me that a simple statement to a man on his arrival as to the meaning of these various classes would do something to straighten matters out. Q. You think that there should be a statement made then and there? — A. I think sc. Q. So that the soldier may be made aware of what is coming to him and what he can expect? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Would there be any reason why, when they took that pay book from you they should not at the same time have given you a statement of what was coming to you? — A. They probably took the book to compare it with the balance sheets at Head- quarters. Q. Where is that? — A. I would assume that it is the Paymaster General's Depart- ment at Militia Headquarters, Ottawa. By M)'. Bennett: Q. As a matter of fact, they treat the pay book in the same way as a savings bank book is treated by a bank when an account is closed? — A. Yes. Q. And they ask you to surrender it at the time they settle your account as the balance due when the account is closed? — A. No explanation was given at the time my pay book was taken up. I assume that that is so. Q. As a matter of fact, you get your last pay certificate, if everything is running smoothly, either at Quebec or London, but for the reasons you have just mentioned you cannot get it at London because may be you have an assigned pay account on this side, and you have been receiving from time to time small sums on account in London. Therefore, there are two ledger accounts, the Record Office account in London, and the Paymastei-'s Account in Ottawa. That is the fact, is it not? — A. I believe so, sir. Q. And when you go to London to leave, you hand in your pay book for the reason I have mentioned and the additional reason that they send it to Ottawa, and I am informed by some of the returned men that they believe that the pay book will be in Ottawa nearly as soon as they get there. Then Ottawa is supposed to have the final determination of the account, having a copy of the ledger account from London together with the record of the man from the date of his going away. That is the story? — A. Yes. Q. What you complain of is, first, the delay in transmitting from London to Ottawa the necessary information to complete the account there, and, secondly', the delay in Ottawa after they get that information in making pajTuent to the returned soldier. Those are the two factors are they not? — A. They seem to be, sir, I know that there is delay. Q. That is the ground of it? — A. That is probably correct, sir. By Mr. Pardeb: Q. You know it is true? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. Has this matter of delay in pay and allowances ever been discussed in your Great War Veterans Association? — A. Yes, frequently discussed. Q. Have any resolutions been passed or record made? — A. No, sir, perhaps we are wrong, but the returned soldier has come to assume that getting into communica- tion with headquarters involves further delay. Q. Well, who do you apply to here in Toronto, in cases of that kind, where you think a mistake has been made, but where you feel that there is goodwill towards you, where do you apply? — A. You would apply to the paymaster of casualties. [Mr. \V. E. Turley.J 776 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—EETURIiEn SOLDIERS Q. Here in Toronto?— A. Yes. Q. And is that known to the members of your association? — A. I believe so. Q. Are your members, as a rule, pretty generally acquainted with the various agencies that have been established here? Mr. Whitton : They generally do that with the chairman of our investigating committee, who takes the whole matter up. The Chairman: Is he here? Mr. Whitton : He is here, sir. The Chairman : Possibly he would like to join you here. Hon. Mr. Murphy: Are you familiar with cases in which discrepancies arose? Mr. Turley: I could not cite any cases with names, but I have heard of many Hon. Mr. Murphy : How have these matters been adjusted when the soldier lacked proof of the amount he claimed was due him? Was he dissatisfied? Mr. Turley: I do not think I can intelligently answer that question. Mr. A. E. Lov/ery : Called, sworn and examined. The Chairman : Mr. Lowery, is the chairman of the investigating committee of the Great War Veterans Association, and will join in the evidence with his colleague, and in this rather informal way questions can be answered by either of the three, whoever has the particular information that is desired. Is there any further infor- mation that you gentlemen would care to add, or that the committee would care to ask regarding delays in pays and allowances? Mr. LoAVERY : May I give you a sample case of those that come up for adjust- ment? The following is a letter I have just received to act upon: (Reads.) Comrade, — I appeal to you, as you are in the investigating committee, of an injustice I received. I arrived in Canada after doing my little bit December 6, 1915. I received pay until Deceiriber 31, 1915. I attended a hospital for treat- ment until February 21, 1916, when I was discharged by medical board, Febru- ary 21, 1916. I thinlv I am entitled to full pay and subsistence for those two months, but I did not get a cent. I wrote several times to Ottawa, but the only answer I can get is : your pension started from January 1, 1916. My pension was $22 for those two months, and you can see that would not pay my two months' board. I ask you to find out why I did not get my full pay while attending hospital. By the Chairman: t Q. In that case, the pay continued up to date that the pension commenced, did it not? — A. Yes, but the man was not discharged from the day his pension commenced and his pay left off. Instead of that he was receiving a pension not sufiicient to keep him. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Was that man in a hospital? — A. He was a patient at the hospital. Under the system that was worked on, I suppose he would have passes. From what I found on investigating the case, he felt that he should be on full pay and allowances until he was discharged from hospital. By the Chairman: Q. It was a misunderstanding, in his not knowing that he was no longer under pay and allowances. — A. It was a mistake of the authorities in not telling him that he was discharged. [Mr. A. E. Lowery.] RECEPriOX, TREATMENT AXD liE-EDLCATIOy 777 By Mr. Pardee: Q. Was he a married man ? — A. I do not know. Q. How much would he have been in receipt of if he had been getting pay and allowances?— A. $62 a month. Q. Instead of that he got $11 a month? — A. Yes. Mr. Pardee: Rather a castly misunderstanding. Mr. -MiDDLEBRO : Was he in hospital longer than he should have been ? !Mr. LowERV : I might say that this man has supplied me with his out-patient's pass for the month of February, 1916. If he was discharged and in receipt of the pension he had no need of the pass. By the Chairman: Q. He sent you the pass in proof of the fact that he was not discharged? — A. The fact of giving him a pass would convince a man that he was still under military jurisdiction. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. How do you figure out that amount of $62 a month? — A. $1.10 a day for pay, 60 cents a day subsistence, and $20 a month separation allowance, assuming him to h(> married. In most cases I find that the men are married. By the Chairman: Q. Are most of your married men receiving assistance from the Patriotic Fund? — A. It is only lately that the Patriotic Fund have taken up the matter of separation allowance. Q. At the present time the Patriotic Fund will look after a marri'ed man until he is discharged?— A. Only if he is an in-patient at the hospital. Q. The out-patients get subsistence money, it would not be necessary? — A. Xo. Q. The out-patients get $71 per month? — A. In some cases. By the Chairman: Q. Have you any other cases, Mr. Lowery, you would like to bring up in regard to pay and allowances? — A. I just quoted that one case; I was hardly prepared to give any evidence on this question, because I have jvist come from my business. At the same time I might state the case of Private J. Martin, who was discharged by several boards, overseas and in this country. On investigation, I have found nothing which would lead to the supposition that his injuries were not received overseas and under active service conditions. He was recommended by those boards for a full pension, and after receiving that pension for several months he was sent up for re-examination to another board, and that board recommended that his pension stop at the end of six months. That man dropped from $480 to nothing. He came to me, and I had him examined by an impartial medical man, who stated that he was seven- eighths useless from the standpoint of earning a living. Q. Is he still on pension ? — A. I took the matter up with the District Pension Officer, and I was led to believe that it would be adjusted after a second examination, but I have not had it confirmed that the matter has really been adjusted. Q. As investigation officer, are there many cases of that kind come under your notice? — A. Yes, I had another case this week of a man from overseas; his wife called at my residence and stated that the man was sick in bed in a very weak state and troubled with a racking cough. I called in a medical man, who examined him, and he reported that this man was in such a run-down condition that he needed from [Mr. A. E. Lowery.] 778 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.K.F.—RETUh'NED SOLDIERS three to six months' treatment as an in-patient in a convalescent hospital. That man when he reached Canada was discharged, and received a discharge, dated March 24, which is Saturday next ; it is all signed, that he is discharged as on the 24th of March. Q. And he received his pay and allowances up to that time, and on that date his pension will commence? — A. Yes, but the point I wish to bring out is that the man was discharged in such a state of health which could and should have been remedied by the military authorities before his discharge. I am about to take this man's case up with the proper authorities, and I have a medical certificate in my pocket for the authorities. Q. What you should endeavour to do in that case is to get the man recommitted to the hospital and that would entitle him to pay and allowance? — A. Yes. Q> And if he were once in there he would be kept as long as it was necessary? — A. That is what I was working for, to get him back to the hospital, and to have him put back on the military strength. Q. As you know, recently arrangements have been made by the military authori- ties in order to meet such a case as you have referred to? — A. I am not prepared to speak upon that point, because before the case was handed to me, I understand that someone tried to make these arrangements, and found considerable difficulty in the way. By the C It air man: Q. In a case of that kind you would, I suppose, apply to Mr. Riddell of the Hospitals Commission? — A. Yes. Q. And he would take it up with the Hospitals Commission with a view of having the man recommitted to the hospital? — A. That is the procedure I hope it will go through. Mr. Pardee: What further suggestions or criticisms have you to make? The Chairman: You have been speaking with regard to pay and allowances, and if you have exhausted that subject you might deal with pensions? — A. I am afraid that pay and allowances is a subject that can be dealt with at very great length. Take in my own case I received the statement of account from the time I enlisted until the time I returned, and I wrote back and told them they were paying me too much. Then they wrote back and told me that instead of paying me anything, I owed them, so I thought it was better to drop the whole thing, for fear they would make out I owed them more than I could really pay them. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What office did you get that letter from in regard to your pay? — A. I got it from Ottawa, through the Soldiers' Aid Commission. Q. Did they send you the original letter written by somebody in the department ? — A. It was a copy of the letter received by the Officer of the Soldiers' Aid Commission in answer to my correspondence. Q. Have you that copy of the letter with you ? — A. It is not here, but I have it on file at my home. Q. Will you let us have it here? — A. I will let you have it, but I want to keep it' because it is historical. Q. J only want you to bring it here for the purpose of giving evidence on it. Whom is that letter from? — A. I do not know, but I can find out from the correspond- ence itself. Q. 1 would like you to bring it here? — A. Very well. B7J 3Ir. Bennett: Q. I understand that the delay in these matters arises from tlie fact that the Adjutant-General has ordered a certain man for discharge, and the pension becomes operative from that date and, between the date at which it actually comes into effect [Mr. A. E. Lowery.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 779 aud the date at which the man is notified, he only gets his pension instead of his pay and allowance? — A. That is a fact. Q. That is that the order from the Adjutant-General for his discharge is effective as from the date on which it is passed; for instance the Order miglit issue to-day that Private John Smith is discharged as from the 1st of March, and the hardship you complain of is that between the date on which the Order becomes effective, and the date on which the man receives the notice, he only draws the pension when he under- stood tliat he would be drawing his pay and allowances? — A. Yes. Q. And what you ask is that the Order for the discharge of a returned soldier shall only, as far iis his pay and allowances are concerned, become effective from the date he receives his notice? — A. That is the point. Q. Is it not true that a gi'atuity has usually been paid to him so that the man •vould have compensation by way of gratuity, which would provide for the period that elapses between those two dates? — A. I have never met a man who looked upon a gratuity as being given for that purpose. Q. I am trying to find out, because I was asking the other night about it, and it struck me that owing to the order for the discharge being effective at a date already passed and that from that time on pay was received by way of pension rather than of pay and allowances that the gi'atuity compensated for the loss of pay and allowances to the man. Of course the purpose for which it was given, I do not know? — A. Well, sir, ?eeing that the gratuity is sent through the Pensions Board, and enclosed with it is correspondence stating that it is in full payment of all claims, it hardly reads as though it were to make up the difference of the time betwixt a man being discharged and receiving his pension. Q. But does it not rather look that way? — A. No, I don't think so. Mr. Bennett : Because it is paid* by the Pensions Board, and is not the gratuity paid to all? Mr. TuRLEV: Pardon me; the gratuity is given in lieu of pension. If a man gets a pension he does not get gratuity. A gratuity is given where he doesn't qualify, where the Board considers he does not qualify for a pension. I have not any know- ledge of a gratuity under any other circumstances. Mr. Bennett: I am sure it applies only to cases that are less than 20 per cent disability, and in lieu of any pension whatever. Mr. Turley: Yes, and incidentally there is a great deal of dissatisfaction regarding that gratuity system. The Chairman: You might speak of that now. Mr. Bennett: This returned soldier told me he thought the gratuity was fair to all. Mr, Tlrlev: Xever heard of it. Mr. Bennett: I subsequently investigated it, and I think you are right, that the gratuity is not fair to all men. The Chairman : A man who is put on a monthly pension does not get a gratuity. Mr. Turley: Speaking of the gratuity, I know a Sergeant-Major Langtry, who had about nine months' service at the front; he came out with a complica- tion of ailments known as trench fever. He had been a police officer before he went overseas; he was discharged with a gratuity of $50 in consequence of the ruling of the ]k[edical Board. lie resumed his duties on the police force of the city of Toronto, and he is unable to carry on those duties as he did before the war. He has had to lay up. The point is this: This man accepted the gratuity of $50 in full settlement of claim; a few weeks later, or months as the case might be, he finds him- self unable to follow the civil occupation he followed prior to enlistment. He has no further claim on the Government, having accepted a small gratuity in full settle- ment of claim, and he is in a very bad position. [Mr. A. E. Lowery.] 780 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.P.—RE'nUy ED HOLDIERS Mr. "Bennett: I understaud that neither tlie Imperial Government nor the French Government nor the Government of our own country set up any such release as an answer to further claims, if the claims be of a character that might not have been readily apparent at the date the gratuity was paid. Mr. Turley: It seems to me, sir, that the final Board of a soldier for discharge should deal with his condition in total. Take my case. My outstanding condition was defective vision. I am not examined by the Medical Board for anything else, but as a man suffering from defective vision, and discharged on a small pension because of defective vision. A few months later an old injury, due to active service, recurs, and I apply for treatment for that injury. Following that, I made an attempt to re-enlist. I was rejected because I had a bad heart. No knowledge of it, and as far as the medical records of my military service go there is nothing to show in those records that there was anything wrong with my heart. Mr. Bennett: But was it not to meet that situation that it was provided that a returned soldier might apply for a new board at any time within twelve months? I remember that very question being raised; and hence it was that there was a period of probation, so to speak, of twelve months, and it was believed that any ailments from which he might suffer and which had not been apparent would assert themselves within the year and he could be re-boarded. Is not that right? Mr. Turley: I believe that is the system in the case of a man discharged on pension. Mr. Bennett : Now, a man under 20 per cent disablement who accepts that gratuity in satisfaction of any claims is never confronted with that, is he? Mr. Turley : He is not acquainted with the knowledge, if it is a fact, that he has a right to make an appeal and demand a further examination. Mr. Bennett: In practice have you ever heard of a case in which the Govern- ment — not only our own, but any Government — has set up the signing of that release or that satisfaction as a reason why they should not consider his ease? I have not, but I am anxious to hear? " Mr. Turley: No, I can't say that I have, but I have not heard of a man who accepted a gratuity in full settlement of claim ever having secured a re-adjustment. The Chairman: Have you ever heard of cases where they have tried and failed? Mr. Turley: No, sir. Examination of Mr. Turley continued: By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Take the case of your police officer who received a gratuity and has become ill again; has he endeavoured to be re-boarded? — A. I believe so, sir. Q. Has he been refused? — A. Not to my knowledge. Q. What is being done in his case? — A. It is under consideration. Q. How long has it been under consideration? — A. I don't know. Mr. Pardee: Mr. Lowery, could you take this matter up with Mr. Turley as to the police officer, and between now and to-morrow get the particulars of that and bring them here? That is: What steps have been taken, and how long it has taken them, and just what position that is in at the present time? Mr. Lowery: Yes. Hon. Mr. Murphy : And bring the man here liimself. [Mr. W. E. Turley.] RECEPTION, TREATME'ST AND RE-EDUCATION 781 Examination of ;^t^. Turley continued. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Under what class would a man come who had lost one of his fingers? — A. Gratuity. "" Q. No matter what finger it was? — A. I would think so, according to their present system. Q. Then he is injured permanently for the balance of his life? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And he would be paid otf with a gratuity? — A. Yes. Q. Perhaps $50; not more than $100?— A. Ko. Q. He cannot get more than $100? — A. He could not. Q. Then that is because he is supposed to be injured less than 20 per cent, whereas a man who is injured 21 per cent gets $8 a month for the balance of his life? — A. My understanding is that those pension awards are for twelve months, subject to re-adjust- ment at the end of 12 months. Q. If he is put in Class 5 and is permanently injured for the balance of his life, according to the Pensions Act he gets $8 a month for the balance of his life. Q. In discussions along this line in your association do you think that a man who is injured 21 per cent should get $90 a year for the balance of his life provided he is injured permanently, and the man who is injured, say, 19 per cent, with his finger oflF, "which is certainly permanent for the balance of his life, gets $50 and is paid off? — A. We don't like the gratuity system. We think a man qualifies for a pension or he does not, and this gratuity system is not in favour. Q. Do you think there is any good reason why a man who is injured 19 per cent of his capacity should only get $50, while a man injured 20 per cent gets $100 for the Balance of his life? — A. No, I don't like the system. Mr. LowERY : On this subject the general feeling of the men, so far as I can judge, is that a man if he is disabled should receive a pension. For instance, if he only loses a finger which does not interfere with his work, that man is scarred, and he is not the man he was previously; there is a disfigurement, and that man feels it; and then along comes someone else, and they have nothing to show, and they draw a pension for six months. It does not seem to compare. The man is going around, a permanent witness to his wounds. Mr. MiDDLEBRO : Have you ever had any gratuity men who have been so perman- ently injured that they are not able to follow their previous vocations? ^fr. WiiiTTOx : We have men in that condition, any amount of them. ]Mr. MiDDLEURo: You know men in Class 6 who are in your opinion entitled to gratuities, but nevertheless because of permanent impairment have not been able to follow their usual occupation? Mr. Tlrlev : There are such cases. I have not myself the names and particulars of any such case, but they have been frequently mentioned in meetings. A man may have followed his trade or calling, but finds himself quite unable to follow with a minor injury which does not qualify him for a pension, but yet debars him from following the occupation at which he formerly made a better salary than he is now able to make in his substituted occupation. Mr. MiDDLEBRO : Is there any reason why that man should not receive a permanent pension, any more than the man who was injured 21 per cent. ^Ir. Tlri.ky: No reason whatever. The Chairman : Would you be satisfied to say that a man under 21 per cent should get $4 a month or $5 a month, and have it sealed down that way? Mr. Turley: That would be the most satisfactory method of dealing with it in my opinion, to continue that graded system. [Mr. W. E. Turley.] 782 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Mr. MiDDLEBUO : Grade it down to a dollar a mouth, rather than give him a gratuity.. The Chaiuman: You probably are aware that the pension is paid for children? Mr. Turley: Yes. Mr. WiiiTTON : Only for total disablement. The Chairman: No, it runs first, second and third class now. If a woman has three children she gets $6 a month for each of the three children for the first, second and third class pension, but it stops at the end of the third class. If it is a fourth class disablement he gets nothing for the children. There is a drop there between the third and fourth class. Would you prefer that should be graduated, six, five, four, three, two, one? Mr. Turley : That is a just way to do it. The Chairman : Rather than six, six, six ? Mr. Whitton: I do not see why they should not recognize the wife all the way down. Mr. Turley : Grade according to disability ; that is the logical way. The Chairman: You would prefer that method? Mr. Turley: Yes. Mr. Whitton : In the matter of pensions of course they cannot please every one, but the greatest complaint about the present pensions is that they are totally inadequate all the way through. Take a single man drawing $480 a year, how can he help him- self — I mean totally disabled ? The Chairman: He gets an additional amount iii he is totally disabled — $730 a year.- Mr. Whitton : If he is a married man with six children and he is totally disabled, he will get $480 a year disablement, and $250 for someone to wait upon him, and if he has three children he will get $18 a month for the three children, "which is $216 more a year. So that a totally disabled man with wife and three children gets $946 a year. Mr. Turley : That is the height of the pension scale. How about the man with or without a wife who, prior to enlisting for overseas service, followed an occupation which brought him from $100 to $200 a month? The Chairman: How about the officer who had an occupation which brought him $10,000 a year? Mr. Turley : I think the pensions should be based to some extent on the earning capacity of the soldier prior to enlistment. The Chairman: 'No flat rate? Mr. Turley: No, because in the first division we had men in the ranks who threw up positions worth two or three hundred dollars a month to go over, and they come back disabled, and they get four or five hundred dollars a year. They have given all but life itself. The Chairman: Don't you think that would be a pretty severe discrimination against some? Take a boy of 18 who has not commenced to earn anything, or who perhaps earned $20 a month, and you put him on the basis of continuing his present earnings ? Mr. Turley : I will admit the plan would have great difficulty, but I feel it would give more general satisfaction. The Chairman: Do you not think the plan of giving a basic amount, presumably sufficient to support him comfortably, and then undertaking to re-educate and re-train the man in the hospital, and fit him for making a better use of what faculties he has left, will meet the difficulty? [Mr. W. E. Turley.] RECEI'TIOX, TREATMENT AXD RE-EDUCATION 783 Mr. TuKLEY : It may, somewhat. Mr. Whitton: If you have a man coming back who is about 4.5 years of age, he has not the same facilities for learning a new trade as a man of 20. A man of that age would have a wife and perhaps a large family, and he would receive the same pension as the young fellow under class 3. He has a wife and children to maintain, and has to learn a new trade, and he is twice the age of the young man. The Chairman : The probability is that some of the children are pretty well grown up. Mr. Whitton : They may be 14, 12 and 10. The Chairman: Do you think, in view of the difficulty which must always attend the pension arrangement, it must, after all be carried on according to fixed rules and regulations, do you think there is need of an outside organization similar to the patriotic fund to supplement pensions in extreme cases. Mr. Whitton : The pensions certainly need supplementing. I do not know where they will be able to get it. (Examination of Mr. Lowery continued). Mr. Lowery : A man who is totally disabled and unable to care for himself, with two children, will receive full pensions, $480, $144 per year for his two children and $250 per year for his wife, which will make $874, and that man is in a position at the time of enlistment, with life before him, say at the age of 22 or 23, he is earning $800 or $900 during the period that is past. Now times have advanced and salaries have advanced on account of the high cost of living. That man at the present time would be worth at the least $1,000 a year, not allowing for improvement in his ability and experience. In other words a man because he is a returned soldier and disabled, is going to be living with his wife and two children on $874 per year, while the man who never went away is going to have an opportunity to go ahead and improve his position and that man is put on a lower financial status on account of going away and fighting for his country. 1 think that shows that the pensions are not large enough. In regard to the question of an outside association supplementing the pension, we do not believe in that. The pension must be made adequate; it is most undesirable to be seeking the help of any outside association. Q. Take the case here, where a totally disabled man with two children gets $874. I suppose there would be cases known to you where that was less than the disabled soldier was getting before? — A. In almost every case. Q. There were other cases where it would be a good deal more than the man was getting before? — A. Very few, sir. Q. Would you say that where it was less than what the man was getting before he should receive more, and that where it was more than he was getting before he should be given less? — A. I would say that the pensions in all cases should be such as would place the returned soldier in a position similar to what he would have enjoyed had he not gone to the war and suffered on behalf of his countrj-. Q. Suppose for the sake of argument, that every soldier, out of the 350,000 men, should be totally disabled, and that every one of them should have two children? — A. Do you mean to take the average for the whole number? Q. Yes. — A. No, sir, I do not thinlc that it would. Q. Do you know that evidence has been brought before the committee showing that out of the first 200,000 soldiers enlisted there were 142,000 manual labourers? — A. At the present time labourers are drawing wages of 30 cents an hour for eight hours work, making $2.40 a day, and all kinds of overtime. [A. E. Lowery.] 784 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETUIilSlED SOLDIERS Q. Not for life, and a man over 45 years of age canuDt get any such pay. lu this case the disabled soldier gets his pension if he lives to be lUO. Mr. Bennett: This is an annuity. A. Then simply because of the fact that a number of returned soldiers would better their conditions by being pensioners, you are going to prejudice the claims of men who have had to forfeit their ambition in life by reason of going on active ser- vice and getting disabled. Q. You are referring to men who have still some capacity for work? — A. No, I am referring to totally disabled men. By Mr. Ross_ (Middlesex) : Q. Of course totally disabled men will have to be supported by the State. Q. But, Mr. Lowery, have you ever considered this point : That the payment by the State represents the interest on $15,000. It is like giving the man the use of $15,000 at 6 per cent for the rest of his life. That is not bad, is it? — A. You are looking at the matter from a business-like or a financial point of view. Q. That is how we are viewing it. — A. Yes, but if you do, see what will happen: I have been very active in recruiting for the last two or three weeks, and I am afraid such a prospect as you hold out would not appeal very strongly to possible recruits. Q. That is not the point. — A. Yes, it is, sir. It crops up the moment the subject is broached of keeping the man on a level with what his position was before he was injured. Now, if the subject is good to be looked at from a business point of view wholly, that is to say, that it will take such and such an effort on the part of the country, and you argue we can only go so far in the right direction, men will look at the proposition askance and will have no desire to be returned soldiers. Q. You do not catch my point. We desire to treat the men generously, but we want to get at the point that is generous, and I have just given you an illustration to show you what this means. When I give you the illustration it indicates just what is involved in dollars and cents. (No answer). The Chairman: After all, Mr. Lowery, you are the country just the same as we are, and whatever is given to the soldier has to be raised by taxation. If $874 a year represents the interest on $15,000, and it should happen that we had to provide for 50,000 returned men, that would be $750,000,000. We have to consider these things, much as we may desire to be generous to the returned soldiers. Mr. Whitton: May I ask you how the pensions paid by Canada compare with those paid by the United States. The Chairman: I do not know. Mr. Whitton: The United States had no difficulty in raising the necessary $900,000,000 for the payment of pensions resulting from their civil war. The Chairman: I would not like to see the conditions which characterized the United States pension system, introduced into this country. Mr. Whitton: The United States, in spite of its pension demands, today enjoys greater prosperity than it ever did. The Chairman: I trust that the features witnessed in connection with the United States pension scheme will not be repeated here. Mr. Whitton : I should like to know why there should be any discrimination in the rates of pension paid. For example, an elevator man gives up his job, or an office man gives up his job, to go on active service as a private. Now, the total disable- ment payment for the rank and file is $480, whereas for a captain it is $1,000. The Chairman: That is the proposition universally accepted under all pension schemes. [A. E. Lowery.] RECEPTIOy, TREATMKyr AXD RE-EDLVATlOs 785 Mr. Whittox : But why discriminate in a country where every man is deemed to be as good as his neighbour and all discharge the same duties ; that is, they go overseas and fight for the country. Take the case of the non-commissioned officer. He is recognized as the backbone of the army, the man upon whom all drill instruction and the maintenance of discipline falls. Now, the Sergeant-Major of the battalion gets $680 for total disablement. Mt. Middlebro: Why should he get more than the private? Mr. Whitton : That is what I want to know. Why should the captain get $1,000 a year^ I suggest that there should be a maximum and a minimum. What that should be, although I have my own view, I am not prepared to say. I would suggest a maximum and a minimum pension for all ranks. Mr. Pardee: What do you mean by that? Mr. Lowery: I mean that there should be a maximum and a minimum pension for disablement/in the case of all ranks. The Chairman: There is at present a maximum and minimum disablement through all ranks. Mr. Lower V : Xo. The Chair>[an : And this percentage is 80, 60, 40 ; it goes down through all ranks just the same. ^Ir. Lowery : Yes, but take the rt-gimental Sergeant-Major with $680 a year, and ihe private, with $4S0. You discriminate between the private and the regimental Sergeant-Major. The CiiAiRMAN : It has always been done. Mr. Lowery : It has always been done, but that is no reason why it should be perpetuated in this country. Hon. Mr. Daniel: Where a man is in the habit of making, say, $100 or $200 a month before he goes into service, should he have a higher pension than the man who is only making $60 a month ? The officer, as a rule, draws a higher pension than the rank and file. Mr. Tlrley: And what about the position of a man like this: we will say it is a man who ran a store and enlisted as a private in the First Division. He may get $600 a year less than the man who sold ribbons for him and went over as a Lieutenant- Colonel in a later division. That is why I am in favour of the pension being adjusted to the earning capacity of the man before enlistment. Mr. Bennett: That would deprive some men of anything at all, as the Chairman has pointed out. Mr. Tlrley : There are no men in this cotmtry who can live without receiving an' income. IMr. Bennett: But the Chairman directed your attention to the case of a young man of 18 or 19 who had not yet an earning capacity. Mr. Tlrley: A fair estimate could be given of the earning capacity in view of the man's education and physical condition and possibilities. Of course, conditions vary greatly. A young man of 18 years of age may go to college and be educated for a profession and afterwards earn a salary of $5,000, $10,000, or $15,000 a year. The Chairman: Would you like to accept the task of pension commissioner to make such adjustments? 'Mr. Lowery: Yes, under certain conditions. Now, I would suggest $100 per month as a maximum for all ranks. The Chairman: You think that the pensions that are paid to officers in Canada are too high as compared with the pensions paid to the rank and file? 28277—50 "^ [A. E. Lowery.] 786 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Mr. Whitton: I do not consider the officers any more than the privates, or the privates any more than the officers. I rcprard them all as men who have gone to fight for their country. In civilian life there is no such distinction made. I have had 23 years of military experience in the Imperial Army and have served several colonial governments. I possess a long service and good conduct medal, although not in receipt of any pension. I gave up my position at Appleby College as professor of physical culture and gymnastics and had the misfortune to be shot through the wrist in Belgium. I am now receiving a pension of two-fifths and have got a wife and two children to support. My earning capacity is diminished. Mr. Bennett: To what extent is your earning capacity impaired? Mr. Whitton: I am totally incapacitated from following my previous enaployment. Mr. Bennett : As a gymnast, not as an instructor ? Mr. Whitton : Yes. I can do no more swinging around of bars. I have had to seek other employment. That is only one instance. The Chairman : Are you able in any way to avail yourself of anything offered by the Military Hospitals Commission? Mr. Whitton : JSTo, I have not gone to the Commission. I have employment through my own personal influence, in the Imperial Munitions Board. They recognize the worth of the returned men, I 'am very glad to say, and they do not cut down the wages when they hear what pension a man is receiving. In many factories, where a man is in receipt of a pension, he is paid so much less because he is getting a pension. Mr. TuRLEY : One of the first cases that occurred was with one of the largest con- cerns in the city of Toronto. A man who had had charge of a department in that factory at $100 a month returned from the front minus an arm. Pra-ctically and technically he was the best man in the city of Toronto for the position he had formerly occupied. His position had been filled in the meantime. The loss of his arm was no handicap in fiLlling the position in the department of which he had formerly had charge. His technical and practical knowledge would carry him through. The average wage of men employed in that department on the same work was $80 a month. This man was in receipt of a pension of $20 a month, and the firm declined to pay him any more than $60, although they knew as well as everybody else did who was familiar with the circum- stances that he is the most valuable man in the department. Mr. Bennett : He is receiving less than he did before. Mr. TuRLEY : $20 a month less for a period of five or six months, but the firm has since seen fit to make an increase of $10 a month. But he is now doing the work at less pay than the men who did not go, and he has superior qualifications to any of them, and the loss of a hand makes no difference to him at all. Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Is that man working in a munitions factory? Mr. Turley: No, sir. The Chairman : Does your experience as a whole go to show that the manufacturers and employers of Toronto pay less wages for the same service to a returned soldier with a pension than they do to a civilian? Mr. Whitton: In many cases. Mr. TuRLEY : Not as a whole, but there is a tendency to consider the pension. Mr. Whitton : An employer will simply pay a man for what he can do. Patriotism does not enter into it at all. A man goes there with an arm off, and the employer will pay what he thinks the man is worth. While we have the sympathy of the employers, they will tell a man : ". I can only employ you for what you can do for me." The Chairman : If that man applies for a job where two men are required, in that case would the returned soldier find that less pay was given him? [Mr. A. E. Lowery.] RECEPTION. TREATMENT AND RE-EDL CATION 787 Mr. Whittox : Less pay is given a man on account of his being disabled in that way. The Chairman:: Does the manufacturer fear that the man will be liable to injury in tlie mnnhinery? Mr. TuRLEY : There is no risk in that way, the province assumes the risk. JMr. Whitton: I have been interested in hearing the different troubles of the boys, and i have had them tell me that it is practically a bye-word in Toronto that if an employer needs an elevator operator or anything of that kind he will try to get a returned soldier because he can get him much cheaper. I have investigated cases in vdunition factories. The usual rate of wages is 35 cents an hour. These men would cimplain that because they were in receipt of a pension of $8 a month they would be ^ven 8 or 10 cents less per hour. The Chairman : Could they turn out as much work in an hour? Mr. Whittox: Yes, they do, they have both their hands. 1 asked the factory irianager if certain men I had in mind were employed. He said they were. I asked ium now they were doing, and he replied : " Very well, indeed.'' *' Don't you think they should get the same wages," I asked. He answered : " They are in receipt of a pension already.'* I might say that eventually they got the same rate o± wages as the other employees. Since that little investigation both men have improved their position in the same plact, Mr. Bennett: The labour organizations will be able to take care of such cases as that.. Mp. Turley : I presume that the Trades Unions will do their utmost to see that members of the union capauie of performing work receive uniform rates of pay. But that will not convert the selnsnness of some manufacturers who think it ^ight to share the pension a man eaniK,. The Chairman: On tne other hand, will there not always be a certain number of disabled men, who, for their own good, might beti^r be employed, and whose wages will necessarily be less than those of whole men , Mr. Turley: That is quite right. The Chairman : You have no objection to that when it is understood frankly all around? Mr. Turley: What we object to is the tendency that has been shown by the manufacturers to take advantage of a man's pension by cutting his salary down to that extent when the man was performing his work as well as other men doing the same work. Mr. Pardee: Do you know whether or not the Ontario Compensation Board will allow a manufacturer to employ a disabled man where there is machinery? !Mr. Turley : I could not «!ay -o > do not think a manufacturer would take the risk of employing a disabled man. Mr. Pardee: I have been told that they will not allow it on railways, that is to sav they would not permit disabled men to handle trains. "WTiere they come under the Workmen's Compensation Act, you might possibly look into that. Mr. Ti itLEY : That is quite likely to be so. Mr. Bennett : What you say is, that for equal service there should be equal credit? Mr. Turley: Yes. Mr. Whitton : Where a man is slightly injured and he happens to be in receipt of a small pension of 50 cents a day, it should not be for a certain period, but for life if permanent. The Chairman: We are meeting here again to-morrow afternoon and all day Friday and if you wish to come before us again we shall be glad to hear you. We shall be hearing to-morrow soldiers' delegations from the Western provinces. Witnesses retired. Committee adjourned until 2.30 p.m. Thursday. -'S2T7— 50A 4 i APPENDIX EXHIBITS Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. EXHIBIT No. 1. {Submitted by lion. G. Howard Ferguson.) No. 73. 1917. BILL An Act Providing for the Agricultural Settlement of Soldiers and Sailors Serving Overseas in the Present War. HIS MAJESTY, by and with the advice and consent of the Legis- tive Assembly of the Province of Ontario, enacts as follows: — 1. This Act may be cited as The Returned Soldiers' and Sailors' Short Title. Land Settlement Act. 2. The administration of this Act shall be entrusted to the Minister Administra- and Department of Lands, Forests and Mines and the Lieutenant- *'°" °^ '^'^'■• Governor in Council may declare that any section or sections or part of The Public Lands Act shall not apply to lands settled and-^PP^''^^*'°" located under the provisions of this Act, but except when so provided, c. 28. all the provisions of Tlie Public Lands Act applicable to free grants of public lands to settlers, shall apply to lands settled and located under this Act. 3. The Lieutenant-Governor in Council may set apart and Setting appropriate any territory which he may deem suitable for settle- ^^^.y^'j^^^'"^'" ment and cultivation for the purposes hereinafter mentioned, and purposes may from time to time withdraw from reservation any lands soo^^ct. designated and not thereupon located under this Act and substitute other lands for any so withdrawn as may be deemed proper. 4. The lands set apart shall be reserved for location by persons who may who since the 4th day of August, A.D. 1914, have been upon active l>eiocaters. military or naval service with the British forces, out of Canada, against the King's enemies. 5. Upon the recommendation of the Minister the Lieutenant- Regulations. Governor in Council may make regulations respecting the settlement and location upon any area set apart under section 3: — 1. Prescribing the form and procedure upon application for settle- '^PP'ication , ° ^ i- i-f for settle- ment ; ment. 2. Providing for the establishment, erection, furnishing and ™aiii" instruction tenance of one or more instruction depots, and for the depots appointment, duties and remuneration of the staff thereof,'?,' Montieth, -.rt, ■• -1. • I* , 1 -^ cw Ontstrio. and for the training and instruction to be given at such depots; 3. For forming farm colonies in any area set apart for common Farm labour in clearing and preparing the land for cultivation ; '^°'°"'^^' I. For the payment of wages or other remuneration to applicants "Wages, etc., for work done at such training depots or upon lands to fee^°'"^°'''^ located and settled under this Act, and for provisions, railway locaters. fares, material, freight, medical attendance, and other ex- penses in connection therewith ; 791 792 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Settlement duties and conditions. Survey of lots. Loans to settlers, $500.00. 2 Geo. V, c. 2 ; 5 Geo. V, c. 6 ; 6 Geo. V, c. 11. Supplies to settlers. Stock, implements and machinery. Co-operative arrange- ments. Committees of arrange- ment. Sites for public build- ings and school- houses. General. 5. Prescribing the settlement duties and the conditions to be ful- filled by applicants before the issue of a patent; 6. Prescribing the area and the manner of surveying and laying out the lots; 7. For the making of advances or loans to settlers, as provided by The Northern and Northwestern Ontario Development Acts or otherwise; 8. For supplying necessary machinery, tools, stock and assistance in building upon and otherwise improving the lands located upon or settled under this Act; 9. Providing for the purchase of stock, implements and agricul- tural machinery for the use of settlers, and the terms of such user; 10. For co-operative arrangement for the purchase and sale of goods, wares, merchandise, produce, stock, machinery, im- plements and other articles by settlers; 11. Providing for the management by a committee or otherwise, of the affairs of any colony of settlers; 12. For the setting apart of sites and erecting thereon public buildings for religious and secular gatherings and school- houses ; 13. Generally for the better carrying out of the intentions and provisions of this Act. H ^ •• ^^^ o o El O! :=• •^ m' th en CO 2 M ^5 td y3 o Q 2' p RECEPTION, TREATMEXr AXD RE-EDl'CATWS 793 EXHIBIT No. 2. (Submitted hi/ Mayor T. L. Church.) Memo. Presented by Mayor T. L. Church, of Toronto, re Keturned Soldiers, Pre- sented to the Special Committee of the Senate and House of Commons, in Session at tlie City Hall, Toronto, Tuesday, March 20, 1917. (1) I desire to officially welcome the members of the committee to Toronto. As I take it, you have been appointed to make a survey of condition,s and decide what shall be done. I must congratulate you on the business-like way you are proceeding and welcome you to our city, which is not surpassed by any city in the British Over- sea Dominions in its contribution of both men and money. Everybody is proud of what Canada has done in this war, and the Parliament of Canada is to be con- gratulated on having appointed this Committee. I know that your work will bear fruit abundantly. You have a great work before you, and as President of the Union of Canadian Municipalities for three years of the war, I promise you the united support .of the municipalities in your work. I have written down some suggestions, which, while you may not agree with them all, are worth discussing. I hope that it will be distinctly understood that I am not criticising herein any one personally, but simply dealing with principles. As I have already said, these questions are very hard matters to deal with in a great war like this, but the Govern- ment and the various public organizations who have had charge of war matters have on the whole made a good start in the way they have dealt with the problems before them. (2) ALL IIONOLR TO OUR HEROES. I regret I cannot agree with Lieut.- General Sir Sam Hughes, when Sir Sam told a Toronto audience the other night " Not to pamper the returned soldiers." I wish that such warnings were needed. There is no danger of the returned soldier being- pampered, either in Toronto or any place else. Under our Militia Department, everybody in sight was pampered but the soldiers on active service. An officer could go overseas, and come back wounded to find that he is junior in rank to some officer who was junior to him when he left Canada and has been promoted to high military rank, without sacrifice of comfort or hazard of life or limb. I hope that Sir Edward Kemp will make a change in the direction of greater consideration for returned soldiers. I am proud of what Toronto has done. There is a fine spirit among the people of this city. But the best of us do not need to bo warned against the sin of pampering the returned soldier. We have got to improve a whole lot before we need any such warn- ings or begin to do as much fbr the returned soldiers as these soldiers and their com- rades have done for us. (3) WANTED MORE HEART. We want more heart, more consideration, more sympathy in the hospital and medical service rendered to the Canadian soldiers in this country, and especially to the returned men.- The authorities should remember that these men are citizens and civilians and in distributing returned soldiers should not wantonly tear a man away 794 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETVIi'SED SOLDIERS from the home of his wife and children and friends. It is all wrong to send men, whose friends are in Toronto, to Whitby or some other outside point, and to keep men who have no friends in this city in Toronto. The comfort and. rights of the men should be studied as far as possible. (4) GET RETURNED SOLDIERS TO HELP. I believe that the immediate problems in connection with the returned soldiers can be best handled with the help of the returned soldiers. The garrison police in Toronto and every other military centre should be made up of returned soldiers. The employment commissions should be directed by returned soldiers and the treat- ment given to returned soldiers in the hospitals and convalescent homes should be inspected and checked up by the personal representatives of the Minister of Militia chosen from a list submitted to the Minister by the Great War Veterans Association in each military district. (5) RE EMPLOYMENT. As to employment the leadership and operation of the Soldiers' Aid Commis- sions should be kept open for returned soldiers. The returned soldiers will know how to meet the needs of returned soldiers better than these needs can be met by civilian officials. x\n organization in Toronto recently got itself together and decided to abolish the spoils system. There won't be any more spoils system. " To the victors belong the spoils" and the victors who come homa f rem the triumph that saves Cati- ada will have at least something of what they deserve in the form of a first claim to appointment, to every office under Dominion, provincial or municipal govern- ments. Government jobs and municipal jobs will not go very far in payment of this country's debt to the returned soldiers. (6) A NEW FARM PLAN — SIR ADAM's VISION. • I am glad to see the Ontario Government taking hold of the work of providing farms and equipment for returned soldiers who might want to go on the land in New Ontario. There will be more returned soldiers who might be attracted to poultry farm- ing, fruit farming and market gardening if they had a chance to get started. I hope the Ontario Government will invite Sir Adam Beck to work out a scheme by which soldiers who want to get on the land in older portions of Ontario will be able to get on the land along the line of the Hydro Eadials. The main responsibility for a large solution of the problem of taking care of Canada's returned soldiers and other British and allied soldiers is upon the Dominion Government that has charge of this country's tariif policy and upon the Ontario Government that can make or mar Ontario's power policy. Is Canada to have a tariff policy that will compel the men who have saved Canada to leave the country they have defended at the risk of their lives and seek employment under a foreign flag? I want to see the tariff against Germany and Austria put up so high that we will never see another dollar's worth of German goods in this country. I want to see the tariff against all neutral nations so adjusted that Canadian soldiers and British soldiers and allied soldiers will find industrial employ- ment in Canada, because many of these soldiers are not ambitious to undertake agri- cultural employment and have no aptitudes in that direction. (7) ADVANCED HYDRO POLICY. The only movement to deal with this returned soldier problem in a large way is Sir Adam Beck's movement to establish a 1,000,000 horse-power source of electricity at Niagara Falls and another 1,000,000 horse-power source of electricity on the St. RECEPTWS, Tlii:.\TMi:ST AM) RE-EUl CATION 795 Lawrence River. Sir Adam Beck estimates that these two sources of electrical energy will give Ontario power equal to the power produced by the consumption of 44,000,000 tons of coal per annum. A policy that can endow Ontario with an advantage equal to the output of 44,000,000 tons of coal per annum means employment for the returned soldier and means prosperous industry and agriculture in this Province. Canada and Ontario and Toronto are all in the same boat, the problem of taking care of the returned soldier, the problem of making the most of our obligations to the returned soldiers is the problem of making the most of our opportunities. (8) GKKAT WATEKWAVS — INLAM>-=-WANTED. Deepen the St. Lawrence waterways and complete your new Welland Canal. Let us have ocean shipping from Liverpool to Fort William, and build a great national highway from coast to coast. Help Sir Adam Beck to build his Hydro Eadials and establish sources of 2,000,000 horse-power of electrical energy in Ontario. Then we will have begun the work of making this Province the home of 0,000,000 instead of 2,500,000 people. And then we will have begun to solve the whole problem of the returned soldiers. The only way the problem can be solved is by the vision of our leaders, the strength and unity of their followers in working out a policy that will prove how in some small way the civilian people of Canada can be worthy of the men who have fought, bled or died for them, and that the civilian people of Canada can approach in peace the greatness that the soldiers of Canada have achieved in war. (9) RE VOCATIONAL TRAINING. Canada's army is a civilian one and has had very rough work in Flanders and France, mostly in the country. Many of the men are tired of country life, and after the war is over they will all want to flock to the cities. We have had evidence of this since the first returned soldiers came home. The returned soldier is only human, and we must not forget all he has gone through. I do not believe 5 per cent of them will want to engage in farm pursuits. In the first place, before the war, rural Ontario was depopulated 500,000 in ten years. One of the main reasons for the under- production in Ontario is the fact that there are no adequate conveniences on the farms today. The Province is without a proper system of good roads, Hydro radials, Hydro telephones and cheap light and power. Sir Adam Beck should be encouraged to bring the boon of cheap light and power to every farm in the Province, with its attending conveniences. If civilians will not stay on the farms, owing to the lack of con- veniences, how does the Government propose to get returned soldiers to stay there, after all they have gone through for the good of the country? Other classes of labour should bo secured for farm work from those "who have done nothing in this war. " Vocational training " is a very high-sounding name and the theory of it is all right, but it will be found that when the great body of soldiers come home, it will be of little effect, unless the country is prepared to keep the men on the pay-rolls at full pay until they learn some other suitable pursuit. It may, however, in special cases, be of some advantage in the larger cities. (10) A SURVEY. The Federal Government, with the assistance of the municipalities, should pre- pare forthwith a survey with the names of those on active service overseas, their units, residence and former employment. I think the municipalities can act in the matter for the Government, with the assistance of the various "Military Divisions. The old employer of each soldier can be approached and asked what he is prepared to do for his old employee when he comes back from the front, and under what conditions he left 796 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETUHNED SOLDIERS his old eniploynient. :uul in that way each municipality will know how many men are unprovided for. A local publicity campaign in each municipality along these lines would do much to further encourage the old employers to do their duty. The time to do this is now or never, and if some drastic action is not taken at once the soldier problem will get beyond us. In actual practice it will be found that the larger muni- cipalities will be a dumping ground for most of our returned soldiers after the war, and if the Federal Government does not cope with the situation at once it will get beyond us, and the result will be that the municipalities will have to bear the burden of the whole matter. It is a most difficult problem to deal with, and one requiring the united effort of the Governments of the Dominion, the provinces and the munici- palities.- In this connection I may say that the city of Toronto has appointed a commis- sion of five, consisting of the mayor, two controllers, our city treasurer and the com- missioner of works, "to report on preparing Toronto to meet conditions after tho war," and also to take care of the returned soldiers. This commission is meeting weekly in order to be ready for the declaration of peace. (11) THE MANUFACTURERS. An educational campaign should be undertaken with regard to those soldiers who are employed by the manufacturers of Canada. Many of the manufacturers of Canada are reducing the pay of their old employees after they come back from the war because the returned soldier has not one hundred per cent of efficiency. It will be a decided injustice for them to deal with the returned soldier in this m'anner, because if it were not for the soldiers the Germans might be here and there might not be any factories. They should be encouraged to do their whole duty to the returned soldiers, as many prominent manufacturers are doing by paying them their full wages. They should not require one hundred per cent efficiency as before the war in order to secure for the soldier the pay he got before the war. (12) KEEP SOLDIERS ON PAY-ROLLS. The returned soldiers should be kept on the country's pay-rolls for two years after the war, until industrial conditions readjust themselves and until the disloca- tions brought about by the war are solved. (13) CONTINUE PATRIOTIC FUND AFTER THE WAR. The Patriotic Fund should be continued for one or two years after the war to assist the relatives of the returned soldiers, until the men are placed in permanent positions and have a seasonable chance to recover from the severe work they have been in. They should not be asked to start work too early, and those unable to work have won a well-earned holiday at the expense of the country for a reasonable period of six months or a year after the war. (14) RE PENSIONS. More liberal pensions should be given all round. The maintenance of the returned soldier and his family should be a first charge on the country for the services rendered to civilization. There should be a revision of the scale all round with greater liberality. While this will cost a lot of monej' it must not be forgotten that Canada's Army is a civilian army, and the men in the ranks should have equality of treatment with the officers and the same rate of pay should apply to one and all. If necessary -^■me revenue should be provided to meet these pension charges by a Federal tax for a l)(*ri()d of ten year- after the war on those who have not enlisted and are fit. The RECEPTION, TliEATMEXT AXD RE-EDUCATIO\ 797 National Service Record could be used as a basis and a Federal tax should be imposed on shirkers for the benefit and the care of returned soldiers and their families. The country expects that Parliament will ac^ liberally towards its returned heroes. (15) THE HOSPITAL WORK. In my opinion the Hospitals Commission should be abolished, and their duties transferred to a department of the Government. There were too many commissions appointed in time of peace, and this policy seems to have been continued unnecessarily in war time. The tendency of these commissions is to shift responsibility from the Government, and the returned soldier should be able to deal directly with the Govern- ment, ^lany of these commissions are out of touch with the municipalities. I do not intend this in any spirit of criticism of the splendid and public-spirited men who compose the Hospitals Commission, who have on the whole done grood work, but many of them have had no practical experience in hospital work, and some of the officials are more or less amateurs. As everybody knows, the hospital business is highly technical work and requires the best brains that the country has in this connection. I may also say that the Patriotic Fund, and in addition, the care of the wounded and missing soldiers overseas should never have been left to private organizations, but should have been assumed by the Government itself. The soldier who is a prisoner of war should not be left to the mercy of private organizations, but should be a direct charge on the Government. (16) RE COXVALESCEXT HOMES. The wounded soldiers and those convalescent should be housed in the best build- ings in the country, and not in some of the ramshackle buildings secured by the Hos- pitals Commission. The men should be kept in their own home towns and not moved to outside places, where they have no friends. It has already proved a burden on the men and on their families also, owing to the expense. Public buildings of all kinds, where necessary, should be commandeered by the Government, including University, Civic, Y.M.C.A. and other buildings, many of them exempt from taxation. Notwith- standing the fa^t that the city of Toronto otfered to give the Hospitals Commission the use of new schools and dozens of other proper buildings in the city, they have opened hospitals at Whitby and Guelph, to which hospitals the men object to go. Thousands of these disabled men are in England to-day who should be brought home to be with their families. There is abundance of accommodation for them here. K the Hospitals Commission do not do better, this problem will get beyond them and the Government will be blamed for it. As I said before, it should be a department of the Government and not left to a commission who have no responsibility. The use of Sunday Schools, and, if necessary in some localities, some of the churches (as in England and France) and the best buildings in the land should be procured for the men, and not unsanitary old buildings. In Ontario many good hotels are closing because of the new law — many of them are comfortable homes well furnished, and the Hospitals Commission has declined them. (17) FREE TRANSPORTATION-. Returned soldiers should have the right to travel free on all electric railways in tlie ])rovince. ^lany of these roads got subsidies and bonuses and obtained their charters for notliing from the municipalities, and they should be required for all time to carry our returned soldiers free. The city of Toronto's own civic car lines, since the war started, have allowed them to ride free. If public ownership does this, so should private ownership. A one cent per mile fare, if not free transportation, should be obtained for returned soldiers from the steam railwav throughout Canada, under certain fair and reasonable 798 SPECIAL COMM ITTKE—C.K.F.—RETVRKED SOLDIERS conditions. These roads were largely built by the credit of the country. They have all secured large subsidies and cash grants and should be patriotic enough to do something for the returned soldiers. They should be allowed to travel free. This rule should also be applied where applicable at certain times to all public amusements, for certain performances during the war, and for a year or two afterwards. I may say that some of the theatres in Toronto have been patriotic enough in this connec- tion. I can also speak of the very patriotic stand of the Toronto Baseball Club, the Canadian National Exhibition and the Arena Rink here in this way. (18) HONOUR THE HEROES. There is a lack of proper respect shown to returned soldiens. The school children should be educated to honour them, applaud them and salute them. They should have precedence on all public occasions. Should be given seats in street cars and other public places. It is deplorable to see so many young men who are slackers riding around in automobiles who pass soldiers on the street who have been through amputations and decline to pick them up and give them a ride. The public generally should be educated in this connection and a campaign of education is necessary. Much has been accom- plished in England, France and Russia in this connection and Canada should get into line also, and not lag behind. (19) BETTER TRANSPORTATION AVANTED. Better accommodation should be provided on the ocean trip back from St. John and Halifax to Toronto for the returned soldiers. I knew of a case of a young soldier who contracted tuberculosis 18 months ago while crossing the ocean steerage. He was buried in Toronto and was a deplorable sight. The best Canada can give is none too good. They should not have to come in on regular trains which are often several hours late, but should travel in comfort and on special trains. Civilians at home should do without special trains and they should be utilized as far as possible for the returned soldiers, where they travel in large numbers. I desire and I deem it my duty to here publicly thank Brigadier-General Biggar for all he has done to improve the transports and trains, and the zeal and fidelity and interest he has shown in our heroes. Auto- mobiles should be provided for them at various depots. It is too bad the various auto- mobile clubs in the country are not responding as well as they might, although some of them have done pretty well. The various clubs should be organized to meet the returned soldiers at the station and drive them to the hospital or homes. In the sum- mer time they do not do badly, but in the winter time hardly anything is done in this connection. (20) RELATIVES OF RETURNED MEN. Some additional measure should be taken to assist the relatives of the returned soldiers at various stations in meeting their men. Better accommodation should be given. More liberal leave should be given and delays between the seaboard and Ontario towns should be cut down. The relatives of the soldiers should be allowed to see them at will and they should be treated generously. Conveyances should be at the depot for the soldier and his relatives, and where possible breakfast should be given. Receptions in question take too long as many of the men are waiting for their breakfasts and often the trains are very late. These matters should be better regulated. (21) PREFERENCE IN EMPLOYMENT. All public positions should be given to returned soldiers only. Those who are occupying public positions and have failed to do their duty during the war should vacate them at the war's conclusion, if they have been eligible for service. If neces- sary to some extent at least some should make way for the returned soldiers. At the RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATlo:s 799 present time the returned soldier is getting very largely only menial positions, when the best should be given him, including all vacancies in the Senate, judgeships and the higher positions in the civil service in all its branches, by the Dominion and Federal Governments and municipalities. The City of Toronto is engaging no one except returned soldiers, and we intend to continue this policy. (22) GREAT WAR VETERANS. • The Government should itself organize the Great War Veteran's' Association. The Great War Veterans' present organization could be utilized in this connection and tlie Government should deal directly with the soldiers through this Great War Veterans' Association. In this way an organization similar to the Grand Army of the Kepublic could be formed, with Federal, provincial and Civil help and assistance. The returned soldier himself also can do more than any other agency if utilized and given a chance to solve the difficulty of the returned soldier problem. In the City of Toronto the Great War Veterans have a club house. The city has contributed $5,000 towards its expenses, and we propose to utilize this agency as a civic bureau to assist, aid and help returned soldiers. The first duty of the municipality is to look after its own soldiers, with whatever federal and provincial help they can get, it should be a direct municipal charge as well as a federal one, as this problem is three-fold, and can only be satisfactorily worked out by the Federal and Provincial Governments and the city working harmoniously in united effort for the mutual benefit of the soldier. (23) SOLDIERS AND TAXATION. Returned soldiers should be exempt from business assessment and income tax for a period of two or three years after the war, and while on active service, if unable to pay his municipal taxes, should be given time until after the war. While this depletes municipal revenues the deficiency could be capitalized with short-termed bonds of five or ten years. Many of our returned heroes are in arrears of taxes on their homes, and Toronto has been giving them time — although in some places some have had the bailiff put in on them for arrears while absent. There should be a Provincial law to stop this and a law passed to postpone payment for those in default of payment of moneys overdue on mortgages (held on property on which the soldier actually resides.) The power of sale in these mortgages should not be enforced for twelve months after the war, and the Statute Law should be so amended. (24) PATRIOTIC FUND. The Separation allowance should be increased and the Patriotic allowance in some cases. Owing to the hard rules established by the Patriotic Fund in some small num- ber of cases injustice has been done, although the grand work done on the whole by the Fund has been exempt from criticism, and properly should be, owing to the heroic work this organization has done. I cannot speak too highly of them, but I often have cases of hardship brought to my attention, and there should be some way of dealing with these special cases by the Government if the Patriotic Fund cannot entertain them. (25) DELIVERY OF TELEGR^VMS. I think it would be well to arrange for the municipalities, the Great War Veterans, or the clergy to receive all telegrams from Ottawa notifying the relatives of soldiers killed in action. Often these telegrams come in late at night and the method of their delivery causes hardship in breaking the sad news. 800 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETUI^NED SOLDIERS (20) THE UNFIT IICTURNED. Could not some better system of medical inspection be adopted? Last Sunday morning half of those returning were those who had passed as medically fit here, but were rejected in England. Some of them lost their civil positions and could have been utilized in making munitions and other war work. Many of these men, I understand, will not get pensions, as they are returned as unfit, and it is a great injustice to them, as they have to start civil life all over again, and many of them have no funds. In this connection some very deserving cases have come tinder my notice since the war started; their families also suffer accordingly. (27) CENSUS OF NATIVE BORN. Could not a census be taken or a survey made by ,the Government of the birth place of those serving in the Canadian Expeditionary Force and totaled up so as to show the net results by provinces of the native-born and the British-born, and other component parts of Canada's Expeditionary Force. (28) NEW UNIFORMS OR SUITS. Some of those who come back complain about their clothing. I understand the Government give the men a proper suit of clothing at Quebec or $13, or the equivalent in money. Many of those who are now home have no overcoats, and some of them come in at North Toronto without a bag or kit for their baggage. Some complain that they are held too long at Quebec at the discharge depot, and that they have no proper entertainment. In this connection it is only fair to say that I have heard a great many others speak fairly well of the entertainment there. I think the men ought not to have to buy another suit of clothes, but should be given one free. I understand that the regulations call for this, but the public criticise the policy of having wounded heroes going around the streets, many of them without proper clothing. It may be that they prefer to get the money and utilize it in other ways, but I think free suits . might be given them if at all possible. (29) MORE HOSPITAL ACCOMMODATION NEEDED HERE. There is a lack of proper accommodation at Toronto here. A case in point came to my knowledge the other day. Three men bound for London took the wrong train and were returned here, and it was very difficult for me to get them into the Spadina Hospital. Accommodation should be ready for several thousands, and the Hospitals Commission should keep in advance instead of behind the accommodation. The City is willing to assist the Commission to secure all the buildings they require in Toronto, and many suitable places are already available. (30) Return slackers. The Government of the United States should be asked to deport slackers as undesir- ables and return them to Canada. Many have left Canada for the States to escape war duties. These men should be pressed into the Canadian Expeditionary Force if fit. (31) preferred CLASS. Eelatives of those who have lost their lives in action should be properly compen- sated. Grants of money and active aid should be given them, also liberal pensions, and they should be in a preferred class. The returned soldiers, and some representatives of the families of those who have lost their lives, should be appointed to the Senate. 1 RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 801 (32) ALIEN ENEMIES. The returned soldiers expect the Government to do something to disfranchise alien enemies who have now the franchise in Canada. "Why should an alien enemy's vote be equal to a returned soldier's? I would disfranchise all those alien enemy voters in Canada who have not resided in Canada for twenty-five years. (33) 'delays returning. There is considerable criticism among the returned soldiers about the delay in getting back from England. Many of these men who have been wounded and are still in England should be brought back, as many are unfit for further service. Returned soldiers who have been wounded three or four times should not be sent back to the front. Others should take their places. With so many slackers around, why should men who have been wounded three or four times go back? (34) officers get preference. There is also considerable criticism, about bringing home able-bodied officers because they will not revert in rank, and while it is difficult for the men in the ranks to get leave, some of these officers, who have never been to the front, can get home. (35) He UNIFORMS. I suggest, although it may not be possible to work out, that a different uniform should be provided for the members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force and those who are serving in the Militia Department and its branches throughout Canada on home service — who are fit for overseas service. There are dozens of young officers in Canada's Permanent Force in Canada kept here against their will when they should be at the front. (36) close schools for officers. The pi-esent Officers' Training Schools for Artillery, Infantry and other branches of the service should all be closed up and vacancies for officers given to returned soldiers. No further courses should be opened in Canada — there are plenty of avail- able returned soldiers. All of which is respectfully submitted. T. L. CHURCH, Mayor. Mayor's Office, Toronto, March 20, 1917. Submitted by Mayor Church. Exhibit No. 2. 28277—61 802 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS EXHIBIT No. 3. (Suhmitted hy Col. F. W. Marlow). Treatment and prophylaxis of Venereal Diseases in respect to the problem of Returned Soldiers. In view of the importance of this aspect of the returned soldier problem, it is recommended that special consideration be given it along the lines suggested below : — 1. Care should be taken to see that all entries regarding periods of stay in hospitals are carefully made on the " medical history " sheets of all soldiers, 2. In the case of all soldiers suffering from venereal disease careful details regard- ing treatment and progress should be prepared by the overseas medical service to be forwarded with the soldiers' documents when invalided or otherwise sent home. Special care should be taken to have concise entries made as to the dates and results of any bacteriological or blood examination. 3. Careful following up of all cases of venereal disease by the overseas Canadian Medical Authorities so as to prevent their being invalided or otherwise sent home to Canada without knowledge of their condition on departure. 4. Careful examination of all soldiers embarking for Canada, as late as possible, prior to embarkation, for the detection of venereal disease. 5. Re-examination of all soldiers while " en route " for Canada, for the detection of venereal disease. This should be done on the third day after embarkation and again on the day prior to expected disembarkation. 6. All soldiers known to have venereal disease prior to embarkation for Canada, and all others detected with such disease while " en route " should be duly listed and handed over at the point of disembarkation by the officer in charge of the party to the officer in charge of disembarkation, in order that they may be properly dealt with by the medical authorities. Y. All invalided soldiers undergoing treatment in military hospitals or convales- cent hospitals should up to the time of their discharge from the army be subjected to examination at least once in two weeks at an unexpected time for the detection of venereal disease. 8. It should be made obligatory on the part of all soldiers suffering from venereal disease to undergo satisfactory treatment by the medical authorities until pronounced cured. Failure to do so should be regarded as an offence for which suitable punishment should be awarded. Under no circumstances should a soldier's refusal to submit to treatment for venereal or other communicable disease secure his release from the army. 9. All soldiers suffering from venereal disease should be treated as hospital patients. 10. Special facilities for the disposal and treatment in transit, or more perman- ently, of soldiers suffering from venereal disease should be arranged for at Halifax, St. John, and Quebec, the three points of disembarkation. 11. Special hospital arrangements for bacteriological and blood examinations and for treatment of all classes of venereal disease should be put in effect at such centres as Montreal, Toronto, and Winnipeg and wherever else might appear advisable in order to fairly meet the demands of the problem of detection, treatment and prevention of dissemination. 12. Regulations regarding " hospital stoppages " in respect to venereal diseases should be amended in such a way that soldiers reporting exposure to disease or early RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 803 signs of approaching disease and who undergo satisfactory and completed treatment and otherwise observe military discipline, will not be subjected to hospital stoppages of pay- Soldiers whose discipline is good and who are discovered to be suffering from latent syphilis and where apparently no attempt to conceal the disease has been made should not be subjected to stoppages of pay while undergoing treatment. The application of hospital stoppages of pay should be reserved as a form of punishment in cases in which there has been a failure to report early, an attempt to conceal the disease, refusal of satisfactory treatment, or breaches of discipline while undergoing treatment. Signed, F. W. MAELOW, Colonel, A.M.C. March y, 1917, at Toronto. ACADEMY OF MEDICINE, Toronto, 13 Queen's Park. A special meeting of the Academy of Medicine, Toronto, will be held at 13 Queen's Park, on Friday evening, March 9, at 8.30 o'clock, for the consideration of the subject of venereal diseases and proposed legislation appertaining thereto. JOHN FEKGUSON, President. J. H. ELLIOTT, Hon. Secretary. Resolution passed by the Academy of Medicine of Toronto, on March 9, 1917. Moved by Dr. Charles J. Hastings, seconded by Dr. Edmund E. King, That the Academy of Medicine of Toronto, in general meeting for discussion of the subject of venereal diseases with a view to securing legislation affecting the treatment and prevention of dissemination of such diseases, endorse the principles involved in the memoranda prepared by Colonel Marlow for presentation to the Parliamentary Com- mittee on Returned Soldiers in respect to treatment and prophylaxis of venereal diseases. 28277— 51i 804 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS EXHIBIT No. 4. Remarks and Suggestions, contained in Eeport, dated 24th November, 1915, respecting the medical aspect of work at the Discharge Depot, Quebec, etc. — Submitted by Col. F. W. Marlow. Eemarks. 1. A workable and probably satisfactory system was put into action at Quebec, and if the Discharge Depot is retained there, the system can be elaborated and modified to meet varying requirements, and possible contingencies. 2. The desirability of maintaining a permanent Discharge Depot at Quebec is open to question, particularly as ocean traffic is closed there for a considerable period of each year, during which time it would be necessary to transport invalids from other points of disembarkation to Quebec, to be dealt with by the Depot. 3. Approximately 75 per cent of invalids returning are likely to be benefited by treatment, and as their discharge cannot consistently be arranged until they are reported upon later by Divisional or District Medical Boards, the proceedings of the Boards at Quebec in such cases are of no practical value, provided that copies of the proceedings of the Overseas Boards, or extracts therefrom, are available for reference. 4. Many cases appearing before Medical Boards require special examinations and prolonged observation before satisfactory opinions regarding their estimated disability can be made. 5. In a large percentage of cases, the opinions of Medical Boards, given without special and repeated observation, do not furnish sufficient reliable data upon which to base claims relating to disability. 6. Medical Boards held at Divisional or District Headquarters, would have the advantage of time and various methods of investigation unavailable at the Discharge Depot at Quebec. Y. At Divisional or District Headquarters there are medical officers of high stand- ing in the profession, whose services would be available to act on Medical Boards. The most notable exception in this respect is Quebec, where, at present, three of the most efficient officers on duty under the A.D.M.S., 5th Division, have been temporarily detailed from the 2nd Division, viz.. Major Winters, Captain Carrick, and Captain Eyres. 8. To have all invalids seen by a permanent Medical Board at Quebec might mean a greater amount of uniformity in the proceedings, but when large numbers arrive at once, it is most unwise to detain them at Quebec sufficiently long to be passed by one Board. 9. All Medical Board work in connection with returned invalids could be more satisfactorily carried out divisionally. Adoption of such a plan would facilitate early transportation of the invalids to centres adjacent to their homes, and so eliminate many discomforts, and would afford the divisional authorities an opportunity of becom- ing conversant with all cases returning to the division. Besides, it is certain that with time and special means of investigation at hand Divisional or District Medical Boards should be able to give more intelligent opinions in the matter of a man's disability, and to make more consistent recommendations on which claims for compensation or pension might be based. * RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 805 MEMORANDA OF SUGGESTIONS FOR DEALING WITH INVALIDED SOLDIERS FROM OVERSEAS. (By Lieut. -Colonel Marlow, A.DM.8., 2nd Division.) MEN INVALIDED FROM ENGLAND. 1. Should be sent to Canada at the earliest possible time consistent with sailing accommodation. 2. Care should be taken to have all papers affecting the men forwarded with them, especially the Medical Boards and last pay certificates. 3. At least two copies of proceedings of any Medicel Board should accompany men's papers, one for divisional or district headquarters, and one for transmitting with other documents to Militia Headquarters. AT POINT OF DISEMBARKATION. 1. A distributing depot for invalided soldiers should be established to take place of so-called discharge depot. 2. On arrival, any men requiring hospital treatment should be sent to riiilitary hospitals at once, or in the absence of such, to a civil hospital, and be under supervi- sion of the A.D.M.S. of the division in which the depot is located, to be forwarded later to divisions or districts. 3. All other men should be grouped according to the division or district to which they are to be returned, and their accompanying papers should be similarly grouped. 4. Medical boards at point of disembarkation should be dispensed with. They detain the men unnecessarily and in 75 per cent of cases serve no useful purpose, in as much as they do not provide the Militia Department with information that will allow a man's case to be consistently terminated without reference to a further medical board. 5. When men and papers are sorted divisionally, nominal rolls in triplicate for each division or district should be prepared. These should, give the number, rank, name, unit and address of each man. One copy should be sent to Militia Headquart- ers, one retained at the discharge depot, and the other should be forwarded to the headquarters of the division or district concerned. All last pay certificates should be forwarded to Militia Headquarters with such nominal rolls, if the practice of paying all invalided soldiers from headquarters is continued, or to the division or district headquarters, if arrangements are made to pay the men divisionally, until discharged or pensioned. 6. While at the depot, the men's pay to date might be adjusted by paying them a small amount in cash, and forwarding cheques for balances to divisional head- quarters, along with statements of their accounts. 7. As soon as possible, men should be forwarded to divisional or district head- quarters full particulars of departure, route, and expected time of arrival being wired to officers commanding divisions or districts. 8. The men's papers should be forwarded to the officers commanding the divisions or districts forthwith. 9. All men proceeding singly or in small groups should have written instructions as to the proper place to report themselves on arrival at divisional or district head- quarters. 10. Large groups of men should be accompanied by a proper escort, whose duty it should be to hand them over to the proper divisional or district authorities. Selec- tion of non-conmiissioned officers from the returned men to keep the others in order would not likely give good results. Ordinarily the N.C.O.'s are the most disabled of the lot, are broken in spirit and incapable of maintaining discipline amongst other ranks with whom they have been so closely associated in hospitals during their illnes!» 806 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— G.E.F.—RETUWNED SOLDIERS 11. A special train carrying invalided soldiers and requiring more than 24 hours to reach its destination, should invariably be accompanied by a medical officer. 12. Undischarged men should not be provided with civilian clothing. AT DIVISIONAL OR DISTRICT HEADQUARTERS. 1. Adequate arrangements should be made at divisional or district headquarters for receiving invalided soldiers, and caring for them in such a way as will aflford them such treatment as will allow their cases to receive every consideration, and also permit of them being disposed of intelligently, and without undue delay, and in a manner consistent with the service they have rendered and the disability they have sustained. 2. There should be in each division or district, a central clearing military con- valescent home, together with suitable smaller convalescent homes as required. 3. The provision, furnishing, maintenance, and general welfare of these homes should be in the hands of the Military Hospitals Commission, aided by voluntary aid committees. 4. All medical arrangements should be under control of the A.D.M.S. DIVISION OR DISTRICTS. 5. If considered necessary for the convoy of invalided soldiers to their proper destinations, or for the maintenance of order and discipline in and about the homes, officers commanding divisions or districts should be authorized to supply guards or picquets for such duties, 6. On arrival at the Central Home, invalids should be formally admitted and checked over, and, where circumstances warrant the procedure, might be given passes for a stated time in each case to visit their friends at home, at the termination of which they must report back to the home for observation and treatment, or other dis- position of their cases as may be deemed best. Men, and particularly single men of uncertain or undesirable addresses, should not be allowed out on pass until their cases are investigated and their requirements determined. 7. There should be a medical officer A.M.C. in charge of the Central Clearing Home, whose duties should include: 1. Attending all ordinary medical needs of men in the home. 2. Administration of the home from a military aspect. 3. Care and compilation of all progress notes concerning the men from the time of their arrival until their disposition is recommended and arranged. 8. As such central homes should be the bureau of information concerning all invalided soldiers, arrangements should be made for a filing system subsidiary to that in divisional or district headquarters. All reports from smaller homes in the division or district should be transmitted through the central home. 9. In the matter of staffs, arrangements should be made, and can readily be made, with civilian practitioners, living at divisional or district headquarters, with specialists' standing in their various departments, to attend in the same manner as in all large general hospitals, without expense to the public, except under very unusual circum- stances. Such men would consider it a privilege to serve in this way. At smaller homes a medical officer A.M.C, if available, should visit and furnish a report in accordance with requirements. 10. In the central homes the cases should be carefully checked over by the staff, and those who appear to have no disability resulting from service should be brought before a medical board, in order that their discharge may be carried out promptly, the proceedings being forwarded with all other papers concerning them to Militia Headquarters. Cases in which there appears to be permanent disability, the result of service, and which is not likely to be lessened within a year by treatment, should also be brought before a board and reported to Militia Headquarters promptly, with all attending papers, in order that their peufions may be arranged and their discharge RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 807 carried out. Cases requiring observation and likely to be benefited by rest or treat- ment should have the previous estimation of their disability, and the recommendation of the Overseas Medical Board checked over, but need not be brought before a further medical board until such time as it appears they can be discharged without disability the result of service, and consequently able to earn a full livelihood, or, on the other hand, it is determined that there is some permanent disability such as will constitute a claim for pension. At such times the board might be held, disability intelligently estimated, discharge recommended and the proceedings, with all attending papers, be forwarded to Militia Headquarters. 11. All invalided soldiers should be taught to realize that they are subject to military discipline until such time as their discharge is carried out, and should not be allowed to absent themselves from any military hospital or convalescent home except on pass. 12. From the Central Convalescent Home cases may be discharged to the smaller homes, to sanitaria, or such other places as is deemed advisable. When no treatment is required and a man's home is considered a suitable place for him to convalesce, and his progress is not likely to be retarded by his being there and his habits at home can be checked periodically, such cases should be allowed to go home, but only on passes, covering a definite period. On the expiration of their passes these men should report at the home to be checked over by the staff. If their progress is satisfactory their passes may be renewed, and if not they should be re-admitted to the home. When deemed advisable, they should be brought before a medical board for disposition. Men on pass, who are reported to be misbehaving themselves, and so possibly retarding their progress, should be brought back to the home at once, and be kept under super- vision. Failure to report in accordance with orders, or misbehaviour in a convalescent home, should be dealt with in accordance with headquarters instructions in this regard. , Such an " out-patient " system is capable of expansion to any degree, and while still keeping the men under observation and control, would avoid the necessity of pro- viding homes for men who can convalesce satisfactorily in their own homes, and woxild permit of their being dealt with in a consistent manner and satisfactory, not only to the men, but to the country for whom they have served. SPECIAL COMMITTEE— G.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS EXHIBIT No. 5. {Submitted by the Medical Superintendent mid the Secretary of the Milifiary Hospitals Commission.) TABLE SHOWING ACCOMMODATION AVAILABLE, IN-PATIENTS, VACANT BEDS, AND OUT-PATIENTS AT QUARTEKLY PERIODS SINCE APRIL 1, 1916. FIGURES RELATING TO SANATORIA ARE INCLUDED FROM OCTOBER 1, 1916. Out-patients figured in italics when their number exceeded the number of available beds. - — » 1 c8 1 1 1 J ho 1 i 1 1 .2 > J 100 58 42 Total. 1916. April 1 . . . Accomiriodation Tn-patients.. A 474 231 243 43 474 145 329 64 609 230 269 39 621 302 319 60 894 586 308 67 B 65 34 31 7 65 31 34 6 105 65 40 105 105 ' "33 114 107 7 357 157 92 65 15 157 64 93 49 352 144 20s 52 374 137 237 144 350 221 129 84 D 200 108 92 65 165 110 55 34 375 313 62 215 618 454 164 54 1,186 774 412 275 F 165 if^ 101 111 54 195 52 143 42 188 126 62 59 210 167 43 91 G 105 83 22 80 145 140 5 145 235 91 141 214 235 147 88 230 263 199 64 288 H 70 14 56 ■■■■70 62 8 14 70 33 37 60 70 34 36 90 96 92 4 117 I 100 41 59 1,446 717 Vacant beds 719 Out-patients Accommodation 311 Julyl.... 100 47 53 100 58 42 1,441 711 Vacant beds 730 366 October 1. Accommodation In-patients.. 120 99 21 410 175 235 4 400 178 222 105 132 77 55 175 170 5 81 353 292 61 88 2,193 1,214 979 622 2,796 1,650 1917. January 1. Vacant beds Out-patients Accommodation In-patients.. Vacant beds 1,146 March 8.. Out-patients Accommodation In-patients Vacant beds 765 3,866 2,616 1,250 Out-patients 1,462 MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS. City Hall, Toronto. Council Chamber, Thursday, March 22, 1917. The Special Committee on Keturned Soldiers spent the morning of Thursday, 22nd March, in visiting various institutions devoted to the care of disabled returned soldiers. The places visited were: — Spadina Military Hospitals Commission, (Old Knox College). Central Technical School, Lippincott and Harbord Streets. •■ Central Military Hospitals Commission, (Old Bishop Strachan School, 35 College Street). Artificial Limb Institute, (Orthopaedic Hospital, 100 Bloor Street West). Booth Memorial, St. Clair Avenue "West. Base Hospital, Gerrard Street East. 809 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. City Hall, Toronto, Council Chamber, Thursday, March 22, 1917. The Committee met at 2.30 o'clock, the Chairman, Sir Herbert Ames, presiding. Members Present: Sir Herbert Ames, Chairman, Mr. Bennett (Calgary), Hon. Charles Marcil, Mr. McCurdy, Mr. Middlebro, Hon. Charles Murphy, Mr. Pardee, Mr. Ross (Middlesex), Mr. Sutherland, all of the Commons Committee; Brigadier-General Mason and Senator Ross of the Senate Committee. Sergt.-Major J. Rowe Whittom and Willum E. Turley, president and secretary, respectively of the Great War Veterans Association of Canada, Toronto District, recalled and further examined. By Mr. Pardee: Q. You told us yesterday that your first cause of complaint was a lack of arranging satisfactorily about your pay and maintenance; the second we took up was as to pensions; now, what other complaints are there besides those two — if not complaints, what would you like to have remedied? Mr. Whittox : With reference to the military authorities, or civilian employ- ment, you mean? Q. I mean as to the lot, generally, of the returned soldier? — A. I should like to see the manufacturers take on a man discharged from the service, at the union rate of wages, irrespective of the pension he gets. Q. We spoke about that yesterday; I do not know whether this Committee can get you such a thing or not; that is more a matter of internal economy with the manufacturers themselves; I suppose we cannot make them pay what they do not want to pay; but leaving aside that, what else is there? Mr. Turley : We were speaking yesterday of the gratuity system. I had a man call in to see me this morning, who had no knowledge of the Parliamentary Com- mittee being in session, so this is not a prepared or stated case. This man received a letter from the Board of Pensions reading: — " I have the honour, by direction of the Board of Pensions Commissioners for Canada, to enclose herewith cheque for $25, being a gratuity awarded you by the board under paragraph 13 of the pension regulations. This is a final settlement in respect of your disability." No mention of any possible court of appeal. Q. How much was that man's disability? — A. I am coming to that. From the finding of the board his disability was this: — "General weakness; pains in arms and legs; neurasthenia, following operation for hemerroid contracted on active service." The man concerned is George J. Slack, who was a year at the front. He is obviously in a weakened condition; it does not need a medical man to see that. He is discharged, and informed that he has no further claim for greatly weakened condition after [Ser&t.-Major J. Rowe Whitton.] 811 812 8TECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS receipt of $25 gratuity. There is no intimation conveyed in these official communica- tions that he has any place of appeal or any means of appeal. This is in final settle- ment. Q. Who is that from ?— ^A. The Board of Pensions Commissioners. Q. By whom is it signed? — A. F. J. McAland. Q. That is illustrative of what you consider to be an injustice of the gratuity system? — A. Yes. By Mr. Middlebro: Q. And also some notice of the fact that he has an appeal?— A. Some notification that if you are not satisfied with this award you have your court of appeal through such and such a channel. By Mr. Pardee: Q. That still relates to gratuity, pension, and so on; what else would you suggest? — A. There are complaints regarding the case of a man coming up for readjustment for pension. This case is referred to a specialist. Specialists never fail — I have yet to hear of a case where a man referred to a specialist was not reported to improve as a result of that — and as a natural outcome of that his original pension in most cases would be reduced. There was also something else which might have been a mere coincidence but back in the early part of the summer an increased scale of pensions was awarded. Every man I have heard who received any notification regarding that pension was informed at the same time that he had been lowered in grade. With regard to myself, I was a two-fifths pensioner under the old clause, in receipt of $14 per month. I received an intimation that under the new regulation my pension had been increased, and would now be $8 a month, but the information contained was a decrease instead of an increase. That was the wording of the circular, and I had heard of many such cases. You must remember a man does not talk about an increase as he does about a decrease. There may have been an actual increase made of pension. I have not heard of one. I have heard of many who received an intimation of an increase, and at the same time they were notified of an actual decrease, so that the increase of the scale of pensions was more apparent than real. Mr. Whitton : A man going before the Pensions Board, or the medical officer who has to certify as to his capacity, going before the board, the man is put down in a certain class, say two-fifths. He goes in front of three more medical officers here, who examine him and O.K. the previous medical officers' decision. He is awarded the pen- sion in that class. After hearing from Ottawa, in nine cases out of ten, we find the pension has been lowered one class lower. Where a man is recommended for two-fifths, by the time he gets his reply from Ottawa it is generally a quarter. The Ottawa officials do not see that man at all. Mr. Pardee: That is the pension man. Mr. Whitton: That is the pensions people. Mr. Hurley: There is another point. The Board of Pensions regulations, as amended on December 12th, paragraph 7, reads as follows: — " All pensions awarded to members of the force shall be determined by the disability of the applicant without reference to his occupation prior to enlist- ment." Paragraph 8 reads: — " Each case shall be subject to review at the end of the year from the time when the pension is first granted, except in those cases where the disability ia obviously permanent." [Sergt.-Major J. Rowe Whitton.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 813 And then there shall be no further review. In spite of that assurance that the man's earning powers do not sway the finding of the medical board, it is a fact that a good deal of stress is laid in the examination on the man's earning ability, on the number of his dependents, name, birthplace, every detail is required, and although it rauy be true that the pension is not awarded with a thought as to the man's earning capacity, be it great or small, the feeling among the men is that it undoubtedly does, or there would not be so much stress laid on those particular circumstances. lie would not otherwise be called on to give such a detailed statement as to his earning powers and dependents. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Outside of that, can you speak as to the returned soldier, whether they are satisfied with the provisions that have been made with regard to them, such as con- valescent homes, hospitals, medical treatment and so on? Is there any complaint along those lines? — A. There have been complaints regarding the medical treatment in this form, that it does not seem medical officers treating returned men are under sufficiently strict discipline in this regard. A returned man is warned to appear at a certain place. He is an out-patient and is told to appear at a convalescent home for treat- ment at a certain time. He will usually find he has to wait after the time appointed for anything from two to three hours before getting an opportunity to see the medical officer. Q. Is that by reason- of the fact that there are so many others ahead of him, or that the medical officer is not there to attend to his duty? — A. Both. It often hap- pens that there is a large number to attend to, and the medical officer arrives late. These men, as far as my experience goes, are mainly in civil practice. A man has his living to consider, and the civil practice comes first, even among the most zealous of the medical men engaged in that voluntary work. Mr. Pardee: Is there anything else? Mr. TuRLEY : It does come to this : a man may go days or weeks without medical attention because there is not an enforced attendance of medical officers at certain times and places. Mr. Whitton: There is one other subject I would like to bring up with your permission, and it is this, I will quote my own case: For instance, a young medical officer of^ say, 2-i years of age, has to state the amount of a man's earning capacity according to the labour market. Now, I fail to see what a medical officer of that age would know about the labour market. Mr. Pardee: I suppose a medical officer ought to know a man's earning capacity from the physical state he was in. Mr. WiiiTTON : If he knows, how is it that the Pension Commissioners at Ottawa cut the pension down ? Mr. Pardee: What else is there? Mr. Turley: I know of nothing else, sir, myself. Mr. Pardee: You are satisfied with the convalescent homes and with the treat- ment the men get there, are you? Mr. Whitton: Speaking of the convalescent home at Whitby, the situation is extremely good, it is one of the finest hospitals I have had the privilege of inspecting But two things have to be borne in mind, a man's health and his amusements. He is sent to such a place for his health, primarily, and it is an ideal place to recuperate, but the providing of amusement for him should not be overlooked. Mr. Pardee: Do you not think there is sufficient amusement provided? Mr. Whitton: No, sir. I would also draw attention to this point. There is no cover overhead for the men when they walk from the cottages in which they are [Sergt.-Major J. Rowe Whitton.] 814 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS located to the dining room, a distance of about fifty yards. In consequence, the men are exposed to rain or snow as they walk across that space, and are liable to get wet. I would suggest that a covered way be provided, leading from each of the cottages to the dining room. Mr. Pardee: Have any reports been made to the authorities of the Whitby insti- tution by the War Veterans' Association along those lines ? Mr. Whitton: We have not made any representations as an association, but on the occasion of my visit to Whitby I suggested that such a thing was absolutely necessary, otherwise complaints would be received from the men. The CHAraMAN : Are you aware that the authorities at Whitby have recently made arrangements for an amusement officer whose sole duty it will be to provide recreation for the men at that institution? Mr. Whitton: No, sir, I am not. Mr. Pardee : To whom did you make your recommendation when at Whitby ? Mr. Whitton: To Major Wilson. Mr. Pardee: And did Major Wilson say he would take it into consideration? Mr. Whitton: There were several officers present at the time and they thought it would be advisable to have such a thing. Mr. Pardee: When did you make your recommendation? Mr. Whitton: I made it three months ago, it was a verbal and not a written recommendation. Mr. Pardee : You do not consider the amusements there sufficient for the returned soldier ? Mr. Whitton : No, sir. Mr. Pardee: What would you suggest? Mr. Whitton : I do not consider it any officer's duty to look after the men's amuse- ment. Mr. Pardee : Yes, but what would you suggest ? Mr. Whitton : Get the Eegimental Sergeant Major, or some other returned man, to look after the men's amusements if they cannot look after them themselves. Mr. Pardee: What would you suggest? Mr. Whitton: You cannot lay down any strict rule. Billiard tables and a few things like that would be appropriate. Mr. Pardee : You are only referring to the Home at Whitby ? Mr. Whitton: That is the only one I know of personally. Mr. Pardee : You do not know anything about the Convalescent Homes here ? Mr. Whitton: The men at the Convalescent Homes here have plenty of amuse- ments. Not only that, but they are taken out to theatres during the week by ladies or gentlemen who feel disposed to entertain a few wounded soldiers. In Toronto the men, I think, are treated remarkably well. Mr. Pardee : In Whitby, then, what line would you suggest ? Mr. Whitton : They have not the facilities there that we have in Toronto. Mr. Pardee: What facilities do they lack there? Mr. Whitton: There are no theatres there. Mr. TuRLEY : The point is this that in the city a man gets ample opportunity of amusement through voluntary offers and so on. [Sergt. -Major J. Rowe Whitton.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 815 Examination of Mr. Whitton resumed. By the Chairman: Q. When you were at Whitby, had they installed moving pictures in the home? — A. No. Q. They have thfem now. Had they an amusement officer? — A. No, sir. Q. Had they billiard tables?— A. No. Q. They have them now. Did you know that they are arranging bowling alleys? — A. No, sir. Q. And as soon as spring opens for outdoor field sports, football, baseball, and so on. When these things are done they will improve the situation? — ^A. Without a doubt. By Mr. Pardee: Q. You would not want all your convalescent homes to have these things? — A. You cannot get a man entirely well in the city. It is all very well for him to be among country surroundings but I would suggest that they have some means of transporting the man's relatives up to Whitby, even if they went to the extent of a free train once a week. It is the mere fact of his being away from his friends and relatives Q. He convalesces more quickly when he is with them? — ^A. Yes. Q. And it is absolutely a necessity to see them ? — A. Yes. Q. You think he should see them once a week? — A. Yes. The train might arrive on Saturday and leave Saturday night. Q. Outside of that, so far as Whitby is concerned, is it satisfactory to the returned men? — A. As far as I know. Q. As for the rest of the various convalescent homes, you are content with them? — A. Quite. Q. And you think that the returned men are contented, you speak for them? — A. I think they are, sir. Q. And you would suggest nothing further than what you have done at the present time? — A. I do not think I could suggest anything further. By the Chairman: Q. From the men's point of view, do you think the vocational tiaining is appre- ciated? — A. Oh, yes, I know of many instances where men have greatly benefited by vocational training. Q. I am going to ask you to solve one of the problems that come up. This morning we went to the b\ireau of the Provincial Soldiers' Aid Commission. I was shown the card of one man who had been given eight jobs and every time he had thrown up the job. What would you recommend them to do in a case like that? — A. May I ask what wages was he earning? Q. He had an assortment of jobs, I do not remember the wages. He had been a labourer originally. I cannot repeat what the jobs were, but they were quite an assortment. — A. Every man that we have placed in our association so far who has applied to us for any work has always managed to suit at that work. I do not know of any instance where he has not stayed there and improved his position. Q. Would you suggest that when the provincial organization fails to suit a man after six or eight attempts that they should consult with you? — A. I would strongly advise the returned men to consult with us straight away. Q. The Soldiers' Aid Commission has been created by the Provincial Govern- ment for the purpose of procuring employment for returned men. which is a very large problem. Do you not think that the re-employment of men is too large a pro- position" for a voluntary organization like your own ? — A. We could work in co-opera- tion with them. Finding a man a job is one thing and seeing that he gets adequate wages is another. [Sergrt. -Major J. Rowe WTiitton.] 816 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. How can your association co-operate with the Soldiers' Aid Commission in the case of the man they find it very difficult to suit with a job? — A. Let them apply to us to send up that man. We will take the man up that will be the most suitable for that work. Q. Put it the other way: supposing they have a man that they have been endeavouring six or eight times to place and have been unsuccessful in doing so, would you advise their sending that man to you? — A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Have you any objection to working in connection with the Soldiers' Aid Commission? — A. We are only too happy to co-operate with the Soldiers' Aid, we have done so all along. Q. I just wanted to ask that question for this reason: In Ottawa there is some friction between the Soldiers' Aid and the Veterans' Association, and the question was asked their president whether or not they could work together, and he replied that the returned soldier did not want to go to the Soldiers' Aid Association, and for that reason he did not think the two bodies could work together. — A. That might be true in a great many instances. Q. But you do not see any difficulty in the way of harmonious work between the two ? — A. The aspect of the question is this : A man goes up to the Soldiers' Aid here looking for a job, and the first man he sees is apparently a healthy, sturdy man occupying the chair as secretary. By the Chairman: Q. And he is not wearing a returned soldier's button? — A. No. By Mr. Pardee: ■Q. Who is the Secretary here? — A. The Secretary here is Mr. Warwick, an appar- ently healthy specimen of manhood, and the returned soldier has to go to him to ask him for a job; he does not care about doing that; he would rather come to us. By the Clmirman: Q. The first person the man meets on entering the building wears a returned soldier's button? — A. Yes, in the outer office, but that is the only man there who is a returned soldier; I would suggest that more men who are returned soldiers should be employed there. We have any amount of our men employed at the munitions factories, the Imperial Government Board especially, and every man we have sent down there so far has obtained employment at the proper rate of wages, irrespective of what pension he may get. Q. Do you find that when you send a man he sticks to the job ? — A. Yes. We don't send a man down unless we feel absolutely certain that this man is going to make good, because we point out that it is for the good of the Association and for the honour of the , Great War Veterans, and that man tries to make good. Q. Have you any man who has been placed in five or six successive jobs? — A. No,' sir. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Then you see no reason, nor Mr. Turley, speaking for the War Veterans*] Association, why the Soldiers' Aid and the Association could not work side] by side? — A. Oh, no reason whatever. We have a great friend in Mr. McPherson; we know very well he is doing everything in his power to help us. Mr. Turley : There are no complaints regarding the methods used by the Soldiers' Aid, and the case of a man who has several jobs is not remarkable, for that man is in an unsettled condition; he is looking for the best job; he wants the best wages he can get and the best position. I had ten positions in the first eleven weeks I was in this country, because they wouldn't pay me in the first ten, and I had not come from the ; war. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 817 By Mr. Middlehro: Q. You were not any worse afterwards than before? — A. Much better. !My eleventh position was one I stayed at for nearly three years. By the Chairman: Q. I may say that the secretary at the Soldiers' Aid, when I asked if they got tired finding jobs for a' man, said, " No, we will keep on " ? — A. We find them very willing and able. Q. We had a man in Montreal who tried fourteen jobs in three weeks, and was still looking for something; there is such a thing as wearing out the patience of the volunteer organization that is trying to serve the soldiers? — A. Certainly. They have an able and willing staff in the Soldiers' Aid Commission here, and we have no trouble. As the sergeant major said, some of the men object to the idea that an able-bodied civilian should be in charge of the Department — apparently able-bodied, and a man who doesn't seem to have offered himself for military service. That does perhaps cause a little suspicion in the minds of men first applying. Q. Would it ever occur to you that possibly that man might have a very accurate knowledge of industrial conditions in a city like this, and that it would be very difficult to find a returned soldier who would have the same? — A. It does occur to us, but it does not alter the fact that a man who does not know anything about it and goes up there as a stranger and finds that the head of the department is apparently an able- bodied civilian, it "does not remove the impression from his mind that the other fellow should be where he has been; that is all. It is an unfortunate thing. Mr. Whittox : If the man should have happened to be wearing the rejection but- ton instead of the Y.M.C.A. Central button there would not be so much kick coming; it would look as if he had tried then. By the Chairman: Q. You have no fault to find as to the examiner, or the work he accomplishes, and his willingness to co-operate with you? — A. No, sir. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. With reference to your complaint about the ruling of the Medical Board as to a man's disability, have you anything to suggest that will overcome that, an appeal board or anything of that nature? — A. Yes, I suggest that in making the award, the man should be informed in the same communication as to the office or officer to whom he should address a request for re-consideration. Q. Those men are not up before a permanent board; the board does not always rule exactly the same; medical men differ in their opinions, as other men will; and you would suggest that the soldier, if not satisfied with the ruling of the Board, should have the right to appeal to another Board; or would you suggest the appointment of another Board by the War Veterans Association? — A. I thinlv every case of re-con- ^ideration should come up to a different board. I would suggest the establishment of a permanent board in every military centre to reconsider appeals in regard^ to pension awards during the period when the pensions are being awarded. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. A permanent appeal board like a Court of Appeal? — A. Yes, sir. Mr. Whitton: If a man in the army is punished by court martial he has a right to appeal to a higher tribunal, or he can take exception to any member of the board. By the Chairman: Q. Would your idea be that subsequent to the award of the pension by the board at Ottawa, say three or six weeks afterwards, or at the time when application might 28277— 52 rSerfirt.-Ma1or .T. Rowe Whitton.1 818 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS be made, you wanted that case reopened and reconsidered? Now, supposing in that time the man had improved in health so materially that the board on reconsideration cut down his pension, what would you think of that? — A. I don't think a man, if he thought he was improving, would apply to a medical board for re-examination. Q. He would not want to run that risk, would he? — A. No. Mr. TuRLEY : It works both ways. Mr. Whitton : A man does not want his pension if he is well. By the Chairman: Q. What the country wants is to give you what you are entitled to, not less? — A. That is all a soldier is looking for. Sergeant Lowery^ Chairman of the Investigating Committee of the War Veterans Association, recalled : said : Speaking of the Soldiers' Aid Commission, I was noticing that in their remarks my comrades forgot to mention that the returned soldier wear- ing the button that was mentioned is getting $14 a week, while the yoimg lady in the same office is getting $18 a week. By the Chairman: Q. Do you know the relative value of their services? — A. Well, we can supply a man with executive and administrative ability the same as that young lady has; and if it is to assist returned soldiers, the best place to start with them is to have a staff of returned soldiers. Q. Can you supply returned soldiers who have taken a special course in card index work? — A. I would undertake to supply him, but not at a moment's notice. I have had the opportunity of supplying more than one who has had training in that. As a matter of fact we have placed from 16 to 20 men who are doing work in the Customs, and among them there are several that would undertake the duties that that girl is doing. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Is she a stenographer? — A. I don't think so. We have had stenographers come to the association. _ By the Chairman: Q. I think the committee would really rather hear serious grievances of the soldiers than a criticism of the staff office, and consequently if you have serious grievances that the committee can remedy we would hear them? — A. Well, there is a case of Private F. Goode, of the 19th Battalion, that was placed before the Medical Board on the 28th November; discharge to date from the 28th December; recom- mended for pension, I understand, at $16 per month, class 4; has not yet received any word of his pension. Q. How long ago was that? — A. Three months ago, the 28th of this month, I have here the correspondence in regard to the pay and allowances that I mentioned yesterday. I interviewed Mr. Warwick in regard to pay and allowances, and he con- sulted Ottawa. Q. Is that in respect to a specific case, or on the general question? — A. This is upon my own case which was quoted, where they sent me a statement that was abso- lutely incorrect. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. That is the case in which, in the first place, they claimed you were not getting enough, and in the next place they claimed you were indebted to them? — A. In one case they gave me a balance of $21,23, I think it is, and in the next case they turned r Sergeant A. E. Lowery.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 819 around and informed me that they had instructed the paymaster of No. 2 Division to stop out $3 from my pay — debit instead of credit. Q. What office does that come from? — A. I think it is no department specially mentioned, but Mr. Warwick states: — '' With reference to your recent call here, I have now received the following- statement, being a copy of your last English pay certificate furnished by the Paymaster General's Branch." By the Chairman: Q. And that does not correspond with your own understanding of the case? — A. It doesn't correspond with mine, and their two statements do not correspond one with another. Q. Will you prepare a specific statement in regard to that and we will have it thoroughly investigated, referring to files of correspondence? — A. Very good. Q. Have you any further cases similar to that which you would like to have investigated? — A. The case of Private Gough of the Princess Patricia Light Infantry, paid a pension of $132 from January 5 to April 26, During the above-mentioned period Private Gough was a patient in the College Street Hospital. Part of that time he was a patient in the Toronto General Hospital, and had an operation performed on his nose. Q. That is another case where the pension was paid prematurely ? — A. Yes. Q. And where you think he should have pay and allowance instead of pension? -A. Yes. Q. File the facts of that and we will have the matter investigated? — A. Then there is the case of William Whitaker, 95th Battalion, returned from Great Britain, discharged to date from the ^4th of this month, medical certificate states that he is in a very bad condition, and the doctor informed me personally that he should be given convalescent treatment as an indoor patient from three to six months. Q. Is he discharged? — A. The discharge dates from the 24th of this month. The grievance is that he was discharged in a condition which could be improved by treatment, and which we consider the military authorities should have taken up. Q. Where is he now? — A. At home, ill in bed. Q. He has been a bed patient since he returned home two weeks ago ? — A. Yes. Q. Has he made application to be re-received in the hospital?— A. He made application to Sergeant Scott, another returned soldier, and I understand nothing was done about it. The man's wife called upon me, and I sent my own doctor up, and this certificate is by my own doctor and it will be at the expense of the association. Q. Have you communicated with Major Munn, the chief medical officer? — A. I am going up to see what I can do personally. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Will you report that case to the secretary of the committee? — A. Yes. Q. Is that man on pension? — A. No pension at all. Q. And no pay and allowances? — A. No. Q. Did be get any gratuity? — A. I think he received $4<» for his last clieque. 1 would not say whether that was gratuity or not. Q. Is he a married man? — A. Yes, Q. Children? — A. No, sir. Q. Just a wife? — A. Just a wife. By Mr. Middlebro: Q. Up to what time has he been paid?— A. Up to the 24th of this month. Then there was the case of the late Private Knevett, now discharged. He received a communication that he was granted a pension of $132 for one year from April 1, 28277— 52^ 820 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS 1916. Later he was informed that his pension is increased, and instead of getting $132 he will get a gratuity. There are several cases on record of men receiving notice that their pensions are increased under the new scale of increases but instead of that we find they have dropped considerably, jtnd that they are worse off than they were previously. Q. In a case of that kind do you report the matter to Mr. Crocker, the Chief of the Pensions Board here? — A. That matter has been taken up with Mr. Crocker at the present time. Q. That is a case that was pending? — A. Yes. Q. You have made complaints and are awaiting answer? — A. Yes. Q. They used the stereotyped form and perhaps the clerk did not notice whether it ^as an increase or a decrease ? — A. Yes. It was poor satisfaction for a man when he was given to understand he was receiving an increase to find that he was receiving less. Then there was the ease of Private James Martin: at the time he was dis- charged he was recommended for full pension, and was examined by five or six medical boards. Later on he was re-examined, and was informed his pension would bo stopped, the board claiming carelessness in regard to his disability. He saw service in France, and was overcome by some kind of an attack in that country. This man returned to Canada, and was examined by several boards in the usual procedure before coming here. When he reached Canada he was discharged and recommended for full pension at $480 per year. Shortly after his return he received a communication to report to be examined, and was re-examined. I had all the correspondence between the different departments and I returned the correspondence to him, but the medical board at Toronto informed him that after the 12 months that his pension had already been granted for he would receive no further pension, as they considered the accident due to negligence. We took up this case. It was one of those cases where he required an attendant he was in such shocking condition. He was examined, and I have seen the medical board's certificate. It was in technical terms, but it simply amounts to this, that his body and mind are affected, and the right side more or less paralyzed from the shoulder down, including the right arm. That man's pension was cut down just because this one board at Toronto came to the conclusion that he had been negli- gent. I have more of the facts at my disposal than they had, although they were in a position to see them, and they were placed before them later, and amongst these documents that the board had the opportunity to examine was the statement of the first doctor who saw him, and there was no question of negligence at that time. The point raised is this: how was it a board in Toronto raises a plea of negligence in regard to a man's disability, and five or six boards who had examined this man pre- vious to his return never thought of such a thing and never raised the objection. By the Chairman: Q. Where was it alleged the negligence occurred? — A. Well they did not specify any accident. They just put it down as negligence. By Mr. Pardee: Q. They did not say what kind or what way? — A. No. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. What was the cause of his injury? — A. He was working on a wagon wheel, and medically I could not say what the injury was, I saw the medical practitioner who examined him, and I told him the Convalescents' Association did not want to back up any false case or cases that had no claim, and he told me he could not do anything ; the man was negligent. Q. Was he on duty at the time he was hurt? — A. Yes. Mr. MiDDLEBRO : I do not think the question of negligence makes any differenco [Sergt. A. E. Lowerv.l RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 821 By the Chairman: -Q. Was it alleged the injury was due to his own negligence? — A. That is the case stated fi'om Ottawa. Mr. MiDDLEBRO: As long as a man is on duty, under the Ontario law it makes no difference whether he is negligent or not, he can recover. The Witness: It was paid by the board at Ottawa on recommendation of the board at Toronto. The Chairman: You do not know what the negligence consisted of? Mr. Turley: No. Mr. MiDDLEBRO : Was he on duty at the time? Mr, LowERY : The man states he was on duty working on a wagon wheel, probably oiling it. The Chairman: Do you know what the man's medical condition was at the time he was doing that work? Mr. Lowery: I have no idea, but acting on the presumption the man must be medically fit. He was examined before leaving England for France very strictly, and he had only been two weeks in France, and it would therefore appear that he would be medically fit. The Chairman : You do not know the facts with respect to the allegation of negligence in that case? Mr. Lowery: No. I can find no reference to the question, with reference to what the negligence was. Mr. !Middlebro: Can you point to the section of the Act which says that a man is not entitled to compensation if the accident is due to his negligence? Mr. Lowery: No. They say the pension will be discontinued as the accident ia due to negligence. Mr. Sutherland: That will be a case where you would like to have him appear before another board? Mr. Lowery: Yes. The Chairman : I think it all depends on what constituted the negligence. It may be the accident was due to the negligence of the man. If so the pension board would not accept the full responsibility. As to that we do not know. Mr. Lowery: The point I would raise is this: What evidence is there, what assumption, why should they assume here in Toronto that the man is suffering through his own negligence when at least five previous boards have never raised the question? The Chairman: Only this, that previous boards did not examine for pension, and the official board that did examine for pension, which imposes a $15,000 obligation on the state, had to be satisfied in regard to the facts. Mr. Lowery : Some of the boards did examine for pension. I was examined at Folkestone, at Bath and Quebec for pension, that is three boards, and recommended for pension by them, those boards believing their recommendation was necessary in regard to the pension. Mr. Whitton : I should like to know how it is the Board of Pension Commis- sioners can lower the rate as recommended by the medical ofl5cer? The medical officer's examination fixes the amount of the i)ension, recommends you for a certain amount of pension, and on receipt of the notification from Ottawa you find it has been lowered. Mr. Turley: Lower than the pension board at this end estimate. [Sergt. A. E. Lowery.J 822 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS The Chairman: The pension board regards this as an independent tribunal They have access to all previous documents but are not necessarily bound by them. Just what evidence the Pension Board may have had which was not in possession of the previous board, we do not know. The pension board have all the evidence and infor- mation before them and they go through it before coming to a conclusion. "We are going to hear Mr. Crocker, who represents the Board of Pension Commissioners in Toronto. If you gentlemen like to remain a few moments longer, and if there is any- thing you want to ask Mr. Crocker after his examination is concluded, you will be at liberty to do so. Mr. Whitton: There is one thing I should like to submit, and that is that there should be a more experienced medical officer to judge as to the extent of a man's incapacity. The Chairman: You mean the medical officer by whose finding the Pension Board is largely guided? Mr. Whitton : Yes. This medical officer fixes the man's incapacity, but it .does not at all follow when that report gets to Ottawa that it will be acted upon. There may be a far less pension given than the local medical officer has already awarded. I do not know of any instance yet where a man has not had his pension cut down from Ottawa. Hon. Mr. Murphy : Is that done as a general rule ? Mr. Whitton: Absolutely. The man may be recommended for a two-fifths pension and it will be reduced to one-quarter after reaching Ottawa. We think also that the age of the man whose pension is being fixed should be taken into considera- tion. A man of 45 years of age, with a wife and large family, is entitled to gi-eater remuneration than a single man of 20. Mr. Pardee: Quite so. Mr. Whitton : A single man of 20 will hardly have a wife and a large family to support. The incapacity may be the same in both cases, but the older man will have greater responsibilities. Also the older man has not the same facility for learn- ing another occupation. Mr. Pardee: What you say is that when you are recommended by the medical board here for a pension it is always reduced at Ottawa? Mr. Whitton : Ijjvariably so. Mr. Pardee : The applicant for the pension does not appear in Ottawa ? Mr. Whitton : No, he does not appear in Ottawa. That is why the reduction is unintelligible to me after a certain recommendation has gone forward from here. Hon. Mr. Murphy: Was any explanation asked in any of those cases? Mr. Whitton : No, not that I know of. Mr. Lowery : Might I mention the thing that has come before our Investiga- tion Conunittee and been the subject of much discussion. A lot of complications and difficulties arise by reason of there being so many different departments and differ- ent sources of administration in regard to the returned soldiers. What we suggest is that there be established some central agency for returned soldiers where we can go and promptly adjust any matter whether connected with pay and allowances, pensions or any other branch of the service, and that some person be there with whom business could be transacted, a returned soldier, possibly, because I think one could be found who has the necessary ability. That would mean we would simply have to go to the one place to adjust any matter which came up. At present such adjustment involves going to four different places. For pay and allowances we have to get into touch with General Logie; in connection with pensions we go to Mr. Crocker, District Pension Officer; in the matter of employment we must consult [Sergt. A. E. Lowery.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 823 the Soldiers' Aid Commission. This shows you the number of loose ends that are running about. We consider that these different organizations should be in the same building under an officer thoroughly conversant with the affairs of the returned soldier, whom we could consult. The Chairman : Just to make that very clear, because it is an important point : If it is the case of a pension, where do you go? Mr. LowERY : To Mr. Crocker, the District Pensions Officer. The Chairman : Where is his office. Mr. LowERY : 59 Yonge Street. The Chairman : If it is a question of pay, where do you have to go ? Mr. LowERY : To General Logic or right to Ottawa. The Chairman: Where do you go when you want to consult General Logic? Mr. LowERY : To the Exhibition Camp. The Chairman: How far away is that from the first place? Mr. LowERY : 25 minutes on the street car. The Chairman: Where do you go if you have to deal with a hospital case? Mr. LowERY : We have to go to Mr. Riddle, Secretary of the Hospitals Commission. Hon. Mr. Murphy: Where is Mr. Riddle's office? Mr. LowERY : No. 1 Queen's Park. These institutions form a triangle, with each one about 25 minutes distant from the other. The Chairman : And when you have four different places to visit, how far do you have to travel ? Mr. LowERY : It takes two thirds of the day and probably more. Mr. Pardee : To whom do you go with respect to employment for returned soldiers. Mr. Lowery: The Soldiers'' Aid Commission. The Chairman : And where are your own quarters ? Mr. Lowery : At the corner of Church and Carleton Streets. The Chairman: Is that near any of the places you have alluded to? Mr. Lowery: No. Brigadier-General Mason : Do you have to go to these places to adjust the cases of more than one man? Mr. Lowery : Yes, sometimes I have the cases of three or four men at the one time. This is all honorary work, we do not get any pay for it, and it amounts to a lot of trivial expenditure which you hardly feel like putting in a claim for, but which never- theless in the aggregate makes an inroad into a man's income. The Chairman: Have you got to pay rent? Mr. Lowery : We have a building which we pay rent for, and in that building ftiere is an office with different comforts for returned soldiers. The Chairman : Would you be willing to have an office in combination with these other agencies if they should be put under the one roof? Mr. Lowery : As r^ards a man being under the same roof with all these other agencies and giving his whole time to the work, that man would need a salary. Mr. Pardee: Is there sufficient work to justify a man in your position being paid a salary? Mr. Lowery : Yes, and it is increasing all the time. Mr. Pardee: To what extent is it increasing? Mr. Lowery : I have had one night at home in seven weeks, with my wife and family, as a result of doing this work. [Sergrt A. E. Lowery.] 824 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— O.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Mr. Pardee: How long does it take in the day time. Mr. Lowery: In the day time my luncheon hours are taken up, about 60 per cent. Then I call upon other members to assist me. I rely upon them to help me out seeing that my time is taken up with my business. Hon. Mr. Murphy: Were you able to get the attendance of Langtry, the man you spoke of? Mr. Lowery: No, sir, the man is sick and unable to come down here. Hon. Mr. Murphy : Will he be able to come to-morrow ? Mr. Lowery: I do not know. I think not, because he has been sick for some time. Witnesses discharged. Brigadier-General Mason : LTnfortunately there is in Toronto no permanent military headquarters. The authorities use the exhibition building in the winter and go into camp in the summer. Toronto is very deficient in that respect. There ought to be permanent buildings for headquarters in this district. The Chairman : In view of the criticisms that have come from the War Veterans' Association of Toronto in regard to the payment of pensions, I think it would be well to hear Colonel Forbes, paymaster of No. 2 District, and Mr, Crocker of the pensions office. The witnesses now on the stand may, if they have concluded their evidence, stand aside and later on, if there are any questions they would like put we shall be glad to put them. Brigadier-General Mason : Would it not be well for this committee to make a recommendation that Toronto should be provided with something in the nature of Military Headquarters, incorporating under one roof all the different departments? The CHAffiMAN : I think that will receive consideration when the committee meets to form its recommendations. Brigadier-General Mason : I understand that there has been offered free to the Militia Department a suitable building which will only require a small expenditure to put it in proper repair. It might be well for this committee to recommend that this offer be accepted. Lt.-Col. J. E. Forbes, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. What position do you occupy here. Colonel Forbes ? — A. Paymaster of Military District No. 2. Q. And you report directly to whom ? — A. The Accountant and Paymaster-General at Ottawa. Q. Through General Logic? — A. No, sir. Q. Directly at Ottawa? — A. Directly. Excuse me, that is as regards returns and technical matters. Q. Will you explain, Colonel Forbes, for the benefit of the Committee, as you know it, the course that is followed when a man who is a casualty over at the front starts on his homeward course, the course with respect to his pay and allowance? — A. The man is returned Q. Take him right from the Ypres salient, for example. He becomes a casualty, and is sent back to a base hospital. — A. We know nothing of him until he lands here in Canada, and he comes furnished with a last pay certificate. Q. By whom? — A. By his former unit, or the Chief Paymaster overseas. Q. Which he brings with him? — A. Yes. [Lleut.-Col. J. R. Forbes.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 825 Q. Has he a pay book? — A. Yes, in nearly every case. Q. Is that universal, that he has his pay book ? — A. He should have it. Q. A good many men have claimed that they do not have it. Why would that happen? — A. A number have come to me and claimed that their pay books have been taken from them when they landed at Quebec. For what reason I do not know. Q. And not restored? — A. No. Q. Does that put him at a disadvantage in determining what is coming to him from the department? — A. No, sir. Q. What has he to show? — A. His last pay certificate. Q. Is that made up from the pay book? — A. The pay book simply shows the sum of money paid to that man ; it does not show a statement of his account. Q. It is easy, is it not, to calculate what is due him? — A. Yes, you can take a man's pay book and calculate what is due him approximately in Canada. Q. Now, when a man comes home with only a certificate and no pay book, and claims he has been underpaid $6, how can you satisfy him that that is not the case? — A. I cannot. That man when he comes, if he is brought back here, becomes a casualty, or rather goes to the Hospitals Commission. That man's last pay certificate is for- warded to Headquarters at Ottawa, his account is adjusted there, and a fresh last pay certificate is forwarded to Toronto. He is then taken on the pay list of the Military Hospitals Commission. Q. Do you find delays in that work at the head office at Ottawa? — A. Well, I would not say that they were very prompt. Of course, they have a large number to handle there. Q. As an actual fact, are delays frequent? — A. Yes, sometimes. Q. In respect to these casualties? — A. Yes, sometimes. Q. And are disagreements with the men as to the amount frequent? — A. Not very; we find very few complaints. Q. Supposing a returned soldier is discharged and he feels that he has not received the right amount, who does he go to for rectification? — A. Well, complaints have been made to me. Whether these are all the cases I cannot say. I have written to Head- quarters asking that the matter be gone into in those cases. Q. Do you, or does any officer under you, make it a specialty to be at the disposal of the returned soldier who regards his pay sheet as defective? — A. Certainly, we are always there. Q. Where is your office? — A. At the Exhibition Grounds for the present. Q. That is a long way from the discharge depots here, is it not? — A. The discharge depot here ? Q. A man is discharged from the Spadina Hospital, let us say? — A. Well, we would not handle him, he would come under the Hospitals Commission, he would receive his discharge and his pay through the Military Hospitals Commission. ^ By BHgadier- General Mason: Q. Where are you to be found at exhibition time, in the summer? — A. Sometimes at Niagara Camp, sometimes at Camp Borden. Q. And a man has to go there to hunt you up? (No answer.) By the Chairman: Q. Are casualties paid off by you ? — A. No, there is a casualty paymaster dealing with that matter all the time. Q. Then we are examining the wrong man. I want to know about the payment of returned soldier. — A. I can tell you something about it. Q. Who is the man primarily responsible for the adjustment of the account of the returned soldier when he is discharged? — A. The casualty paymaster. Q. Who is he in this district ? — A. Capt. L. W. Nurse, to be found at the Exhibi- tion Grounds, either he or the paymaster of the Military Hospitals Commission, " D " Unit, at No. 1 Queens Park. [Lieut. -Col. J. R. Forbes.] 826 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Well, I do not wonder that the returned soldier gets mixed up. Now, suppos- ing I was discharged from Spadina Hospital today, and felt that I had a grievance in the matter of my pay, who would I go to, to get it adjusted? — A. To your own pay- master, the paymaster of the Military Hospitals Commission. Q. Who is that?— A. Lieut. M. A. Chadwick. Q. So there are three paymasters? Am I right? Yourself, Capt. Nurse and Lieut. Chadwick? — A, I am the district paymaster, and I supply these officers with their funds. Q. You supply Capt. Nurse and Lieut. Chadwick with the funds, and they pay them out? — A. They distribute them. Q. Wliich belongs to the returned soldier particularly, Lieut. Chadwick? — A. Yes. The casualty paymaster here deals mostly with men not physically fit to go overseas. These are transferred from their units before going overseas to the casualty paymaster. Q. They are not returned soldiers, they are camp cases. — A. Practically camp cases. Q. Who is the man that settles up and gives the final cheque to the returned sol- dier when he is dismissed? — A. Lieut. Chadwick. Q. Is it to him that they should apply, if they are not satisfied with the amount they get ? — A. They sTiould. Again, on the other hand, I can give you a little informa- tion. Q. We will be glad of anything you can tell us. — A. Officers, non-commissioned officers, and men come from overseas on leave, sick leave or perhaps to recover from wounds, or maybe they have been over there for a couple of years and have a few weeks leave. They come over here, and bring their last pay certificate with them. Q. When they are on leave? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Does the last pay certificate show the balance due them ? — A. It shows the date up to which they were paid inclusive. Q. From that certificate can you ascertain what their balance is on a given date here? — A. To the cent. If they are in need of money, they can come to me and I give them a cheque for advances on account of amounts due them. By the Chairman: Q. On account? — A. On account, inside of five minutes. Q. You enter that advance on their certificate? — A. Yes. Q. Like a letter of credit when one is travelling in Europe? — A. Practically the same. If in any other district, they can do the same thing, it is just like a letter of credit. It is the same way with the non-commissioned officer and rtDan. He has his pay book and last pay certificate and we enter on these any advances we make. If these officers, non-commissioned officers and men are not able to return, we recover these last pay certificates and pay books from them, send them to the Paymaster General, who adjusts their accounts in Ottawa and settles up with them. Q. In final settlement to the date of discharge? — A. Yes. Q. And for fifteen days more, or do they get paid that beyond the day of dis- charge? — A. I think so, I am not quite sure. Q. Does the pay book go back to the man? — A. I do not think they send the paj book back. Q. What evidence has the man on which to dispute the account, if he is not satisfied with what he receives; he has given up his pay book? — A. I will not be sure whether they send the pay book back or not. I have had various cheques come to me to be passed to various non-commissioned officers and men in settlement of their account, without any pay book. Q. Do you think any detriment would be done to the service if the man, after his jiischarge, were given back his pay book, as a memento or as a record of what he had received. — A. Not at all. [Lieut.-Col. J. R. Forbes.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 827 Q. There is no special reason why it should remain with the Government? — A. None at all. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. At the same time is it not possible that a discharged soldier can get a copy of his account if he desires it? — A. Yes, it might take a little time and trouble to get it, but it could be got. By Mr. Ross (^Middlesex) : Q. If a man wanted a statement of account, would he get it as a matter of course? —A. Yes, I would think so. If anybody came to me and wanted anything like that, I would write to Ottawa for it. Q. And you have had occasion to do that? A. Nbt for a man's full account, but I have had occasion for a statement of account covering, say, a certain number of months, or perhaps a yeer, something like that. Q. And that statement was given you without any trouble? — A. That statement was given without any trouble, yes. By the Chairman: , Q. What do you think of this idea that has been recently suggested, that there should be some central place in Toronto where representatives of all these services could be found under one roof, so that a man could be certain to get his case dealt with by some one in authority at that one place? — A. I think that is a good idea. Q. You think that would be in the interest of the returned soldiers as well as of the department? — A. In the interests of the returned soldiers and the department. Witness discharged. Mr. James H. Crocker called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. You are, I understand, the Toronto representative of the Pensions Board of Canada?— A. Yes. Q. When were you appointed? — A. In January of this year. Q. Were you at the front yourself? — A. 'No, sir. Q. Your appointment came from Ottawa? — A. Yes. Q. Had you any experience prior to your appointment in the matter of pensions? — A. Indirectly with the Government, through the Patriotic Fund. Q. You had considerable experience in Toronto in connection with that fund? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Mxirphy: Q. Prior to your appointment, in what business were you engaged? — A. In the banking business. Q. What banks were you connected with? — A. The Bank of New Brunswick and the Bank of Toronto. By the Chairman : Q. Where is your office? — A. 59 Yonge street. Q. Is it thoroughly known by all the soldiers, as a result of the steps you have taken, that you have opened an office here on behalf of the Pensions Board? Have you taken steps to notify all the soldiers' institutions? — A. We have. Q. So that they should all know that the office has been opened ? — A. They should all know. Q, Is your office conveniently situated with reference to the various hospitals used in the city? — A. It is centrally located as far as the city is concerned. [Mr. James H. Crockef.] 828 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. How far is it from the Spadina and from the Bishop Straehan Hospitals?— A. About ten or fifteen minutes in the car. Q. And the soldiers in both these institutions know of the opening of your office ? — A. I believe orders have been put up to that effect. Q. Have you put out any posters or sign, anything of that kind?— A. We have written to the authorities of these hospitals to the effect that we have opened an office asking them to put up the posters. Q. What staff had you in your office?— A. A stenographer and an investigator. Q. The investigator calling at the homes I suppose?— A. Calling at the homes. Q. Do you deal with all classes of pension cases including widows and disabled men? — A. Yes. Q. You deal with all classes? — A. All classes. Q. And you have a good many men come to see you about their pensions? — A. Yes. Q. What do you find their principal complaints to be?— A. At the first opening it appeared to be that they could not get a reply from Ottawa; I found that to be on account of the rush of work at Ottawa, due to the lack of staff, but this now has appar- ently been overcome. Another grievance was the delay in getting their pensions after discharge. That grievance has since been eliminated by continuing the pay and allowances until the pension is awarded. Q. And until the first cheque comes? — A. Quite so, and the same thing applies in the case of a widow. Q. Do you think from your experience that Patriotic Fund assistance should be given to families in special cases after the discharge of the man ; that the time in whicli the Patriotic Fund can give assistance should be extended in that way ? — A. After dis- charge. Q. Yes.— A. Yes, in a few cases. Q. You think there are some exceptional cases where it will be well for the Patriotic Fund to help the family? — A. Yes. There is one particular case that was drawn to my attention a few days ago, where a man died three weeks after his discharge, leaving a wife and a child in very poor circumstances. Q. Was there nobody to look after them? — A. JSTobody at all, they had no money at all, and the funeral expenses were $100; the widow has to go to work earning an average of $6 a week at day work. Q. Would she be qualified for a pension as a widow ? — A. I am taking that question up now. He was over age, and she has lost his discharge papers. I called on her last Saturday, but as yet I have been unable to trace the case very far. Q. Your principal trouble has been in tardiness of adjustment? — A. Yes. Q. How many cases have you at present in which complaint has been made to you of delay in adjustment at Ottawa ? — A. I have not any record. Q. Do you suppose you have twenty? — A. Yes, aU of that; I will probably have a list of about fifty cases. Q. Of which complaint is made and you have not yet got adjusted? — A. ^o, I would not say they are not adjusted, but I have that number altogether. Q. How many pending cases have you ? — A. At the present time, I would not have probably more than a dozen cases pending. Q. How long have these cases been pending? What delay has there been in con- nection with these cases; have any of them been pending for a month? — A. Yes, some of them possibly for a month. Q. I wish you would file with this committee a list of those cases which have been pending a month or more. We would like to see what delays there have been in adjust- ing these cases. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Before the pension is granted does that investigator look into the facts cited by the soldier and try and verify them or discredit them in any way? — A. The Inves- [M. James H. Crocker.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 829 tigating Department is employed more in the case of dependents of a soldier that has been killed. Q. To find how many there are? — A. Quite so, and assist them in sending for- ward any paper. The office acts more as an information office in that respect. Q. Does the investigator try to go into the facts and investigate whether the soldier is shamming, or anything of that kind? — A. As yet we ha\te not had occa- sion to. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Who is your investigator? — A. Mrg^ Lawson. By Mr. Ross: Q. Her occupation mainly is to find out how many dependents there are? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Are you appointed by the Patriotic Fund for this work? — A. Yes. By Mr. Sutherland : Q. What particular district do you cover in your operation, or are you confined to any particular area? — A. Well, we will be eventually, but it has not been definitely decided yet. Q. You are free to adjust all claims that come before you, no matter what part of the province they come from? — A. Quite so, at the present time. Q. Are there any other adjusting officers in connection with the Board in Ontario — in Western Ontario, for instance? — A. There is an office in London which was recently opened. Q. How recently? — A. Some time in February, I believe. By Mr. Ross: Q. What is the expense attending the running of your office, your own salary, your investigator's salary, your stenographer's salary — your total expenses per month? — A. About $275 a month. Q. That includes everything? — A. That includes everything. By the Chairman: Q. You have never Iveen in active service. — A. No, sir. Q. Did you try to enlist? — A. I did. Q. And were turned down as medically unfit? — A. Medically unfit. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Do you hear any complaints as to the grades of pension being 20 per cent instead of 10 per cent? — A. Well, I have not had any direct complaint; I have had suggestions that there should be some intermediate. By the Chairman: Q. Just for the benefit of the committee, can you tell us how many agencies there are here in Toronto that are endeavouring in one way or another to help the returned soldier or his family? We know of the Hospitals Commission, the Soldiers' Aid Commission of the Province, the Pensions Board, the Patriotic Fund, the Great War Veterans Association; now, how many more are there? Are there not khaki leagues, the I. O. D. E. (the Imperial Order of the Daughters of the Empire), and a lot of other organizations as well? — A. There are a lot. I don't know whether they take so much interest in the returned soldier, but I think the most of them are interested in the dependents and the soldiers who are at the front. Q. What we had in mind was to ascertain what co-ordination there was between these various bodies to prevent overlapping? — A. As far as returned soldiers are con- cerned, I think what you have mentioned would fairly cover it. [Mr. James H. Crocker.] 830 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETUn:SED SOLDIERS By Mr. Middlehro: Q. That is, if you have one common office where every soldier could take every complaint he had, there could not be any overlapping because they would all go through the same conduit pipe ? — A. Yes, I see. Q. What is your opinion as to the grading of the pensions into tenths instead of fifths ? — A. Well, in the case of anything under 20 per cent my personal opinion is that there should be some sort of a permanent arrangement. Q. That is, a man 19 per cent is entitled to some permanency as well as the man who has 21 per cent of injury? — A. My personal opinion would be so. Q. What is the opinion of those whom you have met — returned soldiers ? — A. Off- hand I have not had any direct complaint regarding that point either ; I don't remember. Q. You have not been long enough on the job yet? — A. No, but so far the number of complaints I have had, I have always found some good cause for the delay. The main complaints, I believe, have been greatly eliminated by the recent Orders in Council. Q. That is, the hiatus between the pay and the pension ? — A. Yes. Witnes!S discharged. Mr. L. E. LoAVMAX, representing Oxford County Returned Soldiers' Association, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. I imderstand you represent the Oxford County Returned Soldiers' Associa- tion? — A. Yes, and I am secretary of the Soldiers' Aid Commission for the district as well. Q. You were good enough to come here yesterday and to-day, so you have heard the general run of the testimony; we will leave it to yourself to add what you think will be helpful to this committee. — A. My chief trouble has been with employment after the men are discharged. Q. You come from Woodstock, I suppose? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. How many men enlisted in your county? — A. I couldn't tell you. I find that the manufacturers of Woodstock are willing to help as far as ever they can, but it appears to me that when they take a man who is not perfectly fit physically and give him a job and pay him the rate of wages that another man who is physically fit is getting that that returned soldier is getting charity, and I don't believe that it will last very long after the war, and there will be considerable trouble, because now only a few men are coming home and the employers are taking them, and it is a matter of charity in lots of cases, so that when a great number come back the employers won't be so willing to do it, and you will have considerable trouble. By the Chairman: Q. Do you mean by that that the men do not render service equal to the value they receive? — A. In lots of cases. Q. Less efficient? — A. Less efficient. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Are they going back to farm? — A. No, they won't go. I had seventy men return to Oxford county, some of them had worked on farms previously, and not one of them has returned. Q. To what do you attribute that? — A. I think the men have been used to practically seeing life for some considerable time, and they don't like the quietness of the farms afterwards. [Mr. Li. E. Lowman.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 831 Q. Don't they find farm life a paying one? — A. I think the hours are too long for them, and they have not got enough excitement. By Mr. Bennett: Q. I understand that in the cases of large numbers of men returned the employers absorb them in their industries? — A. I am certain of it. Q. And you attribute to the fact that possibly they do not get sufficient for what they have been through, their indisposition to go on farms? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. Your experience has been entirely with men who are no longer fit for military service? — A. Yes; a man is not discharged when he is fit. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You would hardly be warranted in coming to a general conclusion when you are dealing only with disabled men; or do you mean to refer to the large number of disabled men ?— A. Well, most of the men that come back are affected in some way. Take for instance a man I had back last week; he was a piano- finisher by trade previous to enlistment. He was gassed out in France. When he returned he was advised by the doctors to keep away from varnishes and turpentine and things of that sort. I found that previous to enlistment he was earning $2.75 a day.^ He was awarded a pension of $8 a month, and the best job I could get him was in a shell factory at $2 a day. By the Chairman: Q. Was he a married man? — A. Yes, two children. Q. Formerly lived in Woodstock? — A. Yes. Q. Consequently wanted to engage in Woodstock? — A. Yes. Q. Do you think that was lack of appreciation on the part of the manufacturers or lack of lucrative positions in Woodstock? — A. I do not know. My suggestion would be that a committee be appointed in each district, similar to the Soldiers' Aid Commission, to be represented in each district by a committee; that there should be some returned soldiers on that committee and that that committee have power in a commercial capacity to estimate the disability of that man, and for a certain period, say from six months to a year, that that man be granted a certain amount of money on top of his pay until he is properly re-instated in the commercial world. Q. If he has been discharged with a pension, he already receives ? — A. This man I was speaking of was getting $2.75 before enlistment, and he is getting $2 a day now and a pension. The majority of my work has been confined to Woodstock up to the present time. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Do you not think there are too many organizations? Do you not think it would be better in the hands of one organization? — A. I think it would make it quite a bit easier. Q. And make it better for all the soldiers? — A. Yes. Q. And that association would have a secretary, like yourself, who had been overseas, and would be composed of representatives from all the municipalities and towns and returned soldiers. Do you think you would get better results? — A. I think you would have an ideal committee if you had the money to spend. Q. There are too many organizations now performing the same work? — A. Yes, they are overlapping. Q. And there is no co-relation of effort. They do not relate the efforts of one body to the other? — A. No, that is the real trouble. [Mr. L. E. Lowman,! 832 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— G.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. And in your view the only way to accomplish anything for the benefit of the men is to have a central organization, everybody represented, and all exerting them- selves in an endeavour to procvire work for the men? — A. Yes. Q. Employment, help, pay and everything in one association? — A. Yes, I think it is the only way. By the Chairman: Q. You are the secretary of the Soldiers' Aid Commission for Oxford county? — A. Yes. Q. And likewise of the returned soldiers?— A. Yes. Q. So that you really are the point of unification? — A. Yes. Q. Have you any committee to back you up? Have you any local committee in Oxford county? — A. Yes, there is a committee composed of the mayor and six other prominent citizens of Woodstock. Q. Are they active in helping you? — A. No. Q. They leave it to you? — A. They have agreed to leave the work entirely to the Returned Soldiers' Association which was doing it for six or eight months previous to the time the association came there. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. How long since the branch of the Returned Soldiers' Aid Association was established there? — A. Not more than seven or eight weeks, I think. Q. When men are returned home do you receive word from headquarters that these men are about to arrive ? — A. No. The Toronto Branch of the Ontario Returned Soldiers Association promised to inform me, but it is hard to keep track of them. Q. Very often there is no one to receive them and not having received an enthusiastic reception at the port of landing, after arriving home there is no one to receive them? — A. No. Q. They feel the matter keenly ? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. In the case of casualties, how does the news reach the family? — A. It goes to the wife. Q. Not through you? — A. No. Q. Do you not think it would be better to have the news sent to some one in the locality? — A. There is no doubt about that. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. Have you known any cases where the news was sent at midnight? — A. No. By Mr. Bennett: Q. It is supposed to be sent before midnight? — 'A. Yes. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Do you know how many of the men who came from Oxford county came from the farm originally? — A. I do not know. Q. There may not have been any who came from the farm? — A. Oh, there was some. Q. But none of them wanted to go back on the land? — A. No. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. As a matter of fact have not a number of men returned to various parts of the county who have not reported to you? — A. I do not think so. Q. Take those from Ingersoll A. There is quite a number in Ingersoll, but they have a separate association of their own in Ingersoll. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Oxford is an ideal farming county? — A. Yes. KECEPTIOX, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 833 By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Have any of your returned men been given employment in any official position in the county? — A. One has a position in the county jail. Q. Do you find there are a number of men disabled and not able to do work? — A. Quite a number of men are taken sick after they are discharged, not badly sick, but have to lay up two or three days at a time. Q. What do you do in their case? — A. The association lends them money. Q. And it is repaid? — A. If possible, but we do not press them for it. Q. Have you made representations *to the Government in regard to the matter? — A. No. There are only two or three anyw^ay. By Mr. Sutherland : Q. Have you any suggestions to offer with regard to the matter of assistance to the association? You have to finance it yourself at the present time. Have you applied to the Provincial or Federal Government? Do you consider that you ought to receive some assistance from the Provincial Soldiers' Aid Commission? — A. Oh, I think so. I have been able to do the work myself and have had lots of time to spare in the day time, but I think the man in charge of that work in Woodstock should be paid a salary. It takes me about 8 hours a day. I have to keep steadily at it for 8 hours every day of the week. In fact those are my office hours. Q. Do you see anything to prevent a notice being sent to some one in authority in the various towns and villages throughout the country when soldiers are returning? Would it not create a better feeling on th^ part of the returned men if something of that kind were done? — A. It certainly would. Q. How many returned soldiers are there in the county? — A. About seventy-five. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. What was your occupation previous to enlisting? — A. I was a restaurant- keeper. Q. What is your opinion about the desirability and feasibility of returned soldiers going on the land? — A. They do not seem to want to go on the land. Q. Do you think they should go? Do you think there is an opening there to make a profitable and satisfactory living? — A. I should think probably some of them would prefer to go on the farm if the matter were put to them properly. Q. Have you put it to them? — A. I have not anything to put at present. Q. Is there any demand for farm hands in the vicinity of Woodstock? — A. I guess tliere is quite a bit of demand for farm assistants. Q. Mr. Sutherland leads us to believe that Oxford is a great farming section and that thcro is quite a demand for farm help. — A. There is quite a demand for farm labour but the men will not go to work on farms. Some of them would take farms of their own if that were possible, and if the scheme were developed in the right way. By the Chairman : Q. Would they take them in the Xorth country? — A. I don't think so. Q. Tliey would want ready-made farms in old-fashioned settlements? — A. We have had one or two gentlemen address the returned soldiers on the subject of farms in the North country and they have not given the boys a very good opinion of that country. As a matter of fact they tell me they would be eaten up with sand flies in summer and frozen in the winter. Witness discharged. The Chair^iax: Thei'e are four witnesses present from Wiiniipeg. We would like to hear first from ^fr. Penrce, Secretary of the Returned Soldiers ^Manitoba Commis- sion. [Mr. L. E. Lowman,] 28277—53 834 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—IiETUHyED SOLDIERS Mr. A. Pearce, Winnipeg, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: ' Q. I understand yon are the Secretary of the Provincial Association ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That looks after the interests of the returned soldiers in Manitoba ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. AYere you incorporated by charter of the Provincial Government? — A. No, sir, through an Order in Council. Q. Does the Order in Council create a Committee? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Who are the members of that Committee ? — A. Sir Daniel MacMillan, Mr. A. M. Nanton, Mr. E. W. Waugh, Mr. J. H. Ashdown, Mr. G. V. Hastings, Mr. Gl W. Allan, K.C., and Mr. J. S. Wilmot of Brandon. There are also two members who are ex-officio of the Returned Soldiers' Association, T. Hi. Hooper and F. J. Baker — and the Manitoba Representative of the Military Hospitals Commission, Lt.-Col. 0. W. Rowley. Q. Is there any representative on the Committee of the Great War Veterans* Association? — A. No, sir. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. What is the name of your association ?— A. The Returned Soldiers Manitoba Commission. By the Chairman: Q. These gentlemen are all leading citizens of standing in the Province of Mani- toba?— A. Yes. Q. Will you tell us what your Provincial Association undertakes to do ? — Has the Provincial Association taken over the responsibility of finding employment for all returned men and caring for them? — A. It has not taken over, sir, the''whole respon- sibility. It only undertakes as far as is possible to find employment. Q. Are you the only agency that undertakes to do that in Manitoba? — A. No, sir. The Great War Veterans' Association are to some extent finding employment for returned soldiers also. Q. That is for members of their own organization? — A. Yes. I might also add that they work in conjunction with myself. If they have a situation vacant and have no man to fill it they immediately call my office up. If we have a situation vacant which we cannot fill, we call them up. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. You co-operate in the matter of finding employment? — A. Yes, sir. By the Chairman: Q. Do you find that two organizations doing the same work are preferable to one? — A. I think that the efforts in regard to employment should be centralized. Q. You think that one or the other ought to assume the entire duty of findingj employment? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Will you tell us something regarding the situation in Manitoba? How many) soldiers have returned from overseas to the province? — A. Up to February 8th, 1,304. j By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. How many have returned to the city and how many to the country?,— A. l] cannot give you that information sir. A great many of the men who enlisted at country points, being single men, did not return to those country points where they] enlisted, but stayed right in Winnipeg. By the Chairman: Q. Is Winnipeg the Distributing Centre for Manitoba? — A. Yes, sir. [Mr. Albert Pearce.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDTJ CATION 835 Q. So that all Manitoba men who come back should report at Winnipeg? — A. Every one. Q. That represents the total number who have returned to Manitoba? — A. To Manitoba. Q. What disposition has been made of them? — A, 496 are still on the pay roll. Q. Are they in hospital? — A. No, sir, some are out-patients and some are in the Hospital. I can give you the number in hospital if you wish. Q. I think that would be advisable. — A. Although I might add that that work really comes under the Military Hospitals Commission. The Chairman : If you are able to do so give us information regarding all these activities. Bij Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. When you say that a certain number of men are on the pay roll, what do you mean? — A. On the pay roll of the Casualty Department. By the Chmrman: Q. They are not yet discharged? — A. Not yet discharged. Q. You do not mean men on the pay roll of your Association? — A. No, sir. Now, in Convalescent Homes and Hospitals, there are about 220 meii. Q. The remainder, I suppose, are out-patients? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you sufficient bed accommodation in Manitoba for all returned soldiers •who are active patients ? — A. I could not give that information. We have never taken that.matter up at all, but it is being dealt with by the Military Hospitals Commission. Q. I am asking you, as an impartial authority who knows the situation, for a frank opinion? — A. We will have, sir, in about a week or ten days' time, accommoda- tion for more men than have come back at the present moment. I am now referring to the Agricultural College buildings, which will be ready for the reception of patients in about a week or ten days — in fact I w^ould not be surprised if the buildings were ready now — and these alone will accommodate 750 men. Q. So that on or after the 1st of April you will have accommodation for 750 men at least? — A. We will have accommodation, sir, for 900. Q. Accommodation for 900 men at least? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And you consider that ample for present or immediately future needs? — A. Well, I do not know as to that. Q. I mean as nearly as you can judge from past requirements? — A. Yes, from past requirements. Q. Please continue to tell us about those men who have come back? — A. Out of the 1,304 who have returned, 812 are men who have returned from France and 492 .nen who have returned from England. Q. You do not bother yourself with camp cases? — A. No, sir. Q. I mean men who have been discharged after a month or two of service in this L'ountry? — A. We do not officially look after them, sir. If any of them come in and we have a situation which we are not able to fill with a returned soldier, we give it to them. Q. The man from overseas has the priority claim? — A. The man from overseas. Q. Do you make any difference in your treatment between a man who has gone overseas to England and the man who has gone overseas to France? — A. If there is preference we give it to the man who has been to France. Q. Now, go on with your statistics please? — A. I would like to say that the com- mission started on January 1, 1910. From that date to February 28, 1917, we found 916 positions.' Q. That was in fourteen months? — A. Yes, sir. I should say that 617 men filled those 916 positions. Q. On an average you require three positions to suit two men? — A. That is it, sir. [Mr. Albert Pearce.] 28277—534 836 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Were those positions all in Winnipeg? — A. No, all over Manitoba, sir. By the Chairman: Q. Now, you can classify those 617 men you placed as to the character of the employment you obtained for them? — A. No, sir, I cannot, not here. Q. Do you know what proportion of them went onto the land? — A. Not one per cent, sir. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Why ? — A. Fortunately, we have had plenty of situations offering in Winnipeg, and the men prefer, I find, to stay around large centres where there is more company, more life, and where there are shorter hours of labour than on farms. By the Chairman: Q. What has been your experience with employers as to their attitude towards those returned men? — A. Regarding the salaries they offer, sir? Q. Yes, their general attitude? — A. Of course, you will always find that some men want men to work for nothing, or under the scale. Q. You find that attitude in Manitoba also? — A. Yes, sir. As a rule, the posi- tions have been fairly remunerative. They have not really taken into account the extra cost of living in the West. Q. When giving employment to a man does the employer want to take into account that "he is getting a pension ? — A. No, sir. As soon as he starts in to men- tion pension we have nothing whatever to do with him. Q. You tell him that is none of his business? — A. That is none of his business. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Do you find employers making any difference in the case of returned men? — A. No, sir, not the large employers. I know that Eaton's in Winnipeg are employing a man with a total disability, and although that man does not do more than one or two hours' work per day he receives the same salary now as prior to enlistment. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Was he previously employed by that firm? — A. Yes. Bit/ the Chairman: Q. You heard the representative from Oxford say that these positions often were given from a feeling of charity. Do you think the men whom you have placed have been placed on their merits so that they can hold their positions if that feeling should cool off? — A. Strictly so, sir. Q. Do you feel that any lessening of sympathy would put these men out of their positions? — A. I do not think so, as long as the men act as they are acting toi-day. You will find N.G.'s wherever you go. I went through my reports about two months ago to find out the men who were really no class, and I am pleased to say out of the 617 men there were only two really that I would care to classify as N.G. Q. Those two men you tried to find employment for over and over again because they had left their jobs on some trivial excuse? — A. Only two out of 617. Q. That is a splendid record. After you ceased trying to find positions for these two -men what did you do with them? — A. I think one ceased because I told him what I thought of him. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Of those 617 men placed by your Commission how many have been placed in public positions, either municipal, provincial or federal. ai)proximatoly how many?— A. You would not care for me to include those placed in the Post Office during the Tush season. ! [Mr. Albert Pearce.] RECEPTIOX, TREATMEST .l.YD RE-EDUCATION 837 • Q. No. — A. About TO, sir, in the Customs, Post Office and other federal and pro- vincial departments. Q. From the fibres you give us a strange deduction may be drawn. You say that 804 of the men who returned to Manitoba have been to France, and if I remember the figures, 492 have never seen France. That is a large proportion, 33i per cent never reached France. Why was that? — A. Various causes, flat feet, tubercular trouble. Q. Mostly unfitness? — A. Absolutely all medically unfit to proceed to France. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Were flat feet made an objection to enlistment in Manitoba? — A. I have seen, or rather known, of men being turned down for that. I have been told of a woodsman, strong, healthy, robust, who, on being before the Medical Officer, was turned down on account of flat feet. Bij Hon. Mr. Ross: Q. He was a good man? — A. Absolutely the very best manhood that could pos- sibly be. B>! Mr. Middlehro: Q. I want to find out if I can how much there is in this " back to the land " pro- posal. I suppose the 617 men were principally those who left with the first contingent? -A. Yes. Q. Would they be men principally recruited from the city districts? — A. Yes. Q. Would you be safe in saying that 90 per cent would be recruited from the city districts? — A. Yes. sir. If there was a suitable land scheme adopted whereby the tlovernment would take paternal care of these men, I think 10 per cent of the men would go back to the land. By the Chairman: Q. Has the Provincial Government developed any scheme of that character? — A. Xo, sir. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Do you know the number out of the 017 recruited from the farms? — A. No, sir, it is a very hard matter to get it. A man will class himself as a labourer, and that is all his paper shows when he comes back. Q. You cannot say then that a single man of those 617 had been on the farm liefore he enlisted? — A. I can say that some of the men to my own knowledge were on farms before they enlisted. Q. But only six out of 617 have e^cpressed a desire for farming or have gone hack onto the land? — A. That is all, sir. Q. In your opinion do you think that is going to be the proportion all the v.ay through unless some special inducement is made? — A. I honestly think so, sir. Q. I see. Have the men in any way intimated what kind of inducement they would require in order to go back on the land? — A. They are talking of financial assistance all the time. Q. In what way? — A. The Government either making them a grant or furnishing the money for them to buy their homes and to erect their buildings and seed, and to buy stock, horses and implements. By Brigadier-General Mason: Q. In other words, present them with an outfit? — A. Yes. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Give them the land and a complete outfit, do they want these out and out or as a loan to be repaid? — A. No, sir, a loan, financial assistance. Q. To be rL^jaid at some rate of interest ? — A. Yes. [Mr. Albert Pearce.] 838 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Even those who have had no previous experience as farmers want these induce- ments? — A. I have had several of those, sir, making inquiries. Q. Would you advise putting men on the farms who had no previous experience? — A. Decidedly not. I mentioned the Government taking a paternal care of the men ; in any land scheme it seems to me there would necessarily have to be a distinction drawn between a man who is a qualified farmer and a man who has not been on the land before. You could not treat them on the same basis. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. Have you an agricultural college in Manitoba? — A. Yes, sir, a very fine one. Q. So you have all the facilities to give returned soldiers agricultural instruc- tion before putting them on the land if they require it? — A. Yes. Q. Has that fact ever been brought to the notice of the returned soldiers? — A. Yes. Q. And notwithstanding that they do not care about it? — A. Well, they want to know what will be the use of their taking that course without — Q. Without any capital? — A. — without some scheme being evolved whereby they can make a success of it. Q. You do not know whether your Government have any such scheme in con- templation? — A. I cannot answer, sir. Q. In this province, I think, and in New Brunswick, there is no land legislation for returned soldiers specially, but there are inducements for any one desiring to take up land. You do not know whether your Government has undertaken, or intends to undertake, anything of that kind? — A. No, I believe the Rural Credit Bill is under consideration. Q. You spoke just now of the large number of soldiers that you have looked after, who have never gone to the front, and spoke of them all as rejected men. Did not some of these cases occur on account of accident or illness contracted in camp during training? That is, healthy men became disabled on account of accident or illness contracted in camp? — A. Yes, sir. There is a large number included in those figures. Q. Have you any idea of the proportion of men that will come under that class i — A. No, sir, but I would say there would be about 40 per cent.- Q. So that about 40 per cent of them would not be classed under medical rejects but would be cases of illness contracted during training, etc.? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. You have, in your capacity, a great deal to do with the departments at Ottawa, have you not? — A. Yes. Q. What experience have you had in getting matters rectified? — A. Regarding any particular branch? Q. Regarding any matters aft'ecting the welfare of the soldiers. Naturally when a returned soldier comes to you looking for employment or anything of that kind, if there is any other service you can render him, you do it? — A. Yes. Q. And you undertake to straighten things out for him if you can? — A. Naturally, we are practically a clearing house for the whole of the man's troubles. Q. Tell us about these troubles, what they are, and how many of them you havo handled? — A. The greatest trouble we had was the non-arrival of the last pay certi- ficate, it would sometimes take a month or six weeks after the man's arrival home before his cheque came there. When the men arrived back in Canada it seems to me that there should not be that unnecessary delay. [Mr. Albert Pearce.] • RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 839 Q. When a man arrives back in Canada, discharged, he brings his pay certificate back with him ? — A. His pay sheets and papers are supposed to come back with him. Q. Do many men arrive in Manitoba without those papers? — A. Those papers are sent back on the ship^with him, they go direct to Ottawa. Q. Does his last pay certificate go to Ottawa? — A. That goes on to Ottawa. Q. And do the men arrive in Manitoba without their pay book? — A. In the case of a Chiss I man, his cheque is generally given to him. Q. That is because he is discharged? — A. Yes, but in the case of Class II and Class III men, their pay certificates have been held up. Q. It does not make much difference to the Class II men, because you put them in hospital as soon as they arrive? — A. But a good many of them are married men. Q. But he has the Patriotic Fund? — A. The Patriotic Fund, as soon as a man arrives back, cuts him off the list. If he is still in Class II, they claim because he is in receipt of 60 cents a day as subsistence it should not cut him off the list. Q. That is a case where the man is an out-patient, but if he is sent to the Hospital? — A. On two occasions I have gone to the Patriotic Fund and asked that he be rein- stated. Q. The man who is an out-patient gets certain allowances which total $Yl a month, for the man and his wife without children. Is $71 a month too little for him to subsist on? — A. Prior to that time the man's wife was receiving more than that when he was away. Q. She was receiving more than that from all sources? — A. From the Patriotic Fund, and Assigned Pay and Separation Allowance. Q. But should he sufl'er any hardship on $71 a month? — A. $71 a month does not go very far in the West at the present moment. " By Mr. Bennett: Q. How long has your organization been in existence? — A. Since November, 1915. Q. And since that time your organization has been engaged in the work? — A. The Returned Soldiers'' Association existed prior to the formation of the Returned Soldiers' Manitoba Association. Q. You are a provincial corporation? — A. Yes. Q. Authorized by Statute? — A. By Order in Council. Q. There is a Veterans' Association ? — A. Yes. Q. With different branches? — A. Yes. Q. That is a voluntary association, not incorporated? — A. The Returned Soldiers' Association is incorporated. Q. I was struck with the fact the other day that apparently the organizations are not uniting in their efforts to obtain a common purpose? — A. There was a case in which a conflict occurred, the facts in which I am intimately acquainted with. I have handled Private James Laidlaw from the day he returned to Winnipeg, and the treatment he received from the day be came back did not redound to the credit of the Militia Department. Q. What I want to ask you is this, is it not quite clear that it would be in the interest of the returned soldiers, and of- everybody else, if these -two organizations could hannonize their efforts in some way? — A. It would be better decidedly. Friction never produces satisfactory results. Q. And does it not strike you sometimes that there is danger that the multiplicity of organizations has a tendency to produce friction and tliereby prevent the best results being obtained. Has not the returned soldier been "exploited" sometimes? — A. We have had several occasions in Winnipeg where the Commission has put its foot down strongly. It would be decidedly better if there were one body dealing entirely with the returned soldiers. [Mr. Albert Pearce.] 840 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.—RETLNyKD SOLDIERS Q. And the Returned Soldiers' Association is composed entirely of returned soldiers? — A. No, the directors of the association are all civilians. Q. And the membership is also indiscriminate, returned soldiers and civilians? — A. Yes. Q. Does it not strike you that some method could be devised by which we could get harmony among all the organizations in Manitoba? — A. Yes, there are only two organizations in Manitoba working along these lines, but we have a large number of local associations who look after the men from their own locality when they return. Q. But they are not branches of this central organization? — A. No. Q. Does it not strike you that it should be under central control in Manitoba, if possible, if we are going to get the best results-^of course, with branches throughout the entire province? — A. It could hardly pay, because there has to be an element of financial assistance given to the men after their discharge, and also to the widows and children. Q. One organization surely could do that, with branches throughout the province, to prevent overlapping and duplication all over? — A. The funds that they have have been subscribed by the public, whereas we on the Provincial Government body do not distribute any funds whatever. Q. That is just what I was going to get at. Your organization has no control over money? — A. No, sir. Q. Of any kind?— A. Of any kind. Q. And it cannot render any assistance to the soldier at all ? — A. No, sir. The offices of the Returned Soldiers' Association are in my building, and as ^soon as a man comes into me for transportation or financial assistance I at once turn him over to the Returned Soldiers' Association. Q. All the directors of whom are civilians? — A. Yes. . Q. And then we have the Great War Veterans' Association, composed wholly of men who have fought in this war? — A. Not wholly, I believe; I believe they take men who have been overseas. Q. Your observation leads you to conclude that a central effort would be better, would it not? — A. I would like to qualify that and say that the assistance now in force seems to be working, as regards financial assistance to the men. Q. I am talking of the benefit to the soldiers as a whole, not merely about finan- cial assistance? — A. I hold a rather individual position. As you know, Mr. Bennett, there has been somewhat of a friction there, and I would rather not answer your questions, if you excuse me. Q. Have you any suggestions to make as to how a case like that of Laidlaw could be dealt with, how difficulties of returned soldiers could be overcome? — A. I may say to the Committee that this is the case of an unfortunate young man who lost his leg at the hip, and who is still without an artificial limb, and who was pensioned on a very small pension, and really could not live for a month on what was given to him the last two or three months before he came back ; what have you to say as to what should be done to overcome a case like that? Owing to the change in the Pension Board, in the amount of pensions, such a case could not occur again. He was a married man with three children, with the loss of his left leg from the hip, being sent ovit onto the streets with the miserable sum of $16 a month, unable to work, sick, having to go into hospital. It was a downright, crying shame. Q. By whom was that done? — By the Pensions Board? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Are there many cases, or is there only one? — A. That is the most flagrant one. We have several cases, not quite so bad. Q. What are they getting? — A. Since the new regulations have gone in force their pensions have been increased. [Mr. Albert Pearce.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 841 By the Chairman: Q. You have no cases at present? — A. No. By Hon. Mr. Boss (Moosejaw) : Q. What is Laidlaw getting now? — A. $50. He is taking vocational training at tho Military Hospitals Commission, who augment his monthly allowance by $26; he gets $76. By Hon. Mr. Daniel: Q. He was put in class 4, 40 per cent injury? — A. I don't know what class he was put in. By Mr. Bennett: Q. The new regulations providing that pay shall be continued up to the date of the delivery of the first pension cheque, plus the new pension provision as to local representation, you think have done a great deal to cure the defects that were appar- ently in the early part of the administration ?^-A. Will we be guaranteed that that man will not be discharged until the delivery of his pension cheque? Q. Oh yes; there will be no interval of time when he is not on pay or pension; there is no interval of time on which a man ceases to .be on pay until such time as his pension begins; there is no hiatus. The CHAnJMAX : That is the new Order in Council. The Witness: Why I raised that point was > By Mr. Bennett: Q. If the facts are as I have stated, that would seem to overcome the difficulties that you have raised? — A. It would seem to. Q. If there was no interval of time when pay ceases there would be very little difficulty? — A. There would be very little difficulty. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Do you find many of your men really dissatisfied by the pensions that have been awarded to them? — A. Yes, a certain few. Q. What class, particularly? — A. Mostly those that have been discharged with a gratuity. Q. That is not a pension; I meant in the pension class do you find many really dissatisfied? — A. There are quite a number that have been discharged without any pension, you might say; with a gratuity. I have a case of a man liere, a married man with seven children, who was discharged last August with a gr:Kuity of $75. Q. Is there any objection to giving his name? — A. No; it is Corporal W. Stirling, No. 51440, P. P. C.L.I. After this man was discharged I reported this case to the A.D.M.S., Major Riley, who at once'ordered this man's removal to hospital. He was kept in the hospital for six solid weeks, and at the present moment is only able to do a job where there is no responsibility whatever. He is suflfering from loss of memory, general lassitude — well, general debility, you might say. By the Chairman : Q. Do I understand his pension has been settled? — A. He has no pension. Q. Do you understand that it is possible to make application to have a man like that reboarded and sent back to the hospital, in which case his pension will be recon- sidered? — A. One of the questions I have down on my list was: "Men reboarded, given medical attention; will the new Order in Council be retroactive?" If that new Order in Council is retroactive, then it will take in cases that I have here. Q. The understanding at present is that if a man's pension has been settled, or a man has been dismissed without pension on the understanding that he is not going to get a pension and he breaks down he has a right to be re-boarded and sent back to the hosi)ital, he lias a right to h.ave his case considered again and is entitled to be [Mr. Albert Pearce.] 842 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS repen'sioned ?— A. Yes, but will that order be made retroactive ?— It was only last week I had to go to the D.O.C. in Winnipeg and apply for the release of a soldier in the Expeditionary Force from Winnipeg to have him come back so as to be able to support a brother, a returned soldier and his wife and mother, simply because the man had been reboarded and operated upon, and for four months has not received a dollar By Mr. Bennett: Q. When this man is finally discharged, after having gone back, the matter is ()ver; his pay will run no longer? — A. We have had no definite instructions as to that, and that is the reason I am raising the question so as to get some assurance in the matter. The Chairman : When a man breaks down after he is discharged, he can be sent to the hospital and reattested, and he comes back and can receive an allowance, and obtain a benefit from the Patriotic Fund the same as before, and when he has run his second course he comes up again for consideration. The Witness: In reference to reboarding men I would like to pay a tribute to the ofiicer commanding the M.H.C. and the A.D.M.S. In every case when we have asked for a man's reboarding we have had it, and medical attention is given to him at, once. By the Chairman: Q. You have no complaint to make as to the co-operation of the representatives of the military authorities in that respect? — A. None whatever. Q. Quite the contrary? — A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. I understood you to say that you had not endeavoured to find any positions for men on the farms in the West ? — A. No, sir. I beg pardon, we have endeavoured to find positions. We have awaiting 50 or 60 positions, ranging from $40 to $50 a month, awaiting on the books for men to fill them. Q. Do you find the men take kindly to going on the farms? — A. No, sir. Q. Is there any reason for that at all that you can give? — A. Except simply that whilst there are situations offering in Winnipeg, the men would prefer to take those and stay around the city, where they meet their fellow companions and comrades, and where there is company and life. Q. Did some of these men who are now taking positions in Winnipeg enlist originally from the farm? — A. I cannot say definitely, because our information does not give us that. Q. You get no ^complaints of ill-treatment on the farm? — A. No; there is a general complaint of long hours, but the men who go on the farms must make up their minds they will accept the conditions. Q. In your opinion are men who have been gassed and that sort of thing desirable men to send on a farm, or do you care to give an opinion on that? — A. I am not a medical man, but I have seen the results of gas, and we have had several deaths of men who have been gassed dying from tubercular trouble, and drawing an analogy, I would say the two were going hand in hand — gas and tubercular trouble. By the Chairman: Q. Are there any Provincial Government provisions giving special opportunities for men going on the land in Manitoba? — A. No. Q. Any talk of passing such legislation? — A. No. I believe our attorney-general was attending the conference here a week ago. Q. Do the lands generally belong to the province or the Dominion? — A. To the Dominion. Q. There is not much land belonging to the province to be disposed of? — A. No. [Mr. Albert Pearce.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 843 Q. It would be a Dominion project? — A. Yes. Q. Do you think the talk about the free farms and that sort of thing has caused the returned soldiers to hold back from agricultural employment, waiting for other terms? — A. JNo, sir. By Mr. tiutherland : Q. Just along that line about the lack of interest in farm work on the part of the returned soldier, would you attribute it to unsettled conditions of the men who have taken an active part in the war, the war still being unfinished, and their having an intense desire to keep in close touch with events as they occur for instance at the present time, to know almost to the minute or the hour what is happening at the front? Do you think that has anything to do with it? — A. I do not; because the men do not seem to want to talk about what they have seen and gone through. Their whole idea seems to be to forget it and get away from it. By Mr. Middlelro: Q. Do you know of any indiscriminate or unauthorized appeals for money on behalf of those who should not be soliciting? — A. Yes. As I said before, we have had to put our foot down several times. In fact I locked one woman up. I went after her and had her arrested myself and took her into the police court. Q. Do you think there should be some legislation making people register or get some legal authority for doing this? — A. In the city of Winnipeg — I am not speaking for Manitoba — we have a civic charity bureau, that any church or any other society asking for subscriptions must first come and obtain the consent of the Civic Charity Bureau. Q. That is a splendid idea I think ?— A. In fact these business houses of the city do not give any contributions unless the scheme has been endorsed by the Civic Charities Bureau. You will see notices in the stores and banks. Q. What would you think ofl a general Dominion law covering the whole Dominion? — A. I would like to see it. Q. Do you think it would be a good idea? — A. Yes By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Is there not a tendency among the younger people of Canada to leave the country and go into the cities? It is not confined to the military class, but generally? — A. I have never yet found it, and I have lived in Manitoba 16 years. Q. Is there not a movement towards the city from the country? — A. No, sir, not to my own knowledge. 1 think when the serious problem of demobilization comes into force and we will be crowded out with the men in the city who cannot find employ- ment, perhaps a large proportion of these men who have been used to the country and farm life will go back to the country. Q. There is a serious shortage of farm labour in Manitoba? — A. Most decidedly, when you know that the wages they are offering to-day are $50 a month and board. By Hon. Mr. Ross : * Q. The wages are better than those paid in town, so far as that goes? — A. Better than those paid in town. By lion. Mr, Marcil: Q. When many of these men enlisted, was the promise given to them that their jobs would be kept open for them upon their return ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you found that promise has been generally kept? — A. It has been kept. Q. The promise has been well kept no matter what the man's position was in private life? — A. Yes, sir. The C.P.R. sent to my office a notice that they had printed themselves, to this effect : " Any man who worked for this Company prior to enlistment [Mr. Albert Pearce.] 844 SPECIAL COM MITTEE—C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS and is desirous of re-eutcring our cmploymont, will apjjly to ]\Ir. Gray, Superintendent of Records." That notice has been printed by the C.P.R. and is hung up in my office. Q. Is there a way by which the returned soldier can post himself exactly as to v/hat the pension regulations are, aiKi the various amendments which have been made from time to time? — Is there any place where he can get documents showing what the state of affairs is? — A. Yes, sir, at the office of the Returned Soldiers' Manitoba Com- mission. By the Chairman: ■ Q. Which you represent? — A. Which I represent. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Do you find that the returned soldiers apply for this information? Is the information pretty well disseminated throughout the country? — A. Yes, sir. Up to a short time ago we handled at the office of our Commission at least 75 per cent of the whole of the pensions granted in Winnipeg. Then the Pension Board appointed another gentleman over our heads. I qualify that by a statement that to a large extent we have handed the work over to them, that is, of looking after the i)ensions for the returned boys. By the Chairman : Q. Who now represents the Pensions Board in Winnipeg? — A. Mr. Solandt, Secretary of the Manitoba Patriotic Fund. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Can any man with a grievance, or a fancied grievance, get a hearing? — A. Every time, whether it be man, woman or child. By the Chairman: Q. Is Mr. Solandt still connected with the Patriotic Fund? — A. I believe so, sir. There are one or two points more which I would like to raise, if I have your permission. One deals with increase of pension, if you will allow me to discuss that at this meeting. The Ckairisian : Very well, let us hear your views. The WiTiNESS: The sum of $32 a month seems totally inadeiiuate to maintain a woman in that Western country. By the Chairman : Q. When she has any children, do you mean? — A. Even when she has no children. You must remember that a good many of these men who have given up their lives on the battlefield, or otherwise, during this war, were in good standing. Men who gave up salaries of from $200 to $300 a month. I am giving you facts when I say this: and to ask these women to come down and live on $32 a month, why, it is a sum which will hardly pay for a room. I can tell you of numbers of cases in Winnipeg where men prior to their enlistment had been purchasing houses and had perhaps $1,000 or $1,500 or $2,000 locked up in those houses. Those men have been killed and the money which they invested has gone to the mortgagor, and $32 a month seems a terribly small smn to keep a woman respectable on. Q. Do you feel that there is any necessity in Canada in view of the differing cost of living in the several provinces, of an organization to take care of widows similar to the Patriotic Fund? — A. That savours too much of charity. I would rather see the pensions increased. Q. How would you manage to increase the pensions, would you adjust the pen- sions in accordance with the cost of living as it obtains in the several provinces? — A. I would adjust the pensions according to districts but not according to disablement. Q. You would adjust the pensions according to the districts? — A. Yes, sir. [Mr. Albert Pearce.] RECEPTIOS, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 845 By Mr. Middlehro: Q. But the cost of living would be fluctuating all the time? — A. Or there might be some other solution of the difficulty. By Hon. Mr. Ross: Q. The payment made is too low for Manitoba, bearing in mind the conditions there ^— A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. Do you say that the payment is too low, bearing in mind Manitoba condi- tions ? — A. Well, I should say for western conditions. I am not alluding to Manitoba particularly, but to the country west of the Great Lakes. Take a payment of $6 a month for a child, and it is insufficient' to feed it, let alone buy boots, clothes and school books. Then there is another point: We feel that a widowed mother's pension should be the same as a widow's. At present the rate of payment to the widowed mother is only $24 a month, whereas you give the widow $32. Does the widowed mother, may I ask, eat less than the widow? By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Have you a western man on the Pensions Board? — A. I cannot say, sir. Q. Do you think it is in the interest of returned soldiers that the Pensions Board I should hold meetings periodically in one place at least in every province? — A. No, sir, ' I would like to see a permanent Pensions Board in a central position. Q. For instance, the present Pensions Board sits at Ottawa? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Would it be to the advantage of the returned soldier that meetings of the I Board should be held in Winnipeg, where a man wlio has a grievance could appear and state his case? — A. That would be better. ' Q. Has that been suggested? — A. I don't know that it has. Hon. Mr. Marcil: The conditions, I understand from your statement, are dif- ferent in the west from what they are in the east. By the Chairman : Q. Would you be good enough to continue your observations? — A. I see by the 1 press that the English Government has instituted a new system of pensions, whereby they have graduated a man's pension according to his earning capacity before he enlisted. Under that system a private's pension has been raised from 27s. and 6d. j to 75s. I Q. Xot for a private? — A. Yes, sir. for a private. By Mr. Bennett: i Q. Not that much per week? — A. Yes, sir, I have a cutting here from a news- I paper--^ ' The Chaihman: I think 1 would not put in evidence anything you are not absolutely sure of. A newspaper clipping is hardly evidence which we could accept with regard to British pensions. Mr. MiDDLEBRO: Unless you know positively yourself. The Chairman: We have written over for a copy of the British Pensions Act, and when we get it we will insert it in the evidence. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Surely it must occur to you that the statement as applicable to pensions to I privates is wrong? — A. That is as I read the cutting from the newspaper. I The Chairman: I do not think I would put in a clipping from a newspaper on [Mr. Albert Pearce.] 846 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS this side of the Atlantic as evidence. Now, your idea is principally that each man's pension should depend upon what he earned before the war? The "WiTNCss: Yes, sir. By the Chairman: Q. Very well, we shall take that as your opinion. — A. Would it be possible, sir, to have an industrial survey made of the whole of the Dominion and obtain the results of that industrial survey. Mr. Bennett: That is being done. The Witness : What I am asking is to have the results of that Industrial Survey turned over to the Secretary of the Commission for each province. Mr. Bennett : The survey is confidential, otherwise we could not get the informa- tion. It may be possible to get a summary of it. The Witness : When the war is over, when the demobilization takes place and we have these men thrown on our hands, it will be quite a problem to get them placed. We have known to our cost that there are thousands of men eligible for military service who have never enlisted or offered their services. Now, if we^ could have this information we could bring pressure on their employers. , Mr. Bennett : That information will be available to any province if it is prepared to accept the responsibility, but you will observe the tendency is that the Dominion should accept the whole responsibility. The Witn^ess : I think that is about all I have to say, sir. I wish to thank you very much for your patient hearing. The Chairman: And we desire to thank you for coming to appear before us and for the valuable evidence which you have given. Witness discharged. The Chairman: Lieutenant Chadwick is here and has come down at our request to clear up the matter of the pay. Lieutenant Chadwick called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman : Q. W^hat position do you occupy in this city ? — A. I am Paymaster to the returned soldiers, sir, Q. We have had evidence not only here but in other places that men are dis- satisfied with the delays and the inaccuracies which occur in connection with their pay. Will you describe please to the Committee how you keep track of what is due a casualty starting from the time, if you can, when he is wounded ? — A. I have not had any experience in an overseas pay office, therefore I cannot start from there. I can start from the time the account is transferred to me from headquarters, Otta"wa. Q. From the time the account is transferred from Ottawa to you? — A. From Ottawa to the local unit. Q. Do you know anything about the transfer of the account from England to Ottawa? — A. All I know is that the soldier's documents and account, or his last pay certificate, come with the man on the boat he comes to Canada. Q. In whose custodianship? — A. I cannot say. Q. In that of the man himself or with the officer accompanying 'him? — A. Probably the officer accompanying him. Q. When a man comes to you here in Toronto does he bring with him his last pay certificate? — A. No, sir. Q. Does he bring with him his pay book? — A. All he has is his pay book. [Lieut. Chadwick.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 84/ Q. Does he return from overseas with his pay book? — A. Invariably. Q. What does that show? — A. That shows his account, balanced in England, on the date he sails for Canada. When he arrives at Quebec 'Tie is given an advance of about $10 cash. Q. Is that charged in his pay book? — A. That is charged in his pay book, and when he is transferred to the unit he is going to, an additional cheque of between $50 and $100, which varies according to the amount of the balance to the man's credit, is sent to tlie unit the man goes to accompanied by his documents. Q. It is sent from where to whence? — A. From Quebec to the unit where the man goes. Q. From Quebec to Toronto? — A. Yes, Toronto. Q. ]S[ot from Ottawa to Toronto? — A. No, not from Ottawa. And the man receives that cheque on arrival here. Q. And what does that represent? — A. That is merely an advance pending the adjustment of the man's account. Q. Intended to be less than the amount due to the man? — A. Yes, intended to be less than the amount dne him. Q. Tliat is paid him on arrival at Toronto while he is still down as a casualty? — A. Ye>. Q. And undischarged? — A. Undischarged, yes. Class 2. His account goes to Headquarters and the period of time varies from four to six weeks from the time the mnn arrives in the unit to the time that his account is transferred to me for payment. Q. That is four to six weeks' time are consumed? — A. From the time the man arrives in Toronto or at his destination. Q. Before you know just what is due him? — A. Before I have authority to pay him any further money. Q. Is that delay unnecessarily long? — A. It does seem unnecessarily long. Q. What are the necessary things that have to be done during that delay? — A. His account goes to Militia Headquarters, Ottawa, and is adjusted by the Accountant General's Department there; assigned pay and separation allowance cease, and are continued when the account is transferred to the casualty paymaster of whichever imLt he goes to. Q. Do you have many complaints from the men regarding their pay and allow- ances? — A. Yes, M'e have had some. Q. And after you investigated them, have you found many instances where the man was wrong? — A. No, very few; they are usually under a misunderstanding. Q. A misunderstanding that the man would lose by if he did not make com- plaint? — A. No, in the majority of cases the man has not figured his account out, and he thinks he has more money coming to him than he really has. Q. Do you take the trouble to figure the account carefully with the man and satisfy him? — A. Whenever I have a case of that kind I have him come in the oifice, and go over his pay book with him. Q. Is it well understood in all the military institutions here where discharged soldiers arc that when they come forward to be discharged they are entitled to come to 5'ou and have full consideration from you in definitely determining the amount that should be paid them? — A. Certainly, every time a man comes to me he gets com- plete satisfaction. Q. What happens when you cannot satisfy the man? — A. He has to accept the figures, the figures are right, that is all a man can expect. By lion. Mr. Marcil: Q. Is there any one to whom he can appeal if he is dissatisfied? — A. Yes, he can appeal to the ofiiccr commanding the ^lilitary Hospitals Commission Command, " D " Unit. [Lieut. Chadwick.] 848 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. In this district?— A. Yes. Q. Have there been any such cases to your knowledge? — A. There may have been one or two, sir, but they are very infrequent. Q. Do you know if the results were in favour of the men or against them in those cases, to your knowledge? Did those men succeed in their complaint, or were they overruled when they appealed from your decision? — A. Well, the explanation given to the O.C. is that the account is correct. If his account is correct, that is all there is to it. By the Chairman: Q. You assume that the account is infallible ?— A. The final payment on dis- charge is made up here. Q. You assume that the department is infallible. Supposing the man insists upon it that he has not been fairly treated in the matter of pay, is there any attempt to recheck his account in Ottawa or in England to make sure that there has been no mis- take? Mistakes sometimes happen, you know. — A. Frequently for past payments, but I was referring to payments computed in this district. Q. Computed only in this district. I do not suppose we get so many complaints as to just what he has earned after he arrives in Toronto, but about what is owed him while on overseas service, or in hospital abroad. Are such complaints retraced back to the ultimate sources with a view of checking the figures and finding out if there is any mistake? — A. His pay book is taken away from him and a list made and sent to Headquarters with the complaint a man has made, and frequently I get it in vpriting. Q. How long does it take Headquarters to investigate? — A. Between two and three months. Q. In the meantime the man is out of his money? — A. Yes. Q. Can you suggest any way in which an improvement can be made. We have received, not only here, but at other points, many criticisms from the soldiers about the dilatoriness, and in some cases, the incorrectness of the statement of their pay and allowances. Can you suggest anything to this Committee that we can recom- mend to the Government whereby there can be an improvement along that line? By Mr. Bennett: Q. I think one suggestion that would occur to you, Lieutenant, would be to get more men to do the w^ork promptly ? — A. That is what I was going to suggest, sir. But, I was thinking of something else to add to it, but I am afraid I cannot. By the Chairman: Q. Out with it? — A. There certainly seems to be a lack of swiftness in Ottawa, a lack of dispatch, in Ottawa. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. In other words, this L.P.C. goes from Quebec to Headquarters in Ottawa and it takes from four to six weeks to come back to you? — A. That is it. Mr. Boss: That is absolutely absurd. J Mr. Bknnett : In many instances, owing to the present condition of transatlantic mails, these certificates do not come on the same ship as the men, and delay is caused by that fact. In Ottawa we do not get mail now from the other side for two weeks or longer. That is one explanation that should be borne in mind. The Witness : I have one case of a man back from England for two months, and his last pay certificate did not come with him. That man has applied to me several times for money, and I have not the authority to pay him. [Lieut. Chadwick.] RECEPTIOX, TREATMENT AXD RE-EDUCATION 849 By the Chairman: Q. In the meantime he may be starving? — A. He is receiving treatment in a convalescent home, of course he is not living out. But I always refer these men to the Soldiers' Aid Commission, who advance them money from time to time. I explain the circumstances to them and they advance them a small amount of money. By Mr. Bennett: Q. I suppose the cables are still working. Would you let a man starve to death for the sake of a two-dollar cable bill ? — A. I have word from Headquarters that they have cabled, and letters have been written. Q. Officialism has become played out, the machine has worn down, that is the story, is it not? Speak without your uniform. The Chairman: I think we cannot compel the witness to answer that question. By Mr. Bennett: Q. The system wants more electricity? — A. That is it exactly, sir. The Chairman: I think you have got us to the bottom of things, Lieutenant. Unless you have something further to add you may retire. Witness discharged. Mr. A, C. Hay, President of the Great War Veterans' Association, Winnipeg, and Mr. F. W. Law^ Secretary, Great War Veterans' Association, Wimiipeg, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. ^Ir. Hay-, will you as President of the (ireat War Veterans' Association, Winnipeg, tell us something about the position of that organization and what you undertake to perform? — A. At the beginning, on the return of the men from the front, there was dissatisfaction amongst them from the fact that the civilians have not that sympathy with the returned soldiers that they should have. The consequence was that the returned soldiers originated a movement whereby they could come together, and promote their social welfare, and the friendship that was cemented during the most trying circumstances through the war. In that way, we removed the feeling that when a returned soldier went to a civilian it was made to appear in that he wanted charity. The boys would come to a man who had served alongside of them in the trenches and put their story before him, but they did not want to have civilians digging into their private affairs. Our membership exceeds 700, all returned soldiers; with the exception of one or two that were hit with a Zeppelin ■when in England, or injured by being kicked by a horse, or something like that, the larger number of our men have been at the front. Q. You mean they have all been across the channel? — A. They have all been to England, and with the exce]itions I have named they have been at the front. Q. You have been here. T think as an intcrostod listener at some of our sessions, and you know pretty well the kind of evidence that the committee is anxious to secure. We will be very glad if you will tell us now whether you think the treatment now being accorded in ^fanitoba to returned soldiers could be improved upon? — A. There is one thing about the returned soldier, you have to get in touch with him thoroughly, in order to know him and to know his wants. [Mr. A. C. H.iy.l 2S277— 54 850 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETUU^ED SOLDIERS Q. That is what we are trying to do here. — A. That is what is not done by civilian bodies. I think that if officers who have returned from this war were kept in these positions where they would come into contact with the returned soldiers, the men knowing that they were officers who had been to the front would have con- fidence in them and would freely place their needs before them, but the soldier has a strong objection to the civilian probing deeply into his affairs. Then another thing is there are too many slackers employed, and the retvirncd soldiers are not appreciated to the extent of giving them employment in connection with the variou.'^ patriotic organizations. There are several patriotic organizations in Winnipeg, and I have tried, but failed, to find the first one that has employed a returned soldier. Major Buchanan came to Winnipeg on a visit, and through Mr. Solandt asked for per- mission to address our meeting one night, for half an hour on the pension scheme. I replied to Mr. Solandt, " We would be only too pleased to have Major Buchanan address our meeting if you will tell me that I can announce or give notice to the members that you intend to employ returned soldiers." His reply was: "I am sorry, the Patriotic Fund is going to handle that." I said to him: " Tell Major Buchanan, officer and gentleman as he is, not to come to address our meeting, if he is not prepared to tell us that returned soldiers will be given the preference efn this work.'" Q. Who is Major Buchanan? — A. He is an officer, late from the 4th Battalion, 1st Canadian Contingent. He came to Winnipeg to pi-omote the Pensions Board there, and handed over the work of the Pensions Board to the Rev. Mr. Solandt and a couple of civilians and, I understand, that reverend gentleman is still handling the Patriotic Fund and also the Board. Our auditor is a chartered accountant, a man with a Distinguished Conduct Medal, he could do that work, and I could do it myself, I am an accountant, and we have several intellectual men in our association, and they have had no recognition in the way of being placed in positions which they could fill. There seems to be an awful feeling against the returned soldiers. By Mr. Bennett: Q. What you say is that while the people there are generous in giving their money they do not employ the returned soldiers in places for which they are fitted? — A. Yes. Another thing is that these organizations are run by civilians, although there are men who have been to the front who could be employed by them, whereas the secretary of our association and inyself have spent night after night, until two in the morning sometimes, trying to help the boys along. Q. You have, among your 100 members, a large number of men who are of superior education and training? — A. Yes. Q. Men who have taken professional courses in various walks of life, and who are now occupying positions in which they find no field for their activities? — A. Yes. Q. And your contention is that these men could find positions in carrying on the work in connection with the various departments, and the pensions, where they would come into contact with the returned soldiers ? — A. Yes, and in some places the returned officers were frozen out in some manner. Mr. Law : From the D.O.C. down, the medical officers, with only one or two exceptions, are men who have never been overseas and, I think, never intended to go overseas. By the Chairman : Q. Would it occur to you that as the pensions have to be paid by the tax-payers, that is by the people of Canada, that any board which should determine how much those pensions should be should be composed of representative citizens of Canada? Mr. Hay : Do we not come under that head? Are we not citizens of Canada now? [Mr. A. C. Hay.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 851 By the Chairman: Q. Undoubtedly you come under that head? — A. And if every man were doing his share in the war, we would all be returned soldiers, would we not? Q. But does that answer meet my question ? Do you think that the determination of the amount of the pensions should be entirely in the hands of the returned soldiers? — A. Certainly not, there should be eo-operation at all times. Q. I understood you in your testimony so far, you had been rather protesting against the personnel of the various organizations in the city of Winnipeg. ' Mr. Law : The Great War Veterans' Association represents over 700 men, and the membership is increasing at the rate of 40 or 50 a week, yet we have not a repre- sentative on the Hospitals Association or the Keturned Soldiers' Association, which is purely a war-relief body. We have six men on the Returned Soldiers' Association, but they are just there as dummies, and nothing else. Mr. Hay : I asked the president, if I, as President of the Great War Veterans' Association, could vote, and he said: "Certainly not." I asked him how I could get a vote, and he replied that I could do so by paying $5, which was according to their charter. Examination of Mr. Hay resumed. g. They are an incorporated body; what would happen if they transgressed their Act of incorporation? — A. My point is that money was subscribed for the returned soldiers and that at the very least we had a right to criticise and vote if we did not agree to everything that was going along. Q. So far, your evidence has consisted mainly in a protest against the personality of the other organizations that are working in Manitoba for returned soldiers? — A. Exactly so. Q. For example, you speak of Mr. Solandt, have you been acquainted at all with the work of the Patriotic Fund in Manitoba? — A. No, sir. Q. You do not know whether it has been satisfactorily performed or not i — A. Xo, sir. Q. Mr. -Solandt was connected with the Patriotic Fund for a long time ?— A. He is a minister — the Rev. Mr. Solandt. Q. I admit that might be a handicap, in the judgment of some, but is it not a fact that Mr. Solandt has in connection with the Patriotic Fund given very excellent service? — A. He succeeded Mr. C. Roland. I am not very much in sympathy with the Patriotic Fund. Q. Do you not think it has been a good thing for the help of the wives and families of the soldiers? — A. My wife and family did not take any help from the Patriotic Fund, because it savors of charity in my opinion. Q. But in the case of others who did find it necessary to take the benefit of the Patriotic Fund; don't you think it was of value to them ^ — A. I think if the Gov- ernment had handled the Patriotic Fund and made the allowances out of the patriotic moneys subscribed by the citizens it would not have savored so much of charity; but when independent people come in and tell you to sell your piano and move int-o rooms in order to get your $20, that is another matter. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. You would approve of a greater allowance being made by the country ? — A. Yes. By Mr. Boss (Middlese.r): Q. You mean that the whole country should nay that, and that it should not be done by charity? — A. Yes. fMr. A. C. Hay.] 2S277— 54i 852 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETUimED SOLDIERS By Mr. Bennett: Q. Still, you think it is a splendid tiling' to have men give voluntarily, don't you? — A. Yes. Q. And it has had an excellent effect? — A. Yes, I like to see a man giving a subscription. Q. These separation allowances would have to be made double what they were in any country in the world if it were not for what is being done by the Patriotic Fund? — A. Yes, but you understand my point is that I don't approve of it, but I think it is abused in many ways. I can see both for and against it. Q. And your personal view is against it? — A. Yes. Q. And you have carried your conviction to the extent that your wife and family have not taken advantage of it? — A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. Would you be good enough for the time being to waive your objection to officials connected with other organizations in Manitoba, and tell us from the general experience of your organization what you think can be done to imiirove the lot of returned soldiers, and what other agencies might help? Mr. Law : If I may answer that question, there was one point brought up in the evidence yesterday about doctors. Now, the men are willing to take all the ^:isks ^hat are going, but they expect that all other branches of the army are willing to do the same ; and the medical services should be of the very best. We ask the Government to get the best doctors available. The point of that is this, that doctors on Boards send men to specialists, thereby acknowledging that they are incompetent themselves to treat the case. When a report is rendered by such a specialist it is usually over-ridden by the Board, or by the Pension Board at Ottawa, who have never seen the man. Xow, the specialist says, this man is suffering from a certain thing. He takes this report to the Medical Board, say at Winnipeg ; the Board sits on it and says, " Tut, tut, nothing doing." They forward their evidence to Ottawa, and Ottawa again decides, in quite a number of cases, to lower whatever the Medical Board at Winnipeg have voted, and those at Ottawa have never seen the man. Now, if there is not some clairvoyancy or something at Ottawa I do not see how they can lower those pensions. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : ' 1 Q. Then you say it is lowered in two ways : first, by the Medical Board in Winni- peg, and then the Pension Board does not accept their finding, and it is lowered again? —A. Yes. Q. You think if a specialist is employed to investigate that man's case that his recommendation should be followed? — A. Yes. Q. Do you know cases where that thing has occurred? — A. Yes. Q. Are there many cases of that kind? — A. I might give one right here. A. C. Hay, our president, 8th Battalion, discharged medically unfit, and awarded on January 26, 1916, by an Order in Council, $132 per annum, under the old scale. The document in question said: — " I was incapacitated, to the extent of one-quarter, from earning a full livelihood." The injury was described as permanent disability by the Board. Permanent dis- ability — mark that. One year later, on January 16, 1917, he was again boarded, with the result that he was awarded a gratuity of $50, informing him that the pension was discontinued. How could permanent disability ever be applied in the first place if twelve months after he was supposed to be just temporarily disabled? Q. Whose case is that? — A. This is our own president. He is married, with three children. He cannot follow an occupation, except where he can sit. owing to having [Mr. F. W. Law.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 853 lioues ill his feet broken from being buried in the trench, and being gassed also. I lielieve he has lost 28 pounds since coming home from the front. Mr. Hay : The Order in Council speaks as to being wounded, gassed and buried. Hon. Mr. Marcil: What was your occui)ation? Mr. Hay: Accountant. Hon. Mr. Marcil: How much did you earn a year? Mr. Hay: I was only working temporarily before going to the front. Hon. Mr. Marcil: What are you getting now? Mr. Hay: I am earning the same money now. Hon. Mr. Marcil: You are getting the same as you did before you left? Mr. Hay: Yes. The Chairman : Did you get your own position back ? Mr. Hay : Yes, but I had to fight to get it. Hon. Mr. Marcil: Do you work for a private firm? Mr. Hay: Yqs. When I returned I was oifered $10 per month less than I was receiving previously and I refused to take it. I contended that as I did not get shot through the head and it was the head they wanted, that I should get the same money. My superior ofiicer made the offer to me as I say of $10 less than I had previously received and I put up an argument. I may say that my superior officer does not feel very kindly towards this war, as he comes from another country than Canada and they are not inclined to fight these people, but in any case he made me this oft'er, and I argued that as I had not been shot through the head and it was the head they required I was of the same value to them and he asked me to start in and if I made good all right, and I started in. Hon. Mr. Marcil : How as to those people in the employ of the corporation ( — A. They all got back. The Chairman : I think we had better allow these gentlemen to leave with the Committee the cases they desire investigated and we will deal with them. Mr. Law: Mr. Laidlaw, the man with the leg off, got his transportation down to Toronto two weeks ago this coming Saturday, and this man was without a leg for about 15 months. Once more his transportation was cancelled the day before he was to start, the excuse given was that there were 70 amputation cases in Toronto. If that course is to be kept up there may be 70 cases next month and 70 cases the fol- lowing month and he will still be without his leg. I say they should give him his log and let some of these later cases wait. He should not be put off any longer. It is a pity to see a man going through the snow of Winnipeg on two crutches. This man should be attended to at once. We have another case. I will read the letter from the- man himself. Hon. Mr. Marcil: Was the attention of the Department drawn to this case? Mr. Laav: There is a file about the matter which is of considerable dimensions. Hon. Mr. Marcil: Is he still in Winnipeg? Mr. Law: Tes, and he will likely be there for some time if things go on in this way. Mr. Bennett: I was endeavouring to find some individual responsible for the way this man has been treated, but I have been unable to do so. The man is back for how long do you say? Mr. Law: Fifteen months, and they started him at $1C a month. Mr. Bennett: The department arranged about the transportation and so on. Mr. Law: The man objected to being landed in Halifax with nothing in his pocket and a leg gone. [Mr. F. W. Law.] 854 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-€.E.F.—RETUT{NED SOLDIERS Hon. Mr. Eoss (Moosejaw) : There was a mistake made in that case. Mr. Law : There was a young man called Cooper in Winnipeg who got a leg made l)y the Carson Company. Hon. Mr. Marcil : Did he order it himself? Mr. Law : No, it was by the authorities. Hon. Mr. Marcil : Was that the Carson Company in Winnipeg. Mr. Law: Yes, I do not like to knock our own townspeople and tradesmen, but this leg creaks when he walks. People know he is coming. The screws fell out of the leg and it came off on the street in Winnipeg. Another time the leg came off and he was quite a distance from the house and the boy had to crawl on his hands and knees in order to get to a house to be taken home. If these are the legs they get in Win- nipeg, I think we should get them somewhere else. I think this man's case should be brought down here. Mr. Bennett : I think so. Mr. Law : The legless men seem to drop into most things. I met a young fellow on the street the other day and he said, " Mr. Law, look at this ". It was a mistake of course. He drew out a letter and the letter stated " Please find cheque for $70 and some cents." He said " Look at the cheque." It was made out to H. Barber for $9 and something. That is gross negligence. He waited three months for his cheque, and now perhaps he will have to wait another three months. Mr. Bennett : Barber was out $9 and your friend was out $70 ? Mr. Law : Yes. I would like to bring another case before the Committee. In this case the cheque was lost. The Chairman : By him ? Mr. Law: No, in the mails somewhere. I wish to state that I have just received a letter from Ottawa, in which the officials inform me that they have taken up the matter and that if we don't hear from them in two days we will write them again. Now this is over a month ago and the man is still waiting for his cheque. This is from the main office of the Patriotic Fund people in Winnipeg. Hon. Mr. Marcil : It is not from the Department in Ottawa ? Mr. Law : No. Mr. Bennett : Is that man on his permanent pension of so much a month ? Mr. Law: Yes. Mr. Bennett: Then it is perfectly obvious that the matter could be adjusted? Mr. Law : Yes. The Chairman : What would meet the case would be this : if the man at Winnipeg were permitted to make the advance himself and be recouped? Mr. Law: That comes back to the old pay system. A man comes back with one, two or three hundred dollars credit, and he cannot get any money because the matter is not put through. In three or four weeks he may get a small advance from the paymaster of the Winnipeg District. The Chairman : He takes a risk in doing that ? Mr. Law: Yes. It is the old thing. These old P.C.'s come through in far less time than they do. About the pay books, that is a real and solid complaint. I have asked many of the men, " Have you got your pay book ?" And in only one case the man did have his pay book. He said, " I think it is in my other pocket." The Chairman: These pay-books are taken from you? Mr. Law: Yes, mine was taken at Folkstone. 'Mt. Hay : Mine was taken in England, and I went up to draw some money and the man said " You are marked for Canada, you are going to be discharged. I will [Mr. F. W. Law.] I RECEPTIOX, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 855 keep your book," and I said, "Can I not get some money? I have a wife and three children." And he says, " You will get some money on the steamer. You will get two pounds." :Nrr. Eoss (Middlesex): Who took it? Mr. Hay : The Paymaster at the Canadian Camp at ShornclifTe. The Chairman: Did you get it on an L.P.C.? Mr. Hay: No, I got two pomids from the paymaster at the boat. The Chairman: Where did you get more? Mr. Hay: At Quebec. The Chairman: Where did you it? On an L.P.C? Mt. Hay : I do not "know. I had to sign my name to get it. I was pensioned and discharged. Mr. Law : There is no doubt these pay-books are the only receipt we have got, and it is a funny thing to say, but the idea occurs to me, why do they keep your pay-book if they want you to have a receipt for what you have got? The Chairman : It tends to create a suspicion in the minds of the men that they are not being treated fairly? Mr. Hay: Yes, and another matter I want to bring up that may benefit some men not yet back. These men are charged with extra clothing they have not got from the old country. I am speaking of returned soldiers. These sheets are made out in squares, serge trousers, shirts, socks and so on. You sign your name at the bottom and what is to prevent any unscrupulous man from putting in the word socks or anything else he likes? Men have found that they have been charged for things they never got. It has been filled in, and what can the men say? The document is pro- duced and their names signed to it. Then why should they keep the pay-books if there is not something w'rong about it? The Chairman : Y^our contention is that it is all jug-handled. All the documents which prove the facts are retained by the Government? Mr. Hay : Undoubtedly. When I was coming away I had a tunic and it was full of shrapnel holes and I had to get it darned. I was supposed to get a uniform. We always get the uniform, and the man said to me " Y^'ou have already got a tunic, and all you want now is a pair of trousers." I was entitled to a pair of trousers. Mj pre- vious experience was that I never got one without the other. I always got the suit. !Mr. Law : ' There is another matter regarding the delay in pension. If a pension is delayed for a certain date, say, for one, two or three months, should not this man draw full pay? The Chairman : He does now. !Mr. Bennett : He gets it straight up to the time his pension cheque comes. The Chairman : If the man is entitled to pension, his pay and allowances will continue until his first pension cheque comes. Mr. Law: I would like to ask you, sir, how long the Government proposes to allow re-attestation to continue after the war? The Chairman: I suppose you are referring to the case of a man who is dis- charged, breaks down subsequently and goes back into hospital again. I do not know that the question has been raised before. Mr. Law : The man may perhaps have a wound which may not re-oi>en until the war has been over 12 months. The Chairman : What period would you suggest during which the man may be re-attested? ^ [Mr. F. W. Law.] 856 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Mr. Law : I think it should be at least two years. The Chairmak: You think that if a man breaks down within two years of the time of his discharge he should within that time be permitted to be reattested. Mr. Law: I think so. Mr. Pardee: Is not that a little too long? Mr. Law : I do not think so. Mr. Benkett: It might not be in the case of men who had been gassed; but is not it too long in the case of men suffering from gunshot wounds? Mr. Law : A gunshot wound is a bullet wound. Mr. Bennett : Yes. But regardless of whether the wound be caused by gunshot or shrapnel. Mr. Law: Well, I have the case of a man here (referring to memoranda). He was discharged on the 27th of November and was marked for pension. (Class 3.) The man says: "I have not heard anything regarding same since. I should be glad if you would look into this matter for me and see what can be done." Mr. Hay : Iil the case of a man being wounded and wanting to save his limb ; The doctor may say to him, I think I had better take your leg off. The man may ask, Is there any possibility of saving that leg ? The doctor may say : Yes, I believe there is, but it may be slightly deformed. The man declines the operation. After he gets around on sticks, he naturally thinks the leg will come all right, will get straight in time. Later on he may have a leg with his ankle down on the ground, and he is walk- ing on the side of his foot, and he still has to have sticks because he cannot balance himself. That man may have been in a hurry to get out of the army and to get home, and he refused this operation because he knew it would lay him on his back for a long period. We have a case in Winnipeg where the man would be only too pleased now to have his foot taken off. By the Chairman: Q. How long has he been discharged? — A. I could not say, but for some time. Q. You would like that such cases should have the privilege of going back into hospital, being reattested and if necessary having their legs amputated ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you think two years would be ample time? — A. Yes. Mr. Bennett: In the case of the Canadian Northern, Grand Trunk Pacific, and Canadian Pacific Railways the law requires that such operation shall take place within the year. I think two years is a little long. Mr. Law : The doctor should certify that the trouble is due to the man's military service. Mr. Bennett: Is attributable to his service, and it does not matter whether it is one or two years. In connection with the railways it is the law that the injury must result from the accident. Examination of Mr. Laav resumed: The Chairman: Please proceed, Mr. Law. Mr. Law : I have a case here which I would like to bring to your attention. No. 71680, Pte. J. Cummings, 27th Battalion (Reads) :— " I would like you to take up my case in Toronto, in regard to insufficient pen- sion. I had a thorough examination on or about Februaiy 15, by Dr. Halpenny, and he sent me to the General Hospital to have an X-ray on my side and leg. The report from the X-ray was, the side negative but numerous pieces of shrapnel in the right leg. I have five large wounds on my side and they give me considerable trouble, the doctor said the pain was caused through the effects of a piece of shrapnel that 'had penetrated my lung, and he thought the pain would decrease materially but that it [Mr. F. W. Law.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 857 would take a long time. Also the muscle of the left forearm is gone and he did not think the arm would ever get much stronger, also part of the tissues of the right leg are torn out, and causes considerable swelling of the leg. My discharge papers from the clearing station at Quebec to Military district No. 10, gave me credit for having 30 shrapnel wounds but in all I had 42. I am in 'receipt of 8 dollars a month pension for one year from December 27, 1916, till December 31, 1917. Hoping you will look into this case for me and let me know on your return how you succeed." /)'// Mr. Boss (Middlesex): Q. What was his disability estimated at, 20 or 40 per cent? — A. I will tell you what pension he is receiving. He says : " I am in receipt of $8 a month pension." Q. That is 20 per cent Hon. Mr. Ross: For 42 wounds. Mr. Law: That is a case that should bo taken up. This man has shrapnel still in his log, and he has the munificent pension of $8 a month. Jii/ ^fr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. l^ lie a married man? — A. Yes. By tlie Chairman: Q. Has he children? — A. I do not know. Q. Because he can get $6 a month for each child if he is in the first three classes. Mr. Hay : He is not in the first three. The Chairman : Then he is under 20 per cent. Have you other cases, Mr. Law. We will have to investigate them. :^rr. Law: There is the case of a man, No. 420833, Pte. John Campbell, 43rd O.S. Battalion, transferred to 16th Battalion, discharged February 7, 1917: (Reads.) Complaint was stomach trouble consequent on gas inhalation. No pen- sion. Says often sick and weak. Frequent attacks of coughing which are very weakening accompanied with giddiness. Claims Government should give medical treatment and if necessary some support till completely recovered. Board at Folkestone gave six months. Was discharged in two months. Either some of those medical officers at Folkestone are incompetent or the officers of this other board are incompetent. By the Chairman: Q. That case you cite as a sample where you consider that the successive exami- nations for pension have differed from one another, and the English and Canadian boards have not agreed? — A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Bennett: Q. How do you know the decisions of the boards? By the Chairman: Q. Does a man always know the decision of the board? Mr. EEay : No, sir, I do not know in my o^vn case to this day. The Chairman : How are you able to allege then what the British or the Cana- dian Board decide on? ^Ir. Law : Sometimes there is a leakage. The Chairman: The man tells you himself? [Mr. F. W. Law.] 858 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIEKS Mr. Hay: The fact of having to be before a board in France — all the hospitals I was in were in France. You must go before a board, and they are very strict. I may say the Britit^li Tommy has to be all in before he gets his ticket, it is a hard job to get it. The Chairman : We are better over here ? Mr. Hay : A little, I will say that much for the Canadians. Mr. Law : They do not know what they hare got, but I am not in a position to say how they got that knowledge. Mr. Hay : You get a notice to appear before the pension board, that is how a man first gets to know that he is incapacitated to some extent, other than that it is guess work, unless you have a friend at court. If you have he will let you know something. Mr. Bennett : I should think you would always manage to have one. Mr. Hay : I genially do. Mr. Law: There is another case, Pte. G. H. Gouch, 27th Battery, 6th Brigade C.E.F. : (Eeads.) Sir: I was discharged on the third of November, 1916, but my discharge reads from the third of December, 1916. On the third of January, 1917, I received a cheque for $50 as gratuity in lieu of a pension, so on the third of_ January, 1917, I wrote to the Secretary of the Pensions Board at Ottawa asking permission to be reboarded, but I have not received an answer yet, and since my discharge I have been examined by a private doctor. Enclosed you will find his certificate of my health. During 1916 I had 13 bottles of serum injected in my arm, and when I had had about nine or ten bottles, I asked Captain Cadham when I should begin to feel the benefit of the serum, and he said he did not know, he was just experimenting on me, and it made me worse, I am sure, for 1 can hardly walk about sometimes. I have been to Captain Macdonald since my discharge (that is the medical officer at Winnipeg) and he said he did not know what was the matter with me. There is two months separation allowance for January and February, 1916, and when my wife wrote about it, they sent word that a pension had been granted from February 11, 1916, and Mr. A. Pearce, Secretary of the Manitoba Hospitals Commission has taken that matter up with them. That covers his case, as regards a gratuity; he only got a gratuity. I certainly think he is entitled to more than that. By the Chairman: Q. You think that under the regulations he is entitled ta more than that? — A. 1 think so. The doctor's certificate states the disease from which he is troubled, and this certificate is given by a man who is a specialist in that treatment who certifies as fol- lows under date of January 29, 1917 : — " Dear Sir, — In conformity with your request I have this day examined G. H. Gouch, and find that he is suffering from chronic muscular rheumatism, and a pyorrhoeal condition of the teeth. Yours respectfully, (Sgd.) FEED. J. HART." TT" "wr T. I RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 859 Then there is another certificate from a doctor in the same case, dated January 27, 1917, as follows :— G. H. Gouch, Esq., 1621 William Ave., City. Dear Sir and Bro., — After carefully considering your case I have decided that you are suffering from chronic muscular rheumatism, the focus of infection being possibly in the condition of the teeth or tonsils. I find your heart in a fairly good condition, and certainly not permanently damaged from the rheuma- tism. You are perfectly justified in seeking help from the Militia Department until such time as you are completely recovered, but I feel certain that time and proper treatment will bring about this result. Yours fraternally, (Sgd.) M. F. IRWIN, M.D." The Chairman : Is there any other question you would like to bring up ? Mr. Law : There is the question of a widow's pension, supposing she happens to remarry ( Mr. Bennett: She loses her pension. The Chairman : And gets one year's gratuity. Mr. Law : Does not that bring it to a question of barring this woman from mater- nal comforts for the remainder of her life. If this woman remarries she loses her pension, and my scheme is that in such case the money would revert to the children until these children are able to work for themselves. The CiiMRMANi; As a matter of fact the pension to the children remains in that case ? Mr. Law : Yes, but $6 a month is not sufiicient and they have been getting the Li-iient of a part of her pension. The Chairman : Your idea is that the mother's pension should go to the children? Mr. Law : Or be held in trust for them to give these children, for whom their father died, a start in life. The Chairman : As it is now, if I remember rightly, a widower's child gets a liirger pension, than is given for the child of a widow, and your idea is that if the woman remarried the children should be regarded as widower's children? Mr. Law : That is the idea. Mr. Hay : It is the children we are fighting for. Mr. Law: Put the money in trust for them and, when they are eighteen years of age, we will say, give them a start in life. Mr. ^liuDi.EBRo: Your suggestion is made on the assumption that the mother will not do as much for them after she remarries as she did before. » Mr. Law: Yes. Mr. ^fiDDLEBRO: Is that a fair assumption? Would she not be better able to care for them after she remarries? Mr. Law: There are so many different aspects that are liable to crop up in con- nection with a matter of that kind. There may be other children come into the family and it is often the case that when the younger ones come in the older ones are pushed out. There is another point I would like to bring up and that is the Federal, Pro- vincial and Municipal authorities are not doing enough for returned soldiers. In the Post Office in the city of Winnipeg, I have seen the Assistant Postmaster, and they say there : '' We must keep some experienced men on the staff, we cannot employ [Mr. P. W. Law.l 860 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-V.E.V.—RETUIiNED SOLDIERS I'eturiied soldiers to write postal orders, and so forth." Now the postmaster at Bran- don, when interviewed on the subject, said just the opposite ; he said : " Oh yes, we can employ returned soldiers and women to write postal orders, etc., it does not require much headwork to do that." Mr. MiDDLKBUo: How many returned soldiers are employed in the Winnipeg Post Office, can you tell us? Mr. Law : There are many returned soldiers employed in the post office, but they are given the dirtiest work, sorting dirty, dusty mailbags. The returned soldiers have not a friend in the assistant postmaster at Winnipeg. Then there is another matter in which the Federal, Provincial and Municipal authorities -are not doing all that they might do for the returned soldiers. You have vocational training to enable th^ returned soldier to earn his living, but what is the use of that if you do not find the positions for these men in the provincial and other Government offices after they have gone through the course. Hon. Mr. McCuRDY : You know, I suppose, that an Order in Council has been passed giving returned soldiers the preference in appointments in the public service. Mr. Law: Yes, but do the officers carry that out? If an amalgamation of the two associations in Winnipeg took place, it would be to the benefit of the returned soldiers, and we would then know what our returned boys are getting, but at the present time .we do not know what they are getting in the positions in which they are placed. Hon. Mr. McCurdy : Have you called the attention of the Postmaster General, or the heads of the other departments, to the failure of their officials to carry out the provisions of the Order in Council giving preference to the returned soldiers. Mr. Law : It is the assistant postmaster. Q. You are not asking that men employed in the service should be displaced to make room for the soldiers, but that when vacancies occur the positions should be given to them? — A. Yes, any of those civil positions in the Government, civil servants. We know that there are slackers, and slackers in abundance, in Winnipeg, Toronto, Ottawa; wherever the Civil Service is there are slackers. Q. But you admit that you cannot exercise any power of compulsion over one class of men who have a contract with the Crown which cannot be lightly broken, under the Civil Service Act; do you follow me? — A. I am not deep in that Act. I will tell you; due consideration should be shown to the man; he should be treated white. We had a man from the British Army who resided in Canada and paid his taxes here, and he was called up by the British Army, but he came back to Winnipeg and got a job in the Post Office as caretaker, but he has not got the free flat yet. Q. That is, the janitor's premises he has not yet got? — A. No. Q. Why not? — A. Well, there is another man there I suppose. Q. Is he entitled to that as of right? — A. Yes, he was engaged for that. Q. Why not complain to the Postmaster General? — A. They have done that, and to the Government too. The wnfe and family of this caretaker still reside in a suite of rooms, but they engaged another caretaker, and this man, instead of getting remu- neration in place of that suite of rooms just got the wage without the suite of rooms, and he has to live outside and pay rent and fuel and everything else. The suite of rooms would have been equal to about $30 a month at least. Hon. Mr. McCurdy: I would suggest that you bring those grievances before the head of the Department that is responsible. The policy of the Government is well known, that all the Departments shall make appointments among returned soldiers. Mr. Hay : But if we were going to take up all these grievances with the difi^erent agencies we would have to give a salary in some way. I have an occupation that makes comforts for my wife and children, but I have to give a return for that money. Mr. Law and myself have given our time and help and strength to that work up to this [Mr. A. C. Hay.] RECEPTION, rUEATMEST AXD RE-EDUCATIOX , 861 time. We cannot do that, while there are other associations paid by contribution; in fact the biggest part of the contribution in Winnipeg goes to pay the salaries of those associations. Mr. Bennett : And your suggestion is a very admirable one that there should be some central authority and some man in charge who would be able to communicate with all the departments and have it maintained without trouble to you men? ^[r. Hay : That is my point. ^Ir. Law : Just one point. We find the men of the west are very much interested in the land scheme. Unfortunately the time at our disposal before coming here was very limited, but there is a large ntimber of men in our association. When these schemes are taken up there will be 50 per cent of these men go out to the farm. There is going to be a land scheme taken up by the men of the prairie provinces, and I think if we can only have time to prepare this land scheme and send it to Ottawa or have a deputation wait on Ottawa with this land scheme it would be very beneficial. Mr. Bennett : You might prepare your report on that as soon as possible and send it to Dr. Roche, Minister of Interior. ls\x. Law : I know Saskatchewan and Alberta are deeply in favour of this land scheme, and one thing must be understood in the land scheme. The land must be close to transportation. You do not want the C. P. E. or other big land companies to have all the land near the railway and put the soldiers in the backwoods. Mr. Bennett: You know the only free land in the country is away from the rail- way. Do not misunderstand that and do not be unfair. ]\Ir. Hay : Could there not he legislation enacted to make the railways Mr. Bennett: There are between 25 and 30 million acres of land in the three jn-airie provinces within a radius of 12 or 15 miles of the railroad, but it is being held at a price of approximately $15 at an average by private owners. Apply your common sense to that and let me have your views. Mr. Hay: I thought perhaps the railways might be built through the cheaper lands. Mr. Bennett: This has been alienated from the Crown to the railways and the Hudson's Bay Company, and the problem is how to deal with it. Mr. Law : How are we going to benefit returned soldiers by giving them land which is so far from transportation? Mr. Bennett: They should not be allowed to go there. The Chairman: This Committee has a double reference. The first reference is with respect to the care and treatment of disabled men coming back from month to month, and the second reference is the larger problem of demobilization. We are only dealing with the first problem now, and if you will prepare a statement when we are dealing with the second phase of it we will come to you, or you may come to us. Mr. Bennett : The Government has that in hand and measures will be introduced yX the earliest possible moment. Mr. Hay: We had an interview with Mr. Flumerfeldt, ex-Minister of Finance in British Columbia, and he is doing that throughout the province, to ascertain the view of returned soldiers on the land scheme. ^Ir. Bennett: Mr. Flumerfeldt is a high-minded citizen. Mr. Hay: Why should he ask the president of the association how many soldiers are willing to go on the land? Mr. Bennett: Just in the public interest. Witnesses discharged. The Committee adjourned until 10 a.m. to-morrow. [Mr. F. W. Law.] MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS. City Hall, Toronto, Council Chamber, Friday, March 23, 1917. Tlie Committee met at 10.30 a.m., the Chairman, Sir Herbert Ames, presiding. Members Present: Sir Herbert Ames, Chairman; Mr. Bennett (Calgary), Mr. McCurdy, Mr. Middlebro, Hon. Mr. Murphy, Mr. Pardee, Mr. Ross (Middlesex), Mr. Sutherland, Commons Committee, and Senator Eoss, of the Senate Committee. The Chairman: I think the first matter to be taken up by the Committee this morning is a vote of thanks and an expression of appreciation for the facilities gratuitously placed at our disposal by the mayor and corporation of the city of Toronto, and all the courtesies extended to us not only by him, but by other citizens, which have made our stay here so agreeable. The secretary will be good enough to insert in our minutes a resolution to that effect. The Committee proceeded to the consideration of a letter sent to the Chairman by Colonel Marlow, M.D., A.D.M.S., District No. 2, with reference to certain state- ments made by him when under examination on Wednesday, 21st inst. During the exam- ination Colonel ]\rarlow objected to a question put to him by Mr. Bennett, which was ordered by the Chairman to be expunged from the record. Before retiring Colonel Marlow again made reference to the (juestion and entered certain protests in regard thereto. In his letter. Colonel Marlow asked that his explanations be allowed to remain in the record, notwithstanding the decision to strike out Mr. Bennett's ques- tion. The Committee decided that as the Chairman had ruled against the question referred to, and as Mr. Bennett had accepted the ruling and abandoned further examination, the subsequent statements of Col. Marlow c'~>uld not be permitted to appear. sea 1 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Mr. John McRae, called, swoni and examined. By the Chairman: Q. I understand that you are the treasurer of the Returned Soldiers' Association at Winnipeg? — A. No, sir. Q. Will you kindly correct that designation? — A. Chairman of the Relief Com- mittee. Q. Of the Returned Soldiers' Association of Winnipeg? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Is that a civic committee? — A. No. By the Chairman: Q. You might tell us the power under which that Commission was issued and its composition? — A. We received a charter from the Provincial Government on April 19, 1910. It is composed of nine directors. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Did we not have that yesterday? — A. That was the Manitoba Commission you had yesterday. By the Chairman : Q. It is composed of whom? — A. Ex-Mayor Waugh, Capt. T. H. Hooper, A. E. Ham, F. J. Baker, George J. Dodd, A. H. Smith, John McRae, J. D. Pratt and L. C. Wilson. Q. Are any of these gentlemen returned soldiers or representatives of the Returned Soldiers' Association? — A. None. Q. For what purposes was your organization incorporated and what powers have you? — A. It was organized for the purpose of looking after the returned soldier after he returned to Winnipeg, or, in other words, to take up the work where the Patriotic Fund left off. Perhaps it would be better for me to refer to the last report. Q. You might file a copy of that with us and it will bo incorporated in our report? — A. Briefly, the association was the first one of its kind organized in Canada to take care of and look after the returned soldier. Since its organization branches have been formed in nearly all the towns in the province. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. When was it organized? — K. In April, 1915. The work of this association has been commented on and complimented by the Dominion Government and also by the Military Hospitals Commission. The following will give you an idea of the work performed by this association during the past year (referring to printed docu- ment) : — Hon. ^Ir. "Mi'CrRDv : Please omit the parts which are not of importance. The Witness: Very good, sir. The association has distributed, since its organi- zation, over 130 tons of provisions, produce (including 100 cases of eggs), and so on, among the families of returned soldiers and the widows and children of those killed ^t the front. ' It has a\so distributed over 100 tons of coal. [Mr. John McRae.] 28277—55 865 866 SPECIAL ^OMMITTEE-C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. Free?— A. Yes, sir. Q. To people who did not pay for it? — A. Yes, sir. Q. As a rule? — A. Yes, sir. Also 500 cords of wood. In addition to the above, large quantities of clothing and boots and shoes, bedding, etc., have been distributed to needy cases. Q. Being the families of returned soldiers? — A. Absolutely. We do not deal with any person else. We also bought and distributed at Christmas, 1915, 7i tons of Christmas fare, such as flour, meat, poultry, fruit, and so forth. There are just a few more points I want to refer to. The Relief Committee, to attend requests for assistance meets every day at noon, and there is not the slightest delay in attending to the wants of those making application. The association has furnished to the returned soldiers at least 150 suits of clothing, 250 suits of underwear and other articles of clothing, etc. It has its own professional nurse and she has made 3,000 visits to returned soldiers and their families, and to the homes of returned soldiers and to find out their conditions and needs. I might say, Mr. Chairman,' that the Relief Committee makes use of the nurse to investigate cases we do not know of or have no information about. Q. Do you deal with single men also, or only with married men and their families? — A. Both. We have paid over $500 for drugs, medicine, etc., and with the patriotic assistance of physicians and surgeons, have been able to give medical assistance absolutely free of charge in considerably over 100 cases. At the present time (that was March 12) we have dealt with 211 widows. Since then we have dealt with 244 widows and 2T5 children. Q. You are helping them in a manner similar to that used by the Patriotic Fund when the men were at the front? — A. Yes, sir. Our fund has been raised from voluntary contributions only. It has received no grant from any council or govern- ment, with the exception of $1,000 from the Provincial Government. Our revenues are raised largely from the sale of these buttons (exhibiting button) which we sell at five dollars each, which constitutes a membership in the association, or its equivalent in cash. By Mr. Bennett: Q. What is inscribed on the button ? — A. (Reads) " Returned Soldiers' Associa- tion, Winnipeg, Active Member." And at the top here are the figures " 17 " indicat- ing the year, because we have to change the button each year. Q. By the use of the words " Returned Soldiers," the impression is left on the mind of a man who does not know anything about it that the person wearing the button is a returned soldier. That person would have about as much right to dc that as I have. — A. It only relates to assistance to the returned soldiers. Q. Yes, but the words " Returned Soldiers ^ would be interpreted by anybody as that the man who wears the button in his coat is a returned soldier, when as a matte of fact he has paid $5 and got the button without authority. — A. Of course, that mistake could very easily be made. Q. I should think it could.- — -A. But you will understand, Mr. Chairman, that w^hen this association was organized only a few men had returned, in fact I do not think the number would exceed half a dozen. By the Chairman: Q. You are organized, I suppose, primarily for the ^elief of the widows and children, and to continue carrying on the w^ork of the Patriotic Fund? — A. No, not necessarily. We saw the necessity for an organization of this kind, because the first two or three men who returned home were in a very serious condition. In fact, one man was found in a box car after he had been there for two or three days. Conse- [Mr. John McRae.] RECEPTIOX, TREATMENT AND RE EDUCATION 867 quently we deemed it necessary to establish some organization to look alter these men. Now, we have various committees, Mr. Chairman. By the Chairman: Q. I do not think you need to give the names of the members of the committees? — A. Yes, the finance committee, relief committee, auspices committee, invalids com- mittee. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. What amount of funds have you collected to date? — A. The total amount of funds collected from the 18th December, 1915, when we had a proper system of record, was $65,201.60. Q. Up to what date? — A. Up to March 12, 1917. And the total amount spent during the same period was $47,903.19. By the Chairman: Q. Have you been able to meet all demands? — A. Yes, sir. There may appear to be a discrepancy there for the simple reason that we have bought Dominion war loans to the extent of $30,000, but the difference comes in the funds that we had on hand when these records began. The institution was organized some Jime in July or August, and from then up to the 18th December, 1915, there were no proper records kept of just how the money came in. On the 18th December, I took charge of the finance committee's affairs. I am chairman of that committee also. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Did you have $10,000 or $12,000 on hand when you took charge? — A. We must have had. Q. Have you had cases of public bodies and private persons soliciting subscrip- •tions when the people thought that they were subscribing to your fund and were not? — A. We have had a few cases of people going around soliciting privately with a statement that it was in aid of the Keturned Soldiers' Association; but that did not go on very long because we advised the public through the press immediately to call us up or ask for the authority. We allow no person to solicit funds for our associa- tion without the authority of the auspices committee. By the Chairman: Q. Of what assistance are you to the returned soldier who is not in extremes financially, who is self-respecting, and who simply wants advice or assistance in get- ting matters straightened out, but does not need coal or vegetables? — A. Well, I can- not say that we are of very much assistance in that way, because there are other organizations that take that matter up, for instance, the Manitoba Commission for Employment. We turn all our cases over to them because their office is in the same building with us, and when men come in about positions we simply turn them over to the ^fanitoba Commission. Q. You are, I understand, a relief organization? — A. Pure and simple. Q. Which fakes care of the man who is down and out, or the family of the man who is down and out? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And you confine your benefactions to those connected with the great war? — A. Absolutely. Q. Have you any suggestions or recommendations to offer to this committee as to how the treatment of the returned soldier or his dependents can be improved? — A. The matters of complaint, Mr. Chairman, principally deal with, as far as we are con- cerned, where it affects us financially. The last pay certificate has been one source of great annoyance, we have heard a great deal about the L.P.C. (Last Pay Certificate). Q. That is that the loan is to be repaid? — A. Yes, anyway we call it a loan and deal with it in that way. When a soldier comes in and says he is up against it, we 28277— 55J SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS say to him: "Well what is the matter?" And the reply is "My last certificate has not come." And we immediately call up the paymaster and find out whether the statement is correct, or we send him up a form like this (producing document) which contains the man's name, rank, etc., and ask the paymaster to fill it in. The form is as follows: — Eeturned Soldiers' Association. Application for Advance. Date. Name. Number. Battalion. R.S.A. Remarks. 'States no L.P.C. Kindly verify." Paymaster Casualties Remarks. Certified :- hand." 'L.P.C. 'snot yet to (Sgd). Q. That is the way the money is advanced to the man by way of loan?-— A. Always, we make it distinctly clear to the man that we are not giving him the money, but that we are lending it to him. But there is a thing that I noticed the other day, when the Hon. Mr. McPherson was giving his evidence, he said that he got an order on the paymaster. We tried that, but the Government would not recognize that order in any way, shape or form. That was the reason Mr. McPher- son was able to make that $1,000 go so far. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Have you had any large portion of this money which you advanced by way of loan come back to your association? — A. 'No, sir. Q. Then you have lost money by that? — A. We have had returned to us since we organized, out of this $47,000 — of course you must deduct from that amount the necessary expenses incurred — we have received in returned loans, $209. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What did you say was the total amount would amount to $40,000 anyway. Q. And you got $209 back?— A of advances? — A. Probably it We got $209 back. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Did you give the men to understand, when the money was that it was a loan? — A. Absolutely. advanced to them. By Mr. Pardee : Q. When you tell us that this money was advanced in the nature of a loan, did you tell the man that whilst it was advanced by way of a loan you were not going to press to get it back? — A. Of course we are not going to press the matter. The reason that we made it clear to the man when advancing the money that it is not a gratuity is that we do not want him to think that he is getting something for nothing, because if you give the man that impression you are making a pauper out of him. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Would it not be better to let him know that it was a gratuity at once, rather than to make it by way of a loan, which it was not intended he should pay back ? — A. We give him the opportunity of paying it back. The most of these boys that come back, are not fit to assume their former occupation for one reason or another, and [Mr. John McRae.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AXD RE-EDUCATIOy 869 another strange thing about it is that there are very few of them who, when they go back to their employment receive the salary that they should in competition with the civilian. By Mr. Pardee: Q. How many returned soldiers does the total amount of $40,000 represent ? — A. It represents advances to 475 soldiers. By tlie Chairman: Q. Out of how many, all told, that liave come back? — A. There are probably about 1,000 men. By Mr. Pardee: Q. And 400 of those have got advances of approximately $100 each? — A. Yes. The Chairman : Can you tell us, Mr. Pearce, how many men have come back? Mr. Pearce : 1,304, up to February 20. Witness: That is the total number who have come back to Manitoba, but we do not deal with every man who comes back. We do not pretend to take care of those from outside our own city, although we have had to do that in some cases. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Do you give assistance to the widows or dependents ? — A. Quite frequently. Q. And are those advances made in the form of a loan? — A. No. Q. And those advances are included in the $40,000 to which vou have referred? — A. Yes. Q. Do you then wish to modify your statement with reference to the advances being made to 475 men? — A. The information that I have here is the number of cases we have assisted, whether those cases are widows or not. Q. You told us a moment ago that the $40,000 was advanced in the form of a loan ? — A. Here is a statement from January 20 to February 22, of this year, covering pra<^- tically a month, evidently brought forward from a previous statement: — " January 20, Landridge, $10." That is cash, there are small items that the widows' committee expended. By Mr. Bennett: Q. How much money have you disbursed to returned soldiers or their dependents? — A. I have stated that. Q. $40,000? — A. Approximately it would be $40,000 in round figures, because the total amount that I have here is $47,903, but we have to deduct our expenses out of that. Q. How much of that went to living men, soldiers, and how much to their families, the families and dependents of those who have come back? — A. Probably $40,000 I should say. By the Chairman: Q. Can you divide it? — A. No. Q. What proportion of your payments go to soldiers, and what proportion to widows and orphans? — A. I should say 90 per cent of it would go to soldiers and their families. Q. But the families where the man is still living — 90 per cent? — A. Yes, there are quite a number of those men that have families of from five to eight children. Q. Is there anything that is demeaning for a returned soldier to come to your association for assistance? — A. Absolutely nothing. Q. Have you anything that would offend his susceptibilities if he is a self-respect- ing man ? — A. No, I don't think it. [Mr. John McRae.] 870 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS . By Mr. Pardee: Q. Do yoM take from him a note or an I. O. U? — A. No, here is what we take from him, but it is a mere application form, and he signs a receipt for it. Printed form filed as Exhibit "2." By the Chairman: Q. Have you anything to offer us by way of suggestion for the improvement of the condition of returned soldiers? — A. There are a few cases that have become what we call chronic with us, that is, a man that comes back repeatedly. Q. What should be done with them? — A. There is just the point. We have got several cases here that are mental defectives — what we call mental defectives. They are unable to hold any position for any length of time. While they are perfectly willing to work they do not appear to be able to concentrate their mind, from shell- shock or other source, and these are the men that something must be done for. Q. What do you recommend? — A. Well, we have had this matter under discus- sion several times, and the conclusion we came to was that the very best way to deal with them is to get a tract of land convenient to a railway, or some place handy, give them an acre or half an acre, build their little cottage, and then let the balance of the land be cultivated, under proper supervision, by those men. Q. A community farm? — A. A community farm. Q. Would that be carried on by your organization, or by the Manitoba Govern- ment? — A. We would not undertake anything like that; it would have to be carried on by the Government, either Provincial or Dominion. That is outside of our juris- diction altogether. Q. Has the Manitoba Government taken up that proposition at all? — A. Not yet. I have had a conversation with the Attorney-General there, and he was going to come down, and I was going to submit to him some of these cases, but up to the present he has not come. Several of these cases had been referred to yesterday, so that it will not be necessary for me to repeat them. Q. Is there anything further you care to add? — A, The cases of amputation were referred to yesterday. I was requested to call the attention of the Committee to that matter. Here is a private letter received from a soldier in Switzerland, evidently interned. One paragraph I wish to refer to, which reads as follows: — " There is a great deal of discontent among the boys by the local author- ities insisting that our boys do certain kinds of work. The boys all think and not without some grounds either that in doing this work they are throwing some civilian out of employment which he really needs, and has always depended on. Most of the people here are dependent on the tourists for a living and since the war started they have been having a pretty rough time. One night last week some of the boys met a civey at the railway station and he was crying because he could not get work. He said that since the soldiers came they do all the work for nothing. The next morning the boys refused to do any work, the result is that 9 are to be sent to a punishment camp for the duration of the war, the remaining 28 are to do from 20 to 30 days' imprisonment in some place at a place called Interlarken. This seems prcttj' stiff considering all these men are supposed to be invalids. Another reason for their refusing was that the day was very stormy and it was snowing so heavy that the work they did had to be done over again in a few minutes. The system of discipline here is very unpopular because they punish every one for the actions of a single individual. 'No doubt a certain amount of work is good for the men but the most think its very much overdone. There are always two sides to a thing, but it is a safe thing to say that 90 per cent of the men are very much disappointed in this place." That is a matter that might be taken up. [Mr. John McRae.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION f 871 Q. We will see that it is taken up. Have you anything further? — A. I have rather a voluminous correspondence here from Mr. Ewart who has been looking after the interests of the returned men. I think in order to save time I will just file this with you. Q. Is it a series of letters? — A. Yes, and complaints. I will not take up time with it. Q. Our secretary will look through it and see if it is of value to us. Have you anything further? — A. I think that is all. By Mr. Pardee: Q. To put it in concrete form, you are a charitable institution? — A. Absolutely. Q. For returned soldiers? — A. Yes. Q. And for returned soldiers families? — A. Yes. Q. And for widows and orphans? — A. Yes. Q. And the man who comes back and is absolutely no good for anything — you also help him? — A. We do not make any distinction. If that man has been overseas, comes back and is up against it, we help him. Q. If he has not been overseas do you give him any help at all? — A. Sometimes we have to. That is a matter about which there has been a great deal of discussion. He is not actually a returned soldier. We are supposed to deal with the men who went overseas and not the camp men, and yet we have had camp cases which we had to deal with. Q. And in that way you have distributed the amount of money that you spoke of, and it practically means that any man that comes to you and signs the appplica- tion form you have shown here can get an advance of money? — A. Yes. Q. And as a matter of fact when he gets that money it is a gift? — A. Well to all intents and purposes. Q. He gives you a receipt? — A. Yes. Q. And you never expect to get that money back? — A. No. Q. So that when you tell us it is impressed on the man that it must be paid back, the man is really winking the other eye and knows he is getting something for nothing? — A. Well, he does not know. Q. You think he has not heard from the others, because that kind of news spreads quickly. All the funds you get from voluntary subscriptions? — A. Yes, and enter- tainments we put- on. We have a company of juveniles that bring us in a lot of money. Q. And these subscriptions are taken up in Winnipeg? — A. Yes. Q. Is your committee accountable to the civic body for the expenditure of money or anything of that kind? — A. No, sir. Q. To the city council? — A. No, we are responsible to no person. Q. You are a law unto yourself? — A. Yes, we have a charter and we have to obey the provisions of that charter. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Is your charter a joint stock charter or under the provisions of the Companies' Act? — A. It is under the provisions of the Benevolent Aid Act. Q. Can you file a copy of your Act of incorporation? — A. I have not it with me. Q. Will you have one sent to us? — A. Yes. Q. You can file a copy of that application for aid? — A. Yes. Q. IIow many nioinbers have you? — A. That would bo difficnlt to say. Q. I would like to know how many pay five dollars? — A. Probably during 1916 there would be somewhere from ten to twelve hundred who paid $5, but we have only started to sell our 1917 buttons very recently. Q. How many have you outstanding in 1917? — A. I could not tell you that; less than 500. Vir. John McFlae.) 872 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—liETUR'NED SOLDIERS Q. And tlicy cannot wear a 191G button after the year 191G expires, which is not the calendar year? — A. No. Q. The membership is just for one year? — A. Yes. Q. Does it not occur to you that an effort should be made to cordate the activi- ties of these societies in some way in Winnipeg? 'You have men who pay $5 a yeai wearing a button with Returned Soldiers' Association on it as compared with the Great War Veterans' Association, who have actually been overseas, and with the Provincial Aid Association created by the statutes of the province of Manitoba? — A. There is no provision of the Act, except the Manitoba Commission, Q. What is your position? — A. I am chairman of the Relief Committee. Q. What sort of organization does this institution maintain? Does it keep offices open? — A, Yes. Q. Pays rent? — A. No, we are indebted to the Manitoba Commission for rent and light. We do not pay any rent or light. Q. You just keep office room in their place? — A. Yes. Q. Do you pay your secretary? — A. Yes. Q. What do you pay him?— A. $120 a month. Q. And is he the treasurer as well? — A. No. Q. Do you pay the treasurer? — A. No. Q. He is an honorary treasurer? — A. Yes. Q. Who takes the applications? The secretary? — A. Yes. Q. So that it comes down to a purely benevolent charitable institution? — A. Yes. Q. Maintaining its funds from two sources, first the contributions of the public to the Returned Soldiers' Association — and do you not think many of them believe they are giving it to the returned soldier, when as a matter of fact they are giving it to a civilian institution? — A. I do not think so. I have never heard of any case only one, and that was not to the Returned Soldier, or the Great War Veterans, it was intended for the Army and Navy Veterans but came to us, although when the matter was brought to our attention we immediately made out a cheque and sent it to the proper quarter. Q. Do the men who get the money from your association always feel that they are under an obligation? — A. No. Q. Does not this sort of thing lend itself to an effort to exploit the soldier? — A. I do not think so. ^ Q. Is that not one of the complaints that is now being made fey the veterans in Winnipeg? — A. I do not know. Q. If you are going to give 30 or 40 thousand dollars out of charity to men with an understanding that is not an understanding that they will pay it back. Does it not simply lend itself to an effort to exploit politically and otherwise? — A. It is quite possible, yes. Q. There have been some complaints about that, have there not? — A. Only where private individuals run about soliciting in the name of the Returned Soldiers' Association. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. Do you think there should be some legislation in the direction of prohibiting or regulating the taking up of subscriptions on behalf of the returned soldiers? — A. I think there is a regulation now, sir. By the Chairman: Q. For the city of Winnipeg? — A. For the city of Winnipeg and the province. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Do you think it would be a good thing to make such a regulation applicable to the whole Dominion ? — A. I think it would be a good thing, there is not the slightest [Mr. John McRae.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 873 doubt of that, because we have returned soldiers' jitneys, returned soldiers' barber shops, and returned soldiers' all the rest of it operating at present. By Mr. Bennett: Q. The exploitation of the words "Returned Soldiers" has been very vigorou:^, and it began when your association was inaugurated. — A. I do not think you should charge us with exploiting the name of "Returned Soldier." Q. Well, is it not the fact, Mr. McRae, that large numbers of men who were eligible for military service, have paid $5 and got that button, which they are wearing to-day in their coats? — A. Would it not be better to pay $5 to aid the man who has gone overseas and done his part and returned, rather than not pay anything at air^ I would not be prepared to make that statement. Q. You are on the Relief Committee, you do not know the details of membership? -A. No, I do not. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. At any rate, you were the first organization in Canada to get together and look after the returned soldiers in the early days when there was nobody else to do it? — A. Yes, sir. I would be very glad to go out of business at any time myself if the Govern- ment of either the Province or the Dominion will take the work in hand and do what we have been doing. By Mr. Pardee: Q. You are not anxious to handle it ? — A. Not by any means. Mr. Bennett : Nobody suggested that he was. By Mr. Ross (Middle^x) : Q. There is no personal profit in it for you? — A. Absolutely none. Q. It is a sacrifice for you? — A. A pure sacrifice. I sacrificed at least 50 per cent of my time last year in connection with the work of this Association, besides jVIr. Ross (Middlesex) : Mr. Bennett says it is not a sacrifice. - By Mr. Bennett: Q. There may be a sacrifice of time on your part, but is there any doubt about the fact that rightly or wrongly the men themselves believe they are being exploited? I am putting the question to you frankly. — A. If they believe that they are incorrect so far as this Association is concerned. Mr. Bennett: I am only pointing out the fact. Mr. Pardee : For my own information I would like to know what is meant by the words " exploiting the returned soldiers." Mr. Bennett : Putting the returned soldier under a sense of obligation with respect to one particular Society, so that body might thereafter say that they have a hold upon them to do certain things politically or otherwise. Mr. MiDDLEBRo: That is an obligation the returned soldier need not put himself under unless he wishes to. Witness discharged. fMr. John McFlae.] 874 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS The Chairman: We will now hear a witness from Saskatchewan. ^fr. G. Harmon Jones, General Secretary of the Saskatchewan Returned Soldiers' Employment Commission, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman. Q. "What position do you occupy in connection with this Commission? — A. I am the General Secretary. Q. For the province? — A. For the province. Q. Was your Commission appointed by the Provincial Government? — A. Yes. Q. Are the members spread throughout the province? — A. Yes. Q. Where is your head office? — A. Eegina. Q. Who are the members of your Commission? — A. The present members are: Hon. Mr. Justice Elwood, Chairman; Dr. W. D. Cowan, mayor; Jacob W. Smith, Regina; W. W. Davidson, M.L.A., Moosejaw; R. H. Chadwick, Moosejaw; J. A. Maharg, Moosejaw; Dr. A. MacGregor Young, Saskatoon; William Knox, Prince Albert; Malcolm Henderson, North Battlefield; Levi Beck, Yorkton; W. Jones, Swift Current; Charles F. Moore, Weyburn. Q. These are all citizens of note in your community? — A. Yes. I might say, Mr. Chairman, that these gentlemen have formed the Commission up to the present time, but on March 10 a Bill was assented to incorporating the Saskatchewan Returned Soldiers' Commission, with a list of 40 or 50 men who will constitute the Commission in future. Q. That will replace the present organization? — A. Yes, they are replacing it. Q. Will you please file for record the Act incorporating the new Commission?^ A. I will do so. (Documents filed by witness.) Q. Your work, then, primarily is finding opportunities for employment through- out Saskatchewan for returned soldiers? Have you any record of the success that has attended your efforts in that respect? — A. Only in this regard, sir, that we have no unemployed in the province. Q. How many men have come back to Saskatchewan? — A. According to our last record, 698, but since coming here, perhaps, 30 more have arrived, making a total of something over 700. Q. Have you found employment for them all? — A. Yes, practically. Q. What class of employment have the men gone in for? Have you any statistics regarding those cases? — A. Not available, no. We have placed them as far as pos- sible in Federal and Provincral Government employ, where positions were available — in fact, in any position that is open. Q. That class of employment, of course, is limited? — A. Yes. Q. What steps are you taking to replace these men in civil life? What is your modus operandi? — A. I may say, in regard to the Bill which has just been assented to, the first duty named is to make a careful and comprehensive industrial and com- mercial survey of the available sources of employment for returned soldiers, in the province. That, of course, will be as stated in the Bill, a comprehensive survey. Q. Will that be done by the Provincial Government? — A. Yes. Let me say in that connection that I have had a conference with Mr. A. L. Haning, Director of National Service for the province, and we have agreed not to duplicate the work, but to work in conjunction with each other. Q. So your survey practically will correspond with the Dominion survey of the province? — A. As far as it goes industrially and commercially. Q. Your idea being to ascertain the opportunity for employment throughout the province? — A. Exactly. Q. With a view of placing returned soldiers when they come back to the centre? —A. Yes. [Mr. G. Harmon Jones.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 875 Q. Have you had any difficulty in placing them? — A. We have had lots of difficulty but none of an unsurmountable nature. Q. Will you tell us some of your difficulties and make any suggestions that may tend towards remedying them? — A. Do you mean in regard to the industrial or other features ? Q. Whatever you think will be of benefit to the committee with respect to the treatment of returned soldiers in Saskatchewan? — A. I would like to state, sir, that while our specific duty has to do with employment, we have accepted responsibility for any trouble which any man may have sent in, regarding the returned soldiers. Q. You are practically a trouble department? — A. We are, sir. W^e have advertised for troubles and we are getting them. We carry a constant ad in twenty-two of the different papers in the province drawing attention to the need of employment for returned soldiers, and closing the ad with the words, " Tell your troubles to our association." Q. Have you twenty-two branches scattered throughout the province? — A. We have over 400. Q. How many offices have you opened? — A. We have a branch office in the city cf Saskatoon and a staff, that is, of course, a branch office and assistant secretary to me, in addition to which we have some four hundred odd officially organized Returned Soldiers Welcome and Aid Leagues. Q. All voluntary? — A. Yes, when I say officially organized, I state that these were organized by officers from our central office for these specific purposes, and who call together public meetings and address them. Q. Did you build on the Patriotic Fund timber to some extent? — A. We found it advisable in some instances, but not often. In addition to these leagues, which number, I think, 415, we get into communication with the officers of all the rural municipalities, and I doubt if there is a single exception whore they have not accepted responsibility for carrying out our work as set forth in this handbook of instructions (exhibiting) which we have printed and furnished. Q. Will you send each member of the committee a copy of that handbook of instructions? — A. Yes. Q. Do you feel that you are prepared for a larger influx of men than are coming in now? — A. I think we will be prepared after this industrial survey is made. Q. That survey is keeping in view the larg;er problem of demobilized fit men after the war, — A. Well, it may be of value to us, but I doubt if, with the few facilities we have for industrial employment, it can be looked upon as any great assistance. The land is the chief factor in Saskatchewan. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Of the 700 who have returned, can you give us an idea how many have gone on to the land?-;— A. Gone on to the land? By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. ^\^lo are willing to go on to the land? — A. That changes the question entirely. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. First of all, how many have gone on to the land? — A. I have not definite figures, but possibly 5 per cent have gone back to the land, of those fit to go back. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Would that include those originally coming from the land as well? — A. Possibb' [Mr. G. Harmon Jones.] 876 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Do you think they have gone back to the land in as great a pruportion as they have enlisted?— A. Yes, I think that is a fair assumption. Q. You think they have? — A. I think so. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Do you find an inclination on the part of the returned soldier to go back to the land? — A. I find an expectation, Mr. Pardee. They expect the Government to come through with some definite policy that they can investigate and look into and then make a decision. Q. Have you laid down any policy in your own mind as to what that should be? — -A. 1 understand that an arrangement was made for an interprovincial conference on the whole land settlement question. Q. For returned soldiers? — A. Yes. In that connection 1 made a survey of all the available untenanted lands in Saskatchewan, at the same time sending out about four thousand circulars to the leading business men, farmers, and all those related agencies, asking them about eighteen or twenty questions; and the boards of trade and the labour unions and all such organizations were requested to bring them before their separate bodies and discuss this matter and send ^ us their findings. They have done that. Q. Have you any scheme in your own mind as to what should be done? — A. I have. Q. Do you want to lay it before this Committee? — A. I do not know whether I ought to do that or not. I would not suggest it in detail. Q. Have you put it in the shape of a report? — A. No. Q. Can you give it to us in brief concrete form? — A, Yes. I think that any land settlement scheme, so far as it affects soldiers, should be part of a general immi- gration or colonization scheme. Hon. Mr. Eoss: Hear, hear. The Witness: I think, as was suggested yesterday, that it should be a paternal scheme, that the attitude of the Government should be a paternal attitude extending over a considerable term of years, so that a man who is faced with the question of returning to the land wall have some sort of guarantee that he can marry, take his wife there and raise his family without being molested, and possibly for twenty-five years that will be his habitation, and that he may expect to make good or at least gain a livelihood. Q. Would you give him a title to the land? — A. No, I would not. Q. For how long? — A. Until such time as the land had paid for itself. Q. I see. He has to improve that land for the purpose of doing that? — A. He has to make good to the satisfaction of the Commission who would investigate the whole circumstances in connection with it. Q. Should that Commission be federal or provincial? — A. T think it is a federal question. The assistance of the provincial government in this connection may be invaluable. Q. It is a federal matter, you think? — A. Exactly. Q. And ought to be undertaken by the Dominion? — A. Exactly. Q. Is that as far as you have gone in your land scheme? — A. I have certain other things. I think no one land settlement scheme is sufficient, there ought to be two or three different land settlement schemes. By the Chairman: Q. To give the soldier an alternative? — A. Yes, under direction. In addition to the matter of rural settlement, that is the separate farm of 160 acres, or a definite unit, another scheme would be the community centre farm, possibly for a limited time [Mr. G. Harmon Jones.] RECEPTIOX, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 877 during which these men are undergoing an education in agriculture under super- vision. By Mr. Bennett: Q. And a special class of men as well? — A. Exactly. These would be classified, that is the reason I qualified my statement by saying, " under supervision." The third would be a scheme of practically truck farming. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Before going on with that, let us follow up the second scheme. How big would your plots be, j'our unit farm, how many acres to each man? — A. Possibly 80 acres. Q. The first scheme you say is for 160 acres? — A. Yes. I would suggest that these settlement farms be simply training stations, where a man is taught practical agriculture, and that he be given a certain amount of acreage to work out and experi- ment upon, of course, to the best advantage. Q. The second class, you say, is the community class? — A. Yes. Q. How many would you have in a community, forty or fifty? — A. That is a matter I have not carefully gone into. Q. You would not give each one in that community an 80-acre farm? — A. I say it should be provided for them for a definite term of years, possibly five years, until the man has learned the art of agriculture. Q. Would you put them on one tract of land without alloting them a unit?— A. Without giving title to the unit. This is a continual training school practically, an experimental farm. Q. Following that up, in your community farm how would you pay the men for their employment? — A. They would be on a scale of pay to be arranged by this com- mission. Q. And what they took off the land would be sold for their particular benefit to go into the community at large? — A. That would be a matter of arrangement, too. For instance, the Doukhobor colony at Veregin was established something on that line. It all goes into one common pot. Unfortunately, one man gets the large end of it there. Q. Your third scheme is what? — A. A small truck farming scheme, *hat is a piece of ground should be secured adjacent to every city of consequence, divided into five or ten acre lots, possibly less, small cottages built there, and these men definitely set down to a task, and supervision should also obtain there. They should be given the benefit of some practical instruction. Then as each man improved he begins to establish himself in a home. By the Chairman: Q. He would have the benefit of a central organization to help him with advice and with materials, and if he should fall sick there is someone else available. — A. Exactly. Q. And would he get the proceeds of the produce on the land? — A. I think so. I think in that case the title should be given him so that he b^ins at once to establish a home and to make the necessary improvements. By Mr. Bennett: Q. He never would go on another farm, that would be his permanent place of abode? — A. Exactly; that farm of course would be available for special cases. For instance, where a man could not undertake the more strenuous duties of a larger farm. By the Chairman: Q. Have you studied the statutes in the Australian Commonwealth on this sub- ject? — A. I have, but I have not the details of them in my head, although I have a general knowledge of them. [Mr. G. Harmon Jones.] 878 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. In connection with your second scheme, community farming, have you con- sidered the possibility of applying such proposals in connection with the existing Government Experimental Farms? — A. You mean the Dominion Government Experi- mental Farms? Q. Yes. — A. Yes, I think as far as possible all this work should be done under the direction of the different government departments. Q. But I mean that special feature of your suggestion. Would it be possible to work that out in connection with the Dominion Government Experimental Farms, and have you considered the question from that point of view? — A. I have considered it. Q. And having considered it, do you see any objection to it? — A. Kot the slightest. Q. Would there not be a decided advantage in having the work carried on in that way from the fact that these farms have all the necessary equipment for experi- mental and demonstration purposes? — A. Yes. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. With the exception that you could not get much more than 80 acres adjoining the Dominion Experimental Farm? — A. When I say Experimental Farm, I do not mean to carry on -work on the University scale. By Hon. Mr. Ross: Q. At these community farms you could make a man a farmer so that if he desired to do so he could take up a bigger farm later on? — A. Exactly, and not only that but a man might be a good instructor in farming who is not a university man. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Have you considered the proposal that established farmers on existing farms should be asked to take a returned soldier so that the returned soldier could learn farm work, for a year; the returned soldier would of course be asked to agree to remain there for a year. I suppose that has also been brought to your attention? — A. There is only one difficulty in connection with that, and that is that the men with whom I have discussed that question do not care to be farmed out in that way. Q. Certainly, the discussion on that proposal, as I have seen it, was that the men should go there in the first instance from their own choice, but that when they did go there they should bind themselves to remain for a year. Do you see any reasonable objection to that proposal? — A. Not if you can get them to consent to it, in the first place. But there again you have to guard against the men being '' exploited " by persons who would try to take advantage of them. By the Chairman: Q. Is the Hospitals Commission of Saskatchewan undertaking the re-education and training of the returned men on agricultural lines? — A. They are,. somewhat. By Mr. Bennett: Q. The Agricultural College of Saskatchewan, are undertaking that work, and are sending out lecturers on the University Extention plan. You have a project of that kind in course of formation, have you not? — A. I do not know whether any definite scheme has been worked out. Q. You have an Agricultural College in connection with your University? — A. Yes. Q. And it has been the policy of the Government from time to time to send out lecturers on the various branches of husbandry and a plan is under consideration ta extend that to the returned soldiers, is not that so? — A. Yes. [Mr. G. Harmon Jones.] SECEPriON, TREATMENT AXD RE-EDUCATION 879 Q. How many acres of farm laud did you find were tenantless, continp^uous to the railway? — A. I recall the statement, but these were totalled up by a clerk in the office, and I am not positive but there has been some mistake. Q. How many acres do you think there are? — A. There must be about a quarter of a million of acres. Q. Contiguous to the railway? — A. Within about ten miles of the railway. Q. Is it not more than that ?— A. The returns may not be complete, I have not gone over them myself. Q. There is a definite opinion in the East that there is a great deal of untaken Crown Land in Saskatchewan near the railway. You might state what the facts are. — A. I suppose if any man were to apply for a homestead there he would soon under- stand what the situation is. Q. Exactly. The Crown Lands near the railway are practically all taken up. — A. Yes. Q. There are some school sections, a few Hudson's Bay sections left, and some railway lands, far distant from the railways, that is the condition is it not? — A. Exactly. Q. In view of these conditions the difficulty would be to get the land for the purpose you mentioned in a central situation? — A. Why might not the school lands be taken over for that purpose? Q. Because, as you will remember, they are to be held for the common school funds of the province. The only real difficulty in carrying out your scheme is in getting suitable areas for the location of the farm? — A. Exactly. Q. That is the most vital difficulty at the present moment, is it not,' to get lands for the purpose contiguous to the railway? — A. I think it might be purchased. Q. And the purchase price of good land in Saskatchewan has gone up to $25 and $''^>0 per acre. — A. I think perhaps $22 per acre would be an average price. Q. So that if any community scheme of settlement were to be carried out to any considerable degree it would be necessary to acquire the lands by purchase, because all the lands continguous to the railway have been taken up. — A. Exactly. Q. I think that your figures of 250,000 acres are entirely erroneous? — A. I imagine they are. Q. Mr. Price made a survey as well, and his figures are very mueli larger than- that.— A. Yes. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. What is meant by the term " tenantless farm " ? — A. Those that are not in use. By Mr. Bennett: ^ Q. But the titles in those tenantless farms have passed from the Crown? — A. Yes^ some of them are held by speculators. Q. They may have been homesteadcd and on some of them improvements have been made, have they not? — A. Yes, but the homesteaders have left them and the farms have gone back to their original conditions. Might not this land be expro- priated by the Government? Q. Well, the province is the onlj^ party that could exercise that pnwor. — A. There is the difficulty in Saskatchewan the province has no land. By Hon. Mr. Ross: Q. All that land they are selling for $20 per acre would be cheaper than to expropriate these farms.^A. Mr. Chairman, I would like to set before the Com- mittee this idea, that there will be strong objection to the settlement of these men on any farms on lands remote from the railway. You must consider that these men have done their duty to the Empire already, and that they would be called upon to do a second duty, if they had to do pioneer work. [Mr. G. Harmon Jones.] 880 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. It has been sometimes said that the returned men are not so anxious to get hind upon which to live as they are to get land to sell? — A. I do not suppose that desire is more general in their connection than in ours. Q. It is not a characteristic of theirs? — A. Not a fipecial sin. By Mr Sutherland: Q. You have stated that about 5 per cent of the men who have returned have gone back to the land, and that a considerable number are living in expectation of some policy being adopted? — A. Exactly. Q. Wliat proportion of the men would go back to the land under some such system as you have described, do you suppose? — A. If the scheme were made attrac- tive I should say between 10 and 20 per cent. It would depend on the policy exactly. Q. You heard Mr. McRae's suggestion as to the mental defectiveness — that they should come under some fraternal influence such as you have suggested ; do you think that those people would naturally gravitate to a condition where they would be able to look after themselves afterwards? — A. I think the farm is the place for them. By Hon. Mr. Boss (Moosejaiv) : Q, The truck farm is the place for them? — A, Yes, I think the whole farm life, where there are few excitements, lots of sunshine and fresh air, and everything of that kind that makes it ameliorating for them. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You recently had your society incorporated? — A. Yes. Q. By statute passed at the last session? — A. Yes. Q. So that now you have a statutory existence, whereas it was a voluntary asso- ciation before? — A. Yes. Q. And as a matter of fact, all the efforts to deal with the returned soldiers in the Province of Saskatchewan are correlated under the direction of your Committee ( —A. Exactly. Q. And everything is done there with one single, simi^le organization, with such splendid results that I believe when you called them together to send a delegate down here they said they had no complaints? — A. That is quite true. I may say that when the matter was submitted to the Army and Navy Veteran^' Association, they held two executive meetings, and the deputation met in my office, and they called on me afterwards and stated that they had no particular kick coming, and I intimated to them that if there were not some sufficient reason why they should come, they ought to save the Government that expense. They delegated me to bring to your attention the points I have named, which I already had on my agenda. ^ By Mr. Pardee: Q. They are strong on the land scheme? — A. They are. I may say this is a very ■sexed question, a live question in Saskatchewan. They are studying different settle- ment schemes, and writing into the office about C.P.R. settlement plans. By Mr. Bennett: Q. And without flattering yourself, in your opinion the fact that everything has been conducted from the very inception under one control and one jurisdiction, and all funds have been correlated under one body, have brought about this result? — A. That has been our policy. Q. And to that you attribute a very considerable degree of the success, apart from the personal equation? — A. As a matter of fact, the first thing the organization is supposed to do after we have organized it [Mr. G. Harmon Jones.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 881 By the Chairman: Q. That is, one of your branches ? — A. One of our branches — is to be on the watch for returned soldiers and have them put on their committee. If a man comes back, if he has anything at all to contribute, even if it is nothing more than being a returned veteran, he is immediately asked to take a place on that committee. Q. They have representatives on your provincial executive? — A. Provision is made there to add to the number. I may say we approached several men, but on account of their official positions they turned down the proposition, perhaps five men. I was asked to name from my files the names of men that I thought would assist. I did this, and in every case they turned it down. Now, it is a matter of selection. Q. How do you propose to select your representatives that you intend to include in your i)rovincial executive? — A. We might do a little lobbying. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Of desirable men in the locality?— A. Yes. Possibly some men might be nominated from the floor whose name as a representative might not be popular in their own organization. For instance, in the city of Saskatoon there are no less than seven returned soldiers on their league committees. By Mr. Bennett: Q. That is a branch of your organization? — A. No, our office is different from that; this is what we call the local League of Eeturned Soldiers — the Welcome and Aid League. That is apart from the provincial office. We have organized every one. Q. Their efforts are corrolated with yours? — A. Yes. Q. And they give account of everything that is done? — A. Yes. Q. And you try to keep advised as to the branches, the Patriotic Fund, the Red Cross Society, and all those in the rural communities ? — A. Yes, we link up with those. Q. And in practice your central organization has become a clearing house for anything connected with the war? — A. Yes. Q. So far as funds are concerned, and employment, and so on ? — A. If a man has any difficulty whatever he may come there, and he may know that he gets satisfaction. If he does not get it he may come the next day and demand it, and so on and so on. Q. And he need not come there, because you have more than 400 branches scat- tered throughout the province? — A. Exactly. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. What was the nature of the results of the attempt to settle soldiers on the land after the South African war? — A. I am not familiar with that. Q. Only with regard to Saskatchewan? Hon. Mr. Ross (Moosejaw) : A very small proportion. The Witness: A very small proportion, and very unsatisfactory. The soldieia abominate the idea of any script issuance; and even in that circumstance I don't think there is any criterion to go by. The Government have not yet up to the present time offered any very attractive land settlement scheme, in my opinion, and the introduction of this paternalism is the solution of the whole situation. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. You have touched on a very important matter, and you seem very familiar with this land settlement for soldiers; you say that about 5 per cent of the men who have returned to your province have voluntarily gone back on the land, and with exceptionally attractive inducement, possibly 15 or 20 per cent more of them might be induced to go? — A. Yes. Q. We in this part of Canada understand that the great province of Saskatchewan offers exceptionally good inducements to any one to settle in that province, and we 28277—56 [Mr. G. Harmon Jones.] 882 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS consider that those soldiers who go back on the hnid in, that province should have some paternal care exercised over them, for a considerable number of years ? — A. Exactly. Q. Do you consider that you would get a good class, or the best class, or the average class of the soldiers to go back on the land under those conditions? — A. Exactly. Q. And you admit, as Mr. McRae from Manitoba does, that those that were not mentally up to the average should be sent on the land as a proper place for them? — A. Oh, that is a mere incident. Q. How long do you suppose the paternal care would have to be exercised over I^eople in that condition? — A. I would hope the Government would not accept that suggestion in that way, that all the men who would settle on land there would be in need of direction, being mentally deficient. The idea I had in mind was simply this: A man going on the land must have some guarantee. For instance, that if there is a succession of crop failures, or things of this character, that he can still stay there; that there is somebody at the back of it, and that it is not a case of emergency at all, but it is a definite understanding with the Dominion Government, a definite policy. If that were known, if a man knows that in case he loses his crop by hail, drought or anything at all, there is a come-back and a continuity to his life, that is the point. Q-. Would insurance against conditions of that kind be sufficient? — A. Possibly. You are perhaps aware that in connection with all the Prairie Provinces there is now passed a Rural Credits Act, and splendid advantage might be taken of this. Act in connection with returned soldiers. By the Chairman: Q. Have you not provincial hail insurance also? — A. Yes; it is rather chaotic just now. One more point, if I may be allowed — this, too, comes from the veterans. The veterans returning have difficulty; once a man has entered for a homestead and has yet a little time, possibly six months or more, to put in on duties, he has a little difficulty in getting his patent. Now, there is a very strong opinion — and I concur' in that opinion — that unless there are exceptional circumstances any man who comes back here more or less a physical wreck — a man, for instance, who has been gassed or gone through the trenches — has no right to be compelled to put on six months more labour, and his patent should come through forthwith. That would enable u.s to solve our problem. The point is this, that if this man had a patent he could immediately apply to the Government for rural grant or loan and get it, and thus one difficulty would be pushed aside. Q. You think overseas service should be accepted by the Department of the Interior as equivalent to a portion of time? — A. Sure. By Mr. Bennett: Q. What you have in mind is that when a man returns physically unfit, having put in all his time but six months, that six months should be allowed to him in the same way as you would give him a small amount of money for meritorious service? — ^A. Exactlj'. I am looking at it from the angle of my own work. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. In that way. these difficulties as they arise could be met and done with and you could close so many cases? — A. Yes. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. You would get rid of that man? — A. Yes. Q. He is able to take care of himself then? — A. Yes. [Mr. G. Harmon Jones.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 883 By Hon. 21 r. McCurdy: Q. What steps has the Saskatchewan Government taken with regard to delaying debts falling due or protecting the titles of soldiers on active service? — A. The Moratorium Act. I have not had any difficulty at all in that connection. All those difl5culties are dealt with, at once, because where a man's land is to be sold for taxes he makes report to me, and we make the wires hot and get it through. There is no case of hardship that has not been dealt with. By Mr. Bennett: Q. And you have passed an Act at the last session by which tin- taxes arc remitted entirely on a portion of his land while he is overseas? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Have you had cases where perliaps they have been sold under court proceed- ings? — A. I only recall one case, and I may say I drew that matter to the attention of Judge Elwood. who of course is competent to judge, and on hearing the whole circumstances he expressed the opinion that nothing could be done. Q. Nothing could be done? — A. Nothing could be done: it was considered that the circumstances were such that it was not a hardship. Q. Is there any provision where a case of that kind could be dealt with by the association? — A. I do not quite understand. Q. There have been cases of pressing debt and threatened loss of personal property left behind by soldiers on active service. Is there any machinery in your association which would give relief to such soldiers? — A. In what way? Giving financial relief? Q. Yes ? — A. No, we have no funds to disburse. Q. Or would you deal with the creditors? — A. Yes. that is the point. I have taken up scores of cases. Q. A number of cases have gone under your attention? — A. Yes, they have been all cleaned up by our office without reference to anything else. I have gone personally to loan companies in one or two cases and put the facts before them, and made repre- sentations that we want the thing amicably settled and if not, further proceedings will follow, which is quite sufficient generally. By the Chairman : Q. With reference to the reception and treatment of returned soldiers, what is the procedure ? — A. At present the local leagues undertake to aid, as well as welcome these men. They have instructions from our office to investigate every case, so as not to interfere with the work being done by others. Q. What provision is there for the down and out man, the one who is stranded? — A. Ordinarily he is given a little local relief. We have not anything like the problem that is met with in other provinces. Q. You have not to go into the problem that Mr. McRae describes? — A. No, and wherever these problems arise they have been met in a quiet way without publicity. Q. In a quiet way? — A. Yes, they are not heralded. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. You said you thought the returned soldier should get his patent irrespective of whether he was on the land the proper time? — A. Yes. Q. There are certain regulations as to a house of a certain size or stable? — A. There is no i)rovision as to that. Q. Oh, yes, he must have erected on his homestead certain buildings before he can get his patent. Have you suggested that that provision be abolished? — A. That is more or less a matter of fiction. The mere matter of putting 30 acres uiuier cultivation and letting them go back — that is a detriment. 28277— 56i [Mr. G. Harmon Jones.] 884 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. He cannot get his patent until these provisions are performed, and cannot get anything from the local government. In addition to eliminating the time element, do you think they should eliminate the provisions as to huilding? — A. I think the attitude of the Provincial Government is that in all cases encouragement should be given to returned soldiers to definitely settle on the land. Q. If you did that you would give the man his patent and he would not be obliged to apply for a loan and would dispose of it as he pleased. Do you think that would be safe? — A. It might be safe under the circumstances. The point is to clear the deck. The man himself, and those who have charge of his affairs get tired of repeatedly making representations to the Department of Interior and receiving nothing back but stock letters. Hon. Mr. Ross (Moosejaw) : You give a man a patent and he sells it: what harm is done? By Mr. Middlehro: Q. He must have a house and barn on the land before he gets his patent? — A. That is not a war-time measure. Q. Of the two arrangements, would you prefer that the man should get his patent without the house and barn so that he would have a chance of selling it? — A. Yes; in a great many instances these men have sacrificed everything to go to the war. Q. You would take chances on what he would do with it? — A. Yes. Witness discharged. Mr. G. H. Herbert, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman : Q I believe you are a member of the Princess Patricia's Light Infantry? — ■ A. Yes. Q. What position do you occupy with respect to the Returned Soldiers' Associa- tion? — A. I hold the position of second vice-president. Q. And you were delegated by them to come here and meet this Committee? — A. Yes. Q. Would you tell us something about the formation of that organization, what it consists of? — A. The Saskatchewan Veterans' Society is composed of veterans of the present and previous wars, and the main purpose, as far as interests this Com- mittee, is to look after and generally forward matters that are conducive to their interest. I cannot tell you anything about the funds, because there are very few funds. Q. You do not need them? — A. When we do get them we generally have plenty of places to put them where they are needed. I received a notification on Friday to come to this meeting, and I had no time to collect the evidence as I should have had. I had to leave on Monday to get down here, and arrive late, as you know. Q. If after you return you would like to submit stated cases of hardship which you want rectified, if you will send a memorandum to us we will deal with it?^— A. In addition to these? Q. Yes? — A. I will do so. I have drawn up here under the heading of sugges- tions and complaints a little memoranda and with the permission of the gentlemen present I will read it, because if you start asking me questions I might get out of my depth. This is what I know, and I want to know what I am talking about. Q. Read your statement? — A. I will do so. If any gentleman wants to ask me any question with regard to this Q. We will ask you after you get through? — A. With regard to the proposed land settlement, 50 to 60 per cent of men coming back to Saskatoon are in favour of some grant, and the chief proposition seems to be a kind of community system of about 160 acres per man if possible, but in conjunction with this, the Government grant a TMr. Georere H. Hp.rherf.l RECEPTION', TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 885 long term loan with small interest, because it is no use some of the men getting the land if they cannot comply with the provisions of the grant. A man with a grant like that would do the best he could to get the thing in working order. The next thing I would suggest is that men who are disabled and are not able to work the land the same as men who are fit, should be granted the same privilege, because they could get relatives or other people to do the work for them, and they should not be debarred from any benefit arising from this land settlement scheme. Another question that crops up in connection with these matters relates to home- steaders who are in financial difficulties owing to their having gone to this war and come back in a disabled condition owing to wounds or who are sufi'ering from illness. It is suggested that financial assistance be given, as far as possible, in the shape of a loan on easy terms. You gentlemen know the need of producing as much grain as possible to supply the wants of the people in Europe at the present time. It looks as if the people of this country were going to prove the mainstay of the people in Europe in that regard. Another question which has arisen, gentlemen, is : How would a land grant affect men already in possession of homesteads? It is suggested by our society that no distinction should be made. There is a further question with respect to men holding pre-emptions, who are unable to make payments on account of disablement or sickness resulting from their having to go to war, and leaving everything to take its own course. Some suggest that the money due be waived in lieu of the land grant, but we should like to have tliese gentlemen discuss that subject. It is a subject that will need to be discussed because there are men who otherwise will be unable to make their payments for this land, and it is not right they should lose it. Q. You are speaking of pre-emptions? — A. Yes. By Hon, Mr. Boss: Q. That question arises in certain portions of the province only? — A. Yes. There is a question coming before the Government at the present time, dealing with the shortage of labour on the land. There will be a certain percentage of men who would go on the land and work for farmers if they could get sufficient induce- ment. We suggest that men who are willing and able to work on the farm be granted a separation allowance the same as they are in the Army, because if they go into the country to work they are unable to take their wives and families with them but must leave them in the city. By the Chairman: Q. You are speaking now with respect to discharged men? — A. Yes. If the returned soldiers in the province who went to work on farms were given their military pay in addition to the pay they would earn from their farm work, it would meet with the wishes of quite a nvunber of men who would then go to work cheerfully on farms. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. What you suggest is that the returned soldier should be paid by the farmer for the work he did on the farm and that his wife should continue to draw the separa- tion allowance? — A. Yes. Q. You wovild not want a man's military pay to be continued? — A. No, sir. He would be paid by the farmer for whom he worked. Q. In addition to the wages given to him by the farmer his wife should continue to draw the Government allowance?— A. Yes. There has been a lot of money spent in getting labour from the United States, but if sufficient inducement were granted, the aid of returned soldiers could be secured. You could not expect them to leave their wives and families in the city to exist on the wages the husband might get from the farmer. [Mr. George H. Herbert] 886 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Bennett: Q. You are perfectly aware, I suppose, that there are not suiBclent returned sol- diers west of the Great Lakes to appreciably supply the demand for farm labour this year? — A. Yes, but I am dealing with the future. All these matters must be looked after with respect to the future. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. How long would you expect the separation allowance of $20 to be paid to the wife in the case you are speaking of? — A. The scheme is this: It is with a view of getting more men interested in the land scheme and getting them on to the land too. These suggestions would help the men to take up farming as a profession and also meet the present need for an increased production of grain. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. How long would you suggest the separation allowance of $20 a month should be paid? — A. It should be paid as long as the returned soldier works with the farmer. By the Chairman: Q. What does the Saskatchewan farmer now pay the man who works for him? — A. At the present time the farmers are offering about $45 a month. Q. And keej)? — A. And keep. Q. You want the returned soldier's wife provided for in the meantime? — A. Yes, provided for in the meantime. By Hon. Mr. Rossi: Q. And there is this fact also to be borne in mind, that the retv>rned soldier would be learning to farm ? — A. Yes, he would at the same time be learning t'^ farm. It gives him an inducement to take up farming which the Government is anxioUiS to see, in any event. Now, with respect to men who have been discharged from the Imperial Forces and have come to Canada, we suggest that they be afforded similar privileges as regards the land question. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. That is where they had not previously enlisted from Canada ? — A. Yes. Now we come to the matter of subordinate positions in the Civil Service and in municipalities. We suggest that such positions be given to competent men without the necessity of undergoing the Civil Service Examination. There are certain positions in the Civil Service capable of being filled by men who are not able to pass the Civil Service Examinations. Q. But men who can discharge the duties just as well as others? — A. Yes, just as well. By Hon. Mr. Ross : Q. There are certain positions which can be placed at their disposal? — A. There are lots of such positions. By the Chairman: Q. Would you leave it to the discretion of the Government to determine whether the position could be filled by a man who had not passed his Civil Service examination? — A. I do not feel altogether able to answer that question. You see, sometimes we do not get the right kind of deal. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. What do you mean by that? — A. It is very easy to make a condition that the applicant for the position should be the right kind of man. What we suggest is that [Mr. George H. Herbert.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 887 the returned soldier should be jyiven six months' trial wherever possible. If at the end of that time he proves himself capable of filling it he should be given the position permanently. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Regardless of the examination? — A. Yes, regardless of the Civil Service Examination. I am speaking now of the subordinate positions. Q. Is not that being done now in some branches of the Public Service ? — A. Take the men in Saskatchewan. They are not being given permanent positions. Q. The reason of that is because they have been temporarily appointed to take the place of men who are at the front, and have not yet returned. Is not that the real reason? — A. It is the real reason but it is not very satisfactory to the returned man. Q. Yes, but to carry out your suggestion would be pretty hard on the man who is overseas. — A. Very well, we will take up that question right now. What we say is that the attention of the Government should be drawn to apparently fit men who are still filling positions at home. By the Chairman: Q. Would you suggest that such men should be discharged to make room for returned soldiers? — A. Yes, sir, I think they have a right to be. They are holding these positions at the expense of the men who have been at the front and suffered the seven plagues of Egypt, combined. Every day they are suffering and their sufferings cannot be realized by the people at home. That is what these men have gone through and they have the right to demand these positions. Q. You are thinking of the Civil Service then from the point of view of the men who suffer rather than from the standpoint of the efficiency of the Civil Service? — A. From my experience of the returned men, after allowing a certain period for a man to get broken in, they can do the work just as efficiently. He is blessed with the same amount of intelligence as the man that is in there now. Now, I come to pensions. We suggest that pensions be equal for officers and men. By Mr. Fardee: Q. What is that? — A. We suggest that the pension scheme should be equal Q. Equalized? — A. Equalized for officers and men. By the Chairman: Q. You would cut the officers down to the men's pensions? — A. No, raise the men's pensions up, strike a medium. The reason is this: Private Tommy Atkins comes home, he is a labourer, not able to take advantage of any educational scheme because he is not capable of taking it. He has a leg or an arm off. Compare him with the man who is a lawyer, who has a profession, that man is able to carry on his bus- iness to a lot better extent than this labourer is. That man with the leg or an arm off, the labourer, is condemned to an excuse of a pension of $16 a month, and what he can make. Q. As far as the returned soldier is concerned, you are a socialist? — A. Yes, sir, I am. The question of this Pensions Board — I have to fire these bullets, and I have been instructed by the men in Saskatoon to bring them up. Q. That is what we want to get. Have you cases of hardship? — A. Yes, as far as I know, this is the evidence of the men. I will leave it to you to get the evidence from the doctors. I do not know what the report on this case is. Q. Wherever a case is specified to us, we will get the full details regarding it, and see that you get a copy of them. Please give the name of the man first in every case. —A. This is a man, No. 81098, Pte. F. O. Brault, 10th Battalion, boarded at Ottawa, October 9, 1916, discharged at Quebec, November 17, 1916, with a gratuity of $55. Now, this man, as far as I can see from his physical condition, apart from the doctor [Mr. George H. Herbert] 888 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIEKti whose report I have not got, is a physical wreck. He has two fingers of his hand taken off, and the hand is drawn in. I have a photo here, gentlemen, (producing) and I would like you to see the extent of his disability. He was discharged with a gratuity of $55. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Without any pension? — A. Yes, in full settlement of his claim. That is a case that should have some investigation. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. The photograph shows that the disability is in his right hand? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. You would like to see that case reboarded? — A. I would like to see him reboarded, and if his complaint is jufet I would like to ask the board for what reason they gave him that gratuity. The Chairman : We will have the facts regarding this case looked into. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. What was this man before he went overseas? — A. I do not know. I did not have time to get much information. I had to leave within a day after receiving notice to come here. Q. Had he other wounds besides this one? — A. No, sir, he did not, as far as I know. By the Chairman: Q. Have you any other cases? — A. I have three or four. No. 114537, Pte. E. Ball, 1st C.M.K. I met this man on the car, he is a returned soldier, he is working on the car to-day with a piece out of his skull two and a half by two inches ; he has no pro- tection. We do not think a man should be discharged from hospital in that condition; he should have some protection on his head. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Has he no silver plate? — A. No silver plate at all. By the Chairman: Q. It would seem as though that man should be recommitted to hospital and probably trepanned? — A. Yes, sir. There is also the case of Pte. Middleton, No. 81590, badly gassed, discharged October 15, 1915, at Quebec. The man was walking the streets a physical wreck, and was accosted by Dr. Munro, who was then organizing the Saskatchewan Hospital unit on April 14, 1916. He was sent into the hospital on that date, and after a while operated on for appendicitis and stomach trouble, and he does not think he had either. The Government paid the bill to September, 1916, and discharged him again. His discharge was signed by Major Andrews. The man was not fit to come out of the hospital and stayed until November 5, 1916, and came out with a bill against him of $100.50. By the Chairman: Q. He had no pay during that time? — A. No pay between that time. Q. How long was he in the hospital without pay? — A. From September, 1916, to November 5, 1916. These are the facts as given me by the man. Q. That is right, two months? — A. The man says he will never pay this himself, and we would like to see the Government take some steps to have this man's bill paid. Next we come to the case of Private Q. How much money would that man have received if he had been drawing full pay and allowances during those two months? — A. I cannot tell you that; I do not know whether he is a married man or not. The next case is No. 21552, Pte. G. Bim- son, of the 10th Battalion, discharged at Quebec, October 14, 1915. The bullet pierced this man's throat and opened the jugular vein and came out in his collar bone. He [Mr. George H. Herbert.] (RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATWN 889 certainly had a miraculous escape. The British medical journals have a photo of this man's case, and they have wondered at the man being alive to-day. He was lying eight hours, and a clot of blood formed in the hole. He was taken to England and operated on. They fixed his throat in some way. The man at present is subject to terrible fits. If he gets excited it sends a rush of blood to his head. He got a pension of $8 per month, and we think that is not just. He was under observation by Dr. Kylcs, of Saskatoon, and this doctor v.'ill give you a full report of this man's case. Q. You know that if a man is discharged and subsequently falls ill as a result of his injuries during the war, he can be re-committed to hospital, re-attested and pay and allowances will go on as they used to all the time he is in the hospital. Are there any cases you know of where that was required? — A. Yes, sir, I have. Q. It is in operation in Saskatchewan? — A. I am going to quote the next case where this was necessary but was not done, but I will not mention the man. This has only come up lately. Q. I wanted you to know that this provision has been made? — A. I am satisfied with that. But I want to do whatever I can to remedy it for men who have been paying their own expenses and who have been suffering. Q. You mean that you would like to have that provision made retroactive so that any man who incurred expense before this new legislation came in may take advantage of it? — A. Yes. Q. You think that the Government should bear the expense? — A. That is only fair. I am not going to state the name in this case, but I will just give you the facts by way of illustration of what happened. A certain private was discharged on October 7, 1915, and started work at the post office on April 4, 1010, in bad health, had to quit on May 22nd up till July 2nd. Now this man had a rash that broke out on his shoulders, just where the equipment was carried, where vermin and everything had been biting, while marching for miles and miles. This is what is known as the trench rash out there. Nothing was stated in his discharge about the trench rash, but he was discharged because his eyesight had been affected by the war. When he got back to Canada this rash broke out again, and develoi)ed into abscesses. I know for a fact that man was walking about tlie streets of Saskatoon with holes in his back one of which was large enough you could put a small apple in. But he had to continue at work because he had a wife and two children to keep so that he had to go to work again in order to keep things going. He was boarded again in October and the Government refused to put him on pay owing to a difference ot opinion between the Medical Board as to whether it was caused by service in the trenches. If we had the men who are over in the trenches here now they could prove that the man had it over there, and this man could prove that on his return to England that it broke out again whilst he was there, and it also broke out again *when he got back to Canada. He had to go to the hospital in Saskatoon, ordered there by Dr. Peterson who saw that he was unfit. All the time he was subsisting on a pension of $8 per month for probably two months in the first case, and for another month later on. By M)'. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. Was he not paid whilst he was employed in the post office? — A. He did not get paid whilst off work because he was a temporary man; if he had been a permanent man he would have got his pay for the time he was off. He was apparently well, but was badly run down. He was re-boarded by this Board at Saskatoon, and was pro- nounced fit, and the pension stopped, but at the present time the man is far from well. By the Chairman: Q. I think you should give to the Secretary of the Committee the name of that man, so that it should be investigated at Ottawa. It woidd not be necessary- to put the man's name in the minutes ? — A. I shall be very glad to do that. [Mr. George H. Herbert.] 890 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RErvny ED SOLDIERS Q. You are aware of these new regulations providing for a man being allowed to go back to the hospital after being discharged; secondly, that provision is made for re-boarding men if the pension is not properly adjusted in the first place, and, thirdly, that arrangements are now made by which the pay and allowances continue until the pension cheque is received? — A. Yes. Q. Do not these new regulations, to a considerable extent, meet the difficulties to which you have called attention? — A. It stops a lot of the difficulty. The cas'e I have jiist quoted will, I think, be met by those regulations. I would like to say that every- thing is satisfactory regarding other matters ; we are working well with the Soldiers' Aid, the Welcome League and the Hospitals Commission ; in Saskatoon every man is at work. We have seven or eight members on the committee of the Soldiers' Aid and the Welcome League, and .we are allowed to select our own men who are suitable for the work. Q. So that there is full co-operation in that province between the provincial authorities, appointed to take care of the returned soldiers, and the returned soldiers themselves? — A. Yes, we believe they are doing the best possible. The trouble has, from the beginning, been down at this end. Q. What were your principal troubles? — A. Some of these cases I have quoted to you. Q. ]\[atters of pension and matters of pay? — A. Yes. Q. And your principal complaint is of the delay at this end? — A. Yes. I want to tell you, gentlemen, that all these complaints I have brought before you are just as I got them from the men themselves, and, as far as I know, they are true. The Chairman : I am quite sure of that. Witness discharged. Mr. HoW'ARD Stutchbury^ Central Provincial Committee, Edmonton, Alberta, called, sworn and examined. ■ . By the Chairman: Q. What position do you copy? — A. Secretary of the Provincial Committee of the Hospitals Commission. Q. You are the secretary and organizer? — A. Secretary and organizer. Q. Of the Central Provincial Committee for the Province of Alberta? — A. Of the Central Provincial Committee for the Province of Alberta. Q. How is that committee appointed ?— A. By order in council. Q. Have you a copy of the order in council? — A. I am sorry, I have not. Q. Will you make a note and send a copy of it on your return? — A. I will. Q. Can you give us the names of the men who constitute the committee? — A. Yes, I can give you that now, Q. You might file it with the secretary. Are the members composing that com- mittee scattered throughout the province of Alberta? — A. Yes, the committee is com- posed of the mayors of the four cities, Mr. Wood, the president of the L^nited Farmers Association, Mr. Koss, representing labour, and the speaker of the Provincial House. Q. Have you any returned soldiers on that committee? — A. We have on our local organization. Q. But not on the central executive board? — A. No, I may say frankly that the Central Executive Board meets only occasionally, the work is left largely to the secre- tary and the local organizations. Q. How many local branches of your organization are there? — A. There are 518 branches, in all, covering 578 different points. Q. All linked up with the central organization at Edmonton?— A. All linked up with the central at Edmonton. [Mr. H. Stutchbury.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 891 Q. You might tell the committee about the work taken up by your organization. — A. Perhaps it might be well to say that of those 518 branches we maintain offices at Edmonton apart from my own head office, and in Lethbridge and Medicine Hat, and we are opening an office at Ked IJoor; those are the five cardinal points. Q. You have the province divided into five main districts, each with a central office, and all co-ordinating with Edmonton?— A. All co-ordinating with Edmonton. Q. These five offices are permanent, and always open? — A. Yes, with paid secre- taries; the central organization pays the salary of the secretary in each of the offices, the municipality caring for the accommodation and other incidental expenses. Q. Where does tbe money come from?— A. From the Provincial Government, by grant. Q. Do you do any relief work?— A. Not directly, I have a small contingent account, but that is very small. Q. Who takes care of the " down and out " ?— A. That is being done by the local organizations, in Calgary, entirely by the men themselves. We have had very close collaboration with the men we are not a part of them, you understand what I mean, but they are keeping in very close touch with us; we do not attempt to collect any money ourselves. Q. You do not make any appeal to the public?— A. Wc make no appeal to the public, but we work in co-operation, and we can go to the men's association, and I always feel that any funds that may have to be dispensed in that way would be much better dispensed by the men than by the civil organizations. Q. Any cases such as those described by Mr. McKae of Winnipeg, will be dealt with by the soldiers themselves? — A. Yes. Q. Ilow do they raise money for that purpose, from the public?— A. By concerts, socials, etc. ; Calgary raised money by collecting the waste paper, and by other methods. The Chairman of that organization, who is here, can tell you better about that. Q. Will you now describe your work ?— A. The Alberta Committee originally was formed as an employment association, that was supposed to be our original duty, but we found that in the province there were only two or three organizations, that had to do with soldiers of any kind, whether returned soldiers or not, the Department of Militia, the Red Cross, and the Patriotic Fund, and they had their own peculiar func- tion. Of necessity our duties have become more complex; we have assumed all the other troubles, not only of the man who has returned, but of the wives and families of those who are still fighting; we are a sort of clearing house. Q. Have you taken steps to let it be known by the public generally the nature of the work you are doing? — A. Yes, we have advertised in every paper in the province. Q. That any matter which troubled a returned soldier can be dealt with? — A. We don't say we will adjust them but we do the best we can. Q. You offer to do the best? — A. We offer to do the best. We trace missing men, and all that sort of thing, as far as possible. We traced 100 missing men last year. Q. How many have come back to Alberta, all told? — A. To the end of December, 1.009; that was not counting reservists, but we assume the same obligation to the reservists of any of our allies as we do to the Canadian Expeditionary Forces. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. How did you trace those missing men? — A. That is quite a long story. Q. In a general way? — A. I first wire to the Clerk of Records in Ottawa; then 1 cable to the International Red Cross in Geneva; I give them a description; we send it to the papers in the Old Country, and to the hos])itals, and we find out, perhaps, the names of some of the comrades who wore with him. We send out on an average from GO to 75 letters asking for information. Sometimes it takes a long time. I got infor- mation just as I left of a man who had disappeared nearly seven months ago. We unfortunately only got proof of his death, but even that was sufficient to clear up the estate. [Mr. H. Stutchbury.] 892 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. Speaking in another capacity for a inonieut, would you feel that there was any necessity for the Patriotic Fund to extend the time during which it should help a soldier's family? — A. Just what do you mean there? Q. At present, as you know, as soon as a man returns the Patriotic Fund gives nothing more to the family? — A. Well, now, that is not in effect in Alberta; until a man is discharged in Alberta he gets his Patriotic Fund. Q. Yes, until he was discharged; do you find that there is any need of the Patriotic Fund helping the family longer than that? — A. Oh, there may be. Q. You see, by their charter they are prohibited from helping the family after a man has been discharged; do you think there is any call in Alberta for giving them discretionary power for a month or two months more? — A. I certainly think they should have discretionary power. We have found cases of real need that should have been taken care of. Q. Where, though a man has been discharged, you have not been able to place him again? — A. Not so much in the case of the man and his family as of the dependents. Q. The dependent suffering? — A. The dependent of a missing man, perhaps, or of the killed. Q. Of those 1,009 you speak of as having returned to Alberta, how many passed through your hands? — A. All of them. Q, How many of them have you found employment for? — A. When I left there were probably not more than eight or nine, so far as I knew, out of employment. Mind you, we must say this, that men will get into temporary positions, and be out for a short time and probably come back again, and perhaps are not quite satisfied with the position they secured. In Calgary the employment is done very largely by the men themselves, through co-operation with the board of trade and other organizations. Every position is phoned to the Veterans' Club itself. Q. That is, when you find a vacant position you telephone to the Veterans' Club? — A. My secretary telephones the Veterans' Club, because the men congregate there. Q. And they determine which man is adapted for it? — A. Yes. The endeavour out there has been to put the round peg in the round hole as far as possible. The men themselves have felt their responsibility to employers as well. That is, those who had charge of employment Ijave been very, very careful to choose as far as possible men who were able to carry out the duties they were asked for. Q. Do you find that a man who is recommended for employment by the Soldiers' Association itself is more liable to hold a job than if you sent him to employment? — A. No, I would not say that. Q. Have you a great number of men who come back to you after you place them ? —A. Yes. Q. Kepeatedly? — A. Yes. It might perhaps be well to follow these. Q. We would be glad to have any statistics you have on that point? — A. What I wanted to show you specially was the way the men are reviewed as they come back. The minute a man arrives at the discharge depot we not only review him industrially, but vocationally; that is, any man who may possibly come under the scope of the Military Hospitals vocational scheme, we get all the information. We try to get first-hand touch with the man, that is, the first re-action. In fact, as far as vocational work is concerned, and the other work of my office, if we hear of a boy who has lost his leg, as we do in the list of casualties, we write to him ahead; we write to him in the hospital at London and tell him what we hope to have the opportunity of doing for him when he gets back, so as to get in touch with him at the earliest stages of the game. [Mr. H. Stutchbury.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 893 By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Before he crosses the water at all? — A. Before he leaves England. This has only been in operation three or four months. I find the men are very grateful for that. They feel that there is somebody that cares for them when they come back. By the Chairman: Q. What is being done by the Hospitals Commission in the way of educational training? — A. I can give you a report of that. Fortunately I got that before I left. We are very proud of that out there, the way the men have responded to it; it is per- fectly wonderful. We are training there in these subjects — general office work and stenographers, book-keepers, civil service — preliminary and qualifying examinations, sanitary inspectors, building inspectors and clerk of works, draughtsmen, motor mechanics, gas engineering, steam engineering, mine surveying, fire boss certificate — coal mining, electrical working, teaching, mixed farming, cattle raising, poultry rais- ing, gardening, carpentry and joinery. Q. Do you find the m^en keen to take this work? — A. Very keen. In the conval- escent homes we found last year, when we opened out our work there, that it had a wonderfully fine efi'ect on the man himself; he was better mentally and physically; be slept better and felt better, because we must remember this — that those men \vho jiave been over there, for six, twelve, or eighteen months become more or less cogs in a wheel, and we cannot expect them to come back and drop right down into the same spot that they left. They must get back to some extent their individuality and their power of concentration and that sort of thing ; they have lost that to a great extent. Q. You have then, perfect co-operation between the Hospitals Commission in their vocational training, your Soldiers' Aid, and your War Veterans Association? — A. Yes; I think the War Veterans Association are all friends of mine. Q. Can you say that those three organizations, co-operating, cover the ground? — A. I think so. Q. Is there any sort of clearing house for the three? — A. Well, no, they have each got their own peculiar functions. Q. Have you a trouble department? — A. Well, my department is really the trouble department. Q. It is really the clearing house? — A. Yes, the boys if they have any trouble in regard to their pay or anythiiig like that, come to me. I travel all the time, I sleep on the train about four nights a week; I try to visit and keep in individual touch with the men as much as possible. Q. Are you the bearer of any suggestions to this committee as to where the services for which you are responsible can be improved? — A. Yes, thero are some suggestions. As far as the land settlement schemes are conc^niccl, I .>nly desire to say one thing, if I may be permitted: before the land settlement scheme is evolved definitely there should be a conference in the west by western men and the men them- selves who will be asked to go on the land should have an opportunity of discussing it with the members of the Government or the land settlement committee. B}j Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. What do you say about the members of the Government or the Committee?? — A. Well, whatever committee will have charge of the settlement scheme. Q. That they should do what? — A. Should have a conference in western Canada. Q. With the men? — A. And with farmers. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You differentiate between the soldiers' colonization scheme and any other? — A. Well, it might be necessary, because we must look at demobilization and the general disruption which will come after the w.ir, as well as the disruption there is now. [Mr. H. Stutchbury.] 894 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.—RETUh'NED SOLDIERS Q. That is the reason I ask the question? — A. I do not think any one scheme could possibly fill all requirements. By the Chairman: i Q. Do, you feel that if an adequate scheme were proposed in Alberta that the returned men would be inclined to take advantage of it in large measure? — A. Oh, I am quite sure of it. Of course, we have not many men on the farms now. Most of the men who went from the farms have gone back to their own farms, but they da not like the idea of farming out. Q. That is working for another man? — -A. Yes; then another thing, you must consider : that a very large bulk of our men are married men, and, while farm wages are higher than they have ever been, still $40 or $50 a month will not maintain a man while his family is living in another place. Q. Do you approve of the suggestion that there should be some outside provision made for the family when a man goes and works on a farm during the season? — A. Oh, it may be necessary. Q. Would that not tend to depress the wages the farmer would pay? — A. Oh, 1 do not know. There would not be enough men involved among the returned f-oldicrs. Q. The great majority of the returned soldiers who have come back so far are not fit for the heavy work required on a farm. (No answer.) By Mr Sutherland: Q: You say most of the men who have gone on the farms have Ijeen men who' owned their own farms? — A. A great majority. Q. A small proportion of those employed as farm labourers have gone back? — A. Very, very few. The scale of wages in town is better. Q. Is that due to a higher wage being paid by manufacturers of munitions and other manufacturers ?^A. That does not affect us in the west to any great extent. By Mr. Far dee: Q. Did I understand you to say you were in favour of the land settlement scheme yourself? — A. Oh, yes, very much so, but I would not be prepared to say what that scheme would be because I am not a farmer and I think it would be a mistake for anyone but a farmer to evolve a scheme of this kind. By the Chairman: Q. All you ask is that before it is determined the western farmers have a chance to discuss it? — A. I think that would be wise, because the land that would be valuable is nearly all in the three western provinces. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. We have some lands in Ontario? — A. But your Ontario land is provincial. Q. That is the distinction you are drawing? — A. Yours would have to be a pro- vincial scheme. By the Chairman: Q: I suppose your contention would be that a land settlement scheme for Mani- toba, Saskatchewan and Alberta would have to be a Dominion scheme, applicable alone to those three provinces ? — A. I would think so. Q. In some eases the provinces are working out a land scheme? — A. Yes. Q. Do you think there should be a Dominion land scheme for those provinces where the land has not been taken over by the provinces? — A, Yes. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. You heard Mr. Jones' statement that he thought some specially attractive inc.acements would have to be offered, and if those were offered that possibly 15 or 20 per cent of the returned men would go on the land? — A. Yes. [Mr. H. Stutchbury.] RECEPTIOX, TUEATMENT AXD RE-EDUCATION 895 Q. If those special inducements were offered, would it possibly not be unfair to some of the other provinces, by taking men from those provinces and attracting them to the particular provinces where the special inducements were offered, that those other provinces would lose a great many men by this scheme? — A. That might be so. We have plenty of room. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Plow many vocational schools have you? — A. "We have the Institute of Tech- nologj', in Calgary; that is where most of our technical training is being done. Q. That is just established ?— A. Yes. Q. Is that the only place where there is vocational trainintr? — A. Oh. no, we are doing some work in Edmonton. Q. Where else? — A. Those are the only two points. Q. Is there vocational training in connection with the convalescent hospitals? — We have it in the convalescent hospital at Calgary as well as in the school. Q. How many convalescent hospitals have you now? — A. We have three hospitals. Q. Is the accommodation quite sufficient? — A. Quite sufficient. Q. And quite sufficient in the event of there being a sudden rather large influx? — A. If there were a rather large influx, Mr. Pardee, arrangements have been made for getting buildings into which we could move in five minutes. Q. Have you special isolation homes for tubercular cases? — A. Yes, we have an institution in the Crows Nest Pass at Frank. Q. How many beds have you got down there? — A. 61. Q. Is that hospital full?— A. No. We added 11 beds there on the 8th of March. By Air. Bennett: Q. And you have made arrangements for putting up huts if necessary also? — A. Yes. By Mr. Fardee: Q. You have further provision for increased accommodation if it becomes neces- sary? — A. Yes. We have also arranged with the city hospital in Calgary to admit tubercular patients. Q. How many beds have you in Alberta altogether? — A. 420. Q. With provision for an increased immediate accommodation for how many more beds in the event of an influx? — A. We could house another 400 very comfortably inside of three or four days. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You could provide accommodation up to 1,000 if you wanted to? — A. Yes, easily. We could make provision for that number in three or four days. We can cover any eventuality. By Mr. Fardee: Q. Have you adopted the system of leasing hotel properties in order to provide hospital accommodation ? — A. Not yet. Q. Do you contemplate doing so? — A. It may be necessary. Of course that is a matter that is entirely out of my province, Mr. Pardee. Q. Oh, is it? — A. That would be a matter for the ^lilitary Hospitals Commission, but we work in close co-operation with them. Q. Then, speaking as a resident of Alberta, do you think the province has suffi- cient accommodation for returned men? — A. Oh, quite. By the Chairman: Q. Is there anything further you would like to bring to the attention of the com- mittee? — A. There are one or two things I would like to mention, which are causing [Mr. H. Stutchbury.] 896 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS some annoyance. Keally, I should not say annoyance, because the annoyances have been largely cleared up by the passage of the two orders in council relating to pay. What I have in mind are pay troubles, but I am going to Ottawa and hope to have those satisfactorily dealt with there. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What are these troubles? — A. Those are pay troubles (pointing to file). By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Have the soldiers who have returned to your province had any difficulty in getting their pay? — A. There has been delay in the past, but it is disappearing very materially now. The difficulty, I think, is more largely with the overseas paymaster than with the headquarters paymaster on this side. It is there, apparently, that most of the difficulties arise. There are, however, some changes in connection with the separa- tion allowance which I would like to bring before the committee if I may. Under the separation allowance regulations these are the dependents: Married men, widowers with children dependent on them, and single men who are the soIt support of a widowed mother. Now, there are others equally dependent whose troubles I have taken up, and in some cases I have managed to get a ruling, but they are always special case rulings. Q. The Patriotic Fund is not quite so limited as the Government is in that respect. Sometimes they assume the whole cost of maintaining the family where they can get no Government aid? — A. If it were not for the Patriotic Fund, I do not know what we would have done. I have a case of a dependent sister, entirely crippled with rheumatism. She is a charge on the public, other than the $20 allowed her by her brother who is overseas. Practically, the boy should not have gone because his obligation to his sister was as great as his obligation to the country. By Mr. Bennett: ,Q. If you make the sister a dependent for separation allowance you raise thou- sands of cases? — A. I know you do, Mr. Bennett, but I was going to put it this way, where satisfactory proof of dependency can be secured; it would depend entirely on the proof of dependency. By the Chairman: Q. Would it not be better, where you have an aggravated case like that, to have it treated as a special order in council case? — A. That takes a long time. Q. You are going to Ottawa and can take it vp there? — A. These are all cases of that kind. Mr. Ross (Middlesex) ; I know a more deserving case than that, a widow on a farm whose only boy has gone to the war. They refused to give her separation allow- ance although she has had to hire men to do the work of the farm. By the Chairman: Q. Is there anything further, Mr. Stutchbury? — A. Yes, there is the question of pensions. Mr. Guilfoyle is also going to speak on that subject. But I do think, and it is very largely the feeling of the men, that the widow's pension should not be 80 per cent, but 100 per cent, that the loss of the husband is quite as much as the loss of two legs or two eyes. That should be a total disability no matter what the pension may be. it should be total for a widow ; and it should also be for the widowed mother. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. She only receives 60 per cent? — A. Where total dependency is proven there should be no diiference in the pension. There are cases of really extreme hardship. T have a case now of a mother who is very sick. The poor old grandmother is taking care of the children. They have $44 per month to educate and maintain those two children, the grandmother and the sick mother. [Mr. H. stutchbury.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATTON 897 Q. Do you think in case the Government does not raise that pension that the same end could be obtained by the continuation of an organization like the Patriotic Fund to supplement special cases of hardship in the case of widows? — A, I do not think so; I do not think that would be fair. By Hon. Mr. Ross: Q. It would in that case have to be a permanent Committee? — A. That is only one side of it. These women are not receiving charity. Why should my wife, if I am killed have to go to the Patriotic Fund to have her pension supplemented? Particularly in the West men have given up good positions to go, they have forgotten their future and in many cases have forgotten their obligation to their families. I know of several cases there where men were earning $200 or $300 a month, but have their real estate obligations as everybody has in the West, and their dependents are living on a pension of from $3'2 to $50 per month. Q. I understood you to say that the pension of a wife and of a widowed mother should both be 100 per cent disability? — A. And that there should be an upward tendency in the matter of pensions. There is another thing, if I might say it right here, I think it would be infinitely better if the pensions were graded on a 10 per cent basis instead of as at present with a spread from 20, 40, 60, 80 and 100. It should be from 10 to 20 and from 20 to 30 per cent disability and so on. Q. There is, you think, too wide a spread? — A. Too wide a spread. Another featiire of the present scale is that a medical board may say that the disability should be 30 per cent, the Pensions Board at Ottawa cuts down that disability to the next grade and the man is only given a 20 per cent pension. In other words the revision instead of beginning downwards should be upwards. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You say there are many cases where a man's disability comes just under the maximum percentage of that grade, and he only gets the same pension as a man who is just above the minimum, for instance with a 30 per cent disability will receive the same pension as a man with a 31 per cent? — A. Practically. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Under the Ontario Workman's Compensation Act, a man who received an injury while in his employment is given compensation, according to the extent by which his earning capacity is reduced owing to that injury, during the balance of his life. You think there is no reason why the same principle should not apply in the determination of the amount of the pension? — A. There is no reason whatever. I would be rather interested, myself, in the utilization of municipal waste. I have discussed the matter with a chemist out there who has been working on photogi-aphic waste and it has been discovered that 95 per cent of that waste can be rendered profitable. I was going to suggest to this Committee that the Federal Government put in its Department of Trade and Commerce, an Industrial Research Department. Q. There is one there now. — A. There is one there? I want to see it when I go down. You take the straw, and all that kind of thing that we have in our Western Prairies, there htis been a waste of an enormous amount, that ought to be of value and the manufacture of which would give employment. By Mr. Bennett: Q. I saw the whole details of the matter of gathering up all the waste products in the Western provinces and utilizing them again which has been under discussion. I think we might save many things that are now wasted and which in the aggregate represents an enormous sum of money. — A. In Alberta we have now an industrial survey being made by the Department of Education of the Provincial Government, we are working in harmony with the National Service Commission. 28277—57 [Mr. H. Stutchbury.] 898 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. The survey was commenced last September? — A. Yes, but we work together not only with regard to demobilization, but the greater expansion of industrial train- ing, and it seems to me that with vocational training and technical training not only of soldiers, but of immigrants generally who are coming in; men should not be allowed to go haphazard into the work, but every opportunity should be given them. Take particularly the returned soldier. I think every man, whether his disability brings him under the scope of the educational plan of the Military Hospitals Commission, every man who has ambition enough to want to better himself and to get a look ahead should get the opportunity. Q. You heard what Mr. Jones said as to the difficulty of telling men to do what they don't want to do? — A. We have not had that difficulty up there. By the Chairman: Q. Your idea is that not only the unfit men who fall below the percentage of full efficiency should be getting the opportunity of re-education, but also the fit men? — A. Yes; we found men come back here who were common labourers before they went over, but they got very, very^ close to the heart of things, and they have realized their obligation as citizens more than they ever realized it before, and are very keen, most oi them very, very keen, to say, " Well now, how can I make myself a little better than 1 was before?" We want to give them that opportunity. We are doing it wherever it is possible; but I think as it is a national question, it is worth consideration. Q. Do you think that the work of technical re-education is a Provincial question or a national question? — A. Not altogether; I think it is a joint question. Q. You have technical institutions under the Provincial Government? — A. Oh, yes. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You have seen the report of the Technical Education Commission? — A. Yes, but I really think it is a joint question. I suppose there are some legal difficulties, and that sort of thing. By the Chairman: Q. Has the province of Alberta the facilities for giving technical education to a large number of men at present? — A. No. By Mr. Bennett: Q. They have spent for technical education about $100,000?— A. That is the provincial expenditure, about $100,000. Q. This special effort was only made since this time last year? — A. Yes. Witness discharged. Committee adjourned. The Committee resumed at 2.30 p.m. Sergt-Major J. A. Guilfoyle, representing the European War Veterans' Asso- ciation, Calgary, Mr. G. Wells and Mr. Harold Hodgson appeared before the Com- mittee. Sergt.-Major Guilfoyle examined: By the Chairman: Q. I understand Sergt-Major Guilfoyle that you are appearing before us, with Private Harold Hodgson and Private G. Wells, representing the Calgary European War Veterans' Association? — A. Yes. [Sergt.-Major Guilfoyle.] RECEPTION, TREATMEIfT AND RE-EDVCATION 899 Q. You are the president of it? — A. Yes. Q. Would you give us a description as to how your organization or your incorpora- tion took place, and the membership and objects of the association? — A. The objects of the association are to promote the welfare of persons who have served in the naval and military forces of His Majesty or the Allies in the Ii^uropean war, and have returned to Canada from Europe. We have not a charter at present. Q. Are you applying for one? — A. Yes. Q. You only include in your membership men who crossed the ocean? — A, Over- seas members. Q. Not men who have only been in camp in Canada? — A. No, sir, Q. How large a membership have you? — A. We have about 300 members on oui books who have paid their fees. Q. Do you speak for southern Alberta, or for Calgary? — A. I speak for Calgary. Q. Were there similar organizations at Lethbridge and McLeod? — A. They are organizing. Q. Do you intend to endeavour to form a provincial organization eventually? — A. Yes, in the near future. Q. What do you do for returned men? — A. We look after their welfare in every way that is possible for us as European war veterans to do, in obtaining employment for the men, if necessary to give them temporary assistance on loan, which we have done to the extent of some $1,500 or $1,800. Q. You work in harmony and i^i connection with the other agencies in Calgary? — A. They are harmonious, sir. Q. You are fully acquainted with the work of the Hospitals Commission? — A. Yes, I am. Q. Is that satisfactory from a soldier's point of view? — A. They are doing very good work, sir. Q. How about the Soldiers' Aid Commission of the 'Provincial Government ?- - A. We have none that I am aware of in the province. Q. Iveferring to th;3 Central Provincial Committee of Alberta, represented by Mr. Stutehbury, do you work with them? — A. We are a distinct and separate organi- zation, but the spirit of harmony exists between us. They co-operate with us and we co-operate with them. Q. As far as you are concerned, do you find the existing agencies in Alberta are sufficient to deal with the returned soldiers? — A. In my opinion, yes, sir. Q. Do you think they would be sufficient after demobilization if large numbers came back? — A. That is a question I am not in a position to answer, because I doubt if their resources are sufficient to handle the large numbers of men who will come back after demobilization. Q. Hitherto you have had plenty of hospital space? — A. Yes. Q. And no returned soldiers have been neglected from lack of hospital care or space? — A. None that I am aware of. Q. And your employment agencies are working satisfactorily? — A. Yes. Q. Any considerable number of your returned soldiers out of employment? — A. No, sir. I may mention as a matter of illustration that we handle practically all the employment for returned soldiers in Calgary. Q. When you say you handle it? Do you mean you find jobs for the soldiers or soldiers for the jobs? — A. The^ secretary of our association is informed when a vacancy occurs, and we pick out the most suitable man we have on our list for the position. I may also add in connection with this movement that I am an honorary member of the Board of Trade through the position which I hold as President of the European War Veterans' Association, and in that board there is a committee which deals with returned soldiers, and we meet weekly for the purpose of discussing any subjects which we can further to benefit the returned men, such as employment. At 28277— 57J [Sergt. -Major Guilfoyle.] 900 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETUnXED SOLDIERS the present moment we have a scheme by which Mr. P. Burns, who is a member of the board, is giving to returned men 100 acres of land within the city limits for the purpose of raising truck garden stuff. Q. Giving them the use of that piece of land? — A. Yes, and we propose as an association to take up about 20 acres of that ourselves, so as to be able to produce a revenue for our association. The remainder will be divided amongst individual men who are discharged from convalescent camps, and are practically back again into full privileges of civil life. They will take up some little tracts of that and cultivate it for garden plots, and I find the returned men are very keen on such schemes as that. It was not very long after we put the scheme before the members that we had a list of names of men requiring from 2 acres down to a quarter of an acre for the purpose of cultivating. Q. Now you have come in contact of course a good deal with returned soldiers as they have come back. What has been done that, in your judgment, might be better done? What complaints have the men to make of the services that are being per- formed for them? — A. There have been many complaints in reference to pay and pensions that are now being adjusted. No doubt previous to January of the present year the Pensions Staff was either inadequate or incompetent, but since the Govern- ment has organized local pension offices, with power to take action, and the different amendments to the Pension Act since January, 1917, the complaints have been less. Q. How many pension offices are there? — A. One only in Calgary. Q. Is that kept open all the time? — A. That is open during office hours for any complaints from any soldier in reference to his pension. Q. He can go individually and talk the matter over? — -A. Yes. Q. What have you in Alberta that may be termed the trouble department for the returned soldier? — A. Well, sir, up to the present, Mr. Stutchbury, the Secretary of the Hospitals Commission had a lot of that trouble work, and I am not aware of any other source through which the men voice their troubles, with the exception of Major Daniels, who is the representative of the Dominion Hospitals Commission in Calgary. Q. Do you think that there is adequate provision at present in Alberta for an immediate airing of the grievance of the soldier and for securing prompt redress? — A. We believe that the local centralized pension office has removed 90 per cent of the difficulties which existed previous to the organization of this body. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Who is in charge of it? — A. Private Alsdorf, a returned soldier. By the Chairman: Q. Is there a similar office in Edmonton? — A. A similar 'office in Edmonton. Q. You have two offices then in Alberta ? — A. Yes, two in Alberta. Q. Have you any further suggestions to make by which we could improve the lot of the returned soldier or his dependents? — A. I have, sir. Q. We would be glad to hear them. — A. As regards asylums for the insane soldiers, there should be an asylum for the care of demented soldiers as it is not desirable to place a man in provincial institutions where, in many cases, they have to mix with criminal lunatics and born alien enemies. Also a state asylum would be in a better position, medically and otherwise, to care for them and make their surroundings more comfortable, which would be self-supporting, as the pensions to the men which are now given to the provincial institutions would revert to Govern- ment institutions. Q. You think then that the care of the hopelessly insane should still be main- tained in the hands of the Dominion Government? — A. Yes, sir, as I believe the men would receive better care and the Government would be in a better position to [Sergt. -Major Guilfoyle.] 1 RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 901 provide the most up-to-date treatment for men who are mentally defective. Also it is not desirable that men who have become demented, through injuries or otherwise in this great wair, should be housed with and receive the same treatment as a lunatic or a born alien enemy. Q. You have in Alberta a Provincial Insane Asylum? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Is it a satisfactory institution? — A. I cannot give you any information relative to it, but it is the wish of a great many soldiers that the demented soldiers should be cared for by the state in a separate and distinct institution. By Mr. fardee: Q. How many returned insane soldiers are there in Alberta? — A. That I cannot tell you. Q. Have you any idea at all? — A. Quite a percentage of men are coming back at the present time who are more or less insane. By the Chairman: Q. Would you make any distinction between the insane man who has served over- seas and the man who had been found to be insane on this side of the water? — A. A man who, in- the opinion of the Medical Board, became insane through active service in this war should receive a distinct and separate treatment from a man who goes insane through his own personal neglect or abuse on this feide. By Mr. Fardee: Q. Do you know of any returned soldiers who are now in asylums in Alberta ? — A. I do not. Q. You do not know of any? — A. No, sir. Q. Do you know whether any of them have been found there or not? — A. That I cannot tell you, sir. Q. Then you are making the suggestion merely as a preventive measure before anything is done at all? — A. Yes,- sir. Q. It is not by reason of any complaints of the treatment of returned soldiers in the Provincial Asylum ? — A. No, sir. It is a suggestion for the future. Q. This suggestion is not founded on any concrete instance of any mal-treat- inent of any returned soldier? — A. No, sir. Q. And you do not know the number at all, nor can you give it to us approxi- mately, of the returned insane soldiers? — A. I cannot, sir. Q. How many soldiers have returned, altogether, to Alberta? — A. The Hospitals Commission is in a position to give that information. I believe somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1,100. Q. And of that 1,100 do you know where each one is located at the present time? — A. We have the addresses of the men who joined our club. Q. And there are how many of them? — A. We have over 300 in Calgary district alone. Q. That is all that you can speak of? — A. All that I can speak of personally. Q. Among that 300 there are no insane? — A. No, sir. Q. Do you know of any insane cases in Alberta at all? — A. There are some in tlie Provincial Asylum, but I am not aware of the facts concerning the individual cases. Now I wish to bring up another matter. By the Chairman : Q. You do not mind our interrupting you? — A. Not in the least. There should be a soldiers' childrens' orphanage established, where children can be cared for, educated and trained. This orphanage could be used where the guardian [Sergt.-Major Guilfoyle.] 902 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS was not a desirable person to take charge of the children. Such institutions exist in Great Britain and Ireland, and to them are sent children who are taken from, in some cases, undesirable surroundings and environments. Take a case where the widow dies. The oldest children are entitled to a pension until they arrive at a certain age. The guardian who will take charge of those children may do it out of sympathy or with the object of getting that pension, and the education and training those children will get will not be conducive to their welfare in future life. By the Chairman: Q. Who would you think should determine whether those orphan children should be kept with the guardian or should go to the institution? — A. Where it was proved that the guardian was not a desirable person the children should be taken charge of and put into such an institution. Q. Through legal process? — A. Through legal process. Of course, the majority of cases of that sort would arise out of police court proceedings through neglect. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Are there any children in that position now in Calgary ? — A. There are the two children of a man who recently was killed who are being taken charge of by the grand- mother. I am not in a position to state whether the grandparents are prepared to keep those two children, who are infants, practically speaking. The grandparents are getting very old, and I am not prepared to say \^ether they are in a position to keep those children for a period of 15 years and give them the training they should get, and which they could get in an institution controlled by the Dominion authorities. Q. You would not make it at all compulsory that those orphan children should go to that institution? — A. I would, if they had no guardian, or if the guardian was not a desirable person. Q. Quite so, but in the first instance? — A. As long as the guardian is a respectable person doing the best he could for the children, I should undoubtedly leave them in his charge. By the Chairman: Q. Now, give us your next suggestion. — A. In the case, sir, of a man dying from causes due directly to service, after discharge, his dependents should receive a pension similar to that of a man killed on active service, as it will be seen that the cause of death was due to injuries received while fighting for his country. For instance,, a man may come back and be discharged from the army, receiving, we will say, a total disability allowance. He re-enters civilian life with his total disability allowance, and six months afterwards he dies. He leaves a widow and children, but I am not aware that any provision is made in the present Pensions Act for such a case. By Mr. Bennett: Q. How long a time should such a provision be effective? One witness yesterday said he thought provision should be made for two years. — A. In the case of total disability? Q. Yes. Directly attributable to the man's war service. — A. I do not think it is possible to define a special term in that case. By Mr. Fardee: Q. In the case of total disability you would make it an unlimited period? — A. I would make it unlimited because the man's death was directly due to the injuries he received on active service. By the Chairman: Q. That is if the man has total disability and dies you think that his wife and family should be just as well off as if he ? — A. As if he had died on the field. That man has prolonged his agony by living, as will occur in many cases. [Serst. -Major Guilfoyle.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 903 Q. And he has been of no value to his family in that condition? — A. No value to them. The widow's position should be exactly the same as if he had died on the field of battle. By Mr. Pardee: Q, You would put it more broadly than that? You would include the man's disability, no matter from what cause he had died? — A. I would, because the man's life has been shortened through injuries received on active service. I would, undoubt- edly, sir. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Supposing he died of old age? — A. He would not die of old age, because the injuries he has received would undoubtedly shorten his life. The Chairman: That is a good suggestion, we will have that looked into. Mr. GuiLFOYLE : The gratuity system is the next point I wish to take up. A man should receive a pension for injuries received under 20 per cent, not a gratuity. Take, for instance, total deafness in one ear, the present Act oidy provides a gratuity although that man has a disability that will hamper him always, and is deprived of a great many of the joys of life on account of his ear being impaired. It also places him in jeopardy at times and. would deprive him from following many occupations where keenness of hearing is absolutely necessary. The American pension scale pro- vides $10 a month for total deafness in one ear up to $25 a month for total deafness in one ear and partial in the other. Deafness is an injury that will form quite a large percentage of the casualties in this war, and those classified under 20 per cent should equally receive pensions and consideration. Take the case where a man receives an injury to his ear which causes total deafness, that man has a disability which places him at various times ill very awkward positions, he jeopardizes his life on many occa- sions, and the doctors will tell you that it is hard for him to locate the direction from which noises are coming. Take, for instance, a man having important legal proceed- ings, that man may miss a point, he cannot grasp it, and may lose his case through it. Take the man attending church, he cannot hear the sermon; going to the theatre, he cannot enjoy the play. These are instances where deafness is certainly a severe dis- ability to a man. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Crossing the streets, he might not be able to avoid an accident? — A. No. By Mr. Middlehro: I Q. Under the present Pension Act, he has to be deaf in both ears before he is entitled to 40 per cent disability. He may be nine-tenths deaf in both ears under the present regulations and in that case would get only a gratuity? — A. Yes, that is a man deaf in one ear. Q. He may be uine-tentlis deaf in both ears and yet only get a gratuity, and no pension? — A. In Class 4, Disability, 40 per cent and less than 60 per cent — pension I 40 per cent of Class 1, the following examples are given : Loss of one eye, loss of one foot, total deafness, loss of two thumbs. Q. Look at the next class ? — A. (Reads) : " Disability, 20 per cent and less than 40 per cent — pension, 20 per cent of Class 1. For example: Loss of one thumb, anchylosis of elbow, knee, shoulder, wrist or ankle. Class 6, disability under 20 per cent, a gratuity not exceeding $100. For example: Total deafness in one ear, partial deafness in both, loss of index or other finger." ' Q. That is what I say, for partial deafness in both ears all he gets is a miserable gratuity? — A. Yes. Q. That is what I mean. Take another case: We had this morning a case where I a man lost two fingers of! his right hand, and he is only entitled under these rules i you are reading A. To a gratuity. [Sergt.-Major Guilfoyle.i 904 SPECIAL COAIMITTEE-C.E.F.—llETURNED SOLDIERS Q. And in the case specified he got $55 of a gratuity. I took the trouble to tele- phone to the Workmen's Compensation Board in the city, and they told me that, imder the Workmen's Compensation Act of Ontario, if the man were injured to the extent of more than 10 per cent of his earning power he would be put on a permanent pension and not given a gratuity. You claim that the soldier should be entitled to the same consideration as that? — A. I claim, sir, that my disability, or a man's disability with the loss of hearing, is at least 20 per cent Q. Of his earning power? — A. Yes, because you are deprived of many occupa- tions you might like to take up; for instance, telegraphy or anything in connection with railroad work. May I follow up now with regard to artificial limbs, sir. It is an injustice to the western men to have to come to Toronto for artificial limbs. Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : That is right. The Witness : Western factories should be used as far as possible to provide men with artificial limbs, and if found necessary, Government factories should be started which would save congestion here in Toronto and remove the extreme annoyance, incojivenience, Iosp of time and expense to the men and the Government. By the Chairman: Q. If you and your friends should remain over in Toronto until to-morrow, I would suggest that you visit the artificial limb factory here. You will be very much interested in learning what they are doing and what their difiiculties are? — A. I quite understand. We have a limb factory in Calgary, and we have sent men from Calgary to Toronto when the limbs could have been made there. Also I became very interested in artificial limb making since I heard the evidence given before you and ■have questioned several men on the street in Toronto with regard to it. They were satisfied with the legs that are turned out, and I have been told on more than one occasion that they are not getting satisfaction in the case of the arms. They favour the Games arms, which allow a man to use his fingers independently, and in the limb that they are making here the man can only use the thumb. In the case Y^•llere they give the men the Carnes arm they have to make special application and they have a certain amount of difficulty before they get it. By Mr, Pardee: Q. To whom do they make application? — A. I presume to the A.D.M.S. or the Military Hospitals Commission, whichever is taking charge of the work. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. That is, when they make application they specify what they want? — A. No, sir, but they are so satisfied that this Carnes arm is the best arm that they are aware of. I have no knowledge of it personally, but they are very anxious that they should be supplied with it, as it is more practical and lighter in weight. There is a patent attached to the Carnes arm which is not attached to the arm usually supplied. Q. Is there any agency representing the manufacturer of that arm in Toronto? — A. They are already securing some of these in the city through the Hospitals Com- mission. Q. Are there any other manufacturers of artificial limbs in the West except the one in Calgary ? — A. I am only aware of this one in Calgary. By Mr. Pardee: Q. How many hands are employed there? Mr. Hodgson : Ten or twelve men. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. When speaking to those soldiers and listening to their complaints regarding limbs supplied here, did you get any complaints regarding the legs supplied? — A. As rSergt. -Major Guilfoyle.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION . 905 regards legs they apparently have no complaints. I believe the patent on the Games only has reference to the arm. Q. Have you any complaint regarding the legs supplied at all? — A. Some men have been here for some considerable time. I do not understand the congestion. For instance, we have some cases where a man goes back to the West who has not already been supplied with an arm. Now, that man has secured suitable employment which he is anxious to retain. Now. that man has to leave his employment to come down to Toronto and he probably will be kept here for three months and his position will not be held open indefinitely for that time. Mr. Ross: I think your point is well taken, not only with regard to the West but for the Maritime Provinces as well. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. Have you ever seen a hand constructed so that a man can use a pencil? I have a man in my riding who made two hands himself. He has a bicycle repair .shop. He can do bicycle repairing, and can write with a pencil as legibly" as a man with his own hand. — A. I know in the illustrated papers, like the Sphere and the Illustrated London News they show wonderful i>erformances by artificial limbs at present being used in France and the Old Qountry. I am quite sure the men are satisfied the Government is prepared to give them the best arm possible. The Cii.\iRM.\N : Mr. Scammel tells me that there are already 30 of those Carnes arms on order for men in Toronto and he also states that not only you gentlemen, but any gentleman who comes here from Manitoba, Alberta, Saskatchewan or British Col- umbia will be welcome to-morrow morning to go over that limb factory. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. What do you think of the proposition that the Conmiission advertise a prize, for the best model of arms or legs? — A. I think it is a good idea, it might bring out an invention that would not otherwise be thought of. Mr. MmnLEBRO : I notice that there are advertisements to that effect in the Lon- don, England papers. By Mr. Bennett: Q. How many men are there in your district with only one leg or one arm? — A. There are about 12 or 15 without arms and I think possibly the same number with- out legs. We have a large number at present in the Convalescent Homes, such as Ogden, that are limbless, and who will eventually, unless the system is changed, have to come to Toronto to receive their limbs. As regards the teaching of a trade, I submit for your consideration that tailoring be taught; I suggest that the Government take over the miltary tailoring, where large numbers of men can be employed in making the clothing for the army, and these factories could teach tailoring to anybody and the men there would practically become wage earners from the start. The same remark would apply to shoe-making, saddlery, etc. Similar factories to what I have suggested in England arc working successfully. I know that the military clothing for the British Army, previous to this war, was done in the factory called Pimlico, in London, exclu- sively. The uniforms are cut and made by soldiers who are trained master tailors in the different regiments, and I do not see why a similar institution should not be successfully operated in Canada. If it were started here, it would be the means of employing a large number of men, and there would be the additional advantage that a large number of men would be taught the trade there, and they would afterwards go outside into commercial life and become practical tailors. This idea of teaching men to "cobble," to mend boots, and to put on a patch, is not enough; teach him the trade, so that he will become a good workman, and he would have a splendid opportunity of doing well. In those trades which I have suggested, the men without legs or arms would be able to find employment in the factories. [Sergt. -Major Guilfoyle.] 906 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETVIiNED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. You think that after the war the Government should make all its own clothing for the militia? — A. Yes, and these factories would become schools in which to teach the men the trade. Barbering is another trade that could be taught in these technical schools and also telegraphy. By Mr. Middlchro: Q. A man with a wooden leg could do the barbering or telegraphing? — A. Yes, sir. Now, sir, I am coming to a subject with reference to which I would be obliged if you will allow me to finish my remarks before giving me an examination on it. There is a considerable amount of discontent with the present Pensions Act, as discrimina- tion has been made between the officer and the man. Take $480, the amount you allow for total disability — I am quite aware of the additional allowance of $250 for those who are unable to attend to their physical want, but the large percentage of totally dis- abled will be able to look after themselves therefore they will not be entitled to the additional allowance. Also that an allowance has been provided for children but the great percentage will have no children, so that the $40 per month is far too small an allowance for the totally disabled soldier. Any man knows that with the present high cost of living it is impossible for a man to live on that allowance with that reasonable degree of comfort with which the country should provide our disabled soldiers. Pre- vious to 1914 we had very few professional officers, and those that we have now have been trained at the country's expense. The rank and file of the Canadian Army are drawn from all branches of professional, commercial and industrial life, the same as the commission rank, and a very large percentage of the commission rank got their office through social pull, and not through their military qualifications; therefore it is not fair to the rank and file to discriminate against them in the matter of pensions. I would make an exception in the case of the higher command where there are men of exceptional military ability, the majority of whom were professional soldiers. Cases can often be quoted where the company commander was socially on an equality with a private in his company and, previous to the war was, in some cases, dependent upon this private for his living. Also cases can be quoted where inexperienced officers got wounded shortly after getting to the seat of hostilities and where they received the pension for their rank although they had no experience or exceptional qualification. When speaking of total disability I am also bea'ring in mind the other disability though this would create a precedent, this war has been a series of precedents; I do not want to bring the captain down to the level of the private, but I would respectfully suggest that a pension which would permit a soldier, commissioned or otherwise, a reasonably sufficient supply of the comforts of life should be given. Unskilled labourers are, in the West, getting 35 cents per hour, or $84 per month. That is the average pay of the unskilled labourer in the West, and, may I state that the large percentage of our men have come from other ranks than the unskilled market. I respectfully place these suggestions as regards pensions before you, knowing that the present Act is not favourably received by the rank and file and that the object of this Commission is to remove the genuine grievances of the returned soldiers. By the Chairman: Q. Your main objection is that $40 per month is not enough for the totally dis- abled, but not helpless soldier, who has no children? — A. A man totally disabled is totally helpless, his living afterwards is very precarious, he may be able to do work for a month, or a week, and Ire may probably be sick for six weeks or six months, and unable to do any work, so that the allowance made to a totally disabled man must be sufficient to provide the ordinarj', reasonable, comforts of life for that man. Q. The man that you regard particularly in the West as being in need of further assistance is the man Avho is totally disabled and who gets his $40 per montli, but who is still able to wait on himself and does not get $250 for attendance? — A. So, sir. [Sert.-Major Guilfoyle.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 907 these remarks are also applicable to other disabilities. Take for instance — I can give you a case in point, that of a man who, to my knowledge has lost his right arm from the shoulder, not leaving a sufficient handle upon which to put an artificial arm or it can only be done with great inconvenience. That man according to the present rate of pen.^ions would receive $24 per month, and that man previous to the war was earning .$5 and over per day, as a mine-boss in a coal mine. Now that man will come back to this country, you may give him technical instruction to be a chaffeur, or a mechanical engineer, but you are not giving that man any security that he is going to receive, for the remainder of his life, employment in that particular line. It seems to me that you must bear in mind that that man has been deprived of following up his usual employment or profession, through the loss of his arm and is compelled therefore to choose or select another occupation which he will be allowed to follow, but he hasn't any security of continuous employment at that particular work which he adopts. By Mr. Bennett: Q. It was suggested here that that type of man might become a pit boss ? — A. But there is no guarantee that the man will get a position as a pit boss ? By the Chairman: Q. There is no guarantee that he could have kept his old job all his life? — A. Apparently the man could have in the ordinary course of events. Q. You are aware, of course, that in cases such as you describe a man will be entitled to re-education, and might take six months or a year getting a new education to make up to him by education what he had lost in his arm; you understand that? — A. I understand the drift of your remarks. Q. The Hospitals Commission undertake to receive a man of that kind and give him a new education to fit him for a new employment of equal lucrativeness to the one he has been following? — A- But there is no guarantee the man will receive employment at that particular branch. Q. But the probabilities would be that they would endeavour to train him towards an employment for which there was a demand? — A. And the new technical know- ledge that the man got might not bring the man's wages anything near what he was previously earning. Q. But the endeavour would be to have it so turn out? — A. But by raising the present pensions you would compensate the man better for the loss of that arm, and he would be better able to provide for himself, and that additional provision would be made for his future life. Another thing I will take up is the reimbursing of men. There have been cases where a man has been discharged from the army and he has to spend money in doctor's fees for treatment of injuries received through which he was discharged from the service. The fees incurred by a man suffering from disease or injuries caused by active service, subsequent to discharge, and afterwards re-attested for further treatment, should be allowed. We have been very glad to see that amend- ment has been made to the Pension x\ct whereby a man can be re-attested and brought on the strength of the army for treatment; but there have been cases where men have had to spend quite a considerable amount of money in the treatment of those diseases; therefore I would say that where a man can produce his doctor's bill to show that that money was spent for that particular disability, that amount should be allowed by the Government. 'Mr. !^^lnDLKBRO: Provided it is reasonable. By the Chairman: Q. Your idea is, then, that if a man is discharged and afterwards becomes ill, and endeavours with his own money to pay his doctor's expenses, and runs up a bill, [Sergt. -Major Guilfoyle.] 908 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS and filially appeals to the hospital authorities, and is put back into hospital, that the bill incurred in the interval of discharge should be also assumed by the Govern- ment? — A. That is my idea. Q. Novp, vi^ould it be satisfactory if an order were passed by which all attested soldiers might have the right for a given period to call upon the A^D.M.S. for medical advice and assistance? — A. That would provide for the case, but these cases have already occurred. Mr. Hodgson : Last summer I was taken sick in Calgary ; I applied to Major Johnston, A.D.M.S. He gave me a prescription, and I went to the druggist and had to pay $4.50 for my own medicine. By the Chairman: Q. Were you eventually re-attested, and did you go back to hospital? — A. No, I could not get a board. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Did yon apply for a board? — A. Yes. Q. Through whom?— A. The A.D.M.S. Q. What did he say? — A. He was too busy; he didn't have time; I was to go back; I am still going back yet. Q. Have you got a board yet? — A. No, I got tired of it. Q. How long is it since you made the application? — A. I was discharged just a year ago this month. I was discharged on half pension, as we called it at that time; I waited three months for my pension, and it did not come through. I then applied to the Hospitals Commission. They notified the A.D.M.S. The A.D.M.S. said that I was discharged without pension. The Hospitals Commission at once took the matter up with Ottawa. Ottawa said that my case, they had never been notified of my case. Later on I got a letter from Ottawa through Major Johnston, A.D.M.S., to say that they had found my papers in an old box, thrown to one side with a lot of others, and they would take the matter up immediately. Q. When was that? — A. This was last summer; I haven't got the exact date. Then a few days after that I got a letter from the A.D.M.S. to say I was to go up and have my case re-opened. I went into the Board room. I was never examined; I was just told to get out, and that my case would be looked into. I then waited another two months. Altogether I waited eight months before I got any pension. Q. Before you got a pension? — A. Before I got any money at all. They acknow- ledged that I had been placed on pension, later on. Then they put me back on pay for six months. I gave up my discharge paper and received another one; it is dating to September. I got my $8 a month; they reduced me down from what it was, $1G a month, to $8 a month. I never was examined. I was told to go up different times, and every time I would go up there they said they were too busy; and it is still the same way yet. Q. You have never been examined yet? — A. No, sir. I was just told to go in, and they looked me over with my clothes on. Mine was a gassed case, and at different intervals I used to have bad spells, as much as two a week, sometimes twice a day. In Calgary many a time I dropped down in the street. I got my first pension cheque in November. Two days after I got my first pension cheque, which I was supposed to have a pension for a year, I got another letter from the A.D.M.S. saying I was to go up and have another medical board. Of course I am working; I have to work for my living, and I can't afford to run up there every half day in the week. I spent 5 half days in one week, and never got any satisfaction, and I got tired, and I have never been back since. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : * Q. Who is that A.D.M.S.?— A. Major Johnston. [Mr. Harold Hodgson.] RECEPTWS, TREATMEyT AXD RE-EDUCATION 909 By Mr. Fardee: Q. Where does he live? — A. In Calgary. Mr. Guilfoyle: Another matter I would like to bring to the Committee's notice is this. We have a large number of men who are joining and have been accepted in the Civil Service. Now, men who have joined the Civil Service should be allowed the time since they joined the Canadian Expeditionary Force, as though they had been in the service, to count for pay and pension. I think you will find such a system existing in Great Britain and Ireland, where one branch of the service is allowed time in that way; and esi^ecially in the Canadian Expeditionary Force I think it would be a nice recognition of their services if they were given that privilege. By the Chairman: Q. That is, their time as Civil Servants should count from the day of their enlistment? — A. They should have this time to count towards pay and pension. Another matter which is very often discussed by returned men, and which was a subject of a resolution at one of our ordinary meetings recently where 300 were present, and that is that alien enemies should be disfranchised. For example, if those men have any influence in the Government of the country they would undoubtedly introduce bills detrimental to the returned soldiers. I believe if such an Act were put into the statutes by the Government it would be joyfully received by the whole of the people of Canada. Q. Whom do you mean by alien enemies? — A. Such as Austrians and Germans — persons born in enemy countries. Those men at the present time in Saskatchewan have the majority of votes, and those men would introduce bills detrimental to the returned soldiers. Q. How far back would you go with that? — A. I would leave that to the dis- cretion of the Government. Q. You are laying down the principle only? — A. Yes. Q. Men born in countries with which we are at present at war? — A. Should be disfranchised. Q. During the war? — A. Yes,, and afterwards, and the next coming election, whether provincial or Dominion, because they will have the majority of the votes. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. Even if they have been naturalized? — A. If they have been naturalized previous to the war I would place a limit of five years, because it will show them the men intended to become genuine Canadian citizens. Q. You would let him vote? — A. I would leave that to the discretion of the Government. Q. Supposing an alien enemy has become a naturalized Canadian before the war broke out, you would not put penalties on that man, would you? — A. Well, sir, a man who did not become naturalized before the war — we can only look on him as an alien enemy pure and simple. Q. But I am speaking of the case where he becomes naturalized? — A. Once a German always a German and I believe these men will vote in a way detrimental to the interests of the returned soldiers. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. You would not allow anyone who had become naturalized under five years to vote? — A. I would not. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Your legislation would correspond with the British legislation in taking away the titles from the Duke of Cximberland and Duke of Albany ?— A. That should have [Sergt.-Major Guilfoyle.] 910 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS been done long ago. A great deal of delay has been caused by keeping men hanging around waiting on board. The men should be allowed travelling expenses. Q. Do you moan the medical boards? — A. The men should be allowed travelling expenses when having to attend before a pension board, as many of them will have to come long distances and leave their work. This would also prevent any unnecessary delay in boarding the men, as the board would be called upon to explain any unneces- sary expense. If I were called upon to attend the board a certain day and I was not dealt with on that day the board should be called upon to account for why I was not boarded on that day, incurring an extra day's allowance, and that would do away with a great deal of this " call to-morrow." By the Chairman: Q. Where a man breaks down, having been previously discharged, would you have him re-committed at his expense? — A. He will be examined by his local prac- titioner, and upon the report of the local doctor he will be forwarded to be examined by the board at his nearest headquarters. Q. You want to put the man in every part of your province on exactly the same basis? — A. Yes. Q. So that there would be no disadvantage to the man living 300 miles away from Calgary? — A. No, that man will have two or three days to reach military head- quarters. He has lots of time to get boarded, and I believe you will find that there will be great delay in the case of men drawing small pensions being re-examined, unless provision is made for their travelling allowance. Q. I understand where the Government has summoned a man to attend — not where he comes himself — that they think the Government should allow pay and travelling expenses, hotel bills covering his expenses there and back? — A. I do, sir. Another suggestion is that all Canadians abroad who have joined any of His Majesty's forces, or those of his Allies, in the present war be entitled to the benefit of any settle- ment scheme or other scheme submitted by the Government. This woxild also include any reservists of the Allies who resided in this country previous to the war, and who left this country after the war to join their respective armies. Q. While you are speaking of the status of the family in Imperial enlistments, how about the imperial pensions in this country. Are they adequate? — A, That I cannot tell you. I have not a copy of the Pensions Act, neither do I know a man that has drawn pensions. Q. You have a considerable number cf widows in Alberta who are the widows of Imperial Army men? — A. Yes. Q. Who have been killed in British regiments in this war? — A. Yes. Q. Is their pension adequate to live on in Alberta? — A. I cannot tell you. Q. That has not been brought to your notice ?-^A. No. Q. If a man was a British reservist and went from Alberta and served in the British regiments in France, would he be eligible for membership in your association? — A. A man who lived in Alberta? Q. And joined a British regiment? — A. And subsequently returned to Canada? Q. Yes?— A. Undoubtedly I would include those. In looking over the objects of this Committee I notice you refer to receptions, and I am of the opinion they are inclined to become cooler as time wears on, probably owing to the public becoming familiar with the large number of returned soldiers coming back. It must be disap- pointing to a great many of our lads to see the coldness of their reception on return- ing to their homes, after practically sacrificing all for their country. A direction should be sent out by the Government calling for the formation of civil reception committees to meet our returned wounded and disabled men and to welcome them back in the name of the Dominion, and such a welcome would remain a lasting souvenir in the memory of our lads. You will see many men coming back and you will probably see the porter, the wife and a couple of children at the station, and that [Sergt.-Major (lUilfoyle.] RECEPTIOy, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 911 man will be looking forward to a civic reception where the mayor and aldermen of the council would meet him and welcome him back in the name of the Dominion, and the citizens of Canada are becoming so familiar with the number coming back that the spirit is dying although perhaps it may live in your large centres where there are several organizations which may go there to meet them, but in the west, and the east I am afraid also, that spirit of welcoming the men back and giving them a dinner or a banquet is dying out. By Mr. Sutherland : Q. Is that not because of the fact that the people did not know that they were coming, particularly in the smaller places? — A. We have not taken up that particular branch. The Hospitals Commission might notify the people days beforehand of the arrival of these men in a certain district, and plenty of time given to organize a com- mittee to meet and receive these men. Q. But as a matter of fact they are not notified and a great many arrive at their home town without any notice having been sent home? — A, It is quite easy for a reception committee to find out from the pensions board and the Hospitals Commis- sion when the next band of wounded will come in. Q. I am speaking of the small place where there is no reception committee and no notice has been forwarded to the village or whoever is in authority there that the men are coming home? — A. That could be done. Now, there is another matter, gentlemen. By the Chairman: Q. May I interrupt you a moment? Mr. Stutchbury told us in his evidence that he had several hundred branches scattered throughout Alberta. Are they not notified from the Division Centre? — A. They are notified by Mr. Stutchbury. I believe he wires them that certain men are coming to the District. Q. Well then, your machinery is working all right? — A. The authorities in the Calgary District, as far as I know, are co-operating in every way possible for the benefit, and the benefit alone, of the returned man. Q. So that the local organization gets notice that the man is coming, and if he is not met when he arrives it is owing to a lack of response on the part of the citizens? — A. It is owing to a lack of response on the part of the citizens ; but I tnay say that we have the co-operation of the civic authorities in Calgary in every way for the better- ment of the condition of the returned soldiers. Another matter I wish to touch upon is land settlement. I am not going to go deeply into it, as two of my colleagues in the Association, who are experienced farmers, are here. But there is a statement made by Mr. Kidner in his evidence before your Committee at Ottawa, when he stated that out of 340 men only six made a direct appeal to go on the land. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. In Alberta ? — A. That was in Alberta. That was when the 3iO men practically composed the whole of the returned soldiers in Alberta, and I do not think that you will get a large percentage of the men who are desirous of going on the land to do so until a Government scheme has been submitted and its features are known to the men. At a meeting held by the Association of which I am president, convened especially for the purpose of discussing this land question and attended by some 200 odd men, I asked if there were a suitable land scheme put forward by the Government, what percentage of that meeting would go on the land to become producers. Seventy per cent signified their willingness to do so. You may say that is a large percentage, but I was very particular in ascertaining the sentiment of the meeting, as I wanted the information to lay before this Committee. The men in the proportion I have indicated [Sergt.-Major Guilfoyle.] 912 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETUHNED SOLDIERS said they would go on the land and become producers if a suitable laud scheme were brought forward by the Government. Because we realize, and the average man who returns from the front now realizes the stringency that will occur in the financial market and the congestion there will be in the labour market all over this country; and if a suitable land scheme were decided upon our men would take up land in great numbers and would become producers to the great benefit of the country. I believe if that wore done a surprising number of returned soldiers would take advantage of the opportunity. By Mr. Sutherland: ^ Q. What would you suggest as a suitable scheme? — A. I will leave that to be explained by my two colleagues who accompanied me in order to make representations on this occasion. Q. Was the matter discussed at any of your meetings? — A. Yes, and at great length. Just to give you an illustration of how keen the sentiment is in the West on this land scheme. Previous to coming down here I held five informal meetings to discuss this matter, meetings of a conversational character. The men came in large numbers night after night and remained until 11 and half past 11 talking it over. More so in the West than in the East the returned soldiers are farmers, or have been employed on farms. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Are there any unemployed soldiers in Calgary at the present time? — A, The civic authorities and the Board of Trade co-operate with us in finding employment for returned soldiers. The men are also given positions, wherever possible, under the Pro- vincial and Dominion Governments, and private firms likewise do their best to supply positions. These are sufficient for the present, but I doubt whether we will be able to provide employment for the large nimibers of men who will be returning in four, five or six months at the rate af 50 or 60 a week. Then the problem will really become a serious one. By the Chairman: Q. Then your land settlement scheme will be necessary? — A. Yes, a land scheme will be necessary. We have at the present moment men who are physically fit to go upon the land if a suitable scheme is inaugurated. I would ask you, gentlemen, to take my opinion as that of a man who is interested, not only in his own welfare but in that of his comrades, and I believe that immediate action should be taken in connec- tion with the question of land settlement. Q. W^hat was your employment before you went to the war? — A. I was a clerk. Q. Are you employed at present? — A. Yes, sir. Q. In the same line of business ? — A. The same line of business. By Mr. Pardee : Q. Are you a clerk in a wholesale establishment? — A. I am in the Dominion Customs Service. By the Chairman: Q. I understood you to say that Messrs. Harold Hodgson and G. Wells are both prepared to speak on this land question. Shall we hear them next? — A. If you please, sir. The CiiAinMAN : Well, gentlemen, we will hear what you have to say. Mr. Wklls: As our President has told you, we called our members together at a number of meetings to discuss the question of land settlement. We could not take action in any special direction because we were working in the dark, and we did not know what the principles would be of any scheme which might be put forward. Different [Mr. Wells.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATWN 913 speakers got up and advocated different suggestions. If you like, I will leave with you a list of the different suggestions which were made at- those meetings and which seemed to meet with approval. By the Chairman: Q. You might read suggestions and explain them to us? — A. I will read the sug- gestions and explain them. The first suggestion, which was endorsed by the majority of the meii, was that 320 acres of land ai-e necessary to each man in Alberta, for the following reasons: That owing to the backward spring and light rainfall in Alberta, it is necessary that a man should have more land than he cultivates to make a successful farm. The Government has recognized that by giving a man a homestead and a pre- emption. Our average rainfall in Alberta is somewhere about 14 inches a year. If that fell between April and August in the growing season, it would be abundant. Unfortunately most of it conies in the form of snow in the winter time, dries up on the high land, and in the low places runs into creeks, rivers and sloughs. Practically all the moisture that falls between November and April does not penetrate into the land at all. Whereas if a man has his land prepared and summer-fallowed, and follows a course of dry farming that conserves the moisture and he gets the benefit of two season snow-fall or rain-fall. Another thing is, we get a very late fall, the harvest is late and sometimes it is away on in September before we begin to cut. I have been a resident of Calgary for 24 years and I remember one year in particular when there were five distinct snowstorms before the 1st of October. I am not trying to knock the country, but it just shows you how impossible it is for the farmer to do much fall work. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. When the country is on its bad behaviour? — A. Yes. There are seasons when a man cannot do considerable fall ploughing. There are seasons when a farmer who thrashes from the stook may be delayed in getting his crop off the land by bad weather, or inability to get the thrasher, thus shortening his fall ploughing. Now, dealing with the matter of land settlement, if the Government brings forward a scheme the land will not belong to the settler until he gets his patent. As the land is the property of the State the settler has to be paid for doing the improvements so as to enable him to live and our idea is that the improvements that he does should be paid for by the state and that if he gets dissatisfied he is paid for his labour and can leave it and change his vocation. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. He gets paid? — A. That is a debt he owes the state. Q. That is another clause then? — A. Yes. (Reads): 3. Lumber, implements, etc., to be supplied at wholesale rates. 4. From two to four horses to be supplied each man, half mares. The reason for that is that in the spring, if a man wants to make a quick trip into town he can do it. (Reads) : 5. If he wants to go in for dairying, two to six cows to be provided him, the state to insure this stock. We are going on the supposition that the Government would give a man a loan lo enable him to become a producer right away. It has been suggested that the Govern- ment keep these men on farms under pay and separation allowance. We prefer, sir, that these men be capitalized, that they should be given a loan. Supposing a man is given a loan of $2,000 at 5 per cent, and at the end of five years he should have defaulted in his interest every year, the loss would be only $500. If you were to 28277—58 fMr. WeUs.] 914 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS keep him under pay, you are going to absorb $500 and at the end of five years he may not be self-supporting then, (Eeads) : 6. Males to be kept at central farms to which he must breed this stock. The stock is the property of the Government and will not be turned over to him until paid for. At the same time it would be necessary for many settlers to be in one particular district before this can be done. 7. This stock to be paid for in the following manner: The settler to return a two-year old colt which would be inspected by the stock inspector; this shall be taken as payment for one horse. In a practical scheme, I myself, as a practical farmer, would prefer to receive a two-year old colt "than one which had been handled by everj^ Tom, Dick and Harry. A colt two years old is practically raised. (Keads) : A two-year-old beast shall be returned in like manner when the colt would then be the property of the settler. When the man shall have raised feed, brood sows shall be> provided on the same terras. A pig six months old returned for each sow, when the original shall be the property of the soldier. 8. A loan of $2,000 shall be made to each man; this shall be free from interest for three years; principal shall be spread over a term of twenty years. 9. At the end of five years, if he has raised three crops, patent shall be issued to him for the land; the Government taking a lien on the land for any balance due it. If a man has had misfortune, by the issue of the patent, there is very little land in Alberta that he can not secure private companies that would gladly take up that obligation of $2,000 on the land, but in most cases the man would have paid for everything. By Mr. Ross: Q. It is free land in the first place? — A, Yes, sir. (Reads) : 10. Each man shall choose the amount of breaking to be done the first , year from 20 to 100 acres. 11. He shall also choose the kind of building he erects. The idea for the whole scheme being production of grain and stock. In this way the bulk of the loan would go into stock and not into buildings. We want the Government to go into this scheme with us in a business-like way, and not permit the entire loan to go into buildings and leave nothing at all for live stock. I myself bought two cows and five two-year-old heifers in 1894; I never had a place that cost me five cents. I made my buildings out of logs, hay, willows and things like that. I kept my seven head of stock for five years, and at the end of five years I sold forty, kept one for myself, and I had sold and lost 13, so I had raised, alto- gether, 54 head in five years. From one cow alone I had seven. I had her, a four- year-old heifer, and three cows producing, and four head of other stock from this one in five years. (Eeads) : In this way the bulk of the loan would go into stock and not into build- ings, which would be unproductive. 12. Men to be assisted financially until they get returns from the land. Seed grain, horse feed, etc., furnished at wholesale rates. [Mr. WeUs.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 915 If a man is provided with implements and feed, there is no reason why he cannot go out in one summer and be self-supporting. He could even earn good money putting up hay. (Eeads) : 13. As the land and improvements are the property of the state until patent is issued, the settler shall not pay interest on them until he receives the patent. 11. All positions as overseers and inspectors, etc., of this scheme shall be filled b," returned mon of ability. We feel that we have sufficient talent right among our own boys to run any scheme that is operpted fcr the returned soldier. Another point is that where a man is physically disabled he ought to be allowed to take these benefits by proxy. Take my own case: I am a practical farmer and market gardener. I cannot follow my own employment, becaur>e I was discharged with a swollen left knee. While this is an old affair, it has been aggravated in service, for I slipped on the ship and injured my knee. At the same time, when I get back to this country, I told the board that I was able to follow my old employment, but I find I cannot. Although I am not com- plaining, 1 have to wear an elastic band or I could not walk at all. I have a son-in- law who is a veteran of the South African war, who lives in the city. He could do my duties by proxy. There are lots of men in that position, as well as widows where laud conld be improved and held in trust for the children, and the widow would get the benefit. (Beads) : The Veterans Club of Calgary would respectfully ask this Committee to grant the returned men of Canada thirty days to discuss the scheme before finally approved of by the Dominion Parliament at Ottawa. By the Uhairman: Q. Have you anything further to suggest? — A. These are the views of the men and they cover only two branches of farming, stock and grain. I am a practical market gardener, and there is only one scheme that could be introduced that would be satisfactory. Every branch of farming should be considered. The examination of Mr. Hodgson resumed. Mr. Hodgson : The only thing I would like to say is that before the Government bring forward any land scheme I would like to have it presented to the veterans so that they can take it under consideration for thirty days. Mr. Bennett: You mean that after a Bill is brought down it should be widely circulated and no official action taken until thirty days have elapsed? — A. Yes, sir. By the Chairman: Q. Would you wish to have a hearing at Ottawa when the Bill is brought down? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Your organization is sufiiciently crystallized so that you could send a thor- oughly representative delegation whose views would be accepted by those who sent tliem? — A. Yes, sir, practical men at that. Witnesses discharged. 28277— 58i [Mr. Harold Hodgson.] 916 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Mr. W. A. Macdonald, of the Canadian Association of Returned Soldiers, Edmon- ton District, called, sworn and examined: By the Chairman: Q. Mr. Macdonald, you have been here, I think, yesterday and to-day, and have heard the general trend of the evidence given. Would you say that you concur to date with all that has already been said? — A. Yes, our association formed about three months ago, and we have been taking up the fight of the men in general who have come back. With regard to the complaints that we have received, the greatest complaint up to date is regarding pay and pensions. Q. You say that your greatest dissatisfaction is with regard to the pay and pen- sions? — A. I do not think there is a man, at least, nine out of ten of the men that come back gets a satisfactory statement of their pay. Q. What do they bring back with them?-^A. Nothing. Q. Have they not their pay books? — A. They have not. Q. Or their last pay certificate? — A. They have their last pay certificate, but that is all, unless the man has taken the precaution of taking down a duplicate of the pay- ments made in his pay book. He has nothing to show as to whether he received his pay or not and that causes a lot of dissatisfaction all along the line. Q. Now this matter of pay has come up several times, and I am going to ask you again if any of the men have ever expressed a doubt or had any reason to believe that their pay statement was not correctly prepared? — A. In what way do you mean? Q. Do the men suspect or believe that their pay statements, in England or here, have been incorrectly prepared? — A. Undoubtedly, in some cases they do. Q. Do they think that it is a mistake, or that it was done deliberately? — A. I may say that in some cases they think it was done deliberately, but I cannot give you any specific case. Q. You cannot give me any case where a man believes that he was deliberately done out of money that was due to him? — A. No, I could not give you a specific case. Q. Have any of the men ever intimated that they thought there was dishonesty on the part of the paymaster? — A. There is a great deal of that. Q. You hear that the men think there was absolute dishonesty on the part of the paymaster? — A. Yes. Of course we talk about that matter more or less freely among ourselves, but you understand, I would not like to make any statement about it pub- licly, but there is no doubt whatever the impression remains in the minds of the men that such is the case. Q. Would that be in England or in Canada? — A. As far as the overseas men are concerned, it would be in England and in France. Q. What do they suspect as a matter of fact, in what way do they think they are getting a ' raw deal," if I may use that expression ? — A. I suppose they think that the paymasters are helping themselves a little bit out of their earnings. Q. You have heard that expression of opinion by the returned men? — A. Yes. Q. Have you heard that expression of opinion frequently? — A. I cannot say frequently, but I have heard it on different occasions. Q. Have they ever been able to present anything tangible to support that sus- picion? — A. I have never taken that up with them, but I daresay it could be followed up. Q. I think you would be conferring a favour on the committee and on the country generally if you have any proof of anything of that kind, if you will let us have it. Now what is the chief trouble about the pay, is it delay ? — A. Yes. Delay in the pay. Q. Or is it that the men are dissatisfied with the amount standing to their credit? — A. That is the trouble in some cases, but in most cases it is the delay; that is the greatest cause of dissartisfaction when the men come back, that they have to wait so long before getting their pay. CMr. W. A. Macdonald.] HECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 917 Q. What agency have you now in Northern Alberta that takes that matter up '( — A. Just the one, the Military Hospitals' Commission. Q. Have you any branch of ^Ir. Stutchbury's Central Provincial Committee there? — A. Mr. Stutchbury, as far as I can make out, handles both ends of it. Q. You say that the Military Hospitals Commission and Mr. Stutchbury's Com- mission are practically one and the same thing in Edmonton? — A. Yes. Q. Who does the work there? — A. Mr. Stutchbury does most of the work there. Q. He told us that he travelled most of the time. Who does the work when he is on the road? — A. He has a clerk in the office who does the work while he is away. Q. Pie has a man there who is able to secure satisfaction for you? — A. There is another organization there run by a civilian, a man put in there by a body of citizens, called the Returned Soldiers' Bureau. As far as I can make out it is something after the style of the Returned Soldiers' Aid down here, only it is run by contributions from the city. Q. Do they give relief in hard cases? — A. No, they do not — well they have done so in the past, but we are doing all that now. Q. With money that you yourselves collect? — A. Partly with the money that the ladies of Edmonton contribute, and partly by the proceeds of concerts and entertain- ments and other things like that. Q. Now what is their principal objection regarding pensions? Have you any- thing to add regarding pensions to what you have already heard? — A. I do not think so. I do not think I can enlarge any on what Mr. Guilfoyle has said. ' Q. You concur with his views? — A. Absolutely, especially in the equalization of pensions; that is a matter we have threshed out very carefully, and we are all of one mind as to that. Q. That is the equalization of pensions between the men and the officers? — A. Yes. Q. What about the land scheme, do you share the view of the Calgary deputation in that respect ? — A. The view that we have on that is that the land scheme should come from the Government, and that we should be given notice in plenty of time in order that we may give the matter proper consideration. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. Do you mean that the land scheme should be discussed with you and with your association before it is adopted by the Government? — A. It should be discussed by all the returned men. ^ Q. That is the Government should give you an opportunity of discussing the scheme before its adoption? — A. Exactly. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. H your association were to meet and prepare a scheme which you could submit to the Government would not that be as satisfactory as it would be to submit to your association a bill that the Government might bring in? — A, I could not answer that, because we have not discussed the matter. Q. I had in mind the question of time, and I thought that if your association were to submit a scheme to the Government it would take the least time, and that is what you appear to be most concerned about? — A. I think either way would work satisfactorily. Q. Having regard to the need for expedition whichever plan would consume the least time would be the best? — A. Exactly. By the Chairman: Q. Have you anything further you would care to add to what you have already stated ?— A. I do not think so. I did not come down here prepared to speak of specific cases of neglect or anything like that, because I did not know, on the short notice that I received, exactly what I was asked to come here for. [Mr. W. A. Macdonald.] 918 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETUIiN ED SOLDIERH Q. But you came down here to give us information, and you found that the other western represoutatives have covered the ground you intended to go over? — A. Yes, sir, especially the deputation from Calgary. Q. And you think that Sergeant Guilfoyle's statement covers the case? — A. Absolutely. Witness discharged. Mr. James H. Hill, Secretary of the Eeturned Soldiers' Commission, Victoria, B.C., called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. What position do you hold in respect to the provincial organization? — A. I am the secretary of the Provincial Commission. Q. Appointed under the British Cblumbia Government? — A. Yes, sir, by order in council. Q. Will you file a copy of that order in council? — A. Yes, sir, I will have to send one down. Q. Will you also file a list of the members comprising that Commission? — A. I oan give you that. Q. You might give it to us now? — A. The Chairman is Dr. H. E. Young, of Victoria. The members are: Major A. E, Todd, representing the city of Victoria; Major A. W. Gray, representing the city of New Westminster; A. E. Planta, Esq., representing the city of Nanaimo; Alderman E. H. Cale, representing the city of Vancouver; A. C. Burdick, representing the Returned Soldiers' Employment Com- mittee of Victoria; E. W. Hamber, representing the Returned Soldiers' Committee of the Canadian Club of Vancouver, and two ex-ofiicio members, F. W. Peters, of the C.P.R., Vancouver, and J. S. H. Matson, of Victoria; these are the two representa- tives of the Military Hospitals Commission, and they are members of the Provincial Commission. Q. Have you any members on the Commission who represent the Returned Soldiers' Associations? — A. Not on the Provincial Commission; there are some on the local bodies. Q. I understand, then, that you have branches scattered throughout the province? — A. Yes, sir, we have 79 — we are represented now at 79 points through the province; 59 are our own organized committees and 20 correspondents. Q. Those are local committees? — A. Yes. Q. And do those local committees contain representatives of returned soldiers? — A. They can, and we wish them to, as they have the men there to put on the committees; I do not know definitely. Q. What is the general policy about inviting them? — A. Well, that is left to the local committee, and that is out intention, that they shall do everything in harmony with the returned soldiers, and that would be my idea of their procedure. Q. What work do you undertake to accomplish? — A. Primarily our object was to endeavour to provide or secure employment for the returned soldiers; that is the primary idea when the Commissions were formed, working in conjunction with the Military Hospitals Commission; but we do not restrict ourselves to that, we endeavour to do anything and everything that the returned soldiers wants done. We do not guarantee to do what he wants done, but we endeavour to do what he wants done. Q. Do you relieve distress as well? — A. Financially? Q. Yes? — A. No, we do not disburse any money. We expect our local committees to look after cases. Q. With money raised locally from the kind-hearted public? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How many men have come back to British Columbia? — A. At the end of February we had on our record 1,251; 1,112 of those were reported to us through the discharge depot, and 139 sundry cases, including 52 camp cases ; that makes a total of 1,251. riVTr Tnmps W Will 1 RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 919 Q. You have camp cases also, do you? — A. Yes. Q. You make no distinction? — A. I have always tried to make ahsolutely no dis- tinction. I have always pointed out to the local committees that we want to do every- thing: possible for men who enlisted and were honourably discharged. Q. How many of those 1,251 have secured employment ? — A, Our Committees had listed for employment 639, and provided employment for 590, leaving at the end of the month 49 on the Committee's files awaiting employment. Q. Between the 639 and the 1,251 are men in hospital or men who went to their own homes without needing your assistance? — A. 438 in hospitals and sanatoria and diverted for treatment, leaving 813. 639 of those applied for employment through the local Committees; they do not necessarily go to the Committees. Q. You have only 49 men on your list at present who are seeking employment? — A. That is at the end of February. Q. Is there ample employment for them, or is it just a m'atter of adjusting? — A. Largely a matter of adjustment. So far we have been able to take care of the situation very satisfactorily. Q. Are you taking anything like an industrial census of British Columbia with a view of finding what opportunities there are? — A. Yes, sir, the vocational officer of the M. H. C, who works in very close harmony with us, is making an industrial survey of the province, and there was also made a survey Q. Is that being done in conjunction with the National Service Commission? — A. No, sir, he is making that independently, but any information that we get that will be of assistance to the local Director of National Service will be given him if required. I fent him a supply of the forms used by the vocational officer. Q. You are familiar with the work of the Military Hospitals Commission in British Columbia, I suppose? — A. Yes, sir; not of course in detail like a member of the staff. Q. Has there been any shortage of accommodation for returned soldiers requir- ing hospital treatment or convalescent treatment? — A. There are out-patients. Q. Who might better be in the hospitals ? — A. Well, of course I think myself, just speaking for myself, that there should be no out-patients, but that is a matter of opinion, I suppose. The officer commanding the unit told me just before I left that he would be in a position immediately to have no out-patients at all. Q. That is, that provision is being made for all likely requirements? — A. Yes, sir; that is what he said. By Mr. Pardee: Q. About the vocational training, what classes of work are being done in British Columbia to fit men for re-employment? Have you the employments classified at which you put back those men who were returned? — A. Yes. We have provided employment for 590 men. In providing them we have found them 852 positions. Q. That is one man has left more than one position? — A. For instance, we have found position in various employments for men as follows: — [Mr. James H. Hill.] 920 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Classes in \ocatioi:ial work are being lield at the convalescent hospitals under the direction of the vocational officer. Instruction is given in English, book- keeping, arithmetic, penmanship, business correspondence, stenography, typewriting, mechanical drawing, ^\ood carving nvA gasolene engine work. The men are also given instruction in poultry and bee-keeping and in raising rabbits and squabs. There are also additional courses provided for the men at business colleges and free siiort courses in agriculture, cue given by the University of British Columbia. Agents, station Bakers Barbers Bartenders Blacksmiths Book-keepers Construction foreman . . Canners Caretakers Carpenters Chauffeurs Checkers Civil Service clerks. . . Clerks (bank) " (general (grocery) . . . . , (hotel) " (insurance) . . . " (railway) Commercial traveller. . Cooks Canvassers Draughtsmen Drillers Drivers Druggists Electricians Engineers (general) . . " (locomotive) " (electrical) . . " (civil) " (marine) . . . Farmers Firemen Firemen (fire department) (stationary) . . . . Fishermen Firemen (locomotive) . . . . Fire and forest rangers. . . , Gamekeeper and wardens. . Gardeners Guards Hospital orderlies Hotel porters Inspectors Janitors Junk dealers Labourers Lawyers Lumbermen Machinists Marine (general) " (firemen) Mechanics Messengers Metal workers Millmen Miners . Motormen Motor mechanics Packeis Painters Plasterers Plumbers Policemen Post office Printers Railroad employees (general) Stewards Salesmen Seamen Shoemakers Students Storekeepers Street railway employees . . . . Surveyors' assistants .... . . Teamsters Telegraph operators Timekeeper Tobacconist Waiters Warehousemen Watchmakers Watchmen Woodworkers Elevator men Customs house clerks Sundries • • • Munition workers Q. By Mr. Middlehro: How many farmers are on that list? — A. ISTineteen. Out of how many? — A. Six hundred and thirty-nine. By Mr. Ross: You mean you sent nineteen men out to work on farms ? — A. Yes. As hired men? — A. Yes. By Mr. Middlehro : About three per cent?- -A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. That figures out that you have to have about 10 jobs at your disposal in order to fit seven men in? — A. About that. Of course I think that it must be remembered [Mr. James H. Hill.] I RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 921 that a number of those would be naturally temporary jobs. Of course we do not restrict ourselves. I tell our local committee not to restrict themselves to finding a man one job or two jobs, but to find them as many as they can till he is satisfied, Q. Do you think you are goinj^ to have any residue of men that will keep no job that you give them? — A. Well, I do not think that there ought to be a great many. Q. If there are a few what would you do with them? — A. "Well, there are boimd to be a few, I think. Q. Do you think it is necessary to have a soldiers' home in British Columbia for the returned soldier that apparently cannot take care of himself? — A. I think it is too early to say. I think we would have to wait until we saw a greater number of men back and how they dispose of themselves and how they were absorbed. Q. It is too early to consider that problem? — A. It is too far ahead I think to con- sider that. Q. Have you any land scheme in British Columbia that you have considered? — A. Our commission prepared a land settlement scheme. Q. Would you be good enough to describe it briefly and put it into our record ? — A. The principle is a community settlement. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Have you published a report? — A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. Will you produce it? — A. This is the report (producing report). The Chairmax : This will be put in our records. By Mr. Bennett: Q. The enormous cost of clearing land which is covered with heavy vegetation makes the problem very difficult. There is a limited area of farm land; that is the whole trouble? — A. As far as the province is concerned? Q. Yes. You have a thick meadow and a valley up near Fort George, and around about that section, but you have no large areas in British Columbia except those cov- ered with large forests, the clearing of which costs a considerable sum of money? — A. At the last session there was a Bill passed under which certain lands will revert to the Crown. That is lands that were taken up and final settlement not made, and it is the intention of the present Government to put into eifect a land settlement policy along the lines of that report — a community settlement. Q. That Rural Credit Act of last session does not touch this fact, that you are short of available agricultural land, except that which will cost enormous sums of money to clear. That is the condition in British Columbia? — A. The land clearing is a great factor. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Have you not a considerable portion of the Peace River district in British Columbia? — A. There are Dominion lands on the Peace river. By the Chairman: Q. I suppose that land scheme is all set forth in the printed document which you file? — A. Yes, those are our recommendations with regard to community land settle- ments. The legislation which is being brought down was not far enough advanced when I left to allow of my bringing a copy but it will be along those lines. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Do you work in connection with the Military Hospitals Commission, or are you a part of the Military Hospitals Commission or are you connected with that Com- mission? — A. No. [Mr. James H. Hill.] 922 SPECIAL COMMirTEK-C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Is there somebody from British Columbia connected with the Military Hos- pitals Commission? — A. No. Q. What do you say in regard to the accommodation for returned men ? Is there sufficient?— A. I am not thoroughly familiar with the details of their accommodation. There were some out-patients when I left, but I understood there would be none very shortly. They are taking over a place at Qualicum, up on the island. By the Chairman: Q. Is that the big hotel there?— A. Yes. Q. You do not know anything of the work of the Hospitals Commission and of the extent of it?— A. Not in detail. Ql Are there any complaints out there from the returned soldiers?— A. No, practically none. We had our share of complaints about the delay in receipt of pensions and so on. _ Q. But I am speaking as to treatment, medical and otherwise, accommodation and that sort of thing? — A. No. Q. Have you heard it said that there were too many out-patients and not sufficient accommodation to take in-patients? — A. No. Q. Do you find people co-ordinating with you in the way of employment, giving employment to returned soldiers? — A. Yes. Q. Do you find the manufacturers there and the wholesale men and those people co-ordinating with you in giving these returned soldiers employment? — A. So far it has been very satisfactory. Q. You would not undertake to say in your position that unless some other scheme were fiormulated if there was a sudden influx of soldiers, there would be very much less possibility of getting them positions or employment? — A. I do not quite get that. Q. If there were a sudden influx of three or four hundred soldiers, unless there was some land scheme, you could not give that many men employment in British Columbia?— A. It might be a difficult matter. Q. It would take a long time? — A. It might. I think it would. Q. Therefore in your opinion is it necessary that some scheme should be formu- lated for the returned soldiers? — A. Other than land settlement? Q. Yes?— A. Absolutely. Q. What kind of scheme? — A. Well, we fully recognize that land settlement, or the development of agriculture alone, will not provide a complete solution of our after-the-war problem, and in my opinion that refers to the whole country. The land settlement is an essential feature, but it will not provide a complete solution of our difficulties. Q. Have you any other solution to suggest to the Committee? — A. I think the whole matter of the establishment of industries, the assistance of industries, ought to be looked into, and ought to be dealt with. The matter should be taken up. Q. Do you agree with the last witness, or has it been discussed there that Gov- ernment supplies should be manufactured by soldiers in Government factories? — A. I have never gone into that particular detail, and I do not know — I do not think I am in a position to express an opinion that would be of value on that particular point, but I think that the whole matter of the establishment of industries should be taken up by the country as a whole. Q. When you say the matter of the development of industry should be taken up by the country, just what do you mean — in the way of the State employing these men in industries?— A. The establishment or development of the industries of the country should be dealt with as a whole in order that we may get at some plan which will lead to the provision of employment for the returned men. Q. By whom, by the State ?-^A. Well, that is a matter for discussion. [Mr. James H. Hill.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 923 Q. You have no settled opinion upon it? — A. Except this, that I think it is an Imperial question. It is a question which should be dealt with by the Dominion and if necessary by the Imperial Government; it is a matter which belongs to both. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. The Victoria Board of Trade has sent down a resolution. Would you like to have it incorporated in the proceedings? — A. I did not see it. Q. You cannot then speak on behalf of the Board of Trade? — A. No. I do not know the nature of the resolution. ]\rr. ^fiDDLEBRO: Perhaps it would be as well to put it on record. Documents filed as follows: — Victoria, B.C., February 24, 1917. Chairman, Committee re Care of Returned Soldiers, Ottawa, Ont. Dear Sir, — This Board of Trade has given much attention to questions arising from the war and the restoration of peace conditions when it terminates The Board's views, as expressed in the latest discussions, have been set out in the form of a resolution, and I am instructed to transmit the accompanying copy and to ask that it may receive your favourable consideration. Yours faithfully, F. ELWORTHY, Secretary. Copy of a Bcsolution Passed hy the Council of the Victoria, British Columbia, Board of Trade on Thursday, 15th February, 1917. " Whereas the Dominion Government, at great expense of time and money, have trained and are training for military services all the man power of Canada volunteering for overseas service in the maintenance of the highest tradition? of the British Empire. " Whereas these volunteer soldiers, the noblest of our manhood, on the various battle fronts, have proved themselves worthy of our great expectations in efficiency and valour. " Whereas many months and in some cases years of this National Servico have necessarily changed the whole current of their lives, it follows that variable periods of time will be required to restore these volunteers to a stata of effectiveness such as will enable them to follow their pre-war occupations. " Whereas such preparation for a return to civilian life of these volunteer soldiers is the sole duty of the Canadian Government and requires immediatt attention; Therefore, be it resolved: — 1. That no soldier should be discharged until he is physically fit and a position has been found for him, except by request, with proof of ability t to the printing thereof. Adopted on motion of Mr. Pardee. The committee then proceeded to consider what further evidence could be secured. The clerk of the committee was instructed thereupon to communicate with Major J. L. Todd, Mr. S. A. Armstrong, and Mr. E. H. Scammel and have them iippear before the committee to give evidence on Friday, April 27. The chairman proposed that a sub-committee consisting of Messrs. Middlebro, Murphy, and Pai'dee confer and report regarding further witnesses to be examined for evidence. In connection therewith the following names were to be considered : Mr. J. 8. Dennis, :Mr. W. B. S. Cook, Montreal; :Mr. Clyde Leavitt, of the Conserva- tion Commission; Mr. R. H. Campbell, director of forestry; and ^Messrs. W. F. Moore and M. K. Nolan respecting model houses. The committee then adjourned until Friday, April 27, at 10 o'clock a.m. HERBERT B. AMES. V. CLOUTHIER, Chairman. ClerJc of the Committee. 28277—00.^ 948 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS P.C. 1091. COPY OF ORDER IN COUNCIL. The Committee of the Privy Council, on the recommendation of the Minister of Militia and Defence, April 18, 1917, advise that every person who has served, is now serving, or may in the future serve as an officer, nursing sister, warrant officer, non-commissioned officer or man in the Canadian Expeditionary Force, and w?i,o has been or may hereafter he honourably retired or discharged from such ser- vice, after six months' continuous service during the present war, be continued on the pay and allowances of the rank held at the date of retirement or discharge, for a period of three months if the said service or any portion thereof has been per- formed overseas. OFFICE OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND PRESIDENT OF TSE COUNCIL, ONTARIO. Toronto, April 20, 191-7. Dear Sir: Your letter of the 17th instant, addressed to the Honourable Mr. Ferguson, Minister of Lands, Forests and Mines, has, in the absence of that Minister, been transferred to me for attention. The statement read by the chairman to Mr. Ferguson appearing on page 710 of No. 8 Proceedings, is taken from a memorandum adopted a-t an interprovincial conference held in Ottawa in October, 1915, regarding the problem of taking care of and providing employment for members of the Canadian Expeditionary Forces, who return to Canada during the period of the war. The memorandum in question was agreed to by the representatives of the several provinces in attendance at the conference and was agreed to by me personally on behalf of the province of Ontario. The memorandum contained a provision that in case, vipon consideration, the Govern- ment of any province deemed it advisable to alter or amend any of the suggestions, or make further suggestions, it should immediately forward notice thereof to the Pro- vincial Secretary of each of the other provinces of Canada with a view to having the same approved by the governments of such other provinces. No such notice was for- warded by my Government nor did this Government receive and such notice from any government of the other provinces, and so I have assumed and still assume that the memorandum referred to was adopted by the governments of all the different provinces of the Dominion and that the same is binding upon this Government in common with the other provincial governments. In furtherance of the memorandum referred to, a central Provincial Committee was at once appointed by this Government, called the Soldiers' Aid Commission, and the appointment and powers of this Commission were ratified by the Act of the Legislature at the following Session, — see Chapter 3, 6 George V, and this Govern- ment has, so far as I am aware, through said Commission, carried out to the full every undertaking and obligation resting upon it under said memorandum. I would beg, however, to call attention to the fact that the memorandum referred to sets out clearly that it only attempted to deal with the problems which were then pressing and that there were two other problems demanding attention, — the first, relating to a practical method of placing soldiers on the land, and it was suggested that this should be made the subject of special inquiry to be instituted by the Federal authorities; the other, relating to the finding of employment for the large number of soldiers that it was then expected would within a short space of time return to (Canada upon the conclusion of the war. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 949 I think it was clearly understood by all parties that the arrangement set forth in the memorandum referred to was only temporary, and intended to meet the con- ditions then existing, and was not intended as a solution of the returned soldier problem, or to finally settle the duties and liabilities of the Federal and Provincial Grovernments, particularly with relation to conditions that might arise after the war. In order that there may be no room for misunderstanding, it is perhaps proper that I should point out that at the conference referred to the representatives of the provinces took the position that the problem of the returned soldier was a national one, and that all obligations and responsibilities in connection therewith rested upon the Dominion Government, and, as I understood it, the Dominion Government recognized and admitted that such was the case. Anything undertaken by the Pro- vincial Governments under the memorandum in question was voluntary, and with the object of assisting and co-operating with the Dominion Government in the pressing situation that had then arisen. Yours ti"uly, (Sgd.) W. H. HEARST. V. CLOUTHIER, Esq., Clerk of Returned Soldiers' Committee. Ottawa. Ont. Iii:ClJI'T10X, TREATMENT AX D RE-EDUCAriON 951 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. House of Commons, Room ;'.01, April 27. 1!)17. The Committee met at 10.10 o'clock a.m., the chairman, Sir Herbert Ames, pre- siding. All nine members of the Committee were present. The examination of Mr. E. H. Scammell, Secretary, ^Military Hospitals Commis- sion, resumed. By the Chairman : Q. You have followed the proceeding-s of this Committee pretty closely, and you also have a fair idea of the evidence which has been given. Events have moved since thifj Committee was appointed, and our first session began, consequently you may have some new information to give regarding the Hospitals Commission, and may also have some explanations to present wdth resi)eet to the evidence already heard. I think, therefore, it would be better for you to proceed in your own way, the Commit- tee reserving the right to interrupt you from time to time and to ask such questions as may suggest themselves. — A. When I was on the stand last, Sir Herbert. I exi>lained the accommodation .which w^as available for convalescent treatment, and was about to deal with the tubercular situation. That matter was reserved until I should be heard by the Committee again. However, before going on to that I should like to say that the statement I made regarding accommodation in Halifax, that the Com- miJBsion had taken over part of Dalhousie College and was about to erect a hospital in the grotftids of that institution, requires to be amended, the Commission having taken over two other properties in Halifax in lieu of carrying out the original propo- sition. As Mr. Armstrong is to be on the stand, I should like, if I may, to leave to him the explanations regarding the new properties we have taken over since I was on the stand before, and merely now to say, that the situation in Nova Scotia is well looked after, and in the course of a very short time we shall have beds to spare in that province, also that we are opening a number of other institutions in some of the other provinces which will very shortly give us a considerable margin. Q. Do you wish to give us an enumeration of those more recent operations now, or will that be set forth in your evidence later? — A. I should like you to take that information from Mr. Armstrong, if you will. Q. Very well. — A. Now, with regard to the tubercular situation : the Commission has taken over some institutions entirely. It has also arranged with existing sanatoria to build additions, utilizing the administrative buildings, the commissariat equip- ment, and so forth, for the benefit of these extra pavilions. At Ste. Agathe the Com- mission has taken over a summer hotel, the property of Mr. Lome McGibbon. This has been in operation since January, 1916, and there is accommodation there now, with the additions which have been made, for TO patients. That institution is usually kept fairly filled. At Ste. Agathe also there is the Laurentian Sanatorium, where treatment is given to from 40 to 50 patients, so that we have aecoinmodatittu at that point for about 115. We also have another sanatorium in that district at Lake Edward. Then we have taJeople? — A. Would you like me to tell you the story of that arrangement, sir? Q. Inasmuch as they are anxious to put on record their side of it, it might be as well if you would. — A. Subject to correction in matters of detail, when I have the file before me, this was the arrangement : The owners of the Minnewaska Sanatorium approached the Commission, asking that patients might be sent there in view of the fact that some were going to the Free Sanatorium at Muskoka. Different representa- tives of the Commission saw the building in question and interviewed the manage- ment. The management undertook, if patients were sent there, considerably to enlarge and improve the premises and to provide, if necessary, for .'^(X) patients without any capital cost to the Commission. A number of men were sent there, and the same rate was paid as was being paid to the Muskoka Free. Complaints began to come in that the food was not good, that the sanitation was not good, and the matter was investigated by Col. Marlow, by Major Munn, by Senator McLennan and by others rerpresenting the Commission. The situation was pointed out to the management, and a promise was made that the defects would be remedied. We waited for a time, we sent our own medical officer there, we sent an assistant, we provided certain equipment, in fact in some cases, we bought supplies" because we found that the men were not being properly treated. Q. Properly fed? — A. And properly fed. By Mr. Pardee: Q. You say the men were not properly treated and were not properly fed? — A. They were not properly treated and not properly fed, I include both. No agreement was entered into with these people, several times they requested a definite agreement, but the Commission refused until these difficulties, these defects were removed. Un- fortunately at that time the camps began to unload on us a great many tubercular patients, of whom we had no knowledge; these filled up all the available accommoda- tion, and it was impossible therefore immediately to evacuate Minnewaska. The management knew what we were considering, they knew that unle.ss definite improve- ment were made, we should withdraw our men, and they wrote us stating they would like a decision on this matter as they had an opportunity of turning the institution over for the use of some friendly society, and requesting that we make haste regarding it. We did ; and after taking over the institution at Freeport, and arranging for fur- ther accommodation at Hamilton, we removed the patients from ^finncwaska. But as we had removed them without definite notice we paid the management, I believe it was, two weeks extra to cover any immediate loss they might have been put to. By the Chairman: Q. Two weeks on each patient? — A. On each patient we removed. I have no hesitation in saying that the treatment given by the Commission to the institution at Minnewaska was a most generous one, and I should welcome on behalf of the Com- mission, any investigation that you may care to make and to submit the whole corres- pondence and nil the details. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] 956 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. What rate were you paying that institution for each patient? — A. At the commencement we paid $7 per week, it being understood that the Ontario Government would pay an extra $3 per week as was the case in respect of other institutions. They did not do so, and we therefore raised our rate to $10 per week. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. Then you think Col. Marlow's criticism with regard to that institution was justifiable? — A. I certainly do think so. Q. Did the Commission have to assume any obligations on behalf of that Insti- tution? — A. Not exactly, but we had to help some of the creditors by holding back payments due until the creditors could take necessary proceedings. Q. You mean the Institution got into debt, but the Commission was not called upon to meet any obligations in that respect? — A. No, we did not pay anything directly but, knowing that proceedings were being taken by some of those who had supplied the institution with meat and other articles, it took us a little longer than is usually the case in putting their accounts through. The Frank Sanatorium in Alberta was taken over by the Commission in October, 1916. By Mr. Boss: Q. Why do you skip the Byron Institution? — A.. I am dealing first with all those that are operated entirely by the Commission. This Sanatorium was a summer hotel or health resort, and it has been rented by the Commission, it is capable of taking 64 patients and is now full. By the Chairman: Q. Who supplies the medical staff? — A. The Commission has supplied the staff. Q. Does the Commission or the Army Medical Corps supply the staff? — A. It will be the Army Medical Corps now, they are Army Medical Corps men, but we have a tuberculosis expert engaged. B^ Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. Why do you say "now"? — A. Because of the recent arrangement with regard to the Army Medical Corps made by the Commission. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. How has that conflict between the two bodies been done away with? — A. I think that has been explained in previous evidence ; the Commission is now using the Army Medical Corps men for its medical service. The Commission has recently taken over another hotel in the West, the property of the Canadian Pacific Railway, on the Kootenay lakes. By Mr. Bennett: Q. At Balfour? — A, Yes, at Balfour. That at present has room for 70 beds and it is intended to undertake considerable building- operations there and make it the 'central sanatorium for Alberta and British Columbia. That would take care of all our patients there. Q. All tuberculosis patiente? — A. Yes, sir. Now in addition to these institutions which are operated by the Commission, the Commission has arranged with existing sanatoria to enlarge their equipment and plant, the Commission paying a portion of the cost, sometimes one-half, and sometimes rather less than one-half. That applies to the Lake Edward Sanatorium outside of Quebec, it applies to the Iventville Sana- torium, to which I made reference just now and to the Mountain Sanatorium at Hamilton where we shall have room for a little over 170 patients. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 957 By Mr. Pardee: Q. Where is that sanatorium? — A. On the mountain, outside of Hamilton, it is one of the best sanatoria in the country. By Hon. Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Who owns it? — A. The Hamilton Health Association. Q. Is that a private corporation? — A. It is a private corporation, but it is not a profit-earning corporation." Q. By whom is it controlled? — A. By a committee in Hamilton which works closely with the City Council, and the Board of Health. Q. It is not a profit-earning institution? — A. Not at all. At the Byron Sana- torium, or the Queen Alexandra Sanatorium, outside of London, we have a similar arrangement. Q. Who controls that? — A. The London Health Association, of which Sir Adam Beck is the chairman. Q. Is it not owned by the Ontario Government? — A. No. Q. Is it a profit-earning institution? — A. No. Q. It is purely philanthropic? — A. Absolutely. Q. And any contributions made in the shape of equipment to that institution by private parties and associations like the local Ked Cross workers will become the property of that association? — A. That is so. That association, of course, carries on, as nearly all these associations do, at a loss for most of their patients, and they require voluntary contributions to help them out. There we shall have room for 110, that is when the additions are completed. Q. What rate do you pay?— A. $1.50 a day. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. How many can you accommodate there now? — A. Forty-eight. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. What are you contributing ?— A. To Byron, $26,000. Q. In the form of permanent erection? — A. Yes, $25,000 for the new buildings that they are putting up, and $1,000 for alterations in their present building. Q. Are you supervising that expenditure, or handing them over the money? — A. We shall hand them over the money. Q. Isn't that rather improvident? — A. No, because they are expending a very great deal more than that. They are spending, I am informed, $125,000. Q. What check have you on the proper expenditure of that money? — A. The accounts must be submitted here; the building is inspected from time to time by one of our officers; and our contribution is only a small proportion of the total. By 31 r. Pardee : Q. How much is it? — A. $25,000 toward the new buildings. The Ontario Govern- ment are contributing a like amount, the City Council of London a like amount, and the Hamilton Health Association and the Red Cross Society are making up the balance. Q. What is the total expenditure? — A. Sir Adam Beck tells me $125,000. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Under whose control are the tuberculous soldier patients? — A. The Byron Sanatorium will control the patients except tha we supply a disciplinary officer there. Q. The medical treatment will be administered entirely by the officers of the sanatorium? — A. Exactly so. By Mr. Sutherland : Q. Will civilian patients be admitted? — A. Oh, yes. The soldiers, however, will be in pavilions by themselves. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] 958 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Pardee: Q. The Commission will have the first call for accommodation? — A. Up to 110 beds. The Xinette Sanatorium in Manitoba is the next that we have an arrangement of that kind with. We have room there at present for 30 patients; that is being increased to 100. The Commission is paying half the cost of the additional pavilion necessary to bring the accommodation up to 100. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. How much will that probably be? — A. The Commission's cost will be about $21,000. By Hon. Mr. Mar oil: Q. Is Ninette Sanatorium near a city? — A. It is a few miles out of Brandon. Q. It is not as lonesome as Ste. Agathe? — A. Quite, I should think. Q, You have no complaint about the patients finding it awkward to live there? — A. No, they have not reached here. Q. Ste. Agathe is a charming place because lots of people live there in the summer- time? — A. I know that. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. Is the disciplinary officer in Byron Sanatorium a doctor or a soldier? — A. He is not a doctor, sir. Q. He is a soldier? — A. Yes. Q. Who is he? — A. I cannot tell you. By the Chairman: Q. You can get his name? — A. I can get his name if you wish. At Tranquille Sanatorium in British Columbia, near Kamloops, we have arrangements to send 33' men. The place is usually full. Q. They built a special building for you? — A. They did, sir. It was put up by the Government of British Columbia. Q. How much did you contribute? — A. Not anything, simply $3,500 towards the furnishing. There is a small private sanatorium at Kamloops where we have 10 men. We have also 30 men at the Muskoka Free Sanatorium. We have a few men also at a civic sanatorium in Calgary, usually about 20. As soon as Balfour is completed, how- ever, we may remove all to Balfour. Q. Will Balfour serve for Southern Alberta and Southern British Columbia entirely? — A. Yes. Q. And you will dispense with Frank ? — A. Not at present. We may convert Frank into a sanatorium for rheumatics afterwards. There is mineral water there, and it is admirably adapted for that. Q. Do you keep tubercular convalescents and advanced cases in the same build- ings? — A. We have had to do so. Q. You do not diilerentiate as to incipient and advanced? — A. No. The ad- vanced cases are sent as near to the man's own home as possible. Q. What is the total accommodation for tubercular patients at present? — A. At the present moment we have 674 beds. Q. How many patients have you? — A, We have 602 patients in those beds. By Mr. Pardee: Q. You have 602 patients? — A. We have seventy-two vacant beds at present. Q. How many patients would you evacuate each month? — A. Very few. Q. Really you are up to your limit for tuberculous cases? — A. Yes, we have a number of men who are not in yet. When our present building operations are com- pleted about the middle of the summer we shall have between eleven and twelve hundred beds. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] KECEI'TIOS, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 959 By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. You expect that these beds will all be occupied? — A. Not immediately, sir. Q. But during the summertime? (No answer.) By Mi'. Pardee: Q. When do you expect to have these finished? — A. Most of them will be finished by the first of June. The work has been going on for some months. Q. By that time you will be able to accommodate 1,100 tuberculous cases? — A. Very nearly that. By the middle of August we shall be able to accommodate fully the 1,200. Q. You are making accommodation for 340 more than you have at the present time? — A. At the present time. Q. Do you consider that sufficient? — A. It is very difficult to say. Q. What is your idea? — A. I think we shall have to build or arrange for a large ccJitral sanitarium. Q. With how many beds? — A. Probably four or five hundred beds. Q. Do you mean in addition to what you have now? — A. Yes. Q. When could you have that ready? — A. Oh, next winter, perhaps. Q. Don't you think the need will arise before that?-^A. No, because we can rilways take care in the summer of many tubercular patients in tents. Q. So you consider your tubercular accommodation sufficient at the present time? — A. It is met for some months to come. Q. Only for "months"? — A. That is all, sir. Q. Do you consider it absolutely necessary between now and the first of next December that very much more accommodation should be provided for tubercular patients? — A. Personally, I think so. Q. To the extent of how many beds? — A. I should like to arrange for a sani- tarium for 500 beds. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. In what province? — A. In Ontario; it is in Ontario that we have most of our patients. But our difficulty with the tubercular problem has always been this: the man wants to get as near to his home as possible, and it is very difficult to hold him in another province. There is one institution that I omitted : we have no sanitarium in Saskatchewan, and recently, as Mr. Armstrong will be able to tell you, he has arranged for taking over a school at Kegina which will accommodate about seventy tubercular patients. That will also be ready about the first of June. By Mr. Pardee: Q. That is in addition to what you have given us? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. Of the 600 patients, have you any idea how many are camp cases, that is have never gone overseas? — A, 227, sir. Q. The flow of camp cases has practically ceased, has it not ? — A. It is a good deal less than it was. Q. Do you anticipate, judging from present recruiting, having tuany more tubercular camp cases? — A. I am unable to answer that question. It depends entirely upon the rigidity of the medical examination. Q. The first medical examination? — A. Yes. Q. You say the number of camp cases that you may expect to have turned over to you in the coming summer will depend entirely on the rigidity of the primary medical examination by which men enter the force? — A. Exactly. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] 960 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Pardee: Q. You have now 602 tubercular cases? — ^A. In sanatoria. Q. And of those, 227 cases are what you call camp cases that have never been over- seas? — A. Yes, sir. At one time it was about 60 per cent. Q. Of the total? — A. Yes. That is why we have had any congestion. The Commission asked the overseas authorities to state how many approximately would be returned during a given period. The information was furnished. By the Chairman: Q. And arrangements made accordingly? — A. Arrangements were made for 100 per cent more than the number given, but we were swamped by these camp cases. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Do you keep any track of how long these men have been in camp before being turned over to you as tubercular cases? — A. They vary considerably. Q. Are there many only a month? — A. There have been a few. Q. What would be the average? — A. Four or five months. Q. Do you know whether those that are four or five months in camp are incipient or advanced? — A. The majority are incipient, sir, a few advanced. Q. A few are advanced? — A. Yes. We have to-day out of the 602 cases in the sanatoria, 77 advanced cases of which a certain proportion — I cannot give you the exact figure, though I can ascertain it — are camp cases. Q. Have you only 77 cases out of 602 that are advanced? — A. That we know are permanent cases. By the Chairman: Q. That can never get well?— A. Men who will die. Q. Have you, as yet, noticed any more strict examination for enlistment in con- nection with men suffering from tuberculosis? Has it had any effect in the way of causing a diminution of men coming to you who are camp cases? — A. Yes, it has, because the proportion to-day is not as large as the proportion a year or nine months ago. By Hon. Mr. Mar oil: Q. Is the standard of medical examination the same? — A. That is outside of my province. Q. How many returned soldiers in any sanatoria are suffering from tuberculosis? — A. Some figures were given to us recently by the Director-General of Medical Services, approximating about 165, but we have reason to believe that these figures are below the mark. m By the Chairman: Q. Of those 165, Mr. Scammell, I suppose a certain percentage have been in hospital and declined to stay there longer ? — A. No, that does not include those. Those men are discharged. But of the number we have at present in the sanatoria, there are a few cases of men who have come back to us and said: "' Will you take us on again — we made a mistake." Q. Have you any idea how manj' men refused to continue their treatment in your sanatoria contrary to the advice of your medical authorities? — A. Not a very large proportion, sir, I could not give you any figures. By Mr. Pardee: Q. On what date were these 602 patients in the hospital? — A. On the loth April, sir. Q. Of this year?— A. Yes. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] KECJU'TlOy, TliEATilEXT AND RE-EDUCATION 961 By the Chairman: Q. What is the next subject, Mr. Scammell? — A. Do you wish to deal at all with the number of patients that we have? The Chairman : We would like to have the most recent return regarding: con- valescents. By Mr. Pardee: Q. All patients. — A. Up to the l"»tli April we had of convalescents 2,034 overseas patients, and 353 camp patients. We had 1,842- overseas patients .as out patients and 93 camp jjatieuts as out patients. In the hospitals for the insane we had 98 overseas patients and 25 camp patients, and 11 out patients. In other institutions, we had 176 overseas and 78 camp cases, with 345 reckoned as out patients. Questions have been asked during the evidence which has been given regarding the procedure when a man returns from overseas. I should like to put in the evidence a copy of the form used. By Mr. Middle}) ro : Q. You have about 5,000 patients then, acco'rding to the figures you have given, in and out door i>atients ? — A. In and out door the total is 5,677. That, sir, is the form which is used in Quebec (producing form). By the Chairman: Q. That form had better be inserted in the evidence as filed by you as an exhibit showing the information secured at Quebec (see appendix) ? — A. That form is filled in partly from the record of the Board of Medical Officers and partly from (luestioning the men themselves. Its object is to have in a brief form sufficient infor- mation for the Military Hospitals Commission, and for others associated with the Commission, to deal with the returning men. Seven copies of this form are made and are distributed to those interested, including the provincial Commissions which deal with employment; and it has been found that this has met the case very fully. The classification is shown by the difl'erent colours of the form. Another subject which was raised in the evidence has been that of civilian clothing. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Before leaving the number of patients, can jou give an idea of the number of men returned from overseas who have been treated by you and sent home as cured, or needing no further treatment ? You still have 5,000 under treatment, but how many have left you? — A. The number of men of whom the Commission has records up to the end of March, 1917, is 13,826. Q. That is practically every returned soldier who came back to Canada? — A. No, that is the number of whom the Commission has records. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. There must be more than that. I have a return here made up to the same date -bowing that 18,376 men have returned from oversea. This return is furnished by F'rank Beard of the Record Office of the Department of Militia and Defence to the Secretary of the Committee. — A. I question these figures. Q. Wliat are your figures? — A. 13,826 have passed through the hands of the Com- mission. In addition to that 550 returned through Halifax before the Commission took on. Q. What date is your statement?— A. March 31. 1917. Q. This return is the same date too. — A. About 400 have come back, besides the 550 of whom the C^ommission have no record. The Chairman : Your return, Mr, Ross, will include all rejects ? Mr. Ross (^Middlesex) : No, it says: "Statement of Troops returned to Canada to March 31. 1917, classified in Military Districts." [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] 28277—61 962 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS The Chairman: That includes misfits. Witness: This number has been obtained by going over the books showing the men that have passed through our hands. The Chairman : You have a record of 13,800. Hon. Mr. Marcil: Are these all enlisted men? — A. All enlisted men who have returned from overseas, but not officers or men returned as escorts. The Chairman: Will you file that statement for the record? (Table III filed as follows) :— Table III.— DISABILITIES NECESSITATING KETURN TO CANADA. 1915 1916 1917 Totals. Over Age 3 7 998 73 11 1,447 70 783 170 956 378 114 3,934 294 500 403 1,560 219 55 1,685 166 1,286 580 Wounds 3,514 Tuberculosis ... 670 180 Other Causes 7,066 530 2,609 6,629 4,588 13,826 N.B. — It may be noted that nine blind men have returned and 177 men who have suffered major amputation. These are included under wounds in above Table. The Chairman : I think it would be well to incorporate in the evidence the state- ment which Mr. Ross has quoted, just after Mr. Scammel's evidence regarding tuberculosis. STATEMENT OF TROOPS RETURNED TO CANADA TO MARCH 31, 1917. Classified in Military Districts. Year. 1 2 3 4 5 6 10 11 12 13 Not Stated. Total. 1915 3,587 4,575 3,048 3,587 1916 476 288 1,124 440 413 174 579 129 242 57 531 173 671 213 514 222 178 92 442 208 9,745 1917 5,044 764 1,564 687 708 299 704 884 736 270 650 11,210 18,376 The above is the only classification available 14 4/17 FRANK BEARD, He Record Office. FMr T^ n Spnr RECEPTION', TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 963 By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. How much pension does a man suffering from tuberculosis receive? — A. According to his disablement. Q. If he is going to die from tuberculosis, what does he get? — A. He would receive a total disability pension in that case. The next subject I would suggest referring to is that of civilian clothing, as' that matter was taken up by some of those who have given evidence. Some criticism was launched regarding the quality of the clothing which was distributed at Quebec and other depots. $13 is allowed by regulations for the clothing issued at the Discharge Depot at Quebec. Q. At all seasons? — A. No, sir, in summer it is $8 because no overcoat is then provided; in the winter it is $13 which includes a suit and overcoat and a cap and I may be permitted to say that the most wonderful .value has been given for that $13. The Commission has laid the matter before the Department of Militia aond Defence, by whom the purchases are made, requesting a reconsideration of the situation in view of the fact that the cost of clothing has advanced considerably since the commencement of the war. That matter is now being gone into very closely by the department and the War Turchasing Commission, and I think that no criticism along that line in the future will have to be made. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. What is the practice, do the men take the clothing issued by the department, or do they avail themselves of the option of taking the money? — A. They usually take the clothing, a few take the money, but, in my opinion the option should be abolished and the clothing should be issued in all cases. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Are the suits issued easily recognized on the street? — A. No, they are not,, they are of all kinds, a very great variety of cloth is used. Q- Are they made under contract? — A. At present they are being bought im Quebec by arrangement. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. Complaint has been made that the clothing is altogether too cheap and that it is not of a quality to satisfy every man? — A. What can you expect for the money, sir? Q. What is the reason the men are not given better suits, is it economy or what? — A. That was the rate laid down in the beginning, except in the western provinces where, when a man is discharged $16.50 is allowed for a suit, but in the East the amount allowed is $13. By Mr. Pardee : Q. IIow much better than $13 ought they to go in your opinion? — A. I think that through the War Purchasing Commission they probably would be able to get a very good suit and overcoat for $17- Q. Why should there not be a store established in Quebec where the depart- menll could purchase these suits wholesale and distribute them to the returned soldiers as required? — A. In my judgment, tlie department should contract with a mill for the output of the cloth, and they should contract with a maniifacturer to make up the suits, and there should be stores at the headquarters of each Military District. Q. That would be far better than to have the men go out and buy them?' —A. Far better. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] 28277— 6U 964 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Sutherland: Q. You say you object to the option of taking the money instead of the clothing? —A. Yes- Q. Wliy. Even at $17 the suit might not be of as good quality as a great many men might require, and consequently it might be useless to them- — A. If the suits were made of the quality of cloth of which I saw samples a short time ago in the office of the War Purchasing Commission, I should be very glad to have one myself. Q. But these suits, if you get them, would be ready made and a good many men would be unable to get a good fit, and therefore they would not care to have them? — A. There is a certain degree of truth in that, but if the man takes the money and goes away and spends iti and then tells people "I have no civilian clothes"; criticism is launched against the Governemnt for not providing him with them. That is the reason why I would insist upon every man taking a suit of clothes when he is discharged. By the Chairman: Q. Wlrat is the military regulation about wearing military clothes after a man is discharged? — A. He cannot wear his uniform without the authority of the Command- ing Officer of the District; if he does so without that authority, he is liable to have the uniform confiscated and to be arrested. The next criticism is with reference to the delay in sending the last pay certi- ficates from the office of the Paymaster General to the various units of the Military Hospitals Commission Command, and the consequent delay in paying the men. There is not the delay which, from some of the evidence which has been given there would appear to be in the sending of the last pay certificates to the various units, and the placing of the returned soldiers on pay. The procedure is this : When the ship comes in bringing the men with their papers, those papers are gone through by the accounting staff at the discharge depot. When the men leave for their destination each man is furnished with, say, $10 for immediate spending money and a cheque for $50, $75, and sometimes $100, according to the amount due to the man on the documents arriving from England is mailed to the Paymaster in the district in which he is going, in order that it may be forwarded to his address; therefore when he arrives home he has more money, than his pay would be for the period between the date of leaving the discharge depot and of receiving his first pay cheque from the Unit Paymaster. The papers then come to Ottawa, they are dealt with by the Paymaster General's Branch of the Department of Militia and Defence, and I am sure there is no unnecessary delay in handling those documents here. They have to be compared with the Assigned Pay, with the Separation Allowance accounts, and usually within ten days those statements are made up and forwarded to the Paymaster of the Command, so that he can put the man on his pay-roll. But what really happens is that when a man get his cheque for $50 or $75, as the case may be, he likes to spend a little money immediately on his arrival home. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. He meets a lot of friends? — A. Exactly, sir. And he forgets that it is bound to take a little time for his documents to be registered and his accounts checked, and to be placed on the pay-roll in the District to which he is going. But tliere is no undue delay. I was talking this week with the paymaster of one of our units. I asked him what was the average time that it takes after a man arrives in Quebec before he gets him on the pay-roll. He said : '' Three weeks." If it can be done in less than a month that is pretty quick work. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] RECEPTION, IKEATilENT AND RE-EDUCATION 965 By the Chairman: Q. How much is he given to tide him over the three weeks? — A. From $50 up- wards. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Never less than $50? — A. If he has a debit balance or a very small credit bal- ance, he may get less. Q. He gets some advance? — A. There are very few cases where a man does not get an advance. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. He gets $10 anyway at the discharge depot? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. How does a man get a debit balance? — A. I do not know exactly. But there are various ways by which it is done overseas. Sometimes the man may not have his pay book by him, and he goes to a pay officer with a hard luck story, and the pay- master makes him an advance, to be entered in his pay book later. It is not a very common occurrence. Sometimes separation allowance or assigned pay has been paid twice and then it has to be deducted. Q. By error in the department? — A. By error in the department, but, as a rule, the man himself knows it. Q. Where a woman has received through error separation allowance, and, in good faith, has spent it, not understanding all the military regulations, does it not seem a hardship to take from the returned soldier the amount of the overdraft which is due entirely to an error on the part of the paymaster? — A, Possibly it is, sir, especially if the man himself knows nothing about it. I do not think there are very many cases where the man does not know. Q. There have been cases of very extreme hardship where men have been overpaid entirely through the error of the Paymasters' department, and then when called upon later to make up the amount, having spent what had been overpaid, have found it impossible to make up the amount? — A. There are cases of that character, but I think they are very rare. I should like to say in that connection, that the marvel is that there are not a very much larger number of these errors, when the multitude of accounts is taken into consideration and the quality of the staff which is available as clerks for the various branches of the work. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Does the Military Hospitals' Commission have to do with these payments? — A. Only if the man returns and is one of our patients, then we take him on our strength . By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. You have many cases reported to you where returned soldiers, after getting this payment of $10, instead of going to their homes or going to the points where they enlisted are sent back to other places. They ask to go, perhaps, to their original home or native places, and become stranded there? — A. Occasionally. There are not many cases of that kind. Q. In a case of that kind, would the second payment you spoke of, $50 or $75, follow the man there? — A. Yes, if he was discharged. It he was not discharged he would have to report to one of our hospitals, otherwise he would be a deserter. By Mr. Pardee: Q. In connection with this matter, INfr. Scammell, here is an item clipped from one of the Toronto papers, the Toronto Daily Star, in connection with ^frs. !Mary Ellen Harrison, in which she is asked to refund the sum of $27. The date of thi« man's discharge was dated back so that she is asked to refund it from tlie time that [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] 966 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS the discharge wus arbitrarily dated back by the department while this man was under the charge of the Hospitals' Commission. How do you explain that? — A. I am glad to say that that will be avoided in future, Q. What would be the explanation of such a case ever occurring? — A. A man would be before a medical board, and be recommended for discharge. His papers have to come to Ottawa, be dealt with by the D.G.M.S. and then passed to the Board of Pension Commissioners. It might take three weeks, a month, or three months before everything was gone through.' In the meantime the man's pay stops, and when he gets his discharge and his pension it is dated back to the date when he is recom- mended for pension. Now, that has been a very great hardship. Q. Then when it was dated back, if the dependent had got the money for separa- tion allowance or subsistence she was asked to refund it from the time that was dated back? — A. That has happened in several cases. Q. Is that done away with now? — A. Absolutely done away. Not only so, but whenever a case of that sort has come to the knowledge of the commission we have it up with the department and the Board of Pension Commissioners in order to get the claim wiped out. Q. In your judgment, it is not a fair thing to ask this woman, Mrs. Harrison, to refund that money? — A. Not in those circumstances. By the order-in-council which was recently passed, No. 508, dated February 24, no discharges are carried out until the Board of Pension Commissioners has notified the officer commanding the soldier that he is to have a pension or he is not to have a pension, and if he is to have a pen- sion that it will commence on a certain date. Then the discharge has to be carried out as on the day previous in order to meet that very condition. Q. Now, my information is that this case of Mrs. Harrison is still pending. Will you make a note of it and look into it? — A. I shall be glad to do so. By the Chairman: Q. Will you enter an abstract of that case in the minutes so that we can have the complaint and the answer? — A. I will, sir. Q. What is your next subject ? — A. The next thing I want to report is a new order- in-council in connection with vocational training. Q. Give us the gist of it and then file it. — A. When Mr. Kidner was here he explained the provision made by the Government through the Commission for main- taining men while undergoing re-education after discharge. There were several points in the order-in-coundil granting the authority which required emendation. These have now been made. For instance, it was found that the subsistence allowance of 60 cents per day granted to a man living at his own home while undergoing re- education, was insufficient. That has now been increased by an order-in-council passed on the 12th April to one dollar per day. Q. What is the number of the order-in-council? — A. No. 976. We had several cases of men with dependents, which dependents had not been in receipt of separation allowance and who were not entitled to it; but they were bona fide dependents, some- times sisters, sometimes other relatives. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Some members of the family? — A. Always members of the family. By the Chairman: Q. Dependent upon the soldier? — A. Yes. Therefore, we have had this clause added: A widowed mother or a mother who is not widowed if she be dependent entirely or partially on an unmarried son who is receiving vocational training, and if the son made an assignment of his pay to his mother or can prove to the satisfaction of the Military Hospitals Commission that he has regularly sent a portion of his pay to his mother; or a sister or other dependents, if the [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 967 soldier who is receiving vocational training made an assignment of his pay to her or to them or can prove to the satisfaction of the Military Hospitals Com- mission that he has regulaj-ly sent a portion of his pay to her or to them, the said mother, sister or other dependents, may be paid an amount equal to the assignment made or payments sent by the soldier, provided that such amount shall not exceed the amount which would be paid under the authority of this order-in-council to the wife of a married man without children. Now, that is I think, a very necessary extension. We had a number of cases of men who could not take re-education because they had dependents who were not entitled to be supported. Q. Not strictly entitled under the old regulation to be supported? — A. No, sir. Then the provisions of re-education have been extended to naval men. It is included in this clause: 12. The provision of this order-in-council shall apply to all members to His Majesty's Naval, Military and Auxiliary Services, who were bona fide resi- dents in Canada, at the outbreak of the war, who are unable to return to their previous occupations by reason of disability incurred on service in the present war. I should like to put that order-in-council in as an exhibit. Hon. Mr. MoCurdy: Has the order-in-council with regard to the payment of three months pay and allowances after discharge gone into the record? The Chairmak: Yes. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Have you received any complaints with r,egard to the discharge depot at Que- bec; that Quebec is a bad locality for a discharge depot and that the soldiers have been badly treated at Quebec and that it was desirable as a consequence that another loca- lity was selected? — A. No, sir. I have not seen any such complaints. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. "Where are the discharge depots located? — A. At Quebec, Halifax and St. John. The returned soldiers for the maritime provinces are discharged at St. John, and the others are entrained on arrival from overseas and are dealt with at Quebec. Very few discharges are being carried out at the discharge depots, the only men being discharged there now being those who have no disability incurred on service. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Supposing an Ontario man is discharged in Quebec, is he allowed to stay in the city of Quebec? — A. No, he is forwarded on to his destination. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Have you had any complaints about the men having difficulty in crossing over from Levis to Quebec to the discharge depot? — A. None at all. Q. Complaints about that have not reached you? — A. There was only one case in which a train arrived in the middle of the night, and the conditions were not very favourable for crossing; otherwise there has been no difficulty at all. By the Chairman: Q. What is the next matter you have to bring before the Committee? — A. Ques- tions have been asked regarding invalided officers. I simply wanted to explain that at present the invalid officer does not come under the Military Hospitals Commission ; he returns under a diflFerent arrangement, he does not pass through the discharge depot, but he is sent home Q. They are not included in the 13,800 you spoke of? — A. No, sir. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] 968 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By lion. Mr. Marcil: Q. Are any included in that number who had no service at all on the other side ? — A. The Commission does not deal with officers except when an officer requires treat- ment. In that case he is entitled to and receives treatment. It is quite possible that the Commission may open, in the near future, an officer's home, perhaps more than one, but up to tlie present the number requiring treatment has been so small that it would have been an unnecessary expense, but all the facilities at the disposal of the Commission are open to the officers. By the Chairman: Q. Does that mean that an officer, on pay and allowances after his return, unless discharged, has to provide for himself? — A. In some cases he has done so. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Have you a special ward in one of your hospitals for the officers? — A. We had, at one hospital at Quebec, which we have now closed, and all the time it was opened, we only had two officers in it, but neither of them has been overseas. I should like to mention an arrangement for officers which has been made, an arrangement of a very generous character, by Dr. and Mrs. Pilgrim, of Barbados. This gentleman and his wife have a large estate in Barbados, and they communicated with Sir George Foster some time ago, stating they would be prepared to receive wounded and disabled officers from overseas who had been to the front, as guests at their house. The Royal Mail Steam Packet Company also notified Sir George Foster that they would be pleased to carry any wounded returned officers who were capable of travelling without requiring special medical service, to the West Indies and back, free of charge. In accordance with that arrangement I suppose we must have sent a dozen officers to Barbados, the Royal Mail Steam Packet Co. taking them free, and Dr. and Mrs. Pilgrim looking after them when down there. Since then another gentleman at Barbados, the Reverend Dr. Harrison has opened his house to offi^cers, and two will be leaving by the next boat to stay with him. I thought I would like to put that fact on the record. The Chairman: That is an interesting statement in view of our taking care of the Jamaican negroes here. Witness: It certainly is. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. Do all the officers have the privilege of taking vocational training if they desire to do so ? — A. Certainly, but we have not yet had a case in which an officer has expressed a desire to do so. Q. None of the officers have availed themselves of that opportunity? — A. No, but it is open to officers. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Do you conclude from that fact that they have all returned to their original employment? — A. Mostly, or their education is such that they do not require to take special training along vocational lines. The Committee has had before it the secre- taries of the provincial associations and a great deal of information was obtained as to the work which is being done by those associations in the direction of finding em- ployment for returned soldiers. I should like to say that these commissions are working in the closest harmony and co-operation with the Military Hospitals Commission. We supply the secretary of each of these Commissioners with one of the forms made out at Quebec, giving particulars of each man returned. The commissioners have sub-com- mittees covering in some cases every town and village in the province, and notification is sent forward from Quebec to the Commission, when men are returned. Each man is given a card of introduction to the Secretary of the Commission and up to the present there has been little difficulty in finding employment for all who have returned and who are capable of taking work. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION %9 By the Chairman: Q. That card of introduction is given for the purpose of identification? — A. Yes, it does not mention the man's name in case he should lose the card, but it mentions the number of his report, so that it will be useless to any stranger who picks it up. Q. I think that the card runs something like this : " The bearer of this card is the person referred to in Report 22G1.". — A. Something like that, and it is addressed to the Secretary of the Provincial Commission of the province to which the man is going. Q. And usually when the soldier arrives at the secretary's office and presents that card the report is there ahead of him? — A. Yes. Q. But the secretary asks the soldier certain questions? — A. Yes, and receives the man's answers. Q. Which tallies with the statements contained in the report, and in that way the secretary is able to assure himself that the right man is attached to the right report? — A. Certainly. Then, if the man goes to a convalescent home and stays there for one, two, three, six, or nine months, about two weeks before the time set for leaving the home a special notice is sent to the secretary of the Provincial Com- mission informing him that John Smith will leave the institution on or about a certain date, that he has been attending certain classes, and that he desires work along certain lines. That information is in the hands of the secretary of the Pro- vincial Commission before the man leaves the institution, so that the secretary is able to look around and see what work can be found for him, and, as I said just now, there has been very little difficulty up to the present in finding work. Q. Will the provision of that order in council for three months' pay after discharge, in your judgment, bridge over the hiatus that has caused criticism? — A. That is very difficult to say. It depends entirely upon the man himself. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Is this amount payable in a lump sum, or is it payable by the month? — A. That matter has not yet been decided by the Militia Department. Q. Would you advise that it be paid in a lump sum? — A. No, sir, I should not. Q. Would you have him wait for a month for his first payment? The Ch.\irmax : On the day of his discharge the man gets his pay, whatever is coming to him, up to that date, and by the end of the month he is entitled to another thirty days' pay. The Witness: If I might make a suggestion in connection with that order in council, I should like to see the payment spread over six months, on a gradually reducing scale. By the Chairman: Q. Without increasing the total amount? — A. Without increasing the total amount, but on a gradually reducing scale, because when the man is discharged, if he is a re-education case, he is supported by the Military Hospitals Commission; if he is a pension case, he is granted a pension by the Board of Pension Gom- niissioners. and it is only the case of a man who is cured, and who is not in the receipt either of re-education or pension, who has no more money coming in; so that if this extra payment were spread over a number of months there would be a gradual reduction which would have the effect of compelling the man to look around and to obtain employment. If, however, the amount is paid in equal monthly instal- ments, there will come a time when the pay will suddenly stop, and he will be entirely without means ; I would rather see it stop by degrees. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] 970 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. How is the man going to get along on half pay for six months? — A. If he is not entitled to pension or re-education he is capable of working. Q. Are those in receipt of pension in the majority? — A. No, they are not in the majority at all. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. You are afraid the man will not start to look for work until his pay is stopped? —A. A great deal of the difficulty has been along that line. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. If the payments were made on a gradually reducing scale at a certain time he would find that he would have to look for work, but he would not be absolutely desti- tute? — A. That is the idea, he would not have enough to live on, but he would still have some money coming in whilst he was looking for work. By the CJiairmati: Q. I have made a rough estimate that this wotdd cost the Government $120 per man. You have to consider that he is entitled to 15 days pay on discharge anyway, so that it only means an elongation of 2 J months? — A. The pensioner does not get 15 days pay. Q. I understand that, but your idea is that the man should be paid say $20 one month, $15 the next, $10 another month, until the payments stopped altogether? — A. Exactly. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. And the gradually reduced amount would emphasize to the man the necessity for looking out for work? — A. It means some trouble to spread the payments over a longer period, but I believe it would be better for the man himself. The Chairman: Does the man get full pay and allowances for three months? — A. The order in council provides for full pay and allowances, Q. There is the field allowance 10 cents per day. Does he get that? — A. And the separation allowance. Q. That is $33 per month for pay and allowance? — A. And the separation allow- ance is $29 per month, or $53, that is for a married man, but taking the married and single men together it is an average of $40 per month. I should like to report that the Commission in dealing with the question of pub- licity has been at special pains in order to keep the public informed concerning the work that is being done. Bulletins are issued, copies of which have been submitted, to this committee, and from time to time information is sent out to the newspapers, and the press gallery has been most generous in the way in which it has dealt with the information we have sent out from time to time. The same applies to the Associated Press. We have issued also some lantern slides which are being used for lectures in various parts of the country, and those slides are in very great demand; they go from place to place as rapidly as we can send them and we are increasing our stock very considerably. They represent the various hospitals, exterior and interior, in Canada and they are accompanied by certain information showing the work that is being doiie. Then there is a bill on the wall (intjicating poster) which is displayed in all our hospitals, copies of which have been sent overseas as well in order to let the men know what they are expected to do and what is hoped for from them. It is probable that more bills of that nature may be got out from time to time. As far as the tuberculosis patients are concerned, the Commission some time ago issued a small brochure By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Have you had these bills ])rinted in French for distribution in Quebec? — A. We have not done so yet, sir, I think that will be done a little later. I was about to say we [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 971 have issued a brochure dealing with tuberculosis, telling the men who are suffering from tuberculosis wliat they should do to help themselves. There has been a very great demand for them, in fact I believe, the broch\ire has run through two editions. Another matter which I think has been mentioned in the evidence was the disable- ment fund which the Commission, some months ago, started in to gather. You will remember that a considerable sum of money was donated to the Machine Gun Fund, but it was found that quite a large amount of that fund was not required and some of the donors offered to donate the money for some other purpose. It was suggested that a disablement fund might be started, and about $126,000 have been received without any public appeal being made for the purpose. That money has been invested in War bonds, and it will form the nucleus of a fund which I have no doubt will be required when the war is over. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. What is the object of that fund? — A. To meet the requirements of "hard luck " cases, principally. Q. What do you mean by that? — A. There will be men who have no legal claim upon the Government at all who will have to be helped. Q. What do you mean by that, can you not come down a little closer than that ? — A. Supposing you have the case of a returned soldier who has been discharged, and he cannot hold his job in private life, say because he is addicted to liquor; we will say that man is living in Montreal, and he has a brother in Saskatchewan on a farm, and that the brother says : " If you can get my brother and his family to me, I will look after him, but I cannot afford to bring him out myself." The man himself has no money; what are we going to do about it? You will require to have some fund by which you can help cases of that kind. Q. With regard to that $126,000 was it turned over to the Hospitals Commission to be used for that purpose? — A. It is in the hands of the Commission. Q. Has it come to the Commission from the Government? — A. No, sir, it has come from the subscribers. We had one donation of $100,000. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Who handed the money over to you? Was it paid by the subscribers to the Government for machine-guns, and by the Government handed over to the Military Hospitals Commission for this purpose? — A. This money was never paid to the Government, it was money raised, subscribed, but not paid to the Government, and those who had raised it wished it to be used for this purpose. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. It was raised by a committee and was handed over to the Military Hospitals Commission before it reached the Government? — A. It never reached the Govern- ment. Mr. Carruthers of Montreal gave $100,000 towards it. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. During navigation of the St. Lawrence are any of the discharged soldiers brought up by water to Montreal, or are they landed at Quebec? — A. At Quebec. Q. The fact of navigation being opened makes no change? — A. No, sir. Q. Will you continue to use St. John and Halifax in the summer time? — A. Halifax is used by the troop ships in the sunmier time, St. John has not been used, I do not know whether it will be. By the Chairman: Q. Have you anything else to suggest? — A. I have two or three reconmiendations, sir. [Mr. E. H: Scammell.] 972 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Will you be good enough to give them? — A. One is with regard to the Govern- ment pay to men who go into the Government service in Ottawa. A good deal of complaint has been made before this Committee that men are taken on at $40 per month. I think a recommendation should be made by this Committee, if I may be bold enough to suggest it, that the minimum amount should be increased to a living wage. There will be very serious cause for complaint among the soldiers of this district if they are expected when they enter the Government service to start at $500 a year. By Hon. Mr. Murphy : Q. Should not the returned soldiers in the other districts be as well treated as they are in this district? — A. Certainly, but that is not the inside service, sir, I am speaking of the Inside Service. Q. But it may be in the Inside Service in other districts. — A. It will be nearly all outside service in the other districts. Q. And you are referring to the inside service only? — A. I am referring to packers and messengers and positions of that description which are practically all in the inside service here in Ottawa. I would very much like to see the remuneration raised to a living wage, and I may say that some of the deputy ministers have stated, in correspondence with the Commission, that they would like to see it raised, but they are helpless in the matter. By the Chairman: Q. One suggestion that has been made is that the man who has served as a soldier should have the time that he has already spent in the service of his country regarded as time spent in the Civil Service, and that would put up the salary which he would be entitled to receive to the same amount as he would have received had be been in the Civil Service at the time he enlisted? — A. I put that down as the next item, sir. I think most certainly that should be done. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. That is reasonable ? — A. It applies to his civil pension as well when he becomes sixty or sixty-five years of age. Q. I think it should, too I — A. I think his service should be reckoned. Q. His military service should not hurt him. By the Chairman: Q. That is to be regarded as one of your recommendations ? — A. I wish that to be one of my recommendations. I do not know exactly what the Government is going to do with regard to the land settlement question. I believe it is now before the House, but there are quite a large number of men who applied for homesteads before enlisting'. According to the legislation, or the order in council, passed at the commencement of the war, these men were to be protected during their absence, that is their residence was excused, their term of military service counting as residence; but the improvements have to be completed afterwards before the patent could be given. A number of men have come back, especially to western Canada, who have no money to go on their homesteads again. I therefore suggest that in any grant which may be made by the Government to assist men to take up land provision should be made to extend the privileges of that to men who already have taken up land, who have done a certain amount of work on it, and are prepared to go back if that is put through. I know several cases at the present moment who would go out on their homesteads. Q. Do you mean if a man has been on a homestead for six months and then enlists and spends a year and a half in military service, he should be regarded as having spent two years' residence on his homestead? — A. That is already done, sir. What I want is this,: if the Government is going to advance $2,000 or its equivalent to the.^ fMr. E. H. Scammell.] RECEPTION', TKEAT2IENT AND RE-EDUCAilON 973 meu who take up homesteads now de novo that the same advance or its equivalent should be made to the men who already have taken up homesteads. At any rate, that they should be helped to go out on their homestead. I should very much like to see a recommendation to that effect made by this Committee, in which case I think it would carry. I do not know whether the Committee is going to deal with the problem of demo- bilization or employment when demobilization takes place. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Before taking that matter up, 1 would like to say that the evidence we have had so far shows that out of 345 or 346 men who have gone through your hands only five or six wanted to go back to the land. In the 13,000 men who have gone through your hands I suppose most of them have been asked, in the tabulated list of questions, whether they desire to go on the farm? — A. They have been asked what occupation they desire to follow^ Q. How many of them have said thex wanted to farm? — A. I should not think two per cent. Bear in mind that these are not well men. Q. I want to get some definite idea how many two per cent would be? — A. Two per cent would be 2G0. If we actually had 150 I should be surprised. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Some have said they would go back if the Government gave them fuiancial assistance? — A. I am satisfied that when that is known the number will be increased, and especially when demobilization comes, when we are going to have healthy, sound men returning. The majority of those who have returned now are sick men, men who should never go to work on land, and it is small wonder that our figures are very low. I do not know whether the members of the Committee are aw^are that some time ago the Government of Australia took a census of their men and found that 24 per cent were ready to go on the land if it was a case of assisted settlement. Q. Mr. Kidner said they were willing to go on the land if they were given a beautiful farm in a warm valley? — A. I do not know about that. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. The last part of the resolution introduced by the ^Minister of the Interior applies to soldiers who take up land after they have returned, but you recommend that it should be made to apply also to those who took up land before going overseas ? — A. Precisely. Q. The last paragraph of the resolution reads as follows: — and further to provide that the Board may loan, upon such terms and con- ditions as may be prescribed, to any such settler an amount not exceeding two thousand dollars for acquiring land for agricultural purposes, payment of encumbrances on land used for agricultural purposes, improvement of agricul- tural lands, erection of farm buildings and purchase of stock, machinery and equipment, the money to be expended under the supervision ol the Board, and all expenditure made under the terms of this resolution to be paid out of such moneys as Parliament may appropriate for the purpose. ^Vhat you wish is that that provision shovJd apply not only in favour of the men re- turning who want to take up land, but also for the man Avho had taken up land before he left? — A. Precisely, that is the point I want to make. The Chairman : I think that the matter of demobilization and land settlement had better be postponed until the Committee finishes its first report regarding the treatment of disabled men coming home. Then, if we decide to go further into the examination with respect to the placing of fit men, we will be glad to hear what Mr. Scammell has to say, [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] 974 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.P.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Mr. Pardee: Perhaps we had better decide to subpoena no further witnesses uniil we settle this point. I take it that this Committee was appointed for the returned soldier, and if you are going to have a report only on the treatment of disabled men it would only be the fringe of the subject if we put in such a report as is suggested. The Chairman : I think it would be desirable to make our report in two parts, the first dealing with the evidence we have taken as to the efficiency and sufficiency of the measures now being taken to look after disabled men as they come home. Probably Parliament will wish to discuss that matter some time during the present session. The greater question of what will be done with the fit men after they come back from the war will engage this Committee for many sessions, and which, if the Committes desire to study, we certainly should study. Mr. Pardee: I am not altogether prepared to subscribe to the idea that there are two sides to this report. We can thresh that out at another sitting. The Chairman: I understood the other day in connection with the interim report it was the desire of the Committee to present to Parliament some synopsis of the present evidence which should be prepared as soon as possible. Mr. Pardee : I do not care to press the matter just now. By the Chairman: Q. What have you further to say, Mr. Scammell? — A. If we are not going to touch the broader question, I have nothing more I wish to say. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. We were told in Montreal that there were several projects under way to give increased accommodation. Has any decision been arrived at? — A Would you mind asking Mr. Armstrong that question? By the Chairman: Q. The recent decision on the part of the Government to take over through the Army Medical Corps all the medical services in connection with the Military Hospitals Commission having been passed, and being now a fact, has that involved any consider- able dislocation in arrangements that you had previously made, and what steps ar3 to be taken by the Military Hospitals Commission to provide a solatium, so to speak, for such individuals as may find themselves not called upon to perform the work that they expected? Mr. Pardee : Under the Medical Board ? The Chairman: Yes. By the Chairman: Q. Take, for example, the case in Montreal. The Military Hospitals Commission appointed an officer who appeared before this Committee, Dr. Mackenzie Forbes, and authorized him to engage a staff for certain purposes. He secured nurses from various institutions on the understanding that certain hospital arrangements would be made. Now he is assigned to another altogether different work under the Army Medical Corps, and all the arrangements he had made with different nurses fall to the ground. What provision is the Military Hospitals Commission taking to relieve the blow as far as these other people are concerned? — A. Any nurses who were in the employ of the Commission and are competent may be taken over by the Army Medical Corps. Q. For example, in Montreal, I vmderstand they secured the services of several valuable nurses who came back from the other side, and also the matrons of one or two of the hospitals, to take up this special work, and now they are all cut adrift with a mere " thank you." — A. I am not aware of the fact that that was done. Q. Has that matter received serious consideration on the part of the Military Hospitals Commission as to what steps shall be taken to cause the changes to work [Mr. B. H. Scammell.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 975 as little hardship to individuals who suffer by it as possible? — A, That is being taken into consideration. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What is being done? — A. These people are on pay at present. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex): Q. What people? — A. The staff that we have employed. By the Chairman: Q. Has the alteration of programme made a very great difference in ydur staff? — A. No, sir, it has not. Q. Have you found it necessary to drop many who have been otherwise employed? — A. No, I doubt if we have dropped any. Q. Can you place all who have been engaged under the auspices of the Military Hospitals Commission? — Practically every one who is satisfactory. Q. Now, it has been represented to me that at several points besides Toronto there are ample manufacturing establishments for the making of artificial limbs. Is it your intention to keep the supplying of artificial limte entirely at Toronto? — A. No. Q. What further steps are you taking to have artificial limbs supplied in other parts jof Canada ? — A. If you will ask Mr. Armstrong, he has gone into that matter and can inform you. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Will you explain how appointments of medical men are made. Are they political? — A. What do you mean exactly by "political"? Q. Supposing you need the services of medical men in Montreal. A medical man applies for an appointment and is told that his application will be considered. He waits some months, but nothing seems to have been done in the meantime. He wants to know then whether to go to the party in power to be recommended or to the university, or how the appointment is to be made. — A. The appointments are made upon merit, upon qualifications. Q. By the commission itself? — A. The appointments which will be made in future are to be made by the Army Medical Corps after the names have been approved by the commission. Any suggestion of politics^ entering into the thing is entirely outside the mark. The commission is only too anxious to get the most expert medical and surgical services available in the country. Q. I have been told there was some difficulty in getting medical men in Mont- real because they did not want to give up their practice. I have known some who applied who have been unable to get positions and have wondered if they needed political recommendations. — A. There is nothing of that kind at all. It is a ques- tion of qualification. Q. W^ho decides the qualification, the Army Medical Corps? — A. Yes, in consul- tation with the Commission. By the Chairman: Q. Has this list of cases, some forty or so, which has l>een laid before this com- mittee in the way of individual complaints, been submitted to the Hospitals Commis- sion? — A. No, sir. May I have a copy of it? The Chairman : I think we might ask Mr. Scammell to report on each of these cases. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] 976 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. One of the soldiers heard in Montreal complained that when they landed at Halifax neither the medical men nor the nurses could understand them, that is the Trench soldiers. Has that been remedied? The Chairman: That is in the evidence and will be a subject for us to report ^'n. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. You do not know anything about that?— A. I^could not tell you, sir. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What is your position, Mr. Scammell? AVhat'are you called in the Commis- sion? — A. Secretary. Q. Mr. Armstrong is what? — A. Director. Q. And Sir James Lougheed is? — A. President. Q. And it is with you three tlmt largely the work of the Commission lies? — A. There are others associated with us. Q. Yes, I know. But you are the acting head, you are the works? — A. With Colonel Thompson and Colonel Sharpies. Q. Anybody else? — A. And Mr. Kidner. Q. Now then, your duties are just what, particularly? We understand what Sir James Lougheed's are. Mr. Armstrong is director, w^e will get his duties from himself. Your duties as secretary are what? What are you supposed to have supervision of — everything? — A. I am supposed to know something about everything. Q. The internals all go through your hands? — A. I am in touch with everything that is done in the Commission, and I am also the treasurer and paymaster. I attend to a great deal of the correspondence and many other matters. By the Chairman: Q. The six gentlemen you have mentioned. Sir James Lougheed, yourself, Mr. Armstrong, the director, Colonel Thompson, medical superintendent, Mr. Kidner, vocational director, and Colonel Sharpies, officer commanding the unit — an examina- tion of these six would cover the entire ground of the activities of the Military Hospi- tals Commission, would it? — A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Now then, when you became the Military Hospitals Commission, you displaced the Army Medical Corps ? — A. In what way do you mean " displaced " ? Q. You took over the duties of the Army Medical Corps? — A. No, we did not. Q. What did you do then? — A. We took over the duties of providing convalescent hospitals for returned soldiers which up to that time had been managed by a small committee of the Militia Department, of which the Director-General of Medical Ser- vices was a member. Q. Who was he? — A. The gentleman at that time was Colonel Jacques, the Acting Director-General. There was also the Director-General of Engiueerdng Services, Lieut.-Colonel Hallick of the Ordnance Corps. Q. All the Military Hospitals Commission had to do was to take over the con- valescent homes? — A. Was to provide convalescen't homes. Q. You took over what there were ? — A. Yes, and the' Commission was empowered to provide medical services and to provide nurses and carry on. Q. Outside entirely of the Army Medical Corps ?-!— A. This is the condition: (reads) — That the Commission be empowered to call in the aid of any department of the Federal Administration, in particular to use the machinery of the Militia Department, and where desirable to draw on the department for supplies, stores and equipment, and to utilize the services of the Divisional and District staffs. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 977 By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Is that an extract from the Order in Council? — A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Pardee: Q. The order reads " to utilize the services of the Divisional and District staffs ? " —A. Yes. Q. Would that include the services of the Army Medical Corps? — A. Yes. Q. Did you do that?— A. Yes. Q. Did you get rid of many of the Array Medical Corps? Did you supersede them and do without their assistance in carrying on active duties? — A. No. Q. Did you take over the medical end altogether? — A. "We did to a large extent in the summer of last year, when a further Order in Council was put through charging the Commission with the whole duty of the medical services. Q. And that meant the medical side of the Convalescent Hospitals as well as the vocational and other side of the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. Yes. Q. Then the Army Medical Corps was left with nothing? — A. With the men pro- ceeding overseas. Q. With men proceeding overseas only, everything here was Military Hospitals Commission? — A. Yes. Q. How many officers under pay, all told, are there in the Military Hospitals Com- mission? — A. Medical Officers? Q. Every kind of officer? — A. I can supply those figures. Q. Perhaps you might get them for me? — A. I will fill them in. Q. Pefhaps you might do that, and you might give also what their salaries are? — A. Excuse me, you want a complete list, the pay-roll of the whole staff of the Com- mission? Q. The present staff? — A. Do you mean the whole staff? Q. Wait now, I will put it another way : Are there any large percentage of men employed under the Military Hospitals Commission that were formerly employed in the Army Medical Corps? — A. Yes, there are several who now revert to the Army Medical Corps under the arrangement just spoken of. Q. Who now " revert " to the Army Medical Corps ? — A. For pay. Q. Under what arrangement? — A. Under the arrangement that the Commission has now made, that the Army Medical Corps will carry on the medical service. By the Chairman: Q. They were seconded to you and now they revert to the Army Medical Corps? — A. And they are to be paid by the Army Medical Corps. By Mr. Pardee: Q. And these Army Medical Corps men now want to go overseas? — A. I do not know. The Army Medical Corps men are now looking after the medical service in our hospitals as well. Q. You employ all the medical services for the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. We are not doing so now. Q. Who looks after that?— A. The Director General of Medical Services, or his A.D.M.S. in the District. Q. And he belongs to whom?— A. To the Army Medical Corps. Q. Then am I rij?ht in saying that the Army Medical Corps now supplies the Medical Staff for the Military Hospitals Commission?— A. Absolutely. Q. Does the Military Hospitals Commission then have charge of these hospitals and not have the charge of the medical unit of each? — A. Except indirectly. Q. And that the Commission would have charge of the appointing of these men?— A. We have the right to say whether a man should be appointed or not and after he is ippointed we have the right to say whether the apiwintment is satisfactory, and if it is not satisfactory we have the right to say that he should be removed. [Mr. E. H. ScammelL] 28277—62 978 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETUUlsED SOLDIERS Q. Then is the process this: that the Army Medical Corps has charge of the medical persomiel of the Military Hospitals, that they recommend the men to you in the event of your wanting a man, and you say whether you will take him or not? — A. Exactly. Q. So that in the last analysis you are looking after the medjical unit? — A. We have the power of approval and disapproval. Q. Then what is the good of the Army Medical Corps, is it not getting hack to the old position that you are liable for the Military Hospitals? — A. In the eyes of the public, most certainly we are. Q. In the eyes of the public and in the eyes of everybody else. Now I was asking if you have the approval and the rejection of the medical staff, can you see any sense in the Army Medical Corps being in there too ? — A. Are you asking me to answer that question as Secretary of the Military Hospitals Commission, or do you want my personal opinion? Remember I am not a medical man. Q. Both — as a man having charge of these matters, and having knowledge of it. — A. My personal opinion is that the Military Hospitals Commission should have charge of the whole work from A to Z. Q. Is it your opinion, as a business man, and as a man having charge of this organization, that this Army Medical Corps is entirely unnecessary in the Military Hospitals as far as the medical unit is concerned? — A. No, sir, I will not say that, though my opinion is that the commission is capable of taking care not only of the hospitals, but of the medical side of the work as well. In some districts we have had some difficulty in getting expert medical men owing to the large number who have gone overseas, and owing to the large number that were attached to the Army Medical Corps and were not available; of course thes>e men are now available. Q. They are available? — A. Yes. Q. What is the Army Medical Corps attached to ? What do they do, what are their duties? — A. Their duties are simply medical duties, hospital duties. Q. In your hospitals ? — A. In our hospitals, in base hospitals and in camp hospitals. Q. We might take one concrete case, perhaps, and get at it, this way: You have a home on College Ave., Toronto, the old Bishop Strachan School, that is entirely in your care? — A. Yes. Q. Has the Army Medical Corps anything to do with it? — A. Yes. Q. Through whose instructions, on their own initiative, or on yours? — A. Through the A.D.M.S. of that district. Q. Are they there under the Military Hospitals Commission control? — A. Only indirectly. Q. Who appointed them? — A. They were appointed by the Army Medical Corps. Q. On whose request — yours? — A. I cannot say. Q. How did they get there?— A. Because the Army Medical Corps has been in charge of that work. Q. But the Military Hospitals Commission is in control? — A. The Military Hos- pitals Commission is responsible for the whole of the work, but the Army Medical Corps is responsible for the medical section of that work. Q. Yes, but would you allow a man to go in there you did not want? — A. Cer- tainly not. Q. Then you are responsible for that medical service? — A. I said indirectly we were. Q. But not directly? By the Chairman: Q. As I understand it, you have not power to appoint them? — A. Not to-day. Q. But you have the power of objection, which is equivalent to rejection. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] RECEPTIOy, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 979 By Mr. Pardee: Q. Well then, it comes to this, in the last analysis that the Army Medical Corps is in charge of the Medical Unit of the Convalescent Hospitals? — A. That is so, sir. Q. They put their men in there for the care of these patients on the request by you to the A.D.M.S., is that right? — A. Sometimes, and in other cases the A.D.M.S. reports that a medical man is necessary at a certain station and according to the agreement which we have with the Army Medical Corps, he must submit the name of that medical man. Q. To you? — A. To the Director General of the Medical Services. Q. You get this through as many people as you can, apparently, I understand how you would use this word "indirect". It is a fine system. Now then the A.D.M.S. says something ought to be done and puts it up through the D.G.AI.S. to the Hospitals Commission, is not that right? — A. Exactly. Q. And then when he tells you that you go to whom? — A. He states what should be done there, Q. And he sends a man there, does he? — A. He sends the man. Q. And if you like that man, you keep him? — A. If we approve of him. Q. He stays there if you like him, and if you don't like him, you tell the A.D.M.S. who sent him?— A. We tell the A.D.M.S., through the D.G.M.S. Q. Who is that?— A. Col. Potter. Q. And he does what? — A. He takes the man back and puts him at some other duty. Q. It would take some time, I would think, in case the man was not satisfactory, to fill the position. How long does it take you to get a man? — A. It entirely depends upon the distance from the centre of operations. Q. Then we can leave it at that, that the Army Medical Corps and the Military . Hospitals Commission have a joint responsibility for the care of these Hospitals? — A. Yes. Q. And there is no direct responsibility, that is about right is it not? — A. It is not very far wrong. Mr. Pardee : We will let it stand at that. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. Have you found that inefficient men have been sent to the Hospitals, by the Army Medical Corps at any time, men that have had to be removed? — A. I am not aware of it. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Now, you say either the A.M.C., or the Military Hospitals Commission Com- mand, if they were alone, could look after this proposition. Do you agree with that? — A. What do you mean by "this proposition"? Q. I mean the Convalescent Hospitals, etc., and what is in connection with it. — A. I have no hesitation in saying that the Army Medical Corps would be absolutely unable to cope with the situation, as they have not the machinery. They are a medical organization only. By the Chairman : Q. Put it the other way : If the Military Hospitals Commission were alone could they cope with the situation ? — A. Certainly they could if they were permitted to obtain the services of any suitable medical men, whether A.M.C. officers or not. By Mr. Pardee: Q. The Army Medical Corps could not cope with it, but the ^lilitary Hospitals Commission could? — A. Because they have built up the necessary machinery. [Mr. E. H. ScammelL] 28277— 62§ 980 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-G.E.F.^RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. You told me just now that they are not capable of taking hold of the whole work, and that your Military Hospitals Commission is. Is the Army Medical Corps capable of taking care of the Medical end of it? — A. I see no reason to the contrary. Q. Do you see any reason for having divided responsibility? — A. I do not. Q. If you wanted medical men would it not be the sensible thing to go and get them from somewhere, some competent organization of which you knew? — A. That is what we are doing. Q. When were you doing that, up till when? — A. Really up to this date. Q. And it was stopped then? — A. Yes, partially. Q. And the Militia Department, or what Department was it, stepped in and stopped it. Who stopped it? — A. The Militia Department wished us to use the Army Medical Corps. Q. And they told you that you must go to the Army Medical Corps for them ? — A. Practically. Q. And since then you have been carrying out this arrangement you told me about just now. Anyway you did get other men before somebody stepped in and stopped it? — ^A. Yes. Q. Has the system been as satisfactory during the last two months, as it was prior to that time? — A. It has been, to some extent, but the time that has elapsed has been so short it has not been possible to say how it will work out. Q. But prior to the time the change was made it was working very satisfactorily? — A. It was where we were working absolutely freely. Q. Have you ever been working absolutely freely ? — A. In one or two districts, yes. Q. What districts were those? — -A. British Columbia. Q. A long way oif — where else ? — A. London. Q. Canada?— A. Yes. Q. And the Hospitals in those districts have been absolutely under the charge of the Military Hospitals Commission ? — A. They have been, yes — Alberta too. Q. But in all the rest of them you had been working with divided authority? By the Chairman: Q. That was because the Army Medical Corps men refused to be seconded over to you. A. Or that they were refused to us. Q. That is, you never completely took over the members of the Army Medical Corps?— A. No, Sir. Q. Only in some of the provinces? — 'A. Only in some. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Do you take them over now? — A. We have taken over occasional members; for instance, in London our chief officer was an Army Medical Corps man; in Winnipeg our chief officer is an Armj' Medical Corps man — it is rather difficult for me to give you a list from memory. Q. How many beds have you, all told, that can be used to-day? I do not want a classification, I just want the number? — A. Convalescent 3,246, sanatoria 674, insane hospitals 181, other institutions 345, a total of 4,646. Q. Now that is the number of beds you have all told for returned soldiers? — A. Yes, that is those in operation. Q. All right, those in operation. — A. We have more beds that will be ready in a very short time now. This information is changing from week to week and from day to day. Probably jf we wanted to do so we could put in 500 or 1,000 more than the number. Q. What is your number there? — 4,646. Q. Could we say that the Military Hospitals Commission had going and coming to-day, to-morrow, or perhaps yesterday, five thousand beds that could be imme- diately made use of? — A. Yes. Q. That would be a fair lumping of it, is that so? — A. Yes. Q. Then, how many do you expect to have by the end of May? [Mr. E. H. Scajnmell.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 981 By the Chairman: \ Q. Beds or men? — A. Will you ask that question of Mr. Armstrong? By Mr. Pardee: Q. How many men have you got in your 4,646 beds? — A. 3,373, sir. Q. Have you a surplus of 600 beds?— A. 1,300 beds. Q. How many of those are evacuated each month, Mr. Seammell? — A. That I cannot tell you offhand. Q. We want to get that; it is very important. — A. It varies very much. Q. There ought to be an average there. How many do you expect per month from now on? — A. Just a moment. (Consults documents.) This is the rate at which they have been returning during 1917: 1,569 in January, 868 in February, 2,151 in March. Q. April? — A. I have not got the figures for April, but at the present time there are two hospital ships running which bring in 650 men, or thereabouts, and making an average of three trips per month for the two hospital ships. That is 1,650. In addition to that we are getting two trips by other ships bringing an average of 300 per ship, Q. You expect about 2,200 per month from now on? — A. Exactly. Q. That is my information. Can you and will you be able to take care of them? — A. Yes. Q. Where do you propose to get extra accommodation? — A. That is one of the questions I want you to take up with Mr. Armstrong. He is prepared to deal with that. Q. All right. Now, in your opinion, are the hospitals that you now have suffi- cient in the way of equipment, and so on? — A. I do not quite understand. Q. Well, what is your opinion of the hospital on College street, Toronto? Do you think that ought to be maintained? — A. That will probably be closed by us in the not very distant future. It has served its purpose extremely well, but in eighteen months' use with 150 to 200 men in it, it got knocked about rather, especially as it was an old building to start with. Q. Then the Grey Nuns' hospital in Montreal: do you propose to keep that? — A. I think so. Q. In the same state that it is in ? — A. What do you mean by the " same state" ? Q. According to the evidence that was given to us in Montreal by witnesses whose names I do not recall at the moment, the discipline was not particularly good, the medical service was not particularly good, the light was very poor, there were cer- tain objections in it that felt to the soldier that he was almost in a criminal environ- ment, and so on. Have any of these things been changed? — A. Some of them have been gone into and changed. For instance, we have removed from there the vocational classes to the technical school. By the Chairman: Q. Giving larger space in the recreation room? — A. Giving larger space in the recreation room. The whole evidence that was taken in Montreal has been gone over to see where improvements can be made. By Mr. Pardee: Q. And they have been made? — A. And they have been made as far as possible. Q. Has your medical service there been improved? Have you a man there all the time now? — A. I cannot say. Q. Who can tell us that, under whose charge is that? — A. Under the charge of the A.D.M.S. He has been requested to have a medical man there all the time. I Mr. E. H. Seammell.] 982 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. You are not in a position to say if one is there. The Commission cannot say- to the Army Medical Corps what they shall have, that they shall have a doctor there all the time, hecause they will tell you go to ? — A. It can be done. Q. They had nine men at the Grey Nuns for twenty-four hours and they could not g-et a doctor there before a man died. lias that state of affairs been rectified? — A. That is not quite correct. The man referred to was in his own house. He was an orderly and not a patient in the hospital. Q. I will give it to you any way you like. The evidence was that there were nine men to cover twenty-four hours, and there v\^as not a man there by any manner of means all the time. Has that been rectified? — A. Orders were issued immediately for it to be rectified. Q. Has it been? — A. I should suppose so. , By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. In what respect? — A. That there should be a medical officer there the whole time. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Can you make it your business to find out?— A. I certainly will. Q. What steps will be taken to provide a remedy? — A. Steps will be taken to endeavour to have it rectified. Q. You cannot do anything except say: " We would like it done." That is right? —A. Yes. Q. If the A.D.M.S. says it is not necessary, the Military Hospitals Commission sits back and says : " That is as much as we can do," and they have done as much as they can do, is that right? — A. That is putting it bluntly. By the Chairman: Q. What new accommodation has recently been opened in Montreal? — A. Since the Loyola building do you mean? Q. Since we were down there? The Loyola building has been opened since we were down there. What accommodation have you there? — A. Accommodation for 250. Q. Is it for convalescents or for active patients? — A. For convalescents. Q. Your staff at the Grey Nuns has been moved there, I mean the administrative part of the staff, has been moved to Loyola ? — A. No, the administrative part were moved there previous to that, but we have now taken separate offices for the administrative staff. Q. Apart from both hospitals? — A. Yes, so as to give the hospitals over to their proper work. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Now, Mr. Scammell, there have been sent to me from time to time — I do not know whether the other members of the committee have received them also — papers and interviews and such articles as appear in newspapers. It is not necessary to explain them to you all. They are various complaints of returned soldiers, and I am going to take them up with you as they appear here and I want you to give your expla- nation, so that people who read this paper may be satisfied or otherwise. The Toronto Evening Telegram of the 20th April, 1917, publishes specifically eight complaints and opposite these eight complaints eight cures for them. They put first the condition, opposite they put the cure. The conditions is : 1. Daily delay in medical attention, which keeps men waiting for hours. That is the first complaint. I have a letter from a returned soldier in which he says that he went out to the Spadina Hospital, he was told to go, and he went, and he waited for a matter of two hours, and there was no medical man sent for to examine him and he finally left because he was too tired to wait any longer. Do you know if that sort of thing has been going on ? — A. I am not aware of it. It should not be. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] RECEPTIOX, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 983 Q. It should not be, surely. I want you to make a note of that i£ you will, whether or not men are not attended to within a reasonable time. We cannot expect all to get attention at once. I would like you to make a note of that. The next point is: 2. Neglect of any attention to some patients at all. And the cure for that is : Constant, careful cheeking over of the men on the register. Q. Do you see constantly that the men that are in your hospitals by a course of checking up and registration are being attended to all the time? — A. Absolutely. Q. What is your system? — A. Our system is that there is a complete record in every hospital of the man, of his disability, and the treatment he is receiving, and the rota for his attendance and the attendance of the medical officers. By the Chairman: Q. Is he examined daily? — A. No, sir, not if the man does not need it. Of course, if he is a bed case, he is. By Mr. Pardee : Q. Then, I think perhaps you will agree with this : 3. Unnecessary red tape and " militaryness " with wounded men, occasion- ing worry, inconvenience and undue exertion. And the answer, to that is : Simpler and more sympathetic system with less call upon the men. Q. Can that be remedied in any way ? — A. I do not know what is referred to there. Q. Do you think there is too much " militaryness " ? — A. No, sir. By the Chairman: Q. Might that mean that they refer a man to two or three offices to get what he is after, and these offices are widely distributed? — A. That may be what is at the back of the mind of the writer. I do not know. Q. Would you advocate some central clearing house for complaints in a city like Toronto ? — A. It is very desirable. Q. Is there any organization known to you at tlie present time acting in that capacity ? — A. Any organization in any district, do you mean ? Q. Is there any organization or office in Toronto which, at the present time, is acting as a clearing house for all kinds of soldiers' complaints ?— A. The office of the Military Hospitals Commission has been doing that all along, Q. Supposing a man comes in to get his pay adjusted or to see about his pension, will he be turned down or taken care of? — A. If it is a matter of pension, now that the Pension Commission l^as an office we should send him there. Q. Would you not think it would be better to have some one centre in Toronto where every kind of soldiers' complaints could be handled without the necessity of having the soldier travel from one office to, another? — A. It would be a most desirable thing. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Would it not be more desirable to have such a centre in, say, five sections of the province of Ontario? — A. I think it would be unnecessary machinery. Q. Do you think only one central office is necessary? — A. To deal with com- plaints ? Yes. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] 984 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLhlERS Q. One for each Military District? — A. Quite enough. Q. How many Military Districts are there in Ontario? — A- Three. Q. Don't you think that there ought to be one in each Military District ? — A. Practically there is. Q. Who does it? — A. The provincial commissions. Q. Outside of that. By the Chairman: Q. The provincial commission deals with a man if he wants a job- That is all they do? — A, It is only the provincial commission in the province of Quebec that takes that line. Every other regards itself as a clearing house for the complaints of the men. Q. Can a soldier, for example, go down to the office where Mr. Warwick is in Toronto with a complaint about pension or back pay, or to be retaken over by the Hospitals Commission, and can he get immediate satisfaction or is he referred to to some other office? — A. Mr. Warwick will immediately take the matter up. Q. Ab inito? — A. Ab inito. Here, the office ofl the Military Hospitals Com- mission acts as a clearing house -except for pensions. The pensions matters go direct to the Board of Pension Commissioners. Everything else that comes in from all these provincial commissions — we have a stack of correspondence dealing with individual cases of men — they go into the case, report on it, investigate it, sometimes send around to the man's house. They do it most sympathetically. Q. Taking the case throughout Canada as a whole do you think it desirable to have some recognized centre or clearing house? What authority should undertake that? — A. It should be the provincial commissions. They come into closer touch with the men. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Who are the provincial commissions under? — A. The provincial governments. Q. I do not agree with you. — A. They have been doing that work splendidly. Q. Why should not the Military Hospitals Commission do that work?— A. The Military Hospitals Commission is doing it through the provincial commissions. There are for that purpose sub-committees of the Military Hospitals Commission. Q- Under whom is Mr. Warwick? He is not under the Hospitals Commission? — ^A. No, he is under the provincial commission. He is secretary of the provincial commission for Ontario, but in so far as he does that work he is acting with the Military Hospitals Commission. We probably get half a dozen letters from Mr. Warwick every day. Q. Is there anybody in London doing that same work? — A. Certainly, the office of the provincial commission in London. Q. Have they got an office opened there? — A. Yes, with a paid secretary. Q. And every description of complaint will be attended to in these offices? — A. Absolutely. Q. You will not send men from one place to another as was being done when we took evidence in Toronto? — A. Men will go from one place to another. Q. Why should they if Mr. Warwick can do every single thing ? — A. Mr. Warwick does do it whenever a man goes to him. By the Chairman: Q. If a man comes in to Mr. Warwick about his pay, does he communicate with the Military authorities or send the man a distance of a mile and a half to the Exhibition Grounds? — A. There may be cases in which it is desirable to send a man there, but ordinarily he would communicate himself direct. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 985 Q. You gave us a list of the secretaries of the several provincial commissions throughout Canada, Messrs. Warwick, Pye, McCoy, Robinson, Hill, Stutchbury, and so on. These are each secretaries of local organizations. Now, are these men acting as a general clearing house for all soldiers' troubles in these provinces? — A. They are acting as clearing houses in most instances. Q. And are they advertising throughout the province in newspapers and other- wise that all soldiers' complaints will be dealt with immediately? — A. They are. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Are they doing that advertising at the expense of the Government? — A. At the expense of the provincial governments. Q. Is it with the authority of the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. It is with the concurrence of the Military Hospitals Commission. Q. So that these men are practically responsible to you ? — A. In regard to all com- plaints, they are the clearing house for complaints, and as such are responsible to the Military Hospitals Commission. The Chairman : I want in that connection, Mr. Pardee, to show you the adver- tising in Montreal papers. This is a comparatively limited form (producing clip- ping). Mr. Pardee: (Reads clipping as follows) — Soldiers' Employment Commission, 294 St. Catharine East, Thone "East 3968." Co-operating with the Military Hospitals Commission. The only official source of information in the province of Quebec regarding employment for discharged soldiers. Employers and the public generally are invited to co-operate in securing suitable employment for returned men. Employers will help the cause if they will advise this office when they give employ- ment to soldiers giving all particulars and give notice should they leave their employ- ment. This information is required for the purpose of records only. Soldiers residing in Quebec city or surrounding districts may apply to Jas. A. McManamy, Esq.; in Sherbrooke, to J. Iv. Edwards, Esq.; in Three Rivers, to P. L. Lassonde, Esq. In other municipalities, soldiers may apply to the mayor, who is requested to communicate with this office. No charge is made for services to the soldier or employer. Mr. John Pye, Hon. Geo. A. Simard, Secretary. Chairman. The Witness: That is the only case in which the Provincial Commission limits itself to that work. Q. Have you not samples of advertising that has been published in the other pro- vinces, in order to let the returned men know of the state of affairs? — A. I might be able to find that. Q. Is there any such advertising? — A. Not put out through the ^filitary Hos- pitals Commission, possibly put out by the Provincial Commission. Q. Do you not think you ought to do it? — A. Possibly. Mr. Pardee: The point is there are too many heads; somebody ought to do it, but nobody has done it. There is some little advertisement I have noticed by the Provincial Commission in the daily papers in Toronto, but unless you dig through the paper with a microscope, you could not find it, it is so small. Mr. Middlebro: A complaint has been made by Sergeant Lowery, Chairman of the Investigation Committee, Great War Veterans' Association, Toronto, that there [Mr. E. H. ScaiximelL] 986 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS is 110 central point to which the returned soldier can go in order to make complaints. He stated when giving evidence before this Committee (p. 822) : What we suggest is that there be established some central agency for returned soldiers where we can go and promptly adjust any matter, whether con- nected with pay and allowances, pensions, or any other branch of the service, and that some person be there with whom business could be transacted. It was further stated in the evidence that now a man has to call at four different places in the city of Toronto in order to transact all the business he may have with the Department ; he has to go to 59 Yonge Street if his business is in connection with pen- sions, and then to the Exhibition Camp if it is a question of pay, it takes him twenty- five minutes to go there, and twenty-five minutes to come back, and there are two other places which he may have to visit in order to get the information he requires, or do the business he has in hand as a returned soldier. What I want to point out is that if there is a central clearing-house in the City of Toronto to which every returned soldier could go and have his grievances looked into and settled it would be of very great advantage. The Chairman : Before the Committee adjourns I would like to call its attention to a letter I have just received as follows : — Adjutant General's Office^ MiLiTu Headquadters^ Canada, April 27, 1917. Dear Sir Herbert Ames: — Be Dr. Marlow. On April 11, Colonel (Dr.) Marlow, Toronto, wrote the AA.G., M.D. No. 2., as follows : — "I feel that it would not be consistent to enter into an arrangement with The Militia Department which would necessitate my going overseas before the Committee reports to Parliament, and especially as it is more than likely that many features of tlie Canadian Medical Services both overseas and in Canada will be discussed." Previous to this, however. Dr. Marlow had offered his services for overseas and they were accepted. In view of the decision of the British War Cabinet, on April 20, in which it was stated that every physician and surgeon and every man wuth medical training, of military age, must be called up for service immediately, this decision having been arrived at on account of the submarine warfare carried on against hospitals ships, and the necessity of holding casualties in France, instead of transferring them to Great Britain, I have to request that you will be good enough to inform me whether or not you need the services of Dr. Marlow any more before your Committee, and if so, that they will be utilized at as early a date as possible. If, however, you do not require him before your Committee again, I should be glad if you would address him to that effect, in order that he may take up his duties overseas without further delay. Yours sincerely, (Sgd) W. E HODGINS, Major-General A / Adjutant-General. Sir Herbert A^fes, M.P., Chairman, Parliamentary Committee, on Eeturned Soldiers, Ottawa, Ontario. Committee adjourned until 3.30 p.m. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND UE-EDiVATION 937 House of Commons, Room 301 April 27, 1917 The Committee met at 3.30 p.m., the Chairman, Sir Herbert Ames, presiding. The examination of ^fr. Scammell resumed. The Witness: A question was asked me this morning about advertisements by the Soldiers Aid Commissions in various newspapers. Here is an advertisement by the Ontario Soldiers' Aid Commission, (Reads) "RETURNED SOLDIERS. The Head Office of the Soldiers' Aid Commission of Ontario (Incorporated hy Special Act of the Legislature of Ontario) is at No. 116 College Street, Toronto. The public are cordially invited to co-operate with us in securing suitable employment and in doing other helpful work for returned soldiers and their dependents. Classes for the Vocational Re-education of returned soldiers who have been so disabled as to prevent them from resuming their former occupations have now been provided, and any man who regards his disability to be of such a nature as to entitle him to the benefit of these classes is requested to make application to Mr. W. W. Xichol, Vocational Officer for Ontario, No. IIG College Street, Toronto, when full particulars will be gladly furnished and arrangements at once made for a Board to enable those entitled to obtain courses of instruction in the subjects suitable to their particular disability. In addition to getting instruction free, the support of the soldier and his family or dependents during the period of retraining and for one month after it is completed, is provided for according to scale. Cases where assistance for the families of soldiers is required, are daily reported to us, and we will thankfully receive subscriptions to our "Relief Fund". Subscribers to this Fund are assured that payments from same are made only after careful investigations of the merits of each case, and particulars will be furnished on request to subscribers as to the disposition of their donation. All donations should be made payable to the order of the Soldiers' Aid Com- mission, and in each case an official receipt will be issued therefor. All services are free of charge. For further particulars as to our work, please write or telephone N. 2800. W. D. McPHERSON, K. C, M.P.P., Chairman. J. WARWICK, Secretary." The Witness: That is a splendid advertisement. The Chairman : It is a much more comprehensive advertisement than some of the others. By Mr. Pardee: Q. In what paper does that appear?— A. In "The Khaki Call". Q. I was asking you about these various matters, and we had just finished dealing with the Bureau of Information. The next ground of complaint that we have here is,' unsuitable accommodation for amputation convalescents and tardy provision of arti- [Mr. E. H. Scainmell.] 988 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS ficial limbs. You are doing away with your place on College Street, and where will the inmates from there go, to the Booth Memorial Home? — A. Those who require artificial limbs. Q. Will they go only to the Booth Memorial Home? — A. That will be an Ortho- paedic centre only. Q. Where will the rest of the patients go? — A. Some to Whitby and some to Guelph. Q. As to the supplying of artificial limbs, are you making any arrangements to enlarge the manufacture and increase the output? — A. Very considerably. Q. What are you doing? — A. Mr. Armstrong has all the facts and figures dealing with that matter, if you would be good enough to ask him that question, Mr. Pardee. Q. Then I want to get to the out-patient matter. Do you find many complaints by reason of the fact that men are taken away from their homes and made inmates of institutions when they might be reasonably be left as out-patients ? — A. There is always a certain amount of kicking. Q. I know, but do you find very much of it? — A. Not a great deal. Q. Well, not a considerable amount ? — A. Oh, there is a good deal, the men prefer to be at their own homes. Q. Is it not possible to have them at their own homes to a greater degree than at the present time, and still go on with your treatment?— A. No. Q. Why not? — A. The contrary is the case. When a man is at his own home he is more or less a free agent. He stays out as late as he chooses at night, he takes such exercise as he cares to take and he is not under the medical supervision he would be in a medical institution. By the Chairman: Q. Is it not a fact that your medical people state that the furlough that a man gets on arrival here to go home is as a rule medically the opposite of beneficial for him ? — A. There is considerable consensus of opinion in that direction. Q. And you simply give the man the furlough for sympathetic reasons, and take him back usually in a poorer condition than when he went there from the view of medical improvement? — A. Yes. Q. The established rule is to let the man go home if he is at all fit to go home, but it has to be taken as generally impairing the man's health and retarding his recovery? — A. Except from a psychological point of view. By Mr. Pardee: Q. When a man is an out-patient is he still allowed subsistence allowance? A. Certainly. Q. He gets all the perquisites that an in-patient would get? — A. And 60 cents per day in addition. By ihe Chairman : Q. Has that been raised to a dollar? — A. No. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. It is the vocational class that has been raised? — A. It is the re-educational cases whose pay has been raised to a dollar. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Why should that be raised to a dollar when the ordinary out-patient would not receive it? — A. The ordinary married out-patient is in receipt of rather more than the man who is taking the re-education, and there has been no apparent reason to change the militia regulation in that respect, that sixty cents per day should be the sub- sistence rate for men living at their homes. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] RECEPTION', TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 989 Q. Whereas a man who is on vocational training gets a dollar a day extra? —A. From the Ist of April. Q. I do not see the reason of that. Supposing a married man is an out-patient, why does the vocational training entitle him to forty cents a day extra? — A. The married man who is an out-patient receives $30 a month, plus $20 a month, plus whatever the Patriotic Fund may allow him, plus sixty cents a day. The married man without a family who is undergoing re-edueation is allowed $8 a month spending money and $.'5r) for his wife, which makes $43, plus his subsistence, which is now raised to a dollar a day. There is no Patriotic Fund allowance for him. That is his entire income. Q. You have heard of the Harding case in Toronto where the man was suflFer- ring from tuberculosis. He lived with his wife and he was in such condition that he could not possibly work. He was the father of eight children, he was 46 years of age, dismissed from the Spadina Hospital, March 2nd, as a disabled soldier; he was told by the doctors there that the only hope for improvement in his case was his removal to Regina, Saskatchewan, the atmospheric conditions there being so different from England and here that it might relieve the asthma and bronchitis. He had twenty-two years unblemished career as a worker on shells in Woolwich, England; then he came to Canada, but war was declared, and he joined his six brothers, four of whom were in Canada and two in England, leaving a wife and ten children. When he was overseas he contracted consumption, came back here, was dis- missed from Spadina Avenue Hospital, and he was put on a pension, the third class pension, I think it was about $24 a month- They were in that condition, and his wife got work, and in going out to work one morning she was killed by a street car. Would the Hospitals Commission have charge of such a case? Would the Hospitals Commission dismiss a man with a wife and ten children, let him go, and allow him to remain with a pension of from $20 to $30 a month? Would that not.be in your province to take care of? — A. H the man's case had reached finality — in other words if he could not be improved by further treatment then it would be the duty of the Commission to discharge that man, and pass him to the Pensions Commission. The amount of his pension is then determined by a medical examination, on which the Pensions Commission acts. By the Chairman: Q. Based on the degree of disablement? — A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee : Q. There was a total disablement practically. Since he was discharged the PTospitals Commission had nothing more to do with him? — A. Nothing whatever, unless he comes back imder this new Order in Council for further treatment. Q. Does it not strike you, having had a great deal to do with this kind of thing, that such a case as that should not be allowed to occur, that' there should be some provision made about it? The Chairman: What provision, if any, could you suggest? Mr. Pardicp: : I would suggest there should be some sort of contingent fund. The CHAraMAN: I was asking him. Mr, Pardee : I am not criticising. I was asking for information. The Witness: That is one of the points which was brought up Q. Is that what your $100,000 is going to be used for?— A. Exactly. That is as clear an illustration as you could find of the value and necessity of a disable- ment fund. Q. Ho^ ably not until after the war. [Mr. E. H. Scimtneli.T 990 SPECIAL COMM]TTi:i'J-C.i:.l\—RKril{yED SOLDIERS Q. In any event, as soon as a man is discharged, that is an end of liim, as far as aid goes? — A. There is the assistance he gets in getting employment. Q. But if he was not able to get employment, and his wife had to go out and work for a living, and the neighbours had to bury her; you are liable for none of that under the existing regulations? — A- No. The Chairman: In other words, that case would seem to illustrate the neces- sity of some charitable or benevolent organization, with power to deal with excep- tional cases of this character. Witness : Cases which have no fair legal claim. Mr. Pardee: I would not put it as a case of compassion at all, but I would say that it should be the duty of the Government absolutely to provide for that man. The Chairman : You cannot do it by regulation, because you would have to make a regulation for each individual case. Mr. Pardee: The Government should make a regulation which would enable them to deal with these cases. The poor fellow went and fought and did his bit. Here is another case which reads: "Sick wife, missing man, his pay cut off, and he cannot get a pension, both his sons are at the Front. The woman now confined to her bed and practically nothing is to be had for her." Has the Commission no power to deal with that case? — A. That is absolutely in the hands of the Militia Department, and provision is made for all such cases. Q. Wliat provision is made? — A. That if a man is missing his assigned pay and the separation allowances are continued to his wife until he is declared dead, and then she is pensioned as a widow. Mr. Pardee: A pension was refused her because her husband had not been officially declared dead. The Chairman : And that is remedied by the new Order in Council, which would give her an allowance until the pension was either refused or granted. By Mr. Pardee: Q. In the meantime, does she get her allowance? — A. She gets her separation allowance under the old regulation. By the Chairman: Q. She gets both now? — A- But I mean under the old regulation. By Mr. Pardee : Q. Take up the Mario w report. At page 6 of his report, Col. Marlow refers to the question of the medical stores and drugs. What system are these bought on and how are they replenished and so forth? Have you to do with that, or is Mr. Arm- strong the one to tell us about that? — A. The drugs are bought in the usual way through the Purchasing Branch of the Militia Department. They are requisitioned for emergency purposes, when they can be bought on the request of the medical officer and paid for by the Commission. Q. Then these drugs are only furnished to the Militia Department? — A. Our main supply is furnished through the Militia Department. Q. You only buy emergency drugs through the Commission? — A. That is all, sir. Q. Would the Commission be able to make better contracts along these lines if it were to buy the drugs itself? — A. I do not see why that should be. Q. You do not see any reason? — A. No. Q. With the present system, then, you are quite satisfied ? — A. I think so. Q. Dr. Marlow says in his report than an undesirable effect of the present system is an undue accumulation of various kinds of supplies which may never be called for at all. Do you think that is the case? — A. In making requisitions you cannot help that in any hospital. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 991 Q. Do you make requisitions for large' amounts in bulk? — A. For what we shall likely require say, during the ensuing three months. You just ask for supplies for-three months at a time? — A. Three months at a time. Q. Colonel Marlow further says that the stock in hand, which must be carried by medical stores in the various districts would reach a value of many thousands of dollars, and that the present system if continued will some day be the cause of considerable financial loss. Do you agree with that? — A. Undoubtedly it will to some extent, but the medical stores must carry a stock of drugs in order to buy at anything like reasonable prices. I do not suppose that the loss, through deterioration, or the final destruction, of any drugs, would be anything like as great as the loss would be if we bought in small lots. Q. Then by purchasing in that way you get the drugs at better prices? — A. Certainly. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Better than if you purchased from retail dealers? — A. Exactly. By Mr. Pardee: Q. You have told us as far as you know, about the tubercular situation ? — A. 1 think so. Q. Has Colonel Thompson, your Medical Superintendent, had any previous military experience? — A. Not that 1 am aware of. Q. From the knowledge you have gained during your connection with this Military Hospitals Commission, is it necessary in your opinion, that a man should have military experience in order to occupy a position such as that? — A. I do not think so. Q. You do not agree with Dr. Marlow when he says it takes at least five years to make a medical officer and even at that the required material can only be drawn on from the ranks of university matriculants. Then he says further on in his report that no one but a medical officer with military experience should be appointed to that position. Do you take exception to that at all, or what do you say so far as your experience goes? — A. I take exception to that in this respect; that the experience of the Commission with Colonel Thompson has been a most happy one. He has grasped the work in a most able manner, and I do not think there would have been any improvement had he been one of the two members of the Army Medical Corps before he became our medical Superintendent. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Have you had any medical experience? — A. No, sir. Q. None at all? — A. No, sir. Q. You are only talking in a general way from what you have seen as Secretary of this Commission? — A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Pardee: Q. And of the men you have got, all you can say is, that, as far as your knowledge goes as a layman, their medical services are satisfactory? — A. So far as I am aware, sir. Q. Dr. Marlow says in his report that it has been impossible to secure men of high medical standing who might offer their services, on account of the various situations which have been created, such as that a former student in their office might be in command over them, and giving them orders one day, whereas the physician had been the ones to give orders previously. Do you find anything of that kind? — A. That has not come under my purview at all. Q. Have you any suggestions to make to this Committee looking to improvement in the services of the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. No, sir. Q. Then can we take it that in your judgment the system up to date is perfect? — A. No, I do not think you can take any such thing, because we are human. [Mr. E. H. Scammell.l 992 SPECIAL COMMITTEE—C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Being human, then, I fancy you can see some things that might be remedied. What would you suggest ? — A, Immediately we see a direction in which a matter can be remedied we set about remedying it. Q. Then at the present time there is nothing you can suggest to this Committee at all in the way of remedying present conditions? — A. I have no suggestions to make along that line. Mr. Pardee: You said this morning, Mr. Chairman, that we would decide later on as to what we would do either in the way of making our report in toto on returned soldiers, or simply putting in the first part of our report. If that is so I will not go on with the examination of Mr. Scammell. I have a great deal I want to ask him about on other matters, but perhaps we might let that stand until next week, and in the meantime decide what we will finally do. The Chairman: I think there is no doubt but what the Eeference directs and empowers us to enquire, not merely regarding disabled men, but as to the whole question of demobilization. However, for purposes of concentration of the evidence, we have hitherto been dealing only with disabled men, and if it seems desirable we might make an interim report on that matter, inasmuch as Parliament probably %70uld prefer to deal with the subject immediately- The larger question, as to what *] all be done to provide employment, and to distribute the returned soldiers when ■demobilization takes place at the end of the war, is one which I think would require vory considerable examination by this Committee, and an amount of evidence from men capable of speaking on that subject in different parts of Canada., If we wait until we get all that secondary evidence in our hands before making a report, Parlia- ment would have adjourned before the report was ready. My suggestion is to make a report on the first phase of the question while Parliament is sitting, and then to go on with our sessions, and if the Committee felt it was wise to do so, to get permission from the House to continue after Parliament has risen, the enquiry into the other greater subject if it were thought desirable. Examination of Mr. Scammell resumed: By Mr. Pardee : Q. How many returned soldiers have you now, Mr. Scammell, that would be competent to take up permanent occupation. Do you know at all or can you give me any idea as to the number? — A. I should say a large majority of them. Q. Are any of those men fit to go upon the land? — A- That I cannot say, but in all probability a considerable proportion, if they evince any desire to do so. Q. Have many of them evinced any such desire? — A. Not at present. Q. Have many of them been asked to do so? — A. I cannot say that they have, except in the West. Q. Is there a very considerable percentage of men who could take up market gardening? — A. I see no reason why they should not do so. Q. You have made no inquiries along those lines amongst them? — A- Not Dersonally. Q. Has anybody done so? — A. Enquiry is made in connection with the Voca- tional Classes that are held in the Institutions, and a number of men are taking training on those lines. Q. And when these inquiries are made is there any classification at all of the men who desire to take up these pursuits? — A. Not more than the classification of their enrollment. Q. What do you mean by that?— A. Their enrolment in the various classes, such as certain men who are to take up market gardening, certain men who are to [Mr. E. H. Scammell.! RECEPTION, TREATMEXT AND RE-EDUCATION 993 take up carpentry, certain men who are to take up motor engineering, and certain men Avho are to engasjc- in other phases of the work. Q. And at that they are let drop? — That is as much as you get as to what they desire to do or what will ultimately become of them? — A- Yes, sir. Q. Would it not appear to you that a classification might be made of these men as they go along in their various occupations to find out whether or not they propose to carry out to a finality? — A. It would not be of very much value. Q. Why not?— A Because the condition of a man while he is in Hospital renders him changeable. Q. Then when are we to reach the stage where we might get something definite? — A. When the man is approaching his discharge. Q. Is any classification made of him then? — A. Yes, sir. The information which is sent to the employment Commission contains particulars as to the classes the man has been taking so that they may have an idea what his preference is when they are looking for employment on his behalf. Q. That man then goes to the Provincial Commission ? — A. That man goes to the Secretary of the I'rovincial Commission or the local committee of the Provincial Commission. Q. Then he is placed? — A. Then he is placed. Q. There is no one employed by the Commission whose particular duty it is to see whether these men make good or otherwise? — A. It is very difficult to keep tab on the men, but if a man goes back to the Provincial Commission they endeavour to place him in a situation that will satisfy him. The man that does not come back apparently is satisfied. By Air. Ross {Middlesex) : Q. At some stage in this man's handling by the Commission is there not a list of questions submitted to him, and is not one of those questions as to what occupation he has pursued in the past, or what occupation he desires to pursue in the future? — A. That question is asked him on his arrival. Q. Every man? — A. Yes. Q. That is what I was trying to get at. Have you tabulated in any way the answers to those questions so that you can give us the number of men. You said about 150 was the limit? — A. If it has not been tabulated it is being done, based on the report made in Quebec; whether it is completed or not I cannot say. Q. But you are quite within the mark nevertheless? — A. I think perhaps I might add that the Xational Service Commission is now making a survey of the men overseas. Cards are being sent over for that purpose. Q. For what purpose? — A. In order to ascertain the previous occupatins and the preference of the men who are at present serving, that statistics may be obtained before demobilization. By the Chairman: Q. Have you seen this list of forty individual ca*es in the evidence? — A. It was handed to me this morning. Q. Would you be good enough to have that examined from the point of view of the ^Military Hospitals Commission, and a brief note prepared with respect to each case? — A. I have already put tliat in hand this afternoon. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What have you to say as to the gratuity system? Are you in favour of the gratuity system, or do you think some system of pension should be made for these men? — A. I think some system of pension should be arranged. Q. You are not in favour of a gratuity? — A. Its working has been very unsatis- factory. 28277—63 [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] 994 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. You have personal knowledge of that? — A. Again and again. Q. And as one having tliat knowledge, you are thrown directly in contact with these men. You would advise a change from gratuity to pension? — A. Yes, even though the pension be a small one. I would sooner give a man a pension of $8 a month for six months, than I would give him a gratuity of $50. Q. Why? Would he spend the $50 all at once? — A. As a rule. $8 a month would be something coming in. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. In regard to soldiers that are put in civilian hospitals, are they generally put in a ward by themselves ? — A. They are generally put in public wards. Q. In some cases are they put in with undesirable company? Take the case of the man who was found between two alien enemies for instance, would it not be better to have those men all by themselves, in a ward by themselves, even if it were a general ward? Could that not be arranged? — A. Not when only two or three are in a hospital. Q. Are there as few as that? — A. We have very few in the General Hospitals. Q. It could be arranged to give them a room by themselves? — A. I did not know any complaint had come in on that score. Q. Another matter, do yovl arrange with all your convalescent homes that there shall be a resident physician during all the time? — A. All the homes except the very little ones. Q. How small? — A. We have some as small as twenty-five. It is quite unnecessary to have a resident physician for such a home. Q. It has been complained that men returned to homes, and there was no physician, and they suffered from lack of medical treatment? — A. A physician visits those homes every day. Q. So that you say that complaint is entirely unfounded? — A. Quite unfounded. Q. Will you look into the fact and see if returned soldiers have been put in the position I speak of ?■ -A. I should be much obliged if you would give me the data so that I can look it up. Mr. Eoss : I will give it to you. Witness discharged. Following documents were then filed and ordered to be printed in the record: — EXHIBIT 4. P.C. No. 976. Privy Council Canada. Certified copy of a Report of the Committee of the Privy Council, approved hy Hi» Excellency the Governor General, on the 12th April, 1917. The Committee of the Privy Council have had before them a report, dated 7th April, 1917, from the President of the Military Hospitals Commission, submitting as follows : — In the application of the powers granted by the Order-in-Council of 29th June, 1916, (P.C. 1472), several matters have arisen which make if necessary to modify and extend these powers. In clauses 2 and 6, payment of subsistence allowance is provided for men under- going vocational training, where such men are living at their own homes or in lodgings, at 60 cents per day. Owing to the largely increased cost of living it has been found impossible in some cases to procure board and lodging, especially in Western Canada, at this rate. Very strong representations have been received by the Commission that [Mr. E. H. Scammell.] RECEPT10y\ TREATMENT AND RE-EDl'CATION 995 $1.00 per day is the lowest amount upon which it is possible for a man to procure board, lodging and laundry. An omission was made in the last Order-in-Council in consequence of which single men were not granted $8.00 per month in the same way as married men. Several cases have arisen where men with a disability enlisted. On discharge from the Service it was found that this disability had been aggravated. Pension however, is only based upon the aggravation. It has been found that this aggravation some- times prevents a man from returning to his previous occupation. If a minimum allow- ance is fixed, such men may be re-educated. Clauses 7 and 8 provide for payment to a widowed mother and to the parents of a man undergoing vocational training when such payments are necessary. No provision is made for cases where the widowed mother or other relatives of the soldier have been receiving assigned pay from him, or are proved to be wholly or partially dependent upon him, but where separation allowance has not been given; nor for cases where the widowed mother or other relatives, subsequent to a soldier's retiirn to Canada, become dependent upon him. The attention of the Commission has been drawn by the Department of the Naval Service to the fact that no provision has been made for giving vocational training to officers and men of the Canadian Naval Service and its reserve force, i.e.. The Royal Naval Canadian Volunteer Reserve, and the Royal Naval Canadian Volunteer Reserve, (Overseas Division.) It has been pointed out that the officers and men of those forces are equally upon service as the officers and men of the Canadian Expeditionary Force, and the Commission has been asked by the Department of the Naval Service to submit an amending Order-in-Council so as officially to include them. It has been further pointed out that a large number of Canadians are serving in the Royal Naval Air Service, the Royal Flying Corps and other Imperial Forces, who should also be included The Minister therefore recommends that the scale of pay and allowances for men undertaking vocational training, after their military pay has stopped, (set forth in Order-in-Council, P.O. 1472, of 29th June, 1916) be cancelled, and that the following be substituted therefor: (1) Single men, " living in," free board and washing, plus $8.00 per month. Where the total amount received by way of pension and this allowance is less than $16.00 per month, an additional allowance shall be granted, so that the minimimi amount receivable shall be $16.00 per month in addition to free board and washing. (2) Single men, "living out," $8.00 per month, plus $1.00 per day subsistence allowance. Where the total amount received by way of pension and these allowances is less than $46.00 per month, an additional allowance shall be granted, so that the minimum amount receivable shall be $46.00 per month. (3) ^larried men, " living in," free board and washing, plus $8.00 per month, with the following additions: (A) For wife having no children, $35.00 per month, less pension of husband. (B) Wife and one child — (a) If the child is under the maximum age and over 10 years of age $42.50 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension regulations. (b) If the child is under 10 and over 5 years of age $39.50 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension, regulations. (c) If the child is under 5 years of age, $38.00 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension regulations. (C) Wife and two children — (a) If both children are between ages of 10 and the maxim\im age, or if one is between 10 and the maximum age, or if one is between 10 and the 28277— 63i 996 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETUh'NED SOLDIERS maximum age and the other between 5 and 10, $47.00 per month, less pen- sion of husband and allowances for children under the Pension regulations. (b) If both between 5 and 10, $42.00 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension regulations. (c) If one is between 5 and 10 and the other 5 years old qr less, $42.50 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension regulations. (d) If both are under 5 years of age, $41.00 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension regulations- (D) Wife and three children — (a) If all three children are between the ages of 10 and the maximum age, or if two are between 10 and the maximum age and the third under 10, or if one is between 10 and the maximum age and two between 5 and 10, $50.00 per month, less pension of husband and allowance for children under the Pension regulations. (b) If all three are between the ages of 5 and 10, or if two are between the ages of 5 and 10 and the third younger, or if one is between the ages of 5 and 10 and two are younger, $45.50 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension regulations. (c) If all three are under 5 years of age, $44.00 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension regulations. {E) Wife and four children — (a) If one child is between 10 and the maximum age, and a second child between 5 and the maximum age, no matter what be the ages of the other two, $53.00 per month less pension if husband and allowances for children under the Pension regulations. (b) If one or more children are between 5 and 10 and the others younger, $48.50 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension regulations. (c) If all four are under 5 years of age, $47.00 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension regulations. (F) Wife and five children — (a) If one child is between 10 and the maximum age, and a second child between 5 and 10, no matter what be the ages of "the other children, the maximum allowance may be given, which is $55.00 per month, less pension of / husband and allowances for children under the Pension regulations. (b) If one or- more children are between 5 and 10 and others younger, $51.50 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension regulations. (c) If all the children are under 5 years of age, $50.00 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension regu- lations. (G) Wife and six children — (a) If one child is between 10 and the maximiim age, and a second child between 5 and the maximum age, no matter what be the ages of the others, the maximum allowance may be given, which is $55.00 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension regulations. (b) If one or several children arc between 5 and 10 and others younger, $54.50 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension regulations. (c) If all children arc under 5 years oi age, $53.00 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension regulations. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 997 (H) Wife with 7 or more children under the maximum age, no matter what be their ages, may be given the maximum allowance of $55.00 per month, less pension of husband and allowances for children under the Pension regulations. Note. — In all the foregoing cases, payment of allowances for the wife and children of a man undergoing vocational training will be made direct to the wife, unless other- wise deemed advisable by the Commission in individual cases. 4. Married men living in their own homes, $1.00 per day extra. 5. A widowed mother, if she be dependent entirely for support on an unmarried son who is receiving vocational training, and if the son made an assignment of his pay to his mother and also arranged for her to receive Separation Allowance during the time he was in service, may be paid on the same scale as the wife of a married man with no children. 6. A widowed mother, or a mother who is not widowed, if she be dependent entirely or partially on an unmarried son who is receiving vocational training, and if the son made an assignment of his pay to his mother, or can prove to the satisfaction of the Military Hospitals Commission that he has regularly sent a portion of his pay to his mother; or a sister or other dependents, if the soldier who is receiving vocational training made an assignment of his pay to her or to them or can prove to the satis- faction of the ^lilitary Hospitals Commission that he has regularly sent a portion of his pay to her or to them, the said mother, sister or other dependent, may be paid an amount equal to the assignment made or payment sent by the soldier, provided that such amount shall not exceed the amount which would be paid under the authority of this Order-in-Council to the wife of a married man without children. 7. The parents of a man undergoing vocational training, if both are old and incapable of work, and if they are entirely or partially dependent on the son in question, may be paid on the same scale as the wife of a married man with no children. 8. Widower's children. — The guardian of a widower's children who are under the maximum age shall be paid the following rates: — (a) One child— $10.00 per month. (b) Two children— $17.50 per month. (c) Three children— $22.00 per month. (d) More than three children — $3.00 per month for each child in excess of three with a maximum payment of $35.00 per month. 9. When a child reaches the age of 5 or 10 or the maximum age between the first of the month and the last day of the month, the birthday shall be regarded as on the last day of the month. 10. Payments under these regulations shall be continued for one month after the completion of vocational training, whether the man has secured employment or not. 11. In the preceding clauses, wherever the term " maximum age " occurs, it means J6 years old in the case of a son and 17 years old in the case of a daughter. 12. The provision of this Order-in-Council shall apply to all members of His Majesty's Naval, Military and Auxiliary Forces, who were bona fide residents in Canada at the outbreak of the present war, who are unable to return to their previous occupations by reason of their disability incurred on service in the present war. 13. The provisions of this Order-in-Council shall be operative from 1st April, 1917. The Connuittee concur in the foregoing recommendation and submit the same for approval. (Signed) RODOLPHE BOUDREAU, Clerk of the Privy Council 998 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS BOARD OF PENSION COMMISSIONERS FOR CANADA. Insanity Cases on List of Pensioners. 24th February, 1917. Classification. Pensioncis. I'eicentagro of Total. Contracted before enlistment and aggravated by service 14 34 Contracted in Canada while in service 7 17 Contracted in England while in service 6 15 Contracted in France while in sei'vice 14 34 41 • 100 Cause of Insanity. Number. Percentage. Syphilis 6 15 Alcoholism 1 2 Shell-shock 5 13 Pneumonia 2 4 Not known 27 66 41 100 BOARD OF PENSION COMMISSIONERS FOR CANADA. Tubercular Cases on List of Pensioners. 24th February, 1917. Classification. Pensioners. Percentage of Total. Contracted before enlistment and aggravated by service 169 37 Contracted in Canada while in service 138 30 'Contracted in England while in service 74 16 Contracted in France while in service 70 16 Not known where contracted 6 1 457 100 Mr. Samuel Allan Armstrong, called, sworn and examined: By the Chairman: Q. What position do you occupy in respect to the Hospitals Commision? — A. Director. Q. How long have you occupied that position? — A. Since the ISth December, 1916. Q. What were you doing before that? — A. Assistant Provincial Secretary of the Province of Ontario. Q. What do your duties consist of? — A. I have general supervision of the manage- ment of the work of the Commission. [Mr. S. A. Armstrong.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 999 Q. Are you most of the time in Ottawa or on the road? — A. Probably half and half. Q. What were your duties as Assistant Provincial Secretary? — A. I had charge of all the Provincial Hospitals in Ontario. The Provincial Secretary's Department controls all public institutions, not only hospitals for the insane and reformatories, but also the general inspection of all general hospitals, County houses of refuge, and other charitable organizations. Practically all the time I was with the Provincial Government my work was in connection with not only the operation of these public institutions, but very largely in connection with the construction of them, the engineer- ing part of it and the organization generally. Q. You have been here while Mr. Scammell was giving his evidence, and there are some features of Mr. Scammell's evidence that require amplification. Taking up first of all the matter of convalescent cases, regular cases, what recent enlargement of your accommodation throughout the country has been undertaken, taking first the regular convalescent cases? — A. I do not know just what you mean about the recent enlarge- ment. Q. In what respects and in what places have you increased the available number of beds for returned convalescent patients during the last few months? — A. If we take it by Provinces, starting at Nova Scotia, we have the new hospital at Camp Hill, Halifax, now in course of erection, having accommodation for 300 men. Q. Are you erecting a new building? — A. A new building entirely. Q. What character? — A. Frame construction. It is of a semi-permanent char- acter, concrete foundation and frame superstructure, with the intention ultimately of bricking it in as a brick veneor building and making it permanent. Q. Can it be used in winter? — A. Yes, all the buildings we put up even of a most temporary character are suitable for winter use. Q. Is that for the convalescents belonging to the Maritime Provinces? — A. That covers the Province of Nova Scotia. Q. Is it for Nova Scotia cases, or cases in transit? — A. Well, very rarelj' a case in transit would have to remain there, because a bed case is put on a hospital train and passed right through to destination ; so that we consider Camp Hill will be used for Provincial cases. One section of the building with 150 beds is provided with full hospital equipment. The other section is rather more of a convalescent character. Q. You intend therefore to have provision for active cases, as well as conval- escent? — A. Yes, should active cases arise. Q. But you keep them separate? — A. Yes; in addition to that, for active treatment cases, we have at pier No. 2 in Halifax, the discharge depot, splendid accommodation there for probably 450 beds. Q. In operation at the present time? — A. Just about in operation. We have been delayed in getting the equipment in there. Q. Is the hospital really on the pier?— A. I think so. I have not seen that myself, I have not been to Halifax, but I understand it is one of the immigration buildings, and I presume it is the same as the other buildings of that character. We have also taken over the Presbyterian college near Piuehall, which consists of two buildings, and is in operation now, and will have accommodation for 150 beds. A building for vocational purposes will also be erected. In the meantime there is sufficient accommodation for class rooms in the buildings that are there. In Sydney we have taken over the Moxham Home, which has accommodation foi approximately 100 beds, and ample room for extension. Q. I want to know more alxmt the more recent developments?— A. These cases I am giving you are all recent. Q. These have not been referred to in the evidence yet?— A. I do not think so. What I am giving you is all recent. • [Mr. S. A. Armstrong.] 1000 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.—RETriiSED SOLDIERS By Mr. Pardee : Q. How long- since?— A. Within the past three months. In fact, the three places I am giving you now are within the last two months. The Halifax pier has been in operation for some little time, although it is really only now being completed. We do not consider discharge depots in calculating our accommodation, because they are only used for men in transit, and the men are only there for three or four days, depending on their classification. Then in New Brunswick the Armouries were converted into a discharge depot with accommodation for 450 beds. Q. Where is that? — A. St. John, New Brunswick. Q. That is quite recent?— A. That is quite recent. At the time it was decided to convert the Armouries into a discharge depot information had been received from Eng- land which led the commission to believe it would be necessary to create such an institu- tion in St. John. From the information sent over since that building has been in operation, it would appear that we were wrong in our judgment or the information we had received, and I think a change will probably- be made in that building whereby the centre portion will not be used for hospital purposes, but a side wing only. General Jones informs me that he recently made an inspection of it, and it will make excellent accommodation for hospital purposes. The Government House at Fredericton is about to be taken over. Negotiations have been under way in connection with that building for a long time, but it was occupied by the militia, and as they are about to vacate it we are about taking it over, and arrangements will be made to convert it into a convalescent home. We expect to provide there approximately 150 beds. I am not dealing with the tubercular situation yet. By the Chairman: Q. Deal with the convalescent situation? — A. There has been nO change in the I)rovince of Quebec other than the alterations which are now under way in the discharge depot. The commission has secured from the Immigration Department the two upper floors of that building, and it is now being converted into wards with isolation sections for tubercular cases and for the insane; so that while these men are held there they will be completely isolated from the rest of the men. We have accoromodation there for between 800 and 1,000 men. Q. How soon? — A. We are using it all the time now, but the alterations were just started this last week. Q. How soon do you expect to have accommodation there for 1,000 men? — A. In possibly a month's time. In the meantime we have ample accommodation there for our present requirements. This is in anticipation of the arrival of the boats at Que- bec during the summer. There is nothing further in the province of Quebec. At the present time we appear to have ample accommodation for convalescents in that province, bvit we have in the meantime been studying the situation and making a fairly extensive survey of the province with a view to ascertaining what should be done. Q. Is there any immediate intention of having a convalescent home outside the city of Montreal? — A. That is one of the matters under consideration at the present time. My personal view is that there is only one place in Quebec for that, and that is adjoining the Macdonald College, where we can take advantage of the entire teaching staff. The college authorities cannot let us have any of their land, and it may be necessary for us to acquire land and erect liospital buildings, utilizing if pos- sible, the college plant and equipment for vocational training; and, perhaps, in that atmosphere we could hope to have more of the men go on the land than by utilizing city technical schools elsewhere or putting in our own technical training equipment. Q. That has not been decided on? — A. Nothing has been decided on, but as a matter of fact we have been making extensive investigations to learn as to whether it will be necessary to acquire buildings either by lease or otherwise. [Mr. S. A. Armstrong.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1001 Q. And erect? — A. And erect, yes. In the province of Ontario, Queens Military Convalescent Hospital is almost immediately ready for occupancy. We have taken over from Queens University Grant Hall and the Arts Building, with accommodation for about, we expect, 450 men, with full operating equipment for surgical operations, and electrical apparatus for electric treatment. Both the Hotel Dieu and the Gen- eral Hospital in Kingston will be used for major surgical operations. We have just taken over the Pickering College at i>[ewmarket; it has been donated by the Society of Friends. This institution will be converted into a hospital for the insane, and all insane will be segregated at that point. Q. Those that you keep at Coboiirg? — A. There are only a very few cases at Cobourg, and they are not serious cases; they are rather more the result of shell-shock. We have a large number of cases in the provincial institutions, and the accommoda- tion is entirely too crowded in these places at present, so that it has been decided that we should have our own institution in Ontario for them. Q. A soldiers' insane asylum, and take the cases from the provincial institutions? — A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. How many will that institution accommodate? — A. About 150, that is at Newmarket. We propose increasing the accommodation at Cobourg by 300 beds, giving us an ultimate accommodation of 450 exclusively for the treatment of shell shock. We have a splendid staft" and a splendid equipment, ample to take care of the increased accommodation. The Hospital for the Insane at Whitby, a portion of which is in course of construction, there are eight cottages with accommodation of about between 50 and 60 beds each, which are now being occupied by returned men. By Mr. Pardee: Q. On the cottage plan? — A. With the exception that there is an infirmary built ready for occupation with 100 beds. Whitby is probably the most modern institution of its kind on the continent and it will be thoroughly equipped for the care of the convalescent. By the Chairman: Q. How many do you expect to be able to handle there? — A. We are arranging now to erect buildings for 800 beds. When the remaining nine buildings which the province has in course of erection — they will be occupied as completed — perhaps it will be six to eight months before the entire plant is ultimately completed — we will have accommodation for 1,200 beds, and with the 800 additional we will have an ultimate total accommodation for 1,500 men at Whitby. By Mr. Pardee: Q. That is final? — A. That will be final, but we have any amount of room for expansion, and with the type of temporary building we put up for 150 beds, we ca!i put them up in six weeks. The old Toronto General Hospital, just now being used as a military hospital, may be taken over by the Connnission. That has accommoda- tion for anywhere between 500 and 750 beds. That arrangement may be effected next week. Q. Let me ask you one thing there. Taking the Toronto General Hospital will not enlarge your accommodation. That hospital is already being used? — A. Not by us, that is being used by C.E.F. camp cases. Q. What will then become of the camp cases? — A. They tell me we will require to set apart 150 to 200 beds at the most for those men. That population is gradually diminishing, and as they go into camp they will t-iike many of them into the camp [Mr. S. A. Armstrong.] 1002 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— G.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS hospitals. The new orthopaedic hospital in North Toronto is just ready for occupa- tion, that is the main building. The other two units we are erecting in connection with it, the Booth Memorial, will be ready in less than a month's time. By the Chairman: Q. Will the Booth Memorial be entirely for orthopaedic cases?— A. Yes, sir. That will give us a total accommodation of 450 beds. We have another institution that we have been negotiating for at Burlington. Negotiations fell through. It is possible that we will take steps to expropriate it, that is the Brant Hotel, which will give accommodation for 350 beds. There is another building, the Massey-Treble property known as Euclid Hall, in the city of Toronto, which will be open in ten days' time, with accommodation for 30 beds, and will care for the paralytic and incur- able cases, spine cases. The census only shows 26 cases of this kind. We will have accommodation in this building for between 30 and 40. The Ontario Eeformatory at Guelph has now been taken over, the negotiations being completed by the Commis- sion last week We propose erecting 300 beds there which will give us a total accommo- dation of 800 beds. This property consists of 850 acres of land with modern dairy stables, creamery, a very large greenhouse which has just been built, 150 by 50 feet, machine shops, woodworking shops, woollen mills, and the entire farm plant. The intention is to concentrate on the more advanced educational work at this point, and if possible to utilize the staff of the Agricultural College, which is less than a mile away, in the training of these men in agricultural pursuits. It is expected that with the dairy barn, and with the greenhouse, and the farm and garden generally, we will be able to induce the men to take up the agricultural side of the work. There are facilities there for work of that character which we cannot duplicate anywhere in Canada. We may be rather sanguine, but we hope we will get results. That will provide us in the Province of Ontario with a total accommodation of between 3,500 and 4,000 additional. Q. By what time ?— A. Well, in that I am including the 600 beds for Whitby. If we take them off and add the 500 Toronto Base Hospital, it gives us 3,400 beds which are almost immediately ready. Q. Practically 3,500 beds in May?— A. Yes, sir. Q. How many will you have in June, July or August^ — A. These are really all coming in now. The only one there is any doubt about in getting early possession of is Brant and the three units we propose putting up at Cobourg, Whitby and Guelph, but in six weeks we will put these up and have them ready quite easily in August. Q, What new arrangements have you in the West? — A. I do not know whether you know about the old Agricultural College property; has that been mentioned to your Committee as yet ? Q. Yes. — A. That is not occupied yet, but we expect next week, or the week after that, if the equipment is there, that we will be able to occupy the entire place which will give us accommodation for 750 beds. Q. In May you expect to have 750 beds in Winnipeg? — A. Yes, and in addition to the dormitories and other building is to be included the large machinery building which is being equipped with all necessary machinery and equipment for vocational training; there are also 100 acres of land, which we have obtained from the Manitoba Government, together with barns and other equipment. The farm work for the time is being done under the direction of the Head of the Brandon Experimental Fartn. Winnipeg will probably be made the vocational Training Centre for the whole of the Province of Manitoba; we cannot get the same facilities for vocational training at the new Agricultural College of Manitoba that we can get either in Saskatchewan, Alberta or Ontario, for practical instruction. In Alberta there is the Ross Park School at Moosejaw which institution has present accommodation for 240 beds ; we were erecting a dining room and kitchen building there as well as an Infirmary building for 150 [Mr. S. A. Armstrong.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AXD RE-EDUCATION 1003 more beds, making a total of 390. There is the Y.^I.C.A. building at Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, that gives acommodation for, say, 150 or IGO. In Alberta we have just taken over the Alberta College at Edmonton, which gives accommodation for 450 beds. Q. What is your present total accommodation in the Prairie provinces? — A. In Alberta 487, in Saskatchewan, 192, 34G in Manitoba, and 525 in British Columbia. Q. Approximately you have 1,500 beds in the western provinces at the present time? — A. Yes. Q. What increase do you expect in the course of one, two or three months? — A. With the accommodation we have laid out, for these provinces we have ample. Q. But approximately what addition will be made in the next three months? — A. That is a very difficult question to answer. Q. Can you add 1,000 beds within the next three months to that accommodation if necessary ? — A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Saskatchewan seems to have a very small number of beds? — A. Yes, but we have ample. I am unable to understand it, but only just this week I had a letter from the O.C. of the unit saying that with the accommodation we have laid out we have ample to last us for some time, and that we need not bother about further Saskatchewan accommodation. By the Chairman: Q. Yet you have only 192 beds? — A. There are more than that, because we have the Ross Park Hospital, Moosejaw, coming in with 390. Q. That will give you accommodation for 580? — A. Yes. In British Columbia we have just taken over the Braeniar and Langara property at Shaughnessy Heights, outside of Vancouver, where we expect to have acommodation for 450 beds. We got immediate possession of Langara with 150 beds. This was a boys' and girls' school and gives excellent acommodation. We have taken over Qualicum Inn on Victoria Island, which has accommodation for 220 beds, and we purpose erecting an addition to that property, which w'ill give us 100 additional beds. Q. The programme you have outlined shows that you are well ahead of any probable needs, insofar as you can see at the present time? — A. I think so. By Mr. Pardee : Q. Even if they come at the rate of 2,200 a month ?— A. Just before I came here this afternoon, I had a further conversation with General Jones on the subject; he doubts very much if that estimate will be reached. He thinks it will bo 1,600 a month, or less. By the Chairman r Q. Why does he think so? — A. He thinks we are wrong in our estimate of three hospital ships a month as it takes each boat five weeks to make a round trip; they cannot make two trips a month as we estimated. Q. And it is not likely that the number of boats put on that service will be in- creased? — A. Apparently not, two boats seem to be the limit, that is, hospital ships, but the troop ships may be increased so that generally we may estimate 1,600 a month. Q. Have any steps been taken in connection with utilizing some of the returning ArSerican ships for the purpose of bringing back our patients? — A. We have not any- thing to do with that, that is all controlled in the Old Country. By Mr. Pardee: Q. That is the return of all these men is controlled there, you must take as many as they send? — A. We must take what they send us. we do not have anything to do with that at all. [Mr. S. A. Armstrong.] 1004 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. Is there not a possibility, owing to America having come into the war and devoting attention to the shipping question, of an increase in the accommodation avaihible for bringing men back? — A. I do not think so; General Jones does not express that opinion. Evidently they keep these men in the hospitals as long as pos- sible to see if they can salvage them for further use overseas. At the present time I believe there are something like 14,000 Canadians in hospitals in England, and with the fighting that is now going on that number will probably be increased up to over 20,000 right away. Q. Do you not think that fact will tend to stimulate the evacuation of them in larger numbers? — A. If it does, I think we will be quite equal to the increased strain. By Mr. Pardee : Q. Do you propose to get more accommodation than you have at the present time? — A. With this accommodation I have outlined here it would look as if we could take care of the situation for some time to come. For instance in the month of March, the total discharges throughout Canada were over 1,200 so that our admissions are not going to be, if General Jones' estimate is correct, very largely in excess of our discharges, and, as the medical work gets better organized throughout the prov- inces, the number of discharges should increase. Shell-shock eases under treatment will not be discharged rapidly, because they take a long time, on an average about six m.onths. By the Chairman: Q. How will you take up the increase in accommodation in the matter of tuber- culosis and the increase in accommodation in the matter of artificial limbs? — A. The accommodation that has been provided in the Maritime Provinces looks for the time being to be sufficient to take care of the tubercular cases there. Our accom- modation i» Ontario is limited, we are alright in the Province of Quebec, and when the accommodation now being provided elsewhere is completed, we will be able to evacuate a number of men from the sanatoria in Quebec and in that way provide ample accommodation for that Province. Q. You will return the Maritime Province men to their own province? — A. Yes. Ontario is the problem at the present time. Q. From a tuberculosis point of view? — A. From a tuberculosis point of view. We cannot depend on any estimate of accommodation for men from overseas because of the camp cases that come in. Men contract the disease or it becomes aggravated apparently when they are in camp, and they come in without any knowledge on our part as to the number wcare likely to have, and it upsets our arrangements. It would seem as if we have either got to increase the accommodation at the existing sanatoria in the Province of Ontario or erect a large central institution to be operated by the Commission. There is a difference of opinion as to that and we have not yet reached a decision. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. The percentage of tuberculosis cases coming from the camps is very high in Canada. Can you account for it? — A. I do not know how to account for it. Natu- rally we would get more of these men from camps here than we would from overseas, because the t.b. cases would be weeded out before the men started overseas. Q. And in that way would be discovered? — A. Yes. By the ■Chairman : Q. You say that the question of a large central hospital for Ontario cases is un- der consideration but not yet determined? — A. Not yet determined. [Mr. S. A. Armstrong.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1005 Q. And have you ample accommodation elsewhere? — A, We have accommodation falling in at Hamilton and accommodation falling in at London. Bp Mr. Pardee: Q. Now, as to the tuberculosis situation it is, I take it, the intention of the Com- mission to come to some final conclusion forthwith? — A. Immediately, sir. There are two propositions: One to enlarge the existing sanatoria at Kingston, Hamilton and London, and possibly Freeport. But Freeport is an isolated place with none too good a water supply and only a small acreage. My personal opinion is that a large cen- tral institution is the proper thing to put up, where we could make the plant as large a? we please and have it complete throughout from beginning to end, but that is only a layman's opinion. Q. Of course, without my saying so, it is most necessary that soldiers suffering from tuberculosis should in the very first instance be taken care of? — A. Yes. I think we will tide over the immediate difficulty in a very short time, with the new accom- modation that is under way and will shortly be available. In Manitoba we will have additional accommodation at the Ninette Sanatorium. In Saskatchewan the situation is difficult. There is no local or Provincial insti- tution. One is under construction but it will be many months before it is ready for occupation. Therefore we made an arrangement to take over a school in the centre of Eegina, which has a large block of land, and we are putting up an infirmary build- ing as well as verandahs on the main building, and we will have accommodation there for 70 men. The officer in command of the unit advises me that the situation is clear- ing up, that many men who have been classified as t.b. when sent to the sanatoria are pronounced to be not at all of that class. We have also sent a large number of men to British Columbia. In probably two or three weeks' time we will have accommo- dation in our own institution in the Province of Saskatchewan for between 70 and 80 men. By the Chairman: . Q. Coming to the matter of artificial limbs, you have at the present time one artificial limb factory in Toronto, which has recently been considerably enlarged ? — Yes, sir. Q. How much has the output been increased? — \ I do not know what the out- put was at the time to which you refer. Our output now is from seven to nine limbs a week in legs. That output is being increased all the time as the men are becoming more proficient in handling the work. It was utterly impossible for us to get arti- ficial limb makers. We have tried in vain to do so in the United States. The bulk of the men who are engaged in the work are either Germans or Austrians; and we are reduced to taking on carpenters and other men who are unskilled in the making of these limbs, and training them for that purpose. Q. I have received a letter from Sergeant-Major Guilfoyle, of Calgary, who appeared before the Committee at Toronto, in which he refers to the establishment of an arti- ficial limb factory in that city. Have you any knowledge of the situation there? — A. Yes, sir, there is an artificial limb factory in Calgary that we will have a Jreport on this week. Investigation is being made as to whether the managers of the factory are prepared to undertake to make the standard limb that has been adopted by the Commission. All these factories have their own design of limb, and as the Commis- sion has to maintain these limbs, it is highly desirable that the limb should be standardized as far as possible, throughout the country. In other words, that there should be a uniform limb. Q. So that if there is a broken part, it could be readily replaced? — A. Yes, readily replaced. AVhat we are trying to do is to build up the business in Toronto to the maximum, and use it as a centre, to make arrangements with a factory in Montreal, one in Winnipeg, and one in either Calgary or Vancouver, to supply the demand at these various points. [Mr. S. A. Armstrong.] ^006 SPECIAL COMMrrTEE-C.E.F—RETinXEf) SOLDIEIif^ Q. You would have the manufacturing of limbs going on at four points? — A. Yes, if it can be arranged. We want the factory at Toronto to be the parent institu- tion where we can have the necessary equipment and have the necessary skilled men producing these limbs. to as advanced a stage as they can get them. Q. The disabled soldier has to go to the limb factory. Does that mean that a man from the Maritime Provinces has to go to Toronto? — A. Yes, but there are not many of them, sir. Q. This is regarded by the men as a hardship?— A. At the present time most of these men who come over are unfit for artificial limbs. They have to wait for a very long time to reach that state. At the end of March we had ninety-two men in Toronto who were not fit to be supplied; their stumps were not healed or their shrinkage was not complete, and they could not use the limbs. It has been suggested that these men be furnished with pegs so as to harden the callouses and thus fit them earlier for limbs. Q. Take the case of a man, for example, in Fredericton, New Brunswick, wli o requires an artificial limb. Does lie have to go to Toronto? — A. That man will have to go to Toronto at the present time, but there have been isolated cases where the man has been sent to the nearest factory to be fitted with a limb. Q. That would be a non-standardized limb? — A. A non-standardized limb. The question of arms is the biggest proposition we have to contend with. One make of arm which has been highly spoken of is the Carnes' arm. They have evidently had an excellent sales campaign carried on in England, because all the men who come out here do not want to wear anything else but the Carnes arm; consequently when they come to be fitted with what the orthopaedists consider the proper kind of arm, they want a Carnes. We have ordered about fifty -four of these arms at $200 apiece, made in the United States. It takes a month to get delivery. They are not manufactured in Canada, and I ^am afraid to reeonamend the manufacture of them, even if we should take over the patent. They have a highly complicated mechanism and require skilled workmen to produce. Q. Have the fifty-four arms you have imported given satisfaction? — A. We have not imported fifty-four. We have given an order for fifty-four, and I think there are only sixteen or eighteen delivered. Q. Have they given satisfaction? — A. It is rather early to tell. It will not be very long till we will be having trouble with breakages. Then we will have to keep duplicate parts of the limbs to make "repairs. One of our men engaged in a factory in Toronto, Caron, said to be a very high class arm maker, invented an arm called the Universal arm, said to be better than the Carnes arm. We have agreed to take over the patent if it is any good. The orthopaedists in Toronto tell me there are some mechanical objections to it which do not make it as perfect as a Carnes arm. That will remain to be demonstrated. Q. What arrangements have you made in !^^ontreal for the manufacture of arms ? A. No arrangements completed yet. Q. Have you investigated the firms that are there? — A. There is one firm there we have completed arrangements with for the manufacture of instruments. You will know the firm; Telat, I think it is. Q. Telat & Duckett, 390 Bleury street, Montreal?— A. Yes. Q. And Conrad* Martin, 36 Craig street east, Montreal? — A. I understand the other firm is the better one. Q. Both firms should be investigated? — A. My advice is that the first-mentioned firm is the better of the two. Q. I think they should both be carefully investigated? — A. We will do so. [Mr. S. A. Armstrong.] RECEPTIOX, TREATMIJXr .LY/> 'RE-EDUCATION 1007 By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. Do you not tliink it would be unwise to talvc men from Halifax to Toronto to lit them with limbs? — A. Yes, it might be. We have not had as many of those limbs as one would naturally assume we would have. Q. Why could he not be fitted in Halifax and St. John as well as Toronto? — A. It is verj- desirable that we should have at these centres of manufacture a skilled orthopfcdist, and I am advised that they have not any men in the Maritime Provinces that arc equal to the men in Montreal or Toronto. (}. That is the only stumbling block? — A. Possibly so. Q. Do you think it would be expedient at the present time to buy these legs from the United States ? — A. What we have done with regard to eases of amputation below the knoe is to enter into an arrangement with the Dominion Artificial Limb factory to produce for us the necessary limb; that is not a standardized limb. They say it is a good limb. Our orthopaedists do not recommend it, yet I believe it is giving good results. Q. Would you say a good many of those men who think they are being kept too long without artificial limbs are really in a position to be fitted? — A. I could not say. At the end of March we had 92 men in Toronto not fit to be supplied, and OS waiting to be supplied. By the Chairman: Q. How many are waiting who are fit to be supplied? — A. Thirty-eight waiting to be supplied, and there were 40 limbs under construction, they would be passed out from day to day as completed, and every day somebody would be getting a limb and getting away. Q. Your contention is that in view of the fact that the Dominion Government undertakes to keep the limbs and arms in repair that there should be a standardized leg and arm? — A. I think that is of the utmost importance, and it should be the best that could be produced. Q. On the ground that if they buy from the United States market where they have United States patents, that it might be impossible for the Dominion Govern- ment to supply the necessary repairs? — A. I cannot speak from my own knowledge of the matter, but I am advised that a committee of orthopaedists which reported on the subject were opposed to the idea of throwing this open to the diiferent manufacturers, by reason of the fact that in their competition for business they would be oifering all manner of inducements to the men, and when they would get the business that would be the end of it, and the Government having to maintain the limbs would \ilti- niately be in a bad position. Q. How long is the natural life of an artificial limb? — A. I believe the limb- makers guarantee them for three years. Q. How soon is it probable the Dominion Government would have to renew them? — A. You may have to renew at the end of six months or less. Q. You regard the constant renewal of the limb as a very important item? — A. Yes. There were 19 legs made in England which had to be repaired or re-fitted in our own factory. By the Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Breakages? — A. Sometimes. It has been stated that the arm has been broken deliberately. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. Is the arm more subject to breakage than the leg? — A. Some of the compli- cated arms are. By the Chairman: Q. Have you anything further to add? — A. Xo. [Mr. S. A. Armstrong.] 1008 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Mr. Pardee: Q. Would you suggest that there be a more direct way of dealing as between you and the medical staff than you have at the present time? — A. We are all in hopes, as the result of the arrival of General Fotheringham, that we will have in him a panacea for all ills. Q. So that you are waiting for him ? — A. Yes. Q. At the present time you do not regard the present situation as satisfactory ? — A. Not entirely so. Although the work is, I believe, assuming better shape from a medical standpoint, after all it is very largely a personal equation with the local man. Q. So that you have no comments to make until such times as Dr. Fotheringham appears on the scene? — A. No, Q. He is already in this country? — A. Yes, he is in Toronto at the present time, and I understand will be in Ottawa next week. Q. You have had very considerable experience with hospitals for the insane? The evidence given before us here is that separate and distinct hospitals should be established for insane returned soldiers outside of the provincial institutions alto- gether. What do you say as to that? — A. I do not think it would be as satisfactory as having these men placed in the provincial institutions. One reason is that there would be such complete indifference displayed by the nursing staif and the staff gener- ally, owing to the fact that the patients would develop ultimately into old chronic cases. They would not be given the same attention and consideration as I think they would if they were in their own province. You would not have enough men from the present indications to warrant such an institution in each province. Conse- quently if you segregate them at one point in, say, one province, their friends would lose sight of them entirely; they would simply be put away and that would be an end of it, and in our own work in the province we have found it of the utmost importance to keep patients as close to their friends as we can get them. Q. Would it be quite feasible to segregate them in provincial institutions? — A. Quite so. If the Dominion Government made a grant to the provincial government to erect a building, I do not think it should be saddled on the province. I think the GovernAient should make a grant to the province to segregate these men in an institu- tion by themselves, if segregation were advised. Q. Would you advise segregation? — A. No, I would not. Q. Your opinion is that insane cases ought to be along with the ordinary patients ? — A. In spite of the fact that we have been condemned for having these men in the ordinary hospitals for the insane, I adhere to the idea that it is right. Q. Now, does it strike you that there ought to be some further classification of convalescents in this way: sometimes you want accommodation, and accommodation that you have must be equally good for winter as for summer, I take it. Are there not, for instance, in the various institutions which you have described here, a good many convalescents who just want the finishing process, a month, a couple of months, three months? Could you not classify these men to such an extent that you could obtain beyond peradventure ample accommodation in the event of a large influx? — A. Oh, yes. Q. Don't you think then, or do you, that the Commission might properly take smaller places that would accommodate say from one hundred to two hundred, have them as finishing convalescent homes, and have them ready at the present time against the possibility of a tremendous return of men? — A. There is just one drawback to that, and that is the extent to which many of these men who are seemingly ready for discharge, should continue on in their vocational work so as to get a further improvement to suit themselves for outside positions. Q. Quite so? — A. And it would be not in the best interests of these men to take them away from that vocational training. On the other hand there are, no doubt, many cases who could go outside particularly during the summer time, who are not [Mr. S. A. Armstrong.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATWN 1009 dependent on vocational traininj?, providing the place was large enough that you could put the necessary organization in to handle it. Q. Would it not strike you in view of the present state of affairs that some such step ought to be taken by the Commission so as to provide against a tremendous influx and overcrowding? — A. Well, there is no indication that we are likely to get that, and with the accommodation I have mapped out today it looks as though we have quite sufficient to take care of the situation for at least the next six months. But we have available today, should we see fit to^take advantage of it, a large hotel called Minaki, near Wiiniipeg. That hotel is in the lake section with no community around it. It is an isolated place, delightful for summer, but you would experience great difficulty in getting medical men to go out there and remain in the place, and it is important that a place a hundred miles from anywhere should have a full staff. We are also considering another place in Ontario for a similar purpose during the summer, to take care of one hundred or one hundred and fifty men. Q. You said just now that in Quebec there has been no change. Are you familiar with the Grey Nuns Hospital? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you think that is a fit place? — A. I will say this, that I think that the Grey Nuns Hospital has greatly improved since the time you visited it It is being much better operated, and I do not think you would have so much occasion for criticism today as perhaps two months ago. Q. Has the medical staff been stirred up? — A. The medical staff has evidently been stirred up, in fact the entire staff has been stirred up, and the results are very much better. Col. Patch, A.D.M.S. of the A.M.C. is in charge of the medical service which is being organized and developed in an effective way. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Have internal improvements been made? — A. It is not an up-to-date place, the wards are entirely too wide to make it satisfactory for hospital purposes. There was not anything else available there. We have been offered a large building at Maison- neuve, but to go into that would involve an enormous expenditure; then you have not anything in the way of vocational training. There are a lot of things you would not have that would have to be provided. That is why we feel that the location of a building in the vicinity of Macdonald College would be better. By Hon. Mr. Ma veil: Q. What was the objection to the Cote de Liesse property? — A. The cost was enormous, and not only the cost, but it would have taken a great deal of time to com- plete it. Q. And at Ste. Anne de Bellevue you would put up hut hospitals? — A. We would put up our standard type of construction, two-story buildingjs housing 150 men each. Q. It would be less expensive, I suppose? — A. Yes, that would cost a good deal less. Witness discharged. Major John L. Todd called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. What is your position, ^fajor Todd? — A. Major, Canadian Army Medical Cx»rps. Q. And member of the Pensions Board? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Since what date? — A. 11th September. lOlG, by order in council. Q. You have had opportunity, I think Major Todd, to look over some of the evidence and, specially, some of the complaints that have been made on the part of individuals who feel that in the matter of pensions they have grievances. Can you give us any evidence that will tend to meet the criticisms that have been raised? — A. I [Major J. L. Todd.] 28277—64 1010 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS received several letters from Mr. Cloutier, and I have also read through all of the evidence. Mr. Cloutier mentioned several cases, but there are many more in the evidence which he did not mention in his letters. Q. There is a list here of 40 cases?— A. That is the point I was about to bring up, sir. When I heard there was a possibility of my being called before this Committee I went into the matter and found there were about forty cases. 1 have gone into them all and have talked the matter over with my fellow commissioners, and we felt that perhaps we had better make this proposition to you: that while we are quite willing to bring here papers referring to all these cases — and there is a large pile of them — we would prefer to do one of two things, either take each case up and write you a letter about it — I see you asked Mr. Scammell to do that for example — or else that you should send one or two of your members as a sub-committee to go through each individual case in our office in order that they might satisfy themselves of the details in each instance. Q. Would it not be better to make a combination of both of those offers, that is to ask you to take this list of 40 cases, and such that contain anything like a grievance to give in the briefest possible form the departmental reply to the allegations made, and then, if on comparing the complaint and the reply the Committee was not satisfied, a sub-committee could go to your department and take any cases that did not seem to be finally disposed of ? — A. That sounds very well. Q. If you w411 be good enough to take this list and to go through it in that way, and wherever the Pensions Board, past or present, has reviewed a case, give us the statement and then the Committee can determine whether there are any further cases it should investigate? — A. My fellow commissioners asked me further to say that we would be very glad to show the members of the Committee the operation of the office of the Board of Pension Commissioners. Q. I think that is something that would be well worth doing. In the first place. Major Todd, you had considerable experience overseas?- — -A. I went overseas, sir, in April, 1915. Q. What was the object of your stay overseas? — A. I was sent there first of all with No. 3 Canadian General Hospital Unit, and was seconded for service to the office of the Director of Medical Services. I served in connection with boards of medical officers on discharged men; then on the pensions and the claims board. Then I was sent overseas to France to study the manner in which France was returning her dis- abled soldiers to civilian life. Q. You have had considerable opportunity to see what the French Government are doing in the matter of returning their disabled soldiers to civilian life? — A. I spent about two months investigating that point, and have since kept in constant corre- spondence with M. Pierre Masse, who is rapporteur to the Chambre des Deputes on this question, and with others concerned with it in France. Q. We will be very glad to have you tell us about that? — A. In going over your evidence, and in listening to what I have heard here this morning, it struck me more than ever that similar necessities bring similar remedies.. France has had an experi- ence of nearly two years in the question which you are considering. There are none among the difficulties that have presented themselves to you but have presented them- selves to the French government, and have been met by them. I wrote a report on the French system; I think it has been sent to the members of this committee, and I think it will be the quickest way of approaching this subject if I follow the general lines of that report and make my remarks in the order in which the subjects to which they refer are mentioned in that report. The first thing is the necessity for centralization of control; the French Govern- ment have appreciated that absolutely. Various repoits have been made, and I think France will ultimately form some sort of central body for what is called the "Liquidn- [Major J. L. Todd.] RECEPTIOy, TREATMENT ASD RE-EDUCATION 1011 tiou of the war," that is to bring things back to normal. That necessity of centralized control, centralized direction, is recognized by the French as essential, but that does not mean Q. What sub-agejicies do they bring under the central body? — A. Whatever may be necessary; the first thing they say is that since the war is a temporary thing they desire to create as little permanent machinery as they possibly can for dealing with it. In other words it is desired to use existing machinery as largely as possible; for instance, do not build any asylums; the French say: "This is a civilian army, we have very few professional soldiers, our men are all citizens and as soon as the fighting is over they will become civilians again.'' The French do not look forward to estab- lishing many special homes for soldiers; they mean to have their severely disabled soldiers in civilian institutions, and tliose wlio require no supervision or constant care because of their disablements will go into families, their own families, or the families of others, where they will be maintained by the pension which they receive, a pension sufficient in amount to maintain them in decent comfort. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. The idea is that they should go to their homes and be maintained there? — A. Yes, the government giving them the money with which to maintain themselves. By the Chairman: Q. They do not want to create a class of paupers out of the war? — A. Since you have given that lead, I might as well go on with it. That is felt so strongly that the Government, with the labour unions, has actually set up a committee to consider what means can be taken in order to assure the soldiers after the war is over that they will be looked upon as men and citizens, not as pensioners. It is realized that unless the employer is watched closely he may say to the ex-soldier: "You can work for a lesser wage, because you are in receipt of a pension." The soldier is a citizen and is entitled to receive fair compensation for his labour, irrespective of the pension he may receive. To return to our discussion of the centralization of matters concerned with the return of soldiers to civilian life, and the necessity for it here in Canada: it should be insisted that centralization of control does not mean centralization of active executive power. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. ]\Iight I ask you as to the ditlerence between the pensions paid here and in France ? Does the soldier get as large a pension in France as he would in Canada ( — A. The pensions in Canada are the largest in the world. Q. How much does the average soldier get in France? — A. I could not answer that offhand. By the CJi airman: Q. I wish you would file with the Committee a statement as to the French pension for a widow, and the French pension for disablement, because the French schedule of pensions is similar to ours? — A. It is impossible to give you anything that will be of any real value for comparison; all we can say is that France has recog- nized that a man must be compensated in accordance with his disability, and that the amount of the pension must be sufticient to assure him a competence. That is true also of Enghmd. Q. Supposing that a man who is in receipt of a pension goes to another country? — A. France did not permit her pensioners to leave France without permission; an old French law provided that if a pensioner went outside France to live his pension was reduced. [Major J. L. Todd.] 2S27T— 64i 1012 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDI ER!i Q. What would France do in the case of a reservist who came from Canada, we would say, leaving a wife and family in Canada? — A. I have not heard that question discussed, but I should imagine they would simply give him the same pen- sion as they would in France. I do not know whether they are going to put into force that old law which said that pensioners who went outside of France to live should have thedr pensions reduced. Q. If you can find any information for me on that point, I should be very glad to have it, and also on the point of what would be the status of a woman in Canada who married a French reservist who has been called out to fight with his French regiment, and who is killed? — A. I shall write to Monsieur Masse to ask him for information on this point. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. What is the minimum of disability for which a French soldier gets a pension? Our minimum is 20 per cent; do you know whether in France they have a higher or a lower minimum of disability? — A, You have asked me really two or three ques- tions; the point is this, the amount of money received by French pensioners, whether in one sum or in several sums, is always proportionate to the extent of disability. Q. That is not the point upon which I want to get information. We do not grant a pension to a soldier for less than 20 per cent disability. Do they give a soldier who has been injured a pension if his disability is less than 20 per cent? — A. They compensate them — that is the essential point — no matter how low the dis- ability is, so long as disability exists. I understand your question, but I cannot answer it at the present time. Q. Can you get that information for the Committee? — A. I will try, but their pension law is, at present, under consideration. It dates back to 1831, and it may be changed in many particulars. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. You will, of course, know whether there is any difference in pensions as between officers and soldiers; are the pensions based on the rank? — A. Yes. Q. They have a similar system, in that respect, to the English system, and to ours? — A. Eank governs the amount of the pension. By the Chairman: Q. Rank and the extent of disability? — A. I think the only country in Europe where rank does not make a difference is Switzerland. You have just heard my explanation of the necessity for centralization; that, of coui-se, is my personal opinion and not that of the Pension Commissioners. There is a very great necessity for centralization of everything in connection with the returned soldier. In that connection reference might be made to a matter that has been discussed more than once; that is the desirability of establishing in Ottawa a war memorial building. In it would be placed all the records and trophies of the war; the Pension Board would necessarily occupy an important part of such a build- ing, the storage of the documents and records essential to the proper granting of Canadian war pensions would require at least twice the floor space of this room. Q. It would require to be a fireproof building? — A. It must be fireproof; it would be a terrible catastrophe were the papers now in Canadian record offices destroyed by fire. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What do these records consist of? — A. I could give you a list of the documents. By the Chairman: Q. They are the dossiers? — A. The dossiers of the soldier, all the records of his services. [Major J. L. Todd.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1013 By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. And you say these are not in a fireproof building? — A. I have not examined the building, but it does not look fireproof from the outside. Q. 1 think the Commission should adopt the most urgent measures to secure their protection? — A. It is a most essential point — the provision of a fireproof building for the proper preservation of all war records. By the Chairman: Q. That is the military and medical record of every man who has served in the Canadian Force who applies for a pension? — A. Whether he applies for a pension or not; because, if there is one thing more certain than another it is that we are going to have in the course of time claims consequent upon changes of legislation, from many men who have served and who were not granted a pension when they were discharged. In the British Imperial Service, when a man is discharged and leaves the service, his documents are preserved for a certain length of time, according to the way in which he is discharged, and then destroyed, with the exception of men who are discharged on account of pensionable disabilities. Their documents pass into the permanent custody of the Pensions Board. Our opinion as Pension Commissioners is that in Canada, since there is a possibility that every man may claim for a pension, or have a pension claim made in respect of him, the ultimate custody of the documents of men who have fought in the C.E.F. should reside in the Canadian Pensioning Board. By that means the Board would always be assured an authoritative basis for the granting of pensions and it would be responsible for the safe-keeping of documents on which it will, for many years, pay out the country's money. Q. Now, I understand that the Pensions Board are planning to act as custodian of all the documents in respect to every enlisted man? — A. I would not say " planning." We have no authority to plan, I am just expressing an opinion in regard to the matter. We keep certain of these documents, but the remainder go to the Pecords Office. Q. Then most of the documents go to the Records Office? — A. The majority of them do at the present time. Q. And you have only duplicates of them or extracts from them? — A. Extracts from them, and in one or two cases we have the originals. The documentation of per- sonal service in the C.E.F. is a long and complicated question. Another advantage which a war memorial building would afford, would be in serv- ing as a rallying point for returned men. If a central directing body, appointed to direct all matters connected with the return of our men could bo looked upon by the returning soldiers and sailors as their trustees, and if that body were housed in a war memorial building here which veterans could recognize as their own building, I think perhaps some little thing can be done to prevent our associations of former soldiers and sailors from becoming bodies with particular interests not necessarily identified with those of Canada as a whole. We would like to add our support to what has been said in preceding evidence con- cerning the immediate necessity for the drafting of definite instructions and procedure for dealing with all casualties. General Fotheringham will be connected with that work; and we should like to place every emphasis we can upon the importance of the work which he is about to carry out. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What is the work in question? — A. Dealing with a point on which you were hammering this morning, Mr. Pardee. Q. What did it have reference to? — A. The necessity for drawing things together into one hand. By the Chairman: Q. V, ould you expect to publish a handbook, or something of that kind?— A. That is a point I was going to bring out under the heading of publicity. It may be dealt [Major J. L. Todd.] 1014 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS with now. Take France, in the winter of 1915. The Frenchman is more conserva- tive than we are, and is a greater stickler for his right. He also expresses himself a little more freely than we do. At that time about 15 per cent of the men in France who ought to have prolonged treatment and vocational training took it; the remainder would not have anything to do with the training; they all wanted to go home. But when the French disabled soldiers read in the newspapers of the remarkable results accomplished with those men who had undergone vocational training, they commenced to return to the schools for disabled men and to ask for it. The advertisements to which reference has been made in preceding evidence should be most prominently displayed among Canadians, and the pamphlet to which you, Mr. Chairman, referred, should be published and widely distributed as soon as it is possible to do so. Q. And a copy sent to every man before he left the other side? — A. I think so, sir. That pamphlet should set forth the broad principles upon which the country is trying to deal with returned men. These principles are, — (1) All disabilities are to be reduced to a minimum by everything that medical science and the provision of orthopaedic appliances can do. (2) Disabled men, when it is necessary and possible, must be taught an occupation in order to make them employable. (3) Ex-soldiers, whenever it is necessary, must be assisted and aided in establishing themselves in employment. (4) Every disabled man must receive pension money in accordance with the extent of his disability. The object of the pension is, so far as can be done by the payment of money, to compensate a disabled man for his disability, and to make him the equivalent of a healthy individual; the amount of the pension ^ould, therefore, be sufficient, together with the capacity for usefulness remain- ing in him, to assure him and his family a happy, healthy existence in decent comfort. Q. Would you be in favour of continuing the pension rather than the gratuity? — A. Certainly, the larger amounts; but I think that if a man had the tip of his little finger blown off he ought to get some pension for it. Q. Some continuing pension? — A. I would not say that, sir; the loss of the tip of a little finger is trivial. Let us say it is worth about one half of one per cent. Q. It will never grow on again? — A. The healthy body is said to be the equivalent of 100 ; then one can say that the tip of a little finger is not more than one half of one per cent. Q. But inasmuch as the tip of the little finger is gone, and he is one half of one per cent below par for the rest of his life, should not the payment to him of one half of one per cent disability be continuous while he lives? — A. The point is, the amount is so small; is it worth while giving a man — let us say in this case — $2.40 a year for the rest of his life? Personally, I scarcely think so; it would be better to capitalize the amount and give it to him in a single sum. The question is a different one if the extent of the disability and the amount of the compensation is greater. If a man had a disability of, let us say, 10%, (e.g., the loss of an index finger), which would it be better for him to receive, an annuity of $48 per year for the rest of his life, or a lump sum in a single payment? The value of $48 a year to a normal man of thirty- eight, is, under present conditions, worth about $664. In ordinary cases it would scarcely be desirable to commute the payments and make a single payment of a sum approaching that amount. If, however, the disability were one of 5% and the pension awardable only $24 a year (equivalent in a man of thirty-eight, to a lump sum of $334), it is questionable whether it would be better to award a gratuity of, let us say, $200 in a lump sum, or to grant a pension so small as $24 a year. It is possible to imagine many instances in which a lump sum of $200 would be much more useful to [Major J. L. Todd.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1015 a man than $24 a year for life. Which would the average man sooner have, $24 a year for life, or a gratuity, in a single payment, of $200? The Chairman: Judging from the evidence given here, most of the men would prefer the continuing payment. Mr. Sutheuland: That would be in a case where the disability was recognized under 20 per cent? The CHAHiMAN : Yes. Mr. Sutherland: Those were men who considered there was a great injustice being done. Hon. Mr. McCurdy : The greatest complaint we have heard is from the men who are on the border line of 20 per cent. Witness: We are very much in favour of increasing the number of classes. We think there are cases of hardship under existing legislation. By the Chairman: Q. You would make ten classes instead of five? — A. Yes, we are very much in favour of it. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Have you a schedule drawn up to that effect? — A. Yes, we have. I do not know whether this is the place to introduce it. We have considered the whole ques- tion e-xtensively and carefully in order that we might make recommendations to the committee which we understand is to recommend pensions legislation. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Are the Pension Commissioners agreed as to what the schedules should be? — A. W'e are agreed for official purposes. Yes. The Chairman: It would be very easy for us to ask Major Todd to take the present pension scale as it stands, which is by twenty per cent grade, and give us its equivalent in ten per cent grades? Witness: Why not ask the question directly? I have given you the reply, and said that we have drawn it up for the committee. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. You are of opinion that would be a better grade than the other? — A. Person- ally I have urged it for a long time. By the CJi airman: Q. Would you grade it finer than ten per cent? — A. No, except the last class. I would like to see the last class run something like this : I should like to see the gratuity increased to about $200. Q. That is doubled? — A. Yes. The capitalized value of $24 a year is about $334. A man entitlei^l to a gratuity of less than $150 would receive that less sum. A man entitled to a gratuity of more than $150 would be given choice between a gratuity of $2-00 and $24 a year for life. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. In that case all the previous discharges would be reviewed? — A. I do not understand the question. Q. Where men have been discharged and gratuity paid they would be entitled to a further payment? — A. Oh, surely. Q. 1 have seen some very hard cases A. Yes. We cannot lay too much stress upon the desirability of sound medical examination [Major J. L. Todd.] 1016 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F:— RETURNED SOLDIERS at enlistment. You have threshed that out pretty well in the evidence, and I think the evidence has made it very clear. There is an absolute necessity for efficient medical examination on discharge, both for those who are discharged on account of medical unfitness and for those dis- charged for any other reason, because we are going to have men come back twenty years from now saying, " I was put out because I was an incorrigible," and so on, but I was also disabled and am therefore pensionable. The necessity for rigid medical examination of every man at his discharge is very great. By the Chairman : Q. As a protection? — A. Yes. Bj/ Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. And you will know definitely just hoAv he was at that time, and there will be no chance for evasion on his part? — A. That is it. By- the Chairman: Q. Your action now is very largely taken after a study of the errors of other nations, and what it has cost other nations to make those errors and you are therefore trying to avoid them?-^A. That is it. A matter in which the medical service is doing a great deal of good at present is in spreading a knowledge amongst medical men everywhere of new methods of treatment and of the things that have been found out during the war. Though I am an officer of the C.A.M.C, and as I heard that corps criticized a little this morning, may I say that I cannot express sufficiently my admiration of what it has done overseas both from a medical and executive point of view. It has looked after hospital organization in the fullest sense of the term. One very important point that the war has brought out is the necessity for careful, and special treatment of the various neurosis and psychosis, produced or declared by the stress of military service. I understand that this question was also alluded to in the evidence; the difficulty of getting medical men. There are just two things to do; one is, pay your medical men; the other, enforce universal national service and tell them where to work. There are only these alternatives. We are having the same difficulty in getting medical staif for the Pensions Board. There is another point on which I would like to insist; it is the great desirability of making arrangements by which — I think General Jones is taking it up — invalid Canadians may be transferred directly from hospital overseas to their own hospitals here without going through all the difficulty of being boarded at the discharge depot. In that way a man, let us say, sick at Eamsgate will have his case considered and be sent directly to the most suitable hospital in Canada, iierhaps to Whitby. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. As it is now, what course does he go through ? — A. The men are sent over here as being ready for discharge, sir. On. arriving in Canada their cases are considered at Quebec, or another discharge depot, as Mr. Scammell described to you this morning, and he is sent on from there. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Do you think that could all be done in England? — A. That is my point. Q. And done better probably? — A. With less trouble all through. Let us say with less tro'uble. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Less records to keep? — A. Less records, too. You were speaking concerning artificial limbs. I agree with everything Mr. Armstrong says. The French experience [Major J. L. Todd.] RECEPTION, TREA'niENT AXD RE-EDUCATWN 1017 is most absolutely that it is necessary to establish fii-st of all that which is the best appliances that brains can make and money buy. Then adopt that limb or appliance iind permit no others to be given. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Standardize them? — A. Yes. Artificial limbs are very much like motors. You think you have the finest in the world; but the next salesman may convince you that you have been deceived. You spoke concern inp: repairs for limbs. Each man who is dependent upon his limb or appliance should have two, one to use, and the second to use when the first is broken. If a man is dependent on his leg and his log breaks, he cannot move; he must have two. How are repairs to be made? The conclusion to which the French have come is this: if a man takes care of an artificial limb it will last for about three years. Men who wear artificial limbs will often say that theirs last for much longer than this. Let it be assumed, however, that the normal life of a limb is three years. The French proposal is that men receiving artificial appliances shall receive a sum equal to a third of its cost yearly for keeping a limb in repair. If the limb lasts for longer than three years, and does not require renewal, then the soldier retains the annual allowance as a bonus, earned by him through the. careful use which his appliance has received. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Do the French supply the soldiers with two legs? — A. They supply one at present, I think they are going to supply two. The Australians supply two. In connectioii with vocational training and functional training, I have nothing particular to say with the exception that all with experience are deeply convinced of the necessity for functional training. From a therapeutic point of view, too much stress cannot be laid upon it: — to get it into the minds of the men that they can suc- ceed even if they are disabled; to get them back again into the habit of work. Func- tional and vocational training cannot be commenced too early; it should be com- menced in the hospitals overseas. It must be co-ordinated with similar work in Canada. It may be worth while remembering that in England the widows of disabled men are being trained so that they will not be entirely dependent on their pensions. .They are being trained to be self-supporting in useful occupations. What else I have to say is mainly on the question of pensions. In reading the evidence it does not seem quite clear in the mind of everyone that the Board of Pen- sion Commissioners is merely an administrative instrument and that it has no authority in the devising of the legislation which it administers. By the Chairman: Q. You have no discretionary powers? — A. Not to change legislation, sir. Q. Supposing you found a case where the spirit of the law might allow a claim to be considered and yet where the letter of the law w'ould not permit it? — A. The Pension Commissioners look upon themselves as the trustees for the soldiers and sailors, and an applicant for a pension is always given the utmost benefit of any possible doubt. We have already asked publicly, that is through letters to the news- papers, and other agencies open to us, that every possible complaint be referred to us. Again, we look on ourselves as trustees for the soldiers, and always give the greatest possible consideration to any complaint that comes before us. But we cannot change the law. Q. You have not quite answered my question. Is there any authority, for example, of the Governor General in Council to grant a pension on your recom- mendation where you would feel that one should be given, and where under the strict letter of the law you were not permitted to do so? — A. There is no such machinery. Witness retired. Committee adjourned until Tuesday, at 10 a.m. [Major J. L. Todd.] APPENDIX TO No. 11 PROCEEDINGS Orders in Council, Statements and Other Papers re Treatment and Care of Returned Soldiers, Pensions, Soldiers' Aid Commission, and Supplementary Evidence. (Copy.) P.O. 2890. AT THE GOVERNMENT HOUSE AT OTTAWA. Thursday, the 6th day of January, 1916. PRESENT : HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS THE GOVERNOR GENERAL IN COUNCIL. His Royal Highness the Governor General in Council is pleased to order and doth hereby order and declare that the official acceptance of death of officers, war- rant officers, non-ooniniissioned officers and men of the Canadian Overseas Expedi- tionary Forces who have been reported "missing" shall be as follows: — After they have been so reported for six months. 2. The procedure to be similar to that adopted by the Army Council and to be carried out by the Canadian Record Office, London, England, and also at Ottawa in eases demanding further inquiry in Canada. 3. The modus operandi to be as under: — (a) When evidence of the death of an officer- or soldier is furnished either in a report from the enemy or in an unofficial report from an officer or soldier who has returned. to England, the Record Office, London, England, will under- take the main responsibility for the decision, but will refer the case to the D.A.A.G. at the base to state whether he has any evidence to the contrary before final acceptance of death, Army Fonn B. 2090 (b), of which a copy is attached, to be used. (h) In cases where officers and soldiers have been reported "missing" for six months, the available evidence to be collected and considered by the Record Office, London, England, and in the case of soldiers, such office will ascertain that neither it, the unit, the base, the British Red Cross, nor the next-of-kin and relatives have any information suggesting that he may still be alive. The Record Office will then finally submit the case to the base on Army Form B. 2090 (c), a copy of which is attached. Both Army Forms B. 2090 (b) and 2090 (c) to be sent to the Secretary, Militia Council, Head- quarters, Ottawa, as soon as completed. (c) In cases where the base is unable to give a definite report, the final decision as to acceptance of death for official purposes will be given by the Director of Pay and Record Services, Canadian Overseas Expeditionary Forces, as all the available evidence will have been collected by the Officer I.e. Records. (d) In cases where further inquiry has to be made of relatives or next- of-kin domiciled in Canada, the Record Office. London, England, will transmit their report to the Record Office, Militia Headquarters, Ottawa, by which latter office such further inquiries will be made and the final decision as to acceptance of death be given by the official in charge thereof. 4. In cases where an officer, non-commissioned officer, or man is reported '* missing," assigned pay to continue to be paid for a period not exceeding three months and separation allowance for a period not exceeding six months from the 1021 1022 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETVR'NED SOLDIERS date the officer, non-commissioned officer, or man was reported "missing." Pension to start from the date the assigned pay and allowance cease. For example : A man is reported missing on October 1, 1915, both assigned pay and separation allowance would continue to be paid until December 31, 1915, and separation allowance, only, up to January 31, 1916. Then, when there has been official acceptance of the death, pension would start from January 1, 1916. (Sgd.) EODOLPHE BOUDREAU, Clerh of the Privy Council. P.O. 508. AT THE GOVERNMENT HOUSE AT OTTAWA. Saturday^ the 24th day of February, 1917. PRESENT : His Excellency The Governor General in Council. His Excellency the Governor General in Council is pleased to order and it is hereby ordered that the last paragraph (4) of Order in Council P.C. 2890 passed on the 6th day of January, 1916, which reads : — "4. In cases where an Officer, non-commissioned Officer or Man is reported ' missing ' Assigned Pay to continue to be paid for a period not exceeding three months, and Separation Allowance for a period not exceeding six months from the date the Officer, non-commissioned Officer or Man was reported 'missing.' Pension to start from the date the assigned pay and allowances cease. For example — a man is reported ' missing ' on the 1st October, 1915, both Assigned Pay and Separation Allowance would continue to be paid until 31st December, 1915, and Separation Allowance only up to 31st January, 1916. Then when there has been official acceptance of the death, pension would start from 1st January, 1916." be cancelled. His Excellency the Governor General in Council is further pleased to make the following regulations governing the Issue of Pay, Allowances and Pension to or in respect of Officers, non-commissioned Officers and Men invalided killed in action, dying on Active Service or reported " missing " to be put into force forthwith, and cancelling all previous regulations on the subject in conflict therewith, and the same are hereby made and established accordingly: 1. Soldiers invalided — (a) All invalided soldiers shall receive pay and allowances until discharged from the Canadian Expeditionary Force. (h) No invalided soldier shall be discharged from the Canadian Expedi- tionary Force until a Board of Medical Officers has certified that further treat- ment or hospital care will not improve his condition, or that it is advisable that he should pass under his own control. (c) When a Board of Medical Officers has recommended discharge on account of physical unfitness, discharge shall not be carried out until a notifica- tion has been received from the Board of Pension Commissioners by the officer commanding the soldier, that a pension of an amount stated, commencing on a day fixed, will be forwarded to an address named. The said officer com- RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1023 manding shall, thereupon, complete the discharge as from the day immediately preceding the day fixed. If no pension is to be awarded, the Board of Pension Commissioners shall notify the said officer commanding and discharge, post- dated fifteen, days, shall be carried out immediately. Provided that the officer Commanding the Discharge Depot at Quebec, St. John or Halifax may carrj- discharge of a man returned from overseas when a B6ard of Medical Officers has certified that no pensionable disability exists, in which case discharge shall be post-dated fifteen days. (d) When a soldier who has served as a member of the Canadian Expe- ditionary Force and has been discharged subsequently requires treatment for a disability which is certified by a Board of Medical Officers to have been caused or aggravated by service, the Board of j\[edical Officers may recommend his re-attestation as a member of the Canadian Expeditionary Force. If such recommendation is acted upon he shall be placed on pay and allowances from the date of his re-attestation, his pension, if any, being cancelled from such date. Payment of pension covering a period subsequent to the date of re- attestation shall be deducted from his pay and allowances and shall be repaid to the Board of Pension Commissioners by the authority making such deduction. The Officer Commanding the unit in which a pensioner is re-attested shall immediately notify the Board of Pension Commissioners of the date of his re- attestation. When a pensioner has been re-attested he shall be regarded as a new ease in so far as discharge and pension are concerned, and the usual proce- dure followed. (e) The regulation under which a man discharged for pension is given thirty days' pay and allowances in advance is hereby cancelled. Soldiers Killed in action. Dying on Active Service or Eeported "Missing." (a) Without Dependents. — All Pay and Allowances shall stop from the date of death or from the date upon which the soldier was in fact " missing." (&) With Dependents. — All Pay and Allowances, except Assigned Pay and Separation Allowance, shall stop from the date of death or from the date upon which the soldier was in fact " missing " but Assigned Pay and Separation Allowance shall be paid monthly thereafter to the dependent until such time as the pension is ready for issue. The Board of Pension Commissioners shall notify the Separation Allowance and Assigned Pay Branch of the Militia Department that a pension of an amount stated, commencing on a day fixed, will be forwarded to an address named, and Assigned Pay and Separation Allowance shall cease on the day immediately preceding the day fixed. If no pension is to be awarded the Board of Pension Commissioners shall notify the said Separation Allowance and Assigned Pay Branch and Assigned Pay and Separation Allowance shall be immediately discontinued. If it is made to appear that the proofs necessary to lead to the granting of a pension are being unreasonably delayed, the Board of Pension Commissioners may direct that Assigned Pay and Separation Allowance shall stop. For the purpose of ascertaining whether Assigned Pay and Separation Allowance are to be discontinued or continued after the date of the casualty, the word "dependents" shall be taken to mean those in receipt of Separation Allowance. Pensions which may be awarded to persons respecting whom Assigned Pay or Separation Allowance has been stopped after the date of the casualty, or to whom no assigned pay or Separation Allowance has been paid, shall take effect from the date upon which tRe death occurred or from the date assumed to be the date of death for official purposes in the case of those reported " missing.'' 1024 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS In the event of a casualty with respect of a soldier without dependents nof being reported in time to stop the Assigned Pay cheque for the then current month being issued, any over payment shall be recovered whenever possible, and so also with regard to the personal pay and allowances of officers which are deposited at their credit at the Bank of Montreal, London, England. (Signed) RODOLPHE BOUDREAU, Clerl- of the Privy Council. COPY OF TELEGRAMS. LoNDOX^ November 7, 1916 From: Sir George Perley, London, England. To : The Prime Minister, Ottawa, Ont. Refering to former cables from Bruce to Militia requesting that accommodation be provided for active treatment in Canada, we are now able to forward twelve officers and three hundred men requiring further treatment. May we send them?- Others will be forwarded at intervals. LoKDOX, November IG, 1916. From: Sir George Perley, London, England. To : The Prime Minister, Ottawa, Can. The Medical Service recommends that we forward two classes of patients to Canada for active treatment. First, those who are permanently unfit for further service, and Second, those who will require six months or more active treatment, and whose ulti- mate return to the service is doubtful. It is estimated that at present there are three thousand patients in England who could be disposed of in this way, thus relieving the hospital congestion here. There are three hundred men now hoarded and ready to pro- ceed to Canada — all ambulatory cases who are permanently unfit for further service,' but who could go on passenger ships. At least half, probably more of the three thousand cases would be ambulatory. The remainder would be sent in hospital ship. Am of the opinion that course recommended is wise and hope necessary arrangements can be made in Canada. Could these not be absorbed into civil hospitals. May we send over the three hundred immediately? RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1025 Ottawa^ Xovember 18, 1916. From: The Prime Minister, Ottawa, Can. To : Sir George Perley, London, England. Following from Lougheed. Your cabie 16th; Military Hospitals Commission are making arrangements for first three hundred men, active treatment cases, hut will require at least three weeks' time to provide necessary accommodation and staff. Medical and nursing assistants accompanying soldiers should remain in Canada on account scarcity professional services here. Important we have ample notice respect- ing all shipments and specific dates when fixed, as considerable time required to secure suitable accommodation. LoxDOX, November 26, 1916. ' From: The Adjutant-General, C.E.F., London, England. To : Military Hospitals Commission, Ottawa, Can. Oneag 2057, twenty-fifth. Three hundred cases invalided to Canada: These three hundred will he sent forward next week, arriving on or ahoiit Decemher sixth. All are able to walk. Most require considerable surgical treatment. AVould suggest their being placed in civil hospitals. Sufficient ]Sredical Officers and Xursing Sisters will be sent forward with these cases to deliver them safely to their destination, but neither Medical Officers nor Nursing Sisters can be spared to remain in Canada as we urgently need these here. May we send an average of five hundred per month to Canada to be treated in hospitals there? All fit to travel without detriment to their health and all will do better in opinion of medical authorities in Canada than by remaining for pro- longed periods in hospitals in England. Ottawa^ December 5, 1916. From : President, Military Hospitals Commission, Ottawa, Can. To Sir George Perley, London, England. Can now provide for three hundred ambulatory cases. (Copy.) Ottawa, November 13, 1916. My dear Sir George, On Saturday I took up with the Prime Minister your cablegram to him of the 7th instant, in which you say you are able to forward 12 officers and 300 men requiring active treatment in Canada. As you doubtless know we have two classes of hospital in Canada, one known as the Military Hospitals administered by the Militia Department, and the other Con- valescent Hospitals administered by the Military Hospitals Commission. I have taken 28277—65 ^026 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS lip with the Director General of Medical Services of the Militia Department the accom- modation of the Military Hospitals and he informs me that these are already filled with patients. The same may be said of the Convalescent Hospitals under the Military Hospitals Commission. We have had to take over a substantial number of cases from the Militia Department, cases which under normal conditions would have entered the Military Hospitals. The Director General of Medical Services informs me this morning that he is having an extended inquiry made throughout Canada to ascertain if any accommodation can be secured in civilian hospitals. He and I are very doubtful if any .space can be furnished in this direction in Canada. The Militia Department and the Military Hospitals Commission have already handed over to the civilian hospitals a number of cases that cannot be handled advantageously in the Government institutions. If the cases referred to in your cablegram are intended to be the first of cases to be sent out to Canada requiring active treatment and as recommended by Colonel Bruce in his report and also in his cablegram to the Militia Department, we should have ample notice of what the policy of the Overseas Administration of the Canadian Forces will be in this matter. Hospitals will have to be erected and officered, provision will have to be made for hospital cars and trains. In this latter respect we are practically without any. I have already taken the subject up with the Minister of Railways and am hopeful that ere long we may have several hospital cars fitted up. From enquiry I am also informed that it will be a difficult task to properly officer large hospitals owing to the number of Canadian doctors and nurses now at the front. On the approach of winter it is rather an unfortunate time to enter on a policy of sending out a great number of cases for active treatment if proper treatment can be given such cases in England. The main thing to consider at the moment is what your Overseas policy is to be on this question. If you find it is indispensable to do this please cable me as to what the requirements will actually be and I shall take the subject up with all parties inter- ested and personally, with those associated with me, contribute in any way we can to meet the situation. We for some time have been in treaty with the Ontario Government to take over their cottage asylum institution now under construction at Whitby, Ontario. This is being constructed in three units with accommodation of approximatively six hundred to a unit. One unit will be completed about the end of the year. The second unit in about six months. We had intended this chiefly for our convalescent work which is of course quite distinct from the active treatment cases referred to in your cable. We are exceptionally fortunate in securing the property. Up to the present time we have found that to secure accommodation for convalescent cases alone has been rather a difficult problem, hence, in my judgment, if we have to enter upon active treatment cases we have to specially build. Believe me. Yours faithfully, (Sgd.) JAMES A. LOUGHEED, Fresideni The Hon. Sir George Perley, K.C.M.C, Overseas Minister of Militia, Canadian High Commissioner's Office, London, England. I RECEPTION, TREATMENT AXD RE-EDUCATION 1027 Ottawa, April 18, 1917. SiH, — The secretary has passed your letter of the IGth April to me for attention. 2. I have looked up page 677 of the Proceedings ot the Committee referred to by you. I may say that to compile the figures which the chairman requested would take a clerk working constantly about ten days to a fortnight. 3. It would not be so difficult to give' you the number of tubercular patients who have, had their destinations in Ontario and who have returned from overseas, and doubtless the Assistant Director of Hedical Services of Military District Xo. 2 would be able to give you the number of men invalided from camps, etc., in his district from this cause. 4. The only figures which are immediately available arc those applicable to the present time, and I may say for your information that on the 8th instant there were in sanitaria in M. D. 2, 147 in-patients and 28 out-patients. Of the former, 85 have been overseas and 62 have not, and of these 23 overseas and 9 camp men are in Freeport sanatorium, Kitchener, which is situated in M. D. 1, but which is attached to M. D. 2 ("D" Unit, M.H.C.C.), for administrative purposes. Of the latter, 26 have been overseas and 2 have not. I am. Yours faithfully, WM. T. MOOKE, Secy, to Medical Superintendent. V. Cloutier, Esq., Clerh of the Committee on Returned Soldiers, House of Commons, Ottawa. A Statement of the Number of Men Discharged from the Strength of Military District Xo. 2 from the Commencement of the War to March 31, 1917. (Submitted by Major-General W. A. Logic, M. D. Xo. 2.) Approximate number of discharges from 1st Contingent 1,106 Number of discharges from 1st Contingent to March 31, 1917, classified as under — Not likely to be efficient 938 Medically unfit 9,329 Absentees struck off 2,940 Under age 491 By puichase 135 Misconduct, undesirable 822 To accept commissions 260 Special cases 154 Deaths 105 Miscellaneous 528 Total 16,808 In addition to the above there were 486 men discharged from units that came from other military districts and were stationed at Camp Borden during the summer of 1916. 2S277— 65i 1028 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Statement of the Units of the C.E.F. that have left this District since the 1st Con- tingent to March 31, 1917, showing their strength and the number of men struck off each unit before it left this District. CAVALRY. Unit. Officers. Other Ranks. Number of Men Struck Off before Unit proceeded Overseas. 29 14 21 560 464 1,000 175 Drafts from Depot Squadron, R.C.D Depot Regiment, C.M.R 42 358 ARTILLERY, No. 2 Sec. Divisional Amm. Column 4th Brigade, Amm. Column Headquarters, 4th Brigade 13th Battery 14th " 15th " '. 8th Brigade Ammunition Column — Drafts from 30th Battery " 31st " 40th " 30th Battery 31st " 40th " 41st " Headquarters, 8th Brigade No. 2 Sec. 3rd Div. Amm. Column.. Drafts from 12th Brigade 67th Battery 69th " 70th " 71st " 12th Brigade 2nd Divisional Amm. Park 4th Divisional Amm. Sub Park 3 103 25 4 141 61 8 37 9 4 138 44 5 138 39 5 138 64 5 149 101 101 51 134 4 4 ? 5 28 5 134 34 5 134 16 5 134 6 35 170 4 27 1 50 149 100 100 100 671 3 ? 2 •> 27 28 10 406 53 5 164 4 CYCLISTS. No. 2 Divisional Cyclist Co 9 179 No. 3 " 8 193 No. 4 " 8 193 Drafts from Divisional Cyclist Depot 10 304 INFANTRY. 19th Battalion 20th " Drafts from 3.5th Battalion 37th 58th 74th 75th 76th 35th Battalion 36th " 37th " 58th " 74th " 75th " 76th " 81st " 83rd " 84th " 86th " 42 1,105 35 1.115 10 500 10 500 5 250 5 250 5 2,50 5 500 41 1,116 39 1,001 40 1,110 40 1,089 34 1.049 3fi 1,113 36 1,011 36 1,077 36 1,088 36 928 36 1,081 RECEPTIONS, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION INFANTRY.— Con. 1029 r Unit. Officers. Other Ranks. Number of Men Struck Off before Unit proceeded Overseas. Draft from 92nd Battalion 36 36 31 36 31 36 32 32 32 32 32 32 32 32 21 32 32 32 32 30 32 32 31 32 31 32 31 6 29 250 1,104 1,070 861 1,057 698 944 897 851 964 1,051 975 828 972 849 663 1,079 941 969 975 765 859 904 893 849 833 839 784 182 794 92nd Battalion 98 95th " 132 97th " 388 98th " 265 114th " 201 116th " 161 119th " 114 120th " 127 123rd " 201 124th " 179 125th " 70 126th " 196 127th " 135 129th " 129 133rd " 162 134th " 145 147th " 128 157th " . 128 159th " 178 162nd " 166 166th " 226 169th " 210 170th " 137 173rd " 176 180th " 255 198th " . . . . 251 204th " 242 Drafts from 213th Battalion 407 228th Battalion 276 SUPPLY AND TRANSPORT SERVICES. Field Bakerv, C.A.S.C No. 2 Field Bakery . 2 1 5 1 5 52 20 92 18 65 11 309 1,565 4 9 Railhead Supply Detachment . 8 Corps Troops Supply Column 2 1 3rd Divisional Supply Column 54 Drafts from No. 2 O-s A.S.C. Tng. Depot ' ''77 MEDICAL SERVICES. No. 8 Field Ambulance No. 2 Cas. Clearing Station No. 4 General Hospital 3rd Divisional Sanitary Section 4th " " Ontario Military Hospital Drafts from A.M.C. Training Depot No. 2 VETERINARY SECTION. Mobile Veterinary Section. MISCELLANEOUS. Drafts from 205th M.G.D. Battalion. . Eaton Machine Gun Battery. . .' 256th Railway Construction Battalion 257th 1030 SPEVIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS STATEMENT OF TROOPS RETURNED TO CANADA TO MARCH 31, lOr Classified in Military Districts. Year. 1 2 3 4 5 6 10 11 12 13 Not Stated. Total. 1915 3,587 4,575 3,048 3,587 1916 1917 476 288 1,124 440 41.3 174 579 129 242 57 531 173 671 213 514 222 178 92 442 208 9,745 5,044 764 1,564 587 708 299 704 884 736 270 650 11,210 18,. 376 The above is the only classification available. (Sgd.) 17 4/17 FRANK BEARD, i c Record Office. Soldiers' Aid Commission, 116 College Street, Toronto, Ont., April 20, 1917. Sir Herbert Ames, M.P., Chairman, Parliamentary Committee on Returned Soldiers, House of Commons, Ottawa, Ontario. Sir, — I have the honour to enclose you herewith the following schedule regarding the work of this Commision as requested by the Parliamentary Committee on Returned Soldiers at the sitting held in Toronto on the 20th ult. (a) List of discharged soldiers for whom employment has been found in Toronto. (&) List of soldiers who have returned to municipalities where local branches of the Commission have already been formed. (c) List showing total amount of money advanced to soldiers and their depen- dents by the Head Office of the Commission to the 28th February, 1917. (d) Summary showing disposition of the total number of men recorded at the Head Office of the Commission. (e) List of Soldiers by municipalities who have been cared for by local branches of the Commission. Kindly acknowledge receipt. I have the honour to be, sir. Your obedient servant, Enclosures J. WARWICK, Secretary. r RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1031 SCHEDULE "B." March 15, 1917. Soldiers' Aid Commission of Ontario. Number of men returned from overseas' service 5,400 " " discharged before seeing overseas' service 632 " " discharged from Imperial Forces 83 Number of men at present in or out-patients of the Convalescent Homes and Sanatoria in Ontario 1,503 Number of men found employment or being cared for by local branches 1,990 Number of men for whom employment has been found in Toronto. 999 " who have cMed since returning 5 " returned who have resumed studies 6 returned to take commissions 13 recalled to Canada for duty 25 returned insane 33 returned totally disabled 2 returned as "undesirable" 10 Number of men who have been returned to Canada and dis- charged from the service without any disability and who have not asked for assistance from this Com- mission — Over age 364 Under age 196 Cessation of working pay 284 Compassionate grounds 9 Discharged on headquarters' authority 10 Misconduct 3 Number of men who have since been discharged returned to other provinces Number of men to whom communications have been sent and returned marked " unknown " Number of men unaccounted for, but who have all received communications from this Commission and no reply being received are presumed to have returned to former employment SCHEDULE " E ". Soldiers Aid Commission of Ontario. March 15, 191^ List of Soldiers by Municipalities who are being cared for by local branches of the Commission. Alexandria " 3 Auburn Aylmer 6 Bayfield Beamsville 1 Belgrave Belleville 34 Bismark Blyth 1 Brantford 103 Brighton 2 Brockville 4 2 Brussels 3 Caister Centre Centralia 1 Chatham 25 Clinton 3 Cobalt 11 Colborne 3 Cobourg 29 Collingwood 17 1032 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS SCHEDULE "E."— Continued. Soldiers' Aid Commission of Ontario. — Continued. Corinth Dundas 22 Dungannon Dutton 2 Exeter 4 Pord-wich Port William 6'8 Gait 72 Gananoque 20 Goderich 12 Gorrie Granton Grimsby 12 Guelph 44 Haileybury 15 Hamilton 394 Hensall IngersoU 17 lona Keewatin 5 Kenora 20 Kingston 110 Kitchener 21 Lindsay 29 London 228 tLondesborough 4 Merritton 6 Milton 11 Moncton Napanee 4 New Liskeard 4 Niagara Palls 19 North Bay . . 21 Oshawa 43 Ottawa 2«i6' Owen Sound « 14 Paris 19 Parkhill 2 Parry Soundi 15 Pembroke 8 Peterborough 108 Port Arthur 5« Port Dalhousie 4 Prescott 2 Preston 16 Rodney 1 Samia 27 Sault Ste. Marie 21 Seaforth 6 Simcoe 18 Smith's Falls 8 .Smithville -. 2 St. Catharines ©2 St. Thomas » 6'3 Stratford 7i3 Sudbury 19 Springfield Toronto 2,398 Union Varna 1 "Walkerton 3 Walkerville 12 Walton Waterloo 3 Welland 16 West Lome Whitby 8 Winchelsea Windsor 90 Wingham 9 Woodstock 54 Zurich 4,923 RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1033 SCHEDULE " C ". Soldiers Aid Commission of Ontario. March 15, 1917. Reports received from Branches as to employment of Returned Soldiers, not including Toronto. Brantford 86 Brockville 42 Cobalt 11 Cobourg 17 Collingrwood 7 Fort William 40 Gananoque 4 Goderich 2 Guelph 6 Haileybury 7 Hamilton 305 Ing-ersoU 5 Kenora 2 Kingston 25 Kitchener 7 Lindsay 3 London 153 Merritton 2 Milton 6 Napanee 3 Niagara Falls 6 Oshawa 30 Ottawa 363 Re-enlisted 11 Owen Sound 11 Paris 19 Parry Sound 5 Pembroke 3 Peterborough 75 Port Arthur 18 Prescott 2 Simcoe 7 Seaforth 1 Smith's Falls 2 Stratford 20 St. Catharines 18 St. Thomas 35 Sudbury.. 6 Walkerton 2 Welland 16 Windsor 167 Woodsitock 35 Number of outside men who have returned to localities where branches of the Commission have not been formed, and for whom employment has been found 102 1.687 Branches from whom no Report has been received. Alexandria 3 Aylm€r 6 Beamsville 1 Belleville 34 Blythe 1 Brussels 1 Centralia 1 Chatham 25 Clinton 3 Colborne 3 Button 2 Exet«r 4 Gait 72 Grimsby 12 Keewatin 5 New Liskeard 4 1034 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS SCHEDULE 'V."— Continued. Branches from whom no Report has been received. — Continued. North Bay 21 Parkhill 2 Port Dalhousie 4 Preston 16 Rodney 1 Sarnia 27 Sault Ste. Marie 21 Smithville 2 Barna 1 Walkerville 12 Whitby 8 Wing-ham 9 303 RETURNED SOLDIERS' ASSOCIATION OF WINNIPEG. I hereby certify that the within is a true and correct copy of the record of Letters Patent granted to the " Returned Soldiers' Association of Winnipeg," as recorded in Minute Book folio 222. Dated at the office of the Provincial Secretary, in the City of Winnipeg, this twentieth dav of March, A.D. 1917. B. L. BALDWINSON, Deputy Provincial Secretary. [seal] D. C. CAMERON, Lieutenant-Governor. CANADA PROVINCE OF ^MANITOBA GEORGE THE FIFTH, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and of the British Dominions beyond the Seas, KING, Defender of the Faith, Emperor of India. To All to Wliom TJiese Presents Shall Come — Greeting: A. B. HUDSON, Attorneif-General. Whereas Richard Deans Waugh, Mayor; Thomas Henry Hooper, Superintendent of Water Works; William Allan Shepherd, Publisher; Frederick- John Bal-er, Manager; Arthur Egbert Ham, Superintendent of Insurance; John McRae, Manufacturer's Agent; John Downing Pratt, Agent; Albert Henry Smith, Grain Commissioner; George J. Dodd, Manager; and Charles Midtvinter, Gentleman; all of the city of Win- iiipeg, in the Province of Manitoba; have by their petition asked to be incorporated under the provisions of " The Charitable Associations Act," being Chapter 27 of the Revised Statutes of Manitoba, 1913, under the name of RECEPTIOX, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1035 The Iieturned Soldiers' Association of Winniper/. The purposes of the said Corporation are: — a. To aid and assist financially or otherwise by gift or otherwise, honourably dis- charged returned soldiers and their dependents, and to render them such assistance as the officers of the Association deem fit and proper. h. To aid and assist financially or otherwise by gift or otherwise, any other soldier or soldiers, his or their dependent or dependents whether same have been discharged or not, and whether of the Canadian or British Army or of any of the armies of any of the nations now fighting as allies of Great Britain and Canada, in the war in which Great Britain and Canada are engaged. c. To receive gifts, legacies and contributions whether in money or otherwise from any person or persons, corporation or corporations, and to collect moneys by way of gift or otherwise, and to maintain any action or actions that may be necessary to collect the same or any legacy, devise or bequest that may be left to the Association, and to donate or give the same to such person or persons as may be included in the intent of the Association. d. To have, acquire, hold, possess and enjoy real and personal property of every kind and nature, and for the use and purpose of the Association, and to sell, mortgage oi- dispose of the same, and to lease any such property or building or any part thereof that shall not be required for the actual use and occupation of the Association, and upon such terms and subject to such conditions as the directors of the Association may deem advisable. e. To lease any building or premises or any part or parts thereof for the occupa- tion and use of the Association and upon such terms and conditions as the directors may deem advisable. /. To amalgamate or affiliate with or to absorb any other society or societies exist- ing or which may be incorporated or formed in future, whose aims and purposes are similar to those contained herein, as may be considered desirable. g. To engage, employ and dismiss such servant or servants upon such terms as to remuneration as may be necessary for the purpose of carrying on the work of the Asso- ciation. h. To pass a by-law, if deemed necessary causing the dissolution and winding up of the affairs of the Association, including the disposition by gift or donation of all of the money, assets and property of the Association. i. To pass by-laws to regulate the powers and duties of the officers and the busi- ness of the Association. ;'. Generally to transact all and any such other business as may be necessary for the purposes of the Association, in accordance with its intent as herein expressed, but not in any way connected with trade and commerce, such Association to possess all the powers, rights and immunities vested in it, and provided for under the said Act. And Whereas the said applicants have complied with the provisions of the said Act, and it has been deemed exi>edient to incorporate them as requested; Now Know Ye that by and with the advice and consent of Our Executive Council of Our said Province, and under the authority of the above mentioned Act, and of any other power and authority whatsoever in Us vested in that behalf. We do by these Our letters patent constitute the said Richard Deans Waugh, Thomas Henry Hooper. Wil- liam Allen Shepherd. Frederick John Baker, Arthur Egbert Ham, John McRea, John Downing Pratt, Allx^rt Henry Smith, George J. Dodd and Charles ;Midwinter, and all and every such other person or persons as now is and are or shall at any time hereafter become members of the said Corixtration. a body corporate and politic with perpetual succession and a common seal by and under the name of The Returned Soldiers' Association of Winnipeg SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS with all powers, rights and immunities vested in such bodies under the law, with power to such Corporation in its corporate name from time to time and at all times hereafter to have, take, acquire, hold, possess and enjoy to and for the uses and purposes of such Corporation any messuages, lands, tenements or hereditaments of what nature and kindsoever, and to sell, mortgage or otherwise dispose of the same and to lease any buildings or part thereof, on any of its lands, that shall not be required from time to time. AND WE FURTHER DIRECT that the yearly value of the property to be so held by such Corporation shall never exceed the sum of Five thousand (5,000) dollars. IN TESTIMONY WHEREOF we have caused these our letters to be made patent, and the great seal of our province of Manitoba to be hereunto affixed. WITNESS His Honour Sir Douglas Colin Cameron, Knight Commander of our most distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, Lieutenant- Governor of our said province of Manitoba. AT OUR GOVERNMENT HOUSE, in the city of Winnipeg, this twenty- sixth day of February, in the year of Our Lord one thousand nine hundred and sixteen, and in the sixth year of our reign. By command, J. W. ARMSTRONG, Provincial Secretary. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1037 BILL No. 37 of 1917. An Act to incorporate The Saskatchewan Returned Soldiers' Employment Commission. [Assented to March 10, 1917.] WHEEEAS many persons who joined the forces raised by the Preamble Government of Canada to assist in naval or military operations in or beyond Canada in the present war, as soldiers, chaplains, surgeons or nurses or in other capacities, or who left Canada to join the armies of Great Britain or her allies for over- seas service as such in said war, have since returned and have been discharged on account of wounds or bodily infirmity, or sickness, or for other good and sufiicient cause, and many more will be return- ing from time to time for these or similar reasons; and Whereas it is desirable that provision should be made to secure as far as possible suitable employment for such of the said persons as are physically or mentally capable of rendering any kind of useful service, and in other cases to relieve distress; and Whereas it is expedient for the accomplishment of these objects that a representative body of persons should be appointed with cor- porate powers; Therefore his Majesty by and with the advice and consent of the Legislative Assembly of Saskatchewan enacts as follows: — 1, This Act may be cited as "The Returned Soldiers' Employ- ^^^^^ ^..^j^ ment Act." 2, There shall be a commission to be called "The Saskat- The commission chewan Returned Soldiers' Employment Commission," hereinafter called " the commission," which shall consist of the following per- sons and such others as may from time to time become members thereof in accordance with the bylaws, rules and regulations of the commission: His Honour Richard Stuart Lake, Lieutenant- Governor of Saskatchewan; the Hon. William Melville Martin, of Regina; Wellington Bartley Willoughby, Esq., M.L.A., of Moose- jaw; the Hon. Mr. Justice Elwood, of Regina; the Hon. Charles Avery Dunning, of Regina; George Ewan McCraney, Esq., M.P., of Saskatoon; Levi Thomson, Esq., M.P., of Wolseley; the Hon. Robert Menzies Mitchell, M.L.A., of Wcyburn; David James Wylie, Esq., M.L.A., of Maple Creek; William W. Davidson, Esq., M.L.A., of Moosejaw; Samuel John Latta, Esq., M.L.A., of Govan; Dr. W. D. Cowan, of Regina; Jacob W. Smith, Esq., of Regina; R. H. Chad- wick, Esq., of Moosejaw; J. A. Maharg, Esq., of Moosejaw; Dr. A. MacG. Young, of Saskatoon; William Knox, Esq., of Prince Albert; Malcolm Henderson, Esq., of North Battleford; Levi Beck, Esq., of Yorkton; W. Jones, Esq., of Swift Current; Charles F. 1038 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETVh'NED SOLDIERS Moore, Esq., of Weyburn; Herbert Gerveys Smith, Esq., of Regina; Stewart C. Burton, Esq., of Regina; William George Styles, Esq., of Regina; James Habkirk, Esq., of Regina; Dr. Walter Charles Murray, of Saskatoon; James Frederick Cairns, Esq., of Saskatoon; James Clinskill, Esq., of Saskatoon; James R. Wilson, Esq., of Saskatoon; James Pascoe, Esq., of Moosejaw; Alfred William Maybery, Esq., of Moosejaw; Edward Charles Mathews, Esq., of Moosejaw; A. E. Stevens, Esq., of Moosejaw; C. L. Davis, Esq., of Asquith; Richard A. Miller, Esq., of Rosetown; E. J. W. Coutts, of Davidson; C. R. Mcintosh, North Battleford; R. C. Laurie, of Battleford; His Honour W. J. Wylie; T. A. Patrick, M.D., of Yorktou; Henry Turner, Esq., of Springside; N. P. O. Noel, Battleford; W. W, Smith, ' Battleford; Philip Chevalier, Esq., of Maple Creek; Peter Crerar, Esq., of Govan; Wesley Rowson, Esq., of Rosthern; John Law, Esq., of Swift Current; D. W. Adam, Esq., of Prince Albert; F. B. Judson, Esq., of Prince Albert; J. O. Carmichael, Esq., of Saskatoon. 3', The commission shall be a body corporate and shall have its head office at the city of Regina. Objects 4. It shall be the duty of the commission and it shall have power : (a) to make a careful and comprehensive industrial and commercial survey of the available sources of employ- ment for returned soldiers within the province; (h) to arrange through the medium of returned soldiei-s' welcome and aid leagues, federal and provincial labour bureaus, boards of trade, and other public bodies and institutions for the placing of returned soldiers in such positions as they are most capable of filling; (c) to solicit, receive and distribute funds coming into its hands for the purposes for which it has been formed. Executive committee 5. — (1) The affairs of the commission shall be administered by an executive committee to be chosen by the commission from among its members, and to consist of a chairman, a secretary- treasurer and such other officers and members as the commis.sion may by bylaw determine. (2) Until the executive committee is so appointed, the follow- ing persons shall act as a provisional executive to administer the affairs of the commission, namely : The Hon. Mr. Justice Elwood, chairman; Dr. W. D. Cowan; Jacob W. Smith, Esq.; William Davidson, Esq., M.L.A. ; R. H. Chadwick, Esq.; J. A. Maharg, Esq.; Dr. A. MacG. Young; William Knox, Esq.; Malcolm Hender- son, Esq.; Levi Beck, Esq.; W, Jones, Esq.; Charles F. Moore, Esq.; and G. Harmon Jones, Esq. First meeting 6, Within thirty days from the date upon which this Act comes into force, the provisional executive shall call a meeting of the commission, of which ten days' previous notice shall be given to each member by registered letter. I RECEPTIOX. TUEATMEyr .1X1) RE-EDICATWN 1039 7, Meetings of the commission shall be called as occasion ^^eetings requires, for the hearing of reports, the consideration of questions of policy and other important matters, but no meeting shall be deemed to be properly constituted unless there are present at least twelve members, including- a majority of the executive committee. 8, The commission may from time to time make such bylaws. Bylaws rules and regulations for the guidance of its members and the con- duct of its affairs as may be deemed advisable. 9. The commission may employ such methods and make such Funds public appeals as it finds necessary for securing the funds requisite to carry out the provisions of this Act, and it may expend such funds, and all other moneys coming into its hands in such manner as it may deem advisable. 10. From the receipts of Tlie Patriotic Revenues Act the Expenses provincial treasurer may advance to the commission from time to time as required, such sums of money as are approved by the Lieutenant Governor in Council, for the purpose of defraying the general office and administration expenses of the commission. 11, The commission shall not be liable for any act, error or *^?'"'"^^^'°'^ omission of any of its officers, members, agents or employees in liability respect to the receipt or expenditure of moneys, or for any act whatsoever, and any unlawful act, error or omission shall be charge- able only to the officer, member, agent or employee who is directly and personally responsible. 12. The books and the accounts of the commission shall be ■^'^'''^ audited quarterly by the provincial auditor or his agent, and the report of such audit shall appear in the minutes of the commission and be given such publicity as it may direct. 13'. The commission may, subject to the approval of the Branch Lieutenant Governor in Council, as occasion requires, establish o^^ces branch offices at such points in the province as it may deem neces- sary, may organize returned soldiers' welcome and aid leagues throughout the province, and may engage such agents and employees as the conduct of the work may require. 14. The commission shall exercise its office during the period ^'®^°'"^'°" of the present war and for such further period as necessity may require, unless sooner dissolved by Order in Council. 15. The commission shall take over and continue the work of delations the Saskatchewan division of the military hospitals commission of orean^zaUons Canada, and shall act in harmony with the military hospitals com- mission, the military hospitals commission command and all kin- dred organizations. 16. This Act shall come into force on the first day of April, 1917. 1 40 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Cer.tified Copy of Order in Council of the Province of Alberta, dated Wednesday, November 10, 1915, approved by His Honour the Lieutenant Governor. The Executive Council has had under consideration the report of the Hon. the Provincial Treasurer, dated November 10, 1915, stating that, — Whereas, at the Inter-Provincial Conference held at Ottawa on the 18th day of October, 1915, regarding the problem of taking care of and providing employment for the members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force who return to Canada during the period of the war, certain suggestions were adopted by the said Conference and agreed to by the Dominion Military Hospitals' Commission and the Government of Canada; And whereas one of the suggestions provided that the Government of each province should appoint a Central Provincial Committee consisting of such number of members as each province may deem desirable; Therefore, upon the recommendation of the Hon. the Provincial Treasurer, the Executive Council advises the appointment, without salary, of the undermentioned as members of the said Central Provincial Committee: The Hon. Charles Wilson Fisher, of the town of Cochrane, Speaker of the Legis- lative Assembly of the Province of Alberta; William Thomas Henry, of the City of Edmonton, Mayor; Michael C. Costello, of the City of Calgary, Mayor; James Speakman, of Penhold, President of the United Farmers of Alberta; Alexander Ross, of the City of Calgary, representing organized labour. The said Honourable Charles Wilson Fisher to be chairman of said Central Com- mittee and to be ex-officio a member of said Dominion Military Hospitals' Commis- sion. Certified a true copy, JOHN D. HUNT, Clerk of the Executive Council. Edmonton, April 20, 1937. Certified Copy of Order in Council of the Province of Alberta, dated March G, 1916, approved by His Honour the Lieutenant Governor. Upon the recommendation of the Hon. the Provincial Treasurer, dated March G, 1916, the Executive Council advise that H. W. Woods, of Carstairs, president of the United Farmers of Alberta, be appointed a member of the Central Provincial Committee, without salary, in the stead of James Speakman, deceased. Certified a true copy, JOHN D. HUNT, Clei-k of Executive Council. Edmonton, April 20, 1917. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1041 Certified Copy of Order in Council of the Province of Alberta, dated Monday, October 16, 1916, approved by His Honour the Lieutenant Governor. Upon the recommendation of the Hon. the Provincial Treasurer, dated October 16, 1916,, the Executive Council advises that the appointment of the following persons as members of the Central Provincial Committee, without salary: Archibald 0. Hawthorne, Mayor, of Medicine Hat; Wm. D. L. Hardie, Mayor, of Lethbridge. Certified a true copy, JOHN D. HUNT, Clerk of Executive Council. Edmonton, April 20, 1917. PROVINCIAL RETURNED SOLDIERS COMMISSION IN CONJUNCTION WITH MILITARY HOSPITALS COMMISSION, CANADA. Victoria', B.C., April 5, 1917. Sif Herbert Ames, Chairman, Parliamentary Committee on Retiirned Soldiers, Ottawa. Sir, — In accordance with your instructions, I have the honour to enclose here- with for inclusion in your Committee's report, the following: — (a) Copy of order in council approved 29th November, 1915, ci'eating the Pro- vincial Returned Soldiers. Aid Commission (British Columbia). (&) Report of the Provincial Commission as submitted to tlie Legislature 31st March, 1916, dealing with the following matters: — 1. The provision of farm lands for settlement by returned soldiers and sailors ; 2. The provision of education, technical and agricultural training and employment of returned soldiers ; 3. The establishment of Provincial Bureau to provide for the distribution of the labour supply created by demobilization and immigration; 4. The provision of a supply farm for use in conjunction with the Military Convalescent Hospital at Esquimalt. In connection with Part 1 of the above-mentioned report, I enclose a copy of a letter written by this Commission to the Dominions Royal Commission on the occasion of their sitting at Victoria, 21st September, 191G. The Provincial Government pur- pose putting into effect immediately a land settlement policy on the basis of com- munity settlements along the lines of our Commission's recommendations. While this will be a provincial measure, we are of the opinion as stated in our letter to the Dominions Royal Commission that the matter of providing lands for settlement by ex- soldiers is one not confined to the provinces. It is in fact, rather an Imperial ques- tion and we consider that the costs in connection therewith should be borne, in part at any rate, by both the Federal and Imperial Governments. It is suggested that such share might take the form of loans to the returned soldier settlers for the pur- chase of stock, implements, etc., against the security of chattel mortgages. Part 2 of the Commission's report refers to the matter of Vocational Training. The advantages of this system are proving of incalculable value and we are of the opinion that the system might be extended with great advantage to include the re- training of able-bodied men, either soldiers or civilians, desirous of improving their 28277—66 1042 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETUh'XED SOLDIERS condition by taking- up trades other than those they have been perhaps obliged to follow. As in the matter of land settlement, the Commission considers that the primary responsibility for the extension and development of this phase of the vpork, together with the co-ordinated feature of the establishment of industries most closely allied to the natural resources of the country, rests upon the Federal and Imperial Governments in co-operation with the various Provincial Governments. Part Three of the Commission's report deals with the establishment of Employ- ment Bureavix which in our opinion would prove of material assistance in dealing with the distribution of the labour supply following upon demobilization. Part Four of the Commission's report deals with the matter of a supplj^ farm for use in conjunction with the premises at Esquimalt presently occupied as a Convales- cent Hospital by the Military Hospitals Commission. We are of the opinion that if is as yet too early to deal with the provision of permanent homes, but in the event of such an establishment becoming necessary in the future the farm in question would prove a highly desirable adjunct. (c) Copy of the Commission's Employment Return to 28th February, 1917, show- ing disposition of men on the Commission's records. (d) Statement of positions in various employments found for men applying to the Commission. (e) A list of the points in the Province at which the Commission is represented, either by duly organized committees or correspondents. (/) Copies of forms which are being used by the Vocational Officer in making an Industrial Survey of the Province. I have pleasure in enclosing also copies of two resolutions passed by the Victoria Board of Trade relative to Returned Soldier matters. ] have the honour to be, sir, Your obedient servant, J. W. HILL, Secretary. Copy of a Report of a Committee of the Honourable the Executive Council, approved hy His Honour the Lieutenant Governor on the 29th day of November, 1915. To His Honour The Lieutenant Governor in Council. The undersigned has the honour to recommend that the undermentioned gentlemen be appointed a Provincial Committee, with jwwer to add to their number if deemed necessary, to work in conjunction with the Military Hospitals Commission of Canada, in regard to the provision for the care and employment of members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force upon their return to Canada: — The Honourable H. E. Young, M.D., LL.D., Provincial Secretary, representing the Government of British Columbia (chairman) ; His Worship Mayor A. Stewart, representing the City of Victoria ; His Worship Mayor A. W. Gray, representing the City of New Westminster; His W^orship Mayor A. E. Planta, representing the City of ISTanaimo; Alderman Joseph Hoskins, representing the City of Vancouver; A. C. Burdick, Esq., representing the Returned Soldiers Employment Committee of Victoria ; and KECEPriOX, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1043 E. \V. Ilumber, Esq., representing the Keturned Soldiers Committee of the Cana- dian Club of Vancouver; and That the said Committee be empowered to take up its duties forthwith, and to do all such matters and things as may in the opinion of the Committee appear requisite for the carrying out of its objects. Dated this 2()tli day of November, A.D. 1015. H. E. YOUNG, Provincial Secretary. Approved this iHJth day of November, A.D. 191.5. RICHARD McBRlDE, Presiding Member of the Executive Council. Note. — See also printed copy of report of the Returned Soldiers' Aid Commis- sion, British Columbia, March 16, 1916. SUPPLEMENTARY EVIDENCE. From : Medical Officer i/c Sanatoria, Ste. Agathe des Monts, P.Q. To: Sir Herbert B. Ames, President Parliamentary Board of Inquiry. Reception and Treatment of Soldiers, Ottawa. March 18, 1917. Evidence. Sir — I have the honor to refer to my evidence given in Montreal on the 15th inst., iiiid to your question relating to the number of N.C.O.'s, officers, nursing sisters, men, etc., received in Ste. Agathe, and to submit the following figures : — Table VII. Showing the number of officers, nursing sisters, N.C.O.'s and men received at the sanatoria in Ste. Agathe des Monts at. date ending March 18, 1917. Source. Laurentian Sanitarium. Laurentide Inn Sanatorium. From France 61 — 26% 52 - 22% 122 — 51% 44 - 40% 27 - 25% 38 — 35% Froin C'anadii (amps, t to Totals 235 - 100% 109 - 100% The foregoing statement has been made with reference to transfers from one institution to the other. In the case of a transfer the sanatorium in which the man finished treatment or spent the latter part of treatment has been credited with the 2S277— 6Gi 1044 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETURXED SOLDIERS admission. There were twenty-seven N.C.O.'s and men transferred from the Laurentian Sanitarium to. the Laurentide Inn, and eight transferred from the Inn to llie Laurentian. I have the honour to be, sir, Your obedient servant, J. R. BYERS, ', Captain M.O. i/c L.S. SUPPLEMENTARY EVIDENCE. CAUSES OF DISSATISFACTION. The dissatisfaction of our returned soldiers is due to several causes, e.g. : — 1. Difficulties with pay and pensions ; 2. Complaints against hospital discipline and treatment; 3. Neglect after discharge. 1. Difficulties until pay and pensions: (a) Pay and allowances. Troubles in respect of these have been chronic ever since the men began to come back. The delays involved, the inability of many unlettered men to carry on correspondence with officials and the lack of answers to letters are sources of irritation. (6) Pensions. Perhaps this is the most fruitful cause of complaint. Nearly every soldier is aware that a new scale of pensions was promulgated early in 1916, under which an increase of pension was anticipated by the pensioner. Following the announcement of the nevv^ scale many inquiries were written to Ottawa and all the earlier ones elicited the same reply in the form of a printed circular issued under date of* 1st July, 1916, promising adjustments which have not yet been made. Mistakes are made in paying pensions and delays which are incomprehensible to the men are frequent. Pensions bulk enormously in the minds of returned soldiers and what seems a very small matter to an official, is of great importance to the indi- vidual soldier. Pensions which seem entirely inadequate, and which are based upon an incom- plete appreciation of a case, or which are classed as final where reasonable finality has not yet been reached, are freciuently matters of apparent injustice to discharged soldiers. Some of this trouble is attributable to premature discharge, though often, at the man's own request. There are many cases of the payment of a '' gratuity " of $50 in " full settlement " of Government liability where the recipient has been unable to do any work whatever and where he has found himself and his family absolutely destitute. Contributory to such hardships is the fact that on discharge everything stops at once, military pay, separation allowance, patriotic fund, medical treatment, and the fact that a wife was maintained — sometimes in comparative luxury during her husbands' active service — emphasizes the change of circumstances and accentuates the grievance. No reflection on the Patriotic Fund is intended, as difficulties in this respect are matters of public knowledge. 2. Complaints against Hospital Treatment and Discipline. The returned soldier who comes home to Canada direct from England has usually been rather " spoiled " in English hospitals and homes and is unprepared for the some- what rigorous discipline which he finds in Montreal. Care should be taken not to give a Convalescent Home too penal an aspect, thus giving an unfortunate first impression and creating an antagonistic of mind which will not easily be overcome. Discipline is necessary, but it can be made too ostentatious. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AXD RE-EDUCATION 104b Vocational training to be a useful adjunct to recovery must be administered under proper conditions. The great curative agencies of sunlight and fresh air are funda- mental requisites. The training is worse than useless when it involves confinement all day, either in a smoky crowded recreation room, or in cramped, badly lighted and badly ventilated workrooms. The well nigh ideal premises and plant of the Montreal Technical Schools should, by arrangement with the Provincial authorities, be made available for the vocational training. The fact that the men would proceed on foot or by conveyance to and from this school would in the matter of open air and natural exercise be a great benefit. The failure to use, except for very few cases, the Khaki Convalescent Homes (particularly the one on the mountain side specially provided by the league for nervous cases) for returned soldiers, except a very few, and the utilization of these homes for recruits who have never been overseas, has irritated the returned soldiers. They draw unfavourable comparisons between the treatment meted out to themselves who have suflFcred great harships, and the men who have but lately answered the call of duty, and have not yet gone overseas. These two classes of men should not be mixed, and the best accommodation should be given to the returned soldier, not to the recruit. 3. Neglect after discharge. There has been no organized attempt to keep in touch with a man after discharge. He is oft" the slate so far as the Government is concerned. Nominally, he is restored to a civil status and that in varying degrees of fitness, or rather unfitness, to pick up the severed threads of his former life, often as unreal to him as if it belonged to a previous existence. As before stated, pay, allowances. Patriotic Fund, all ceases, nothing but a meagre pension to fall back upon, and he is frequently in trouble about that. He remembers his recruit days. The allurements and promises held out to him then, and recalls his anticipation of the treatment which the returning heroes would receive. He still sees everything being done to secure and to care for recruits, and he compares the fair promise with the bitter realization. He is becoming a direlict, a malcontent, a source of infinite future trouble and responsibility for Canada. What can be done to avoid such a misfortune? A plan for dealing with returned soldiers. The returned soldier is at a loss where to go if in need of assistance. He sees Militia Headquarters, Armouries, Recruiting Stations and other Government places where the new soldier can get attention, but they have other things to do than look after the veterans. Besides, he has been taken out of the control of the regular mili- tary authorities. He is " fed up " with hospitals, he knows nothing about any local representative of the Pensions Board, his family have no further claim on the Patriotic Pund, though they can get help from the Soldiers' Wives League if they think of asking for it. Often the man shrinks from applying for help because it seems to him a monstrous thing that, after what he has been through he should be a suppliant for charity. Sometimes he is too deficient in education or too mentally impaired to figure out just what his remedy may be. To such men the Khaki League and the Khaki Clubs have become veritable havens of refuge, the one place where sympathy-, counsel and practical assistance without talk or formality or red tape are instantly available. The League has been organized and working quietly for two years. It has the confidence of the soldiers and the support of the public. It proposes to establish at Khaki League Headquarters, a Committee of Soldiers' friends, composed of repre- sentatives from the Khaki League, the Patriotic Fund, the Soldiers' Wives League, the Returned Soldiers' Association, and from other organizations if desired. 1046 SPECIAL COMMlTTEE-C.E.F.—h'ETih'yED SOLDIERS The Committee to include in its personnel a doctor and a lawyer, and to meet, say, twice a week or oftener if necessary. Keturned soldiers with any difficulty or grievance whatever to be invited by advertisement and otherwise, to report same to the League Headquarters. The league will, as it has already done, make some immediate investigation, and furnish prompt (that is the same day) temporary relief. The applicant or his case will go before the Committee at its first meeting when (1) Difficulties of pension could be noted by the pension representative, and where adjustments are due and pending, immediate advances could be made, possibly with an understanding from the Government; (2) Medical treatment. Cases needing medical attention will be at once dealt with by a doctor. On his certificate the man could be (a) readmitted to a convalescent home (6) to a regular hospital (some cases would be greatly benefited by application and treatment procurable only in regular hospitals, (c) Sent home for treatment and nursing there. The doctor's report could be made the basis for proceedings looking to a read- justment of pension where such might seem desirable. Dealing with Man's Family. The representative of the Patriotic Fund could take steps towards procuring, if justifiable, a wife's immediate restoration to the benefits of the fund. The Soldiers' Wives Leagues, through their representative, could get instantly in touch with the family, look after the children, etc. The legal representative could attend to matters of fraud and injustice which are constantly perpetrated upon returned soldiers, and which the knowledge of some legal interest existing on their behalf would tend to avoid. The representative of the Returned Soldiers' Association would have the effect of inspiring the soldier's confidence in the Committee, since it would include one or more of their own number in its membership. Such a body could give speedy, friendly, unofficial relief. It would provide a means for the prompt hearing of every complaint, it would disarm criticism and leave no excuse for lack of attention. Promptness and absence of formality is an essential. These men do not want help in three days, or three weeks or three months. When they want it, they want it instantly. The composition of the Committee would prevent overlapping, for the functions of each organization could be settled then and there. On active service a soldier can always get a hearing from his superiors and knows exactly where to go to state his case. He cannot be expected to unlearn every- thing which he has acquired through months of training and actual experience. It takes a considerable time for well educated officers to re-adapt themselves to civil life. And it takes those who sympathize with the returned soldiers, who understand their point of view and best of all, who have shared their experiences to deal successfully with them. A. R. DOBLE. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1047 701-3 Belmont Housk, Victoria, B.C., March 25, 1917. Sir IIkrbkrt Amks, Chairman, Returned Soldiers Committee, Ottawa. Sir, — The limited time at mj^ disposal prevented me submitting the following (H'idence which I beg to submit now, ivWi the request that it may he included in my evidence already given before your committee. A medical officer, name unknown to me, was asked by your committee what could he done to make hospitals more attractive, especially for tubercular patients. He would suggest nothing, but stated that strict discipline was necessary. That is wrong. Discipline is the cause of dissatisfaction. A sick man returning to this country after having done his bit wants more freedom. He is an invalid and should be treated as such, instead of being annoyed by military discipline and restraint. Many men have been discharged from a date some months previous to the time they were notified and have consequently been -placed in awkward financial positions. I understand this cannot occur in future, but this latest Order in Council does not go far enough, it should be retroactive. ■ A business man who sold goods yesterday, has as much right to receive payment as the man who sells goods to-morrow. The circumstances are exactly the same, and there should be no discrimination between the man who fought last year and the man who is fighting now. Another point I wish to bring to your notice is the necessity of providing employ- ment for returned men as soon as they are fit to work. The practice of assisting men indefinitely is likely to undermine their selfrespect, the habit of living on charity, repugnant at first, may become chronic, transforming worthy and desirable citizens into useless and undesirable beggars. Immediate action is necessary to remove this very grave danger. Your obedient servant, H. W. Hx\ET. Honorary iSecretary, Returned Soldiers Association, Victoria, B.C. P.S. — The object of this association is to co-operate with the Government, and assist it in every way, in its endeavour to find a solution of the returned soldier problem. H. W. H. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. House of Commons^ Ottawa. Committee Room 303, Tuesday, May 1, 1917. The Committee met at 10 o'clock a.m., the Chairman, Sir Herbert Ames, presiding. Members present: Sir Herbert Ames, Mr. R. B. Bennett, Hon. Charles Marcil, Mr. Middlebro, Hon. Charles Murphy, Mr. Pardee, !Mr. Koss (Middlesex) and Mr. Sutherland. The Chairman: I have here a communication from Mr. N. F. E. Knight, Secre- tary of the Great War Veterans' Association of Canada, which I understand, is an amalgamation of the various bodies whose testimony we have received, in a Dominion- wide organization, which was created at Winnipeg, at a conference on the 12th April, 1917. He also sends a list of the findings and recommendations of that conference, a copy of which is here for each member. As part of it relates to pensions, I think it would be well for the members to read that over previous to resuming ^lajor Todd's evidence. I may say that ^Ir. Knight is coming down this morning, and wants to be present in connection with Major Todd's evidence. Conforming to our request Mr. Stutchbury, who appeared before the Committee as representing the local Soldiers' Aid Association of Alberta, has filed a certified copy of the Order in Council of the province of Alberta, creating the Provincial Committee, which I think should be printed in our record. Major Todd recalled and further examined. By the Chairman: Q. Major Todd, when the hour of adjournment arrived at tne /ast meeting of our Committee, you had not completed your evidence. Do you wish to continue on the same lines, or would you prefer to take up pension scales and specific eases ? — A. After thinking over the matter, I think perhaps it would be better to continue along the same general lines, and that then you allow me to put in evidence, with a comparison of the British, French and Canadian pensions scales, the suggested scale of Canadian pensions, for which you asked me, and lastly to take up specific cases. Q. Very well, then, we will follow that line. — A. In going over my evidence, I see that in speaking of centralization of control for the liquidation of the war, I did not lay sufficient stress upon the necessity for the formulation of detailed instructions for dealing with casualties, nor upon the point that, whilst there must be centralized administration, the immediate care of men, on demobilization or as now when they are returning in small numbers, should be distributed geographically among existing mili- tarj^ organizations in the districts — executive functions should be dealt with by the man on the sjwt. In Canada, great distances make very difficult constant reference to headquarters. Another point on which I should have laid stress is this, and you have had some evidence before you which will draw attention to the necessity for it ; it is important to bring out the jwint that in France it has been found necessary lo pass legislation forbidding the acceptance of public funds for purposes connected with the war by any 1049 1050 SPECIAL COiJMITTKE—C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS society without Government approval. It might be interesting to you in that connec- tion to have a precis of the Act which the French Government has recently passed. Mr. MiDDLEBRo: That is a valuable suggestion. Document filed as follows: — 1. Section Lois et decrets general. Loi relative aux oeuvres qui font appel a la generosite publique. (.Published in " No. 178 Bulletin des Lois de la Eepublique Frangaise." Partie Priucipale.) 1916. The Commission, to control all societies founded with the object of ren- dering assistance to those who have suffered from the war and whose funds will be dependent upon public generosity, will be composed of representatives from the Departments of the Interior, Finance, Justice, and the Council of State, together witli three representatives appointed by the Minister of Interior from recognized charitable organizations. It will comprise in each depart- mental area of France a representative from the Department of the Interior, who will act as president, representatives from the Departments of Finance and Justice, an inspector for the department of charitable organizations, and of two members of a recognized charitable organization, residing in the depart- ment. No individual, society or organization may appeal for funds to" public generosity withoiit first obtaining authorization from this body. Those who do so will be liable to inspection. Daily accounts must be kept of all receipts and expenses. The authorization may be withdrawn on wilful infringement of rules, the society dissolved, the fluids transferred, either according to existing statute governing the society or failing them, may be distributed among other author- ized societies. Any person administering a society may be punished by fine or imprisonment for infraction of rules. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. I do not quite understand that proposal, '^lajor? — A. There are a great num- ber of societies in France, and in the evidence it appears that there are some in Can- ada, which solicit subscriptions in aid of returned soldiers. Sometimes that money is very excellently expended, sometimes it is not expended with as much regard to econ- omy as might be desirable. The French Government hold that in war time the total resources of the country are consecrated to the prosecution of the national aim, and the Government will not permit private individuals to solicit money. Q. Or private associations? — A. Yes, for matters connected with the war. without Government approval and control. By 3/y. Middlehro: Q. Otherwise you have them begging in many ways? — A. Yes. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. "Would that prohibit the formation of societies with membership fees at $5 or $10? — A. Absolutely everything. By the Chairman: Q. It would not necessarily mean prohibition, but regulation and authorization oil such as were deemed good? — A. Quite right. An elaborate machinery has been set up in France; it is outlined in the precis. Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : In Canada the same thing might go on by organizations getting charters. [Major J. L. Todd.] liECEI'TIOX, THKATMEXT AXD RE-EDUCATIOX 1051 Mr. MiODLEBRO; Beforo they get subscriptions, the suggestion is that such organ- izations be registered by the (Tovernmcnt " and be compelled to account for the funds that they get. A man should also be prevented from going on the streets and solicit- ing alms for himself. The Witness : It would apply to tag days and movements of a similar nature. The CuAimrAN : After the war there will be a plethora of groups of returned soldiers who will endeavour to live on the public, and some regulation will be absolutely necessary. The Witness: Another point upon which I did not lay sufficient stress is the necessity for proper statistics and records. We have the experience of the United States to go by; the United States found it very difficiilt to compile accurate statistics after the Civil ^■ ar. Xow is the time when we should make our plans for the keeping of records and statistics; that plan should be carefully followed in all of its details. In connection with artificial limbs, I might further emphasize the necessity for providing at once for the repair of these appliances. France is training men as manu- facturing orthopedists in her factories where artificial limbs and other appliances are being manufactured. There will be in Canada, I suppose, at the end of the war three or four thousand men who will require new artificial limbs at the end of every three years or so. It is worth while conim-cncing at once to train manufacturing ortho- pedists so that there may be centres all over the country where the men can get their limbs repaired. By the Chairman : Q. The Canadian Government, I understand, not only supi)lies the man with the original artificial limb required but also guarantees to stand the expenses of repairs and renewals? — A. That is my belief, sir. Q. And your contention is that the renewals and repairs will constitute a problem involving at least a thousand A. I would not like to name a figure. Q. A large number? — A. Yes. Q. Of limbs that will have to be made every year? — A. That is right, sir. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. Does it not mean that men will have to go all round the country and repair limbs? — A. Yes. France has appreciated the necessit.y of providing manufacturing orthopedists in every town of any size who will repair the artificial appliances of men living in their areas. Men are being trained to do that work. It is a new profession. Tlie men who are to follow it are generally crippled men. In speaking of pensions I tried to make it very clear that the Pensions Commis- sioners look upon themselves as trustees for soldiers and sailors. In that connection, let me refer to the list of complaints through which we are going later. Among them are a couple of instances involving distinct hardships. Those hardships would have been avoided if the men in question had realized that their complaint should have been made to the Pension Commissioners. We received the complaints indirectly through this Committee. If the complaints had come to us directly they would have been dealt with earlier. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. What is your view in regard to publicity? — A. I am for publicity in every way — as fully as possible. By the Chairman: Q. Are you familiar with that poster which you see on the wall — " What every disabled soldier should know"? — A. Yes. [Major J. L. Todd.] 1052 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Was that gotten out with the co-operation of the Pensions Board? — A. I think I may say so. Q. Does it contain what the Pensions Board would desire to have? — A. I think it is an excellent thing. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Your suggestion is it should be much larger? — A. Please do not misunderstand me; I am not complaining. I think the Military Hospitals Commission has done an excellent work. By the Chairman: Q. They forward you all complaints they receive from day to day? — A. Yes. There is the utmost co-operation; but war is a new thing to us. We are having the same experience as France and Great Britain; here, as there, there cannot be too much publicity, so that everybody may understand the problems to be dealt with and the manner in which they are to be met. Q. What would you think of having a small handbook or primer, in short chapters, which a returned soldier or citizen of only average ability would be able to clearly understand, and have them widely distributed among returned soldiers and those inter- ested in returned soldiers? — A. Every suggestion of that sort seems to me excellent and worthy of adoption. Q. That should be issued by the Government? — A. Yes. Q. Along the line of that poster? — A. Yes. Q. What every returned or disabled soldier should know? — A. Yes. Q. Who would be the proper people to get that out? — A. If a centralized body should be found, it would be the organization to deal with that. At the present time it would be the Pensions Board or the Military Hospitals Commission. Q. Or the military authorities? — A. Yes, or all three combined. In trying to fulfill its function of trustee for the pensioned soldiers, the Board of Pensioners has established its organization, an Investigation Branch. Its object is to visit every pensioner once a year at least and see that all goes well That is its first and most important function. Q. By pensioner you mean ? — A. Anybody in receipt of a pension. Q. Man or woman? — A. Yes. Q. The word pensioner includes all classes ? — A. Yes. At the present time we have twelve district offices, four more are to be opened up, in all the important centres. The offices are distributed in accordance with the local density of recruiting. Q. Will you file a statement of the location of those offices and the official in charge? — A. I shall do so. These district offices have a second important function. We have come to believe that there has been a certain looseness in the administration of American pensions. One of the prime causes of any loose administration was that ex parte evidence was permitted; that is, the man who was going to get the pension was the man who collected the evidence on which that pension was granted. We intend that one of the functions of our branch offices, a part of the Canadian pensioning body, will be to assist applicants for pensions in presenting theii' claims in proper form. Q. Would a soldier desiring re-examination for revision and pension make applica- tion to one of your local centres? — A. Yes, either to the local centre or to Ottawa, which- ever he wishes. In speaking of pensions; in looking over the evidence it has seemed that one or two witnesses did not quite understand that the amount of Canadian pensions is governed only by military or naval rank, and by disability. Income, previous and subsequent occupation, make no difference. The only thing that governs the amount of pensions, for the rank concerned, is the extent of the disability. It was suggested that numbers of men were refusing vocational training and employment through fear lest their pensions might be reduced if they perfected them- [Major J. L. Todd.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1053 selves in some ocupation or obtained employment. I have made inquiries through the Military Hospitals Commission on that point, and there seems to be no sound ground for the suggestion. Complaints were made, in the c"idence, against headquarters. Pensions Board, because pensions were not granted in accordance with the medical certificates sent in by outside practitioners. I want to draw attention to the point that estimates of the extent of disability by independent civilian medical men are often valueless for pension purposes, because the civilian practitioner usually has very little knowledge of the history of the disability and consequently is not in a position to say whether or not the disability existed in the man examined prior to his enlistment. It is only ar headquarters, where we have all the papers, and we know the man's history, that we can say certainly that a disability antedated enlistment; when that is so, the disability is not pensionable. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. If the disability exists prior to enlistment, he would not be entitled to enlist at all? — A. No; but there are progressive diseases. Sometimes men are attested when they are apparently well, although they are suflFering from a disease, such as syphilis, which is of a progressive nature. If plainly evident symptoms of that disease appear during a man's service, and if their appearance is precipitated by the stress of service, then the man is plainly pensionable for the extent of that aggravation; but he is not pensionable for the portion of his disability which resulted from the incurrence of the disease before enlistment. Q. Should such a man be accepted at all? — A. Of course not; but the trouble is that doctors are liable to error. It is often very difficult to detect the disease: There are very few of us who have not had an acquaintance who has died of locomotor ataxia and whom we never thought of as syphilitic, Q. If the medical man certifies in the first instance that he is medically fit, and inferentially that he has not syphilis, how are you going to prove that he was afflicted with the disease at the time of enlistment? — A. Excuse me, I do not think it is a fair inference; because it is very easy for a medical man to miss latent syphilis. Tuberculosis is a common disease; it also may be progressive. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Do you mean it may not show itself for years and years? — A. Quite right. Q. But here is a man who knows that he has the disease. That man when he enlists must have some knowledge of it? — A. Men often think they have been cured. ]Mr. MiDDLEBRO : Might it not happen that a man who had syphilis did not know it. and enlisted, and was passed by the medical man, and then afterwards, by stress of t^ervice, the disease became patent, and then he is told he had the disease when he joined? He will never believe that. He also has the medical certificate and such a man would never be satisfied with his pension because he will say, " I did not know it, and I did not have it, and the medical man certified that I did not have it.'' By the Chairman: Q. But if your medical man asserts that, had he not enlisted, that would have broken out an>"way, then how does he become eligible for pension ? — A. I do not think he becomes eligible for pension. I am speaking personally now; do not think that I am sjjeaking as a pension commissioner. My opinion is that Canadian military pen- sions should be Canadian military pensions. If you want them to be anything else than that, say so. My conception of a military pension is one that compensates an individual for any personal detriment — I do not care when it comes on — resulting from service. It is so in Great Britain. The disability might come on several years after [Major J. L. Todd.] 1054 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETUWNED SOLDIERS tlie war is over. Whenever it appears it is pensionable; but if disability does not result from service, it is not pensionable. If, on the other hand, it is desired to make every detriment which appears in a man during his service pensionable, then let it be said, plainly, that the object of our pension legislation is not only to pension disabilities caused by war, but also to insure our soldiers and sailors against all the risks of exist- ence during the time that they are in the Canadian Expeditionary Force. They are two distinct ideas; one is general insurance and the other is military pensions. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What do you call it? — A. General insurance — accident and health insurance. By Mr. Aliddlehro: Q. You would always have a man who did not believe he had syphilis, and who ■would have the doctor's certificate to prove that, and afterwards the disease would develop and he would say he did not have it before ? — A. I think your point is not quite sound, for this reason : you will get lots of men who will publicly protest that they have never had it ; but if they are honest men and if you get them by themselves and ask quietly, they will answer, "Yes, there was a little slip." Q. Would it be possible for a man to have it in its incipient stage and not know he had it ? — A. He may think he is cured. By the Chairman: Q. He knows he has been exposed? — ^A. Yes. He knows he has had a sore, had treatment, thought he was cured; and probably got married; but he has been insuffi- ciently treated. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. He might not know he ever had it ? — A. There may be some cases ; but they are very few. By the Chairman: Q. What would be the position of the Pensions Board in a case like this: a man is in training at Valcartier, and on Saturday afternoon in summer, being off duty, he goes down to the river for a swim, and is drowned?— A. The regulations say that a man is pensionable for things that occur during service. That is the law. Q. Therefore his widow gets a pension? — A. Unless it can be shown distinctly that the man was negligent. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Take this case; a young man enlisted, and some time during the day when the men were off duty, had a little wrestling bout in the camp, and in the wrestling bout got injured and incapacitated, would he be entitled to a pension ? — A. Yes, if the occa- sion was as you state it to be. Q. The man was not on duty, but in the idle hours of the day indulges in a little wrestling match? — A. If there was no negligence, or fault, or wilful misbe- haviour, or anything of that sort, absolutely, yes. Q. Just the ordinary recreation a man would have? — A. In England it has been so stated in orders; if a man is playing football, to make himself fit to be a good sol- dier, and is injured, he must have his pension. [Major J. L. Todd.] RECEPTION, TREATME^'T AXD RE-EDICATION 1055 By the Chairman: Q. Have you any further note there? — A. There is a point which has been dis- cussed, many times, in the evidence; it is, the amount of the pension. The general consensus of opinion concerning the amount of the pension is that a pension, in con- junction with the remaining capacity for work of the pensioner, should be sufficient to secure decent comfort to the man receiving it. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What would be the minimum pension for the private? The Chairman : That is dealt with in this memorandum for soldiers, and we will take it up clause by clause. Witness : There is another point that should be considered. A question was asked in regard to it at the last sitting of the Committee. You asked me if there were any instances in which the Pension Commissioners really went a little bit outside of the law, and you suggested that it might be a good thing were the Pension Commissioners to have the power of recommending to the Governor-in-Council that pensions should be granted in certain cases of hardship. There are cases of hardship. Hardship exists when, under existing pension laws, pension is refused to a sister who has been depen- dent upon a lost soldier brother. Hardship also arises when a son, a younjr boy of eighteen — an apprentice or a student— has gone to the front and has been killed. He never contributed to the. support of his father and mother ; but he undoubtedly would have done so had he lived; the whole question of prospective dependency is involved here. I think it is possible to draft a clause which would cover such cases ; and, speak- ing here as a pension commissioner, the Board of Pensions Commissioners think it would be very much better were general principles stated in our pensions legislation, were specific laws enacted in accordance with those principles, and were as little as possible in our legislation left to the discretion of any body performing the functions of a pensions board. We would much prefer to see every provision definitely formu- lated. We would like to see specific legislation given to the pensions commissioners to administer. Q. Even then there would be always hardship? — A. Possibly. If there were the remedy you suggest seem? to be an excellent one. Q. That they might be dealt with by Order-in-Council but only upon recommen- dation of the Pensions Board? — A. That is right, sir. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. If you are dealing with exceptional cases I can relate the facts with respect to one which I brought to tlie attention of the Prime ^linister last session. In that case- the youth was a natural son, born and brought up at St. Godefroi, Bonaventure County, by his foster mother. This young man came from there up to this part of the country and went to the shanties. Afterwards he enlisted. He was told his name should be so and so. He took that name and stated his next of. kin. Shortly after going to the front he wrote his foster mother, and she is in possession of the letter, telling her, among other things, that he had taken out a policy on his life but omitting to mention the name of the company. Since then he has been killed. His dependent has been told she will receive the unpaid balance of pay due to him, but nothing beyond that. Now, how would you deal with a-case of that kind? — A. That case would clearly come under existing pension legislation, in view of the relation of the woman of whom you speak, to the dead soldier. Q. This is a poor fisherwoman who had taken the boy and brought him up and looked to him for assistance in her old age. — A. She was certainly the soldier's foster [Major J. L. Todd.] 1056 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS mother. Under existing legislation, if the facts are as you have stated them, the woman referred to would be regarded as dependent upon the dead soldier. Q. The parish priest at St. Godefroi drew up a statement of the facts and I handed it to the Militia Department. — A. If you give me the name and all of the facts connected with the case I shall be very glad to look into it and send a statement to you. There is another point which might be mentioned. It was brought out in Senator McLennan's evidence and had reference to the necessity of providing insurance for disabled men. If a man is disabled conditions are altered for him. Because of his disability the price of services to him, where normal probability influences cost, is altered. A disabled man cannot get accident insurance nor can he always get life insurance on the same terms as can a healthy man. The situation should be met by legislation in some way. Senator McLennan gave an excellent example when he referred to the case of a one-eyed man. Such a man is more exposed to danger because he has only one eye, and if he loses his remaining eye he becomes not one-eyed but blind ; these facts will prevent him from getting employment. The case must be met in some way. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Do you suggest that the State should undertake the business of accident insurance? Or that it should absorb the cost of such insurance? — A. In my opinion it is immaterial what course of procedure is followed so long as the case is dealt with. I do not know enough about accident insurance to lean to one procedure rather than another. The point is that the situation must be met either by providing for insur- ance in the pension or by making other provision. In France, there is a fund for bearing the extra cost of insurance, so that it costs a disabled man no more than a sound one to become insured. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Is that fund provided by the State? — A. One-half is provided by the State and the other half by the insurance companies. Q. Could not the same thing be done here? — A. I do not know. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. An insurance company would not be so apt to insure a disabled man as a well man, because the former is more apt to be injured? — A. That is so. Q. Then if the company's liability depends upon the amount the man was earn- ing, and the disabled man's earnings would not be as large as a man who was physic- ally fit, would not that tend to counteract the disinclination on the company's part to insure the disabled man? — A. Not quite. Take the case of the one-eyed man. If such a man loses his remaining eye in a factory the employer has a totally blind man • on his hands, and under existing legislation the amount of damage for the accident will be estimated for a blind, and not for a one-eyed man. Q. I am speaking now of the Workmen's Compensation Act. If a one-eyed man only receives one-half as much wages as a man with two eyes, the amount an accident insurance company would have to pay would be much smaller than in the case of the former? — A. As a matter of fact do you not think that a one-eyed man would get as much as a two-eyed man? Q. Yes, I think he would? — A. So do I. Unfortunately, employers would be inclined to say to such a man : " You only have one eye. You are dangerously liable and susceptible to accident; I will not have you in my shop." By the Chairman: Q. As a matter of fact, public opinion would compel the employer to pay that one-eyed man the same as the two-eyed man? — A. It is to be hoped that it may be so; [Major J. L. Todd.] RECEPTIOt;, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1057 but the French are already faced with this condition of things : The men -who are not in receipt of pensions are jealous of those who are, and it has been necessary to examine the situation in order to provide means to prevent pensioners from becoming a degraded labour class because of the tendency to say to a pensioner, " You have money coming in; therefore, you can work for less wages." By Mr. Middlehro: Q. The effect of your argument is rather to show that employers would be deterred from employing any injured men at all? — A. It would have both results. I would like to urge very strongly the point that in our opinion in the light of French experience and from experience in Great Britain, the pension is the least of the things that must be done to secure the proper rehabilitation of a disabled man. The pension is a mere bagatelle compared with the importance of making the man employ- able, and of getting permanent employment for him. By Mr. Bennett: Q. The difficulties of assimilating returned soldiers into civil life are not as great in Canada where we have a citizen army raised on the volunteer system, as in Europe where compulsory service prevails. — A. That may be true of certain parts of Canada; but it is said that in British Columbia over eleven per cent of the population has gone to the front; that is about the same percentage of the population as is serving in Great Britain. From what I have heard, bearing in mind all the circumstances, it will be difficult and very important for British Columbia to get those of her men who have gone, back at work. Q^ I should think the difficulties of assimilation are not as great in our country as in the older countries of Europe? — A. Generally speaking, I think your statement is correct. That brings up the question of employment bureaux. A point upon which the French especially insist is that an employment bureau, to be of any value, must have the power of advancing transportation to men who are travelling towards districts in which they are to be employed. The French authorities have nothing but good to say of the English system of employment bureaux. Q. In Canada the great distances to be travelled, especially where it is a case of transportation of labour between provinces, has to be borne in mind. Is this the whole difficulty, so far as you can see it? — A. As far as I can see it. Mr. Bennett: That is the high cost of transportation and the long distances to be travelled. By the Chairman: Q. There is in every province now a Soldiers' Aid Commission organized for the purpose of assisting to find employment for returned soldiers. Do you think that as another adjunct to these local provisional organizations there should be a Dominion organization of some sort to transfer the superfluous labour of one province to another in case of necessity? — A. As far as I can see, the establishment of a Dominion-wide >\stem of co-ordinated labour bureaus under federal control might be a splendid step !n advance. There are other problems which become extremely evident when they affect soldiers. There is, for example, the matter of a Department of Public Health. When we see tubercular soldiers going about our streets, we feel that everything should be done to care for them properly; but there is very little which can be done under existing legislation. If, through the desirability of providing properly for tubercular soldiers, sound machinery for dealing with tubercular citizens were established, much good would result from a great evil. [Major J. L. Todd.] 28277—67 1058 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS The Chairman: I am going to ask you, Major Todd, to stand aside for a few minutes in order that the Committee can examine General Jones. We want to get a little information from him, and it is necessary to secure his testimony now, par- ticularly as he is a very busy man and is shortly to leave for overseas. Witness retired. General Jones called, sworn, and examined: By the Chairman: Q. Please give your full name, your military status,' and the work you are at present engaged upon? — A. Guy Carleton Jones, surgeon general, medical com- missioner. Q. Your work has been mainly overseas, has it not, since the outbreak of the war? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You have been in charge of the medical services in England and in France as well? — A. I was in charge of the medical services overseas until October 18, and again from January 6 until February 9. Q. I think "the Committee would likg to have you tell them something with regard to the way in which men are selected in the Old Country for return to Canada ; also the way in which you determine how many shall be sent back and the steps you take to notify the authorities here as to the probable return of men. Our evidence has been linked up with the evidence of the authorities on the other side of the water, and we would like to have any information that you can give us dealing with the problem of the returned soldier. — A. Perhaps it would save time if I gave you an estimate which I prepared for Sir George Perley, in January, 1917, showing the estimated number of men to be provided for this year. There were at that time in hospitals in England a total of 16,000 men, and an estimate was made from the casualties occurring in the Canadian corps during 1916, and the probable number of casualties that would result if another division were added. Taking the proportion of casualties to be returned to Canada as 18 per cent, it gave the number to be semt home as 7,200, and there were at that time in England about 3,000 cases that would, in all prob- ability figure in the class to be returned. Then if the estimate was made of about 2 per cent of sick men to be returned, it would raise the total to be sent back home in 1917 to a little over 12,000, or just over 1,000 a month. Those figures comprise the cases straight from hospitals in England to hospitals in Canada. Then if you take the percentage of men who have come from Buxton Q. You are speaking of men who are no longer available? — A. Who are no longer available for various reasons, medical and otherwise. Thirty per cent of these men would in all probability require convalescent accommodation in Canada after their arrival here. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. How many men would the 30 per cent represent? — A. About 300 a month. Q. Should that number be added to the 12',000?— A. Yes. By the- Chairman: Q. Have the recent casualties among the Canadian troops at the front led you to believe that that number will be exceeded? — A. No, sir, because the casualties must, like everj'thing else, follow the law of averages. There is a limit to the loss a corps can sustain, and the casualties that we based our estimate on for 1916 include two very heavy periods of loss in June and September. [Surgeon-General Guy Carleton Jones.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1059 Q. When you calculated that about 15,000 men would come back to Canada in 1917 did you expect that it would be at an even rate from month to month? — A. Yes, I did. It will work out fairly well in that way, too, unless the Canadian corps is pulled out of the field altogether for a couple of months at a time. However, that has never yet taken place. Since our troops went to France they have never been pulled out either as a division or corps. Bij Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. What do you mean by the phrase "pulled out"? — A. I mean pulled out of the firing line. By the Chairman: Q. What is the calculated wastage? — A. It is difficult to estimate. Q. Now, go on with your statement? — A. The class of cases coming back to Canada are first of all the men who would be absolutely unfit for service. That is, men that the Medical Board in England have decided are unfit, for medical reasons, and there is a class that will require further treatment extending over a period, of say, six months, and the endeavour is to get those men back to Canada from England, but that is to be safeguarded, because we must always look to the very important point that we must keep up the strength in France and that the farther the man goes away from the firing line, the more difficult it is to get him back. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. The policy is not to send back to Canada any man that might ultimately go back to the firing line? — A. Unless their treatment is for a long period of time, and that is guarded by the opinion of specialists, of Colonel Armstrong and, now. Colonel Primrose, and they advise the Canadian medical officers, as to what class of case should be operated on in England, and what class in Canada. There are certain cases we could not touch in England, under say, three, four or five months, and perhaps longer. Some of these cases we send out to Canada, but, it is carefully watched by the specialists, who see that no man is sent to Canada who should not be sent. By the Chairman : Q. Are the men suffering from various complaints, such as tuberculosis, carefully segregated in the ships when they are sent back? — A. On our hospital ships, they are. Q. And the shell-shock cases and others? — A. For the mental cases there is special accommodation on the hospital ships. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Are any wounded sent back to Canada except on hospital ships? — A. Not recently, unless those who are not in medical hands; nobody under medical charge is now being sent back in other than hospital ships. By the Chairman: Q. What proportion of the returned cases are known as active cases? — A. There has been a great deal of confusion in the minds of the people out here as to what are active and what are not. An active case is a case which has not reached its finality as far as medical treatment is concerned. The cases to which I refer such as injury to the bone that cannot be operated on for six months on account of latent infection, are active cases, although they might not require operative treatment for six months or more. [Surgeon-General Guy Carleton Jones.] 28277— 67i 1060 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. By " active cases " here we sen^i'ally infer, or generally mean, a case that will have to be sent to a regularly constituted hospital where medical or surgical attendance is always available, as distinguished from convalescent cases that may be sent to a home, where it is only a matter of rest, fresh air and good treatment and amusement. Have you any idea what proportion of the cases coming back would fall into those two categories? — A. No, I could not give that, because the class of cases will vary from time to time in England. Q. Have you ample accommodation in England for all cases of what you might call an active character? — A. We have accommodation that will deal with the situa- tion, but the accommodation for that special class of case, the orthopaedic, which covers a very large group of cases, has not been increased in proportion since it was decided to send these orthopaedic cases back to Canada. Q. Is there any probability of any very great increase in the demand for hospital accommodation in England, that will render it advisable to send more than 1,300 cases per month to Canada? — A. It might not arise from Canadian cases, but it might arise from the English situation in this way: when an offensive is going to be made a " whip " will be sent around to the English hospitals, by the War Office, to get every available man out of the English hospitals; that will include Canadian as well as English, therefore the pressure, in a few days, becomes apparent on the Canadian Convalescent Hospitals. All classes of cases go to those hospitals, whether needing a week, a month or less under ordinary conditions, but in every case it is controlled by the lever which is at the Front. Q. Have you ever been in that condition in England where you desired to send back some Canadian cases and were restrained from doing so by lack of accommo- dation here? — A. The only time I know of was when a cable was received asking for delay of — I do not remember how long, but think it was about three weeks — on account of the terminal facilities at Halifax and St. John not being ready. Q. What would be the maximum number of Canadian cases that might be cared for in England without resulting in a persistent demand that a larger number be sent to Canada? — A. That depends entirely upon the English accommodation. The situ- ation changes so rapidly that I could not give you the figures at the present time, but only a very short time ago the Director General of the English Medical Service made an extremely urgent demand for more beds in England; whether he got those beds or not, or what proportion of them he got, I do not know. By the Chairman: Q. There is no differentiation made between the Canadian and the British wounded in the primary care of them? — A. No, not in the primary care of them. The Chairman: Then, General Jones, unless there is something you wish to add to what you have already told us, I would say that the committee is much indebted to you for the valuable information you have given us. Witness discharged. Examination of Major Todd resumed. Witness: I was asked when I last gave evidence to compare the pensions paid in Canada with those of Great Britain and France. This (producing tabulated state- ment) is "A Table comparing Rates of Pensions for War Disabilities, for Widows and fpr children in Great Britain, France and Canada; with a suggestion for a new Canadian Pension Scale — all for a Private Soldier or Able-bodied Seaman." Please look at the English scale, which came into force, on the 4th of April. Under that scale a man may receive a gratuity of not more than £200: — that is [Major J. L. Todd.] RECEPTlOy, TREATMEyr AND RE-EDUCATION 1061 really a commutation of pension. For a disability of less than 20 per cent, or when the interest of the soldier demands it, pension and allowances may be commuted, as a gratuity, in a single payment of not more than £200. A man who gets the $1,000 can get nothing more. Such a gratuity is given to neurasthenics, who suffer from no physical disablement. A man receiving such a sum commences to spend it. In a few weeks he finds that his resources are diminishing and commences to work: occupation is the best cure for cases of that sort. The large gratuity is a far-seeing provision for a special class of cases, but it will be a very difficult thing to administer properly. The Chairman: The difficulty is as soon as that $1,000 is gone, the man comes back for more. — A. Certainly. By Mr. Ross: Q. What is the lowest disability the English pension law recognizes ? — A. The lowest class is 20 per cent. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. There is no pension under 20 per cent disability? — A. No, but there is com- pensation, by gratuity, for disabilities of less than 20 per cent. By Mr. Ross: Q. And that may be up to £200?— A. Yes. By Mr. Middlehty): , Q. Would the man get the $1,000 for a disability of 19 per cent?— A. $1,000 would not be given for disability of 19 per cent. A lesser compensation would be given. Q. The $1,000 is in lieu of a greater pension? — A. That is the idea. Q. Speaking generally, how do the Canadian pensions compare with the British and the French? Are they higher or lower? — A. They are the most generous in the world. By the Chairman: Q. Are they more generous than the revised English pensions? — A. For the disabilities pensions, yes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What do you mean by that answer? — A. Pensions given for disabiUty. Q. In what do they differ? They are all on account of disability? — A. No, sir, Great Britain has an alternative scheme, which compensates a man for economic loss. By Mr. Ross: Q. Is that based upon his earning power? — A. The British, at the present time, give pensions in consideration of two factors, i)ersonal detriment, and economic detriment. They grant their pensions in accordance with the disability ; but they permit men to receive what are called "alternative pensions"; that is, pensions in which the previous earning power of the pensioner is considered. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Is that based on the earning power of the man alone? — A. It is an alternative pension. [Major J. L. Todd] 1062 SPECIAL COMMirrEE—C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Alternative for disability entirely, or disability with regard to his earning power? — A. It is the amount of money the man receives which is important. It does not much matter how he gets it; but i£ it is to the man's advantage to consider his previous earning power, then earnings are considered. Q. It is absolutely alternative, but ho cannot take it partly under one and partly under another? — A. No. Q. This is to cover the case of a man who was getting a larger salary before his injury than he can earn afterwards? — A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. That is they have the alternative right to take it on the amount of their previous earnings or a straight pension if they choose? — A. The clause making the provision under discussion reads as follows : — "3. Any disabled man jyensioned under article I of this Our Warrant, who makes application and shows that the minimum pension with children's allowances (if any) which he has been granted, together with the average earn- ings (if any) of which he remains capable, are less than his pre-war earnings, may be granted, temporarily, or permanently, in lieu of the minimum pension and children's allowances, a pension, which, together with the average earnings (if any) of which he is judged capable, shall not exceed his pre-war earnings up to a maximum of fifty shillings a week, plus half of any pre-war earnings between fifty shillings and one hundred shillings a week." That means that the maximum pension a man can get is 75 shillings per week in respect of his whole family, and that brings up the most important point in the whole question of pension legislation, it is the provision of a maximum amount for the Ijensions which may be granted in respect of an individual soldier or sailor. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Under that provision you would have this difficulty, that the man who is to be re-educated will have the amount of his pension reduced on account of his increased endents of those who have died for the Empire; that the pensions of the widows and mothers, which are especially unjust and inadequate, be increased without delay, widows and mothers of deceased soldiers being placed upon the same footing." [Major J. L. Todd.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1063 Now, what is your opinion? Do you think the present pensions of widows and mothers of soldiers are adequate or should they be changed? — A. They should be on the same footing. Q. You think they should be on the same footing? — A. It would seem proper to me, that they should be placed on the same footing. By Mr. Boss: Q. The mother would get 80 per cent, then the same as the widow does now? — A. Exactly. By the Chairman: Q. Under the present scale it is $32 per month to the widow and $24 to the mother? — A. That is right, sir. Q. And is it your opinion, that they should both be $32 per month, or is it your opinion that $32 per month is not enough? — A. I do not wish to give an opinion, because I know of no figures obtainable in Canada, making it possible to state accu- rately the cost of living, and my conviction is that these pensions should be sufficient to ensure decent comfort. Q. If the widow receives $32 per month, and she has no children, how would that compare with a widow's pension in England and a widow's pension in France under similar circumstances? — A. Our pensions are very, very much better. The widow in France receives only about $7.50 a month. Q. As against $32 that we pay ? — A. Ours is very much higher. Q. And in the case of the widow in England, how does that compare? — A. She receives 13s. 9d. per week, that is about $13.75 per month. The Chair>[.\n: That is what a British widow would receive, and ours, you will observe, are very much higher. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. The cost of living here is much higher than it is in England and France? — A. I am not prepared to make a statement about that; in some parts of Canada $32 a month will provide very decent comfort indeed. Hon. Mr. Marcil: What could a woman do with $7.50 a month? By the Chairman: Q. Major, what would you thinj< of a proposition to supplement the pension of the widow of a British reservist, where the widow resided in Canada, or the widow of a French reservist residing in Canada, so as to enable them to receive from their own Government and from tlje Canadian Government a total pension that would l>e equiva- lent to that of a Canadian widow? — A. I would like personally to see it done, sir. Hon. ]\rr. ^NrARCii, : The chairman mentioned only British and French reservists. T suppose widows of Belgian and other reservists would be included. The Chairman: I mentioned those two classes for illustration. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Do you think that the widow and the dependent mother should be placed on the same footing as regards pension? — A. Not exactly, sir, for this reason: The widow is dependent upon one man ; the widowed mother may have several children, each responsible for the support of that mother. Each child is legally responsible, as in Quebec, or morally responsible as in certain of the other provinces, for the sup- port of a necessitous parent. [Major J. L. Todd] 1064 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. Where, however, the widow is dependent upon one son, who is her sole sup- port, and who has been killed, in your judgment should that widowed mother be treated as a widowed wife? — A. If that son were the sole support of that widowed mother, yes. By Ml'. Middlehro : Q. Those are the only classes who are supposed to go on the pension list? — A. The law reads : " \\ holly or mainly dependent." By Mr. Ross (Middlesex): Q. Would you cut her allowance down to $60? — A. I would simply investigate each individual ease. I think that the Government must replace to the uttermost farthing every personal loss due to the war. If one son has been killed in the service of the country, and the widowed, dependent mother' has two other sons, the Govern- ment merely replaces the loss of the son who has died. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Supposing the one who was killed was the only one who contributed to his mother's support, that the others were married and had families of their own, and were financially unable to help their mother? — A. If that were true, I would say that she should receive the full amount. Q. Have you power under the law to do that? — A. Absolutely, sir. Under the present law no distinction is made. It must be proved whether the mother was " wholly or mainly dependent." By the Chairman: Q. At present the maximum allowance to a widowed mother is $24 a month? — A. That is right. By Mr. Pardee: Q. If a mother and a widow live together, would they each get a pension? It is very often the case that a widowed mother and a widowed wife live together; that is, a man may support his mother in the same house as his wife. If he is killed, can they both draw a pension? — A. I think, if there is a widow, that the widowed mother is not pensionable. (See section 22, Order in Council, P.O. 1334, June 3, 1916.) Q. I think the provision is that a widowed mother must have been dependent on an unmarried son in order to get separation allowance? — A. I think it is so. Hon. Mr. Murphy: There must be such cases as Mr. Pardee has mentioned. Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : I do not think the Government compensates the two cases. By the Chairman: Q. Now, take the second recommendation of the Great War Veterans' Association (reads) : — Therefore be it resolved that, in the opinion of this Convention, the present system of gratuities under the Pension Act should be abolished, the ratio of disability of the pensioner be reduced from 20 per cent, as at present, to 5 per cent. Do you think it would be advisable that, instead of having five classes of pensioners, there should be ten classes with a 10 per cent difference in degrees? — A. Personally [Major J. L. Todd.] RECEPTION', TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1065 I am very much in favour of it. Here is the suggested scale which you asked me to draw up (indicating document). I want you to understand, gentlemen, that this is my personal suggestion, that it is not made as coming from the Pension Commissioners. On the right hand side this note appears : " For the purposes of exposition only, $40, the existing pension for total disability, is assumed to be a sum sufficient to ensure ' decent comfort.' " Class 1, 100 per cent would be awarded $40 per month, and the other class reduced with drops of $4 per month for each 10 per cent disability until we get down to " less than 10 per cent." By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. In your suggestion there are twelve classes, starting at 5 per cent? — A. Prac- tically, with the gratuity. By the Chairman : Q. You have worked this out on a 10 per cent basis? — A. Yes, sir. Q. In each case, the man 100 per cent disabled would get $40 a month and the man 10 per cent disabled would get $4 a month, and if disabled less than 10 per cent he would get a gratuity of $200 or less ? — A. Yes, or $2 a month. Q. If he preferred it? — A, Yes. Mr. MiDDLEBRO : That is 12 per cent of $200 for life. Document filed as follows : — [Major J. L. Todd.] 1066 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETDRNED SOLDIERS < a < 1 i Amount of Pension for Children under 16. Dollars per month. §SggSS§SS8 co«ciOM<-*cococ^jc^-. Amount of Pension. Dollars per month. 11 liitiififsjf i d ^co" is ¥ o 1 ^'J -HCqcOrfiiffOt^OOCiCl'-' Amount of Pension for Children under 16. Dollars per month. O CO « CO to it Amount of Pension. Dollars per month. 40 32 24 16 8 Gratuity of $100 or less. 1- 1 g°^ ^ Q J ^ c^ CO Tf o CO Widows and father- less children e a o s n £ B P(5 Amount of Pension for Children under 16. Shillings weekly. = $1.20 1st child 2nd child 4/2, 3rd child 3/4, 4th and subse- quent child 2/6. Ij Amount of Pension. Shillings per week. II 22/- 19/3 16/6 13/9 11/- 8/3 5/6 ^ iifffii - s « C C > = -^ G r^ ± ft ,£3 -Q cJ S 2 t* « n3 § •" •" T3 .2 -S g o CO o "C o" o s I? s : :^ S .2 J S t^ ^-1 IS o « - -■ " i^ ^ ^ ^^ 6 ^ •^ o o o "^ ^- S c ea o « o o E "^ 1068 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—liETURNED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. Your recommendation would be that the system of gratuities be practically abolished, and in lieu thereof that a minimum amount as low as $2 a month be given for the lowest degree of disability? — A. I would not abolish gratuities, sir, for awards of $100 or less. There are many men who would much prefer to have a lump sum of $100; it would be more useful to them than a small monthly gratuity. I would not like to see anything less awarded as a pension than $2 a month. Q. That is low enough to go on a permanent basis? — A. That is my personal opinion, sir. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Is your idea, according to your suggested table, that nobody would receive more than $40 a month? — A. Excuse me, you have not considered the necessity for attendance. Some men may require an attendant. Mr. Pardee : A totally disabled man gets an allowance for an attendant of $2.50 additional a year. By the Chairman: Q. The next recommendation of the Great War Veterans' Association is: (reads) Also, that any decision of any board be not final, but that any man disabled and receiving a pension, or with claim to pension, have the right to appeal to another board than that formerly appeared before, whenever suffering increased disability. Now, what have you to say with reference to that recommendation? — A. That has reference to boards of medical officers. At the present time that is precisely the procedure which we are endeavouring to follow. Sometimes it is necessary to employ the same board of medical ofiicers again, but we try, whenever there is an appeal, to get an opinion from a different board of medical officers than that which made the first report. By Mr. Pardee: . Q. You try to get a court of appeal? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. The recommendation of the Great "War Veterans' Association proceeds as follows: (reads) And further we protest against the unfair practice of Pension Board Headquarters reversing the recommendations of a local medical board, without ever seeking the man, or examining his condition. What comment do you make on that ? — A. On the face of it, that contention seems to be very sound; but I think, as a matter of fact, it is not sound, for these reasons: I referred to one point this morning, that the local medical board does not always have the full knowledge of a man's past history which we have at Head- quarters. A second reason is that local medical men do not always have an accurate knowledge of the extent of disability which results from a given injury that we do have at Headquarters on account of our great experience. I have seen the proceed- ings of a board of medical officers in which the disability consequent upon the loss of one eye was put do\vn at 100 per cent. I mean exactly what I say. I do not mean that there was pain or other complication; to estimate the loss of one eye as a 100 per cent disability is absurd. [Major J. L. Todd.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1069 By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Is that disability not fixed by Order in Council'^ — A. Yes. But local medical boards sometimes make estimates of disability which are not in accordance with the facts. Q. Which are clearly wrong? — A. Yes. By the Chairman : Q. As I remember the evidence, Major Todd, the principal objection raised by the returned soldiers was that the recommendation of the local medical board who saw and examined the man was revised or altered by the Headquarters of the Pension Board on documentary evidence only, they never seeing the man. Would it not be better in that case to have the man brought to Ottawa and re-examined? — A. I think it would be impossible, sir, on account of the long distances. I think that the point is quite completely and well covered by existing instructions which arc sent to the medical men examining for pensions purposes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What are those instructions? — A. They are told that the thing we want from them, above all, is an accurate description of precisely the condition existing. Medical men are supposed to be able to express fairly accurately on paper that which they observe. If an accurate description is obtainable I think that it is possible for a cen- tral board to justly, efficiently, and equitably administer pensions -without actually seeing the man applying for a pension. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. When you revise the findings of a medical board, you do it by correspon- dence? — A. Absolutely. By the Chairman: Q. What happens is this: the applicant is examined by the medical board. The medical board, rightly or wronglj', tell the applicant what their decision is? — A. They have been asked not to tell applicants the extent of disability. Q. The applicant goes away understanding that the medical board has recom- mended him for, say, SO per cent disability. He has his finding revised and cut down to, say, 60 per cent disability. He says : " The board which actually examined me in the flesh considered me disabled 80 per cent; the board which has not seen me at all considers me disabled oijly 60 per cent." The man thinks he has a grievance. How will you meet that condition? — A. If the man is of the opinion that he has a griev- ance, he should write a letter to the Pensions Commission and make a complaint; he can always appeal and get another examination. Q. Your reply is, that, if dissatisfied with the ultimate finding of the Head- quarters Pension Board, the right to appeal is open to him, and that probably the second examination would also be by a local board composed, if possible, of different men. By lion. Mr. Marcil: Q. Has he the choice of naming one member of the board ? Mr. Pardee : Let the witness answer the question. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Would he go before the same board for the second examination? — A. Not necessarily. In some instances, yes. If possible, we try to get a different board. If there still seems to be cause for complaint we get a specialist to report on the appli- cant. In one of the cases named in the evidence concerning which you will probably question me, we have made arrangements for the man to go to Montreal to be examined by a specialist. LMajor J. L. Todd.] 1070 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. When it comes down to the last analysis, if a man appeals and is not satisfied, lie has the right to reappeal, and when he does so you will give him the very best help you can in the way of a specialist? — A. We are there as the soldiers' trustees, and we finally refuse no pension until we three commissioners are satisfied that there is no right to pension. Q. But he has two appeals before that is decided? — A. He can appeal as often as he wishes. We do not limit his right to appeal. Q. He always has two appeals? — A. I would not say that. There are some cases, Mr. Pardee, where it would be useless to give a man two appeals, say, the case of one of those poor fellows named in the evidence, with syphilis. One of the cases cited is such a case. He is, from the reports we receive, a pretty bad man. It would be useless to permit that man to appeal twice. By the Chairman: Q. Yet he can go to certain newspapers and get all the columns of space he wants ? — A. Part of the press has been very good in referring complaints to us first before publishing them. By Mr. Sutherland : Q. Do you have many appeals from the findings of the local boards? — A. My answer to that question is, no. We are granting about a thousand pensions a month, and yet your committee is sitting and has received only 40 complaints. I cannot give you oifhand the figures of how many complaints we have received. I can get them. By. the Chairman: Q. I think it would be well if you would let us know what proportion of cases are appealed? — A. We have only sat as a formal commission, I think it is, twice, to hear an appeal. The pensioners have the right, under Order in Council P.O. 1334 of June 3, 1916, to appeal to the Commissioners. By Mr. Sutherland : Q. Do the local boards comply with the conditions set forth in your forms? — A. The war was a new thing, a new experience for us all. Every one with w'hom I have come in official contact since the war commenced, with negligible exceptions, is doing his very best. My answer then is; that there are not more inaccuracies than one might expect. On the whole, the boards are accurate. Q. You have told us that some of the boards have put down the disability for the loss of one eye at 100 per cent, which would indicate that they are not always accurate ? ^A. That happened in Great Britain, sir; I saw it in England when I was on service overseas. Q. Would it not be more satisfatcory to have a permanent board to examine these men rather than to select a board that had not been doing, possibly, any work of that kind? Would it not be more satisfactory to have permanently on the job men who thoroughly understand the work, andj whose findings would be uniform, than to take the findings of boards appointed practically for the sake of convenience? — A. I hope thej^ are not appointed " practically for the sake of convenience." I know that the Director General of Medical Services has been asked to appoint the best boards he can get, that representations have been made to him of the necessity of good boards. The situation is this : while the Pensions Commission recognize tliat it is responsible for having good medical advice, they wish to use it until they liave reason to believe that the existing machinery is at fault; and our opinion, I think, is that the existing machinery at the present time has not been shown to be at fault and is doing its work quite well. [Major J. Li. Todd.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AXD RE-EDUCATION 1071 By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Wheir dealing with the soldier whose language is French, do you generally have a board the members of which understand that language? — A. That seems to be an absolutely essential provision. Q. We have had complaints from witnesses, who have told us that a man was examined by a doctor who could not understand French at all. This witness spoke very bad English, and he complained that he could not explain his case in English as he would like to have explained it, and as ho would have been able to explain it in his owii language. Do the local boards speak French? — A. I think that the A.D.M.S. of a district would certainly see to it himself that they do when dealing with a French-speaking soldier. Q. In the province of Quebec it is all right, because all the practitioners there understand French, but in the other provinces that might not be the case. Has any change been made in that respect? — A. That is a military matter. I could not answer the question. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. What is your opinion about an examination being made by a permanent board? — A. I think it would be preferable, when it is possible to have it, as in a large military district, where a number of medical men are available who have had great experience in board work. The arrangement in France seems to me very excellent. They have, I think, only two boards in each French department; the personnel of those boards is very carefully selected. The boards sit only in the hospital centres, where they are able to obtain reports from specialists and where there is every facility that a properly equipped hospital can give for making diagnoses. The question in Canada is a rather difficult one. Ours is a big country, with a scattered population, and hospital centres are few and far between. Whenever it is necessary to do so, pensioners are brought into the centres to be examined. By the Chairman: Q. Just there, when you ask a pensioner to come into a centre to be examined, who pays his railway fare? — A. Up to the present the transportation arrangements are made under the authority of the officer commanding the military district con- cerned. Q. If the man has been discharged from the service? — A. Even though he be discharged from the service. By lion. Mr. Marcil: Q, Provision is made only for the railway fare; it does not include any other expenses? — A. At the present time, I think only the railway fare. By Mr. Middlelro: Q. What is the centre in ^Military District Xo. 2 for examination? — A. Toronto. By the Chairman : Q. Are there any other centres, besides Toronto, in District No. 2? — A. There is - one at Hamilton, and there might be centres elsewhere, if it were desirable to form them. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. There has been a great deal of criticism regarding the examination made by medical men in the different battalions, that their examination was not sufficiently strict, and that in the final examination before the boards, prior to the battalion proceeding oversells, a great many men were rejected who should undoubtedly have been rejected at the outset. Was that due to some extent, to the fact that these exam- inations were made by the local boards, instead of the regular boards? (No answer.) [Major J. L. Todd.] 1072 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERiS By Mr. Middlebro: Q. In looking at the matter from the standpoint of efficiency, would it be better to have the board composed of men of the highest standing in the medical and surgical profession? — A. You cannot get too good men for the medical board. By Air. Pardee: Q. Do I understand you to be of the opinion that if there had been a permanent board the result might, in some ways, have been different in the past? — A. Without going into the question of how the board is to be appointed, I would say that a ])ermanent board would, in my opinion, do better work than a frequently changing, temporary one. But please do not understand me as in any way saying that the existing boards have not done their work well. By Mr. Middlebro: Q. But if you were starting all over again? — A. My opinion is that a permanent board, sitting always in a hospital centre, would do better work than a temporary one. But it must be considered also whether or not it would be in the public interest, or of the men concerned, to make men come in to Toronto, say, from Owen Sound, for examination, when it would be perfectly possible to get sound medical opinion on their particular disabilities in Owen Sound; our distances are very great. By Mr. Pardee: Q. And if it were necessary to have a special examination, you could bring the man to wherever the specialist was ? — A. That is done now. Q. On the other hand, if you had a permanent board, you would also require to have some other board to which a man could appeal if he were not satisfied with the determination of that board. ? — A. If you carry out that suggestion. By Mr. Boss: Q. Here is a point that I would like to have made quite clear : a man goes before the board and is not satisfied with the decision of that board, and asks for another board; the second board confirms the decision of the first board; would your board here rest upon the decision of the two boards? — A. If we think there is the slightest shadow of doubt we would consider it, but in a case of syphilis, it would be useless to waste that man's time and the time of everybody else by holding repeated examinations. Q. It would in such cases be useless to waste the board's time, you say ? — A. Under the authority of the Order in Council, the Board of Pension Commissioners has exclusive jurisdiction over the granting of pensions. Forgetting that I am a com- missioner, I think that arrangement a most excellent one; the members of the board look upon themselves as the soldiers' trustees, and a trustee is a man who looks after the interests of his principals. By the Chairman: Q. Take the next clause (reads) : Further be it resolved that, if it be established upon proper medical authority, that any man die, as a direct or indirect, result of injuries received, or disease contracted or aggravated in the course of his duties, while in the service, his dependents shall be entitled to full benefits under the pension scheme. — A. My personal opinion is that every disability due to service, no matter when it occurs, is pensionable. Q. So that if a man came back here, and after his discharge, died, and it is shown to be directly or indirectly the result of disease contracted or injury received, while on [Major J. L. Todd.] I RECEPrWS\ TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1073 service, his widow should have a pension? — A. Out out the word "indirect," I do not understand what it means; if a man's death is due to military service his widow should, in my opinion, be pensioned. Q. No matter what time may have elapsed between the receipt of the injuries and the death? — A. That is my opinion, my personal opinion. I think that by a careful efficient medical service, the country can be sufficiently giiarded against fraud and that compensation should be given for personal detriment due to service no matter when it ensues. Q. He has the option of appealat any time if his disability is due to service, and, as you have in connection with every discharged soldier, his whole medical dossier on file, you can compare the report of a subsequent examination with the examination that would indicate his condition at the time of his discharge? — A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee : Q. Surely you would put a limit on that? — A. I would not; public interest can be safeguarded by providing a reliable medical service. There will be cases of hardship if some such provisions is not made. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. The British Pension Law has the same idea — could you give an instance in which such provision as you speak of would be necessary? — A. Take the case of a man who had received a head injury and later became subject to epileptic fits. By Mr. Ross: Q. He might be discharged from the service, when apparently well and seven or eight years afterwards he might become ill as a result of his injury? — A, As a result of the injury. Mr. MroDLEBRo: I had a ease of assault once, where a man was injured, but the result of the injuries was not disclosed until four or five years afterwards and he got $1,000 damages. By the Chairman: Q. The next clause is as follows (reads) : Further be it resolved that, in the opinion of this Convention, the pension of the widow and the widowed mother be no less than that of the totally disabled pensioner, and further that the pensions for children be materially increased." That we have already discussed, the pensions for widows and mothers'. Mr. Eoss: That resolution goes further; we discussed the widows and mothers, but that asks that the pensions be increased still further. By the Chairman: Q. What is your opinion with regard to the pension of the widow and the widowed mother, should they be the same? — A. I prefer to take it from another point of view because the question of children is introduced in this recommendation. Under the present regulations, if there are ten children, $G0 per month; I would rather see a maximum fixed limiting the total amount of pensions awardable in respect of any individual. I think it would be best to draw a pension scheme, which would say that the total amount of pension that could be awarded in respect to one soldier would be, let us say, as a basis for argument $720, or any sum you choose that would enable a man and his dependents to live decently. That sum would represent that which the soldier could earn if he were alive. Under such an arrangement, with a maximum of $720 yearly it would not be possible for a family of ten children to receive $60 per month for the children alone. Six dollars per month is, possibly, too little for a single child, but $60 for ten children is probably, too much. [Major J. L. Todd.] 28277—68 1074 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS In discussing the pensions of widows and children, the question of " overhead " household expenses must be considered. Tinder former pension proposals the French recognized the necessity for maintaining the household by providing that, when a man died, a part of his pension went to his widow, so as to increase her pension in order to enable her to meet household expenses. Possibly there may be sound basis for this recognition, and it might be well if widows with us received a little more money in order to carry on properly the overhead expenses of their households. As for children's pensions, I would like to have a sliding scale for them, as in England. There the first child gets 5/, the second gets 4/2d, and so on. These are, of course, too small amounts for Canada, but the principle is a sound one. The Chairman: The next clause deals with separation allowances, which does not come within the scope of Major Todd's labours. The next clause reads as follows (reads) : — Further, we protest against the practice of the present Pension Board Headquarters, dedvicting any part, or remitting any part of a pensioner's allow- ance to any other party save the pensioner himself, in fulfilment of any claims, asserted by either civil or military authorities and interests, as pensions are, by Act of Parliament, absolutely unatta'chable for debt. They have a grievance there? — A. I do not know just exactly what is meant; but I think that part of the complaint has been relieved by the Order in Council, P.C. 508, of February 17, 1917, under which no deductions are made from the pension on account of overpayments to soldiers during service. Under existing legislation, if a man is unworthy or improvident, and cannot look after his family, pension money is not paid to him, but to an administrator, so that it will be expended properly. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Who appoints the administrator, is he somebody appointed by the Board? — A. Yes. Q. Or is he appointed by the court? — A. That is right, or by us. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What is the course of proceeding in that case? — A. We try as much as possible to use the provincial machinery. Q. That would be all right if you do that? — A. We do our best to use it. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Do you appoint the wife as administrator in any case? — A. I do not know whether we have done so, but it would seem desirable to do so in some cases. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. You consider the matter carefully, and get all the information you can to guide? — A. We get all the information we can from the Patriotic Fund or from any other source. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Do you take any security from the administrator? — A. I cannot answer that question, I think we intend to do so in some instances. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Is there any special member of the Board who looks after that particular class of cases? — A. We have a legal adviser. Q. Who is he?— A. Mr. Archibald. Q. He lives here in Ottawa ? — A. Yes he lives in Ottawa. [Major J. L. Todd.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1075 By Mr. Ross: Q. Is he employed temporarily or permanently? — A. During our pleasure. Q. I mean is he a permanent official of the board ? — A. He gives his whole tim« to the board. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. lie is the board's legal adviser? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. You think that your medical boards should be composed, as far as possible, of men who have been overseas? — A. I would not say that; but it is very essential that men who have been overseas, and who have had overseas experience, should be members of the medical boards — for this reason, they have a practical knowledge of the aifections to which soldiers are especially subject, of shell-shock, for instance. By Mr. Middlebro: Q. Have you many cases of malingering? — A. The cases of pure malingering, that is of men who are purely attempting deception, or clean through, are extremely rare; there are cases where people suffering from shell-shock may apparently be classed under that heading, but the real malingerers are very few. The Chairman: That completes the matters referred to in the memorandum, regarding the subjects of pensions. The remainder of the memorandum of the Great War Veterans' Association deals with the allotments of land, and the Committee have not dealt with that subject this morning. Islv. Knight, secretary of the Great War Veterans' Association, is here, and before Major Todd leaves this subject, if Mr. Knight wishes to put any question he may do so. Mr. N. F. R. Knight : I do not wish to put any qyestions. I might state in justice to the Board of Pension Commissioners that much of the difficulty we have been meeting with has come through the men not understanding to what they were entitled. Many of the matters dealt with in the different resolutions have already been settled; for instance, the matter of deducting pay from a pension cheque. In many cases, men were overpaid, or their wives had drawn more money than was coming to them, or the men themselves have drawn pay, and losing their lives on the battlefield, this money was deducted from the cheque of the wife. There was a great deal of difficulty at one time in this connection, and until a few months ago many complaints were coming in. Since that time, as I understand it, the new Order in Council, No. 508, has done away with that thing entirely, and we did not know that that order had been passed by the Government. We now number over seven thousand men, and members are coming in every day; for instance, yesterday I got more than four hundred new memberships; we think we will have at least 350.000 or 400,000 members ultimately active and associate. If we could be informed of the passing of such orders, I could let all the locals know about them. We believe that the men go to us with complaints more than to the officers of the Pensions Commissioners. The Chairman : Is it expected that you will be permanently in Ottawa and act as a clearing-house for all soldiers' complaints? Mr. Ivnight: We have a permanent office in the Citizen Building in Ottawa. As time goes on we shall need much larger quarters. At the present time complaints will <--ome to me from the returned soldiers. We find that some men cro around and begin to spread reports. Many of them have grievances which they have never tried to have remedied at the proper source. If they would come to us instead of telling everybody their troubles, and making people dissatisfied and thinking that the returned soldier is not being justly treated, it would be far better. We really think that the powers now are really trying to do for the returned soldier all they possibly can do, but we do not [Major J. L. Todd.] 28277— 68i 1076 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS want the returned men to go about telling otlier people all their grievances. Let them come to us and we will take the matter up with the proper authorities. The Chairman : Thank you, Mr. Knight. Examination o^ Major Todd resumed. By the Chairman: Q. We have now the individual cases which have been cited throughout sessions cf the Committee, which, to a certain extent, will test the efficiency both of the service of the various departments concerned and the spirit of the complaints. Will you give lis briefly, Major Todd, a report in so far as your Department is affected, by the com- plaints in these forty cases. We will refer to them as " Case 1 " and so on. I will read the complaint of Case No. 1 (reads) : Examined by a medical board 28th November, 1916, discharge to date from 28th December: was recommended for pension at $16 per month; not yet received any word. Departmental reply, March 31, 1917, all papers not yet located; he is to be awarded class 4 pension, $96 for six months with effect from December 28 last. — A. This means papers were found shortly after the evidence was given. He was then immediately awarded a pension of $16 a month dating from December 29, 1916, for six months; he to be then medically re-examined. Cheque was immediately forwarded to him and it is believed that his grievance exists no longer. Q. Why were the papers difficult of location ? — ^A. They were mislaid. Q. It was a case of carelessness? — A. Yes, that is one of the cases where there was a grievance. If we had heard of the grievance earlier it would have been remedied earlier. Q. Case No. 2 (reads) : Discharged by several boards; recommended for full pension; matter taken up with district pension officer; Toronto board raised a plea of negligence; pen- sion cut down; previous boards never raised the question of negligence. — A. This is a case of syphilis, sir. The medical board held at Shorncliffe on May 15, 1916, stated that this man's disability was not due in any way to his service; it was, hemiplegia resulting from syphilitic thrombosis. He was only in France for three weeks and received no head injury. The condition would equally readily have appeared in civil life. His incapacity was total. A medical board held at the discharge depot found his disability to be right sided hemiplegia from syphilitic thrombosis. Medical board held at Central Military Convalescent Hospital, Toronto, found his incapacity almost total and suggested two months further treatment. Medical board held at Cen- tral Military Convalescent Hospital, Toronto, on November 24, 1916, found that his disease was right-side hemiplegia caused by syphilis, aggi-avated three-fifths by service. We awarded him a pension of $480 for one year, and a pension for his child. This award was made on July 21, 1916. On December 19 the medical adviser of the board found that the disability was due of luetic origin. In other words, it was due to negligence. He suggested, however, that the disease was hastened by six months, or possibly one year, by reason of his active service, and he recommended that the pension cease at the expiration of the pension year. Q. That is, that it would not have broken out for another six months or a year? — A. We gave the man the benefit of every doubt. Q. In this case the service antedated his breakdown? — A. Yes. This case has been notified that his pension will be discontinued at the expiration of the period for which it was granted. No further action is indicated under existing legislation. Q. Case 3 (reads) : A physical wreck; two fingers of his hand taken off, and the hand is drawn in; discharged at Quebec, November 17, 1916, with a gratuity of $55. Has been reboarded, and has since been granted a pension of $8 per month. '^ajor J. L. Todd.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1077 — A. There is no doubt that this case is one where the description given by the first medical board was insufficient. On getting a better description, the claim was adjusted. This man rightly complained. Q. That was an api)eal case, where the man had just grounds for appeal, and where the result of the appeal benefited him ? — A. Yes. Q. Case 4. (reads) : — Arrived in Canada, 3rd October, 1915; discharged October 7; pension 5th January, 1916, at $8 per month; given temporary employment in post office; poor health; bad case of trench rash; discharged because of defective eyesight; trench rash not mentioned in discharge; compelled to leave work for two periods, 41 days and 30 days; ordered to hospital November 25, 1916; discharged December 23; all this time income was $8; requests that case be reconsidered by Pension Commissioners for reinstatement in class 2 or as an alternative that a gratuity equal to 27 days' full pay with allowance and subsistence plu^ $37 the amount of his hospital bill be paid. What have you to say in regard to case 4? — A. It is a very long story. The medical board held at ShornclifFe, September 9, 1915, found his disability to be defective eyesight, bad teeth, and pain on walking in great toe of right foot. His disability wiis found to be one-quarter. He was awarded a pension of $75 per annum for one year from January 5, 1916. A medical board held later in 1916 found that he had a great many scars on his shoulders and back. These scars were the result of boils, and had been troubling him for nine months. There was also^a rash all over his back and shoulders. His capacity for earning a livelihood was estimated lessened 40 per cent. The board recommended that he be put on pay until such time as improvement would justify it and then be reboarded. Probably duration of present condition will be three months. On November 1, 1916, the Director General of Medical Division found that the conditions complained of bear no relation to his service, and the medical adviser to the Pensions Board concurred. The man's pension was adjusted to Class 5. You know, board of medical officers writes its proceedings and sends them to the A.D.M.S., then to the D.G.M.S., both of whom certify to its correctness. Another board was held on January 3, 1917, which said that this man had pain in walking in his right great toe, followed by pain and swelling, that this condition was much worse than before enlistment and never troubled him before enlistment. It also reported that the scars on the man's shoulders and back showed deep seated inflammation which developed in the trenches in 1915, and which prevented him work- ing three months out of the previous six. He had recently been in hospital eight weeks. This board stated that his capacity for earning a livelihood was lessened fifty per cent for six months. A special report was made with regard to his eyesight by a specialist in which it was stated: "Eyes will be o.k. viith. proper correction of glasses." On January 25 the man's pension was discontinued for the reason that there had been no disability due to or resulting from active service. The rash and boil condition was considered to have nothing whatever to do with his service. As a result of this complaint his case is being gone into carefully in a detailed way by the Commission — no appeal was ever made to the Commission. The opinion of our medical adviser is that since the staphylococcus infection was first reported on October 16, 1916, it can scarcely be said that it was not due to service, and that the reinfection from staphylococci was therefore not the result of service either, and that the theory weakened resistance by service should not apply. The whole thing is being gone into again. Q. Case 5 (reads) : Discharged from hospital with skull fractured, two by two and a half inches; is working in this condition; skull has no protection; has since been [Major J. L. Todd.] 1078 b'l'ECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS reinstated in class 2 for treatment and everything regarding his ease is proceed- ing satisfactorily. — A. This case is coming up for a pension again in the ordinary course, Q. The complaint is practically withdrawn. Case 6 (reads) :■ Gassed and wounded; discharged at Quebec, October 15, 1915; ordered to hospital, April 14, 1916, where he remained until November 5, 1916; Govern- ment paid portion of hospital charges; still owing $100.50 for period from September 9 to November 5. Pension granted $16 a month to March 31, 1917; compelled to go to work February 22 though not really fit. ' — A. This is a case which would now come under Order in Council No. 508; that is, he would receive continued treatment. The question here really should be dealt with by the military authorities who have now taken over the work of the Military Hos- pitals Commission. There is no question of pension there. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Is it a question of medical treatment? — A. Yes. Our opinion is that there is no pension question here. By th e Chairman : Q. Case No. 7 (reads) : Man's throat pierced by bullet, opened jugular vein, came out in collar bone. Discharged at Quebec, October 14, 1915. Is subject to violent fits; is a locomotive fireman but not able to follow previous work; pension $8 a month granted 21st August, 1916, for six months; Board of Pension Commissioners requested independent examination ; doctor reported permanent disability higher than his pension was based upon. — A. The case is coming up for medical re-examination. When we heard of the complaint we asked for more information. Q. This is an appeal case? — A. We are having it re-examined, sir, in order to deal with it. Q, Case No. 8 (reads) : Discharged l7th April, 1916, and paid $82 instead of $150. Eye glasses had been prescribed but never furnished; had been medically examined for catarrh, liver and kidney trouble. Health is growing worse ; receives no pension or assistance of any kind. A. This is another case of syphilis. The disease was contracted ten years ago and the man's eyes were always short in sight. By Mr. Koss (Middlesex) : Q. Has the man any grievance? — A. The Pensions Commission is of the opinion that it can take no action under existing legislation. By Hon. Mr. Marcil : Q. The statement was made in the House recently that syphilis was very extensive among the soldiers. Is that so? — A. I think it is a sound statement. Q. Is it worse when they come back? — A. It is in the whole country, sir. Hon. Mr. Marcil : Mr. Chairman, in view of the statement that syphilis is becom- ing so general, is any action being taken by the military authorities to treat these men, or are they allowed to roam through the land? The Witness: They are very carefully treated. [Major J. L. Todd.] RECEPTIOy, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATIOX 1079 By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. When they are discharged, what treatment do they get? The hon. member for West Peterboro said that half the country would be infected with syphilis before long? — A. He is not rightly informed. Soldiers will be treated in the military hospitals. Q. Yes, if they are willing to submit to the treatment. Is there any compulsory measure under w^hich you can treat them against their will? — A. You cannot put any restrictions on a discharged soldier that you will not put upon any civilian. Q. After discharge, if they get no treatment- The Cn.\iRMAX : They are civilians then. Hon. Mr. Marcil : Would it not be important for this Committee to consider this question and make some recommendation? The Chairman: As Major Todd says, if it is a disease not incident to the war in any way, no treatment could be given it that would not be given to all civilians. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. In the case we have been dealing with, was the disease contracted prior to or subsequent to overseas service? — A. It was contracted ten years ago, and he was always short-sighted. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. He got no pension ? — A. No. By the Chairman : Q. Did he go overseas? — A. I think so, I am certain he did; he came back through the discharge depot. Q. Case 9. (Reads): Arrived in Canada 23rd February, 1916; medically examined by board at Montreal and recommended for pension on basis of T5 per cent disability; Ottawa board reduced amount to 50 per cent; has been receiving only 40 per cent, or $16 per month; lost an eye when wounded, also suffering from skull fracture. — A. This is a case where his disability only permits of the man receiving the pension which was awarded to him. His disability is the loss of the right eye, and he complains of weakness and poor vision of the left eye. The medical specialist says that there is practically nothing wrong with his left eye. Q. He is receiving a pension of $16 a month or 40 per cent? — A. His disability is estimated at 50 per cent. If there were 10 classes of pension he would probably receive a slightly higher pension. Q. Case No. 10 (reads) : Discharged at Quebec, 6th August, 1915, pensioned 28th January, 1916, at $132 per annum for one year; pension readjusted May 13, at $33 per month, and again on 21st December, 1916, from old scale to new scale. Complains that he did not receive sufficient separation allowance; had been paid $90 separation allowance from 1st March to 15th July, 1916, whilst under treatment; has to collect separation allowance due him for the time he was put back in hospital. — A. This is a case for treatment, sir. Q. He complains that he did not receive sufficient separation allowance. This is not a pension case, but if you can give us any information regarding his complaint, please do so. — A. It would not occur in the future. The procedure under Order in Council P.O. 508 of February 24, 1917, is not retroactive, so that this man has appa- rently no means of obtaining pay of separation allowance unless the Militia Depart- [Major J. L. Todd.] 1080 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS ment makes it a special case. If he gets treatment in future, he will be replaced upon pay and allowances in the usual way. Q. Case No. 11 (reads) : Eecommended in England for third class pension for one year; discharged at Quebec 25th September, 1915; his leg broke out after two months' work, ordered to hospital ; at hospital three months ; bed patient five months and kept two months longer. Keceived six months' pension in Canada and a pension cheque for $11 while in hospital. Wants to know why he was not paid for period while in hospital. Departmental reply; " This man's disability, arthritic was not due to military service, given free treatment in a convalescent home, and, under the circumstances, he was not entitled to draw pay and allowance." — A. I will read the memoranda, sir (reads) : This man was awarded a third class pension from December 22, 1915. He claims that he was cut off the pension list without being re-boarded, in March, 1917. This is not a true statement of the case. He was actually cut off from pension on October 1, 1916, on the authority of the medical board dated June 7, 1916, which stated that he had no disability due to service. The decision in this case is accurate, as the arthritis from which he was suffering was not due to his service, although he was given free treatment in a convales- cent home. The point there is, his disability was not due to service. Q. Was it aggravated by service? — A. I will look up the case; there is no disa- bility due to his service. Case 12 (reads) : Discharged in Montreal, pensioned at $8 per month; got two cheques total- ling $20.10; had been overpaid on L.P.C. and pension money stopped. Depart- mental reply : " After this man returned to Canada a last pay certificate was received from England, showing a debit balance of $21.30. This was ' on account of stoppage for venereal disease.' Complaiiat further sets forth that he has not been given statutory increase at Customs Department where he has worked for five years." In case a man is confined to a hospital because of venereal disease contracted whilst in service, does his pay cease while in hospital? — A. It does not cease, sir. When the war started a sum of 15 cents a day was deducted from his pay for his treatment, that sum was afterwards increased to 50 cents a day. Q. If the man, then who had been so debited should be killed, would that be deducted from his wife's pension? — A. Under the present legislation, no; no deduc- tion is made from the wife's pension. Q. What was the provision of the old law? — A. Nothing, except that all over- payments made to the pensioned man were deducted, that was all. Q. But that is no longer done? — A. I am not sure about that, if the man is in debt I think it is deducted from the man himself. Q. The next case is No. 13. — A. The evidence in this case shows no pension complaint, but only a complaint with regard to his discharge documents. This is a question for the military authorities to answer. Q. Case No. 14 (reads) : "Enlisted 9th November, 1914; discharged 14th October, 1915; pension granted, $21 per month for one year; pension stopped before he was reboarded; reboarded 16th February, but has not heard since. Sumbitted to Department [Major J. L. Todd.] March 31." RECEPTWS, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1081 — A. This man was returned to Canada medically unfit owing to destruction of right eye and decreased vision of the left eye, following gunshot wound. Medical Board which examined him at Shornclitfe, on July 26, 1915, found him to be totally incapacitated. The Medical Board held at Quebec, on October 11, 1915, concurred as to the disability, but were of opinion that the man was incapacitated to the extent of three-quarters, with a possible improvement to one-half. He was awarded a second degree pension under the old scale, for one year, from January 11, 191G, which was later adjusted to a class III pension for that period. On December 6, 1910, the General Officer Commanding Military District No, 5 was requested to have this man medically re-examined. On December 18» that officer advised this office that the man had not reported, althoug-h he had been written to twice. On February 22, 1917, the General Officer Commanding Military District JNo. 4 sent in a medical report. Up to that time the Commission had been unable to discover this man's address. Continuance of pension at the rate of class IV went forward on the 1st j\rarch, 1917. A cheque for $178.29, being the amount of pension due to date, and adjustment for the past pension period, was mailed to him on March 12. Ilis com- plaint seems, therefore, now to be covered. There is apparently no evidence before the Returned Soldiers' Committee on this case. It was brought to the attention of our board by the Militia Department. By Mr. Boss: Q. I see by that report that the pension which was at first classed No. Ill was reduced by the Board to Class IV, why was that? — A. You can understand there is a period of accommodation during which a man becomes accustomed to his disability ; since the disability is greater during that period a larger pension is given during it, but the pension that is given when the period of ax3Commodation is past, is given only for the disability that then exists, therefore, it is reduced. He was re-examined on February 22 by the General Officer Commanding, and the degree of disability at that time was not as great as it was when the Board was first held. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. And he was given the higher pension right down to that date? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. The next case is No. 15 (reads) : "Discharged 22nd September, 1915, as physically unfit ; given three months pay ($50) pending settlement; given first degree pension for one year; medi- cally examined 13th December, and rated as three-quarters disabled; pension reduced to $16 per month, and so notified January 16, 1917; underwent seven operations in the hospital and unable to follow any occupation; considers he is entitled to full pension. Submitted to Department ^farch 31." — A. This is a very long case. It is being investigated, and his claim will be given reconsideration as soon as the result of the investigation is received. It is a case of nerve- suture, and it is very possible that the man may not get his final pension for some time. Q. Case Xo. 16. — Overpayment, claims that no explanation is given and considered lie should have been allowed to look at receipts and ascertain that he has been overpaid. — A. The complaint in this case is the same as that of No. 12, and the remarks in that connection apply to this case as well. Q. Case No. 17 (reads) : " Badly wounded about the legs at battle oi St. Julien, April 23. 1915 — has to use crutches — has to lay off from work from time to time — pension $8 per month — witness submits that this man should be granted a higher pension." [Major J. L. Todd.] 1082 SPECIAL COMMITri'JE-C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS — A. This man was granted a pension of $8 a month, as dating from September 16, 1916, for one year. His disability is described as "foot-drop" sciatic nerve. Some time ago the wound in his heel re-opened ; he refused treatment in the Military Hospital and was then informed that he could have treatment at his own home at his own expense. Froui the papers he probably has all the pension he is entitled to, but the man's case has been re-opened, and instructions have been given for further medical examination, with the object of discovering whether his pension should be increased or not. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Is it the custom to allow the man to be treated by his own physician? — A. Speaking in general terms, I think it would be highly inadvisable to allow men to choose their own physician. Q. There are some cases where the men would have greater faith in their own physician than in the military physician.— A. My opinion is, and I hold it very strongly, that in a matter where public money is being paid, the Government should have the right to say precisely what treatment should be given, and who should give it. By the Chairman: Q. Case No. 18 (reads) : " Disfigured for life. His jaw is turned sideways — pension $8 per month. Witness submits that a higher pension should be paid this man. since for the loss of one's nose, a returned soldier is placed in a higher class." — A. This is a case where, perhaps, there is some sound foundation for complaint; the description given might permit of a higher pension being awarded than the amount given and another examination is being made with the object of discovering whether the pension shoiild not be increased or further treatment given. By Hon. Mr. Marcil : Q. Has the attention of the Pension Board been called to the work that is being done in France, in the way of restoring disabled men who have been disfigured? — ^A. There is a special hospital for that treatment under the English service. Q. Is there any special provision or facilities in Canada for the treatment of men who have been badly disfigured? — A. I do not know whether there is or not. Q. Have any representations been made as to the necessity for the provision of such facility? — A. I think that will be done by the Medical Corps. General Jones is responsible for seeing t"hat the men get the best possible treatment. Q. Case No. 19 (reads) : Teeth knocked out — bullet in hip — pension $8 per month — suggested that his pay should be higher. — A. This c^se is the same as No. 18. Q. Case No. 20 (reads) : Medical report declared this man insane — had his palate removed while he was a soldier — right side partially paralyzed; deaf of both ears — has a wife and family — no pension and he is a public charge — has been discharged from hospital. — A. This is a sad case. The medical board at Bramshott, on January 24, 1916, stated that this man's disability was due to infection, and would lessen his capacity three- quarters. It said nothing more than that. The medical board at the discharge depot states the cause of disability as being chronic otitis media developed while on service at Valcartier. His hearing is markedly defective, in both ears. Vision of right eye poor, unable to count fingers at three feet. Degree of incapacity one-half, due to [Major J. (L. Todd.] RECEPTIOX, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1083 service. Medical board held on June 21, found him to be suffering from chronic otitis media, laryngitis, and possible imbecility. The origin of the imbecility dated from since his return to Canada. There is a suggestion of syphilitic origin, and a recom- mendation that he be sent to the Provincial Hospital for insane for observation. Medical board held August 1, 1916, gives the disability as dementia, defective vision and deafness. Gives as cause of the disability, alcohol. Disability total. On August 30, our medical adviser felt that this man's insanity was due to negligence, but suggested that something be done for the children. A letter was received from the Children's Aid Society on September 21, from which the following is quoted: The little children of this man were in absolute destitute circumstances when taken over by the society. The father is mentally sick as a result of alcoholism, and the mother morally unfit to care for or protect the children. They were in a starving and sickly condition when we found them. — A Medical board was held on this man on October 16, 1916, which found his disability to be dementia due to alcohol, and recommended that owing to his unsatisfactory home conditions, he be sent to the almshouse. Class IV pension was awarded to this man. By Hon. Mr. MarciJ : Q. Awarded to whom? — A. To the man. Q. But to whom was it paid? — A. An administrator was appointed to receive and administer the pension and to see that the man's children were properly cared for. The Chairman : The man's condition is due to his own abuse. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. And he should never have been admitted in the first place ? — A. Possibly not. By the Chairman : Q. Case 21 (reads) : Discharged 31st July, 1916— gratuity $100 — became physically unfit and was returned to Canada — has a wife and three children — has hardly earned anything for seven months — is suffering from locomotor ataxia, and is growing worse. Before enlistment he was earning $75 per month. —A. The medcal board at Shorncliffe, on May 26, 1916, stated that the causation of this man's disability was syphilis, and found him disabled one-quarter for six months. Medical board held at discharge depot concurred June 27, 1916. Our medical adviser gave as his opinion, on July 22, that active sen-ice had, at the most, only hastened the onset of the disability and recommended a class VI gratuity of $100. In the original medical board, it is stated that this man never got beyond the base in France. As the disability was only slightly hastened by active service, a gratuity of $100 seems a just award. Q. Case 22 (reads) : " Awarded gratuity of $25 — pension Commissioners letter says, ' This is a final settlement in respect of your disability.' Medical Board's finding in this case was: General weakness; pains in the arms and legs; neurasthenia, following operation for hemorrhoid, contracted on active service. "Witness submits as a complaint that in such cases no intimation of appeal, or any means of appeal is conveyed in the communication sent." — A. The Medical Board says that it found this was a healthy, strong appearing man. very well developed and rectal examination shows nothing abnormal. His disability was rated at 1/10 and he was therefore granted a gratuity of $25. The treatment which he [Major J. L. Todd.] 1084 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS had received had practically cured him. It is not considered that the award will be changed upon re-examination, but the file will be again carefully considered by the Commission. The witness complains that no memorandum of appeal is conveyed in the communication sent. It is not thought necessary to state that a man is entitled to appeal. In accordance with 'Section 5, of the Pensions Regulations, P.O. 1334 of June 3, 1917, a man is entitled to present his claim for re-consideration whenever he is dissatisfied with the award made. This man has this right. Q. Case 23 (reads) : " Paid a pension of $132 a year from January 5, 1916, to April 26, 1916— was in hospital during this period; had an operation performed on his nose. Witness submits that man should have received pay and allowances, while in hospital." — A. This man is claiming on account of an injury to the- nose, nothing is said about such an injury in the original Board. This man's pension was awarded in accordance with the disability which was originally described as arising during service, that is to say loss of three fingers on the right hand and limited movement of the second and little fingers of the same hand, also pain and swelling of the left foot from frost- bite. On May 16, 1916, the Adjutant-General wrote to the Officer Commanding Mili- tary District No. 2, and stated that before pay could be issued, it would be necessary to determine whether the injury to the nose, the abnormality of lungs, or the rheumatism had originated on service. No information could be obtained regarding these condi- tions, and therefore, the man was not replaced on pay. The man has also complained to this Board, that he is not rated high enough. From medical evidence before this Board it was not considered possible to award this man a higher pension; nevertheless the case is being reconsidered. Q. Case No. 24 (reads) : " Discharged while in a condition which could be improved by medical treat- ment — has been a bed-patient for two weeks — no pension and no pay and allow- ances — is a married man." — A. This man has no complaint from the point of view of pension. The Army Medical authorities will no doubt give information with respect to his complaint, that he was discharged in a condition that could be improved by treatment. Q. Is there anything to show whether he should have received further treatment? — A. We cannot give more pension than he is receiving, for the existing disability, under the present legislation ; but if he requires more treatment he can always get it. Q. Case 25 (reads) : "Eeceived a communication granting him a pension of $132 for one year from April 1, 1916. Later was informed his pension would be increased. WiU get a gratuity instead of pension. Witness submits that several of such cases are on record." — A. His pension seems to be a just one for the amount of pensionable disability that he is suffering under. By Mr. Ross: Q. It seems to me that the amount of pension is insufficient in the case of a man who has totally lost the hearing of one ear. — A. I am of your opinion. By the Ohairman: Q. Case No. 26 (reads) ; " Pension reduced from $16 per month to $8, has not received any pension for the current year. Witness writes there are several cases of this kind. In some cases men have had their pensions stopped and are being paid a gratuity." [Major J. L. Todd.] RECEPTIOy, TREATMEyT AVD RE-EDUCATIOX 1085 Case No. 27 (reads) : "Received two statements of his pay and allowance whi<;h did not compare." • — A. This is not a pension complaint, but is one with regard to monies paid to the man. And Case No. 28 is one of the same sort. Q. Case No. 29 (reads) : " Discharged in August, 1916, with a gratuity of $75. His case subsequently reported to Major, who ordered him to hospital ; kept for six weeks — suffers from loss of memory, general lassitude — is married and has seven children." — A. This man is suffering from general debility and is incapacitated in locomotion by progressive locomotor ataxia, due to syphilis aggravated to a small extent while on active service. The award of a gratuity of $75, was all that could be given in this case. Q. Case No. 30 (reads) : " Discharged as medically unfit — pensioned January 20, 1916, at $132 per annum, under the old scal^— reboardcd January 16, 1917, and was awarded a gratuity of $50, informing him that pension was discontinued. Witness submits ' how could permanent disability be applied in the first place, if twelve months after he was supposed to be just temporarily disabled?' Man is married with three children — bones in feet broken, — cannot follow an occupation except where he can sit." — A. This case is being considered again, and it may be that a further medical examin- ation may be requested. Q. Case No. 31 (reads) : " Has five wounds in side ; lung penetrated by shrapnel — numerous shrap- nel wounds in right leg, muscle of left forearm gone in all 42 wounds — pension $8 per month from December 27, 1916, till December 31, 1917. He is a mar- ried man." — A. The opinion of the medical board is that the re-opening of the case would serve no useful purix)se. The award is considered just and proportionate to the disability actually existing. A man may have forty-two or eighty wounds, the number does not matter; it is the ultimate disability which is taken into consideration in granting pension, not the suffering through which a man has gone. , Q. They are all flesh wounds. Case 32 (reads) : Stomach trouble caused by gas inhalation; often sick and weak; claims GovernmenU should give mediciil treatment; board at Folkestone gave six months; was discharged in two months; no pension. — A. There is no record of any gas inhalation in this case. A misstatement is made. The board said he would be cured in three months and not in six. There is no statement here of gas. We are of the opinion that the award is just. Q. Case 33 (reads) : Discharged 3rd November, 1916, but discharge reads 3rd December; received cheque for $50 on 3rd January. 1917, as gratuity in lieu of pension. Suffers from chronic muscular rheumatism and a pyorrheal condition of the teeth, according to a specialist's certificate. Perfectly justified in seeking help from the Militia Department. — A. From the examination of many boards, it was considered that a gratuity of $50 was all that could be awarded to this man. The case is, however, still under consideration. This man has been medically boarded no less than six times since the 30th November, 1915. [Major J. L. Todd.] Q. Case 34 (reads) : Discharged at Quebec, October 14, 1915, with right leg amputated above the knee. Received three months' pay till January, 1916; was pensioned at $16 per month; raised later to $24 per month. Got a limb on June 3, 1916, it has fallen off twice; the screws seem to get loose; the knee joint makes a lot of noise which is embarrassing. — A. It is considered that no action is indicated in this case by the Pensions Board. Q. He complains of the character of his artificial limb, which has twice fallen off, and of the knee joint making a noise which is embarrassing. Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : That is a Hospitals Commission matter. By the Chairman : Q. Case 35 (reads) : Discharged as medically unfit; received pension of third degree, $133 per annum for §ix months from 11th February, 1916; re-examined August 26, 1916. Ear trouble began discharging May 1, 1916; disability not permanent, aggravated on account of mastoid; received local treatment for eight weeks; pension paid $66. Discontinued August 10, 1916, when cheque was received for ,$22.79. — A. This a long story, sir. The man is over age. His disability is senility and lack of teeth, these are the reasons for discharge. Q. Has he ever seen active service? — A. Yes, five days in the trenches. The opinion of our medical adviser is: "that, at present, the pensioner is suffering from mastoid disease not due to service." Continuation of pension is not indicated. Q. Case 36. This was the case of a man injured on a recruiting tour? — A. I have not been able to obtain the file of this case; but it does not seem to be a pensions case. The Chairman : I have information regarding Case 37, and will file this letter (reads) : Department of Militia and Defence^ Ottawa, Canada, April 26, 1917. Dear Sir Herbert Ames, — With reference to your letter of the 21st instant, I find that Case 37 was discharged (Class 1) on the 2'5th of January last, as a special case, and that a cheque for $127.95, balance of his pay and allowances to date of discharge, was mailed to the District Paymaster, Military District No. 12, Regina, Sask., Case 37, on discharge, having given his address as Young, Subsequently, Case 37 having informed the Department of his present address, Toronto, a communication was sent to him at that address notifying him of the action taken by the Department, and instructing him to apply to the District Paymaster, Military District No. 12, for his cheque. Case 37 is also entitled to the bonus of three months' additional pay, author- ized under the Order in Council recently passed, and he will receive the same in due course so soon as the necessary arrangements for the payment of the bonus have been completed. Yours very truly, Sir Herbert Ames, M.P., Eugene Fiset. Room, 40, East Block, Ottawa, This is a case where the man turned up in Toronto and his cheque had been sent to Saskatchewan where his address was supposed to be. [Major J. L. Todd.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1087 By the Chairman: Q. Now, Case 3&. — A. This is also a case for which I could not obtain the file; it does not seem to be a pensions case. The Chairman : This man complained that he could not get employment, that he was treated with scant courtesy by Messrs. Peter Lyall and Sons when he tried to get employment there. I took this matter up with the Soldiers' Employment Commission at Montreal, and have received a reply from which the following is an extract. (Reads) : I take pleasure in stating that Mr. Wright, who is in charge of P. Lyall's is giving the Commission entire satisfaction as he never fails, as far as we know, to report on the soldiers he engages, and we could not ask him to do more than what he is doing. That is the end of the 40 cases. By Mi: Boss (Middlesex) : Q. There are two things in regard to injuries to the ear and eye where, it seems to me, the pension is most unjust. For total injury to one eye, or total loss of hearing in one ear, a man gets only a gratuity; and the pension awarded for total deafness seems to me most inadequate. I would like to have your opinion of it. If I understand your evidence, you consider the awards are too small. What is the practice in England, can you tell us? — A. Yes, I can. Canada has a great opportunity. In devising our pension legislation we can meet necessities as they demand almost unrestricted by precedent. We have no past legislation. In France and Great Britain past legislation has given men acquired rights to certain pensions for certain disabil- ities. In France, legislation is influenced by precedents going back to 1831. French law consequently, gives disability ratings for injuries which are, in some cases, abso- lutely absurd. There is only one way of ascertaining the extent of the disability resulting from a given in juiy and that is through a knowledge of precisely what has happened to a large number of individuals, suffering from that disability, who have gone out into life and attempted to make their way in competition with their fellows. In order that there may be uniformity in pension awards and in order that those awards may be properly proportioned to the extent of the disabilities for which they compensate, it is essential that a Pensioning Body should be guided by a scale of disabilities. In some respects I am quite sure that the percentages of disability at which certain injuries are rated in our existing legislation are improper. For example, the loss of one eye and total deafness are both considered to entail a disability of from 40 per cent to 59 per cent. These are not equivalent disabilities. The loss of one eye entails a disability of less than 40 per cent and I am convinced that total deafness should be rated at more than 40 per cent. I think that total deafness should be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 60 per cent. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Is it as high as 60 per cent in England? — A. Yes. My opinion is that it should be as high as 60 per cent. Q. For total deafness? — A. Yes. Q. For deafness in one ear, what would you say about that ? — A. The rating seems low since it brings only a gratuity. Q. Do you think that is sufficient?— A. I think so, yes. Q. For deafness in one ear? — A. Yes. Q. Don't you think you ought to take into consideration the percentage of chances of injury? Supposing a man is totally deaf in one ear, and he receives a blow on the other ear which makes him totally disabled? — A. In order to provide for cases of that sort, I should like to see some scheme established by which the [Major J. L. Todd.] 1088 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Government would bear the increased cost to disabled men of insurance and of other services where price is dependent upon normal probability. The normal prob- ability of- a disabled man in respect of accident or length of life is altered by reason of his disability. For that reason, the cost of such service is altered — usually increas- ed — for him. Some arrangement should be made by which it would be possible for disabled men to obtain such services with no more difficulty than they may be obtained by normal men. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Do you really think a gratuity for deafness in one ear is sufficient? — A. I would not say a gratuity, sir. Q. That is all they get. — A. You remember in the suggested scheme, I have allowed something more than a gratuity. I think total deafness in one ear entails a disability of about 10 per cent and should give title to a pension of about $2 a month. Mr. MiDDLEBRO : Under the arrangement of that scheme, it would also put such a man high. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. Would you consider that the complete loss of hearing in one ear would be a tenth of a disability? — A. I think about a tenth. Witness discharged. APPENDIX 1. Table re Men from Overseas. 2. Letter re Discharge Paper Issued at Quebec. 3. Letter re Veterans' Club, Victoria, B.C. 28277—69 1089 Finance Dei'autment, Ottawa^ Canada, Room 40, East Block, April 30, 1917. Sub-Committee on Printing Evidence, Returned Soldiers' Committee, House of Commons, Ottawa, Orit. Gentlemen: — I herewith enclose carefully worked out tables of figures that have been compiled by Mr. W. F. Moore of the Military Hospitals Commission. They show the following: Monthly rate of Return from January, 1915, to the end of the year; classification of men for immediate discharge without pension, men who are convalescent, and men whose medical treatment is complete, also a condensed statement of the disabilities and cases other than medical unfitness; the degree of disability awarded by Medical Board at the Port of disembarkation and the country of birth of the 13,826 men of whom they have record. I think these figures are of value, and with the concurrence of your sub-committee would suggest that they be printed. Yours sincerely, HERBERT B. AMES, Chairman, Committee on Returned Soldiers. MILITARY HOSPITALS COMMISSION. The following tables of figures have been compiled from records of men returning from overseas kept (a) by the representative of the Canadian Patriotic Fund at the Discharge Depot, Quebec, during the period from May, 1915, to October of that year, and (b) by the Commission for the period from October, 1915, to March 31, 1917. 2. Previous to May, 1915, about 550 men returned from overseas through the port of Halifax, but as the M.H.C. was not in existence at that time nor had the Patriotic Fund any representative, there are no records available from which figures can be obtained. The total number of men whose records have been analysed is 13,826. A certain number of men, some of whom returned for such reasons as stoppage of work- ing pay, etc., are not included. There are also, doubtless, a number of men who returned on furlough and who did not go back to the front, either receiving appoint- Mients in Canada or breaking down in health and taking their discharge. The total number of men returned, according to the Militia Department, excluding those who returned during the winter of 1914-15, through Halifax, above referred to. is 14,176. 3. Table I shows the rate of return per month since May, 1915. 1091 28277— 69J ' 1092 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Table I. — Monthly Eate of Return. 1915. 1916. 1917. - January 64 150 182 343 396 476 278 268 509 636 1,551 1,040 784 16 1,5G9 868 2,151 1 , 783 1.050 March 2,494 Anril 396 May 47 36 96 93 226 703 977 228 139 523 314 July 364 602 862 October 2,254 November 2,017 December 1,012 155 2,609 6,629 4,588 13,826 4. Table II shows the classification of the same men according to the Military Hospitals Commission system as follows : — Class 1. — Men for immediate discharge without a pension. (a) Unfit for overseas service, but capable to take up their previous civilian occupation. (h) Disability not the result of service or involving claim as the result of or aggravation by service. Class 2. — -Men whose condition may be benefited by further medical treatment or rest in a convalescent home, hospital, or sanatorium. Class 3. — Men having a permanent disability which would not be benefited by further medical treatment (such disability due to or aggravated by service) and whose cases will immediately be considered by the Pensions Board with a view to pension. No Class, refers to such men as those returned on stoppage of working pay, special service, bandsmen, etc., wherever these cases were not classed as invalids. Table II. — Classification. 1915. 1916. 1917. - Class I 260 2,010 134 101 104 1,687 3,814 568 545 15 944 3,300 126 218 2,891 "II .... 9,124 " III 828 No Class 864 119 2,609 6,629 4,588 13.826 5. Table III shows the reason for the return to Canada. It may be explained that the word "Overage" does not mean men over 45 exclusively, but corresponds to the wording of the disability as given by the Medical Board at the point of dis- embarkation. The same remarks apply to the heading " Underage." The heading RECEPTIOS, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1093 •'WouDcls'' includes all men described by the Medical Board as having been wounded. It must be remembered, however, that quite a number of men were classified as suffer- ing from shell shock, gas, rheumatism, etc., who have in the past suffered from wounds causing no disability at the time of disembarkation. The headijig ''Insanity" includes those men designated as suffering from insanity, dementia, and mania, but does not include a great number of men who might have been called temporarily unbalanced. "Other Causes" includes all other disabilities and also men returned under special authority; to complete studies; undesirables; stoppage of working pay; for special service, bandsmen, etc. The latter classifications are analysed in Table IV. Blind and major amputations are already included in the figures of the wounded and are merely given as a sub-classification. Table III. — Disabilities Necessitating Return to Canada. 1915. 1916. 1917. - 3 7 998 73 11 1,447 70 783 170 956 378 114 3,934 294 500 403 1,560 219 55 1,685 166 1,286 508 Under age Wounds 3,514 670 180 Tuberculosis 7,066 No record 530 2,609 6,629 4,588 13,826 X.B. — It may be noted that nine blind men have returned and 177 men who have suffered major amputations. These are included under wounds in above table. Table IV analyses the reason for return of 816 men who were included in the total of 13,826 examined. This group comprises only men who were fit and who had no claim on the Government. Table IV. — Classification of 816 Men Returned for Causes other than Medical Unfitness. — 1915. 1916. 1917. - 25 27 58 28 ' 11 4 391 50 62 12 65 62 Stoppage of working pay 69 70 9 460 ( 'omniissions, etc. . ... .... 120 Handsnien and No record ... . 71 110 546 160 816 1094 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— G.E.F.— RETURNED fOLDIERS Table V. — Degree of Disability Awarded by Medical Board at Port of Disembarkation. — 1915. 1916. 1917. - From nil to 25% disability 1,372 671 98 263 205 4,061 1,242 269 876 181 1,985 1,010 560 836 197 7,418 26% to 50% 2,923 927 51% to 75% 76% to 100% 1 975 No record 583 2,609 6,629 4,588 13.826 Table VL— Countrj- of Birth. — 1915. 1916. 1917. - 880 939 252 121 21 2,574 2,517 620 287 55 1,779 1,767 434 185 31 5,233 England 5,223 Scotland 1 306 Ireland 594 Wales 107 Total " Old Country " 1,333 3,479 2,418 7,230 U. S. A 84 28 4 15 84 181 199 77 31 30 103 136 198 45 6 37 62 43 481 150 41 Russia 82 Others 249 360 2,609 6,629 4,588 13,826 Brigade Headquarters, Armouries, Hamilton, Ont., March 23rd, 1917. Tlie Soldier's Discharge. — Paper issued at Quebec. My Dear Sir Herbert: — I think that someone's attention should be drawn to this matter, and as you are interesting yourself in returned soldiers' needs, I turn to you. The discharge paper as issued, and I have seen some, is a very poor and inadequate documentary evidence of the soldier's service. 1. The paper is of a very poor quality and cannot last over a few months wear and tear, and cannot he renewed. 2. The particulars of the soldiers service is poorly set forth. 3. The document is inadequately signed by the Officer i/c Depot. In fact some I have seen only bear the initials of the Officer i/c Depot. Considering the value that will be attached to these documents in years to come, either by the man himself, or his family, there is great room for improvement along the lines I have criticized. WILLIAM HENDRIE, Li.-Col. RECEPTIO'S, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1095 The Veterans' Club of British Columbia, Victoria, B.C., April 7, 1917. Sir Herbert T. Ames, M.P. Dear Sir: — I am directed by the Executive Committee of the Veterans' Club of British Columbia to send you a book setting forth the aims and object of this associa- tion, together with a copy of a letter from H.R.H. The Duke of Connaught to Lt.-Col. Andrew C. P. Haggard, who with ^Nfajor Seymour Rowlinson founded the Club more than a year ago. The Committee take this action in consequence of some remarks, stated to have been made to you by ~Mt. H. W. Hart, the Victoria delegate of the Returned Soldiers' Association to Toronto, in answer to a question put to him by yourself, and which appeared in the columns of "The Victoria Times" of the 4th inst., a marked copy of which I send you by same mail. The Committee strongly resent the statement made to you by Mr. Hart, and the inference implied in his words, and emphatically deny that The Club is used for political, or any other purposes save those for which it was established, and which are set forth in the rules. At the time the Club was founded there was no other organization of the sort in Victoria, and returned soldiers were made welcome to the Club Rooms. At the time, some of the returned men wished for an exclusive club, hence the formation of "The Returned Soldiers' Association" in Victoria, principally through Mr. Hart, although we still retain as members several returned men, a returned soldier being one of the Executive. Trusting that you will understand, and appreciate the reason for troubling you with this statement. I am, dear sir, Your obedient servant, (Sgd.) ROBERT A. WICKS, Secretary. minijTes of evidence House of Commons, Room yOl, Friday. May 18, .1917. The Committee met at 10 o'clock a.m., the Chairman, Sir Herbert Ames, pre- siding. Members present: Sir Herbert Ame:^, Chairman, Mr. 11. B. Bennett, Hon. Charles Marcil. Hon. Charles Murphy and ^fr. Y. F. Pardee. ^fr. J. W. BouDEX, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. You are the paymaster general of the ililitia Department for the Dominion of Canada? — A. Yes. Q. And the head of all the activities of the Government that cover pay and allowances to the enlisted men both jroing and overseas? — A. That is correct, sir. Q. This Committee has been sitting for some weeks and ha? examined some 80 witnesses, among others a number of returned soldiers and repre5?ntatives of returned soldiers. These gentlemen have come before us and have been asked by the Com- mittee to state any grievances that they may have personally or may know of con- cerning others, and a very large number of their grievances deal -with matters of pay and allowances. We have undertaken to extract a memoranda from the evidence some of which I -will read to you. This will simply give you an idea of the general trend of the criticism, and as Mr. Fraser and General Jones are to follow you, you will all be able to base your evidence on the criticisms which have been made. (Criticisms read to the witnesses). The CiiAiiiMAN : I have read these statements by witnesses who have appeared before us because there are four gentlemen here who are going to appear as witnesses so that they have all had an opportunity of hearing what complaints have been made and in order to give point to my remark that the time and attention of this Committee has been very largely taken up, throughout this inquiry, with almost universal com- plaints, from one end of the countr:\- to the other, from soldiers regarding dissatisfac- tion as to pay and allowances, and that leads to the point upon which we shall be glad to hear what you have to say. The Witness : Would it not be well to take up now these specific cases ? That, i think, is the best way of getting at the bottom of this difficulty. It is one thing for people to come forward here and make wholesale charges against the Pay Department and it is quite another thing to prove it. Of course there has been delay in the past, particularly with regard to the first batch of returned soldiers: I think there were about 1,500, at all events a large number came out, and the Department was not noti- fied by the overseas authorities of the departure of these troops. Consequently the men arrived and they were scattered all over Canada l>efore any action could be taken. By the Chairman : Q. When was that ?— A. That was the first lot that arrived. Q. About what time was that? — A. Shortly after the he^\T fighting at Ypres. Q- That would be in the spring of 1915? — A. I think it was, I could not say ex- actly, but it was about that time. But in my opinion, as far as I can learn, the work of paying off has been fairly well expedited. They have been making charges about the delay and I asked Captain Aumond to give a statement of the last half dozen ships 1097 1098 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS tliat arrived, the date the ship arrived, the date on which he had prepared the accounts and passed them on to the Paymaster for payment. That statement will speak for it- self. Another thing I notice that Mr. W. E. Turley, I think it is, says he did not get any pay for four months after his arrival here. That, I think, is the sum and substance of his statement. Q. He says : "• had to wait four months for pay after return to Canada," at pages 771, 772 and 7S0 of the evidence. — A. Now we will take up the case of Sergeant Turley. I have a memorandum here prepared by Captain Aumond, Captain Pay- master Casualties, dated May 17, 1917, which gives the details of this man's case, as follows : " Xo. Jfl'ilO—Sgt. ll'm. E. Turley, Class III (Pension). (1) Arrived at Quebec, December 26, 1915, was paid $80 by Discharge Depot, Quebec. (2) Head(iuarters adjusted his account to January 31, 1916, and issued a cheque on January 23 for $48.86. (3) Pension took eifect February 1, 1916. (4) Order in Council, P.C. 11-1526, authorizing pay and allowances during period of treatment, viz, to September 17, 1916. (5) May 20, 1916, account adjusted in accordance with above Order in Council and a cheque for $265.35 forwarded. (6) Jime pay issued June 16, 1916, $89. (7) July pay issued July 22, 1916, $76.10. (8) August pay issued August 30, 1916, $76.10. (9) Pension re took effect September 18, 1916. (10) In the payments by this office of pay and allowances, paragraphs 5-6- 7-8, the amounts of pension paid by Canadian Pension Paymaster were deducted. (11) This account was re-adjusted in accordance with order issued in December, 1916, relative to subsistence and Separation Allowance, affecting soldiers returned to Canada prior to March 1, 1916, and cheques of $14.12 pay- able to Wm. E. Turley,. and of $64.17, payable to Mrs. Wm. E. Turley, were issued January 17, 1917. (12) Prompt payments, were, in every instance, effected by this office. (Sgd.) A. AUMOND, Captain Paymaster Casualties. Q. He was reinstated in hospital? — A. Reinstated in hospital. Q. Was there any time when for four months after his return he did not get any pay? — A. It is an absolute falsehood — absolutely a falsehood. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. He says : " I waited for four months for my first pay after I returned to Canada." — A. I have given you the dates on which the several payments were made to him ; immediately after his arrival he was given $80 cash. By the Chairman: Q. Have you those cheques endorsed by him? — A. We can get you those cheques. Q. The reason I asked you that question is there is no doubt about his getting them? — A. He got the cheques all right. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. There would be some amount, perhaps, paid him that he thought was pension while it was really pay, would that be the explanation? — A. No, it is merely a mis- [Mr. J. W. Borden.] RECEPTIOX, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1099 statement on his part, and a misrepresentation on his part, tliere was no delay. The only explanation I can give of Turley's statement is that he is referring to this second adjustment, hut he does not state that he {rot pay and allowances and pension during the intervening period. Hon. Mr. Murphy : He left fhe impression with the Committee that he had not. The Witness: We will take Trooper Brown's case, that is one we looked up. Private Brown returned to Canada in July, 1916, on furlough, to Septemher 1, 1916. He had three months furlough. While on furlough authority was granted for his transfer to the Military Hospitals Commission for duty, which was effective on the 1st January, 1017. His account was adjusted hy the casualty pay office up to and including Dcccnihcr 31. 1916, and transferred to the accountant of the :Military Hospitals Commission, Ottawa, on the 21st February last with a Dr. balance of $6.38. Xow, I have a statement of his English account and of his Canadian account. By the Chairman : Q. You had better file that statement. ENGLISH ACCOUNT. Credits:— 1-10-14 to 30-1-17. S53 days at $1 $853 00 1-10-14 to 30-1-17, 853 days at 10 cents 85 30 Cr. previous account, 63 cents, K.O. 1598, 10 days S.F., $4.80, R.O. 1603, 8 days S.F. $3.84 9 27 Adjustment of exchange 6 13 >53 70 Debits:— Total cash payments $418 22 Assigned pay to Jan. 31, 1917 480 00 Messing charges $3.26. hosp. stop. March 16, $3. . 6 26 Credit balance on 30-1-17 49 22 $953 70 CANADIAN ACCOUNT. Credits : — Eng. L.P.C. Cr. bal. on 30-1-17 $49 22 31-7-16 to 31-12-16. 154 days at 60 cents sub. allce 92 40 Amount recovered by paymaster, '' A " unit, M.D. No. 4, Dr. balance on transfer 6 38 $148 00 Debits :— P.M. M.D. No. 13, 11-8-16, advance $ 40 00 P.M. M.D. No. 13, 18-9-16, advance 25 00 Cas. Ottawa, 10-1-17, advance 50 00 Overcredited on Eng. L.P.C. for period 1-1-17 to 30-1-17 at $1.10 p.d 33 00 $148 00 There is a note to the effect that ''further payments of pay and allowances are being made to this man by the Military Hospitals Commission." He is still in their pay. I cannot see myself, looking at his account, that he has any ground for com- plaint. [Mr. J. W. Borden] 1100 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. He claims that his pay was not adjusted properly, that it has never been adjusted to his satisfaction? — A. If he would state just exactly in what way it has not betni adjusted the matter could be looked into; but so far as I know it has been properly adjusted. Q. Now, have you anything to say regarding any other cases? — A. There is the case of Pte. Baldock. He was one of the original cases, that is, he was one of the first men who returned to Canada, being paid in full by the paymaster at the discharge depot, Quebec, and given three months pay and allowances. At that time the regulation was that the men should be medically examined at Quebec on arrival there, and the medical authorities would state how long his illness or injury was supposed to last. In this case they said that it was three months. Accordingly, he was given three months pay and allowances. Q. How much? — A. I cannot say what that would be. (To Captain Aumond) what would he be given? Captain Aumond: He was given one lump sum, the same rate that he was drawing otherwise. The Chairman: Was that in advance for the three months? Captain Aumond: It was given in advance. The Witness : Then he was discharged. The arrangement was that on discharge they gave him this three months' pay and allowances. By the Chairman: Q. Eventually, he was put back into hospital, and his claim is that he did not get the separation allowance due him for the time he was put back in hospital? — 'A. Yes, owing to his being an old case, and nothing having come up, the rhatter was overlooked in regard to that Order in Council which was made retroactive. Of course, had he applied to the Department for this, he would have got it. (To Captain Aumond) : Did he ever apply direct? Captain Aumond: There was no application. The Chairman: No application on record. The Witness: The amount due him on this account is about $48.95, and that payment will be made forthwith. By the Chairman: Q. So that his complaint is really a valid complaint, but he had not presented it to the Department? — A. He had not presented it to the Department. Q. So that you are sending him a cheque for $48.95 which will satisfy the account, and you would have sent it sooner if he had brought it to the attention of the Depart- ment? — A. Yes. By Mr. Pardee: Q. In the event of these men delaying to send in a complaint for what pay they have not got, there is no way of checking them up and seeing that they do get it ■until ? — A. There is no reason why it should not be done, and it is done. Q. You say there is no reason why it should not be done and it is done. What is done? — A. Why the case is looked into. Q. I quite understand that, but there is no regular machinery in the Department that has the man looked up in the event of his not sending in a complaint regarding the amount that is coming to him?— A. (To Captain Aumond): You go through all these cases don't you? Captain Aumond : Well we have not had the staff to deal with it. [Mr. J. W. Borden.] RECEPTIOX, TREATMENT AND HE-EDUCATION 1101 By Mr. Pardee: Q. Suppose a soldier came over hero, and he was six months here, and he failed to send in any request whatever for pay, have you any method of finding out that that man is not receiving the money, and sending it to him, except on his personal complaint? — A. Yes, certainly. Q. What is the way? — A. As soon as these men arrive in Quebec, the list for the whole batch is sent up here with last pay certificates, and the whole account is gone over; every man's account is looked into, and forwarded on to the respective districts to which the men belong and pay is issued from there. Q. Pay is issued from there? — A. Yes. (}. If there is dtlay in that you do not know of it, except on the complaint of the man himself ?-— A. Xo, we would not know about the delay. What arrangements have you, "Mt. Aumond, for ascertaining ^vhether all of these accounts are paid — of the accounts which go to Toronto or W^inripeg? Captain AuMONp: The accounts that are transferred now are supposed to be all right. The Witness: Have you any way of knowing whether the paymaster actually pays that account? Captain Aumond: Xo, sir. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Is it not reported to Ottawa that the amount has been paid? — A. No, we do not get any report back. Q. Would it not be better if you did ? — A. Yes. Unless the paymaster at Toronto or Winnipeg or Halifax is very lax, any one of these cases that he had not paid for any reason he would report back to Ottawa. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Is there any system of having him report back to you? — A. Well, there is no regulation issued asking him to do that, but we take it as a matter of common sense he would do it. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. He would not report back the cause of oversight or delay or anything of that kind? — A. He would report in case there was any complaint. Q. But not otherwise? — A. No. By the Chairman: Q. Have you here in Ottawa a separate account as against every returned soldier in the matter of pay and allowances? — A. The ledger account for every soldier. Q. If a man is paid by the paymaster in Toronto, is the report of that payment made from Toronto reported here and entered in your ledger account against that man? — A. No, it is not. Q. So that a man might have two ledger accounts, one at Ottawa and one at Toronto?— A. Yes. Q. And neither case would be able to give a full statement of what he had re- ceived? — A. Well, the ledger account here would show what was due the man, but the paymaster at Toronto would be instructed to pay him. By Mr. Pardee: Q. How would you know here whether the paymaster there had paid him or not? — A. We could only ascertain that by asking him to make a report. Q. Does he make returns at any stated period at all ?— A. Yes, they make monthly statements. Every cheque appears in the monthly statement. b\it they are not checked up with the ledger account. [Mr. J. W. Borden.] 1102 >:PEC1AL committee— C.E.F.—RETUR1ST ED SOLDIERS Q. Supposing you send a cheque to the paymaster in Toronto for John Smith, and Smith does not come around for the cheque for a month or six weeks, do you get any report of that? — A. He does not have to come around. The paymaster immedi- ately makes out the cheque and forwards it to the man. If he has not his address he endeavours to ascertain it. Q. And if he does not secure his address? — A. If he does not secure the address, then he would report to Ottawa, or report to Captain Aumond. If they cannot find the address they generally apply to Ottawa for the information. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Do you not think it would be a good thing to have the publication of a monthly bulletin showing the unpaid balances, like the banks do — the unpaid cheques? — A. Yes. Q. And you could find out if there was really any balance owing to the man? — A. Yes, it might be a good thing, but I do not think you would find very many cases. Q. The cheque is issued and sent to Toronto and is not claimed. It might re- main there forever and nobody would get it? — A. No, the paymaster cannot issue a cheque and hold it forever. He has to account for it. That cheque, in the settle- ment up of the bank's business, must be accounted for: if in no other way, it must be placed to the credit of the Keceiver General. Q. Suppose a man disappears for some reason or other, his relatives might claim the amount, if they could find out in any publication of the Government that there was a balance unpaid? — A. They might. Q. It is done in the case of banks unpaid balances? — A. They might claim it, but it would not be turned over to them unless it was shown the man was dead and that the claimant was his legal representative. By the Chairman: Q. Naturally as the war has proceeded there have been new regulations in respect of pay and allowances, usually more beneficial to the soldier. Do you deal with the whole of these accounts with a view to making them retroactive? — A. Yes, we do, as fast as we can, but of course you can understand that we are a little ham- pered in the first place on account of press of work, in the second place we have not quarters sufficient to acconmiodate a full and efficient staff. I would invite the com- mittee or some member to drop in Captain Aumond's office and see the situation. Q. Then we understand that you are through lack of accommodation handi- capped in your work here at Ottawa. — A. Yes. Q. And that the effects of that handicap are felt through the work in the prompt- ness and correctness of the results? — A. Yes, it is actually impossible for us to in- crease the staff until we get larger quarters., Q. Is your staff well organized? — A. It is. Q. And a sufficiently well managed staff? — A. It is, particularly in this casual pay matter, we have a very fair, very good and efficient staff' in my estimation, but that staff, in view of the heavy work which is before us must be increased very soon. Q. Is it obligatory, according to your militia regulations, that in any attempt to strengthen your staff you must take' certain men because they are members of the militia, or soldiers, and you are not free to take any civilian whose experience in matters of pay would render them valuable? Are you hampered by the fact that you must use the permanent staff that was, prior to the war, attached to the military department? — A. No, I cannot say that we are hampered in that respect. We are asked to give returned soldiers the preference when making appointments. We have asked for returned soldiers, but, so far as I know, only half a dozen at the most have turned up, perhaps not that number. [Mr. J. W. Borden.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1103 Q. You mean returned soldiers who have capabilities to do paymaster's work? — A. Yes, we have asked for tlieni, but they have not responded to the call. I presume those who are efficient are retained in the London office. Q. What I want to know more particularly is this: Suppose for the sake of argument, the Casualty Department was a weak one in its superintendence. Are you free to take a civilian with executive ability and business experience and put him in charge, or are you compelled to take someone who is a military officer'^ — A. No, I cannot say we are compelled to do that. All I have to do is to represent to the Minis- ter of Militia that it is Very desirable in the public interest to appoint such and such a man to a certain position. Q. Are you absolutely free then to go outside and to select any civilian whom you think has the ability to put a sub-department under you in a thorough, business-like shape if you so desire? — A. No, I cannot say that. Q. Can you, with the approval of the minister? — A. Yes, with the approval of the minister. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Does the minister consult you when he makes an appointment? — A. No. With regard to these local appointments the practice is for the local members to send forward lists of names of applicants, and from that list we select our clerks, the best that we can get. Hitherto I have been handicapped in respect of, for instance, the Separation Allowance and Assigned Pay Branch, in regard to getting good men. By the Chairmcun: Q. You have been handicapped? — A. Yes, I have been handicapped. Q. Why? — A. Because all these appointments must go through the channel I have indicated. Q. Which channel? — A. Upon the recommendations of the local political chiefs. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Are you not at liberty to do what the Chairman asked you, Mr. Borden? — A. Yes, if it is the head of any big position, but appointments to the ordinary rank and file are made in the way I have indicated. By the Chairman: Q. Suppose, for the sake of argument, Mr. Borden, you were placed in charge of the accounting department of a big life insurance institution and called upon to organize it upon thorough business lines. You would feel free, would you not, to look over all Canada? — A. Yes. Q. For a suitable man to bring that department up to a state of absolute efficiency. Now, have you the same feeling in connection with the Paymaster's Branch of the Militia Department? — A. I have not. Q. Now, this has been suggested A. Excuse me, I will not say I have not now, but I have not in the past. Q. You have not had in the past? — A. No. Q. How long since you had that? — A. There have been no specific instructions given. Q. Only a different atmosphere? — A. Only a different atmosphere. Q. Since how long has that existed? — A. Since the past few months. Q. I have heard this criticism, and I want you to say whether in your judgment it is a valid one, that the military limitations of the department demanded that the best positions should be given to men who were all of the permanent military force, and that consequently you were not free to take men of outstanding ability to help you in reorganizing your pay branch, if that was necessary, from civilian life. Is [Mr. J. W. Borden.] 1104 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS that true? Do you feel that the fact that you have to take a captain or major, or a colonel of military standing in the permanent force, is a handicap to you in reorgan- izing your branch on a thoroughly efficient basis ? — A. I do not think so. I have not been handicapped in that way. What we have been anxious to get among the military men are those who have had experience. Q. Among military men? — A. Yes, among military men. Q. Are you confined in your choice to military men? — A. I would prefer a mili- tary man to a civilian. Q. If he has the other qualifications? — A. If he has the qualifications. I am speaking now in regard to pay work, not accounting work, because a military man who has had the experience and has a good knowledge of accounting, is far better qualified in my opinion for such work than a civilian who may be an expert accountant. Q. Are there many good accountants available in the military? — A. The account- ing in the Paymaster's Branch is not of a very difficult character. Q. Will you tell us how these officials were selected in the early part of the work for the various units? — A. They were really selected locally. ■ Q. Was there any attempt made to determine their ability as accountants or book-keepers? — A. No. Q. Do you not attribute a good deal of the trouble you have encountered to the choice originally of unqualified paymasters ?— -A. Oh, yes, a great deal. By Hon. Mr. Murphy : Q. Can you say in a general way how the paymasters were selected? — A. They were selected by the officer commanding the battalion and forwarded on the recom- mendation of the officer commanding the district. The latter was supposed to look into their qualifications, and then if he thought they were suitable, to make the recom- mendations and to forward them to headquarters. By the Chairman: Q. Was there any attempt made to give the paymasters a qualifying course? — A. That was absolutely impossible in the first stages of the war. Q. Is it being done now? — A. It has been done for the past 18 months, and we have found it workiiig very well. We have given paymasters as a rule fcrom three to six months' instruction and experience in the district paymaster's office. Q. And if a local man who is selected as paymaster does not turn out satisfac- torily during the appointing period, can you get rid of him? — A. Yes, we could get rid of them, and we liave got rid of them in some cases where they proved to be very bad. Q. And you consider since you undertook to train the paymaster for this work, there has been a decided improvement. — A. Oh, there has been a decided improvement. By Mr. Bennett: Q. I have had an opportunity of studying the conditions and I have arrived at cer- tain conclusions and I would like to know from, you whether they are correct or not. At first, when you started in the war, you had a very limited number of accounts to handle, that is at the first. — A. Correct. Q. Now you have something over 400,000 accounts on your books? — A. Correct. Q. And that expansion has taken place between August, 1914, and May, 1917. — A. That is true. Q. And until hostilities broke out you had a staff of less than one hundred in your pay department, is that true ? — A. I think it was a good deal less than one hundred. Q. I have made some inquiries and as far as I can find out it was not more than 50 in August, 1914. — A. That would be nearer correct. [Mr. J. W. Borden.] I RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1105 Q. At the present time youi- staff in Canada amounts to about how many? — ^A. I could not tell you offhand. Q. And there are now over a thousand, as far as my count goes, is that right? — A. Of all classes. Q. I am now considering the expansion of the staff in the various districts and at the head office? — A. Oh, yes, it would be over a thousand, including the assigned pay and civilian clerks. Q. And that has involved the necessity of taking into the service men and women in very large numbers, in hiany cases without training, because the army is absorbing the young men who ordinarily did that work? — A. Possibly more than 90 per cent of the present staff had absolutely no training. Q. Another reason why trained men are not available is that the banks are keep- ing what they can and the army is taking the rest? — A. Yes. Q. And you have a very considerable number of women here with limited accom- modation for them? — A. As anybody will easily see who visits the office. Q. Now, if my investigations are correct the chief difficulty that you have experi- enced has arisen because when our men went overseas it was necessary to open an account for them in the ledger in the London office, and therefore you had to close their account out here and transfer it to the London office where they have a large staff of men? — A. We have to close up their general pay account here, but, as regards their assigned pay, we have kept that account open, and also there is the separation allow- ance account. Q. Now in practice, you have to maintain really three accounts; there is the man's general pay account, there is his assigned paj' account, and his separation allowance account, that is so, is it not? — A. That is correct. Q. And when he goes overseas you have to transfer his general pay account to the London office? — A. Correct. Q. And there are left here his assigned pay and separation allowance accounts? — A. Correct. Q. But if, subsequeiitly, his wife takes a notion to go overseas, then the complica- tion arises of transferring the assigned pay and separation allowance accounts over there? — A. That is correct. Q. Then you have 400,000 accounts that will have to be dealt with in this way? — A. Approximately. Q. And when the soldier becomes a casualty, if he is sent back to Canada the first thing they do in England is to close his pay account and send that back here? — A. Correct. By the Chairman: Q. To whom? — A. The casualty paymaster. By Mr. Bennett: Q. It comes to you and you distribute it to that branch of your department known as the casualty paymaster? — A. Yes. Q. And the unfortunate situation arises that if his wife is, by any possibility, remaining abroad, the assigned pay and separation allowance accounts have to be kept there until such time as she comes back here ? — A. Correct. Q. And we have the situation that you have to satisfy yourself as to the correct- ness of the overseas account, in order that you may have a correct account here? — A. As a matter of fact we take the overseas account as correct. Q. You take it, in the first instance, as correct, and you re-open that ledger account in Ottawa for the man who left here perhaps a year or a year and three months before, that is the practice? — A. That is the practice. Q. My investigation would seem to indicate that sometimes that overseas account has turned out not to be correct, as you got it in the first instance, because of some further information you received, is that not true? — A. It might possibly occur. ^Mr. J. "W. Borden.] 28277—70 1106 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— returns' ED SOLDIERS Q. It has occurred once or twice, has it not, because something has not been charged against the man, which should have been charged?— A. Yes, they have not, sometimes, debited the full amount of the assigned pay that we have issued here. Q. And when that happens it is sent back to you here from the London office and you have to adjust that account? — A. Yes. Q. And in the adjustment it has sometimes unfortunately transpired that a man has been overpaid, and he gets no more pay until the balance overpaid has been absorbed, is not that correct? — ^A. That is correct. By the Chairman: Q. Is he notified in a case like that l — A. He is always notified when there is noth- ing due to him. Q. Is he notified that it is on account of overpayment he is not getting any more pay? — A. Immediately the account is made up he is notified of the state of his account, we do not wait for him to apply for his statement. By Mr. Bennett: Q. The general instructions given here are, and that is where the trouble has arisen, to shut off further pay to that man until the balance overpaid has been absorbed? — 'A. That is it. Q. And I regret to say that, in some cases, that applies equally to the assigned pay and separation allowances where there have been overpayments? — A. Yes. Q. And then, of course, the unfortunate wife and the soldier rush off to the nearest member of Parliament, or whoever will write his letters, and from that time on it is a long series of correspondence until they finally realize that what has hap- pened is that an overpayment has been made and that an adjustment of the pay, or the pension, is necessary. Is that the story? — A. That is the story; that is absolutely correct. Q. Those cases are not too numerous, are they? — A. They are not so very numerous. Q. But, unfortunately, they attract attention out of proportion to their number? — A. That is the real statement of the case. By the Chairman: Q. May I interject a question? When a man's account is in such condition as described, and because of the fact that there is a debit against him, you cut off his pay on this side and the allowance to his family, do you take the trouble to notify him with an explanatory letter that he may know why, in a certain month, he got nothing? — A. (To Captain Aumond) You always send him a statement of his account ? Captain Aumond : When they apply for a statement we give it to them. The Chairman: When they apply. When they do not apply, when February comes, for instance, he is expecting his February cheque and he gets nothing? Captain Aumond: When we are adjusting his account we issue a last pay certi- ficate to the district where he is sent. The Witness: And the district forwards the statement to him. By Mr. Bennett: Q. In many cases, Mr. Borden, you have letters written explaining what has happened? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Is any explanation' given the wife and family at home as to why there is nothing coming? [Mr. J. W. Borden.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1107 By Mr. Bennett: Q. I was leading up to that. Tu the early stages that was not done, but now jou send a letter? — A. Yes. Q. And that is the cause of misapprehension and trouble? — A. That is correct. Q. What I have just said applies equally to officers and privates? — A. It applies to all. Q. In fact, the officers, perhaps, have made the most trouble, and the trouble is due to having two offices and two sets of ledger accounts? — A. I cannot say that we have had so many complaints from officers. Q. Perhaps my experience is different from yours, but I have had a good many complaints from officers' wives. — A. They are generally from the rank and file, generally from the man who is, perhaps, more or less ignorant. Hon. Mr. jMarcil: Are you going to follow up your questioli with any suggestion, Mr. Bennett? Mr. Bennett: I am going to try to. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Going a step further, with improved conditions, that is better knowledge of conditions, you have been making some improvements, Mr. Borden, all along the line? — A. We have been trying to improve right straight along as fast as we can. Q. It is not unfair to say that the burden cast upon the pay office in Canada is a larger one than has ever been imposed upon any institution in Canada during its existence? — A. I think that is quite correct. Q. Four hundred thousand ledger accounts is an enormous burden. It is only fair to say that you have probably been working a little too hard at that sort of thing during the past two yeqrs? — A. During two years and one-half. Q. You think that the divisions in your pay office are such as commend them- selves to sound accounting practice? — A. I do. Q. And you think they are now so established that it is a matter only of carrying into effect the arrangements you have made to secure absolute efficiency? The prin- ciples you have adopted are sound, you are satisfied of that? — A. I am satisfied. As I have already stated, all we need now are more commodious quarters. By the Chairman: Q. Can you tell us how many sub-departments you have? By Mr. Bennett: Q. You have established, first of all, your great casualty department, and the assigned pay department? — A. Correct. Q. And the separation allowance department, and the general ledger account department? — A. Yes. Q. And you have selected yourself, I understand, men whom you believe, by reason of their training and experience, to be best fitted to have control of these departments? — A. That is what I have been most anxious to obtain. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Have you obtained them? — A. I have now, I think. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You have been making changes from time to time, you have not hesitated to put one man out and bring another man in; and, in fact, it has been necessary for you to make many changes in order to arrive at an efficient administration. — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. Can you give us the name of the sub-head in charge of each department? Who is the casualty paymaster? — A. Captain Aumond, who is here with me. [Mr. J. W. Borden.] 28277— 70J •1108 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Who is head of the assi^ied pay? — A. Major Ingall is acting at present. Colonel Mack was appointed. Q. Who is head of the separation allowance? — A. Major Ingall. Q. They go together?— A. Yes. Q. Who has charge of the general ledger account? — A. The general ledger account is now overseas. By Mr. Bennett: Q. That is in charge of the paymaster at London? — A. Yes. Q. And in order that you might have the services of what you regarded as the best men possible, General Carson took over from Montreal two chartered accountants, Mr. Ross and Mr. Dowie, both gentlemen of large practical accounting experience in Montreal. You yourself have not had anything to do with practical administration overseas? — A. I have not. Q. That is entirely in their hands? — A. As regards all the details. I laid down the general principles on which the work would be carried on. Q. And it was co-ordinated with your work here, that was the purpose. And the divisions over there, roughly speaking, you asked to be the same as the divisions you are maintaining here? — A. Of the work, you mean? Q. Yes. — A. No, I cannot say that. We left it to them Q. I do not mean all of them. I mean separation allowance and assigned pay? — A. Yes. Q. In practice, you think conditions have improved greatly during the last six months? — A. Both here and overseas. Q. In bringing about that improvement, these investigations have taken place, and they may have been the cause of the feeling that has been abroad? — A. Possibly. Q. Having regard to the conditions established in the light of your experience, I understand you to say, first, you want more apace? — A. More space. Q. In fact your staff is so congested that the men are tumbling over each other, and there is not room enough to work properly? — A. That is a fact. The Chaikman: And the staff is widely dispersed. By Ml'. Bennett: Q. That is the next point. Consequently your staff is so distributed throughout the city that anything like close supervision is practically impossible? — A. An efficient supervision by myself is practically impossible. Q. That is what I mean. You have to rely then upon the supervision of each sub-head in the place where his staff happens to be located? — A. That is the case, sir. Q. And there is no chance given you, under one roof, to call together your various heads for purposes of consultation and discussion, but you have to bring them from various places? — A. Yes. Q. And your offices have very limited space in which to do that. Now, what do you suggest, in addition to additional space, as further means of improvement, assum- ing that you were not in the employ of the Government at all, that you were con- ducting this matter as a purely business enterprise? — A. As I say, in the first place, I would suggest more space, more commodious quai'ters at once; the need in that respect is very urgent, we must have it, particularly in regard to the casualty pay office and in regard to the separation allowance and assigned pay offices. Those two offices are very much overcrowded and congested. I am of opinion that the staff that we have in those two offices are quite competent to do the work. We have been weed- ing out in the separation allowance, and assigned pay branch particularly, all of the inefficients as fast as we possibly could and replacing them with more efficient clerks. Q. lias political pressure prevented you from doing that freely? — A. No, and moreover there is a closer co-operation now with the London office, we have arranged [Mr. J. W. Borden.] RECEPTIOX, TREATMEXT AXD RE-EDUCATIOX 1109 that. I do not think there is any need, or rather, I would say I cannot make any suggestions for the present other than that larger quarters be provided, K we get larger quarters I am quite certain the work will go on quite satisfactorily. As regards the separation allowance and assigned pay branches, the troops are practically all overseas, recruiting has ceased, and that work is not increasing at a very rapid rate, as you can easily understand. Q. As a matter of fact, you have recently established a separation allowance board to deal with conditions that have arisen in connection with disputed claims and for the granting of such allowances? — A. Yes. Q. That iX)licy has relieved you? — A. Yes. They have to deal with the individual Q. Heretofore there has been put upon you as paymaster general the resiwnsi- bility of deciding in a judicial capacity with respect to the thousand and one cases that have arisen out of the interpretation of the different Orders in Council that have been passed? — A. Yes, that is the case. Q. And the burden became intolerable? — A. That is quite correct, I could not possibly attend to it. Q. It simply reached the stage where nobody could. Now a board has been appointed to deal with such cases. You are able to have the determination of that board, and upon it you act? — A. Upon it I act. By the Chairman: Q. Of whom does this board consist? — A. First of all of Major Margison, who is Chairman. Q. What was his previous position? — A. He was paymaster, who has had exper- ience overseas and also has had considerable experience in Canada in the auditing of accounts. Q. Was he one of your inspectors? — A. He was, and he was a very competent official. The other members are Captain Batey, who is a lawyer and a returned officer from overseas, and Mr. Morris, the assistant secretary of the Patriotic Fund. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Mr. Morris is the only civilian you have on the Board. You took him on in the light of the experience he has had in connection with the distribution of the Patriotic Fund? — A. Yes, he is a very desirable member. Q. And he was the connecting medium between' the Patriotic Fund and the Separation Allowance? — A. Yes. Q. I suppose you have not had the number of complaints that you formerly had? It is only fair to say that about the middle of 1915 the complaints became very numer- ous? — A. Very numerous. Q. In fact, I am advised they amounted to hundreds per day. That is a fair way of putting it, is it not? — A. Yes, that is quite correct. Q. And now even in your cramped quarters conditions have so improved that tlie complaints amount to less than 20 per cent? — A. There are very few complaints. However, Major Ingall can give you more recent information as to that than I can. By the Chairman: Q. Have you a daily complaint record? — A. Major IngaU tells me there is. I would like to say that in 1915 the recruiting was very brisk. By Mr. Bennett: Q. And the men were being moved overseas? — A. And the men were being moved overseas. Then there was trouble. The men were transferred from the separation allowance to a subsistence allowance, and then suddenly transferred back, with the result that there was considerable confusion and considerable delay. To this work [Mr. J. W. Borden.] 1110 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS there were some forty or fifty thousand new accounts added which were opened in the late winter or the early sprin^r, I think perhaps it was in the months of April and May. By the Chairman: Q. There is one more question I would like to ask. A good many of the returned soldier witnesses who have appeared before us have regarded it as a grievance that tht^y were not allowed to keep their pay books. Is there any reason why any returned soldier should not have his pay book? — A. No. He should have his pay book, and I think in the majority of cases the returned soldiers do get them. Q. There were a great many cases instanced to us where the men did not have their pay books, in fact, one man at Kingston stated that more than half of the men who came back did not have their pay books? — A. He was probably speaking without any knowledge of the facts. Q. What was the reason so many pay books were kept? — A. The London office calls in the pay books for the purpose of checking them up and comparing them with the men's pay accounts. It is always intended to return the pay books to the men, but it sometimes happens that a man gets away without his book. Q. Not having his pay book is a considerable nusiance to a man? — A. Yes, it is. Q. Do you think there are at the present time any number of pay books in the London office that should be forwarded to the men or officers owning them? — A. I do not think there are very many, there may be a few. Q. Are steps being taken to urge that these pay books be sent back here, so that they may be distributed to the owners? — A. As far as I know there have been no steps taken in that direction up to the present time. Q. Would it not be desirable to do something of the kind in order to settle com- plaints ? — A. I did not know that that state of things did exist until I read the evidence. I have received no personal complaint myself, that is, no soldier has come with a com- plaint to me touching the matter. By Mr. Bennett: Q. A very considerable number of soldiers complain of the difficulties in con- nection with pay, stoppage of separation allowance, inability to get assigned pay, and matters of that kind. You say that most of these matters have now been dealt with, and that if there had been difficulties with respect to returned men, they would be attributable to two causes : first, to delays in getting information from London, and second, possibly delay or difficulty in getting into prompt communication with the men. Would that be about it? — A.^That would be about it, except that I do not know whether there has been much difficulty on the part of district paymasters getting into prompt communication with men. Sometimes it happens that the paymaster does not know where the man is and has difficulty in finding him. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Have you any official in your department specially assigned to take up such complaints as come in from day to day from individual soldiers and to write to those soldiers as soon as possible, giving them an explanation as to the complaints they make? — A. Yes, it goes to the Casualty, if it is a matter of pay, and if it is a matter of separation allowance, it would go to the Separation Allowance Branch. By the Chairman: Q. They say that frequently they write letters and that they get no answer for a long time. Is it the rule of the department to answer letters of complaint sent by the soldiers? — A. Yes, as soon as possible when the matter has been looked up. Q. But is there any acknowledgment sent immediately the letter is received? — A. No, we do not undertake to do that, but we endeavour to get all the information [Mr. J. W. Borden.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1111 as soon as possible, and then a reply is sent to the soldier. We do not follow the practice of acknowledging the receipt of the letter one day and the next day sending an answer. Q. Would it not be desirable where complaints come in to immediately acknow- ledge the receipt? — A. Not unless it is a matter which cannot be decided upon, a matter upon which full information cannot be got within a reasonable time. Q. Surely it would not take long if you had a printed form of acknowledgment, only retiuiring the filling in of the date, to have one of the clerks send that acknow- ledgment of each complaint as soon as it is received? — A. What would be the object if you can give a full reply within a week. Q. It does sometimes go for months at a time, does it not, before the full reply is obtained? — A. Sometimes there is a delay in getting the full information and notice does not go out promptly always. Bi/ Mr. Pardee: Q. I wish you would give me an explanation of this case, so that we may just put it right. This is the case of a Sergeant Harrison, in which there seems to have been some correspondence with you (handing newspaper to witness) and finally you wrote to him. Now it appears he was put in the hospital, he was discharged, taken back and finally discharged, and his wife left with nothing? — A. I could not tell you about that case offhand, I would have to look into it before I could give you any reply. Mr. Pardee: Very well, then, if you will kindly prepare a statement with regard to that case, and you can give the full particulars, and it will be put on the record. The Chairman: Give the complaint, and your written explanation regarding it, and the secretary will insert it in the record. Mr. Pardee: Now there is another case — I think the only way we can get at this is by giving concrete cases. The Chairman: I will pass over to you this list of concrete cases, and you will please have a statement prepared in regard to them. Witness: Some of these have been already considered, and I have placed the explanation upon the record. By Mr. Pardee: Q. There is a letter, Mr. Borden, from Captain Gordon with reference to the case of Private Lee, as you see there, that is a case of which I have personal knowledge. Will you just make a note of that case, and will you give me a report on that, Mr. Borden? — A. I will, sir. He went back to hospital. Q. Yes, he went back to hospital in London, Ontario, and I have a letter at home showing that man had been put back on the pay and allowance lists, that letter is dated the ITth March, and his wife says she has not got any money yet? — A. Of course, he will be paid by the Hospitals Commission if he is in hospital. Q. And he will not be paid by you at all? — A. No, by the Hospitals Commission. Captain Gordon is in the Pay and Separation Allowance Branch, but if the man is in the hospital, it would be a matter of pay and allowance here in Canada, and he should be paid by the Hospitals Commission's paymaster in Toronto. Q. You would have charge of it, it is in your branch? — A. I will look into that and see what the trouble is. Q. Do you think that you have too many people who have charge of the pay? Do you think it might be simply that there are too many people handling it? — A. The Military Hospitals Commission, of course, have their separate organization. Q. What class of patients do they pay? — A. They pay all that go into the hospital. Q. And what class of patients do you pay? — A. We pay the men up till the date of their arrival here in Canada. Then we turn them over to the Hospitals Commission, and they pay them. fMr. J. W. Borden. q 1112 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Then as soon as a man arrives in Canada, and you pay him off, your responsi- bility ceases? — A. Practically, and the Hospitals Commission are really responsible. Q. You say the Hospitals Commission are "really" responsible, are they actually responsible, or have you something to do with it? — A. They are responsible. Q. Do you have anything to do with it at all ? — A. We have really no authority (to Major Ingall) — I~think I am correct in that statement. Major Ingall: The Secretary of the Military Hospitals Commission came over to our Headquarters, and asked that our inspectors should be permitted to inspect their pay-accounts, that is the pay they advance to the men, but not other accounts in connection with the Hospitals Commission. By Mr. Pardee : Q. The Hospitals Commission Command Paymaster is responsible that the man gets his pay and allowances? — A. He is responsible. Q. And the man is passed over wholly to the Hospitals Commission paymaster? — A. Yes. Q. Where does the Hospitals Commission paymaster get his money — from you? — A. He gets it from the Militia Department. Q. Through you ?— A. Through the District Officer. By the Chairman: Q. Who is the Militia Hospitals Commission paymaster? — A. There is one in each district. You had one of the Military Hospitals paymasters before this Committee, I think, in Toronto, Lieutenant Chadwick, Q. Who is the superintendent of the Military Hospitals Commission paymasters; who is the head of that branch? — A. The Secretary, Mr. Scammel. Bfy Mr. Pardee: Q. Then am I right in this that when a man comes home and there is pay due to him, you take care of him? — A. We take care of him. Q. And you take care of his assigned pay? — A. And separation allowance — up to the date he arrives here. Q. He arrives here, and he is put in the hospital; have you anything further to do with that man — I am talking now about your branch? — A. Well, he is turned over to the Hospitals Commission, and there is in a way, a sort of dual control, I suppose. The lines are not very plainly marked between the Hospitals Commission and the Militia Department. Q. You are the Militia Department? — A. Ours is the Militia Department. Q. Now supposing I want to write about a man like Private Lee, and I wrote to you, do you have charge of it, or do you refer me to the Military Hospitals Commission, because this man is in the hospital? — A. No, we refer you to the Military Hospitals Commission. I would write to the Military paymaster in Toronto, and ask him to look into the case, through the Military Hospitals Commission. Q. So that the process would be this: I write you, who ought to be written to as head of the Pay Department, you would write to a man in Toronto who belongs to your department, and he would write to a man somewhere else who belongs to the Military Hospitals Commission, and the Military Hospitals Commission would report back to you through the same source? — A, That is about it. Q. So that it takes about six letters, where one ought to do and it goes through this endless chain in order to get at the facts in one simple ease? — A. Yes, that is correct, but I do not know that it would take six letters. We would write to the District Paymaster, but he would not necessarily write to the Military Hospitals Paymaster. TMr. J. W. Borden.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1113 Q. Then what does he do? — A. He might interview the paymaster by personal interview. Q. And when he had that interview, then what would he do? — A. Write to me. Q. And you would then A. Write to you. Q. So that there is, as a matter of fact, a dual control over these funds?— A. There is. Q. And these funds cannot be paid out without your consent, and without the consent of the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. That is correct. Bij the Chairman: Q. This case of Lee's is at Sarnia. Do I understand that you would write to Toronto in connection with that or write to London ? — A. He was in London. In that case we would write to London. Q. You would write to the paymaster of the military district to which he comes? — A. Yes, that is the channel through which I would seek information. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You have never hesitated, when cases have arisen in connection with the adjustment of diiferences between the overseas pay oflfice and your office, to use the ca,bles? — A. Never hesitated. We sometimes cable on the most trivial matter. We feel compelled to — Q. And you use the telegraph as well ? — A. Yes. Q. Against the people making complaints? — A. In a case of promotion we often have to cable asking if Private So-and-So has been made a sergeant, and from what time, as it aifects separation allowance, also assigned pay. Bi/ the Chairman: Q. When Major Todd was here, we asked him about how many complaints he had, and he stated that he would submit a memorandum, which he has done, of some forty complaints that have been received in his department. Then he gave an analysis of these showing how they were disposed of. Would you be inclined to give us twenty-five or thirty sample complaints that may have been received in your department within the last three or four days? — A. Regarding pay? Q. Yes. Take the con-espondence of complaints that have come in this week, and give us a memo, showing what were those complaints and what the departmental state- ment is concerning each? — A. Yes, I shall be glad to do that. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. There has been a class of cases brought to my attention, and in so far as the question of pay is included they can be referred to now. I do not know whether you can give us any information, but I refer to the case of men who while in England, say, occupied the rank of sergeant and received sergeant's pay, and who claim that before going overseas thej' were given to understand that they would be allowed to retain their rank and the pay of that rank; but after arriving in France were reduced to the rank of private and had their pay reduced accordingly. Can you tell the Committee any- thing about that? — A. They would not be reduced unless it was a case of a surplus N.C.O.'s sent over from Canada to England, and who volunteered to serve as a private. In that case he would draw the pay of a private, but his wife would draw the separation allowance of a sergeant. Separation allowance was not to be reduced in such cases. If the man who went over as an officer, warrant officer or N.C.O. volunteered to serve as a private at the front, he was to get a private's pay, but the wife was to get separation allowance as an officer's wife or a warrant officer's or N.C.O.'s "wife, as the case may be; and in case of death I think it was understood that she was to be pensioned at the rates allowed for officers, warrant officers or N.C.O.'s, as the case may be. [Mr. J. W. Borden.1 1114 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. I have had a memo, made in regard to two cases. (Memo. read). Based on the memorandum I have just read about the case of John Chorley, can you explain to the Committee why the reduction of pay was made?— A. I could not. We would have to seek information overseas. Q. And your answer would apply to any other case of the same character ?— A. We would have to seek the information overseas. By Mr. Bennett: Q. That is one point I have not mentioned. When the men get overseas, N.C.O's very frequently find themselves reduced because of small offences by the operation of the military law or Military Board. Then the pay office keeps on paying both assigned pay and separation allowance on the basis of a sergeant until they get advices of a man having been reduced. The result is a further complication that necessitates an adjustment. I intended to mention that class. Hon. Mr. Murphy: That does not apply to the case I cited. The Witness: We do not pay any attention to these reduction cases unless they are for some considerable time. If it is a temporary reduction, the allowances are not affected. By Mr. Bennett: Q. If it is a permanent reduction, you have to reduce the allowances? — A. Then we have to adjust the pay accordingly. By Eon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Where can information be obtained about cases such as I have drawn your attention to ? — A. We would receive a report. If you will forward the' memoranda to me I will send overseas and ask for a report. Hon. Mr. Murphy: I will give you these memoranda (hands to witness). By the Chairman: Q. You will be good enough, if the task is not too great, to take the complaints that have come in this week regarding pay and allowances, prepare a list of them, and the result of your departmental investigation regarding each, and let this Com- mittee look them over? — A. I shall be very happy to do that. Witness discharged. Surgeon-General Carletox Jones re-called and re-examined. . By the Chairman: Q. When you were before us last, General Jones, we asked you more particularly regarding matters of medical care and attention with regard to the men overseas. The Committee are of opinion that they require certain further information regarding the matter of pay and allowances. I wish you would tell us very briefly just what is the procedure overseas in the matter of pay and allowances in the case of men who are wounded? — A. When the man comes back to England, he has his pay book with him, and that pay book is sent from the hospital to the Pay Branch in London. He receives no pay while he is in hospital. ■ Q. Is the Pay Branch in London a sub-department of the Pay Branch or the regular pay and records office? — A. The pay offices. By Mr. Bennett: Q. The Millbank offices?— A. Yes. [Surgeon-General G. C. Jones.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1115 By the Chairman: Q. To any special department thereof? — A. Yes, it is distributed in tlie depart- ments I presume. He receives no pay while he is in hospital, except he is allowed, I understand — I am not quite certain on this point — I think it is now six shillings a week while in hospital. Q. For spending money? — A. For spending money. When he comes to be sent to Canada his pay book comes with his discharge documents. Q. Do you send to London for it? — A. There is a new procedure laid down. I was trying to get the department's copy. It was a memo, given out by the overseas authorities, dealing with the routine discharge of men in England. I think it is an important document; it might be submitted to the Committee. Q. You will fyle it as an appendix to to-day's evidence?— A. It there lays down the duties of the Pay Branch as regards men in hospital in England, and who are dis- charged in England. Q. Is the endeavour usually made, when a -wounded soldier is sent back here, to have all papers relating to his medical condition and his pay and allowances go back on the same ship with him? — A. He is supposed not to go until his last certificate has been received either at the special depot at Buxton, or at the hospital which he is at. Q. Upon whom does the duty devolve to make sure that the soldier and his papers return on the same ship? — A. The ofiicer carrying, out the discharge in England, that is the officer commanding the discharge depot at Bvixton, or what is called the hospital representative of the Adjutant-General in each hospital or group of hospitals in England. Q. If you were to-day sending a telegram regarding a man who had come out here without these pay documents, who would you send it to? — A. I would send it to the Adjutant General at London. Q. For him to pass on to the proper party? — A. The officer in command of the ■ Buxton discharge depot is under him, and also the hospital representative, that is the designation of the officer representing the Adjutant General in each hospital or group of hospitals in England. Q. Are the men who are to be sent back to Canada mobilized from the several hospitals .and sent back in a completed group? — A. The procedure is this: Those who have reached finality as regards medical treatment are grouped at Buxton. Q. They may be in twenty hospitals. Are they brought together? — A. Those who have reached their finality go to Buxton. They are discharged for medical reasons. Tlie others are brought from the different hospitals in England and are sent there to the hospital ship. But we are now establishing in England a clearing hospital of a thousand beds or more to which Q. At the point of embarkation? — A. I do not think so. I am not quite certain where it is. When I left it was to be at Manchester. I do not look upon the port of embarkation as being a good place for it. All the patients from the Canadian primary hospitals, the English hospitals, the Canadian convalescent hospitals and special hospitals and others, will be sent to this clearing hospital. I look upon that as being a most important thing to establish, because there every matter connected with them will be adjusted before they come to Canada. Q. Then all their documents regarding pay and allowances and everything of that kind will all head up at that clearing hospital? — A. Yes. Q. And hereafter there will be no question of three hundred dossiers coming back with the same number of men ? — A. They should be always, eliminating the human element. By Hon. Mr. Murpliy: Q. Is there such a hospital now?— A. It is just being formed. [Surgeon-General G. C. Jones.] 1116 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETVR-N ED SOLDIERS By the Chairman: Q. Do you consider that that will do awaj'- with a number of difficulties that have existed heretofore? A. My own view is that the men should be started and transferred from the hospital in England to the hospital in Canada, in very much the same way as they are transferred from the hospitals in France to the hospitals in England. Q. Your plan would be practically the same as carrying out the discharge depot on the other side. What is now done at Quebec and Halifax will be done in England ? — A. On discharge they will be simply transferred from one hospital in England to one hospital in Canada, thereby keeping up the continuity of medical treatment and medical management. Q. And you would do away with the discharge depot here? — A. For that clas? of men. By Mr. Bennett: Q. And the only question which could arise would arise when he would be trans- ferred to the Alberta hospitals, or some other hospital? — A. Quite so. Q. We are speaking of that classification? — A. Yes. Q. And your statement is that the staff you have provided at Manchester has to see that he has everything in England before he departs, and that is done as far as that is concerned? — A. Quite so. Q. And it is merely a transfer from one board to another? — A. If it is a hospital ship he need not go to Quebec, the hospital ships will always land at Halifax, I under- stand, and he will be sent direct from Halifax to the hospital for which he is destined. By the Chairman: Q. Is that scheme of which ypu speak, put into effect? — A. Yes. Q. When do you expect it will be in full operation? — A. I could not say exactly, I do not know how far the clearing hospital is advanced, or at what stage it is now, but it is all in process and as far as the main question is concerned, it is already acting. Q. And you think that the new arrangement, as far as documentation is con- cerned, will meet the difficulty to some extent that we have experienced here? — A. The question of medical documentation will certainly. As to the question of pay to the men, I am not an authority on that. By Mr. Bennett: Q. There in no reason why it should not? — A. No. Witness discharged. Mr. John Eraser, Auditor-General, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. I understand, Mr. Eraser, that you went over to England some time ago, and spent several months there, particularly investigating the matters of expenditure. Have you anything to offer this committee in connection with the subject we have been taking up regarding soldiers' pay and allowances. What did you find to be the system in operation over there? — A. In what respect, Mr. Chairman? I have heard Mr. Borden's evidence as to how the accounts were kept. There was a different system over there. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You investigated matters yourself, did you not? — A. Yes. [Mr. John Fraser.] RECEPTIOX, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1117 By the Chairman: Q. Will you tell us something of the organization of the Pay and Records Department over there in respect of the matter with which we have been dealing this morning? — A. They have a Chief Paymaster and a Chief Auditor there, with a large staff, one branch of it keeping the pay and the other branch keeping the separation allowance and assigned pay. At that time, these accounts were kept in different ledgers, one ledger for a man's pay and allowances, another one for his assigned pay, and another for the separation allowance. I thought the system was bad, and I recom- mended that they be consolidated in one ledger. I did not see any reason why a man's account should not contain the whole transaction, instead of having it in three differ- ent ledgers. My chief reason for making that decision was to prevent losses, — I was more interested in seeing that military people did not get overpaid than that they should be underpaid. By Mr. Bennett: Q. As a matter of fact the question of overpay has been very serious? — A. Very serious. Q. And it assumed proportions of very great magnitude at one time? — A. It is pretty hard to tell, it is a matter of opinion; I do not suppose it will ever be ascer- tained. By Mr. Pardee: Q. What will never be ascertained? — A. The amount of the overpayments. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Do these overpayments occur in many cases? — A. The thing is so vast that it is a matter of curiosity; I think it would cost too much to ascertain the actual amount. Q. As a matter of fact, they have made very persistent efforts, following up your recommendation, to prevent overpayments, and to absorb some portion of the overpay- ments that have been made? — A. Yes, there were efforts made, we changed the system of keeping the books, and some changes were made by the officials themselves in the way of adjusting. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Where did those overpayments take place, in England, Canada or both places? — A. It might be in both. Perhaps a better way would be to take a concrete case: there was one case where a man's assigned pay was paid, $15 a month, I think it was, for eleven months; the assigned pay was paid to his wife for that period, and there was no record of it in his pay ledger, through the neglect, I presume, of the clerk who should have entered it there. If that soldier had, during that time, come into London and had drawn his money his account would have been settled on the basis of his pay ledger, and a sum of between $200 and $300, I think, would be lost for the time being. Of course there would be an attempt made to recover the amount when it was discovered about six months afterwards, and if it had been a casualty case, where the widow was pensioned they would be trj'uig to recover it from the widow. There are a great many cases in which the Pensions Board is asked to recover certain sums that were overpaid months niul months before. By the Chairman: Q. That is they seek to recover from the pension given to the widow the amount of the overpayment that was made to the man? — A. Yes. Q. I think the Government have decided not to do that? — A. It was very recently then, if they have. I have given my opinion very freely over there and I have given it to the Pensions Board too, but I do not think the Pensions Board have any right [Mr. John Fraser.] 1118 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS to deduct sucli amounts from the widow's pension; that the pension was given to her not for the purpose of paying her husband's debts. Q. I think that is fho attitude now taken by the Government? — A. It must have been taken very recently. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Has there been a cliange in the system with a view to preventing these over- payments? — A. Yes, they have transferred — I expect it has been done by this time — all the accounts to one ledger so that if notice is sent to the ledger-keeper that a man is killed, his account is closed automatically. Q. Have you any idea, even approximately, what the overpayments amount to? — ^A. I should imagine hundreds of thousands of dollars. Q. Is it not ascertainable more definitely than that? — A. No; when I was over there, there was a stafl; at work trying to recover the over-payments in connection with the men who" went over with the first contingent. Q. And do I understand you to say that while the amount may be as large as that, the cost of recovery would be too great to actually make the attempt? — A. Yes. For instance, you fiiid there hns been an overpayment in the Princess Pats, and you start a file of correspondence which is carried on for some time, and finally it reaches overseas, and it comes to some paymaster who proves up the account and finds out that the man who has been overpaid has been buried months before that. Bii the Choinnan: Q. Or he has been sent back to Canada and discharged? — A. There were not many _'' Princess Pats" came back to Canada. I did not see that there was any use in wasting time on over-payments to " Princess Pats " at all. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Outside of that, are there many cases of overpayment? — A. I saw one state- ment of about $75,000 of overpayment, and $25,000 or $30,000 o\it of that had been recovered. By the Chairman: Q. By deducting amounts from the subsequent pay of men while in the service? — A. If the men are still in the service there is still a possibility of recovering. Q. Are there many cases where an attempt has been made to get women to recoup separation allowance and assigned pay that were not due to them ? — A. Yes. Of course it is a hardship ; they had no doubt benefited from the overpayment, but that fact does not help them much when they have to refund it. I have a great deal of sympathy with the soldier and the soldier's family. Of course, I have to look at the other side of it. At the same time there is another class of losses, I do riot know what they amount to, but there must certainly be a lot of them, running into very large sums. The pay-lists in the early portion of the war, when the men went overseas, required some time before they were got into shape. They had, I believe, to have a roll call of the men over there in order to get the books right, and they found they did not have all the people that were on the pay-roll. Prom what you have heard from Mr. Borden, here to-day, the machinery that was set at work here upon these pay-rolls would keep grinding out cheques until they got some information from England that these people were not over there — take deserters, and some men that were turned out of the regiment Q. For physical unfitness? — A. Yes, for a variety of reasons, these men remained on the pay-list. Q. For assigned pay and separation allowance? — A. Yes, the paymasters, througli ignorance or incompetence, would fail to notify the Militia Department that these men [Mr. John Fraser.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1119 were discharged, and these payments \\(inl(l keep goiiis- on, and pos-sibly some of them are going on yet. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. You say you keep grinding out the cheques, what do you mean by that? — A. From the Department here. Q, They would not have information that the men liad left — where would these cheques go to? — A. To the people and to their families. Q. And do you mean to say that these cheques were endorsed and cashed? — A. Yes. By Mr. Bennett: Q. What the Auditor-General means is, that a man, we will say John Smith, was on the pay-list for a certain battalion, but John Smith was not with that battalion at all, but John Smith's wife got her separation allowance and assigned pay before the regimental paymaster reiwrted that he was not with the battalion, and when the mistake was discovered they could not get the money back. — A. They could not get the money back, and I do not believe they can give you an assurance yet, in the Militia Department, that they are not still paying some of these cases. Q. That is pretty well looked after now. — A. I will tell you what was done; when I was over there, and discussing these things, I said: "You ought to have some system of checking with Ottawa periodically." The result of that suggestion was that cards were taken from all the ledgers, giving the man's name, identity, and so forth, with the state of his account on the 30th November, and they have sent a staff out here who are engaged in checking off the accounts with the Militia Department books. Q. And the statement has been made that the result has been very satisfactory? —A. I do not know whether it will be satisfactory to the Committee to hear that they have found there were hundreds of thousands of dollars gone and only a comparatively small portion of it recovered. The Chairman: I may say, Mr. Auditor General, that at one period the patriotic fund drew the attention of the Government to a great many cases of women who were still drawing separation allowance and assigned pay, and whose husbands had gone back; and the Militia authorities were glad to get that information. But there have been very few cases of that kind during the last year. By Mr. Bennett: Q. After the situation became known, instructions were issued to the paymasters insisting that the members of the unit sign an acquittance roll thereby establishing beyond question the identity of the individual? — A. That is overseas? Q. Yes? — A. Yes, they sign the acquittance roll and the amount they draw is entered in their pass books. Q. He signs the acquittance roll which is with the paymaster in the field, which makes it certain that that identical individual is an existing member of the unit. That has been introduced also? — A. That was enforced, I think, from the beginning. Q. If there were a proper acquittance roll, that prevents the possibility of pay being given to some man under a false name, because his name is on the roll. That is clear. It does not get over the separation allowance and assigned pay question. Then there was later perhaps owing to your intervention, a line of communication established directly between the Pay and Records office, the point to which the acquittance rolls went back, and the Ottawa office, s<-) that I think about the middle of 1915 the serious character of the situation had passed away. It was really serious in the early stages of the game? — A. Yes, and serious in 1915. Mr. Bennett: Yes, I know it was; I personally went into the matter. [Mr. John Fraser.] 1120 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Would that acquittance roll of which you speak contain the names of men who did not sign? — A. No, it contained the names of all the men on the muster roll. Then those men as they got their pay signed the acquittance roll. Q. There were some names then without the men's signatures being obtained? — A. That is not quite correct. A man might not draw anything for the month. The paymaster makes out the roll. Q. Would there be some inquiry made? Are those names in blank? — A. No, they step up and draw their pay. Mr. Bennett: What the Auditor General is concerned about is the difficulties of assigned pay and separation allowance. The Witness : That is where the serious losses are. Mr. Bennett: There cannot be serious losses in the other thing. There may be a little, but they are insignificant. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. You have told us there are hundreds of thousands of these cases? — A. Pro- bably thousands. By Mr. Bennett: Q. I am not saying how correct this is, but I am advised that the effort that was made in London which may have been as the result of your visit, and the co- ordination of your work here, had absorbed the major part of the losses that there were, but that it had worked a hardship apparently on some officers' families with respect to separation allowance and to some privates families in regard to assigned pay ? — A. I do . not think it would be much in connection with officers because the number would not be large. Q. If there was a mistake of $500 in connection with ten thousand officers, going on for two years, and also mistakes in regard to assigned pay, it would involve a large amount. I suppose you realize that saving five cents a day with respect to 400,000 men would represent a large amount of money? — A. There are opportunities for saving. There was one piece of work in the office at London, in the audit branch, that I thought was useless, or, at least, a waste of effort. I said; "Why do you do it?" The reply was: "Well, we have no instructions not to do it." I said: "Cut it out, do not waste $10,000 trying to collect $100." I could not get it done then. I have a letter from my own assistant a few days ago saying they have adopted it at last and released 79 men. That is $100,000 a year probably saved. Q. I was going to mention that, as a matter of fact, you have more closely tied your departmental activities to the overseas expenditures now than a year ago, that is, you have made your department more closely responsible for the audit of overseas expenditures than it was a year ago? — A. No. Q. Did you not send over a direct representative? — A. Yes. We are slightly more responsible, because I wanted to create a little board over there to settle a lot of difficulties that arose very frequently, daily perhaps, that were referred out to the Militia Department here. There was nobody there supposed to be competent to deter- mine them. Q. And the establishing of an overseas Minister of Militia has necessitated a closer co-ordination between your department and the overseas department? — A. They have to do their own work. They had a representative of the Ottawa depart- ment there, but he could not settle these matters, through friction in the office — they were not consulting him. I suggested that a board consisting of the chief paymaster, the chief auditor. Colonel Ward and my representative should be established there to whom should be referred all tiiese little difficulties instead of writing to Ottawa and [Mr. John Fraser.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1121 waiting for months for action. Whether they are carrying it out or not, I do not know; I presume some of the work is being done. Q. I know, as a matter of fact, that there have been great improvements at the pay office in Millbank since the establishing of the Overseas Ministry, that is in respect of being able to act on their own responsibility and dispose of little matters involving expenditures, as well as the improvements you mentioned such as the releasing of the seventy-nine men. — A. It must be a good deal better. The Overseas Minister has evidently got a full equipment there now which is able to deal with things just as they would deal with them in Canada. By the Chairman: Q. In your judgment is the Pay and Eecords Office, in London, at present efficiently handled? — A. Well, at present I do not know. They have sent a great many of the office staff to the front, in the ordinary term, they have cleaned out the office. Q. That is, of able-bodied men? — A. And there were a lot of men that should never have been placed in the office. By Mr. Bennett: Q. There are twenty-five hundred men there? — A. I think there are seventeen hundred in the Pay Office alone — some incompetents — they were worse than useless; it -would have been better to pay them to sit out on the sidewalk and leave the books alone. By the Chairman: Q. AVere they returned soldiers? Mr. Bennett: They were returned from Canada, rather. A. They went from Canada to Great Britain, they did not get any further. I am not satisfied that they have the best system over there. They have a military system for a civil proposition. There are ranks in the office, discipline and everything the same as if they were at the front fighting Germans instead of keeping books. By Mr. Bennett: Q. How many colonels were there when you were over? — A. I do not know. I \^-ns afraid to speak to a man there in case 1 would have the wrong title. By the Chairman : Q. Do you mean by that, Mr. Fraser, that the authority that a man may have in the Pay and Records Office depends not upon his position in connection with finance but on the title that he carries in connection with his military standing? — A. Cer- tainly. A lieutenant has to recognize a captain as his superior, and the captain a major, and the major a colonel. Q. If a lieutenant was an expert in book-keeping ? — A. Go a little further, put him as a private. Q. If a private had been at home an expert accountant, and the colonel knew nothing comparatively about book-keeping, and both were in the office, would the colonel of necessity be a superior officer?— A. Certainly Q. Would he assume authority in matters of book-keeping over the accountant? — A. Oh, yes, and the chartered accountant who is a private dare not say a word about it. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You must be fair about that. Mr. Ross and Mr, Dowie were certainly accountants of high reputation, ^nd they are the men who were put in charge of the office as such? — A. Yes, but there is this Q. And those colonels and majors who exercise authority in the sense to which you refer, get their ultimate instructions from Mr. Ross and Mr. Dowie. You want to be fair on that point. — A. They were in charge of sections. [Mr. John Fraser.] 28277— !F1 1122 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. But the sections in turn had to report to Ross and Dowie? — A. Oh, no. Q. Well, it has been changed since my time. — A, Do you mean to say they had to report what they found there? Q. Had to report as to their administration. — A. Well, they had charge of those men. If the books were wrong they were wrong. Q. So far as the administration of the Millbank Pay Office is concerned, Ross and Dowie were primarily responsible? — A. Certainly they were. Suppose there was a section of chartered accountants keeping books there with a captain who was a plumber in charge of them. That section of men could get wrong. Colonel Ross would not know it, and Major Dowie would discover it six months afterwards when taking off the balance. Q. Ultimately it would come to them when the books were balanced? — A. The case I mentioned of the eleven months' overpayment, at the end of the first six months in the balance Major Dowie's staff found it. They made an observation, what we call a memo. That was sent to Colonel Ross — I don't suppose he ever saw it. That was supposed to be sent down and be corrected. Another five months had elapsed, nothing was done except keeping the man's account wrong. When I came across it there and pointed it out to Major Dowie, he said : " Next month I will find that again." I said : "What is the use of finding it ? Why don't you have a follow-up system ?" He said : " It was not my business to see that it was corrected." That is the chief paymaster. The chief paymaster cannot see what seventeen hundred men are doing. If it was a properly organized office on a business basis, this chartered accountant as a private could go to Colonel Ross and say : " Here these fellows have made an error, and the man whom they are acting under knows nothing at all about this ; I do not feel like having things wrong without reporting them." But under the present system he dare not go and report it. Q. He does not ? — A. The men told me these things. They told me : "I dare not." Q. He has a right to go to his superior officer, to his captain, and can insist that his memo, be transmitted to his next superior officer. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Would men unfamiliar with military discipline know that? — A. I am told that some of those chartered accountants brought from the front because they were experts became so disgusted with conditions that they purposely put their accounts wrong in order that they would be fired and sent back to the front again. They prefer being in the trenches. By Mr. Pardee: Q. They would sooner take the chance of being killed than work that way? — A. I do not know about preferring to be killed, but that is what happened. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Your idea is to have a pay office, an audited pay office. — A. A civilian office. Q. A properly audited pay office, under civilian authority, operated probably as a branch of the Department of Finance? — A. No, you would have to have a number of trained militia men in that. Q. You have not been over there since the new minister was established there? — A. Yes. Q. Wheal did you get back? — A. I arrived in St. John the day after Christmas, 1916 ; but it takes a good while to get a machine in running order, and the new minister has quite a lot of things to attend to. Q. Are you satisfied it is running better now ? — A. I think so. [Mr. John Fraser.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1123 By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. In connection with the overpayments of which you spoke, I suppose that efforts are constantly being made to recover these amounts? — A. Yes, there is a staff, I do fK't know how many, engaged on that work. Q. How do these efforts result, are the moneys returned, or refunded by the people who received cheques they should not have received? — A. Those would be sums paid at Ottawa here? Q. Yes. — A. I do not know exactly what your committee here is appointed to inquire into. Q. Everything in connection with this subject; is there anything in that con- nection upon which this committee might obtain further inforaiation ? — A. I certainly think there should be some inquiry into this question; I understand there have been very serious leakages in connection with these refunds. Q. How do you mean? — A. In connection with refunds that have been made and not accounted for. Q. Refunds made to Ottawa? — A. Yes. I am only giving hearsay now, but I would not say it unless I thought it were true. This is so vast a subject, that I cannot audit it in the way 1 audit other accounts, unless I create a staff such as they have or duplicate the work and keep the accounts, and it is not good business for me to si>end half a hiillion or $000,000 more trying to do the work that ought to be done properly in the first place. Q. How does this leakage occur to which you refer? — A. Sometimes cases where the person has had a separation allowance continued after the man was discharged and when it is found out after a while, the department asks the parties to make a refund. The refund comes back in cash, possibly, or money orders, or cheques, and I understand there is a lot of that money that has never gone to the credit of the Receiver-General. Q. Have there been any reports made to you on that subject? — A. No. Q. Would there be any reports made to you in the ordinary course of events? — A. No, they do not usually tell me those things. It is just like the paymasters, there are defalcations of paymasters, quite a lot of them, some of them from overseas. I will give you one instance of a man who was, I think it was $3,500 behind. He was overseas, he was dealt with over there and sent back to Canada. He was discharged and sent back to Canada to be dealt with here. He was dealt with here, by putting him in command of a new regiment as colonel. He is now over in France, and he has never paid up this amount. I asked them to commence deducting this amount from his pay and they said: ''Oh, we can't do that, the pay is to Colonel So and So; that was Paymaster So and So, we have no authority to deduct it from colonel So and So's pay." Q. Was it known here at headquarters that he was a defaulter? — A. Yes, cer- tainly, it is shown on the books there. I understand that lately there has been, I do not know whether it is a reorganization, or that different methods have been adopted here, but I heard Mr. Borden state to-day that Major Ingall was in charge there now. Q. Can Major Ingall deal with all these cases? — A. I think so. I am very glad he is there. I think it is a very good place to put him. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Do you know anything about the paymasters, whether they keep their books ]>roperly; have you anything to do with that? — A. Now it is all under inspection, I think Colonel Langton of the Militia Department looks after that now. Q. You have not to do with that? — A. Not with the inspection of it, but they have to be right when they come to me. [Mr. John Fraser] 28277— 71 A 1124 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. What has to be i-ight when it comes to you? — A. So far as the additions and all that sort of thing are concerned, they must be right; but they may be absolutely wrong as vouchers. There is talk about padded pay-rolls and so on, but we could not detect that. Witness retired. Major C. M. Ingall, called, sworn and examined. By the Chairman: Q. I understand that you are acting head of the Assigned Pay and Separation Allowance Pay Office here? — A. Yes. Q. You have been with us practically all the morning, and you nave heard tlie criticisms that have come from men and the explanation with reference to complaints regarding pay and allowances. We will be glad to have you first give your evidence in your own way and tell us what you can regarding matters which liave been under discussion this morning; afterwards we will ask you questions on the subject. — A. I proceeded overseas with the first division that left Canada, I went over in the flag- ship Franconia, and we made an endeavour on that ship to open up 33,000 accounts. Q. In what capacity were you at that time? — A. I was taken overseas* to be assistant base paymaster, * Q. Wlaere? — ^A. Originally at Salisbury, and it was intended I should then pro- ceed to Rouen, or wherever the base was in France. Q. What has your civilian occupation been? — A. I have been inspector in the Army Pay Corps and a member of the Canadian militia for twenty-seven years, and I have been making pay-sheets for about twenty-five years. Q, The 33,000 accounts were for the first contingent? — A. Yes. We found that it was impossible to open these in longhand. The authorities who despatched us overseas decided that the paymasters of the various units, and all their belongings should go on the ships on which their units were. The consequence was we were so spread out on the various ships that it was impossible to keep in touch with the other ships, so that, especially in cases where we did not have the attestation paper for a soldier his account was not opened. It was the intention when we went over there that all accounts should be kept at headquarters when in England, and eventually in France in the same manner, and I was to be superintendent of that division. Unfortunately when we arrived in England, the paymasters were allowed to go to the field. We went to Salisbury, and they gave us a hut 18 feet square where they expected us to run these accounts for 3-3,000 men. Col. iShanley was my chief at that time, and we looked over the field and found it was impossible to keep the accounts there, so we went to the town of Salisbury where we got a loft in an old building and started ^vith six clerks. Q. Aud you were the chief? — A. In charge of the compiling. Q. But you were supposed to be in charge of the paymasters of those battalions? — A. Colonel Shanley was my chief, and there was a field cashier in each division who made all advances to the men. Q. You might tell the committee how it was things went wrong, that has been brought out? — A. If the original plan laid down by the Militia Department, which had been considered, I understand, by some select committee of Parliament, had been carried out, all the difficulties that we experienced with regard to the soldiers' pay would never have occurred at all. But the paymasters were allowed to proceed to the field with their respective units taking their clerks with them, and each pay- master was therefore temporarily a law unto himself, instead of having them all l>rought to the one office at the base where they would have been under the super- [ Major C. M. Ingall.] RECEPTIOy, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1125 vision of one competent man. This, however, was never done. Just prior to the division moving away in February or March, 1915, we were able to i)ersuade the general staff that we should have larger quarters, and they eventually gave us a big house in Salisburj", where all the clerks were brought together. Q. And the paymasters? — A. No, just the clerks, the paymasters remained in tlie field to act as regimental accountants, and distribute the cash to the men, and any- thing else. When this office in Salisbury had been running for about six weeks, and after clearing up all the accounts, it was decided to move it to London. Q. And was that the progenitor of the London pay office? — A. Yes, that is wliat started the whole thing, except that Col. Ward was in London before that, in charge of a small staff, keeping in touch with the War Office and the Canadian High Commis- sioner. Just prior to going to London a Mr. Dowie came to Salisbury and said he had been selected by the Minister of Militia, and General Carson, to inquire generally into our systems, that as he was a chartered accountant, no doubt he would be able to give us a great deal of valuable assistance. We received definite instructions that we were to co-operate with Mr. Dowie and show him all our books and everything connected with them, and he did not find any fault with our work at Salisbury except that the staff should have been brought together at an earlier date so as to have better control of them. However, after going into the organization at London, the second contingent were with us by this time, and the business expanded so rapidly there was not a proper organization to handle all the accounts, and unfor- tunately I had control of the most difficult part of it, the accounts of the non- commissioned officers and men. At that time the powers that were in control would not allow me an assistant officer, but suddenly, one morning, they sent me five officers who were not, I am sorry to say, of very great assistance. They knew more about other things than they did about keeping accounts, and the one officer w^ho had come, having a knowledge of accounts, had no military experience at all, and could not apply military regulations in the circumstances we were then serving under. Many commanding officers when they arrived overseas found themselves suddenly empowered to deal with the men by giving them field punishment; they imposed fines upon their men for various offences, and we found that one commanding officer was piling up debit charges against some of his men amounting, in one case, to as much as $100, and the man was getting only $1.10 a day. By Mr. Pardee: Q. You say the commanding officers had the right to fine their men? — A. They gave their men field punishment and fines, but they did not understand that those fines could not be piled up against the man; under field punishment the man can be sen- tenced to lose his pay, but he has to fight the same as any other soldier. He would receive a punishment for some offence one day, and a short time afterwards he would come back again and be punished again; the forfeiture would be charged up against him, and sometimes these forfeitures would pile' up so that a man's pay would be mortgaged for a month ahead because the commanding officer had been clothed with a little brief authority. Then, "before the office was properly organized the troops went into action, and were at Langemarcke and St. Julien, and they began to come back to us before the accounts had been properly opened in England at all. The ledger accounts were in bad shape, the pay-lists had not been brought down properly to us. A man would come back with another man's pay book he had picked up on the field, having lost his own. He was issued money on that, and money was issued to the wrong soldier. As an example, there were two hundred and eighty-seven Smiths in the first division alone. There was really no satisfactory way to identify these men, the only way we could indentify the man at all was through his number, and we had to take the number sho\vn in the pay book, and the amount shown in the pay book was compared with the acquittance rolls of the paymasters rendered from France (Major C. M. Ingall.] 1126 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETURNED SOLDIERS and Flanders. Very frequently it was the case that entries were made against the wrong soldier. This matter was then discussed with the paymaster in chief of the Imperial Army, General Bray, and he recommended that the best thing to do was that the Canadians should follow the Imperial system of taking the soldier's pay book away from him when he became a casualty. This removed the full record when the soldier went into hospital. Bt/ tJie Chairman: Q. It was quite the common thing to do that? — A. That was the regular thing, that was the rule. . Q. For a considerable period? — A. For many months. Q. There may have been thousands of books taken away and never returned? — A. Yes, they are kept in steel cabinets which were constructed in the chief pay- master's office. What books have not been distributed are waiting to he distributed there. Q. Is any effort being made to distribute them? — A. Nothing being done at all so far as I know. Since the Auditor General's visit, the soldier's pay book is no longer taken away from him; he takes his pay book into hospital or wherever he goes. It is the same as a bank pass book. Q. Then, these complaints that the soldiers have made before this committee that many soldiers had no pay book, are perfectly valid? — A. Oh, yes, they are. Q. There must be many men back in Canada whose books are still in England? — A. Yes, I thing so. Hon. Mr. Murphy : The witness has told us that there are many books in the steel cabinets in England. The Witness : I know exactly where they are. Of course, another thing, there is a regulation that lays down that when a soldier loses his pay book he will tempor- arily forfeit any balance due to his account until such time as the account can be verified. There is another thing, in the recovery of all these debit balances, that has been brought up in discussion, that is the matter of over punishments and that sort of thing. This does not affect officers. In the case of warrant officers, N.C.O's and men fifty per cent of their pay is deferred, and they cannot get it until they are discharged from the service, that is the men who do not assign any of their pay to their families. Many think they have lost this money. We find many complaints consequently are not well founded. Last Saturday we took a whole delegation, after I had secured permis- sion, through the Assigned Pay Branch. Q. That is the Great War Veterans Association Delegation? — A. Yes. We took them right through the department and showed them the difficulties we were working under. Two-thirds of the men promised to go back and tell their comrades that a great many of their complaints had not been well founded. I do not know that I can tell you anything further with regard to the work overseas. Q. You might tell us a little more about the matter of debit balances how they occur and how a record is kept of them ? — A. The system in use in England from the beginning of the war is the system that is still in use for the pajanent of troops other than officers. The officers' accounts are kept either in the Bank of Montreal at Waterloo Place or else at Cox & Co., Charing Cross. The officers are never notified after the first payment is made of the amounts that they are to receive for their pay and allowances, if they are promoted, or for some cause or other are given a step in rank, they are not notified of what is deposited to their credit; it goes in a lump sam to the Bank. Officers have a small pass book issued to them when the first deposit is made. That is the way the whole of the officers are paid. With regard to the warrant officers, N.C.O's and men, there is a base paymaster in France, who receives money from the Treasury chest, and who distributes it. Each division has a cashier. There is no longer a corps cashier, but there was until a few months ago. [Major C. M. Ingall.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1127 The divisional cashier receives money and distributes it to all of the regimental paymasters in his division, for which he takes a receipt. The next day at a given point in the trenches, or in billets, the paymasters meet him, and return to him the acquittance rolls. These show the soldier's regiment|al number, rank, name and initials, the sum of money he receives, and the soldier is required to sign for this, and these rolls the paymaster hands to the cashier to show that he has properly expended the money. The clearance the paymaster receives is, each soldier steps up to the pay table, or wherever they are paid, to receive his pay. He holds his pay book with his thumb on his regimental number. Sometimes it is necessary to examine the little metal disc which each soldier carries for indentification purposes, to see if the numbers correspond. The paymaster enters in ink in the soldier's pay book the amount of money he receives and signs that the entry is correct. That i^ an offset against the acquittance roll. Q. The soldier is entitled to receive, if a married man, the balance remaining after deducting from his pay of $3.3 his assigned pay? — A. No, sir. As soon as the troops move into France, irrespective of their rank, they get a franc, or twenty cents, a day. That is all the soldiers get. Q. The rest is all held as accrued pay? — A. Yes, it accumulates. That is the system of pajinent. Acquittance rolls are made out in triplicate. The original and duplicate go down through the cashier to the base office and then to London. Enough time is lost in circulating through these offices before it goes to the Chief Paymaster's office where the soldier's account is really kept, especially where the soldier becomes a casualty. Q. He may have been evacuated more quickly than his book? — A. Frequently that is so. He eventually returns to Canada; he comes back here, and the final statement of his account — Q. Just there, we will follow that evacuated soldier. He has gone back to London. Where are his pay book and his account? — A. His pay book is with him, and his account is in London, no matter what Hospital he goes to. Q. From that time forward the base paymaster in France has nothing more to do with him? — A. Nothing. Q. His account is registered in London? — A. Yes. In the London office, as soon as the acquittance rolls are received, they are vouchered now into the various sections. They are sorted out, and are debited to the soldier's account. It has frequently been the case, and what has made the most serious complaint among the foldiers is, that sheets of the acquittance rolls are lost for a time. They do not turn up in some cases for perhaps three months. The soldier disputes the account and says: "Produce the acquittance roll" and the chief paymaster's office in London cannot do it. The soldier goes away with the idea that he has not received all the money that is due to him. Q. What is the reason for the loss of these sheets?— A. Heretofore the acquit- tance rolls had circulated among too many branches. There never was proper custody or registration kept of them. Now the acquittance rolls are all paged, and they are sent into a vouchering section, who are the only ones who handle them. Q. That point is now protected you think? — A. I think so, largely. Q. The complaints arising from the soldiers in London that they are not able to prove their pay through lack of acquittance rolls is now largely a matter of the past? — A. It is. Supix)se a soldier is evacuated from France to England and sent back to Canada, and the acquittance rolls have not come back from France to London as rapidly as they should have. In that case the soldier would have a debit to go against him. Q. Have you any method to suggest whereby the transfer from France to London could be speeded up? — A. I have always been under the impression, in my [Major C. M. Ingall.] 1128 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS humble capacity that the office has not been conducted in London as it should have been. Instead of keeping these accounts in London, the man's ledger account up to the time he is evacuated from France should always have been kept in France. If the accounts could be kept in a loose loaf ledger, when the soldier was evacuated from France, his ledger page could cross to England with him, and it would only be kept in England while he was actually in England. If that were done, accurate infor- mation would at all times be promptly available. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Did you make any recommendation to that effect? — A. No, sir, I never did. After finishing my duties overseas with the compiling division, I was sent to the audit office under Mr. Dowie to organize the auditing system of the soldiers' account, which I did. That was the first office connected with Canada that employed returned soldiers. I had approximately 135 returned mq^i, gassedl and wounded fellows, working in the audit office, and a more satisfactory crowd of men I do not think it was possible to get together. Frequently the men who had been gassed could not do as much work as an ordinary office man would do, owing to their having fits of coughing; but they were good faithful men, men who had been employed in banks, and they made the best men to handle an office like that. Besides they knew the military side. They had their clerical experience on this side and their service experience in France. I do not think we could have found more valuable men to carry on that kind of work. By the Chairman: Q. In your judgment, is the office in England at the present time capable of carrying this work on in a satisfactory manner? How long is it since you left? — A. I was there with the Auditor General during his last trip. I was with him mo«t of the time, and came back with him on the 27th of December. The only thing that I think is this: that whereas Colonel Ross and Major Dowie are both very competent gentle- men and good business men, and understand putting systems into the ordinary civil office there is no officer whose great experience over there is so necessary perhaps as Colonel Ward''s in a consulting capacity. Messrs. Ross and Dowie know all about the civil side of compiling the accounts, but the difficulty is that there are many intricacies in the soldiers' accounts where they are affected by military law. A good auditor with military experience going through these accounts knows that a com- manding officer has not power to debit a soldier with a certain charge, and he is able to correct it. It makes the general feeling in the service better, and we do not have so many complaints afterwards. The Chairman: You need a military lawyer, so to speak? By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. That is the knowledge that Colonel Ward possesses? — A. Yes. When these other gentlemen from Montreal came into the office, a bad feeling immediately sprang up, and Colonel Ward's great experience has not been taken advantage of in "a con- sulting capacity. The stand was taken at first by Ross and Dowie that Colonel Ward had not the executive ability to swing such a large problem, but he did have the technical knowledge that was necessary, and even at present, so far ae I know, this wide knowledge is not being taken full advantage of. Q. Is he a Canadian? — A. No, an Englishman. He was eighteen years, I believe, in the Royal Navy. He was, I believe, for many years a Fleet paymaster, and had other most important administration posts. By the Chairman: Q. Yaur idea is that the military and civilian elements in the London office do not co-operate as much as they might? — A. The Auditor General has expressed the whole thing. Lower ranks are not at liberty to go higher up. Whereas, as Mr. [Major C. M. Ingall.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1129 Bennett says, the soldier has a right to appeal higher up, if he did it once, he knows he would lose the position he holds. I could name some junior officers who have told me they would be doing themselves an injury by reporting what they feel about the books. Q. Do you concur in Mr. Fraser's statement that some superior officers have no knowledge of book-keeping and financial matters? — A. Yes. I do not know who all the officers are who are employed in England at present, but many of those who were there when the office was in the making would be much better in the field than in the office. Q. Their soldierly attainments were superior to their book attainments? — A". Oh yes, very much so. Bij Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. When did you come back? — A. The first time in January, 1916. Q. A year ago last .lajuiary i- -A. Yes. Q. What was the nature of your employment? — A. I was brought back to join the Department as C'hief .Tns])eetor and General Auditor of Pay Accounts and Records for ihe Forces in Canada. Q. That is, you Mere brought back to occupy the position you have just riicu- tioned? — A. Yes. Q. And did you occupy that position ? — A. Yes, I still occupy it. By the Chairman: Q. You have been a sort of inspector, have you not? — A. I have been Chief In- spector. Q. Of pay a lid allowances? — A. Yes. Q. And in that capacity you have travelled over Canada, visiting the various military districts and looking over the methods employed by the staff there and at the head office with regard to pay and allo'wances? — A. Yes. Q. Can you suggest to us any lines along which there may be improvement in meeting those criticisms with respect to pay and allowances? — A. The great difficulty now is that the orxpeditionary force has practically all gone overseas and, of course, I am not acquainted with what organization is being adopted over there. Q. I am speaking of casualties? — A. At the present time we are bringing in all these account inspecting officers. There has been a captain at the headquarters of each district, known as the District Inspector of Accounts and Records. He is responsible to me, and through me to the Department. This system has worked out very well. Q. Have you the selection of those men? — A. No, sir. I have not. I selected two or three of them, men who had been overseas, and whose work I knew, and the Department were kind enough to employ these officers. All these officers are being brought to Headquarters because the troops have gone overseas, and the local offices are being closed, the proposal being to carry on the entire auditing of the pay accounts from Headquarters. If compulsory service, or anything like that wore to be adopted. 1 think we should again open up audit offices; I have a small skilled staff at Head- quarters, and tlioir duty is to assist in instructing men in their duty as paymaster before they take up those duties, so that we shall not have the same trouble to contend with that we have had with the organizations that have gone overseas. Of course, the great difficulty was that up to a year ago the paymasters were selected in many cases on account of some personal connection, and in many cases their particular fitness for the job they were to take over was not always taken into consideration. Now for twelve months we have had an insi>esctor going out and instructing these people, and checking up their work, visiting them in their office and giving them instruction on the books. I think Captain Aumond will confirm my statement that the trouble is between the Military Hospitals Commission Command and our own people. If it were [Major C. M. Ingall.] 1130 SPECIAL COMMITrEE—C.E.F.—RETVRNED SOLDIERS definitely fixed that the Casualty Paymasters were all controlled by the Casualty Pay- master at Headquarters and that the Military Hospitals Conmiission would have nothing whatever to do with the payment of troops, instead of having dual control ; if it were all under one central head so that we would be able to put our finger on the one who makes a mistake it would be very much better. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Will you explain what the Military Hospitals Commission has to do with these men? — A. When a soldier goes in to hospital he immediately goes on their pay-sheet ■ for pay. Until a few weeks ago, the Hospitals Commission's paymaster at the various centres, requisitioned on the district paymaster at the Militia Department for the amount he required, but did not have to account to him for it. Q. That would be an officer of your service? — A. No, sir, the Military Hospitals Commissions paymaster is appointed by the Military Hospitals Commission, and that paymaster gets the funds from the district paymaster of the Militia Department, and distributes it to the soldiers who are lying in the hospital or who are convalescing and reporting to the hospital. The secretary of the Military Hospitals Commission, Mr. Scammell, came over to militia headquarters and asked the paymaster-general if he would allow our inspectors to go in and inspect these accounts to see that over- payments were not piling up. We took it up and found that pay and allowances were being irregularly issued, not wilftdly, but through lack of knowledge, and that is why I suggest that if the Hospitals Commission accounts were put under us we would get better results. Q. You have heard the Auditor General speak about overpayments and refunds in cash, and the leakage that has occurred; will you tell us what has happened in that regard? — A. Unfortunately Col. Mack has been down ill, and I have been sent over temporarily to relieve him in the Assigned Pay and Separation Allowance Division. I found out there that a great many people have authority to sign correspondence, and they send it out over their own name, they sign for the officer in charge. I went over there and told them at headquarters that in my opinion in such a large office as that where there are some six hundred clerks who are handling corresjwndence, it was not wise to allow so many clerks to sign the correspondence unless in the name of and for some officer. The reason for that was I was told that people who had very slight knowledge in business affairs were drawing cheques, when making refunds, in favour of the person in the office who signed the letter requesting refunds. Of course, if the person who received such cheque were dishonest he would ca^h the cheque, and that would be the last of it. In some cases I found out that money had been sent in for refunds, in actual cash, and that this money had never apparently been properly brought to account. I have two cases, where, at present, I am collecting, the clerk who received cash is paying back in instalments, the amount of money he signed for in the book kept for that purpose, and had not properly brought into refund account. Q. This was money that had been returned to him in cash? — A. Yes, there was one case where three twenty dollar bills came back, and the clerk says he turned it over to somebody else, but he has not been able to produce any receipt for it. Q. And that refund was made to him, because of that particular clerk having signed the letter that went out asking for it? — A. Yes. I have explained to the staff, therefore, that it did not give me any pleasure to have my name on every letter that went out, but that it was sound business, and every letter now bears my name. All refunds now have to go to a special officer who has been appointed to receive them, and there are never any refunds received during the day that are not deposited in the bank; all cheques received during the day, up to 3 o'clock, are sent to the bank promptly. [Major C. M. Ingall.] RECEPTION, THE ATM EXT AND RE-EDVCATION 1131 By the Chairman: Q. From whom do the refunds come, from men or from women? — A. I think two-thirds of them come from the women. Q. Does it not often involve liardship upon the women to have to refund the money? — A. Since the establishment of the Board of Review on Separation Allow- ance, we have established a system whereby wherever the refunds are shown to be large and that it would create hardship in the family, that it shall be brought down to my own notice, for reference to Board of Review if necessary. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Do you not think that the letters sent out from that office should be toned down a little? — A. I have seen some letters that went out from there in the past, that I was ashamed of. We have now taken steps to remedy this. There are about 3,000 letters a day to be signed by a small group of officers. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Have you any record of the sums that have been returned and are not accounted for? A. Yes, these are all being properly accounted for now. Q. Can you state generally what the amount is that you have been able to trace and get back through the refunds? — A. These figures are not accurate, but approxi- mate, I think that the overpayments that I have note of would amount to from $245,000 to $255,000. Of these I have been able to get back in refunds, up to the present, approximately $115,000, and the other sums are now properly held "in suspense." There never was a suspense account until a few months ago, but now all these out- standing amounts go into suspense account, and when refunds come in, we write them off in the proper manner. Q. How about those other sums that were sent in in cash, have you any account of them? — A. No, sir, that is a thing that happened before my time, and although we have been trjdng to establish what that amount is, so far I have not been able to get anything very satisfactory. By the Chairman: Q. I would like to ask you to take 25 or 30 cases of refunds that have been mad.? and give us details of them, in order that we may judge for ourselves the reason why those refunds were demanded, and the conditions of claiming when the refund had been made? — A. Seven-eighths of these cases, I think that is a fair proportion, a very large proportion of them are on account of this office not being notified from overseas when casualties occur. This is the great difficulty. Witness retired. Committee adjourned. APPENDIX TO No. 13 PROCEEDINGS. Exhibits Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6. 1133 EXHIBIT NO. 1. DEi'AKT.MIC.NT OF ^MlLITIA AND DEFENCE. Ottawa, May 18, 1917. Sir, — With reference to the evidence given by me before the Committee this morn- ing, I beg to transmit, herewith, copy of " Instructions for dealing with Casualties and Non-eifectivcs, generally, of the Canadian Overseas Military Forces," to which I referred in the above-mentioned evidence. I would like to draw the attention of the Committee to section 10, page 7, which deals with the duties of the hospital representatives; and, also, to section 13, page 13, defining the functions of the Canadian Army Pay Corps — and to Appendix V, page 37, laying down the duties of paymasters of the hospitals in England. I have the honour to be, sir. Your obedient servant, G. C. JONES, Surgeon-General, Medical Commissioner. The Clerk of the Parliamentary Committee on Returned Soldiers, House of Commons, Ottawa. EXTRACTS FR0:M OFFICIAL CIRCULAR SUBMITTED BY SURGEON- GENERAL G. C. JONES. 1. Commencement. — Commencing on the 10th day of March, 1917, the system outlined in this circular will be brought into force for the purpose of dealing with warrant officers, N.C.O's. and men of the Canadian Overseas Military Forces. 2. Casualties and Men not fit for General Service co7isist of those. — (a) Overseas Casualties who arrive in England from two sources: — (i.) Evacuated from hospitals of expeditionary forces to hospitals in England. (ii.) Evacuated from base camps overseas direct to England, when they will be sent to their regimental depot. (h) Local casualties, who are admitted to hospital from units in the British Isles. (c) Not fit for general service, who have been placed in Categories " B," " C," " D," or " E." 3. Categories. — It is the duty of every officer of the Canadian forces to understand and be familiar with the system of categorizing applicable to the Canadian forces, as set out in circular issued by the Auditor General, Canadians, on the 30th January, 1917. (Reference: A. G. Canadians, 2-1-29.) Categorization is the sorting of soldiers into groups in accordance with their medi- cal fitness for service. 1135 1136 SPECIAL COMMITTKE—C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS There are five groups, viz. : — (a) Fit for general service. (&) Fit for service abroad (but not fit for general service). (c) Fit for service in England. (d) Temporarily unfit for service in categories "A," "B," or "C," but likely to become fit Mdthin six months. (e) Unfit for service in categories "A," " B," or '' C," and not likely to become fit within six months, and therefore to be discharged from the 10. Hospital Representative — (A) At each hospital or group of hospitals, there will be a combatant officer, as set out in Appendix II to this circular, who will be known as the hospital repre- sentative. He will (i) Be responsible directly to the Adjutant General, Canadians, (ii) Take executive action on all cases being discharged from hospital and generally take charge of all casualties when the functions of the medical service cease, (iii) Render a return of all men discharged from hospital showing the cate- gories in which they have been placed, and the manner in which they have been dealt with by him. (B) On receipt of the nominal roll mentioned in para. 9 (G), he will do such of the following as are applicable: — (i) Arrange with the paymaster of the hospital to give the man a minimum advance of three (3) pounds, or such sum in excess not exceeding five (5) pounds in all, as may be warranted by the state of the man's account as shown in his pay book. (ii) See that the man has been issued with clothing and necessaries at the hospital, (iii) Grant the man 10 days' ''sick furlough," and give to him a railway warrant, together with a route letter with instructions as to where he will report on the expiration of his furlough, according to the category in which he has been placed. The route letter will show the category in which the man has been placed, the date when and the unit to which the man is to report, the man's unit in France, his regiment, and his address while on furlough, (iv) A man will be directed in the route letter to report after "sick furlough" according to the category in which he has been placed as follows: — (a) If placed in category "A," to his reserve battalion or unit, (fe) If he requires "hardening" and has been placed in category "D (i)" to the command depot affiliated with his regiment. _ (c) If placed in category "B" or "C" to his regimental depot. (d) If placed in category "E," and is to be discharged in : — (1) Canada, — ^to the Canadian Discharge Depot, Buxton. (2) British Isles,— to the hospital representative who issued the route letter. (V) Several copies of all route letters will be made and disposed as follows :-^ No. 1. — Delivered to the casualty. No. 2. — Canadian Record Office. No. 3. — Regimental depot. RECEPTION', TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION II37 No. 4. — The unit to which the casualty is to report on the expiration of his " sick furlough " if other than his regimental depot. No. 5.— File. No. 6.— C.C.A.C. (until it is finally disbanded). (VI) Send all documents concerning the man which he has received at the hospital, in accordance with para. 8 (E). (VII) If a man has been admitted to hospital from a unit in England and has not been lowered in category since admission to hospital, he will be sent direct to the unit from which he was admitted, and all documents obtained, together with proper notification showing his category, will be sent to that unit, but if he has been lowered in category by the Medical Board at the hospital and placed in categories ''B," "C," "D," (i) or "E," he will be treated in the same manner as an overseas casualty, except that unless in category "E" he will not be given "sick furlough" and instead of a route letter he will be given a "pass," and notice by wire will be sent to: — (a) The unit from which he was admitted to hospital. (&) His regimental dei>ot. (c) The unit to which he is sent. (VIII) Will remove all men from hospital within 48 hours from the time when he has been notified that they are ready to be discharged from hospital and has received copies of the Board Proceedings (if any), Medical History Sheet, Transfer Clothing Statement, and Certificate of Freedom from venereal and other infectious diseases. (IX) He will perform all duties in connection with the discharge of men, as allotted to him in Appendix IV. Note I. — Local casualties will not be given "sick furlough" on discharge from hospital unless they have been placed in category " E " for discharge, when they will be treated in the same manner as overseas casualties. Note II. — In the event of an overseas casualty being readmitted to hospital from a command depot or from any other unit, on account of being unable to carry on at the command depot or such other unit, he will not be granted "sick furlough" a second time on being discharged from hospital. The hospital representative will, in all cases, scrutinize the Board Proceedings and the Medical History Sheet, in order to ensure that men do not get " sick fur- lough" a second time. Men so readmitted will be sent direct to the unit to which they are to report without "sick furlough," and such unit notified by wire. Note III. — The reserve battalion or reserve unit of an overseas casualty is that which reinforces the battalion or unit on the strength of which the man was carried at the time when he became a casualty. 13. Canadian Army Pay Corps. — (A) Will arrange for an advance to each man being sent on "sick furlough" from hospital, of a minimum of three (3) pounds, or such sum in excess, not exceeding five (5) pounds in all, as may be warranted by the state of the man's account as shown in his pay book. (B) Will see that all last pay certificates are at once prepared and forwarded in accordance with instructions contained in Appendix IV. (C) The paymaster at each Canadian hospital will comply with the instructions contained in Appendix VI. 28277- 1138 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— EETUR'S' ED SOLDIERS Appendix V.— (Page 37.) PAYMASTER AT HOSPITAL, For tlie purpose of ensuring that there will be no delay between the time that a man is paraded before the paymaster of the hospital, and the time that the paymaster of the hospital makes application to the divisional paymaster for last pay certificate, the paymaster of the hospital will ascertain: — (a) That all advances and stoppages of pay have been entered in the man's pay book. (h) That an account of all articles issued on repayment by the quarter- master of the hospital has been received by him so that same may be taken into consideration at the time application for last pay certificate is being made. (c) From the orderly room, that there are no stoppages of pay recorded against the man which have not been promulgated in orders of the hospital. (d) That, in cases where Canadian soldiers have been admitted into that particular hospital from another Canadian hospital, a statement of advances and stoppages for the previous 30 days has been received from the paymaster of the former Canadian hospital. (e) That all advances and stoppages of pay may have occurred in a British hospital have been entered in the man's pay book. Note. — All paymasters of Canadian hospitals will see that the above information is on hand at the earliest possible date after a patient is admitted to hospital, regard- less of the man's condition, so that when last pay certificate is applied for no delay will be caused by lack of same. EXHIBIT No. 2. [copy.] MILITARY HOSPITALS COMMISSION, CANADA. Suhmitted hy Secretay E. H. Scammell. MEMORANDUM OF STEPS TAKEN TO PROVIDE HOSPITAL ACCOMMODATION IN NOVA SCOTIA. On September 30, 1916, our returns show that we had thirty (30) beds at the Ross Home, Sydney, twenty-four (24) of which were occupied, and at Kentville five (5) tubercular patients. In September, the Commission took over the Clayton Home, Halifax, twenty (20) beds; took steps to open the Discharge Depot, Halifax, with accommodation for fifty-five (55), and took into consideration various other buildings with a view to further extension of its accommodation in Nova Scotia. In November, 1916, arrangements were made to increase the accommodation for tubercular patients up to one hundred (100) beds; properly equipped accommodation for five hundred (500) men, including an isolation hospital for tubercular patients of thirty-five (35) was put under way. In December, the most available building of proper size seemed to be the Arts Building of Dalhousie University. The governors of that university were approached, and consented to its use, but this involved providing accommodation elsewhere for the faculties of the university, then occupying the building. During the time that RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1139 plans for the carrying out of this work were being prepared, it might be noted that the Works Department of the Commission were busy with providing accommodation in every province of the Dominion. Before the plans for Halifax were available, at the end of February and the beginning of March, the situation in Nova Scotia was reconsidered and instead of using the Arts Building of Dalhousie, through the generosity of the Presbyterian Church, Pine Hill was made immediately available with accommodation for one hundred and thirty-five (135), and a new hospital with accommodation for three hundred and ten (310) was at once proceeded with at Camp Hill. This course obviated the necessity of delay incidental to providing accommoda- tion for the faculty of that university, and the expense of additions and alterations, and placed a substantial building on property owned by the Government. In addition, the Moxham residence at Sydney, N.S., was secured, and is now being altered to fit it for the accommodation of about one hundred and ten (110) invalided soldiers. Thus, since November, there has been secured in Nova Scotia, accommodation for: — Tubercular patients 100 100 Other institutions now in operation — Pier No. 2, Halifax* 500 Pine Hill, Halifax 135 635 Institutions noxv being prepared — Moxham Hospital, Sydney, N.S 110 Camp Hill, Halifax, 310 420 *Entire equipment not yet delivered in full. EXHIBIT No. 3. Submitted by Major J. L. Todd, Board of Pensions Com)nissioners. EXTRACT FROM A REPORT ON HOW FRANCE RETURNS HER SOLDIERS TO CIVILIAN LIFE. SUGGESTED ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEDURE FOR THE " LIQUIDATION OF THE WAR." Not SO long after the commencement of the war, it became very evident to those who had competent knowledge that many changes would be made in the laws, regula- tions, and practices by which France had been accustomed to return her soldiers and sailors to civilian life, it is necessary to do so in order to secure harmony with the conditions surrounding the present war. As has been suggested in the introduction and in the preceding section, a new procedure is in process of formation and much new legislation is being considered or has already become law. Whatever tlie procedure finally adopted may be, it is very certain that it will tend towards a realization in practice of the very definite democratic principles underlying French national organization. A very able report (Appendix G 41) by MM. Lefas and Masse (Appendix E, 20), creates the phrase '* The Liquidation of the War." This report expresses the universal belief that the liquidation, the winding up, of the war is a matter of the very first 28277— 72i 1140 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS importance. By the liquidation of the war is understood all those operations which will be concerned in securing the reconstitution of normal national life at the end of the war. To secure a proper liquidation of the war in matters connected with discharged soldiers and sailors will be a work of extraordinary dimensions; in order that it may be well done it is necessary that a proper organization for its execution should exist. Excellent legislation concerning this matter has been and will be adopted; but the existence of good laws and proper regulations will be useless if a competent organiza- tion is not provided to ensure their operation. Urgent efforts to supply that organ- ization are being made. It is recognized that it must be prompt and accurate in its work. While the public will realize its difficulties and excuse some slight delay in its operations, because of the enormous amount of work with which it must deal; no unnecessary delay, due to lack of forethought in its organization, will be forgiven. In their report, MM. Lefas and Masse classify the measures which they advise for securing through liquidation of the war, in three groups: — 1. A simplification of the records at present kept; 2. A simplification of the procedure by which pensions are now granted and paid. 3. The establishment of a central body, responsible for the administration of the whole question. Matters included under the first heading are details to which it is unnecessary to refer here. Under the second heading, it is pointed out that it would be useless to initiate an ideal organization in any one of the departments at present connected with the administration of pensions, unless similar improvements were made in the organiza- tion of all other departments concerned in the matter. Only by doing so can the desired expedition in the liquidation of pensions be secured. The great bulk of the report is occupied in a discussion of the matter referred to under the third heading. The discussion is prefaced by observing that the mass of business is so enormous that it will be insufficient to merely increase the size of the offices and the number of the clerks employed, before the war, in peace time in dealing with it. It will be neces- sary to reconsider the whole question and to re-design the machinery formerly dealing with it in order to secure prompt and economical execution. It is recommended that an independent pension service should be created. It is recommended that this service should be subdivided into eight or nine appropriate sections. It is recommended that this service (" Direction des Pensions et Secours ") should pay pensions to soldiers and sailors, and to civilians; it should also pay any gratuities given to indigent soldiers and sailors, or their dependents who are not entitled to pension. The amount of work which such a service would be called upon to do is suggested by the following figures : — It is estimated that already there are from one hundred and twenty to one hundred and fifty times more pensions to be dealt with than there were before the war; there are already about 1,800,000 pensions for soldiers, sailors, and their dependents. The office which at present gives assistance to discharged men and their dependents who are not entitled to pensions, expects to open, during the coming year, about 600,000 files and to pay out about 58,000,000 francs; in the following year it expects to be called upon to do about half as much. The importance of dealing promptly and properly with the pensions question is insisted upon. There will be no village in France without its pensioners. The laws concerning the administration of pensions will be among the most important and the most discussed of the country's statutes. SECEPTION, TREATMENT AND KE-EDUCATION 1141 The Direction des Pensions et Sccours will form one of the main parts of the proposed organizations, a " record office " will form the other. There are several oper- ations, at present, looked after by different departments, which should be combined in a single orgaTiization. These are operations connected with the succession (wills and heirs) of soldiers, with the supply of information concerning soldiers, and with the keeping of their records. At present, about 1,024 secretaries are employed in looking after soldiers' successions; 1,150 are engaged in supplying information con- cerning soldiers (this department has about 3,000,000 names on its files) the accurate keeping of soldiers' records is important, at present about 3,000 clerks are engaged in maintaining them. It is suggested that the succession office, the information bureau, and the record office should all be combined in a single organization. The new record office would constitute a central depot where there would be filed, once for all, birth, n»arriage and death certificates and all information of any descrip- tion licaring upon the service or status of the soldier concerned. Such a record office would form the centre of the organization devised for the liquidation of the war. It would employ a very considerable number of clerks, now, and until a few months after the war; then their number would diminish rapidly and, if the war is liquidated successfully, in a year, their numbers would be counted by tens instead of hundreds. If a central record office is established existing procedure will be greatly simplified. For example, at the present time, on the death of a soldier it is necessary for his family to come in contact with no less than five different departments; this situation involves an unfortunate and an entirely unnecessary duplication of documents. If a central record office is established it will maintain a complete set of papers for each soldier and will give, to any department requiring it, complete information concern- ing any aspect of the individual for whom it is desired. Not the least of the many advantages which the central record office would give would be a means of securing co-ordination between the ministry of war, from which all pensions are now paid, with works of private benevolence. By making easy refer- ence to its records, the central office would make it difficult for unworthy individuals, to receive assistance, to which they have no right, from public or private sources. Connected with the pension and records officer would be a director's office (cabinet du directeur) ; the duty of this office would be to consider the higher questions of administration. It would follow the proposals for change in the pensions laws and other legislation affecting the interests of disabled men, which are certain to appear from time to time; it would also concern itself with financial questions. The Gov- ernment is confronted now with the necessity of finding funds to pay the many hun- dreds of millions of francs worth of pensions, already past due; the capatilized value of these pensions alone represents many thousands of millions of francs. The director's office would take steps to make it certain that the pensions laws were properly administered and well understood by all; so as to make it difficult for scamps to attempt sharp practice in connection with them. By the director's office, also, a close understanding and an active co-operation would be insured between the Government and many of the works of private bene- volence which already, and in the future, will wish to provide assistance for disabled men, and their dependents, who may require it. Lastly, since the duties of the organization proposed for the liquidation of the war aie so great, and so important, it should be given powers commensurate with its responsibilities. Legislation containing an estimate of the personnel and material which the estab- li.shment of such an organization would require is already before the Leg- islative Chambers. The opinion of both the Senate and the Parliament seems to be favourable to it. The need for a central administration body, empowered to control all matters connected with the return of soldiers and sailors to civilian life, is very generally appreciated and the establishment of such a body is desired; whether the 1142 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Office National des Reforms et Mutiles de la Guerre (Appendix A, 13), with its depart- mental and local committee (Appendix G, 72) will succeed to in performing the func- tions designed for it remains to be seen. It will probably do so (Appendix E, 29) although certain misunderstandings may at first impede its organization and opera- tion. Whatever the central administrative body in Paris may be, the carrying out of the measures adopted for the liquidation of the war will remain with executive bodies situated in the departments (Provinces, the Departmental and local committees men- tioned above.) In the five years immediately preceding the commencement of the war, France paid pensions and gratifications to the number of persons mentioned in the following table :— Invalidity pensions 460 Long service pensions 6,885 Gratuities on discharge 484 To widows and orphans 1,040 Assistance ' 50,000 EXHIBIT No. 4 Ottawa, May 7, 1917. Sir Herbert R. Ames^ House of Commons, Ottawa. Dear Sir Herbert, — As you requested, I am enclosing a list of our local district offices, showing the date at which they were or are to be opened, the name of the officer in charge and giving a list of the towns at which there is to be a resident agent as representative of the district office. I am, Yours sincerely, J. L. TODD. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AM) RE-EDUCATION 1143 ■e*i |2 ■^ o «= s •, t>- 1^ t- 1^ t^ t^ t^ ' r(M"S t^"ic 'i'"— "« CO 5> o O '^ o « g 2 .2SE III: §:amc5 C— i 2ffl = 1 O 4> «2 1144 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS EXHIBIT No. 5. No. B.P.C. 649-S-4651. Ottawa, May 16, 1917. Sir Herbert Ames, House of Commons, Ottawa, Ont. Pension. No. 415213, Pte. T. Stafford. Form. 13 Batt'n, C.E.F. Sir, — I have the honour, by direction, to acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 10th instant, and to inform you that the case of the marginally named man has been thoroughly gone into. This man has had a weak back since June, 1913, when he injured the muscles by lifting an anchor weighing 610 pounds. He was confined to bed for one month and was unable to work for three months. All medical boards agree that the aggravation on service was very slight. A special report reads " There is not svifficient evidence to suspect that the alleged damage was due to shell explosion." It is apparent that the gratuity awarded is all that is indicated by the evidence submitted. I have the honour to be, sir, Your obedient servant, J. L. TODD, For the Board of Pension Commissioners foi Canada. CWB/BB. I.CII'liaW Ih'KATMl'lST AM) JfE EDUCATIOS 1145 EXHIBIT No. 6. Eesolution. Kesolved, that the Toronto Branch of the Canadian Manufacturers' Association, having considered the recommendations made by the Toronto Housing Company, Limited, to the Dominion Government, re housing and garden allotments, place on record its warm approval of the plans suggested. Further Eesolved, that a copy of this resolution be forwarded to the members of the Dominion Cabinet, with the request that favourable consideration be given to the recommendations presented by the Toronto Housing Company, Limited. Toronto, May 17, 1917. SCHEME OF THE TORONTO HOUSING COMPANY, LIMITED. Ee Provision for Sulurhan Community Settlements for Eeturned Soldiers. The Directors of the Toronto Housing Company have studied the present" problem of scarcity of desirable housing accommodation in the city of Toronto, especially having regard to the soldiers already returned, and to the many others still to be pro- vided for, when peace is declared. As a result of their investigation and study the following suggestions have been submitted to the Dominion Government, together with a letter urging that immediate consideration be given to the recommendations made. The following suggestions are submitted with a view to providing assistance other than direct monetary contribution toward the support of the semi-disabled, and for soldiers' widows who have children to care for and support. It is assumed that the danger of assistance which tends to pauperize- is fully realized, and that plans only will be considered which encourage personal effort and productive labour on the part of the beneficiaries. So large a proportion of our population will be affected by the war, the adoption of any other course might lower the vigour and tone of Canadian national life. Our suggestions, therefore, deal only with means of supplementing by their own labour the incomes of those who will be pensioners of the Government, and especially of those who from any cause are debarred from engaging in arduous labour. Provisions of the most liberal character are already being provided for those who are able and willing to engage in agriculture. There will be, however, and indeed already are, many who are unable or unwilling to engage in ordinary farming pur- suits. The care of cattle, ploughing, threshing and the other manifold duties of farm life present apparently insuperable obstacles. The cultivation of a small parcel of land would appear to them less likely to end in failure and not beyond their power and ability. It is recommended, therefore: 1. That land suitable for garden settlements be secured at carefully selected points, and provision made for rural or suburban community settlement. 2. That the land be acquired only in districts having (or soon to have) satisfac- tory transportation facilities. Along the line of radial railways would be of self- evident advantage, also where a siiburban service by existing railways may be devel- oped. 1146 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.— RETURNED S0LDIER8 3. That where possible the land be acquired near urban centres where (a) a ready market may be found for surplus garden and other products; (&) employment if neces- sary may be obtained by the otherwise unoccupied members of the community; (c) trade training may be had for those desiring to engage in industrial pursuits; (d) an increasing land value may compensate for temporary initial losses; (e) the development of local industries may naturally be looked for; (/) culture under glass gives promise of satisfactory profit. 4 That allotments be made of varying sizes to meet the different requirements. 5. That substantial but inexpensive houses be constructed. A considerable sav- ing may be made by careful planning, and standardization of designs. 6. That the developments be planned with a view to securing social amenities and normal rural activities — a nucleus around which the varied activities of industrial life will naturally develop. 7. That some form of co-operative marketing be developed under Government guidance, but without financial assistance. 8. That the dwelling houses and allotments of land be leased upon terms which will provide an adequate (but as low as ix)ssible) return upon the investment. 9. That leases be granted to others than pensioners upon similar terms — or slightly higher, if thought desirable. 10. That provision be made for leases as low as $15 per month, to include dwel- ling house and small garden allotment. It is well known that the cultivation of even a small vegetable garden adds greatly to the available food supply. Wisely planned as to its use and carefully cultivated one-quarter of an acre will produce more than all the root crops and small fruits required annually for a family of four. By marketing direct to consumers, surplus products will bring highest market prices. Standards of quality would naturally be provided for by those directly responsible for marketing. These plans call for a minimum of capital investment, and promise a satisfactory economic return for the money employed. They have the added advantage that such investment forms an asset of permanent and realizable value. It is believed further that these measures will meet the needs and wishes of a considerable and important body of pensioners. It is respectfully requested that the Toronto Branch of the Canadian Maniifac- turers' Association, having a knowledge of existing conditions, and having con- sidered the problem presented, endorse the recommendations made to the Dominion Government. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. House of Commons, Room 301, Ottawa, May 30, 1917. The Committee met at 10 o'clock a.m., the chairman. Sir Herbert Ames, presiding. Members present : Sir Herbert Ames, chairman ; Mr. R. B. Bennett, Hon. Charles Marcil, Hon. F. B. McCurdy, Mr. W. S. INfiddlebro, Hon. Charles Murphy, Mr. Duncan Ross and Mr. Donald Sutherland. Mr. Charles Walter Peterson, called, sworn and examined: — By the Chairman: Q. What is your name and what position do you occupy? — A. Charles Walter Peterson, secretary National Service Board of Canada. Q. Will you tell us what steps are being taken by the National Service, both overseas and in Canada, with a view to making preparations for demobilization? — A. A card was issued and sent to the Canadian overseas forces through the High Com- missioner's office. I have a copy of the card here and it reads as follows: — 1147 1148 SPECIAL COMMITTEE~C P I? r.r. ''■'^■''-^ETUnNED SOLDIERS RECEFTION, TREATMENT AXD RE-EDUCATION 1149 1150 SPECIAL OOMMITTEE-C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS The intention is to have such cards filled in by the men at the front: that is, those that are there now and those that are in England, and then to have subsequent contingents fill these cards in on the way over. Q. What steps are being taken to distribute them on the other side? — A. It is being done through the office of the Overseas Minister of Militia and Defence. Q. And how soon do you expect they will be filled out and returned? — A, We have no definite information on that point, but I should think within a couple of months or so. Q. Have you indicated any desire in that respect? — A. Yes, we asked to have the promptest possible action taken. Q. Are the cards to be returned here to Ottawa? — A. Yes. Q. How do you propose to classify them after you get them back? — A. The intention was to divide them up according to military districts. By Mr. Bennett: Q. By provinces, not military districts? — A. Provinces, yes, and then to compile the information, ascertaining how many men there are that have positions to go back to, those that are anxious to go into agricultural life, and so forth. By the Chairman: Q. In whose hands will the custodianship of those cards rest?— A. The National Service Board, for the time being, and then I expect the intention is to turn them over to whatever body was established afterwards to handle demobilization. Q. Do you feel that the information once obtained overseas on these cards will be of a sufficient permanent character, or would this have to "be done again? — A. 1 should think this information would be practically just as good two years from now as it is to-day. Q. You think the soldiers' preference with regard to occupation will not change ? — A. Not to any material extent. Q. Have you anything further to say about that? — A. No, sir, we have not worked out any definite scheme yet. After the cards come back, and we have an opportunity of going over some thousands of them, we will be in a better position to say just how we can compile the most useful information from the returns. Q. Do you intend to supply the provinces with a duplicate of that information? — A. The intention was to supply the provinces with the information, providing there is provincial organization for handling them. Q. Do you mean the provincial government, or the provincial organization finding employment for returned soldiers? — A. Whatever body might be established to deal with that. Q. What information is the National Service Commission at present gathering that will be of service later on, as showing where employment can be secured in Canada on demobilization? — A. We started in to obtain an occupational survey of Canada. I submit copies of the forms. Q. A form for male employees and a form for women employees; that is what you have given me here? — A. I also submit the following covering letter. Q. Who is it addressed to ? — A. To the person who is supposed to make the returns. Q. He would be an employer of labour? — A. Yes. The letter reads as follows : — National Service, Canada, Ottawa, February 15, 1917. Office of the Director-Gteneral. Dear Sir, — The Order in Council creating the Board of National Service imposed upon it the duty of obtaining necessary information respecting con- ditions of industry and employment throughout Canada. [Mr. Charles "W. Peterson.] 1151 o P! ! 3 o <« O (y --^ OJ O o c tn £ O > S O^ 0)^ bflg ^ -M 03 Ti TO p .-J Ji OJ I s s e V- ai:^^ « « o A-C. c-> _ O a -d - - c o <^ ^ rt-O en ^ y >^ T ^ 03 Q S to ij j> c« <^ JU o ■ti 2 id - cr G ^ 3 o r« 5c_i rj . 'p S i^-^- c^ . V- ■- .;5.S 4J ^ g s ^ g c j:; ^ p. ? o cj 7- ^ tfl o o ^ >^ r5 o rt o o c 0) o rt c °'y)vc (uH<5 £0^ w^ is o 2 C 4-. (/I g o ^ ^ o.;£ b o S .5 ;:i o u 5 GJ O t-i •>,-<-> 73 Ci -t; ^ <^ C ^ \n ?5 - a 'xrz £ ^^ o o o •^ a- ^ ^^ t.C S o V- . c3 is c3 c'*3 o ^ s^ ►- r3 'i O d rt ::! .^ .- c o'^ S g £ § ^:H^ C - K O ^ /e pro- sve ask rewith. 5 know omptly nstruc- iner in ational iresent- mation others to give welfare scuracy •ns. on. ETT. 1 which iswered. • memo- [Mr. Charles W. Peterson.] 1150 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS The intention is to have such cards filled in by the men at the front: that is, those that are there now and those that are in England, and then to have subsequent contingents fill these cards in on the way over. Q. What steps are being taken to distribute them on the other side? — A. It is being done through the ofiice of the Overseas Minister of Militia and Defence. Q. And how soon do you expect they will be filled out and returned?— A. We have no definite information on that point, but I should think within a couple of months or so. Q. Have you indicated any desire in that respect? — A. Yes, we asked to have the promptest possible action taken. Q. Are the cards to be returned here to Ottawa? — A. Yes. Q. How do you propose to classify them after you get them back? — A. The intention was to divide them up according to military districts. By Mr. Bennett: Q. By provinces, not military districts? — A. Provinces, yes, and then to compile the information, ascertaining how many men there are that have positions to go back to, those that are anxious to go into agricultural life, and so forth. By the Chairman: Q. In whose hands will the custodianship of those cards rest? — A. The National Service Board, for the time being, and then I expect the intention is to turn them over to whatever body was established afterwards to handle demobilization. Q. Do you feel that the information once obtained overseas on these cards will be of a sufficient permanent character, or would this have to "be done again? — A. 1 should think this information would be practically just as good two years from now as it is to-day. Q. You think the soldiers' preference with regard to occupation will not change ? — A. Not to any material extent. Q. Have you anything further to say about that ? — A. No, sir, we have not worked out any definite scheme yet. After the cards come back, and we have an opportunity of going over some thousands of them, we will be in a better position to say just how we can compile the most useful information from the returns. Q. Do you intend to supply the provinces with a duplicate of that information? — A. The intention was to supply the provinces with the information, providing there is provincial organization for handling them. Q. Do you mean the provincial government, or the provincial organization finding employment for returned soldiers? — A. Whatever body might be established to deal with that. Q. What information is the National Service Commission at present gathering that will be of service later on, as showing where employment can be secured in Canada on demobilization? — A. We started in to obtain an occupational survey of Canada. I submit copies of the forms. Q. A form for male employees and a form for women employees; that is what you have given me here? — A. I also submit the following covering letter. Q. Who is it addressed to ? — A. To the person who is supposed to make the returns. Q. He would be an employer of labour? — A. Yes. The letter reads as follows : — National Service, Canada, Ottawa, February 15, 1917. Office of the Director-General. Dear Sir, — The Order in Council creating the Board of National Service imposed upon it the duty of obtaining necessary information respecting con- ditions of industry and employment throughout Canada. [Mr. Charles W. Peterson.] 00 O O p^ H g o Q < O 1^ "g t^^ fe 6^'$ ^l^^^l^ Jg Plll-Sjll "1--8g|-slM . 4) 3 ?i -P J , -u h "^ ^^-^|g1^^ = ^ ojr.£ ° ^-imt " in nJ-n 3-- .2 O ! -.3 o-W cd !5.b = > o t £ ■« £ p.. S ^- fc * C « O (o'S P ■^■v «3- g^ '^ O O ^ M III •5 afs sg 5 ^ o u ^j^ ii g fe e.S v- ^ g ■ SlmCL, ° "'^ g S '^ 0) c c! — rt -•a g O O gjj ^•S g'-§ u.oO S ?; rt Si S < S S-3g|||-> .fi Ifl - " ^ £ cfi Si j3 <^ w ■£ " c c o s « 2Ji, p-stiu::£ 3^B g.s:e.sg^ mill -5 -S fc ^ 6 "i . 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E E § ° g 60-5 SJ" 2'5| u 3 S S-2-g a.£ 3 ■ < ^ gig Hi "^ 3 S 3 M a ^' CO K c ± III FORM FOR MALE EMPLOYEES CANADA Industry. I certify that the information contained in this schedule is complete and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. N AT 1 N A l_ ^^^^^g, S E R V 1 C E CON Fi DFKI Tl Al ' Date PLEASE FILL IN EACH BLANK CAREFULLY. (SEE ALSO OTHER SIDE). Address Value of output in average normal year $ ■ 2 ' Your closnt :2::^i:z:^, „.r-., ^^HS^^i^r^ '^i^^v^'S^ Number of Do yoo 12 e.ch dm h«ve Numbelmen' lliuT m.>. cmolovcc. mcludi«! office «.«. 1 1 2 ItZl't L<.5.of .»»h.. '"i-x-r rCo";"- It" 1 """' °°'""-"'" 1 i-hc... |°"'-« One Arm One Eye He.rin.. ^ „my ? n,o„.h., 1 „'„''„',1, Ibewu? , inencSd^.r?" Pletse .Mwet- No, All or Parti 1 .„ 1 • 28277— p. 1161a 1 RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1151 For the purpose of enabling this duty to be effectively discharged, we pro- pose to make an occupational survey, and enclose blank forms, which we ask you to promptly complete and return in the addressed envelope herewith. Should the schedules enclosed not contain sufficient space, please let us know at once how many additional forms you require and they will be promptly forwarded. I particularly direct your attention to the printed Memorandum of Instruc- tions on the reverse side of the forms. This explains in detail the maimer in which it is desired the required information should be given. I need scarcely point out to you that the inquiry is being made for National purposes only and is specially designed to enable both after-the-war and present- day problems to be dealt with intelligently and efficiently. The information furnished will be considered strictly private and confidential. While many of these questions can be answered from your records, others involve the exercise of your judgment, and you are earnestly requested to give us the benefit of your experience and considered opinion, as the future welfare of our bravest and best citizens depends to no small extent upon the accuracy of any forecast which may now be made of Canadian business conditions. Thanking you in anticipation of your prompt and courteous attention. Believe me. Yours faithfully, E. B. BENNETT. On the back of these forms will be found a memorandum of instructions in which I have explained the precise manner in which we desire to have each question answered. The CHAiRNfAN: At this point in your evidence you had better put in the memo- randum of instructions. Witness filed memorandum as follows: — [Mr. Charles W. Peterson.] 1152 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—REIURNED SOLDIERS The Witness : Shall I read those questions that deal particularly with demobiliza- tion, sir? The Chairman : It will all go into the record, but you may indicate to us the ones you think are the most pertinent. I should not suppose the form for female employees would have any value in connection with demobilization. The Witness : There is one form for males and another for females. In question 8 we ask : " Would the following physical defects interfere with employment in your establishment: loss of one leg, loss of one arm, loss of one eye, defective hearing." The question 10 asks for : " niimber of women workers now employed in each class where men were employed before the war." Then question 11 : " Do you expect to substitute returned soldiers for present women workers after the war ? If so, how many in each class ?" I would like to explain the scope of the mailing list. We obtained from the Census Bureau of the Department of Agi-iculture the mailing list which had been compiled for the purpose of making a survey of Canadian industry. That mailing list included the operations of hand trades, as well as establishments conducted under the factory system. We added to that, mining, transportation, banking, insurance, cartage and transfer and express company business. Our intention was to have a mailing list of all the employers in Canada with the exception of the following: retailers, brokers, agriculture, profes- sions, and the smaller employers that would only employ three or four persons. This form was mailed to all those, and I think it substantially takes in all employers in Canada. By the Chairman: Q. Do you make any attempt then to deal with the question or agriculture? — A. It would be perfectly impossible to get any information that would be worth while at this time. When the time comes, fair estimates, I think, could be made by the various Provincial Departments of Agriculture throughout Canada. In regard to the retailers the intention was to deal with the Dominion Retailers' Association. They promised us that when the time came they would obtain for us very quickly any information we wanted regarding the employment situation. In that way we should have a reasonably complete list of all the employers in Canada. The professions are not generally, of course, employers. Q. Is it your expectation that this work of replacement will be carried on by provincial organizations, or that your Service may be called upon to do it? — A. The question of organization, sir, has not been considered. I should say the reasonable system would be for the Provinces to look after the distribution and for the Dominion to supply the information needed, giving a list of the men who had to be provided for, and so forth. Q. For the sake of uniformity, you are getting the data that will enable the provincial organizations to do this work, and in ease of their failing to do it you have the data enabling it to be done through other means? — A. Yes, sir. Q. In order that information of this character might be full and complete, how frequently would an industrial census have to be taken in Canada, in your judgment? — A. I think the information we are asking for now would be practically just as fresh a year from now as it is to-day; but no doubt at the last moment it might be desirable to send out a simple form of questionnaire to keep certain parts of this information up to date, and our expectation would be by that time to have a very complete mailing list of all employers so that it could be quickly and expeditiously done. Q. So that in view of a final collaboration of material you are perfecting your mailing list? — A. Yes, sir. Q. To what extent have the people to whom you have sent these questionnaires answered, and answered carefully ?— A. The replies that we have received are most intelligently prepared. So far we have received, I should say, about 50 per cent of the eifective total, which is very satisfactory. [Mr. Charles W. Peterson.] RECEPTIOX, TREATMENT AXD RE-EDUCATION 1153 Q. Have you a follow-up system? — A. I am now checking up the mailing list, which is a somewhat cumbersome process. As soon as that is completed we will send out a follow-up letter and endeavour to got all the returns in, but there are a surpris- ing number of men who have gone out of business since the war started or engaged in other occupations. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Is it intended before the font-lubiun of the war to get a final revision of all the industries in Canada in sufficient time to effect replacement? — A. With a complete mailing list that can be very quickly done. As only a small number of these question- naires would have to be brought up to date, that would be a very simple matter once we have the mailing list, which is the basis of the whole business. Q. A supplementary list? — A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Bennett: Q. In addition to that, it was intended that the provincial establishments should supplement this information, and from time to time bring it up to date? — A. Yes, sir. Q. There is another thing : in addition to sending out these cards to men who have enlisted, and these forms to industrial establishments, you have also had communica- tion with two other bodies, Mr. Peterson, the boards of trade of Canada and the labour unions? — A. Yes, sir. Mr. Benxett: Please tell the Committee what has been done in that regard? Mr. Ross : I was going to ask a question along the same lines and you can answer it at the same time. You spoke a moment ago about the provincial authorities taking in hand largely the work of distribution of these soldiers. Have you approached them on the subject? The Witness: We have instructed the Directors of National Service for the various military districts to obtain from the provincial authorities a complete record of what they have done up to date, what machinery they propose to provide, in fact, all tlie information bearing on the subject of demobilization and the handling of returned soldiers. We are getting information now on that point. Q. I did not exactly mean that. I imagine that some question may be raised by the Provincial Governments as to this being a federal matter, and they might not care to go to the expense of co-operating with you in this matter if any expense were g«ing to lie entailed. I was wondering if they have been approached. Mr. Bennett : The fact is that every province has an organization. Mr. Eoss: I know that. Mr. Bennett: All that is being dune is to work tlirough that organization, if possible, co-ordinating our efforts, such as they are, with theirs to enable this informa- tion to be as full as possible^ and to ask them if they cared to undertake responsibility when the time comes to place the soldiers from that jprovince back into civil employ- ment. Is not tliat as far as the matter has gone Mr. Peterson ? The Witness: The intention was to get a complete statement first from each province of what they had done, and then, I imderstand, it was Mr. Bennett's intention to visit the various provincial authorities, discuss the matter with them, and arrange effective organization. I am turning in the letter we sent to the Directors of National Service asking them to obtain this information. '" ("opy." Ottawa, February 22, 1917. Dear Sir, — As you are aware, it was resolved at the recent Board meeting that National Service should undertake to formulate plans concerning demobilization and the absorption into civil life of our overseas forces. 28277—73 [Mr. Charles W. Peterson.] 1154 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Survey work, as to opportunities for employment in this connection, has already been undertaken by various provincial organizations. In the province of Alberta, Dr. James C. Miller, Director of Technical Education, is at pre- sent engaged on an industrial and commercial survey of that province. I have obtained from him a set of the forms vphich he is issuing, and attach hereto a synopsis indicating the character and scope of his work. It is necessary that we should have fvill information as to what is being done, or proposed to be done, in all the other provinces, in the same dir.cction Will you therefore please consult the authorities in your province and such organizations as the provincial branch of the Military Hospitals Commission, and secure complete details, copies of forms, etc., in regard to their plans for dealing with the problem of employment for returned soldiers. The co-ordination of all such efforts is essential to the proper solution of this vital question. I feel sure that those concerned will give every assistance to any inquiries or suggestions which you may make, and should be glad to have your report when you have completed the investigation for your province. Yours truly, CIIAS. W. PETERSON, Secretary. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Not knowing what you had done, we have a recommendation in our report, which I will read: (Reads) " The problem of providing employment for the whole forces upon demobilization and returning them to civil life, not being one which has been permanently assumed by the various provinces, we would in the meantime recommend with a view of preparing for their return, that a complete record should be made forthwith of the previous history and occupation of every sol- dier on active service, and his present capacity, his intention and wishes with regard to his future occupation upon his return to civil life, so that we shall know in advance the requirements with regard to their employment. Your committee also recommend that a survey of all positions and occupa- tions available and open in Canada to returned soldiers upon demobilization be made, and that a classification be made so that we may know exactly how many returned soldiers will dovetail into the available positions." — A. I think that is substantially being done, sir, as far as it can be done at this time. Q. Then no recommendation along these lines from this committee is necessary? — A. I should hardly think so. Q. This matter is being dealt with by the National Service Commission ?^A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. It is distinctly understood that the National Service Commission -have under- taken to obtain the information? — A. That is as far as we have gone. Q. And the Commission is actually now doing that? — A. Yes. Mr. Bennett: The communications to the boards of trade should also be put in. The Chairman: You might read them, Mr. Peterson. The Witness : We obtained a complete list of the incorporated boards of trade in Canada, and tlie following letter was addressed to the secretary of each, on tbo 5th of March: (reads) — [Mr. Charles W. Peterson.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1155 Ottawa, March 5, 1917. The Secretary, Board of Trade. Dear Sir, — While the great struggle is still raging unabated, it is evident to all thinking men, that no time .should be lost in making intelligent prepara- tion for the inevitable disorganization that will accompany the demobilization of the troops now overseas. The responsibility for this preparation has been placed, by the Government of Canada, upon the National Service Board. The Board is directed to obtain data, submit recommendations and formulate definite, detailed plans for carrying out the task of demobilizing the Canadian Overseas Forces, when the time comes, and providing for their absorption into civil life. At the end of the war, Canada will find herself face to face with the prob- lem of rotuniing into business and industrial life some half million men at present under arms. An enormous number of men and women, now employed in the manufacture of munitions and other war supplies, will also be compelled to change their occupations and there is also likely to be a problem of some magnitude to be solved in finding employment for an army of women now taking the places of men overseas who will, it is hoped, in most cases be a Horded an opportunity to return to their former employment. Apart from these problems that we know about and we trust will be able to provide for, the opinion is held by many in a position to form intelligenr conclusions, that a large immigration may be expected from Creat Britain and el^sewhere, upon the declaration of peace. Also, thatthis infi'i.x will be com- po:=ed largely of people with small means who will be looking for immediate employment although they may intend ultimately settling on the land. In order to enable this Board to form an estimate as to the labour and employment situation likely to prevail within a short period after the war, an extensive "Occupational Survey" covering the whole of Canada, is now being made. I attach copies of the forms used in which have been incorporated certain questions dealing with the probable *'after-the-war" situation. It i.s, of course, fully realized that at best the statistical conclusions that may be thus arrived at are mere estimates. It is, however, absolutely clear that such forecasts must be made by some one. Under tlie circumstances, our effort will be to make these estimates as nearly correct as possible, so that the problem facing the Government and the people of Canada may be forecasted as intel- ligently as possible. In conjunction with this occupational inquiry, a questionnaire will shortly be sent to the troops overseas. Without going into detail, I may say, that the object of the latter inquiry' will be to obtain essential -facts bearing on the qualifications of each member of the Overseas Forces in regard to employment, whether he has a situation awaiting his return, the number of dependents, whether he desires to engage in agricultural life, etc. With the information from these two sources available, the Board will be able to draw certain conclusions as to the extent of the problems before us, so far, at least, as the returned soldier is affected by the same. I am now instructed by the Director General and the National Service Board to invite the co-operation of your Board of Trade in solving the task before us. It is felt that the situation is worthy of the combined effort of the best minds in Canada «nd that so many local problems will arise in dealing with the matter, that it is imperative these must be intelligently considered by local bodies in order that our general scheme may be prepared with a view to their solution. [Mr. Charles W. Peterson.] 28277— 73i 1156 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS I am to ask you kindly to appoint a small committee, preferably one containing representatives of industrial, financial, labour, commercial and civil bodies, with instructions to consider the question in all its phases and to submit a report to your Board embodying- such suggestions and recommenda- tions as it may see fit, for transmission to the National Service Board when completed. It is hoped that prompt action in this matter on the part of all the boards of trade in Canada will lead to valuable contributions to National Ser- vice and will enable my Board to approach its task fortified with the best inform- ation available on the subject. Thanking you in anticipation for your hearty co-operation and valuable assistance in this matter, I remain. Yours faithfully, OHAS. W. PETERSON, Secretary. Considerable correspondence emanated from this letter, and as it was apparent that these Boards rather misunderstood the object we had in view. The following letter was sent yesterday, dated May 31. (Reads) : File No. 274. • Office of the Director General, Ottawa, May 31, 1917. The Secretary, Board of Trade, Dear Sir, — With further reference to my letter to you of the 5th March asking your Board to appoint a committee to consider the many problems likely to arise in connection with the demobilization of the Overseas Forces after the end of the war and to submit to the National Service Board useful suggestions and recommendations in the matter, in order to facilitate the drawing up by that body of tentative plans for the consideration of the Government of Canada. I beg to state, that I have recently been asked by a great many Boards of Trade to give some indication of the special points upon which the National Service Board seeks guidance. Under the circumstances, I have thought it well to quote for the information of your special committee the following extract from a letter I have just sent to an Eastern Board, which might be found useful : — " What system should be followed in " mustering out " the Overseas Forces? Should it be done as fast as the troops arrive in Canada, or should those who have occupations awaiting them be mustered out first and the remainder kept under arms and mustered out as employment is found for them, or should they be dismissed from the service at once with advance pay to enable them to look for employment independently? Should great public works be started when demobilization times comes, so as to absorb the greatest possible amount of labour and thus render general employment available for returned soldiers as well as for those who will be displaced by soldiers returning to their previous employment? Can you suggest an efficient system of employment bureaux or similar organizations to deal efficiently, expeditiously and economically with the whole subject? Each Province will probably have to organize according to its own peculiar problem in this respect. How should married men or men with families be handled, who have no immediate employment in sight? These are merely a few of the problems confronting the Government on demobilization, and I refer to them simply to give you a line on the sort of information we seek. It is felt that the whole question is surrounded with difficulties, and that the best minds in Canada are needed to assist us in out- lining plans that will provide machinery to deal reasonably eflFectively, at least, [Mr. Charles W. Peterson.] I RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1157 with the first shock of demobilization, having due regard to economy as well as efficiency. It is, of course, impossible to forecast exactly what conditions may prevail when peace comes, but it is equally certain, that the better we are pre- pared to meet the problem of absorbing an enormous number of men into civil life within a comparatively short time, the less disorganization and suflfering will result. I shall look forward" with interest to the report of your Committee." Yours faithfully, CIIAS. W. PETERSON, Secretary, till the Chairman: Q. Have you considered, Mr. Peterson, in sending out that memo., the suggestion that married men with families, who are at present drawing separation allowance, assigned pay, and Patriotic Fund money should be the first to be returned with a view of securing permanent positions for those men who are not mobile, whose family connection and home surroundings render it practically imperative that they should find employment in the city of origin, leaving the men without dependents, the more tluid population, to be sent, if necessary, from one part of Canada to the other? — A. Officially, we have not given the slightest consideration to the matter, because we have been bending all our efforts to gathering and compiling information, after which we had planned to make an exhaustive study of the whole subject, when this important phase of the problem would naturally receive the most careful consideration. The CiiAiuMAN : But I see you have, in that letter, referred to what classes of men should go back first. The Witness: We have just asked their opinion on those jwints merely as a way of indicating some of the problems we would expect these committees to submit suggestions upon. By the Chairman: Q. I would like to have you bring the evidence of the fact as it would be most economical and advantageous, in many ways, that the men who are drawing separa- tion allowance, and who cost the Government more than the single men, and who are also in receipt of Patriotic Fund money be the first to be looked after. — A. Absolutely, there is no question about that. Mr. Bennett: The idea is to get this information and from that, by our owi\ observation and experience, to make some recommendation that will be useful. The Witness: As a matter of fact, sir, the members of the Board have not had occasion to consult upon these questions as yet. Our effort so far has been confined entirely to gathering information at headquarters for future use. Bij Mr. Bennett: Q. You might indicate to the Committee the character of the information you have sought from organized labour throughout Canada. — A. We prepared a list of representatives for each province from each branch of organized labour; it was quite a large imdertaking, and this letter was sent to them on April 10 (reads) : — Ottawa, April 10, 1917 Dear Sir, — As you may have noticed through press references, the National Service Board has been entrusted by the Government with the task of formu- lating and submitting plans for the demobilization of the Canadian Overseas Forces upon the declaration of peace. To do so intelligently, a great deal of information must necessarily be gathered, compiled and considered. ^ry board has now directed me to ascertain what period or periods of the calendar year, have in the past proven to be most favourable from an employment [Mr. Charles W. Peterson.] 1158 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS point of view in each Province in Canada. Also what period or periods have, in your experience, e:enerally witnessed the greatest volume of unemployment in your trade in each Province. In other words, if some hundreds or thousands of men of that trade were to be turned loose in each Province in Canada, about when would be the most favourable and when the least favourable time, having regard, of course, to all the conditions prevailing in each Province affecting 5^our trade? You will readily see, that information on this point might easily have considerable bearing on any general demobilization plan. Obviously, those belonging to your trade should not, if it can possibly be avoided, be mustered out from service in the midst of the period when the demand for that class of skilled labour is at its lowest ebb. On the other hand, it would be found dis- tinctly advantageous, if it could be so arranged that men of your trade should be mustered out at a time when employment in your line is most plentiful. The systematic absorption into civil life of the skilled workers now serving with the Overseas Forces, without creating disorganization, is a problem of paramount importance, particularly owing to the fact that these classes of workers constitute a very large percentage qi the whole. In the circumstances, I feel that yovi will be glad to give vis the benefit of your very best thought and information, so as to enable us to help members of your trade now overseas and also, as far as we are able to do, to protect the interests of those who will be working at your trade by the time the war ends and demobilization problems face us. I enclose a return envelope. No postage is requred for communications with the office. Yours faithfully, (Sgd.) CHAS. W. PETERSON, Secretari/. By Mr. Middlelro: Q. Will it be too much trouble for you to prepare for me a summary of what you have been doing along the lines which I asked you ? — A. You want it just in memor- andum form? Q. Yes.— A. I will do so. Witness discharged. Major C. M. Ingall, recalled. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. What is your position? — A. I belong to the Branch of the Accountant and Paymaster General, and I am general auditor and chief inspector of accounts and records for the Expeditionary Force in Canada. Q. You are at present engaged in that work? — A. I am directing that division, but I am actively employed in the Separation Allowance and Assigned Pay Division. Hon. Mr. McClrdy: In giving your evidence you might avoid repetition of anything you said the other day. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. IIow long have you been in charge of that branch? — A. I took over the charge of the Separation Allowance Branch on the 26th March, 1917. Q. There has been some criticism here in connection with that branch. What do you say as to the position in which that Branch now is? [Major C. M. Ingall.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1159 By Mr. Koss: Q. Before you go into that you might tell us how many people are employed there ou that staff? — A. Do you want the male and female, or just the total? By Mr. Tkoss (Middlesex) : Q. Whatever classification you have? — A. 13 military employees, 494 males, and 131 females, making a total in all of 638. Q. That is in the pay and separation allowance branch? — A. Separation allowance and assigned pay. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Do you consider that branch as now in a satisfactory state, or have you any suggestions to make ? — A. I believe the systems at present in use are better than at any time since the organization of the division, and this is constantly improving owing to the fact that we have been able to secure the services of some experienced officers who have had, as well as business experience, the benefit of service at the front, and this is extremely useful to us there in that they can apply their military and civil knowledge to the conduct of our business. By Hon. Mr. McCurdyf Q. Why do you say it is necessary for them to have military experience to do effective work? — A. Because with the experience that they have had they know and are fully aware of the difficulties that are experienced at the front in reporting the casualties, and they are able to advise the large staffs that they have control of, and keep general watch to prevent over-payments and that sort of thing through having this knowledge. By the Chairman: Q. You might tell us a little about the difficulties of conducting this separation allowance and assigned pay department, so that we can get some idea of the situation? —A. Yes, I will. By Mr. Loss (Middlesex) : Q. Could you tell us, leading up to that, how many soldiers, widows or dependents are getting assigned pay and how many separation allowances, and say how many people you are dealing with? — A. Yes I can give you those figures. By the Chairman: Q. The statement you have before you is up to what date? — A. This is up to the 30th April. I could give a better idea of the whole thing by going back to 1916, and show the figures we had leading up to this. The assigned pay accounts in force on the 31st December, 1916, were 148,049. The assigned pay accounts in force 30th April, 1917, were approximately 170,000, an increase for the four months ending 30th April of approximately 22,000. Q. Approximately one-half the men make an assignment of pay? — A. Yes. By Mr. Bennett: Q. They have to ? — A. Yes. Where separation allowance is paid to the dependents of soldiers, through an Order in Council passed several months ago, a compulsory assignment is put into effect against the «soldier. By the Chairman: Q. Besides that, there are a number of voluntary assignments where no separation allowance is paid? — A. That is so. Q. So that at least one-half of the soldiers have a double ac<;ount? — A. Yes. Q. And one-third of them a triple account? — A. Yes. [Major C. M. Ingall.] 1160 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Bji Mr. Sutherland: Q. Where a soldier does not assign his pay, is there any part of his pay kept back and held for himself ?— A. Yes, that is called deferred pay. When a soldier goes to Trance he is only allowed to draw one franc a day. The rest is deferred until such time as he is discharged and is paid him in a lump sum, and it bears interest. Q. Supposing a private gets promoted and qualifies for a commission, and it renders it necessary for him to have a little more money at his disposal, would you pay him more money in that case ? — A. In stating that the balance was not paid, that is as long as he is in the ranks, but when he receives his commission his account is balanced up to date, and as an officer his account is kept for him at the Bank o^ Montreal, or at Cox & Co., bankers. By the Chairman: Q. In his new capacity? — A. Yes. If the number of accounts should continue to increase in the same ratio, at the end of the year 1917 it will mean some 2,205,588 cheques will have to be issued on account of assigned pay for the year 1917. That is allowing for the increase as averaged for the first four months of this year. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex) : Q. You are referring to assigned pay? — A. Separation allowance and assigned l^ay. I understand you want some of the troubles next. By the Chairman: Q. We would like to hear of some of your principal difficulties? — A. I will give them. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. What about your correspondence? How many letters do you receive? — A. With reference to correspondence the number of correspondence files handled daily in the central registry at the end of 1916 was only 1,900 files. This increased as of 30th April, 1917, to approximately 2,400 files per day, anywhere from 300 to 600 new files are created each day, and it is impossible to foretell the number of files which will be handled daily at the end of 1917. We cannot even give an estimate of them. 'The average number of letters handled each day to December, 1916, was between 900 and 1,000. This had increased as of the 30th April, 1917. to approximately from 1,600 to 1,800 per day. The greatest number of letters issued in one day was 2,053. Q. Letters going out? — A. Yes, outgoing. Now, in order to deal efficiently with the business of the branch, we have some of the best mechanical equipment we could get put in there, to try and deal with this large volume of business. The mechanical equipment in the branch at present consists of some 35 typewriters. 6 adding machines, 46 cheque writing machines, 8 scriptographs, which is a rapid cheque signing contri- vance. We have 2 mimeographs, 1 electrical and the other a hand machine, and as we are unable and it is more expensive to put much of our printing through the Bureau, we are using boys to do this. The machines are not expensive, and are at present on a run of 850,000 forms. The machines are constantly running now from 7 o'clock in the morning till midnight, and we are able to get our forms as we require them. The Bureau, when they put our printing for the Division through, take quite a long 'time to turn it out, and they usually deliver us very large quantities, for which we have no storage. We have absolutely no room to ]nit the stack of necessary stationery away. By Hon. Mr. Murphy: Q. Speaking generally, what are those forms ? — 'A. In order to save correspondence we are endeavouring to put slips in the mail, so as to just have the one letter. It saves the postal people a great deal of trouble, and we put slips in with cheques, telling people the errors that are creeping in, and that they are not letting us know their change of RECEPTWS, TREATMEyr AND RE-EDUCATIOX 1161 address. These are the forms, and in addition to that we are making up a great many forms for the Board of Review in connection with separation allowance. Another one of the difficulties we have had to contend with is that the Assigned Pay and Separation Allowance Branch is, and always has been, severely handicapped for want of space: we grow so rapidly. This trouble has been experienced ever since the inception of the Branch, and the magnitude of the work carried on therein is hard for any one outside to appreciate. Then it is extremely difficult to employ the proper class of labour in this Branch, owing to the fact that the plan is to employ only men over Military age, or those who are physically unfit, or females whose financial position has been prejudiced by their financial support going on active service. In view of all this, we have a restricted constituency to drawn from. Also a certain amount of military knowledge is necessary to men holding responsible positions in this Division. The work in connection with this Division is of a particular nature an ordinary commercial training, whilst of Service, is not sufficient to render employees sufficiently competent to properly carry out the work of this Branch. When they are are not competent I have full authority to discipline, suspend and discharge them. By the Chairman: Q. How many employees have j'ou in your Branch i — A. 638 employees. Q. And in how many places are those employees scattered? — A. They are all in one part of the building, ber cent have not quoted the soldier's name, number and battalion. This is despite the fact that I have prepared a special form and issued this form with each separation allowance and assigned pay cheque every month, showing the payee how to notify change of address. This change of address has to be noted in the assigned pay ledger, on the separation ledger, on the assigned pay card, on the separation allowance card, and the record office have also to be informed. I produce copy of statistics for the year 1916 including the number of employees with details of the work. (For statement see Exhibit 1 oi Appendix herein.) There was one other thing in connection with overpayments. It seems to me. in reading the evidence previously given that the matter of overpayments has been grossly exaggerated. The majority of the overpayments of assigned pay or separa- tion allowance which had been made to the soldiers or their dependents are being recovered in the case where the soldier is still serving by the simple process of charging them up against the soldier's account. They are thus absorbed in a very short time. [Major C. M. Ingall.] 1170 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS These form the great bulk of the overpayments. There is a class of overpayments, however, which cannot be recovered. These consist of overpayments of separation allowance and assigned pay made to dependents of soldiers who have deserted or who have been given thei^ discharge in Canada. In some instances headquarters have not been notified of these desertions and discharges, with the result that the separation allowance and assigned pay have been continued for some months to the dependents before it has been discovered that the soldier is no longer on the strength of the force. There is another class of overpayment, mainly where a soldier has been overpaid for some reason, either in respect of separation allowance, assigned pay, or has been allowed to overdraw his account. The soldier has been killed or has died, and in such cases it is difficult to recover the overpayment. These cases however, are not common, and the amount involved is hardly worthy of consideration. In many of these cases we have taken into -consideration the fact that the woman has accepted the money in good faith, and if it is going to work any hardship, the husband having been killed, we must put it up to the Board of Review to consider whether we should take any further action or not. Of course, as the regulations stand to-day, we have to ask for a refund but we do not press for it in cases where it works hardship and the woman is poor. There is still a third class of overpayments, and that is when the soldier has been returned to Canada, discharged as medically unfit, and overpayment has been made in assigned pay or separation allowance. The great bulk of these overpayments will also be recovered. They are not very numerous, however, and steps are being taken to recover what there are from the three months' pay and allowances to be issued to the soldiers after discharge from overseas service. These will be recovered during the next three months. In the statements of overpayments made up recently there has been included as overpayments, separation allowance issued to the wife for the month in which the soldier arrived home. There are very many cases of these, and they should not be considered as overpayments, it being decided recently, by ruling of the Paymaster General, that the wife is entitled to separation allowance for the full month in which the soldier returns. It is difficult at present to give any exact figures. These, how- ever, will be obtainable just as soon as the work of comparing the lists of separation allowance and assigned pay in the Ottawa office, with those in the London office is completed. This work will be completed in the course of a few weeks, or as soon as the officer in charge can return to London and finish up his checking there. By this checking all accounts which should not be on the ledgers will be closed out and a state- ment can be made up of just what overpayments have been made. It is very doubtful if the total amount will exceed $250,000. You know that in all hundreds of millions of dollars in pay which have been issued. The percentage will probably be less than one-tenth of one per cent of the total pay issued. Do you know that the British Government wrote oif £1,000,000 overpayments after the South Africa war. Our force now is much greater than theirs was then. By Mr. Boss: Q. When are these cheques for separation allowance and assigned pay sent out? — A. We commence sending out on the morning of the IHth so as not to block the city post office. We mail 40,000 the first day, and the balance of the quarter of the million as fast as the post office can handle them. Q. So that if a man is honourably discharged on tlie 20th of the month and his cheque had gone out on the 15th, his wife gets the separation allowance for the whole month. And in the past in such cases, you have asked for a refund, that would be previous to this recent ruling? — A. Previous to that ruling we would notify the wife that the cian had been discharged on the 20th, and would ask a refund for the 10 or 11 days. That caused a great deal of correspondence and hard feeling. [Major C. M. Inerall.! RECEPTION. TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1171 By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Take the ease of a mau killed at the front, on say, the 15th April. How long would it be before his case is settled? — A. Before the estate is settled? Q. Yes? — A. Six months. Q. And how is the widow of that man to exist during that period? — A. If he is the only and sole support and there is a pension to be paid on that account, we con- tinue to,i)ay right up to the time that the Pensions Board notifies us that the pension is allowed. Q. Supposing he was the oldest of five or six children and sole support of a mother? — A. Then she becomes eligible for a pension. Q. The only thing she would get is whatever balance is due to him? — A. The assigned pay and the balance due to the soldier. The pay can be adjusted very quickly, but the reason six months is usually fixed as the time necessary to wind up the estate is to allow everything to come in from the field. There are cases where the soldier's things have to be gathered together, they are in dugouts, etc., and they try to settle up everything at th« time instead of increasing the suffering on the part of the widow or the woman by troubling her several times in connection with the matter. Bij Mr. Middlehro: Q. What provisions are there with regard to interest on the unpaid balance? — A. That is now l>eing workened during the year, 1916 114,000 Number of Assigned Pay Accounts, closed in the year, 1916. 21,000 Number of Assignments changed during the year, 1916, on advice from the Chief Paymaster, C.E.F 13,000 Separation Allowance Accounts in force 1st January, 1916 40,258 Separation Allowance Accounts in force, 31st Dec, 1916. . 83,469 Separation Allowance Accounts closed during the year, 1910 —about 16,000 Average nurnber of letters handled per diem, in January, 1916 350 to 500 Average number of letters handled per diem, in December, 1916 900 to 1,000 Greatest number of letters received in one day (during December, 1916)— about 2,600 Number of Files now daily handled in Central Registry —about 1,900 Number of Cables and Telegrams handled August, 1916. . 712 Number of Cables and Telegrams handled in December, 1916 1,387 (Prior records for Cables not available.) Number of Employees, 1st January, 191G . .' 240 Number of Employees, 31st December, 1916 504 Number of Employees engaged duing the year 1916 442 The above statistics are compiled from the facts as from 31st December, 1916. With a view of showing the expansion of th(? branch, I give below a short comparison with the figures as at 30th April, 1917. Assigned Pay Accounts in force 31st December, 1916 .... 148,049 Assigned Pay Accounts in force 30th April, 1917, approx- imately 170,000 Increase for four months, ending 30th April, 1917, approx- imately 22,000 If the number of accounts should continue to increase at the same ratio up to the end of the year 1917, it will mean that some 2,205,588 cheques will have to be issued on account of Assigned Pay for the year 1917. Separation Allowance accounts in force, 31st December, 1916 83,469 Separation Allowance accounts in force 30th April, 1917, approximately 90,000 Increase for four months, ending 30th April, 1917, approx- imately T,000 1183 1184 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS If the number of accounts should continue to increase at the same ratio up to the end of the year, 1917, it will mean that some 1,132,500 cheques will have to be issued on account of Assigned Pay for the year, 1917. This will mean a grand total of 3,338,088 cheques on account of Separation Allow- ance and Assigned Pay will have to be written during the present year to say nothing of Special Remittance cheques, of which there are quite a number, and adjustment cheques due to promotions, etc. The average number of letters handled per day, in December, 1916, was 900 to 1,000. This has increased as at the 30th April, 1917, to approximately 1,600 to 1,800. The greatest number of letters in one day was 2,0.53. Should the correspondence increase at the same ratio, during the remainder of this year, it will mean that in December, 1917, the daily correspondence dispatched will be between 3,000 or 4,000 letters. The number of correspondence files handled daily in the Central Registry at the end of 1916 was 1,900. This has increased as at 30th April, 1917, to approximately 2,400. Anywhere from 300 to 600 new files are created each day and it is impossible to foretell the amount of files which will be handled daily at the end of 1917, but there is not the slightest doubt that it will be at least double or treble the volume at present handled. The mechanical equipment of the branch is all of the most up-to-date description and is as follows: — 35 Typewriters. These typewriters are continually in use from 9.15 a.m. to 5 p.m., and in addition the great majority of them are used on a second shift from 5.00 p.m. to 11.30 p.m. 6 Adding llachines. 46 Cheque writing machines. These machines are worked two shifts daily. 8 Scriptographs. 2 Mimeographs, 1 electrically driven and one driven by hand. These two machines are now running night and day and we have at present some 850,000 forms to be printed by them. This is made up of 48 different kinds of forms which are continually in use by this branch. The number of employees as at the 31st December, 1916, was 504. This total has increased to date, by 134, made up as follows: — 8 officers. 3 warrant officers. 1 S.Q.M.S. 1 Sergeant. Civilian Staff:— 494 Males. 131 Females. Total 638. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1185 EXHIBIT No. 2. REFUND — SEPARATION ALLOWANCE AND ASSIGNED PAY BRANCH. Sample of Complaints. Ottawa, May 18 19lt. 1. Gun7ier Jas. M. Miinro, 65th Battery — Was employed by Government railway, applied for separation allowaiice which was pail), $182. Then the Intercolonial decided to pay her and so separation allowance account showed an over-payment of $182, which is to be deducted from his railway pay and refunded to this branch. 2. Major J. E. Jacques, 51th Battalion — Was struck off strength, May, 1916, separation allowance was continued to February, 1917, overpayment, $450. No information received here till March, 1917. Account at once stopped and refund requested but not yet received. 3. Pte. J. A. iflcNauyhton — Beneficiary died, soldier received cheques and cashed them-:— no notice of her death received till April 1917. The amount will be adjusted through his pay from Casualty Branch. 4. Pte. Geo. Haun — Discharged July 28, 1916, word not received here till February, 1917. Refund requested — not possible to obtain as woman is mentally unbalanced. Attempt being made to recover from husband. 5. Pte. Jos. W. Aitchcson, 161st Battalion — Separation allowance, $200, paid mother March 1, 1916 — December 31, 1916, when another son, Lome (previously unheard of in this office) enlisted showing first son not sole support. This money was refunded when asked for. 6. Pte. John Aiken, 230th Battalion — Separation allowance, $113, paid to born guardian of children and wife — request of children and wife — request for refund sent April 27, 1917, to guardian, no answer yet. 7. Pte. J. Aldred, No. SUOOl, Ufith Battalion — Separation allowance, $20. Paid to mother in April, 1917. After cheque had been mailed this office was notified that father was alive and able-bodied — request for refund asked for April 28, 1917, no reply yet. S. Lieut. M. B. Alexander, 07th Battalion — Amount paid, $50. Paid to end of April by 3M dated in England, March 29, and account paid to end of April, no reply to our request May 4. 9. No. snU-'i, Pte. W. B. Allen, l!,Oth Battalion — Separation allowance, $46. Discharged October 21, 1916, by paymaster's letter Decem- ber 12, 1916. Account paid to end of December, 1916, no reply to request, January 31 (wrongly addressed) or February 15, 1916 (correctly addressed). 10. No. 77905.',, Pte. R. E. Allen, li7lh Battalion — Amount paid, $20. Assignment O.K. on nominal rolls, but after September cheque was issued from here M.D. 6 notified us that man did not proceed overseas. In November, M.D. 6 recovered over-payment. 11. Lieut. Jno. B. Allison, 191st Battalion — Separation allowance, $31. Resigned November 29, 1916, authority P.M.L. January 13, 1917. December cheque had been mailed when notice received. 12. No. 6901S, C.S.M., A^nbrosc, G. J., S6th Battalion — Amount paid, $293.68. Assigned pay paid at $20, soldier deserted. England advised no deductions made, but were able to secure $46.32 from credit balance — as original assigned pay paid was $340 — amount still due, $293.68. No reply to our request of February 23. 13. Major E. W. Archibald, No. S General Hospital — Separation allowance, $150. $192 amount paid. Struck off C. E. F., October 31. 1916, by a letter February 22, 1917, assigned pay, $96, paid for November and December and separation allowance paid for November, December and January. Requests made to bene- ficiary for refunds dated March 8, not answered. 14. Pte. W. H. Evans — Separation allowance, $280 to his mother described as widow — information from Pat- riotic Fund in April, 1917, that she had re-married four years ago. Refund promised — amount in dispute. 15. Pte. J. J. Shaw — Separation allowance, $82, overpaid. He is a returned man — no word received here till January, 1917, when an anonymous letter was received — refund requested and promised. 16. Capt. S. E. Thompson — Amount paid, two months, $140 to his bank account. He was retained in Canada, February 1, refund asked, but not received — will be adjusted through District Paymaster. 17. Captain J. A. McCallwvi — Separation allowance, $63. He resigned February 13, word received here by telegrram April 16, overpaid to March 31. Refund asked for but not yet received. 28277—75 1186 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-G.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS 18. Pte. Reuben Burcy — Separation allowance, $455. Man enlisted 17th Battalion, August 15, 1914, transferred to 90th Battalion October 27, 1915, and duplicate account was opened. Cheques continued on both accounts till February, 1917, then stopped — is being adjusted at $20 per month. No record here of his transfer till March, 1917. 19. Pte. M. H. Argue, No. 255053, A.M.C., T.D. No. 10 — Amount paid, $80. Nominal rolls received here in order with instructions to pay this man $20 assigned pay per month, but when a copy of our rolls were checked up in Eng- land, Chief Paymaster wrote on January 5, 1917, that man did not proceed overseas — assigned pay was paid from October 1, 1916, to end of January, 1917, no answer to our ■ request January 27. 20. Pte, C, H. Armitage, No. 68^625, No. 5 Special Service Company — Separation allowance, overpaid, $55. This office paid separation allowance con- tinuously from date enlisted, November 23, 1916, to February 16, 1917. Paymaster M.D. 5 also paid separation allowance for this period, wife therefore overpaid one account — no answer to our request of April 16, 1917. 21. Sgt. F. J. Ar7nstro7ig, lOlfth Battalion — Separation allowance cheque meant for Mrs. Annie Armstrong, Sussex, N.B., wife of Lieut. Frank Armstrong, 114th Battalion, was received and cashed by Mrs. Sarah A. Arm- strong, Sussex, N.B., wife of Sgt. F. J. Armstrong. No answer to our letter of February 12, 1917. 22. 445602, Gunner Gus Arsenault, ooth Battalion — Separation allowance, $45, overpaid. Discharged July 22, 1916, authority paymaster's letter dated October 4, 1916, for August and September and nine days in July. Mrs. Arsenault in reply to our request for refund on October 18, states she is unable to repa,y this amount. 23. No. 186505, Pte. R. Atkinson, 90th Battalion — Amount paid, $40, overpaid. Soldier returned to Canada September 29 and assigned pay should have been closed the end of September, but H.Q. file minute from Casualties Paymaster dated December 31 was our first notification. October and November cheques were mailed, no reply to our letter January 10. 24. Ceptain H. A. Wise — Separation allowance was opened in favour of guardian of his children, August 15, 1914, and paid till March, 1917. He remarried November, 1915, and separation allowance was opened for his wife. Both accounts were open till he returned to Canada and then the over-payment was discovered and adjusted. One account showed name H. H. Wise and one H. A. Wise. 25. Nursing Sister, M. F. Parkins — Assigned pay paid to her bank account till January, 1917. Deductions stopped over- seas April 1, 1916, advice not received. This was adjusted as soon as discovered. 26. Gunner S. G. Teasdall — Separation allowance to widowed mother who had previously remarried without his knowledge. Our first notification was a voluntary refund from the woman. C. M. INGALL, Major, Officer in charge, S.A. & A.P. RECEPTION. TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1187 EXHIBIT No. 3. SEPARATION ALLOWANCE AND ASSIGNED PAY BRANCH. Sample of Complaints. Ottawa, May 18, 1917, 1. No. ^7886, Pte. J. L. MacDonald, S7th Battalion, C.E.F. — Letter dated May 8 from Mr. A. C. Boyce, M.P., complaining wife of this soldier not receiving separation allowance since last July, or assigned pay since March. Separation allowance ledger sheets sent to England October 23, 1916. For some reason no payments were made in England whilst woman remained there. Woman returned to Canada — apparently did not notify the Chief Paymaster, London, was returning. Ledger sheets not received back fiom England until May 9, 1917. Cheque, $200, adjusting separ- ation allowance to end of May, forwarded May 15. Assigned pay stopped by Chief Paymaster from December 1, 1916, to February 1, 1917, owing to debit balance. Authority to re-open from February 1, only received here May 9, 1917. 2. No. 10095.',-',, Pte. John J. Morris, Zodth Battalio^i, C.E.F. — Letter from Canadian Patriotic Fund, Montreal, Que., dated May 7, stating had proof of enlistment of soldier — wife suffering great hardship through non-receipt of assigned pay and separation allowance. No record in this office. Letter sent to Record Office, who also have no record. Cable sent to Chief I'aymaster, who replies no trace of soldier on strength. Proof of enlistment written for. 3. No. 121052, Sgt. G. S. Dillinger, 2nd Depot Co. — Letter dated May 14 from Lieut.-Col. G. H. Bradbury, M.P., stating separation allow- ance had not been granted to widowed mother of this soldier. Soldier's fault. No previous application. Letter forwarded to Canadian Patriotic Fund for report ; letter forwarded to mother with statutory declaration to be executed, and letter forwarded to Lieut.-Col. Bradbury to explain the situation. 4. Pte. Adalbert St. Ledger, 165th Battalion — Letter from Mr. O. Turgeon, M.P., dated May 10, stating father of this soldier asserted he had assigned $20 per month to him prior to leaving for England about March 1. Soldier's assignment was only effective from April 1, 1917. Cheque mailed April 28. Letter to Mr. Turgeon advising accordingly. 5. No. 2-msi, Pte. G. G. Abbott, il6th Battalion — Letter from Mr. W. F. Cockshutt, M.P., asking why assigned pay of this soldier had not been received of late. Soldier assigned $20 per month, effective from April 1. Pre- vious assignment paid by Regimental Paymaster. Nominal Roll of 216th Battalion issued too late to issue cheque in April — therefore, April and May payments made together. Mr. Cockshutt advised. 6. No. &7^96, Pte. Albert J. Henderson, l8.ith Battalion — Letter from Mr. H. McConnell, Barrister, complaining this soldier's wife only in receipt of separation allowance at private's rate, whereas he insisted he was a sergeant. Card from Paymaster shows he is a private. Inquired from Record Office who stated soldier only held the rank of acting sergeant. Letter to Chief Paymaster asking for information. Letter to Mr. McConnell advising action taken. Hundreds of complaints are received from dependents of soldiers who claim separation allowance at sergeant's rate, whilst the soldier only holds the rank of acting sergeant, and the dependent only entitled to draw private's rate. 7. No. 1099657, Sergt. H. Leslie Hughes, 256th Battalion— Separation allowance granted to wife of this soldier whilst in Canada anl $12 paid. Subsequently it was ascertained soldier was a member of the Permanent Force and not entitled to separation allowance, and refund of $42 demanded. Now find that since soldier proceeded overseas, no Permanent Force allowances have been paid. No instructions received in this branch to pay Permanent Force allowance. No official notification that soldier is member of Permanent Force. Letter to District Paymaster, M. D. No. 2, who advises soldier belongs to Permanent Force. Letter to A. P. G. requesting authority to pay Permanent Force allowance. Several letters to wife trying to explain situation. 8. No. 910803, Pte. J. P. Weinmeister, 196th Battalion — Letter from Mr. Thos. McNutt, M.P., enclosing letter from brother of this soldier, stating that no assigned pay or separation allowance being paid to widowed mother, and asking that matter might be attended to forthwith, as family is of German descent, other- wise they might think not receiving the same attention as English citizens. Nominal Roll shows soldier made no assignment. No application for separation allowance ever received. Letter to Mr. McXutt explaining — letter to mother of soldier with statutory declaration to be filled in in support of application for separation allowance. Letter to Chief Paymaster explaining the situation and asking if an account for assigned pay may be put in force. 9. No. S9S0S6, Pte. Jas. Grant, e^ith Battalion — Application received for separation allowance from the wife of this soldier, Mrs. James Grant, South Branch, Col. Co., N.S., on December 7, 1916. Nominal Roll shows soldier as single and made no assignment On December 26, wrote for Marriage Certificate. Mar- 1188 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS riage Certificate received January 22. Letter written to wife for recent letter from hus- band, on February 2. No reply. Further letter written February 23. Reply enclosing letter from friend, stating husband was with battalion, but that wife had not heard directly from him. Cable sent to Chief Paymaster. Reply received, stating soldier positively asserted was not married. Letter written to wife on March 27, asking for description of husband. No reply. Copy of letter forwarded again on April 18. No reply. Matter dropped. 10. No. 285079, Pie. Elsworth Townsend, 220th Battalion. Letter received from Secretary, "Western Relief Fund, Chicago, III., applying for separ- ation allowance on account of the mother. Letter to District Paymaster, M. D. No. 2 ask- ing him to investigate. Reply received from M. D. No. 2, stated soldier absent without leave since April 5 and struck, off strength. Matter dropped. 11. Lieut. Lionel G. Bennett, 68th Batte^-y — Complaint received from Parliamentary Secretary that separation allowance was not being paid to wife. Officer received appointment November 28, 1916. No application for separation allowance received until end April, 1917. Cheque for $153 adjusting account forwarded in April. 12. No. 151189, C.S.M., A. Cottingham, 256th Battalion — Complaint received from Dr. W. G. Weichel, M.P., stating no assigned pay received by wife who is in need. Nominal Roll of this battalion received too late to issue cheque in April. Cheque for April and May payments forwarded together. Dr. Weichel advised. 13. No. 5',1066, Pte. Chas. Albert, C.A.S.C. — Complaint received from Col. J. Stanfield, M.P., no separation allowance being received by wife of this soldier. No application for separation allowance received previously. No account for assigned pay. No record of soldier on any of C.A.S.C. drafts which have proceeded overseas. Letter to Record Office for soldier's record ; letter to District Pay- master, M.D. No. 6, for report. Letter to Colonel Stanfield asking if the soldier is still in Canada and enclosed Statutory Declaration to be filled in in support of application for separation allowance. 14. No. 79^261, Pte. A. Baldwin, 132nd Battalion — Complaint received from Mr. O. Turgeon, M.P., advising that guardian of children of this soldier only in receipt of $15 per month. This is assigned pay. No separation allow- ance ever applied for or granted. Letter to Mr. Turgeon enclosing statutory declaration. Letter to Patriotic Association requesting report. Matter in abeyance. 16. No. 12507sii, Gunner Donald McLean, 77th Battery — Letter from widowed mother stating in need. No assigned pay. No separation allow- ance applied for or granted. Letter to Chief Paymaster putting facts before him and requesting him to endeavour to effect assignment. Letter to mother with Statutory Declar- ation in support of her claim for separation allowance. Matter in abeyance. 16. No. 513283, Pte. F. X. Gorman, C.A.S.C. — Long letter from mother stating son had assigned in her favour. No record of soldier. Cable to Chief Paymaster, who replied could not locate soldier. Second cable to Chief Paymaster giving soldier's correct address. Evidently the soldier had informed his mother he had made an assignment, but did not do so, for the Chief Paymaster cabled stating " endeavouring to obtain assignment." Further letter from mother, complaining that land- lady was putting her out and that she was in need. Further cable to Chief Paymaster. Cable received from Chief Paymaster, authorizing me to put assignment in force from April 1, 1917. Senator Murphy called here May 18, stating that he is satisfied this assign- ment should be effective from November 1, when the soldier proceeded overseas. A long letter to the Chief Paymaster advising him circumstances, and requesting him to notify me if assigned pay could be made retroactive to November 1, 1916. Matter in abeyance. 17. No. iSlOOS, Pte. C. F. Bennetts, 2nd Field AmbiUance— Complaint by the wife of this soldier that no cheque was received for separation allow- ance for the month of April. Records showed that cheque had gone out correctly, and Mrs. Bennetts arlvised accordingly. Second letter from Mrs. Bennetts stating cheque not yet to hand. Meantime, cheque returned to this office and cancelled, owing to incon-ect address. New cheque mailed to correct address and Mrs. Bennets advised accordingly. 18. No. imJ,2, Pte. Thos. G. Hunt, 11th C.M.R.— Complaint received from wife of soldier stating did not receive separation allowance for March. This account was closed in this office on February 28, and transferred to the Casualty Paymaster. Mrs. Hunt was advised that further payments should have been made by Casualty Paymaster, and at the same time copy of her letter was forwarded to him for attention. Letter received from Casualty Paymaster that soldier had been trans- ferred to "J" Unit, M H.C. Command. Wife of soldier advised accordingly. Copy of wife's letter forwarded to paymaster, M.H.C.C, with a request that he give immediate attention to case and communicate with the soldier's wife. 19. No. 687S65, Sapper T. T. Andrews, 172nd Battalion — Soldier married after enlistment. No offlcer's Commanding " Permission to Marry " received. Wife written for marriage certificate. Chief Paymaster written to see if Officer Commanding strongly recommended granting separation allowance. Patriotic Association RE. No. /,77.'».V',. Private F. Walsh. R.C.R — Complaint from Canadian Patriotic Fund stating wife of soldier in great need through non-reci ipt of separation allowance and assigned pay. Account stopped by Chief Pay- master in letter dated December 15, 1916, stating soldier had not hearn from his wife for IS months. Letter written to wife with this information. Letter received from wife stat- ing had written husband four times. Letter to wife giving correct address. Letter to Chief Paymaster with copy of wife's letter. Cable to Chief Paymaster to know if account could bo rconened. Letter to Patriotic Fund advising. Account now held up pending reply from Chief Paymaster. 26. Lieutenant D. N. Mclntyre, lliSrd Battalion — Letter from Patriotic Fund complaining wife of this officer unable to receive any separation allowance. No application received to this branch. Wrote Record Office for rocord. Drew H.Q. flic which showed soldier proceeded overseas with 143rd Battalion but does not appear on Nominal Roll of 143rd Battalion. Letter to wife with Statutory Declaration to be filled in. Letter to Chief Paymaster proposing the granting of separation allowance. Account in abeyance pending Statutory Declaration from wife. 27. No. 210!).',!, Private Harry Wrlls, nsth Battalion — Letter from Mrs. H. Wells. R.R. No. 2, Niagara Falls, South Ontario, claiming separ- ation allowance and assigned pay as the wife of this soldier. Account closed. Soldier reported "absent without leave" from June 11, 1916. No record of rejoming unit. Report requested from Paymaster, Military District No. 2. Our record sho%vs reply not yet received. 28. No. SSSlSi, Private John P. Weir, V,5th Battalion — Letter received from Canadian Patriotic Fund stating wife had not received any separ- ation allowance or assigned pay, and submitted Marriage Certificate. Soldier enlisted as single and made no assignment. Statutory Declaration forwarded for completion in sup- port of claim for separation allowance and letter written Chief Paymaster requesting him to have soldier paraded and explain why he did not assign pay in support of his wife. 29. No. iZeSi, Corporal Ja^nes Gray, C.F.A. — Letter from mother complaining of non-receipt of assigned pay. Account closed from February 1, 1917, as under instructions received from the Chief Paymaster. Soldier returned to Canada. Soldier was only on furlough in Canada and has now gone back to Ens'and. Request forwarded to Chief Paymaster asking that account be reopened. 80. No. U5157, Private Bernard Kelly, 5th Mounted Rifles— Letter received from the Secretary, Soldier's Khaki Club complaining assigned pay to wife closed since last November. Soldier reported "Missing", September 16, 1916. Account closed in accordance with practice in force then. Letter to Board of Pension Com- mis^ oners enclosing statement of soldiers account and requesting if same may be reopened. Further letter received from Khaki Club stating wife In great need. Further letter to Board of Pension Commissioners. Matter in abeyance pending receipt of instructions from Board of Pension Commissioners. 1190 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Jl. No. 5S8995, Pfivate A. Cummings, A.M.C., Training Depot No. 1 — Letter from Canadian Patriotic Fund stating wife of this soldier did not receive separation allowance for March and April. Badly in need of assistance, as wife has six children. Battalion Paymaster reported soldier " absent without leave " since February 3, and have received no notification of him rejoining his battalion. Urgent telephone mes- sage to Record Oflice who stated soldier had proceeded overseas with battalion. Adjusting checjue sent by registered mail forthwith. S2. No. Si9776, Private Mike J. Krosewaky, 208th Battalion — Long letter from the wife of this soldier stating applied for separation allowance. Soldier married more than 20 days after enlistment without permission of Officer Com- manding. Letter to wife with Statutory Declaration. Letter to Chief Paymaster asking if Officer Commanding strongly request that any separation allowance be granted. Account still in abeyance. 88. Sundries — Letter dated May 7, from Canadian Patriotic Fund stating that separation allowance and assigned pay of wives of soldier's for Moosejaw, Sask., had not been received, creat- ing great distress. All cheques left this branch in good time in April and any delay must have occurred through the Post Office; of course by May 7, a great many cheques could not have been delivered. Patriotic Society requested to furnish information as to any particular case. 84. No. Jii5758, Pte. J. R. Green, 55th Battalion — Letter from the father of this soldier stating had assigned $20 per month effective March 1, 1916. No instructions to open account from Chief Paymaster. Soldier has been overseas eighteen months. Letter to Chief Paymaster asking if assignment can be put into effect. Letter to father of soldier explaining. So. No. 1039187, Pte. Neil McNeil, 239th Battalion — Letter from Rev. Father Nicholson stating wife of soldier had received no separation allowance since last November and was in great need. Urgent phone message to the Record Office found soldier had proceeded overseas. Soldier had been reported " absent without leave" by Regimental Paymaster on October 28, 1916. No previous information furnished me that soldier had re-joined his unit. Adjusting cheque sent at once by special register. Wife advised. Rev. Father Nicholson advised. 86. No. JH0581, Pte. J. B. Doyle, Canadian Engineers — L^ter of complaint received from the Canadian Patriotic Fund, that wife of this soldier had not received any separation allowance. Letter to Patriotic Fund acknowl- edging their letter. Letter to Record Officer requesting information. Further complaint received from soldier. No previous application ever received in this office for separation allowance. Statutory Declaration sent to wife. 37. No. 383192, Pte. C. J. Taylor, 11,7th Battalion — Letter received from Mr. W. S. Middleborough, M.P., applying for separation allowance in favour of widowed mother. Previous application received in February, and requested her to forward clergyman's certificate ; No reply received to this request. Further complaint received from Patriotic Fund. Letter to Mr. W. S. Middleborough, M.P., asking him to have form of statutory declaration executed. Matter in abeyance pending reply. 88. No. 198663, Pte. H. Li. Tuck, 91,th Batialion — Letter of complaint from W. G. Curry stating that on three occasions had written regarding assigned pay of this soldier in favour of his father. No previous complaint ever received by me. Authority received to open account from January 1, 1917, and cheques forwarded regularly. Further letter forwarded from Mr. Curry enclosing various letters from son of father dating back to August, 1916, in which he had told his father he had assigned $20 per month. No authority has ever reached me to make any of these pay- ments. Matter referred to Chief Paymaster to find out what action soldier took before writing letters to his father that he had made this assignment. Matter still under inves- tigation. 39. No. 21693, Pte. N. F. Smedley, 100th Battalion — This soldier originally assigned $15 per month in favour of his sister. Subsequently authority was received from the Chief Paymaster diverting this from the sister to the mother, which was done. Serious complaint was received from the sister and she was advised as to why the account was diverted. Subsequently she forwarded me a letter received from her brother stating that he did not authorize the transfer of the account, and I have also received a letter from the Chief Paymaster stating that the soldier, on being paraded still denies having diverted the account. Chief Paymaster has been written to explain on what authority he made the change. 40. No. 60026, Pte. F. Bradley, 61st Battalion — This soldier assigned $16 per month in favour of his wife. Account was closed on November 1, 1916, on authority of Chief Paymaster who stated that soldier had a debit balance, but no explanation was given as to how debit balance was caused. Meantime complaint was received from Canadian Patriotic Fund that wife is in great need and has six young children. Account for assigned pay was re-opened at once and Chief Paymaster requested to advise how the debit balance was caused, and if the assignment could not be increased to assist the wife in meeting obligations which have been incurred during the time assigned pay was stopped. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1191 41. No. lOloMZ, Pte. Thos. Buchan, ith o/s Pioneer Battalion — Complaint received from Mr. Robert Buclian stating that he has a child of this soldier's, but which he is unable to support any longer owing to the non-receipt of any allowance for same. Sepaation allowance is being paid to an aunt, Ms. Ostrotog, as guardian of the children. The Patriotic Society will be requested to report at once as to the facts of the case, and if the present guardian is not providing for the children other arrangements will be made. 42. General — Various complaints are being received from dependents of soldiers to the effect that they have not received separation allowance for some particular month. This is due evidently to the fact that they have changed their address witout forwarding me any notl- floation and the cheques are lying at their old post office perhaps, awaiting investigation. The postmaster has to be communicated with and cheques returned here or forwarded to their new address. 43. No. 1^1652, Pte. F. A. Buckhurst, A. Co., 21st Battalion — Complaint received from this soldier was forwarded to Canada that before he left England, he made a .special remittance of $25. No authority to pay any special remit- tance has been received at this office. As the soldier's wife is in urgent need of funds the matter will be taken up by the Casualty Paymaster by telephone at once, and if a special remittance is shown on the soldier's last pay certificate a cheque will be issued. The delay of course is not the fault of this branch. 44. No. 92850t, Pte. Robt. Minshcll, ISSrd Battalion — Account for separation allowance closed as from February 1, 1917, as soldier was reported " absent without leave." No notification was received by me that he had returned to duty, but on taking the. matter up with the District Paymaster, I was informed that the soldier had returned to duty P'ebruary 16, 1917. Account was re-opened forthwith. C. M. INGALL, Major, Officer in charge, 8. A. & A. P. I MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS. House of Commons Chamber^ Tuesday, June 5, 1917. The Committee met at 10 o'clock, a.m., the Chairman, Sir Herbert Ames, presiding. Presext: Sir Herbert Ames, Chairman; Brigadier-General Mason of the Senate Committee, Sir Edward Kemp, Minister of Militia, Mr, R. B. Bennett, Hon. Charles Marcil, Hon. F. B. McCurdy, Mr. W. S. Middlebro, Hon. Charles Murphy, Mr. W. F. Nickle, Mr. Ducan Eoss and Mr. Donald Sutherland, In Attendance: The Delegates of the Great War Veterans Association of Canada, namely : — Major W. P. Purney, President, Halifax, N.S. Sgt. -Major J. Robinsou, 1st Vice-President, Vancouver, B.C. J. J. Shanahan, 2nd Vice-President, Toronto. N. F. R. Knight, Sec'y-Treasurer, Ottawa. EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE. New Brunswick — S. C. Tippett, St. John. Quebec — Major J. R. Anderson, Montreal. Ontario — Captain K. C. Macpherson, Ottawa. Manitoba — A. C. Hay, Winnipeg. Saskatchewan — Captain I. Finn, Prince Albert. Alberta — W. Irwin, Edmonton. British Columbia — H. E. Stalford, Vancouver, also Col. Arthur Mignault of Montreal. Major J. L. Todd representing the Board of Pension Commissioners of Canada. Mr. E. H. Scammell representing the Military Hospitals Commission ; and Mr. T. B. Kidner, representing Vocational Training of Returned Soldiers. The Chairman: Gentlemen, I will call the meeting to order and prepare for the business of this morning, and, inasmuch as everybody is very busy here, we will dispense with the minutes and the communications, and deal with those at a later date. I see the agenda has something on it about an address to the delegates by the Chairman. I will content myself by saying that we are very pleased to have you gentlemen here this morning and shall expect you to do all the talking. We would like to hear the resolutions that you are prepared to present, and whatever you have to say in support of these resolutions, and if you desire to meet the Returned Soldiers' Committee again either on Wednesday or Thursday morning, to go more fully into details in regard to specific cases, we shall be glad to give you a hearing. 1194 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Major W. J. Purney, President Returned Soldiers Association of Halifax : I was eiven to understand yesterday that our programme this morning would be somewhat as follows: That I would be called on to give a general declaration as to our aims and objects in an endeavour to justify our existence as an association, and after- wards we would present certain resolutions which we had adopted after coming together here, and which were proper matters to be dealt with by your committee. Am I correct in that? The Chairman: Yes. That is quite agreeable to us. You are the President of the duly organized Great War Veterans Association for the Dominion of Canada. Major PuRNEY : Yes. This will be our first opportunity for giving public expres- sion to our aims and objects and for what we stand. The Chairman: I may say the proceedings of this meeting are being reported stenographically, so that everything that is said will be printed in our record and used for subsequent reference. Major Purney: While I well knew when I came to Ottawa yesterday that I would have the pleasure of appearing before the Parliamentary Committee appointed to deal with the problem connected with returned soldiers, I had no idea that it would be in this way. I thought it was merely a matter of the taking of evidence. How- ever, I cannot refrain from expressing my satisfaction that we are given the oppor- tunity of setting forth our aims and objects, and endeavouring in that way to justify our existence, and perhaps touching on matters which may not strictly concern you as a committee. As many of you know, ever since men commenced to return from this war, small associations have been formed in various sections of the country, and these associations have been rapidly increasing imtil, at the beginning of the present year, in most of the provinces of the Dominion there were many local associations formed, some of which carried a large membership going well up into the hundreds in many cases. In April last we conceived the idea of organizing for the whole' Dominion, and on the IQth April and following days of that month, delegates from a number of the associations in all the provinces met at Winnipeg for this purpose. At that convention the Great War Veterans Association of Canada was organized, and it is the executive of that association which has been called here to-day. The Chairman: Are you all present? Major PCrney: We are all present. The Chairman : I think it would be well to put on the record the names of your officers and executive and the places where you live. You can hand it in and it will be placed on the record. Major Purney : We represent to-day a membership in the neighbourhood of 10,000 in number, and the membership is rapidly increasing. As to our aims and objects, we have defined them in rather general language. I want to be as brief as possible in my remarks. Our aims and objects are about as follows: — To perpetuate the close and kindly ties of mutual service in the great war, the recollections and associations of that experience, and to maintain proper standards of dignity and honour between all the returned soldiers. To preserve the memory and record of those who have suffered and died for the nation, to see to the erection of monuments to their valour, and the provision of suitable burial places and the establishment of a memorial day, to insure that proper provision is made for the due care of the sick, wounded and needy, among those who have served, including reasonable pension, employment for such as are capable, soldiers' home, medical care, and equitable provision for dependent families of enlisted men, to con- stantly inculcate loyalty to Canada and the Empire in unstinted terms in their interest. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1195 Now, sir, I think it must be admited that our objects and our intentions as indi- cated by those objects, are most worthy ones, and deserving of the most sympathetic support of the Government of tliis country. It has been thought possibly that we might have left some of these things to others. And, now right at this point, that we may not be misunderstood I want you to understand that we are not proposing to remove any responsibility to our own shoulders that is now being borne by those who should properly bear it. Rather, sir, it is our object in such cases to see that the responsibility is recognized by those who have it, and that they properly and eflBciently discharge their responsibility. In that way, we feel that we shall indirectly, but very effectively, I trust, attain some of our objects; and we should not overlook, or permit to be over- looked, any of those matters which concern the returned soldier. We surely are one of the most interested parties, and although we have full faith, and are not unwilling to put our trust, in the big-hearted public of this country, yet we know, and you all know, that it has been the history of all wars among all peoples, and in this busy modern life of the great commercial world it is likely to be even more the case that the men who in the day of great trial were ready to give, and did give, their time, their health, their careers, who abandoned willingly their natural opportunities in Jife, and were ready even to make the supreme sacrifice, that these men who, while they were in the performance of their great duties were the idols of their countrymen, eventually ceased to become the objects of interest they formerly were. Human nature ever was and ever will be the same. Life is too strenuous in these days for that interest to continue a permanent one in the minds of the public. Now, sir, do not take from my statement that we do not feel that this country has not already made, or will not mak«, provision for her disabled soldiers. We realize that much has been done, and that much will be done, and done willingly; but we think it is our duty to safeguard for the future — for that future when the idol and object of almost tender interest of to-day may become an object of practical indifference. We are the comrades and the brothers of those who in dying for King and Country, have left to the care of their country, and more especially to their comrades, their own loved ones, the memory of whom was the last conscious thought of many a hero as he lay dying in the muddy trench. Here I say that we shall be true to our sacred trust and those bereft ones shall be to us our own fathers, our own mothers, our own sisters and our own little brothers. It is not always the pension law, it is not always the public fund, which will meet the case, but it will be our aim to play the part of the comrade true and tried and our living, though maimed, brothers and the loved ones of our departed brothers from the East to the West shall ever feel secure under the sheltering wing of our more than Masonic Order. As a conclusion to this portion of my remarks, may I ask: "Can the patriot, — can the man who loves his country, — can the man who desires to be a worthy citizen of this great country, made great by the blood and suffering of its young manhood, — can he justify his existence as a citizen of Canada if he fails to co-operate heart and soul in our great work." I will not answer the question, for that answer is written indelibly in your hearts, and you can see your duty plainly. I feel sure that you will do it. We feel too that by our efforts to preserve the memory and records of those who have died for Canada we shall be doing much to keep alive that proud spirit which is so essential to the life of any nation; that spirit which the Huns thought had so deteriorated in the British people, but which, thank Heaven, only slumbered and was there ready to manifest itself in our race in greater brilliancy than ever; that spirit which exists in the heart of every true Canadian and which will again have to be reckoned with should our freedom ever be threatened in future, which, pray God, it may not, and which will demonstrate to future generations how willingly the sons of Canada went forth and endured great sacrifices. [Major W. P. Purney.] 1196 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS I want you to understand — and I feel that possibly we may have been mis- understood in some quarters in this respect — that our aims are worthy ones, and we trust that we shall not so conduct ourselves that the public of this country may think that we are unreasonable. We feel that our objects are worthy ones and we wish to keep our demands within the bounds of reason, realizing that there is a tendency in some quarters possibly to go beyond that stage. I wish to assure you that the great body of the War Veterans of this country only ask that they be given reasonable consideration, and having in mind that feeling we wish to present only what we consider are reasonable requests. There are many things which we would like to bring to your attention if time would permit, but we shall content ourselves with bringing before you such matters as we consider of pressing importance. In passing, will you permit me to say that we deem it advisable that our attitude in the matter of conscription should be known — not that it concerns this committee at all, but as it is now a matter of national importance, and one in which the returned soldier, speaking for his comrade in the trenches, is vitally interested, perhaps you will permit us to take this opportunity of placing our view on record. While we have very broad and far-reaching views on this question, and while we may connect the conscription of manhood for fighting purposes with the conscription of the other resources of our country, yet I want it to be clearly understood that we stand, and stand clearly for selective conscription. The other phases of conscription which may be dealt with here this morning or elsewhere later, while they also may express our views and our hopes, yet we want it clearly understood that we are quite willing to sacrifice the consideration of them if they should have the effect of blocking or delaying the main scheme of simple selective conscription, for our comrade across the sea is calling and he must not call in vain. A great question which must arise and must be dealt with is that of reorganiza- tion, which of course involves demobilization. The speaker who will follow me will give our views on this great question, and I assure you that we have given it very serious consideration, but no consideration of such a matter could be too careful or too serious. The matter of pensions too, we wish to bring up in a general way, and while we may seem to lay great stress on this pension matter, yet I wish to assure you that it is only in the spirit of the guardians and protectors of our maimed comrades, or the representatives of the dependents of those who have fallen, that we deal with this question. It is our hope — it is our aim that we be more than careful to guard against the destruction or the weakening of the spirit of independence in our returned com- rades, whom we wish to see take their places in the country as industrious, progres- sive and worthy citizens, but we have to bear in mind that all cannot do that, and for these we must see that proper provision is made. The present pension is inade- quate; but this question will be more fully dealt with later. The land question is our other great question. There has always been a land scheme in connection with soldiers, but alas, few of them have ever been of any real benefit to the soldiers. But now I am convinced there is a disposition to deal with this question in an intelligent manner, and while the suggestions we offer in this matter are the result of the thought and consideration of experienced men, yet there may be others as good, and we will be found open to conviction. However, we would not care to see any land measure put through (unless it be one based on our own plans) with- out an opportunity of a thorough discussion of it. And we come to possibly the most important question of all — that of the re-ednca- tion of the partly disabled soldier. Let me tell you that I do not think you have yet grasped the meaning of that over here. Ee-adaptation is not re-education. These men can be re-educated — so re-educated that they are not only as good as before, but better. Now, there is no system for giving that. There is only one in the world, and that is RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1197 the French system. That, we would like to see put into effect in this country, and I tell you frankly, sir, we will bo satisfied with nothinjir less. All European countries are adopting it and we feel now that you have only to look into it carefully to recom- mend it. Therefore, I say to you : "Go to it with our blessing." We have a great deal of information in our hands with reference to it which we shall be glad to hand over to you. Now these matters to which I have referred are our principal ones, and are matters in which we strongly urge that action be taken at once. We have other matters which may be brought to your attention, and in respect to which we shall content ourselves with offering suggestions, with the hope that they may be favourably entertained and acted upon, but we wish and pray for prompt action in the larger matters of, — Conscription — and I want to remind you in speaking of this that we represent our comrades beyond the seas; Reorganization, when the men come home; Of Pensions, of the important land scheme, and in the still more important matter of the re-education of the maimed men. Gentlemen, I thank you very much for the manner in which you have listened to me, and I thank you for the opportunity given us to place our demands before you. We understand, of course, that this means recognition of our claims and our rights to be the spokesmen of the returned and unreturned soldiers. This association and the recognition of it, are things that were bound to come. They were as certain to be as the coming and going of the day and night, or of the seasons, and. gentlemen, I can only say that you have done it at the proper time, and we appreciate the fact that you are trjdng to do it in a fit^ and proper manner. Now one more word with respect to recognition: soon it will be necessary for you to appoint various com- mittees and commissions to deal with the returned soldier, and with his problems, particularly that of his return to civilian life. Gentlemen, we ask you that wherever possible on such committees and on such commissions, you should recommend the appointment of a man recommended by and representing the Great War Veterans of Canada. You must realize that such a step would certainly bring about greater confidence in all such committees and commissions, and we feel sure that such representation will do much towards the more speedy settlement of the many vexing problems which will come up before the government of the country. Now, sir, I will detain you no longer. You have been very good, and I must reciprocate, and, probably I can do so in no better way than in bringing my remarks to a conclusion. Hon. Mr. Mukphy: In the statement you have just made you have enumerated the aims and objects of your association. Your association has a Bill for incor- poration before the Senate, and in that Bill I notice that the objects of the associ- ation, as stated there, go beyond those you have enumerated here to us this morning. There are twice as many objects enumerated in the Bill as you have stated to the committee. Is there any reason for not enumerating those objects, oth^r than those you have referred to this morning? Major Purney: Not at all; I only wanted to cover the ground as quickly as possible. Hon. Mr. Murphy: And the whole of the objects of your association are as stated in this Bill? Major Purney: Yes. The Chairman: Major Purney has kindly furnished me with a statement of the subjects which the association desire to cover this morning, together with the resolu- tions that they will present, and the names of the gentlemen who are to present them. While the members of the committee may desire to ask questions with regard to some of those matters, I think it would be better, in order to get the record as complete as [Major W. P. Purney.] 1198 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS possible, tbat these gentlemen should be allowedi to make their presentation without interruption as far as practicable. Some of these questions upon which they desire to make representations, do not, rightly, belong to this committee and, as these gentle- men have an appointment at 12 o'clock with Sir Thomas White, the Finance Minis- ter, who will deal with the matter of the Pensions Act, with Sir Edward Kemp, Minister of Militia, and the Hon. Dr. Roche, Minister of the Interior, who are to give a special hearing to these gentlemen with reference to matters which specially pertain to their departments, I would suggest that those resolu- tions which particularly affect the Government, instead of this committee, such as the matter of pensions, compulsory legislation and the alien question, be left to the Government and also that whatever representations on those respective questions the delegates may desire to make should be repeated to the Government, and that we merely put on the record the resolutions which deal with those subjects, such as com- pulsory legislation, the alien question, etc. Major Purney: If you will, Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen, permit me to put on record our resolution respecting conscription, we shall be satisfied; in the matter of demobilization, we would like to be heard on that. With regard to pensions we will present our reasons in support of the recommendation, which I thinlc you may fairly hear. The land question will be embodied in the resolution with a very few explana- tory remarks, which we would like to have on record. On the matter of re-education we would like Major Anderson to be heard, he will be very brief. The matter of orphan children will be nothing more than a resolution and the transportation of men on furlough, will also be nothing more than a resolution; pay-department, that is simply a resolution and, I think the same as you, sir, that with regard to those subjects on the list with which your committee would have nothing to do, that it will be sufficient to put the resolution with reference to them on the record. That applies also to the land resolution, which will be a matter for the Government. The Chairman: Sergeant-Major J. Robinson, D.C.M., Vancouver, B.C., First Vice-President, will present the resolution on compulsory legislation. Sergeant-Major Robinson, D.C.M.: Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen:— The Officers, Executive Committee Members, and Membership of the Great War Veterans Association of Canada, realizing the sacred claims upon us of our comrades in the trenches and knowing their urgent need for reinforcement; And whereas those who have gone, and will go overseas, have sacrificed all personal hope and private interest, for the time being, giving up everything for the nation's life ; declare ourselves in favour of any legislation, however extreme, which will meet conditions fully, and cause a more equitable distribution of duty .and sacrifice amongst all citizens of Canada; We urge the adoption of the following or similar measures: — (1) That all departments of the Government service be searched and an effort be made to comb out all eligible single and married men without children, between the ages of 18 and 45, who are avoiding military service, and that they be immediately attested and put in training for overseas service, care being taken that the work of the department be not seriously disarranged in which event the places of the men so called in the department shall be filled as soon as possible by competent returned soldiers first and then by persons ineligible. (2) That all officers, N.C.O.'s, and men now employed in guard and home service duty, who are fit for overseas service, and have received reasonable training, be immediately sent overseas in drafts to fill the gaps in the fighting forces; provision being made for men in the Canadian Defence Force who are physicially fit to be discharged and brought under the new order. rSersrt-Mn Hnr T ■Rr.v.iner.n n RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1199 (3) That wherever possible, in the industries of the country where men eligible for military service are employed and their places could be efficiently filled by returned soldiers, older men and men ineligible for military service, and women if need be, these men be taken to complement the overseas forces till victory is awarded the Allies and the need no longer exists. We feel that men in non-essential industries, and others who have no settled productive value in the scale of the country's effort should be the first impressed for military service. (4) That all aliens, enemy or otherwise, resident in Canada, be also conscripted for any service which the Government deem fit to use them for in the best interests of the State. (5) That all factories, public utilities, and general industries necessary to the immediate successful conclusion of the war be taken over and conducted by the Government. Such compensation to be made to the present owners as shall be just and equitable. (6) That it shall require that all incomes and wealth, in excess of the holders' reasonable needs be placed at the disposal of the Government for the successful prosecution of the war, and to meet the immense financial drain on the country, equitable retribution to be made as soon after the end of the war as possible so that the principle may be carried out that one citizen shall not give more than another that all shall give their best for the preservation of the nation. (7) That if any general system of compulsory service is put in force, the Government, which is the body corporate of the people of Canada make ample provision for those who may be disabled in the service and the dependents of those whose lives have been, or may be sacrificed in their country's cause, and that a definite and comprehensive understanding be given to this effect. These several resolutions we recognize ourselves as being rather extreme, and some doubtless will criticise us because of our stand on this platform. None more than we desire to see the war won and our comrades back in their old places having ourselves been overseas and knowing a little of how things stand. No measure put into effect by the Government of the Dominion of Canada is too extreme if it will hasten the accomplishment of our purpose in the successful conclusion of the Great War. I would like, for one minute, to address the committee further. The Great War Veterans Association excludes all other things, and we place ourselves solely and totally for conscription first in the Dominion of Canada. The Chairman : Item 3, Eesolutiou of Department of Demobilization, Norman Knight, Secretary-Treasurer of the Great War Veterans Association. Mr. Norman Knight: This Executive Committee of the Great War Veterans Association of Canada, while recognizing the valuable and earnest efforts that have been expended, to great advantage, by the various bodies now operating in behalf of the Returned Soldiers and the settlement of their difficulties, cannot refrain from expressing their opinion that the present system does not effectively meet the situa- tion: and respectfully request the Government of the Dominion of Canada that they pay heed to our complaint, and adopt other means for dealing with the returned soldier problem, such as we shall now present for consideration. Let us first point out the desirability of having the work of demobilization carried out altogether along civilian lines, with a complete separation from military or semi-military ideas. The object is to take men who have done nothing for the greater part of two or three years except the preparation for, and actual carrying out of a soldier's life and remake them into peaceful, useful and productive citizens again. It required experts, in a military sense, to put these men in the field trained, [Mr. Xorman Knight.] 1200 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS disciplined and capable soldiers. It is going to take experts, men of broad knowledge and big hearts, who know Canada well, to accomplish this greatest project (with one exception perhaps — the winning of the war) before the people of Canada to-day The responsibility for the proper settlement of the Eeturned Soldiers and dependents belongs to the whole people of Canada, which is embodied in the Government of the Dominion of Canada. Any system which, in part even, depends upon public charity, or private benevolence, is an improper system, since it delegates a public function to a private body. Canada must not evade its obligations and disregard the promise made to the man who left our shores to fight for us, by leaving anything undone which will make life more worth living to those who have incurred disability in service, or whose breadwinner has been taken away. As conditions prevail in Canada to-day, we have a Pensions Board Commission, Military Hospitals Commission, Soldiers Aid Commission, or similar body, and various other institutions, all endeavouring, as we fain would believe, to do their utmost to "arrive at a satisfactory solution of the various problems. We very readily affirm the conditions are very much better because of the work already accomplished by these agencies. It is not our aim to question the personnel of the various institutions. To those, however, who have had occasion to have dealings with them, the amount of overlapping is very apparent. It is almost impossible , to ascertain where the respon- sibility rests in any matter requiring adjustment. One is sent first to one individual and- then the other, and it is exceedingly difficult to obtain results. This necessitates delay and often works needless hardship upon returned men and dependents of deceased soldiers. Any system to be effective must be prompt. We appreciate the difficulties experienced by the present authorities in the handling of some cases in particular: and in order to facilitate arrangements and make possible a more satisfac- tory method of dealing with the various problems respecting returned men, and depen- dents of deseased soldiers, we beg to submit: (1) That a Department be created which shall be entirely separated from any other Department of the Government, to be known as the Department of Demobilization, to which shall be referred all matters in connection with Returned or Discharged Soldiers and the dependents of deceased soldiers, to be con- ducted along strictly non-partisan and business lines, and to continue until the need no longer exists. (2) That this Department shall be presided over by a Director of Demobilization, who shall be directly responsible for the conduct of his Department, and shall be given powers 'Sufficiently broad to cover immediate disposition in any case which may be submitted to him. The man chosen as Director should be an advanced student of economics, especially applying to our own peculiar Christian problems, and a man absolutely independent of party, or any objectionable influences. (3) That wherever possible, in carrying out of the work of the Department of Demobilization, whether in the central or branch office, in the Pensions, Hospitals, Medical, Relief, Employment, Land Settlement, Functional and Vocational Training and every other section returned soldiers be employed as clerks and secretaries, and when efficient and capable men can be secured from amongst them, as assistant Directors and superintendents. (4) That branch offices be so located in central points as to be conveniently reached by claimants, who shall be provided with transportation when, in the opinion of the Local Superintendent, the case warrants close attention to the office, and cannot readily be adjusted in the usual way. These district offices to be charged with all matters pertaining to the well being of returned soldiers, and deceased soldiers dependents in their own locality, and directly responsible to the Central organization. In the foregoing, we, members of the Executive Committee of the Great War Veterans Association of Canada, offer what we believe to be sensible and reasonable rMr. Norman TCnie-ht.l RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1201 suggestions. We have not gone into extensive detail, because the time is not ripe for it. With complete organization, and a programme based upon expert scientific advice and sound economic principles, we have confidence in the fairmindedness and intelli- gence of the people of Canada. Too often what other countries have done in con- nection with this great problem is quoted. We see no reason why our own country, this fair Canada, should not take the lead, and by so doing point the world to a happier way of settling difficulties, broader and more generous, vindicating her absolute faith and perfect confidence in the man who counted it joy to serve in her hour of need, suffering, enduring and dying, when the hearts of loved ones, mothers, wives and children, breaking at home, preferred rather a nation's honour than the love of son, husband and father. We come to protest, gentlemen, not so much on our own account, but on behalf of those who cannot be here, against the wrongs of the present system. We are not finding fault with any persons, believing that the majority engaged in the work are earnest and sincere in their endeavour to meet the present situation. Because of a faulty system, even present needs are not filled, and some are in want and evil circumstances who should not be. What of the day when the returning thousands shall demand attention? Surely we are not bound to the old system when another promises to better fill the need. The Chairman : The next item on the programme is recommendations regarding pensions, by Captain Kenneth Macpherson. Capt. Kenneth C. Macpherson: Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, the question of pensions is probably the most difficult one with which we have to deal. We have, how- ever, gone into it pretty thoroughly, and we have a number of recommendations which we think will benefit the returned men and their dependents; things which have been omitted in the past and which, if considered and brought into force wo\ild help to relieve the situation considerably. Our memorandum is as follows: RECOMMENDATIONS re PENSIONS. The Executive Committte of the Great War Veterans Associations of Canada respectfully submit the following suggestions: — (1)- That in order that none may benefit more than another, but that all service may be alike recognized, we recommend an equalized scale of pensions for all ranks of the Canadian Expeditionary Force. (2) That the total disability pension be increased from $480 per annum to $840 per annum. In connection with the foregoing recommendation we have arrived at the figure of $840 per ann\im by taking figures from the Labour Gazette of April, 1917, having to do with the cost per week of a family budget of staple foods, fuel, lighting and rent. The Chairman: That statement will be printed in the record. Capt. Macpherson : (Reads.) (3) That the pension paid to a widow and a widowed mother of a deceased soldier, who have no children under 18 depending upon them, be 80 i)er cent of the total disability pension, but, if having dependents, it shall be the maximum amount. (4). That the allowance for children be increased from $6.00 per month to $12.00 per month. (5) That the allowance for motherless children be increased from $12.00 per month to $20.00 per month. (6) That the pensions paid to the children of deceased soldiers be continued until the age of eighteen be reached. [Capt. K. C. Macpherson.] OQO'r'T fro 1202 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS (7) That when a widow remarries, and thus foregoes further pension for herself, her children by her soldier husband shall be entitled to receive the rate in force for motherless children. (8) That careful consideration be given to the request by and on behalf of the widows and dependents of British and other reservists of our Allies for supplementary grants, to place these widows and dependents on a par with the dependents of members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force, providing they were resident in Canada prior to the outbreak of the War. (9) That in the event of a discharged soldier dying directly or indirectly form wounds or disease contracted while on active service and tlu-ough no fault of his own, a pension shall be granted to the dependent or dependents of such man of an amount equal to that which would have been awarded to such depen- dent or dependents had the man died before receiving his discharge. (10) That in the event of the discharged soldier suffering increased dis- ability through having undertaken some employment, or through no fault of his own, the Pension Board shall have power to increase the man's pension in pro- portion to the increased disability. (11) That in the event of a man becoming insane, and it becomes necessary to send him to an institution, the dependent or dependents shall be entitled to the full disability pension, and the Government shall bear the cost of the man in the institution. (12) That a pension once awarded, after a man's disability has reached its final condition, shall not be changed to a man's disadvantage. (This is taken from the British Pension scheme.) (13) That very severe facial disfigurement be included under the heading of total disablement. (British Pension scheme.) (14) That gratuities be abolished, and that the ratio of disability be expressed by units of five per cent, and not in units of twenty per cent as under the present scale. (15) That a clear, simple and comprehensive statement of the principles governing the Pension Act, and of all the opportunities afforded for full con- sideration of grievances, be compiled in pamphlet form, together with a copy of the Pensions Act, and given to every soldier upon his discharge. (16) That when the first pension cheque is mailed to a beneficiary (other than the man himself), it be accompanied by one of the aforementioned pam- phlets. (17) That whenever an application for pension is refused, a letter contain- ing a full explanation be sent to the applicant. (18) That the degree of pension recommended by a local pension board be not decreased by the Board of Pension Commissioners without first seeing the man in question themselves. (19) That provision be made for a dissatisfied pension claimant to appear in persou'before the Board of Pension Commissioners. (20) That, in special cases, not covered by the Pensions Act, the Board of Pension Commissioners be empowered to make such provision as they shall deem advisable. (21) That, wherever possible, returned doctors be employed on Medical Boards. (22) We would further respectfully urge on the Government their con- sideration of supplementing the pensions awarded soldiers of the Imperial Gov- ernment, who were reservists of the forces of Great Britain, resident in Canada at the outbreak of the war, by such an award as will put them on a parity with the soldiers of the Canadian Expeditionary Eorce, providing they again settle in Canada. Some of these recommendations, Sir, have been taken from the British pension RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1203 The Chairman : Have you seen the new pension warrant which has just come over from England? Captain MAcriiKRSON : 1 have not. We adopted these from articles regarding the new British pension system that we had seen in the newspapers. The Chairman : I will let you have a copy of it. Captain Macpherson :, I might point out with regard to raising the age of children from sixteen to eighteen, as recommended in resolution No. 6, that we consider it advisable in order to give a child a better opportunity for proper education. Another question was the allowance of motherless children, to increase it from $12 to $20 per month : that is to be taken up later by one of the other members of the executive. It involves tlie question of putting children of deceased soldiers who have no mothers in the homes of other returned soldiers instead of putting them in institutions. If proper provision is made, so they can be kept properly, a great many can be taken in. All these figures, sir, that we have quoted with regard to pensions have been taken up and arrived at from the Labour Gazette, and from another point of view in connection with the cost of army rations. I think the reasons for these recommendations are explained in the statements which support them. The Chauiman : The statements can be filed. Documents filed by Captain Macpherson. Figures from the Labour Gazette for April, 1917, having to do with the cost per week of a family budget of staple foods, fuel, and lighting, and rent in terms of the average prices in sixty cities in Canada, are as follows (family of five) : — Beef, sirloin steak 2 pounds. '562 " shoulder roast 2 " '382 Veal, roast 1 " '216 Mutton, roast 1 " '265 Pork, fresh roast 1 " '268 " salt 2 " -468 Bacon, breakfast 1 " '333 Lard 2 " •528- Eggs, fresh 1 dozen. '469 " cooking 1 " '418 Milk ' 6 quarts. '606 Butter, dairy 2 pounds. "854 creamery 1 " '487 Cheese, old 1 " "319 new 1 " '301 Bread 15 " "905 Flour 10 " '530 Rolled oats 5 " -275 Rice 2 " -130 Beans 2 " '256 Apples, evaporated 1 " '142 Prunes, medium 1 " "140 Sugar, granulated 4 " '364 yellow 2 " '168 Tea, black i " '107 " green i " '107 Coffee 1 " '100 Potatoes 2 pecks. '987 Vinegar J pint. '008 Total cost of staple foods $10*70 Starch for laundry '035 Fuel and lighting 2 28 Rent 4 16 Grand total per week $17 18 Total per annum. 52 weeks $893 36 To this must be added the following items for which no provision is made in the above (estimated) — Soap, matches, vegetables and fruit 36 00 Insui-ance 35 00 Clothing r 180 00 Medical care and medicine 50 00 $1,195 36 1204 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS No. 1. Cost of army rations for one man, per month at retail prices, taken for Ottawa in Labour Gazette, -ndthout fresh vegetables, is as follows : — 30 days. 1 day. Rate. Price. Bread 30 lbs 30 lbs 30 lbs 5g lbs 4 lbs 4 lbs 4 lbs 51 lbs 12 lbs 1| lbs 1 lb 1 lb 10 ozs 7i ozs 1 oz . . . . i lb 1 lb 1 lb 1 lb 3 ozs 2 ozs .... 2 ozs 2 ozs 3 ozs C ozs 1 oz , . . i oz i oz i oz 1 oz i_ oz •OG lb.. •28 lb.. $3.25 bag.. ■33 lb.. •12 lb . •15 lb.. •47 lb.. •08^ lb.. 14 lb.. •01 lb.. •45 lb.. •55 lb.. $ 1.80 Meat 8.40 Potatoes., Bacon Beans ... 1.08 1.85 .48 e, learning of what France was doing, sent delegates to study the system, and established the same system in the different countries. To my own knowledge the Amar system of re-education was established at Milan, Naples and Rome. I knew the gentleman who came to Paris to study the Amar system, and who returned to Italy with the instruments and established it there. Officers from Russia did the same thing; and the Amar system, as Major Anderson said, was adopted in twenty centres in Russia. Very shortly after beginning to look into the system, I was visited by General Jones, who was then in command of the Canadian Medical Services. I showed General Jones what was being done in France with the Amar system. Under his direction, I bought a set of instru- ments and sent them to England, and this system is now in operation at the Canadian Hospital at Ramsgate. The English Red Cross have adopted it in their hospitals in London. When I was in France I visited Dr. Amar as often as I could, I used to see him every week or twice a week. Dr. Amar received a great many letters from Ger- many, and to my knowledge different German hospitals introduced the Amar system under the contention that it was to be used for maimed French soldiers. When I left Paris at the end of last December, every country in Europe had adopted the French system of functional re-educatiom I have learned lately, though I am not positive about it, that the United States has also adopted it, and it is now in use at Provi- dence, R.I. It is on the principle that the system is now universal, that I would suggest that the Great War Veterans Association should urge that it be adopted in Canada. The apparatus required for this system is very cheap. A complete set of instruments which would be enough to take care of between fifty and one hundred soldiers a day, used to cost only $1,000 and Canada could be equipped fully at the expense of a few thousand dollars. The Chairman: For our benefit. Col. Mignault, would you be willing to prepare a very brief statement of what the Amar system is, so that it may appear in our re- cord? Col. Mignault: Unhappily, Sir Herbert, my report — I suppose it is because I am a physician, and I might say the same thing of ^lajor Todd's report — is technical. I would advise you to see Sir Henry Norman's report. He is a business man, and I believe you will understand his report a great deal better than you will understand mine, because he is, like yourself, a member of Parliament, who has been investigat- ing the same questions that you have been looking into since the beginning of the war. I believe that Sir Henry Norman's report is very good, though I will give you a short statement, if you desire. [Col. A. Mignault.] 1210 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS The CiTMRivtAN: 1 have read Sir Henry Norman's report. His report covers his whole investigation of the I^rench system, covering eight or ten months spent in France. There is a section dealing with the Amar system. We also have Major ToddVj report on the same subjoct. Mr. Koss ('Middlesex) : Was the Amar apparatus introduced at Eamsgate Hos- pital? Col. Mioxault: It was sent to Eamsgate by me. Very unhappily, it was not put into use at Eamsgate immediately, because the man who was to. take charge of it died, I sent it on the first of August. I do not remember the name of the officer in charge of functional re-education at Eamsgate, but he died, and there was no one at that time familiar with the system. . Mr. Eoss (Middlesex) : Then it was not really put into use at Eamsgate? Col. Mignault: I do not know. The man died while the instruments were on the way over. Mr. Eoss (Middlesex) : You do not know what became of them? Col. Mignault: When they were received at Eamsgate, not knowing what they were, the instruments were sent to cold storage. When I got back here, one day in January, I sent a telegram to Eamsgate and asked them how they were getting along with the instruments. They sent me a long letter, saying that, not knowing what they were, the instruments had been sent to Southampton, which is the storage head- quarters. So I got into communication with one of the gentlemen of the Militia Department and a telegram was sent back to London, and the instruments are now at Eamsgate and are being used at the Canadian Hospital, and they are also in use at the Eed Cross Hospital in London. Mr. Eoss (Middlesex) : Are those the only two hospitals in Great Britain where they are being used? Col. Mignault: I am talking to you about last fall. Since then, I have been in this country. I cannot say how extensively they are used now. The Chairman : Thank you. Col. Mignault. Sergt. A. C. Hay, of Winnipeg, will speak now about orphan children. Sergt. A. C. Hay: As old returned soldiers, we are very sympathetic, and more so when it comes to the children. We think we should show our chivalry in regard to the children of our deceased comrades, to many of whom, when dying, we have given a promise that we should do all in our power to look after their children. We offer the following resolution : In as much as it has come to our knowledge that in some cases children of soldiers who have lost both father and mother are being placed in public insti- tutions throughout Canada, and believing that it would be best for these unfor- tunate children to be mothered and cared for in the homes of good people, with- out wishing in any way to reflect upon any persons or societies engaged in the work of ministering to children, we the Executive Committee of the Great War Veterans Association of Canada respectfully resolve : That the Government of the Dominion of Canada whose wards they are, increase the amount of pension at present paid children's claims to a reason- able allowance, and that an effort be made in the case of every orphaned child to find a suitable home, preferably with a soldier's widow, with children of her own. That the Government preserve the records of the father's sacrifice for the child's benefit, and in no case permit the child to lose the father's name. I thank you, gentlemen. RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1211 The Chairman : You have, I think, a further resolution regarding the transporta- tion of men on furlough? Sergt. Hay: The following resolution was brought into effect owing to the fact that several nien who joined the first Canadian contingent, and who have been over- seas for a long while, within the last two or three months returned to Canada on fur- lough. In one case one soldier had four children and another five children, and both had to pay their own fare to come to Canada and their own fare to go back. I do not think any man should have to pay his fare to go back and make the supreme sacrifice. Our resolution is as follows: This Executive Committee of the Great War Veterans Association of Canada, are of the opinion that it is very unfair for men who have served a long time in the trenches to be expected to pay their own transportation expenses when returning to Canada on furlough, we respectfully submit that when- ever deemed expedient by the military authorities men who have served over one year at the front, and have families dependent upon them, be permitted to return to their loved ones on furlough for three months, the Government paying the expenses in connection with the trip. A sergeant and a sergeant-major of the Canadian Engineers visited me in Winnipeg. These men were left practically destitute through having to pay their own fare. They came home without a cent to give to their family; they wanted to bring little presents for their children, but they could not do so; they wanted to become members of our association, but they did not have the wherewithal to do it. Of course, the boys saw to that, and we gave them membership all right. The point I want to bring out is that we think that, if a man went to the front in August, 1914, and has remained in the trenches there fighting, and has been lucky enough to get through alive, it is very hard to think that he should have to pay his fare in order to get home, and not have five cents in his pocket when he arrives or a present for his little children. I think that is a thing that should be taken up. K the Government knew the facts, and if the case was properly put before them, I do not think they would allow such a state of affairs to continue. Mr. Bennett : I had a case such as you mention. I am advised that questions of that kind are entirely in the hands of the Commander in Chief, and leave is not obtainable, because he cannot afford to spare the men. Do you know anything about that? Sergt. Hay: As regards leave, when a man has been out since August, 1914, his rank counts for coming home. An officer comes first, then N.C.O.'s and so on down the ranks. Headquarters are really the people who are responsible for that. Mr. Bennett: Military Headquarters? Sergt. Hay : Yes. Mr. Bennett : That is what they told me. The Chairman: Thank you, Sergt. Hay. Now, we shall hear suggestions with respect to the pay department from Mr. Tippett of New Brunswick. Mr. S. C. Tippett: Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I submit the following reso- lution. (Beads) While this committee recognizes the magnitude of the task undertaken by the various branches of the Paymaster-general's Department, and hesitate to bring this complaint, yet we have a responsibility to those who are unable to be here on their own behalf. [Mr. C. S. Tippett] 1212 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS We respectfully submit: That arrangements be perfected for expediting the work of the several branches, so that the long delays experienced now may be eliminated, and a more satisfactory method of adjusting soldiers', and their dependents' pay accounts be evolved. The Chairman: The resolution regarding the "Last Post Fund" will be sub- mitted by Sergt.-Major Stafford of British Columbia. Sergt.-Major H. E. Stafford: (Eeads) Eesolution re " Last-Post " Fund. The indifference with which people of all times have accepted the services of those who fought for their liberties, and permitted them to sink in oblivion, reflects very gravely upon the ingratitude of hiimanity. To provide honour- able burial for a soldier or sailor who has faithfully served his country should not be left to the chance generosity of the individual. It is a duty which should take precedence of all others. To honour and protect in death, seems but a small return to him who has protected the Nation's honour in life. Having in mind the above sentiment expressed by one of Canada's leading citizens, we the Executive Committee of the Great War Veterans Association desire to call the attention of the Government to the lack of any provision exist- ing covering suitable burial of those who have served in the wars of the Empire, and believing that this is a matter in which the Federal Government should act, we respectfully request: (1) That all veterans who have served with the forces of Great Britain or her Allies in the present great war, or served with Britain in other previous wars, be accorded a military, or semi-military funeral, when it is possible to make such an arrangement; and that when the deceased leaves no funds for his burial, the Federal Government shall meet the cost of decent interment. (2) That National Military cemeteries be established, or arrangements made for military plots in established eemeteries where veterans may be laid to rest, when no other suitable place is available. (3) That the Government of the Dominion of Canada absorb and undertake the work at present being carried on by the "Last Post Imperial Naval and Military Contingency Fund" of Montreal, since we feel it is not a matter for private or public pliilanthrophy, but a duty that belongs to the State he or she The Chairman: We have still a few minutes before our appointment with the Minister of Finance and other Ministers. Captain Finn, of Saskatchewan, will now submit the resolution on the alien question, and will be followed by Mr. Irwin of Alberta. Captain Finn: We beg to point out that a new and serious situation has arisen, more especially in Western Canada, owing to the effect of the Great War. While a great number of English-speaking citizens have joined the C.E.F., the majority of the foreign born have remained behind, and we believe are in the majority, that will seriously impair the rights of those who have done their duty in defence of the Empire. The Great War Veterans view with alarm the number of alien citizens, many from enemy countries, who have within the last few years, and until quite recently been permitted to take up land under the present homestead regulations; more especially as no attempt or restrictions have been made to compel or induce the foreign settler, or his descen- dants to adopt the English language. In many districts we are aware that the native RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1213 language of foreign settlers, including Germans, Austrians and Ruthenians are being taught to-day to the detriment of the Dominion. It is a well known fact that all foreign born citizens are amenable to authority, the life which they have been accustomed to in their native land having eminently fitted them to this. This being so, we suggest that the Dominion Government, prior to the issue of naturalization papers to aliens, make as a condition of citizens.hip that the applicant shall qualify himself by being able to read and write in the English language. We respectfully bring to the notice of the Dominion Government the need, par- ticularly in the West of a National Schooh We beg to point out to the Dominion Government that the English speaking citizens of the Western provinces, who are now engaged by the Dominion Govern- ment on active service, have been discriminated against in the matter of Parliamentary representation, to the detriment of Western Canada and the Dominion as a whole. These matters are respectfully submitted to the Dominion Goverment, in order that a satisfactory solution of the Alien question may be sought without delay. Mr. Bennett : By " Parliamentary representation," in your resolution you mean in the Legislature? Mr. Irwin: Well, parliamentary representation as it affects the western pro- vinces, more especially Saskatchewan and Alberta. Mr. Bennett : You know that under the now law the provision is that there shall be five years' residence, and that there must be a working knowledge of English or French in order to get naturalization. Mr. Irwin: That has probably been a very recent order, but I know for a fact that particularly in Saskatchewan, up to a very few weeks ago, the same old game is going on in view of the election that is to take place within the next few weeks. I have this to say Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, that this is a very live question in the west. In previous years I had no ^eat objection to civilizing a few of these foreigners, but T claim that the returned man is a reformed man, and I am an example of this reform- ation, a horrible sample perhaps, but I may say that I have civilized quite a number of them. I have naturalized a few of them to the benefit of the country and living in that country you have the right of every British citizen to protest and the rights of a British citizen are very dear to me; I have fought in, not one campaign, but several, j\nd I am good for several more yet if they only come quickly, — but this alien question has got to be a very big question in Saskatchewan, Alberta and ^fanitoba. because cf the absence of so many of our men at the front, and the Government will have to deal with it speedily. They will have to take into serious consideration the solution of that problem, and we deem it right and fair that we should bring it to your notice pnd place before you our position in regard to that matter. We are not a political body, we do not intend to take any part in politics, we are non-partisan, but where such circumstances interfere with the right of those who have gone overseas then we object, we protest, and we will protest to both parties, and we will fight the one that is antagonistic to us on this question. Mr. Bennett : Inasmuch as you and I come from the same province, but are not of the same political faith, you might tell these gentlemen what you think about this alien question. They think, sometimes, that I am distorting the fact^ and that as politi- cians we are apt to exaggerate the true conditions. Under the old law which is in force yet with respect to those who came into the province prior to 1914 all that was necessary to naturalize these foreigners was to take around a piece of paper and have them sign it before a justice of the peace and sometimes they did not know what it really was. Mr. Irwin : I will give you an illustration of the way it was done, it is not for the record, but Mr. Bennett's statement is practically correct. I forgot to mention one thing; I believe that recently the Government received a deputation from the 1214 . SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETUR:S'ED SOLDIERS Mennouite settlers who came down to protest against National Service, and they promised the Dominion Govermnent that in consideration of being permitted to remain in Canada, and not be required to bear arms, as it was against their faith to do so; they said they were willing to pay any taxes wJiatever to show their appreciation. Now, in the province of Saskatchewan, the Patriotic Fund was placed at one mill en the dollar on all familands and other property. Now in certain townships in- habited by these German Mennonites, during the last six months, they have reduced their assessment 25 per cent, in order to escape the payment of this tax. I have ample evidence which I can produce when necessary, to sustain this statement. These are the men who came down here within the last six months, demanding that they should be released from National Service and declared they would be glad to pay in any taxes to the Patriotic Fund, and then within six months they have endeavoured to avoid the tax by reducing the assessment on their property, and they have even attempted a second time to do so. Mr. Bennett: They sent me a cheque for $5,500 the week before last to he used for the oi-phans. The Chairman : We have, on many occasions received generous contributions from the Mennonites in the four western provinces. I cannot say, speaking from memory what these contributions will aggregate, but I think it will be $10,000. Hon. Mr. Murphy: Are you aware that the Mennonites were brought to this country under a written agreement that they should be exempt from military service? Mr. Irwin: That is possible, sir, I am aware of that fact. I might point out that this is a local case; entirely local in the province of Saskatchewan. The Mennon- ites in Manitoba are quite a different proposition, the same may be said with regard to the Mennonites of Alberta, and some of them in Saskatchewan, they are good patriotic people and good citizens. Mr. N. F. E. Knight: Might I ask a question for information, as I have just heard something I did not know about. Do I understand that people were induced to come to Canada under an arrangement that they were to be exempt from performing a national duty and yet that no arrangement was made with them depriving them of their franchise? Do I understand that an arrangement was made to that effect? Mr. MiDDLEBRO : It is in accordance with the provisions of the Militia Act which says that all persons having conscientious scruples are exempt from military service. Mr. Bennett : An Order in Council was passed embodying the provisions of the Militia Act when these men came from Russia fifty years ago. J\rr. Knight : Is that binding with regard to their children too ? Mr. Bennett: The Statute is bindiiig with regard to their children if they are of the same belief. The same provision exists in the Compulsory Service Act in England. It does not apply to the Mennonites alone, but there are Quakers and other people that hold that belief. Mr. MiDDLEBRO : The same provision is made in the United States iVct, and in the New Zealand Act. Sir Edmard Kemp : There are people of other belief, besides the Mennonites who are exempt from Military Service. The Chairman: There is one question I would like to ask Captain Macpherson; as I understand it the memorandum you have presented to the Committee is in favour of equal pensions for all classes. Captain Macpherson: Yes. The CiiAniJiAN: What have you to say in resi^ect of the fact that many officers have gone overseas on the understanding that the pensions will be according to rank and in accordance with the existing scale — RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1215 Mr. MiDDLEBKO: Under a contract, virtually. The Chairman : Have you considered that phase of the question, and if so what have you to say with regard to it? Captain Macpheksox : In taking up the question of equalization of pensions, and following up the resolution that was passed at the recent Dominion Convention in Winnipeg, whereby it was represented that our army being a citizens' army and that men are serving in the ranks whose earning capacity, prior to the war, was quite as large as the officers iinder whom they are serving, that the pension should be given on the basis of the man's disability, and of his real suffering. The pension is given because of the suffering of the man from his wounds and the private suffers in that respect equally as much as the officer. It is a different proposition from what it would be in the case of men serving in the permanent force where men have to put in years in the service in earning their promotion. The CiiAiR^iAN : Supposing, however, for the sal^e of argument, that the Govern- ment and this Committee are face to face with the fact in respect to 12,000 officers that they have enlisted and gone forward on the understanding that their pensions would be graded on a scale higher than those of the private. Capt'. Macpiikkson : I would suggest, sir, that a clause be put in such as they have in the British scheme, that if any man can show the Pensions Board that with his pension, and with his remaining earning power, he is not receiving an amount equal to his pre-war earnings, that that pension could be supplemented. Mr. NiCKLE : If you take that position, you get away altogether from your resolu- tion, which says that the disability shall be the only determining factor. Capt. Macpherson : The matter of working pay — !Mr. Nickle: Are you not then driven into this position — are you taking the position that the returned soldier shall be compensated in respect to the loss he, as an individual, suffers as a citizen of the state. Capt. Macpherson: That would apply to my own rank. Mr. NiCKLE: Which line of argument am I supposed to take? - Capt. Macpherson : Really the pre-war earning, is, in my opinion, the proper one, but I do not think it is practicable. That is why I say that the only fair way is to base the pension on the living condition. Mr. NiCKLE : You and I then reach practically the same conclusion. I have given some attention to this subject. I find myself in this dilemma: After war was declared, a fixed scale of pensions was brought in which took effect on September 1, 1914, which made a very great distinction between officers and men. I am not taking into consideration now whether or not that distinction was wise. Ours was a volunteer army, and hundreds of men enlisted believing they would get a certain pension, and some enlisted as officers, otherwise they might not have gone. I am confronted with the argument that these men have a vested right, and, while we may raise the i)ensioD of the lower ranks, there is a contractual relation between Canada and these men, and we have no right to rob them. How can I answer that? Capt. Macpherson: That has puzzled me. Mr. NiCKLE : How can I answer it? Capt. Macpherson: You must remember that faith was broken with regard to working pay. Mr. NiCKLE : Are we justified in departing from a national obligation? Mr. ;Middlebro: What do you mean by working pay? Capt. Macpherson : Men went overseas in the ranks, and they were given^ to understand that they would receive 50 cents to $1 per day extra duty pay as working pay. [Capt. K. C. Macpherson.] 1216 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Mr. Bennett: Having regard to the profession they followed. Capt. Macphersox: After having been over there in January, 1916, that working pay was cut off. The Chairman : They were given the option to go home. Mr. NiCKLE : They were to get the working pay up to the time they were given the option either of taking it or returning. Mr. Shanahan: Certain matters I have been assured of Mr.-NiCKLE: Will you please answer the question. Mr. Shanahan: This has a little to do with it: to show how much these guar- antees may be observed the men, as a matter of fact, were in complete ignorance for several months after this working pay had been stopped that such was the case. Mr. Nickle; Are you and I agreed, Captain Macpherson, that as far as possible a national obligation should be respected? Capt. Macpherson: Undoubtedly, as far as possible. The Chairman : JSTow, gentlemen, we have an appointment with the Minister at twelve o'clock. I may say we very much appreciate your coming here, and the oppor- tunity we had to hear your views. Perhaps before we dismiss the Minister of Militia would say just a word to us, since at the present time he is the representative of the Government at this gathering. Sir Edward Kemp : Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I think I voice the sentiments of the committee — I certainly voice my own — when I say that we are under a debt of gratitude to you for coming here and giving us all the information which you have placed before us this morning. You have come from distant parts of the country, and I feel the more grateful, and your representations in my estimation carry more weight, because of the fact that you have put them in such a sincere and moderate way. This is only what we would expect from men who, like yourselves, have faced the dangers of the trenches. You have brought before the committee and before the Government very import- ant matters. The representations which you have made will be of great benefit in assisting us in. working out these difficulties. You have been frank with us, and I want to be frank with you, and tell you this: we are just as sincere as you are in trying to overcome all the difficulties and obstacles which present themselves from time to time. There are many of us who have engaged in affairs in connection with the war since it commenced who have tried to do the best we could, as you tried to do the best you could when you were striving for your country in the trenches. We might not have gone the length of submitting ourselves to all the hard work we have done, had it not been work in connection with the war. But we are prepared to go on, and listen to every representation, and give it the most careful and sympathetic consideration. There are some matters that are very important. The resolution which you placed before the committee, and which you feel very strongly upon, in reference to selective military conscription, or selective military service, is not a matter upon which I am prepared to say anything this morning more than has been said by the Prime Minister for the Government, which has expressed itself in no indefinite terms on the matter. I can readily understand that men who have 300,000 or 400,000 comrades who have been willing to sacrifice their lives, who have been willing to offer the supreme sacrifice, and families that have given one, two, three, four, five and, perhaps, six sons to this cause, feel very strongly when they go up and down the streets, and when they come across a family of four or five rugged, healthy boys, none of whom have enlisted. There is something very unfair about that, and I can readily understand how this RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1217 agitation in Canada has come about because of that and other conditions of the same character; and I sympathize with you in the very strong representations you have made. I thought when I looked over this agenda that I might refer to two or three items on it. But the time is about up, and we have to go and see the Finance Min- ister. I will say in a blanket sort of way that we will consider the whole agenda. So far as I am concerned, and the department is co^icerned, you can always feel that you have sympathy there, and we shall always be glad to hear from you, and every- thing you write us about and say to us will always have consideration and we shall always try and give you a decent answer. Committee adjourned. MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS. HorsE OF Commons^ Ottawa, Committee Koom 301, Wednesday, May 30, 1917. The Committee met at 10 o'clock a.m., the Chairman, Sir Herbert Ames, presiding, ^lembers Present: Sir Herbert Ames, Chairman, Mr. R. B. Bennett, Hon. Charles Marcil, Mr. F. B. McCurdy, Mr. W. S. ^^liddlebro, Hon. Charles .Alurphy, :Mr. Duncan Ross, and Mr. Donald Sutherland. The Committee proceeded to the consideration of evidence given by Mr. Charles W. Peterson, Secretary of the National Service Board of Canada respecting Cards sent to the Canadian Overseas Forces, copy of which was filled by the witness;- also by Major C. M. Ingall, General Auditor and Chief Inspector, Accounts and Records Branch of the Department of Militia, respecting separation allowances and assigned The attention of the Committee was then directed to the contents of an editorial which appeared in the Toronto Globe of 29th May. reflecting upon the treatment which the returned soldier received on arrival in Canada and subsequently in the Military Hospitals. The Clerk of the Coirmiittee was instructed to write to the Editor and to ask him for the names and addresses of the three returned soldiers alluded to, to enable the Committee to further inquire into their complaints, and invite the Editor to appear before the Committee and give evidence in connection with the statements as set forth in the second paragraph of the editorial. The Committee then adjourned until Tuesday, June 5, at 10 o'clock a.m. V. CLOUTIER, Clerk of the Committee. House of Commons Chamber. Tuesday, June 6, 1917. The Committee met at 10 o'clock a.m., the Chairman, Sir Herbert Ames, presiding. Present : Sir Herbert Ames, Chairman ; Brigadier-General Mason of the Senate Committee, Sir Edward Kemp, Minister of Militia, ^fr. R. B. Bennett, Hon. Charles Marcil, Mr. F. B. McCurdy, Mr. W.S. Middlebro, Hon. Charles Murphy, Mr. W. F. Nickle, Mr. Duncan Ross, and Mr. Donald Sutherland. In attendance:' The Delegates of the Great War Veterans Association of Canada (eleven in all), also Col. Arthur ^lignault, Montreal, Major J. L. Todd of the Board of Pension Commissioners for Canada, Air. E. H. Scammell of the ^Military Hospitals Commission, and Mr. T. B. Kidner, Vocational Secretary, Military Hospitals Commsision. PROCEEDINGS : The Chairman delivered a short address outlining the purposes of the present meeting, after which Major W. P. Purney, President of the Great War Veterans Asosciation of Canada addressed the Committee on the Aims and Purpose? of the Association. The Committee then proceeded to the consideration of Resolutions presented by the Officers and members of the Association as hereunder set forth: — 1220 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS RESOLUTIONS : Legislation Re Compulsory Military Service, by Sgt. Major J. Robinson (D.C.M.) of Vancouver. Demobilization, by Mr. Norman Knight. Recommendations Re Pensions, by Captain Macpherson and Mr. J. J. Shanalian. Land Settlement, by Messrs. I. Finn and W. Irwin. Functional Training and the Amar System of Re-education by Major J. R. Anderson and Col. A. Mignault. Orphan Children and Transportation Expenses of Men on Furlough, by Mr. A. C. Hay. Pay Departments, by Mr. C. S. Tippett. " Last Post " Fund, by Mr. H. E. Stafford. Alien Question and Representation, Foreign Settlers and Language by Messrs. I. Finn and W. Irwin. The Chairman then called upon the Honourable Sir Edward Kemp, Minister of Militia who six)ke on behalf of the Government, stated that the representations made by the Officers and members of the Great War Veterans Association of Canada this iviorning would be given most earnest consideration. (See also Minutes of Proceed- iugB.) The meeting then adjourned to enable the Delegates and Members of the Com- mittee to be at Sir Thomas White's Office at 12.15 o'clock. V. CLOUTIER. Clerh of the Committee. House of CoisnioNS, Room 301, June 12, 1917. The Committee met at 4 o'clock, p.m., the Chairman, Sir Herbert Ames, pre- siding. Members present : Sir Herbert Ames, Chairman ; Mr. R. B. Bennett, Hon. Charles Marcil, Mr. F. B. McCurdy, Mr. W. S. Middlebro, Mr. F. F. Pardee, Mr. Duncan Ross, and Mr. Donald Sutherland. The Chairmajj: As requested by the Committee, the Clerk wrote to the Toronto Globe, asking for the names and addresses of certain returned soldiers respecting whom editorial comment was made by that newspaper, on May 29. The following reply has been received: (Reads) The Globe, Toronto, June 1. 1917. Mr. V. Cloutiiie-r, Clerk, Committee on Returned Soldiers, Ottawa. Dear Sir, — In reply to your letter of jNFay 30, I beg to state that the Gloh^ is not in a position to give you the names of the three men to whom reference RECEPTION, TREATMEXr AXD RE-EDUCATION 1221 cized by the Glohe is not limited by any means to tlieir three cases. Their state of financial incompetency is typical of many cases, and it would be very mis- leading to suppose that this condition was confined to three men. Furthermore, the unfortunate delays which have been experienced by returned soldiers in securing their regular pay are not a matter of guarded secrecy. Stories such as- the Glohe referred to have been appearing for weeks in much greater detail in other Toronto pai>ers. All that we can do, therefore, is to refer you to the Globe's source of information in regard to the three cases in question, namely. The Soldiers' Aid Commission, 116 College St. West, Toronto. We understand that at the same office you may also get information regarding the Ix)ndou soldier, who received no pay for twenty-two months, altliough legally entitled to the same, and whose case was only settled through the efforts of that Com- mission. Yours very truly. The Glohe. That is not very satisfactory. Now, there is a considerable amount of correspondence not all of which it is necessary or desirable to present to the Committee. I have a telegram from Major W. P. Purney, President of the Great War Veterans Association, which reads as follows : Halifax, ^.S., June 11. Sir Herbert Ames^ Chairman Select Parliamentary Committee Ketumed Soldiers, Ottawa. Ee our resolution on department of demobilization large majority of our committee realize the difficulty and impracticability of separating proposed new department from military control or supervision and now amend our requests in this matter to the extent of eliminating our demands fur entire separation from militarv control. W. P. PURNEY, Pres. Great War Veterans Assn. I received also a letter from ^lajor Purney protesting very strongly against the action on the part of the Government in declining to give the three months' bonus paid to civil employees of the Federal and Provincial Government who on discharge are privileged to return to their former positions in the Government service. The letter is as follows : (Eeads) Ris.sKiJ. Hotel, Ottawa, Canada, June S. I'.UT. Sir Herbert A>rES And Members of Select Parliamentary Committco on Returned Soldiers, House of Commons. Gentlemen-, — As the majority of the E.xecutive Committee of the G.W.V.A. of Canada will be unable to appear before you at your next Session, I am taking this opportunity of expressing the imanimoiis opinion of our Committee in the matter of withholding from the Government employees who are returned soldiers, the three months pay and allowances granted returned soldiers after six months service overseas. We strongly protest against such action on the part of the Government con- sidering the same a breach of faith. It will be found that many men in Govern- ment employ have made financial engagements on the strength of the Order in Council granting such pay. etc., and this pnrt revoeation of the same will have a most embarrassing effect. 1222 .SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURN ED SOLDIERS We consider it unjust and unfair. All men, Government employees or others, having once been led to expect this payment mentioned, naturally will never understand how such a change as contemplated, could be justly made, and must be considered as I state above, a breach of faith, and could never be con- vinced to the contrary. I wisli to assure that this class has and will have the strongest sympathy and support of all their comrades in this matter, and I would strongly urge that you recommend that no distinction be made as contemplated. This is written in great haste on the eve of my departure, but nevertheless, is our earnest opinion and conviction, and I would therefore respectfully request that you give our request your most serious consideration. Respectfully, (Sgd.) W. P. PURNEY, President G. W. T. A. of Canada. There arc a number of individual emendations to the ■evidence that have been sent in. There are three cases, those of Trudel, Whitton and Hart where the evidence of Major Todd was not quite complete, and where the Pensions Board undertook to attend further to the matter. They have sent their final findings in these cases, which are summarized as' follows : 8610, Pte. Trudel: Since his appeal against the decision of the Pension Board, he was examined by specialists. After considering the specialists' reports the Board was of opinion that the result of the special examination did not prove the existence of any disability necessitating change in the amount of his pension; but in order to prevent any injustice he is to be medically re- examined in June. 57001, Sgt. Maj. Whitton: This complaint was considered by the Board, and it was decided that the pension he is receiving, $13i0 per annum, is in ac- cordance with his described disability. 7T39'6, Pte H. W. Hart : This man is still in receipt of $16 pension per month, and will continue to receive that amount until March, 1918, when he will be requested to undergo a further medical examination and his compensation will be continued, in accordance with the pensionability then present in him. I have a letter which the members of the Committee should read, I think, in reference to the quarantine regulations for infected people coming from the other side. It is written by Dr. Montizambert, the Director General of Public Health. I have also a letter from Mr. Kenneth Archibald, the legal adviser, I understand, of the Pensions Board, regarding tuberculosis and venereal diseases. Mr. McCurdy: What does Dr. Montizambert say? The Chairmax : The last clause of his letter reads : It would seem very desirable, however, that in the case of returned soldiers found affected by these diseases, their segregation should be insisted upon until such period as they should cease to be a menace to others. Mr. Archibald points out that the provinces have full control of matters like tuber- culosis. The Federal authority extends to quarantine, leprosy, and the " Public Works Health Act." He states in his letter " the provinces have full control with regard to public health in the province in so far as the health of one province does not affect the Dominion as a whole." He also points out that "at the present time there is a Director General of Public Health connected with the Department of Agriculture." I have also a rather interesting disquisition by Mr. W^m. Banks of Toronto, on flip wVinlp onKioot r\f i.Qfii^,i^rl c-^1^;^«., ,^1,;«1, T ,.• _J i-. T__ T. -j? j.!. _ n -^i . RECEPTION', TREATMEST AND RE-EDUCATION 1223 Now, gentlemen, we have with us General Fotheringham, who has seen medical service of a very remarkable character at the front, and who was brought back here to be of assistance in dealing with the problems that the Government is confronted with here. General Fotheringham has been here, I understand, a sufficient time to be fairly well seized of the situation in Canada, and I am going to ask him to take the witness box. EVIDENCE. General John Tayluh Fi)T1iki{in«:ham^ called, sworn and examined: By the Chairman: Q. What position do you occupy ? — A. My rank is Surgeon General, and my pre- sent appointment is that of Director of Medical Services, Invalids. Q. When did you return to Canada? — A. On the 23rd day of April last. Q. When did you take up your duties as Surgeon General of Invalids? — A. I reported for duty on the 1st day of May. Q. Would you kindly tell this Committee what are your impressions and opinions? I think probably the best way would be to make your own statement regarding the situation as you find it here. I may say, for your guidance, that this Committee have found themselves face to face with a situation which does not appear to be all that is desired, namely, a situation of divided authority; and they have been taking evi- dence, much of which is more or less conflicting, and they would be very glad to hear what you have to say on the situation as you find it? — A. Well, sir, I will make it just as brief as I can. Q. You need not hurry; take all the time you want? — A. I should like first to be questioned later on, if I might. In the first place I found, on coming back, that in my judgment the civilian organization which was founded as the Military Hospitals Commission, although at the time necessary, in my judgment, and. further, still neces- sary, had reached a point at which a re-definition of its functions by the Government was necessary. Looking at it purely from the point of view of the medical attend- ants, there is no doubt in my mind that serious confusion exists in the country. Q. Serious what? — A. Confusion in authority, with, of course, resulting confu- sion elsewhere. The net result is that there are two groups of military invalids in this country. One is the group which becomes invalids prior to going overseas. They are, in the main with certain exceptions in the care of the C.A.^r.C, that is, in the care of the Militia Department. These, however, who come back from overseas as inva- lids are in another group and inidor other control. My judgment is that that state of affairs cannot conduce to efficiency. The remedy, if I have said enough about that is, I think that there should be at once a single control established, and I have no doubt in my own mind that the proper authority to take over the military patients is the military organization that we have provided, namely, the ^fedical Service of the Militia Department — so long as they remain soldiers. Q. Does it seem to you that there is no great similarity between the soldier on his way to the front or who is in training, and the soldier who is on his way back from the front, who has served his bit, and who is anxious to get back into civilian life? — A. For the purpose of medical treatment there is no ditTerence between them. Q. Does not the ultimate goal to which these two men are working alter the situation materially; in the one case the man is endeavouring to become a soldier, and in the other case, you have a soldier who is endeavouring to become a civilian? — A. No, it does not alter the machinery at all, by which that end may be obtained. There are two sets or groups of duties which the Medical Service in every army has to discharge; the one group with which they have to deal is that of the outgoing tide of men — [Surgeon-General John T. Fotheringham.] 1224 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—nETVRN ED SOLDIERS The Chairman : The selection and examination, etc. ? The Witness •: The selection and examining of them, the classification and their care during training. By the Chairman: Q. There are very few surgical cases among them, I suppose? — A. There were more at the outset, on account of the recruiting regulations, than there are now. Q. And now their complaints are very largely due to their own indiscretion, are they? — A. I think that is rather strong — a great deal of it is, but a great deal of it is not. Then with respect to the incoming tide of men, whether sick or not, having regard to the fact that their pensionability, is to be determined, the duties of the Medical Service consist largely in caring for those who are sick, and advising so as to protect the country later from unfounded claims for pensions. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. You think that because that Army Medical Corps has been in charge of a man from the time he goes overseas until he comes back here, therefore they would have greater knowledge about his right to a pension than any other man or medical or- ganization ?— A. I do indeed; there is no doubt about it that the experience which the medical officer acquires by contact with the man for a long period of time gives him a better knowledge of that man's condition. I could quote instances, a number of them, to prove that assertion. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. You think the soldiers should be under the control of the Army Medical Corps from the time they enlist to the time of their pension or discharge? — A. Until they return to duty or are discharged. By the Chairman: Q. Do you think that the discipline should be the same for the man on his return here as if be were on duty in France ?^A. Unfortunately it is not the siame in thia country as elsewhere. Q. Do you think it ought to be? — A. I do indeed, sir. Q. Do you think it should be the same as it is in France? — A. As in France and England, yes sir. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Do you know whether, in the British and in the French Army, that discipline is maintained until the soldier is discharged? — A. Yes, always; but of course you understand that the discipline in the hospital where the men are ill, is not of the same stern type as it is when they are with their corps, but with regard to infractions of the rules there is absolute control. By the Chairman: Q. What I meant by my question was would it not seem to you that a gradual adaption to civilian conditions is preferable to maintaining a strict military discipline up to the very day of a man's discharge? — A. I do not want to be understood as advo- cating that a man should be under the same stiif discipline when in the hospital as he is when with his battalion, 'but I do say that in the hospitals there is a better dis- cipline, and it is lived up to in France and in Britain better than it is here. Q. Is that discipline in a code of regulations? — ^A. Yes. Q. So that there is an established system of rules and regulations that apply to men in hospitals prior to discharge? — A. Yes, sir, in the hospital regulations. I can submit a list of those regulations if you like, I brought one with me. [Surgeon-General John T. Fotheringham.l RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDL CATION 1225 Q. I think you had better phice on file a list of military regulations in force with respect to men under hospital treatment? — A. Yes. Q. In hospital for discharge?— A. For treatment, either for return to duty or for discharge. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Having regard to the matter from the standpoint of the individual soldier, do you. General Fothcringham, think the system is for his welfare;; — A. I do, very much so, sir. I am prepared to state that if the sort of discipline to which I am accustomed were enforced in our Canadian hospitals, — it is in force in hospitals everywhere ex- cept in Canada — that is in force at Lemnos, in Greece — I have not been there myself but I know the units that are there — and in France and Britain, the time which the soldiers stay in the hospitals is very much reduced; and speaking of some instances that have come under my notice here, I am satisfied that it could be reduced by a con- siderable period. Q. What are some of the ill-effects from lack of discipline of which you complain ? — A. The first one is discontent on the part of the soldier himself. Q. Are there others? — A. The next one is that coming back to the atmosphere, such as that which obtains in Canada where the public is not very well informed and in a hysterical state with regard to the men they are very much more ai)t to get out of hand, and in that way damage themselves, many of them. ])artieular]y tuberculosis cases and men with any addiction to drink. By the Chairman : Q. Would you not be making unnecessary discipline for the well-intentioned man for the purpose of getting after the few men who are more or less undisciplined^ — A. No, sir; the well-intentioned man never finds these regulations irksome. Q. We were led to believe by some of the testimony given before this Committee, particularly in ^lontreal and Toronto, that the men did find the discipline irksome, and thought that it was unnecessary in the military hospitals? — A. Some men would say so, yes, but those very men would not say so in Britain or in France. Of course there is a diflference between the man who is sick in bed and the man who is loafing, unemployed, about * convalescent home. The outlook of the two men is different. The Chairman: Naturally the man who is able to get about would be different from the man who is sick in bed. By lion. Mr. 'Marcil: Q. The man in hospital in France it is presumed will return to the trenches, while the man in hospital in Canada is supposed to be through with his military dut^'. Does that not make any difference? — A. No. Q. I thoug-ht that only those men who were militarily unfit were sent back to Canada? — A. A man is not sent back unless he is unfit for further military service, or is in need of six months' medical treatment. Q. Some of those who have been sent back to Canada do return to the other side? — A. Yes, but there are not enough of them going, in mj' judgment. Q. Have you any figures as to the number who have gone back after medical treatment here? — A. I have not, sir. By Mr Sutherland: Q. Do you think more returned soldiers could bo cured so that they would be able to go back? — A. Yes. Q. Would that result be obtained by better discipline? — A. Discipline would help, but of course that would only be a contributing factor. [Surgeon-General John T. Fotheringham.] 1226 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS By Air. Middlehro: Q. We have had a good deal of evidence before the Committee showing that the system adopted by France is probably the most progressive and up to date? — A. Yes. Q. Can you tell me whether or not, under that system, the Army Medical Corps ot France has the control such as you suggested a moment ago it would be better to have in Canada until the returned soldier is discharged? — A. I have visited none of the French hospitals. I was always at the Front with the army in the field; but I am quite prepared to say now that the French do maintain a military discipline and control in their institutions. The reason, gentlemen, is this: There is no better known docu- ment in international law than the Geneva Convention. That was arrived at in 1864, and in 1906 it was revised and re-ratified by no less than 35 of the world's Powers. Jijgrained in every line of that document is the principle that military patients shall remain under control, and in Article 10 of that document it expressly states, among others, the conditions by which civil assistance may be had in military hospitals. I brought a copy of the Geneva Convention with me, and I will read the exact words. (Beads) : " The personnel " — This is Article 10, " of voluntary aid societies which are recognized and authorized by theii Government, who may be employed in the Medical Units and establishments of armies, is placed on the same footing as the personnel referred to in the preceding article." That is the regular military personnel. " Provided always that the first mentioned personnel shall be subject to military law and regulations." They not only take for granted that the soldier himself will be, but they do not admit ( ivilian societies to care for the military sick or wounded except, under the condition that they also shall be under military law and regulations. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. What is the Geneva Convention the result of? — A. It is the result of the self- denying efforts of a Swiss civilian — I am sorry his name has escaf)ed me — who was so horrified by what he saw after the Battle of Solferino that he started a campaign in Furope, much the same as the movement which Howard started in England for the reforming of prisons, and the result of his labours was that in 186-t the first Conven- tion was held and the first agreement drawn up. By the Chairman : Q. That is a mutual agreement for the care of wounded soldiers? — A. An agree- ment for the neutralizing of the personnel and a large part of the material which has to do with the care of the military sick and wounded. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. The Geneva Convention is an agreement between the different Powers is it not? — A. It is an International agreement to which 35 Powers subecribed in 1906, subject to ratification by their Governments, and 27 of the 35 Powers whose representa- tives signed the convention in 1906 had ratified it by the end of March, 1911. Great Britain ratified the convention the next year, on the 16th April, 1907. By Hon Mr. Marcil: Q. Can Great Britain bind Canada in a matter of that kind? — A. Yes, sir. To meetings of the powers held at the Hague for that purpose, only the sovereign powers are admitted, and Canada in this respect is not a sovereign power. I do not at the RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1227 moment, remember the name of Canada's representative at the meeting, but I believe that Canada was represented on the British delegation. Q. Do I understand you to say that the results arrived at in the Geneva Conven- tion are a concensus of the opinion of all the Powers that were a party to it ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Is it the result of their accumulated experience? — A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Middlebro : Q. It was under the Geneva Convention that the Red Cross was supposed to be neutral and inviolate by all nations in time of war? That was one of the provisions adopted? — A. Yes, sir. I only quott>d the article in question from the Geneva Conven- tion to show you the trend of opinion in most of the armies in the world. The proposal by any country to hand over its sick and wounded to a civilian organization is a completely new idea. 1 am not disputing the power of the Government of Canada to do such a thing if it were so decided by higher authority, but if I were asked for my opinion I would say that in my judgmenrt; it would be an experiment of a most pronounced kind. By the Chairman: Q. Would there be any fundamental difficulty in the creation of a department such as has been suggested, and in seconding Army Medical Corps Officers, if necessary, for that work, to the new department ?— A. I have tliought that over very carefully, and I think, sir, that it would be the duty of the Medical Service to co-operate in every way with such an organization, we would have to do it in this way : We would give our officers and nursing sisters leave for civil employment with the Military Hospitals Commission. ' That would mean that they would appear in plain clothes as civilian physicians, surgeons and nurses, and would be a.pix)inted, controlled and paid by the Military Hospitals Commission, and would be, while on leave from the ^ledical Service, off our strength, but not losing thoir seniority in the Militia List; their military' position would not be affected by their civilian employment. One main advantage of that would be that instances of indiscipline in the hospital would not be military crimes; they would not call for militarij- punishment but would be dealt with as the authorities of the hospitals saw fit. Q. Is the connection of the Army Medical Corps engaged in the care of invalids absolutely necessary with the Militia Department? — A. Yes, sir, absolutely. Q. You have a Department in war timo that is called upon to do the work of ten departments. Do you propose to divide that work somewhat so that the responsibility will not be quite so heavy upon one Department ? Is there any reason why the Army ^fedical Corps could not function just as well under a Minister who luid charge of the Medical Service, the Vocational Training and all the other activities which are working together for the comfort and training and help of the returned man? — A. Every reason sir. I cannot conceive of any ^Military Department carrying out its work under that scheme. That is the trouble now. A.<; a matter of fact tlie great bulk of the work whicb is 1 eing done for the ^lilitars- Hos]>itals Commission in its institutions is being done now by the Medical Service. The Medical Service officers who are going there cannot tell at present wiho their master is; they do not know whether their all^iiuice to-day is due to the A.D.M.S. of tlie District or not. If they serve in our part of the ^lilitary Hospitals which takes the sick before going overseas, there is no confusion about it. If their service lies in attending to those who go sick after going overseas and coming 1 iick, it is a different matter. Q. Of course, there are two separate hospitals completely separated, as a matter of fact? — A. These offices of the medical service, mostly, as I say, from the C.A.M.C., report not to the A.D.^I.S., and through him to the General Officer Commanding the District, but to a junior captain from the Army Service Corps, or some such officer, who is appointed to the command of the ^Military Hospitals Commission Command [Surgeon-General John T. Fotheringham.] 1228 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Unit. I can give you an example — I could give you many — but I vpill give one in a few words: a member of the Military Hospitals Commission told me the other day that in his city he had gone in as a member of the Commission to look through one of the hospitals. He found that, ten days before, the Canadian Red Cross had sent in a lot of supplies for the service of the hospital, which naturally went into the charge of the Quartermaster. Among these were a lot of back rests for the patients able to sit in bed upstairs. For ten days that quartermaster had refused to issue these although the medical officers asked for them, contending that he had not got an order to hand them over from the Major — I do not know to what branch of the service he belonged — wlio had command of the unit and who had his office in another part of the town. That kind of misconduct is utterly intolerable, and should be absolutely pre- Acnted by giving absolute control to the medical officer who should command the hospital. Furthermore nothing can be more subversive of| the proper control of the patients than the idea that the medical officers are incapable of issuing orders to the sergeants and corporals downstairs. Xo medical officers can maintain discipline under svch circumstances. Q. Do I understand that there is a conflict of authority between the Army Medi- cal Corps and the Military Hospitals Commission Command? — A. I would not say it has came into official notice, or use the word "conflict". Yet the situation is one in which acute conflict may arise at any moment, just as in the case I mentioned. I could give another example in another city. The medical officer responsible for the health and the care of the patients in one of the hospitals got an order one morning from the Infantry officer in command of the unit to send that afternoon forty patients by train to another hospital in the same District but in another town. Well, he could not; he could only send six, because the rest would have either had their consecutive course of treatment, or appointments for the treatments during the following suc- cessive days, r.udely broken up or they were not fit to go for medical reasons. When he reported these facts to the Commanding Officer, he was told that he was to carry out the order or to take the consequences. By Mr. Fardee: Q. What happened? — A. I cannot say. I think some went, I do not know how many. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Would you say that men went who should not have gone? — A. I do not know. Tf the order had been carried out, they certainly would. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Do you say that the officer in command was not a medical man? — A. He was the officer in charge of the M.H.C. Command who controls all the M.H.C. Hospitals in the District. Q. Was he in the Military Hospitals Commission Command? — A. Yes, he was the commanding officer of that unit. By Mr. Pardee: Q. He was not a member of the C.A.M.C. ? — A. No sir. Gentlemen, you under- stand that I am not here to quarrel or be cantankerous. I am only trying to point out to you why a single control — and that a military and medical one — is necessary if these men are going to be properly handled. Q. Let us follow that a little more: suppose that an order to move those forty men had been given by a C.A.M.C. man. The hospital that it would have been given to under your scheme would have been under the C.A.M.C. Is that right? — A. Yes. Q. I am just asking for the purpose of getting an explanation. Why would it be any different coming from a Military Hospitals Commission man who was the officer commanding to the officer in the hospital — where would the difference be in carrying RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDVCATION 1229 out a command that might have been given by the C.A.M.C. or the M.H.C. ?— A. Such a command would never have been given by a medical commanding officer. Q. The man who gave the order to move the forty patients wius not a medical man at all?— A, Not a medical man at all. I think he is a Militia officer, who saw service in France or England. Q. lie is a layman imdertaking to tell a medical man what to do. That is practically what it means? — A. Yes. Q. Now then, suppose that under the Military Hospitals Commission Command there were apix)inted medical men to say whether or not certain treatments should be given. Suppose he were the officer commanding the district in that regard ? — A. Yes. Q. Then, with the Military IloS'pitals Conmiission, with a medical man in charge, there would be no more difference whether the man in the hospital took his instructions from the man in charge of the district, if a medical man, than there would be if they both belonged to the C.A.M.C. Those would be parallel cases? — A. I am afraid I do not follow that question. Q. Perhaps I am not very clear, T Understand what I mean. Suppose there were in a Military District the ]\Iilifary Hospitals Commission in charge of that District? — A. You mean a command unit? Q. Yes ? — A. Then in charge of that, there is not a medical man, but a combatant officer ? Q. Yes. Suppose in that case it were all under the Military Hospitals Commis- sion, would there be any difference except in the way of discipline as between the Mili- tary Hospitals Commission and the C.A.M.C? — A. Except in the way of discipline? Q. Yes ? — A. Well, I am afraid I have not got that question yet. The point is that no such order would be issued, but that in all probability, as in the purely Military Hospitals, every day there would be laid on the desk of that official a list of all those who were fit to move, or fit to be discharged, and put in different categories. The A.D.M.S. of the District is there to do that under our system. - Q. Under the C.A.M.C. system?— A. Quite so. Q. The whole point about the argument is then, that this man undertook, without any medical advice whatever, to peremptorily order those men to be moved? — A. Yes. Q. That man should be in an insane asylum now. Any man who would peremp- torily demand that men should be moved say from Cobourg to Whitby — I do not care whether every man in the hospital is on a sick bed or not — would that not be an extreme case in any event? — A. It looks very extreme. Mr. Paroek : That man should be in jail anyway. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Was he sent to jail? — A. He is a well-meaning officer. There is a point I noted in a memorandum which I wotild like to quote if I may. The Chairman- : If there are any statements you would like to read, the Committee will give you all the time necessary. If there are any documents you would like to put on our record, they may be inserted. The Witness: Thank you very much. Sir Herbert. This memorandum will only take two or three moments to read. My first paragraph was this: (Reads) General Considerations — 1. As a result of our voluntary system and of the public attitude generally to all military matters the public mind with reference to the returned soldier is in a very ill informed and sensitive condition. It is forgotten that the returned invalid is still as much a soldier as before^he became a casualty, is in receipt of public pay and is maintained by the public through the Government; that the country has towards him certain contractual obliga- tions which end only with his fiiuil discharge from t.lie Service, and that therefore. Hospital conditions as regards treatment, discipline, and all that pertains to the [Surgeon-General John T. Fotheringham.] 1230 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS vocational training and repatriation of the man present problems whicli do not arise in civil life, and for these and similar reasons a system of medical care which is non-military is apt to be inefficient. By the Ohairman: Q. I vpish we were equally sure that the reverse were true. When you say that a system of medical care which is non-military is apt to be inefficient, I wish we were equally sure that a military systeni would be efficient? — A. I will refer to that later. Hon. Mr. McCurdy : I think it would be more satisfactory to let General Fother- ingham read his memorandum without interruption. The Witness: (Reads) 2. To this should be added the universal experience of all civilized armies, in all of which there has been provided a Medical Service for the purpose of discharging for the soldier duties which experience in all countries has sliown to be not well discharged by civil arrangements. There is no reason for supposing that Canada can afford to depart from estabiished and well understood methods proved effective b,y experience- 3. From the point of view of the patient it is an error to attempt to combine civil and military matters or to substitute civil for military control. The fact that the patient is still a soldier with the country's obligations to him unfulfilled must be borne in mind. For instance, he cannot be turned out of hospital for misconduct as in civil life, nor can he be asked or permitted to sign a waiver releasing the Government from its obligations to him, nor has he the moral stimulus arising from the necessity of early recovery and return to work, as he is still under pay and is maintained. The result of this is that the average length of stay in the military hospital in Canada is already much longer than for similar cases in civil hospitals, the cost to the public being correspondingly greater, and the ill effect upon the independence and self-helpfulness of the soldier quite distinct. These evils can be best neutralized by effective military control while in hospital. By the Chairman: Q. That was the point I wanted to be clear on. One result of military control will be to shorten tlie period of treatment? — A. As to the changes necessary in the A.M.C., they are directly these : first of all, the placing of all military medical patients under military medical control; and having that settled, the re-organization of the military medical services in a moderate way. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. You mean the re-organization of the CA.M.C? — A. Yes; tliat is, have an "A" side and a "B" side instead of having the D.M.S. Invalids report direct to the Adj,utant General, irrespective of the C.A.M.C., have a Director General of Medical Services who is head of the O.A.M.S. to direct both sides and give him a seat on the Militia Council. As it is, he has to report to the Adjutant General, who in peace time, with little to do, can present our little problems effectively, but he cannot under present conditions. Only within the last few weeks Lord Esher, whose committee organized the Army Council on which our Council is based, has publicly placed himself on record as saying that he greatly regretted that he had not taken the advice of Mr. Arnold Forster and his committee at the time when the office of Commander in Chief was abolished and the Army Council established, namely to put the head of the Medical Service in the War Office on the Council,— make him a member of the Army Council In my judgment it is very necesary that that change should occur. RECEPTION, TREATMEXT A^^D RE-EDUCATION 1231 By the Chairman: Q. Who compose the Army Council to-day? — A. I would say the heads of depart- ments — Adjutant General, Quartermivster General, Chief of the General Staff, and those heads of the staff into which the military services are divided. As things stand now, there are three authorities reporting direct to the Adjutant General in Canada on the question of sick and wounded. On one .'^ide there is a set of wheels composed of the Military Hospitals Commission; on the other side there is a set of wheels composed of the C.A.M.C — each of them with a separate group of invalids to deal with. Between them, for my sins, I come, with the returned invalids to deal with. You can see that the situation is unnecessarily complicated; and in addition to providing many ooca- eions for co-operation it does provide opportunities for friction. The situation is com- plicated and ill-considered. I should think that the one who is responsihle for the invalids, that is myself, should be wiped off the slate, and should be given a position in the Army Medical Corps under the D.G.M.S. ; and on the other side, above referred to as the B side in the D.G.M.S.'s office, in Organization and Administration, have officers in each department selected for their capacity, and have them known as the Army Medical Department — A.M.D. for short. This is the rule in other offices. If he is on the "A" side he is called A.]\r.D., 1-A, 2-A, 3-A; if he is on the "B" side, 1-B, 2-B, 3-B. He is directly i-espnnsible to the sub-head, who is directly responsible to the Director General, who should have a seat in the ^lilitia Council. Under a system of that kind everything could be smoothly carried on. The duties which I thought should be left to the Milit-ary Hospitals Commission under that scheme — because of consideration for all they have done, and out of regard to the public interest, because they can do for the returned men work which no other body can do — were the duties which ordinarily are left to the other departments of an army. The Engineers, Ordnance, Armj' Service Corps, and Pay Department, are the chief of those. In my judgment there is no reason why the Military Hospitals Commission should not continue; there is every reason why they should continue to discharge those duties, and be governed towards the medical service in this respect by all the regulations which control the medical sei-vice on the one side and those other departments of the army on the other. There is no reason why our relations with them and theirs with us, should not be as harmonious as they are at present in Britain and France and elsewhere, between the military services concerned. Q. What would you leave, then, for them to do? — A. I would leave them all the duties other than medical that they are carrj-ing out now — the providing of buildings and their maintenance and repair, their furniture and fittings; the question of technical supplies, that is, the original outfit of them — I think once a hospital is running its daily demands should be maintained through the medical side by the deix)ts and dis- trict depots which we have, the purchases of which are all under the control of the Purchasing Commission. Q. Catering and supplies ?— A. Yes. The A.S.C. services would include mainten- ance, rations, food supi>ly, and fuel; Ordnance would include clothing supply; of course ^re-education and re-eniploynKMit and the relations with provincial or public organizations or efforts other than those of the Canadian Red Cross and the Order of St. John, should all be left for the very highest degree of co-operation that could be secured between the ^fedical Service and the ^lilitary Hospitals Commission and the other bodies concerned. By Mr. Boss (Middlesex): Q. You would get dual control and dual wrangling again, would you not? — A. No. Q. Would you not get a whole lot of quarrelling again ? — A. Xo, we should not. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Take the matter of supplies, which are managed by the A.S.C, in the diffeernt districts for the army, and by the ^[.TLC, officials for the hospitals, why would there 1232 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS not be the same opportunity for friction there as there is in the Medical Service ? — A. You mean, between them and the Army Service Corps? Q. Yes? — A. I. do not see why it should arise at all. Q. Take the fitting up of hospitals, perhaps that would be a clear case; the fitting up a military hospital would be done by the engineers of the district? — A. Yes. Q. Who have a staff and who have employees for that purpose? — A. That is, icpairs. Q. What is the necessity of having another body of engineers and employees under the Military Hospitals Commission doing similar work? — A. One advantage is that it can be more speedily done, and that is largely because the statutory safeguards on expenditure do not exist in the case of the Military Hospitals Commission. Q. Are those safeguards such as have been found necessary by experience? — A. Yes, as between the Military Departments. Q. Then the removal of those safeguards would increase the risk of expenditures being made that should not be made?— A. That principle is admitted in the case of the Military Hospitals Commission. By the Chairman: Q. The Military Hospitals Commission can call for tenders, and can get it done by bire at a certain price? — A. Yes. Q. While the engineering department has to get it done with the engineers? — A. That is so. By Mr. Bennett: Q. If the work done by the Military Hospitals Commission were handed over to the Department the safeguard to which you refer would apply? — A. Quite so. Q. So that in the event of the whole administration being kept in a separate dopartment, other than the Department of Militia and defence, all that you have said with regard to the public interest being- protected, would be protected^ that is clear? — A. As regards the expenditure, quite so. Of course, I did not want to touch ou that particularly, I was asked about it. By Eon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Except that you said, as I understood you, that friction might arise in connec- tion with the Medical Service, and you observed that in connection with the < ther service there would not be the same friction? — A. I do not think there would be, and one reason for that is this that the method followed by Canada in France and England and in Greece and Egypt is that laid down by the regulations for the Army Medical Service, in which the Medical Service takes complete charge of the soldier when wounded until he is retrned to duty or finally discharged from service. The reglations are plain and well understood and work smoothly everywhere, being based on exper- ience. The relations of the Medical Service to the other Services and departments of the Army are well defined in the regulations etc., of the different services concerned. The necessity for co-operation is well recognized and the occasions for possible friction reduced to a minimum. There would appear to be no good reason why the Military Hospitals Commission, which has done and is doing, and, so far as one can see, must be required to continue to do good and indispensible work, should not enter into the same relations with the C.A.M.C. as these which are every- where else borne to the C.A.M.C. by the other branches of an army, particularly the Engineering, Army Service Corps, and Ordnance Services and the Pay Department. This would leave the purely Medical side of the care of sick and wounded to the Medical Services, as is already the case with the C.A.M.C. outside of Canada. Under this arrangement the selection and control of Staffs and the details of the management of all Military Medical establishments would be administered by the Director General of Medical Services through the General Officer Commanding and the Assistant RECEPTION, TREATMEXT AND RE-EDUCATION 1233 Director of Medical Services in each Military District, and the returning casualty would remain in the care of the ^[edical Services from the place in which he fell sick or was wounded through France and Britain, during his return to Canada by Hospital Ship and Hospital Train to the Medical Units in which his final recovery would be attained. Then I wanted to say something about the attitude of the Army Medical Service and of the profession at large. Q. You are referring to the Army Medical Corps, or to the medical profession generally? — A, I am referring to the medical men all over the country as well as to the officers of the C.A.M.C. Erom my personal knowledge of the state of feeling both in the Medical Service and the profession, in Quebec, Montreal, Kingston and Toronto, and I have no doubt also in the eountiy generally, there is very deep dissatisfaction with the present confusion of authority as to appointment, control, responsibility and pay of the staffs of Medical establishments. It is difficult for the lay mind to appre- ciate the annoyance of the professional mind caused by interference, usually uninten- tional, with purely professional matters. This annoyance is not selfish or jealous, but based in the main upon a due appreciation of the patients' interests, which naturally api)eal to and are understood by the professional mind with greater keenness and clear- ness. Confidence can be restored only by the early handing over of all such matters to the unhampered control of the C.A.M.C. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Might I ask a question with regard to that. You have been to Calgary, have you not? — A. Not lately. Q. You know the Ogden Home there? — A. I know of it, I have heard of it. Q. The Eed Cross established that Home, and that is my excuse for making refer- ence to it as an illustration ; we found that as long as these men of the C.A.^r.C. were there, we were troubled with difficulties with regard to rank, precedence and all that, goes with what I call " military caste," without using that term in any disrespectful way. We find, now that we are permitted to engage civilians and to determine whom we shall employ and how the work is to be done, we have had entire freedom from trouble or anything of that kind. — A. That is the alternative; I think I have already said, if not I intend to say, that the alternative of giving complete control to the Medical Service of the Militia Department is that the Military Hospitals Commission shall undertake to establish a complete set of hospitals with their own staff, on a civilian basis throughout; they will have either to do one thing or the other. By the Chairman: Q. A member of the C.A.M.C. is both a soldier and a doctor? — A. Quite so, and it is the same in every army in the world. Q. His position is sometimes that of a soldier and sometimes that of a doctor. Is he given responsibility because he ranks high as a soldier, although he may rank low as a doctor, or is he given responsibility because he ranks high as a doctor, no matter what his rank as a soldier? — A. He is given responsibility because of his rank. Q. As a soldier in the Army Medical Service he might have obtained a very high position in rank, while possibly he may be inferior as a doctor, might he not? — A. He might be, but that is carefully guarded against in the Royal Army Medical Corps, and I may say that the same applies in Canada. Q. Does not his advancement in the Army "Nfedical Corps depend far more on Military Service than it does on his ability as a medical man? — A, No, he cannot get a step in rank in the Army Medical Corps without examination and his examina- tions are not exclusively military. Q. Because, frankly, we were not very deeply impressed with the medical ex- cellence of the Army Medical Corps, as it has been displayed to us individually. — A. [Surgeon-General John T. Fotheringham.] 9S977— rs 1234 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Were you not thinking of the Permanent Army Medical Co^ps, whose duties are hirgely administrative, in time of peace their time being- almost altogether taken up in administration work, or are you speaking of the Canadian Army Medical Corps throughout the country at large? Q. Of the Canadian Army Medical Corps, as shown to us by the members of that corps that were examined by this committee. In their examination we were not particularly impressed with their medical status. — A. I would like to say this, that at the time the war broke out we had on the militia list about 600 medical officers and if I may be allowed to say it myself, we had in every city in Canada, the pick of the medical profession. It is true we did not have very many of the staff of the universities for various reasons. We did have on the list of the Canadian Anny Medical Corps officers who had university connections, but they were junior men, ranking from Captain to Lieutenant-Colonel. We have sent overseas about 2,000, and we ha^e on the list here noM^ about 1,280 and we require to send 35 a month for service abroad. By Mr. Bennett: Q. And there are about 20 a month coming back ? — A. Not as many as that. We will have to make our list larger, though. As the returning tide of men increases, we must bring them back; we intend doing that. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. You have spoken of two tides of men to be dealt with, the outgoing and the incoming. This committee is more particularly interested in the incoming tide, and if the Canadian Army Medical Corps were as efficient in attending to these incoming men, as they were, judging from the evidence we have received, in looking after the outgoing tide, the work would not be very satisfactorily performed. — A. I can account for that very readily. In the first place a great many of the original examinations were made by medical men absolutely without military experience. Q. C.A.M.C. men? — A. In many cases, no. By Mr. Bennett: Q. But in the greater number of cases they were? — A. Yes. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. In many cases they had no military experience? — A. In many cases they had been recently admitted to the service. Q. It was that or nothing. — A. Quite so. There is no doubt that pressure was brought to bear on many of these medical men by those who were recruiting. At Valcartier, I know, very many soldiers who were rejected, but whose medical history sheets were torn up before embarkation by their commanding officers. They were ordered on board ship and told they would get their medical history sheets on the other side when they would be re-examined. By the Chairman : Q. What you say has reference'to the first contingent? — A. Yes, the first con- tingent. Of course there have been mistakes since, but I feel now, with reference to the whole situation that we must bear in mind that in Great Britain as well as here, we have been amateurs. We have made a great many mistakes, but we must just buck up and not make those mistakes again. We must avoid recrimination and paste the page down as finished, with the feeling that we have learned our lesson. That is true of all branches of the service. Q. You were referring a moment ago to an alternative proposal. Will you amplify your statement.— A. If the Military Hospitals Commission adopt the prin- RECEPTION, TREATMEyT AXD RE-EDUCATION 1235 ciple of a distinct medical service, first of all the institutions it created would be under its own control absolutely, and the Army Medical Service would be formally absolved of all responsibility with regard to the returned soldiers. By Mr. Bennett: Q. That would involve the right to employ and discharge the men who acted as medical officers. — A. Certainly the commission would have their own staif. Q. And their position should be determined in the light of fitness as disclosed by their work, and they should be retained without regard to military rank. — A. Cer- taintly, it would be a civilian medical staff. Q. Like the staff of an ordinary hospital ? — A. Yes. By the Chairman: Q. Would you please continue to amplify your statement. — A. Then the medical service would undertake — if asked for by name for any officer or nursing sister — to release that officer or nursing sister on leave from the medical service, so that their seniority in the Militia List would not be interfered with on employment with the Military Hospitals Commission, without there being any "strings," if I may use a slang term, just as if they were going to serve on a railway. The other personnel, the orderly staff, which has been largely obtained heretofore from the C. A.M. CI Trainintr Schools in the different districts, should be transferred to the Military Hospitals Com- mand unit. Another source of supply would be the Special Service Companies, or under the compulsory service system, the men elassfied under Class "C". I do not think that the Commission would have any difficulty in securing a sufficient orderly staff in that way. There is one very important question which still remains, and that is the ques- tion of Boards. I feel that it will be impossible for the pensions of tlie men to be properly determined and the country fairly treated unless these Boards remain military. There must be. continuity of service. I do not think the Military Hospitals Commis- sion should be allowed to undertake them at all because I am perfectly satisfied that a Board, to conduct the examination of men for pensions on a civilian basis, will result in the mulcting of the country in millions. Q. Apart from the Board of Pensions Commissioners? — A. The proceedings of Boards which are accepted by the Pensions Commissioners are the proceedings of Military Boards. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. That is at present?— A. Yes. Q. And you say that is right? — A. It has to be so. By Mr. Bennett: Q. I received a letter dealing with that very point, and the complaint was made that the members of the Army Medical Corps who had seen no service overseas were not the type of men who should sit on Boards.— A. I thoroughly agree with that. Q. You do?— A. Absolutely. I will give you a reason for that belief; you will be interested in hearing it. There is a little town in France known as Aire, 23 miles in the roar of the firing line, which lies directly east. There was an officer— I will not say what service he belonged to, but I am glad to say he did not belong to mine — who came up before a ^ledical Board in London for leave on account of what he was pleased to term shell shock. He had been at a military hospital, I think No. 4 London General Hospital, Denmark Llill. under the care of the best Harley street specialists, and he had come to this Board with the recommendation that he be given six months leave. The recommendation was accompanied by a very sympathetic letter. Fortunately, the Board was composed of medical officers who had served in France and they knew their man. They knew that this officer's, duties never took him nearer to the firing line than [Surgeon-General John T. Fotheringham.] 1236 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Aire. He belongs to one of the Administrative Services, not a Combatant Service, and his work was done quietly in an office 23 miles away from the firing line. The result was that the Board recommended that he be given two weeks' leave of absence, and then return to duty. He was on the toboggan slide for six months here in Canada. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Perhaps longer? — A. Yes. Q. The medical officer who has been at the front often has a personal knowledge of the men himself? — A. Yes, and of the circumstances of which the man speaks. By the Chairman: Q. Will you continue further with the amplification of your alternative proposal? — A. I have nothing further to say on tlie point except this : that from my point of view as a member of the militia of the country, it seems to be tantamount to asking that the Militia Department shall strip itself of a certain very important part of its functions and, having done so, proceed to provide the personnel for some one else to carry on the duty, because I do not think that service can be manned without very large demands upon us. Mr. Bennett: Certainly not. By the Chairman: Q. Which demands you are quite prepared to fill? — A. As a disagreeable alterna- tive, sir. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. But apart from this disagreeableness, what Ave want to know is whether you, irom the experience you have had overseas, believe it would be in the best interests of the returned soldiers themselves, to continue the medical end of the Army Medical Corps as it is to-day, distinct from the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. My deliberate opinion is that the returned men and the public both will do better if the medical care remains in charge of the Army Medical service. By Mr. Sutherland: Q. As long as the patient is a member of the militia force? — A. Until he is ready for discharge or return to duty. Q. It would seem rather a remarkable thing to place him under the charge of a civilian body while he is still a member of the militia? — A. And still in some cases at least liable to return to duty as a soldier, and we hope we will have many more of that class than we have had so far. Q. Where would you fi.x the dividing line, where should the man pass from the control of the militia to the control of the Military Plospitals Commission? — A. As things stand now the patient is in the care of the C.A.M.C. Q. Exactly? — A. At the ship end of the gang plank at Halifax or Quebec he is under the care of the C.A.M.C. When he steps on to the dock he is under the care of the Military Hospitals Commission. Q. But he is still a member of the militia? — A. He is just as much a soldier as before Tie was wounded or became sick, and he is still drawing pay and allowance. Q. And may be returned to his unit in the course of a month or two? — A. The regulations in regard to men who are permitted to leave the other side for Canada are that they must be either hopelesssly incurable or require not less than six months' treatment. Hon. Mr, McCurdy: Suppose he gets six months' treatment and is ready to return, that is your point? By Mr. Sutherland: Q. If he has six months' treatment and is sent back again, there is an interval then where he is not really under the control of the military authorities, yet he is a RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1237 member of the military body all that time? — A. There is a sort of military control maintained over liim even in those circumstances. Since the New Year, I think, but at any rate recently, the system of the Military- Hospitals Commission Command was devised which is a unit in the Canadian Expeditionary Force. The Military Hospitals Commission Command has in each of the ^lilitary Districts in command of each of its units, an officer, mostly selected because he has seen service overseas, who is a com- batant, not a medical officer, and who rei>orts to the commanding officer of the ^iilitary Hospitals Commission Command in Ottawa, the latter officer reporting to the Adjutant General. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Reporting as to the fitness of each individual, as to whether he will go back to service or not? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. How do you get the man back into militarj- control again, whereby he is boarded? How, under the Chairman's alternative scheme, would he be returned back to the military authorities to be boarded for pension? — A. That would be done by the Board which is controlled by the A.D.M.S. of the district. In a large centre like Toronto, there would be a standing board which does that; and in outlying places that same board would probably be known as a travelling board, who would go out to visit the hospital, say in Whitby, whenever they were notified that there were twenty, thirty or forty men to be boarded. By the Chairman: Q. The civilian hospital would simply notify the A.D.M.S. and the Board would sit on the case, and make a finding regarding the men's pensions? — A. Yes. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. In other words, you release him at the gang-plank and have to take him back to be boarded out? — A. He is for that few minutes again under the C.A.M.C. He has to be examined for other mattere than for pension by the Board. By Mr. Bennett: Q. You made it very clear, and you will pardon me, perhaps, for asking the question, that he is still a member of the Canadian Militia whether he is in the Military Hospitals Commission Command or in the Overseas Command? — A. He does not cease to be a member of the militia technically in that way. Q. So that it is in fact really a branch of the Canadian Militia, and is a con- necting link, so to speak, between the Military Department and the Military Hos- pitals Commission body as such? — A. That is a unit in the txi>editionary foroo. By Hon. Mr. McGwrdy: Q. Your point is that while still a soldier he is away from medical care? — A. He is away from medical control. Q. He is not away from military control, because he is still in the Military Hos- pitals Commission Command? — A. He is carried on our list, but the list is probably in another town. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Under your alternative scheme to put him under the head of a department con- trolled by a Minister of the Crown, you would not have the Military Hospitals Com- mission Command as I understand; this new department is to be entirely divorced from the Militia Department, and the Militia Department have no control of these men while they are going through this new civil departnu-nt. When they get through [Surgeon-General John T. Fotherlngham.] 1238 SPECIAL COMMITTEE-C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS that department and go back to the Militia Department, they would be treated as new men? — A. They would not be re-attested. Their names would be carried on some list. Mr. MiDDLEBRO: You would have this anomaly: the Department of Militia would release a soldier for a certain length of time as to his control, and perhaps this new department might do something that you, as a military department, would not want done. Supposing he is in hospital for five or six months under the new scheme, where there is absolutely no control by the military department, because as I under- stand it, under the new scheme there is to be no Military Hospitals Commission Command. Mr. Bennett: It continues; it is the connecting link always between the Depart- ment of Militia and Defence. Mr, MiDDLEBRO : I do not think that is the idea of the Chairman. (To the Witness) If it is continued. General Fotheringham, you have the dual control again. You have the control of discipline by one body and control of medical care by the other. Mr. Bennett: General Fotheringham has explained that it is purely technical at the present moment. Mr. MiDDLEBRO: It is control for the sake of discipline. The Witness : I see your ijoint, and I agree with it. • Mr. MiDDLEBRO : My point is this : if there is going to be an absolutely new depart- ment created, which is to take hold of the soldier the minute he steps off the gang-plank at Halifax, and the Militia Department will*have nothing more to do with that man until he gets through this new department and either gets a pension or goes back into the army, during that period the Department of Militia will have no authority, nor will the Military Hospitals Commission. The Witness : You do not quite understand the scheme, sir. Hon. Mr. McCurdy: The Militia Department cannot ask to bring him back. The Chairman : You do not understand the scheme. The scheme was always to keep the Military Hospitals Commission Command intact. Mr. MiDDLEBRO: Then there is dual control, there is control as to discipline and as to medical care. The Chairman: The head of the Military Hospitals Commission Command is in the Military Hospitals Commission, who does his business from tlie Military Hospitals Commission's offices. Mr. MiDDLEBRO : How could the Militia Department get him back in the meantime until the Military Hospitals Commission is through with him? The Witness : They do not. Mr. MiDDLEBRO : Then he is out of their control. Mr. Bennett : It is only fair to say that if he can come back to Canada under those conditions, there will not be a single man go back to the army. The Witness : There should have been a good many. The Chairman: None of them refused their discharge and went back to the army. They have been discharged and re-enlisted. Mr. MiDDLEBRO : You cannot make them re-enlist. The Witness: That is part of our amateur way of doing it. A man signs an attestation to serve for the duration of the war, and six months more if needed. Mr. Eoss (Middlesex) : If he has never been discharged, he should be sent back. The Witness : As soon as he is fit. The Chairman: If he does happen to be lucky enough to get sound again, in my opinion he is entitled to his discharge. TliQ "UT'irr.xTTr.oc . a;« XT 1 J. T „ 4- „:i 1 J 1- i_., J.- xl.^i Trr_ 1- u RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1239 Bil Mr. Ross (Middlespx) : Q. In your alternative scheme, you said that tlie doctfjrs would come from the A'.M.C, and the nurses would come from the A.M.C. — that that could be done ^— A. They would go over to the M.H.C. on leave as civilians. Q. But you said they could not use their uniforms ? — A. Xu. Q. A regulation could be made that they could do so ; would that help any ? — A. It would not help at all; it would only make things worse. Q. Such a regulation could be made? — A. It would be very undesirable. If a nursing sister goes into a ward and asks a hulking blackguard to clean some brass, and he refuses, and she says, " It's the doctor's orders," he says, " Who the hell is the doctor?" — and reDuses to do it. He cannot be made to do it until some one is brought down, after some days' delay from some office farther up town, or in another town altogether, and the slow processes of military law are invoked, and punishment is inflicted, and there is nothing summary about it. It is long-range discipline, which is really worse than nothing. When the thing comes to a show-down the nursing sister has to come to a court-martial and give evidence. The situation is utterly intolerable, and in the army it is invariably avoided. By the Chairman: Q. Why cannot you take half a dozen men who are unruly in a liospital like that and send them to prison? — A. It cannot be done without process of law. Q. Wliy cannot you take out half a dozen men and deal with them summarily ? — A. We do if we are allowed. That is done in the hospitals that are under military control. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. You say that if that nurse or that doctor has a military uniform on, they will have more control over their patients, or that the one that has not a uniform on cannot exercise the same authority as the one that has? — A. I do. Q. It is merely a matter of regulation — A. It does not provide the machinery for enforcing it. The point I tried to make is this, that in a civilian institution, what is to be noted as military crime in the way of insubordination and insolence can be other- wise passed over provided it is not a military offence. If I go into the General Hos- pital in Toronto, where I have seventy-two beds — that I have not seen for three years — and am insolently spoken to by a patient, I am in plain clothes. T have my own remedy which is to be patient, because usually the patient is sick ; but if I am in uniform and go into a military hospital where a man who knows what discipline is sees my rank badges on me, and deliberately insults me by refusal — I mean, insults the uniform I wear, — and kicks against the whole system of discipline under which he is, by that act, you have to take notice of it ; and in a military hospital you cannot turn him out, as you can in gross cases in a civil hospital. By Mr. Pardee: Q. In military hospitals you cannot turn him out? — A. Imiwssible ; he has a contract with the country and the country with him. By the Chairman: Q. Cannot you transfer him to some other phice where he can be dealt with pro- perly, instead of making a hundred men suffer because they have gone in that hospital under rigid discipline? — A. The other men would not suffer, and those restrictions would not apply to them; punishments would not apply to them. Q. You go through any of our big general liospitals in Canada and you will find hundreds of men who are drawn from exactly the same walks of life as our soldiers, who are citizens in the same sense that our soldiers are; why do they not have trouble with them? — A. Sometimes they do. [Surgeon-General John T. Fotheringham.] 1240 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.—RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. But we arrest them and take care of tliem accordingly? — A. Quite; but you cannot do it under things as they are now. We can where there is a medical officer in command. In the convalescent homes in Britain and France, and everywhere, the medical officer in command can impose punishment. By Air. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Could not that be done under the Military Hospitals Commission just the same? — A. I do not think so. He would have to call in the civil authorities. In a civil hospital one cannot go and order a man put under arrest and locked in a cellar and put on punishment diet, and so on. By Mr. Bennett: Q. There arc hospitals in England in which there is not an officer in uniform — the V. A. D. hospital in England? — A. Yes, that is true. Q. And there is a Scottish unit that is run entirely by women ? — A. Yes, but they have " chuckers-out." They have sergeants with stripes on for the maintaining of discipline. Of course in military hospitals every sergeant, when he has not his stripes on, has his stripes put over his bed if he is in bed. By Mr. Pardee: Q. Cannot that be done with Military Hospitals Commission? — A. Certainly, if they wanted to do it that way. That would be about the best way they could do it ; but remember that in the military hospitals under the present system we will see one officer who is charged with the enforcement of discipline for probably fifty, and there may be in some districts a hundred medical officers, who are not permitted to interfere in the matter of discipline. They are the ones who get the rub. By Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : Q. Say that again, please? — A. Under the present system the only official charged with maintaining discipline in the Military Hospitals Commission hospital is the officer commanding the unit of the M. H. C. Command. Now, in the second military district of Toronto, he has his office up on College Street, and there are hospitals for which he is responsible in Hamilton, in Newmarket, in North Toronto, in Whitby— where they will soon have probably 1,500 patients in the one place. Now, it is utterly impossible for that man, sitting in Toronto, to maintain the daily grind of discipline. He can inflict punishments wholesale when he comes down, but he cannot keep a steady, gentle pressure on them, more particularly for the reason I have mentioned, for in hospitals examples will arise where the medical officer is flouted by a sergeant of the subordinate staff, as in the case of the back rests I spoke of. By Mr. Bennett: Q. But there is a military man in command of each military hospital — a returned soldier? — A. Not in every one, but I suppose it is the rule. Q. It is a rule, but they are short-handed in getting suitable men back in that position; but there are four in my country, and there is a returned officer in charge who administers discipline in that home? — A. Well, Mr. Bennett, put yourself in the place of the medical officer, who has perhaps served abroad, or has been in the militia for twenty years, and who is a returned officer from another service and his junior in rank placed over him in matters of discipline so that the medical officer is not allowed to occupy his rightful position of seniority. The effect is that in the mind of most of the men he is nothing but what they call a "damned doctor." Q. Is not that like the superintendent of a hospital ? He discharges his duty, and ho goes away? — A. Yes, but he is a civilian. Now, the mixture that we have just now i'^ in my judgment, intolerable. RECEPTIOX, TREATilEXT .LA/> HE-EDUCATION 1241 By the Chairman : Q. Frankly, General, I cannot see how a hundred men who were citizens of Canada before the war, who have been to the war and come back, and are a hundred men intend- ing to continue as citizens of Canada, on returning to Canada require altogether diff- erent medical treatment? — A. Not medical treatment — require different handling. Q. Kequire different disciplinary treatment than if those hundred men were in cur ordinary hospitals; what change has come over those men? Are they different men, as the result? Are they much more undisciplined than before they went away? — A. They are probably better disciplined; and those very same men in France or Ii'ritain would give no trouble. By Mr. Ross (Middle^=ex) : Q. The atmosphere of the country? — A. Certainly. When they get over here they get home, and you know the kind of treatment they get. I quite agree that kind- ness and cordiality and the welcome home is the very least they deserve; but I do contend that that should not be allowed to absolutely submerge the fact that they are still soldiers, and that the country still has duties to them, and they to the country. By the Chairman: Q. The Government has recently passed an Order in Council to give three months' bonus pay to each man upon discharge, who has been six months in eervice and has been overseas; now, would not the forfeiture of that pay, in whole or in part, on account of his conduct, be quite enough to restrain the returned soldier? — A. It would have a tremendous effect if the soldier knew who was responsible for ordering the forfeiture. It would be an excellent disciplinary measure. Q. Don't you think, if you had those hospitals of such a character as in the alter- native proposition, and a medical man in charge of a hospital had the right to recom- mend that the whole or a part of that money would be \^ithheld from the man for mis- conduct, and he knew that, that would help as a disciplinary influence? — A. It would help a lot. Q. There would be no difference as between the civilian medical attendance and the medical attendance they will get from the C.A.M.C. ? — A. None at all. Q. One is as efl5cient as the other? — A. Absolutely. As a matter of fact the personnel would be practically the same no matter from which source it was drawn. Q. Then taking a hospital under the C.A.]\r.C., and a hospital under the Military Hospitals Commission Command — I am told this is so — are there not, in a hospital under the A.M.C., a very great many more people employed, in the way of orderlies and that sort of thing, than seem to be necessary, if it is under the Military end of this business, than there would be if it were in the nature of a civil hospital? A. That is is true, if you have regard to the male employees it is quite trua " Q. The percentage is ver:^- large is it not in the number of employees in a hospital planned by the Army Medical Corps? — A. Yes, decidedb'- Q. And therefore it would be verj- much more expensive? — A. I do not see how it could be more expensive, there will be just as lai^e a personnel, only it will l>e largely female in the case of a civil hospital. Q. I am told that in requisitions that are made under the Army !Nrodiral Corps for hospital attendants, that they would he alK>ut four to one compared to what are required in a hospital under the Military' Hospitals Commission. — A. I would like to see the requisition. Q. I cannot tell you just what the difference is, but, for your benefit, I will give you the information which I have on that point, I have not the list with me. — A. Thank you. The point i^;, to begin with, in a civilian hospital the arrangements are made on the basis of normal conditions, not taking into consideration the " peak of the load." [Surgeon-General John T. Fotheringham.] 1242 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS The very opposite is the underlying principle in our military hospitals. Great Britain is maintaining daily at least 40,000 empty beds in France alone, and quite as many or a great many more in Britain. The reason for this is that if the military hospitals are already full, and there is heavy fighting, there is no margin available for emergency and the whole isystem is biased on providing for the highest number of casualties. For that reason the normal establishment is large. Many years of actual experience have enabled the authorities to lay down the personnel required for a hospital of 1,040 beds, that would be a general hospital, and in the case of a stationary hospital of 520 beds; the noiimal personnel required for those hospitals is laid down on the principle of all the beds filled. Those hospitals may be, it all depends on the fighting, for 9 or 10 months out of the 12 only occupied by five hundred, instead of a thousand, but all the l)ersonnel is there to carry on the work if the hospital is filled. Q. And you would keep a hospital here manned in the same way that they are there? — A. No, for the simple reason that all such hospitals are formed on the basis of a fixed estalblishment which applies generally to all the hospitals established under the military regialations but with regard to such hospitals as might be established here there is not a fixed establishment laid down for them. I quite admit, ^as a matter of practice that the universal tendency in all such offices as the Registrar's Office, the Steward's Office, and that sort of thing, is to accumulate an unnecessary number of men and in speaking this way Q. And in your opinion that could be largely remedied? — A. Yes, that could be controlled. Q. Then just let me ask you this: You have told us what the Military Hospitals Commission should do, as against the Army Medical Corps. You assume that the Army Medical Corps would not have charge of vocational training or anything of that kind?— A. No. Q. That would be attended to by the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. Cer- tainly, and the work of repatriation and dovetailing in with the National Service. Q. That would be all work- for the Military Hospitals Commission? — A. Altogether, except when the Commission would apply to us for vocational medical officers to assist them out of their difficulties. Q. Then in the case of vocational or functional training, would the Military Hos- pitals Commission have to apply to the Army Medical Corps to supply the needed officers? — A. Not unless the Commission wished to do so. They might pick out men elsewhere if they preferred. I would say, have the both. Q. Your idea would be that it would be quite in order to absolvitely disassociate the A.M.C. from having anything to do with vocational or functional training? — A. Absolutely from that part of it which consists in refitting a man for social duties. I do not say that you should relieve the A.M.C. from the control of that part of the work which is therapeutic in character. Q. In your judgment would it be following the line of least resistance for the mili- tary avithority to take over the activities that are necessary for the returned soldier — functional training and everything of that kind — take over the whole thing, or for the Military Hospitals Commission to make the adjustments necessary for that purpose? — A. I would not consider it wise to ask either of them. Q. Suppose we decide that the duties should not be mixed, which would be the easiest way to get out of the difficulty, for the military authorities to take it over or the Military Hospitals Conmaission? — A. I would not advocate either of them doing it for one moment. There should be co-operation absolutely in the public interest. Q. Then do you advocate the continuation of the dual system? — A. No, I do not. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Do you believe in single control ? — A. Yes, of the purely medical side. [Surgeon-General John T. Fotheringham.l RECEPTION, TKEATMEXT A\D RE-EDUCATION 1243 B)i the Chairman: Q. I want to make your point perfectly clear. I understand you advocate the continuation of the two activities working for the returned soldiers, the Army Medical Corps looking after the medical care and the Military Hospitals Commission superin- tending the vocational training and all kindred subjects? — A. Yes, the latter dealing with what may be called the civilian side of the case. Q. So that a mixed service is what you recommend? — A. T would not say " mixed service," I would rather say "a combined service." By Mr. Pardee: Q. Do you think that these two separate bodies can co-operate and go on with the work, and yet there be no dual control? — A. Yes, (juite easily. Q. If you will be good enough to state briefly your views in writing in that regard and let us have the information to-morrow, you will be doing us a favour. — A. I can give the information to you now. Q. Well, give the information to us now- if you would i)refer to do so. — A. In all tliat pertains to the medical care of men who are not fit for duty the medical service should have control — that is of the duties ordinarily discharged by the medical service in any army. That is to say, they should have command of the hospitals, the discipline in the hospitals and the treatment carried on in the hospitals, and there their duties should end. On the other hand, the Military Hospitals Commission should discharge towards all those men who are still soldiers the duties which are ordinarily discharged towards them by the Pay Department, or the Engineering, Ordnance and Army Service Corps services ; all that has to do with their pay, their feeding, housing, warming and clothing. The whole thing is done every day in every army in the world, and what I would like to see in the public interest as well as the interest of the soldier, is that the Military Hospitals Commission should adopt towards the A.M.C. the relations which are adopted towards the A.]\[.C. by other departments of the army. Q. The rules that are adopted towards the A.^I.C. by the other departments of the Government A. Of the army. If that were done, ^Ir. Pardee, long and bitter experience and painful adjustment has produced a set of regulations which are as nearly perfect as anything human can be for present circumstances, and there is no friction, no difficulty. By Mr. SutJierland: Q. Is there such a condition as we have here in any other country^ — A. Xo. Q. Do you know of any country where they have adopted regulations to compare with those that are in existence in Canada at the present time? — A. No, I do not. Q. There must have been some good reason for adopting them here. Is it possible that the medical service was not properly looking after the work which was developing upon it? — A. The" reason for that is. I was not here. But I think it was quite possible that the forming of the Military Hospitals Commission was an emergency measure. Every one of us failed to imagine what this war was going to be. none of us perhaps imagine yet what the future will be. As evolution has proceeded, it is reasonable to say that the time for reconsidering the situation can arise, and that it is in the interest of the country to redefine the duties that have been laid not only on the Military Hospitals Commission, but probably on a good many other organizations in the country; and I claim that a redefinition can be made without loss of face or prestige to anybody. Mr. Bennett: That is a matter of small importance. Hon. ^[r. McCfunv : It may not be. The WiTN-ERS: In the public interest Mr. Bennett: In the soldiers' interests, too. [Surgeon-General John T. Fotheringham] 1244 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS The Witness: The medical service can be permitted to do at home what it does without question most efficiently in every other field to-day, the very duties that devolve upon it in France and in England. By Mr. Bennett: Q. If what you say is correct the whole Military Hospitals Commission should be handed back to the Department of Militia and Defence? — A. Oh, no, sir. Q. Because it was formed purely as an emergency measure? — A. No, sir. That is for the Cabinet to say. Q, You have been very frank with us, and exceedingly fair? — A. I do not think it is necessary or desirable. My personal opinion, my observation, is that there is a great deal of very indispensable work for the Military Hospitals Commission to do. Q. With relation to the readjustment and rehabilitation of the soldier? — A. That IS what I have in mind. Q. There is no part of the world in which a war department has been carrying on vocational training. The War Department in Britain does not carry on that work. It is carried on by the Lord Roberts Memorial organization? — A. I think there are many organizations. Q. But it is not carried on by the War Department? — A. It is not carried on as part of the activities of the R.A.M.C. The Chairman : May I read one short clause from a report made to the Rt. Hon. David Lloyd George, then Secretary of State for War, by Capt. Sir Henry Norman, who was sent to France to study the treatment and training of disabled and discharged soldiers. He says (reads) : — - The result of these independent and often conflicting activities was inevit- ably confusion, overlapping and waste. Therefore, on the initiative of the Minister of Labour, a co-ordinating scheme was created by interministerial decrees of March 2nd and 16th, and May 11th, 1916, known as the "National Office for Mutilated and Discharged Soldeirs.". .. . The creation of this national office, and the provision of funds for its support, were voted unanimously by the Chamber of Deputies, and it is now in operation at 95, Quai d'Orsay, although the Senate has as yet taken no- action in the matter. The object of the National office is to co-ordinate the work of public depart- ments and institutions dealing with discharged and mutilated soldiers, and to centralize all useful information on the subject. That is what they do in France. The Witness : We ought to do so, it would be a splendid thing if we did. Mr. Ross (Middlesex) : That is what the Military Hospitals Commission was sup- posed to be. Mr. Bennett : In the light of wider knowledge do you realize that some such central department should be established in this country, charged with the responsibil- ities that have just been mentioned by the Chairman, and incidental to that, the Military Hospitals Commission would deal with the medical services, relating "to its civilian activities, and that the Commission as such would be and you would be under a responsible minister in the Department. The Witness : There is no reason why that should not be ; so long as the medical service was not disturbed in the normal discharge of its military duties. There is no reason why that should clash at all in doing what they are doing in England, allowing the Army Medical Corps to carry out those wishes. Q. As I understand, in England the whole problem has not yet been solved, and in some places a civilian doctor is working; is that true? — A. Yes, that is true. All the V.A.D. places where the civilian staffs work — and there are dozens of such places — are under direct military control ; they are not assigned to another department control. RECEPTION, TREATMEXr AXD RE-EDUCATION 1245 Q. No, because in England they have publie " pensions," and in the reports that we have seen from England the whole question of co-ordination of various depart- ments is urgent, and it is possibly a new department? — A. Yes. Q. You have heard the discussion, and know how it stands? — A. I have heard a little of it, but you may be quite sure that no matter what arrangement is made they will not make an arrangement which will put their military invalids into two separate groups under two separate controls, as we have it. They won't have a situation in which a man who. goes sick after going overseas is put under one set of authorities, and a man who went sick before going overseas is left in normal military medical charge. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Before you leave that matter of hospitals, I would like to ask a question to clear up a matter of misapprehension: I understand some member of the committee to premise a question on a statement that there were a large number of attendants about the military hospital that were not necessary, which you explained by saying that the military hospitals are kept ready to receive their maximum capacity of patients? — A. I fancy you and I are not thinking of the same hospital. Q. Do you know anything about the operation of the Military Hospitals Com- mission in this country with regard to whether their hospitals are filled or not? In other words, do those conditions which the members of committees stated apply to any of the Military Hospitals Commission's hospitals in this country? — A. I do not know, but I suppose that they would add to their staffs as the beds get full. Q. Do you know that we had in this country a Military Hospitals Commission hospital which has kept its full staff and has not any patients at all? — A. No, I do not. I have not been around to see. By Mr. Bennett: Q. I suppose the conclusion one might arrive at depends to a considerable extent on whether one views the returned man as a soldier or as a civilian, does it not? — A. Yes. Q. That is the basis of it all, is it not, more or less?— A. Well, it is a common jumping-off place, at any rate. Q. And if we view him purely as a civilian wo adopt him back to civilian life, and our conclusions might be much more warranted than if we looked at him in the way you mentioned a moment ago, as an instrument of warfare, just as a soldier? — A. Well, I think that your views would bo very much more apt to be erroneous. Q. If you looked at him as a civilian^ — A. Yes, because as a matter of fact he is not a civilian. By the Chairman : Q. As a matter of fact you always had in mind the thought that the time may come when you can say to that man, " You have got to go back to the front ?"— A: Yes, that must be possible on the terms of the contract which ho and the country entered into. Q. You are going to hold him to the last drop of his contract, as far as that is concerned? — A. I would not think of it if I did not know what the situation is at the front. If you lived for eighteen months the life of a stray cat, and moved around only at night, your only thought and your one object in life being to kill the Bosches. iuid to avoid being killed yourself; if you went around the corner and saw lying there a friend with whom you had been talking a few minutes previousl,v, all sma.shed up ly a shell, I think your viewiwint would be the same a.s mine. Q. Would you care to give an expression of opinion that if the Military Hospitals Commission were charged with the duties which you have assigned them here, it would be worthy of a separate head?— A. That is a matter of policy which is not for me to suggest. [Surgeon-General John T. Fotheringham.] 1245 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. I thought you might have an opinion of your own. — A. My opinion would be, no; I think it would be a case of putting a man to a boy's job. By Hon. Mr. McCurdy: Q. Can you tell us what the regulations are with regard to transferring individ- uals from England to Canada who are affected with venereal diseases? — A. I have had no service in England, but my understanding of the situation is that no man is allowed to leave^ there with active venereal disease which may cause trouble from a public point of view. You must understand that there are two venereal diseases, gonorrhea and syphilis: it is a very easy matter to hold up every man who has gonorrhea, but a man may return who has a syphilitic taint, and who has been treated and now shows no disease but may yet become the father of an infected child. Q. What are the regulations with regard to venereal diseases? — A. The danger to the public lies almost completely in the situation here. The situation with regard to this disease in Canada is interesting from the fact that the percentage of incidence of this disease reported among members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force is the very same in Canada as it is in England, although there are probably ten women available in England to one in Canada, the percentage of venereal diseases is the same. There is a small percentage of our men who will get venereal disease, no matter where you put them, if there are women around; they will not get it in the field, but at the same time there is the same percentage of soldiers get venereal diseases right here in Canada, after enlistment, as there are in England, where the opportunities are probably ten times more numerous than they are here This point is one distinctly in favour of the men as regards their moral quality. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Of course your remarks with reference to this disease only apply to the men who are enlisted in the Canadian Expeditionary Force, and not to the general popula- tion ? — A. Certainly, they apply only to the army. By Mr. Middlehro : Q. And your references to the Canadian Expeditionary Force apply only to a limited number of men who throw themselves open to the contraction of this disease? —A. Yes. A schedule of the regulations with reference to '' Medical Services " and " Duties, etc., of Medical Officers," were handed in by General Fotheringham, as follows: — REGULATIONS, KIXG'S REGULATIONS AXD ORDERS, ETC. WITH RKFEREXCE TO .^lEDICAL SERVICES. 1. K. R. and O.— No. 196. 1082-1112. esp. 1082. 1086. Guard. 1088. Rules for patients. 1094. 1099. Discipline.* 1100. 1111. 1098. Patients, light duty. 1109. M.O. at parades. 1110. " target practice. [Surgeon-General John T. Fotheringham.! RECEPTION, TKEATMEST AM) RE-EDUCATION 1247 * Discii)line — See also — A.C. I 831, Ap. 17, 16 (p. 7G, 77). General Instructions — 2 (November 30, 1016) — Paragraph 20 — p. 16. Treatment in hospitals. " 21 — p. 17. Discipline in hospitals. 22— p. 18. Rules in hospitals. 47— p. 31. Army Form C-345, British — Onlers for patients in military hospitals (App. 17, Standing Orders, R.A.M.C.). DUTIES. ETC.. OF .MEDICAL OFFICERS. 1. Regulations — A. M.S. Para. 1 — Define duties in general terms. " 3 — D.G.^r.S. control of ai)ix)intments to duties. " 4 — D.Ci.^I.S. control of appointments to duties. " 8 — A.D.M.S. and hosp. establishments. " 17— Orderly M.O.'s roster. " 18— Orderly M.O.'s roster. '' 19 — Supervision of diets and extras by A.D.M.S. '■' 24— 30— A.D.:M.S. duties, etc.. hospitals and M.O.'s with corps. 2. Military Establish ments. General Management and Control. Xo. 166— Objects. 167 — Command (very important.) 173 — Employment of patients. 181— Orders. 184 — M.O. i/c hospital. — Duties, generally. 186 — M.O. i/c hospital. — Duties and diseipliiie. 187 — M.O. i/c hospital supplies. 224 — Adjutant and registrar. 226— 241— Officers' day duty. 242— 249— Orderly officers. 250 — 267 — Quartermaster. 282 — M.O.'s i/c divisions in hospitals. 301— Matron— Duties— Relations to O.C, etc. 301— 310— Matrons' duties. 311 — 317 — Charge nurses — Duties. 3. F. S. Regulations, Ft. IL Chap. XL— Para. 82, " "87, 97 — Volunteer (civilian) organization. 4. R.A.M.C. Training (19U). Chap. I.— Objects of militarj' training. XIX.— Geneva Convention— 1906, Art. 10. Witness discharged. The Committee adjourned. [Surgeon-General John T. Fotheringhan%.3 1248 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS House of Commons, EooM 301, June 12, 1917. The committee resumed at 8 o'clock p.m. Mr. N. F. E. liJNiGHT, called, sworn and examined. The Witness: I would like to make. a word of explanation. It is not my pur- pose to exaggerate in any way in regard to any of these cases. I use them simply for the purpose of pointing out that there are flaws in various departments. What has struck me more than anything else is the amount of delay involved in order to secure the adjustment of any case coming in. Out of perhaps 250 cases I have selected just a few. Most of them are very closely related to one another in the degree of com- plaint. The first case is that of No. 75572, G. E. Drew, late 29th Battalion. So far as I know, all the facts I state in connection with this case are correct; I took special pains to find out. The circumstances were reported to me by one of our executive committee, who was ready to vouch for them; I believe the case to be as stated. This man was wounded at St. Eloi, April 19, 1916, in right arm, right side and head. He was a prisoner in Germany for one month. Upon arrival in England I understand he had his arm amputated. Four months ago he arrived here and was sent out to Vancouver and has been living there since. I under- stand his folks are not in too comfortable circumstances, Four months ago he received a letter from the Board of Pensions Commissioners stating that his claim for pension was under consideration, but he never received a cent unless within the last fortnight. I took this case up with the Pensions Board by telephone, because I thought it could not possibly be true. In reply to my inquiries about the case I received a very rude remark over the 'phone. I insisted on knowing what was the matter and was told that an officer at headquarters had had charge of the man's file but that he had lost the file and could not find it. That is why no adjustment had been made in the case. The next case is that of No. 418581, Pte. J. Saunders, late 42nd Battalion. This man discharged April 26, 1917, due to shrapnel wound in the right shoulder. His previous employment was railroading. Unable to continue work as he cannot lift his arm above the shoulder. Still has three pieces of shrapnel in his shoulder. Mar- ried, with two children. His pension of $8 per month is insufficient. On the 19th of May I brought this man's case to the attention of the Board of Pensions Commissioners. On the 29th I received a letter back. The Board wrote stating that Saunders must have a medical certificate filled out by his own practitioner. Now, I know of one case where a medical practitioner charged a man $5 to make out such a certificate. In this case, however, the medical certificate was obtained and shows he has three fractures above the right shoulder. He cannot bring his right arm away from his body for more than three inches at the elbow-joint. Has frequent headache as a result of injury to the scalp. Foreign body probably still present. Cannot use his right arm unless with the elbow resting on right hip. This certificate is signed by Dr. H. B. Carmichael, 515 Wellington street, Montreal. Nothing has been done in this man's case yet in the matter of a re-hearing, so far as I am aware. Then there is the case of No. 11014, 19th Battalion, C.E.F. This man was dis- charged with a pension of $8 a month. He was formerly a jockey and enlisted, I understand, living in St. Catharines. On his discharge, when he was given the pen- sion of $8, it was said something was wrong with his heart. An X-ray examina- tion showed a 30 per cent enlargement of the heart due to shell-shock. On his dis- RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1249 charge he was told by the Medical Board that he was syphilitic. He did not believe he was syphilitic, and he went to a ijhysician in St. Catharines, who took a specimen of his blood and sent it to the pathological laboratory of the New York Polyclinic, and the director, Dr. F. M. Jeffries, declared the blood to be negative to the Wassermann test. I immediately wrote the Pension Board, and received the following reply (reads) : Sir, — I have the honour, by direction, to acknowledge receipt of your letter of recent date, relative to the pension awarded the soldier marginally named, and to inform you that the medical certificate forwarded therein has been care- fully perused by the medical advisor of this Commission, who reports as follows : " The medical certificate sent verifies the diagnosis, but gives no estimate of disability. The estimate of all previous medical boards justifies the award already made. Therefore an increase of pension is not indicated." That is the opinion of the Board of Pension Commissioners. Now, the trouble is that the man is not able to work. There are cases I know, very few, where men might lie down on the job, "play the old soldier," as they say. Prom all accounts this man is not of that kind. He is incapable of working because of dizziness and palpitation of the heart, due to service. A pension of $8 in a case like that seems absurd. I have also the certificate of Dr. W. J. Macdonald, who took an X-ray of his heart, and he says there is a thirty per cent enlargement; but there is nothing here that I have received that would warrant me to believe that they are going to give it to him. This is the case of a man No. 21623, Private T. W. Kidd, 5tli Battalion. This man's pension was cut oflf last month. I finally got word about two weeks from the time I first inquired from the Board of Pension Commissioners that they had acted. Two weeks ago, on May 28, I sent them a minute of the case, and I have this letter : — I have the honour, by direction, to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated May 28, relative to the non-payment of pension in the case of the marginally noted, and in reply would ado'ise you tliat this pension has been withheld pending a report of his medical re-examination on January 1, 1917. In other words, they paid him pension for February and Marcli, and then stopped the payment on that medical examination of January 1. Now, they have stopped it altogether, and no notification has been sent to the man why his pension is stopped. That is the last reply I received. By Mr. Bennett: Q. What is the date of that reply ? — A. June 11 ; the inquiry was May 28. Here is No. 61652, Private J. C. Poirier, 22nd Battalion, enlisted September 14, 1914; wounded September 21, 1915; returned to Canada, February 23, 1916; right eye gone; left eye badly affected; first recommended as seventy-five per cent disabled; now cut dou-n to forty per cent. As to this man Poirier, I saw a man to-day that knows him very well; he is trying to work in the post office. The CiiAmxiAX : His case. No. 30-A, has already been before us. The memorandum states that he had been examined by three Boards; that he received $192 per anniun for one year, and that the Pension Board did not consider that there was anj' just cause for the claim. The Witness : We took that man up for reboarding. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Did you see him? — A. I saw him when I was in Montreal last time, about three weeks ago. Q. How fit was he? — A. He wears a veiy thick glass on the left eye. The right eye is out. [Mr. X. F. R. Knight.] 28277—79 1250 SPECIAL COMMITTEE— C.E.F.— RETURNED SOLDIERS Q. Has he been able to get any employment? — A. He was working in the post office. Q. Is he able to continue? — A. Ko, sir, fears he will have to quit, because he can- not see well. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. What sort of work does he do? — A. Sorting, I think. He enlisted in Montreal with the 22nd French Canadians. The Chairman: Private Poirier claimed that he had been recommended by the Medical Board held in Montreal for pension on the basis of 75 per cent incapacity, and that this had been reduced to 50 per cent by the Board of Pensions Commissioners. The Medi-cal Board which examined him at Shorncliffe on January 15, 1916, said his incapacity had been total for three months, then one-half permanently. The Medical Board at Quebec considered the incapacity at 100 per cent for three months, three- quarters for three months, and one-half subsequently. At the further Board at Mont- real his incapacity was stated at fifty per cent. He was therefore discharged on 16th July, 1916. The Board of Pensions Commissioners granted a pension in Class 4, $192 per annum, for one year from July 27, 1916. There is no evidence of fracture of the skull, although there is a scar above the right ear, due to sealp wound. It is considered there is no just cause for the claim. By Hon. Mr. Marcil: Q. Is he a single man? — A. It does not say here whether he is or not. Mr. MiDDLEBRO : They recommend 50 per cent pension. The CHAiRiiiAN : Apparently the trouble is that there being no 50 per cent pension he was awarded a 40 per cent. Witness: The trouble is that the man's eye is still growing worse, and he is losing the sight of the other eye. His claim to me is that he has never been before a real eye-specialist. , By the Chairman: Q. His year is up in July, and he can then be reboarded and then he will have to be reported on to see whether his pension drops or is continued ; if it is worse, he will get the benefit? — A. The difficulty is that this man can only write French, I believe. This letter is from the local secretary at Montreal, and because the man has not got a letter from the Department he thinks they do not care anything about it. I under- stand now they have brought a returned soldier up from Montreal to look after letters of that kind, he is a member of our Association in Montreal, he came here yesterday, and has gone to work to-day. The next is an unsual case, No. 65486, Private Edward James, enlisted jSTovember 2, 1914, in the 24th Battalion, and was discharged September 1, 1916. This man when he enlisted took his three sons with him, and they have all been at the front. One of them, Herbert, was killed on Vimy Ridge. This man was gassed, and I took his case up with the Pension Board and was immediately told that he was not entitled to any pension because of wrongful statement when he enlisted; he stated he was 45 years old, when he enlisted, and he was 56. I know that in the British Service they overlook that sort of thing now, and since the man has given his three sons to the service and was gassed himself, and is now in bad condition, we. think he is entitled to some consideration. By Mr. Bennett: Q. Was he on active service? — A. Yes. Q. And you are sure about his being refused a pension? — A. Yes, I took the case up personally and I was told by the office of the Board of Pensions Commissioners, that he had forfeited his claim by wrongful enlistment. [Mr. N. F. R. Knight.] RECEPTION, TREATMENT AND RE-EDUCATION 1251 Q. By giving incorroet information with regard to himself? — A. Yes. I have a medical certificate here from Dr. James Kobertson, 13G7, Wellington St., Verdun, stating that this man is suffering from asthma due to the gas-poisoning, difficult breath- ing appearing on the heart exertion. Decided limp of the left leg, and weakness of the same ankle. This patient requires an abundance of air and rest to counteract the asthma condition which would also enable the left leg to become stronger. I consider Edward James disabled practically for a number of years, on account of his age and asthma condition. In reference to this case, the fact is that the man passed probably three ^ledical Boards successfully before he got to the front. There might be unusual cases where men were put on and the papers were torn up as stated this afternoon ; I do know of one battalion in which it is stated that was done wholesale, but that was not the case in this instance. This man probably passed three Medical Boards, and he passed it in England anyway before he crossed the channel so that he must have been in pretty good condition at that time. By Mr. Middlehro: Q. Where did he get his Board after his injury? — A. In England. Q. What did they certify? — A. I have not their report, the Pension Board has that on their file. I have another case here, No. 258G8, Corp. James McRae, 14th Battalion. This is a case of corneal opacities. This is another man that sustained the total loss of sight of one eye, and the other is fast going. The first ^fedical Board at Dibgate said that he was suffering from defective vision, partially due to the old corneal opacities and partially to shock of concussion from exploding shell at Ypres on April 25, 1915. The main thing about this is that this man, too, went through medical boards, and he has to stand at a distance of 20 feet or move and with one eye covered, to read the small print; they take one eye at a time so that there could not have been much wrong with his eyes when he left Canada for England. By the Chairman: Q. If the test were applied to him? — A. It is supposed to be applied to him, and if the medical man who was the agent of the Dominion Government overlooks that, the Government is responsible for such condition of affairs. The fact is that after the man is once taken it is no consolation to him when he comes back and is going blind to receive a letter from the department stating: — " I have the honour, by direction, to forward herewith a copy of the order of the Board of Pensions Commissioners for Canada, discontinuing your pension. Enclosed please find statement of your account to date." Q. They cut off his pension after inquiring into the matter? — A. They cut it off, and at the time they cut it off his wife was in the hospital undergoing treatment, and the man himself was unable to work, oonse