lIbrary 
 
 UNIVERSITY OF 
 CALIFORNIA 
 
 
b 
 
(^ 
 

A 
 
 ^Tovrrtt, jThII, ann ilmpartttil i^rport, 
 
 OF THE 
 
 TRIAL OF HER MAJESTY, 
 
 qUEEN CONSORT OF GREAT BRITAIN, 
 BEFORE THE HOUSE OF PEERS; 
 
 ON THE 
 
 |$iU otlpain^ anti ||ataltu0; 
 
 WITH 
 
 AUTHENTIC PARTICULARS, 
 
 EMBRACING 
 
 EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE CONNECTED WITH, AND JLLUsTRA- 
 TIVE OF, THE SUBJECT OF THIS MOiMENTOUS EVENT 
 
 INTERSPERSED WITH 
 
 ORIGINAL LETTERS, 
 
 AND OTHER 
 
 Carious and Jntereativg Documents, not generally known, and 
 never before Published, 
 
 INCLUDING, AT LARGE, 
 
 HER MAJESTTS DEFENCE. 
 
 The whole collected, arranged, and edited by 
 
 J. H, ADOLPHUS, ESQ. 
 
 EonHon; 
 
 Priiited and Published by JONES and Co. 1, Oxford Arms Passage, 
 Warwick Laue \ aud Sold by all Booksellers and Newsmen. 
 
 Entered at Stationem' Hall, 
 1820. 
 
Digitized by the Internet Archive 
 
 in 2008 with funding from 
 
 IVIicrosoft Corporation 
 
 http://www.archive.org/details/correctfullimparOOcarorich 
 
TRIAL- ''^^^-^"^ 
 
 OF 
 
 THi: QUEEN. 
 
 BtLL OF PAINS AND PENALTIlgS. 
 
 AUG, 17, 1820.— At a very early hour many in* 
 dividuals hoping that their assiduity would procure 
 for them an opportunity of witnessing the progress 
 of this interesting inquiry, assembled in the neigh- 
 bourliood of the house of lords. Those, however, 
 who did not bear with them the passport of a noble 
 lord, or were unconnected with the public press, 
 were very much disappointed. Their early rising, 
 as far as their curiosity was concerned, was fruitless. 
 Soon after nine o'clock the peers began to take 
 their seats in the body of the house ; and several 
 members of the house of commons, amongst whom 
 we observed Mr. Tierney, Mr. Calcraft, Mr. Gren- 
 fell, &c. took up stations near the throne. The 
 space reserved for the queen's counsel, the short- 
 hand writer, &e. was provided with three small 
 desks. On these five ink-stands were placed, with 
 
( ii ) 
 
 a supply of pens, ink, paper, and wafers. No seats 
 were prepared, but chairs w^e subsequently sup- 
 plied. As 10 o'clock approached the peers arrived 
 in considerable numbers. At 25 minutes to nine 
 the lord-chancellor arrived, and took his seat on 
 the woolsack. T^e lord bishop of Landaff, as the 
 junior bishop, then read prayers. Soon afterwards 
 Sir Charles Abbott (chief-justice of the king's- 
 bench), together with Mr. justice Holroyd and Mr. 
 justice Best, entered the house. They were soon 
 after followed by lord chief-baron Richards and 
 Mr. baron Garrow. The lord chief justice of the 
 court of common pleas arrived immediately after- 
 wards. At 10 o'clock precisely the order of the 
 house was read for calling over the names of the 
 peers by Mr. Cooper, deputy derk of parliament. 
 
 The preliminary business having been gone through, 
 
 The Earl ofLivemool moved, that the order of the day or 
 the second reading of the bill of Pains and Penalties be now 
 read. 
 
 The Duke of Leinster immediately rose and said, that, in 
 conformity with the notice he had given on a previous day, 
 he would, in this early stage, oppose the measure now about 
 to be brought under their consideration. He would not, how- 
 ever, intrude much on their lordships' time. The best way, 
 he believed, to bring it to a point was to move " That the 
 said order be now rescinded.*' 
 
 The Lord Chancellor then put the question. 
 
 The cry of " Content," was feeble, that of " Not content" 
 was very powerful. 
 
 The Dulce of Leinster demanded a division. 
 
 Strangers were ordered to withdraw, when the numbers 
 weie — 
 
 Content!, 4l | Non-contents, 206 | Majority, 165. 
 
( ni ) 
 
 On our re-admission below the bar the order of the day 
 was read ; after which it was moved by the earl of Liverpool 
 that counsel should be called in and heard in support of the 
 preamble of the bill. 
 
 The Earl of Carnarvon then rose, and in a speech of con- 
 siderable length, replete with sound argument, stated his rea- 
 tons for opposing the preseht proceeding. He objected 
 to it because it was inconsistent with the public interests^ 
 and also because he felt that it was inconsistent with their 
 lordships* honour. He felt such strong objections to a bill 
 of this kind, that he could hardly conceive any cause suflB- 
 ciently forcible to induce him to vote for such a proceeding. 
 But if any case existed in which he could bring his mind to 
 sup{X)rt a bill of pains and penalties, it must be one of abso- 
 lute necessity. 
 
 A discussion now took place as to the propriety of the 
 course about to be pursued towards the queen, and as to 
 whether the crime imputed to her did not amount to high 
 treason, and therefore subject to a mode of proceeding dif- 
 ferent to a bill of pmns and penalties. ^ Earl Grey, earl 
 Liverpool, and the marquis of Lansdown took ^rt. The 
 questions which arose were then submitted to the opinion of 
 tne judges ; and those learned judges having retired, after an 
 absence of 20 minutei, the lord chief justice Abbott delivered 
 their united opinion to the following effect : 
 
 " The judges have conferred together upon the question 
 proposed to them by the house, whether, if a foreigner, ow- 
 mg no allegiance to the crown of England violates in a foreign 
 coimtry the wife of the king's eldest son, and she consentit 
 thei-eto, she commits high treason, within the meaning of the 
 act of the 25th Edward III. ? And we are of opinion that 
 such an individual, under such circumstances, does not com- 
 knit high treason, within the meaning of that act." This opi- 
 iiion, his lordship continued, was grounded upon the language 
 of that statute of Edward III., which declared it to be trea- 
 son for any man to violate the wife of the king, the wife of 
 the king's eldest son, Src. ; the judges holding that, unless 
 there were a man who could be legally charged with such a 
 violation, the charge being that he did thfe act against his al- 
 ^giance ; it could not be said that treason had Been commit- 
 ted. An act done by a foreigner, therefore, owing no alle- 
 giance to the crown, could not amount to that crime. 
 
 The question that counsel be called in was then put and 
 carried, when the folding doors l>ehind the bar were thrown 
 open, and Messt-s. Brougham, Denman, Lushington, Wil- 
 liams, Tindal, and Wild, followed by Mr. Vizard, appeared 
 on behalf of her majesty. A moment after, th^ attorney and 
 
( iv ) 
 
 soliritor-geneFal, tlie king's advocate, Dr. Adam, and Mr. 
 Park, entered by tlie door commonly appropriated to stran- 
 gers. They were attended by the solicitor to the treasury, 
 and by Mr. Powell, who attended the Milan commission. 
 
 As soon as the counsel presented themselves at the bar, 
 
 The' Duke of Hamilton requested to know by what autho- 
 rity the attorney-general stood in that place ? on what part 
 he appeared ? and by whom he had been instructed to ap- 
 pear? 
 
 The Earl oflAoerpool understood the attorney-general ap- 
 peared in consequence of an order received from the house. 
 He had taken those steps which to him seemed best for the 
 purpose of obtaining information. He had applied for in- 
 formation to the secretary of state for the home department, 
 and with that and such other information as bad been ob- 
 tained, he now appeared for the purpose of opening the case. 
 
 The Ditke of Hamiltmi acquiesced in the explanation of 
 lord Liverpool. 
 
 Mr. Brougham then said, that he humbly conceived the 
 time was now come when, under the authority of their lord- 
 ships themselves, he wa* free to state his objections to the 
 principle of the bill. It appealed to him that, before any 
 evidence was received, and laying entirely out of view the 
 truth or falsehood of the allegations which it contained, he 
 had now a right to contend against the measure, both as im- 
 politic and unjust. Admitting for the sake of argument that 
 all those allegarions were true (not one of which, ne was pre- 
 
 Eared to re-assert, had the slightest colour or foundation), 
 ut making the admission with a full conviction that neither 
 the sagacity nor knowledge of their lordships would allow 
 them to misinterpret it, still he had to demur, still to object, 
 for powerful reasons, to the further progress of this measure. 
 His objections were of a nature and kind not to be weakened 
 or interfered with by any proof of the facts which constituted 
 the foundation of this proceeding. He now therefore hum- 
 bly prayed to be allowed, if not as a matter of right and jus- 
 tice, as matter of indulgence, to be heard against the principle 
 of the bill in this present stage of its progress. 
 
 Counsel was then ordered to withdraw, but retired only a 
 iew steps from the bar. After a few minutes it was commu- 
 nicated to them that they were at liberty to urge their objec- 
 tions to the principle of the bill, either at that time, or after 
 the evidence was conGlude*d. 
 
 Mr. Brougham then commenced his general address to 
 their lordships against any further proceedings mth the bill 
 of pains and penalties on the queen. Such laws were some- 
 times passed m the earker periods of the Roman history, and 
 were denominated 2?rii?i/6g'/a. They were divided into two 
 
( V ) 
 
 classes : one consisting of laws passed against, and the other 
 of laws passed in favour of, individuals. The great Roman 
 jurisconsults, however, who well knew the value of their ex 
 pressions, as well as of the principles which they established, 
 had called all such laws privilegia odiosa^ thereby indicating 
 to aftertimes, that they ought never to be resorted to except 
 in cases of absolute necessity. He would not say that all 
 those whom the great masters of ancient jurisprudence served 
 had governed their conduct by that principle. On the con- 
 traiy, he was well aware that no blacker proceedings were to 
 be found than some of these privilegia odiosa. Another ob- 
 jection to the present bill, was, that it was an ex-post facto 
 law : it suffered a deed to be done, and afterwards pronoun- 
 ced upon its innocence or its guilt. Without notice or warn- 
 ing, it laid hold of a party, and inflicted punishment with 
 the same severity as if the supposed crime had been distinctly 
 defined, and the punishment denounced. The bills passed 
 against Mortimer and others at the commencement of Ed- 
 ward III.'s reign, were afterwards rescinded, as was also the 
 case with most of those passed during the reign of Richard 
 III. The succeeding age was almost sure to guard them as 
 measures adopted to serve a temporary purpose. He did 
 not think it necessary, at this stage of the proceeding, to make 
 any reference to the reign of Henry YIII., and he should 
 therefore pass over the whole history of that barbarous and 
 detested prince ; detestable alike for his spoliations of property 
 and his cruelty to his family ; but still more detestable for 
 his violation of the dearest and most sacred charities. He 
 should', therefore take his stand upon what had passed under 
 milder reigns, and the case of lord Strafford, under Charles 
 I., would be sufficient for his argument. He considered the 
 bill of attainder passed against that nobleman as the greatest 
 disgrace that ever sullied the purity of either house of parlia- 
 ment. Had the impeachment been perievered in, the pro- 
 ceeding would have nad the semblance of a judicial inquiry. 
 It would have been quasi judicial, although the principles of 
 justice would even tnen have been violated while its forms 
 were half observed. But he now alluded to the bill of attain- 
 der, and desired to remind their lordships of the sense enter- 
 tained of it by their ancestors, and by that country of which 
 they were the ornament. He would read to them the record- 
 ed sentiments of those ancestors, because no language of his 
 could make so deep an impression as this was calculated to 
 make on the hearts and understandings of all men. After 
 stating, that, under various pretexts, the turbulent party, 
 hostile to lord Strafford, seeing no mode of obtaining their 
 object by any ordinary procedure, had resolved to effect that 
 nobleman's destruction (meaning not onlv his bodily destruc- 
 
VI 
 
 tion, but that of his diaraeter). And, therefore^ purposely 
 mardered him. The bill reverftng the attainder enacted 
 that all records and copies of proc^eaings relative to that at- 
 tainder should be wholly <sancelled, defaced, and obliterated, 
 in order that they might not be visible in after ages, or 
 brought into precedent to the prejudice of any person what- 
 ever. The present bill, substituting, for death, deprivation 
 of rank the most illustrious, removal from a station the most 
 exalted, and the loss of jHivUeges the most esteemed amongst 
 women — aye, and what was yet deJirer,* the ruin of her cha- 
 racter and happiness— belonged strictly and technically to 
 that class of enactments which their lordship' predecessors 
 had thus characterized. When that part of the bill which 
 provided for destroying the records was omitted, the omis- 
 sion was made out of a still greater hatred of the proceeding, 
 and v*^ith a view of keeping it as a land-mark of what it was 
 most important and necessary to avoid in future. He had 
 thus stated his general objections to all bills of this nature, 
 and he had now to address himself to the one immediately be- 
 fore them. He should form but an inadequate approxima- 
 tion to the understanding of this libel if he believed it to be 
 only like other bills of pains and penalties ; for he would ven- 
 ture to say, that the worst of those bills, (not excepting even 
 those relating to the wives of Henry VIII.) was, when com- 
 pared with the present, a regular, consistent, and judicial 
 Sroceedmg. In the first instance he assumed that nothing 
 legal could be laid to her majesty's charge. He was bouna 
 to assume this by the decision of the judges, and, indeed, 
 from the very face of the proceeding. If there was any pos- 
 sibility of proceeding at law, their lordships could not enter- 
 tain this oill for a single moment ; but, because nothing 
 illegal had been done, they were asked to proceed in this, 
 manner. It did not, however, follow that a judicial investi- 
 gation might not take place. Impeachment was a remedy 
 for cases not cognizable by the ordmary juri^ictions. The 
 house of common* might impeach for whatever was indictable,^ 
 but they might also impeach in cases where no indictment 
 could be found. He submitted> therefore^ that some satis- 
 factory reasons ought to be stated why impeachment was not 
 resorted to in this instance. An impeachment was pending 
 in lord Strafibrd's case> when his enemies j finding that it was 
 not likely to answer their purpose, had recourse to a bill of 
 attainder. He felt himself justified in asfiUming that some 
 considerations of 4he same kind had led to the present 
 extraordinary measure. Was the case such, that no house 
 of commons could be expected to pass a vote upon it? or 
 was the evidence so lame and defective, that no committee 
 would recommend any proceedings in relation to it? Why 
 
( vii ) 
 
 had they not confidently trusted to that house, and takett 
 their papers and their witnesses where an impeachmeni 
 might be founded upon them, and where their lordships 
 would have to administer justice in the regular and esta^ 
 blished form ? Her majesty was deprived of many ad^ 
 vantages by this adoption of a different course. In the 
 other case she would have been furnished with some specifi- 
 cation of the charges, or at least they would have been set 
 forth with more peculiarity of detail as to the various points 
 of the accusation. Perhaps also a list of witnesses could not 
 then have been withheld, and, in a word, the queen would 
 have had all the advantages of a real judicial proceeding* 
 Now he would not say that the present measure might not 
 be carried on in the spirit of justice, but in every other re- 
 spect it was as unlike a just measure as any to be found re- 
 corded in the annals of parliament. When a body of men 
 were assembled, and- engaged in conducting a measure in the 
 manner usual in. legislation, it was not to be marvelled at 
 that a party should prefer the same men sitting' in a judicial 
 character, and deciding upon their honor, to their proceed^ 
 ing in a legislative way amidst conflicting opinions, after re- 
 peated separation, and without any of the forms of an ordi- 
 nary court of justice. But the charge here, as he had al- 
 ready said, was not of any illegal act, and the whole proceed- 
 ing was legislative, and not judicial. He was, therefore, let 
 in to discuss the expediency as well as the justice of this pro- 
 secution. He was at liberty to contend that it was impolitic 
 and mischievous, even if founded upon the most unquestion- 
 able testimony. The case of I^ord Strafford, and the pro- 
 ceedings to which it led, as well as the protests of the virtu- 
 ous minority who opposed the bill — all went to prove that 
 such measures could only be justified in order either to save 
 the state from ruin, or because justice had failed from some 
 positive default in a court competent to administer it. With 
 regard to precedents he would refer only to that of bishop 
 Atterbury, the protest on which was signed by thirty noble 
 lords. The hghts and ornaments of the times m which they 
 lived.^ It was drawn up by Lord Chancellor Cowper, and 
 it resisted the measure, because, as the protest stated, *' no- 
 thing but absolute necessity to avoid pain, or a direct failure 
 of justice, could authorise such a proceeding." The burden 
 of proof on the necessity of this bill being thrown on the 
 other side, he would ask, where was that impelling and over- 
 ruling necessity (he did not say motive, for that might be 
 guessed) which alone could prescribe and iustify this mea 
 sure ? Was the succession or its purity endangered, or was 
 there even a possibility of its being put in jeopardy ? If l.er 
 majesty had been brought to trial under the statute of Ed 
 
( viii ) 
 
 Vard III. he was quite ready to allow that he could not te-' 
 sist the unavoidable presumption of law, that the royal suc- 
 cession was endangered. It would be childish and senseless 
 to argue against that presumption^ which was made for 
 general and not for particular cases. But here he stood 
 upon a different ground : this case was an exception to all 
 others^ and he had a right to argue upon the fact, because 
 there was no existing law to govern it. Here he was entitled 
 to ask, Why proceed with this bill without necessity ? Why 
 attack the qu^en for acts which, if committed, could not 
 endanger the succession ? This was not a trial under any 
 known law ; and if the possibility of danger of this kind 
 were established, he allowed that one* of the preliminary 
 objections to the bill had been removed. But he called upon 
 its supporters to show how the succession was endangered. 
 If there were a chance that the succession might fail for 
 want of heirsj some such change might be desirable ; but it 
 could not be contended that such a contingency wsis at all 
 likely here to happen. It was said, that the exalted station 
 of her majesty rendered her conduct an. object of peculiar 
 solicitude with her family, and that the legislature was bound 
 to protect the honour of that family ; that her majesty's con- 
 duct tended to degrade the throne on which she sat, and the 
 nation over which she was placed ; and it was contended^ 
 therefore, that the connection existing between her and the 
 nation must be broken, because her conduct would sully its 
 purity. First of all he might be permitted to ask, whether 
 it had never struck their lordships that these charges all re- 
 ferred to the conduct of her majesty before she became 
 queen, when she had no royal dignity to support, when she 
 had no immediate connection with the diadem j and when she 
 was only the wife of a subject, though filling i the highest 
 station in the realm ? But see how this operated on another 
 most important part of the question* If the queen had been ' 
 brought before the house when Princess of Wales, and 
 charged \^ith offences alleged to be done in that capacity, 
 could any man deny that a bill of divorce from her royal 
 husband must have been the remedy^ and that divorce could 
 only be obtained with the ordinary forms ? All the prelimi- 
 nary forms must have been observed ; the j^arty claiming 
 the bill must have come into the house by petition, and he^ 
 would come in vain, if he did not enter it with clean hands. 
 But here the promoters of this measure waited till the queea 
 had lost her rank as Princess of Wales, and until that rank 
 was almost forgotten; and then they said, because she is 
 now queen we will proceed against her for offences alleged 
 to have been committed when she was princess of Wales,- 
 thus taking especial care not to take one step while she pos- 
 
. ( ix ) 
 
 teised those rights against her husband which erery private 
 wife enjoyed. He did not say that those rights were ex- 
 tinct, but some persons did assert it, and that was enough 
 for his argument. Thus the question now was, not between 
 man and wife, " but between king and queen, and the pro- 
 moters of this bill delayed till they thouglit at least that she 
 was deprived of one protection. Either, then, this bill must 
 be dismissed for having been brought in too late, or there 
 was not a shadow of justice in not giving her nunc pro tunc, 
 as lawyers expressed it, the benefit of her situation as prin=- 
 cess of Wales. This brought him to implore their lord^ 
 ships to pause awhile on the threshold of this proceeding. 
 " I put out of view (said Mr. B.) at present the question of 
 recrimination : I raised it for the purpose of my argument^ 
 and I shall pursue it no further. I should be most deeply, 
 and I may say with perfect truth unfeignedly afflicted, if in 
 the progress of diis ill-omened question, tlie necessity were 
 imposed upon me of mentioning it again ; and I should act 
 directly in the teeth of the instructions of this illustrious wo- 
 man [pointing to the queen, who sat immediately below 
 him], I should disobey her solemn commands if I again used 
 even ^e word recrimination without being driven to it by 
 an absolute and overruling compulsion. In obedience to 
 the same high command I lay Out of view, as equally incon- 
 sistent with my own feelings and those of my client, all ar- 
 guments of another description in which I might be tempted 
 to show that levity or indiscretion, criminality, or even cri- 
 minal intercourse (for why should I be afraid to use the 
 term ?) cannot be held to be fatal to the character of the 
 coimtry, or to the honour and dignity of the illustrious fa- 
 mily governing it. Here nothing is or has been proved ; 
 and is \t because calumnies have been bruited and gossipped 
 about — because such a jealous watch has been kept upon 
 the queen abroad, that we are to think they are to have more 
 force than conduct le% equivocal at home ? That argu- 
 ment, and every thing resulting from it, I willingly postpone 
 till the day of necessity ; and in the same way I dismiss for 
 the present all other questions respecting the conduct or 
 connections of any parties previous to marriage. These I 
 say not one word about ; they are dangerous and tremend- 
 ous questions, the consequences of discussing which, at the 
 present moment, I will not even trust myself to describe. 
 At present I hold them to be needless to the safety of my 
 client ; but when the necessity arrives, an advocate knows 
 but one duty, and, cost what it may, he must discharge it. 
 Be the consequences what they may, to any other persons, 
 powers, principalities, dominions, or nations, an advocate is 
 Dound to do his duty; and I shall not fail to exert every 
 
 C 
 
( X ) 
 
 means iti my power to put a stop to tkis bill. But when I 
 am told that a case of absolute necessity for the measure is 
 made out, because the queen has been guilty of improper 
 familiarities (though I must look at the bill itself for the 
 nice distinctions and refined expressions found in it) — be- 
 cause she has thought fit to raise from low situations, ofii- 
 cers who had served other people in menial capacities — be- 
 cause she had treated them with unbecoming intimacy — 
 because she had advanced them, and bestowed mark^ of 
 favour and distinction upon them— because she had created 
 an order, and conducted herself in public and private with 
 offensive familiarity — I cannot help asking, if these matters 
 are so fatal to the honour and dignity of the crown, nay, to 
 the very peace of the nation (for what else can justify a bill 
 like this ?) why it is only resorted to at the present moment ? 
 The bill charges even a licentious, disgraceful, and adulter- 
 ous intercourse, and therefore its supporters say, it is abso- 
 lutely necessary for the house to interpose. But I appeal 
 to the house — for I am compelled to do so— whether this is 
 not only untrue, but whether it is not known to be untrue. 
 The bill itself speaks falsely, and I will tell you why I say 
 so. Are we arnved in this age, at that highest pitch of po- 
 lish in society, when we shall be afrmd to call things by 
 their proper names, yet shall not scruple to punish by ex- 
 press laws an offence in the weaker sex which has been passed 
 over in the stronger ? Have we indeed reached that stage ? 
 I trust I shall not hear it said in this place : I hope that 
 spirit of justice which I believe pervades this house at large 
 will prevent it. But if not I will appeal to the spirit of 
 holiness, and to the heads of the church now ranged before 
 me, whether aduttery is to be considered only a crime in wo- 
 man. I make the same confident appeal, and to the same 
 quarter, when I ask whether the crown can be dishonored, 
 the fame of the country tarnished, and the morals of the 
 people put in jeopardy, if an adulterous intercourse (which 
 no one ventures to call adultery) shall be proved against a 
 lady, when that which I venture to call adultery, because 
 the exalted individual himself has confessed it to be so, has 
 actually been committed by a prince. It is with the utmost 
 pain that I make this statement : it is wrung from me by 
 nard compulsion ; for there is not a man who acknowledges 
 with a deeper sense of gratitude than I do all the obligations 
 which this country and Europe owes to that illustrious in- 
 dividual. I say it not — God forl»d I should — to visit 
 harshly upon him any of the failings of our common nature, 
 much less to alter in one iota my recorded sense of the base- 
 ness of that eenspiracy by which those faihngs were dragged 
 before the public I bring it forward becausi it i» in truth 
 
( xi ) 
 
 an answer to this case. Why was no bi}l of deffradation 
 brought in in 1809, after the resolution of the House of 
 Commons, and a full confession on behalf of the party ac 
 cused, that he had been guilty of " most immoral and unbe- 
 coming conduct?" All this, I say, was well known to the 
 aut))ors of the present bill ; for one of themselves penned 
 the very words I have just read to the house. 1 ask, there- 
 fore, whether there it any possibility of replying to this ob- 
 jection, but in one short way — that all men may do all they 
 please, however exalted their station, however intimately 
 connected with the Crown, and with the highest interests of 
 the state, that their conduct is perfectly indifferent ; but let 
 the tooth of slander once fix upon a defenceless female of 
 the family, who has been residing abroad, who has been al- 
 lowed to expatriate herself; who has been assisted in re- 
 moving from the country, and even cherished to keep away 
 from it; then, at that instant, the venom must distil, and 
 •he must be persecuted and prosecuted, under the canting, 
 hypocritical, and disgusting pretence that the character of 
 the country and the honour of the crown are at stake. 
 Whether all of us, nearer to the object, do or do not see 
 through the flimsy pretext, be assured that the good sense 
 of the nation cannot be deceived, and that those at a dis- 
 tance will be both shocked and astonished. The people at 
 large must look upon it as something too ridiculous to be 
 examined. I myself can hardly use decorous terms in speak- 
 ing of it, and they, in their homely language, will assert 
 that it is an attempt to accomplish one purpose under the 
 colour of another. ** Here is a man," they will say, " who 
 wishes to get rid of his wife ; he talks of the honour and 
 safety of the country ; yet its dearest interests, its peace, its 
 morals, and its happiness, are'to be sacrificed to gratify his 
 desires." He would ask who had encouraged the queen to 
 go abroad ? When that illustrious personage, worn out by 
 all she had experienced in this country, naturally began to 
 think repose a blessing, who had recommended that she 
 should seek it on the Continent ? Who had opposed the ad- 
 vice given by the friends of the queen, to which they had 
 set their handstand he (Mr. Brougham) among them, that 
 they would answer with their heads for her safety while in 
 England, but that when abroad she would be surrounded 
 by foreigners, spies, and informers ? Who ^ad counteracted 
 this faithful suggestion ? Who but those who were now ar- 
 rayed against her, with a green bag of documentary evidence 
 in the one hand, and this . bill of degradation in the other ? 
 How happened it that they never before thought of the cha- 
 racter of the country, the honour of the royal family, and 
 the dignity of the throne ? Where was their boosted sagacic- 
 
( xii ) 
 
 ty, '.when these evil counsellors could not foresee what might 
 be tne consequences of the step they were so earnestly re- 
 commending ? Then there was no whisper of any thing of 
 the sort; all was to be ease, tranquillity, and liberty, for the 
 rest of her majesty's life : there was to be no watching, no 
 prying, no spying, no asking " why do you do so or so P" 
 but all was to be kindness and toleration. With these pro- 
 mises, the next thing was to assist the queen to depart. The 
 ship of war, which was refused to bring her back, had been 
 reaaily granted to take her away. Money was also offered, 
 with equal liberality, for her outfit, and her residence abroad 
 commenced imder the happiest auspices. Yet reports soon 
 came GfVer ; they increased by degrees ; the slander became 
 blacker and more malignant ; and as early as four years ago 
 it had assumed a certain consistency. Still there was no 
 jealous watching, no hunting for eridence, and no hint given 
 to the queen that it would be fit to be more guarded in her 
 conduct : the character of t^e country and the honour of the 
 crown were then never dreamed of. Ministers had never 
 said, " Return ; this is dangerous— the country suffers — the 
 crown is dishonoured — the royal family degraded by these 
 calumnious reports.'* On th^ contrary, they had done every 
 thing' to encourage her staying; and he (Mr. Brougham) 
 would venture to stake his existence that any man would 
 have been deemed an enemy, and have had the court doors 
 flung in his face, who should have had the hardihood to 
 counsel that her royal highness should have been requested 
 to re-visit this country. Yet these very men, after forcing 
 her away — .after aiding, abetting, and encouraging a foreign 
 residence — after taking no one step to put an end to that 
 which they themselves alleged to be the sole cause of the 
 evil : even at the twelfth hour, and Avhen the twelfth hour 
 was about to toll, did they then come with a request that she 
 should return ? Did they then suggest that her majesty, 
 having changed her station, could no longer live abroad 
 with safety — that what might be good for a princess was evil 
 for a queen ? Did they come forward with any plain frank 
 disclosure that some enquiry might be rendered necessary — :. 
 that reports had got abroad so malignant tliat they could not 
 be overlooked — that suspicion attached, and that that suspi- 
 cion must be removed.?^ Was any thing of this sort done, 
 not in kindness to the queen, but m compassion to the long- 
 suffering people of England now agitated by this great ques- 
 tion ? No such thing: to the last moment she was warned 
 not to come back : she was to be pensioned, largely pension- 
 ed, for not coming home ; and she was tJ enjoy the rank she 
 had degraded and the privileges she had forfeited. She was 
 lo have an income to enable her to be wicked on a larger 
 
( xiii ) 
 
 scale ; all levity, all indiscretion, even ** ladulterous inter-, 
 course," was to be pardoned on one fcondition, and that con- 
 dition was, that she should continue abroad, before the eyes 
 of foreigners who envied and hated us : she was to be the 
 degrading spectacle of the queen of this country, without 
 one of the virtues that ought to belong to her sex and her- 
 condition. With these facts before him, he must have a 
 mind capable of swallowing the most monstrous improbabili- 
 ties who could lend himself for one moment to the behef that 
 ministers gave credit to the preamble of the bill. It would 
 never have been heard of if the queen liad returned from 
 Calais ; but her landing at Dover called up all those phan- 
 toms of national degradation and insulted honor, of which 
 so much had recently been heard : they were all raised by 
 the foot which she set upon the English shore ; and if she 
 h.ad consented to restrain it, she might still have lived with- 
 out imputation, at least from the quarter in which it now 
 originated. '• I end here (said Mr. Brougham) what Ihave 
 to urge, not that I have nothing more to bring forward, but 
 because I am sure that your Lordships are men of justice, 
 that you are men of principle, men of ordinary sagacity, and, 
 above all, that you are men of honour. I nave made my 
 appeal to you upon this bill, and I feel confident that I have 
 not made it in vain. True it is that vour committee has 
 reported in its favour, but that cannot pledge the house, and 
 he is the greatest of all fools who consults his apparent con- 
 sistency at the expence of his absolute ruin. Fhe sooner 
 you retrace the step into which you may have been led at 
 an unwary moment, the greater will be the service you ren- 
 der your country ; if you decide that this bill ought not to 
 proceed, you will be the saviours of the state, and indeed 
 promote the substantial welfare of the kingdom, and the 
 truest honour of the crown." 
 
 Mr. Denman having requested time, the Lord Chancellor 
 said that the house would proceed to-morrow, and that only 
 two counsel would be heard for or against the bill. — Adjourn- 
 ed at a quarter past four. ^ 
 
 SECOND DAY. 
 
 The counsel and agents were then called in. 
 
 Mr. Denman presented himself at the bar, and in a 
 speech distinguished as much for eloquence as it was for 
 sound argument, argued against the principle of the bill. 
 I trust, (said the learned counsel) your lordships will, above 
 all things, seriously weigh the balance of evil which is likely 
 to arise from this measure. I trust also, that you will not, 
 yourselves, overlook any matter which is calculated to in- 
 
( xiv ) 
 
 ^uire, OP produce a disregard for the marriage tie. Look, 
 my lords, to the moral feelings of the country, which this 
 measure is calculated to outrage. Observe that all this can- 
 not be productive of any good— but must, be the result what 
 it may, produce infinite harm to the country. I must here» 
 on the pait of her majest3r, protest against any proceeding 
 l^ biil of pains and penalties, when 3ie scene is laid in a 
 foreign and distant land, when the enquiry is to be into a 
 life of more than six years, and when the accused has been 
 refused a list of the witnesses against her. This last re« 
 fusal placed her majesty in a worse situation than any 
 person taking his trial m one of the lower courts. The 
 request made to your lordships was, in fact, that this 
 great principle migjit be preserved, but modified accord- 
 ing to your ^lordships* pleasure, so as to avoid inconve- 
 nience. This, however, has been refused. In the case of 
 a charge in the lower courts the witnesses appeared before 
 a grand jury, and the accused had an opportunity of as- 
 certaining the character of the persons by whom the ac- 
 cusation was to be supported. But her majesty has been 
 denied this right. 1 nerefore instead of having received, 
 any favour at the hands of your lordships, she has every 
 right to complain. Again, I say, that in her majesty's 
 name I protest against this bill of pains and penalties in 
 a ca^e which admits of impeachment. I suso protest 
 against your lordships not discharging the duties imposed 
 on you, as well as your exercise of a power not contem« 
 plated by the constitution. Your lordships may meet 
 with the co-operation of the 'other branch of the legisla- 
 ture ; but be it remembered, that you may also meet with 
 its check and controul. I mu*t here guard myself from 
 any imputation, from what I have said, that either I or 
 my learned friends are declining the contest. No ; we 
 do not shrink from the combat— we are ready and anxious 
 to meet it. Here I feel it my duty to state, that I owe 
 to my illustrious client an apology, for having, iii the 
 line of argument which I have been obliged to take, al- 
 lowed even a possibility of the truth of the charges against 
 her. I feel a perfect conviction of her innocence ; I feel 
 also, that there cannot be brought against her any thing, 
 which, to an honourable mind, will be a proof of her guilt. 
 But whatever be the consefi[uences which follow this inves- 
 -tigation, whatever may be the sufferings inflicted on her ma- 
 jesty, I shall never withdraw from her that homage and re- 
 spect which I owe to her high station, her superior mind, 
 and those resplendent virtues which have shone through a 
 life of persecution and of suffering. I shall never pay to 
 any other who may usurp her place that respect and duty 
 
( XV ) 
 
 which belong to Ker, whom the law^ of Ood and man hwr« 
 made the consort of hit present majesty, and the partn^- of 
 his throne. 
 
 Her majesty entered the house during the learned coun- 
 sel's speech, and at its conclusion withdrew. — She was treated 
 by the house with every mark of respect. 
 
 The Attorney-general then rose and said, the question to 
 be considered was, whether th^ would entertain the grave 
 and solemn, but disgusting charges p referred against her 
 majesty — or whether they were prepared to say, that not- 
 withstanding' the proof to be adauced, there was something 
 in this bill tnat it ought not to be followed up by the enact- 
 ments contained in the preamble ? This was his view of 
 the question before their lordships. But see how it had been 
 argued by his learned friends. T«hey had argued the ques- 
 tion as if the preamble had not been proved, and yet they 
 had indulged themselves in talking of spies, informers, per- 
 jured and suborned witnesses. When those witnesses had 
 given their testimony, the time would come to speak of their 
 character and the nature of their testimony. This line of 
 proceeding was, in fact, nothing more nor less than tampe- 
 ring with their lordships' feehngs, and doubtless it must 
 have made an impression upon their minds. His learned 
 friendsy had also placed another difficulty in his way. They 
 had found feult with the framing of the preamble, and not 
 satisfied with^ that, had gone through its whole history } 
 They attacked the proceedings of the secret committee, and 
 went on to shew the disadvantages under which her ma- 
 jesty laboured, in consequence of not haviug her case 
 brought before a grand jury. But their lordships had 
 decided that this was the only mode of proceeding ; they 
 had decided, that the crime with which ner majesty was 
 accused, though if committed in England would be trea- 
 fon, could not be so construed, having been committed 
 abroad, and with a foreigner. They had in fact decided 
 that her majesty was not amenable to any of our courts 
 of justice, and this was the only mode of proceeding 
 which could be instituted. Their lordships instituted this 
 inquiry on the report of a secret committee ; this, it W9H 
 urged, deprived her majesty of the benefit derived from a 
 grand jury. But did the committee fjnd her majesty 
 guilty of any one charge ? They merely said, that from 
 what had been laid before them, they were o£ opinion, 
 that there was serious ground of charge against her ma- 
 jesty, affecting the dignity of the crown, and they recom- 
 mended the nouse to proceed to an enquiry. See then, 
 how the arguments of his leai^ed friei.as were applied — 
 first, they found fault with the preamble of the bill ; and. 
 
( xvi ) 
 
 secondly, they quarrelled with the measure itself, which 
 their lordships, by their having read it the first time, haii 
 sanctioned. It was urged that the secret committee had 
 reported upon un vouched documents. He had no means 
 of knowing upon what statements the secret committee re- 
 ported, nor did he know from whence his learned friends 
 drew their information ; but he was much mistaken if the 
 select committee had not had the sworn testimony of wit- 
 nesses in support of the statements laid before them. But 
 whether they had or not such testimony was not now the 
 question ; their lordships had decided upon that report, and 
 that decision could not now be called in question. The 
 grounds alleged in the preamble of the present bill were 
 of the same public nature and import as those stated in 
 the bill against the bishop of Rochester. When the facts 
 recited were proved in evidence, the great question which 
 their lordships would have to decide, would be, whether 
 such a substantiation of the truth of the facts should be 
 follo^ved by the enactment of the bill ? It had been endea- 
 voured by his learned friends to raise an objection to the 
 bill, on the ground that the charges which it alleged 
 against her majesty had flowed from slander and perjury* 
 In the present stage of the proceeding, what right he would 
 ask, had they to argue upon such a gratuitous and unpro- 
 voked assumption .'' Where were the proofs to justify it ? 
 Their lordships knew nothing of them — tliey could not 
 know any thing of them; and for what purpose such a 
 Ane of observation was introduced, he would leave to their 
 lordships to decide. In the same spirit, it was objected by 
 his learned friend, that the present bill originated in a com- 
 mittee of that house, where no decisive opinion had been 
 formed. He could not see the least strength in such an 
 objection. The decisive opinion of their lordships h^d 
 yet to be formed. It would be doing a great injustice to 
 her majesty had their lordships, in that previous part of 
 the proceeding, ventured to pronounce a decisive opinion ; 
 it would then be imputed to them that they had fore- 
 stalled and prejudged the question. Their lordships had 
 wisely abstained from such a course. All that they had 
 done was to express their opinion, that there existed grounds 
 for a serious charge against her majesty. Throughout 
 the whole of the argument of his learned friends, that had 
 been assumed, which, at least was extremely doubtful, 
 namely, that in proceeding against her majesty an im- 
 peachment could have been founded. The whole of the 
 argument against proceeding by bill of pains and penalties, 
 rested on the ground of their lordships acting in that case in 
 their legislative, and not in their judicial capacity. When, 
 
( xvii ) 
 
 therefore, his learned friends deprecated such a course, and 
 contended for an impeachment, they were bound to have 
 shewn, that in the present case an impeachment could have , 
 been maintained. 'I'hat proof they had declined ; and 
 their lordships, he trusted, would agree with him, that 
 the wisest course which could have been pursued, was the 
 one which was the least subject to doubt and uncertainty. 
 Besides^ he would confidently say, that notwithstanding all 
 those airs of triumph with which those objections were 
 introduced — notwithstanding all the inflammatory lan^ 
 guage which accompanied their statement, that a very 
 different character would have been given to the measure 
 of proceeding by bill of pains and penalties, had not 
 that been the very measure, which in the present case had 
 been adopted. It was adopted because it adverted to cer- 
 tain charges against her majesty, which^ though of the 
 gravest import, were not a violation of any law, while the 
 best authorities supported the doctrine that an impeach- 
 ment could not be maintained but for a breach of the law. 
 Sure, then, he was, that notwithstanding all the challenges 
 now so heroically thrown out, notwithstanding all those al- 
 lusions to the morality of the country, and all those various 
 topics so liberally brought into view, had impeachment been 
 the proceeding adopted, the very same objectors would have 
 deprecated it, and have said, that the proceeding in the 
 case of an adultery should have been by bill, and not by 
 impeachment, because by the adoption of the latter 
 course, the accused party was deprived of the power of 
 recrimination. They complained of the proceeding by 
 bill, because they were now shut out from recrimination, 
 and strange to say, regret that the impeachment was not 
 adopted— a course of proceeding which no lawyer would 
 venture to assert, allowed the accused to recriminate. All 
 this contradiction had its purposes ; it was to terrify and to 
 alarm, and to withdraw the minds of their lordships from 
 the real question on which they had to decide. His learned 
 friends had, it was to be recollected, taken this course, not 
 in the exercise of a duty compulsive with them, but acting 
 under any indulgence so very rarely allowed by that house 
 — so rarely indeed, that the divorce case of the Duke of 
 Norfolk was the only one to be found where the counsel of 
 the accused was allowed to interfere before the evidence was 
 produced. It was not, then, too much to expect that those 
 sweeping charges should have been deferred until the cha- 
 racter of the evidence to be produced was ascertained ; be- 
 fore the charge of corruption was thrown out against wit- 
 nesses to be examined, surely his learned friends should wait 
 until enabled to sust^un such imputations by proof. His 
 
 c 
 
( xviii ) 
 
 learned friends may prejudge, they rnay prejudice, they may 
 assail the characters of the most eminent and illustrious in 
 rank and station ; they may rake from the shades of oblivion, 
 all those prejudices, or failmgs over which the healing spirit 
 of time and more^ correct feeling had, in consideration of 
 his many virtues, thrown a veil ; they may select the mo- 
 ment when an illustrious individual (the duke of York, we 
 presume) was next in succession to the throne, when the 
 remains of his illustrious partner has just been consigned to 
 the grave, to wound his feelings, and revive recollections 
 whicli a better feeling had never disturbed: all these 
 things his learned friends may do with impunity — to him 
 it was only to state the facts which he should call upon 
 evidence to sustain. They may declaim on the bribes by 
 which that evidence was obtained, and animadvert on the 
 nature of the motives which they presumed to operate on 
 the minds of some of their lordships. All that remained 
 for him was to conjure their loraships, and he knew he 
 did so not in vain, to dismiss all such inapplicable state- 
 ments from their minds, and to apply themselves to the 
 great and important question, on which, in fact, they were 
 called in their judicial character to pronounce. 
 
 The Solicitor-general was next heard at considerable 
 length. 
 
 Mr. Brougham, in reply, urged a variety of arguments in 
 favour of his original proposition, and shewed the impolicy 
 of the principle contended for by the counsel for the crown. 
 
Qyda>r^/^ 
 
 '^77/?^ 
 
 U'/y///^///' 
 
 
 
 /. 
 
 Zondcvi . I'ldi ftj-A'cit -Jua ^ :'o 
 
THE 
 
 LEGISLATORIAL TRIAL 
 
 OF THB 
 
 QUEEN 
 
 COMMENCED AUGUST 19, 1820, 
 
 3n tt)t loust of XorUS* 
 
 THE great and important trial of her 
 Majesty has at length commenced, 
 after the faihire of every attempt to 
 evade it. The expectations of the 
 public vrerf at their height whea Lord 
 Kiu^ gave notice of a motion to stop 
 all farther proceedings. 
 
 On Satnrday, August 19, 1820, Lord 
 Kin? moved, " That it appears to this 
 House tljat it is not necessary for the 
 pnbhc safety or the security of the 
 counti7, tl»at the Bill entifnied * An 
 Act to deprive her Majesty,' 6cc. 
 should pass into a law.** 
 
 On which Lord Liverpool moved as 
 an amendment, " That the Attorney 
 Ueneral be directed to be called in." 
 
 Earl Grey opposed the amendment. 
 
 The Hou-e divided. 
 
 For the Amendment 181 
 Against it 65 
 
 Majority 116 
 
 Karl Grey then moved : *' That it 
 appears tbat the Bill novt before the 
 House docs not afford the most ad- 
 viseable means of pronrcuting the 
 charges against her Majesty, and that 
 tharefore, under the present circnm 
 stances it is not necessary or expe- 
 dient, to proceed further with it." 
 
 This resolution was put as an amend-* 
 
 mcnt to tlie motion of Lord Livert)ool, 
 
 •' That Counsel be called in," and was 
 
 negatived by a division as follows : 
 
 For the amendment 64 
 
 Ajainjt it ^ 179 
 
 I. 
 
 Majority 115 
 
 The Counsel were then called ki 
 and the Attorney General and the 
 Counsel for the crown on the one side, 
 and Mr. Brougham and the Connsel 
 for her Majesty on the other, Appeared 
 at the bar. 
 
 The Lord Chancellor. Mr. Attor- 
 ney General, yon will proceed to open 
 ydur case. 
 
 The A'rrORNEY GENERAL im- 
 mediately proceeded to address the 
 House in a low tone of voice, and 
 spoke as follows : 
 
 MY LORDS, 
 
 " I now attend at your bar to 
 fulfil the duty which you have de>. 
 manded, of stating to your lordships 
 the circumstances which are to be ad- 
 duced in evidence in support of the 
 charges which are contained in the 
 preamble of the Bill now under yowt 
 Lordships' consideration. A duty, my 
 lords, more painful, or more anxious, 
 I believe, was never imposed upon any 
 individual to accomplish. (Cries of 
 ' Speak up.') 
 
 My lords, I am sure I shall receive 
 your lordships' indulgence, if under 
 the weight of this most important duty 
 I feel that which I cannot express. 
 (Cries of * Louder ') 
 
 My lords, I was stating to your 
 lordships, that the duty which I now 
 have to i)erform is one of the most 
 painful and anxious which was ever 
 cast upon any individual. I have, nay 
 lords, to state to your lordships the 
 circumstances which are to be ad- 
 doced iu evidence to your lordsbipt 
 
THE QUEEN S TRIAL. 
 
 in support of Ihow serious and heavy 
 oliarges vrbtGh are made in the pro- 
 amble of the bill] which has already 
 b«QD so mnch the subject of discus- 
 sion. Charges which, In the language 
 of the preamble, not only reflect the 
 greatest scandal and disgrace npon the 
 individual against whom they are 
 luade^ but also reflect the greatest 
 di8|;race upon the country itself. The 
 highest individual, as a subject in the 
 country, is charged with one of the 
 most serious offences both against the 
 laws of God and Man. It is that of an 
 adulterous intercourse — an adulterous 
 iflterconrse carried on under circum- 
 stances of the greatest aggravation. 
 My lords, upon the nature of this 
 charge, or upon the importance of this 
 investigation, it is quite unnecessary 
 for me to enlarge. Your lordships, 
 and every individual in the country, 
 fxe capable of estimating these topics 
 hi their proper light. The only con- 
 solation, my lords, which I derive 
 under the discharge of the dnty whieit 
 I have now to fulfil, is that it calls nut 
 upon me to address myself to your 
 lordships' passions or feelings; and 
 that I shall best discharge it according 
 to your lordship's command by abstain- 
 ing from any observation which might 
 ttnd to aggravate the charge made 
 fegainst so illustrious a person. I siiall 
 confine myself in this stage of the pro- 
 e^edmg to a clear, simple, but full re- 
 <^ttl of the facts which are to be al- 
 leged in evidence. 
 
 My lords, we are now arrived at 
 that period of those proceedings in 
 "which silence can no longer be pre- 
 served. It is^ now necessary to state 
 the charges la the fullest extent in 
 which they can be laid before yonr 
 Jordshipsand, the public ; and if in the 
 .recital of the ci»'cumstances which I 
 have to detail^ J shall be under tlie 
 pokifnl necessity of bringing before 
 your lordsliips scenes which must dis- 
 gustevery well-regulated mind; trans- 
 actions which must offend tlte feelings 
 q£ every honourable and virtuous per- 
 son. I am sure your lordships will thiak 
 that upon this occasion I ought to hold 
 no reserve, at the same time taking 
 cart to state nothing which, in my 
 conscience, I do not believe I shall be 
 able to substantiate in proof. 
 
 t ahall now, my lords, without fur- 
 ther preface, state to your lordships 
 thti painfiU iMirrative of those facts 
 Attd circumsi^acti whieih are to be 
 
 adduced in proof before you. Mv 
 lords, undoubtedly, the recital mu>l 
 involve a considerable space of time 
 and apply to facts which took place in 
 various places, in which her Majestv; 
 chanced to be during her residence 
 abroad. I shall, therefore, commence 
 ray statement at that period when her 
 Majesty quitted this country, and pro- 
 ceed as well as I can to detail the va- 
 rious facts and circnmsJances whicJi 
 took place from that period almost to 
 the time I now have the honour of 
 addressing your Lordships. 
 
 My lords, it is well known to your 
 lordships and the country, that in the 
 year J 814, her Majesty', for redsons^ 
 operating upon her mind, and not by 
 compulsion,, as has been insinuated by 
 my learned brothers, thought fit ta 
 withdraw herself from this country ta 
 a foreign land. 
 
 Mr. Brougham here made some re- 
 marks explanatory of his own observa- 
 tions on this subject. 
 
 The Attorney General. I bej p«r- 
 don^ (cries of " order, order,") but if 
 I am to be interrupted, it will be im- 
 possible for me to do jusiice to the 
 task which your lordships have cast, 
 upon me, I am sure I shall receive 
 your lordships'^ indulgence — 
 
 Mr. Broni^ham. I did not mean to 
 interrupt the learned persou, (cries 6f 
 "order, order,") 
 
 Mr. Brougham. My Lerd, in aU 
 courts, (order, order. ) 
 
 Mr. Brougham. In every Couxty, 
 (order, order. Go on, go on.) 
 
 Mr^ Brougham was rtluctantly si- 
 lent. 
 
 The Attorney General : My Lords^ 
 it was perhaps more my fault than 
 that of my Icained frie*id in alluding' 
 to what had pa*^sed. I will not there- 
 fore take up any farther time on thia 
 subject. I "was stating, my Lords, that 
 in 1 HI 4 her Majesty withdrew herscii 
 from tills country, for the purpose of 
 travelling upon the Continent, or vi- 
 siting other countries. My lords, sh*i 
 went in the iirst instance to Bruns- 
 wick, and from thence, after a short 
 stav, ^he went to Italy ; she arrived at 
 Milan on the-9lh of Oct. 1814.— My 
 lords, her Majesty, when she quitted 
 tliis country, qHttted it with persoB4 
 abont her who were \>recisely 8iich 
 persons as should be atjout an indivi- 
 dual of her exalted rank. She wa» 
 accompanied by individuals eoniiecta 
 ed witk dl^tin|fai«Led families iu tm» 
 
THE ATTOUNEY-GEISERAL's SPEECH, 
 
 iitiRiliorp. Among these were Lady 
 Charlotte Lindsay and Lady Eliza- 
 htth Fovbes, wlio weu- her mauls of 
 hrmor. Mr. St. Ledgt r, who was her 
 Chaniucrlain,andSir WiliUniGcii und 
 the Hon. Keppel€iaven, who, I be- 
 here, were attachtd to her in a Piii.Uar 
 rhar.ictcr. She was also accompanied 
 by Captain Hessf, as her Equerry, 
 hfid Dr. Holland, as her phj>K'jan, 
 besides other pi r»ons whom it m un. 
 necessary to enumerate. VV it this 
 snite her M.jisty arrived at Milan. 
 It was her intention to have proceed- 
 ed from thence to otlierpatts of Italy, 
 and to have visited Naples. She le- 
 mamed at Milan for a space of three 
 months, <;n - during that period a per- 
 MM was received into her .service, 
 whose nauw occurs in the preamble of 
 tins bill, and vvlw-e name will as fie- 
 ouenily occur m ihe course of these 
 }>rocetdu)g8— a person of the name of 
 Ber^ami, who was received into her 
 *ervice 0% a courier, or fbotmau, 
 or valet de place. My Lords, this 
 person at the time he &o entered into 
 her M.ijesty s service was in wajit 
 4>f employment, bathe had been in the 
 ♦ervice of General Pino. It does not 
 ^tppearhow he became recommended 
 toiler Majesty, but he was leceived 
 into her suite. I need hardly remark 
 !to your lordships, upon the distance 
 which interposed oetween her Majesty 
 and her couner, or observe that, from 
 the natural cours* of things, the com- 
 munication between her Majesty and 
 this man must have been must unfie- 
 quent. It was abottl founec n or tif- 
 iffn days previous to her Majesty's 
 (lepartuie from Milan, that Bergami 
 < niered into the situation i have de- 
 scribed. Her Majesty on quitting 
 Milan, proceeded to Rome, ^nd from 
 thence she went to Naples, where she 
 arrived on the 8th of Nov. Ifel4. At 
 Naplef> this person had not been in 
 her Majesty s service more than three 
 week«. I beg to call your Lordships 
 ;4nention to this eueumstauce, be- 
 cause you will hud how material it be- 
 comes when you listen to the facts 
 which presently it will be my nielan- 
 rholy duty to relate. I should have 
 stated, that besides the persons whom 
 I rpentioned as accompanying her Ma- 
 jesty from tlii^ country,, tilt r« was a 
 lad, whose name is perhaps familiar to 
 your lordships — 1 mean William Aus- 
 tin. Up to the time of her Majesty's 
 arrival at Naple«, this lud was the ob- 
 
 ject of her peculiar attentron, and, in 
 fuct, was in the habit of tleeping in -4 
 bed in the same room with her Ma- 
 jesty. '1 he arrangement of her Ma. 
 jestys own sleeping apartment de- 
 volved upon one servant, whose peco- 
 liar duty it was to attend to thut branch 
 of her domestic comfort. On the ar- 
 rival of her Majesty's suite at Naples 
 it was so ordered that her Majesty'* 
 sleepiug room was at an opposite sidf 
 of the house to that of her menial du; 
 mestics, among whom was her courier. 
 On the lirst night of her Majesty's ar- 
 rival at Naples (the 8th of Nov.), to 
 which I have called your lordships' at- 
 tention, this anangement was contir 
 nucd. Beigaini slept in that part of 
 the house which had been prepared for 
 the domestics, and young Austin skpt 
 m her Majesty s apartment. But on 
 the following morning, Nov. the 9tlji, 
 the servants of the establishment learii- 
 ed with some surprise, because no rea- 
 son appeared to them for the change, 
 that Bergami was no longer to sleep in 
 that part of the house where he hail 
 slept the ni^^ht preceding ; but that it 
 was her Majcsiy's pleasure that Lie 
 should sleep in a room from whii2|i 
 there was a free communication with 
 tliat of her Majesty, by means of a cor- 
 ridor or passaj^e, which imd been, by 
 her Majesty's express desire, prepared 
 for him. My lords, I need not state 
 to you that such a circumstance Wzis 
 calculated to evcite the surprise at' 
 those whose duty it was to attend en- 
 tirely to her Majesty's person; and, 
 my lords, that surprise was increaso|d 
 vviien tliey learnt from her Majesty 
 that she would no lojiger permit Wil- 
 liam Austin to continue to sleep in her 
 room. For this she assigned a reason, 
 which, if it waii her only motive, was 
 very proper. .">he said tliat he had now 
 arrived at an age when it became no 
 longer correct that" he should sleep in 
 her apartment; and a separate room 
 was prepared for his use. My lordii, 
 1 have already stated that,' from the 
 situation assigned to Bergami, a direct 
 communication was opened between 
 his chamber and that of her Majesty ; 
 and I believe that I shall be aDle to 
 satisfy your lordships tliat on tbe 
 evening of the 9th of N ovember, that 
 intercourse, which is charged between 
 her Majesty and Bcrgaiiu by the pre- 
 seut bill, commenced and was ccnti> 
 nned from that iimo till h* quitted 
 her »ervice. t pou tlie evening of tj^ 
 
TttlAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 9t!i of November, her Majesty went 
 to the Opera at Naples, but it was ob- 
 served that she returned very early 
 irom thence. The person who waited 
 upon her on her return, was the maid- 
 servant, whose duty it was particular- 
 ly to attend to her bed-room. My 
 lords, she was struck with the manners 
 of the Princess, and with the agitation 
 which she manifested. She ha:>tened 
 to her apartment, and gave strict or- 
 ders that William Austin should not be 
 admitted to her room that evening. 
 She was then observed to go from her 
 own room towards that assigned to 
 ;^rgami. She very soon dismissed 
 fcer female attendant, telling her that 
 she had no further occasion for her 
 services. The female servant retired , 
 but not without those suspicions which 
 the circumstances I have mentioned 
 ^ere calculated to excite in the mind 
 of any individual. She knew at the 
 time, that Bergami was in his bed- 
 room, for this was the first night of 
 his having taken advantage of the ar- 
 rangement which had been previously 
 made. It was quite new on the part 
 of the Princess to dismiss her atten- 
 (iants so abruptly, but when her con- 
 duct and demeanour were considered, 
 suspicions art)se which it was impossi- 
 Tile to exclude. But if susfticion ex- 
 isted that evening:, how were they coh- 
 iirmed by observations made on the 
 following day— observations which, if 
 stated to a jury iii any common case, 
 iDust induce them to come to a concln- 
 «ion that an adulterous intercourse 
 had taken place that night between 
 this exalted perstm and this menial 
 servant : for upon the following morn- 
 ing it was discovered that her Ma- 
 jesty had not slept in her own room 
 "that night. Her bed remained almost 
 precisely in the same state as on the 
 preceding evening : and, my lords, the 
 i)ed of the other person on inspection 
 was decisively marked at if two per 
 sons had reposed in it. 1 stated to 
 your lordships, Uiat the apartments of 
 her then Royal Highness were distant 
 from those of her suite. On the morn- 
 ing following it was observed that her 
 'Royal Highness did not come from 
 her apartments at the usual hour. Her 
 Royal Highness's attendants never en- 
 tered her room witliout her express 
 permission. It was also observed that 
 Bergami also resided in his room later 
 than usual on that morning. Her 
 ;koy%l Highness's arrival in Naples b©^ 
 
 ing known, she was, of conrse, visited 
 by most of the rank and fashion of th« 
 town, but she was not visible nntil a 
 latf hour on that morning. I have al- 
 ready drawn your Lordships to the 
 observations which had been made by 
 the servants respecting the beds. I 
 say then, my lords, that if the case de- 
 pended on these facts alone, there is 
 not any man who can doubt of the 
 conclusion at which your lordships 
 must arrive. But, ray'lords, you will 
 perceive by what I have yet to detail, 
 that this scandalous, depraved, and 
 licentious intercourse was carried en 
 without interruption for a very great 
 length of time. The natural effect of 
 such an intercourse was to alter th© 
 comparative distance between thw 
 courier, this menial, and the royal 
 personage who descended from her 
 1 oval dignity so far. A freedom was 
 therefore a/5sumed by Bergami, m 
 which he could under no other cir- 
 cumstances presume to indulge. It 
 was also observed by the other ser- 
 vants that a considerable alteration, 
 took place in the demeanour of her 
 royal highness towards Bergami. — - • 
 An alteration which convinced those 
 who observed it, that an impro- 
 per intercourse existed between ihero. 
 A f'^w days after the period *o which 
 I have just alluded, her » oval highness 
 gave h(r last ball at ihe house of the 
 then king of Naples. Jt was a mask- 
 ed bail. Her Royal Highness's first 
 assumed character was a Neapolitan 
 peasant. In a short lime, however, 
 she returnt d to the house at which she 
 dressed, not o her residence. She 
 withdrew to a private room to change 
 her dress, and to the surprise of her 
 servants and the attendants belong- 
 ing to the house, her servant Bergami 
 was sent for, and retired into the room 
 with her. The character which it had 
 pleased her Royal Highness to assume 
 on that occasion was, the Genius of 
 History, and she was conducted by a 
 gentleman to the ball in that charac- 
 ter. I am instructed to state, that the 
 dress worn by her Royal Highness on 
 that occason \yas of a most indecent 
 and disgusting kind. Now, my lords, 
 it is most material to observe, that her 
 Majesty had taken oft her other dre.is 
 and put on this in the presence of her 
 courier Bergami — he alone being pre- 
 sent. Let me ask your Lordships what 
 motive could her Majesty have in pre- 
 ferring the services of this man U> tl^at 
 
THE ATTOnNEY-GENERALS SPEECH. 
 
 of hcT n&ual attendants on such an oc 
 oaitioa? Why sIkmiIcI sh« require the 
 assistance of a man, and that man one 
 of her menial servants, in her dressing 
 r«om? A man who waited behind her 
 chair at dinner, and who went before 
 lier as her courier, when she travelled 
 from place to place Wliat, I a*;k, 
 «)uld her reason be for selecting this 
 man on such an occasion, unless for the 
 purposes alleged in the preamble 
 of the bill? But more. Her Majesty 
 returned a third tim« from the bail. 
 8he thfn clrauged her dress to that of 
 a female Turkish peasant- antl who 
 ■was her companion on this occasion? 
 Her courier, her menial servant, Ber- 
 Itami; he accompanied her Majesty, 
 ^Iressed as a Turkish peasant, to a bail 
 jgiven to royalty, and to the first no- 
 bility of the country. It appears, how- 
 ever, that Bergami did not long re- 
 main at this l)at>. He returned home, 
 iapparently di-satislied with vS-omething 
 that had occrrred. — I know not what. 
 Her Majesty came home shortly after, 
 jand endeavoured to prevail on him to 
 go back to the ball; she pressed him 
 much, but he declined going. Her 
 Majesty then returned alone to the 
 Tjall, but she did not remain long. It 
 was observed by those servants whose 
 business it was to be more immediately 
 in attendance on her BJajesty, that at 
 whatever hour she rose in the morn- 
 ing, Bergami rose at the same pcnod ; 
 and also, that her Majesty was in the 
 babit of bre-ikfasting in her apart- 
 ments in company with him alone, — 
 lj<?r suite being in apartments at some 
 distance from iiers. Notwithstanding 
 this great f'auniiarity and preference, 
 the situation of Be.igumi remained the 
 same ; he still acted as her <'ourier, 
 her vakt-dc-chambre, and continued 
 to wait at table as .usual ; in short, he 
 appeared to ihc English ladies who 
 attended her Royal Highness just in 
 the same character as when he wqa 
 tirst hired. It was only in secret, or 
 at l^ast before her Alajesty's imme- 
 diate actendants that those familiari- 
 ties of which I speak were at all visi- 
 ble. Her Majesty was in the habit of 
 occasioually walking on a terrace, and 
 there she W/is seen at vai ioii? times, 
 leaning on Bcrgtiniis arm with tfie 
 greatest familiarity. It happened du- 
 ring her Majesty's residence at Na 
 Sles, that Bergaini had been injured 
 y a kick from a hoi-se. He avus for 
 »om« tWuc go ill as to be contrniU toliis 
 
 room, and your lordships mn^t per- 
 ceive hov/ great must have beesi the 
 ascendancy which this man acquired 
 over her Royal Highness, when I state 
 that she hired a servant introduced bj 
 him, as an attendant during his ill- 
 ness. This man slept in a room cIos« 
 to that occupied by Bergami, and had, 
 on thhree or four occasions, observed 
 her Majesty, after her houseliold had 
 retired to rest, go from her own room 
 with much caution, along the passage 
 to that of Bergami. On each o^xa^ioa 
 she remained in the room a con.-idpr- 
 able time. I am instructed to state, 
 and It will appear in evidence, that, 
 after her Majesty entered the room^ 
 this man could distinctly hear them 
 kissing. (Here a buz of surprise was 
 heard throughout the House.) i anv 
 aware my lords how these circumstan- 
 ces, disgusting as they aie, must ex- 
 cite feelinj^s of disgust in the mind* 
 of your lordships, and even feeiinga 
 of prejudice against him, v^ hose pain- 
 ful duty it IS to recite to rhem ; Ijui paia- 
 ful as it IS, it is still a duty which de- 
 volves upon irie by your lordhhip'n 
 order, and I feel myself bound so t» 
 state the fucts, that yonr lordship* 
 may fully nndurstand the nature of tiie 
 intercourse which took place between 
 her Majesty and this individual. I 
 feel assured that ill doing this, to tht 
 best of my ability, I shall not incur 
 your lordship's censure. Her Majesty 
 resided at Naples from November to 
 the March following, and, during the 
 whole of that period the intimaGjr 
 which I have described, coutinued 
 without interruption. I do not wish 
 to avail myself of any rumour that was 
 afloat at the time ; but I cannot help 
 remarking on the singularity of ihe 
 circumstance, that her Majesty on 
 quitting Naples lost the greu.er" part 
 of her English suite. I shall leave the 
 falct«, coupled with the other ciicuitt- 
 stances of the case, to speak foi them- 
 selves. So it was, however, on ho^r 
 I Majesty's leaving Naples, a great por- 
 tioii of her suite remained behind. I 
 should here observe, that IMi . St. Lc- 
 ger left her Majesty at Brunswick. 
 Of him therefore I do not uu^an to 
 speak on this occasion. But l>ady C. 
 Lindsay and Lady Elizabeth Eorbc* 
 remained at Naples on her M;<j» sty s 
 departure. I beg pardon. Lady Eli- 
 zabeth Forhei remained at Naples ; 
 Lady C. Lir|dtfay accompaiiud hev 
 Majest;^, bttl left her at Lcgiiurn, lit 
 
TIlfAL OP THE QUEEN. 
 
 1815. The persons left behind at Na- 
 pies, where L.ady C. Forbes, Sir Wil- 
 iiam Cell, the Honourable K. Ctaven, 
 and Captain Hesse. Ho tliat of seven 
 Kuglisli pcrnous who accompanied her 
 Majesij from i.nj^iiiiid, one remained 
 iit iSruuswiciv, nuii four at Naples. It 
 is prouable, that at anulher stage of 
 these ]>roceeilMn;s, proper reasons 
 will be ussigi.ed tor tue departure #»f 
 these pel sous. 1 cannot help obser- 
 \iug on the snigularity of their ali 
 liaving left her Majesty's Service 
 nearly at ti»e same period. I cannot 
 help imagining, and I am sure your 
 lordships vvnl itiink, that though these 
 persons were unacquainted with the 
 nature of the connexion existmg be- 
 tween htr Majesty and Bergami, yet 
 that some rumour must have reached 
 them of ihe visiuic tamiliarity that was 
 observed lo exist between ttiem. Be 
 the cause what it may, so it was that 
 those persons left her service. While 
 lifer Majesty resided at Naples, ano- 
 ther circumstance occurred between 
 her Majesty and Bergami, well wor- 
 lliy of your lordships' attention. There 
 was a Kind ot public masquerade held 
 at the 1 heat re St. Charles, in that 
 city. Her Majesty thought proper to 
 attend it, not liowever in the company 
 of Lady C. Lindsay, not in the com- 
 pany of Lady Elizabeth Forbes, not 
 attended by the gentlemen who were 
 her chamberlains at that peiiod: no, 
 her Majesty chose as her companion on 
 tiiat occasiou, her courier Bergami, 
 and a female skrvant, named Made- 
 jnoiselie Dumont. These two were 
 her Majesty's companions; and «iy 
 lord, the whole party wore dresses se- 
 lected by her Majesty. Tli€se dresses, 
 if I am rightly instructed, were of a 
 most gross and indecent description; 
 «o much so, that on entering the the- 
 atre they excited universal attention, 
 and were received with such marked 
 insult and disapprooation, that they 
 were obliged almost immediately to 
 retire. How do your lordships sup- 
 pose her Majesty went to the theatre ? 
 1 pu will, oi course imagine that she 
 ■went in her royal carriage, attended 
 by her suite, but no, a common tiacre 
 was hired, and in the dark of nii,ht her 
 Majesty and her party had to walk 
 across a garden, at the gate of which 
 the tiacre waned to receive them. 
 Her Majesty having gone as 1 de- 
 seribed, anu perceiving that she was 
 recognized by persdns in the theatre, 
 
 immediately withdrew. Some erifi- 
 cisms were made yesterday on the pre- 
 amble of the bill, and some observa- 
 tions as to wliat was, or what was not 
 to be considered indecency of conduct, 
 but I ask your lordslnps whether, if 
 wh?t 1 have now stated to you be 
 clearly proved in evidence, you will 
 not be decidedly of opinion that the 
 allegations in the pieamble. of the bill, 
 .iow under your lordships cansldera- 
 tion, will not be borne out by the facts 
 — whether these are not ottences of a 
 most gross and disgusting, nature. I 
 ask not whether such conduct is be- 
 fitting her Majesty, but whether it is 
 conduct that would be pursued by 
 any woman pretending to delicacy. 
 And, let it here be observed, as no 
 small aggravation to the charge, this 
 Bergami was, at the time of e^itering 
 her Majesty's service, a married mas. 
 I am aware at the same time, that it is 
 ditticult to aggravate the crime of adul- 
 tery . I now repeat what I tear 1 shall 
 have to repeat too i.ften, that these 
 acts of familiarity were continned 
 without interruption. They were 
 seen coming from their rooms in the 
 morning at the same time. They re- 
 tired at the same hour in the evening. 
 The servants who usually attended to 
 undress her Majesty, were dismissed 
 earlier than usual, and it was, above 
 all, observed, that Bergami was the 
 only one of her Maiesiy s servants, 
 who ventured to enter her Majesty j» 
 apartments without an express inti- 
 mation that their presence was re- 
 quited. He entered at ail times, and 
 vvitliout giving any notice, when none 
 of the others dart approach. In short, 
 he went on with tnis assumption of 
 freedom, until ut last he became the 
 lord and master of the establishment. 
 On quitting Naples her Majesty went 
 towards home, and on the way re- 
 mained three days at Civiia Vecch.ii. 
 Leaving Lady C. Lindsay ;u Leghorn, 
 her Majesty went to Genoa.— At this 
 period she had no English lady in her 
 suite. At Genoa she was joined by 
 Lady C. Campbell, who remained 
 with her until the May following, 
 when she left her at Milan.* Her Ma- 
 jesty embarked from Genoa on board 
 the Clorinde, and during the whole 
 of the time that she was on board Bei- 
 ganu waited upon her at table as 
 usual, but her servants observed the 
 same intimacy continue without alter- 
 ation, the freedoms in which Bergami 
 
THE ATTORNEY-GENEKAL S SPEECH. 
 
 indulged increased, and he froi^nently 
 wttlidrevr, in order to avoid the menial 
 sertices which he was nsnally called 
 upon to perform. While at Cejjoa he 
 attended her Majesty in all h.M rides 
 atul walks; an<J had a bed rooMi near 
 tiiat of her Majesty, as he had at Na- 
 ples. It was observed here idso, that 
 Ler Majesty'*! bed had scarcely ever 
 been occnpied at night, while that of 
 Berifami bore evident marks of havinj^ 
 been occnpied by two persons. 80 
 freqnently was this the case, that tiic 
 servant, whose dnty it was to make np 
 her Majesty's bed daily, had seldom 
 more to do than to sntouth down the 
 coverlid, which now and then ap- 
 peared to have been pressed down as 
 t») ^ive the appearance of having been 
 vlept in. In Bertrami's room, on the 
 contrary, every thinjf bore a different 
 appearanc«i. There the bed bore evi- 
 dent niarKs of having been slept in by 
 two persons. *(>n this part of theca^e 
 I will ask yonrlordsiiips what possible 
 feason Can be assigned for the conti- 
 nnal attendance of Bergami upon her 
 Majesty, particnlariy in her apart 
 nients? If it were necessary that a 
 male attendant should sleep near 
 fcer Majesty's apartments, had she 
 not the gentlemen of her suite ? — 
 Why was her menial servant, a man 
 who had been known to her only three 
 weeks, selected, nnte88 it was for the 
 pnrp.)se of this adulterous intercourse. 
 Had her Majesty not her own bed to 
 •leep in ? Why then wa» it left unoc- 
 • cupied? and whv did she, as it shall 
 Jhe proved to you, leave her own bed 
 llfloccupicd, and sleep in his.' I have 
 stated to your lordships, that her Ma- 
 ksty has been seen to visitthis man in 
 Wis bed-room, he being in bed. What, 
 ray lords, a lady of her exalted rank 
 \i«tt a person in his situation in his 
 bed-room ! Can it be doubted that her 
 ouly object in going so was adulterous 
 intercourse ? I know that it is incum 
 Went on your lordships to satisfy your- 
 selves by the most indisputable testi- 
 mony that the facts which I have stat 
 «d shall be fully borne out before you 
 decide against her Majesty. But if 
 what I have already stated be not suf- 
 ficient to satisfy your lordships, you 
 will be convinced beyond a doubt by 
 >vhatis yet to come, of the, truth of the 
 charges cootained in the bill. Your 
 lordships have already seen that at 
 Wa4>les as well as at Genoa, the fami- 
 liarity Gontiuued. Her Majesty and 
 
 Bergarai breakfasted in the same 
 apartment. I now come to another 
 circumstance which marks the power 
 this man obtained over h<?r Majesty. 
 Bergami as I stated, was a married 
 man. He had a daugiiter named V^ic- 
 toiia. This child her Majesty took 
 into her household. His sister, his 
 brother, and his mother were also 
 taken into hir Majesty's service. I 
 ask your lordships' whether it is possi- 
 ble that any ordinary servant could 
 have such power over her Majesty as 
 to induce her tlins to burthen hersell' 
 with his whole family. A servant, to«, 
 who had, at that period, only been in 
 her service from August to the follow- 
 ing April. The ciiild was at this pe- 
 riod about three years of age. Who 
 do yourloi dships suppose was brought 
 in to take car<* of this child ! Its ten- 
 der age would require the fostering^ 
 euro of its mother^ The mother, how- 
 ever, was not taken in to attend 
 it. The child was withdrawn from 
 the fostering care of the pareirt, 
 who must be supposed the pei*son best 
 calculated, both from nature and incli- 
 nation to attend to its wants. Her 
 Majesty, though she knew that Ber- 
 gami was married, gave out that he 
 was not. She said the child viras one 
 that he had had by some female, and 
 that she was anxious to take it wnde-r 
 her royal protection. The circum- 
 stance of Bergami's being an unmar- 
 ried man, and having had a child, 
 should not have increased the re2:ard 
 of a mistress for her servant. But so 
 it was, that her Majesty riceived the 
 child into her house. Her Majesty 
 after having remained at Genoa until 
 May 13th, returned to Milan leaving 
 Lady C. Campbell behind. She was 
 afterwardsjoined at Milan by that lady 
 who remained with her for a short 
 time, but quitted her before the en'l 
 of the same month. On her Majesty's 
 journey from Genoa to Milan, Ber- 
 £;ami,who attended her as her courier, 
 was observed frequently to go up to 
 the carriage and converse with her. 
 I must here keep in your lordships re- 
 collection, that Lady C. Campbell did 
 not no this journey witli her Majesty, 
 In the course of the journey her Mar 
 jesty not only frequently conversed 
 with Bergami, but repeatedly pressed 
 him to take refreshments, and demos- 
 strated every mark of friendship and 
 attention towards him. Bergami was,. 
 during this time, habited in his dresi ©f ^ 
 
TRIAL OF TJIE QUEEX, 
 
 courier, and poifornnnc; every scr- 
 ▼ice bclous'i'g to lliat situation. Whm 
 Lady Cliarlottt Campbell left her Ma- 
 jesty, she remaiiH d without any lady 
 of rank as ht^r attendant One would 
 have Ihonght. considerino; the high 
 station of in.'r Majesty, considering the 
 situ 'tion which she expectpcd to occupy 
 as queen consort in this country, she 
 would have been anxious to have con- 
 tiflually abont her person, some Enisj- 
 lish ladies of hiajh r.mk ; or at least if 
 she did not chase these, that she vFould 
 have sonifht some of similar rank in her 
 Dative country Brunswick, or sonie- 
 wlsere ^Ise on the continent. Butwill 
 it be believed that she received into 
 her house a person totally unknown to 
 her, a woman of vulvar manners, to- 
 tally uneducated ; and this woman was 
 no other than the second sister of 
 this Rergami, of whom I have already 
 saiil So much. Sncli was the influence 
 of this man over her Majesty, that she 
 received this sister under the title of 
 the Countess of Oldi. Thus she had 
 the two sisters, the mother, thebrolher 
 and the cluld of this man in herestabr 
 lislimeut at the f^anic period: but 
 while one sister sat at her table as a 
 lady of honour, the otiier lived with 
 the seivants. The brother who 
 was also, 1 believe, a courier — the 
 inotiier and Berjjami lived with the 
 servants also. In May, 1815, this 
 sister, who was received as her Ma- 
 jesty's companion, filled the same situ- 
 ation which was formerly held by the 
 Ladies Forbes, I>indsay, and Camp- 
 bell. I a»k your lordships what infe- 
 rence is to be drawn frwm the whole 
 of this.? Will your lordships doubt 
 for a moment, when you hear these 
 coupled with the other facts which I 
 have detailed to you, that the allega- 
 tions in the preamble are fully borne 
 out by the facts ? Her Majesty did 
 not reside lonji at Milan, ^he set out 
 for Venice, Up to this period I have 
 shewn your lordships the continued 
 familiarity which existed between her 
 Majesty and Bcrgami. I now come to 
 a circumstajjce which will more fully 
 f-stabli^h that fact. I have already 
 slated the periods at which her Ma- 
 jesty WHS quitted by both her male 
 and female Eni;[lish attendants. On 
 her journey to Venice sho was accom. 
 panicd bytlie Hon. D.Burrell. [Here 
 there was un exclamation fiom some 
 noWe Lord, VNhose name wc couid not 
 ca'iCli.J 
 
 I beg pardon of the nohlc lord an<l 
 the house. I have uniuteDtionally mid- 
 taken the name of the ^'entlcman; he 
 to whom I allude Is Mr. William Bar- 
 ren, not Mr. Drummond Burrell. — 
 fa^ain there was an observation, but 
 from what partof the liouse wt'did not 
 hear.) — I have to apologize to your 
 lord-hips for the mistake into which 
 I have fallen. The noble lord must 
 perceive that I njeant nothing offen- 
 sive in mentioning the name of Mr. 
 Drummond Burrell. Neither do I 
 mean any thinsr offensive in mention- 
 ing the name of Mr. W. Burrell. I am 
 only stating the fact. I mention this 
 ••entleman in order to shew that he 
 was the only English attendant who 
 accompanied her Majesty to Venice. 
 I have not the slighest dorfbt that at 
 that period Mr. VV. Burrell was totally 
 ignorant 'of her Majesty's connection 
 with Bergami. I never meant an iii- 
 siuuation against his character.— 
 (Cries of " £0 on.") Your lordships I 
 am sure, will excuse me, and will be- 
 lieve that 1 could have no intention of 
 injuring the character of either gentle- 
 men whose names I have mentioned, 
 (cries of " go on, go on," in a more 
 peremptory tone). I was about to 
 state to your lordships a fact which 
 occurred at Venice. On one occasion 
 her Majesty, who resided in a hotel in 
 that city, was left after dinner alone 
 with Bergami, who had stood behind 
 her chair as usual. She was observed 
 by a servant of the hotel to take a gold 
 chain and place it round Bergamis 
 neck. Much familiarity then took 
 place. He took the chain from hw 
 neck, and placed it round the neck of 
 her Majesty, and she in return again 
 put it on his. This toying was conti* 
 lined for some time. Why, my lords, 
 do I mention this fact? I mention it 
 in order to shew the increasing fami- 
 liarity and growing influence which 
 this man was daily acquiring over her 
 Majesty's mind. 
 
 After her Majesty's return to Milan, 
 Mr. Bui rcll quitted her Majesty's ser- 
 vice at the Villa Vellani. As the 
 English quitted her service there ap- 
 peared less, reserve in her attention to 
 Bergami. There she gave him a blue 
 silk gown, which he afterward** wore 
 in the mornings, and his rooo* was as 
 usual near her Majesty's. But though 
 httr Majesty had so far demeaned 
 heWelf I do not impute it to her 
 as 4 €rime. She played at games 
 
TNS ATTORNEY-GENERAL*s SPEECH. 
 
 Vtth serrants, \»hich of itself mJ£clit| 
 Hot be of much consequence; but 
 under all the circumstances of the case 
 must prove the fall of her character, 
 rfesuliiug (trom her infatuated attach- 
 ment to Ber£;:ami. In Augusit, 1<415, 
 she visited Mount St.Gi)thard,Bergami 
 slill in her service: thence she pro- 
 cfeeded to Vannes, where she retired 
 to a bed-room with him, and remained 
 shut up for a Considerable length of 
 time. Alter dinner tUey went to Ma- 
 doua il Monte, where they slept, and 
 next day they journeyed to the Bjrio- 
 tiieo Islands. Her maje=iiy had the 
 best aj)artments assigned for her use, 
 but on this occasion she did not accept 
 il, not atfording her an opj)ortunity of 
 having her paramour as near her as 
 usual. She took meaner apartments 
 for the purpose of atfording him an op- 
 j^ortuuity of being nearer to her. This 
 Conduct is n(»t a little singular ; what 
 reason is there that Bergami should 
 always sleep in the room near her ma- 
 jesty's. Such, however, was the fact, 
 And I merely mention it to show his 
 infiuet)ce upon her. Her mojesty 
 next stwpped at Balanzoni, wliere 
 Bergami's conduct showed his in 
 fiuence — he having| here, for the first 
 time had a seat at her majesty's table, 
 where he has uniformly since conti- 
 nued to be placed. What were his 
 merits to entitle him to tliis honour I 
 knovr not, and if I am told they were 
 Such as to produce his extraordinary 
 rise, all that I can say is, it would have 
 boen njuch more creditable at once to 
 elevate him to some dignity; but such 
 wa* not the conduct of Ijer majesty, 
 and in the dress of a menial she pub- 
 licly admits him to her table. It may 
 be said these are foreign manners, but 
 • 1 Cannot help thinking they are such 
 manners as should never hare been 
 practised between so illustrious a per- 
 lonage as the Pi incess of Wales and 
 one of her menial servants. In the 
 ftiiddle ranks of society no one ever 
 heard of a servant who w.iited having 
 afterwards a chair at his raaster^s 
 table ; and if indecorous amongst pri- 
 vate individuals to dd so, what must 
 lie thought of it in the Princess of 
 Wales's establishment ? How to ac- 
 count for it 1 know not, except in that 
 criminal atiacUment which her ma- 
 jesty had uniformly shewn Bergami : 
 On that occasion they also visited Lu- 
 gano, where you will find decisive evi- 
 dence of au adulieryu* intcrwurse as 
 
 well as in other places. On her return 
 from this tour she established herself 
 at d'Este near Como. Here their 
 rooms were only divided by a small 
 cabinet, their apartments, however, 
 cut off fiom all communication with 
 those of all the other servants in the 
 house. Bergami and the princess 
 usually retired at night and rose at 
 the same hour in the morning. And 
 here he was advanced to the dignity of 
 her majesty's chamberlain, when he 
 always dined at her majesty's table, 
 together with his sister, the daroe 
 d'honueur. She remained at d'Este till 
 November, 1815, and then embarked 
 on board tlie Leviathan on the 15th of 
 that montii. The best apartments 
 were allotted to her majesty. The 
 cabins contiguous to each other were 
 prepared (or her majesty and her fe- 
 male attendants. The best arrange- 
 ments were made for her accommoda- 
 tion that suggested themselves at the 
 time ; hut immediately on her ma- 
 jesty ccming on board, all that had 
 beeu done was to be undone : the ar- 
 rangement was altered, and the room 
 next to her majesty's was appropriated 
 to Bergami. Her majesty remained 
 on board till 26"ih November, having 
 visited Elba in her lour, and she ar- 
 rived at Palermo on that day. She 
 walked arm in arm on the deck with 
 Bergami and made »hose alterations in 
 the cabins which 1 have already stated. 
 At Palermo her majesty went to 
 court accompanied by Bergami, in u 
 magnificent hussar dress. From thenc» 
 she went to Messina, where she re- 
 mained till the 6th January, 1816. On 
 her arrival there, the bed-rooms were 
 arranged as in the other places 1 have 
 mentioned 5 on this occasion, however, 
 their rooms being separated by that 
 in which the countess of Oldi, his sis- 
 ter slept. It was here observed that 
 her majesty and Bergami retired ear- 
 lier than the others to rest, and that she 
 seldom required that female assistance 
 which ladies of her rank usually de- 
 manded on SMch occasioits. She called 
 Bergami, ** her dear," *' her love," 
 played with him familiarly, so that, in 
 fact, no doubt remains, or could re- 
 main on your lordships' minds, but 
 that an adulterous intercourse alone 
 could justify the attentions, or account 
 for the familiarities of her majesty. 
 
 On the 6ih January, her majesty left 
 Messina, and embarked in the frigate 
 Cloriudffj the veisel which had pre- 
 
10 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 viously carried licr majesly from Civita 
 Vecchia to Genoa. At iliat time Ber- 
 l^ami was her menial, but he was now 
 her chamberlain. The honourable 
 officer who comn)andecl the ship felt it 
 would be dt'i^rading him if he sat at 
 the same table with one who had for- 
 merly served him, and he remonstrated 
 ou the subject with her majesty, whose 
 conduct showed how deeply she felt 
 the force of his objection. Had he 
 obtained the dignity he then held by 
 worthy means, would not the princess 
 have answered this remonstrance by 
 saying, he bad associated with her 
 majesty, and conld not therefore dis- 
 grace captain Pechell by sitting at the 
 same table. If this failed, would not 
 her majesty have said, **You are of- 
 fending me and t}ie country that em- 
 ploys you ; I shall make the proper 
 report of your conduct, and not s;o on 
 board your vessel." But was this the 
 conduct of her majesty? If his ad- 
 vancement were a proof of his merits, 
 and his merits alone, would not this, 
 or something like it, have been the 
 conduct of her majesty .'' No such 
 thing, however, took {)jace — she took 
 a day or two to consider what she 
 should do, and ultimately declined the 
 table and socieiy of captain Pechell 
 for that of her paramoui-. She^ indeed, 
 observed that captain Briggs made no 
 objection to Bergami ; but there was 
 . this difle ence in the two cases, that 
 the latter was totally unacquainted 
 with the previous menial condition of 
 ' Bergami., Her majesty, it would thus 
 appear, consented to be insuhed by an 
 English captain, who^, liMwever, had 
 done no more tljau what he conceived 
 to be his duty. 
 
 From Messina her raajesty went to 
 Syraoivse, where she remained till the 
 30th o-f that month, and then proceed- 
 ed to Catania. At (irst Bergami'^s bed- 
 room was at a distance frouf lid's — 
 but the same change here 4ook place 
 as on every other occasion where any 
 interruption could take place in their 
 secret communication*:. There the 
 filles-de-chambres, sitting up one night 
 later than usual at tl>eir revels, saw 
 Bergami's door open, and the piiuce>s 
 coming out in such a condition as cuuld 
 leave no doubt of her having passed 
 the night in his room. She was un- 
 dressed and had a pillow under her 
 arm, ou which hhe always slept. In 
 common cases of divorce, such a fact, 
 my lords, would be proof enough, but 
 
 when yoii conple with it her being nn- 
 dres^ed, I ask what must be the con- 
 clusiou in your lordships* minds ? 
 That fact alone, if we can prove it, 
 fully justifies the preamble of the bill. 
 Another circumstance occurred at Ca- 
 tania, which will serve to confirm the 
 charge of a previous adulterous inter- 
 course. Her majesly bad shown au 
 extraordinary attachment to the infant 
 child of Bergami, who slept in her 
 room, and often in her bed, and was 
 subsecpieutly, I believe, dignified with 
 the title of a princess. The clnld 
 showed symptoms of gratitu<le for her 
 lnajesty^s att«intions,and also exhibited 
 her concern by crying \\hen she 
 missed thd hand that fondled and 
 protected her. The child was affec- 
 tionate, and if her majesty were wirti- 
 drawu it usually cried. The couuiesa 
 of Oldi in vain attempted to pacify her.. 
 These circumstances coupled with 
 others, must satisfy your lorddiips 
 atid all reasonable minds that an adul- 
 terous intercourse subsisted between 
 her majesty and Bergami vkhile they 
 continued at Catania. 
 
 Having advanced Bergami to so 
 many honours, and now j)roctired him 
 a knighthood of Malta ; he «as desig- 
 isa ed his excellency, and afieruards 
 she always addressed him as chevalier. 
 What rea%on, my lords, can be assigned 
 for all this? What but her guilty at- 
 tachment, or the exjiectatiau of grati- 
 fication from a degrading intercour.-.e ? 
 While at Catania, she at first enjoyed 
 the society of the first persons there v 
 but after a short residence she became 
 regardless of all other society thau 
 that of her paramour. She was rarely 
 seen with the nobility ;. she became re- 
 gardless of her person,, and from Ca- 
 tania- she pr<jceeded to a place called* 
 Augusta, in that neijihb(mrhood. 
 
 Anjourned at 4 o'clock. 
 
 MONDAY, August 21. 
 The Attorney-General said, lie had 
 now to resume the statement of facts 
 at the part which he left uiF on Satur- 
 day. It would be in the recollection 
 i of "their lordships that in that state- 
 ment he had left her majesty at Cata- 
 nia, ill the island of Sicily. He, how- 
 evii*, begged leave, before he proceeded 
 with the narrative, to supply aa omis- 
 sion which he made on Saturday. Ou 
 that day he had slated thalDr. Holland- 
 was in the stiile of her majesty, but h» 
 had not mentioned at what time that 
 
TIIF, ATTOHMEY-GKNEnALS, SPEIiCH. 
 
 11 
 
 Ij^ehllcman left her service. He now 
 t4i«)ii£;lit it necessary to apprise their 
 Jordsljips, le-t they should suppose 
 that Dr. Holland had continued uiih 
 lier majesiy up lo the last date of which 
 he had spoken, tiiat that ic<^"il€tnan left 
 her at Venice, in the tour which her 
 piajesiy made to that city in the month 
 of April or May, 1815. She had pre- 
 viously taken ituo hfr service a Mr. 
 Howuam and a Mr. Flynn, ollicers of 
 %he navy. He would now proceed 
 with his statement in the order he had 
 hitherto followed. He had, as already 
 Biated, left her majesty at Catania ; 
 from thence she went to Auj^usta, also 
 in Sicily. This journey she made in ^ 
 the month of March, I8I6". He had 
 already informed iheir lordships, that 
 ^iurin^ the residence of the queen in 
 Catania, she procured for Bericami the 
 title of aknii^htof iMalta. Upon her 
 arrival at Augusta, she obtained for 
 him a new dij^uity — the title of Baron 
 de la Franctiio. He was not aware 
 what circumstances could entitle him 
 to such an honour, or that any thin^ 
 could have induced her majesty to 
 procure this dig-nity for him, except 
 jihe influence which he had obtained 
 over her, in consequence of the fa- 
 piiliarity and licentious infercourse 
 »vluch he had shown to have subsisted 
 between them. He had now to stale 
 another fact, which would prove the 
 power Ber^ami had obtained over his 
 inistress — a power which, as he always 
 said, was to be accounted for by not 
 only the existence of a licentious fa- 
 fniriariiy,bnt an adulterous intercourse 
 heiween then). Either at Anj^usta or 
 Catania she sat for her picture, or for 
 several pictures. In one instance she 
 sat in the character of a Maj^daleu, in 
 a dress in which her person was very 
 much exposed. In another picture 
 «he was painted in the dress of a 
 Turkish lady, and along with her was 
 the child Victo'iue in a similar dress, 
 lierjrami was also j)ain(ed in a Turkish 
 dress. One, if not two, of these pic- 
 tures was presented to Berg;ami. Now 
 he must here a^fiiu observe to their 
 lordshipsjthattohim it was impossihle i 
 to account for such nmrks of f.-ivonr^ ! 
 upon any other ground than that of in- 
 fluence obtained by the aduller(»us in- 
 tercourse which, upon the facts he had 
 described, he attributed to the parties. 
 Her majeaji having; resolved to leave 
 Au{^usia, set out on a voyage to Tunis, 
 #ud afterwards visited Greece, for 
 
 this voyage she hired a vessel of that 
 kind called a polacca ; and here he had 
 again to slate, that arrangements were 
 made on board this vessel, similar to 
 iho e their lordships would recollect 
 he had already described on other oc- 
 casions, for having the sleeping apajt- 
 meuts of Bergami and the queen near 
 each other, and for ohtaining facility 
 of Communication. Her majesty's 
 cal/m, as well as that of the countess 
 of Oldi, communicated with the dining 
 cabin, and on the other side were some 
 apartments for the other female at- 
 tendants. There were two doors lead- 
 ing into the cainn, one for the queea 
 and the other iov her female servants. 
 For a few days. Bergami slept at some 
 dinauce (rom the queen's apartment. 
 But very soon one of the doors, that 
 which served for a communicaiiou to 
 the servants into the eating room, was 
 ordered to be cU)«ed up, leaving only 
 one entrance to ilie dining room and 
 the queen's bed room. A bed was 
 ordered to be brought for Bergami's 
 accommodation into the dining cabin, 
 and this bed was so placed, that wheu 
 the door of the queen's sleeping-room 
 was open, she and Bergami could see 
 each other while in bed> and hold con- 
 versation together. The only access 
 to her maje5i}'s bed-ro(;m was through 
 tlieeating-roumin which Bergamislept, 
 and when the door ot this room was 
 sliut, there was no raeaos of access to 
 ike queen's. The door of tlse eating- 
 cabin was constautiv shut afrer they 
 iSjtired to rest, and through it, as he 
 had Slated, was the only comtnunica- 
 tion to the queen's slee|>ing apartment. 
 Now he would ask their Iwrdships what 
 conclusion could be "Brawn f-om this 
 arrangement but that which the others 
 he had stated, had suggested ? What 
 other reason except that of facilitating 
 an adulterous intercourse could be 
 assigniui for her majesty having, either 
 by land or sea, access to her sleeping- 
 apartment open only to Bergami, and 
 closexl to all the rest of Uer suite ? Her 
 majesty proceeded, as he had stated, 
 to Tunis and from thence to Utica. 
 In the house in wihch she slept there 
 were only two bed-rooms ; one was al- 
 lotted to her majesty aud Victorine, 
 and another to the countess of Oldi 
 and the other female attendants. The 
 rest of the suite were accommodated 
 at the houses of different consuls in the 
 town. It would appear in evidence, 
 that wheu her majesty slopped at this 
 
12 
 
 TRIAL OF THB QUEKl. 
 
 place, Berram'i came in the morning 
 at a very early hour before her ma- 
 jesty was up, and entered her apart- 
 inent. Without asking leave or S'^ing 
 the slightest notice, he passed into her 
 bed-room, and there remained alone 
 ii»ith her for a considerable time. Here 
 he might be permitted to ask, \vhy 
 Bergamj took this liberty? why he 
 went to her majesty's apartment with- 
 out being desired? Their lordships 
 would say whether it was to be sup- 
 posed she would thus admit him to her 
 bed-room, if gross familiarity and licen- 
 tious intercourse had not previously 
 taken place. It was true, she had by 
 this time procured for Bergami titles 
 and dignities, but her having raised 
 him froni obscurity to- distinction did 
 not furnish any ground for thus ad- 
 mitting him to her bed-room. Their 
 lordships might, perhaps, consider the 
 details he had to state as fatiguing, 
 froni their sameness. But though 
 many of the facts he had stated, and 
 had still to relate^ were unimportant in 
 themselves, they were material as lead- 
 ing to the conclusion he had endea- 
 voured to press on their lordship-,' 
 minds — that the chain of circumstances 
 could only be accounted for on the ex- 
 istence of an adulterous intercourse 
 between Bergami and her majesty. 
 He had now t<> call their lordships' at- 
 tention to a fact which was calculated 
 to remove every doubt from their 
 minds, if any yet remained. Her ma- 
 jesty visited Savona. The house in 
 which she slept there had only two 
 rooms, and the outer room, which was 
 assigned to Bergami, had no bed. 
 
 Here the Lord Chancellor asked at 
 what date this took place. 
 
 The A tornev-General : They were 
 at Savona en the 12ih of April; they 
 had been at Uiica on the 8th. 
 
 A noble lord asked where Savona 
 was situated. 
 
 The Attorney-General : The place 
 was in Africa, near Tunis. It was 
 called eiiher Savona or Saveuha. He 
 had it Savona. As he had staled, ai 
 this place, the outside-room, assigned 
 to Bergami, had no bed ; the inner 
 room, which was occupied by her ma- 
 jesty, had one, and a very large one. 
 There was no access to the Vied in the 
 inner-room except through Bergami's. 
 It would be proved in evidence, that 
 in the mornuig, after her majesty had 
 .slept here, her bed had the appearance 
 ^f having been $lept iu by two persons. 
 
 Their lordships would recollect that ha 
 had stated that there was only une pasr 
 sage to her majesty's bed-room ; that 
 that passage led from Bergami's room, 
 and that in his room there was no bed. 
 In any ordinary case this would be 
 sufficient proof to a jury that the crime 
 of adultery had been commiited that 
 night ; becau.se, when their lordshipv 
 found that there were no means of acr 
 cess to the queen's bed-room but 
 through Bergami's apartment, and that 
 her majesty's bed bore in the morning 
 the marks of two persons having lain ia 
 it, they could come to no other conclii> 
 siou but the natural one — that they had 
 committed adultery. When, too, they 
 found circumstances of this kind oc- 
 curring night after night, from time to 
 titne, and in different places, there wat 
 no one could doubt that the evidence 
 bore out the charge of a continued 
 course of adultery. From the coast of 
 Africa her majesty sailed to Athens, 
 and touched at Malta in her way. They 
 arrived at Aihens on the 22nd of April» 
 1816, and afterwards visited theGreek 
 islands, and stopped some time aiMe.. 
 lito. Excursions were also made to 
 Troy and Ephesus. He would state a 
 fact which occurred at Athens, uhich 
 would show how little of the respect 
 due to her high rank was paid by Ber- 
 gami to the princess. At Athens, the 
 captain of an English ship which 
 touched there landed, and called on 
 her royal highness. He was intro- 
 duced to her royal highness sitting in 
 an alcove iu a garden, in which wera 
 also the countess of Oldi and Ber- 
 gami ; the latter seated, and wearing 
 a foraging cap. Her royal highness 
 rose with the politene§^ Vi-hich distin- 
 guished all persons of high rank, to re- 
 ceive the officer, and desired him to hm 
 seated. Bergami continued seated ; 
 and, after a short lime, left the place 
 without making the least obeisance, or 
 paying those marks of respect which 
 the officers of a court were always ex- 
 pected to pay : he Teft the room as if 
 he were a person of equal rank to her 
 royal higbne5<;. Why did he mention 
 this fact ? Because it showed thai the 
 familiarity which had taken place be- 
 tween them had' })eeti carried to such 
 an extent that he considered his royal 
 rai=;tress lo be reduced to a level with 
 himself. This fact was nothing of it- 
 self, but it was one which, taken in 
 connection wiihotheis, was very in»r 
 porta j»t, aud WQi>Id hayc weight wJll| 
 
THE ATTORNKT-GBNEUALS SPEECH. 
 
 13 
 
 »|nrj. It plainly showed the assump- 
 tion of autli(>rity by Ber^ami, and liow 
 completely he thought himself relieved 
 from the iieces.'>ity of paying any mark 
 of re>pect to her majesty. From 
 Athens her royal highness proceeded 
 by the way of Constantinople to Ephe 
 »us. Here another circumstance of a 
 very remarkable nature occurred 
 her majesty directed a bed to be 
 placed under a vestibule, which fronted 
 3 church shaded by trees. Dinner was 
 piepared,but Ihe weather was hot, and 
 her majesty had retired to the vestibule 
 to repose herself. Bergami was seen 
 coming from this vestibule in disha- 
 hille, when no other person was sup- 
 posed to be there but her majesty 
 Dinner was afterwards ordered to be 
 eerved in the vestibule for her majesty 
 and Bergami, She sat on the small 
 bed and he beside her. None of the 
 attt-ndants were admitted < to the vesti- 
 bule, and she and Bergami remained 
 alone together for a considerable time. 
 Now, if her "royal highness required 
 any attendance within this vestibule, 
 why were not the females of her suite 
 employed for that purpose ? Why 
 was Bergami and Bergami alone, ad- 
 mitted lo her bedroom ? Soon after, 
 her majesty proceeded to Aun, a place 
 in Syria, where again Bergami was 
 treated with the same extraordinary 
 familiarity. A tent was erected for 
 her royal highness, and a bed fitted 
 lip for her within it. While' she was 
 ill bed in this tent, Bergami was seen 
 sitting in his shirt sleeves, and almost 
 undressed, op the side of the bed. 
 From this tent he was aftcrw^ard? seen 
 coming in a state of undress. Now if 
 her majesty required any attendance 
 in this tent, why had she not called 
 upon the cou:itess Oldi, or some other 
 female of her suite ? How did it hap- 
 pen that Bergami should be the person 
 required to attend her while she was 
 in bed, and that he should wait upon 
 Jier dressed in the unbecoming manner 
 which had been described? This was 
 icerlainly a circiimstancc of strong sus- 
 picion. But it perhaps might be said, 
 that it reqiiired something more to 
 prove adultery. He must observe, 
 however, that he believed that in any 
 ofdinary ca-^e this would be enough to 
 prove the commission of th^t crime be- 
 fore any court. But their lordships 
 would besides recollect, that, strong as 
 it was, this was not an isolated fact. 
 1^ wiis one of a series of the lApie lort^ 
 
 and he might rentnre to assert that 
 such familiarity could not be supposed 
 to exist between such persons without 
 a guilty iuierfourse. No woman would 
 allow such a liberty to be takeu with 
 her, uuless by a man to whom she had 
 granted the last favour. This might 
 be said not only in the case of a priu^ 
 cess and a man who had been her 
 courier, but iu the case of any man and 
 woman of respectability iu any ranlc 
 of life. From Aun her majesty pro- 
 ceeded to Jerusalem. Here, not sa- 
 tisfied with the dignities she had al<» 
 ready procured for her favourite — nor 
 even wjih having made him her chamr* 
 berlain, and procured for him the order 
 of Malta And the title of Baron della 
 Francia — she obtained for him the or». 
 der of St. Sepulchre. Still, not content 
 uith this, she instituted an yrder of her 
 own, which vvas called *' the order of 
 St. Caroline," After conferring this 
 order ««n several of her domestics, she 
 made Bergami the Grand Master, (a 
 laugh in the house,) Thi^ might excite 
 a smile among their lordships; but it 
 was a circumstance whicii marked very 
 strongly the state of her majesty's 
 mind. Why did she single out this 
 man to ba Grand Master of the order 
 she had created ? It was impossible 
 not to conclude that ibis distinctioa 
 proceeded from that attachment which 
 she had so strongly manifested to him, 
 uhich had led to an adulterous inter* 
 course that gave him a powerful in- 
 fluence ov^r her. Why else should she 
 have made a Grand Master of this 
 man, formerly a courier — now a baroo. 
 There was no way of accounting for 
 this but by referring it to that degrad- 
 ing and humiliating passion on the part 
 of her majesty, the calamitous effects 
 of which he had already described. It 
 was that passion which had made Ber- 
 gami Knight of Malta, Knight of St. 
 Sepulchre^ Grand Master of the Order 
 «)f St. Caroline, and the baron della 
 Francia. He had, however, now a fact 
 to state, which, if any doubt still re- 
 mained with their lordships, would 
 completely banish it. He therefore 
 requested their lordship's particular 
 attention to the statement he was about 
 to make. Her majesty embarked at 
 Jaffa, for Jialy, on board a polaccn; 
 finding it inconvenient toi remain in 
 the cabin during the night, shediiecie.I 
 a teni to be erected on the deck of liie 
 vessel, in order to sleep in it. In tiii$ 
 teut a sufa or bed was placed for her 
 
14 
 
 TRI \L OF THK QUKICPf, 
 
 majesty, and also a sofa for Bergami. 
 This preparation was made for their 
 sleeping utuier the same roof. and witli- 
 ©ut any partition or div-ision between 
 them. In this way they eonlinned to 
 sleep every nii^ht withoni intermission, 
 Mntil their arrival in Italy, In the day- 
 time the eanvas of the tent was drawn 
 wp faadmit the air; but at night, when 
 Ihey retiri'd into the tent, it was let 
 <lown, go as to exclude the observa- 
 tion of the crew and her majesty's 
 suite. This not only took place night 
 after night, but frequently in the 
 conr?eor the day. After dinner her 
 majesty and this man retired into tiie 
 tent, and then the canvas was letdown, 
 rs before described, to exclude obser- 
 vatioD^ This familiarity continued 
 during the voyage from Jafla to Italy, 
 ■where they arrived in the month of 
 September, and landed at Terracina. 
 What lie had stated he considered not 
 merely presumptive, but positive evi- 
 denec^ Was it ever before heard of, 
 that a lady of rank maintained this fa- 
 Riiliarity with her chamberlain? Their 
 lordships would see that this inter- 
 course had been maintained for a very 
 considerable time, and it was evident 
 that it cculd be carried on for no other 
 purpose than that of committing adul- 
 tery. When tlieir lordships were, in 
 addition to all he had stated, told that 
 «he had often been seen during the 
 day sitting on Hergami's knee, and 
 (Embracing him ; after this nobody could 
 doubt for what purpose the tent was 
 fitted up on the deck. At this time 
 her majesty seemed to cast oflT all the 
 restraints of female delicacy. It would 
 be proved that at one period during 
 the voyage she had a bath prepared 
 for ber on board the vessel, and into 
 this bath she went, no person being 
 present, or in attendance on her, ex- 
 cept Bcrgami. After that fact conld 
 any man have a doubt on his miiid of 
 the criminal nature of the iutercostrse 
 existing between them ? though it 
 might be supposed that there might be 
 so much virtue inlixed in the mind of 
 an individual, that two persons of dif- 
 ferent sexes could sleep in the same 
 apartment without .any criminality 
 having occurred ; yet, !^eeing that such 
 a series of consl.ant familiarity and un- 
 becoming intimacy had been indulged 
 in with this man before, what but the 
 absolute banishment, the total oblivion, 
 «f all remains of virtue and modesty, 
 fttuld have ^>rev?^iled on a woman to 
 
 admit a man and a servant at tuch % 
 moment? From this facf every man 
 mu^t be sali^fied that the last intimacy 
 ujust have taken place ben^eeu two 
 persons of difrVrent >exe> before any 
 feo»ale woiild allow a man tw attend <)i> 
 her in such a siiuaiion. Nothing bu^ 
 the existence of the adulterous inter- 
 course to which he had alhuled could 
 account for such a circumstance. Oil 
 board of this ve-sel, on the 24th (»f 
 August, which was Sr. Bartbolomew»i 
 day, great festivities took place. Their 
 lordships were aware that Bergami's 
 name was Bartolomo. At this enter- 
 tainment the healih of her majesty and 
 the health of Bergami, the courier, 
 were drank together ou that occasion* 
 What inference was tJ) be drawn {ram 
 this circumstance .> None, but thaC 
 t\\i^se favors, distinctions, and honours 
 were conferred upon the domestic Berr 
 gami, in consequence of a criminal, li- 
 ceuiiou<;, and disgusting, intercoursje. 
 While he was on this fact he should 
 beg to state a circumstance omitted iu 
 the former parlof his statement, which 
 was that the same transaction had ocr 
 curred, the same festivities had been 
 indulged in, ou the same day, the pre- 
 ceding year, iu the villa d'Este. There 
 also a grand festival was held in ho- 
 nour of the birtla-day of the courier 
 Bergami. Now he apprehended the 
 single fact he bad described on board 
 the polacca, would iu itself be sufficient 
 evidejice of the fact which it wa"? the 
 object of the evidence to establish. 
 He would not fatigue their lordships* 
 attention by entering into a minute 
 detail of the various degrees of unbe-- 
 coming familiarity with her menial, 
 and as he might express it, the iuder 
 cent exhibitions to which lier majesty 
 bad reduced herself on board that 
 ship ; he would rather leave their lord. 
 ships' to foim their own general im- 
 pressions froHt the evidence ; but he 
 could not forbear uientioning, tint i( 
 would be proved before them that she 
 hadj throughout the voyage, occupied 
 ; herself in' the most menial offices for 
 i this servant that a woman could do fur 
 j Kian : that she had eren at limes en- 
 ! gaged herself ii> mending- his clothes. — 
 j On arriving in Italy, in September, the 
 princess proceeded to the villa d'Esfe^ 
 I on the lake of Como, which she had 
 I occupied before, and on reaching- that 
 j place, Bergami's brother was elevated 
 to the situation of prefect of the pa- 
 lace. His mother— who w{is familiarly 
 
TRTAt OF THE QlJEE^f• 
 
 15 
 
 t(»rmp»\ the grandmether, not only by j 
 lier uii\jesty*s sniie, but by hor ni:ijes- ! 
 ty iMTsflf — was ii«)W ordciod to he. j 
 called MiuUune Li via, and the mother i 
 and brother bad separate tables j)io- j 
 tided for thciu tVo« the rest of ilie ^i- i 
 vanta. I 
 
 After what he bad sUited !« their j 
 lordships lie should Hot trespass on | 
 their atteiitMtn by nieiiliouing- \arij)tis | 
 other eircnuistauces that occurred at ! 
 that pltiee to support the charge. He i 
 might, however, njeulion, tliat, diiriu"- 
 Jier majesty's absence from d'Este, a 
 theat/e had been Utled up iu iliat villa. 
 On her return tiiither she often per- 
 formed on the ita^e — slie in one cha- 
 racter and Bero-ami in another. The 
 characters she performed were of a very 
 low kind. Beroaiui oc»eralIy performed 
 the chiiracter of the -lover. He oiily 
 stated this a-> another proof of the g-reat 
 degree of familiurilj which subsisted 
 between them. 
 
 Soon after her return to d''E!>te she 
 made a tour to Luyaiio, and some other 
 jdaces. In the course of (his tour a 
 Temarkable circumsfaiice occurred : — 
 One morninpf a courier was despatched 
 ■with a letter to a p<Mson at Milan, and 
 returned with an tiuswer late that night, 
 or rather early next morning-, while oil 
 the princesses household were at rest. 
 Tiie cornier, feeling- it to be hrs duly 
 to deliver the letter inunediately to 
 Berg-ami, whose office it was to receive 
 it, went to that person"'s chamber. He 
 Ivaa not there; but iu a short time he 
 iaw him coming: iu l>is sliirt, and rohe- 
 de-ch:tmbre, ont of the p»-incess's 
 chamher to his own. Here he would 
 ask how it had happened that at that 
 fcour, when all the other members of 
 the famify were at rest, this man should 
 he seen coming- in that undress from 
 l«i« mistress's room ? Observing- thai 
 tbe oircumsfante was noticed by the 
 eourier, and being desiron^ of wmking 
 some excuse, he told him tiiat he had 
 Tieard bis child cry, and had g-one to 
 ^uiet her, and the next mornings he 
 desired tfee courier to say Hothrng 
 *boiit it. But the fact forcibly struck 
 the man, anrl the infereMce from it was 
 l»!aii«. Bergami Jiaving come out of 
 the princes -'h room at tliat unsca on- 
 able lioiir, their chambers, atso being- 
 teparaied from those of the rest of the 
 family, how was the occurrence to be 
 aecunnted for, except by the supposi- 
 tion that a criminal intercourse existed 
 b; Iwecn them ? This fact aloue would 
 
 be sufficient to convict a woman in an 
 ordinary case. No reason coald be 
 assigfiied for Der^j^ami's conduct o« the 
 occasion, but that \vhi<;h he had been so 
 oftea obliged to state to their loci- 
 ships. 
 
 After a short time the princess vi- 
 sited a place which had since beea 
 purchased at her expense for Bergami, 
 and to this he particularly wished t» 
 direct their lor(l-hip*s attention. It 
 was called the Villa Bergami, or Ba- 
 rona. Not content with having- pre- 
 viously lavislied on him titles and ho- 
 nour-, sbe finally thouglit proper ti» 
 expend several Ihousand pounds from 
 her own funds in the purchase of tbi« 
 estate for him near Milan. People do 
 not in g-eneral act without reason or 
 motive, and there was no assignable 
 reason or motive, for the prineess's 
 conduct but one only. Her royal 
 highness resided for some time at that 
 place, and, during a carnival which 
 Mas held there, he was instructed to say- 
 that the most scandalous and- disg^racc- 
 ful scenes occurred, and it would 
 appear that the house in which the 
 princess of Wales rei^ided deserved 
 rather the name of a comuion brothel 
 than of a palace. It was frequented 
 by persons not corresponding- to her 
 station and rank, who properly main- 
 tained their dignity, and would feel 
 themselves honoured by her patronage, 
 but by persons of the lowest class. 
 These were circumstances which he 
 should not have brought under their 
 lortlships' notice, if they had not o<5-* 
 curred, as he must presume, by the 
 queen's permrssiou. Undoubtedly, it 
 might be said, that if they took place, 
 iu iIm; kifcheii', the o/lices, or in the 
 lower part of feer majesty's bouse, 
 they oirghtnot to be taken notice of in 
 the slightest degree, as in that case it 
 could by no means be jiresumed that 
 she was neeesstirilj aware of them, 
 liuty unfortunately, their lordships 
 would observe that they did pass 
 under her majesty's notice : and, so 
 far from ex|)ressing- any deo;ree of dis- 
 like or disapprobation, she did know 
 I of them, and seemed to approve of 
 I them. Here,, again, it might be said, 
 j that although they proved a veiy un- 
 I becoiiiiiig- sort of improper und inde- 
 j cent conduct, they ought not to be 
 I taken to prove the existence of an 
 adulterons intercourse. But when 
 i they were taken in conjunction with the 
 other facts which he had meulioued. 
 
te 
 
 THE ATtORNEY CiENEftAt's g^EECll. 
 
 they <;ertainly went to shew, that 
 such an adulterous intercourse did 
 exist between her majesiy and Ber- 
 gami, and that the continuance of that 
 intercourse so opera; ed upon her ma- 
 jesty's mind as to render her entirely- 
 regardless of that dec6rum which she 
 ought to liave maintained. Their lord- 
 ships must see that though these facts 
 in themselves were entirely different 
 from the direct chaige against her 
 majesty, they afforded but loo strong 
 a corroboration of it. After her ma- 
 jesty's return to the Barona, she made 
 a journey through the Tyrol into Ger- 
 many. A remarkable circumstance 
 took place almost at the commence- 
 ment of that journey, which would 
 prove to their lordships beyond doubt, 
 that such an intercourse did exist. On 
 herarrivalat a place called Charnitz, 
 it was necessary that Bergami should 
 return to Inspruck, in order to obtain 
 a passport for the CDUtinuance of her 
 majesty's journey. It ap^>cared that 
 Bergarai was necessarily absent upon 
 his departure from Charnitz to In- 
 Kpruck, and, till his return, during 
 those hours at which her majesty and 
 her household were accustomed to re- 
 tire to rest, upon this occasion her 
 majesty had one of her fille-de-cham- 
 bres to sleep in her room during the 
 night* Bergami returned from In- 
 spruck in the middle of the night, and 
 what was the conduct then pursued by 
 her majesty? What, he should ask 
 their lordships, would have been the 
 conduct of a person under ordinary 
 circumstances who had gone upon such 
 a mission ? Their Iordshij)s would 
 naturally suppose that Birgami, re- 
 turning at the dead hour of night 
 retired to rest ? but no— -he came into 
 that room (her majesty's female at- 
 tendant being at that time there 
 asleep.) Upon his so comiug in, her 
 majesty ordered her female attendant 
 to retire, taking her bed along with 
 her. In the middle of the night her 
 majesty gave these iUi^tructions to her 
 female servant, and Bergami was left 
 alone with her. Now what was the 
 reason for all this? 
 
 He H?ked their lordships \\hether 
 that fact alone, in ordinary cases, 
 would not be held a conclu-ive proof 
 of adultery? And he would ask them 
 also, with great submission, whether, 
 if it should be so considered in an or- 
 dinary case, it did not amount to a 
 Still stronger proof here — whether it 
 
 did not amount to a still Itrooger eiU 
 i dence of an adulterous iatercourse^ as 
 ! applied to the case of two penoDS 
 whose rank in life was so ditfcreni ? — 
 What other inference could their lord- 
 s-hips draw from the circumstance of 
 her majesty'* ordering the attendant 
 to retire, but that she might be so left 
 alone with Bergami for the remainder 
 of the night? Independent of any other 
 facts, supposing there were nothing else 
 in this case before them, thh alone 
 must satisfy their lordships that an 
 adulterous intercourse did then take 
 place between the panics. But this 
 was not all ; in the course of this jour- 
 ney her majesiy proceeded to Mn'nich, 
 and afterwards to Carlsrfaue, where sbef 
 remained nine days. At Carlsrhue, a 
 similar arrangement took place about 
 the bedrooms to that which he had so 
 often had occasion to call their lord- 
 ships' attention to. The bed-room dis- 
 tinguished by the number lO was ap- 
 propriated to the use of her majesty ; 
 No. 11 was an entry or passage-room 
 between No. 10 and No. 12. No. 12 
 was appropriated to the count Ber- 
 gami. A door opened from No. lO, 
 and another from No. 12, into No. 11^ 
 so that any one might pass without dif- 
 ficulty from the chamber occupied by 
 her majesty in.o the room in which 
 Bergami slept, or from Beigami's aj. ai t- 
 ment into her majesty's. He had now 
 to notice one very important circum- 
 stance. At Carlsrhue her majesty was 
 one day found in Bergami's room j 
 she was sitting upon his bed, and he 
 was in bed with his arms around the 
 neck of her majesty. She was sur- 
 prised in this extraordinary situation 
 by one of the femmes-de-cltambre, whor 
 was going into the room by chance; 
 Now, would a circumstance of this 
 sort take place, he would ask, unless 
 that kind of intercourse existed be- 
 tween the parties to which he was so 
 often reluctantly obliged to call their 
 lordships' attention f In that bed was 
 found a cloak which her majesty was 
 afterwards seen wearing ; and in that 
 bed, also, certain marks w ere observed 
 by one of the servants. These marks, 
 without his saying any thing further at 
 present, would lead their lordships, 
 perhaps, to infer that which he wished 
 them to understand. These marks on,; 
 that bed — the cloak which was found 
 there — and the manner in which Ber- 
 gami was seen with his arms around 
 her majesty's peck— these ^ere cir^ 
 
tHE ATtORNEY-GENERAL S SPCFX'll. 
 
 17 
 
 tumttaaces their lordships could nut 
 lose sijfbt of. Afier heariusj these, 
 could tbere be any doubt about the 
 existence of an adulterous iutercouise 
 betweeu her mafesty and Bergami. 
 These facts aloue, he thought, would 
 be conclusive evidence with their lord- 
 ships of an adulterous intercourse hav- 
 ing taken place between them i and 
 then, he had also to remark, that all 
 the other facts of thiB case would go to 
 show their lordships that that inter- 
 course had so taken place, not now and 
 then merely, l)ut that it was a low^- 
 coutinued one. When these should 
 have been stated, they would sufiici- 
 eutly explain all the other circumstan- 
 ces which he had had to mention ; the 
 advancement of Itergami to the ho- 
 nours which were conferred on him ; 
 the circumstances that occurred at 
 Carlsrhue ; those which took place at 
 Charuitz, and the others which were 
 observed on board the polaeca, 
 would all demonstrate conclusively, if 
 they should be proved (as he believed 
 they would be proved in evidence), 
 liot oiiiy that the conduct stated in the 
 preamble of the bill had subsisted, but 
 that the adulterous intercourse had 
 taken place between these two persons. 
 From Carlsrhue her majesty set ouf^in 
 the early part of 1B17. 
 
 CA peer, we believe lord EUenbo- 
 rougb, here besjged the Attorney-Ge- : 
 ueral to particularize the dates of every 
 fact he staled, as nearly as possible.) 
 
 The Attorney-General resumed. — I 
 Her majesty set out fjr the Tyrol, in 
 February, 1817 ; her arrival at Carls- 
 rhue, consequently, would occursouie- 
 where about the latter end of Febru- 
 ary, or the beginninjT of March, 1817. 
 Her majesty visited Vienna, where she 
 remained only for a very short time ; 
 and then she went to Trieste. Upon 
 that journey to Trieste, a two- wheeled 
 carriage was purchased by Ber^ami, 
 m which the queen and himself tra- 
 velled together. Before this her ma- 
 jesty had been accustomed to travel in 
 a carriage, in which were herself, Ber- 
 pmi, the countess of Oldi, and the 
 little Piccaroon (her majesty's prole- 
 gee). On her journey, however, a 
 carriage was used calculated to cou- 
 taiu only two persons ; and in which 
 Bergami and her majesty usually tra- 
 velled together alone. At Trieste she 
 remained but a few days; but here 
 again observations were made by per- 
 sons at Trieste upon the state pi her 
 '-3 
 
 majesty's bed and berl-roum. Here 
 a^iiiu, &fi in ail the other cases be had 
 adverted to, an arrangement was made 
 about the situation of the bed-rooma^ 
 in order for Bergami to be very near 
 her maje>ty. Tliere was a travelling 
 bed and a Ijed lar^e enough to contain 
 two persons. From the arrangement 
 he spoke of, Bergami's room was very 
 near her majesty's, and these observa- 
 tions were made upon the state of those 
 two beui. It would appear to their 
 lordships in evidence, that there was 
 found the painful appearance of two 
 persons having slept in the large bed 
 which was in her majesty's bed-room 5 
 at the same time that in the smaller 
 bed neither Bergami nor any other per- 
 son apfieared to have slept. At this 
 time also there were washing-basins 
 left in her majesty's room, which ap- 
 peared to have been used in thatroom> 
 and by two persons. But the strong 
 fact, as he had before had occasion to 
 observe, was— not only were the rooniB 
 of her majesty and Bergami near each 
 other, separate and apart from the re^t 
 of the suite, but there were those ap- 
 pearances of two persons having slept 
 in the large bed in her majesty's aparti* 
 ment, and Bergami was the only per- 
 son, who, from the arrangement of the 
 rooms, could have access to that one, 
 in order to sleep with her. No other 
 person but he could have that access. 
 Under these circumstances, their lord- 
 ships could feel little doubt or hesita- 
 tion but that the two jiersons who slept 
 in her majesty's room upon this occa- 
 sion were herself and Bergami ; and 
 that not only from the state and situa- 
 tion of the room but f gm the state of 
 the beds. He now came to another 
 circumstance of a most extraordinary 
 character. In the course of this jour- 
 ney her majesty and Bergami fre- 
 quently, when they had occasion to 
 stop, while the horses were refreshed 
 or put to, and upon any other occasion 
 where it was necessary for them to 
 stop for a short space of time, would 
 repose upon the same bed. They 
 would frequently, it was observed, 
 when some delays of this sort took 
 place, go and sit there together. Now 
 he was aware, it might be said, that no 
 conclusion of a criminal nature could 
 be drawn from the circumstance of 
 Bergami and her majesty^s being ob- 
 served to repose upon the same bed. 
 From that circumstance alone, un- 
 aided by others, their lordships could 
 
16 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEIiN. 
 
 not deeiii it proved thiit an atliilrerons 
 iiitercoorse took place between tlie 
 parlies at Milan. But when lh<^ir lord- 
 BJiips observed all tluse additional cir- 
 cumstances, and particularly the faci- 
 lity, wjjich was extended ti> no other 
 person, of entering- her room, and their 
 familiarity — all these things naturally 
 led to a strong- suspicion of such an in- 
 tercourse between tliem. Their lord- 
 ships njust be satisfied that Uie infer- 
 ence to be drawn from these, and from 
 other circumstances arising- out of her 
 majesty's conduct, was that such a one 
 existed between them. It might be 
 supposed, tliat the Princess of Wales, 
 as she was at that time, wishing-, on 
 such occasions, 'to repose, used to be 
 attended by some other of lur house- 
 hold ; by the counfess of Oldi, for in- 
 stance, or some other female attendant. 
 But how was it that Bergarai alone, 
 on the contrary, could venture to use 
 Uio-e familiarities with her majesty ? 
 How was it that Bergami alone retired 
 with her, but because there did take 
 place this sort of intercourse between 
 them? Upon her majesty's return from 
 Milan, where she had been for some 
 lime, to the Barona, it would be proved 
 to their lordships that Bergan)i, his 
 mother, and his brother (Ludovico 
 Bergami,) who had formerly exercised 
 some of the most menial offices in the 
 palace, weie permitted to dine with 
 ^er majesty ; they were allowed to sit 
 and to eat at her majesty\s table. Even 
 to this fact, he was aware, it mig-ht be 
 said that it was only indicative of g-reat 
 condescension on the part of her ma- 
 jesty ; and that, though such conduct 
 was inconsisteut with propriety, and 
 vrilh her rank and dig-nity as queen, 
 it proved nothing of itself, beyond a 
 desire to show her estimation of the fa- 
 mily, and to pay attention to Bergami's 
 mother, nnd bis brother Lewis. But 
 it was not a little sing-ular that these 
 persons were the family of the man on 
 whom her maj(fsty had been bestowing 
 tJiese attentions, and who were, daily 
 g-rowina; round her. As for the mo- 
 ther of Bergami, he (the Attorney- 
 General) could not find that she had 
 filled any particular situation in her 
 majesty's household. She was not 
 made lady of honour. The little Pic- 
 caroon was dig-uified by the title of 
 *' Princess," and taken g^reat notice of. 
 He did not mention these circumstan- 
 ces us going to prove any thing- which 
 was particularly applicable to Ber« 
 
 ganii. The boy Austin was called a 
 prince, as well as the other protegee. 
 After her majesty returned to the Ba- 
 rona she visited the Villa d'Este. 
 Thence she returned to Kouie, to a 
 palace called Rucanelli. Soon after- 
 wards she purchased a villa, called the 
 Villa Branti. During her residence at 
 Rucanelli her majesty Mas seen to go 
 into Berg-ami's bed-room : but at Villa 
 Branti their lordships would find mort 
 important circumstances to have oc- 
 curred, as affecting this case. At tU« 
 Villa Branti, as at all the other places 
 where her majesty resided, it was ar- 
 ranged thatBergami's apartment should 
 be very near that of her majesty} and 
 there was a communication through a 
 corridor from Bergami's bed-room 
 injo her majesty's. Bergami was ob- 
 served, by one of the servants, two or 
 three tim*>s, and at a very early hour of 
 the morning, going from his own 
 bed-room into that of the Princess of 
 Wales, and there remaining with her 
 majesty. 
 (A peer asked when this occurred.) 
 The Attorney-General replied, that 
 it happened some time in the month of 
 July, 1817. Their lordships would 
 have it proved to them, that upon two 
 or three occasions it was observed, that, 
 either at night, or at an unseasonably 
 early hour of the morning, when tb^ 
 rest of the family were retired to rest, 
 Bergami was seen coming from his 
 sleeping apartment and going into that 
 of her majesty, and there remaining. 
 He would ask their lordships what 
 this fact proved ? Could they doul>t 
 thata man, going in that way, at an 
 early hour of the morning, when her 
 majesty was in bed, going lo her room., 
 and remaining there with her majesty, 
 could they dt)ul)t that he was guilfy. 
 Would their lordships require any fur- 
 ther evidence of adulterous intercourse 
 between these parlies ? Could it be at 
 all doubted in an ordinary case ? Could 
 it be doubted whether such an inter- 
 course took place, if a man under thesv 
 circumstances, at the dead hour of 
 night, or at an early hour of themori>w. 
 ing, was seen to go, undressed, into 
 the room wherein her majesty was re- 
 posing, was there suffered to be alon« 
 with her, to remain with her, and was 
 not seen to come out, even from ihat 
 room ? Could any doubt remain upou 
 their lordships* minds, that, during that 
 period, adulterous intercourse took 
 place betweea these parties ? Surely 
 
THE ATTORNEY GRNHRAl. S SPEECH. 
 
 19 
 
 not, as he imagined — more especially 
 uhen their loidsliips found, as they 
 would find, that this was not a solitary 
 instance of this improprifty; for I he 
 thing occurred two or three times at 
 the Villa Brauti. At the Villa Braiiti, 
 a« on other occasions, tieri^ami was ad- 
 mitted into her majesty's presence 
 when siie was dressing, and at her 
 toilet; when her majesty, in short, 
 «vas in that state of dishabille which 
 made such admission very highly im- 
 proper. He was admitted at all times, 
 and suUVred to be present when her 
 attendants were attiring her. In ad- 
 dition to this, their lordships would 
 tind, as he had said before, the fact of 
 bergami's entering her majesty's room 
 at night, in the manner already de- 
 scribed, observed, several times <luring 
 her residence at Braiiti. From Branti 
 her majesty removed, in the month of 
 August, to her villa near Pesaro, where 
 she aftf rwards almost entirely resided. 
 At Pesaro the princess chose rooms 
 for herself and Bergami, separate and 
 apart from the rest of her suite ; and 
 at Pesaro, the same facilities of inter- 
 course were continued which had been 
 attended to at almost every place which 
 her majesty had visited, and every- 
 Tfhere she had taken up her residence. 
 So attached did her majesty always 
 appear to the person and society of 
 Bergami, that his absence seemed to 
 occasion her considerable pain. The 
 greatest interest and anxiety for his 
 return were constantly expressed by her 
 majesty, and she appeared to be high- 
 ly gratified when that occurred. She 
 was accustomed to watch for his re- 
 turn : and upon one occasion actually 
 set out to meet him. Upon his at length 
 returning, she was observed to express 
 the greatest joy, and all that fondness 
 and attachment which might be sup- 
 posed to exist for each other in two 
 persons between whom such an inter- 
 course existed. 
 
 [Some lordi here asked, what was 
 the date of the transactions said to have 
 taken place at Pesaro ?] 
 
 The Attorney-General said, (he 
 month of August, la 17, 
 
 The Lord-Chancellor thought it 
 might be convenient for Mr. Attorney- 
 General to give the dates of these facts 
 as he went on. 
 
 The Attorney-General ibriefly reca- 
 pitulated the dates of those to yvhich 
 lie had adverted in the course of his 
 »peech. Her majesty arrived at Trieste 
 in April, 1817, about the 28th of June, 
 
 at the Viila I'ranti, within a few days 
 of her arrival at Milan. .She was at 
 the Barona in Ap il, 1817. In Febru- 
 ary of that year, she set out upon her 
 t<»ur into Germany, through tlie Tyrol, 
 whence she returned to tiie Barona in . 
 April ; from hence slie went to Rome, , 
 where she purchased Rucauelli and , 
 Villa Branti, in Juiiet and July; and 
 then she went to Pesaro on the yth of 
 August of that year. From the period 
 of her maji^sty's departure for this 
 country, excepting only tlie short time 
 she was in France, she continued to 
 reside at Pesaro. He had abstained 
 as much as possible, in the course of 
 his narrative from cuieriug upon parts 
 of the evidence applying to other 
 places. After her majetty took up her 
 residence at Pesaro, she generally re- 
 mained there, with only one or two ex- 
 ceptions. 
 
 Lord Dundas asked at what period 
 the acts alleged as occurring at Pesaro 
 took place ? 
 
 The Attorney-General believed, 
 soon after her Majesty's going to Pe- 
 saro, in August, 18 17. He liad, he 
 said, abstained, in this case, from going 
 through a variety of particular detail 
 of what would be disclosed in evi- 
 dence respecting her Majesty's resi- 
 dence at Villa d'Este, where she re- 
 sided for a considerable time, on the 
 banks of the Lago di Como. It would 
 be proved in evidence ihut she was 
 there in the habit of going out with 
 Bergami in a sort of carriage large 
 enough for only one person to sit 
 down, and another to sit upon his 
 lap. In this carriage she was in the 
 habit of going out with Bergami, she 
 sitting upon his lap, and he with his 
 arms round her, which it was abso- 
 lutely necessary that he should have, 
 in order to enable him to guide the 
 horse. It would be proved that they 
 were seen together in a canoe upon 
 the lake ; and, on one occasion, they 
 were seen bathing together, in the river 
 Brescia. 
 
 During her residence at Como they 
 were observed together in very inde- 
 cent situations ; and a variety of fami- 
 liarities of that sort would be proved, 
 during her residence at Como, by a 
 variety of witnesses, and upon various 
 occasions, which their lorpships would 
 think, at present, it became him to ab- 
 stain from more particularly noticing. 
 He only adverted to them to prove the 
 facilities of intercourse which existed. 
 On her return from the east, sb« 
 
20 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN, 
 
 brought in her train a man, who, from 
 the accounts given of him by the wit- 
 nesses, appeared to have been a man 
 of brutal and depraved manners to the 
 last degree; his name was Mahomet, 
 who, at the Villa d'Este, at various 
 times, exhibited the most atrocious in- 
 decencies in the presence of her ma- 
 jesty, Bergarai beiug present with her 
 majesty during the time of those exhi- 
 bitions, 'i'hey were of so iudecent 
 and detestable a character, that it was 
 "With the greatest pain he could even 
 Miention them. Here it might be said, 
 that these circumstances did not prove 
 adultery; but if it were proved, tbe 
 preamble of the bill, he should con- 
 tend, was made out. It would excite 
 in their lordships a feeling that it 
 proved more — not merely indecency, 
 and disgusting indecency, but a want 
 of all moral feeling. He said that the 
 woman who could demean and degrade 
 herself to be present at such an exhi- 
 bition, and no man could doubt it, that 
 such a woman was capable, not only 
 of sacrificing her virtue, but that in the 
 moat undisguised and disgusting man- 
 ner. These facts went to prove, not 
 only that part of the j reamble which 
 charged disgusting and improper fa- 
 miliarity, but suggested proof also 
 of the adulterous intercourse* Could 
 their lordships have any doubt, where 
 a woman was capable of acting thus, 
 \ that when Bergami and she were in 
 
 her room alone, and had all the ne- 
 cessary facilities, that took place 
 which was charged against her, viz 
 adulterous intercourse with Bergami. 
 There was another circumstance, — no 
 way?, however, remarkable, in her 
 majesty's case, because it was always 
 the accompaniment or the forerunner 
 - of such a vicious state. Let them 
 mark the ascendancy which this man 
 had obtained over the mind of her ma- 
 jesty. This circumstance, however, 
 occurred. Their lordships would find, 
 that, '• /On her majedly's iirst going to 
 Italy, she did that, constantly, which 
 compor ed with her dig^ ity as an 
 English princess; and, let him add 
 as a protestant princess. She eitfier 
 had divine service regularly performed 
 ailiome, or attended placts where it was 
 performed after the rites of the church 
 of England. This regulation continued 
 until a short time after she returned to 
 Genoa, where Bergami fir^t entered 
 into her service ; but from that time 
 down to her departure for .^^.ngland it 
 was coatiouedj ind she was seen to 
 
 accompany Bergami to a place of Ca- 
 tholic worship which he himself fre* 
 quented, to join in the prayers of the 
 service, and to kneel down by his side. 
 Such was her abandonment of those 
 religious feelings and riles which 
 ought to be tibserved by all persons 
 under all circumstances. She de- 
 meaned herself to accompanry this man, 
 which was an act degrading and dis- 
 gusting in itself; but he could not help 
 thinking it a strong corroboration and 
 confirmation of all the other facts 
 which he had detailed : and it muit sa- 
 tisfy their lordships that this disgrace- 
 ful and illicit intercourse did take 
 place between Bergami and her ma- 
 jesty, a> it had been stated to them. 
 Let their lordships look at the general 
 nature of the case, and, besides this, 
 let them look at some of those strong 
 facts which more especially confirmed 
 the charge. This Bergami was a man 
 in the greatest poverty. In October, 
 1814, he was received into her ma- 
 jesty's service, and in the short course 
 of live or six months, he was not only 
 in habits of the greatest familial ity 
 with her, but his whole family sur^- 
 rounded her. Their lord-hips would 
 allow him to call their attention to the 
 state of her majesty's establishment, 
 while settled at Pesaro. There was 
 Bergami himself, the grand chamber- 
 lain ; his mother, who did not appear 
 to have held any particular situation 
 in her household; his brother Lewis, 
 who, from the humble station of a 
 courier, had been promoted to be her 
 equerry ; the countess of Oldi, the 
 sister, who was only maid of honour ; 
 Francis Bergami, their cousin, was dig 
 nified with the title of Director of 
 the Palace; Faustina, the sister ; Mar- 
 tin, a page; Frances, a relation ; and 
 the hou^e-steward, besides the Picca- 
 roon. So that their lordships would 
 see that there were ten, as he might 
 say^ of this family, retained in her ser- 
 vice. And, to account for the striking 
 fact of their being advanced in this 
 way in favours and honours, w^hat was 
 to be said? How was it to be ac- 
 counted for? It miji^ht well be said, 
 indeed, in answer to that question, 
 " Don't from tliese facts alone infer 
 guilt; don't from these iuier adulte- 
 rous intercourse. " Why, no, he would 
 not ; if he did infer it from riiese a- 
 lone, he should be betraying that duty 
 which they had imposed upon him, 
 , and which he was j)ledged to perform. 
 But when, in addition to these drcum* 
 
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL'S SPEECH, 
 
 21 
 
 •tenccs, their lordships found that all 
 those disgraceful familiarities conti- 
 nued between them — (and he alluded , 
 more |)articularly to the scene in ihe ; 
 tent on board of tho polacca) — when 
 they looked at what occurred at Ciiar- ' 
 nitz, at Carbrliue, and other places — 
 surely these facts of themselves would j 
 be sutlicient ; but when coapled with i 
 0<hers, if they should be satisfactorily I 
 proved, they could not leave the slight- i 
 est doubt of the disgraceful conduct j 
 £harged in the preamble, and of the 
 shameful and wicked intercourse j 
 which took place between count I 
 Ber5;ami and her majesty. But their 
 lordships had heard it said at their 
 bar, and said with a sort of triumph by 
 bis learned friends—*' What witnesses 
 have you? Mow is all this to be 
 proved ? Will you attempt to prove 
 it? Have you any competent wit- 
 nesses ?" And their lordships had I 
 heard a great deal of undeserved ' 
 slandi-r heaped on foreign witnesses. 
 They had heard his learned friends say, 
 on the other hand, when speaking of 
 their client, " Oh ! we expect persons 
 X)f high rank, and character, and con- 
 sequence, in the country where the 
 circumstances are stated to have taken 
 place." Now, let their lordships look 
 at lire case, (t did not admit of such 
 wiinesses; it was when her majesty 
 was in retirement, and surrounded only 
 by her servants, that those facts took 
 place. Could there be any witnesses 
 of facts like these, but those whose 
 avocations and humble employments 
 gave iheui opportunities of seeing the 
 conduct of the parties from time to 
 time, and of exauiinini;: the beds and 
 bed-rooms? In cases of criminal con- 
 versation, 0^y never had— at lea&t, it 
 was very frequently quite impossible 
 and impracticable to have — any other 
 evidence but that of servants, or others 
 whose duties called them to different 
 parts of the house. 
 
 Bui it was said, and with something 
 like an air of exultation , « Aye, but 
 these are. foreign wUnesses," Foreign 
 witnesses! Let them look at her 
 majesty's conduct: why was it that her 
 majesty was abandoned by all her 
 other suite, by all her EiJgli-h servants? 
 why ? but that, after her arrival from 
 Milan, she seemed anxious to forget 
 that she was, or should be, an English 
 woman. Could she complain of those 
 foreign witnesses when she had shown 
 by ber conduct, what she thought of 
 
 Italian servants — what* she thonght of 
 this man, her favored Bergami ? Should 
 it be said, don't hear foreign witnesses, 
 there is the strongest objection to 
 them ! they arc not to be believed. But 
 he would ask them what did this hold 
 out to the public ? Was it not to say, 
 '* Go abroad, commit what crime you 
 please, carry on what c6nduct you 
 please ; however fliigi ious, you never 
 can be convicted in an English court 
 of justice." And why ? Because the' 
 fact can only be proved by foreign wit« 
 nesses, and they, we tell you before wc 
 hear them, are l^randed with infamy. 
 They are marucd for discredit ; there- 
 fore " go abroad, abandon yourself 
 to the most dissolute profligacy you 
 please ; it can never be proved in a 
 court of this country, for foreign wit- » 
 nesses are unworthy of belief." Wauld 
 their lordships listen to such argument 
 as this ? Let them pride themselves on 
 the superiority of the English charac- 
 ter, but let them not by a sweepings 
 condemnation declare that all foreign- 
 ers were unworthy of credit. It was 
 her majesty who had herself to thank, 
 if the facts could only be proved by 
 Italian witnesses. She had taken into 
 her household Italian servants, and 
 surely would not treat with such dis- 
 grace the person highest in her confi- 
 dence. If their lordships' condemna- 
 tion, however, extended to Italians, it 
 could hardly be applied to foreigners 
 of all countries and descriptions. He 
 wassatisfied,notvvithstanding the adroit 
 manner in which the case had been put 
 by his learned friends, w Jio presumed 
 that these witnesses would exercise 
 their faculty of locomotion, and take 
 the air at their ease, the observation 
 would make no impression on their 
 lordships' minds. Would to God those 
 witnesses could do so j but he would 
 recall to their lordships' remembrance 
 circumstances which had happened, 
 and ask whether the witnesses could 
 feel that security which they ought to 
 enjoy. It was disgraceful to the coun- 
 try that such circumstances had taken 
 place ; but he trusted that the public 
 mind would soon resume i.s former 
 calmness, and the popular clanioursub- 
 side. Upon the circumstances of the 
 case, it was hardly necessary for him 
 to add, their lordships were to decide 
 under a -acred obligation. It had been 
 said that the witnesses being foreigners, 
 were the less worthy of behef^and that 
 their testimony ought to be received 
 
2^2 
 
 TRIAL OP THE QUCBJf. 
 
 w^lth suspicion and distrust ; but the 
 conduct of her majesty, and the nature 
 of the case, made such evidence indis- 
 pensable. Their h)rdships would de- 
 cide upon its value, and, he doubted 
 I)ot, calmly and firmly pronounce their 
 judgment. He should now proceed to 
 call his wiine<ises. 
 
 A considerable pause now ent^ued. 
 Lord Erskine observed, that it 
 mishl be expedient to come immedi- 
 ately to an understanding^ with regard 
 to the situation of the witnesses, alter 
 they should have delivered their testi- 
 mony. It might be material to the 
 ends of justice that they' should' be 
 placed in a station of security, and be 
 forthcoming, if, on a subsequent occa- 
 sion, their presence should be found 
 necessary. 
 
 The Lord Chancellor said, that 
 in accordance with the usual course 
 of their proceedings, the witnesses 
 might be questioned before their depar- 
 ture from the house as to where they 
 were about to go. He agreed that they 
 ought to be kept within call, and remain 
 in attendance till the end of the cause ; 
 and therefore now moved, that the wit- 
 nesses do attend from day to day till 
 further orders. 
 
 This motion was immediately carried 
 tvithout opposition. 
 
 Lord King expressed a wish that 
 the house should distinctly understand 
 in what situation the witnesses would 
 be placed, and that it should be known 
 whether, on their coming to that bar, 
 they would be liable upon the evidence 
 which they gave to an indictment for 
 peijury. Their lordships were now 
 proceeding in a legislative capacity, 
 but the king's Attorney-General was 
 employed to conduct the case brought 
 under their consideration, /lliis, it 
 appeared, was done vipon an order of 
 the house itself. Undoubtedly their 
 lordships might commit a witness for 
 falsehood and prevarication, for the 
 term of their own sitting ; but as it was 
 not improbable that ihey might have to 
 revise parts of this proceeding, it was 
 desirable to learn whether the wit- 
 nesses should be in the same predica- 
 ment as in a court of record. 
 
 The Lord Chancellor said, that 
 if the noble lord's question were ; 
 put to his experience, he could make 
 no answer ; bnt on general principles 
 he would state his opinion, that the I 
 witnesses might be prosecuted at law i 
 for perjury. 1 
 
 Lord King observed, that his douljit 
 arose from the circumstance of their 
 now sitting, not in their judicial, but 
 in a legislative capacity. 
 
 The Earl of Liverpool remarked 
 that in his apprehension what might be 
 done in the case of an impeachment 
 might also be done upon this occasion. 
 Ijord King was of (opinion that this 
 was a question of law, not of parliamen- 
 tary privilege; but it might yet be 
 doubted whether a prosecution could 
 be commenced without the special 
 order of the house. 
 
 The Earl of Liverpool thought 
 the question would be, whether the 
 house Moidd interfere to stop a prose- 
 cution ? 
 
 Earl Grey said a few words, upon 
 which the conversation dropped. 
 
 Her majesty at this moment entered 
 the house, attended as usual by lady 
 Ann Hamilton, and took her seat in a 
 chair placed within the bar, about the 
 distance of three y^rds from it, and 
 which, though not directly opposite to, 
 enabled her to confront the witnesses. 
 
 THEODORE MAJOCHl. 
 
 The Solicitor-General then called 
 Theodore Majochi, who, in a very 
 few moments was ushered in, and 
 placed before the bar. He is a man of 
 middle stature, decent appearance, and 
 was handsomely attired. 
 
 Her majesty, having fixed her eyes 
 nn him, exclaimed in a piercing tone, 
 " Theodore ! oh, no, no ;" and was im- 
 mediately conducted to a private apart- 
 ment. 
 
 The Solicitor-General applied to 
 their lordships to allow the Mar- 
 chese Nicolas Spinetto to be sworn 
 as an interpreter, the witness being an 
 Italian, and utterly ignorant of the 
 English language. 
 
 1 he interpreter was then sworn. 
 
 Mr. Brougham asked, whether he, 
 appeared by an order of the house, 
 or at the instance of the party pro- 
 moting t he present bill. He wished to 
 ascertain this point, because upon the 
 answer which he received vvould de- 
 pend his right to introduce an interpre- 
 ter on the part of her majesty. 
 
 The Lord Chancellor thought there 
 could he no objection to enquiring of 
 the interpreter himself by whom he 
 had been engaged to otfer himself to 
 the house in that capacity. 
 
 Mr. Brougham then addressed the 
 Marcbese Spiuelto api asked in whose 
 
^'^ ' ''%^^vr' C-'4fay^^r-A^_ ^. 
 
 /y-( /' 
 
 "^^-^ ''' "■'^ 
 
 
EVIDENCE OF THEODORK MAJOCHI. 
 
 23 
 
 employment he appeared there as iii- 
 lerpreier ? I received my instruclious 
 from Mr. Plauta and Mr, Maule. 
 
 Mr. Brougham. Do you mean 
 Mr. Planta of^the Foreijfu-office, and 
 Mr. Maule, solicrior to the Treasury ? 
 I do. 
 
 iMr. Brougham. That, then, is 
 quite a sufficient reason for my desiring 
 to have a second interpreter sworn. 
 Though il may nwt, strictly speaking, 
 be necessary at this moment, it may be 
 inore convenient to sn^ear him imme- 
 diately, 
 
 Beneditto Cohen then took the usual 
 oath to interpret faithfully all the evi- 
 dence which the witnesses might de- 
 liver. 
 
 Mr. Brougham said he understood 
 that the witness at the bar did not 
 object to the form of being sworn, but 
 lie submitted to their lordships that it 
 might be proper to enquire whether 
 he had undergone those preparations 
 which were necessary in his own coun- 
 try before his evidence could be 
 received in acourt of justice. 
 
 The Lord Chancellor entertained 
 no dou)>t, that, if the witness was 
 sworn according to the forms of 
 this country, and was himself satisfied 
 with that mode of attestation, his evi- 
 dence was upon every legal principle 
 admissible. 
 
 Theodore Majochi was then sworn, 
 and, in answer to a question suggested 
 by her majesty's counsel, emphatically 
 Jftated that he considered himself to be 
 brought there to speak the truth, and 
 uuthing except the truth. 
 
 The Solicitor-General proceeded to 
 examine him after the following man- 
 ner : — 
 
 Of what coimtry are you a native.'' 
 I was born at Stolingo. 
 
 Is that in Italy ? It is twelve miles 
 from Lodi. 
 
 Do you know Bartholomew Berga- 
 mi ? Yes. 
 
 When did yi»u first become ac- 
 <juainted with him ? In the service 
 ^f general Pino. 
 
 At what time did you first know 
 Lim ? It was in the year 1813 or the 
 year 1814. I knew him by being io 
 tlie same service. 
 
 (By Mr. Brougham.) Do you under- 
 Uand English ? No, not at all. 
 
 It what situaiion was Bergami when 
 in the service of general Pin(» ? He 
 %tas tliere as a serv«iutj a valet^e* 
 cbuuibre< 
 
 [ What situation did you youfteK 
 t hold at I hat period? I was the posti- 
 ! lion, or rider. 
 
 1 Do yuu know what wasthe condition 
 ; of Bergami at that time in point of fi- 
 ! nances ? He was rather poor thaa 
 ; rich. 
 
 What waofes did he receive ? Three 
 { livres of Milan a day. 
 I Do you know whether he was pos- 
 j sessed of any property besides the 
 j wages that he received ? No. 
 
 What do you mean by no ? Do you 
 mean that you do not know, or that he 
 was not possessed »f any separate pro- 
 perty ? 1 do not know more than that 
 he received three livres a day. 
 
 Did you leave the service of general 
 Pino before Bergami quitted it ? I did. 
 Into what service did you enter? I 
 went to Vienna, and was in the service 
 of the Duke of Roccomania as his 
 postilion. 
 
 Did you afterwards enter any ser- 
 vice at Naples ? Yes, into that of ge- 
 neral Joachim Murat. 
 
 Was Murat at that time king of Na- 
 ples ? He was. 
 
 Did you there see Bartholomew Ber- 
 gami ? Yes, I did. 
 
 When did you see him there for the 
 first time ? In June, I believe. 
 
 Mr. Brougham said he had ob- 
 jections to urge to this course of exjv- 
 mination. He apprehended also that 
 it was competent to him to state his 
 objection to a question before the aor 
 swer was received. 
 
 The Earl of Liverpool observed^ 
 that the house would be better enabled 
 to judge of the force of any objectiuu 
 to a question after hearing theanswgf 
 10 it. 
 
 The Lord Chancellor found iiiraseU 
 compelled to admit that the objectioii 
 should be heard in thefiist instance, 
 as the answer might otherwise make 
 an impression, which, if the questioU 
 were over-ruled, it might be difficult 
 to remove. 
 
 The Solicitor-General resumed his 
 examination. — At what time did you 
 meet with Bergami at Naples ? About 
 Christmas, 1814. 
 
 In whose house ? In the house of 
 her royal higbuess the Princess of 
 Wales.' 
 
 In what situation was be at that 
 time? He was 'courier, and, it was 
 reported, equerry. 
 
 Can you tell us the precise time ? 
 At the begiiiiiiiJS of tbe y^r 1813, 
 
fU 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUKErf, 
 
 Do you recollect how long it was af- 
 ter you had been at Naples that you 
 met Bergfami ? 1 remember that he 
 told me he would make me a present. 
 
 Did you afterwards enter the service 
 of the Princess ? I did. 
 
 How l<»ng after you had met with 
 Bergami ? About a fortnight after- 
 nvards. 
 
 What was then the situation of Ber- 
 gami.? He was a lacquey, and wore 
 a livery. 
 
 At what table did he dine? Tliere 
 were two tables, and he dined at the 
 table of the upper servants. 
 
 By Lord Harrowby. — Who were 
 the other persons who dined at that 
 table ? There were, besides Bergami, 
 Monsieur Sicard, the maitre d'hotel, 
 M. Jeronimus, and the waiting- maid 
 bf the princess's dame d'honneur, 
 whose name, as she was an Englishwo- 
 man, I forget. 
 
 Did any other person divide the 
 duty about the person of the princess ? 
 Yes, M, Jeronimus, sometimes. 
 
 Was that by turns? The upper ser- 
 vants performed the duty by turns. 
 
 Did any one ever attend out of his 
 turn ? Jeronimus often carried in the 
 tray for the morning's dejeune. 
 
 Do you know what was the situation 
 of the sleeping rooms of the princess 
 and Bergami at that time? Yes, I re-, 
 collect it well. 
 
 Describe it. — The rooms of the prin- 
 cess and of Bergami led to each other 
 by a corridor, in which there was a 
 small cabinet. Bergami's bedroom 
 was situated to the left. 
 
 Are we to understand that there was 
 no space between the two rooms ex-' 
 cept what was taken up by the corri- 
 dor and the cabinet that you mention ? 
 There was nothing else ; and it was 
 necessary to pass through the corridor 
 to go from one room to the other. 
 
 What was there on tlie other side of 
 Bergami's bed-room ? A saloon. 
 
 Who usually slept in the cabinet ? 
 Nobody; it was free. 
 
 Did the rest of the family sleep in 
 that part of the house, or at a distance ? 
 Their rooms were separated. 
 
 Do you recollect any accident hap- 
 pening to Bergami ? Yes. 
 
 What was it, and where did it hap- 
 pen ? It was a kick from a liorse. 
 
 Jl^hen did it happen? When they 
 went to the lake Aniano. 
 
 In consequence of it, was he put to 
 bed? Yes. 
 
 Did you see the princess Jn his Toom 
 during his sickness? Yes,! saw her ^ 
 royal highness there on one occasion, 
 with Jeronimus and Dr. Holland, who 
 wasdressiiisf Bergami's foot. 
 
 Did you carry any broth to him?^— 
 Yes, 
 
 Did you see the princess on that oc- 
 casion ? No, I do not remember. 
 
 W'rre any direction given to yon as 
 to where you were to sleep after this . 
 accident? Yes, I remember. 
 
 Where was it? On the sofa in the 
 cabinet, and near the tire-place. 
 
 Was that the cabinet of which you 
 have been speaking ? It was. 
 
 How long did you continue to sleep 
 there ? Five or six nights. 
 
 Did you see any body pass during 
 any of those nights through the corri- ' 
 dor ? Yes, I did. 
 
 Was a tire kept there at the tiiiic ? 
 Yes, there was a tire always. 
 
 Who was it whom you saw pass ?— 
 Her royal highness. 
 
 Did she pass in a direction towards 
 Bergami's room ? Yes, she did. 
 
 How often did this happen during 
 the time you slept in the cabinet? 
 Twice. 
 
 Do you recoUectat what hour it hap- 
 pened the first time? About half 
 pa=t midnight. 
 
 How long did she remain in Berga- 
 mi's bedroom on the fiist occasion? 
 Ten or fifteen minutes. 
 
 In what manner did she pass? Very 
 softly : she came to my bedside, looked, 
 and passed on. 
 
 After ?he had entered Bergami's ' 
 room, did you hear conversation, or 
 any thing else, pas-s between them ? I 
 only heard whispering. 
 
 How long did the princess remain 
 the second time in Bergami's room? 
 About 15 oris minutes, more or less. 
 
 Was there a garden attached to the 
 house. Yes, a small one. 
 
 Was the door of it kept locke^,? 
 Yes. > 
 
 Who had the key? Bergami. 
 
 Did the princess ever walk in that 
 garden ? Yes. 
 
 How long did the princess remain at 
 Naples? About a month, or 40 or 50 
 day?. 
 
 Did the witness go with the princess 
 when she left Naples? Yes. 
 
 Before the princess left Naples and ^ 
 after witness entered into her service, 
 did any of. her En^li^b attendants 
 
EVIDENCE OF THEODOfiE MAJOCHI. 
 
 25 
 
 Joave Ini ? Yes, there were some of 
 "the English who left her. 
 
 Who were they ? 1 can't tell all. 
 
 •Say iirst who were the gentlemen 
 thri4 left the Princesp. There was 
 Monsieur Sioard, the Maitre d'Hotel, 
 and Captain Hesse. 
 
 What was Captain Hesse? I don't 
 know, but 1 believe lie was called an 
 Equerry. 
 
 Do you remember the other names 
 <&f those wlio left? No, I catft re- 
 member. 
 
 Was the name of Gell among them r 
 1 believe it whs. 
 
 Was he the Chamberlain? I don't 
 know ; he wore two small mustachios. 
 Was a gentleman named Captain 
 Keppel Craven among the English 
 \vho then left the Princess? I don't 
 "^ remember; but I tltink there was such 
 3kn English name who left the suite of 
 tlie Princess. 
 
 Did any of the English gentlemen in 
 attendance upon the Princess leave 
 lier at Naples ? Yes, but I can't re- 
 c<»llect their names. 
 
 Were there any ladies who left the 
 Princess? Yes, but I don't recollect 
 their names. 
 
 Did any of tliem quit the service of 
 the Princess ? Yes, but I forget the 
 namfs. There was one who went 
 away that was a small lady. 
 
 Do you recollect Lady Elizabeth 
 Forbes ? No* 
 
 Were you at Rome? Yes. 
 
 Where did you go from Rome ? T« 
 Civita Vecchia. 
 
 Did you embark there in any vessel 
 with the Princess ? Yes, we did; we 
 ■embarked on beard tlie Clorinde. 
 
 To what place did you go from Ci- 
 "vita Vecchia? To Leghorn, to pass a 
 little time there. 
 
 Did any of the English attendants 
 leave you at Leghorn? I don't re- 
 member. 
 
 Had you a Chamberlain? There 
 Wd6 a chamberlain ; a tall man; but I 
 don't know his name. 
 
 Did any of the Queen's attendant 
 leave her at Leghorn ? I don't remeof- 
 ber. 
 
 Where next did you go ? To Genoa. 
 
 Who accompanied or ni€t you there? 
 There was a Caplain Pownal, and 
 Lady Charlotte Campbell , I think she 
 was a tall, rather a fa» lady, and had 
 two (laughters. 
 
 How long did she stop with the 
 P rincess ? It migUi he about 14 or 15 
 days. 
 
 Wlierc did the Princess reside at 
 Grenoaf In a place near the road to 
 Rome. 
 
 Did Bergami sleep in that palace ? 
 Ye«. 
 
 Whecc was his room situated ? Near 
 the Princess's. 
 
 Was tliere a room between the 
 Princess's room-chamber and Berga- 
 mi's. Y<^. 
 
 Did any body occupy it? No, it was 
 akiggage-room, in which nobody slept. 
 
 W as that the only place between the 
 Prineess's room and Hergami's? Yes. 
 
 Might you, or might you not then, 
 pass directly from one room into the 
 other^ that is, from the Princess's 
 chamber into Bergami's ? Yes. 
 
 When you were at Genoa, where 
 did Bergaiiii breakfast? JSometimesin 
 a araail room at the top of the grabd 
 saloon. 
 
 Did be hreakfast alone, or with any 
 body? He and the Princess break- 
 fasted together. 
 
 For what were you hired ? As a 
 servant. 
 
 Were you hired to wait upon Ber- 
 gami, or on the Princess ? I was hired 
 not particularly to attend him, but to 
 be at the service of her royal Highness , 
 
 Did you wait upon her Royal High- 
 ness, or on Ber^ami in particular, or 
 on both? On both. 
 
 Was any other person in the habit of 
 breakfasting with Bergami and the 
 Princesji ? I saw nobody else. 
 
 Do you remeiiiber any thing parti- 
 cular occurring one night ? No. 
 
 Do you remember one night a cou- 
 rier coming from Milan ? I do not re- 
 member. 
 
 Do you remember any night ksock- 
 ing at a late hour at the door of Ber- 
 gami's chamber, to try and awake him 
 for any particular purpose ? Yes, I do. 
 
 On what occasion was it, or for what 
 purpose ? It was when some persons 
 came to crall upon him and say that 
 the people had arrived in the house 
 late. 
 
 Do you remember at what hoorr of 
 the night this happened ? I think it 
 was alK>ut half past one o'clock in the 
 night. 
 
 Did Bergami answer the witness's 
 knocking at his door? No. 
 
 Did yon knock so loud as that, in 
 your judgment, he must have lieard 
 you, had he been there? I think, had 
 he been there, he ought aad must luivf 
 heard me. 
 
 .4 
 
m 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUDHN. 
 
 Was the Princess In the habit of 
 going or riding out? Yes, she did ride 
 out sometimes. 
 
 In what manner did she ride out? 
 Sometitnes in company. 
 
 Did IJergami ride in her company ? 
 Yes, he did. 
 
 Have you seen them ride out toge- 
 ther? I have. 
 
 Did you at any time observe any 
 thing particular pass between the 
 Princess and Bergami on such occa- 
 sions, when they rode out together ; 
 Yes, he put his hands round her waist 
 to lift her upon the ass she rode. 
 • Any tiling else? Yes, he held her 
 hand while she rode, as if to prevent 
 lier Royal Highness from falling. 
 
 Was Bergami's manner like that of 
 the other servants in tfce house, or did 
 be appear different from them ? Yes, 
 lie was different. 
 
 Did he. seem to have more authority ? 
 Yes, he had more autbority thaH the 
 other servants. 
 
 Between him and the. Princess was 
 there any apparent distance, like that 
 towards the other servants; or was 
 there an apparent familiarity between 
 them? There was rather an intimacy. 
 
 Did Bergami continue to occupy the 
 same room during their whole resi- 
 dence at Genoa? I don't remember. 
 
 To what place did you proceed on 
 leaving Genoa ? To Milan. 
 
 Where did the Princess's establish- 
 ment first reside at Milan? At Casa 
 Carcana, Porta Nuova. 
 
 At what house ? At a house belong- 
 ing to a family of Boromeo. 
 
 Do you recollect, before the Princess 
 left Genoa, whether any of the relations 
 of Bergami were taken into her Royal 
 Highness's service? Yes, I remember 
 £ome. 
 
 What name? One was a female, 
 Faustina 
 
 Was she married or single ? I don't 
 know whether she Avas single or mar- 
 ried ; she came to the house without a 
 husband. 
 
 Was there a child brought into the 
 house ? Yes. 
 
 What was the child's name ? Vic- 
 toriner 
 
 Abon^what age did the child appear? 
 About three years old when she came. 
 Did the mother of the child come 
 with her ? No. 
 
 Did any body else come of the Ber- 
 gami family ? Yes, Lewis Bergami. 
 How were the rooms in the house 
 
 furnished when they came? In the 
 usual way. 
 
 How was Bergami's room situated 
 as to the Princess's ? The rooms were 
 separated by a wall. 
 
 How were the doors of the two 
 rooms placed as to each other? At first 
 there was an anti-room, on the right, 
 left for Mr. William; and Bergami's 
 was the room at the near side, next to 
 the Princess's. 
 
 Was there a door or a wall separat- 
 ing Bergami's from thePrincess'sroem, 
 or a staircase ? Yes, there was a land- 
 ing-place, which had a door opening 
 into it. 
 
 M'here was this landing-place? Be- 
 tween both rooms. 
 
 Did the door of each open into it ? 
 Yes, each door of the Princess's apart- 
 ment and of Bergami's opened- into it. 
 I The distance between the doors was 
 about iwo braccie, or about 7 or 8 feet. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM here observed, 
 that he trusted the Solicitor-General 
 would take care that no other witnesses 
 remained present while a witness was 
 under examination. This was the 
 practice in all other courts, and he had 
 no doubt, from its propriety, would be 
 adopted bv their lordships. 
 
 THE SOLICITOR - GENERAL 
 could have no possible objection to the 
 removal and separation of witnesses. 
 He was not aware that any witness for 
 the Bill was present, except the one 
 under examination. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR said 
 the rule of course embi-aced all the 
 witnesses, both for and against, always 
 of course excepting those whose duty' 
 it was to remain present. 
 
 The SOLICITOR GENERAL said 
 that his only wish was to have the 
 practice respecting witnesses observed 
 here as in other Courts. He wished 
 it to be strictly general. He put it, 
 therefore, taot alone, in point of strict 
 practice, but in candour to his learned 
 friend, (Mr. B\:ougham) to take care 
 that his witnesses should be excluded. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM replied, most uur 
 doubtedly, he had no other wish than 
 that the exclusion should be strictly 
 general. All whom he knew he in- 
 tended to call, he wished should be out 
 of the house: of course he could not 
 mean that the prohibition should ex- 
 tend to aay of those whose duty it was 
 to remain. There might be one or two 
 whose duty it was to remain, that he 
 might yet have hereafter to cJiU. 
 
EVIDENCE OF THEODORE MAJOCIlT. 
 
 2^7 
 
 ^Jrc SOLICn ORG EN ERALconi- 
 
 V»untod on tlie expression used by his 
 leeriud friend, " all whom he knewiie 
 intended to call.'' He submitted to liis 
 t^andi'ur whether all should not le- 
 ijuiin out that there appeared the 
 snuiiiest probability of his callnig. 
 
 Mr. J5 ROD GUAM assured his 
 learned friend that he did not mean to 
 s^eak eqnivocally ; he nit?ant to deal 
 faiily and candidly, and his learned 
 friend mi;.hl safely le?t\ e the matter to 
 his candour, as he had appealed to it. 
 Of course it was quite impossible for 
 iiim to know, at this moment, what wit- 
 ness might be necessary for him to call. 
 He could not tell, until his learned 
 friend's cast was closed, whether he 
 should rail any witnesses or not. If he 
 only heard such a witness as th€ pre- 
 sent called, he certainly should not call 
 any. (A laugh) He again assured 
 his learned friend that he meant to 
 exclude his witnesses until the time 
 arrived for their examination. 
 
 The examination of the witness was 
 resumed bv the SOLICITOR -G E- 
 JNERAL. 
 
 Were the staircase and landing-place 
 you allude to private, or did any other 
 door open into them? — The stair-case 
 and Innding-piace were private; the 
 stair-case led into a small apartment, 
 wJiich was unfrequented. 
 
 Did any body sleep in that small 
 apartment? — Yes, sometimes the bro- 
 ther of Bergami. 
 
 Were vou in the habit of waiting on 
 the Princess at breakfast? — Yes, some- 
 times. 
 
 Did any others so attend .? — Y'^es. 
 
 What others.? Sometimes Lewis 
 
 Bergami, and, occasionally, a courier 
 iiamed Cameron. 
 
 During the period of the general 
 residence of the Princess at Milan, did 
 she take a journey to Venice.'' — Yes, 
 Before she went, had Lady Charlotte 
 Campbell joined her? — I think not. 
 
 Where did she join her royal High- 
 ness with her daughters i — 1 think at 
 Genoa. 
 
 Do you know did Lady Charlotte 
 Campbell go from Genoa to Milan in 
 the same carriage with the Princess ? 
 I do not remember. 
 
 Did Lady Charlotte stay long with 
 her Royal Highness? — No. 
 
 Do you remember when she quitted ? 
 I think about live or six days before 
 the Princess set out for Venice. 
 Did Lady Charlotte go away with 
 
 her daughters? — I believe she did, for 
 the daui>hter8 were not seen in the 
 house after she went away. 
 
 Did any English lady of honour re- 
 main in the suite of the Princess after 
 Lady Charlotte left? I recollect none, 
 .. Did a person called the Countesaof 
 Oldi join the Princess? — She did. 
 
 When? — -About two or three days 
 after Lady Charlotte Campbell left. 
 
 Do you know whether she was any 
 relation of Bergami's? — It was report-^ 
 ed in the house she was his sister. 
 
 How was that known? It was 
 
 .spoken of. 
 
 Did witness himself know it?— Yes. 
 
 Was it at first generally known 
 through the household ? — Yes, soon 
 after she came. 
 
 How soon after? — About the time 
 when she was observed to have a place 
 at the Princess's table with the family. 
 
 When you arrived at Venice where 
 did you go? — To the Great Britain Ho- 
 tel , they afterwards went to the house 
 next by. 
 
 How were the bed-rooms occupied 
 by the Princess and by Bergami situate 
 in that house ? — They were next one 
 another. 
 
 Was there any division between 
 them .'' — Yes, only a grand saloon. (A. 
 laugh.) 
 
 Did both doors open into that sa- 
 loon? — Yes, they did. 
 
 Did witness ever see the Princess 
 walk out with Bergami? — Yes. 
 
 Where.?— Both at Milan and Venice. 
 
 In what manner did you see them 
 walk out together ?— Arm by arm, or 
 arm in arm, they walked out at Milan 
 and Venice. 
 
 Was this by day or by pight.? — At 
 night. 
 
 At what time of the night ; at what 
 what hour ? — After nine o'clock in the 
 evening; between nine and ten o'clock. 
 
 Did you ever see Bergami dine at 
 table with the Princess? — Y^es, several 
 times. 
 
 Where did yon first observe this? 
 At Genoa. 
 
 Did he continne to dine with the 
 Princess, after the first time, jou saw 
 him at dinner with herf — Always, as 
 far as I can recollect. 
 
 How used they to sit at table? — 
 Where did the Princess sit, and where 
 did Bergami ?— Sometimes in one place 
 and sometimes in another. 
 
 Did her Royal Highness sit at the 
 head of the table r--Sometimes she 
 
2» 
 
 TniAL OF THE Ql/EEW, 
 
 did, and Bcrgami sat often on her 
 right and often on her left, and some- 
 timet opposite to her. 
 ■. Was the Princess more than once 
 at Genoa while you were with her ? I 
 don^t remember. 
 
 Do you not rem ember when you em*- 
 barked at Genoa? 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM objected to this 
 ouestion. He could not >think tlieir 
 lordships would permit his ieamed 
 friend to make his own witness con- 
 tradict himself. If the answer were 
 given in one way, it might contradict 
 the preceding answer given by the 
 •witness. He must object to this way 
 *>f pursuing an examination. It was, 
 in fact, to put leading questions 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL dis- 
 claimed any intention of putting what 
 could with prof^riety be called a lead- 
 ing question. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR— 
 What H the question you ntean to put? 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL.— I 
 ■shall put it in this way, my lord — whe- 
 ther the witness after he left Genoa 
 ever returned there to embark for 
 Venice ? 
 
 Lord ERSKINE said, that though 
 lie thought a counsel might put one 
 question to a witness which would 
 have the effect of contradicting a pre- 
 ceding answer given by that witness, 
 ye.t that such a question ought not, nor 
 need not, be put in a leading shape. 
 
 The question was put to the witness, 
 who answered — I did embark from 
 Genoa. 
 
 Do you mean, then, that this fami- 
 liarity^ between the Princess and Ber- 
 gami took place the first or the second 
 time yon wiere at Genoa? I saw it 
 the first time. 
 
 Where did you go from Borromeo- 
 honse, at Milan? To tbeLakeofComo, 
 near Milan. 
 
 How long did yen remain there at 
 the time you allude to? About a month 
 and a half. 
 
 Where were the bed-rooms of Ber- 
 gami and the Princess, and those of 
 the other servants?— The bed-rooms 
 of the Princess andBei'gami were one 
 at one side, and the other at the op- 
 posite side of a- cabinet. There was 
 only a small passage which separated 
 them. 
 
 Was any part of your duty ttt assist 
 iu making Bergami's bed ? — Yes, it 
 was ; I made the bed. 
 
 Did you ever rt^mark that it hat! no^ 
 been slept upon? — I did. 
 
 The other servants lived separate in 
 another part of the house?— They did. 
 Did yon assist in niakin>r the beds of 
 the Princess and Berjrami? — I did. 
 
 Did you ebserve that either of the 
 beds had the appearance of having 
 been slept in by two persons? — They 
 had not that appearance always. 
 
 Conld yoH tell, from your observa- 
 tions of the bed^, whether or not Ber- 
 gami had always slept in his or else- 
 where? — It appeared as if he had not 
 always slept in it. 
 
 Did that happen often at the Villa 
 Villanr ?— Yes, 
 
 Do you remember the l*rinces8, at 
 the Villa Villani^ wearing a blue silk 
 bed-gown, liifed with red ? — I remem- 
 ber it. 
 
 After you saw the Princess wear the 
 blue silk gown, did you see Bergami 
 wear itP—^Tes. 
 
 Often ? — He always had it on. 
 In the presence of the Princess? — ' 
 Yes. 
 
 When yov say always^ do yon mean- 
 that he wore it always in the mornings 
 or during the whole day? Every morn* 
 ing when he made his toilette. 
 
 At what time did the Princess usu- 
 ally rise in the morning? — At half-past 
 10, 11, or half past 11. 
 
 When she rose did she usually ringr 
 for her servants, or call ? — Sometimes 
 she called, and sometimes rang; but 
 for the most part called. 
 
 Did Bergami rise at the same time, 
 or before, or after the Princess?— 
 Sometimes he got up at the same time ;. 
 sometimes a quarter of an hour later. 
 
 Where did the Princess go to from 
 Villa Villani ?— To ViUa d'Este. 
 
 How long had she stayed at Villa 
 Villani before s^e went to Villa d'Este? 
 Forty-five or fifty days. 
 
 Do you happen to recollect the re- 
 lative situations of the bed-rooms of 
 the Princess and Bergami at Villa 
 d'Este t — I do not remember, because 
 they were changed anew. 
 
 When were they changed? — When 
 they undertook the voyage to Egypt. 
 
 In what vessel did they embark at 
 Genoa? — In a man of war, the Le- 
 vilthan. 
 
 Where did they go in the Levia» 
 than?— To Porto Ferrajo. 
 
 Where did they go to next?-*ToPa- 
 l^ernio. 
 
ETIDET?fce Of THfODORE MAJOCHI. 
 
 29 
 
 t)fi(! the Princess go to court at 
 Palermo ? Yes. 
 
 By whom was she accompanied ? I 
 do not remember. 
 
 How long did she stay at Palermo ? 
 Twenty or twenty-five days ; bnt I do 
 rot remember. 
 
 M' lie re did you goto from Patermo ? 
 To Messina. 
 
 Did the Princess take a house in 
 Mes^iua, or near Messina ? Near Mes- 
 sina. 
 
 Do you know the relative situations 
 of the bed-rooms at Messina? Yes. 
 
 Were tbey near each other ? Be- 
 tween the room of the Princess, and 
 that of Bergami, there was a room in 
 which the dame d'honnenr slept. 
 
 Who was that dame d'honueur ^ A 
 Bister of Berganii. 
 
 Did the other persons of the suite 
 sleep in that part of the house, or in 
 another ? In another. 
 
 You have said timt the only room 
 between that of the Pvincess and Ber- 
 p:ami was slept in by the Countess 
 Oldi ; was tliere a communication 
 through that room between the apart- 
 ment of the Princess and that of Ber- 
 eranri ? Yes, it was necessary to pass 
 through the room of the dame d'hon- 
 nenr. 
 
 Then I am to understand that 
 through the room of the dame d'hon- 
 nenr there was a communication be- 
 tween the rooms of Bergami and the 
 Piinccss ? Yes. 
 
 Do yon recollect Bergami breakfast- 
 ing or eating with the Princess at Mes- 
 sina? Yes, I do. 
 
 Where was that? in what room ? 
 Beyond the Room where her Royal 
 Highness slept there was a cabinet 
 which led into a garden, and in that 
 cabinet they breakfasted. 
 
 Did they breakfast alone, or was any 
 other person with them > Alone, 
 
 Do you remember Bergami, at Mes- 
 sina, askinjr leave of the Princess to 
 go and make some purchases? I do. 
 
 Did the Princess give him leave ? 
 Yes. 
 
 Describe what took place between 
 thcra when he parted from her for that 
 purpose. — -I saw Bergami when the 
 Queen was going to take her break- 
 fast ; and he said, " Will your Royal 
 Highnfess permit me to go to Messina 
 te make some purchases?" and, having 
 obtained leave, gave a kiss to her lips 
 (bocca.) 
 
 How long did the Prihcess remain 
 
 at Messina? Twenty-five or twenty- 
 eight days, but I cannot say precisely. 
 To what place did she proceed from 
 Messina? To Syracuse, 
 
 Did she go by sea, or by land ? By 
 sea. 
 
 At Syracuse did she lodge in the 
 town, or in the neighbourhood? In 
 the neighbourhood ; out of the town. 
 
 Cim you describe the relative situa-> 
 tions of the bed-rooms of the Princess , 
 and of Bergami at that house ? Did 
 the Princess continue to live in the 
 same house she originally took at Syra- 
 cuse ? In the same. 
 
 Was it near the pier or mole ? About 
 a gunshot from it. 
 
 Describe tlie relative situation of 
 the bed rooms at that house. Mention 
 whether there was a private stair-case 
 communicating from one room to ano- 
 ther? There was. 
 
 Did that stair-case lead immediately 
 from one room into the other? Yes. 
 
 Was there another entrance into the 
 bed-room of the Princess, for the use 
 of persons waiting upon her? There 
 was, from the great chamber where 
 they dined. 
 
 Do you remember seeing Bergami 
 go into the room of the Princess with- 
 out being entirely dressed, in any 
 h«use before .they went to Syracuse ? 
 Oh, yes. 
 
 Do you remember where it was? If 
 I do not mistake, it was in the Villa 
 Villani. 
 
 What part of his dress had he on? 
 That morning gown, with stockings 
 and drawers (cangianli). 
 
 Where did the Princess go to front 
 Syracuse? To Catania. 
 
 Can yon describe the relative situa- 
 tion of the bed-roonas of the Princess 
 and Bergami at Catania ? were they 
 near each other, or distant? They 
 were separated by a yard, or court, 
 smaller than this house. 
 
 Was there any other separation be- 
 tween them but this court? Nothing 
 else. 
 
 Could any other person, after they 
 were in bed, get into that court ? No ; 
 because the door was locked. 
 
 Do you remember whether Bergami 
 was taken ill at Catania ? He was. 
 
 Was it necessary that his bed should 
 be warmed ? Yes. 
 
 Did you warm the bed yourself? 
 Yes. 
 
 Did yon see the Princess on tha{ oc- 
 casion? Yes. 
 
so 
 
 TRIAL 01-' THE QUEEVJ 
 
 Was she in the room before you went 
 there, or did she come in aflervvards ? 
 1 was in tlie room when slie came. 
 
 How was IJerg.inji sitting? Upon a 
 bench, or sort of stool, while I was 
 making the bed. 
 
 Were any directions i^iven by the 
 Princfcsss as to tlie mode of warming 
 the bed ? Yes. 
 
 Wliat did she say ? .Slie told me to 
 warm the bed, and maka it clean and 
 nice. 
 
 Did Bergami take any medicine? 
 Yes. 
 
 Who mixed it for him? I do not 
 reifnember. 
 
 How loii!^ did tiic Princess remain 
 iuthe room? While the bed was warm- 
 ing- 
 While Bergjimi was sitting at the 
 side of the bed, in the maniier de- 
 scribed, was he entirely dressed, or 
 partly undressed? Only dressed in 
 part. 
 
 What had he on, and what off? He 
 had on the morning gown ; but I do 
 not remember what else. 
 
 How long did the Princess remain 
 at Catania? About a month and a 
 half. 
 
 To what place did she next go ? To 
 Augusta. 
 By land or sea ? By sea. 
 Describe the situarion of the bed- 
 rooms. — There was a small yard or 
 court into which both the rooms led, 
 and you passed through this court from 
 one room to the other. 
 
 After they were in bed, could any 
 person get into that court? Not until 
 they got up in the morning. 
 
 At Augusta did they embark in any 
 vessel? Yes, on board a polacre. 
 
 Was that an Italian vessel ? A Nea- 
 politan polacre, as they said. 
 
 Where did you first go to in it ? To 
 Tunis. 
 
 Did Bergami receive any title at 
 Catania or Augusta^ At Catania. 
 
 Was he ever called his Excellency? 
 I remember it. 
 Was that at Catania ? Yes. 
 Did he wear any decoration ? That 
 of the order of Knighthood of Malta. 
 
 While in Sicily did he receive any 
 other title? Was he caUcd Baron? 
 I remember he was called Baron Fran- 
 ciud. 
 
 Was the cabin of the Princess n<l. 
 joining that cabin ? It was near it. 
 
 Bid any other person sleep in the 
 room where they dined ? I do not re- 
 member. 
 
 When thePrincessarrived at Tunis, 
 where did she reside ? At the English 
 Consul's. 
 
 Bid she reside there during the whole 
 time she was at Tunis ? She changed 
 her lodgiuiT. 
 
 Where did she go afterwards? To 
 the palace of the Bey. 
 
 Do you remember the relative situa- 
 tion of the bed-rooms there? were they 
 near each other ? No : at a little dis- 
 tance. 
 
 What separated them ? First, there 
 was a little room, a small corridor; 
 and then a large room in which nobody 
 slept, and that large room led into the 
 bedroom of the Princess. 
 
 Did any body sleep in the small in- 
 termediate room? It was only used as 
 a room of passage. 
 
 Did the rest of the suite sleep in that 
 part of the building ? All in another 
 part. 
 
 The Princess afterwards went from 
 Tunis to Constantinople, and from 
 thence to Scala Nuova? Yes. 
 
 Where did slie lodge at Scala Nuova? 
 
 They did not stop there, but went to 
 
 the Grotto of the Seven Sleeping Men. 
 
 At what distance ? Half a day's 
 
 journey. 
 
 Do you remember the place where 
 there was a Turkish coffee-house? 
 Yes, a CafFe Turque. 
 
 Where was that ? Before you arrive 
 at the Grotto of the Seven Sfeepers. 
 
 Did the suite of the Princess take 
 up their residence at that Gaffe ? Dur- 
 ing the night. 
 
 Do you remember a vestibule of a 
 small church near that spot, surround- 
 ed by a wall ? I remember that too 
 j well. 
 
 Where did the Princess sleep on the 
 j first night on arriving at that place ? 
 I Under a tent, made of the boughs of 
 ' trees. 
 
 ' Do you remember being sent for to 
 that vestibule enclosed by a wall ? 
 Yes. 
 
 Was the Princess there at that time? 
 Yes. 
 And Bergami also? He was present 
 
 Did he receive .that title first in Si- also, 
 citv ? Yes. Was no other person present ? No 
 
 Where did Bergami sleep on board : one else. 
 the polacre? In the cabin where they j Was the vestibule surrounded by 
 
 dined. 
 
 wall ? It was sarrounded by walls- 
 
EVIDENCE OF THEODORE MAJOCIII. 
 
 31 
 
 Was the Princess's travelling bed 
 earned thither ? I carried it myself. 
 
 Hy whose dinection r Both Berijanii 
 and the Princess. 
 
 Did Bergami and the Princess re- 
 main there ? Yes. 
 
 Had you prepared the dinner in any 
 other place ? I had carried it to the 
 coffee-house, and the Princess and 
 Bergami ordered me to can-y the din- 
 ner to tlie vestibule surrounded by a 
 wall. 
 
 Did they dine thereby themselves? 
 Alone. 
 
 Where was the Princegs sitting i* On 
 a bed. 
 
 Where was Bergami sitting? On 
 the ground, at the t'eet of her Royal 
 Highness. 
 
 Did you wait upon her ? Yes. 
 
 After dinner did they remain there ? 
 Yes. 
 
 Was any other person with them r 
 None. 
 
 Did the bed remain there ? Yes. 
 
 How long diJ they remain together 
 in thrt place P An hour, or an hour 
 and a half. ' 
 
 Where did they go to from Ephesns? 
 To Scala Nuova. 
 
 Did they then embark on board the 
 polacre ? Yes. 
 
 Where did they land ? At St. Jean 
 d'Acre. 
 
 Do you remember going from thence 
 to Aun ? Yes. 
 
 Did all persons in the suite of the 
 Princftss remain in the day time in 
 tents ? Yes. 
 
 Were you in the habit of travelling 
 by day or by night ? By night. 
 
 And slept In the day timei Yes. 
 
 In the tents, in the manner descri- 
 bed ? Yes. 
 
 Do you remember the tent in which 
 the Piincess slept ? I do. 
 
 Was that among the other tents, or 
 at a distance from thein ? — At a dis- 
 tance of three or four paces; it might 
 be tive or six paces. 
 
 Wag there a bed in the tent of the 
 Princess ? — Yes. 
 
 Was that the ordinary travelling 
 bed of the Princess ?— There was a 
 little bed and a sofa ; -a Turkish sofa. 
 
 Did the tunt of the Princess consist 
 of one circle or of two? — It had double 
 walls; there were two tents, one within 
 another. 
 
 Was the bed or sofa placed within 
 the inner tent,' — Both in the jnner 
 tept, 
 
 Was that inner tent of a circular 
 form? Both were circular. 
 
 Wliat distance was there between 
 the inner and the outer circle? Both 
 the length of my two anns. 
 
 Did you see the Princess in the in- 
 terior tent where the bed and sofa 
 were, and any body with her? Ber- 
 gami and sometimes the iittle child. 
 
 Were Bergami and the Princess 
 there during the time that was allotted 
 for sleep? Yes, during the lime of 
 rest 
 
 Were both the inner and the outer 
 tents closed ?— The inner tent was shut 
 up by them, and the outer might be 
 closed or left open, as they chose. 
 
 Whom do you mean by them^ Ber- 
 gami and the PrinccAS. 
 
 Do you remember going from Aun 
 to Jerusalem? — Yes. 
 
 Did you stop between Aun and Je- 
 rusalem? — ^Yes. 
 
 Did you encamp again in the same 
 manner as before ? — They raised the 
 tents in the same way. 
 
 Did the^Princess and Bergami again 
 sleep in the same tent?— Yes. 
 
 How many days were spent in this 
 mod© of travelling ? — Two. 
 
 After the return from Jerusalem 
 where did the Princess again embark? 
 At Jaffa. 
 
 On board the same vessel ? — ^The 
 same. « 
 
 On the first voyage to Jaffa had the 
 Princess slept in the cabin ? — Yes. 
 
 Do you remember, on her embarking 
 at Jaffa on the voyage home, any tent 
 being raised on the deck ? — I do. 
 
 What beds were placed in it .' — A 
 sofa. 
 
 Any bed besides the sofa? — A tra- 
 velling bed. 
 
 Did the Princess sleep in that tent 
 generally on the voyage from Jaffa 
 home ? — She slept always in it during 
 the whole journey. 
 
 Did any body else sleep in the same 
 tent? — Bergami. 
 
 On the deck? — On the deck. 
 
 Did that take place every night? — 
 Every evening. 
 
 Were the sides of the tent drawn 
 down so as to shut them in entirely? — 
 When they went to sleep the whole 
 was enclosed. 
 
 Did they use a lanthorn or lamp for 
 the purpose of going to bed ? — Yes. 
 
 Afier they were undressed, and pre- 
 pared to go to bed, what was done with 
 thelight? Sometimes Bergami told him 
 
S2 
 
 TAIAL OF THE ^UIjiEN. 
 
 to take away the lamp when he nwde 
 the bed, and sometimes he came and 
 put the lamp out with his hand between 
 the deck and the tent. 
 
 Were the beds regHlaily prepared 
 every night? — Every night. 
 
 Do you remember wliether the 
 Princess bathed on board the vessel r 
 — I remember it. 
 
 Where was the bath prepared ? — In 
 the cabin. 
 
 Who assisted her at the bath ? — The 
 ' first time I carried the water into the 
 bath, and then Bergami came down, 
 and put liis hand into it to try the tem- 
 perature : then he went up stairs and 
 handed the Princess down, after which 
 the door was shut, and Rergund and 
 the Princess remained alone in the 
 cabin. 
 
 Did the bathing take place more than 
 once ? — More than once, as well as I 
 can recollect. 
 
 Do you remember at any time, when 
 Bergami and the Princess were below 
 in the cabin with the bath, being called 
 upon to supply additional water? — I 
 do, two pails j oueofi^ot, aaid the other 
 of cold water. 
 
 Who took ti»« water in? — I went 
 ' Vith the water to the door of the cabin, 
 and Bergami ca^rie half-way out of the 
 door, and, taking the water, went in. 
 
 Do you kpow whettier, when you 
 took the w^ter, the Princess was actu- 
 ally in the bath or not ? — I cannot 
 know that. 
 
 Where was the cabin which witness 
 slept in situated witii reference to the 
 tent on c^cck ? under it, or how ? — ^I 
 slept ill the dining-room, on the sofa, 
 immediately under the tent. 
 
 Did you ever upon any occasion, 
 ■when the Princess and Bergami were 
 in the tent, hear any noise or motion 
 over you ? — Yes ; I heard a noise. 
 
 Where did you land?— At Capitan. 
 
 Where did they go to from thence ? 
 — I do not knmv, because 1 did not 
 follow them. 
 
 Who went on shore at Capitan ? — 
 The Princess, the sister of Bergami 
 (Countess Oldi,) the Turk, the Moor, 
 and a man named Cameron. 
 
 What were the Turk and the Moor 
 called ?T-The Moor was called Selim, 
 and the Turk Soliman. 
 
 Was there any body of the name of 
 Mahomet ? — Majomct. 
 
 Where did he embark on board the 
 vessel ? — At Jaffa. 
 Did Bergami go ojj shore atXerra- 
 
 Before the Princess landed ? — Yeir. I 
 For what purpose r — To get leavp, 
 from the Pope not to make quarac* 
 tine. 
 
 Do you remarftber the Princess apd 
 Bergami taking leave of each other at 
 the time he lauded ? — Yes, I remember 
 it too well. 
 
 Tell us what passed ?— I saw him kis» 
 her Royal Highness. 
 
 Wbere were they ? — ^La the cabin. 
 Where did you ajiain join the. 
 Princess ? — At Villa d'Este. 
 
 How long did the Princess and Ber- 
 gami remain at Villa d'Este? — About 
 a month after I joined them [The 
 witness added, that, as he was obliged 
 to perform quarantine at Genoa, he did 
 not join them for 37 days.] 
 
 After you arrived there, did tlie 
 Princess and Bergami go to a place 
 called the Barona? — Yes. 
 
 How soon after you reached Villa 
 
 d'Este did they take that journey?^^. 
 
 Abo«t a month. , 
 
 Do you know the place called the 
 
 Villa Bergami? — Yes. 
 
 To whom doth it belong ?— To Ber- 
 gami now ; be has bought it. 
 
 Are Villa Bergami and the Barona 
 the same place ? — 'It is the same place ; 
 it was called the Barona, 
 
 Do you kno-w when Bergarai first 
 became possessed of this place ? About 
 the time whea t^y were in the Villa 
 Villani. 
 
 Is this Villa Bergajni a considerable 
 estate with land abou^it? — Yes, there 
 is laud; it is a species of farm-house, 
 where they make cheese. 
 
 How long did the Princess and Ber>. 
 ganii remain there? — About 6 weeks, 
 when afterwards they took a journey 
 to Bavaria. 
 
 Was it during the carnival ?— Yes. 
 Do you recollect the relative j(itua- 
 tions of their bed-rooms at Yilla Ber- 
 gami ? were they near to each other ? 
 They both opened on the same land^ ^ 
 ing-place. 
 
 By cro.s.sing that landing-place, was 
 there a free communication from one 
 room to another ? — ^The landing-place 
 was about a yard in length. 
 
 Was it separated from the rest of 
 the house? — From all the rest. 
 
 Dp you remember, while the Prin?. 
 cess was at the ^illa Bergami, any 
 dances or balls being given? — ^I do. 
 
 Did that occur frequently ? — No ; 
 twice. 
 
 How far was it from Milan? Twa 
 miles. 
 
BVIDENeE OF lllEODORE MAJOCHI. 
 
 What description of persons attend- 
 ed »t those biill? ? Country people. 
 
 Did any of the nobility of Milan 
 visit there? Not that I remember. 
 
 What do you mean by " not that yon 
 remember?" — At one time Bellegarde 
 paid his respects to the Princess, and 
 after he was gone the Governor Saurao 
 came. 
 
 Did yon accompany the Princess in 
 her journey to Bavaria ? — Yes. 
 
 Do yon remember how the apart- 
 ments of the Princess and Bergami 
 were arranged at the different inns ?— 
 In Bavaria I remember. 
 
 At what place?— At the Golden 
 Stag, at Munich. 
 
 How were the bed-rooms arranged ? 
 ■ — The dining-room separated the bed- 
 room of her Royal Highness from that 
 ofBergaroi. 
 
 In the conrseof that journey, or any 
 other, were the bed-rooms arranged by 
 the master of the inn afterwards chang- 
 ed by erder of the Princess on her ar- 
 rival ? — Yes. 
 
 Did that happen more than once, 
 and at what places ? — It happened in 
 Bavaria, at the Golden Stag. 
 
 By whose order was the change 
 made? — Her Royal Highness's and 
 BergamiV. 
 
 Was her Royal Highnes present at 
 the time ? — She was ])reseiit. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL had 
 put the cjuestion whether the witness 
 remembered being at Carlsruhe, when 
 he was interrupted by 
 
 Marquis CAMDEr^, who reminded 
 the house that it was now considerably 
 past the hour fixes! for closing tUiS bu- 
 siness for the day — 1 o'clock. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL asked if 
 the cxamhiation in chief were nearly 
 closed. 
 
 Earl GREY thought that, rther 
 than sit for the whole year, the house 
 might sit for a quarter of an hour, or 
 even an hour longer. 
 
 In answer to a question from the 
 Lord-Chancellor, the Solicitor-General 
 replied, that he did not think he could 
 couclnde the examination in chief of 
 this witness in the time stated by the 
 noble loitl. ^ 
 
 Some conversation ensned npon this 
 point, and Lord DARN LEY suggest- 
 ed that the hour in future for closing 
 should be five instead of four. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE was in favour of 
 foiir o'clock, and I^ord GKLNVILLE 
 wished that, whatever hour was named, 
 
 5 
 
 it should be afdlvered 
 of despatch and reguU 
 
 Lord ERSKINE ri 
 house adjourn at foni 
 the question being put fro, 
 sack, we understood the 
 cellor to dcdde it in the affir 
 
 Adjourned at five o'clock. 
 
 Her Majesty did not re-en 
 house in the course of the day. 
 
 TUESDAY, August 22. 
 
 The house met at the usual 1 
 After prayers were read, and the na;. 
 of their lordships called over, thw 
 counsel w^ere introduced to the bar. 
 
 THEODORE MAJOCHI was then 
 called in, and his e:!^amination resumed 
 by the Solicitor-General. 
 
 You said yesterday, that yon at- 
 tended the Princess to Bavaria? — Yes.- 
 
 Did you also go with her to Carls- 
 rube ? — Yes. 
 
 Did you also go with her on her 
 jOurney to Nuremberg, Vienna, and 
 Trieste? — ^Yes, I went. 
 
 Without asking a particular descrip- 
 tion as to the arrangements of the 
 rooms of the Princess and Bergami, I 
 wish to know in general whether, to 
 th'e best of the witness's recollection, 
 they were, on this jowrney, contiguous, 
 and had a direct communication with 
 each other, or whether they were dis- 
 tant? — They were more near than 
 apart. 
 
 Here some doubt was expressed re- 
 specting the answer of tlie witness. 
 The interpreter observed, that he had 
 said " Meglio vicino che lontano." 
 The words might have a double mean- 
 ing. They nnght mean very near, or 
 comparatively near. Their lordships 
 might take it as they liked. (A laugh.) 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM thought that this 
 instruction should be given to the in- 
 terpreter, that when words had a dou- 
 ble meaning, he should translate them 
 literally, and leave it to the house to 
 judge of their import. 
 
 The question was repeated several 
 times, and the result, as given by the 
 inter))reter, was — '* rather more near 
 than distant — more near than npart." 
 
 Had the apartments of the Princess 
 and Bergami in general a communica- 
 tion with each other ? — Yes, 
 
 Were they in general separate from 
 the rooms of the rest of the uite? — 
 They were. « 
 
 Who in general selected the apart- 
 ment« for the Princess and Bergami ? 
 
TRIAL OF THE QtJEEN. 
 
 e the distribation of 
 aoth her Royal High- 
 ni. 
 
 , dur'iDg thU journey, 
 
 same carriage with the 
 
 Ves. 
 
 also in the journey to Ba- 
 
 es. 
 
 ^ ou say that they travelled in 
 
 to Bavaria, do you mean in 
 
 mey through Germany? — I 
 
 f it your business to procure a 
 ^. fi^, and to put things into it ? — 
 
 Jo you know in what part of the 
 carriage Bergami sat? — I do not re- 
 member. 
 
 ^o you remember finding any bottle 
 intiie carriage ? — I did find a bottle. 
 
 Was that bottle usually placed in the 
 carriage when the Princess and Ber- 
 gami travelled together ? — It was. 
 
 Will you explain the appearance of 
 this bottle at its mouth ? — It was about 
 three or four inches wide by the dia- 
 meter. 
 
 Do you know from what was found 
 in tht bottle, to what purpose was it 
 used in the carriage ? 
 
 Did you attend on the Princess to 
 the Convent of Benedictines at St. 
 Alassio? — ^Yes. 
 
 Do you remember seeing her at 
 breakfast there? — ^Yes, 
 
 Did she breakfast alone, or with Ber- 
 
 gami ? — With Bergami. 
 
 Do you remember any thing being 
 tiien done by Bergami to the Princess ? 
 — I do not remember. 
 
 At what place did you quit'the ser- 
 vice of the Princess ? — At Pesaro. 
 
 How long were you in her service ? 
 — Nearly three years. 
 
 Where did you go to when you left 
 her at Pesaro ? — To Milan. 
 
 lato what service did you then en- 
 ter ? — Into the service of the Marquis 
 .Jl^va di Scalpa. 
 
 How long did you remain in Italy 
 after you4eft Pesaro? — I cannot tell. 
 
 I do Bot ask you to say to a certainty, 
 . but as nearly as you can. — I caunot 
 tell. 
 
 Was it three or four months ? — I do 
 not remember. 
 
 Do you remember going with the 
 Princess to Pavia ? — Yes. 
 
 At what iun did you stop ?— I do not 
 remember the name of the iun, but it 
 wtw tlie one on the right hand as you 
 enter tUe town. 
 
 Do you remember while at Naples 
 the circumstance of Bergami being out 
 on horseback one day, and the Prin- 
 cess asking for him ? I remember it 
 too well — (after a pause the interpre- 
 ter added)-— or very well. 
 
 The witness used the word " troppo ;' 
 and the answer having excited some 
 observation within the bar, the inter- 
 preter observed that it might be taken 
 as *' too well," or " very well." The 
 literal meaning was " too much ;" but 
 that interpretation had been ob jec ed 
 to yesterday ; he considered the wit- 
 ness to mean verv well. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.— I make no ob- 
 jection to the interpretation. 
 
 During the absence of Bergami on 
 borsebaek, did the Princess ask for 
 him ?— She did. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL wish- 
 ed here to remind their lordships, that 
 the witness had stated that he had been 
 with the Queen before at Naples for 
 about a month, in tlie year 1814. 
 
 Did thcwitnesson Bergami's retnrn, 
 communicate to him that the Princess 
 wanted him.'' — I did. 
 
 Was she at that time in her bed- 
 room ? — I do not know, because I was 
 below in the court. 
 
 In consequence of the communica- 
 tion made by the witness, did Bergami 
 goto the Princess in her bed room ? — 
 Mr, BROUGHAM objected to this 
 mode of examination. The witness 
 had not said where the Qneen was, and 
 he put a question which assumed that 
 she was in her bed-room. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR con- 
 sidered the question irregul ir. Tlic 
 witness ought to be asked, To what 
 place did Berirflmi co? 
 
 The SOLICITOR - GENERAL.— 
 Let him then be asked where Bergami 
 went to. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM interrupted the 
 witness in the answer he was giving, 
 by observing that he was going on to 
 relate a conversation which had passed 
 between himself and Bergami. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERALsttb- 
 mitted that the conversation would be 
 evidence if it related to an act done by 
 her Majesty. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE made some obser- 
 vations, which were not distinctly 
 heard. We understood him to say 
 that the conversation would not be 
 good evidence if held in the absence 
 of herMajestv. 
 The LORD- CHANCELLOR (a« 
 
EVIDENCE OF THEODORE MAJOCIH. 
 
 S5 
 
 ■\ve understood) said that a conversa- 
 tiou ill the absence of a Ikird person 
 niipht be evi»lence, it" connected with 
 «ome act of that person. 
 
 The SOLTCl TOK-GENERAL said 
 that of the nature of this conversation 
 he was no way apprized ; but he would 
 ask the witness where Bergarai went 
 after he was informed that the Prin- 
 ce's wanted bim? — Into his own room. 
 
 What did he do on going into it? — 
 He shut np the door. 
 
 Do you mean that he merely closed 
 the door, or that he fastened or locked 
 it ? — He locked it. 
 
 Did he remain there long ? — About 
 $hree quarters of an hour, ©r an hour. 
 
 Did you see the Princess below dur- 
 ing this time? — I did not. 
 
 Did the new arrangement of the 
 bed-rooms which was made at Villa 
 d'Estc tuke place during the journey 
 in Greece? — Yes ; it happened then. 
 
 Do you knew what was the relative 
 •ituation of the rooms after tho Prin- 
 cess returned from Greece, and the 
 change had taken place ? — I do. 
 
 Do you recollect whether the rooms 
 of Bergami and th« Princess were near 
 and had a direct communication with 
 each other ? — I do recollect they were. 
 
 Were the apartments of the rest of 
 the household at a distance? — They 
 ■were more apart. 
 
 Do you recollect whether, on the 
 door of Bergarai's room being closed, 
 all communication was interrupted be- 
 tween that part of the house where the 
 TCht of the Princess's suite slept and 
 the apartments of Bergami and the 
 Princess ? — Yes, when his door was 
 locked nobody else could go into the 
 Princess's apartment. 
 
 Do you recollect an alteration hav- 
 ing b^^n formed in the wall of the 
 apartment .^ — I do not remember. 
 
 Was there a theatre at Villa d'Este ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 Did the Princess appear on that 
 theatre?— Yes. 
 
 Did she act in the same piece with 
 Bergami ?— I have seen Bergami and 
 the Piincess there together, but I ne- 
 ver remained during the whole per- 
 Corraance. 
 
 Was the Princess while she lived at 
 Villa d'Este usually visited by persons 
 of distinction in that neighbourhood ? 
 — I do not remember. 
 
 Do you remember a person of the 
 name of Majoretto, or Mahomet, being 
 in the service of the Priaccss ?— Yts. 
 
 What countryman was he ?— He was 
 from Jaffa. 
 
 Did he come on board the Princess's 
 vesiel at Jaffa ? — Yes. 
 
 Did he live at Villa d'Estc ?—Y"eg. 
 
 Tell as any exhibition he was in the 
 habit of making, always observing not 
 to mention any except tho&« at which 
 the Princes* was present. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM thought his learn- 
 ed friend ought to pnt his question in 
 a more specific form. It would be ne- 
 cessary, ia the first place, to bring the 
 Queen and this men together. 
 
 The SOLICITOR GENERAL 
 would endeavour to obviate the ob- 
 jection. Do yeu remember any time, 
 when the Princess was present, at 
 which Mahomet made any exhibition ? 
 — Yes, he performed a Giuoco. 
 
 It was here asked what was meant 
 by a Giuoco, and the interpreter stated, 
 that it was a generic term, which com- 
 prehended all kinds of plays, games, 
 and tricks. 
 
 What tricks was he in the habit of 
 playing ? 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM observed that 
 they had nothing to do with the habits 
 of Mahomet. It was only \«hat was 
 done when the Princess was present 
 that could be made the subject of in- 
 quiry. He must, therefore, object to 
 the question. 
 
 The SOLICITOR -GENERAL.— 
 Will the w itnes3 describe the nature of 
 the Giuoco to which he has alluded, at 
 which the Princess was present? 
 
 Here the witness moved his body up 
 and down with a sort of dancing motion, 
 occasionally extending his arms an^ 
 gCapping his fingers, as if using casta- 
 nets in a fandango, and exclaiming 
 " vima dima." or some such words. 
 
 The interpreter being asked what 
 this was, said it was a species of dance 
 very commonly performed in the East, 
 and 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM interrupted the 
 interpreter, observing that his account 
 was unnecessary. Could he explain- the 
 words "vima dima ?" — The interpreter 
 could not. 
 
 The SOLICITOR -GENERAL.-1 
 Was any thing done by Mahomet with 
 any part of his dress? — Yes, with his 
 great brachese^ or pantaloons. 
 
 Did he make any use of his linen, or 
 of his pantah)ons ? — Yes. 
 
 What use did he make of them ?— 
 Here the witness made several mov«« 
 Qients. 
 
TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 Did he, cither before or during the 
 time of these motions, make any ar- 
 rangement of hi8 pantaloons, or do any 
 thing with his linen ? — I do not know. 
 
 I will ask you then to describe the 
 Giuoco from beginning to end. 
 
 Here the witness pulled up his 
 trowsers, and repeated his imitation of 
 the Giuoco of Mahomet as before. 
 
 The interpreter said their lordships 
 saw the motion the witness made, and 
 could judge of it as well as he. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said the motion 
 the matt was makiag might be de- 
 scribed in one short word — acourtsey. 
 Some peers called out — No ! no ! 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL wisli- 
 ed the witness to describe exactly the 
 manner in which the trowsers of Ma- 
 homet were prepared for this trick : 
 lie therefore asked, did he do any 
 thing to his trowsers with his hands 
 either before he began or when going 
 on with the Giuoco ? — I did not see 
 him do any thing. 
 
 Was the position of his trowsers the 
 same as usual ? — Always. 
 
 Do you remember this Giuoco being 
 performed more than once in the pre- 
 sence of the Princess ? — Yes, more than 
 once. 
 
 Was Bergami present as well as the 
 Princess ? — He was. 
 
 After you went to Milan, and en- 
 tered into the service of the Marquis, 
 where did you go ? — To Germany. 
 
 When at the Villa d'Este did you see 
 the Princess and Bergami alone on the 
 Lake of Como ? — Yes. 
 
 The witness has said, that hp has 
 seen the Princess and Bergami toge- 
 ther, and unaccompanied, on the Lake 
 of Como. Has he often seen them so ? 
 — Yes, many times. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL here 
 said — My lords, that is all the ques- 
 tions I have at the present moment to 
 ask this witness. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.— I trust, my 
 lords, I shall now be permitted, ac- 
 cording to the usual course, to enter 
 upon the cross-examination of this wit- 
 ness. I am ready to do so, 
 
 (Cries irom the peers of" Go on." 
 
 CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. 
 BROUGHAM. 
 
 When the learned gentleman was 
 about to commence^ the Marchese Ni- 
 colas Spinetto was going to retire, and 
 make way for the second interpreter, 
 
 Bcnedh to Cohen; but Mr. Brougham 
 said there was no necessity whatever; 
 he was quite satisfied with the inter- 
 pretation of the Marchese, who accord- 
 ingly continued to interpret, but re- 
 moved to the left of the witness, so a« 
 that the latter should stand exactly- 
 next to the learned counsel. 
 
 You have told us you left General 
 Pino's service, was it not on account 
 of killing a horse ? — No. 
 
 You never killed a horse then at all? 
 — Never. 
 
 You never told any one you had ? — 
 Never. 
 
 Whil« Mr. BROUGHAM was in 
 the act of putting this question, some 
 signification, by whisper or gesture, 
 was made by some of their lordships, 
 which seemed to indicate disapproba- 
 tion. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM appealed to their 
 lordships, to know whether he had 
 fallen'into any irregularity. (Cries of 
 '* No,no.") Their lordships must be 
 aware that any symptoms of admonition 
 must have great weight with him, and 
 were certainly calculated to withdraw 
 his attention from the serious duty hs 
 had to perform. (Cries of" Go on.") 
 
 What wages had you in General 
 Pino's service? — 25 pence per day. 
 
 Did you go away, not finding those 
 wages enough? — I left the service of 
 the General during the blockade of 
 Mantua. 
 
 Ask him whether, at the 2d table of 
 the Princess's household, Sir W. Gell's 
 servant did not sit also ? — What servant 
 of the Chevalier? 
 
 An English servant? — I don't re- 
 member. 
 
 Did Mr. Craven, another English 
 gentleman? — I do not remember. 
 
 Had either of these English gentle- 
 men English servants at all with them? 
 — Yes, they had. 
 
 Were they in or out of livery ? — • 
 During every day they did not wear 
 liveries ; but at dinner sometimes they 
 wore vmiforms. 
 
 The interpieter here observed that 
 uniform was the real translation of 
 what he (the witness) said ; but live^-y 
 was meant by it also. 
 
 Was it the duty of the ordinary livery- 
 servants of the household to wait upon 
 her Royal Highness? — Yes, at table. 
 
 Did they at breakfast? — No. 
 
 Did the upper servants, including 
 the couriers, do so as a part of their 
 doty r— Yes j they did. 
 
CROSS EXAMINATION OF THEODORE MAJOCHI. 
 
 37 
 
 Did ke know Jeronyraius? — Yes, veiy 
 well. 
 
 Did he know Cameron? — Ycr, they 
 tUoy were couriers; they wore the li- 
 veries of such at least. * 
 
 lu the Queen's house at Naples 
 where did vVilliam Austin sleep .^ — I 
 don't remember. 
 
 Will you swear he did not sleep in 
 the next room to her Royal Highness? 
 — I cannot swear ? — I cannot leuiem- 
 bcr, (non posso ricordormi ) 
 
 Where did Dr. Holland, her Royal 
 Highness's physician, sleep?— I don't 
 remember. 
 
 Will you swear there was no other 
 passage through which her Royal 
 Highness could go to Berganii's apart- 
 ment, when he was ill, except that in 
 which you slept ? 
 
 [The witness not seeming to com- 
 prehend the question, it was repeated 
 to hira.] 
 
 I have seen that passag I spoke of, 
 but other passages I have not seen. 
 
 Will you swear that was the only 
 only one? — There was a great saloon, 
 after which her Royal Highness's apart- 
 ment, and then came a cabinet. 
 
 Will you swear there was no other 
 passage? — I cannot swear, 1 have sceji 
 BO other passage than this. 
 ' Will you swear the only passage to 
 Bergami's room was through the cabi- 
 net ? — [ cannot swear that there is nu 
 other passage. 
 
 You will not take upon you tQf-;§wear 
 then, that th6re might not haVfe b^en 
 jftiother passage? — There mii;lit have 
 been another passage. I cannot say: 
 I speak of one passage; I have only 
 seen that one, that I remember. 
 
 LORD LONGFORD. -Will yon 
 swear that there was no other way in 
 which a person wishing to go from the 
 Princess's room to Bergami's room 
 could go, except by passing through 
 the cabinet? — There was, I thjnk, ano- 
 ther passage going to the room of Ber- 
 gami. 
 
 MR. BROUGHAM.— Without pass- 
 ing through the room in which you 
 ilept?— Yes, Sir. 
 
 Where did JeronimuH sleep ? — I don't 
 remember. 
 
 Where did Cameron sleep? — I don't 
 l-emember. 
 
 I see you don't remember. I take it 
 then for granted you don't remember 
 where Mr. Craven's servants slept ?— 7I 
 don't remember. 
 
 [The con^t^nt repetition of the wit- 
 
 ness's answer — " Qucsto non mi ricor- 
 do," — (I don't remember,) occasioned 
 some laughter.] 
 
 Did you know the female servant, 
 Dumont? — Yes. 
 
 Where did she sleep ? — I don't know. 
 
 Were there olher female attendants? 
 — Yes. 
 
 Where did they sleep? — I don't 
 know. 
 
 You recollect wlven Bergami was ill. 
 —Yes. 
 
 Was it not a very severe accident 
 which Bergami met from a kick of a 
 horse? — Yes. 
 
 He was much hurt? — Yes, It was 
 so strong, he could not ride or go. 
 
 Did this accident confine him to his 
 room? — I can't say, not having know- 
 ledge of the illncs?. 
 
 Were you not taken into the service 
 of the Princess to attend Bergami in 
 that illness?— Yes, Bergami told me to 
 attend hiQi. 
 
 You have said he could not ridej 
 could he walk? — I don't know. 
 
 Did he go out walkinji?— I don't 
 know whether he could walk. 
 
 Did you see him walk out, as^he us«- 
 ally did before his accident, from hut 
 room to the streets ? — I cant tell. 
 
 Will you swear that during his ill- 
 ness he ever walked out once ? — I 
 don t remember to have seen him. 
 
 Did you ever go into his room during 
 the time of his illness ? — I did; I help- 
 ed upon him — that is, waited. 
 
 l>id you often so attend upon him .^ 
 — Yes . 
 
 Did you at any time of that attend- 
 ance, tlien,see him waik ? — At lea^t I 
 cannot say ; I don't recollect. 
 
 Was he attended by any medical 
 man? — -I don't remember. 
 
 Did you not see her Royal Higimcsg 
 go into the room of Jeronimus when 
 he met with an accident?— I don't 
 remember. 
 
 Have you not seen her go into Sip 
 William Gell's room when he, too, was 
 coiilined by illness? — I don't remember. 
 
 Was it not her constant practice to 
 go into the apar tmen t of any of her suit« 
 who happened to be ill, in order to see 
 after their health and their treatment? 
 — I don't remember-— (non mi recor Jo.) 
 
 You were never ill yourself at Na- 
 ples ? — No ; I don't recollect, 
 
 I'he Princess never entered your 
 apartment while you were ill? — No, 
 
 Did the Princess make anv diff«*.r- 
 
38 
 
 rniAL OF THE QVEEJf, 
 
 «8t of her servants, daring any illness 
 of any of tliemt' 
 
 The Solicitor-Gf.neral objected to 
 this mode of pursnine; of cross-exami- 
 nation. It was assuming that some of 
 them were ill, of which there was not 
 pi oof. 
 
 Mr. Brougii AM. — Then I will pat the 
 question this way, for I mean to assume 
 nothing — Whether the witness observed 
 on the part of the i^rincess any differ- 
 ence in her treatment of either the high 
 or the low in her visits of the sick ? 
 
 The SoLiciTOR-GBNERAU'-Preciscly 
 the same objectionappliesto this mode 
 'of putting the question as to the other. 
 I object to an assumption of any thing. 
 Prove "it : ask him w Uether any of the 
 stSrvants were ill; whether Jeroniraus 
 •was, orany body body else ?' 
 
 Mr. Brougham.— Then I shall, to 
 save trouble, vary the question, though 
 J do not think I have been incorrect. 
 
 Were all the servants of her Majesty's 
 ;«Bitc always in perfect health, except 
 Bergami, during his illness from the 
 IsTck of the horse? — Questo non mi ri- 
 <!!brdo — ^I don't remember. (A laugh.) 
 
 -Was there any physician in attend- 
 iance at any time except upon Ber- 
 gami ?— I don't remember any other 
 except while Bcrgami's accident. 
 
 Will yon swear there was no physician 
 in attendance at any other time? — 
 iluesto non mi ricordo — I don't remem- 
 her. (A laugh.) 
 
 Ob wiiat bed did yon sleep in the 
 little cabinet while attending upon Ber- 
 gami.?' — ^On a mattress. 
 
 Had it any curtains ? — ^No. 
 
 When her Royal Highness went from 
 Naples to Rome in March, 1815, what 
 English persons were with her? — I 
 cannot say exactly. There was Dr. 
 Holland ; Jeronimus as far as I know. 
 
 Was not Lady Charlotte Lindsay 
 tkere ? — I don't know. 
 
 Was there no English lady with her 
 Royal Highness? — I remember to have 
 »een one English lady ; I forget the 
 .librae; the little thin one I remember. 
 
 Did not one of these English ladies 
 ga with her Royal Highness in the 
 jowniej'^ from Naples to Rome? — I 
 don't remember. 
 
 What lady did accompany berr — 
 There was a Madame Falconet. 
 
 Any body else? — Madame Falconet 
 ■vrns taken to be the wife of a banker 
 at Naples, and she had two daughters. 
 
 Was. she an English lady ? — I don't 
 
 Did she speak English ?— I donX 
 know. 
 
 Did she always speak English, or 
 what other language f — She always 
 spoke like French. 
 
 Did she take her two daughters with 
 her in the journey of the Princess from 
 Naples to Rome ? — Questo non ricordo, 
 (I don't remember.) 
 
 Did you ever see Madame Falconet's 
 two daughters in the Princess's house 
 with their mother? — I think, or I fan- 
 cy, I have not seen them. 
 
 Did you ever see them elsewhere? 
 — Yes, I think I saw them on the way 
 from Naples to Rome with the Prin- 
 cess. 
 
 Of what age were the daughters ?-^ 
 I don't know. 
 
 Were they young ladies, or young 
 children? — •! don't know. 
 
 [Here the interpreter, after putting 
 the question and repeating tlie answer, 
 observed, that the witness did not 
 seem to comprehend the qne;stion.] 
 
 The LORD - CHANCELLOR.— I 
 desire it to be known, that the witness 
 must not be interrupted while he » 
 giving an answer to a question. I saw 
 the counsel putting a fresh question 
 while he was answering the last. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM disclaimed any 
 wish to interrupt the witness. He was 
 always desirous to have his answer 
 complete. 
 
 The LORD - CHANCELLOR re- 
 plied, that he imputed no blame to 
 the counsel, for the witness at the time 
 had his back turned to bini, and of 
 course he (Mr. Brougham) could not 
 have seen whther the witness had 
 finished his sentence or not. 
 
 After a few words in explanation 
 between the SOLICITOR - GENE- 
 RAL and Mr. BROUGHAM, respect- 
 ing the form of putting questions, the 
 cross-exaniinaiion was resnmed. 
 
 The former question w*as then re- 
 peated. — Answer. Young ladies. 
 
 Did you see Lady Charlotte Lind- 
 say, or any other person besides Ma- 
 dame Falconet, when her Royal Hi^- 
 ncss left Naples ? — Non mi licordo. 
 
 Did you ever see more than one 
 English lady in her Royal Highness's 
 household at -one time? — Non mi 
 ricordo. 
 
 [The interpreter cxplained.that these 
 werds meant " I don't remember, or I 
 don't know ;" and that they answered 
 to the French phrase '' Je ne sai pas." 
 Mr. Brougham considered the correct 
 
CROSS r.XAMTKATION OF THEODOUE MAJOCUI. 
 
 ;9 
 
 translation 0/ the words to be of much 
 coii5eq«ence; and he dissented from 
 that which had been put upon them 
 by the Marchese ; upon which the Mar- 
 t;hf<je Spinetto (the interpreter) beg- 
 ged that their lordships would apply 
 to the interpreter for her Majesty, who 
 was behind him, and would correct him 
 if he was wrong. Their lordships 
 desired Mr. Cohen, accordingly, to 
 be asked, whicb was done by Mr. 
 Brouijham. 
 
 How do you translate the worda 
 ** N<*u mi ricordo ?" — I do uot recol- 
 lect." 
 
 How do you render '* I don't know?" 
 ' — " No so." 
 
 , Mr. BROUGHAM then appealed to 
 their lordships. It would be the most 
 childish tliinsj in the world in him were 
 he to talk of his knowledge of the Ita- 
 lian language; because their lordships 
 had appointed an interpreter, and they 
 were to take the witness's answer 
 throBgh him. But if it appeared that 
 tkey always translated " No* mi ricor- 
 do" " I don t recollect," it seemed to 
 hira that it ntight be allowable for a 
 person — even, who was only a Tra- 
 montane, like himself— to doubt whe- 
 thtr the same words could sometimes 
 mean " I don't recollect^" and at others 
 ** I don't know." 
 
 [The interpreter, with their lord- 
 slilps' leave, re-stated the question.] 
 
 Lord HAMPDEN desired the in- 
 terpreter to say how he would trans- 
 late "This I don't recollect.' —The 
 interpreter replied, " Non mi ricordo 
 questo." 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM s^id, that was 
 exactly his construction of the words. 
 Did the interpreter, by '* Non mi 
 ricordo," mean to say " I have no recol- 
 lection," or'«I have no knowledge?" 
 The interpreter answered, "I have 
 no *' recollectian ;' and that the word 
 ** qaesto," which was desired to be pre- 
 cisely stated, applied to the particular 
 circumstance spoken ef. 
 
 The cross-examination was then re- 
 turned by Mr. BROUGHAM. 
 
 You gave us an account yesterday 
 of yotvr knocking one night at Bergu- 
 mi.s door, at Genoa, so loud that he 
 mast have heard you.: and that you did 
 not receive any answer? — I did. 
 
 What sort of people were they who 
 were coming to the house that night, 
 that it nirtde you go and knock up the 
 Baron — the Baron Bergarai? — It was 
 when that attempt was made to rob the 
 liotise. 
 
 Do yow mean to say that robben 
 had broken in, or threatened to break 
 into the honse? — Robbers had come 
 into the house. 
 
 Was not the alarm civen, that it wa« 
 a part of your friend Ompteda's gaag? 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL sub- 
 mitted that this was an irregular q»jes- 
 tion, and liable to the same objectiuu. 
 which he had already made to a former 
 one. It was assuming that there was a. 
 person of the name of Omptedji, and 
 that he was a friend of the witnesses: 
 it was assuming, too, that this was » 
 gang of robbers. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.—Sothey xvere, 
 by the answer to the last questioa 
 which I put. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL.— 
 Of which gang you also assume, that 
 the friend of Mivjochl, the witness, w-as 
 a part. 
 
 Mr, BROUGHAM.— A part of the 
 gang ! He was their head ; their ring' 
 leader. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR, ad- 
 dressing the learned counsel, observed, 
 that he had said he would go by step«; 
 but here he was assuming the whole of 
 the facts, which it was not competent 
 for him to do. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM had not «o im- 
 derstood the matter ; but would wave 
 the question. 
 
 Counsel resumed. — Did not yrm 
 wake from your sleep on that occasion, 
 and go to the window ? — I opened the 
 window, and saw a tall person below 
 me. I went out ; I took a gun aii4 
 fired on this porison. I had seen thf« 
 person; these ptrsons — for there were 
 more than one— and thev flo<i. 
 
 Here Lord MANslT£J.D (fromfhe 
 gallery) moved that cow-ijs^el should 
 withdraw, which was-ordeiwd. 
 
 Lord MANSFIELD then aflked 
 whether Sir AVm. Gell was one of the 
 witnesses summoned; and being infornv- 
 ed that Sir Wm. was ordered to attend, 
 he demanded whether he was present. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR asked 
 if Sir M'm. Gell was present, in at- 
 tendance upon the house? 
 
 The Usher of the Black Rod hn^ 
 formed their lordships that he wa«. 
 
 Upon Lord MANSFIELD'S motioa 
 that he be called in. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR wa« 
 of opinion that their lordships might 
 hear within the house; but, if so, he 
 did not know if such a proceeding 
 should not be subject to a question^ 
 whether he might Uiei •alter bcexami- 
 
40 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 ned as a Mltnass upon the qnestibn. 
 (The Solicitor-GenerdLl was about to 
 spea*k, but the Loid-Chanoellor conti- 
 nued.)— Their lordships, as he under- 
 stood the inatter, had tiiouiiht it would 
 be most proper that the witnesses, up- 
 on both sides, who were not under 
 examination, should withdraw while 
 the examinations were ^oing on — with 
 the exception oiih- of those who were 
 employed upon professional business, 
 or who were attending, otherwise, up- 
 on account of a necessity to do so. 
 He apprehended that in the case of 
 any one not falling within that descrip- 
 tion of persons to whom he had just 
 alluded, it was entirely within their 
 lordships' discretion whether or no they 
 should admit him to be afterwards ex- 
 amined, if he had been so present. 
 But it was extremely fitting that coun- 
 sel should know what the understand- 
 ing of the house was upon this h^ad, 
 for fear they should lose the benefit of 
 evidence which might be most material 
 to Ihem. The question for their lord- 
 ships to consider must be, whether an 
 individual,, having been present in the 
 house at the examination of witnesses, 
 could afterwards, himself, be examined 
 fol- that purpose ? 
 
 Earl GREY understood that it was 
 t^e wish of the house that the other 
 witnesses, upon both sides, should re- 
 tire during the examination of a wit- 
 ness. If any one were now-present it 
 might be contrary to the understand- 
 ing of the house, and from eiror, but 
 it would be miich better that the house 
 should now lay down distinctly what it 
 would rule, in order that no w^ithesses 
 Blight hereafter be present except 
 tboRe who were necessarily so. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL concur- 
 red in the propriety of the course 
 recommended by the «oble earl ; he 
 only wished to know what he meant by 
 the words "necessarily present.** Did 
 he mean to say professionally? or did 
 he mean " necessarily," as for the pur- 
 poses of consnitation ; for he (Lord 
 Liverpoel) could easily conceive that 
 in the case of the Qireen it might be 
 necessary that some of the witnesses 
 ^oold attend in consequence of the 
 inftjrmation which they cowld give. 
 He submitted that counsel on either 
 side should have their option — that of 
 having the particular individual pre- 
 ^nt in the house, or of after examining 
 them. He agreed in the opinion of 
 the noble carl, bat wished to know 
 
 what he meant by being " neces«arily^ 
 present. 
 
 Lord GRENVILLE should recom- 
 mend ** that witnesses not yet exami- 
 ned be directed to retire,' and that 
 they shall not be present without the 
 leave of this house." All the witnesses 
 who might be retained upon both sides 
 ought not, he conceived, to be present. 
 If it were wished by counsel to have 
 the assistance of an officer who might 
 be a witness, for the purpose of con- 
 ducting the case, he ought not to be 
 present. That officer could not be 
 presumed to be present, or, if he were 
 present, he could not afterwards be 
 examined as a witness. 
 
 The LORD.CHA^CELLOR was 
 snre their lord'?liips would feel of what 
 material importance it was that the rule 
 should be laid doAvn clearly, beyoixl 
 dispute, and so that it might be cer- 
 tainly known. He hoped theli lord- 
 ships would then have no doubt what- 
 ever upon the subject. He was quite 
 sure that he spoke to an assembly 
 which would feel the deepest possible 
 regret if it should happen that an un- 
 fortunate misunderstanding should ex- 
 clude any witness whose testimony 
 might satisfy their lordships as to what 
 the proof was. He should hope that 
 the;^ would take the rale which had 
 been suggested by the noble lord under 
 the gallery- — that any person ordered 
 ro attend on that house as a witness 
 during the present proceeding should 
 not be suftered to be examined, if he 
 should have previously been present 
 during the examination of any other 
 witness. But he should be very sorry 
 (whatever might be the inconveniences 
 which might arise from a contrary 
 course) if their lordships applied this 
 rule to such an extent as to exclude 
 parties employed as the agents of those 
 who were concerned in the case ; or, 
 in consequence of such a mistake as 
 had occurredj if their lordships applied 
 it in the present instance. (Hear, hear.) 
 He, for one, would ten thousand times 
 rather meet these inconveniences and 
 consequences, than that, because of a 
 mis-understanding,this evidence should 
 be shut out. The Lord-Chancellor 
 then repeated the rule, and asked their 
 lordships, whether it was their plea- 
 sure to adopt it? 
 
 Earl GREY said a few words in ex- 
 planation. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR 
 thought there could be no doudC ia 
 
CROSS-EXAiMlNATION OF THEODORE MAJOCHI. 41 
 
 fbc world, but that in this case, as in 
 cases of a much less complicated na- 
 ture, occasion might arise, in the course 
 of the business, to call in witnes3es 
 whom the counsel, in a former part of 
 the proceeding, might never have in- 
 tended to call, nor seen the necessity 
 of bringing forward. 
 
 After one or two observations, in a 
 low tone of voice, from the Marquis of 
 LANSDOWN and Lord EllSKINP:, 
 the question founded upon the sugges- 
 tion of Earl GREY and Lord GKEN- 
 VILLE, was put and agreed to, and 
 counsel were again called in. 
 
 Earl GREYobserved,that there might 
 be some convenience in prohibiting wit- 
 nesses who were to give evidence there 
 from giving it without. The same 
 principle which had now excluded 
 them from hearing the cvidcHce of one 
 another within these walls, should 
 be applied to exclude them from receiv- 
 ing it, in any way without. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM represented to 
 their lordships, that, in consequence 
 of what had passed yesterday, one of 
 the witnesses had been present at thie 
 examination. He meant Sir William 
 Gell. Bnt Ue meant to say that he was 
 so present, officially, upon his duty, 
 and not professionally. Their lord- 
 ships would observe;, that Sir William 
 Gell was there in attendance upon her 
 Majesty. (Order, order, from Lord 
 Liverpool: and cries of " withdraw.") 
 Mr. DENM AN hoj>ed their lordships 
 would permit him to mention one par- 
 ticular circumstance. It might be 
 known to them that Lord Landatf was 
 another of the witnesses summoned 
 upon the part of her Majesty. In the 
 course of the morning he had asked 
 his Majesty's Attorney-General's per- 
 mission that this witness should be pre- 
 sent at the proceeding. He felt it his 
 duty however, now to apply for their 
 lordships' permission, because the con- 
 sent of counsel on either side could not 
 affect the rule. He considered it in- 
 cumbent upon him to give this notice, 
 in order either to retain his lordship as 
 a witness for examination, or have the 
 benefit of his being present. 
 
 The Eail of LIVERPOOL said, 
 that was quite a dilFt rent thing. An 
 Irish peer, though he was not a repre- 
 sentative peer, had a right to be pre- 
 sent at the proceedings of that house. 
 
 The Earl of LIMERICR hoped, that 
 in the application of the rule their lord- 
 ships would not make any such iovidi 
 oils distinction. 
 
 6 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR had 
 
 not recommended it for the purpose of 
 exchiding cither any Irish peer, not 
 being a representative peer, or any 
 other person, except those to whom it 
 was to extend. 
 
 The ATTORNEY - GENERAL 
 begged to know whether the rule was 
 meant to extend to those persons who, 
 from professional duties, were obliged 
 or under a necessity to attend, in this 
 stage of the proceeding, at the bar of 
 their lordships? If their lordships 
 pleased, a list should be made out of 
 all those who it was requisite should 
 so attend, and given into the Lord- 
 Chancellor's hands. 
 
 THE LORD - CHANCELLOR 
 thought itmight be very convenientjbut 
 the rule could not be meant to extend to 
 those who were professionally engaged. 
 Mr. BROUGHAM asked whether 
 his lordship meant, by that, counsel, at- 
 tornies, and their clerks ? 
 
 THE LORD - CHANCELLOR.— 
 Yes ; and any other persons whose 
 attendance is absolutely necessary. 
 
 During the discussion upon Earl 
 Grey's motion Sir William Gell had re- 
 tired. A pause now intervened, and 
 Mr. BROUGHAM requested to know 
 whether it was their lordships^ plea- 
 sure that he should go on. (Cries of 
 " Go on. go on.") 
 
 Counsel resumed. — After the rob- 
 bers had attacked or threatened th^ 
 house, and you fired on them in the 
 way you have described, was not the 
 whole house alarmed by what had taken 
 place? — I immediately ran to knock at 
 the door; and then, in going dowu 
 stairs, I found that all the people were 
 collected, and coming down stairs. 
 
 Did you see one of them with a drawn 
 
 sword in his hand, upon that occasion.? 
 
 — Non mi ricordo. — (I don't recollect.) 
 
 Was Captain Hannara there on that 
 
 occasion r — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Was Hieronimus there ? — There was 
 all the family; but I cannot say, indi- 
 vidually, whether he was there. 
 
 Did you see Bergami there? — Yes, 
 Bergami was there ; I saw him. 
 
 How long after the first alarm was it 
 that you went to knock at Bergami's 
 door ? — -Three minutes. 
 
 Three minutes after you had fired 
 the piece ? — Yes. 
 
 After knocking at Bergami's door, 
 
 and not finding him there, did you 
 
 open the door, to see whether he was 
 
 in the room or not? — No; I did not 
 
 I open the door j but Bergami came out, 
 
42 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN, 
 
 about a quarter of au hoar after ; ho 
 made a great noise when he came out. 
 
 And where were you at the time 
 Bergami did what you choose to call, 
 come out? — [Here the interpreter sub- 
 mitted that it was impossible for him 
 to put the question in this manner : he 
 could not ask him what he chose or 
 pleased to call " come out."] 
 
 I mean to ask him where he was when 
 Bergami did what, he calls, come out ? — 
 I knocked at the door, and receiving no 
 answer, went down stairs; and then 
 all the family were coming out ; and 
 then I saw Bergami coming out in 
 about a quarter of an hour after. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM here observed- 
 He first tires upon the robbers ; three 
 minutes previously he has knockx'4 
 violently at the door of B«rgami's 
 room ; then he goes to see what is the mat- 
 ter. But it seems that in a quarter of 
 an hour after this it is, that the house 
 is alarmed, and he fires at them. Will 
 you ask him, how soon it was after he 
 tired the piece that he saw Bergami 
 and the rest of the household come out ? 
 -^I fired : I ran into the room, and 
 knocked at the door of Bergami's 
 room, but received no answer : I went 
 back again to the place where I had 
 fired : the family wcr^ collected on 
 the stairs, and there was a cry of 
 " Robbers ! robbers ! we have robbers 
 in Ae house." I remained there until 
 the family had retired, and it was 
 peaceable. 
 
 Hew lone were you knocking at 
 Bergami's ^oor? — I remained a long 
 time, and I knocked very loud i louder 
 and louder. 
 
 Did you go below, from Bergami's 
 door ? — I went down into the same room 
 where the robbers got in. 
 
 Where did you, first of all, sec Ber- 
 gami, after this time ? Where, first of all, 
 did you see him again ? — In the same 
 room where I returned, and in which 
 the thieves had been. 
 
 You have said that the Princess 
 went almost immediately from Venice 
 to a private house at Naples i — ^Yes. 
 
 What is the room which is next the 
 Queen's in that house ? — There is a 
 great saloon and a corridor*, in which 
 there is a room which leads into tlie 
 bed -room of the Princess. 
 
 What other room leads into the Prin- 
 cess's room, on any other side, and 
 opens into it ? Is there any other room 
 except the saloon ? — These rooms arc 
 upon two sides of the ^saloon ; on tlie 
 third side there are others. 
 
 Explain yourself. (The interpreter 
 put the question again.) — On those two 
 sides there arc rooms, and on the last 
 side tliere is a room which is ope n to 
 the air. 
 
 Was not the room used as a sittiug- 
 room, on the side which you speak of, 
 that which opened into the Queen's 
 rooms? — I don't know what use these 
 rooms were for. 
 
 Was it there where Jeronimus slept? 
 — I don't know. (No so.) 
 
 Beyond those rooms which you have 
 described, and of which you «ay you 
 don't know the use, was there a stair- 
 case ? — I don't know. I have not seen 
 any stair-case on that side. 
 
 Where didWilliamAustin sleep in thi& 
 house? — Non mi ricordo. (A laugh.) 
 
 Where did Captain Hannam sleep ? 
 — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Was he with the Queen at Venice ? 
 — He was. 
 
 Was V/illiam Austin with her ? — He 
 was. 
 
 Was Jeronimus with her ? — He was.> 
 
 Was Cameron there with her? — No; 
 he was not there. 
 
 Was the Piccaroon there ; the child I 
 mean ; Bergami's child ?Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Did the Piccaroon, Victorine, a!« 
 ways sleep in the same room with tlie 
 Princess ? — Generally. 
 
 After the time at which the Picca- 
 roon child came to live in the house 
 with her Royal Highness, did she ge- 
 nerally sleep in the same room with 
 the Queen ? — I do not know. 
 
 Do you know of her ever sleeping in 
 any other part of the house? — I cannot 
 say. 
 
 Did you ever know her sleep in any 
 other part of the house, or of ships? — 
 Non mi ricordo. 
 
 [The interpreter here complained 
 that the witness did not understand the 
 commonest Avord even ; he was so ig- 
 norant that he (the interpreter) did 
 not know how to put a single qaestioa 
 to him.] 
 
 Will you swear that you ever, in 
 your life, saw Victorine sleep in any 
 other part of the house or ship, except 
 that where the Queen was ?-Sometiiues 
 she slept under the pavilion, where was 
 the bed of her Royal Highness, seme- 
 times down below the deck, and some- 
 times with the dame dlionncur, some- 
 times under the pavilion with her Royal 
 Highness, somitimes in a room wlthher. 
 
 (The SOLICITOR GENKUAL x^a* 
 about to address their lordship?, but 
 he was called to order.} 
 
CROSS EXAMINATION OF THEODOllE, MAJOCHI. 
 
 4S 
 
 Whom do you mean by tho " dame 
 d'honneur?" — The Countess Oldi. 
 
 Sir, upon your oath, now, did you 
 ever see Vlctorine sleeping out of the 
 room where her Majesty slept at that 
 tune?— This I don't know. 
 
 Did you ever see Victorine in any 
 bed or room asleep, in which bed or 
 room her Majesty was wot to sleep that 
 nicjht? — (The interpreter again Rub- 
 mitted that the witness did not appear 
 to understand him. Having repeated 
 the question once or twice, the witness 
 at length comprehended him, and re- 
 plied)— I never have seen it happen. 
 
 Did Mr. Burrell, an English gentle- 
 man, go to Venice with her Majesty at 
 the time yon have spoken of.'* — Non mi 
 ricordo. 
 
 Do you ever remember seeing a gen- 
 tleman of that name in her Royal High- 
 ness's family for any length of time? 
 ^-Yes ; a short young man. 
 
 When and where .?— At Villa Villani : 
 when we lived at the Villa Villani, at 
 Milan, he was there while we were. 
 
 Where did he sleep at Villa Villani ? 
 — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Where at the CasaBorromeo? — Non 
 mi ricordo. 
 
 Where at Venice ? — I don't remcm* 
 ber seeing him there at all. 
 
 When you went a second, time to 
 Genoa, was not the arrangement of 
 the rooms the same as usual with re- 
 spect to the Princess and Bergami? — 
 The Princess went to Genoa only once ; 
 at least, the second time, she went ira- 
 |n«d lately on board the ship. 
 
 You have never seen the Villa d'Este 
 since the time you spoke of before, 
 after you vcame back from the long 
 voyage ? — I have not. 
 
 Was the disposition of the rooms the 
 same as before with respect to the 
 Queen and Bergami ? — It was not. 
 
 Was there not a stair-case, or a land- 
 ing place of a stair-case, on one side 
 of the Princess's room alone? — There 
 is a small corridor. 
 
 Is there a sitting-room on the other 
 side, not opposite, but on the other 
 side ? — There is a small corridor, upon 
 the left of which is a small door open- 
 ing into the room of the Princess ; this 
 is a door which is generally locked. 
 In the middle of this corridor is a ca- 
 binetto; out of the cabinetto there is a 
 door which leads into another room. 
 
 Does not that cabinetto communi- 
 cate CD one side with the Princess's 
 room, and on the otherwith that where 
 Bergami slept .^— This room, into which 
 
 the door of the cabinetto opens, leads 
 into that where Bergami slept. 
 
 Did her Royal Highness ride oul 
 horseback on this journey to Egypt iW- 
 Yes. 
 
 About how many hours was she in 
 this way on horseback ? — Non mi ri- 
 cordo. 
 
 Was it four hours ? — She mounted in 
 the evening when the sun set, and dis- 
 mounted in the morning when th« sun 
 rose ; but I had no watch. 
 
 Will you swear she did not frequent- 
 ly ride in this manner fbr as mudi as 
 eight hours at a time ?— Non mi ri- 
 cordo 
 
 Was she not extremely fatigued when 
 she dismounted in the morning from 
 these rides?— It was said that she was 
 very tired, and immediately went to 
 rest herself on a Turkish sofa. 
 
 Did you not see her supported, from 
 excessive fatigue, the last hour or two 
 of the journey ? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 (At this period of the examination 
 her Majesty entered the house, and 
 took her usual seat below her counsel 
 and near the witness. Their lordships 
 rose on her entrance.) 
 
 After sh:; dismounted from her horse, 
 the Princess sat upon the sofa because 
 she was tired? — Yes. 
 
 Did you not yourself sleep or rest 
 yourself during the day between thq 
 inner and the outer of the two tents 
 where her Royal Highness reposed ?-»- 
 Yes, and Carlino. 
 
 Was not this the regular place of 
 rest for you and Carlino in the hours 
 of repose i" — I slept on one side, and 
 Carlino on the other. 
 
 Who was Carlino? — It was said that 
 he was a nephew of Bergami. 
 
 * One of the servants ? — ^He wore a 
 livery, as I did. 
 
 Wliat sort of sofas were put in the 
 tent on this occasion : was not one aii 
 iron bedstead and the other a sofa? 
 — First there was a Turkish sofa, and 
 then I placed an iron bedstead there. 
 
 I understand that no bedclothes wer© 
 put upon the sofa? — Not that I recol- 
 lect. 
 
 Was not the sofa put down in the same 
 way as a sofa in a room ? — Yes ; in tke 
 middle of the pavilion there was a 
 pillar, and the sofa was placed close 
 to it. 
 
 Was it not in every other respect 
 
 placed there in the same way as sofas 
 
 are placed in rooms ? — It was a sofa 
 
 like others. 
 
 Was there not a small mattress on 
 
44 
 
 TKIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 the bed ? — Yes, which belonged to the 
 small iron bed. 
 
 Was it not cased in leather ? — Non 
 mi ricordo. 
 
 Was it not your office to put it there ? 
 — ^My office and Carlino's. 
 
 These are the same bedstead and 
 sofa tii^ were on board the polacre? 
 — ^There were two bedsteads ; one 
 went into a trunk, and the other folded 
 up in a bundle. 
 
 But you do not recollect which was 
 used? — The iron bedstead was' a little 
 larger. 
 
 Was not the sofa used in the tent the 
 sarae sofa as was on board the polacre ? 
 — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Was it not the same identical sofa ; 
 or, if not, was it not so like it that you 
 might mistake the one for the other ? — 
 I cannot an;bwer that question. 
 ' Was it not the Princess's constant 
 practice, on the voyage, to throw her- 
 self down in the middle of the day for 
 repose, without taking off her clothes ? 
 — Non mi ricordo : to that I paid no 
 attention. 
 
 Will you take upon you to swear that 
 during the whole of that voyage the 
 Princess ever took off one stitch of 
 her clothes ? — After her Royal High- 
 ness had dismounted from the horse, 
 she undressed herself to rest. 
 
 What part of her clothes did she 
 take off for that purpose ? — Her upper 
 garment, her gown. 
 
 Do you mean to say that her Royal 
 Highness took off her gown, or a sur- 
 tout of cloak in which she might have 
 been riding ? — Questo non mi ricordo. 
 
 Was there not a cloak which she 
 used to throw over herself, on dis- 
 mounting, before she went to rest? — 
 Qn«sto non mi ricordo. 
 
 Did she put on a mantle when she 
 mounted to pursue her journey ? — 
 Questo non mi ricordo. 
 
 Were there sheets and blankets on 
 the sofa in the tent, on which a person 
 could go to bed, taking off his clothes, 
 ?i» in Europe? — I placed the bed and 
 some feather pillows, and thea re- 
 tired. 
 
 You did not put any sheets or blan- 
 kets on it? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Was it exactly so with the sleeping 
 in the tent on board the polacre ?— 
 Non mi ricordo. I know that there 
 were cushions, but I do not know 
 whether the beds were made. 
 
 Will you swear you ever saw, either 
 during the land-journey in Palestine, 
 or the voyage by sea home, one stitch 
 
 of bed-clothing upon the beds ?— Nob 
 mi ricordo. 
 
 Who, except yourself and Carlino, 
 ever made these heds on land or dur- 
 ing the voyajje? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Have you not sworn that it was your 
 duty and Carlino's to make the beds ? 
 — When we arrived I placed the bed in 
 the tent, and then I went out. 
 
 You told us who made the beds at 
 night; who removed them in the morn- 
 ing? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Will you swear it was not yourself? 
 — Non mi ricordo. In the evening I 
 was ordered to make the bed, and I 
 carried the cushion* : in the morning 
 I was called to take aiway the cushions, 
 for it was not a matrimonial bed — a 
 large bed ; but of single cushions. 
 
 Did you happen to see A^iliiam Aus- 
 tin rest in the tent in the same way ? — ■ 
 Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Do you know where Lieutenant 
 Hannam slept? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Do you know where the Countess of 
 Oldi slept? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Can you tell where Cameron slept? 
 — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Where did you sleep yourself?— I 
 sometimes slept on a sofa below. 
 
 Where did the maids sleep? — Non 
 mi ricordo. 
 
 Where did Lieutenant Flynn, the 
 commander of the vessel — who is, I 
 believe, a master in the navy — sleep ? 
 — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Do you recollect such a person being 
 on board, besides Lieutenant Hannam ? 
 — Yes ; I knew it. 
 
 Did you not observe him both by 
 laud and by sea ? Was he not present 
 at the laud-journey as well as the sea 
 voyage ? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Will the witness swear that Lieute- 
 nant Fiynn was not on the Idnd-journey 
 to Palestine ? — I will not. 
 
 What age is LieuteHant Flynn ; is 
 he about thirty, or above it? — I cannot 
 say. 
 
 Is he older or younger, apparently, 
 than Lieutenant Hannam ? — About 
 the same age. 
 
 Has the witness ever seen him in 
 her Royal Highness's suite except dur- 
 ing the voyage to Palestine ; except 
 during the* lon^ voyage ? — Nc>n mi ri- 
 cordo. 
 
 Did you ever see him, in your life, 
 at the Villa d'Este, at Barona, or at 
 any other of the places where her 
 Royal Highness resided ? — I camnot 
 recollect whether I have or not, I 
 don't recollect to have seen him ^% 
 
CROSS EXAMINATION OF THEODORE MAJOCHl. 
 
 45 
 
 il^Este ; indeed I do not recollect at 
 all. 
 
 When did you see Lieutenant Flynn 
 for the last time ? you must know that. 
 -Non mi rioordo. 
 
 About what time did you last see 
 jiini ? — I cannot call on myself to state 
 the time particularly. On the return 
 voyaj^e he was on board, and I do not 
 know that I have seen him since. 
 
 Were you ever sick during the voy- 
 age home from Jaffa, on board the 
 polacre? — -Whenever I am on board a 
 ship, I am more unwell than well. 
 
 (Some observations were here made 
 on the exact meaning of the words 
 *' sempro non sano," as introduced by 
 tlie witness in his answer, which Mr. 
 Brougham observed must b6 taken as 
 conveying the idea of ''always ill," and 
 not "for the most part," or "almost 
 always," as might be inferred from the 
 translation. It was, however, decided 
 that the answer should remain.) 
 
 When you were unwell you went be- 
 low, did you not, in the course of your 
 voyage? — Sometimes I threw myself 
 on a canvass, sometimes on a sofa ; 
 sometimes I went down and threw 
 myself on whatsoever was supplied to 
 me. 
 
 Did you not sleep during the voyage 
 below ? — Sometimes. 
 
 When you were ill on the voyage, 
 did you notsleep below ? — I sometimes 
 slept in the hold, in the bottom of the 
 ship. (In profondo.) 
 
 Have you not been frequently, dur- 
 ing the voyage,- for days together, that 
 you never madeyourappearance above 
 at all? — Soaaetimes I did not come up. 
 I was sometimes one or two days with- 
 out coming up. 
 
 (The witness immediately corrected 
 this last answer.) 
 
 The Interpreter. — The witness said 
 at first, " When I was unwell, some- 
 times I was a day or two without com- 
 ing up ;" now he says, tkat sometimes, 
 when he was unwell, he was "all the 
 whole day'' without coming up on 
 deck. 
 
 Will you swear that you have not 
 been for several days together without 
 coming up ? — Sometimes, when sick, I 
 L'ave been below all the day. 
 
 Mr, BROUGHAM.— I say several 
 days. — I have sometimes been below 
 all the day. 
 
 Will you say that you have never, 
 during the voyage, been kept below 
 by illness for more thau two days to- 
 
 gether? — I have been an entire day 
 without coming up. I was, at different 
 times, whole days without coming np 
 on account of illness. In the morning 
 I arose, and I kept down below till 
 the evening. 
 
 Will you swear that you have not 
 been more than two days together 
 without ever coming up at all ? — I have 
 been below one day and one night. 
 
 Will the witness take upon him now 
 to swear that he never, during the 
 whole voyage, was more than one day 
 and one night together without coming 
 up on deck ? 
 
 One of their lordships objected to. 
 the periphrastic mode in which the in- 
 terpreter translated this question. 
 
 The Interpreter. — Permit me to say, 
 with humble deferenee to your lord- 
 ships, that, in order to make the wit- 
 ness understand me, and to give your 
 lordships satisfaction, I must translate 
 the question in this way. If I were 
 speaking to a man of literary educa- 
 tion, I could easily make him under- 
 stand the question; but with such a 
 fanfaron (a laugh) it is impossible, un- 
 less every thing is stated in the plainest 
 manner. 
 
 On the motion of the Earl of LI- 
 VERPOOL, the other interpreter was 
 called in, and Mr. Brougham's ques- 
 tion — " Whether the witness would 
 swear that he never, during the whole 
 voyage, was more thau one day an4 
 one night together without coming up 
 on deck ?" — was repeated by him. 
 
 The witness answered in the affirma- 
 tive. 
 
 Does the witness mean to swear that 
 he was never more than twenty-four 
 hodrs together without coming on 
 deck ? — Yes. 
 
 Have you never continued below for 
 more than that time — from one morn- 
 ing to another — for more than twenty- 
 four hours following each other .'' — No, 
 
 During the time you were aboard 
 ship did they not keep watch, as i* 
 usual, on deck ? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Were you the only person on deck 
 in that part of the ship where her Ma- 
 jesty rested during the night?— I did 
 notsleep on deck. 
 
 When you saw a tent put up for her 
 Majesty to sleep in, were you the only 
 person then on deck ? — Non mi ricordo^. 
 
 Were there no sailors on board of 
 this ship ? — There were. 
 
 Did they never come on deck? — 
 Non mi ricordo. 
 
45 
 
 TltlAL or THE QUEExX. 
 
 Did they always remain below in 
 tho hold with you?— Non mi ricoido. 
 I believe they did at night. 
 
 Do yon mean to represent that the 
 ihip was left to go alone, during the 
 whole of the ni^jht, without sailors on 
 deck ? — I Citnnot tell whether the sailors 
 vicre in the hold, or upon the deck, 
 frhen the vessel was sailing in the night. 
 
 Did you see the sailors during the 
 day on deck r — In the day-time I be- 
 lieve they were on deck. 
 
 About how many sailors were on 
 lK)ard tins ship ? — I do not know. 
 
 Were there two or four? — I don't 
 know. 
 
 Will yon swear there were not 22 ? — 
 I cannot swear. 
 
 About what size was- this ship? — ■! 
 cannot give an account at the present, 
 because I have no knowledge of ship- 
 |>ing. 
 
 So that, whether there were 2 sailors 
 or 'iQ on board, you don't take on you 
 to swear ? — -No. 
 
 Was there a Captain ©n board ? — 
 Yes, the owner of the ship. 
 
 Was there any other oiScer in the 
 skip ?— Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Who slept in the place where you 
 ttsed to sleep ? — Other persons slept 
 there, but I don't remember who. 
 
 Where did the livery-servants of her 
 Majesty sleep ? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 i>id they sleep on deck ?— Non mi 
 ricordo. 
 
 Were not you a liverj'-serTant ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 Where did Bergami sleep? — Non 
 mi ricordo. 
 
 How many masts had the vessel? — 
 Three. 
 
 Will you swear that it was not a ship 
 of 300 tons burden ? — (Cries of" no !" 
 from their lordships, intimated an ob- 
 jection to this question.) — The witness, 
 however, answered ; Non mi ricordo. 
 
 When her Royal Highness was be- 
 low, was there not a room before you 
 entered her dining-room? — Non mi 
 Hoordo. 
 
 Where did her Royal Highness sleep 
 i«m the voyage out from Augusta to 
 funis ?— No answer. 
 
 When her Royal Highness was on 
 hervoyage from Sicily to Tunis, where 
 did she sleep ? — No answer. 
 
 When going out in the vessel, by sea, 
 from Sicily to Tunis, where did her 
 Royar Highness sleep? — Questo non 
 mi ricordo. 
 
 When proceeding to Greece, where 
 
 did her Royal Highness sleep on her 
 voyage? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 When going from Catania to Pales* 
 tine, to the Holy Land, on board the 
 ship, where did her Royal Highness 
 sleep then ? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 AV^liere did Bergami sleep on those 
 three voyages, of which you have just 
 spoken ? — That I don't know. 
 
 Where did you sleep yourself? — Be- 
 low. 
 
 Do you mean in the hold? — Yes. 
 Were you ever at all in the dining- 
 room of the vessel? — ^Not when the 
 Princess was there. 
 
 Were you ever in the room in which 
 the Princess used to dine, when she 
 was not dining there ? — Yes. 
 
 How many doors were there in that 
 room? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Do you not know that two room* 
 entered into that dining-room? — Non 
 mi ricordo. 
 
 Was the bath, when taken, always 
 taken in the dining-room itself?- — Not 
 in the dining-room, but in that next,. 
 to it. 
 
 What does the witness mean by the 
 room next the dining-room, when he 
 has said that he knew of no other ? 
 — I mean another small room in it. 
 
 Bocs he mean, when you eater from 
 tlie forepart of the vessel, through 
 which persons get into the dining-room, 
 that that there was another small room 
 branching off from it? — After you 
 entered the dining-room, there was a 
 small room inside, erected for the 
 bath. 
 
 [At this time, half-past two o'clock, 
 her Majesty retired from the house to 
 her private apartment : the peers stood 
 up as she left the house.] 
 
 The examination was then continued. 
 How often did you hear that her 
 Royal Highness took the bath during 
 this voyage.? — I can swear to two 
 times ; she might have taken it four : 
 I can only remember twice. 
 
 Was it Bergami's office to prepare 
 the bath for her Royal Highness?— 
 That I don't know ; but I believe not. 
 Whose office was it in her Royal 
 Highness's household ? — That I don*t 
 know. 
 
 Was it the witness's office!* — I was 
 ordered to carry the water into th^ 
 bath. 
 
 Bid yon carry the water into the 
 bath, or only to the door of the dining- 
 room? — I was ordered to make the 
 bath, and I filled the bath with water, 
 
CROSS EXAMINATION 01^ THEODORE MAJOCUI, 
 
 47 
 
 as far as one-lialf ; then I called Ber- 
 jjanii, aiul he went down and put his 
 hand info the bath to try its tempera- 
 ture. He then told me' to get ready 
 some more watur, to give to him, ia 
 «asc it should be wanted. 
 
 When you bro<ight the water le fill 
 the bath haif full, and called Bergami 
 to see whether it was the right tempe- 
 rature, was there any other person in 
 the room but Bergami and yourself? 
 — There was no other person. 
 
 Did you not then retire, and leave 
 Bergami to see whether the bath was 
 rightly prepared or iieated ? — After I 
 called Bergami, and Bergami thrust 
 his hand into the bath, I was ordered 
 to go and get ready some more water, 
 that I might give it to him, in case he 
 wanted it. 
 
 Was there not another room opening 
 into the dining-room, besides the room 
 in which the bath was? Was there 
 uot a second room that opened into it ? 
 — Non mi ri cordo. 
 
 Will you swear there were not two 
 rooms ; one belonging to the Princess, 
 and one to the Countess of Oldi ? — I 
 cannot remember whether there was 
 another room or not. 
 
 But will you swear that Cameron 
 did not sleep in such a room? — Mau- 
 rice Cameron — I never saw him there. 
 
 Did you ever see Maurice Cameron 
 «n the voyage at all ? — He was on board. 
 
 Was he on board, and with her 
 Royal Highness, during the whole of 
 tliis long voyage? — ^He was^ but I do 
 not remembor where he slept. 
 
 But you don't swear that he did not 
 sleep in the dining-room? — He did not. 
 
 Was he not w ith her Royal Highness 
 tluring the whole of the land journey, 
 as well as the sea-voyage? — He was. 
 
 Was he not a courier and page? — I 
 remember he was a courier, but I do 
 not know whether he was a page or not. 
 
 He was no relation of Bergami, was 
 he?— That I don't know; I cannot 
 know. 
 I You have called Carlino a relation 
 
 * «f Bergami, because he was said to be 
 «o; was Cameron ever said to be a 
 relation in the sanie way? — That I 
 nevtr heard. 
 
 What maids (female attendants) had 
 lier Royal Highness with her on this 
 long voyage? what number? — There 
 was Mademoiselle Dnmont, the Coun- 
 tess of Oldi, a brunette, and another. 
 
 Where did you last ffce Dumont ? — ; 
 I At Pesaro, v/lun I left the service of 
 P her Royal Higlaitss. 
 
 Hav« you never seen her aince that 
 time ? — Never. 
 
 Do you know where she is now ? — I 
 do not know. 
 
 Does the witness know wtiether she 
 is dead or alive ? — I cannot know that. 
 
 Have you never heard of her since 
 you left Pesaro? — Never. 
 
 Have you ever heard her talkedl 
 about since that time ? — No. 
 
 Have you never heard her name- 
 mentioned since? — I never have heard 
 it mentioned. 
 
 Have you never heard the name of 
 Sacchini mentioned since that time? — 
 I have heard the name mentioned. 
 
 Have you seen him since you wevQ 
 at Milan ? — Not since. If is possible 
 I may have spoken to him since; bat I 
 do not recollect it. 
 
 Who w^ere by at the times when yon 
 saw Bergami at breakfast with th« 
 Princess? Who saw them at breakfiist 
 besides Jeronimus and yourself? — 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL ob- 
 jected that it was not in proof thai 
 Jeronimus had seen tltfem. 
 
 You saw them at breakfast ? — Yes- 
 
 Jeronimus was present at thattiiuer 
 — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Was the Countess of Oldi preseatr— 
 Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Was not Jeronimus present at any of 
 the times when you saw the Princes* 
 and Bergami at breakfast together r — 
 I do not recollect whether he was pi-e- 
 sent. 
 
 Who was by when yon saw Bergaim 
 salute her Royal Highness on going t» 
 do some business for himself in Sicilyi 
 — I saw nobody but myself, the PriiN 
 cess, and BergamL 
 
 Who was present hc^des y-ow\*pif 
 when Bergami saluted the 3*rincc5s on 
 landing, on account ef the quarantine 
 in Italy? — I saw nobody but mysclC 
 the Princess, and Bergami. 
 
 Was it not upon the deck of the Te<»- 
 
 seU after dinner, that this happened ^i* 
 
 — It was before they went upon deck. 
 
 Was it not after dinner i — Aftai- 
 
 dinner. 
 
 And where had they dined? — ^Noa 
 mi ricordo. 
 
 W^as it not in the room in whic"h they 
 had dined that this took place? — It 
 was in the dining-roora : the Princfn* 
 was there, and Bergami canie to tax« 
 Icsive on departing. 
 
 Were you not in tlre^room at tire 
 time? — I was. 
 
 When her KojaJ iliglmcss »icpt m 
 
48 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUKEN. 
 
 the tent on deck, did she not burn a 
 light at night? — No. 
 
 Have you ever been at Villa d'Este 
 since you quitted the service of the 
 Princess ? — Yes, after being at Pesaro 
 I went to Villa d'Este. 
 
 Did you go there straigkt? — Straight 
 forward. 
 
 How long did you stay there? — -Non 
 mi ricordo. 
 
 Was it days or Meeks ? — Days, but 
 how many precisely — non mi ricordo. 
 
 Have you ever been there since that 
 time ?— I was there a second time. 
 
 How long after the first time ? — Non 
 mi ricordo. 
 
 Was it months or weeks ? — I cannot 
 say, but I do not think more than a 
 month. 
 
 Did you ever apply to betaken back 
 into the service of her Royal Highness 
 after you left it ? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Did you ever apply to Count Vassal! 
 to be taken back ?— Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Did you ever apply to Baron Berga- 
 m\ to be taken back ? — If I well recol- 
 lect, never. 
 
 Did you ever make application to 
 Luigi Bergami for that purpose? — Non 
 mi ricordo. 
 
 Did you ever apply to Mr. Schiavini 
 to make interest for your being taken 
 back?— Once I did 
 
 When was that once ? — At the hotel 
 of Italy. 
 
 How long after you left Pesaro ? — 
 Non mi recordo. 
 
 A week after? — More than a month. 
 
 Will you swear it was not more than 
 half a year?--I cannot recollect how 
 many months it was. 
 
 Did you ever write a letter to be 
 taken back either to Bartoloaao Ber- 
 gami or to Schiavini ? — Never, because 
 it is ray misfortune to know very little 
 ©f writing. 
 
 Did you ever get any body else to 
 write aletler for you for that purpose? 
 — Never, as far as I can recollect. 
 
 When you made application to be 
 taken back at the hotel of Italy, were 
 yon refused ? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Were you in fact taken back ? — No. 
 
 Have you ever been taken back in 
 point of fact?— After I left the service 
 of the Princess, I never entered it 
 again. 
 
 Was not Schiavini with her during 
 the vhole of the voyage to the East? — 
 Me was on board the vessel. 
 
 Was he not on shore too ? — ^He was 
 also on shore during the whole of the 
 journey. 
 
 In the journeys by land which the 
 Princess made, did not Madame Oldi 
 and the child Victorine travel in the 
 same carriage with her Royal High- 
 ness ? — Qncsto non mi ricordo. 
 
 Was Billy, William Austin, in the 
 same carriage with her ? — Questo noa 
 mi ricordo. 
 
 Whose house did the Princess oc- 
 cupy at Carlsruhe ? — I do not know. 
 
 Was it an inn or a private house ?■— 
 I believe an inn. 
 
 Was it not an apartment in an inn 
 which the English Minister had given 
 up to accommodate her Royal High- 
 ness ? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Were William^ustin, Madame Oldi, 
 and Victorine, with her Royal High- 
 ness on that journey? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Will you take upon you to swear 
 that they were not all there with her ? 
 — They were on the journey. 
 
 Were they not on the journey the 
 whole time? — 'They vere. 
 
 Did they not go wherever her Royal 
 Highness went on that occasion ? — ^Yes. 
 
 Was it not a journey which her Royal 
 Highness undertook, to pay a visit to 
 her relation, the Grand Duke of 
 Baden ? — I recollect that she set out 
 on a journey to Baden. 
 
 Did not the Elector wait upon her 
 at Carlsruhe, and did she not go to 
 Court there ? — I do not recollect pre- 
 cisely. 
 
 Do you mean to say that you do not 
 recollect whether the* Princess, while 
 at Baden, did go to Court at all ?— Her 
 Royal Hiffhness went to Court. 
 ^ Did the Grand Duke wait upon her 
 Royal Highness at her hotel?— That I 
 cannot know. 
 
 Was the English Minister seen with 
 her Royal Highness at that place ? — I 
 do not know. 
 
 Do you happen to know the name of 
 the English Minister then at that 
 place? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 You have described a change having 
 been made in the Villa d'Este during 
 the long voyage. Was not a new 
 wing built to it? — Non mi recordo. 
 
 Do you mean to represent to this ' 
 court that you do not recollect whe- 
 ther a new wing was added during the 
 time you and your mis^ess were ab- 
 sent? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Was not a new door made ? — No|i 
 mi ricordo. 
 
 W hen the sports were performed by 
 Mahomet was not Dr. Holland present 
 with the Princess ?— No, I did not see 
 him. 
 
CnOSS-EXAMI.VATION OP THEODORE MAJOCIII. 
 
 49 
 
 Will you swear that Dr. Holland was 
 not present; and I do not care which 
 way you answer? — No, I did not see 
 kim. 
 
 Could he have been there without 
 your seeing liim ? — I did not see him. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL.— 
 Mr. Brougham forgets that, according 
 to the evidence, Dr. Holland quitted 
 at Venice, and this man came from 
 Jaffa. 
 
 "Will you swear that Lieutenant 
 Hanuam was not present when Maho- 
 met played oft" these tricks ? — I did not 
 see him : if I bad seen hiin, I would 
 have said it. 
 
 Who else was there besides yourself, 
 the performer, and her Royal High- 
 ness?— I saw only Bergami, the Prin- 
 etas, and Mahomet, on that occasion. 
 
 Whom did they send for Mahomet ? 
 Did they send you? — Non mi recordo. 
 
 Were you so placed tiiat her Royal 
 Highness saw yon at the time, as well 
 as Mahomet? — I was in such a position, 
 that when Mahomet played his tricks 
 the Princess did not see me, but Ma- 
 homet and Bergami did. 
 
 Was it in a room ? — No, in a court. 
 
 Did any windows look into the 
 court ? — AH the windows of the apart- 
 ment. 
 
 Where were you placed ? — I stood 
 near the door that led to the lake. 
 
 Were you in the court where Ma- 
 homet was? — At the door leading to 
 the lake. 
 
 Where was the Princess ? — At the 
 window of her bed-room or cabinet ; 
 but precisely I do not recollect. 
 
 Where was Mahomet? — He was 
 coming out of the door of the stable 
 alone. 
 
 Did Mahomet stand in the court to 
 perform these tricks ? — Near the win- 
 dow of her Keyal Highness. 
 
 Was his back turned to yon ? — I was 
 at his side. Mahomet was looking at 
 her Royal Highness. 
 
 Then you were on the same side as 
 the Princess, looking out at the win- 
 dow? (The witness described, by the 
 position of the house, that Mahomet 
 was on one side, the Princess on the 
 •ther, and he at a door towards the 
 back, in the middle.) 
 
 Prom the position in which you stood 
 on the opposite side of the court you 
 could see her Royal Highness ? — I was 
 at the door at the back, add saw the 
 Princess at the window. 
 
 Yet you swear that she could not see 
 
 7 
 
 you there? — She could see me, but I 
 do not know whether she had seen me. 
 Who ordered this Mahomet to come 
 and perform these tricks? — I do not 
 know. 
 
 Then, for anything you know, there 
 might be some persons in the same 
 room as her Royal Highness, standing 
 a little way behind her ? — I could not 
 see if there were any body within. I 
 saw her Royal Highness put her head 
 out of the vnndow to see the man play 
 those tricks. 
 
 Did you never see this Arabian play 
 the same tricks on any other occasion ? 
 — ^Yes, at Barona. 
 
 Was her Royal Highness present 
 then ? — Yes, with Bergami. 
 
 And any body else ?— The people of 
 the family; 
 
 Men as well as women ? — Footmen, 
 coachmen, kitchen people, and scul- 
 lions, who were there to look at him. 
 
 When you left her Royal Highness's 
 service, you say that you first went 
 into the service of the Marquis of 
 Onischalti ? — Yes. 
 
 Were you in her Royal Highness's 
 family again when that affair of the 
 Baron Ompteda took place ? 
 
 The SOLICITOR GENERAL ob- 
 jected to the terms of the question. 
 
 Did you ever see a certain Baron 
 Ompteda? — I do not remember his 
 name. 
 
 Did you ever, the year before you 
 went the long voyage, see a German 
 Baron dining with her Royal Highness 
 at Villa d'Este ?— In the Casa VillanL 
 I saw him: he was a Prussian. 
 
 Tell us what his name sounded like 
 as well as you can recollect. — The 
 name I cannot tell precisely, because 
 it was an extraordinary name ; but he 
 was called Baron of something. 
 
 Whatever his name might be, was 
 he very frequently at her Royal High- 
 ness's? — I remember well, so that I 
 can swear that he was twice at the 
 Casa Villani. 
 
 What makes you recollect his com- 
 ing there ? — I do not know. 
 
 Did any affair happen in the Prin- 
 cess's family which made a noise con- 
 nected with this Baron ? — Non mi ri- 
 cordo. 
 
 During the time you were in the ser- 
 vice of her Royal Highness at Villa 
 Villani or at Villa d'Este, do yon re- 
 collect any blacksmith or locksmith 
 being examined there respecting the 
 picking of locks ?— Non mi ricordo. 
 
60 
 
 TRIAL OP THE QUEEN. 
 
 About making false keys ? — Non mi 
 licordo. 
 
 You never heard of such a thini; in 
 the family, while you were there ? — I 
 do not recollect to have heard it. 
 
 Do you remember no quari^el taking 
 place between ' Lieutenant Hannam 
 and the German Baron, while you 
 were there? — I liad heard that they 
 had had a quarrel together, but I do 
 not know the cause. 
 
 About what time did you hear this ? 
 — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Before or after you came from the 
 long voyage ? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 About how long before you left the 
 Princess's service ? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Do you mean to say that you cannot 
 tell whether it was a week or two 
 years ? — I do not remember the time. 
 
 Do you- remember what company 
 used to come to the theatre at Villa 
 d'Este, where the Princess acted twice? 
 — I do not know. 
 
 Did you ever see the Prefect of 
 Como, Tomasi and his lady attend that 
 theatre ? — Questo non mi ricordo. 
 
 Professor Mochetti, of Milan, did 
 you ever see him there ? — I saw him 
 there. 
 
 Do you mean that you saw him at 
 the Villa visiting, or at the theatre ? — 
 I have seen him come to pay visits, 
 but never at the theatre. 
 
 Did you ever see General Bognar, 
 the Austrian commandant, with his 
 lady, come there ? — I remember well 
 that he came to visit her Royal High- 
 ness with a lady ; but whetlier she was 
 his wife or not, I do not know. 
 
 »Did you ever see General Pino visit 
 the Princess ? — I remember seeing him 
 once, but it might be more. 
 
 lETsed you to wait at table at dinner ? 
 — Yes. 
 
 Will you take upon you to say that 
 you do not know that your old master, 
 General Pino, dined with her Royal 
 Highness more tlian once ? — I only saw 
 him once that I recollect. 
 
 Did you know the person of the 
 prefect Tomasi, of Como ? — Tomasi I 
 know. 
 
 Will you say that you have not seen 
 him and his lady dine more than once 
 with the Princess ? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Do you mean that you never saw 
 them dine there at all, or only once ? — 
 I only reeollect his dining once; it 
 might be more than once. 
 
 Did not the persons who happened 
 to be visitinc; in the Princess's house 
 
 take part indiscriminately in those 
 plays wliich were acted at her private 
 thcatrf ? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Did Mr. Hannam never act ? — Non 
 mi rieordo. 
 
 Mr. Cavalletti ? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Do you mean to represent that you 
 never saw any other parts performed 
 on that stage excepting by her Royal 
 Highness and Bergami ? — I do not 
 know: at the moment I entered I saw 
 her Royal Highness and Bergami : 
 other people I saw not, for I went 
 away. 
 
 What sort of a comedy was it they 
 were acting when you saw them ? — On 
 entering the room I saw Bergami play- 
 ing the part of a buffoon, striking a 
 bladder, like a fiddler. Then I went 
 away, and saw nothing else. 
 
 Did Mahomet perform his dance on 
 that stage ? — I never saw him. 
 
 How long were you in the service of 
 the Marquis Onischalti ? — Nearly a 
 year. 
 
 Always in Italy ? — No, in Germany. 
 
 How soon after you went to him did 
 you go to Germany ? — Two or three 
 months ; I cannot say precisely. 
 
 How long were you with him at 
 Vienna ? — Six or seven months, but I 
 do not recollect precisely. 
 
 What wages had you from him ?— 
 At Milan I had 50 soldi (i25d.) per day : 
 at Vienna, four livres of Milan. 
 
 How many soldis are there in a livre 
 of Milan ? — Twenty. 
 - At Vienna was this rise of wages in 
 consequence of your living at a hotel? 
 — Because I lived out of the house, 
 and had to pay for my own dinner. 
 
 What salary had you from her Royal 
 Highness ? — Every three months I re- 
 ceived 29 ducats. 
 
 How many livres of Milan are there 
 in aducat?~The ducat contains six 
 and a half Milan livres ; but I do not 
 speak precisely. 
 
 Had you these 29 ducats every three- 
 months, livinff all the time at the table 
 of her Royal Highness? — Yes. 
 
 Had you any perquisites besides ? — • 
 Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Was her Royal Highness kind to all 
 her servants ? — She was kind and af- 
 fable. 
 
 At the Marquis Onischalti's, where 
 you had 50 soldi per day, you had to 
 feed yowrself ? — I was allowed soup. 
 
 [The Interpreter explained that the 
 word here used by the witness did not 
 mean pottage, but merely liquid.] 
 
CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THEODOHE MAJOCIII. 
 
 51 
 
 Had yon saved money— ^a little for- 
 tnne— in ihe Princess's service? — I put 
 by 700 livres. 
 
 How Ion 55 had yon been accumulat- 
 ing it? — Three years. 
 
 I)id yon save any thijiej out of the 50 
 soldi per day which the Marquis Onis- 
 chalti gave yon ? — By economy I was 
 able to save a little money for my fa- 
 mily. 
 
 What did your family consist of? — 
 A wife and two daughters. 
 
 How old are they ? — One nine, and 
 the other between two and three years 
 old. 
 
 About what time did you quit the 
 service of the Marquis Onischalti, at 
 Vienna ? — About two years ago. 
 
 Into whose family did you then go? 
 ■^The Ambassador's of Vienna. 
 
 The English Ambassador? — The 
 English Aivibassador gave me some- 
 thing to live upon. 
 
 What w«s his name ? — Lord Stewart. 
 
 Did you go as postilion, lacquey, or 
 courier, into his service?— Lord Stewart 
 gave me only my living. 
 
 Do you mean that you became at- 
 tached to his embassy as a sort of pri- 
 vate secretary, or w hat ? — I was always 
 at the embassade. 
 
 Were you in his house on the footing 
 •f a private friend? — No, not a» a 
 friend. 
 
 When did you first see his Excel- 
 lency, the English Ambassador ? — I do 
 not remember ; I saw his secretary. 
 
 What was the secretary's name ? — 
 Mr. Durin. 
 
 Was he an Englishman or an Italian? 
 —I cannot tell. 
 
 In what language did he talk to yoH ? 
 —In French. 
 
 J)o you know a ceitain Colonel 
 Brown? — I do. 
 
 What countryman is he ? — It is im- 
 possible for me to know. 
 
 What language did he talk ? — French. 
 
 Where did you first see him ? — At 
 Milan. 
 
 Was it while yon were in the service 
 of the Marquis Onischalti ? — No. 
 
 Whose service were you then in ? — 
 At that time in the service of no one ; 
 I had left the service of the Marquis 
 Onischalti. 
 
 Do you mean to say that you left the 
 family of Onischalti for sorwc time at 
 Vienna, and then wenttohim again ? — 
 No; I left Vienna, and went to Milan 
 to Colonel Brown. 
 
 Did you go with hira, or to him? — 
 Toliim. 
 
 Whom did you go with from Milan 
 to Vienna ? — With my father. 
 
 At what time was it that you went 
 from Milan to Vienna with the Marquis 
 Onischalti? — On the 13th of August, 
 throe years ago. 
 
 Do you m«an in 1817 ? — Yes. 
 
 At what time did you leave the ser- 
 vice of the Princess? — In 1817. 
 
 In what month of the yoar ? — Non 
 mi ricordo. 
 
 Was it in summer or in winter ?^*Iii 
 summer ; after summer. 
 
 How long after you left her service 
 did you go with the Onischalti family 
 to Vienna? — About five or six month* 
 after. 
 
 How did you return to Milan from 
 Vienna? — I came to Colonel Brown. 
 
 But who accompanied you? — My 
 father. 
 
 It was here remarked by a noble 
 lord that 4 o'clock, the hour fixed for 
 adjournment, had arrived. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said, May I im- 
 plore your lordships to allow me to 
 proceed ? ■ In all courts — I mean in all 
 courts where justice is administered — 
 I need not have made this humble re- 
 quest ; but, acting as a court of jus- 
 tice, I entreat your lordships to beware 
 how yott stop short in the middle of 
 a cross-examination. If you are so 
 advised to think fit that I should stop 
 at this critical period of a critical exa- 
 mination, hard as it is, I can only sub- 
 mit. (Cries of" Go on, go on.") 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR asked 
 whether it would be finished to-day? 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM answered that 
 he could certainly finish it ; but that 
 there was this difference between an 
 examination in chief and a cross-exa- 
 mination, that, in the first case, the in- 
 structions were written or printed; 
 and, in the last, one unexpected an- 
 swer (as had actually been the case 
 to-day) might lead to half an hour's 
 digression. (" Go on, go on.") 
 
 Was your father in the service of 
 the Marquis Onischalti, at Vienna?— 
 He was not. 
 
 Then how came he to come to VU 
 enna ? — He came to Vienna totakemci 
 
 Who sent him for you ?— •! cannot tell. 
 
 What is your father ? — Jean Baptiste 
 Majochi. 
 
 What is liis business? — A carter or 
 carrier of merchandise, with horses. 
 
 Does he carry from Milan to Vienna? 
 is that the course he takes with his 
 merchandise ? — No. 
 
 Hovr did this carrier happen to set 
 
59 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 ont to pay you a visit at Vienna ? — He 
 came to Vienna to tell me to come to 
 Milan. 
 
 Did be coma with his carrier's cart? 
 —No. 
 
 At the time your father came to Vi- 
 enna, were you in the service of the 
 ^unbassador ? — No. 
 
 Were you living at the ambassador's 
 house ? — No. 
 
 Was it during the time you were sup- 
 ported by the ambassador ? — No. 
 
 In whose service were you? — The 
 Marquis Onischalti's. 
 
 When your father took you to Milan, 
 clid you then see Colonel Brown or Co- 
 lonel Durin? — I saw Colonel Durin at 
 Vienna, and Colonel Brown afterwards 
 at Milan. 
 
 You had seen Colonel Durin at 
 Vienna while you were with the Mar- 
 quis Onischalti ? — No, after my father 
 had come to fetch me. 
 
 What induced you to leave the ser- 
 vice of the Marquis Onischalti, whom 
 you liked so well, and go back with 
 this respectable old carter to Milan ? — 
 My father told me to go to Milan with 
 )iim. 
 
 Did you go to Milan merely out of res- 
 pect to the order of your father? — No, 
 he told me that Colonel Brown, at Mi- 
 lan, wanted to speak to me. 
 
 Did you not humbly represent that 
 your bread depended upon your 
 place in the family of Onischalti? — 
 Yes. 
 
 But still he told you to go and speak 
 to Colonel Brown, and therefore you 
 went to speak to him ? — Yes. 
 
 Whenever any body tells you to go 
 Colonel Brown because he wanted to 
 speak to you, do you go directly with 
 them ? — (Cries of " order" prevented 
 the witness from answering this ques- 
 tion.) 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.— I submit that 
 it is a perfectly legal question, such as 
 is put in every court of justice, and 
 such as has led before now to the dis- 
 covery of conspiracies against the lives 
 of individuals. Noble lords and j udges 
 fire now present whom I have seen save 
 the lives of their fellow-subjects by 
 such questions, and so put, and who 
 could not have done it if they had been 
 disturbed by cries of '* order." 
 
 You went to Colonel Brown directly? 
 — When my father told me so, I went 
 to Colonel Brown directly. 
 
 And if your father were to ask you 
 to speak to Colonel Black, would you 
 go also > 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL.— I 
 
 submit that that is not a proper qut's- 
 tion : what the witness would do under 
 particular circumstances cannot be 
 asked him. Hypothetical questions 
 are not regular. 
 
 Did yon ever go before by your 
 father's desire to speak to Colonel 
 Brown or to any body else? — Never: 
 before my father spoke to me, I never 
 went to any place. 
 
 Had you ever seen Colonel Brown 
 before you went to speak to him at Mi- 
 lan ? — Never. 
 
 How did you support yourself on the 
 journey from Vienna to Milan, when 
 you went to speak to Coloiel Brown? 
 — My father paid my journey. 
 
 Has he made a private fortune by 
 the lucrative trade of a carter or car- 
 rier? — He has not. 
 
 Has your father any money at all but 
 what he miikes from day to day by his 
 trade ? — No. 
 
 Did you live pretty comfortably on 
 the road fro n Vienna to Milan to speak 
 with Colonel Brown ? — We wanted no- 
 thing. 
 
 You did not go in your father's cart, 
 I suppose; in what sort of carriage did 
 you jro? — In a species of cala'^h. 
 
 When you got to Milan, did your 
 father introduce you to this Colonel to 
 whom you had come to sj)eak ? — Yes. 
 
 Did you complain to Colonel Brown 
 of the loss you sustained in giving up 
 a good place or a good master? — Ques- 
 to non mi ricordo. 
 
 Had you made any bargain with the 
 Marquis Omschnlti to take you back 
 after you came to speak to Colonel 
 Brown? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Have you any doubt, upon your 
 oath, that you had made no such bar- 
 gain with the Marquis Onischalti? — 
 Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Have you ever been in his service 
 again since the conversation with Co- 
 lonel Brown ? — Yes. 
 
 When did you go back to the Onisr 
 chalti family? — I was not in his service 
 again ; but he was going to Hungary, 
 and he called to know if I would go 
 with him. 
 
 Did you go with him as a partie-de- 
 chasse,* or did you go with him foe 
 pleasure? — I was asked by the Marquis 
 if I would go with him into Hungary 
 as his cook for 3 months. 
 
 Did you go with him, and receive 
 wages as a cook for 3 months.^ — He 
 made me a present: I had no wages. 
 
 How long did you remain in Huiiga- 
 
CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THEODORE MAJOCHI. 
 
 53 
 
 ry ? — Three months, or three raonthi 
 and a half. 
 
 Was Onischalti a friend to the English 
 Ambassador at Vienna? — I do not 
 know. 
 
 Did you never see him at his house? 
 — I do not know. 
 
 How long is it since you came back 
 from that trip to Hungary with the 
 MarqHis Onischalti? — Last year, after 
 the month of August or September. 
 
 Having no wages, how did you sup- 
 port yourself from the time you left 
 Vienna to the time you came and went 
 to Hungary with Onischalti? — The 
 ambassador gave me sometliing to 
 live on. 
 
 Did the ambassador give you any 
 thing when you went to Milan ? — Non 
 mi ricordo. 
 
 Who paid the expenses? — My father. 
 
 Did you go post, or how? — Post. 
 
 Both going and coming back ? — No. 
 
 How did you return from Milan to 
 Vienna ? — By a public conveyance. 
 
 Who paid? — I and my father. 
 
 Who gave you the money to pay.' — 
 Colonel Brown. 
 
 Did your father go back with you? 
 —Yes. 
 
 Is your father in the country? — He is. 
 
 A«d your wife ? — Yes. 
 
 And your small family of children ? 
 —No. 
 
 In what square or street do you live 
 in London? — I cannot tell the name. 
 
 How did you come down here to- 
 day ? Did you walk or eome in a car- 
 riage? — On foot. 
 
 About how far was it? Your shoes 
 are quite clean : how many streets did 
 you pass through ? — I cannot tell the 
 distance. 
 
 How many minutes did it take you 
 to walk from your residence, your 
 house, or hotel, to this place? — Ten 
 minutes. 
 
 Who came with you? — I do not 
 know : it was a gentleman who came 
 to call me. 
 
 Do your father and wife live in the 
 same hotel with you ? — Yes. 
 
 And is nobody else in the same hotel? 
 —Yes. 
 
 Aboi:^t how many others ? — I do not 
 know. 
 
 Will you swear there are not 70? — 
 Qucsto noQ mi ricordo. 
 
 Are they all Italians? — I do aot 
 know: I never asked. 
 
 Are there any other Italians there 
 besides yourself, your venerable pa- 
 jrent, and your amiable wife ? 
 
 [The house shewing some symptoms 
 of disapprobation at this question, Mr. 
 Brougham repeated it, leaving out the 
 epithets.] 
 
 Answer. — I believe so. 
 
 Have you any doubt of there being 
 any other Italians besides yourself 
 there ? — There are other Italians. 
 
 Are there many waiters in this inn? 
 — I do not know the number. 
 
 Do you know the sign or name of the 
 hotel ? — I do npt. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL com- 
 plained that Mr. Brougham had as- 
 sumed that the witness lived at an inn, 
 and founded his question on that as- 
 sumption. 
 
 Is it an inn in which you lodge .'' — I 
 do not know whether it is an inn. 
 
 Is there a sign above the door? — ■ 
 I never made the observation. 
 
 Have you ever had any bill brought 
 you to pay ?-^No (with emphasis.) 
 
 Have you ever paid any bill? — N«; 
 but I have to pay. 
 
 Are you to pay, yotlrself, for your 
 entertainment at this inn ? — I have not 
 been asked, and I do not know whether 
 I have to pay. 
 
 But are you to pay for your own 
 keep? — I do not know. 
 
 Were you ever in such a place before, 
 where you did not know whether yon 
 were to pay for your own keep or 
 not? 
 
 Lord FALMOUTH, from the gal- 
 lery, asked whether the cross examina- 
 tion was nearly concluded? (Cries of 
 " go on.") Supposing that the business 
 would close to day at 4 o'clock, he had 
 made a private engagement according- 
 ly, though he was quite ready to sit tUl 
 6 or 7 o'clock, if necessary. 
 
 Lord DONOUGHMORE thought 
 that the rule, if made, ought to be ad- 
 hered to. Nobody could tell whether 
 the cross-examination might not last 2 
 hours more. He thought that the wit- 
 ness deserved protection, and that some 
 part of the cross-examination might 
 have been spared. He moved an ad- 
 journment. 
 
 Earl GREY had seen nothing in the 
 disposition of the house not to give 
 protection to the witness. Very par- 
 ticular questions to elicit the truth had 
 been put, and he thought that no rule 
 could be more injurious than one which 
 forced the house to separate at a criti- 
 cal moment, by which the ends of jus- 
 tice might be defeated. If a rule were 
 made, he hoped it would be extend€4 
 to 5 o'clock. 
 
54 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUfiEN. 
 
 Lord FALMOUTH added, that he 
 had not interposed till hall-past 4. 
 
 TheLORD-CKANCKLLOR wn% in 
 favour of adherinjx to the riilo. He 
 liad not entered the house this morn- 
 i)^ till 5 minutes past 10, in conse- 
 <}ucnce of consnitin^ with the judges 
 on a matter of life and <feath ; and their 
 fiirther dclibeiation had been po§tpo- 
 ned until after the adjonmraom to-day. 
 It was impossible to know what ques- 
 tions might turn out to be material or 
 immaterial. Adjourning at 5 o'clock 
 would gain 6 hours in the week, and 
 that he considered a very material ac- 
 fluisition. 
 
 The 3:arl of LIVERPOOL did not 
 object to 5 o'clock being fixed in future 
 as the hour of adjounnnent. 
 
 The house adjourned at a q^uarter 
 before 5 o'clock, with the understand- 
 ing that in future they were to sit till 5. 
 
 WEDNESDAY, August e5th. 
 The Earl of DARLINGTON rose 
 immediately after prayers. Before 
 their lordships proceeded with the exa- 
 mination of the witnesses, he wished to 
 call their attention to a subject con- 
 nected with the important business 
 before them. In order to assist them 
 in accomplishing the object they all had 
 in view, which was the doing of ample 
 justice, it was necessary they should 
 liave the means of forming a correct 
 judgment on the evidence. It was 
 tlierefore desirable that their lordships 
 should have before them printed copies 
 ©f the evidence taken from day to day. 
 however difficult it might be to obtain 
 this evidence, he thought it indispen- 
 sable ; for it might be necessary for 
 their lordships to ask questions on 
 inany points, and he believed few pos- 
 sessed memories capable of retaining 
 ihe great mass of evidence detailed be- 
 fore them for a length of time. For 
 his part, be declared that he felt him- 
 self totally unable to keep the evidence 
 in his mind so as to avail himself, after 
 it considerable period, of it by recol- 
 lection. The evidence given by the 
 witness in support of the bill, on the 
 lirst day, had made, he confessed, a 
 ■very strong impression on his mind, but 
 the cross-examination which took place 
 yesterday had, on the contrary, tended 
 Ver\- much to diminish that impression. 
 fHere was a loud cry of order ! order ! 
 from part of the house.] He wished 
 their lordships to understand that he 
 made this observation by way of illus- 
 tmtion, to show the necessity of their 
 
 having the evidence printed from day 
 to day, and laid before them. After 
 the counsel on each side had examined 
 a witness, certain noble lords might 
 wish still further to ccmplete that exa- 
 mination by questions of their own. 
 This could not be well done, unless they 
 had before them, every morning 
 the evidence of the preceding day. 
 It would probably be stated, that it 
 would be difficult to get the evi* 
 dence printed in this way: bat this 
 objection, he thought, could scarcely 
 be made, when their lordshipg saw 
 what was done by the newspapers. 
 Very much to his astonishment, he 
 had seen both yesterday and to-day the 
 whole of the evidence of the preceding 
 day published at lenjith. He could not 
 be certain that the evidence was always 
 thus given without the altt ration of a 
 single word ; and it might be said that 
 their lordships ought to have a vouched 
 copy : but as so much was done in the 
 newspapers, he thought there could be 
 no difficulty in getting it detailed in 
 the same manner for the use of the 
 house. He would therefoi*e move, that 
 minutes of the evidence be printed for 
 their lordships from dav to dav. 
 
 The Earl of LAUDERDALE sug- 
 gested the propriety of tbeir lordships 
 having before them plans of the places 
 alluded to in the evidence. It would 
 facilitate the investigation very much 
 if the different parties would agree on 
 a plan ; or, if that could not be done, 
 each mipht give m a plau. 
 
 Lord ERSRINE said a few words, 
 and^as we understood, approved of 
 each party giving in a plan. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR said, 
 that, however desirable it would be 
 for their lordships to have on the table, 
 every morning, printed copies of the 
 proceedings of the preceding day, it 
 would be necessary, before their lord- 
 ships came to any resolution on the 
 subject, to consider what steps must 
 be taken for accomplishing such a pur- 
 pose. Unless tkey departed from their 
 rule, that whatever was print»id for the 
 use of the house must he, held to be 
 correct on the responsibility of the 
 clerks, he did hot see how the printing 
 could take place. With respect to the 
 publications to which the noble lord 
 had referred, it ^fas easy to understand 
 how persons who might obtain admis- 
 sion there could, by retiring every 
 quarter of an hour, or every half-hour, 
 in succession, be enabled to give an 
 account of the proceedings. But if 
 
CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THEODORE MAJOCIIT, 
 
 i)3 
 
 tliat method were taken for tlic house, 
 the short-hand notes of the reporters 
 must be compared with tl»e notes of 
 the clerk, and the copy authenticated 
 by him as correct. After all the ex- 
 perience he had had in matters of this 
 kind, he doubted whether any utility 
 which might be obtained from having 
 t\\e minutes printed from day to day 
 would be a compensation for the de- 
 pSrture from their lordships' rule. 
 
 The EARL of LIVERPOOL agreed 
 with the Lord Chancellor, that the 
 advantage of receiving minutes of evi- 
 dence daily would not be equal to that 
 of the certainty of having it accurately 
 printed. 
 
 The Earl of LAUDERDALE said 
 that the form of authenticating the 
 copy at the Parliament-office might 
 be dispensed with. 
 
 The Earl of DARLINGTON then 
 withdrew his motion. 
 
 The House being callfed over Coun- 
 sel were introduced. 
 
 i:ROSS EXAMINATION OF THE- 
 ODORE MAJOCHI (Continued.) 
 
 Do you recollect a German Baron 
 visiting the Queen at Naples? — Non 
 mi ricdrdo. 
 
 Po you recollect a German Baron 
 visiting the Queen at Genoa while she 
 was on her way from Naples to Milan ? 
 • — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Did any German Baron visit the 
 Princess at Villa Villani, at any time 
 during her residence there ? — I i*ecol- 
 lect a Baron came, but I thought he 
 was a Russian. 
 
 Do you recollect whether he was the 
 same person spoken of yesterday ? No. 
 
 Was his name Omteda or Ompteda, 
 or something like that? — Questo non 
 mi ricordo. 
 
 Was it Rampdor ? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Do you recollect this Baron, by 
 whatever name he might be called, 
 sleeping more than once at Villa Vil- 
 lani? — Once I remember, not more. 
 
 Had he not a servant who used to 
 live with the other servants ot the 
 house ? — I recollect that he had a ser- 
 vant, but whether he lived with the 
 other servants or not, X do not remem- 
 ber. 
 
 Was there not a room called the Ba- 
 ron's, giving it bis extravagant name, 
 whatever that was? — Questo non mi 
 ricordo. 
 
 • Do you recollect a thiitider-stoim 
 oceurring on the lake at Como, by 
 which the company were all wtt? — 
 Questo non mi ricordo. 
 
 You have said that in the house at 
 Naples all the rest of the family ex- 
 cept Bergami, slept in another part of 
 the house than that in which tho Prii>- 
 cess slept? — Non mi ricordo \flietker 
 the other part of the family liv^d 
 apart. 
 
 Do you now mean to say that the 
 rest of the family, Bergami excepted, 
 did not sleep in a separate part of tlie 
 house from the Princess? — I remem- 
 ber the position of the l>eds of li^ 
 Royal Highness and Bergami, but ij^ot 
 the rest of the family. 
 
 Then you do not recollect, and witt 
 not now swear, that the rest of the fa- 
 mily did sleep apart from the Princess? 
 — Questo non mi ricordo^ I remember 
 well where Bergami and her Royat 
 Highness slept, but as to the r^st of 
 the iamiiy I do not remember. 
 
 In the answer you gave the day l>e- 
 fore yesterday to the question w^hotb<ap 
 the bedrooms of the other people of the 
 Princess's suite were not distant fi%m 
 tlioseof the Princess and Bergami, dil 
 you or did you not say that they w«iie 
 separate and at a distance? — The wit- 
 ness hesitated, and when the questioa 
 had been repeated to him several 
 times, he said he remembered only 
 the position of the beds of her Royal 
 Highness and Bergamu 
 
 Was not this question put to yoB the 
 day before yesterday — 3»id the other 
 part of the Princess's family sleep ia 
 the same part of the house at Napks 
 that she and Bergami slept in, or at a 
 distance? — It is true, that quesuon was 
 put. 
 
 Did you not answer that qnestioa 
 by saying they were separated? — I 
 said they were separated, but I meant 
 they were so situated as uot to comnizi- 
 nicate together. 
 
 Did you mean thereby that, there 
 was no way for a person to pass fr<^ni 
 the room of her Royal Highness to the 
 rooms of the rest of her suite, with&iA 
 going through Bergami's ? 
 
 This question was followed by soH>e 
 discussion between the Counsel. 
 
 The SOLICITOR GENERAL saii 
 the first answer given by witness was, 
 that the rooms were separate. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM kriew that per- 
 fectly well, and he had so stated if- 
 His learned friend seemed to tritimjA 
 in a mare's ne^t which he thought he 
 had found. 
 
 After some further observations, ^ 
 the course of which Mr. Bioii^h«m 
 
56 
 
 THIAIi OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 read the answer which had been given 
 by the witness. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR said 
 that the proper way was not to tell the 
 witness what answer had been given, 
 but to put a question upon it. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said he had put 
 the question in that way. He had 
 8tated that the word interpreted was 
 " separated ;" but he had five or six 
 witnesses whom be could call, if ne- 
 cessary, to prove that Majochi did not 
 say " separata " but " lontano" which 
 means at a distance. He was, however, 
 perfectly satisfied to take ** separato." 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL ob- 
 jected to this course, as an interpreter 
 had been swern, and given his interpre- 
 tation. If his^lrarned friend had wished 
 to take any objection to the translation 
 he apprehended he was bound to do 
 so at the time, and before that transla- 
 tion was recorded. His learned friend 
 was not warranted in making it the 
 subject of observation now. 
 
 Lord REDESDALE thought that 
 some difficulty arose from the inter- 
 preter finding it necessary to repeat 
 Mr. Brougham's questions in various 
 ways to the witness, and suggested 
 that the question, as taken down by 
 the short-hand writer, should be read 
 to the witness, and that the interpreter 
 should then translate his answer lite- 
 rally. 
 
 Here Mr. GURNEY read from his 
 notes the question put the day before 
 yesterday, respecting the situation of 
 the bed-rooms at Naples. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.~Do you mean 
 to. repeat that there was no way of 
 going from the Princess's room to the 
 rooms of ihe rest of the suite, except 
 through Bergami's ? — What I remem- 
 ber is, that there was a way to Berga- 
 mi's room : I have seen no otlier pas- 
 sage. 
 
 Do you mean to say that there was 
 not any other -way of going from her 
 Royal Highness's apartment to the 
 rooms of the rest of the family ? — I 
 have seen no other passage. 
 
 No other passage than what? — I have 
 not seen any other passage except that 
 which went to Bergami's room. 
 
 Do you know where the rest of the 
 family slept ? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Will you swear that the rooms of 
 
 Jerouimus, William Austin, and Dr. 
 
 Holland, were not close to that of her 
 
 Royal Highness?— Questo noti mi ri- 
 
 ordo. 
 
 When you went fVom Vienna to 
 Milan with your father, whore did yon 
 lodge at Milan? — At home : at my own 
 house. 
 
 How did you support yourself? — 
 On my own money. 
 
 How long did your money last? — 
 Non mi vlcordo. 
 
 Did any body give you money? — 
 Questo non mi ricordo. 
 
 Did any body give you money at 
 Milan ? — When I left Vienna 1 receiv-^ 
 ed money ; at Milan none : for I must"^ 
 speak clear. 
 
 Did any body give you money at 
 Milan ? — Ricordo di no, was the wit- 
 ness's answer. 
 
 MR. BROUGH4^M said, that, in 
 fairness to the witness, this answer 
 must not be taken in the sense of his 
 non mi ricerdo ; it meant, literally, I 
 recollect not — by which he meant to 
 say that nobody did give him money at 
 Milan. 
 
 How long did you remain at Milan? 
 — I do not recollect precisely ; be- 
 tween 18 and 20 days. 
 
 When you returned to Vienna, did 
 you not pay the Vetturino yourself? — 
 Yes, I did pay him myself. 
 
 Who gave you the money at Vienna ?^ . 
 — Colonel Brown. * -^ 
 
 Who gave yon money at Vienna to 
 go to Milan ?— My father paid for ray 
 journey. Any thing I do not recollect 
 but xhat my father paid for me; 
 
 Who gave you money before you set^ 
 out for Milan ? 
 
 The SOLICITOR- GENERAL ob- 
 jected to this question. His learned 
 friend assumed that some person had 
 given the witness money. 
 
 I\Ir. BROUGHAM observed, that 
 it appeared from his former examina- 
 tion, he had received money, and re- 
 ferred to the notes. 
 
 Mr. GURNEY read the questions 
 and answers, in which it was admitted 
 by the witness tliat he had received 
 money at Vienna. 
 
 Who gave you the money at Vienna 
 when you left that city for Milan r — 
 For the journey my father paid. No- 
 body gave me money. My father paid, 
 and I remem.ber no one gave me 
 money. 
 
 At Milan did nobody give you mo- 
 ney ? — Nobody gave rac money when I 
 arrived at Milan. 
 
 W^hile you remained at Milan did 
 nobody give you money ? — Ricordo di 
 no, — mi ricordo che non, — non ^o ! 
 
CROSS EXAMINATIOIf OP THEODORE MAJOCIIT. 
 
 57 
 
 ytu no que si ! non mi ricordo. I remem- 
 ber-that there did not. I don't know. 
 • — Rather no than yes. — I don't remem- 
 ber. 
 
 \\\e Earl of ROSEBERRYsaid that 
 it was most essential that the house 
 should understand what the meaning of 
 ricnrdo di no was ; whether it was that 
 the witness did not remember a certain 
 event, or that he remembered that no 
 such tliin2 occurred. 
 
 Lord LONGFORD begged that the 
 List answer given by the witness should 
 be repeated to him by the interpreter, 
 frem the short hand writer's notes. 
 
 Tlie Marquis of LANSDOWN 
 thought the better course would be 
 for their lordships to leave the ques- 
 tions as they stood upon the cross-exa- 
 mination; and afterwards when ihe 
 regular time came for their scrutiny, to 
 put such questions as they pleased. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR said, 
 the usual practice was, for the counsel 
 in support of a measure to examine 
 firat, then the counsel at the other side 
 to cross-examine ; the former again to 
 re-examine, and finally their lordships. 
 
 Lord LONGFORD explained that 
 the only reason he wished the answer 
 read to the witness was, to apprize him 
 of what he had stated, and see whether 
 he understood his expression accurate- 
 ly*. The witness was, of course, the 
 only person present who knew nothing 
 of the particulars of whatever discus 
 sion took place among their lordships 
 in a language which he did not under- 
 sttind. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM stated, that he 
 and the learned counsel who acted with 
 him were most anxious to attend scru- 
 pttlously to the rules and practice as 
 laid down and acted upon in courts of 
 law. These rules and practices had 
 been with his usual accuracy laid 
 down by the Lord-Chancellor : and he 
 hoped he might be permitted to implore 
 their lordships to suffer the expressions 
 used by the witness to stand as they 
 were disclosed upon the cross-exami- 
 nation. When the counsel at both 
 sides were done, it would, of course, be 
 open to them to elicit any explanation 
 they thought proper. 
 
 (Cries of " Go on."] 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR.— Mr. 
 Brougham proceed with your cross- 
 examination. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.— My lords, I 
 have done with the witness. I have 
 BO further questions to ask hira. In a 
 
 8 
 
 common case I should certainly be sa- 
 tisfied with this examination. In this 
 case I have certainly no reason to ask 
 him a single question further. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL then 
 connnenced the re-examination of the 
 v\itness. 
 
 Will you ask the witness whether his 
 father conducted him from Germany 
 to Milan, for the purpose of being exa- 
 mined touching the affairs of the 
 Queen ? 
 
 Mr. RROUGHAM.—I object to 
 that mode of putting the question. 
 Why not ask him what brought hira to 
 Milan ? 
 
 The SOLICITOR.GENERAL.-^ 
 Did your father tell you, on the way 
 from Germany to Milan, the object of 
 your journey? — Yes. 
 
 Had you any other "business at Mi<- 
 lan but that which he mentioned to 
 you ? — No. 
 
 After being at Milan from Germany, 
 where did you go ? — To Vienna. 
 
 Did you receive any money before 
 you undertook your first journey to 
 Milan ? — I did before I set out. 
 
 For what purpose did you receive 
 that money ? — To travel. 
 
 (Several lords here said, " His words 
 are to journey.'^— The interpreter ob- 
 served, " To journey or to travel.") 
 
 Did you receive any other money 
 before that for your journey ? — Non mi 
 ricordo. 
 
 What do you mean now, when yon 
 say nonmi ricordo^ — ^I don't remember. 
 (This question was put by the desire of 
 several noble lords.) 
 
 When I say non mi ricordo, now I 
 mean I have it not in my head to have 
 received such money, for if I had, I 
 could say " Yes;" but I do not recol- 
 lect it now. 
 
 Lord GRI:NVILLE suggested that 
 the interpreters should correct each 
 other. 
 
 The Earl of LAUDERDALE said, 
 that the interpreter for the Queen 
 ought to be apprized te correct the 
 translation of the other interpreter. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR.— Let 
 her Majesty's interpreter, whenever he 
 differs respecting the translation of an 
 answer given by the witness, state that 
 difference at the time, and before the 
 answer is admitted. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL.— 
 The witness has told us that he was at 
 Vienna, after being at INIilan. Who 
 sent him ttiere? — Colonel Brown. 
 
5S 
 
 ^aiAL QF THE QUEEN. 
 
 Who sent you to London?— I cannot 
 lay, for a person came to tell me I was 
 to come here ; and I came. 
 
 Did that person come with you? — 
 That person brought me to London. 
 
 After you arrived here, were yon 
 s^pnt any where else? — Yes, over to 
 Holland. 
 
 Did that same person accompany 
 you to Holland? — Yes, I went over 
 with him. 
 
 Did you Remain in Holland with the 
 other witnesses? — I did. 
 
 At this time, half-past 11 o'clock, 
 her Majesty attended by Lady Ann 
 Hamilton, entered the house, and took 
 lier usual seat in front of the bar. The 
 peers rose from their seats as her 
 Majesty approached hers, and the 
 Queen made her obeisance in return 
 for this mark of respect. Her Majesty 
 looked remarkably well, and surveyed 
 the witness with attention. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM submitted to his 
 learned friend whether any thing in 
 ills cross-examination justified this 
 close re-examination respecting where 
 the witness was in Holland, how he 
 came from thence to England, and 
 who accompanied him. 
 
 The SOLICITOR GENERAL re- 
 peated, that the object of his learned 
 friend's cross-examination was with 
 the palpable view of discrediting the 
 conauct of the witness. He thought 
 he had, therefore, a right to examine 
 the witness so as to place his conduct 
 in a clear point of view. He was jus- 
 tified in taking this course, both on 
 the rules of law and of common sense, 
 and had a right tofollow the witness 
 in his joumies backwards and for- 
 wards up to the moment he found him 
 here. 
 
 Tlie LORD-CHANCELLOR was 
 pf opinion the Solicitor-General had a 
 right to pursue his re-examination. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said, that he 
 , had objected more on account of re- 
 gularity than upon any importance 
 which he attached to the mode of re- 
 examination about to be pursued by 
 his learned friend. He again said he 
 had not put a single question to this 
 witness respecting his journies, save 
 the journey from Vienna to Milan and 
 baiik again. He had said nut one 
 word about his going to or coming 
 from Holland. He certainly had ex- 
 amined him touching what happened 
 in London. If it were in this way open 
 to a counsel, merely because one ques- 
 
 tion was asked respecting a part of a 
 witness's journey, to go through the 
 whole of that journey in a re-exami- 
 nation, then there would be no end to 
 a waste of time — the whole of a wit- 
 ness's birth, parentage, and charac- 
 ter. 
 
 After a few words from the Earl of 
 LIVERPOOL, which were not dis- 
 tinctly heard below the bar, 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR said, 
 that whatever difference there might 
 or might not be on the rules of evidence 
 in the courts below, or the* forms of 
 parliamentary proceedings, certainly 
 the person who had the honour of now- 
 addressing their lordships was strongly 
 influenced by his judgment to say, that 
 the nearer their lordships followed the 
 rules adopted by the courts below, the 
 better. When he conjured them, there- 
 fore, to adhere to the rules of the courts 
 below, be was ready upon his solemn 
 honour to give his opinion — an opinion 
 which, he believed, had the concur- 
 rence of the judges near hiin — that this 
 inquiry of the Solicitor-General ought 
 to go on. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL re- 
 sumed. — Did you return with the same 
 persons with whom you went out to 
 Holland?— No. 
 
 How then? — Some of those I went 
 out with reftiained in Holland. They 
 did not all come back with me. 
 
 Did you come in a vessel up to Lon- 
 don ? — Yes. 
 
 Did you land with the same person 
 who carried you out in the neighbour- 
 hood of this place? — Yes. 
 
 Did you remain in that same place 
 until you were brought where you now 
 stand ? — Yes. 
 
 Do the other witnesses remain in 
 that place, and dine together? — Yes. 
 
 On board the polacre, when the tent 
 was raised, were the females Brunet 
 and Dunioiit on board ? — Non mi ri- 
 cordo. (I don't remember.) 
 
 Do you know the females I allude 
 to?— Yes. 
 
 Doyou knowDumont? — Yes. 
 Was she in tliat voyage ? — Yes, 
 Did you see her from time to time ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 Was the sleeping-plate of the women 
 below the deck ? 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM objected to this 
 question, and said it would be moi"« 
 regular to ask where the sleeping- 
 place of the female** was. 
 The SOLICITOR. GENERAL.— 
 
CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THEODORE MAJOCIII. 
 
 59 
 
 Was the slecpiup^-placc of the females 
 ahovc or below (look? 
 
 rhe LORD CHANCFXLOR.- It 
 would be extremely desirable if gen- 
 tlemen at both sides would put their 
 questions more in the form of interro- 
 gatories than otherwise. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said he was al- 
 ways anxious to shape his questions in 
 that form; it was evident that he could 
 not always do so in a cross-examina- 
 
 'Xhe SOLICITOR -GENERAL.— 
 
 Was Mademoiselle Brunet there with 
 \ou during the whole of the voyage? — 
 Yes. 
 
 You have told us of a corridor at the 
 Villa d'Este, after your return from the 
 Grecian voyage, next the Princess's 
 apartment ; was the door at the end of 
 that apartment? — Yes. 
 
 When that door was shut, was there 
 any other way of going to the Prin- 
 cess apartment? 
 
 The witness not appearing at first to 
 comprehend the question, it was re- 
 peated tb him in this form : — 
 
 When that door was shut, did it pre- 
 Tent any body going from the bed-room 
 of Bergami to that of her Royal High- 
 ness? — When that door was shut, as 
 far as I can recollect, there was ano- 
 ther passage from Bergami's room to 
 that of her Royal Highness. 
 
 With respect to the bed-room occu- 
 pied by Bergami at Naples, he has told 
 us there was a cabinet in which he 
 slept himself. Was there any door 
 opening between Bergami's and the 
 Queen's apartments, except that in the 
 cabinet? — There was another door 
 communicating with the cabinet. 
 
 The witness then further explained 
 —that as you enter the room of Ber- 
 gami you turn round on your left first, 
 and then cross the room in whfch her 
 Royal Highness dined ; on the left of 
 that there wa» a door to Bergami's 
 apartment. 
 
 Was it near the dining-room in which 
 tlie Princess and her suite dined? — 
 Yes, there was a small door there. 
 
 How long did you remain in the ser- 
 vice of the Princess? — Three years. 
 
 Were you dismissed her Royal High- 
 ness's service, or did you go away of 
 your own aceord? — I first asked for 
 my dismission at Rome; then I ap- 
 plied to Bergami twice for it at Pesaro. 
 Bergami did not grant it to me until 
 , the second time. 
 
 When you left the Princcsi's service, 
 
 did you receive any form of discfwrge, 
 or certificate of good conduct, from 
 her Royal Highness ? — Yes; I have it : 
 not in her Royal Highn«ss's hand- writ- 
 ing, but with her »eal. Schiavini wrote 
 the paper. 
 
 Have you it aj^out you ? — Yes ; heT« 
 it is. 
 
 The witness put his hand in his 
 pocket, took out some papers, and 
 opened one, which was of the size of 
 an ordinary sheet of paper ; a small 
 red seal was attached to it. He then 
 repeated " here it is," holding it up at 
 arms' length, and moving it round so 
 as to exhibit it to the whole house. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL was 
 in the act of handing the paper to the 
 interpreter, whom he desired to trans- 
 late it, when 
 
 The Marquis of BUCKINGHAM 
 rose, and said, that it would be quite 
 impossible for their lordships to un- 
 derstand the nature of the evidence 
 already given, with accuracy, unless 
 they were furnished by the counsel at 
 both sides with some plan or plans of 
 the apartments to which the evidence 
 referred. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 The LORD - CHANCELLOR.— 
 The better way would be for the coun- 
 sel at each side to agree upon one plan 
 for the information of your lordships. 
 And if they do concur in delivering in 
 such a plan, let it have no denomina-^ 
 tion of rooms ; but let the apartments 
 be marked 1, 2, 3, or 4: let there be 
 no other exhibition of particular de- 
 scription except what is furnished by 
 evidence. The pl^n should be pro- 
 duced to-morrow morning. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL thought 
 the sooner it was produced the better. 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said 
 that he had a plan of the principal 
 rooms ready, but it was open to the 
 Lord Chancellor's exhibition as to the 
 description of the apartments. One, 
 merely numerically described, could 
 however be put in to-morrow morn- 
 ing, which he had every reason to be- 
 lieve would be found properly accu- 
 rate. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said that he felt 
 great difficulty indeed in acceding to 
 the production of a plan in this stage 
 of the proceeding. When their lord- 
 ships recollected that these plans must 
 necessarily embrace descriptions of 
 ships, palaces, houses, inns, and other 
 places, in so many countries and parts 
 of Europe, they must at ouce be struck 
 
60 
 
 TIIIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 with the difficulty of compliance. The 
 plans, even with the numerical ar- 
 rangement, might lead to serious in- 
 justice. He r.jost, indeed, he an un- 
 common franier of a plan, who could 
 so arrange it as that it would not at 
 once furnish the witnesses with the re- 
 lative position of all the rooms they 
 liad to describe, and at once enable 
 them to reconcile their evidence to the 
 actual description. He begged to ap- 
 prize their lordships that he meant to 
 regulate his evidence principally, or 
 at least a great deal, upon the descrip- 
 tion of the houses given by the wit- 
 nesses at the other side. Now, how 
 could he do this with effect, if he were 
 obliged now, at the outset, to produce 
 a full plan? The publication of the 
 evidence, morning after morning, was 
 not calculated to promote the justice 
 of the case ; but from the circumstance 
 of so many of the witnesses being fo- 
 reigners, the language of that publica- 
 tion was nat understood by them, and 
 consequently full information of what 
 was passing was not received in such 
 a quarter. But much more informa- 
 tion would be given by a plan. Any 
 man, whether he understood English 
 or not, if he had eyes, must under- 
 stand a plan. While the publication 
 vent on, and the language was not un- 
 derstood, the witnesses were nothing 
 the wiser, but a plan at once put them 
 in possession of all. There was an 
 end at once then to " non mi ricordo,'' 
 (a laugh) ; that vanished at once, and 
 the tutelary saint of the plan settled 
 everything. If the plan were indeed 
 ordered to be drawn up from the de- 
 scription of the evidence as already 
 given before their lordships, then he 
 could have no objection to such an ar- 
 rangement ; but he could never con- 
 ■fient to the universal circulation of 
 such a plan as that called for in the 
 present stage of their proceedings. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCFXLOR.— No 
 plan can be delivered in until it is 
 proved to be accurately correct. Their 
 lordships had a right to the production 
 of such evidence as they may require 
 for the elucidation of the cases. The 
 better way would certainly be for the 
 counsel at both sides to agree to a 
 plan. If this convenience cannot be 
 accomplished, then the Solicitor-Ge- 
 neral can put in his plan and prove its 
 accuracy. That some correct plan 
 should be produced is, I think, actually 
 necessary at both sides for the justice 
 pf tbe pase. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL pro- 
 mised to produce one to-morrow moin- 
 ing, and was then proceeding to call 
 upon the interpreter to translate the 
 paper which the witness displayed in 
 his hand, when 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM again interiJOsed 
 and said, that he saw no reason why 
 this paper should be produced in evi- 
 dence. He had never said that tlie 
 witness was dismissed from the Prin- 
 cess. He had never impeached his 
 competency to fill his place as a ser- 
 vant. He was indeed ready to admit 
 that he was kept because he was found 
 to be a good travelling servant. Let 
 him have this character up to the latest 
 moment he was in the Princess's ser- 
 vice. 
 
 The SOLICITOR GENERAL was 
 of opinion, that, so far from his learned 
 friend having made any such admission 
 before, the whole object of his cross- 
 examination had been to cast imputa- 
 tion upon the witness's character as a 
 servant. Did he not begin by im- 
 peaching the manner in which he left 
 the service of General Pino, about 
 some horse? Did he not afterwards 
 attempt to stigmatize him as one of a 
 gang of some persons who had clan^ 
 destinely got into the house? And 
 did he not afterwards, for the purpose 
 of creating an unfavorable impression 
 against him, attempt to shew that he 
 had applied for permission to return to 
 his place, but was not admitted? In- 
 dependent c*' these tTiree facts, the 
 whole course of his cross-examination 
 had the same tendency. It was there- 
 fore but justice to the witness to have 
 his general character set right. He 
 therefore, in furtherance of that pur- 
 pose, now oflFered the evidence of one 
 of the parties interested in this case, 
 to show in what light the witness's cha-- 
 racter was held by that party. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM repeated, that 
 he had never impeached the witness's 
 general character as » servant, nor had 
 he ever denied that he had voluntarily 
 left the service of the Princess. The 
 first observation he had made referred 
 merely to the witness's leaving General 
 Pino. If his learned friend confined 
 his re-examination to setting that point 
 right, then all was well. He never 
 said that the Princess had dismissed 
 the witness. Besides, this paper was 
 not in the hand-writing of her Royal 
 Highness. The witness himself said it 
 was written by Schiavini. 
 Tbe SOLICITOR-GENERAL ob- 
 
CROSS EXAMINATION OF THEODORE MAJOCIII. 
 
 61 
 
 served lie was the major-domo of the 
 household. 
 
 Mr. liROUGHAM — P.ut it does 
 not follow that all he writes is, there- 
 fore true. There is no evidence yet 
 to give him this authentic power of 
 acting for her Royal Highness. As to 
 the seal, the Princess's soal might have 
 laid on the dressing-room or dining- 
 romn table, and been affixed by any 
 body to any instrument. How did 
 that prove it the act of her Royal 
 Highness? 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR said 
 there were two questions involved in 
 the point at issue. The first is, whe- 
 ther this is the act of the illustrious 
 person whose name has been mention- 
 ed? The other question is, whether, 
 if the paper be authentic, it is legally 
 admissible as evidence before your 
 lordships ? On the latter point, he was 
 of opinion, no doubt could be enter- 
 tained. But, even before that doubt 
 could be entertained, the person whose 
 seal is attached to the paper must be 
 proved to be present, or consenting to 
 the application of the seal to the in- 
 strument. 
 
 The SOLICITOR- GENERAL.— 
 Do you remember Schiavini?— -I do. 
 
 What was his situation in the Prin- 
 cess's household? — He was equerry or 
 mareschai. 
 
 What influence had he over the ser- 
 vants ? — He had a principal command. 
 
 Had he the general management of 
 the servants ? — He had a command. 
 
 Where was her Royal Highness when 
 Schiavini gave you that paper? 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM repeated his ob- 
 jection to questions being put upon 
 this paper until it was capable of being 
 put in evidence. Let it first be brought 
 home to her Royal Highness. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR.— If 
 the paper can be proved to have been 
 framed and delivered in the presence 
 of her Royal Highness, then prove 
 that fact, and let it be given in as evi- 
 dence. 
 
 The witness replied : — I don't know ; 
 it was impossible forme to know which 
 of the two commanded. There was 
 Bergami, he commanded ; there was 
 Schiavini, he commanded ; both Schia- 
 vini and Bergami came and comnrmnd- 
 ed. It is impossible for me to know 
 which was the superior; -they both 
 came. 
 
 My question i.? this, who was, at 
 that time, the immediate superior of 
 
 the servants of the house; I mean, at 
 the time you left that service ? — Non 
 mi ricordo. 
 
 I wish to know whether you applied 
 to Schiavini to obtain this pap( r? 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM objected to this 
 question. He contended it was not al- 
 lowable, the paper itself not being evi- 
 dence. 
 
 The LORD -CHANCELLOR re- 
 marked, that what was wanted was an 
 answer almost to his (Mr. Brougham's) 
 own question ; fifty applications had 
 been made for this purpose, and they 
 wore all equally ineffectual. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL.—! 
 am afraid, my lord, that I cannot show 
 that this was done by the immediate 
 authoiity of her Royal Highness. 
 
 The LORD -CHANCELLOR,— It 
 would lead to nothing unless it could 
 be shown that the same individual had 
 the same authority with all the other 
 servants. 
 
 The SOLICITOR -GENERAL.— 
 At present, my lord, I will not tender 
 this question to the witness. I have 
 no further questions to put to him. 
 
 EXAMINATION BY THE LORDS. 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR.— 
 
 Has any noble Lord any question to 
 ask of the witness at the bar ? 
 
 A Noble LORD then said, You have 
 stated that upon the voyage from Jaffa 
 to Terracina there were tents erected 
 upon the deck of the Polacre ; what 
 sort of weather was it? — Non mi rir 
 cordo. (A laugh.) 
 
 LORD ELLENBOROUGH.— How 
 was her Ro^al Highness dressed when 
 she passed through the cabinetto into 
 Bergami's room at Naples? — Non mt 
 ricordo. 
 
 EARL GREY.— Did you see her 
 distinctly ®n that occasion ? — ^Yes. 
 
 Does not the witness know how she 
 was dressed ? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 Was witness himself in bed? — Yes. 
 
 I imderstood witness to say, that her 
 Royal Highness went through the ca- 
 bipetto where he was ? — ^Yes. 
 
 Did he pretend to be asleep ? — As I 
 sleep now. (A laugh.) 
 
 My question distinctly was. Did he 
 pretend to be asleep? — Yes, I did pre- 
 tend to be so : I shut my eyes. 
 
 Could you see in that situation ? — 
 No one can see if he shuts his eyes. 
 
 Did you shut them just enough to 
 make her Royal Highness think yon 
 were asleep, but not enough to prevent 
 your seeing? — Y^s, J did sp. 
 
6g 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 YoH stated that you left General 
 Pino'^ serviee during the blockade of 
 Mantua? — Not after the blockade, but 
 before the closing or shutting up of the 
 gates of Mantua. * 
 
 Did you leave General Pino's service 
 voluntarily, or were you dismissed ? — 
 I remember to have asked my dismis- 
 sion from the Adjutant Lunardi ; and 
 be told me he would not grant my dis- 
 charge until Gqneral Pino should have 
 returned from Milan. 
 
 What did the witness do during this 
 interval until General Pino had return- 
 ed ? — I continued to remain in service. 
 
 Did you remain there until the re- 
 turn of General Pino? — Yes. 
 
 Upon his return did General Pino 
 give you your dismissal? — The Adju- 
 tant came and told me, you are now at 
 liberty. 
 
 Did you get a certificate of service 
 from General Pino? — No, because I 
 really did not wish for it. 
 
 Where did you go immediately from 
 the service of General Pino ? — To Mi- 
 lan to my family. 
 
 How long did you stay at Milan ? — I 
 do not remember what time. 
 
 Did yoH remain out of service while 
 ypu were at Milan? — Out of service. 
 
 How were you employed during that 
 time ?— I get some money by buying 
 and selling horses. 
 
 When did you leave Milan?— N^n 
 mi ricordo. 
 
 Where did you go to from Milan ? — 
 To Vienna, during the time of the 
 Congresj. 
 
 How did you go to Vienna? — I had 
 a horse ; I bought my own ; and I, 
 with two of my companions, put some 
 money together, and we bought a ca- 
 retta^ (a species of small cart) in which 
 ve all travelled together. 
 
 What was your object in going to 
 Vienna? — ^To see where I could find 
 «xme place to get some bread j some 
 subsistence. 
 
 ( Here Lord ERSKINE rose to make 
 some observations, but they were 
 whmly inaudible, from the low tone of 
 voice in which his lordship spoke, be- 
 low the bar. The Lord-Chancellor 
 desired the short-hand writer to refer 
 to his notes, from which he read an 
 extract relative to the voyage from 
 JaflPa to Terracina.) 
 
 A Peer from tlie gallery, on the mi- 
 nisterial side, observed, that the three 
 voyages to which the noble lord (Ers- 
 kine; had alluded did not include that 
 from Jafi"a to Terracina; but \vere 
 
 these, as he understood them^ — the 
 voyage from Augnsra to Tunis ; that 
 from Tunis to Constantinople; and that 
 from Constantinople to Palestine. 
 
 Examined by Lord DARNLEY.-— 
 You have stated that Bergami was ia 
 the. habit of dining with her Royal 
 Highness at Genoa. Did he, ever after, 
 while you continued to reside there, 
 continue to dine with her ? — Always, as 
 far as I recollect. 
 
 You have also stated, that Lady 
 Charlotte Campbell joined her Royal 
 Highness at Genoa, and remained with 
 her some time after her arrival at Mu 
 Ian. I wish to ask , if it ever happened 
 tliat Lady Charlotte Campbell dined at 
 the same table with Bergami ? Non mi 
 ricordo. 
 
 The Marquis of BUCKINGHAM. 
 —The witness has stated that on board 
 the polacre, in which her Royal High- 
 ness sailed from Jaffa to Terracina, 
 there was a cabinetto, in which there 
 was a bath ?— I did. 
 
 Did the witness see Bergami and the 
 Princess enter the cabinetto together^ 
 in which the bath was prepared?— 
 Yes. 
 
 Witness has stated that he handed 
 buckets or pails of water for the bath, 
 and that Bergami received them? — I 
 carried two pails of water to the door 
 of the bath, and Bergami came out and 
 took one of them. Whether it was the 
 hot or the cold water, I don't know. 
 
 Did you see the Princess, when Ber- 
 gami took the pails from you? — No, 
 because she was within. At the same 
 time I did not see her. 
 
 I wish to know whether there was a 
 cabinetto within the dining-room, be- 
 sides that which was provided for the 
 bath? — I do not remember whether 
 there was another cabinetto or no. 
 
 Let the evidence be referred to up- 
 on the notes at the short-hand writer, 
 in order to see whether witness did not 
 say that there was another cabinetto. ' 
 
 (The LORP-CHANCELLOR di- 
 rected the short-hand writer to refer 
 to that part of his notes containing the 
 evidence which the reader will find 
 in yesterday's proceedings in the 
 Lords.) .^; 
 
 Was there another small room within j.^ 
 the dining-room besides that destined 
 for the bath ? — Non mi ricordo. 
 
 When you observed the Princess and 
 Bergami to go into the place destined 
 for the bath, did you see the Countess 
 of Oldi?— I did not see her. 
 
 Did you see any of the fejnale attend- 
 
CROSS EXAMIUATION OF THEODORE MAJOCHI. 
 
 63 
 
 ftBtt of the Princess ? — I did not tee 
 any of them. 
 
 Did you see any of the female attend- 
 ants of the Princess above, upon the 
 deck, when you were dismissed from 
 below ?— I did not see anv of them. 
 
 The Earl of CAKN ARVON.— 1 wish 
 the witness to say whether the tent on 
 board the polacre was a double one or 
 no? — I do not remember whether there 
 were one or two ; but I know well that 
 in that tent her Royal Highness was. 
 
 Did this tent cover the whole deck, 
 or was there room to pass upon the 
 side of it ? — There was room for peo- 
 ple to pass. 
 
 Do you know whether any persons 
 slept in that place? — I do not remem- 
 ber ; I have not seen any persons. 
 
 Marquis of BUCKINGHAM.— At 
 what time of day was this bath taken 
 which was prepared by Bergami on 
 board the polacre, before or after din- 
 ner? — About noon; some time before 
 noon. 
 
 Was he dressed or undressed when 
 he received the buckets of water from 
 you, at the door? — -He was dressed. 
 
 Viscount FALMOUTH.— At Villa 
 Villani, the witness states he remem- 
 bers the Princess to have given a blue 
 silk gown to Bergami. I wish him to 
 be asked how he knows that the Prin- 
 cess gave Bergami that blue silk gown? 
 — Beeause I saw it afterwards upon the 
 back of Bergami. (A laugh.) 
 
 That is no answer to my question. 
 It is, *'Does the witness remember 
 a blue silk gown which he states 
 the Princess to have given to Berga- 
 mi ?" — The answer is " Yes :" which 
 implies, of course, that he does remem- 
 ber her Royal Highness's giving 
 it. I wish to learn how he knows that 
 she did give that gown to Bergami? — 
 Because Bergami told me that her 
 Koyal Highness had given him that 
 •dress. Bergami himself told me. 
 
 The Earl of OXFORD.— Witness 
 has said that he saw Bergami and the 
 Princess in the cabinetto on board the 
 polacre. When there, did he see them 
 in that cabinetto ? — When the bath was 
 ready, he went up stairs : he took her 
 Royal Highness, and brought her down 
 into the room, and shut the dour. 
 
 Lord DUNCAN.— When the witness 
 A% asked "whether her Royal Highness 
 was positively in the bath or not, he 
 •ays he does not know : when he is 
 asked whether any other persons were 
 there besid«^ herself apd Bergami, he 
 
 says there were not. (Cries of " No, 
 no.") At any rate he says he did not 
 see her there. I wish to ask him this 
 question : he swears; then, that none 
 of her female attendants were at that 
 moment in the bath-room with her 
 Royal Highness? — This I can swear: 
 that I saw none of them in the bath- 
 room with her Royal Highness. 
 
 Was it to the door of the cabinetto, 
 or to tlie door at the .outside of the 
 apartment, that he took the water? 
 Let the witness swear which — whether 
 to the outside door, or to the door of 
 the inner room? — I was at the door 
 when Bergami went up stairs to tell 
 her Royal Highness that the bath was 
 ready; when he came down, Bergami 
 told me, " beat the door ; for, if there 
 be any need of water, you shall give it 
 me.*' 
 
 At which door? Whether at the ontcr 
 or inner door? — At the inner door of 
 the bath — the inner bath. 
 
 Earl GREY.— Could the witness, 
 from the position in which he stood, see 
 every body that was in the bath-room? 
 — 'When it was open, I could ; when it 
 was shut, I could not. 
 
 Will he swear that there was no- 
 body in that room but the Princess and 
 Bergami ? — I can swear, and do swear, 
 that no other persons but Bergami and 
 her Royal Highness came into that 
 room, because I put myself at the door. 
 That is no answer to my question. 
 [The question and answer were her^ 
 read again.] Does the witness mean 
 to say that nobody else entered there ; 
 because there is a material difference 
 between the two. Does he mean that 
 there was nobody else in the room, or 
 that nobody else could be in the room 
 without his seeing them? — I saw no 
 other persons but her Royal Highness 
 and Bergami. 
 
 That is still no distinct answer. Was 
 it possible for any other person to be 
 in that room without your seeing him? 
 — No, that could not be ; for, iftheie 
 had been another person there, I must 
 have seen that person. 
 
 Lord AUCKLAND.— Did the wit- 
 ness remain in the outer room during 
 the time that the Princess and Ber- 
 gami were in the inner one? — I re* 
 raained at the door all that time. 
 
 TheLORD-CHANCELLOR.— Tlie 
 witness yesterday stated, on being 
 asked where the bath was prepared, 
 that he prepared it in the cabin of her 
 Royal Highness. He was then asked 
 
64; 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 who assisted her to the bath. He nays, 
 that he first carried the water into the 
 bath, and then called Bergami, who 
 came down and put his hand into the 
 bath to try the temperature of the wa- 
 ter ; that Bergami then went up stairs 
 and conducted her Koyal Highness 
 down, after which the door was shut; 
 and then Bergami and her Royal High- 
 ness remained alone in the cabinetto 
 together. Now I wish him to be asked, 
 whether he was in the cabin while Ber- 
 gami went up to bring her Royal High- 
 ness down? and, while he was so in the 
 cabin, at the time the door was shut, 
 any one entered the cabinetto but her 
 Royal Highness and Bergami. 
 
 [The interpreter here translated to 
 the witness, from the short-hand wri- 
 ter's notes, the part of his evidence 
 referred to, together with his lordship's 
 questions ; but it seemed impossible 
 to render himself intelligible to the 
 witness. The interpreter requested to 
 be jallovved to divide the question into 
 three parts ; and having been re-stated 
 by his lordship, he said] — There was 
 nobodv : I saw nobody. 
 
 EarfGROSVENOR.— Was thereany 
 other door by wliich persons could go 
 into the room where this bath was put ? 
 — I have not seen any other door. 
 
 Was there, or was there not, any 
 ^ other door? — I never saw that there 
 was any other door. 
 
 Will you swear that there was no 
 other? — I have not seen one: I will 
 swear that there was only one, because 
 I must have seen it if there was any 
 other. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR.— 
 If there had been another door open- 
 ing into the room where the bath was 
 prepared, must you not havo seen it ? 
 — I must have seen-it if there had been 
 another door; but I have not seen ano- 
 ther there. 
 
 Lord AUCKLAND.— Have you seen 
 Bergami and the Princess quit the 
 bath ? — No, but I have seen Bergami 
 come out of the room and mount the 
 deck, and tell her woman to eorae down 
 and dress her Royal Higlmess. And I 
 have with my own ears heard hini say, 
 " Mademoiselle Dumont, come down 
 and dress her Royal Highness. 
 
 Leaving her Royal Highness by her- 
 self in the bath ? — Alone in the bath. 
 
 What was your position when Ber- 
 |;ami left the bath? — I was standing 
 therewith hot water, because I thought 
 lie might still need it. 
 
 Could you at that time see into the 
 bath ? — No, for Bergami went out side- 
 ways, making as little noise as pos- 
 sible, and shut the door. 
 
 How long had Bergami and the 
 Princess been in the room before Ber- 
 gami went to call her maids ? — About 
 half an hour. 
 
 Marquis of HUNTLEY.— Was Ber- 
 gami, on retiring from the bath, dressed 
 in the same way as when he was ob- 
 served to enter it ? — Yes. 
 
 Earl GREY.— Did the witness re- 
 main with some water at the door of 
 the bath when Bergami went to call 
 her maids to dress the Princess? — I re- 
 mained there till he told me to go 
 away. 
 
 When did he tell you to go away ? — 
 When he went up to^ go and tell Made- 
 moiselle Dumont to come down, he 
 told me that no more water was 
 wanted. 
 
 Did you go away immediately, or 
 wait till Mademoiselle Dumont eame 
 down stairs ? — Bergami remained upon 
 deck. Mademoiselle Dumont came 
 immediately, i- suhito" downstairs; I 
 took my pails away, and saw Made- 
 moiselle Dumont alone enter the bath- 
 room 
 
 Do you know how long the Princess 
 remained in the bath-room after Ma- 
 demoiselle Dumont went in to her? — 
 I cannot tell, because I went away 
 about my business. 
 
 When Madle. Dumont came down, 
 Bergami did not come down with her? 
 — No, I only saw Madlle. Dumont. 
 
 Lord ANSON. — On receiving your 
 orders to that effect, did you go away 
 to get the water, in order to be ready 
 with it if Bergami should call you ? — 
 I went nowhere, because there was a 
 sailor who gave me the water^ at the 
 door of the dining-room. 
 
 Did Bergami receive the pails of 
 water at the door of the dining-roora» 
 or did he come out to receive them ? — • 
 He received them at the door. He did 
 not come out. 
 
 The Earl of DARNLEY.— The wit- 
 ness has stated that a tent was placed 
 upon the deck of the polacre ; I wish 
 to know^ the nature of that tent, and 
 the manner in w hich it was placed ; 
 and whether it was a tent or an awn- 
 ing ? — It was a tent, which was spread 
 upon the deck by means of ropes ; and 
 in the evening it was closed as a pa- 
 vilion. (Here the witness described 
 upon the table the position of the 
 
CROSS-EXAMINATION OP THEODORfi MAJOCHI, 
 
 65 
 
 tent.) It was closed all round. I 
 l.'iink that, in the evcnini;, this tent was 
 let down and closed all round; and 
 they said from witliin, " Stop it well; 
 stop it all round; see there be no hole, 
 no opening." 
 
 Vv as it a sinjjle canvass ? — Some- 
 times it was single, and sometimes 
 other pieces of canvass were put to 
 stop the openings. 
 
 Earl tiROSVENOR. — By whom 
 was the witness recommended to the 
 service of her Royal Highness? — By 
 Bergami. 
 
 Earl OREY.— Does the witness know 
 whether the Princess was in the bath 
 before Bergami left the room to call 
 Mademoiselle Duraont ? — ^ I do not 
 know whether she was in the bath, be- 
 cause I did not look into the room. 
 
 The Marquis of LANSDOWN.— 
 What was the motive of the witness for 
 seeking at Pesaro to be discharged 
 from tlie service of the Princess? — 
 Because the Princess was surrounded 
 bv bad people. (A laugh.) 
 
 *Tlic Earl of CARNARVON.— How 
 was the Princess dressed when she 
 went into the bathing-room with Ber- 
 gami ? — As far as this goes, non mi 
 ricordo. 
 
 VV^as she in her ordinary dress, or in 
 a bathing-dress? — I do not remember 
 precisely what dress she had on. 
 
 What was the size of the bath? — The 
 witness described it as small. 
 
 What furniture was there in the 
 room ? — I remember there was a sola, 
 a sofa-bed or sofa, where, in the morn- 
 ing, we placed the cushions when we 
 opened the bed. 
 
 The Marquis of LANSDOWN wish- 
 ed to put one more question to the 
 witness, in explanation of the question 
 which he had last addressed to him. 
 The witness had stated that his reason 
 for wishing to leave the service of the 
 Princess at Pesaro was, that her Royal 
 Highness was surrounded by bad peo- 
 ple ; why then, he wished to know, did 
 he afterwards make application to 
 Schiavini to be restored to that ser- 
 vice ? Had the witness, in the mean 
 time, altered his opinion of the persons 
 by whom the Princess wa-s-surroundcd ? 
 — I applied to Schiavini in a kind of 
 common conversational way; I asked 
 if it were possible to enter again into 
 the service of the Princess; 1 applied 
 in a kind of way. 
 
 'VUen the witness meant nothing se- 
 lious by his application?— No j it was 
 
 9 
 
 a sort of conversational application, 
 " Would it not be possible to enter 
 again into the service of the Princess?" 
 I was in service at the time. 
 
 Lord Viscount FALMOUTH (from 
 the gallery) would detain the house for 
 a moment, upon a point which to him 
 appeared important. 
 
 The witness had been asked if be 
 knew whether the Princess was in the 
 bath at the time when he carried the 
 water to the door. To this question 
 he had answered, *'l cannot know." 
 The witness had since asserted, that, 
 when he carried the water to the bath, 
 he could see tliat there was no other 
 person in the room besides Bergami. 
 Now he wished to know why the wit- 
 ness could not see if the Queen was in 
 the bath, when he could see that no 
 one else besides Bergami was in the 
 room. 
 
 The Earl of LAUDERDALE said, 
 that the original question stood thus— 
 ''Do you know whether, at the time 
 you so carried the water, the Princess 
 was in the bath?" The answer given 
 by the witness was, "I cannot know.'* 
 If the witness had said that he did not 
 know whether the Princess was then 
 in the room, there would have been a 
 contradiction ; but at present there 
 appeared to him (Lord Lauderdale) to 
 be no contradiction. 
 
 Lord Viscount FALMOUTH was 
 sorry to occupy the tin>e of the house ; 
 but he thought the point was of consi- 
 derable moment. The witness a quar- 
 ter of an hour before had stated, that 
 when he carried the water which Ber- 
 gami, half-opening the door, took in, 
 if any other person had been in the 
 room he must have seen such person. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL saw no 
 apparent contradiction at present. 
 The fact he took to be this;— The 
 witness prepared the bath, and saw 
 Bergami and the Princess go into the 
 bathing-room. The question tWon put 
 to the witness was, did you see the 
 Princess in the bath ? The witness an- 
 swered, I could not see, because after 
 they went in the door was shut. Th« 
 subsequent question, "Was any other 
 person in the room.''" applied to the 
 time when the door was afterwards 
 opened; and the witness answered, 
 there was no one in the room. Whe- 
 ther the story told by the witness was 
 or was not to be credited, was another 
 question ; there did not seem to beany 
 contradictioq at present. 
 
66 
 
 TRIAL OP THE QtJEEK, 
 
 Lord ERSKINE understood the 
 witness to say, that if any other perr 
 son had been in the room, he niiust 
 have seen them. 
 
 Lord Viscount FALMOUTH.— Ex- 
 actly so. 
 
 THE LORD - CHANCELLOR 
 thought that if their lordships looked 
 at the relative situations of the bath 
 and of the room, they would find there 
 had been no contradiction. 
 
 Lord Viscount FALMOUTH pressed 
 his opinion. 
 
 Several of the questions and answers 
 were then read by the short-hand 
 •writer, from which it appeared that 
 the witness had used these words — *' If 
 there had been any other person in the 
 room, I must have seen them." 
 
 Lord Viscount FALMOUTH con- 
 ceived that those words applied to the 
 time at which the witness carried the 
 pails of water to the door ; and that 
 the former evidence referred to the 
 same period. Surely if the witness 
 could see that there was no one else 
 ip the room, he must have seen the 
 hath. 
 
 The Earl of CARNARVON thought 
 that the answers referred to different 
 periods. 
 
 Lord Viscount FALMOUTH ac- 
 quiesced. 
 
 Lord DE DUNSTANVILLE.— 
 l^ow often did the witness sleep be- 
 tween the two tents ?^-I remember 
 twice. 
 
 Do you remember at either time 
 hearing any conversation between two 
 persons inside ? — Yes. 
 
 Could you distinguish the voices ?■ — 
 I could not distinguish the voices -, but 
 I heard a whisper. 
 
 Could you hear whether the voice 
 vpas that of a male or of a female ? — I 
 heard two voices speak in a whisper ; 
 Ifut I could not make out whether they 
 ■were the voices of women or of men. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM submitted, that 
 ho was entitled, through the medium 
 df the Lord-Chancellor, to put certain 
 questions to the witness. 
 
 The LOR13-CHANCELLQR.— No 
 doubt. 
 
 Examined by the LORD-CHAN- 
 CELLOR, at Mr. Brougham's sugges- 
 tion. — The witness has stated that he 
 was in place at the time when he had 
 the conversations which he mentioned 
 with Schiavini : what wages did he 
 then receive ? — The witness was stating 
 that he had been at that period in the 
 
 employ of the yonng Marquis Onis* 
 chalti, when 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said that they had 
 the |>oint already. 
 
 Did you not make repeated applica- 
 tions to Jeronimus to be taken back 
 into the service of the Princess? — 
 Qucsto non mi ricordo. 
 
 Did you not five or ^ix times make 
 applications to Cameron to be restored 
 to the service of her Royal Highness? 
 -^The first or second time that Came- 
 ron came to Milan he sent hi« servant 
 for me. I went, and Cameron said, 
 " Theodore Majochi," (and I remenv. 
 ber it as well as if it were but now,) 
 ** Theo(lore Majochi, do not enter into 
 any service, because the Princess will 
 take you back." The conversation 
 must be put down as it wa? said. Ca- 
 meron said, " Theodore, give me back 
 the certificate of your good service, 
 and I will tell the Princess that you 
 have not entered into any other ser-r 
 vice ; and she will pay you for all the 
 time you have been out of service, and 
 all the damage you have suffered." I 
 answered, " Cameron, give me back 
 my paper (which I had given hira aU 
 ready in talking); tor, rather than 
 serve the Princess, on account of the. 
 persons who are about her, I would go 
 and eat grass." 
 
 Was this conversation with old Ca- 
 meron .'*-^Ye8. 
 
 Did you at any other time apply to 
 Cameron t© be reinstated in your ser- 
 vice .^-^Mi ricordo di non : non, non. 
 
 Do you know if Cameron was ex- 
 amined at Milan ?-^0f this I know no- 
 thing. 
 
 The Earl of LAUDERDALE wish- 
 ed to know whether this conversation 
 with Cameron at Milan took place be- 
 fore witness went to Vienna, or after 
 his return?— Before I went. 
 The witness retired. 
 
 SECOND WITNESS. 
 
 [Gaetano Paturzo.J 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL then 
 called Gaetano Paturzo. The witness 
 was a man rather of a shabby appear- 
 ance, and apparently of about thirtjt 
 years of ajre.- 
 
 Mr. DENMAN desired to know 
 what religion the witness professed ?—* 
 Catholic. An apostolic Roman. . 
 
 Mr. DENMAN wished to be told 
 when the witness had last taken the 
 sacrament. He should be able to 
 
EVIDENCE OF GAETANO PATHBZO. 
 
 6f 
 
 fhow that, according to the religion 
 professed by the witness, no oath was 
 binding unless taken within a certain 
 lime after confession, ahd after re- 
 ceiving the sacrament. 
 
 Mr. Denmau's objection Was over- 
 ruled. 
 
 The witness was then sworn, and 
 examined by the Attorney-General. 
 
 The LOUD CHANCELLOR.— 
 Have the goodness to keep up your 
 voice, Mr. Attorney-General, and let 
 the M'ituess keep up his. 
 
 What countryman are you? — ^1 am 
 of Naples. 
 
 What is your occupation?---! am 
 captain of a merchant vessel. 
 
 Have you a share in tlie vessel you 
 command ?— I have. 
 
 What share ?-— One fourth. 
 
 W^ere you, in the month of April, 
 1816, mate of a »hij> commanded by 
 Ouarguini Guardello?— I was. 
 
 What was the size of that vessel?— 
 About 300 tons. 
 
 Do you remeriaber the Princess of 
 Wales coming on board that ship at 
 Augusta, in Sicily? — Yes. 
 
 To what place did the vessel first 
 Mil from Augusta?—- ToGirgenti; and 
 from thence to Tunis, 
 
 Do yen remember the names of the 
 persons who accompanied the Princess 
 QU board ? — Almost all. 
 
 Mention the names of those whom 
 yon remember. — There was B. Ber- 
 gami, Schiavini, William Austin, Thco- 
 liore, Carlino, and a cook, whoni they 
 called Francis. 
 
 Any females? — Yes. 
 
 Who were they ? — There was the 
 Countess Oldi; I l>elieve, but I do 
 not recollect well, she was dame d'hon- 
 fteur; two maid servants, one Was 
 called Duraont, and the other Bru- 
 iietta ; and a little child, called Victo- 
 rln€. 
 
 When yau first sailed from Augusta 
 to Tunis, do you remember the situa- 
 tion of the cabins appropriated for the 
 flleeping-rooms of the Princess and tlie 
 Conntess of Oldi?— The cabin of the 
 ship was divided into two. On the 
 right hand was the bed of the Prin- 
 cess ; on the left that of the Countess 
 of Oldi. 
 
 Outside that cabin was there a din- 
 itlig-room ?— There was. 
 
 Do you know where Bergami's sleep- 
 ing-cabin was at that time ? — I do. 
 
 Where? — In the first cabin on the 
 riglit, inuncdiately beyond the dining* 
 
 iFOom. [Here the witness described 
 the relative situations of the cabins, 
 Afc., upon the table. This was the 
 body of the ship : the two lateral parts 
 are divided into small cabins. One of 
 tiiese small cabins, most near to the 
 poop and to the dining-room-, was that 
 appropriated to Bergaiiii.] 
 
 Did the dining-room e|ctend the 
 whole breadth of the ship? 
 
 Mr. DENMAN objected io what he 
 considered a leading question. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL was 
 not aware that he had transgressed the 
 strict rules of examination : he wished 
 to keep within them. 
 
 Mr. DENMAN thought that the 
 question ought to be, "To what polni 
 does the dining-room extend?" The 
 question, as the Attorney-General put 
 it, admitted of an immediate answer, 
 which, at the same time, it suggested 
 — Yes. 
 
 The ATTORNEY GENERAL 
 trusted that he should not be pre^ 
 eluded from asking a question merely 
 because it might be answered by the 
 word "Yes." 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR put 
 the question, then, in this way. — Did 
 or did not the dining-room extend the 
 whole length of the ship ? 
 
 The interpreter professed himself 
 unable to put the question in that 
 shape. He must ask, Did the dining- 
 room extend from side to side, yes or 
 no? 
 
 Mr. DENMAN wonld certainly ob- 
 ject to the question in that form. 
 
 The LORD - CHANCELLOR.— 
 Take this then — How much of the 
 breadth of the ship did the dining- 
 room occupy ?— The whole, except the 
 wooden line used for the cleanliness of 
 the ship : the whole breadth. 
 
 Examined bv the ATTORNEY- 
 GENERAL.— After leaving 'funis, 
 did Bergami continue to sleep in his 
 own' cabin, or did he continue to sleep 
 in another part of the vessel? 
 
 Mr. DENMAN objected to the form 
 of the question. 
 
 After leaving Tunis, did ymi sail 
 for any other place ? — We sailed for 
 Malta. 
 
 After leaving Tunis, did Bergami 
 sleep in the same cabin as before, or in 
 another part of the vessel? — His bed 
 »was removed to the dining-room, and 
 was probably, especially, particularly, 
 on the right hand of the dining-room. 
 
 A noble LORD wished to know 
 
68 
 
 TRIAL OP THE QUEEN. 
 
 u'hich oflli^fte expressions, particularly 
 or probably, applied. 
 
 The interpreter could not translate 
 lire Italian idiom iii one word. He 
 gave the various words, and their lord- 
 ships might select. 
 
 Was the right-hand side of the din- 
 ing-room nearer to the cabin of the 
 Princess than tlic left, or farther from 
 it? — As tlie cabin of the Princess was 
 on the right-hand side, it was more 
 near. The room occupied by tlie 
 Princess had a door which led into the 
 dining-room; and another door ofeom- 
 nmnication with the chamber of the 
 dame d'honneur. 
 
 Was that communication to the room 
 of the datne d'honneur from within the 
 chamber of the Princess? — Yes; the 
 ciiamber of the Princess was divided 
 into two chambers ; one for the Prin- 
 cess, and the other for the dame d'hon- 
 neur: it was divided by a painted 
 canvass. 
 
 When Bergami left Tunis, where did 
 he sleep? — On the right of the dining- 
 room — ^^more particularly on the right. 
 
 Was the bed of Bergami removed 
 on that occasion? — Yes, it was removed 
 to the riglrt side of the dining-room. 
 When the door was closed, there was 
 no possibility of seeing from one bed 
 to another. There was a communica- 
 tion from the bed-chamber of the Prin- 
 cess to the chamber of the dame d'hon- 
 neur. 
 
 How was that part of the ship laid 
 out? — The chamber of the Princess 
 was divided into two chambers ; one 
 for the dame d'honneur, the other for 
 the Princess. 
 
 How far from Bergami's bed was 
 the door leading to the chamber of the 
 Princess? — Part of the chamber of the 
 Princess was foimed by the partition 
 of the ship, in that a door was made, 
 and at a proper distance from the door 
 ^as situated Bergami's bed. 
 
 The door being open, could a person 
 in the Princess's bed see Bergami's 
 bed? — Witness. Why not? Accord- 
 ing to the division made, in whatever 
 situation a person was, in Bergami's 
 bed, he could not help seeing the Prin- 
 cess's bed when the door was open. 
 
 The sitfiation of the bed was such, 
 that a person could not fail to see both 
 together. 
 
 The witness afterwards added : — 
 But a person might stand up in the 
 bed ia such a situation as not to be 
 bale to 6e« the other bed. I menn, if 
 
 he placed himself upright. But the 
 bed itself might see the bed of tii€ 
 Princess. (A laugh.) 
 
 How many doors were there from 
 the passage which the witness de- 
 scribes to run along between the two 
 sides of the bed-room ? how many doors 
 were there fiom that passage into the 
 dining-room ?— No answer. 
 
 The witness has stated, as I under- 
 stood him, that the body of the ship 
 was divided into three divisions , on 
 each side there were cabins, and a pas- 
 sage in the middle, communicating 
 with the dining-room : now, how ranny 
 doors led from that passage into the 
 dining-room? — Two doors opened into 
 it. 
 
 After the ship sailed from Tnnis, 
 were those doors closed? — Yes, they 
 were shut ; one was nailed up. 
 
 After that, was there one entrance, 
 or more, into the dining-room from 
 that passage? — There was only otoej 
 the other door. 
 
 Where did the ship go from Tunis ? 
 — To Malta, and thence to the island 
 of Milo. 
 
 Wliere did you proceed afterwards ? 
 — After much voyage, we went to St. 
 Jean d'Acre. 
 
 Where did the Princess go from 15t. 
 Jean d Acre? — To Jerusalem; to visit 
 the holy place. 
 
 Did the witness accompany the Prin- 
 cess on her journey to Jerusalem r — > 
 Yes ; I went to Jerusalem. 
 
 During that journey, did the party 
 travel by night or by day? — We tra- 
 velled the whole of the night, and part 
 of the day ; but the other part of the 
 day, it being then very hot, wb rested 
 ourselves. 
 
 W^hen yon rested by day, were any 
 tents erected ? — Not always. At Na- 
 zareth we lodged at a private house ; 
 but, when we were going towards Je- 
 rusalem, we raised our tents neai' a 
 convent. 
 
 In what tent did Bergami r«6t ?-:-^ 
 When the tents were raised, we dined 
 also ; and in one of these tents was 
 the Princess. In that tent was imme- 
 diately placed an iron travelling bed- 
 stead — ^a small one — and upon a jAec.e 
 of matting was pntthe bed in the tent. 
 Bergami and the Princess there dined : 
 I saw nothing else, for I then went to 
 dine myself. 
 
 Does the witness know who slept in 
 that tent ?— The Princess, I know, be- 
 cause it was intended for her : bnt a* 
 
EVIDENCE OF CAETONA PATURZO. 
 
 69 
 
 to any other person I do not know, for 
 
 I went to dine nus«lf, 
 
 ' Does he know where Bergami then 
 
 «lept? 
 
 Mr. DENINIAN objected to this 
 question. The witness liad stated 
 timt he was in a situation which pre- 
 vented hun from knowing the fact re- 
 ferred to, and therefore the question 
 could not be pnt. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL ar- 
 pued, that it was quite reguhir to ask 
 the witness whether he knew where 
 Bergami slept at that time. 
 
 Mr. DENMAN.— I don't object to 
 the question itself, but to the moment 
 at which it was asked, when, in conse- 
 quence of wliat the witness had stated, 
 be is disqualified fr^m answering it. 
 The ATTORNEY -GENf:RAL — 
 ,. T>ees the witness know where Bergami 
 ■"^ ^ riept during the Jay when Uiey rested ? 
 -" ^^^ I do not know. 
 ^■:? The m itoess not appearing to com- 
 j>rehend the question, the interpreter 
 expressed a desire that it sl.'ould be 
 again repeated by the learned counsel. 
 (Cries of " No, no.") 
 
 The interpreter said, that his mind 
 •was so taken up with translating every 
 "word'that occurred, that he could not 
 repeat the whole of the sentence on the 
 moment. 
 
 ' The question was tlicn renewed, and 
 tJie witness answered : — " I positively 
 cannot know where Bergami slept, be- 
 cause I left him and the Princess, and 
 
 went to my victuals. I imagine 
 
 Mr. DENMAN interposed — A com- 
 plete answer has been given to the ques- 
 tion, and any speculation the witness 
 may follow it up with as to his belief 
 or his imagination, cannot be received. 
 The ATTORNEY -GENERAL.— 
 The point, as to the propriety orim- 
 . propriety of this interrogatory, cannot 
 
 ? be entertained until the whole of the 
 
 question is received. But my learned 
 ; • friend, without waiting for it, breaks 
 » io and interrupts the witness before 
 
 your lordships know what the answer 
 may be. 
 
 The LORD -CHANCELLOR. — 
 You certainly ought to know what 
 tlie answer is before you object to it. 
 Mr. DENMAN reiterated his objec- 
 tion. 
 
 ' The LORD -CHANCELLOR— It 
 M impossible to proceed in tliis way. 
 Unless we know the nature of the an- 
 ^wer as well as tjie Inter|)reter does 
 before he interpret* it, how can we 
 
 decide on it f* The conitltutional mode 
 
 is if an answer is not evidence to strike 
 
 it out. 
 
 Mr. DENMAN.— Your lordships 
 
 know that the effect is produced the 
 
 moment the answer is given. 
 
 The LORD - CHANCELLOR.— 
 
 Consider the state we are in if you wiH 
 
 not lei the interpreter give the answer 
 
 as he is sworn to do, how can we know 
 
 whether it is fit to be received or not? 
 LORD ERSKINE said a few words, 
 
 but they were inaudible below the bar. 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR.— Let 
 
 the Interpreter give us the answer. 
 The question was then repeated, and 
 
 the Interpreter proceeded to that part 
 of the answer where the word " ima- 
 
 gino" occurred, when 
 
 MR. DENMAN again interposed. 
 Their lordships, he said, knew that, in 
 a court of justice, if, instead of taking 
 the statement from an Interpreter, 
 they examined the witness himself, and 
 he answered that he did not know 
 some particular point, but that he 
 guessed or imagined some circum- 
 stance relative to which a question 
 might be asked if the preceding inter- 
 rogatory had beea answered in the 
 affirmative, the Coimsel appearing ia 
 such a case would not do his duty 
 to his client if he did not instan- 
 taneously interpose, and prevent the 
 witness from proceeding. In any 
 court whatsoever he conceived the 
 same course should be followed, and 
 that the Counsel, when a circumstance 
 of that nature occurred, was bound to 
 bid the witness shut his mouth. Here, 
 when a word was interpreted " I ima- 
 gine," it was absolutely necessary for 
 him to interpose to prevent the whole 
 of the answer bfcing received. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR.— I 
 think the Interpreter could not be 
 stopped in giving the answer of tlie 
 witness, until it appeared, from so 
 much of the interpretation as he had 
 made, tbat the witness was about to 
 state something of imagination or opi- 
 nion. (Hear.) I think it now appears 
 that what the witness was about to 
 state was a matter of imagination, and 
 not what had come to his knowledge. 
 The Miawcr cannot tJierefore be re- 
 ceived. (Hear.) Interpreter, be so 
 good as to state to the witness that he 
 must speak only to facts which he 
 knows. 
 
 The interpreter immediately com- 
 plied with the Lord Chancellor'* desire. 
 
w 
 
 TSfAL OJP THE QUEEBT* 
 
 The examinfltion then procp«(l«d. 
 
 liftk the witness ever seen Bergami 
 reposing iindrr any other tent? — No. 
 
 Wlieii witness was at Jerusalem, was 
 he present at the church there during 
 the performance ot* any ceremony ? — 
 1 was. 
 
 Was the Princess there?— She was. 
 
 "U'ho else were present at tl»e cere- 
 gaony ? — Bergami, Austin, Schiayini, 
 and some others of the Princess's 
 suite, who were made Knights ef the 
 Sacred Sepulchre. 
 
 Was it a religious ceremony? — It 
 was. The order was conferred on those 
 who visited tUe Holy Sepulchre. 
 
 Do you know whether any other 
 onler was conferred on Bergami whilst 
 he was at Jerusalem ? — I know i^ Bene 
 at all. 
 
 Did yon remain at Jerusalem with 
 the Princess, w- return before her to 
 Jaffa ? — I went to Jaffa before her. 
 
 Did the Princess and her suite em- 
 bark at Jaffa on board the same ship 
 that brought them ? — ^They did. 
 
 After they left Jaffa, was any tent 
 raised on the deck of the vessel?^ 
 There was. 
 
 Was that tent closed at night ?=^Ye&, 
 it was. 
 
 Was tliere any sofa oi* bed placed 
 umlcr that tent ? — Yes, there was some 
 so^'a, and a small bed. 
 
 How were the sofa and bed placed 
 under that tent? — They were plz^ceti 
 at a little distance, to make a passage. 
 Has the .witness ever assisted in 
 closing that tent at night ?^-Yes, I 
 have. 
 
 Who was in tlie tent at the time yon 
 assisted in closing it? — The Princess, 
 Bergami, and some person belonging 
 to her household. 
 
 Do you know who remained ia that 
 tent during the night?-— Those who 
 remamed and^r the tent I don't know; 
 btit the servants who were in tke tent 
 CMue out of it. I saw them on deck, 
 and stopped them. I -don't ksiow who 
 remained under the tent, because it 
 had a communication also belov/ ; and 
 whether the Princess went out, I don't 
 know. 
 
 Have you ever seen tlie tent raised 
 Itp in the morning? — ^I have seen it. 
 
 Who have you seen under it, or have 
 yon seen any persons under that tent, 
 when it wasso raised up in the morn- 
 ing ?— For the most part I have seen 
 fhe Princess lying on the sofa, and Ber- 
 gami ou the bed. Sometimes not. 
 
 When you have ««cn Betgami §o 
 
 lying on the hed, how was he dressed ? 
 — In his^iAual dre«s»-a cloak (capotto.) 
 
 The witness afterwards further ex- 
 plained. It was not a cloak ; it was 
 a species of morning-gown, with large 
 sleeves (itoga.) 
 
 Have you ever known the tent to h« 
 closed during the day?— I have. 
 
 For how long? — A little time: half 
 an hour, or an hour. 
 
 Who was luid^r the tent when it wa» 
 closed by day? — The same as in the 
 evening, when the tent was elo«ed. 
 
 I again ask, who was under tlie tent 
 when it was closed by <lay? — The 
 Princess, Bergami, and some person 
 belonging to the servants, who assisted 
 in closing the tent. 
 
 Did that person who assisted in 
 closing the tent remain under it, or 
 come out of it ? — Many times I ha-we 
 seen that person, the servant, come 
 out ; but other times, when I ^was em- 
 ployed in the business of the ship, I do 
 not know whether he came out or re- 
 mained. 
 
 Do you know by whose directions 
 the tent had been closed on these occa- 
 sions? — Sometimes by the directions of 
 Schiavini, but always by one of her 
 Royal Highness's people. 
 
 Have you ever seen the Princess ^nd 
 Bergami walking together on the deck ? 
 - — I have. 
 
 In what manner ?— Ann in arm. 
 
 Have you ever seen them on the deck 
 when they have not been walking?— I 
 have. 
 
 In what situation have you seen them 
 then ? — In various situations ; differeirt 
 situations. 
 
 Describe some of them. — I have 
 sometimes seen them sitting on a gun, 
 w ith a hand and arm of one behind the 
 back of the other, because the goo was 
 too small. They were supporting eacji 
 other with their arms. Sometimes 
 Bergami wa<» lyittg on his back on a 
 small bed, and the Princess sitting nea«" 
 to the bed, leaning upon it. When 
 the captain saw rae, on those occasions, 
 he would make some excuse, sometimes 
 this, sometimes that, to send me away, 
 because we wt re distant relations. 
 
 [Tlie interpreter observed, that the 
 witness's expression was, •' mezzo jwi- 
 rente," the literal meaning of which 
 was, half-relations ; but he had trans- 
 lated it, distant relations J 
 
 You say you have seen tlie Princess 
 and Bergami sitting on a small bed; 
 
EVIDENCE OF GAETANO PATURZO. 
 
 71 
 
 Imve yoH ever ^'een them sitting in any 
 other's ituatiou? — I have. 
 
 In what situation have you .seen 
 tliem ? — Sometimes I have seen Berga- 
 mi sitting on the bench near to the 
 main-mast, and the Princess sitting in 
 his lap, with her arra round his neck, 
 over his shoulder. 
 
 How was Bergami's arm placed on 
 that occasion ? — Bergami's arm was 
 behind the back of the Princess, and 
 the arm of the Princess was round the 
 neck of Bergami. 
 
 You have stated that there was a 
 sofa and bed placed under that tent ; 
 where was the bed taken from when it 
 was placed there? — A small iron bed 
 eame on board when the Princess came, 
 for her use. 
 
 Do you know, before the tent was 
 erected, where that bed was placed ? — ■ 
 First, concerning the nature of the bed : 
 — the legs were of iron, and a piece of 
 ranvass was placed over it, without 
 boards. At the beginning, when we 
 began to 'make a tent to procure shel- 
 ter from the sun, then the Princess or- 
 der d the sofa to rest herself on, as a 
 bed; and then also, from her luggage, 
 was brought forward that small iron 
 bed. 
 
 Do you in the course of the voyage, 
 remember St. Bartholomew's day? — 
 I do. 
 
 State whether any thing particular 
 took place during that day. — During 
 that day there was general mirth 
 through the whole vessel, among the 
 captain and crew. During the even- 
 ing afterwards dishes were decked 
 with lights, to make an illumination all 
 over the ship, and liquor was given to 
 all the sailors to drink, by the orders 
 of Bergami. A dollar each was given 
 to them. All the crew danced, and 
 cried^ " Long live St. Bartiioloracw ! 
 Long live the Princess ! Long live the 
 Ghevalier r 
 
 I would ask, when Bergami came on 
 board at Jaffa, whether he wore any 
 •thcr order but that of St. Sepulchre? 
 —When he retumod from. Jaffa, he 
 and several of the Princess's suite ap- 
 |)ear«d with a new order. 
 
 What was that order called i*t-*.Tbe 
 dVderofSt. Caroline. 
 
 CROSS-EXAMINATION. 
 
 Crots-examined by Mr. DENMAN. 
 -—Nam© the persons who, of her Majes- 
 ty's household, wore those orders? — 
 Bergami, Austin, the Doctor, two 
 
 English officers, who waited on her 
 Royal Highness, and one or two other 
 persons. 
 
 Had not every one, who had been at 
 Jerusalem with her Royal Highness this* 
 order of 3t. Caroline? — Not all; only 
 6 or 7 persons. 
 
 Where do you usually live? — I am 
 fixed at Messina, because my father is 
 a pilot there. 
 
 What is his name? — Giovanni Bat- 
 tista Paturzo. 
 
 What business or trade is he ? — He in 
 first pilot the royal navy of Naples. 
 He is of the degree and rank of an 
 officer. 
 
 I suppose the witness is not himself 
 married? — I am not. 
 
 Have you always gone by the same 
 name?— Yes, certiainly: I have not 
 changed my name. 
 
 Was your name well known on board 
 the ship you have been speaking of? — 
 Yes, certainly, by all the crew, who 
 knew me to be the pilot. 
 
 How many persons did the crew con- 
 sist of? — We were 22. 
 
 Were they all constantly employed 
 in managing the ship? — The crew was 
 employed both to manoeuvre the ship 
 and for the service of the Princess, as 
 I was employed myself. 
 
 Have you seen any of them lately ? 
 — -I have seen the captain. 
 
 What is his name ? — Vincente Bea- 
 giuno. 
 
 Have yon seen none of the crew 
 within this week .'* — I have not. 
 
 Have yon seen any of them within 
 this half-year ? — Two months ago I saw 
 one of the sailors. During the last six 
 months, as Messina is a thoroughfare, 
 I have seen some of them there on 
 board of other vessels. 
 
 What is the name of the man yon 
 have seen within the last two months? 
 — Giuseppe Arbono. 
 
 Where did you see him ? — At Messina. 
 
 Was the gun which you have spoken 
 of on deck? — It was on deck. 
 
 You speak of a communication be- 
 tween the tent and the interior of the 
 vessel : where was it ? — The door wa» 
 exactly under the tent. 
 
 Where was the bed of which yon 
 have spoken ?-^It was on deck, near 
 that door. 
 
 Had not the crew access to all parts 
 of the ship at all times .^ — As soon as 
 the tent was closed, nobody could pass 
 the place occupied by it; bnt all other 
 parts of the deck they could goto. 
 
72 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEJf. 
 
 Were you ever at Milan ? — Yes ; 
 now, in my way here. 
 
 Did you come to England by Milan r 
 — Yes ; I went from Messina to Naples 
 by sea ; from Naples I went to Milan ; 
 from Milan to Paris; from Paris to 
 Dieppe; from Dieppe to Brighton; 
 and from Brighton, by land, to London. 
 
 Was that the first time you had been 
 at Milan ?— Yes. 
 
 Who first applied to you to come 
 here, for this business ?— The English 
 Vicc-C'onsul at Messina. 
 
 When was itP— On the 22d, 23d, 
 «4th, 25th, and 26th of the last month, 
 July. 
 
 Was that the first time you were de- 
 sired to give evidence on this subject? 
 —Yes. 
 
 Did you go to the Consul^ or the 
 Consul come to you ? — The Consul sent 
 for me, because he had been charged 
 to do so by the Minister at Naples. 
 
 What are you to have for coming 
 here? — For what I have lost it will be 
 very little indeed. 
 
 M'hat is it you are to have ? — I, for 
 coming here, must receive, as a com- 
 pensation for the ship and trade I am 
 obliged to give up, 800 dollars per 
 month. 
 
 (This statement created a general 
 buz throughout the house.) 
 
 The interpreter stated that the 
 rate of the dollar varied. The usual 
 rate was 4s. 3d. or 4s. 4d. He recol- 
 lected it as high as 4s. 6d.; but the 
 average is 4s. 3d. 
 
 (The short-hand writer was here 
 called on to read the answer to the last 
 question, which he did.) 
 
 Have you paid any travelling ex- 
 pences ? — I have paid nothing, because 
 I came accompanied by a courier. I 
 was obliged, of course, to come ; be- 
 cause the Minister applied to the Con- 
 sul, and the Consul told me, if I did 
 not go, I would be obliged (obligando) 
 to go by means of the government; 
 otherwise I was not willing to do so. 
 
 Who is the courier that accompa- 
 nied yon? — From Naples to Milan I 
 
 was accompanied by Nicola , and 
 
 from Milan here I was accompanied 
 by Mr. Grouse. 
 
 How did you come fiom Naples to 
 Milan ? — In a carriage. 
 
 Was it a stage-coach or a diligence ? 
 ■ — It was a carriage hired for two by 
 the courier. 
 
 Could any other persons take a seat 
 in it ?— These questions ai e useless. I 
 
 saw the horses changed : the minister 
 gave me in charge to one courier, and 
 he to anotlier. 
 
 So, the minister gave yon to one cou- 
 rier, and that one consigned you to 
 another who brought you here ? Is it 
 not so? — This courier brought me to. 
 Milan, and there Colonel Brown gave 
 me in charge to Mr. Grouse, who 
 brought me here. 
 
 How did Colonel Brown come to give 
 you in charge to Mr. Grouse? — The 
 courier brought a letter from the mi- 
 nister to Colonel Brown at Milan. 
 
 How long were you at Milan ? — I 
 havo not uiy memorandum-book in 
 my pocket : perhaps* two or three days. 
 
 Where did you live these two or 
 three days ? — At an inn. 
 
 How often did you see Colonel 
 Brown there? — First when I gave the 
 letter to him, and again when I took 
 leave to set out. 
 
 Did you see a person of the name of 
 
 ? (We could not catch the 
 
 name) — I do not know any one of that 
 name : this is the first time it ever 
 reached my ear. 
 
 Did you see any person take down 
 what you said when you were exami- 
 ned ? — Yes, at Milan. 
 
 What was the person called ?■ — There 
 w ere present Colonel Brown, two other 
 persons, the person who wrote, an4 
 myself, making five. 
 
 Did Colonel Brown put questions to 
 you? — Yes, like this person (the inter- 
 preter.) 
 
 Were you sworn on the cross of 
 Christ?— I was not, because I was not 
 asked. 
 
 Were you sworn at Milan ? — Not at all. 
 
 Were you examined at Naples before 
 you set out? — No. 
 
 How did you travel with Mr. Grouse 
 from Milan to Paris? — In a carriage 
 also. 
 
 Were you and IMr. Grouse alone in 
 it? — I and Mr. Grouse and the post- 
 boys. 
 
 What sot-t of a carriage was it ? — It 
 
 IS a 
 seats. 
 
 When did you arrive in London ?-r 
 Yesterday. 
 
 How long did you remain in Paris? 
 — AYe arrived there in the morning and 
 set out at night. 
 
 In the course of that day did you see 
 any person at Paris that talked to you 
 on this subject?— No, not with regard 
 to th^ depositions. 
 
EVIDENCE OF GAETANO PATURZO. 
 
 73 
 
 Did tliey ask yon any questions about 
 what you were to say against her Royal 
 Hij»liness? — No, for that would have 
 been the same that I have now said. 
 
 I wisli to ask if any person talked 
 with v(Mi at all at Paris on the subject 
 of what you were to say about the 
 Princess ? — No : at Paris I was so short 
 a time that I had hardly sufficient time 
 to rest, as we were travelling post. 
 
 Were you never examined on this sub- 
 ject before you left Messina for Milan ? 
 — No. ' 
 
 On what day did you arrive at Pa- 
 ris? — (The interpreter after communi- 
 cating the question, stated to their lord- 
 ships that the witness had asked him 
 what day this was, and that he had told 
 him it was M'ednesday, but nothing 
 more.) No answer. 
 
 How many days is it ago ?— I can't tell. 
 
 Do you mean to say that you can't 
 tell whether you were at Paris last 
 week? — (After a long pause) Last Sa- 
 turday : Saturday, last week. 
 
 Were you examined since you came 
 to Fngland? — Yes. 
 
 Before you came to this house ? — Yes. 
 
 Have you been brought to this place 
 before you came as a witness ? — No. 
 
 When were you examined here ? — 
 Yesterday. 
 
 Do you know the name of the gen- 
 tleman who examined you? — No. 
 
 You were not sworn, J suppose, yes- 
 terday?— No. 
 
 Where have you been since your 
 arrival? — There, where all the rest 
 are : in a place down below, from which 
 there was communication with this 
 room. 
 
 Who are the rest to whom you allude? 
 — All the persons there. 
 
 Who are they ? — I have not had the 
 curiosity to label them. (A laugh.) 
 
 How many are there ? — ^I don't know. 
 . Do you mean to say you don't know 
 whether there are ten, or ten times ten ? 
 — Ten times ten make an hundred, if I 
 understand arithmetic. 
 
 I bog to know whether in the place 
 frrwn which you came to this room 
 tliere are six persons?— Whether there 
 are six or more I don t know : I don't 
 know more *than three, the captain, 
 Theodore, and the cook. 
 
 Where did you stop last night? — In 
 my chamber. 
 
 Who were with you ? — The captain, 
 Theodore, and the cook. 
 
 Did any person besides these three 
 sup with yoH ?— First of all I took tea. 
 
 10 
 
 In that room there were five, the cap- 
 tain, Theodore, and three others. 
 
 Were there no more ? — I paid no at- 
 tention. 
 
 Did you sup together afterwards? — 
 1 took no supper last night : I took tea» 
 
 On what day did you come over? — 
 Yesterday I arrived here, which was 
 Tuesday. On Monday I left Dieppe, 
 and on Monday evening I reached 
 Biighton. 
 
 This closed the cross-examination by 
 Mr. Denman. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said he ought to 
 state to their lordships, with regard to 
 the cross-examination of the last wit- 
 ness—and what indeed applied equally 
 toboththe witnessesexamined—hishope^ 
 that they would not consider the cross- 
 examination closed, when the witness 
 retired, but their lordships, in compli« 
 ance with her Majesty's petition, would 
 allow the witnesses to be recalled at 
 any future period if necessary. Such 
 permission their lordships would per- 
 ceive to be essential to the ends of jus- 
 tice, when it was remembered that 
 there were witnesses of whom her 
 Majesty's counsel had never even heard 
 the names ? 
 
 The LORD -CHANCELLOR said, 
 that with regard to that application, 
 the house would of course be regulated 
 by a sense of justice, and by the occa- 
 sion that could be shown for such an 
 indnlgence. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM was well aware 
 that the house would in all its decisions 
 act in conformity to the dictates of jus- 
 tice ; but he had thought it his duty to 
 make this observation that their lord- 
 ships might not go away with the idea 
 that he and his learned friends had 
 finished their cross-examination. 
 
 Re-examined by the ATTORNEY- 
 GENERAL. 
 
 Have you a share in a ship at Mes- 
 sina ? — Yes ; I left the vessel at Messina. 
 
 What size of a ship? — 2G9 tons. 
 
 Were not 800 dollars a month paid 
 yon as demurrage? — 
 
 Mr. DENMAN objected to this 
 question, and wished the one on which 
 it was founded to be read. 
 
 (The short-hand writer said he had 
 sent away the book containing that 
 question ; but he repeated from memo- 
 ry the substance of the question and 
 of the answer as follows: — What are 
 you to have for coming here? — I must 
 have as a compensation for giving up 
 my ship and t;ade 800 dollars a month. 
 
n 
 
 TItlAL OF THE QtJEEX. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL.—I 
 wish to ask if that is more than an ade- 
 quate compensation for coining here, 
 io consequence of your ship being un- 
 employed? — I want to know whether 
 you mean a compensation for my ship 
 
 being unemployed, or for myself. 
 aiiswer 
 
 BROUGHAM.— That is his 
 
 ATTORNEY-GENERAL.—I ask 
 if that is more than an adequate com- 
 pensation for your ship being unem- 
 ployed? — The 800 dollars arc not so 
 much for the mere hiring of the ship, 
 bectinse we do not consider the hire of 
 the ship so much a« what wc could 
 make by our trade ; for the owners 
 allow ns to trade for ourselves, and we 
 may either gain or lose. 
 
 Are 800 dollars a-month an adequate 
 compensation for your trade? — I can- 
 not tell ; for if my speculation were to 
 succeed, I might gain a great deal 
 more, and if it were to fail, I might lose 
 a great deal more. 
 
 By Earl GREY.— Where is your 
 ship now ? — I left her at Messina. 
 
 Was it about to sail on any other 
 Toyage ? — No. 
 
 MHst it remain unemployed during 
 your absence ? — I don't know. 
 
 Is it possible it may be sent any 
 where by the other proprietors in the 
 usual course of trade? — Why not; be* 
 cause then they must put in another 
 captain, and that would injure my bu- 
 siness. 
 
 Then I am to understand that the 
 800 dollars a-month are a compensation 
 for your absence, and not for the ship 
 being unemployed?— ^For leaving the 
 ship, and neglecting my own trade. 
 
 Are you to have any share of the pro- 
 fitss of the ship during your absence? — 
 A fourth part of the profits of the ship 
 are my own, which is to be given me 
 after deductiug the ship's expences, but 
 I am not to have any share of the pri- 
 vate trade. 
 
 Are you, then, to have a share for 
 the freight, or for the merchandize, or 
 for bolii? — Not for the merchandize, 
 because I am not pres/ent. 
 
 How many sailors were there usually 
 on deck at night, during the voyage 
 from Jaffa? — Half of the crew for tour 
 hours, and the other half were at rest. 
 
 Am I then to understand that there 
 were never fewer than ten or eleven 
 men upon deck ?— Whenthe weather was 
 bad, all the crew wereon deck, but there 
 were never fewer than ten or eleven. 
 
 Are those men in the habit -of walk- 
 ing up down the deck? — Except the 
 man at the helm, and those who went 
 down to look after the hori^es, they did 
 walk up and down the deck. 
 
 Was there a passage by which they 
 could walk past the tent? — The tent' 
 occupied little more than one-half the 
 breadth of the ship. 
 
 Was there a passage by the side of 
 the tent from one end of ihe ship to the 
 otlfer? — On one side of the tent there" 
 was no passage, because it reached to 
 the side of the ship; but on the other 
 side there was a passage. 
 
 Were the men in the habit cf passing 
 the tent in the niglit-time ? — Whenever 
 there was occasion for the men to pass 
 in working the ship^ they did pass, but- 
 otherwise they remained on the fore-- 
 castle. 
 
 By the Marquis of LANSDOWN. 
 — You have said that the captain occa- 
 sionally ordered you to remove from 
 the deck, when he and the Princess- 
 and Bergami were on the deck, where 
 did you go to on these occasions ? — ■ ' 
 According to what the captain ordered 
 me. 
 
 Did he order you to go below, or 
 where? — Sometimes he told me to go 
 to the cabin, and sometimes to the fore- 
 castle, to take care the sailors did not 
 make a noise in the ship. 
 
 Was there any other person near 
 that part of the ship where the PrinV 
 cess's tent was placed but Bergami and 
 the Princess? — A division was made 
 by the great boat. 
 
 Whereabouts were the gun and the 
 bench of which you have spoken? — •' 
 The gun, as well as the bench, was in 
 the middle of the ship. 
 
 At the time you were, on some pre- 
 tence or other, directed by the captain 
 to remove from that purt of the deck, v 
 where her Royal Highness, Bergami, 
 and the captain were, were there any 
 other persons remaining near to the' 
 captain in that part of the vc'^sel? — As 
 soon as I went away, I could not see 
 what passing there. 
 
 [This question was read over again 
 to the witness, but he made no altera- ^ 
 tion in his answer.] 
 
 Were any other persons suffered to 
 remain on that part of the deck from 
 which you were sent away ?— Before I 
 went away, or after ? 
 
 Before you went away ? — At the mo- 
 ment I went away something was or- 
 defed for me to do, and I could not 
 
EVIDENCE OP GAETANO PATURZO. 
 
 75 
 
 - ,pay attention to Mhat was done, or to 
 wlio remained. 
 
 Was the vvoather calra or stormy at 
 tlie tmw wIkmi you saw her iioyal liigli- 
 wess and Ber<;uim reclining on the jfun? 
 —JLi it had hc« n stormy, tUey would 
 not have remained on deck : it was 
 summer-time, and fine weather: one 
 day we had a i.torm, and Ihey did not 
 come lip. 
 
 On tliat occasion was there much 
 motion in the vessel when they reclined 
 on the gun ? — During summer there 
 are only liijht airs, and they are fol- 
 lowed by calms : there is very little 
 motion, and it was calm when they 
 W£re silting there. 
 
 . By Lord ROSEBERRY.— -On the 
 voyage to Jaffa, the witness states that 
 ,there wasa eommunicationbelow from 
 .the t"nt : did that communication go 
 to any other part of the ship, or only 
 .to a particular place, from whence 
 there was no exit but through the tent ? 
 — ^Ivvill describeit. [The witness took 
 pen, ink, and paper, foe the purpose.] 
 
 I wish to know whether the commu- 
 nication you speak of was to any other 
 part of the ship, and if so, to what part ? 
 , —[The witness drew a rough plan of 
 the deck of the ship, which was ex- 
 plained by the interpreter to several 
 Peers near the bar. The witness point- 
 ed out some steps that led down into 
 the dining room.] 
 
 . Then when the tent was so placed, 
 . was it possible for any person to get 
 into the dining-room excepting through 
 the tent? — There was another place 
 >i»hich I marked. 
 
 By Lord AUCKLAND.— Had The- 
 odore Majochi any particular place as- 
 signed him in the ship? — Yes. 
 
 Where? — He had a hammock in the 
 hold ; but wherever he was more easy, 
 there he placed himself. 
 
 Could he from his sleeping-place 
 possibiy hear what, in the course of 
 the night, passed in the tent?— When 
 he slept in the hold I believe not, be- 
 j . cause the noise must have passed 
 through two decks. 
 
 By another Peer. — Did Tlieodore 
 Majochi sleep habitually in the hold, 
 or between decks? — [No answer was 
 given to this question.] 
 
 Did he sleep in the dining-room ? — I 
 do not know. 
 
 By Lord ELLENBOROUGH.— 
 Where did Bergami sleep in the voyage 
 from JafFji? — There were two beds in 
 the tent, and when the tent was open 
 
 it was seen that the small one was 
 Bergami's and the sofa was tlie Prin- 
 cess's. When the tent was closed, I 
 had no communication with the part 
 of the ship belonging to the Princess. 
 
 Had Bergami any other known place 
 of sleeping but the place on the deck ? 
 — Whether the Princess and Bergami 
 slept on the deck, I have not seen; 
 but what I know morally is, tliat the 
 Princess and Bergami slept in the 
 tent, because there were horses on 
 board, which made a great deal of 
 noise, and they said they could not 
 bear to ^leep below. 
 
 Where were the beds placed, used 
 by the Princess and Bergami, during 
 the voyage from Jaffa? — On the sofa 
 there was nothing but a single mattress 
 of thorPrincess's : the other mattresses 
 of the Princess were placed below. 
 
 You have said that the cabin was 
 divided into two, and that the bed of 
 Bergami was in the dining-room: where 
 were these identical beds placed on 
 the voyage from Jaffa? — The bed of 
 the Princess remained there, but I do 
 not remember as to the bed of Berga- 
 mi; when he got up it was rolled up, 
 for it had no bedstead, but was put v 
 down on tlie planks of the corridor, 
 and was rolled up in the morning. 
 
 If you would draw a plan of the 
 beds as they were on the voyage from 
 Jaffa, it w ould tend much to elucidate 
 the question. — (The witness did so ; 
 and after some tinie it was ejihibited 
 to the peers, who had assembled round 
 the witness. The interpreter explained 
 that the only alteration was the re- 
 moval of Bergami's bed from his room 
 to the dining-room near the door.) 
 
 Was Bergami's bed made for him 
 every night during the voyage from 
 Jaffa ? — As to that, I cannot tell what 
 happened in the apartments of the 
 Princess : I had other things to do. I 
 saw that the Princess's bed was there, 
 because I went to see the room cleaned. 
 
 Did other persons sleep where Ma- 
 jochi visually slept? — Yes; that is, 
 where xMajochi had his bed. 
 
 Did Cameron sleep in the same 
 place ? — Cameron slept in the cabin. 
 
 How many tents were there on the 
 journey to Jerusalem ?3:rl do not know ; 
 many; several ; as many as were suf- 
 ficient for so many as there were. 
 
 By the LORD-CHANCELLOR.— 
 Where did the female attendants of 
 the Princess sleep on tlie voyage from 
 Jaffa ? — The women had a cabin ; tb« 
 
76 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 other cal)in was a»sijjncd to the Coun- 
 tess Oldi; but 1 never went below, 
 aud therefore did not sec whether 
 -tliey slept there. 
 
 When the Princess had retired into 
 the tent, have you seen a lantern 
 handed out ? — Yes ; sometimes the 
 light was given out under the tent, 
 and sometimes it was conveyed below 
 by the communication I mentioned j 
 sometimes the sailors, sometimes The- 
 odore, and sometimes the captain him- 
 self, took it awav. 
 
 By Lord BELHAVEN.~Do you 
 know who gave out the light? — No ; 
 the lij;ht remained for some time in 
 the tent after it was properly arranged. 
 I did not remain near the tent beyond 
 the time when the tent was arranged. 
 
 Did any person sleep in the ^dining- 
 room during the voyage from Jaffa 'i — 
 Do you speak of what I have seen with 
 my own eyes? 
 
 *Mr. DENMAN objected to the wit- 
 ness being asked any question not con- 
 sistent with the rules of evidence : he 
 unwillingly interposed, but the witness 
 ought to speak only to matters within 
 his ownknowledi^e. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR con- 
 curred; it was always right in counsel 
 to suggest to the house, on any of the 
 questions put, if they thought them 
 objectionable. It might be recollected 
 that, in the Berkeley Peerage, their 
 lordships had decided that their ques- 
 tions should be regulated by the or- 
 dinary rules of evidence ; and they had 
 determined also to put their questions 
 after the advocates had concluded, on 
 the ground that the members of the 
 House were, in fact, counsel for both 
 parties — only anxious that justice 
 should be done. 
 
 Did you see any person sleep in the 
 dining-reom? — I do not know. 
 
 By Lord DARN LEY.— During the 
 %zxxi\i voyage did the Princess take off 
 her clothes or sleep in them? — For 
 what I know, the Princess and Ber- 
 gami slept on deck, for every body 
 said so ; but for what I have seen, I 
 have seen the Princess open the tent a 
 little, and she had a white gown, dress- 
 ing gown, or some gown, on ; she open 
 ed it first to take a morsel of air be- 
 fore the sun rose. 
 
 The first part of this answer was 
 struck out, at the suggestion of Lord 
 Liverpool, as being only matter of 
 hearsay. 
 
 By LprdELLENBOROUGH.-Did 
 
 you see Bergami look out of the tent 
 about the same time ? — No, because 
 the Princess opened it towards the 
 sea, just as little as to look out. 
 
 Was there any communication be- 
 tween the chamber of the Princess and 
 that of the Countess of Oldi when they 
 both slept dowifbclow ?— There was a 
 communication. ^ 
 
 Mr. DENMAN requested theirlord- 
 ships to supply an omission in his cross- 
 examination. The Lord-Chancellor 
 accordingly, at his »ug<:estion, put the 
 following questions :— 
 
 What is the name of your ship at 
 Messina? — II Vero Fidele. 
 
 Does she belong to Messina? — Yes. 
 
 What are the names of your partners 
 in the ship ? — Only Jacomo Milanesi. 
 
 By Lord LAUDERDALE.— From 
 your knowledge of the situation of the 
 dining-room and the tent, could any 
 person in the dining-room hf ar what 
 passed in the tent when it was shut up ? 
 — YVs, a person might hear well, pro- 
 vided they were words pronounced 
 with a certain force. 
 
 Here the examination of this witness 
 closed, and he was directed to with- 
 draw. 
 
 LIABILITY OF WITNESSES. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR said, 
 that before the house separated he 
 wished to state, that he had not failed 
 in his duty in applying to the highest 
 sources of infurm'ation on the point 
 how far prosecutions might be sup- 
 ported against witnesses examined ia 
 the course of this proceeding. He un- 
 derstood, most unquestionably, that 
 those prosecutions could be maintainr 
 ed ; but he had not put to the same 
 sources any question as to the effect of 
 the exercise of the privileges of the 
 house, should it interpose to prevent 
 the production of the iie.ce.ssary evi^ 
 deuce. It was material that the pub-f 
 lie mind should be satisfied upon this 
 matter; and another point of impor- 
 tance was, that in endeavouring to ac- 
 complish this purpose the house should 
 not lose sight of its privileges. A 
 third consideration was, that, in any 
 resolution named on this subject, it 
 should not be- implied thereby tliat 
 there would be any occasion to prose^ 
 cute the witnesses. He purposed to- 
 morrow to move the house to resolve, 
 in effect, that if there shall be occa- 
 sion for such prosecutions, the housQ 
 will suspend its privileges, aud uot in- 
 
EVIDENCE OF VINGENZO GARGIUJLO, 
 
 77 
 
 terpose to prrvent thetn ; meaning, at 
 tJu- s^nie time, to franie tliat resolu- 
 tion in such terms as to answer all the 
 * objects in view. 
 
 Adjourned at five o'clock. 
 
 THURSDAY, August 24th. 
 About a quarter before 10 o'clock the 
 LORD-CHANCKLLOR took his seat. 
 
 » THIRD WITNESS. 
 
 [A^INCENZO Gargiulo.] 
 f The Counsel bein^ introduced to the 
 bar in the usual form, a new witness 
 was called, viz. Vin<renzo Gargiulo. 
 
 The Earl of DARNLEY matle some 
 observations on the propriety of ascer- 
 taining whether witnesses when exa- 
 mined had any communication with the 
 other witnesses. 
 
 The witness was then swoni. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS did not intend to 
 state any thin«r which might seem to 
 arise from a wish to provoke a discus- 
 sion on any question which it might be 
 supposed their lordships had already 
 decided; but he wished to call their 
 attention to a point which he conceived 
 liad not yet been under their conside- 
 ration and consequently not in any de- 
 gree argued. He did not mean to say, 
 ■ that upon a witness being sworn it was 
 competent to institute a particular in- 
 quiry respecting his creed ; it was in 
 general held sutficient that he professed 
 a belief in a future state. But, on the 
 other hand, cases had occurred in which 
 the judges had held, that a person who 
 « appeared to give evidence in a court of 
 justice ought to be sworn in that mode 
 and with those ceremonies which were 
 most binding to his conscience. There 
 was a very important case on this sub- 
 ject in Cowper's Reports, which he 
 should briefly mention, as it was not 
 necessary for him to trouble their lord- 
 ships with the details. It was the case 
 of Omichund and Barker, in which a 
 • qneution arose, whether a person 
 Itavint; no idea of the Christian religion 
 could be a Competent witness at all, if 
 sworn in an English court. In consi- 
 dering this question, all the judges, 
 without exception, including also the 
 Lord - Chancellor, gave it as their 
 opinion oaths ought to be adminis- 
 tered to witnesses according to the 
 ceremonies of their own religion ; 
 and they went upon this ground — 
 that when a person was to be sworn, 
 it eughf to be with, those ceremonies 
 
 which he believed most binding on hia 
 conscience. In that case, which is 
 referred to in Cowper's Reports, the 
 Chief-Justice and the other judges held 
 that upon the principles of the common 
 law, there was no particular form essen- 
 tial to an oath to be taken by a witness; 
 but that, as the purpose of it was to 
 bind his conscience, "every man of 
 every religion should be bound by that 
 form which he thinks will bind hi« 
 conscience most." If a Chinese, or a 
 Gentoo, or a Mahometan, took an oath 
 according to the forms of English 
 courts, he probably would "not think it 
 the most binding to his conscience. 
 He conceived that this view of the sub- 
 ject was very important; for if a wit- 
 ness were sworn in a way different 
 from that to which he is accustomed ia 
 his own country, the effect might be 
 that of relieving his conscience from 
 the actual obligation of an oath. I|: 
 was therefore proper, whatever might 
 be the religion of the witness, whether 
 Chinese, Gentoo, Mahometan, that he 
 should swear in the manner which was 
 likely to be most binding on his con- 
 science. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR ob- 
 served, that if the witness believed the 
 form in which he was sworn binding 
 on him to speak the truth, that was 
 sufficient, and he could not be exami- 
 ned on that point further. If he did 
 not believe in a future state, in that 
 case he would not be a competent wit- 
 ness at all. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS admitted that, ge- 
 nerally speaking, no farther question 
 could be put, if the witness acknow- 
 ledged the oath he took to be binding. 
 He knew that Mr. Justice BuUer had 
 refused to allow a witness to be asked 
 whether he believed in the Gospel 
 when he had acknowledged that he 
 believed in a future state : but this did 
 not apply to the present objection. 
 He apprehended that the counsel ia 
 this important case had a right to in- 
 quire of the witness whether, accord- 
 ing to the mode of swearing in his ovra. 
 country under the forms of law to which 
 he was accustomed, there were not cer- 
 tain ceremonies which he believed t'> 
 be essential to the adrainistiation of an 
 oath, and the want of which would be 
 regarded by him as an important defi- 
 ciency. It surely would never be 
 thought sufficient to swear a Gentoo 
 upon the Gospel. He thought, there- 
 fore, that he might be permitted to ask 
 
78 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 the witness witether he did not think 
 the mode of adininisteiinp: an oath in 
 hit) own country ncctssary. lie did 
 not mean to impugn the witness's reli- 
 j^ious belief: he only wislicd to know 
 whether, in the languai^e of Chief-Jus- 
 tice Parker, iu the case to which he had 
 referred, the witness had been ** most 
 solemnlv sworn." 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM quoted the case 
 in Cowper to which we have already 
 referred. Lord Mansfield, in citing; 
 the case of Oniichr.nd and Barker, liad 
 htated that the principle was then ad- 
 mitted, that every man of every reli- 
 gion should be bound by that form 
 which he thought would bind his con- 
 science most, lie would suppose the 
 case Of an Englishman in Turkey or in 
 China called on to sive evidence in a 
 criminal case, as a Chinese some years 
 ago had been at the Admiralty sessions 
 held at the Old Bailey. On that occa- 
 sion a porcelain saucer was given to 
 the Chinese, which he held up ; and on 
 some words being repeated by the in- 
 terpreter, he threw it down and broke 
 it. This was the form of the most so- 
 lemn imprecation in his own country, 
 and on that account the judges held it 
 to be a proper mode of an adminiuis- 
 tering an oath. Now suppose an 
 Englisli seaman were to have a saucer 
 put into his hand in a Chinese court, 
 and were desired to go through such a 
 ceremony as that to which he had allu- 
 ded, would it be reasonable to regard 
 that mode of administering an oath 
 sufficiently solemn in his eyes, because, 
 from respect to the court, or from other 
 motives, he did not object to be sworn? 
 He might indeed think the oath bind- 
 ing, but would it not be wiser in the 
 Court to swear him, not in the manner 
 iwhich he said was sufficient, but in that 
 which they knew he held to b&most 
 binding to his conscience? 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR wished 
 the counsel to state to the house the 
 nature of the questions they wished put 
 to the witness. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS wished him to be 
 asked whether he had ever been exa- 
 mined as a witness in his own country. 
 If he had not, whether he had ever 
 seen any person so examined; whether 
 there were any ceremonies used in his 
 own country in administering an oath 
 which had not been observed here, 
 and which he thought binding on his 
 conscience. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR, after 
 
 consulting for some time with the 
 judges, said that the witness might be 
 asked whether he considered the oath 
 whicli had how been aduiinistertd to 
 him finally binding on his conscience; 
 but that no other questions could be 
 asked. 
 
 .Lord feRSKINE agreed that the 
 legal question was, v.'hethcr the oath 
 taken by the witr.ess was binding on 
 his conscience? His lordship stated, in 
 iliustration, a case in wlwch he ImJ 
 been himself contrerned; but the par- 
 ticulars could be collected below the 
 bar. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM wished it to be 
 understood that the objection was not 
 made because it was expected '..he wit- 
 ness might sci-y he was not bound, but 
 because it was desirable to ascertain 
 whether there was any other form by 
 which he might be more bound. 
 
 Lord ER8KINE, as we understapd, 
 thought that it might be asked the wit- 
 ness whether tire oath he had now 
 taken, or any other, would be most 
 biuding. 
 
 Earl GREY proposed to have it pet 
 to him whether any other form of oath 
 would be more binding on his consci- 
 ence. 
 
 Lord REDESD ALE said, if the 
 mode in which the oath had been ad- 
 ministered to the witness was wrong, 
 then all the foreign witnesses that had 
 given evidence in courts of justice, in 
 his experience, had been improperly 
 sworn. 
 
 Earl GREY proposed to refer it to 
 the judges whether the M-ilness might 
 not be asked if there was any other 
 mode of swearing which he thought 
 more binding on his conscience. 
 
 The LOkD-CHANCELLOR put 
 the question in this form — Whether, in 
 a witness has been asked in the courts 
 below whether he conssders an oath 
 which has been administered to him 
 binding ou his conscience, he can also 
 be asked whether any. other mode 
 would be more binding. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE and the LORD- 
 CHANCELLOR made a few observa- 
 tions which we could not hear. The 
 latter alluded to the case of a witness 
 objecting to the form of the oath him- 
 self, as had sometimes been done by 
 persons from Scotland who refused to 
 kiss the book. Here, however, the 
 witness made no objection to tlie form. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL believed 
 that questions could only witli j>ro- 
 
EVIDENCE OF VINCEN20 CARGITJLO. 
 
 79 
 
 prioty be put to a witness when be 
 himself rofn-ed to take the oath. It 
 appeared to htm^that it woukl be quite 
 iriei^nlar to put any question of tlie 
 nature proposed when the witness 
 made no objection to the form of the 
 oath himself. 
 
 Here there was a cry of " Go on ! 
 gt> on !" 
 
 The question bcinj; delivei-ed to the 
 Judges, they withdrew to doliberate. 
 
 Thtj Earl of DARNLEY expressed 
 an anxious desire to know whether any 
 adequate means were taken by those 
 who had the care of the witnesses to 
 prevent their association and inter- 
 communication after their examination 
 at the bar. He thought it highly de- 
 sirable that a witness Kointi from their 
 lordships* bar should not^ be suffered 
 to converse upon the cviuence he had 
 ifiven amonj; the other witnesses who 
 iwid not been examined. 
 
 The Earl of LIVEKPOOL replied, 
 tliat he could not see how it was pos- 
 sible so to keen ^'•^ witnesses as to 
 prevent their associating together oc- 
 casionally ; all that could be done was 
 done ; which was, to separate the par- 
 ties as much as was possible, and the 
 person who had the care of each set of 
 witnesses to give them the strongest 
 injunction not to converse together in 
 any manner upon tlje subject of this 
 trial, or any evidence connected with 
 ft. He was perfectly sure nothing else 
 could be done beyond what he had 
 mentioned. 
 
 The Earl of D/VRNLEY said he 
 was not convinced by wbat had fallen 
 from the noble earl but that still some 
 arrangement might be adopted to jno- 
 mote the object he bad in view. Surely 
 the examined could be kept apart 
 from the unexamined. Injunction with- 
 out separation he considered perfectly 
 useless. If it were not right and prac- 
 ticable to keep the witnesses separate, 
 the solemnity of an injunction to them 
 not to converse upon the evidence war' 
 ludicrous. The real object could 
 never be effected but by separation, 
 and he still Uiought that was* practi- 
 cable. 
 
 Tli« Earl of LlVEtlPOOL perse- 
 vered in repeating, that it wa» abso- 
 lutely impossible to carry into cfTect 
 that complete separation which the 
 tioble earl called for. To ask the wit- 
 nesses on either side not to associate 
 together in any manner was altogether 
 impossiblt. Let tlieir- lordships just 
 
 consider for a moment the ordinary 
 course respecting Avitnesses at the com- 
 mon assize. Did they not always find 
 that the witnesses at either side, if they 
 came from the same part of the coun- 
 try, generally associated togeth<?r at, 
 the same inn ? In fact it was quite un- 
 avoidable. The advantage or disad- 
 vantage of the practice, whichever way 
 it turned, was mutual ; both sides of 
 course had. it. There was nothing else 
 than an injunction to the witnesses 
 which could be accomplished ; for an 
 absolute separation, so as to exclude 
 the possibility of their conversing to- 
 gether at one moment or another, and 
 ujore particularly when applied to 
 .strangers, was, he must repeat, altoi- 
 gether impracticable. 
 
 The Earl of DARNLEY said, tlrat 
 the only answer he had to give the 
 noble earl's attempt at making any 
 analogy between what was done here 
 with witnesses, and what was done at 
 the ordinary assize, was this — that 
 there was no resemblance between the 
 present mode of proceeding and any 
 other which ever took place. 
 
 The Earl of ESSEX trusted thata* 
 much care as was possible should be 
 taken to prevent the witnesses from 
 conversing respecting the evidence ai-^ 
 ready given. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, 
 they were already enjoined to abstain 
 from conversing respecting it. 
 
 The Earl of HARROWBY con- 
 curred in opinion with his noble friend 
 who spoke last, that an absolute sepa- 
 ration of the witnesses was actually im- 
 possible. The inconvenience alhided 
 to was certainly mutual, and utterly 
 unavoidable. 
 
 The Earl of DARNLEY could not 
 help trespassing upon their lordship* 
 with one word more. Two individuals 
 had been already examined; ought not 
 their lordships to state that they should 
 be separated from the other witnesses 
 at present? He trusted, at least, that 
 Theodore Majochi should not be per- 
 mitted to have free intercourse with 
 IMadame Dumont (a laugh), of whom 
 lie had spoken in his evidenc(». He 
 merely wished that they should not be 
 permitted to communicate togethc|,\ 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR said 
 he should take this opportunity of sub- 
 mitting to their lordships such a reso- 
 lution as he had mentioned yesterday. 
 tit would read it, and their lordships 
 could, then determine upon its applt" 
 
80 
 
 TllIAL OP THE QUEEN. 
 
 cation to the purpose for which it was 
 framed. 
 
 On themotion of the LORD-CHAN- 
 CELLOR, the following resolution 
 was agreed to : — 
 
 "That in case any prosecutions shall 
 be commenced in any courts after the 
 conclusion of the proceedings in this 
 house, touching the bill entitled ' an 
 act' (reciting the title), against any 
 witness or witnesses who shall have 
 been examined at the bar of this house 
 in support of or against the said bill, 
 touching any testimony given by such 
 witness or vvitnesses at the bar of this 
 house in respect thereto, this house, 
 any privileges of this house notwith- 
 standing, consents that evidence may 
 be given thereof in any such prosecu- 
 tions, and also that evidence may be 
 given of all such proceedings of this 
 house, touching the said bill, as may be 
 required to be given in the said courts 
 in support of, or in defence, in such 
 prosecutions." 
 
 The judges returned after an ab- 
 sence of twenty minutes, and the Ghief- 
 Justice of the Khig's-Bench (Apboti) 
 informed the house, that the judges 
 Kow present had considered the ques- 
 tions submitted for their opinion by 
 their lordships, viz. — 
 
 " If a witness produced in the courts 
 of law, without objecting to it, takes 
 the oatli in the usual form in which it 
 is administered, he can be asked whe- 
 ther he considers the oath he has taken 
 as binding upon his conscience ? — and 
 ■svhether he can be asked, whether any 
 other mode of swearing would be more 
 binding on his conscience than the 
 oath he has taken ? 
 
 " Tlie judges were of opinion, re- 
 specting the first question, that, al- 
 though a witness should have taken 
 the oath in the usual form, he may, ne- 
 vertheless, be afterwards asked whe- 
 tlier he thinks it is binding upon his 
 conscience. But that, if the witness 
 shall answer in the atfirmative, that he 
 tliinks the oath he has so taken is bind- 
 ing in the manner in which it has been 
 administered to him, he cannot then 
 be asked if any other mode of admi- 
 nistering the oath would bemorebind- 
 ing. The judges were of opinion, that 
 if aVitness says he believes the oath 
 to be binding in the manner in which 
 he has taken it, he in fact solemnly 
 swears to speak the truth in his evi- 
 dence ; he appeals to the Divine Being 
 for the truth he is about to utter j and 
 
 having done tliat, it i« unneccf>'?aTy to- 
 in(|uire respecting any other mode of 
 swearing." 
 
 The CHIEF-JLSTICE, in deliver- 
 ing this opinion, said that the judges 
 had, in considering their opinion, had 
 occasion to consult the authorities in 
 some of the books, wliich was the oc- 
 casion of their having detained their 
 lordships a short time longer than they 
 otherwise would have done. 
 
 The examination of the witness was 
 now commenced by the SOLICITOR- 
 GENERAL. 
 
 Were you master of the vessel called 
 La Industria? — Yes. 
 
 Are you also the owner? — Yes, I am 
 also t(ie owner, but she is no longer 
 called the Industry, but Abramo 
 (Abraham). 
 
 Was she e^igaged to convey the 
 Princess in her voyage from Augusta 
 to Tunis, and to Greece r — My polacre 
 was hired at Mes<;ina, where she was 
 armed, and her Royal Highness em- 
 barked at Augusta for Tunis and 
 Greece, 
 
 Before her Royal Highness embark- 
 ed, had the arrangement of the cabins 
 been made by yon ? — Yes, at Messina. 
 
 Tell me whether the Princess and 
 Bergarai came on board at Augusta 
 before they embarked, for the purpose 
 of seeing the disposition of the cabins. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS objected to tliis 
 mode of putting the question. Sarely 
 the Solicitor-General could obtain an 
 answer without putting a question in 
 a leading form. How could the wit- 
 ness know for what purpose the Prin- 
 cess and Berjrami came on board ? 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL dis- 
 claimed any intention of putting a 
 leading question, and then asked the 
 witness, 
 
 Did the Princess and Bergami come 
 on board, and where ? — They did, at 
 Augusta. 
 
 Did her Royal Highness view the 
 arrangement of the cabins which h»d 
 been made by the witness? — Yes, the. 
 Princess did. 
 
 Did she make any alteration in your) 
 arrangement? — Yes, she ordered a^ 
 dining-room door to be closed, which I) 
 had left in its common state. 
 
 Before that, how many doors en- 
 tered into the dining-room from the 
 body of the vessel? — Twoj one to the 
 right, the other to the left. 
 
 Which of the two did she order 
 to be closed ? — That on the left, as 
 
EVIDENCE OP VINOENZO OAllGIULO. 
 
 81 
 
 you look towards the pMw of the 
 vessel. 
 
 In what way was that door closed ? 
 7— It was nailed up fast. 
 
 Was there awy cabin contiguous to 
 th^ dining-room where that door was 
 nailed ivp? — Yes, there was. 
 
 Where was that cabin to which you 
 allude t — It went on a line or in the di- 
 -rection of the left side of the ship. 
 
 Mho occyf>ied the cabin near the 
 door which was nailed up? — Bergami. 
 
 Was there any other cabin ? — Yes. 
 
 Who occupied that? — The two maids 
 Dumont and Brunette. 
 
 AV'ho occu|>ied the cabin at the op- 
 posite side of the door that you say 
 was left open? — Bergami; that was 
 his. 
 
 Was there any mode of going into 
 the dinin<;-room from the body of the 
 vessel, save by that door which was 
 open near Bergami ? — There w<is ; the 
 end of the ladder from the deck vrcnt 
 into it, and the door which led to Ber- 
 garai's room. 
 
 Ask him whether the ladder wcntdi- 
 rectly down into the dining-room, or 
 •was there a door at the foot of it ? — 
 The ladder came into the room ; but at 
 the top of the hatchway was a door, 
 which, when willing (a laugh) might 
 be shut up. 
 
 You mean to close the hatchway ? 
 — Yes, to close the hatchway, and stop 
 all communication that way. 
 
 When thathatcijway was closed, was 
 there any door into the dining-room r 
 —No. 
 
 Beyond the dining-room towards the 
 stem of the vessel, how many cabins 
 were there ? — There was one room, di- 
 vided, as I have mentioned, for the 
 Princess, and for the maids of honour. 
 
 What sort of bed was the Princess's? 
 was it single or donble ? — It was doa- 
 ble. Two sofas joined together, about 
 «ix <or seven palms and a half (about 
 six feet and a half). 
 
 Where was Bergami's apartment ? — 
 He first slept in a cabin two nights, 
 but afterwards he slept in the dining- 
 room, upon a sofa, on the right hand. 
 
 Was it so situated that a person in 
 the Princess's bed, lying down, could 
 l»e seen from it? — Yes, if the door was 
 open. 
 
 How many English feet, or about 
 how many, were the beds asunder r — 
 Ten or twelve feet I should think. 
 . Did any body sleep in and beyond 
 the diniog-room, towards the stern, 
 il 
 
 exoept the Princess, the Countess of 
 Oldi, and Bergami? — No; Bergami 
 slept in the dining-room, the. Princess 
 in the room on the right hand, and the 
 dame dhonneur on the left. 
 
 Did this occupation continue during 
 the greater part of the voyage ? 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS objected to this 
 mode of putting the question. It 
 was to lead the witness. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, 
 that wherever any question Avas ma- 
 terial, he was anxious to avoid leading 
 the witness. 
 
 How long did that occupation of the 
 births continue? — In June the Prin- 
 cess came on board; at the departure 
 from Constantinople, the weather com- 
 ing warmer, the Princess chose to sleep 
 on a bed in a tent on the deck. Seven 
 horsos and two asses were taken on 
 board and put below about that time. 
 
 What bed or beds were placed on 
 the deck under this tent of which yon 
 have spoken ? — A sofa for the Princessr, 
 and a travelling bed of hel' Royal High> 
 ness's was put up for Bergami. 
 
 Did Bergami sleep there ? — Yes ; 
 under the tent, together (insieme) with 
 the Princess, in two ditferent beds. 
 
 The interpreters did not seem to 
 agree upon the translation of the wit- 
 ness's answer, and the counsel inter- 
 fered, when 
 
 The Marchese diSpinetto(the inter- 
 preter examining the witness) said 
 that the word used by the witness was 
 insieme, which was an adverb, and did 
 not mean at all to imply that the par- 
 ties were sleeping together; it was 
 therefore that the witness added, " in 
 two different beds :" insieme also 
 meant " likewise." ■ 
 
 The question was repeated to the 
 witness, who answered, " Bergami 
 slept under that tent where the Prin- ' 
 cess slept; they had two different 
 beds." 
 
 Here a Peer observed, that the 
 Queen's interpreter seemed constantly 
 to talk to the other. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said it was his 
 duty to do so in obedience to the order 
 of their lordships, who desired the one 
 interpreter to act as a check upon the 
 other. 
 
 It was replied by the Peer viho 
 made the remark, that when the check 
 was to be given, it ought to be formalH 
 given, so as to itttract the attention of 
 their lordships. 
 
 How long <lid Berganii continiHi to 
 
99 
 
 TltlAL OF THE QUEEJT. 
 
 •Ifep in such a manner ?— Until they 
 landed at Porto Lanjw). 
 
 Ask hhn whether at night the tent 
 iw as open or closed ?— At night it was 
 closed as a pavilion. 
 
 Who usually closed it ? — I was com- 
 manded to close it, and I commanded 
 <rtliers. 
 
 Was it so close as to exclude any 
 person outside from seeing what passed 
 within, or was it partially open ? — It 
 -was quite closed ; when 1 could not 
 Hose it with curtains entirely, I did it 
 with other pieces. 
 
 What do you mean by saying with 
 otlicr pieces ? — I mean with other 
 pieces of tlie same material as the 
 
 tCJit. 
 
 When was the tent usually opened 
 in the morning to admit air ? — I think 
 about eight o'clock. 
 
 At the times when the tent was 
 opened, the witness being present, 
 where wasBergami? — Under the tent, 
 coming out. 
 
 Was he entirely dressed, or in what 
 manner? — I have always seen him en- 
 tirely dressed. 
 
 In what species of dress bate you 
 seen him i — Upon deck he went in a 
 Grecian dress of silk, which he bought 
 at St. Jean D'Acre ; when he went on 
 ^hore he was dressed in a coat, or as a 
 colonel. 
 
 After the tent was closed at night in 
 tfce manner you have described, was 
 a^y light, generally, or occasionally, 
 left in it r — No. 
 
 , I am not asking you whether a light 
 remaintfd in the tent during the night, 
 but whether there was a light tlierc 
 at the time when it was closed ? — When 
 tisc tent was closed there was a light; 
 if it was light airs or no win4, the light 
 vtfis given out on deck ; if it blew 
 strung, the light was carried away by 
 tfie ladder. 
 
 Can von remember who was in the 
 habit of taking the light from out of 
 tlie tent at the time it Avas so delivered 
 out? — Whoever was present: some- 
 tim^js I took it myself. 
 
 To the best of your recollection, 
 bovr long did the light commonly re- 
 Bi.aiH within the tent after it was closed ? 
 — Ten or twelve minutes, perhaps ; a 
 little time. 
 
 Do you know w ho commonly handed 
 out the light?— Bergarai. 
 ,. Do you remember whether, in the 
 d«y time, the Princess sometimes sat 
 or lay on the bed under \^\e, tent ? — 
 
 Often. She ordered that the teirt 
 might remain as a pavilion ; becan»<e 
 iA the morning it was raised as a ceul- 
 hig. 
 
 Where did the Princess take her 
 siesta? ■ 
 
 The interpreter professed himself 
 unable to explain the term siesta. 
 
 The witness has said that the Prin- 
 cess often lay upon the bed under the 
 tent during the day: did she do so 
 after dinner? — Yes. 
 
 Have you ever seen Bergami there 
 at the same time ? — Yes. 
 In the day? — Yes. 
 
 Have you ever received directions 
 in the day-time, when the Princess and 
 Bergami \vere under the tent, to close 
 it? — Yes. 
 
 Have you closed the tent, by direc- 
 tion, when the Princess and Bergami 
 were within it? — Yes. 
 
 I have asked if yon did this after 
 dinner : have you done it frequently, or 
 only seldom? — In a day I cannot sav 
 frequently or seldom; but in a week 
 three or four times. 
 
 With Bergami and the Princess both 
 inside the tent? — Yes, both. 
 
 Can you tell ns how long, upon sireh 
 occasions, the tent remained closed?— 
 Sometimes a quarter of an hour; some* 
 times half an hour, or an hour. 
 
 In closing the tent upon those occa- 
 sions have you ever seen the Princes* 
 and Bergami both upon their beds? 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS objected. The 
 question, he thought, should be, where 
 have you seen them? 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL had 
 no objection to put two questions in- 
 stead of one, if Mr. Williams wished 
 it. 
 
 At the time of so closing the tent b« 
 has seen the Princess upon her bed ?— 
 Sometimes upon the bed, and some- 
 times standing. 
 
 And Bergami ? — For the most part 
 lying upon the small bed. 
 
 Did you close the tent, leaving them. 
 so? — I did. 
 
 Have you afterwards seen Bergami 
 come out of the tout? — Yes. 
 
 In what position have you seen Ber- 
 gami lying upon the bed? On his 
 back, or on his side, or how? — Upon 
 his back. 
 
 Do you remember, upon any occa- 
 sion when Bergami was so lying, re^ 
 ceiving directions from the Princess t**' 
 close the lent ? — I remember that Ber- 
 gami was lyiu^ on hU baekupo^i the 
 
EVIDENCE OF VINCENZO GARGIULO. 
 
 83 
 
 brdf and her Royal Highness sitting 
 near him: Schiavini was walking near 
 the tent on the opposite side ; he re- 
 ceived orders from the Princess to 
 rlose the teut, and delivered those or- 
 ders to me. 
 
 And, in consequence of those orders, 
 >o^ closed the tent in the manner you 
 have described ? — Yes. 
 
 Do you remember Bcrgami after- 
 wards coming out of the tcuf? — Yes. 
 
 In about how long? — At different 
 times ; sometimes a quarter of an hour, 
 Jialf an hour, an hour. 
 
 But I ask, if upon the particular oc- 
 easion to which he has referred, that 
 wf being directed by Schiavini to close 
 the tent, he remembers Bergami com- 
 iugx)ut, and how long it was before he 
 came out? — About a quarter of an 
 hour. 
 
 Did the Princess ever take a bath on 
 board the vessel? — Yes. 
 
 More than once? — More than once. 
 
 Do you remember her going below 
 for that purpose? — Yes. 
 
 Wlio went below with her? — Ber- 
 fami. 
 
 Upon all the occasions when the 
 Princess went below to take the bath, 
 was she or not accompanied by Ber- 
 gami? — Always, not only for the bath, 
 but for every thing she did. For any 
 other thing she did. 
 
 Were there any other occasions 
 vhich rendered it necessary for the 
 J'rincess to go below? — The greatest 
 
 reason was for going to the , 
 
 •which was below. 
 
 And for whatever purpose the Prin- 
 cess went below she was accompanied 
 by Bergami ? — Yes. 
 
 Have you ever seen Bergami sitting 
 Kpon deck ? — Yes. 
 
 Have you ever seen the Princess 
 with him there? — I have. I have seen 
 Bergami sitting upon a gun, and the 
 Princess sitting upon his knee, and 
 kissing each other. 
 
 Has this kissing, to your knowledge, 
 happened once or more than once ? — I 
 taw it more than once. 
 
 When the Princess walked, whose 
 arm did she take, or did she take the 
 arm of any one? — She took for the 
 most part the left arm of Bergami ; 
 nay, always, for I never saw her take 
 the arm of any one else. 
 • Did you ever during the voyage see 
 any jokes or tricks played by Berga- 
 jwi ? — I have. 
 
 In the presence of the Priaccu ?-«Yesi 
 
 Can you describe what you allude 
 to? — I saw him put some pillows pr 
 cushions under his Grecian robe, to 
 make her lioyal Highness laugh. 
 
 Upon what part were those cushions 
 placed? — Upon his belly. 
 
 Do you know what that was in- 
 tended to imitate ? 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS had no objectloo 
 that the witness should describe facts 
 aslongas the Solicitor-General pleased ; 
 but to draw inferences was, he appre- 
 hended, the province of their lordships. 
 The SOLICITOR GENERAL 
 thout^ht his question a fair one. 
 
 The LORD - CHANCELLOR. -^ 
 Ask the witness if he knows what was 
 meant to be represented. 
 
 Do you know what was meant to be 
 represented ? — He wanted to play some 
 apish trick to make her Royal High- 
 ness laugh, and the people who were 
 present. 
 
 The SOLICITOR GENERAL.— 
 That is not an answer. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS.— It is not the an- 
 swer, I suppose, which my learned 
 friend wants ; and in that ease, oi 
 course, the question must be put 
 again. 
 
 Do yon know what those cushions 
 were intended to imitate? — As far as 
 I know, it was buffoonery. 
 
 After the tent was erected upon 
 deck, where was the Princess in the 
 habit of dining ? — Under the tent. 
 
 Who commonly dined with her ? — 
 Generally, Bergami. — Always Ber- 
 gami. 
 
 Did the Princess and Bergami com- 
 monly dine alone or with some other 
 person ?• — Sometimes they dined alone ; 
 sometimes with William Austin, who 
 was reported to be tUe son of the 
 Princess. 
 
 How was William Austin called, 
 cither by the Princess or in her pre- 
 sence? — Some called him " WilUani,* 
 some called him, '* the young Prince,* 
 and somethnes I have seen the Prin- 
 cess when he was going to bed give 
 hi)n some token of affection, as a mo- 
 ther would give her child. 
 
 While the Princess and Bergami 
 slept under this tent at night, where 
 did Victorine sleep? — The room of the 
 maids contained two beds, and when 
 the Princess went to sleep in the tent, 
 one of the maids slept in the former 
 room of the Princess, and Victorine 
 with her. 
 
 That was in the cabin of the Frin 
 
8^ 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUBENi 
 
 ces.-*, below, adjoinincf the dining-room 
 you before described ? — Yes. 
 
 What is the Christian name of Ucr- 
 gami ? — ^Kartholomi w. , 
 
 Do you remember the festival of St. 
 Bfirtholomew occurring in the course 
 of the voyage? — I remember it was on 
 the voyage from Syracuse to the Holy 
 Land; and there was a general illumi- 
 nation as far as possible in the ship. 
 Hergami made the crew merry, and 
 they got drunk : he gave a dollar apiece 
 to each of the sailors. ' i 
 
 Do you remember any shouts? — 
 Yes, when the sailors were' drunk they 
 •houted, Viva Caroliua! Viva Ber- 
 gami! 
 
 During this time, what were the 
 Princess and Bergami doing? were 
 they together.? — Bergami was walking 
 the deck, ap^plauding the sailors ; the 
 Princess was sitting under the tent, 
 which was raised like a ceiling. 
 
 Do you remember if the Princess 
 was walking about at that time? — I 
 remember her also walking, for she 
 could not always be sitting. 
 
 With whom did she walk.? — With 
 Bergami. 
 
 Did they walk side by side, or arm 
 Inarm? — Arm in arm. 
 
 Do you remember Bergami landing 
 atTerracina? — I saw him embark in 
 the launch which I sent on shore ; and 
 I saw the launch return without him. 
 
 How long was he absent ?— Three 
 days. 
 
 What time of d^y or night was it 
 that he returned ; — During the night, 
 at Porto Lanzo. 
 
 . Can you mention the hour? — Ten 
 o'clock. 
 
 Was the Princess on board at that 
 time? — She was on board, sitting under 
 the tent. 
 
 Where did Bergami go on his com- 
 ing first on board? — The Princess 
 went to meet him at the top of the 
 ladder, and they both went under the 
 tent. 
 
 Was the tent afterwards close<^ ? — 
 
 They supped together. Afterwards the 
 
 tent was dosed, and they went to lie. 
 
 Did they remain in the tent all 
 
 night ?— Yes. 
 
 j)id the witness go on shore at JatFa 
 or at St. Jean d'Acre.? — I have landed 
 at both places. 
 
 Did you go on the journey to Jeru- 
 salem ?— No. 
 
 No part? — I saw her Royal High- 
 He&s moiuit, and then I went on board. 
 
 At the return of Bergami on hosirtf 
 the vessel, do you remember whether 
 he had any new order or title on his 
 return from Jerusalem? — Yes; the 
 Order of St. S< puUhre. 
 
 Anv other? — No; but on board vras 
 crea.ttd tlic order of St. Carolhae, 
 which had been spoken of at Jerusa- 
 lem. 
 
 Do you know, fi om any thing which 
 you have heard, either from the Prin- 
 cess, or in her presence, what rank 
 Bergami had in the order of St. Caro- 
 line ? — He was Grand Master of the 
 order. 
 
 Have you ever been e.amined in 
 Italy by any person as to tt!> conduct 
 of the Princess and Bt ru ' >u during 
 this voyage? — Yes. 
 
 At v;hat place?— At Mi iyn. 
 
 Do you know the name of the gen- 
 tlemen by whom, or before whom, you 
 were examined r-r-By the Advocate 
 Vimarcati, in the presence of Colonel 
 Brown. 
 
 At what time were you examined? — • 
 In December last. 
 
 Where did you go after your exami- 
 nafion? — ^To Naples. 
 
 Did you go upon your own affairs ? 
 — Yes, 
 
 Were you afterwards applied to to 
 com e he r e t — Y^e s . 
 
 Where were you at that time ? — ^At 
 Naples. 
 
 When were you applied to.? — On 
 the 21 st of June. I thought the jour- 
 ney too long for my health, havinij the 
 gout; and I presented to the ministers 
 a certificate of two physicians, m order 
 to exempt myself. The misiisters com- 
 manded me to come, and also made me 
 to be commanded hy the minister for 
 foreign affairs, the Marquis Chirnalla. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS objected to these 
 questions, as benig propej only in re- 
 examination. 
 
 THE LORD - CHANCELLOR 
 thought that the questions had better 
 not be put. 
 
 TheSOLIClTOR-GENERALwould 
 only put one question more. Where is 
 your vessel now? — On a voyage from 
 Apulia to Naples. 
 
 CROSS EXAMINATION. 
 Cross examined by Mr. WILLIAMS. 
 — When did you leave the ship in order 
 to come here'?— I have left off sailing, 
 and given myself to trade, so that my 
 ship was loaded on my own account, 
 
CnoSS-EXAMINATIpN OF VINCENZO GARGIULO. 
 
 S5 
 
 «nd that ship is now commanded by 
 another captain. 
 
 What ship do yon allnde to?— The 
 same ship that carried her Royal High- 
 ness. 
 
 What is the name of the captain ? — 
 The ship is now commanded by Giaco- 
 mo Pallusterzo. 
 
 If I understand the witness rightly, 
 he is now a part owner, or owner of 
 the vessel, and not the captain? — I am 
 owner of the ship, and when I came 
 here half the carco was my own. 
 
 If I nnderstand him, he said that a 
 certain person, whom he named, is 
 captain of that vessel now? — Giacomo 
 Pallust( rzo is captain, the person w horn 
 I have appointed. 
 
 I desne the witnes.s to Ray, from 
 twhat place in Italy he did come to 
 £n;vland ? — ^I came from Naples. 
 . Is that the place to which you be- 
 long ? is that your tovA'n? — Naples is 
 my native country, but I dwell at Porto 
 Sorrento, a plaCe on the coast. 
 
 Say who it was that asked you to 
 come here. — The podesta (governor) 
 sent a messenj^er to bind me, be- 
 cause my comnjercial aftairs called me 
 to Naples. 
 
 Did von see the British minister at 
 Naples*?— I did. 
 
 Name him.— Sir AVm. A'Court: he 
 is the English Ambassador. 
 
 Did you receive any promise of remu- 
 neration ?— Yes, I have. 
 
 I want to know whether it was at 
 the Minister's? — During the five days 
 I had been at Naples endeavouring not 
 to come here, I told all my cin um- 
 Btanccs to the Minister; and the Minis- 
 ter, being convinced of my situation, 
 agreed to allow nic 1,000 dollars a 
 month ; but I have already lost 4,000. 
 The cargo I had discharged at Reggio 
 has not sold at the price for which it 
 ought to have sold. I had, besides, 
 advanced money at Manfredonia to 
 buy another cargo, whicli has remained 
 unemployed ; and the Minister gave 
 the the assurance at the last moment I 
 set out. 
 
 How often have you traded to Eng- 
 land before ? — Three months ago I was 
 in J^ngland ; never before that time. 
 I have been here only once until the 
 present time. . 
 
 Have you received any money in ad- 
 vance, or is it only in expectancy? — I 
 tare received ],000 dollars for one 
 ttionth. I have recftived one month in 
 advance at Milan. 
 
 I understood the witness to say, that 
 he no longer goes with the vessel, but 
 that he has put a captain on board : 
 how is it that the captain cannot ma- 
 nage the vessel without him? — The 
 captain navigates the ship witht-ut me, 
 but he receives his orders from me; 
 and, until I go back, he cannot receive 
 such orders. 
 
 How has your absence been the 
 means of creating a loss on the cargo ? 
 —I left my ship, which had sailed from 
 Manfredonia, to go to Reggio, where 
 she was to discharsre her cargo; and 
 after having arrived here, I heard, that 
 my captam had sold the cargo for five 
 carlinis (a carlini is eqnal to about 10 
 sous) less per bushel than the regular 
 price. 
 
 (The Interpreter stated the alleged 
 loss to be about 25d. of this country 
 per bushel.) 
 
 Mr. WILLI AMS—Perhapsyou have 
 made a more profitable voyage here. 
 (Order,, order.) 
 
 If you had not come to England, 
 would that have made any difference 
 as to the sale of this cargo.' Would it 
 have interfered with or altered the 
 price ? — Yes : for one reason, if Ihad not 
 ^ct out for England then, but continued 
 my trade (my commercial affairs,) it 
 would have been better ; for I left my 
 country just at the time of harvest, and 
 I advanced money at Manfredonia to 
 buy corn. By this tin»e, if I had not 
 come here, 1 should have gained so 
 much as to compensate me for the loss 
 of 8,000 dollars which I lost in 1S18. 
 
 I only speak of the voyage of the 
 ship. Can you explain how your 
 coming here can make any difference 
 on the profit or loss of that voyage ? — • 
 Yes. I ordered the captain to sell the 
 cargo for not Ic^s than y4 carlinis per 
 bushel. The captain, when he an ived 
 at Reggio, hearing I had gone away, 
 has taken on himself to sell for 21 car- 
 linis ; and after I arrived here, I hare 
 heard that the price of corn was raised 
 to Q$ carlinis: now I am told it is 
 nearly 30 carlinis per bushel. 
 
 Do you mean to state that your beiag 
 here aft'ects the price of corn in Italy? 
 (A mn^mur through the house.) 
 
 Mr. W ILLIAMS was not aware that 
 this question was irregular, 
 
 The LORD -CHANCELLOR.-^ 
 There is no objection to the learned 
 counsel's question. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS observed, that it 
 was usual for sUe&ce to be obsei ved in 
 
8«'" 
 
 TniAL OF TK?E QUEEN". 
 
 those courts with which he Ma« faiui- 
 liar — in those courts vherethe judp;cs 
 j)i-esid(>d ; their lordships would there- 
 fore excuse him if he did not quite un- 
 derstand the interruption. 
 
 The Marquis of DO WNSHIRE was 
 of opinion that every indulgence and 
 facility should be extended to the 
 learned gentlemen who were engaged 
 in this investigation. (Hear, hear.) 
 It was on this occasion the duty of 
 the house to act with the utmost 
 impartiality. (Hear, hear.) Every 
 "part of the proceedings sliould be 
 marked with the greatest possible at- 
 tention; it was of essential importance 
 to the interests of justice that the evi- 
 dence on both sides should be given 
 vith the utmost clearness. (Hear, hear.) 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL certain- 
 ly thought, that, when any question 
 struck noble lords to be objectionable, 
 the objection should be openly made, 
 instead of manifesting any expression of 
 feeling. A contrary course made that 
 sort of impression on those who were 
 not a£customed to their lordships' pro- 
 ceedings which — created embarrass- 
 ment. H^was sure that no intention 
 existed, on the part of any noble lord, 
 to produce such an effect. But he con- 
 ceived that their lordships ought to 
 have a proper command over them- 
 selves, and that an entire silence should 
 be maintained, except where a just 
 reason for interruption could be shewn, 
 and in that case the reason should be 
 stated. (Hear, hear.) He made this 
 observation, without alluding to any 
 particular examination or cross-exa- 
 mination, but applied it to the whole of 
 these proceedings. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 Cross-examination continued. — Do 
 you mean to say, that the captain dis- 
 obeyed your orders, by which you lost 
 this sum? — That circumstance would 
 not have happened if I had been pre- 
 sent. It would have been an act of 
 disobedience if I had been present; 
 but, as I was not present, the captain 
 bad not foreseen what I would have 
 foreseen, but suffered himself to be 
 deceived by those who were present, 
 .And thus he made that loss. 
 
 Have you not said that you gave an 
 order to the captain ? — Yes. 
 
 AVhich order the captain has broken ? 
 — He disobeyed his orders immedi- 
 ately after he heard that I had set out 
 from Naples for England. 
 
 I beg to know whether you mean to 
 represent that, when you made the bar- 
 
 gain for 1 ,ooO dollars pcrmonf h, yon hw- 
 ticipated what has bappencd since ?-^ 
 I have always forci<een evils ; for I did 
 not wish to come here, not only on 
 account of my health, but also on ac- 
 count of my interest. 
 
 Can you tell us where the sale of the 
 cargo took placer— At Reggio. 
 
 How far is that from Naples? — Reg- 
 gio is on the coast of Calabria. It if 
 190 miles from Naples. 
 
 Wlien did you last see Gaetano Pa- 
 turzo, the person who was mate oa 
 board your vessel? 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL.— 
 Paturzo was not the mate. He acted 
 as pilot. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS.— It is of no con- 
 sequence. There is only one Paturao 
 who has given evidence. When did 
 the witness see him ? — The last lime I 
 saw Gaetano Paturzo was here in 
 London. 
 
 That is the place. I want the time? 
 — Two da^s ago. 
 
 Did you not see him yesterday? — • 
 I have not seen him before I saw him 
 here for 18 months. 
 
 I don't ask that question, I ask when 
 you saw Paturzo last? The day, or the 
 hour, or the minute ? — Last night we 
 supped together, and last night we 
 slept together — that is to say, in two 
 rooms adjoinins: each other. 
 
 You did not breakfast with him this 
 morning? — On the contrary, I have 
 taken my coffee with him this morning. 
 That is not the contrary. Had yon 
 no talk together on the evidence which 
 Paturzo gave yesterday.^ — No. 
 
 Not any? — ^No; because Paturzo 
 would not tell what he said ; nor am I 
 a person to state what I have to say. 
 
 Did you inquire of Paturzo what he, 
 Paturzo, said? — No. 
 
 What then do you mean by saying 
 that Patui zo would not tell you ? — Be- 
 cause I knew that he came here to 
 speak a plain truth, as I have also come 
 to this place to say a plain truth, on 
 which I will take my oath. 
 
 That may be very well ; but I want 
 you to answer my question. What do 
 you mean by sayiug that Paturzo would 
 uot tell you what he had mentioned 
 here if you had' not asked him to dis- 
 close it ? — I have said that he would 
 not tell it ; but I mean to say, that it 
 cannot (tliis was afterwards explained, 
 ought not) be told. 
 
 Did any body tell you not to speak 
 with Paturzo about what he sai4 licr^ 
 
CROSS EXAMINATION OP VINCEX20 GARGIULO. 
 
 87 
 
 yipslcrday ? — No ; I told Paturzo not, 
 ■nyseif, of my own accord, without be- 
 ing prompted by any person. 
 
 Do I understand you rightly? Did. 
 you tell Paturzo, *' Now, mind, don't 
 you and I say one word about the exa- 
 mination ofy'esterday ?*' — Yes, it is very 
 uatural. To tell to others all that we 
 Miy in this house is not decent ; i^ not 
 creditable. 
 
 You say you told this to Paturzo of 
 your own accord. Did you say to Pa- 
 turzo, this morning, or last night, that 
 it was not fit to talk about the business 
 •f yesterday? — Yes, I did. 
 
 Had you no curiosity to learn from 
 Paturzo who it was that examined him ? 
 What sort of a man Mr. Attorney-Ge- 
 neral or Mr. Solicitor-General was? 
 ^-It does not belong to me to ask ; for 
 all my impression was, that I was 
 ©bligetl t6 make ray appearance before 
 that gentleman. 
 
 Did you think so entirely abont that, 
 that you could think or talk of nothing 
 eUe? — Yes. 
 
 Have you been in this room before? 
 > — Yes ; but there was nobody here. 
 
 When were you in this room before? 
 —On Sunday last. 
 
 Who came with you? — -A gentleman 
 brought me here to show me a curio- 
 sity : to show me where the coronation 
 was to take place. 
 
 • Was iie an Englishman or a foreigner 
 who brought you? — An Englishman. 
 
 His name ?— T don't know it. 
 
 Nor his person ? — I know his person. 
 
 Have you seen him since you came 
 before their lordships this morning ? — 
 I have not. 
 
 Have yoii looked about you to see 
 him ? — I have not seen him. 
 
 Would yoii know his name if you 
 beard it ? — No ; because he is a person I 
 know by sight, but not by name ; if his 
 name were mentioned I would not 
 know it. 
 
 How long is it since you have seen 
 hira? — I have seen him many times, 
 but always transitorily, because I do 
 not understand kis language, nor he 
 mine. 
 
 Did you see him abroad ? — No. 
 
 Have you only seen him since yon 
 came to this country? — Only since 1 
 arrived in England. 
 
 Wheo did you arrive in England ?— • 
 O^the 14th inst. 
 
 When were yo# examined ? — I have 
 been examined at Milan, 
 
 Have vow not been examined since 
 
 you came to England? — ^Yes, but ver- 
 bally. 
 
 Who examined you? — A gentlemaa 
 whom I don't know. 
 
 Was it the same gentleman who 
 showed yon this place? — No. 
 
 I wish you would look in that comer 
 (pointing to the place which the coun- 
 sel and agents for the prosecution oc- 
 cupy below the bar,) and look abont 
 you, to see whether that person is pre* 
 sent. (The witness pointed to Mr* 
 Bouchier.) 
 
 Is that the person who showed yo« 
 this place? — No; that was a persoa 
 called a major domo. 
 
 The interpreter stated that the wit- 
 ness meant a snperintcndant. 
 
 What did you mean by pointing out 
 that gentleman ? — Because he examin- 
 ed me. 
 
 Do you see the gentleman who 
 brought you here ? — No. 
 
 Who catne with you from Naples to 
 this country? — I came with a King'* 
 messenger (Courier del Re) and my 
 servant. . 
 
 Who paid the expenses of the jour- 
 ney? — The King's messenger, or cou- 
 rier. 
 
 Before you left Naples for this conn- 
 try, did yon know a Colonel Brown? — - 
 Yes. 
 
 Were you examined just before your 
 departure by Cplonel Brown? — ^No; 
 Colonel Brown examined me in De- 
 cember, last year, as I bave said 
 before. 
 
 Was the lawyer Vimarcati present? 
 — He was. 
 
 And put the questions in tlie pre- 
 sence of Colonel Brown ? — Yes. 
 
 Whi«h questions and answers were 
 put down in writing ? — I believe so. 
 
 Did you swear to the truth of thos« 
 depositwns? — No, I subscribed my 
 name at the end of the paper. 
 
 Was that in the presence of Colonel 
 Brown, and the lawyer Vimarcati ?— 
 Yes. 
 
 Have you seen Vimarcati since you 
 were examined? — I have not seen liim 
 since, except when I passed througki 
 Milan. 
 
 Have you not seen Vimarcati siwce 
 you were examiucd in December?— 
 Yes. 
 
 Did you see any body else on the 
 subject of your testimouy, evcept 
 Colonel Brown and Vimarcati ? — No. 
 
 I mean on the subject of the Prin- 
 cess of Wales? — On thut subject I 
 
88 
 
 TRIAL O* THE QUEfilT, 
 
 have seen no one but Vimarcati and 
 Colonel Brown. 
 
 But as you passed tlirongh Milan, I 
 understood you to say that you saw 
 Vimarcati ? — Yes. 
 
 Had the Colonel, at that time, the 
 examination which the witness signed 
 in December ? — 1 did not see it. 
 
 Npr any paper at all ? — No. 
 
 Has he never seen it since Decem- 
 ber i — No. 
 
 Hare you never seen the examina- 
 tion taken in December from that time 
 to the present? — I have not seen it. 
 Even now I have not seen it- 
 Here the cross-examination termi- 
 nated. 
 
 Re-examined by tlie SOLICITOR- 
 GENERAL.— The witness has stated 
 a sum he has received, and is to re- 
 ceive, as a compensation for his time, 
 trouble, and loss in coming hf re. I 
 ask him, according to the "best judg- 
 ment he can form, vvhetlier it is more 
 or less than a just compensation for 
 such loss? — According to my succoss 
 in trade, this year, it is not sufficient 
 for what I have lost. 
 
 Some dii»cussion then took place 
 among their lordships relative to the 
 mode of examination, Lord Liverpool 
 luggesting that one noble lord should 
 finish his examination before another 
 J>ut anv questions to the witness. 
 
 By Earl GREY— What were you 
 paid by the Princess of Wales while 
 she had your ship ? — 750 dollars per 
 month and all expences. 
 
 You have stated that after the tent 
 •was shut the Princess and Bergami 
 remained the whole night together; 
 was there any other person in Uie tent 
 at night ? — No. 
 
 How do you know that Bergami re- 
 mained there during the whole night? 
 —Because, when the tent was cover- 
 ed, he remained under it. 
 
 i>id you evet see him in it during 
 iiiQ intermediate time ? — No. 
 
 Was there another communication 
 from any other part of the ship to the 
 tent without coming on deck ? — Yes, 
 there was a communication by a lad- 
 der, which le<l into the dining-room. 
 
 Was it possible for Bergami to get 
 to the dining room by that communi- 
 cation without your seeing him ? — It 
 might have so happened, though the 
 passage Mas small ; but I don't know 
 that he did. 
 
 LORD ELLENBOROUGH.— Was 
 Bc4gaua's bed ever made below, ou the 
 
 passage from Jaffa to Terracina?— 
 Never; ouce I remember Bergara is 
 being obliged to go below in cojue-' 
 quence of bad weather. 
 
 When the bad weather obliged Ber-- 
 gami to go below, did the Princess 
 also go below? — Both together went 
 below. 
 
 It is necessary to put another ques- 
 tion — not whether a bed was ever pre- 
 pared for Bergami below, but whether 
 it was prepared for him m the diuing« 
 room ? — No. 
 
 Earl of ROSEBERRY.— You stated 
 that in blowing weather the light was- 
 taken down the lad«ler; do you know 
 who took it? — Theodore or Carlino. 
 
 Lord AUCKLAND. — You said yen 
 received 750 dollars a montli from the 
 Princess; did tliat cover ali the ex- 
 pences of the voyage r — I have got 
 much to say on that point. The freigiit 
 of 759 dollars was a very low — the low- 
 est (pocchisainto) allowance. I agreed 
 for 750 dollars a month as a certain- 
 ty ; but when we take on board a royal 
 personage, we trust' more to uncertain 
 than to certain profits. In these 
 uncertain profits I was disappointed, 
 -and I made some applications, some 
 ilemands for compensation; and the 
 English government thus came to know 
 that I am what I am. ' 
 
 What was the expense per month of 
 navigating the ship, paying all charges 
 but harbour duties r — ^My crew consist- 
 ed of 22 persons. The wages of these, 
 allowing them, one with another, at 10 
 dollars a moutii, make 220 dollars a 
 month. Then provisions were very 
 dear, in consequence of the year be- 
 ing steril. Then the expence of wear- 
 ing and tearnig was great on this oc- 
 casion ; for, in consequence of having 
 a royal personage on board, I was 
 obliged to have the sails, the rigging, 
 and all the ship in tight order. The 
 ship cost me 2000 dollars, and the in- 
 surance on tJiat amount i;^ at least 1 per 
 cent. ; and taking all these cxpcnses^ 
 together, you will iind that there 
 could hardly remuin any thing out of 
 the 750 dollars a month. 
 
 Marquis of LANSDOWN.— You 
 have said you were disappointed of 
 the profits you expected from taking 
 the Princess of Wales in youp ship. 
 Did you make any application to the 
 Princess, or any other person acting 
 for her, on the subject of that disap- 
 pointment? — To her Royal Highness 
 I did not. Wheii she di:jrais>cd me 
 
raoss-r.xAMi»ATioj«['oF vin'crnzq gauciui-o. 
 
 ^<t 
 
 from her service, I recehed a certifi* 
 caie of character from her. 1 was dis- 
 missed in consequence of Bergami, 
 who wished mc to carry them to Ve- 
 uice, which I could not do. On our 
 departure from Uhodes, the Princess, 
 ■who always commanded what Bergami 
 commanded, ordered us to go to Ve- 
 nice; but on leaving Candia the wind 
 was from the north, and, remaining in 
 that state , our water was going to be 
 at an end ; for I had also 9 liorses on 
 board. They did wish to go to Morea, 
 or to return to Candia, and therefore 
 we were obliged to go to Sicily. Hav- 
 ing lost sight of Sicily, we went to 
 Naples ; and Bergami, on landing, 
 because he had promised 6000 dollars 
 as a present, told me that there was no 
 present for me, because 1 had not 
 taken them to Venice. Then when I 
 came here, I presented a memorial 
 through my own Ambassador, Count 
 de Ludolph, to the British govern- 
 ment ; and I stated, that as I believed 
 I served the British government, be- 
 cause 1 had the honour of wearing the 
 English Hag while the Princess was 
 in my ship, I expected a present, but 
 had not received any. In consequence 
 of this application the English govern- 
 ment knew that I was i he gentleman 
 who took tlie Princess and her suite 
 on this voyage. 
 
 While the Princess Was on board 
 your ship, did you ever, on any pre- 
 tence, order or desire the men, or any 
 jiar-t of them, to withdraw from that 
 part of the deck where she and Bergami 
 were ? — 1 don't remember that ever I 
 did. [This answer seemed to excite 
 some surprise.] 
 
 If you had been in the habit of or- 
 dering the mate to leave that part of 
 the deck, is it not likely that you 
 would remember it? — O, now I un- 
 derstand it. Once I remember to 
 liave seen the Princess sitting with 
 Bergami on the bed, and to have or- 
 dt-red the male to go away, as it was 
 not decent for him to be present, he 
 b<iing a young man. I sent him away 
 not to see that which was indecent 
 
 When you ordered Gaetano to re- 
 move, were any other persons near 
 that part ol the deck where the Prin- 
 cess and Bergami were ? — There were 
 all the persons walking that way, but 
 I divided them all, and sent one one 
 way, and another another. 
 
 Am I to undemtand that you desired 
 th»m all to withdraw f-^Ve*'. 
 12 
 
 Then who remained ?-— 'None but thtf 
 Princess and Bersrami. 
 
 Do you remeiiiber any one person 
 in particular whom you ordered to' 
 withdraw ? — There was always tlier« 
 Schiavini to receive the commands of 
 her Royal Highuess. 
 
 Then Schiavini did not withdraw?-^ 
 No, he did not. 
 
 By another PEER.— When the tent 
 was shut, did Victorine remain within.^ 
 —(We could not collect the answer.) 
 
 Had you any means of knowing 
 whether Bergami went away, or whe-^ 
 ther the hatchway was shut or not, af- 
 ter the tent was closed ? — I cannot say 
 whether the hatchway was shut or not; 
 what I can say is, that in the morning 
 wh« n the tent was open, I saw the 
 hatchway closed. 
 
 By the Earl of OXT ORD.-^I wish 
 to ask whether, in consequence of the 
 memorial presented through your am- 
 bassador, you received any present^— «- 
 I have received nothing ; nay, my mi^ 
 nister and the colonel to whom I men- 
 tioned it, told me they had got nothing 
 for me, and that I should go to London 
 myself, and then I could see about it. 
 
 What colonel is it to whomyonal- 
 luder— Colonel Brown. 
 
 [Symptoms of impatience were now 
 expressed by several noble lords, witli 
 cries of" withdraw, withdraw."] 
 
 By the Earl of DONOUGHMORE. 
 — You have said that, when the Prin- 
 cess and Bergami were together on 
 the deck, you desired the mate to re- 
 tire: do you recollect on one occasion 
 having so desired the n)ate to retire, 
 when the Princess and Bergami w^e 
 seated on a gun ? 
 
 Mr. BROUGH 
 this was a leading question. 
 
 When you sent the mate and others 
 away, did you observe the Princcfcf 
 and Bergami seated on a gun ? 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM sng-ested tliat 
 the tAvo questions should be put sepa- 
 rately, and that the sending away of 
 the mate should not be mixed up with 
 the sitting on the gun. 
 
 Did you ever see the Princess and 
 Bergami sitting together on a gun on 
 the deck ? — Yes , I have said so. 
 
 In what situation as to each other f 
 — Bergami on the gun, and the Prin- 
 cess on his knee. 
 
 Did you on that occasion send away 
 the mate?— Also, on this occasion, the 
 mate and the rest. Whenever thej^ 
 stood to look at such things, I always 
 
90 
 
 THIAI* OF THU QVEE}t, 
 
 Rent Ihcm away, some one way, some 
 another. 
 
 The witness was then ordered to 
 vrithdraw, and was retiring from the 
 bar, when 
 
 The Earl of LAUDERDALE ob- 
 served, that the witness had mentioned 
 his havinjj received a certificate of 
 good conduct from her Royal High- 
 «.e8s; and he wished to ask the house 
 ifthe witness might be desired to pro- 
 duce it. 
 
 The witness was recalled, and exa- 
 mined by the LORD-CHANCELp 
 liOR. — From whom did you receive 
 that paper (the certificate)? — From 
 the Princess of Wales at Villa d'Este, 
 when I went to her from Genoa. 
 
 Did she give it to you herself, or 
 through any other person ? — The Prin- 
 cess w rote it herself in my presence, 
 and she herself gave it to me. 
 
 The interpreter being desired to read 
 the certificate, asked if it was their 
 lordships' pleasure that he should read 
 it in English? (Cries of " No, no,"). 
 It was then read in the original Italian : 
 its date \va«thc 16th of October, 1816. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR.— Let 
 an accurate copy of it be taken. 
 
 By the Earl of LAUDERDALE.— 
 You state that you were ordered to 
 let down the curtains of the tent. I 
 wish to know whether at that time the 
 Princess and Bergami were sitting on 
 the gnu ? 
 
 [It was observed, that there were 
 here tw.o distinct questions, and the 
 interpreter was desired to put them. se- 
 parately to the witness.] 
 , The Interpreter. — How am I to di- 
 vide the question, for it is all so put 
 together, that I should be glad your 
 lordships would divide it for me.' (A 
 Uugh.) 
 
 ^ The questions were then put sepa- 
 rately, and the witness answered in 
 the aitirmative, and added, that this 
 circumstance had happened more than 
 once. (Order, order.) 
 
 Air. BROUGHAM was about to 
 make some remark, but was stopped 
 by cries of "order." 
 
 Did you continue to walk the deck 
 after the curtains were let down ? — I 
 did ;, sometimes towards the bowsprit, 
 sometimes to\yards the gun-room, and 
 sometimes towards the cabin. 
 . At the request of Mr. WILLIAMS 
 the following question was put by the 
 LORD-CHANCELLOR :-^ Were you 
 iu the habit of going down into the 
 
 dining-room every nlgl<t.? — No; that 
 was what I was not in the habit of 
 doing. 
 
 The witness then withdrew. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said he had an 
 humble application to make to their 
 loidships, in consequence of a commu- 
 nication which he had that moment re- 
 ceived. He was anxious to ask one 
 question of Theodore Majochi without 
 further delay, and,theretore, lie hoped 
 their lordships would order him to be 
 called in. He had only one question 
 to put to him, which might by possi- 
 bility lead to one or two more. (Cries 
 of " state the question.") If theirlord- 
 ships would allow him to examine this 
 witness, he should have no objection 
 to mention the questions he proposed: 
 to put : and tlie firstquestion he wished 
 to put was, whether the witness had' 
 been at Bristol during the last season, 
 in the course of the last twelve or four- 
 teen months? 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL wished^ 
 in such a case, that the house should 
 be chiefly governed by the opinion of 
 the learned lord on the woolsack, and 
 that of the learned gentlemen at the- 
 bar ; but he would suggest, whether^ 
 if this course was acceded to, whicli^ 
 was breaking in upon established rnles,.- 
 counsel ought not, in the fivst instance, 
 to state not only the particular ques-, 
 tion, but the object of the examination. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR re-' 
 peated what lie had said on a former: 
 occasion, that on an application by 
 counsel for the farther cross-examina- 
 tion of a witness, their lordships would; 
 be governed by a scuise of justice, and> 
 by a regard to the grounds on whioh^ 
 the application was made. But it' a 
 witness was to be cross-examined again,.- 
 he could not say whether their lord- 
 ships would allow the cross-examina-t' 
 tion to be taken piecemeal or not. » ^ 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM admitted that- 
 his application was out of the ordinary, 
 course of regular proceeding ; but h^ 
 pledged him5.elf that he would never 
 ask that witness another question after ' 
 to-day until he came to open the case^- 
 At present he should satisfy himself 
 with asking these two or thiee ques- 
 tions. - , 
 
 The Earl of POMFRET, from the 
 gallery, suggested the propriety of 
 taking the opinion of the judges. (Cries 
 of *' No, no.') 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR 
 thought their lordships should allow 
 
SECOND EXAMINATION OP THEODOIlE MAJOCIII. 
 
 91 
 
 the questions to be pnt to' the witness 
 at present. 
 
 "ITieodore Majochi was tlien ordered 
 to be called in, and a short pause en- 
 sued. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR ob- 
 served, that it would be necessary that 
 the learned counsel should state his 
 cjiiestions to him In the first instance, 
 imd that they should be put by him to 
 the witness.' They miijht indeed, as 
 , far as respected the regular course of 
 their proceedings, be stated to any 
 Peer, and on these conditions the wit- 
 ness might be ajrain examined. 
 
 THEODORE MAJOCHI was then 
 brought to ttte bar, and applied through 
 the interpreter to be permitted as a 
 favour to assure their lordships that 
 he was ready to lay down his life in 
 that place, if his former testimony was 
 not correct. 
 
 RENEWED CROSS-EXAMINA- 
 
 TION BY Mil. BROUGHAM. 
 
 Does the witness recollect whether 
 ht* was at Bristol in the course of the 
 last year, or during the present? — No, 
 I was not. 
 
 Has he ever been at Glocester dur- 
 ing that period? — Yes; I know Glo- 
 cester very well. 
 
 Did you' live there in the service of 
 a gentleman named Hyatt? — Yes, I 
 did. 
 
 Did you ever declare to any person 
 there that the Princess of Wales was a 
 most excellent woman? — -Yes, I have 
 (Said that she was a good woman. 
 
 Did you ever say to any person that 
 her conduct was highly becoming? — • 
 I always said that she was a good wo- 
 man ( buona donna), but that she was 
 surrounded by bad i>cople (canaglia). 
 , Did you ever state that she was a 
 prudent woman, and that you never 
 observed any thing improper in her 
 conduct? — I cannot recollect at all, 
 yes or no, whether I ever said so or 
 pot. 
 
 Did you ever state that she always 
 behaved with the utmost propriety ? — 
 Tliis I have never said. 
 
 Do yon remember a gentleman 
 named William Hughes at Bristol or 
 at Glocester ? — I do not recollect him 
 at Bristol. 
 
 Do you recollect him at Glocester, 
 cr elsewhere ? — I may have known 
 kim^ but I do not recollect the name. 
 
 Do 3fou r€coIle€t him when you are 
 
 told that he was a clerk in the house 
 of Messrs. Turners, bankers, at Glo- 
 cester ?-No, I do not know any bankers 
 of that name. 
 
 Did you ever know or communicate 
 with the clerk of any banker at Glo- 
 cester ? — Questn non mi ricci do. 
 
 Did you ever complain to any one 
 that Bergami kept back a part of the 
 servants' wages from them ? — Yes, t 
 did ; I recollect that. 
 
 To whom did yon so complain of 
 Bergami ? — i cannot recollect precisely, 
 biit it was in answer to somebody who 
 asked me why I left the Princess's 
 service, and I remember telling Mr. 
 Hyatt that Bergahii wished to redujce 
 my wages after a long voyage. 
 
 Did you ever say tlie same thing to 
 any person besides Mr. Hyatt ?--Quest6 
 non mi ricordo. 
 
 Do you remember Mrs. Adams, the 
 mother-in-law of Mr. Hyatt ?— Yes, I 
 do. 
 
 Do you remember Mrs. Hughes, the 
 housekeeper of Mrs. Adams? — I re- 
 collect the housekeeper, but do not 
 know her name. 
 
 Had she a son in a banker's house? 
 — I do not know whether he was in the 
 house of any banker, or what was his 
 situation, but I recollect his making a 
 visit to the honsekeeper. 
 
 Did you ever tell him any circnm- 
 stances respecting Bergami, or re- 
 specting yoy^r own wages? — I cannot 
 recollect precisely yes or no. 
 
 Did you tell him that the Princesis 
 of Wales was an excellent and prudejit 
 woman, and that you had never saeii 
 any thing improper or indecorous in 
 her conduct r — Questo noH mi ricordo. 
 
 You are not sure that you may not 
 have said so ? 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERALwas, 
 we believe, about to object to this 
 course of examination, but was inter- 
 rupted by general calls of " Go on." 
 
 Did you ever state that the Princess 
 of Wales had, as far as you had seen, 
 always conducted herself most pro- 
 perly? — Questo non mi ricordo. 
 
 Did you ever travel in a stage-coach 
 from Glocester to Bnstol, or from Glo- 
 cester to any other place? — I have 
 never travelled in a stage-coach from 
 Glocester <.'xcept to London. 
 
 Did you never perform any otlier 
 journey in a stage-coach since your 
 arrival' in England ?— No, I recollect 
 no other. 
 
 Did you ever state to any person iu 
 
92 
 
 TIllAL OF JklE aiiEEN. 
 
 a stajrf -coach, any thing yith regard 
 to the deportment of the Princess of 
 WaliS whilst you were in her service? 
 • — Qficsto non mi ricordo. 
 
 Did you say that she had always "be- 
 haved with great prudence? — Que^^o 
 non mi ricordo. 
 
 Did you represent her to be a much- 
 injured Avoman? — No ; no more than I 
 did yesterday. 
 
 Did yon i^iait' to any one in a coaCh, 
 or elsewhere, that you had been ap- 
 plied to to swear against her? — I do 
 not recollect that I ever spoke upon 
 the subject. 
 
 Did you represent in a stage-coach, 
 or elsewhere, that application had been 
 made to you to swear against the Prin- 
 cess of Wales ? — I do not understand 
 the question. 
 
 Did you ever say yon had been 
 asked whether yon would swear against 
 her Royal Highness ? — I do not know 
 what is meant by swearing (jurare). 
 
 Did you state to any person An Eng- 
 land that you had been applied to, to 
 make a deposition, or give testiipony 
 oti oath, against the Princess?-— 
 
 The Interpreter for her. Majesty 
 1(Benedett6 Cohen) said he found it 
 difBcuU, if not impossible, to explain 
 to the witness's understanding what 
 vrgs meant iiy being " applied to." 
 
 Did you ever say to any person in 
 Knglan'd that you had been asked to 
 girc an account on oath respecting 
 the conduct of the Princess of Wales? 
 ^— (With great emphasis) No, in En- 
 gland I was never asked. 
 
 The question is not whether the 
 Witness was ever asked in England to 
 give an account, but whether he ever 
 said in England 'that he had been 
 asked? — (No answer.) 
 
 The SOLICITOR GENERAL said 
 he hbptid their Lordships wonld per- 
 mit him to offer a single remark on the 
 course of examination now pursued by 
 his learned friend. He understood 
 their lordships to have laid down, as a 
 rule, that the examination of witnesses 
 should be conducted according to the 
 mode adopted in courts below. He 
 conceived the object of the questions 
 DOW put to the witness was to elicit de- 
 nials as to statements made by him, 
 ■which denials would afterwards be con- 
 tradicted by another witness. It was 
 tJje practice on all occasions of this 
 kind, in the courts below, to mention 
 at onc«i the name of that witness with 
 
 whom the supposed conversation had 
 been held. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHA?/! submitted tbaf . 
 such a rule conld not be unitbrmly 
 acted upon. It i^.ust be necesMry 
 sometimes to conceal the name of the 
 person who was to prove the falsehood 
 of a witness, as the witness would be 
 put on his guard if. he h^d reason lb 
 believe that that person was forthcom- 
 ing. 
 
 The SOLICITOR GENERAL ob, 
 served that his learned friend was to- 
 tally unacquainted with the rules of the 
 courts below. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM retorted the im- 
 putation. The Solicitor-General ap- 
 peared to him unacquainted with those 
 rules, as well as with the first rule of 
 all judicial proceedings, whicli was, 
 not to interrupt an adversary before 
 he had concluded his observation^. 
 He apprehended that his learned 
 friends who were with him on this oc- 
 casion had as nmch expeiience and 
 knowledge of those rules as the So- 
 licitor General, and he should there- 
 fore consider the rule which the Sor 
 licitor General attempted to establish ^ 
 as a mere dictum of his own. It 
 might be very well to observe such a 
 rule on particular occasions, but in a 
 case of this kind it would prevent the 
 most perjured witness from being de- 
 tected. He confidently appealed to 
 their lordships, notwithstanding the 
 monopoly of legal learning claimed by 
 the Solicitor General, whether he w^as 
 not entitled to draw frem the witness 
 declarations that he had never made 
 this, or that statement to any perjwn, 
 and then to produce, for the first time, 
 A or B, to whom such declarations 
 had been made. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE said a few words, 
 but in so low a tone as to be inaudible 
 below the bar. 
 
 l^e LORD CHANCELLOR >va* ^ 
 inclined to think that the ordinary , 
 rule was, to mention, in the fii^t in- 
 stajice, the name of the person to whom 
 the witness was -supposed to have 
 made certain communications. He 
 would not, however, pledge himself to 
 the affirmation. It was certainly ob- 
 vious that a very honest man might; 
 forget generally that he had or had not 
 stated a particular fact, and yet recol- 
 lect it when he heard the name of the 
 individual to whom he had mad^ .the 
 stateweot. This he did not considet 
 
SECOND EXAMINATION OP TlICODOnE MAJOCIII. 
 
 ^S 
 
 could throw any slur on the testimony 
 pt'sncha witness. Jle had had no ex- 
 perience in pr(iccedings at Nisi Prius 
 for the last 25 years, and did not 
 know what rule was now fljenerally 
 ad;ipted ; but in his time such a rule 
 would h::ve been thought fair and 
 reasonable. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said he merely 
 protested against the universality of 
 its application. He wonld, however, 
 «tonce nieiilion the uaine ot'tlie indi- 
 vidual. 
 
 Did you ever say to Mr. Jolinson 
 tbatyou had been applied to to become 
 a witness against the Princess of 
 Wales? — -I swear I do not i^now either 
 the name or the thins mentioned. 
 
 Did you ever tell any person that 
 you hail been so af>plied to ? 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR sug- 
 gested tliat the question would perhaps 
 be rendered more intelligible to the 
 witness, if it were put in this fwrn; — 
 *' Did you ever say, 'I have been ap- 
 plied to to appear as a witness againi^t 
 the Princess of Wales/ or words to 
 that effect? '' 
 
 The question was accordingly so put. 
 
 (In a loud and passionate tone.) 
 Never. 
 
 Did you ever say to Mr. Johnson, in 
 the stage-coach, '* I have had great 
 advantages offered to me if I will be a 
 witness against the Princess," or words 
 to that effect? — (With violent -r^'sticu- 
 lations.) I will lay down my lite there 
 (pointing to the space within the bar,) 
 ^such an offer was ever made to me, 
 
 Mr. BR0UGHA:M.— That is not an 
 answer; let the question be explained 
 t» him. 
 
 The Interpreter here expressed a 
 hope that their l(jrdship.s would permit 
 him to use any words, and to exercise 
 his own discretion as to the form and 
 manner oC stating and endeavouring to 
 make intelligir^le the questions to this 
 witness. 
 
 The preceding question was again 
 put. 
 
 I will lay down my life if I ever 
 «iade any discourse about appearing as 
 ^ witness, or about any oath. 
 
 Did you any where in England hold 
 fuch a discourse, with any body ? 
 
 [A considerable time now elapsed, 
 and various explanations were had 
 betAVeen the Interpreter and witness 
 before the latter could understand the 
 full a^id precise meaning of this ques- 
 tion.] 
 
 He at length answered m the ne^a-^ 
 five. 
 
 Did you ever state ta Mr. Johnson^ 
 in a stage-coach, that you had bet>u 
 offered a sum of money, or a situatioo, 
 under government, if you would gi^^ 
 evidence agauist the Princess of 
 Wales? — How could I say so to him, 
 when I did not know his name ? 
 
 Did you ever say to a Mr. Johnson, 
 in a stage-coach, that you had been 
 offered a sum of money, or a place un- 
 der government, for the evidence yoH 
 were ta give against the Princess? — ^ 
 To you I will answer no more : you. 
 ask me things that. never entered ray 
 head — things I never dreamt abaut. 
 
 By the LOJID-CHANCELLOR.^ 
 Had you ever any conversation in Eng- 
 land with any person in a stage-coacU 
 about giving evidence ? 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM submitted Uiat 
 that question ought not to be put at 
 present: — -he asked. — • 
 
 Had you ever any conversation with 
 any body in a stage-coach respecting 
 her Royal Highness the Princess of 
 VV^ales ? — I neter have spoken about 
 the Princess of Wales in any diligence. 
 
 Did you ever speak about the affairt 
 of the Princess in the course of aqy 
 journey you had in England when tra* 
 veiling in a diligence? — Never about 
 the affairs of the Princess of Wales. X 
 never meddled with those discourses. 
 
 Did you ever at an inn or in a dili-» 
 gence on a journey in England say that 
 you expected money or a place undet* 
 govcrnment for giving evidence against 
 her Royal Highness? — Never ! Never'! 
 (with vehement action.) 
 
 How long were you in England 
 when you were here before the pre- 
 sent time? — The first time qua night. 
 
 How long were you in England at 
 that period when you lived with Mr. 
 Hyatt of Glocester? — Non mi ricordo, 
 because I have not the bobk in which 
 I entered it. 
 
 About how many months were yon 
 in Mr. Hyatt's service?— I caanot tell, 
 because I have not the liook in whicU 
 I put it down. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM thanked their 
 lordships for the favonr they ha4 
 granted him. 
 
 THE SOLICITOR -GENERAL 
 wished to put a few questions to thCs 
 witness. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR de- 
 cided that t!ie interrogatories just 
 closed being in the nature of a cro^a- 
 
9i 
 
 TRIAL OF TJIE QUEEN. 
 
 evQTiunalion the counsel on the oppo- 
 Rjte si«lc had a li'^ht to ask some ques- 
 tions on what had jtist passed. 
 
 Did you come from Vienna to this 
 country as servant to Mr. Hyatt? — 
 Mr. Hyatt broujjht me here. 
 
 Did you continue in his service till 
 you set off for the purpose of return- 
 ing to Vienna? — ^Yes, till that moment : 
 ' he paid the fare of the coach for me on 
 my return. 
 
 By Lord ELLENBOROUGH.— 
 When you spoke of her Royal High- 
 ness as u buona donna, a priuknt wo- 
 man, did you refer to her moral con- 
 duct as a woman, or to her behaviour 
 to you as a mistress ? — V/hen there was 
 discourse respecting: the Princess of 
 Wales, I always said tha.l she was a 
 buona donna ; because, if I had said 
 that she was a cattiva donna, a bad 
 ■vvonian, they would have fought me — 
 knocked me down. (Laughter.) 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM here remarked 
 that hi.s^ object in recalling Theodore 
 Majochi Was not to cast any imputation 
 upon any quarter for any offers made 
 to him, but with a perfectly different 
 view. It still remained doubtful whe- 
 tiier, by buona donna, the witness 
 meant a kind, or a prudent, good, and 
 virtuous lady. 
 
 Majochi having withdrawn from the 
 fear. 
 
 Lord GRENVILLE said he did not 
 think the witness had used any word 
 equivalent to the expression of the In- 
 terpreter, "fought me— knocked me 
 down." 
 
 The Interpreter replied, , that the 
 -witness had used the word atlaccare, 
 ■which meant to knock down, though 
 attaccar lite meant to quarrel, or to 
 pick a quarrel. He had rendered the 
 sense with tiie assistance of Mr. B. Co- 
 hen the Interpreter oh the other side, 
 ■whose aid he had requested, for greater 
 accuracy, when Majochi was recalled. 
 Mr. BROUGHAM added, that the 
 TTituess had employed tjic phrase attac- 
 errr lite, which might have nothing to 
 do with fighting or knocking down. 
 
 Mr. Cohen explained attaccar lite to 
 mean to dispute, and admitted that the 
 iiritness Ivad used it. 
 
 Lord ELLENBOROUGH repeated 
 the terms in which he had put his 
 question, and gave it as his opinion 
 that the Interpreter had given too much 
 force to the meaning of the witness. 
 
 Aner a single remark from Lord 
 GRENVILLEthe answer was amended 
 oD the notes of tiie sfaort-haiid writer. 
 
 The EaH of LTA^ERPOOL movea 
 the adjournment of the house as it was 
 half past 4. (Go on, go on.) He had 
 no objectirui to proceeding, but he 
 doubted whether any thing could be 
 gained by calling another witness to- 
 day. (Go on, go on.). 
 
 FOURTH WITNESS. 
 
 [Fkaxcisco di Rollo.] 
 
 Francisco di Rollo was accordingly 
 put to the bar and sworn : he was exa- 
 mined by Mr. J. PARKE. 
 
 What countryman are you?— A na- 
 tive of Piedmont. 
 
 In whose service arc you now ? — 
 The Marquis of Ciesa. 
 
 Were you at any time In the service 
 of the Princess of Wales ? — Yes. 
 
 In what capacity ? — As cock. 
 
 In what year did you enter her ser- 
 vice ? — It was when she came from 
 Venice; but the year I do not remem- 
 ber. 
 
 How long did yon continue in it.? — 
 Nearly two years, not quite. 
 
 )?y whom were you hired to go into 
 the service of -the Princess? — By Sig- 
 ner Bergami. 
 
 Were you acquainted with Bergami 
 before that time ? — Yes. 
 
 What was vSignor Bergami when yon 
 first knew him? — He was in the same 
 service with me. 
 
 Was that the Service of General Pir 
 no ? — Yes. 
 
 In what capacity was Bergami acting 
 in the service of General Pino? — 'As 
 valet : he used to come down into the 
 kitchen to fetch the dishes to be put 
 upon table: Afterwards be took the 
 situation of couiier. 
 
 How long were you in the same ser- 
 vice with Bergami? — I was in the ser- 
 vice of Count Pino, and he was in the 
 service of the countess. (Laughter.) 
 
 How long had Bergami been in the 
 service of the Countess Pino ? — I can- 
 not tell, because I went out of the ser- 
 vice of General Pino. 
 
 How long was he in the service of 
 the Countess Pino ? — ^I do not know, 
 because, when I went into the service 
 of General Pino, Bergami had been in 
 the service of the countess. 
 
 How long were you in the service of 
 General Pino ? — •! served him three 
 years ; one wjjen he was minister 9t 
 war, anotlier at Moscow, and the third 
 I do not call a service. 
 
 WaiS Bergami in the service of ^^i^ 
 CouQtess Pino all three tittie& wheo 
 
EtiDENCE OF FRANCISCO DF ItOLLO. 
 
 95 
 
 yon served General Pino?— Yes; the 
 only (litfercnce >vas, that I was paid 
 by Geiwinl Pino, and ho was paid by 
 the countess; hirt wc were in the same 
 service, and tfined together. 
 
 How many ywirs liad you known 
 Berg-ami before you went into the ser- 
 vice of the Princess r — I do not know ; 
 I had served anollier master. 
 
 At what place were you taken into 
 the service of her Koyal Highness ? — 
 "When she went to live opposite the 
 J*laza Borromeo, wlicn she came from 
 Venice the first time. 
 
 M'ere you with her at the Villa Vil- 
 tani? — Yes. 
 
 At the Villa d'Estc?— Yes. 
 
 Did you accompany her crti her voy- 
 ajje to Greece ? — Yes. 
 
 Did yon act as cook on that voyage? 
 —I did, but not on board the Clorinde 
 and the Leviathan. 
 
 J)id you return with the Princess 
 from Greece, into Ilaly? — I did; but, 
 before I returned, I performed the 
 office of cook on board the po!;icre. 
 
 Were you at the Rarona ? — Yes. 
 
 At what place did you leave the ser- 
 vice of the Princess? — At the Barona. 
 . For what reason did you leave the 
 service of the Princess? — Because it 
 was the brother of Bergami who per- 
 secuted me, and then I could not stand 
 tJie labour. 
 
 What do you mean by '* could not 
 stand the labour ? "—Because there 
 was too much work. 
 
 Do you recollect where the Princess 
 slept on her voya£;e oiit to Greece? — 
 I do: in the polacre. 
 
 Before the Princess went to Pales- 
 tine, do you know in what part of the 
 polacre she slept? — Sometimes under 
 tlie deck, and sometimes in a tent 
 
 Where was the tent? — Going to- 
 wards the poop. 
 
 Where was the usual place where 
 her Royal Highness slept on the voy- 
 age from J all a to Italy? — She always 
 slept in the tent, excepting when she 
 landed: she went to the tent on ac- 
 count of the horses. 
 
 Do you know where Bergami slept 
 on the vovage from Jaffa to Italy? — 
 Whe.i we were on board the polacre I 
 saw him in the evening in the tent, 
 and then the tent was closed: Iferc 
 was the Priucess, and he was sitting 
 there, (Describing th^' situation.) 
 
 Have you ever seen Bergami in the 
 i;iiprDing conic out of the tent? — Some- 
 times, but not in the morning early : 
 lie came oui at a,ccrtaiu,hour. 
 
 At what time in the raoming di4 
 Bergami come out of the tent? at 
 what hour did you see him? — Some- 
 times I saw him in the morning early, 
 and sometimes a little later. I was al- 
 ways at the kitchen boiling potatoes 
 for the family for breakfast. 
 
 In what part of the vessel was the 
 kitchen? — At the mast near the bow- 
 sprit. 
 
 Was the tent down at night ? — Yes. 
 
 In what way was the tent fastened 
 down at hight? — The tent was closed 
 and covered : sometimes I did not 
 take notice, because t was attending 
 to my kitchen : but in going about I 
 saw that it was down- 
 Did you ever see a light in the tent 
 at night when it w^as closed ? — Twice 
 I have seen the light put out of tlie 
 tent. 
 
 Do you know who put the light out 
 of the tent? — How can I know? 
 
 AVho took the light when it was put 
 out ? — Either Theodora or Carlino. 
 
 When yon saw Bergami come out 
 of the tent in the morning, how was 
 he dressed?— He had on a gown, 
 which he had made in a part ot* 
 Greece, which was of siik. 
 
 Five o'clock being arrived, the Earl 
 of LIVERPOOL moved the adjourn- 
 ment, and their lordships separated* 
 
 FRIDAY, August 25. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR took 
 his seat, and prayers were read about 
 a quarter l>efore 10 o'clock. 
 
 Lord ELLENBOROUGH wished 
 fo draw their Lordships' attention to 
 observations which had appeared in a 
 paper of yesterday, in which an imisu- 
 tation was cast on the character of a 
 noble lord now absent; his wish being 
 to state what perhaps that noble lord 
 himself woud already have stated had 
 he had the opportunity of being pre- 
 sent; and which woukP shew that the 
 imputation was unfounded, and at the 
 same time that there was no incon- 
 sistency in the evidence given by tlic 
 witness Majochi. 
 
 Their Lordships would rccolleet 
 that Majochi stated that he went fir«it . 
 from Milan to Vienna in 1817, in the 
 service of the Marcjui* Onisclialti ; 
 that he i^mafned some time at Vienna, 
 and went back to Milan ; and that he 
 was in the service of the Marquis 
 Onisclialti six or seven months before 
 he entered into the service of the Bri- 
 tish embassy. If the dates were com- 
 pared, it would be found tha-t ihia 
 
§3 
 
 trirA'L OP TOB Quirtjr. 
 
 brduffht bitn dotnt to the month of 
 March, 1818. Now he (Lord ElUn- 
 l»0 rough) knew that Loid Stewart 
 liimied in England in July, 1817, and 
 l»e knew iliat he had business of his 
 owu which detained him in England 
 and Ireland to February, 1818. Up 
 to that period he had seen him fie- 
 *|Mently ; bnt it was besides matter of 
 public notoiiety, from the proceedings 
 in Clianccry, that Lord iftewart h^d 
 continued some time longer in this 
 eounti-> , at least till after the month 
 of March. But he did not leave En- 
 gland until some months {yubsequ«nt 
 to that date, and he himself mc?t Lord 
 .Stewart on the Dover road, in August, 
 iai8. It was, therefore, impossible 
 tliat Lord Stewart could have beeu at 
 Vienna during the period of the ser- 
 vice of Majoclii with the Slarquis of 
 Onisehalti, or that he could have any 
 ronnnunicatiou with him after he left 
 Milan. 'Jht re was, therefore, no Gon- 
 tradiclion-in what had been stated by 
 the witness on this subject. It would 
 be found, that when Majochi was asked 
 whether he saw Lord Stewart he said 
 he did not recollect, but that he saw 
 his Secretary. Now he bejrged it to 
 l>e understood tliat in making this e\- 
 )»lanatiou he was far from thvowiu:^ 
 .^ny jeflection on the conduct of Major 
 Durin. Nor could he conceive how it 
 could be stated as anything deroga- 
 tiiry from the character of a public 
 officer that he had endeavoured to se- 
 cure to his government th« evamiua- 
 tioB of a witness whose evidence wus 
 required in a case importaut to the 
 dignity of the crown and the personal 
 honour of the sovereign. 
 
 He had stated this much in order 
 that it miy,ht be known that there was 
 no contradiction in the evidence, and 
 that what had been stated rcspectini; 
 the conduct of L<»rd Stewart might 
 also be known to be as false as it was 
 bast. 
 
 CVke Clerk then proceeded to call 
 «ver the laouse, when an apology was 
 made for the absence of Lord Sondes 
 ga account of indisposition.) 
 
 The Earl of LIVEHPOOL, as simi- 
 lar apoloiiies might occur on other days, 
 thought It Beces>ary to observe, that 
 he hoped no nobie lord would, in con- 
 sequence of tlK'. temporary indisposi- 
 tion of a day or two, make that indis- 
 position an excuse for absenting him- 
 self dnring tlie whole of this proceeding. 
 
 Lord GKEN VI LLE wished to know 
 
 whether it was intended that all nobtr 
 lords who wrre present should \otti 
 He did not mean to give any opinion 
 on this subject at present, except to 
 say that he thought it nii^ht be very 
 difficult for noble lords to give a vote 
 on evidence which thry had not heard. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that 
 the question wlu tlier noble lords hhonld 
 be compelled to vote was very different 
 from that to which he had alluded. 
 He vras of opinion that that must de- 
 pend very nnicb upon circumstances, 
 upon which no determined opiiriori 
 could yet be civen ; but he believed 
 that the votiiig rau^t be, in a great 
 mea.«ure, left to their own discretion. 
 
 Lord GKENVILLE explained. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE madesome allusion 
 to the printed evidence, which we did 
 not distinctly hear. 
 
 The calling of the roll then proc(ed- 
 ed, and when it w as concluded, counsel 
 were called to the bar. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM, in consequence 
 of what had appeared in a paper of 
 yesterday, respecting his examination 
 of Majochi, thought it necessary to 
 make an explanation. It had been 
 stated, that he had examined that wit- 
 nets from a letter from a person he had 
 n(i\ er seen. This was corupletely er- 
 roneous. He had examined him on 
 the di positions of persons of the highest 
 respectability. 
 
 Th( ATTORNEY-G ENER ALsaid, 
 that if his learned friend complained 
 of what appeared in the public papers, 
 he had much more reason tor doing so. 
 He did not know whether their lord- 
 ships ever saw the newspapers ; but 
 there was in one of them, * The Times/ 
 a most unjustifiable attack on the law-- 
 officers of the Crown; and liighly im- 
 proper comments on the evidence. He, 
 however, should not have said a word 
 on the subject, had not his learned 
 friend culled their lordships' attention 
 to it. 
 
 Examination of FRANCISCO DI 
 ROLLO continued by Mr. l»ARR. 
 
 During your voyage from Jatl'a did 
 you see the curtains of the tent let 
 down in the day-time? — I did. 
 
 What time of' the day ?— In the morn- 
 ing when I got irp. 
 
 Did you si e tliem down sometimes 
 in the middle of the day r — Yes, aI*oi 
 in the middle of rh( day. 
 
 What persons w* re under the tent 
 when the curtains were let down ?— A> 
 I usital, Bergami and the Prinecss. 
 
EVIDENCE OP I^RANCISCO DI ROLLO. 
 
 97 
 
 Did yon accompany the Princess on 
 shore when she landed and went to 
 Jerusalem ? — Yes. 
 
 Did vou also go with her to Ephesns ? 
 —Idid. 
 
 Do you recollect how the dinner for 
 the Princess was prepared there? — I 
 do not remember. We lived at the 
 Consul's, and I do not know exactly. 
 
 Do yon recollect where the Princess 
 dined ? — I was not in the same family, 
 and did not pay attention. 
 
 Did you go with the Princess to 
 Scala Nuova? — No, I went on with the 
 luggage. 
 
 Were you at Villa d'E'ste with the 
 Princess ? — Yes. 
 
 Have you also been at the Barona 
 and Villa Villani ? — T have. 
 
 Had you opportunities at the Villa 
 Villani, at the Barona, and at the Villa 
 d'Este, of seeing the Princess and Ber- 
 gami together before the voyage ?— 
 Not at the Barona before the voyage. 
 
 Did you see them together at the 
 Villa Villani and the Villa d'Este be- 
 fore the voyage ? — Yes. 
 
 On these occasions, when you saw 
 them together, how did they conduct 
 themselves ? — 
 
 Dr. LUSHINGTON and Mr. 
 BROUGHAM objected to this ques- 
 tion ae too general. 
 
 The SOLICITOR GENERAL 
 
 thought it was a question fit to be put. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR was 
 
 also of opinion that it might be put, 
 
 and the question was repeated. 
 
 On those occasions how did they 
 conduct themselves? — They were arm 
 in arm. 
 
 Have you seen them together more 
 than once? — ^Yes, many a time. 
 
 Did you ever see them together in 
 the kitchen ? — I have. 
 
 What did they do when together 
 there? — Sometimes they ordered some- 
 thing to be prepared, or something to 
 eat. 
 
 When you, saw them together, was 
 there any body with them ? or were 
 they alone? — Sometimes alone; some- 
 times with the dame d'honneur. 
 
 Was that the Countess (»ldi?— No; 
 it was Bergami's sister. 
 
 In what manner did they i-at when 
 they came together into the kitchen ? — 
 [The witness, after having given his 
 answer, continued to speak, and thus 
 interrupted the Interprever in translat- 
 ing. The Interpreter therefore begged 
 of their lordships to allow him to in- 
 
 ^ 13 
 
 form the witness that he must hold his 
 tongue while he was giving the transla- 
 tion of his answer. This was done ac- 
 cordii 
 put.] 
 
 In what manner did they eat? — She 
 cut a piece, and ate herself; a»d then 
 cut another piece, and said to Bergami, 
 ** There, eat you also." 
 
 [In giving this answer the witness 
 made the motion of picking up some- 
 thing, and eating.] 
 
 Did you ever seethe Princess and 
 Bergami on the lake together? — Yes. 
 
 Was any person with them? or were 
 they by themselves ? — Sometimes they 
 were alone, and sometimes he rowed 
 the boat. 
 
 Do you recollect a person named 
 Mahomet .?— Yes. 
 
 Did you ever see him make any ex- 
 hibitions in the presence of the Prin- 
 cess? — I have. 
 
 How was he dressed ? in the Eu- 
 ropean or the Turkish manner ? — In 
 the Turkish. 
 
 Describe what he did? — Here the 
 witness danced about, snapped his 
 fingers as if using castanets, made se- 
 veral pantomimical gestures, and sang 
 Dami, JOimi; Danii, Dimi. 
 
 The Interpreter. — How am I to in- 
 terpret that ? Y'our lordships see it as 
 well as I. 
 
 Did he do any thing with his trow- 
 sers.? — He made a sort of roll with 
 them to represent something, 1 do not 
 know how to call it. 
 
 Was the Princess present ?— She was 
 looking on, and laughed. 
 
 Will the witness describe what Ma- 
 homet did with the roll he made of 
 his trowsers ? — He took it in his hand, 
 and made gesticulations ; I cannot say 
 {non posso dire) what he meant tore- 
 present. 
 
 What do you mean when you say 
 non posso </ire?— That I cannot say 
 what he had in his head to represent.' 
 
 Did this exhibition by Mahomet take 
 place before the Princess more than 
 once?-^I have seen her see it once in 
 the kitchen, and another time when 
 he was in the court, and she at the 
 window. 
 
 Were you at Turin with the Prin- 
 cess.'— Yes. 
 
 Was she at an inn there ? — Yes. 
 Do you recollect her going to court 
 any day.?— I do. 
 
 Were you on that morning in Berga- 
 mi's bed-room ? — I was. 
 
9S 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 At what time rn the morning? — 
 About uine, or past nine. 
 
 Did tlie Princess get up at that 
 time ? — I do not know. 
 
 For what piirpose did you go into 
 Bergami's bed room ?— I was carrying 
 a ruff for the neck, and a pair of 
 " glovt^, to the dame dhonneur. 
 
 Did the door of the dame dlionneur's 
 cliamber open into Bergami's? — You 
 entered the roow of Bergami, and on 
 the right was the door of the dame 
 d'lionucur. 
 
 Did Bergami's bed appear to have 
 been slept in ? — At the moment I was 
 coming out of the room of the dame 
 d'honneur I saw Bergami cominjf out 
 of .the Princess's . bed-room, and he 
 srolSed me. 
 
 What dress was Bergami in at this 
 time?— He had on his morning-gown 
 of striped silk, and he had his under 
 small clothes, drawers, stackiugs, and 
 slippers. 
 
 Dp you recollect any bail at the 
 Barona? — Yes. 
 
 Who attended it ?— The people of the 
 ncighbourliood, people of low and mid- 
 dle Tanks. 
 
 CROSS^-EXAMINATION. 
 
 IMr. BROUGHAM.— When did you 
 come to this couutry ?— When they 
 brought me. 
 
 About what time was that? — About 
 eight or nine months ago. 
 
 Where were you before? — Witlj my 
 master. 
 
 Who is he ? — Tlie Marf],uis Encisa. 
 How long have you been in his ser 
 vice? — Three years. 
 
 When were yoji first examined on 
 this business? — About twenty-two or 
 twenty-three months ago, at Milan. 
 
 Who examined you at Milan? — The 
 Advocate Vilmarcati. 
 
 Were any other persons by, when 
 you were examined? — Yco, three or 
 four gentlemen. 
 
 Have you ever seen them since ? — I 
 have seen one of them. 
 
 Was that before you came here ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 Did you g6 to Vilmarcati's yourself, 
 or did any body take you ? — They sent 
 for me, saying that tliey wanted to 
 speak to me. 
 
 Was it that tim« that you agreed to 
 come over here ?-^Yes. . 
 
 How often wereyou at Vilmarcati's ? 
 — iTR'ice. 
 
 What is the name of the geullcman 
 you knew? — Colonel Brown. 
 
 Was it he that sent for you I — Yes. 
 How did yoHi know him ? — Because 
 I saw him at the A'lvocate's, and he 
 lived near ray house. 
 
 Do you mean at Milan ? — Yes. • 
 What wages had you from the Mar- 
 quis ? — A livre of Milan per day,«'ating, 
 drinking, everything comfortable, and 
 perquisites, which were many. 
 
 What wages had you from the Prin- 
 cess ? — Every three mouths ten Napo- 
 leons, tliat is to say, ten 20 francs. 
 
 There were no perquisites in the 
 house of the Princess, I take for^rant- 
 ed? — I never received any presents, 
 except when we returned from t'uo 
 voyage ; Be rgami gave me two dollars 
 wlif u he was made a baron. 
 Were you not cook r — Yes. 
 Had you no perquisites as cook? did 
 you make nothing besides your wages ? 
 —The profits I left to tlie other people 
 who worked with me, and whose pay 
 was small. , . 
 
 Did Bergami pay you? — Yes. '-:,.. 
 Did not Bergami overlook the ac- 
 counts of the house? 
 
 Interpreter. — ^You mean look over, 
 not overlook. (A laugh.) 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM stood corrected. 
 Did not Bergami look over the ac- 
 counts ? — Yes. 
 
 Was he not very exact ? — I do not 
 know that. 
 
 ' When on board the ship, was it your 
 business to be on deck, or to be below**, 
 cooking ? — I worked in the kitchen. 
 Where was the kitchen ? — On deck. 
 Where did the maids of the Prince5« 
 sleep? — I do not know. 
 
 WLer3 did Jeronimus sleep? — Tlmt 
 I knew, because 1 used to go into his 
 cabin to have a glass. His room was 
 in a corner. 
 
 Wliere did Mr. Hannam sleep, the 
 English gentleman? — I do not know in 
 which ^cabin he slept, diere were so 
 many right and left ; but I know he 
 slept in one. 
 
 Where did Captain Fiinn sleep r—^ 
 In seme room, but I do not know 
 which. 
 
 What have you had for coming here ? 
 — Nothing but trouble. 
 
 Do you expect any thing ?— I hope 
 to i'»- ^oon home, to find my master. 
 ^Are yon not to have a livre a day 
 while you are absent from your master ; 
 or is any one to Ivave a livre a day for 
 you? — My daughter is to have a livre 
 
CROSS-EXAMINATION OF FRANCISCO DI IIOLLO. 
 
 99 
 
 a day ; hut I have received no letters, 
 and I do not know if she has got the 
 njoncy. 
 
 Examined bv the Honse. 
 
 Earl of LIVERPOOL.— When yau 
 raid that Bt'cgiinii's bed appeared to 
 bemadt',did yo'u nieanthatit appeared 
 as if it hud not beep sU^pt in?— I do. 
 
 Marquis of LANSDOWN.— Bo you 
 renK-mber to have seen Maliomet par- 
 form the same dance, vehich you de 
 5cribe him to have performed before 
 tl:* P'incess, in the presence of other 
 members of the family, the Princew 
 h^lftg ab^ient? — Yes, he played the 
 sam^ trirks b°fore us many times. 
 
 How did you know it to be the Prin- 
 cess's room out of which you sawBer- 
 gaml come ?— Because, when I was or- 
 dered to carry in breakfast f went to 
 carry it, and I saw the Princess com- 
 ing out of the same room, combed and 
 dressed. 
 
 Duke of HAMILTON.— At what 
 timeofdaY^vasthI8? — Not fully dressed 
 for goina: out ; but in her usual dress, 
 and combed. 
 
 I ask at what time of day was it when 
 it appeared to you that the bed was 
 not made? What time was it in th«: 
 morning when Bergami was coming 
 out of the room? Was it when the 
 Princess was preparing to go to 
 Court? *' 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR de- 
 sired the ^horr-hand-writer.to read the 
 former questions and answers, as to 
 the witness seeing Bergami come out 
 of the Princess's room. 
 
 The questions were read. 
 
 Earl of LAUDERDALE. —When 
 Bergami came out of the Princess's 
 , . room, what did he say to the witnesj^? 
 f — He said, "You scoundrel, what do 
 you do here? Who has opened the 
 doori*"^ — I answered that 1 found it 
 open. He then said, " Go away." 
 . Lord Viscount FALMOUTH.— 
 
 ^ Witness has stated that Bergami looked 
 ov( r his accounts. Had he ever any 
 quarrel with Borgami respecting tliose 
 accounts ?-— Ytis, I have liad some dis- 
 putes. 
 
 Did those disjmtes happen jiust be- 
 fore he left the service of the Princess, 
 or at what time? — I have had some 
 disputes with Bergami before I left 
 the service of the Priuccas, and with 
 his brother. 
 
 Wh^n you Icf^ the service of the 
 Princeas/did ihe,i;ivp,yott ?i good clia- , 
 
 racter? — No; because I did not ask 
 for it. 
 
 Did you leave her service of your 
 own accord, or were you discharged ? 
 — ^Thcre vias some quarrel, up or 
 down: and they said ^* You may go,** 
 and I went. 
 
 Ea flGKOSVENOR.— At what time 
 in the morning wore the beds com- 
 inoijly made while you were at Turin? 
 — [ did not go to make the beds. 
 
 That 1^ nor an answer to my question. 
 
 The IN rERPRETER— i am aware 
 of that, my lord ; but I must give the 
 answer which I receive from the wit- 
 ness. 
 
 The Question repeated. — I cannot 
 say, for there was a servant, the chas- 
 seur, who made the beds. It was only 
 accidentally that I entered the room. 
 
 Was it your duty, as c6ok, to carry- 
 in the breakfast? — There were the 
 waiters of the inn to do that. 
 
 Was Mahomet one of those particu- 
 larly employed in the service of the 
 Princess? — Mahomet had the care of 
 the horses ; he was employed in the 
 stable. 
 
 The Earl of DARLINGTON.— Do 
 3'ou remember the Ring and Queen 
 coming to visit the Princess at Turin? 
 —Yes. 
 
 Did the Princess go out airing with 
 the King and Queon. — Yes. 
 
 Did Bergami go in the same car- 
 riage ? — The Princess went out with 
 the King and Queen; Bergami fol- 
 lowed ; but the King had the arm of 
 the Princess. 
 
 Did Bergami go out in the same car- 
 riage? — This I cannot say. I know 
 he also went out in a carriage, for 
 there were three carriages; but I can- 
 not tell in which. 
 
 Do you remcyibcr at what time the 
 Princess went to Court?— When she 
 went out for the airing, it was about 
 eleven ii\the morning; when she went 
 to dinner, it was one. i 
 
 Earl of MORTON.— The witness 
 has said, speaking of Bergaml's bed, 
 that it appeared, upon the occasion he 
 referred to, to be made. Is it usual to I 
 make up the bed in a differentform for ' 
 the flay and for the night?— There must 
 be a maimer: I do not know; I knov5^ 
 that in my house the bed is made in 
 the morning. 
 
 Lord AUCKLAND.— At what hour 
 did you see the Princess go to Court ? 
 ^— About half-past oine or ten. 
 
100 
 
 THIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 Re-examined- by Mr. BROUGHAM, 
 fhroneh the medium of the LORD- 
 GHANCELLOR. 
 
 While you were in the service of the 
 Princess were you not confined to 
 your bed in consequence of a hurt re- 
 ceived in a scuffle ? — Yes. 
 
 Do you remember the Princess com- 
 ing to yonr room to see if you were 
 well treated ? — 1 do ; and Bergami. 
 
 Lord ELLEN BOROUGH.-Atwhat 
 hour did the Princess come to sec you r 
 —The hour I do not know. I know I 
 was half asleep, and Bergami said, 
 ** Mind, it is the Princess come to see 
 you." 
 
 Did the Princess come more than 
 once ? — Once. 
 
 By night or day ? — By day. 
 
 Were you in bed at the time of the 
 Princess coming? — 1 was. 
 
 The Eail of CARNARVON.— Did 
 the Princess come alone? — Bergami 
 Cdine with her. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 FIFTH WITNESS. 
 
 [Samuel George Pechell.] 
 
 Captain Samuel George Pechell 
 sworn, and examined by the ATTOR- 
 NEY-GENERAL. - 
 
 You are an officer in his Majesty's 
 navy? — I am. 
 
 You commanded the Clorinde in the 
 year 181.5?— I did. 
 
 Were you atCivita-Vecchia in March, 
 1815 ? — I was. 
 
 Did you there receive the Princess 
 on board the Clorinde ? — I did. 
 
 Do you remember by whom she was 
 accompanied upon that occasion.? — 
 By Lady Charlotte Lindsay, Mr. North, 
 Dr. Holland, Madame Falconet, and 
 by various servants. 
 
 Among those servants do you re- 
 HKBiber B€>rgami .? — 1 do. 
 
 In what capacity did Bergami ap- 
 pear on board the Clorinde? — As a 
 menial servant. 
 
 Were you in the habit of dining with 
 tlie Princess at the time she was on 
 board the Clorinde? — I was. The 
 Princess was entertained at my table. 
 
 Did Bergami vait at table? — Every 
 day. 
 
 Pid he wait as a menial servapt, as 
 any other servant? — He did. 
 
 Where did you convey the Princess 
 at that time ? — To Genoa. 
 
 Did you touch at Leghorn?— We 
 d^d. 
 
 Did any of the suite of the Princefn 
 quit the ship at Leghorn ?— Lady 
 Charlotte Lindsay and Mr. North. 
 
 Was there not a boy named Austin 
 on board ? — There was. 
 
 Did the Princess quit the ship at 
 Oenoa with her suite? — She did. 
 
 Do you remember how long the 
 Princess was on board your vessel at 
 that time .'' — Seven or eight days. 
 
 During the autumn of the same year 
 were you again at Genoa.? — I was, in 
 August, 1815. 
 
 Did the Princess in that month em- 
 bark at Genoa on board the Leviathan ? 
 —Not until November. . 
 
 Did you seethe Piincess between 
 the time of her departure in March 
 until you saw her in November at 
 Genoa? — No. 
 
 Did you see her at the time when 
 she came to embark on board the Le- 
 viathan.? — I did. 
 
 Did you s^e her come down to the 
 vessel in her carriage ? — I did. 
 
 Who accompanied her in the car- 
 riage ? — I remember the Countess of 
 Oldi, Bergami, and an infant j but I 
 do not remember any other persons. 
 
 Did you go in the Clorinde from Ge- 
 noa to Sicily ? — I did. 
 
 Had you directions to go to Sicily 
 for the purpose of receiving the Prin- 
 cess there? — I had. 
 
 At what time did you arrive in Si- 
 cily?— On the 7th of December. 
 
 Where in Sicily did you receive the 
 Princess on board ? — At Messina. 
 
 Previous to your receiving the Prin- 
 cess for the second time on board the 
 Clorinde, had any communication 
 taken place between her Royal High.- 
 ness and yourself.? — Yes. 
 
 What was the nature of that com- 
 munication? — I received a letter from 
 Mr. Hannam, informing me that the 
 Princess intended to embark from Ge- 
 noa in the Clorinde. 
 
 That was before ypu left Genoa? — 
 Yes. 
 
 You had another communication att , 
 Messina? — Yes. 
 
 State the nature of it. — The morning 
 after I arrived at Messina, Captain 
 Briggs informed me that the Priuce&9 
 expressed some uneasiness at the pro- 
 spect of keepfog her own table on 
 board the Clorinde. I therefore de- 
 sired Captain Briggs to say to the 
 Princess in my name, that I was readf 
 to do every thin^ in my power to make 
 her comfortable while she was on board 
 
EVIDENCE OF CAPTAIN BniGOS. 
 
 101 
 
 the Clorinde, provided she would be 
 l^loased to make a sacrifice, which my 
 duty as an officer compelled me to 
 exact, by not insisting upon the admis- 
 sion of lierganii to my table; for that 
 although now admitted to the society 
 of her Royal Highness, he had been a 
 menial servant when she had last em- 
 barked on board the Clorinde. In the 
 afternoon of the same day I saw Cap- 
 tain Britfgs, who «aid that he had had 
 a conference with the Princess, as I 
 had deeired, aud that, from the tenonr 
 of his conversation with her, he be- 
 lieved there would be no difficulty in 
 my request being acceded to, but that 
 her Royal Highness required a day to 
 consider the subject. The Leviathan 
 sailed on the following day, and on the 
 morning after I visited the Princess, 
 ^ with a view to know her determina- 
 tion. The Princess declined seeing 
 me herself, but desired Mr. Hannam 
 to inform me that my request would 
 not be acceded to ; and, in consequence, 
 h€r Royal Highness provided her own 
 table. 
 
 How soon after that did the Prin- 
 cess embark on board the Clorinde at 
 Messina? — On thn 6th of January fol- 
 lowing. 
 
 How long was that after the commu- 
 nication of which you have spoken? — 
 About a month. 
 
 Who accompanied the Princess on 
 this s<?cond lime of her coming on 
 board?— The Countess of Oldi, Ber- 
 garni, Master Austin, a Count whose 
 name I understood to be Schiavini, and 
 various servants. 
 
 Was there a little child ?— There 
 was; I understood it to be Bergami's 
 child. 
 
 Where did the Princess dine while 
 »he was on board ? — In her own cabin. 
 
 Do you know who dined with her? 
 — I do not. 
 
 She did not dine at your table.? — She 
 did not. 
 
 How long did she remain on board 
 the Clorinde? — Three or fonrdavs. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM declined asking 
 the witness any question. 
 
 The Earl of OXFORD wished to 
 ask Captain Pechell one question. If 
 he had seen, at his (Lord Oxfords) or 
 any onp else's house, a lad waiting at 
 tabl« ; and that lad had afterwards 
 been made a midshipman, and, by his 
 inerit, risen to the rank of Captain, 
 would Captain Pechell then refuse to 
 
 sit down to dinner with him at his 
 (Lord Oxford's) table ? 
 
 THE LORD - CHANCELLOR 
 thought that the witness might be 
 asked what his conduct had been upon 
 the occasion in question; but not what 
 his conduct would be in another case, 
 (Hear, hear.) 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 SIXTH WITNESS. 
 
 [Thomas Buiggs.] 
 
 Captain Thomas Briggs sworn, and 
 examined by the ATTORNEY-GE- 
 NERAL. 
 
 You are a captain in his Majesty's 
 navy? — I am. 
 
 Did you in the yenr 1815 command 
 the ship Leviathan ? — I did. 
 
 Were you in Genoa in the course of 
 that year ? — I was i in November. 
 
 Ibelieve your vessel was ordered to 
 Genoa, to convey the Princess and her 
 suite to Sicily ? — ^Yes. . 
 
 Did the Princess and her suite em- 
 bark on board the Leviathan, at Ge- 
 noa? — Yes. 
 
 Can you tell by whom ber Highness 
 was accompanied ? — ^By her suite. 
 
 Of whom did that suite consist? — 
 Bergami, Mr. Hanuam, I think Schia- 
 vini, and two or three other foreigners. 
 The names of the servants I do not 
 know. There was also the Countess 
 of Oldi and two maid-servants. 
 
 Do you remember the Princess 
 coming down to embark ? — Yes. 
 
 Who came in tlie carriage with her 
 — The Countess Oldi, Bergami, a^child, 
 and, I think, another person. 
 
 Did the Princess dine at yx)ur table? 
 — Always. 
 
 Did Bergami dine with her? — 
 Always. 
 
 What disposition had yon made of 
 the cabins on board your vessel for the 
 accommodation of the Princess before 
 she came on board ? — I had made such 
 an ai rangement as I thought would ac- 
 commodate all parties. 
 
 With respect to the sleeping-rooms, 
 where did yon design the cabin of the 
 Princess? — The after-pait of tlie Le- 
 viathan was divided into two cabins^ 
 which I intended for the Princess; 
 one as a sleeping room, the other as a 
 drawing-room. Before that, there 
 were two other smaller cabins in aline • 
 with each other, which I intended far 
 the C'Ountess Oldi aud two maid-gcr- - 
 
102 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEy. 
 
 vtints : a4id I meant to put the men any 
 vrhorc ; somo. in the wardroom, some 
 in my own cabin, as I might find most 
 convenient, reserving a part of the 
 cahin for myself. 
 
 Was that disposition altered when 
 the }*rineess came on board? — Yes. 
 
 A plan was here presented to the 
 witness. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM did not object 
 to the plan heing placed in the hands 
 of Captain Briggs, bnt would object to 
 it if offered to any other witness. 
 
 Captain Bri2:gs declared that the 
 plan was unnecessary. 
 
 Were the cabins meant by yon for 
 the Countess Okli and the female ser- 
 vants innViediately adjoining that of 
 the Princess? — They were. 
 
 In what manner was the arran^ie- 
 ment altered? — An alteration took 
 place in the door of the cabin which I 
 meant for the Conntess Oldi, and Ber- 
 gami was put in«o it. 
 
 What alteration took place in the 
 door? — The two small cabins, which 
 were to have contained the Conntess 
 Oldi and the maid-?ervants, had com- 
 munications w ithip each other. Whcii 
 the Princess came on board, she sard 
 t^iat she desired Bergami's cabin to be 
 changed to that which I had intended 
 for the Countess Oldi. Originally, tt. 
 have gone into that cabin yen must 
 have passed throughlhe room intended 
 for the maid servants ; but when this 
 alteration took place, the door cf 
 communication between those two 
 rooms was nailed up, and a door was 
 opened from Bergami's room, which 
 ciunc out close to the room occupied 
 by the Princess. 
 
 So that, after the alteration, the door 
 iwto the room appropriated to Ber- 
 ^anii was near to the door of the cabin 
 of the Princess? — It was. 
 
 Have you ever seen the Princess 
 walking with Ber^ami ? — I have. 
 
 In what way?— Arm in arm. That, 
 I think, was at Messina. I did not 
 think it at all uncommon. [Here the 
 V itness dropped his voice.] 
 
 Not uncommon, considering the 
 terms they were upon, did you say ? — 
 I said not uncommon, because it hap^ 
 pened occasionally. 
 
 Do you remember waiting on the 
 Princess at Messina, in consequence 
 of the request of Captain Pechell ? — 
 On the wish of Captain Pecbell I 
 ■waited on lier Royal Highness wiien 
 »he was about embarking on board the 
 
 Clqrin^f. I asked her Koya! Higfi-'' 
 neap's permission to speak to her on 
 the subject of Bergami's dhiing at the 
 Captain's table. I had been told that 
 Boigami had filled the Mtuation of a 
 a servant. Her Royal Highness said, 
 '^'Hellas sat at ti»e table with me, and I 
 cannot conceive what objection can be 
 made to it now.** I observed that Ber- 
 gami had never been a servant on 
 board my ship — if he had, it would 
 have been impossible to admit him to 
 my table. 
 
 Did yon communicate what past be-" 
 twern yourself and her Royal Highness 
 to Captain Pechell ?— I did. 
 
 Then yon left Messinaf — I did; I 
 left it on llth of December, three or 
 four days afterwa» ds. 
 
 CROSS-EXAMINATION. 
 
 Cross-examined by Mr. DENMAN. 
 — In the course of the conversation 
 with Captain Peehell respecting her 
 Royal Highness, did you not perceive 
 that' there had been some dispute be- 
 tv\een ihem on a former occasion? — 
 I had seen Captain Pechell before I 
 waited on her Royal Highness. He 
 came to me as senior officer, and told 
 me what. line of conduct he meant to 
 adopt. • ^i 
 
 Did you not know some differenc<ef- 
 cxisted between Jier Royal Highness 
 and Captain Pechell about the stow-' 
 ing of souie lugiiage? — On her Royal 
 Highness's part I did. She said she had " 
 not been treated by Captain Pechell 
 Avith the same degree of accommo- 
 daiion I had afforded her. 
 
 Did it fall to your knowledge to 
 know where the Countess of Oldi slept 
 on board the Leviathan? — It did. 
 
 Was it ill a room adjoining that of her 
 Royal Hiphness? — Yes. 
 
 Was there a door opening from the 
 one to the other? — Yes. 
 
 Did the two apartments open iiito> 
 the dining-room ? — Yes. ^ 
 
 By two doors? — Yes. ' 
 
 I believe the cabin yon provided for 
 the maids was occupied by them ?— Yes, 
 
 And it opened also to the dining- 
 room ? — Y'es ; but there was a smal}^ • 
 cabin between themt 
 
 Re-examined by the ATTORNEY- 
 GENERAL.— Was not this a ship of ^ 
 the line? — ^Yes. . = 
 
 Much larger than the Clorinde, amfc ' 
 capable of affording much more accoiiut/ 
 medation r — Yes, 
 
CROSS EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIK BRIGGS, 
 
 103 
 
 By Lord ELLF.NUOROITCH.— 
 AVas the siceping-room of Captain 
 Briugs closed at night, or did he hang 
 in a" cot? — T slept in a room that was 
 closed at niglit. 
 
 Could persons pass by tliat room 
 ■without observation? — 1 think it possi- 
 ble, but very improbable. Any one 
 ^ttemptino; to do so must run great risk. 
 it might perhaps be done when I was 
 asleep, hut I don't think it likely that 
 any person could pass witliout my 
 knowledge. 
 
 By another Peer. — Were you not 
 frequently on deck ? — I have been fre- 
 tjucntly half a night on deck: I was 
 subject to all calls. I was very con- 
 stantly crut on deck at night. 
 ' Did the witness see any improper 
 familiarity between the Princess and 
 Bergami ? — No ; I saw none. 
 
 Had you any reason to suspect any 
 ■.improper freedom or familiarity be- 
 tween them ?— No, 
 
 By Earl (JBEY.— You had the usual 
 <:omplement of officers on J>oard tlie 
 ship ? — Yes. . . , 
 
 Iia4 tliey not (Constant access to your 
 cabin during tlie night?— Yes. 
 
 Were you not, Captain'Brigga, liable 
 .to be called up at any moment during 
 the night? — Yes. 
 
 By the Enrl of ROSEBERRY.— 
 After the alteration of the roOnis, Cap- 
 tain Brigirs, I want to know whether it 
 was absolutely necessary, in going to 
 you, to pass through Bergami's ro'om ? 
 - — No, it was not. 
 
 I also ask whether, when yon were 
 called »jp in the night, you must in your 
 progress to the deck, necessarily pass 
 through the dining-room? — My cabiu- 
 door opened so that I might pass with- 
 out going through the dining-room. I 
 had only to go through an angle of it. 
 There was no necessity to go immedi- 
 ately through the dining-room, as n)y 
 cabin-door was close to the end of it. 
 Tjicn I am to understand that you 
 did not pass immediately through that 
 room, but through an angle of it only ? 
 ■^ — Yes." 
 
 By anotlier Peer — TTowlon^ washer 
 Royal Highness on board ? — From the 
 ■ l4tli of November to the 4th of De- 
 cember. 
 
 I wish to know whether all those 
 officers who came for orders must not 
 pass througli the dining room?— The 
 door tliat opened into my cabin was iv\ 
 an angle of the dining-room. 
 B^ auotUcr Peer.— I wjjsb particu- 
 
 larly to know, whether, when ofllcers 
 came to the witness for orders, they 
 went through the dining room or not? 
 — 'Ihey must. come into the diiting- 
 rooui hut not through it. They must 
 come over the threshold of the dining- 
 room to get at my cal>in. 
 
 By the Marquis of BUCK IN GHAM. 
 — They did then not go through the 
 dining-room? — To come to my cabin- 
 door, they must positively go into the 
 dining-room, but not through it. 
 
 Does the witness allude to the door 
 at which the sentry stand> ? — Yes. 
 
 By Lord COLVILLE.-Kad the 
 door of your cabin hinges? — Yes. 
 
 What sort of a partition divided the 
 sleeping apartment from the dining- 
 room ? — An ordinary one. 
 
 Did you always cause a light to be 
 kept burning in the dining-room at 
 night? — No. 
 
 Was there any liglit in tlie after- cabin 
 at night.? — There might be a light 
 there ; but I do not know of any. 
 
 By the Earl of LIVERPOOL — 
 Was any light allowed to be burned in 
 the after-cabin ? — A light might have 
 been placed there; but I don't remem- 
 ber one. 
 
 By Lord COLVILLE.— During the 
 time her Royal Highness was on ituard 
 did any person sleep in the dining- 
 room? — Yes. 
 
 Who was that person ? — Master Wm, 
 Austin was one. There w'eve one or 
 two cots besides; but I really cannot 
 tell who slept in them. 
 
 Were there any screen.s round these 
 cots? — There was a screen on she out- 
 side ; the other side adjoined uie ship's 
 timber. 
 
 Supposing her Royal Highness to 
 have wished for the assistance of any 
 of her ftinale attendants', had she a^iy 
 means of communicating with tijiera,by 
 bell or otherwist^ .?— • Yes. 
 
 Where there two doors, or only one, 
 frOra the dinin;»-room to th«? quarter- 
 deck? — There were two doors. 
 
 Were they both used occasionally by 
 
 thp officer of the watch at night? — 'No. 
 
 Which door was he accustomed to 
 
 enter at ?— The left door; the lai'board 
 
 door we call il. 
 
 Was the stasboard door shut?— -It 
 was u.scd for a different pnipo.se. 
 
 If the larboard happened to be the 
 weatlicr side, would the otficer of the 
 watch enter ou the opposite side?r— 
 
 ' By. the Earl of LAUDERpAJLE.— 
 
104 
 
 TRIAL 6F THE QUEEN, 
 
 Wljat answer did the Queen ffive when 
 you spoke to her in consequence of 
 Captain Pecheir* representation ? — 
 She said it was of no conseqnenee ; it 
 •was only to prevent the Captain from 
 keeping two tables that Bergami dined 
 with her at all. I left her under the im- 
 pression that the matter would not be 
 persevered in further, because I re- 
 marked to her how easy it was to send 
 Bergami's dinner to a smaller cabin. 
 
 When her Majesty complained of 
 Captain Pechell's conduct with respect 
 to the lugjjage, was it previously to or 
 after til e comtnnnication with her Ma- 
 jesty of which yoii have spoken ? — I 
 iiever heard any thing in the shape of 
 a complaint; it was a matter of con- 
 versation before Captain Pechell came 
 on board. 
 
 Lord EXMOUTH.— I really don't 
 see the necessity of going into an in- 
 quiry with respect to what Captain 
 Pechtill said. I think it quite unne- 
 cessary to state what took place be- 
 tween him and others. 
 
 The Earl of DERBY wished to ask 
 vvhetlier the alteration of the cabin was 
 directed by the Princess, or by any 
 person in her name ? 
 
 Lord EXMOUTH.—That has been 
 answered already. 
 
 The Earl of DERBY— I don't think 
 that it has. (Order, order.) The ques- 
 tion was not pressed. 
 
 Re-examined by Mr. DENMAN. — 
 I wish to ask Captain Briggs whether 
 he had not received a complaint against 
 Captain Pechell as to the manner in 
 ^vhich herRoyal Highness's baggage was 
 stowed on a fonner voyage ?— I have 
 heardCaptainPechell say thit her Royal 
 Highness had a vast deal of baggage, 
 which lumbered the ship. It was 
 merely in the nature of a remark. It 
 was not a matter of complaint to me' as 
 the.superior officer. 
 
 I don't mean a formal complaint — 
 b,ul observations expressive of dissa- 
 tisfaction, with respect to the baggage, 
 as well as the expenses of the table ? — 
 
 The AtlORNEY-GENERAL in- 
 terposed. — This sort of statement, he 
 couteffded, could not be received as 
 evidence. 
 
 Mr: DENMAN argned that it was 
 evidence which their lordships ought 
 to have before them. If we can show 
 that there were differences between 
 tfiose parties, arising from circum- 
 tance« of a description quite uncon- 
 nected with those stated; he apprehen- 
 
 ded that would have weight a« account* 
 ing, in a considerable degree, for th^ 
 alterations which had been alluded to. 
 
 The ATTORNEY - GENERAL,— 
 This is matter on which Captain Pe- 
 chell should be examined, and not 
 Captain Brig<r.«. 
 
 Mr. DENMAN.— The reason I put 
 it to Captain Briggs is, because he ap- 
 pears between her Majesty and Cap- 
 tain Pecb«n as ncgociator, and must 
 therefore be cognizant of what passed. 
 THE LORD - CHANCELLOR 
 thought it quite clear that the conver- 
 sation between Captain Pechell and 
 Captain Briggs could not be received 
 in evidence, because what occurred 
 with respect to the Queen must be con- 
 sidered as the act of Captain Pechell 
 himself. At the same time, if the op- 
 posite party could show that Captain 
 Pechell, or Captain Briggs, had so 
 acted as to induce her Majesty, under 
 the particular circumstances of the 
 case, to cause certain alterations to be 
 made when she came on board, it was 
 competent for them to do so. 
 
 Mr. DENMAN— I have had an op- 
 portunity of conferring with my learn- 
 ed friends on this subject, and f* de- 
 cline pressing the examinationn fur- 
 ther. 
 
 SEVENTH AriTNESS. 
 
 (PlETRO PUCHI.) 
 
 Pietro Puchi was then called in and 
 sworn. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR di- 
 rected the Interpreter to tell the Mt- 
 ucss to speak audibly. 
 
 The Interpreter desired the witness 
 to speak loud ; and when he addressed 
 him to be silent. 
 
 the SOLICITOR GENERAt.-r- 
 Does the witnest reside at Trieste??^ 
 Yes. :• 
 
 Does he keep an inn tliere? — Yei] I 
 am agent for the grande alber^o it 
 Trif^ste. 
 
 By the Earl of LIVERPOOL.— 
 What do you mean by agent?-^I ato 
 acting for my madam — my dontia. 
 
 The SOLICITOR GENERAL.^ 
 Do you know an inn at Trieste called 
 the Black Eagle.— I do. 
 
 Who keeps, it? — Vincenza Barto- 
 loqui. 
 
 Is that the name of the inn of wbicli 
 you are agmt ?— Yes ; it is the grande 
 albergo of t\\ft town. 
 
 Qo you remember the Princess of 
 Wales.cbmlng to that iun ?— -I do. 
 
KVIDENCB OF PIETHO .PUCIlt. 
 
 lOS 
 
 tn wliat kind of carriage did slie 
 come ? — In a small open carriage with 
 two post horses. 
 
 Who came with her in that carriage? 
 — Bergami was with her, without any 
 other servant at all. 
 
 How long is it since that affair hap- 
 pened ? — ^I do not remember. It is, I 
 suppose, four years ago: I think more 
 than four years. 
 
 How long did her Royal Highness 
 remain at Trieste at that time ?— Six 
 days. 
 
 i)o you know in what apartment her 
 Iloyal Highness slept ? — I do. 
 
 Do you know the apartment allotted 
 <o Bergami ? — I do. 
 
 After her Royal Highness and Ber- 
 gami came in Uie carriage, in the man- 
 ner described, did her suite follow in 
 Other carriages ? — They arrived in 
 about an honr aftef her Royal High- 
 ness. 
 
 Into what apartment did the bed- 
 room of her Royal Highness and the 
 bed-room allotted to Bergami open?. — 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM objected to this 
 question, by which it was assumed, 
 that those two rooms opened into one 
 apartment. 
 
 The SOLICITOR- GENERAL.— 
 Into what place or apartment did the 
 bed-room ofher Royal Highness and 
 that allotted to Bergami open? 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS opposed the ques- 
 tion,as assuming a particular fact. 
 
 The SOLICITOR -GENER ALi— 
 Into what place did the bed-room ofher 
 Royal Highness open ? — The door was 
 facing the room of the dame d'honneur. 
 
 The door, you say, was facing the 
 room of the lady of honour : what was 
 between them ? — The dining-room. 
 
 Did the door of the bed-room occu- 
 pied by her Royal 'Highness open into 
 the dining-room? — Yes. 
 
 Did the door of the bed-room allot- 
 ted to Bergami open also into the di- 
 ning-room ? — The room where Bergami 
 slept opened into the room of the 
 dame d'honneur, who was Bergarai's 
 sister, and that into the salle-a-manger. 
 
 Were there any other doors that 
 opened into that dining-room from the 
 Princess's room? — Yes, the door of 
 No. 4, to go out by. 
 
 W^as that the only other door that led 
 to this dining-room ? — Those that I 
 have mentioned were the only doors. 
 
 Now can the witness tell us' whether 
 the outward door was fastened at 
 night?— It was fastened when they 
 vrent to sleep. 
 
 u 
 
 Was it fastened from the inside or 
 the otitside?— I don't know 'Whether it 
 was shut from the inside or the out- 
 side. I don't know whether it was 
 fastened by the Princess's servants. 
 
 M^as it closed during the six nights 
 her Royal Highness was there? — It 
 was always shut up at night, whenevei' 
 the parties went into the room to sleep* 
 
 What beds were in the bed-room 
 occupied by her Royal Highness? 
 Hovv' many ? — ^There were two beds, 
 near one another. 
 
 What bed or beds were there iil thcT 
 room allotted to Bergami.? — There 
 WHS one bed only. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM corrected the 
 translation of this answer, making it 
 '' one single bed." 
 
 Did the witness at any time during 
 the morning, while her Royal High- 
 ness was at Trieste, see Bergami come 
 out of any room into the dining-room ? 
 — ^I have seen him come from the room 
 of the Princess. 
 
 At <vhat hour?— About 8, or half 
 past 8, in the morning. 
 
 How many times did you see that 
 during the six days her Royal Highness 
 remained at Trieste? — Three or four* 
 times. 
 
 Will the witness describe the man- 
 ner in which Bergami was dressed 
 when coming out of the room of hei* 
 Royal Highness? — He had a dress made 
 in the Polish fashion, with some gold 
 lace on it, which came from the waist 
 down behind. 
 
 What else besides that.? — He had 
 drawers. 
 
 Had he any stockings on?— -Some- 
 times he had stockings, and sometime* 
 pantaloons, which were at once stock- 
 ings and pantaloons ; but I cannot pre- 
 cisely say, for I was looking out through 
 the key-hole of my room. (A laugh.) 
 
 What had he on his feet? — It ap- 
 peared that he had sc(me strings. 
 
 [The interpreter stated that the 
 strings were to fasten the drawers.] 
 
 At the time you saw this, was, the di^ 
 ning-roora door open? — It was still 
 closed. 
 
 What led you to look through the 
 keyhole in the manner you have de- 
 scribed? 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS submitted that the 
 motives of the witness could not be re- 
 ceived in evidence. 
 
 The SOLICITOR -GENERAL—^ 
 Where did the witness himself remain 
 in the morning, before he went into 
 the dining-room ?-r-In my o>yn jt'oom. 
 
106 
 
 tniAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 which was at the end of the dining- 
 room. 
 
 Where was the door from which you 
 looked? — (The witness here pointed 
 out, witl^ his hand, the relative situa- 
 tion of the rooms.)— My room was be- 
 tween the corridor andthe*«/Ze-a-»u»«- 
 ger, having a door leading to the salle- 
 a-nianger: and from the key-hole of 
 that door I looked into the latter room. 
 
 What were you doing in your own 
 room at that time ? — I was there with 
 my service, to give them (the Princess 
 and suite) breakfast when they asked 
 for it. I was also putting my knives, 
 forks, &c., in order. 
 
 Did you go into the dining-room at 
 the time ? — When they asked for break- 
 fast, I answered them. 
 
 Did you remain there witli thehreak- 
 fast-service or did you go back? — I 
 remained with the breakfast-service in 
 my own room. 
 
 Were you afterwards summoned to 
 go with the service into the dining- 
 room? — ^I was, and I carried the things 
 there. 
 
 , Did you go in before you were cal- 
 leil for that purpose ? — ^Never. 
 
 Did you, while she was there, ever 
 see the Princess and Bergami walk- 
 tog? — All day, every day. 
 
 The Interpreter stated that the wit- 
 ness meant ** they were always to- 
 gether." 
 
 In what way? — Sometimes in the hall, 
 sometimes in the salle-a-manger, and 
 sometimes iu the room of the dame 
 ditonneur. 
 
 Did they walk together, separately, 
 or in a familiar manner? — -They were 
 sometimes alone : sometimes thoy turn- 
 ed round and spoke to the suite; some- 
 times on one side, and sometimes on 
 the other. 
 
 Iu what manner did they walk to- 
 gether? Were they near each other 
 or separate ?— They did not touch each 
 other, as far as I have seen ; but they 
 walked arm in arm. (A laugM.) 
 
 Did the witness ever seethe Prince s^s 
 with any other person, while she was 
 at Trieste, besides Bergami ? — Yes; 
 there was a Count Dore, who con- 
 ducted her Majesty to the theatre. 
 He came to hand her in and out. She 
 gave her right hand to the Count, and 
 her left to Bergami. 
 
 Did you make any observations on 
 the bed assigned to Bergami?— Yes, 
 I have. 
 
 Did that bed appear to have been 
 »l^t in? — Never, 
 
 1 wish to know whether, after Ber- 
 gami went away, you made any obser- 
 vations on the sheets of the bed ?— The 
 sheets were put on the bed clean) and 
 were taken away clean. 
 
 How many pots-de-chambre were 
 there in the Princess's bed-room?— ^ 
 There were two. 
 
 Were they both made use of? — I did 
 say yes. 
 
 Were there more than one wash-hand- 
 stand and basin iii the room ? — There 
 were two. 
 
 Did they appear both to have been 
 used, or only one? — I don't remember; 
 many travellers wish two basins, and 
 yet tliey may be alone. 
 
 Were you present when her Royal 
 Highness went away? — I was. 
 
 How did she go away ? — In the same 
 way in which she arrived; in the same 
 open carriage. 
 
 Did Bergami go with her ? — Yes. 
 
 This closed the examination in chief 
 of this witness. 
 
 CROSS - EXAMINATION. 
 
 Cross-examined by Mr. WIL- 
 LIAMS.— How long was it between 
 the times that the Princess departed 
 and the time her suite set out? — About 
 a quarter of an hour : not quite so 
 much : almost immediately. 
 
 Haveyou any doubt of the Princess's 
 having remained so long as 5 or 6 days i 
 — Qf that I am quite sure. 
 
 Are you sure of it? — No more. 
 
 But are you sure that she remained 
 so long as 5 or 6 days ? — Yes. 
 
 Do you remember the days of the 
 week — the day on which came ? — I 
 don't remember. 
 
 Do you remember the day in which' 
 she went away ? — Never ; if any body 
 had told me something to that point, 
 I might have ascertained it, btit I don't 
 remember- 
 As the time is lotig, perhaps your 
 memorv is not fresh ? 
 
 (Tha SOLICITOR-GENERAL ob- 
 jected to this question, and it was not 
 pressed.) 
 
 Did the room of which you speak 
 open into the dining-room, aye, or no? 
 — There was a secret door that could 
 not be known to be a door to any one 
 in the dining-room. 
 
 That nobodj'kuew? — Yes. 
 * Was that part in which the door was 
 covered with tapestry, or was it wood 
 like the rest, or how ? — It was covered 
 With painted canvass. • 
 
 Wiiich covered the whcrie, so that a 
 
CROSS-EXAMINATION OF PIETHO PUCHI. 
 
 107 
 
 pwson in the dininji-room could not 
 tell whether there was u Uoor or uotr 
 
 -,i\0. 
 
 I ask whether it was impossible for 
 any person in the diuinj;-room to know 
 if there was a door or not ? — It was 
 impossible, except for one of the family. 
 Was not the reason of the impossi- 
 bility because the door was entirely 
 covered with canvass ? — Yes. 
 
 Then I understand you right when I 
 say that the reason why no stranger 
 could find out the door was, that it 
 was wholly covered with canvass ? — 
 Yes. 
 It was entirely covered ? — Entirely. 
 Are you still agent, or by whatever 
 other name than agent you may be 
 called, for the Grand Hotel at Trieste? 
 — I am after taking the inn which is 
 called the Black Eagle; but if I don't 
 gain the trial (the law-suit), I shall 
 continue to be in the Grand Hotel. 
 
 (This answer appeared to excite a 
 considerable sensation. The SOLI- 
 CITOR GENERAL thought the 
 ineaning of the witness was, ** If I 
 don't gain what I attempt to gain." 
 The short-hand writer was desired to 
 read the answer, and the word " law^ 
 suit " was retained as the correct trans- 
 lation.) 
 
 I do not ask what you are to be here- 
 after, b«it whether you are still agent 
 for the Grand Hotel ? — I am not sure, 
 because the inn is exposed to an auc- 
 tion every nine years. The lease has 
 expired, anrl I don't know whether my 
 principal will buy the lease or not, be- 
 cause it belongs to the corporation. 
 
 As agent to the Grand Hotel, was it 
 nat chiefly your business to wait on 
 the guests? — I have waited on them; 
 I am always the person. 
 The head waiter? — Yes. 
 Th«n was it not your business al- 
 ways to wait oil the guests ? — Both. 
 
 Both what?— Both the one and the 
 other. 
 
 What other?— As I am the oldest 
 servant in the house, I know the rooms 
 of the house better than any other per- 
 son in the family. 
 
 Had you any other waiter under 
 yon ? — Two more. 
 
 Were they men ? — The one was a 
 lad of the name of Jousson, and the 
 •ther was called Bernardo. 
 
 Then there were two other men — 
 their names I am not asking ? — Two 
 men. 
 Then, if I understand you right, yon 
 
 had the superintendence of these, and 
 yourself assisted as a waiter? — I at- 
 tended to all the affairs of both of- 
 fices. 
 
 Were there no female servants be- 
 longing to the inn at the time the Prin- 
 cess of Wales was there?— There was 
 one. 
 What was her name?— Maria Mora. 
 I wish to ask, when you talk of the 
 door being fastened every night, whe- 
 ther you do not speak of what was done 
 by the other servants; whether that 
 was done by some of the servants of 
 the inn ?— No ; the waiters had nothing 
 to do with it. 
 
 What do you mean when you say 
 that No. 4 was fastened ? I wish to 
 know if that was done by yourself or 
 by any of the servants ? — It was shut 
 by themselves ; I don't know whether 
 by any of the Princess's suite or by 
 Bergami. 
 
 How long was it after the Princess 
 was there that you were first examined 
 on this subject? — I think about three 
 years. Before I was examined it was 
 past two years and a half. 
 
 I heard you say, I think, that a great 
 number of guests were in the habit of 
 coming to that inn ? — Yes. 
 
 You have said it is the cliief inn for 
 travellers in that place : is it so ?— It 
 is the best inn. 
 
 At the end of the two and a half or 
 the three years, who applied to you to 
 know what you had to say ? — Some one 
 who came to dine at the inn, who asked 
 me "How did the Princess conduct 
 herself?" and I answered, " I can't 
 complain ; she behaved very well." 
 
 Have you been at Milan? — Yes. 
 
 More than once ? — If I must go to 
 my own country, I must go to Milan. 
 I have been there five. or six times. 
 
 What countryman are you ? — I come 
 from A^ti, in Piedmont. 
 
 Did you go to Milan to make a die- 
 position of what you knew? — Yes, 
 about eighteen months ago. 
 
 Who examined you ?"Colonel Brown. 
 
 Did any law man assist? — ^Yes, a 
 lawyer who is here, but I don't re- 
 member his name. 
 
 Should you recollect if I assisted yon 
 with his name? Was it Mr. Powell? 
 —Yes. 
 
 Was Counsellor Cookthere ?— I don't 
 know what he is called but there was 
 one whom I considered a Milanese. 
 
 Was his name Vilmarcati i — I dont 
 know* 
 
lOS 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 You werp. at that time regularly ex- 
 amined ? — ^Yes, I was. 
 
 Was your examination taken in writ- 
 ing? — 1 believe so. 
 
 And you gave a full account then of 
 tlie room, and of all that you have told 
 to-day? — What I can say before God, 
 I have said here and at Milan. 
 
 Have you been examined in England 
 by the same gentleman that examined 
 you at Milan ?— No. 
 
 Not by any body? — I was examined 
 in the presence of the present gentle- 
 men, and the advocate whom we have 
 mentioned. 
 
 What do you mean?^ — I have been 
 examined on the same subject. 
 
 By whom ? — By the same lawyer, in 
 the presence of you (the Interpreter), 
 and two other gentlemen. 
 
 And when was that ? — I think on the 
 second or third day after my arrival. 
 
 How long have you been here ? — I 
 don't know, but I think about a fort- 
 night. 
 
 Who brought you here ? — Signor 
 Capper. 
 
 Hpw did you come? With Mr. 
 Capper alone, or were there other 
 persons along with you? — I went as 
 far as Boulogne with a certain Andri- 
 atsi, who had been two times at the 
 inn to take me. 
 
 Who is Andriatsi ? — He was a person 
 sent by Colonel Brown from Milan. 
 
 To accompany you on your journey? 
 — Yes. 
 
 I take it for granted you have re- 
 ceived no money?-— I did not wish for 
 any, but he gave rae some. 
 
 You did not wish for any money ? — 
 He told me to take this, and gave me 
 eight gold Napoleons, and eleven 
 francs. 
 
 That is not an answer. But it is 
 true, then, that you were examined 
 here and at Milan, and that your exa- 
 minations were reduced to writing? 
 Your depositiojas were written down 
 at Milan, and you have been examined 
 asrain since your arrival i». t^ugland?— 
 Yes. 
 
 Then it is a mistake of the Attorney- 
 General, I believe, that the room of* 
 Bergami did open into the dining- 
 room ? — That is not tru.e. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL ob- 
 jected ta the question in that form, 
 and several noble lords seemed to sup- 
 port the objection. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS.— If in cross-exa- 
 9)inations I have heard such a question 
 
 j.ut once, I have heard it five hundred 
 times, and I might multiply that by 
 five hundred. 
 
 At the request of the LORD-CHAN- 
 CELLOR, the question was repeated? 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GEN KHAL.— 
 ]My learned friend is entitled to put 
 questions to the witness, but not to 
 make assertions. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR^In 
 cross-examination it is often the prac- 
 tice to put in the form of an as.^ertion 
 what has been proved by the exaniina- 
 tion-in-chief. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS was about to put 
 the question again to the witness, when 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL inter- 
 posed, and put it to their lordships, 
 whether they would allow the counsel 
 to make assertions that the witness had 
 said what he had never stated. They 
 should first see whether the fact al- 
 leged in this assertion was in the mi- 
 nutes of the witness's evidence. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR.— I 
 have said that the counsel n»ay, on 
 cross-examination, put in the shape of 
 an assertion an interrogation respect-* 
 ing an answer given in the leading ex- 
 amination; but care must be taken to 
 put only what the witness has said. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS.— As I have ob. 
 tained distinctly from the witness that 
 he was examined abroad, that that ex- 
 amination was committed to writing, 
 tliat he has been examined since his 
 arrival in this country— and that, of 
 course, on the subject of his present 
 examination — I am desirous to point 
 out to your lordships that his state- 
 ment this day, representing that the 
 room of Bergami did not enter into 
 the dining-room, but into the room of 
 the Countess Oldi, must be a deviation 
 from his answers on his former exami- 
 nations, which formed the ground of 
 the Attorney-General's instructions. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said 
 it was all founded on a mistake of his, 
 for here was the paper before him (the 
 depositions of th£ witness, we pre- 
 sume), which agreed exactly with the 
 evidence now given. 
 
 Ihe LORD-CHANCELLOR said, 
 that the departure of the Attorney-Ge- 
 neral from his instructions was a mat- 
 ter of argument,'but not of evidence. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS said, he would not 
 tlien press the question. 
 
 Did the doorof Bergami's room open 
 — not open into the dining-room, but 
 — into the bed-room of his sister, th^j 
 
CROSS-^EXAMINATION OF PIETRO PUCHT. 
 
 109 
 
 Countess of Oldi? — Yes, into the bed- 
 room of his sister. 
 
 State the party that came to your 
 hotel before the Princess of Wales — 
 the uiunes uf the party ? — The order 
 came from the vice sfovernor of the 
 Corporation to prepare apartments for 
 her Royal Highness. 
 
 What were the names of the last 
 guests before the arrival of the Prin- 
 cess of Wales ? — It is not possible for 
 me to remember One I do remember 
 — a man of the name of Pellet, a mer- 
 chant and manufacturer of watches, 
 from Nenfchatel. 
 
 Who composed the party that came 
 after the Princess of Wales ? — It is im- 
 possible for me to remember : I can't 
 remember : if I were at home, there is 
 a book in which the names of all the 
 strangers are entered. 
 
 Was the Princess of "Wales there 
 during a Sunday? — I don't remember. 
 
 Yon can't remember whether she 
 was there on a Sunday, nor the day on 
 whicli she came, nor that on which she 
 went away? — I do not remember: from 
 the book every thing is known. 
 
 And that you left behind? — The 
 book is at Trieste, where the names of 
 strangers are pnt down. 
 
 -Do you remember if the Princess 
 went to the opera? — She did. 
 
 Was she ever more than once to your 
 knowledge in this grand hotel? — That 
 was the first time slie ever was. 
 
 Has she ever been more than that 
 one time in her life? — Once only. 
 
 The witness was here re-examined 
 by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL. 
 
 What has become of the servant- 
 maid Maria Mora? — I believe she is 
 gone to Jerusalem ; all I know is, that 
 she asked leave to go there last spring, 
 and I have not seen her since. 
 
 What has become of the male-ser- 
 vant ? — I do not exactly know. 
 
 Look at that gentleman (Mr. Maule), 
 and say whether you know him ? — Y^es, 
 I do. 
 
 Did ^Ir. Maule take down in writing 
 what you said when you were before 
 examined ? — He did. 
 
 Where was it that the sum of eight 
 Napoleons and eleven francs was 
 given to you ? — In a house at Bologna. 
 
 At what time was it after you had 
 left Trieste ?— I cannot remember ex- 
 actly. 
 
 Will you endeavour to recollect?—! 
 think it was on the !28th of June. 
 
 Poyou consider that you shall lose 
 
 any thing by being absent from your 
 place of residence and occupation ? — 
 Yes, a material loss. 
 
 Is the loss you apprehend greater 
 than will be compensated by the eight 
 Napoleons and eleven francs,^ which 
 you say were paid to you at Bologna? 
 —Much greater : I derived more profit 
 from my own business. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GEN eras: re- 
 marked, that he was unwilling to take 
 up their lordships' time unnecessarily ; 
 but it might be important that their 
 lordships should here refer to a pre- 
 cedinsT part of the evidence. 
 
 If the room of which yon have been 
 speaking was covered with canvass, 
 how did you see into it? — I looked iuto 
 it through a hole, in order that I might 
 know when I was wanted^, and to be 
 exact in my service. 
 
 But through what hole was it that 
 you looked into the room?— Through 
 a key-hole which looked into the din- 
 ing-)oom. 
 
 Marquis of BUCKINGHAM.— Did 
 Bergami's bed, during the time her 
 Royal Highness and he lodged at your 
 inn, appear to have been slept in every 
 night ? — Nobody coiild sleep there, for 
 the bed was too small. 
 
 Where did the Countess Oldi sleep 
 during this period? — She slept in 
 No. 3. 
 
 Did her bed appear to have been 
 slept in every night? — I believe it did. 
 
 Where did the servants and children 
 sleep ? — In various parts of the house. 
 
 Was Bergamis bed the only one 
 which appeared not to have been slept 
 in?^ — I observe ' all the beds, and it 
 was the only on" > 
 
 Are you sure that it was the only one 
 which appeared not to have been slept 
 in? — It was the only one; and I knovr 
 it, because the sheets were in the same 
 way when taken off as they were when 
 they were put on. 
 
 Was there any appearance in the 
 pot-dechamhre, or otherwise, of a per- 
 son having slept in the room ? — I can- 
 not exactly say. 
 
 The question was here repeated. 
 
 Was there any such appearance as I 
 have mentioned ? — It is possible that 
 there was such an appearance, but it 
 may have l)een caused whilst Bergarai 
 was making his toilette. 
 
 What was the condition of the bed* 
 of the other servants.? — They were in 
 the usual way. 
 
 Earl of LIVERPOOL.— Was the 
 
110 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 isey-holc fixed in (he canvass, or wa« 
 ttil> cauva'^scut ? 
 
 Mr. \V1LLL\MS objected to this 
 iorin of puttinj; the (jue^iioii. 
 
 The Ekrl of LIVERPOOL snb- 
 initted,anil said he would put his ques- 
 tion ill a different way. 
 
 The witness had said that the canvass 
 covered the whole room : did it also 
 cover the key -hole? — The canvass was 
 open some little matter, as though the 
 opening had been made with a knife. 
 
 Was it then a very small hole ? — It 
 •vras small. 
 
 Was it easy to see through it? — Yes, 
 1iery easy. 
 
 Was it made for the common pur- 
 poses of a key-hole, or a mere acciden- 
 tal rent in the canvass? — It was some- 
 ■Hhat smaller than a key-hole, about 
 half the size ; and it was necessary to 
 close it from within, and not from 
 "Without. 
 
 What do you mean by closing or 
 shutting it? Do you mean that it might 
 be locked? — Yes, it might be locked. 
 
 How long have you been a waiter in 
 ♦lie Hotel de Grand Bretagno, at 
 Trieste? — Ever since it was establish- 
 ed ; for the last nine years. 
 
 Were there a door and key-hole 
 through the canvass? — There were. 
 
 By Earl GREY. — In what manner 
 was the key-hole fixed? — It was fixed 
 during the day. 
 
 Was there a separate canvass over 
 the door, or did it cover the whole 
 loom? — It passed round the room. 
 
 Could the opening be seen by any 
 person within the room? — I do not 
 know. 
 
 By the Marquis of L4NSDOWN.— 
 "Was the secret door of which the wit- 
 ness speaks used generally, or only on 
 l^articular occasions ? — When I was 
 ©bhged to serve things at stated hours, 
 I was in the habit of looking through 
 iliis key-hole^ in order to see if the par- 
 ties were ready. 
 
 Was the witness under the necessity 
 of entering the room by any other 
 door ? — I sometimes made use of one, 
 and sometimes of another. 
 
 Did yon ever use tliatdoor whilst the 
 Princess was in the room? — I do not 
 recollect. 
 
 By the Earl of DARNLEY.— Did 
 not the witness recollect whether he 
 €Ter used that door whilst the Princess 
 vas within ? — I had no need to do so : 
 I never did so. 
 AVl«it communication was there be- 
 
 tween this room and that occupied by 
 Bcrgami? — The only couimunicatioa 
 was through the salle- a- manger. 
 
 What was the thickness of the door 
 to which you have been alluding ? — It 
 was about an inch, or about the thick- 
 ness of my thumb. 
 
 Did it open inwards or outwards ? — 
 It sometimes opened from the room, 
 and sometimes otherwise. 
 
 By the LORD-CHANCELLOR.— 
 The witness has said, in his cross-exa- 
 mination, that he must continue a wai- 
 ter if he did not gain the ktw-suit: he 
 wished to know to what suit or cause 
 the V. itness alluded r — I have given in 
 a memorial for the purpose of getting 
 an inn, by means of some protection ; 
 I do not know yet whether I shall suc- 
 ceed, or whether some one else will 
 get it. 
 
 What do you mean by the words 
 ** some protection?" — I know that 
 others wished to get the inn from me, 
 and by means of acquaintance wi>th the - 
 owner. 
 
 By the Earl of ROSEBERRY.— 
 Why did the witness, if he had suffered, 
 or was suffering a loss, express a wish 
 not to accept money trom the govern- 
 ment ? 
 
 This question gaye rise to a short 
 discussion, and was finally withdrawB.r 
 
 By the Earl of KINGSTON.— Did 
 the witness suffer any loss by coming 
 here ? — Yes ; I conceive so. 
 
 In what room did Bergarai sleep? — • 
 I do not know. 
 
 You have said that Bergarai did not 
 occupy his own bed ; what bed theji 
 did he occupy t — I do not know; but I 
 suspect. 
 
 The witness was here admonished 
 that he must not state any of his suspi- 
 cions. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL suggested 
 the propriety of withdrawing the ques- 
 tion, as he could not consider it to be 
 a fair one in any point of view. 
 
 The question was accordingly with- 
 drawn, and the answer struck out. 
 
 By Lord ELLEN BO ROUGH.— 
 When the door which was called secret 
 was opened by the witness, did he push 
 it, or draw it towards him ? — When I 
 opened the door into the salle-a-man- 
 ger^l drew it- that way. 
 
 Were the different doors painted 
 alike .? — Yes, they were ; they were 
 painted at the same time. 
 
 By a Peer, whose name we could, 
 not learn. — Was the secret door 
 
EVIDENCE OF JANE BAClSARA KRESS. 
 
 Ill 
 
 of tlie sanie lieigUt as the wall ? — Yes, 
 it was. 
 
 Was it covered with canvass ?— Yes, 
 it was. 
 
 \Vas it the usual custom for sooie 
 attendant on the Princess to order and 
 arrange the apartments ?— Yes, I be- 
 Iteve so. 
 
 Here the examination of this witness 
 was b» ought to a dose. 
 
 On the motion of Lord MELVILLE, 
 leave of absence for a few days was 
 granted to Captain Briggs. 
 
 EIGHTH AVITNESS. 
 ' (Janp. Barbaka Kress.] 
 
 TW witness next called was Jane 
 Rarbara Kress, a smart dressed young 
 woman. 
 
 A Gt rman Interprcter,namedGcorge 
 IViliiam Kolmantcr, was sworn to in- 
 t«roret. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL.— 
 Interpreter, ask the witness where 
 does she live ? — At Carlsrnhe. 
 
 Of what religion are you? — A Lu- 
 theran. 
 
 How long are you married ? — Three 
 years. 
 
 Before that time, did you live at the 
 Post-inn, at Carlsruhe ? — Yes. 
 
 How long did you live there?— One 
 year and three-quarters. 
 
 Did you leave it in consequence of 
 your marriage?— -Yes, I did. 
 
 Do yoii remember the Princess of 
 Wales coming there? — Yes, I do. 
 
 Do yon remember Bergami coming 
 there ? — Yes, I do. 
 
 About how long is that since? — Per- 
 haps about tbree years. 
 
 Do you remember in what room the 
 Princess slept while at the mn ? — Yes, 
 I do. 
 
 What was the number of the room? 
 —No. 10. 
 
 What room adjoined No. 10 ? — 
 No. 11. 
 
 How was No. 11 used ? for sleeping or 
 eating? — It was a dining-room. 
 
 What room adjoined No. 11, the 
 dining-room ? — No. 12. 
 
 What room was No. 12?— A bed- 
 room. 
 
 Who had it ? — Bergimi. 
 
 Was there a door going from No. lo 
 to No. 11 ?— There was. 
 
 Was there also a door from No. 11 
 to 'So, 12 ?— Yes, a double one. [The 
 
 witness explained that she meant fold- 
 iug doors.] 
 
 What sort of bed was placed in No* 
 12 ?— A broad bed. 
 
 Vv'as it there before? or was it placed 
 there in consequence of the arrival of 
 the Princess ? — There, was anothef 
 bed tUere before, but I was- ordered to 
 put a broad one before the Princess 
 arrived. 
 
 Had the Princess arrived before the 
 other bed was removed ?-^The courier 
 had arrived to prepare for the Princes*, 
 and then I was ordered to put this bed 
 into the room. 
 
 Was it your duty to attend the inn 
 as chambermaid? — Yes ; it was. 
 
 How long did the Princess remain at 
 the inn ? — I cannot say exactly' the 
 time; but I think ahout a week or 
 eight days. 
 
 Do you remember, on any evening 
 during the Princess's stay, to go to No. 
 1 2, and cairy some water there ? — Yes, 
 I do. 
 
 About what time in the evening?--- 
 Perhaps between 7 and a o'clock. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM here remarked, 
 that a gentleman near him, who underj^ 
 stood the German language, had very 
 properly observed, that thelntorpreter 
 did not translate the words literally; 
 for instance, that the witness said,^' I 
 can't tell" before she said '* perhaps be- 
 tween 7 and 8 o'clock.'' 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR then 
 desired the Interpreter to repeat aJ^ 
 the words used by the witness. 
 
 The witness then gave her answer. 
 — I can'i tell exactly, but to the best 
 of my memory it was between 7 and 8 
 o'clock in the eveniug. 
 
 Do you recollect where the Princes.^ 
 and Bergami had dined that day r — I 
 can't recollect. 
 
 On carrying the water to No. 12, 
 who was in tljc room? — The Pnuccss 
 and Bergami. 
 
 Where was Bergami when you went 
 in? — Bergami was in bed. 
 
 Where was the Princess ? — She was 
 sitting on the bed next him. 
 
 Could you see whether Bergami's 
 clothes were on or off? — I could not 
 see ; but the moment I entered Berga- 
 mi's arna was wide. 
 
 Where did you .see his arm ?7~When 
 I entered Bergami had his arms round 
 the neck of the Princess, and when I 
 entered he let it fall. 
 
112 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 Can yon describe his dress ? — I can- 
 not tell that. 
 
 .What did the Princess do on yonr 
 entering the roomr — The Princess had 
 jumped up, and was much frightened. 
 
 What did the Princess do when she 
 saw you enter? — She had then jumped 
 up. 
 
 Do yon mean to say that she had 
 jumped up, or that .^he did jump up on 
 your entering the room.? 
 
 The witness repeated her foi'mer an- 
 swer, the literal translation of which, 
 the Interpreter said, was *' she got up, 
 or she rose." 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said, that a gen- 
 tleman near him, and no more connected 
 with this case than any of their lord- 
 ships, had complained of the interpre- 
 tation of the answers. But when asked 
 to come and correct the Interpreter, 
 he replied he would not intermeddle 
 tn such a buisiness. 
 
 The doubt in this manner cast upon 
 the Interpreter's answers led to some 
 conversation between the counsel on 
 both sides and their lordships, respect- 
 ing the propriety of having another 
 person who understood the German 
 language present to check the Inter- 
 preter, as was the case with the Italian 
 Interpreter. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said that he 
 ■would object to any but a sworn Inter- 
 I«eter; the Attorny-General had put 
 Ikis question twice over to the Inter- 
 preter upon not getting from him the 
 answer that suited him. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL ap- 
 pealed to their lordships against the 
 insinuation which had been more than 
 once levelled against him. The learned 
 counsel said that the Interpreter had 
 given an answer which did not suit him 
 (the Attorney-General.) What did he 
 mean by the observation ? He had 
 here a duty Cast upon him by their 
 lordhhips, and he wished to conduct 
 the duty intrusted to him fairly, and 
 honourably, and jtistly. If the Inter- 
 preter should mistake any words, let 
 the mistake be explained, or let a more 
 fit person to interpret be procured "; but 
 do not suifer the learned counsel to as- 
 cribe motives to him which he had not; 
 or to say that any answer would not suit 
 him ; his only object was to get at the 
 truth. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM disclaimed any 
 intention of casting any aspersion or 
 ascribing any motive to any one*^ If 
 
 he did ascribe a motive, he should be 
 prepared, when the proper time that 
 suited him came, to justify the impu- 
 tation of that motive. But here he 
 had cast no aspersion. The whole of 
 the interruption that had taken place 
 WAS of the Attorney -General's own 
 seeking. It was, said Mr. Brougham, 
 " he, not /, who caused that interrup- 
 tion." 
 
 The ATTORNEY GENERAL.— 
 If my learned friend did not mean to 
 impute a motive to me, why have suirf, 
 the answer did not suit me r 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.— I repeat, that" 
 saying the answer did not suit yon 
 was not imputing any objectionable 
 motive. 
 
 The Marquis of BUCKINGHAM 
 here rose and said, that the prtsenceof 
 their lordships ought to restrain any 
 counsel from presuming to impute im- 
 proper motives to another counsel em- 
 ployed in the case, and ordered to 
 proceed in it by their lordships. (Hear, 
 hear.) He hoped, therefore, that the 
 learned counsel would be now in- 
 structed by their lordships not to pre- 
 sume to assert that other counsel were 
 not actuated by as pure mctivcs as he 
 was himself. (Hear.) 
 
 Earl GREY was sorry that any thing 
 had occurred which looked like «t 
 bickering among the counsel at the 
 bar, and still more that it had excited 
 the attention of their lordships. He 
 should, hoMcver, object to the instruc- 
 tion suggested by the noble marquis, 
 because he thought no such instruction 
 was necessary, and that it could not be 
 given by their lordships without im- 
 plying an imputation upgn the counsel 
 receiving it, which in this case being 
 undeserved, would be unfair. He did 
 not understand the learned counsel to 
 impute improper motives to the counsel 
 at the other side. He certainly un- 
 derstood him to say, that the answer 
 given by the witness did not suit, but 
 he did not understand the expression 
 to be intended improperly. He, how- 
 ever, hoped that the counsel at both 
 sides would, in the performance of 
 tlieir respective duties, preserve a be- 
 coming sense ol" temper, and carefully 
 abstain from any expressions which 
 were calculated to interrupt that cool- 
 ness and decorum- which he trusted it 
 was the anxious desire of all parties 
 should characterize the whole of their 
 proceedings in this case. (Hear, hear.} 
 
EVIDENCE OF BARBARA KRESS. 
 
 113 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR then 
 ordered that the sworn interpreter 
 siiould be (K-siied to repeat the answer 
 given by the witness, first in German, 
 and next in Kn^lish. 
 
 The questions were again pat to the 
 witness in the following manner: — 
 
 When yon came into the room where 
 was the Princess? — Sitting on the bed. 
 
 What (lid her Royal Highness do on 
 your going into the room? — The Prin- 
 cess was frichtened. 
 
 (Some difficulty here again ocwirred 
 respecting^ the meaning intended to be 
 conveyed by tlie witness.) 
 
 Did the Princess get up,or jnmp up, 
 in the presence of tlie witness? — AVhen 
 I entered, the l*iincess had got up. 
 
 (Reie again some objection was 
 taken to the interpretation put by the 
 Interpreter upon the answers of the 
 witness.) 
 
 The Interpreter expressed an anxious 
 desire to explain the answers as the 
 witnesses .intended to convey them. 
 The words, he said, used by the wit- 
 ness, and in which she stated that the 
 Princess was in the act of rising Mhen 
 she entered the room, were, in dtr kohe^ 
 which literally meant *'in a state of 
 being high." 
 
 The Bishop of PETERBOROUGH 
 said, he hoped their lordships would 
 excuse him for interrupting their pro- 
 ceedings, and stating, that in his 
 iOpinion the Interpreter did not give 
 the translation of the German words in 
 the English language with the faitliful 
 meaning which the idiom of both lan- 
 guages required. The German words 
 were certainly not rendered suitably 
 in the English words used by the Inter- 
 preter. His translation was not as 
 faithful as it might be. 
 
 Lord HOLLAND said that, under 
 the circumstances in which they were 
 placed, they ought to have a swOrn In- 
 terpreter, to interpret the words of a 
 witness with the utmost precision. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR de- 
 sired that the counsel at tlie opposite 
 side should furnish a German Inter- 
 preter, to check the other Interpreter, 
 as in the case of the Italian one who 
 had recently acted. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said, that he 
 must object to the sense of any words 
 of a witness being taken through the 
 medium of any other person than a 
 sworn Interpreter. He was not at this 
 moment prepared with such a person ; 
 he hoped; therefore, their lordships 
 16 
 
 would delay the examination of this 
 witness until he should procure a suit- 
 able Interpreter to correct and check 
 the person provided by the counsel at 
 the opposite side. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said 
 that he had another interpreter ready, 
 if their lordships did not deem the pre- 
 sent person competent. 
 
 Mr. BROITGHAM said that he ^as 
 not ready with one to check this new 
 Interpreter, and he hoped that, until 
 he was prepared, their lordships would 
 not proceed with the examination of 
 this witness. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, 
 that if a sworn Interpieter, when pro- 
 tluced, did not give proper satisfaction 
 in the discharge of his duty, the oppo- 
 site party ought to be called upon, or 
 at least such, he thought, was the course 
 ui" proceeding, to furnish another. He 
 still thought that the production of a 
 new Interpreter must be grounded on 
 some objection taken to the preceding 
 one. No man was more competent 
 than the right reverend Prelate to 
 judge of the fitness of the Interpreter 
 to perform his duty ; and he thought 
 that, Without going further, enough 
 had occurred to justify their lordships 
 in calling upon tjie opposite counsel 
 for another Interpreter. 
 
 Lord GRENVILLE observed, that 
 a word may have two meanings, and 
 in such a case it was desirable tliat the 
 Interpreter should state both, to enable 
 their lordships to ascertain from a wit- 
 ness which of the two he meant to de- 
 liver. If the Interpreter had, how- 
 ever, made a mistake in translating 
 words which any noble lord was of 
 opinion had but one meaning, then he 
 thought that the person discovering 
 the error was right, was indeed bound 
 to apprize their lordships of the cir- 
 cumstance. He felt therefore obliged 
 to the right reverend Prelate for cau- 
 tioning them against the error into 
 which they might be led by the present 
 Interpreter. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR called 
 upon the counsel for the Queen to pro- 
 duce another Interpreter. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said it was no 
 fault of his that he was not prepared 
 at the moment with a German Inter- 
 preter : he had this day expected none 
 but Italian M'itnesses, and had accord- 
 ingly prepared himself with only an 
 Italian Interpreter. The difficulty in 
 which he was now placed, and wlucti 
 
IM 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEV. 
 
 had caused an interruption in their 
 lordships' proceedings, was the conse- 
 quence of the decision of their lord- 
 ships, the wisdom of whicli he did not 
 now presume to question, by which he 
 was refused a list not only of the names, 
 but even of the places to which the 
 charges applied. It was the ignorance 
 in which he was thus kept that left him 
 unprepared with a German Interpreter 
 at this moment. The first witnesses 
 were Italian, the next was a German, 
 and perhaps after that witness was 
 done with, he (Mr. Brougham) would, 
 on the spur of the moment, be called 
 upon for a Tunisian, a Turkish, a 
 Greek, or an Egyptian Interpreter; 
 for in all these countries the Queen 
 had been : she was at Tunis, Athens, 
 Egypt, and the Holy Land, and from 
 all these places he was, he presum<ed, 
 to conjecture that Interpreters would 
 be required. This was the difficulty 
 imposed upon her Majesty's counsel 
 by the refusal of their lordships to fur- 
 nish a list of tile places to which the 
 charges referred. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL re- 
 plied, that his learned friend could 
 not, with justice, complain of being 
 taken unaware* respecting the neces- 
 sity of a German Interpreter, for he 
 had, in his openiag speech, distinctly 
 alluded to a circumstance occurring at 
 Carlsruhe. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM hoped his learned 
 friend would save the trouble of any 
 . future mistake by stating to what 
 country his next witness belonged. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL made 
 no reply. 
 
 The *Earl of MORLEY said that the 
 better way at present would be to call 
 on the Interpreter for a further ex- 
 filanation of the words used by the 
 witness, and repeat the German, to 
 have it heard by such of their lordships 
 as understood that language. 
 
 The Duke of HAMILTON said, 
 that as the counsel for her Maje.*:ty 
 •were unprepared at this moment' with 
 a "German Interpreter, and as no blame 
 . whatever attached to them, under the 
 circumstances, for not being provided 
 with such a person, he thought their 
 lordships had better postpone the fur- 
 ther examination until to-ihorrow. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, he 
 saw no objection to a reasonable delay, 
 if required by the counsel. 
 
 Earl GREY concurred with his noble 
 friend (Lord Grenville) that it was 
 
 quite impossible for any noble lord to 
 hear a mistake committed by the In- 
 terpreter without at once interposifii? 
 to set the matter right. But then he 
 trusted their lordships would feel the 
 extreme inconvenience of this sort of 
 interlocutory discussion among them- 
 selves; and he humbly suggested, tliat 
 whenever in future any noble lord 
 thought the translation of the Inter- 
 preter imperfect, he should, by a ques- 
 tion of his own at the instant, endea- 
 vour to have the answer accui-ately 
 conveyed. 
 
 After a few words from counsel at 
 both sides, it was agreed that no other 
 witness sliould at that hour of the day 
 (four o'clock) be called. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR put 
 it to their lordships whether to-morrow, 
 being Saturday, they would sit after 
 four o'clock ? (Intermingled cries of 
 " until five o'clock.") 
 
 It was, however, eventually deter- 
 mined that they should not sit to-mor- 
 row after four o'clock. 
 
 The Queen entered the house, and 
 took her seat, during the examination 
 of the last witness. 
 
 SATURDAY, August 26. 
 
 After counsel entered, BARBARA 
 KRESS was brought to the bar, and 
 her Cixamination resumed. 
 
 A second Interpreter being sworn, 
 the two last questions and answers of 
 the preceding day were read. 
 
 "What happened after you saw the. 
 Princess sitting on Bergami's bed ? 
 
 The Interpreter.— The witness 
 wishes to know whether you mean the 
 same evening? — I have seen her on 
 the bed ; and then withdrew. 
 
 Before you withdrew, did the Prin- 
 cess continue sitting on the bed, or 
 what else happeat d ? — She saw the 
 Princess jump up, and then withdrew. 
 She was frightened. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR.— 
 When she says I do, you should not 
 say she. 
 
 Then I understand you to say that 
 you then withdrew ? — Yes. 
 
 Did you make up the bed in No. 12, 
 Bergami's room? — ^Yes. 
 
 Did you at any time, when making 
 up the bed, discover any thing on it ? 
 —On the bed? 
 
 On it, or in it ? — In the bed I found 
 a cloak. 
 
 Was it the cloak apparently belong- 
 
EVIDENCE OF BARB-ARA KRESS. 
 
 115 
 
 lu^ to a female ? — It was ; because it 
 had a kind of capuce or hood. 
 
 What did you do with that cloak r 
 —As I took it out I placed it asunder 
 (afterwards explained to mean un- 
 folded.) 
 
 AVhat time of the d.iy did you find 
 this cloak.? — It was in the morning 
 when I made the bed. 
 
 Describe more particularly the 
 cloak, what it was made ol ? — It was 
 of siliv, the colour gray. 
 
 Did you afterwards see any one 
 wen ing that cloak ? — The servant had 
 taken it out of my hand. 
 
 Did you sec any person wear the 
 cloak afterwards ? — I have seen a cloak 
 on the Princess next day_, but I cannot 
 swear to it. 
 
 Was it a cloak of a similar descrip- 
 tion to that you saw the Princess wear? 
 ■ — Yes, it was of the same colour. 
 
 She says it was of the same co'our; 
 does she know that it was silk? — It 
 was silk. 
 
 Had the cloak you saw on the Prin- 
 cess a capucn or hood ? — Yes, it had 
 such a hood. 
 
 At any time in making up the bed, 
 did you observe any thing else on the 
 sheets, or on any part of the bed? 
 
 The Interpreter. — It is a word 
 spoken by the witness, which cannot 
 bft expressed in English. 
 
 State what she said?— Once when I 
 made the bed I saw the sheets TVust, 
 
 The Interpreter. — This word means, 
 in disorder. 
 
 What do vou mean by the word 
 
 The Interpreter. — She is rather at a 
 loss toexplaui it. 
 
 The Queen's Interpreter. — She says 
 " stains." 
 
 What sort of stains were they? — As 
 much as I have seen, they were white. 
 
 Are you not a married woman ?-— 
 Yes. 
 
 [Here the witness appeared to be 
 Kiuch nffectecl, and shed tears. A 
 glass of water was ordered for her.] 
 
 VVhat did those stains appear to be ? 
 — I have not inspected them so nearly, 
 but I have seen they were white. 
 
 Have you ever made tlie beds of 
 married persons? — Yes; ^11 the beds 
 in the house generally. 
 
 VV^hat was the appearance of the 
 spots^or stajns gn the bed? — You will 
 pardon ine, I have not reflected on 
 this; I hayc had uo thoughts on it. 
 
 Were they dry or wet?— VVet. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHA^I said he wi«bed 
 to put a few questions to the witness, 
 although it was his intention at a fu- 
 ture period to enter more fully into 
 the examination, after he had been 
 enabled to make inquiries as to wit- 
 nesses of whom he had no previous m^ 
 formation. When his lordship had 
 yesterday adverted to an irregularity, 
 he presumed his lordship to mean, that 
 it consisted in the calling for the re- 
 production of one witness, whilst the 
 examination of the other was going on. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR re- 
 commended to delay the cross-exami- 
 nation altogether, until counsel were 
 prepared with the information they re- 
 (juired 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.— We have un- 
 derstood that after your lordships had 
 bien pleased to refuse a list of wit- 
 nesses, or a return of the places where 
 the offences were alleged to be com- 
 mitted, that the liberty was allowed to 
 us as well to examine immediately 
 after, their examinatien-in-chief, the 
 same witnesses again, in any part of 
 the proceedings. We may be in error, 
 but this was our decided impression. 
 Indeed, my lords, 1 can say that this 
 understanding has been confirmed by 
 what has passed between ourselvfes, 
 vvIk) are considered to patronise this 
 measure. 
 
 Mr. DEN MAN Begged to call theif 
 lordships' attention to a special case, 
 viz. the examination of the witness 
 Majochi. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR said, 
 nothing could, be more irregular than 
 the cross-examination of the same wit- 
 ness a second time. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM. — Most cer- 
 tainly, as a general rule, nothing would 
 be more irregular than a cross-exami- 
 nation of a witness a second time. But, 
 my lord, you will consider, that what 
 has been denied to our application has 
 placed us in a most peculiar situation. 
 We can know nothing of those wit- 
 nesses until they are brought to this 
 bar. We have no intimation of their 
 previous life or residence ; and, there- 
 fore, out of this peculiarity may well 
 arise another peculiarity, uni quo con- 
 ti'siter, that unless we are allowed to 
 cross-examine now, and in subsequent 
 stages, we are, in fact, deprived of the 
 benefit of a croes-examination at all. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR said, 
 there could, be no objection to the ex- 
 amination of the witness, Tis to'iesW 
 
116 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 dence and other circumstances per- 
 sonal to the witness. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said, that he 
 should only direct his question to what 
 regarded time and place, leaving co- 
 lour and form to another period. He 
 should also wish to ask a few questions 
 of the witness, as to the desciiption of 
 lierself ; bnt he trusted their lordships, 
 if in putting these questions he should 
 be fed into any more general examina- 
 tion, would not rashly conclude (he 
 begged pardon, they could do nothing 
 rashly) that he was violating the un- 
 derstanding. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE said a few words, 
 which were inaudible. 
 
 CROSS-EXAMINATION. 
 
 Cross-examined by Mr. BROUGH- 
 AM. — How long were you chamber- 
 maid at the inn i — One year and three- 
 quarters. 
 
 , V/ere you raarri^jd at that time? — 
 ^o, I was not. 
 
 Were you married after you left the 
 inn ? — -Yes. 
 
 What were you before you were 
 chamber- maid at the inn?— I had serv- 
 ed before. 
 
 Where had you been in service? — 
 Easter-frieden. It is a little village. 
 
 In what place were you in service 
 before you were at the inn? — I was 
 Just before at my father's. 
 
 Were you as servant in any family 
 before that ? — Yes. 
 
 In what capacity, and where? — In 
 sbveral families. 
 
 Name one ? — Mervey. 
 
 What is Mervey ? — He is landlord of 
 an inn. 
 
 How long were you chamber-maid 
 in that house ? — Six months. 
 
 Where did Mervey live?— At Berg- 
 harten. 
 
 Where were you before servant ? — 
 At the court of the Grand Duke of 
 Baden. 
 
 How long were you there? — Six 
 years. 
 
 How old are you?— Just twenty- 
 five. 
 
 Had you ever been in any occupa- 
 tion but that of servant?— I was going 
 to say, that I had been half a year in 
 another situation. 
 
 At what place was that?— At Carls- 
 rulie. 
 
 What was the name of the family at 
 Carlsr uhe ?-^Schemble. 
 
 What business was the person you 
 lived with ? —A landlord of an inn. 
 
 What was your employment in the 
 inn ? — Keller-maid. 
 
 What is the office of keller maid? — 
 To cleanse the public room. 
 
 Had you any other enjployment in 
 that inn? — No. 
 
 Is the waiter in an inn also, called 
 kelltr-man? — Keller-man. 
 
 Is it the business of the keller-mald. 
 to attend upon the keller-man ? — She 
 does nothing but cleanse the rooms. 
 
 How long have you been here? — 
 Two days and three weeks. 
 
 With whom did you come here?^ — 
 With a courier. 
 
 What was the name of that courier? 
 — Riessncr. 
 
 Did any body else rome here with 
 you but theconiier? — My brother djd ; 
 1 did not like to come alone. 
 
 What is your brother's name?— Fre- 
 derick Klein beck. 
 
 What age is he? — About twenty- 
 eight. I cannot tell with certainty. 
 
 V^ ho paid your expenses on coming 
 over here? — I do not know; the cou- 
 rier paid them. 
 
 Who asked you to come over here? 
 — Our Minister; bis name is Balstead. 
 
 • Did any other Minister ask you to 
 come? — Monsieur de Galin. 
 
 [We could not ascertain that this is 
 exactly the name.] 
 
 Who is Monsieur de Gaivne ? — He 
 is a person at our court, but I do not 
 know his office. 
 
 Did any othier person speak to you 
 about coming here ? — The Ambassador 
 at Wirtemburgh. 
 
 Did any other person speak to you 
 about coming here? — Monsieur di 
 Rhaden. 
 
 What is he ^-The Minister of Han- 
 over. 
 
 Does he live at Carlsruhe?— Yes. 
 
 Where at Carlsruhe does he live ? — 
 At a Jew's house. 
 
 Did he live any where else but at 
 this Jew's house r — I cannot say. 
 
 Did he often come to the inn where 
 you were ? — 1 never saw him at the 
 inn. 
 
 Did he examine you .'' — Monsieur de 
 Grim examined me. 
 
 Who is INIoiisieur de Grim ? — 
 
 [Witness said the Ambassador of 
 some German State, but we could not 
 catch the name.] 
 
 Did you ever leave Carlsruhe before 
 on this subject ? — Yes, 
 
CROSS-EXAMINATION OF BARBARA KRESS. 
 
 117 
 
 Were yoH ever at Vienna r — No. 
 Did vou ever see Colonel Brown? — 
 Ko. 
 
 Or Mr. Decring? — Yes, at Hanover. 
 AVhen did yon go to Kanover? — On 
 leaving the Post inn I was called to go 
 to Hanover. 
 
 AVho called you to go to Hanover? — 
 Di Khaden. 
 
 How lontj were you at Hanover on 
 that occasion? — Six or seven days. 
 
 Were you examined at Hanover on 
 tins subject? — They asked me it" I had 
 seen certain things, and I said I had 
 seen snch and such ihinjjs. 
 
 Did you go back to Carlsruhe from 
 Hanover ? — Yes. 
 
 What did you get for going to Hano- 
 ver? — I received a small sum in pay- 
 ment for the time I had lost. 
 
 How much was that sum ? — A little, 
 very little. 
 
 It will be the easier for you to 
 remember how much it was ? — ^About 16 
 or 18 ducats — each ducat is five florins. 
 What wages had you at the inn? — 
 Twelve florins a-year; but that was 
 because I was supposed to have per- 
 quisites or benefits. 
 
 Did anybody else give you anything? 
 No, I got nothing else. 
 
 I don't ask if you got nothing else 
 then, but have you got any thing since ? 
 ,— I have been fetched to Frankfort. 
 
 Who fetched you to Frankfort? — A 
 valet -de-chambre. (^Xc could not col- 
 lect whose valet-dechanthre.) 
 
 What were you asked when you 
 were fetched to Frankfort? — What I 
 had seen. 
 
 And what did yon say yon had seen? 
 
 —The same thing Uiat I have, said here. 
 
 What money was given to you for 
 
 going that journey to Frankfort? — 
 
 Twelve or l4 ducats. 
 
 Have you received any thing else 
 since ? — No, except from the gentle- 
 man who fetched me liere. 
 
 Do you mean here the courier? — I 
 don't know what a courier is. 
 
 How often d)d you go by the post ? 
 — Twice. 
 
 What were you told then?— That I 
 fthould go to London ; and I said I 
 'would not, unU ss forced to do so. 
 
 What was then said to you ? — That I 
 had better go willingly, or I should be 
 ojiliged to go. 
 
 Did you get any thing? — A ducat 
 each time — only the second time. 
 
 Were you promised any thing ? — 
 Nothing at all. 
 
 Here Lord LAUDERDALE moved 
 that counsel be ordered to withdraw. 
 
 After counsel had withdrawn, Lord 
 LAUDERDALE rose, and stated that 
 he understood the object of the counsel, 
 in going into the present cross-exami- 
 nation, was to supply the information 
 which they should have had, if a list of 
 witnesses and a specification of places 
 had been previously granted by the 
 House. He wished to know if he was 
 correct in his construction of the rule 
 which had been laid down, or not. If 
 he was, it must be evident to their 
 lordships that counsel were not con- 
 ducting this cross-examination agree- 
 ably to that rule. Instead of merely 
 obtaining such information as was 
 necessary to ascertain the character of 
 the witness, by knowing the place 
 she lived in, the persons she lived 
 with, &c. &c., counsel was entering ^t 
 once into an examination which affected 
 the credibility of the testimony which 
 the witness had given. If their lord- 
 ships allowed this course to be fol* 
 lowed, it would be sanctioning a dou- 
 ble cross-examination of the witness, 
 and be attended with the most serious 
 evils to the illustrious parties con- 
 cerned. U would, for instance, allow 
 the counsel, who was prosecuting in this 
 case, advantages in summing up which 
 he ought not to have. He, therefore, 
 thought the House ought to decide on 
 this question, so as to let it be known 
 distinctly how counsel were to act. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR cer- 
 tainly thought that the learned coun- 
 sel had gone far beyond the limits 
 which were allowed in this cross-exa- 
 mination. If it were persisted in, he 
 would say, that it would not only be 
 irregular but dangerous in the ex- 
 treme, as the noble lord had said tlie 
 counsel on the other side might take 
 advantage of it in his summing up, 
 and also in choosing what witnesses he 
 wonld henceforth briti:: np. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM begged to say, 
 that when an objection was made at 
 the bar he could meet it, Ijut in this 
 case he found it difficult what to do. 
 
 THE LORD - CHANCELLOR 
 thought it would be tlie best way for 
 the House to confide ti the honour of 
 the counsel on both sid-j.-, and for the 
 counsel to confide in the honour of the 
 House. 
 
 Lord SID MOUTH objected to the 
 line which counsel was pursuing. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM,— As he had hli 
 
IIS 
 
 TniAl OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 clioice of a general cross-examination 
 at a subsequent period, would cer- 
 tainly choose that in preference to one 
 at present ; but the question he had 
 put was within the prescribed bounds, 
 for it went to prove the identity of 
 Ibis witness. He hoped he would be 
 allowed to asii. the witness where she 
 is now ? 
 
 Th« Duke of HAMILTON said a 
 few words expressive of his opinion, 
 that if his wishes and those of many 
 other noble lords had been acceded 
 to, and a list of witnesses, and a speci- 
 fication of places gra.nted to her Ma- 
 jesty's counsel, all the difficulties and 
 trouble tiiat now attended the pro- 
 Ceedines would have b^en avoided. 
 
 Lord LIVERPOOL tliought the 
 whole question before the House was, 
 whether tlie witness should be cross- 
 examined now or hereafter — ^io a cer- 
 tain extent, in Ins opinion, it should be 
 allowed at present. His wish was 
 that the evidence produced might be 
 sifted to the bottom — there appeared 
 to him no way to act, but to impress 
 on counsel and on the House, that jus- 
 tice^ was the object of this investiga- 
 tion. 
 
 Lord DONOUGHMORE spoke at 
 some length and with great warmth. 
 The House ought so have stopped the 
 manner in which the proceedings Avere 
 conducted before, and at all events 
 ought to stop it now. On former days 
 the House had fallen into great error. 
 His lordship then alluded to the pub- 
 lic press, which he said, had been al- 
 lowed to do great injury, great injus- 
 tice, by the facilities of the House. 
 
 After some frirther objections, the 
 LORD CHANCELLOR put the ques- 
 tion from the woolsack, that the ques- 
 tion proposed by counsel should not 
 be put, which was carried. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM was about to 
 submit some remarks, when 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR said 
 that he should first put another ques- 
 tion, which, if objected to, he might 
 argue in support of, but he could not 
 be permitted to observe on the pro- 
 ceedings of the House, which disposed 
 the former question. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM then asked wit- 
 ness where she resided at present? to 
 which she replied at CarlSruhe. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM then asked where 
 she resided in England .? 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL ob- 
 jected to tUis question. If their lord- 
 
 ships postponed to a futuro period tfie 
 examiiuition of the witness, it would 
 be quite impossible for the counsel for 
 the prosecution to sum up. Their 
 lordships would not forget that justice 
 was due to both parties 3 they would 
 not place, by a rule of this nature, one 
 of the parties in a situation in which he 
 would venture to say, that in no case 
 that ever before had occurred had a 
 party been placed. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM should confine 
 himself to the question before the 
 House, and that was, whether the ques- 
 tion he had proposed to the witness 
 should or should not be put. He asked 
 tlie witness, Where she now lived? 
 And the Attorney-General, said Mr. 
 Broughajn, objects to my putting this 
 question ; and the ground of his objec- 
 tion is tljis : he contends, not that I 
 have not a right to put the question, 
 but that I ought to put many more 
 questions — namely, that I should now 
 go through with the w hole of the cross- 
 examination. I am not now going to 
 argue this question, I have been put 
 to my election on this point by your 
 lordships, and I have elected that I 
 would not examine now, except in the 
 very narrow limits to which I am conr 
 fined (:ind of which I do not com- 
 plain,) by your lordships' prescription. 
 Your lordships have laid down the 
 rule, and I am not, I apprehend, called 
 upon to answer any oi>jections that 
 may be made against it ; and it VAOuld 
 be assuming on my part that your lord- 
 ships were in error, did I reply to the 
 argumoits on the part of the prosecu- 
 tion; tor the Aitorney-General has 
 now, at length, stated, that he appear* 
 here on the part ef the prosecution. 
 I cannot anticipate that your lordships 
 sliould change the rule that you have 
 just laid down; and the only question 
 therefore is, whether I am at liberty 
 or not to ask the question. I conceive 
 that it comes perfectly within those 
 prescribed limits ; but if your lordships 
 think otherwise, I, of course, shall be 
 bound by your decision. I confess 
 that I may transgress those limits that 
 your lordships have chalked out for 
 me, and of which you are the only 
 competent judgps. I wish to ask the 
 witness where she now lives in Eng- 
 land ? 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR felt 
 -that this was a question of considera*- 
 ble difficulty ; and if he might be per- 
 mitted to refer to a case, be viqM 
 
EXTENT OF CROSS-EXAMINATTON. 
 
 119 
 
 say, that upon rejection he had boen 
 induced materially to alter his opir»ioii 
 on this subject. If the House had 
 adopted a right view of the subject, 
 in God's name let them abide by it; 
 but if not, let them not be prevented, 
 bv any trivial considerations, from 
 letracingtheir steps and rectifying their 
 error. If the cross-e^amination ouj^ht 
 to be permitted to the extent to which 
 they had conlined it, they would recol- 
 lect that the re-examination could not 
 take place, nor could they put a single 
 question to the witness. 
 
 Lord GRENVILLE.— It appeared 
 to him, that before they proccded 
 further in tlie business, it was of ex- 
 treme importance, that in this condi- 
 tion of it, the present question should, 
 be once Tor all determined. When 
 witnesses M'ere first cross-examined as 
 to particular points, with a view that 
 they should afterwards be more fully 
 cross-examined, some strict and in- 
 .flexible line should be laid down, beyond 
 '^hich they oHijht not be permitted to 
 : pass. To adhere to that line would be 
 their duty, and he was convinced that 
 they would not fail to discharge it. But 
 with regard to the propriety of permit- 
 tin;? such a course of cross-examina 
 tion, it was natural that coimsel should 
 • 1)6 heard, and that their lordships, after 
 .having diify weighed the subject, 
 should invariably adhere to that course 
 ^ which justice rerpired them to adopt. 
 ' Great as the difficuUies were of taking 
 . particular cross-cxaminations,and ably 
 and justly enumerated as they had been, 
 yet even that enumeiation did not 
 embrace all the difficulty, nor com- 
 prise the various mischiefs to which 
 fiuch a course was necessarily liable. 
 He could not help thinking, that this 
 Was a question which called for deep 
 and serious . consideration ; wheUier 
 that consideration was had by an ad- 
 journment, or some other mode, mat- 
 tered little. They would otherwise 
 find, that every day, nay, every hour, 
 would increase those difficulties, until, 
 at last, their error would be irremedi- 
 able. If the course which they had 
 hitherto laid down were inconvenient 
 and unjnst, they would correct that 
 inconvenience; and their lordships 
 were too wise and too just not to re- 
 trSice, if, indeed, it were necessary to 
 retrace, their steps. 
 
 Lord REDESDAJuE thought that 
 the House shonld come to no resolu- 
 tiu» on this subject, that might be 
 
 hereafter of general application, and 
 become the law and usage of Parlia- 
 ment. VV heuever they departed from 
 the ordinary practice upon special 
 ca.«es, it was not customary to sutfer 
 such exception to remain on the jour- 
 nals, as applicable to any other case. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE said,' that the noble 
 lord had spoken of the usages of Par- 
 liament, witliout considering that the 
 whole proceedings then before the 
 House was foreign to the usage ef Par- 
 liament. Had the list of witnesses 
 been furnished, the difficulty would 
 have thus beenobviatedi But a person 
 called to answer for crimes alleged to 
 have been committed beyond the seas, 
 — a person not resident for any consi- 
 derable period in any particular place, 
 , with a band of witnesses collected from 
 all parts of the world, — to meet these 
 charges must find it difl[icult, not to say 
 impossible to furnish that kind of evi- 
 dence that might set aside altogether 
 the credit of such witnesses. And 
 therefore it was only equitable that the 
 learned counsel should, in the absence 
 of that information, be permitted to 
 collect those facts which were hitherto 
 concealed from him, much as he depre- 
 cated the mode of examination to 
 which he was for that purpose com- 
 pelled to resort. Besides, in the pre- 
 sent case, the whole of the evidence 
 was permitted to be published, and 
 until the minds of men were made of 
 very different materials from their pre- 
 sent constitution it was impossible that 
 such publication would not make an 
 impretision ; that however might have 
 been greatly obviated by the know- 
 ledge that must have been furnished 
 by a list of witnesses, since the cross'cx-r 
 aniination might thus have commenced 
 immediately after the direct testi- 
 mony. 
 
 Lord LIVERPOOL said, that the 
 noble baron opposite (LordGrenville) 
 had suggested the propriety of taking 
 some time to consider the subject of 
 permitting the further cross-examina- 
 tion of witnesses, and to such an ad- 
 journment he could have uo possible 
 objection. He was desirous, however, 
 in the first instance, of saying a few 
 words, as to what were the state of the 
 proceedings ; and with respect to the 
 difficultie3and inconveniences to which 
 they were tluis necessarily subjected, 
 they appeared to him to arise out of 
 the nature and constitution of the court 
 itself. — The noble *ud learned lord oj)* 
 
120 
 
 TEIAL OF THE QUEEN, 
 
 posite (Lftrd Erskine) had observed, 
 that the incoHveHience would have 
 been obviated by furnishing the coun- 
 sel for the defence with a list of wit- 
 tieiises; it might have been diminished, 
 but it would not liave been obviated : 
 and it was shown, when the noble and 
 learned lord brought forward his mo- 
 tion en the subject, that it was con- 
 trary to the usages of Parliament, and 
 also to every principle of substantial 
 justice. But their lordships would re- 
 collect that they possessed an unlimited 
 power, not only of examining wit- 
 nesses as counsel, but of cross-examin- 
 ing and re-examining them, and that 
 privilege they had been in the constant 
 habit of exercising. In short, they 
 united with themselves all the func- 
 tions that belong in the courts below, 
 to counsel on both sides ahd to the 
 court. But that was not all ; they had 
 a power of calling back a witness even 
 after liis examination was closed. 
 The difficulty, in the present instance, 
 had grown out of the nature of the 
 court. — Had the alleged crime been 
 committed in England, a great part of 
 the difficulty would have been re- 
 moved. It would have required but 
 the delay of a few days to procure the 
 necessary evidence on the part of the 
 defence. But if, in the present case, 
 the counsel asked for such short delay 
 as to the House appeared reasonable, 
 to inquire into the character of the 
 witnesses, the bouse would not refuse 
 them. Of course a much greater delay 
 would be necessary to prepare the de- 
 fence in the present ease, than if the 
 alleged crime had occurred in this 
 country. 
 
 Lord GRENVILLE recommended 
 the necessity of enforcing some strict 
 and definite rule, either by resolution 
 or otherwise, leaving it open to the 
 respective counsel te argue either in 
 favour or against the rule. He should 
 inave, for that purpose, that the House 
 adjourn. 
 
 The Marquis of LANSDOWN said, 
 he concurred iu^ all that had fallen 
 from his noble friend, as to the neces- 
 sity of deciding on some definite course 
 of proceeding. It. was of the highest 
 importance, as well to the interests of 
 the cause itself, as to any other ana- 
 logous causes which may be regulated 
 by such a precedent. Wliatever may 
 be the decii*ion, it was of the first ne- 
 cessity that when once laid down it 
 should never be departed from. There 
 
 were two modes open to their lord- 
 ships* choice, either to adopt a resolu- 
 tion on which counsel might be al- 
 lowed to argue, or without adopting 
 any resolution, leave it open to the 
 suggestions of the counsel to press their 
 respective views on the consideratiou 
 of their lordships. The latter course 
 he preferred ; but what he more par- 
 ticularly rose to impre<:s upon that 
 House was, that it should not adjourn 
 that day before it communicated its 
 orders to the counsel. Without such 
 a communication it was impossible for 
 them to know the line of proceeding 
 they ought to adopt. 
 
 Lord GRENVILLE concurred in 
 the proposition of his noble friend ; 
 but thought that the more proper mode 
 was to propose, that as the rule was 
 that the cross-examination of witnesses 
 should follow iniJDediately the direct 
 examination, it should be open to the 
 counsel against the Bill to argue in 
 favour of a departure from it in the 
 present instance, and that the counsel 
 for the Bill should then be heard in 
 objection. 
 
 Lord ELLENBOROIJGH felt that 
 as it was the duty of counsel to be pre- 
 pared at all times, the argument should 
 at once proceed. 
 
 A resolution to the effisct suggested 
 by Lord GRENVILLE, was then put 
 and carried. 
 
 The counsel were then called in, 
 and a communication of the resolution 
 of the Hou?e was made to them by the 
 Lord CHANCELLOR. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said, the vety 
 great embarrassments under \vhich he 
 was then called to address them, by 
 the resolution just read, could not be 
 unfelt by their lordships. That reso- 
 lution called upon him to state, thus 
 suddenly, his objection to a rule which, 
 in its application in the present in- 
 stance, must essentially affect the in- 
 terests of the particular cause in which 
 he was engaged,- as well as the great 
 ends of public justice. He knew he 
 was bound by his professional duty to 
 be ready at all times to state those, 
 suggestions, which he may deem con- 
 ducive to the interests of his client for 
 the time being. Those interests he 
 w^as bound specially to protect — ^thc 
 interests and ends of public justice, it 
 Avas their lordships' more imniediatfe 
 duty to secure; and these ends he con- 
 tended were best attained by allow- 
 ing each party to uphold its owu in* 
 
EXTENT OF CROSS-EXAMINATION. 
 
 Ifl 
 
 Merest in the way rendered most advi- 
 sable by their respective counsel, 
 thoii£;h in any ordinary case where he 
 could shape his progress by rules and 
 principles, supplied either by prece- 
 dent or analogy, he should not have 
 complained of being thus summarily 
 called upon to state his views; yet, 
 with the greatest confidence in their 
 lordships' justice, he must be allowed 
 to consider it extremely hard to be 
 then called upon to point out a gene- 
 ral mode of proceeding, where he had 
 neither precedent nor analogy — where 
 every tiling was wholly new in princi- 
 ple and in detail. Besides, it would be 
 recollected, that though he stood at 
 that bar as the leader, and with the 
 whole responsibility of that trust upon 
 his shoulders — a responsibility from 
 which he could appeal to^ their lord- 
 ships to say that he had never shrunk ; 
 yet he was not prepared to meet the 
 cell that was made upon him by stating 
 the result of the opinion of his five 
 other colleagues, without having been 
 allowed even a minute to ascertain 
 what their great and acknowledged 
 talents might suggest on a subject as 
 delicate as it was difficult. It was 
 impossible for him, deprived of their 
 CO operation, to say, whether he ought 
 to make any suggestion to their lord- 
 s!i[ps ; whether lie ought not to leave 
 the question to their lordships' sole 
 disposal; whether, after the refusal of 
 the list of witnesses and of the specifi- 
 cation of the places where the pre 
 sumed facts were alleged to be com 
 mitted, he ought to take upon himself 
 the responsibility of pointing out a new 
 course after that refusal; leading as 
 it did to considerable mischief— a mis- 
 chief which has tainted the whole pro- 
 ceeding and made every step taken 
 only an increase of their difficulties. — 
 Whether the course most advisable to 
 take, would be for your lordships to 
 retrace your own steps to prevent the 
 mischief so far, as, if persevered in, it 
 would affect future proceedings, for of 
 the past there can be' no remedy. — 
 These are views of the question, which 
 no man can be expected in a moment 
 to consider and decide on. We are 
 feeling in their fullest force all those 
 mischiefs which were originally fore- 
 seen. The difficulties now acknow- 
 ledged, have flowed from those very 
 measures which this Wouse had 
 adopted. 
 Lord LIVERPOOL rose and ob- 
 16 
 
 served, that if the learned counsel was 
 not prepared then to argue the ques- 
 tion then, he might ask for delay. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said, he wa« 
 merely running over the difficulties in 
 order to shew that it was impossible 
 for any man to state ^thus summarily 
 the course that ought to be pursued. 
 
 The House then adjourned, and the 
 argument stood over till Monday. 
 
 MONDAY, August 28th. 
 
 The whole of this day was occupied 
 in discussion on the part of the peers, 
 as to the latitude which the counsel for 
 the Queen were to be allowed in their 
 cross-examination of the witnesses in 
 support of the bill before the house. 
 
 It was finally agreed, on the motion 
 of Lord LIVERPOOL, with a view to 
 hearing counsel on the subject, that a 
 resolution should be adopted on which 
 to afford them an opportunity of offer-' 
 ing their sentiments to the House. 
 
 In pursuance of this suggestion, the 
 Lord Chancellor proposed that the 
 counsel should be called in, and that the 
 following resolution should be com- 
 municated to them : " That the House 
 having taken into consideration what 
 had been commnnicat-ed to them res- 
 pecting the cross-examination of wit- 
 nesses on Saturday, the House dis- 
 charged the oi;/:ler, and proposed, that 
 in future, the cross-examination should 
 be conducted in the usual way, imme- 
 diately after the examination in chief, 
 with full claims, on the part of her 
 Majesty's counsel, of calling back the 
 witnesses, if facts or circumstances not 
 known before should require it." And 
 I am desired by the House to inform 
 you, that if you have any arguments to 
 offer against this rule, they are ready 
 to hear you. 
 
 Tlie House having agreed to this 
 resolution, counsel were called in, and 
 the Lord Chancellor communicated to 
 them the determination to which the 
 House had come. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM and Mr. DEN- 
 MAN were heard at great length 
 against the limitation which this rule 
 was calculated to impose upon them' 
 in the course of the important duty 
 which they had to perform. They 
 contended for their right to examine 
 and rt-oss-examine the witnesses botU 
 now and hereafter in such a manner as 
 appeared to be most consistent with 
 the interests of their illustrious client* 
 
12S 
 
 TIIIAT- OP THE QUEEN. 
 
 This they were the more entitled to 
 from the Queen having been a list of 
 the witnesses to be brought against 
 her, and a specification of the places 
 in which it bad been .alleged the 
 offences imputed to her had been com- 
 mitted. 
 
 The ATTORNEY and SOLICI- 
 TOR-GENERALS having been heard 
 in answer, Mr. BROUGHAM replied. 
 The House then adjourned. 
 
 TUESDAY, August 29th. 
 
 This morning Lord LIVERPOOL 
 moved to withdraw the resolution 
 which he yesterday proposed, and up- 
 on which counsel had been heard, and 
 to substitute in its stead, " That the 
 counsel be called in, and informed, 
 that the House consented, under the 
 special circumstances of the case, to 
 allow them to proceed in the cross- 
 examination in the way in vvhich they 
 had proposed." After much discus- 
 sion, during which, for the sake of 
 form, the proposition of Lord Liver- 
 pool was proposed as an amendment to 
 the resolution of the preceding day, a 
 division took place. The numbers 
 wore : Contents, 121 — Non Contents 
 106— Majority 15. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE, adverting to the 
 difficulties into which tlie House would 
 necessarily be plunged by the in- 
 tendsd mode of proceeding, moved, 
 " That tiie counsel for the bill be in- 
 tfuctsd to deliver a list of witnesses 
 remaining to be examined, with a spe- 
 cification of the times and places to 
 which the testimony of such remaining 
 witnesses was to be applied, and that 
 the house should afterwards adjourn 
 till such time as should be judged 
 necessary for the Queen to prepare her 
 defence. 
 
 Lord LAUDERDALE said the 
 House had already sufficiently mani- 
 fested its determination on this iubject. 
 
 A debate followed, and a division 
 took place. 
 
 Contents, 61 — Non Contents, 164 — 
 Majority, 103. 
 
 Counsel were finally called in, and 
 
 TheLORD-CHANCELLORstated, 
 as the resolution of the House, " that 
 her Majesty's counsel might be per- 
 mitted to cross-examine the witness as 
 far as they should think fit in the first 
 instance, with liberty ^ call tliem bi^ick 
 for further cross examination when such 
 conrse should seem to them desirable." 
 
 BARBARA KRESS was then re- 
 called, and her cross-examination was 
 continued by Mr. BROUGHAM, 
 through the medium of Mr. Charles ' 
 Kersten, the Queen s Interpreter. 
 
 She now lived in a private house, 
 with her brother. She came that" 
 morning in a coach, over a bridge. 
 Nobody beside her brother lived in the 
 house with her, except the people of 
 the house. Neither her brother or any 
 one else had promised her any thing, 
 but they said she should have reim- 
 bursement for the time she had lost, 
 when she got home. It was the Duke 
 of Birksted who told her this. He 
 was a minister. After the Princess 
 went away from the inn at Carlsruhe, 
 Baron Von Grimm walked about the 
 rooms. He was there before the Prin- 
 resscame. Heran about; went through 
 the apartment, and took the key of 
 the room. Two gentlemen were with 
 him. Baron Yon Grimm, as far as she 
 knew, was Ambassador from Wurtem- 
 berg. She never saw the Princess 
 dine at the inn. She had seen the 
 Grand Duke come to visit the Pria-. 
 cess, and another gentleman with him. 
 It was when she was making the bed 
 that she saw what she had described. 
 That was the first bed she made, when 
 " they left" it, except the bed of her 
 master and mistress. She was as- 
 sisted by two servants to turn the mat- 
 tress. They came with the Princess. 
 When Baron Birsted talked to her of 
 coming to England, he said she would 
 be forced to go; and she answered 
 that she would go, and God might settle 
 the business as he pleased. [Here the 
 witness was a good deal affected.] 
 She could swear that nothing hud been 
 promised to her. She knew a place 
 called tiie *' Glass House," near t»«G 
 gates of Carlsruhe. She had walk, .v 
 there with her husband for pleasure. 
 She had been there also with her bro- 
 ther and sisters; that was by day, and 
 never by night. After she saw the 
 Princess and Bergami in the room to- 
 gether, she went to the Countess of 
 bldi's room. No. .5, with some water. 
 She did not go for the purpose of see-, 
 ing whether the Xountess of Oldl 
 was there. She' just carried the 
 water there, and savv the Princess and 
 the Countess. She could swear tbat 
 she never had any conversation with 
 any body respecting her going to the 
 room to see whether the Countess of 
 Oldi was there. She did not know a 
 
EVIDENCE OP G. BIANCHI AND P. RAGGAZZONI. 
 
 JS3 
 
 Captain or Major Jones in this coun- 
 try. Shcliad been in no Ijousc, except 
 that in wliich she lived, since her ar- 
 rival in tht» country. 
 
 Examined by the PEERS.— After 
 the Princess went away, she told Baron 
 Griniin what she had observed. After 
 sJie had seen the Princess and Berga- 
 mi, slie frequently went to the room, 
 and attempted to go in, but found it 
 locked. 
 
 By the Earl of MANSFIELD.— 
 When sJic observed the bed of Berga- 
 uii in the morning, and saw tiic stains 
 of whi<h she spoke, it had not the ap- 
 pearance of two persons having slept 
 ia it. The pillows, or cushions, lay 
 one on the other, as far as she could 
 recollect. 
 
 The witness then withdrew. 
 
 Princess's hand to assist her into the 
 gondola. 
 
 NINTH WITNESS. 
 
 [GuissEPPi BiAXCin.J 
 GUISSEPPI BIANCHI was then 
 
 Jmt to the bar. He deposed as fol- 
 ows : — 
 
 I aai an Italian Swiss : I live at Ve- 
 nice: I am guard or door-keeper to 
 the inn of Grand Bretagne. I saw the 
 Princess of Wales twice at Venice : 
 the first time, five years ago : she was 
 at the Grand Bretagne inn. She was 
 there three days, and then went into 
 an adjoining house. She had three 
 couriers : a Brunswick courier, Ber- 
 gami, and Majochi. I went to carry 
 something to the house in which the 
 Princess was, every day. I recollect 
 a jeweller coming to the house. The 
 Princess bought of him a gold chain. 
 This was at the time the company was 
 going to get up from dinner. Bergami 
 was in the room : he was always be- 
 hind the chair of the Princess, to 
 change her plate, in the dress of a 
 courier. I saw the Princess and Ber- 
 gami together after the company left 
 the room. After having gut up, the 
 Princess took the dhain from her own 
 neck and put it round the neck of the 
 courier. The courier afterwards took 
 it from his own neck and put it round 
 hcr's ; and then he took her by the 
 hand and accompanied her to the sa- 
 looiw He then came away to dinner. 
 I saw Bergami when the Princess came 
 again to Venice. He was then called 
 by all " Baron Bergami.'' They went 
 out together frequently arm in arm. 
 They went on the canal together. 
 Twice they went alone. 1 took the 
 
 CROSS-EXAMINATION. 
 
 Crots-examined by Mr. DENMAN. 
 — I was in the room when I saw what 
 was done with the gold chain. I have 
 been to Milan to be examined. I re- 
 ceived nothing but my expences for 
 the journey. To come here I have re- 
 ceived nothing but my travelling ex- 
 pences. I have made no agreement 
 nor condition. If they will give m9 
 something I shall take it. I saw Co- 
 lonel Brown, Vilmarcati, and a certain 
 Andriozi, at Milan. I have lived in 
 this country with twenty or twenty- 
 five more: Majochi is one of them. 
 The jeweller to whom I allude, lives at 
 Venice ; his name is Fana. I was told 
 if I did not come willingly to England 
 I should go by force. I saw the En- 
 glish consul (Mr. Hopner) at Venice, 
 but never spoke to him on this subject. 
 
 Witness withdrew and the house ad- 
 journed. 
 
 WEDNESDAY^ August 30. 
 
 The House met at the usual hour. 
 The counsel being called in they pro- 
 ceeded to the examination of witnesses. 
 
 TENTH WITNESS. 
 [Paulo Kaggazzoni.] 
 Examined by the SOLICITOR- 
 GENERAL.— I am a native of Italy : 
 I am a mason : I was employed to work 
 at the Villa d'Este. I was a master 
 mason: I had from twenty to thirty 
 men employed under me at times. 
 When I went to work at the Villa 
 d'Este the Princess of Wales and Ber- 
 gami were in Greece. I afterwards 
 saw them at the Villa d'Este. I have 
 seen them on the lake together. There 
 was a canoe there in which I have seen 
 them alone more than once or twice, 
 I have seen them alone in tlie garden. 
 Once I saw the Princess in a chair> 
 with wheels to it. Bergami was push- 
 ing her : they were alone. The Baroa 
 afterwards got in, and the Princess 
 pushed it. I remember being at work 
 in a grotto in the garden. I was mak- 
 ing a cornice to a round room. There 
 was a room adjoining to that room in 
 which I was at work. While I was 
 there J heard somebody enter. I apt 
 down off the scaffold , and I saw lae 
 
124 
 
 THIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 Princess and Bcrgaml come in. There 
 were two figures in the adjoining room, 
 one of Adam, the oHicr oV Eve, That 
 of Adam had the leaf of a fig ; Eve had 
 a similar leaf. They looked at the fi- 
 gnres and laughed together. The 
 leaves were fastened on by iron wires 
 which went round the figures, and 
 they, I mean the Princess and Ber- 
 ganii, put the leaves aside. I placed 
 myself behind a pillar to observe what 
 they were doing; and when I saw 
 them coming towards me I mounted 
 the scaffold, and began to work again 
 at the cornice. I reniembe*' a fete 
 given at the Villa d'Este on St. Bar- 
 tholomew's day. I went home to a 
 place called La Piaze on that occasion 
 at one o'clock or half-past, and went 
 to bed. La Piaze is situated at the 
 end of a walk in a garden which is 
 next the Villa d'Este. I know a per- 
 son of the name X)t Dominica Bruizzo. 
 On the night in question he was with 
 me. It was as near as I can recollect 
 half-past one when we passed through 
 the garden. As I went along I saw 
 the Princess and Bergami at the end 
 of the walk. They were on a seat to- 
 gether: they were alone. I have at- 
 tended the theatre at the Villa d'Este, 
 and have seen the Princess and Ber- 
 gami act together. The Princess 
 played the character of a sick woman ; 
 and the Baron performed the part of 
 a person to go and see her;; to feel her 
 hand and perform the part of a doctor 
 It was an hour and a half after sunset 
 when I saw the Princess and Bergami 
 sitting on the bench at the end of the 
 walk. 
 
 GROSS-EXAMINATION. 
 
 Cross-examined by Dr. LUSHING- 
 TON. — I was examined at Milan in 
 1818, by.the advocate Vilmarcati. The 
 government of Milan sent for me, that 
 I should appear before the police. 
 They sent a courier for me named 
 Rostelli; he had lived with the Prin- 
 cess at the Villa d'Este. He said I 
 must go to Milan, because government 
 wanted me ; that was all. He did not 
 tell me for what I was wanted. I went 
 because he told me " You must go, 
 because you have been living with the 
 Princess of Wales, and you must tell 
 what you know." I had not before 
 spoken to any person of the circum- 
 stance I have now mentioned. When 
 examined at Milan what I stated was 
 
 taken down in writing; I sign(d it. I 
 took the cross I had about n»e and 
 swore to the truth of what I stated. I 
 received nothing for going to Milan. 
 I was then told 1 should 1>€ sent to 
 England. I came with Rostelli, tbe 
 courier, to Holland, and from Holland 
 to here I was accompanied by an En- 
 glishman. 
 
 ELEVENTH WITNESS. 
 
 (HiERpNYMO MlARDI.) 
 
 HIERONYMO MIARDI sworn 
 and examined. 
 
 I am a native of Italy. I was in the 
 service of the Princess about two 
 months at the Villa d'Este. I was di, 
 rector of the gardens; that was in the 
 year 1816, or the beginning of 1817, 
 I know Bergami. I knew him before 
 he was in the service of the Princces. 
 He was an excise officer's officer to 
 put the mark upon casks of wine. He 
 was a very poor man. I have seen the 
 Princess and Bergami walk together 
 very frequently. They always went 
 arm in arm. They behaved towards 
 each other as if they were married. I 
 have seen them together alone in a 
 canoe, and in a carriage called Pado 
 Vanello. Bergami was sitting on the 
 back part, and the Princess on his lap, 
 I have seen them together in the kitchen 
 repeatedly. They were eating at a 
 table where the cook was eating : some- 
 times from one plate, sometimes from 
 two. I saw ihem near the little gar- 
 den-gate once— they were kissing. I 
 was behind, and did not see whether 
 they kissed with thoir mouths. 
 
 CROSSrEXAMINATlON. 
 
 Cross-examined by Mr. TINDAL. — •. 
 I was sent for to go to Milan in the 
 month of February, 1818, on this sub- 
 ject. I was living at that time at 
 Monca ; that was ten miles from Milan. 
 The person who came, and whom I did 
 not know, told me the advocate Vil- 
 marcati wanted to speak to me. I 
 went to Vilmarcati's house, and saw 
 three or four p'eople whom I did not 
 know. They were English : one of 
 them I heard was. Colonel Brown. 
 What I said was taken in writing. I 
 signed it. They made me swear to 
 come here. I left Italy for the pur- 
 pose of coming here on the 29th ojf 
 June. There were twelve of us. I 
 do Hot know who the others were ; \ 
 
EVIDENCE OF PAOLI OGIONI. 
 
 125 
 
 k«ovv them by sight. Majochi did not 
 come with us, Uis wife <lid, A person 
 named Kostelli tirst told me to come to 
 England. He had been in the service 
 of the Princess. I do not know that 
 he had been dismissed from the service 
 for stealing corn. I made no agree- 
 ment for coming here : I had no pro- 
 mise of recompence whatever. Ma- 
 jochi said nothing to me about his ex- 
 amination. 
 
 PAULO RAGGAZZONI was then 
 recalled, and, in answer to questions 
 put to him, said, that he had been ex- 
 amined since he came to England. 
 ,He did not know the day. 
 
 Examined by Mr. BROUGHAM.— 
 The person who questioned him had a 
 paper in his hand; and he was asking 
 him questions whether they were true, 
 and the witness replied, " Yes." 
 
 TWELFTH WITNESS. 
 
 [Paoli Ogiom.] 
 
 PAOLI OGIONI sworn : and ex- 
 amined by the ATTORNEY-GENE- 
 RAL. 
 
 I am a native of Lodi, in Italy. I 
 was in the service of the Princess of 
 Wales, as under cook, for almost a 
 year, t quitted her service in 1817. 
 I lived with her at the Villa d'Este and 
 the Barona. I quitted her service in 
 1817. I knew Berarami first at Lodi. 
 This was in 1808 or 1809 I have seen 
 iiim about Lodi, and then in prison. 
 Upon the witness being asked, ** Where 
 in prison V 
 
 Mr. DENMAN objected to this 
 question, as wholly irrelevant to the 
 present case. What lie was, or where 
 he was, in 1808, could have nothing to 
 do with the question now at issue. 
 Such ipterrogations could only occupy 
 their lordships' time uselessly. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL only 
 wished to know where the witness had 
 seen Bergami, and had no desire to 
 put questions in the slightest degree 
 irrelevant to the case. 
 
 Examination continued : — Bergami 
 was in the Princess's service when I 
 went to her. He was Baron. He had 
 the superintendance of the household. 
 I have seen the Princess and Bergami 
 repeatedly together: going out and 
 into the kitchen, and elsewhere. They 
 \^cre arm in arm. I have seen tlie 
 |*rinces.s out riding; the Baron and 
 
 one of the servants were with her. 
 The Princess and the Baron went into 
 the kitchen to eat, and sometimes ta 
 do something else. They had some- 
 thing to eat. When the Princess was 
 at Barona, she gave some balls; they 
 were attended by the country people 
 in the neighbourhood, and persons of 
 low condition. The Princess did not 
 dance with any of these persons. She 
 danced by herself, and sometimes with 
 Bergami. I know the wife of the inn- 
 keeper at the St. Christopher. She 
 came twice to the balls, as did the 
 daughters of the farmer who rented 
 the land of the Barona. The dancea 
 were in the '•'' salle-a-manger" Other 
 rooms were used next to the Princess's 
 chamber. I have repeatedly seen the 
 Princess and Bergami walking about 
 alone. I know a person of the name 
 of Mahomet. I have seen him per- 
 forming a dance. (The witness upon 
 being called on to describe the dance, 
 threw himself into various attituden, 
 snapping his fingers, and moving up 
 and down.) Those were not the only 
 motions he made. I have seen him 
 make many gesticulations. I have seen 
 the Princess present more than once at 
 these dances at the Villa d'Este and 
 the Barona. Sometimes in the kitchen, 
 sometimes in the court yard. Maho- 
 met made a roil in his breeches, and 
 did with it so (making a motion). The 
 witness was then asked as to what this 
 roll was meant to represent, his an- 
 swer was such as cannot with propriety 
 be described. The Princess laughed^ 
 and seemed to be very much gratified. 
 Females were not present at these 
 dances. 
 
 CROSS-EXAMINATION. 
 Cross-examined by Mr. WILDE. — 
 I left the Princess's service in 1817. I 
 was not discharged for drunkenness. 
 When she went to Rome, 1 was left 
 with six others. My discharge was 
 when she set out, till I received a new 
 order. The order never came. I did 
 not receive any pay from the Prince«s 
 after that time. I next went into the 
 serviceofa priest; his name was Cotta 
 Bourbouni. I was out of service six 
 months before I went to him. I sup- 
 ported myself on my honse. I was a 
 married man : 1 had one child, ^^y 
 wife and child did not come to England 
 with me ; they are at Lodi. I lived 
 with the priest about a year, as foot- 
 
m 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 \ nian and c-ook. My next service was 
 with the Vice PreVcct of Monca. I 
 was ajjplied to on tliis biisiniss by the 
 police of Milan. I had never men 
 tioned any of the circumstances I have 
 mentioned here before. I said notlilng 
 tili I was sent for. I was examined at 
 Milan. My examination was taken in 
 writing. I Ijavc not seen it since. I 
 have been examined also in Enj^land: 
 the person who examined me had a 
 |)appr -which lie read. 
 
 Re-cxainmcd. — When I first landed 
 in England it was at Dover. I stopped 
 cne day and a night. 
 . [All further examination on this sub- 
 ject was stopped on the interposition 
 of Mr. Denman.] 
 
 Marquis of LANSDOWN.— I wish 
 tl»e witness to state, if he is able, whe- 
 ther, on the occasions on which he has 
 described a person of the name of 
 Mahomet to have exhibited before the 
 Princess, he can declare, from his own 
 knowledge, that Mahomet had been 
 sent for by her Royal Highness? — Her 
 Royal Highness never sent for Ma- 
 homet. 
 
 By another Peer. — What did Ma- 
 hen.et represent with part of his dress ? 
 • * ■ * * 
 
 You have described this Mahomet 
 making up a roll; what did it repre- 
 sent? It seemed as if it were * * ♦ 
 
 Did lier Royal Highness, while this 
 dance was performing, remain? Was 
 it all performed in her presence? — She 
 did remain. 
 
 How long did her Royal Highness 
 remain ? — I cannot precisely say. 
 
 Does the witness know the cause of 
 Jtergami's leaving her Koyal Highncss's 
 service ?^ — No. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL ex- 
 pressed a wish that the answer of the 
 witness to the question, whether her 
 Royal Highness had sent for Mahomet, 
 should be read. 
 
 The short-hand writer read the ques- 
 tion and answer, viz — " On the occa- 
 sion in which you saw Mahomet use 
 certain gesticulations in her Royal 
 Jlighness's presence, can yon state, on 
 your own knowledge, that he was sent 
 for by her Royal Highness ? — Her 
 Royal Highness did not send for him — 
 jiot altogether." 
 
 Earl of LIVERPOOL.— Does the 
 witness mean to say,- that her Royal 
 Highness did not send for Mahomet at 
 all?— I never saw ^ny person sent to 
 fetch l^m. I.^on t know that any per- 
 
 son was sent ; but I know she cam* 
 V. hen he was dancinir. 
 
 How long did she remain present 
 when Mahomet was making those ges- 
 ticulations.? — When she came I saw 
 her ; but how long she stayed I paid 
 no attention to, for I attended to my 
 dntv. 
 
 Viscount FALMOUTH.— The wit- 
 ness says that the Princess gave balls: 
 I wish to know \\ho asked the com- 
 pany; whether it was the Princess, or 
 whether it was the servants were allow- 
 ed to ask their friends? — I don't know 
 who invited the company. They came, 
 I don't know who invited them, be- 
 cause I attended to my own business. 
 
 Thenf I understand they were not 
 servants' balls ?-^— They were not. 
 
 Lord DE DUNSTANVILLE. — 
 Did you consider the motions of Majio- 
 met as the mere customary motions of 
 that person in his dance? — He alvAjays 
 made those gestures as a customary act 
 to his dance. 
 
 Earl of DARNLEY.— During those 
 exhibitions of IMahomef were there 
 many persons present? Were women 
 present as well as men ? — There were 
 no women. 
 
 Ihe examination of this witness 
 closed here. 
 
 THIRTEENTH WITNESS. 
 
 (Louisa Dumont.) 
 
 LOUISA DUMONT was next called 
 in. The examination of this woman 
 had been looked for with considerable 
 curiosity, and the moment she ap- 
 peared at the bur, llie peers in all parts 
 stood up to look at her. She did not 
 seem abashed. She is a woman of 
 pelite figure, will made but not hand- 
 some. She was dressed with great 
 neatness, and rather expensively. Her 
 gown was of black sarsnet, " richly 
 trimmed. On her head she wore a 
 black satin hat, and round her neck a 
 ruff, trimmed with lace. Over hep 
 shoulders and bosom was thrown a 
 small white silk neck kerchief. The 
 curiosity of the noble lords having 
 been gratified, they sat down amidst 
 the cries of '' order ! order !'* Tlie 
 Marquis of Spinetto having sworn the 
 witness, he was proceeding to examine 
 her in the French language, when 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS interposed, and 
 begged to ask her if she could not 
 speak English. She answered. *' very 
 little." She admitted that she h^d been 
 
C0 ("Tp 
 
 ?n^^iti^. 
 
 rf^-:? 
 
 ^S^^MryfA r ' t^accAi.y'. 
 
 Puh^ Cctrt^.lS'jo. 
 
EVIDENCE OF LOUISA DUMONT. 
 
 127 
 
 in this conntry six months ; bwt a sub- 
 sequent question btiusj put to her in 
 English, she did not seerri to undei- 
 staud it, or to be able to give an an- 
 swer (cries of '' Go on, fjo on.") The 
 examination then proceeded in French. 
 Witness said, I am a native of the 
 Pays de Vaud. I had resided at Bo- 
 logna before I went into tlie service of 
 the Princess of Wales. I am a Protes- 
 tant. I cnga«;ed with the l^rincess at 
 Lausanne. I first had the situation of 
 fcmme-de-chambre. I weut with the 
 Princess to Milan. In the suite of her 
 Royal Highness were four gentlemen : 
 Sir ^Ym. Gell, Mr. K. Craven, Dr. 
 Holland, and Mr. Hesse. The ladies 
 with her Mere Lady Elizabeth Forbes 
 au<l Lady Lindsay. When we arrived 
 at Milan, we lodged at the Royal Ho- 
 tel. I remember a person of the name 
 of Bergami being engaged in that place 
 as courier to the Princess. This was 
 fourteen or fifteen da\s before we went 
 from thence. During that period Ber- 
 gami waited at table,and wore the dress 
 of a courier. From Milan her Royal 
 Highness passed through Rome to Na- 
 ples. I recollect a person of the name 
 of Wm. Austin being with her Royal 
 Highness. He was in the habit of 
 sleeping in the room of her Royal 
 Highness. On the night before we 
 entered Naples, the Princess slept at a 
 country house. I cannot say whether 
 on that night Wm. Austin slept in her 
 Royal Highncss's room. Her Royal 
 Highness told me on that evening, that 
 Wni. Austin was too big to sleep fnher 
 room, and that he must have a chamber 
 to himself. Up to this period, Ber- 
 gami breakfasted and dined with the 
 other servants. I do not remember the 
 roonv in which Bergami slept on the 
 first night of his arrival in Naples. 
 The second night ho slei^t in a room near 
 to that of the Princess. There was an 
 internal communication between the 
 two rooms. There was a small cabinet 
 and a passage, through which an ap- 
 proach might be made from one to the 
 ether. There was a door leading out 
 of the pa.ssage to the other pait of the 
 house; when this door was fastened, 
 and the outer door of Bevgami's room, 
 no person could get to the Princess's 
 chamber. The evening after the arri- 
 val of the Princess at Naples, her Royal 
 HigJmess told me when she was dress- 
 ing, that .she was going to the Opera. 
 %he returned early, and .sent for lue. 1 
 ♦tot to her chawber. The Princess 
 
 crossed the passage to which I have al- 
 ready alluded, an(f entered the cabinet, 
 Ido not know whorcBergami was at that 
 time. Neither do I know what her Royal 
 Highness did in the cabinet ; as soon 
 as she returned into the bed-room, she 
 told me to forbid Wm. Austin to sleep 
 in her room, as she wished to be quiet. 
 Wm. Austin slept in a sriiall cabinet 
 where he remained all the time. That 
 cabinet was near to tne chamber of her 
 Royal Highness, and there was a door 
 of communication between them. I 
 saw that door shut on the night in 
 question. When that door was shut, 
 there was no communication, between 
 the cabinet and the passage. There 
 were two beds in her Royal Highness's 
 chamber : a large bed and a travelling 
 bed. She usually slept in the travel- 
 ling bed. It was made up for her that 
 night. I saw afterwards that there 
 were no sheets on the other bed. I 
 remained some minutes with her Royal 
 Highness before I left the room. I 
 saw her Royal Highness extremely agi- 
 tated. I do not know where Bergami 
 slept that night. I believe 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.— We do not 
 want your belief. 
 
 I do not recollect precisely the hour 
 at which I saw her Royal Highness the. 
 next morning. It was about eleven 
 o'clock,nearly her usual hour of vising. 
 I did not see Bergami the whole of the 
 morning. The first time I ^aw him 
 that day was at dinner. I look notice 
 of the travelling bed that morriing. I 
 observed that nobody had slept in it, 
 but that the larger bed had bien slept 
 in. It was not much deiant;ed, Mr. 
 Jeronymus slept near her Royal 
 Highness. That was in a room before 
 entering the room of the Princess. It 
 was in a room off the corridor. The 
 two doors opened into the same pas- 
 sage. I have seen Bergami in the 
 Princess's bed-room often at Naples. 
 I. assisted her Royal Highness in 
 making her toilette, on those occasions 
 I have seen Mr. William Austin and 
 Bergami present. Bergami was a cou- 
 rier at tliat time. Wm. Austin was 13 
 years of age. I have frequently seeij 
 Bergami in the Princess's bed-room. 
 Her Royal Highness was sometimes 
 dressed and sometimes not. Bergami 
 entered, and went in and out. I have 
 seen Bergami in the passage which I 
 mentioned at nij:ht. Her Kiyal High- 
 ness was then in her bed-iooni un^- 
 dresscd. I was near her Royal lligh« 
 
128 
 
 TRIAL OF TUE QUEEN. 
 
 ness's bed-room, I saw liergami come 
 out of his room, and come ttirongh the 
 passage, he went towards the Princess's 
 bed-room. He was not dressed, at all 
 (a laugh.) He had slppers on his feet; 
 I saw no stockings ; he had nothing on 
 but his shirt. The Princess had not 
 got into bed. When I saw Bergami in 
 this way, I ran away ; I escaped by a 
 little door near me out of the apart- 
 ment of the Princess. I did not after- 
 wards observe the state of the smaller 
 travelling bed. More than one ap- 
 peared to have slept in the large bed. 
 I have always seen it (nieme chose) 
 the same thing at Naples. It was part 
 of my business at the latter end of our 
 stay at Naples, to make the Princess's 
 bed. I made the small travelling bed. 
 I cannot remember whether I made it 
 up every day. I remember a masked 
 ball being given to her Royal Highness 
 by Murat in a house near the sea. 
 Her Royal Highness dressed herself in 
 a room of the house where the ball was. 
 Her Royal Highness went in the cha- 
 racter of a country girl in the Beigh- 
 bourhood of Naples. It was my busi- 
 es ess to assist her Royal Highness in 
 putting on the dress of that character. 
 I went to the house, and Bergami went 
 also at the same time. Her Royal 
 Highness remained in that character 
 about an hour. Her Royal Highness 
 returned for the purpose of changing 
 he^ character. The dress she took the 
 second time was that of the Genius of 
 History. She was obliged to change 
 her dress entirely for that purpose. I 
 did not assist her in changing her 
 dress. Bergami went into the room 
 with her Royal Highness ; into the 
 room where the toilette was. I stood 
 in theanti-room. I saw Bergami enter 
 tlie room. He remained about three 
 quarters of au hour. Bergami came 
 out of the room first, and her Royal 
 Highness came out after in a very lit- 
 tle time in two or three minutes. Her 
 Royal Highness went down stairs to 
 go to the ball in this character. She 
 was absent about three quarters of an 
 bour, when she returned again into the 
 anti-room. In the dress of the Genius 
 of History, her Royal Highncss's arms 
 were bare, her breasts bare, and the 
 drapery was, as usual in that character, 
 looped' up before. I did not observe 
 wlrtther the arms were entirely na^ed. 
 Wiien her Royal Highness came back 
 the second time, she went again into 
 Ib^ dressing-room to change her dress. 
 
 I went in to assist her. Her Royat 
 Highness took a dress something like 
 a Turkish peasant. Bergami was in 
 the anti-room, and in coming out I saw 
 him arrayed like a Turk. I saw her 
 Royal Highness going down stairs in 
 this dress, and Bergami went with her. 
 The Princess was on Bergami's arm. 
 He was still a courier. The Princess 
 returned immediately from the ball- 
 room. I do not remember whether 
 Bergami returned with or before her. 
 There was a garden belonging to our 
 house in which there was a terrace. I 
 once saw Bergami walking with the 
 Princess on this terrace : they were 
 alone, the Princess leanir^ on his arm. 
 The Princess M'as in the habit of break- 
 fasting in a small cabinet near Berga- 
 mi's room. I remember an accident 
 happening to Bergami at Naples. On 
 that occasion there was a sofa in this 
 cabinet. I know the theatre of San 
 Carlos. I went there with her Royal 
 Highness and Bergami, in a hackney 
 carriage. Bergami went in the same 
 carriage. Her Royal Highness went 
 through the terrace in the garden to a 
 small door which led out of the gar- 
 den. It was a very gloomy night ; it 
 rained. When we went to the theatre 
 we went high to the top, to the saloon 
 where they walked. Her Royal High- 
 ness was dressed in a red cloak. Ber- 
 gami was in a red domino ; a large 
 hat was on his head. After we got 
 into the saloon we descended into the 
 pit. When we got there many ugly 
 masks surrounded us, and began to 
 make a great noise and hiss. We 
 had great difficulty to withdraw, and 
 get into a small room. Her Royal 
 Highness's dress was very ugly, mon- 
 strous. 
 
 Lord HAMPDEN repeated—" Very 
 ugly — monstrously ugly dress." 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.— I beg to call 
 the attention of your lordships, with 
 great humility, to Mhat appears to me 
 exceedingly irregular. One of the 
 judges in this case enlarges the ex- 
 pression given in evidence, by a con- 
 struction which the words do not bear. 
 The witness says, '' very ugly — mon- 
 strous," and a noble lord thinks him- 
 self called on — (Loud cries of "Orderj 
 order.") 
 
 Lord HAMPDEN rose, and said 
 something which we could not hear, 
 (" Order, order.") 
 
 The LOKD-CHANCELLOR said, 
 that if any noble lord thought the 
 
EVIDENCE OF LOUISA DUMONT. 
 
 id9 
 
 »nswer was not correct, he had a right 
 to have it corrected. 
 
 Lord HAMPDEN made some ob- 
 servation which we could not hear. 
 
 Tlie answer of the witness was re- 
 peated in the terms originally given. 
 After this we were three or four 
 months at Naples. Bergami served 
 during that period. The Princess and 
 Bergami were very familiar together. 
 The familiarity commenced from the 
 moment we arrived at Naples. The 
 servants were not in the habit of going 
 into her Royal Highness's room with- 
 out knocking, unless sent for by her. 
 Bergami never knocked. None of her 
 Royal Highness's suite left her while 
 we staid at Naples. Some remained 
 when we went away. M^e went from 
 Naples to Rome. Dr. Holland ac- 
 companied the Princess. Lady Eliza- 
 beth Forbes remained at Naples. Lady 
 Charlotte Lindsay was with her Royal 
 Highness at Rome. From Rome her 
 Royal Highness went to Civita Vecchia 
 and Genoa. Mr. Hannam joined her 
 Royal Highness's suite at Genoa. 
 Lady Charlotte Lindsay left at Leg- 
 horn. The beds of Bergami and the 
 Princess were very near at Genoa. A 
 single room separated them. In this 
 room there was luggage of her Royal 
 Highness, and she dressed there. 
 There was a communication between 
 that room and the room of Bergami. 
 Her Royal Highness breakfasted at 
 Genoa in a small cabinet at the end of 
 the saloon. Bergami was with her. 
 He was a courier then. Louis Ber- 
 gami and Majocchi waited at break- 
 fast, Louis Bergami was Bergami's 
 brother. I remember the garden at 
 Genoa. I often saw the Princess 
 and Bergami walking alone in the 
 shrubbery. I had to do with the beds 
 at Genoa until my sister arrived. The 
 door between my room and that of the 
 Princess was shut at night. The 
 Princess turned the key inside. In the 
 morning the Princess herself called me 
 into the room. I observed that the 
 bed of the Princess more often had not 
 been slept in— by this I mean generally, 
 in common. 
 
 The witnesii was now asked this 
 question : — You said that after you 
 were in your bed-room the Princess 
 locked the door on the other side; I 
 want to know whether after this you 
 heard any noise as of a door opening? 
 Counsel were here ordered to with- 
 draw* 
 
 17 
 
 The Duke of HAMILTON said 
 that he interposed with great reluc* 
 tance, because he thought the inter* 
 preter not quite competent to the task 
 he had undertaken : he should be want- 
 ing to himself and to his country, in a 
 case of so ranch importance, on which 
 the eyes of all Europe were fixed, if 
 he did not take the objection, and say 
 that the mode of interpretation as it 
 had been conducted since this witness 
 was called had not been satisfactory 
 to him. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that 
 the gentleman officiating as interpre-^ 
 ter (the Marquis de Spiuetto), had 
 shown himself an excellent Italian, but 
 he did not seem quite so perfect in the 
 French language. He was not aware 
 that any material mistake had been 
 made by him, but the Interpreter had 
 certainly appeared embarrassed some- 
 times, and it might be better if a gen- 
 tleman could be procured more con- 
 versant with French. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, 
 that from the inquiries they had made 
 they had reason to think the Marquis 
 de Spinetto perfectly competent to 
 discharge the duty he had undertaken. 
 He and the interpreter on the other 
 side had only differed regarding a single 
 expression. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM attempted to 
 speak,. but was interrupted by cries of 
 " order." 
 
 The Earl of HARRO WBY admitted 
 that the Interpreter did not seem suf- 
 ficiently acquainted with the idiom of 
 the French language, although he was 
 not aware that he had made any mis- 
 take ; of his general intelligence and 
 competence, as far as his own language 
 was concerned, there could be no 
 doubt (hear). It was necessary, how- 
 ever, that a person should be provided 
 well versed in the respective idioms of 
 the two languages, French and En- 
 glish. 
 
 The Earl of ESSEX, as we under- 
 stood, instanced a misapprehension 
 into which the Interpreter had fallen. 
 
 Ejirl GREY agreed that no unfaith- 
 ful translation had been given by the 
 Interpreter, and that his task was aii 
 arduous one, recoliectiug the liability 
 of confusing three languages, two of 
 them not his ow^. He had hitherto 
 performed his duty in his native tongue 
 ki the most satisfactory manner. — 
 (Cheers). 
 The Duke of HAMILTON meant 
 
ISO 
 
 TRIAL O* TKE QUEEN, 
 
 to cast no imputation on the gentleman 
 vrJjo had §o well performed his duty 
 hitherto. ('^ Go on.") 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM endeavoured to 
 obtain a hearing. ('*]No, no — goon." 
 « Order.") The Solicitor-GenerHl had 
 been heard, and in mere fairness he 
 might be allovs^ed to say, that he and 
 his friends had no complaint to make 
 against any part of the interpretation 
 hitherto made, as far as they were 
 judges of the subject. The French of 
 the Marquis de Spinctto was certainly 
 Hot «o good as his Italian, but at least 
 for this day he had no objection to its 
 being continued, and to-morrow ano- 
 ther Interpreter could be procured. 
 (Hear). 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL had 
 made ixiquiiy, and found that to-mor- 
 row morning another Interpreter would 
 be in attendance ; in the mean time 
 the house might proceed as it had be- 
 gan. (" Go oUf go on.") 
 
 The Earl of LAUDERDALE sug- 
 gested that both parties should be pro- 
 vided with a French Interpreter. 
 
 The LORD - CHANCELLOR so 
 iDforaicd the counsel. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM added, that an 
 Englishman, Virho thcroughly under- 
 stood French would make the best In- 
 terpreter. The examination of the 
 witness was then continued. 
 
 The question put at the time when 
 the Duke of Hamilton interposed was 
 read to the witness, who said i* I have 
 sometimes heard a noise of a door 
 opening toward the side of the Prin- 
 cess, but I did not know if it were the 
 door of her room." 
 
 Was there any other door that you 
 recolle«t in that direction, excepting 
 the door of the Princess's room, or of 
 Bergami's? — There was a third door, 
 leading into the dressing-room of her 
 Royal Highness. 
 
 Was that the room you described as 
 being the room between the bed-room 
 of the Princess and that of Bergami r 
 <^The room was between the two 
 rooms ; there was a third door, which 
 was the room where her Royal High- 
 ness dressed herself. 
 
 After you heard the door open, did 
 yoii hear any noise in the Princess's 
 room during the remainder of the 
 night, or was all quiet? — All was quiet. 
 Was it your business at that period 
 to make the bed of the Princess? — 
 Yes. 
 
 Will you describe what you were in 
 
 the habit of doing to the bed ?— I lai^ 
 the cushions, and I spread the clothes. 
 
 Did you make the bed entirely?— 
 Very rarely. 
 
 Why did yon not? — Because there 
 was no need of it ; it was made. 
 
 Was it in that state in the morning 
 always when you went for the first 
 time into her Royal Highuess's bed- 
 room ?*— Generally , almost every mom- 
 ing. 
 
 On furfiier examinotion witness pro- 
 ceeded thus ; — The Princess remained 
 at Genoa nearly two months. During 
 that time Luigi Bergami entered her 
 service. Faustina came to her Royal 
 Highness's house fron^ Milan. She re- 
 mained during the rest of the time her 
 Royal Highness was at Genoa. I know 
 Bergami's mother. She was called 
 Notiua (grandmother). She continued 
 to reside at the Princess's at Genoa. 
 There was a little child, the daughter 
 of Bergami, about two or three years 
 old. While at Genoa,her Royal High- 
 ness went to look at a country house, 
 because she wished to live there, as Jt 
 was distant from the town w'lere there 
 were many English. From Genoa her 
 Royial Highness went to Milan. Lady 
 Charlotte joined her Royal Highness 
 at Genoa. On the road I saw Ber- 
 gami. The Princess often gave him 
 something to eat, and asked him if he 
 wanted any thing. He was on horse- 
 back, dressed as a courier. At Milan 
 we went to the Borroijieo. Here the 
 bed-iooms of her Royal Highness and 
 Bergami were again close together. 
 Lady Charlotte Campbell continued 
 with the Princess at Milan about a 
 month. After she went aviay there 
 was no English lady left in her Royal 
 Highness's suite. Another lady then 
 came as maid of honour, the Countess 
 of Oldi. The Countess was sister to 
 Bergami. I knew tliis two months 
 after her arrival. The Countess could 
 not speak French. Her Royal High- 
 ness spoke very little Italian. 
 
 Did you make any observation on 
 the language of the Countess of Oldi 
 so as to be able to know whether she 
 was a woman of distinction ? — I al- 
 ways observed that she spoke very 
 vuTgar Italian. 
 
 Did you ever see any of her writing^ 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS objected. The 
 question could not be put if any in- 
 ference were to be drawn as to the 
 style of the Countess of Oldi. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.— This Is th» 
 
EVIDENCE OF LOUISA DUMONT. 
 
 131 
 
 arni time a woman has been asked to 
 criticise the style of another woman 
 in a lancrnape which is not her own. 
 
 The .SOLItlTOR-GENERAL.— 
 Pel haps the answer may be that she 
 couk^ not write ("tjo on, ^o on.") 
 
 The Earl of LAtUERDALE made 
 a remark which was not audible by us. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR.— You 
 may ask whether she could read and 
 "Write (" go on.'') 
 
 Did you make any observation on 
 the manners of the Countess of Oldi? 
 In yonr judgment were they the man- 
 ners of a lady of distinction or not ? — 
 (Cries of " No, no," interrupted the 
 reply of the witness). 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.— We make no 
 objection to the question: we beg that 
 the opinion of this Swiss chambermaid 
 on the manners of ladies of distinction 
 may be put down and registered. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR.— 
 Then, if there be no objection, why do 
 you not go on? 
 
 Did you observe if the manners of 
 the Countess Oldi were those of a gen- 
 tlewoman, or not? 
 
 The Interpreter said, that he could 
 not put this question, as there was no 
 word for gentlewoman in the French 
 language. 
 
 [This observation occasioned much 
 laughter.] 
 
 Did you make any observations on 
 the manners of the Countess Oldi? — 
 No. 
 
 I remember a gentleman of the name 
 of William Burrell being with her 
 Royal Highness at Milan. He did not 
 remain very long ; I do not remember 
 precisely. A month, more or less. 
 Dr. Holland quitted at Venice. No 
 otlier English gentleman, except Mr. 
 Hannam, remained in the service of 
 her Uoyal Highness. From the Place 
 iJorronieo her Royal Highness went to 
 Como, to the Villa Villani. There 
 was a gallery round the house inside at 
 the Borronieo. I have seen Bergami 
 opening liis window to call his servant. 
 He had on a blue »ilk gown which the 
 Princess generally put on in the morn- 
 ing. I had seen the Princess wear it 
 often before. After Mr. Burrell went 
 away, there was more freedom in the 
 house. They played in the saloon 
 (her Royal Highness and the servants) 
 every evening. They played different 
 frolics; blind man's buff. The Prin- 
 cess played sometimes. This was 
 after Mr. Burrcll's departure. The 
 
 Princess and Bergami lived very f»e« 
 towards each other. The Princeis 
 went to the Villa d'Este at the begin- 
 ning of September. 
 Adjourned at five o'clock. 
 
 THURSDAY, August 31st. 
 
 LOUISA DUMONT was agafq 
 called, and placed at the bar. Her 
 examination-in-chief was then conti* 
 nued by the Solicitor-General. — In eon- 
 sequence of the objection taken yes- 
 terday to the interpretation of the 
 Marchese Spinetto, a fresh Interpreter 
 was sworn. The witness, iu answer 
 to the questions put to her, proceeded 
 as follows : — 
 
 While the Princess was residing at 
 the Villa Villani, she made a tour to Sit, 
 Gothard. On her return from the tour 
 she stopped at the Borromean Islands. 
 She slept there. She dined, I think, 
 at the Bareze. I was with the Prin- 
 cess before at the Borromean Islands. 
 She slept there on the firs4; occasion. 
 I remember the apartment iu which 
 she slept. That was on a journey 
 which the Princess made from Lau- 
 sanne to Milan. The most elegant 
 apartments that could be found in the 
 islands were prepared for her Koya} 
 Highness. They were at the Borro- 
 mean Palace. The apartment in which 
 the Princess slept on her second visit 
 was remote from that in which she 
 slept when she went there first. Ber- 
 gami slept near the apartment of her 
 Royal Highness. This apartment was 
 prepared for the Princess after her 
 arrival. It was, as far as I can recol- 
 lect, a large room. I do not recollect 
 whether there was any communication 
 between the apartment of Bergami ai>d 
 that of her Royal Highness. I recol- 
 lect her Royal Highness going to Bel- 
 lizono. She dined at an inn there. 
 Bergami sat at table with her Royal 
 Highness. He was dressed like a cou- 
 rier, with his courier's clothes. I do 
 not know whether he acted as a cou- 
 rier on that journey. He was not 
 riding on horseback but in the carri- 
 age. It was not in the carriage of her 
 Royal Highness. I believe she did not 
 dine more than once at Bellizouo. 
 She returned to the Villa Villani, and 
 then to the Villa d'Estc^ As far as I 
 can recollect this was in the month of 
 September. Upon her return her Royal 
 Highness slept at Lugano. 
 
 I recollect the disposition of tbf 
 
182 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 rooms of lier Royal Highness and Ber- 
 gami when they first arrived at the 
 Villa d'Este. You firs^t went into a 
 dark anti-room — then into a small cor- 
 ridor or passage ; then there weret wo 
 rooms, and then there was the sleeping 
 room. These two rooms communi- 
 cated' with each other. The second 
 of them communicated with the bed- 
 room. The sleeping-room of Bergami 
 communicated with the same dark anti- 
 room that I have mentioned. I have 
 never seen any other communication 
 with the Princess's bed-room. There 
 •was a small and very narrow cabinet 
 between the room of her Koyal High- 
 ness and that of Bergami ; nobody 
 slept in that cabinet. Whcii the doors 
 that opened from the dark room, which 
 I first mentioned, to Bergami's room 
 were closed, nobody could get into his 
 room but through the small cabinet. 
 The Princess sometimes retired to bed 
 at the Villa d'Este at ten, and some- 
 times at eleven o'clock. Sometimes 
 when I was in the Princess's bed room, 
 Bergami came there with her. They 
 came through the two rooms which I 
 have described. Bergami did not re- 
 main long. Sometimes he passed 
 through the rooms which I have de- 
 scribed, and sometimes through the 
 door of the little cabinet. The cabi- 
 net served as a passage. 1 undressed 
 her Royal Highness every night. Af- 
 ter I had undressed her I retired 
 •through the two first rooms. Her 
 Royal Highness often accompanied me 
 as far as the door, which she locked 
 after me. This has happened when 
 Bergami was in his own room^— never 
 when he was in her Royal Highness's 
 room. I attended her Royal Highness 
 in the morning. I entered her room 
 by the same communication which I 
 have described. Sometimes I observed 
 the door leading from her Royal High- 
 ness's room into the small cabinet half 
 open. I never saw Bergami tlien. I 
 have seen Bergami in the morning be- 
 ifore her Royal Highness was dressed, 
 at the door of his room calling for his 
 servant. I have seen her Royal High- 
 ness at the same time at the door of 
 the large room wht ! she called me. 
 She had on those occasions generally a 
 mantle of silk^, which she wbre m the 
 morning. S.ie had nothing else on. 
 Bergami had on a blue silk mantle that 
 had belonged to the Princess. At the 
 time I am now describing they were 
 
 spoke to each other. The doors were 
 open. I saw this several times. I 
 have seen her Royal Highness and 
 Bergami together on the lake on tlieir 
 first visit to the Villa d'Este. They 
 were in a small canoe — alone. I have 
 seen them walking together arm 
 in arm. I remember the little Victo- 
 rine being with her Royal Highness. 
 She called her Mamma. I remember 
 that happening before they got to the 
 Villa d'Este. Bergami usually dined 
 at our table. I remember he dined 
 once with her Royal Highness, as far 
 as I can recollect. That was before 
 the voyage to Greece. I remember 
 once her Royal Highness coming into 
 the room while we were at dinner. 
 Bergami and his mother were at the 
 table. Her Royal Highness, on that 
 occasion, sat down by Bergami. Je- 
 ronymous at that moment was not at 
 our table. He came afterwards. Her 
 Royal Highness said, as he was coming, 
 " Here comes Jeronymous, and I must 
 goi" and then she went out immedi- 
 ately. I accompanied her Royal High- 
 ness on the voyage to Greece I re- 
 member her arrival at Palermo. It 
 was on board the Leviathan. I remem- 
 ber being on the deck of the Leviathan 
 early one morning, and afterwards see- 
 ing her Royal Highness. She was in 
 her cabin on the poop. She was in 
 bed. I do not know whether Bergami 
 had been in her bedroom or not. 
 Her Royal Highness went to court at 
 Palermo. Bergami went with her. 
 I do not know whether they went in 
 the same carriage. I remember our 
 arrival at Messina. We took up our 
 residence in the neighbourhood. The 
 Countess of Oldi's room was next to 
 that of the Princess, and next to the 
 Countess of Oldi's was that of Ber- 
 gami's. There was a door in the Coun- 
 tess of Oldi's room communicating 
 witli that of Bergami's. My room was 
 beyond that. I had to pass through 
 Bergami's room and that of the Coun- 
 tess of Oldi's to the Princess's. Some- 
 times on these occasions I have found 
 Bergami in bed. Sometimes the Prin- 
 cess called me in the morning. She 
 came from the room next to Bergami's. 
 The room that opened into mine. 
 Sometimes Bergami opened tlie door, 
 and sometimes the Princess. On these 
 occasions she wore the cloak before 
 described. She had only her night 
 clothes on underneath. When Ber- 
 
 about 20 paces from each other. They garni and the Princess parted, she often 
 
EVlDJiWCE OF LOUISA DUMONT. 
 
 13^ 
 
 called him " my heart," (inoti cantr) 
 and soincliines she said, '* aflieii, my 
 dcHr friend !" I heard them embrace, 
 but I did not see it; I heard tht lu kiss 
 each other behind wc. I went on 
 board the Cloriude from Messina to 
 Syracuse. Berganii, on board the Clo- 
 rinde, wore a blue {jreat coat. I recol- 
 lect once seeing him in the Princess's 
 cabin on board that ship. The Prin- 
 cess was in bed. It was day time, and 
 she had laid down. Bergami was in 
 another bed close by. I saw them so 
 for half an hour. He was lying in the 
 bed near the Princess. At Syracuse, 
 the Princess resided a little beside the 
 port. The Countess of Oldi slept with 
 me in that house, in the same room 
 which communicated with the dining 
 room. 'IMiere was another bed-room 
 at the same side of the dining-room. 
 This was occupied by the Princess's 
 gentlemen. The Princess's bed-room 
 was at the other side of the dining- 
 room. There was a communication 
 from her room to a small staircase. 
 Bergami slept near the small staircase. 
 There was a door from the Princess's 
 bed-room. This door I heard her 
 several times lock after she entered 
 her room. I do not remember any 
 accident which happened to the Prin- 
 cess's bed at Syracujse^ or to her bed- 
 stead. From Syracuse, her Royal High- 
 ness, went to Catania. Her Royal 
 Highness resided in the town. At first 
 the Princess's bed-room communicated 
 with the saloon : my room adjoined it, 
 and next to mine was the Countess of 
 Oldi's. There was a communication be- 
 tween my room and the Princess's, and 
 the Countess of Oldi's. Bergami slept 
 on the other side of a little yard, near 
 the entrance of the house. There was 
 a door from the saloon into the yard. 
 Bergami slept in that room for some 
 days. He was ill at that time, and 
 slept in the Countess of Oldi's room. 
 1 slept in the room between the Coun- 
 tess's and the Princess's. The Prin- 
 cess, I recollect, once went to bed 
 while I was at supper. I did not see 
 Bergami then. Wlien I went to bed, 
 the door from my room to the Prin- 
 cess's was close shut ; Bergami's door 
 was shut likewise ; in the morning, I 
 »aw the Princess come out of the room 
 « of the Countess of Oldi and pass 
 through my room to enter her own bed 
 room ; this was at ten o'clock in the 
 morning; she had in her hand at that 
 lime the cushion or pillow on which she 
 
 usually slept; she was not dressed; 
 she was dressed as she was in the 
 night, after I had undressed her; I 
 It'ft her every night with a little white 
 night iruwn on; when T saw her in the 
 morning with the pillow, she had such 
 a dress on ; sometimes at night she 
 had a small silk mantle, or cloak of 
 silk ; she had that silk cloak on in ad- 
 dition to her night gown; Bergami 
 slept that night in the Countess of 
 Oldi's room in a small bed which had 
 been put into the Princess's room; lit- 
 tle Victorine slept in the room of the 
 Princess; 1 heard 1km cry there ; while 
 Bergami slept in the Count: ss's room, 
 the Countess slept in a small bed which 
 was placed for her in the Princess's 
 room. Bergami had been sleeping three 
 orfournights in theCountess's room pre- 
 vious to my seeing the Princess come 
 from thence with her pillow. I heard 
 some person open my door in the night 
 while Bergami was sleeping in that 
 room. AVhen her Royal Highness came 
 out of the room with the pillow she 
 saw me. She did not speak. She 
 looked at me earnestly, and went on to 
 her room. I had not been in the habit 
 of waiting in that room so late as ten; 
 I usually went to breakfast at. ten. 
 On the night when I heard Victorine 
 crying, 1 heard her calling " Mamma,** 
 and tiie Countess of Oldi endeavour- 
 ing to soothe her. I was up when the 
 Princess came through tny room. I 
 think my sister was also in the room. 
 She was likewise up. When her Royal 
 Highness saw me in the morning, she 
 usually said, "Good morning." On this 
 occasion she said nothing at all to me. 
 While her Royal Highness was at Ca- 
 tanik, she had her picture taken. I 
 do not know the name of the artist. 
 It was at Augusta, not at Catania, she 
 was painted. She was painted as a 
 Turkish woman, likewise as a Penitent 
 Magdalen. There was a portrait of 
 Bergami taken at Naples. He was 
 represented in his common dress, 
 Bei'gami shewed it to me. I have seen 
 another portrait of Bergami, which he 
 also shewed me; it was in the dress of 
 a Turk. I saw a portrait of her Royal 
 Highness in the possession of the 
 Countess of Oldi. There was another 
 picture of Poigami painted in Sicily. 
 I saw one of them once in a little box 
 belonging to her Royal Highness. It 
 was that in the Turkish dress. I wa§ 
 present when the Princess arranged 
 part of Bergami's dress for this por- 
 
J.:^ 
 
 XniAL OF THE OtJEEW. 
 
 Unit. Hf r Koyal Highness prepared 
 tl;c ttnban ^oi Bergami. At Catania 
 Bt r£jan>i \^a5 made kj:i/^ht of Malta. 
 , iM y\ugu5ta, he was made Baron Bc/- 
 ganii. We continued at Angustaabout 
 » month. The bed rooms of Bergami 
 and ts;e Priucess here were separated 
 fey a sjiiall passage, a little room which 
 ^body occupied. Whi-e at Aiig^iista 
 I attended her Koyaj Hij-hness to un- 
 dress. After I had retired from her 
 »oom, and gone into my own room, I 
 havf heard persons whisptiing in the 
 loom of Bergami. Beside rnakinir the 
 turban for Bergami when he wasabaut 
 Ij be painted, her Koyal Highness 
 niranged the neck of his shirt with her 
 iiafld thus(witHe.ss putting her hand to 
 hcv neck,) she opened it. The Prin- 
 ress on that occasion said, she iiked 
 bim OF it better so. I went on board 
 tke polacca, the In?Uitria, at Au- 
 gBsta. The first day or two Ber- 
 gami slept in a cabin, near a smaller 
 cabin. His sleeping place was after- 
 wards changed. Ke slept then in the 
 dining-room. Two doors led into the 
 cabin. After Bergami slept in that 
 loom one was closed. Bergami slept 
 in the dining-room as far as I recollect ; 
 her Foyal Highness slept in a cabin 
 rear to where Berganii's bed was ; the 
 Counters, of Oldi slept in a bed on 
 the ether side. Her room communi- 
 cated wdth the dining-room ; there 
 were only three sleeping-rooms there ; 
 the door of the dining-room was closed 
 at night ; I have gone into the dining 
 room when Bergami was in bed ; I saw- 
 the Princess in bed at the same time ; 
 the door of the Princess's cabin into 
 the dining-room was someli;r es shut and 
 sometimes open ; I have seen the door 
 open when the Princess and Bergami 
 {lave been in bed. I saw them twice 
 speaking together. I landed with the 
 Prin.'ess at Tunis. She tirst lodged 
 with the British cor;,suI,and afterwards 
 in a palace belonging to the Dey. 
 The bed-chambers of the Princess and 
 B( r^anii by a room, which was not oc- 
 cojiied, and a small passage ; the Coun- 
 tess of Oldi, my sister, and myself, 
 slept near to this room ; the room in 
 vhich we slept opened into the room 
 in which nobody slept. One morning 
 at Tunis I went into the Princess's 
 room, and saw Bergami there before 
 the Princess was up. Hei Royal High- 
 ufejb spoke to me, and I retired. I saw 
 the bid of the Princess, particularly 
 one moruiag while we were at Tunis; 
 
 it seemed much in disorder, it appear- 
 ed to me that two persons had slept in 
 it, I cannot say exactly ; bnt I thought 
 so frchi its appearing in disorder. I 
 went with the Princess to St. Jeaa 
 d'Acre and to Jerusalem. At Jerusa- 
 lem her Royal Kighucrs resided in a 
 house brlouging to a convent. The 
 bed-rooms of her Royal Highness, the 
 Countess of Oldi, and Bergami, opened 
 into the same gallery. I remember 
 seeing Bergami in the bed-room of her 
 Royal Highness, at Jerusalem. He 
 entered the room and threw himself on 
 the bed, in a ludicrous jesting manner. 
 He did not long remain on the bed. I 
 have seen the Princess and Bergami 
 talking together in the gallery I have 
 described. Her Royal Highness was 
 dressed in a morning cloak. She had 
 under that the same dress that she had 
 when she went to lay dowjj. I have 
 told you that Bergami slept in the 
 dining-room on board the vessel, and 
 that her Royal Highness slept in the 
 cabin till we arrived at JatJ'a. Her 
 Koyal Highness afterwards slept on the 
 deck. There vi as a tent there. In the 
 tent there were two beds. Her Royal 
 Highness slept in one of those beds. 
 I did nut assist in undressing her. I 
 do not know who did. Bergami slept 
 in the other bed. That continued 
 during the whole voyage from Italy. I 
 recollect her Koyal Highness bathing 
 onboard. Bergami attended her. Ber- 
 gami afterwards canie up upon deck 
 to call me to go and diess her Royal 
 Highness. At the time Bergami so 
 came to call me he had been with the 
 Princess nearly three quarters of an 
 hour. I saw Tlieodore take water to 
 prepare the bath : he stood at the door 
 with a pail of water in his hand. I 
 have seen her Royal Highness and 
 Bergami together under the tent, in 
 the day time, often. Her Royal High- 
 ness often worked for little Victorine 
 on board. I do not recollect that she 
 ever worked for auj- other person. 
 
 [Here the witness was permitted to 
 w ithdraw. She was handed out of the 
 house by Mr. Maule, the solicitor to 
 the Treasury, amidst a good deal of 
 laughter. On her returjj her examina- 
 tion was resumed.] 
 
 When I went do,wn, in consequence 
 of being desired to dress ber .Royal 
 Highness, I found her standing in her 
 own cabin. She had on a robe-de- 
 chamhre. I assisted in dressing her, 
 I have beca asked how the Princess em- 
 
EVIDENCE OP LOUISA DUMONT. 
 
 135 
 
 jjloyci! luMself, and stated that she was 
 vorking for the liltl* Victorine. Ber- 
 l^anii employed liliiisclf almost the 
 whole day lying down on the bed — on 
 the little bed that was placed under 
 the tent after our returu from Jaffa. 
 When I saw hira first in the morning 
 he had a kind of Greek gown on, with 
 Mide sleeves. I have seen him play 
 tricks to amuse her Royal Highness. 
 Once I saw him take the cushions, and 
 put them under his gown and walk 
 about the deck. He put them in front, 
 iler Royal Hi<,'!iness laughed. I re- 
 collect the Countess Oldi made some 
 ehirts for Bergami. The Princess 
 said she would make these shirts her- 
 self. Bergarai smiled. When we went 
 to Jerusalem, the order of the Holy 
 Sepulchre was conferred on Bergami. 
 A new order of St. Caroline was in- 
 stituted, of which he was made Grand 
 Master. He afterwards wore the 
 order. After we returned to the Villa 
 d'Este, there was an alteration made 
 in the bed-room of her Royal High- 
 ness. The communication with Ber- 
 gami's room was made more easy by 
 means of a new door. After our re- 
 turn to Villa d'Este too, a new table 
 was formed. The mother of Ber- 
 gami, his sister, Faustina, his brother 
 Lewis, and one of his cousins, dined 
 at that table. I do not recollect the 
 name of the cousins. He was ac- 
 countant of the honsehold. Lewis 
 Bergaiui was made Prefect of the pa- 
 lace. Bergami's mother, who had 
 been called " Nouna," was now called 
 " Donna Livia." I remember the the- 
 atre at the Villa d'Este. I have seen 
 Lewis Bergami act tliere. He danced, 
 dressed like Harlequin, and her Royal 
 Highness danced as Colombine. (Loud 
 laughter.) I observed the ear-rings 
 which Bergami wore when he first 
 came to the Princess. The.4e ear-rings 
 I afterwards saw worn by the Princess. 
 I observed the ear-rings worn by Vic- 
 torine. They were changed at the 
 Vjilla d'Este. I saw them afterwards 
 in the ears of her Royal Highness at 
 the same time with those of Bergami. 
 I have observed jprcsents given by her 
 Royal Highness to Bergami. Some- 
 times foid. I cannot well describe 
 them. I observed tlie cap worn by 
 Bergami when he was courier. I af- 
 terwards saw the same form of cap 
 ^om by her Royal Highness ; it was 
 of nd ."iilk, a«d was made at Naples. 
 I remember a binck silk travat of Ber- 
 
 gami'a ; he generally wore it in tlte 
 morning ; I have seen that cravat re- 
 peatedly in her Royal Highness's bed- 
 room ; I have also seen Bergami'* 
 white slippei-s in the same room. I 
 remember tlie residence of Count Pino ; 
 we visited there before we went to 
 Greece; I slept near the Princess; 
 when I lay down, I saw Bergami pas« 
 through my room; he went towards 
 the room of her Royal Highness; I did 
 not see him come out ; I fell asleep; 
 this was three weeks before the voyage 
 to Greece. I know LaBarona; it be- 
 longs to Bergami ; it consists of a 
 house and estate, the house is called 
 Villa Bergami ; there was also a far- 
 mer's house on the estate. The wit- 
 ness then described tlie proximity of 
 Bergami's bed-room to that of the 
 Princess while at the Barona. "\Ve 
 were two months at the Barona ; dur- 
 ing that time the Princess went to 
 Germany. The Princess in addressing 
 Bergami, Sometimes said, *'Tu,'' thou; 
 and Bergami simj)ly said, " Princess,** 
 to her. 'I'he servants addressed the 
 Princess as, your Royal Highness. I 
 remember some balls being given at 
 the Barona. They were attended by 
 people of low condition ; I have heard 
 Bergami and her Royal Highness telk 
 of those balls; I have myself made ob- 
 servations on the conduct of persons 
 at those balls, but nothing particniur 
 in the presence of her Royal Kiglmoss. 
 I remember Bergami once saying some- 
 thing on the subject to her Roya! 
 Highness; he related a story of what 
 happened in the house; it related to 
 some persons w ho had been to the ball ; 
 the story "was too indecent; 1 dare not 
 repeat it.; it was told by Bergami to 
 the Princess in my presence. 
 
 The SOLTClTOR-GENE«AL.— 
 Without particularly mentioning the 
 story, can you tell us generally what 
 it was ? — 1 have told you that I cannot 
 repeat it. . ! 
 
 Lord ERSKINE made some obser- 
 vation which we could not hear. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL.— 
 "Where is the Attorney-General.' 
 
 The LORD-CHATSCELLOR.— If 
 the witness cannot state more, the 
 whole of this part of her evidence 
 must be struck out. 
 
 Several PEERS.— "Sirikeit out."— 
 (A few cries of<*No.n 
 
 TheSOLICITOR GENERAL.— It 
 must be struck out, or all must be 
 stated ; there is no dotibt of that. {TM 
 
136 
 
 TRIAL OP THE QUEEN, 
 
 Attorney-General now came into his 
 place.) Tell us what the story was? 
 — It was a fulsome storj-, relating to a 
 gentleman and ©ae of the young wo- 
 men. 
 
 What did Bergami tell of what 
 passed between this person and the 
 young woman ? — He said all that had 
 passed upon the bed. 
 
 The LORD.CHANCELLOR re- 
 marked, in an audible tone, that some- 
 thing more must be given in evidence, 
 or they could not receive this. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE made a few obser- 
 vations on the very objectionable cha- 
 racter of this evidence, (hear, hear !) 
 and said, that whatever might be done 
 here, such statements with which the 
 Princess was not connected would at 
 once be rejected in all other cpurts. 
 (We regret that we could not hear dis- 
 tinctly the purport of his lordship's ob- 
 jections to the evidence.) 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL re- 
 sumed. What Bergami said was what 
 passed on the bed between the person 
 mentioned and the young woman ? — 
 Bergami related all that passed. 
 
 The House generally seemed much 
 dissatisfied with this evidence. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL.— So 
 far as I am concerned, I have no ob- 
 jection to have the whole struck out. 
 (Hear, hear.) 
 
 The LORD - CHANCELLOR — 
 Consider it struck out, and go on. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.— I have no cu- 
 riosity to hear the story ; I had just as 
 lieve get it out as not; but I have no 
 wish to press on the modesty of this 
 witness. 
 
 There was a general cry of " Strike 
 it out ;"' some voices to our left cried 
 « No." 
 
 The Earl of LAUDERDALE sug- 
 gested the propriety of receiving this 
 evidence in writing. (Cries of " No, 
 no," " Strike it out.'') It was struck 
 ;Out accordingly. 
 
 The examination then went on: — 
 While at the Borromeo we went to 
 Turin ; we remained there someday*; 
 we went to Venice twice; once bcfoie 
 the voyage to Greece, and the second 
 time before we went to Germany ; at 
 first we went to the Grand Bretagne, 
 and then moved to an adjoining house ; 
 •s far as I recollect, on this occasion 
 l)r. Holland and Mr. Burrell remained 
 at the inn: from Venice we went 
 through the Tyrol to Germany; Ber- 
 f aiui> on the journey, went from Scha- 
 
 ruitz tolnspruck for passports ; he went 
 in the morning ; we went to bed that 
 night at ten o'clock ; I slept in the 
 room of the Princess; Bergami return- 
 ed from Inspruck that night; I do not 
 recollect precisely how long after I 
 went to bed, because I had fallea 
 asleep ; I lay tin a smali bed en the floor ; 
 After Bergami arrived, her Royal 
 Highness told me I might take up ragr 
 bed, and go. Bergami came in at the 
 ^same time the orders were given ; I left 
 the room at that instant. 1 cannot ex- 
 actly say whether Bergami was in the 
 room, but I believe he was. I remem- 
 ber going to Carlsruhe. The Prin- 
 cess's bed and that of Bergami were 
 separated by a dining-room. I don't 
 know whether it was my sister or some 
 other person who made the Princess's 
 bed. I saw a woman belonging to the 
 house make Bcrgami's bed. Whilst at 
 Carlsruhe we went to the Baden baths. 
 Her Royal Highness slept there. I do 
 not remember the situation of the beds ; 
 I remember going to her Royal High- 
 ness's room and seeing a sofa there. 
 When I went in I saw the Princess. 
 Bergami was there also. It was not 
 very late, but twilight. The Princess 
 was sitting, and Bergami was sitting 
 beside her. His arm was passed round 
 her waist, and her head -was resting on 
 his arm. From Baden we went to Vi- 
 enna. We remained there three or 
 four days. Her Royal Highness did not 
 go to court, From Vienna we went to 
 Trieste in a small, very low open car- 
 riage. Bergami travelled in the car- 
 riage with the Princess. They arrived 
 at Trieste before the rest of the suite. 
 FromTrieste we went to Milan and the 
 Barona. After our return, Bergami , 
 dined with her Royal Highness. Louis 
 Bergami did so also as far as I can re- 
 collect. We went from the Barona to 
 Rome. When we got to Rome we re- 
 sided at the Royal Oak Inn. We af- 
 terwards went to a house in *he Ron- 
 connelli. The bed-rooms of the Prin- 
 cess and Bergami communicated with 
 each other. I saw Bergami once in 
 his bed-room : he was confined by in- 
 disposition. His illness lasted a few 
 days. During that time I have seen 
 hei' Royal Highness go into his room 
 more than once. From Ronconnelli 
 we went to the' Villa Grande. I 
 travelled in the same carriage with 
 her Royal Highness. Bergami was 
 with us also. He was seated between 
 ns. I recollect nothing particular that 
 
EVIDENCE OF LOUISA DUMONT. 
 
 137 
 
 passed with regard to his hand. At 
 the Villa Grande I recollect a bust ta- 
 ken other Koyal Highness and also of 
 liergami. I recollect seeing Bergami 
 in her Royal Highness'* room when she 
 was pertonning her toilette. We re- 
 mained at the Villa Grande two months. 
 We then went to Sinegaglia, to the 
 Aillu Caprini. We remained there 
 two mouths. There was a communi- 
 cation between Bergami's room and 
 thnt of her Royal Highness. There 
 was a small cabinet between, in which 
 there was a sofa. I have seen Berga- 
 mi on that sofa when the Princess was 
 there; he was lying down. Her Royal 
 Hij^hoess was sitting on the edge of the 
 sofa I have seen her Royal Highness 
 iu pantaloons at Pesaro. Bergami was 
 present, and said, '* O, how pretty you 
 are ; I like you better so." 
 
 At this time her Royal Highness's 
 neck was uncovered ; she was at her 
 toilette. I remember Bergami going 
 from Villa Caprini to Pe&aro : when he 
 parted from the Princess, they took 
 each other by the hand, and the Prin- 
 cess said, " Adieu, mon cceur! Adieu, 
 mon cher amie !" and Bergami said, 
 *' Adieu, an revoir!" I have seen a 
 money chest at Pesaro, and the key in 
 Bergami's possession ; when her Royal 
 Highness resided at Naples, prayers 
 were said in her house every Sunday; 
 this was not the case at Villa d'Este, or 
 the Barona ; nor until we were at Ge- 
 noa; and never after we quitted Ge- 
 noa ; I have seen her Royal Highness 
 go to church at Genoa ; I saw herosce 
 fall on her knees beside Bergami ; she 
 once told me she intended to have 
 masses said for the soul of Bergami's fa- 
 ther (laughter.) Her Royal Highness 
 told me that it*had been put to the vote 
 whether she should be admitted to the 
 cassino at Milan, and that it had been 
 negatived; the witness then described 
 that after the morning the Princess 
 went to the opera at Naples, she dress- 
 ed her iu the morning; after she was 
 dressed, she went into the cabinet next 
 Bergami's room, and remained there, 
 the door being shut^ nearly an hour and 
 a half. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, 
 these were all the questions he had to 
 a»k the witness. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL hoped the 
 counsel at the bar, considering the 
 great lengtlt of the examination, would 
 have no objection to postpone the cross- 
 exeunination till to morrow. This 
 
 18 
 
 should be absolutely necessary, from 
 the state in which the witness must be 
 as well as the interpreter, and even 
 their lordships, after so long and unre- 
 mitted an examination. 
 
 Mr. liROUGHAM was about to 
 speak, but was stopped by loud cries 
 of" Order, order." 
 
 THE LORD - CHANCELLOR 
 thought that the Queen's Attorney-Ge- 
 neral would not object to such a Course ; 
 as he had complained on a former 
 occasion of the great grievance of a 
 cross-examination being interrupted. 
 If the suggestion of his noble friend 
 were not adopted, that grievance would 
 unavoidably occur again in this in- 
 stance; for it was clear, that if the 
 cross-examination were begun, it could 
 not be finished to-day. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said, he should 
 certainly prefer the adjournment of 
 the cross-examination till to-morrow: 
 because, though that was a highly in- 
 convenient course, he thought it would 
 be still more dangerous to break off in 
 the middle of the cross-examination. 
 
 The House then adjourned at twenty 
 minutes before four o'clock. 
 
 FRIDAY, September 1st. 
 The House assembled as usual at 
 ten o'clock, when the names were called 
 over. Counsel being called in, the 
 further proceedings were resumed. 
 
 CROSS-EXAMINATION. 
 
 LOUISA DUMONT cross-exami- 
 ned by Mr. JOHN WILLIAMS. 
 
 I have been in England about IS 
 months. I have not been out of this 
 country during that time. I do not 
 understand English ; I understand it a 
 little, but I cannot speak it with ease. 
 I have had some lessons in English, I 
 have taken lessons in it four or five 
 months. I have spoken English some- 
 times. I can understand it better thain 
 I speak it, because I cannot speak it 
 to make myself understood easy. I 
 did not understand all the questions 
 put to me yesterday in English, but I 
 understood one put to me by the Soli- 
 citor-General. I understood some of 
 those questions which were shorter 
 than the longer ones. I ha^e not al- 
 ways gone by the same name.in Eng- 
 land. I took the name of the place 
 where 1 was born, Colombie. I never 
 took the title of the Countewi Colombie. 
 
138 
 
 TRIAL OP THE QUEEN. 
 
 I was onc« called by that name by one 
 person only. At that time I was living 
 in Fiith-street, Soho-sqnare. Before 
 that time I lived in Oxford-street; 
 there I lived three months, but I can't 
 recollect precisely how long. I don't 
 remember any person calling me Conn- 
 tess there, but I will not swear to it. 
 Mr. Cross placed me in that honse, 
 but I don't recollect by what ti tie he an- 
 nounced me. I vvill not swear that I 
 passed by the title of Countess in that 
 house: I don't recollect that I did. 
 I have been called by the name of Co- 
 lombie since I arrived in England in 
 October. I cannot swear that I did not 
 pass by the name of Countess Colom 
 hie in Oxford-street ; but I don't re- 
 collect. I never was called by the 
 title of Countess, except that once in 
 Frith-street. I accompanied the Prin- 
 cess to Naples. The second nia;ht 
 after the arrival of the Princess at Na- 
 ples she told me she was going, to the 
 Opera. In the place where we slept 
 there were two beds, a larger and a 
 smaller one, which was a travelling bed. 
 In the morning after the Princess had 
 been at the Opera, I perceived the 
 larger bed had the appearance of two 
 persons having slept in it. When I 
 was asked questions yesterday about 
 the appearance of the bed, I under- 
 stood ihem to apply to the condition of 
 the bed, wliether it was not deranged. 
 I did not understand them to apply to 
 the particular appearances ; but 1 can 
 explain them now. At Naples Jero- 
 nymous slept 'n a room, the door of 
 whichlooked into the same corridor,'nto 
 which the room door where the Prin- 
 cess slept looked. I don't know where 
 Hiy William Gell's and Mr. K. Craven's 
 servants slept. I saw them in the day 
 time ; but where they slept I know not. 
 Each of those gentlemen had one man 
 seivant. I do not know upon my oath 
 where those servants slept on any one 
 Bight at Naples. I won't swear it, but 
 I don^t at all recollect at this moment. 
 I slept myself in a little apartment 
 above her Royal Higlmess every night. 
 1 will swear that. Always alone. 
 Evci-y night, and the whole of the 
 night, I slept in my room alone. I was 
 understood aright to have said, that 
 one uijht I saw.Bergami come out of 
 his room at Xaples undressed. I don't 
 recollect exactly how soon that was 
 after we arrived at Naples. I have no 
 memory of the time when it was. I 
 was not twice with the Princess at 
 
 Naples. When I saw Berganii comin* 
 out of the Princess's room, [ wasstauai- 
 ing on one side at the door which came 
 from the Princess's room. Bergami's 
 door was nearly at the other end of the 
 corridor. , There was not a staircase 
 between the Princess's room door and 
 Bergami's ; but there was a door of a 
 little cabinet, which doo-r led to a 
 staircase, which led to my apartment. 
 On that occasion, Bergami had a can- 
 dle in his hand. I had none, because 
 I Avas on the point of going, having 
 been speaking to her Royal HigL- 
 ness, and was then waiting for her 
 permission to withdraw to my own 
 room. I did not escape through the 
 apartment of her Royal Highnes:?, 
 but through the passage which weiH 
 between the Princess's and Ber- 
 gami's apartment. In doing so, I had 
 not occasion to go towards Bergami, 
 but certainly I went nearer to hira 
 in making my escape. I can't say 
 that Bergami was coming towards me, 
 because I went away precipitately. He 
 came in a direction towards me. The 
 Ring of Naples had lent a palace to 
 the Princess on that night, that she 
 acted the part of the Genius of His- 
 tory. The King and Queen of Naples 
 were not both there. I saw the King- 
 in the room. The Queen was not there, 
 because she was indisposed. 1 saw se- 
 veral ladies of the Neapolitan court in 
 the room, but 1 don't know whence 
 they cam©. I saw there were several 
 Neapolitan ladies and gentlemen. I 
 don't know that two other ladies acted 
 in the same play with her Royal High- 
 ness, for I did not see the piece per- 
 formed. There were several costumes, 
 but I don't recollect further. I saw no 
 lady dressed up as Victory. Those 
 costumes appeared on the same occa- 
 sion that the Queen performed the 
 Genius of History. I dont recollect 
 one of them in the character of Fan*e. 
 I have no doubt that the Princess was 
 going to appear before the Neapolitan 
 ladiea and gentlemen to whom I have 
 alhided. I did not go down into the 
 room, and can't say that other persons 
 were dressed in the Turkish habit, as 
 well as the Princess. I did not see 
 Jeronymous, Sicard, or any of the 
 Princess's suite, until towards morning, 
 when I went into the ball room. I -'^ 
 can't say that before the ball began, I 
 saw some of the Princess's suite dressed 
 in the Turkish costume. In tlie jour- 
 ney by land to Jerusalem the Princes* 
 
CROSS-EXAMINATION OF LOUISA DUMONT. 
 
 139 
 
 travelled on horsebark, or on an ass, 
 as far as I recoUeGt. I travellod in a 
 palanquin with the Countess of Oldi, 
 after the Princess. AVe were sonic- 
 times before, and sometimes after her. 
 Durinj; that journey I did not wait on 
 the Countess of Old!, but I continued 
 M'ilh her in the same palanquin. My 
 sister attended on the Princess durin;^ 
 that journey ; she was alwfiys on horse- 
 back near her. When we stopped, I 
 myself was sometimes near her Koyal 
 Highness; and upon that journey I 
 waited upon her Koyal Highness; so 
 did my sister. Durinar that journf-y 
 the Princess travelled by night and 
 rested during tlie day. VV^e stopped 
 at Aum. I was under the tent with 
 the Princess there, but I don't recol- 
 lect whether I undressed her or not. 
 I don't know that the Princess was 
 undressed, but she pulled off her upper 
 habiliments; those in which she was 
 travelling; a robe in which she travel- 
 led. I don't recollect that it was any 
 tJjing more than the exterior dress that 
 she took off, and in which she traveiled. 
 Her dress was in no other way altered 
 than takinsf off the exterior habiliment 
 that I recollect. When that dress was 
 taken off the Princess did not put on a 
 night dress to repose on the sofa, that 
 I know of. When I saw her she was 
 in her white petticoat, and I don't 
 know what she put on afterwards. 
 The Princess was on tJie road during 
 that Journey a second night, when I 
 saw her in the evening, and then she 
 was in that white petticoat that I have 
 alr<>ady mentioned. When the Prin- 
 cess was about to start again, she had 
 nothing more to put on than the exte- 
 rior habiliment I have described. We 
 went on from Tunis in the same vessel 
 we had come. There were about 23 
 people altogether on board,of which 10 
 or 12 were in the suite of the Princess. 
 We took on board a Jewish Harper 
 at Tunis. The extremity of the vessel 
 was occupied by the Princess and the 
 Countess of Oldi; each had a cabin to 
 herself I occupied a cabin which 
 opened into a passage leading to the 
 dining-room. Jeronymous slept in 
 another cabin in the same direction as 
 mine. I don't know where the crew 
 •lept on the voyage, nor do I know 
 where the harper slept, but I think it 
 was near the room where we dined. 
 That was ftt the other end of the ves- 
 sel. I slept in my own birth every 
 aight during the voyage, except when 
 
 hex Royal Highness slept on the deck* 
 then I slept in her Royal Highness'* 
 cabin, and the other nights I slept in 
 my own birth. I don't know that the 
 harper slept in the place I have men- 
 tioned every night. I have heard so. 
 I don't know of my own knowledge 
 where he slept any one night, nor any 
 part of any night. Wlien at Charnitz, 
 Bergami went te procure a passport, 
 as I was told. It was in the spring 
 season, as far as I recollect. There 
 was a great deal of snow on the ground. 
 It was a small inn where we were stop- 
 ping. I was in a small bed in the room 
 of the Princess. I had not taken off 
 my clothes entirely. I believe I took 
 off no more than my gown. I don't 
 recollect how the Princess was dressed. 
 She was in bed. The Princess at 
 that time wore a blue riding-habit 
 close up to her neck, with a great 
 deal of fur about it. She also had 
 a cap when travelling. During the 
 day preceding the Princess weiit upon 
 the bed wtih that dress on. I don't 
 recollect seeing the Princess tak- 
 ing that dress off at all during the 
 time she was at that inn ; and I vvas in 
 the same room with her upon a bed. 
 We left the inn early in the morning. 
 I entered the service of the Princess 
 in 1814, and remained in it until 1817 ; 
 until tiic month of November in the 
 latter year. I was discharged from 
 th« Princess's service, and did not quit 
 it of my own accord. I Avas discharged 
 for having said something' which I af- 
 terwards admitted to be false ; in fact 
 it was not true. Before I came to 
 England I did not enter any other 
 service. My money did not fail me 
 before I came to England. I mean to 
 say that 1 was not short of money be- 
 fore I came to England, because I had 
 money in Swit'ierland which 1 might 
 have got, had I wanted it. I never 
 said to any one that I was short of 
 money, that I recollect. I have money 
 in Switzerland, and I live upon the 
 interest of it. I don't recollect ever 
 representing to any body that I had 
 saved money in the Princess's service, 
 I won't swear that I did not, but I 
 don't recollect. I was applied to by 
 some person after I left the Princess, 
 bat not very soon. It was more than 
 six montljs. I think I had been out of 
 her service about a year-; very near it. 
 I was applied to, to know what I had 
 to say respecting the Princess. I mean 
 to represent, that au application was 
 
140 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 not made to me much earlier than a 
 year after I left the Princess. No ap- 
 plication was made to me earlier than 
 a year afterwards. 1 swear positively ; 
 neither by letter, or personal applica- 
 tion, or in any other manner. As I 
 know what it is about, may I be al- 
 lowed to explain the answer ? About 
 six months after I left the Princess I 
 wrote a letter to my sister, saying that 
 an application had been made to me ; 
 but that letter was a double entendre 
 between her and me. I don't recollect 
 having said that the Princess was sur- 
 rounded with spies during the time 
 she was in Italy. I don't recollect that 
 I ever represented that to any body. 
 I won't swear that in fact I did not, 
 but I don't recollect that I did : I have 
 rather a short memory. I cannot re- 
 collect what I said, if I did say so. I 
 know Baron Ompteda. I have seen 
 him, and spoke once with him at the 
 Tilla Villani. He was staying with 
 the Princess. I had seen him but this 
 once for some days ; he had been on a 
 visit for some days, two or three. I 
 have seen him at three different places 
 on a visit to the Princess. One visit 
 was for three or four days; the others 
 "Were not of the same duration; they 
 were shorter, as far as I can recollect. 
 On one of those occasions a complaint 
 was made by the Princess of the con- 
 duct of the Baron. That was at the 
 Villa Villani, I think. I remember the 
 Princess making a complaint respect- 
 ing the conduct of the Baron, but I 
 don't know what it was about. I don't 
 know^ whether it was about keys and 
 locks ; I took no share in the complaint 
 myself. I don't remember writing a 
 letter for Mr. Hannam; I recollect 
 nothing about Jit ; I don't remember 
 writing a challenge for him to Baron 
 Ompteda. 
 
 [A letter was shewn the witness, 
 doubled down so as to shew her a line 
 or two.] 
 
 This is not exactly like my writing ; 
 I believe it to be not like mine; I do 
 not recollect writing such a letter, nor 
 do I think it is like my writing : I do 
 not think it exactly like my band- 
 writing, nor do I recollect having 
 written it. I can't decide whether it 
 iSr exactly like my character; I can't 
 say yes or no as to my belief, for I don't 
 recollect having written it. It is not 
 exactly like my writing. I cannot an- 
 swer to a thing of which I am not sure. 
 I can't positively say it is not my writ- 
 
 ing, but I do not think it is. During 
 these qu^estions, I have seen of tiiis 
 paper a line and a half. Before that, 
 I don't recollect how much more I saw 
 of it, perhaps two or ftiree lines. I 
 have seen the writing, bwt not to dis- 
 tinguish what it was. I was not near 
 enough to the counsel to see what the 
 character was. I have not half seen it. 
 It was near enough to see it, because 
 I have seen it; but I have only partly 
 seen it. I did not complain ot" it not 
 being handed nearer to me, because it 
 was put into the Interpreter's hands. 
 I now distinctly see the line and a half 
 of the letter submitted to ray view. 
 Looking at it now, I can't say dis- 
 tinctly that it is my hand-writing. As 
 to my belief, I can't say that it is my 
 writing, because it is not exactly as I 
 write. 
 
 [The letter was shewn the witness 
 doubled lengthways, so as to shew 
 one-half of every line.] 
 
 The House ordered the letter to be 
 marked, on the motion of the LORD- 
 CHANCELLOR, in order that, should 
 it be hereafter produced, it might be 
 identified. 
 
 The cross-examination then pro- 
 ceeded. — It was in November, 1817, 
 that I quitted the service of the Prin- 
 cess. At that time I knew all that I 
 have stated to the House during my 
 examination. Since then, I don't re- 
 collect that I have represented the 
 character of the Princess to -be-ot an 
 excellent description. I never recol- 
 lect haVing said, that I would lose half 
 my life if she could read my heart. I 
 may have said so, but I don't recollect 
 that I have said so. I recollect to have 
 written to my sister a letter, but I don't 
 remember what- I said. It was cer- 
 tainly in that sense. 
 
 Did you never write to your sister 
 in these' terms : — '* Oh God ! I w ould 
 lose half my life if the Princess could 
 read my heart ; she would then be con- 
 vinced of the infinite respect, the un- 
 bounded attachment, and the perfect 
 affection I have always entertained 
 for her august person ?" — I may have 
 used those expressions, because at that 
 time I was much attached to her Royal 
 Highness. 
 
 Do you recollect using these expres- 
 sions — " Her rare talents ; her charity ; 
 in short, all the perfections which she 
 possesses in so emineat a degree?"— I 
 do not recollect whether I have made 
 use of those expressions ; but I have 
 
GROSS-EXAMINATION OP I.OUtSA DUMONT. 
 
 141 
 
 v?rittento my sister, and I have spoken 
 of the maunt-r in winch the Princess 
 Iiascoiiducteil herself towards me. 
 
 Have you never used the very ex- 
 pressions vvhieh have been interpreted 
 to you?— I do not recollect exactly 
 whether I have used the same expres- 
 sions, but I have written in the same 
 sense. 
 
 Then you will not swear that you 
 have not used those very expressions ? 
 — I will not swear that I have used 
 them, but I will not swear that I have 
 not used them. 
 
 But you have used words in the same 
 sense ? — Yes. 
 
 Do you remember using these ex- 
 pressions — "How often have I seen 
 «iy hearers atfected, and heard them 
 exclaim — ' The world is unjust to give 
 so much unhappiness to one who de- 
 serves it so little, and one who is so 
 worthy of being happy!'.''" — I do not 
 tecollect whether I u»ed those expres- 
 sions. I do not remember the expres- 
 sions. 
 
 Have you not written to that effect? 
 — I have written to my sister several 
 times to that effect, and in that sense. 
 
 Will you swear tlrat you have not 
 used those very words? — I cannot re- 
 collect whether I have. 
 
 You will not swear that yon have 
 not ? — I will not swear that I have 
 made use of them or not. 
 
 But you have used expressions in 
 that sense ? — Yes. 
 
 I believe you kept a general journal 
 whilst you were with the Princess ? — 
 Yea. 
 
 Do you remember writing to your 
 sister thus : — " You can't think, Ma- 
 riette, what a noise my little journal 
 lias made ?'' — I wrote several times to 
 tny sister, but t cannot recollect 
 what. 
 
 Have you not on any occasion used 
 the words that I have put to you, or to 
 that effect? — I cannot recollect. 
 
 Will you swear that you have not? — 
 I will not swear that I have not. 
 
 Do you recollect using these expres- 
 sions — " It has been, if I may use the 
 expression, snatched at?" — I tell you, 
 i cannot recollect what I have written 
 to my sister — exactly the expres- 
 sions. 
 
 Have you used these expressions — 
 " Every one has read it, and Madame 
 Colize begged me to carry it to Lau- 
 sanne ; for thfe English who yvete there 
 Vranted to see it immediately." Do 
 
 you remember using these expressions 
 to your sister? — I tell you it is impos- 
 sible to recollect what I have written. 
 
 Do you not rememlier writing ttf 
 that effect?— Yes ; I cannot swear tc/ 
 that of which I am not perfectly sure;. 
 
 Do you know Madame Colize?-^ 
 Yes. 
 
 Did you not shew the joufnal to Ma- 
 dame Colize? — She had seen it, but I 
 don't reeoUect whether it was before 
 or afrer my return. 
 
 Did you not use these expressions — ■ 
 '' I have been delighted at it, for yo» 
 know I see in it a great deal of th« 
 best and most amiable of Princesses in 
 the world. I may s;iy in detail, her 
 sensibility, — the courtesy which she 
 has shewn, — the manner in which she 
 has been received, applauded, che- 
 rished, in all the places we have visit- 
 ed." — Do you remember writing to that 
 effect to your sister? — I recollect that 
 I have written very often to my sister 
 on the subject of her Royal Highness, 
 and to this effect; bnt I do not recol- 
 lect that it was in that sense you spoke 
 last. 
 
 Have you any doubt that yon wrote 
 to that effect, or will you swear you difi 
 not? — I will not swear that I have not 
 done it, because I do not recollect. 
 
 " You know where the Princess is 
 my subject, I am not barren : conse- 
 quently my journal is embellished with 
 ihe effusion of my heart ; my greatest 
 desire having always been, that the 
 Princess should appear to be what she 
 really is, and that full justice slioul(l 
 be done to her." Do you remember 
 writing to that effect ."* — I have writteii 
 to that effect to my sister. I was much 
 attached to the Princess at that time. 
 I wrote a great deal about her, but t 
 don't recollect the expressions. 
 
 Will you swear you did not usethas6 
 expressions ? — I will not swear, be- 
 cause I am not sure of it. 
 
 Will you swear that you did not use 
 those words ? — I will hot swear, be- 
 cause I am not sure. 
 
 Have you any doubt that you did 
 use them? — I don't recollect whether t 
 made use of them. 
 
 You have talked of douTde evtcndrty 
 have you not represented that your 
 money began to fall short? — I knoW 
 nothing of that, but I never wanted 
 money. ' 
 
 Have yon not represented to yollr 
 sister that you were getting shott '6( 
 money— that yon were getting poor r-^ 
 
w 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 I do not know whether I said it, but | 
 that never happened to me. 
 
 Have you never represented to your 
 sister that she should economise as 
 much as possible; — Yes. 
 
 And rt'trencii every superfluity ? — I 
 did represent that she ought to econo- 
 mise, as she had no fortune at home. 
 
 Did yon«write to your sister — *' Did 
 you know the rej^ret I fetd at not hav- 
 ing done so?" — I don't recollect whe- 
 ther I wrote so, but I never wanted 
 money. 
 
 Did you write — *' I do not think I 
 was guilty of extravaganc'R, but I have 
 not deprived myself of many tliinj?s 
 which were almost useless?" — How do 
 you wish me to recollect what I have 
 written? 
 
 Did you ever write to your sister to 
 this effect? — " I had almost forgot to 
 confide to you a thing which will sur- 
 prise you as much as it has done me. 
 On the 24th of last month, I was tak- 
 ing some refreshment at my Aunt 
 Clare's, when I was informed, thnt an 
 unknown person desired to deliver to 
 me a letter, and that he would not 
 trust it to any one else. I went down 
 stairs, and desired him to come up 
 into my room. What was ray astonish- 
 ment, when I broke the seal, to find a 
 proposal was made to me to set oif for 
 JLondon, under pretence of being a go- 
 verness. I was offered the kindest 
 protection, and a brilliant fortune in a 
 short time. The letter was without a 
 signature; but to assure me of the 
 truth, I was informed that I might 
 draw upon a banker for as much 
 money as I wished." 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL now 
 iHterposed, and objected to any fur- 
 ther examination aa to the contents of 
 this letter. The proper mode to pursue 
 would be to put the letter into the 
 witness's hand, to ask her if it was her 
 writing, then to offer it in evidence; 
 or if she denied that it was her writing, 
 to tender evidence to contradict her. 
 He submitted, that the letter itself 
 was thjB best evidence of its own con- 
 tents. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM and Mr. WIL- 
 LIAMS argued very ably in support 
 of the propriety of the course they 
 were pursuing. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL re- 
 plied ; au4 the subject, after some re- 
 marks from the Peers, was submitted 
 to the Judges, who decided that the 
 witness oould not be cross-examined 
 
 to the contents of a letter which %he 
 admitted to be her writing. The letter 
 itself could be the only proper evidence 
 of its contents. There was a collateral 
 question raised as to the right of the 
 counsel to read such letters in the • 
 
 course of their cross-examination, and 
 then to question the witness as to their 
 contents. Upon this the .Judges de- 
 cided, that at the request of the coun- 
 sel, letters might be read in the course 
 of a cross-examination ; but then tjiey 
 must be considered as part af the de- 
 fence, and could not be read, except 
 for the purpose of founding questions 
 upon their contents. 
 
 Thi se letters were then put into the 
 witness's hand, which bhe admitted to 
 bt her writing. 
 
 Lord LIVERPOOL now suggested, 
 that the letters should be read first in 
 Fiench, and then in English. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS begged, before the 
 letters were read, to put some further 
 questions to the witness. The an- 
 swers oif the witness amounted to this : 
 —that she had been in England thir- 
 teen months; that she was never in 
 England before. That she was exa- 
 mined at Milan on this business, in the 
 presence of the Advocate Vilmarcati, 
 and three others, of whom Colonel 
 Brown and Mr. Powell were two. 
 This was in the month of January last 
 year, and that she had not been pro- 
 raised, nor did she expect any remu- 
 neration whatever for the evidence j 
 which she had given against the Prin- 
 cess, beyond her expenses. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR now 
 suggested that the counsel might take' 
 till to-morrow to consider of the ex- 
 pediency of reading the letters to 
 which allusion had been made, sub- 
 ject to the rule which the house had 
 adopted, under the opinions of the 
 judges. 
 
 The House adjourned at a quarter 
 before five. 
 
 SATURDAY, September 2. 
 
 Previous to the resumption of pro- 
 ceedings,the LORD-CHANCELLOR, 
 adverting to the arguments urged by 
 counsel yesterday, on the part of the 
 Queen, touching- the letters imputed to 
 Madame Dumont, called the attention 
 of the House to what had passed in , 
 the Duchess of Kingston's case, on a ( 
 like question, for the purpose of shew- 
 ing that the case laid down by thf 
 
CROSS-EXAMINATION OF LOUISA DUMONT. 
 
 143 
 
 learned judges yesterday, was sup- 
 ported by that case, as reported in the 
 Sitato Trials and in the Lord's jomnals. 
 After a tow words tVoni Lord ERS- 
 KINE and Lord REDLSDyVLE, ii> 
 concurrence witlt the opinion delivered 
 by the Judges as to the rule laid down 
 upon the point in question, the case 
 proceeded, without the production of 
 the letters at present. 
 
 LOUISA DUMONT was again 
 brought to the bar, and her cross-ex- 
 amination was resumed bv Mr. J. WIL- 
 LIAMS. 
 
 Where did you go when you quitted 
 the service of the Priucess r — I went 
 to Switzerland. 
 
 To what house did you go tliere ? — 
 I have no father. I went to the house 
 of my mothor. 
 
 Has not your mother married again ? 
 — Yes. 
 
 How long did you remain with your 
 father and mother after you went 
 •there? — About a year and a month. 
 
 To what place did you go from iiome 
 afterwards ? — I went to Milan. 
 
 It was, I suppose, to be examined, 
 as you described yesterday ? — Yes. 
 
 VVhere did you go from Milan? — I 
 returned to Switzerland. 
 Home? —Yes. 
 
 Kow long did you remain at home 
 on that occasion? — Nearly three 
 months. 
 
 Where did you go to then ?— To 
 England. 
 
 Who desired you to go to Milan in 
 order to be examined? — Mr. Sacchi, 
 «n the part ofthe commissioners. 
 
 Who is Mr. Sacchi .'' — An Italian gen- 
 tleman. 
 
 What is he?— I don't know. 
 What is he besides a gentleman? — I 
 don't know what he was ; he was a 
 soldier. I do not know what he is 
 now; he was a soldier. I don't know 
 what he is at present. 
 
 Did you know of his beingan officer? 
 —No. 
 
 W here did you know liim before he 
 came for you?-- -In the house of the 
 Princess ; with the Princess. 
 
 And lie also had been in the service 
 of the Priucess ? — -Yes. 
 
 And when he came for you, I sup- 
 pose he was no longer in the service? 
 — No. 
 
 And at that time he was in the ser- 
 vice of the Milan Commissioners .? — I 
 4Jlou*t know in what service he was. 
 He was employed by them?— I kaow 
 
 be came to seek for me, but I dourt 
 know how he was employed otherwise. 
 In what year was it he went to fetch 
 you from Switzerlandi* — A year ago 
 last year. 
 
 Was it in 1 8 1 8 or 1819 ?— He arrived 
 in the month of December, 1818, and I 
 left in January, 1819. He came for me 
 a year ago, last year. 
 
 Then It was in the beginni.^g of 1819 ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 Up to that time yon had been living 
 with your father and mother? — Yes. 
 
 Then three months more with them, 
 and then you setoff for England? — 
 Yes. 
 
 How long were you at Milan? — 
 About two months. 
 
 What was given you for going to 
 Milan, any thing or nothing > — They 
 gave me nothing. They paid my 
 journey and expences as before. 
 
 After that time, when you were three 
 months at home, you maintained your- 
 self upon your own means? — Ye«. 
 
 And all the time from leaving the 
 service of the Princes^ till going to 
 Milan? — Yes. 
 
 And if I understood you right, up to 
 this hour, you have received nothing, 
 only your journey and expences? — 
 Yes. 
 
 Thatisall?— Yes. 
 
 And you have supported yourself 
 here also, I suppose ; is that so? — No, 
 they paid my expences here. 
 
 And that is all?— Yes. 
 
 Only your expences ? — Yes. 
 
 If I understood you rightly yester- 
 day, you had only been examined o«ce 
 at Milan ? — I was examiaed only once 
 at Milan, but I was several days stay- 
 ing at Mdan. 
 
 Were they for several successive 
 days, or different days ?— -Following 
 days. 
 
 Then, in fact, you were ex'^rained 
 once at Milan? — ■Yes. 
 
 Have you been examined since yon 
 came to England ? — I have not been 
 examined: I have been sworn once, 
 but not examined, about two mon(t\A 
 ago. 
 
 By whonti? — By a magistrate, whom 
 I do not know. 
 
 Where was it; what magistrate?—- 
 I do not know the magistrate, bnt I 
 was examined at the bouse of Mr. 
 Powell. 
 
 You don*t know the name of the 
 mairistrate i — No. 
 
 Were you sworn?— Y'ci. 
 
m 
 
 TRIAL OP THE QUEEN. 
 
 Was it upon the subject of the evi- 
 dence you h^ve been giving in this 
 place?— Yes. 
 
 Tliere was an i ;xaniination in writing ; 
 there was a pa-^er produced? — I have 
 seen my own } >uper. 
 
 Was it not there at the time ?— Yes. 
 
 Was it the. same paper that had been 
 written upo p at Riilan ?— I do not know 
 whether it \yas the same paper. 
 
 Was it /he deposition you signed ? — 
 I don't k ^ovv. 
 
 ^id you not si<2;n the paper upon 
 which you were sworn, at that or any 
 other time ? — I saw my deposition 
 wbeFi 1 signed it, and had it before nie 
 wbr fi I Was sworn. 
 
 5 Jld you not hear the contents of it 
 re ad then ? — ]\o; ii was not then read. 
 
 Did not that paper contain your evi- 
 ifence ?— Yes. 
 
 And- to that were you not sworn by a 
 magistrate at Mr. Powell's?— Yes. 
 
 Did he ever examine you except then 
 when you were sworn ? — No. 
 
 Thf; SOLICITOR-GENERAL here 
 said, Jiis h^arued friend was assuming 
 that Mr. Pou-ell had examined wit- 
 ness. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS here pursued the 
 crctss-examinaiaon. 
 
 Have you se en Mr. Powell since you 
 caAue to Eugla nd ?— I don't know how 
 often. 
 
 Has he see f\ you a dozen times .? — 
 Yes, perhaps so. 
 
 Had you 01 1 those occasions any con- 
 versation abc Hit the evidence you were 
 to give?— 'W e said nothing al)out my 
 evidence the ai, because I don't recol- 
 lect. 
 
 When yon; was sworn was there a 
 book you l-assCid?— Yes ; I kissed a 
 book as he j-e. 
 
 Mr. Br /ouGHAM here begged par- 
 don for . interrupting their lordships, 
 ^nd ^a ^^^ t|,jjt if tjijs information were 
 "^s<^ j)sed in a court of law, the court 
 
 would pronpuncc upon the inadaii^&i« 
 bility of the evidence under such cir- 
 cumstances. The witness here admits 
 that she was sworn out of doors to a 
 deposition by an illegal oath, if their 
 lordships would so think it. And she 
 was afterwards in private sworn by the 
 attorney in the case, so that in fact 
 the witness came into court fettered 
 and bound to a particular line of evi- 
 dence. What had been done here was 
 not only against the ordinary adminis- 
 tration" of justice, but he submitted, 
 wluther it was not directly against 
 their lordships' privileges. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS followed on the 
 same side, and enforced the same ob- 
 jection. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR was of. 
 opinion that, as the cilcumstances now 
 stood, there was no force in the objec- 
 tion. 
 
 Then, with the exception to the de- 
 position at Milan, and the swearing 
 with Mr. Powell, you had no other ex- 
 amination ? — No olher. 
 
 The counsel for her Majesty here 
 tendered the letters alluded to in the 
 cross-examination of the last witness, 
 two of which they begged might be now 
 read. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR here 
 desired that the two letters might be 
 put in. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said that they 
 were in French, and that one Interpre- 
 ter could read the translation, while 
 the other held the original. This being 
 agreed to, the Interpreter proceeded 
 to read the original. 
 
 While it was reading in French, the 
 witness requested that the names of 
 private persons be omitted. She hoped 
 they would not be unnecessarily ex- 
 posed on her account. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said he had no 
 desire whatever that those names 
 should be unnecessarily exposed. 
 
 Translation of a Letter from Louisa Dmnont to Mariette^ 
 Dated Sth. Februarj/y 1818. 
 
 " Dear and sood Mariette — Although you have not said four words in your 
 last letter, yet "I love you too well not to "pardon you for it, and it is with real, 
 pleasure that I reply to you. I hope, my dear sister, you arc perfectly happy ; 
 but I ought not to doubt it, so well as I know the real goodness of her Royal 
 Higlmess, and with all those you have any thing to do. Endeavour always to 
 deserve such kindness, by continuing the same way of life which has procured 
 it for you, that experience may not be useless to you. Keep always before 
 your eyes the trouble which arises from rashness a^d inconsistency; you have 
 lately had sufficient proofs o( that. 
 
LOUISA DUMONt's LETtER, l45 
 
 " You will, no doubt, be very desirous of knowing what is my situation in 
 <iur little country ; I assure you, my dear, I have been received In such a manner 
 as you would have no i(lpa of. I have been every where sought after, and t%* 
 celved with the greatest cordiality at Lausanne, at Morgcr, and at Cassonay. 
 1 passed a whole month at the last town, where every possible amusement was 
 procured for me. You know how fond I was of sledge-riding; well, every day 
 we made a party for it. At the beginning of the new year we had a delightful 
 marked ball ; last week two more, the best that have been seen in this towHj 
 and a number of other evening parties given by a friend of mine ; in short, 
 every day brought some new invitation. Conceive to yourself how, in the 
 midst of all these numberless pleasures, I was sad and silent, every one quizzed 
 me on my indifference : T, who used to be so gay before my departure. I was 
 not insensible of my dullness; but, spite of all my endeavours, could not get 
 the better of it. 
 
 " Can you not, my dear, divine the cause of all my sadness? Alas ! was it 
 not th" regret of having quitted her Royal Highness, and of knowing that she 
 suspected my character,^id taxed me with ingratitude? Oh, God ! I> would 
 surrender half my life, could she but read my heart, she wonld then be con- 
 vinced of the infinite respect, the unlimited attachment, and the perfect affec- 
 tion I have always entertained for her august person. 
 
 '* I .should have wished, my dear Maviettc, to have written to the Count, to 
 thank him for the kindness he has shewn me, but I was afraid to trouble him ; 
 tell him, one line, if he weuld but have the goodness to write to me, would af- 
 ford me a little tranquillity, since it would make me hope for pardon. 
 
 " I was afraid her Royal Highness would be displeased at the course I have 
 taken in my journey. Judge then of my happiness when I learnt that she was 
 not at all angry at' it ; but, on the contrary, gave me leave to take it. In 
 truth, this pretence has been very useful to me ; for you are sufficiently ac- 
 quainted with the world to suspect that I have been assailed with questions, 
 particularly by great folks, for I am not vain enough to suppose that I have 
 been sought after only on account of my beautiful eyes, and that a little cu- 
 riosity has had no part in the desire to see me. Ah ! why was not her Royal 
 Highness at my side? She would then have found if I were ungrateful. 
 
 ** How often, in a numerous circle, have I,with enthusiasm, enumerated her 
 great qualities, her rare talents, her mildness, her patience, her charity ; in 
 short, all the perfections which she possesses in so eminent a degree. — How 
 often have I seen my hearers affected, and heard them exclaim, that the world 
 is unjust to cause so much unhappiness to one who deserves it so little, and 
 who is so worthy of being happy. 
 
 *' You cannot think, Mariette, what a noise my little journal has made; it 
 lias been, if I may use the expression, snatched at. Every one has read it. 
 
 • • begged me to let her carry it to Lausanne : all the Knglish who were 
 
 there wanted to see it immediately. I have been delighted at it, for you know 
 I say in it a great deal of the best and most amiable Princess in the world. I 
 relate in detail all the traits of sensibility and of generosity which she has shewn ; 
 the manner in which she has been received, applauded, cherished, in all the 
 places we have visited. 
 
 ** You know when the Princess is my subject, 1 am not barren; conse- 
 
 3uently my journal is embellished with the effusion of my heart, my greatest 
 esire having always been that the Princess should appear to be what she 
 really is, and that full justice should be rendered to her. I assure, that al- 
 - though distant, it is not less my desire, and that I shall endeavour with leu], 
 that such may be the case, and as far as my poor capacity will allow. You 
 may judge I shall not make a merit of this, since she will be ignorant of it, and 
 even suspects me of ingratitude ; but it will be only to content my hearty it^hich 
 would find a sweet satisfaction in this charming success. 
 
 " But I had almost forgotten to confide to you a thing which will surprisii 
 yon as much as it has me. The 24th of last month I vt^as taking some refresh- 
 ment at my aunt Clara's, when I was informed an unknown person desired to 
 deliver me a letter, and that he would trust it to no one else. I went down 
 stairs and desired him to come up into my room ; judge of my astonishment 
 when I broke the seal, a proposal was made to mc to set off for London, under 
 
146 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 {he pretence of being a governess. I was promised high protection, and a bril- 
 liant fortune in a short time. The letter was without signature ; but to assure 
 m% of the truth of it, I was informed I might draw on a banker for as much 
 money as I wished. Can you conceive any thing so sin£;ular? Some lines 
 escaped from the pen of the writer discovered to me the cheat, and I did not 
 hesitate to reply in such terras as must have convinced him I was not qnite 
 a dupe. Notwithstanding all my efforts, I could draw no eclaircissement from 
 the bearer : he acted with the greatest mystery. 
 
 " You see, my dear, with what promptitude the enemies of our generous 
 benefactress always act. There ndust be spies continually about her ; for no 
 Sooner had I left Fesaro, than it was known with all its circumstances, in the 
 capital of Europe. — They thought to find in me a person revengeful and ambi- 
 tious; but, thank God, I am exempt from both those failings, and money 
 acquired at the expense of repose and duty will never tempt me, though I 
 ^ould be at the last extremity. The Almighty abandons no one, much less 
 tho&e who act agreeably to him. A good reputation is better than a golden girdle. 
 
 '* Since I have introduced the subject of money, my dear sister, I must give 
 you some advice. Economize as much as possible, retrench every superfluity ; 
 did you but know the pain I feel in not having done so ! I do not think I ever 
 was guilty of extravagance, but I have not deprived myself of many thin.':s 
 which were almost useless. You know that every one here, as elsewhere, fan- 
 ciefi the Princess of Wales throws her money, out of the window, and supposes 
 me possessed of a large fortune ; from a species of self-love, and to prove still 
 more her generosity, I do not try to undeceive any one ; consequently, though 
 I have great need of money, I don't dare yet to ask ray guardian for any. I 
 know how to be moderate, and am at no expense. I have often reflected, that 
 if I had always acted in the same way, I should not be in the situation in which 
 I am. 
 
 " Every one should economize as much as possible ; one can gain by no 
 other means. Profit by the lesson I have just given you; be asi?ured it will 
 
 be salutary to you, for I speak from experience. M • has not sent the 
 
 packet; I wrote him at Milan and at Paris. I expect his answer one of these 
 days. If it should be lost, it will be very disagreeable, as the cloth cost a 
 great deal. If I had known it should not have been purchased, as my nioUier 
 had a good spencer, and might very well have done without it. I regret the 
 velvet very much, as I want it for my hat ; besides we did not get that either 
 for nothing; and three louis are well worth lamenting, without reckoning the 
 other baubles. Money will not come by whistling for it. A sous here and a 
 sous there soon make a livre, and twenty four livres make a Napoleon. You 
 see I am become an adept in arithmetic. I will answer for it, however, that 
 
 Mr. will make all good, if he has lost any thing. I shall shew him no 
 
 favour, and have written to him in such k manner as sufficiently shews I am 
 not very well satisfied with his negligence. 
 
 '* But, my dear Mariette, I perceive I have almost finished my letter with- 
 out speaking of our dear parents. Our good mother is tolerably well, though 
 her asthma, and complaint in her stomach torment her sometimes, but nothing 
 compared to what she has suffered this sumn-er; my father is very well ; Hen- 
 rietta is always charming. I give her every day lessons in writing and read- 
 ing. She sews very well, and rcpassie as well ; she has already worked several 
 frills for me, and some gowns, with which I am very well satisfied. Her 
 desire of travelling is the same ; pray try to get her a situation, I am convin- 
 ced she will give you no cause to regret it. She is much altered for the bettei ; 
 she is gay, and always in good humour, mild, obliging, in short, of a character 
 to make herself beloved wherever she goes ; for she has an excellent heart, 
 and knows how to be contented in all situations. Margaret is entirely amia- 
 ble, of a pretty figure, and so lively, that she makes one half dead with laugh- 
 ing. Louisa is very genteel ; I assure you, dear Mariette, they are all changed 
 very much for the better, and I am quite contented with them. 
 
 " I have this month past in my favourite chamber at Colombier, where 
 some repairs have been done, for example, a good chimney, and a small cabi- 
 net, wherein I sleep. I make little excursions often in our environs ; ^ixd 
 ficquently recefve visits, which afford me amusement. 
 
LOUISA DIIMONt's LETTER, 147 
 
 '* I think I hear you say, * Well, dear Louisa, what do you mean to do? 
 
 ^^ out you marry ? What does — do ?' I will tell you word for word. I 
 
 vvt ry day feel more and more repugnance to marriage. has done all 
 
 in his power to induce me to accept a heart, which, he says, he has preserved 
 for me these seven years ; — what heroical constancy, and little worthy of the 
 rn^Q in which we live ! ! I shall not, however, be dazzled by it; and, although 
 lie be rich, charming, and amiable, I do not wish to retract the refusal I gave 
 hiin four years ago. 
 
 " If this amuse you, I will tell you of several other lovers, not less desirable 
 than he. I am very foolish, perhaps, to refuse them ; for they are infinitely 
 better than I am- perhaps I may one day repent it. You know the proverb, 
 * He that will not, &c.' But I cannot do otherwise. Recent events have 
 created in me a sort o-f antipathy to men, I can have no connexion, no com- 
 munication with any of them — 1 love and cherish sweet liberty alone, and wish 
 to preserve it as long as I can. 
 
 '* Dear Mariette, I conjure you, imitate my example, and never think of 
 marrying. My mother and I forbid it, as long as her Royal Highness shall 
 wish to keep you in her service. You can have no greater happiness. It is 
 impossible ! Beware of forming any attachment — you are too young — remain 
 free. Be assured you will be a thousand times more happy, 
 
 '' I do not recommend prudence to you, because I know you too well to dis- 
 trust you ; but although It may be said of me that I would die rather than 
 abandon it for an instant, and deviate from the strict path of virtue, the most 
 precious good we possess, yet I have known some persons suspect my conduct. 
 But I have God and my own conscience for witnesses. Are they not sufficient 
 for my peace ? No one can deprive one of that. No, I have nothing to 
 reproach myself with on that head, and you know therefore, I can give you 
 such advice as you sliould follow, especially as it is also that of our mother. 
 
 " Dear sister, if you dare, place me at the feet of her Royal Highness, be- 
 seeching her to accept my humble respects; do not fail, I entreat you, when 
 she speaks of me, to endeavour to convince her my repentance is still the same, 
 that I conjure her to restore me to her favour. Tell me if her Royal Highness 
 is still so enraged against me, and if there is not any appearance of a pardon ; 
 but tell me always the truth. Try also to persuade her Royal Highness that I 
 am, and always shall be so entirely devoted to her, that no sacrifice I could 
 make for her would appear too great, and that she may even dispose of my life, 
 which shall for ever be consecrated to her service. Tell the Baron also that 
 I am very sensible of his remembrance, and beg hioi to accept the assurance 
 of my perfect acknowledgement. Embrace for me the charming Victorine ; 
 repeat also my thanks to the Count, and assure him I shall never forget his 
 kindness. Remember me to the Countess, Madame Livia, and Mr. William, 
 begging them to receive the assurance of my sincere friendship. 
 
 " If I were to tell you all those who send you salutations, I should want two 
 more pages, for every one is interested for you, and they never cease to wish 
 for your happiness. Believe, however, the most sincere wishes are. made 
 by us. 
 
 " You will tell Mr. Jeronymus that John is quite wdl, and that Mr. is 
 
 very well pleased with him in all respects. His board is not paid for ; and tell 
 Mr. Jeronymus, on the receipt of this letter, I beg he will immediately send 
 
 an order to for six months pay, and address it to me. He must not 
 
 delay, for I have no money. 
 
 ^' Vou will not do wrong if you send me at the same time, the two Napo- 
 leons, to make up the 25 if you can. It is I who send you the gown ; instead 
 of lace you should trim it with muslin. Make my compliments to Mr. Jerony- 
 mus, and tell him the first time I will give him more particulars respecting his 
 son, because I hope to have more room. I wish very much to know how ink is 
 made with that powder which he gave me j and what he has done with the 
 two pictures I sent him at the Villa d'Este. 
 
 " Adieu, dear and good sister. We embrace you cordially. A reply at 
 once if you please. — Your sister. 
 
 ''Qth Februajy, 1818. " LOUISA DUMONT." 
 
 *' A Madmioi$eUe Madfmoiselii Mariette JSron, a Pesaro," 
 
148 TRIAL OF THE QUEEV. 
 
 The following letter was tlieu read in the same manner with the former :— 
 
 TTanslcttionof a Letter from Mademoisselle Dumontlothe Queen , 
 dated 16th of November, 1817. 
 
 " It is on my knees that I write to my generous benefactress, beseeching her 
 to pardon my boldness,but I cannot resistmy feelings. Besides. I am convinced 
 that if her Koyal Highness knew the friglitfiil state into wliif h I am plunged, 
 she would not be offended at my temerity. My spirits cannot support my 
 misfortune ; I am overwhelmed by it, and am more than persuaded I «hall 
 sink under it. I feel a dreadful weakness; a mortal inquietude consumes me 
 internally, and I do not feel one moment of tranquillity. A crowd of reflec- 
 tions " on the past goodness of her Royal Highness," and " on my apparent in- 
 gratitude" overwhelm me. May her Royal Highness deiyn to take pity on 
 me ; may she deign to restore me to her precious favour, wljich I have unhap- 
 pily lost by the most deadly imprudence ; may I receive that soft assurance 
 before I die of grief; she alone can restore me to life. 
 
 " I dare again to conjure, to supplicate, the clemency and compassion of her 
 Royal Highness, that she will grant me the extreme f ivoiir of destroying those 
 two fatal letters; to know that they are in the hands of her Royal Highness, 
 and that they will constantly bear testimony against my past conduct, kills 
 me. The aversion which I have merited on the part of her Royal Highness; 
 instead of diminishing, would be increased by reading them. 
 
 *' I permit myself to assure her Royal Highness, that it is only the granting 
 of these two favours which can preserve my life, and restore to me that repose 
 which I have lost. My fault, it is true, is very great and irreparable ; but love 
 is blind — how many laults has he not caused even the greatest men to commit ? 
 — I dare flatter myself this is a strong reason why her Royal Highness should 
 condescend to grant me the two favours which I take the liberty of asking of her. 
 "I allow myself to recommend to the favour and protection of her Royal 
 Higlmess my sister Mariette, and also her who is in Switzerland. Her Royal 
 Highness gave me to understand that, perhaps, she might be allowed to sup- 
 ply my place. The hope of this alleviated my distress. It would bo an act of 
 charity, for my sisters have only moderate fortunes, and in our small poor 
 country they are not to be acquired. I am certain her Royal Highness would 
 have no cause to repent her great goodness and extreme kindness towards a 
 young girl who has always gained the esteem and friendship of all to whom 
 she has been personally known. 
 
 *' I cannot sufficiently thank her Royal Highness and the Baron for their 
 kindness in sending Ferdinand to accompany me; he has paid me all the at- 
 tention, and taken all the care of me iniaginable; I know not how to acknow- 
 ledge so many benefits ; but I will endeavour by my future conduct to merit 
 them, and to regain the favourable opinion which her Royal Highness 
 entertained for me during the days of my good fortune. 
 
 "It is with sentiments of the most entire submission, and the most perfect 
 devotion, that I haye the honour to be, her Royal Highness's most obedient 
 servant, 
 
 " Riminiy 16lh Novmher, 1817. f LOUISA DUMONT." 
 
 While the Interpreter was reading 
 these letters, he accidentally men- 
 tioned two or three names stated in it, 
 •when he was instructed by the Lord 
 Chancellor, that when he came to the 
 name of any person, he was to stop and 
 ascertain if the counsel would permit 
 such name to be passed over in silence 
 
 Some Peers observed, with reference 
 to the names already mentioned, that 
 though omitted in their lordships mi- 
 |iiites, they might fin4 their way into 
 
 greater publicity, throngh the means 
 of the public press, the reporters of 
 which vsere present, and doubtless 
 heard the names as they were uttered. 
 It was then suggested, that the re- 
 porters should be directed to omit the 
 private names.- 
 
 The LORD-GHANCELLOR sai * 
 lie had no knowledge of the presence 
 of such persons as were alluded tO; 
 but, that if any person answering that 
 description had foujid their way be? 
 
CROSS-EXAMINATION OF LOUISA DUMONT. 
 
 149 
 
 ?ow the bar, and were, in breacli of 
 their lordships' privifegcs, to publish 
 any occmcme that took place in that 
 House, Avliich tlitir lordships had par- 
 ticularly signified their intention, onj^ht 
 not to be published, such persons 
 would do so at their peril. 
 
 The letters being already read in 
 French, a translation into Enjflish was 
 put into the other Interpreter's hand 
 to be read. 
 
 Earl GREY thoug:ht it necessary to 
 suggest that time should be allowed 
 the translator to verify the translation. 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR or- 
 dered that both Interpreters should 
 examine the lettters together, and af- 
 terwards be prepar»"d to verify the 
 translation offered to their lordships. 
 
 Lord KENYON submitted whether 
 it would not be well to afford time for 
 the inspection of the letters. He cer- 
 tainly, though he understood French, 
 could not catch the meaning of a great 
 manv sentences while it was readinjr. 
 The SOLICITOR GENERAL said 
 that both Interpreters should have an 
 opportunity, by-and-bye, of comparing 
 the originals and the translation, and 
 verifying the documents. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR di- 
 rected, that in the interim, the witness 
 should be allowed a chair. 
 
 One Interpreter then proceeded to 
 read over the translation, while the 
 Interpreter for the crown held and 
 perused the original. 
 
 After the perusal of the second letter 
 Mr. WILLIAMS asked, Who is the 
 conuscl she alludes to in the first let- 
 ter? — Sciapini. 
 
 Was he at that time in the service 
 of the Princess? — Yes. 
 ' Ask her whether the journal of 
 which she has spoken did not comprise 
 the whole time during which she was 
 in tJie service of the Princess ? 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL ob- 
 jected to this question. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS contended for his 
 right to put it ; and, after the Judges 
 had consulted for a few minutes, the 
 LORD CHANCELLOR said, the 
 Judges are of opinion it may be put. 
 The question was repeated as above. 
 — Answer, I do not recollect whether 
 the whole time. 
 
 The greatest part of the time ? — 
 Yes. 
 
 Who is the Madame Olivier alluded 
 to in that letter? — A Swiss lady resid- 
 jiDg at Lausanne, near the residence 
 
 of my fatjier and mother ; she is not 
 a relation, but an acquaintance; she 
 always said the letter she sent her 
 sister was a double entendre. 
 
 Is it true, or is it not, that a person 
 unknown, did desire to deliver you 
 (consigner) K letter, to deliver it? — If 
 I had permission, I'd explain every 
 thing respecting that letter. 
 
 I ask you, is it true or not, that a 
 person unknown, desired to deliver 
 you a letter? — I have once received a 
 letter without a signature. 
 
 Was that a letter delivered by an 
 unknown person when you were at 
 your Aunt-Clara's ? — I do not recollect 
 whether at my Aunt Clara's, but it 
 was sent to me at Colombier. 
 
 Did an unknown person deliver you 
 the letter there or elsewhere? — I don't 
 remember when it was given me, 
 
 I don't ask you that, but I ask yo« 
 (lid any unknown person deliver you a 
 letter? — I recollect I received a letter 
 at Colombier, but I don't know who 
 delivered it. 
 
 Are you now speaking of that letter 
 referred to in the letter just read? — 
 It^was a letter without a signature, 
 bt'it it did not contain what I (the 
 Interpreter) have said. 
 
 Then it is true you received a letter 
 at your aunt Clara's, saying that you 
 should go to London? — I do not re- 
 collect if I received it at ray aimt 
 Clara's. 
 
 Did you receive such a letter at all? 
 —I received a letter like that, but it 
 had not the contents exactly of what 
 I (the Interpreter) read. 
 
 Did that letter contain any proposal 
 to go to London ? — I wish to explain 
 that letter. 
 
 Answer this, and yon can explain as 
 yon please after. Did you not receive 
 a letter from an unknown person, say- 
 ing you should go to London? — I re- 
 ceived a letter, which said to me, if 
 I'd go to London I should be placed as 
 a governess, if I were provided with 
 letters of recommendation. 
 
 Have you any thing to add to that ? 
 — Yes, I wish you'd have the goodness • 
 to let me say why I wrote that letter. 
 I wish to go back to the time when I 
 was dismissed from her Royal High- 
 ness's service. In the evening I was 
 dismissed from her Royal Highness, I 
 was to start on the following morning, 
 and M. Berganii came into ray room 
 and said — 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS.— Any conversar 
 
150 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 lion with Rerganii, in the absence ot 
 tlie Hj-iiicefs, cannot be received. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL, for 
 t!ie purpose of explanation, thought it 
 iiiiftht. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLORthonght 
 it might. 
 
 Witness proceeded : — M. Bergami 
 »aid her Royal Highness wished to dis- 
 miss r.jy sister on iny account. I said, 
 J was sorry for that, as my sister hav- 
 ing no fortune, could not live at home. 
 I begged of M. Bergami to speak to 
 the Princess in order to keep my sis 
 ter: he promised to do so, and at the 
 same time advised me to write a letter 
 10 her Royal Highness, because she 
 was much offended against me, to re- 
 commend my sisler, and ask her par- 
 don, I wrote a letter at Pcsaro, and 
 the following morning I paited. At 
 the same time, my sister recommended 
 to me to write nothing that could pre- 
 judice or hurt her. I promised, on 
 the contrary, I would do every thing 
 that could make her keep her place. 
 I wrote also from Rimini and to my 
 sister at several other times. I al- 
 ways spoke much in favour of her 
 Royal Highness, because I knew tiiey'd 
 be intercepted. At the same time 
 that I wrote to my sister that letter, I 
 formed the idea of quitting Switzer- 
 land and coming over here to England. 
 At the same time I received infbrnja- 
 tion to set off. I was told I could be 
 placed out as governess, if I had letters 
 of recommen<iatioiv. At the same time, 
 being afraid her Royal Highness would 
 dismiss my sister, I wrote to my sister, 
 and dared not write freely for fear it 
 would be seen. I said to my sister, 
 what was read was only to let her 
 know, if she was dismissed there, I 
 would find means of placing her here, 
 and pay her journey. If I wrote again 
 to her, she feared the Princess would 
 read the letter, and I wished to cou- 
 %ince her Royal Highness I would say 
 nothing against her, even in England 
 In several private conversations, al- 
 though many questions were put tt) me, 
 I avoided saying what took place at 
 the house. These are my reasons for 
 writing that letter to my sister. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS.— Ask her if she 
 Las given a full explanation ? — I have 
 said so to my sister to pay the jourHey. 
 The reference to the banker is to say, 
 tha^ I wish to take the money now with 
 MY guardian, and place it here. They 
 told me the interest ^ould be double. 
 
 If I had tome of it here for myself 
 or my sister, I could make ose of it. 
 
 Ask her if she has any more last 
 words— any further explanation.?— No 
 further. 
 
 Don t let her be in a hurry ; let her 
 take her time; now, any further ex- 
 planation to give? — (After a pause) I 
 wish by that to convince the Princess, 
 thou;;h I shall have questions put to 
 me, money would not tempt me. 
 
 Now, have you any other explana- 
 tion ? — I am to say also that I felt a 
 great degree of attachment to her 
 Royal Highness, for her great kind- 
 ness to me while in her house. 
 
 Any more? — I can't remember en- 
 tirely all. I saw the letter last night ; 
 I saw two letters; only saw the date of 
 that from Colombier. I made im) ob- 
 servation on the other. 
 
 When you went from this place last 
 night (I don't ask you the names, but) 
 who accompanied you ? — A lady ; one 
 of my friends. 
 
 Do you mean to represent that no- 
 body else saw you, since you were ex- 
 amined here last night? — I have seen 
 the people of the house and the friend 
 who accompanied me ; I don't know 
 the name. 
 
 Did you delay near this place, where 
 we are, before you went home last 
 night ? — I went directly home. 
 
 Directly; did you not stay some- 
 where or other before you went to the 
 
 place you reside 
 
 -In going out 
 
 hence 1 went direct home, without 
 waiting — 
 
 The LORD - CHANCELLOR.— 
 That's not an answer; put it before 
 she began to go ? 
 
 Mr. WILLIxVMS.— I am not asking 
 her whether she went straight home, 
 but I am asking her, if she did not stay 
 somewhere before slie began to go 
 home? — I remained a minute in a room 
 above here. 
 
 A minute — how long? — I don't re- 
 collect exactly. 
 
 Do you mean to represent you did 
 not stop half an hour in the room 
 above stairs ? — I will not swear I may 
 not have remained there half an hour. 
 
 But you swear you did not remain 
 an hour ? — I can't swear as to the time 
 I remained there. 
 
 What did you mean to say just now, 
 when you said you did not remain there 
 more ithan a minute ? — I meant I did 
 not remain there long. 
 
 Now, in order to haAW some notion 
 
CROSS-EXAMINATION OP LOUISA DUMONT. 
 
 151 
 
 of that. wHl you swear you did not 
 remain there twohsursf— I can't swear 
 as to wliar time. 
 
 Do y<m mean to represent that no- 
 body saw yoM h«t the person who ac- 
 companied yon home ? — I saw the lady 
 who .ueoinpnwied mc home, and the 
 gentleman who came to fetch me. 
 
 Does shcfmean to represent she has 
 not been thinking of this letter since 
 she was examined in the afternoon of 
 yesterday?— I have «ot passed m.y 
 time in speaking of it; I have been 
 reflect ins;. 
 
 Do you mean to say yo« have not 
 been reflecting on it all the time? — 
 On my arrival at home I retired to my 
 bed. , 
 
 What <Ioes she mean by the capital 
 of Europe in that letter? — It is so long 
 since I wrote that letter, that I cannot 
 recall what I meant. 
 
 Well, having heard that letter read 
 in French and in English, don't you 
 ♦.now what you meant by the capital 
 of P!urope? — ^It is impossible for mc at 
 such a distance of time to recollect 
 wlmt I meafll by all the words. It is 
 so long since I cannot recollect. 
 
 By the word capital of Europe in the 
 letter of the witness just read, vshe 
 meant Lausanne or Colombier; not 
 that she considered that the capital of 
 Knrope, Init she was in the habit of 
 calling it the capital of Europe in writ- 
 ing to her sister or her friends; she 
 ■was in the habit of writing to them in a 
 double sense. Slie does not know that 
 she had any other meaning for that ex- 
 pression. The expression in her letter, 
 stating that she wanted money was 
 true. She had no money at home, but 
 if she wanted money, she could have it 
 from her guardians. Perhaps she had 
 got money at home. She was not sup- 
 ported with money by her father or 
 mother when she was in the service of 
 the Princess. And after she quitted 
 the Princess's service she does not re- 
 collect that she was assisted with 
 money by any body. She did not re- 
 collect that any one advanced her any 
 money. No one gave her any money. 
 She had a sister beside Mariettc to 
 whom she was much attached. She 
 wished to place that sister in the ser- 
 vice of the Princess, because her sister 
 wishftd to travel, and had often spoken 
 to the-^tness to place her out. Her 
 age at that time was nineteen. Wit- 
 ness's father lives at Colombier, and is 
 an {igricuiturist) a farmer. He subsists 
 
 from the produce of liis own estate.' 
 It was a small demesne that he cultn- 
 vates himself. He has no other sub- 
 sistence but from his farm : he main- 
 tains himself by his daily labour. He 
 lives in a small house, and has her 
 mother and two daughters living with 
 him. 
 
 The witness was then re-examined 
 by the SOLICITOR GENERAL,— 
 In substance she stated, tliat her sister 
 was still in the service of the Princess ; 
 that she had herself been turned away 
 from the service of her Royal Highness 
 in consequence of the interception of 
 two letters which she had written to 
 Mr. Sacchi, and in which it was thought 
 she meant to insinuate that her Royal 
 Highness loved him to excess. She 
 did not mean literally to say that her 
 Royal Highness loved him, but that 
 she esteemed him as much as any other 
 person in the house. Bergami had 
 accused her of passing the night with 
 Sacchi, but it was not true, for she had 
 slept with her sister. Besides the 
 letters produced, she wrote other let- 
 ters to her sisttr. Her sister never an- 
 swered her. Some other person in the 
 name of her sister wrote to her, but 
 she could not say who that person was. 
 The letter produced was the hand- 
 writing of the Princess. The reason 
 she went by the name of Colombier 
 was, because she^vished to be private. 
 Mr. Jeronymus had called upon her 
 several times since the Queen's arrival 
 in England. 
 
 The witness next nnderwcnt a Icrtig 
 examination by tlie PEERS.— She d<v 
 scribed the marks Oji tlie larger bed in 
 the Princess's room at Naples, on the 
 morning after the second night of hrr 
 arrival, in the most unequivocal terms. 
 She called the dress worn by the Prin- 
 cess, at the Theatre of St. Carlos, as 
 monstrous, only because it had no 
 shape at all. She denied, although in 
 her letter to her sister she stated the 
 fact, that she kiv*w her Royal High- 
 ness to be furrounded by spies and 
 enemies. She had heard this from her 
 Royal Highness herself. The supposed 
 offer of a brilliant fortune in England 
 was a fiction ; and her reason for writ- 
 ing in this manner was for fear the 
 Princess, or Bergami, should open and 
 read her letters. 
 
 T'lie witness was then permitted to 
 withdraw for a few minutes; she re- 
 mained out nearly half an hou r. Upoa 
 her retnrn the enamiuution was it- 
 
152 
 
 TklAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 sumed, and, in answer to further ques- 
 tions, .she said that the morning she 
 set out she agreed with her sister to 
 put private marks on their correspon- 
 dence, which should be intelligible to 
 each other. She received only one 
 letter from her sister ; but she could 
 not say whether it had any of the 
 marks agreed upon between them. 
 She said ihat her sister could under- 
 stand the double meaning which was 
 agreed upon in the letter ; but on being 
 further questioned to explain why, she 
 said she was unable to recollect the 
 l-eason. She certainly received a 
 letter to come to England and fill a 
 situation as governess. The invitation 
 was anonymous — the letter had no sig- 
 nature; but as far as she recollects, 
 it was in French. It was delivered to 
 her, but she forgot by whom, nor could 
 she tell whether it came by the post, 
 or otherwise, or what date it bore. 
 In point of fact, she did not know by 
 whom the letter had been addressed 
 to her; she could not now say if she 
 had had then an idea of the person 
 who sent it to her, nor did she recol- 
 lect whether she had sent any answer 
 to the letter or not. In her letter she 
 wished to speak of the excessive good- 
 ness of her Royal Highness. She was 
 sincere in the greatest number of the 
 passages in that letter. She does not 
 recollect if in all. The attachment to 
 her Royal Highness had ceased in con- 
 sequence of something which was said 
 in the house of her Royal Highness 
 concerning her. She did not come to 
 this iiouse to give her evidence in con 
 sequence of what had beeai said. Mr. 
 Sacchi asked her to give her evidence; 
 she came to tell the truth. 
 
 After some further questioning, the 
 Hwise adjourned at ten minutes after 
 four. 
 
 MONDAY, September 4th. 
 The translations of Louisa Dumont's 
 letters were put in, the Interpreter for 
 the crown and for the Queen haviujf 
 asrreed as to iheir accuracy. 
 
 FOURTEENTH WITNESS. 
 
 [Ll'Igi Golcini.] 
 
 LTJIGI GOLDINI was then called 
 in and examined by Mr. PARK. His 
 deposition was as follows : 
 
 I am a native of Biglio on Lake Co- 
 tno. I am a masoii. I h^vt worked 
 
 at the Villa d'Este for fourteen or 
 fifteen days. I was employed at the 
 house of Gaugiari ; he was an agent at 
 the Villa d'Este to the Princess, i re- 
 member being employed at his house 
 upon a cornice. I went to look for 
 him at the Villa d'Este : 1 went up 
 stairs : i opened a door and saw a great 
 many doors,^ one of which I opened. 
 I then saw the Princess and Bergami 
 seated together: Bergami had his arm 
 across the Princess's neck. I do not 
 know whether it was a sofa, an easy 
 chair, or a small bed they were sitting 
 on : I was only there for a moment. 
 The breast of the Princess was unco- 
 vered from here (drawing his hand 
 across his breasts.) "VV hen I entered, 
 iiergami said " What do you wauthere, 
 you dog?" I apologized, and. said I 
 had come to look for Gaugiaii. He 
 told me that was not a room to be 
 entered; that it was not a place for 
 masons to work in. I afterwards saw 
 the Princess and Bergami once more : 
 they were descending the stair case 
 arm in arm: they stocd for a moment 
 together. I saw them subsequently 
 three or four times upon aujass : Ber- 
 gami was on foot; he Avas near the 
 Princess; he had one hand behind her 
 back, and at another time on her thigh, 
 because she Mas sitting on an ass. 
 There were people passing up and 
 down — it was a public road. It was 
 in the day time. 
 
 CROSS-EXAMINATION. 
 Cross-examined by Mr. TINDAL, 
 — The first time I mentioned these 
 transactions was to the agent at the 
 Villa. I went to Milan aftervrards on 
 this business in 1818. I went to the 
 house of M, Viimarcati, the advocate, 
 and was then examined by him. Tbexe 
 were several other people there. One 
 was stated to be a colonel, another an 
 English advocate, and the other I did 
 not know. The colonel was Colonel 
 Brown, I was there four days and a 
 half. I was examined on the third day, 
 because there were others examined 
 before me. I received ten livres per 
 day to pay my expenses. I swear I 
 did not receive more for going to 
 Milan. I was applied to to come to 
 England last winter, towards the end 
 of March or the beginning of April. I 
 was applied to by the same person to 
 come here- -that was Viimarcati. I 
 made au agreement with him to pay 
 
EVIDENCE Oi? ALLESANDRO FINETTO. 
 
 133 
 
 me ten livres a day for my expences of 
 living. In coming over to Knjijland I 
 paid ray expenses out of Itie ten livres 
 per day. I don't know by m horn my 
 expences here are paid. I came this 
 morning out of a room near (his house, 
 • but I don't know where. There are 
 several other persons there, but they 
 are almost all strangers to me. Ma- 
 jochi is there, but I did not know him 
 before I came to England. The room 
 in which I saw the Princess and Ber- 
 gami had several doors to it. That 
 • "was the first time I went into the room. 
 It was about half-past nine, ten, or 
 eleven o'clock, but I don't know pre- 
 cisely. The olher men were at the 
 "building waiting until I should go to 
 them. This was about the latter end 
 of September, or beginning of October, 
 1817. 
 
 Re-examined. — When I came from 
 Milan I was to receive ten livres per 
 day, but I have not received that al- 
 lowance since I have been here. I 
 received that money for eleven days. 
 When I came to England I landed in 
 London ; afterwards I went to Hol- 
 land. I had first arrived at Dover, 
 and four of my countrymen with me. 
 
 The witness was asked what hap- 
 pened to him at Dover, but Mr. 
 Brougham having objected to the ques- 
 tion, it "Was notpres<«ed. 
 
 Lord LIVERPOOL.— For the better 
 understanding of the witness's answer, 
 I wish to ask him, when he opened the 
 door and saw Bcrgami with his arm 
 round the Princess's neck, whether 
 her Royal HIghness's breasts were 
 bare ? — I Kave seen it so ; and, so far 
 as I am concerned, I have seen it un- 
 covered. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR— Ask 
 liim how far did he see her Royal High- 
 ness's breasts uncovered? — I did not 
 stay to look ; I saw it and made my 
 escape ; I saw it in the twinkling of an 
 eye (a laugh) ; it was uncovered as far 
 as here (making a motion or sign which 
 we could not see). 
 
 Lord Viscount FALMOUTH.— 
 Read that :mswer. 
 
 Mr. OURNEVreadit. 
 ' A PEER. — I wish to know whether 
 the Princess was differently dressed 
 in this resp^eet when the witness saw 
 her going down stairs from the time 
 he saw her in the room. 
 
 The LOKD-CHANCELLOR.— Will 
 the noble lord who asked the question 
 condescend to let others hear him ? 
 
 Answer from the witness, — I say yes. 
 
 20 
 
 Duke of HAMILTON.— How was 
 
 the Princess dressed at that time?— ^I 
 cannot say so ; I say what I saw, and 
 was surprised at it. 
 
 Was there a handkerchief or any 
 thing else that covered her Royal 
 Highness's neck ? — I say no. I saw it 
 so with my own eyes : I saw her bare. 
 
 I wish to know whether Bergami's 
 hand was round her Royal Highness's 
 neck, or behind her neck? — I am the 
 Princess, and you, the Interpreter, 
 are the Baron (much laughter). The 
 witness here passed his hand round 
 the Interpreter's neck. 
 
 Does the witness say that Bergami 
 had his hand round the Princess's 
 neck ? — I have repeated it many times. 
 I have even shown it. 
 
 A PEER complained of the great 
 improprietj' and indecency of the wit- 
 ness's conduct in making such motions, 
 and then laughing, as on this occasion ; 
 and said it ought not to be passed un- 
 noticed. 
 
 Lord LIVERPOOL said that, what- 
 ever impressions might have been made 
 o» the minds of the noble lords, the 
 conduct did not seem to require fur- 
 ther notice. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR said 
 he did not think this sort of thing ex- 
 cusable. 
 
 FIFTEENTH WITNESS. 
 
 [AllESANDRO FiNF.TTlS.] 
 
 ALLESANDRO FINETTIS was 
 
 next called and sworn. — He was ex- 
 amined by the ATTORNEY-GENE^ 
 RAL. 
 
 I am an ornamental painter. I was 
 employed at the Villa d'Este. I was 
 first emj»loyed by Baron Bergami. I 
 was at the Villa d'Este two years. I 
 afterwards went, to Rome. During 
 the time 1 was at the Villa d'Este I 
 have repeatedly seen the Princess and 
 Bergami walking about the grounds to- 
 gether. The Princess had hold of Ber- 
 gami s hand. Sometimes they were ac* 
 compauied by the dame d'honneur. • I 
 have seen them in a boat together many 
 times : sometimes alone ; sometimes 
 accompanied by the dame d'honneur. 
 I know Bergami's room. I remember 
 once being in the anti-chamber, and 
 saw Bergami coming out fiom the side 
 where the Princej«s's room was. He 
 was dressed in a morning gown, witli 
 his drawers on. He went to his own 
 room. He saw me. When I was at 
 Romc; at the Villa Brande, I waited 
 
154 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 at tabic, at dinner, and at supper. 
 Bergami dined and supped with the 
 Princess. I remember being at Koc- 
 cauelli. Bergami was ill there. He 
 kept his bed. I have seen the Prin- 
 cess many times in his room. She was 
 there conversing. I have seen her 
 Royal Highness give him medicines. 
 I bronghtthe fire to gethls bed warmed. 
 I have seen him get out of bed for the 
 purpose of having his bed warmed ; 
 the Princess was in the room at the 
 time. I remember going from Ancona 
 to Rome with the Princess. On that 
 journey I have seen the Princess and 
 Bergami together. I saw the Princess 
 put her arms under Berganii's arms: 
 they embraced; their faces were at.a 
 distance, for she is short and he is tali. 
 I have been at Caprina, and have seen 
 the Princess and Bergami together 
 there. The first night of our arrival I 
 saw them in the dark on tlie, steps 
 which led into the garden. I went to 
 look for the key, because I thought it 
 was the wife of the agent, and found 
 it was th« Princess embracing Ber- 
 gami. I saw them kiss each other at 
 tlie Villa dEste. 
 
 The witness was not cross-examined, 
 and withdrew. 
 
 SIXTEENTH V/ITNESS. 
 
 [DOMINICO BRUZO.] 
 
 DOMINICO BRUZO examined by 
 Mr. PARK. — I am a mason. I was 
 employed in the service of the Princess 
 from 1815 to 1817. I have been at the 
 Villa d'Este and at the Barona. I 
 have seen the Princess and Bergami 
 many times together. I have seen 
 them in a boat and on land. On the 
 evening of St. Bartholomew I saw 
 them at the Villa d'Este sitting upon a 
 bench in an arbour. They were alone. 
 I afterwards saw them in the house 
 oaressing each other with their hands. 
 Both were standing. They caressed 
 each other with their hands (the wit- 
 ness illustrated his answer by stroking 
 dov^Ti the face of the Interpreter in a 
 whimsical manner). 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 seen her in a small boat many times on 
 the Lake of Comowitii Bartolomo Ber- 
 gami — no person was with them, but 
 themselves. He knew the river 
 Bretcia,and had seen the Princess and 
 Bergami on the river. They were 
 there in a little canoe near the gale 
 which prevented the water overfiowing 
 the country. First, the canoe was 
 empty, and in a moment after he saw 
 them both in it, after being near the 
 flood-gate, where there was a hank to 
 prevent an inundation of a small piece 
 of land — farther on, there was a new 
 road made by the Princess through 
 vineyards, where he first saw them. 
 He had on other times also seen them 
 on the Brescia, and dressed both in 
 wfiite, their clothes appeared to be 
 wet, but as he did not touch them, he 
 could not tell with accuracy. They 
 went off together in the canoe down 
 the small canal of the Brescia, about 
 two o'clock. When he first saw the 
 Princess and Bergami near the flood- 
 gate, they were leaning against the 
 board, and Bergami immediately after 
 conducted her to the bank. AVhere 
 he saw them at that time was near a 
 bathing-place, about a yard deep ; the 
 bank is good there and the wat( r clear, 
 and many gentlemen like it for bath- 
 ing. The Princess and Bergami were, 
 he thought, at first in the water, but 
 on seeing him they came out. They 
 both wore loose trowsers reaching to 
 the feet. 
 
 The witness was here ordered %o 
 withdraw. 
 
 SEVENTEENTH WITNESS. 
 
 [Antonio Bianchi.] 
 ANTONIO BIANCHI examined 
 by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, 
 tint he was an inhabitant of Como, 
 atod knew the Princess of Wales wiien 
 she lived at the Villa d'Este. He had 
 
 EIGHTEENTH WITNESS. 
 
 (Giovanni Luccini.) 
 
 GIOVANNI LUCCINI was next 
 examined by Mr. PARK. — I am a 
 whitewasher. I have been employed 
 at the Villa d'Este m the service of the 
 Princess of Wales. I know Bergami. 
 I have seen the Princess and Bergami 
 riding together in a pado vanclio (a 
 small carriage). The Princess was 
 sitting on Bergaml's knees. In his 
 left hand he held the reins, in his right 
 a whip. I have seen them sitting, 
 reading, in the garden. Bergami took 
 the Princess's arm and led her into a 
 cabinet. I have seen Bergami in his 
 room in his morning gown. The Prin- 
 cess was there, also, dressed in white. 
 They looked out of the window to- 
 gether a short time, and then retired. 
 I have been at the theatre at the Villa 
 d'Este, and have seen the Princess 
 
EVIDENCE OF GUISSEPPE RASTELLT. 
 
 155 
 
 !sin|^n^ while Bergami waa playing on 
 a torotetello. 
 
 Enil GREY. — Is a pado vancllo a 
 carriage usually used in the country ? 
 — It is. 
 
 Is it not a carnage with one seat 
 only ? — One seat. 
 
 Can two people sit in it side by side ? 
 — No. 
 
 Is it not the custom for the person 
 who drives to have the person sitting 
 onliis knee? — Certainly. 
 
 Lord ELLENBOROUGH.—Have 
 you frequently seen two persons riding 
 in this way ? — Frequently. 
 
 NINETEENTH WITNESS. 
 
 (Carlo Carratti.) 
 
 CARLO CARRATTI sworn and 
 examined by the ATTORNEY-GE- 
 NERAL. — I have been in the service 
 of the Princess of Wales about two 
 years as confectioner. I first saw the 
 Princess at the Villa d'Este. I know 
 Bergami, and have often seen him and" 
 the Princess together. They walked 
 as if they were two friends — husband 
 and wife. I went with the Pwncess 
 to the Villa Brandi at Rome. It was 
 my business to prepare breakfast. I 
 saw Bergami there. I went to Ca- 
 prini witii the Princess. The Princess 
 had a nightingale; as I was taking food 
 for the bird I saw Bergami and the 
 Princess kissing each other. The 
 Princess said, " Do not remain so long 
 out, mon cocur." I have seen the Prin- 
 cess in Bergami's room very often. 
 When they came down to breakfast 
 the Princess usually had Bergami under 
 her arm. 
 
 TWENTIETH WITNESS. 
 (Francisco Gassivo.) 
 
 FRANCISCO GASSING examin- 
 ed.— I come from the neighbourhood 
 of Como. I am a mason. I have been 
 employed at the Villa d'Este for seven- 
 teen years. This witness furtherspoke 
 to tli.e alteration of the door in Ber- 
 .gami's room, subsequent to the Prin- 
 cess's return from Greece. The door 
 was not a new one, but an old one re- 
 opened. 
 
 TWENTY-FIRST WITNESS. 
 
 (GuissEPPE Rastelli. 
 
 GUISSEPPE RASTELLI examin- 
 ed. — I hav€ been in the service of the 
 
 I'rincess of Wales, as snperLntendant 
 of stables. I remained with her till 
 the latter end of 181Z. When I first 
 went to the Princess, she was residing 
 at the Villa d'Este. I knew Bergami. 
 I have seen Bergami and the Princes.^ 
 ride in a pado-vanello. The Princess 
 was seated on Bergami's knees. I 
 have seen them on the Lake of Como 
 several times ; sometimes together, 
 sometimes alone. When in the pado- 
 vanello, I have seen the Princess ex- 
 tend her cloak over Bergami anTl her- 
 self. I recollect going with them to 
 Caprini. It was my duty to ride be- 
 fore the carriage. I occasionally ap- 
 proached the carriage for instructions. 
 I went near the carriage to know what 
 road we were to take. The carriage 
 was open. I observed the Princess's 
 hand in Bergami's small clothes. I 
 saw it distinctly, and was ashamed, 
 and turned away. 1 went Avith thlenl 
 to Calolica. I saw the Princess •g6 \6 
 meet Bergami in her carriage ; when 
 they met, Bergami alighted from hi^ 
 carriage, and ran towards that of the 
 Princess ; he embraced her, and saict, 
 " Caro amico mio" or to that effect. 
 (These words have the force of " Mon 
 cheramie" in French.) They then took 
 each other by the arm, and went into 
 the same carriage together. This 
 was at night. I remember the little 
 Victorine. She called the Princess 
 "Mamma;" and the Princess called 
 her " Ma cherjille." I was at Bologna. 
 I saw the wife of Bergami there. She 
 was once there when the Princess ar- 
 rived, and they all escaped 3 they all 
 went away. 
 
 CROSS-EXAMINATION. 
 Cross examined by Mr. DENMAN. 
 — I was not dismissed from the service 
 of the Princess for stealing corn, but 
 because I gave leave to two of her m*n 
 to go to an inn ; and on their return, 
 the Baron and Bernardo, his cousin, 
 and some others, went to stop these 
 men, and when they came to me to 
 complain of it, I said that masters 
 should not become thief takers. The 
 next day Luigi came to me with my 
 wages, and told me, ** As I was an ho- 
 nest man, I ought not to stop with 
 thief takers any longer," (much langk- 
 ter) and therefore I took my salary, 
 and went away. I was never charge4 
 with stealing horse provender. I nev^jr 
 said I had been dismissed for stealhag 
 
156 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 corn, for I never told a lie. I have 
 been in England since tlie day before 
 yesterday. I first heard the commis- 
 sion at Milan was sitting towards the 
 end of December, 1818. I was sent to 
 Milan by a man of the name of Riganti, 
 who told me to go to Vihnarcati, the 
 advocate. I went before the commis- 
 sioners two days after. What I said 
 was taken down in writing. I was af- 
 terwards employed as a courier to the 
 commission. In that capacity I went 
 to Westphalia with a letter to a man 
 of the name of Credi. I knew Credi 
 in the house of her Royal Highness. 
 I persuaded Credi to go to Milan. I 
 afterwards went to Frankfort, accom- 
 panied by Mr. Cook ; I saw Credi at 
 Frankfort, and Frisson, who was in 
 the service of the Princess in 1816, 
 at the Logo Como. I did not speak 
 to this woman ; I saw her by chance. 
 I afterwards went with some dispatches 
 to Sir Charles Stewart at Paris. I 
 went with several other dispatches; 
 but I have lately come to England with 
 ^even witnesses. I expect nothing 
 for coming here but my expenses. I 
 do not know whether Credi is in Eng- 
 land. I have seen Prisson. I have 
 never offered Draconi any money to 
 eome forward as a witness. I know 
 tlie Count Vassali. I only said to him 
 I bad been discharged, which I have 
 described. It was broad day light 
 vhen I saw the Princess take her hand 
 ftrom Bergami's small-clothes. 
 
 TWENTY-SECOND AVITNESS. 
 
 (GwissEPPE Egali.) 
 GUISSEPPE EGALI sworn and 
 examined.- I am a waiter at the Crown 
 Inn, which lies thirteen miles from 
 Milan, between Milan and Como. I 
 remenjber the Princess coming there 
 about five years ago. Bergami came 
 with her. They dined with ten or 
 twelve others. At dinner they paid 
 compliments to each other, and of- 
 fered delicate morsels to each other. 
 The witness then described, that after 
 dinner, when the rest of the company 
 had retired, he saw Bergami give the 
 Princess a kiss. He had his arm on 
 the shoulder of the Princess. Witness 
 left the room, they bid him go. 
 
 TWENTY-THIRD WITNESS. 
 
 (GuissEPPE Del Orto.) 
 
 GUISSEPPE DEL ORTO examin- 
 ed, — I am.a baker. I was in the ser- 
 
 vice of the Princess of Wales at th^ 
 Villa d'Este. I saw the Princess and 
 Bergami sitting in the garden. He 
 had his arm round her neck. He wa» 
 making love to her, and kissed h< r. 
 (The witness put his arm round the 
 Interpreter's nt ck, and offered to kiss 
 him). (laughter.) Before he kissed 
 her he had got up : the Princess took 
 him by the flap of the coat, and pulled 
 him down again. It was after that the 
 arm was put round the neck. I have 
 seen the Princess and Bergami in the 
 kitchen. There was some polluta there. 
 Bergami took some in a spoon, put 
 half in the Princess's mouth, and the 
 rest in his own. I saw theiw again in 
 the pantry. Bergami took a piece of 
 sweet-meat and put it into the mouth 
 of the Princess. I have seen them 
 alone on the Lake of Como, in a canoe 
 
 TWENTY FOURTH WITNESS. 
 
 [GUISSEPPE GOURGIADI.] 
 
 GUISSEPPE GOURGIADI sworn 
 and examined. — -I am a boatman on 
 the lake Como. I have taken Bergami 
 and the Princess in my boat to the the- 
 atre. I have seen the Princess kiss 
 Bergami about four times. I have 
 seen them in the pantry; and when 
 they took themselves away from the 
 table they went to the bed-room of the 
 Princess, and locked themselves in. 
 
 CROSS-EXAMINATION. 
 
 Cross-examined by Mr. WILDE. — 
 Witness said there were ten men in the 
 boat when he saw what he had de- 
 scribed between the Princess and Ber-r 
 gami. — Adjourned . 
 
 TUESDAY, September 5th. 
 
 TWENTY-FIFTH WITNESS. 
 
 [GUSISEPPE Sacchi.] 
 
 GUISSEPPE SACCHI sworn and 
 examined by the ATTORNEY-GE- 
 NERAL. — I am a native of Bellingino 
 in Italy. I entered the service of the 
 Princess of Wales on the 7th of No- 
 vember, 1816, when her Royal High- 
 ness resided at the Villa d'Este. I was 
 in her service one year. I M-as em- 
 ployed as a courier for about four 
 months, and then I was promoted to the 
 situation equerry. I was at the Villa 
 d'Este about six months. When I 
 entered the service of the Princes§ I 
 
EVIDENCE OF GUISSEPPE SACCHI. 
 
 157 
 
 snw BtMi^aini there. Soon after i 
 entered the service I was heiit with a 
 liispatch to the Duchohs of Parma; 
 and, on my return with the answer, 1 
 saw the Princess sitlinjr with Beriiami 
 alone. The Princess read the answer 
 and laid it down on the table. While 
 her Royal Highness wa* speaking; to 
 me, Bergami took the dispatch up, and 
 pretended to read it, without asking 
 leave. In the beginning of the month 
 of December following I was sent with 
 a dispatch to the Governor, General 
 Saurau, at Milan. I was directed by 
 Bergami to make the utmost speed, 
 and to bring back ihe answer that 
 night, which I did accordingly; and 
 arrived at midnight. When I arrived 
 I went into the kitchen; saw the foot- 
 man ; asked where Bergami was; and, 
 in consequence of his information, 1 
 went to Bergami's anti-room, where 
 his servant slept ; and, finding the lat- 
 ter asleep, I "^fent towards Bergami's 
 own room, and the door being open I 
 entered. I observed that the bed was 
 tumbled ; but nobody was there. ] 
 then went away ; and as I was going I 
 heard a neise on the opposite side, 
 and, at the same time, heard some 
 body say '* Who's there ?" I thought it 
 was Bergami, and I answered that I 
 was the courier from Milan. Bergami 
 then came to me in his dressing-gown, 
 and told me there was no necessity for 
 delivering the answer. I don't know 
 that he had any other clothes under his 
 dressing-gown: I saw nothing else 
 but bis shirt. I saw him in the room 
 where there is a door opposite to the 
 door in his room. I did nol see where 
 be came from, because it was dark. 
 The door of Bergami's room led into 
 two other rooms in which nobody slept. 
 I did not know where the Princess's 
 bod-room was, nor where she slept. 
 Whilst I was at the Villa d'Estc I have 
 often seen the Princess and Bergami 
 walking arm in arm together in the 
 garden. I remember carrying a letter 
 to General Pino, and bringing a verbal 
 answer back, and deliveriwg it to the 
 Princes?* in her own anti-chamber, 
 which I remember was near that in 
 which Bergami spoke to me on the 
 night I have already mentioned. I 
 have observed that when the Princess 
 walked arm in arm with Bergami, she 
 used to address him familiarly, and call 
 him by tender names, such as *^ Mon 
 ange^^ " Mon amour,'' and '* Mon cocur." 
 I remember accompanyini; the Prin- 
 
 cess to Turin. She lodged at th-e 
 " Jtberg- del Umi'erse." I went bei'ore 
 her for the last post. WhcYi I arrived 
 at the inn I made arrangements with 
 the innkeeper for sleeping accommo- 
 dations, lor her Royal Hij>hness the 
 best apartment was provided ; others 
 near it for the dame d'honneur and the 
 femme-do-chambre ; for the gentlemen 
 we allotted other apartments separate 
 from the rest. On the arrival of the 
 Princess and Bergami I shewed them 
 the distinction I had made; but it did 
 not meet with the approbation of 
 either, and the apartments I had cho- 
 sen for the gentlemen were allotted to 
 her Royal Highness, the dame d'hon^ 
 vevr, Bergami, and the fetnme de chant-, 
 bre. Between the room of her Royal 
 Highness and that of Bergami was tiie 
 room of the dame d'honneur^ which 
 formed a medium of communication 
 between the foimer rooms. Her Royal 
 Highne-s remained at 'iurin about six 
 days. I went with her to the Barona, 
 where she gave several balls. At the 
 beginning, besides her Royal High- 
 ness's suite, there came also to the 
 bails some persons of distinction, aad 
 persons of all ranks. Afterwards peo- 
 ple of very low condition attended. 
 Persons of rank were no longer seea,/ 
 except the suite of her Royal High- 
 ness, because some low freedoms were 
 allowed. The sort of freedoms I 
 allude to wei'c that those persons were 
 allowed to come and take the women 
 out with them at their pleasure and 
 will. I have not heard the Princess 
 say any thing upon those persons go- 
 ing out and coming in. I do remember 
 hearing the Princess saying something 
 to me about those girls that were at 
 the ball. One day while I was in the 
 court and her Royal Highness and 
 Bergami were there, tiie Princess told 
 me these precise words. She said she 
 wLshed to make a present to some of 
 these girls, and then she asked me, 
 and said, '• How can we dress these 
 young maids f" (vergweile.) Tlu n she 
 asked me »' Do you believe they are so 
 (or such ?■') and I answered that as far 
 as I was concerned I believed them to 
 be honest (/toneste) girls; and that 1 
 had nothing to say against them; aiid 
 the Princess told me ** I know, you 
 rogue, that you have been in bed 
 with thrc\j of them, and how many 
 times you have had intercourse with 
 them;'' and I being .surprised at this 
 complimeat, endeavoured to persuade 
 
358 
 
 TRIAi^ OF THE QVEEV. 
 
 her Koyal Hisliness that »lie was de- 
 ceived. V>cii!;a»ni was present, and 
 be^Hii to lauj^h, and to cry jiloud, " It 
 is line ! it is true! it is true!" The 
 vord vcrginflie means youn» virj^ins. 
 I should also liave said modest twirls, 
 insJcad of honest fjirls. 'J'he words 
 maid and vir^^in are bolli in llie Italian 
 lawiumgc expressed by the same word. 
 :l did not hear tVom her Koyal High- 
 Hess to which of the j^irls the present 
 "was made. I have several times seen 
 the Princess at the ball* in the same 
 room with those persons of low condi- 
 liuu to whr.m I have allnded; some- 
 times I have seen her Koyal Highness 
 join in tiie dances. On one occasion, 
 .when one of the women came to the 
 house of her Koyal Highness, and 
 when she was seen by her Koyal High- 
 mess, s!ie pointed her out witli her 
 finger, langiied, and exclaimed — " How 
 much the population of the Barona 
 would be increased!'' I attended the 
 Princess in her tour through Germany. 
 In the course of that journey Bergami 
 purchased a carriage for two persons. 
 It was provided for my nse during the 
 night* and days when the weather was 
 bad. The Princess and Bergami also 
 travelled in it many times in fair wea- 
 ther. I remember one day, whilst 
 they remained at a place, the name of 
 which I forget, the Princess and l>er- 
 jjauii set out in this snudl carriage be- 
 f©re I was in time to follow them, as I I 
 was obliged to set about getting the ! 
 pther carri;!ges ready j and having 
 jfoUowcd them as soon a.i I could, 
 nraking the most haste, I conld not 
 ©vertake them till they arrived at the 
 iSrst station. When I arrived I asked 
 about them, and I was pointed to a 
 room where they were. I knocked at 
 tifie door and enquired whether I could 
 enter ; Bergami answered I could not 
 come in, as I did. After I entered, 1 
 saw the Princess and Bergami on the 
 i)ed J but 1 must observe, that they 
 were decently diessed and at a distance 
 iVoni one another. They were lying on 
 the bed ns far as the middle, and their 
 backs were leaning or resting against 
 the wall. I don't know whether in the 
 c< ur^e of that journey we stopped at 
 «iiy inn at which there were English 
 persons staying ; but I remember, 
 when I preceded her Royal Highness 
 on the road to Munich, she told me 
 that the tirst on settling for lodgings 
 was to inquire whether there were any 
 
 English , and if there were any FnglisTi 
 I was to inquire after their rank, and 
 to go son)e\vhere else for lodsrings for 
 hur Royal Highness. I continued to 
 bespeak the lodgings as far as (larl.s- 
 ruhe, but when we arrived at Carls- 
 ruhe the same thing happened as l>ap- 
 pened at Turin, with regard to« the 
 arrangement of the rooms. I did not 
 meddle with it any more during the 
 rest of the journey, leaving her Royal 
 Highness to do as she liked. During 
 the course of that journey, generally 
 speaking, the bcd-iooras of the Prin- 
 ce^^^s and Bcrcami were as near to each 
 other as possible. In the course of 
 the journey we went to Mount Falconi, 
 and arrived there at night, having been 
 overtaken by a violent storm and dark- 
 ness we were obliged to stop at a mi- 
 serable inn ; on their arrival the Prin- 
 cess and Bergami mounted the stairs, 
 and went into a room wjjere there was 
 a bed. They remained'Vfiere alone till 
 the rest of the suite arrived, being 
 about an hour, or an hour and a half. 
 After that journey we returned to Mi- 
 Ian, and then went to Rome. On our 
 journey to Rome we stopped at a place 
 called Savignana, where the Princess 
 was taken ill with violent pains. She 
 was attended by Bergami and the 
 Countess of Oldi. Hot clothes were 
 prepared, and Bergami and the Coun- 
 tess carried tlicm to the room where 
 her Koynl Highness was. We went 
 afterward? to Ampona. At that place 
 I attended Bergami when he was lying 
 on a sick bed. I observed a door open 
 in his room leading to another room, 
 which I believe was the Princess's, but 
 I cannot with certainty say that it was^ 
 I saw in that room some things belong- 
 ing to her Roval Highness, as, for in- 
 stance, the boxes belonging to her toi- 
 let. There was also a bed there. We 
 •afterwards went to Koecanelli, where 
 Bergami was ill and confined to kis 
 bed. One evening I was going to visit 
 him about eleven o'clock, and when I 
 was at the door, which was part open, 
 I saw him in bed, and the Princess 
 lying stretched out on a sofa by the 
 side of the bed. There were some 
 cushions on the sofa. On the seeing 
 the Princess in that situation I imme- 
 diately withdrew. From Koecanelli 
 we went to Villa Grande. I slept in 
 the wing of the house on the left of the 
 entrance door. Bergami slept on the 
 right hand, exactly opposite to my 
 
CROSS-EXAMINATION OF GUISSEI^E SAGCHI. 
 
 15Sf 
 
 room. Her Royal Higlincss also slopt 
 on the same side of the house with Bei- 
 jrami. I remember one night when 
 the rest of the family were in bed, after 
 midnight, while it was insnfferably hot, 
 I was at tlie window of my room, and 
 as 1 heard a noise on the side of the 
 room ot Bert;anji,l withdrew a litlle; 1 
 saw Berijanil come out of his room,Hnd 
 go to the door that led to the apart- 
 ment of her Koyiil Highness ; he 
 opened the door, entered, and I saw 
 him come out no more. I remained at 
 my window about an hour after I saw 
 Bergnmi enter. A few nights after I 
 saw the same thing, and about the 
 same time at night. After remaining 
 about a quarter of an hour the second 
 time, I did not see Bergami return to 
 bi6 room. At Villa Grande I saw two 
 busts, which I was told were meant to 
 represent the Princess and Bergami. 
 I myself thought they represented her 
 Royal Highness and Bergami, from 
 ♦he likenesses. They were nearly of 
 
 {jainis room. It was in the month of 
 July that I saw Bergami entering the 
 Princess's room at niglit. The Prin- 
 cess went from Rome to Senegaglia, 
 The weather was vei^ hot at the time, 
 and she travelled by night. I was 
 always by the side of her Royal High- 
 ness's carriage, which was surrounded 
 by curtains. Every morning, when 
 day appeared, I went to the carriage 
 to ask her Royal Highness if she 
 granted any thing, and I have several 
 times drawn the curtains aside. Be- 
 ^ sides the Princess, the Countess Oldi 
 and Bergami's child sometimes travel- 
 led in that carriage. On these occa- 
 sions, when I used to draw the cur- 
 tains, I have two or three times 
 observed the Princess and Bergami 
 asleep, with their hands on each other : 
 Bergami had his hand on a particular 
 part of her Royal Highness's person, 
 and her Royal Highnesii's hand was in a 
 similar position with regard to Berga- 
 pii's. 1 once observed that Bergami's 
 breeches (his caloiny) were half loos- 
 ened, that they were free from the 
 braces and unbuttoned, and in that 
 situation the I'lincess's hand was on 
 the person of Bergami. There was no 
 other person in the carriage at that 
 time. They were both asleep there. 
 I saw Bergami kiss the Princess's 
 neck. I attended them to Pesaro. 
 Whilst the Princess remained at Pe- 
 saro, Biigami went to Bologna for 
 
 two days. The Princess went to meet 
 him on his retain with part of her 
 suite ;theymetatthe toll gate, alighted 
 from their respective carriages, kissed 
 and cynbrared mutually; they then! 
 returned in the same carriage to 
 Pesaro. 
 
 CROSS-EXAMINATION. 
 
 Cross-examined by Mr. BROUGH- 
 AM. — I don't at all understand En- 
 glish. I have been in this country 
 about fourteen mouths. I have lived 
 during that time sometimes in Londoo 
 and sometimes in the country. My 
 name is Sacchi. I was called Saochine 
 at Milan ; it is true that I have been 
 called Milani in this country, and have 
 always gone by tliat name here. I 
 was at Stevenage sometimes, but I 
 never lived there. When in the coun- 
 try, I was at Aston; that is four miles 
 from Stevenage. I lived there in the 
 house of the Reverend Philip Godfrey.^ 
 I have seen him once lately in London., 
 After I left the Princess's service, I 
 went first to live at Milan. I w^nt 
 into no other service. I have been 
 always out of place since that time. 
 I have never been in any other service 
 since. I was first examined at Milan 
 upon this business in November, 1818. 
 That was not the first time I told this 
 story to any person at Milan. I had 
 told it at other times. The iirst time 
 I ever was examined upon the subject 
 was in the month of November, 1818. 
 I had told the story before that time to 
 different people, but I do not recollect 
 at present any one of tlien»< A mes- 
 senger was sent forme by the Advo- 
 cate Vilmarcati, to go to Milan to be 
 examined. I saw no one else with 
 Vilmaroati. He did not examine mc 
 at that time. I was examined the f.rst 
 time about a fortnight afterwards ; 
 there were present on that occa-ioor 
 the Advocate Vilmarcati, Mr. Powell, 
 Colonel Brown, and a t^entleman wliora 
 th«y <;alled Cooke. What I said they 
 took down in writing. I did uottlkere 
 make oath then as to what I said. I 
 did in London, at Mr. Powell's cham- 
 fiers. When out of service at Milan I 
 supported myself. I always had means 
 of my own. After I was advanced 
 from the station of courier in her Royal 
 Highness's service, my wages were 
 never settled; I did not" serve thePrin- 
 ce<«3 as a volunteer. I received some- 
 thing, but no certain salary. Whilst 
 
ICO 
 
 tUIAL QP THJB QUEEN. 
 
 in her Royal Higlmess's service I re- 
 ceived money at tliree several times, 
 amounting in the wliole to sixty or se- 
 venty Napoleons. I do not remember 
 how much I received as courier only. 
 I continued in her Royal Highness's 
 service as courier about nine months 
 out of the twelve that I was with her. 
 I entered her Royal Highness's service 
 through the gond offices of M. Chiavini, 
 a banker, the Baron Caroleti, and Ber- 
 gami. I mean to say, that I was al- 
 ways, thank God, in easy circum- 
 stances. I mean to say that I was al- 
 ways as xvell dressed as I am now, I 
 do not know that I. was called Count 
 Milani when I was introduced to M. 
 "Marietti. I am sworn to tell the truth, 
 and the truth alone ; and I swear that 
 I was not introduced under the name 
 of Count Milani. I will swear that I 
 do not know that I was called the 
 Count Milani on that occesion. I am 
 sure that I never heard myself called 
 Count in Jhe. presence of M. Marietti. 
 I am sure that I never heard myself so 
 called at Aston. I will swear that I 
 never was introduced to M. Marietti 
 as a merchant. I never stated to him 
 that I had come to this country for 
 eommercial purposes. I always said 
 that I came here in the service of a 
 Spanish family. It is not true, in 
 point of fact, that I did come over in 
 the rervice of a Spanish family. I have 
 said that I liad a lawsuit with the Prin- 
 cess of Wales, hot never that she owed 
 any money. I meant by that to say, 
 that I was engaged in the process 
 which was making against her Royal 
 Highness. I do not mean to say, that 
 I told M. Marietti that I was one of 
 the witnesses in the prosecution against 
 the Princess. 1 never said any thing 
 to M. Marietti on the subject. To 
 v.tionisoever I told this story of a law- 
 suit, I told it as a '* chuble entendre.'' 
 I think I did disclose to some part of 
 M. Marietti's family that I was one of 
 the witnesses against her Royal High- 
 ness. This was aboUt two months 
 ago. I mentioned my real name to 
 some oneelsej 1 told my real name to 
 ©ne of the brothers of Signor Marietti, 
 -who was in the family. That was seven 
 or eijiht months from the present time. 
 I don't remember to whom I told my 
 real name two months ago. It is some 
 time since the gentleman to whom I 
 disclosed my name in M. Marietti's 
 family set out from Milan. I h.ave 
 l^ceu several times in M. Marietti's 
 
 house in London since that time. The 
 last time that I was on a visit there, 
 was about three or four months since. 
 Signer Marit'tti's brother, who had set 
 out from Milan, knew that my real 
 name was Sacchi. The other members 
 of the family never called me Sacchi 
 during the last day that I was visiting 
 them. The last time that I was visit- 
 ing the family of Mr. Godfrey, at 
 Aston, I told him that my real name 
 was Sacchi. I did not tell Uieni my- 
 seli' that I was to be one of the wit- 
 nesses in this cause, but I caused it to 
 be told to them by a M. Spireti, a Mi- 
 lanese gentleman, whom 1 have known 
 in the house of Marlet'i. I have been 
 told that Spireti was a cousin of Ma- 
 rietti. The first time that Spireti 
 knew who I really was, was one day 
 wheii he had me to pay him a visit 
 there. I told him who I was. This is 
 seven or eight months ago. I swear 
 that it w as about seven months ago. I 
 do not remember that I ever made ap- 
 plication to be taken back into the 
 service of hor Royal Highness. I never 
 represented to any one, after 1 had 
 left the service of her Royal Highness, 
 that I was in a destitute condition. 
 
 Did you ever entreat any person at 
 her Royal Highness's household to 
 have compassion on your miserable 
 sittiation, after you had left her ser- 
 vice ? — I have never been in a misera- 
 ble situation (a laugh). 
 
 "Will you swear that you never in- 
 treated any one of the suite of her 
 Royal Highness to take pity, or to 
 have compassion on you, alfter you had 
 left her service .'' — On what account 
 to have compassion on me? 
 
 That, Sir, is a question, and not an 
 answer. I must have an an§wer to 
 this question : Will you swear that 
 you never intreated of the Princess's 
 suite, after you had quitted her service, 
 to take compassion on you? — It may 
 be that I have. 
 
 Did you ever represent to any per- 
 son, after you had left her Royal High- 
 ness's service, that you taxed yourself 
 with ingratitude towards a most gene- 
 rous mistress ? 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL ob- 
 jected to this question in point of 
 form; and after a discussion of some 
 length, the judges were called upon to 
 give their opinion,** Whether, accord- 
 ing to tlie established piactice of the 
 courts below, counsel examining are 
 entitled, if the counsel on the other 
 
CROSS-EXAMINATION QF iiUISEPPE SACCIIT. 
 
 16S 
 
 thewi in the -Hcgativo. He did not eou- 
 c«ive tliat counsel were entitled by tl»€ 
 rules of practl<:e, to enquire in re-exa- 
 minatioii inlo the whole extent of coii- 
 vcr>.'\tion which might have passed be- 
 tween the witness and C. D., touching 
 the statement of the former that he was 
 a witness in the cause. 
 
 Mr. Justice BEST gave his opinion 
 and reasons for answering the questions 
 in the affirmative. He thought the re- 
 examination, in justice to the witness, 
 i)ught to go to the whole extent of the 
 convcrsaiion,in order that the real istate 
 of the facts, by reference to all their 
 circumstance*, might be fully" uniiei- 
 stood. 
 
 The remaining judges concluded 
 iwith Mr. Justice Richardson. 
 
 The counsel were then called in, and 
 the Attorney-General was informed, 
 that he must not put the question to 
 which objection had been taken. 
 
 The witness Sacchi Ma« then again 
 put to the bar, and wasfuither re-esa- 
 miued by the Attorney-General. Hv 
 deposed as follows: — I took tl^e nanie 
 of Milaui on account of the tinnult 
 which had then taken place, and the 
 d»nger I should run if my own were 
 known. 1 a$>umed this name immedi- 
 ately after the affair at Dover. 
 
 Fxaniined by the Marquis of BUCK- 
 INGHAM ; I have known Marietti 
 «ince my arrival in London. I have 
 known three brothers of the Marietiis. 
 
 Did any one of the Marieltis whom 
 you knew in London make any propo- 
 sition to you touching the evidence 
 which yoH were to give in this ca8<^ ? — 
 Guisseppe Marietti came to my lodg- 
 ing one day, and told me that he warned 
 to speak to me ; and he told me that 
 be was directed by Mr. Brougham, the 
 Urother of the Attorney (Beneral of the 
 Queen, who had called upon him in 
 the morning and inquired if l>e knew 
 me. He (Marietti) answered that he 
 did know me, and then the brother of 
 Mr. Brettgham asked him whether he 
 mi^ht be able to learn from me some- 
 thing relating to the Princess. Mari- 
 etti added, " as the Messrs. Broughams 
 had done me some services while I had 
 B9mc transactions with the Princess, so 
 I should like to do them also some «er- 
 ▼icc; but before I caminunicatetoyou 
 what I have got to say, I be? to tell you 
 that I come as a friend, and not to ills- 
 sHade you from doing what you have 
 resolved on ; having also represented 
 to Mr. Brougham that I would not 
 
 eitlier commit myself, or wish that tlie 
 parties should comniit themselves.'' 
 Aiivi he added, " as the minist<>rs hav« 
 letuscd to gra«ta list of the wilncss««», 
 or of the heads of the charge* against 
 the Queen, we should like to knovr 
 something from you, if you know any 
 of the witnesses, if 5 on know their 
 number, and if you can inform us any 
 tiiiv.ii of the dcposiiions which they are 
 to make." Tlien I answered, that al- 
 though I knew snjruellutig, I would 
 never tell ir, for that it might commit 
 me ; that 1 knew only one of the wit- 
 nes^ses; that I knew no deposition of 
 «ny other witness, and that I cowldglve 
 hi ill no other account. Marietti added, 
 thai it was wished to know so niBch, 
 because the Qaeen might pre|>are b«r 
 own defence. Afterwards he atked 
 me whether I n ight know something 
 concerning the depositions, and gave 
 me various arsurasices tliatlte didwot 
 Vv-ish to know this from me to commit 
 me, or to commit any of the parties. I 
 remember no more. 
 
 Did Marietti giv« you any advice as 
 to the evidence which you were at any 
 time to c;ive?-*-Never. 
 
 Did Marietti offer you any money 
 witli respect to the evidence you wcr« 
 to give ?~Never. 
 
 the Marquis of BUCKINGHAM 
 woiild very readily pirt to the Witncsn 
 any question which the Attorney -Ge- 
 neral of the Qhoen might suggest. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM felt much in- 
 debted to the noble marquis: but lye 
 had no reasoH to be dissatisfied with 
 the answer of the witness, altlwugh 
 perhaps others might. 
 
 Examined by Earl GREV-4 took 
 the name of Milani before i «et ont 
 from Puris for England. I bor» that 
 name until the attair at Dover hap- 
 pened, and then I <:lKinged it> and not 
 before. 
 
 By the Earl of DARLINGTON— 
 I left the Princess in consequence of a 
 qiian-el I had with the confectione!". 
 Her Royal Highness said she gave me 
 my discharge as an example for others. 
 Slie did uot wish such quarrels to take 
 place. 
 
 The witness withdrew. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR took 
 this opportunity of stating, that he hud 
 received a communication from a no- 
 ble lord (Lm-d Montague,) one of 
 the witnesses for the Queen, who wa^ 
 in snch a state of health as would pre.~ 
 vent him from attending the house. 
 
164: 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 He wished to know whether the coun- 
 sel on both sides would agree that he 
 might be examined abroad, by some- 
 thing in the nature of a commission ? 
 Their lordships had caused witnesses 
 to be examined in Ireland, by directing 
 magistrates there to take depositions, 
 and they had done the same in different 
 parts of thiscountry. Heknewthiscould 
 not be permitted without the consent 
 of both parties ; but, if they would con- 
 sent, he thought their lordships would 
 agree to the proceedings, as far as the 
 practice of the house was concerned. 
 He did not wish to receive any answer 
 from the counsel this evening on the 
 (lubject ; but he would mention it to- 
 morrow morning, and in the mean time 
 they would have an opportunity of con- 
 sidering the matter. He thought it 
 necessary, however, to state the cir- 
 cumstance, when he was apprized that 
 a witness in favour of the Queen could 
 not attend. 
 
 Mr. ROBERT PHAER, a cashier in 
 the banking-house of Coutts and Co. 
 being called, the certificate given by 
 the Queen to the witness, Sacchi, was 
 put into his hands. He deposed that 
 he had been thirteen years in the em- 
 ploy of Coutts and Co., and was ac- 
 qiiaiuted with the hand-writing of the 
 Princess of Wales, from having paid 
 drafts signed by her. The certificate 
 ■was of her writing. 
 
 A paper was also put into the hands 
 of the witness by Mr. BROUGHAM, 
 ■which purported to be signed by the 
 King, we believe, when Prince of 
 Wales, but Mr. Phaer could not swear 
 that it was the hand-writing of his Ma- 
 jesty, as, though the King kept cash at 
 the house of Coutts and Co. he never 
 drevv it out himself. 
 
 The certificate given to Guisseppe 
 Sacchi, a native of Como, dated Pe- 
 saro, November 5th, 1817, was then 
 read by the Interpreter, in Italian, and 
 afterwards in English. It gave the 
 •witness " a most excellent character 
 for assiduity, zeal, and fidelity," and 
 stated that he was only discharged 
 from motives of economy, and for the 
 sake of retaining older servants. It 
 was signed •' Caroline P." 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL then 
 offered the certificate given by Schia- 
 vlni to Majoehi, in the hand-writing of 
 Schiavini, and neither signed nor sealed 
 by the Princess. He contended, on 
 the evidence of Madame Dumont, that 
 3chiavini, as Marshal of the Palace, 
 
 was authorised to give these certifi- 
 cates. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM, on the contrary, 
 insisted, that though it appeared by the 
 testimony of Madame Dumont that 
 Schiavini " several times' had given 
 certificates, yet those very words im- 
 plied that somebody else gave them aj^ 
 other times. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR re- 
 ferred to the evidcnre of Francisco di 
 Rollo, who had received a certificate 
 from the hands and in the writing of 
 the Princess herself. He thought that 
 no sufl[icient ground had been laid for 
 reading the certificate of Majoehi. 
 
 The House decided accordingly, and 
 it was rejected. 
 
 APPLICATION FOR DELAY. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL.— I 
 have now an application to make to 
 your lordships of considerable impor- 
 tance, and I wish to state shortly the 
 circumstances under which I address 
 your lordships. I am instructed to 
 say, that certain persons residing at 
 Lugano and its vicinity had actually 
 set out for the purpose of giving evi- 
 dence at your lordships' bar, in the 
 very momentous question that at pre- 
 sent engages your lordships' attention. 
 Those persons had arrived at Beauvais, 
 two stages at this side of Paris, when 
 reports and rumours of the ill-treat- 
 ment of their countrymen, who had al- 
 ready landed in England, reached 
 them, and created in their minds con- 
 siderable alarm for their own personal 
 safety. These fears they communi- 
 cated to the magistrate at Beauvais, 
 and having deposed to them upon oath, 
 they returned to their respective homes. 
 When we first received intelligence of 
 their arrival at Beauvais, and of the 
 apprehension they entertained as to 
 their own safety, no time was lost in 
 sending thither in order to induce 
 them to alter their intention of return- 
 ing, and to persuade them to proceed 
 to England. Before the arrival of these 
 persons they had left Beauvais, and on 
 Monday last a letter was received from 
 Lugano, and from the contents of that 
 letter we expect that a very few days 
 will elapse before their arrival in Eng- 
 land. Indeed they had left that place 
 on the a9th of August, for tlie purpose 
 of attending here, and I have reason ta 
 believe that some or all of them are on 
 their way to this country. 
 
APPLICATION FOR DELAY. 
 
 165 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM, in resisting the 
 a4)plication, said, that the only analogy 
 to guide the House was to be found in 
 the proceediniis of the courts below : 
 there, sucli a motion as that the re- 
 mainder of a trial should be postponed 
 when it had been half gone through, 
 because a material witness was absent, 
 had never yet been heard of. 
 
 Mr. DENMi\.N followed on the same 
 side. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL re- 
 plied. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE said the delay re- 
 quired was monstrously repugnant to 
 every principle of justice, and that it 
 was merely an attempt Jo make a new 
 case, at least it was to add to it; and 
 who ever heard that u!\der any cir- 
 cumstances, after a cause was once be- 
 gun, such a delay was granted ? Even 
 an earthquake should not induce him 
 to yield to such an interruption of the 
 fair principles of justice. — (Cries of 
 Adjourn, adjourn !) 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR then 
 put two questions to the counsel, one 
 to the Attorney-General, and the other 
 to Mr. Brougham. 
 
 The first to the Attomey-Genernl 
 was, "Upon what evidence or docu- 
 ments do you make this application?'' 
 
 The ATTORNEY and SOLICI- 
 TOR-GENERAL replied, that they 
 had a letter, to which was annexed an 
 affidavit, wbich letter, &c. had arrived 
 from Lugano, and which stated the 
 reasons why the witnesses had been 
 detained in Italy. Both counsel 
 strongly contended that such evidence 
 would, in a court below, be quite suf- 
 ficient to put off a trial : if it was said 
 that atfidavits' could not be produced 
 in that House as evidence, they re- 
 plied in answer to that, that a person 
 could be produced at the bar of the 
 House, who would swear to his belief 
 of the facts, and that was all that was 
 required in the Courts below. 
 
 The question put to Mr. Brougham 
 was the following : — "If the Attorney- 
 General will now state that his case is 
 closed, will you wave your right of 
 cross-examination cf the witnesses at 
 a future period." 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM replied, th^t un- 
 der these circumstances, if one of the 
 witnesses was called back, and asked 
 two or three questions, he should have 
 jfio objection to wave Ui^ right of cross- 
 pxammation. 
 Adjourned, 
 
 THURSDAY, September 7ibh 
 
 At a quarter past ten counsel were 
 called in. 
 
 The ATTORNEY -GENERAL.— 
 My lords, I think it right to inform 
 your lordships, that I have, within the 
 last half hour, received dispatches 
 from Milan; inconsequence ofwhicli 
 a longer delay than I asked for yester- 
 day must take place before the wit- 
 nesses can .arrive in this country. Un- 
 der these circumstances, I beg leave 
 to withdraw the application which I 
 made yesterday. 
 
 The LORD -CHANCELLOR.— Be. 
 fore I put the question to your lord- 
 ships "whether it is your lordships* 
 pleasure that the application be with- 
 drawn," I beg leave to say, that the 
 Attorney-General having, in opening 
 his case, adverted to certain circum- 
 stances, would not have discharged his 
 duty to this House if he didnot submit 
 to j'our lordships the application which 
 he had made yesterday. 
 
 The application was then withdrawn. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.— Considering 
 my learned friend to say that this is hLs 
 case, and that he will not call any 
 more witnesses unless something which 
 may arise in the 'cross-examination 
 should induce him to do so, I now beg 
 leave to call Theodore Majochi, fbr the 
 purpose of putting one or two quea-* 
 tions to him. * 
 
 THEODORE MAJOCHI. 
 THEODORE MAJOCHI was put 
 
 to the bar and examined by Mr. 
 BROUGHAM: his answers were to 
 the following effect. — I know a person 
 of the name of Cavazzi, in London--- 
 he said he was a relation of persons of 
 that name in Milan. I knew him only 
 for a few days. I did not dine with 
 him last winter for eight or ten days 
 together. I dined with him twice. I 
 shewed him a letter that came from 
 nay wife at Milan, T shewed him a de- 
 spatch which I was to carry abroad to 
 Lord Stewart. I shewed him also a 
 numbei' of Napoleons. They were to 
 pay the expenses of my journey. I 
 believe there were eighty. I will not 
 swear I did not shew hira 150. I 
 counted eighty. I cannot swear that 
 I had been given more than I asked 
 for my expenses. I do not know a 
 person of the name of Bizzette, in 
 Liquorpond-strcet. I do not remem- 
 ber Liquorpoud-street. I came here 
 
166 
 
 TIIIAL OF THE QVEEV, 
 
 in a sack, and I went away in a trunk. 
 I don't know English. I remember 
 an Italian who served mt as a guide 
 about Loudon. I never asked his 
 name. I was told that he was a cabi- 
 net-maker. We spoke about the 
 King's funeral. I remember we came 
 to some street in which there was a 
 house at which 1 had to deliver a let- 
 ter. His servant told me he was not 
 at home because he had gone to see 
 the funeral of the King. On tliat or 
 some other day I went to find a person 
 in another house, whether it was large 
 or small I cannot say. On the first 
 day of my arrival in England, I went 
 to a house that I was told was the 
 Court of the King, for I had three or 
 four letters. I met there Mr. Powell. 
 I made an appointment to meet him at 
 his chambers at six o'clock in the even- 
 ing. I went several times to this great 
 house afterwards. It was said to be 
 the palace of the King. I do not re- 
 member that I had any conversation 
 with Mr. Powell respecting my ex- 
 penses. He did not say to me money 
 tvas no object, and that I might have 
 more if I wanted it. Mr. Powell never 
 held sucli language to me in the pre- 
 sence of any Laquais de Place. I re- 
 laember dining at the tavern with Ca- 
 vazzi. I do not know the name of it; 
 I sliould know the landlord if I saw 
 liira. (Mr. Long, the landlord, was 
 called in.) Yes, I know him. I em- 
 ployed him to wiite a letter for me to 
 Mr. Blackwell, and another to Mr. 
 Hyatt. I told him to write to the fol- 
 lowing effect to Mr. Blackwell. "I 
 have not found your brother at home, 
 hut I have left your letter in the hands 
 ef his wife— they are all well, and I 
 heg you to make my compliments to 
 the family and towards every hody in 
 it.'' ladded, that I had got a situation 
 to set out for Vienna. I desired Mr. 
 Long to write also as a matter of com- 
 pliment, that after I left them I could 
 nat eat, nor drink, nor sleep. (Laugh- 
 ter.) I wanted to marry Mrs. Black- 
 well, Mrs. Hughes, and every body in 
 the house. (Loud laughter.) I was 
 never in Paris. 
 
 In re-examination by the ATTOR- 
 NEY-GENERAL, witness said he had 
 received the Napoleons, to which al- 
 lusion had been made, to pay the ex- 
 penses of his journey. He afterwards 
 gave an account of hi« expenditure. 
 
 Earl GREY. — Are we to understand 
 that you can neither read nor write ? 
 
 -—I can only write my name, and 
 hardly that. 
 
 Earl GREY begged the House to 
 refer to page 141 of the minutes, and 
 then desired the int*^rpreter to read 
 from that page the following questions 
 and answers: — 
 
 " How long were yon in England at 
 that period when you lived with Mr, 
 Hyatt at Glocester? — This I cannot 
 remember, because I have not the book 
 in which I have marked the time. 
 
 " About how long were you in Mr. 
 Hyatt's service .'' — Ihis is the same an- 
 swer — because I have not the book m 
 which I put down how long I wat 
 th«-re." 
 
 Earl GREY then desired the wit- 
 ness to be asked if he adhered to these 
 answers. 
 
 After considerable difficulty in mak- 
 ing the witness understand the ques- 
 tion, he said he had no book of any sort 
 whatever, for he could neither read 
 nor write. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL. — 
 Am I to understand that the Queen's 
 Attorney-General does not contemplate 
 any further cross-examination at any 
 time ? 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.— At no time. 
 
 SUMMING UP OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 The SOLICITOR GENERAL then 
 
 rose to sum up the evidence to the 
 House. He commenced by stating, 
 that his learned friend (Mr. Brougham) 
 having closed the long and elaborate 
 cross-examination of Theodore Ma- 
 jochi, and as the whole of the evidence 
 in support of the bill was now before 
 their lordships, the duty devolvtd upon 
 him of summing up to their lordships 
 the leading points of that evidence, in 
 support of the allegations contained in 
 the preamble of the bill of pains and 
 penalties against her Majesty the 
 Queen. He trusted that, before he 
 entered upon this summing up, their 
 lordships would allow him a few mo- 
 ments to justify himself, and his learned 
 friends who acted with him, as to the 
 course pursued by them, and the prin- 
 ciples by which- they were actuated, 
 in conducting this most painful and 
 anxious inquiry. The moment the At- 
 torney-General had received his in- 
 structions to support this bill, he, to- 
 gether with his learned fi'iends wh« 
 were appointed to assist him, directed 
 
SOLICITOR-GENERAL 8 SPEECH, 
 
 167 
 
 their most minute and anxious atten- ' 
 tion to collect all the rvidenco that it 
 would be their duty to adduce before 
 their lordships upon such an occasion. 
 They lost not a monoent in weighing 
 well and considering all the materials, 
 and every other evidence which could 
 bear upon this great question. They 
 collected toj^'ethcr and digested every 
 thing wincli they thought material to 
 this paramount inquiry, without re- 
 gard to either the intluence or the im- 
 pression which any parts of that evi- 
 dence were calculated to create when 
 it came before their lordships. In so 
 doing they felt that they were per- 
 forming their duty fully, fairly, and 
 candidly to their lordships. Now that 
 the evidence had been gone through, 
 they triBted that their lerdshipsthou^jht 
 they had fully discharged the duty im- 
 poBcd upon them. They felt that in 
 the progress of this cause they were 
 Dot to make themselves a party to the 
 inquiry ; but to pursue it according to 
 their lordships' instructions, fairly, can- 
 didly, and honestly. Having said thus 
 much in behalf of himself and his 
 }«arned colleagues, the duty now de- 
 volved upon him of pointing their lord- 
 ships' attention to the leading lact.s, as 
 disclosed in the evidence before them. 
 The diffic<ilfy which he had to encoun- 
 ter, in performing this duty, was, as 
 their lordships must be aware, greatly 
 augmented by- the circumstance, that 
 as the Itarned counsel for the Queen 
 kad yet to make their answer to the 
 oase, he was left without any know- 
 ledge of any of the arguments with 
 which they meant to combat the pro- 
 visions <?f the bill, or of any of the facts 
 npon which the defence of her Majesty 
 the Queen mainly rested. All thwt he 
 could therefore do, iu the performance 
 of bis present duty, was to enforce 
 •pon their lordship's attention the 
 nanner in which the case at present 
 stood, and Jiow the evidence adduced 
 wade out and supported the allegations 
 In the preamble ot the bill. He trusted 
 that, upon reference to that evidence, 
 which he would not now give their 
 lordships the trouble of reading, they 
 would find the preamble mainly sus- 
 tained. Before he impressed the lead- 
 log facts opon their lordships' memory, 
 he begged to state that he should care- 
 . fuMy abstain from either mis-statement 
 or exaggeration. His duty was not to 
 taipose or to influence by any distorted 
 •Iftteiiieat: allthat was required of him 
 
 was, that he should snmuptheevidenca 
 with truth and accuracy, and then 
 point out how it applied to the charges 
 upon which the bill was founded. If 
 it were not expected of him to incur 
 any charge of this mis-statement, still 
 less, he hoj^ed, was it expected of him 
 to Use the slii^htest expression deroga- 
 tory from the station and dignity of 
 her Majesty the Queen. No such ex- 
 pressions should escape his lips. The 
 Queen was here on trial before their 
 lordships : one side — and that the case 
 against her — had only been heard. He, 
 thert fore, was bound in strict law, and 
 so were thtir lordships, to consider 
 her Majesty innocent of those foul 
 charges ascribed to her until they 
 heard her defence. None could pro- 
 nounce her guilty until their lordships* 
 verdict decided and justified that im- 
 putation. He and his learned friends 
 had been charged with scattering ca- 
 lumnies abroad, and throwing dirt 
 against the character of the Queen. 
 But, though this charge had been insi- 
 diously disseminated, he, and those 
 witii him, felt guiltless of the imputa- 
 tion. They had, throughout, stated 
 nothing which they had reason to be- 
 lieve would not be satisfactorily proved. 
 If calumnies had been uttered, they 
 belonged to another quarter; that 
 quarter alone ought to be called uj)ou 
 to account for them. Before he went 
 further, he would beg leave to call 
 their lordships' attention to the nature 
 of the charge set forth in the preamble 
 of the Bill ef Pains and Penalties 
 against her Majesty the Queen. That 
 preamble began by stating, that her 
 Majesty in the year 1814 had, in Milan, 
 eng^iged in thecapacityof a menial sei> 
 vant, a man named Bartholomew Ber- 
 gami ; that she had immediately after 
 that time, committed disgruccfnl and 
 unbecoming familiarities with that per- 
 son ; that she had raised him in her 
 household, and loaded him with ho- 
 nours; that she had placed several 
 members of his family in various situa- 
 tions of honor and rank about her per-* 
 son ; and that she laid afterwards car- 
 ried on, for a considerable period, aii 
 adulterous intercourse with him. That 
 was the head of the charges against the 
 Queen, as contained in the preamble 
 of the Bill ; and it was his duty to ask 
 their lordships if that charge had not 
 been substantially made out in evi- 
 dence. He must now beg leave to 
 carry back their lordship.^' aUentioo 
 
16S 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 in point of time to what was done by i 
 her Majesty when slie first set out from 
 Milan to Naples. He thought it right, 
 for the sake of perspicuity, to take up 
 the subject at tiie time he had just 
 mentioned, and then pursue it from 
 that period up to the latest time that 
 the Queen's conduct had been men- 
 tioned in evidence. It appeared, from 
 the evidence before their lordships, 
 that her Majesty took Bergami into 
 her service as a courier, at Milan, in 
 the yeaj- 1814; he had previously lived 
 in a menial situation with General 
 Pino, his wages then being three livres 
 a day. It was also stated by the wit- 
 ness, that for the first fortnight after 
 the Queen took Bergami into her ser- 
 vice he waited behind her Majesty's 
 table. At that time a youth, of whom 
 their lordships had heard, named Wil- 
 liam Austin, was in the constant habit 
 of sleeping in her Majesty's apartment; 
 but the Queen gave directions when 
 she set out from Milan, that another 
 bed-room should in future be provided 
 for him, as he was advancing to a pe- 
 riod in life when it wonld be unfit for 
 him to sleen any longer in the chamber 
 she occupied. A separate apartment 
 •was accordingly provided for Austin 
 on the arrival of the. Queen at Naples. 
 When her Majesty arrived there, she 
 slept at a country house. On the night 
 after her arrival at Naples the Queen 
 went to the opera. It was here mast 
 material for their lordships to attend 
 throughout to all the relative situations 
 of the Queen's bed-room and Bergami's, 
 who was then her courier. At Naples, 
 the communication between them was 
 of this kind. There was a private pas- 
 sage, which terminated at one side in 
 a cabinet, that led to Bcrgami's sleep- 
 ing-room ; while on the other side of 
 the same passage was the bed- room of 
 the Queen; so that the occupant of 
 either one or the other room could tra- 
 verse this passage without interrup- 
 tion, for the passage had no communi- 
 cation with any other apartments than 
 the two he had mentioned. The wit- 
 ness, their lordships would recollect, 
 had stated, that on the evening upon 
 .^•which her Majesty went to the opera 
 "at Naples, she returned home at a 
 ■Very early hour, and went from her 
 apartment into the cabinet contiguous 
 to Bergami's. That she soon returned 
 to her own room, where her female at- 
 tendant was in waiting, and gave strict 
 orders that youug Austio should not be 
 
 admitted into her room that night. 
 The manner and conduct of the Queen 
 upon that occasion attracted the notice 
 of the servant, who, excited by what 
 she had noticed on the preceding night, 
 examined the state of the beds on the 
 following morning. And what was the 
 result of that examination ? She had 
 stated that the small travelling bed had 
 not been slept upon at all on that night, 
 but that the larger bed had the im- 
 pression of being slept in by two per- 
 sons; and she further said, in answer 
 to a question from one of their lord- 
 ships, which could not be evaded, that 
 she had also observed in tlie bed two 
 marks of a description which but too 
 clearly indicated whathad passed there 
 in the course of the night. He had in- 
 deed heard that ntne of the witnesses 
 had deposed before their lordships to 
 the actual fact of adultery ; hut to such 
 an assertion he would reply, that if those 
 facts were true, no person of rational 
 mind could doubt that on that night the 
 adulterous intercourse was commenced 
 which formed the subject of the pre- 
 sent unhappy-investigation. Upon the 
 sort of proof required in cases of adul- 
 tery, he should merely observe, that he 
 did not recollect a single instance, in 
 cases of adultery, where the actual fact 
 was fully proved in evidence. The. 
 crime was always to be inferred froni 
 accompanying circumstances, which 
 left no doubt of the fact upon the mind 
 of a rational and intelligent man. On 
 this point of proof he would beg leave 
 to quote the opinion of one of the most 
 enlightened judges that ever sat in this 
 country. He had received this opi- 
 nion from one of his learned friends, 
 who had taken notes of it at the time it 
 was pronounced by the learned judge. 
 It was in th-e case of Loveden v. Love- 
 den, before Sir William Scott, in the 
 Consistory Court, in the year 1809. 
 The learned judge then stated, that 
 there was no necessity in a case of that 
 nature to prove the actual fact of the 
 adultery, for that could not be proved 
 in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred, 
 where there was still no doubt of its 
 having taking place. The uniform 
 rule was, that where facts were proved 
 which directly led to the conclusion 
 that the act of adultery had been com- 
 mitted, such proof must be taken as 
 sufficient. Now let the house for a 
 moment look at the case in this light: 
 — Suppose an adulterous intercours* 
 really to have existed, how would tUat 
 
SOLICITOR GENERALS SPRFXH. 
 
 169 
 
 intercourse have manifested itself? 
 How hut from tiie habitual conduct of 
 the parties? To screen such an inti- 
 iTiucy tVoin the eyes of attendlants was 
 impossible ; and let their lordships di- 
 rect their attention to the scenes which 
 had been constantly occurring — to the 
 gcen.s which in continued detail, had 
 been described by the witnesses. 
 Their lordships would remember the 
 ball whicii took place at the house up- 
 on the sea-shore while the Princess was 
 at Naples. To that bail her Royal 
 Hijjhness wrut, accompanied only (for 
 the purpose of dressing and prepara- 
 tion) by the waitiiig-maid Duraont, and 
 by Bergaaii ; two apai tments, a dress- 
 iriig-room, and an an ti room being al 
 Jotted to her use. For her first cha- 
 racter, that of a Ncapolilan peasant, 
 the Princess was dressed by the wait- 
 ing-m^id ; she went into the ball-room, 
 stayed a short time, returned for the 
 purpose of changing her dress, and did 
 change it entirely; the chamber-maid 
 all tiie while being: left in the anti- 
 room, and the courier being in her 
 dressing-room during the operation. 
 Now the house could not but have 
 noticed the style of Mr. Williams's 
 cross-examination as to tliat transac- 
 tion. The witness had merely been 
 asked whether there were not persons 
 of rank and consideration in tlie ball- 
 room below. But it had been said 
 that, even admitting all these facts, 
 they did not amount to evidence of 
 adultery. Could any man look at a 
 Princess, locked up in her bed -room 
 for nearly dn hour, and changing her 
 dress with the assistance of her courier, 
 and entertain any doubt upon the sub- 
 ject ? The thing did not stop there; 
 there wa'^anothrr change of dress; her 
 Royal Highness assumed the character 
 of a Turkish lady; and in that charac- 
 ter, for the second time, went down 
 stairs arm in arm with this courier, this 
 common foutman, this man accustomed 
 to wait behind her chair; and what 
 happened then ? Why, almost instantly, 
 the courier returned. (The Solicitor- 
 Oeneral then repeatt-d the other heads 
 cfMajochi's testimony.) All this, how- 
 ever, rested upon the testimony of Ma- 
 jochi, who was, of course, a witness un- 
 worthy of bfiicf. That witness had 
 been cross-examined once, twice, and 
 because Carlton-hoiisc had somehow 
 been introduced, he had just now been 
 cross-examined for the third time : he 
 (the Solicitor-G^neral) had atteiuted 
 22 
 
 most diligently to the first cress-exami- 
 nation ; he had since read the evidence 
 as it appeared upon the minutes; and 
 he did declare that, as it appeared to 
 him, during a cross-examination of 
 seven hours, extending over a period 
 of three years, and going through a va- 
 riety of complicated facts, in no one 
 instance had that witness been betrayed 
 into inconsistency. Certainly the wit- 
 ness had repeatedly used the phrase 
 (perhaps of equivocal import,) " I do 
 not remember ;" and the changes which 
 had been rung upon that circumstance 
 might produce an impression upon low 
 minds, although it could produce none 
 upon the minds of their lordships. But 
 it was impossible not to perceive the 
 artifice — the let us have a few more 
 " non mi rir.ordos ;" and it was equally- 
 impossible not to perceive that to the 
 questions proposed the witness could 
 return no other answer. The learned 
 counsel then recapitulated the evidence 
 of Gaetano Paturzo, which^ he con- 
 tended was calculated to naake a deep 
 and lasting impression. Before he 
 quitted Naples he begged to allude to 
 what had taken place at the Theatre of 
 Saint Carlos. The wife of the heir ap- 
 parent-of the throne of Great Britain, 
 at that time holding the supreme go- 
 vernment of the country, having about 
 her a suite of ladies and gentlemen, was 
 desirous of going in private. Surely 
 she might have selected some respecta- 
 ble person of her suite, some respecta* 
 ble inhabitant of Naples, some proper 
 and decent companion, without mate- 
 rially infringing upon the privacy of 
 the ti-ansaction ; but she chose her 
 chambermaid and her courier. It was 
 a rainy night ; dark, gloomy, and tem- 
 pestuous ; a hired carriage was drawn 
 up at a private door at the bottom of 
 the garden; they traversed the ter-' 
 race, the garden; got into the hire<l 
 carriage at the private door, proceeded 
 to the theatre, and there met with such 
 a reception as obliged tliera to retreat 
 and return home. To what conclusion 
 did this, occurrence lead the mind of 
 every man acquainted with such trans- 
 actions. He next adverted to the oc- 
 currences at Genoa, where the cham- 
 ber of Bergami was again immediately 
 contiguous to that of the Princess, and 
 where numerous instances occurred, 
 clearly demonstrating the familiarity 
 which subsisted between them. There 
 too hhe became surrounded with the 
 family of her favourite, and received 
 
no 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 hh cltild, his mother, and his sister, in- 
 to her suite. To another poiut, — It 
 appeared that the Princess, while at 
 Genoa, had gone to look at a hou.<ie in 
 a sQcliided -spot, and at some distance 
 from the city. What was the recom- 
 mendation of thathfuise? Tliat it was 
 far from Genoa ; far from the English. 
 Lettheir lordships look to the evidence 
 of Sacchi,and they wonld find — what? 
 Why, that during the whole of the jour- 
 ney through Germany and through the 
 Tyrol, the greatest anxiety had bcrn 
 shewrn by her Royal Highness to avoid 
 the English upon every occasion : the 
 first question to be put on arriving at 
 any place was, whether English of 
 rank were at hand f If that question 
 was answered in the affirmalive, the 
 party proceeded to other quarters. 
 From Genoa, being joined by Lady 
 Charlotte Campbell, the rrincess pro- 
 ceeded to Milan. Lady Charlotte 
 Ciampbcll, however, did not travel 
 with her Royal Highness, and sliortly 
 afte^ quitted her altogether; from 
 M'hieh time no English lady of rank or 
 station remained in her suite. A lady 
 of honor was then it appeared to be 
 procured at Milan. And who had 
 been chosen to fill that situation ? T'.'.e 
 sister of Bergami. No foreigner of 
 rank^ no English lady of respectabi- 
 lity ; but the sister of Bergami, the 
 Countess of Oldi. Was that lady in any 
 vay fitted for the office ? The Princess 
 spoke little Italian : the Countess spoke 
 only the Italian of the lovvcr orders,and 
 no French. They were so situated, that 
 little communication, and d« conver- 
 sation, could take pl;\ce between tiiem. 
 It was upon these facts, which had 
 bcea called triiiing by the other side, 
 but which he did not look upon as tri- 
 iiing j it was upon those incidental 
 facts — facts which could not be invent- 
 ed or exaggerated by witnesses, that 
 the learned gentleman reiied for con- 
 ^rmatidn of his case; and tho.>e per- 
 sons must wilfully shut tiieir eyes 
 against conviction, whose inferences 
 juad conclusions were other than his 
 own. These facts were followed by 
 otiierfs, not less conehisive. There was 
 one rircnmstance of the gold chain at 
 Venice — and the still more prominent 
 fact of Dumont bavins: actnaily seen 
 Berga^ii pass througli her chamber in- 
 to the room of the Priueo.'^s. In cases 
 like the present every thing was to be 
 inferred tVoni llie general conduct ftf the 
 parties ; and it had been clearly shown 
 
 that the Princess and Bergami wpre 
 constantly conducting themselves like 
 lovers, or like man and wife during th< 
 day, while every preparation was made 
 to prevent the interruption of their 
 intercourse during the night. Th« 
 familiarities at the Villa d'Este were not 
 spoken to by one, two. or three wit- 
 nesses, but by such a body of testimony 
 as set doubt at defiance. ' Walking arm 
 in arm in the gardens, alone in a cano^ 
 upon the lake — embracing and kissing 
 each other — where such intimacies 
 were proved even between persons in 
 an equal rank of life, accompanied by 
 a constant anxiety for access to the 
 bed-chamber of each other, no court 
 could refuse to draw the inference thai 
 adultery had been committed. To go 
 through the whole seties of evidence 
 would only be to f;.tigue the House : 
 but what would be said to the testimo- 
 ny of Ragazzoni with respect to the stn- 
 tueSjtothe figures of Adam and Ever He 
 remembered that in the very ca.'^e upou 
 which he had already stated fo'tlieHouse 
 the- judgment of ISiir William Seoit — iu 
 that very case a letter had been pro- 
 duced written by the lady to her h!vcr,in 
 which she related some eir<:umstan«;ea 
 of an indecent nature. To that letter, 
 as evidence, the learned jr.dge had most 
 particularly adverted; saying, that no 
 woman would have so written to a maa 
 unless an adulterous intercour.<e had 
 taken place between them. That 
 observation applied most fully to the 
 case in point. HerRoyal Hipmpss went 
 subseqnenU5;to Catania, and he begged 
 to call their lordshit'S attention to whut 
 passed there, because it was mast im- 
 portant. There was a particular ar- 
 rangement of apartments, which ta 
 consequence of the iudispo.'ition of 
 Bergami, was afterwards altered. Ker 
 Royal PlijjhncVs slept in the room ad- 
 joining that of Mademoiselle D'.unont 
 and her sister, Marietta Bvon, and oa 
 the other side of that room slept the 
 Countess of Oldi. Bergami being ill, 
 he was put into the room previously 
 onctjpied by the Countess of Oldi, and 
 the Counters was placed in the apart- 
 ment of her Royal Highness. It v.ould 
 be seen, therefore, that up to this period 
 Dumont and her- sister slept between 
 the apartment occupied by Bergami 
 and that allotted to her Royal High- 
 ness. They were in the habit of gOin j 
 to breakfast about nine o'clock; tb» 
 door which commnoicated with their 
 room was sometiwes open, soaaetiaies 
 
SOLICITOR-GENERALS SPinCH. 
 
 171 
 
 closoil ; but onoue particular morning, 
 hHppeniii^ to remain beyond the usual 
 time (to tl/e b«st of her recollection, 
 bir sister being present,) about the 
 hour of ten, her Royal Highness, car- 
 rying the pillows on which she was 
 •'^custonici to sleep, came out of the 
 room of Bergami. She saw Duraont — 
 ffhe eyed her, and passed into her own 
 room, contrary to her usual custom, 
 without saying a;iything. He believed 
 that no questions were pat as to that 
 part of the case by the learned counsel 
 on the other side; but their lordships, 
 in ihc discharge of that important duty, 
 which had been cast upon them, 
 thouight it necessary that some ques- 
 tions should be asked, to ascertain whe- 
 ther a large portion oftime had cot been 
 passed by her lloyal Highness in the 
 bcd-rooni of Bergami. Their lordships 
 anked, whether Dumont had quitted 
 the room that morning? To which she 
 answered, that she had not. How 
 long had she been awake? She an- 
 swered two hours. Whether, during 
 that time, her Royal Highness passed 
 through the room ? Her answer was, 
 BO. Then the inference was, that cer- 
 tainly for two hours her Royal High- 
 ness had been in the bed-room of the 
 courier. When he stated this fact, he 
 wa« aware that it would be again said, 
 that it depended on the evidence of 
 Dnmont, and therefore it became neces- 
 Mty, as much of what he had to intro- 
 duce rested on her credit, fortified 
 and supported as it was by corrobora- 
 tive statements, to say a word or two 
 with respect to what had been thrown 
 eut on the other side, for the purpost* 
 
 of impeaching her testimony. The 
 
 learned counsel then ingeniously com- 
 mented on the letters which had been 
 produced on the cross-examination of 
 bamont, and contended that they were 
 clearly written by her, not in sincerity, 
 but for the purpose of meeting the eye 
 of the Princess and Bergami, with a 
 view to promote the interests of her 
 sister. If what the counsel on the other 
 tide were saying was correct — if there 
 were no ground for casting an imputa- 
 tiofi on the character of her Royal 
 I Highness — if there were nothing mys- 
 terious in the conduct of this courier 
 — if Bergami were advanced in the ser- 
 vice, solely on account of his merits, 
 and the respect he bore to an honour- 
 able mistr«-fi8"if siich were his situation, 
 and the rliaracter of his connection, 
 what was the inevitable conclusion to 
 
 which Hied? Could there be a more 
 desirable witness than that man him- 
 self, to contradict the testimony of Dn- 
 mont? She sjioke of his conduct when 
 tlie Ihree parties only were present; 
 not on one occasion, but many. If the 
 connection of Bergami with her Royal 
 Highness were such as was alleged ih 
 thp bill, he certainly could not appear 
 at Iheir lordships' bar ; but, if it were 
 a pure connection, unsullied by those 
 circumstances which he (the Solicitor- 
 General) had stated, why was he not 
 opposed to this witness? Why was he 
 not brought forward to contradict D»- 
 mont —to show that a base attack was 
 made on tlie character and honour of 
 the mo!*t amiable Princess in the world 
 — to prove that Dumont had been 
 falsely accusing her Royal Highness 
 vvith crimes ihat v/ere never commlt- 
 tt'd? Having made those observation* 
 on the statement of his learned friend, 
 relative to the test'imony of this wit- 
 ness, he called on iheir lordships to 
 consider the whole of the evidence, to 
 take all the story togetlier and to «ee 
 whether she was ultimately contradict- 
 ed in any point that could destroy the 
 inference to which her testimony must 
 evidently lead. He asked of their 
 lordships to mark theH?videncc on both 
 sides, and to mark how the case then 
 stood. At Milan this man had been 
 employed as a courier in General Pino's 
 service. He afterwards was admitted 
 to the same rank in her Royal High- 
 ness's household. But in the course of 
 a few months he became her Royal 
 Highness's equerry, then her chamber- 
 laiti, then, by her influence, knight of 
 Malta, then Baron de la Fnnchini, then 
 kni^jht of the Holy Sepulchre at Jeru- 
 salem, and then Grand Master of the 
 order which her Royal Highness her- 
 self created. They would find him 
 also possessed of a considerable pro- 
 perty at the very gates of Milan. The 
 man who had been a few years before 
 living in a prison (for what reason he 
 knew not),who had received three livre* 
 adayfromGeneralPmo— they found thlg 
 man suddenly covered with orders and' 
 honours. For what cause ? for what 
 service ? for what talents ? He asked 
 this because, when their lordships con- 
 sidered it together with the other facts, 
 it strengthened and confirmed the 
 statement of the witnesses, and made 
 it almost impossible to adduce any 
 other cause for the extraordinary love 
 which her Royal Higbne55 raaoife&ted 
 
172 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEI^. 
 
 towards this man, but that which was 
 alleged. But to proceed. A vessel 
 was hired for the purpose of making a 
 long voyage, and her Royal Highness 
 went on board at Augusta. (The So- 
 licitor General here repeated the evi- 
 dence relative to the transactions on 
 board the polacre.) Here were five 
 •witnesses speaking of what passed on 
 board the polacre — deposing to cir- 
 cnmstances that took place in the pre- 
 sence of a person who was in the snite 
 of her Royal Highness at the time, 
 and who was still in her service. Why, 
 then, were they not contradicted? As 
 the case now stood, had he not stated 
 sn^cient to convince their lordships' 
 minds of what was passing, at that im- 
 portant period, between those parties? 
 The learned gentleman now recapitu- 
 lated the remainder of the evidence, 
 adverting to the licentiousness wliich 
 marked the proceedings at the Ba- 
 rona ; the dance of the man, Mahomed ; 
 the midnight occurrences at Cliarnitz, 
 "where Dumont was driven from her 
 Royal High ness's chamber to make way 
 for Bergami ; the events at Carlsruhe ; 
 and the subsequent transactions at 
 Baden, Vienna, and Trieste : at which 
 latter place Bergami was seen coming 
 out of his own room in his drawers 
 and slippers, and going into that of 
 the Countess of Oldi, which had a 
 communication with th& chamber' of 
 the Princess. All those facts proved 
 an adulterous intercourse at that pe- 
 riod, and by circumstances too, which 
 mutually confirmed each other. He 
 would HOW call their lordships' lecol- 
 lection to the evidence of two wit- 
 nesses — the last that were called be- 
 fore them — he meant RastelU and Sac- 
 chi. (He here re-stated their evidence, 
 and contended with great force that 
 they confirmed in every particular tlie 
 testimony of those persons .who had 
 gone before them.) 
 
 The Earl of LAUDERDALE rose 
 to propose that the counsel for her 
 Majesty shojild be asked whether it 
 was now their intention to open the 
 case for the defence, or to ask the 
 delay which had been agreed to. 
 
 DIVORCE CLAUSE. 
 
 Lord LONSDALE in this stage of 
 the proceedings conceived that it was 
 not improjx r te remind a noble lord 
 near him (Lord Liverpool) oi observa- 
 tions he had made oil a former occa- 
 
 sion, respecting one of the provisions 
 of this Bill, and to ask that noble lord 
 what determination he had come to on 
 that subject. His own feelings, he ad- 
 miirted, and he believed the fttlings of 
 many of their-lordship.'*, were, that it 
 was extremely desirable to separate 
 the two provisions of degradation and 
 divorce in the Bill. His impression 
 was — an impression in whi<;h a large 
 proportion of that House concurred 
 with him, he believed — that the con- 
 clusion which their lordships should 
 come to in the Bill. ought to be con- 
 formable to the evidence alone given 
 at the bar. Where an offence was 
 charged there should be-no aggrava- 
 tion proposed in the punishment. The 
 measure of the punishment ought ra- 
 ther to fall short of the offence. He 
 therefore hoped the noble lord would* 
 state whether there was any determi- 
 nation to withdraw the chiuse of di- 
 vorce. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, 
 that it was utterly impossible that any 
 alteration should be made in the Bill 
 till the whole case was closed, till the 
 question of the second reading was 
 disposed of, and the Bill should be 
 committed. What he had stated, on 
 occasion of discussing the motion of a 
 noble baron, was stated in consequi nee 
 of imputations thrown out respecting 
 the pi ovision alluded to in the bill, and 
 insinuations made not only in that 
 house, but elsewhere, that divorce was 
 the object of the bill. He had dis- 
 claimed that that had been the object 
 of the Bill ; he had then stated the ob- 
 ject of the Bill to be public justice ; 
 lie had then stated the object of the 
 Bill to be to uphold the honour of the 
 country, and not to relieve the illus- 
 trious individual at the head of the 
 state. He had then stated that it might 
 be made a separate proposition, and it 
 was open, to the House to deal with 
 that as they might think proper. He 
 could now most distinctly savjithatthe 
 illustrious individual alluded to had no 
 M'ish whatever that the Bill should ope-r 
 rate as a measure of personal relief. 
 He (Lord Liverpool) had introduced 
 the provision of divorce as a plain 
 and fair inference from the other pro- 
 vision of degradation, if that were 
 made out. If, however, a strong feel- 
 ing existed in the house or in the coun-, 
 try, founded on religious considera- 
 tions, against this provision, he was 
 perfectly willing to withdraw it. He 
 
DEBATE ON MODE OF DEFENCE. 
 
 17S 
 
 wished to confine himself to those ob- 
 Bervations — he wished to set the illus- 
 trious individual right on this subject. 
 The illustrious individual did not wish 
 for it as a measure of personal relief. 
 (Hear, hear.) 
 
 Earl GREY agreed ^ith what the 
 noble earl had stated respecting the 
 propriety of preserving their judg- 
 ments unbiassed till they could come 
 to a full decision, when the whole case 
 should be closed. When he therefore 
 stated any thing hypothetically, he 
 hoped hfi would not be understood as 
 prejudging on the one side or the other. 
 A more unseasonable proposition than 
 that suggested by the noble lord, who 
 first spoke on the other side, he had 
 never heard. No answer that the noble 
 earl(Livei pool) could hs£ve given could 
 have the effect of warranting such a 
 proposition. (Hear, hear.) It seemed 
 to him to be a proposition to restrain 
 the counsel at the bar within certain 
 limits in their defence. The clause 
 alluded to in the Bill could be con- 
 sidered only when the whole case was 
 closed, and the Bill came under consi- 
 dei-ation in a committee. Now it was 
 .impossible that any alteration whatever 
 conld be proposed or made. The de- 
 fence was, therefore to be directed 
 against the whole of the Bill, as it stood 
 at present. It was not only a Bill of 
 Pains and Penalties, but a Bill of Di- 
 vorce. That Avas the state of the Bill 
 now before their lordships ; and to 
 thatextent it was the duty of the coun- 
 sel to direct the evidence for the de- 
 fence. 
 
 Earl GREY explained. He had un- 
 derstood his lordship's object to have 
 been that counsel should be instructed 
 not to make any defence against the 
 clause of divorce. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL said he 
 had put no such construction on the 
 noble lord's meaning. He had only 
 conceived the noble lord to have put 
 a question to him before the counsel 
 should be called on to state the course 
 they proposed to pursue. 
 
 Earl GREY begged the noble lord's 
 pardon, for he had misunderstood his 
 object. 
 
 THE QUEEN'S DEFENCE. 
 
 The LORD - CHANCELLOR (to 
 
 Mr. Brougham.) — I anderstand it to 
 
 be the wish of the House to ask you 
 
 Imwyon propose to proceed? whether 
 
 you propose to proceed to state the de- 
 fence now, or to take the delay agreed 
 to be allowed? 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.— Amid the new 
 and accumulating difficulties which, 
 every step we proceed, are rising 
 around us — even now we are met with 
 a new bill. (Order, order.) 
 
 The LORD- CHANCELLOR.— 
 When counsel are ordered to with- 
 draw, they are understood to be pre- 
 cluded from making any observations 
 on what takes place in the House. It 
 the counsel act otherwise, the order for 
 withdrawing must be enforced, and 
 you will understand now that it is the 
 pleasure of the Hoi^se that you make, 
 no observation on what has been shid 
 by any of the lords. You are asked a 
 question, and you are to confine your- 
 self to the answering of that question. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.— I cannot say 
 " Yea," or " Nay," to that question. I 
 tell what I ask; I speak not of justice, 
 but what I trust your lordships will in 
 compassion concede. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR.— Mr. 
 Brougham, this house does nothing in 
 compassion. That is a mode of address 
 which you ought not to use. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.— Then I make 
 no appeal to the compassion of your 
 lordships. I thought that an appeal to 
 your mercy was the more respectfaj 
 mode of presenting to you the request 
 I had to make, and therefore I used 
 that mode of address. But now I 
 stand on my right. After the great 
 mass of evidence which has been pro- 
 duced, 1 throw myself on the justice 
 of your lordships. I, not having had 
 weeks and months beforehand to make 
 myself acquainted with the details, as 
 the counsel on the other side have had, 
 cannot be expected all at once to be 
 prepared with an answer to the case 
 on the other side ; I therefore ask till 
 to-morrow to answer your lordships' 
 question ; and if yonr lordships would 
 meet at twelve instead of ton, that 
 would give two hours of time for con- 
 sideration. 
 
 From further questions, it was coU 
 leeted that Mr. Brougham wished, 
 as was consistent with the proceedings 
 at Nisi Prius, to make his speech or 
 defence, and to reserve to himself the 
 right, after that speech was made, of 
 declaring whether he would call mU 
 uessesornot* 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL thought 
 th4t to-morrow the <^uestion ought tq 
 
174 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 be pnt, *' Whether the application of 
 t«e counsel of the Queen continued the 
 iame as it had been to-day?' If, how- 
 ever, it turned out to be that he wished 
 to ffo throuj^h his case, or that he wished 
 ftH- an adjuurunient to a future period, 
 his lordship was of opinion that neither 
 requestought, injustice, to be refused. 
 If, on the other hand, a middle course 
 Trere suggested, which would leave the 
 counsel at liberty either to call his 
 witnesses immediately, or to delay 
 them until a future occasion, that 
 would be a point requiring very con- 
 siderable deliberation. 
 
 The Earl of ROSSLYN did not con- 
 eeive that the learned counsel had 
 made the latter proposition in the form 
 of an application. He only said that 
 jintil the end of his speech he ought not 
 to be called upon to make his option. 
 
 Adjourned till half-past eleven to- 
 morrow. 
 
 FRIDAY, September 8th. 
 The LORO-CHANCELLOR in- 
 formed Mr. Brougham, ithat he had 
 been commanded by the House to ask 
 in what manner the counsel for her 
 Majesty intended to proceed in her 
 defence? 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said, it is our 
 ■wish to proceed forthwith. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR asked 
 if the counsel meant by proceeding 
 forth \vith, to open the case then, and 
 to follow it up by producing evidence, 
 or (lid they mean merely to open the 
 case, and afterwards pray time to pro- 
 cure evidence? 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said, that there 
 were two cases with respect to evi- 
 dence, by either of which they might 
 subsequently see cause to guide the 
 defence. The fii-st was, whether they 
 would call any evidence whatever; 
 the second, they might be able imme- 
 diately to produce part of their evi- 
 dence, but yet they might require time 
 to bring over other witnesses. He en- 
 treated the indulgence of the House, 
 after having been thrown by their de- 
 cisions into a situation of such great 
 perplexity, that he mieht be allowed 
 to proceed with the defence, and not 
 be asked any question as to his deter- 
 mination of bringing evidence or con- 
 tinuing the defence to its conclusion in 
 that stage of the proceeding. 
 
 Counsel were ordered to withdraw. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE wished to tell the 
 
 House v/hy he wqvild recommend their 
 
 lordships to yield forthwith to the re- 
 quest of the Queen's Attorney-Gcne- 
 ral. He had much experience in his 
 time in other courts. He had never 
 understood that a counsel was boiud 
 before he commenced his defence, to 
 state the condition of Ins case with re- 
 spect to evidence. He had olten known 
 questions to be asked by judges upon 
 that point, and an answer rel'used. The 
 reason why the courts allowed thii 
 seeming breach of courtesy was plain. 
 A counsel rising for the defence might 
 be unsettled in his own mind as to call- 
 ing evidence. He mi^ht wait till he 
 had tried what would be the effect of 
 his address on the minds of the jury ; 
 he might be induced afterwards either 
 to call evidence or trust to the effect 
 of his observations ; or he might ha e 
 determined not to call witnessts, and 
 afterwards might find it neceejary to 
 alter his resolution for the sake of 
 strengthening his case. In the pro- 
 ceeding before the House, he wished 
 in all cases, where it was practicable, 
 to assimilate to the lower courts. Let 
 their lordships examine with him what 
 was the practice of those courts in re- 
 ference to the point in question. The 
 prosecutor had the power in those 
 courts of deciding on the time in which 
 he might choose the case to come on* 
 If he was not* ready on the time firj^t 
 appointed, tlie court was always ready, 
 on sufficient cause being sht-wn, to put 
 off the trial till the next convenient 
 period. But when all obstacles were 
 removed, and the trial had begun, it 
 was then too late to stop; go on he 
 must, whatever reasons might be plead- 
 ed for that purpose. The defendant 
 in those courts was equally bound to 
 go on, and proceed with his case to 
 the conclusion. And why was he so 
 bound? Because such was the pre- 
 cision with which the charges were 
 stated in the declaration or indictment, 
 that the defendant could not but be 
 prepared to meet the charges, as fa* 
 as previous knowledge of the circum- 
 stances and places would conduce to 
 that effect. If afterwards it could be 
 proved by the defendant that he had 
 not received suflaciently clear intima- 
 tion of the nature, of the charges, and 
 of the time when they were committed, 
 to allow him fair opportunity of con- 
 futing the accusation — if he could prove 
 this, and shew a reasonable probability 
 that he might have confuted tlie acco- 
 sation, had he been allowed that p ret 
 
DEBATE ON MODE OP DEFENCE. 
 
 /J 
 
 Hfliiunr) knowledge which, the law re- 
 <(uired th;«t he shouhJ have/ he would, 
 io all probability, succeed in setting 
 the verdict obtained against him aside. 
 This was the spirit of the law of Eng- 
 land, which he recommended to their 
 lordships' imitation, because it was a 
 law of humanity and mrrcy. He would 
 have them more especially, as they pro- 
 fessed to do it, imitate the practice of 
 the courts. 
 
 The Eail of LAUDERDALE ex- 
 patiated on the impropriety and in- 
 eonveniencies likely to result from 
 
 ?;ittnting the request, and was, there- 
 ore, adverse to acceding to the pro- 
 position of her Majesty's counsel. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELl.OR said, 
 that whon a counsel opened his case, 
 be thereby gave a pledge to the court 
 that he was ready to call his witnesses 
 immediately after, and to close it in 
 whatever way it should direct, and 
 that the law did not admit of any re- 
 liance being placed on the discrc tion 
 of counsel; and therefore declared on 
 bis honour as a peer, and his faith as a 
 man, he could not conscientioisly give 
 bis assent to the application of her 
 Mairstys counsel. 
 
 Earl GREY thought that some mis 
 apprehension existed as to the nature 
 of the proposition made by her Ma- 
 jesty's counsel. As he understood it, 
 the object of it was, not ihat they 
 might have the option of suspending 
 the defence, either after their opening 
 statement, or after examining some of 
 tlic witne«ses on their side, but to have 
 the privilege of suspending it in the 
 former particular only. The latter 
 request could not, he thought, be re- 
 t>ised either in justice or humanity, but 
 he was very doubtful whether he could 
 vote for the other. 
 
 Lord LIVERPOOL.— If the advan- 
 tages in the case were equal, he would 
 most readily allow her Majesty to have 
 the benefit of what was now asked j 
 but the injustice would be so mon- 
 strous, if the Queen's counsel were al- 
 lowed to state their case now, and call 
 their evidence at another period, that 
 be could not for one moment accede 
 to such a proposition. It had been 
 again stated by the noble earl who 
 spoke last, that the present iuconve- 
 oie&ce arose entirely from the course 
 of the proceeding taken on the part 
 of his Majesty's government. His 
 lordship would now, as he would al- 
 ways, repel that attack on his Majesty's 
 
 government. Towards the accused no 
 course could be more advantageous 
 than the-preseut. The noble earl who 
 jpoke lasr, wmild have adopted the- 
 course of impeachment; but what fresli 
 difficulties and dangerMvould have en- 
 circled her Majesty, if that had been 
 the ca«e? No precipe specification of 
 the cliaij;e would be made: the evi- 
 dt-nre would not be upon oath, and 
 frt-sh and amended charges might be 
 broujiht forward every day. In the 
 present course, however, a specifica- 
 tion of the charge had taken place with 
 as much precision as possible; for the 
 very individual with whom the adul- 
 tery was charged to have been com- 
 mitted, was pointed out : and in this 
 House, the testimony was given en 
 oath, affording an opportunity to the 
 accused of cross-examining the wit- 
 nesses, an advantiigc which the rules 
 of the other House did not admit of. 
 Upon the whole, his lord^hip conceived, 
 that if the House allowed the Queen's 
 counsel to break off in the middle of 
 bis case, they would permit him to en- 
 joy a most partial and unequal advan- 
 tage, which was refused to the counsel 
 for the Bill, and their lordships would 
 be guiltvof anact of flagrant injustice. 
 
 Lord' LAN SDOWN did not pre* 
 ciscly know what motion was before 
 the House, and he requested the Lord- 
 Chancellor to give some inforKialion 
 about it. 
 
 TheLORD-CHANCELLOR.— The* 
 motion is this — That counsel be called 
 in and be informed, that if they liow 
 proceed to state their case, they must, 
 on their closing that statement, if they 
 mean to adduce proofs, that they mtist 
 go on with them; but if not, that the 
 House now adjourn for such reason- 
 able time before the case is stated, that 
 the counsel for her Majesty shall pro- 
 pose, in order for them to proceed. 
 
 Lord LANS DOWN said, that al- 
 though he was not so well acquainted 
 with the course of proceeding in the 
 courts below, yet, as far as he knew 
 any thing of the practice, this was the, 
 most unusual course of^ proceeding 
 ever adopted in any court of judica- 
 ture whatever. He would say that, 
 if in answer to that communication, 
 the learned counsel at the bar should 
 state that he would enter into no juch. 
 case, but that he would reserve himself 
 open for his client to make such an 
 application as she should titink fit, at 
 the time, and under the circumxtan«e» 
 
176 
 
 TRIAL OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 of the case, according as the necessity i 
 sliail arise, the counsel will do no more 
 than the duty which he owes to his 
 client, and he believed that no counsel 
 who had ever appeared at their lord- 
 ships' bar, would feel bound to enter 
 into an engagement such as that pro- 
 posed ; for a more extraordinary pro- 
 ceeding in a courJ; of justice, he never 
 knew or heard of (hear). That court 
 of justice itself interrupting the course 
 of its own proceedings, — (hear, hear) 
 for the purpose of entering into a 
 treaty, — (hear, hear, hear) and con- 
 cluding a treaty witli counsel at the 
 bar. This, my lords, is the most ex- 
 traordinary proceeding that ever ap- 
 peared before any court of justice. 
 For what was it that was proposed to 
 be done ? Why, it was, that the learned 
 counsel at the bar should be called on, 
 he being ready to proceed, who states, 
 that he is ready to proceed, and who 
 has a right to procee'd. — (Hear, hear.) 
 That, in -the state the case is in, he 
 shall be told, "you shall not proceed 
 unless you will undertake in ne case 
 whatever, and under no circumstances 
 whatever, not knowing what the bear- 
 ing of the evidence will be on the case, 
 with which you are entrusted, you 
 shall undertake to make no application 
 to this House — (loud cries of *' hear,") 
 in whatever situation you may be 
 placed." The House then says for 
 itself, " We, on the other hand, in re- 
 turn for this concession which we 
 demand from you, will undertake to 
 bind ourselves; and say what you will, 
 let what circumstances will arise, let 
 the varying forms of justice, as arising 
 out of th§ state of the case, be what 
 they may, we will bind ourselves to 
 listen to no circumstances (hear, hear, 
 bear) ; to shut ourselves up, to close 
 our ears to the cause of justice which 
 ever way it presents itself, and bind 
 ourselves by this most extraordinary 
 treaty publicly between the Queen's 
 judges and the counsel at the bar. 
 (Hear, hear.) The noble marquis then 
 proceeded to say, that they had heard 
 too ranch of this case before tliem, 
 and which he thought was against the 
 character of the crown. It was a pro- 
 ceeding which had been the subject of 
 much sorrow to every reflecting mind 
 as well as regret. As to any thing like 
 a treaty or contract, or any thing like 
 a protocol sort of proceeding between 
 th<» judges of this House and the coun- 
 sel at the bar, he should for one most 
 
 strdngly protest against it. (Hear, 
 hear, hear.) He protested for one, 
 nnder a deep sense of his duty, from 
 being bound by any such intention. 
 He for one would not call on counsel 
 at the bar to do that which in his con- . 
 science he believed would betray the 
 interests of his client. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 Lord CALTHORP expressed his 
 opinion, tliat on all occasions the prac- 
 tice of courts of justice ought as 
 much as possible to be adhered to. 
 He thought that the House deviated 
 in some respects from the strict 
 rules of the courts, particularly in the 
 great latitude of the examination 
 they allowed to the counsel for her 
 Majesty — that indulgence was however 
 granted to them as an equivalent for 
 refusing the list of witnesses; and 
 considering how sparingly counsel 
 availed themselves of that power, it 
 appeared to him that the House ought 
 not to withhold that indulgence, the 
 high character of her Majesty's Attor- 
 ney-General was a guarantee that he 
 would not abuse the indulgence. 
 
 Lord REDE8DALE was of opinion 
 that they ought in the first instance to 
 have proceeded by impeachment, but 
 he felt boimd to oppose the motion ; 
 because, the object it had in view was 
 impracticable, and it would establish a 
 precedent most mischievous. 
 
 Lord DAKNLEY considered that 
 in point of public justice they ought to 
 allow her Majesty's counsel to state 
 their case and to examine the witneslses 
 now within their reach, and then to 
 adjourn until the remainder of their 
 witnesses should arrive. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR then 
 put the question, whether the adjourn- 
 ment which may be required for bring- 
 ing up her Majesty Witnesses shall take 
 place before counsel have stated her 
 case, or afterwards. It was decided, 
 on a division, that counsel must either 
 adjourn that defence altogether at pre* 
 sent ; or if not, must go into evidence 
 immediately on closing their statement 
 — by a majority of 160 to 63. — Counsel 
 were then called in, and informed of 
 the resolution to which the House had 
 come. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM now begged to 
 be permitted to comment upon the 
 evidence which had been laid before 
 the House, pledging himself to abstain 
 from any allusion whatever to the evi* 
 deuce which he might or might not 
 think it necessary to adduce. 
 
PREPARATION FOR THE DEFIANCE, 
 
 177 
 
 TbfLORD-CHANCELLORthou|a:bt 
 8uch an indulgence incompatible with 
 the resolution to which the House had 
 jnst come. 
 
 Lord ERSKTNE differed with the 
 noble lord, and moTed a resolution for 
 agreeing to the proposition of the 
 learned counsel. 
 
 The qut stion wa? put, and the House 
 divided— Contnts, 49— Non Contents, 
 170. — Majority, 121. 
 
 Counsel being again called in, and 
 infornjed that the request of Mr. 
 Brougham had been refused, 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM begged to be 
 permitted to h:\ve till to-morrow to 
 consider of his hnal determination. 
 
 Adjourned. 
 
 SATURDAY, September 9th. 
 The LORD - CHANCELLOR.— 
 
 Mr. Brougham, the House are desirous 
 of knowing at what time it will be 
 most convenient for you to go into the 
 case of iier M«»jesty ? 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.— My lords: her 
 Majesty's counsel being most willing 
 to give the Hou>e a full and satisfac- 
 tory answer to that question, thought 
 it their duty to wait upon her Majesty 
 la'^t niiiht, and, in concurrence with 
 the opinion of my learned friend, Mr. 
 Williams, who, in consequence of his 
 own professional duty, has been oblig- 
 ed to leave town for York, we have 
 come to a determination upon the sub- 
 ject, which we trust will meet your 
 lordships' convenience. The decision 
 which jour lordships came to yester- 
 day, namely, not to allow any com- 
 mentary in this sfage of the proceed- 
 ing upon the evidence adduced in sup- 
 port of the Bill, was communicated to 
 her Majesty. We then received her 
 Majesty's commands to inform your 
 1 )rdships, tlwt we shall be ready to pro- 
 ceed as speedily as possible to answer 
 the case made out for the Bill, and to 
 tender evidence in defence of her Ma- 
 jesty; but as this will require a few 
 days preparation, and as that task will 
 devolve to one of her Majesty's ad- 
 visers, in a dift'erent bra«ich of the pro- 
 fession, probably your lordships will 
 grant a short dtiay for that purpose. 
 Her Majesty's anxiety to proceed in 
 her defence, continues not only un- 
 abated, but is rather more increased 
 by some of the proofs against her, and 
 looking to that very natural, and I 
 shall take leave (o add, that praise- 
 93 
 
 worthy feeling, ray learned friends and 
 myself are desirous that the delay 
 should be as short as possible. I ra- 
 ther exceed than fall short of the limits 
 her Majesty has been pleased to assign 
 to our request, w4ien I ask your lord-^ 
 ships to allow us to about Monday 
 fortnight for that purpose. 
 
 Lord LIVERPOOL rose and said-, 
 he could not possibly conceive that 
 any difference of opinion could arise 
 in the House as to the nature of the 
 application made by the learned coun- 
 sel at the bar, because in his judgment 
 the time for beginning her Majesty's 
 defence ought to be left entirely to 
 the discretion of licr Majesty's connsel,. 
 No personal mconvenience to the metQp 
 bers of the House, individually or col- 
 lectively, ought to influence their Idlrd- 
 ships upon the question now proposed, 
 and he trusted that it would be received 
 with unanimity. 
 
 Lord DARN LEY said he concurred 
 with the noble earl, tliat the learne4 
 counsel had a perfect right to fix any 
 day most convenient for them to go 
 into the defence ol their illustribus 
 client; but if he understood the learned 
 counsel rightly, he had not announced 
 any definite or precise day when he 
 proposed to open the case of her Ma- 
 jesty, for he had used the words *' at 
 or about, or somewhere about Monday 
 fortnight." He should therefore hope 
 that the learned counsel would fix the 
 latest day, if he conveniently could, 
 without detriment to her Majesty's in- 
 terests, at which the proceedings in 
 this solemn inquiry were to be re- 
 sumed. It would not become his lord- 
 ship to suggest any particular day, but 
 it was desirable that her Majesty's 
 counsel should name precisely the 
 latest day, when it would be most con- 
 venient for them positively to proceed 
 in the defence. This arrangeftient 
 would remove all doubt or confasion 
 upon the subject. 
 
 Lord GREY agreed with his noble 
 friend who spoke last, and with the 
 noble earl who preceded him, that the 
 House was bound t» attend to the 
 convenience of her Majesty's counsel 
 as to the time when they should be 
 prepared to cuter into her Majesty's 
 defence ; but as it had been stated by 
 the learned counsel at the bar, that he 
 should be prepared by Monday fort- 
 night, he hoped he should not be con- 
 sidered as in any degree interfering 
 with the discretion which the learned 
 
178 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 counsel had exercised, by observing 
 that it would be utterly impossible for 
 menibeis, who, like himself, resided at 
 a great distance from the metropolis, 
 to bestow that attention which was due 
 to their family and domestic affairs, 
 which had been so long neglected, in 
 the short interval of delay proposed. 
 To himself such a delay would be preg- 
 nant with the greatest possible incon- 
 venience. He only hoped, that as the 
 ieained counsel would be prepared by 
 MtHiday fortnight, there would be no 
 objection to a much longer delay; 
 which would, in some degree, alleviate 
 the inconvenience to which he alluded. 
 Even noble lords, resident near the 
 metropolis, could not be insensible to 
 the disadvantage which their private 
 and domestic affairs laboured under, 
 in being absent from their families at 
 this period of the year (hear, hear); 
 but to those who resided at a distance 
 the mischief was incalculable. Matters 
 even of public as well as a private na- 
 ture, demanded their presence in the 
 country; and taking these circum- 
 stances into consideration, he did hope 
 that a much later day than Monday 
 fortnight would be proposed for re- 
 turning the proceedings (hear, hear, 
 hear). 
 
 Lord LIVERPOOL apologised for 
 again trespassing on the attention of 
 the House. His opinion undoubtedly 
 was, that the House ought to be go- 
 verned entirely by the wishes of the 
 learned counsel; but, if personal con- 
 ■venience ought to have any weight at 
 all upon the question, and an adjourn- 
 ment for a few days longer than the 
 period proposed was thought desirable, 
 he should be the last man to interpose 
 any objection. His own personal ob- 
 jection was out of the case. If, how- 
 ever, there was any peer in the house 
 whose personal convenience ought to 
 be attended to, it was that of thenoble 
 &nd learned lord on the woolsack, 
 whose judicial situation, and his duties 
 in this house, literally occupied the 
 whole of his time from one end of the 
 year to the other, with the exception 
 of tlie period when the House was not 
 engaged in business of this description. 
 He really did think that if personal 
 convenience was to have any weight, 
 it was that of his noble and learned 
 friend, which ought to influence their 
 decision (loud cht ers), in order that 
 he might have an opportunity of re- 
 ci-uiting his health. His time of life 
 
 was a matter which should ako be 
 taken into consideration. (Hear, hear.) 
 The LOKU-CHANCELLOR ex- 
 pressed his gratitude for the very flat- 
 tering manner in which his name was 
 mentioned, and the manner in w hirh 
 it was received . He felt it his boundeii 
 duty to declare that no consideration 
 of personal convenience should weigh 
 with him in the discharge of his present 
 painful duty. So long as it was in his 
 power he should continue to discharge 
 that duty to the last, however disa- 
 greeable. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 Lord ROSEBERRY thought the 
 request ef her Majesty's counsel ought' 
 to be the rule to govern the House ; 
 but if a delay of three weeks would 
 not interfere with their arrangements, 
 probably it would be acceptalile. 
 
 The Marquis of LANSDOWNsaid. 
 that unless it was a matter of indif- 
 ference to her Majesty's counsel, the 
 house ought not to exceed the time 
 they had prescribed. 
 
 Lord LAUDERDALE remindexl 
 the House that the learned counsel 
 had told their lordships, that in naming 
 Monday fortnight, they had exceeded 
 her Majesty's wishes. Personal incon- 
 venience ought to have no weight with 
 the House, and he therefore objected 
 to a farther postponement, in conse- 
 quence of what had been stated by the 
 learned counsel. 
 
 Lord HARROWBY observed, that 
 as the learned counsel had not stated 
 with precision the very day on which 
 he should be prepared, it was desirable 
 that the house should not separate 
 without some certainty upon the sub- 
 ject. 
 
 Lord GREY proposed that the coun- 
 sel should be asked if they would be 
 ready next Monday, and intimated 
 that if their answer was in the affirma- 
 tive, he should move that that be the 
 day for proceeding on her Majesty's 
 defence. 
 
 Lord LIVERPOOL suggested the^ 
 propriety of asking the counsel what 
 was meant by " at or about Monday 
 fortnight." 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR put 
 the question to the learned counsel ac- 
 cordingly. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM replied, that he 
 had used those words, because hjs 
 learned friends and himself were un- 
 willing to take upon themselves to fix 
 the precise day, inasmuch as the con- 
 venience of her Majesty's solicitor 
 
APJOURNMENT OP THE DEFENCR. 
 
 179 
 
 must be consulted in the preparation 
 of iustrnctions, 6iC. He had no objec- 
 tion, however, to state now, that al- 
 though her 3Iajesty was very anxious 
 from niQlives, which he trusted would 
 be duly appreciated by the House 
 (hear! liear!) that the' very earliest 
 day should be tixed, yet he would take 
 upon himself as outs of her Majesty's 
 law advisers, in concurrence with the 
 learned friends near hira, and more 
 especially with the approbation of his 
 learned friend, Mr. Vizard, her Ma- 
 jesty's solicitor, whose approbation oh 
 a question of this sort was of more im- 
 portance, considering the part of the 
 case which was entrusted to his care, 
 to submit that the defence should be 
 postponed until Monday three weeks, 
 a delay which would suit all purposes, 
 if it should be found convenient to 
 the House. 
 
 Earl GREY said, that in conse- 
 Cjuence of this intimation he must apply 
 to the House for permission to absent 
 himself on account of urgent private 
 aifairs. 
 
 Lord MELVILLE thought a post- 
 ponement of three weeks more ob- 
 jectionable than a fortnight. 
 
 Lord ERSKINEsaid, he considered 
 the presence, of his noble friend so im- 
 portant in the present grave inquiry, 
 that he should certainly oppose the 
 application for his being absent. 
 
 Affer a desultory discussion of some 
 length, in which Lord Grenville, Lord 
 Darlington, Lord Rolle, Lord Liver- 
 
 E>ol, Lord Lauderdale, Lord Falmouth, 
 ord Redesdale, the Duke of Athol, 
 and Lord Holland, took part, the ques- 
 tion was put from the woolsack. 
 
 " That the further proceedings on 
 tbis Bill be adjourned until Tuesday, 
 the third of October:" and it was car- 
 ried in the affirmative. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLORasked 
 their lordships if they had any objec- 
 tion that Lord J. Montague and Mr. 
 Bnrrell should be examined by a com- 
 mivsion abroad, the state of their health 
 not permitting them to attend at their 
 lordships' bar. 
 
 Lord LIVERPOOL was of opinion, 
 if this request were granted, that it 
 would be pregnant with very dangerous 
 eoiisequences. And now with respect 
 to the hour of commencing and ending 
 the proceedings, he considered their 
 lordships would gain more by not sit- 
 ting from four to five, than ifthey pro- 
 tracted their sitting to that hour. The 
 
 inconvenience of sitting so long was 
 mi^eh felt by many of their lordships, 
 and he wished to avoid this — by not 
 co)itinuing business longer than four 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR said, 
 it v\as his duty to mention this subject, 
 and he now bogged to be allowed to 
 ask at what hour their lordships wished 
 to adjourn? 
 
 Lord EIISKINE, as we understood 
 him, had no objection to that hour. 
 
 Lord HOLLAND wished to know, 
 if any, and what alteration, was in- 
 tended in their lordship's hour of pro- 
 ceeding on this important subject? 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR,— Is 
 it your lordships' pleasure, when the 
 House meet again to proceed on tliis 
 business, that counsel be called in at 
 ten, and end at four? 
 
 The Duke of MONTROSE, having 
 received a letter from a member of 
 the other House, Mr. Wm. Burrell, 
 stating the impossibility of attending 
 at their lordships' bar from ill health, 
 requested to know if their lordships 
 would allow him to be examined by a 
 commission? Ke understood it was the 
 intention of the other House, when 
 they met, to move that a commission 
 be appointed for the examination of 
 such witnesses as could not attend. It 
 might be right to mention, that Mr. 
 Burrell said, he was not aware of hi« 
 having any thing very material to state. 
 Lord LIVERPOOL was of opinion 
 that the statement made by Mr. Bur- 
 rell, confirmed the objections he had 
 already taken to the appointment of a 
 commission. In certain cases, if it 
 were done with the consent of parties, 
 its consequences might not be very in- 
 jurions. But where some witnesses 
 might be highly important, and others 
 not — and indeed, in either case, their 
 lordships should deliberate well before 
 tliey acceded to the request of the no- 
 ble Duke. He took this occasion of 
 submitting whether a peer absent from 
 ill luealth should take an oath, or be on 
 his honour as to his being so ? 
 
 Lord ERSKINE said a few words, 
 which were altogether inaudible. 
 
 Lord ROSSLYN considered it im^ 
 portant to the interests of the Queen, 
 that the indulgence prayed for should 
 be granted. 
 
 TheLORD-CHANCELLOR.— Mr. 
 Attorney-General, I am Informed that 
 two witnesses on the part of her Ma- 
 jesty, Lord F. Montague and Mr. Win. 
 
180 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN, 
 
 Bnrrcll, find it impossible to come to 
 the bar of the House to be examined 
 in consequence of ill health. Do yon 
 consent to their examination bein^ 
 taken out of this Honse in any form the 
 House may think proper to adopt? 
 
 The A ri orney-genp:ral.— 
 
 My lords (speak out) I hardly feel my- 
 8"eif authorized to accede to this pro- 
 position; and I rather apprehend it is 
 inatter entirely for your lordships' con- 
 sideration. If your lordships consent 
 to such an examination, I can feel no 
 ditiicriltv in giving my consent. 
 
 THE LORD-CHANCELLOR. -- 
 That is all the answer' the Attorney- 
 Gerieral can give. 
 
 Lord HOLLAND would not oppose 
 the examination, but he wislicd to 
 know if there existed any, and what 
 analogy on tlie subject? 
 
 Lord LIVERPOOL.— I move that 
 tills House do now ad|ourn. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR.— Be- 
 fore that question is put, I beg leave to 
 move that John Odi, Julius Ca?sar Ca- 
 vazi, and Joseph Vis( tti, be ordered to 
 attend your lordships' bar. 
 
 Lord ROS8LYN expressed his snr-^ 
 prise that the Attorney-General had 
 made the Rouse a party in this case — 
 tiiat learned gentleman thereby shift- 
 ^ JHg that character on their lordships, in 
 •which he himself then stood. Ihere 
 raieht exist some difficulties in the case, 
 bat iio considered the consent of par- 
 tit s would take away all that injury, 
 \vhi(h was apprehended from making 
 this induigcnce a precedent for future 
 times. If thrir lordebips agreed with 
 tis view of the object, he hoped they 
 would not hesiiate to grant that indul- 
 gence which might be of material im- 
 portance to the illustrious party now 
 ©a her defence. 
 
 THE LORD-CHANCELLOR. -- 
 There are instances, in cases of civil 
 process, wUeii t>uch exaniinations have 
 
 been taken by con.^ent of parties ^ but 
 I know of uo instance in which it has 
 prevailed in criminal proceedings. I 
 am not much practised, it is trne, 
 either as counsel or judge in these 
 cases, but if any such instances exist, I 
 believe they will be ffund to be ex- 
 tremely rare. With a view to do am- 
 ple justice by the authority of an act of 
 parliament, such exaniinations might 
 take place ; but even then, they should 
 only be allowed in very grave and 
 weighty instances. In this case the 
 witness has a right to be examined in 
 support of the defence, but it is im- 
 possible that this court can do justice, 
 unless the witness himself appear be- 
 fore your lordships' bar. Such a pro- 
 ceeding should not take place unless in 
 some important case. And here I take 
 the liberty of saying, that the letter be 
 read by the noble duke, does not con- 
 vey to US that Mr. Burrell has anything 
 material to state. 
 
 Lord REDESDALE,in cases of di- 
 vorce, admitted that certain questions 
 were put by this sort of examination. 
 The India Bill also allowed examina- 
 tions, but it first made it necessary to 
 put such questions as their lordships 
 thought proper to propose; and se- 
 condly, that such examination shonid 
 take place by counsel before a jodge, 
 who was to administer all such other 
 questions as might go to elicit the 
 truth. There was no analogy between 
 the India Bill and the case now before 
 them. 
 
 THE LORD-CHANCELLOR.— 
 The question I have now to pnt is — 
 " Is it your lordships' pleasure that 
 this HoHse adjourn to Tuesday the 
 third day of October next,'' which was 
 carried without a division, and their 
 lordshii)s adjourned to Tuesday the 
 third of October, at ten o'clock iu tU© 
 morning. 
 
 Loiidon : Printed by J, Turner, 170, Aldersgatc Street. 
 
y^'^^ (e^M^ii^J^ C-^'W^^i^ ^~^^/u-.ci4^ 
 
HER MAJESTY'S 
 
 DEFENCE. 
 
 TUESDAY, October 3, 1820. 
 
 ^ THE Hou«e met this morning, in 
 pursuance of adjournment, at ten 
 o'clock. The interest excited in the 
 public mind in this stage of the pro- 
 xjeedings was intense, and before tlie 
 hour of business had arrived, the space 
 below the bar was crowded to excess. 
 Counsel being called in, 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM commenced his 
 speech to the House in a low tone of 
 voice. He spoke as follows : — ** My 
 lords, the time has now arrived when 
 it becomes my duty to address your 
 lordships upon this momentous of all 
 momentous cases. It is not the august 
 presence of this assembly which im- 
 presses me, for I have oftentimes ex- 
 perienced its indulgence — nor is it the 
 novelty of this proceeding that per- 
 plexes me, for the mind gradually gets 
 reconciled to the most extraordinary 
 deviations from the common course of 
 things — neither is it the magnitude of 
 the case that oppresses me, for I am 
 borne up and cheered by that convic- 
 tion of its justice, which I share, I am 
 persuaded, with all mankind : but, my 
 lords, it is the very force of that con- 
 yietion, the knowledge that it operates 
 universally, and the consciousness and 
 feelinjj tisar it operates rightly, which 
 now dismay me, and till me with the 
 apprehension lest my unworthy mode 
 of dealint? with such a case, may for 
 the first time fail me. While others 
 have trombled for a guilty client, or 
 heeii anvious in a doubtful case — have 
 felt c> ippl«'d by its weaA^ness, chilled 
 by the inference of guilt, or dismayed 
 by t>.e h >stility of public opinion, I, 
 know Hi that, in the present case, 
 guilt is no where to be found, iave in 
 tiie resources of perjury and falsehood, 
 and that from the truth I have not^»ing 
 
 to dread, yet am I haunted "with the 
 apprehension, that my feeble discharge 
 of the duty I have undertaken, may, 
 for the first time, cast the case into 
 doubt, and may turn against me, for 
 my condemnation, those millionfl of 
 your lordships' countrymen, whose jea- 
 lous eyes are now watching me, and 
 who will not fail to impute it to me, 
 if your lordships sUTtuld pronouuce 
 that judgment which the nature of the 
 charge would extort ; and I feel my- 
 self under this weight so bitterly op- 
 pressed, that I can hardly, at this mo- 
 ment, with all my reflection upon the 
 indulgence your lordships have ex- 
 tended to me, compose my spirits to 
 the discharge of my professional duty. 
 It is no light addition to this feeling, 
 that I fear, though the apprchensioa 
 is at some distance, that before this 
 proceeding shall close, it may be ray 
 unexampled lot to discharge a duty of 
 the most painful description, but which 
 I certainly will not enter upon if I can 
 relieve your lordships from the neces- 
 sity of having your attention called to 
 the subject to which the performance 
 of that duty would refer. My lords, 
 the Princess Caroline of Brunswick 
 arrived in this country in the year 
 1794. She was the niece of oar Sove- 
 reign^the intended consort of his royal 
 heir, and herself not remote in title to 
 the crown of England : but I now go 
 back to that paiiod only for the pur- 
 pose of passing over all the interval 
 which elapsed between her arrival in 
 this country and her departure from 
 it in tlie year 1814. I rejoice, that, 
 for the present, the most faithful dift- 
 ciiargc of my duty permits me to take 
 this view of the case, but I cannot do 
 so without pausing for an instuut, to 
 
182 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 guard myself from the misrepresenta- 
 tion to which this course may be ex- 
 posed, and to assure your lordships so- 
 lemnly, that if I did not think the case 
 of the Queen, as attempted to be esta- 
 blished by the evidence, not only does 
 not require recrimination for the pre- 
 sent — not only does not impose the 
 necessity of one whisper by way of 
 attack upon the conduct of her iJlus- 
 trious consort, but, on the contrary, 
 prescribes to me for the present silence 
 on this great and most painful head of 
 the case, my detail of this period of the 
 life of the Queen, and of her residence 
 in this country, would not be closed. 
 In exercising the power confided to 
 me, and in postponing that statement 
 of the case of whicli I am possessed, I 
 feel confident I am waving a right 
 -which I have, and am abstaining from 
 the use of materials which are mine ; 
 and let it not be thought, that if here- 
 after I should so far be disappointf d 
 in my estimate of the failure of the 
 case against me as to deem it my duty 
 to exercise that right, I shall not fail 
 to do so. Let no man suppose, that I, 
 or even the youngest mep^iber of the 
 profession, would hesitate one minute, 
 in the fair discharge of our professional 
 duty, to resort to such a topic, if the 
 interest of our client required it. I 
 once before reminded your lordships, 
 it would be unnecessary, but there are 
 many whom I must remind, that an ad- 
 vocate, by his sacred connexion with 
 Lis client, knows, what but one other 
 individual in the world can know; and 
 to promote that client at all hazards, 
 is the highest of his duties : he must 
 not regard the alarm, or the suftering, 
 the torment, or even the destruction 
 he may bring on another — nay, sepa- 
 rating the duties of a patriot from those 
 of an advocate, he mu^tgo on, reckless 
 of the consequences, though his fate 
 should be to involve his country in con- 
 fusion and conflict. But, my lords, I 
 am not reduced to this painful neces- 
 sity; I feel that I have no occasion to 
 touch that branch of the case now— 
 nor shall I, unless some event in the 
 course of the proceeding shall here- 
 after convince me that 1 have unhap- 
 pily deceived myself. At present I 
 feel that I do not approach that branch 
 of the case — lassume to put the crown 
 of innocence on the head of my illus- 
 trious client — I assume to be justified 
 in ideading not guilty even to the 
 charge of levities, or of improprieties, 
 
 the least and the lightest of which I 
 stand here to deny ; for the charge is 
 foul — it is foul and false as those who 
 have dared to utter it; and who, pre- 
 tending to dischaige the higher duties 
 to God, have i-hewii thai they know 
 not the first of iheii duties to their 
 fellow creatures. It is fViul, false, and 
 scandalous ; and they know it is. so, who 
 have dared to say that impiopiieties 
 h'lve beenadmitted to have been proved 
 againstthe Queen. I deny that any such 
 admission has ever bren made; I con- 
 tend that the exidenredoes not prove 
 them; I will shewyou that the evidence 
 wholly disproves them. One admis- 
 sion doubtless I did make; and let my 
 learned friends who arc counsel for the 
 bill take all credit of it, for it is the 
 only fact they have proved. I grant 
 that her Majesty left this country, and 
 resided in Italy; — I grartt tl.at hor 
 society in Italy was ch:efl\ f<*T(ign; — 
 I grant it was low socierv , compared 
 to the one in which she had moved. 
 After she was deprived of the protec- 
 tion she had received in this country 
 — after the fatal events which she ex- 
 perienced — after having enjoyed the 
 society of the families ol many of your 
 lordships, I do grant that she moved 
 in a more humble spliere. 'i he charge 
 against her is, that she associated with 
 Italians, instead of people of her own 
 country ; and that, instead of the peer- 
 esses of England, she sometim- s asso- 
 ciated with the Italian nobility, and 
 sometimes with the Commonalty. Who 
 are they who bring forward this charge? 
 Others may blame hei for going abroad 
 ■ — others may tell tales of the conse- 
 scquence of leaving her among Italians^ 
 and her not associating with her own 
 countrymen ; but it is not your lord- 
 ships who have a right to say so — it is 
 not you who are to fling this at her Ma- 
 jesty. You are the last persons — you 
 who presume to judge her, for you are 
 the witnesses she must call to vindicate 
 herself from the charge — you — you are 
 the last persons to upbraid her, for you 
 have been the instigators of the only 
 admitted crime of which she is guilty. 
 While she was here, she courteously 
 opened the doors of her palace to the 
 families of* your lordships — she conde- 
 scended to mix in the habits of familiar 
 life with those virtuous persons who 
 composed your families — she conde- 
 scended to court your society, and as 
 long as it suited purposes, not of her's, 
 and was subservient to views, not (i>f 
 
MR. BROUGHAM. 
 
 183 
 
 her own — as lonj; as it served interests 
 in uiiich she had no concern, &!ie did 
 net court llic society which has been 
 imputed to her as an otience ; but 
 when chanires took place — when other 
 views were to be taken — when that 
 power was to be retained which had 
 been the means of others grasping 
 — when that desire of power, to the 
 gratification of which she was made 
 the victim, was to be satisfied, tlien it 
 was that tlie doors of her palace were 
 opened in va.iu — the society of peer- 
 esses was closed against her, and she 
 was reduced to the humiliating alter- 
 native of solitude, or associating with 
 persons ot a lower rank in society, 
 AViien it pleased you to reduce her to 
 a state of humiliation, then it was site 
 was constrained to keep the company 
 of those beneath her, or of quitting the 
 country. I say, then, it is not here 
 that such a charge ought to be prefer- 
 red. It is not in the presence of your 
 lordships, I should expect, to hear any 
 one lift his voice to complain of the 
 Princess of Wales having lived inltaly, 
 and associated with those whose so- 
 ciety she ought not to have chosen, 
 and, perhaps, would not have chosen 
 had she been in another aud happier 
 situation. About this period an event 
 took place wfaich, of all others was cal- 
 culated to excite her feelings; — her 
 daughter — her much . and deeply la- 
 mented daughter, was to be married, 
 but no annouucement was made to her 
 of the projected alliance. All Eng- 
 land was occupied with the subject. 
 All Europe was looking on to the inte- 
 rest it excited. England had it an- 
 nounced — Europe had it announced — 
 bnt the person to whom no notice was 
 given was the mother of the bride ; 
 though all she had then done to deserve 
 this treatment, was, that she had been 
 proved not guilty of the charges pre- 
 ferred against her by one of the illus- 
 trious parties; and it appeared she 
 had been treated with harsh and un- 
 merited cruelty. The marriage of the 
 Princess, her daughter, was consum- 
 mated — no notice was taken of the 
 event to the mother — she heard it acci- 
 dentally by a courier who was going 
 to announce it to the Pope — that anci- 
 ent, intimate, and much valued ally of 
 the ©rown of England. The prospect 
 afforded by this uniop was grateful to 
 the whole nation. It afforded a hope 
 to the country that the marriage would 
 prove a fruitful source of the stability 
 
 of the royal family. The whole of the 
 period of the nuptials of the daughter 
 pas.sed without the slightest conmiuni- 
 cation ; and if the feelings of the Prin- 
 cess had prompted her to open one, 
 she was in a«tate of anxiety and deli- 
 cacy i»i consequence of her first preg- 
 nancy, which would have made it dan- 
 serous for her to have imluigcd in 
 those feel inus, placed as she was, be- 
 tween 4)ower and authority on the one 
 hand, and alfeciion and duty on the 
 other. I lament the event which 
 plunged the whole of England in grief 
 —a grief in which all our foreign neigh- 
 bours sympathised. With due regard 
 to the feeliniis of the powers and per- 
 sons with whom we were in alliance, 
 and even of those witli whom we had 
 no alliance, the event was speedily 
 communicated ; but to the person who, 
 of all the world, had the d. epest inte- 
 rest in the event — that person, whose 
 feelings, of all mankind, were most 
 overwhelmed and stunned, was left to 
 be overwhelmed and stunned by acci- 
 dentally hearing of her daughter's 
 death, as she had heard accidentally of 
 her marriage; but, if she had not so 
 heard of it by accident, she would ere 
 long have felt it ; for the decease of 
 the Princess Charlotte was conmiuni- 
 cated to the mother by the issue of the 
 Milan Commission ; and the proceed- 
 ings being again, for a third time, 
 resorted to against her. It had been 
 her lot always to lose her sure stay 
 when dangers most thickened around, 
 and by an almost miraculous coinci- 
 dence, hardly was her defender with- 
 drawn, but his loss was a signal for some 
 new attack. Mr. Pitt, it is well known, 
 was her early defender — he died in 
 1806, and but a few weeks after his 
 death the first inquiry took took place. 
 He left a sacred legacy to Mr. Perce- 
 val, her firm, dauntless, and able advo- 
 cate. No sooner had the hands of an 
 assassin laid him low than she felt his 
 loss in the renewal of the attacks which 
 his skill and constancy had defeated. 
 Mr. Whitbread then undertook her 
 defence, and Avhen that catastrophe, 
 which all good men lament, unfortu- 
 nately took place, again commenced 
 the distant rumbling of the storm. It 
 is true, it was not allowed to approach 
 her, for, at this time, her dauj^hter stood 
 her friend ; but, when she lost that 
 daughter, then all that might have 
 been expected immediately took place 
 — ^all that inigbt have been dreaded by 
 
184 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 her, had she not possessed the consci- 
 ousness of innocence. Her persecu- 
 tion was attended with pain and anxie- 
 ty, because, innocent or guilty, who is 
 there can love persecution ? Who can 
 delight in trial, especially after a for- 
 mer trial, and an undeniable acquittal? 
 The whole weight of accusation burst 
 upon her head, the operations were 
 commenced, and as if there was to be 
 no probability of the Queen losing a 
 protector without some most import- 
 ant act in this drama being played, the 
 ver^ day which saw the venerable re- 
 mains of our sovereign consigned to 
 the tomb — of tliat sovereign, who from 
 the first outset of the Princess's life in 
 England, was her constant defender; 
 — the same day was the commence- 
 ment of a new proceeding against this 
 injured Princess, a branch of his illus- 
 trious house. Why do I mention these 
 tilings? — not for the purpose of making 
 the trifiing remarks that politicians are 
 selfish — that no favours can bind base 
 natures — that favours conferred, and 
 the duty of gratitude neglected, only 
 n;ake those natures more base. Such 
 topics would be trite. I introduce the 
 circumstance to express my deep sense 
 of the unworthiness with which I suc- 
 ceed such powerful defenders, and my 
 alarm, lest my exertions should fail to 
 do what others, if they had been living, 
 •would have etfected. I pray now your 
 attention for a few moments to what 
 has resulted from all this. It is not to 
 the getting up of this story, or to its 
 general features, I have to address 
 you ; but I must begin by desiring you 
 to recollect what tlie evidence not only 
 has not proved, but is likely to have 
 discharged from your memory. I am 
 referring to the Attorney-General's 
 opening speech. Now he shall himself 
 describe in his own words the plain 
 coustrnction of his opening speech. It 
 is most material to direct your atten- 
 tion to this, for much of the argument 
 rests OH it. My learned friend did not 
 make a general speech without proof 
 or instruction ; on the contrary, it was 
 the transcript of that which he had be- 
 fore him, and the way the transcript 
 Avas made I leave your lordship to de- 
 tennine. ' I will,' said my learned 
 friend, and every one acquainted with 
 his honourable nature, knows he could 
 not do otherwise—' I will,' said he, 
 * conscientiously state nothing which I 
 rannot substantiate. I wilt withhold 
 nothing.' I know he spok^ from his 
 
 conscience, and when I clearly see he 
 has failed, I know there can have been 
 but one cause of his failure, and that in, 
 that he told what he had in his brief, 
 but which got into his brief from the 
 witnesses, who, with falsehood in their 
 mouths, originally stated it. I think 
 the sample you have had will enable 
 you to form an estimate of the value of 
 the evidence, not only where it comes 
 up to my learned friend's opening, but 
 to give a pretty good guess of that part 
 which does not. For this purpose I 
 will take one or two of the leading veit- 
 nesses, and compare their evidence 
 with the manner in which my learned 
 friend opened it. In the first place 
 he said that the evidence of the Queen's 
 conduct would come down almost to 
 the present time. I am stating his 
 words from the short-hand writer's 
 notes. Now, in point of fact, accord- 
 ing to my learned friend, almost up to 
 the present time means three years ago, 
 a period almost equal to the space of 
 time over which the other part of the 
 evidence is spread. With respect to 
 Naples, which is laid as the first scene 
 of the Queen's conduct he is studiously 
 brief, as if it was the place where the 
 connection first commenced — as if it 
 was there the guilty intention the 
 Queen had been long harbouring was 
 at length gratilied. I beg your atten- 
 tion to the nianiit?rin which my learned 
 friend opened his first branch of the 
 charge, and upon which, if there should 
 fall a stigma, it will attach to all the 
 subsequent parts of the evidence. How 
 does he open it? He says," I will shew 
 yon decisive marks of two persons 
 having slept in the bed the night she 
 came home from the Opera. She re- 
 turned,' he says, " early from the 
 Opera, went to her own room, repaired 
 toBergami's room, where Bergami was. 
 The next day she was not visible till a 
 late hour, and was inaccessible to the 
 nobility. Every one of the circum- 
 stances rising in importance, and even 
 the lowest of them of importance.* 
 Now it appears that every one of these 
 circumstances is not only false, but that 
 they are all negatived by the witnesses 
 produced to support them. The witness 
 Duniont givcj no decisive marks to the 
 bed ; slie gives a doubtful and hesitat- 
 ing account, with one exception, with 
 respect to which I shall hereafter call 
 your attention. There is nothing spe- 
 cific ; she denies that she knew where 
 the Queen went when she left her bed- 
 
MR. BROUGHAM. 
 
 185 
 
 room ; slip denies that slie knew where 
 Bergami was ; she says that the next 
 niurnin^ the Queen was np and alert 
 by the usual time. There is not the 
 least evidence of access being refused 
 to any one person who called upon 
 lier. fn truth, there is no evidence 
 that any one did call. We then come 
 tothatwhich my learned friend opened 
 with more than his wonted confidence 
 and persuasion of its correctness. We 
 know that all the rest of this statement 
 was fro.Ti the instructions in his brief. 
 He had never been in Italy — never 
 did he or my other learned friend give 
 a hint that they had been in Italy, or 
 knew what sort of a place Italy was. 
 What were the manners of Italy. What 
 was the nature ofamasqued ball, or 
 the Cassino, or the effect of being 
 black-balled— they indeed talked of 
 black balling, and the Cassino; for- 
 gettinfr, however, the circumstance, 
 that Colonel Hro-wne had been black- 
 balled, and ihat the Cassino was the 
 scene of the Milan Commission. "As 
 to a masquerade," said the Attorney- 
 General, " who ever heard of a Royal 
 Princess, the wife of the Prince Re- 
 gent of these realms, going disguised 
 to a masquerade; or, being disguised, 
 did not go in her state coach, with her 
 
 . livery servants, her laced coachman, 
 iS* and body servants, and attended with 
 all the pomp, pride, ami circumstance 
 ofacourtora birthday. Instead of 
 this," he says, " she went in her private 
 carriage, without the royal arms, pro- 
 ceeding by the back door, without is- 
 suing out of the front door, with all 
 the world a witness of her project." 
 I really wonder he did not add, that 
 she went to a masquerade disguised in 
 a domino and false dress. It was 
 therefore I said that my learned friend's 
 
 • statements were not, from their own 
 knowledge, or their personal observa- 
 tions — and, last of all, from being pre- 
 sent at the royal recreation? of Murat's 
 Court. They had their information 
 from Madame Diimotit or Majochi, 
 who have repeatedly told the same 
 story ; but which, being unfounded, 
 they recollect what is untrue, and for- 
 get what is true. '* Then," says my 
 learned friend the Attorney-General, 
 *' leaving the witness Dumont to her 
 general suspicions, wc come to some- 
 thing more specific." His phrase al- 
 ways is, " I ajj), instructed to state — 
 and the witness says se and so." He 
 states that on one occasion the dress 
 
 24 
 
 of the Princess was indecent and dis- 
 gusting; afterwards adding, that it 
 was most indecent, so much so that 
 she was hooted from the public theatre. 
 Yoi-i will recollect the witness said she 
 was in a dress exceedingly ngly, and 
 that was all that could be gotfrom her. 
 She added, that ugly masks came about 
 her, but that she was unmoved by 
 them, for, as you well know, persons in 
 amasqiierade dress endeavouras much 
 as possible to be di>guised. She was 
 attacked, as masks usually are, by a 
 number of other masks— ugly masks, 
 her own dress being of that descrip- 
 tion — for what reason is left in the 
 dark. I should fatigue you if I was 
 to go through the whole of the Attor- 
 ney-General's opening. He stated, 
 that at Mtssina the Princess and Ber- 
 gami were locked up in the same cham- 
 ber ; but it is now reduced to this, that 
 at Villa d'Este, the only access to Ber- 
 gami's bed-room was by a way where 
 no bed- room was. There are a num- 
 ber of particulars in my learned friend's 
 speech respecting the evidence of Ma- 
 dame Dumont. Among others he states 
 that she remained in an adjoining cham- 
 ber to the one in which were the Prin- 
 cess and Rergami, and that there she 
 heard kissing; now the witness her- 
 self says, that siie only heard a whis- 
 pering. With regard to Sacchi a story 
 is told by him which I have no doubt 
 he has often told before. I have no 
 doubt it is in my learned friend's brief, 
 but it is no where else. My learned 
 friend states that Sacchi having re- 
 turned from Milan found Berganii out 
 of his own room ; that he saw him come 
 out of the Queen's room; that, observ- 
 ing him, he spoke to him, and that Ber- 
 ganii being confused, explained it by 
 saying he had heard his child cry. 
 Now, Sacchi, on being interrogated, 
 negatives the whole of this precisely; 
 he denies it as strongly as a man can 
 deny such a story, hy denying any re- 
 collection of such particulars. It was 
 not for want of examination that he 
 did not speak to this, tor my learned 
 friend questioned him over and over 
 again. He then referred to what he 
 called those dis«;raceful Svccnes which, 
 he says, took place at the Queen's re- 
 sidence. He so stated them, no doubt, 
 from their having been so represented 
 to him : he did not tell us what they 
 were ; b\it they were, he said, so dis- 
 graceful, that the house in which they 
 were transacted rather deserved the 
 
186 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN, 
 
 name of a bvotlicl than a palace; but 
 there is the most entir^ faihue as to 
 the proof. Then we were told that 
 the attcrnlants of the Queen were 
 shocked at her conduct— that all ranks 
 of persons in Italy were shocked at 
 the criminality of her proceedings: 
 and that with re pcct to visiting by 
 the nobility, the (Queen's company was 
 entirely given lip, and that from the 
 niomeut she left this country, all her 
 attendants went away, and that she 
 ■was treated al)ri)ad with the same 
 Begject she was heie. Now all this 
 was open to proof— how did he happen 
 to foFfjet Lady Charlotte Lindsay, 
 Lady Charlotte Campbell, Lady Finch, 
 and the other ladies joinlnj; her at 
 Naples. It seem?, then, tliat after all 
 the servants of the Queen were shocked 
 at her conduct, Lady Charlotte liind- 
 say attended her Majesty. I do not 
 suppose there was that degree of se- 
 crecy in Italy, which the witnesses 
 state to have existed during the pro- 
 gress of th« ir voyage till they came to 
 Cotton-garden, and brought their per 
 juries with them. How came it that 
 JLord and Lady Glenbervie, and other 
 distinguished persons should have vi- 
 sited her, should have done so after 
 having heard of her conduct. They 
 are all represented as having been 
 stunned at the impropriety and inde- 
 cency of her Royal Highness; but 
 they are proved to have afterwards 
 joined her Majesty, some in Genoa, 
 others at Leghorn, and to have asso- 
 ciated with her in spite of all her open 
 criminality. But even at a later period 
 the Queen has bten proved to have 
 been treated abroad not with that neg- 
 lect which she was slated to have ex- 
 perienced. She was courteously re- 
 ceived after her return from her long 
 voyage by the legiti)nate Sovereign 
 Prince of Baden. Equally well by 
 the more legitimate Bourbons at Pa- 
 lermo. Her company was courted by 
 the legitimate heirs of the Stuarts. I 
 call them the heirs legitnnate, as con- 
 trasted with luirs of right — for they 
 are the true legitimate heirs of the 
 throne, at least as others call them, 
 ■whi) do not owe allegiance, or who dis- 
 guise their allegiance to the House of 
 Brunswick — nay, a prince who mav 
 rank in point of antiquity with any of 
 our legitimate sovereignsj the Bey of 
 Tunis, received her Majesty in a man- 
 ner suitable to her birth and rank. In 
 the same way was she received by the. 
 
 representative of the King at Con- 
 stantinople. I do not mention these 
 circumstances for the purpose of vin- 
 dicating her character, but only to 
 show that the treatment of her Majesty 
 abroad was not as my learned friend 
 stated. I am now to solicit your indul- 
 gence, while I look a little more inter- 
 nally at the case which has been thus 
 opened, and not proved, by the Attor- 
 ney-General. The first remark that 
 must naturally strike n«, is one that 
 pervades the whole case, and is not 
 easily answered. Is it not marvellous 
 that such a case should be left so im- 
 potently lame, so short, as they must 
 admit it is, when contrasted with their 
 opening, and so short from the manner 
 in which they ought to have proved it, 
 if there had been the least foundation 
 of the charge ? Was ever a case for 
 criminal conversation brousht into a 
 court of justice under such favourable 
 auspices ? Who are your witnesses ; 
 —the very two who of all men and 
 women must know most of the trans- 
 action, not only whether the fact of 
 adultery w^as in the course of being 
 committed, but whether it had been 
 committed at all. I mean the body 
 servants of the parties, the valet of 
 the man and the lady's own maid. 
 These are the very Avitnesses a counsel 
 in common cases are desirous of having. 
 From the form of the action they can 
 seldom bring the man servant, or the 
 lady's maid servant ; but, if the counsel 
 can get hold of one of them, he con- 
 siders his case as proved, and that the 
 only question is the damages. It was 
 not on account of any want of imputing 
 the act that these witnesses did not 
 prove it — not from any deficiency of 
 forethought — not fro|n any restraint 
 which they imposed on themselves — ■ 
 not that they were wary in giving 
 their testimony. If you believe any 
 |)art of their testimony, you must be- 
 lieve that these parties threw oflf all 
 decorum, all trammels, all ordinary 
 prndence, giving way to their passions, 
 as if they had been in the hey-day of 
 their youthful blood, and joined to- 
 g( thtr by ties that made the indulgence 
 of them a virtue ; yet, with all tins 
 want of circumspection, the man's 
 serving man, and the lady's waiting 
 woman, are only able to prove circum- 
 stances by inference, from which they 
 are to make out the charge. When I 
 said there was no caution or circum- 
 spection, I mistook the case. If you 
 
MR. BROUGHAM. 
 
 187 
 
 believe these witnesses, and it is a cir- 
 cumstance shewing the improbability 
 of the ease to wluch I call your atten^ 
 tion — it' you believe any one part of 
 the evidence, not only was there no 
 caution used to prevent discovery, but 
 every degree of caution and care was 
 adopted to insure discovery by the 
 parties themselves which the wishes of 
 their most malis^nant adversary could 
 kave devised, in order to promote their 
 own disgrace. Observe how every 
 part of tins case is subject to this re- 
 mark, and then I leave the inference 
 to your lordships. You will even find 
 that just in proportion as the different 
 acts are suspicious, or of an unques- 
 tionably atrocious nature, exactly in 
 the same proportion do the parties 
 take care that there shall be good wit- 
 nesses to detect them. That is a fea- 
 ture that belongs to every part of this 
 case. It would be a probable case if 
 such features did not belong to it ; but 
 those features do prevent it from being 
 contemplated as appalling, for unless 
 the nature of the human mind and of 
 society are altered, no mortal ever be- 
 fore acted as the Queen has done. 
 "Walking arm and arm is a circumstance 
 light and doubtful, therefore it never 
 takes place but in the presence of one 
 witness ; but sitting together in an at- 
 titude of familiar proximity, is to be 
 proved by several witnesses, and those 
 who shew it to have been done, state 
 the fact with the addition of placing 
 the arm round ihe neck, or behind the 
 back, which raises it a step higher in 
 the scale, and makes it less equivocal. 
 The witnesses tell you that tliis hap- 
 •pened when the doors of the room 
 where they were sitting were open, 
 with no veil or curtain to conceal 
 them ; and where thousands were 
 walking in sight of the house : they 
 mention several salutes of the lips 
 were given and received, and this 
 raise*, the case still higher ; but it ap- 
 pears there never was a kiss between 
 these two lovers without especial pains 
 being taken that a third person should 
 be by, that while they enjoyed their 
 familiarities the bystanders might tell 
 the story. A witness is out of the room 
 when these familiarities are passing — 
 they must therefore wait till he returns 
 — they must wait till Majochi is pre- 
 sent to witness their conduct. They 
 are represented as sitting on asrun, or 
 near the mast of the vessel — the Queen 
 Bitting ou the kuecs of Bcrgauii. This 
 
 is an act still higher, and therelbre 
 may be proved. Lighter facts are 
 scantily proved by one witness only, 
 but, as that is an act of higher enoi- 
 mity, care is taken that it shall bo per- 
 petrated before two persons. Sitting 
 on a gun, with an arm round the waist 
 (notwithstanding it is but a slight Fami- 
 liarity), is such an act as leaves nothing 
 to be done, except the last act of de- 
 sire. This, therefore, must be com- 
 mitted in the presence of the whole 
 crew every time they are assembled — 
 not in the dark, but before sun-set, 
 openly in the presence of all the pas- 
 sengers. But the case is not left there, 
 as you may easily suppose. Persons 
 who ate so unwary against themselves, 
 such allies for their accusers, such 
 props to the case to be made out 
 against them, are not remiss in grant- 
 ing the last favour in the presence of 
 good and sufficient witnesses. Ac- 
 cordingly sleeping together has not 
 only taken place nightly and habitually, 
 but also always by land as well as by- 
 sea, in order that all might see it yAo 
 belonged to the adverse party. -Why, 
 so far is this carried, that Bergami 
 cannot retire with the Queen into the 
 anti-chamber, where she is to remain 
 an hour to change her clothes, and t© 
 put on a suit of a different sort, with- 
 out taking especial care that the trusty, 
 silent, honest, intriguing Swiss wait- 
 ing-maid shall be placed at the door of 
 the room — they must say to her, we 
 have occasion to go into the room for^ 
 quarter or half an hour; you may guess 
 what is to pass ; do you wait at the 
 door till we come out. I wish I could 
 stop here. There are features of equal 
 enormity in the other parts of the case, 
 and you will always find, that in pro- 
 portion as the revolting scenes are of a 
 nature to disgust, and almost to conta- 
 minate the mind of any one, however, 
 unconcerned, who is compelled to lis- 
 ten to them, exactly in the same pro- 
 pprtion is especial care taken that they 
 shall not be done in a corner — not 
 done in the recesses of those recepta- 
 cles of abomination the place affords — . 
 not in the secret haunts which lust has 
 degraded to its purposes— not in some 
 of those islands which the less scrupu- 
 lous inhabitants of ancient times devo- 
 ted to indecencies of a similar descrip- 
 tion : they cannot avail themselves of 
 these — they must commit their enor- 
 mities before witness in the broad day- 
 light, in open carriages, when the sun 
 
188 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 ii^ in the meridian. But even this is 
 not enough — to have them in the pub- 
 lic highway is not sufficient — they must 
 take care to have a courier of their 
 own, without a veil in any one part of 
 their carriage to conceal them ? I ask 
 you, whether vice was ever known so 
 unwary — witethcrfolly was ever known 
 so extravagant — whether unthinking 
 passion, even in the most youthful pe- 
 riod when the blood boils in the veins, 
 ever acted so thoughtlessly, so reck- 
 lessly as these parties have done. 
 When you have directed your mind to 
 this feature of the case let it operate as 
 ,4 caution when you come to examine 
 the evidence — but all this is nothing: 
 their kindness towards their enemy, 
 and their faithfulness to the plot against 
 themselves, would have been left short 
 indeed, if they had gone no further ; 
 for if it had only proceeded thus f*ir, it 
 would have depended on the good for 
 tune of the adversary in getting hold of 
 the witnesses, at least the principal 
 part of them ; therefore every one of 
 these witnesses, withoufone exception, 
 is either dismissed without a cause, 
 and refused to be taken back when 
 there was every human inducement to 
 restore them. This is not all. Her 
 Majesty, knowing what she had done, 
 rccollecliag her own contrivances 
 aware (jf all her cunning and elaborate 
 devices towards her own undoing, car- 
 rying before her eyes the picture of all 
 her schemes to render dett ction inevi- 
 table — retlecting too that she had 
 given the finishing stroke to the plot, 
 by turning off the witnesses whom she 
 knew had been planted to convict and 
 destroy her — knowing, also, that upon 
 her turning them away the enemy had 
 taken advantage, and had them in pre- 
 sidia ready to overwhelm her — having 
 been warned that they were here to 
 destroy her — that if she faced them she 
 was undone — advised, counselled, and 
 -implored to bethink herself well before 
 she ran so enormous a risk — notwith- 
 standing all these considerations, the 
 Queen comes to England, and is here 
 and confronts these witnesses, know- 
 ing that the threat against her was not 
 an empty threat, and seeing that it wa?- 
 on the point of being accomplished up 
 to the last moment ; and to this hour 
 she refuses a magnificent retreat, the 
 indulgence of all her propensities, the 
 uncontrolled licence of her conduct, 
 and even a safeguard and vindication 
 
 of her honour by the two Houses of 
 Parliament. If these are the linea- 
 ments by which vice is to be traced in 
 the human frame — if tliese are the 
 symptoms of the worst of all diseases, 
 the dereliction of principle carried to 
 excess, then I have ill read the human 
 mind; and it is groundle.-s to imagine 
 that guilt is wary, and innocence alone 
 confident and fearless. Attend now, 
 I beseech you, with this connnent on 
 the general features of the case, to the 
 sort of evidence by which such a case 
 is made out. I should exhaust myself, 
 besides fatiguing you, if I was to make 
 any observation on that part of the 
 case I have mow gone through. I will 
 satisfy myself with one observation. 
 It must have suggested itself to you, 
 that if an ordinary case could not be 
 proved by such evidence as I am now 
 commenting upon, and if it wotild re- 
 quire very different proof, a case such 
 as this ought to be sustained by evi- 
 dence unimpeachable, and most pure 
 and immaculate. I do not intend:— I 
 have no interest in saying, that a con- 
 spiracy has been formed. I say not 
 so ; I only will show yuu that if there 
 had been such — if any persons had 
 been minded to have ruined her Ma- 
 jesty, they could not have taken a bet- 
 ter course than that which the case has 
 proved. In any such design, the first 
 thing to be looked to is the agent. If 
 the attack is against the domestic 
 peace of an individual, and you are to 
 prove misconduct, who are the persons 
 likely to be resorted to but those I am 
 supposing to exist in order to make up 
 a story against the individual marked 
 for destruction In the first place, 
 they would have recourse to the ser- 
 vants who had ftved for years in the 
 family — they would furnish all that 
 would be desired ; but, if they were 
 foreigners who were to be well tutored 
 abroad, and then to deliver their story 
 where they were unknown — to be 
 broujiiht to a place where they had 
 never been in their days, and to tell 
 iheir story befwre a tiibunal that knew 
 no more of them than they knew of it 
 — whose wrath they had no reason to 
 dread — in a country where they did 
 not care two rushes whether they ever 
 returned to it or not — these would be 
 such servants as such - conspirators 
 w<Hdd choose. All foreiijners are not 
 made of the same materials ; but if any 
 one nation is marked bv the crime 
 
MR. BROUGHAM. 
 
 189 
 
 which I impute to these witnesses, it is 
 Italy, the country of Borghia. I speak 
 ot* it without imputing a disposition to 
 per jury in the nation at large in modern 
 times ;' but it any one was to predicate of 
 a country where perfidy and perjury 
 could be had for money, what spot 
 could be indicated better than Italy. 
 If a proportion of the respectable Ita- 
 lians will allow me to state the fact, I 
 say there are many I have the hap- 
 piness of knowinsj, in whose hands 
 I should think my life and honor safe 
 as in any of their lordships ; but I 
 s^ eak of those who have not been 
 brought here vhen I so pass my opinion 
 of tiiem. Those who have been 
 bioiiglit over here are of a far other 
 description. My lords, they were to 
 be gottin by various means, which the 
 carL'kssness of the party, which the 
 wealth and power of the supposed con- 
 spirators placed within their reach. 
 Money, accordingly, has been given, 
 with a liberality unheard of in any 
 other case even of conspiracy, and 
 where money would not operate power 
 was called into aid. Having thus pro- 
 cured their agents — having thus in- 
 trusted thenv — how were they marshal- 
 led to compass the common design? 
 Uniformity and agreement is necessary 
 in conspiracy ; accordingly, they are 
 first taken one by one, and carefully 
 examined before one and the same per- 
 son, assisted by the same coadjutors, 
 and even by the same clerks ; they are 
 moved in bodies along the country by 
 even the same couriers, and these cou- 
 riejs are not the ordinary runners of 
 thf Foreign Otiice of the country 
 %Thich shall be nameless, who had some 
 connection \nth the spot, but special 
 messengers whose attention is devoted 
 peculiarly to this department. Many 
 of the witnesses are used as messen- 
 gers which kopt the different witnesses 
 III the due recollection of their lessons, 
 and had the effect of encouraging the 
 zeal of those witnesses by giving them 
 an office, an intere)5t, a concern in the 
 plot that is going on. Observe then, 
 how the driliing goes on. It is not 
 done in a day, nor in a week, hardly 
 •in a year, but it extends over a long 
 ipace of time — it is going on for months 
 and years. The board is sitting at Mi- 
 lan ; there they git at the receipt of 
 .perjury; there they carry on their 
 operafions themsehes, ignorant of its 
 being perjury, but then so long as it 
 centinues »o much the more likely is 
 
 this gross perjury to take place ; tlicy 
 are paid for their evidence, the tale 
 is propagated by the person receiv- 
 ing the money, carrying it to his own 
 neighbourhood, and he becomes the 
 parent of a thousand tales, to be 
 paid equally as they deserve, for one 
 is as false as the other. You mark 
 the care with which it is treated^ 
 there is not a witness brought here 
 without passing through the Milan 
 trial, because if they passed without 
 that there would be a want of union; 
 so that even the mate who was brought 
 here to be examined on the morning 
 aftf r his arrival, was brought through 
 Milan, and passed his examination be- 
 fore the same persons who had taken 
 the former examinations ; aye, and the 
 captain is carried by the way oi" Milan, 
 to have a conversation with his old 
 friend, who the year before had exa- 
 mined him to the same story. Here 
 then, by these means recruited, with 
 this still marshalled, with all this 
 apparatus and pieparation, made ready 
 to come to the field where they are 
 to operate, you have the witnesses 
 safely landed in England ; and in 
 order that they may be removed from 
 thence, suddenly, all in a mass they are 
 living together while here; then they 
 are carried over to Holland, and after- 
 wards returned here, and finally depo- 
 sited a day or two before their well- 
 earned services and well-earned mo- 
 ney, I think, require them to appear 
 before your lordships. They are kept 
 together in masses, formerly they lived 
 in separate rooms ; it was ne<essary 
 not to bring them together before, 
 but those of feeble recollection, it'was 
 necessary afterwards to keep t<»gether 
 for the convenience of mutual commu- 
 nication : there they were communica- 
 ting to each other their experience, 
 with the same zeal, founded on the 
 same motives, to the same common 
 cause*. 
 
 But according to the parts of the 
 story which tliey were to make out be- 
 fore your lordships, they were put to- 
 gether. There are two Piedmontese ; 
 they did not associate together, but one 
 of them kept company with the mate and 
 captain, b« cause he tells the same tale 
 with themselves. It is needless to add, 
 that they are here cooped up in a state of 
 confinemeut ; here they are without 
 communication with any body, ignorant 
 of any thing that is going on around 
 them, aud brought from that prison by 
 
]00 
 
 Dtl-ENCE OF THK QUEExV. 
 
 these iBe'dti"*. in order to t^pll the story 
 M inch, by J^ucli means, lias been brought 
 iii amonfT thoiu. 
 
 " My lords, I fear I niayap|>ear to 
 have undervalued the character of 
 these Italian^ ; sutler me, then, to for- 
 tify myself upon this subject by saying, 
 I am not the j>erson who has formed 
 . such ?.n estimate of the lowest orders 
 of that country ; and perhaps it may 
 be some assistance to your lordships, 
 possi!>Iy some relief to the discussion 
 of this evidence, if I carry yonr lord- 
 ships some way back to the histoiy of 
 this country, and I shall take care not 
 to do it to any remote period, or to cir- 
 cumst.'^uces different from those which 
 Biink our present day; I, naturally, 
 tlHrn, 20 back to the reign of Henry 
 the Ei;,hlh, and the proceedini^sajwain^ft 
 Katiiavine of Arragou, and I shall shew 
 yonr lordships in what way v, e have a 
 rifj'it to view the Iialian authorities of 
 a higher cast. Yoijr lordships will 
 find in ilna records of that a^e, in Ry- 
 mer's collection, forae <'urious docu- 
 auentsMiih respeit to the proceedings 
 of Henry \ lU. the grf**: object, as 
 you know, was to };roc«re and consult 
 the Oj>inions, the free unbiassed opi- 
 nions, of the Italian jurists in favour of 
 his divorce. 1 will now give you a 
 specimen of that^ivhich resembles our 
 «?vidence : the sentiaic^it I give yoa is 
 that of the wiost celebrated of the 
 whole, who is known ?)y the appellation 
 of Bologna, the Learned. The doctors 
 there say, one and all, '' Soli verljtati 
 uiBitcnti casu prius per unumquemque 
 nostvnni sigelhitun domibus projriis 
 examinato." They had taken the care, 
 irhich your lord<;hip3 have taken on 
 the present occasion, to sift the evi- 
 dence, and then they conae in, ** »S^m- 
 Biaqiio solertia per dies plurimos con- 
 trectato iiluni una mox o*dimis ex- 
 amiuaverlunis coutulimus;" and a great 
 many other phrases are used, meacing ' 
 the same things, and then having well t 
 weighed the matter, *• adaraassimqne I 
 singula qna^que pertractantes ponder- ! 
 avimus mtionesqiii-cuinqnec-ontrarios. ' 
 Cecsemus judican^us dicifmis cons^an- ! 
 tissime testamur.'' Tii^y s^y Harrv- I 
 VIII. has a right to divorce his queen ! 
 for the.se reasons, and they appc^ar to ; 
 have taken, by d singidar coincidence I 
 asrabj, pretty nearly the sa.«'?. precau- •' 
 tion vhich has been taken here to | 
 f\vea? . whidj they might do with a } 
 fcafe con5cicncr, thni they liad never J 
 x^eued their muuiiis lo cue auelUeJ' on I 
 
 the subject. " That they never had 
 directly or indirectly communicated 
 their sentence or any words or thing 
 concerning the same by signs, word, 
 or deed or hint, until a certain day," 
 which was the day they all came to 
 understan*! the matter, which answers 
 to their coming into this court, with 
 the difference of the time of the day. 
 Now, my lords, all this appeared per- 
 fectly safe; the fact was, every pre- 
 caution was taken to meet all objec- 
 tions, and it would all look quite well 
 to the present day, if there had been 
 no such thing as a good historian and 
 honest man, in the person of Bishop 
 Burnett; and he, with his usual inno- 
 cence, being a great advocate of Harry 
 VIII., tells the tale in the way which 
 I am now going to state, still leaning 
 towards that king; but, undoubtedly, 
 letting: o'Jt a little that is rather against 
 himself. Harry first provided himself 
 with an able agent — and it was neces- 
 sary that he should also be a learned one; 
 he tool one then, to whom my learned 
 friend's euIogiu-!u on the head of the 
 Milan cojnmission would apply in some 
 of the vwords — a man of great skill and 
 probity- -his name was Cock also, and 
 " he went up and down (says Burnet) 
 procurir.;^ the lands, and he told them 
 lie cam:' to that he desired they would 
 v.rite thtur conclusions according to 
 conscience ('ai* I hope has been done 
 at Milaii }, without any respect to fa- 
 vor, as they wiuld answer at the last 
 dav ; and he protested (just as I have 
 hear J ?o;neoth« r persons do) he never 
 gave nor promised any divine any 
 tmn^ till he had first fret ly written his 
 min«v ; and he says, " that what he 
 then gave was to be considered as an 
 honourable present rather than a re- 
 ward."-— As a compensation, not a re- 
 compense. Those were the v.ords used 
 in tiiat conutry as they are in this. 
 Now we have a letter from this agent, 
 as who I news '200 years hence there 
 may be httcrs from Milan, we have 
 not them, and we are obliiied to go to 
 Cooks letter; he says, ** My fidelity 
 bindcth vxe to advcrtiie yonr highness, 
 that all Lutherans be utterly against 
 yoiii' highness in this cause, and have 
 told as" much ,wirh their wretched 
 power, malice without reason or au- 
 thority as they could and might : but 
 I doubt not," (says he) ""that all 
 Christian Universities, in contradis- 
 tinction to Lutheran — that all Christian 
 ^linister?, if they be well haadled. 
 
MR. BROUGHAM. 
 
 191 
 
 will earnestly conclude withyonr high- 
 ness; albeit, fjracious lord, (now comes 
 he to expound,) if that 1 had in time 
 been snffiriontly fuririiiicd with money 
 — albeit I have procured unto your 
 highuess 110 subscribers, yet it had 
 been nothiua; in comparison of that that 
 I mi^ht easily and would have done — 
 in most humble wise beseeching your 
 most royal clemency to ponder my 
 true love and good endeavouring, and 
 not suffer me to be destitute of money 
 to my undoing, and the utter loss of 
 your most hij^h catiscs here." Now 
 this, undoubtedly, is one history of the 
 case ; but we have only seen the ac- 
 coflnts of Bishop Burnett; bur tlie 
 Vilmarcati, the Italian, left his ()a}>eis 
 behind him, and we are furnished \vi!h 
 the tariff of the Doctor's opinions in 
 Italy. " Item, to a servite inan whom 
 he subsisted, one crown ; to a Jew, one 
 crown ; to the doctor of the servants, 
 two crowns; item, to the prior of St. 
 John's and St. Paul, who wrote for the 
 king's cause, fifteen crowns." The 
 author was better paid then than the 
 advocate, as often happens in better 
 times. *• Item. Given to John Maira, 
 for his expence of going to Milan, and 
 for rewarding the doctors there, thirty 
 crowns." And there is a letter from 
 the Bishop of Worcester, who directs 
 that " he should not promise rewards, 
 except to them that lived by them, to 
 the canonists, who did not use to give 
 their opinions without a fee." The 
 others he might get cheaper.— Those 
 he must open his hand to, " because," 
 he says, " the canonists, the civilians 
 did not use to give an opinion without 
 a fee," differing from this case, be- 
 cause they have not favoured us with 
 any opinion. 
 
 My lords, the descendants of those 
 divines and doctors, I am sorry to say, 
 have rather improved than backslidden 
 from the virtues of their ancestors; 
 and accordingly, I trnst your lordships 
 will also permit me to bring the. tale 
 down to the present day; to connect 
 this proceeding with the divorce in 
 Harry the Eighth's time, I trust yon 
 will let me read the testimony given in 
 1792, of a native of Italy, of distin- 
 guished family, who wah employed in a 
 diplomatic character, by an august 
 character, who was aicar bein« the 
 victim of an Italian conspiracy ; he 
 
 ?nblished a letter, and it is evidence, 
 say, because it was published before 
 the whqle Italians in their own tongue, 
 
 and it states what Tialian* evidence is 
 made of, and he addressed it with his 
 name to the prime minister of the 
 country; that minister enjoying the 
 highest civil and military auUiority 
 there, and being by descent a subject 
 of the British crown — I mean General 
 Acton. To th«? dishonour of human 
 nature, there is nothing at Naples so 
 notorious as the free and public sale of 
 false evidence. Their ordinary tariff 
 is three or four ducats, according to 
 the necessities of those who sell, and 
 the occasions of those who buy it. lt\ 
 then, yon would support a suit, alter 
 a wiii, or forge a hand-writing, you 
 have only to cast away remorse, and 
 open your purse — the shop of perjury 
 is ever open." It poured in upon him 
 in a full-tide : he made his appeal in 
 snch words as I have now read; he 
 and his royal master, who were impli- 
 cated in the charge, were acquitted by 
 such an appeal ; and I now repeat it> 
 when such evidence is bronyht to sup- 
 port charges as atrocious, as ruinous, 
 and far more incredible in themselves 
 than that an Italian should have 
 subonn d an agent to injure a fellow 
 creature. 
 
 My lords, I have been drawn aside 
 from the observation I was makinij 
 generally of the manner in which this 
 case has been prepared. I pray yon 
 to observe how these witnesses all act 
 after they come into Court; and the 
 first thing that must strike an observer, 
 here is the way in which they mend 
 their evidence — how one improve* 
 upon the other after an interval of 
 time, and how each improves when re- 
 quired upon himself. I can only pro- 
 ceed, my lords, in dealing with this 
 subject of conspiracy and false swear- 
 ing by sample ; but I will take the one 
 that first strikes me, and I think it will 
 effectually illustrate my proposition: 
 you remember the manner in which the 
 Attorney-General opened the case of 
 Mahomet, the dancer: again, I take 
 his own words, a man of the most brutal 
 and depraved habits, who, at the Villa 
 d'Este, exhibited the greatest mdeceu- 
 cies in the presence of her Majesty; 
 exhibitions which are too disgusting 
 to be more than alluded to ; the most 
 indecent attitudes to imitate the sexual 
 intercurse; this person deserves not 
 the name o."a man, says the Attorney- 
 General : now I lake this instance, 
 because it shews the proposition that 
 I was stating to your lordships better 
 
192 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 than any other — perhaps all shpw it to 
 a d« gree, but t\i.s best of all, because 
 I have shewn your lordships how care- 
 ful tiie Attorney-General is in opening 
 tlie case, and how strong his expres- 
 sions are — consequently, he felt the 
 importance of this fact — he knew how 
 daniaginj> it would he to the Queen — 
 he knew it was important to state this, 
 and he felt determined not to be dis- 
 appeiiiled, whtnlje had been once and 
 again foiled; he brous^ht thrae wit- 
 nesses, and if one would not swear the 
 first time, he brought him again. Now, 
 if I shew the symptoms of mendinj' 
 and patching in such a case, it operates 
 as vohinies asrainst their case ; and if 
 'yon find it hero, you may guess it is 
 not wanting elsewhere; but he.re it is 
 »nost manifest to be seen. Your lord- 
 ships plainly perceive what it was that 
 these witnesses intended to say — you 
 no sooner heard the first question put 
 —you no sooner heard the leading 
 
 ?ne>tions with which the Solicitor- 
 Jeneral followed it, than you must 
 liave known it was expected an inde- 
 cent act would be sworn to — that it 
 vrould he sworn it was an exhibition 
 of the most srross and indecent de- 
 scription, and one part of the evidonce 
 I can hardly recount to your lord- 
 sliips. Now see how the fir^t witness 
 swore — this is their tirst and main wit- 
 ness, who proves tli* ir whole case — ^lie 
 rarries throngh the whole case (Ma- 
 jochi) — he will only say, and this is 
 the first stage in which this deity is 
 brought before your lordships. At 
 first he will only allow it is a dance. 
 ** Did you observe any thing else?" 
 The usual answer — ^^ Non mi ricordo ; 
 tut if there was I have not seen it, 
 and I do not know." " Did he use 
 any part of his dress?" says the Soli- 
 citor-General, evidently tiilking from 
 what he had seen written down. *' No, 
 he used it as usual." " How did he 
 use his trovvsers— did he not use his 
 turban or trowsers?" " His trowsers 
 were always in the same state as usual." 
 Here then was a complete failure : no 
 siiadow of preof of those mysteries 
 which this witness was expected to 
 divulge. Thi§ was when he was ex- 
 ami i»ed on the Tuesday ; on Friday, 
 with the interval of two days, and 
 your lordships, for reasons best known 
 to yourselves, but which must have 
 proceeded from justice, guided by wis- 
 dom, which is never inor^ seen or 
 evinced than in varying the course of 
 
 conduct, and adapting to new circum- 
 stances the actions we wish to do, 
 which will not, if it is perfect in its 
 kind, and absolute in its degree, siKier 
 by the deviation. For that reason 
 alone, in order, that injustice might not 
 be done, what in one case may be in- 
 jurious to a defendant, nmy be ex- 
 pected mainly to assist a defendant in 
 another; and your lordships, not with 
 a view to injure the Queen, your lord- 
 ships, with a view to further the ends 
 of justice, allowed the evidence to be 
 printed wiiich afforded the witnesses^ 
 if they wished it, m^ans to mend and 
 improve upon their evidence. Your 
 lordships allowed this solely with the 
 intention of gaining for the Queen the 
 verdfct which the country lias pro- 
 nounced in her favour, by looking at 
 the ca^^e against her. Your lordships, 
 however, allowed all the evidence 
 against her to be published from day 
 to day; accordingly, about two days 
 intervened between Majochi's evi- 
 dence and BiroUo's, during which Bi- 
 rollo had access to Majochi's deposi- 
 tion, as well as to his person ; and it is 
 no little assistance, if we have not only 
 access to the witness, but to his testi- 
 mony, because he may forget what he 
 has sworn ; and it is something that he 
 should see, as well as the second and 
 the mending witness, the story he has 
 told. Accordingly, with a facility 
 which this gave him, came forward 
 Birollo. After two days interval he 
 improves upon the story : from a dance, 
 and from the usual handling, or ordi- 
 nary use of the trowsers, he made a 
 rotula or roll. The witness then be- 
 gins to hint at sonie indecency, but he. 
 does not mention it, he starts and 
 draws back — for my part, I cannot 
 tell what he meant, but he really adds 
 something which he might think inde- 
 cent in his wicked imagination, but he 
 was forced to admit he did not know 
 what it meant ; but one witness after- 
 wards comes, and he finishes it alto- 
 gether : he improves even on Birollo, 
 and he tells you in plain downright 
 terms that which I have a right to say, 
 because I know I can prove it, to be 
 false ; which I have a right to say 
 now, before proving it was false, be- 
 cause I know the same dance was wit- 
 nessed by wives and daughters as mo- 
 dest and pure as any of your lordships 
 have the happiness of possessing— by 
 wives and daughters of your lordships 
 in those countries. Now another im- 
 
MR. BROUGHAM. 
 
 103 
 
 provement and mending snfFcr me to 
 advert to, for it runs through the whole 
 case : I i\o not even stop upon the 
 Non mi ricordo of Majochi, which, 
 after the impression it made the first 
 day was rejjulurly dropped by the 
 other witnesses substituting other 
 terms ; !\ut I wish to call your lord- 
 ship's attention to a more important 
 matter. No sooner had the captain 
 and mate proved that they were 
 brought here by sums so inadequate to 
 t!ie service, by smn? beyond even the 
 most ample remuneration for their 
 work, that they had sums such as 
 Italians, in their situations, never 
 .dreamed of — no sooner was this drop- 
 ped, than one and all are turned into 
 disinterested witne<ses, not one of 
 whom ever received a shilling for what 
 they did : half-a crown a day, my tra- 
 velling expences, and a fmv stivers to 
 feed my family. The expectation of 
 his expences began in the instance of 
 the cook, Borillo, he told you he had 
 had nothiuir but his trouble in coming 
 here. '* What do you expect when 
 you go back? — Only the happiness of 
 being allowed to return to my maoler." 
 TJje cook at first was offered, and "re- 
 fused money ; the other had nothing 
 offered. De Mont nothing — Sacchi 
 nothing — though true he, a courier, 
 turns out to be a man of large property, 
 and who says, thank God I have al- 
 ways been in easy circumstances — • 
 thank God, v. ith a gratitude truly edi- 
 fying — a man who must have had a 
 servant of his own, who had one in 
 England, who must live here at the 
 expence of four or five hundred pounds 
 a-year, which is equal to fourteen or 
 fifteen hundred in Italy, goes to be a 
 courier, is angry at being turned off, 
 and is anxious to relnrn. I believe 
 tlie captain and the niate, they avowed 
 what they had to be enormous pay- 
 ment, and others knowing the effect of 
 that confession, one and all ever since 
 have denied receiving any thing, and 
 they would not confess that they had 
 any future expectation. The last of 
 these general observations with which 
 T shall trouble yonr lordships, I own I 
 think you must have been impatient I 
 should come to, I mean the great 
 blanks among the witnesses for the 
 prosecution ; I mean the fewness df 
 those witnesses, compared with what 
 their own testimony and their own 
 {>tatement that introduced it, show 
 
 : '25 
 
 yotir lordships they ought to have 
 called. My lords, I conjure you to 
 attend to this, for it is a most important 
 point in the whole of this case. I say, 
 that if I had not another argument to 
 urge, I should stand confidently upon 
 this ground, if the case was as ordinary 
 as it is extravagant j if it were as pro- 
 bable as it is loaded in every feature 
 with the grossest impossibility ; if it 
 were as possible that such things 
 should have happened and be done 
 by such men as it is the very reverse, 
 I should still stand confidently and. 
 steadily upon that part of the case to 
 which I have now happily arrived. 
 I know, my lords, that it is a rash, and 
 bold, and even too rash a thing to say 
 so much of a point before I have began 
 to hint at it, but I feel so persuaded, 
 so convinced this is of itself a material 
 consideration in such a case as this — 
 fatal to the bill, that I think I have 
 ever acted prudently by telling you all 
 that passed in my mind respecting it. 
 The Attorney-General told us, that 
 there were rumours at Naples why the 
 Queen's ladies had left her; it turned 
 out that instead of leaving her, one 
 had joined her at Naples, one joined 
 her at Leghorn, and another at Genoa 
 afterwards ; but he said one left her, 
 and one or two others staid behind,- 
 and rumohrs were not wanting that it 
 was owing to the impropriety of her 
 conduct : rumours he could not prove ; 
 but no doubt, if the rumours were 
 founded, they were such as he had a 
 right to allude to; but if there had 
 been a shadow of a ground for those 
 rumours, he had those witnesses to "call. 
 Where were these ladie.5, women of 
 high rank, and great station in society, 
 well known in their own country ; 
 loved, esteemed, and respected as 
 known women, upon whose character 
 not a vestige of imputation has ever 
 rested; women of talent as well as 
 character, the very persons to have 
 brought forward, if he had durst 
 brought them forward ; and the very 
 signal, and I had almost said, extrava- 
 gant contrast to ail the witnesses but 
 two, whom my learned friend^did ven- 
 ture to bring to your lordships' bar, 
 why were they not produced to your 
 lordships? Why have we not the bene- 
 fit, as well as your lordships, of having 
 the case proved against us, as any 
 judge sitting at the Old Bailey would 
 command, upon pain of an acquittal, 
 
194 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QtlEEJ^. 
 
 any prosecutor to prove ajrainst any 
 felon they were in our einploynient — 
 they were somewhat coniit'cted with 
 us — they were in the pay of the Queen, 
 and juight be supposed to be amicably 
 disposed towainis us : is that the rea- 
 son fpr not caliins: them? I am not 
 speaking of a civil action — I am not 
 dealing with a plaintiff's case in a suit 
 upon a bill of exchange of twenty 
 pounds ; I am here, not on a misde- 
 meanor, or a felony, or the highest 
 crime known in the law, from wliich 
 this only differs in a technical distinc- 
 tion, but I am here on a Bill of Pains 
 and Penalties, which you are not bound 
 to pass — which you mtiV give tlic go-by 
 to — which you arc not bound to say 
 Aye or No to, as a Commi'i.sion trying 
 High Treason is. Gracious God! is 
 this a case in wiiich the prosecutor is 
 to be allow ed to bring forward half a 
 case, and to say these w itncsscs I will 
 not call — true it is, they are the best, 
 true that they are respectable, and that 
 they are unimpeachable no man can 
 deny — if theyswear againstthe Queen, 
 she is utterly undone ; but I will not call 
 them : I will leave them for you, they 
 are not my witnesses, you call them, 
 they come from your vicinity ; thoy 
 do not belong to Cotton Garden, and 
 therefore I dare not, I will not pro- 
 duce them ; but when yt u cull them 
 we shall sea what they stf-te; and if 
 you do not call tliem, in tlte name of 
 justice, what? I say, for shame— in 
 this temple — this higlicst temple of jus- 
 tice— to have her most sacred roof so 
 profaned, that I am to be condemned 
 in the plentitude of proof? if guilt is, 
 that I am to be condenioed, unless T 
 g« counter to the presumption which 
 rules in all courts of justice, that I auj 
 innocent till I am proved guilty. I 
 am here utterly ruined, u"'^'^^ 1 call 
 my adversary's witnesses, itiy lords: 
 my lords! if you mean ever to show 
 the face of those symbols by which 
 justice is known to your country, with- 
 out making it stand an eternal con- 
 demnation to yourselves, I call upon 
 you instantly to dismiss this case, and 
 for this reason, v-nd I will say not 
 another word upon it. My lords, 
 perhaps your lordships will allow me 
 a short interval, as I am now coming 
 upon another part of the case. 
 
 Having retire d for three-quarters of 
 an tour, Mr. Brougham proceeded as 
 follows :-*- 
 
 ** My Lords, I have humbly to return 
 
 my thanks to your lordships for tii«» 
 indidgence with whic'i you have Kindly 
 favoured me. I have now to solicit 
 the attention of your io: d>-hip», ami t 
 am afraid at greater length than any 
 tiling could jusLify but the nuparalleUd 
 importance of the occasion, to a con- 
 sideration more in detail of the evi- ^ 
 dence by which this case I'as l>cen at- 
 tempted to be sut>j)orted ; and in point 
 of time, as indeed of impoitauce, the 
 first figy.re that was presented to y( ur 
 lordships in ilie group must natutittly 
 arise to your recollection the moment 
 I announced my intention cf goiiig- 
 into my particular detail oi" iiie merits 
 of the difl'ercnt witnesses — I mean 
 'J'heodore Majochi, of happy memory, 
 who will be long known in this countiy, 
 and evtry where else, much after the 
 manner in wliich ancient sages have 
 reaci)(d our day, whose nances are lost 
 in the celebrity of li»e iitile sayings, by 
 vviiich each is now distinguished by 
 mankind, raid in which they were 
 known to have embodied the practical 
 result of their own experience and 
 wisdom, and as long as those words 
 v\hich he so often used in the practice 
 of iTliut art and skill which he had ac- 
 quired by long experience and much ~ 
 care — as long as tiiose words shall be 
 known anion/: men, llie ima^' oi" Ma- 
 jochi, without naming him, will arise 
 to their remembrance. Myloru^l he 
 is a witness of great iniporlance ia 
 this cause, first called, latej i continiriUg 
 l>y the case, and accompanying it 
 uirougliout. - His evidence almost ex- 
 tended over the whole period tlirough 
 which the case and the charge itself 
 extends; in f«ct only dismissed, or 
 rather retiring, and refused to be taken 
 back about the tiuie when the charge 
 closed. He and Dumont stand aloof 
 from the rest, and resemble each otiicr 
 in lids particular; they go throisgh the 
 case, they are tiie witnesses to prove 
 it, thfiy arj? the witnesses for the bill ; 
 the others confirn;aiory only of thrnv 
 hut as williiig witnesses are wont to , 
 do, as those who have received much, 
 and been promised more, thty were 
 zealous on behalf of their employeic, 
 and did not stop short of the two ina'iri 
 witnesses, but Ihey each carried the 
 case a great deal further; this is ge- 
 nerally, v^ith -A viewio their relative 
 importance, the character of all the | 
 witnesses. Now only let me entreat' 
 your lordships a little more in detail ' 
 for their merits. I have often heard it 
 
Mil. BROUGHAM. 
 
 195 
 
 i-einavkcMl, that t!io sircat prcvailinu: 
 todtiu;> of iSlajocljr.s evidence situniths 
 in truth but little, bpcaiisp a man may 
 toilet. IMcmorins diiTcr— I jfrnnt th.y 
 di»; memory 'litlVrs as well as honesty 
 in man. I do not deny tliat; bnt I 
 think I sl'.all succood in shewing y(»ur 
 lo:d<!nps, that there is a sort of me- 
 mory wliicli is naturally inconsistent 
 v.ith any dcjjree of honesty in any man, 
 I can tiici'.rc to my^eif — !)ut why do X 
 t.slk of fancy, for I have only to recol- 
 lect Majochi — and I know cases, in 
 wiiich 1 defy the wit of man to con- 
 ceive stronger or plainer instances of 
 I'alse swearing than may he conveyed 
 to the hearers and the con it in the 
 words, " i do not remember." I will 
 Dot detain yonr lord:^.iips by putting 
 cases where " I do not lemember'' 
 won'd be ivmocent, where it might be 
 meritorious, where it might be contiini- 
 at:on of his evidence, and a support 
 to his credit ; neither need I put casi s 
 the reverse of this, where it would be 
 destructive to Ins credit, a demoiition 
 of his testimony. I have them in the 
 witness ; for if I had been lecturing 
 on evidence, I should have said, as the 
 innocent forgetfulness is familiar to 
 every man, so is the guMty forgetful- 
 ness ; and in giving an instance, I 
 should just have found it all in Pvla- 
 jochi's evidence. Now at once to give 
 your lordships proof positive that this 
 man is perjured — proof I shall shew 
 to be positive from his mode of forget- 
 ting. I come at once to the way in 
 which he swore hardily in chief — eke, 
 as h irdily in cross-examination to the 
 position of the rooms of her Majesty 
 and Bergami. The great object of 
 the Attorney- General was that for 
 which the previous concoction of this 
 plan by these witnesses had prepared 
 him, namely, to prove the position of 
 the Queen's and liergami's rooms al- 
 ways to have been favourable to the 
 ronnnission of adultery, by shewing 
 that they were near and had a mutual 
 communication ; whereas the rooms of 
 all the rest of the suite were distant 
 anu cut off; and the second part of 
 that statement was just as essential as 
 the first to make it the foundation of 
 the inference of guilt, which it was 
 Tneant to support. Accordingly, the 
 first witness who was to go over their 
 ■whole case appears to have been better 
 prepared on this point than any ten 
 that followed — more inferences— more 
 tVuitfulness iu detail — perfect rtcoUec- 
 
 tioji, to attack the Queen — utter for- 
 getfulness, to protect himself from the 
 >«irfing of a cioss-examir.ation. Wiierc 
 (lid the Queen and Bergami sleep? — 
 Her Majesty slept in an apartment 
 neai- that of Bergami. Were those 
 apartments near or remote ? for it vas 
 often so good a thing to get them near 
 aid communicatin:.', that it was pressed 
 again and again. Where \^ere the rest 
 ofthe suite, where they distant ornear? 
 says the Solicitor-General. This was 
 at Naples; and this is a specimen of 
 the rest; for more was made of that 
 proximity at Naples than any where ' 
 else — Were they near or distant? — 
 They were apart. The word in Iialian 
 was " loutina," which was interpreted 
 apart — (Vistant he meant, for he meant 
 nothing by this statement if he did not 
 mean that : he then had sworn dis- 
 tinctly from his positive recollection, 
 and hud put his credit on the truth of 
 the fact, and also on his recollection of 
 it upon this, whetl>.cr or not the Queen s 
 room was near Bergami's, with a com- 
 munication ; but no less had he put his 
 credit upon this other branch of his 
 statement, essential to the first, in 
 order to make both combined the foun- 
 dation of a charge of criminal inter- 
 course, that the rest of the suite were 
 lodged apart aud distant. There is 
 an end then of innocent forgetfulness ; 
 if, when I come to ask where the fest 
 slept, he either tells me I do not know, 
 or I do not recollect ; because he had 
 known, and must have recoUected, that 
 when he pr( sumcd to say to my learned 
 friends, these two rooms were near 
 and conu'^cted, the others were distant 
 and apart; when he said that, he af- 
 firmed his recollection ofthe proximity 
 of those rooms, and the remoteness of 
 tl'.e others, he swore that at first, and 
 aftei-wards said, " I know not," or " I 
 recollect not ;" and perjure<l himself 
 as plainly as if he had told you that he 
 sav/ a person on Oiie day, and the next 
 day said, he never saw him in his life. 
 The one is not a more diametrical con- 
 tradiction than the other. Trace him 
 in his recollection and forgetfulness, 
 observe where he remembers and where 
 he forgets, and you will find the same 
 conclusion following you every where, 
 and forcing that construction. I will 
 give one specimen from the evidence 
 itself, to shew you he has no lack of 
 memory when it is to suit his purpo^se, 
 when it is to prove a story where he 
 has learned his lesson, and when he is 
 
196 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN, 
 
 examined in chief and knows who is 
 dealing: with him, and only anxious to 
 carry on the attack. I will shew you 
 what hi", recollection is made of — you 
 shall have a sample of his recollection 
 here : *' Have you ever seen the Villa 
 d'ErSte since the time you came back 
 from the long voyage?' He had been 
 examined in chief upon this, and had 
 stated distinctly, with respect to the 
 Villa d'Este, the state of the rooms, 
 and I wanted to show his recollection 
 on those parts where he was well 
 drilled. " Have you ever seen the 
 Villa d'Este since the time you came 
 back from the long voyage?" — " I liave." 
 **Was the position of the rooms the 
 same as it had been before with re- 
 spect to the Queen and Bergami ?" — 
 " They were not in the same situation." 
 Then he gives a very minute particular 
 of the alteration — a small corridor was 
 on one side of the Princess's room on 
 her return. " Was there a sitting-room 
 on the other side of it, not opposite, 
 but on one of the other sides,?" Now 
 attend to the particularity: *' There 
 •was a small corridor on the left, of 
 ■which there was a door that led into 
 the room of the Princess, which was 
 only locked, and then going a little 
 further on in the corridor, there was 
 on the left hand a small room, and op- 
 posite to this small room vv.as another 
 door which led into the room where 
 they supped in the evening. There 
 was this supping-room on the right, 
 then was a door which led into Ber- 
 gami's room, and on the same ri^hr 
 hand of the same room, there was a 
 small alcove, where there was the bed 
 of Bartolomeo Bergami. How many 
 doors were there in the small siiting- 
 l^oom where they supped-? — I saw two 
 doors open always, but theie was a 
 third stopped by a picture." '' AVhere 
 did her Koyal Highness's maid sleep?" 
 . — " On the other side, in another apart- 
 inent." Now, can any recollection be 
 more minute, more accurate, more per- 
 fect in every respect, than his rccol- 
 ]ecti( n is of all these minute details 
 whic!' he thinks it subservient to his 
 purpose to give distinctly, be they true 
 or be they not. I dtx not deny them ; 
 my case is tl.at much of what is true 
 is brought forwards; but they graft 
 falsehood on it, which is the only way 
 pf making outa>tory; to build from 
 top to bottom on falsehood will never 
 do ; but upon a little truth you nay 
 jaise a tale which, with a good deal of 
 
 drilling, may put an honest man s life, 
 or an illustrious Princess's reputation, 
 in jeopardy. Now I only wi^h your 
 lordships to contrast with this accu- 
 racy of recollection upon this subject, 
 and upon many other points, a few of 
 which I shall give you specimens of 
 his not having the slightest recollection 
 of a whole new wingjiaving been built 
 at the Princess's villa. He remembers 
 a slight alteration of a door; he does 
 not recollect the throwing up of a new 
 wing to the house. 
 
 Now, I only wisti your lordships to 
 contrast the accuracy of his recollec- 
 tion with that of his knowledge. He 
 stated that he had not the slightest re- 
 collection of a whole new wing having 
 been added to the Villa d'Este. Ail 
 he says is, " I remember a slight alter- 
 ation." That 1 think is not only a 
 captious answer, but it is a dishonest 
 one. Observe how much he knows of 
 time when it suits his purpose, and how 
 little of tact. When speaking of the 
 celebrated scenes at Naples, he remem- 
 bers time to minutes. Upon two occa- 
 sions he mentions Beigami as being 
 with the Princess : on the first he says 
 they remained together from ten to 
 fifteen minutts, and on the second from 
 fifteen to eighteen ; that is to say, 
 taking a medium of sixteen minutes 
 and a half each time. On another 
 occasion he tells you, that an affair 
 lasted a quarter of an houf. He first 
 speaks of three minutes and a half, 
 then three uiinutes, and before he goes 
 up stairs, fifteen minutes altogether 
 elapse. In another instance, he speaks 
 of three quarters of an hour. All Ihi.s 
 accuracy, your lordships will observe, 
 is displayed, \vhen he is examined in 
 chief by the Attorney-General ; and his 
 punctilious exactness as to time, evi- 
 dently shews a desire to garnish his 
 detail, after it had been made up, and 
 thereby to give it an appearance of ac- 
 curacy, so essential to his purpose. 
 But when I (whp am not of counsel for 
 the prosecution, but for the defence) 
 come to ask him questions, his accu- 
 racy totally leaves him, and his memory 
 as to time is completely lost. He then 
 does not know whether he travelled all 
 night, four hours,, or eight hours. In 
 answer to a question of that kind, he 
 very flippantly answers, " I had no 
 watch, and I liave no recollection of 
 the length of time." Had he a watch 
 when he mentioned the time the Queers 
 came into the room, asd when it suited' 
 
MR, BROUGHAM. 
 
 1D7 
 
 his purpose to know the time to a mi- 
 iiute? Why no, he had not, and this 
 shews tliat his memory was accurate 
 only when it suited his purpose. Why 
 should he be so ignorant and forgetful 
 of time and circumstances for want of 
 a watcli, at one period more than ano- 
 ther, but because it did not suit him to 
 be accurate when interrogated for the 
 purpose of the defence, or, which came 
 to the same thing, because the whole 
 of his statement was founded in false- 
 hood. With respect also to calculation 
 of numbers, he is as much at fault as 
 he is as to time. He cannot tell whe- 
 ther two or twenty-two sailors were on 
 board the polacca ; neither can he speak 
 accurately as to place. He himself slept 
 in the hold of the vessel, but he cannot 
 tell where the crew were either by 
 night ornby day. In short, a more va- 
 rious memory, or one more exactly 
 suited to the different capacities in 
 which he appears as a witness, could 
 not be exhibited to the observation of 
 this or any other tribunal that ever ex- 
 isted. This, however, isnot all; because 
 there is as much in " I don't recollect," 
 as there is in " I don't know," with a 
 witness of this description; for which 
 ever way he gives the answer, his 
 veracity is equally questionable. If a 
 witness is speaking the truth, his an- 
 swers in the first examination wi41 be 
 the same as those which he gives in the 
 second. Observe the application of 
 this remark in the conduct of Majochi. 
 When he is first examined respecting 
 Mr. Hughes, the banker's clerk, at 
 Gloucester, he knows nothing of his 
 being a banker's clerk ; but when he 
 sees, on the second examination, that I 
 have got hold of a letter, of which we 
 knew nothing on the first, and which 
 he, pirhaps, thought was not in exist 
 ence, or which probably he had for 
 gotten, inamoment, and before I asked 
 him a single question about it, your 
 lordships plainly saw by his tone and 
 manner, that he had never forgotten at 
 any time that Mr. Hughes was a ban- 
 ker's clerk ; for he confessed that he 
 was in the habitof calling him Brother 
 Banker. *' But that," says he, " was a 
 joke between us, on account of the fa- 
 miliarity which subsisted between us.' 
 ^Familiarity then makes him forget the 
 business of his friend — he forgets the 
 occupation of his familiar, for the rea- 
 son which ought to make him most ac- 
 qiiaintcd with it, namely, because he 
 was in the habit of calling him Brother 
 
 Banker. This certainly is a singular 
 mode of accounting for his ignorance 
 upon the subject. When interrogated 
 about his having made a proposal of 
 marriage to a certain pi rson, your 
 lordships will recollect the manner in 
 which he attempted to laugh off the 
 matter. With what sucress I leave 
 your lordships to judjje. He was'not 
 williRg to recollect either the name of 
 the lady or the circumstance, until he 
 found out that we were in full posses- 
 sion of all the particulars. But before 
 we have done with Majochi, I have 
 to mention other instances of the 
 inconsistency of that extraordinary 
 witness — the most valuable, the most 
 important, the most respectable, that 
 has been presented to your lordships. 
 Of the truth of these imputed quali- _ 
 tics, I leave your lordship to decide 
 from your recollection. Your lord- 
 ships cannot but recollect, the shuf- 
 fling, fencing, prevaricating way in 
 which he answered the questions put 
 to him with respect to the receipt 
 of money from Lord Stewart. He 
 swore twice that he never received 
 any money at Vienna. Then came an 
 attempt to explain the matter, know- 
 ing that we could not be deceived, by 
 the evasion of his first answers. He 
 says," I remember to have received no 
 money at Vienna, but I remember to 
 have received seventy-eight piastres 
 when 1 arrived at Milan, but 1 don't 
 know whether it was more or less. 
 " Non mi ricordo," the usual answer 
 which fell from him when it was not 
 convenient to speak with accuracy. 
 Now I had a pretty good guess as to 
 the sort of evidence which laid the 
 foundation of that favour with which 
 our cabinet miniiters received the 
 testimony of. this witness, and which 
 formed the foundation of the Attorney- 
 General's instructions. Your lordships 
 cannot but have observed that the At- 
 torney-General, in his exatninution of 
 this witness, calculated a great deal 
 upon what he had slated at first to his 
 Majesty's ministers, and that his in- 
 structions were founded entirely upon 
 that statement, never doubting that the 
 witness would adlrere to his first story ; 
 and your lordships will judge of the 
 fidelity of the instructions by the nian- 
 ner in which the questions were put. 
 I need hardly remind your lordships of 
 one remarkable failure in the evidence 
 of Majochi, as given at your lordship's 
 bar, and that which he may rcasonabiy 
 
198 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 be supposed to have given oaa former 
 occasion . The Attorney-General, from 
 his insUiictions, stated that he should 
 he able to prove that tlie Priucess and 
 Bcrgami were heard kissing each other 
 in tlie room of the latter. This was 
 the Attoriicy-Getural's in.nrisctions, 
 but the vvittess refused to swear to the 
 fact. On the contrary, he said, that 
 all he hemd was whispering. Bat I 
 >vill remind your lordships of one or 
 two otlier instances in which the Attor- 
 ney-Gencrafs statement totally failtd 
 upon the evidence of this witness, 
 when examined at your lordships' bar. 
 They are certainly not so material; 
 but, when coupled wish other circum- 
 stance-, tiiey are of ianpartance to shew 
 wljat ill tie reliance can be placed upon 
 ithe evidence of such a witness, and 
 farther, to shew that the Atforney-Ge- 
 iieral's instructions nnist be* founded 
 upon the interested and false represent- 
 ation of a man whose memory totally 
 fails lip r.n matters which must have 
 been created by his own invention. 
 The manner in which my learned friend 
 put iiis questions, shews liow frail and 
 tender he felt the ground to be on 
 .whicii he stood; and the answers he' 
 received proved to demonstration, that 
 the story he was instructed to state 
 was not true. Your' lordships could 
 not but have observed the manner in 
 V, hich niy learned friend was staggered 
 %vl>en he did not receive the answers 
 he expected to receive, and which were 
 no doubt put down in his instructions 
 as evidence to. which the witness had 
 previously deposed. The repetition of 
 ids questions accompani?;d by leading 
 liiHts and prompting suggestions, evin- 
 ced his anxiety to refresh the memory 
 of Ihe witness upon points which he 
 bad before sv^orn to, and which now, 
 being the invention of his own brain, 
 he had completely forgotten. This 
 circumstance leads me to this remark, 
 the truth of which is perfectly obvious, 
 namely, that a witness will probably* 
 recollect a part if not the whole of 
 what is true, but will totally forget that 
 which he has himself invented. He is 
 much more likely to forget the fruit of 
 invention than those facts founded in 
 truth. Where a story is partly com- 
 posed of truth, and the remainder of 
 falsehood, however quick his inven- 
 tion, or retentive his memory, the wit- 
 ness will scarcely fail to forget v/hat he 
 has before stated in the way of fiction. 
 The memory is much' more retentive 
 
 of real facts, tiran it is of scenes wiiicU 
 have been invented and imagined. 
 Thtrs it is necessary that liars should 
 have uncommon good memories, and 
 hei.e it arises that Majochi has sd 
 mucii departed from his original story. 
 I will rei\'r your lordships to an in- 
 stance, to shew wlserein it became 
 necessary to tax this man's memory in 
 a manner sonuwhat singular, npon a 
 part of Iiis story, which he had proba- 
 bly before n lated as truth. He was 
 asked by the Solicitor-General, whe- 
 ther, while he was in Augusta or Cata- 
 nia, he did not carry Berirami some 
 broth while he was in bed? His answer 
 was, that he often did so. He was then 
 asked whether, after the Princess en- 
 tered Bergarai's bed-room, he did not 
 h* ar any conversation. That itself in 
 any ordinary court of justice, • ould be 
 considered a tolerably leading ques- 
 tion. The answer to the question so 
 put was in the negative. It was then 
 followed up by " Did you hear any 
 conversation or any thing else?" This 
 was obviously a hint for the man's re- 
 collection upon something which had 
 been before taken do^\n as a part of 
 his story. Can any of your lordships 
 doubt, that this had reference to some- 
 thing else which the man had said be- 
 fore? If it was true why did he not 
 recollect it at once, and give a prompt 
 answer? It was obviously not true, 
 because if it had happened it would 
 have immediately occurred to his recol- 
 lection. My learned friend therefore, 
 in order to give his memory every pos- 
 sible chance, asked him this sweeping 
 question : "Do you recollect any con- 
 versation or any thing else passing on 
 that occasion?'' The answer is, "Only 
 some whispering.'' Does any of your 
 lordships suppose, from the manner in 
 which this question was put, that the 
 Solicitor-General expected such an 
 ansv/or ? Did he not look for something 
 more than whispering ? I have already- 
 said that tlie Attorney General opened 
 the fact of kissing. It is quite mani- 
 fest, therefore, that the Solicitor -Gene- 
 ral, by the manner of putting his ques- 
 tion did not expect to receive such an 
 answer as was given. Whispering 
 alone would not- answer the purpose, 
 and then the Solicitor-General repeats 
 the question in another shape. " Did 
 any thing pass between them at 
 any other time?" obviously leading the 
 witness to the recollection of some- 
 thing to which he had before sworu. 
 
MR. BROUGITA.VI, 
 
 199 
 
 The question so rcpeatctl roccivcfl ti»o. 
 same answer, " Nothiu;^ i)at wliispei- 
 iug." I will montion anotlier iustauce 
 among many of the same sort, and I 
 have to apolo^i/e to your lordships for 
 detaining yon so long npon ,=nch a 
 topic, becanse J am persuaded that 
 none of these circumstances co»Id have 
 escaped yonr lordships own notice and 
 animadversion. It seems there was a 
 story told of something that had oc- 
 cnrred at Genoa about riding an ass. 
 No person can douiit that in this man's 
 former exam ijiation he had stated some- 
 thing npon s'lch a si',!)ject, as to which 
 his memoty now totally failed from the 
 cause I have al eady suggested, namely, 
 because it had never happened. I en- 
 treat your lordships to observe the 
 course my learned friend pursues. The 
 witness is asked, *' Ditl you make any 
 observation when her IMajesty was 
 riding on the ass ?"' Every body must 
 hiive expected that the man would 
 have reliUcd >omet!iing remarka!>ie, 
 but n)y leanied friend wa> greatly dis- 
 appointed in receiving an answer in 
 the negative. He is then asked, 
 " V/hat passed ?'' His an.^wer is '* He 
 held her." "What else?" " He held 
 her to keep her from falling." There 
 was surely nothing indecent in that. 
 '* He held her lest lier Royal Higlmess 
 should fall." The Solicitor-General 
 however not satistied with that, and 
 having Something in his hand which he 
 knew contaijjed what had been said by 
 the witness before, repeated the ques- 
 tion still more pointedly ; but the ques- 
 tion still failed of its object, and my 
 learned friend found that it was the 
 most difficult thing to make a false 
 swearer recol'ect that part of his state- 
 ment which was founded in notion, and 
 contained no two facts upon which his 
 recoUectioti could hinge. Nothing can 
 be -more easy than to make a true man 
 recollect facfs which have been really 
 within his knowledge; but the contrary 
 is the case where a false swearer has 
 /iothing to found his statement npon 
 bu?^ fiction. There are a number of 
 olfier circumr,tai!ces in this man's exa- 
 mination, which justify fl.ose rciv»rks. 
 He was asked, in pursuance of the 
 same instrnctions, about yome break- 
 fast that had tal.cn place at a <onvcnt — 
 a circumstance which was fairly the 
 work of in mention, or it is quite obvious 
 that he would have restated the fact. 
 Tliere is this difference between a false 
 and a trne witness ; that the one involves 
 
 himself in Jhe greatest difnculties and 
 intiicacles, and is totaby inconsistent 
 in all his staten-.ents; whereas the 
 other, in the relation of hU story, is 
 pertinent, correct, and uniform. I 
 nuist remind your lord>hips of one 
 singular ciicun>stance in tlie course of 
 t?.l's man's story respecting the free- 
 dom of access thiit existed between 
 Bergami's room and that of the I'rin- 
 cess. After repeated prevarications, 
 much equivocal swearing, and several 
 positive denials, he was at length con- 
 strain?d to admit, on his croNS-exanii- 
 nation, a state of circumstances which 
 completely defeated the w hole object 
 of his statement as to tlie easiness of 
 access to Bergami's room as the scene 
 of a criminal intercourse. From this 
 disclosure of circumstances it would 
 appear, that if the Princess had availed 
 herself of this medium of access, she 
 must have exposed herself to muck 
 more observation than she need have 
 done, because she must have preferred 
 going to the apartment where Bergami 
 slept, through a room, small in dimen- 
 sions, and where there was a fire burn- 
 ing, to give light to whatever occurred 
 in the apartment, so as thereby to 
 Kiakc^ her detection sure, without any 
 probability of escapir:g observation. 
 Can anything be more monstrous or 
 absurd thaii the story this man has 
 told ? He would have your lordships 
 believ%, that the Princess in her pas- 
 sage through her r^oni to the apart- •- 
 ment of Bergami, stopped, went up to 
 his bed, and looked id his face, in order 
 to ascertain whether he was asleep. 
 Can there be any thing more improba- 
 ble than the v.iiole of this story?' It is 
 confessed that the Princess might have 
 gone from her own room to that of 
 Bergami's without going through that 
 of rvlajoc'ii's; why then should she not 
 have preferred going through her own 
 apartment, where she was perfectly 
 free from ail observation, to going 
 through the chaihber of this man ia 
 the way he bus descrii)ed, with the in- 
 evita!>lecertainty of being exposed to ' 
 remark, at a time when a tire was 
 burning in the room, and this too, 
 from a person who had recently en- 
 tered lier service, and of whom fhe 
 knew nothing. The whole of this 
 story savotjrs of absolute improbability 
 and absurdity; but the fact to which 
 he has sworn, of her going up to his 
 bedside and looking in his fare, Ptill 
 J more clearly proves the monstrous 
 
200 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 falsehood df the stateinent. This, in- 
 deed, might be a very likely circum- 
 stance to have occurred in the detail of a 
 robber's story, or in the conduct of a 
 person who meditated a midnight rob- 
 bery. I w ill not szvy with what aptitude 
 such a circumstance might have oc- 
 curred to the mind of this man, or to 
 persons who are adepts in tlie mysteries 
 of such transactions. Nor will I ad- 
 vert to the prohal)ility of a person en- 
 tering a house at night, for the purpose 
 of lohbery, and going to the bed-side 
 of a lady, in order to see whether she 
 was fast asleep. This would be all 
 very natural in the robbery of a house, 
 and would be perfectly consistent in 
 the conduct of a thief, who, if he found 
 the lady asleep, would be satisfied that 
 she could give no alarm so as to pre- 
 vent his proceeding ; but for a person 
 going to commit adultery, whose face 
 is well known to the person he sees; 
 that person known to be his mistress, 
 and, above all, the Princess of Wales — 
 for that person to go up to him and 
 look in his face without any motive, 
 or any probable cause, and at the im- 
 minent peril of exposing her conduct 
 trad character, is the most ilnaccount- 
 able and silly invention that ever oc- 
 curred to the mind of man; and it 
 shews, what has happened to this case, 
 that the improbability of the stery 
 proves its own falsity. Before I finish 
 the observations I have to make on 
 this man's story, I would farther re- 
 inai:k upon bis statement as to the time 
 when Bergami began to dine with the 
 Princess at Genoa. In this respect 
 he appears to have completely falsified 
 himself, because it was quite notorious 
 that Bergami never dined with her 
 Majesty until months after she went 
 to Genoa. There are other particulars 
 in his evidence of the same descrip- 
 tion, upon which, however, I do not 
 think it at present necessary to dwell. 
 I prefer calling your lordships atten- 
 tion rather to that part of my state- 
 ment which refers to transactions of a 
 later date- . Your lordships will recol- 
 lect that part ef his evidence which 
 related to the circumstances of his 
 quitting the Princess's s.ervice. No 
 man who heard that part of his evi- 
 dence, can doubt that he was guilty of 
 a gross and deliberate falsehood — and 
 if he is not to be believed upon so im- 
 portant a part of Ivis evidence, I think 
 that dispenses with the necessity of 
 proving, that, in every tittle of the 
 
 rest of his evidence, he is steeped iii 
 perjury. It was material for him, in his 
 opinion, in order to entitle him to credit, 
 that he should raise his character to the 
 highest estimation, and, in doing this,he 
 flourished about the cause of his quitting 
 his situation. He said he did not like 
 the bad people by whom the Princess 
 was surrounded — an assertion which 
 he made, for the purpose, first, of 
 raising his own character, and then of 
 debasing the society amongst whom 
 the Princess moved. But that asser- 
 tion turned out to be false, and I will 
 shew your lordships his falsehood from 
 his own conduct ; for when he was 
 questioned whether he did not ask to 
 get back again into the Princess's ser- 
 vice, his answer was, " I don't recol- 
 lect." Thus sheltering himself under 
 the affectation of an infirmity of me- 
 mory, rather than giving a decided ne- 
 gative to the question, because he was 
 afraid he might have made such a re- 
 quest ; and that if he did, we might 
 produce to whom he made the appli- 
 cation. But what is the next ques- 
 tion? " Did you not apply to Schia- 
 vinii"" — *' I did." So that he corrects 
 himself at once. An honest man might 
 not have immediately recollected a 
 circumstance which occurred him, but 
 after being told it might be brought to 
 his memory. But would such a man 
 conduct himself in the manner in which 
 this witness has done? First, he pre- 
 tends want of memory ; and then, upon 
 being asked the question more point- 
 edly, he does not simply say, " I do 
 recollect," but instantly afterwards he 
 enters into a minute detail of all the 
 circumstances connected with the 
 transaction, shewing that at that very 
 moment the particulars of which he 
 affected ignorance were strong and 
 perfect in his recollection. A flood of 
 information comes from him, and he 
 not only gives us a simple affirmative^, 
 but he tells us all he said to Schiavini. 
 His conduct in this respect is most 
 material for your lordships' observa- 
 tion. He says, " O yes," and with an 
 affectation of pleasantry he says, " Oh 
 yes! Oyes! I made the application, 
 but it was in a sort of joke— ju^t as a 
 person applies in a joke for anything." 
 That may be so — it is possible — but if 
 it was in joke, it is a joke which shews 
 that he is a perjured witness. There 
 is no way for him to get out of it. If 
 it was a joke, he was perjured, and if 
 he answered directly in the negative, 
 
MR. BROUGHABf. 
 
 !^01 
 
 lie \Tas equally perjured. Then he is 
 asked, ** Did you not make several 
 other applieations to another person, 
 named Hieronymons ?" These could 
 not be all jokes — he could not have 
 joked several times upon the same 
 subject. His applications to Hicro- 
 nymous could not be all jocular. What 
 is his answer? All at once he says, 
 " Non mi ricordo." Now I say, that 
 in every instance where this answer is 
 given, he is guilty of gross, wilful, and 
 corrupt perjury. Can any man believe 
 him in his lirst assertion when he says, 
 that he left the Queen's service from 
 the horror ofthe people who surrounded 
 her ; and in the next ])lace, can he 
 be believed when he says, that when 
 he made the application to Schiavini 
 lie was only in joke. Which ever way 
 his answer is taken, there is no way 
 for him to get out ofthe imputation of 
 wilful perjury. This answer to the 
 question whether he made application 
 to Hieronymons, proves him to be 
 guilty of falsehood — falsehood, because 
 if he were an honest man he could not 
 have given such an answer. But your 
 lordships will recollect the way in 
 which he told us he had made the ap- 
 plication to Schiavini. It was doqe 
 with some flourish and figure. He said 
 with a tone of indignation " I had 
 rather eat the grass of the field than 
 go back to the Queen's service." Is 
 that the language of a true or a false 
 man ? After he had made the applica- 
 tion he had confessed to have made to 
 Schiavini, can it be doubted that this 
 was a false pretence, and is his perjury 
 the less apparent, when he will not 
 venture to swear that he did not make 
 other applications to get back to the 
 same place. I say, then, tiiat he has 
 disqualified the whole of his testimony 
 by his answer of " Non mi ricordo," 
 an expression to which he has univer- 
 sally resorted for the purpose of shel- 
 tering his falsehood, and suiting the 
 purpose he has in view. Placed in 
 this position, he is guilty of perjury in 
 one way or the other, and I care not 
 in which. Now I wish to call your 
 lordships' attention to the next wit- 
 nesses for a moment, and it shall only 
 be for a moment, for I have already in 
 part observed upon the evidence of the 
 persons to whom I allude. I moan the 
 Captain and Mate of the polacca. 
 There is something in the demeanour 
 df these witnessea which is much more 
 
 26 
 
 consonant to pertness than to candour, 
 when ihcy answered the question* 
 put to them. They pretended to be 
 extremely angry in having it supposed 
 that they were not telling the truth. 
 They give flippant and impertinent 
 answers to some of the questions ad- 
 ministered. For instance, the mate 
 was asked whether the guns were on 
 deck, and he answered " to be sure — 
 they were not in our pockets''— and 
 wc are told that this was a respectable 
 vvitne?s, whose demeanour did him 
 great honour and credit — that he was 
 a witness of infinite importance — of so 
 much importance indeed that my 
 learned friends split him into two ; for 
 ofthe five witnesses that we were pro- 
 mised from the polacca, only four 
 were produced. Being asked whether 
 he came from Messina in a carriage, 
 he very smartly answered, " You do 
 not suppose we came on foot." I cer- 
 tainly Mas somewhat surprised at my 
 learned friend'a compliment upon the 
 respectable demeanour of this witness. 
 But be it so — be it respectable, I will 
 go into the substance of his evidenced 
 In the first place, I will venture to say, 
 that a better paid witness — a better 
 paid Italian, for work and labour 
 done, than this man never came within 
 my knowledge. He told your lord- 
 lordships that he was staying here at 
 the rate of £2,000 sterling a-year. 
 He was the mate of a trading vessel in 
 the Mediterranean. He is now, it 
 seems, the fourth part owner of the 
 vessel in which he served ; so that, in 
 fact, according to this proportion, his 
 residence here is not accounted for as 
 a matter of compensation, but as re- 
 ward. According to his calculation 
 the vessel must earn £8000 a-year, 
 which in Italy, reference being had to 
 the value of money in that country, 
 would be adequate to £16,000, or 
 £20,000 a-year in this. VVMiy, I ven- 
 ture to say that there is not a single 
 .^hip-owner in Messina, who makes 
 half the money by all tiie ships that 
 he is enabled to employ in trade. 
 I mean to say, that that is impossible 
 from the nature and state of that 
 country. A man with four hundred 
 pounds a-year there, is considered 
 in the greatest affluence ; and there 
 arc none who have £ 1500 a-year, ex- 
 cept the great noblesse, who have 
 large landed property. Will it thea 
 be believed that this man's miserable 
 
202 
 
 DKFENCE OP THE QUEEN. 
 
 polacca could tarn £8,i)()0 a-ycar r 
 Wliy, the uajncp oftiiese persons nould 
 liaye resounded over Italy as bein^ 
 the richest men on the earth ; and 
 there is not a person going from this 
 country to that, who would not have 
 tried to obtain a letter of reconi- 
 niendation to them. Why the fact is, 
 they are paltry shippers, whose names 
 are scarotly known in the street in 
 which they reside. The cohhier who 
 wrote a history is bettei known, and 
 yet we are told that this man's miser- 
 able n)ve>tmciit in a wrelched polacca 
 is worth £jrOO') a-year, which in his 
 count J y is nearly equal to £ 12,000. i)» 
 this. This obscure individual is paid 
 in this enormous proportion for his 
 supposed las>. Hut he does uot merely 
 receive his £-2000, but he is also 
 lodged and maintained free of ex- 
 pence. It will, however, be recol- 
 lected, that this payment cannot be 
 considered as any remuneration for 
 the loss of any property he had sus- 
 tained. It is said, indeed, that this is 
 compensation for the loss of his profits. 
 Be it observed that the ship is not 
 here. Her presence is not necessary 
 to his attendance. She is at sea with 
 her people on board earnini; freight in 
 tfee Mediterranean. I deny then that 
 this is the nature of u compensatijai 
 for loss. It is in fact reward for liis 
 evidence in this case. Tiic sajue ob- 
 servations and arguments appiy to the 
 Captain. And I shall not go through 
 them in this stiige of the proceedings. 
 But your lordships wiil recvillect, that 
 there was in this case a quarrel be- 
 tween the Captain and Bergami. He 
 tells you, with some naive'e^ that he 
 had to support himself and tuenty-two 
 n'.en during the time he was in the 
 C^kueeHS service, and that he had re- 
 c«?ivcd but one fourth part of what 
 he was entitled to as a compiensation 
 for his trouble. You see, therefore, 
 that he has an additional motive for 
 coming forward to swear against his 
 ancient friend. But your lordships 
 ■will recollect what he said with re- 
 ference to his employment by persons 
 of rank and distinction. He told your 
 lordships, that when he was in the 
 service of royal persons, he looked 
 more to the uncertainty than to the 
 certainty of reward : a proposition 
 tiiat involves a great trulh, a tiuth 
 which may be he^re understood in a 
 very Interesting p >int of view; and as 
 it respects hiuue.f, shewb mobt ckaiiy 
 
 that he looks to somcth'nj; beyond hit 
 stipulated agreement for the service* 
 ho is to perform. It is true ho has 
 agreed for a stipulated sum ; but, ac- 
 cording to his own understanding of 
 the dignity of his employment he ex- 
 pects some additional < onipensation to 
 that for which he has agreed. Then 
 I only stop for a mon.ent to rtmind 
 your lordships that, according to this, 
 [\\3 expectations are not liiuited to \\\&- 
 annuity of £'i,400 for the supposed- 
 loss of the profits of his shij), but he 
 l(;ok8 to something for coming for- 
 ward to swear in behalf of his royal 
 employ* r. He will naturally say, if 
 while I was em})loyed in the service 
 of royally, and the royal consort gives 
 me so iiiuch wiih an understand n;* as 
 to thu ui;ccrtainty of the amount of 
 rcnuineraiion, how much more am I 
 entitled to receive frtnu her illustrious 
 husband, in whose ser\ice I am now 
 retained. I am certain of receiving 
 £•2,400 ; and if I go through this busi- 
 ness well — if 1 am nselul to my em- 
 ployer — if I make out liis ca>e — if the 
 case comes right throu. ■, and no ac- 
 cident happens, I shail get what will 
 make a joke of lite £^2,400 for my 
 share of the skipper employed in the 
 Medilei ranean. But this js not all 
 respecting money matters. I men- 
 tioned tlie inducement of reward^ but 
 there is another inducen ent. Has lie 
 no spite tograify? His testimony is 
 bottomed ni revenge. I have a right; 
 to say that, tor he hat! a quaiel,as he 
 himself distinctly slated, with lier- 
 gami, whose business it was to pay 
 him this money for the use of his ves- 
 sel, and he complained to his own 
 ambassador that Bergami kept £l300 
 from him, which he ou;iht to have 
 been paid. As socm as he made the 
 complaint, he desired it to be for- 
 wardtd to the English government, 
 and it is in this way he became known 
 to his Majesty s juinisters. The only 
 knowledge which the prosecutor has 
 of this witness, is that which lie him- 
 self states, that he made a complaint 
 against the Queen and her Chamber- 
 lain for not having paid him £l300, 
 and he adds, that he is now come to 
 London to see afier this money ; and 
 I warrant you his mtioduclion to the 
 minister is not, the less agirecable from 
 findinjr that his evidence v\ ill be use- 
 ful to his employees. There are other 
 matters in this mate's evidence, whicU 
 djserve the attention of y.ur lorU* 
 
MR. BROUnnAM. 
 
 203 
 
 sliip?. I tbink a Princess of Wales, 
 1)11 hoard a vtssel, sitliug upon a ^i\n, 
 v?ifli Iter arms interwoven wllli those 
 of a person aeting in eapacity of sfv- 
 vant to licr, and in the act of kissinj; 
 licr, is not a circMuistance of such or- 
 dinary occurrence^ as to make it very 
 likely that the captain and mate would 
 forfiet th«« most iniportaut particulars 
 of it. The fact, however, is, that they 
 bolli difVt r n»ast materially from each 
 other in their history of the transac- 
 lion. The mate says, that the Queen 
 wa^ sitting upon a gun wiih IJergami, 
 and tluy were supporting one another. 
 In the same page of the evidence lie 
 afterwards says that they were sitting, 
 not on any gun, but near the mast, and 
 >>he on his knee. Now the sitting 
 iipon tlie gun and near the mast makes 
 this a matter of importance ; for this 
 reason, for as the mate says they were 
 fitting near the mast, he considers it 
 a Gir;;«mstance worthy of notice, and 
 mentions it ?s a remarkable tact; and 
 it was one which he need not have 
 particularly dwelt upon. He accord- 
 ingly say^, lltat the Queen was upon 
 liergatnis knees, not on a i:un, but 
 near a mast, and lie does not say one 
 word about kissing. He forgets that 
 most important part of the old t<tory, 
 for vvliich reason I trust your lordslnps 
 \viil agree with me in thinking tliat it 
 did not in fact happen, and it could 
 not have happened for this further 
 reason, the captain swears differently. 
 He says she was sitting on Bergami's 
 knees upon the gun, and not near the 
 mast, and in that position they were 
 kissing. But then do tliey speak of 
 the same time? Yes; for he says, im- 
 mediat'dy that the mate saw the trans- 
 action as well ^s himself. The mate 
 says he never saw it; he won't swear 
 that he saw it, and yet the captain saw 
 it. When e\amini*d separately, how- 
 ever, tliey totally diti'er from each 
 other. It is quite obvious, therefore, 
 that that story cannot be true. Novv 
 x\hat think you of his desiring your 
 ],ord^l)ips -to believe, that he was so 
 ofraid of the morals of his mate being 
 contanjinated, that he desired him to 
 go to another part of the ship. Poor 
 yotJth ! Educated in that primitive an- 
 cient gar«len of Eden, before the fall 
 of Naples and Messina : when the 
 captain saw Bergami leaning over — 
 not touching the Princess — nothing 
 indecorous going forward — nothing 
 improper — nothinjj even light, but 
 
 merely leaning towards her, he was so 
 shocked, that he innnediately desired 
 his mate to go away about his busi- 
 ness — his mate, who it appears was 
 under his special care in a moral point 
 of view by virtue of that relation ! It 
 was true indeed that he was a distant 
 relative, and, tliercfore, by the ties of 
 blood, he felt that his conscience wa* 
 responsible; for the purity of the moral* 
 of his relative, and, therefore, lest 
 they should be in any danger for a 
 inouient, he desired him to go to an- 
 other part of the ship where purer, 
 company was to be found. There are 
 people who believe all this, and who 
 think it is very probable. Observe, 
 that he never says the Queen desired 
 him to go away, and that Imj never re- 
 ceived any order from Bergami on the 
 subject. But the virtuous captain, 
 educated in the modern Mediterranean, 
 so far superior to the ancient sea of 
 that name, will not allow this mate, 
 this relation of his, to remain near a 
 scene so injurious to his morals. There 
 may be, I say, those who believe this. 
 I cannot answer for pex)ple's belief, 
 but this I am sure of, that those who 
 Ixtlieve the mate's evidence, cannot 
 possibly belit v<=! that the captain has 
 spoken that which is true. There is 
 no way out of this difficulty, for they 
 cannot both have told the truth. If 
 the mate is believed, you are driven 
 to tliis neecssary conclusion, that the 
 captain, according to his own cliarac- 
 ter, cannot have told you a gratuitous 
 falsehood, because it is quite obvious 
 that he meant to earn his money, and 
 therefore it cannot be said that his 
 falsehood is gratuitous. The whole of 
 his evidence tends to shew that he is 
 determined to lay the foundation, not 
 merely for the cJaini of compensation, 
 but for the additional uncertain re- 
 ward which he expects when he deals 
 with royalty. He is to have a certain 
 simi by agreement^ — he expects, be- 
 side the ^1300, which he has come to 
 seek, and according to Ids own rule he 
 expects something Cm- extraordinary 
 services. Now one more observation 
 upon the testinuuiy of these two per- 
 sons. You see how well drilled they 
 are. Indeed, so much so, that I hold 
 ihem up as perfecj;' models for those 
 who practise that', art in which they 
 seem to excel. They are truly high 
 finished specimens of what witnesses 
 should be in a case of this description. 
 Whatever their character may be. 
 
g04 
 
 DtFKNCE OF THE QU^EN. 
 
 they arc certainly tho best of the 
 troop ill that maj^azine of test money, 
 so near at hand ; and it seems that 
 their value is to be estimated in pro- 
 portion to the amount of their pecu- 
 niary expectations, for the greater 
 tlieir demands the more their worth is 
 valued ; but happily there are bounds 
 and limits even to their expectations, 
 for otherwise God pity the innocent 
 wtio are exposed to the effects of such 
 evidence. They appear to be lineal 
 descendants of the doctors of old. 
 They would have yon believe that they 
 are the most innocent and pure in 
 their motives, and that tliey had no 
 other cause to serve than that of truth 
 and justice. We have it, however, in 
 proof, that they have lived together — 
 supping, breakfasting, and sleeping 
 in the same room ; but yet they would 
 persuade your lordships that they have 
 BO intimacy or connection with each 
 other, thoui^h professionally united as 
 master and mate, and connected by 
 ties of kindred. Your lordships will 
 recollect the tone and manner of the 
 gallant captain, when he was asked 
 whether he had communicated with 
 his mate or spoken to him upon the 
 subject of the evidence he had given, 
 touching this inquiry, " I am not a 
 Biau, savs he, to speak upon such a 
 Subject." " What subject r" for I had 
 a mind to know what he meant. He 
 answered, *' I am not a man, to speak 
 on this subject out of court. It would 
 not be decent. It would not be fit- 
 ting that I should ever say out of 
 doers, a word of what I say in this 
 House." " Did you speak to your mate 
 npon the subject ?" " Never. Never. 
 It was agreed that we should never 
 speak on this subject," for so he an- 
 swered my learned friend Mr. Willi- 
 ams, who sifted his evidence in his 
 able cross-examination. *' Did you not 
 state that you had agreed never to 
 mention to your mate what you stated 
 in evidence?" "Yes, certainly, be- 
 cause it is very improper for any per- 
 son to state out of doors what they 
 have said in court.'' This brings me 
 to what is a feature in the characteris- 
 tic purity of the evidence which has 
 been adduced. In the violation of good 
 taste ; in the offence offered to public 
 morals by this ill-omened proceeding, 
 it ought to be some comfort to us tliat 
 Mjfcere is at least one little spot in this 
 land, secured from the contamination 
 which spreads the country, alarming 
 
 every good man for the morals of the 
 community, and that little spot is no 
 more nor less than Cotton Garden, in 
 the vicinity of this hou.«e. When the 
 whole island is saturated with the in- 
 decencies which have come forth from 
 the green bag, it is a matter of great 
 consolation that in Cotton Garden, the 
 most strictly modest matron, the purest 
 virgin, need be under no ^larm that 
 her countenance will be suflfused with 
 a blush ; for, it seems, that among the 
 very agents of this plot — amongst those 
 who have made the country echo with 
 the indecencies and abominations of 
 their evidence, there is not one whis- 
 per stirring about those falsehoods, to 
 which they are brought here to depose. 
 So the master would have you believe, 
 in his anxiety to raise his character, 
 and bespeak your lordships' good 
 opinion. 
 
 My lords, the course of these obser- 
 vations has now brought me to person- 
 ages of still greater importance in this 
 case than either the captain or his 
 mate, although the Solicitor-Gerjeral 
 stated them to be witnesses of no infi- 
 nite importance. I mean Duraont and 
 Sacchi. I trust I shall be excused 
 from coupling these individuals toge-* 
 ther — viheu it is recollected how much 
 thej' resemble each other in all the ma- 
 terial particulars of their history, as 
 they arc connected with this case. 
 Both were living under the roof of the 
 Queen, enjoying her bounty — both 
 were dismissed — both wished to he 
 taken back — and both were most un- 
 willing to leave. Connected together 
 by the same ties, livisg together in 
 great intimacy, inhabiting the same ro- 
 mantic mountains of Switzerland, and, 
 after their arrival in this country, still 
 maintaining the same unshaken friend- 
 ship — alike assiduous in the pursuit of 
 literature, and equally ardent in their 
 studies to attain a knowledge of the 
 English language. Both possessed of 
 that knoM'ledge, and yet both prefcr- 
 ing the aid of an interpreter in giving 
 their evidencc^ — in fact, both resen.- 
 bling each other in so many points, that 
 it was difficult to find in what they 
 differed, a resemblance that must strike 
 their lordships' minds most forciby in 
 the course of the observations which it 
 will be my duty to make. I am anxi- 
 ous, however, to remind your lordships 
 of what sort of person Dumontliac des- 
 cribed herself to be. It signifies very 
 littfe what we shall by our evidence 
 
MR. BROUGHAM. 
 
 205 
 
 sliew hci^to be, and I would rather take 
 lior account of herself. She is a per- 
 son of tlie most romantic disposition by 
 nature — and this she had improved by 
 prncticc with the world. She is an 
 enemy of marriage, as she says in her 
 letters. Sfie dot-s not like man, unless 
 in the abstract — ^'•Potius arnica onmi- 
 lus fjuum inaaisica" but she is the true 
 friend of one man — of Sacchi, whom 
 she describes as an Italian gentleman ; 
 but he, ungrateful man, would not 
 return the comj)liment by acknowledg- 
 iuijf her to be a counte»s (laughter). 
 *' Marriage,'' she said, " she did not 
 Hke — she loved liberty, '' the mouiifain 
 nymph, sweet liberty," — and in pursuit 
 of her among her native hills their lortf 
 ships would not fail to see into what 
 company she had fallen. "Were these 
 tp be recivoned among the accomplish, 
 nients of this lady? By no means : she 
 was the most peifect specimen, the 
 most finished model of a waiting-maid 
 the world had ever seen: none of her 
 own writers, and none of ours, whom, 
 no doubt, she h;id studied, had ii^iven 
 such a pattern for imitation ; Moliere, 
 Le Sage, Contireve, and Cibber, had 
 all fallen far short of this admirable 
 ori«;inal ; I do not mean that all her qua- 
 lifications have been developed at 
 once: some of them have gradually 
 made their appearance under the cross- 
 examination of Mr. AVilliams, when she 
 showed that her education had done 
 honor to her natural abilities; she 
 showed that she was gifted with great 
 circumspection, that she possessed much 
 readiness in adjusting one pait of her 
 evidence with another, and great skill, 
 iji' the eternal laws of truth allowed it, 
 in blinding and deluding her hearers. 
 She evinced not a little readiness in 
 reconciliwg the story she had told with 
 the contents of the letters produced, 
 which letters she had not forgotleu, 
 though she did not know now that they 
 were still in existence to be prodticed 
 against her. Had she been aware of 
 their preservation, and had her patrons 
 known their contents, their lordships 
 would never have heard of her: she 
 would never have been produced as a 
 witness, but wotdd have been shipped 
 off as many others had been, like so 
 nnich fresh meat or live lumber for 
 their native country. Hut her constant 
 niode was to deal in double ent'jnffres;H2ic- 
 chi did the same ; so tli^t it was impos- 
 sible to know what they really meant ; 
 to them indeed might be applied what 
 
 formerly had been said of the Greeks 
 — " tribuo illis littera.s, do multarum 
 artium disciplinam, non adimo sermo- 
 uis leporcni, ingeniorum acumen, di- 
 cendi copiaim : denique etiam siqua 
 sibi alia sumunt, non repugno : testi- 
 moniornm religjpnem, et (idem nnn- 
 qnam ista natio coluit: totiusque hu- 
 ju^ce rei quie sit vis, qnoR auctoritusj 
 quod pondus, ignorant." I have heard, 
 with no small surprise, that the can- 
 dour of this lady is praised, that her 
 evidence has made, on th(; minds of 
 some persons, a strong impression, 
 merely because she admitted some facts' 
 rather injurious to her own character ; 
 because she acknowledged that she 
 was turned out of the Queen's service, 
 that she was sincere in some of the 
 praises bestowed upon her illustrious 
 mistress, but not in' all. 1 beg your 
 lordsiiips to attend to other parts of 
 her testimony. When asked, " Were 
 you in want of money?" The answer 
 was, " No.'' " When you wrote to your 
 sister did you say you were in want of 
 money? ' ''1 might have said so; but it was 
 not true." So that, in rernm natura, ac- 
 cording to her own account, there was 
 no difference at all in her mind be- 
 tween truth and falsehood. This being 
 the case, I feel no small degree of as- 
 tonishment at the piaise given to her 
 candour. I need not lell any one, un- 
 less, indeed, a person tit only to be 
 turned out ijito the field among thos-'c 
 animals who are often abused in using 
 them, that her ingenuousness in admit- • 
 ting that she sometimes spoke false- 
 hoods, was not to be taken as a certain 
 criterion of truth. Was thisso charm- 
 ing a blandishment, tl'.at it must at once 
 open a favouring and credu^pus ear to 
 ail the lies this amiable personage 
 might think proper to tell? Because 
 she was ingenuous in acknowledging 
 facts which could not be denied with- 
 out certain detection, without ruin to 
 her own hopt s, and the cause she was 
 brought to support, mustshe he addres- 
 sed in the language of confidence and 
 endearment? Oh! sweet and amiable 
 Swiss shepherdess, how caniclid> how 
 innocent yon are.— ^( A laugh I never 
 before knew any thing like citing as ft- 
 proof of credibility that candour which 
 confesses to falsehood and prevari- 
 cation, that candour which in fact 
 proves that a witness is not to be bei 
 iieved. As to her explanations it i». 
 impossible to admit them. Her douhU 
 inlendns do not fit. Her intention ia^ 
 
206 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QCEEN. 
 
 the letters is, from the letters them- 
 selves, quite iiitclJic;ihle. It is ren- 
 dered unintelligible hy talking her 
 ci}>hcr. It is donbtfiil only wljen she 
 t>e^'ii)s to envelope it in her own false- 
 hood and lies. A plain honest man, 
 solely -intent upon teiiinfj^ the truth, 
 never entangles himself in such a mi 
 serable web. He moves forward in 
 the evidence he has to give, exciting 
 no suspicion in his progress, but goes 
 powerfully oji to his object, tearing 
 through ail such fliuKsy impediments. 
 I trust your lordships will believe this 
 woman to have been sincere when she 
 praised her iliustrious benefactress, 
 tjiat she then spoke in the ( loquence 
 of feeling, in the ardour of gratitude, 
 in the sincerity of a heart not yet for- 
 getful of favours received, and that it 
 was only in consequence of her dis- 
 missal, ifi consequence of the refusal 
 to take her back, in cosjsequence of 
 the pron>iscs held out to her, tliat she 
 entered into this business, and joined 
 the band of the other conspirators who 
 were arrayed against her iliustrious 
 mistress. It would appear that she 
 was kindly and warmly attached to 
 her own sister, that she loved her sin- 
 cerely. She said that the principle on 
 which her conduct proceeded was 
 anxiety for the welfare of this sister. 
 I take her own account of the matter, 
 tlnough I do not believe it. She repre- 
 sents herself as affectionately attached 
 to her, and does every thing in her 
 power to procure her a place in the 
 service of the Queen, in that house, 
 which, if all or even half of what youi 
 lordships heard at this bar be tiue, 
 should be considered, as my honourable 
 friend, the Attorney-General, said, not 
 as a palace but a brothel. Her letters, 
 however, in. which she solicits a place 
 for her sister, were written after she 
 left this brothel, after she made appli- 
 cation to be restored to the service of 
 the Queen, and was refused. Can 
 these circumstances be believed in 
 connexion with each other ? Though 
 we muy account for her anxiety to con- 
 tinue one sister in the service and to 
 have another received into it, what ex- 
 planation can be given of her own ap- 
 plication ? They were poor ; she, ac- 
 cording to her account, was rich. She 
 had no occasion to go back. How is 
 this to be explained ? Must we say 
 that the prudent and frugal Swiss 
 chambermaid balanced against each 
 othw the profits and disgrace of the 
 
 situation, and that the former prepon- 
 derated in her mind ; that .sin; was wil- 
 ling to a( t upon the principle of that 
 Roman ICmpcror, who, so he raised a 
 tax, was nut over solicitous as to the 
 natuic of the material ? Hovevcr this 
 might be, whatever weie ihe motives 
 of this chaste and delicate shepherdess, 
 certain it is, that many months after 
 her di>missal, .she endeavoured to get 
 into the service of tiie Queen one 
 sister, who was only fifteen, and to 
 retain in it another sister of seventeen. 
 Such is her own accor.nt of the matter. 
 I do not after all believe she was so 
 bad, that she was so rrj^^ardless of her 
 sister's morals and welfare as to desire 
 they should fill a situation in the 
 Queen's house if she thought ii to be 
 the brothel described. I believe she 
 was sincere in her letters in her praises 
 of her illustrious benefactress, in her 
 wish to return to the service, in her 
 desire. that her sister should continue 
 in it; but I believe, when she was dis- 
 missed, when her application for being 
 again taken back was refused, she then 
 joined in this crusade against the 
 Qneen, and gave her testimony in utter 
 ignorance that these letters could be 
 brought forward against her. Somnch 
 for this lady and her virtuous testi- 
 mony. I observe, my lords, with great 
 surprise, a most pleasing symptom of 
 liberality in the present times — I al- 
 lude to the reception which Sacchi met 
 when he was presented here as a wit- 
 ness. This shews how the age is im- 
 proved, and how we are rising above 
 those vulgar prejudices which a few 
 years ago were entertained against the 
 r'rench, and their leader Buonaparte. 
 I rcn'.ember the day when few persons 
 would have ventured to bring forward 
 a principal witness in any case, much 
 less in one of this delicate nature, who 
 had been a soldier of Buonaparte, who 
 had served during many campaigns 
 with him, and who had been promoted 
 by that Corsican usurper — that revo- 
 lutionary adventurer — that tyrannical 
 chief: then a French hussar would 
 have almost been considered another 
 name for every thing that m as profli- 
 gate and abandoned. However against 
 the Queen of Enuland he is thought a 
 witness good enough; and, coming to 
 England, he took upon himself the cha- 
 racter of a gentleman ; and he that had 
 been once a common soldier in the 
 French army, and afterwards a courier 
 in the service of the Queen, was 
 
MR. UROUGIIAM. 
 
 207 
 
 broui»]»t foiwanl as a person on whose 
 tesiiinony t'le udnost reliaucc nii^lit 
 be reposed. I did not object to him 
 that he \\:u\ hwu a sohlier, tUonxh per- 
 haps I (lid not think that the Italiiins 
 in tlie French army, and especially 
 tliose from llie north of Italy, were 
 iisnally tiie most scrupnions of man- 
 kind. Sacchi,. too, dealt in his double 
 entendrfs; besides, he had gone by 
 three whole names and a diminutive; 
 two of them v\ere known, and one yel 
 nnktiown, but by three names and a 
 half he had gone. When he came into 
 this contitry, and was withni the four 
 atMs, with Dnniont, he began his double 
 entendres, and he was not satislied with 
 one any more than with one name: lie 
 had got into tlie habit of dealing in 
 dnible entendres ; and accordingly liis 
 first was, that he had come here in the 
 service of a 8|)anish family ; his second 
 regarded a law-snit, which had occa- 
 -.sioited his vi-.it lo l'>»i;land. Me stoutly 
 denied, however, that he received any 
 pay fiom liis present cm})loyers ; yet 
 havij»!i htiu very unwillingly turned 
 away by the Queen from the low office 
 of a courier or equerry, he casie to 
 England, and lived like a gentleman of 
 •fortune. He resembled Dumont in 
 another respect — they both showed the 
 same want of connexion between their 
 speaking and writiiii^. He was asked 
 how nuicii money he had at his banker's 
 at Lausanne, and he answered fifty 
 Napoleons. " Had you never any 
 more?'" "Positively not." He was 
 then asked vvluiher he had never said 
 that he had had more? What would 
 have been the natural answer if any 
 n»an had ventured to put such a (pies- 
 tion to one of iheir lordships ? What 
 wuHid have been the reply.'' "Cer- 
 taiuly not ;'' because it had already 
 been stated that no more than fifty 
 Napoleons were, in fact, at the banker's. 
 A letter was then shown to the witness, 
 and he was asked, whether he liad ever 
 said (for I was not allowed to ask whe- 
 ther he had ever represeuied) that he 
 had ^en in a n)iserable situation, and 
 bad taxed himself with ingraiiiude, and 
 i^ished to be restored to favour. He 
 answered," Never;" and ihathe never 
 bad been in a destitute siluatioa. The 
 next question was, " Were yon ever in 
 a situatioii to require compassion ? — 
 Never." " Did you ever ask any body 
 to take compassion on your situation ? 
 —That may be so." " Are these letters 
 your bfWHi.writing ?— Yes." M heu the 
 
 letter.^ were read it won'd appear Ih 
 the plainest terms that he had taxed 
 hitiiself with ingratitmle ; and yet this 
 honest man, this soldier of linouaparte, 
 sheltered hiniself nnder the word " say'* 
 — and because he had only written that 
 lie was in a distressed situation, he 
 swore that he had never said it. Wt;uld 
 any honest man think, that such a piti- 
 lul quibble would avail him under such 
 ciicnmstances.'' lint their lordships 
 wotdd renjetnber what passed after- 
 wards ; for I now Come to a providen- 
 tial ac( klent, if I may use such con- 
 tradictoiy terujs in compliance with 
 the coi«mon nnderstaudfng of then . 
 I now come to an accident, which i 
 call a Providence in favour of inno* 
 cence,\vhici» is always the care of Pro- 
 vulence. Sacchi was asked — '* Why 
 did you change your name?" ^nd Uc 
 replied — " on account of the tHuuiU 
 which happened, and which made me 
 know I should run a risk." — " When 
 did you chang*^ your name?" The an- 
 swer well deserved observation. ** A 
 year ago.'' When he gave his first 
 re[>ly, he did not recollect that the 
 tumult at Dover took place in 1820, 
 and that he changed his name in July, 
 1819, before he came to this country. 
 This was a providential circumstance, 
 by which conspiracies were detected, 
 and without which every one of their 
 lordships might be victims to-nmrrovv. 
 I call upon the house to give due 
 vveijiht to this observation, and to 
 mai k how it i^ borne out by the evU 
 dence. The Attorney-General, veiy 
 judiciously seeing its consequenc€>, 
 did not pursue this inquiry; but somv 
 of their lordships cout'mued it : and 
 thus a perfect picture was drawn of <% 
 shuffling witness, prevaricating and 
 beating about the bush, to sheltiir him- 
 self from the consequences 6f an u*- 
 lucky slip, by which the whole credit 
 of his tesiimony was overthrown. Th♦.^ 
 confusion, the embarrassment, the per- 
 plexity of Sacchi on this occasion could 
 not have becji forgotten. He vias 
 asked at what time he had chani^cd hi$ 
 name? He answered — "Fourorfivo 
 days before I set out for England. 
 When was that ? In the month oT July , 
 last year. — What was your motive for 
 taking that name, at that time, at Paris? 
 To shelter myself against any incon- 
 venience that might happen. — What 
 tumult had taken place at that time t» 
 induce you to change your name P I 
 was vvarued that (h« wituesacii a^iuft 
 
^os 
 
 DEFLNCE OF THE QUEEN, 
 
 tile Qneen miglit run some risk, if they 
 xvere known. — Had you been informed 
 that tlicy liad actually run any risk? 
 Tiioy liatl iipt run nuy risk tlien." — An 
 opportunity was now afforded, of which 
 any honest witn< ss would have availed 
 himselfjof explaining the whoie fact, for 
 his former question and answer upon 
 this point were rcwd over to him. Sac- 
 chi, however, had only involved him- 
 self in new difficuities, in endeavouring 
 to escape from those he had already 
 encountered : lie stated, that, while at 
 Paris, a gentleman came, accompanied 
 by Kronse, and told him, that it would 
 be necessary for him to change his 
 name, because it would be dangerous 
 lor hinito'^come to England in his own. 
 '* Did he tell you tliat any tumult had 
 taken place ? — He told me some tumult, 
 some disorder." " On what occasion 
 did he say that tumult had taken place? 
 — He told me nothing else.'' Being 
 furtlier pressed upon this point, he had 
 resorted to the invariable expedient of 
 witnesses, when driven into a corner, 
 by stating, " I have repeated what that 
 gentleman told me." I could not deny 
 what Sacchi might liave imagined ; but 
 1 insisted that it was as impossible 
 that any gentleman, known or unknow n, 
 could at that period have given him 
 this information, as that any man 
 should, by chance, have written the 
 Iliad. I am afraid that your lordships 
 do not feel this point with the force 
 It deserves; of course, at the present 
 moment, every body talked of tumults 
 at home, on the arrival of witnesses 
 against the Queen; but going back to 
 July, 1819, when Sacchi first changed 
 his name, what man, in his most fanci- 
 ful mood, ever dreamt that such a tu- 
 mult would occur in 1820? In fact, 
 it was nothing more than an inven- 
 tion by the witness to cover his 
 retreat from a position in which he 
 bad been unwarily entrapped. It 
 was only by such circumstances as 
 these that perjuries were detected, 
 and this leads me to remark, that 
 if witnesses are convicted of untrue 
 swearing on collateral points, how 
 tiivial soever they may be, it puts an 
 end to all their credibility in the main 
 facts of the conspiracy. One of these 
 main faets, as far as related to the evi- 
 dence of Sacchi and Rastelli, another 
 disciiarged courier, is of a nature so 
 disgusting anjl. offensive, that I feel it 
 difficult even to make the slightest 
 allusion to it. Do your lordships think 
 
 it very likely that any woman— I might 
 almost say, the most miserable prosti- 
 tute discharged from Bridewell — would 
 commit, in the face of open day, what 
 had been charged against the Queen 
 by Rastelli? Would they believe, that 
 with the knowledge that a courier was 
 travelling by the side of the carriage, 
 the blinds of which might be raised, 
 the Qneen would run the risk of blast- 
 ing her character, even among the most 
 abandoned of her sex, by going to sleep 
 in the position described by Sacchi as 
 that in which he had discovered the 
 Princess and her chamberlain ? But 
 the credulity of the House must be 
 stretched yet many degrees ; for if it 
 could persuade itself that this had hap- 
 pened once, it would be nothing to 
 what Sacchi had sworn he had been in 
 the constant habit of seeing, again and 
 again. I appeal to your lordships, 
 whether this story had the smallest^ 
 appearance of probability j whether, 
 unless the parties w ere absolutely insane 
 such conduct can be accounted for. I 
 am saying nothing of the physical impos- 
 sibility of the the thing, at a time when 
 the carriage was travelling at the rate 
 of nine or ten miles an hour, over such 
 roa-ds as are found in that part of Italy,* 
 with their hands placed across each 
 other, while the parties were both fast 
 asleep, and, of course, without any 
 power over their limbs. To overcojue 
 this difficulty would require the evi- 
 dence of philosophers, who had witnes- 
 sed an experiment so new and so 
 stranire. The witness had not ven- 
 tured upon any description of the carri- 
 age, excepting that it had curtains; 
 but what would their lordships say, if 
 it should be proved to have been an 
 English carriage, M'ith glass and spring 
 blinds. What if I shew that the blinds 
 could not be raised without opening 
 the door to get at the springs upon the 
 inside; aad still more, what if I should 
 prove that Sacchi was not the courier 
 who went on that journey? I do not 
 say it is necessary for me to prove this ; 
 on the contrary, I deny that I am called 
 upon to do so. Why had not the other 
 side established their case ; and if cast- 
 off servants would not afford them a 
 sufficient evidence, why had not tliey 
 resorted to those still in attendance 
 upon her Majesty ? I again entreat your 
 lordships to remember — for it is a car- 
 dinal point, that ought not to be for- 
 gotteil — that an accuser is not relieved 
 from producing Kufficieut evidence, be- 
 
MR. BROUGHAM, 
 
 209 
 
 can«p good witnesses are to be found 
 on the side of the accused. I had no 
 right to call upon the accused to pro- 
 duce those witnesses; for it is the 
 business of the accuser to establish 
 guilt by all the evidence he can pro- 
 duce. Hut was there any other person 
 in the carriage? " Non mi ricordo'' was 
 the answer of Sacchi, adopting the lan- 
 guage of the celebrated Majochi: and 
 this question was not put to him by sur- 
 prise, nor .was it a point that might 
 have escaped his memory. It was a 
 thing he could not have forgotten : he 
 must have made the observation, whe- 
 ther there was awy ollur person pre- 
 sent, while the Queen and her cham- 
 berlain were lying tUere exposed. In 
 the next place, after a person had wit- 
 nessed such a scene, was it likely, that, 
 from that moment, his lips should be 
 hermetically sealed? — that he shoidd 
 never even whisper it to any person 
 — that he should never dream of confi- 
 ding it to the willing ear of the gentle, 
 romantir, and sympathetic Dumont ? 
 He had long enjojed a soft intercourse 
 with htr, both here and abroad, and if 
 he never whispered it to her, it no 
 dou^)t arose from that extreme deli- 
 cacy which prevailed between them to 
 a degree unknown in regions less pure 
 'and refined. When the question was 
 put him, whether he had not related it 
 *to any one, he pursued that course 
 Vhich he thought most safe and best 
 calculated to screen him from contra- 
 dicti/m ; " I told it to people," said he, 
 " but I cannot recollect any one to 
 whom I told it." Did not any man per- 
 ceive, that if such a thing had passed, 
 and he had been an eye-witness of it, 
 iaiiid had afterwards related it to any 
 ■pne, the witness couM not have failed 
 ,to recollect to whom he had so told it ? 
 1 now come to Kresse's storj of what 
 liappencd at Carlsruhe. 
 
 Earl (JrREY here interposed, obser- 
 ving that four o'clock, the hour up- 
 'pointcd for adjourning, had arrived, 
 and the learned counsel did not appear 
 to have arrived near his conclusion. 
 
 The Earl of LIVEfiPOOLsaid, that 
 if an extension of a quarter of an hour 
 would have been sufficient for the con- 
 clusion, the House would probably nat 
 have objected to proceeding; but that, 
 in the present instance, did not seem 
 to be tl»e case. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR added, 
 that it would be impojssible for counsel 
 to do justice to the case, If ihcy were 
 
 21 
 
 limited within any specified time. 
 He thought it much better that the 
 House should adjourn till to-morrow. 
 — Adjourned at four o'clock. 
 
 WEDNESDAY, October 4th. 
 
 Several papers containing an accoun^ 
 of the sum and .supplies granted her 
 Majesty, for her trial, were laid on the 
 table. And, after a few observations 
 fromLordsDarnley and Erskine,the lat- 
 ter of whom handed some papers across 
 the table, counsel were called in, and 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM resumed.— How 
 comes it to pass, my lords, that with no 
 want of care, with much effort and ma- 
 naging, with boundless resources to 
 bring those efforts into play, that there 
 should be one remarkable deficiency in 
 the case on the names of the witnesses 
 being announced ; and by that defici- 
 ency, I mean that want of balance be- 
 tween the countries from which the 
 evidence has been brought, you will 
 perceive at once, my lords, the great 
 unfairness in the number brought from 
 some countries; so that while the Ita- 
 lian states are represented by number- 
 less deputies,! will not say of all ranks, 
 but of the lowest of the low — of the 
 middle ones, the moment you con>e 
 across the Alps, you find Switzerland 
 represented by a single virgin, and the 
 whole of the circles of the German ter- 
 ritory by one solitary nymph here ; the 
 capital of that country has no deputy, 
 and during the entire of the tour made 
 by her Majesty not a single delegate 
 has been sent over to aid in the dram^i 
 whrch has been so long preparing. 
 From the place of her Majesty's nati- 
 vity, and whete she must have been 
 well known, you have no delegate; 
 and all you hear on this side of tlie 
 Alps, is a chamber-maid, or a serving- 
 maid, and a cook or a waiter, or an as- 
 sistant to a cellar-man, (for it appears he 
 has gono Ihrougli all these situations.) 
 Hut this woman is the single evidence 
 for all that occurred in that part of the 
 world — And the same simple Swiss is 
 the one selected to assist the greater 
 number of the Italians. I beg yoor 
 lordship's pardon, there are two grand 
 exceptions, but these I call my witnes- 
 ses, and not those of my learned friends. 
 
 My lords, I now come to call your 
 attention to the single German witness, 
 and to whom I find myself obliged to 
 have recourse, for the purpose of ob- 
 laining a knowledge of her per-iliar 
 
?iO 
 
 DEFENCE OP THE QUEEN. 
 
 qualificjations. She |s notan unfavora- 
 ble witness ; but, except in the case df 
 the Queen, she is the only person who 
 has fabricated something against her- 
 self. Kress, according to her own ac- 
 count, had the upimpeached and unim- 
 l^eacbable character of a chamber-maid 
 at a German inn. If you calculate her 
 years when she entered it, as compared 
 with her age when she here gave her 
 evidence, you will find she was about 
 thirteen years old when she first became 
 a chamber-maid ; where she lived after, 
 or where or whom she served, it is not 
 quite so easy to discover : but all im- 
 pediment to this is speedily removed, 
 oy knowing the motives she had for not 
 informing us how she passed her time, 
 until we again find her at the inn where 
 her Majesty is alleged to have been at- 
 tended by her. Kress tells you she 
 lived with Mr. So and So. She tries to 
 sink, upon us ; but it at last comes out, 
 that in all the instances (with one ex- 
 ception) where she lived, unless when 
 ^he was somewhere employed in a laun- 
 dry, tliat in all other cases her place of 
 employment was an inn, and no other 
 place. She has left us here some little 
 room to see the nature of her character 
 j»nd preten>ibns. First, then, we find 
 in what manner she was induced to give 
 her evidence. For if she exhibited a 
 considorable unwillingness to come 
 here ; it was riot in consequence of any 
 lack of agents, who were there found 
 in continued numbers, continued acti- 
 vity, and unabating resources — agents 
 against whom I have to charge much 
 greater impropriety than in any of those 
 who have figured beyond the Alps. I 
 adduce to yoUrlordships'notice Grimm, 
 and I shall trace his connection for you 
 with the present proceedings. He and 
 Reden, who succeeded Ompteda at 
 Rome, who was one of those that dared 
 to treat the Queen Consort of England, 
 who was his Queen, as well as she is 
 your Queen, my lords, with those in- 
 sults, which would have rendered it 
 Impossible for her to remain at Rome, 
 even if the vindication of her honour 
 did not render her departure a matter 
 of necessity. Grimm and Reden, and 
 another whose name is not present to 
 lue, but one of those with a long 
 iGerman name, which will be found in 
 the evidence, a minister at the court of 
 Baden, were the active and unscrupu- 
 l»us agents of the German scenes in this 
 drama. Grimm in his zeal, scrupled 
 »ot to throw off all those feelings 
 
 which a man may not dismiss in private 
 life ; he considered he would be justi- 
 fied in doing that as a minister, which 
 would disgrace him as an individual ; 
 and, to please his employer, was satis- 
 fied to call down the indignation of 
 his country upon him. Provided he 
 thought his master would cover him 
 with rewards, he did not care to de- 
 grade himself in his private capacity 
 as a man : and he would, no doubt, 
 have been disgraced and degraded io 
 the eyes of mankind, if he were not 
 regarded as acting in the light of a di- 
 plomatic agent. Grimm was living iu 
 those apartments which her Majesty 
 occupied. On her arrival he artfully 
 gave them up ; he accommodated her 
 with the use of his rooms; he kindly 
 left his apartments, and disinterestedly 
 suffered the inconvenience resulting 
 from it; he courteously gave them up 
 for her Majesty's use ; and the moment 
 she left them, the very day on which 
 she departed, he returns to the same 
 rooms — he is found, with one of his 
 coadjutors in the conspiracy, running 
 up and down, to use the words of 
 Kress ; he is lookins: over the furniture, 
 prying into the beds, and taking notes 
 of what passes, no doubt, with a notion 
 of giving satisfaction to those, whom I 
 know to be above such a dirty business. 
 Grimm is every where seen as the run- 
 ner in the conspiracy, the sedulous 
 agent of the machinations against the 
 Queen, regardless of his own dignity, 
 forgetful of the dignity of the sovereign 
 whom he represents, he still acts in the 
 manner which I have just described. 
 With all this, however, he does not 
 condescend to be a witness, he does pot 
 adventure to come forward here, he 
 does not show the same courage here, 
 that he did to draw upon him the re- 
 probation of his countrymen ; and 
 though of paramount importance to 
 that part of the case in which Kresis 
 has alone been called, they Imve not 
 ventured to bring the Baron, this agent, 
 this representation of royalty before 
 your lordships. The importance of 
 his testimony you will still, my lords, 
 feel to be heightened, when you reflect 
 for a moment that he entered the room 
 the moment the Queen left it, and 
 should therefore have been called to 
 confirm the truth of what Kress told 
 you. Let us, my lo;rds, pursue Kress 
 a little farther. Let us look at the con- 
 tradictory account she gives of her mo- 
 tives foir coming over to give hei* ev^- 
 
MR, BROUGHAM. 
 
 211 
 
 deuce. Twice over she swears she 
 was forced to come by compulsion ; 
 ami yet only turn the next page, and 
 you'll find she made a bargain for her 
 coming. She would not adopt the 
 difference in the German words for 
 compensation and remuneration. She 
 would not say one word, except that 
 slie was brouijht here by compulsion ; 
 at the same time that it was accompa- 
 nied with a trifling bargain. What rea- 
 son, my lords, had she lo expect any 
 thing without a bargain ? In what libe- 
 rality did she confide as the ground on 
 which it would be meted out i« her ? 
 You will see in her evidence with 
 what reluctance it was wrung from her 
 that she was to have had any compensa- 
 tion. She is asked, '* Were you ever 
 examined ? — Yes. When ? — I was 
 taken to Hanover. What had you 
 for going ? — I don't recollect, it was 
 so little ; it was a little, very little/' 
 Why, the less it was, the more easily it 
 could be remembered ; but, it now 
 turns out, it was easily remembered, 
 because it was so great. " A little, 
 very little.*' What is the mere little, 
 tlie very little ? What, if it was six times 
 larger than her whole year's wages? 
 What, if this " very little," this mere 
 nothing were ten times greater than 
 her wages and perquisites put together ? 
 What if one trip to and from Frank- 
 fort, which might have occupied about 
 ten days or a fortnight, this mere no- 
 tUittg,which she drops from her memory, 
 turns out to be double the sum she ever 
 received in any one year, including all 
 her payments and wages while she 
 was in the occupation of a chamber- 
 maid ? ^ 
 
 Now, my lords, will any man, of 
 even ordinary understanding, admit- 
 ting this to l>e the very first time he 
 was called upon to exercise his facul- 
 ties — will he, or can he bring himself 
 to believe this woman did not recollect 
 what she was paid, in consequence of 
 the littleness of the sum,^as she has 
 sworn? Why, if it were a '* very 
 little," it must have made such an im- 
 pression, as would not only prevent 
 her forgetfulness of it, but induce to 
 its more correct remembrance. Then 
 if her evidence be false when she says 
 she docs not recollect what she re- 
 ceived, in consequence of its being 
 **very little," it must be considered 
 as equally false, when she says she 
 expects nothing for the future. The 
 
 same equivocation runs through all 
 her evidence, both as to the 8taten]ient 
 of what she says she saw, and as to 
 her alleged purpose of going to Madam 
 Oldi's room. She was sure she saw 
 the Princess on that occasion, but it 
 was also necessary for her to deny the 
 precipe nature of her motive for spying 
 after her. Non constat, however, that 
 the Queen was in her room, because 
 Madam Oldi was in hersj and it by no 
 means follows, because she may have 
 actually seen Madam oldi in her room, 
 that the Princess was seen in hers. 
 It is the well paid employment of the 
 witness, as of all the others, in this 
 conspiracy, for the remark equally 
 applies to them, to swear in the terms 
 and in the manner tliey have done. 
 With respect to Carlsrnhe, though 
 Grimm was so conspicuous there, he 
 did not come forward, nor any ot his 
 coadjutors, though he had m^iy; nor 
 any of the other servants who com- 
 posed the Queens suite. And why, 
 I ask, are they not brought forward ? 
 But HOW, my lords, I must again cross 
 the Alps, and find, that having pre- 
 viously disposed of the principal 
 people, those remaining are used but 
 as mere make-weight, something to 
 fill up gaps, to connect the story, to 
 swear at all events, though their 
 swearing cannot advance the cause 
 one atom. Nothing I think, my lords, 
 can be more utterly inconceivable, 
 than that which these witnesses have 
 sworn, cfJuld have been seen by mortal 
 eyes. The character and nature of the 
 witnesses are of the lowest class— they 
 are of the meanest appearance, and of 
 the humblest occupations, — even after 
 all the pains which your lordships can 
 see to have been taken to render them 
 produceable witnesses before you. 
 This must have struck every one, how 
 little they wf^re calculated to give an 
 impression of respectability, either as 
 to their character or the credibility of 
 what they told. I might, my lords, 
 remind your lordships of the sailor, 
 one of those who kept the boat, and 
 the only one of all who was present 
 that has b<'en called before you. I 
 should suppose that none of those 
 persons had any confidential com- 
 munication with any of the parties in 
 this case, (if parties I may allude to 
 while contrary to all common sense I 
 -must not say there are any); but I 
 cannot help remarking, that if any 
 
212 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE aUEEN, 
 
 persons had acted as has been described 
 before eleven men, it must have 
 struck every one at the moment, it 
 must have become a general topic of 
 remark, and have spread wherever the 
 wind could waft it. But of all the 
 swarm of petty witnesses who have 
 been called to fdl up this gap with 
 other tales, why have none of the rest 
 of these eleven been called ? Did the 
 sailor ever say to any one before what 
 he has sworn here ? Yes, once. 
 Where? when? At Milan. Before that? 
 Kever. — And so it is with all the rest 
 So it is with Kastelli, who swears to 
 those abominations having been com- 
 mitted in the face of day, while lie 
 himself was only at four paces dis- 
 tance. Rastelli, like all the rest, in 
 swearing to tlmse foul, those strange 
 abominations, has his lips hermetieally 
 sealed from the very moment he says 
 he saw them comniitted, until the 
 period at which he appears before 
 the Milan Commission ! Ten months 
 elapse, and still the same silence. 
 Was he living all this time like a 
 hermit? Did he fly to some desert — 
 as a recluse or a solitary, hide himself 
 from the face of men, and not com 
 municatc to mistress, wife, or friend, 
 to fellow.boatman, or fellow-servant, 
 what he had seen ? Did no busy pas- 
 senger on the lake of Como make any 
 enquiry as to what was occurring— 
 and I hough joke or jest, or for more 
 wicked purposes, did not the corrup- 
 tion often practised on such excursions 
 (which 1 shall prove to have taken 
 place) render that disclosure which 
 discretion would not allow him other- 
 wise to have made ? Amidst the iViauy 
 amusing tales coined for the amuse- 
 ment of passengers, how^ comes this 
 to have been passed over? How is it 
 that nothing had transjiired even to 
 the appointed gossips of men in his 
 situation of life ? Is it the effect ot" 
 such sights to make such men silent? 
 Would it be the effects of such sights 
 to seal up your lordships' mouths — to 
 make no reusark even to your friends — 
 to make no communication of it to 
 those who, like yourselves, might have 
 witnessed them? Evt n with men of 
 your lordships dignified hahits and su- 
 perior education, could such exhibi- 
 tions pass unnoticed, and the knowr 
 ledge of them not run through all your 
 familiar acquaintances at least? I 
 know not myself of even one private 
 iqdividaal— not bound to conftdetice— 
 
 not relied on for some reasons to keep 
 secret such wickedness, who would 
 not have jnade those wij«e and salutary 
 remarks, which Mere not made by 
 those low persons, who so differ from 
 the upper ranks, and who, if we be- 
 lieve what we have heard, arc so much 
 more discreet— that seeing those things 
 which must offend the eye and crim- 
 son the checkof all not dead to feeling 
 and to shame — they kept a most 
 guarded silence, and so reverenced 
 morals, that they did not whisper what 
 had so shocked and stained them. 
 In no one case, however, did tkey tell 
 of these sights, until the taUsman was 
 displayed at the Milan commission, 
 and all came forth as your lordships 
 have heard it related ! Was th<? Prin- 
 cess kissing? — why, if we are to believe 
 all we have been told, it happt ned as 
 often as the wind blew on the Lake of - 
 Como. Was the Princess riding with 
 her servant?— a thing that happened 
 every, day — why sights, strange, mon- 
 strous, portentous (if they were ex- 
 hibited), are said to have occurred-. 
 But, my lords, could they have oc- 
 curred ? If they had occurred, could 
 silence have been kept respecting 
 them for months? Could so many 
 have seen theiu, and no conversation 
 ever have ensued — or how is it that 
 until ten months after, when the Milan 
 Conmiissiou was established, that the :. 
 lips of the witnesses were never once 
 unsealed ? They concealed those things, ■. 
 my lords, when they were crimes until » 
 the time came for their disclosure, i 
 They may perchance have concealed I 
 tlu n*i, finding that jesser scandal had /. 
 been better pai<l. But they kept the r 
 secret no lenger than the journey to 
 Milaij douiandcd : and they kept it no 
 longer than from the period it first, 
 crossed their guilty imaginations, ta ' 
 the time when they were so well paid; 
 for divulging it. Do your lordships; 
 recollect Pietro Cuchio? Does he notr" 
 rise before j'ou at the very mention of r 
 his name? Canyon forget those ardent .. 
 eyes — that nose, that n:outh, that, 
 lecherous mouth, with which the wretch 
 detailed such scenes of filthiness before I 
 you? Do you recollect the eye of thati 
 old pander ia Trieste — that hoary i 
 wretch, that profligate pander — who 5 
 eyed your lordships as the old tailori 
 did in hell through the eye of his worn* 
 needle? You cannot forget his look»,> 
 and the nature of his evidence. But> 
 I sbair coutradict iiim ; he shall not 
 
MR. BUaUGHAM. 
 
 213 
 
 rass unpnnlshrd— he must he punished, 
 can drag others, too, to punishnuut ; 
 but he, at all events, shall not escape. 
 I shall shew that that man must have 
 sworn falsely, both from the position 
 of the rooms, and the situation of the 
 doors which he has himself described. 
 I will shew you more — I will shew yon 
 vrhat he has sworn cannot be true. 
 Here, or elsewhere, he must be made 
 an example, as a pattern to others, 
 who swear in proportion to their pay- 
 ment. I can show you, my lords, that 
 the Queen slept but one night during 
 the course of her whole life and jour- 
 Beyings at Trieste : that she went to 
 the opera there, the only truth he has 
 told — that she left it on the morrow, 
 and never after crossed the thresh-hold 
 of that inn. You recollect, my lords, 
 all the foolish stories you have heard 
 about the pictures, about the chain, 
 about the manner of its being thrown 
 on, and thrown off, and all the theatri- 
 cal colouring with which it was set 
 off. Your lordships cannot certainly 
 but recollect all this, and I am sure 
 you cannot equally avoid agreeing 
 witli me that the Italians who coin 
 these fictions, are not less ingenious 
 than their countrymen are universally 
 known to have been in ancient times: 
 and that, whether lachimo be the 
 genuine offspring of our Shakspeare 
 or not, there cannot remain a single 
 doubt but that he is own brother to the 
 witnesses who have been produced 
 before your lordships' bar — witnesses 
 who have belied a Lady Princess, 
 Queen of this fair Isle. Well may 
 they say, 
 
 -^ " Mine Italian brain 
 
 'Gan, in your duller Kritain operate 
 Most vilely ; for my 'vantage, excellent ; 
 And to be brief, my practice so pre- 
 vailed, 
 That I returned with similar proof 
 
 enough 
 To make the noble Leonatus mad. 
 By wounding his belief in her renown 
 With tokens thus, and thus ; averring 
 
 notes 
 Of chamber-hanging, pictures, this, her 
 
 bracelet, 
 (O, cunning, how I got it ?") 
 
 Here, my lords, we have exactly the 
 same evidence : witnesses from the 
 same country, swearing to the same 
 effect; and by some extraordinary co- 
 incidence, the two cases are sought 
 to be sub»t?mtiated by X]iq same means 
 
 and for the same object. Having now 
 disposed generally of the character of 
 the witnesses, permit me, my lords, 
 to advert to the different heads of 
 charge in the accusation, or indictment, 
 for I know not what to call it. In 
 passing, I have anticipated many ob- 
 servations which might, perhaps, have 
 more properly been introduced here ; 
 and in truth, while dealing with such 
 a case as this, it was impossible not 
 to have done so, however unintention- 
 ally, or however lessening the effect 
 this might produce, if introduced in 
 this particular placo. To have done 
 so, however, will now spare your lord- 
 ships time ; but I should not yet feel 
 that I had sufficiently discharged my 
 duty, if I do not solicit your lordships' 
 attention to those various heads, or 
 counts of the indictment, which your 
 lordships are now trying under the 
 singular title of a Bill of Pains and 
 Penalties. The first of them, my lords, 
 is the Neapolitan scene — there the 
 business is said to have fir\t com- 
 menced ; there the parties are first 
 said to have come touether, and, 
 strange as it must seem, to have ac- 
 complished that purpose, which they 
 only appear to have conceived about 
 ten days or a fortnight before. It 
 cannot here fail to impress itself on 
 your lordships, that her Majesty was, 
 theretofore, a person of unimpeached 
 character and unimpeachable life, 
 proved to have been so, by so much 
 the stronger evidence than if she had 
 b«en suspected — proved to have been 
 so under the most trying circum- 
 stances — proved to have been so by 
 triumphant acquittals — proved to have 
 been so, if there be any thing like 
 justice in the world — proved to have 
 been so by two solemn acquittals, after 
 two searching examinations ; and so 
 much the more proved to have been 
 so, that when one set of ministers gave 
 her a sort of general acquittal, but 
 still recommended her to be censured* 
 that their successors in office, not 
 satisfied with that scanty acquittal, 
 recommended she should be received 
 by her uncle and father as the purest 
 and most spotless Princess that ever 
 adorned the walks of kingly life. How 
 did she demean herself the instant she 
 was acquitted, on her arrival in Italy? 
 Why, you are told that the character 
 so supported, so vindicated, comes 
 purer out of trial than if it never had 
 been questioned, had been flung ofTj 
 
214 
 
 DEFENCE Ol' THE QUEEN, 
 
 and degraded— that character so com- 
 mended by those very ministers who 
 vrere now the instnnnents of her pro- 
 secution, you are informed, had be- 
 come so lost and so debased as to 
 degrade the most profligate of her sex. 
 Can your lordships credit abandon- 
 ment like this ? 
 
 Her Majesty, it appears, hired a 
 menial servant, of whom I shall say 
 something hereafter ; she then moved 
 onwards towards Naples ; and within 
 a month after such an interval, the 
 degradation of the Princess is said to 
 have been complete, and the mistress 
 of the servant is represented to have 
 been the mistress of a menial courier, 
 "Which a person profligate for years 
 conld not so suddenly have stoopod to 
 be ! The whole of the case must fail, 
 unless yonr lordships believe that on 
 the second night after her arrival at 
 Naples the alleged intimacy corn^ 
 menced. If Majochi and Dumont are 
 to be believed, the intimacy mmt then 
 Lave begun; and your lord.*hips will 
 see with what a measure of caution. 
 Even supposing a course of profligacy 
 could render a woman incautious, 
 there is something in the tale we have 
 heard that sets all credibility, all pro- 
 bability, at open defiance. The very 
 first act they are alleged to have com- 
 mitted is the most incautious of all the 
 rest — and this, you will be pleased to 
 recollect, how, and on what occasion, 
 it is brought forward. How was the 
 loom prepared for the indulgence of 
 this crlminai passion, in the gratifrca- 
 tion of which all cantion seemed to 
 have been abandoned. Nothing was 
 prepared but a small iron, bedstead. 
 Oil this alone were clothes placed for 
 the reception of any body. These 
 ■were all the preparations which were 
 irfade, and this, too, in a house every 
 room of which contained a comfort- 
 able bed. In that room it was true 
 that there was a large bed ; but this 
 had remained untouched. There were 
 DO sheets upon it to receive any 
 person, nor did it indicate from its 
 appearance that any body had slept in 
 it; so, at least, did Dumont say in her 
 first examination ; but it was important 
 to remark, that in her subsequent 
 examination by Mr. Williams, she 
 improved upon this statement, when he 
 reminded her that the bed had not 
 been much tumbled. Then, and there, 
 for the first time, came the story of 
 •tains. What the nature Gf the stains 
 
 was she could not tell : no person 
 examined her on the subject wh« n she 
 came out with this fact. She did not 
 like the operations of my learned 
 friend, Mr. Williams, on the previous 
 day; she was not in very great 
 charity with him — and then it was 
 she said she would tell him more, that 
 she recollected circumstances whieh 
 escaped her m«mory before. The 
 question my learned friend asked coiiM 
 not, and ought not, to make her remem- 
 ber more. I ask yonr lordships, could 
 she have forgotten? Was it likely^ 
 when asked wliat the state of the bed 
 was, that she should not remember it? 
 She said the Queen returned home 
 early from the opera, and appeared in 
 a state of unusual agitation. I shall 
 pro've that she returned home late, and 
 that William Austin, long before the 
 period mentioned, bad ceased to sleep 
 in the Princess's room. What possi- 
 ble occasion was there for her early 
 return from the opera ? It could not be 
 accounted for in the way insinuated by 
 the witness. Bergami, as courier, had 
 access to her room at all hours. It was 
 not necessary, therefore, that she should 
 return early. Will any person say. If 
 the circumstance of the bed being tum- 
 bled was true, that she would not have 
 stated it at first that she did not re- 
 member it? She recollected circum- 
 stances of far less importance occur- 
 ring at distant periods. Was it likely 
 that this escaped her memory, until 
 reminded of it afterwards ? To the 
 question whether the bed was tumbled, 
 she answered — ** Oh yes ! it appeared 
 as if two had slept in it;" and then de- 
 tailed what it was impossible any per- 
 son could remember, these ordinary 
 signs, which are no more attended to 
 tlian the wind that blows over one's 
 head. I now come to the other scene, 
 which she states to have occurred at 
 Naples. She mentions no particular 
 time ; she will not say whether it was 
 a week, a month, or a day, after the 
 circumstances already detailed. She 
 saw Bergami in his shirt, without stock- 
 ings or night-gown, coming out of his 
 own room, and moving towards that 
 part of the corridor in which the 
 Queen's chamber was. She did not 
 start ; Bergami did not start. She, 
 however, made her escape,and Bergami 
 moved on with more alacrity and stea- 
 diness of pace than a husband going to 
 the bed-chamber of his wife. I rely,m jr 
 lords, on the great features of the case 
 
MR. BROUGHAM* 
 
 215 
 
 aj detailed by the witness herself. On 
 these circumstauccs, which cannot have 
 escaped your lor<lships' observation, 
 and these, when considered in connec- 
 tion, I have no doubt, are such as will 
 leave no doubt on the mind of any rea- 
 sonable man, thai the witneiss is a per- 
 son unworthy of credit. Let me now 
 remind youi lordships of another scene 
 that is said to have occurred at Catania. 
 It was stated to have been witnessed 
 by two persons, by Dumont and Ma- 
 rit'tte. Both heard tiie child cr>ing in 
 the Princess's room, both heard Ma- 
 dam Oldi endeavouring to quiet it. 
 What is the reason, then, that both these 
 witnesses were not called ? What mo- 
 tive can be assigned for it ? Only one 
 has appeared before you. No person 
 has ventured to state that they commu- 
 nicated together from that day to this. 
 They did not communicate' Tliey 
 .could not. Dumont alone has been 
 called, and what was her story? It is 
 impossible that any thing could be 
 more improbable. It carries falsehood 
 on the very face of it. At Catania, 
 Jiergami, while well, used to sleep, not 
 in the room next the Queen's — not 
 even on the same corridor, but on the 
 opposite side of the court, at a distance 
 from the chamber.^ occupied by the 
 Princess and tlie Countess of OJdi. 
 Having fallen ill, he removed to the 
 Countess of Oldi's room, and there con- 
 tinued sick for some days. Is it not 
 most extraordinary — does it not appear 
 utterly improbable, a falsehood on the 
 very face of it, that the scene of an 
 amour idiould be laid in that room where 
 he was couiined with a fever — that this 
 should be the time selected for such a 
 purpose; not when he was in health, 
 but when he was lying there as a pa- 
 tient. Such was the moment chosen 
 for those endearments, which must be 
 necessarily understood, if you believe 
 the witness : such too was the situation 
 selected for so criminal a purpose : a 
 situation, in which detection was una- 
 voidable, as there were two servants 
 sleeping in the next room, Madame Ol- 
 di having quilted her's to come to that 
 >f the Princess. Does it not appear 
 extraordinary to your lordships, that 
 thi^ was the mode of operation adopted 
 upon this occasion ?— Does it not ap- 
 pear utterly improbable, that any per- 
 son pot absolutely deranged, should 
 run this risk for the indulgence of a 
 ' ciiminal passion. It appears the more 
 [•iflgVlar, if w^ consider that here, and 
 
 as at Naples, the intercourse, by a 
 slight change, might h?ive been ren- 
 dered perfectly safe and easy, fyee at 
 least from the immediate dan^a^er of dis- 
 covery by appointing Bergami's room 
 next to that of the Princess, aad 
 placing the maids last; or by the Prin- 
 cess herself taking the room in the mid- 
 dle. Th^s was not done. It does not 
 appear that such .an arrangement was 
 acted upon from the beginning to end. 
 In every case, the relative situation of 
 the rooms was the same as at Catania. 
 Such were the ingenious, the usual 
 tactics employed by her Majesty against 
 her own honour, her high character, her 
 credit with the world, her happiness, 
 and peace of mind ; such was the 
 talent, the extraordinary cunning with 
 which she conducted this intrigue, 
 never to do any act for the accomplish- 
 ment of her purpose, without affording 
 easy and certain means of detectioa. 
 I may b« told that the means are left 
 in my power of contradicting, this 
 story, by calling Mariette. I ask, 
 why she was not called by the ac- 
 cusers. I say she is their witness, 
 because she has been alluded to inth« 
 opening speech of my learned friend, 
 the Attorney-General; because she 
 has been spoken of in the evidence. 
 I contend she is your witness, because 
 this is a criminal proceeding: it is 
 even more important in its exigencies 
 of pure and sufficient truth. Why not 
 bring forward the second witness? 
 It was in the power of my learned 
 friends to do so, and in such a case as 
 this they were bound to bring forward 
 the very best evidence that cowhi he 
 procured. A Bill of Pains and Penal- 
 ties ought to be supported by testi- 
 mony as strong and unexceptionable 
 as a case in which life or limb are 
 concerned, I say she is your witness, 
 because it is sought to oppress us by 
 a Bill of Pains and Penalties ; she is 
 your witness, because by this measare, 
 if it should pass, an injury wiii be 
 inflicted on my client, greater than 
 even the loss of life or fortune — the 
 ruin of her fair fame, the privation 
 of all those rights attached to her ex- 
 alted situation, the overthrow of her 
 happiness, her peace of mind, of every 
 thing that is most dear and valuable. 
 My learned friends were bouu4 to 
 call forward the other witness, and if 
 the evidence already adduced be not 
 sufficient, as I contend it i^ Dot^ to 
 prove guilt — ^if justice reign in this 
 
216 
 
 DEFENCE OP THE QUEEN. 
 
 house, we should not be called upon 
 for a defence. I can easily conceive, 
 that, in a mere civil case, whore 
 suspicious evidence against a defend- 
 ant can be refuted by calling a clerk, 
 a servant, or a partner, it would be 
 proper to bring them forward ; but, 
 ID a criminal proceeding, there is no 
 necessity for this. There, guilt should 
 be established by pure, unsuspected 
 evidence, and if not so established, 
 acquittal ought to follow. 1 put the 
 case of a person charged with robbery, 
 or murder, and brought to trial on 
 
 : the oath of a common Bow-street of- 
 
 ' licer, panting for his reward — a hack- 
 uied spy, degraded by his calling to 
 the lowest scale of turpitude, or any 
 other suspicious witness. If such alone 
 
 . be put forward to prove the fact, I 
 say the unsuspected relations of such 
 a witness should not be called for the 
 
 . defence. There is no necessity for their 
 .. testimony, unless the case be proved 
 by unsuspected witnesses. The Bow- 
 street officer anxious for his reward, 
 the hired spy, the vile base informer, 
 on whose oath alone the case rests, 
 and who in their evidence have shewed 
 themselves unworthy of credit, do not 
 require that unsuspected witnesses 
 should be called on for the defence. 
 In sncli cases the English law provides, 
 vhat indeed justice and common sense 
 require, tliat every person should be 
 held innocent till he is proved guilty. 
 The Queen is now, and has been long 
 placed in a singular, in a most embar- 
 rassing situation. Her mind from 
 / recent, as well as former events, must 
 be naturally disposed to put a painful 
 constinction on the conduct and mo- 
 tives of all by whom she is surrounded. 
 She has been inured to this by a long 
 and uninterrupted course of perse- 
 cution — by much and severe oppres- 
 sion, abroad and at home, by manifold 
 frauds upon her benevolence and 
 generous credulity — by the malice and 
 treachery of spies and servants — by 
 those hidden artitices which it was im- 
 possible always to trace. This last 
 scene was not calculated to form f n 
 exception in her mind to the conduct 
 habitually pursued by those who sur- 
 rounded her. All she had witnessed 
 in Italy, all she witnessed since her 
 arrival here, down to the last day of 
 this proceeding — the witnesses who 
 appeared against her, the manner in 
 which they conducted themselves, the 
 nature of their testimony, were all cal- 
 
 culated to fill with general suspicion 
 and distrust, an othei wise nnsuspeCtins 
 breast. It is the portion of those who 
 h.ive been persecjitid by enemies so 
 little scrupulous as the Omptedas, the 
 Grimms, and the Redens, of another 
 country — not forget tin;^rthel)ouglas8€s, 
 those Omptedas of our own land — it is 
 their unhappy, but unavoidable lotto 
 be liable to suspicion — not to know to 
 whom they dare trnst. This distrust, 
 forced ou the mind by a recollection of 
 uncea.sing plots and artifice, must, no 
 doubt, render her Majesty extremely 
 fearful and ciicumspoct with respect 
 to any witness she may be disposed to 
 call in her defence. Her IVfiajesty, for 
 aught I know, may now be harbouring 
 in her breast a viper of the same brood 
 as Dumont, I mean the sister of that 
 person, one with whom she correspon- 
 ded, and, as she said, in cypher, but 
 this I do not believe. All these cir- 
 cnm.^tances are calculated to prescribe 
 suspicion, as a duty in her Majesty's 
 present situation. That great man 
 who, in former times fulminated over 
 Greece, to wake his country into cau- 
 tion against the chains that were pre- 
 paring for her, imprinted, in words of 
 fire, this maxim oh the breast of his 
 audience that, instead of all other ram- 
 parts for the protection of a people, 
 the best security against fraud and op- 
 pression is to imitate that mistrust of 
 the strong vv^hich nature has implanted 
 in the breasts of the feeble part of the 
 creation. It is alien to an innocent 
 creature, but it is one of these guards 
 that innocence is obliged to have re- 
 course to when surrounded by such 
 persons as the Grimms, the Omptedas, 
 the Douglasses, and the still less scru- 
 pulous Majochis, Dumonts, and Sac« 
 chis. I feel satisfied in my own mind, 
 that we are not to call this witness for 
 the defence, that we have no occasion 
 for it !md we been called upon by her 
 Majesty to deliver our opinion on this 
 point, I at least should feel it my duty 
 to awaken suspicions in her brrast. I 
 should consider that we. are justified 
 from all the circumstances in so doing, 
 and in leaving the case at once as it 
 now stands. Her Majesty, however, 
 has hitherto seen no reason to part 
 with a faithful servant, no ground of 
 suspicion arising against her conduct. 
 Slie ha?, as yet, discovered nothing to 
 her prejudice. We shall, therefore, 
 ray lords, preaent her before you as a 
 witness upon this occasion, and yoH 
 
MR. BnoUCfHAM. 
 
 217 
 
 vrlll then have an opportunity of hear- 
 ing from her own lips what will prove 
 that her sister is not borne out m her 
 statement by fact and trutii. She is, 
 upon this occasion, quite a gjratuitous 
 witness, coming; forward unuslied, and 
 merely from excessive zeal for that 
 mistress whose kindness she has long 
 experienced. We shall shew, that at 
 the time Dumont represented Bergami 
 as havinjr returned with the passport, 
 and spending the niyht in the Princess s 
 rooms that preparations were then actu- 
 ally making for the journey ; that so far 
 from remaining there during the night, 
 they entered the carriage in an hour 
 and a half after his arrival; that the 
 whole of this period was employed in 
 getting ready the bajigage; and that 
 while this business was ijoing forward, 
 the Queen's door continued always 
 open : her servants were constantly 
 passing, so that they might easily have 
 seen any thing that occurred in the 
 room. They all came in and out as 
 often as Bergami, making preparations 
 f>r the journey, whilst the Princess 
 was reclined on the bed in a travelling 
 dress in which she had lain down de- 
 termined at whatever hour the pass- 
 port arrived to resume her course. 
 Now, with respect to the Carlsruhe bu- 
 siness, there is no occasion to contra- 
 dict the witness Kress, that she saw a 
 woman in Bergami's room. I have al- 
 ready commented upon that point. It 
 is siiid that if (his were a plot, there 
 could be no difficulty in swearing une- 
 quivocally to the fact, as well as to the 
 other circumstances that have been 
 communicated, (^an they who argue 
 thus, forget that in a conspiracy there 
 are two very material points to be con- 
 sidered. In the tirst place, the more 
 effectual way of obtaining credibilty 
 and securing success in a plot of this 
 nature, is not to swear too hard, to 
 support an appearance of honest cau- 
 tion and scrupulous circnmspection, to 
 knit the false with the true with such 
 ingenuity as may procure belief, to 
 build a fanciful fabric of realities from 
 that which exists only in pictures, and 
 to state facts as moderately and as little 
 jjffensive as may be consistent with the 
 .object to be attained. How has it hap- 
 pened that in no one instance have two 
 witnesses been called to establish a sin- 
 gle fact? Why was this omitted, when 
 it might be done without difficulty? 
 Why. but for this plain reason, that it 
 would not be prudent to call forward 
 
 28 
 
 one for the purpose of swearing, and 
 another with a view to confirmation. 
 If two witnesses had been called to •ne 
 fact, it was likely that in the cross-ex- 
 amination they might contradict each 
 other, and therefore it was that my 
 learned friends prudently abstained 
 from having recourse to so dangerous 
 an experiment. One circumstance was 
 alluded to, to the truth of which, if 
 true, a number of witnesses might have 
 been called. The circumstance I mean 
 is that which is stated to have taken 
 place at the masquerade. It must have 
 been known to numbers that her Ma- 
 jesty appeared there; that she was 
 hissed in consequence of the indecency 
 of her dress. These were circum- 
 stances which, upon a public occasion 
 could not possibly have been concealed. 
 The hissing must ere long have beea 
 known at Naples, and not only there, 
 but to the surrounding country, and all 
 the cities round about, '* Et omnibus 
 aliis opidis." What has become of V. 
 Tyson? Why has she not been called ? 
 I will tell you the reason — she is not 
 an Italian. If the facts stated be true, 
 there were the most important reasons 
 fur calling this witness: she was one 
 of the Queen's servants — she had the 
 care of the linen, superintended it, and 
 no person was more likely to speak, 
 with certainty to the spots and stains 
 which were said to have been observed 
 on the bed clothes. There was no- 
 thing new in this; the practice of 
 calling washerwomen was not novel; 
 they were called in the Douglas plot; 
 rendered wise, however, by experience, 
 no attempt was made to bring them 
 forward on the present occasion. Shall 
 I be told that there was any hastening 
 in swearing the w itnesses ? I do not 
 say that it is in my power to contradict 
 all the evidence rliat has been given; 
 but my learned friends should not have 
 called upon me for this. I contend, 
 that as the case now stands, I am not 
 bound to call witnesses ; and I submit 
 that there is no necessity for it. If 
 your lordships believe what has been 
 stated by the witnesses against her 
 Majesty, there is proof positive of adul- 
 tery. No case of the kind could be 
 proved more fully than this has been, 
 if you credit the statements tliat have 
 been made. If you believe Sacchi, 
 Bergami has been seen twice going 
 into the bed-room of the Princess, and 
 not returning. If you believe him, and 
 some more of the witntiscs, in all they 
 
218 
 
 DEFENCE OF TilE QUEEV. 
 
 have sworn to, she is not only guilty of 
 tlie crime alleged agaiusther in the bill, 
 but she is as bad even as Messalina. 
 If, however, they are not worthy of cre- 
 dit — if they have sworn to these cir- 
 cumstances, knowing thtm to be false, 
 we ninsl conclude them to be more vile 
 than those jacobins who, in the pro- 
 gress of the French revolution, at- 
 temptiid to atfix so unnatural a charge 
 upon Marie Antoinette. I have heard 
 it observed, that, without touching on 
 the important part of the charge, the 
 credit of the witnesses may be ruined, 
 by convicting them of falsehood in un- 
 important particulars. If, however, I 
 am to set up witnesses, my confirma- 
 tion of innocence should extend to the 
 crime itself, and not be confined to tri- 
 vial circumstances. Without calling 
 evidence, I apprehend, it would be 
 quite sufficient for my case to show, 
 that I here are circumstances in the evi- 
 dence for the bill which take away cre- 
 dibility from the whole of the facts that 
 have been sworn to. If one part of the 
 charge should not only not be proved,but 
 be found utterly inconsistent with facts 
 detailed in evidence — if itshould appear 
 that falsehood has been sworn to in tri- 
 vial circumstances — this I think will 
 be sufficient to invalidate the whole of 
 the testimony. If in a case like this, 
 it should appear that falsehood was 
 stated by any witness, and that, not- 
 withstanding, the rest of his testimony 
 is to be believed, what chance of 
 escape will there ever again be from 
 the grasp of unprincipled conspiracy r 
 The tiling would be ditferent if two 
 witnesses had been called to swear 
 to any one fact. This is what forms 
 the safe-guard of every man, and with- 
 out it !io person can be protected from 
 tlie machinations of a conspivator. 
 Let me sjippose that any one of your 
 .lordships were to fall into what I would 
 consider as the greatest misfortune that 
 could happen to any man, either in an 
 humble or an elevated spht- re of life — 
 that you should be charged with a crime, 
 at the bare thought of which every feel- 
 ing re vol ts,and human nature is shocked 
 — it might happen to the best and the 
 most vli'tuous of men. Suppose one of 
 your lordships to be charged with t>.e 
 commission of an infamous crime. The 
 fairest reputation, when attacked in 
 this manner, cannot possibly escape but 
 in one way. It is not possible to over- 
 turn the charge by contending testi 
 
 inory, because the plotter, on such 
 
 occasions, takes care, that there Is: only 
 one who can swear— he selects, for ex- 
 ample, the time and place in which any 
 any of your lordships may be found 
 alone. Von may be in the place at the 
 time mentioned. A direct contradic- 
 tion under such circumstances is im- 
 possible. What does the court do be- 
 fore whom sucli a case is brought? 
 They will direct the acquittal of the 
 person accused, if the most triHiivg 
 falsehood, and in the most unimportant 
 particular should be detected in the 
 evidence of the base informer. I call 
 upon your lordships now to act upon the 
 same principle. I ask only this protec- 
 tion for her Majesty ^ — a protection 
 which justice and innocence demand. 
 Much has been said of the situation of 
 Bergami previous to his entering the 
 service of the Queen: it has been said 
 that this circumstance alone, contrasted 
 with the sphere of life in which he now 
 moves, is quite sufficient to excite sus- 
 picion. My lords, it cannot be denied 
 that he has been elevated to a situa- 
 tion by his illustrious mistress, far above 
 that in which he formerly moved, and 
 sorry I should be, indeed, if, in thi* 
 country, such a circumstance could lay 
 a foundation for a serious charge. If 
 raising a meritorious servant to a place 
 of trust, was to be insinuated as matter 
 of criminality, God forbid ! we should 
 ever see the day when all stations may 
 not be open to all men according to 
 their merits. I beg, ho we ver,to remind 
 your lordships, that the rapidity of his 
 promotion was quite overstated. The 
 manner of it shews, that he earned it 
 gradually by the faithfulness of his cha- 
 racter and the propriety of his con- 
 duct, and it tends also to shew the little 
 credit that is to be given to some part 
 of the evidence. Dumont stated, if 
 she is to be believed, that, in the short 
 space of three weeks after he was taken 
 into service, the Princess promoted him 
 to her bed ; yet after this he still con- 
 tinued to act as courier ; he dined with 
 the servants at Genoa, and only once 
 sat at the Princess's table by accidents 
 It was only towards the close of tlue 
 period immediately previous to their 
 voyage, that he was admitted to her 
 table. He proceeded by slow degrees 
 in the service of the Queen, travelling 
 first on horseback as courier, then in a 
 carriage by himself, and subsequently 
 made chamberlain. This is utterly in- 
 consistent, if you suppose the Queen to 
 be that insane, infatuated woman, she 
 
MR. BROUGHAM. 
 
 219 
 
 h:x> hoen ilt serihed. Would she, if tluis 
 \iolent)y attached, hUow her paramour 
 to reiuain even a day in a degrading 
 situation. This does not reseinhle tlie 
 nianner in \\hirh love usually rewards 
 the object on whom it is lixed. It ra- 
 ther resembles the slow progress by 
 which merit struggles through ditficiil- 
 ties to the place it is worthy of. Ber- 
 gami was no common man, but a per- 
 son of merit. His origin was not low, 
 for his father possessed a moderate 
 property in the north of Italy. He got 
 into difficulties, like many Italian gen- 
 tlemen, and soon sold his estate to pay 
 his father's debts. He was certainly 
 reduced, but still a reduced gentleman, 
 and recognized as such in General Pi- 
 no's service, for he dined at his table 
 during the Spanish campaign. The 
 General respected him, and he was uni- 
 versally esteemed by all those whom he 
 served. They encouraged him to hope 
 for better things, as knowing his for- 
 mer situation and his present merit. 
 It was an Austrian nobleman who pro- 
 posed him as a courier in the service 
 of the Queen, and he was hired by the 
 chamberlain without her Majesty's 
 knowledge. This nobleman expressed 
 a hope that he would be promoted as 
 he had seer^etter days. It was almost 
 a coMdition of his engagement that he 
 shoidd go as a courier, and be subse- 
 quently raised to a better station, if he 
 rendered himself worthy of it. My 
 
 lords, I do not dwell upon this as an 
 important circumstance. 1 do not 
 think it is material to the defence. I 
 think I have already disposed of the 
 case by the comments I have made upon 
 the evidence. I thought it necessary, 
 however, to dwell on the circumstance, 
 as it had been a common topic of conver- 
 sation. If her Majesty had been charged 
 with secret guilt, a gainst which it is not 
 easy to provide defence — had she been 
 charged with what could hav€ fallen un- 
 der the observation of those with whom 
 she could have associated as fiiends 
 or equals — with any improper courses 
 in public intercourse, I could have 
 stood upon high ground indeed. I 
 could have easily refuted every insi- 
 nuation of this kind, to whatever pe- 
 riod of her life it might have been at- 
 tached — whether before she visited this 
 country, or while she continued in it. I 
 hold in my hand a testimonial, written 
 by his late Majesty, which cannot be 
 read without the deepest feelings of 
 sorrow and respect for his character. 
 It proves the light in which he viewed 
 her at that time, and whom, both then, 
 and ever after, he loved with a more 
 tender recollectien than any of the rest 
 of her family. The plainness, the 
 honesty, intelligence, and manly sense 
 of this note, written in 1804, could 
 not be sufficiently admired : it is 
 i thus — 
 
 *' Windsor Castle, Nov. 13, 1804. 
 " My dearest Daughter-in-law and Niece, 
 " Yesterday, I and the rest of my family had an interview with the Prince 
 of Wales at Kew: care was taken on ail sides to avoid all subjects of alter- 
 cation, or explanation; consequently, the conversation was neither instructive 
 nor entertaining: but it leaves the Prince ol' Wales in a situation to show, 
 whether his desire to return to his family is only verbal or real, which time 
 alone can show. I am not idle in my endeavours to make inquiries that may 
 enable me to communicate some plan for the advantage of the dear child. 
 You and I with so much reason must interest ourselves ; and its effecting my 
 having the happiness of living with you, is no small incentive to my forming 
 some idea on the subject, but you may depend upon their not being decided 
 upon without your thorough and cordial concurrence; for your authority as 
 mother, it is my object to support. Believe me at all times, my dearest 
 daughter-in-law and niece, your most affectionate father-in law and uncle, 
 
 " GEORGE R. ' 
 
 This was the opinion, and these were the sentiments, of a man not ignorant of 
 the rules of society, or deficient in his knowledge of the human heart. Here 
 Lc shewed all the anxiety of a tender and affectionate parent for the happiness 
 and welfare of a child, and evinced all those sentiments in favour of the 
 interests of the Princess of Wales, which the consciousness alone of the 
 purity of her conduct, and the extent of her merits, could have excited. I 
 luight now read to your lordships a letter from his illustrious successor, not 
 in the same tone, not indicative of the same regard — but by no means indi- 
 
220 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 cative of any want of confidence, or any desire to trammel his Royal Consort 
 in that course of life which her own feelings might suggest. I allude to that 
 letter which has been so often before your lordships in other shapes, and 
 ■which I do not think necessary now to repeat. In that letter lie expressed 
 his wish that they should live apart. Their inclinations, he j'aid,«were not 
 in their power, and their mutual happiness wouhl be best consulted by their liv- 
 ing asunder, under any plan which might seem most ccndiicive to their comforts. 
 There was no indication that her conduct should be made a subject of 
 observation, or that her seclusion should be interrupted by the rigour of a 
 scrutinizing agency — such as had brought the present Bill of Pains and- 
 Penalties into life. (A cry of " Read the Letter," from the ministerial 
 benches.) 
 Mr. Brougham immediately read the following letter :— 
 
 " Madam—As Lord Cholmondely informs me' that you wish I would define, 
 in writing, the terms upon which we are to live, I shall endeavour to explain 
 myself upon that head with as mHch clearness, and with as much propriety, 
 as the nature of the subject will admit. Our inclinations are not in our 
 j)0W(r; nor should either of us be held answerable for the other, because 
 nature has not made us suitable to each other. Tranquil and comfortable 
 society is, however, in our power; let our intercourse, therefore, be restricted 
 to that; and I will distinctly subscribe to the condition which you required 
 through Lady Cholmondely, that, even in the event of any accident happening 
 to njy daughter, which, I trust Providence will in its mercy avert, I shall 
 not infringe the terms of the restriction, by proposing, at any period, a con- 
 nection of a more particular nature. I shall now finally close this disagreeable 
 correspondence; trusting that, as we have completely explained ourselves 
 to each other, the rest of our lives will be passed in uninterrupted tranquillity. 
 I am, Madam, with great truth, very sincerely your's. 
 
 (Signed) ' " GEORGE P." 
 
 My lords, — I do not mean to call this, 
 as it has been termed by others, a 
 letter of licence ; but I thinlc that such 
 an epistle must make it a matter of 
 natural wonder to flie minds of all by 
 "whom it has been heard, to find that 
 ever after the individual by whom it 
 had been received should have been 
 made the object of a more especial 
 ■watchfulness, and should have been 
 exposed to an encreased rigour of 
 observation. Such, however, nr^ lords, 
 iy the state of this case ; and it is under 
 these circumstances that her Majesty 
 is now unexpectedly dragged to your 
 bar. The secret agency by which she 
 has been haunted, at length effected 
 the first step towards her destruction ; 
 but, thank God! their machinations 
 must hrre cease. The innocence, and 
 the purity of my illustrious client has 
 been assailed, but I trust with con- 
 fideiK-e, that the base efforts of her 
 calujuniators will recoil upon them- 
 selves. Your lordships have atten- 
 tively regarded the evidence as it has 
 been subiniited to your notice. You 
 have no doubt watched the character 
 of the witnesses, and I am satisfied 
 you will agree with me, that not one 
 of those witnesses is entitled to the 
 
 slightest credit. No single fact of tlie 
 heinous charges which have been made 
 has been supported by a single indi- 
 vidual entitled to credit. Good wit- 
 nesses were within the reach of her 
 Majesty's accusers, persons entitled to 
 confidence and belief; but these had 
 been studiously avoided. The plot 
 has been discovered by the means, of 
 those principles which invariably ap- 
 ply to such case§. Ii has been exposed 
 to the open glare of day, by the case 
 breakins; down in some of those parts, 
 which, however ingeniously got up as 
 a whole, were left exposed to attack. 
 The great features of the plan have 
 been preserved with a studious regard 
 to ultimate success ; but some of the 
 minor fortifications, from a belief that 
 their weakness would not be dis- 
 covered, were left unprotected. It 
 is by this means that justice has tri- 
 umphed — it is by such trifles that the 
 weightiest and most serious accusations 
 have, even after having received the 
 support of great and good men, been 
 laid prostrate. I shall be excused by 
 your lordships for q-uoting an authority 
 from Scripture, in support of this 
 proposition. The passage to which 1 
 allude, recites a case in which the 
 
WR. BROUOHAM. 
 
 22> 
 
 judges of that day, the oiders, vere 
 arraigned against llie act:use«l — and 
 in which when they were on the eve 
 of pronouncing an unjnst judgment, 
 with the full persuasion of its justice, 
 the victim was rescued from the gripe 
 of destruction which was about to 
 grasp him, by the simple circwmstance 
 of a contradiction respecting a tama 
 risk tree. Such had been the case in 
 the present instance. Majcchi, Du 
 mont, Sacchi, and all the other herd 
 of witnesses, who had been called, 
 deposed with unblushing confidence, 
 and with an undeviatjng accuracy to 
 all the main features of the ciarges, 
 \Fhich it was their object, as weH as 
 their interest, to sustain, and mi^ht 
 have eventually succeeded, but for 
 the aid and interposition of that Di- 
 vine Providence which wills not that 
 the guilty shall triumph. When such 
 a case as this is before you — when 
 such evidence is brought to support 
 it, can you hesitate as to the opinion 
 which it becomes your bounden duty 
 to form? Can you, upon evidence 
 which would be inadequate to prove 
 the most trifling debt — which would 
 be too impotent to deprive a subject 
 of the commonest civil right — which 
 would be rejected in the most ordinary 
 court of justice as insufficient to 
 establish the lowest offence — can you, 
 i say, upon such scandalous and bare- 
 faced perjury, in this, the highest 
 court which is known to the law of 
 the land, entertain a charge so mon- 
 strous as that which has for its object 
 the ruin of the honour of an English 
 Queen? What would be said by the 
 people of England — what would be 
 9aid by the world at large — if, upon 
 this species of proof, acting, as you 
 do, as judges and legislators, you were 
 to pass a bill, which must for ever 
 debase and degrade an injured, an 
 innocent woman ? 
 
 My lords, — I pray your lordships to 
 pause, standing as you do on the brink 
 of a precipice, before you form your 
 judgment— a judgment which, if pro- 
 nonnced in favour of the bill now 
 under your lordships' consideration, 
 ^vlll fail in its object, and will return 
 upon those who give it. Save the 
 country, my lords, from the horrors 
 of such an occurrence; save your- 
 selves from the consequences of an 
 event by which you would risk the 
 situation you hold in that country of 
 which you are the ornament, but in 
 
 which you would cea'C to flourish if 
 no ionyer served by the people. l..ike 
 the blossom torn from its parent stem, 
 and dragged from the root by which 
 its beauties were sustained, once de- 
 prived of the confidence, and esteem, 
 and support of your fellow men, you 
 must wither and decay. Ihen, my 
 lords, I say, save thai country, that 
 you may continue to adorn it — save 
 the crown, the people, and the aristo- 
 cracy — shake not the altar itself, which 
 wourd not be less endangered than 
 its kindred throne. Your lordships 
 willed — the King willed that the 
 Queen of these realms should be left 
 without the solemn service of the 
 church. In the absence of this so- 
 lemnity, she sustained no loss, for 
 she still enjoyed the heartfelt prayers 
 of the people. Her Majesty wants 
 not my prayers — but I now ardently 
 and sincerely supplicate the Ihrone 
 of Grace, that mt rcy may be poured 
 down on the people in a larger pro- 
 portion than their rulers des<rve, and 
 that your hearts may be turned to- 
 wards justice." 
 
 The learned gentleman concluded 
 his eloquent and powerful speech at 
 half-past twelve o'clock. It had evi- 
 dently made a strong impression on 
 the House, and for some tmie the 
 noble lords were occupied in remark- 
 ing on its tendency. Several peers 
 quitted the house, and were seen in 
 consultation in the passages. The 
 counsel on both sides also retired to 
 obtain refreshments. 
 
 At one o'clock Mr. Williams ad- 
 vanced to the bar, and was about to 
 address their lordships, when 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR inter- 
 posed. He remarked, that as Mr. Wil- 
 liams was about to address the house., 
 as second counsel for the Queen, it was 
 his duty to remind their lordships, that 
 it was at their option whether to 
 permit the course contemplated by 
 him to be pursued or not ; but he 
 appr«>liended the house would concur 
 with him, that in so important a case, 
 their discretion would be best exer- 
 cised by permitting it (hear). 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS then came forward 
 to the bar. He could, he said, assure 
 their lordshius that no man could feeli 
 more sincerely, on this occasion, thaii 
 he did, the various disadvantages he 
 had to encounter; no man could po.s- 
 sibly be more aware than he was of 
 the pressing difficulties under which 
 
n 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUJUEX. 
 
 Ijc labonred, when he was about to 
 address their lordships on this most 
 momentous qnejstion. He alluded not 
 to the incidental circumstance, that 
 it remained somewhat in doubt whether 
 the privjlefje or the rijdit to speak 
 might be allowed to him at all (a cir- 
 cumstance, neverlheiess, not wholly 
 unimportant with respect to a due 
 preparation for the occasion) — in that 
 did he now advert to the severe de 
 mand which he should be compelled 
 to make on their lordships' patience — 
 a demand, perhaps, the more severe, 
 because it was in some degree \ni- 
 cxpected ; but he adverted to his fate 
 or fortune, or whatsoever else it might 
 be termed, which brought him next in 
 succession to the consideration of a 
 subject, which he would not say had 
 been discussed, but which had been 
 dissected, torn in parts, and laid before 
 their lordships, quivering, writhing, 
 and trembling, by the marvellous 
 machinery which his learned friend 
 brought to bear on this and en every 
 question. In treating this subject he 
 wonld cast behind him every unfair con- 
 sideration, and having expressed this 
 sentiment, he could at once he hoped 
 be i>elieved, vrhen he said that he de- 
 precated most decidedly any notion 
 that he stood forward from a spirit of 
 competition. The present was a case 
 marked by this distinguishing feature, 
 beyond any other that had hitherto 
 occurred, from the commencement of 
 the world to the present hour, namely, 
 that it presented to the mind nothing 
 but pure and unmixed evil, without 
 the sliij;htcst portion of benefit. Hi- 
 learned friend had evinced an enlarged 
 intellect to comprehend, a power to 
 express, a courage to meet all diffi- 
 culties, a varying and shifting attitude, 
 sviited to every change in this case, in 
 the course of his honourable and glori- 
 ous exertions — exertions, the force of 
 ivhich was then alive in the memory, 
 in the judgment, and in the feelings of 
 that house. It now became his otfice, 
 after the labours of his learned friend, 
 to collect the scattered remnants, 
 which, in the course of the proceedings 
 On this biil, might liave been over- 
 looked or left behind, in order to fill 
 up that measure of condemnation, 
 tvhich, with all his henrt he hoped, 
 and in his conscience be believed, was 
 notremote or distant, but now awaited 
 this prosecution, though it was the 
 third which had been directed against 
 bis royal mistress the Queen. He 
 
 would ask their lordships, who were 
 the parties in this case? That surely 
 was not an immaterial cont'ideration, 
 before he proceeded to any thing else. 
 He was aware that it had bceii with 
 difficulty that they had attamed a 
 certain degree of knowledge — that 
 some explanation had been allowed 
 with respect to the party to whom her 
 Majesty's counsel were opposed. They 
 originally knew that they were op- 
 posed to some person or other, and the 
 power was not less formidable for 
 being imperfectly divulged. But, not 
 to speak disrespectfully of the name 
 of his Majesty the King — that name 
 which in itself was '• a tower of 
 strength" — a name which, nevertheless, 
 stood in the front of this bill, it was 
 now past speculation — it was now no 
 longer a matter of doubt who the pro- 
 secutor was. On the one side, their 
 lordships saw arrayed before them 
 all the weight of the crown — power, 
 authority, wealth, influence — (that in- 
 fluence from whence a large portion 
 of this evidence was derived); and, 
 on the other, her Majesty the Queen, 
 borne down by a series of harsh treat- 
 ment, to which allusion had already 
 been made, (and on which he would 
 say no more at present,) •' shorn of 
 her beams,*' deprived of her honours— 
 a Queen, who, with reference to this 
 prosecution, had, by the vicissitudes 
 of fate, by the clmnges of fortune, by 
 the death of some persons, by the ca- 
 suistry of office in others, been deprived 
 of the most powerful, the most active, 
 and the most zealous of her defenders. 
 It was necessary, with respect to this 
 view of the case, if their lordships 
 wished to allow the free and fair 
 operation of their minds, that they 
 should combat strongly against any 
 thing like the ascendancy of power on 
 the one hand, opposed as it was to 
 the helplessness, the desertion, the 
 want of friends, and the absence of 
 protectors, which appeared on the 
 other. They were told, by a wi«e 
 people, to whom reference was fre- 
 quently made, and not without reason, 
 that this caution, with respect to the 
 paramount authority of the accuser, 
 ought to be strictly and vigilantly ex- 
 ercised ; because, if it were not, that 
 authority might be productive of 
 much abuse:—" Semper in hac ci- 
 vitate (said Cicero), nimis magnis 
 accusatorum opibus ct populus uni- 
 versus et sapieutes, ac multum in 
 posterum prospicientes judiees resti- 
 
MR. WILLIAMS. 
 
 223 
 
 ternnt" — a testimony, which, at tho 
 outset, he voiilil tak<" occasion to no- 
 tire as rmiaikable on this ground, that 
 it showed the opinion of the universal 
 people of Rome, and of the wise and 
 provident judjjes, to be one an<l the 
 same. Cicero went on thus — "Nolo 
 accusator in judicium potentium afferat, 
 Qou vim majoreni uliquam, non aucto- 
 ritatem exceMenteni, non n iniari gra- 
 tiani; valeant hare omnia ad salutem 
 innoccntiuni, ad opem impo4entiura, 
 ad auxiliiim calaniitosornm; in pcriculo 
 vro, et in pernicie civium ; lepiidicn- 
 tur." Their lordships ouyht, -and he 
 doubted not would, exert a powerful 
 caution, and keep iheir minds perfectly 
 * clear from any undue bias, in the 
 course of this conflict, in oider that 
 strict, impartial, and equal justice 
 niiijht be awarded to the parties. 
 There was another topic to which he 
 would take leave to allude. He would 
 not waste their lordships' time by stat- 
 insf, after the many discussions they 
 had heard on the subject, the whole 
 course of proceedings adopted in the 
 courts below; but he would observe, 
 that it was an invariable and sacred 
 rule iu those proceedings, that on the 
 evidence iu the case, and on the evi- 
 dence only, was the judgment to be 
 formed. In this ca'-e, aUo, he trnsted 
 that no previons opinion — that no pre- 
 conception from, whatsoever quarter 
 it might be derived — that no rumour, 
 however frequent it might be (and, for 
 any tiling he knew to the contrary, rn- 
 inour.s might have been frequently re- 
 peated) — should be sutfered to inter- 
 fere with the case ; but that the evi- 
 deiK^e, and nothing but the evidence, 
 would Jje the rule and criterion of 
 every noble lord who heard him in 
 deciding on thio most important ques- 
 tion. Without this sentiment pre- 
 vailed, no longer conld there be any 
 chance for the party accused ; without 
 that feeling existed, he knew not by 
 vrliat secret power — he knew not by 
 ■what doubtful means — he knew not by 
 "wbat bidden springs — lie knew not by 
 %hat obscure raotives,conclusions might 
 bearrivedat,andacted on. Butthishe 
 Itiiew, that, except by an open, a pub- 
 lic, a fair, and an equal examination 
 of evidence on both sides, justice could 
 not be administered. While fie was 
 on this subject he wished to call their 
 lordships' attention to another part of 
 tbe case, not altogether unconnected 
 with it. How did hvr Majesty the 
 
 Queen stand at present ? She stood 
 under those difficulties of defence which 
 he had ventured to urse— placed in the 
 midst of proceedings which had not the 
 most remote analogy to those carried 
 on at any other tribunal. Sh^ was 
 most critically situated, and had to sur- 
 mount a variety of difficulties, which, 
 in the case of no individual that stood 
 at the bar of any other tribunal in 
 England, ever had been, or ever could 
 be encountered, while the law remain- 
 ed the same as it was at present. Let 
 their lordships examine the question j 
 and, though the subject was not new, 
 he was sure he should stand cxcoscd 
 (thinking, as he did, that it was a mat- 
 ter which pervaded the whole cause) 
 if he called their attention to the man- 
 ner in which the evidence was brought 
 forward. It was intimately connected 
 with the defence, and went, in fact, to 
 the bottom of the whole proceeding. 
 Whether he was or was not founded in 
 the remarks he was about to make, it 
 would be for their lordships to decide. 
 Was there any instance, he would ask, 
 in the history of the law of England, in 
 which a party accueed had been kept 
 in ignorance, nntd the time of trial, oif 
 the precise nature of the charges that 
 were to be preferred — of the time, 
 place, and ciicnmstances, under whici> 
 the accusation was made ? He wonki 
 say, fearlessly, that there was none. 
 Let them, first of all, take the nvore 
 formal, or technical, part of the instrnc- 
 tion, if he might use the term, witU 
 respect to the party prosecuted. In 
 the first instance, the indictment mv.st 
 specify a particular day and plac^ 
 He was aware that it soraetinu^ covtr- 
 ed a considerable portionof time ; bxit^ 
 he would ap))eal to every itarued 
 judge who heard him, if a crime were 
 committed on the first of January — if 
 a robbery were then perpetrated, or a 
 house were broken open — whelhernn 
 individual would be allowed, for the 
 mere Icvo of fiction, from a vicious 
 love of contradiction, to charge the 
 offence as having been committed on 
 the Ist of June? No^ the party was 
 informed of the time when, and tfce 
 place where, the matter advanced 
 airainst him as an otfence was <'.om- 
 mitted, as nearly as it could po^siuW 
 be ascertained. Was that all? Had 
 not the party accused been previojwly 
 committed? Must he not have beea 
 committed by some mag strata of ike 
 county? aijd, being »ocoumulted,mcst 
 
224 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 there not appear, on the face of the 
 writ, a description of the ofiVncc? — In 
 ninety-nine cases out of one Iiundred 
 — in nine hundred and ninety-nine, he 
 might say, out of one thousand, a pre- 
 vious examination, a previous hearing 
 took place in the presence of the ac- 
 cused and of the witnesses adduced 
 against him ; and by means of that pre- 
 vious inquiry he obtained a distinct 
 knowledge of the time and place, as 
 well as of the persons to be brought 
 forward in support of the charge. If 
 it were a wicked fabrication, if it were 
 a gross conspiracy to oppress the ac- 
 cused, he must at least have a specifi- 
 cation of time and place, together with 
 a knowledge of some of the witnesses 
 who were to sustain the case against 
 him. Not without reason, therefore, 
 did the Queen complain that the crime 
 charged against her was extended over 
 three fourths of the globe, without any 
 particular specification of time, but a 
 mere general statement, that it had 
 occurred in the course of six years, 
 and without any knowledge of the wit- 
 nesses until they came before their 
 lordships. Wei!, in his judgment, might 
 the Queen complain that she came to 
 her trial under complicated disadvan- 
 tages — disadvantages that would not 
 attend the trial of any other individual 
 whatsoever, no matter what was the 
 subject of accusation, within the realm 
 of England, lie begged leave to illus- 
 trate this fact, and he would put the 
 case to every noble lord who heard 
 him, and particularly to those who 
 were conversant injudicial matters : — 
 Suppose a charge of felony, of murder, 
 of burglary, or of robbery, to be made 
 against an individual ; and suppose it 
 to be committed on any assignable day ; 
 the party accused was committed to 
 prison, and the trial came on. Sup- 
 pose it was a circumstantial case, and 
 evidence was adduced in support of it 
 from various suspected quarters, while 
 no testimony of a contrary nature was 
 brought forward to oppose it. He 
 would admit it to be a case of such 
 suspicion, that the prudence of the 
 judge, and the conscientious feeling of 
 the jury could not shake off: what 
 w^ould then be the situation of the ac- 
 cused party ? Why the learned Judge 
 would say, ''If this suspicion that 
 hangs round the prisoner be covifaund- 
 ed — if It be really true that what looks 
 like guilt ought not to attach to this 
 individual — why is he silent? Why 
 
 does he not produce his exculpatory 
 proof? The thing was fresh ; the 
 proper time and opportunity for de- 
 fence allowed, and yet he has failed to 
 prepare himself." Reasoning thus, the 
 conclusion was irresistible ; and a man 
 might be convicted of any crime under 
 such circumstances. But he would 
 contrast this with a case that bore 
 seme similarity to the present. What 
 if the individual accused was supposed 
 to have committed the offence six 
 years before? Would any learned 
 judge, consistent with common sense — 
 on which the law was founded — con- 
 demn the individual because he could 
 not procure evidence, after such a 
 lapse of time — when witnesses might 
 have died — when memory might have 
 failed — when difficulties might liave in- 
 terposed, which at an earlier period 
 had no existence? No, on the con- 
 trary, this would he the language 
 which the judge would hold:—" Why 
 was not this charge brought earlier? 
 What is the reason of this delay ? Why 
 has this accusation slumbered? Do 
 you expect a miracle from the accused? 
 Do you now expect the minds of in- 
 dividuals to be so alive on this subject, 
 as to recollect persons, places, and 
 events, which must by this time have 
 faded from their memory r" Such 
 would be the language of the judge. 
 The remoteness of the period — the 
 lateness of the charge, to which, if an- 
 swer could be given, that answer should 
 long before have been called for — 
 those circumstances must be consider- 
 ed as the salvation and deliverance of 
 the accused, for large and liberal al- 
 lowance was always made for those 
 who were thus situated. When a 
 charge was speedily brought, powerful 
 means often arose to def(?at it, and 
 those means might, on the moment, 
 be made available. But, after a lapse 
 of years, the facility by which an accu- 
 sation could be met became narrowed 
 and contr;.i;ted. If the attack were 
 made at the time when the offence 
 was alleg^ed to have been committed, 
 the accused party could perhaps an? 
 swer it; though, when along period 
 had elapsed, it might not be in his 
 power to do so. Why were these pre- 
 liminary remarks made ? Because he 
 conceived the nature of the case re- 
 quired them, however little their lord- 
 ships might be iniluenced by them. 
 Petitions had been presented to their 
 lordships, calling on them to grant to 
 
MR. WILLIAMS. 
 
 225 
 
 the Queen something like that which 
 every subject of the realm was entitled 
 to by due course of law. To the wis- 
 dom of their lordships it had, however, 
 seemed meet to refuse those several 
 requests. He now demanded of their 
 lordships respectfully, but, in pursu- 
 ance of his duty, firmly and boldly, if 
 they would pursue the plain and direct 
 course of justic«, to extend to the 
 Queen the full advantage which she 
 ought to derive from the delay that 
 had taken place. That advantage con- 
 sisted in what he would now state ; 
 they would expect the evidence to be 
 clear, consistent, and precise. Now, 
 in proportion as this charge had been 
 delayed, their lordships would con- 
 sider, that by this very delay a diffi- 
 culty was imposed on the Queen, 
 which, while human nature remained 
 as it was at present constituted, must 
 necessarily exist, namely, tl)at wit- 
 nesses might have died, and that the 
 recollection of time, place, and cir- 
 cumstances, must ill the course of years 
 be impaired. If the charge had been 
 preferred about the time when the 
 offence was said to have occurred, it 
 might have admitted of a ready an- 
 swer, though it might not admit of 
 such an answer now. How then was 
 her Majesty to be defended before 
 their lordships ? By their lordships 
 exercising a vigilant controul over the 
 prosecuting party, in proportion to the 
 hardships which were visited on the 
 Queen. She was surrounded with dif- 
 ficulties, and, in proportion as those 
 difficulties were great, should their 
 lordships, in hearing her case, be vigi- 
 lant, indulgent, and forbearing, think- 
 ing it enough if a substantial answer 
 were given : for he would boldly say, 
 that to answer the accusation point by 
 point would be a miracle. He would 
 say, that unless the caution which he 
 had recommended to their lordships 
 were adopted in examining the ad 
 verse case, and unless they extended 
 the utmost indulgence to her Majesty, 
 they never could hope to satisfy the 
 judgment of the country. They ought 
 to take special care, if that took place, 
 which God, for the safety of this king- 
 dom, avert! if her Majesty should be 
 condemned, that it should not be by 
 means, by the operation of which no 
 individual in the history of this country 
 had ever suffered in his life or liberty, 
 in his character or his fortune ! These 
 preliminary remarks were well suited 
 29 
 
 to that temper of mind which he called 
 upon their lordships, not as a matter of 
 favour, but as a matter of right, to ex- 
 hibit in their examination of the adverse 
 case, and in their preparation for that 
 which would be offered in reply to it 
 by the accused party. In speaking of 
 the whole case, and before he came to 
 examine it in detail, it was impossible 
 not to see, and, seeing, not to admit, 
 that the supposition which had been 
 made by his learned friend, "the Queen's 
 Attorney-General, who haJ, indeed, 
 anticipated the whole of the case, was 
 completely substantiated by a perusal 
 of evidence — namely, that the whole 
 case on the adverse side was founded 
 and bottomed in perjury. That was a 
 point which, in his view of it, could not 
 be denied. However fearful the con- 
 clusion excited in their lordships' minds 
 might be, on finding that distinct per- 
 jury been committed before them, was 
 it entirely new in the history of the 
 judicial proceedings of this country — 
 aye, and of the witnesses of this coun- 
 try too — to find a set of persons giving 
 a series of testimony relative to minute 
 details and trivial circumstances, of 
 whom it was as clear, at the conclusion 
 of the case, that every one had perjured 
 liimself, as it then was that he was 
 speaking at their lordships' bar ? Was 
 the present case wholly without a mo- 
 tive to produce the perpetration of 
 similar guilt? Had they never heard in 
 the history of their country of indivi- 
 duals — he would notsay having been got 
 up,but— presenting themselves as volun- 
 teers for the commission of perjury? 
 Was it an unheard of circumstance that 
 low-bred persons should have a disposi- 
 tion to insult and trample upon their su- 
 periors who had fallen from power, or 
 who at least were in obloquy with those 
 that were in power ? Was it only in an- 
 cient Rome that a disposition existed to 
 triumph over the prostrate fortunes of 
 illustrious individuals? Was it only in 
 ancient Rome that the rejected fa- 
 vourite of Caesar was liable to the taunts 
 and ignominies of the vulgar? Was it 
 only there that the cry was raised — 
 
 " Cuiramus praecipites 
 
 "DumjacetinripOjCalcemusCaesaris 
 hostem ?'' 
 
 Were not their lordships aware that 
 that very enemy of Caesar, who was 
 thus to be spurned and trampled upon, 
 had been but that previous moment 
 living in the midst of imperial favour.^ 
 
226 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 Did not they recollect that the satirist 
 indignantly asked — 
 
 " Quo cecidit sub crimine ? quisnam 
 
 "Delator? quibusindicusP quo teste?" 
 
 Did Bot they recollect that he added — 
 ** Nil horum : verbosa et grandis 
 
 epistola venit 
 " A Capreis ?" 
 Or, in other words, that a large and 
 swollen green bag came over from 
 Milan? .So that it was not quite un- 
 foreseen that persons might be found, 
 who, either from a love of power, 
 or from a desire to worship the 
 rising sun, and from their own base, 
 and ignoble, degraded natures, might 
 be lead to increase the misery of tlie 
 distressed, and heighten by calumny 
 the anguish of the fallen. But was 
 there no other motive, besides those 
 which he had just enumerated, that 
 might be attributed to the witnes- 
 ses produced against his illustrious 
 client? Was there nothing in their evi- 
 dence calculated to show that a belief 
 existed — was there nothing in the Milan 
 commission itself caleulated to excite 
 such belief among llie inhabitants of 
 Italy, that they would not go unre- 
 warded if they came forward with tes- 
 timony against a Princess who had 
 before been the object of calumny and 
 iiiSult? He begged leave also to impress 
 iiponthe recollection of their lordships, 
 that not only the government of ihis 
 country, but also the government of 
 foreign countries, had been concerned 
 in getting up the prosecution against 
 her Majesty. He did not make this 
 assertion upon idle grounds : it had 
 been proved to them in evidence ; and, 
 as one instance was more decisive than 
 a thousand unmeaning generalities, he 
 would refer them to the printed mi- 
 nutes. He would refer them to the 
 evidence of Barbara Kress, in which 
 they would find a brace of ambassadors 
 and a brace of ministers engaged in the 
 worthy and reputable purpose of pack- 
 ing up and packing otfa whole cargo of 
 those valuable commoditeis whicli had 
 been recently landed on the shores of 
 this free country. The names of those 
 ministers were mentioned in the evi- 
 dence: they were representing, or, he 
 should rather say, that they were mis- 
 representiner, states which, as they were 
 inferior to England, were in some de- 
 gree under its controul ; and yet they 
 did not hesitate to descend to the very 
 honourable, the \-ery dignified, and the 
 
 very well concerted plan of getting up 
 witnesses against her Majesty. He 
 felt himself bound to lay these facts be- 
 fore their lordships, and to call their 
 attention^to the conduct of the ministers 
 Berstett, Reden, Grimm, and Grilling, 
 as detailed by Kress; for by so duing 
 their lordships would see that some- 
 thing very like an undue influence had 
 been exerted to enforce the attend- 
 ance of witnesses against her Majesty. 
 There was also another subject which 
 he wished to bring under the notice of 
 their lordships — he meant the manner 
 in which the witnesses for the prosecu- 
 tion had been remunerated. Might he 
 be allowed to ask, whether the cross- 
 examination of the witnesses had been 
 conducted by her Majesty's counsel 
 with a forgetfulness of that point, or 
 whether allusion had not been made to 
 it so often by them, as almost to have 
 excited the disgust of their lordships? 
 Had they not put questions relative to 
 the manner in which they were to be 
 remunerated to every witness who had 
 been called ? and had there been an 
 instance of any witness arknowledging 
 the receipt of money afier the effect of 
 the excessive payments to the captain 
 and mate of the polacca had been dis- 
 covered? Was nut that very circum- 
 stance even more condemnatory of the 
 case than the excessive payments which 
 had been made to ihe other witnesses? 
 There had been no desire on the part 
 of her Majesty to shrink from such 
 an inquiry : her advocates had even 
 courted it, and h;id been loud and cla- 
 morous in their demands for an expla- 
 nation upon that point. Had that 
 explanation been given by those who 
 conducted the present proseeution ? 
 No, it been carefully and cautiously 
 withheld. Another point, connected 
 with that on which he had been just 
 speaking, deserved the attention of 
 their lordships. They had not, he 
 trusted, forgotten that his learned 
 friend, the Attorney-General, at the 
 conclusion of the case — for, without 
 meaning him an}l^disrepect, he (Mr. 
 Williams) must call it his (the Attor- 
 ney-General's) case, from the manner in 
 which he had conducted it — had made 
 a singular application for delaying the 
 further proceedings of this biil, on the 
 ground that certain witnesses, who 
 were wanted to prove an act of adultery 
 at Lugano, had not arrived in the coun- 
 tiy. Singular as that application was, 
 it had been made. A niiiht intervened. 
 
MR. WILLIAMS. 
 
 227 
 
 In the mornin<; lliat application was 
 reJinquiKhed. Tlie reason was appa- 
 rent. In ordinary cases such an appli- 
 cation coiihi only be sustained by call- 
 ing the attorney, or some agent t» the 
 party, to prore, upon oath, that the 
 evidence of the absent, but expected 
 witnesses, was important to the case. 
 Had any evidence to that effect been 
 tendered to their lordships ? Had Mr. 
 Powel whose presence in court such 
 circumstances absolutely demanded, 
 been called before their lordships ? 
 No ; the application had, as he had be- 
 fore stated, died quietly away; the 
 opportunity had been allowed to perish, 
 which had been oifered to the adverse 
 party, of proving that it was unjust 
 accusation against them to say, that 
 they had disbursed large sums in pro- 
 curing wiint'sses from Italy, or that 
 they had afforded funds to their 
 foreign ».;ommissarios, to their agents in 
 law, to their agents in equity, and to 
 theiragents militants — indeed, he knew 
 not by what Jenns to designate them — 
 to procure men whose consciences 
 •were vendible. That opportunity, 
 which they ought to have eagerly em- 
 braced, they had wilfully neglected; 
 and the conclusion which he drew from 
 such conduct was, that money had 
 been largely and lavishly expended to 
 get up this prosecution. At that con- 
 clusion he had arrived, not upon the 
 testimony of Italian witnesses (of 
 whom, as of the ancient Greek, it 
 might be said, 
 
 " Graerulns esuriens in ccelum jns- 
 soris, ibit,") 
 
 Not upon mere surmises, but upon 
 facts which went home to the minds 
 and bosoms of men. The funds of 
 corruption, he must repeat it, had 
 been afforded, or why had Mr. Powell 
 been withheld from joining in the ap- 
 plication made by his learned friend, 
 the Attorney-General? Mr. Williams 
 then proceeded to observe, that he 
 must, at the risk of being thought 
 tedious, make another general remark 
 before he entered into the details of 
 the evidence which had been sub- 
 mitted to their lordships. He did 
 not intend to travel over the ground 
 which his learned friend, the Queen's 
 Attorney-General, had occupied so 
 ably before him, by dwelling on the 
 glaring and flagrant improbability at- 
 tendant on the circumstances which 
 had beett imputed to the Queen. They 
 
 had heard that familiarities which had 
 been justly called most disgusting, had 
 taken place between her Majesty and 
 Bergami ; but they had likewise heard 
 that her Majesty had been, if the 
 witnesses were to be credited, most 
 careful and cautious thai those fami- 
 liarities should not occur in solitude or 
 obscurity, but in the light of day and 
 in the presence of multitudes. That 
 was in itself most improbable, but was 
 rendered still mor.? so by a circum- 
 stance which had transpired in the 
 examination of no unwilling witness 
 against her Majesty — he meant Du- 
 mont — and of which his learned friend 
 had failed to take any notice. The 
 Queen, during all the time that she 
 was accused of conducting herself 
 with this most extraordinary, most 
 open, and most convenient profligacy, 
 (for most convenient it certainly would 
 have been to those who meditated this 
 bill), thought and believed herself to 
 be surrounded by spies and enemies. 
 What ! was it to be believed that a 
 Princess, who had not forgotten the 
 persecution which she had endured in 
 the year 1806 — who was not ignorant 
 of the attention with which her actions 
 were contemplated in this country — 
 who did not suppose herself to be in 
 any favour with those who were in 
 power in it — was it to be believed that 
 she would in the presence of a crew 
 of twenty- two persons, not only render 
 herself open to the accusations, but 
 even surrender herself at discretion 
 to the malice of her enemies.? There 
 was another instance from the evi- 
 dence which he wished to place before 
 their lordships, now that he was dis- 
 cussing the improbability of the 
 charges. Their lordships would bear 
 in mind what was stated to have oc- 
 curred at Naples, which had been made 
 the scene of the early as well as the 
 more mature charges : they would 
 bear in mind that Majochi stated him- 
 self to have slept in an apartment 
 between the room of the Princess and 
 the room of Bergami; and that he had 
 been stationed there by Bcrgami himr 
 self, in consequence of BergamiV 
 illness; they would likewise bear in 
 mind that there was a light and a fire 
 in that room, that there was no regular 
 bed in it, and that the repose which 
 Majochi was to take, if, indeed, he 
 who was stationed to watch over a 
 sick man was to take any, was to be 
 upon a sofa. Now that they were on 
 
228 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 the subject of probabilities, he woiild 
 ask their lordships what they would 
 say to this statement ? He was well 
 aware that Majochi had previously 
 stated that one access to Bergami's 
 room was through that room in which 
 lie himself was stationed; but, in his 
 earlier evidence, his statement was 
 such as would incline any person to 
 believe that it was the only access. 
 He was asked, '* Then it is to be 
 understood, there was between the 
 bedroom of the Princess and the bed- 
 room of Bergami nothing but that 
 corridor and that small cabinet?" And 
 he fearlessly answered, " There was 
 nothing else : one was obliged to pass 
 through the corridor, from the corridor 
 to the cabinet, and from the cabinet 
 into the room of Bergami — there was 
 nothing else." He was then asked, 
 '* Did any person sleep in that cabinet 
 in general?" His reply was, "There 
 ■was no person who slept in that cabi- 
 net — it was free — there was nobody 
 sleeping in it." The next question 
 was, *^ Did the other people of the 
 suite sleep in that part of the house, 
 or at a distance?" His answer was, 
 " They were separated." But how 
 well that answer tallied with another 
 part of his evidence their lordships 
 would see directly ; at present it was 
 his object to show their lordships that, 
 so far from the passage^ through that 
 cabinet being the only means of access 
 to Bergami's chamber, there was art- 
 other access by another part of the 
 house communicating with the Prin- 
 cess's room, in going through which 
 she would not have had to encounter 
 any watchmen, or any person in at- 
 tendance on the sick. On the minutes 
 of their lordships will be found the 
 following testimony: — 
 
 " Will you swear that there was no 
 other passage than that through the 
 corridor ? — I cannot swear ; I have 
 seen no other than this, and I cannot 
 say that there was any other but this. 
 
 *' Will you swear that there was no 
 Other way by which any person going 
 into Bergami's room could go, except 
 by passing through the cabinet? — I 
 cannot swear there is another — I have 
 seen but that. There might have 
 been, but I have not seen any, and I 
 cannot assert but that alone. 
 
 " Will you swear, that if a person 
 wished to go from the Princess's room 
 to Bergami's room, he or she could not 
 go any other way than through the 
 
 cabinet in which you slept? — There 
 was another passage to go into the 
 room of Bergami. 
 
 " Without passing through the ca- 
 binet in which you slept? — Yes." 
 
 From this it was evident that there 
 was another way to Bergami's room 
 than through the cabinet in which ^. 
 Majochi slept; and, therefore, unless ' ^ 
 her Majesty wished to give a distinct^ \ 
 notice to a person to watch her con- .1 
 duct, who, from the very occasion, 
 was likely to watch it, he defied tbe 
 ingenuity of man to find any reasoU, 
 consistent with common sense or with 
 human nature, which could have in- 
 duced her to adopt a passage which 
 could lead to nothing but her own ex- 
 posure, and not go by another, through 
 which she might have equally well 
 indtilged the guilty passion which was 
 imputed to her, and, what was still 
 more important, might have indulged 
 it unobsered. Their lordships all 
 knew the advantage that a party pos- 
 sessed who had " confidentem rerum ;** 
 but if the witnesses for the present 
 case were to be credited, the advocates 
 for the bill had a still greater ad- 
 vantage, they had a defendant abso- 
 lutely seeking her own conviction. 
 If they could reconcile such an idea 
 with what they knew of human nature, 
 then Majochi's evidence might well 
 stand — then, in spite of all its con- 
 tradictions, it might be credited. But 
 if they applied to it those tests which 
 would be applied by the judge in any 
 common cases — for the jury were the 
 judges — if they submitted it to the 
 ordinary criterion to which evidence 
 was submitted, then they would reject 
 it as improbable, and would confess 
 that it was impossible to believe it. 
 Indeed, it was his opinion that, mak- 
 ing the consideration of the probability 
 of the story a subsidiary and auxiliary 
 consideration to the inquiry into its 
 truth or falsehood, there was sufficient 
 in that story of the cabinet to con- 
 vince every individual of Majochi's 
 perjury. Leaving that matter, how- 
 ever, to the reflection of their lord- 
 ships, he should next advert to Ma- 
 jochi's assertion, that the rest of the 
 family slept at a distance, which, by 
 the by, was in this case no indifferent 
 matter. For, what had been all the 
 object of the proof? — what had been 
 vill the labour of his learned friend the 
 Solicitor-General's summing up, ex- 
 cept to prove that, from Naples to 
 
MR. WILLIAMS. 
 
 229 
 
 Mossina, from Messina to the Villa 
 d'Este, and from the Villa d'Este t«> 
 almost cver>- quarter of Italy, evtvy 
 opportunity had been indnstri(M.sly 
 courted for the purpose of con^^viuin'g 
 the crime imputed to her Majesty? 
 He therefore wished to :i!iovr their 
 lordships how Majoehi had been borne 
 out in this assertion in his cross 
 examination. 
 
 " You have said, that, in the house 
 at Naples, the rest of the" suite (4' her 
 Royal Highness, fxceptBergami slept 
 in another part of the house from her 
 Royal Highness.'' 
 
 The answer was, " I do not remem- 
 ber whether the other part of the 
 family slept separate or distant." In- 
 deed ! How then was it that he had 
 sworn, with the most unbluslung 
 effrontery, in answer to the same ques- 
 tion, that they slept separate? It 
 would be a mere waste of time to 
 make any comment upon such a pal- 
 pable contradiction: it was impossi- 
 ble to consider it as any thing else but 
 a wiclted, wilful, an] malignant per- 
 version of the truth. He would now 
 call the attention of their lordships to 
 the mode of examination which had 
 been pursued during this inquiry. If 
 it had been accidental, he could not 
 help but lament it : but it was a very 
 singular coincidence that every thing 
 which could injure the Queen had 
 transpired, whilst every thing that 
 could benefit her had been withheld. 
 If this was the effect of accident, it 
 was a peculiarly unfortunate throw of 
 the dice for his illustrious client. He 
 would refer them to the minutes, 
 where the Queen's going to bed was 
 the matter of inquiry; and, as it was 
 imputed to her at Charnitz, 
 
 '* Quae regio in terris nostri non 
 plena laboris," 
 
 That an adulterous intercourse, or, in 
 other words, adultery had been there 
 committed, it was requisite to observe 
 the manner in which that circumstance 
 was stated. The following was an 
 extract from the minutes : — 
 
 " Who went to bed >u that -joom 
 besides her Royal Highness? did any 
 body ? — Myself. 
 
 " At what time did you go to bed? 
 — Nearly ten o'clock. 
 
 " At what time did her Royal High- 
 ness go to bed? — At the same hour. 
 
 " In the same room ? — lu the same 
 room. 
 
 There the evidence rested : it placed 
 her Majesty in bed, in the ordinary 
 phrase, and without further inter- 
 pretation ; but, in reality, the Queen 
 had, at that time, no more gone to bed 
 than he (Mr. Williams) was at the pre- 
 sent moraejit. He should row just 
 bog to refer their lordships to the 
 evidence, where the witness answered 
 a question from somebody respecting 
 the statement of the Princess being 
 undressed. The following were the 
 questions and answers in Dumont's 
 evidence : 
 
 Had the Princess undressed ? — I do 
 not recollect ; she was in bed, but I 
 do not recollect whether she was ub- 
 dressed. 
 
 Do you remember the dress that the 
 Princess was in the habit of wearing 
 at the time ?— Yes, 
 
 Was it not a blue habit trimmed 
 with fur round close up to the neck, 
 with a great deal of fur about it? — 
 Yes, there was a great deal of fur here 
 (about the bosom): it was a blue 
 dress. 
 
 This sort of dress, the evidence 
 showed, was rendered necessary by 
 the frosty state of the weather at the 
 period spoken of. The witness then 
 went on to state, that she did not re- 
 collect having seen the Princess throw 
 off the fur dress in the course of the 
 day. A great deal would in the after- 
 part of the case depend upon this cir- 
 cumstance, and would show to the 
 world that this was a triumphant case 
 for her Majesty the Queen. Was it, 
 he asked, dealing fairly towards the 
 Queen to put some questions to a wit- 
 ness which left a matter to be caught 
 by inference in a most injurious way, 
 of which there was no proof, or sem- 
 blance of proof, by direct fact ? He 
 should be fatiguing iheir lordships 
 were he to adduce the almost number- 
 less instances, throughout the evi- 
 dence, in which much was disingenu- 
 ously left for inference, which could 
 not be substantiated by even a shadow 
 of proof. He entreated their indul- 
 gence while he adverted to other parts 
 of tlie evidence, to show the frequent 
 attempts to create an unfavourable 
 impression by this sort of inference. 
 After describing the state of the tent, 
 the witness (Dumont) went on thus. 
 She Mas asked. 
 
 Did you go to the tent for the pur- 
 pose of assisting in undressing her 
 Royal Highness?— Yes. 
 
230 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEK. 
 
 "Was she undressed as usual ? Yes. 
 
 She then de.scribed that she left Ihe 
 Princess undressed : but he entreated 
 tiieir lordships to refer to what she 
 says. It is as follows, and came out 
 on her cros;s-examination: — 
 
 You have described stopping at 
 Auin? — ^\>s. 
 
 ; Do you, or do you not, mean to say 
 that you undressed the Princess at 
 AurnP — I recollect 1 was under the 
 tent of the Princess, but I do not 
 recollect whether I undressed her or 
 not. 
 
 Do you mean to say that the Prin- 
 cess was undressed under the tent at 
 Auni ?— She had pulled oif her upper 
 habiliments. 
 
 Do you moan by that the dress in 
 which she had been riding, travelling? 
 Yes, a gown or robe, which was open. 
 
 Do you mean more than the outer 
 garment, of whatever description? — I 
 do not recollect if it was any thing 
 more. 
 
 Thus proceeded the scheming cham- 
 bermaid with one story at one time, 
 and a difierent one at another, though 
 she had been loug prepared for the 
 statement, for she had been examined 
 at Milan, examined also in England, 
 hefore she was brought to their lord- 
 »J)ips' bar ; sworn also in these private 
 exaKiinations — a thing never heard of 
 .l>efore in a civil or criminal court of 
 this country ; or if heard of, only heard 
 to be reprobated. He was therefore 
 justified in sajing, that, instead of its 
 being left open to inf'irence that the 
 Princess w'as undressed in the tent, 
 he had it from tlie moulh of Dumont 
 herself, that she only took off her 
 jiding-dress,.and threw on a night-robe 
 over the ordinary dress she wore be- 
 neath the travelling-cloak. He re- 
 peated, was it quite fair, then, either 
 to the Queen or their lordships, to 
 have made such groundless insinua- 
 tions ? If time had had in tliis case 
 is usual operation, and that the parties 
 Lad eitlier forgotten all recollection 
 of the particular events, or that the 
 witnesses who could prove it had 
 fallen off in the incidents of human 
 life, then the Queen might have fallen 
 a sacrifice to a foul conspiracy, for 
 she would have been without the 
 means of a successful defence. He 
 implored their lordships, then — he 
 demanded of them, if they would ex- 
 f use the phrase in behalf of his Royal 
 Mistress — to look closely at the tex- 
 
 ture of the evidence produced at their 
 bar. Why did Dumont, he would ask, 
 conceal this, when the questions were 
 first put to her? Was it to avoid being 
 caught and detected in that odious 
 monosyllable, which he would here, 
 for the sake of delicacy, merely call, 
 in a borrowed phrase of her own, a 
 '^ doukle entendi-e r It was very sin- 
 gular, too, that the questions should 
 have been, on the part of tlie prose- 
 cution, so put as to create all the 
 inferences, which, by a strange coin- 
 cidence, should have an injurious 
 tendency against the Queen. He 
 should not attribute motives; he dis- 
 liked harshness; but he thought the 
 coincidence to which he alluded was 
 extremely singular throughout this 
 case. In the minutes of the evidence 
 he found the matter again alluded to 
 in a similar manner, where Dumont 
 described the circumstance of tlic 
 Queen's changing her dress, to repre- 
 sent the Genius of History at the 
 grand masquerade at Murat's Court. 
 The following were the questions and 
 answers to which he now referred: 
 
 What dress did she assume the se- 
 cond time? — The Genius of History. 
 
 Did she change her dress entirely 
 for that purpose ? Did you assist her 
 in changing lier dress ? — I did not. 
 
 And though she, by this answer, ad- 
 mits that she did not ; and afterwards 
 says, she did not enter the room at Ih^ 
 time ; yet she had still tlie pertinacity 
 to speak of an entiie change of dress, 
 though the Queen might merely, as on 
 the other occasion, have changed her 
 outside robe, and put oa another, 
 more in unison with the second cha- 
 racter she meant to assume. This 
 was the part of the subject which was 
 coloured up so highly by the learned 
 counsel for the bill— this was the part 
 of the case on which so much stress 
 was laid, and wrought up not only 
 with all the ingenuity of an advocate's 
 but something of the imagination of a 
 poet. He would take one or two 
 instances more of the fertility of in- 
 vention used on the part of the pro- 
 secution. Let them look at w hat was 
 said by Majochi — a name not easily 
 to be forgotten while the name of 
 England or its language should en- 
 dure. Which of their lordships ever 
 learned, from the questions put to 
 Majochi in his examination in chief, 
 that the shores of England had ever 
 been honoured by the wituees before 
 
MR. WILLIAMS. 
 
 231 
 
 lie was bronsrht over to be presented 
 at thnr lordships' bar ? Which of them 
 ever thought Majochi had been at 
 Glourester, had been In London, had 
 been about, in stage coaches, here and 
 there, and tlsewhere? This informa- 
 tion, which must have been known to 
 the prosernlors, was entirely kept 
 from their lordships and the Queen 
 until it reached hev Majesty's counsel 
 after the regular examination of Ma- 
 jochi had been gone through, owing 
 to the most accidental circumstances. 
 Were it not for this accidental in- 
 formation, Majochi would have passed 
 away unheeded, as one of the new 
 importation, for whose use the ad- 
 joining plvice had been so appro- 
 priately fitted up. Had it been earlier 
 known that Majochi was in England, 
 inquiries could have been made, which 
 would have thrown a lig^ht upon his 
 character and testimony. Majochi 
 had by this concealment all the ad- 
 vantage of appearing at the bar as 
 dull as a post, while the questions 
 were putting through the medium ot 
 an interpreter, and all the opportuni- 
 ties while that was doing, of pondering 
 upon and collecting his answers. Of 
 this comfortable delay, no doubt, he 
 had amply availed himself. Care was 
 also taken, in the case of the captain, 
 to conceal the fact that he had still 
 some unsettled claim upon Hergami, 
 founded on expectations held out to 
 him for the conveyance of the royal 
 passenger. This had been well omitted 
 at first by the captain, who, when he 
 should return to his own country, 
 would no doubt find himself loaded 
 with honours, and the admiration of 
 his fellow-countrymen, for the re- 
 muneration he should have acquired 
 by his trip, and which greatly exceeded 
 the earnings of a long portion of life, 
 if devoted to his ordinary pursuits. 
 The information respecting the un- 
 settled claim of Bergami fell out, or 
 rather tumbled out by accident, in 
 the progress of his evidence. The 
 odds were surely extremely high that 
 such omissions were not so repeatedly 
 accidental. 
 
 The learned counsel then proceeded 
 to comment upon the summing up of 
 the Solicitoj-General, and particularly 
 upon that part of it in which he stated 
 that the courier (Bergami) was prv- 
 feent while her Majesty changed *' the 
 entire of her dress" — a statement ut- 
 terly uawarrauted by the evidence 
 
 upon which his learned friend was 
 then commenting. Besides assuming 
 the " entire change of dress," he also 
 assumed that it took place in a bed- 
 room, of which there was no attempt 
 at proof in evidence. In fact, in one 
 sentence of that summing up, there 
 would be found gratuitous assertion, 
 unfounded assumption, and mis-state- 
 ment of facts. It was perfectly clear 
 that these mis-statements and false in- 
 ferences were introduced for the pur- 
 pose of prejudicing their lordships' 
 minds, and attempting to create an 
 undue and unwarrantable impi-ession 
 against the Queen. He was perfectly 
 willing to believe that his learned 
 friends acted upon the instructions 
 they had received, and that the con- 
 cealment of the facts lay with the wit- 
 nesses. On the subject of the dress, 
 their lordships would recollect how 
 closely he had questioned the witness: 
 he entreated their lordships to bear ia 
 mind her answers, and the subsequent 
 light she threw on her first statements. 
 He asked this of their lordships in the 
 well-grounded expectation, that as th<'y 
 were not indulgent at first, they would 
 be vigilant at last. He had elicited 
 the explanation respecting the dress, 
 on which so much had been said, be- 
 cause he did not believe that at tbc 
 Neapolitan court, attended as it was 
 by the nobility of the country, any 
 such indecent dress could have been 
 displayed. The evidence left hi« 
 learned friend's description of that 
 dress utterly unsupported, as it did 
 his other statement of the Queen's 
 having been hissed out of the theatre 
 of San Carlos. Why,he repeated, were 
 such statements made to refieet upon 
 the character of her Majesty, when 
 not a single syllable of evidence could 
 be adduced to support them ? One as- 
 sertion by the Attorney-General wa«, 
 that the Queen had been hissed by the 
 audience out of the theatre San Carlos ; 
 but had this injurious imputation re- 
 ceived any support from the evidence? 
 Was it not clear, on the contrary, that 
 Dnraonthad deceived the learned coun- 
 sel — had imposed upon them by a story 
 which she had not afterwards the 
 effrontery to maintain at the bar ? The 
 presumption of British justice had hi- 
 therto been, that a person should be 
 considered innocent until proved to be 
 guilty; and if ever a case had arisen 
 where it ought to prevail, by evei-y 
 sense of duty, by every I'eeling of deli- 
 
292 
 
 DEFENCE OP THE QUEEN, 
 
 cacy, by every impulse of humanity, it 
 ought to prevail in this ; it tould not 
 be impressed too deeply, nor medita- 
 ted upon too intently by their lord- 
 ships. One of the strangest incidents 
 in the whole proceeding had been the 
 rare and curious composition of the 
 memory of Majochi ; it was a most sin- 
 gular, nay, an unnatural, an impossi- 
 ble memory — it was all on one side of 
 the question — it was a perfect blank to 
 every thing in favour of the Queen, 
 and crowded with inventions and false- 
 hoods to destroy her innocence. He 
 begged the House to bear in mind the 
 instances adduced by his learned 
 friend; for it was as manifest as that 
 the sun had not yet set, that a witness 
 might commit perjury in a negative 
 shape, in the same way that an injury 
 might be done by commission, as her 
 Majesty had more than once experi- 
 enced. When Majochi, with a degree 
 of condescension to which he was not 
 often prone, when he spoke of the sick- 
 ness of Bergami, when the Queen 
 visited his bed-room, mentioned the 
 name of Dr. Holland as having been 
 present ; but when the Queen's Attor- 
 ney-General was endeavouring in his 
 cross-examination to explain that visit 
 in the most innocent way, by showing 
 that Bergami was too ill to allow the 
 possibility of guilt, then this adroit 
 and accomplished witness, Signor Non 
 mi ricordo, with a memory so accom- 
 modated to circumstances, ceutd not 
 recollect that he had ever seen any 
 medical man at all with Bergami. He 
 now came to some circumstances con- 
 nected with the evidence of Mademoi- 
 selle Dumont, who was also in some 
 respects a signal instance of impartia- 
 lity of memory. Before, however, he 
 proceeded, he begged to put it to their 
 lordships whether they believed there 
 was a vord of truth in the ingenious, 
 eiaborat;^, composite explanation at- 
 tempted by this lady of what she 
 had once deliberately written. When 
 cross-examined on the first day, when 
 attention was called to her letters, she 
 had never dreamed of mentioning any 
 thing like a double entendre ; the day 
 passed a way, and no explanation passed 
 her lips. On the following morning, 
 however, she thought she could mend 
 her story : she had slept upon the mat- 
 ter, and above all within the circuit of 
 less than an hundred miles from the 
 House ofLords,forhe would not assert 
 that it was within the walls, she had 
 
 had a conference with some person 
 that was of most material importance 
 in doing away the force of the expres- 
 sions in her correspondence. Whether 
 that conference had lasted for two 
 hours or for five was of no consequence ; 
 the result of it was, a regular explana- 
 tion as systematic as any of the ora- 
 tions of Cicero : it was formed on a 
 classical model, like the speeches of 
 the King's Attorney-General, who was 
 perhaps the only man of the present 
 day who coul<} be at all compared wiih 
 the orators of old. Dumont's explana- 
 nation had a beginning, a middle, and 
 an end, and the whole was the effect 
 of that interview and rehearsal which 
 she had afterwards acknowledged, but 
 at first denied, insisting that after the 
 examination of the preceding day she 
 had gone home directly, which, neither 
 in French, Italian, nor English, in 
 Greek, Latin, or Hebrew, could mean 
 any thing but that she returned with- 
 out delay. After all this preparation 
 and study — after consulting the pro- 
 secutors and her pillow — was her ex- 
 planation in any respect satisfactory? 
 He would venture upon this general 
 assertion, that it had not the shadow of 
 a shade of sense in it — that there was 
 not the slightest pretence for it in the 
 letters, which were in themselves per- 
 fectly intelligible ; and, with her gloss, 
 perfect obscurity. It would be to 
 trifle with the time of the House almost 
 as grossly as she had trifled with her 
 oath, to use any arguments to show its 
 absurdity. The author of some future 
 comedy would here possess a fine ori- 
 ginal, upon which to draw the charac- 
 ter of an intriguing, shuffling, lying, 
 artful, chamber-maid. He put it to 
 their lordships, whether it was insult- 
 ing common sense to pretend that by 
 the expression of *' the capital of Eu- 
 rope," in one of her letters, she meant 
 that obscure spot which had given her 
 birth, and to which it were to be de- 
 voutly wished that it had pleased God 
 to confine her. At least she was desi- 
 rous it should be left doubtful whether 
 by the '* capital of Europe" she meant 
 London or Colombier: "nequeratio- 
 nem neque modum habet ullum ;" the 
 thing was wholly incredible, and it 
 would only be *' rationem insaDire,"a8 
 the comedian expressed it, to waste 
 words upon its refutation. He addu- 
 ced these as specimens only : he left 
 the great mass to their lordships, who 
 no doubt would examine the whole evi- 
 
MR. WILLIAMS. 
 
 233 
 
 dfuoe with more patience and indus- 
 try tha!i he had done, because they had 
 more hi:;h and important duties to dis- 
 charge than tliose by whose weight he, 
 as an advocate only, was oppressed. 
 They would find, that Duniont was try- 
 ing her hand in one of her letters to her 
 sister at a panegyric, and she chose as 
 her sui)jcct her gracious and illustrious 
 mistress, the Queen. '' How often 
 (she said) in a numerous circle, whilst 
 with all the enthusiasm which anima- 
 ted me, I enumerated her great quali- 
 ties, her talents, her mildness, her pati- 
 ence, her charity, in short, all tlie per- 
 fections which she possesses in an emi- 
 nent degree ; how often, I say, have I 
 not seen my hearers affected,and heard 
 them exclaim, how unjust is the world 
 to cause so much uneasiness to one 
 who deserve^s it so little, and who is so 
 ;worthy of being happy." He asked 
 their lordships again, whether they be- 
 lieved all this to be but the fraudulent 
 cover for malignant hate ? Did it mean 
 what it expressed, or any thing else ? 
 Was it at all improbable that the wri- 
 ter should be sincere ? Was the object 
 of her eulogy undeserving of it ? Was 
 she the only person who entertained 
 this opinion P Had no one else said as 
 much, or nearly as much, of the same 
 illustrious female I He thought that he 
 had heard something very like it be- 
 fore, and that from no mean authority 
 — from a man of an elegant classical 
 taiste — who was celebrated for his spo- 
 ken and written compositions — who 
 was gifted with a knowledge of an- 
 cient and modern languages. He had 
 pronounced on an occasion of no little 
 solemnity, that the Queen was " the 
 grace, the life, and the ornament of 
 the society in which she moved." Was 
 this testimony to be taken in favour of 
 her Majesty, or was it also, like the 
 panegyric of Dumont, to be looked 
 upon as a cover for a malignity, and a 
 c^ouble entendre which explanation only 
 served to render more profoundly 
 €;>8cure ? If then the Queen were wor- 
 thy of this laboured panegyric from so 
 acoompliihed a source, surely the 
 . House would not consider her uude- 
 fi^rving of the inferior encomiura of a 
 Swiss chamber-maid. But he (Mr. 
 ■ Williams) would do Dumout justice 
 against herself; be would assert that 
 . »he belied her better knowledge, 
 and her better nature, when she 
 aitrmptcd to give any other sense la 
 her letter* than the obvious and clear 
 
 SO 
 
 import of the language she employed. 
 Por aught he knew, if it were neces- 
 sary, he might bring to their lordships* 
 bar the distinguished individual to 
 whom he had aUuded, who had pnb- 
 licly declared his opinion of the excel- 
 lence of her Majesty, to repeat in tes- 
 timony the tribute of admiration he 
 had so justly bestowed. Jle would 
 now claim the attention of their lord- 
 ships to a declaration made by the 
 learned counsel on the other side, and 
 to which he had listened with much 
 satisfaction, and with perfect concur- 
 rence : it was this — "that every part 
 of the evidence that might be deemed 
 materia!, without regard to its influ- 
 ence or impression, should be brought 
 forward; for it was the duty of the 
 counsel in support of the bill fairly 
 and candidly to present to the House 
 the whole case, without considering 
 themselves as it were the advo- 
 cates of a party in a suit." Nothing 
 could be more proper tlian such a de- 
 claration : if they had acted up to it, 
 the Queen would have had nothing to 
 ask : it was the whole of her case. 
 " We undertake," said they, " to bring 
 before your lordships all the evidence 
 the case affords, not of a condemnatory 
 nature only, but the whole evidence, 
 whatever be its import or effect, whe- 
 ther it be for or against the Queen of 
 England.'' Such was the engagement 
 into which they had entered, and with 
 infinite pleasure he had treasured np 
 these proverbial words of wisdom and 
 liberality. It was, in fact, not a dis- 
 pute between adverse parties ; it Was 
 a solemn proceeding, not to gain a vic- 
 tory or some petty triumph, but to ar- 
 rive at truth, the whole truth, by means 
 of the evidence and the whole evidence. 
 It was therefore with infinite regret 
 and signal dismay and astonishment 
 that he had afterwards heard the Soli- 
 citor-General, in his summing np, make 
 no le>s than four distinct challenges to 
 the Queen's counsel, in the same way 
 as if it had been a mere Nisi Prins case 
 for the recovery of ^5, for goods sold 
 and delivered. He had dared them to 
 produce Louis Bergami, Bartolomeo 
 Bergami, Brunette, and another vfit- 
 ness. He mentioned this to show thft 
 gross contradiction between the princi- 
 ples and the practice of the other side, 
 between their high sounding profes- 
 sions and their conduct. Where were 
 now those words of wisdom and libera- 
 lity in, which the people of Eaifjand 
 I 
 
tB^ 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEV. 
 
 Wet^iisRiired that that the whole case 
 should be fully, fairly, freely, and fear- 
 lessly investigated, Jj'hey were mere' 
 words, answerinj? a temiporary purpose, 
 but never intended to be carried into 
 effect. Had Ihe Attorney-TJeneral 
 taken one step to perform what he had 
 promised? W4iere was Dr. Holland? 
 Where was Lieutenant Hownam ? 
 Where were the noble ladies attendant 
 upon the Queen? Had any of those 
 competentand credible witnesses been 
 adduced? No: but " dum tacent lo- 
 quantur." — their absence was as useful 
 to her Majesty as if they had been 
 broufijht to the bar ; the other .side had 
 not dared to call them, which showed 
 what nuist have been the impoi t of 
 their testimony to the vindication of 
 the Queen, and the condemnation cf 
 her accusers. This sort of challenge 
 had been imported into this great 
 inquiry from civil causes; where it 
 was often pressed too far, but in all 
 criminal proceedingis, even in our 
 lower courts, the party bringing 
 the charge was bound to establish it 
 by sufficient evidence; and if he 
 failed, the accused was not bound to 
 supply the deficiency, or to establish 
 his innocence in the absence of all 
 proof of guilt. He did not say in the 
 history of English justice, but in the 
 history of English injustice, (for such 
 it would be,) who had ever heard of 
 an unfortunate accused being met by 
 btfing told, " If you do not call this 
 or that witness, whom the prosecutor 
 had it in his power to bring ftVward, 
 we shall consider that j'ou acknow- 
 ledge the justice of the charge !" 
 The case ought never to be left doubt- 
 ful ; or if it were^ the prisoner had a 
 right to the benefit of that doubt. If 
 he (Mr. Williams) in the course of his 
 professional duty indicted a man for 
 murder, and purposely kept back from 
 the jury a witness, because he nught 
 possibly say something to lead to the 
 "acquittal of the wretched being, he 
 iSfaould consider that he, as a counsel, 
 was a party to that man's death when 
 he was hanged for the crime. But this 
 was' not even a case of that description; 
 it was far more important than a ques 
 : tion even of life or death, and legal 
 - maiiflenvres and the dexterity of prac- 
 tised advocates were wholly out of 
 their place; they were unbecoming 
 both the subject and the situation. He 
 ; vras earnest upon this point, because 
 he felt earnestly; he felt here not 
 
 merely for the interest of his illustrious 
 client, whose character, honour, and 
 dignity, were at stake, but for the coun- 
 try itself, whose tranquillity and hap- 
 piness were not less in jeopardy. He 
 called upon their lordships, therefore, 
 te weigh the matter well, and to deli- 
 berate anxiously and carefully before 
 they allowed this challenge to operate 
 against the Queen. *' I defy my learned 
 friends (said the Solicitor-General) 
 to call Louis Bergami." What did he 
 mean by this, but that if the call were 
 not complied with, he should obtam 
 the verdict, he should gain his point; 
 and what was that point which was 
 thus treated as a question regarding a 
 farthing damages? It was no less than 
 the passing of this dreadful measure, 
 the accomplishment of one of the most 
 terrible mischiefs by which the coun- 
 try could be afflicted. What,how ever, 
 was Louis Bergami to prove when he 
 was produced? how was he implica- 
 ted ? In no other way than that Majo- 
 chi, speaking of a breakfast at which 
 the Queen and Bergami were seated at 
 the fame time, swore that either 
 Louis Bergami or Camera waited upon 
 them on the occasion. So that &ven 
 the presence of Louis Bergami was not 
 vouched, and the Solicitor-General had 
 gone beyond the manoeuvre, the arti- 
 fice, the legerdemain, the dexterity, 
 the trickery of an advocate in the pet- 
 tiest cause that ever degraded the 
 meanest court of justice in the king- 
 dom. Next he said m the same spirit, 
 " I defy you to call Bartolomeo Bw- 
 gami!" but here again it was " felum 
 inibelle sine ictu !" there was all the 
 will to wound, but the blow was im- 
 potent and harmless; for suppose this 
 person were produced at the bar, did 
 not the experience in the world of 
 every man show, tliat supposing the 
 crime of Bergami more or less, his an- 
 swers at the bar upon this subject must 
 necessary be of one description only. 
 Such an attempt on the part of the Soli- 
 citor-General in a case of this kind was a 
 shameless prostitution (without offence 
 be it spoken) of a low contemptible 
 trick of courts, unworthy of the wis- 
 dom and of the great political and legis- 
 lative character of the Honse of Lords. 
 This was not a trial at Nisi Prius, it 
 was a Bill of Pains and Penalties— a 
 measure which Lord-Chancellor Coo- 
 per had declared, lu his celebrated pro- 
 test, ought never to be resorted to, but 
 in cases of the last necessity ; and for 
 
MR. WILLIAMS. 
 
 2S5 
 
 this reason he rMr. Williams) assertrd 
 that the analogies of common law pro- 
 ceedings had been shamelessly intro- 
 tToduced. The charge against the 
 Qneen was of no distinct crime known 
 to the law, and the law therefore had 
 affixed no specified punishment: to 
 tailc of analo'^'ies was therefore ridicu- 
 lous, and the House in its political 
 and legislative capacities, bolh of *vhich 
 were here to be exercised, onght not 
 lie guided, much less governed by any 
 low technicalities. He liMpod then lie. 
 should hear no more of analogies, 
 which were only talked of whenever 
 they intended to abridge the rights and 
 injure the cause of her Majesty. Pro- 
 testing to the utmost of his power, as 
 zealously as his honourable friend, that 
 the non-production of these witnesses 
 on the other side was a clamorous evi- 
 dence in favour of the Queen, never- 
 tiieless there were high interests at 
 stake which rendered it necessary 
 that they should be called. Witnesses 
 their lordships would have — the chal- 
 lenge would be met, but with respect 
 tQ what would be proved, he begg^ed, 
 in what he should now state, to be dis- 
 tinctly understood. On the otheaside, 
 three years' application had been de- 
 voted to the case ; equitable, legal, and 
 military commissions had been sent 
 out ; examinations upon oath, and 
 without oath, had been taken.* Wit- 
 nesses had been interrogated in Italy> 
 on the road, and in this country ; so 
 that every letter and figure of what 
 they could depose had been distinctly 
 ascertained. The Qneeu had possessed 
 110 such advantage. 
 
 The Earl of LAUDERDALE here 
 interposed, and observing, that it was 
 now four o'clock, and that the learned 
 counsel was entering upon a new 
 branch of his subject, ho recommended 
 that the House should adjourn until 
 tomorrow. — Adjourned at four o'clock. 
 
 THURSDAY, October 5th. 
 The counsel being called in, 
 Mr. WILLIAMS immediately re- 
 sumed his address to the House. The 
 course he had been pursuing towards 
 the close of hia address yesterday had 
 been directed to the circumstance of 
 the counsel in support of the Bill not 
 calling all those witnesses which it 
 might have been naturally expected 
 that they would call; and whom, if 
 
 they had called, lier Majesty the Queen 
 weuld not have been driven to call 
 evi<len('e at all. 'J'he observations the 
 learned coiwisel had made on that part 
 of th-p case would receive thr strongest 
 ooiWirm;iti(.n from the difficulties to 
 which the Queen was exposed. He 
 begged to commence what he had to 
 offer this day by a statement of some 
 facts painfully illujtrative of those 
 difficulties. Their lordships would 
 recollect that the witness Barbara 
 Kress had stated that on one occasio:!! 
 at Carlsruhe she saw the Princess and 
 Bergami on a bed, adding a descrip- 
 tion of the position in which their arms 
 were with respect to each other. Of 
 course nothing could be so nartural as 
 that her Majesty, as fast as the case 
 against her was developed in evidejice? 
 should make every possible inquiry on 
 the continent, to see how far the wit- 
 nesses could be contradicted, her Ma- 
 jesty recollected, that during her stay 
 at this place t-lie had been constantly 
 attended by a chamberlain of the 
 Grand Duke of Baden, to whom that 
 occupation was specifically assigned. 
 It wouy be a waste of time for the 
 learned counsel, as he thought, to urge 
 tb their lordships, the great importance 
 of that evidence which this person 
 must be enabled to give on an occasion 
 like the present. It would be a frivo- 
 lous trifling with common sense, to 
 press on the consideration of the Hou^ie, 
 that as this person had been in con- 
 stant attendance on her Royal Hig)i- 
 ness, his testimony respecting her con- 
 duct would be of the highest import. 
 He was in close attendance on ber 
 person, by special appointment, during 
 her Royal Higlmtss's visit at that 
 place; and fceliug the great ijnport- 
 ance of his testimony, her Majesty w^s 
 desirous, as far as possible, to be ar»tftl 
 against the case in support of the Wijl, 
 Accordingly, her Majesty, with her 
 own hand, wrote a letter, and sent it 
 by a special messenger of the most re- 
 spectal>le sort, to procure the attend- 
 ance of the witness in question. That 
 letter, however, did not obtain the pro- 
 duction of tha t witness. Her Majesty 
 the Queen then wrote another letter, 
 with her own hand, and sent it by ano- 
 ther messenger — one, the learned coiip- 
 sel believed, to the chamberlain, a«d 
 tiie other to the Grand DuUf. 'Jhree 
 letters were tlierefore written by t|ie 
 Queen, and sent by special messeqgfiTS 
 
236 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE OUEEN. 
 
 to procwre the attendance of this wit- 
 ness. It, however, appeared that the 
 chamberlain himself was willing to 
 come; but dcclarod, with tears in his 
 eyes, that he had received orders to 
 the contrary from the Grand Duke; 
 and accordingly, as nii»ht be expected, 
 he had not arrived. With respect to 
 the witnesses on the other side, the 
 learned counsel would remind their 
 lordships, that by the interference of 
 two ministers and two ambassadors, 
 the woman had been partly compelled 
 to arrive ; and this was the sort of ope- 
 rations that were carried on, and the 
 species of compulsive influence which 
 •was exerted all one way. It would 
 further appear, that her Majesty had 
 at Radstadt seen a place which she was 
 clesirous to occupy. No intention was 
 expressed by the Grand Duke to the 
 contrary. The very same chamber- 
 lain had, on that occasion, proceeded 
 even to the length of purchasing new 
 furniture for this residence, when it 
 •was signified to her Majesty, that her 
 inhabiting this place would not be 
 agreeable. This might have been ano- 
 ther reason for keeping back this 
 chamberlain, who would have been so 
 important a witness for her Majesty. 
 Again, her Majesty conceiving it desi- 
 rable that the conduct and character 
 of Bergami, while in the service of 
 General Pino, should be ascertained, 
 application was made to that officer to 
 come to this country. He, also, the 
 learned counsel believed, expressed 
 liis willingness to come; but an inti- 
 mation was given to him from the Aus- 
 trian government, in whose service he 
 now is, that if he did come to this 
 country, he was not to come in his uni- 
 fbrm. Sostrange an injunction excited 
 the gallant general's suspicions that it 
 •was thereby intended he should lose his 
 commission if he obeyed the summons. 
 He made inquiries whether that \vas 
 the signification intended to be con- 
 •veyed, but to those inquiries he had 
 received no answer. Accordingly 
 General Pino had not come, and would 
 not come. These were some of the 
 hardships and difficulties under which 
 her Majesty laboured, and while com- 
 pulsion was exerted towards the wit- 
 nesses on the other side, for forcing 
 their attend-dnce on the House, a simi- 
 lar degree of influence was manifested 
 toprevtnt ihe attendance of some of 
 those witnesses necessary to the 
 Queen's defence. Those difficulties 
 did not rest merely on the individual 
 
 cases the learned counsel had menti- 
 oned ; but lawyers and physicians, 
 and other persons, who could give inost 
 important testimony, were not forth- 
 cominir from the same exertion of un- 
 due influence. He begued now to 
 make some few remarks on the case 
 generally, before Jie opened the evi- 
 dence in defence. He wonlJ ask, 
 how it was possible, if the guilt of 
 her Majesty were so notorious as the 
 preamble of this bill charged that 
 proof was so long in its preparation 
 and production. It was proverbial, 
 that a plain case could not need 
 such delay. If a man assassinated 
 another in the nooa day at Charing 
 Cross, he could not be guilty of that 
 crime, without numerous witnesses to 
 attest his iniquity, and bring him to 
 condign punishments It was the com- 
 mission of the crime at midnight, in 
 the dark, and in sfcret, that rendered 
 proof precarious, and yet here the 
 guilt of her Majesty was charged to ex- 
 ist in the face of day. If it were really 
 so, the learned counsel would ask, why 
 had so great a delay occurred in get- 
 ting up and bringing forward this case.? 
 How was it, to that, with all the proof 
 adduced on the subject, her Majesty's 
 chamber-maid, who had attended lierin 
 the first two months of her travels, had 
 not been called : These inconsisten- 
 cies argued the feebleness of the case 
 on the other side, and showed the in- 
 genuity with which it had been got up. 
 He would now ask whence all this de- 
 lay^ — why in a case at least next in 
 point of enormity to that of high trea- 
 son, kept back to this season. Why 
 was a period of three years suffered to 
 elapse before the facts were brought 
 under judicial observation — a time 
 which he be^rged leave to slate, if suf- 
 fered to pass by before a charge of 
 treason were brought, would render 
 that charge altogether nugatory. Could 
 it be pretended that the rondnct of 
 the Queen Consort of this Realm, or if 
 not actually the Queen Consort, the 
 wife of the representative of the sove- 
 reign acting at the head of the execu- 
 tive, was a matter of no importance to 
 this nation t Could that be urged as an 
 excuse for the delay which had taken 
 place in the production of proof? 
 Surely not. Would it not be surmised, 
 then, he would ask, that it was not 
 vv'hat the Queen had done in Italy, but 
 the fact of her coming over to England 
 that gave rise to the charges in the 
 preamble of this bill ? Aud when this 
 
MTl. WTLIiVAMS. 
 
 237 
 
 was known, ho woulcl .tsk. as llic hum- 
 ble advocate of her Majesty, whether 
 it owxhX not to operate in favou|"of her 
 case? It was for the framers of this 
 bill to explain the causes for this de- 
 lay : but if the interpretation he had 
 given to the facts were true, then he 
 conceived a considerable shade yvoaid 
 be thrown over the whole transaction 
 in the eyes of their lordships. The 
 learned counsel then proceeded to ad- 
 vert to the testimony of Dumont as to 
 the appearances of the bed in her Ma- 
 jesty's room at Naples, on the night of 
 her arrival in that city, and by con- 
 trasting the answers which she had 
 given on th re (V several occasions, to in- 
 fer that in point of fact, her statements 
 were utterly undeservinsr of credit. 
 He then called their lordships' atten- 
 tion to some of the detached facts, or 
 rather actSjhe would say,which had been 
 proved by the witnesses for the bill — 
 and to the manner in which he was pre- 
 pared to meet those facts. He admitted 
 that he m'x^it not b^ able to contradict 
 all the circumstances and minute allega- 
 tions which had been brought against 
 his illustrious client — a state of things 
 which might fairly be attributed to the 
 little time there had been allowed to 
 obtain the necessary inforaiation, and 
 to make the necessary inquiries. It 
 might be said, that he could have had 
 more time allowed ; if such had ^)een 
 hi* wish ; but the Queen was naturally 
 impatient, from the situation in which 
 she had been placed, and could not 
 suffer so extraordinary an equilibrium 
 to prevail, as that of the evidence of 
 twenty -one persons, accompanied by 
 two speeches against her, in one scale; 
 and not a single tithe of an observa- 
 tion in her favour in the other. The 
 course which his learned friend 
 (Mr. Brougham) had taken, was rather 
 to make general remarks on the evi- 
 dence, than to dwell upon those minute 
 particulars, which, in the fair examina- 
 tion of the case, became necessary. 
 He would now humbly endeavour to 
 supply his omissions. . He would begin 
 with the evidence as to what occurred 
 on board the polacca. Majochi's evi- 
 dence respecting the bath which her 
 Majesty had taken, was no doubt fresh 
 in their lordships' recollection. H^ 
 had stated, that this bath was taken 
 in her Majesty's inner-cabin, and 
 that Bergami was with her in that 
 room. Now what were the facts? 
 The bath consisted of a tub — and he 
 
 ■.voul;I irove that it was physically im- 
 possible that that tub could have been 
 placed in her Majesty s apartment— 
 a contradiction of no small importance 
 to this witness. Again, — Gactano 
 Paturzo had stated, that wlien berga- 
 mi changed his sleeping cabin, he was. 
 so placed that the Queen and he could 
 see each other as they lay in their 
 be^ls. In opposition to this he would 
 disli.MCtly shew, that from the situation 
 of tho Queen's bed that fact was 
 rendorod impossible. This was an- 
 other contradiction. The truth was, 
 that the change which had taken place 
 in the sii nation of licrgami's bed was 
 accomplished without her Majesty's 
 knowledge, and in consequence of a 
 surgeon haviujr been laken on board 
 at Tunis. Then, with regard to the 
 sleeping tent on deck. It was in evi- 
 dence that this tfnt or awning was 
 within half a yard of the steersman, 
 who was employed night and day ou 
 that spot. Why was not this man 
 called ? If noi«;es arose in the tent, 
 as Majochi had described, surely he 
 was much more likely to have i card 
 them than a person below, ft at he 
 would prove that the crew ha;l con- 
 stant access to this part of the vessel, 
 and that one of the officers, whose 
 duty it was to be on watch at night, 
 had frequent conversations witli het 
 Majesty as to the state of the Wrather, 
 their progress, and so on; and in an- 
 swering her questions, liftel up the 
 side of the tent for that purpose. The 
 learned counsel then went on to advert 
 to a great variety of other point.s, upon 
 which he should be enabled to give 
 the clearest contradiction to the wit- 
 nesses upon some nf the most promi- 
 nent parts of their testimony. He 
 concluded his address at one o'clock. 
 Earl GREY then rose.— Before the 
 house proceeded further with the in- 
 vestigation, he wished to call their 
 lordships' attention to two statements 
 that had proceeded from the learned 
 counsel; and which, to him, appeared 
 of so much and so deep importance, 
 that he should not feel to have dis- 
 charged his duty unles.s he submitted 
 to them the propriety of calling in 
 counsel to know whether they were 
 ready to proceed 'to the proof of their 
 as^iertion (hear). He aiUided to the 
 statements made by the learned coun- 
 sel of the means which had been used 
 for the obstruction of evidence in 
 favour of the Queeo, which they stated 
 
€38 
 
 DEFENCE OF TJ£E QUEEN. 
 
 to be of a most important naturo. 
 Two different instances had been 
 broufjlit forward : the first relative to 
 the Chamberlain of the Grand Duke 
 of Baden, and the other to General 
 Pino. He was sure their lordships 
 would excuse him for his earnestness 
 upon a subject so deeply affecting the 
 character and jualice of their proceed- 
 ings. He was sure that the first feel- 
 ing of their lordships would be, that 
 this matter onght to be explained; 
 and, with all proper submission, he 
 must still suggest that counsel should 
 be called in to state whether they 
 were prepared with proof of the as- 
 sertions made by them ; and, if they 
 were, that their lordships should pro- 
 ceed with that inquiry first, before 
 they went on further with the in- 
 vestigation. 
 
 Lord LIVERPOOL said, that if 
 her Majesty's counsel, instead of send- 
 ing two or three agents into Germany 
 in her Majesty's behalf, had applied to 
 his Majesty's ministers for the removal 
 ©f this obstacle, he would pledge his 
 honour that not a single moment should 
 Lave been lost in sending a special 
 messenger to Baden. Indeed, he 
 would now promise the learned coun- 
 sel, that if they were of opinion that 
 the evidence of the individual in ques- 
 tion was material to their case, two 
 hours should not elapse before a 
 special messenger should be sent to 
 request his attendance. After again 
 reminding their lordships that no ap- 
 plication had been made by the ac- 
 cuser's counsel to his Majesty's govern- 
 ment, he stated that it was not for 
 him or their lordskips to judge what 
 the causes were which had induced 
 them not to make such application : 
 they were unknown to their lordships, 
 but, beyond a doubt, were satisfactory 
 to those who had acted upon them. 
 Still he must repeat, that if they now 
 wished application to be made, two 
 hoars should not pass away before it 
 was made. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR then 
 addressed himself to her Majesty's 
 counsel, and informed them that he 
 ■was commanded by the house to ask 
 them whether they were then prepared 
 to prove the assertions which they had 
 Blade regarding the non-attendance of 
 the chamberlains of the Grand Duke 
 of Baden and of General Pino. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM: As her Ma- 
 jcaty's counsel had not expected to be 
 
 called up«n to prove those aRsertions 
 in that stage of the proceeding, tkcy 
 had not made arragements to that 
 effect. They were not, therefore, at 
 that time prepared with their proof, 
 in all its particulars, of what related 
 to General Pino. Part of it depend cd 
 upon witnesses who were tlien abroad 
 in th€ employment of her Majesty, 
 especially of Mr. Henry, who was 
 now at Milan, collecting evidence for 
 her defence. They had letters, how- 
 ever,from her Majesty's agen ts abroad, 
 which, in any ordinary case in the 
 courts below, would authorise a so- 
 licitor to offer an affidavit of facts to 
 the judges. With regard to what had 
 occurred between her Majesty's agent 
 and the chamberlain of the Grand 
 Duke of Baden, they were perfectly 
 prepared with; their proof, and were 
 ready to offer it that moment to their 
 lordships, prefacing it, however, with 
 one remark — that they had not applied 
 to his Majesty't government, because 
 they knew that even if ministers did 
 interfere with their influence, that in- 
 fluence would be nugatory, when ex- 
 ercised in behalf of her Majesty, 
 though it would be quite sufficient to 
 throw impediments in her way, when 
 exercised against her. 
 
 Earl GREY could not help remark- 
 ing that the case had assumed a very 
 different appearance, now that it was 
 stated that no application for their in- 
 terference had been made to his Ma- 
 jesty's government. The mode of 
 proceeding which he had recommended 
 was no longer rendered necessary by 
 the circumstances of the case. 
 
 The LORD- CHANCELLOR said, 
 that he was commanded by the house 
 to inquire of her Majesty's counsel, 
 whether, as they had not called upon 
 the British government to exert its 
 infiueuce with the Grand Duke of 
 Baden to compel the attendance of his 
 Chamberlain, they considered his 
 evidence to be of material importance 
 to their case ? 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.— Most unques- 
 tionably we do. We have oaly failed 
 to apply to his Majesty's government 
 for the reasons which I have above 
 stated, and also because we only knew 
 of this insurmountable obstacle within 
 the last day or two. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that 
 as no application had been naade to 
 his Majesty's government, no imputa- 
 tion for unfair dealing coftld be m,ade 
 
ANTHONY BULLEirST. LEG^R. 
 
 2S9 
 
 af^ainst them, and therefore there was 
 no reason why this inquiry should not 
 HOW ^<) on. Her IVIajesty's coiui'cl 
 had nu right to Hssiuiie thut an uppli- 
 catton, which thoy had never designed 
 to ask his Majesty's ministers to make, 
 to procure tl»e attendance of the 
 Chamberlain of the Grand Duke of 
 Badeo, would have been ineffectual: 
 when it had been made, and made in 
 vain, it would have been sooa enough 
 for them to have complained. He 
 again offered, if her Majesty's counsel 
 tlwnght the testimony of that indi- 
 vidnul important to their case, to 
 exert himself to the utmost to procure 
 Lis attendance. 
 
 The Earl of DONOUGHMORB 
 complained that her Majesty's counsel 
 hhd made a statement imputing in- 
 justice to the government, when in 
 fact nolnjusticc whatsoever had been 
 committed by it. Such a statement, 
 comiog from such a quarter, was cal- 
 culated to increase the irritation 
 wh'.ch already existed in the public 
 mind; and he was sorry to say that 
 was quite needless. So much inflam- 
 mation had been already excited, so 
 much misrepresentation had already 
 gone abroad, that many noble lords 
 who had taken part in the present 
 transaction, and who had had no other 
 object in view than the obtaining of 
 *ubstantial justice for all the parties 
 "Concerned in it, stood before their 
 countrj' almost in the situation of-ee4- 
 •ptits. 
 
 Lord HOLLAND complained of 
 the charges which had been brought 
 by the noble Earl, who had last spoken 
 against the counsel at the bar, as 
 unjust and improper. If the counsel 
 ^ere transgressing the rules of the 
 •house, it was in the power of the house 
 -to have stopped them. 
 
 The LORD-GHANCELLOR con- 
 curred with the noble baron who had 
 •receutly addressed them in thinking 
 that it was unbecoming the members 
 of that hoiise to enter into controversy 
 with the counsel at their bar. All 
 their lordships possessed equal rank 
 (arxd authority as judges, and had full 
 .power to interrupt any counsel if he 
 -appeared to them to be proceeding in 
 -an improper manner. 
 
 He deposed as follows : — I am clerk to 
 Messrs. Vi/ard and Blomer, solicito*# 
 to her Majesty. I was sent by her 
 Majesty's ordt rs to Carlsruhe on the 
 1st of September. I arrived there on 
 the 1 tth. I was provided with a letter 
 to the Chamberlain of the Grand 
 Duke of Baden, Baron d'Ende. I in- 
 formed him he was requested to attenti 
 as a witness at this trial on the 17th of 
 Sept. I took down his examination 
 on the 20th, for the purpose of pre- 
 paring briefs for counsel. He in- 
 sulted tninutes he had at Baden. Ihe 
 Grand Duke was then at Baden. 
 When I took the deposition the Baron 
 Baron was willing to come to tliis 
 country. He afterwards said he could 
 not come without the consent of the 
 Grand Duke. He subsequently told 
 me the Grand Duke had refused him 
 permission to come. I remember his 
 saying be enjoyed an estate in Han- 
 over, under his Majesty, but that 
 should not prevent his coming: over, 
 because he was satisfied his Majesty 
 would not think ill of him for coming. 
 I afterwards wrote to him to make a 
 deposition before the local authorities 
 on the spot. He said he could not da 
 so without the consent of the Grand 
 Duke. I returned from Carlsruhe 
 the day before yesterday. Mr. Sicard 
 arrived at Carlsruhe whilst I was 
 there. If I applied to his Majesty's 
 government on my arrival, twelve 
 days, at least, must elapse before a 
 messenger could be sent, and an an- 
 swer received from Carlsruhe. Tt)e 
 conversation to which I have alluded 
 was chiefJy in French. 
 
 FIRST WITNESS. 
 
 [Jame¥ LeMan.] 
 JAMES LEMAN was then called 
 in, and examined by Mr. DENMAN.— 
 
 SECOND WITNESS. 
 
 [Anthony Buller St. Leger.]' 
 
 Colonel ANTHONY BULLER ST. 
 LEGER, examined by Mr, DEN- 
 MAN. — I had the honour of being b«r 
 Majesty's chamberlain I think about 
 eleven years; from 1809 down to Oc- 
 tober I81i>. I went abroad with her 
 Majesty. I went so far as Brunswick. 
 I had entreated that her Royal High- 
 ness would dispense with my attend- 
 ance on account of the bad state of my 
 health, and she was good enough -on 
 that account to dispense with it, after 
 ht r arrival at Brunswick, in the totir 
 she was then about to take. 1 under- 
 stood from her Majesty then, that her 
 tour would be through Germany and 
 : Italy, and she was good cnojigh to say 
 
240 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 that sise would dispense with my at- 
 tendance atter her arrival at Bruns- 
 wick. This was the understanding 
 before I left England. According to 
 that ptrniission I left her Majesty at 
 Brunswick ; she was then good enougli 
 to say tliat 1 might return if J chose. 
 I think I rt'ceived a communication in 
 July or August, tliat it was her Ma- 
 jestN's mtention to come to England in 
 the month of Septeml»er following. In 
 eonsequence I prepared, as I was de- 
 s-ired, te meet her Majesty at Dover. 
 The only reason w!iy I did not meet 
 lier Majesty, was the state of my health. 
 I have been for a considerable time 
 obliged to go into Devonshire — where 
 I am confined within doors all the even- 
 ings during the winter months. Since 
 her Maje.Hty's return I waited upon her 
 immediately on her arrival. In conse- 
 quence of my health, I requested per- 
 mission from her Majesty to resign my 
 office, as during the winter I could be 
 of no use to her Majesty. On that ac- 
 count her Majesty was pleased to ac- 
 cept my resij>nation. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL de- 
 olined asking the witnesss any ques- 
 tions, and he withdrew. 
 
 THIRD WITNESS. 
 
 (Earl Guilford.) 
 
 Earl GUILFORD, examined (in his 
 place) by Mr. TINDALL.— I recol- 
 lect coming to Naples after the Queen 
 had arrived there, about the beginning 
 of March, 1815. When I arrived at 
 Naples, the suite of her Royal High- 
 ness was formed by Lady Charlotte 
 Forbes, Sir William Gell, the Hon. 
 Keppel Craven, and Dr. Holland. 
 Tiiese were all, to the best of my recol- 
 lection. I recollect seeing Bergami. 
 As far as I understood, he was called 
 a courier. I remained, at the period 
 to which I allude, at Naples, three or 
 four days. Lady Charlotte Lindsay 
 arrived with me at Trieste ; but did 
 not aceompany from thence to Naples. 
 . I went there before her. I next saw 
 -her Majesty at Home. The interval 
 - was but a few days. .She remained 
 there two or three days. I ddned once 
 with her Majesty at Naples. There 
 was a large party of English and seve- 
 ral foreigners, Lady Charlotte Lindsay 
 f^ned there, and I believe Madame 
 Falconet. 1 cannot recollect the par- 
 ticular persons. I next saw her Ma- 
 jesty at CivitaVecchia. I believe she 
 
 embarked there for Genoa. She re- 
 mained there I believe five or six days. 
 Lady Lindsay and myself lived in tlw*. 
 same house with her Majesty, and 
 lived at the same table every day. The 
 Marquis de Mauza, the master of the 
 house, was likewise there, and some 
 of his family. The persons who formed 
 her Majesty's suite at Naples were like- 
 wise tliere, with the exception of Dr. 
 Holland. Madame Falconet was there, 
 and her two daughters, one of whom 
 was of the age of. fifteen or sixteen, 
 and the other a little younger. I had 
 seen Madame Falconet before. She 
 was the wife of a banker at Naples, 
 and, I understand, was an English or 
 an American lady. Her husband wa» 
 in a very considerable line of business. 
 I believe Madame Falconet associated 
 in the first mercantile circles in Naples. 
 I believe also she was in the first ranks 
 with the English : but I was but a 
 short time in Naples. Her daughters 
 frequented similar society. She had 
 one daughter married, as 1 understood, 
 to a French gentleman, and another 
 to an American gentleman. These 
 were not the two ladies who were with 
 the Queen. Her Majesty embarked 
 on board the Clorinde. Madame Fal- 
 conet, her two daughters, and Dr. 
 Holland were with her. Lady Lindsay 
 and myself disembarked at Leghorn. 
 The next time I met her Majesty was, 
 I think, in November, 1815, at the 
 Villa d'Este, at her house near the 
 Lake of Corao. I first saw her Ma- 
 jesty on the Lake. I dined at the 
 Villa d'Este. Bergami-was then at her 
 Majesty's table. I do not think I be- 
 fore saw him sit at her Majesty's table. 
 I went away from the Villa d'Este the 
 same evening. The next day I went 
 to Milan, wher©- 1 saw the Queen on 
 the Saturday or Sunday following. I 
 dined with her by invitation. When 
 I w ent to Villa d'Este I had no inten- 
 tion of staying longer. I had made 
 no particular arrangement. 
 
 CROSS-EXAMINATION. 
 
 Cross-examined by the ATTOR- 
 NEY-GENERAL.— Did it happen to 
 your lordship to see, while at Naples, 
 at Rome, or at Civita Vecchia, whe- 
 ther Bergami waited upon the com- 
 pany at table ?— I cannot recollect at 
 Naples whether he did or not, but I 
 think he did at Civita Vecchia. 
 
 Did he wait at table on board the 
 Clpriude ? — I cannot recollect. 
 
EARL GUILFORD. 
 
 241 
 
 What situation dkl Lady Charlotte 
 Lindsay hold iu the Queen's establish- 
 ment? — She was lady of ^e bed- 
 chamber. 
 
 When did her ladyship ' resign that 
 situation?— I think it was at the be- 
 ginning of May, 1817. 
 
 Where did she leave the service? — 1 
 think at Leghorn. 
 
 When you visited at the Villa d'Este, 
 what ladies were in attendance? — 
 There was an Italian lady, whose name 
 I understood to be the Countess Oldi. 
 
 Had your lordship any opportunity 
 of conversing with that lady? — Yes, I 
 conversed with her. 
 
 From your lordship's knowledge of 
 the Italian, did she speak what was 
 termed the patois, or pure Italian? — 
 I thougljt she spoke very good Italian, 
 with rather tlie accent of Lorabardy. 
 
 When at Villa d'Este did your lord- 
 ship see the grounds about the house ? 
 — I did ; I was shewn them by her 
 Majesty. 
 
 Does your lordship remember hav- 
 ing had at the time a Greek or an Al- 
 banian servant? — I had a Greek servant 
 with me. 
 
 Did the Queen accompany your 
 lordship through the grounds?— Yes, 
 she showed me the olive-yard, a great 
 
 {)art of the gardens, and then lent me 
 ler donkey, her jack-ass (a laugh) to 
 ride. 
 
 Did you see the Queen walking 
 about the grounds afterwards ?— I don't 
 recollect. 
 
 Did your lordship see your servan|^ 
 walking about the grounds ? — I might 
 have seen him, but don't recollect. 
 
 Did your lordship see him in any 
 part of the grounds with the Queen ? — 
 No. 
 
 Did your lordship ever state you 
 saw him walking near the Queen? — 
 Certainly not; I don't recollect it. I 
 have stated that he said — 
 
 His lordship was here stopped from 
 mentioning what he had stated he 
 heard. 
 
 I am then to understand your lord- 
 ship to say, that you never saw your 
 servant thai day walking in the grounds 
 with the Princess? — Certainly not ; I 
 do not recollect having seen him; there 
 were a mmiber of people walking 
 about there, but I do not recollect 
 seeing him in particular. 
 
 Does your lordship recollect a grotto 
 there? — Yes; the Princess showed me 
 a grotto, I remember. 
 3i 
 
 Does your lordship recollect your 
 servant being there ? — No ; I do not. 
 
 Did your lordship never state you 
 saw him there ? — Certainly not. I 
 never said so, for I recollect nothing 
 particular that could tix it on my 
 mind. 
 
 Your lordship might perhaps have 
 seen him ? — ^I might have 8e«n him, 
 but I do not recollect it. 
 
 Was your lordship accustomed to 
 ride much at that time? — I seldom 
 rode unless upon the 'donkey which be- 
 longed to her Royal Highness. 
 
 Did you ride over the grounds afc> 
 tached to the Villa d'Este ? — Yes, cer- 
 tainly, I have passed over tlios^ 
 grounds. 
 
 Were you attended by your servaOit 
 on any one of those occasions ? — Yes, 
 sometimes. 
 
 How long did that person afterwards 
 remain in your service? — I think he 
 left me at Venice in the course of the 
 year 181T. 
 
 Had you ever any conversation with 
 yonr sister, Lady Charlotte Lindsay^ 
 on the subject of her remaining in at- 
 tendance on her Royal Highness ?— • 
 Yes, I recollect to have had some cor- 
 respondence with her on the subject. 
 
 Did you recommend to Lady Char- 
 lotte Lindsay the prppriety of resign- 
 ing the situation which she held about 
 the person of her Royal Highness? — I 
 did advise her to resign it. 
 
 What were the considerations which 
 induced you to give that advice? 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM here desired 
 to remind their lordships that this was 
 a question addressed to points on 
 which he had been restrained from 
 entering. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR agreed 
 with the learned counsel, tliat the 
 examination was taking an irregular 
 course, and it might indeed be ad- 
 visable to expunge the preceding ques- 
 tion and answer. 
 
 . .Mr. Gurney was then directed to 
 obliterate the passage from his notes* 
 From the manner of the Attorney- 
 General in the course of this examina- 
 tion, it was manifest the answers iie 
 received were not such as he antici- 
 pated. 
 
 Examined by Lord ROSS.— Did you. 
 ever see her Ro>al Highness in com- 
 pany with any other person in a boat 
 on the Lake of Como? — I have cer- 
 tainly seen her in a boat accompanied 
 by another person. 
 
n^ 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 Wha was that person ? — I have seen 
 her in a boat with Bergami alone. 
 
 Earl GREY.— Did yonr lordship 
 notice any particular familiarity pass- 
 ing between them, when you thus saw 
 her Royal Highness and Bergami in a 
 boat together ? — Certainly, I never ob- 
 Jierred any conduct on that occasion 
 which appeared to me to be indecorous. 
 
 Your lordship has already stated 
 that the Countess Oldi had a little of 
 the Lombard accent in her pronuncia- 
 tion ; was any impression made oh 
 your mind with regard to her manners, 
 as well as with regard to her laugnagef 
 — My chief impression was, that her 
 liianners were quite inoffensive. 
 
 Were they the manners of an apba- 
 rently respectable and modest woman? 
 — 'I saw nothing vulgar or immodest 
 in her deportment. 
 
 Do you reconnect any impression re- 
 maining on your mind aft^r your con- 
 versation with the Countess Oldi, that 
 you had conversed with a vulgar wo- 
 toan? — I do not remember aliy such 
 impression. J. 
 
 Did you remark any difference be- 
 tween her manners and the mannei-s of 
 oth^r Italian ladies? — I cannot say 
 that I did ; there was no observable 
 or material difference; I should not 
 perhaps call her a person of great re-: 
 nneoient, but there was no part of her 
 conduct that was singular or easy to 
 be distinguished from the greater pro- 
 portion of Italian gentlewomen. 
 
 Lord LIVERPOOL.— Do you con- 
 sider that her manners and deportment 
 were those of a woman who had all the 
 advantages of a good education, or 
 "who had passed her life in the best 
 society? — I did not converse 16ng 
 €lh)ugh with her to be enabled to form 
 any clear opinion on those points. 
 
 How often did your lordship meet 
 iier? — I met her on two occasions, 
 once at the A'^illa d'Este, and a second 
 time at Milan. 
 
 Did you know on either of those oc- 
 casions that she was the sister of Ber- 
 ^Aml? — I believe I was not informed 
 df that circumstance on the first occa- 
 sion, but I certainly was aware of the 
 fact when I saw her at Milan. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE.— You have stated, 
 as I understand, that you noticed no 
 defect of education or manners on 
 your conrersing with the Countess 
 Oldi?— I had not the means of form- 
 ing any opinion as to the mode in 
 which she had been educated, but it 
 
 did not appear to nife tli^t tti^rc ^Vas 
 any remarkable difference between 
 her and other ladies of ttic country. 
 
 Lord LAUDERDALE.— At ^hnt 
 part of the table did yonr lordship sit 
 when yon dintd with her Royal Hi|gh- 
 ncss the Princess of Wales at the Villa 
 d'Este ? — On the side opposite to her 
 Royal Highness. 
 
 How was your Ibirdship placed in 
 this respect wlien you diried with her 
 Royal Highness at Milan? — As well as 
 I am able to charge my memory with 
 the circumstance, I sat at her Royal 
 Highness's side. '' 
 
 You have already stated th^t BAi^-' 
 »ami d:ned at that table ; at what part 
 of it did he take his seat? — He J^at, r 
 believe, on the ojjposile bid* cf the 
 table. 
 
 Did ydur lordship receive any parti- 
 cular attention from her Royal High- 
 ness ? — She always treated me in a very 
 gracious manner. 
 
 Was there any thing remarkable in 
 her deportment towards Bergami ? — I 
 remarked no peculiarity. 
 
 Where did Bergami's sister, the 
 Corintcss Oldi, sit on that occasion? — 
 By tlie side of Bergami. 
 
 Who else were present? — Lieutenant 
 Hownam, William Austin, and a geh- 
 tleman whom 1 understood to be an 
 Italian physician. 
 
 Lord KEN YON.— Do you recollect 
 what was t^e size of the boat in w-hich 
 you Saw her Royal Highness and Ber- 
 gami together on the Lake of Comb?' 
 ^~I recollect that it Was rather a small 
 boat. 
 
 Was it in motion at the time? — I 
 hardly remember exactly whether it 
 was moving or not. 
 
 What was its distance from the shore? 
 — Its distance was inconsiderable. 
 
 Was the distance such as to afford 
 you an opportunity of seeing them?— 
 Yes, I had the opportunity. 
 
 How was Bergami employed in the 
 boat? — He was rowing. 
 
 Earl BATHURST.— AYas the Coun« 
 tess Oldi introduced to your lordship 
 as the sister of Bergami ? — No, she 
 was not described as his sister at the 
 time. 
 
 Would your lordship haTfc made any 
 remark on that circumstance, hf»d |t 
 occurred? — I scarcely think that 1 
 should have regarded it as extraordi- 
 nary. 
 
 Earl of DARLIWGTON.— Did you 
 never observe any singularity in tbfe 
 
LADY C. LINDSAJ". 
 
 2i3 
 
 ilepor(nient of lier Royal Highness to- 
 wards Bergaini r — I never observed 
 anv. 
 
 Lord BELMORE.— Bid yoiirsister, 
 Lady Charlotte Lindsay, quit her Royal 
 Ilij;;hness of her own accord, or was 
 she dismissed? — She quitted volun- 
 tarily. 
 
 Did your lordsliip recommend to 
 her to do sor — I did. 
 
 What were the reasons or motives 
 which induced your lordship to make 
 that recotuniendation i 
 
 Mr. liROUGUAM objected to this 
 question as one which counsel had 
 been restrained from putting. 
 
 Lord ELLKNBOUOUGH.— Did 
 you make any observation on the de- 
 portment and manners of Bergami 
 himself r — I remarked that his manners 
 were unobtrusive; I never saw him 
 forward or assuming. — His lordship 
 tl*en stated, with reference to a former 
 part of his testimony, that he had an 
 imperfect recollection of having on 
 some occasion remarked, but not as an 
 extraordinay circumstance, that, after 
 dining at the Villa d'Este, he had seen 
 his Greek .servant Ui attendance on 
 her Royal Highness. 
 
 Had you any conversation with Ber- 
 gami? — No particular conversation: 
 he spoke a little : the only time when 
 I was alone with him was in the gallery 
 at Milan, but I do not recoUeet any 
 particular conversation. 
 
 From the opportunity you had of 
 observing Bergami's behaviour, could 
 you form any opinion of his being su- 
 perior to the situation he had formerly 
 filled?— No, I do not think it struck 
 me that he was. 
 
 FOURTH WITNESS. 
 
 (Lord Glenbervie.) 
 
 Lord GLENBERVIE, examiued by 
 Mr. WILDE. — I saw her present Ma- 
 jesty at Genoa. I was there with L^dy 
 Glenbervie. Lady Glenbervie acted 
 in her Royal Highness's suite at Genoa 
 in this way » — when htr Royal High- 
 ness arrived at Genoa, Lady Glen- 
 bervie and I werxi there. Lady Char- 
 lotte Campbell, who was expected, 
 had not arrivQd,and did not arrive for 
 .9oiue days. Lady Glenbervie having 
 been formerly one of the ladies of the 
 bed-chamber to the Princess, pro- 
 posed to attend her till the arrival of 
 Lady Charlotte Campbell, paring 
 the time Lady Glejibcrvie attended 
 
 upon her Royal Highness, I frequently 
 dined at her Royal Highness's table 
 between the 25th of March and 1 7th qf 
 May ; I saw Bergami every day I 
 dined there. He waited behind t^f 
 Piinccss's chair in the habit of a coi^- 
 rier. 1 often had the honour of sitting 
 next to her, and all I saw in her was 
 the behaviour of any woman of rank 
 to her servant. He often helped me 
 and the Princess to wine and other 
 things. His conduct towards the Prin- 
 cess was tint of a servant. The co]m- 
 pany i mcl vA her Royal Highness's 
 table was Mrs. Falconet and her two 
 daughters; Mr. Hownam, a lieutenant 
 in the navy ; Lady Charlotte Campbell 
 came some days or a week after the 
 Princess ; Dr. Holland was also tl^eie 
 most days, but not all ; I likewise saw 
 some Genoese noblemen ; one in par- 
 ticular I recollect, Marchese Jean 
 Carlo Negvi. 'ihcre were also some 
 English officers of the navy. I al&p 
 saw Lady Beuljoick there, but I dp 
 not know that I dined w ith her. I re- 
 niembcr attending a ball given by the 
 Princess. I attended. A great many 
 of the principal people of the place 
 were there. 
 
 CROSS-EXAMINATION'. 
 
 Cross examined by the SOLICI- 
 TOR-GENERAL.— I b( lieve you did 
 not live in the house of the Priqcfss ? 
 — I did not, nor Lady Glenbervie. 
 
 When Lady "Charlotte Campbell ar- 
 rived after the lapse of a week Lady 
 Glenbervie ceawd to act r — Yes, but 
 she was often there. 
 
 How many times in the week on an 
 average might you have diued there? 
 Two or three times, or how ?— Yes, I 
 should think, certainly, or more. 
 
 Do I understand you that .at that 
 time Bergami wore the dress of a ser- 
 vant? — He was i» a courier's dress, a 
 sort of Spanish dress. 
 
 Lord LAUDERDALE.— Did you 
 meet Captain Pechell-, of theClorinde, 
 at dinner?— I think I did. 
 
 TlWn WITNESS. 
 
 (Lauy Chaklottk Lindsay.) 
 
 Lady CHARLOTTE LINDSAY 
 was then handed to the bar by Mr. 
 Brougham, who applied that she might 
 be accommodated with a chair. Ti\.e 
 request wa» granted, and being sworn 
 she was examined by Dr. LUjSI^XJiiti* 
 ION. -io-^ tu 
 
244. 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEJ^. 
 
 Did you ever form a part of tliesnite 
 of her Royal Highness the Princess of 
 Wales?— I did. 
 
 When did you first enter the service 
 of the Princess ?— I think in the year 
 18p8. 
 
 Did you attend her Royal Highness 
 when she went abroad in l8l4? — I did. 
 
 Were you not one of the ladies of 
 the bed-chamber? — I was. 
 
 How far did you go with the Prin- 
 cess of Wales on that journey ? — As far 
 a£ Brunswick. 
 
 Why did you not go further? — It 
 never was understood by her Royal 
 Highness nor by me that I was to go 
 further than merely to accompany her 
 to Brunswick. 
 
 When did you again see her Royal 
 Highness ? — I saw her at Naples in the 
 beginning of March, 1815. 
 
 Did you then act as lady of the bed- 
 chamber to her Royal Highness? — I 
 did. 
 
 How long did you then continue with 
 her ? — I joined her Royal Highness in 
 the beginning of March. I remained 
 with her as long as she continued at 
 Naples ; I accompanied her to Rome, 
 from thence to Civita Vecchia ; I then 
 embarked on board the Clorinde, and 
 quitted the Princess at Leghorn; this 
 was by an arrangement which had been 
 settled before we met. 
 
 By whom was her Royal Highness 
 visited while at Naples? — She was 
 visited by all the English of distinc- 
 tion there, and by the Neapolitans of 
 distinction, and otiaer parties. 
 
 Be pleased to state the names of 
 ' some? — Lord and Lady Landaif, Lord 
 and Lady Gage, Lord and Lady Cun- 
 ningham, Lord and Lady Holland, 
 Lord Clare, Lord G. Somerset, Lord 
 F. Montague, Lord and Lady Oxford, 
 Sir W. Gell, Mr. Davenport, Mr. W. 
 Bankes, and there may be others 
 whose names I forget. 
 
 Was her Royal Highness visited by 
 Mrs. Falconet? — She was. 
 
 And her daughters? — And her 
 daughters. 
 
 Were you on board the Clorinde 
 with her Royal Highness?— I was. 
 
 Do you remember where her Royal 
 Highness slept on board ? — She slept 
 in a part of the Captain's cabin which 
 was divided into two : her Royal 
 Highness slept in one part, and the 
 captain and his brother in the 
 other. 
 
 Do you recollect any thing arising 
 
 in consequence of the cabin being di- 
 vided into two parts ? — Nothing par- 
 ticular, except that the Princess ex- 
 pressed some regret that the other 
 part of the cabin had not been appro- 
 priated to me instead of the captain 
 and liis brother. 
 
 Did it occasion any difference be- 
 tween the Princess and the captain ? 
 — No, I did not observe it. 
 
 Do yon remember a person of tjie 
 name of Bergami being in the service 
 of her Royal Highness? — I was often 
 in company with the Queen when 
 Bergami attended. 
 
 How did Bergami conduct himself? 
 — In the common way in which a ser- 
 vant would. 
 
 How did her Royal Highness con- 
 duct herself ?— In the manner that a 
 mistress would conduct herself. 
 
 Did you ever observe any impro- 
 priety of conduct between the Princess 
 and Bergami? — Never. 
 
 When did you quit her Royal High- 
 ness's service? — I sent in ray resigna- 
 tion in the year I8l7. 
 
 What was your reason for resigning? 
 — My brother wrote, requesting me 
 to return. 
 
 Have you seen her Royal Highness 
 since she returned to this country? — 
 I have. 
 
 CROSS-EXAMINATION. 
 
 Cross-examined by the SOLICI- 
 TOR-GENERAL.— How long before 
 her Royal Highness quitted Naples 
 was it that you joined her? — I think 
 about ten or twelve days. 
 
 How much time was occupied in 
 proceeding from Naples to Leghorn? 
 — We were one night in going to 
 Rome ; we stayed two nights at Rome, 
 six at Civita Vecchia, waiting for the 
 ship, arid three nights on board the 
 Clorinde. 
 
 Then you did not return into the 
 service of her .Royal Highness after 
 being at Leghorn? — I did not resign. 
 I left at Legliorn for the purpose of 
 joining my brother, and having his 
 escort home. 
 
 While at Civita Vecchia did you see 
 Bergami? — I did. 
 
 Will you try to recollect with ac- 
 curacy whether yon did not see him at 
 Civita Vecchia walking with the Prin- 
 cess ? — The Princess and I frequently 
 walked out together, and Bergami 
 attended : he did not walk with us, 
 but a little way behind us. 
 
LADY C. LINDSAY 
 
 215 
 
 DW that happen every time yon 
 ■walked out ? — Every time, as far as I 
 can recollect. 
 
 Was there any other conrier in the 
 service of the Prhicess at that time? — 
 I believe there was another — Hieroni- 
 mus. He was with us. 
 
 Do you mean to say that Hieroni- 
 mus also walked out you ? — No, I do 
 not recollect that he walked out. 
 
 Did any other person sleep in the 
 division of the cabin where the Prin- 
 cess slept? — -Yes, her maid. 
 
 rf ave you the least doubt that he 
 did not walk out ? — I do not think that 
 I had the honour to walk out above 
 twice with her Royal Highness. 
 
 Did you not say just now that you 
 talked out with the Princess several 
 times ? — I might walk out three times, 
 but at this moment I do not call to my 
 mind ratJt-e than twice. 
 
 Perhaps you Avill not swear that you 
 did not walk out five or six times? — I 
 can swear that we did not. 
 
 But you will not swear that you did 
 
 not walk out four times ? — I think not. 
 
 But every time you did walk out, 
 
 the courier who accompanied you was 
 
 Bergami ? — He was. 
 
 Will you take upon you to swear 
 that on none of those occasions her 
 Royal Highness walked arm in arm 
 with Bergami? — I have no recollection 
 of it. 
 
 Will you take upon yourself to 
 swear that she did not? — I can only 
 say I have no recollection of it: as 
 far as I recollect, Bergami attended 
 at a little distance, unless he was 
 called to be asked a question. 
 
 Then I understand that you will.not 
 swear that, the Princess did not on 
 that occasion walk arm in arm with 
 Bergami? — I certainly do not recollect 
 that she did. 
 
 But you will not swear that she did 
 not? — 1 cannot positively swear, but I 
 never was struck by it. 
 
 Why, if such a thing had happened, 
 must it not have struck you? — I 
 suppose it would, and therefore I 
 imagine it did not happen. 
 
 But you will not swear that it did 
 not? — 1 will not swear it, because she 
 might have taken his arm on some 
 paKicular occasion : that might have 
 happened without my being struck by 
 it as extraordinary. 
 
 You said just now that it must have 
 struek you ? — If they had walked arm 
 in arm it would have struek me. 
 
 Then, though they did not walk arm 
 in arm, the Princess might take hre 
 arm at Civita Vecchia? — She might, 
 but I have no recollection of the cir- 
 cumstance. 
 
 You filled the office of lady of the* 
 bed chamber? — I did. 
 
 That did not necessarily lead you 
 into her Royal Highness's bed-room ? 
 — Very frequently it did : frequently 
 she sent for me. 
 At Naples? — At Naples. 
 Was the Princess always alone on 
 those occasions ? — Not always alone, 
 certainly ; sometimes there were per- 
 soiis Avith her. 
 
 Do you recollect ever upon these 
 occasidns seeing Bergami in the bed- 
 room? — I have seen him myself in tb* 
 bed-room, because we dined in the 
 bed-room. I dined in the bed-Toom 
 with the Princess and William Austin, 
 and Bergami used to wait upon us as 
 servant. 
 
 During the time you were at Naples ? 
 — Yes. 
 
 Did any other person, except Wil- 
 liam Austin, yourself, and the Princess, 
 dine upon these occasions ? — No, no- 
 body but we three dined, but other 
 servants used to come in and bring 
 the dishes. 
 
 Did that happen frequently at Na- 
 ples ? — Yes, it happened whenever 
 her Royal Highness had not company 
 to dinner, excepting one day when I 
 had leave of absence to go to Pompeii. 
 Did Bergami always wait on these 
 occasions? — ^I think he did, but I can- 
 not positively swear. 
 
 When was it you quitted the service 
 of her Royal Highness?— In 1817. 
 
 Had any application been made to 
 you to join her Royal Highness in 
 Gennany before you took the resolu- 
 tion of quitting ? — Yes, there had. 
 
 How long before ? — I cannot ac- 
 curately remember how^ long. 
 
 Was any proposition made by her 
 Royal Highness to appoint Colonel 
 Lindsav her chamberlain? 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM objected to this 
 question. His objection was only that 
 which his learned friends had so often 
 urged — that if the proposition were 
 made in writing, no questions could 
 be put regarding its contents. 
 
 The LORD/CHANCELLOR was 
 
 inclined to think that the question 
 
 might be pot, if it arose out of the. 
 
 examination in chief. 
 
 The question was repeated, and 
 
2i3 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM again urged his 
 objection. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR said, 
 that if the objection wrre taken, it 
 rntst be argued, and as 4 o'clock, liad 
 arrived, it might be proper to adjourn 
 it till to-morrow. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM. I am willing 
 to concede any thing rather than delay 
 your lordships. — The house adjourned 
 at 4 o'clock. 
 
 FRIDAY, Oct. 6. 
 
 Cross-examination of Lady CHAR- 
 LOTTE LINDSAY, sontinued bv 
 the SOLICITOR-Gl XERAL. 
 
 Tiiere was a garden in the neigh- 
 bourhood of Naples called La Fet- 
 terino. I walked in that garden with 
 the Princess. Bergami was present. 
 In going from Naples to Rome I tra- 
 velled in the same carriage with her 
 Royal Highness. Bergami travelled 
 as courier on that occasion. I also 
 went with the Princess in the same 
 carriage from Rome to Civita Vec- 
 chia. I do not know whether Bergami 
 travelled as courier on the latter oc- 
 casion. I recollect Bergami, in the 
 former part of the journey, coming up 
 to the carriage after he had been 
 called, when the Princess gave him 
 some provisions fand something to 
 drink, which she had in the carriage. 
 I presume he came when called, from 
 its being more natural than that he 
 should come without being called. 
 There was a- bottle of wine in the car- 
 riage. Bergami drank from that 
 Lottie. I cannot say whether he re- 
 turned that bottle. Her Royal High- 
 ness and I had finished our refresh- 
 ment before he came up. Whether 
 he returned the bottle or threw it 
 away I am not certain. I rather think 
 he returned the bottle into the car- 
 riage. After I had made up ray mind 
 to quit her Royal Highness I have no 
 distant recollection that I said ** it 
 was a vast relief to my mind in having- 
 come to the resolution to quit her 
 Royal Highness." I might have said 
 that, but I do not know that I ever 
 did ; I certainly do not recollect ever 
 having said, " that it was a great re- 
 lief to my mind in having come to the 
 resolution to quit her Royal Highness, 
 for that I considered that no woman 
 who had any regard to her character 
 would stop in her service.'* I do not 
 recollect having stated any words to 
 
 that effect, or any such words. I can 
 say I did not make use of any such 
 words; I have no recollection of hav- 
 ing us<d Ihem. I think it is extremely 
 improbable that I should have made 
 use of SHch words. I have no recol- 
 lection whatever of having made use 
 of words to that effect; and I repeat, 
 I do not think it probable that 1 <lid. 
 Ujion quitting her Royal Highness it 
 is possible I might have said, " that 
 if it had not been for an anxious dc- 
 sito to assist a particular individual , 
 out of the savings, of that service, I 
 would have quitted her Royal Hliih- 
 ncss long since." I do not think, if I 
 did use these words, that the former 
 conversation, to which allusion has 
 been made, passed at the same time. 
 I do not think they were accompanied 
 by an ill opinion of the Princess — -as 
 far as I recollect, I think they were 
 not so. I have no kind of recollection 
 of it; and I think it was not at all 
 probable. In my former evidence I 
 stated that some communication had 
 been made from Lord Guildford. I 
 have no recollection whether this 
 communication was before or after,.or 
 about the same time of that com- 
 munication. I do not know whether ' 
 it was after I had actually resigned. 
 I think, on consideration, what 1 said 
 about the application of my salary 
 must have taken place after the com- 
 munication adverted to. 
 
 Re-examined by Dr. LUSHING- 
 TON. — The conversation in which I 
 have alluded, and to which the Soli- 
 citor-General has examined me — was 
 with my husband and with my hus- 
 band alone P Mr. Lindsay has been in 
 distressed circumstances. He has 
 been so ior many years. Other cir- 
 cumstances induced me vphen in the * 
 service of her Royal Highness to 
 feel uneasy. My feelings were a good 
 deal agitated from the recent death , 
 of two near relatives. I allude to the 
 late Lord Guilford and Lady Glen- 
 bervie. While I was in the service 
 of the Queen, I myself never observed 
 any impropriety in her conduct. Nor 
 did any motive of that sort induce 
 me to quit her service. 
 
 Examined by Lord DONOUGB- 
 MORE. — From the value which your 
 explanation must have upon this case, 
 I am bound to trouble you with a few 
 questions. You have stated how long 
 you were with her Majesty after yonr 
 arrival at Naples till you quitted her. 
 
LADY C. LINDSAY. 
 
 247 
 
 Tin's, I belipve, in tbe wTiole anioiiMte.l 
 o«ly to tufuty-foiir day-*. Your ev- 
 fK-rien(re theretbre jis to the projuiety 
 of lier Mnjenty's coiufuct only extends 
 to twenty-four days? — That was all in 
 Italy. 
 
 Lord DONOUGHMORE. — It is 
 to tliat part of her Majesty's conduct 
 while ia Italy that you are brought 
 here to speak, and dining that twenty 
 four days yon observed no impropriety 
 dn the 'part of her Majesty in iier in- 
 tercourse with Bergami? — None. 
 
 What part of her Majesty's English 
 Bnite was with her at Naples? — Sir 
 William Gell. 
 
 Did he remain with her ?— N6 ; he 
 resigned before we quitted Najiles, on 
 •account of his health. 
 
 Was the Hon. Berkcly Craven 
 Uiere?— Kc was; he also resigned. 
 
 VV^as Captain Hesse in her Majesty's 
 service at Naples ? — Captain Hesse 
 was there; but I don't know whether 
 he \^s in her Majesty's service or not. 
 Captain Hesse did not quit her Ma- 
 jesty's service at Naples. He was in 
 her service at the time mentioned. I 
 am not aware that Ber^mi's sister 
 Fatistlna, joined hi?T service at Naples. 
 I think 1 hrive seen Louis Bergami at 
 Naples; but I cannot speak With cer- i 
 taiuty thftt he entered her service; 
 nor did' I hear of Bergj^iiti's hroiher 
 ^nteHn|*lie'r sie»«vice. 1 doh't femtRln- 
 h*T to liave se'efta child t>f Bergarai's 
 about her Majesty's person. There 
 was nothing in the conduct of her Ma- 
 jesty, that I hads«en, ^hidl iridated 
 me to t^int hiit Aliijesty'a servikjit?, 
 
 The noble lord aske^ her ladyship if 
 fhe had heard any reports prejudicial 
 ^o her Majesty's char'acter, which in- 
 duced her to quit her servicfe ? 
 
 MR. BROUGHAM inter{)osed ; 
 however objectionable this question 
 was, yet ho had u« objection to admit 
 that there were most scandalous and 
 infamous reports circulated prejudi- 
 cial to her Majesty's character by some 
 base hirelinsrs. 
 
 Hie LOKD-CHANCELLOR said 
 it was imp6s»ii*le that the House could 
 receive in evidence any report* that 
 the witness might hare heard. The 
 Honse was to decide upon facts, not 
 upon reports. 
 
 Examination resnraed :— I did not 
 see any tiling improper in the conduct 
 of her Majesty, bnt the reports which 
 I had heard concerning her conduct 
 Pftrp of s« unpleasant and dtgra(|ing 
 
 a nature, as to mak^ me think it tra» 
 not proper to remaiu any longer in her 
 Majesty's service. 
 
 By Lord FALKLAND :— I thoncjl^ 
 her Majesty's conduct towards h^i* 
 servants was extremely nffable ahfl 
 familiar. I think the higher classes In 
 this conntiy are more apt to be con- 
 descending atid kind in their conduct 
 towards their servants thah persbhis In 
 the ranks beneath them towardif! fhr"rr 
 servants, and I thlrik her Royal Higft- 
 ness^ manner towards servants wAt 
 peculiarly kind and condescending. I 
 ani iiol a very good judge of the con- 
 duct of foreigners towards their ser- 
 vants, btit I Irave observed that they 
 are more apt to converse fathllrarly 
 with their Sfervants than the English 
 people. They ai^e less reserved thaA 
 the English towards their servants. 'X 
 have observed in her Majesty's cott'- 
 duct towards her servanis the sanie 
 familiarity that I have remarked in fo- 
 reigners. Her Majesty's familiariry in 
 this respect did not greatly exceed that 
 which I iiave discovered in foreigiier^, 
 from the opportunities 1 have had* of 
 seeing. When f said that I had nfft 
 observed any impropriety in the'cdt^- 
 dnct of her Majesty towards B^rgaiHl, 
 or any impropriety in his cohdficjt 
 towards her, I had reference to thie 
 peculiarity of behaviour to which t 
 have adverted With respect to the treat- 
 ment of servants by foreigners. Thefe 
 was nothing in her Majesty's conduct 
 towards her servants which struck nte 
 as unbecoming her staiiAn and rant. 
 Her Royal Hijglmess appeared to me to 
 speak to Bergami as she used to Si- 
 card, and various other person's in her 
 family. 
 
 By Lord LAUDERDALE : -lila 
 lordship asked the witness whether 
 her brother had communicated any 
 reports to her concerning her Ma- 
 jesty's conduct, and had advised h(?r to 
 quit her Majiesty's service. — (This ques- 
 tion was objected to, and withdrawn.) 
 — The request made by my brother to 
 me, that 1 would apply to her Majesty 
 for money was made in writing. I 
 have not that letter now with me, 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM objected, thht 
 even if the witness had it with her, it 
 could not be evidence. 
 
 The next question put was as to the 
 contents of tlie letter, its purport, and 
 object, 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM again objected 
 to this question, as beiog still u.ore 
 
248 
 
 BErENCE OJ? THE QUEEN. 
 
 irregular, because, if the letter was in 
 existence, it must be produced ; and 
 its existence was not yet negatived. 
 At all events, the letter could not be 
 evidence. to i^ffect this case, because 
 ivritten by a third party to the witness. 
 -T-tAfter a short discussion, ia which 
 Lord Erskine, LordEldon, Lord Grey, 
 and Lord Liverpool took part, itseenied 
 to be considered as a preliminary point 
 to be established, that the letter was 
 not in existence before its contents 
 could be examined into. As to the 
 admissibility of it as evidence, was a 
 matter for further consideration when 
 tlie questiou was raised. The impres- 
 sion was, that in all events, it was not 
 admissible. 
 
 , Examination was resumed — I sup- 
 pose that when I entered her Majesty's 
 bed-room at Naples, as I have already 
 described, that I was sent for by her 
 Majesty. I don't recollect ever going 
 without being sent for ; but I recollect 
 that I did not knock at her door before 
 I entered. When I stated that there 
 was an arrangement between her Royal 
 Highness and myself that I should quit 
 her service at Naples, the proposal 
 came from me. Her Royal Highness 
 tire PEincessL of Wales wrote to me 
 wTien I was at Nice, to know if I had 
 any objection to continue in her ser- 
 vice, and I stated, that I should be 
 most happy to obey her Royal High- 
 nesses commands, but that as my bro- 
 ther was going to England, and as I 
 had occasion to be in En:,dand by the 
 beginning of the summer, I wished to 
 have the advantage of his escort, as I 
 could not very well travel by myself. 
 
 By the ATTORNEY-GENERAL, 
 tiirough the Lord -Chancellor. — I can- 
 not say in what month it was that I 
 quitted her Majesty's service, but I 
 should thii!k it was about , the month of 
 J[une or July, 1817. 
 
 Another discussion ensued, touching 
 the production of the letter adverted 
 to by Lord Lauderdale, with a view to 
 ascertain more clearly the motive of 
 Lady Lindsay's quitting her Majesty's 
 . service. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR said, 
 that, whatever might have operated oh 
 the witness's mind as an induceuientto 
 quit her Majesty's service, it was ut- 
 terly impossihle for the House to 
 i-eceive in evidence any reports circu- 
 lated in Italy, prejudicial to the Queen, 
 with a view to atFect her case. If it 
 was the pleasure of the House that 
 
 Lady Lindsay should search for the 
 letter in question, she might be ordered 
 to do so, but then it would-be to be 
 considered whether it was admissible. 
 Mr. BROUGHAM undertook that 
 the letter should be searched for, and 
 the witness then withdrew. 
 
 SIXTH WITNESS. 
 
 [Lord Llandaff.] 
 Lord LLANDAFF examined by 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.— I was in Italy ia 
 lbl5, and was accompanied by tlie 
 Countess of Llandaff. I went there in 
 November or December 1814, and con- 
 tinued for two years. During that 
 time the Countess and myself fre- 
 quently visited the Queen at her house. 
 We generally visited her once or twice 
 a week at Naples. We frequently 
 dined there. I more frequently visited 
 her evening parties. The Countess of 
 Llandatf accompanied me most gene- 
 rally. At the same time I think the 
 generality of the English and all the 
 Neapolitan noblesse of tho court visited 
 her. During the whole time that I had 
 any intercourse with the Princess I 
 never observed any impropriety in her 
 conduct. I never observed any thing 
 in the demeanour or habits of the 
 Princess which made it at all unplea- 
 sant for me to permit tfee Oountess to 
 continue her visits; ppt. in the least* 
 Bergami was at that time in the Queer's 
 service : I saw him constantly. I never 
 savir any thing in the manner oi her 
 Royal Highness towards him which 
 was at all improper. I afterwards met 
 the Princess at. Venice, in June and 
 July, 1815. I lodged at the same ho- 
 tel, the Grand Br^^gne. The Coun- 
 tess and I then renewed our intercourse. 
 In our visits at that time, I never ob- 
 served any thing in the slightest degree 
 improper in the conduct of Her Royal 
 Highness. When lodging in the same 
 hotel, I have frequently gone into the 
 the Queen's sitting room of a morning. 
 Her room was opposite to mine. On 
 these occasions, I will not lake upon 
 myself to say whether I knocked at. 
 her door or not. I rather think I have 
 gone in without knocking. I had a 
 child with me, to whom the Queen 
 took a fancy, and I used to walk into 
 her room with the child, and I don't 
 recollect whether I have knocked at 
 the door or not. I have been in Italy 
 two years, and I am very well ac- 
 quainted with the manners of the coun- 
 
HON. KEPPEL CRAVEN. 
 
 249 
 
 try. In Italy it is a constant practice 
 for me«, as well as women, to visit 
 ladies'iu their bed-rooms, in the course 
 of the morning. It is as much tlie prac- 
 tice tor men as women to do so. It is 
 also an ordinary practice, in Italy, for 
 men to vi^it ladies in their bed of a 
 morning. Speaking of my own linow- 
 ledgc, practice, and experience (a 
 laugh), I have visited ladies in their 
 beds. That was in ihe ordinary inter- 
 course of society. They were ladies 
 of unimpeachublc character and con- 
 duct. 
 
 Have you seen other gentlemen visit 
 ladles in the same manner? — Fre- 
 quently. I have been with other gen- 
 tlemen at the same Httie. My brother 
 and I have frequently gone together to 
 pay a morning visit to a lady in bed. 
 
 CROSS-EXAMINATION. 
 
 Cross-examined by the ATTOR- 
 NEY-GENERAL.— I was at Venice in 
 July 1815. Bergami wasatthattlmein 
 her Royal Highuess's service. I did 
 not dine with her Majesty at Venice. 
 1 was at Venice two months. I don't 
 know how long the Queen was there. 
 When I spoke of visiting her Majesty 
 in her room, it was in her sitting-room, 
 and not in her bed-chamber. 
 
 By Lord LAUDERDALE.— I don't 
 recollect the names of any other of her 
 Majesty's attendants, but Bergami. 
 He was a man of a singular figure, and 
 I remembered him. I don't recollect 
 who pointed him out as Bergami ; but 
 he was pointed out to me at that time. 
 I never asked what his name was. 
 
 By a PEER, whose name we could 
 not iearn : — I never observed any thing 
 in the Princess's conduct calculated to 
 reflect disgrace on her own country. 
 
 By Lord ELLENBOROUGH.— I 
 was at the ball given by the Princess 
 at Naples, but I don't recollect seeing 
 her dress. 
 
 SEVENTH WITNESS. 
 fHoN. Keppbl Craven.] 
 
 The Hon. KEPPEL CRAVEN, 
 dressed in a court dress, as her Ma- 
 jesty's chamberlain, was next sworn; 
 and examined by Mr. DENMAN. 
 
 In 1814 I was in the service of the 
 Princess of Wales, as one of her cham- 
 berlains. I joined her Royal Highness 
 at Brunswick. I accompanied her 
 from Brunswick to Milan, and thence 
 
 :i2 
 
 to Naples. When I joined her, there 
 was no stipulation as to the time I 
 should continue in her service, but I 
 was to remain with her for as much 
 space of time as my affairs would allow 
 me to remain with her. I remained iu 
 attendance upon her Majesty for ra- 
 ther more than six months. I left her 
 at Naples, it was always understood 
 when I entered her service, that I 
 could not stay with her more than two 
 or three months. I remained with her 
 four months longer than I oaiginally 
 intended. When 1 was at Milan with 
 her there was a courier discharged by 
 her Majesty for bis misconduct. By 
 her INIajesty's desire I applied to the 
 Marijui.sGuisillieri, Lord-Chamberlain 
 to the Emperor of Austria, to recom- 
 mend a person to attend upon her Ma- 
 jesty in the capacity of courier. He 
 accordiugly recommended a person, 
 whom I afterwards found to be called 
 Bergami. He was recommended as a 
 person tit to be received and trusted 
 in the service of her Royal Highness. 
 He recommended him very strongly, 
 Bergami was described by the Marquis 
 to be a person whose family and con- 
 nections he well knew, and that he liad 
 for a long time taken an interest in 
 their welfare. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL ob- 
 jected to this course of examiiltition. 
 Bergami's origin, family, and connec- 
 tions had nothing to do with this in- 
 quiry. 
 
 Mr. DENMAN insisted, that all that 
 passed on this occasion was of the lastf 
 importance, inasmuch as the foremost 
 allegations of the bill was, " that tbe 
 Queen had associated herself with a 
 person of low condition, hired in a me- 
 nial capacity, who had raised him be- 
 yond his merits, to a situation of confi- 
 dence about her person." If it could 
 be shown — as would be shown — that 
 this person was a man of family, of the 
 highest connections in point of respec- 
 tability, though reduced in circum- 
 stances,he apprehended that the course 
 of evidence he was now pursuing, was 
 most essential to negative that part of 
 the case. After a few words from the 
 Lord- Chancellor, who thought the evi- 
 dence was clearly admissible, 
 
 The witness being again called ih, 
 his examination proceeded. — I did not 
 know any thing about Bergami previ- 
 ous to his being recommended by the 
 Marquis Guisillicri. I was directed to 
 make inquiries int« bis character, and 
 
250 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 in consequence of those inquiries 
 which I made of the Marquis, I told 
 her Royal Highness that Bergami was 
 recommended by a person who knew 
 himself and family for some time. I 
 communicated this to her Royal High- 
 ness. The Marquis expressed a hope 
 that Bergami would be promoted in 
 case he behaved well. He said he 
 might, in the mean time, remain in the 
 house as a servant out of livery. I do 
 not recollect that he stated any thing 
 particular about his family. I saw the 
 Marquis and Bergami twice together. 
 The former saluted him, and treated 
 him with civilitv. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL oh- 
 jected to any question trending merely 
 to show the manner in which Bergami 
 was treated by the Marquis. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR said 
 the witness might be asked what were 
 the circumstances of recommendation 
 he mentioned to her Royal Highness ? 
 Witness. — The Marquis told me he 
 had known Bergami's family for a long 
 time, and that he was particularly in- 
 terested about him. I went to Na- 
 ples with her Majesty. On our way 
 towards that place, not far from the 
 city, we were met by some officers of 
 the King of Naples, and by the King 
 himself soon after. We met them half 
 an hour before dark, about half-past 
 six. They came to meet her Royal 
 Highness I went that night to the 
 house taketi for her at Naples. I do 
 not recollect exactly the relative posi- 
 tion of all the apartments; but some 
 of the bed-rooms were highly inconve- 
 nient. There was not room enough for 
 the whole suite of her Royal Highness, 
 and in consequence of these inconve- 
 niences, Sir William Gell and I took 
 lodgings next day out of the house. I 
 recollect the King and Queen of Na- 
 ples calling on her Royal Highness, 
 and the next day after our arrival she 
 dined at court. In the evehing a con- 
 cert was given, and her Royal Highness 
 remained there till half-past eleven. I 
 left the concert with her. On the even- 
 ing following, she went to the opera. 
 Myself and the rest of the suite went 
 with her. Her Royal Highness went 
 from her own house to the palace, and 
 thencq to the opera. She sat in the 
 state box. The opera at Naples 
 always end« at a late hour. On that 
 night it ended rather later than usual 
 the dance was very long, and tiresome. 
 Her Royal Highness remained till all 
 
 was concluded, till the curta'ui drop- 
 ped. I recollect a masquerade ball 
 given by her Royal Highness at Naples. 
 I remember her having worn three 
 different dresses on that night. I 
 recollect two of them particularly, the 
 third not so well. One was the dre.vs 
 of a Turkish peasant; the second, I 
 was informed, was the Genius of His- 
 tory ; the other a Neapolitan dress. I 
 saw the Genius of History but a short 
 time on her Royal Highness, and 
 therefore do not recollect it particu- 
 larly. It did not appear to me in the 
 slightest degree indecent or improper. 
 I think it was a dress with white dra- 
 pery, which went up high, as far as I 
 can recollect. I think her Royal 
 Highness wore the Turkish dress be- 
 fore she put on that of the Genius of 
 History, because the Neapolitan dress 
 was the last she wore. I do not know 
 whether it would be possible to put on 
 that of the Genius of History without 
 taking off any part of the Turkish, 
 dress. I do not think it would be ne- 
 cessary to change the latter entirely, 
 for the purpose of putting on the dress 
 of the Genius of History. I attended 
 her Royal Highness from Milan to Na- 
 ples. 1 did not observe any degrading 
 familiarity between her and Bergami, 
 in the interval between his being en- 
 gaged at Milan and our departure from 
 Naples. I subsequently dined at the 
 table with her Royal Highness and 
 Bergami three times." I observed no 
 improper conduot on any of these occa- 
 sions. I saw the Countess of Oldi 
 once. She was not a person of vulgar 
 manners. I remembfer a conversation 
 with her Royal Highness with respect 
 to Wm. Austin, before our arrival at 
 Naples. Before we came into Italy I 
 told her Royal Highness that it would 
 be as well if Wm. Austin did not sleep 
 in the same room with her Royal High- 
 ness. I said the people of Italy might 
 make observations on it: and that he 
 was now of such an age as might give 
 rise to these observations. I do not 
 exactly know what his age then was. 
 It was more than six or seven : per- 
 haps about thirteen or fourteen. At 
 Naples I generally dined at the table 
 of her Royal Highness when there was 
 company. I saw Baron Ompteda fre- 
 quently there at dinner. A person 
 named Majochi had opportunities of 
 seeing Baron Ompteda, for he waited 
 at table on these occasions. I attended 
 on the Queen soon aft«r the death of 
 
HON. KEPPEL CRAVEN, 
 
 251 
 
 bis late Majesty. I came to Rome 
 soon after that eveut, and waited on 
 her Royal Highness. She left Rome 
 next day after my arrivah — [Here Mr. 
 Deiiman put a question as to the title 
 under which witness understood that 
 passports were granted for her Royal 
 Highness, and other official documents 
 were received hy, or delivered from 
 her. — This question being objected to, 
 was not pressed.] 
 
 The examination proceeded — The 
 Marquis Guisillieri is bow dead. 
 
 CROSS-EXAMINATION. 
 
 Cross-examined by the SOLICI- 
 TOR-GENERAL.— I do not exactly 
 recollect the day when I made the re- 
 commendation to her Royal Highness 
 respecting Wm | Austin's not sleeping 
 any longer in the same room. It was 
 before our arrival in Italy. The re- 
 commendation was prospective on my 
 part. I saw the Countess of Oldi at 
 Pesaro, at dinner. I supped once at 
 Pesaro at the same table with Ber- 
 gami. I also dined with him there 
 once. The third time we dined at the 
 same table, it was at Rome, the day 
 before her Royal Hoyal Highness left 
 it. I parted with her at Rome. The 
 dress of the Genius of History was not 
 the third her Royal Highness wore at 
 Naples on the night of the masquerade; 
 it was the second. I have no recollec- 
 tion of seeing Bergami at that ball. I 
 did not go into the room where her 
 Royal Highness dressed during any 
 part of that evening. I cannot say 
 whether the dress of the Turkish pea- 
 sant was taken off or not before that 
 of the Genius of History had been put 
 on. Sir William Gell and myself lived 
 6ut the house of her Royal Highness, 
 the whole time we were at Naples, 
 after the two first nights. We dined 
 with her Royal Highness. The first 
 gentleman in waiting remained in the 
 house all day. The room in which we 
 waited, was at the end of the rooms in 
 the first suite. There were two rooms 
 between it and her Royal Highness's 
 bed chamber. On the first night of 
 our arrival in Naples, I observed only 
 the relative position of my own room, 
 and that of the lady in waiting. I do 
 not know in what room Bergami slept. 
 i heard nothing mentioned about it. I 
 did not say I mads any representations 
 to Lady Charlotte Lindsay respecting 
 a certain circumstance I observed be- 
 
 tween Bergami and her Royal High- 
 ness on the terrace of the gardtu at 
 Naj)les. I said I made those repre- 
 sentations to a person at Naples. I 
 said I spoke to her Royal Highness 
 about it. The circumstance was, my 
 having seen her Royal Highness walk- 
 ing on the terrace, and Bergami near 
 her. He was also walking. The rea- 
 son why I made these representations 
 to her Royal Highness was, because I 
 knew there was a spy near her, and 
 therefore I thonirhtit necessary to cau- 
 tion her, thatsli*' might be on her gitard, 
 I heard by letter from England that 
 there was a spy near her, and 1 thought 
 it necessary to caution lu-r Jioyal High- 
 ness against any ;ip[teara«ce that might 
 be misconstrued. Her Royal High- 
 ness told me there were other persons 
 in the garden upon that occasion. I 
 did not see them. They might have 
 been there without my seeing them. I 
 do not know whether the terrace on 
 which I saw her Royal Highness vvajk- 
 ing on the occasion was near the cabi- 
 net adjoining her bed-room. I saw 
 them from the terrace on the opposite 
 side ©f the house, near the apartment 
 of Lady Elizabeth Forbes. I think 
 that terrace was higher than the one 
 on which her Royal Highness was 
 walking. Bergami was on the same 
 level with her Royal Highness while, 
 she was walking round the place. I 
 saw her only from one end of the ter- 
 race to the other, as she was goipg out. 
 I could then observe no other person 
 but Bergami. It was the only time I 
 saw them there. It was not long after 
 our arrival at Naples. I cannot say 
 exactly how long — more than a fort- 
 night, less than a month, but perhaps 
 a month. Her Royal Highness said 
 there were workmen then in the gar- 
 den, and that she took Bergami in there 
 to speak to the workmen. I did not 
 then see the workmen there. From 
 the part of the terrace near the apart- 
 ment of Lady Elizabeth Forbes I could 
 see to the extremity of the building. 
 I have been in the garden upon some 
 occasions, and saw workmen employed 
 there. I did not leave the service of 
 her Royal Highness till she quitted 
 Naples. I remember a short time be- 
 fore that Bergami came into the roohi 
 where Sir William Gell and 1 waited. 
 He often came there while we were in 
 waiting. He never wore his dress of 
 a courier upon these occasions, and 
 never took « chair oa coming into the 
 
25€ 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN, 
 
 room while Sir W. Gell and I were in 
 •waiting. I have been irequently at 
 the theatre of San Carlos with her 
 Royal Highness when I was in waiting. 
 I have been there when her Koyal 
 Highness was present, and I not of her 
 party. I was never there at a mas- 
 querade when her Royal Highness ap- 
 peared in a niasquo. I never was at a 
 masquerade at Naples while her Royal 
 Highness was in Naples, but once. 
 During all the time I had been at Na- 
 ples Bergami did not act in the capa- 
 city of a courier. He sometimes 
 ■waited at table. He acted as courier 
 only while travelling. * 
 
 To a question by Lord ERSKINE. 
 — If there was any gross indecency in 
 the dress of her Royal Highness while 
 at Naples, I must have observed it. — 
 I never saw; any thing immodest or 
 indecent in her dress. 
 
 To a question by the Earl of ROSE- 
 BERRY.— I understood that my ad- 
 vice respecting William Austin was 
 followed. In answer to further ques- 
 tions from Peers, he said, that Ber- 
 gami did not appear to have the fawn- 
 ing and sycophantic manner of an 
 ordinary Italian servant; but had 
 rather the manner of a superior per- 
 son. 
 
 In answer to a question from Lord 
 KLLENBOROUGH, he said that he 
 could not say what were Bergami's 
 manners while he was a servant; not 
 having had any opportunity of know- 
 ing; he could only speak of them 
 when he was elevated into a different 
 station, and when he had an oppor- 
 tunity of seeing him afterwards. 
 
 In answer to a question from the 
 Earl of LIVERPOOL, he said, that 
 he had no other reason than the letter 
 from England to induce him to give 
 the Queen a hint about the particu- 
 larity of her demeanour. It was a 
 hint he should have given of any body 
 else as well as Bergami. In tlie jour- 
 ney to Naples, some of the Queen's 
 gentlemen or pages were always near 
 her Majesty, as if a guard for her, 
 Hieronymous or Sicard, or some body 
 else of the household. 
 
 In answer to questions from the 
 Earl of LAUDERDALE, he said, 
 that when he arrived at Pesaro last 
 year, he saw Bergami for the first time 
 since his elevation. He was not 
 formerly introduced to him, nor could 
 he say whether Bergami spoke in any 
 particular manqer to his (Mr. Craven's) 
 
 servant, who might have been in the 
 room. William Austin came with 
 Bergami, and he (Mr. Craven) went 
 by invitation to sup with the Queen. 
 There were several persons at supper 
 with her Majesty, Colonel Vassali 
 and others. There was a lady at the 
 panty, who sung and played on the 
 piano-forte, but who she was, he could 
 not tell. Whrn they arrived at Na- 
 ples, the house appropriated to her 
 Majesty was found too small for the 
 whole suite, and he and others were 
 on that account obliged to seek for 
 lodgings elsewhere. 
 
 The vvituess vvas ordered to with- 
 draw. 
 
 EIGHTH WITNESS. 
 
 [Sir W^i. Gell.] 
 
 The next witness called in was Sir 
 WM. GELL, who in consequence of 
 having the gout, was indulged with a 
 chair. He stated that he filled the 
 office of chamberlain to her Majesty, 
 since about a month before she went 
 abroad. He remembered a courier 
 being discharged while they were in 
 Italy ; it was determined to discharge 
 him at Milan, though he went on to i 
 Florence. He was directed by the 
 Queen to enqaire for another. He 
 did so, and found Bergami, who was 
 recommended in the strongest manner 
 by the Marquis Guisillieri, the Aus- 
 trian grand chamberlain. The Mar- 
 quis had stated, and in the presence 
 of the Queen, that Bergami's family 
 were respectable, but had lost their 
 fortune by the French Revolution. 
 He reported him to be a very proper 
 person, and hoped that if he behaved 
 well, which he had no doubt he would, 
 that her Majesty would promote him. 
 He said that Bergami Avonld be found 
 to be a perfectly honest, honourable, 
 and trust-worthy man. He also re- 
 membered that when they were about 
 to leave Milan, the Marquis, in the 
 public streets, dressed in his full 
 Austrian uniform as grand chamber- 
 lain, with his deputy -chamberlain, 
 and others around him, enjbraced 
 Bergami before the people, and kissed 
 each of his cheeks. T*his was the 
 common customary salutation in Italy, 
 not from a superior to an inferior, but 
 among equals. 
 
 Some objection was taken by the 
 counsel for the Bill to the witness's 
 statement of the Marquis Guisillieri's 
 
SIR WM. CELL. 
 
 953 
 
 opinion of Rergami. It was justified 
 "by Mr. Dennian, who said they were 
 bound to shew tliat Bcrj^ami was not, 
 as he had been represented, a man of 
 mean and despicable station; and the 
 questions were then allowed to be put. 
 The witness then described the arrival 
 of the Queen at Naples, and her being 
 met at a little town near it by King 
 Joachim (Murat). He also remem- 
 bered her Majeity attending a lung 
 and tedious concert that night at the 
 palace, and retiring from it about 
 twelve o'clock. He also remembered 
 her going in state with Joachim's 
 family to the state box at the theatre 
 of St. Carlos, which was brilliantly 
 illuminated for her reception. The 
 entertainment was the opera of 
 Medea. He remembered also her 
 giving a grand party to the royal fa- 
 mily, in which on a sudden a door 
 opened and displayed two Neapolitan 
 conntesses and a marquis, putting an 
 olive wreath on Murat's bust. The 
 dress resembled as much as possible 
 Hope's Minerva. It was perfectly 
 modest. The dresses of the Coun- 
 tesses whom I have mentioned were 
 something of the same sort. From the 
 suddenness of tlieir appearance, how- 
 ever, and the quickness of their dis- 
 appearance was such, that it was im- 
 possible to discover any thing clearly. 
 It was like a flash of lightning, and 
 was meant to be so represented. I 
 quitted the Princess of Wales at 
 Naples. I was afraid of travelling 
 with her longer in the way which she 
 wished from the state of my health. 
 I was afflicted with the gout, and 
 was frequently attacked with it while 
 travelling. I saw her Majesty several 
 times after. I first saw her when she 
 was returning from Palestine. I met 
 her on the road, and accompanied her 
 to Rome. I renewed my attendance 
 on her as a matter of course. I re- 
 mained in waiting upon her Majesty 
 so long as she continued at Rome. 
 On that occasion I remember very 
 well that several persons of distinction 
 visited her Majesty. I presented 
 several of those individuals myself. 
 Among others the Count Blacas, the 
 minister of the House of Bourbon. 
 I remember this particularly, for at 
 the same time that he was presented, 
 the minister of the House of Braganza 
 arrived, and announced himself as the 
 mini3tcr of the House of Bourbon 
 
 also. The same year I was in at- 
 tendance on her Majesty at the Villa 
 Rosinetta, and the Villa Brande. I 
 remained in attenilance on this occa- 
 sion three months or rnthcr more. 
 At that time I remember several per- 
 sons of distinction visiting the Queen. 
 I quitted her Majesty at this period 
 because she was going to the North 
 to settle some aflairs, and she gave nie 
 leave to go to Naples. The Queen 
 was going to the Lake of Como. — ^A 
 large party was engaged to go with 
 her Majesty to the Villa Como, among 
 whom we saw the Prince of Saxe 
 Cobourg and the Princess of Lich- 
 tenstein. But her Majesty resolved 
 to sell her villa, and she did not go. 
 I was in attendance two days when 
 the Queen was last at Rome. On that 
 occasion I saw the passport, or rather 
 the order, for post-horses, which had 
 been applied for and obtained for her 
 Majesty. The order was signed by 
 Cardinal Gonsalvi, the secretary to 
 the Pope. Four other gentlemen saw 
 it besides myself. 
 
 The witness was then asked as to 
 the contents of this document, when — 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL ob- 
 jected to any question being asked to 
 the contents of a written document. 
 The instrument itself ought to be 
 produced. He also doubted whether 
 in point of fact this paper, even if it 
 were produced, cotiUI be considered 
 inaterial to the case under their lord- 
 ships' consideration. 
 
 Mr. DENMAN apprehended that 
 from the decisions wliich their lord- 
 ships had already made, the contents 
 of the document in question might be 
 obtained by parole evidence. As to 
 its materiality this was a point on 
 which he was perfectly prepared to 
 satisfy their lordships. It was im- 
 portant to show to their lordships 
 the wanner in which the Queen of 
 Enjrland had been treated by the se- 
 cretary to the Pope, and this too 
 under the influence of the Hanoverian 
 minister. She had been described in 
 this passport as the Princess Caroline 
 of Brunswick, although already re- 
 cognised as the Queen of this countr}'. 
 Thus degraded from her title, without 
 a trial, and by the instructions of the 
 individuals who had been instructed 
 to bring forward this prosecution, to 
 collect evidence, and to corrupt the 
 witnesses, who, he might now say. 
 
254 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 without the fear of contradiction, had 
 been convicted of perjury before their 
 lordships. 
 
 After some discussion, the LORD- 
 CHANCELLOR was of opinion that 
 the question could not be put consis- 
 tently with the forms of law, and it 
 was withdrawn. 
 
 The examination of the witness was 
 then continued. She saw Bergami 
 with the Queen at Rome several times. 
 In the intercourse between the Queen 
 and Bergami, she saw nothing im- 
 proper. BerjE;ami conducted himself 
 towards the Queen with the most 
 marlied att<'ntion ; but there was 
 nothing in his manners singular, nei- 
 ther was there on the part of the 
 Queen. The Countess of Oldi was in 
 attendance at the Villa Brande. I 
 had no opportunity of judging of her 
 manners ; she was not a person of low 
 or vulgar manners ; she is very pleas- 
 ing—a rather good looking modest 
 lady. It is very usual for men-servants 
 to go into ladies* bed-rooms in Italy. 
 I have been in the East, and have 
 seen Moorish dances, both in the East 
 and in Spain. It was very like the 
 Spanish Bolero danced at our theatres. 
 It was common in every part of Italy, 
 and, I believe, prevails from Madrid 
 to ChiHa. Ladies are constantly pre- 
 sent at its performance. 
 
 The witness then underwent a cross- 
 examination by Mr. PARK, but his 
 answers were not important. 
 
 Examined by Lord ERSRINE.—I 
 never on any occasion saw any thing 
 improper whatever in the conduct of 
 the Princess or Bergami towards each 
 other. 
 
 Lord ELLENBOROUGH.— Did 
 you observe any thing in the conduct 
 of the Princess towards Bergami in 
 her conversation, manners, or looks, 
 to induce you to entertain the idea 
 that there was an adulterous inter- 
 coHrse between them? — Upon my 
 honour, I never saw the Queen speak 
 to Bergami buton matters of business, 
 though I was in the house three months 
 together. 
 
 I wish for a more distinct answer? 
 — (The question was read over to the 
 witness.) — I never did. 
 
 Was there any thing in the manners 
 of Bergami which made it disagree- 
 able to you as a gentleman to share 
 with him the duties of chamberlain ? 
 — On the contrary, he was remarkably 
 attentive to me. He would have 
 
 handed me down stairs with a candle 
 if I would have let him; but I was 
 obliged to explain to him that being 
 lame it hurried me, and I would ratlier 
 he let it alone. 
 
 Do you consider that conduct of 
 Bergami the conduct of a gentleman ? 
 — Perfectly so, to me. 
 
 Did Bergami, while you were with 
 her Royal Highness, take more than 
 his share of the duties o4' chamberlain ? . 
 — Certainly not. 
 
 Did you observe any thing in the 
 conduct of Bergami towards tiie Prin- 
 cess that would have been different 
 from that of an English gentleman ?— 
 Nothing, but that he was more att^eu- 
 tive. (Some laughter.) 
 
 The Earl of ENNISKILLEN.— 
 Whkt was the hour of the night at 
 which the Queen returned from the 
 Opera? — About one o'clock. 
 
 You described that the Queen was 
 dressed on one occasion in a robe re- 
 sembling a Grecian female : I wish to 
 know whether that robe could be put 
 over any other dress she had on that 
 night without undressing? — Not only 
 must it be so, but 1 recollect the dress 
 her Majesty had underneath: it was 
 perfectly plain, it came up to the 
 neck, was very short, and had no 
 train. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR, at the 
 instance of the Solicitor-General. — 
 When the Princess appeared in the 
 Turkish dress, did she not wear 
 trowsers.^ — I happen to know what 
 the trowsers were, and I beg to ex- 
 plain them (explain ! explain !) They 
 are very much like the common petti- 
 coat, but sewed slightly between the 
 legs and at the bottom — such as they 
 are very often wern in the Levant. 
 
 Lord BROWNLOW.— When the 
 Princess went up stairs to change her 
 dress, had she any attendant to assist 
 her, and who was it? — To say the 
 truth, she had a great numiier of at- 
 tendants: the door was opened and 
 shut by every body who went in and 
 out of the room. 
 
 SATURDAY, Oct. 7. 
 Lord LIVERPOOL suggested,, 
 whether, if Lady Lindsay were in at- 
 tendance, it mfght not save her some 
 trouble by then calling her in, to 
 make any explanation which she might 
 think necessary as to the letter tJo 
 whichN^he yesterday alluded. 
 
WM. CARRINGTOX. 
 
 25.3 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said that Lady 
 Lindsay was not in attendance. 
 
 NINTH WITNESS. 
 
 WM. CARRINGTON sworn and 
 examined by Dr. LUSHINGTON.— 
 I am Sir Wni. Gell's valet. I have 
 been in that sitnation nine years. Be- 
 fore that I was a midshipman in the 
 navy. I attended Sir Wm. Geil the 
 latter end of 1814, at Naples. I lived 
 .in the honse of the Princess. I re- 
 member Btrgami coming into the 
 service of the Princess as courier. I 
 never heard of his coming into the 
 service of the Princess having excited 
 any jealousy. I never saw any jealousy 
 after he came into her service. I re- 
 member the first night we arrived at 
 Naples. I recollect that on that night 
 Bergami slept in a small room over 
 the steward's room. He did not sleep 
 in the same room the second night. 
 The reason was, that the room was so 
 low he could not stand up in it. I 
 remenaber the room he slept in the 
 second night, it was about sixty feet 
 from that of the Princess. There 
 w^erc three rooms and a passage be- 
 tween the Princess's room and Berga- 
 mi's. William Austin occupied the 
 first, Hierouymous the second, and 
 Dr. Holland the third. These three 
 rooms intervened between the room of 
 Bergami and that of her Royal High- 
 r* s the Princess of Wales. Some 
 of them opened into the passage. I 
 remember being at a masqued ball 
 given by the Princess at Naples, I 
 did not see the servants in any par- 
 ticular dress. I wailed upon that 
 occasion. I travelled in the suite of 
 the Princess in the jouiney to Naples. 
 I remember Mr. Wm. Austin. Before 
 we reached Naples Mr. Austin slept 
 in a room by hims'elf when there was 
 room. When there was not he Some- 
 times slept in her Royal Highness's 
 room. I know Majochi. I have 
 seen' him at Ruptnelli. I heard him 
 mention the name of Orapteda. 
 
 What (lid you hear him say respect- 
 ing him P 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL ob- 
 jected to this question. He was not 
 aware that any question had been 
 pat to Majochi as to whether he had 
 any conversation with a person of the 
 name of Carrington respecting Omp- 
 teda ; and therefore he apprehended 
 this question could not be put to this 
 
 witness for tht purpose of contradict- 
 ing Majochi on that point. 
 
 The SOLICITORGENERAL fol- 
 lowed in support of this objection, 
 and said it ought first to be stated 
 what answer of IMajochi's was meant 
 to be contradicted, and then to put 
 the question accordbigly. 
 
 Dr. LUSHINGTON persisted that" 
 the question was strictly relevant and 
 important to the decision of the pre- 
 sent subject. It was necessary to prove 
 that Ompteda had acted as a spy upon 
 her Majesty — to corrupt her servants, 
 to break open her private repositories, 
 and to commit other acts of the same 
 character. 
 
 Lord REDESDALE moved that 
 the counsel should withdraw. He 
 then submitted that there was no evi- 
 dence of the character described by 
 the counsel with reference to the Baron 
 Ompteda, and therefore the observa- 
 tions of the learned counsel were not 
 warranted. 
 
 Earl GREY could not conceive the 
 learned counsel was exceeding those 
 demands which his duty demanded. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR said, 
 that this was the first time he had ever 
 heard it attempted to prove the con- 
 duct of a third person— for instance 
 Baron Ompteda— by the evidence ot 
 a conversation with a second. This 
 was quite inconsistent with the rules 
 of evidence. 
 
 After' some further observations 
 from Lord Erskine and Lord Lauder- 
 dale, counsel were again called in. 
 
 Dr. LUSHINGTON said, that hi« 
 object was to show, that the conduct 
 of the Baron Ompteda was such as 
 ought to be examined in the progress 
 of this case, and further to prove, by 
 reference to that conduct, the necessity 
 which was imposed upon her Royai 
 Highness of having confidential per- 
 sons i>leeping near her person. The 
 learned counsel then referred to the 
 testimony of Majochi, in which he de- 
 nied any knowledge of the Baron 
 Ompteda, and urged that it was im- 
 portant to diseredit this assertion, by 
 shewing the fact of his positive con- 
 nection with the Baron, as well as to 
 shew a variety of other points upon 
 which he had professed his ignorance, 
 but in which he had been actually en- 
 gaged with this very Baron. Majochi 
 denied all knowledge of a plot ; if he 
 (Dr. Lushingion) could prove that he 
 had spoken uf the plot, and was in the 
 
956 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 Labit of speaking aboui. locks and keys, 
 and of the Baron Ompteda corrupting 
 servants after servants, be apprehend- 
 ed he ought not to be shut out from 
 such proofs. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM supported the 
 propriety of the course of examination 
 proposed by his learned friend. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR said, 
 much time might have been saved by 
 stating the matters to which with re- 
 ference to Majochi's evidence, it was 
 proposed to examine the witness. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL rei- 
 terated liis objection, and contended 
 that before a witness was contradicted, 
 as to a particular conversation, it was 
 Decessary to have pointed his attention, 
 in his examination, to the conversation 
 which was meant to be so contradicted, 
 Majochi was never asked whether he 
 had had any conversation with Wil- 
 liam Garrington, and therefore no evi- 
 dence could now be let in to prove 
 that such a conversation had taken 
 place. He had heard much of the con- 
 duct of Baron Ompteda ; but denied 
 that there was any proofs which en- 
 titled his learned friends to observe 
 that the things stated by them were true. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR, after 
 stating the nature of the difficulty, ex- 
 pressed his opinion, tliat, imder all cir- 
 cumstances, the best mode, perhaps, 
 would be to adopt the same course 
 they had hitherto acted upon, and refer 
 the matter to the judges. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE said, if the^exami- 
 nation of this witness must now be 
 built merely on what Majochi formerly 
 said, he did not see how in fairness the 
 question could be objected to. He 
 thought her Majesty's counsel had a 
 right, in their questions, not merely to 
 refer t© what Majochi formerly said, 
 but with such commentaries as they 
 might think the nature of his evidence 
 required. Their lordships were to 
 look, in the minutes, to Majochi's pre- 
 vious statements, and tlie only thing 
 now proposed by counsel was to show 
 that his statements, with respect to 
 this point, must have been such as he 
 knew not to be true at the time they 
 were made by him. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM hoped their lord- 
 ships would allow him simply to state 
 what the proposition was. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL ob- 
 jected to Mr. Broughanj's being heard 
 any further upon the subject, after hav- 
 ing spoken to it so often before. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR said 
 it was quite at the option of the hou»e 
 how often they would hear Mr. 
 Brougham. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said their object, 
 in putting the question objected to, 
 was, to shew that what Majochi, in his 
 cross-examination, said, six times, he 
 did not remember, and tuice he did 
 not know, had been detailed by him 
 at length to another person. He (Mr. 
 Broughrm) would submit to their lord- 
 ships, that it was now competent to 
 him to prove that Majochi once le- 
 membered this in all its details; {that 
 these details were such as he could 
 not forget, and that he mentioned such 
 circumstances to the present witness 
 as made it clear that the matter could 
 not escape his memory. — They (the 
 counsel f^r the Queen) contended that 
 Majochi having sworn twice to his ig- 
 norance of a certain thing, and having, 
 sworn repeatedly that he did not re- 
 member it, they had a right to shew 
 that the details given by him to this 
 witness were such as he could not so 
 soon have forgotten. The rule of law, 
 he apprehended, allowed that a ne- 
 gative declaratioa to another person 
 might be proved. It was not denied 
 that he (Mr. Brougham) had a right to 
 ask the witness, Carrington, what Ma- 
 jochi said. He had now, with respect 
 to this point, no means of throwing 
 discredit on the testimony of Majoclu, 
 than by showing that he made a decla- 
 ration, or said something to Carring- 
 ton of which he afterwards denied the 
 knowledge, though the thing was de- 
 tailed by him in such a way, and was 
 of such a nature as could not so soon 
 escape his recollection. His learned 
 friends argued, that by a previous dis- 
 cussion a general question could not 
 be put. But even though the King's 
 Bench ruled thus, it should be con- 
 sidered that their lordships had prece- 
 dents of the order to go by. They 
 would find one in the case of the Du- 
 chess of Kingston. In the case also 
 of Elizabeth Parry, tried at the Old 
 Bailey, they would find, that the court 
 did not consider themselves tied down 
 by the rule of King's Bench. Suppose 
 it was a fact, and not a declaration, to 
 which Majochi js wore ignorance. Sup- 
 pose he was asked whether he knew 
 any thing ab9ut the picking of a lock, 
 at which himself was present, and for 
 which a person had been turned out. 
 If he said be kaew uothiug about it, 
 
WM, eARRtNGTOH". 
 
 25T 
 
 would it not he comf etent to him (Mr. I 
 Hioiitjham) to shew tkat he was pre- 
 sent at the attempt, and also when the 
 person was turned out of it ? Tlicre 
 was a case in which the evidence 
 would refer, not merely to a declara- 
 tion, but where it would go to prove 
 tliat he was bodily present. This was, 
 no doubt, a difteront mode of showing 
 that he had sworn falsely. But it was 
 tar stron«fer, as the declaration came 
 out of his own mouth. The question 
 respecting his declaration could not 
 have been put to Majochi in his cross- 
 examination, because the circumstance 
 was not known at the time. It would 
 be too hard to shut them out now from 
 the opportunity. 
 
 The AT'JORNEY GENERAL 
 said, the question put to Majochi was, 
 whether he knew of any dispute hav- 
 ing taken place between Lieutenant 
 Hownam and Baron Ompteda. He 
 »aid he recollected nothing about it, 
 and his learned friend (Mr. Brougham) 
 now proposed to call a witness for the 
 purpose of shewing that, from a con- 
 versation which took place two or three 
 years back, it was to be inferred Ma- 
 jochi had knowledge of this quarrel; 
 though, had he been cross-examined 
 as to the fact of his having made any 
 such declaration, he (the Attorney- 
 General) would have had in the re 
 examination an opportunity of showing 
 what took place at the conversation, 
 by which the effect of an apparent 
 contradiction might be done away. 
 He was surprised to hear his learned 
 friend (Mr. Brougham) argue this in 
 the mannerlie did. A fact and a con- 
 versation were totally different things. 
 A conversation might be explained. 
 It was not so with respect to a fact. 
 The point here was a declaration said 
 to have been made by Majochi, and he 
 wmiid contend that such a declaration 
 eould not be brought forward to in- 
 validate his testimony, ns Majochi had 
 not previously denied the conversa- 
 tion, in which such declaration was 
 liatd to have been made. Had he been 
 asked whether such a conversation 
 took place, there might be some ground 
 for the question. Now he apprehend- 
 ed there was none at all. His learned 
 friend had not laid the slightest foun- 
 dation for it. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE did not mean to 
 say, that upon this point their lord- 
 ships were to abide by the rtdc of law, 
 as it might be laid aside by the judges. 
 33 
 
 I'or himself, however, whatever might 
 be their de»-Jsiou, he should still con- 
 tinue of opinion that the question 
 might be put. If their lordships 
 wished to avoid the embarrassment of 
 a possible dissent from the decision of 
 the learned judges, he saw no reason 
 why Majochi might not be called 
 again to the bar, and confronted with 
 the other witness. This he (Lord 
 Erskine) frequently saw in the course 
 of his practice. As a peer, he must 
 give it as his opinion, that this evi- 
 dence might be received. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR 
 thought the best mode would be to 
 consult the judges. Their lordships^ 
 however, would not be bound to abide 
 by their decision. They might dissent 
 from them if they pleased. He did 
 not deny that the witnt-ss Majo«ht 
 might be called up again, but the best 
 course, in his opinion, would be to as- 
 certain what was the practice in tha 
 courts below. If it was their Iord-» 
 ships' pleasure, he would shape the 
 question to be put to the jndges in the 
 following manner; — " Whether, in the 
 courts below, a witness, in the cross- 
 examination, being asked whether h« 
 knew of a dispute having taken place, 
 said he had no knowledge of it, not 
 being asked at the same time whether 
 he made, in conversation, any declara- 
 tion of such knowledge; and after, in 
 the defence, a witness being asked aa, 
 to whether such a declaration had been 
 made, it was consis.tent with practice 
 to put this question ? Secondly, Whe- 
 ther a witness having said that he did 
 not remember any such dispute, and 
 having said not, it was consistent with 
 the practice in the courts below to ask 
 a witness for the defence, whether he 
 who made such denial, did not, in con- 
 versation, detail those circumstances, 
 the recollection of which he pre- 
 viously denied in his cross-examina- 
 tion." 
 
 The Marquis of LANSDOWN 
 thought the best mode would be to 
 ask the counsel on both sides whether 
 they had any objection to have Ma- 
 jochi called up again. 
 
 After a few words from the Earl of 
 Lauderdale, the Lord-Chancell«r, and. 
 the Solicitor-General, the question 
 was referred to the judges, who im- 
 mediately retired. 
 
 LADY C. LINDSAY. 
 Immediately after the Judged re- 
 tired, Lady Charlotte Lindsay ap- 
 
258 
 
 DEFENCE OP THE QUEEN. 
 
 peared at the bar, and gave the fol- 
 lowing evidence in answer to questions 
 by the Lord Chancellor and the Earl 
 of Lauderdale: — I have searched for- 
 the letter referred to in my previous 
 examination, and have not been able 
 to find it. I have no reason to think 
 it is in the possession of any other per- 
 son. I hive no distinct recollection 
 of any thing contained in the letter, 
 but the advice of my brother that I 
 should abandon my situation with her 
 Royal Highness, and some pecuniary 
 arrangements referred to in it. I do 
 not recollect what cause he assigned 
 for this, but I have some idea tliat the 
 cause which I before alluded to, in an- 
 swer to a question put by a noble lord, 
 might have been mentioned in it. — 
 The reports I mentioned before of an 
 unpleasant and disgraceful nature, 
 wera what influenced me to resign my 
 situation. 
 
 By Lord ERSKINE.— Were these 
 reports contradicted by your own ex- 
 perience and observation ? 
 
 The question being objected to, 
 
 Lady Charlotte Lindsay llien with- 
 drew. 
 
 The Earl of LAUDERDALE sug- 
 gested the propriety of the judges 
 being present during any legal argu- 
 ment upon the admissibility or inad- 
 missibility of a particular question. 
 
 Lord HOLLAND was entirely of a 
 ditFerent opinion ; coujd not see what 
 necessity there was for the judges 
 hearing any thing but the plain ques- 
 tion on the legality or illegality of 
 which their opinion was taken. This 
 opinion the judges might give if in the 
 adjoining room during the argument. 
 It was for the preservation of their 
 lordships' dignity, as well as that of the 
 judges, that their respective functions 
 should be well understood. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL sug- 
 gested, that the isame course upon this 
 point should be persevered in that had 
 been already adopted by the House. 
 
 TENTH WITNESS. 
 [John Whitcomb.] 
 JOHN WHITCOMB was called in 
 and sworn. The answers he gave Mr. 
 TINDAL, in his examination, were as 
 follow :— I am valet to the Hon. KEP- 
 PEL CRAVEN. I have lived in that 
 situation between six and seven years. 
 I was there when the Princess of Wales 
 went to Najplea. I do fiot recollect 
 
 where Bergami slept on the first niglit 
 of our arrival at Naples; but I per- 
 fectly well recollect M'here he slept on 
 the second night. There was a pas- 
 sage near the room, which went from 
 one end of the house to the other, back 
 and front. There were three rooms 
 intervened between Berganii's room 
 and the. Princess's. Mr. William Aus- 
 tin slept in one, Jeronymus in another, 
 and Dr. Holland in "the third. Dr. 
 Holland's room opened into one pas- 
 sage, and the room of Jeronymus into 
 auother. The doctor s door was at the 
 corner of the second passage, which 
 turned in the first. The door of Ber- 
 gami's room did not open into this pas- " 
 sage. I remember where Madame 
 Dumont slept. It was in the room over 
 Doctor Holland's. I have been fre- 
 quently in Madame Dumont's room 
 alone with her, and the door locked 
 and bolted. Sometimes the maid An- 
 nette was in the room with us, but sel- 
 dom for any long time when I was 
 there. 
 
 The door you say was locked and 
 bolted wlien you were alone in the 
 room with herr. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL ob- 
 jected to this question, the object of 
 which, he said, it was impossible not 
 to see. It was an illegal question, 
 and on that account he hoped their 
 lordships would not suffer it to be 
 put. 
 
 Mr. DENMAN said he had no wish 
 to put the question further. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR. — I 
 think, Mr. Denraan, you have put it 
 as far you could. (A laugh.) 
 
 Some conversation then took place 
 respecting the striking out of the mi- 
 nutes the last question, and it wai 
 struck out. 
 
 The witness's examination was re- 
 sumed. He said — I do recollect the 
 masqued ball given by the Princess at 
 Naples. I was there in attendance. 
 Not by order, but walking about for 
 my own amusement. I recollect some 
 of the servants of tiie Princess being 
 there in character early in the evening, 
 not all of them; I saw Sicard, Jerony- 
 mus, and Bergami there, in a sort of 
 Turkish dresses, the two former went 
 away early and changed into piain 
 clothes. I think I saw Bergami after, 
 also in plain clothes. I think I saw 
 hun handing lemonade, or some re- 
 freskment ; refreshments were hand- 
 ing about during t^e whple even- 
 
JOHN* WIIITCOMB. 
 
 £59 
 
 iiig. I was at Naples the whole time 
 the Princess was there. Ber^JUiiVs 
 demeanour to her Royal Highness 
 always appeared to me to be the same 
 as that of the other t^ervants of the 
 household. 
 
 CROSS-EXAMINATION. 
 
 Cross-examined bv the SOLICI' 
 TOR GENERAL.— i lived but three 
 or four days in the Princess's house 
 after her Royal Hiijhness's arrival at 
 Naples. I quitted the house to attend 
 Mr. Craven in his own lodgings. 
 There m as a long passage from the di- 
 rection of Bergami's room to that of 
 the Princess. In that passage there 
 were three rooms. In going along the 
 passage, you left Dr.' Holland's room 
 on the right; but leading into another 
 passage at the corner, and oppoiitc 
 Dr. Holland's room, there was a small 
 room unoccupic d, and next and imme- 
 diately beyond it, was Bergami's room ; 
 80 that Bergami's room was at the end 
 of one passage, and communicating 
 by a door with the other. There cer- 
 tainly was, therefore, a way of going 
 by the passages from Bergami's room 
 to the Princess's. Bergami's room 
 was a corner room, near a small cabi- 
 net wliich looked into the garden. 
 
 Counsel at both sides, said they were 
 done with this witness. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE said that the wit- 
 ness might witlidraw, but he (Lord E.) 
 had something to submit to their lord- 
 ships. They would recollect what 
 Bumont had said in a part of her tes- 
 timony ; he would recal to their lord- 
 ship's recollection the words -used by 
 the witness. Dumont was asked — 
 "Where did yon sleep at Naples ? — In 
 a little room np stairs. 
 
 Did you sleep alone there? — Yes, I 
 did sleep alone there. 
 
 Are yon sure yon slept alone there ? 
 , — ^Yes, 1 am sure I slept' alone there 
 every night. 
 
 The whole of •very night ? — Yts, 
 the whole of every night. 
 
 And alone? — Yes, and alone. 
 
 Every part of a night, and the whole 
 night alone ? — The whole night and 
 every part of the night alone. 
 
 Did you know where any of the gen- 
 4lemen'8 servantsslept ? No, I did not. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE said, that after 
 
 reading the extract from the evidence 
 
 of Dumont^ he should now propose 
 
 bat the last witness John Whitcomb 
 
 be called in and asked *' Was he dur- 
 ing the whole or any part of any night 
 in the room of Madame Dumont, and 
 she in bed in it?" 
 
 The SOLICITOR - GENERAL 
 humbly took an objection to this ques- 
 tion. It was clear that the object of 
 the questions just read by the noble 
 and learned lord, and which had been 
 put to the witness by the counsel for 
 her Majesty, was to insinuate that 
 somebody had been in the witness's 
 sleeping-room. It was clear, that le- 
 gally tiie witr.'^s could not, if she had 
 objected to the question, have been 
 pressed to give an answer. It wa» 
 equally clear, he thought, that if she 
 had been askod, whether she had slept 
 with any particular person, and denied 
 that she had, evidence could not bo 
 adduced to contradict her denial. If 
 he were right in that position of law, 
 the question about to be put by the no- 
 ble and learned lord was irregular. He 
 spoke this with great submission to the 
 noble and learned lord's experience 
 and talents. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE was of opinion that 
 he was right in putting the question. 
 He thought the learned counsel who 
 had cross-examined, M'ere not only en- 
 titled to ask her if she slept alone, but 
 also to prove how that f*act stood. 
 Over and over again he had followed 
 that course at the King's bar. Thongh 
 he contended thai the question might 
 be put, he was still perfectly ready to 
 admit that the witness was not bound 
 to answer. The noble and learned 
 lord then alluded to his own practice 
 in the courts below upon this subject, 
 and stated a conversation which he 
 had with Lord Ellenborough, whose 
 learning and talents he highly appreci- 
 ated. He said, in talking to the noble 
 lord, in the way of a suppositious case 
 — suppose in your walks in the im- 
 provements about Russel-square, some 
 fellow dared to charge you with the 
 commission of an infamous offence yon 
 had not committed, you would, I sup- 
 pose, send for me artd I should advo- 
 cate your cause. Suppose, continued 
 the noble and learned lord, that I had 
 every reason to believe the fellow was 
 infamous. Suppose on the trial, I 
 asked the feUow, who are you? A. 
 A captain of a ship. What ship? A, 
 She is gone to America. Suppose I 
 said, " Look nearer to me, Sir , I think 
 I recollect you; are yon not the very 
 man that I once unsnccessfully de- 
 
260 
 
 BI^FENCE OF THE QUEEN- 
 
 fended on a charge of returning from 
 transportation." He may, 1 know, ob- 
 ject to answer; hut the point is, have 
 I not a right to put the question, and, 
 should he deny the fact, then to prove 
 it by other testimony. If the learned 
 Solicitor-General's position were right, 
 the judge would say to nie — " No, you 
 cannot prove this now : but should 
 your noble friend be convicted, he can 
 
 Sress it in a motion for a new trial." 
 fothing could be so fatal as such a w^ay 
 of settling the matter. He had, there- 
 fore, he contended, a Hght to see whe- 
 ther the witness could controvert any 
 part of Dumont's statement of herself. 
 He then desired the witness Whitcomb 
 to be recalled. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR said 
 that his noble and learned friend would 
 take care not to press his question, 
 imtil the sense of the House was taken, 
 whether it should he answered or not. 
 "With reference to the point of practice 
 the form was, between forty and fifty 
 years ago, for the judges, upon an ob- 
 jectionable question being put, to tell 
 the witness he was not bound to answer 
 it. But he understood an alteration 
 tad taken place in that practice ; and 
 the present practice was to allow the 
 answer to be taken if the witness chose 
 to give it; but not to suffer that an- 
 swer, whatever it be, to be afterwards 
 controverted ov contradicted by evi- 
 dence. The noble and learned lord 
 quoted Phillips's Law of Evidence, 
 and the case of the King and Watson, 
 to show what was the recent practice 
 of the courts. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE still maintained the 
 propriety of the course he proposed. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, 
 that even if the witness proved he had 
 been in the room with Madame Du- 
 mont, she might still reconcile that cir- 
 cumstance with what she had previ- 
 ously said, which was that she never 
 slept with any body in her chamber. 
 How far was it possible for their lord- 
 ships to go with that point unless they 
 could sift it to the bottom, which from 
 the practice of the courts, it was im- 
 possible they could de. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE said he did not 
 mean to carry it further than to shew 
 a contradictioa in the woman's evi- 
 dence. 
 
 Lord REDESDALE thought that 
 the question could not be put. 
 
 The Earl of LAUDERDALE said, 
 ;tiiat the propriety of adjusting the 
 
 manner in which a question ought to 
 b'» put, should be vested in the judge. 
 
 The LORD -CHANCELLOR: — 
 The construction put on the question 
 to Dumont fully shows its meaning. 
 1 think it was to get from her an ad- 
 mission that she was guilty of some 
 immorality. This she denies, and I 
 am of opinion that no witness can be 
 called to contradict it. 
 
 The Marquis of BUCKINGHAM 
 said a few words which were inauw 
 dible. 
 
 The. LORD-CHANCELLOR :— I 
 am quite sure no noble lord will press 
 any question until he knows whether 
 it be the sense of the house that it 
 •hould be put. Let it be understood 
 by the witness that he is not to answer 
 any question till the house wish it. 
 Mr. BROUGHAM : Yea. 
 Lord ERSKINE. Why, my lords, 
 a second question may almost neces- 
 sarily arise out of an answer which 
 no one can foresee. I .shall ask him 
 then — Where did you sleep at Naples ? 
 I -r-In the next room to Mr. Keppel 
 Craven, every night while I was there, 
 and during the whole of the night, 
 and never went out into any other 
 bed. 
 
 The LORD- CHANCELLOR. I 
 suppose counsel have finished. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM. Yes, mv lord. 
 Lord ERSKINE. I wish 'to put 
 one other question: — While at your 
 lodgings did you ever sleep out, aftid 
 on sleeping out, slept in that you had 
 left? — I never after slept in the 
 Queen's house. 
 
 By Lord LAUDERDALE.— I was 
 six years in the service of Mr. Keppel 
 Craven ; I entered it at Wurtemburgh 
 house, near Hammersmith ; I do not 
 recollect in what month or year, but I 
 am sure it is six yearsago, or more. 
 I could then speak a little French, so 
 as to understand and be understood ; 
 but I could speak no Italian. I was 
 at Pesaro with Mr. Craven, and was 
 in the room when Bergarai w^as there ; 
 on my coming up stairs I first met 
 Bergami, and he then pressed ray hand 
 and passed on. 
 
 By a Peer. — After I left the house 
 I was frequently in Dumont's bed- 
 room. 
 
 By Lord LAUDERDALE.— I saw 
 other persons in Dumont's bed-room ; 
 Annette and another. 
 
 The LORD - CHANCELLOR : — 
 Witness niav withdraw. 
 
WW. CAHniNCTON. 
 
 261 
 
 The Judj^Gs lierc returned and de- 
 livered their jiidjimont from a written 
 papt-r in the negative— addinsr, how- 
 ever, that in cases of a grave and 
 serious nature, the court would itself 
 supply the deticiency caused by the 
 neirli^enee of counsel in not putting 
 »\u'\\ questions at the proper season, 
 in order thereby that the ends of pub- 
 lic jiistice should not be defeated. 
 The Lord Chief Justice of the Court 
 of King's Bench read the Jiuli^es' an- 
 swer, and at some leugth entered on 
 the reasons for their decision. 
 
 THEODORE MAJOCHI. 
 
 After a short conversation and a 
 pubRecjuent pause of a few minutes, 
 Theodore Majochi was introduced to 
 the bar, his appearance rather squalid, 
 and his outside habit a dirty brown 
 coat. He was examined by Mr. 
 Brougham. 
 
 Ask him, if he saw at Rupinelli, 
 Wm. Carriugton, the servant of Sir 
 Wm. Gell? 
 
 " Non mi ricordo" — I don't remem- 
 ber that. Non mi ricordo having seen 
 Sir Wm. Geil's English servant any 
 where near Rome, (a general laugh, 
 and cjies of order below the bar). I 
 think I have seen his servant at Rome, 
 but not at Rupinelli. I have never 
 said to him that Ompteda had em- 
 ployed some one to get tlie keys of 
 the Princess at Como, in order to have 
 false ones made from them, nor did 
 I ever tell him any thing to the like 
 effect. I never told him that a person 
 employed for the aforesaid purpose 
 by Ompteda had confessed to the 
 police such employment, and been 
 discharged in consequence. I never 
 told Carrington that, on the Princess 
 having ordered her servants to take 
 no notice of the conduct of Ompteda, 
 that I myself said I would think 
 nothing of killiiig him like a dog. I 
 never said any thing of the villainy 
 and ingratitude of Ompteda after 
 having so long eaten and drank at the 
 Princess's house ; or complained that 
 he had brought suspicion on the ser- 
 vants. This I never said. I never 
 talked to Sir William Geli's English 
 eervant of any of these things. 
 
 A desultory conversation here took 
 place as to whether the counsel lor 
 her Majesty might not be allowed to 
 pnt a more general question to the 
 tvitness — as it was alleged, he miglit 
 swear ha never had these couvorsa- 
 
 tions with witness, althongh he may 
 have held them with other persons. 
 
 Lord LiVKKPOOL said a 'Special 
 leave was given for a special purpose, 
 and the use of it should be watched 
 with jealousv. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE thought the ge- 
 neral question should be put in order 
 that the witness might not be able to 
 shelter himself in the manner stated 
 bv the counsel at the bar. 
 
 Lord LAUDERDALE, in referring 
 to the answers formerly given by 
 witness relative to the German IJaron, 
 wished him to be asked, if he had 
 held this couversution with any one, 
 and if with any one, whether it was 
 relative to the conduct of the Baron? 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM:— Ask him, if 
 he ever held any conversation of the 
 kind alluded to this day, and on which 
 he has been examined, respecting the 
 Baron w ith an extravagant name, and 
 the false keys ? — I never spoke of this 
 baron. 
 
 The witness Majochi was pow or- 
 dered to withdraw. 
 
 WILLIAM CARRINGTQN. 
 
 William Carrington was again calleil 
 in, and his examination resumed. 
 
 I know Majochr; I jspoke to him 
 about Ompteda. He told me Ompteda 
 had come on a visit to the Princess ; 
 and tlwit he employed the postillion 
 and the chamber-maid to secure the 
 keys of her Royal Highness's room. 
 Majochi told me that Ompteda had 
 employed persons to steal the keys of 
 her Royal Highness's room ; au<l that 
 a person who had been so employed 
 was discharged in consequence. Ma- 
 jochi told me if her Royal Highness 
 allowed him, he would kill Ompteda 
 like a dog for what he iiad done. He 
 also complained to me of tlie villainy 
 and ingratitude of Ou'.pteda, after 
 having so long ertt< n and drank at the 
 house of the Princess. He told me 
 that Ompteda caused suspicions to be 
 entertained of the servants. He often 
 mentioned the name of Ompteda. I 
 remember Sir William Gcll being ill, 
 while he was with the Queen; at* 
 Strasburgh, at BruPiswick, and at 
 Naples. Her Royal Highness came 
 to visit Sir Wm. Gcll when he was iii", 
 bed. At Strasburgh he was on ^ 
 sofa; at Brunswick, also, on a so far 
 At Naples he was in a bed on the 
 tioor. 
 
262 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 CROSS-EXAMINATION. 
 
 Cross-pxamined by the ATTOR- 
 NEY-GENERAL. — Tlie^ conversa- 
 tion with Majochi took place in the 
 court-yard at Rnpinelli, when he was 
 preparing the carriage of the Princess 
 for her journey to Rome. Sir William 
 Cell went in a carriage to Rome, pro- 
 bably in about an hour after her 
 Royal Highness went. I travelled 
 with my master, and remained with 
 him while he was at Rome. I believe 
 this occurred in July, 1S17. We were 
 a part of two days and a night on the 
 journey. Majochi went with the 
 family. I do not know if exactly vvith 
 the Princess. The stable-keeper was 
 present when he was speaking to me 
 about Ompteda ; but I do not know 
 if he heard what vv as said. The con- 
 duct of Ompteda was the general 
 su()ject of conversation ; but I cannot 
 say whether, on that occasion, he 
 commenced with me or not. Majochi 
 talked a good deal of Ompteda's hav- 
 ing employed some one to get the 
 keys of the Princess's rooms, but I 
 cannot say if these were or were 
 not the first words he said to me. We 
 talked generally about Ompteda, his 
 villainy and ingratitude, and Majochi 
 regretted he was not allowed to kill 
 him, which he said he would think no 
 more than of killing a dog. I said to 
 him that I had heard something of it, 
 and he began to tell the whole story. 
 He talked of this before, in the ser- 
 vants' hall, in the presence of ten other 
 servants, none of the names of which 
 do I recollect except a man called 
 Francisco. They were all strangers 
 to me. He said to me, *' Have you 
 heard "of the affairs of Ompteda," and 
 told me the whole story. I am not 
 certain whether this took place in 
 1817 or 1818; but I think itwas 1817. 
 This was ^lie second time I was at the 
 Princess's house, at the Villa Grande. 
 Sir William Gell lodged at the hotel 
 del Euro{)e at Ruffineili, four miles 
 from Rome. 
 
 Examined by the Marquis of Buck- 
 ingham, Lord Lauderdale, Lord Darn- 
 ley, Lord Roseberry, Lord Harrowby, 
 Marquis Lansdowne,Lord Inniskillen, 
 Buke of Clarence, Lord EUenborough, 
 Lord Galvvay, and several other noble 
 lords. To all the minute and detailed 
 particulars inquired of t*ie witness, 
 he gave prompt and succinct answers. 
 He described himself ^ a native of 
 
 Essex, from the neighbourhood of 
 Colchester — that he had been brqtjght 
 up in the merchants' service, and af- 
 terwards got his living on shore for 
 some time — that he went on board 
 his Majesty's! ship Poictiers, with Sir 
 John lieresford, and entered as a mid- 
 shipman, in which capacity he served 
 for a year, and then was discharged 
 through the intercession of Sir John, 
 not liking the sea. He descrihed 
 with minuteness the local situation of 
 Rnffinelli. He stated that he under- 
 stood something of the Italian lan- 
 guage before he went to Italy : tliat 
 the conversation he had with Majociii 
 was in Italian, and ^hat he understood 
 him perfectly. Being desired to give 
 the very words of Majochi in Italian, 
 he repeated them as follows: — " Lui 
 hanno dotto nunc voudjez die lui las- 
 ciarnie fane il mio dorere che lui vor- 
 rebbe bastonare a mozzare como un 
 cane in mezzeo a la Strada." The 
 accuracy and readiness with which he 
 repeated the words produced a great 
 effect upon the house, and excited 
 expressions of admiration. The 
 Marquis di Spinetto, the Italian in- 
 terpreter for the crown, was desired 
 to repeat the testimony of the witness 
 on this point in Italian, and then give 
 the English. He did so, and it was 
 nearly the same as the statement of 
 the witness. Witness said, he had 
 read the miuHtes of Majochi's evi- 
 dence, and perceiving that much of 
 it within his own knowledge was false, 
 he called upon Mr. Vizard, the 
 Queen's solicitor, and communicated 
 to him the purport of his evidence of 
 this day. He had before mentioned 
 what Majochi had said to Hierony- 
 mous, Mr. Milburne, Mr. Crackler, 
 and several other persons, at the 
 Queen's house, at Hammersmith. 
 
 ELEVENTH WITNESS. 
 
 [John Jacob Sicarp.] 
 JOHN JACOB SICARD sworn 
 and examined by Mr. BROUGHAM. 
 — I first entered the service of the 
 Queen, next February will be twenty- 
 one years. I am a foreigner^ but a 
 naturalized Englishman now. Previ- 
 ous to going into the Princess's ser- 
 vice, I was in the service of the Mar- 
 quis of Stafford. I entered her Ma- 
 jesty's service as cook, by his present 
 Majesty's orders. In the October 
 after I first wept, I was appointed to 
 
JOHN JACOB SICARD. 
 
 2G3 
 
 th« situation *of inaitre dhotel. I al- 
 ways ferved her in that capacity, till 
 her I\Iajesty went abroad in 1814. I 
 accompanied her Majesty to Bruns- 
 wick, tVoni thence to Italy. 1 recol- 
 lect her M.n jesly having occasion for a 
 courier at Mihin. Sir \V. Gell gave 
 me orders to eiifi;age Bergami, who was 
 recommended by the chamberlain ot 
 the Emperor of Austria. Her Royal 
 Highness dismissed a courier soon 
 after she left Milan. I recollect the 
 fourth night of our arrival at Naples. 
 The house was not sufficient, with con- 
 venience, for the accommodation of 
 the whole of the establishment. Ber- 
 gami slept that night in a small room 
 over that of Lady E. Forbes. He slept 
 there a night or -two only. I ap- 
 pointed him to another room. It was 
 a small cabinet. I did not make that 
 arrangement by the direction of hor 
 ^ Koyal Highness I did not consult her 
 Royal Highness. The reason I put 
 him there was, that there was a door 
 which went into the garden, and I 
 thought it was proper to place a male 
 servant near to that door. During the 
 tweutj^ne years I was in her Ma- 
 jesty service, I have had many occa- 
 sions to observe her conduct towards 
 her servants of every class. It has 
 been uncommonly kind, almost to a 
 fault. I have walked with her Royal 
 Highness frequently in the grounds at 
 Blackheath. She has rested upon my 
 arm in goiag up steps, or on uneven 
 ground, and has pressed my arm when 
 asking my opinion on different sub- 
 ject^ (the witness by gesture, showed 
 what he meant) in a very condescend- 
 ing manner. I have walked with her 
 Majesty in this way for half an hour or 
 more. I had the management of the 
 masqued ball at Naples ; I was dressed 
 as a Turk in the early part of the 
 evening. 
 
 CROSS-EXA.MI NATION. 
 
 In crosn-e^amination, witness said, 
 that her Majesty left him at Naples, 
 and he wtnl with the baggage to Ge- 
 noa. He afterwards came to England. 
 He saw her Majesty again at Leghorn, 
 where he conveyed to her the intelli- 
 gence respecting his Tate Majesty's 
 death. He quitted her service about 
 three months ago. He now enjoyed 
 his salary of four hundred pounds per 
 annum. 
 
 The witness then underwent a fur- 
 
 ther long cross examination — in the 
 course of which he detailed the »itua- 
 tion of the apartments occupied by the 
 Queen and Bergami at Naples. In 
 this statement nothing new was elici- 
 ted. With respect to the conduct of 
 Bergami as courier, he said it was per- 
 fectly proper. He was not so chatty 
 as the generality of Italian couriers, 
 and always performed his t. nty as he 
 was desired. When arrived at Naples, 
 he acted as a page — he never knew 
 him to breakfast in the same apart*- 
 ment with the Princess, nor did lie be- 
 lieve that he did. He waited in the 
 Princess's apartment, and carried irt 
 breakfast, &c. as the other pages did. 
 When he spoke of her Royal Highness 
 having taken his arm, it was only when 
 going up steps, or when there was ine- 
 quality in the ground — God forbid he 
 should mean any thing else. He con- 
 veyed the intelligence of t4ie death of 
 the late King to her Majesty by desire 
 of her legal advisers. — W^hen he first 
 was appointed maitre d'hotel he had 
 only £200 a year; an additional hun- 
 dred M'as added for acting as her Ma- 
 jesty's "homme d'affaire" during her 
 absence from EngliJnd. He carried a 
 letter to Carlsruhe from the Queen to 
 the chamberlain of the Grand Duke, 
 "When her Majesty was travelling, Wil- 
 liam Austin slept in her Majesty^s 
 room. At Naples William Austin had 
 a room to himself, by her Majesty's de- 
 sire. He hired Bergami without any 
 communication with her Majesty . He 
 was in the habit of hiring all tlie ser- 
 vants for the family. 
 
 In answer to a question put at the 
 desire of Mr. BROUGHAM, witness 
 said her Majesty had always shown a 
 great partiality for young children. 
 
 Adjourned at half-past four. 
 
 MONDAY, October 9th. 
 
 TA\ ELFTH WITNESS. 
 
 [Dr. Henry Holland.] 
 
 Dr. HENRY HOLLAND sworn.— 
 Examined by Mr. WILDE— I left 
 England as physrcian to the Queen in 
 1814. I remained with her during the 
 whole time she wa^ at Naples. During 
 that period she was visited, with very 
 few exceptions, by all (he principal 
 nobiHty, both English and Neapolitan. 
 From NaplesI went to Rome,and thence 
 to Genoa,on board thcCIorinde with the 
 Queen. AH the English at Genoa visited 
 
gG4 
 
 DEFENCE OF TWfe QUEEN', 
 
 her. During tke period I was vrilh hor 
 she never in any manner avoided tlie 
 English. The house which she occupied 
 atGenoa was situated halt'amile distunC 
 from the town, in a part of the suburbs 
 thickly inhabited. 1 never saw l^er- 
 gami dioe at the Queen's table. Dur- 
 ing tite time 1 have nienlSoned the 
 Queen always conducted herself to- 
 wards Berganii as a mistress to a ser- 
 vant. Bergami's conduct towards her 
 was always unpresnming and respect- 
 ful. I never saw it otherwise. It was 
 understood that I was not to remain 
 with her Koyal Higlmess longer than 
 a year and a half, or two years. I 
 quitted her household at Venice. It 
 vvas understood I was to return as 
 soon as 1 had talven a short tour to 
 iSwitzerland. Tlie nobility wi)o visited 
 the Queen at Genoa were Lord iind 
 Lady WiiUain Bentinck, Lord and 
 Lady Glenbervie, Lord iVlalpas, and 
 all the supeiior officers aR-ached to 
 the army. i 
 
 CROSS-EXAMINATION. 
 
 Cross-examined by the SOLICI- 
 TOR-GENERAL.— I never stated to 
 any body that I had observed impro- 
 priety of conduct on the part of the 
 Princess towards Berganii. I never 
 did so to a minister at Yoiic. I never 
 informed any body whatever that I 
 did not think the conduct of the Prin- 
 cess correct, or any thing to that effect. 
 I never made any observations to any 
 l)ody (without referring to Bergami) 
 derogatory to the conduct of the Prin- 
 cess. I am so satisfied of the negative, 
 that I think I can venture to swear to 
 it. I am satisfied I never said to any 
 body, that no person who had any re- 
 gard for his character would continue 
 in the Princess's service. I was very 
 little about the Princess's person. I 
 have practised as a physician in Lon- 
 don during the last five years. Dur- 
 ing that period I have never been ex- 
 amined as to the conduct of her Royal 
 Highness, nor have I been asked to 
 be examined. 
 
 Examined by Lord ERSKINE.— 
 Referring to the whole term and to all 
 the places I was in attendance upon 
 her Royal Highness, I never observed 
 any thing improper in the conduct of 
 her Roval Hijrhness. 
 
 By Earl GREY.~I did not at any 
 time observe any thing in the conduct 
 •f her Royal Highness calculuted to 
 
 bring disgrace on this country. I can 
 say tJiis decidedly. No application 
 was made to me whatsoever previous 
 to this bill being brought before Par-. 
 lianient, to give any information re- 
 specting her Majesty's conduct while 
 I was in her service. 
 
 By Lord HARROWBY. — The 
 Countess of Oldi spoke very much the 
 Italian spoken in Lombardy. I find 
 it difficult to recollect whether the 
 Countess of Oldi spoke pure Italian 
 or not. I ha<i but few opportunities 
 of speaking with her. 
 
 By Lord ROSEBERRY.— Did the 
 lanj^uage spoken by the Countess of 
 Oldi differ more trom pure Italian 
 than the English language spoken by 
 Scotchu»en of rank and education 
 differs from fine English? — I cannot 
 from recollection answer this question. 
 
 By the LORD-CHANCELLOR.— 
 Bcrganu never dined with her Royal 
 Higlmess in my presence. 
 
 By Lord CALTHORPE.— I con- 
 sider, while I was in the suite of her 
 Royal Highness, Bergami to have oc- 
 cupied the situation of a menial ser- 
 vant. During the time I was with 
 the Princess, the manners of her Royal 
 Highness towards all her servants was 
 very familiar. I never saw any dif- 
 ference in her conduct towards Ber- 
 gami from that which she manifested 
 towards her other principal servants. 
 
 THIRTEENTH WITNESS. 
 
 (Charlks Mills.) 
 
 CHARLES MILLS, Esq. examined 
 by Mr. DENMAN, answered as fol- 
 lows: — 1 generally reside in Ronie. I 
 was there in 1817^ and had several op- 
 portunities of seeing the Princess of 
 Wales, with whom I had the honour of 
 being acquainted. She was then, by- 
 order of the Roman Government, at- 
 tended by Italian personages of dis- 
 tinction, to officiate in her household. 
 I saw the Baron and Baroness An- 
 cajani. Her Royal Highness the Prin- 
 cess had also a guard of honour al- 
 lotted to her, and a box at the public 
 ceremonies, like the other royal per- 
 sonages then residing at Rome. I 
 also saw Lord Kilworth, the Abbe 
 Taylor, and other personages visit her 
 Royal Highness. Bergami was then 
 her chamberlain, and as such he sat at 
 the Princess's table, but I never in 
 any place saw the slightest impro- 
 priety of couduct between them, either 
 
JOSEPH THEOLINL 
 
 265 
 
 at Rome or any nhere else. I paid 
 my respects, at Pesaro, to the Prin- 
 cess, in 1819, and called at the villa 
 near Pesaro, where I was invited to 
 sup by the Princess. She sent her 
 carriage, an eqnerry, and William 
 Austin, for me. She desired them to 
 shew me every thing interesting in the 
 ueighbourhood. I left the villa in the 
 evening to go and see the fair of Sini- 
 gaglia, as it was the last day of it. 1 
 also saw the Princess when she became 
 Queen, in February, at Rome, 1820; 
 she had then no guard of honour, no 
 ladies of honour, appointed as before 
 to attend her by the Roman govern- 
 ment. I know, however, that English 
 persons of rank then visited her, for I 
 saw their names in the book. Ber- 
 gami was chamberlain in 1 820 as well 
 as 1819 ; there seemed to be no dif- 
 ference in her Majesty's household. 1 
 never saw any conduct of her Majesty, 
 which appeared to me derogatory to 
 the honour and dignity of the British 
 empire, or to the morals of the people 
 of this country. I never saw any im- 
 proper or degrading familiarity be- 
 tween the Queen and Bergami, 
 
 CROSS-EXAMINATION. 
 
 Cross-examined by the ATTOR- 
 NEY-GENERAL.— Bergami dined at 
 her Majesty's table every day I dined 
 there; he did not sit in any particular 
 place. 1 have seen him in attendance 
 upon the Queen at the Corpus Dumini', 
 but he stood behind her when I saw 
 him at that ceremony. I cannot re- 
 collect the English persons of distinc- 
 tion who visited her Majesty at Rome 
 besides the names I have mentioned. 
 I saw several of the Roman nobility 
 and the Cardinal Gonsalvi on the stairs, 
 going up one day as I came down. 
 The Princess's parties were in the 
 evening, and I seldom stopped after 
 dinner to see what company came in. 
 Bergami dined and supped at the Prin- 
 cess's table when I was there. I don't 
 know Lewis Bergami. I don't gay 
 whether he did or not. 
 
 In answer to questions from the 
 Lord-Chancellor, the Earl of Liver- 
 pool, Lord Mansfield, Earl Grey, and 
 Lord EIIenborough,he said, the Queen 
 has told me she applied for passports 
 at Rome as Queen of England, and 
 that they were only granted as Caro- 
 line, Princess of Brunswick. I was 
 34 
 
 introduced to the Comntcss of Oldi. 
 Her nMiuners appeared to me nuob- 
 trusive and natural. She spoke good 
 Italian, with the accent of Lombardy, 
 but I am not sufficiently versed in the 
 Italian language to say, whether her 
 Lombard dialect was purely correct 
 or not, speaking of the Italian gram- 
 matically. I canoe to England, not to 
 give evidence on this trial, but on my 
 own private business. I arrived here 
 previous to the charge being brought, 
 and quite unconneeted with any tkiug 
 belonging to it. 
 
 y ^it 1 .wy> 
 
 FOURTEENTH wWJIE^S, 
 (Joseph Theolini.) . 
 
 JOSEPH THEOLINI cxaimned 
 by Mr. WILLIAMS.— I formerly held 
 the rank of Colonel on the Staff of the 
 Viceroy of Italy. 1 am a Chevalier of 
 the order of the Iron Crow n of Italy, 
 and a member of the French Legion ef 
 Honour. I have a brother who held 
 the rank of a General of Division in 
 the French service. I knew Bergami 
 when he served in General Pino's 
 brigade. He was Quarter-Master in 
 the 1st Regiment of Italian hussars at 
 the conclusion of 1800, or beginning 
 of 180 1 . He was in the brigade which 
 my brother commanded ; it was a bri- 
 gade of cavalry composed of two regi- 
 ments. I was aide-de-camp to my 
 brother. The conduct of Bergami at 
 that time was that of a non-commission- 
 ed officer, who had nothing to re- 
 proach himself with ; and, in fact, it 
 was that of a good military man. ,'I 
 have observed his holding intercourse 
 with General Gallemberti. They came 
 from the same part of Italy. The se- 
 cond time I met Bergami was on the 
 frontiers of Spain in 1808 or 1809, when 
 Marshal St. Cyr commanded a division 
 of the French army, at that time enter- 
 ing the Spanish dominions. He was 
 engaged in the household «f General 
 Pino, and also attached to a division 
 of the Italian array. As far as I had 
 an opportunity of observing, he was 
 treated by General Pino with much 
 kindness and entire confidence. I 
 cannot affirm that he dined at General 
 Pino's table. General Pino appeared 
 to me to treat him, on all occasions, aa 
 a person possessing his fullest confi- 
 dence. By the officers Bergami was 
 very well liked, and coniidered as 
 an honest man. 
 
S6^ 
 
 1X£FENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 CROSS-EXAMINATION. 
 
 'Cross-examined by Mr. PARK. — I 
 never knew Bergami when h# vva^ in 
 prison at Lodi. With General Pino 
 he was in the situation of a courier 
 special (courier par4icu{ier), and was 
 entrusted with the management of the 
 General's private affairs. He dressed 
 in ordinary clothes, not as a courier. 
 I have been in England about six 
 weeks. I was never in England be- 
 fore. When I first arrived, I remained 
 in London twenty days. I returned 
 to Paris, not bring able to stay longer 
 without leave from my General of Di- 
 vision. I travelled through Beauvais 
 ou my return with the courier, who 
 always takes that route. I recollect a 
 servant of the name of Rossi : I saw 
 him at Paris. He was alone, t had 
 read an account of the tumult at Dover 
 in the public papers. I did not men- 
 tion any thing of it to Rossi. I was 
 applied to to come here by the Queen 
 of -England. * * vji ; 
 
 . FIFTEENTH WITNESS. 
 
 ^f':.' [Carta) FoRTi.] 
 
 CARLO FORTI sworn and ex- 
 amined by Mr. BROUGHAM, through 
 the medium of the Marchese Spinetto. 
 — I am a catholic. I was a courier in 
 tiie service of her Majesty. I entered 
 her service on her departure from 
 Milan in 18l7. Previous to that I was 
 in the service of the Viceroy of Italy, 
 as head cabinet courier. Her Royal 
 Highness was going to Rome. I have 
 brothers residing at Rome. I hava 
 other reJations there : the Duchess of 
 Parlogina, the great banker's wife, is 
 my aunt. The Princess, on the jour- 
 ney from Milan to Rome, travelled in 
 an English laudaulet. She had two 
 other carriages with her in that jour- 
 nej; ono^was called boscaletta, and 
 the other, carratelli. A boscaletta is 
 a covered carriage, with four seats 
 inside. The landanlet^ of which I 
 have spoken, was an English carriage. 
 It vrm a carriage of a perfectly dif- 
 ferent appearance to the boscaletta. 
 The landaulet had glasses, as is usual 
 with such carriages. It had wood 
 blinds. It had silk curtains also. 
 These curtains were drawn down by 
 strings, and were lifted up by springs. 
 .1 remember her Royal Highness leav- 
 ing Rome to go to Slnigaglia. She 
 travelled by night. Her Royal High- 
 
 ness rested at Trieo)i, where she ar- 
 rived at nine in the morninff. The 
 second day she rested at Rocchi, where 
 she arrived at eleven in the morning. 
 She arrived at Siniga^lia on the fol- 
 lowing day at eleven o'clock. I know 
 a person of the name of Sacchi or Sac- 
 chini who was in her Royal Highness's 
 service. He accompanied her Royal 
 Highness on the journey I am speak- 
 ing of. He travelled from Milan to 
 Ancona on horseback ; from Ancona 
 to Loretto; and from Loretto to Rome. 
 He sot off in the evening, a day before 
 her Royal Highness, in the caratella ; 
 and I mounted myself on horseback, 
 and accompanied the Queen into 
 Rome. I mouuted on horseback at 
 Loretto. 
 
 Now when her Royal Highness left 
 Rome for Sinigaglia, did Sacchi travel 
 with her; and how did he travel ?— He 
 travelled in the caraiella, as before; 
 and I on horseback, with the carriage. 
 Hovy long before her Royal High- 
 ness did Sacchi set cut on that journey 
 in the caratella?— Two hours before. 
 
 What was it his business to do on 
 the journey which rendered it neces- 
 sary that he should go two hours be- 
 fore her Royal Highness?— He had to 
 order horses, and to pay for the horses. 
 How did you travel yourself on that 
 same journey ? — Always on horseback. 
 Did you accompany the carriage on 
 horseback ? — Always. 
 
 When you came near any stage, did 
 you go before her Royal Highness's 
 carriage? — Yes, about a mile and a 
 half before the end of a stage. 
 
 Do you mean to say, that at tbia 
 half-mile, before the end of a stage, 
 yon always rode before her Royal 
 Highness's carriage.' — I do. 
 
 Did Sacchi order horses for her 
 Royal Highness in the way you have 
 described, going before her in the 
 caratella, during the whole of that 
 journey from Rome to Sinigaglia? — • 
 He did ; and he paid for them at the 
 same time. 
 
 Did any other person ride as courier 
 for her Royal Highness on that jour- 
 ney ? — No. 
 
 If there had been any one eke must 
 you have seen him r— Certainly, be- 
 cause I was always there. 
 
 Did any other courier, or person 
 on horseback, except yourself, accom- 
 pany her Royal Highness on that jour^ 
 ney? — No one except myself. 
 
CARLO FORTI, 
 
 2()7 
 
 Now, wlio travelled with l.er Royal 
 Highness in the hindaulet on that oc- 
 casion? Tiierc were in it, besides her 
 Koyul Highness, theConntcss ofOldi, 
 Ber^nii, and Victorine. 
 
 Oa whose lap did Victorine gene- 
 rally sit durhig tliis journey? Very 
 often she was on the knees of her 
 Koyal Highness. 
 
 Did you see her (Victorine) some- 
 times in the morning sitting on the 
 Countess of Oldi's knees? Sometimes 
 Itlid. 
 
 Where did the Countess of Oldi sit 
 in the carriage ? In the middle. 
 
 Do you mean in the middle, between 
 the liaioii and her Royal Highness? 
 Her Koyal Highness was on t)ie right, 
 the Bai on on the left, and the Counte&s 
 in the middle. 
 
 Do you recollect whether, during 
 any part of the journey from Milan to 
 Rome, or from Rome to Sinigaglia, 
 the Countess of Old was in one of 
 the other carriages? At Loretto the 
 Countess fell ill, and went to the se- 
 cond carriage. 
 
 Whose place did she take at that 
 time ? She took the place of Dumont. 
 
 Where did Dumont go when the 
 Countess of Oldi took her place ? She 
 took the place of the Countess of Oldi. 
 
 Do you mean she took Oldi's] place 
 in the middl« of thelandaulet?' I do. 
 
 Was it pa the journey from Loretto 
 to Rome, or from Rome to Sinigaglia, 
 that this accident happened ? It was 
 on the journey from Loretto to Rome. 
 
 After leaving Rome to goto Sini- 
 gaglia, did Dumont, or any other per- 
 son, except the Countess of Oldi and 
 the Baron, ever travel in the carriage 
 with her Royal Highness r There did 
 not. 
 
 On that journey was the Countess 
 of Oldi always in the carriage, and al- 
 ways in the middle, as far as you saw? 
 fehe was. 
 
 Did you always see' her in that situ- 
 ation, in the morning, when her Ma- 
 jesty arrived any where ? Morning as 
 well as evening,', I saw her, for I was 
 always there. 
 
 As courier to her Royal Highness, 
 was it the practice to speak to H.R. 
 H. or any other person in the carri- 
 age, at the time you were travelling ? 
 Wlitm they arrived at the end of a 
 stage, and that the carriage was stop- 
 ped, then I knocked against the door 
 of the oarriage, and asked whether 
 they wanted any thing. 
 
 While travelling in this way,iji what 
 situation were the windows of the 
 carriage at night ? Had they glasses 
 or blinds ? In the front there was the 
 glass, and, on the right and left sides, 
 at all times during the night they put 
 up the blinds. 
 
 Could any air, though in a small 
 quantity, enter through the Venetian 
 blinds ? There was the air that came 
 in by the means of the openings in the 
 blinds. 
 
 Do you remember, about the time 
 that the change took place of the 
 Countess of Oldi going into the other 
 carriage, that any accident took place ? 
 At Corino the horses ran away; this 
 happened when we were going to 
 Koine. 
 
 Do yon recollect on that otcasion 
 any accident happening to a work- 
 bag? No. 
 
 Did that accident happen at Gorinq 
 at the time that the Countess of Oldi 
 changed her place in the carriage ? — 
 Yes it did. 
 
 Did you ever see the Baron kiss 
 the Princess at any time on taking 
 leave of her, or at any other time ? 
 No : I never saw him kiss the Prin- 
 cess. (The witness accompanied his 
 answer with a serious shake of the 
 head). 
 
 Did you ever see the Baron take 
 leave of the Princess on any occasion? 
 Yes. 
 
 What did the Baron do on taking 
 leave of her Royal Highness ? He 
 kissed her hand, and nothing else. 
 
 Did you yourself on taking leave of . 
 her Royal Highness, kiss her Royal . 
 H%liuess's hand in the same manner ?' 
 I have. 
 
 Did the other members of her Royal 
 Highness's suite do the same thing ? 
 Yes, the chamberlain ; and it was done 
 by all those gentlemen who came to 
 visit her Royal Highness. 
 
 Were you in the practice of kissing 
 the hand of the persons of rank whom 
 you formerly served. I did so to the 
 Vice-Queen, as well as to the Empress ' 
 Josephine. 
 Cross-examined by the ATl'ORNEY 
 GENERA L ; I am still a courier in the 
 service of the Queen. I attended her 
 to this country. The last time I saw • 
 Bergami was at St. Omer's ; he travel- ' 
 led with her Majesty to that place. I ' 
 know the wife of Bergami ; she live* 
 at Milan. Bergami is called the Ba- 
 r-on Francini. I have never seen bit 
 
268 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 wife in company of her Majesty. Ber- 
 gami's wife lives in a neat house that 
 isuits a private individual. She lives 
 in the style of a private person ; she 
 has a man servant and a maid. I was 
 once at her house about a year ago ; I 
 carried a letter to her from her hus- 
 band. Bergami was then at Pesaro. 
 I knew Bergami's brother Lewis, aqd 
 his cousins, Bernardo Valotti and 
 Francisco Bergami Valotti. I, knew 
 his sisters — 'One is called Faustina Ber- 
 gami, and his sister the Countess Oljdi. 
 AH the relations I have mentioned 
 were once in the service of the Prin- 
 cess. The Countess of Oldi vv^as 
 dame d'Honneur, Faustina kept the 
 account of the linen, Lewis Bergami 
 was equerry to her Royal Highness, 
 Bernardo was Prefect of the Palace, 
 Francisco was accountant. I recol- 
 lect Bergami's mother. She came over 
 to pass a few days at the Villa Ciprini ; 
 she remained two months more or less. 
 Bergami's mother at other times lived 
 at Milan, in a house. When she was 
 at the Villa Caprini, slie dined some- 
 times with her Royal Highness. Some- 
 times in a room by herself. Faustina 
 always dined in her own room. Lewis 
 Bergami sometimes dined with her 
 Royal Highness. Sometimes he did 
 not. Ragionati always dined at our 
 table. I know Faustina's husband, 
 Martini. ? He lives at Milan. On the 
 journey f om Milan to Rome, the Prin- 
 cess was accompanied by the Coun- 
 tess Oldi, the Baron Bergami, Mr. 
 Hownam,the Chevalier Vassali, Lewis 
 Bergami, Mademoiselles Brunette and 
 De Mont, and the little Victorine. Mr. 
 William and the Chevalier travelled 
 in the " caratella." In the landau, 
 De Mont, Brunette, and Hieronymoiis 
 travelled. Lewis Bergami arrived at 
 Rome one day before us; he set out 
 first in a caratella. When we went 
 from Anconato Rome, there were her 
 Royal Highness's carriages and two 
 more. When we went from Rome to 
 Sinigaglia, there wei-c three carriages 
 beside her own. There was no other 
 courier beside Sacchini and myself* 
 Majechi was on that journey, as was 
 Regti. They travelled on the box of the 
 boscaletta. There were two servants 
 in her Royal Highness's service called 
 Solyman and Polidoro. They were on 
 the journey. Solyman was on the box 
 of the caratella. Polydoro remained 
 at Rome, and came a day after. — 
 On the journey to ?5ijiiga§lia, Sacchi 
 
 set out two hours first to order horscx. 
 I will swear two hundred thousand 
 times that I did not go first to order 
 horses. Sacchi went in a caratella, 
 because he was not fit to travel on 
 horseback ; for, after he had travelled 
 a stage or two on horseback, he always 
 laboured much, and was chafed. Be- 
 fore we set out for Sinigaglia, we had 
 been two months at Roras. Sacchi 
 had been thirteen months in her Royal 
 Higliucss's service. We lived at Rome 
 at tlie Hotel of Europe. I always 
 slept at her Royal Highness's hous'o. 
 I never was confined in prison while I 
 was with her Royal Highness. I was 
 once arrested for five days. It was 
 when I went to fetch the money from 
 the banker, Toilonia. I had *got to 
 Astorta, and wanted horses. The 
 postilions would not give me any, but 
 began to ill-treat, and revile me. I 
 retaliated, and fought with them. Then 
 the postilions came, seven of them, 
 against me, with pitchforks. I drew out 
 one of my pistols, and fired it. At 
 that time came ujp a courier whom I 
 knew a friend ot mine, and he held 
 my arm as I was pulling the trigger, 
 and thus received the fire himself; 
 When he heard that I was in prison he 
 procured my release, by stating how 
 the circumstance had occurred, and 
 that I was in tiie right. One of the 
 postillions was not killed ; I only made 
 a hole in him. The courier did not 
 die J he was forty days ill. Rufenilli 
 from Rome is twelve miles, and half a 
 mile from Frescatti to Rufenilli. X 
 mean Roman miles. 
 
 Re-examined by Mr. BROUGHAM: 
 — Astorta, the place at which the ac- 
 cident happened, was the first stage 
 from Rome. I was going to Pesaro, 
 and had charge of 15,000 dollars for 
 her Royal, Highness. ITie courier 
 whom I hurt was a friend of mine ; he 
 is still ray friend, and lives at Rome. 
 
 Examined by the Peers. By Lord 
 ERSKINE: — Did you ever observe, 
 during the whole time that you were 
 in her Royal Highness's service, any 
 thing immodest or indecent in her 
 behaviour towards Bergami or any 
 otlier person.^ — Never: Bergami al- 
 ways spoke with much esteem when 
 he spoke to her. (The interpreter 
 added, that the word which he had 
 translated, " esteem,'' meant '* re- 
 spect.") 
 
 By Lord ELLENBOROUGH:— 
 Were you travelling alone when this 
 
LIEUT. J. FLYNN. 
 
 260 
 
 iiccidcnt hapj^ened at Astorta ? — I was 
 travelling to meet Bergami. 
 
 Do you know why you were released 
 from prison sO soon? — The Secretary 
 of State, who governed at Rome, 
 knew who I was, and the gentleman 
 in whose service the courier was learnt 
 that it was a misfortune and accident, 
 and exerted himself to procure my 
 liberation. 
 
 SIXTEENTH WITNESS. 
 
 [Lieut. John Flynn.] 
 
 LIEUT. JOHN FLYNN sworn 
 and examined by Mr. DENMAN : — 
 
 I am a lieutenant in the Royal Navy 
 of England. I am now settled at Si- 
 cily. I saw the Princess of Wales at 
 Messina in the month of November, 
 1815. I had the command of a gun- 
 l)oat at that period. Her Royal High- 
 ness applied to me to proceed with her 
 on a voyage to Constantinople, and 
 other places. A polacca was hired for 
 that purpose. I took the command of 
 it during the whole voyage. I fitted 
 up the cabins according to the order 
 of her Royal Highness, at her expence. 
 We took a surgeon on board at Tunis , 
 he is now dead. When he came on 
 board, I removed M. Bergamifrom the 
 after cabin on the right-hand of the 
 ship, looking forward to the dining 
 room. I know the rooms occupied by 
 her Majesty and Bergami during the 
 whole of the voyage ; it was impossi- 
 ble for them to sec from one bed to the 
 other. Her Majesty has sometimes 
 called to me from he\ cabin, and when 
 sleeping under the tent upon deck, to 
 know the state of the weather. Gar- 
 giulo's situation on board was that of 
 Captain. All the orders of her Majesty 
 were given to me, and by me to Gar- 
 giulo. Gargiulo's duty did not call him 
 to attend about her Royal Highness's 
 person: it was his duty to attend to 
 the men. The steersman's situation 
 on deck was within three or four feet 
 of the tent to which I have alluded. 
 On our return from Jaffa I slept on 
 deck, about five feet from the helm. 
 From the place the steersman occu- 
 pied, speaking generally, I conceive 
 he could have heard any conversation 
 which passed in the tent. I have never 
 heard conversations passing under the 
 tent from where I slept. There was 
 a passage alongside the tent. I and 
 others of the crew were in the habit 
 of passing along that passage at night. 
 
 It was the duty of the mate to take the 
 light froin the scat, lest the intention 
 of pirates, who were known to exist 
 in the .Archipelago, should discover 
 the ship. There was a communication 
 from the tent to below. I remember 
 a tub in which her Royal Highness 
 bathed. It was too large to be placea 
 in the cabin in which her Royal High- 
 ness slept. On the return from Jaffa, 
 I don't know where Bergami slept* 
 On going out, he slept in the dining 
 room. There was a gun upon the 
 deck. I never saw her Royal High- 
 ness sitting on that gun, or with her 
 arms round the neck of any person. 
 
 During the whole voyage 1 never 
 saw the slightest indecency or impro- 
 priety on the part of Bergami towards 
 her Royal Highness. I saw Bergami 
 quitting the ship to go to Terracina ; 
 on departing he kissed her Majesty's 
 hand, which was common for all the 
 persons iu her establishment. 
 
 The witness then underwent a lon^ 
 and rigid cross-examination by the 
 Solicitor General, during which, from 
 a confusion of intellect, arising from 
 the novelty of his situation, he was led' 
 into some apparent inconsistencies. 
 At half-past four the house adjournctt 
 till to-m®rrow. 
 
 TUESDAY, October 16. 
 Rumours were industriously circulated 
 below the bar this morning, tliat Lord 
 Melville, by his enquiries at the Ad- 
 miralty, had been able to make disco- 
 veries highly discreditable to the ve- 
 racity of the witness Carrington, who 
 gave such decided testimony as to the 
 gross perjury of Majochi on Saturday- 
 last, on tlie subject of his knowledge 
 of the Baron Ompteda. At length. 
 
 Lord MELVILLE rose, and said, 
 that circumstances had come to his 
 knowledge respecting the evidence of 
 one of the witnesses examined yester- 
 day (Wm. Carrington), who had stated 
 himself to have been a midshipman in 
 the royal navy. It would be desirable, 
 he apprehended, to put some further 
 questions to that witness; but when 
 that was done, he thought that the 
 counsel on both sides should be present 
 at the bar, that they might have the 
 opportunity of hearing and comment- 
 ing on what might pass. In the mean 
 time, he wished that the counsel on 
 both sides should be made aware of 
 the intention of calling the witness to- 
 morraw. 
 
270 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUKfeN, 
 
 Sev6ra] Peers cne<J " To-<lay ! To- 
 day !" and the witness was ordered to 
 be in attendance. 
 
 LIEUT. JOHN FLYNN. 
 
 The cross-examination of this wit- 
 ness was resumed, and continued over 
 a period of four hours. He again ma- 
 nifested a great confusion of ideas, 
 evidently iuisius:? from the perplexing 
 questions which were put to him. His 
 agitation, at one period, proceeded so 
 far that he fainted, which occasioned 
 considerable sensation. His expla- 
 nations went to confirm his original 
 evidence, tliat Bergami, to his know- 
 ledge, did not sleep under the tent 
 with her Miijesty, upon the deck of 
 the polacca, as well as the fact of its 
 being impossible to get the bathing tub 
 into her Majesty's cabin. 
 
 W. CARRINGTON. 
 
 This witness, alluded to by Lord 
 Melville, was then called to the bar, 
 and the whole house seemed prepared 
 to view his examination with the most 
 intense attention. As his testimony in 
 chief was so momentous, and the esta- 
 blishment of his character, as opposed 
 tp Majochi, equally important, we 
 *iiall give his examination at length : 
 
 Examined by Lord MELVILLE.— 
 You stated, in your examination in 
 <;hief, that, before you were in the 
 service of Sir Wm. Gell, you served 
 in his Majesty's navy as a midshipman ? 
 Yes, with Sir John Beresford. 
 
 You also stated that you had not 
 been in his Majesty's service previous- 
 ly to serving iu the Poictiers; is that 
 irue? I understood the question as 
 jelating to my being at sea with Sir 
 John Beresford. I certainly had been 
 in other ships before. 
 
 You were alt«o asked in what situa- 
 tion you were before yoH went on 
 board the Poictiers, and you answered 
 that you were at sea when a boy in a 
 merchant vessel ; that you were after- 
 wards on land, and got your livelihood 
 iq the best way you could. Is that 
 correct I Yes, it is. 
 
 The next question asked was as fol- 
 lows: *' You were never in his Ma- 
 jesty s service previously to serving 
 yj the Poictiers? No.'^ vVhat did you 
 mean by that r — I understood the ques- 
 tion to relate to my being with Sir 
 John I^eresford : my answer alluded 
 to him. 
 
 Thea upon the two question? as to 
 
 whether ' yon were iu his Majesty'* 
 service previously to your being rated 
 on tlie Poictiers, and upon yotir an- 
 swering No, I am to understand that 
 that answer would not be correct as 
 the question is now asked ? 1 cer- 
 tainly have served with other captains. 
 
 In wiiat situation did you serve hii 
 Majesty previously to your being iq 
 the Poictiers? I was quarter-master 
 on board the Majestic before I was in 
 the Poictiers. 
 
 Had you been in any other ship 
 before you were in the Majestic ? Yes, 
 I had been in the Namur (we think) 
 along with the same captain who com- 
 manded the Majestic. 
 
 Were you on board of ariy other 
 ship? Yes, I was two months on 
 board of a brig, whose name I do not 
 recollect just at present. I do not know 
 whether I was on the books of that 
 ship or Bot : 1 received, Jiowever, pay. 
 
 Did you ever serve on board of any 
 other ships ? Never. 
 
 Were you a volunteer, or pressed ? 
 I was pressed. 
 
 Did you serve as a midshipman on 
 board any other ship than the Poic- 
 tiers ? Never. On board the Majes- 
 tic I served as quarter-master or gun- 
 ner's mate. 
 
 You have said that you were at sea 
 in a merchant vessel when a boy ; 
 that you were afterwards on land, and 
 got youriivclihood as you could. Now 
 how long were you on land ? I was 
 born and brought up on the sea-coast ; 
 sometimes I was on land ; sometimes 
 I was engaged iu fishing and in boats; 
 sometimes 1 was in merchant vessels 
 or coasters. 
 
 In what service were you when you 
 were impressed ? — I was, wlien I was 
 impressed, in a boat belonging to a 
 merchantman. 
 
 How long were you in the merchant 
 service.'' — I don't exactly recollect. 
 From the time I was a boy I had always 
 been employed in some way or other 
 about them. When I was not engaged 
 in them, I got my living on land as well 
 as I could. 
 
 I ask you how yon reconcile your 
 statenient of being upon land for some 
 time with your being impressed from 
 the merchant service? — When I waa 
 living upon land I engaged in fishing 
 and pilotage: at other times I was in 
 the merchant service. 
 
 When you were a«ked what was 
 your ioason for leaving the navy, yoi^ 
 
WM. CAURINGTOX. 
 
 271 
 
 rpi-lie.l, in one ra'-o, yon did not like 
 Tlif sea, and that Sir J. BeresPrd iiad 
 obiaincd yonr discharge; and yet, in 
 anothor, when yonjwerc asked the same 
 question yon said that yon did not 
 leave it for any other reason than your 
 own reqnest. How do yon reconcile 
 these two statements; — 1 had often 
 been promised a lieutenant's warrant, 
 ill consequence of my services, but 
 Jiad never got it; besides, I did not 
 wish to become an officer on the quar- 
 ter deck, as I had not friends or money 
 to support the rank of an officer, I 
 therefore wished, as the sea was dis- 
 agreeyble, to have my discliarge. 
 
 Was it at your own request, then, that 
 you were discharged ? — It was. 
 
 It was not at the request of Sir W. 
 Gell, was it? — I beg leave to explain 
 the manner in which I became ac 
 
 ^uainted with W. Gell. I saw Sir W. 
 rell when he was a passenger on bo&rd 
 the Poictiers to Lisbon, and also when 
 he was upon bis passage back. I met 
 him one day upon the poop, when he 
 asked me several questions, to which I 
 ^f ave the best answers I could. Many 
 o^her things also he asked me to do for 
 him in his cabin, which Idld ; as at thiit 
 time he had no servant. When' we 
 came near land, he expressed his obli- 
 gations to me, and said, " I can't give 
 you money at present; but if there 4s 
 any thing* I can do for you with Sir 
 John Beresford, I shall be very happy 
 to do it." I told him I wanted my dis- 
 charge, and that- 1 should be very glad 
 if he could enable me to get it. He 
 then said that he would do his best to 
 obtain it for me. I then explained to 
 he«i the situation in which I stood. I 
 told him that I expected to have a 
 lieutenant's warrant, but that I was 
 notable to appear as a gentleman on 
 the quarter-deck. He desired me to 
 consider well before I determined, and 
 said that he would speak to me on the 
 iubject next day. On the following 
 morning he asked me if 1 was still of 
 the same mind ; and I said that I would 
 rather leave the navy. He accordingly 
 mentioned thesubjtct to Sir J. Beres- 
 ford, who 8aid that he would certainly 
 get my discharge, and that there wotild 
 be no difficulty in doing iW I heard 
 nothing farther of it till I came to 
 Portsmouth, and then Lieutenant Al- 
 »op, the commanding officer of the ship 
 at that time, came to me, and said that 
 he had heard that I was wishing to 
 5tart from the navv. He a«ked me 
 
 what was the mnajiing of it, and said 
 that I wa.5 mad to leave the service, 
 now that I had got what I wanted. I 
 replied that I had obtained the object 
 of my wishes ; but that 1 could not 
 support the expense of an officer's rank 
 on the quarter-deek, and that I would 
 rather be dischargedthan remain amid- 
 shipinan. He again said I was mad to 
 leave the navy. Sir W. Gell and Sir 
 John Beresford met me in London (as 
 we understood the witness), and 
 thought there was something mysteri- 
 ous in the affair ; they wished to pre- 
 vent me, if possible; and Sir John said 
 he would send a man down to me. 
 Captain Jones came, and gave me leave 
 of absence; and i was told to goto 
 London to Sir John Beresford, and re- 
 ceive my orders. I went accordingly, 
 and was asked by hirh if I was still of 
 the same mind as to Ifefving the navy. 
 I said yes. He then directed me to 
 go doAvn to the Thiisbe; and a letter 
 was sent to the commanding officer of 
 that ship; but whethet by the post or 
 by me I do not know. 1 went to the 
 Thisbe ; and when I came on board 
 they said there v^^ere no papers for me, 
 and that they knew nothing of my 
 nanie. I wrote to Sir John BeresfortU 
 stating this ; and he desiried me to Re- 
 main where I Was, and said that if they 
 troubled me I v^s to let him know,': 
 and he would give them an aiisweti 
 He gave me a certificate under his owp^ 
 hand. I remained two years with Sir* 
 W. Gell; and at the end of that time 
 I met with Sir John Beresford, and 
 told hira that I had not received my 
 pay. Sir John sard he would give me' 
 a letter to a gentleman, in Somerset- 
 house, from whom I would receive my 
 pay, which I did, on presenting the 
 letter. 
 
 Do you adhere to your former an 
 swers, after having given this ^xplana-* 
 tion? — Yes, certainly. 
 
 Did Sir Wm. Gell ask for your dis- 
 charge? — He said he would do any 
 thing for me that I wished to be done, 
 if it was in his power ; and I told him 
 that was the thing that I wanted. 
 
 Are you acquainted with Sir Wra. 
 Gell's hand-writmg? — I think I do 
 know his writing. 
 
 Have you ever seen his v?riting?-^ 
 Yen. 
 
 And you think you know it? — I thinkf^. 
 I do. 
 
 (A paper wa« then handed to the 
 witness by Lord Melville.) 
 
^72 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 Is this his writing ? — I believe it is 
 his haud-vvriting, but I am not certain. 
 
 Examined by Mr. BKOUGHAM. 
 Uid you ever, on the journey of her 
 ivi^tjesty to Naples, make any beds ? — 
 1 assisted in making them. 
 
 Did you ever make Wm. Austin's 
 bed ?— I assisted to make a bed for W. 
 Austin. 
 
 Was that bed made for Wra. Austin 
 in her Royal Highuess's bed-room, or 
 in another apartment?— Sometimes, 
 when there was room, it was made in 
 her Royal Highness's bed-room, and, 
 -when not, in other places. 
 
 Cxoss-examined by the ATTOR- 
 NEY-GENERAL. Did you make 
 Wm. Austin's bed put of her Royal 
 ilighness's room moretlian once? — 
 More than once or twice; but I can- 
 not recollect how often. 
 
 Dp you recollect any of the places 
 where y^u made Wm. Austin's bed in 
 a separate room from that of her Royal 
 Highness ? — At Domp d'Oscilla, ai far 
 a^: I can i^collect. 
 
 SEVENTEENTH WITNESS. 
 
 [Lieut. John Robert Hownam.] 
 1 am a lieutenant in his Majesty's 
 Royal Navy ; I have been a lieutenant 
 since the early part of the year 1809. 
 I am settled at present at Rouen, in 
 France. I joined the party of her 
 Royal Highness the Princess of Wales 
 m the month of April, 1815, at Genoa. 
 After I had joined her, she remained 
 at Genoa about six weeks. While at 
 Genoa, I recollect being alarmed. It 
 was supposed the house had been 
 troken open ; I got up, and went into 
 the great hall.The first person I saw was 
 Bergami, who came into my room; he 
 had a caudle and a sword in his hands. 
 My room opened into the hall. In the 
 hall, when I got there. I found the 
 Princess and many of the servants. 
 While at Genoa, I have »een the Prin- 
 ce«8 at breakfast. At the time I so 
 saw her, Bergami was not breakfast- 
 ing with her ; I never aaw him break- 
 fast with her. I was in the habit of 
 dining with her Royal Highness. Ber- 
 gami never dined with her Royal 
 Highness at Genoa. I do not recol- 
 lect the place where Bergami dined 
 with the Princess first ; it was on a 
 journey over St. Gothard. This was 
 iu 1815. Bergami did not continue to 
 dine regularly with the Princess at 
 that time, but some time after. When 
 
 he began to dine regularly with the 
 Princess, she was at the Villa D'Este. 
 Mer Royal Highness went to Milan. 
 I remember her Royal Highness resid- 
 ing at the Casa Boromeo. I remem- 
 ber a staircase in that house,at the toi> 
 of which her Royal Highness slept : it 
 was not a secret staircase, but led up 
 to other sleeping rooms. It was the 
 staircase I was in the habit of using 
 when I went to my room. After we 
 left Milan, we, went to Venice upon a 
 little tour. Her Royal Highness first 
 took up her residence at the Villa 
 D'Este, at thelatterend of September. 
 I remember where her R. H slept, but 
 I cannot say where Bergami slept. 
 There M^ere some stairs* near her Royal 
 Highness's sleeping room. Icannotsay 
 that tliere was a door at the top of 
 those stairs. I accompanied her Royal 
 Highness during the whole of tha 
 long voyage. At Tunis, Bergami slept 
 in a room at a distance from the room 
 of the Princess. Bergami's room was 
 the only room up a flight of stairs, and 
 it was not on the same story with the 
 Princess's room. I remember at Tunis 
 taking a short journey to Uttica. We 
 slept at Uttica in the polacca of the 
 young prince; it was called Sabella. 
 I was on board the polacca during 
 the voyage. The births prepared for 
 the captain and his crew were quite 
 separated from the part of the vessel 
 set apart for the Princess and her 
 suite by a bulk-he^d. The captain 
 had no business to perfom in that part 
 of the vessel which the Princess occu- 
 pied. I never saw the captain in that 
 part of the vessel. There were two 
 water closets : one from the cabin of 
 the Countess of Oldi and another 
 from the cabin of the Princess. I 
 recollect our landing at or near Ephe- 
 sus. We slept that night on the 
 plains of Ephesus, under a shed, which 
 was open. The Princess's suite slept 
 all round her; I slept amongst the 
 rest of the suite. We dined in the' 
 church-yard next the coffee-house^ 
 under a portico. We all dined toge- 
 ther. I most perf»;ctly recollect we 
 sat on tlie ground ; the Princess sat on 
 her travelling bed. We afterwards 
 embarked at Scala Nova, and sailed 
 te St. Jean D'Acre. Before that we 
 were at Constantinople for fourteen 
 days. The Princess lodged at the 
 house of the British minister, Mr. 
 Fr^re. From St. Jean D'Acre to Je- 
 rusalem her Majesty travelled on an 
 
LIEUT. J. R. HOWNAM. 
 
 273 
 
 ttss. 1 travelled on a horse. We tra- 
 velled by ni^ht and rested by day^ The 
 princess rested under a tent. Her royal 
 highness before she lay by for the day 
 appeared excessively fatijiiued. This 
 appeared the case on the whole jour- 
 uey. 1 have seen her fall from the ass 
 more than once with fati<iue. During 
 our voya«je to St. Jean D'Acre there 
 was a teut on decit to proleoL the prin- 
 cess from the sun and wind. Jn fact, 
 k was the awniag of the ship. We re- 
 embark' d at Jaffa. The \veather was 
 excessively hot. We had asse? and 
 liorses on board. They were kept ju 
 the hold, and made a ^reat uoise. 
 There was also an otfensive smell. On 
 the voyage home fron JatFa her majesty 
 slept on the dec.< under the tent The 
 tent was put up by direction of the 
 princess, ami remained permanently on 
 the deck to the ei'id of the voya<^e. 'J'iie 
 princess saidshe did not care about tlui 
 teut when 1 represented that itretarded 
 the sailing: "^ the vessel. Her royal 
 hij^hness slept on the deck in conse- 
 quence of the excessive heat. J re- 
 member t\:e lights in the tent being jiut 
 out earlier than usual in consequence 
 of npprehension of pirates. 1 recom- 
 mended it. There were four sofas on 
 board the polacca : two were locked 
 tog-eth' r in the princess's cabin, and 
 two in the countess of Oldi's cabin. 
 The countess afterwards sent one out of 
 her cabin. It was occasionally on deck 
 during the first part of the voyage, aud 
 always after we reached Jaffa. Jt was 
 beueatli the tent. Besides the sofa there 
 was an English travelling bed beneath 
 the tent. There was a ladder which 
 led from the tent down into the dining- 
 room. — Adjourned. 
 
 WEDNESDAY, October II. 
 Examination of lieutenant Hownam 
 continued by Mr. Tyndall. — The com- 
 munication between the tent and the 
 dining-room was always open ; the lad- 
 der ariways stood there. The tent of 
 which I am speaking was the awning 
 of the ship. It was single. The tent 
 might be opened from the outside. It 
 was closed as all tents are, by parts of 
 the canvas being drawn together. j The 
 tent came close aft to the mizen mast, 
 and was witliii four or five feet of the 
 steerspian. The watch, one half of the 
 vessel's crnw, were up by night. There 
 was a passage on one side ©f the tent. 
 The duty of the crew carried them from 
 one end of the ship to the other. 1 liave 
 
 35 
 
 ! stated there was a sofa and a travelling 
 bed under the tent. During the night 
 1 think her royal highness reposed on 
 the sofa. I do not know who reposed 
 on the travelling bed ; 1 have never 
 been under the tent at night. J do not 
 know, because I have not seen it, that 
 her majesty reposed alop t under the 
 tent. 1 have never seen her majesty 
 reposing during the day on the journey 
 from St. Jean D'Acrc, to Jaffa, and 
 cannot say whether she was dressed 
 or undressed ; .1 do not believe she was 
 ever undressed during that journey. I 
 have not seen any bed clothes on the 
 sofa under the tent. Whilst her royal 
 highness was under the tent on board 
 the ship, I never saw any bed clothes 
 on the sofa. I recollect an accident 
 haf>pening one night by a sea breaking 
 into the teiit ; a sea broke over part of 
 the vessel, an 1 her royal highness came 
 down below to sleep. The accident 
 was of that nature to call me up. 1 
 saw her royal highness the momeut of 
 her coujing down ; on that occasion she 
 was dressed. I saw persons handing 
 her down ; 1 think it was Bergami and 
 iMr. Flynn ; Bergami, at that time was 
 dressed, 1 recollect her royal highness 
 having takon baths on the voyage home; 
 the bath was a common bathing tub, 
 made at Augusta by my direction. I 
 do not think it possible this bath could 
 have been put into her royal highness's 
 cabin, when her royal highness's bed 
 was there. J never saw her royal high- 
 ness sitting on a gun on board with 
 Bergami ; I never saw her sitting on a 
 bench with her arms round him, or his 
 arms round her. 1 never saw them 
 kissing each other. I never saw any 
 impropriety or indeoency from one to- 
 wards the other on board. In point of 
 fact, I was generally on deck during 
 the day. I recollect Bergami dressing 
 
 ■ himself up in a particular way with 
 pillows on board. It was in derision of 
 the English consul at Jaffa, who came 
 on ijoard with a gold laced hat aud a 
 gold laced cane ; he was a pompous 
 character. I recollect a man of the 
 name of Mahomet ; I remember a 
 dance performed by him. This origi- 
 nated in a quarrel between Mahomet 
 and the doctor : he was sick on board, 
 and the Doctor wanted to give him 
 physic; he afterwards ridiculed the 
 Doctor by this dance. I had no notion 
 of any thing indecent in this dance, 
 more than the Spanish bolero. I have 
 seeu him perform the same dance pre- 
 
S74 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 cisely on shore. At Farracina, Ber- 
 {jaini, Majocchi, and anuthcr went on 
 shore. If we had ^oue into port, we 
 should, in all probability, have been 
 obliged to perfonu quarantine. The 
 reason these persons were landed, was 
 to obtain perniission to go on shore, in 
 I'onsequenee of her royal highness 
 having been so long on board. Her 
 royal highness was Vfery much fatigued. 
 At the time these persons put off 
 . fpOm the ship, her royal highness and 
 everybody was on deck. These per- 
 sons took leave of her royal highness 
 by kissing the hand of her royal high- 
 ness, in a respectful manner. Bergami 
 certainly didi not kiss her royal high- 
 ness's face on that occasion. After the 
 long voyage, as it is c lied, her royal 
 highness went back to the Villa D'Este. 
 After staying a short time at the Villa 
 D'Este, she went to the Barona, a 
 small country house fitted up for the 
 purpose ; it was not a house in which 
 any large fete could be given. There 
 was no entertainment given at the Ba- 
 rona, save one given by the household 
 to flie farmers' daughters ; I have seen 
 wives as well as unmarried daughters 
 there, ''hey were persons who resided 
 in the neighbourhood. The clergyman 
 of the place was frequently there, vi- 
 siting hnr royal highness; but whether 
 at the dance I cannot say. During the 
 dances, her royal highness was not 
 constantly in the dining room, but 
 chiefly remained in an adjoining room, 
 and came in occasionally. I always 
 partook of the dances. Her roxal 
 highness chiefly retired before the 
 dances finished. During the dances, ; 
 I did not perceive any thing indecent 
 or indecorous in the parties there. 1 
 remember the river near the Villa j 
 D'Este. It was a sort of torrent ra- [ 
 ther than a river. It was sometimes j 
 with little water in it ; when it ran it 
 ran with great rap dity. 1 should think 
 it was not a place in w ich- p' ople i 
 could chuse to bathe. 1 recollect ac- 
 companying her royal highness upon a 
 tour into Germany, about Marci, 1817. 
 I recollect being at Carlsrhue. A cham- 
 berlain was appointed to attend i;er on 
 that occasion, i he grand chamberlain 
 received her when she got out of her 
 carriage. Her royal highness passed 
 the greater part of her time at court, 
 or in visiting the family of the grand 
 duke. She usually dined at the court, 
 or at the margravine's, the grand duke's 
 mother. She mostly supped out at 
 
 tiie grand duke's, and 1 think once at 
 the margravine's. '1 here were always 
 parties assembled to meet her loyal 
 highness, except the first day, at din- 
 ner at the margravine's. I remember 
 l)eing stopped on the barrier town be- 
 tween Austria and the Tyrol, on our 
 way from Carlsrhue. We were on 
 sledges, in consequence of the snow. 
 The carriages were behind, and the 
 man at the barrier would not take our 
 word Vat it was the princess of Wale*. 
 Bergami and Vassali in consequence 
 went back (o luspruck for the pass- 
 ports. He did not return till two in 
 the morning. This was on our way to 
 Vienna. I remember our arrival at 
 Trieste ; the governor wzis sick in bed ; 
 the vice governor came to receive her 
 royal highness at the inn. That even- 
 ing her royal highness went to the 
 Opera. We left Trieste t.e following 
 day, at five or six o'clock in the even- 
 ing. I positively recollect this ; 1 have 
 a particular reason for recollecting this 
 fact. I have a letter that I wrote at 
 that time from Venice ; it is a letter to 
 a lady whom I have since married* 1 
 have that letter ; it has the Venice post 
 mark upon it. There is a passage in 
 that letter which leads me to the con- 
 clusion that we left Trieste at the time 
 I have mentioned; it is dated the 1 8th, 
 at V^euice, and says, ** iVe arrived here 
 last night." We arrixed at 1 rieste on 
 the 14lh ; it is a journey of 24 hours 
 post from Trieste to \'enice. On the 
 night of leaving Trieste, we st ppcd a 
 short time at a small village, in conse- 
 quence of something h vmg happened 
 to one of the carriages. It was bad 
 weather. 1 ito ni»t recollect the name 
 of that vil'age ; it was after descending 
 a high hill. 1 remember a gentleman 
 of the name of baron Ompteda; he 
 was constantly in the habii of visiting 
 at her royal highness's housr. lie vi- 
 sited her at Naples and Genoa; he 
 dined at Genoa. At that me The- 
 odore Majocchi was with her royal 
 highness. It was his duty to wait at 
 dii^ner. Isawth' Baron On»ptt da again 
 at Milan, and at Como also ; he was 
 visiting at her royal highness's. I re- 
 member his coming to the ^ ilia Ail- 
 lani. Sometimes he stopped a I night ; 
 once for two days I think. There was 
 a room in the house called the Daron 
 Qmpteda's room : he always occupied 
 the room appointed for him. At the 
 time I have lasc mentioned, Theodore 
 Majocchi was still a servant in the 
 
J. R. now NAM. 
 
 375 
 
 liouse. I have myself conversed witl 
 Majocchi at Konie, some time alter 
 €)nipteda had been at Como, respect- 
 ing: Ompte(Ia, In th course of the 
 \ ci nversation I nientiwiied Ompteda's 
 ^ name. In the course of our tra- 
 vels we were very frequently shown 
 into rooms of entertainment where 
 beds w<re standing. There was no- 
 thing at all uncommon in this. I re^ 
 collect her royal highness giving me 
 some directions respecting Ompteda. 
 In consequence of a representation 
 fr;om her royal highnes-, T called out 
 the Baron Ompteda. At Rome, in con^ 
 sequence of a further representation 
 from her royal highness, I told the 
 servants of the house not to molest or 
 take any notice of Baron Ompteda, if 
 they should meet him. I recollect 
 her royal highness frecjuently visiting 
 the servants when ill in bed ; particu- 
 larly a man named C tnera, who was 
 very ill indeed, and supposed to have 
 the plague. This was at Jerusalem. 
 Her royal highness was received at the 
 different courts she visit(.'d by persons 
 of the first distinction, except at tht- 
 court of VicHna. Lord Stewart was 
 ambassador at Vienna. The conduct 
 and demeanour of the princess upon 
 those occasion'^ was every thing that 
 "was majesty and grace. J rem mber 
 her royal highness travelling from An- 
 co»a to Rome. 1 can't say positively 
 ■who waf courier on that occasion. I 
 believe it was Carlo Forti. 1 remem 
 ber a subsequent journey from Rome 
 to Senigaglia. Her royal Iiighness 
 travelled on that occasion in an Eng- 
 lish landaul'et. 1 travelled in an Eng- 
 lish landau. Coimt Schiarini, De 
 IVlont, and her sister, accompanied me. 
 I remen ber on the journey from, R( me- 
 to Senigaglia, the countess of Oldi, 
 ■who rode with the princess, being 
 taken ill. She came to my carriage, 
 and De Moat took her place. We 
 went tack from Senigaglia to R me. 
 This was the only journey we took to 
 Senigaglia. On our journey from Rome 
 the horses in her royal highness's car- 
 riage took fright, i have formed part 
 of her royal highness's suite since 
 April, 1815, and Mfas actually living 
 ■with her royal highness till April, 1818. 
 During the whole of that iime I have 
 never seen any thing in the conduct of 
 the princess towards Bergami, or in 
 Bergami towards the princess, impro- 
 per, indecent, or degrading to her 
 royal highness's station. While 1 was 
 
 li with her royal highness I had a salary 
 
 j of 200/. a year: that salary is continued 
 
 I to the pr* sent time. 
 
 j Cross-examined by the ATTORNEY- 
 GEN E'RAL. 1 have been a lieutenant 
 
 j in the Navy since 180.9 ; 1 was six years 
 in the Navy before that time. My fa- 
 
 I ther was in the service of the Princess; 
 he was her page. He was always in 
 
 j the service of his pres nt Majesty, that 
 of the Princess Charlotte, or of the 
 
 I Princess Her Royal Highness in- 
 terested herself in my proraotiea. 
 Through her good offices I was pro- 
 
 I moted^o the rank of lieutenant. I do 
 
 • not kiK)W in what capacity exactly I 
 joined the princess's suite at Genoa. 
 I was receiving the salary of an equerry, 
 I understood. We were six weeks at 
 Genoa before we quitted it for Milan. 
 
 [ Hergami was a courier at that time, 
 and wore the dress of a courier, it was 
 ten or twelve days after our arrival at 
 Milan when her royal highness was 
 left without an English lady of honour. 
 
 { The countess of Oldi joined the prin- 
 cess in one or two days after. Faustina 
 came to Genoa with the chiU^ Victoririe. 
 Bergami's mother also came there, 
 Louis Bergami was likewise in the fa- 
 mily, tie was at Genoa before I went. 
 He was a page and wore a sort of uni- 
 form. In the tour to St.Gothard, Ber- 
 gami was dressed in a courier's dress, 
 but rode in a carriage with Hierjony- 
 mus. In the course of that tour lie 
 dined with her royal highness at Bel- 
 linzona. Professor ulochetti also ac- 
 compaiiied her royal highness, and a 
 man who lived in the mountains dined 
 with them. On the return he dined 
 with her royal highness it Lugano ; he 
 was then in a courier's dress. He dined 
 on other occasions with her royal high- 
 ness in the same dress. At the Villa 
 D'Kste I have frequently seen her royal 
 highness and Bergami together, on 
 shore, as well as in a small canoe on 
 the lake. At that time I have seen 
 them walk arm in arm. 1 have stated 
 that during the whole course of the 
 time 1 have been with her royal high- 
 ness I saw nothing improper, inilecent, 
 or degrading to her situation, in hgr 
 conduc towards Bergami. I have seen 
 her royal highness dining with Ber- 
 gami in a courier's dress. I afterwards^ 
 at the Villa D'Este, saw them walking 
 arm in arm. I also sa.v them go out 
 in a boat alone together. I do not con- 
 sider those tkiags degrading to htr 
 royal highness. I never entreated hey 
 
276 
 
 DFFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 royal highuess not to admit Bergami 
 to her table, 1 nevep stated that, 
 ** With tears in my eyes, and on my 
 knees, I entreated her royal highness 
 not to aihuit Bergami to her table, 
 ■without effect." I have no recollection 
 of tiie fact, I never did, 1 do not re- 
 collect having stated so to captain 
 Briggs. I di) not believe I did. After 
 sir Wm Rurrell left, her royal high- 
 ness was frequently in the liabit of 
 amusing herself with the servants. I 
 have seen her play at the game of 
 blinthnan's buff. 1 was the only Eng- 
 lisli person in her royal highness's 
 service when Bergami began to dine 
 Avith her. I do not recollect her royal 
 highness performing the part of Co- 
 lumbine at the Villa D'Este. Louis 
 Bergami performed there, and all her 
 royal highness's household. I do not 
 recollect a dance, there were 250 per- 
 sons. I think her royal highness per- 
 formed the part of an automaton. It 
 represented something respecting a 
 man who wished to sell an automaton, 
 which was a woman, in fact, that could 
 wind up any thing (great laughter). 
 The princess was the automaton. 1 do 
 not recollect her performing the part 
 of a milkmaid. Before Bergami went 
 on the long voyage, he was not raised 
 to the rank of baron, he was raised to 
 that rank before leaving Sicily. I do 
 not know where Bergami slept on the 
 return voyage from Jaffa. I heard that 
 Bergami slept under the tent with the 
 princess, and 1 believe he did. I do 
 not think, knowing that fact, that it 
 was degrading to the princess — I think 
 it w^as necessary that some person 
 should sleep near her royal highness 
 on that occasion. I heard that other 
 persons did, so also. 1 might have seen 
 her royal highness and Bergami walk 
 arm in arm on the deck — her royal 
 highness could not walk the deck vvith- 
 out having the arm of somebody. Ber- 
 gami's motfcer dined constantly at her 
 royal highness's table at Pesaro, as did 
 L«ui3 Bergami. 
 
 Re-examined by Mr. TINDALL. I 
 considered it absolutely necessary that 
 some person should sleep under the 
 tent on board the polacca with her 
 royal highness. We did not know any 
 thing of the crew. The amusements 
 among the household at the Villa 
 D'Este, at which her royal highness 
 was present, were among the upper 
 servautsc ; the footmen were not pre- 
 sent. There was an English sailor on 
 
 board named James Adams. I hare 
 not spcn him since. 
 
 By Earl GREV. When you stated 
 that you thought it necessary that some 
 person should sleep with her royal 
 highness, did you mean to Uate that 
 you thought it necessary that some 
 male attendant should sleep near her 
 royal highne^s-r-T-l did. 
 
 Under the circumstances under which 
 you believe Bergami to have slept under 
 the tent, did it conyey to your mind 
 any suspicion of an improper connexion 
 between him and the princess? — No, it 
 did not. 
 
 By the Earl of LIMERICK. You 
 have stated that several other persons 
 besides Bergami slept in the tent on 
 board the pola -ca. (" No, no," from 
 several peers.) 
 
 On the occasions when }ou state that 
 you believe Bergami slept in the tent, 
 had you reason to think that any third 
 person, male or female, slept in the 
 tent.' — I do not know. 
 
 { Can you swear that you never saw 
 
 j Bergami kiss the princess.'^ — 1 will 
 
 ; swear that 1 never saw him k ss the 
 
 I princess. 
 
 I understood you to say, on a late 
 
 ! part of your cross-examination, that 
 you thought it necessary that a person 
 
 I should sleep under the tent with the 
 princess : 1 beg to ask from what you 
 conceive that necessity to arise ? I 
 never represented the necessity myself 5 
 but, on the occasion of Speaking of it, 
 I must confess 1 thought it necessary 
 for somebody to be near her royal high- 
 ness. A woman alone on a ship's deck 
 at sea 1 should think perfectly autho- 
 rized in having some person near her. 
 Were any suspicions entertained by 
 you of the crew, or any part of it? 
 None. 
 
 Then k was not from any apprehen- 
 sion of the crew that you conceived it 
 
 I necessary that a man should sleep in 
 the same tent ia the dark with the 
 Princess of Wales.? When I saw It 1 
 looked upon it in that way. 
 
 In what way? That it was not im- 
 
 ; proper that he should sleep there, the 
 
 I princess being on deck by herself. 
 
 I Then you do not conceive there is 
 any impropriety in a male person sleep- 
 ing in the same tent with a female, the 
 light being out? From the manner, 
 the hatches being open, and all fhe 
 doors below, I do not. There was no 
 mystwy in it whatever. 
 1 Leg to ask you whether you woul4 
 
J. R. nOWNAM. 
 
 277 
 
 like your wife— (No, no, and some 
 Vaughter,) — would you have any objer- 
 tion, <»r con( cive it improper ihat Mrs, 
 ilowuani ?houUI so sleep in a tout with 
 a n»ale person' Every man, 1 trust, 
 looks . -it his wife without mfikin^ any 
 comparison or exception. 1 never made 
 any comparison. 
 
 Then you cannot form any opinion 
 upon it f 1 ciuiuit. 
 
 I be§: to know wliether you see any 
 . impropriety, situated as the tent was, 
 with the hatches open, in a male and 
 female so sleepina:? I do not conceive 
 there was any impropriety, he au e if 
 there had been I must have felt it. 1 
 have >?eeu the princess in so many situ- 
 ations durintf her travels, that I do not 
 look upon it as improper. 
 
 What do you mean by saying that 
 you have seen the princess in so many 
 situations durinz her travels? I haye 
 seen her under a sorry shed at Ephesus, 
 under which we should hardly put a 
 cow in this country, in the midst' of 
 horses, mules, and Turks ; it did not 
 strike me as improper. 
 
 Vou said that the princess played the 
 part of an automaton ? Yes. 
 
 Vou say that the automaton was sold, 
 and consequently bought. What did 
 the automaton do: was she sitting, 
 lying, .running, or what? In a box, 
 standing up, 1 think. 
 
 Do you think that these acts stated 
 by you are consonant with the high 
 dignity of the royal personage about 
 whom we have bepn speaking ? I do 
 not think them any degradation from 
 her royal highness's rank, knowing 
 the pleasure she takes in that sort of 
 entertainmeni. 
 
 Four o'clock having arrived, the 
 Lord Chancellor adjourned the house 
 amid considerable confusion. 
 
 THURSDAY, October 12. 
 
 Lieutenant John Robert Hownam's 
 examination by the Peers, continued. 
 
 By Lord CARNARVON. After I 
 joined her royal highness she never 
 was at Trieste but once. 
 
 By Lord KINGSTON. I do not 
 know the reason for Bergami being 
 selected to sleep under the tent with the 
 princess in preference to myself. It is 
 net customary for a centinel to sleep 
 oil his watch. 
 
 By Lord DARNLEY. On other oc- 
 casions than that on board the polacca, 
 when Bergami slept near her royal 
 
 hjglnuss, there was no mystory what' 
 ever. 1 must here confe-s that in the 
 conduct of BerHfauli, as servant to her 
 royal highness, that he was excessively 
 attentive to lus duty; he was from his 
 fidelity more likely to be selected to 
 guard licr royal highness than any 
 other servant. No suspicion was ever 
 entertained in consequence of the cir*- 
 cumst-ince 1 have mentioned. I am 
 well aoqtiainted with Lieut. Flynn. J 
 believe hjm to be a perfect man of 
 honour. 
 
 By Lord DE DUNSTANVILLE. 
 When Lieut. Flynn slept on deck, I 
 thinii her royal highness was suHi- 
 ciently protected ; but his being there 
 was not constant. If he had slept there 
 the whole of the voyage from Jaffa to 
 Syracuse, there might still have'been 
 ujanv reasons for a person sleeping in 
 the tent — an accident iu tie tent — the 
 sea breaking over the tent— or other 
 occurrences. 
 
 By Earl (iROSVENOR.— From the 
 circuinsiances preceding my c;il!ing 
 out Haron Ompteda, — the attach on 
 the house, — and other things, her 
 royal highness mentioned to me that 
 sho had apprehensions of her personal 
 safety; and iu consequence of those 
 apprehensions, she expressed to me a 
 wish to be more closely attended by 
 the male part of her attendants. She 
 desired to have some person always 
 near her, but 1 cannot state the pre- 
 cise words. 
 
 By Lord CO'MBERMERE— If t*jc 
 reasons for a person being in the tent 
 with her royal highness were such as I 
 have stated, namely, an accident, or a 
 sea breaking over the tent, I think a 
 seafaring man, such as myself or Cap- 
 tain Flynn, might have been bett/er to 
 have been under the tent with her 
 royal highness than Bergami. 
 
 By the Marquis of DOWNSHIRE. 
 The quarrel between me and the baron 
 Ompteda arose from the confessions of 
 a servant. I saw the servant on his 
 knees, begging pardon for his crime. 
 The servant was kneeling before the 
 princess. His name was Maurice 
 Credi. 
 
 Lord LAUDERDALE objected to 
 this answer as irregular. The con- 
 fession of a servant could not be evi- 
 dence. 
 
 Earl GREY contended, that all the 
 witness had stated was, that there was 
 a servant on hi* knees, and that the 
 name of that servant was Maurice 
 
278 
 
 DM f NCK OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 Credi. There was no mention of any 
 circumstance which came out in that 
 confession. It was a simple fact, and 
 ought to remain in the minutes. 
 
 After some conversaiion between 
 Lord Hollaud, the Lord Chancellor, 
 the Marquis of Buckinj^hanishire, and 
 Earl Carnarvon, the answer was per- 
 mitted to stand. 
 
 Examination continued. Maurice 
 Credi was the servant of her royal 
 highness. 
 
 Was it in consequence of what Mau- 
 rice Credi said, that you called out the 
 Baron Ompteda? 
 
 The LOKI) CHANCELLOR thought 
 this quesiioH ought not to he put. 
 
 The Marquis of J)OVVNSHlRE 
 thought he was at liberty to put the 
 question. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL consi- 
 dered that as they were bound by the 
 rules of law they ousrht to abide by 
 those rules, and not at this season of 
 the enquirx lo abandon them. 
 
 Ear.l GR!'^ was of the same opinion, 
 and the question was not pressed . 
 
 Ex mination renewed. 1 do not 
 know where Maurice Credi lives but 
 from hear- ay 1 l.ave heard that he 
 is in S n<iUnd, I do not know with 
 ■whom Majo' chi never vrjentioned 
 Orapteda's nam- t<>methat I r> collect. 
 By Lord FAI MOU I'H.— v he 1 
 saw her royal h :ihne^s walking arm in 
 arm with Bergami at the Villa d'Este, 
 1 do not recollect that they were alone. 
 I do not recolh ct seeing her royal 
 highness walking arm in arm with 
 Bergami while he was a courier. 
 
 By Lord HOOD — I'ergami dined at 
 the princess's table at Milan, Como, 
 and the Villa Vdlani. Viajo chi waited 
 at table on these occasions. 
 
 By the Duke of ATHOL. -I ne^er 
 expressed to her royal highness herself 
 that it was necessary for her male at- 
 tendants to sleep near her, I thought 
 it was necessary a person should sleep 
 near her royal highness. Her royal 
 highness thought so likewise. I do not 
 know that there was any immediate 
 danger to be apprehended on board 
 the polacca. If I thought there was 
 any personal danger, I shoiild not have 
 »lept below myself. 1 never recom- 
 mended that any pers<.n should sleep 
 under the tent. I kn«w of no imme- 
 diate personal danger to be appre- 
 hended on board the polacca. I never 
 recommended that any peieon fthould 
 «le9p under the tent. 
 
 Examined by Lord GRANTHAM.— 
 I dined with the princess at C'urlsrhue, 
 when she dined with (he Grand Duke 
 and the Margravine hi^ motocr. Be- 
 tween the dinner parties and supper 
 parties (he princess might have returned 
 liome. I do not recolI(^ct that she did. 
 Examined by Lord DARLING- 
 TON. — When i^ergami. Camera, and 
 Majocchi, took leave of the princess 
 when they were goiilgon shore at Tar* 
 raciria, I do not know that Ber<»-ami 
 had previously taken leave of the 
 princess Every bodv was on deck. T 
 do not know that the princess !,;,d been 
 beli»\v. I hav<^ never seen Bergami take 
 leave of ihe princess in a v\ay diflerent 
 I from the rest of her suite. I never saw 
 I him do juore than kiss her hand. Her 
 I royal highnc'ss always reposed under 
 ! the tent in her clothes. I do not think, 
 she took her clothes off the whole of the 
 voyage from Jaffa, except to change 
 ; Ihem, and this was done in her cabin 
 I below in the day time- This is my firm 
 belief. I do not think that Bergami 
 i ever took his clothes off while sleeping 
 \ under the tent, I have seen Mahomet 
 
 dance at the Villa D'Este. I was in 
 her royal highness's room, and heard a 
 noise in the court-yard. Her majesty 
 went to the window, and I followed 
 ber, and we saw Mahf»met exhibiting 
 I'is dance before many persons. I did 
 not take notice whether Majocchi was 
 there. Most certainly I did not con-? 
 ceive there was any indecency or irar- 
 propriety in that dance. Saw Captain 
 Briggs at Portsmouth about two 
 months ago. He declined holding any 
 conversation on fhi> subject. 
 
 By lord ELLENBOROUGH.— 
 My reason for wishing to converse with 
 captain Briggs was, that I had heard 
 he was to be a witness against the 
 queen. I did n«t believe it, and went 
 to inform myself. He said he thought 
 he might be called ; but th .t his testi- 
 mony should be nothing but what was 
 honourable and just. 1 met him again 
 in this house. We shook hands, and 
 he said, when he came out, he hoped 
 we sh(Kild shnke hands again. I recol- 
 lect seeing her royal highness under the 
 tent in the polacca, in the day time. 
 She was asleep, and I closed tne tent 
 to protect her from the sun. I can 
 positively say \ never recollect to bav» 
 seen any other peison under the teiJt 
 when it was so closed. 1 have a tho- 
 rough conviction that the hatch, codq^ 
 municatipg bet^^en the tent and tfeSei 
 
S. I.UIGIANI. 
 
 2n 
 
 tlinHi^ room, was open day and night. 
 To have oloso(i ihe hatchway the tciit 
 must have Imcn removed. 1 nevwr saw 
 (he h tihe^ uijiUt the tent. Afauricc 
 Credi contluufd in t e priiiccsss ser- 
 vice afier 1 >a\v iiint on is .iices, from 
 the bcji'iiijins;- ui Nov. till the March 
 iollowmo^^. He tben went 'o live with 
 the pnu'jcss's aunt as a courier. J ne- 
 ver saw the tent on ileoK quite closed 
 in the (Jiy time. 
 
 Exauiine;! by Earl GRK> . — I never 
 saw tlie tent so cl sed in the (Jay time, 
 that a person on deck could not have 
 sten who was in it. 
 
 By Lord MANSllELU — I wrote my 
 own challen^;e to Baion Ompteda in 
 my own h nd writing-. It was in Eng- 
 lish. 
 
 Fy Lord f^ROSVENOR.— I!er ro-al 
 highness expressed great mipatience to 
 get on shore on ihe vnyag' from Sy- 
 racuse, as tier legs were very much 
 swelled in const'(}uence of her not 
 having been in bed durijjg the voyage. 
 1 never saw her ro>al higlmesj's legs. 
 Her royal Highness told me they were 
 •welled. 
 
 ByLOIlDLAUDER-DALE. — no(h 
 Bergaini aiul L mis Biirgami, Ijiivo 
 uaiud at tuble when I dined with 
 the princess. I afterwards saw Ber- 
 gauii, Louis Bt^rj^ami, tlie Countess of 
 Oldi his sifter, and his mother, at her 
 royal bighness's table. 1 never saw 
 Bergaa.i's wife in my life. 1 had no 
 greater claims to sit at her royal liigh- 
 ness's table than Bt r^ami- I hfive seen 
 persons >ittii>g at her royal higlme^s's 
 table wiiose fathers Imve wailed at her 
 table, and knowing the affable way she 
 treated ever} per>o!i in her family, 1 
 will Venture to say, that I never saw 
 any condiict in her royal higimess 
 that was ai all improper or indecorous, 
 nor dill I conceive that the fact of Ber- 
 gami's being under the tent on board 
 the polacca, couM !;e construed into 
 anything criminal. If hermajesly did 
 a person <if inferior rank the honour to 
 Command him to sit down with her. I 
 think a person of higher rank than a 
 lieuienarit would not degrade himself 
 by dining with such a person. 
 
 By the Duke of CLARENCE.— I 
 and Lieut, (ilynn were the only persons 
 in her majesty's service who understood 
 the sea service. J never offered to 
 sleep in the tent to assist her royal 
 higbnMs. The English sailor was dis- 
 charged because he liad a quarrel with 
 
 j tlie c;)ok. Tiiat was the only reason I 
 
 ever heard f«ir his discharge. 
 j IJy Lord CALTIIORFE.— I never 
 , heaid of spies being em jiloyed to watch 
 j her royal highness except from the cou- 
 ! feb.3ions of Credi. The coui ier's dress 
 j worn by Berg:anii was green and gold 
 I turned up w iiii scarlet. It was a very 
 I rich dress. 
 
 : By a PEER.— When Rergami dined 
 • wiili her royal high'esi> in his courier's 
 
 dre?c, he sat neai her roval nighness. 
 I By (he LORi) CHANCELLOR.— I 
 I bad a Genoesescrvant named Francisco. 
 , I last saw him at Mr. V^izard's. Wit- 
 i ness withdrew. 
 
 EIGflTEENTH WITNESS. 
 GRANVILLE sHAiiPE, I <q. sworn 
 and examin«'d. — lam in the East India 
 service. In (he army. I have seen the 
 iVJooiish dance, iliere called " dimar ! 
 diuiar!" It was accompanied by dif- 
 ferent unmeaMing souniis. There was 
 certainly notiiing indecentin that dance, 
 or unlit for a woman to witness. The 
 
 hands were throwi about 
 
 in various po- 
 
 sitions, principally about the head. 
 The .\nees are bent together, atid the 
 daijcer curtsies, i have seen this at 
 Calcu ta, in the government house. 
 The governor at that time was the 
 iVIarquis of Hastings. He and the 
 Marchioness were present at the time, 
 and other ladies- The bishop of Cal- 
 cutta poud laughter) and his lady were 
 likewise pr* seiit- There certainly was 
 nothing indecent in it. 
 
 Cross examined by Mr. PARKE. — 
 Other dances were danced in the East 
 Indies, some of them quicker One 
 person only dances the dance I have 
 spoken of. 1 believe there are no other 
 dances tt»ere at which the ladies may 
 not be present. 
 
 NINETEINTll WITNESS 
 SANTENO LlilGIANI sworn and 
 exatuiaed. I have been in the service 
 of her royal highness as factor. My 
 duties were to keep the watch over the 
 working people— to keep the accounts 
 — to pay them on a Saturday uight — to 
 distribute the wine, and do all other 
 things in the house which the master 
 commanded me. This was at the Villa 
 D'Este, in the garoens, vineyards, &c. 
 I know Luigi Galvini . he is a mason 
 by trade. I employed him at twolivres 
 of Milan per day. I have heard of a 
 person of the name of Raggazzoni as 
 
280 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 having been a m^son at the Villa, and 
 perhaps I miglit have seen him. I do 
 not know Paulo l{aj:;o;az/.oiii. I re- 
 member the j^rolto at the Villa d'Este. 
 I remember two statues of Adam and 
 Eve in that grotto, in the lirst rotunda ; 
 there were two other rotundas. There 
 was no cornice n-ude in that rotunda; 
 there v\as no ticallbld erected or work 
 done in the rotuiuki where the statues 
 were. There was a cornice in one of 
 the oiher rotur.dr.s ; it was impossible 
 for the person in the rotunda with the 
 cornice in it to see into the rotunda 
 without a cornice, because the passage 
 was cro<;kcd. and prevented the siL-,ht. 
 The Ijgurcs of Adam and Eve had 
 been rcnjcved from the rotunda in 
 which they had stood, before her royal 
 hii;!jnes5i's return from Turkey; they 
 were removed into one of the Mosaic 
 rooms in the palace, which was newl) 
 built. The workmen had been re- 
 moved from the grotto. This was 
 about eight or ten days before her 
 royal highness's arrival. These rooms 
 were made fit for her royal highness's 
 reception. Where the statues were 
 was a square room : the second w as a 
 low, small, cjkblong- cabinet; the room 
 bcyOnd was an octagon or round room, 
 with columns. No person in the oc- 
 tagon room could see the statues of 
 Adam and Eve, for they were by the 
 side of the opening. 
 
 Cross-examined by Mr. PARKE. 
 — 1 was born at the Villa d'Este. The 
 figures of Adam and Eve were in the 
 grotto, in the first octagon room. 
 There were six rooms in the grotto, 
 comprising the round and square rooms. 
 They were not all on the same story. 
 The witness then described the dif- 
 ferent rooms of the grotto. I came 
 regularly from the Villa d'Este here. 
 I have seen several persons taking de- 
 signs at the Villa d'Este, but do not 
 know for what. I saw an artist of the 
 pame of Raiti taking designs more than 
 three or four months ago. Ralti lives 
 at Milan. I came here with fourteen 
 witnesses. We are paid by the order 
 of Chevalier Vjissali. I paid for the 
 victuals of all the fourteen whom I 
 brought, 1 did not apply to any per- 
 son to becon^e a witness. I set out on 
 the 10th of September. Before I came 
 I was examined at Milan, before an 
 advocate named Potadzi, and an Eng- 
 lishman of the name of Henry. I gave 
 th<? same account to them that I do 
 
 now. I am to have for coming here 
 fifty Napoleons for all the fifteen. I 
 have received nothing. I asked for 
 nothing ; but if her royal highness will 
 make me a present. 1 will receive it. 
 I came here to tell the truth- 1 will 
 not swear I do not expect money. I 
 came in a carriage by post. The Che- 
 valier Vassal! gave me money to pay 
 for our food. The courier Francois 
 paid the po.st. 
 
 Examined by Earl GROSVENOR. 
 — There was no column or pillar in the 
 grotto from which it was possible for 
 a person to see the statues of Adam 
 and Eve. (The witness produced a 
 plan, on which he explained the re- 
 lative situations of the statues and the 
 pillars.) 
 
 By Lord BLESSINGTON. —There 
 was a vine leaf, painted green, made 
 of tin, over the figures. These were 
 fastened by a cross wire. Both sta- 
 tues had leaves and wires. Wilien the 
 figures were removed into the Mosaic 
 room the leaves and wires remained. 
 
 TWENTIETH WITNESS. 
 GUISEPPE GAROLINI sworn, and 
 examined by Mr. WILLIAMS. — I 
 come from Milan. I am a master ma- 
 son. I have been employed for the 
 Princess of Wales atthe Villa D'Este. 
 I know a person of the name of Rag- 
 gazzoni. He was a daily workman. 
 He had no men in his employ. 1 gave 
 work 1,0 7 or 8 workmen, and they all 
 came together to be paid for their 
 work. I know the grotto in the Villa 
 d'Este. I remember work being done 
 in that grotto. I recollect the statues 
 of Adam and Eve. There was no cor- 
 nice work whatever in the room where 
 these statues were. There was no cornice 
 work in an octangular room, at the 
 top and in another room. These were 
 the only rooms in which they were at 
 work. They were at work upon the 
 cornice. They had scafi'olding up for 
 the purpose, to reach to the ceiling. 
 Scat!blding was put up in no other 
 part of the grotto, the octangular 
 room, and the square room. The 
 square room joined the octangular 
 room. The square room was the far- 
 thest from the statues. In no waj' 
 could the statues of Adam and Eve be 
 seen from the octangular room, be- 
 cause the passage was winding. Coming 
 from the octangular room there is ano- 
 ther room, then there is a passage, 
 
G. GAROLINI 
 
 281 
 
 and Ihcn anotlier room where the sta- 
 tues are. Tins is Iho passage 1 have 
 just alluded to. 'I Iiimc were stcj)s. 1 
 know a person of the name of Uas- 
 telli ; his other iiume is Cuiseppe. I 
 have not seen him in England. He 
 was away from Milan when it came 
 away. i>ome time before, we had been 
 together at an inn. 
 
 l)o you recollect at any lime any 
 thing being said about your working 
 for the princess ? 
 
 TheSOLICITOR-^GENERAL begged 
 to know to what part of the evidence 
 of Uastelli th(^ question last put was 
 directed. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS, in a low tone, men- 
 tioned several pages in the printed 
 minutes. The question was then re- 
 jjcated by the short-hand writer. 
 
 The SOLICITOII-GENEUAL ob- 
 jected to any inquiries as to conver- 
 sation between the witness and a third 
 person. He should be glad to hear 
 aav reason why tho question was put. 
 
 Mr. WILLI AMS.— l do not want the 
 conversation between the ])arties, but 
 I wish t«) establish the fact of Ras- 
 telli having applied to the witness to 
 give evidence in this country against 
 the queen, and tendering him money, 
 or what was equivalent to money, to 
 induce him to do so. 
 
 The SOLICITOR.GENERAL.--I 
 object to that, unless my learned friend 
 can show in Rastelli's evidence any 
 such circumstance mentioned, and that 
 the other side relied upon it. 
 
 Mr, WILLIAMS said, that he appre- 
 hended their lordships, for the pur- 
 poses of justice, would consider it ex- 
 tremely material to ascertain what in- 
 ducements had been held out to wit- 
 nesses—what hopes or expectations of 
 profit had been raised in them, in or- 
 der to make it desirable for them to 
 give evidence in support of the bill. 
 Independent, however, of this general 
 ground, there was a particwlar reason, 
 in this instance, for allowing the ques- 
 tion to be put ; for it appeared in se- 
 veral parts of the printed minutes, and 
 from the admission of Rastelli himself, 
 that he had been employed by the 
 Milan commission to collect evidence, 
 and that he had actually sent one of 
 the witnesses. These facts appeared 
 on pages 234 and 411 of the pjintetl 
 evidence. The analogies of the courts 
 below, regarding tlu; responsibility of 
 agents, would not apply iu this case ; 
 For it was iiniK)Ssible to show that 
 
 36* 
 
 Rastelli was agent io the promoter of 
 this measNire, whoever it might be. 
 Nobody knew who was the support«r 
 of the bill: it was a mystery not yet 
 solved. There was, l:owever, fixed 
 upon Rastelli a degree of activity, or, 
 to speak in the language of the law, of 
 agency, which showed that it was very 
 material to inquire into the steps he 
 had taken. 
 
 The LORD CHANC^.ELLOR inter- 
 rupted the Solicitor General, who was 
 about to reply, by observing that it was 
 four o'clock, and that the discussion 
 could not, probably, be concluded to- 
 day. Before the couu el withdrew 
 however, he wished to refer them to 
 page 412 of the printed minutes, where 
 it actually appeared that Rastelli had 
 sworn that he had not oflered money 
 to any body to become a witness. If 
 so, the other side had a right to con- 
 tradict him. 
 
 Mr. BUOUGHAM observed, that Mr. 
 Williams rested his question upon two 
 grounds — first, the agency of Rastelli ; 
 and next, the propriety of contradict- 
 ing him. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR added 
 that tlie passage he had pointed out 
 seemed t<) him very material. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM thought that jt 
 in fact dispensed with the necessity, 
 of further argument on the point. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said 
 that he was npt aware that Rastelli 
 had go sworn; but if the other side 
 could call any body to show that he 
 had offered money to witnesses, they 
 had, of course, a right to do so. 
 
 The Lord Chancellor then adjourned 
 the house. 
 
 FRIDAY, October 13. 
 Guiseppe Garolini continued:--! 
 said yesterday I was employed as head 
 builder at the Villa D'Este, Before 
 her royal highness set out for the long 
 journey I was paid regularly. After 
 her departure we entered into a con- 
 tract of 15,000 livres. I did the work 
 under the direction of Rari, the ar- 
 chitect, who made me much greater 
 woi k, and the sum amounted to 145,500 
 livros. I saw Rastelli when that, sum 
 of money was con)iii'g to me. I i cmem- 
 ber Rastelli asking mo what was my 
 bill against her royal highness, and I 
 told Sim, after deducting what I had 
 received, I hat it amounted to 45,500 
 livres. Kastclli spoke to me on the 
 subject of this debt. 
 
282 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEES'c 
 
 the SOLICITOR.GENERAL.--. 
 Does your lordship think a conver- 
 stitit)!. with Kastelli can be received in 
 evidence ? ' 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR— If 
 it shall ajjpear that Rastelli has oflTered 
 him jn<)n<*y to come as a witness, Ras- 
 tehi havfhji'iTenied that he made such 
 olfer. I think it .can. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL con- 
 ^idered, that it should appear to their 
 Lordships, in the first instaocc, that 
 Rastelli should have been examined 
 to this particular conversation, in or- 
 der that he might have an opportunity 
 to ex'plaln what really did pass. 
 
 Mr. WILLLAMS Baid this was 
 merely a iHohef of getting at a fact. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR appre- 
 hended ihut the question could be put 
 in this way — " Whether the witness 
 knew that Rastelli had ofiered to him 
 any money, or any advantage, for com- 
 ing here a^ a witness." When that ques- 
 tion was asked, then would arise a point 
 uijon which the opinion of the House 
 could be taken. 
 
 Question put to the witness— 
 • Did Rastelli offer you any money ? 
 He said if my account had not been 
 Hquiduted, lie wo old contrive to see 
 
 . What did Rastelli say the witness 
 was to do for that ? He told me to 
 give my account to him, for there were 
 Englishmen at Biilau, and ho would see 
 me paid. 
 
 •>>l«l Rastelli svty at the same time 
 what witness was ta do in order to be 
 paid? I?e told me if I had Anything 
 i«» say against her royal highness, for 
 I had been a long time in her service, 
 to tell it to him, and he would endea- 
 vour to make me be paid. 
 
 At that same timCj or at any Other 
 time, had he any other conversation 
 with Rastelli as to what he was to do? 
 
 The 80L1C1T0R-GKNERAL ap- 
 prehended that this question, as to 
 a conversation could not be put. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR.—, 
 Not unless Rastelli's evidence shall 
 appear to justify such a question. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS then read the evi- 
 dence of Rastelli, in which be said he 
 was not engaged as an active agent, 
 but as a courier. ' 
 
 Mr, WILLIAMS referred to this as 
 a denial of agency on the subject of 
 the Milan Commission. The evidence 
 he was about to offer to their lordships 
 was the statement of Rastelli himself, 
 
 as to what lie bad done in Gollecliix.^ 
 witnesses against tfie queen, and iii 
 giving" to them sums of money to h»- 
 duee then) to C(»me ((irward, Upoii 
 this ground, he. thought, the question 
 he had put was perlecil}* admissible. 
 There were other pails ol the evidence 
 in which it was apparent that Kastelli 
 hrtd been concerned in colleciing wit- 
 nesses in Italy ; and, therefore, he 
 humbly, but coufidenily, submitted, 
 that lu shew ihe degree of credit to 
 which he was entitled, he was perfectly 
 justified in proving the character in 
 which he bad actually appeared. It 
 was also important to prove» with a 
 reference to the interests of his ilius- 
 trious ( Uent, how, and in what manner, 
 evidence had been obtained to come 
 forv%aril aganist her. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said, that hh 
 learned friend, had so ably f)ut the real 
 state tf this quesition, that it was 
 scarcely necessary for him to add one 
 word. The evidence now offered was 
 to contradict Rastelli in his assertion, 
 tbat he had not acted as an agent in 
 the opiocuration of witnesses against 
 the queen. If they had ktM^wn origin- 
 ally that Rastelli was to have been 
 called, they would have been prepared to 
 examine him to this point, but igno- 
 rant as they were of Rastelli's name, 
 it was impossible for them to have been 
 prepared to examine him to the conver- 
 sations with which they were now ac- 
 quainted. In his denial of having 
 acted as an agent, iiowever, he ap- 
 prehended he had said enough to eu- 
 liUe them to contradict him to that 
 fact, by shewing the conversations iu 
 which he had distinctly stated, that 
 he had offered money to persons to 
 come forward as witnesses. He con- 
 tended that they were justified in shew- 
 ing every thing which had been done 
 by the Milan commissioners auel their 
 agents in getting up this case. 
 
 Th^ SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, 
 that if his learned friend meant to con- 
 tradict Rastelli, he ought to have asked 
 him the precise questions upon which 
 that contradiction was to be given. The 
 truth was, that Rastelli, iu acting as 
 courier for the Milan Commission, had 
 acted as an agent; but unless it was 
 shewn that what he had done beyond 
 his mere character of courier was au- 
 thorized by the Milan Commission, ii 
 was not competent to his learned friend 
 to give evidence thereof^ fijr the pur- 
 pose of influencing tiiis inquiry. 
 
G. GAROLlNf. 
 
 •2S;l 
 
 The LORD CIIANCELLOfl desired 
 Air. Guriiey to read the (piestioi). — 
 The qnt'Siion haviiijj leeii read. 
 
 Lord KliSKlNE -aid. that as it was 
 apparent that Rastelli had iiiternjetldled 
 in ihe Milan Commission, it was ne- 
 cessary the evidence in (jiiestion sliould 
 be admitted. It was necessary all the 
 light possible should be thrown on this 
 dark transaction; nnd in tliis view he 
 considered that the hou>;e had a risjht 
 to have had the whole proceeding 
 ileared up to them ihronsjh the me- 
 dium of a Mr. Cooke, Mr. Powell, and 
 the other person^ enj^asjed in this mys- 
 terious affair. It was clear that Ras- 
 telli had acted as an auent ; and, in 
 order to satisfy their niinds. /)n this 
 subject, he thoujjht the extent to which 
 be had carried ihat agency ought to be 
 investii^ated. 
 
 Lord LIVERPOOL said, that with 
 respect to the gentleman at the head of 
 •the Milan Commission, he had lu) ob- 
 jection that that gentleman Rhould be 
 «iost thoroughly examined, and that 
 the house should be put in possession 
 of the whole history of the transaction 
 in which he had been engaged. (Hear, 
 bear). 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR was 
 of opinion that the question might be 
 legally put,' and the answer taken for 
 better or for worse; but, he appre- 
 hended, in point of law, that the 
 agency of the Milan Commission would 
 not be established by the acts of Ras- 
 telli, though the acts proved to have 
 been done by him might operate as a 
 contradiction to his evi fence upon the 
 subject of his supposed agency, admit- 
 ting him to hav^ denied it. The ques- 
 tion might be put tq try the witness's 
 veracity upon this point as well as 
 upon other parts of his evidetjce. His 
 lordship went through a detailed re- 
 view of Rastelli's evidence . on this 
 point, as a test of the propriety of the 
 question. The name t>f Mr. Cooke, 
 the barrister, being mentioned in the 
 evidence, his Lordship took occasion 
 to say, that as th s was the first time 
 that gentleman's name fell from his 
 lips in the course of this mtjuiry, he 
 mmt observe, that be had known that 
 gentleman for half a century, and a 
 more honourable mat) he did n^t know. 
 Adverting to the question now under 
 conaideraiion, it appeared to him, un- 
 der all the circumstances of the. case,' 
 ithat, safely and consistently with the 
 
 interests of juitioe, the evideoec ought 
 to be received. 
 
 Lord CARNARVON, with great 
 animation, observed, that, if ther:- was 
 a mind so constituted in the house as 
 hitherto to entertain doubts that the 
 case against the queon had completely 
 failed,, the Iproof now offered, and iu . 
 deed established, of subornation of wit 
 nesses, mus.t completely overwhelm the 
 strongest advocate of the bill with con- 
 fusion, and convince him that the fur- 
 ther progress of this most outrageous 
 measure would sign the death-warrant 
 of the British constitution, and bring 
 intocontempt every institution valuable 
 to the house itself, and upon which every 
 future prospect of England depended 
 (hear, hear). He could not treat the 
 point now raised for consideration as 
 a technical rule of law, because, by 
 proceeding in this measure at all> 
 the house had thrown aside all law 
 (hear, hear), and had even been com- 
 pelled, in several instances, to trace 
 back their steps, by the decision of the 
 judges of the land, who had been con- 
 salted on some parts of the case (hear, 
 hear) . If the evidence of the witnesses 
 hitherto examined in support of the 
 Queen's cause had not been sufficient 
 to establish Iter innocence in every un- 
 biassed and unprejudiced mind, the 
 proof which had now come out upon 
 the subj. ct of subornation must strike 
 every mind with irresistible force that 
 the ^ase had completely failed. Even 
 those individuals who had entangled 
 themselves in this proceeding, from 
 personal motives, or from private inte 
 rest, arising from expectations con- 
 nected with it, and had pinned them- 
 selves to a measure which reflected 
 disgrace and odium upon the country, 
 must now be convinced that they had 
 excited feelin;4S . in the public mind 
 threatening immediate and permaueujt 
 danger to the public peace, and to the 
 very existence of the crown (hear,.) 
 Popular feeling and sentiment, as they 
 regarded the institutions of the country, 
 must be their, pillars and props when 
 wisely directed ; but those feelings and 
 sentiments, when aioused in such , a 
 cause as t!iis, could not fail of sapping 
 the very foundation of civil gqvernmeni. 
 In this stage, then, of'tbe business, 
 and under the circumstances now dis- 
 closed, he implored their lordships to 
 put an cud to the proceedings, and de- 
 cide that the case, whether totally de- 
 
284 
 
 DEFRNCE OP THE QUEEN, 
 
 stroyed, or more or less proved, did not 
 present upon the face of it, any warrant 
 for sendinjj this bill of expediency to 
 the other heuse of Parliament. If the 
 charge now brought forward against 
 the agents in support of thg procedure 
 could be substantiated, and no doubt 
 there was proof to support it, there 
 could not be a peer in the house who 
 must not think that the greatest ser- 
 vice which could be lenderel to the 
 country, would be to put a stop to 
 a measure which hun^ like a stone, 
 dragging down the vital props of the 
 constitution. However painful to him 
 thus to interpose, he thous;ht he could 
 not best discharge the duties \\hich he 
 owed to the country as a Peer of Par- 
 liament, than to implore tl e house at 
 once to stop short in their perilous ca- 
 reer, when so much proof had been of- 
 fered upon the subject of subornation. 
 
 Lord DONOUGH MORE condemn- 
 ed the speech of his noble friend who 
 spoke last, as inflammatory and un- 
 precedented, and wholly unwarranted 
 upon a dry abstract question of evi- 
 dence. There was noibing in the case 
 which could authorise his noble friend 
 thus to start up, in the present stale 
 of this grave and serious question, for 
 the purpose of getting rid of the case 
 altogether. 
 
 Lord CARNARVON explained, that 
 what he called upon their lordships 
 to do, was to suspend the present 
 inquiry until the charge of bribery, 
 which had already been in some mea- 
 sure established, showld be further in- 
 vestigated, and that then, if the charge 
 was e?tabhshed, the bill should be al- 
 together withdrawn. 
 
 The examination of the witness was 
 then resumed. 
 
 The first time I had any conversa- 
 tion with Rastelliv was in coming out 
 of a boat. 1 had conversation also with 
 him at Hamburgh and other place?. 
 He told me at Milan, that he had been 
 after witnesses into ray country, and 
 had conversed with them, and had 
 asked them whether they were willing 
 to depose against the queen, and that 
 then he asked them whether they 
 would go with him to Milan .' He 
 mentioned the names of several of the 
 witnesses to whom he had so spoken. 
 He had askeil them if tbey would go 
 with him to Milan. He tf Id me that 
 he had kept them sever: lays at the 
 inn, and paid them 40 francs each. 
 
 He said he had given 50 francs <o one 
 Raggazoni ; the same sum to Baro;!!2'(. 
 He mentioned the names of Francisco 
 15ai, Ambrozzo Gambini, and Cruza. 
 He said he had hired a post chaise for 
 them, and went into my country, and 
 paid their postage. 
 
 Cross-examined by the SOLICITOR- 
 GENKRAL.— The witness described 
 il)e distances of the residences of the 
 persons ji.st named from Milan, I 
 ha\e not been paid any thing for 
 comiui!: here, but I agreed with Ge- 
 ueral Pine, and am advocate — a d<>c- 
 tT, tkat I was to have 2,100 francs 
 for my los^ of time and busines*;, 
 which at iMichaelmas is considerable. 
 I am to have this besides my expenses. 
 I don't kiio\T the name of the advo- 
 cate ; he lires at Milan. I saw an 
 English gftuileman here, who read over 
 the paper writinj; . I saw Vassali about 
 the business ; I had never spoken to 
 him hefore. He never employed him- 
 self about my afl'airs. At that time I 
 was employed in General Pino's house 
 as a mason, doing work there- Gene- 
 ral Pino told me that, if I was willing 
 to go to jEngland, he would take care 
 to make me an indemnification for mv 
 loss. The Chevalier Vassali was to 
 pay me, as I understood. The bill 
 due to me by the princess was paid at 
 the etid of April, or beginning of May, 
 1819. I am to receive no other advan- 
 tage for coming here beyond what I 
 have mentioned, except the advanta<»-e 
 of sending me home asrain. 
 
 Examined by Lord LAUDERDALE. 
 Her royal highness had a ceiling 
 painted at the Villa D'Este. It was 
 painted in small pannels, and in the 
 middle there were some flowers. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM observed, that a 
 new case was now opening, and not bv 
 his Majest\'s Attorney-General. Not 
 a word about this ceiling had been 
 said before. He did hot object to go- 
 ing into this new case from any dread 
 of the consequences to her Majesty, 
 but merely in order to point out to 
 their lordships the great inconvenience 
 to which it would give rise. If a new 
 case, different from that stated by the 
 Attorney-General were gone into, then 
 must her Majesty's advisers be under 
 the necessity of asking a new delay in 
 order to meet it; and if they were to 
 have to Contend with one public pro- 
 secutor after another, there might be 
 no end to the husiuces. 
 
G. GAROLINT, 
 
 285 
 
 Lord LAUDERDALE contended 
 warmly that every Peer had a right to 
 put q(iesti(»ns rel;viive to any part of 
 lier royal hii^hness's conduct, without 
 beitis^ culled a puhlic prosecutor. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR said 
 that the rig:l)t was (pute clear. 
 
 Lord DAiiNLEY admitted the ri;jht ; 
 hut in a case of so complex, so anoma- 
 lous, so extraordinary a character as 
 the present, in which tlicir lordships 
 were both jud;^«3, jurors, leoi^la- 
 tors, and prosecutors, he thought it 
 was peculiarly their duty to lean to the 
 side of the accused ; and he couhl not 
 omit the opportunity of remarking;, 
 that there were some anion;;" their 
 lordshii>s who appeared not to he act- 
 in"; as impartial judjjes. (Order, 
 order). 
 
 Lord DE DUNSTANVILLE rose to 
 order. Such personal altercations were 
 most improper. 
 
 Lord DARNLEV explained. He 
 dill not accuse any particular indivi- 
 <]jiial ; he spoke g-enerally. He must 
 still say that he had seen a disposition 
 iu the House contrary to what he con- 
 •ceived and felt to be hh dntv. 
 
 Lord REDESDALE observed, that 
 some thinijs had pa-sed which mi;;ht, 
 perhaps, excuse the observation of the 
 nuble lord ; hut that certainly it was as 
 api)lical)le to one side of the House as 
 to the other. 
 
 The Earl of LAUDERDALE ^aid he 
 spoke strongly himself, and he allowed 
 others to speak as strongly; but 
 throughout his whole life he had never 
 done any thing but what in his con- 
 science he believed to be light. 
 
 The Eaifof DARN LEY explained. 
 
 The Witness withdrew. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM wi bed to learn 
 from the Attorney-General whether 
 Rastelli was accessible or not. In 
 short, whether be was in the country 
 or not; as he wished to call him, and 
 pnt some questiotis to him. 
 
 The ArrORNEY-GENERAL said 
 the learned gentleman must first satisfy 
 their lordships of the necessity of call- 
 ing him. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM : If the learned 
 Attorney-General will inform me that 
 Rastelli is not in the country, I need 
 not trouble their lordships on the sub- 
 ject. 
 
 The ArrORNEY-GENERAL said 
 that Rastelli had been sent tu Milan as 
 X courier, with dispatches. As soon 
 as he had learnt this fact, and auti(*i- 
 
 pating it might be necessary again to 
 call him, he (the Attorney-General) 
 had sent another courier to bring him 
 i hock, and he believed he might spee- 
 dily be expected. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM : Is it possible 
 that a person who has been examined 
 as a wit!ie«!s for the prosecution, has 
 been sent out of the country in the aer- 
 vicp of the Milan Commi'sion ? 
 
 The AITORNEY-GENERAL said, 
 Mr. Hrou^liam had put qtiestions to the 
 last witnc-s, which, he conceived, he 
 had no ri.;ht to put, in order tf) furnish 
 gro'uul for airain calling Rastelli. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM : My learned 
 frieml, or ratherthose who instruct him, 
 must have seen, that in the course of 
 my cross-examination of Rastelli, I 
 laid the foiuidation of his refutation ; 
 and that tiiey who defended him, ami 
 rested on his evidence, should have had 
 him 'ready to be produced whenever 
 he might be called. If there wa:? any 
 thing in this prosecution that ought 
 not to have been done, it was the send- 
 ing Rastelli out as an agent in this 
 Milan Commission. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said 
 it became necessary that the friends of 
 the witnesses for the prosecution, at 
 Milan, should be assured that they 
 were safe; and no person was thought 
 so proper to satisfy them as Rastelli 
 goiwg with letters from the witnesses 
 to their friends. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM did not rise to re- 
 ply, b\it to remind their lordships that 
 there was an end to all security against 
 the perjury of a witness, if he was to 
 be sent out of the country. ** How," 
 *aid the learned counsel, *' can I go on 
 with this case under such circum- 
 stances .'" 
 
 Lord HOLLAND, in a very ani- 
 mated speech, rose to advocate the 
 cause of justice. The fact which had 
 just come out at the bar of that house, 
 was njost monstrous (hear). When, at 
 the commencement of this case, it was 
 contemplated that perjury might be 
 committed by some of the witnesses, 
 it was asked that there should be some 
 security that the same checks and the 
 same [)enalties woidd be enforced as in 
 ordinary cases. The learned Lord on 
 the Treasury bench then declared, that 
 alihougli government felt some diffi- 
 culty in detaining foreigners, yet that 
 he would do every thing in his power 
 for the ends of justice. What now 
 appeared ? Why, that one of those men 
 
2,86 
 
 DKFKNCE OF THE QUKEN. 
 
 who may iiave been bribed to apf>ear 
 at yonr bar (bear, hear)— tliat this ruan 
 cross-examined by the counsel in 
 a manner thai sliewed he iiit«'n(le(l to 
 impeach his evidence — tliis man lias 
 been sent away (hear). It wasitnpo<:- 
 sihle that they cotdd fartlier submit 
 1o the odium of this ]»roceedin{f, and 
 contended that tbey wonhl do wi^e to 
 ^ct rid of the whole matter altoge- 
 ther. 
 
 Lord LIVERPOOL defended himself 
 from any participation in the act of 
 sending the witness a«ay — an act 
 which was not alone ill-jndsced, but 
 In^hly blaincable. He afqnitted the 
 Attorney and Solicilor General's of 
 havinj; iiad any kuoulcd*e oif the de- 
 j)artnre of Rastelii until he was °;'one, 
 and when they did know the fact tbey 
 insiantly sent to re-call binu 
 
 The Marquis of LANDSDOWN ad- 
 miited the explanation a<i far as con- 
 cerned the noble lord and his col- 
 leag^ues ; but it certainly required the 
 weis;bt of the noble lord's character to 
 defend him from the charg;e. The ne- 
 cessity of a defence from such a charade 
 was one of the calamities attendant 
 upon these proceeding's. But while 
 the house would ac({uit him of cri- 
 minality, tbey were bound to consider 
 the effect of such a circumstance, ns 
 that of which they had complained, 
 uf'On the interests of the queen. The 
 bouse was bound to do all that possibly 
 could be done to repair the eflfect of 
 such a course upon the interests of her 
 Majesty (hear, hear). 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR said, 
 that he certainly considered the mea- 
 sure extremely ill-judged. " I cannot 
 deny that an allowance must be made 
 for the absence of the witness, to the 
 tjueeu's cause, and I consider that those 
 who support the bill are bound to bring 
 him back. 1 consider that his exami- 
 nation upon a future day cannot be so 
 beneficial to the cause of the queen 
 as his examination at this moment 
 would be. You are bound then, my 
 lords, to make a liberal and large al- 
 lowance. I think, indeed, it is impos- 
 sible to repair the injury altogether. 
 But good God ! in justice to the queen, 
 as well as to the country, ilo not close 
 these proceedings in this stage of 
 them." The noble lord cfincluded by 
 calling upon their lordships to proceed 
 with the evidence mitil the witness 
 should return, atid upon bis return to 
 make a large allowance for the unfor- 
 
 tunate circumstance (hat had oc- 
 curred. 
 
 l.ord CARNARVON.— " I n-ree 
 with the !iitble lonl, that tlic inj.n v is 
 irreparable; but] n»U';t add, and in 
 doing so I speak the feelings nf thou- 
 sands, the only remedy is f(t put a » 
 er.d to these proceedings — these nlm- 
 minable proceedings — alt(»geiluM.*' He 
 concluded by moving, " Thnt flu* 
 House should adjourn to this day six 
 nionihs." 
 
 Lord ELLENROROUGM said, it 
 would yjc fatal m her majesty's reputa- 
 tion to cliiie proceedings in this stage 
 of them. 
 
 Lord GREY said, he never felt 
 greater difficulty than at this moraenr. 
 He trusted his lioble friend woidd not 
 persevere in his motion, but if he did, 
 he should give his assent to it, 'J'he 
 noble earl opposite had done himself 
 honotir by the manner in which he hail 
 reprobated the fact of sending away 
 this witness i but he must say it was a 
 great deal more than ill-judged — it was 
 most iniquitous. Looking at the windo 
 proceeding, and more particularly tt> 
 the situation- in- which the illustriotis 
 defendant was plnced by the forfeiture 
 of the pledgee which had been given to 
 her, be could not, if the motion was 
 pressed to a division, dootherwise than 
 vote for it. • 
 
 Lord LIVERPOOL agreed that if 
 substantial justite cpuld not be done, 
 thecaseshoiddbf; suspended altogether; 
 but he was convinced that substantial 
 justice niighi and would be done. Her 
 majesty might even be benefited bv the 
 postponement of Rastelli's re-examina- 
 tion, for the effect of it might probably 
 be to set-aside the evidence of that in- 
 dividual and all connected with him. 
 IF the House were to suspend tlu'ir 
 proceedings, they would neither (U> 
 justice to her majesty, nor satisfy ihe 
 public mind. 
 
 Lords LAUDERDALE and ELLEN- 
 BOROUGH followed on the same side, 
 against (he motion. 
 
 Lord MORLEY hoped" his noble 
 friend would not press his motion; 
 a division, in the present stage would 
 be extremely painfirr to the private 
 feelings of their lordships. 
 
 Lord ALVANLEY wished to know 
 who was the persoti who had sent Ras- 
 telii out of the country ? 
 
 Lord LIVERPOOL : I believe, Mr. 
 Powell. 
 
 Lord CARNARVON would not press 
 
C. GAROI.fNT. 
 
 287 
 
 l>i^> mollon ajijaiiHi the fivliiig^s of ihe 
 house, but he would only wiihdraw it 
 in order tw sub-^titute another, naiiu'ly, 
 that her Majesty's counsel should be 
 esked whether they ihou^lit it n>aierial 
 to the defence of her ninje»ty that ilas- 
 telli stiould be exaniiued imuiediately? 
 
 Lord HOLLAND spoke at some 
 length, and with {creat eh)q'ieuce. 
 B^aiust proceeding with tlie cause (ill 
 tlie fact of the existence of a conspiracy 
 to sidjoru witnesses should he estab- 
 lished. 
 
 Lord KRSKINE said, a» his noble 
 friend had ngrevd to suspend his mo- 
 tion, he wished that the ci-uusel for 
 hef majesty should be asked if it was 
 material to the defence \hat Rasteili 
 should now be called in and examined ? 
 
 Eafl GREY, moved, that Mr. Powell 
 should now be called to the bar of the 
 House- 
 
 JOHN ALLAN POWELL then 
 appeared at the bar,- and was examined 
 by Earl Grey . He stated — I was em- 
 pioycd in the Milan Commission; I am. 
 •now engaged in conducting this prose- 
 cution. 1 heard the examination of 
 J<astelli at this house. I recommended 
 \m being sent out to Italy, to assure the 
 friends of the witnesses now in this 
 country, that they were well ; and that 
 the reports in llaly of their mal-treat- 
 inent were exaggerated. I thought it 
 an act of humanity to do so. Kastelli 
 wetit away on ihe Thursday or Friday 
 after the adjournment, and 1 thought he 
 would be back before he could be 
 Afanted. 1 ordered him to return by the 
 3rd of October. 
 
 Witness further stated, that he ex- 
 pected Rastcili to return soon, as throe 
 mess;ige8 had been sent after him ; but 
 he had heard that he Was ^ery 111 of a 
 fever. ~ > . ^ • 
 
 To a question from Lord Alviifilcy, 
 witness said that he had no ifteans of 
 enforcing the attendance of Rastelli, 
 if he refused to return. — It whs agreed 
 t at Lord Erskinc's question to the 
 <iueen'8 /c6unsel should bo put (o-nior- 
 r«w mohiiifg. — Adjourned at j o'Clock. 
 
 SATURDAY, October 14. 
 Lord CARNARVON at the silting of 
 Ihe house this morning, begged to with- 
 draw the motion which tie yesterday 
 ma;le, for the purpose of substituting 
 aimther. Before he .took this step, how- 
 ever, if the house pennittcd him to with- 
 davv hisoMginalmotiun, he begged to 
 
 ask the noble Earl (Liverpool) whethei^ 
 he had, in pursuance oflhe pledge he had 
 marie to the house, given any instruc- 
 tions with regard to the witnesses whot 
 had been summoned to the bar of th© 
 house ? 
 
 Lord LIVERPOOL said, he had gi- 
 ven no general instructions; it was per- 
 fectly understood by the law officers of 
 the crown, that they should not permit 
 the witnesses to withdraw. An appli- 
 cation was made at the Foreign Office 
 for a passport for this man, and it was 
 grantdd. 
 
 Lord CARNARVON begged now to 
 move that Mr. Planta, of the Foreign 
 Office, should be ordered to attend at 
 the bar. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR put 
 the question, and Mr. Planta was or- 
 dered to attend rfCi^Ardingly. 
 
 Lord CARNARVON. •*! now 
 move that Mr Powell be again called 
 to the bar." 
 
 Lord GREY suggested that counsel 
 on both sides should likewise be present, 
 in order that they might put, throfrgh 
 the house such questions as they migh^ 
 think necessary. 
 
 Mr. POWELL called in. 
 The witness, having appeared at the 
 bar, wa» examined by Lord Carnarvon. 
 He deposed as follows: — I have stated 
 that Rasielli was sent to Milan on the 
 Thursday or Friday after the adjourn- 
 ment of the house (the 14th or 15tli of 
 Sept.) I do not know that Rastelli 
 was directed on his wny to take dis- 
 patches to Lord Stewart, at Paris. I 
 calculated that he would arive at Milan 
 in seven or eight days. 1 sent by Ras- 
 telli some papers. Those papers, 1 
 thought, might he made use of upon the 
 opening of this business again, conse- 
 (fuently Rastelli was to have returned 
 previous to the 5rd of October. Ras- 
 telli was dot instructed by nto to go 
 any where, except to Mll<in. 1 l^.ntjvv 
 that, previous to Rasfelli's departure, 
 a person, who had been sent here as a 
 witness, but not exantiued, had been 
 :-ent btick. I recollect only one person 
 so sent back, lie was not one of those 
 who had landed at Dover. Subsequent 
 to the return of that person, no other 
 person, ti> my knowledge, was sent 
 back or permitted to return to Italy. 
 
 Do you know of any olhrr witnesses, 
 beside the one to whom you have al- 
 lutleil, having been sent back ? 
 
 Mr. POWKLL, Am 1 to speak to 
 my own knowledge? You are. — 
 
^288 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 & 
 
 To the best of ray recollection and be- 
 lief there has not. 
 
 Lord LAUDERDALE objected to 
 this course of examination. 
 
 Earl LIVERPOOL said, he had uo 
 hesitation in stating that he had, in con- 
 sultation \Tith the counsel for the bill, 
 given it as his opinion, that all the wit- 
 nesses who had not been examined in 
 support of the bill might be sent back 
 to Italy; and he bad no hesitation in 
 admitting that he ratlier wished they 
 should go (hear). He understood, how- 
 ever, that only one witness had been 
 sent away. 
 
 Earl GREY observed that it was ap- 
 parent that one of the agents for this 
 bill had misconducted himself, and 
 therefore the House had a right to in- 
 quire into his conduct. 
 
 Lord LAUDERDALE considered 
 the question improper. 
 
 Tne LORD-CHANCELLOR said, 
 that the house ought to be extremely 
 delicate iu any questions which they 
 might put to agents. 
 
 After some further desultory conver- 
 sation as to the right of the House to 
 put the question proposed, with a view to 
 put the house in possession of the fact 
 that unexamined witnesses had been 
 sent back who might have given the 
 information for which it was said Ras- 
 telli had been sent to Milan. 
 
 Mr. Powell was again examined. I 
 have heard that two others were sent 
 back. At the time I had sent Rastelli, 
 I had made uo inquiry as to whether 
 any of the witnesses would be permit- 
 ted to go back. 1 have received letters 
 from Colonel Brown, stating that Ras- 
 telli was ill. I have had uo communi- 
 cation from Rastelli himself. I men- 
 tioned at the Foreign Office that Ras- 
 telli was to go as a courier. Antece- 
 dent to this, I was pcquaiuted with the 
 persons of Lord Clauwilliam and Mr. 
 Planta, as agents for this bill. I do 
 not consider that all the witnesses were 
 under my controul. I applied to Ras- 
 telli to go to Milan solely for the pur- 
 pose of qu.etiug the minds of the fa- 
 milies of the witnesses in Cotton-gar- 
 'den. The papers to which I alluded 
 were sent by Rastelli as a courier. I 
 sent those pai)ers to be legalized, and 
 expected that they would be brought 
 back legalized by the 3rd of October. 
 1 had no ex|)ectation that Rastelli was 
 lo wait lor them ; that was to be lelt 
 to the discretion of Colonel Brtxwu. 
 The witness then gave the names of 
 
 some of the witnesses whose families 
 lived at Milan and in its neighbour- 
 ho.xi. I do not recollect that 1 gave 
 any instructions to Rastelli to go to 
 the families iu the neighbourhood of 
 Milan ; but he was to lake, and did 
 take letters from the witnesses in Cot- 
 ton-gardeu to their families. It was 
 by those letters, and Rastelli's personal 
 appearance at Milan, and probably in 
 the neighbourhood, that assurances of 
 the safety of tbe witnesses were to be 
 conveyed, and I concluded Ccdoutl 
 Brown would have directed Rastelli to 
 have given those assurances. I do not 
 know that any messenger, or letter, 
 was sent to the family of Pielro Cu«hi, 
 at 'IVieste. 
 
 The witness was examined at consi- 
 derable length by sever^.l Peers, and 
 his answers were substantially to the 
 effect following : — He had a letter fr(;m 
 Colonel Brown relative to the sending 
 of Rastelli Jo Milan, and had written 
 to Colonel Brown by Rastelli. But he 
 objected to produce those letters, or to 
 disclose any part of their contents, as 
 he was the confidential agent for this 
 Bill. He expected that Rastelli, who 
 left London in his way to Milan ou the 
 I4th of September, would come back 
 here by the 3d of this month. He con- 
 sidered six days and nights a sufficient 
 time for a courier, with ordinary dili- 
 gence, to reach Milan from London, 
 and that he might perform the journey 
 there and back, doing the business on 
 which he was sent, in twelve days and 
 nights. He carried letters to the fa- 
 milies of several of the persons who 
 came to be examined as witnesses now 
 iu Cotlon-garden, to make the minds 
 of those families easy as to the safety 
 of the witnesses, and he was to have per- 
 sonal communication with ihose fami- 
 lies at Milan. He gave directions to 
 Raitelli to be back by the 3rd of Octo- 
 ber, although he did not think he would 
 be wanted as a witness (having already 
 given his testimony at the bar of this 
 house) until the bill should come be- 
 fore the house of Commons. He was 
 not aware that, after the witnesses who 
 were examined at this bar had given 
 their testimony, any such orders given 
 by the house- as that those witnesses 
 should be still kept in readiness to be 
 again produced, if the house should so 
 require, nor that the first Lord of the 
 Trtasnry had pledged himself to that 
 tlfcct. He now recollected the circu\n- 
 stance, and he could oulv sav it did not 
 
G. GAROLINI. 
 
 289 
 
 siJ:^'.2rcsi itself to him at the time Ras- 
 xAh was sent off. The reason he sent 
 Rasielliin preference to any other, wa», 
 because he thought him the best person 
 to send, as he appeared to be well ac- 
 qnainied with the families of the other 
 wiinesses. He could not positively say 
 whether any one of the other witnesses 
 examined here was resident at Milau. 
 He could not say from his own per- 
 sonal knowledge that they were. He 
 did noi recollect where the witnesses, 
 on their examinauon, ha'l slated them- 
 selves to be resident. He considered 
 the witnesses in Cotton-garden to be 
 under the tlirection and conirol of the 
 Attorney-General. There are several 
 other persons residing in the same place 
 with them ; but he does not know whe- 
 ther any of those j)ersons have con- 
 trol over the witnesses or not. He 
 says he has given directions for per- 
 sons to be admitted to communicate 
 with those witnesses ; but he has also 
 given directions that strangers should 
 be excluded from intercourse with 
 them. He does not recollect whether 
 he made any previous communication 
 to Rastelli (hat he was to be sent : but 
 lie did not make any secret of it. He 
 does n«t recollect whether he had any 
 communication with any other agent 
 relative lo the sending of Rastelli, pre- 
 vious to his mission. He had no au- 
 thority from any one for sending Ras- 
 telli in particular out of the country. 
 
 The witness was ordered to withdraw, 
 but he was recalled at the request of 
 Mr. Brougham, who wished to put to 
 bim some ques4;ious. 
 
 The witness having come back to 
 the bar, Mr. Brougham asked the wit- 
 ness who was his client, or employer, 
 ill this cause ? 
 
 Ihe LORD CHANCELLOR ob- 
 jected to the que&tiou.. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.— My Lords, it is 
 a very imporiam question, and 1 bave 
 no object in putting ii, except for the 
 purposes of Strict justice, [l is most 
 important for us to put this question to 
 this witness, as he in the very iirst wil- 
 uess that has appeared at this bar, in 
 the course of the proceedings, who 
 could give us any information upon 
 this point. Is it not of great import- 
 ance to ask of this witness, who is the 
 solicitor in this cause, who his client 
 is, when we are acting as the counsel 
 for a defendant open and avowed ? If 
 I knew who the person was, non, constat 
 that I could not bring forwAvd docu- 
 
 37 
 
 menf;, speeches, and communications 
 without number against him, and high- 
 ly important to the cause of my client. 
 Bnt up to this moment I have never 
 been able to trace •* the local habi- 
 tation — the name" of the unknown be- 
 iug who is the plaintitf in this proceetl- 
 ing. I know not but it may vanish 
 into thin air. I know not under what 
 shape it exists ; 
 
 ** If shape it might be called, that 
 shape had none, 
 
 " Disunguishable in member, joint> 
 or limi). 
 
 ** Or substance might be called that 
 shadow seemed ; 
 
 ** For each seemed either. Black it 
 stood as night, 
 
 *' Fierce as the furies, terrible as 
 hell, 
 
 f ' And shook a dreadful dart : what 
 seem'd his head 
 
 ** The likeness of a kingly crown 
 had on." 
 
 If I could see it I might interrogate 
 it, and bring out of its m<)jnth, if it has 
 a mouth, who and what it is, and whe- 
 ther it he a man ? But up to this mo- 
 ment, we do not know who the party 
 is ; it may, be some shapeless form 
 without a kead — or it may be a head 
 with the semblance of a body. But 
 highly and vitally important as it is 
 for my client t-o know who is her prin- 
 cipal accuser, and highly indispensable 
 as it is for me, who am her advocate, 
 to put such questions to the witnesses 
 as I am legally entitled to ask, and 
 upon yi'hich 1 would have a right to 
 insist in any of the justiciary courts 
 below, I am met at every step of my 
 progress by *' You can't ask this ques- 
 tion — you must not put that ques- 
 tion ;" but, uiy lords, how can 1 dis- 
 charge my duty to my illustrious client, 
 if I am to be debarred from putting 
 questions to the witness iudispensible 
 for her defence ; and which as an ad- 
 vocate in any of the courts below, 1 
 should have an undoubted right to 
 put. 
 
 'ihe LORD CHANCELLOR was 
 sorry to interrupt the counsel in the 
 course of the proceedings. But he ap- 
 prehended it was not proper for the 
 defendant's counsel ti^^ut this questioa 
 to the solicitor in support of the bill, 
 and c:^lled now for another purpose. 
 If the learned counsel wished to make 
 this person his witness in chief, let 
 him call him for that purpose, and he 
 might put th9 qujestioB. 
 
2m 
 
 DEFENCE OP THE QUEEN. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM tl.cn asked the 
 witness — How many of the witnesses 
 for tlie bill who had come over had 
 been sent away before Rastelli was 
 sent, on the I4th of Septenjber ? 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR ob- 
 jected to this question, as not con- 
 nected with the subject for which the 
 witness was called. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM then asked the 
 -witness, if he would swear that no 
 other person had }?oue as a courier to 
 Italy, on the business of the Milan 
 Commission, at the time that Rastelli 
 was sent back. 
 
 Witness answered, he considered 
 the Milan Commission to have ceased 
 in March, 1819, and he did not consi- 
 der himself as acting vuider the Milan 
 Commission. 
 
 I knew Krous had returned to the 
 Continent after the Dover riots, and 
 that others might have gone over also 
 as couriers ; but the only letters that 
 were conveyed by such couriers we e 
 from the witnesses to their families, 
 which we sent to the care of Co!ont*l 
 Brown, to be by him delivered. This 
 was necessary, because I had heard 
 from the Colonel that the families of 
 the (Witnesses were very <asy alxiut 
 them, in consequence of false reports 
 - that had gone over, calculated to ex- 
 oite their apprehension. 
 
 Mr. Brou;;ham was proceeding to 
 kiterrogate the witness, a«. to whether 
 Colonel Brown had/ wished Rastelli 
 in particular to be sent over, but 
 
 The LORD CHANCIXLOR de- 
 cided that no part of Colonel l?rown's 
 confidential correspondence with the 
 witness ought to be disclosed in e\ i- 
 deuce. 
 
 The witness in his further examina- 
 tion said, J did not recollect that Ras- 
 telli had said he did not know any of 
 the witnesses, except by coming o >er 
 with some of them. As agent 1 have 
 ifead the numbers, but 1 < id not parti- 
 cularly bear iu minfl what Rastelli 
 deposvd. 
 
 The part of Rastelli's evidence re- 
 ferred to was here read. It merely 
 ^fitated that he .^Uaitelli) knew noiliiug 
 of the witness/ except by the accident 
 of comiijg over with some of them. 
 
 Mr. Powell, when further interro- 
 gated, said, I cannot tell how many 
 of the witnesses are from the north of 
 Italy, nor about how many, nor give 
 any conjecture even within a dozen. 
 East4|i I JiU«W was ia Holland after 
 
 I the Dover riots; but I 'Jo not know 
 1 that he at that time went to Milan, or 
 j any where else. I gave him no in- 
 I struct ious so to do. The lat.t time when 
 I lie went away, he certainly had in- 
 j structions to remove the appieheusions 
 j of the witnesses who are abroad, and 
 [ the families who are heie, and to con- 
 vince them of their safely and proper 
 treatment in iliis country. I had no 
 motive upon eartli to se«d Rastelli 
 away with a view to keep him from 
 this country; nor, if I thou^^lit this 
 delay would have arisen, should I have 
 sent him for an\ consideration, as I 
 look upon his testimtiUy to be njost 
 material, should this bill go to the 
 House of Ccnnmons. 
 
 Re-exaniined b> the ATTORNEV- 
 GE'NERAL. — I was present when Mr. 
 Broughaui said he should call for 
 the cross^-c'xamination of no other wit- 
 uess than Majocchi, and I had not the 
 slightest reason to believe he intended 
 to call back Rastelli, or else, nioi^t cer- 
 tainly, I siiould not have sent him oat 
 of the way. 
 
 Examined by the Earl ot LAUDER- 
 DALE. — Rastelli was one of the wit- 
 nesses present at the riots at Dover; 
 but I cannot say, whether he was the 
 only one of the witnesses there who 
 was a courier, as I really don't kuuw 
 who were there. 
 
 Mr. Powell was then directed to 
 withdraw. 
 
 The Earl of LAUDERDALE wished 
 Mr. Powell's evidence, which he con- 
 sidered most material, and very pro- 
 perly called for, to be published I y the 
 order of the house in a separate 
 form, from the other evidence in the 
 case. 
 
 Earl GREY concurred in the pro- 
 priety of this suggestion, thinking also 
 the evidence most material. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE agreed that it ought 
 to be published, though he did not. 
 know why the pnblicaiion should be ia 
 any way distinguished from any other 
 part of the minutes of evidence in this 
 case. 
 
 The Earl qf LAUDERDALE wished 
 the distinction to be made, because be 
 considered ihe exaniinalion of Mr. 
 Powell refcrret'to a i-ariicular matter 
 from thi.t relating to the bdl before 
 iheir lordshiris. 
 
 Lord RI:DESDALE concurred in 
 the propriety of the evidence of Mr. 
 Powell being kept srj^arate. 
 
 The Enrl of DONOUGHMORE 
 strongly concurred ia the necessity oX 
 
p. POHI. 
 
 291 
 
 preserving the minutes of Mr. Pv>well'> 
 evidence. 
 
 The Earl of CARNARVON said, 
 tliat with resi>ect to the examination 
 of Mr. Powell, their lordships had 
 doue riijht to c<)nimeiice it. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR thought 
 it would be convenient to have Mr. 
 Powell's evidence jinnted distinctly. 
 If done, as he undcrsiood from the 
 clerk it raiffht, in the printed form, be 
 in course of delivery to their lordships 
 early oh Monday mornin«j. 
 
 Mr. Powtll's evidence was then or- 
 dered to be printed in a separate form. 
 
 Joseph Planla, Esq. was then called 
 to the bar, and examined by the Earl 
 of ( ARNARVON.—His answers were 
 — I am Under Secretary of Slate to 
 Lord Castlerea^h ; and remember about 
 the 14th of September Mr. Powell 
 applying to nie for a passport for a 
 courier named Rastelli. I think he 
 told me, tliat this witness was to re- 
 move some apprehensions from the 
 families of the Italian witnesses here ; 
 But I don't particularly recollect what 
 passed. No dispatches were sent by 
 Ra-telli fiom the Foreign Office. I 
 gave the pvssport according to the 
 usual official forms — it was signed by- 
 Lord Cas'.lerea<;h ; but I beg to ex- 
 plain, that his lordshi{)'s name is 
 always ready written t() the passjiorts 
 lying for use in the office. I did not 
 apply to Lord Casilereagh on this oc- 
 casion, nor did I receive instructions 
 from him on the subject. I knew Ras- 
 telli was at witness, from the ordinary 
 iiewhpaper medium, but I did not 
 dwell upon that recollectiDU, nor did I 
 know that this house had ordered all 
 the witnesses to be kept in this coun- 
 try. Tnere have been pa-.sports granted 
 to cotuiers once, but whether to recall 
 Rastelli or not, I cannot say. 
 
 In answei- to a question from the 
 Earl of DARLINGTON.—No other 
 pas-port for a courier was applied for 
 at the time Raslelli's was. 
 
 in ansiver to questions from Mr. 
 BROUGHAM — '* S..metliiiig was, I 
 believe, said, by Mi". Powell respect- 
 ing Rastelli being a proper person 
 to send Jo inform ihe families of the 
 witnesses abroad respecting their state 
 liere ; but 1 really cantiot recollet the 
 particulars ; b ing merely occupied at 
 tlie time in the discharge of my official 
 duties." 
 
 The witness Hemg desired to with- 
 draw, Lord CARNARVON moved. 
 
 that the Counsel be called in and ixi- 
 formed of the result of Mr. Powell's 
 examination, and asked, whether, 
 under the circumstances, they werie 
 now prepared to proc ed with any other 
 part of her najestj's case. 
 
 After some conversation, the motion 
 in that shape was withdrawn, and the 
 counsel were simply called in and de- 
 sired to go on. 
 
 Mr. B ROUGH AM applied for a 
 few minutes' adjournment to consult 
 with his colleagues as to the course 
 proper for them to pursue. The house 
 accordingly adjourned untiltuoo'clock, 
 when Mr. Brougham announced that 
 he intended to resume the head of evi- 
 dence upon which the house was en- 
 gaged yesterday, and accordingly called 
 the 
 
 TWENTY-FIRST WITNESS. 
 PHILLIPPO POM I, ^examined by 
 Dr. LUSHINGTON.— I am a carpen- 
 ter by trade, and come from the pa-> 
 rish of Barona, in Italy, and have 
 worked in the queen's house there. I 
 know Guiseppi Rastelli, who was a 
 groom in the queen's service. 1 know 
 also madame De Mont. 1 n the course 
 of last year Rastelli came to the 
 Barona, where I was, and was em- 
 ployed in making plans of the house, 
 he asked me whether I ever received 
 presents from the persons who visited 
 the house. I said no, and he after- 
 wards made me a present of 40 francs. 
 He offered me moitey on another day 
 to come here as a witness. He told me 
 that if I had to say any thing against 
 her royal highness, I should receive ^ 
 great present. I sail I had nothing to 
 say against her majesty, and that i 
 knew nothing but good of her. He 
 said to me, ** Pommi, if you like you 
 may m ike yourself a man." 1 asked 
 him what he meSnt. He answered, 
 ** You, who have always lived in this 
 house, night and day, may have some- 
 thing to depose against her royal high- 
 ness." I said I had nothing to depose 
 against her royal highness, who had 
 always done a great deal of good. 
 De iViont was not present at this time. 
 Did Rastelli, at the time he offered 
 money to you, mention her name ?— 
 This question was objected to. 
 I At the time of the second conversa- 
 tion, when the offer was made, he took 
 me to an inn. He told me if 1 had 
 any thing to depose— any thing agftifldt 
 
292 
 
 DEtTiNCE OF THE QUEEN, 
 
 her royal higbncss, now is the time, I 
 would become a great man and receive 
 e great present. He mentioned the 
 name of De Mont on tliat occasion. T 
 asked him wiiether De Mout was still 
 in tl»e service of her royal higliness, 
 and he told me that she was, and then 
 I found that she was here. He also 
 told me that she had made a gre t 
 sum. He told me at that time, that 
 if I would depose something against 
 her royal highness, I should have a 
 great present. 1 answered that « had 
 been night and day in that house for a 
 long time, ;;nd 1 had never seen any 
 thjng improper. He said that it was a 
 bad house, or a house for bad women, 
 and so forth, and 1 answered that this 
 ■was a real falsehood, for I had seen 
 nothing of this, and it ended so. Ras- 
 telli used the expression respecting 
 De Mont when h^ was goipg about 
 making recruits. I know a person of 
 ^the name of Kigantini. He sells salt 
 >and tobacco, &c. about a gunshot 
 out of Milan. He is a companion of 
 Rastelli's. 
 
 Did Kigantini ever make any offer 
 to witness respecting giving evidence 
 against her royal highness ? 
 
 The ATTOKNEY-GENERAL ob- 
 jected to this question — what, he 
 would ask, had a couvtrsation with 
 Bigami i to do with the conduct of 
 Rastelli ? 
 
 Dr. LUSHINGTON said, he ^ould 
 shew that it was perfectly relevant to 
 to the ca e before the house. 1 he 
 learned counsel t en adverted to the 
 evidence of Uastelli, in which he 
 Stated that he had been taken before 
 the members of the Milan Commission 
 by this very Kigantini. He was an 
 agent of the Commission, and it was 
 fit the bouse should be apprised of the 
 character and conduct of all th per- | 
 sons conceniea in this nelarious pro- | 
 ceeding. It was difficult to find out \ 
 who or what the party agitatln^g this 
 question was ; but, he considered it as | 
 a sort of joint-stock concern, in which j 
 both that house and the government ! 
 were engaged. It was expe ien , how- ; 
 ever, uiider all views of the case, that ' 
 the practices of the subordinate agetits | 
 should be developed. In this view he 
 thought the quesdon proper. , 
 
 Mr. DENxMAN regarded the whole : 
 of this case as a foul anil malignant 
 conspiracy against a defmceiess wo- | 
 man j and he submitted, that they j 
 had a right to drag to public view uli j 
 
 ramifications by which it had been 
 supported. It was with this intention 
 they were calling witnesses to prove 
 the conduct of the agents of the Milan 
 Commission, in endear ouring to suborn 
 testimony, and to corrupt honest indi- 
 viduals to the commission <f gross and 
 wilful perjury. 
 
 I'he ATTORNEy-GENERAL again 
 complained that his learned friends 
 had indulged in unwarrantable invec- 
 tive when the subject at issue was the 
 decision of a simple point of evidence. 
 He was going on to contend, that the 
 question proposed was inadmissible, 
 when 
 
 '] hf LORD CHANCELLOR inter- 
 posed, and gave it as his opinion, that 
 the attempt of putting the question ob- 
 jected to, was one of the most extra- 
 vagant propo3itioj)s he had ever heard. 
 
 Mr. DEN MAN then declared they 
 had no further questions to put. 
 
 Mr, Denmau, before the house ad- 
 journed, asked whether iiigantini waa 
 in this country. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said 
 that his learned friend had no right to 
 ask what witnesses they might think 
 it necessary to ca'l to rebut the testi- 
 mony which those called by him had 
 given. 
 
 Mr. DENMAN said Rigantini eould 
 not be called to contradict the last 
 witne-is, as he had been stopped froa\ 
 saying a word about him. 
 
 The house adjourned shortly before 
 four o'clock. 
 
 MONDAY, October 16. 
 
 Sir JOHN BERESFOPxD was called 
 to the bar and sworn : he was exa- 
 mined by Earl G' E^ . 
 
 I am a rear admiral in his majesty's 
 service. I c mmauded his majesty's 
 ship the Poictiers. 1 remember a per- 
 son of tnc name of William Carrington 
 on board that ship. He blled the situ- 
 ation of quarter-master on board the 
 Poi. tiers, and was rated as such. At 
 the request of Sir v\ illiam Cell, 1 pro- 
 cured the discharge of the man, by 
 writing to the acting captam (Jones), 
 and requesting that he would rate 
 him as my » lerk. He was in conse- 
 quence rated as a midshipman, and 
 discharged as a midshipman. It was' 
 at Sir William Gell's repeated requeat 
 that he was discharged. I gave him 
 a certificate expressive of my opinion 
 
p. PO.MI. 
 
 293 
 
 •f his srood conduct. Never was a man 
 w4)o behaved better while he was in the 
 ship, If there was any thine: irregular 
 in his discharge it was my fault, and 
 not the fault of the actinj; captain. 
 
 Exaniined by Lord MklAILLE.— 
 Carriugton never *^as rated as a mid- 
 shipman. I do not recollect having 
 had any conversation with him relative 
 to his being rated as a midshipman. 
 After Sir Win. Gell asked me for his 
 discharge, 1 called Carringt(»n, and I 
 expressed a hope that he did not mean 
 to leave the service ; and he said he 
 was anxious to do so as he did not like 
 the service. 
 
 Lord CALTIIORPE, in allusion to 
 the uoticfof tlie learned ccnnisel touch- 
 ing the identity of the prosecutor in 
 this case, observed, that it appeared 
 to him. that this beinsr a proceeding 
 originating in state policy, the House 
 of Lords were the prosecutors. No 
 party had so little right to complain ot 
 any want of in(orrnati n on this point 
 as the queen's rounsel. 
 
 Lord LIVKIiFOOL said he had no 
 difficulty in stating how this matter 
 s ood. There was no mystery in the 
 proceedings. His lordship in the first 
 iustance brought down papers by his 
 majesty's conmiand. Those papers 
 were re'erred to a secret committee, 
 who reported upon them, and then his 
 lordship, on his own responsibility, 
 hrooght in the present bill. 'I'here was, 
 therefore, no mystery in the proceeding. 
 His majesty's Attorney-General was 
 then ordered by the house to attend at 
 the bar and examine witnesses in sup- 
 port of the bill. Ibis was in strict 
 conformiiy with the usages of parlia- 
 ment, and he took upon himself, as 
 {)rime nnnister, the responsibility of 
 >ringing in the bill, upon a firm con- 
 viction that its preamble would be 
 proved. It was for the house to de- 
 termine upon the evidence adduced 
 whether the preamble was proved. 
 
 Lord LANSDOVVN urged, tiiat as 
 there was one party acknowledged at 
 the bar, ih real prosecutor of the bill 
 ought to be iilentilied, inord./r that the 
 defendant might have the advantage of 
 sifting to ti e bottom the conspiracy to 
 ■which allusion had been made ; and 
 discovering the truth and justice of the 
 case, lie should certainly call for the 
 judgment of the house upon the ques- 
 tion now raised. 
 
 Tbe LORD CHANCELLOR thought 
 that, in point of order, the exitttiuation 
 
 of the witness now at the bar, ought 
 to be concluded before any motion upoa 
 the subject alluded to was brought be- 
 fore the house. The noble Secretary 
 of State having brought in the bill, 
 he did so upon liis own responsibility, 
 and was answerable for the conse- 
 quences, like all other ministers. 
 
 Earl GREY complained strongly of 
 the absence of an avowal of a principal 
 in this business. Without this know- 
 ledge how was the conduct of agents to 
 be thoroughly investigated, for the pur- 
 pose of tracing whether any suljorna- 
 tion of ppijury had, in fact, been com- 
 mitted t He should, when the cross- 
 examination of witnesses was over, 
 submit a proposition to the house oa 
 the subject. 
 
 The Earl of CARNARVON con- 
 demned, in pointed terms, the manner 
 ih which this business had b en con-r 
 ducted, witli respect, for instance, to 
 the Carlsrhue evidence, which rested 
 on the testimony of one witness — a 
 witness, too, that had been examined, 
 not by the Milan Commission, but by 
 the Hanoverian minister, and after- 
 wards taken to Hanover. Was that 
 minister an authorised agent, and who 
 was responsible for his acts ? Did mi- 
 nisters adopt the conduct of the Hano- 
 verian minister? — or who was to be 
 responsible for the acts of the minister 
 of a little German despot: Perhaps, 
 not only the ministers employed in this 
 business were those of the king of 
 Great Britain, but also of the king of 
 Hanover, and even of the dwe of 
 Cornwall. If the real constitutional 
 advisers of his majesty were responsible 
 for all that had been done, he believed 
 they would have to answer for most 
 disgraceful means, which compromised 
 the character of the country Every 
 princi{)lc of justice, every feeling of 
 truth and coumion sense, were at va- 
 riance with what had been done in this 
 miserable case. 
 
 Lord MELVILLE here moved, that 
 the proper officer should attend from 
 the Admiralty, with copies from the 
 ship's books of the Poctiers, &c. of the 
 situ;nion on board and services of VViu., 
 Carrington.— Ordered. 
 
 The witness PhillippoPomi, whowas 
 examined on Saturday, was now re- 
 called, and cross-examined by the At- 
 torney-General. He deposed as fol- 
 lows: 
 
 1 resided at the Bai;-ona, and it is 
 
294 
 
 DEFENCE OP THE QtJEETf. 
 
 BOW called the Villa Bergami, since it ! 
 ■was ])urclia8ed by Berj^ami. He bought ' 
 it ill \U\6j but it has only lately had 
 liis name. 1 worked there since as a 
 carpenter, for Borj^ami, as before. I 
 did not see him since some time in An- 
 g-ustlast. I left the Baronaon the 20th 
 Scptetnber ; but 1 cannot positively re- 
 member whether it was at the end of 
 August or beginning of September 1 
 last saw Bergami. 1 did not see him 
 >vheu I set oiTt. I canift voluntarily, 
 Viaviiig heard that the advocate Codatzi 
 was reeeiv ng depositions in favour of 
 the lady who served me and the whole 
 of the people at the Barona. Bergami 
 had left the \'illa before witness left it ; 
 feut when and to go where, precisely 
 1 cannot say. [ was anxious to come 
 and say what I know of a lady who had 
 done so much good, and 1 would rea- 
 dily go one luuidred miles for that pur- 
 pose. 1 here was no ap; iicalion made 
 to me t<» coine, I again say I came vo- 
 lt ntarily. I did ;:o to the advocate at 
 Milan I ih'nx^i on the 24th August — 
 Bergami was not then at the Villa, 
 rior did I see him at Milan. J was ex- 
 amined by Codatzi ; then nobo y else 
 ?\'as present at the time. Codatzi said 
 1 ou2;bt to c.ime over, and 1 came ac- 
 cordingly. I saw nobody else but Co- 
 datzi about my evidence. I know there 
 was an Knglishm.mor a foreigner with 
 Codatzi when he came to the villa, but 
 who he was I dont know. He only 
 came to see the villa. He was an Eng- 
 lialuuan, I believe ; 1 did not speak to 
 j^im. 1 know Vassali, and 1 saw him 
 before 1 set ont; it was in August, after 
 1 saw the advocate. 1 came to Kng- 
 fcind in company with my late head 
 master, and three other persons. I 
 saw Vassali at Milan, near his house, 
 when he was getting into his carriage. 
 1 did not call upon nim. 1 have seen 
 him many times. In iHl'rf I saw him- 
 1 have seen him many times in Lon- 
 elon^ \ did no^ bear my own expenses 
 if\ coming ov^^r ; they we e l>rrne by 
 tny bead master who bore them (or all. 
 (iarolini was my heail mas er. For 
 doming here as a witness I have to say 
 that when I went to thi- advoi-ale, I told 
 hitn if 1 was to go 1()() miles 1 would 
 go wiihi'Ut any tiling, or if it was an 
 affair of littiv time, 1 sai.l, provided 
 ibey would provide sosnethiug for my 
 lisvnily, 1 would go for her royal high- 
 ness to the end of the world. 1 have 
 no expectations in regard to myself, 
 and i tuid iheni so, if they would give 
 
 a llvre a day to my wife, and half a 
 livre to each of my children, per d'y. 
 This is all the assistance my family is 
 to receive. Jf they give any thing to 
 myself I shall take it. 1 can swear 
 that J don't expect nny thing because 1 
 made no agreement, but as son\e peo- 
 ple have some hopes of remuneration, 
 1 have no expectation ; but for the 
 benefit the princess has done rae, 1 
 would go to the end of the world. The 
 name of tlte person who came with 
 Rastelli to me at the Villa Barona, is- 
 Antonio G^rolini. He is an architect, 
 like his father, but more clever. ii^~ 
 rolini took a plan of the Imuse on that 
 occasion — a drawing or design. After 
 they made apian Gerolini, he, and Ras- 
 telli began to leap for joy, and congratu- 
 late each other. The otners weutaway* 
 I remember some dancing at the Ba- 
 rona when the PiinceaS and Bergami 
 were there. The extent of the Villa 
 Bt-rgami and the groi.«;i&, I dont.ktjow 
 exactly, but it is an estate of about 
 lOOO perlitce. I don't know ho^ many 
 acres the gronnds are in ex4ent. The 
 persons who used to be at the balls at | 
 the Barona were all people well brought 
 up from father and mother ; and wheu 
 tlie young people >Nerey the fathers 
 were always present.. They were all 
 gentleman and ladies in their condition 
 in life ; gentlefolks — both male and fe- 
 male. I know Maria Callctti ;, perhaps 
 she may have gone there. I don't know 
 what she is precisely. I doti'i kuovr, 
 whether she keeps the public house 
 called the St. Christopher j the name 
 of the woman who keeps that hcaise 
 is Rosiiia. She has kept that house* 
 She was at the balls ; but she is a res- 
 pectable woman. She was brought by 
 '.he other giil'. Tiiis woman Rosina 
 only came once t • the balls ; she is one 
 of the gentlefolks, the mother of an- 
 other gnl who u^ed to g>) there j she 
 was mistress of tne inn. There is an- 
 notber inn. Tne innkeeper is there ; 
 his name is Griovauni Angeh>, n<nv the 
 .sou, but his father was called Antonio. 
 His wife and sister went there but only 
 once ; the sister v*as an only dan^hter. 
 I do na' know Biiuista, a blacksmith^ 
 at the Barona ;-he i.> Atonio Maui:i j 
 his daughter did not go to the balls, 
 for hfe has no daugUtt-r ; but be has 
 three sons, and 1 never saw any of 
 them there. I have made all the doors 
 at the Barona. I worked after at the 
 house ot the tenant. 1 do not remem- 
 ber on goin^ up stairs any thing par- 
 
P, POML 
 
 295 
 
 ^ulor; I WPMt up 100 times : «tice I 
 '«r€ut up to meutl a chest of <liawers, 
 wheu I saw the Prince>s in her «\vu 
 room. I ha\e seen her in the hall and 
 otli€r places. lier^ami wa!^ not then 
 wiih her. I wiil swear 1 did not see 
 f>€r and Bersjanii then together in the 
 bed-room, I can swear before God 
 f.)r this, \ never, never saw her in ihe 
 ro 'HI with him, I conld not tell snch 
 a thin;,' when 1 never saw it. I have 
 t »!d you I Vn »w nothing of thi« affair. 
 I can swear even hefore God that 1 
 V»» ever saw Beriiami and llie Princess 
 T^i her own room. I saw nothing of 
 this business before. It was not my way 
 to go up stairs ; I had men under me to 
 work, but I went up to mend the chest 
 «f drawers, and theM it was that I saw 
 the princess in her own roonai. I never 
 saw them together in her own room. 
 flow naaiiy limes am 1 to swear to this. 
 I nevec sjiid 1 saw them so, because I 
 never €aw them. J have seen the wife 
 of Ke«-fi;ami at the Harona, before 1 
 set out for En^and. I did not see little 
 Vjctorine, because she was at school, 
 but at what place I do not know. 
 Many gentlefolks were at the balls; 
 the names of all I do not recollect: 
 there was Maria Donnarixiaand others, 
 \\hom if I had now hefore my eyes I 
 could mention. Maria was weJJ biought 
 up, she is the flower of women. Slie is 
 Ant«)nio's daughter who keeps the inn. 
 
 Examined by Lord GllEV.— I wish 
 to ask him if any person asked witness 
 to give evidence against the queen ; 
 and if so, whom ? — No. 
 
 Did no person speak to him on the 
 subject of giving- evidence against the 
 queen ? — There is Uastelli, as I men- 
 tioned the other day. 
 
 Any other person ? Another person 
 of the name of Riganti, who, when 1 
 went to bis shop lo buy some snuH*. — 
 
 The ATTOKNKYGENEftAL ob- 
 jected to the witness proceeding with 
 this answer* 
 
 Lord GREY wished the rest of the 
 converJation to be detailed. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, 
 he only now took the same objection 
 that had been taken on another point, 
 but quite analogous to this, by her 
 majesty's counsel. What Riganti said 
 on that occasion could not be evidence, 
 and would not appear oa their lord- 
 ships' minutes. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR^— Mr. 
 Solicitor, do you wish to be beard? 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GEWEBAL was 
 
 of opinion, that whatever conversation 
 passed between the witness and a stran- 
 ger, could not be given here. Person- 
 ally, he had no objection to the answer ; 
 but, as officially before their lordships, 
 he was hound to take it. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL con- 
 tended, that according to all the ordi- 
 nary rules of evidence, this answer was 
 inadmissible. Such conversation could 
 not be considered as evidence. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR wished 
 to know the grounds of the objectioru 
 atid also to call on her Majesty's coun- 
 sel to support the question. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.— The answer in 
 page 410, referred to Riganli, and i« 
 the present stag-e he thougiit this was 
 enough to authorize their persisting 
 in the question. Riganti went to Ras- 
 telli, and asked him lo go before the 
 Italian advocate and before the com- 
 mission. He did so, and after that 
 went before the Milan Commission, vvh» 
 examined them. In fact, he was an 
 agent, and an active agent. It was ne- 
 cessary to open the door to such evi- 
 dence as this. What, if he could prove 
 mai^y persons were promised rewards 
 if they swore against the princess — ' 
 even ttiat they saw Bergami put his 
 hand up the princess's petticoats — wliat, 
 if he [vroved this and more — what, if 
 he ^ould connect these slanders with 
 the Milan Commission ? What! would 
 their lordships preclude evidence to 
 that ? Would any man hesitate to say, 
 his mind wotild not be decided against 
 the bill if a system of bribery to cor- 
 rupt evidence were proved ? It now 
 appeared his majesty's government 
 were to be his antagonists ? and would 
 any one say Lords lliverpool and Har- 
 rowhy, who were now his antagonists, 
 would not he influenced, if he could 
 prove those feilows, employed by their 
 ag-euts, went about oflferiog other 
 people money for false and filthy 
 swearing. Rastelli did so; so did Ri- 
 ganti; and he was sure it would be 
 seen a conspiracy was proved against 
 the queen, and by parties at the other 
 side. If different people combined ia 
 a conspiracy, though he could not bring 
 it home to noble lords opposed against 
 him, still, if he proved the one-half of 
 what he could prove, conspiracy ex- 
 isted to a frightful and alarming extent. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR said, 
 that his opinion remained unchanged. 
 The evidence offered could not, con- 
 sistently with the rules of law, at prae- 
 
1296 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 tiscd in the courts below, be put. In 
 JHStice to him, he hoped the question 
 would be put to the judges. 
 
 Earl GREY agreed, that, according 
 to the practice in the courts below, the 
 question could not be put ; but he 
 thought a case now existed which en- 
 titled them to depart from these rulrs. 
 
 After some observations from Earl 
 Liverpool, Lord Erskine, and Lord 
 Redesdale, the question was negatived 
 i\itl>out a division. 
 
 The witness was then recalled, and, 
 an answer to a question from one of 
 the peer?, said, ilastelli had told hiin 
 that J)e-Mont was to receive a reward 
 for giving evidence against the queen. 
 
 TWENTV-SIX ON D WITNESS. 
 
 POMPELLIO POMAII svsorn, and 
 exiHuined by Mr. Wilde. I was rierk 
 to the pr6f<*ssional agent of li. r ma- 
 jesty at Milan 1 was taken to the 
 house of Vijinacarli.. I had a convt^r- 
 ijation with him. The niomeiit he saw 
 ine he knew mo, and (old me to bring 
 the papers of her ro^al hij^^huess to 
 him. 
 
 Did he offer you any inducement to 
 bring these papers ? 
 ^ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL ob- 
 jected to this question. 
 
 Mr. WILDE supported the question 
 as perfectly admiissible. Vilmacarti had, 
 if uo other person had, been distinctly 
 proved to be an agent in this abomina- 
 ble conspiracy. What he proposed by 
 this witness to ])rove was, that Vilma- 
 carti and Colonel lirown, or the former 
 ■with the sanction of the latter, had 
 offered to the witness a valuable con- 
 sideration to purloin from the profes- 
 sional law agent of the Princess of 
 Wales, the papers connected with her 
 defence. He submitted, with cijnfi-- 
 deuce, that the queen could not be shut 
 out from showing: this fact, as well a, j 
 other facts exhibiting the atrocious j 
 conduct of these agents in their true ! 
 colours. If such oS'ers were proved ! 
 in the courts below, an^' prosecution \ 
 would be instantly scouted. 
 
 Mr. BRGUGFIAM followed on the 
 same side, and submitted, that unless 1 
 he was allowed to shew the flagitious j 
 manner in which this conspiracy had 
 been got up, it was in vain for him to 
 attempt t-o defend his illustrious client. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL was 
 keard in reply, and at hulf-past four 
 tbe house %djuuraed» 
 
 TUESDAY, October 17, 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR, advert- 
 ing to the objection which had been 
 taken yesterday to the examin^^on of 
 witnesses as to the conduct of Vilma- 
 carti, moved, that the following ques- 
 tion should be submitted to the judges. 
 If; i" the trial of a civil action or a 
 criminal indictment, evidencw had been 
 given on the cross-examination of the 
 witnesses examined in chief for the 
 plainiiiT in the civil action, or in sup- 
 port of the charges of the indictment, 
 from which it was to be inferred that 
 A. B had been employed to collect 
 witnesses for the plain titf or the pro- 
 secution ; and if the defendant, in a 
 civil action, or under iudictnicnt, of- 
 fered proof that A. B. had gone about 
 to induce CD. to give corrupt testi. 
 mony in support of the civil action or 
 criminal charge.i — no witness called as 
 a witness in chief for the indictment, 
 or civil action, having, under cross- 
 examination given any proof of A. B's 
 corrupt ageney — would the practice of 
 tlie courts below allow C. D. a witnes^i 
 called for the defence, to give false 
 testimony in support of the civil suit 
 or the criminal charges, there being 
 no proof that A. B. iiad been autho- 
 rised by his principal to make oilers ? 
 
 EdTi GIIEV", bsiore liieu- ioidships 
 came to a decision ou this question, 
 wished to say a few words. It the no- 
 ble and learned lord wished to propose " 
 the question lo the learned judges 
 merely for his ov>n saiiafaction, he 
 should ou that ground not object, to it. 
 But he must declare he was of oniniou, 
 that, even if the judges did decide that, 
 according to the rules of evidence in the 
 courts below, the examinatio!) pro{H)sed 
 bythe queen's counsel couid i»ot be al- 
 lowed, their lordshipswere not bound 
 to act on that decision. On the con- 
 trary, he wonld contend that, in con- 
 sequence of the knowledge of acts 
 which had come to them from the bar, 
 iliey were bound to inquire into the 
 truth of the allegations. He was how- 
 ever, not much disposed to oppose the 
 [•ropositioa of the uohle and learned 
 lord, because, whatever might be the 
 answer given by the learned judges, he 
 slu)uld propoib' to their lordships to 
 proceed in the course of inquiry which 
 was now suspended. The present poi4it 
 of inquiry was neither more nor less 
 than a continuation of (he case of Ras- 
 telli j^iuto that case iheir lordships had 
 
p. POMATI. 
 
 297 
 
 consftntecl to inquire 5 but the evidence 
 in that case was improperly admitted, 
 If the rule was to be, that, unless agency 
 could be proved, they were not to re- 
 ceive evidence of corruption. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL wished 
 to saj a few words in consequence of 
 what had fallen from the noble lord 
 opposite. In the first place, as to the 
 objection to confining the qtiestion to 
 l)e proposed to the judg:es to the prac- 
 tice of the courts in civil actions, he 
 believe that his noble and learned friend 
 would have no objection to strike these 
 words out, and to let the question go 
 to the judges without any limitation. 
 With regard to the general argument 
 of the noble lord, he thought the view 
 taken by him was founded altogether 
 in mistake. He desired that no man 
 should suppose that he meant to argue 
 that it was not as bad to endeavour to 
 corrupt those who had not been brought 
 forward as witnesses, as it was to suborn 
 those who had actually been before the 
 house. In his opinion, to attempt cor- 
 ruption in the one instance was just 
 as iniquitous as in the other; but what 
 he contended was, that in the latter 
 case they had nothing to do with it at 
 this time, and ought not to be called 
 upon to go into an irrelevant inquiry, 
 which he did not see could have any 
 effect on the present proceedings. If 
 the judges should be of opinion that the 
 evidence might be received, he cunsit 
 dered that justice would require that 
 they should hear what the parties ac- 
 cused could offer in their defence. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE concurred in opi- 
 nion with Earl Grey and spoke at some 
 length, but in a tone of voice which was 
 flot distinctly heard below the bar. The 
 evidence he thought ought to be re- 
 ceived or rejected by their lordship's 
 decision. He had not altered the opi- 
 nion which he gave on the subject yes- 
 terday. Having considered the matter 
 «till further, and called to his recollection 
 his practicejat the bar in early life, he 
 lelt convinced with his noble friend (Earl 
 Grey) that the examination of the wit- 
 ness ought to be allowed without any 
 question being put to the judges. He 
 thought it strange that, after the ad- 
 mission had been made that the ho»i-e 
 were bound by techuical rules, but 
 were to attain the truth and administer 
 substantial justice, the admission of 
 this testimony should be opposed ; and 
 in that anomalous proceeding all the 
 di&advautages were sliU thrust upou 
 
 38 
 
 the queen, and none of the advauttigei 
 accorded to bet. 
 
 The Earl of LAUDERDALE said, 
 the question ap[)eared to him to be, 
 whether the house wouM abide by the 
 rules of evidence of the courts of law 
 or not. If the excellence of those 
 rules were admitted in tite courts below, 
 he desired to know why they were not 
 applicable to the highest as well as 
 the lowest courts of judicature. 
 
 The Earl of ROSLYN said, that the 
 bouse was bound to dispose of the bil 
 according to the evidence adduced by 
 the promoters of it ; but was it nothing 
 to ascertain in what manner that evi- 
 dence had been collected ? Was it no- 
 thing to shew that the fountain from 
 which it was drawn was corrupted, and 
 nn truth could flow from such a source? 
 Wa3 it nothing to shew this from those 
 who had refused the proffered bribe, 
 and who dec'ared the agent that ten- 
 dered it ? Did any body, in point of 
 fact, doubt the agency of Vilmacarti in 
 this cause ? Nobody could now doubt 
 the agency of either co onel ' rown or 
 Mr. Powell; for the latter, by his re- 
 fusal to give the letter of the former, 
 clearly established the diect agency of 
 both. If, with these palpable facts be- 
 fore their lordship*, with these pro- 
 ceedings of agents so long engaged in 
 collecting testimony, they should deem 
 it right to reject in the present stao^e of 
 their proceedings, the only inquiry 
 which could make their future pro- 
 gress safe, then indeed, he should be 
 obliged to confess that he saw no safety 
 for the administration of justice there 
 — that he saw no hope of the salutary 
 protection of the community, no safe- 
 guard against the recurrence of dark 
 and dubious means to entrap testimony 
 destined to sap the foundation of jus- 
 tice (hear). 
 
 After some further discussion, in 
 which Lord Manners, the Earl of Do- 
 noughmore, Elarl Grosvenor, Lord 
 Kedesdale, the Lord Chancellor, the 
 Marquis of Lausdovru, and Lord King 
 tool: part. 
 
 It y/as agreed to refer two questions ; 
 they vvere in stibstance as implied by 
 the preceding argument : whether in 
 courts of ordinary judicature, evidence 
 can be received of corrupt practices, of 
 bribery, and subornation of perjury, in 
 a cause under trial, by any agent, with- 
 out previously establishing in proof the 
 fact of his agency. 
 
 The judges thea fetir«4 
 
298 
 
 DEFENCE OF THli QUEKN. 
 
 After au hour's absence, the judges 
 returued to the house. 
 
 LORD CN1I:f JUSTICE ABBOT 
 stated, that the judges had conferred 
 together on the questions propounded 
 to them ; but, iu cousequene of their 
 great importance, they required farther 
 time, until to-morrow, before they de- 
 livered their opinion. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR im- 
 mediately moved the adjournment of 
 the house. 
 
 The Earl of CARNARVON did not 
 conceive that their lordships could be 
 more unprofitably employed than 
 sittinj^ in tliat place discussing techni- 
 cal questions; because it appeared to 
 him that the point of law which had 
 beens ) much debated had no connexion 
 whatever with the point of duty, on 
 which tliey would ultimately he called 
 to decide for themselves. Whether this 
 5iileged conspiracy be proved or be not 
 proved, the real question for their 
 lordships' decision must be whether 
 they would yield to the demand of mi- 
 nisters ; first tc^ give them the human 
 sacrifice for which they thirsted (hear), 
 and, when they had immolated their 
 victim, to proceed to inquire by what 
 faul crime-., by what wicked artifices, 
 that victim had been led to the altar ? 
 (Hear). This was the most extraor- 
 dinary proposition that a minister of 
 the crown had ever assumed the right 
 of submitting to their lordships, buf 
 still it was the true question now be- 
 fore them. Their lordships might do 
 well to amuse themselves by putting 
 questions to the judges, but it was im- 
 possible for them to get rid of the ques- 
 tion which he had stated ; therefore, 
 he thought they had belter at once meet 
 that question boldly and manfully 
 (hear, hear). But if ihey thought 
 proper to wait for a decision on this 
 point of law, which, he repeated, was 
 wholly irrelevant to the point of duty, 
 it would seem as if they were afraid of 
 the great question. He would not apo- 
 logize for this sort of appeal, which, 
 to some, might appear to be a waste of 
 time, be< ause h was convinced that 
 tkey could not waste their time worse 
 than pursuing the line of proceeding 
 which they had adopted. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE rose for the pur- 
 pose of proposing that another question 
 should be rcfei red to the judges, with 
 the view of ascertaining whether evi- 
 dence like that on which their lord- 
 ships had been debating, and on the 
 
 propriety of reeeiving whieh, no dtti- 
 »ioii had yet taken place, might not, 
 under particular circumstances, be le- 
 galized, and rendered adniiasibl* . Al- 
 though the question put to the learned 
 judges might be by them decided iu the 
 affirmative, he would assume that a ne* 
 gative decision had taken place, and 
 under that supposition would put the 
 following question : — *' Supposing:, ac- 
 cording to the rule of law, evidence 
 of a conspiracy, by suborned witnesses 
 to support any prosecution, ought not 
 to be admitted, except such as applies 
 to the prosecutor, or the agents em- 
 ployed by him, whose general evidence 
 of such conspiracy will not, neverthe- 
 less, iu tho first instance, be received, 
 as a preliminary step to connect the 
 prosecutor himself, or any agent em- 
 ployed by him, with the conspiracy ? 
 and whether, by the same rule, evi- 
 dence should not be received from the 
 defendant, he seeking to establish the 
 existence of a conspiracy to suborn 
 evidence against him ? His lorpship 
 moved, " that this question be referred 
 to the judges." 
 
 The question was referred to the 
 judges, and at lialf-past two o'clock 
 the house adjourned. 
 
 WEDNESDAY, October 18. 
 
 The LORD CHIEF JUSTICE this 
 day delivered his judgment in the nam« 
 of all his brother judges on tlie ques- 
 tions which were yesterday submitted 
 to them. He said he had conferred 
 with his learned brother judges on the 
 questions submitted to them by theit 
 lordships, on which they had not been 
 able to come to a decision yesterday. 
 He, after considering the subject with 
 them, had written down his own opi- 
 nion. This, on perusing it, his learned 
 brothers had thought proper to adopt, 
 and he was, therefore, authorised to 
 deliver it to the house as their opinion. 
 His lordship then proceeded to read 
 the paper, which he had drawn up. 
 It stated the first question referred to 
 their consideration, which he (Chief 
 Justice Abbott^ regarded as one of 
 great importance, and had accordingly 
 given it all the attention due to it, 
 with anxiety proportioned to its im- 
 portance; and he now, with great dif- 
 fidence, submitted the result of that 
 consideration to the house. He con- 
 sidered it his duty to view the question 
 as if the parties were reversed ; and 
 he then proceeded to show what might 
 
p. POMATI. 
 
 im 
 
 ^Ihe effoof of the adoption of (he prin- 
 iciple contended for in tl«e case he had 
 supposed. He shewed that, under 
 particuhir circumstances, it might ^o 
 to throw discredit on a just defence, 
 and thus lead to tlic condcnfjnalion of 
 an innocent [)er.son. 'litis consider- 
 ation enabled him to contemplate with 
 more calmness the answer which he 
 should feel it to be his duty to give. 
 Id cases like the present, a2;ents, to 
 obtain evidence were necessarily em- 
 ployed : and there was no disgrace in 
 employing, or in heins: employed, as 
 an ajjent. Tlje principal in any case 
 «ould only be affected by the acts of 
 the a^ent, where those acts were au- 
 thorised by the principal. One person 
 could not be disgraced by the actions 
 of another who might be his agent, 
 unless the actions referred could be 
 proved to have been done by his imme- 
 <Hate order. It was possible that up 
 to the moment of the opening of the 
 prosecution, the prosecutor might be 
 ignorant of the acts of his agent, and 
 would reject the means that were used 
 if they came within his knowledge. An 
 important consideration s<uggesfed itself 
 «' to the effects such acts ought to have 
 on the character of witnesses. These 
 might be numerous and respectable in 
 a case where the agent for the prose- 
 cution had grossly mifconducled him- 
 self; and the witnesses were not all 
 to be regarded as perjured knaves, be- 
 cause certain wicked endeavours had 
 heen made to seduce other persons, by 
 tnoney or other means, to give evidence 
 to the same effect, lie, tnerefore, came 
 to the conclusion that in this case, as in 
 that which he had siipposed as anrJo- 
 gous to it, the question could not be 
 put. If it were proved that practices 
 of the kind alluded to had been re- 
 sorted to by the agent, a slight degree 
 of suspicion might in consequence at- 
 tach to the witnesses, but it wa«? not on 
 suspicions that the verdict of a jury 
 ought to be founded — it ought to rest 
 apon facts. He begged to add, that ho 
 by DO means went the length of saying 
 that, in no case, and under no possible 
 circumstances, could evidence of the 
 Dafure now tendered be received. His 
 lordship was of opinion that the whole 
 case ought to be opem^d, in order that 
 the judges might form an adequate opi- 
 nion, whether, under all the circum- 
 stances, and the different bearings of 
 those circumstances, the propounded 
 
 proof of conspiracy could or could not 
 be admiited. 
 
 The ATTORNEY GENERAL said, 
 the opinion of the judges had shown 
 tiiat iiis o?)jectii)n was well founded ; 
 notwithstanding which, however, he 
 had not the least objection to the in. 
 quiry being gone into respccdng tUe 
 conduct of the gentlemen who had 
 formed the Milan Commi-sion, reserv- 
 ing, however, to those gentlemen, the 
 right of calling witnesses for their own 
 vindication, in answer to any evidence 
 that might be brought against them on 
 t'le other side. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said, he could 
 not exactly arrive at the real decision 
 of thojudffes. 
 
 Lord LIVERPOOL was clearly of 
 opinion, that unless the rules and re- 
 gulations respecting evidence obtain- 
 ing in the courts below, were observed 
 generally on the present occasion, the 
 house would be coiuinuallv plunged 
 into collateral investigations beside the 
 present question. Still, however, he 
 for one, should be most anxious for tlie 
 house to enter into a full examination 
 of the conduct of the Milan Commis- 
 sion, provided they thought this the pe- 
 riod at which it was fit that investi- 
 gation of their conduct ought to be 
 gone into. 
 
 Lord GREY conceived that the pro- 
 posed examination which had been in- 
 terrupted ought to he gone into, but 
 he could by no means entertain that 
 opinion on the grounds stated by the 
 Attorney-General, or by the noble 
 lord on the other side of the bouse. 
 The noble earl then moved, that the 
 witness should be called in, and asked 
 the question which had been objected 
 to. 
 
 After some further observations from 
 the Lord Chancellor and Lord Erskine, 
 the witness was ordered to be called 
 in accordingly- 
 Previous to the arrival of the wit- 
 ness, Mr. Granville Sharpe was, at the 
 instance of Lord Kenyon, called to 
 the bar to correct tlite statement which 
 had been made of the Bishop of Cal- 
 cutta having been present at the Turk- 
 ish dance, described in his evidence. 
 He since understood the Bishop was 
 not there. 
 
 SAMUEL INMAN, of the Navy- 
 office, presented to tbo house extracts 
 from the ships' books relative to the 
 service of William Carringtoo. 
 
300 
 
 fofiPfiKCE OP TH« QUEEN. 
 
 POMPELLIO POIMATI recalled 
 a^d examined by Mr. Wilde. 
 
 All the previous questions and an- 
 swers of the witness were repeated 
 until the short-band writer came to the 
 question to which the objection had 
 been taken. 
 
 Mr. WILDE then put the following 
 question : — 
 
 You have stated that Vilmacarti had 
 told joti to bring her royal highness's 
 papers; did he offer you any indui^e- 
 inent to bring those papers ? He told 
 me that he would have given me an em- 
 ployment, and that he would have given 
 me more emolument than my employer. 
 The further testimony given by the 
 witness was as follows ; — 
 
 The employment which he promised 
 me was in the police cif Milan. On 
 the following day I brought him some 
 l>apers. He told me to come after suh- 
 set. 1 took papers in this way to Vil- 
 macarti seven or eight times. I took 
 them from the office of Codatzi, the 
 queen's advocate, I received money 
 for taking these papers. Vilmacarti 
 knew 1 was a clerk in Codatzi's office. 
 I received money for taking these pa- 
 pers six times. I was not satisfied with 
 the money I had received (laughter). 
 I complained once to Colonel Brown 
 that Vilmacarti had not given me money 
 enough for taking her royal highness's 
 papers to him. He told me that be 
 was a friend to the advocate Vilma- 
 carti, and that I ought not to doubt 
 he would pay me what he had pro- 
 •pised me. Colonel Brown told me to 
 call the next day on Vilmacarti, and 
 that he would give me something. I 
 went, and received some more money. 
 The papers which I took to Vilmacarti 
 were letters and other papers relating 
 to evidence in favour of the princess. 
 I know a man of the name of Ri- 
 ganti. He applied to me for papers. 
 I spoke to Vilmacarti of him. I said 
 I did not know him ; and he told me 
 be was a man of character. He ap- 
 plied to me for papers respecting the 
 affairs of her ro^al highness. Riganti 
 knewl was in the service of Codatzi. 
 He told me he would give me a deal of 
 money. 
 
 Cross-examined by the SOUCITOR- 
 GENERAL. — There was a person who 
 came to me twice, and urged me to go 
 to Vilmacarti ; he took me twice. He 
 said I should be made a gentleman of 
 if I went. I knew Vilmacarti was em- 
 ployed in the process against her royal 
 
 highness when I went. Codatzi, irty 
 employer, was employed in the affairs 
 of the princess in Italy. I did not, as 
 an honest man, communicate to him 
 the message I had received to take 
 away the papers. 1 do not know the 
 person by whom I was desired to go 
 to Vilmacarti. 1 met him accidentally 
 in the street. — The witness underwent 
 a further long cross-examinati&u, 
 during which he confirmed his former 
 testimony. He said he was induced 
 to cume here solely from a desire to 
 repair the evil which he had done. 
 He expected no reward. He was now 
 I in the cloth trade; and did not intend 
 to go back to the service of Codatzi. 
 
 PHILLIPPO POMI recalled and ex- 
 amined by Mr. Tyndall.— I know a 
 person of the name of Riganti. He 
 lives at the Porto di Genesa, Milan. 
 He sells tobacco, vinegar, &c. When 
 1 went to his shop he had always some- 
 thing to tell me. 
 
 The ATTORNEY GENERAL ob- 
 jected to any evidence being received 
 of offers made by Riganti. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR thought 
 that, after what the last witness had 
 said respecting Vilmacarti andRigauti, 
 this evidence might be received. 
 
 Witness in continuation, — I went to 
 buy salt or something else, and he 
 asked me (for he knew that I belonged 
 to the Barona), if 1 bad ever seen those 
 ** scherze" between the princess asd 
 Bergarai ; if I did, now was the lime 
 to come forward to obtain somethiug, 
 and become a man (the interpreter ex< 
 plained that ** scherze" meant any- 
 thing or nothing). I answel-ed ** No, 
 I bad seen no scherze ;" and then he 
 replied, *' How ! have you not seen 
 Bergami putting the princess on horse 
 or ass-iback, and thrust his hand——?" 
 I told him that this was a true false- 
 hood fmuch laughter) ; for, instead 
 of that, he paid her all possible repect 
 and decency — such as the greatest per- 
 sonage required— such as was due to 
 her. The same sort of conduct oc- 
 curred whenever I went into the shop, 
 so that I was obliged, iu fact, never 
 more to go into his shop, and 1 left it 
 altogether, because he bothered me so 
 much on this subject — he gave me so 
 much trouble and annoyance. 
 
 Cross-examined by the ATTORNEY- 
 GENERAL. — These conversations 
 passed when there were several people 
 in the shop. Riganti went so far to as 
 say, they would wage war against 
 
A. MAOmi. 
 
 301 
 
 Uifepnncegs till Jeath. There was a 
 tl9fein whose name was Antonio Baroggi 
 present when he said this. 
 
 TVVENXY-THIKD WITNESS. 
 ANTONIO MAOINI examined by 
 Mr. Williams. — I come from Venice : 
 1 was formerly in the police : I am now 
 a mana<;er of estates. I know a person 
 of the name of Paoli Zanjjli ; he was a 
 manager of a theatre at Venice. I was 
 acquainted with him in March, 18)8. 
 1 remember being with him at the 
 Theatre San Lucca last year, in the 
 month of November, 1 remember his 
 receiving two letters at once. 1 saw 
 him open them, and 1 saw amotion of 
 surprise when he read them. Zangli 
 and I went to Milan about siic or seven 
 days after the receipt of the letters. 
 We went by the diligence. When we 
 arrived at the place from whence the 
 diligence set out, 1 saw Zangli receive 
 15 Napoleons d'or, which were sent 
 him from Milan. When we arrived 
 at Milan I went with Zangli to a house 
 in the Porto d'Orientale — to the house 
 No. 660. There was a tailor's shop on 
 one side of this house. Zangli went 
 up stairs ; I remained below till bis 
 return, 1 also accompanied Zangli to 
 the house of Vilmacarti. On that oc- 
 casion Zangli went up and waited an 
 hour and a half. We afterwards went 
 to the house of another man, and then 
 to the house of Colonel or Major Brown. 
 It was to Colonel Brown's house we 
 first went. When Zangli went up on 
 the seopnd occasion, I again waited 
 below. In a quarter of an hour Zangli 
 came down. He bad his hand full 
 of double Napoleons. He told me there 
 were 80. 
 
 What did he say to you then ? 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL ob- 
 jected to this question, and said, that 
 «t present there was not the slighest 
 pretence for asking the house to admit 
 evidence so irregular as the conver- 
 sation, whatever it might be, between 
 Zangli and the witness of what passed 
 between the former and the person 
 with whom he had been. As the case 
 now stood, there was nothing whatever 
 to show that Zangli was either the 
 agent of Colonel Brown or Vilmacarti. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS contended that, in 
 point of law, the que»tiou was per- 
 fectly admissible. The evidence for 
 which he called fell within the. ordinary 
 rule of declarations accompanying 
 *e fact, but be did not mean to rest 
 on that. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL denied 
 that they came within any such rule. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS renewed his argu- 
 ment, and contended that the question 
 ought to be put. Suppose ihe Witness 
 were to say that he was told to make 
 depositions against the queen, whether 
 true or not, and to receive for thena 
 valuable considerations — suppose this 
 should appear to be the declaration 
 made bv Zauicli to the witness. 
 
 The A'lTORNEY-GENERAL here 
 interrupted Mr. Williams, and objected 
 to his learned friends, arg;uinsc on any 
 such declaration, which, in this stasr* 
 of the proceeding, was perfectly inad- 
 missible. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS said in reply, that 
 the judges, in delivering their opinion 
 this day, had said, that on a trial for a. 
 conspiracy, it was competent for the 
 party to begin at whatever end of that, 
 conspiracy they thought proper. The 
 usual practice, they said, was to beg^hi 
 with evidence of a general nature,' 
 showing the existence of the conspi- 
 racy, and then to adduce the details, 
 bringing it home to individuals. His 
 object now was to show that an opinion 
 prevailed in Italy, that if witnesses 
 came forward against the queen, whe- 
 ther right or wrong was their testi- 
 mony, they would be profitably re- 
 warded. He had here shown that one 
 witness bad received a letter, in conse^ 
 queuce of which he had gone to Col, 
 Brown, and that when he came down 
 from that person he had a handful of 
 money, which he showed to the witness, 
 who is now ready to prove the fact. 
 This was' only a step in the cause it 
 was true ; but how else but by steps 
 were they to unravel the conspiracy? 
 How else was he to proTe it, except 
 by showing the parts of which It con- 
 sisted .' 
 
 Mr. TYNDALL followed on the 
 same side. An agency was to be proved 
 in several ways, both by direct proof, 
 and by reference. It was in a variety 
 of instances only to be proved by the 
 latter. Suppose, for instance, a charge 
 of bribery was brought against a can- 
 didate at an election, how rarely in the 
 first instance could evidence be ob- 
 taifted directly to affect the agent? 
 The only way to ascertain the fact, 
 was to trace his conduct by his acts, to 
 find out the individual by it, and then 
 trace the bribe to the party giving it ; 
 that was the course they were taking 
 here. 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, iu 
 
302 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 reply, entreated the house to pause 
 before it admitted this evidcuce, and 
 see the importauce of adhering to the 
 ordinary rule of law, which was fatal to 
 the admissibility of this question. They 
 had now heard that ihey were Jo be 
 called upon to admit as evidence in 
 this cause the prevalent reports which 
 mi^bt have been circulated in Italy, 
 because it was possible they might 
 have made an impression on the miods 
 of the witnesses. The house mi«ht 
 now clearly see the extent to which 
 the other side wished evidence to be 
 received. No man could in future be 
 safe if it were allowed ; and if was his 
 fthe Aitorney-General'i) duty to ob- 
 ject to it, when the object vVas to sub- 
 stantiate so foul, so heinous a crime. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said that he had 
 no right to reply, he only wished to 
 explain. 
 
 The ATT0RNEV-GENER4L: I 
 object, mv lords, to this examination. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM : I only beg to 
 say, that we do not attack CoJ. Brown 
 (order, order). 
 
 The LORD CHANCFXLOR said 
 that three grounds had been urged for 
 receiving this evidence : — 1st, That 
 testimony might be given of general 
 impressions abroad ; but this was the 
 first time his lordship had ever heard 
 ftf such testimony being offered. Se- 
 condly, it was asserted that agency 
 had been established. He could not 
 conceive on what ground the decla- 
 rations of Zangli, when he came down 
 stairs to the witness, could be admitted 
 as the proof of what had passed up 
 stairs, if this were to be proved, at 
 all events it must be proved by Zangli 
 himself, unless the rule that the best 
 evidence that could be obtained should 
 be adduced was completely reversed. 
 The third point urged was, that this 
 might in the result turn out to be evi« 
 dence of a conspiracy ; but here again 
 his lordship knew of no case where 
 such had been allowed, and where it 
 was not required that the party pro- 
 ducing the evidence should connect it 
 more immediately with the charge. 
 For these reasons he thought that the 
 objection urged by the Attdrney-Ge- 
 neral ought to prevail. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE entertained some 
 eonsiderable doubts upon the subject. 
 He agreed that this question ought to 
 be viewed as if the objection had been 
 taken on an indictment; and he ad- 
 mitted also, that before such eyidence 
 eo«Id be entered upon, couneeji ought 
 
 to explain its object, nnd to ftate wts'ii 
 he intended to attempt by the produc- 
 tion of the witness. If the proof failed, 
 no party would be affecti'd. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR hrid 
 no objection to the opinion of the 
 judges being taken on the subject, and 
 Lord Erskiiie expressed his assent. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said, thnt the 
 house might remember tl-.at he was not 
 allowed to open the njiture of the evi- 
 dence on this point. 
 
 Lord EK3KINE observed, that coun- 
 sel ought not only to be permitted to 
 open it, but were required to open it. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR, after 
 exchanging a few words with the 
 judges who Fat near him, said, that 
 though it might not be regular, he was 
 authorized to ?ay that the judges enter- 
 tained no doubt that the evidence 
 , ought not to be received. 
 
 LordREDESDALE,in a few words, 
 expressed his concurrence. 
 
 Earl GREY felt disposed to agree 
 in the opinion given by the Lord 
 Chancellor, and upon the three grounds 
 that he had stated. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM. Will your 
 lordshiiis allow me to state-— 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR: The 
 house, I dare say, will have no objec- 
 tion to allow you to stitte what yoii . 
 wish to-morrow, but it is now four 
 o'clock. — Adjourned. 
 
 THURSDAY, October 19. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM this day prepared 
 10 continue the examination of the 
 witness Maoni, for the purpose of 
 shewing by his evidence that Zangla 
 had been party to a conspiracy against 
 the queen, by offering to him (Maoni) 
 a bribe to induce him to swear to factte 
 of which he had no knowledge. 
 
 This led to a discussion of consider- 
 able length, which terminated in the 
 rejection of the question — as there was 
 no proof of Zangla having acted as aa 
 authorized ag«nt. 
 
 Antonio Maoni recalled, and exa- 
 mined by Mr. WILLIAMS.— You 
 stated yesterday, that you went with 
 Zangla from Venice to Milan ? I 
 did. 
 
 Did you rettim with Zangla to Ve- 
 nice?— Yes. 
 
 How many days were you at Milan?. 
 —Two days. 
 
 What is the distance from Milan to 
 Venice ?—One hundred and cifhty-five 
 miles. 
 
 Did you pay youy own exptnsef , or 
 
A. MAONI. 
 
 303 
 
 dill aay one pay them for you? — I did 
 uot pay even one-hundredth part of a 
 livre*; Zaugla paid the whole. 
 
 Had you any business of your own 
 at Mihiu ? — No. 
 
 Had Zangla any as a stage mana«j:«;r 
 or otherwise ? — None. He went only 
 for this object. 
 
 What do you mean by this object ? 
 The ATi'ORNEY-GENEKAL ob- 
 jected to the question. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said that they 
 only wanted to know what the witness 
 meant by certain words »ie had used. 
 He had never before h«ard suci> an ex- 
 planation objected to. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR said, 
 that perhaps the question could be put 
 in a shape which wouM leave no room 
 for objection 
 
 Mr.' WILLIAMS said, he would en- 
 deavour to do so. 
 
 T» the witness. — Did you see Zangla 
 do any thing else than go to the Porto 
 Orientale and the Rue Gabello? — He 
 went also to look aftet a person of the 
 pame of Jmberti, a sort of second ma- 
 Bager of the theatre. 
 
 You told us, yesterday, you saw 
 Zangla come down stairs from colonel 
 Brown « ith a number of Napoleons in 
 his hand ? Yes, I did. 
 • At that time did he make you any 
 offer ? 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL ob- 
 jected to the question ; it was to the 
 very same purpose as that which their 
 lordships had just decided should not 
 be put. 
 
 Mr, WILLIAMS : it is a question as 
 to a fact. 
 
 The SO LI CI TOR -GENERAL: And 
 
 we object to that fact, as not relevant. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR. I must 
 
 confess it does appear to me to be the 
 
 same question as that last rejected. 
 
 Mp. brougham : Am I then to 
 understand that i he jlecision of your 
 lordships is to apply to all other evi- 
 dence that we may have ready to ad- 
 duce of similar offers having been made 
 to suborn and bribe. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR:— Mr. 
 Brougham it would be infinitely too 
 daring for the house to give an answer 
 to your qufStioD. The house can only 
 decide on each question as it arises. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM . We can tender 
 no other kind of evidence that can 
 bring the case of conspiracy nearer to 
 the Milan Com missioD than that which 
 your lordships are pleased to reject. 
 
 We have not Hasteili to produce, w^ 
 have not Riganti to produce; we have 
 no means of compelling their appear- 
 ance. All that we can do we are ready 
 to do ; but your lordships seem to say, 
 that all we can do is of no avail. I un- 
 derstand your lordships to be of opi-. 
 nion, that the calling on col. l^rown, 
 the bringing out of money from him, 
 and shewing tliat money, as a bribe re- 
 ceived to bear evidence against her ma- 
 jesty, are circumstances not sufficient 
 to connect the bribery with the agents 
 of the Milan Commission, if so, I 
 can only say that you cut thus the clue 
 of our case; we can, situated as we 
 are, Rastelli being withdrawn from us, 
 and Kiganti beyond our reach, pro- 
 duce nostronger evidence than we have 
 tendered, and your lordships have re- 
 jected. If such is the decision your 
 lordships have come to, then we need 
 not carry farther the line of evidence 
 on which we had entered. 
 
 The LORD CH ANCELF^OR : All 
 I can say, without taking the sense of 
 the house on the subject, is, that th« 
 question of calling other witnesses 
 must be left entirely to your own dis- 
 cretion, and 1 am sure it cannot be 
 left to any better. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM : Then we have a 
 further question to put to the witness 
 Maoni. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL de- 
 clined any cross-examination. 
 
 By LORD LAUDERDALE.— When 
 you saw the Napoleons in the hand of 
 Zangla, were they loose, in bags, or in 
 paper ? He had a handful, and a large 
 hand he has! (A laugh.) 
 
 TWENTY-FIFTH WITNESS. 
 
 RUMARIGO SALV ADORE, S exa- 
 mined by Mr. DENMAN : I am from 
 Treviso ; 1 am Professor of Literature, 
 teacher of the Italian and Latin lan<^ 
 guages, and 1 reside at Lausanne, in 
 Switzerland. In 1818 I was at Lau- 
 sanne, and saw Sacchi. He held a 
 conversation with me on the subject of 
 the process against her royal high- 
 ness. 
 
 Did he make any application to you 
 on the subject? 
 
 The ArrORNEY-GENERAL ob- 
 jected to this question, upon the ground 
 that the declaration of Sacchi^ given by 
 any other person, was hot admissible 
 under such circumstances, Sacchi not 
 having been proved to be an agent. 
 
304 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 Mr. DENMAN said, his object in 
 asking the question was to prove that 
 Sacclii had assured the witness that his 
 fortune would be made if he gave evi- 
 . deuce against the queen, and of course 
 to shew that tiie evidence of Sacchi 
 against her royal highness was inad- 
 missible. The agency of Sacchi had 
 been established by the evi<lence of 
 De Mont aud another witness. He 
 could prove, that at Lausanne, Sacchi 
 performed acts under the Commission. 
 [Mr. Denman here read a great part 
 of the evidence of De Mont and of 
 Sacchi, to prove the employment of 
 Sacchi as an a^entj. 
 
 Mr. PARKE said, the nature of the 
 evidence just quoted was not such as 
 was calculated to establish the agency 
 of Sacchi. The only evideij ce to prove 
 the agency was, that Sacchi had brought 
 a witness from Laii«^anne, aud thai he 
 had gone to Charnitz, but for what 
 specific purpose did not appear. No 
 proof had been given that he had been 
 employed by the Commission to collect 
 cvidence'generally. 
 
 Mr. DENMAN said, their lordships 
 would be guilty of the worst of blind- 
 ness, if they would now refuse to open 
 their eyes to a conspiracy established 
 for such base purposes. When the 
 Milan Commission was talked of, it 
 was not spoken of as an abstract ques- 
 tion, but as a subject upon which 
 there was no doubt. If Sacchi had 
 been found employed by the Commis- 
 sion, at Lausanne and at Charnitz, in 
 the way he was ready to prove, it was 
 clear that he was the agent of the Com- 
 mission in as great a degree, or indeed 
 a greater degree, than if Riganti had 
 been concerned. If, then, Sacchi was 
 known to be an authorised agent going 
 about and abusing the authority under 
 which he was actiug, could their lord- 
 ships refuse to hear evidence in proof 
 of slich vile employment? If it was 
 lawful to inquire into the acts of the 
 Milan Commission, it was surely com- 
 petent to their lordships to inquire into 
 the conduct of the agents of that Com- 
 mission, in gathering the evidence 
 against her royal highness. 
 
 It was finally agreed to put the fol- 
 lowing questions to the judges, the first 
 proposed by the Lord Chancellor, and 
 the latter by Lord Erskine." 
 
 " Whether, in the administration of 
 justice in the courts below, when a 
 witness for the prosecution had been 
 examined in chief, ^ad had not been 
 
 cross-examined as to any declarationf 
 he had made relating to his procuring 
 witnesses for the prosecution, whether 
 the counsel for the defence could bring 
 evidence to prove such declaration, 
 without first calling on the witness to 
 know if he had ever made such decla- 
 ration ? 
 
 " If in any trial a witness is called 
 on the part of the plaintiff, and gives 
 evidence against the defendant, and if, 
 after the cross-examination, it is dis- 
 covered that the witness so examined 
 has endeavoured to corrupt persons to 
 ifive evidence against the defendant, 
 whether counsel for the defendant may 
 not be allowed to adduce evidence of 
 such corrupt acts ?" 
 
 'I'he judges having withdrawn to de- 
 liberate on these questions, the house 
 adjourned at half-past three. 
 
 FRIDAY, October 20. 
 
 On the motion of the Marquis of 
 Lansdown, the order of the house of 
 the 2Ist of August, by which the wit- 
 nesses were ordered to be in attendance 
 de diem in die was read ; and it was 
 read j and it was directed, that all the 
 witnesses who had been examined 
 should in future be in attendance, so 
 that they'might be recalled if the house 
 should have occasion to call them. 
 
 The CHIEF JUSTICE ABBOTT 
 delivered the opinion of himself and 
 his brother judges on the questions 
 which were yesterday submitted to 
 them, which in substance amounted to 
 this — ** That, according to the prac*. 
 tice aud usage of the courts below, as 
 by law administered, the proposed 
 proofs could not be adduced without 
 the previous cross-examination of the 
 party intended to be impugned, to the 
 iPacts and declaration, charged against 
 him, and for this purpose he might be 
 immediately called back." 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR asked 
 Mr. Brougham whether he now wished 
 that Sacchi should be called back? 
 
 Mr BROUGHAM thought they had 
 already had a sufficient foundation for 
 the question proposed, without recalling 
 Sacchi. 
 
 Mr. GURNEY, by order of the house, 
 read the question proposed. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR then 
 put it to the house, whether this ques- 
 tion should be put or not ? 
 
 Earl GREY thought that sufficient 
 evidence had been offe<*ed to conuf ^ 
 Sacchi with the Milan Commission as 
 
A. MAONL 
 
 305 
 
 their agent; and in this impiession, he 
 moved that the question siiould be put. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL denied 
 that Sacchi had been i)roved to be an 
 agent of the Miltfn Couwnissiou, and 
 ou tlnat nioliou he ground opposed the 
 motion. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE said, that even sup- 
 po-sing Sacchi had not been proved to 
 lie an agent ou tiiis ortasitui, yet that 
 as it was important for the house to see 
 the extent to which the subornation of 
 perjury had gone, he should support 
 the motion for putting the question. 
 
 Earl DARN LEY read a question 
 which he put to Ue Mont, and in which 
 she stated '* that Sacchi had told her 
 Le asked her to go to Milan, on the 
 part of the Commission." After this 
 would it be said that Sacchi was not an 
 agent of ihat Comnussion ? 
 
 Lord MANNERS thought, consist- 
 ently with th€ laws of evidence, this 
 question could not be put. He called 
 upon the house, with a view to the 
 preservation of their own dignity, to 
 adhere to the rules of law. He thought 
 it ought to be put to the jtidges, whe- 
 ther Sacchi had or had not been proved 
 to be an agent. 
 
 The Marquis of LANSDOWN sub- 
 mitted that the house ought to deride 
 the propriety of putting this question 
 upon their own judgment. Jt was a 
 mere question of fact as to whether 
 agency had been proved or not, and 
 upon this the house were themselves 
 the only competent judges. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR then 
 put the question " as to whetlier the 
 question proposed should be now put 
 or not." 
 
 The house divided: Contents, 51. — 
 ^on-Conients, J59. — Majority, 108. 
 Coimsel were tlien called in, ai»d 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR in- 
 formed them that it was the opinion 
 of the house that the question cotdd not 
 be ** now put." 
 
 Mr, BROUGHAM said, that he had 
 offered this evidence to shew the man- 
 ner in which the case on the other 
 side had been tainted, and this not 
 under a criminal prosecution, but in 
 the consideration of a bill before their 
 lordships. Placed as he was, he sho.uld 
 for the present close the evidence upon 
 this point of his case, and proceed to 
 another. 
 
 Counsel were now ordered to with- 
 draw. 
 
 j DEPARTURE OF RASTELLL 
 ' The Marquis of LANSDOWN now 
 addressed the house, o.u tiie subject of 
 Rastelli's having been sent out of the 
 country, with a passport Ircm the Fo- 
 reign Office, by an agent eiioaged in 
 the prosecution of the bill then before 
 the house. He adverted toilse fact of a 
 letter leaving been sent by Mr. Powell 
 to colonel Brown by that man, and to 
 the letter whidi Mr. Powell admitted 
 he had subsequently received from co* 
 louel Brown, announcing the indisjjo- 
 sition of Rasteili. He recalled to the 
 recollection of the Ijou'se, the refusal 
 on the part oi Mr. Powell to communi- 
 cate the contents of those letters, upon 
 the grotmd of their being cotifi(Iential 
 documents connected with his official 
 character as an agent in this case, and 
 then submitted that the house had a 
 right to have such extracts from those 
 letters as related t» the illness of Ras- 
 telli, with a view to ascertain in point 
 of fact, whether the true reasons had 
 been stated, first for withdrawing him 
 from the country, and next for his not 
 returning at a period when his testi- 
 mony was so peculiarly required. The 
 noble marquis concluded by moving 
 for suih parts of the correspondence 
 between Mr. Powell and Colonel 
 Brown, as related to the departure of 
 Rastelli, in September last, and to his 
 subsequent detention from this cotmtry. 
 Lord L1VJ5RPOOL was of opinion, 
 that the confidential cm-respondence 
 of a party could rot be called for ; but 
 he was ready to say, the house having 
 now a mixed character, it was for their 
 lordships to consider, whether, as a 
 matter of strict right, this migh! or 
 might not be permitted. Agents, when 
 appointed, were endued with all the 
 confidence due to agents, and he con- 
 sidered Mr. Powell was here as much 
 so, as if he were the agent of the illus- 
 trious person alluded (o so often. This 
 case stood on a different ground from 
 the public doctiments which might be 
 drawn up or signed for inspection, and 
 in a given case might be deemed ne- 
 cessary to be proved. Hut here the 
 confidential agents should not disclore 
 what was confided to them ; and he 
 could not consent to d vest them of the 
 reasonable power they ought to have as 
 such. If this doctrine were true, it 
 applied tb extracts as well as to the 
 whole of a correspondence. It would 
 be unfair t(» garble such correspond- 
 
306 
 
 DEFENCE OP THE QUEEN. 
 
 ence ; but hift objection was, tbe mo- 
 ment agents w«re appointed, they were 
 iu the same situatidn ^s private agents, 
 and should not, therefore, divulge 
 what was confided to them. The cor- 
 respondence called far was that of an 
 agent, and h» should oppose its produc- 
 tion. Public documents might be pro- 
 duced, the confidential communications 
 of agents should not. Lite, ally there 
 \vas no mystery in this case. An im- 
 portant witness most improperly sent 
 #ut of this country — this was most im- 
 proper; but he was sent out by one of 
 the agents, without the knowledge of 
 any other. Every one admitted the 
 impropriety of sending him away, 
 though many differed as to the moMv6s 
 fqr which it was done. He ohjected 
 to the production of the correspondence, 
 and thought, if it was called for at all, 
 a secret committee would be the njost 
 proper to have it referred to. If that 
 met tbe views ol the noble marquis he 
 should have no objection to it. 
 
 Lord KING said Rastelli was proved 
 to have been an agent in the case, and 
 sent out of the country in such a man- 
 ner as was highly improper, and for 
 which, in any other court, the agent 
 who had so sent him would have been 
 struck off from the list of attornies. 
 The object of the motion made by his 
 noble friend, was to see if the motive 
 avowed for sending him out of the 
 Country, was, in point of fact, the real 
 motive. The colleagues of the noble 
 earl might screen themselves under 
 their leader ; but ever since the days of 
 ** The Cabal," he never knew a mi- 
 nistry who acted on so wicked a mea- 
 sure as the present. Witnesses were 
 brought forward by diflferent agents* 
 Kress was brought by a German agent, 
 not arrived — a double agency, a double 
 machinery, was at work, for which the 
 noble earl opposite was responsible. 
 The teat of his sincerity would be the 
 production of this correspondence, if 
 the government had no other object 
 than what they might avow to the pub- 
 lie. If these were not produced, the 
 public would not be satisfied. 
 
 Lord ELLENBOROUGH was af 
 opinion, that in private cases, the acts 
 of agents required concealment j but 
 God forbid he should say concealment 
 was either intended or wished in this 
 case. All they now wish by the pro- 
 duction of these papers, was to ascer- 
 tain if the reasons assigned for sending 
 
 an important agent and witness oat of 
 the way, were founded on truth or not. 
 If it should nppear that the written 
 correspondence differed from Mr. 
 Powell's statement, the inference could 
 be but on6, and that unfavourable to 
 the prosecutors. He should wish, in 
 unison with the opinion of the noble 
 earl (Liverpool), these letters to be 
 referred to a secret committee. , 
 
 Lord ROSLYN could not consider the 
 privilege contended for as belonging to 
 Mr. Powell. The privilege was only 
 given to an attorney for the benefit of 
 his client. There were many cases in 
 which, if an attoniey had been era- 
 ployed confidentially by a party, and 
 ceased to be the attorney in a case then 
 under discussi n, he was liable to be 
 examined. It was material to see who 
 were the agents and parties in this case. 
 The house w«s the party prosecuting, 
 and it was material for the ends of 
 justice that the whole truth should be 
 disclosed. In many cases the principal 
 was examined — especially in divorce 
 cases, to which the present was most 
 analogous. Here however, the prin- 
 cipal, which was the house, waved its 
 right, and the agent should do the same. 
 Lord LIVERPOOL. There could 
 be but one object on this occasion, 
 namely, to get at the truth. But so- 
 lemn principles should not be violated 
 in doing so. As a general principle, 
 he thought acceding to the motion 
 wrong; but, under the peculiar cir- 
 cumstances of the case, extracts might 
 perhaps be safely referred to a secret 
 committee. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR de- >, 
 sired he should not be understood as 
 one of those who had no objection to 
 the present motion. Mr. Powell, in 
 refusing to disclose his corsespondence, 
 acted right, and would have deserved 
 never to be entrusted with any profes- 
 sional employment again, if he had 
 acted otherwise. 
 
 Lord ERSKINE. Contempt was 
 
 not charged oh the Attorney-General, 
 
 ' but it was charged on Mr. Powell, 
 
 j The production of the correspondence 
 
 he conceived essential to the interests 
 
 of public justice.'' 
 
 The Marquis of LANSDOWN. The 
 noble and learned lord at the table was 
 in error, if he supposed him Xo have 
 used any animadversions on the con- 
 duct of Mr. Powell. If the suggestion 
 of the noble earl (Liverpool) met with 
 
A. MAONI, 
 
 307 
 
 the concurrence of the house, he should 
 feci nor difficulty iu adopting it, though 
 not altogether coinciding witli his 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR, in 
 explanation, said, nu noble lord in the 
 house could be less charged with in • I 
 dulging iu anomalios than the noble | 
 marquis. I 
 
 The Marquis of LANSDOV/N.— | 
 Thougli Mr. P well was certainly exa- j 
 mined as to whether or not he had 
 written on the subject of sending Ras- 
 telli out of the country, he wa-; not 
 particularly examined as to the general 
 contents of what he had written. All 
 he wished w&s, to obtain the truth as 
 to this verv important transaction. 
 
 Lord LIVE K POOL thought it would j 
 be more convenient, that the com- ! 
 mittee slwuld have power to call for | 
 such extracts as related lo RastelU's i 
 mission to Milan. I 
 
 Some delay here occurred, in con- j 
 sequence of tlie marquis of Lansdown ! 
 so shaping his motion as to meet the 
 wishes of Lord Liverpool, and it was 
 now read by the Lord Chancellor — 
 **That a setrret committee be appointed 
 to inquire into and examine the corres- 
 pondence between James Allan Powell | 
 and col. Brown, so far as the same re- j 
 lates to sending Kastelli to JVJilan in 
 September last, and as to the cause of 
 his not now beitig here." 
 
 Lord LAUI)ERDA;^E considered 
 that agreeing to this motion would be 
 an act of gross injustice. It would be 
 a most unprecedented aud dangerous 
 proceeding. 
 
 The Marquis of LANSDOWN con- 
 tended that the production of this cor- 
 respondence was of a totally different 
 character from that in which it was 
 represented by the noble lord. It was 
 to elicit the truth in the first place, 
 and as to its being unprecedented, it 
 was only a year or two ago, that the 
 other branch of the legislature ordered 
 the production of a corresponodence 
 between one of its own members^ Mr. 
 Quiu, with a Mr. O'Grady. 
 
 Lord Liverpool and the marquis of 
 Laosdown mutu lly explained. Earls 
 Morton and Limerick were entirely 
 against its production. Lord Hedes- 
 dale said, if the motion were agreed 
 to, the best principles of justice would 
 be violated. 
 
 Earl GREY said, justice would not 
 be done if this correspondence were not 
 produced. The public would not be 
 
 satisfied unless they were satished no 
 improper motive influenced Rastelli's 
 being sent out of the country. Nor 
 could the character of their lordship's 
 house, he maintained, unless every dis- 
 position was evinced to probe the busi- 
 ness to the bottom. As to Mr. Powell's 
 making extracts, nothing could be more 
 nugatory, for, of course, he would 
 make what extracts he pleased, or 
 what he might call extracts, to square 
 wiih his parole evidence. Alter some 
 further remarks, in whi' h his lordship 
 observed he did not approve the motion 
 as read by the lord chancellor, he 
 stated he should move an amendment 
 — *' that Mr. Powell be directed to pro- 
 duce extracts of such parts of hjs cor- 
 respondence with col. Hrown, as related 
 to the mission of Rastelli to Milan. 
 Lord LIVERPOOL: sealed up? 
 Earl GREY : Yes, sealed up. 
 7 he Earl of LIVERPOOL then said 
 he 4ad no objection to the motion so 
 framed. 
 
 The Karl of HAREWOOD, though 
 averse to any s.uch disclosure, thought 
 that the present case called for the 
 production of such parts of Mr Powell's 
 correspondence with Col. Brown, as 
 were essential to explain the transac- 
 tion. 
 
 The Earl of DONOU Gil. MORE 
 concurred in the motion as rendered 
 necessary in the affair of Rastelli. 
 
 The Earl of CARNArcVON thought 
 the motion nugatory, if the committee 
 \ were restricted to such parts as Mr. 
 j Powell thought f»roper to »o select. 
 
 The house then divided on Earl 
 j Grey's motion, as amended, when the 
 I numbers were — Contents 122 — Non- 
 j Contents 79 — majority for the produc- 
 I tion of tfie extracts to a secret com- 
 I mittee 43. 
 
 I On our re-admission below the bar 
 ! we found the Earl of Carnarvon con- 
 j tending that the examination of Mr. 
 ! Pi well respecting the extracts ought to 
 be public. 
 
 Tbe secret committee was then 
 formed of the Marquis of Lansdowne, 
 Earl Grey, the Earl of Carnarvon, th« 
 Earl of Roslyn, the Earl of Lauder- 
 dale, the Earl of Liverpool, Lord Ellen- 
 borough, and one or two other peers, 
 i The motion was then put and carried 
 and the committee wa<? appointed. 
 I The counsel were called in, and the 
 I Chancellor informed them of tht- deci- 
 I sion to whicbthe house had come. 
 i Mr. BROUGHAM then aeclared Jiis 
 
308 
 
 DKFICXOE Of THM qVllES. 
 
 Avish, in this stage of the bill, to pur- 
 sue the investigation into the obstruc- 
 tion which had been thrown in the way 
 of the queen's counsel, by the fact of 
 Raste'lli havin» been sent out of the 
 country, and for that ])i5rpose to call 
 Ivlr. Powell to the bar. 
 
 Earl CARNARVON, with a view to 
 justice, thought this a reasonable re- 
 quest, awl niovt d '* That Mr. Powell 
 should be ajain called to the bar." 
 
 The LOK DC Hr\NCELLOH thought 
 this was a T>roceedingota most danger- 
 ous nature, arising out of another pro- 
 ceeding equally dangerous. His Lord- 
 ship then put the question, "That Mr. 
 Powell should hn called in " 
 
 The Marquis of LANDSDOWN 
 saw no objection to IMr. Powell being 
 called in as the counsel on both sides 
 might exaujiue him. 
 
 Earl Liverpool smd Lord EUenbo- 
 rough ol)jected to Mr. Powell being 
 called in at this moment. Lord Hol- 
 land and Lord Daniley expressed 
 themselves of a contrary opiniDU. 
 
 The question being negatived without 
 a division, the Lord-Chancellor stated 
 that it was the pleasure ot the house 
 that Mr. Powell should; not now be 
 called to the bar. ..;' ^ - ^ 
 
 Mr BROUGHAM intimated that 
 when Mr. Powell did come to the bar, 
 he should pursue his inquiry. 
 
 TWENTY FOURTH WITNESS. 
 : ALEXANDEU OLIVIERA exa- 
 
 • toined lyMr. Tyndall. — I have been in 
 th service of the viceroy of Italy. I 
 was colonel. 1 served in the cam- 
 paign ofHussia. I was a prisoner there. 
 1 returned in Feb. 1816. I was after- 
 wards in the 1 -reuch army as colonel. 
 J was first introduced to her royal 
 highness tlie Princess of Wales in Dec. 
 1816, while • she was at her Villa at 
 Como. I was introduced to her by 
 Baron Cavalleti. 1 recollect after- 
 wards seeing her at Rome ; in 1817, and 
 remained there two months ; 1 thmk it 
 was the beginning of June. At that 
 time I often visited her royal highness. 
 1 also was invited by her roy 1 high- 
 ness to Pesaro, in the mcnth of Nov. 
 1 went there on the 11 th to the Villa 
 Caprini. 1 was asked to join her R. H.'s 
 suite, as one attached to her couit, 
 without any particular employment. 1 
 continued so till the 4th Nov. in the fol- 
 lowing ^eai. 1 then had the honour 
 to be named her chamberlain. 1 w£t^ 
 Joint chamberlain with Bergami. I 
 
 remained in that situation till last Fe- 
 bruary. At this time I do not reoeivt^ 
 any pension from her majesty. I am a( 
 married man, and hav'. a daughter. 
 My wife and daughter live at Rome. 
 Ihey Avere not, while 1 was in her 
 royal highness's service, at Pesaro. I 
 live with them when I . m at Rome. I 
 recollect her royal highness being at 
 Rome atthe beginning of August, 1817. 
 She then set out for Senegagiia. 1 
 supped with her royal highness before 
 she set out. She set out about midnight. 
 1 handed her royal highness into her 
 carriage; it was an English chariot. 
 lieside? her royal highness, the coun- 
 tess Oldi, the chamberlain Bergami, 
 and the little child called Victorine, 
 went into this carriage. 31 r. Vassali 
 and Mr. Hownam were on this journey, 
 1 saw them in their carriage, and bowed 
 to them. I have since travelled in the 
 same carriage in which her royal high- 
 ness travelled on that night. 1 know 
 the carriage very well. Upon that oc- 
 casion Carlo Forti rode as cjourier from 
 Rome. During the time that I was 
 joint chamberlain with H rgami, his 
 conduct towards the princess was that 
 of a respectful servant. I never saw 
 any thing improper or indecorous to- 
 wards her royal highness. When her 
 royal hghness was at Rome, she was 
 visited by persons of the first nobility : 
 the same was the case at Pesaro. 
 Her royal highness has sometimes done 
 me the honour of taking my arm. 
 The ronduct of her royal highness to- 
 wards the gentlemen of her suite was 
 affable but at the same time dignified. 
 Her royal highness after breakfast took 
 an airing, and then returned to her li- 
 brary. She was generally attended on 
 these occasions by all her sixite. While 
 at Pesaro her royal highness had so- 
 ciety at her own house continually. 
 While at Pesaro I never knew her royal 
 highness to iiave a carriage with an 
 apron to it. 
 
 Mr. TYNDALL here closed his ex- 
 amination in chief. 
 
 The wiinesB underwent along cross- 
 examination by the Attorney-General, 
 duving which nothing material or at all 
 affecting his testimony in chief was 
 elicitedl He quitted her royal high- 
 nef-s's service at Rome in February 
 last ; he had been in England about 
 two mouths ; he came in company 
 of the count Schiavini ; he now lived 
 in her majesty's house, but he did not 
 form a part of her family. His ex- 
 
A. OLIVIEllA, 
 
 mo 
 
 peuseA had been paid by the advocate 
 «f her royal highness. The count 
 Schiaviiii gave hiin his share, having 
 received it troui the advocate. No ap- 
 plication vvas made to him to come 
 here. He thought it his duty to write to 
 the ptincess when he heatdthat charges 
 were made against her, as he saw from 
 the newspapers. He saw Bergami last 
 at Rome, when he wds in the service 
 t>f her majesiy, hut he had nut seen 
 him since. He had received nothing 
 beside his expenses. He had received 
 £85 steriiug. Besides Mr. Huwuam 
 and Vassaii, Wm. Au-^iin and L«uis 
 Bergami went on the journey to Sene- 
 gaglia. Schiavitii set out on the fol- 
 lowing day. 1 think two or three car- 
 riages accompanied her royal highness 
 besides her own. He knew the courier 
 Sacchi. He did not see him set out 
 ou fliai occasion. He would swear 
 Dot to have seen him. He saw Carlo 
 Forti set out^ but no other. He set 
 out together with the carriages of her 
 royal highness. This was from the 
 Villa Brand). He did not recollect to 
 have seen any English ladies visit her 
 royal highness at Rome or Pesaro. 
 Faustina, Bergami's sister, never dined 
 with hec ruyal highness ; his mother 
 sometimes did. I never saw Bergarai's 
 wife at Pesaro. 
 
 in re-examiuatiou by Mr. Tyndall, 
 witness said he never saw his own 
 wife at Pesaro. He did not know 
 while her ro^al highness was at Rome 
 that there were any English ladies of 
 coudiijou there. He did not know of 
 any Ejiglish fan»ilies living at Pesaro. 
 Witness withdrew, and the house ad- 
 journed at four o'clock. 
 
 SATfJRDAY, October 21. 
 The house met at ten, and Mr. 
 Cooper, the clerk, immediately pro- 
 ceeded to call over the names of the 
 peers. While engaged in this duty, 
 a New Zealander, with his face tat- 
 tooed, in the most fashionable style of 
 his own country, appeared below the 
 bar. The appearance of this singularly 
 looking character excited the curiosity 
 of peers and strangers to such a degree, 
 that all other objects were forgotten ; 
 and it was not till the Lord Chancellor 
 called back the attention of the peers 
 to their clerk, that order was restored. 
 The northern visitor wan afterwards 
 accommodated with a place in the box 
 of^lr Thomas Tyrwhitt. 
 
 LIEUTENANT HOVVNAA!. 
 Lord LAUDKR!)ALl<: moved, that 
 Lieut, Flownam should be called upon 
 t«) produce bis diploma a? Knight of 
 St. Caroline, to which he alluded in 
 his evidence. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM stated that Mr. 
 Hownatu had not yet arrived, but that 
 he would be in attendance in the course 
 of an hour. 
 
 In a few minutes, Mr. Brougham 
 presented at the bar the diploma in 
 question, which had been in the cus- 
 tody of Mr. Vizard. It was a piece of 
 parchment, appended to a seal, with 
 green silk strings. 
 
 At the suggestion of Earl LAUDER- 
 DALE, it was ordered that Mr. How- 
 nam himself should present this docu- 
 ment. 
 
 MR. POWELL. 
 The Marquis of LANSDOWN 
 moved, that Mr, Powell should be 
 callect to the bar to deliver in the papers 
 ordered by the house to be submitted 
 to the secret committee. 
 
 Mr. Powell having appeared at the 
 bar, he delivered in the papers ac- 
 cordingly, accompanied with a decla- 
 ration, that the objection which he had 
 made to the presenting these docu-^ 
 ments when before called for, did not 
 arise from any feeling personal to him- 
 self. 
 
 The Marquis^ of LANSDOWN 
 wished to ask Mr. Powell whether these 
 papers contained all the house had re- 
 quired ? 
 
 Lord LAUDERDALE said, that the 
 secret committee had power to inquire 
 into the fact. 
 
 The Marquis of LANSDOWNE con- 
 sidered that it was competent to him 
 to put this question. 
 
 Earl LIVERPOOL said that the 
 order of the house had been peremp- 
 tory, and it was to be presumed Mr. 
 Powell had attended lo that order. 
 
 Earl DARNLEY thought the house 
 had a right to examine the witness, as 
 he was at their bar. 
 
 Earl GREY said, there was no doubt 
 of the right of the house ; but as a 
 certain duty had been, deputed to their 
 stcret committee, he thought the right 
 might be waved. 
 
 The Marquis of LANSDOWN then 
 moved that Mr. Powell should be 
 sworn, and that he should be directed 
 to attend the house at its adjourn- 
 ment. 
 
 Mr. Powell was sworn aecordiog^y. 
 
310 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 aud ordered to attend at the time men- 
 tioued. 
 
 TWENTY-SIXTH WITNESS. 
 TOMASO LAGO MAGGIORI was 
 
 theu called to liie bar and examiuedby 
 Mr. WILDE: — I live near ihe town 
 (if Comu. I i^nt a ti&hertuau. I was 
 employed as a buatinati to her royal 
 highness the Princess of Wales. I 
 know Guiseppi Ruiiielli. He was a 
 fisherman like myself. I have been in 
 a boat at the same lime with the 
 princess aud Bergarai. 1 never saw 
 either of those persons kiss the other. 
 Her royal highness sat on tii« left of 
 the boat. I sat in such a situation as 
 to see her royal hrghuess. The boat 
 had lights in it. I sat in such a situa- 
 tion that if they had kissed I must have 
 seen it. 
 
 Cross-examiued by the SOLICITOR- 
 GENERAL : — I have conducted her 
 r««yal highness and Bergarai from 
 Como to her Villa several times ; 1 
 cannot say precisely how many times ; 
 it might be more than twenty ti«fies. 
 On the occasions when I so conducted 
 her royal highness from Como to her 
 Villa, there were generally ton boat- 
 men ; it was after the tl>eatre was 
 over that I was in the habit of con- 
 duetiug her royal highness to her Villa. 
 It was at night. The part of the boat 
 ofi which her royal highness sat was 
 separated from that in which the boat- 
 men sat. The boat was divided in the 
 middle — on one side of ihe division the 
 boatmen sat ; on the other side her 
 royal highness and Bergami. There 
 Tvere also some of the boatmen behiud 
 her royal highness and Bergami. The 
 place in which her royal highness sat, 
 was covered at the top, nnd had glasses 
 at the Slides. There was a curtain in 
 front, and none behind, because there 
 were glasses. There were glasses be- 
 fore as well as behind. For the most 
 part, besides her royal highness and 
 Bergami, vhere were a m^agistrate of 
 Como and a musician with her royal 
 fatgihuess and Bergami. Her royal 
 bigbness and Bergami never went 
 alone — the boat was ad ways full of 
 gentlemen ; I will swear this. The 
 magistrate and the rausicMiH lived att 
 Como, and I caimot say Uhey always 
 accompanied her royal higbDess ; but 
 for the most part there were gentlemen 
 in the boat. I came over to this 
 country with 12 or 13 or 14 others. I 
 do not kttov^ bow many there were. J 
 
 saw count Vassal! at Milan. He did 
 not examine me us to the evidence 1 
 was to give. It wa* the advocate Co- 
 daizi that examined me at Milan. He 
 wrote down what 1 said. I swore to 
 the truth of it. C daizi made me swear 
 to the truth of it tviice. I told a dif- 
 ferent story each time. I eannot say 
 I was sworn three times, because I am 
 in doubt. When 1 was sworn there 
 was an Engluh gentleman present. 
 I do nut know his name. He was pre- 
 sent each time I was sworn. I was 
 not paid any thing the first time i was 
 sworn. I have received three francs 
 of 26 Italian livres each. This was on 
 ray departure from Milan to ctime 
 here. I received nothing before that, 
 nor since. If they give me any thing 
 more I will take it. My own will has 
 brought me here. If they give me any 
 thing I will accept it ; if not 1 shall go 
 without. I have a wife and children. 
 One livre per day is paid to my wife, 
 aud half a livre a day to my children : 
 I have four children. Two Napoleons 
 a day were fixed for my expenses here. 
 1 received no money except the francs 
 I have mentioned. Codaizi fixed that 
 we were to have two Napoleons a day, 
 but w« have received nothing. When 
 I saw Codatzi when the business was 
 going on, I did not see a young man 
 with one eye (the clerk who was exa- 
 mined on Tuesday, Pomarti). I live 
 now five or six miles from London 
 (Hammersmith). I have not been to 
 see the house of her majesty. We all 
 live in the same house, and dine and 
 breakfast, and talk together. I have 
 t>n\y seen Vassali there once. 
 
 Re-examined by Mr. WILDE— -We 
 reckon 13 francs is a livre. There are 
 six livres and a half of Milan to a 
 Napoleon. The government of my 
 country refused me a passport until 
 an allowance was made to my family. 
 It was ordered to be done by the go- 
 vernm^vt. The cre^v in the boat sat 
 in the same part of the b»)at with me. 
 Bergami foi the most part sat on the 
 right &>de of the boat. The princess 
 sat on the left side. I mean by being 
 sworn as I have already mentioned, 
 that I have been sworn on the part of 
 the princess, touching her conduct. 
 What I did was this : I deposed to all 
 those things that I was asked about— 
 what I had Seen and observed respect- 
 ing tbe princess. When I first saw 
 Codatai, the advocate, I made a depo- 
 sition of what I bad observed when in 
 
A. OLIVIER A. 
 
 311 
 
 the princess's service. \ neither kissed 
 a book nor a cross. When 1 took the 
 oath the advocate told me to swear 
 the truth, and tell nothing but the 
 truth. 
 
 Examined by the SOLICITOR-GE- 
 NERAL, through the Lord Chancellor, 
 after some discussion as to the propriety 
 of the question , and. the chancellor sug- 
 gesting that the house would not be 
 lectured by the learned solicitor. I 
 did not take an oath before any tri- 
 bunal in Milan. 
 
 Examined by the peers. Lord EL- 
 LENBOROUGH.— The rowers in the 
 boat stood with their faces towards 
 the head of the boat. There were six 
 rowers on that side of the boat towards 
 the head of the boat. There were four 
 rowers on the other side. I pulled the 
 fourth oar coming from the head of the 
 boat. That nearest the carriage. Ru- 
 gielli pulled the second oar from the 
 stern, close to the carriage. 
 pi Lord LAUDERDALE.— I have no 
 default in my sight, but two years ago 
 I was ill. Upon all these occasions I 
 sal in the same position when I rowed 
 in the boat. I cannot say whether 
 Rugielli was in the boat rowing the 
 princess from the theatre at any time 
 that I was not there. To aquestion by 
 Lord Catchcart — I could not see over 
 the awning; it was so high. (The in- 
 terpreter showed the height by holding 
 his hand aUout a yard above the bar.) 
 To a question by the Marquis of Buck- 
 ingham — The Napoleons were about 
 six livres and a half of our money. 
 Here the examination of this witness 
 closed. 
 
 The next witness was the Chevalier 
 Carlo Vassal! ; he has very much the 
 appearance of a gentleman. He wears 
 large mustachios, and hus quite the 
 air of a military man. 
 
 Examined by Mr. DENMAN.— I 
 am a catholic, and a native of Milan. 
 I speak a little English. I have now 
 the honour of being equerry to the 
 queen of England. I am a military 
 man by profession. The last time I 
 «eryed in the army I held the rank of 
 captain in the dragoons of the royal 
 Italian guard. I first became acquainted 
 with her royal highness the Princess of 
 Wales, at Tourano, at the villa of ge- 
 neral Pino. I had also the honour of 
 seeing the princess at the house of ge- 
 neral Pino, at Milan. I dined there 
 with her royal highness. If I remem- 
 ber well, this was in (be ood of tht 
 
 year 1816, or the beginning of 1817. 
 I knew Bergamit He was at general 
 Pino*s the same time that I was there. 
 Bergami dined with general Pino then. 
 Her royal highness at that time invited 
 me to accompany heron a journey from 
 Milan to Turin. I accompanied her 
 royal highness from Milan to Turin. 
 I afterwards accompauied the princess 
 in her tour to Germany. Before we 
 set out, her royal highness employed 
 me in her household. 1 left Milan per- 
 forming the office of vice-equerr}^ I 
 continued in her royal highness's ser- 
 vice till she went to Caprini. That was 
 I think in 1818. I believe it was in 
 that year, but I do not remember ex- 
 actly the time of the year. I subse- 
 quently entered her royal highness's 
 service, of a courier, and continued ia 
 that situation as far as St. Omer*?. Ber- 
 gami was in her royal highness's ser- 
 vice at the time that I was in it. He 
 was in the employment of a courier. 
 He had also something to do in the 
 household. He had the direction of 
 the house. It was part of his duty, I 
 believe, to hire the servants and (o dis- 
 miss them. I have seen Bergami and 
 the princess walking together at dif- 
 ferent times. I saw them sometimes 
 walking alone ; getting out from the 
 garden under the portico. I saw them 
 riding out together in a carriage, with 
 others. I never saw them walking or 
 riding together without attendance. 
 When I said they were walking alone 
 together, getting out from the garden 
 under the portico, I did not mean by 
 solo— alone, for I was at a little dis- 
 tance from them. Bergami was received 
 at the tables of the families of dis- 
 tinction in the neighbourhood of Pe- 
 saro. I was with the princess at Mu- 
 nich. I remember when her royal 
 highness and suite dined with the king 
 of Bavaria. Bergami dined at the 
 king's table. I saw civilities passing 
 between the king of Bavaria and Ber- 
 gami. He treated Bergami with the 
 greatest affability. Bergami after this 
 received a present from the king. It 
 was a gold snuff box, surrounded with 
 brilliants* The man who brought it to 
 Milan, shewed it to me beforehand. 
 He afterwards told me he delivered it 
 to Bergami. I saw it after this in the 
 possession of Bergami. The initials 
 M.J. are on it. These initials signify 
 Maximilian JosiJ!ph. There was no 
 crown on it* I was at the Barona 
 with the princeis when certaifi ball3 
 
812 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 were given. I believe they continued ' 
 about six weeks. It was at the time of | 
 the (Carnival these balls were gi'ven for \ 
 the amuseinent of the suite of her 
 royal higbness. It would be difficult 
 for me to say the precise number that 
 attended them, butl should think about 
 tifty. This numbfU- includes the prin- 
 cess's suite, as well as the company that 
 came. I recollect the neighbouring 
 gently attended upon those occasions. 
 The family of t'ne tenant of (he Barona 
 was there. The father and mother 
 came coustantly wiih the children. I 
 saw the prefect Thomasia there, and 
 the baron Cavaletti, and also a cleri- 
 cal gentleman, the curate of the Ba- 
 rona. The princess frequently enter- 
 tained company to dinner on these oc- 
 casions. The families of the Prefect 
 i^omasia and the baron Cavaletti were 
 often there upon these occasions with 
 their wives. I do not remember that 
 their daughters were present. After 
 dinner, in the evening, her royal high- 
 ness and the company went into the 
 place where the dance was. They re- 
 mained for some time, and then went 
 into an adjoining room to play. They 
 played in this room at cards, chess, 
 and sometimes they played on the piano. 
 The princess occasionally joined in 
 the danee. She danced sometimes. 
 The conduct of the persons collected 
 on these occasions was most regular. 
 I never saw any thing indecent or im- 
 proper in their conduct upon these oc- 
 casions. I was at Carlsruhe with her 
 royal highness. I remember we ar- 
 rived there on the 25ih of March, I 
 believe in the year 1818. We arrived 
 about noon. On the day of oar arri- 
 val the princess dined at the Mars:ra- 
 vine's ; Bergami and the countess Oldi 
 also dined there. We supped on the 
 same evening at the grand duke's. I 
 remember her royal highness dined the 
 second day at the grand dukes'. Ber- 
 gami and the countess of Oldi dined 
 there upon that occasion. Bergami and 
 the countess did not remain the whole 
 of the afternoon. Bergami complained 
 of a head-ache on the day we dined at 
 the grand duke's, and his sister accom- 
 panied him to the inn, in the evening. 
 Her royal highness did not go then. 
 She remained with the grand duchess. 
 I also remained, and came away with 
 her royal highness late in the evening. 
 After Bergami and the countess went 
 home from the grand duke's, the com- 
 pany there amused themselves singing. 
 
 1 sang with the grand duchess. Ou 
 the next day her royal hig-hncss dined 
 at the Margravine's — I was tliere also. 
 In the evening we went to t!ie theatre, 
 and then to supper at the grand duke'-;. 
 Her royal highness and sui(e were at 
 the dinner and the play. On the fourth 
 day we went to Badco. We dined at 
 the inn there. From Baden to Carl- 
 shrue is, I believe, about four hours 
 ride. On the day after our arrival at 
 Baden, her royal highness and suite 
 dined at the Margravine's. We slept 
 at Baden that night, and dined next 
 day at the Margravine's. 'J'hey passed 
 the evening in amusement, in society. 
 — We retired to the inn about ten 
 o'clock. On t:ie following day we 
 dined at the grand duke's, and in the 
 evening set out after taking a little re- 
 freshment at home. I recollect in the 
 course of that journey going with Ber- 
 gami from Inspruck to Charnit.z about 
 a passport. We set out about twelve 
 at noon, and lelurned to Inspruck be^ 
 tween two and three in the morning. 
 On our return I went to her royal higb- 
 ness's room. She was then sitting on 
 the bed, half i>ing. 
 
 ilow was her royal highness dressed 
 upon that occasion — She was covered 
 with a shawl. 
 
 Did any other person go into the 
 room besides yourself? — Yes. 
 
 Who were they? — Bergami, then 
 Schiavini, and afterwards the countess 
 of Oldi, who came out of her own 
 room. 
 
 Was the countess of Oldi's room ad- 
 joining to that of her royal Highnesb's? 
 — It was. 
 
 Did you see the little Victoriae that 
 morning ? — I did. 
 
 Where was she ? — She was sitting on 
 the bed with her royal highness, when 
 I returned from Inspruck. 
 
 Was there any other person ii the 
 room, besides those whom you have 
 mentioned ! — M. De Mont was in the 
 room also. 
 
 Was she dfessed ?— She was. 
 
 In the course of the morning after 
 your return from Inspruck, did an 
 oflScer call a few moments after your 
 arrival? — There did. 
 
 Who spoke to him ? — ^I spoke to bim/ 
 
 Did you afterwards, in the course of 
 that morning, return frequently to her 
 royal highness's room ? — I did often. 
 
 For what purpose ? — Just to give an 
 account who arrived ; then to see 
 whether any thing was wanting ; and 
 
C. V ASS ALL 
 
 3fe 
 
 lastly, lo give lipr royal highness an ac- 
 cminl of the wciilhei, and <hat they 
 •were clearing the roads of the snow. 
 
 Were her royal highness's suite 
 makinjc preparations to set out for 
 Charnitz that morning ? — We remained 
 up the whole night 'making prepara- 
 tions. 
 
 In the Course of these preparations, 
 did you see other of her royal high- 
 ness's sui::e in her room ? — ^Those I men- 
 tioned, and others of her suite, were 
 there from time to time. 
 
 VV^ere there beds enough for the 
 whole suite?— There were straw beds; 
 
 Where were they placed? — Below 
 stairs, and in the corridore. 
 
 The corridore into which the room 
 of jicr royal highnesses opened i — Yes. 
 
 Did you see any person lying on these 
 straw beds in the corridore!— I saw no 
 person lying there, for they got up 
 when we arrived. 
 
 At what time did you set out from 
 Churnilz; did the preparations for set- 
 ting out last lill daybreak ? — The pre- 
 parations did not last till that time, for 
 we had engaged horses the day before. 
 
 While llicse preparations were going 
 forward, did you frequently see Ber- 
 gami ? — Yes, frequently. 
 
 Did you upon tliat occasioM see him 
 undres,<ed at any time ? — I did not. 
 
 Where did you see him? — In dif- 
 ferent places. I saw him in the kitch- 
 en, on the stair-case, at the door, and 
 at tlie room of her royal higl.ness. 
 
 Do you remember having been at 
 Trieste in the course of that tour ?— I do. 
 
 How long did \\>x royal highness 
 remain at Trieste?— A day and a half. 
 
 From Trieste where did you go?— 
 We went to Venice. . , - 
 
 Were you eyer at Rome ivith her 
 royal highness ?— Yes, frequently. 
 
 Do you remember the first time when 
 slu; went fr in Rome to Senegaglia? 
 1 do : I ac( onipanicd her. 
 
 How long did the journey last ?— 
 About three days ; I cannot say;precise- 
 
 Do you remember how her royal 
 highness travelled ?— I remember well. 
 It was an Knglish landaulet. 
 
 Who travelled with her royal hi'^h- 
 u*s8 ?— The couutess of Oldi, Bergauii, 
 and the Utile Victoriue. 
 
 Do you remember who travelled 
 upon that journey as courier?—! saw 
 
 li^i *"'"*' ^^ liorsei,aek, as courier. 
 
 Did you see Saechi on horseback 
 during that journey ?— 1 did ^ot. 
 
 40 
 
 State the circunvstaneei under which 
 Carlo Forti was hired — where was he 
 first hii-ed?— lie began his service at 
 Rome provisionally at Loretto to go to 
 Rome with dispatches, as he knew 
 Rome. 
 
 Was Saechi a courier at Loretto?-^ 
 He was. 
 
 Was he sent to Rome with any dis- 
 patches ? — 1 do not know that he was 
 sent to Rome with any dispatches. 
 
 Do you know any reason why he was 
 not sent ? — I believe they spared him 
 because he was tired. 
 
 Bergami had not a padapenello 
 {a sort of carriage), nor was there one 
 belonging to any of the suite, except, 
 I believe, that of Lewis Bergami. 1 
 never saw her royal highness the prin- 
 cess ride in any such vehicle. 1 re- 
 member the dance by the man named 
 Mahomet. 1 have often seen him 
 dance, and I believe her royal high- 
 ness the princess sometimes saw him 
 from the window, but there never was 
 the smallest impropriety in any thing 
 which Mahomet did with his dress. It 
 was a simple dance, and nothing what- 
 ever in it indecent. At Pesaro the 
 princess visited persons of quality, and 
 was in the habit of receiving their 
 visits. She received frequently the 
 pope's legate at Pesaro, and the noble 
 family of Gandolfi, besides the mar- 
 quess of Andalgi, and other personages 
 of rank. Bergami visited with all these 
 families, not only when the pr'ncess 
 went, but when he was not in attend- 
 ance upon her royal highness. I hav.e 
 ^ been with thein many times when the 
 ; princess was not theie, as well as whe^ 
 she was. At Rome dlso the princess 
 visited and was yisitcd by the first fa- 
 milies of djstinc; ion. 
 
 I wish to ask you whether, at any or 
 all the times you have seen the pnn- 
 cess and J5ergami together, you ever 
 witnessed the smallest impropriety 
 from one to the other ? — ^ he witness, 
 in a loud tone, and with great em- 
 phasis, exclaimed, " Never." 
 
 His remaining answers in his exami- 
 nation in chief, were — I have served in 
 the army fromthe year 1805 to the year 
 1815, and wear the honour of the Order 
 of the Iron Crown, which was pre^ 
 sented to me on my return from the 
 Russian ea^npain. 
 
 Cross-examined by the ATTORNEY- 
 GENERAL.— My rank in the army 
 was that of a simple soldier, in the 1st 
 company of the guard of honou^ yf the 
 
314 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 viceroy of Italy. The first time I was 
 in the company of her rpyal highness 
 the princess, was at general Piuo's 
 country-house. It whs after her royal 
 highness's return from her long voyage, 
 and I l)elieve in the year 1817. I saw 
 the princess also at the villa, and was 
 invited to her parties at Turin, and at 
 the Barona, by the princess herself. 
 1 fir t entered her service as sub- 
 equerry, without a salary, and after- 
 wards, when mad' an equerry, had an 
 annual stipend of 200 louis. " i did not 
 quit her royal highness's service from 
 that time, which was in 1817 or 1818, 
 until I received a letter of dismissal at 
 St. Omer's. 1 was absent on a former 
 occasion, on leave, upon my own fa- 
 mily affairs, for perhaps near a year, 
 but I did not quit the se vice, for 1 
 rejoined afterwards by an order by 
 letter. This letter was sent from the 
 Villa Vittoria, at Pesaro, I [think in 
 1819. I reioiued, and from that time 
 I did not leave the princess until her 
 arrival at St. Omer's. 1 most certainly 
 accompanied her royal highness to 
 Munich, and Bergami dined with the 
 princess there ; but how often I cannot 
 tell. The hrst day we dined at the 
 inn, the second day I believe with the 
 king; the third day I cannot precisely 
 tell; nor can I say where her royal 
 highness dined every day, nor how she 
 spent the fourth evening after her ar- 
 rival at Munich. Some evenings were 
 spent at the king's, some at prince I 
 Beauharnois'g ; but precisely I cannot' 
 say how the respective days were spent. ! 
 Twice, I think, with the king, and i 
 twice at the same table with his ma- 
 jesty. They went from Munich to Nu- 
 remburg, and from thence 1 cannot 
 say with certainty. On that tour, we 
 were, I should suppose, about three 
 months. From the 25th to the 30th 
 of March, we were at Carlsrhue, or six 
 days, including the days of arrival and 
 departure. We set out from it, I remem 
 ber, after dinner. The margravine's 
 palace was nearer to the inn than that 
 of the grand duke's. The dinner hour 
 at Carlsrhue was about three o'clock and 
 we sat at table about an hour and a 
 half. The theatre began at half-past five 
 o'clock; and the converzationes, for 
 which there wa-> no fixed hour, but about 
 seven or eight o'clock in general. The 
 first day we dined at Carlsrhue was at 
 the margravine's, and Bergami was 
 there [certainly on that day. The se- 
 cond day with the grand duke, and 
 Bergami was th^e also : he dined every 
 
 day in the company of the princess at 
 C irlsrhue. He (Bergami) was taken 
 ill on lihe second day, when he went 
 from the t'ompany to the inn with the 
 countess of Oldi soon after dinner; he 
 did not rejoin the party that eveninj 
 till they reiurued home at seven or 
 eight o'clock. The reason I f annot tell 
 the particular phces where 1 dined at 
 Munich as well as at Carlsrhue, is 
 merely because I recollect the ou« 
 thing better than another. A man is 
 often aide to recollect the occurrences 
 of one time better than another, and 
 such is the case with me respecting 
 what pass'-d at these places. 
 
 AVhen did you set out from Charoitz? 
 •!— Early in the morning. 
 
 Was it broad day-light.''— -No, it was 
 not: it wus only day-break; but you 
 could see pla nly enough. 
 
 What were the preparations for the 
 journey you alluded to, which carried 
 >ou on that night backwards and for- 
 wards to the princess's room ? — 1 went 
 and so did the rest, backwards and 
 forwards to tell the princess that the 
 country people had executed the orders 
 of the police in clearing away the 
 snow to make the roads passable; 
 sometimes I went to take her some- 
 thing to eat, sometimes to trauquilize 
 her royal highness's mind respecting 
 the clearing away of the snow, and 
 sometimes to ask the princess if she' 
 wanted an> thing. 
 
 Was Bergami lying down at rest, or 
 where was he during this time ? — He 
 was, as 1 was, I believe, engaged in 
 going up and down to give assistance. 
 
 Did not the servants take in the re- 
 freshments ? — Yes, they did ; but I 
 also attended, for it was proper that a 
 person of her royal highness's quality 
 should have more attendance than such 
 an inn afforded. 
 
 What was the distance of the journey 
 you liad taken that day between Char« 
 nitz and Inspruck ? — 1 really do not 
 know the distance exactly. 
 
 State about what the distance wag ?. 
 I can only recollect it was four or five 
 hours journey. 
 
 How did Bergami and you travel 
 that day from Charnitz to Inspruck } 
 We travelled the first part in a sledge, 
 and afterwards in a coach. 
 
 Then were you not fatigued after 
 such a journey ? — Not particularly so ; 
 I had travelled a great deal, but 1 can- 
 not say that I was particularly fatigued. 
 
 Did ycu stop Isug in the day at In-* 
 spruck after your arrival there .'—Not 
 
C# V ASS Ail. 
 
 315 
 
 lifter, I tlvink, ihan about »« hour, 
 merely to rectify the mistake about 
 tbe passports. 
 
 Did voulie down to rest at Inspruck? 
 No. I did not. 
 
 Then do you mean to swear, you 
 took no rest on the ni2:ht when you 
 returned to where you left the princess, 
 end before you started on the journey 
 "with her at day-break on the following 
 morning ? No, 1 did not. 
 
 Your faiijue then did not so over- 
 come you as to make you require 
 sleep ? No: to a man accustomed, as 
 I wa^, to the duty of campaigns, that 
 faiisrue wa"; not too powerful. 
 
 Do you mean to swear then that you 
 took 110 rest that night .> I swear I 
 took no rest then. 
 
 Do you mean also to swear that 
 Bergami took no rest on that night ? 
 1 did not see him take any. I did not 
 believe he did. 
 
 And you mean positively to swear 
 that you took no rest yourself on that 
 mzhX ? 1 did not. 
 
 It was very hot weather going from 
 Rome on that day. In the first car- 
 riage travelled her royal highness, the 
 countess Oldi, Bergami,and Victorine ; 
 in the second Lieut. Hownam, De 
 Mont, Brunelli, and Miuelli ; in the 
 third Mr. Austin, myself, and the ser- 
 vant on the box ; in the fourth carriage 
 I believe there wer« servants. Louis 
 Bergami was not on that journey, nor 
 Camera, as I believe, but there was 
 Solyman, and a Greek servant, and 
 another whose name I do not recollect. 
 I do not recollect a person being sent 
 oflF from Caligni to order horses on the 
 journey. I dou*t know precisely at 
 what place we arrived on the third 
 morning, but we arrived st Senegaglia 
 on the 4th day. I don't remember 
 precisely how long we stopped at Cano, 
 but 1 think it was about an hour or 
 t-vo. It was by day, but I cannot 
 precisely remember the hour. I re- 
 member visiting a friend at Como. T 
 did not send Forti before to apprize 
 my friend of our coming ; but I desired 
 him, if be arrived before us, to tell my 
 friends 1 was coming ; but I believe 
 we arrived a few minutes after him. 
 I do not remember seeing Sacchi at 
 Como. I will swear I do not remember 
 seeing bira there. I know a place 
 called Carle. I remember calling 
 there on our way to Senegaglia ; we 
 stopped there to take refreshments. 
 I remember something wai taken, but 
 
 I do not recollect whether hot or cold. 
 I do not know what any body el«e 
 took. I took sometliing, but I <lon't 
 know now whether hot or cold. 1 took 
 it in the carriage. It was brought to 
 me by a servant. I don't know wbj 
 servant. I do not remember well at 
 present, but I swear I do not know 
 whether it was Saccbi or not. T repeat 
 as;ain, that I can swear he was not 
 there. I remember Wm. Austin was 
 there, but 1 do not remember Sacchi 
 coming to speak to him. 1 will not 
 swear that I did not see Sacchi in the 
 cotirse of the journey, but I will swear 
 F do not remember having seen him. 
 I will not venture to swear he was not 
 there. But I do not remember to have 
 seen him if he was there. The coun- 
 tess of Oldi during the whole of ihat 
 journey always travelled in the same 
 carriage with her royal highness. The 
 time of the day we arrived there, if I 
 am r.ot mistaken, was before dinner, 
 but I can't swear precisely; I don't 
 remember at what time we reached 
 Senegaglia, but it was three or four 
 days after we left Rome. I kncfw a 
 person named Ratti, I was on that 
 journey ; he travelled on the box of 
 one of the carriages in which the maid- 
 servants were. 1 recollect several 
 persons of rank visjtii'g the princess at 
 the Barona ; Dr, Mochetti, and the 
 curate of Barona ; 1 don't remember 
 precisely the names of any others. I 
 remember there was dancing there. 
 I danced with the rest, I know the 
 daughters of Antigina, and saw some 
 of them there ; there were other rooms 
 in the house be>ide the dancing room. 
 Her royal highness sometimes danced 
 with those persons. I know the wife 
 of Bergami, she was never at any of 
 those balls. I saw Bergami, for the 
 last time, last month, coming from 
 Barona. I saw him also at Milan and 
 at the Villa d'Este. I was frequently 
 with him at Milan and at general 
 Pino's. I applied to many persons to 
 come over here as witnesses for her 
 majesty, and they offered to come of 
 their own acconl. I have not engaged 
 to idnemnify any of them ; that w^s 
 done by the agent Henry. I made no 
 agreemei'.t ; I only executed the agree- 
 ment which was made hy Mr. Henrv, 
 at his request. The agreement was to 
 pay them ten livres per day each, for 
 the support of their families durign 
 their absence, a franc por day for each 
 of their wives, and \\9^f a franc for 
 
316 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEE^f, 
 
 each of their children ; and this agree- 
 ment was made because their pass- 
 ports would not have been signed 
 otherwise. Mr. Henry said, that the 
 laws of Edglaud would indfeinnify 
 every person for any damage they 
 might suffer. The agreement was oh 
 stamped pa'per, and the sum paid 
 down for the witness, was 3000 Milan 
 livres. 
 
 I now have no salary from her royal 
 highness. I have a pension of about 
 200 louis a year, about 4000 or .5000 
 francs. The family of my father is at 
 Milan. My wife is iu London, at 
 Sabloniere's hotel. I believe I shall 
 be paid by the government for coming 
 here as a witness for her majesty. I 
 have not yet received any money. I 
 have not even been paid for the jour- 
 ney. When 1 went to Milan, I took 
 inohey with me. I do not travel Auth- 
 6ut money. 1 received £lOOftom Mr. 
 Coutts to go to Milan. The order to 
 receive this money was given to me 
 by her majesty. I did not take a 
 letter of credit to Milan. I received 
 money from Mr. Marietti at Milan, by 
 the order of Mr. Henry ; 52,000 livre's 
 of Milan. That is all I received at 
 Milan. 1 received something at Ve- 
 nice—I believe 100 Na] oleons. I 
 went to Venice with the son of Mr. 
 Wood, to acquire some knowledge to 
 give respecting a person which it was 
 necessary for me to know. Mr. Wood 
 went with me from here to Milan ; 
 While in Italy 1 travelled with Mr. 
 Wood, a courier, and my servant. 
 While abroad 1 travelled also with Mr. 
 Maoui. Nobody else, whom I re- 
 roe^nber. Besides Venice and Pesaro I 
 travelled to Rome. I never went to 
 Switzerland. From Rome I returned 
 to Milan. I am a Milanese. 1 have 
 some funds. of my own, besides^what I 
 derive from the queen. 
 
 Examined by the peers :— By Earl 
 LIVERPOOL.-I do not know that 
 any person slept in her royal high- 
 ness's room at Charnitz ; as far as 1 
 know nobody slept there. 
 
 By Earl GREY.—Cailo Forti tra- 
 velled with the suite of her royal high- 
 ness from Milan lo Loretlo ; and at 
 Loretto he was dispatched aCs any «)ther 
 courier, who might have been acci- 
 dentally engaged. He went from Lo- 
 retto to Rome at the same time wiih 
 her royal highness. On the second 
 nigUt of her majcsty'^s residence at 
 
 Carlshrue, she returned to the inn 
 betwefeii seven and eight. 
 
 By Lord CALTHORPE.— When I 
 returned from luspruck to Charuit^, I 
 went immediately to her royal high- 
 ness's room. Bergami was with me. 
 From the moment of our arrival at 
 Charnitz, continual preparations Were 
 going on for. the continuance of the 
 journey. I saw only one bed in her 
 royal highness's room at Charnitz. 
 On my arrival at Charnitz from lu- 
 spruck, 1 had been without rest from 
 noon till the next morning. I do not 
 recollect any mattress on the floor «f 
 her royal highness's room. There was 
 not one. I recollect Mahomet per- 
 forming his dance at the Villa d'l-lsfe. 
 I believe thai the princess was at the 
 window. 1 do not recollect any lady 
 of distinction in my country being pre- 
 sent at this dance. I do not kni>w 
 that tliat dance is kuuwn by any par- 
 ticular name. Mahomet wasnot among 
 the servants that were dismissed by 
 her royal highness at St. Omer's, ; 
 he had been dismissed three years 
 before. 
 
 By Lord CATHCART : — The 
 queen of Bavaria dined at the table 
 with the Princess of Wales at Munich. 
 
 By Earl LAUDERDALE.— 1 saw 
 the countess of Oldi a fortnight ago, 
 when I went to fetch her at Dover. 
 I saVv her fir-it about three years ago. 
 She is now iu London. 1 d© not know 
 where Carlini is. 
 
 Questioned at the request of Mr. 
 Brouiiham. — There was nothing in the 
 dance of Mahomet, in my opinion, 
 which any lady of distinction and cha- 
 racter might not have witnessed. It 
 was ridiculous, and no more. There 
 was nothing improper or indecent in it. 
 
 When her royal highness returned 
 the second night at Carlsrhue between 
 7 and B, to the inn, 1 accompanied her. 
 I accompanied her into the saloon. 
 Bergami and his sister, and another 
 person can>e to her. Bergami wore a 
 uniform. 1 cannot remember how her 
 royal highness was dressed. Bergami 
 accompanied her royal highness to the 
 margravine's. 
 
 Examined by Lord ROSEBERRY— 
 The princess remained iu the saloon 
 the whole time till she went to the 
 margravine's. 
 
 The witness wi'hdrew. 
 
 Mr. BROUGUAM now addressed 
 tiidr lordships ou a subject, which he 
 
A. VASSALI. 
 
 317 
 
 Tionsidcred of tho greatest importance 
 to the situation in which he was 
 placed. He had now to submit to their 
 lordships, that he found himself reduced 
 to the necessity of recurring to the de- 
 mand which he had made on the jus- 
 tice of their lordships at the outset of 
 the proceedins: in which they were at 
 ]>resent etifcaged — he alluded to the de- 
 fence of the queen. Their lordships 
 would recollect that at the beginnitij; 
 of the defence Ihey had alluded to the 
 steps which they had taken in sendiu!^ 
 to Carls hue to procure from them the 
 attendance of a person of great distinc- 
 tion as a witness on the part of the 
 queen — a witness who, he would not 
 hesitate to say, was not only of the 
 hi«jhest, but of every importance to her 
 majesty's case — a witness who was not 
 only to ncfifative the testimony Of Kress, 
 but who was to give tlie most decided 
 answer to the whole principle of this 
 bill. Hsr majesty had been described 
 as a person given to low habits, as a 
 person frequenting base company, and 
 ucglectiug the society of her equals. 
 The witness lo whom he alluded would 
 have gix'CU a Hat contradiction to these 
 calumnies. He would have proved 
 that she frequented the courts of her 
 
 country as a witness in behalf of the 
 queen. In the application he suc- 
 ceeded, but all at once, notwithstand- 
 ing the professed willingness of that 
 individual, when first applied to by 
 Mr. Leman to appear in behalf of her 
 majesty, he declined coming, and 
 urged as a reason, a most unexpected 
 and extraordinary plea. He was, in 
 fact, suddenly seized with illness, a 
 fever, he believed, as if the fever of 
 Rastelli had crossed the Alps; and de- 
 clared from the effects of that indisposi- 
 tion, that he could not proceed to Eng- 
 land. He again said, that the king's 
 ministers had used their utmost endea- 
 vours to procure the attendance of this 
 man ; but as if acting under the in- 
 tluence of an opinion that he would 
 best please some other person or per- 
 sons by not coming, he had thought 
 proper to stay away. The learned 
 counsel then proceeded to say, that 
 with this statement, he threw himself 
 upon their lordship's indulgence. He 
 trusted they would not now, for the flrst 
 time, proceed upon so new and mon- 
 strous a principle, as that a person ac- 
 cused of nine or ten charges, havins: 
 cora])letely refuted seven or eight, antl 
 shewing how iha had been prevented 
 
 own blood and relations, by whom lier- from making the same answer to the 
 
 self and her suite had been received 
 with every mark of distinction. He 
 would Imve proved that she had actually 
 taken steps to obtain a palace amixlst 
 these her serene relations, andthatshe 
 was not skulking from thnt society of 
 which she was calculated to be the life 
 and oraani'int If he had established 
 this proof, he knew not, that he need 
 have gwne any further ; mdeed he anti- 
 cipated that their lordships would have 
 agreed With him in thinking that he 
 ha4 given a coiljplete and decisive an- 
 swer to this most eittraordinary and 
 disgraceful proceeding. He was still, 
 however, deprived of this ma-tefial wit- 
 ness, and he would state to their lord- 
 ships the circumstances under whieh 
 ke had been withheld. He thought it 
 right ou theoccasion to statse Uiat no 
 blame whatever Was in*jmtablc to l*is 
 majesty's gorernment. Every thing 
 had been doiie on their part calculated 
 to promote his views, but in vain. 
 They had written to th«ir minister at 
 Carlsrhue, directing that he shou'd 
 make application to Mr. Bursleatj, the 
 Miiuiater of the grand dnlce of Baden, 
 for perttiission for the chamberlain of 
 tii«tiUu3triuas>p<;rson t)o eomc to this 
 
 rest, should be considered as guilty. 
 If this wiere the principle upon which 
 the house was prepared to act, it would 
 be the first time since justice was 
 known, that a person situated as the 
 queen was, should be held guilty till 
 she could pl-ove herself innocent. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL concurred 
 in what had been stated by the learned 
 counsel at the bar, that in this case his 
 majesty's government had done all in 
 their power to procure the attendance 
 of the witness described. He was now 
 about to lay upon the table of the 
 house the papers relating to the im- 
 portant statement which their lordships 
 had just heard, and which he had felt 
 it his duty M (Hmnnunicate to the 
 counst^ for the queen, the moment they 
 haU been rseeeivcd. They were only 
 received on the day Iwfore, and in a few 
 h(mvs woufd be printed for their lord- 
 ship>' use. 
 
 His lortfslup tV.en hxid the papers on 
 the t^ble, an:d they were ordered to be 
 printed. 
 
 The ATTORNEYiGENEllAL asketl 
 Mr. Brouj^ham whether he meant to 
 dxW any more witnesses ? 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said, thi^t iti tfie 
 
318 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 pecnliar situation in which he was now ' 
 placed, he felt it his duty to take time 
 till Monday, to consider the course he 
 should adopt. 
 AdjtAirned. 
 
 MONDAY, October 23. 
 
 nrroRT of tfif, sfcret committf.e. 
 The F.arl of HARROWBY, with the 
 other members of the committee who 
 were appointed to investigate the papers 
 which Mere delivered in on Saturday 
 last, and also to examine Mr. Powell as 
 to points connected with them, now en- 
 tered the house, when the noble earl 
 delivered in their report, which was 
 immediately read by the iunior desk 
 «f the house. It sated, in effect, that 
 the lords to whom it had been referred 
 to inspect and verify certain sealed 
 papers, and also to examine John Allan 
 Powell, Esq. touching the same, had 
 agreed in their report. The committee 
 then proceeded to verify the same, and 
 also to compare the extracts of letters 
 "ith the originals, which extended 
 from before the 14th September till 
 after the period that Hastelli was to 
 have returned back. It appeared from 
 the letters of colonel Brown, that an 
 excessive alarm had arisen at Milan by 
 reports, not only of the maltreatment, 
 but even the murder of the witnesses 
 who had repaired to this country as 
 witnesses for the bill ; and it was 
 strongly u'ged by colonel Brown, in 
 letters of the 10th, 18th, and 54th of 
 July last, and again on the 14th of 
 August last, that the alarm of the re- 
 lations of the witnesses had much in- 
 creased in consequence of no letters 
 having been received by them. After 
 this similar reports were received from 
 colonel Brown, who stated, that it was 
 necessary to send back one of the wit- 
 nesses as a courier, if it could be done 
 in no other way, for that if was reported 
 and believed by their families, thatRas- 
 telli had lo^^t an eye, occasioned by his 
 reception on landing here; and also 
 that Sacchi had been murdered ; and 
 the terror these reports had produced 
 was lo extreme, as to deter other wit- 
 nesses from coming over. The com- 
 mittee had confined their inquiry to 
 this po nt respecting Mr. Powell's send- 
 ing Kastelli to Milan, and conceived 
 they had no right to produce such pa- 
 pers as might affect, in other points, 
 ihe important inquiry now before the 
 house. 
 Extiraets from these papers were ^ub- 
 
 joined to the report. TheRe exfradt? 
 came under two heads:— 
 
 1st. Extracts of letters from colonel 
 Brown to M^. Powell previous to the 
 14th September, when Rastel^i was dis- 
 patched back to Milan. 
 
 2nd. Extracts from colonel Brown's 
 letters to Mr. Powell : and from Mr. 
 Powell's answers to colonel Brown since 
 that period. 
 
 Under the first head, as early as the 
 10th July, colonel Brown liad written 
 to Mr. Powell, that reports were pre- 
 valent in Milan of the maltreatment of 
 the foreign witnesses. His letters of 
 the 18th and 24»h of July, and also as 
 late as the 4th August, repeated the 
 same reports, which, he stated, had 
 acquired strength from the circum- 
 stance of none of the relations having 
 received any letters, and concluding by 
 expressing his hopes that letters would 
 be speedily transmitted. Five letters, 
 written by colonel Brown to Mr. Powell 
 in the month of September, mention 
 the prevalence of similar reports. In 
 those letters it was stated by the colo- 
 nel that reports were in circulation that 
 Rastelli had himself been ill-treated 
 and lost an eye, and that Sacchi had 
 been murdered. The terror which had 
 prevailed was so extreme, that it had 
 the effect of deterring sever 1 witnesses 
 from coming to England, who had 
 before expressed their willingness to 
 come. 
 
 The committee stated to the house, 
 that, under this head, they had con- 
 fined themselves to general statements, 
 as the extracts themselves were mixed 
 up with matter that could not be re- 
 ceived in evidence, as they conceived 
 they ha i no right to countenance the 
 production of papers which would affect 
 the important inquiry before the house. 
 
 The same reason did not apply to the 
 second head, and therefore the com- 
 mittee had subjoined to their report 
 the extracts. 
 
 In the extract of a letter, dated 13th 
 September, from Mr. Powell to Col. 
 Brown (of which Rastelli was the 
 bearer), that letter stated that he had 
 returned Rastelli to colonel Brown, as 
 he might be of use to him; hut he was 
 to send him hack with all the witnesses 
 and documents in time to arrive here 
 by the 3d. of October. It also stated 
 that Mr. Powell was conscious of the 
 difficulties which colonel Brown had to 
 encounter in consequence of the re- 
 ports of the injorious treatment of the 
 
GAZZETTE DE TRIESTE. 
 
 319 
 
 witaesses, and he relied on his exer- 
 tions to get over them. In colonel 
 Brown's letter to Mr. Powell, dated 
 20th September he slates that just as 
 he was goinjj to dispatch the courier, 
 KasteHl arrived, and declared himself i 
 heartily sick of the manner in which j 
 the witnesses were contined in Eng^- 
 laod; and a subsequent letter stated ! 
 Ihat Rastelli was sick in bed. Mr. P.'s ; 
 letter to colonel Brown of 2d October, ! 
 expressed his sorrow at llastelli's un- I 
 willingDess to return, and it requires j 
 the colonel to send him back, he hav- i 
 ing received the commands of the At- | 
 toroey General to that cflfect, whether j 
 the papers entrusted to Ra«ielli were 
 verified or not. Another letter from ! 
 colonel Brown to Mr. Powell, dated I 
 October 3d, mentions that Rastelli was ! 
 seriously ill of a fever, which he at- j 
 tributed to his vomiting of blood in his j 
 pa-ssage over. A letter, dated October 
 4th, stated that Rastelli was ill of the 
 jaundice, that he dreaded the thoufl;hts 
 of ^oing by sea, and could not, without 
 imminent danger, be engaged to travel 
 in less than three weeks. 
 
 The Earl of HARROWBY then 
 moved that the report should be printed 
 for the use of the house, which motion 
 was agreed to. 
 
 DE MONT. 
 Mr. BROUGHAM expressed a de- 
 sire that this witness should be recalled. 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, 
 that Mr. Maule had understood from 
 Mr. Vizard that this witness would not 
 be wanted till 12 o'clock, and direc- 
 tions had been given that she should 
 be sent for. 
 
 GAZZI:TTE DE TRIESTE. 
 Mr. BROUGHAM now begged to 
 offer to the house a piece of evidence 
 which, in an ordinary 'trial he would 
 not have submitted. Their lord^ips 
 would recollect, that the preamble of 
 this bill had charged her majesty, 
 during her residence abroad, with con« 
 duct of the most degrading and debasing 
 character, calculated to produce scan- 
 dal to her own family and to this 
 nation — as evidence to negative this 
 assertion, he had now to produce tlii> 
 Austrian Gazette, published at Trieste, 
 in which her majesty was represented 
 as having arrived in that town on the 
 15th of April, and as having been re- 
 ceived and treated as a person of 
 splendid rank. This was followed by 
 a notification of her departure on the 
 tuccfteding day tlie tO'tb, at five la the 
 
 afternoon, accompanied with the same 
 demonstrations of respect. This state- 
 ment he apprehended would go mate- 
 rially to contradict the charges in the 
 preamble of the bill. It also confirmed 
 the statement of her having entered 
 Trieste on the one day and quilted it 
 ou the next, contrary to the statement 
 of Cuchi, who said she had remained 
 there several days. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said 
 that it was impossible his learned friend 
 could contend that this was legal evi- 
 dence. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, 
 that his learned friend knew this docu- 
 mcHt could not be received in evidence, 
 and produced it only f.,r the purpose ol' 
 making a statement of the time of her 
 majesty's arrival and departure from 
 Trieste* 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM admitted that it 
 could not be legal evidence in an ordi- 
 nary court of law ; but their lordships 
 would perceive that they were in no 
 respect acting upon the rules of an or- 
 dinary court of justice. He had no 
 opportunity of challenging a jury, 
 which in an ordinary court of justice 
 would be afforded him. He could not 
 challenge all those persons who had 
 acted npon the grand jury from subse- 
 quently sitting in judgment on this case, 
 nor could he object to the prosecutors 
 from voting in support of their own 
 charges. These were anomalies against 
 his illustrious client, which he thought 
 ought to induce the house to admit an 
 anomaly in her favour. 
 
 The question was then put as to the 
 admission of the evidence offered, and 
 it was rejected nemine dissentiente. 
 
 MR. HOWNAVl'S DIPLOMA. 
 
 Earl LAUDEllDALE moved that 
 Mr. Hownam should appear at the bar, 
 and deliver in hfs diploma as knight of 
 St. Caroline, to which allusion was 
 made on Saturday. 
 
 Mr. Hownam immediately came to 
 the bar, and delivered in the diploma, 
 which, he said, was under the seal of 
 the order. The marchese Spinetti then 
 read the diploma. 
 
 This instrument was dated at Jeru- 
 salem tho I2th of July, 1816, and ex- 
 pressed it was issued by her royal 
 tiighness as institutor of the order of 
 St. Caroline, and granted to the che- 
 valier Hownam, in compensation for 
 his fidelity in attending her. 
 
 1 he chief body of the instrument ran 
 thus : 
 
3Q0 
 
 imrP^ncE of the qxtbe!?. 
 
 " That her royal lil(;hnoss had cre- 
 mated and cons! i(u ted si new order to re- 
 compense the faithful knij^hts who had 
 the honor of accompanying her royal 
 highness on her pilgrimage to the holy 
 land. 
 
 ** 1st. This order shall be given and 
 awarded to those only who have ac- 
 companied her royal highness to Jeru- 
 salem, with the exception of the pro- 
 fessor Mochetti, who could not, being 
 •prevented by accident, accompany her 
 royal highness. 
 
 '' 2. That Colonel Bartoloino Ber- 
 gami, baron of Franchino, knight of 
 Malta, and also of the holy sepulchre 
 of Jerusalem, and equerry of her 
 royal highness, the grand master of 
 this order, and his children, male and 
 female, may succeed him, and shall 
 liave the honor to wear this order from 
 generation to generation and end to 
 end. 
 
 ** 3. The same advantage of wear- 
 ing this Order is granted to the Knight 
 of the Holy Sepulchre, Mr. William 
 Austin, and to his legitimate children, 
 who shall for ever enjoy the same. 
 
 *' 4. To Mr. Joseph Hownam, Cap- 
 tain in the Royal English Navy, and 
 Knight of the Holy Sepulchre, and in 
 the suite of her Royal Highness, it is 
 also granted to him to enjoy the same 
 Order, as a personal favor fo him." 
 
 Here the interpreter said he believed 
 that he had not expressed the literal 
 Hieaning of the instrument, for it was 
 thus : — 
 
 ** This honor shall be personal for 
 yon, Mr. Joseph Hownam, Captain in 
 the British Navy, and Knight in the 
 suite of her Royal Highness, to w^ar 
 this honor during your life ; the Cross 
 a«d Patent to be returned at yonr 
 death to the Grand Master." 
 
 " 5. The Grand Master to wear the 
 Cross of the Order round his neck, sus- 
 pended from a gold chain ; but the 
 other Knights to suspend the insignia 
 from the button-hole of the coat*" 
 
 ** 6'. The abovementiotted Order to 
 consist of a red Cross, with the motto, 
 ' Honi soit qui mal y pense^' io be worn 
 ■with a riband of lUnc and silver, and 
 to be caHed by the name of the Order 
 of St. Caroline of Jer-usalem." 
 (feigned) "CAROLINE, P.W. 
 
 ("Undersigned; « Col. 13. BERGAMI. 
 &c. &c. &c." 
 
 Directed to Joseph Honiara, Knight, 
 in the sffite of her Royal Highness the 
 jPrincess of Wales, No. 15. 
 
 The interpreter having finished (he 
 reading of the document- 
 
 The Duke of SOMERSET expressed 
 a wish that lieutenant Huvt^nam should 
 be called back, for the purpose of be- 
 ing examined again with respect to the 
 tent scene on board the polacca. 
 
 Earl GREY suggested that the best 
 time for him would be after the defence 
 had closed. 
 
 Lord HOLLAND wished to know 
 whether the expenses of this proceed- 
 ing were to be all placed under the 
 head of secret service, and to be de- 
 frayed out of that fund. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that 
 as lon^- as the investigation continued 
 strictly a secret one, the expenses were 
 to be defrayed from the secret service. 
 When it took a public character, the 
 expenses were to be provided from some 
 other fund. 
 
 Earl DARN LEY wished to know 
 whether all the expenses hitherto in- 
 curred, both by the Milan commission, 
 and the witnesses for the prosecution, 
 were included in the paper laid qpon 
 the table. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, all 
 the expenses, except that of messen- 
 gers, were included under the two heads 
 of the Milan commission, and witnesses. 
 The expense incurred by messengers 
 belonged to the crown office* 
 
 Here there wq.s a pause of some mo- 
 ments. 
 
 Mr. DENMAN said, their only ob- 
 ject in calling back the witness I)e 
 Mont, was to exawine her as to certain 
 declarations, which, if she admitted, 
 they were to have the benefit of them. 
 If she denied any such declarations, 
 they were prepared to prove that slie 
 had uttered them. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR thought 
 this mode of proceeding was within the 
 scope of the rule before laid down by 
 their lordships. The rule was this — 
 that after the examination in chief, the 
 cross-examination, and the reexami- 
 nation, if counsel wished to put any 
 further questions to a witness, it must 
 bo done by suggesting the quest ioa to 
 tlic house. Their lordships might how- 
 ever, allow the question to be answered 
 immediately after they were suggested 
 by counsel, to be entered however on 
 the minutes as the examination of their 
 lordships. 
 
 Mademoiselle De Mont now appeared 
 at the bar. 
 
 Examined by Mr. WILLIAMS— I 
 
DE MONT. 
 
 321 
 
 I am acquainted with a person named 
 FriMicliese Martini (short^, not Martini 
 (Ion?:). 
 
 [The nicety of tliis distinction made 
 by the witness excited a laugh.] 
 
 I know a place called Mauge, in 
 ■fewit^erlaud. I have seen Madame 
 Martini several liHies, but I do not re- 
 collect having seen her in April, J818, 
 or any part of that year. I cannot re- 
 collect having sent for her to alter a 
 bonnet at Mauge, for I do not reside 
 at Mange, I may have seen her on 
 the subject of a bonnet in that year, 
 but I do not recollect it. I know Ma- 
 dame Martini, but I do not recollect 
 having seen her in that year, or having 
 had any couversatiou with her about the 
 Princess of Wales. I saw her after 1 
 left the service of the Princess of 
 Wales, but I do not recollect any 
 conversation about her royal highness. 
 It may be, but I do not recollect it. 
 I do not recollect that Madame Martini 
 spoke to me on the subject of my jour- 
 ney, I may have had such conversa- 
 tion, but I do not recollect it. I do 
 not recollect Madame Martini having 
 sp-'ken to me on the subject of the 
 Piiucess of Wales's conduct. I do not 
 recollect having spoken to her about 
 the princess, or the persons who sur- 
 rounded the princess. I do not recol- 
 lect having had any conversation with 
 her about the character of the Princess 
 of Wales ; 1 remember her having 
 raenlled a bonnet for me several times 
 at Mauge ; I do not remei^er Madame 
 Martini putting" the quesiion — whether 
 the Princess of Wales was not a woman 
 of intrigue. I uo.not at all remen)ber 
 any conversation with her oD the sub- 
 ject. I do not mean to swear that she 
 did not put the question, but 1 do not 
 at all recollect it. 1 will not say she 
 did not i)ut the question, I do not re- 
 collect that she put it. 1 have not the 
 least.idea of it. I do not recollect 
 having been angry with Madame Mar- 
 tini on the snV)ject of the princess. I 
 do not recollect this conversation. I 
 have not the least idea of it. 1 do not 
 recollect having told her that all that 
 was said of the princess was calumny, 
 and that her enemies circulated these 
 reports against her. I recollect nothing 
 like it. 1 will not swear I did not say 
 ^o: it maybe; I have not the least 
 id^a of it. Before I wa"? put upon my 
 oath, I said iH»thing about what passed 
 in the house of her royal highness. I 
 will not swear liiat I did not use this 
 language, but I have not the least idea 
 41 
 
 of it. I never could have said to Ma- 
 dame Martini that the princess was 
 surroundeil by spies siuce she left Eng- 
 land, for I never saw any spy. I will 
 not swear that I did not say so ; but I 
 do not recollect it. Though I said that 
 I never could have mentioned this, as 
 I knew no spy, I will not swear that 
 I did not say so J but I recollect no 
 such conversation. I have no idea of 
 it. I do believe I never said so to 
 Madame Martini. I will not swear it ; 
 but I do not think I said so. 1 do not 
 recollect having said to Madame Mar- 
 tini that the princess was very unfor- 
 tunate; I do not recollect this conver- 
 sation at all ; 1 do not recollect having 
 said to this woman that the most simple 
 actions of the princess's life were always 
 misinterpreted. I do not recollect the 
 conversation at all. I will not swear 
 that this conversation, or no part of it 
 passed in the year 1818, but I do not 
 recollect it. I remember being on a 
 visit at Madame Jecroix's, at Mauge. 
 I was on a visit there several times. I 
 was there in the year 1818 ; I wa/there 
 seveal times after quitting the service 
 of the princess. I might have had 
 a bonnet altered by Madame Martini 
 while I was on this visit in 1818 ; but 
 I do not reccollect it. I had several 
 bonnets altered hy her, but I do not 
 recollect one being altered in 1818. I 
 do not remember having told Madame 
 Martini that I was always near the 
 person of the princess, 1 do not recol- 
 lect Madame Martini having said to 
 me that as I was always about the 
 person of the princess I must have 
 observed all her actions. 1 will not 
 swear that she did not say so, but I do 
 not recollect this conversation. It may 
 be, but I have not the least idea of it. 
 In consequence of an observutiou 
 from Lord Lauderdale, the Lord Cha- 
 cellor directed the interpreter always 
 to put the question in the exact words 
 in which it was proposed. 
 
 I do not recollect that Madame 
 Martini enquired particularly of me 
 whether there was any thing unchaste 
 in the conducX of the princess. I do 
 not at all recollect having had this 
 c?t)nversation. I will not swear it did 
 not take place, but I do not recollect 
 it. I do not recollect having said to 
 Mad'dine Martini that it was impos- 
 sible any person could be more pure 
 than the princess. I cannot swear that 
 I had not this conversation; but 1 do 
 not recollect il. I do not recollect, in 
 answer to my question put by Madame 
 
3*22 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 Martini, having used these precise ex- 
 pressions, or any thing to that effect. I 
 do not reoiember such a question; 
 and if the question was asked, I do not 
 think 1 made such an answer. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR desired 
 that the questions, in future, should be 
 }»ut to this witness through the house. 
 If the examination was to he inserted 
 in the minutes as the exanjination of 
 their lordsliips, it was fit that the ques- 
 tions should he put in a proper manner. 
 
 The questions were then j'Ut throu;;h 
 the Lord Chancellor. 
 
 J have not the least idea o^ having 
 said that the old king was the only 
 friend her royal highness had. I will 
 not swear I did not say so ; but I do 
 not believe 1 did say so. I was several 
 times at Mauge. I might have been 
 therein themonthfof Nov.. 18 1 8. 1 may 
 have been tliere in that month ; I do 
 uoi exactly recollect. I was there in 
 the end of November, or the beginning 
 of December. J have not the least 
 idea of Madame Martini having asked 
 me if her royal highness was much af- 
 flicted at the death of her daughter the 
 Princess Charlotte. I will not swear 
 that Madame Martini did not put that 
 question. I cannot swear it, hut I have 
 not the least idea of it. I have not 
 the lea^t idea of havi g said it was 
 no w\>nder her royal highness should 
 be much afiflicied, as she lost all she 
 had by the death of the Princess Char- 
 lotte. I do not believe any such con- 
 versation took place. I have not the 
 I'east idea of having said to Madame 
 Martini that it was possible the Prin- 
 cess of Wales would make some dimi- 
 nution in the expenses of her household 
 after the death of the Princess Char- 
 lotte. I assure you I do not recollect 
 any such, conversation at all. 1 will 
 not pojitively swear it did not take 
 place, but I have nut the least idea 
 of it. 
 
 VV^hen was it you first made any de- 
 position in tlsis cause ? 
 • The LORD-CHANCELLOR.-,Has 
 the witness said any thing about a de- 
 position in the course of this day's 
 examination. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAMS; Yes, my Lord. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM submitted that 
 the question might be put, even though 
 the witness had not said any thing as 
 to a deposition since she was last 
 brought to the bar. 
 
 After a few observations from the 
 LORD-CHANCELLOR the question 
 was withdrawn. 
 
 The former questions and answers 
 were then read over to her, and she in 
 answer said, she adhered to them. 
 
 Re-examined by the SOLICITOR- 
 GENERAL.— -Before I was examined 
 here I was examined at Milan, and had^ 
 said nothing about her royal highness. 
 1 meant by saying 1 never spoke of her 
 till I was sworn, that I said nothing 
 previously of the conduct of the prin- 
 cess and baron Bergami. 
 
 The SOLICI rOR-GENERAL. May 
 I ask this witness, my lord, about the 
 journey with Bergami. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR said, 
 that it could uot be made to arise out 
 of this last examinaiion. 
 
 By the Earl of LAUDERDALE.— 
 When the occurences of which you 
 speak took place at Pesaro, was the 
 account of the Princess Charlotte's 
 death known } 
 
 The witness replied in the negative, 
 
 Madame De Mont was here ordered 
 to withdraw. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM then said, that 
 he was desirous that De Mont should 
 be recalled, and kept at the bar during 
 the examination of ihe witness whoai 
 he was about to call, and with whom 
 he wished to confront her. 
 
 The LORD-CHANCELLOR said, 
 the regular course would be to examine 
 .the. new witness, and first lay aground 
 of contradiction, before the witnesses 
 were confronted. 
 
 TWENTY-EIGHTH WITNESS. 
 
 FR AN CHEITI MARTINI w a? then 
 caled in, and examined by Mr. Williams. 
 
 I ana the wife of Henry Martini, of 
 Mauge, where ( keep a milliner's shop. 
 I know Louisa De Mont these many 
 years, ever since she was quite young, 
 about 16 years, and learning to work ; 
 and a good while before she entered 
 the service of the princess. I remem- 
 ber seeing her in the year 1818, in the 
 month of April, when she was in the 
 country house of Madame Jecroix, 
 where I was called to do some work. 
 Before that time I had read the journal 
 of De Mont, and had conversed with 
 her about the Princess; and in answer 
 to some questions of mine respecting 
 the conduct of her R. H. she told me 
 she knew nothing against the princess. 
 
 Here an argument took place be- 
 tween counsel respecting what Madame 
 De Mont had said and the Solicitor- 
 General stated that she had merely 
 said she never spoke of the priacess'9 
 
p. MARTINI. 
 
 323 
 
 ronduct wilh Bergami until she was i 
 examiued at Milan. ' 
 
 After a coDversatioii among the | 
 
 peers, it was decided that the exaaiiiia- 
 lioD uf the witness aliould be continued. 
 Her examination was accordingly re- 
 sumed by Mr. Williums, and she said, 
 '*I then observed to Madame Do Mont 
 that the princess was spoken of a liber- 
 tine, aa a gallante; and I said so, it 
 beiu^ frankly my opinion, from what 
 was said. Madame De Mont's answer 
 to me was — '* it is nothing but ca- 
 lumny — ail calumny, invented by her 
 enemies in order lo ruin her," and she 
 said every thing that was good of the 
 princess. She also told me, that ever 
 iiiuce the princess had left England slie 
 was surroutided by spies, that her best 
 acitous were mrsinterpreled, but that 
 she did nothing that all the world 
 might nut see and know. She said, 
 she had never ob^e^ved any thing 
 wrong about ilie princess, than whom 
 it was impossible, to her (De Mont's) 
 knowledge, for any body to be more 
 ■virtuous. She also said, that the old 
 •king was the only prop or su}>port of 
 the princess. Witness, in conclusion, 
 said that she bad known Madame De 
 Mont for several years. 
 
 Cross-examined by the SOLIClTOR| 
 GENERAL. — I rememberthis conver- 
 sation occuring inl818; because by re- 
 fer«nceto my books, I found that i- 
 was in April of that year, Madamt 
 De Moot had had her hat or bonnet 
 done at my place, and that was about 
 the time we had the conversation. I 
 deny that uy husband was embarrassed 
 in that year; neither he nor I were 
 ever bankrupts. Columbia, where De 
 Mont lives, is but a short league from 
 Mange, where I have seen her several 
 times, but only to converse with her on 
 Ibis affair once, and that wasthe time I 
 have already stated. I don't recollect 
 having seen Madame De Mont in 1817. 
 
 1 did not see her immediately before 
 April, 1817 t she was then in the ueigh- 
 bourho )d. After quitting the service 
 of the princess, 1 saw her in April, 
 1817, when I did that work for her. 
 De Mont came several times to my 
 warehouse at Maug»e. An acquaint- 
 ance originated in that. I do not re- 
 collect the time De Mont came to 
 Mauge first, but she was learning to 
 do needle work at -the house of the 
 Demoiselles Regard; she might be 
 then about 15 or 16 years of age, but 
 I cannot tell if it be five or six or ten 
 
 years ago. It was when I made that 
 work for her about the hat or the bon- 
 net. 1 cannot swear it was not more 
 than three years. The Demoiselles 
 Regard can be written to, and they will 
 tell that. The two sist^s, Jecroix, 
 were present when I had the conver- 
 sation with De Mont; one of them is 
 now at Lys, the other at a cotuitry 
 house near Mauge. The cuHversatiou 
 happened at the house of the Jecroix, 
 where De Moiit was then on a visit. 
 The Jecroix must have heard a great 
 part of it, but they were going in and 
 out, and may have lost some particu- 
 lars. They found fatdt with me fojr 
 making the observations I had made 
 upon De Mont. 
 
 Cross-examined by the SOLICITOR- 
 GENERAL : I was first examined on 
 the subject of this conver>ation aboiit- 
 a fortnight ago, by two English gcntlfsf^' 
 men; the name of one is JonnBori 
 (Vyson) ; they are Englisii names, and 
 1 do not recollect them. My exami- 
 nation was taken in writing, but the 
 copy of it was left mc, but I did not 
 keep it, nor put down any memoran* 
 dum of it in writing. Mr. Barry came 
 here with me and n>y husband, as I 
 never travel on a public road without 
 him. The English tcentlemen told me 
 we should be indemnified in all just 
 and fair expenses by tho government 
 of the country, as I came over to be a 
 witness. No sum was mentioned to me 
 for coming, and, as I did not know 
 these gentlemen, I would not trust them, 
 because, two years ago, an EngUshmau 
 of the name of Addison occasioned me a 
 loss of 50 loui^-. After this, they depo- 
 sited o£lOO. at Meurat's bank as a se- 
 curity for the peiformance of their 
 promise, and they have a receipt for 
 it. This oflOO. is not to be paid to 
 me ; it was only placed in the bank as 
 a security for their promise ; they did 
 not promise me £100., but only what 
 is just and fair. This is only a guaran- 
 tee, as they said they did not wish i6 
 buy up witnesses, 1 wi41 swear nobody 
 made me any promise of money— 
 never. I swear the exact truth. \ re- 
 ceived £^Q. on account, for which I 
 gave a receipt, as I have a suit depend- 
 ing at home which may be decided 
 against me if I am not returned on the 
 24ih of next month ; and not knowing 
 how long I should haVe to remain here, 
 I would not leave my affairs without 
 something to depend on. The gentle- 
 men paid my expenses. 1 travelled 
 
324 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 post, because it is only this day week 
 1 left Geneva at four in the afternoon. 
 I do not expect any fixed sum besides ' 
 the £70. ; my dependence is on what 
 the government will do. We have left 
 ouraffairsin the hands of strangers, and 
 we have a person we placed there in 
 my room ; and there are three young 
 women in my shop to do for. I have 
 had no fixed promise; these gentlemen 
 said nothing to me about it. 
 
 To a question where do you live 
 now, she answered, *« My God ! we ar- 
 rived here last midnight. Last night 1 
 was placed somewhere, and here I am 
 to day" (laughter) . 
 
 Re-examined by Mr. WILLIAMS. 
 I often sawDe Mont before she went 
 into the service of her royal highness, 
 and after at the house of Jecroix, where 
 this conversation took place about 
 eight days before I sent her the work 
 I had to do for her. 
 
 Tlie witness was aske-^l if she had 
 any conversation with the Demoiselles 
 Jecroix on the subject of what De 
 Mont said, which was objected to, and 
 not persevered iu by Mr. Brougham. 
 
 A chair was here offered to the wit- 
 ness, who observed, on seating herself, 
 ** Ah, mou Dien, que je suis bien 
 fatigue." 
 
 By Lord DARLINGTON : — De 
 Mont is not at all acquainted with my 
 husband. 
 
 By Lord HARROWBY.— I asked 
 De Mont how the princess was afflicted 
 on hearing the news of the death of 
 the Princess Charlotte. De Mont told 
 me the princess was extremely af- 
 flicted ; that she had then lost all she 
 had most dear to her. 
 
 A peer asked her, if, from her know- 
 ledge of De Mont, she would believe 
 her, which was objected to by the So- 
 licitor-General. 
 
 By Lord LAUDERDALE.— I do not 
 know if De Mont said, she was with 
 the princess when the news arrived of 
 the death of the Princess Charlotte, 
 but I asked her if she would return to 
 the service of the princess, to which 
 she said — Yes. She told me she was 
 then on leave of absence, because the 
 suite of the princess was in mourning. 
 She did not say if she was present 
 when Uie news of the death of the Prin- 
 cess Charlotte arrived. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said, in reference 
 to a statement which yesterday ap- 
 peared from the Baron d'Ende, and 
 without meaning to impute any fault 
 
 to the government of this conntry ia 
 the case, he wished to recall Mr. 
 Leman, in order to explain some dis- 
 crepancies that appeared between the 
 statement and Mr. Leman's testimony. 
 The SOLICITOR.GENERAL ob- 
 jected to this, on the ground that he 
 was always in court. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said, he was one 
 of those persons expressly alluded to 
 in the house a<> clerk of the agent. 
 
 Mr. LEMAN, clerk to Mr. Vizard, 
 was then called to the bar, and exa- 
 mined by Mr. TYNDALL.— 1 arrived 
 at Carlsrhue on the 13ih or 14th of 
 September; I was told the baron 
 d'Ende was then there. He was not ; 
 but I was told he would return on 
 Sunday, the 17th. On this 1 set out 
 for Baden, and on my way I met a 
 gentleman's carriage : thinking he 
 might be returning, 1 stopped, and 
 asked if the carriage belonged to the 
 baron d'Ende, and found it was. Ia 
 consequence of this, I handed him the 
 letter of her majesty, addressed to the 
 baron d'Ende, as chamberlain of the 
 grand duke of Baden. I spoke to 
 him, and asked him if I had the honor 
 of addressing the baron d'Ende, to 
 which he answered yes. He opened 
 the. letter, read it, and took me into 
 his carriage, and we went back to 
 Carlsrhue to his house. I have not 
 the slightest doubt I was with the 
 baron. The baron said he had busi- 
 ness which would then detain him till 
 Tuesday, that his minutes were at 
 Baden, and that he could not answer 
 the question I proposed to him without 
 first consulting those minutes. 1 next 
 went to Darmstadt, and saw the baroii 
 for the first time at Baden, when he 
 consulted his diary, and I took down 
 his deposition in writing. He showed 
 me several letters he had received from 
 her majesty. Before I left the baron 
 d'Ende, he said, as the information he 
 was to give was of an official cha- 
 racter, his friends thought he could 
 not give it without the consent of the 
 grand duke. The grand duke was not 
 then at Baden. I was told he would 
 not return till aboHt the 20th. 
 
 Mr. TYNDALL wished to ask the 
 witness whatBaron d'Ende said about 
 the grand duke's return, which was 
 objected to bv the Solicitor-General. 
 
 Lord LIVERPOOL thought the 
 question might be asked, considering 
 the papers which were then laid on 
 their lordship's table. The question 
 
MR. LEMAN. 
 
 325 
 
 was tKcn asked, and the witness an- 
 swered, tlie barou d'Eude said he could 
 uot return till the 80th. After which 
 time he would go and endeavour to 
 obtain permission to come to £ii<;Iand. 
 He went to do so on the 23rd of Sep- 
 tember, he had a letter from her ma- 
 jesty in his band, and said he was 
 jcoiujf to the palace to ask for per- 
 mission. 1 went to the door and saw 
 him g;o towards the palace. In about 
 half an hour after 1 saw him again. 
 I went out to the street to speak to 
 him, when he addressed me and said, 
 *• I am sorry I have bad news for you ; 
 1 am not permitted to go." He after- 
 wards took me to his house ; he ap- 
 peared greatly agitated ; caught hold 
 of my hand and put it to his heart, and 
 said, '* feel how it beats ?" I made 
 another application to the Baroy, and 
 feanug when I called he might be 
 out, left a letter for him, of which 1 
 have a copy. 
 
 Several peers : Read, read. 
 
 The ArrORNEY-GENERAL: As 
 their lordships wished, he would uot 
 object. 
 
 The witness resumed. — I received 
 an answer to the application by a 
 friend of the baron's, a lieutenant it) 
 the life guards of the grand duke ; it 
 was verbal, and to the effect, that he 
 could not make .the deposition without 
 the consent of the grand duke, and 
 declined making any written answer 
 to the letter of her majesty. 
 
 Lord LIVERPOOL put a question 
 to the witness as to his belief of the 
 importance of the testimony of the 
 barou, which was objected to by the 
 Marquis of Lansdown ; and after a 
 few words from Mr. Brougham, who 
 said he could swear to its importance, 
 and wished the agent in the cause, Mr. 
 Vizard, to be called to establish it, 
 was withdrawn. \ 
 
 CLOSE OF THE (QUEEN'S CASE. 
 Mr. BROUGHAM now addressed] 
 their lordshij.s, and ol?served that he 
 had now given them sunicient instances 
 of the great and insuperable difiicul- 
 ties which were thrown in the way of 
 her majesty, in the further prosecution 
 of her defence. He had shown to their 
 lordships that the same degree of 
 justice had not been dealt out to both 
 the parties in this case. He had shown 
 that when on the one hand, the wit- 
 ness Kress had been actually com- 
 relleU by a threat of force, and by this 
 
 very baron Berstett, to come to this 
 country as a witness against the queen ; 
 on the other, the baron d'Ende, whea 
 asked to come as a witness for the 
 queen, had been left entirely to his 
 own discretion. It was true that he 
 had received his '♦ congCy*' but this was 
 an ominous term — sufficiently strong 
 to strike any man to the heart, but 
 especially the poor chamberlain— 
 (hear, hear)* It was in faet tanta- 
 nmuut to saying, *< you may go ; but 
 never lei us see your face again." It 
 was ueituer inore nor less than, if he 
 did go, giving him to understand that 
 he had received his dismissal. He 
 believed that the baron was indeed ill 
 at such a prospect, and he blamed him 
 not for taking the hiut in the light: 
 in which it was meant. He felt it his 
 duty, however, seriously and solemnly, 
 to call upon their lordships to consider 
 all these circumstances as of no light 
 or trivial importance—to reflect upou 
 the influence which had been used by 
 the Baron Raden, and Baron Grimms 
 to enforce the attendance of witnesses 
 against the queen, while the very op- 
 posite course was taken where a single 
 individual was to be obtained in her 
 favour. He would ask them, whether 
 it did not now appear that there was 
 an utter impossibility of continuing 
 this case with justice to the queen; 
 ** and," continued the learned counsel, 
 " I am *ure the other party in this 
 case, if his majesty be that party— 
 that this august monarch will be the 
 iast man in his dominions that would 
 desire it to be continued, if it cannot 
 be continued with justice to his royal 
 consort. 
 
 The appeal of Mr. Brougham seemed 
 to have a powerful effect on the house. 
 Lord HOLLAND now called tRe at- 
 tention of the house, and the counsel 
 were ordered to withdraw. The noble 
 baron desired that the evidence of 
 Kress page 192, might be read. It 
 was read accordingly, and amounted to 
 this : ** I was asked to come here by 
 the minister at Carlsrhue, the baron 
 Berstett ; also by the baron de Grimm, 
 the minister of the court of Wirtem- 
 berg, and by the barou Raden, the am- 
 bassador of the court of Hanover. The 
 noble baron next referred to the mi- 
 nutes at page 102, where Kress deposed 
 " That baron Ber&tett told her, if she 
 did not go voluntarily sht should be 
 forced." 
 The noble Baron lastly desired^ that 
 
326 
 
 DEFENCE •? THE QUEEN. 
 
 the letter of baron Berstett to Mr. 
 Lamb should be read. 
 
 In fine, his lordship said that it was 
 not his intention to remiirk on this ; 
 but he could not reconcile it to his duty 
 in this stage of the proceeding, if he 
 had not draw n their lordship's attention 
 most formally and solemnly to the 
 parts of the evidence w^ch they had 
 heard, and to the Baron Berstett's let- 
 ter. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR: Call 
 in the counsel. 
 
 The counsel having appeared at the 
 bar, the Lord Chancellor asked Mr. 
 Brougham virbether he had any further 
 ■witnesses to call ? 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said, that with 
 the recollection of what had passed on 
 a former occasion, as well as to the 
 observations which he had recently 
 made, he felt impossible to proceed fur- 
 ther with this case. 
 ': The LORD CHANCELLOR: Do 
 yon call any witnesses on the other side. 
 
 The ATTORNEY GENERAL said, 
 he wished to call witnesses to contra- 
 dict some of the testimony offered in 
 the defence if the house so permitted. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR said, 
 that he was entitled to call such wit- 
 nesses as were consistent with the prin- 
 ciples of law. * 
 
 The ATTORNEY GENERAL said, 
 that undoubtedly he should do so. He 
 then proceeded to remark, that as char- 
 ges had been aeiainst col. Brown by the 
 witnesses on the other side, he was most 
 anxious that colonel Brown should be 
 present to rebut those charges. He 
 was taken entirely by surprise as to the 
 intention of bringing those charges, or 
 he would have sent for col. Brown at 
 an earlier period. He had now, how- 
 ever, sent for him, and he had to ap- 
 peal to their lordship's justice to per- 
 mit such a delay as would enable him 
 to have the attendance of that indivi- 
 dual. He had other witnesses to other 
 facts in attendance, but he thought it 
 ;was better to state his object now rather 
 than when he had gone into a part of 
 his case in reply. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM (in a tone of high 
 indignation,) ** I now ask your lord- 
 ships whether this is acourt of justice!" 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL thtn 
 begged permission before Mr. Brougham 
 replied to his learned friend, to oflFer a 
 few observations. He desired to state 
 that it was the opinion of all the coun- 
 sel engaged iu support of this bill> that 
 
 colonel Brown should be called to rebut 
 the ch rges which had been so unex- 
 pectedly brought against hina. He thea 
 proceeded to argue in support of the 
 apphcation of the Attorney-General. 
 Mr. BROUGHAM said, that nothing 
 had fallen from his learned friend who 
 had last spoken, which could induce 
 him to depart from the question which 
 he had asked their lordships, namely, 
 " Whether he was now to be told that 
 this was a Court of Justice ?" Whatever 
 suited the purposes of his learned 
 friends, or the purposes of the prose- 
 cution, was at once demanded, while 
 he was bound down by the forms of the 
 courts of law below, and by ninefold 
 technicalities. In addition to the foul 
 conspiracies and the gross perjuries by 
 which his illustrious client had been 
 assailed, he was now to be told, no 
 doubt, in order to afford an opportu- 
 nity for bringing further witnesses in 
 support of this bill, that their lordships 
 were now acting in theii legislative ca- 
 pacity, and were no longer (o be guided 
 or bound by the rules of a judicial 
 proceeding. In the beginning they 
 were told they were to be considered as 
 acting in a judicial capacity, but now 
 they were no longer a court of justice, 
 but were to employ their discretion as 
 a house of Parliament. He would ask, 
 whether such a demand had now been 
 made, as had ever been proposed since 
 justice had been administered in this 
 land, since proceedings of this nature 
 had been conducted with fairness be- 
 tween parties ? He would ask, whe- 
 ther any thing so monstrous had ever 
 been attempted as the object that was 
 now attempted to be obtained ? What 
 was now asked? The queen was on 
 her defence. Colonel Brown was not 
 upon his trial ; but because his name 
 had been mentioned, and his conduct 
 had been called in question—the queen 
 was to be forgotten — the queen was to 
 be injured — the queen was to be tramp- 
 led upon, in order that colonel Brown, 
 he knew not of what hussars, but ac» 
 tively engaged in this abominable Milan 
 Commission, should have an opportu- 
 nity of defending his acts I Was ever 
 such a proposition heard wf— was it in 
 the most^remote degree consistent with 
 those rules and forms which from time 
 immemorial had been observed in the 
 fair and honest administration of jus- 
 tice ? Could a more audacious attempt, 
 he would not say on the part of his 
 learned friend^ but •n the part of the 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 327 
 
 agents and promoters of this bill, have 
 been imagined ? Again, he said, that 
 colonel Brown was no party in this 
 case, and he trusted their lordshii)s, if 
 a panicle ot' power and justice were 
 still among them, they would not sutfer 
 so monstrous a proposition to succeed. 
 He denied that the Attorn y-General 
 bad been ta';en by surprise, as to his 
 intention to prove a foul conspiracy in 
 this case, and urged that his learned 
 friend had, from his own personal 
 knowledge of occurrences at Milan, 
 been fully apprised of the charges which 
 the witness i*omarti would bring against 
 colonel Brown. He alluded to an action 
 which had been tried at Milan, in 
 which Vilmacarti was the defendant — 
 an action brought by Codatzi for the 
 acts of seduction towards his clerk, 
 both on the part of colonel Brown and 
 Vilmacarti, with the occurrences then 
 disclosed, the Attorney-General was no 
 doubt fully acquainted ; and that he 
 was so, his cross-examination of Po- 
 marti at that bar fully established. 
 Upon the answer which every man of 
 common sense would give on the pre- 
 sent occasion he would rest his case. 
 He entreated their lordships to deal 
 out justice equally, and to act upon 
 those principles upon which they had 
 bitherto been guided. He called upon 
 them not to plunge into these irregu- 
 larities against the queen, which they 
 had rejected in her favour. He called 
 upon them not to add to the hardships 
 of a prosecution, which had already 
 been characterised by a compound of 
 monstrous, needless, and shameless 
 cruelty. 
 
 Mr. DEN MAN followed Mr. Brough- 
 am, amd protested, in the most solemn 
 manner, against the application of the 
 learned gentlemen on the other side. 
 ** I rely, my lords,," concluded Mr. 
 Denman, " upon the justice of your 
 lordships, for 1 defend my illustrious 
 client before a court of justice, from 
 which I ask for justice, from which I 
 ask no indulgence. When her majesty, 
 at the beginning of this extraordinary 
 trial, asked for time to have the whole 
 of the case brought forward together, 
 we were told that the case for the pro- 
 secution was first to be opened and 
 proved, and that then as much time as 
 could be required would be allowed to 
 ber majesty for bringing forward her 
 defence. But, good God I who ever 
 thought, where is the man among your 
 lordships, who ever contemplated even 
 
 the possibility of having, aft-T the At- 
 torney-General hai, with all the zeal 
 which he possesses, opened the case for 
 the prosecution, by enutnerating the 
 charges to be established against her 
 majesty — after the Solicitor-General, 
 with all his legal acuteness, had sum- 
 med up, and commented upon, that 
 evidence which was brought forward 
 to substantiate his ca^^e — after our 
 tongues had been tied for three weeks, 
 after we had laboured to succeed, if it 
 was not impossible fully to succeed in 
 removing ihe prejudices which the 
 publication of those monstrous slanders 
 for so long a time, had fon^ributed to 
 excite among the public, such an ap- 
 plication as the present for delay, of- 
 fered to your lordships ? My lord^, it 
 is impossible you can sanction it. We 
 will, for we can, show by arguments, 
 we will demonstrate by evidence, we 
 will satisfy your lordships and the coun- 
 try, and we will convince posterity, that 
 the charges against the queen are false, 
 that her majesty has beex unjustly at- 
 tacked, and we, therefore, maintain, 
 that she is entitled to a verdict of ac- 
 quittal from your lordships." 
 
 The ATTORNEY. GENERAL hav- 
 ing replied. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR, after 
 some ob-ervations on the application 
 which had been made, said he sliould 
 apply himself to the evidence, and sub- 
 mit in the morning, the best opinion 
 which he could form upon the subject. 
 He did humbly ask their lordships, for 
 the purpose of enabling him to form 
 that opinion, to defer the further con- 
 sideration of this subject until 10 o'clock 
 to-morrow morning. 
 
 Earl GREY concurred in the pro- 
 priety of adjournment, and the house 
 adjourned accordingly. 
 
 I TUESDAY, October 23. 
 
 I ORIGINAL DFPOSITIONS OF WiTNBSSE.S. 
 
 I Earl GREY said, that as this case 
 was now drawing towards a close, he 
 
 ; thought this was the proper and con- 
 
 I vcnient time to give notice to their 
 lordships respecting their proceedings. 
 
 I It was, he begged to remind their lord- 
 ships, the usual course in the courts 
 below, and as such it was stated by 
 Mr. Phillips in his Law of Evidence, 
 for the judge to have before him, dur- 
 ing the trial, the previous depositions 
 of the witnesses, for the purpose of 
 comparing them with wh*t they swore 
 
328 
 
 DEFENCE OP THE QUEElf. 
 
 to on the trial. Now here the previous I The Earl of DARNLEY entireW 
 
 depositions, instead of being regularly concurred in ojiinion ^Ith the noble 
 
 and judicially taken, were irregularly ! and learned lord, that this auplication 
 
 and extra-judicially taken ; still he j ought to be resisted; but he p'rincipallv 
 
 thought it most important that their I rose to enter his protest altogether 
 
 lordships should have these depositions ' ~ -• • " ■ 
 
 before them, when they came to the 
 
 consideration of the evidence in the 
 
 case. He, therefore, now gave notice, 
 
 that, on a future occasion, and before 
 
 they entered upon the whole cons:dera- 
 
 tion of the evidence, he should move 
 
 that these depositions be laid before 
 
 their lordships. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR rose to 
 remind the house, that they had sepa- 
 rated, yesterday, after an application 
 had been made by the Attorney-General 
 to stay the further proceedings in this 
 
 against any further proceedings in this 
 case. He did so upon three grounds, 
 any one of which he thought decisive, 
 but when all three concurred, they were 
 irresistible. The first was, the impos- 
 sibility of following up the clwe of the 
 manner in which the evidence was col- 
 lected — the second, abstraction of Ras- 
 telli — and the third, the non-appear- 
 ance of the baron d'Ende. For these 
 reasons, he protested against auy fun^ 
 ther proceedings in the bill. 
 
 The Marquis of CAMDEN con- 
 curred with the noble lord on the wool- 
 
 case, until ihe arrival of colonel Brown, j sack, that under all the circumstances 
 for the purpose of examination in the i «f the case the house ought not to ad- 
 cause. He had, since yesterday even- ! journ. He had thought it his duty frow 
 ing, considered this applicaiiou which his having had the honor to form an ac- 
 had been resisted by the counsel fori <l"aintance with colonel Brown, to look 
 her majesty, and though he thought j carefully into ail the evidence that afc- 
 the counsel on the one side were bound ' fected his character ; and having dono 
 to make, and those on the other to re- | this, though he thought it very hard 
 tist the application, his (tbe Lord- 1 upon colonel Brown to be denied an 
 
 Chancellor's) opinion was, that there 
 was nothing in the application which 
 called for any further delay in the pro- 
 ceedings upon this bill ; and he would 
 shortly state the reasons which influ- 
 enced his individual opinion to that 
 effect. He had since yesterday looked 
 over the whole of the minutes of evi- 
 dence which related to Col. Brown, and 
 he found that the matter which had 
 such reference, and upon which a ques- 
 tion might arise whether it ought to be 
 considered evidence or not in the cause, 
 was given two mouths ago. If, there- 
 fore, it were only to be considered as 
 testimony in the cause, it had been 
 given so far back as lo afford time for 
 bringing over col. Brown, if his evi- 
 dence were deemed material. His 
 individual opinion, therefore, was, that 
 in justice to the queen, they could not, ; 
 upon the application made by the 
 Attorney-General, stay the proceedings 
 in the case. If this individual opinion 
 should be adopted by the house, ii 
 
 would be his duty to move that counsel ' ships' journals. 
 
 opportunity of vindicating his characte* 
 before that large assembly, he could 
 come to no other conclusion than that 
 which he had announced, and, in his 
 judgment, the house could pursue no 
 other course than that which had been 
 recommended to them this day. For 
 colonel Brown, he must say, that he 
 knew him to be a gallant officer, and an 
 honorable man. He had seen a great 
 deal of service, had been 14 years a 
 subaltern, and had been wounded in 
 action not fewer than six or seven 
 times. 
 
 Lord HOLLAND thought nothing 
 could be more clear than this, that the 
 proceedings ought not to be suspended 
 on account of coionel Brown. He might 
 be a very deserving officer; but if it 
 Were right f(»r any noble lord to pro- 
 nounce a long panegyric on his services 
 in that house, it inigut be permitted to 
 another to state what lie thought of the 
 conduct of colonel Brown iu certain 
 transactions as they stood on their lord- 
 
 be called in ; and that the Aitorney- 
 Geueral be informed, that the house 
 could not accede to his application to 
 stay proceedings. If their lordships 
 differed with him in opinion, he would 
 of course, be bound to give effect to 
 their opinion, whatever it should be, 
 (hear, hear^ hear). 
 
 The question was then put and agreed 
 to, and the counsel were ordered to be 
 called in. 
 
 The counsel on both sides having" 
 taken their places at the bar, 
 
 The Attorney-General was informed 
 that the house had rejected his appli- 
 cation for further delay. 
 
tHE^BNCE or Tllte QtEEN. 
 
 ^D 
 
 f hP t6V(X) CHANCEKLOR tlien 
 disked the Attorney-0<Mieral if he had 
 «ny witnesses to call in reply ? 
 
 EVIDENCE IN REPLY. 
 
 The Attorney General having an- 
 nounced his iuteuiioii to recall captain 
 Briggs, he was arct)r(litij::ly put to the 
 bar, and examined by the A 1 TORNEY- 
 GENERAL. 
 
 You have stated that you commanded 
 rhe Leviathan al tl\e time her royal 
 highness the prince>s of Wales was on 
 board that ship: — 1 have, i 
 
 Do you remember lieutenant How- 
 nam being on board with her royal 
 highness? — I do. 
 
 I believe you stated that Bergami 
 was also on board that ship? — I did. 
 
 Do you remember any conversation 
 with lieutenaut Hownamonthe subject 
 of Bergami? — I do. 
 
 Was it a conversation about Bergami 
 being admitted to a seat at her royal 
 fiighness's table ? — It was. 
 
 State what lieutenant Hownam told 
 you ba that occasion ? — I observed to 
 lieutenant Jlownam, in coiversation, 
 that captain Pechell had told me that 
 Bergami stood behind his chair when 
 the princess first embarked on board 
 the Clorinde frigate, and asked him 
 how it was that he was now admitted 
 to a seat at her royal highaess's table ? 
 He replied, that he was sorry it was so ; 
 that is, that he was sorry the princess 
 had admitted him (Bergami) to her 
 table, and that he (lieutenant How- 
 nam) had entreated her royal highness 
 down on his knees, with tears in his 
 eyes, not to admit him to her table, but 
 all to no purpose. 
 
 To the best of your recollection 
 what did he say on the subject ? — To 
 tile best of my recollection, he said 
 that happened ou the very day that 
 Bergami's situation was changed, that 
 is, on the first day that he dined at the 
 table of her royal highness. 
 
 Cross-examined by Mr.BROUGH AM. 
 — Captain Briggs, when did this of 
 which you speak happen on board the 
 Leviathan ? — It happened when the 
 ship was on her passage between Fer- 
 raro and Palermo. 
 
 In what year ? — It was in 1B15« 
 At what time in the year ? — In the 
 month of November. 
 
 Who was present at the time ? — I do 
 not. recollect that any one was. 
 
 Try if you cannot recollect ?— .We 
 
 42 
 
 were in conversation togetber, I and 
 lieutenant Hownam, walking the deck. 
 You were frequently in conversation 
 with him, I believe ? — Occasionally. 
 
 Occasionally, I mean ; I do not sup- 
 pose you held conversations vvilh him 
 every half hour P — No ; nor^ven every 
 day. 
 
 But this was not the only conver- 
 sation you had with him ? — No. 
 
 You have conversed with him since ? 
 — Yes ; he came down to me Troni 
 Brandenburg House, and wanted to find 
 out from me the nature of the evidence 
 I meant to give here. I declined to 
 converse with him on this subject. It 
 was at seven In the morning that, he 
 came to me. On taking leave, he said 
 he should feel obliged to me if I could 
 tell him whether any alteration had 
 been made in the cabin of the Leviathan, 
 for he did not recollect that there had ' 
 been any : upon which I expressed to 
 him my surprise at hearing him say so, 
 and brought to his recollection that al- 
 terations had been made iu the cabin, 
 and made in his presence. 
 
 Very well. In short, he had for- 
 gotten the circumstance ? — I must pre- 
 sume so. , 
 
 You mentioned to him (lieutenant 
 Hownam) what captain Pechell had 
 said of'Bergatni. Then Pechell, X 
 suppose, had made some difficulty- 
 had started some objection to herroyu 
 highness dining on board his ship? — 
 He positively refused to sit down with 
 Bergami ; he had no objection at all to 
 her royal highness. 
 
 He would not sit down with Ber- 
 gami ? — I do Dot know that positively, 
 as 1 was not on board that ship. 
 
 What led to the conversation you 
 were speaking of-'were you t.'^lking^ 
 about Bergami sitting down to her 
 royal highness's table ?— No; not about 
 that. 
 
 I understood the conversation to 
 begin with a statement that captain 
 Pechell had seen Bergami standing be- 
 hind his chair ?— No. 
 
 You have mentioned the observation 
 lieutenant Hownam made to you, did 
 that observation operate on captain 
 Pechell as a reason against his silling 
 dovyn at the same table with Bergami ? 
 •—No, I cannot say that; it occurred 
 long afterwards; it was when captain 
 Peehell saw her royal highness for the 
 second time. 
 Did you make any note of the con- 
 
330 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 yersalion you have mentioned at the 
 lime it took place ?— None whatever. 
 
 You have now spoken then to what 
 you recollect of a conversation that 
 took place five years ago ? — I have a 
 jierfect recollection of that conver- 
 sation. 
 
 When did you first mention it ? — I 
 believe I have mentioned it several 
 times. 
 
 But do you recollect any one par- 
 ticular time ? — I remember that it was 
 brought particularly to my recollection 
 by a letter which I received, inquiring 
 if I recollected such a conversation. 
 
 At what time did you receive that 
 letter — since these proceedings com- 
 menced ?— Since the house met the 
 first time. 
 
 You say the conversation was brought 
 to your recollection by that letter ? — 
 It was never absent from my recol- 
 lection, and when I was written to to 
 know if such a conversation had taken 
 place, I answered, to say that it bad, 
 *nd that it was true. 
 
 It was never a moment from your re- 
 Collection ? — I always remembered it 
 VJ ell. 
 
 Now, captain Briggs, as this con- 
 versation was always more or less in 
 your recollection, will you mention one 
 of the occasions on which you spoke of 
 it ? — I have mentioned it on several 
 occasions that I could name ; I once 
 mentioned it to Sir G. Cockburn. 
 
 ! j^ou mentioned it to Sir G. Cock- 
 burn ; — you mean one of the lords of 
 the Admiralty ?— Yes. 
 
 About when ? — This was some time 
 ago. 
 
 How long ?— M any months ago. 
 Some four or five. I mentioned it tu 
 bim long befpre I knew that I should 
 have t<f/ mention it here. 
 
 Had Sir G. Cockburn questioned you 
 Oil this subject .' No, 
 
 How did you begin the conversation 
 — what led to it ? — I forgot what led to 
 the conversation, but I remember the 
 fact of my mentioning it to him. 
 
 You say this was four or fire months 
 ago ?— Yes, 
 
 You have had the honour of dining 
 with the king ; lately have you not ? 
 I have ; at Portsmouth. 
 
 Sinc^ you were last examined in this 
 house ? — ^Yes ; since I was last exa- 
 m'med in this house. 
 
 Re-examined by the ATTORNEY- 
 GENERAL. '" 
 
 1 brieve ^ou have the command of 
 
 a guard-ship at Portsmouth ?-»I bavt ^ 
 I have the command of the Britannia-, 
 
 Had you that command at the time 
 his majesty was at Portsmouth ?— Yes. 
 
 Did you dine with his majesty in 
 company with other officers of the fleet 
 who paid their repects to his majesty ? 
 — Yes the officers of the navy at Ports- 
 mouth : one of the captains, every one 
 without exception. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GEN ERAL.—My 
 lords, as the ca&e now stands, I will 
 not trouble your lordships with any 
 more witnesses, 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM.— My lords, to 
 save your lordships time and trouble, 
 my friend, Mr. Deuman, tells me be is 
 rckidy to go on. 
 
 SUMMING UP OF THE QUEEN'S 
 CASE. 
 Mr. DENMAN then proceeded to 
 address their lordships. Under auy 
 circumstances in which it was possible 
 for any advocate to be called on to dis- 
 charge the solemny duty then imposed 
 upon him, he was sure that it would 
 be unnecessary to request the merciful 
 indulgence of their lordships to the 
 individual who had to address them ; 
 and perhaps there was something iu 
 the peculiar circumstances under which 
 he himself came forward which made 
 it more fitting and necessary that " h* 
 should receive an ampler portion o^ 
 ihat indulgence, of which he was fully 
 sensible that he stood so much in n€ed. 
 For, certainly, after the application 
 which had been yesterday made, and 
 the wish which had been yesterday 
 expressed by the Attorney-Generaf that 
 all the evidence which he had to oflfer 
 in contradiction to that offered on be- 
 half of the queen should be postponed 
 until their lordships had decided whe- 
 ther the evidence of colonel Brown 
 should be received or not, it was only na- 
 tural to expect that, besides the solitary 
 witness whom he had called to a sin- 
 gle point of evidence, there might have 
 been a conisderable mass of contra- 
 dictory testimony to consider, especialy 
 as the whole of his (the Attorney-Gene^!- 
 ral's) cross-examination of the wit- 
 nesses for the defence was such as led 
 plainly to the inference that it vrss^ 
 intended to go at length into evidenq^ 
 in reply, and was, therefore, such as 
 kept his (Mr. Deuman's) attention'Coo- 
 tinually suspended, and diverted his 
 ntind from that connection with the case 
 made upon the other side^ whii^ it was 
 
^^,.A;^f 
 
 
•^ 
 
 f 
 
DfeFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 331 
 
 necessary for him to preserve, in the 
 contemplatiou of bein<; required to 
 proceed inmiediatt^ly with his summing 
 up. He did not intend to make any 
 Complaint of that circumstauce ; be- 
 cause, during the time that had elapsed 
 in proof of the accusations against her 
 majesty, and likewise of the defence, 
 he should have been deficient in his 
 duty as the queen's counsel, if he had 
 not paid the closest attention to the 
 •whole of the etidenee. He should, 
 now without further preface, proceedto 
 make his remarks upon the vvhole of 
 tiiat evidence — evidence which, he said 
 it boldly, had satisfied his miud, had 
 satiitied the minds of the learned 
 friends with whom he acted, had sa- 
 tisrteM the minds of all the people of 
 England, and th«se too of all the civi- 
 I'zed nations in the world, who were 
 looking with a deep interest on these 
 momentous proceeditjgs, that illus- 
 trious client had established such a 
 defence, as made it imperative on their 
 lordships to give her a most complete 
 acquittal of all the charges which had 
 been peeu preferred against her. He 
 wished to proceed to that examination 
 with all that calmness and deliberation, 
 aud absence from all personal feeling 
 and violence, which were so necessary 
 to be observed in order to obtain a 
 complete investigation of the truth. 
 But it was not to be expected that, in 
 the many interlocutory contests and 
 debates which had arisen in the 
 course of these proceedings, there 
 might not have been exhibited at one 
 and a temper for which an apo- 
 logy was requisite — but it was no other 
 than the enormous magnitude of the 
 case, and its tremendous consequences 
 to his illustrious client and the country, 
 and the deep anxiety with which 
 an advocate must be overwhelmed 
 in coming to the consideration of it. 
 They had been charged with making 
 use of invective, declamation, and vio- 
 lence, for the purpose of producing an 
 effect, not in, but out of doors ; nay^ 
 he begged leave to state, that his 
 learned friend had seemed to think 
 that on some occasions they had borne 
 personally too hard upon him ; but he 
 must disclaim all intention of bearing 
 hard upon him, or of casting any im- 
 putation upon his honor and character ; 
 and, th-erefore, if from what fell from 
 him yesterday, he (the Attorney-Gene- 
 ral) supposed that he (Mr. Denman) 
 questioflied his vecacity, he begged to 
 
 say, that if any thing which dropped 
 from him at that time could be clothed 
 with such a supposition, and could war-, 
 rant such au assumption, he unequivo- 
 cally retracted it before the assembly ni 
 the face of which it was made, and was 
 sorry that any language of h!s should 
 have led to such a mistake (hear, hear.) 
 fle had no intention of giving uneasi- 
 ness in' any quarter ; but be must say 
 that he had felt it deeply, and often, in 
 the course of this proceeding. It wa& 
 therefore impossible for amannott<>, 
 ask indulgence for any warmth into, 
 which he might have been betrayed ; 
 because the illustrious individual who 
 was their client, had been, from the 
 first moment in which she hftd set her 
 foot in this country, the victim of the 
 most crt«el oppression, and the most 
 dreadful and irreparable wrong. That, 
 galling recollection had attended them 
 through the Avhole of these proceedings ; 
 it must be their excuse for any undife 
 warmth with which they might have 
 expressed themselves ; and having said 
 that, he should proceed, without any 
 further apology to the case itself. But, 
 whilst he disclaimed all personal impu- 
 tation on his learned friend, he claimed 
 the right of animadverting with great 
 freedom on his conduct as an advocate, 
 inasmuch as from the conduct of an 
 advocate not only the impressions of 
 his mind might be collected, but also 
 much of the nature of the instructions 
 under which he acted, aiul of the spirit 
 in whicii the prosecution had been 
 commenced and conducted to its close. 
 To have to conduct a case in such a 
 spirit he conceived to be a misfortune,, 
 for which no rewards, no honors, could 
 afford au equivalent— a misfortune, 
 which had weighed down his learned 
 friend throughout the whole of these 
 proceedings — a misfortune to which, he 
 declared beforeGod,thatnothing with- 
 in the scope of human ambition could 
 have tempted him (Mr. Denman) to 
 have submitted for a single moment - 
 be meant the office of prosecuting this 
 bill of pains and penalties to divorce 
 and degrade the wife of the King of 
 England. In order i^ see the nature 
 of the proof brought forward in support 
 of that bill, their lurd^hips must look 
 to the charges contained in the pream- 
 ble ; and, in order that they might 
 fully understand them, he must refe» 
 them to the manner in which the in- 
 dictment against his Uustrious client 
 was drawn up. it sta ted^that her ni»* 
 
332 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEE5. 
 
 jesty, " while at Milan in Italy, had 
 engaged in her service an individual in 
 a menial capacity ; and that, while in 
 that situation, a most unbecoming and 
 degrading intimacy soon commenced 
 between her royal hig;huess and that in- 
 dividual ; that he was advanced to a 
 liigh situation in her royal highness's 
 household, and that he was received by 
 her royal highness with 'great and extra- 
 ordinary marks of favor and Histiuetion; 
 and that she, unmindful of her exalted 
 rank and station, and wholly regardless 
 of her own honor and character, had 
 <Jonducted herself t<Mvards him, both in 
 public and private, in the various places 
 and countries which she visited, with 
 ihdecent and offensive familiarity and 
 fredom ; and carried on a licentious, 
 disgraceful, and adulterous intercourse 
 with the said Bergauii, by which con- 
 duct great scandal and dishonor had 
 been brought upon his majesty and tliis 
 kingdom." He was aware that their 
 lordships were now upon the second 
 reading of thebill, and that, in address- 
 ing them he had ouly one simple ques- 
 tion to discuss — namely, whether the 
 allegations in the preamble were at 
 all made out by the evidence adduced 
 in support of them. It had been stated 
 (and the whole preamble went to charge 
 it), nay, it had indeed been proved, that 
 Bergami had entered in a menial capa- 
 city the service of her royal highness, 
 and that he had be^en afterwards pro- 
 moted; that several of his relations had 
 been taken into her service ; and that 
 he had received several marks of favor 
 both himself and his family. But wheu 
 the next clause in the preamble came 
 under consideration, that clause which 
 stated that Bergami had received titles 
 and orders of knighthood through the 
 ii^fluence of her majesty, he thought 
 that it was only fitting that some evi- 
 dence had been given that they were 
 really obtained by that power and that 
 influence. All that tlieir lordships had 
 heard was, that at one period he was 
 >vithout titles, and that at another he 
 possessed them. There had not been 
 a tittle of evidence produced to shew 
 how he had obtained them, or that her 
 royal highness had been instrumental 
 in procuring them for him, except in- 
 deed such evidence were to be found 
 in the circumstance of her royal high- 
 ness having conferred on him an order 
 of knighthood which she was said to 
 have instituted without any legal right 
 or authority so to do : but before that 
 
 clause of the preamble which charged 
 this occurrence could be considered as 
 a crime against her majesty, they ou^ht 
 to lave heard something to prove that 
 iioiie but royal persi>j)ages had a right 
 to iustitMte orders of knighthood, la 
 the course of his historical inquiries he 
 had never met with anything which 
 led him to believe that this was the 
 right of royalty alone ; on the con- 
 trary, he had found that it had been 
 excited by many individuals of inferior 
 rank. In France several orders had 
 been established by persons iu a ca- 
 pa:;ity infinitely more humble ; and 
 also in Italy by three merchant*, bro- 
 thers, he believed, though he did not 
 at that moment recollecttheir name:— . 
 all which went to prove that there 
 were prectdenis for the establishment 
 Of orders of knighthot)d by private in- 
 divio^ual-. He treated thi-. part of ihc 
 accusation with seriousness, because 
 U was so treated in the preamble of 
 the l)ill, and because it was there 
 charged against her royal highness 
 as an infringement of royal authority. 
 When this was the first instance within 
 six centuries of an European princess 
 visiting the Holy Sepulchre, there could 
 surely be no crime if she, delighted 
 with the adventure, and strtick with 
 the novelty of all around her, did that 
 which the dukes of Orleans and Bour- 
 bon had done before her — institute an 
 order of kighthood to reward those 
 who accompanied her. He could 
 hardly suppose that this could be vi- 
 sited with any peculiar severity against 
 her royal highness, though it was the 
 charge against her which had been 
 best proved. Bacon had said {that^ 
 " princes had many times made to 
 themselves desires, and sate their 
 hearts on toys — sometimes upon abuild- 
 iug, sometimes upon erecting of an 
 order." The illustrious lady, his client, 
 was proved to have erected an ad- 
 ditional wing to the Villa d'Este, vvhich 
 he understood to be in the best taste, 
 and to do no discredit to her royal 
 highness's judgment, however it might' 
 difffer from some of those buildings 
 which had been recently erected iu 
 I this country. And as to the order 
 I which she had established, it was 
 merely inserted to swell out the pre- 
 amble, and ought not, therefore, to 
 attract any more of their lordship's 
 notice. When he came to the next: 
 claus^ in the preamble, he came to 
 that clause which charged her majesty 
 with indecent conduct and aduUerous 
 
DEFENCE OP THE QUEEN. 
 
 33a 
 
 lutercoupse, and that he believed to 
 include the real question on which their 
 lordships were then assembled to de- 
 cide— uaraely, whether the adulterous 
 intercourse had taken place at all ? 
 and then, whether it had so taken 
 place as to brings scandal on the king^, 
 and dishonor on the people of Eng- 
 land. And here he cuulU not help •b- 
 serving, that lier majesty's counsel 
 approached to that issue under all the 
 disadvantage under which it was pos- 
 sible that a defendant couU labor, 
 inasmuch as they were in utter dark- 
 ness of all the charges which they 
 were called upon to meet, up to the 
 very hour of the trial. The opening 
 speech of the Attorney-General was 
 the first specification of the charges 
 which they had to refute — and that, 
 too, not a specification of the witnesses 
 who were to support them — for his 
 learned friend had not mentioned the 
 uame of a single witness in the whole 
 course of his speech, but a mere speci- 
 fication of the charges against which 
 they had to defend their illustrious and 
 injured client. He should, therefore, 
 refer to the speech of the Attorney- 
 General, a to the case which he was 
 called upon to answer : and the only 
 way in which he should do it, would 
 be by observing on the statements 
 which it contained, and on the manner 
 in which they had been supported by 
 the witnesses he, (^the Attorney-Ge- 
 neral) had produced. The first case, 
 or the first 4:ouut, or the first overt act 
 of high treason which had been charged 
 against her majesty, was the alleged 
 transaction at Naples : and certainly 
 there never was a series of facts more 
 likely to make a deep impression upon 
 an audience than that which had been 
 detailed to their lordships by his 
 learned frien^. That detail not only 
 made it clear that the adulterous in- 
 tercourse charged in the bill occurred 
 on that very night, hut gave a sem- 
 blance of colour and probability to all 
 the circumstances which had followed 
 afiCr it. For what was the statement 
 of the Attorney-General ? He had said 
 that the person whom he charged as 
 the paramour of her royal highness, 
 and who before slept at a distance from 
 her royal highness, was on that night 
 reo^oved to a chamber near her : that 
 the boy Austin, who before slept near 
 the person of her royal highness, was 
 on that night removed by her desire : 
 that ou that uight she had returned at 
 
 an early hour from the opera ; that 
 her maid, who happened to be present, 
 observed her to be greatly agitated ; 
 that her royal highness retired to her 
 chamber, and hastily dismissed he» 
 attendant ; and then came the remark*^ 
 able addition to the maid's testimony, 
 which was, according to his learned 
 friend's statement, that on the follow- 
 ing morning it was discovered her royal 
 highness had not on the preceding 
 night occupied her own bed, but that; 
 in the larger one there were found de- 
 cisive marks of its having been slept 
 upon by two persons. The princess 
 on that morning was not visible at au 
 early hour, as usual; that she re- 
 mained locked up in her room until 
 late in the day, and did not then re- 
 ceive the several persons of rank who 
 called to pay their compliments upoa 
 her royal highness's arrival at Naples ; 
 and during that forenoon, Bergami was 
 missed from the breakfast table of the 
 servants. What followed in his learned 
 friend's speech came naturally enough,, 
 after these proceedings — namely, that! 
 Bergami's conduct became altered, 
 that he assumed an impudent and 
 overbearing manner towards the other 
 domestics, and conducted himself with 
 intrusive and improper familiarities 
 towards his royal mistress. Snch were 
 the charges that had been opened, 
 confidently opened by his learned friend 
 the Attorney-General, and which^^ 
 doubtless, if proved by the witnesses 
 for the bill, naturally led to only one 
 conclusion. But he asked their lord- 
 ships, did that result follow in this 
 case ? or were not, on the contrary , 
 all the facts which were capable of 
 refutation clearly and unequivocally, 
 contradicted by her majesty's evidence. 
 From the evidence on the part of the 
 queen, was it not clearly proved that, 
 instead of the change of the apart- 
 ments having taken place with her 
 knowledge and authority, it was done 
 of his own accord by her majesty's 
 housekeeper, in the bustle of a new 
 arrival, to provide more accommo- 
 dation, and altogether without her ma- 
 jesty's being consulted on the subject. 
 If, therefore, it should appear that this 
 arrangement was made by Mon- 
 sieur Sicard, without the princess's 
 knowing any thing whatever of the 
 matter, what became of his learned 
 friend's statement of this part of the 
 case in his opening' speech ? Then, as 
 to the removal ot William Austia from 
 
334 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEJf. 
 
 sleeping iu the same apartment with 
 her royal highness, what became of 
 the statement that this change was 
 made for the first time on the prin- 
 cess's arrival at Naples, when it was 
 shown to have previously and repeat- 
 edly taken place before her royal high- 
 ness's arrival at Naples, whenever the 
 travelling accommodations admitted 
 the change ? and this was most pro- 
 perly done upon the remonstrance of 
 her royal highness's chamberlain, who 
 thought the age of William Austin 
 rendered it necessary — he being then 
 13 or 14 years of age — that he should 
 be provided with a chamber apart from 
 that of the princess. There was so far 
 an end to the novelty of Austin's sepa- 
 rate room on the princess's arrival at 
 Naples. If, then, it should also appear 
 that the princess, so far from return^ 
 ing early from the opera, remained 
 thera until the close of the perform- 
 ance — if, instead of secretly coming 
 home, she returned, as Sir William 
 iGell, who accompanied her, deposerl, 
 in the same state in which she went to 
 the theatre — if, instead of De Mont 
 being in waiting to attend, she was 
 t-alied up for the purpose, and that 
 Sir William Gell actually escorted 
 the princess to the door of her apart- 
 ment—if, when all these things met 
 tjieir lordships in proof on the minutes 
 of the evidence, and that, from the 
 same authority, it should further ap- 
 pear that no agitation was observed at 
 the time alluded to in the princess's 
 manner, nothing particular seen in 
 her conduct that night, no oversleeping 
 on the following morning, no refusal 
 to see persons of rank who came in the 
 forenoon to pay their respects, • no 
 missing of Bergami from the servants' 
 breakfast-table — then, after their lord- 
 ships saw all this in proof, had he not 
 ^ right to say that the witness De 
 Mont's story stood so covered with 
 contradictions upon all these facts, 
 which were, from their nature, capable 
 of being repelled by evidence, that on 
 the only remaining parts of it, vthich, 
 from her saying she was alone at the 
 time with the princess, were incapable 
 of being met by any contradictory evi- 
 dence, she was utterly disentitled to 
 jfny belief? The princess's manner, 
 she said, was agitated. Now, in the 
 first place, it was not easy to depend 
 upon one person's opinion of the man- 
 ner of another ; that was a very diffi- 
 cult sort of testimorny to rely confi- 
 
 dently upon under any circumstance; ? 
 but when every part of De Mont's tes- 
 timony which came within the co-ob- 
 servation of another was utterly and 
 effectually contradicted, what reliance 
 in any degree could be placed upon 
 the slightest part of her longhand often 
 contradicted examination? In refer- 
 ing to the mass of details which lay in 
 the minutes before their lordships, he 
 feared he must necessarily become te- 
 dious ; but he knew that they who had 
 witnessed the whole proceedings would • 
 see the necessity of his recalling their 
 attention by reference to such parts of 
 the evidence as bore upon the case of 
 his illustrious client. If in an> part of 
 his reference he should fall into unin- 
 tentional error, he should not consider 
 it any interruption, but, on the com- 
 irary, a serious favour, to be set right 
 as he went on, either by his learneti 
 friends at the other side, or by aiiy of 
 their lordships. His object, in now 
 alluding to the evidence, was not to 
 get rid of the effect of these things, 
 by shewing how incredible, how impos- 
 sible, was their occurrence in the man- 
 ner stated by his learned friend; but 
 shortly and simply to shew, that not 
 only was the opening case not proved 
 by the evidence adduced toi support it, 
 but that many parts of it were expressly 
 negatived out of the mouths of the 
 Attorney-General's own witnesses to 
 substantiate his own facts, as well as 
 out of those of the witnesses brought 
 forward in behalf of her majesty. By 
 referring to the evidence of Sicard, in 
 pp. 566 and 593 of the minutes, they 
 would find the two charges fully and 
 unequivocally negatived respecting the 
 change of the apartments at Naples, 
 ana 'he bed in the cabinet. In Mr. 
 K. Craven's evidence, in pp. 537 and 
 543, they would find the recommenda- 
 tion at a previous period that it was 
 proper William Austin should be placed 
 in a separate sleeping room, for that 
 his age at that time rendered it unfit 
 that he should «leep in the same room 
 with the princess: and from this part 
 of the evidence it would also be seen 
 that this proper recommendation 
 had been acted upon, and particu- 
 larly in Germany. In the evidence 
 of >ir William Gell and Mr. Craven, 
 in pages 355 and 55 1 , there was demon- 
 strative proof that these gentlemen had 
 remained with the princess until the 
 close of the opera at Naples, and fnr 
 reasons that rendered their testimony 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 335 
 
 conclusive. Theu again came the total 
 absence of all proof tliat Bergami was 
 absent the following morning at break- 
 fast time, and the tlat and strong con- 
 tradiction that any change in his be- 
 haviour had been observable at lliat 
 time, either towards his ipistross or any 
 of bis fellow-servants — a change which 
 would have been most natural indeed, 
 if the facts, as opened by the Attorney- 
 General, had any foundation in truth. 
 He adopted fully the opinion of his 
 learned friend that such would have 
 been the demeanour of Bergami had he 
 bfen permitted by his mistress to take 
 those liberties with her which laid tlie 
 ground of this charge. But there was 
 scarce a page on the minutes of evi- 
 dence before them, which did uot go to 
 negative any such conduct, and of 
 course to destroy the inference that was 
 drawn from it. From first to last, from 
 the time at which he occupied an 
 humble station in the household, up to 
 that when he was honoured with a 
 higher and more confidential place, his 
 whole conduct was distinctly proved to 
 be that of an humble and respectful 
 .servant to a mistress who was kind 
 and affable it was true, but who, in 
 her aflability, never lost sight of her 
 proper dignity. Mr- Craven's evi- 
 dence on that point was quite conclu- 
 sive. That witness, when asked whe- 
 ther Bergami's manners at the outset 
 were those of a gentleman, very pro- 
 perly answered, »* I do not know what 
 can be meant by the manners of a 
 gentleman in a courier ; I know he 
 conducted himself well as such, and 
 afterwards when I met him at her 
 royal highnesses table, his conduct was 
 uoezceptionablc." With respect to 
 what De Mont deposed in p. 253, res^ 
 peeling the two beds'— namely, that no 
 person slept on the night shemsntioned 
 in the Princess's small travelling-bed, 
 btit that two must have slept in the 
 large bed, from the tumbled state in 
 which it appeared— it was. a little cu- 
 rious that, if the princess w^ere guilty 
 of the crime imputed to her, she should 
 have left such proofs open for her de- 
 tection, such marks cafculated to excite 
 observation, when they might so easily 
 have been obviated. He should shew 
 that this part of the statement was 
 altogether improbable, and utterly dis- 
 entitled to any credit, It was also 
 ludicrous to attach any value to her 
 fi^tement upon that point, after the 
 Jnaiine^ in wiych she ^ook her evi- 
 
 dence in her cross-examination by his 
 learned friend, Mp Williams. Was it 
 not also remarkable, that until the 
 third or fourth day of her examination, 
 she should have withheld those remark- 
 able appearances an the counterpane, 
 wliich, if true, were so important for 
 the purposes of the prosecution, and 
 must necessarily have been communis 
 cated to the Attorney-General in tlie 
 previous depositions of Pe Mont? 
 How did it happen, then, that the At- 
 torney-General, in his questions to the 
 witness, entirely overlooked such un- 
 questional)le proofs of the criminality 
 which it was his duty to establish ? He 
 must have had these depositions of De 
 Mont's evidence before him. How did 
 he then omit such a question.-' for 
 surely, if she could speak to such a 
 fact, she must have long before men- 
 tioned it to the agents for the prose- 
 cution. It was for his learrttd friend to 
 have explained so singular ajid extra- 
 ordinary a circumstance. Indeed the 
 adage was never more verified than in 
 the reflection which this witness's tes- 
 timony excited: — 
 
 *' CalumniatidO semper aliquid erat." 
 Though her testimony was disproved, 
 still unfortunately the experience of 
 human nature showed that sufiicieut 
 traces of the evil inflicted would long 
 remain— traces for which indeed his il- 
 lustrious client could receive no ade- 
 quate reparation, which no punish- 
 ment of the parties would atone for, no 
 time sufficiently efface. What could 
 atone for the statement of the Solicitor- 
 General, who, after reciting the false- 
 hoods (for such he was now entitled to 
 call them) of De Mont respecting the 
 princess's conduct on the night of her 
 going to the theatre at Naples, had said 
 that no man who heard him eould' 
 doubt the fact, that on that night the 
 adulterous intercourse commenced be- 
 tween her royal highness and Bergami, 
 which was afterwards continued with- 
 out intermission? When such strong 
 statements were made, il became ai- 
 most impossible for the mind to get rid 
 of the impressions which they affixed 
 upon it; the mind lingered with them 
 often, notwithstanding their contra- 
 diction in evidence J and the melan- 
 choly reflection was, that their effect, 
 so injurious at once to the feelings aad 
 peace of the object of them, survivfed 
 the «xistenoe of the base surmises upm 
 which they were founded. Never had 
 there been in the annals of any court' of 
 
336 
 
 EVIDKNeE OF THE QUEEJT. 
 
 judicature, any opening statement i)f a 
 case so miserably attempted to be sus- 
 tained by evidence as this had been— 
 never a case so satisfactorily disposed 
 of by the conclusive evidence brought 
 agaiast it. Notwithstanding this cooi- 
 plete destruction of the facts upon 
 which the bill was attempted to be 
 founded, still he repeated that his il- 
 lustriousiclient must suffer under the 
 effect of such a prosecution, however 
 satisfactory was her innocence esta- 
 blished; and her feelings must be ex- 
 posed to an indignant agitation, which 
 to her must be irreparable. The 
 learned gentleman then quoted, in il- 
 lustration of his opinion, the following 
 observation in the Quarterly Review : 
 ** To refute errors is no trivial task, for 
 the labour is not very amusing. It re- 
 quires more time and cost to repair an 
 edifice than to damage it ; and cer- 
 tainly more zeal to defend the calum- 
 niated than to raise the calumny. An 
 attack, if it deserves notice, is neces- 
 sarily lively, and our attention is raised 
 by the air of novelty it carries with it ; 
 but a defence can only boast the honest 
 intention of carrying us back to the 
 same place we had formerly occupied ; 
 and nothing short of a miraculous de- 
 monstration will so completely eradi- 
 cate a false or an aggravated charge, 
 as to leave no trace of it behind in the 
 minds of those who have long re- 
 ceived the erroneous impressions." 
 He should now come to what he con- 
 sidered the second count of the indict- 
 ment — namely that which embraced the 
 conduct of her royal highness at the 
 masked ball she gave to the then king 
 of Naples. His learned friend, in open- 
 ing that part of the case, had said that 
 when her majesty wanted to make an 
 entire chahge of her dress during that 
 ball, she retired loan inner room alone 
 with Bergami, in whose presence, 
 unassisted by any other person, she 
 changed her first dress, and put on one 
 which was highly indecent. Here again 
 he had reason to complain of his 
 learned friend, for there was nothing 
 in the evidence to sanction that state- 
 ment. Was there ever any thing so 
 disproved as this ? The Turkish dress 
 which the princess wore had nothing 
 whatever indecent in its arrangement, 
 and it was daring some part of the 
 evening, the dress of some of the prin- 
 cess's Fuite. But it was said that Ber- 
 gami, being offended at sometihng that 
 p«3sed between him and the princess, 
 
 retired from the ball— that he was fol- 
 lowed by the princess, who ineffectually 
 tried to prevail upon him to return to 
 the company, and that her royal high- 
 ness was herself obliged to leave him, 
 having failed in her entreaties. Was 
 there a single iota of evidence to sustain 
 this sta;tement? Could the princess 
 have been for three-quarters of an hour 
 absent on that night from her bati, 
 without its being observed ? Bnt, if 
 even she had been so absent, was it 
 likely she should have called her maid 
 into the arrti-room, only for the purpose 
 of listening to her vain attempts to 
 recal Bergami to the ball-room ? It 
 was said, that if De Mont has sworn 
 falsely, it wa? in the power of her ma- 
 jesty's counsel to call evidence to con- 
 tradict her. So they had, where she 
 spoke of matters to w hich a third per- 
 son was privy ; but they had no power 
 of contradicting her respecting state- 
 ments where she represented herself as 
 being the only ^ectator, except out of 
 the improbrtbility of her own story, 
 which, fortunately, where there was 
 not better evidence, was sufficiently 
 decisive. Where was the use in pur- 
 suing cross-examination to any great 
 length with a witness whose story was 
 her own invention ? To press her fur- 
 ther was only to carry her further in 
 her career of deception; for vain in- 
 deed must it appear to hope to confuse 
 her memory after a three years' re- 
 hearsal. He recollected an anecdote 
 of a particular friend, who, npon re- 
 lating a circumstance, was infonped 
 that it was not true, and told by the 
 person who made th,* observation, that 
 he knew it upon as good authority as 
 the other did. But the other replied, 
 that so he might, for that he had him- 
 self invented the circumstance, and told 
 it to that person. De Mont then was 
 like his friend, the sole inventor ; she 
 was the historian ; there was no going 
 higher than the source ; where was the 
 use of ascending above the fountain : 
 the more that the attempt was made to 
 go back farther, the brighter becamis 
 the ardor of this witness's invention. 
 It did, however, so come to pass, that 
 both Sir William Gell, in page 562 of 
 the minutes of evidence, and Mr- Cra- 
 ven in page 536, as well as Sir William 
 Gell, indeed again in page 553, clearly 
 shewed the falsehood of De Mont's 
 story of the ball scene. From this evi- 
 dence her whole story was rendered at- 
 teBable j and io page S55 it would be 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN, 
 
 337 
 
 seen that Rorgami, so far from qutttlng 
 the ball-room, had remained like the 
 other servants serving up refreshments 
 to the company during the night. The 
 Turkish dress of the princess too was 
 disposed of with equal effect ; for the 
 trowsers, as they were called, consisted 
 of a simple thread which marked a di- 
 vision in an ordinary petticoat, and had 
 nolhing in its shape bearing the smallest 
 similitude to indecency. There was 
 another point in the statement for the 
 prosecution which had been greatly 
 dwelt upon, namely, the story that the 
 princess had been seen walking arm iu 
 arm in the garden with Bergami. This 
 they had in page seven from that fa- 
 mous witness Majocchi. De Mont said 
 she only observed it once. De Mont 
 in this part of her testimony, resorted 
 to the old and dangerous artifice of en- 
 grafting her falsehood upon a small 
 portion of truth. The fact was simply 
 this J there were some trees planting 
 in the garden, and repairs going on, re- 
 specting which the princess desired to 
 give some instructions, and she went 
 into the garden among the Italian work- 
 men, accompanied by Bergami, whom 
 the princess took there to communicate 
 to the workmen, which she could not <)o 
 intelligibly in their language, the al- 
 terations she desired. Though Ber- 
 gami attended her in the garden, it was 
 false that he was arm in arm with the 
 princess. If their lordships would 
 please to refer to pp. 540, 557, and 562, 
 of the testimony of Sir William Gell 
 and Mr. Craven, they would at once 
 discover the falsehood of the charge 
 built upon the circumstance to which 
 he had just alluded, and they would 
 also tind that the princess was, at that 
 period, cauiioned by one of these gen- 
 tlemen against being seen even walking 
 as she bad walked with Bergami in the 
 garden, and informed that her most in- 
 nocent acts were liable to the greatest 
 misrepresentation, as persons were then 
 spying into her conduct with the worst 
 views. They bad also heard from the 
 same witnesses who contradicted the 
 stury of walking arm in arm, that this 
 garden was surrounded by the ncigh« 
 bouring terraces, and that, at the time 
 spoken ol, Bergami, so far from being 
 walking arm in arm with the princess, 
 was in attendance upon her, and walk- 
 ins after her as a servant after a mis- 
 tress. His learned friends in conduct- 
 ing this prosecution had repeatedly said 
 that they bad no iuterests,to stirve, ex 
 
 43 ' 
 
 cept to promote the ends of justice. 
 His learned friend, the Solicitor-Gene- 
 ral, had said that his duty was not to 
 impose or to influence by any distorted 
 statement ; all that was required of 
 him was, that he should suii) up the 
 evidence with truth and accuracy, and 
 then point out how it applied to the 
 charges upon which the bill wa«? 
 founded. If it were not expected of 
 him to incur any charge of this mis- 
 statement, still less, he hoped, was it 
 expected of him to use the slightest 
 exj)ression derogatory from the station 
 and dignity of her majesty the queen. 
 No such expressions should escape his 
 lips. Indeed, no effort had been spared 
 by counsel which ingfenuity, dexterity, 
 or management, could suggest to effect 
 their purpose., He did not complain of 
 the efforts of his liearned friends in 
 support of the bill. It was of course 
 their duty to act upon the evidence 
 submitted to them ; that evidence came 
 to them in the shape of instructions, and 
 they were bound to manage them in the 
 most dextrous way they could. His 
 learned friend, the Attorney-General, . 
 had, indeed, taken manly ground ; and 
 it was pleasant to deal with such an 
 adversary. The Solicitor-General, how- ' 
 ever, put. the case upon a different foot- 
 ing. The one promised proof of what 
 he meant to support in an authoritative 
 form; but the o^her addressed their 
 lordships in his summing up in the tone 
 of a judge instructing a jury upon the 
 facts on which they were to give in 
 their verdict. The Solicitor-General 
 said, in his summing up, that he hoped 
 he might be allowed, in conclusion, to 
 say — and he said it from the bottom of 
 his heart, and in tiie utmost sincerity- 
 he sincerely and devoutly fished, not 
 that the evidence should be confounded 
 and perplexed, but his wish was that it 
 should be the result of this proceeding i 
 that her royal highness should establish 
 to the satisfaction of their lordships, 
 and every individual in the country, 
 her full and unsullied innocence. These 
 declarations of his learned friends, the 
 eager advocate on the one side, and the 
 impartial judge on the other, shewed 
 a division of labour between them. — 
 It was as if the one had taken the 
 events of Monday, Wednesday, and ' 
 Friday, and the other those of Tuesday, 
 Thursday, and Saturday, under his'spe- 
 cial cognizance. The conclusion of 
 his learned friend, the Solicitor-Gene- 
 ral; could not fail to have struck their 
 
338 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEK. 
 
 lordsliips as btiag very remarkable 5 
 lie had prefaced it by denaonstrating, 
 as he conceived, the impossiViJity of 
 relMitdag the facts set forth in the 
 IH-osecutioiif and he had concluded with j 
 a sincere aod devout prayer that her 
 majesty mi^ht still be able to prove 
 her entire innocence. This must be 
 taken as a liappy omen, for it was the 
 first prayer that he believed hail ema- 
 nated for her majesty from any officer 
 of the kirjg'g goverament and he hoped 
 it might be considered as a happy omen, 
 which preceded the restoration of her 
 majesty's name to the office of the 
 chunch, from which it had been so im- 
 properly and illegally removed. The 
 Itaraed geatlemaa then said that he 
 would recur to the minutes of evi- 
 dence to impress still awre strongly 
 upon their lordships the glaring: in- 
 consistencies and contradictions which 
 were to be found on the wiitiutes of 
 evidence ia support of the bill. He 
 now begged to direct the attention of 
 their loiviships to what he should call 
 the third count of the charge. De 
 Moat stated that she had seen iiergami 
 ia the passage leading to the princess's 
 room. This was insisted upon as a 
 most material part of the case ; their 
 lordships would now see how the case 
 stood, as it appeared on the minutes. 
 Ia page 251 were the following ques- 
 tions : — 
 
 ■" Do yoti remember ever seeing Ber- 
 gami at night in the passage of which 
 you have maiie mention ? — 1 do^ 
 
 ** Where was her royal highness at 
 that time? — In her btdToom. 
 
 ** Was she dressed or undressed, or 
 
 ia what state ? — ^Shc was undressed. 
 " Where were you standing? — I was 
 
 near to the door oi her royal highness. 
 •** Where did you see tJergami? — 1 
 
 saw Bergami come out of his room, 
 
 and come into the passage. 
 '. ** In what direction ? towards the 
 
 princesses room, or bow ? — He was 
 
 going towards the bed-room of her 
 
 royal highness. 
 
 *' What was the state of Bergami 's 
 
 dress at the time you saw him going 
 
 towards the bed-room of lier royal 
 
 hi^ness? — He was not dressed. 
 
 *' When you say he was noi dressed, 
 
 wbat do you mean ? what had he on? 
 
 —He was not dresred at all. 
 
 " Do you remember what he had on 
 
 his feet ? —Slippers. 
 
 " Do you remember whether he had 
 
 any stcckioj^ on ?— 1 saw no stockings. 
 
 ** Had he any thing oa more than 
 his shirt? — Nothing else. 
 
 ** ^'ou have said that the princess at 
 that time was undressed ; had sihe ^t 
 into bed or not ? — She was not in bed. 
 
 *^ When you saw Bergami coming 
 along the passage in the direction of 
 her royal highness's room, in the maii« 
 «er you have described, what did you 
 do ? — 1 escaped, by tlie little door which 
 was near me, out of the apartment of 
 the princess." 
 
 This, continued Mr. Denman, was 
 the account given by De Mont ; but, in 
 her cross-examination, his learned 
 friend Mr, Williams drew from her, 
 j that she went towards Bergami instead 
 of retreating from him. She also said 
 she escaped; she never went to see 
 where ilergami was going ; but she, 
 to use her o^^u words, " escaped." 
 Was it possible, that from this cir- 
 cumstance, their lordships could be- 
 lieve that adultery was committed on. 
 that occasion ? Supposing the whole 
 of this account to be true, what v\a$ 
 there in it to shew any adulterous in- 
 tercourse between Bergami and the 
 princess more than between him and 
 any other woman ? He maintained 
 that the facts, taken in the most ex- 
 tended view, did not bear out such a 
 conclusion; and, indeed, something of 
 this kind must have been running in 
 the mind of De Mont herself when she 
 said she had escaped from Bergami. 
 Would ii, he asked their lordships, be 
 required of his illustrious client, at the 
 end of six. yeare, to give an exact ac- 
 count of the particular acts and situa- 
 tions, not only of herself, but of evety 
 one of htT suite, for all that time. 
 What was there in the fact of Bergami 
 having been seen out of his room ? If 
 I e had been seen thus circumstanced 
 in the room of her royal highness, there 
 would be no need of going further, but 
 he was only seen out of his own room ;• 
 and he demanded of their lordships, 
 whether, looking at this as it was 
 stated, was it a fact of such importance 
 that they should consent to a measure 
 which would pluck her majesty from 
 her throne because she could not ac - 
 couut for Bergami's being out of bis 
 chamber at a particular hour ? The 
 proposition w&s monstrou-. But it 
 seemed that his learned friends on the 
 other side did not themselves place 
 much reliance on this part of the story 
 as first told by De Mont, artd accord- 
 . tDgly tiiey resorted to a new mode of 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUCEPT* 
 
 339 
 
 amending thoir case ; and here be could 
 not But complain of the disingenuous 
 means to which they (the counsel for 
 the bill) had recourse on this part of 
 the case— means which he was satis- 
 fied would never have been allowed in 
 any of the courts below. It was the 
 invariable practice iu the courts below 
 that no question should be put to a 
 witness in a re-cxamination which did 
 not arise out of the cross-examination. 
 If any thing had beei omitted upon 
 questions which were to be pat in tiieir 
 re-examination, it was usual to give 
 the counsel cross-examining notice of 
 it, or to ask it through the court, but 
 in the present case no such thing was 
 done, and in the re examination his 
 learned friend, the Solicitor-General, 
 took the witness back to Naples, and 
 referring to the account «hich she 
 had given of the scene iu the passage, 
 had asked her whether she had ob- 
 served any thing done to the door (of 
 the passage) after she went out of it ? 
 To which she, whose memory was of 
 course much improved by the interval 
 of a day or two, answered, that the 
 door was shut, but not only shut, but 
 that it was shut on the inside, and that 
 she heard thp key turned in it. The 
 object of this was to sliow that Bergami, 
 hy appearing in the passage, could not 
 have intended to seek De Mont, but must 
 have intended to visit the room of her 
 rojal highness. Now he contended, 
 that there was no judge in Westminster 
 Hall who would have suffered a wit- 
 ness, two days after her examination 
 in chief, and after she had seen the 
 effect of her former evidence, thus to 
 be examined as to matter entirely new, 
 and which iu no manner arose out of 
 tie CI OSS-examination — matter, too, to 
 which she might have been prompted 
 as an adjunct to her former statement. 
 Jf such a case were to come before the 
 Juord Chief Justice, or any other judge, 
 be would instantly have prevented the 
 party from putting the question. It 
 was, however, allowed to be put here; 
 and what was before, at the most, only 
 a case of mere suspicion, was thus 
 attempted to be turned into something 
 of positive criminality. IJe felt it his 
 duty to advert to this instance as ex- 
 tremely disingenuous on the part of 
 his learned friends. He would tor the 
 present leave it, and go to another part 
 of the case, as it was his object to 
 pursue facts. He now called their 
 lordships' attention to another part of 
 
 the evidence, which was relied apOD as 
 proof of adulterous interconrse. He 
 allutled to that part where her royal 
 highness was described to have visited 
 Bergami during his illness; for even 
 illness, it seemed, was not to prevent 
 the eontintiance of this degrading con- 
 nexion. Her royal highness was said 
 to have visited Bergami's room twice 
 on this occasion, and to have remained 
 each time just long enough to have 
 yielded herself to his embraces, as it 
 was meant to be inferred. But was not 
 this part of the case fully answered by 
 the evidence of Dr. Holland? He 
 (Dr. Holland) positively swore that, 
 to his knowledge, her royal highness 
 never entered Bergami's room during 
 his illness. Was this a satisfactory 
 answer to their lordships? The next 
 statement of that wretched discarded 
 servant, Majocchi, who swore to hav- 
 ing seen her royal highness passing 
 through his room twice in the night, 
 on her way to Bei^mi's apartment, 
 would their lordships call upon him 
 to reply to this ? Good God ! if such 
 an account were to be credited, what 
 safety was there for the life or charac- 
 ter of the most innocent individual? 
 Was it credible that if her royal high- 
 ness sought Bergami*s room for the 
 purposes alleged, she would have 
 chosen to pass through the room where 
 a servant slept when she might have 
 gone through another passage ? Would 
 it be credited that she had gone through 
 the room of this servant, who was but 
 newly hired, and in whom no eonh- 
 dence could be placed ? Was it, he 
 asked, to be believed that her royal 
 highne*:s would have gone through a 
 room where there was a fire and a 
 light, and where she ran all the chance 
 of detection, and this on two occasions 
 in the night — and all this was done too 
 by a person who was said to be endea* 
 vouriug to screen her guilty coDuexion 
 with this individual ? So that, for the 
 very purpose of secresy, she went 
 where she must have been inevitably 
 detected. Would, he repeated, their 
 lordships call upon him to give any 
 reply to such a statement ? The thing 
 carried its own falsehood along with it. 
 There was, then, in support of it, the 
 account of kissing. This was men- 
 tioned as having been heard in the 
 opening si)eech^ of the Attorney-Ge- 
 neral : it was said that a witness 
 would prove the having heard kissing 
 after her royal bighoess had passed 
 
340 
 
 DEFENCE OP THE QUEEIT, 
 
 through the room. Th« throwing in a 
 few kisses was, no doubt, likely to 
 increase the proof ; but the witness 
 only heard whispering. He did not 
 hear what he might have heard, if it 
 had taken place. But why, he asked, 
 had not Dr. Holland been called in 
 support of the statement of Majocchi ? 
 Dr. Holland was in attendance on 
 Bergami, and he might have sup- 
 ported his CMajocchi's) testimony, as 
 to the visit of the queen to Bergami, 
 if it had so taken place. Why, then, 
 had not Dr. Holland been called on 
 the other side.^ After the undertaking 
 which was first given by his majesty's 
 ministers, and subsequently by the 
 law agents in conducting the prosecu- 
 tion, that all the witnesses should be 
 called who could state any circum- 
 stance connected with the case— why, 
 then, after tliose repeated undertakings, 
 had not Dr. Holland been called ? 
 Surely he Avas as respectable a wit- 
 ness as Majocchi. Why did they 
 not call for tiie testimony of those 
 respectable ladies who had attended 
 her royal highness — some of those 
 who had been placed in attendance 
 on her by her royal husband, and who 
 must have had the best opportuni- 
 ties of observing her condu t, and 
 who could have described what that 
 conduct was } The counsel for her ma- 
 jesty could have no objection to their 
 ■stating all they knew respecting her ; 
 Toyal highness's conduct ; there would j 
 he tio confidence violated. These were ■ 
 not called, but their lordships were ' 
 told that there was sufficient ground 
 for passing this bill upon what was 
 called a prima facie case, supported by 
 such detestable witnesses as he had 
 described. Their lordships had heard 
 of a secret staircase, and the inference 
 which was attempted to be drawn from 
 it. Now, he would suppose that any 
 one of their lordships were called upon j 
 to account for the arrangements of j 
 their houses and family at the distance i 
 of sixyears ! suppose they were accused i 
 of some crime connected with such ; 
 
 Guilt wajs always cautious and wary ; 
 it was scrupulous in contriving such 
 means as might continue to screen 
 itself from detection. Innocence, on 
 the contrary, confident in itself, was 
 improvident: it neglected very natu- 
 rally, to look for protection to such 
 circumstances where no danger could 
 be apprehended. Jt was not therefore 
 to be expected that an innocent person 
 could be prepared to enter iikto a detail 
 of every circumstance connected with 
 his conduct; and least of all, could 
 it be fairly required in such a case as 
 the present. Jt was sworn by Ma- 
 jocchi that Bergami dined at the table 
 wjth her royal highness at Genoa, and 
 every day after. Now this circum- 
 stance was most positively conttadictcii 
 by not less than three most respectable 
 witnesses. It was contradicted by Dr. 
 Holland in page 619, by lieutenant 
 Hownam in page 702, and by lord 
 Glenbervie in page 511. Here were 
 three positive contradictous by wit- 
 nesses whom it was impossible to sus- 
 pect. What did this prove? Did it 
 
 arrangements, and without notice of 
 the places or particulars of such accu- 
 sation, could they point out accurately 
 what those arrangements were after 
 the lapse of such time ? Ou^t any 
 one, under such circumstances, to be 
 convicted because they w ere unable 
 to give such particulars ? The greater 
 
 not clearly show to their lordships that 
 this wretched man (Majocchi) was de- 
 termined to do something worthy of 
 his hire — something which would be 
 a sort of return for the payment he re- 
 ceived ? He therefore swore to what 
 he knew must have been false ; and 
 was this palpable perjury to te an- 
 swered ? Was this man's credit to be 
 bolstered up by such remarks as had 
 been made by the tolicitor-General oh 
 what his learned friend had said re- 
 speciiug the frequent ** uon mi ri- 
 cordos." Neither he nor his learned 
 friend objected to Majocchi's want of 
 recollection : they did not blame him 
 for his forgetfulness alone (for any 
 man's niemi>ry might be frail) ; but 
 i Majoc«hi's memory was remarkably 
 j acute — his recollection of times and 
 j places was rao-^tasiouishing. He spoke 
 i to the most minute circumstances of 
 i time and place, fur a series of years, 
 but this recullertion was all on one 
 side. On the other he could recollect 
 [nothing — no, not even the most re- 
 markable factb ; all were lost to bis 
 I memory when he came to be cross- 
 ] examined. This was the reason why 
 his learned fiiend (Mr. Brougham) had 
 I dwelt so much and so justly upon his 
 j non mi ricordos. It was here that Ma- 
 t joccbi gave the most decided negative 
 
 the innocence of the party, the greater I i'?,^'»^,^''"*^^ "| '^'l."^" ^t'^ry, for he 
 would he the difficulty of a>rovijig it. (^^' l>e«tt»au) believed that m the 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 341 
 
 whole course of hi ; hfe he had uever 
 met iu any court a witness whose evi- 
 dence was so completely demolished 
 by himself, as was that of this man. 
 This was the contradiction which their 
 lordships would weigh. Iu every case 
 where he spoke of what took place iu 
 the presence of a third party he was 
 contradicted, hut who could contradict 
 him ; who could disprove that which 
 he swore he aloue saw ? Hew was it 
 possihle to say that he was not, as he 
 said, half asleep, when he saw her 
 royal highness enter his room ? What 
 did their lordships think of the ac- 
 curacy of this man's memory when 
 asked as to the having received money 
 from Lord St< wart. ** f rememher to 
 have received no money when I arrived 
 at Milan ; I remember 1 did tfot ; 
 • non so.* I do not know * piu no,' 
 more no than yes — * non mi ricordo,' 
 I do not remember." Was this au-i 
 Ewer a proof of a frail memory ? or 
 did it not show that the witness who 
 had so sworn, was anxious to do some- 
 thing to earn the money he had re- 
 ceived, by giving his wretched depo- 
 sition in support of this case ? He (Mr. 
 Deuman) would not now go into this 
 part further. He would afterwards 
 have to call their lorpships attention to 
 what he should show was a conspi- 
 racy. It was not necessary for him 
 to go into detail with every circum- 
 stance respecting this man's testi- 
 mony ; but there was one to which 
 he wished to call their lordships* at- 
 tention. They had heard the seeming 
 accuracy with which he had described 
 the bed-rooms in several places through 
 which her royal highness had passed ; 
 but at Civita Vecchia, Porto Ferrajo, 
 Rome, and several other places, he 
 could give no accouBt whatever of the 
 disposition of the rooms. If this al- 
 leged adulterous intercourse were still 
 followed up, it must have led to si- 
 milar dispoiitious of the apartments, 
 as it was manifest that it could not 
 have been carried on in open day ; but 
 of such dispositions Majucchi * could 
 uot recollect one word. This was the 
 frailty of memory, the wilful and cor- 
 rupt forget fulness of which his learned 
 friends had complained. There was 
 one part of the case which had nearly 
 escaped his recoliectioo ; ihehr lord- 
 ships would bear in mind, ;Lat in the 
 openin*; statement of the Auomey-Ge- 
 u«rral, great stress was laid ou the 
 scene which was said tu have taken 
 
 place at the theatre of San Carlos. 
 Her royal highness was described to 
 have beeu so indeceutly attired as to 
 excite the indiguation of some of the 
 compauy present. What, however, 
 did this turn out to be ? What was 
 De Alout's account of it ? She stated, 
 not that the dress was grossly indecent, 
 but that her royal highness was co- 
 vered up in an ugly dress, and, being 
 surrounded by a number of disagree- 
 able masks, they had left the theatre. 
 But what said his learued friend the 
 Solicitor-General to this ? He had 
 asked, ** Could De Mont have invented 
 her account ?" He (Mr. Denman) 
 said she did invent, add that her story 
 was nothing but invention. They hail 
 proved her falsehood where it was 
 possible she could be contradicted. 
 They had proved it in her account of 
 gettmg leave of absence' from Como, 
 But, said the Solicitor-General — and 
 he (Mr. Deuman) had heard the ob- 
 servation repeated by other sagacious 
 persons out of doors — this could not be 
 a conspiracy, for it had uot gone far 
 enough. He maintained that, if it 
 were true, it had gone far enough : and 
 the circumstance of having omitted 
 some parts, iu particular situations, 
 arose solely from this — that the wit- 
 nesses were afraid to tell what they 
 knew might be within the knowledge 
 of others. He had heard it said, that 
 it was always a matter of great diffi- 
 culty to prove the fact of adultery 
 itself. Iu general, a corjms delicti was 
 a matter of inference from the circum- 
 stances of the case. He denied that iu 
 any case the fact coulcl be inferred 
 from such evidence as the present; 
 but iu no case could it be more clearly 
 proved than in this, if it had ever 
 exi&ted. This chambermaid, who was 
 so willing to swear against her mis- 
 tress, must have had opportunities of 
 knowing if it had occurred. Indeed, 
 this seemed to Xiave been felt on the 
 other side; and De Mont, when she 
 came to mend her evidence, "-j-okc of 
 having seen staius on the bed. h liiis 
 were tt-ue, why had they uot ca-Icti ihe 
 persou who had made the bed for two 
 m^uihs before ? Why was uot Annette 
 Prcisiug produced, whose evidence 
 would have been most material to 
 this point ? Did their lordships suppose 
 that those agents who had collected 
 toother a set of her majesty's dis- 
 carded servants, who had rau^iacked 
 filthy clothes bags, who had raked iulo 
 
S42 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEIf. 
 
 every sewer, pried iijto every water* 
 closei, wlio attcinpied to tVestnw ail 
 the secrecies of private life, whi> had 
 wruug lUe feelr»{;.s of a lady of raok 
 and respectability by n»aking her, at 
 that bar, confess her poverty, and the 
 crabar/assments of her hu«iband — who 
 had interfered with i)rivate family con- 
 cerns, so far as to produce a letter .id 
 dressed by her ta that husband; did 
 their lordships imagine that they who 
 had resorted to such mean and filthy 
 practices wjidd have !>tof>pett short at 
 producing such a witness as Annette 
 Preiiing if they thought that she would 
 liave borne out the testimony of De 
 Mont ? No ; they rested u})on that 
 testimony, of which he would say no 
 jnore at that moment, than that, if 
 l)roui;ht before any honest court of 
 justice, it would have been scouted out. 
 He now proceeded to her majesty's 
 journey to Genoa, Catania, and several 
 other places. A circnrastauce was said 
 to liave occurred at Catania, which was 
 allej^ed to be decisive of the case, as it 
 proved the fact of adultery. Her royal 
 ijighnes* was said to have been seen 
 cominj;^ out of Bergami's r<Jom with 
 pillows under her arm. This rested on 
 the testimony of De Mont ; and it was 
 surprising how in thi>, as well as in 
 every other part of the case, she so 
 shaped her story as to prevent her 
 being contradicted by others. When 
 asked who was in the room with her at 
 this lime, she answered, ber sister j 
 and, when asked another question, she 
 expressed a doubt as to ber sister 
 being in the rooni at that time. He 
 took that to be decisive against the 
 truth of her story. It was impossible 
 that she should nut have known whe- 
 ther there was or was not another 
 woman with her when the circum- 
 stance occurred. This was the only 
 fact where ber sister could be called 
 upon, and thereforei^be left the matter 
 in doubt, because, if Marietti were 
 railed, she (De Mont) mii^ht observe 
 that it was a matter tljat liad escaped 
 ber recollection. Thus the whole of 
 this part c)f the case rested iipon her- 
 self. She de-cribed her royal highness 
 as having appeared confused and 
 alarmed at being seen by her in that 
 situation; and she stated that her 
 royal highness had not spoken to her, 
 as she was accustomed to do. But 
 V hy should her, royal highness have 
 been confused ? Why should she ap- 
 j)ear alarv«ed at being seen thus by a 
 chambcvmuid; vtUo hud been makiuij 
 
 her bed for months before, and mfi» 
 must have been aware, according to 
 her own account, of otber cireuwi- 
 stanees still more suspicious ? But 
 the whole of this story was an inven- 
 tion of this woman, of whom he would 
 say nothing more at present^ but that 
 there was no part of her testiraony en- 
 tilled to the slightest credit. And now,, 
 leaving those two pillars of this ease 
 vouching for each other, he would 
 con>e to another pohit of this proceed- 
 ing, which would shew to their lord- 
 ships that her royal highness had l>een 
 made the victim of perjury and con- 
 spiracy, by those Italian witnesses, 
 who had come over here to dethrone a 
 queen on account of her moral con- 
 duct. The word conspiracy seemed 
 to excite a feeling of horror aroong^ 
 their lordships, as if siicb a thing bad 
 never beca i>eard of — he would not 
 say in Italy — hut even in England, and 
 by Englishmen. Since their lordahip& 
 had commenced their sitting in thi& 
 extraordinary prosecution, within the 
 last few weeks, two cases of conspi- 
 racy were tried in GMildhall, London. 
 One was that of Miss Glenn, a young 
 lady who had sworn to an attempt, on 
 the part of a yoimg man, aided by 
 several of his relations, forcibly to con- 
 vey her away, for the purpose of 
 forcibly marrying her. This young 
 woman underwent a long and minute 
 examination; and, when the judge was 
 abottt to sum up the evidence, the 
 foretnan of the jury, who, be believed, 
 was Mr, Bankes, the member of par- 
 liament, declared to the court that 
 there wa^ no necessity, because the 
 jury were unanimously of opinion that 
 the ease was fully eatablisbed, and they 
 accordingly returned a verdict, by 
 which six or seven persons were con- 
 demned. A new trietl was afterwards 
 moved for, and affidavits having being 
 heard on both sides that application was 
 refused. At last the parties tiled a bill 
 ofindrctmentagainstMissGlenuandher 
 servant for wilful and corrupt perjury. 
 The case was tried a few days ago atid 
 Miss Gleun and her servants were con- 
 victed on the clearest pt)8sible evidence. 
 Justice was now, alas, about to be done 
 to the injured,parties ; but it came too 
 late to save the life of one of them, the 
 sister of the young man, who had been 
 tried and convicted with bim, and who 
 had ultimately sunk under her misfor- 
 tunes. It came too late to retrieve the 
 injury done to I heir affairs, but he tnsted 
 it did nut come too late to operate U9 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 343 
 
 <fc«if Iwdeiaps; 1o show them that a 
 coitspiracy b> persmis respecrable in 
 life, much kss hy £taUaa viluesses, 
 was not iiiipossibie, a«ati that evidence 
 •uijjht be st» ijot uj* as h>v a lime lu <Jes- 
 troy tbe charatier cf iuuooeiit iiwlivi- 
 diials. There was auother case lo 
 which he mi<,'ht call tbe attention of 
 tijeh- K)rdshij)&, the case of a prosecu- 
 ti.)U iu which he hliuself had been 
 <ni,'^aj;ed, and wbicli was tried in the 
 ci.urt of Kiuij's-beuch ag;aii)st certain 
 individiialj, for a conspiracy to set up 
 a sbaiu conuMission oi' baukraptcy. It 
 <was tfce case «f the •* Kinjj v, Cohen," 
 4iud abundant evidence was there pro- 
 rtl^iced that teu who were convicted, 
 and others who escaped, were iu th« 
 <lai^y babil of Ealse-sweariti^, and of 
 roceiviu^ motiey as the consJderatii><i 
 for false testimony, Tiiis happened iu 
 liiii«jlaiid, where the same persons wer« 
 atierwar.ds liable to detection, and 
 aiii^hi be brought to leij^al punishnaent. 
 Jt was oa that occasioa demonstrated 
 that witnesses might he hired as readily 
 as lodgings might be hired at the west 
 «ud of the to«ru. But it was impassible 
 that their lordships should have for- 
 gotten the case of Elizabeth Canning, 
 •and the eroud of witnesses who tli«n 
 testified solemnly to what was grossly 
 false. The same remark was applica- 
 ble (o the case of Titus Oates, whom he 
 Was content lo consider as the hero of 
 a poera only, but with reference to 
 -whom he might be permitted to allude 
 to a period when the then duke of 
 York was in a state of doubt whether 
 lie would or would not cast off the 
 wife, the daughter of lord Clarendon, 
 with whom hy had claudesiinely con- 
 coutracted marriage. In the ** Me- 
 moirs of the Count de Grammout," it 
 was stated that marriage, or at least 
 cohabition, had taken place between 
 the parties. What did all this imply, 
 hut that agents might always be found 
 to gratify the low^jst passions wiiich 
 unfortunate princes, or individuals in 
 high places, were disposed to indulge? 
 It was undeniable that the facts al- 
 ledged iu evidence against queen Anne 
 Boleyn wet'C stated as distinctly — in- 
 deed much more distinctly~~than were 
 the circumstances in the testimony 
 produced in support of this bill. It 
 was altogether evidence much stronger 
 and uiore unexceptionable. But, with- 
 out dwelling on the events of a period 
 6o remote as that of Henry Vlli. how- 
 ever similar some of thuse evevts might 
 
 be to the transactions and business of 
 the pre^jent day, he would now advert 
 to a period within the recollection of 
 them all — to what passed, iu fact, iu 
 the year \dUG. Toe result of au inquiry 
 into charges atiecting her majesty's 
 character at that time was to cover her 
 accusers with infamy and shame. Their 
 lordships, i» iking back to that inves- 
 tigation, must of ue!;essity coufemplate 
 the process now going on with tUe ut- 
 most jealousy autl care. When it had 
 plea><?d his present majesty's govern- 
 ment to sepaiate the mother [irom the 
 daughter, was it not upon record that 
 this decision was fouuded on perjury 
 and suboruati )n? Mow otherwise were 
 they to undej stand the minute of 
 c nmcil drawn up, or at least dated in 
 Feb. 1B13, and in which the Utter o£ 
 her royal highness, charijiug the exis- 
 tence of *' suborned traducers," was 
 alluded to? it was felt by her royal 
 highness's advisers to be their houn- 
 den duty to declare that there had been 
 suborned traducers, but that an illus- 
 trious persons stood acquitted of the 
 subornation. Without charging any 
 conspiracy now, he would venture to 
 say, that if any place or country was 
 to be selected or preferred as the scene 
 of a conspiracy, and that the seiectioa 
 and preference were judiciously made, 
 the scene would certainly be in Italy. 
 It was there that the means presented 
 themselves — it wiS there that ctmning 
 and artifice thrived — there that a 
 price was openly set upon au oath 
 — there that every infamous pur- 
 pose might by bril)ery be carried 
 into eft'eci. They were now inquiring 
 into the transactions of six years, and 
 guided only by the light of Italian evi- 
 dence. Could they as men of the 
 world, as men acquainted with history, 
 imagine for one moment that the iu- 
 forniatjon given to them by witnesses 
 for the prosecution was not given with 
 the countenance of ituntediate favor, 
 and the hope of further reward ! He 
 would refer them at prescut to the evi- 
 dence as to what passed at Savona, 
 and in the course of which it was 
 sworn that two persons had certainly 
 slept m one bed there. The only. 
 ground upon which this fact was stated 
 was a former deposi tion of De Mont, and 
 which was utterly unsupported^ by 
 her testimony at their lordships* bar. 
 So with regard to the allegations of an 
 illicit and adulterous intercourse taking 
 place at Varies and at Lugaao^ ao wit- 
 
344 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 ness from Lugano had been called : he 
 ., meant not to cast blame on his learned 
 friends on the other side, but he did 
 think they ought to have been prepared 
 with that branch of the evidence before 
 they made the charges which, in pur- 
 suance of their instructions they had 
 felt themselves obliged to make. The 
 riot, as it had been called, which took 
 place at Dover, happened in June last ; 
 and how was it that his learned friends, 
 during the long interval between June 
 and the seventh of September, had ne- 
 glected to reassure the spirits of their 
 witnesses, and discover some opportu- 
 nity of bringing them over in safety ? 
 Material witnesses might sometimes 
 be lost by accident, but was it credible 
 that accidents had operated here ? his 
 learned friends on the other side, with 
 all their ability, had failed in one of 
 their chief attempts — that of proving 
 guilty conduct on the part of her majes- 
 ty the queen at Naples. It was with 
 a great degree of confidence, that he 
 now proceeded to examine more mi- 
 nutely the character and nature of the 
 exidence* on both sides. He would, 
 however, previously remind their loid- 
 ships of a passage in Roger North's 
 life of his brother. Sir Dudley North, 
 a merchant in Turkey, and in which it 
 is observed, on the ground of the 
 Turkish merchant's experience, that 
 ** before the Cadi false evidence was a 
 much surer ground to go upon than 
 true, for a witness of plain honesty 
 would not stand under the captious 
 questions which were sometimes put 
 to him.'* It was remarkable that in 
 all the humourous scenes described 
 by our great dramatic poet, whenever 
 he had occasion to paint the character 
 / of a man anxious to blacken the repu- 
 tation of an innocent wife, he chose 
 his scene in Italy. In one of his pro- 
 ductions it was represented that a thou- 
 sand ducats was given at Messina for 
 the evidence of a person vfho was to 
 swear away the honor of a woman. 
 Their lordships might do well to refer 
 to the character as there developed. 
 The passage which he now alluded to 
 was as follows :— " Which be the male- 
 factors ?" ** Marry that am 1 and my 
 partner." " Now write you down that 
 be says he lias received a thousand du- 
 cats for accusing the lady Hero wrong- 
 fully." " Marry, Sir, they have com- 
 mitted false report ! moreover they 
 have spoken untruths ; secondarily, they 
 uic s'.iiuderers J sixth aud lastly, they 
 
 have belied a lady ; thirdly, they have 
 verified uiyust things, and, to conclude, 
 they are lying knaves, (a laugh). He 
 hoped this last quotation would not 
 be considered altogether inapplicable, 
 takeu as it was from the last act of a 
 celebrated comedy, called *' Much Ado 
 about Nothing." (a laugh). He now 
 came, however, t.> a closer examination 
 of the evidence — evidence of a kind 
 which had never before been so amply 
 remunerated. It appeared upon their 
 minutes that Gargiulo's vessej had been 
 hired by her majesty, with all its crew, 
 at the rate of 750 dollars per month ; 
 this in fact, was the sum to be paid for 
 the use, and the exclusive use of Gar- 
 giulo's ship. But the captain, being in 
 the employment of a royal person, 
 looked forward to something else, and 
 limited his expectations to a sum of 
 6,000 dollars. Disappointed in those 
 expectations— and through the means 
 of Bergami — coming over to this coun- 
 try to enforce his claims, was it not 
 probable that he should consider the 
 attainment of his object as likely to be 
 facilitated by the evidence which he 
 gave on this occasion ? It was idle to 
 suppose that any witness for a pro- 
 secution of this nature would come for- 
 •ward with a mind perfectly unbiassed. 
 On that account alone it became ne- 
 cessary to require evidence the most 
 pure and the most unsuspicious that 
 could be obtained. An improper in- 
 tercourse was alleged to have taken 
 place between her majesty and Ber- 
 gami, or rather it was alleged that 
 they were observed silting together on 
 a sofa, and under an awning, with a 
 view to that improper inten ourse. If 
 this representation were true, the par- 
 ties could not have adopted a surer 
 mode of proclaiming to the world what 
 their intention and purpose were.— 
 Kisses aud caresses were spoken to, 
 and really such evidence deserved the . 
 pay which had been received for it. 
 But how was it that only the captain 
 and the mate, the uncle aud the ne- 
 phew, should appear to corroborate a 
 story of this kind? Was it not pro- 
 bable that the uncle had said to his re- 
 lative — ** There never was a happier 
 prospect for the family; here is al- 
 ready an allowance offered of 800 dol- 
 lars a mouth for yourself; and, as for 
 me, I am to receive a thousand ?" He 
 put it thcB to their lordships, whether 
 evidence given under such circumstan- 
 ces ought not to be admitted with sus- 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEX. 
 
 345 
 
 fkion and distrust ? *' Come to | 
 Eijjlaud with me," quoth the tiiicle, 
 *' there is a process j^oiiij^ oii which 
 will coiiiitiue at lfa*.t lor a year, and in 
 which yon and 1 may he material vtit- i 
 iie-;8e9." It was very singular that ! 
 they, and they ah)nc of ajl the iitdi- i 
 viduals heh)i)sjin^ to the pnlacca, . 
 slumld be called t«» speak to the in- 
 decent acts mentioned in their evi- 
 <ieiice. The crew was composed of 
 tweniy-two persons, and not »)ne of 
 them appeared to ccmfirm the story 
 told by the captain and his mate. 
 He would contend hefore their lord- 
 ships thai the ab^enpe of all that 
 crew was in i;self proof of criminality 
 ou the part of the pri>secniion ; and 
 was ia itself an accjHitial uf her ma- 
 jesty. It was a most shameful thin^ 
 to have drav\n any g;ro5s inferences 
 to ilie prejudice of her majesty, with- 
 out prevjuubly examining lieutenant 
 Flynii, who was on board the pulacca 
 at the same time. When it was re- 
 presented too that English ladies and 
 jfentlemen were driven from the so- 
 ciety of her royal highness in Italy, by 
 prevaleoi rumours and reports, ii was 
 obviously incumbent on the other 
 side to bring those Eu;;lish persons 
 forward to render their testimoJiy as 
 to the foundation and authority for 
 such rumours. How could they other- 
 wjie trace such reports to their origin? 
 There was no judge in this country 
 who would allow the statement of 
 rumours to be put in evidence against 
 any man standing upon his deliverance 
 before a jury. His first observation 
 would be, that such rumours might 
 be the offsj)ring of malice, and of 
 feelings in which the prosecution itself 
 had originated. Some might listen 
 to them with a servile readiness of 
 belief; but he would repeat before 
 their lordships, that the evidence of 
 lieutenant Flynn ought to have been 
 taken before this prosecution was in- 
 stituted. He had been taken on 
 board the polacca, not because her 
 royal highness wished to avoid Eng- 
 li>.h society, but because she wished 
 that an Englishman should be about 
 her on a voyage with a Sicilian crew. 
 She had therefore applied to Captain 
 liriggs for an English oflicer to attend 
 her. Her voyage from Syracuse to 
 Jaffa was then undertaken, and on the 
 journey afterwards to Ephesus, no 
 impropriety was alleged to have taken 
 place. Majocchi was the only witness 
 
 to thU part of the caee : he described 
 her roynl highness and IWg^mi «)il 
 the vestibule of all ancient ruin, but 
 neitherDe Mont nor Gaigiulo gave any 
 confirmation to his statement He 
 would now proceed to call tluir at- 
 tention to page 705 of their printed 
 minutes of evidence ; to a part, iu 
 fact, of the evidence of lieutenant 
 How nam. 
 
 Lord LAUDERDALE aow rose, 
 and suggested that a short delay migkt 
 be coi;venient and necessary to t'te 
 counsel, to do adequate ji 8 ice to the 
 defence,— Mr. Denmau, in •onse- 
 queuce, retired fur three quarters of 
 an hour. 
 
 Mr. DENMAN, on his return^ then 
 resumed : He would, he said, proceed 
 to draw their lordahips* attention to 
 the period to which he Aas oUuding 
 when they were good enough to allow 
 him to retire from the bar for a shitrt 
 time. At that period her royal high- 
 ness was about to carry into cxecuti >n 
 a design she had long formed for 
 visiting the Archipelago, the Grecian 
 Islands, the ruins of Alliens, and Jeru,- 
 salem. On that occcsiou she hir«d a 
 polacc^ in Sicily, which carried her 
 out to Jaffa, and afterwards brought 
 her back to Italy, In the course of 
 her journey to Jerusalem, she was fre- 
 quently obliged to rest in a tent, which 
 was carried from place to place, for 
 that purpose. She was, at this time, 
 in a foreign land, surrounded by fo- 
 reign attendants, exposed to danger 
 from the uncivilized inhabitants — aijd, 
 thus sUuated, she was reduced to con- 
 siderable hardships'— not imaginary 
 hardships, proceeding from fear, but 
 real and unavoidable didiculties. Lu 
 the midst of those hardships she lived 
 on what he would call terms of delight- 
 ful familiarity with all those wht> ac- 
 companied her. In the course of the 
 day, after the fatigues of the Journey, 
 which was performed in the uighi- 
 time, were over, she rested under the 
 tent of which he had just adverted ; 
 and his learned fi lends, who supported 
 the bill, had made it a prominent part 
 of their case that she bad reposed 
 under the tent in one bed, whilst Uer- 
 gami, in the same tent, reposed ou 
 another. This was one of those, facts 
 which illustrated, more clearly than 
 another, the necessity of exercising 
 that caution, in viewing this ca$e» 
 which he had endeavoured to infuse 
 I into their lordships' minds ; becftHse 
 
 I 44 
 
346 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 it was qiwle clear that the fact nu«;ht 
 be stated in such a ipaniicr as to raise 
 the suspicion of <juilt in the first in- 
 stance ; but l;e {hon;^ht it was equally 
 clear when tlie real slate of the fact 
 was nnadc Known, that, for this .siis- 
 picioa of g'.iilt, nut the smallest foun- 
 dation, in truth ami honesty, could be 
 pointed out. During the two days and 
 a half in which this jaurney was per- 
 formed, Majocchi told their lordsliips 
 that her royal hi^hne^s and Berg'ami 
 rested under this tent. But he had 
 omitted a matter of e^reat importance — 
 he had otiiitled the essential fact, 
 "whicli other witnesses had spoken to ; 
 namely, that the countess of Oldi was 
 also under this tent, and that the child 
 Victorine was almost constantly there. 
 Majocchi had likewise, in his direct 
 examination, passed over another fact, 
 which was afterwards disclosed in his 
 cross-examination — the important fact 
 tliat he, Majocchi, and another servant, 
 •were in the habit of taking; re.t in a 
 second tent, contiguous to that which 
 her royal hi^rhness occupied, and which 
 commanded a view of all that passed 
 there. How long at a time she re- 
 iriained on horseback during this jour- 
 nley, Majocchi, that honest witness, 
 could not state. It might, he said, be 
 two hours, or it might be many more. 
 But the fact, as stated by lieutenant 
 Hownam, placed the circumstance in 
 its true light. He had told their lord- 
 ships that her royal highness was very 
 much fdtigued by her exertions on this 
 journey — that she wanted support to 
 prevent her from falling from the 
 animal on which she rode— that she 
 proceeded with a great deal of labour 
 and diflficuHy, and that, more than 
 oiat^e, she had fallen asleep on her way: 
 the consequence was, the moment the 
 party encamped, she retired to rest 
 in the lent. Under these circum- 
 stances, was it possible that he should 
 be called on to argue that this was 
 not a case of adultery .' Was it pos- 
 sible that one mind could be found so 
 unchariiable, so uncandid, so unjust, 
 as to adhere merely to the words in 
 which a fact might be related, while it 
 lost sight of the bona fide meaning and 
 intent of the transaction referred to ? 
 He defied any honest man to l^iy his 
 hand on his heart, and, haviug con- 
 sidered the circumstances, to say that 
 adultery was committed on this journey 
 by land. Ha should, he conceived, 
 uselessly waste their lordships* time by 
 
 fartlier observations on this point. 
 Not but that attempts had been made 
 on the other side, by ihe introduction 
 of other circumstances, to prove cri- 
 minality here. But the failure i>f those 
 attemj'ts was evident ; they onlysliowed 
 that the facts were not sufiiciently 
 strong to sustain* a criminal charge, 
 and that the proofs advanced were not 
 of such a nature ai could iuduce their 
 lordships to come to the conclusion 
 that a guilty intercourse had taken 
 place. Were the beds regularlj made ? 
 or were they regularly prepared ? that, 
 he believed, was his learned friend's 
 expression, |to lead to a belief that 
 what was understood by a regular 
 preparation of beds, in matrimonial 
 cases, occurred in that which they 
 were now considering. But the pre- 
 paration here was of a diflferent kind. 
 Though the beds were prepared, there 
 were no bed-clothes, no curtains, no 
 bed-linen. They were made in no 
 sense like that in whicl^ his learned 
 friends would wish their lordshipsjto 
 su))pose J and beyond this those two 
 parties, who were said to have retired 
 under a tent for a criminal purpose, 
 lay at a distance from each other, 
 clothed, entirely clothed — her royal 
 highness throwing off her exterior ha- 
 biliments, and putting on a green pe- 
 lisse ; and the other party throwing otf 
 his exterior habit, and putting on a 
 blue dressing-gown ; still, with only 
 this alteration, retaining precisely the 
 same dress which each of iheqi had* 
 worn duriijg the journey. Miss De 
 Mont Viad taken great pains to repre- 
 sent thisundressing, as it was called, 
 in the strongest possible manner — she , 
 had endeavoiired to show that this was 
 proof of an improper intercourse be- 
 tween these two individuals. She had 
 pointed them out as taking off their 
 clothes, and retiring to a private place 
 for adidterous purposes. But, froip 
 the whole of her cross-examination, it 
 appeared that this daily encampment * 
 was conducted with as much iuuo- . 
 cence, with as much propriety, and 
 with as much purity as could distin- 
 guish the proceedings of any two iudi->_ 
 viduals in the world, even if they re- , 
 posed under separate roofs. He" now 
 came to the polacca ; and he eould 
 assure their lordships that it was with 
 no small satisfaction became to that ^ 
 part of the case ; because he thought - 
 it was most perfectly clear that there 
 was no mure ground to suppose that 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QtJlil^X. 
 
 34? 
 
 any Hlicit connexion had taken place 
 'ht'ft>re her luyal lii-rhufss embarked on 
 board lli^t polacca, than there was 
 lor nny one of their lordships to ima- 
 {;ine thai any foniaK' vl his lamily 
 whom he had left at hou^e I bat morn- 
 inir, had been ^niiiy of uch a crinn', 
 merely becau^^e she liad au ('{'poriuuiiy 
 of d»>in;^ so. lithe whole of the scenes 
 ai Naples were tie^^atived — if the fonn- 
 dation on which they re<;te<j were 
 proved to be untenable — f it were 
 n«t only made perfectly clear tiiat 
 the imputations raised on those facts 
 were not borne out by them, but that 
 base falsehoods had been uttered, that 
 worst species of falsehood, which gave 
 the appe-Arance of truth to that which 
 was known to be a lie ; if that were the 
 case, then he would contend that her 
 royal highness set her foot on bo.ird the 
 polacca,"* without one single taint of 
 su-^piciou as to any thing that had oc- 
 curred before — he meant with respect 
 to the facts that were imputed to her 
 royal highness as crimes. Jfe alluded 
 not to any supposed offence connected 
 with the elevation of a party implicated 
 — a subject on which, however, he 
 would iiereaf er expatiate; observing 
 only at the present tnomeiif, that it 
 was utterly impossible for their lord- 
 ships to argue, that the fact of that 
 Individual's elevation was alone suffi- 
 cient to guide them in their decision ; 
 for, if it were sufficient, there would 
 have been no use in this protracted in- 
 quiry — there would have been no ne- 
 cessity for going into a statement of all 
 
 V that had happened vrhile her royal 
 highness was travelling ; it would have 
 been enough to have said, *' this pro- 
 motion has taken place— that cinum- 
 slance is sufficient ;" and it would have 
 i)een wasting the time of their lord- 
 
 , ships improperly, unnecessarily, and 
 indecently, to enter a detail of ti ose 
 Tacts which had been laid before the 
 house. He had a right to say this of 
 her rojal highness, that, if there were 
 truth in argument, if there were just- 
 ness in inferen(e, her royal highness 
 stepped on board that ^lolacca without 
 any cause for doubt, without any ground 
 jfor suspicion. What the conduct of 
 her royal highness was, after leaving 
 the polacca, he would hereafter remariv 
 on J but, if their lordships were satis- 
 fied that neither before her royal high- 
 ness went on board the polacca, nor 
 after she quitted it, there was any cir- 
 cumstance from which a fair and un- 
 
 prejudiced mind would draw an infer- 
 ence of guil», then he called on them, 
 in this important ca?e of dethronemeijt 
 and degradation, where the evidfnC|e 
 ought to be as clear and as conclusive 
 as the facts were alarming and the pu- 
 nishment severe, to consider seriously, 
 whether the mere possibility of criini- 
 nality having existed on board the po- 
 lacca should lead th«?m to decide that 
 this adulterous connexion was roade 
 out ? The fitting up of the vessel took 
 place while her royal highness was on 
 shore : with that she had nothing to do. 
 At first she slept in her cabin, accord- 
 ing to the arrangement that had been 
 previously made ; but, in the course of 
 the voyage home, very soon after her 
 royal highness had gone on board, 
 some of the hor.-cs, or other aninials 
 that were in the vessel, became trou- 
 blesome, and on this account, as well 
 as on account of the heat that was ex- 
 ]ierienced below, her royal highness 
 thought proper to take her station at 
 nijfht on the deck. Now, he would 
 ask, if her majesty had been the blind 
 victim of a guilty passion for this man, 
 was this the course she would have 
 pursued.' Was it to be believed that 
 a circumstance of thig nature— a trifling 
 inconvenience ~ would induce her to 
 stop the tide of irresistible passion, to 
 withdraw f^om his secret and secure 
 embraces, in situations where no eye 
 could behold what passed, and to trans- 
 fer herself to the deck, subject to the 
 observation of the captain, in the 
 neighbourhood of rlie steersman, and 
 open to the remarks of etery sailor in 
 the vessel ? Could it be supposed th^t 
 she would, in suih a situation, plape 
 h^rs^lf ijnder a tent, for the purpose 
 of carrying on a guilty correspondence;? 
 A tent! P, no! any miUtary officer 
 who Jieard him would correct him and 
 say, "This was not a close tent — it 
 was not that clo?e pnd small chamber 
 —that confined and private recess, 
 under which such acts could he per- 
 formed." This was the fact. It was 
 the awnirig of the deck, hanging 
 loosely around, covering a large space 
 — the bed of the queen and that of 
 Bergami, or rather the bed and sofa 
 on >\liich they rested, were ])laccd at> 
 distance from each other; and, what 
 iievar should he forgotten, the hatch- 
 way \Y*^s always opm. '1 his last fact 
 was of the greatest importance— bfe- 
 q^V^e, i^ th^ ^)xir^]^;^tjpn ia. ^hjH^**^ 
 
348 
 
 BBFENCB OF TUB QUEEN. 
 
 Majocchi, he said, that the tent was 
 never open at night— that it wa« en- 
 tirely closed, shut up ; but it was ex- 
 tracted on cross-examination, and the 
 fact was substantiated by other wit- 
 nesses, that the hatchway was always 
 open, and all who passed above, or 
 below, or along the hatchway, could 
 know what was doing. The parties 
 were sleeping as in a camp on land. 
 Could it be supposed, for one instant, 
 that this awning could have been used 
 for the i»urpose of an improper inter- 
 course, which his learned friends in- 
 ferred f.om circumstances which did 
 not at all warrant it? They were told 
 that ihis improper intercourse took 
 place in the day time, and that the 
 awning was let down during the day. 
 He knew not how to deal with this. 
 Jf the awning was let down during the 
 day, what was it but a challenge to all 
 to see — he would not say the use made 
 of it — but it was an open exposure of 
 the mode of lying in the beds, and of 
 the purpose for which those beds were 
 occupied by night as well as by day. 
 The period during which her majesty 
 was in this situation was from the 20th 
 . of July to the I7tli of August. Duiing 
 that time |ier royal highness was 
 proved to have been extremely fatigued, 
 and it was absolutely necessary, as 
 lieutenant Hownam had stated, that 
 her royal highness should be attended 
 by some person. By what person, then, 
 both for convenience and for every ne- 
 cessary purpose, could she be more 
 properly attended than by the cham- 
 berlain whom she had appointed to 
 provide every attention and protection 
 w ich her situation required. The 
 whole time that her royal highness re- 
 posed there she had her clothes on ; no 
 time was found when the parties were 
 not clothed. There was but one mo- 
 ment when it appeared that Bergami 
 was positively under the tent, and then 
 he was clothed. If this were a case 
 in which he should have to say that 
 the case on the other side was not made 
 out according to the letter, he should 
 say that it was never proved that Ber- 
 gami had been under the tent at night. 
 On occasion of a storm, her royal high- 
 ness was seen led down from the deck 
 by Bergami on the one hand, and lieu- 
 tenant Flynn on the other. As Flynn 
 was known to have reposed elsewhere, 
 there was great probability that Ber- 
 gami had reposed under the tent. But 
 of that there was bo proof. However; 
 
 the bed had np clothes on, and Per- 
 gami was dressed. The inference at- 
 tempted to be raised was, therefore, on 
 that one occasion, completely nega- 
 tived. Jn the constant use of the tcHt 
 all was open and avowed ; the light 
 was given out, which was a most im - 
 portant circumstance, and distinctly 
 proved ; nothing was done that showed 
 concealment or disguise of the fact ; 
 and all that appeared was, that this 
 fatigued, unprotected lady, but the 
 boldest of the party, found it absolutely 
 necessary that some male person should 
 attend near her. Two and twenty 
 sailors were on board, and passing and 
 repassing at all hours; two steersmen 
 regularly relieving one another ; there 
 was a constant liability to be inter- 
 rupted and observed by persons below, 
 and on every side; and yet the only 
 circumstance whicli appeared was, that 
 Bergami had been actually under the 
 tent on the occasion which he had 
 stated, when two gentlemen conducted 
 I her royal highness from the deck iu 
 consequence of the alarm. But, in the 
 absence of direct proof, their lordships 
 had a specimen of the mode resorted to 
 on the other side, to extort from wit- 
 nesses opinions and beliefs from which 
 an inference might be drawn favour- 
 able to their object. Lieutenant How- 
 nam, with the candour which belonged 
 to a manly character, stated at once, 
 when asked his belief, that Bei^ami 
 did sleep under the tent. On this ex- 
 pression of belief being made by lieu- 
 (enantHownam, they heard a triumph- 
 ant echo from all parts of the town, 
 and they heard a triumphant murmur 
 from his learned friends, and all that 
 had been believed, and all that had 
 been admitted, were to be excluded, 
 and they were to fix on this single and 
 solitary fact, that lieuteaant Hownam 
 believed both parties to have slept 
 under the tent. What was le to say, 
 if the counsel for the crown, in a case 
 of the utmost gravity and imptMt^nce, 
 after having rested their prima facie 
 case on the testimony of discarded ser- 
 vants, on the testimony of disgraced 
 witnesses, on the testimony of profli- 
 gate and wicked persons collected from 
 all quarters — he would riot say by what 
 means — if, after having founded their 
 primafacie case on such testimony, they 
 then abandoned it all, and fixed on on^ 
 belief, excluding all the rest out of that 
 case of the highest criminal nature.^ 
 This was conduct unheard of in the 
 
DEFENCi: OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 319 
 
 records of criminal justice. The aues- 
 tion as tu belief might have been ; 
 objected to, because it was not evi- 
 dence. It was proper only as a mode 
 of trying the credit of the witness; and 
 because the wituess gave an answer 
 which reflected the highest honour on 
 his credit, his learned friends founded 
 on that answer the whole of their case. 
 Lieutenant Howuani stated no mystery 
 to be attached to the subject. He stJited 
 that it was necessary for her royal high- 
 nesses protection that some male person 
 should attend near her. He then staled 
 that he considered it no degradation to 
 her royal highness to be so atteuded. 
 This opinion and belief he stated as 
 strongly as the other. His learned 
 friend who had so much opportunity of 
 knowing the private secrets of her royal 
 highness's conduct and habits dur- 
 ing the whole period embraced by the 
 investigation, had not once got ground 
 for criminal inference, but by dismem- 
 bering the evidence of lieutenant How- 
 uam, and detailing his belief on one 
 circumstance. He now came to offer 
 some observations on the testimony of 
 lieutenant Flynn, who had not been 
 called, as he ought to have been, on 
 the other side, but by them ; who had 
 not been sought for by those to whom 
 he could have given important infor- 
 mation if they wished for truth, but by 
 them who were obliged to repel false- 
 hood and perjuries. Lieutenant Flynn, 
 residing in Sicily without office, pen- 
 sion, or emolumei^t from her majesty, 
 had not been sent for by the other side ; 
 but he saw in the public papers the fa- 
 brications and falsehoods set up against 
 the queen of England, He had not 
 been hired at the rate of 100 guineas a 
 month— had no prospect of rivalling 
 the mate of the polacca ; but this brave, 
 gallant, honourable man, came to sup- 
 port innocence against perjury; he 
 came to the bar ot their lordships to 
 bear testimony to the best of his recol- 
 lection and belief, at the distance of 
 time since the transactions inquired 
 into had taken place. It was certain 
 that he had never been in a court of 
 justice before, and certainly no witness 
 ever had been more affected by the 
 dignity of the court and the alarm that 
 surrounded him. When he had been 
 asked whether those copies he held in 
 his hand were faithful copies, he said 
 they we e not faithful conies, meaning 
 exactly that they were faithful copies. 
 But, certainly a more nervous aud 
 
 more agitated man he had never i^eeu 
 in any court. He was asked his belief, 
 and a more fair and clear account of 
 belief had never been given, bct:au".e 
 the wiiness referred to the facts on 
 whicii he founded hi^ belief. He hid 
 been n'^ked as to the siruation of the 
 beiU from Syracuse to Jaffa, aiui he an- 
 swered that Bergami's bed was in the 
 diniuij-roonj.Hewastlieu asked a«i to the 
 situation of the iieds troin Jaffa to Italy, 
 and his answer was, ** I don't know." 
 The leason uas plain, for her ma- 
 jesty reposed then on deck. When 
 Lieut Flynn passed throu»h the diuing- 
 room to attend upon her royal high- 
 ness, hR had means of knowing that 
 Berganii slept there, and though lie 
 actually saw him only once, he spoke 
 to liiui behind the screen. A more 
 satisfactory reason why he knew that 
 he slept there had never been known. 
 But why not know where Borgami 
 slept when returning from Jaffa ? It 
 was because he had not occasion to 
 pass through the dining-room in waiting; 
 in the morning on the queen. He was 
 asked whether there had been no other 
 distributien of the beds made. He an- 
 swered, ** No, it was unnecessary ; 
 her majesty did what she pleased with 
 her sofa, and any other that had a bed 
 on deck did the same. I had nothiUji: 
 to do with it." When he was asked 
 as to his belief, he did not give a belief 
 founded on rumour or scandal, on mis- 
 representation and falsehood. He did 
 right in looking at facts, and said no- 
 thing that he was not justified in be- 
 lieving. No person could forget how 
 this gallant officer was crosss-examined. 
 He did not undervalue the talents of 
 the Solicitor-General ; he held in the 
 highest honor that greatest of legal 
 talents, that most important means of 
 detecting falsehood which man could 
 display, that best shield of slandered 
 innocence— he meant that talent of 
 cross-examination which was often 
 found successful in dragging reluctant 
 truth from its lurking places, in mak- 
 ing a witness disclose what he was 
 most anxious to conceal, and in dis- 
 playing most conspicuously those im- 
 portant truths which were most sedu- 
 lously withheld. But that sham cross- 
 examination which was exercised in 
 taking advantage of the alarm and agi-, 
 tation of a witness— though he ho- 
 noured the talent of cross-examination 
 which elicited important trutlt, he re- 
 garded with a very inferior degree of 
 
;350 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 honor that shorn cicss-examination, 
 either in its motives or its conse- 
 quences. A paper hjid been produced 
 by this wi nesj<, a paper as immaterial, 
 nay, far more immaterial than the 
 Trieste j<,urnal ^vhich his Karned 
 friend had oflVrcd yeflerday. The 
 paper produced by lieutenant Flynn 
 was perfectly immaterial, wheiher it 
 existed or not. It was only a state- 
 ment of dfites and places. The wit- 
 ness believing that it would be neces- 
 sary for liim to lia\e those dates and 
 places, made his clerk fratiscribe them. 
 On coming; to England, he found the 
 paper so ill written, and words so ill 
 f-pelled as to be unfit for use. He 
 therefore got count Schiavini to make 
 another. The dates were proved by 
 other witnesses, and he (Mr. Denman) 
 believed, that the dates in the paper 
 alluded to were not found to differ 
 from those given by any other witness. 
 His learned friend (the Solici'or-Ge- 
 iieral) by his powers of mind, by his 
 gyeat powers of countenance, and by 
 his talent in cross-cxamiuatiou, had in 
 the case of this witness got,' what, if 
 the paper and its contents were im- 
 portant, might lead to an inference 
 most unfavorable to the credit of the 
 witness; but what, unimportant, per- 
 fectly unimportant and immaterial, as 
 the paper was, led only to ihe con- 
 clusion, that he was entirely overcome 
 by his own agitation and alarm. The 
 greatest men in the field were known 
 to he nervous and agitated on occa- 
 sions foreign to their profession. But 
 never had a more complete illustration 
 been given than in this instance of the 
 power of the gown over military 
 prowes — Cedant arma tcga. But no 
 man could disbelieve the general effect 
 of his testiraon}' ; no man, after the 
 evidence of Lieut. Hownamand Flynn, 
 could for a moment give credit to the 
 indecent exposures sworn to by the 
 captain and the mate. Here again the 
 evidence had broken down under the 
 Attorney-General : he had detailed a 
 most licentious course of proceeding 
 on the part of Bergami, who was said 
 on the voyage from Jaffa to have made 
 rhost disgusting exhibitions of his 
 person before the queen. His own 
 witness had contradicted him, for the 
 captain only called them apish tricks, 
 and Lieut' Hovvnam distinctly proved 
 that those apish tricks amounted only 
 to this — that Bergami, to imitate and 
 ridiculs some portly and pompous per- 
 
 sonage, had put some cusl.bns -under 
 his waistcoat. V. t this was to be 
 bi ought in aid of the kissing and etn- 
 bracing, and all the other disgubtin;>- 
 trash which was to i^ive a colour to ihi's 
 proceeding. T he jut conclusion from 
 all that had appeared in evidence re- 
 garding the tent was this — that if the 
 queen and Bergami had intended to 
 commit adultery, they would have 
 kept below, and would have taken 
 especial care that no man should see 
 them together under the tent or deck, 
 even in the day-time, as the moral 
 captain and his blushing mate had 
 ventured to depose. It «as rot imma- 
 terial to reflect that this tent scene on 
 board the polocca was the last rag tl^at 
 yet remained to cover the filthy de- 
 formity of the case in support of the 
 bill. If it were clearly shown that 
 there was nothing in the conduct of 
 the queen before or after this incident 
 that could merit censure even from 
 the most rigid moralist, was it possible 
 for the house to believe that on this oc- 
 casion, and no other, an adulterous in- 
 tercourse had taken place ? On the 
 contrary, if no such facts had beeii 
 opened as the disgusting exhibitions 
 by the Ottamite, the indecencies with 
 the statues in the garden, the dresses 
 at the masked ball, and the visit to the 
 theatre St. Carlos, the house would not 
 have permitted such a case to be 
 brought forward ; and would not any 
 judge, if it had been a trial in our 
 courts, have declared it wholly nn- 
 worthy the attention of a jury? Let it 
 be recollected that their lordships were 
 now trying the highest subject of the 
 realm for the highest crime a subject 
 could commit. It was their duty to 
 allow no middle course— no disgrace- 
 ful compromise between their duly and 
 their inclinatioa. They were not to 
 receivo light evidence under the sup- 
 position that the punishment was light. 
 The punishment was not light, it was 
 the heaviest that could be inflicted on a 
 queen. For his own part, without any 
 exaggerated sentiment, which perhaps 
 in an advocate might be allowed, he 
 might say that ho would rather see his 
 royal mistress tried at the bar, like 
 Anna Boleyn, for her life, than in the 
 more perilous situation in which the 
 queen now stood. He would much 
 rather have to hand her to the scaffold^ 
 where she would have to lay her au- 
 gust head upon the block with all the 
 firmness and magnanimity belonging to 
 
DEFK^NCD OF THE QUKEiV. 
 
 Sol 
 
 l»cr illiKtrioiu family, than witness 
 lirr condeiifnatloii under the present j 
 c}i,irj;e5, which would render her an ! 
 ohject indeed of general piiy, but of 
 more sreneral scoru ; to be looked upon | 
 only as one who was entitled U) j 
 compassion, havinoj fallen by the 
 jnisconduct of those who afterwards j 
 brought her to punishment, but at the i 
 same lime to be regarded as a most j 
 deplorable instance of degraded rank j 
 and ruined character. The house was ; 
 bound, tlierefore, to try the queen as if 
 the tommissiou of an act of high trea- 
 son on board the polacca had been 
 charged : aud, thus viewing it, what 
 would be the lang-uage of any judge 
 regarding a prisoner, who, having by 
 the evidence been acquitted of., a great , 
 number of false anfl important charges, 
 was at least accused of one single, and, 
 comparatively, insignificant, oftence — 
 would not the judge declare on the 
 i«stant, in a case like the present, that 
 no proof existed of criminal intercourse 
 — that the main fact had been disproved 
 — that though the parties had perhaps 
 been seen together in the tenf, and 
 though there might be a surmise or 
 ])ossiljility of guilt, because one of the 
 witnesses had hinted at such a situation 
 yet, that all criminal intent was nega- 
 tived, and that the excuse for the si- 
 tuation w;as given under the same oath 
 that had sworn to it. A judge who, 
 under such circumstances, did not de- 
 clare that a prisoner ou^^ht to be in- 
 stantly acquitted, would deserve to be 
 impeached at the bar of this house for 
 a gross and infamous deriliction of his 
 duty. Was he again to go back to the 
 bath — again to enter into the fables of 
 Majocchi aud De Mont, who in this 
 instance only, had vouched for each 
 other? The question was, where was 
 the bath ? One staled it to be in one 
 room, and another in another; but af- 
 terwards it appeared to have been in 
 the cabin; and the chamberlain, their 
 lordships would probably think, did 
 no more than his duly, in preparing 
 the water, and feeling its temperature : 
 it was merely ridiculou-. to suppose 
 that he stayed to be prescut at the 
 operation. Where facts rested upon 
 the testimony of these two witnesses, 
 they were wholly to be discre^Jited, and 
 the house was bound to consider the 
 full contradiction they had- received 
 Had any matter of crimination existed 
 on the part of the queen, so advauta- 
 gcouft a witnefs to support iit had never 
 
 been brought into court as Lientenant 
 llownata. lie joined hrr majesty at 
 Genoa when the supposed passion was 
 at its height, and he had continued 
 with her for about three years, during 
 which he must have been well ac- 
 quainted with whatever criminal acts 
 
 his royal mistress had committed 
 
 The other side had had an opportunity 
 of cr-jss examining him, after torturing 
 his belief on subjects of every descri]». 
 lion: and though they pretended to 
 prove acts of indecent familiarity by 
 two or throe masons, two or three 
 white-washers, and two or three dis- 
 carded servants, they had not ventured 
 even to suggest to lieutenant Hownara 
 any occasion when such scenes, if ihey 
 existed, must have inevitably passed be- 
 fore him. Both he and lieutenant Flynn 
 gave the most decisive contradiction to 
 all that was sworn by those much relied 
 on witnesses, Gargiulo and Paturz(». 
 He would now notice the evidence that 
 related to the Villa D'Este ; fir.-t, how*, 
 ever, as his learned friend reminded 
 him, saying a few v. ords regarding the 
 embrace which the queen was said to 
 have given Bergami when he went on ' 
 shore at Terracina, afier the tedious 
 voyage, to prevent the necessity of ob- 
 serving quarantine. All that was proved 
 was, that Majocchi being below deck, 
 the princess had thought proper to have 
 him fora witness of the kiss she aIlowet| 
 Bergami to give upon her lips. Ma- 
 jocchi had taken care that nobody 
 else should be present that he might 
 not be con trad ic'-ed; but still 'hi.4 
 falsehood had its foundation in a gerra 
 of truth, because all the witnesses 
 agreed that Bergami kissed the hand 
 of the priucesss upon deck when he 
 took his departure, which was no more 
 than the rest of the suite were in the 
 habit of doing on similar occasions. He 
 had, by accident, passed over another 
 kiss—the kisi on Bergami's visit to 
 Messina, about one mile from the dwel- 
 ling of the princess, to make some 
 purchases. Majocchi had thought fit 
 toswear,that o.i parting on this distant 
 expedition here again was a most af- 
 fectionaie leave-taking, at which he I 
 alone was present. However De ' 
 Mont thought it ri^ht on this point ta ' 
 give her frietid soioe slight co'-tfirma- ' 
 tion, and accordingly she said, that** 
 there bad been some kissing at their •■ 
 parting, but that her buck was turued, ** 
 and she could not tell whether the kis§'-^ 
 Wtts given ou the hand w on the facef* 
 
352 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEi:i«r. 
 
 The irutli, no doubt, was tlvat lier royal 
 liifrliiieBS had given her hand, that her 
 chamberlain mightreceive the ordinary 
 token oi reo;ard. It would be a waste 
 of time to dwell loii<>er on these pelfy 
 incidents, and lie would proceed there- 
 fore to the Villa d'Esle, where that 
 valuable member of society, and gal- 
 lant officer in the army of Na- oleon, 
 M. Sacchi, was lirst taken into the ser- 
 vice ot the princess. It was ob-ervable, 
 that ihe house had liad two discarded 
 servauts, Majocchi and De Mtmt, to 
 prwve transactions beft)rG the tent- 
 scene ill the polacca j and two other { 
 discarded servants, Sarchi and Raslelli, i 
 to speak to events subsequent to it — i 
 to estal)lish the most dis^racefiil I 
 facts that ever polluted the lips of; 
 inau, and which he (Mr. Denman) I 
 should have thou-i^ht n<) huband ot ! 
 the sli'jjhiest feeling would have per- > 
 tnitted to have been given in evidence ' 
 against his wife, even if .«he had de- \ 
 serted his fond and affectionate en»- 
 braces, much less if he l)ad driven her 
 into guilt, by ihrusiiug her from his 
 dwelling ; recollecting that the more 
 depraved he showed his wife to be, 
 the more he established his own 
 cruelty and profligacy ; and the more 
 imputations he cast upon her, the more 
 he was to be despised for having de. 
 serted and abandoned her. He had 
 heard examples supposed to be similar 
 t« the present quoted from English 
 history, but he knew of no example in 
 any history of a christian king who 
 had tijought himself at liberty to di- 
 vorce his wife for any misconduct, 
 when his own misconduct in the first 
 instance was the occasion of her fall. 
 He bad, however, found in some de- 
 gree a |>arallel in the history of im- 
 perial Rome, and it vvas the only case 
 in the annals of any nation which ap- 
 peared to bear a close resemblance to 
 the present proceeding. Scarcely had 
 Ociavia beconie the vife of Nero, 
 when almost on the day of marriage 
 she became also the object of his dis- 
 gust and aversion. She was repudiated 
 autl dismissed on a false and frivolous 
 pretext. A mistress was received into 
 her place, and before long she was 
 even banished from the dwelling of 
 her hnsband. A conspiracy was set 
 on foot against her honour, to impute 
 to her a licentious amour with a slave, 
 and it was stated by the great historian 
 of corrupted Rome, that on that oc- 
 casion some of her servants were in- 
 
 duced, not by bribes, but byiorturcfi, 
 to depost; to facts injurious to ht-r re- 
 putation ; but the greater number per- 
 .-.isted in faiihfully maintaiuing her 
 innocence. It secnu'd thar, though 
 the people were convinced of her pu- 
 rity, the prosecutor persevered in as- 
 serting her gnilt, and finally banished 
 her from Rome. Her return was like 
 a flood. The geneious people re- 
 ceived her with th«>se feelings which 
 ought to have existed in the boart of 
 her husband. But a second coiispirucr 
 was afteiwards attempted, snd in the 
 cour-eof that ioquiry she wa> convicted 
 and condemned, ^he was banisked to 
 an island in the Mediterranean, vvhere 
 the only act of mercy shown to her 
 was putting an end to her suffering-; by 
 ];oison or the dagger. In the words of 
 Tacitu?, ** Non alia exsul viseutium 
 oculos majore misericordia aft'ecif. 
 Meminerant adhuc quidam Agrippinaj 
 a Tiberio ; recentior Julia; meinoria 
 observabatur, Claudio fulsas. Sed iliis 
 robnr ffltatis as^uerat : Iceta aliqua vi- 
 derant, et prcsentem saevitiam melioris 
 olira fortunae recordalione allevabanf. 
 Huic primurn nuptiarum dies loco fu- 
 neris fuit, deduciae in domum, in qua 
 nihil nisi luctuosum haberet." The 
 death of her father and her brother 
 had deprived her of her natural pro- 
 tectors who might have stood between 
 her and misery, ** turn ancilla domina 
 validior: et Poppcjea nou nisi in per- 
 nicicm uxoris nupta: poslremo crimen 
 omni exitio gravius." The princess of 
 Wales had k-ft this country after the 
 first conspiracy had been attempted 
 and had failed : her illu-trious friends 
 — those who had basked in the splen- 
 dour of her noon-tide rays — had then 
 deserted her. Soon afterwards ru- 
 mours and reports of the mos^t afflicting 
 kintl prevailed, and those rumours and 
 reports at length assumed something of 
 a tangible shape, and her majesty had 
 been called upon to grajple with them 
 as substantial charges, and he hoped 
 that she had shown that they were' 
 utterly unfounded. In that situation, 
 however, she had been deprived of her 
 only daughter: tha' unhappy child was 
 removed from the means of longer pro- 
 tecting her afflicted mother. In that 
 fatal month, which blasted the hopes 
 of Kngland, November, 1817, it so 
 happened that every one of the ma- 
 terial witnesses in this case had been 
 discharged from the service of the 
 princess. It was then that De Mout 
 
DEFEilCE OF THE QUEEX. 
 
 353 
 
 nns Jeut a vay wiUi all her valued se« 
 ttfts; it was ill (n tliat Majocchi was 
 tiu-icd a«ay with ail Lis Ct-aiful proofs 
 of he knew not how Jiiari}' kisses; atid 
 in the pame month, those two special 
 ^ lulcuii-n, Messrs. .Sacchi and Rastelli, 
 had been d^'prived of ttieir situations. 
 Thus this illustrious lady, who was 
 .supposed to have sinned with so much 
 boldness, and to have loved with such 
 extraordinary enthusiasm, had ventured 
 to turn loose upon the world the four 
 individuals most capalile of proving 
 the ease a^^ainst her, and of reducing: 
 her to the lowest stajj^e of disgrace and 
 misery. They wrre discarded servants, 
 and he would say so, though in tijne ail 
 phrases became hacknied in the mouths 
 uf men: yet, if after the lapse of frix 
 years such testimony was t<» be re- 
 ceived, he would aj)pcal to the house 
 in what situation human society would 
 be placed. Reference had been made 
 on former occasions to that bill which 
 had for its object to make adulterv a 
 crime- Tlic draft of it was still pre- 
 served in the archives of parliament, 
 and excluded from tlie right of com- 
 plaining every husband who had col- 
 luded with, connived at, or permitted 
 the offence of his wife. In the debates 
 on that measure it was admitted on all 
 hands, that it was fit that adultery 
 should he considered a crime; but it 
 was also held that it was far more unfit 
 that such an encouragement to perjury 
 — such a premium to malignity, sliould 
 be held out to discarded servants. 
 Adultery was unquestionably criminal 
 in various degrees, but most especially 
 so when the conduct of the husband 
 had been unimpeachable. But when 
 he had been guilty of immoral prac- 
 tices — when he had committed so.iue 
 flagrant broach of his duty, the feelings 
 of mankind would never accord with 
 the condemnation of a wife. He (Mr. 
 Dentr.an) never could reilect upon the 
 condition of discarded servants with 
 reference to the matter now before the 
 house, without remembering the im- 
 mortal words of Hurke, where he di- 
 rected the fire of his eloquence against 
 spie-5 in general, but especially against 
 domestic spies: ho said that by them 
 " the seeds of destruction are sown in 
 civil intercourte and domestic happi- 
 ness; the blood of wholesome kindred 
 ii affected : our tables and our beds 
 are surrounded with snares, and all the 
 means given by providence to make 
 life safe and comfortable, are converted 
 
 into instruments of terror and alarm." 
 Discarded servants had it in their 
 power at all ti^ncs to depose to facts on 
 which they could not bo contradicted. 
 If any man should dare to swear that 
 the noble consort of one of their lord- 
 ships had got out of her bed in the 
 middle of the night, unseen but through 
 the key-hole or the crevice of a door, 
 and crept to the bed of a domestic, 
 how was it possible to contradict 
 such a witness, who had b^ten dismissed, 
 notwithstanding his possession of a se- 
 cret so fatal, but by the general purity 
 of the character of the illustrious ac- 
 cused, and by the malice of the ac- 
 cuser betraying itself in the very 
 foulness of his charge? One of t!ie 
 servants in the case of the witness to 
 whom he had already alluded, being 
 questioned upon subjects of this foul 
 and lilthy description by one of the 
 persons who had attempted to subora 
 lier, had given. him an answer full of 
 female spirit and virtuous inHgnation 
 — an answer which he preferred to 'give 
 in the original, because he was unwil- 
 ling to diminish its force, and because 
 being less known, the coaj-seness would 
 be less understood :— 
 
 oicTTioivcc (/.a Td ere crTo-Axa-oq ^X^*' '' 
 
 To sucli discarded suborners as Sacchi 
 and Rasleili might this answer be ap- 
 ])lied. Sacchi had talked a great deal 
 about his being a '^oldier and a gen- 
 tleman : he had received the reward of 
 his fidelity on the field of battle, and 
 one of the first proofs he gave that he 
 deserved it, was coming forward to be- 
 tray his mistre=!<?. What mighty dis^ 
 tinclion was there between treachery 
 and perjury — between the man Who 
 betrayed truths that Imd come to his 
 knowledge, in the excess of confident 
 reliance, and the man who would in- 
 vent them for the sake of a basd; re- 
 wards' The witness who was summoned 
 to an English court of justice was 
 bound bj' his oath to disclose the truth.' 
 and the whole truth ; but why, upon 
 this occasion, bad Sacchi mad* his ap- 
 pearance? Because he had beerf 
 bribed to give his evidence. He had 
 received no suu^aious, no subpoena; 
 and no force had been necessary to 
 compel him ; he was a volunteer in in- 
 iquity, but not for its own sake, bof 
 for the most base and sordid purposes, 
 and was equally infamous, whether he 
 came to disclose tiic real secrets of his 
 45 
 
,354 
 
 pi- FENCE OF THE QUKEPf. 
 
 mifitress, or to perjure hin)solf by the 
 assertion of 'wliat was false. The 
 greatest of nil Jraitors— tlie lirst apos- 
 tate to Christiaoiiy and liunian nature 
 — was not fort>v^orn : he only came lo 
 betray his master; yet the execrations 
 of mankind luul foUoived him from 
 thatmomeut to the present. lie (Mr. 
 l^enman) always thons^ht of thii great 
 prototype of treachery and infamy when 
 lie saw such a witness as Sac. hi ad- 
 vance the Bible to his lips, ready, like 
 Judas, to betray God and man at 
 
 S^i '^^^^ ^'!f"*; blaspheming- k 
 
 once 
 
 iss. 
 
 acchi \va3 discharged in November, 
 1817, with all these dreadful secrets, 
 If he were to be believed, in his pus- 
 session, and dt that period it might be 
 »aid that the conspiracy against her 
 majesty was already formed. If at that 
 time there had been no Ompteda, no 
 Milan Commission, and if the queen, 
 instead of being expelled from her 
 nome, had left it for her own con- 
 renieuco and pleasure, yet even 
 jaen the conspiracy was formed, 
 and was sure of being carried into 
 c^ect. But as there was a period when 
 corruption takes place in the human 
 neart, so tliere mav be a moment of 
 repentanc.^; and fortunately, Louisa 
 De Mont disqualified herself as a wit- 
 ness, by pronouncing in favour of her 
 mistress one of the most complete and 
 «kVel|eht panegyrics jhat ever pro- 
 ceeded 'from a servant. With that un- 
 bqliivo'cal testimony staring them in 
 .Mj®/f"ce» it was impossible not only to 
 pelieve a word that she had sworn in 
 |Ohtraaiction of herself, but a word that 
 ahy|bT the other witnesses had deposed 
 f^^'nst the queen. It was indetd a 
 iliost happy circumstance that this fe- 
 <n«le, who afterwards, by the persuasion 
 icif her paramour Sacchi, was induced 
 to appear in the shattered ranks of the 
 eneiny, had thus destroyed her own and 
 t|ie evidence of her compeers. It was 
 yeedless to refer to the pieeise terms of 
 fiier letter, written under cirenmstances 
 Vhich incontrovertibly proved that she 
 ^uist have been sincere j she there spoke 
 of her family and her sisters, whom she 
 wished to recninraend to the notice and 
 protecti<iB of her majesty. If, indeed, 
 what she had sworn at the bar was true, 
 *'9"ld she have been so anxious to intro- 
 M.V-Ce her innocent relatives to a recep- 
 t?:<^ of vice and debauchery ? Impos- 
 Y^^ie! Human naUue could not be so 
 "^Pravcd, so lost to all sense- of decency 
 Hfld virtue. It wa* by no means im'wa- 
 
 terial to call the attention of iheir loid- 
 ships to what paused yesterday, u Immi an 
 elderly persrtn from the same ueighhonr- 
 hoodof this cliamherinaid, who hatl mcu 
 in all the papers, to the disgrace of th« 
 oge, these scandalous pnrccedings, and 
 remarkcil the rare inconsistency of the 
 testimony, and the declaralicuis t»f Do 
 Mont, had come forward to depove to 
 the fact. What could he more proper or 
 more natuial? for Do Mont'g declara* 
 tionswere.in all respect* consistent with 
 her letters, and (hose leiter« alone wcie 
 an acquilial of her majesty. He posi- 
 tively declared, that if such a witness, 
 with such a means of knowledge, bud: 
 so expressed herself in the box on a 
 trial on a charge of this description, her 
 evidence mu»t have procured the inslarrt 
 discharge of the accused from all impu- 
 tation. When a witness was thus op- 
 posed to herself — when one point of her 
 conduct so diametrically contia«licted 
 the other— surely the most rational mode 
 of pi-oceeding was to consider the mo- 
 tives that might have operated upon her 
 mind to produce a change, and to impel 
 her to abandon truth. Upon this point it 
 was not necessary for him to erdarge. 
 When the coitnsel- for the queen hod 
 been challenged to pr-(»«Ince this witiress- 
 and that witness, it was injpossihle for 
 any man not to reflect that t-he haij been 
 surrounded by dangers of every kirul. 
 He would ask, if her majesty hud hecrj^ 
 accused, only two years ago, of the 
 crimes i>ow laid to her charge, she coiiltT 
 look to any creature fur a defence and- 
 protection with mor-e ossurance than tf»^ 
 the writer of tho>e passionate letters? 
 Yet at this moment slie was one of' 
 the principal persons brought forwar-cli' 
 to .tlestioy that character and snlly 
 that virtue, which she had nj;ain and 
 again acknowledged. Tins of itself \\as 
 a marvelions lesson, and a nrost singular 
 and providential proof of the necesbity 
 of over-riding the unsuspecting coriA- 
 dencc of the queen On this account ilf 
 became necessary for her counsel lo^ 
 deterirrine where no case was pi-oved,. 
 not to meet imaginary evidence, but to 
 content themselves with clcarinof herr 
 majesty from all that had a shadow of 
 testimony to support it. They had held 
 it unwise to expose her innocence to the 
 possible treachery of the sister of J)e 
 Mont, or to submit that sister to the 
 perils of a cross-examination. Some 
 little forgetfiilness— some trillirrg slip — 
 somfe iinConscioirs error orr a poirrt that 
 had nothing io do w ilh the reul merits of 
 
Ut:TliNCG Ot TtJE QtJI^^N. 
 
 ^ 
 
 4he dtifcMce, luiglit give the other fiJe 
 ait import.) lit utlraiitag^c orer a weak and 
 tiiiioruua frinnie. For ttiis reason he 
 trnstrd that the luw advisers of her ma- 
 jestr would btnnd excused to all mankind 
 fur rohtiiig* the defence of their illustrious 
 ciicut on such evidence as would have 
 vatistted tho utiuost seroritr of a court of 
 jttstice. Perhaps too g-nat a coinplinicnt 
 iiiid beiMi iiluail^ |):iid to the case in ac- 
 cn»ntion by production of auy evidence 
 to meet it ; tor had the question been 
 njfitaled elsewhere, a j'ltl^e iniyht have 
 been c;iil<Ml upon after the prosecution 
 had ctofiod to direct an iicquittal. They 
 had all fell it, and only the remarkable 
 nalute of the cose h:id induced them to 
 deviate from the course tiiey should 
 otheruixe have pursued. But as there 
 was n«> end to human increduiity, the 
 AUornry-Gcneral would no doubt make 
 maiiT ncute observutions on the absence 
 of witncasos for the queen. He would 
 ask, where i« the sister of De Mont, 
 Marietti, and some dozens of seivaats., 
 who iiiiijht h^ive been called, and who 
 uiiRht, by p»>ssibility in the perplexity, 
 irritation, aud confusion of a cross- 
 eKamiuatioii, be entrapped into some 
 trivial niiAtakes. Of this the house 
 Jiad already had some experience. 
 What a triumph had been proclaimed 
 ^n the production of a jdece of paper 
 by lieutenant Flynn, which was not of 
 the sli^'ittst use, but' which, it was as- 
 serteil, had covered him with .everlast- 
 ing; infamy. It was curious to look at 
 tho cross-examination of this brave 
 officer : the last question, after which 
 he was dismissed as if unworthy of fur- 
 ther interroijatorics, had refereni.'e to 
 th- paper he had produced : it was, 
 " i^id you not say that it was your 
 liatjd-\vri;ing ?" In fact he had never 
 ^^uid Ro, but it was put into his mouth 
 n'n -if he had, and the witness incau- 
 tiotisly adopted it. It then became 
 .utterly impossible for him to deny it, 
 t!ioui;h he mij^ht fairly enough reply, 
 " If I did say so, ii was be<au5e I was 
 .in such a state that 1 could not give my 
 attention fairly to the question." With 
 this experi«nce before their eyes — with 
 this example of lieutenant Flynn, who 
 in all the jjovernmcnt newspapers was 
 said to have dt siroyed a wretched cans ? 
 by hiA still mure wretched failure, in 
 their lecollcclion, it seemed to luin 
 f • th.ii IsKS leaii-c(l coadjutors had exer 
 * cised a sound di«ierct on in not calling 
 further evi leuce. i hey had lliouj^ht 
 mat alter the proufs— the undeniable 
 
 proofs — they had akeady giroo of 
 her majesty's innboence, they ihould 
 do wron^ to expose nervous femabs to 
 the hazard of a cross-examination— 
 when uothing >^as wanted for the de- 
 fence, and every litt c point extorted 
 was important to the prosecution. 
 
 The learned counsel w^ about' to 
 proceed to some other parts of the cas'e^ 
 when he was interrupteJ by the earl of 
 Liverpool, who moved the adjourn- 
 ment, observing, that it wat naw past 
 the usual hour. 
 
 Adjourned at four o'clock. 
 
 W^EDNESDAY, October 35. 
 
 The house met at the usual hour, anil' 
 counsel were soon afterwards called to^ 
 the bar. ,^ 
 
 Mr. DEN MAN then proceeded as 
 follows: ... ,,, 
 
 My lords— In referring ' to the eyl^^ , 
 
 dence, 1 shall next advert to that part 
 
 of it upon which the whole of this, 
 
 charge originated — I mean the engage-. 
 
 ment of that individual at Milan in t\vi'^ 
 
 service of her royal highness, vvhose^ 
 
 name has been mis-stated in the biU^ 
 
 before your lordships, and whose name ^ 
 
 has appeared so frequently during th^", 
 
 whole of these debates. I think it ap-^ 
 
 pears that he was eng"g d in the rourse'^ 
 
 of the month of October, 1914— uiU ■ 
 
 doubtedly he was engaged in the meati-'^ 
 
 est capacity: but it is material to ol^, 
 
 serve, that no person ever eiitcrcd into^. 
 
 any service, 1 may say with higl er re- ^ 
 
 commendations to confidence a"tif, I 
 
 esteem, with better prospects of favour,,^ 
 
 or with stronger hopes of being raisQdl 
 
 with rapidity, than t1:^is individual. f^r,J, 
 
 Craven states, in page 533, the very ^ 
 
 extraordinary recommendations >vit|yj"^ 
 
 which he was introduced to his noti(»*^^ 
 
 by the noble marquis who was ap- . 
 
 pointed to wait upon her royi.l highness, , 
 
 in the character of chamberlain j ana^ 
 
 the house will not fail to recollect th'^'^ 
 
 vicissitndrs to which all ranks were ex-^^ 
 
 j posed in the course of the changes^ 
 
 [ which marked the eventful period oL^ 
 
 ! 1814 The individual in question haOjj 
 
 scrvecl in France from the commence-^ 
 
 '• incnt of the French Revolution, aud hay^y 
 
 ' in'4: been promoted in the French army,^^ 
 
 was upon terms of the greatest conn*; j 
 
 I dcuco and inlimucy with persons of th«^,j 
 
 ! highc;»t rank, lie had been reducedj ' 
 
 however, by the misfortunes of the 
 , liuicb to seek his iivelihuod in a lower 
 
356 
 
 DEFENCE OF THB QUEEIC. 
 
 «iluation. Your lordships will not for- j which he wa« afflicted, felt it impop- 
 ffet that it was stated by Sir William ^ sible to become the companion of his 
 Gell, in page 549, notwithbtandiug royal mistress. Under such circum- 
 these misfortunes, that he was treated ' stances, 1 do not know how it was 
 with the very highest distinction by the 1 possible for her royal highness to hate 
 marquis Ghisiliere, and that he was | done better, deprived as she was of the 
 saluted in the way in which gentlemen j assistance of any person of rank, to> 
 
 j have advanced this individual in her' 
 
 I confidence, and thus bind to her in- 
 
 tcrcbts a man of high and honourable 
 
 of equal rank salute each other in that 
 CDuntry, and your lordships will not be 
 surprised at this testimony of respect, 
 when vou recollect the manner in 
 which he was bpoken of by the count 
 Feuille, I am not, now, however, called 
 upon to justify Bergamj j on this occa- 
 sion it is not necessary that I should 
 enter into all the particulars of his 
 conduct. The mode in which he was 
 presented to her royal highness is alone 
 important here ; and I think it impos- 
 sible to advert to this part of the evi- 
 dence, without saying lie was |)recisely 
 such a person as any employer would 
 be happy to receive into their service, 
 and assiduously to watch f«r an oppor- 
 tunity of advancing. My lords, in the 
 course of the following twelve months 
 after he had been engaged, he received 
 that promotion, which his friends had 
 expected would be reserved for him. 
 From courier he waa, upon his arrival 
 at Naples, advanced to the situation of 
 page ; and here it should bo remarked, 
 that a courier to a royal person does 
 not wear a livery, but a uniform. The : 
 dress which he wears is, in no respect, 
 like the liverv which an ordinary ser- I 
 vant wears. However, at Naples, as I 
 have already 8 sid, he was promoted to 
 the situation of page. In tlie course of 
 the year he was advanced to the rank 
 of equerry : and, before that year was 
 quite completed, I believe, he became 
 chamberlain to her royal highness. 
 Now, my lords, 1 certainly do not 
 mean to say that it would' not have 
 been very desirable for her ro> al high- 
 ness to have placed in this high situa- 
 tion a person of elevated rank ; but 
 then let it be considered whether she 
 
 j character-. By conferring that obliga- 
 I tiou on him, she ennobled him with 
 j the privileges of royally, which she was 
 pcrfeetlv competent to do. Your lord- 
 1 ships will not forget that the personal 
 j prerogatives of persons in high situ- 
 I ations entitles them to confer titles 
 and honors upon those whom they may 
 chuso to select for their favors. And 
 the individuals thus distinguished by 
 them, and received by them into their 
 company, become entitled to the re- 
 spect duo to the rank which they have 
 conferred. I do not, on this account, 
 stop to inquire whether capta.n Pechcll 
 had formed a just determination in not 
 having sat down with ouo who had 
 been elevated to the society of her royal 
 highness ; but 1 say that, in my esti- , 
 mation, no individual could sutt'er iu 
 character or estimation by entering 
 into the society of a person so disiin- 
 guished as to ha^e been selected by a 
 royal personage as an object of favor. 
 My lords, it is proved by the evidence 
 of Mr, Sicard, as well as that of the 
 gentleman, who, acting as chamber- 
 lain, attended her majesty to Naples, 
 that it was thought necessary she 
 should have a guard placed near her; 
 and it is an important fact that in the 
 arrangement of the apartments of her 
 royal hij^hness at Naples, as the cabi- 
 net opened into the garden, it was 
 thought necessary, upon that account, 
 that some person sliould be placed 
 there to protect her royal liigliness, but 
 ^^ ithout any knowledge on her part, he 
 is placed in that cabinet adjoining the 
 
 had the means of accomplishing such garden, and there he discharged faith- 
 a desire if it had been formed ; and fully and honourably, the service im- 
 whether any English person of nob e I posed upon him — a most important 
 rank could have been found to enter \ service, be ause nobody can doubt, who 
 into her service at such a period. Dues j reads the whole of the evidence, but 
 it not appear, in the first place, with ' that her majcst}' was surrounded by 
 respect to Mr. Craven, that although j persons most ill-di-posed towards lier, 
 he was engaged in that situation, yet [Nalniost from the moment when she first 
 that he was obliged to quit her royul ■ quitted this country until her return, 
 highness in order to attend upon his 1 It is quite clear that her royal higb- 
 mother ; and also, that when the pro- | ness entertained that apprehension 
 JGcted long travels were spoken of. Sir | from all that passed. When this indi- 
 Williara Geil, from the iutirraity by vidual had performed the scrvioc faith- 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 357 
 
 fHlly and well as her royal highness's 
 g;uariiiaii uituu that uccasiuu, I ask 
 if auy tiling was more uatural, tViati 
 tliat on llic departure of Mr. Sicard 
 fur Ell- laud, that he should be pro- 
 moted lo be the master of the house- 
 hold, fur it appears by his previous 
 situation, that he had beeu iu the 
 hal;it of keeping accounts. My learned 
 friend, Ctiie Aiiorney-Geueral), whcu 
 lie opened the case, laid particular 
 stress upon this circumstance, and 
 asked, " Whether any good reason 
 could be given for his promotion ?" 
 But I think a complete answer is to 
 be found in the evidence. Have not 
 your lordships frequently felt it your 
 greatest pleasure to have the opportu- 
 nity of promoting a deserving person, 
 Itwas of importance, that some person 
 should be engaged to overlook the ac- 
 counts of the liousehold — such a person 
 »vas vranted— here it cculd be done 
 wjtljout displacing any one. It is in 
 the evidence of Mr. Sicard, and it Is a 
 most important fact, that he left her 
 royal highness because the state of her 
 pecuniary concerns required a journey 
 to England — he left her without any 
 wish on her part to bring any other 
 j'erson into his situation. But it is 
 not till after he left her, whom 1 may 
 call the clerk of the accounts of her 
 household, that this guard of lier 
 person was promoted to the situation 
 which Mr. Sicard was compelled to 
 leave. It has been said, that he wai 
 introduced into society by her royal 
 highness in a manner very ditVerent 
 from Mr. Sicard ; but it should be re- 
 membered, that we are talking of a 
 person who had been in a military 
 situation for several years, who was 
 particularly noticed and recommended 
 to her royal highness by the Marquis de 
 Gliisiliere, aud that therefore, however 
 honorable the conduct of Mr. Sicard 
 >vas, he could not have been intro- 
 duced into the society which tliis in- 
 dividual was, who had been in a mi- 
 litary situation, which he had lost by 
 the events of the war, and coming as 
 he did into her royal highncss's service 
 recommended as' he was. Bui n>y 
 lords, one of the duties imposed upon 
 this individual by his oiiice was, that 
 of hiring and dismisaiug the servants 
 "f the family: from the moment he 
 entered tipon that part of his duty, 
 >ve may be sure a host of enemies 
 ^^ovdd be raised against him ; and ac- 
 cordingly you find the minutes o' your 
 
 lordships are filled with the evidence 
 of discharged gervauts. lie would be 
 sure to be assailed by those who had 
 complaints to make, either that their 
 wages v\ere too low, or from some 
 cause or other it is easy to suppose 
 they would have uo great kiudness for 
 this individual, whom they might con- 
 sider as having no greater title to pro- 
 m(;tion than themselves. But I ask 
 with confidence, if her majesty had 
 any opportunity of promoting any 
 other individual with so much pro- 
 priety, if there was any whom she 
 cotdd suppose would look houestly 
 to the duties of his situation. My 
 lords, it appears lo be the misfortune 
 of her majesty, that her most virtuous 
 feelings are turned to her prejudice. 
 It is well known that before her de- 
 parture from this country, she had a 
 groat aftection for young children : 
 with this disposition she had taken 
 particular notice of the child Victoriue, 
 and there could be nothing more na- 
 tural with feelings like hers, that she 
 should do so. It docs not appear, as 
 my learned friend, the Attorney-Ge- 
 neral, opened, that this was an illegi- 
 timate child of Bergami, he being a 
 married man ; and my learned friend 
 mentioned that as being stated by her 
 royal highness. This is totally with- 
 out any proof; and yet this is one of 
 the circumstances which is brought 
 against her, \Vhen her majesty first 
 arriveil in this country, she took a 
 child under her protection, which she 
 con side! ed to be iu want of a pro- 
 tector — and nothing can mark her 
 <b;iracter more properly than this— 
 yet this was made the ground of au 
 inquiry in 1806'; and I have no dis- 
 IJosiiion to say that the inquiry was 
 improperly instituted. But nothing 
 was so fit, so correct, as this pro- 
 motion — aud as a proof of innocence, 
 and a denial of guilt, nothing so fit 
 aud proper than that the promotion 
 slioidd be openly and publicly Htade. 
 It became absolutely necessary, if her 
 mnjesty meant to jireserve her coii- 
 fii-tency of character, that the indi- 
 vidual who filled that rank in her 
 household, shotdd be presented to her 
 visitors and all the world as filling 
 that situation. What would have 
 been said if she had not done so ? It 
 would iiave been said that a suspicious 
 appearance was given to it ; if he had 
 !)cen still kept as the courier, aud had 
 skulked iu the l-^tchen, aud not ap- 
 
a$6^ 
 
 D^F£N(JE Ol' THE QUUEi\« 
 
 pwired in U>e pavJonr in the conr«ie of 
 til* ila}-, why ii would have been saki 
 h«'WtiH kept fwr ihe object of a dts- 
 ^ravefuV' passion. Wliat W'ould not 
 ]iave been said if thrs ait«raiion in \m 
 ^VvNoifotv had bo«A concealed froni 
 < njMaiw K-itif^s^ft ; j{^, when she w«nt on 
 JmaTid' <tW' saino »hi() where he had ap- 
 )u*t;F>cii it) an htiutUtor capacity, she had 
 uw-vv net suffered him< to appear at her 
 tafjde*— vrtinid it tmt have been sai<l 
 ^li4vkepi him-4() enjoy her stolen huuri 
 «4" lin»t, bm dnrst not arowlhe pro- 
 tii»)«k>n fbki had n»ade ; that she was 
 uftakl ol >.l»owiiiji: the person' she had 
 jiiro«i»ted befo«-€ the Enj^lish, thouj;!! 
 she' waiv not afi'aid of sht)wing: him 
 before- til e Itabans. I put it boldly 
 befiM-e your lordships, that that was 
 tlvo' vci-y c.'-.«<«e why her majesty felt 
 )tc»r»vlt .<*alle(l upon to support her ap- 
 ^fMinmeiit. Then it has been rtpre- 
 sentvd thai he was an individual 
 toatletb^Tith b(>nour<;. Your lordships 
 very well know, I think, that the 
 h(mnurs of a baron are exceeding-ly 
 ♦HfFerent jin those countries frona what 
 they are in this ; — there very few, in- 
 •de«d, can be traced to the early history 
 of'tbeiir coimtry^ they can be obtained 
 foraiew hundred livres. It is rather 
 «i w(«;atiott of rank not to have them, 
 tliau any <jreat promotion to enjoy 
 tbt^m. And if her royal highness 
 thought proper to put tkis individual 
 iu a high situation before this, then it 
 was perfectly proper that some title of 
 hiMioiir should be obtaitved for him. 
 On the continent, the honours of a 
 baronetage are not so great as in this 
 comitry; there are very few of my 
 learned friends, 1 believe, who have 
 iK-en in the habit of receiving letters 
 from the continent, who have not been 
 <lFKtii!guished by the title of my lord. 
 Diiriiig: tlve progress of tiiis very bill, 
 Air. Vizard received a Ktrer from a 
 rclaiion of one of the witnesses, in 
 *vbfcch the writer requested that apari- 
 ■fuents might Imj procured for the wit- 
 <jess, *♦ as near as possible to his lord- 
 «hip*s palace." 
 
 Now, my lords, tbere is another 
 ottence w liich appears on the face of 
 tiiis bill, and it is, that, when this 
 j>«^rson had the conttoul of her royal 
 ijighuess's household, his relations all 
 entered into her s*>rvice. Why I can- 
 not conceive a thing more natural : 
 it ««e€uM8 lo me that this can only have 
 beou brcmscht forward in the extreme 
 ai)*i«tv vi SMiAHe persons to make evfi \ 
 
 thing a matter of charge against l*#r 
 royal hii^lmeaii. Does it ap])ear that 
 she knew of the relationship exittiti^ 
 hetween Berganii and many of the 
 persons who fdled ofKces in her house- 
 hold. Doe& it appear that she knew 
 uf the person in the stable being a 
 relation, or any of the others \>ho 
 were employed in lower situations in 
 her hou:iehuld. There is not the 
 • mallefit proof of the fact that it was 
 done with her knowledge. If it was 
 done by Bcrgami alone, 1 should say 
 he acted most pr«,ierly in so doing. 
 But, my lords, in tliis case there was 
 nothing like a concealment of the pro- 
 motion ; nor can I conceive a reason 
 why there should have been ; I think 
 nolhii'g could be more prudent or 
 more projier than his elevation ; I • 
 thitik it was co.isisTehi, and I think it 
 was proper. Tliere was no other in-. 
 dividual who could with so much pro- 
 priety have been placed in that ne- 
 cessary and indispensable situation 
 then ii'i the service of her royal high- 
 ness ; and 1 will here say, that ihe 
 elevation of this individual is almost 
 the only circumstance that can now 
 be relied upon as a proof of guilt. 
 Well then, my lords, it appears that 
 between the period of her royal higb- 
 ness's leaving Nnjdes, ami her going 
 onboard the polacca, he had become 
 her chamberlain : in that character it 
 was his duty to attend constantly upon 
 the person of her royal highness— to 
 guard her by night., and tn attend her 
 by day — to be constantly within call^ 
 and always at her connnaud : this was 
 his duty, and this was done regularly, 
 without any attempt to disguise it 
 fron) the eyes of any of the persoi>« 
 surrounding her royal highness. It is 
 too much to impute it lo any thing 
 like the inference which my learHe«l 
 friend ha^ drawn from it. 1 shall n(»w 
 take the liberty of a«lverting to lUe 
 evidence respecting the polacca, for 
 that is almost the only part of the case 
 which my learned friend can touch. 
 I did n;)t, ye^tv-'rday, do justice to the 
 wituesss, to whom I alluded in his 
 staten)«;it on that part of the case; 
 lor so far was he from leaving it to 
 surmise that a criminal connexion 
 took place upon that occasion, that I 
 think he endeavoiued to make out the 
 I distinct fact as within his own know- 
 ! ledge. This witness was no other 
 ' than Majocchi; and y »Mr lordships 
 will find, ihat it was not ihynglu sulti- 
 
1>KPI-NCE OF TWE QUREJf. 
 
 359 
 
 cienl t<» fall upon your lordships to pn*- 
 iiouiice a verdict of Jf '"'0'» up"» t'^^ P**-'- 
 suinptiojj of a giiiliy iuicrconrse, bui lie 
 ii uU.) called to prove the fact of a cri- 
 minal coMuexiou having taken j'lace. 
 In page 'J6 of the evidence, yonr lord- 
 ships \»ill lind the witness M.ijocchi 
 say, he was siitinj; under the tent in 
 the ctihin, and he heard a noise : he h 
 then asked what thai noise resembled : 
 he sayi, " why it appeared to be a 
 oreakin}c noise in the teist." And 
 then, with that admirable talent for 
 iniuiickry, he g^avo your lordships the 
 H sort of uoise wldch he said he heard j 
 P ihii is a pretty ucco-uut, i*nd a parallel 
 P" vtith the powers of his eyesight, where 
 he {;ave an account of what he saw, 
 wheu he said he saw her royal hi^h- 
 ;je»s passing four times throuijh his 
 chamber to that of Berganii's, for the 
 express purpose, one would suppose, 
 of his seeing her. It is uecessary to 
 allude particularly to thw part of the 
 fase, for it is ratlier unfortunate for 
 tlie story which this Majocchi tells j 
 i'tir ou thii occasion he slates, that he 
 Nvas sleeping on a sofa in the cabin, 
 while it was pirfectly clear, in alUuiiu^ 
 to this, that there was uo sofa on which 
 it was possible for him to sleep. Your 
 lordhhips will find iu page 109, Paturz<> 
 say*, «o far from Majocchi sleeping 
 »u ihe cabin, that he slept in the 
 h< Id 5 it appears he was subject to 
 t'ii'kiic'is, and of so painful a natur^*^ 
 thai P^iuzit fiuys, there was actually 
 » hnnmu>ck slung for hini in the 
 )* dd, nt:d iu tliat hammock was his I 
 phuv f.ir •lecpiny, ko that instead of 
 fcloej)iuff in the cabin on a sofa, he 
 sWpt in his hammock in the hold. In 
 page 708, lieutenant Hownam in his ' 
 cvidence,distiiictly states that there were j 
 only four so'as on board— two of them ' 
 wore kept in the cabin of her royal high- i 
 nrrg the other two iu the cabin of the • 
 countesft of Oldi; therefore to have ■ 
 heard this oiitraordinary creaking he I 
 must have got eithqr into the cabin of 
 her royal highness, or that of the coun- } 
 U'ss of Oldi. Mow can I disi)rove this sort 
 of twin fact of his eyesight and hear- 
 ing ? Now, my lords, 1 adverted yes- 
 terday to tl.e evidence of lieutenant 
 V'lyun. He stated that he believed 
 lie garni slept, during the voyage -from 
 Tunis to Jaffa, in the dining room ; 
 and it is remarkable, in looking mi- 
 nuu'ly at the evidence ou the other tide, 
 thai the beli«^' of lieutenant Flyun waft 
 
 derived froiH oonsi Icrable probability, 
 it is stated, 4 think, in p. lOy, by Fa- 
 turzo, timi l>ergami slcpton the voyage 
 to Jaffa ill the dining-room. He «ays 
 there were two beds iu the tent ; th,e 
 princess Jjicpt in one. He is asked; 
 whetlie. Uergami slept in the othw,. 
 aud he said he did not know ; when the, 
 tent was down he did not know whe- 
 ther Bergnmi was under the tent, 
 for when the tent was closed he 
 could not see. There was a great 
 uuiny horses heU)w, which made so 
 mucli noise, aud there was sucl) a smell, 
 that the priicess could not bear (o 
 sleep belo«. Ho slates further, "that 
 t'.ie cabin was di\idcd into two, out of 
 which one was a room formed as a 
 sleeping»room for the princess, and the 
 other for the countess of Oldi, and the 
 bed of Bergami was placed in the 
 dining-room." There were these two 
 bed-places in the voyage from Jaffa. 
 He answers to one question, '* the bed 
 of the princess remained where it was ; 
 as for the bed of l^ergami, when he 
 got up ths bed was rolled up; but I 
 never paid any attention whether it 
 was there or not." So that his evr- 
 dence is perfectly consistent with the 
 account given by lieut. Flyuu, that the 
 same arrangement might have con- 
 tinued ou the voyage homeward, which 
 was made on the voyage out ; that the 
 sRme bed iu the cabin, which was oc- 
 cupied by Bergami on the otitward 
 voyage might iiave been sle})t in by 
 him ou their return. I have another 
 witness whose testimony, thotigh iti 
 Some points it needs sujiport, yet, 
 wheu it is given in favor of the prin- 
 cess, will not, I suppose, be impeached, 
 Iu p. 292 madanie De Mont is asked, 
 *' what beiame (»f tiie bed which had 
 been occupied i>y Bergami iu the 
 
 dinii 
 
 > 1 do not recollect.' 
 
 Then I do infer from that, that the 
 same arrangeujcut took place home- 
 ward as outward. It is perfectly con- 
 sistent with the evidence of lieutenant 
 Flynn, that he slei»t in the dining-room. 
 My lords, it would be too much to 
 infer that Bergami did not sleep there, 
 because lieutenant Hownam had seen 
 Bergami handing the princess down 
 stairs, aud that he believes he slept in 
 the tent, because he heard others say 
 that he did. My lords, what could be 
 more natural, than that when the 
 weatlier was perfectly calm, to Hud 
 that some of the females attendant 
 
3C0 
 
 DEFENCK OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 upon her royal bifibness, who kept 
 ihejr stomachs, should reujaiii in the 
 tent; but that when there was rough 
 weather, or any alarm, any fear of 
 pirates or of the crew— for a Sicilian 
 crew are not sometimea very fit to be 
 trusted, no, not for an hour, in those 
 Reas — that then she should have some 
 male attendant about her? What more 
 uatmal than to have a person whom 
 she had promoted, and who was in 
 duty bound to be in attendance on her? 
 It may be said, why not have had 
 lieutenant Hownam or Flynn ? It 
 would have been as well no doubt. 
 But at such a period it would be their 
 duty to take the vessel out of the hands 
 of Sicilian mariners, and place it in 
 the hands of those who in all situations 
 are the most proper. It does not ap- 
 pear to me that any person should 
 have been there who was liable to be 
 called away at the very moment of 
 time wlien they should render her the 
 assistancewhich her situation required. 
 It is in evidence, that her royal high- 
 ness never took off her clothes in the 
 course of the voyag-e. I dare say there 
 was no one individual who was in at- 
 tend-auce upon her but what was per- 
 mitted more frequently to indid^e in a 
 change of clothes than herself. 
 
 My lords, a trreat deal was said as to 
 a bath which her royal highness took 
 on board the polacca, but what if it is 
 shewn to have been an impossible 
 thing, and that the account, as giveu 
 by some of the witnesses, has beeu 
 contradicted by others, and that she 
 who contradicted Majocchi, must I 
 think be credited, because she has 
 shewn a disposition to give the most 
 malicious etfect to every tiling that 
 could be staled against her royal high- 
 ness. It is supposed that Bergami was 
 below stairs wiih her ruyal highness— 
 De Mout was only called to attend her. 
 Why, it wuuld be quite absurd and 
 ridiculous to suppose a lady of forty- 
 eight travelling ju a polacca in the 
 Mediterranean sea, attended by ttie 
 persons whose duty it was to attend 
 her, and to infer a criminal connection 
 taking place under a tent, because 
 Bergami prepared a bath, and sem a 
 maid-servani to attend her with clean 
 linen afterwards. In the dining-rooui 
 curtains might have been placed, or a 
 skreen might have been perpetually 
 jdaced, while the person who was ai- 
 tending mi-ht be in the i^ext room to 
 give a supply of water if necessary, 
 
 but v\;thout the »iightest idea, or the 
 slightest possibility of seeing what tiie 
 \\ouiau was aboui. Now the witness 
 I would call to prove this fact is, 1 
 think, Paturzo. [The learned counsel 
 here referred to the notes of the evi- 
 dence for a few minutes.] My lords, I 
 am extreniely sorry to detain your 
 lordships a moment while I turn to the 
 evidence as to this fact. I hope I ishail 
 receive your lordships' indulgence. My 
 lords, I will just observe, while 8c;me 
 of my learned friends point out the 
 part, thai there is an Italian witness, 
 who said that her royal hii^hness and 
 Bergami, when in their respective beds. 
 Could see one tinother; it is iu p. 05. I 
 believe, in page 118, it is in the evi- 
 dence of Gargiulo—** What kind of a 
 bed was it ihi^t the princess occu- 
 pied, was it a single or a double bed ?" 
 ** two sofas joined together, that would 
 make together six palms and a half; 
 it wa> about the breadth of six leet 
 and a half." '1 hat is proved by Gar- 
 giulo. 'J'hen Paturzo says as to the si/e 
 of the room, which 1 will refer your 
 lordships to presently. I am reminded, 
 that on board the polacca — this is iu 
 contradiction of Majocchi, if it is worth 
 while to state any thing for the pur- 
 pose of contradicting him — he denies 
 any communication between the cabiu 
 of her royal highness and that of the 
 countess of Oldi. 1 hat is contradicted 
 by several of the witnesses. 
 
 My lords,' the next part of the case 
 to which your lordshipi' attention was 
 called Iu the opening of my learned 
 friend was, what was to be proved by 
 Sacchi as to his arriving iu the night 
 from a journey to Milan, when Ber- 
 gami came, not from his own room, 
 but from some other room— inferring 
 most undoubtedly that he had conje 
 from the bed-room of her royal high- 
 ntss upon hearing that Sacchi had ar- 
 rived. But when we come to look at 
 the evidence which Sacchi gave upon 
 that occasion, it by no means make* 
 out the statement of my learned friend; 
 so far from saying that he came from 
 the room of her royal highness, he ex- 
 pressly states he came from a room of 
 which he did not know the occupier, 
 therefore it is impossible to sujiposc it 
 was her royal highr.ess's. " I returned 
 immediaLely iifier midnight ; 1 disr 
 mounted from my horse ; J went into 
 the kitchen, where 1 found a footman, 
 whom 1 asked where Lergami was ; 1. 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 361 
 
 mounted llic stairs, and went into the 
 anti-rooin of t e apartment of litr- 
 gami ; I found a servant of Beigami 
 aslee;), and I went towards Bergjami's 
 bed-room : finding the door open I w'^nt 
 in, siod saw the hedof iJergami tumbled, 
 but tiicre was nobody iu it." 1 will 
 hero oh erve to your lordships, Aviiy 
 was not that s« rvant called to confirm 
 Sacchi. "What did }ou do? I went 
 away, and in goin^^ away 1 heard a 
 iioi>e on the opposite sid.', and ut the 
 same time 1 heard ' Who is there?' 
 then 1 knew it was the voice of Fer^ 
 pauii, to \>hom I answered, it was the 
 courier returned from r>lilan. IJerf^ami 
 told me there was no such necessity to 
 jiive him this answer. Bergami was at 
 tliat time in his dressing gown ; I saw only 
 aljout his breast, which was unbuttoned, 
 or untied, and 1 saw nothing else but 
 hi^ shirt. I ^aw him iu a room where 
 there was a f^oor op])osite to the door of 
 his room. I ccmld not see where Ber- 
 gami came from on account of the 
 darkness." *' Where did that door lead 
 to whi h you have mentioned, which 
 was ojtposite to Bergami's room ? It 
 led into more rooms." '* Who occu-^ 
 pied those room^.-* No one." '* Do 
 }f)u know what rooms weic beyond 
 those rooms; do you know where the 
 princess slept? I do not." And this 
 is the evidence from which it is to be 
 irjferred that he came from the prin- 
 cess's bed-room. But in a subsequent 
 part, page 431, the same inference is 
 to he made, and the period, how much 
 later we do not knov/, when the 
 same witness returned from carrying a 
 letter to General Pino, and delivered 
 a verl)al 'answer to the princes~>, the 
 witness says that Bergami was seen 
 coming from the place where he was 
 se. n nu the former night, near to the 
 anti-room of her royal highness, — 
 •' Where was the princess when you 
 delivered that answer? In h<T own 
 auti-cbamber." *' Whereabouts in 
 that anti-chamber.' Immediately after 
 mounting the stairs, by turning to the 
 left thee was a corridor, and by turn- 
 ing ag.'xin to the left hand through this 
 corridor, after a few paces, there was 
 on the !efl the anti chamber of the 
 princess." " Was that anti-chamber 
 of her royal highness near the place 
 where you saw Bergami ? It was nciir 
 the place where I saw Bergami." Now, 
 is this consistent with common sense? 
 1 v€*iture to say, that the thing stated 
 
 46 
 
 by Sacchi is perfectly impossible; and 
 no reasonable mind can draw such a 
 conclusion as is attempted to bedrawn# 
 I ihink, therefore, that that particular 
 case is entirely got rid of oven on the 
 evidence as given by Sacchi. 
 
 My lorils, I proceed to look to a fur- 
 tlier statement which was made, and I 
 would call your lord«hips' attention to 
 the ntode in which/it was introduced, 
 IMy lords, the evidence I now point to 
 is described in page 90 ; the bath-room 
 is described as being only from six to 
 seven feel large, and Majocchi is asked 
 as to its furniture; he said there was a 
 sola bed there ; tlie room was from six 
 to seven feet large, and in it there was 
 a sofa bed ; the sofa was six feet and a 
 half long, and yet it was in this room 
 that her royal highness was supposed 
 to have taken the bath; is not this a 
 most effectual contradiction ? If it is 
 I not, I know not v\hat is. There is a 
 I list of sixteen overt acts, if 1 may so 
 call them, three of them rest on the 
 evidence of De Mont. What occurs at 
 JSaples, the night of the masked ball, 
 and the scene iu the corridor, rest 
 upon her evidence alone, upon evidence 
 wliich is wholly incapablejof being con- 
 tr&dicted from any other quarter; but, 
 as far as opportunities have been given 
 of contradicting the eviiiencc in support 
 of tie bill, it has been effectually done. 
 1 hen there was opened by my learned 
 frieod the scene in Catania, but that is 
 proved by no other person. I am now 
 going to .?al! your lordships' attention 
 to a part of the evidence of De Mont 5 
 it is to the night her royal highness 
 passed at Charuitz,and to that import- 
 ant part as to the marks on the bed. 
 Here is a lady supposed to have gone 
 to bed, and to have been disturbed in 
 the middle of the night by a gentle- 
 man who had hmg been iu her house- 
 hold ; the maidservant is sleeping in 
 the room with her lady, and, on this 
 gentleman's arrival, she is turned out, 
 and the gentleman is supposed imme- 
 diately to enter as naturally as if it pro- 
 1 ceeded from a matrimonial connexion; 
 I now that must be the impression sought 
 1 to be produced by tins part of the case. 
 This is represented as if this had been 
 a place where all the comforts of life 
 were attainable, as if there had been 
 no bustle, no breaking up of the party, 
 as if there had been a long delay, and 
 the lady had been undressed for tl» 
 purpose of going to bed, and the gfeitr 
 
S62 
 
 DEFENCl-: OP THE QUEEN, 
 
 tlemati had undressed on {roinsrinto the - 
 room. Now all this is inferred and sup- 
 posed to have been the case, that he ! 
 had j^oue to bed in the sam-^ room ; i 
 but we have shewn that the witness j 
 who attempted to pro\e this^ was not 1 
 entitled to belief we liave done j 
 more, we have proved at prestMit, in a j 
 ■way that it is not possible t) doul)t, j 
 that De Mont is not entitled to cre''it i 
 at all ; and we charge her with malice 
 and eorruption, and t!iat she has en- 
 deavoured to deceive my ifarned friend 
 in statin*^ in s:eneral terms such a cir- 
 cumstance, the effect of which must 
 have been removed if s ic had stated 
 all the circumstances whi h were 
 within her own knowle >e. Now what 
 are the facts of the case, and h*>w are 
 they proved ; it is perfectly true that 
 f^erg-ami returned from fnsprucrk, 
 where he had been to obtain passports 
 lon^ after it was dark : he returned 
 iietween one and two in t e morriiiis^. 
 Jt is perfectly true, no doubt, that ])e 
 Mont left her bed ; and it is equally 
 clear by the evidence, and cannot ba 
 denied, that the whole }>ar!y were m 
 motion, and left the plate as soon as 
 possible after the relurn of Bcr^ami, at 
 least as soon as word was broii<4ht that 
 riie snow was removed from the roads. 
 Her majesty was then on her journey 
 to the palace of Radstadt, which she 
 was Hot permitted to enter; thou5^h, 
 in the course of her journey, she seems 
 to have been received with the respect 
 and attention whiih was due to her vir- 
 
 the hed-r om.** Whereas, on thol 
 hed with the princess there was tire 
 little child Victorine, and the whole 
 suite left the place wit'- the first crlcam 
 of mornin<::. It »s ex'remey important 
 for your lordships to ref-r to pajr" 743, 
 where you have the evidence of lieute- 
 nant Hownam In> the first case, as 
 proved by ! e M'mt. there is nothinsf 
 at all as to h insj dressed or undr- ssed, 
 or from hich ^ ou could in the least 
 suppose that her roval highness did not 
 i;o to her bed-chamber, and went to rest 
 in tbe ordinary way, and bavins: taken 
 . otFher clothes. It is only in pasre "S'J 
 I that some lig^'it breaks in upon the 
 cross-cxaminrtion, and then tlie farts 
 ; which come out, show tlat no cr- 
 , minality could be inferred as aarainst 
 her royal highness. It is then proved 
 that it was not properly g:oin2r to 
 bed ; she continued on the bed till 
 the passport came, without bavins; 
 taken pff her -clothes, and when Be»- 
 o^ami came, she immediately put her 
 household in motion for the renewal 
 : of her io\irney. De Mont, in her cross- 
 , examination, is asked, *' I'id you tak© 
 off youf clothes? Not entirely. Had 
 you taken off more than your gfown ? 
 i I do not recollect ; but 1 believe nofc. 
 i Had the princess undressed? I do not 
 I recollect; she was in bed, but I do not 
 j recollect whether she was undressed." 
 j Your lordships see the not beinsj uiw 
 j dressed is concealed as Ions: as it po»- 
 ] sibly can be. '* f ask you if the priiw 
 cess was undressed? I do not recol- 
 
 tues and her rank ; but there being ; lent. Do you remember the dress that 
 iome irregulirity in ber passport, she ' the princess was in the habit of wearing 
 wa« obliged to take up her abode in a at that time ? Yes. Was it not a blue 
 
 miserable inn, wholly incapable of af 
 fording accommodation for her majfesty 
 ar her suite: so miserable was the 
 place, that we find straw was laid 
 <Iowu in the corridor for' some of the 
 Inf rior servants. It does not appear 
 tiiat any body went to bed, exc.^pt the 
 princess and De Mont; the evidence as 
 to this part of the case is in pages 3^1, 
 l!23, and 3 3. All that is stated by De 
 
 habit trimmed with fur, close rbund up 
 to the nec^ ? Yes, there was a great 
 deal of fur here, a?, the bosom, audit 
 was a blu • dress " A most incouvo- 
 nient dress, surely, for any improper 
 purpose. " Had hotfhe process gone 
 upon the bed, or mtothe bed, with that 
 dress upon hev ia the middle of the 
 day ? Yes. Do you mean to say, th t 
 fro'm the middle of the day wiien she 
 
 Mont is, '* We went to l>ed at ten I had got into the bed, or on the bed. 
 
 o'clock. 1 had a small bed in the same 
 room with the princess. Bergami re- 
 turned al>out midnig.St. I do not know 
 tJie exact time because I had already 
 fallen asleep. On tbe arrival of Ber- 
 puni I was told I mi^'ht take up my 
 bed and go. Bergami was in the prin- 
 cess's room when thes* orders were 
 ^veu me, and I went aw^y for the 
 nisUt, leavii^ Bejgapo^, aa I thi:!k, ia 
 
 she had undres.sed herself at all ? [ 
 saw her royal highness on the l:>ed dur- 
 ing' the day in that same riding habit. 
 Did you s'ee her royal highn ss take it 
 off at all whilst she re;iiaiued at that 
 itm? I do not recollect seeing it. — 
 Vou youj-elf were upon a bed in the 
 same room with he ? Yes. — You leXt 
 that small inn fts you describe eai^ly i^ 
 lh« moi'aUig, did you aot ? Yes. '^ If 
 
DKiPiXCE OF THE QUKKJf. 
 
 3C3 
 
 hei: examination in chief is looKed at 
 oDiy, it woulii apnear stu'h was the se- 
 curity <»f Ihf parties, that they actf'd 
 >»ith as little appearance of caution, 
 ta if they were husland autl wife, '^he 
 is then asl-ed by my learned friend as 
 to the cause of her dismissal, and it 
 appears that within a very short period 
 she was sent out of her royal highness's 
 service, to wh ch, I believe-, .she wobld 
 haTe been vey happy to have returned. 
 ] will here beg to make a few observa- 
 tions upon the letier sent to her sister, 
 but intended, by her own statement, 
 to be seen l)y her royal hio:hncss. In 
 tlii^ leitej she endeavours to represent 
 to her royal highness that there w..s a 
 person ready to pay lier, if she was in 
 possession of any secret which would 
 dt^stroy the characler of her royal high- 
 ness, and that she was ready to disclose 
 or keep the secret, according as her 
 royal liighness should treat her. Taking 
 it in this point of view, this letter is no- 
 thing more or less than a threatening- 
 letter. In that very letter, she says to 
 her sister " I desire you to observe a 
 strict economy ; I am poor, but there 
 is a certaia gentleman from London, 
 who watches the secret movements of 
 her royal highness, who no sooner 
 heard of my dismissal than he came 
 and made me otters of a brilliant pa- 
 tronage." I know the meaning of that 
 hint : it ij that f.he can dispose of any 
 secret she is in possession of to advan- 
 tage; or if not in possession of one, it 
 she could fabricate one to the disad- 
 vantage of her royal highness. My 
 learned friend says, she only communi- 
 cated that she vvas the depositary of b, 
 dangerous secret ; but 1 say, that that 
 letier \ rores it vvas absolutely impos- 
 sible that she could have any tiue se- 
 cret to disclose injurious to her illus. 
 trious mistress. Does she send lier 
 any money, or take any steps to gin 
 her to her service? No; she leaves her 
 without any sort of notice, without any 
 application or promise to receive her 
 into her service, or any inducement by 
 which she can suppose her royal high- 
 ness will prevail upon her to keep any 
 such secret. It is utterly impossible to 
 suppose that this woman was in the 
 possession of such secret, even taking 
 that base and sordid view of the motive 
 of the witness as is ascribed to her by 
 th« Attoruey-Cieneral, but which is 
 necessary for him to give to her, eren 
 to get that letter at all. It shews, I 
 say, the Conduct of an artfulaod wickfrd 
 
 servant to an innocent mistress; but 
 I (laim tbe benefit of the charac- 
 ter v.liich that scLrva? t has, upon 
 other occasions, given of her n.ifclre^s. 
 iiut I go back to the .-'.tf-ur of ( I arnita, 
 '\y< pai;c 718, there lieutenant Hownam 
 Mates, that it was necessary t<f go hack 
 for passports to hmpruck ; thiif Ber- 
 LVami and cwjnt Va^'Siili w.^nt l)ack to 
 Inspnick, and returned about one or 
 two o'chirk in the morning. My 
 le.irncd friend a^ked lientcr.aiit How- 
 ram if he ri'coUected the stopping at 
 Charniiz ; if there was not a |^;rcat deal 
 of snow-, ai.d if they were not obliged 
 to cut their way through, befo>e her 
 royal higlmess and her suite could set 
 out, and whether many peri^ons were 
 not employed to cut away the snow, 
 and that it was near 6" o'clock in the 
 morning wi.en they set out to proceed 
 on tluir jourricy to the banicr lowr. 
 He then i.p( ak« of some further inter- 
 ruption ; bu^ ihere is not a single 
 question put to lieu tenant Hownam, to 
 shew tliat nny part of what was proved 
 J)y the witnos- Ue Mont, to sec how far 
 it would hv corroborated by him, 
 thouirh it i^ouUI r.ot'be doubted he was 
 well acquainted with the facts, if true, 
 deposed to by that witness. I now pro- 
 ceed to whai is staled in p. 937, ^s to 
 count Vas^ali ; and I trust your lord- 
 ships will thini< that it is no reflection 
 on any person to say he has been a 
 piivale soldier in a royal guard of ho- 
 nor. I say it is perfectly consistent 
 wiih the. highest respectability. I 
 know it seemed at lirst to strike us as 
 a little <*xtraor(iinary, that a person of 
 his genllemanlj manners and military 
 appearance should have so risen. Rut 
 it is, upon rctlection, not the least im- 
 pulaMon ; it is a condition indeed 
 vvhicli leads to the most respectable 
 society : for ,n«)ne of your lordships 
 could go into any of the towns on the 
 continent, where, there v as a rehpect- 
 able young man, without its being 
 mentioned that he had been selected to 
 be one of the gnard of honor, cither to 
 the emperor Napoleon, to Josephine, 
 Maria Louisa, or to the emperor of 
 Austria, in their passage through that 
 town, and it was regarded as a kind of 
 honor to the individual. The following 
 were a part of count Vassali's answers : 
 *' It was necessary for Berganii and 
 myself to go from Charnilz to Ins- 
 pruck about the passports. We set off 
 after dinner, after twelve o'clock, arui 
 leturucd between two and three in {\ie 
 
3C4 
 
 DEFENCE OF Tl'.E QUEENS 
 
 moriiins;* The moinont w<» returrK'd 
 ■we went into ti c room of her royal 
 highness, whom we found silting on ilie 
 bed, lear.iiig-, 'lalf lyiii<?. Was she 
 dressed? She was covered with shawls, 
 or something like it. Af«^r we Isad en- 
 tered, Schiavaii, and then the counters 
 of Oldi, came into her royal high- 
 ness's room from her own ; I saw the 
 
 rorrobora(io;i to the evidence of D 
 Mont, which ghevvs that the imputaiion 
 tlirown upon the testiun ny of l)e Mont 
 were felt to be well founded. It is per- 
 fectly impossible that my learned 
 friends sJiould not have known, that 
 Sacciji was a person who, in all pro- 
 bability, would be discredited and con- 
 tradicted at all points; and that De 
 
 little Victorine on the bed with her \ Mont stood in snch 
 royal hio:hness.'' This was a circum- 
 stance which De Wont carefully kept 
 out of sight as loii;,- as she could, as 
 •well as that of hei roval highness and 
 herself being- fully dressed. " I saw 
 De Mont iu the room; an officer of 
 |)olice had arrived in t'^e course of the 
 rx/forning; I spoke to t;ie officer, and 
 nfterwards 1 returned to the room of 
 her royal highness j 1 went into the 
 room often to make comumnications to 
 her royal highnebs ; I first went in to 
 inform her of ourarii\aI, then to see 
 if she wanted a.iy thing, then to inform 
 her as to the weather, and that the 
 people were clearing the road from the 
 gnow. I and Bergami and the rest of 
 the suite were constantly passing in 
 end out of the princess's room, and the 
 Euite remained up all night, making 
 |)reparations for her departure." When 
 
 he is asked whether all this bustle and 
 
 Ijreparatio.^ was necessary, he gives 
 this answer, which every person would 
 
 see the propriety of— « That one in at^ 
 tendance on a person of rank and im- 
 |)ortance, r.iust be in almost perpetual 
 
 movement." He likewise gave such a 
 
 statement as rendered the impatience 
 
 of her royal highness to leave the pUce 
 
 end proceed on her journey perfectly 
 
 natural. He said, that she had been 
 
 reposing on the bed from ]2 o'clock 
 
 on the preceding day till they returned 
 
 ill the morning, and therefore had no 
 
 need of any Itirther repotic. I am sure 
 
 every person mnst feel that nothing 
 
 could be more natural ; and I put it, 
 
 that there is nothing inconsistent in this 
 
 account ot Vassali's — thai it accords 
 
 compUtely with the statement of 
 
 lieutenant Howuam, and is only iacon- 
 
 Sisteut with tlie original itory', as de- 
 posed to by De Mont, which was no- 
 
 tiilng like the truth of the case. In 
 
 another part of tke evidence, your 
 
 lordships will recollect, it is stated that 
 
 Sacchi had been sent to Chamitz, and 
 
 yet extraordinary as it must appear, no 
 
 Question was put to him about this part 
 
 SP the transaction to elicit his infor- 
 
 matiott OS the subject, or to gain his 
 
 a situation as to 
 stand in need even of his corroboration. 
 The next part of the case to which I 
 go, is that which is stated to have oc- 
 curred at Carlsrhue; ami here it be- 
 comes a little important to consider the 
 circumstances in which her roval high- 
 ness was placed. It is impossible not 
 to look back with regret, and as a sub- 
 ject of complaint, to the calamities 
 which this illustrious lady has had to 
 struggle with during her married life. 
 She had left this country, followed by a 
 variety of reports, maliciously in- 
 vented, and industriously circulated by 
 the rancorous malignity of her ene- 
 mies- She perfectly well knew that 
 she was surrounded by those who were 
 anxious to destroy — not merely her re- 
 putation — but her life; and yet, iu the 
 course of her journjes, she resorted to 
 to no less than fifty different inns, at no 
 one of which has her conduct been im- 
 peached, except by that respectable 
 witness, PietroCuchi, and that equally 
 respectable witness— that modest young 
 womaiJ — Mrs. Barbara Kres?. 1 can- 
 not, my lords, help again referring to 
 the general statement that I made yes- 
 terday. How could it be possible, if 
 there was any adulterous connexion 
 going on, with a chambermaid, so con- 
 stantly oa the watch, not to discover so 
 important a secret. How was it, if 
 the charge was true, that the bed linen, 
 and the body-linen of the parties, 
 should not in this, as in other instances, 
 have betrayed the guilty intercourse. 
 Le- me go back to the polacca : there, 
 it was true, there was no regular bed- 
 clothes ; for there was only matting; 
 but there was the body-linen, which 
 must have betrayed ,the marks of such 
 an intercourse, if it bad existed. But 
 there was not even an attempt on the 
 part of my learned frieiid to extract 
 any such fact from De Mont ; 1 there- 
 fore infer, that my learned fiiend knew 
 it was not true, and that she was per- 
 fectly awdre, if the attempt to prove it 
 had been made, it would have been 
 most effectually contradicted. Then as 
 to the fact at Carlshrue, I beg to €adl 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 3G5 
 
 your lordships attpntion to the circum- 
 stances iu which her royal hijjbness was 
 livin-; at that period. Was it possihie 
 to doubt, that from .-oine strange and ^ 
 unfortunate attempt to destroy this il- 
 lustrious lady, individuals thought it 
 mij^ht be to their advantage to pursue 
 her with fr^^sh calumnies and that 
 persons of hi<;h authority were placed I 
 as spies about her. How else comes it j 
 to pass, that, for the first time since the i 
 reformation, a Hanoverian minister was 1 
 then sent to the court of Rome ? Why j 
 else was it, that then,for the first time, i 
 a minister from this piotcstant court | 
 was accredited to his holiness the j 
 pope ? What other reason was there, i 
 except that baron Ompteda might ' 
 Come repeatedly to her royal hi^h- 
 ness's table — be her ^uest — and after- 
 wards, her prosecutor and betrayer. 
 What was the reason that, whenever 
 any question was put to any witness, 
 as to that objectionable name of 
 Ompteda, that some one of my learned 
 friends immediately started up with 
 an objection, that the mouth of the 
 witness might be closed, and be pre- 
 vented from giviug any inforinatiou 
 upon a point, which I am sure your 
 lordships will leel essential to the 
 coming at the truth of the case. It 
 was evident that Majocchi had been 
 instructed by somebody, and for some 
 bidden reason, to say that he did not 
 even know the, name of Ompteda ; 
 that it was as much unknown to him 
 as that of any chieftain in the Sand- 
 wich Islands. Now Madame De 
 Mont states, that, though she knew 
 the name of Ompteda, yet she never 
 beard the slightest imputation on him, 
 ^ of his discharging the honourable 
 duties of a gpy ; she never heard of 
 locks being picked, or of servants 
 suborned : she has not the slightest 
 idea of any such fact ever having taken 
 place in the family of her royal high- 
 ness. Let us look at the evideuce 
 which is suppressed and kept back 
 from us on this occasion, becavise your 
 lordships cauuot forget that we were 
 told by Rastelli, that most active agent 
 for the Milan commission, that he ac- 
 companied Mr. Cooke, at the head of 
 that commission, to Frankfort, for the 
 purpose of getting an |important wit- 
 ness of the name of Morris Credi, who 
 had been a servant in the house of 
 her royal highness, and who is de- 
 scribed as having been employed to 
 pet pOsession of some of her royal 
 
 hij^htiess's letters. Why U not Credi 
 called to explain this sirant^e and 
 mysterious atfair ; he was a servant 
 in' the family when this was going 
 forward, he was "a witness capable of 
 telling as much probably as any that 
 these persons could have told, and, 
 perhaps, was quite as willing to have 
 told them. He might have been 
 brought here to make the whole state- 
 ineni of the case, whiclj it is so essen- 
 tial to public justice to have thorough- 
 ly silted to the bottom ; he went to 
 Frankfort to be examined by Mr. 
 Cooke, but he was not suffered to be 
 examined by my friends nor cross- 
 examined by us. There is also, a wit- 
 ness of the name of Pri?,son, who is 
 not called, nho wa=. in the service of 
 her royal highness, whom Rastelli saw 
 when he went to Frankfort ; but he 
 is not now called as a witness for 
 them. She is proved to be in this 
 country, and though my learned 
 friends have stated that they were so 
 anxious to bring every thing before 
 your lordships, in order that a fair 
 and impartial conclusion might be 
 drawn ; yet they have not ventured to 
 call that' witness. Now, my lords, 
 with regard to that witness, Majoc- 
 chi, you cannot have forgotten the 
 circumstances under which he denied 
 any knowledge of Ompteda. I think, 
 on the second day of his cross-exami- 
 nation, he states with the utmost deaf- 
 ness, that he has no knowledge at all 
 of him; he is quite a Stranger to the 
 affair, and has nothing to say on the 
 subject; Vie does not even know such 
 a person. But now 1 will produce to 
 you the evidence of William Carriug- 
 ton, and, in introducing that witness, 
 I beg to call your attention to the dif- 
 ference of situation in which my 
 learned friends on the other side arc 
 placed to what we are, a^id the great 
 disadvantages we have had iu this 
 case. Wm. Carrington has no sooner 
 left this bar (with the universal con- 
 fidence and approbation 1 am quite 
 surejof every honest man who saw 
 and heard hiin give his evidence,) 
 than the materials for his cross-exa- 
 mination are brought forward by the 
 first lord of the Admiralty ; the books 
 are searched, his captain is called to 
 town, and he is cross-examined with 
 the possession of these materials ; and 
 every act of his life is sifted with the 
 utmost minuteness. Do I complain 
 of this ? No J if it were not irregular 
 
3d6 
 
 DEFlvWtIi or THK QUisfiiJ. 
 
 1 vvouhi oiler luy best thanks to the 
 uohic Jord, who, wiih great abiliiy 
 aiiti perseverauce, couducted that 
 Cfosi-exaiuiuaiiou ; ami it ledonnds 
 to the lionur of the individual con- 
 cerned in it. Let u& not suppose that 
 wc attack witnesses because ihey are 
 in XUe lower ranks of life, I say, what 
 toreign writers have said of this C(»un. 
 try, that you may find £;€n^;leoaen in 
 the lowest class of society. 1 say, 
 t])at ill whaiever part of society that 
 man's lot may be cast, he ha^i been 
 made a jjenileniau, and his evidence 
 will not be disputed by any person 
 who deserves the name of gentlenian. 
 He states to you all the conversation 
 at pages 558, 579, and 719, and he 
 undergoes the strictest cr(6s-exami- 
 naiion in the whole of. this case ; and , 
 I will venture to say, that anything; ,' 
 UK>re clear, more satisfactory, and ' 
 liUiie convincing, was never drawn ; 
 from any vtilness who appeared in a | 
 tojit of jusiice. It is perfectly clear, ! 
 that this Majocchi, who came here, | 
 was instructed to deny the knowledge ! 
 of Ompteda, Carrington states, that ; 
 that witness expressed the utmost in- \ 
 di^nation against Ompteda, because ,' 
 he had brouj^ht all the serrants into ! 
 s.uspicion ; and declared that if he 
 could n\eet Ompteda in the street, he ! 
 would kill him like a dog- ; and his ; 
 tToss-examination was in the highest 
 degree satisfactory. And after this ! 
 }Wiug man, Carringtou, had under- 
 gone two or three cross-exaniiuations, 
 it was proved, a\ he had stated, that ; 
 lie was a midshipman, as he had de- ' 
 scribed himself, of the Poictiers. After i 
 thai, Sir John Beresford was called, , 
 who declared;- that he never parted j 
 with a sailor vvitli so much regret, j 
 l>ecause he never knew a more excel- ! 
 lei)t man in the service. What an ad- { 
 vantage there would have been to ray 
 learned friends, supposing there had 
 been, in the whole life of this man, a 
 sjngle blot in his character. What a 
 ditK'fence there is between this v\it- 
 ness and foreigners, who have come 
 fronj all the distant comers of the 
 world. We have no Admiralty books 
 to refer to, we know, nothing of fo- 
 reigners and foreign governments, but 
 their ceremonious attention in forcing 
 witnesses to come to this country 
 against her majesty, and their uucere- 
 monious conduct in not permitting 
 witnesses to come over here in her 
 favour, when we have no power to 
 
 j compel the production of a suxg^ 
 j paper — it is the moat striking iilu*- 
 j traiion that ever was found of the uiv 
 j paralleled and infinite disadvantage! 
 under which her majesty has been la- 
 bouring in the course of this proceed- 
 ing. It was utteily impossible for ua 
 to bring f(.rward facts to show that 
 tbcy were subject to discredit out of 
 their own mouths ; therefore, this 
 person is so contradicted, and in such 
 a manner, as to leave the strongest 
 suspicion that the story told by De 
 Mont is perfectly true, and that the 
 story told by Majocchi was perfectly 
 true, and that there were individual* 
 base enough to intrude themselves 
 into the intimacy of her royal high- 
 ness with a purpose of imputing dis- 
 graiefiil facts to her. Now we come 
 to Carlsruhe ; and I think we find that 
 no Jess than three ministers are em- 
 ployed to collect evidence to send to 
 this country of what happened to them ; 
 and we find that one o^ those ministers 
 receives her royal highness into his 
 apartments, and that the moment she 
 leaves those chambers, he is ^ouud 
 running about the room, searching for 
 all that he thinks may tend to coiivict 
 her. 1 think it is by no means un- 
 charitable to say, but most absurd to 
 den\, that they thought they then had 
 her ill the trap. They were quite sur« 
 that something could be found to work 
 to her royal highness's detriment, and 
 some witnesses wh«v could depose to 
 souseihiiig from which an unfavour- 
 able inference might be drawn, or that 
 it would he their own fault if they did 
 nDt. Tliey find in the chambermaid 
 of Carlsruhe a willing witness against 
 her. What is it she says ? Why she 
 sava, that on one evening she went 
 with some water to the room of Ber- 
 gami, and that she saw the princess 
 sitting on his bed, while he had his 
 arm round her neck. That will be 
 found in page 182. It is by no means 
 immaterial, that almost every indi- 
 vidual states his ov\n case ; each wit- 
 ness produces his own case; and it is 
 very remarkable that this Mistress 
 Kress, wiio proves her case, receives 
 no confirmation in any part of it what- 
 ever, but receives'a direct contradiction 
 from the courier Sacchi, as to a fact 
 which could not be stated by him 
 without the probability of raising a 
 suspicion in the minds of your lord* 
 ships : for she states that the courier 
 had arrived before the bed was made. 
 
DKFKNCK OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 3(57 
 
 Wic say^, '' T/lie courier arrived, ami 
 tiien ] placed that bed in No. 12. What 
 sort of a bed wa^ that \u No l2 ? A broad 
 l^i. ^\'a3 that bed in No 12 placed be- 
 fore the princess arrive iJ, or was it pla- 
 ced there in consequence of the arrival of 
 the Princess? I had bren ordered to put 
 a broad bed. Had thi^ courier arrived 
 before that bed was placed in No 13: 
 T\m courier had arrived, and then I 
 placed this l)road bed ther^ to which I 
 ajludc." Now it i? perfectly clear, 
 that her royal hii^hncss sent a courier 
 forward^ knowing; that at Carliruhe tiie 
 beds were particularly small, and that 
 the infci-once intended lob.? drawn from 
 it is, that itAvas «o ordered for the pur- 
 pose of affardinoj an (^])port»niity for a 
 criminal ititercourse with Bero;;nni. But 
 if you turn to p. 435, to Sacchi's ac- 
 QOual of the transaction, you will find 
 that, so far from any thing of that sort 
 happeninsT, no change was ordered tube 
 made by hiui at (,'arlsruhe. He was then 
 asked, ** In the course of that journey, 
 was not the 2:enerMl condition of the 
 bed-rooms for her royal hijjhnesi the 
 same?" A pretty good leading question 
 as to facts that took place three 
 years ajjo, hut the sanje kind of ques- 
 tions were put to Mnjocchi. He says, 
 ** I continued to.bcspeak the beds .is 
 ftir as Carlsruhe, but when we arrived 
 at CarlfTuhc the same tiiinj; happened 
 three as jiappcned at Turin as to the 
 arrnni^en^eut of the room, I did not 
 meddle with it any more duri.isj the 
 fSourney, leavingf her royal hi<;huess 
 to choose any rooms she liked.'' Now 
 V to his coming to order the beds, and 
 the placiitp: ti)e«n there under his dircc 
 Hons, he states, that he hapl £^iven the 
 ♦wders as far as Carlsruhe, hut wiien 
 they fret there the arrang;ements wore 
 actually altered. Now that is one cir- 
 C^imstance which shews that whenever 
 ttie parlies are fairly contrasted fog;e- 
 fher, it-will almost uniibrmly be fomid, 
 tjiat wherever there is an opportyiiitv 
 fior contradiction, thnt contradiction 
 >vill appear in the evidence they g;ive. 
 liow Barbara Kress says, that she re- 
 members Sacchi comin'j; the nii^hf before 
 and she does not recollect where the 
 Pri^ces^ and Berjami dined oil that 
 dny. Then she is asked, '* Mpou your 
 currying the water into No 12, did you 
 arc any persons in t at room ? 
 Vp6 C did" — [ only wish to know 
 liovr my learner! friends reconcile his 
 e^drnce wiih Mrs. Kress. She stales, 
 itiat her royal higtuicss was fitting (>n . 
 
 Berjrnmi'* bed, anti tiiat he Juad his arm 
 ror.iid (he Priuc;'s-' neck, and sjie irv- 
 s:ani]y started up ', but ^he (t!i.- witness) 
 did not stay furtlier to se(^ what passed. 
 Now in the first place, I will call your 
 attention to this fact, that in her cross- 
 examination she won't venture to deny 
 that she has stated that she went into 
 another room to saiisfy herself whether 
 the countess of Oldi' was the person 
 sitting o!i that bed ; I think that will 
 satisfy your lordships that the per&Qn 
 fitting there on that bed, could by no 
 possibility have been the princess of 
 Wales. She states in the course of her 
 examinatian that she will by no means 
 slate that she did not go into anotlier 
 room for I he purpose of ascertaining 
 whether the countess of (^Idi was there, 
 so that she had some doubt whether 
 the countess of Oidi was not the pes- 
 son who was sittin;^ on that bed, and 
 therefore 1 should infer that it is a moat 
 gross attempt to introduce that charg« 
 against her royal highness, vvhiehitis 
 quite impossible to believe. 1 would 
 call your lordships' attention to pag« 
 209, where she is asUed, ** After >ou 
 had seen the person that you took for 
 the Pr.nc. ss in the evening in Bergarai'a 
 room did you not go to see whether the 
 countess Oidi was in her room? No; 
 I carried immediately the water to No. 
 5, and there they were standing ; at 
 No. 5 the countess lodged." So that 
 she did go immediately after she had 
 been in i^ergami's room ; she did go 
 to the room of the countess of 01^. 
 *' Did no you go lo No. 5, in order to 
 see whether the countess was there ? 
 Ye«, 1 went, just t'lere. Did you not 
 go there for the purpose of geeing wh«- 
 I her the countess was there.' 1 went 
 and just saw that it was the Princesa. 
 Did not you go there for the purpose of 
 seeing- whether the countess was there? 
 No, 1 went not there ; I just carried 
 the water th-re. VV^ill you swear you 
 did not go to that room, upon the oath 
 that you have taken in ord' r to axccr- 
 taln whether the countess was there ? 
 I \»ent just there to carry tite water, 
 because I must do this, as I did it 
 every evening. \V ill you swear, by 
 the oath you have taken, that you did 
 not go to that room in part for the 
 purpose of ascertaining whether the 
 eowntcss of Oidi was there? 1 can- 
 not say this ; 1 did not go for that pur- 
 pose ; 1 have never thought that I 
 should be asked about this." She 
 knew what she «hould be asked, aild 
 
368 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 all tV.e surrcmnclino: facts which relates 
 to the transactions is cleared out of licr 
 mind. Then, alittle further, she says, 
 I have never had any thnuorht about this 
 ** I never thought I should be asked 
 about it."Then, on farther examination, 
 " Will you swear, upon the oath you 
 have taken, that you have never told any 
 person that you did go 'o the room of 
 the couiitp?s for the purpose of seeinj; 
 whether she was there or not ? — T can- 
 not recollect it; J have no thought 
 about it whether I have said it to any 
 bcdy. Will you PW'caryou never hadanv 
 conversation with any person about 
 ^oing into madame Oldi's room that 
 night: — I can swear that 1 never had a 
 conversation with any body about this 
 matter, — namely, that I went there for 
 the purpose of iiscertainincj whether 
 the countess Oldi was there or not." 
 Though she has already admitted that 
 she went into the countess of Oldi's 
 room for some yxr.rpose or other. N<>w, 
 my lords, T think «a these facts, it is 
 perfectly iin possible not to see, that if 
 there is any iruth whatever in these 
 circurpstancesto which she has deposed, 
 that she had some doubt of the person 
 fitting <'n that he'd ; and when yoa come 
 to look at the other parts of her evi- 
 dence, in which sho state- first of all, 
 all the circumstances from which this 
 inference is dra>vn, I think there is no i 
 part which furnishes any proof against \ 
 her royal highness. I only need to | 
 shew more clearly the najure of the \ 
 bargain: she went to Hanorer, and j 
 there saw baron BersJott ; her com- '' 
 pemation ;is very little! very little! j 
 which is the an'iwer that all ti ese per- • 
 sons give, except the captain and the ' 
 mate and Mrs. Kress. But those who ' 
 have uncertain compensations, know the { 
 circumstances of payment, and they i 
 know full well that <hey will have no I 
 chance of being paid, unlrs-. they swear ; 
 up to the mark, and therefore your 
 lordships will not lose sight of the ex- 
 traordinary and enormous compensation 
 (consider! nur the situation of this 
 woman in life) which she rrceived for 
 performing this journey. Nov/ another 
 circumstance from whicitlhi- is inferred 
 is, that on ore day she found a grey 
 cloak in the bed of Hergami, and she 
 states that she afterwards saw the cloak 
 on her royal highness. How it came | 
 on the bed nobody knows. But then } 
 ifty lords, there is a third fact of an ex- 
 traordinary description, which I have 
 before alluded to — the fact of stains i 
 
 which appeared upon the bed. Now it 
 is qnite left in the dark at what lime 
 those stains were found. At page 188, 
 ihc whole of that evidence is given, and 
 it is left entirely unproved the day and 
 the time, except that it was on the 
 morning of some day v>hen she was 
 making her bod on which those stains 
 were found, whether after or before the 
 time that she saw any body sitting on 
 the bed at the time she found the cloak 
 in the bed is left entirely uncertain; 
 ard when you come to look at what she 
 thinks proper to slate on oath on that 
 nig!-;, 1 am sure you will say (hat this is 
 not what is to be believed. In the first 
 place, the condiiion in which it is 
 found, is perfectly inconsistent, that 
 the stains should be at once the 
 colour, and yet in a state of hu- 
 midity—I take it to be an impossi- 
 bility. She is a married woman, and, 
 on being asked as o the nature of 
 those stains, she says she has not in- 
 spected them so nearly, but she ?aw 
 they were white ; she says she has 
 made the beds of married persons in 
 the house, and then, when asked as to 
 the appearance of those stains seen in 
 his bed, she has the impudence to say, 
 being brought here to prov;> nothing 
 material besides, if at least tliis is ma- 
 terial, " You will pardon me; I have 
 not reflected on tjiis, I have had no 
 thought on it wiiatever." For why, 
 then, if slie has had no thongfit of it 
 whatever, why is this statement made 
 here, and why is this reluctant witness 
 brought to make the people of England 
 believe this story. My lords, it is per- 
 fectly impossible a woman should so 
 conduct herself, who is callei to speak 
 t > a fact of that description ; she is 
 unprepared with an answer : if the 
 thing be true she ought to have de- 
 clared it. It is trifling with your lord- 
 ships' understandings to suppose thst she 
 is to be believed on this subject. And the 
 blush we saw on her face — the lastfcel- 
 ings'of expiring modesty — were ll>ey the 
 struggles of conscious truth, or the 
 last expiring stings of remorse, at hav- 
 ing told the falsehoods which she had 
 been forced to, tell,, you may judge 
 from her way of tellingthose falsehoods ; 
 she hi s condemned herself by the evi^ 
 deuce she then gave ; the evidence 
 she then gave is perfi ctly impossible, 
 and therefore she has committed 
 perjury, and I shall show it was per- 
 jury by the evidence which I can refer 
 to against her. My lords, at page 717, 
 
DEFENCE OF tHE QtlEEW. 
 
 369 
 
 Mr. Hownam states that he went to 
 Carlsrhue, that her royal highness was 
 there received by the grand chamber- I 
 lain on getting out of her carriage, and | 
 the b ron d'Ende was appo nted to j 
 atreud her always after ; tliat she was i 
 ahnost always at court, or in the family j 
 of the grand duke, that -.he dined l 
 usually during her stay at Carlsrhue at j 
 the court, or else at the • largravine's, i 
 the grand du e's mother, and that her | 
 royal higlmess mostly supped out. Tliat i 
 the supper was given at the grand | 
 duke's, and, as he thinks, once at the | 
 margravine's, and ti)ere were parties 
 assembled to meet her. This woman, ! 
 •who was an outcast, and who was then 
 in a state of public prostitution, and 
 become so unfit to be received any 
 where, because of the disgrace which 
 she brought on the honour and dignity 
 of the crown, was yet constantly dining 
 at the grand duke's, by whom parties 
 were assembled to meet iier, except 
 the first day's dinner at the margra- 
 vine's. He was cross-examined, at 
 page 767, not cross-examined, but some 
 questions were put to him by some of 
 your lordships : — " You have said, that 
 at Carlsrhue the princess dined with 
 the grand duke, except the day that she 
 dined with the margravine — did you 
 dine in company with her royal high- 
 ness on those occasions ? I did. 
 
 " You have suid also that she supped 
 at the grand duke's, and also at the 
 margravine's ; did you sup in company 
 with her? Yes, I did. 
 
 ** At what o'clock at that court is the 
 dinnei ? 1 positively cannot recollect 
 that. 
 
 ** About what hour? 1 do not recol- 
 lect the hour suflSciently to be able to 
 mark it. 
 
 *' Have you any recollection of the 
 lateness of the hour of supper and the 
 evening parties there? I cannot say to 
 what hour they lasted ; they lasted 
 late in the nights, probably twelve 
 o'clock, 
 
 " Can you, of your own knowledge, 
 say whet er the princess had time to 
 return home between dinner and sup- 
 per; between the dinner and the subse- 
 quently going to the other house, or 
 supping at the same house ? I should 
 imagine yes. 
 
 ** Did she, to yonr knowledge, on 
 any one of those days, return home 
 between the dinner and supper ? I do 
 not recollect that. 
 
 47 
 
 ** Will you unrlertake to say that she 
 did not ? I will undertake to say that 
 1 do not recollect the circumstance ; if 
 1 had the smallest recollection of i^ I 
 have no end in keeping it back, in 
 w.tholding it." 
 
 For which I am sure every man will 
 commend him. Then what chevjdier 
 Vassali says in page 935, puts the 
 question beyond all possibility of doubt : 
 he states that he arrived at Carlsrhue 
 on the 25th of March, 1818, and got 
 there ahout noon. Her royal highness 
 dined alternately with the grand duke 
 and the margravine, and passed the 
 evenings in company with those dis- 
 tinguished persons. He further states, 
 on one of the evenings, Bergami com- 
 plained of having the head-^che, and 
 joined his sister, who accompanied him 
 to the inn. They went about five 
 o'clock, and instead of leaving the 
 grand duke's at the same time, her 
 royal highness remained with the du- 
 chess, and the witness remained ther^ 
 too. They quitted at a late hour in the 
 evening, and he says that he himself 
 sang with the duchess that evening. 
 He goes through the whole story of 
 their dining and suppijpg, a circum- 
 stance which is likely to be strongly 
 impressed on his memory, because he 
 r,' collects dining with the grand duke, 
 which we know is proved by satisfac- 
 tory evidence, and which is too re- 
 markable to be entirely excluded from 
 his memory. Then if your lordships 
 look at page .944, you will perceive he 
 is asked to fix the time, " What time 
 did they dine ? About Uiree o'clock. 
 
 " What time did the conversazzionei 
 commence ? At no fixed time. 
 j '^ About what time ? From half-past 
 I seven to eight o'clock. , 
 
 i ** Where was it you dined at CarlsK 
 { rhue the, first day? At the mai^ra- 
 j vine's, 
 
 ** Was Bergami there? Yrs. 
 I ** Are you quite sure he dined there 
 the first day ? Yes. 
 
 ^.' Where did her royal highness dine 
 the second day ? At the grand duke's.'* 
 This is his cross-examination. ' 
 " Will you swear that he dined there 
 that day ? Yes, 
 
 " Did Bergami dine with her royal 
 highness every day at Carlsrhue ? He 
 diJ. 
 
 " ^hat day after your arrival at 
 Carlsrhue was it that Bergami was 
 taken ill? The second day. 
 
370 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 '^ At what time wds he taken ill ? 
 At dinner time, about half-past four 
 or five o'clock." 
 
 Which would be the time the dinner 
 was taken from the table according 
 to the hour which lieut. Howuam gives 
 you of it. 
 
 " You say he returned to the inn, 
 did he rejoin your party that evening ? 
 He did, when we went home. 
 
 ** About what time did you return 
 home ? I believe about half-past seven 
 or eight o'clock." 
 
 Now, my lords, as that was stated, it 
 ^ould have appeared to be a confirma- 
 tion ; and T think it was from one of 
 your lordships, who put a question to 
 him, that we ^ot full explanation of 
 the account given by him, which proves 
 that what Barbara Kress stated could 
 not be true, not because the princess 
 ind Bergami might not be together the 
 first evening, or the second evening, 
 but that he accounts for the whole of 
 the time that he dined at the grand 
 duke's, coming home, and there being 
 received by a party, and afterwards 
 going out to the margravine's, ^d the 
 whole of the time he accounts for in 
 such a manner as to leave no possibility 
 4jf doubt of the story of the bed-room, 
 and the placing of Bergami's arm rouud 
 her royal highness's neck, being untrue. 
 Then in page 961 the following ques- 
 tions are put to him : — 
 
 '* When the princess, on the second 
 night she was at Carlsrhue, returned 
 from the palace to the inn, did you ac- 
 company her ? I did not. 
 
 *• When did you go there ? When 
 she returned home— between seven and 
 eight o'clock, 
 
 "It is about that time that I am 
 no vy asking J did you accompany her ? 
 
 now 
 
 '^"^fi^o What' room oi the mn did you 
 accompany the priueess ? Into the sa- 
 loon. '^ 
 
 « Wh'<!>m did you find there ? Ber- 
 gami and his sister, and another person 
 in the street came to meet us. 
 
 •' Was Bergami dressed atthattinae ? 
 He was in a uniform. 
 
 *^ How was her royal highness 
 dressed ? Only in a court dress. 
 
 ** Did her royal highness remsin for 
 any time in that roon^ called the sa- 
 loon ? Some time, and then went to 
 the margravine's, and they remained 
 ^with the evenmg party till ten o'clock 
 " reniug." 
 
 So that there is every thing during 
 the whole of her royal highness's resi- 
 dence at Carlsrhue accounted for ; and 
 it is impossible that this story of Bar- 
 bara Kress can be true, unless he has 
 stated what is false, which I do not 
 think any one can imagine he has done ; 
 and I think there can be no possibility 
 of mistake on such a subject. My 
 learned frit nd ingeniously asked where 
 they dined at Munich? Why, the an- 
 swer was, we dined at the table of the 
 king and queen tjaree or four times in 
 the course of the time, and having 
 dined occasionally at the table of the 
 queen alternately, in general passing 
 one day at the grand duke's, another 
 at the margravine's, ^^ here she passed 
 the night. I think it is proved that on 
 the other four nights there was no pos- 
 sibility of the story being true ; and, I 
 think, when such a proof h^s been 
 given, it throws a good deal of suspi- 
 cion on every other part of the case. 
 But, my lords, if this German female 
 waiter is to be considered as effectually 
 contradicted in her evidence, what shall 
 we say to the male waiter, who probably 
 was aware of the same circumstances 
 of prosecution and vigilance, placed his 
 eye to the key-hole of the door at 
 Trieste — a most happy employment for 
 a person of his honourable profession — 
 and then pretends to tell your lord- 
 ships, that for three or four mornings he 
 s tw Berganii going in a state of un- 
 dress from her royal highness's room to 
 his own. What shall we think of that 
 individual becoming a witness, adven- 
 turing in that gainful trade, and well 
 knowing all the advantages which 
 would be found to result from a jour- 
 ney to England oa this important occia- 
 sion. li^ things proper to state that 
 tkey remained six days at the inn, a 
 circumstance out of which, it was fel^ 
 too singular a meaning might be made 
 of it, to make it whqlly unimportant, 
 and therefore, in order to make his 
 case complete, he does not leave this 
 young lady to speak to particulars, but 
 says, that it was the habit and practice 
 on every one of these three or fou* 
 mornings, and says that he saw this 
 ta' e place. 
 
 My lords, I shall not attempt to de- 
 scribe this man ; if he was a man, 
 whom your lordships may have forgot- 
 ti n, i am quite sure my learned friend's 
 portrait of him cannot b- forgotten. 
 Having argued on the likelihood of 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 371 
 
 this evidence beins: false — and the pro- 
 bability i3 entitled to very great consi- 
 deration, particularly so when it is 
 found, that out of the very numerous 
 places at which her royal highness iS 
 supposed to have conducted herself so 
 unguardedly, there are only two wit- 
 nesses called who speak to any fact of 
 this description ; and each of these 
 two witnesses make out a clear and 
 decided contradiction to themselves. 
 The evidence of Pief ro Cuchi your lird- 
 ships will hnd in page 167, and those 
 which fo low. Let me direct your at- 
 tention to this man's evidence. There 
 was no question put to Sacchi how long 
 be remained at Trieste — no question 
 put to IJe Mont, how long she re- 
 mained at Trieste — not a word; but 
 this man is brought against us to state 
 this fact, that she continued six entire 
 days. Cuohi swears positively that he 
 cowld not by any possibility mistake as 
 to the length ot time being six days, 
 though he could not recollect whether 
 a Sunday was one of them. He is 
 asked,-^ 
 
 ** How many times did you see that 
 during the six days her royal highness 
 remained at Trieste? Three or four 
 times. 
 
 " Describe the manner in which 
 Bergami was dressed when coming out 
 of the room of her royal highness ? He 
 had a dress made in the Polish fashion, 
 with some gc#'d lace on it, which carne 
 from the waist down behind. 
 
 " What else besides that? He had 
 drawers. 
 
 *• Had he any stockings on ? Some- 
 times he had stockings, and sometimes 
 pantaloons, which were at once stock- 
 ings and pantaloons ; but I cannot pre- 
 cisely say, for 1 was looking out through 
 the key-hole of my room." 
 
 And then, on cross-examination, 
 nearly the first question asked is — 
 
 *' Have yoii any doubt of the prin- 
 cess's having remained so long as five 
 or six days ? Of that 1 am quite sure. 
 
 " Are you sure of it ? No more. 
 
 " But are you sure that she re- 
 mained so long as five or six days ? 
 Yes. 
 
 " Do you remember the day^ of the 
 week— the day on which she came? I 
 don't remember. 
 
 ** Do you remember the day on 
 which she went away? Never, if any 
 body had told me something to that 
 point, I might have ascertained it : but 
 1 dou't remember. ". >> • * '■ 
 
 He saya, " the door of which I have 
 spoken was a door that opened in the 
 dining-room, a secret door, that could 
 not be knowu to be a door by any 
 body in the dining-room ; it was co- 
 vered with painted canvass. The best 
 possible situation for a spy to select. 
 There he says he saw this person 
 coming from the room of the princess 
 three or four mornings out of six ; 
 when it is proved beyond all possibi- 
 lity of doubt, that she slept but one 
 night at that place, and that on the 
 following day she set out on her journey 
 towards Venice, by the evidence given 
 by lieutenant Howuam on that subject. 
 But looking at it in the eye of a 
 lawyer, 1 will not press his evidence 
 further ; it will hereafter come on in 
 another place; for we feel that we 
 should not be performing our duty if 
 we abstained from bringing this mail 
 to justice. If he is to be found in 
 Cotton Garden at the time we call on 
 him — if he should not have followed 
 the example of Rastelli, and have gone 
 off to quiet his anxious friends and 
 relatives on the continent — if he is re- 
 maining in this country, it is a duty, 
 which we owe to her majesty and t» 
 the whole human race, to bring that 
 man to justice, and to let him feel, 
 that they who undertake to give 
 suborned evidence for the gratification 
 of the basest wishes, and, by wilful 
 and corrupt perjury, impeach the cha- 
 racter of the realm— that the highest 
 individual in the world should not do 
 so in England without being brought 
 to justice for his conduct. But lieute- 
 nant Howuam*s evidence puts an end 
 beyond all question to the testimony 
 of this waiter ; and it is most im- 
 portant tG remember, that he was not 
 cross-examined by ray friends as to his 
 memory or means of knowledge. 
 He aays, " on her royal highness's 
 arrival at Trieste, the deputy-governor 
 receiVed her royal highness ; she went 
 to the opera. We left Trieste on the 
 following day, about 5 or 6 o'clock in 
 the evening, and you will remember 
 the caution with which he speaks. 
 Then he is asked, 
 
 " Have you any particular reason 
 which assists your recollection ? 1 have 
 a letter that I wrote at the time from 
 Venice, on our arrival at that place, 
 which is dated the J8th of April in the 
 morning, and I have in my pocket a 
 letter written to a lady to whom I have 
 since been married." 
 
372 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEE!?. 
 
 It is signed from Venice, put in the 
 post-office there, and bas the Venice 
 post-mark on it. Yuu will recollect 
 that he wrote it on the I7th : it is 
 dated the 18th ; they arrived atTrieste 
 on the 15th, they left un the 16th, and 
 be writes from Venice on ihe iTih, her 
 royal highness having left it in the 
 afternoon. Upon this there is not a 
 single question put to him ; they do 
 not ask him to look at his letter ; they 
 do not make the smallest doubt of 
 bis statement ; they feel — they know- 
 that it .is true ; and the same state- 
 ment is made by captain Vassali in 
 page 938 of the evidence. 1 do not 
 mean, my lords, to dwell ijpon %ome 
 of the low and disgusting details which 
 have been stated in tl^is part of the 
 evidence, for if this wera only a case 
 of key holes and chaniber utenr>ils, I 
 think your lordships wuuld hardly be 
 sitting here to investigate it; yet I 
 cannot but inquire why De Mont was 
 not examined upon this evidence? 
 Why has De Mont never raid any 
 thing about it if the story was true ? 
 The reason is plain, because in that 
 €2L6e she must have known that she 
 could be easily contradicted. She 
 has not thought fit to state one word 
 respecting that simple fact. Surely, 
 If Bergami had at one place con- 
 stantly slept out of his bed for the 
 purpose of resorting to that of her 
 foyal highness, or her royal highness 
 bad once slept out cf her bed, for the 
 purpose of going to the embraces of 
 Bergami, it is perfectly clear that it 
 must have been known ta those who 
 Attended to their rooms, and of course 
 to this chambermaid, by the appear- 
 ance of the beds the next morning. 
 ' It is perfectly clear, that during the 
 whole period in which this adulterous 
 connexion is supposed to have existed, 
 in no one room is any thing of that 
 «ort discovered, therefore I make 
 upon that the same observation which 
 I did as to the f^ppearauce of stains in 
 (he linen. In the absence of such evi- 
 <lence if bich;^ if the case on the part 
 of the prosecutors of the bill were 
 true^ it would have been most easy to 
 bave produced, but it being a part of 
 Ihe subject which wai* capable ef con- 
 tradictioni such evidence has not been 
 thought proper to be given. It is a 
 ipost decisive proof that no auch thing 
 occurred : it follows, I say, as the 
 most reasonable deduction that can 
 Im iaa4» \p. the absence of such evi- 
 
 dence that the adulterous iutcrcourid 
 stated, has not taken place. It is eri. 
 dent that the object in carryhig on this 
 prosecution is to affix a stigma on her 
 majesty, and to attribute to her con- 
 duct an indelicacy which would be 
 disgraceful to her rank. Now, my 
 lords, I go to another part of thr case. 
 In the opening of my learned friend, 
 the Attorney-General, he attributed to 
 her royal highness a sjstem of inde- 
 licacy and impropriety of mauuers, 
 a disposition to encourage vice and 
 profligacy, which, if true, would have 
 been most disgraceful to her royal 
 highneis's morals, and such as it was 
 quite impossible you could conceive 
 that any person of rank would have 
 been guilty cf without it was esta- 
 blished by the clearest and roost con- 
 clusive evidence. My learned friend, 
 the Attorney-General, loW you that, 
 during the carnival, the most dis- 
 graceful scenes took place at the Ba- 
 rona— -scenes which he would rather 
 leave to the witnesses to describe than 
 offend your lordships' ears by repeat- 
 ing himself; aau that he w uld sa- 
 tisfy your lordships that this house at 
 the Barona rather deserved the name 
 of a brothel than a palace fit for her 
 royal highness : that balls were given 
 there, which wore not attended by 
 persons of rank and nobility in the 
 neighbourhood, not by persons who, 
 if her majesty had kept up her dignity, 
 would have been proud of the honour, 
 but that they were attended by none 
 
 I but persons of the lowest description ; 
 
 i and I remember that the Solicitor-Ge- 
 neral, in his summing up, stated that 
 scenes took place there which, if true, 
 proved that her royal highness was 
 low in morals, low in her character, 
 degraded in heHpriuciples and feelings, 
 and so on. The greatest licentious- 
 ness was exhibited there during the 
 carnival, but which licentiousness 
 ought not to be stated as an itnpu- 
 talion on her majesty, " unless,'* said 
 the Attorney-General, ** I were sa- 
 ti<;fied iu my conscience that I shall be 
 able to prove it was with her ma- 
 jesty's knowledge." Now, in the first 
 place, neither is it proved that those 
 scenes occurred with the knowledge 
 of her royal highness, — nor is it proved 
 that they occurred at all. Now, my 
 lords, your lordships cannot forget the 
 endeavour that was made to convert 
 the exhibition of the tricks of Ma- 
 homet^ a person describe^ as u&dt« 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEK. 
 
 B7B 
 
 •erviD^ the name of a man, into a 
 most serious cliarge against her royal 
 highness, Mahomet was pointed out 
 as a kind of master of the revels, at 
 these indecent balls, and it was stated 
 that exhibitions took place at them 
 which vr(»uld shock the delicacy of a 
 person of the grossest morals. But, 
 on the cotiirary, it does not appear 
 that he was ever there at all, and from 
 all that is stated in the evidence on 
 the part of the prosecution, there is 
 nothing — no one act of indecency 
 proved to have been committed in the 
 fcall-room, and nothing stated as 
 hftving passed under the observation 
 of her royal highness. My lords, it is 
 stated that when first those balls 
 began, persons of distinction did at- 
 tend them, but that afterwards, by 
 seeing those disgraceful scenes of de- 
 bauchery, they would not attend them 
 any longer. Now let me look at that 
 for one moment ; if that been the fact, 
 why was none of those individuals 
 called who were supposed to have at- 
 tended when those balls first took 
 place, when there was nothing shock- 
 lug or disgusting, but who afterwards 
 withdrew themselves from scenes of 
 so much immorality as my learned 
 friends described. Now is it not a 
 little too much for any counsel to 
 state what are the motives of particular 
 individuals for withdrawing them- 
 selves from her royal highness, and 
 fotmdiug it on improper and indecent 
 exhibitions made in her presence, 
 without giving any evidence of a single 
 act of that description ; without calling 
 any one of the persons who are sup- 
 ^ ^ posed to have felt themselves degraded 
 h.* by attending these balls ; and without 
 \ proving that any individual ever with- 
 L drew from these balls. These censors 
 of morals — these delicate critics on 
 propriety, are not to be found among 
 the witnesses for the prosecution. 
 The only witness as to this fact was 
 Majocchi, in the first place, and then 
 Sacchi. Was it known that their de- 
 positions would be contradicted ? Are 
 ^ they not contradicted ? An examina- 
 y tion exparte was taken at Milan, and 
 yet some of tho?e very witnesses have 
 told you, in the most distinct terms, 
 when speaking of these halls, that in 
 the presence of her royal highness 
 nothing particular was observed. 
 I They all agreed that if any thing irrc- 
 I ' fular happened, it did not fall under 
 hxx royal hifhaess's obaervation. It 
 
 was said by one of these virtuous wit- 
 nesses, that her royal highness wit- 
 nessed these improprieties, and so far 
 from expressing any disapprobation, 
 she was pleased at it. Now M. De 
 Mont, in page 200 and 303, expressly 
 negatives that particular fact. In the 
 first place my learned friend introduced 
 that by asking— 
 
 " How long did you continue at th« 
 Barona ? The first lime two or thre« 
 days. 
 
 ** Did you ever afterwards return ? 
 Yes. 
 
 *' How long did you continue then 
 at the Barona ? Near two mouths. 
 
 " Was Bergami and her royal 
 highness there the whole of that time ? 
 No. 
 
 ** Where did they go to ? To Ger- 
 many. 
 
 *' How long were they at the Ba- 
 rona before they went to Germany ? 
 Nearly one month." 
 
 And now there comes a very im- 
 portant question, put by my learned 
 friend to this witness, about that 
 month, and certainly if it had been 
 asked of a respectable witness, it would 
 have been applicable to the case. 
 *' Did you make any observations on 
 the conduct of Bergami and her royal 
 highness, how they conducted them* 
 selves towards each other during this 
 time." Your lordships will not forget 
 that this question is got out of her 
 own instructions. The answer is, ** I 
 made no particular observation." 
 *' How did they address each other.'* 
 To be sure such a question was a 
 pretty good bolus for any witness, and 
 very little doubt could be entertained 
 that it arose out of information re- 
 ceived from Milan. Well, what is the 
 answer ? •* The princess sometimes 
 said, * Bergami,' and sometimes, 
 ' thou,' to Bergami, and Bergami said, 
 * princess' to her." Then she is asked, 
 ** While you were at the Barona did 
 Bergami do any thing to her royal 
 highness." Now really that is a pretty 
 leading question, and it shows what 
 the intention was in choosing to 
 question her about the peculiarity of 
 conduct J and I may venture to say, 
 it never would have been put in this 
 court if it had not been stated in my 
 friends briefs, and therefore yon ^ee 
 there is a difference between what 
 occurred out of court, and what the 
 witness would swear in court-— a dif- 
 ference between what she would state 
 
374 
 
 DEFENCE OP TRE QUEEIT. 
 
 vpoD an ex-parte examination atMilan, 
 and an open tribunal in England. 
 I am ({uite sure that the facta stated 
 of a disgusting ami disgraceful nature, 
 as my friend eapreesed it >*hea he 
 opened this case, were stated from a 
 belief in bis conscience that he could 
 prove them by evidence. What is the 
 answer to this question ? *' I do not 
 recollect." But she recollects the 
 balls at the Barona, and that they 
 were attended by persons of a low 
 callinsr. 
 
 ** Did you yourself make any ob- 
 servation on the conduct of persons at 
 the ball ? Yes. 
 
 ** Will you tell us what you saw 
 also in the presence of her royal high- 
 ness ? I saw nothing particular. 
 
 "Did you ever hear Beri:ami tell 
 her royal highness anything as to ^he 
 conduct of one of the parties who 
 attended at these balls ? Yes, once. 
 
 '* What was it ? Mr. Bergami re- 
 lated a history— a story of what hap- 
 pened in the house." 
 
 Now, that Bergami ever related this 
 story I will not believe : it is proved 
 by this yoting lady alone. I say my 
 learned friend has failed in making 
 out any one smg'e fact which was 
 in the slightest degree disgraceful to 
 her royal highness. If your lordships 
 refer to page 433 Sacchi speaks fo 
 these same balls, and you will find 
 that the criminatory part of this state- 
 ment is not borne out by the testi- 
 mony of Sacchi. When Sacchi is 
 asked, what description of person at- 
 tended these balls, be says, '* At the 
 beginning, besides the suite of her 
 royal highness, there came also some 
 persons of distinction ; but at these 
 balls were introduced people of all 
 ranks, and of both sexes, and even of 
 very low condition ; and as between 
 some of the suite of her royal highness 
 and these low women there was some 
 freedom, thus the people of distinction 
 were no longer seen." Now, that there 
 might be on some of those occasions 
 persons o f net a very high description, 
 I admit, but not in the ball room. I can 
 readily believe that Sacchi, "and others 
 of his acquaintance, have indulged in 
 freedoms of the kind alluded to, aud 
 so far I will give him credit for his 
 testimony. Well, then, what is the de- 
 scription he gives— 
 
 *' Have you seen the princess at those 
 balls, in the same room with those 
 "^"^Mius of low coDditiou ? Several tipaes. 
 
 '* Did her royal bijjhness join in theic 
 dances ? Sometimes." 
 
 ** I2ave you, on any of those oc- 
 casions, heard her royal highness make 
 any other remarks on these woraeo ?" 
 
 And then he gives us an anecdote 
 about the j opulation of the Barona in- 
 creasing in consequence of \hf freedoms 
 used by them. Now it is quite impos- 
 sible that any contradiction can be ap- 
 plied to thai case ; it is an anecdote of 
 his own devising, the pure oflf-pring of 
 his fruitful brain, and which admits of 
 no contradiction on our part, though it 
 might have admitted of some if he had 
 told the name of the individual, and if 
 there was really any fact of that de» 
 scription- Then, my lords, at page 465, 
 this subject is pursued a little further 
 by your lordships, and it there appears 
 there are these questions and answers: 
 
 " You are understood to have slated, 
 that the princess was present during 
 the balls mentioned by you as given by 
 her royal highness at the Barona ; how 
 long was she present at jho?e balls ?'* 
 And the reply is, *' her royal highness 
 had her own apartment contiguous to 
 the ball room, where she had her own 
 party, so that she came from it and 
 entered the ball room, where she usu- 
 ally staid three or four minutes, and 
 then returned to her own room." 
 
 This is the evidence of the licen- 
 tiousness and disgraceful scenes com- 
 mitted under the immediate inspection 
 of the wife of the king of England, at 
 the ball room of the Barona. The 
 answer of this man to the next question 
 isjemarkable : he is asked this question, 
 ** Y'oH have stated that the women 
 were taken out of the ball room at the 
 will and pleasure of the men ; do you 
 remember on any one occasion when 
 the women were so taken out of the 
 ball-room in her ^-oyal highness's pre- 
 sence ?" The answer is, " I never 
 made the observation." Now. I think 
 your lordships will pause a little her* 
 before you believe that is a proof of any 
 great impropriety on the part of her 
 royal highness in giving any encour;ige« 
 ment to persons of that description* 
 There is not the slightest proof of her 
 being privy to any licentiousness or 
 indecorum, exclusive, always, of that 
 long story told by the witness, of his 
 having slept with three girls at a time 
 who attended at these balls. It is all 
 fabrication and invention, and it is 
 quite impossible to he true, and rests on 
 the same foundation as all thos^ othei 
 
DfiPENCE OF THE QUEEJT. 
 
 375 
 
 stories which have also been told 
 against her ro^al liii^hness.. We call 
 witnesses >*lio prove the most strong 
 and decisive contradiction, when 1 shew 
 what actually past, that there was no- 
 thing done on the part of her royal 
 highness, but what many noble ladies 
 in Engl.ind frequently do. In making 
 society of a lower description happy, 
 introducing persons of all descriptions 
 by giving to farmers, or to their ten- 
 ants, labourers, and servants, those 
 littlo festivities, persons in the lowest 
 rank coming in their best clothes, was 
 it ever supposed that it would be made 
 a ground or charge of licentious con- 
 duct, or destroy the reputation of an 
 innocent and honourable woman. My 
 lords, let me observe here, that in 
 England the practice is not uncommon, 
 and ladies of the highest rank, so far 
 from tliinkir.g it degradingtobe joining 
 jn those occasions of harmless and in- 
 nocent mirth, have thought they have 
 done themselves honor. If it should 
 happen that two of these persons were 
 going home at night together, and had 
 toyed a little oo their way back, or had 
 indulged in a little dalliance, would it 
 be said that the giver of the entertain- 
 ment was to be considered guilty of a 
 fault or crime, yet that is all this evi- 
 dence goes to— tliis is the fullest extent 
 of the ofTeuce; it goes no farther than 
 that. He has told you that her majesty, 
 upon those occasions, having a party in 
 her own room she carae out for three or 
 four minutes, and danced wiih the pea- 
 santry and tenantry. We have heard 
 a great deal of a landlady-i-I think of 
 the name of Rosina; and J expected to 
 hear that this Rosina's house was a 
 house of ill fame; that it was fre- 
 quented by the same kind of society ; 
 and that men and women were in the 
 haijit of retiring together from the 
 public room. By reference however 
 to page 142 of your lordsliip's printer's 
 miautes in the evidence of lieutenant 
 Ilownam. and also in page 934, where 
 count Vassali confirms the evidence 
 given by lieutenant Ilownam, it will be 
 seen that no such scenes ever took 
 place. In the evidence of PomI, it 
 will be found that the parties of her 
 royal highness never consisted of above 
 forty or tifty, that among those who at- 
 tended those balls was Antogena, a re- 
 spectable man, one of the largest ten- 
 ants in the parish ; her majesty wi.>hed 
 to see Xhe: whole of those assembled ; 
 nobody came but thoae who were at- 
 
 tended by their natura.l protectors or 
 guardians ; that the princess was in her 
 own room, and that he never saw any 
 thing improper on those occasions. 1 
 think, my lords, loo much hits already 
 been stated in refutation of what was 
 alleged against her royal highness with 
 regard to these balls. But now this 
 charge turns out to be trifling, to be 
 folly, as it is disproved. It is im- 
 portant to see how the minu test facta 
 fiave been raked together, and how the 
 most innocent circumstances have been 
 perverted into charges. Tlliis illus- 
 trious lady, as De Mont says, was sur- 
 rounded with spies; that it washermis- 
 fortune to be the object of persecution, 
 when she ought to have been made the 
 object of respect; she hsis been sur-. 
 rounded during the wiiole of her re- 
 sidence abroad by spies — no lady more 
 virtuous, no Udy more injiued. There 
 is not an individual who hiis so much 
 to complain of cts my mistress; All is 
 mit-interpreted. There is novt a virtue 
 which is not brought in array against 
 her; her kindness — her affability — her 
 love of children — which is aln^ost in- 
 separable from an amiable character, 
 lihs is converted into matter ol' new 
 suspicion. To protect and make happy 
 her neighbours, as some ladies do in 
 this Country, all this is perverted into 
 imputations, or made the matter of 
 serious cha'ge agaioot her; and when 
 we Come to look to the proof 
 of this, what credit is transferred from 
 the green bag to my friend— to the 
 Milan commission by ex parte proof, 
 aud then here by word of mouth from 
 the witnesses who are called here. 
 There is not. a single fact where a con- 
 tradiction could be given to the evi- 
 dence, where that evidence has not 
 bceu cut to pieces by that contradiction 
 as well as exposed by its own impro- 
 bability. Then as to the dauce of 
 Mahomet, according to Majocchi's ac- 
 count, ii was as innocent a dance as 
 ever was performed before any body ; 
 it was absurd, but uot profligate: it 
 was that which might be witnessed 
 without otfence to any man or any 
 woman. The truth of this account is 
 fully borne out by the evidence of 
 lieutenant Howuam, and by Mr. Gran- 
 ville Sharpe, who has seen a dauce of 
 the same description at Calcutta, per- 
 formed in the presence of persons of 
 higii rank, and of morals the most ir- 
 reproachfible. My lords, my learned 
 friend the Solicitor-General, on tbr 
 
76 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEJ^. 
 
 snmmioj^ up of the evidence, dwelt 
 ■with great eflfect with regard to an(»- 
 ther exhibition of Mahomet's on board 
 the polacca, but Mr. Howuam has told 
 us how that occurred : he says that this 
 Mahomet had a quarrel with the doc- 
 tor, and that he always performed this 
 dance whenever the doctor came on 
 deck : it was a mere mode of playing 
 oflF a joke upon the doctor, who was 
 not upon very good terms with him. 
 My lords, I will now beg to call your 
 attention again to the evidence of 
 Sacchi, and to the complete contradic- 
 tion with which Sacohi's statement has 
 beea qiet. Jt was asserted by Sacchi 
 that upon one occasion the weather 
 being very hot the windows of her 
 royal highness's place of residence 
 were thrown open, that he himself had 
 risen from his bed to air himself, and 
 that Bergami thought this a very good 
 opportunity of clandestinely stealing to 
 the bed of her royal highness. My 
 lords, I will observe no more upon that 
 part of the case, I am extremely sorry 
 to detain your lordships^ with any ob- 
 servations of mine ; but I cannot but 
 remark, if credit could attach itself to 
 such a story, told by such persons, that 
 then, whenever a servant was discarded, 
 and chose to come forward to state 
 such a fact, if the story could be be- 
 believed, it would place the character 
 of every man and woman in all civilized 
 society entirely at the mercy of any 
 menial servant who should be dis- 
 pleased by being turned away. It is 
 quite impossible that ther'? can be any 
 security for the most correct and vir- 
 tuous of mankind. If this case was 
 strong in itself ; if the testimony came 
 from iips never polluted by any thin^ 
 obscene, and was derived from source 
 the most pure, such evidence ought to 
 be listened to with the utmost jealousy 
 and suspicion. Even if it came from 
 one whose testimony was above all 
 contradiction and suspicion— if it came 
 from one who could have no motive for 
 injuring the party against whom he 
 spoke — from one who had never, on 
 any occasion, expressed himself in 
 terms of indignaiion or displeasure 
 against the paity who was charged 
 with a crime— even though the channel 
 should not be infected by treachery and 
 ing^ratitiide — even though given without 
 any motive to accuse or traduce an inno- 
 cent person, yet the story told here is 
 eaou|fh to raise the feeling of incredu- 
 lity in ©verjr unprejudiced mind, But 
 
 here the fabrication had been entirely 
 controverted: the slanders of discaided 
 servants has been repelled. My lords, 1 
 ask what are we to think of a case which 
 is founded on the infamous scanclals of 
 these discarded servants, who conspire 
 to fabricate such a story among them- 
 selves? What are we to think of a case 
 which mainly re^ts on the evidence of 
 this Sacchi, if it may be culled evidence 
 at all. My lords. I pass over, therefore, 
 the walking in the uighi at the door and 
 iu the room 5 it cannot be contradicted, 
 only because it is staled to have taken 
 place when no other persons saw it. I 
 vyill call your attention to anothor mate- 
 rial part of Sacchi's evidence, in which 
 he is directly contradicted; it is in page 
 438. It is not my intention to go over 
 all the monstrous obscenities which are 
 there detailed, and with which your 
 lordships' ears have been offended ; but 
 is it not remarkable that De Mont, who 
 was on the journey to Senigagiia, has 
 not been called to support and confirm 
 the account of Sac^i? Is not this at 
 least a very surprismg omission? It is 
 sworn by Sacchi that, during that jour- 
 ney, he went every morning near hep 
 royal highness's carriage at day-break 
 to ask her if she wanted any thing; and 
 he says that Bergami travelled in that 
 caniage. It was then put to him whe- 
 ther, on any occasion, he had observed 
 tlie situation of her royal highness and 
 Bergami. He says he fonnd then* 
 both asleep, and their respective hands 
 on tlie person of each other. Now, though 
 I believe that to be utterly impossible, 
 yet I shall not rest upon that, but call to 
 yoin- lordships* recollection how, when 
 he was pressed in cross-examination on. 
 this point, whether there was any other 
 person in the carriage besides the prin- 
 cess and Bergami, he takes refuge in 
 that pretended defect of memory — that 
 happy defect of memory, which may 
 possibly save Majocchi from the legal 
 punishment which he so richly deserved. 
 My lords, is it possible that a man should 
 thus be ignorant whether any other per- 
 son was in the carriage ? But your lord- 
 ships, 1 am sure, can ^ever forget how 
 direct thii man, in this particular, has 
 been contradicted by the adverse testi- 
 mony of unimpeached and unimpeach- 
 able witnesses. You cannot fail to re- 
 member the unfeeling coldness with 
 which Sacchi related his obscene aad 
 filthy tale. In page 634, the contradic- 
 tion h most positive and direct. *Ti there 
 
m: FENCE OF The queen. 
 
 377 
 
 tppcars, t!ir\t instenJ of SaccliI perTonn- 
 infr (he oHlco of courier on that journey, 
 be travelled in the caratella, and Carlo 
 Forti WHS the man who attended on horse- 
 back with her majesty's carria;»-e. So far 
 from his h.aviugf the opportunity of ap- 
 ]>roachiug' tl»c window of her majesty's 
 carriao-e, he was not the courier wh<" 
 attended on that journey ; he did not 
 ride ou horseback, for having b^ien much 
 chafed on a former jonriiey, be was al- 
 lowed to "[-o forward in one of her royal 
 liighness's carriag'es the evening before, 
 in order to provide horses. Then, in 
 pag-e 604, he is cross-examined with the 
 utmost strictness on that point, but so 
 far froHi giviiinf tlie jjli^htest contradic- 
 tion to liis former testimony, that when 
 new circumstances were brouoht to liis 
 recollection, he stated some additional 
 facts, which tended to show that be 
 could not be mistaken about it. My lords, 
 there is a new cross-examination on the 
 subject, and nothing at all transpires to 
 shake his testimony as to that particular; 
 and then, my lords, 1 have this further 
 confirmation on the subject, that De 
 Mont, althoug^h on that journey, and 
 who was intimately acqiuunted with 
 Saccbi, and conversant of every fact that 
 occurred, yet she is not examined to 
 support the account that was given by 
 Sacchi. She was not asked, whether he 
 did or did not ride on horseback on that 
 journey, and surely his was evidence 
 thit required all possible confirmation to 
 support it. Let us look to the evidence 
 of lieutenant Hownani upon this sub- 
 ject, in page 726 of the printed evi- 
 dence, where he says, that her majesty, 
 instead of travelling in a carriage with 
 blinds which mi^h be drawn, travelled 
 in an English landaulct. He makes 
 mention of spring blinds, but he men- 
 tions a variety of other circumstances, 
 which shew that his memory is quite 
 adequate to the subject on which he 
 speai-s. There is no doubt that there 
 was but one journey performed by l^er 
 majesty from Rome to Senigaglia, and 
 therefore he must be speaking of this 
 ▼ery journey. He is asked, '* Have you 
 any recollection who performed the 
 office of courier on that journey r" He 
 says, " 1 think there were two courier! 
 employed by her majesty, Carlo Forti 
 and Sacchini, but which of the two 
 travelled with her majesty on that jour- 
 ney I don't recollect," — '* Do you at all 
 remember whether Sacchini was taken 
 ill ?"— .*» I do ; and now that you have 
 mentioned that circumstance, my mc- 
 48 
 
 tnnry, which was beforp imperfect 
 upon the subject of the courier, is re- 
 freshed, nnd I remember perfectly that 
 Carlo Forti was the courier who tra- 
 velled with her majesty." — So that, my 
 lords, by this witness's evidence, the fact 
 t'lat Carlo Forti, and not Sacchini, was 
 the courier on that occasion, remains 
 uncontradicted. In his cross-examina- 
 tion (page 722 to page 744) upon the 
 same subject, and where every circum- 
 stance is sifted to the bottom, he re-^ 
 mains unshaken in every part of his 
 previous statement, and bis evidence 
 l)ecomes still stronger when the trans- 
 actions of the journey are brought to 
 his recollection, and this, too, when 
 my learned friends are in full posses- 
 sion of the means of contradiction. He 
 is asked a variety of minute questions, 
 in order to try his recollection and the 
 accuracy of his statement. " What sort 
 of carriages carried her royal higlv- 
 ness's suite? Where did you sleep?— 
 How far did you go on that day ? — Did 
 you travel by day or by night? — Did 
 you not stop at some place called 
 Carlo? — How long did you remain 
 there? — When did you arrive at Seni- 
 gaglia?" — All these questions he an- 
 swers with readiness and promptitude, 
 and vvith a degree of accuracy which 
 shows that he has a perfect recollection 
 of all that passed on the journey. My 
 learned friend having called Mr. How- 
 nam's recollection to the circumstance 
 of having been at the place called Carlo, 
 he tried to get him into something like 
 a contradiction. He asks him whether 
 he does not recollect leaving Saccbioi 
 there, and he does not recollect his 
 being th^re. Why then he is asked 
 more distinctly as to the description o£ 
 carriage in whi?h the princess rode; 
 and be says *' she travi lied in an Eng- 
 lish landaulet, whicIT was the descrip- 
 tion of carriage she almost always tra- 
 ve^lled in," i^o that it is qui e clear she 
 had not travelled in a carriage in which 
 curttiins could have been drawn and 
 withdrawn. Ti at fact is certain and 
 incontrovertible. Jn page 7;">">, having 
 been further examined as to any precis* 
 recollection he had of which of the 
 couriers ncc^ompanied the (-arriage on 
 horseback, he says, *' 1 have a slight 
 recollection of one of them travelling 
 in a carriage, but I have no positive 
 recollection upon the Rid^ject." '* W<lk 
 then, that further circumstance bein|f 
 brought to your noiitv*, do you i>ovir 
 recollect whether Carlo l\>rii was the 
 
378 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 courier who rode tn the carriag^e ?" He 
 says, " I do not." So that from the 
 first to thelast of the journey, the cir- 
 cumstances stated in this gentleman's 
 evidence makes it extremely improbable 
 that Carlo Forti was the courier on 
 horseback a fact which places it be- 
 yond the possibility of doubt, that her 
 royal highness travelled in an English 
 carriajre, accomj)anied bf the countess 
 of Oldi and the highly favoured Ber- 
 gami. Who is the next witness upon, 
 this most important part of the case? 
 Colonel Ol viera, a person of very great 
 respectability ; and I am quite sure he 
 gave his evidence in such a manner, as 
 not to draw upon him the slightest im- 
 putation to his prejudice. Indeed, I 
 should be doing him injustice, if 1 did 
 not speak of him with the highest ap- 
 probation. It is true, he did not accom- 
 pany her royal hig'hness from Rome to 
 Scnigaglia ; but observe whai he says 
 in page pil of the evidence. *' I sup- 
 ped with her royal highness on the 
 evening of her setting out. She set 
 out about midnight. 1 had the honor 
 of handing her royal highness into her 
 carriage. It was hu English carriage. 
 Besides her royal highnesi, who uent 
 into the carriage, there w^re the coun. 
 tess of Oldi, Bergami, and the child 
 Victorine." Being asked who accom- 
 panied her nvajesty on her journey, he 
 states that count Vassali and Mr. How- 
 iiam were amongst the persons. He 
 saw them in their carriage, and he 
 bOAved to them ; and he said he had 
 not the least doubt as to the des«ription 
 of carriage in which her royal highness 
 travelled. He whs then asked who was 
 the c6urier who accompanied the car- 
 riage, and he says, he saw Carlo Forti 
 go out of the room to accompany her 
 royal highness. On his cross-examina- 
 tion (page 917) he says, that Mr. How^ 
 nam, Mr. Vassali, and Lewis Bergami, 
 travelled in a separate carriage. ** 1 
 think Schiavini did not set out that 
 night, but went on the following day 
 in k carriage ;" hut he distinctly swears, 
 that upon that occasion her majt sty set 
 out in the landau, and he did not 
 see Saccbi accompany the carriage as 
 courier. Now 1 find the whole of this 
 statement diatincUy confira)ed by the 
 riast of the testimony. But 1 nee \ not 
 draw your lordships* attention to the 
 j^ftrticulars in which it is so confirmed, 
 because the mode in which he swears, 
 stauips his statement with unquestion- 
 ^ie veracity. In his further examina- 
 
 tion (pajje 930) he says, that ''our cai^ 
 riages, accompanied her royal high-* 
 ness. " I cannot say how long it would 
 take to travel from Rome to Scni- 
 gaglia." In answer to another ques- 
 tion he says, ** I saw Carlo Forti on 
 horseback, setting out with the prin- 
 cess as courier ? — No, neither way ; 
 Carlo Forti was hired provisionally at 
 Loretto, and adv.mccd at Senigaglia iu 
 consequence o\ his faithful services on 
 the journey ihither." lie is then cross- 
 examined with a grs^at deal of particu- 
 larity, and 1 do not recollect any single 
 circumstance in which he deviates from 
 any of "his answers in chief; — so that 
 here is this -Mister Sacchi swearing to 
 an indecent and abominable, but im- 
 probable transaction, observed by him 
 to have taken place on the public high- 
 way, when he was riding by ihe side of 
 the queen's carriage, in order to do 
 which, he had drawn aside the curtains 
 which protected the carriage on the out- 
 side. Now, my lords, he is contradicted 
 in the whole of this abominahle and 
 atrocious storv. He is contradicted by 
 the courier who did accompany the car- 
 riage. Carlo Forti ; he is coatiadicted 
 by lolonel Oliviera, who swears tlia« 
 he saw Carlo Forti, and not Sacchi, 
 accompanying the carriage in capacity 
 of courier; and he is contradicted by 
 count Vassali and lieutenant Hownam. 
 All these four witnesses s};eak to the 
 entire destruction ol this man's evidc n^e, 
 and shew the utter impossibility of its 
 being true. Would this man's evidence 
 have admitted of confirmation? Most 
 assuredly it would in many particulars, 
 had it heen founded on the least par- 
 ticle of truth; but it has not received' 
 any conlJrmatiou, and the evidence we 
 have called to contradict him, has not 
 been encountered by a single fact which 
 could shake its truth. To meet such 
 an abominable story a^ this man has 
 told, in this part of his evidence, is it 
 possible to go farther than we have 
 done to shew that it is altogether false 5^ 
 and if it be so, what becomes* of hi^. 
 evidence as to the other indecent trans- 
 actions he has described? What be-^ 
 comes of the statement he has given 
 of what took place at the Barona, 
 where he himself confesses to have 
 taken indecent familiarities with certain 
 females? What becomes of the foul 
 imputations upon the queen, which, 
 rest entirely ujion^iiis evidence, relative 
 to the indecent and improper conduct 
 which took place at the balls— imputa- 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 379 
 
 tions which have been expressly contra- 
 dieted in detail by the most unquestion- 
 able testimony, shewing that there is 
 not a title of truth in the whole of the 
 statement. It is stated as a strong cir- 
 cumstance against the queen, that she 
 was black-balled in the Cassino Society 
 at Milan. Why, if that fact be so (which 
 1 doubt), it was not because there was 
 any just foundation for such a proceed- 
 ing:, but because she was known to be 
 the persecuted, calumniated, and exiled 
 wife of the prince Re«:ent — because she 
 was known to be condemned to wander 
 abroad over the face of tha earth, hav- 
 ing no home under which to shelter her 
 careworn head — because she had no 
 asylum lo resort to for protection, and 
 because tliose friends who had on a 
 former occasion carried her triumph- 
 antly through the roost unjust accusa- 
 tions, were now found in a situation, 
 which 1 will not trust myself to de- 
 scribe! Under these circumstances, it 
 is impossible that evidence can be found 
 to get over such facts. Jn the nature 
 of things It is impracticable. Is it ne- 
 cessary for me to go through the list 
 of other witnesses, similar to Saccbi, 
 who have been examined — the Gug- 
 giaris, the (ialdinis, the Oggionis, the 
 Kancattis, and the rest of Italians whose 
 names tire one m pronouncing ? Is it 
 necessary for me to go through any de- 
 tail of their respective perjuries? 
 Have 1 not given you a specimen whic^ 
 must at once dispose of them all ? 
 "When the testimony of this perjured 
 carrier is disposed of, upon evidence 
 ihe most conclusive, what conlidence 
 can your lordship have in the rest of 
 that horde from which he has been 
 selected ? \Vhat reliance can you place 
 upon the testimony of any one of them, 
 amidst tfie contradictory, inconsistent, 
 and. improbable stories with which they 
 have polluted your ears ? If it were ne- 
 cessary, I could point out innumerable 
 instances in which they have forsworn, 
 contradicted, and exposed the weakness 
 of the cause which ihey have been 
 V)rought to support. Merely as a sample 
 of their testimony, I wid just advert 
 to the story which has been told about 
 the figures of Adam and Eve. Can 
 any maii have a doubt now of the 
 falsehoods which have been told in 
 this part of the case? And yet that 
 was one of the most disgusting— the 
 most offensive parts alleged. I do 
 not state the particulars. It is 
 enough for me to stale, that Sautcao 
 
 Luigiani and Guiseppe Garolini had 
 proved that it was injpossible for the 
 man, Paoli Ragazzoni, who deposed 
 to tiie fact, to have seen who he de- 
 scribed. Could my learned friends 
 imagine that this circumstance would 
 pa s unnoticed, and uncontradicted ? 
 It is impossible. But there is one 
 circumstance connected with this part 
 of the case, which could not but have 
 struck, your lordships as surprising 
 and unaccountable. When Ragazzoni 
 spoke of the grotto-scene at the Villa 
 d'E^te, it was essential that he should 
 have produced plans to prove the ac- 
 curacy of his statement. He was an 
 architect, and it was his duty to have 
 taken plans, but this appears not to 
 have been done. On the other hand, 
 the witnesses have mentioned, who 
 were examined for her royal highness, 
 did take plans. Wiiy were not plans 
 taken by Ragazzoni? I'll tell your 
 lordships ; because if he had So done, 
 it would have been impossible for hioi 
 to prove the fact he has dared to 
 assert on his oath, and the plans 
 taken by our witnesses prove this to 
 demonstration, because they show that 
 he could not have been an eye-wit- 
 ness of what he has ventured to de- 
 scribe. My lords, this shows what , 
 men will do when great eucotirage- 
 ments are held out to them to commit 
 these perjuries, and it shows how 
 cautious other ))ersons ought to be 
 before they enter inio any engage- 
 ments with witnesses of this character. 
 To refer your lordships to another 
 [tarticular, in which the inconsistency, 
 and even perjury, of this witness is 
 manifest, I will mention that, in page 
 224, this Ragazzoni, speaking of some 
 house-warming, as one of the wit- 
 nesses called It, and when the gaidens 
 of the Villa D'Este were illuuHuated, 
 says, that he saw the prince^^s and 
 Bergami sittijig together on the same 
 bench, at the bottom of tlie park. 
 Now, supposing this fact to be true, 
 what imputation on the conduct of the 
 queen is there in ir ? Admitting the 
 fact itself to be satisfactonl* proved 
 by the evidence of Ragazzoni, what is 
 his account of it ? He says, that he 
 observed this circumstance at 2 o'clock 
 in the morning, and that Dominago 
 Brusa was with him. Tiun, according 
 to my learned friend's mi)de of count- 
 ing time in lial\, in>tead of being two 
 in the morning, would be about nine 
 at ni^^ht, the very hour at which the 
 Italian peasanfy would be abroad 
 
S80 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 enjoying the beauty of their happy 
 ami delightful cliniaie. Then how 
 does this circumstance of impuiation 
 upon us tiiin out? The thhi^ hap- 
 pened in broa<l light, and uhen the 
 transaction must be as open and as 
 public as mid-day; at a time when 
 these low persons (as my learned 
 friend calls them) must have met in 
 throngs in the garden. Another pal- 
 pable falsehood 1 cannot forbear 
 ^pointing out to your lordships, in the 
 evidence of Antonio Biaiichi, page 
 397, wbo describes the ba;hing scene 
 in the river Brezzia, and deposes to 
 seeing the princess and Bergami enter 
 a canoe. Unfortunately for the case 
 of my learned friends, this part of the 
 evidence completely fails them, for it 
 turns out, upon the testimony of nn- 
 jmpeachable witnesses, that this river 
 Brezzia is a constant cataract, and as 
 to navigating it, the thing is impos- 
 sible, according to the evidence of 
 Jieutenant Hownam (page 717J. I 
 really am astonished at the uncon- 
 troulable impudence of these persons 
 in attempting to impose such tales 
 upon the British public. Mr. Hownam 
 States, that to navigate the Brezzia is 
 quite impossible; that it eiiher runs 
 in a torrent* or is so dry that It would 
 be impossible to float a boai in it, and 
 certainly would afford no means of 
 bathing. If, then, the whole host of 
 Italian witnesses were to come for- 
 ward and depose to this fact which 
 Bianchi mentions, it is quite obvious 
 that they must be guilty of falsehood. 
 But hnd my learned friend the means 
 of confi. ming this witness ? Surely he 
 had, if his witness is to be believed ; 
 for this man says, that the princess 
 and Bergami came out of the water 
 as soon as they saw him with four 
 gentlemen who were in a boat. If, 
 then, there were four other persons in 
 this boat, the circumsr;ince is neces- 
 sarily open to this observation : why 
 were not these four gentlemen called? 
 Surely it was more desirable that 
 these four gentlemen showld be called 
 than this Bianchi. Another feature in 
 the evidence worthy of observation, 
 is in the statement of Giuseppe Gug- ' 
 giari to tiie boatmen, who took tlie \ 
 princess from the Villa D'Fste to the } 
 theatre at Como. This man states , 
 that he saw Bergami kiss the princess I 
 four times in the boat. Certainly this 
 is a trreater number of times than ; 
 tv&n Majocchi or any of the other wit- 
 
 nesses wrought up their consclencci 
 to swear. But this mau happens to 
 mention other supposed indelicacies 
 that occurred, and I w^ill undertake to 
 say, from the internal evidence of this 
 man's story, no such thing took place. 
 He states, in page 423, that he saw 
 the princess and Bergami come out of 
 the dining-room and go into some ' 
 other room, where they locked them- 
 selves up, but he could not see how 
 they conducted themselves. One of 
 your lordships (p. 426,) asked this 
 man, whether any other persons were 
 present, and saw what he described ? 
 and he answered that his brother 
 Rancatti and Giovanni Capella weie 
 present. Now it has happened, that 
 in some instances these witnesses 
 have described scenes at which they 
 were severally and alone eye wit- 
 nesses ; but in this instance it so hap- 
 pens that neither Rancatti nor Capella 
 are called to confirm this Guggiari in 
 so important a part of his story. 
 When witnesses came by shemselves 
 to state facts which they know of their 
 own knowledge, it may not be possible 
 to confirm them ; but where it is 
 possible to confirm them, the least 
 that your lordships have a right to ex- 
 pect is, that confirmatory witnesses 
 shall be called. In this particular, 
 Guggiari stands unconfirmed, for Ran- 
 catti is only placed to speak to other 
 circumstances, and Capella is not 
 called at all ; and it is to be observed, 
 tha throughout the whole testimony 
 of all these Italians, no two of them 
 speak of the same circumstances, 
 except as to such as are matter of 
 public notoriety, and which every 
 body must know. Why do 1 make 
 this observation, hut for the purpose 
 of calling your lordship's atteuti<m to 
 the manner in which this case has' 
 been got up — to point out the profli- 
 gate motives of these persons, and to 
 show that the respective parts they 
 have been acting are bottomed in the 
 most sordid and wicked inclinations. 
 I have not troubled your lordships 
 with any minute observations upou 
 the testimony of each of all these 
 numerous witnesses, because, if I 
 have successfully traced their conduct 
 to a bad motive, I do enough to do 
 away the effect of the whole evidence. 
 When their conduct comes to be con- 
 sidered as a question of motive — when 
 I have shown a motive operating 
 upon these persons' minds suthcieut to 
 
DEFENCE OF THK QUEEX. 
 
 381 
 
 induce lliera to impute criminality , 
 wkcre it does not exut— wIjoU 1 point i 
 out iumimerable iusiauces in which j 
 they have loriworu thei.iiselves in tiie i 
 moit iin|HWta'.it points, 1 think I need ! 
 not lat)i>ur to show that such persons j 
 are not entitled to credence. There is 
 one point in the testimony ofSacchi 
 \\ hich 1 had nearly tor;;otten to brinj 
 to your lordship's attention, and which 
 1 think material to sliow the positive 
 falsehood of this man. He tells your 
 lordship-i, that about twelve months 
 since he was induced to change his 
 name, and assume that of Villani, in 
 consequence of what then happened 
 to him-ell at Dover, where a tumult 
 had happened, threatening danger to 
 tiie Italian witnesses. Now it is clearly 
 in proof that no such tumult took 
 place, and that tliere whs no danger 
 to which he himself was exposed. 
 What reliance can your lord-)hips 
 place upon the testimony of this -im- 
 _portant witness — a witness whose evi- 
 dence is so much thought of by my 
 learned triends— when he stands con- 
 victed ««f so palpable a falsehood. 
 Need I go any farther to show the con- 
 tradictiotis ol this man, who, upon 
 his own showing, is not fit to be be- 
 lieved upon his oath. Then we come 
 to the most important witness of all — 
 important for his influence, and for 
 the part he has acted in this drama— 
 1 m^an his friend Guiseppe Rastelli, 
 whom 1 have proved to be one of the 
 most active aijents of iheiVfilan com- 
 mission. I hope not to be misunder- 
 stood in speaking of that commission. 
 We hare heard a great deal as to the 
 motives and the characters of the 
 commissioners. With regard to the 
 head commissioner, Mr, Cooke, I have 
 ijo interest in saying any thing to 
 his prejudice. I have never heard any 
 thing of his character that should in- 
 duce me to entertain any thing but 
 respect for it; but, notwithstanding 
 all 1 have heard, and with all my dis- 
 position to treat his character with 
 respect, and that disposition does feel 
 an involuntary check when I fmd that 
 he has stooped to accent the office of 
 commissioner which has been imposed 
 upon him. He is a profound lawyer — 
 a man of great scientific knowledge 
 and research — a man of jreat judg- 
 ment, and a legal adept ; but I confers 
 thnt, of all the distinguished names in 
 Westminster Hall, ( do not think there 
 is one that could be less qualified for 
 
 the important business (-f cross-exami- 
 nation, and sifting evidence with 
 effect, or a man whose talents and 
 whose experience coidd so little put 
 him in a condition to check the false- 
 hoods, brought before hiui by artful 
 witnesses, or lo check the base prac- 
 tices of tiiDse en)i)ioyed under him, to 
 induce witnesses to come within the 
 range of examination. In a situa- 
 tion where the most anxious and 
 jealoirs attention that man could be- 
 stow, was requisite to prepare evi- 
 dence in such a case, 1 think there 
 could hardly be foiuid a person so 
 little capable of giving useful infor- 
 mation on the subject. The result is, 
 that the only real and active commis- 
 siotier was Mr. Powell, whom we now 
 find to be the attorney in this prose- 
 cution ; and, I befieve, the only and 
 I lie first attorney who was ever able 
 to Collect evidence and prepare his 
 case by compulsory powers — such as 
 tljo>e with which he was furnished by 
 his fonunission. As to colonel Brown, 
 he was no more than the hand to bring 
 the witnesses before I\Ir. Commissioner 
 Powell ; he was only the instrument 
 in the hands of those commissioners, 
 whose compulsory powers enabled 
 them to bring by force, threats, or 
 money, every witness before them 
 ^vhom they thought necessary to the 
 support of their case. Mr. Powell, the 
 attorney for this prosecution, I think 
 ^we may venture to believe, however, 
 is the only commissioner in the busi- 
 ness. I wish most sincerely that Mr. 
 Cooke had not accepted the commis- 
 sion ; buf, perhaps, I am not dis- 
 pleased that Mr. Powell was the person 
 selected. We have it in evidence"* 
 it appears that Rastelli was first en- 
 gaged as a witness, and then as a 
 courier ; and I beg to call your lord- 
 ships' attention to the imnroprieNy of 
 employing the same person in the 
 double character of witness andcourier. 
 To be sure, if there could be a more 
 unfit season than another for such an 
 employment, is was that when this 
 man was sent otit of the country — ati 
 employment which gave him an op- 
 portunity of comparing notes, from 
 time to time, with those persons who 
 had an opportunity of watching the 
 conduct of the queen. I say it is the 
 most uncandid, not to say indecent, 
 proceeding, that was ever heard of in 
 the conduct of any inquiry, and ought 
 Dever to have occurred. The cha- 
 
382 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN, 
 
 racters of witness ami courier should 
 have been kept entirely distinct, but 
 more especially considering the vast 
 powers with uhich Mr. Powell was 
 invested, to enable him to execute the 
 duties of H connmissioner — an office 
 which gave him imujeuse advantas:e 
 in the first instance, from the previous 
 conimunicatious lie bad with Rastelli, 
 A^ho appears to have acted in the ser- 
 vice- of the conniiissioiters as clerk, 
 agent, and witness. I his employ mfnt 
 also furnislied him with the opportu- 
 nity of holding oi:t the terrors of per- 
 jury to to the witnesses who migiit be 
 disposed to come here on behalf of the 
 queen — to threaten them with punish- 
 ment, and to prevtnt, by various 
 means, the honest di cl.ar^e of (heir 
 duty towards our illustrious client. 
 My lords, even if thire had been no 
 distinci pledge given upon this sub- 
 ject, sail Mr. Powell ought to have 
 known better tiian to send this man 
 abroad to beat up ibr more recruits — 
 to mingle himself among more wit- 
 nesses, and to find out, it" possib e, the 
 means of contradicting the evidence' 
 for her majesty. But, my lords, this 
 is not all. in the language of plain 
 and sober truth, no man can conceive 
 the extent of injur}' inllicted uj.»«n her 
 majesty by being deprived of tne op- 
 portunity of cross-exajuining that man 
 at the moment when he was calhd 
 for. The mischief might never be 
 repaired. It is imj>ossible for any man 
 to calculate the consequences of not 
 being able to cross-examine him at 
 the critical moment when hi> presence 
 was required He is sent away im- 
 mediately after he is examined, and 
 -yw, on the 2oth day ot Ociober, he is 
 not returnetl, &nd there is no reason 
 assigned for his absence. What be- 
 comes of the security your lordships 
 gavt^ that truth should be told by this 
 witness, and that he should be sub- 
 jected to the pains and penalties of 
 perjury if he did not speak tht; truth ? 
 But that is not the worst part of the 
 story ; because he is taken away at a 
 period when it is a mosv, important 
 object to bring other witnesses, and 
 patch up a ragged case, t;y collecting 
 new facti and inlbrmatlon, to get nd 
 of the effect of our contradict oa. 1 
 think we have groat reason to com- 
 plain of want of candour in this pro- 
 ceeding, a coniplaini whicb ought to 
 Lave great weight when some persons 
 are coustautly appealing; to the house, 
 
 and casting imputations upon our 
 course of conduct. If this person bud 
 been sent away inadvertently, or 
 for want of proper caution, it was the 
 duty of those who sent him to apprise 
 us of what had taken place; but in- 
 stead of that, they uncandidly take the 
 citance of our not making the discovery 
 — a discovery which we should never 
 have made until we had sent for him 
 from Cotton Gardeji, and had not an- 
 swered when he was tirst called, I 
 don't think we should have been told 
 of the fact, according to the candour 
 we have hitherto experienced, if we 
 had not accidentally discovered it upon 
 the cross-examination of a persojn who 
 was called to contradict him, and then, 
 for the tirst time, it appears, that this 
 man had hed for some reason or other; 
 whether for an innocent purpose I care 
 not, but we should have, in candour, 
 been told of it. 
 
 - The Lord Chancellor here interposed, 
 and suggested to Mr. Deuman, whe- 
 ther it would not be desirable he should 
 j retire for a short time to refresh him- 
 self, considering the very arduous and _ 
 I important duty he had to discharge 
 i (hear, hear). 
 
 [ Mr. Deninan bowed thanks, and said, 
 I he should accept the indulgence of the 
 j house, but certainly for a very short 
 j time. The learned counsel accordingly 
 reiredjand the house adjournedduring 
 pleasure. 
 
 A t a quarter after two o'clock, Mr. 
 Deuman returned to the house, and then 
 proceeded as follows : — 
 
 My Loids, in the discharge of my 
 
 duly on this important subject, I have 
 
 been most anxioUs,and 1 am not aware, 
 
 upon looking back, that there is a single 
 
 point which 1 have left untouched, al- 
 
 ! tbou«h I am ready to admit, that the 
 
 arguments which I have submitted to 
 
 your lordships might have been made 
 
 I more fully and substantially urged. 
 
 j There is oniy one observation to which 
 
 I I am desirous of recurring, and that is, ' 
 
 j the observation whicb, anoug others, 
 
 was made upon the conduct of her 
 
 j royal iiighness in performing the part 
 
 of columbine while Luigi Bergami 
 
 ; jjerformed the part of harlequin, at 
 
 i the little theatre of 'he ViilaD'Este. 
 
 j My lords, 1 have only one remark to 
 
 I make uponthi? fact, and it is one which 
 
 will naturally occur to any of your 
 
 lordships wlso happen to be ;amiliar 
 
 with the nature of the characters of 
 
 barlequiu and columbine as .p€rfd»med 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 383 
 
 hi Italy. In I talj*, these characters are 
 ^uite different from tho^^e under the 
 same title represented at Drury I.ane. 
 Tliey lire lliere speaking characters, 
 and the name ishariiqnino. The i>ersou 
 Avho represents tiiis character is the 
 servant of the lover. Cohiaibine is the 
 RoMilva, and instead of being the lover 
 of harlequin, is the lover of another 
 character called Leliio, whose servant 
 harlequin is. The English exhibition 
 has been very improperly tratislated 
 from the Italian thcntre. I make this 
 observation merely as it occurred ; for 
 undoubtedly it would be too mueh to 
 attach anything crimiaal to her royal 
 hiojhness for an act, which is only con- 
 sistent with that dispi sition which she 
 has always shewn to enjoy all the in- 
 nocent pleasures of life, without sacri- 
 ficing; any part of that dignity which I 
 naturally belonged to her character. 
 Her royal hijjhness possesses that pe- 
 culiar talent, which often belongs to 
 individuals of higli rank and station, 
 that of lifting persons from an humble 
 sphere to a familiar intercourse, with- 
 out in the smallest degree , sacrificing 
 her title to that respeet, to that de- 
 ference, and to that atteation, which is 
 due, not only from a gooo" subject, but 
 which, under all circumstances, is due 
 from every honest man to females who 
 occupy so important a station. My 
 lords, in referring to the Milan com- 
 mission, my learned friend (Mr- 
 Brougham) is supposed to h^ve admit- 
 ted that nothing Itke a conspiracy ex- 
 isted in this case; but I think, if I re- 
 member right what he said qfl that oc- 
 casion, it was this : — <* That siipposing 
 a conspiracy did exist, it was no part 
 of his duty to prove It, in the first in- 
 stance, against the individuals who 
 might be charged as parties to it ;" — 
 but he added, *' if the case exhibited 
 all (he symptoms which have been" 
 found to arise from the Milan com- 
 mission, then the conclusion to which 
 their lords x:is must come was clear 
 and manifest.'* My lords, I beg leave 
 to adopt this part of my learned 
 friend's proposition. We arc not bound 
 to charge any individual or class of in- 
 dividuals with conspiracy, although, 
 perhaps, we might be able so to do ; 
 but if I satisfy your lordships that all 
 that has occurred cannot be reasonably 
 accounted fpr, except under ^circum- 
 ftances of great suspicion, then we shall 
 have a much better, and more con- 
 clusive case asftinsl thoffc vrho have 
 
 prosecuted her majesly than they hive 
 be(M) enabled to fabricate against her 
 majesty, with all their va-t tneans— 
 with ail their unboiin:led resources, and 
 with nil tht*ir uncontro'ed power. 
 How came ti»e witnesses in support of 
 this bill here ? It was s^id they had 
 not come by compuUion ; then, if they 
 came as volunteers, what were the 
 sordid and corrupt motives by which 
 they were influenced ? If they come 
 as the apostles of morality, did they 
 come without scrip or staCf, without 
 brass or silver in their pockets, without 
 shoes to their feet, and without two 
 coats to their back? Did they come 
 for their tender regard for the honor 
 and dignity pf the I'nglisii crown ? it 
 that were their object, i believe there 
 is not a maw who hears, me that vyill not 
 Join me in thinking, that their labours 
 have bc^n attended with an effect di- 
 rectly the reverse. Did they come to 
 support the moral interests of the 
 people of this vast empire ? I hum- 
 bly apprehend the moral interests of 
 these people would have been much 
 better consulted by a far different 
 course ; because, whatever great moral 
 results may ultimateiy arise from this 
 proceeding, as it now stands it can only 
 produce the most injurious effects upon 
 public morals. I say this because ip 
 the first place, th^ most innocent and 
 ordinary occupations of life have been 
 converted into evidence of crime, and 
 coupled with the most vicious and r»* 
 volting associations. Every little tran»' 
 action, however distant from suspicion 
 under other circumstances, has in the 
 present instance been blackened by the 
 touch of calumny and malignancy, in 
 what I have said I have been supposing 
 that all these facts have been proved 
 against her majesty, instead of thefir 
 having been, as is the truth, conlro- 
 ver-ted in the clearest and most satis- 
 factory manner ; but even supposing 
 she were guilty of all these sins against 
 morality— of all those shameless and 
 unblushing acts alluded to in the 
 charges, still there will lurk in tftc 
 mifids of all men that mischievous ca- 
 suistry which will induce them to find 
 a justification, an excuse, for what is 
 immoral, to weigh in the balance 
 against the disgrace ivhich may be ap- 
 prehended from yielding to temptation. 
 A mgre unfortunate result, or^one 
 which will be attended with more fatal, 
 and more distressing consequences to 
 fdttire ages, it if impojsiblc to conceive. 
 
 \ 
 
384 
 
 DEFENCE OF TFIE QUEEN. 
 
 This observation only aiiscs upon tbe 
 supposition, that the facts have been 
 proved; but thry arc not proved — they 
 have not li^cn made out — ihey shall be 
 shewn to have resulted in every iust;ince 
 from such circumstances, niid from 
 such individuals as arc entitled to no 
 credit vilialcver before any just tribu- 
 nal. My lords, I was proceeding; to 
 observe upon the Milan comniission, 
 and upon the extraordinary means 
 which, under the direction of the in- 
 dividuals composing that commission, 
 were taken for the corruption and col- 
 lection of witnesses. The minutes on 
 your table shew the way in which 
 Sacchi met with Majocclii, and the way 
 in which De Mont was made the fir>t 
 object of his attack, as well as describe 
 the course of his travels under the cha- 
 racter in which he acted. My lords, 
 Raslelli was withdrawn from your no- 
 tice, at a period and under circum- 
 stances which become extremely ma- 
 terial, when it is considered who the 
 gentleman was by whom be was sent 
 away. I be^ to call your lordships' at- 
 tention to Mr. Powell's statement on 
 this subject, at page 811, of the printed 
 evidence. Mr. Powell says, '* that he 
 sent Rastelli on a mission out of this 
 country — that he recommended him to 
 the foreign office, as a courier, to get a 
 passport ; and, my lords, the motives, 
 the reasons, and the grounds, by which 
 hQ juititied himself in sending away 
 this important personage, I will state in 
 his own language. He says, " I learned 
 that various reports were propagated 
 in Italy, of the dangers which the 
 witnesses for the bill ran by coming 
 over to this country ; I had heard thai 
 reports were propagated in Italy that 
 they had received great personal in- 
 jurie?. I h u1 heard that the families of 
 those persons who were here, were ex- 
 ceedingly anxious upon the subject of 
 their relations who were in this country ; 
 t had under-tood Rastelli to be ac- 
 quainted with the greater ])art of the 
 iamilies of those per9ons, and 1 con- 
 sidered that it would be an net of hu- 
 manity to those relations and friends, 
 I hat some person who had seen the 
 whole of these witnesses, in this 
 country, and who was acqnainsed with 
 their families, should go over there 
 with letters frcm these witnes.'-esj and 
 iKiving been himself an eye-witness of 
 their safety here, that he should report 
 to those families what their situation 
 really ^^as, and by that means that h« 
 
 ^honld put an end to tlie great anxiety 
 which I thought those families mun 
 necessarily feel for llieir friends.'* 
 Now, my lords, if this were the fact, I 
 beg- to know why Rastelli was the 
 person sent? It is said that he was 
 known to several of them, and therefore 
 he was the fittest person to go. But 
 all these persons wrote letters, — and 
 why was Rastelli to be the courier to 
 carry these letters, — would not the 
 families and friends of these people 
 believe the/ testimony of their own hand 
 writing, without the additional evi- 
 dence of Rastelli? Why. I will again 
 ask, was Rastelli so particularly se- 
 lected :" This man had stated expressly, 
 in his evidence, that he knew the wit- 
 nesses only by sight, and that this 
 knowledge was obtained while he con- 
 tinued with them in bringing them over 
 to this country. He was asked to state 
 which of these individuals he knew, 
 and he said there were some he knew, 
 and some he did not know, and many 
 of them that he had not seen before. 
 In page 413, he is asked which of them 
 he does know ; and he states the names 
 of Carlo Rancatti, Geralimo Maoni, 
 Paolo Oggeoni, Philip Biganti, and 
 Henrico Bail. Neither of the two la->t 
 of these have been called; they were 
 therefore at liberty to have attended 
 Mr. Krous when he was sent as courier 
 upon the expedition to Milan. Well, 
 but Rastelli was sent, and Mr. Powell 
 is examined : and here it is not a little 
 singular to remark, that Mr. PowelFs 
 memory fails in a very material point — 
 namely, that Rastelli was to return 
 before the 3d of October. It was not 
 till a subsequent part of his evidence, 
 that he recollected that he had given 
 specific instructions that he should come 
 back before the 3d of October. He is 
 tirst stated to have been sent out from 
 pure tenderness to the families of the 
 witnesses, without any reference to fu- 
 ture proceedings. That any future 
 procceJings will take place, I hope 
 and trust there is but little chance. 
 Still, however, in an answer to a sub- 
 sequent question put to Mr. Powell, «s 
 to whether he had received any com- 
 munication, which led him to believe 
 it probable that Rastelli would soon be 
 in England, he answers—** 1 havo 
 every reason to believe that he will hist 
 in England soon, because the most po- 
 sitive directions were seutthat he should 
 be sent over; these directions wt;i«e 
 sont two or three times." And it i* 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 385 
 
 xcry remarka'.ic that, at the time Mr. 
 Powell !<|)eaks with su much conlidence, 
 lie is apprised that the man i.s con lined 
 to his bed uith a fever : such, however, 
 is the iiiiluence which he thinks his di- 
 rections will have, that hv concludes the 
 niomeiit they are leceived the man 
 *' will take up his bod and walk," and 
 l)resent himself in live days at your 
 loidships* bar. Now, on this point, 1 
 thiuk the correspondence which was 
 read the day before yesterday is of no 
 Small importance. In one of those 
 letters it is stated by colonel Brown, 
 that he much fears that Kastelli is 
 shuffling : lie adds " He is in bed, and 
 says he has a fever from crossing the 
 ■water, and he has a hearty dislike to 
 returning to England.'' My lords, I 
 believe this to be extremely correct ; lie 
 may have heard of the punishment of 
 the piUory in this country, and that 
 persons guilty of p^'rjury are still 
 liable to that punishment. Colonel 
 Brown then goes on to say, '* I wish he 
 had not been sent back at such a mo- 
 ment, as it will, I am sure, be diilicult 
 to move hira again. I shall press him 
 the moment he leaves his bed." This 
 letter was dated the 27th of September. 
 There is a subsequent letter, on the £d 
 of October, which says, " Rastelli is 
 still ill in his bed ;'* and another of the 
 same date, to this tiiVct, " RasteUi is 
 also on his pillow, and has been bled 
 twice yesterday. He has a serious fever, 
 and, as I hear, he attril>utes it to 
 having vomited blood on the passage 
 over the water. I ex:eat very great 
 difficulty in getting him back to Lou- 
 don." Now, my lords, these ietttrs 
 from colonel lirown were in Mr. Pow- 
 ell's possession on the 7th of October, 
 and yet, on the 13th of October, Mr. 
 Powell tells your lordships, that '* he 
 has every reason to believe Kastelli 
 will be very soon in England ?" Well, 
 this being the case, I shall now proceed 
 a little further with Mr Powell. Your 
 lordships will recollect that Mr. Pow- 
 ell states in another part of his evi- 
 dence, that *' he had not the least idea 
 that Rastelli would be wanted again in 
 the house of lords." If this were Mr. 
 Powell's notion on this subject, I should 
 like to know why his instructions were, 
 that " he should return with all possible 
 despatch;** and that he should be in 
 England precisely on the day on which 
 the proceedings in this house were to 
 recommence ? Why, if *• he had not 
 the least idea that Rastelli would be 
 49 
 
 wanted, until this bill found its way on 
 the table of the house of commons;*' 
 and he speciiuaUy desired he might be 
 retiirned.on or before the 3d of Oc;ober« 
 He states that, '* if he had n.Tt the 
 fullest expectation that he would re- 
 turn, he would not have sent him." It 
 is qnile clear thai other persons might 
 have been found to tranquillize the 
 minds of the relations of the witnesses 
 iu this ei;uatry. lip.t upon Saturday the 
 14th of Octt)ber, Mr. i'owell is again 
 called to stale soniethin;;- on the subject 
 of Ilastelli's deparlure; and he then 
 tells you of a circumstance of which 
 vou had not at all heard before : he 
 fells you that Rastelli took some pa- 
 pers to be legalized, i^nd that he v^as to 
 return with those legalized papers to be 
 j)resented to your lordsiiips on the 3d of 
 October ? I cannot, myself, at all . 
 think how it was possible for these 
 papers to be brought before your lord- 
 ships. However, giving Mr. Powell 
 every credit for the existence of such 
 documents, 1 should like to know how 
 it was he did not think proper to dis. 
 close any thing respecting them when 
 he was at your lordships' bar, upon the 
 former occasion. The correspoiidence 
 of colonel Brown seems mainly to con- 
 sist of an intimation that Rastelli was 
 ill of a fever, and it is this fact which 
 the attorney in this case thinks it ne- 
 cessary to withhold, cisserting that it is 
 a confidential communication, and that 
 the commisiioners must be protected 
 from all inquiry. Mr. Powell, who 
 first stated that Rastelli was sent to 
 Milan merely for the purpose of calm- 
 ing the minds of the families of the 
 witnesses in this country, afterwards 
 says he recollects that he had slated to 
 Ilastelli he was to be back on or be- 
 fore the 3d of October, or as soou as 
 he possibly could. Then again, when 
 reminded that he had said that he 
 thought Rastelli would not be wanted 
 till the bill went to the house of com- 
 mons, he reiterates his .answer and 
 again says, that such was his impres- 
 sion. I should like to know then what 
 diflerence it made whether Rastelli re- 
 turned on the 3d of October or at a 
 subsequent period? None, whatever. 
 But when your lordships recur to a 
 statement made by Mr. Powell on the 
 correspondence to which I have just 
 now referred, and which is dated Lin- 
 coln's Inn, September 13th, a new light 
 breaks in ; then it seems there was 
 another and a more important object 
 
366 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEW. 
 
 for sending Rastnlli back to colonel 
 Brown. VVhat does he say, '* I now 
 return you RH8lclli,as I conceive ho 
 may be of use t<i you." I'o you, 
 colonel Brown, who are the resident 
 a^ent of this notable commission al 
 Milan. Was this for ihe sole purpo-e 
 of tranquillizing the minds of the 
 friends of the Italian witnesses. No; 
 and the conclusion of the letter is 
 salliciently clear on this point; for 
 Mr. Powell then goes on to say,»** but 
 take care that you Irt me have him 
 again on the 3d of October." For 
 ■what? to be ready to stand another 
 cross-examination? No; but to bring 
 with him all the witnesses and infor- 
 mation that his friend colonel Brown 
 can collect. Thus il appears at last, 
 that Rastelli goes out for all these dif- 
 ferent objects, and the prevaricating 
 disposition of Mr. Powell stands openly 
 exposed. Now, my lords, 1 do not 
 -want to falsify the testimony of Mr. 
 Powell, but 1 will put it to your lord- 
 ships whether, if a ^allani, but not 
 perhaps we 1 1- in formed individual, \^ho 
 had come to your bar to give evidence 
 in favor of the queen, had, in his cross- 
 exam in.- tion on the part of my learned 
 iriend the 8olrcitor-ljeneral, given tes- 
 timony of this description, whether 
 there would not have been son>c mur- 
 murs of applause — some thrills of 
 triumph trumpeted ihrongh tlie streets 
 of London, that he had been detected 
 in prevarication and fal-ehood? My 
 lords, while on this subject, I will thew 
 the manner in which the proceedings in 
 this bouse are represented, and the sort 
 of machinations which are resorted to 
 for the purpose of destroying the illus- 
 trious individual no^^ on lier trial. Jn 
 what manner do I find the gallant of- 
 ficer who gave his eridence at your 
 lordships' bar descrilx^d ia one of the 
 daily papers of this town. I fii'd it 
 s>tatcd, that " in coni^* quence of the 
 manzier in which captain Flynn gave 
 his evidence, he h?id b«<'n consigned to 
 cverlas.ing infamy.'^ 'I'o your lord- 
 ships I will refer what he did say on 
 that occasion ; and I am sure you will 
 agrea witii me in thinkina; that he spoke 
 nothing but the nuth. 1 merely make 
 this remark for the purpose of con- 
 straining the evidence of a witnes^s 
 who manifested the most nervous ir- 
 ritation — the moat nervous trepidation 
 — with the evidence of Mr. Powell, the 
 attorney for the prosecution — and 1 
 wfll ask your lordships whether you 
 
 have discovered less of falsehood aird 
 prevarication in him than you found 
 from captain Flynn. In the lanie 
 paper it is stated that the husband of 
 madamc Martini was a bankrupt. 
 Your lordships' will hardly forget the 
 answer which that lady gave to this 
 iur.iuuation. She repelled It with in- 
 dignation, and pronounced it an utter 
 falsehood. But, my lords, it is not 
 worth my while to waste your lordships' 
 time in referring to the exaggerated 
 statements, and to the gross misrepre- 
 sentations which now, for the first time, 
 proceed from the English press in order 
 lo destroy the party accused, and to 
 take from the defendant, not only 
 the presumption of innocence which 
 belonged to every itidividual till pro- 
 nounced guilty, but at once to 
 pronounce her guilty, without the 
 possibility of proving her innocenccf 
 (cries of' name the paper). Mr. Den- 
 raan mentioned the Morning Post, and 
 then proceeded as follows : Now, my 
 lords, as to the circumstances under 
 which these Milan Commissioners have 
 acted : supposing it had been their dis- 
 position to get evidence at all risques — 
 would it have been possible to have se- 
 lected better agents than Sacchi and 
 Kastelli— would it have been possible 
 to apply to a better quarter to obtain 
 information respecting the queen than 
 by resoning to De Mont? She had 
 been for three uninterrupted years in 
 the service of her majesty, and was 
 constantly attendant upon her person 
 at whatever place she visited. Do you 
 think that under the great powers, and 
 with the unlimited funds left at the dis- 
 posal of these commissioners, that they 
 would have remained in ignorance oF 
 any one act, or any one D:ovemeut, of 
 ber roNal highness? Do you think that 
 in the selection of the persons to prove 
 such acts as were essential to their pur- 
 pose, that they would not have chosen, 
 such persons for their agents as were 
 callable of gitting up facts which it 
 would be impossible to find any indivi- 
 dual to contradict. In their selection 
 of Rastelli, however, they were roost 
 unfortuaate ; and the absence of this 
 man, it was impossible, with a mcw to 
 her majesty's interests, too much to de- 
 plore. My lords, if we had, him now, 
 how different would be his situation to 
 that in which he first stood It is m 
 vain to call his absence a loss to her 
 majesty's cause, and lo say, that some 
 equivalent must be allowed : the los5 ii 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEH. 
 
 387 
 
 irreparable ; your lordships cau no more 
 niake up for this loss than you can 
 recall the time that is passed. It is 
 »|uite impossible that any thing can be 
 coDoetled to us which will operate as a 
 cuuipeusation in su^'h a case. Hut VMiat 
 could be allowed ? V\ ill your lordships 
 ifive us up Cuchi, jfiveup his evidence, 
 and strike it out of the case? That we 
 dou't want— for his evidence is de- 
 stroyed already. Then whot will you 
 ffive us next? Will you give us up 
 Kagazzoni and his Adam and Eve scene r 
 'I'hat, too, is disposed of. Will you give 
 up Ogoioni? Jn lact, in the whole 500 
 pages of evidence before your lordships, 
 what is there you cau give us up as an 
 equivalent for this loss? The only dif- 
 ficulty is, to find throughout the wiiole 
 of those pages, amou;;;st all that has 
 been proved against the queen, one re- 
 spectable evidence to whose testimony 
 the slightest value cau be attached. 
 My lords, I shall now refer to Rastelli, 
 and to the manner iu which he was 
 employed in the luouih of November, 
 1817. 1 allude to the period when he 
 was " bcatingup for recruits iu all quar- 
 ters." ihe evidence of Phillipo Pomi 
 is most important in this point, and 
 explains to you the whole proceeding. 
 Pomi states, that having gone to the 
 Barona, i-.e was there met by several 
 ))ersons, including Rastelli and De 
 Mont. Hastelli addressed him, and 
 said " that as he was frequently in the 
 habit of attending he was an individual 
 who wotild make a grand witness, be- 
 cause he must Wnow facts to the dis- 
 credit of her royal highness," The 
 answer the man makes to this applica- 
 tion of IJastelli is, ** that he knows 
 nothing at all to alieot the character of 
 her royal hightiess; but that, on the 
 contrary, he knows her to have been a 
 benefieerrt character, and an individual 
 whose acts had been so good that h« 
 would go to the eud of the world to 
 se;-ve her." But ivhat «ays Rastelli, 
 *♦ Never mini that," says he, *' here is 
 De Mont, who has made a good day's 
 work; she has done well for herself; 
 and, Pomi, if you have any thing to 
 depose, now is the time to come for- 
 ward, to get a gieat present and become 
 a great man." They then went to an 
 inn together, and wliat was said there? 
 " Kastelli told me," sa>s Pom , ** that 
 De IVfout was still in the service of her 
 royal highness (a fact which she did 
 not mention herself), and then 1 found 
 out Uai she was here j and then he 
 
 told me if I would depose something 
 against the princess 1 should have a 
 great present. 1 said I had been a 
 long time in her royal highness's house, 
 and Uncw nothing against her. He 
 said, 1 know nothing myself ; but can- 
 not you say that you have seen Ber- 
 gami lifting her on an ass, and putting 
 his hands under her petticoats? I re- 
 plied, '* that was a real falsehood, fo rl 
 had never seen Bergami treating hei* 
 otherwise than with the greatest re- 
 spect ;" and so this application ended. 
 It shews to your lordships, however, 
 Ihe unlimited power of promising which 
 was given to these Rastellis and >>acchi8. 
 But was it to be supposed that every 
 application of the same sort was equally 
 unsuccessful ? It appeared, too, that 
 not only had money been offered, but 
 thiBt the influence of the Austrian go- 
 vernment had been exerted to obtain 
 these witnesses, and to assist the objects 
 of the commissioners. It is quite pos- 
 sible, and more than probable, that other 
 persons were engaged in the same sort 
 of agency, whose names had not yet 
 been discovered. Riganti has been 
 proved to have made Similar offers. 
 The same Pomi, to whom I have al- 
 ready alluded, has given evidence of 
 this fact. He was stopped in his testi- 
 mony, because the agency of Riganti 
 had not been fixed ; but he afterwards 
 stated the attempts which had been 
 made to induce him to come forward ; 
 and proved that Riganti was one of the 
 most active agents of the Milan Cora- 
 mission in corrupting and bribing wit- 
 nesses to depose against the queen. 
 Nothing, my lords, surprises me so 
 much, as that one should have beea 
 able to effect so much. Is it not a 
 great deal that we, who have had no 
 list of witnesses, and no opportunity of 
 coming at the truth, should have been 
 ahle to detect two individuals acting iu 
 this way. RasteUi, who has been spi- 
 rited away, and Riganti, who it is 
 I kntiwn is in this country, and yet who 
 I has not been called to c< ntradict the 
 wicked acts which have been charged 
 against him. What did this fellow pro- 
 pose to Pomi to swear, after he bad 
 distinctly stated that he knew of no im- 
 propriety on the part of her royal high- 
 ness ? Why, that *• he had seen Ber- 
 gami put his hand up her royal high* 
 ness's petticoats when he was lifting 
 her on an ass," Offering a positive 
 bribe to a witness to swear to an in- 
 famous aud atrocious falsehood. This 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 evidence, tuy lords, is important in ano- 
 ther point of view ; for on referring to 
 tlie testimony of Majocclii, it will be 
 seen that lie, while her majesty was at 
 Genoa, attempted to cast a similar 
 imputation up;n her majesty, by de- 
 seribiiic; the tact of Beri!;ami lifting; her 
 upon an ass as a positive embrace Jt 
 was thus that trutli was made the foun- 
 dation of falsehood. ^1 have before 
 staled, that although Rastelii has been 
 sent away, ytt that Rigauti is still in 
 thscouutry; and yet, notwithstanding 
 the nature ol' the cross-examination into 
 which my learned friends have entered, 
 captain liriggs, of whom 1 shall bye 
 and bye s^ptak, is the only witness who 
 Ijas ])cen called to contradict the wit- 
 nesses who have been examined on the 
 part of the queei>. I shall now, my 
 lords, pioceed to HonHglio Foujati. It 
 is impossible for me not (o admit that 
 this person is not a very pure character ; 
 but, wiih respect to those who have 
 come against the queen, i must say 1 
 think he is purity itself. He has cer- 
 taiuiy be!.'n guilty of acts wiiich are veiy 
 discreditable to him ; but then he has 
 vepentcd of then, and 1 wish to my 
 soul those on the other side had re- 
 pented also. ;^W lords, in page 878 it 
 will be seen " that while Codatzi was 
 attorney to her majesty, this individual, 
 who was his chr.<, was applied to by 
 Viimacarti to steal from his master's 
 oflice ihose papers which related to her 
 majesty's personal aflfuirs, lor which he 
 was to receive the sum of three or four 
 hundred fratics." Now my learned 
 friend says, that all this com< s on him 
 by surprise. Yet, in his cross-exami- 
 nation, I'C fully proves, that the whole 
 of the facts were completely within his 
 knowledge. The witness swore dis- 
 titiotlv, that he went to colonel Jirown 
 to complain that the compensation he 
 had received was not satisfactory, and 
 that col n-1 firown shut the door to 
 prevent the c^n versa; ioi» from Ixing 
 overheard ; and my learned friends, l.y 
 their cross-examination, admit that co- 
 lonel Brown shut the door : but want to 
 make the witness tell his name. V/ell, | 
 then, the man eays, " 1 got the papers : 
 for Viimacarti several times, and I re- ' 
 pented of it at the beginning; of the > v>ar. j 
 iie was then asked by the S.»licitor- j 
 General, '* if he did not, as late as ! 
 July, furnish Vilmac-.n-ii with papers | 
 relative to the queen .^" By this very i 
 question, my lords, 1 submit, that my ; 
 loomed I'rieuds have evinced their full • 
 
 I knowledge of what was going forward 
 between Viimacarti and this man. My 
 lords, we have had no list of witnesses 
 against her majesty ; but your lordships 
 will see my learned friends o\\ the other 
 side have had an opportunity of know- 
 ing every witnesB who was to be «ralled 
 in her favour, from trie atrocious vil- 
 lany of their agents, who bribed Pomati 
 to hetray the confidence of his mas- 
 ter's illustrious client. I will not deny, 
 that it is due to colonel Jrown to make 
 further inquiry into this sub ect here- 
 after; but 1 will say, that, with the 
 knowledge which colonel Brown had 
 of this business, it was his duty to have 
 j come over here to defend his character, 
 I and to contradict tlie testinsony of this 
 j clerk. My b arned friends cannotjphad 
 I ignorance of the process against Viima- 
 carti in Milan at the suite of Codatzi, 
 for his conduct with respect to these 
 papers, and it was dismissed, not for 
 want of proof, but from difficulty of 
 proving that the papers stolen were of 
 any value. Under such circumstances, 
 njy lords, I re i)eat, that colonel Hrown 
 j ought to have been here; &nv I caniK)t 
 b',t think that it as monstrous to ask 
 for time to enable him to come from 
 Milan. My lords, I must ndonhtcdly 
 say, that it is a ma'tcr to me of great 
 surprise, after tiie sort of cross-exami- 
 nation to whicli the witnes-es ft)r her 
 majesty have been subjected, and f. om 
 which it migiit fairly have been inferred 
 that they were uttering that which was 
 false, that no atlenipt should be made 
 to call other witnesses tu contradict 
 them. It is indeed matter • f surprise 
 to me, that only one witness should have 
 been called ti* the bar to contradict any 
 part of ti»e defence — and the fact to 
 wij ch thai witness has been called, J 
 am 410VV about to notice. Lieutenant 
 Hownam, who has been for several 
 years in the suite of her royal highness, 
 who saw Bergami in the various situa- 
 tions of courier, page, equerry, and 
 finally of chamberlain, and who also 
 saw him for the first time introduced to 
 the table of her royal highness, dis- 
 tinctly swears that he never observed 
 the smallest impropriety to have taken 
 place between these two individuals. 
 The manner in which lieutenant How- 
 nam had given his evidence, carried 
 with it every mark of candour and 
 truth, lie (lid not strain his memory 
 as to a single fact, nor was he betrayed 
 into the slightest mistake. But he is 
 asked it he ever recoliecled, while walk- 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN, 
 
 389 
 
 in?: the quarter-deck with a captain, 
 saying any thin"- about •' i?oiiig on his 
 knees beTore h;r royal iiig;linc>s, and 
 entreating iicr. ^vith tears in Iiis eyes, 
 not to take Bergami to lier table?" 
 And mark his answer, " I do not re- 
 oolleot it, and therefore, I do not be- 
 lieve it ever t(<ok place at all." Your 
 lordships are aware that matters of be- 
 lief arc not evid.nce, unless it can he 
 proved that the absence of belief is im- 
 possible ; but we have not taken that 
 objection, because we wished the hou-e 
 to know all that these two honourable 
 men had to say. Nov/, my lords, i 
 t^ubmit, that the thing which lieutenant 
 Hownam is representtd to have said 
 took place, never could have taken 
 place — it was impossible that it should 
 — and for this obvious reason, that at 
 the time IJergami was taken to her 
 royal highness's table, no previous ar- 
 rangement had been niade — no sugges- 
 tion had been thrown outon thesubject. 
 The fact was, that tlie occurrence took 
 place by surprise, when her royal high- 
 uess was on h<^r joun.ey to St. Gothard. 
 That \>as the lirst time the courier uas 
 found sitting at her tahle, and this with- 
 out any j^revinus preparation. It was a 
 sudden determination, arisiiigoutof the 
 circumstances in which her royal high- 
 ness was ]»laced, and from that kind- 
 ness which she is described as having 
 evinced towards all her domestics, whe- 
 ther high or low, under every circum- 
 stance, but especially at a moment 
 when she was snatching a hasty meal 
 among extraordinary dilhculties. There- 
 fore 1 say that it was impossible lor 
 lieutenant ilownam to have foreseen 
 such an event; and evin if he had, it 
 is not ver>' natural that a young man as 
 he then was, dependent on the bounty 
 of his royal mistress, nv.d indebted to 
 her royal highness for his promotion, 
 would have th<''uglit himself justified in 
 taking such a liberiy as to interfere 'vith 
 an arrangement which slie might tiiiuk 
 proper to make. 15ul, my lords, I beg 
 you will not understatul me as ineaning 
 to discredit captain I'riggs, althongh I. 
 did not imagine that conversitions be- 
 txTcen officers on the (jUHrter-deck, and 
 especially oi a contidenlial naiure, were 
 treated uith a litt e more of that reserve 
 than appears to have been the -case in 
 the present instance. Aitd 1 say ihis 
 the more as captain Hrggs must have 
 known he was conv^sing with a gent e- 
 man enjoying the fullest confidence of 
 her royal highness, i am sorry in 
 
 . speaking of captain Briggs that 1 should 
 j have been wrong in my estimate of his 
 I feelings, at least on such a subjecL 
 , But, my lords, I do not think that the 
 i memory of captain liriggs, even in his 
 I report of this confidential conversation, 
 I has been perfectly correct. 1 mean no 
 I ollence ; bai I ihmk the probability is, 
 I that the expressions made use of by 
 ' lieutenant Hownam were something 
 . like tliese ; «' If I could have prevented 
 I it J W(,uld liave prevented it, and, with 
 j tears in my eyes, J would have eu- 
 j treated her royal highness." This is, 
 j in my opdiun, the only likely solution 
 I of the discrepance in the evidence of 
 { these iwo i;entlen»eu ; for I am cou- 
 I vinced that they are hotii honourable 
 I men, a;i<i therefore 1 would not say^ a 
 I word to impeach the one for the pur- 
 I pose of defending the other. My lords, 
 j that eii cuinstaiice, and the circumstance 
 I of lieuteuaiit Flynn saying that his name 
 ! was signed to a paper which was not 
 signed, are the < uly two circumstances 
 ! i:i the whule of ihj evidence in favour 
 1 o! ihe qiicca, from beginning to end, 
 j upon wiiich one v\ord of duubt has been 
 thrown, and t)iese i apprehend 1 have 
 j now exjdained t > your lordshij)s' satis- 
 I faction. Tliere is lUJthing else on which 
 j 1 thiiik it necessary to otl'er a word of 
 apology or explanation. I think that 
 the apoh)gy ought to cnme from the 
 otle. Side, and esjjecially when your 
 lordships eon.e to reflect upon the case 
 whidi ha- been e5labl.shed on the part 
 of her majesiy. ^Vhen the fact of lady 
 Charlotte {j lulsay's continuance in the 
 household c.t her royal highness for so 
 1 ng a period i> cou'/idered, 1 think 
 this itself is an {tccjuittsd in that lady's 
 mind of iter royal mistress of all the 
 ealumnie'i uliich had been ciiculated 
 to her prejudice. My lords, a long list 
 i>\' pers(»n? from Mr. St. Leger down to 
 Mr. W. liurrell, was giveu to your 
 lori'ships, v»f persons who had been 
 obliged to (juit the service of her royal 
 lii;;hness on accorwit of the impro- 
 priety of her Wemeauoir. If this were 
 t:ue, was there ever sue ban opportu- 
 iJy fi»r esiai)lisidi)g this impropriety. 
 NVhere were all these persons, and 
 what prevented them from giving evi- 
 dence to the fact if it existed ? Have 
 not the major |>art of them been at 
 your lordship?*' bar, and distinctly dis- 
 pn»ved the a letralions which have 
 been made .' Is it to be credited that 
 if there were any bona fide thought 
 that her majesiy had misconducted 
 
noo 
 
 DCFBPMIE OF THE QFEEW. 
 
 herself in the manner described, that 
 she would not have received some re- 
 monstrance tioui home, and would not 
 have been wariied that express chargjes 
 had been made against her which she 
 Mas called U[»ou to refu'.e. Captain 
 Bri^grs a^d Cnpiain Pechcll must have 
 heard of these repuri*, and licuteuaut 
 Flynn niisjht have been !e^i>rted lo on 
 the ftubjeci if necessary. Nothing of 
 the kind has been done ; and not one 
 of these dozen persuiis ha^ been called 
 to establish a sit-j^le facr which could 
 he the ground lor the rcntntcst sus- 
 picion. It is (IKficiilt to iuia:;inc how 
 any human beuii; could have the 
 crviclty to allow iiii> accusation to sleep 
 ior six years. Had it been broujiht 
 forward soon after the transactions 
 occurred, many circumstances, now 
 impossible Ut be explained, mi<;l't have 
 admitted of an easy explanation. 
 Rumours and rt|)orts have been al- 
 lowed to ripen iniolhe mos-t ntaligDaut 
 charges j ,ind ii i3 only to be lamented 
 that any circumstance of the siuldeu 
 ])romotion ^>f Bcri^atui shouhl have 
 ^iven plausibiliiy to the siatcMuents of 
 thcae blood hounds of scandal with 
 * Mfhom the (jtieen has had to deal in 
 the nei<^hboiirhood of Milan. My lords, 
 if there has been any fault, it has 
 been the faidt of indi>crctii»n, but no 
 itnproprieiy ; and it vtfas ojdy indis- 
 creet because Mr. Cruven had warneil 
 her royal highness of the spies by 
 ■wlnmi she was sorroimdetl ; because 
 lieutenant Hovuiaui had probably made 
 H siauilar reuninstrance ; and becaust' 
 she had Lad the «*x.|ericijee of l8{.Mi, 
 and the knowb-doe ui Baron Onipted.;. 
 It is o«i these j:rt;und»i alone, my lord?, 
 that I ailuw it to be indisereet, be- 
 cause I believe, in my conscience, in 
 Kvery other point of view, that liie 
 conduct ot' her royal liij^hne^s has been 
 most satisfactorily ex[)laiued. Tiie 
 teamed council on the other side ha\e 
 .said, and the world would have been 
 taught to believe, that all the witnesses 
 were to be called on, whatever way 
 their evidence niijjht operate. 1 am 
 to suppooC theu> uiv lords, ttiat my 
 learned frietu!, the Soliciioi-(te.:ieral, 
 who concluded with a prayer Ww the 
 qtieen, to " iiive her the victory over 
 all her enen:ies," (which seems very 
 likely to be •rranted) thought that the 
 Earl of Oiiildford, who, without dis- 
 trust, twice sat at the table of the 
 princess with 15erj;ami (for her royal 
 bii;hDcs3 courted the society of accooi- 
 
 ; plishcd and polished En|;lisbmen, lik-« 
 ; the nobie earl), would hare been able 
 I to p/ove something against the queen, 
 I and otjsequeutly out of mere charity 
 j declineil to call him. In the same 
 I way, 1 suppose, the Aiiorney-Genetal 
 j ihoui^hi thai lord Glenbervje, who 
 I made a vidmitary tender of theS^ervicca 
 of his \doy, when, in some way or 
 j other, all her En^clish suite hnd dropped 
 I away from the priiice-.s, could only |:ive 
 tesiimony to her disa<ivautaj;e. Fur 
 i the sauie reason lady C. Litidsay. who 
 ! iiad not seen the slii!;t>te«it impropriety, 
 I n)u>t have been withheld. Lord Llan- 
 I dalf too had not been called by the 
 I -jupporiers j»f the bill, h.ecausc his Jord- 
 i ship, as well as Sir VV. Gell and Mr. K. 
 (.'raven, were well acquauited with the 
 habits of her r(i>al hii;liness, and nriust 
 have kno vu tiem to be impure. They 
 must have looked uj)ou Dr. Holland 
 loo as a person whose evidence would 
 have been most injurious, iint even if 
 this were so, my learned fiiends Wi)uld 
 have had an opportunity of draw in;^ 
 out fa{ t>, by he easy and ordinal y pro- 
 cess ol examination, without resorting 
 to a cr»»s-exaui!natiiin, which iliey %o 
 well understand, and of wliich in the 
 course of this uKpdiy they have jjiveii 
 such slrikin;; exam|ies. Am 1 to be 
 icdd, my lords, that such witnesses a» 
 those whom 1 have enumeiated are 
 immaterial, and j)rove noihinj; as to 
 the main facts of this case ? 1 assert 
 ou the contrary, that they jrave the 
 most decided nei-ative, and s-how the 
 utter imiiossibiliiy «)f au adulterous 
 intercourse. From first to last there 
 has been no attempt to disi^uise ; no 
 atienipt to conceal; the promotion of 
 Ueriiami wa^ attended with circum- 
 stances naturally to account for it, and 
 there is noihinu- in his manners to luark 
 that improper assumption of privilege 
 which an illicit amour wolud have en- 
 titled him to claim. When the bill is 
 founded i>n the supposition of the low, 
 de<jraiied, and menial capacity of the 
 individual so promoted, it would have 
 been but fair to inquire under what 
 circumstaiues l:e had been receive»l 
 into the princess's service ; under what 
 circumstances -she chose him for her 
 senior chamberlain, and whether she 
 could have raised a man to fill that 
 office with more ability, discretion, 
 and proi)r:ery ? — Perhafs, my lords, 
 I onojht not tj fio through with particu- 
 larity all the evidence called iq exeul- 
 pation, aiiUuugU that may be cuu- 
 
 l 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEK. 
 
 dOl 
 
 sitlcieil as my peculiar duty. Other- 
 wise 1 should refer the hoii»;e to the 
 testimony of NViHiam Carrinjcio" and 
 John Whitcombe (tiie sei vitnis of Sir 
 \Vm. Gell and Mr. Craven), Mrho proved 
 that the whole story of the illicit con- 
 nexion at Naples was the fuhricaiiou 
 of De Monf. In the same way I would 
 advert to all the snl>-;eqiieul win esses — 
 to Sicard, to Dr. Holland, t.) Mr. Mills, 
 and to every person that has been pro- 
 duced in snc('essi»)n. Tiiey ha\e dis- 
 proved the case on so many poiuts as 
 to deprive it of every ve^tii;e of credit : 
 ihey have coniradicteil ihe testimony of 
 witnesses, who, indeed, already stuod 
 self-contradcied and self-condeniued. 
 The ccuusel for her niale>ty has done 
 mere than they would have been called 
 upon to do in any court of justice, when 
 they condescended to a'wt an answer 
 to such animals as iiad been |daced at 
 the bar on the other side. Every op- 
 porlnuity of contradiction had been 
 successfully seized ; and on every single 
 point, where it was possible to show 
 falsehood, that falsehood hud been 
 distinctly exposed. Jt is impossible 
 that the house can give ear to any 
 such in>i.iualion as that those who 
 were discredited in every particular, 
 where it was possible to discredit them, 
 %vcre entitled to belief as (o facts which 
 rested on the knowleii;;e or invention 
 of themselves alone. It is enoujrh to 
 raentionjthe names of Seni^aglia, Char- 
 iiitz, and Carlsrhue, ti> brin^ to njind 
 the atrocious attempts at subornation, 
 which would c»)uvcrt the most innocent 
 acts into the most disg^nsting exhibition. 
 My loids, I am aware that it would be 
 expected of me that I should say some- 
 thing on the subject of the witnesses 
 we have not called ; and here, as in 
 every part of the case, I beg leave to 
 contrast, in principle and circumstance* 
 tie situation of the accuser and the 
 accused. Every prosecutor who pre- 
 tended to come forward in behalf of 
 public justicci is bound by the office 
 iie ha"? undertaken to lay before the 
 jury all the evideuce that can bear 
 upon the facts. What then was to be 
 tljought of a public prosecutor, who 
 was contented with Setting up a prima 
 facie case of charge against the first 
 subject in the realm, at the same time 
 knowing, or having the means of 
 knowing, that that prima facie case 
 was capable of being de-iiroyed by the 
 piearest evidence? What was to be 
 ^aid of that progecutor if he de- 
 
 clined to make the necessary inquirkg. 
 or, perhaps, kept the evidence in hit 
 pocket, leaving a defendant to take his 
 chance whether he could not by other 
 means establish his innocence. I know 
 not, my lords, with what face the other 
 side can call upon us for additional 
 witnesses, when the prosecutors hav« 
 been so abstemious. At least this is 
 new in the history of English justice; 
 it is quite new that a case of belief and 
 suspicion, extorted on cross-examina- 
 tion, should be tortured into the in- 
 ference of guilt, when that belief and 
 suspicion are capable of being removed 
 in the first instance. Why have not th« 
 charges against the queen been brought 
 to the test of complete investigation, 
 if t\ie prosecutor intends honestly ta 
 perform his duty. I entreat the hous« 
 to look at the effect of this proceeding 
 iu the present case. The queen was 
 compelled to take her chance iu every 
 endeavour to refute the accusations^ 
 the substance of which has been for 
 years collectiMg ; she must take her 
 ciiance as to the frailty of memory, 
 after the lapse of so long a period ; 
 as to the weakness of the nerves of 
 witnesses, for the (irst time brought 
 before an assembly like the present ; 
 as to the delusion of memory, and the 
 faintness of the impression of passing; 
 events, and as to the petty triumphs 
 produced on every occasion where a 
 witness might make aH accidental slip, 
 and thus cast a momentary shade over 
 the vc.raciiy of his statement. Her ma- 
 jesty, however, has gone much further 
 than this ; she has shewn, not only 
 that the witnesses, taken as indivi- 
 duals, have not spoken the truth, but 
 that such practices have been era- 
 ployed for collecting the evidence, 
 such bribes have been offered, and such 
 despicable means resorted to^ as per- 
 haps weie never before disclosed in the 
 historv of English justice. The arti- 
 fice of Dr. Crook had not been dis- 
 covered till many years afterwards; 
 nor was it known how much the value 
 of the tii'inions he had obtained was 
 dimini bed by the fact that he had pur- 
 chased them. What was to be thought 
 of these discarded servants, these do- 
 mestic traitors, who voluntarily offered 
 themselves as witnesses against the 
 life and character of their benefac- 
 tress, and who for selfish purposes, 
 appeared against her to destroy that 
 reputation on which they had pre- 
 viously passed the highest eacomiuinr;' 
 
392 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 There is one topic, my lords, on which 
 it is impossible for me not to cuminent. 
 We have been told that the conduct of 
 her majesty furnishes an inference in 
 support of the cliarges in the i-reamble. 
 I am ready that the defence'shall stand 
 or fall by that test ; asid I a;.k, whether ' 
 it is possible for a person so dep.raved, j 
 iu the first place, to have turned away ! 
 all her servants, at the montent when 
 they had possessed themselves of the 
 most important and damnin^j secrt'is, 
 and afterwards to have proceeded in 
 that low attachment, that ilisi^usiin^' 
 debauchery with an individual who had 
 been elevated for the most crimisial 
 purposes, in defiance of ail the piin- 
 ciples with which human nature was 
 ever acquainted ? It is one of the con- 
 sequences of such an infatuation tl\at ii 
 destroys all worldly considerations — 
 
 <* Not CcBsar's empress would I deign 
 to prove." 
 
 And, if so, would her majesty not 1 ave 
 lieen willing- to hide her head in any 
 part of the continent, in the enjoyment 
 of that Inxuiious profusion, in whicli she 
 had been templed, by offers from this 
 country, to continue even with great 
 splendour? Would she not have been 
 most anxious to retire to Pefaro, or to 
 the lake of Como, and there to expend 
 upon her favourite the vast income to be 
 appropriated to her use ? Is it possible 
 to believe, that, after the loss of all that 
 makes life dear, and character valuable 
 • — after vice and profjig-acy had become 
 her daily habits — that her majesty 
 would have sprnng- to this country, irri- 
 tated and stnng- by nothing- biittliis de- 
 testable accusation? I.ooU, my lords, at 
 the conduct of lier naujeless and unseen 
 prosecutor, and tlien at the conduct of 
 my illustrious client. For a series of 
 years she has l>een the object of unceas- 
 ing- persecution. The death of iicronly 
 daughter was immoiliately followed by 
 this frightful ccnspirucy. The decease 
 of her last renjiuning- protector, who.se 
 life, while it was ])rolnnged, was still a 
 protection, though his affection could no 
 longer bo displayed, succeeded not long- 
 afterwards. It was announced to her, 
 not in the language of kind res])pct, or 
 even of deceut condolence, but in a 
 shape which forestalled the decision of 
 parliament upui this great queslifai. 
 Cardinal Gonsalvi was the inst un;ent of 
 strippiiig her of her rank, and of de- 
 priving- her of those honours to which her 
 station in society laid claim. Her titi<'. 
 
 as piiiicess Caroline of England wn* 
 sfati-d ill the face of her passport ; <ind 
 the first transaction of this now reign,' 
 in which even traitors were s['ared and 
 felons pardoned by a lavish exertion of 
 the royal prerogative of jnercy, was the 
 most illegal and unchristian act yet re- 
 corded in the annals of the British mo- 
 narchy. To the qtieen it was no now 
 reign of peace and amnesty, but the 
 commencement of a prosecution in which 
 malignity and falsehood were united for 
 her destruction Ifer name was excluded 
 from lite liturgy; but when it was for- 
 bidden tiiat tlie prayers of tlte people 
 should be oiiered up for her, their hearts 
 made a full compensation for that odious 
 exercise of unjust authority. Under such 
 circumstances, what shall we siiy to the 
 bill before the house? , As a divorce hill 
 it exists no more; the mere fact that the 
 crime imputed was committed six years 
 ago, dismisses it with contempt; and the 
 fact of the letti^r of licence, written so 
 recently after tlie mnrriage ceremony 
 was performed, is of itself an answer 
 ■ to any claim on the part of the husband. 
 But it is a bill of pains atul penalties — a 
 bill of degradatiosi, dethronement, and 
 disgrace; and, if your lordships shall 
 determine to proceed against this perse- 
 cuted and injijied woma ), I can only 
 say thai il is your pleasure to do so. But 
 sure I am that your honor as peers, your 
 justice as judges, and your feeling as 
 men, will compel you to take | art with 
 the oppressed, instead of giving the 
 victory to the oppressor. 1 wasab^iUt 
 to observe that there were certain in- 
 dividur.ls, who had not been called as 
 wittie?se>— simply for this reason—- 
 that our ca>;e is already proved, and . 
 thai we do not think it decent, or con- 
 sistent with the princi|>les of justice to 
 overload the minutes already so un- 
 wieid}, In' admitting that we are bt)und 
 to go a single slep further. We have 
 often heard of challenges and defi- 
 ance> ; v^ e h \ve been told that Beigami 
 tniglit be ca'k'd to the bar, to s ale tliat 
 the whulo I i'.arge was a fiction ; but 
 this is osu' u!" liie unparalleled circum- 
 stances if tiiia extraordinary case. 
 From the beginning t;f the world no 
 insiance is to Le f>.und where an in- 
 dividual ciiarged with adultery has beeu 
 called to disprove it. Yet, for the first 
 lime, we are to be compelled to puthim 
 to his oath ! The answer is iu a word 
 —there is eilher a case against us, or 
 there is no case; if there is no case, 
 there is no occasion ,for us to call a 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEPJ. 
 
 398. 
 
 witnes«! ; and if there be a case, no man 
 wimld believe tlie supposed adulterer, 
 when lie was | ut forward to deny the 
 fact. On this subject the nicest casu- 
 ists mifhi perhaps dispute, with a pros- 
 pect of success, on either side of the 
 proposition; but I lirmly believe that 
 the feeliiijjs of m.iukiiid would justly 
 triumph uv^r the strictness of morality, 
 and that a witness so situated would be 
 held more excusable, to deny upon his 
 oath so dear a confidence, than to 
 betray th*^ partner of his gnilt. Even 
 peijiiry would bethought a venial crime, 
 Compared with the exj>osure of the 
 victim of his adultery. — Surely, for the 
 buke of dra^jjina: forward stuli a wit- 
 ness, the priucipit s of our nature and 
 of the heart of man, are not to he re- 
 pt^aled fven upon this occasion, to 
 wiiitii so many principles have been 
 ni.ide the sicriUcc. Recollect, my lord^, 
 t'-at tl'.is is a criminal prosecution of 
 ihe l.ighest kind, and requiring the 
 clearest and 5t longest evidence — evi- 
 dence collected and nmnufactuied 
 duiiiigsix jt'ars of unceasing vigilance 
 and unremiliing persecuiion. VV ti have 
 heard of thi; distinction of a queen 
 of grace and favor, and a queen of 
 rigiit and law : hut her majesty has 
 been iMi'or'it, by bitter experience, the 
 wide diifcrence between a husband of 
 tilfeciioo and guardianship, and a hus- 
 band ()f jealousy and persecution! 
 After all ties divine J.nd human, have 
 bf'en broken upon his part, he still 
 tiMoks' it p<)ssible to exact, from the 
 •'•iienated and injured object before 
 you, the most scrupulous attention, not 
 0!ily to the suhstaitial virtues of her 
 sex, but to the most insignificant ap 
 pearances of feminine decorum. I et 
 •le a^k vou, then, what is it that can 
 justify you in passing .-ucli a bill? 
 ' Without looking t<» the priiiciple, (for 
 your lordbhips know that 1 am not at 
 liberty to do so, and 1 only advert to it 
 that I may not be supposed to wave any 
 obiection.) 1 say that there is not one 
 page of evidence in (his whole volume 
 to warrant you in giving it your sane- 
 tiou* Tl)ero is not a single piece of 
 evidenre proceeding from aiiy respecta- 
 ble quarter which has not been an- 
 swered or explained, and the inventors 
 of Ihe most minute fabrications have 
 been followed wilii success through 
 I many of their windings and minute 
 f rao:ifieations. I know that rumours are 
 abroad of the most vague, but, at the 
 i>aine tinje, of the mofct injurious cba- 
 
 50 
 
 racter ; I have heard them, even at thd 
 very moment we were defending her 
 majesty against charge?, which, cem-^ 
 pared with the rumours, are clear, 
 comprehensible, and tangible. We 
 have heard, and hear daily, with alarm, 
 that there are persons, and these not of 
 the lowest condition, and not confined 
 to individuals connected with the public 
 press — not even excluded from your 
 augustassemhly — who are industriously 
 ciiculating the most odious and atro-^ 
 cious calumnies against her majesty, 
 (.'an tl.is fact be? and yet can we live 
 in the world, in these times, and not 
 know it to he a fact ? We know, that 
 if a juryman, upon such an occasion, 
 should be found to possess any know* 
 ledge on the subject of inquiry, we 
 should have a right to call him to the 
 bar ,as a witness. *' Come forward." 
 we might say, and let us confront yea 
 with our evidence : let us see whether 
 no explanation can be given of the fact 
 you assert, and no refutation effectually 
 applied." }3nt to any man who could 
 even he suspected of so base a practice 
 as whispering calumnies to judges, 
 distilling leperous venom into the ear 
 of jurors, the queen might well exclaim, 
 " Come forth, thou slanderer; and let 
 me see thy face! If thou wouldest equal 
 the respectability even of an Italiaa 
 witness, came forth and depose In opea 
 court. A> thou art, thou art worse 
 than an Italian assassin, because while 
 I am boldly and manfully meeting my 
 accusers, thou art planting a dagger 
 unseen in my bosom, and converting 
 thy poisoned stiletto into the semblance 
 of the sword of justice.'* I vrould fain 
 say, my lords, that it is utterly impos- 
 sible that this can be true ; but I can- 
 not say it, because the fact stares me ia 
 the face; 1 read it even in the public 
 papers, and had I not known of its ex- 
 istence in the debasement of human 
 nature, I would have held it impossible 
 that any one, with the heart of a man, 
 or with tUo honor of a peer, should so 
 debase his heart and degrade his honor? 
 I would charge biiu as a Judge — I would 
 impeach him as a judge ; and, if it were 
 po.s&ihie for the blood royal of England 
 to descend to a course so disgraceful, I 
 sliould fearlessly assert, that it was far 
 more jut that such conduct should de- 
 prve hitn of his right to succession, 
 than (hat all the facts alleged again»t 
 her majesty, even if true to the last 
 letter of (he charge, should warrant 
 your lord<4hips in passing this bill of dc>r 
 
394 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 gradation and divorce. I well know 
 that there are persons, to whom, under 
 tlie circumstances, I think it right lo 
 allude, who have had an opportunity 
 of reading a vast variety of depositions 
 against the conduct of t!ie queen. To 
 those noble individuals I may distinctly 
 say, "Yon, at all events, must vole for 
 an acquittal. I know notliing of the 
 facts brought before your secret com- 
 mittee, but 1 know (hat it is impossible 
 for any rational or honorable man to 
 have presented such a case as has been 
 proved at the bar, as a ground for de- 
 grading and dethroning ihe majesty of 
 England." The facts proved before 
 that committee must have been of a 
 more grave, more difgusiing, and more 
 infamous description, and whether they 
 have been proved, or whether the wit- 
 nesses publicly examined, have not 
 dared to swear up to their original de- 
 positions, I am confident that the com 
 mitfee never meant it to go forfhj that 
 a case of key-holes and chamber-pots, 
 fcut of notorious and undeniaLile guilt, 
 ought to be the ground-work of this 
 public prosecution. Then, 1 ask your 
 lordships, has that case been made out ? 
 Is there any man, who can read the 
 evidence brought against the queen 
 without a perfect conviction that she 
 has been most malignantly traduced ? 
 ^Vhat the boatmen on the LaJce of Como 
 may have said to those who were 
 gaping wide for i-lander, I know not i 
 what reports may have been circulated 
 T)y her enemies, I know not; what the 
 result would have been, had the facts 
 stated been established, 1 know not ; 
 but T do know, that they have not been 
 proved — that they are false, calumnious 
 and detestable. Nay, I say one word 
 more to your lordships — I know that a 
 supposition prevails, that a spirit has 
 gone abroad, dangerous to (he consti- 
 tution and government. I have heard 
 \jt said, that a spirit of mischief was 
 actively at work among the friends of 
 'her majesty : but the same person who 
 uttered that memorable expression, 
 in a few weeks was obliged to admit 
 that it was false, because the truth 
 could not be concealed, that the whole 
 of the generous population of England 
 had enlisted themselves with ardour on 
 the side of the innocent and the in- 
 jured. At the same time, it is possible 
 that both may be true; the sound and 
 middling classes of society may feci 
 acutely for the situation of her ma- 
 ;eit|'; and there may be, also, some 
 
 apostles of mischief lurking in a cor^ 
 ner, meditating a blow at the con- 
 fetilution, and ready to avail Ihemselvca- 
 of any opportunity. for open violence. 
 If that be so, the generous sympalli.7 
 (o\\hich J have alluded would be ag- 
 gravated l>y a verdici ot guilty ; wnue 
 those mischievous and disaffected men 
 wo'.ild deprecate nothing half so 
 much as to see your lordships, in the 
 face of (he power of the crown, 
 veutming to pronctunce a verdict of 
 ac(juittal for a defendant so prosecuted. 
 I trust your lordships v\ill not allow 
 the idea of having fear imputed to you 
 to divert you from the strait course of 
 your duly ; it would be the worst of 
 injustice lu tlie afcused, ami the worst 
 of cowardice in yourselves. I say, 
 therefore, if your own minds are satis- 
 fied that all that has been proved has 
 been scattered *' like dew-cirops from 
 (he lion's mane," you will uever holth 
 yourselves justified in pronoHncing a 
 verdict contrary to the evidence, be- 
 cause your conduct njay be iminued ii> 
 the diead of a njub, or to u?e the 
 jargon of the day, which I detesi, 
 the api)rehension of a ra<lical attack.. 
 You have but one course to pur-i>e, 
 and that course is strait f(;rwaid — it 
 is to acquit her majesty at once of those 
 odious charges. We may truly say, 
 that as there ne^er was such a trial, #> 
 there nerer existed such means of ac- 
 cusation. Before 1 conclude, 1 mi st 
 be permitted to say, ihat during tbe 
 whole «tf this proceeding (though per- 
 sonally 1 have every reast)U to thatik 
 the house for its kiudi'it>s and iiidu!- 
 gence) the highest gratihcaiion result- 
 ing to ray mind has been, that with 
 my learned friend I have been joined 
 upon ibis great occasion. We have 
 fought tlje battles <J morality, Christia- 
 nity, and civilized society, throughout 
 the world ; and, in the language of 
 the dyiug warrior, 1 may say : 
 
 •* In tiiis glorious and well fougUten 
 field 
 We kept together iu our chivalry.'* 
 
 While he was achieving the immortal 
 victory, the - illustrious triumphi and 
 protecting innoceoce and truth, by the 
 adamantine shield of his prodigious 
 eloquence, it has been my lot to dis- 
 charge otilya few ran«l6m arrows at 
 the drfeate*! champions of this di<«- 
 gracel>:l cause. The lioiise will l^- 
 lieve me when I say, that 1 wituesse«i 
 the disjday of his surprising faculries 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN* 
 
 395 
 
 MMh no other feeling^ than a sincere 
 gratification that the triumph was com- 
 j'lete : and, admiration and deliglit, 
 that the victory of the queeu was at- 
 «complishc(l. This is an inquiry, my 
 lords, unprecedented in the history of 
 the WDrid : tiie dowii-sittinoj and up- 
 risin;i: of this illustrious lady have been 
 sedulously and anxiously watched : 
 she tittered no word that had not to 
 pass thr()ug;ii this severe ordeal. Her 
 daily looks have been remarked, and 
 scarcely even ht;r thoughts esca]'ed 
 the unparalleled and disgraceful assi- 
 duity of her malignant enemies. It is 
 an inquisition, also, of a most soleaiu 
 kind. I know noihing in the whole 
 race of human atFair*, nothing in the 
 whole view of eternity, which can even 
 remotely resemble it ; but the great 
 day when the secrets of all hearts shall 
 ba disclosed ! 
 
 "He wlio the sword of Heaven will 
 bear 
 Should be as holy as severe I" 
 
 And if your lordships have been fur- 
 nished with powers, wliiih 1 might 
 almost say scarcely Omniscience itself 
 possesses, to arrive at the secrets of 
 this female, you will think that it is 
 your duly to imitate the justice, beue- 
 •ficence, and wisdom ot" that benignant 
 Being, who., not in a case like this, 
 where innocence is manifest, but when 
 {jnill was detected, and vice revealed, 
 said, '* If no accuser can couie forward 
 to condemn thee, neither do I con- 
 demn thee': g(), and sin no mure." 
 
 A pause oi some moments occurred 
 after Mr. Denman had concluded ; 
 and the Ivtrl of Liverpool had risen to 
 move the a<lj<uirnment, when 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM advanced to the 
 V)ar, and observed, that although the 
 fiumming up of the case of the queen 
 was now closed, if the other side in- 
 teniled to reply by more than one 
 counsel, he should wish to take till 
 to-morrow ujoruingto consider whether 
 he would not retjuest the house to 
 permit Dr. Lushington also to ad- 
 dress it. 
 
 The ATTORNEY- GENERAL an- 
 swered, that it was undoubtedly his 
 desire and intention to avail himself of 
 the assistance of, his learned friend, 
 the Solicitor-General. Tliis privilege 
 had been allowed ou former occasions, 
 and particularly to the counsel for 
 4he (|ueen, when two of them were 
 allowed to open their case. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR said, 
 that the rule, subject to any re-consi- 
 deration, was, that the house would 
 bear two counsel on each side, and, in 
 his opinion, either party, vvaving the 
 privilege^ did not deprive the other of 
 j the right to exercise it. 
 
 Mr. BROUGHAM added, that he 
 did not intend to wave his claim, and 
 ! should therefore request the assistance 
 I of his friend, Dr. Lushington, to- 
 morrow morning. Adjourned at four 
 o'clock. 
 
 THURSDAY, October 26. 
 
 At the meeting of the house this 
 morning. 
 
 Dr. LUSHINGTON proceeded to 
 address their lordships. He com- 
 menced by stating, that if he had been 
 left to the free exercise of his own dis- 
 cretion on the present occasion, he 
 should certainly decline offering any 
 observations to their loi dships, because 
 he felt conscious that it was utterly 
 impossible for his humble exertions to 
 add any thing to the great and splendid 
 address of his learned friend (Mr. Den- 
 man) who had preceded him. He 
 now, however, addressed their lord- 
 ships by the desire of his learned coad- 
 jutors, and he felt a consolation under 
 his conscious inability to the task, 
 that her majesty's defence rested on a 
 basis so solid that the observations 
 even of an unskilful advocate could 
 scarcely weaken it. In surveying this 
 case, and the charges on which it was 
 founded, some observations occurred 
 to his mind which he would shortly 
 1 ly before the house. The first was 
 the age of the royal accused. Was 
 ever an instance known in the annals 
 of accusations of this kind, that the 
 person against whom the charge was 
 made was of the age (>f 50 ? No : he 
 would defy any one to cite a precedent 
 so preposterous or ridiculous. But 
 who ever imagined a case like the pre- 
 sent ? In addition to the circuihstauce 
 of the age of the accused, there was 
 here that of a husband, who had been 
 for twenty-four years separated from 
 his wife ; separated, not by any desire 
 on her part, but by his own caprice, by 
 ^ his own act and choice — not in conse- 
 (|ufcuce of any misconduct of that wife, 
 but by his pursuit of some wayward 
 indulgence— some capricious lancy. 
 In this way had been broken, for sell- 
 gratificatiou, thos^ bonds which thd 
 
396 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 laws of God and man had formed. 
 How, then, did the case stand ? Were 
 Lis majesty a simple subjeci, was there 
 a man in the wurld who would gay 
 that he was entitled to any considera- 
 tion whatever in an application for 
 divorce — that it was possible he could 
 have an injury founded on such a com- 
 plaint, fiT which he could claim re- 
 dress ? As a husband, then, the kinj^ 
 had no right to seek redress. But 
 then it was said that this application 
 was not in the name ol the king, and 
 that the law in the case of a subject 
 was not applicable lo the sovereign. 
 Let, however, no one presume to say 
 that he is emancipaied from obedience 
 to the laws of God ; for that asseriion, 
 of whomsoever it be made, was founded 
 in untruth and falsehood. It was aUo 
 said that rank and station in the wife 
 required a more rig:id observance of 
 duties than in the Iju^band ; hut was 
 there any duty which was not reci- 
 procal ? Was it not so with respect to 
 matrimouiul rights.' And was it to be 
 said that there was one law for women 
 and another for men ? or J id supe- 
 riority of rank make the en^a^einent 
 taken at the altar of God less binding.' 
 Was the private individual to be told 
 - that there was «)ne divine law for him, 
 and another for thesceptered monarch.' 
 Wijat was the plighted troth of the 
 husband — what the promise made at 
 the altar? To love and to comfort. 
 But how was that promise observed? 
 Where was the love? where the com- 
 fort ? Where should he look for the 
 one or the other? The comfort:-?— 
 ■what traces were there of it? If he 
 went back to 1806, was it to be found 
 there? or must he look for it in 1813, 
 at that period of cruel interference, 
 when the intercourse between the 
 mother and the daughter was jiro- 
 hibiied ? Was it to be souijht for at 
 the period when the mother was exiled 
 to a foreign land ? No : there ii did 
 not exist; for whereyer she went the 
 spirit of oersecutiou followed her. It 
 was inconceivable that a wife thns 
 deserted, thus persecuted, should now 
 be told that she has been unmindfui of 
 her duty, whilst the husband, who 
 was pledged to protect her, had al- 
 lowed her to pivss through the world 
 without a friend to guard her honour. 
 He regret ed the discussion of these 
 ^ topics. He knew well that, when the 
 ^ S^Cts of kings were brought before the 
 ' public, there were iudividuals who 
 
 dwelt with triumphant satisfaction on 
 the exposure. No man could feel the 
 difficulty of his <>iii:aiion more than he 
 did, when called upon, in the per- 
 formance of a solemn duty, lo dwell 
 upmi such painful considerations ; but 
 he owed it to himself and to his client 
 to speak out boldly. There were in- 
 dividuals without number, always 
 anxious to see the failings of kings, 
 that they mi^ht turn them into de- 
 rision. He would, therefore, say as 
 little as possible upcju this ungrateful 
 subject. It was aUnosl needless to 
 follow it through all iis beatings; but 
 if he were in one of tliose courts where 
 cases of this kind are usually decided, 
 what should he say to the husband 
 w'lio, insensible of his own honour, 
 alhtwi his wife for a series of years, to 
 live unprotected, and then to offer her 
 fifty th'tusand pounds a year to live 
 abroad, knowing, as he said, that she 
 is in a course of adultery, but without 
 giving one diiectiou that the adulterous 
 inteicourse should cease before she 
 enjoys the large inconte proffered to 
 her ? What would he say to an indi- 
 vidual St) acting towards his wife ; who 
 said to her, not iu the language of 
 pardon and admonition, which his 
 learned friend had repeated, ** Go, and 
 sin no more," — but ♦'Go, and indulge 
 your aj)petites, continue your adul- 
 terous intercourse, and you shall be 
 fiunished with ample means for living 
 in splendour with your paramour 1" 
 He was happy thai he was ni»t under 
 the necessity of introducing another 
 topic. He was glad to stale that 
 in this case, he was not called 
 upon by any consideration of duty 
 towards his illusirions client, to say 
 one word by way of recrimination; he 
 thanked God, and the wisdom of his 
 learned colleagues, who had so advised 
 her majesty, that .the case unon which 
 they built their hopes of acq.iittal was 
 one of perlect innocence, taid that, by 
 av( iding recrimination, he shoidd save 
 the house and the country from all its 
 consequences. Their lordships could 
 not, unless fully prepared to violate 
 the laws of God and man, declare 
 against his client. Thai venerable 
 bench of bishops, who formed part of 
 the judges, could not, without violating 
 the holy tenetsof that Gospel which they 
 preached and inculcated, pronounce 
 against the wife of their sovereign. 
 The laws of God and of the country 
 were upon her side, and he was sure 
 
DRFENCE OF TMK QITEFN. 
 
 897 
 
 that it was not there that thoy wonhl 
 he violated. 
 
 The learned counsel then proceeded 
 to lake a luminous and coiupreheiiive 
 view c)t the whole of ilie evidence for 
 and ai^ainst her i\»ajesty, applying him- 
 self partiiularly to those topics which 
 iikio^lit have escaped Mr. Denman,and 
 arijuii.g, ill the clearest and uioit con- 
 rliisive niaimei , that the only correct 
 inference to he drawn trwm the whole 
 was the innocence uf his illustrious 
 client. He conclmled by sayinjj, that 
 he left the honour and character of the 
 queen is» the hands of the house ; — 
 ujih the most perfect confidence he 
 left her, not to the mercy, but to the 
 justice i)f tlieir lordsliips. 
 
 Earl GIIEY withdrew his motion for 
 the production of the depositions taken 
 before the Milan Coramissiuii.:— Ad- 
 journed. 
 
 FRIDAY, October 27. 
 
 THE ATTOKNEY-GENERAL'S 
 REPLY. 
 
 After the Louse had heen called over, 
 counsel were called in, and at half 
 pan ten the ATTORNEY-GENHRAL 
 rose. He commenced by statiufj, thai 
 he feared, considerinji the iuiforiant 
 duty he had to discharge before their 
 lordships, that he should have oc- 
 casion to make a large demand upon 
 their time ami patience, a demand 
 which it was the more painful for him 
 to be compelled to make, when he 
 considered how largely their time had 
 been already occupied liuring the pro- 
 ceedings upon this important rase, and 
 more particularly during the three last 
 da>s, which where wholly tilled hy the 
 addresses of his learned friends t»ppo- 
 siteCMcssrs. Deuman pnd Dr. Lushing- 
 ton). He begged leave, in the first 
 place, to call their lordshij)s attention 
 to one t(«pic upon which declamati(.n 
 had been exhausted by her majesty's 
 counsel — he meant the disadvantages 
 under which her majesty's case was 
 jdaced, by the refusal of their lordships 
 to grant her a list of witnesses, or a 
 6pecificatiou of the charges against her. 
 There was an end to these complaints 
 when their lordships, after the case for 
 the bill was closed, granted her majesty 
 whatever time she thought proper to ask 
 for the preparation and arrangement of 
 her defence—when his inajest3''8 go- 
 
 I vrrnmenl placed at licr dis|)Osal unli- 
 I niitt'd funds and g anted to her all the 
 laciliti-s which they had it in their 
 power to oll't r. He tiusted, however, 
 that the ndjoumment in thia case, and 
 the iiucrmption between the time of the 
 evidence for the prosecution and that 
 for the defence, ^^ould never be drawn 
 into a future precedent, for such a 
 course was likely to impt^de the ends 
 of justice. His learned friends oppo- 
 site had said that witnesses in abun- 
 d^mce could be had in Italy for any 
 purpose. If that assertion were true, 
 then they had had time en(uigh to carry 
 into elfect any arrangements they 
 pleased for answering the prosecution. 
 He lioped, however, there was now an 
 end to the complaints of her mjijesty's 
 counsel, respecting any disadvantajjes to 
 which they thought they weie exposed. 
 He had not the power, and if he had the 
 power ie should feel it Lis duly not to 
 exercise it on the present occasion, to 
 appeal to their lor'lships' passions, and 
 to excite Iheir feelings at the expense 
 of their jndginei.t. That appeal had 
 heen open for his lea; ned friends, and 
 they had availed themselves of it — and 
 all that brilliant declamation, all that 
 happy illustration, sometime^ even of a 
 moral character, could effect, had by 
 them be^n called into requisition. 
 ITpnn him was imposed the severer, btit 
 at the same time the more congenial 
 task of examining the evidence as to 
 the facts which had been alleged — 
 upon which evidence, and upon which 
 facts their lordships would have to 
 decide, w ithout any regard to the other 
 topics which had been so unsparingly 
 introduced in the course of this case. 
 In tlie discussion of this case, he felt 
 himself entitled to avail himself of the 
 ndmissions of his learned friend on the 
 other side. When he said he would 
 thus avail himself, he did not mean to 
 catch at acy accidental slip which they 
 might have made ; that which they did 
 say, however, in the outset of their 
 aodre 8 was, *' That if their lordships 
 believed the witnesses who had been 
 brought to support this bill, and if they 
 thought the preamble had been fairly, 
 clearly, and satisfactorily proved, then 
 let the bill pass." This was all heasked, 
 and upon this principle alone did he 
 anticipate that their lordships would 
 concur with him in thinking that the 
 whole of the charges against her ma- 
 jesty had been completely established. 
 
398 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN, 
 
 He cr»lle*l npoo tin »r lordsljijjs on this 
 occasiitu, not lo look lo I be speecht's 
 wiiici) Juid Ue'u made, but (o (he ;k!s 
 which had been proved. And urre he 
 could not help observing; how far shott 
 liis learned i'r endi had falh n from thai 
 trinu.pisaiit rate by wlikb they had 
 Slated they >\oid(J have been enabled 
 to prove her majeslv's innocoDce. He 
 ca'led iipo.i their Itrdships- a];,o to oi)- 
 scrve how far the evidence which had 
 been ut!Vr<d by them had contradicted 
 the evidtuc- which had been adduced 
 in support of the bill. In examining- 
 this ease liis learned friends had had 
 recourse to the most artful and (he 
 most jiidiciotJS mode of considering the 
 evidence which had been brought 
 agaiiisi them. They took care U) cull 
 out insulated facts; but entirely to 
 keep from their lordships' vievy the 
 jrenernl and leading features of the 
 CfivSe. l^eforc he proceeded further, 
 he would call to their lordships' recol- 
 lection those leading; circumstances 
 which wrre admitted as uncontra- 
 dicted iu this cae. The first was, that 
 the person, whose name had been so 
 I'leqnenily mentioned in the course of 
 the present proceedins:, Bcrgatwi, had 
 Vjeen tii"ken into her majesty's suite as 
 a menial servajit at Milan, in the month 
 ol' Octoljer, 181-1; — that within a few 
 shovt niOjUhs, that man, without any 
 leasondble cause, without any pretence 
 wiiatcver, except as proceeding: from 
 that licentious intercourse, which he 
 trusted he should be enabled to satisfy 
 their ((>rdshij)S, beyond all doubt, had 
 existed beiween her royal highness and 
 him, had been advanced from the 
 menial situation which he held at 
 Naples to thai (.f chamberlain to her 
 ni.ijesty. 'i li. y would find further, 
 tbat ^^ilhi^ a short period, and whilst 
 he still remained as courier, he had 
 bcf^xi aiimiited io dire at her ma- 
 jesty'* tab c; that shortly ai'ter he had 
 been reinove«l from that situation, he 
 was loaded with \ionors and titles, 
 which, it was in vain to say, were pr*:- 
 cur«.d otherwise than tbroui»h tlie means 
 of her niajesly. Their Kirdships vvouM 
 then find t is person in tlie habit <f 
 most familiar intenonrse with her ma 
 jesly, living with her ujxio terms of the 
 j^rcjitest intiijiacy, and conthinin:^ uiih 
 Iver ill ijiat character Aip to tiie pprirnl 
 of her arivcil on the opposite shores ; 
 and tlien he was not dismii>sed. but, on 
 ro<iiin^ frou) her j/iajcsty on that oe- 
 castou, went it) reside at a seat 
 
 which had been purcb.ifed for hrtn 
 near Milan. 'rhe>e facis had been 
 admitted by his learned trieuds, and he 
 submitted they ought never ro be out of 
 their lordships' consideration through- 
 out the whole of this ease. He en- 
 treated their lordships not to consider 
 either the ease of Naples, or of the po- 
 laere, or any other ease distinctly by 
 itself, as an insulated case, but to take 
 all the cireum-lanees irto their serious 
 consideration ; and, viewing; the one as 
 j connected with the other, to draw that 
 j eonclusion, which, as a whole, the case 
 j seemed fairly to warrant. He would 
 i now proceed to examine the evidence 
 ! in detail in the order of tinne to which 
 { it relerred — an examination which, 
 however tedious, was yet necessary to 
 j form a conclusion upon this case, lier- 
 ; garni having been hired as a courier at 
 ! iMilan, proceeded in that character to 
 ! Naples, where her majesty arrived in 
 ' the month of Novemb r. At Naples 
 there was an abundance of evidence, 
 by which the preamble of this bill has 
 been attempted to be proved. In con- 
 sidering this case, his learned friends 
 did not consider it as it stood upo:; the 
 evidence, but were attempting to con- 
 trast that evidence with the opening 
 which he. bad the honour of making to 
 their lordships, as if their lordships* 
 opinion were to be founded on the state- 
 ment of counsel, rather than the facts 
 which were in proof before them. His 
 learned friends had had too much ex- 
 perience in courts of justice to believe, 
 that either the opinion ol the judge or 
 of the jury wi.sio be formed from such 
 a statement, — and they know full well, 
 that the judge, in suniuiing up the case, 
 invariably told the jury they were to 
 consider the case before them, not with 
 i reference to the opening of counsel, 
 I but to the facts whiv h had been proved. 
 I If this rule were to prevail, however, 
 I he would shew that bis learned friends 
 ! themselves had not ventured to prove 
 many facts which they had opened to 
 their loidships He ehrrged them with 
 having opened evidence which they 
 ; afterwards dared not lo produce. In 
 i the case of Naples— what were the 
 proofs there ? Here the learned couu- 
 sel recapitulated the evitteuee of De 
 j Alonf, as to the occurrences on the 
 j niiiht of her majesty's visit to the opera 
 and denied th t that statement had 
 been in any material degree contra- 
 dicted. De Mont, speaking of the tiiue 
 at which her royal highness had r^ 
 
DEFKNCE OF THR QUEE?f. 
 
 ^D9 
 
 turned from ttic opera, Imd said it ap- i it was a Kind of key-stone, which once 
 i<f*i^re.d to her to he caHv. Wl.at Sir i out down or removed, caused the wl;ok 
 W. (iell and Mr. Craven Lad proved on ' rase to fall in ])ieres. The learned 
 this snhjert, estahlished no contradie 1 counsel denied tins proposition; bc- 
 tion ofDe Mont. l)e Mont, however, cause, strikins: ])e Mont's evidence 
 did not swear positively that she came , '"'•'!],", ^^^^' ♦^''"'■"^'\''M*;^_,„"'^^^:„^1',;* 
 home earlv ; she only sjioke to htr be- 
 
 lief on the subject ; and, as far as her 
 recollecti<»n sevv^-d her, she t'lonojht 
 her royal hi^hne^s ramc !»i>me early. 
 Whethei- she*^ reiurnod early or late, 
 however, it tlid not sj;i,iiiry ; for the 
 fact was clearly proved, that she dis- 
 missed her aitendanis Then with 
 re-pect to her majesty not jjetting: up 
 so early the folluwin;^ morning:, Sicard 
 was called t<» contradict le Mont in 
 thia paniculi.r, hut totally failed. In 
 luiothi^r jiartof the cae, the v.eakness 
 of the queen's defence was manifestly 
 cvinicd. }>e Mont, when sp akin^ of 
 the comparison between the travelling 
 larir<} bed fn the same room. 
 
 ulTiolcnt rcm::ined clearly to rsmb- 
 lish fire char<:-e of adultery, ft did not 
 eitvnify whether the adultery com- 
 nienced that ni<cht or not, because 
 there were ample proofs of a criminal 
 inicroo»ir'-e existing Icn^ before Her- 
 ;;anii had so nmny honours conferred 
 upon liim. Th'^ learned counsel, how- 
 ever, cont' nded that De Mont was not 
 c<)utr dieted. The n^-xt c.ise proved by 
 De Mont, was her meetinsr Berjc'mi 
 in the corridor one iiii^ht. in his shirt, 
 wali.iris; to'.vards her m;ijeFty's room, 
 and the letirned counsel was much sur- 
 prised at the arfrument af Mr. Denman 
 
 „jis pnHjt. He" had contended, that 
 
 I this circumstance was rather calculated 
 
 thi 
 
 bed and t' ^~ , , . • • ., , i , 
 
 swore that ti.e next u.ornuij;- the tra- to excite a suspicion, that an adui- 
 veJlin-- bed appear eilti) have been never 1 terous intercourse hnd taken place be- 
 .vUile the lart^er bed bore j t ween De Mont and Fes:ami. ^^ hat 
 f two persons. Mr. ! were the ciicumstatices stated by De 
 
 laid u\Hiu 
 
 the iinpre.si»m 
 
 Williams had opened, as a contradic- 
 tion to thi^ sialeiuent, that he should 
 o«fll a servant who who went into her 
 royal highness's room after she had re- 
 tired to rest, to shut a window which 
 was <'isturbed by the wind, and she 
 wtK the« actually reposing on this very 
 travelling bed, which, accordin{? to 
 Pe Moiit, appeared the next morning 
 not fo have been slept «)n. \V herr, the 
 learned cotiusel would ask, was that 
 servant? If it were llieronymus, why 
 was he not called ? He was now in the 
 country. i^e was still in the ser 
 
 Mont on that occasion ? She bad stated 
 that, when retirins; from her majesty's 
 room, on op;nin«: the door she saw 
 Berjrami advancing: from the other end 
 of the corridor. Site instantly made 
 her es ape, as she called it, and when 
 she had escaped, she heard the lock of 
 th.e door turn so as to exclude the inker- 
 riiption ot Jiiiy person. i!is learned 
 Irii nds had endeavoured, by observa- 
 tion and arg-ument, to do away the 
 effect of this evidence, but still tUc 
 evidence was too decisive of an adul- 
 terous intercourse bavins: taken place 
 
 called. Did h s learned friends dread 
 tb^ same fntal nervous debility would 
 arach to that servant, that so unfortu- 
 nately a^ricted the unhappy Flynn.' or 
 do they fear that a sudden unaccount- 
 able forsfet fulness might have washed 
 the circumstanr e from his recollection, 
 
 vice of the oueeM, but vet be was ncit i to be shaken. He would next come to 
 
 '■ the case of the masked ball. It was 
 
 I clear that after the queen had appeawd 
 ' for some time in the dress of a Neapo- 
 ; lilan peasant, she retired to a dressiuif- 
 rooin with Herj^ami, where she remained 
 for n<arly three quarters of an hour. 
 She then appeared in the character of 
 if it had ever existed'?' CouVd'anv thing ■ the t.'enius of History, which was agreed 
 be more decisive than this was "of the | on all hands ; and whatever Sir Wil- 
 truth of what the abtised He Mont had ; liam Cell mi-ht think of her dre«s it 
 proved^ Could any thing more stronirly i was certainly one not of the most del»- 
 corroborate her statement, than Mr. , cate description. According to his no- 
 Wiliiams threatening to contradict her tion, her dress reitembled the atturt 
 in this most particular point, and then ' of Mr. Hope's Minerra, or the statue 
 abandoning his threat, not venluring to ; of Curatius in the British Museunp, 
 risk the c-oss -examination which such | which certainly were attired in a turn 
 a witness must undergo. It has been I drapery, the arms being "a^e^j up to 
 said that De Mont's evidence was the 4 th« shoulders; and although Sir WA 
 whoU foundaUon on which the super- ] liam Gell merely distinguished h.sroyia 
 structure of this case depended— «bat mistress as th« GeniU*of History troMto 
 
400 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEX. 
 
 ing Murat's bust, which, hy the aid of 
 a Hash of lightinn«r, he asserted, that 
 his optics were sufficieudy excellent to 
 distiuguisli the dress of the Neapolitan 
 peasant under tliat of History's ('enius! 
 Still he admitted that lier majesty was 
 absent for a ong time— that the cere- 
 mony was one ocrasioning much sus^ 
 ptnse, by the delay of its performance 
 — and the learned counsel contended 
 that the evidence ot DeMont was true, 
 wlien she stated that dclav \^ as occa- 
 sioned by the alteration of her dress in 
 tlie dressing chamber witli Tergami. 
 Mr. Craven said, that he could hardly 
 see the dress, so quick was the cere- 
 mony; and when Sir William C<11 de- 
 scribes her dress as like that of the two 
 statues alluded to, he stated that all the 
 world well knows lh< y were perfectly 
 covered. 'Ihe Attorn' y-Gencial bad 
 not himself seen these statues, as he 
 confessed ; but from the information of 
 others, Ije undtrs^tood it was quite 
 otherwise. K'e understood the arms up 
 to the shoulders were completely' bare, 
 and thfe remainder of the body was 
 merely covered by thin drapery. 1 he 
 evidence of De Mont, then, so far from 
 being contradiced by bir VV. Gell and 
 Mr. Craven, was in fact coi. firmed by 
 their speaking to that delay in the ab- 
 sence of her HJajesty from the room, 
 which was so fully accounted for by 
 De Mont. Ihe next point to which he 
 should call their attention, was htr ma- 
 jesty's visit to the masked ball, at the 
 Theaire of San Carlos. He did not 
 mean to comj>lain of her majesty lav- 
 ing gone to t,uch a place in disguise, 
 but iljat of which he had a right to 
 complain was, the fact proved in evi- 
 d( nee of her having gone f here secretly, 
 in a rainy ntgbt, not in her oun car- 
 riage, but in a hired vehicle, and in 
 compar»y with her chambermaid, De 
 Moni, and her courier J^ergami: and 
 lie would shew that this fact, notwith- 
 standing all that had been said by his 
 learned friends to the contrary, had 
 been clearly proved l>y Dr. Holland. 
 Their lordsvliips were already aware that 
 De Mont had proved this case; she 
 described the nature of the dress, and 
 the maiiuer in which her majesty had 
 gone. Now what had Dr. Holland said 
 on this occasiiyn, when interrogated on 
 , the subject, at page 61 1 i He was asked, 
 ** W ht ther he had ever been at the mas- 
 querade at the '} heatre of San Carlos 
 when her ro>;il highness was there r" 
 ll« answered," 1 was." " Withwiiom 
 
 did her royal highnrss gor-r— I was 
 not aware till the following morning 
 I that her royal highi ess had beeu 
 tlierer" " Did you remain there dur- 
 ing the whole, or nearly the whole, of 
 I the performance ? — Only about au 
 [hour, as far as I can recollect; cer- 
 I taiuly a short time " " Are you to Le 
 j understood that you do not know with 
 whom her royal highness went to the 
 I theaire that evening? — I do not." He 
 j (the Attorney-General) beg^ced leave to 
 i ask, how it had appeared that her royal 
 j highness went on any other oc< asion to 
 I a masked ball at the theatre of -Sau 
 Cailos? No such proof had been given, 
 j and therefore it was clear that she had 
 been there on the occasion stated by 
 the witness De Mont, and that Dr. 
 , i:olland v\ as not jswareof that circum- 
 stance lill the following morning. If 
 their lord>hips had entertaini d any 
 doul)t on this subject, had not Dr. Hol- 
 land removed that dolibl — and if the 
 qr.estion still remained undecided, why 
 wjis not SirWilliam Gell and Mr. Kep- 
 pel Craven examined to the point .^ I or 
 i! e hest of all possble reasons, because 
 they knew nothing on the subject. Her 
 royal highness went but upon one oc- 
 casicn, and then in contpany, not of 
 any of ihe genilemen or ladies oi her 
 <;nite, but with her inferior domestics, 
 De Moni and Bergami ; the latter hav-^ 
 ing bee i in her service but three or fourv 
 months I ^^ hy did she not ch(K)se 
 for her c mpanion Hieronymus, or 
 Sicard, or any other of her servants, 
 who, from long experience, was entitled 
 to her confidence ? Why select a man 
 who, but a few days before, had been 
 a courier, all hough alter his arrival at 
 Na[des he had been raised to the rank 
 of footman ? Could tlieir lordships 
 draw any otlier inferenc<?, than that it 
 was because an adulterous intercf urse 
 had commc tjced between her ro\al 
 highness and this Bergami at Naples, 
 and had been continued from thence 
 till she arrived at St. Omer's. De Mont 
 next stated, in page 255, ihat she had 
 >eeVi Bergami and her royal highness 
 walking arm in arm upon a terrace 
 in the garden j)f her royal highness at 
 Naples. How had this been attempted 
 to be disproved ? By the most extra- 
 ordinary evidence that he had ever 
 heard of. v^ir William Gell and Mr. 
 Craven were called, and the former 
 stated— botli these gentlemen staled, 
 that they had seen her royal highness 
 walking with Bergami iu the garden — 
 
DEFENCE OP THE QUEEN. 
 
 401 
 
 and one of them felt it necessary to 
 caution her from such a practice, be- 
 caus-i " she wa ; surrounded by spies," 
 add ny, however, that he saw nothing 
 improper in her conduct. If there was 
 no injpropriety, where was the neces- 
 sity for this caution, unless there were 
 some suspicion lur - in«f in his mind that 
 the intimacv which subsisted brtween 
 liis royal mistress and Berajarni was of 
 a uature to excite attention? How, too, 
 Avas it that Bero:ami so particularly at- 
 tracted the attention of lord LandafF, 
 unless for the same reason — unless 
 something had come to his own know- 
 ledge respecting the occurrence at the 
 theatre of San Carlos, or from the 
 common rumours which the conduct 
 of her royal highness had excited in the 
 neighliourhood? The learned counsel 
 next adverted to the evidence of Ala- 
 jocchi, applying to the time when Ber- 
 gami was confined to his bed from the 
 kick of a hors»*, an 1 when that witness 
 described the stolen interviews of her 
 royal highness at that time to the room 
 of the invalid. Oi this subject it had 
 been said tliat there was another pas- 
 sage by wbich her royal highness might 
 have obtained access to Berg.imi's room 
 without going through the cabinet in 
 which Maj >cchi was placed. But how 
 did this stand? Was not that other 
 passage the common corridor into 
 which the doors of Dr. Holland, Hiero- 
 nymus, ;ind William Austin, opened ; 
 and was there not a much greater 
 diance of her being observed there 
 than by passing through the room of a 
 man who had been placed in the house 
 by Bergami himself? Whether an aduU 
 terous intercourse took place at that 
 time or not, was immaterial to his case 
 — because no woman of delicacy, who 
 had not had such an intercourse with a 
 man, would have gone and visited him 
 in his bed, and remained shut up with 
 him in his room for a quarter of vn 
 hour. The evidence of Majocchi in 
 this respect was decisive, that an adul- 
 terous intercourse had taken place be- 
 tween her royal highness and Bergami. 
 As to the fact of her royal highne>s 
 having been in the room at the same 
 time with Dr. Holland, it would be 
 recollected that Dr. Holland, who had 
 been called to contradict that fact, had 
 not swotn positively to the couirary, 
 simply saying, that if the circumstance 
 had taken place, it was without his 
 knowledge. From Naples her royal 
 higbiieM went to Civita Vecchia, and 
 
 5* 
 
 from thence to Genoa: and here be 
 Avould call their lordships' attention to 
 the evidence of lady C. Lindsay, with 
 respect to what took place on the jour- 
 ney from Rome to Civita Vecchia. It 
 was said yesterday by Or, Lushington, 
 that all the facts of improper fami- 
 liarity which had been alleged against 
 her majesty had fallen at their feet. 
 To this he would only reply, by refer- 
 ring to the testimony of lady Lindsays 
 as to the manner in which Bergami 
 had ridden up to the carriage of her 
 majesty, and received from her handg 
 a bottle of wine, from which he drank, 
 and afterwards returned the bottle to 
 the carriage. If this were not proof 
 of improper familiarity, he scarcely 
 knew where such familiarity would be 
 said to commence. Such, however,' 
 had been the scene described by lady 
 Lindsay, notwithstanding her guarded 
 recollection ; and, in his estimation, 
 such a scene could not have taken 
 place between a courier and his royal 
 mistress, unless sanctioned by the adul- 
 terous intercoursewhichhad previously 
 existed between them. The main prop 
 and stay of this part of the evidence, in 
 defence, is lady C. Lindsay; she is 
 made a solitary exception — she only is 
 called, who afterwards withdrew from 
 her royal highness's service at the in- 
 stance of her brother, in consequence 
 of the serious rumours which were in 
 circulation. His learned friends, Messrs. 
 Brougham and Denman, viewed the 
 introduction of Bergami's relatives as 
 estimable, and had even represented it 
 as " natural in a prudent and faithful 
 servant.'' Now, he begged their lord- 
 ships to remark, that this took place at 
 Genoa, not after Bergami had distin- 
 guished himself on the occasion of the 
 attack on the house of her royal high- 
 ness (for Majocchi was the individual 
 who most distinguished himself at that 
 alarming moment), — (a laugh, and 
 order, order) both previously to that 
 burglarious invasion, and before his 
 extolled merits had been discovered. 
 To another fact at Genoa he must also 
 call their recollection, which had been 
 deposed to by two witnesses, that her 
 royal highness's bed was seldom slept 
 in. They had been triumphantly told 
 on the other side, that every fact had^ 
 been contradicted in the most satisfac-'^ 
 tory manner, and that they bad no oc- ' 
 casion to call more witnesses in excul- 
 pation. Now, it appeared in page 13 
 of the minutes, that Bergitui xfw &( 
 
402 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN* 
 
 bre&l< fast with her royal hio:hness in the ' 
 cabinet, that Majocchi an J his brother, i 
 Louis Bergami, wailed upon th.^m, and \ 
 (at page I i) that when Louis Bfr2:aini j 
 was absent, a man of the name of Ca- | 
 inera waited. On this point, then, they | 
 had the power of contradictin«: the I 
 charge by the two individuals a luded j 
 to, both now in the service of h<T royal j 
 highness, and yet his learned friends, ■ 
 in their discretion (a discretion which 1 
 he, the AttDrney-General, did not 
 doubt was well exercised) had not dared 
 to call them. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL was 
 about to retire for a short time, soon 
 after one a'clock, when 
 
 Mr. UENMAN be^gcl theirlordship^ 
 not to separate, f«»r before their separa- 
 tion his learned friend, Mr. Brongham, 
 had an important applicaliun to make 
 to their lordships. 
 
 . Mr. BROUGHAM sooii afterwards 
 catered the hotise, 'llieir lordships, 
 having resumed their «e.ats, be said, he 
 thought it was his duty not t<» lose one 
 moment in making a most important 
 communication to the hmise. There 
 had just been commujil-aied to him, 
 and he new had, the original letteis of 
 the baron Ompteda, sjonned ** J. Omp- 
 teda, "also regularly dated, forwarded 
 to several servants of her majesty's 
 household, endea\'ouriiig to seduce them 
 ta give evidence against their illustrious 
 mistress, among orhers to Mariette (De 
 Mont's sister).— (Loud cries of order, 
 order, counsel withdraw, Scr.) 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL ap- 
 pealed to their lordships, whether such 
 an applicatiou had ever b'-en made 
 under such circumstance'. (Hear.) 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL observed, 
 that he was as mueh surprised as the 
 Attorney-Geueral, or any body else 
 could be ; and whatever miijht be the 
 propriety of nicking the coinmuiiii aiion 
 at some time, he thought the most pro- 
 per stage had not been siilccted. (Hear, 
 h^ar.) 
 
 Mr. BROU,GH,\M feared, that had 
 he delayel one iu^ta^ui in makin;; such 
 communication, after the documents 
 were forwarded to him, lie mi^at have 
 been aqcnsed of acting tmfairlv. 
 
 Lord HOLLAND a-rced with the 
 learaed counsel,, that it was right to 
 make such communica-tion as early as 
 l»o«iible ; what had often been asserted 
 wa? now otfered to be proved. When 
 'ft4*eb iuforro^tiou ought to be received, 
 »r' «ll)eth.ei: it ought to be received at 
 
 all, were questions fur tlieir h'rd.hipi 
 luiure coiisidfratioii. (Ik-ar, hear.) 
 
 L .rd LIVERPOOL ho:.g!it thai tl>e 
 miilille of ihe.\t;orue\-Giiiieral*s speech 
 was not the best time to make such a 
 st iteuieut. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 Tue Marrpiis of LANSDOWN a.!- 
 miitfd thut it was quite iuipoisibleihe'.r 
 iuronnaiiou could be regularly receivcil 
 
 ' The Eirl of DONOUGHMORE 
 maiiitainefl that it was irregular to 
 have made such a commuuicatiou at 
 such a peiiod. 
 
 (Counsel afterwards withdrew. 
 
 On the return of Ibe Altoroey-Geiierat, 
 he proceeded to refer to the enibarkation 
 of Bergami on hoard the Leviulha „ 
 Here again, agreojihle to the universal 
 practice of her majesty, such alteration.s 
 were made as placed Bergami nunr lu-r 
 person, and gave liiin an easy aciess ^> 
 lun- cjjamher. This was part of that 
 system, that hah I, which prevailed 
 throughout. He next adverted to the- 
 occurrences at Catuuin — occurrence's 
 which, if true, planed the adnlterous io-^ 
 tercourse beyond the possibility of a 
 d(»nht. He then read the evidence of 
 De Mont relative to the crying of tike 
 child Victorine, and to the princesa's 
 having been seen coming out of Bei»- 
 gami's room with the pillow under her 
 arm. Much had been said as to the 
 credibility of De Mont ; but s6 much 
 were the counsel for her nuije.sty seiu 
 sible that they had failed in shakiiig hw 
 testimony, that their very last witne^ 
 was a. niilliner from Morge, who was 
 produced to contradict mademoiselle 
 De Mont as to certain loose declarations 
 said to have been made j ears ago. 
 Would they have done so, had they pre-, 
 viously overthrown her testimoJiy in s(» 
 triumphant a niunuer as Ihey have pra-. 
 tended ? The letter ot De* Mont had 
 been quoted to her piejudice ; but, when : 
 all the circnmstances under which th<=y 
 had been written were copsidered, he did 
 not think that any reasonable man could 
 say that they invalidated the testimoi^- ; 
 which she Imd siib.»eqnentlv given upon 
 oatlic The whole of the cross-exami- 
 nation to which she had been subjected, 
 had been ntad'e a vehicle of calumnies, 
 which not the slisihtest attempt had beei? 
 made lo establiNh in evidence. Why was 
 not De Mont's sister called to contradict 
 her? Why was not the countess Oldi 
 produced ? For the best of all possibte 
 reasons : they dare not produce theui ; 
 thpy would have couiiimed the truUi of 
 
DnrfiNC'R OF THE QFKEN. 
 
 403 
 
 n]\ those mntertal facts which vested on j 
 tUo evidence of Louisa De Mont. The 
 vlisniije of portraits hefween her royal 
 Ir-^iinesf and Bergunii was anotlier fact j 
 Mhich could not be overlooked, and ; 
 which of itself spoke Tolunies. Again, I 
 the occurrences on hoard the Ciorinde, in 
 which captain Pccliell had so properly ; 
 refused to sit down at tahle with Ber- j 
 rjaini, were extremely important. Here ) 
 such were the ties between her royal 
 lii;;iiiiess and her favorite, that she 
 woul I not subject him even to the 
 tt .Tij)orary niort lieation of a dismissal 
 from ber table. After leaviajQf the 
 Ciorinde, her royal highness embarked 
 ©n board the polacca. The alteration 
 ivhicli was made in the rooms, at Tunis, 
 had been atiemx>'ed to be exphiined by 
 the circumstance of a doctor having 
 been taken on board at that place, but | 
 where was the necessity of bringing 
 Bergami so very near to her royal 
 liigliness, that from the bed in which 
 he slept he could actually see the 
 ))rincess as she lay in her's ? The man 
 must wilfully shut his eyes against the 
 It^bt wh'> could resist the inference to 
 be drawn from such a fact. The 
 cotngei for her majesty had said, that 
 at Zavoan, nothing had been proved. 
 But .the fact was not so. Here the 
 learned gentleman read part of De 
 Mont's evidence, in which she says 
 that, at Zavoan, the bed of her royal 
 highness *' rather appeared as if two i 
 persons bad slept in it.** Mr. Hownani 
 was called to coniradict the statement j 
 of Majocchi, as to the place where her , 
 majesty dined at Eidiesus. Uj)on bcnig 
 <picstioned as to ^ome circuuKStances, i 
 which he must have remembered, he | 
 answered, '^ Mon nu ricordo," and af- 
 forded no more coiitiadiction to what 
 Majocchi bad said, than lie gave to 
 points of evidence upon which he bad 
 n<it touched- lu fact, Mr. Hovvnam 
 tor.Cot every thing oa this occasion 
 whick it would hiive been inconvenient 
 to remember. The learned counsel 
 next called their atteiiiion to tiie jour- 
 ney to Aum, where it was slated in 
 evidence, that l*ei garni reposed under 
 the same tent with her royal highness, 
 when she needed not his attendance. 
 Hut it was said that she had thrown 
 herself on the bed in her clothes, and 
 was greatly fatigued. If she was fa- 
 tigued, would not a female attendant 
 have been the proper person to wait 
 npon her? Was there nothing improper 
 'iu permitiiflg a thing so indelicatd .•' 
 
 Would their lordships say that a woman 
 of rank might sleep night after night 
 under a tent Mrith her menial servant, 
 because, lt»rsooth, she was not un- 
 dressed. Then, he would ask, were 
 they to presume that this defence was 
 effectual, and was Bergami to lie by 
 the side of his mistress day and night 
 without any imputation upon the cha^- 
 racier of her royal highness? The 
 learned counsel read a considerable 
 part of the evidence with respect to 
 the tent, and said their lordships could 
 not hesitate as to their verdict upon 
 coupling the evidence to which there 
 had been no contradiction, and that to 
 which contradiction had been at- 
 tempted. If it were not admitted that 
 evidence had been given of the adul- 
 terous intercourse, then their lordships* 
 would be sanctioning the conduct which 
 bad been represented to them. Was it 
 to go out amongst the females of this 
 country that they might sleep with their 
 male servants, and be subject to no re^ 
 prehension. If so, adieu to all the 
 securities of female honor 1 All the 
 bright ornam< nts of life must be 
 yielded up upon the pretext that no- 
 thing criminal could have happened in 
 the course of tiio=e familiarities which 
 were thus authorised by the mistress, 
 an 1 offeied by the servant. The learned 
 counsel next called their lordships' at- 
 tention to the charges of adulterous 
 intercourse, on board the polacca. It 
 had l<een said that the tent was erected 
 on deck, in consequence of the noise 
 made by, and the disagreeable smell 
 arising from, the horses confined below, 
 and that the awning had been loosely 
 liying about, and could not have con- 
 cealed any person from the view of 
 those on board. How did the evidence 
 stand ? The captain and mate, whom 
 the queen's coun-^el had attempted to 
 discredit, upon ihe ground of their 
 having received remuneration, when no 
 coniradiclion coul I be offered, had 
 sworn that the tent was fastened down, 
 and that no person whatever could have 
 access or opportunity of seeing what 
 was going on within it. It would not 
 be ini|iroper to mention here, that 
 foreigri captains where in the babit of 
 demanding large sums as remuneration 
 for absenting tiiemselves from their own 
 occupations. Th^y were liable to great 
 losses, and calculated with as much ac- 
 curacy as possible ipon the subject of 
 inconvenience. Those persons wbos« 
 testimony was unimpeachable, had df- 
 clared, that even in the day-tiac th« 
 
404 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QX5EEN. 
 
 tent was closed down by the order of 
 Schiavini! Where isSchiavini? He 
 had assisted lieutenant Flynn in draw- 
 ing; up that memorable paper upon 
 Turhich the gallant lieutenant had dis- 
 tinguished himself in so astonishing a 
 manner. He was now at the house of 
 the queen ! Why had he aot been pro- 
 duced ? If he could contradict the 
 foul and disgusting fact, that the prin- 
 cess was hanging over Bergami in bed; 
 "why had he not been brought forward ? 
 if the queen was anxious to produce 
 all the evidence that could be collected, 
 ^hy not produce Schiavini ? Because 
 the learned counsel for the defence 
 could not rely upon the boldness of 
 Schiavini, although he could depend 
 upon that of Vassal! and others who 
 "were not so delicate. There were 
 periods in which passions of this kind 
 to which the queen had been subject, 
 got the better of all reason ; and no 
 man could believe that those two per- 
 sons who were under a lent together 
 constantly for upwards of five weeks 
 liad not had criminal intercourse. The 
 learned counsel then alluded to the evi- 
 dence of li« utenant Flynn, which, he 
 said, was \vl)olly unworthy of credit, 
 and, with raucii ability, observed upon 
 the want of recollection in the learned 
 counsel , on the subject of the celebra- 
 tion of St. Bnrtlioloraew'ii day. On 
 that occasion the ship was illuminated 
 • — the day of the cavalier was to be 
 celebrated— cries of long live ihe prin- 
 cess. — Long live the cavalier. It was a 
 day of delight and festivity ; and al- 
 though the learned counsel had expres 
 sed the anxious wish to grapple with 
 fhe polacca, this point — this festival, 
 "Was wholly forgotten, and the queen 
 and Bergami were permitted to walk 
 together, arm in arm, on the deck, in 
 all the energy of their passions without 
 the chance of being disturbed. The 
 learned counsel then with great spirit 
 alluded to he attempts to destroy the 
 evidence of Majocchi, by threatening 
 to bri g forward other witnesses, and 
 throwing out baits tu induce him to 
 repeat the favorite sentence, " Non mi 
 ticordo.'* Why had not Mr. Johnson 
 of Bristol, and all those other persons 
 Xvho were to destroy the credibility of 
 Majocchi been called? Because they 
 tvould not come ?- -because they had 
 nothing to say.? — because the whole 
 "was a trick to raise the pre-,ent pre- 
 judice, which was soon to fall before 
 the power of truth ? The learned gen- 
 
 tleman concluded by alluding to the 
 evidence of Carrington, which he i-aid, 
 had been completely destroyed by that 
 of Sir John Bcresford, who had, he 
 s^id, been called by a noble lord lo give 
 a character of the witness, contrary to 
 all precedent. 
 
 Earl GREY defended himself from 
 this imputation, and the house ad- 
 journed. 
 
 SATURDAY. October, 28. 
 
 THE ATTORN KY-GENERAL'S 
 
 REPLY CONCLUDED. 
 
 The House having assembled, Connsel 
 were called in. 
 
 The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, in con- 
 tinuation: He commenced by remarking-, 
 that in his former allusion to the evi- 
 dence in this case, he had omitted to no- 
 tice the fact of her Royal Highness hav- 
 ing- at Jerusalem conferred a certain order 
 of knighthood, of her own creation, upon 
 the person who composed her suite at 
 Jerusalem. This circumstance had been 
 treated by his learned friend (Mr. Brough- 
 am) with much pleasantry; he, however, 
 considered it a subject for grave obser- 
 vation, and especially when it was recol- 
 lected that the favored Bergami was 
 made the orand master of this order, and 
 was for the first time dignified by her 
 royal highness with the title of colonel, 
 never having advanced beyond the rank 
 of quarter master. This was an important 
 fact, which more than any comment 
 proved the familiarity which existed be- 
 tween this nmn and her royal highness 
 the princess of Wales. The next point fit 
 succession, was the return of hei royal' 
 highness to the villad'Este, and the alter- 
 ations w hich there took place in the bed- 
 chambers of that mansion. His learned 
 friend Mr. Williams, had attempted to 
 explain this by stating that this alteration 
 took place in consequence of the rooms 
 having- smoked and with a view to obiain 
 a more easy access toother parts of the 
 build ng. This statement it was consi- 
 dered important by his learned friend 
 to make, and yet he had not ventured to 
 offer a single title of evi.lence in support 
 of it. Hence he concluded that uo such 
 proof could be inferred; and that, there- 
 fore, the conchisionsjwhich he had drawn 
 as confirmatory of the intimacy which sub- 
 sisted between these two individuals was 
 still further established. Then came the 
 occurrences during the German tour, the 
 arrival of her majesty at Charnitz, and the 
 subsequent relurn of Bergami from In- 
 
DEFEiNCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 405 
 
 pruck, whither he ]iad n^one %vith Vassali 
 for pass|jorls, stood tirsl in order j and here 
 he submitted, that no contradiction ^vlint- 
 ever had been given to ibe fact that 
 Bergaiiii, after his return, had remained 
 for a considerable period in her royal 
 highness'a room. It was proved by 
 Viiiisati that her majesty was in bed, 
 and that froin tliv time of his re- 
 turn till they set off on their journey, 
 the fullest wpportuniiy was afforded for 
 every thiuj: which De Mont had de- 
 scribed to have occurred. He next ad- 
 verted to the scenes at Carlsihue, 
 which had been proved by ihe evidence 
 of Barbara Kress. This woman de- 
 scribed the t)ld continuity of Bergami'» 
 room to that ot the princess ; and here 
 he had to remark, that throughout the 
 whole of thi^ case, no attempt had 
 been made to disprove ihe disposition 
 of ihe rooms — consequently, he had a 
 right to conclude, that in that respect 
 his case remained without contra- 
 diction. It appeared from this woman's 
 evidence, that •* she saw the princess 
 sittiojf upon Berganti's bed, and imme- 
 diately jumped u{) — the arm of Bergami 
 was round the princess, but siie could 
 not say whether she was stripped or 
 not." How was this case attempted 
 to be met .' Why, by accounting for 
 every minute that her royal highness 
 was at CarUrhue. He denied, how- 
 ever, that this attempt had been suc- 
 cessful, and illH^trated this remark by 
 reference to the evidence of lieutenant 
 iiowuam, who would not undertake to 
 say that there was not ample time for 
 her royal highness, in the interval, 
 between her visit to the grand duke 
 and the margravine's, to have returned 
 to the ittn, and to have been found in 
 the situation described by Kress. The 
 other witness called, with a view to 
 give the same sort of explanation with 
 lieutenant Hownam, was Vassali, whose 
 evidence he would read, [here the 
 learned attorney read the evidence of 
 Vassali], From this he concluded 
 that it was not alone possible, but pro- 
 bable, that the circumstance, described 
 by Kress, had taken place. Unless 
 the evidence of Kress were shaken, 
 therefore, the fact sworn to by her was 
 clearly established. There was another 
 imjiortant fact sworn to by this woman, 
 and that was the fact of her having 
 found a cloak upon Bergami's bed, 
 one similar to which she afterwards 
 saw worn by the princess. This cloak 
 .Kress stated »he bad given to a ser- 
 
 vant of her royal highness. This, then 
 was a fact which might have been 
 contradicted. Had her royal highness 
 such a cloak.' They had not dared to 
 prove that she had not ; and if she 
 had, how was this fact to be accounted 
 for ? Was it not demonstrative of the 
 existence of the adulteroiis intercourse 
 which l»ad been charged in the pre- 
 amble of this bill. lu the cross-exa- 
 mination of Kres'', attempts had beea 
 made lo throw retieciions on the cha- 
 racter of Kress, but not a single proof 
 had been adduced from whence to con- 
 clude that those attempts had the 
 slightest foundation. Out of doors, 
 and through the medium of the press, 
 she had been vilified, traduced, and 
 exposed to every obloquy ; but at their 
 l<>rdships' bar she remained free from 
 all imputations. Under such circum- 
 stances, and if their lordships, believed 
 her testimony, lo what other conclusion 
 could they come, than that the exist- 
 ence of ;a criminal intercourse between 
 these parties had been established be- 
 yond the possibility of a doubt ? How 
 did his learned triendi* attempt to get 
 rid of Barbara Kress's evidence ? Why, 
 by introducing the correspondence 
 between Mr. Leman and the baron 
 D'Eude. If the latter person was for- 
 merly so anxious to give evidence on 
 the part of her majesty, why did he 
 hesitate in confing over, when all 
 obstacles to quitting his own country 
 had been removed? It was said, that 
 he did not cotne in consequence of anj 
 real illness, but because he was de- 
 sirous of gratifying the wishes of some 
 other persons by bis absence. He 
 (the Attorney-General) strongly sus- 
 pected, that his learned friends did 
 not wish the baron to come, because 
 they knew he could depose to nothing 
 itt the queen's favour> and therefore 
 made the mo«t of his ■ declining at 
 length to travel to England. Another 
 topic urged in the defence, was the 
 nou-produc«i()n of the person named 
 Grimm, to confirm Kress, and who, 
 as well as that woman, had been sub- 
 jected to, the most unjust aspersions. 
 It a[)peared from Kress's evidence, 
 that in fact Grimm could not have 
 confirmed her, as to the most material 
 part of her statement, and therefore 
 there could have been no useful pur- 
 pose answered in bringing him over. 
 He dismissed then the evidence of 
 Kress, with this observation, that her 
 character was ucimpeachable, h^r evij 
 
40(> 
 
 DEFENCE OP THE QUEEIf. 
 
 dcnee was iucapable of being coatra' 
 tlicted, and tl)ai it was open lo cuiitra- 
 diciion i' it were uoi true. At Turin a 
 stroDg fact was deposed to by a uit- 
 uess named Veralo, who^e character 
 was not attacked, and whose evidence 
 remained untouched in the course of 
 Ibe defence. He deposed to seeing- 
 Bergami coining out of the queen's 
 bed-room in a stale of undress, with 
 nothing but his morning-jiosv'n on. 
 Toere was a witness who might have 
 been called l») contra«lict him, but wlio 
 -was not called, and that was the Dan- 
 donere, to whom he was carrying some 
 articles of dress for the queen at the 
 lime. Here then was a fact wiiich 
 went to the root of the case, and de- 
 stroyed the remaining spark vf life 
 which existed in her majesty's de- 
 fence. With respect to what occurred 
 al Trieste, his learned friends had with 
 great adroilriessj but with unpardon- 
 able irregularity, introduced a nevts- 
 p-aper to show that her majesty visittd, 
 and was visited, by certain per-ous of 
 rank, knowing that such evidence 
 €ould not properly be received. This 
 proved to what slits her majesix's 
 counsel were driven to uphold their 
 shattered ca^e. If the matter con- 
 tained in that page could avail her ma- 
 jesty, why were not perst)n^ bronghi 
 from Trieste to give «»r*l evidence on 
 ber behalf? Tlje truth was, no such 
 persons could be funud ; and if they 
 were, it was an impeachment of Mr. 
 Vizard's professional activity, that he 
 •did not bring them ; but nu one could 
 accuse that gentleman of a want of 
 aeal for his royal client. The testi- 
 mony of Cuchi was also as open to the 
 •Iwervation as that of Kress ; it re- 
 naiiifed uncontradicted, thongb ca- 
 pable of -contradiction if not true. A 
 severe attack had been made upon the 
 evidence of Sacchi, but when the evi- 
 clence of those persons, who werecalled 
 to contradict him, came lo be carefully 
 examined, it would be found, that his 
 testimony was in no degree shaken, 
 because it would appear that those very 
 persous had contradicted themselves, 
 bad shown that ihey c«iuld not agree 
 with each other tipon the relation of 
 iaets and circunisiances, ai>ont which 
 there eould be no doubt, if tbey were 
 speaking Ike truth. The Attorney-Ge- 
 neral then proceeded to examine in 
 detail the evidence of Vasisati, lieute- 
 nant Ho wnciin,Oliviera, audCarloForti, 
 Usui pointed out paJpabJe disagree- 
 
 meuti between their evidence upon 
 the facts to which tliey d«>po8ed ; on 
 the other hand, he dwelt with consider- 
 able force upon the facts dej»osed to in 
 the evifleuce ot Sacchi, couicnding that 
 he was the witness of trmh, and bad 
 been in no material degiee shaken iu 
 his evidence. He (the Aiioiuey-Ge- 
 neral) confessed that he was a little 
 sur[»ri-)ed at tiie sarcasm thrown out by 
 his learneii fjicnO, Mr. lirougham, in 
 commenting upon lite evidence ut 
 Sacchi, by representing thai tiiat j>erson 
 was a soldier in iheafiny of Bonaparte ; 
 and from ihui ftituuiion hail been pro- 
 moted to her majesty's service, thereby 
 suggesting an invidious comparibon 
 between him and the witne>se!» called 
 in defence. Ii sometimes hapj'eued 
 that person};, >vho dealt in general ob- 
 servations of this kind, i.ndesigueoly 
 exftosed themselves lo the like lemarks. 
 Such was the case in the present Jit- 
 stanco. The Princess of Wales c mid 
 not but be aware that sbe was uniied 
 to the beir-npnarent of , a iMonaichy 
 which had made the most gigantic 
 efforts to I epress that ambition which 
 threatened with desuuciiun ber native 
 country, and also that wiih wiiicii siwi 
 was connecte<l by marriage. He conld 
 not snjipose iliai her royal highness the 
 Princess of Wales could have such a 
 prejudice against Stxeni, on account 
 of his services in tbe French army, 
 when it was recollected that she took . 
 into her favour Bert;ami, a soldier of 
 fortune in he same a: my. Vassali and 
 01iviera,persons of the same ueaCiiptiou. 
 Her royal highness cmild find no lanlt 
 in these perst»ns on thai account. Hi^ 
 learned friend must take a strange 
 view of his royal clieni'^s conduct, il he 
 fek it became a liritish princess to ce- 
 lebrate at a masked ball given lo the 
 Kiug of Italy, the achievements of a 
 man whose ambition had caused the 
 I destine. ion of some ot ber nearest le- 
 latives, aud to re pi ess whose aggres- 
 sions the Wood aud treasure of that 
 country, to which sbe was united by 
 interest and feeling, had been spent m 
 profusion. The sarcasm of his learned 
 friend, therefore, was very ill timed, 
 attd he must -have forgotten the cha- 
 racter ond description of witnesses by 
 whom Sacciii wa- opposed, 'Ihe next 
 circumstance trinwipbantly relied upon, 
 was the absence of Rasie li, at the lime 
 when he was called by bis learned 
 friends. Oh ! fortunate cirtumsiance 
 for the qucjeUf when lieuieuaul Fiyuu 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 407 
 
 wa<5 Mown to n»<»m?, and when liente- 
 iKi'it Howiutin hill a<lmitte<l the whole 
 Gf»'<* aj;ui::st her imijesiy. 'Vhc cor.- 
 fiii<i()ii ami dismay of his le;iriieii iiieii(l> 
 wa? evident upon \\iv exatninatioii ol 
 the^e two wtiiCN^es, and when the> 
 foMnd the cn-e totteiiii? luirter ilietn — 
 when they dated not call auotlwr wi<- 
 ne s to sjrapple ^ith the facts proved, 
 then ill the inonieut of ditr«cu!ty ih«y 
 Httemi»i<Ml to divert tlie attention of the 
 h(.n;e !)y fa^tenin^- upon the circmn- 
 stanre of Rastelli's absence, an<l make 
 the most of it, Thi- was a most fortu- 
 nate hit in ih ' <'a<e for \»er majesty ; 
 hut he Relieved, in his con cieiice, that 
 had Ra'itelli heen pre-eut, liis learned 
 friends woidd not iiave examined Itim. 
 An at empt iiad bi'vii made ro contra- 
 dict R istelji, as to the i^roito s«cene, by 
 c;illin<^ Pomi atid ajn»tiier witness, but 
 neither «»f thnm had ^ucceecied in the 
 object for which they had been called. 
 On the contrary they ha«i ci»mpletely 
 fai'^d, and the circumstance «»f their 
 not havii!<r produced plans of the bnild- 
 W'^, shoved that thev merely relied 
 'iTion their tnemory, wliich a»>peared to 
 hi^ frail and juk ertriiu. The learned 
 I A'tornev-Getjeral thctt adverted to the 
 
 Milan Cointni-;sii u, and contet)ded that 
 v couhl not have been composed of 
 more able, respectabl-^, and efficient 
 n»etj. As t(» the circtimstance of Mr. 
 P •v<ell beinu: emploved to assist in the 
 }>renaraii;»n of the evidence, it was his 
 '^nty, and he (Jul no more than Mr. 
 Vznrd in the collection of evidence oi 
 behalf of her majesty. He then suc- 
 ce-sively exaini' ed the testimony of 
 the other witnesses in detail, and con- 
 tended that the bathing scene in the 
 rtvffr Bre/zia remained nncontradicted 
 —that the prof^iirary of the balls at the 
 Barona, and the indecent dance of 
 Mah> m- 1, were still uncontradicte '. 
 The learned gentleman proceede*! in 
 t''e same style of arjrutnent to recapitu- 
 late the remain«!er of the evidence in 
 snpport of the bill, and contrastin;; it 
 as be went on with the testimony of 
 the witnesses adduced to contradict 
 thos'^ for the bill, and contending that 
 "o'i iijs: had come out from the tesli- 
 »t>ony of those witnesses to invalidate 
 the charges he had laid before the 
 house ; aad recapitulatinjf the names 
 o^ all his witnesses, eriatim, contended, 
 that he had fully sustained the main 
 P'Muts which he had stated on openln§f 
 the case, in )»rovjn«^, he misted, to the 
 ^liifatjtioii of ihcirlordihipj, ihe.grossj 
 
 immoral, and criminal iutcrcours« 
 which had subsisted between her ma- 
 jesty and Bergami. Having, therefore, 
 to the be^t of his ability, discharged 
 the painful duties impo^sed on him, ai|^ 
 wliich he had m(<st reluctantly under* 
 taken, he no\f beg^jed leave to take a 
 short view of the manner in which the 
 l»rocee<lings were conducted on the 
 other side, as will as of the nature of 
 the evidence adilnced in support of 
 her fMijesty's case. Her niajesty's 
 connsel had been constantly in the 
 habit of ircatittg the evidence opposed 
 to them with the grossest invectives, 
 and imputing the most base, corrupt, 
 and criminal motives to ail who were 
 c.,iu:erned in conducting this most ex- 
 traordiiiarv case, and how were the 
 charijes of the across familiarities be- 
 tween lier majesty and Bergarai, as 
 well as the shameful indelicacy of tlie 
 queen's own conduct, vindicated by 
 those witnesses in general ; amongst 
 otheislord Llandaff was called to prove 
 that he had often paid morning visits 
 to the princess's bed-room, ivhile her 
 royal higimess was in bed, and that the 
 custom was frequent in Italy. But, 
 was it because his lordship, or other 
 i persons of rank, who were there ia 
 j the habit of visiting their intimates and 
 j the members of their family while ia 
 j their bed-chambers in the morning, 
 { that it was therefore delicate that male 
 i servants, such as Bergami, were to be 
 permitted in her majesty's bed-room, 
 i while her maid was attending her. 
 , When Sir Wm. Gell was adduced »<> 
 j prove that, during his three months' 
 I residence inherroyal highiiess's family, 
 ] he never saw the least improper frc«- 
 I dom from her towards Bergami. Biit 
 j it afterwards came out incidentalTy 
 ': from the evidence of Carrington, the 
 i servant of Sir William, that he was not 
 a constant resident in the family — never 
 slept a night in the hnu^e — was only 
 an accidentfil g-uest at dintier— and 
 actually resided nearly two miles froni 
 the hoi'i',e, and at the end of three 
 months he quitted her royal highness'* 
 suite. Doctor Holland, iti like manner, 
 was adduced for the like proof. Bat 
 it appeared her royal highness dis- 
 missed him under pretence of permit- 
 ting him to g-o on a tour for his owa 
 purposes. That h* never returned to the 
 liouse but merelyforrhepurpose of receiv- 
 ing his stipend; and never sintje joined 
 her royal highness's househould. So, 
 iu like uiauner, her old and foUhhil 
 
408 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 servant Skard, was dismissed her ser- 
 vice, though with his full sahiry, on 
 leave to come to England, that he 
 might not he a witness of her conduct. 
 How then could he be a witness of 
 what took place in his absence. Hut 
 her majesty's counsel although they 
 promised to bring the most unquestion- 
 able witnesses to contradict those for 
 the prosecution, had totally omitted 
 to call any of the witnesses who were 
 moSt competent, from having been 
 always about her majes y's person, to 
 ^sprove the charges, if they were un- 
 founded. The only one of them, and 
 indeed, the only female witness ad- 
 duced, was lady Charlotte Lindsay. 
 But where was ^f. De Mont ? Where 
 was L. Bergami, or the Count ss Olcli, 
 or her mother ? The members of that 
 illustrious family couhl not be excep- 
 tionable in her majesty's view, and 
 were competent witnesses, but they 
 were not called. Wh<re was William 
 Austin ? He surely was a competent 
 witness ? Where was Hieronymns, or 
 any of the many others who were al- 
 ways about her, and accompanied her 
 io all ber fetes, and all her journies ? 
 Not one of these were produced, and 
 tlie omission to call them spoke more 
 strongly to the guilt of her majesty than 
 almost all that had been proved against 
 her. As to the testimony of lieutenant 
 Flynn, it was hardly necessary for him 
 to comment upon it ; and tiie decided 
 and unquestionable testimony of cap- 
 tain Briggs, shewed what sort ol re- 
 liance was to have been placed on 
 lieutenant Hownam, by decidedly con- 
 tradicting what he asserted upon his 
 oath. Hut why was not Bergami him • 
 self, her majesty's chamberlain, and 
 he believed not yet dismissed her ser- 
 vice, brought forward as a witness? 
 Surely, if ti.e queen was innocent, he 
 was themos competent of all witnesses 
 to prove the case. 
 
 Mr. SOLlClTOn-GENERAL then 
 addressed their lordships. He began 
 by entreating his hopes for their indul- 
 gence, under the state of exhaustion to 
 which he was reduced by his attendance 
 to his duties iu this long and arduous 
 trial ; and more especially under the 
 disadvantaiCi of rising to a(ldre^s the«n 
 upon a topic so much exhausted, and 
 after the able and elaborate speech of 
 his lea ned friend. Indeed, perhaps, 
 be would do better by reniainin^- silent 
 upon the subject ; arid, if he consulted 
 the dictates' of his own feelings, he 
 
 should not offer one word upon it. Bat 
 he would do his duty to the best of his 
 po\\ers, however painful the task. The 
 elevation of Hergami's family, was, he 
 contended, utterly unaccountable upon 
 any other grotnids than those " hieh 
 were imputed to her uiajesty. When 
 before were twelve or thirteen of the 
 same family elevated in such a man- 
 ner? The first of them from the sta- 
 tion of courier to that of a Knight of 
 Malta, a Sicilian Raron, and Grand 
 >? aster of the Order of the Holy Se- 
 pulchre ; — a colonel, t(K), was this same 
 Bergami .'esigiated. The learned gen- 
 tleman then referr d to tlie evidence of 
 Sir William Cell, of Mr. Keppt- II Cra- 
 ven, the i'arl of (iuildford, and \lr. 
 Sicar«l, to explain what were the man- 
 ners of Bergami, because, forsooth, it 
 w;iS on account of his manners, so su- 
 perior to his station, th^t he was so 
 rapidly and inconceivably promoted. 
 Kr m the testimony which he recapi- 
 tulated, it was clear th it there was no- 
 thing in the manners of Hergami to 
 entitle him to all this favour from his 
 royal mistress, jt was said, indeed, 
 that there was a promise to the mar- 
 quis Ghisiliere, who recommended 
 him, that when the princess stopped 
 on her journey, Hergami should, if he 
 ( behaved properly, be kept on the ser- 
 sW', out of livery. So that in fact, it 
 was fully proved, that Bergami was 
 only talen into the service as a courier, 
 and the only promise made was, that if 
 he behr.ved well, he might be retained 
 out of livery. It was also singular that 
 when almost the whole of Bergami's 
 family werethe.the objects of her royal 
 highness's patronage, there should yet 
 be one remarkable exception, namely, 
 that of his wife, who never, from the 
 beginn ng to the end, Mas permitted to 
 I come where her husband was. 
 I I be learned counsel then proceeded, 
 ! with great ingenuity, to advert t<> all 
 j the circumstances connected with the 
 ! scenes on board the polacca, and under 
 I the tent at Aum, all of wtiich he for- 
 i cibly rontended » ould only t ave arisen 
 i from the insatiable passion of her royal 
 j highness towards the object of her fa- 
 I vQur. It was impossible lor any man, 
 not wilfully shutting his e es to con- 
 viction, to come to any otier conclu- 
 sion. He next referred to the occur- 
 rences at San Carlos, at Genoa, at 
 Milan, at Venice, at Bologna, Lugano, 
 and the Devil's Bridge ; in all which 
 places he contended the same decided 
 
DEFEPrCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 409 
 
 evidence was given of her royal higli- 
 ness's criminal attacliment to Ber^ami. 
 
 At ft)ur •'clock the learned counsel 
 Intimated that he should, in the dis- 
 charge of his duty, still have to tres- 
 pass further on their lordships' time. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL proposed 
 an adjournment to Monday. 
 
 Karl GRFY said, ho had no objection 
 to ihU adjournment, provided it mig:lit 
 be understood that the subsequent ad- 
 journment did not extend beyond the 
 follow in^ Ti'.ursday. 
 
 After some ob>ervations from the 
 LORD CHANCELLOR, this was 
 agreed to. 
 
 Adjourned to Monday. 
 
 MONDAY, October 30. 
 
 The SOLICITOR-GENERAL hav.- 
 inpf proceeded to comment with great 
 ingenuity on all the facts to which the 
 Attorney General had not particularly 
 adverted, and having dwelt with much 
 force on those points to which his 
 learned friend's observations had not 
 been direeto I, cDucluded by saying, 
 that itwa- for their lordships to declan', 
 after having heard the whole evidence 
 of the case, whether the charge was 
 not substantially made out against her 
 majesty. N ver came a cause into a 
 court of justice attended iy so much 
 severe anxiety at i s entrance and dur- 
 ing its progress to a final result. Every 
 {Kis^iion had been sticcessively applied 
 to by his learned friends in condu ting 
 the defence of her majesty. 'I hey had, 
 indeed, well and faithiuHy discharged 
 their arduous duty to their illustrious 
 client. Of their mode of conducting 
 the defence he made no complaint; he 
 r .ther rejoiced that such great talents 
 had been exercised in behalf of a queen 
 of England, called upon to meet such 
 a charge. His learned friends bad, 
 indeed, endeavoured to awaken all the 
 sympathies ami passions of t} eir lord- 
 ships f r their client; they had even 
 in her cause appealed to the basest of 
 nil passions,— iear; they had done so 
 too to the pe rs of a country renowned 
 for its fame and valour. Their lonl- 
 &hips had been told that they would 
 commit an act of political suicide, if 
 they passed this bill; they fcere again 
 told hy one of his learned fi lends, that 
 they would pass it at their peril: these 
 words hung loag enough upon liis 
 learned friend's lipa to be understood, 
 though they were immediately after 
 affecifedly mthdrawn. lie was asto^ 
 
 52 
 
 I nished at the introduction of such 
 I topics, for they could only have an 
 j injurious effect upon those from whom 
 tliey proceeded. He (the Solicitor- 
 General) knew well that their lordships 
 would not dare to be unjust; at the 
 same time he knew that what justice 
 H'quired they would be prepared to do, 
 without reference to any consequences* 
 It was not here alone that the^e artifices 
 were resorted to ; (he same course of 
 intimidation had been pursued ont of 
 doo.s,and attempts of every desc ip- 
 tion were repeatedly resorted to for tb« 
 purpose of exciting apprehension. Even 
 the name of her majesty had been pro- 
 faned (undoubtedly without her con- 
 sent) for these purposes ; her name had 
 been used in attacks against all that 
 was sacred and venerable in the consti- 
 tution, the sovereignty, the hierarchy, 
 against all the order:? in the state. 
 I'hese attacks could never have pro- 
 ceeded from her majesty, though made 
 under her sacred name ; they sprung 
 from those who sheltered themselves and 
 their dark and mischievous designs 
 agaiHst the state under the shield of 
 her majesty's name. If their lordships 
 thousrht the guilt of the queen clearly 
 established bj legal evidence, then they 
 had but on« duty, and that was to pass 
 the bill. If they did not think the case 
 made out by legal evidence, then and 
 tiien alone could they, in the fine Ian* 
 guage quoted by his learned friend (Mr. 
 Denm-an), say to her Majesty, " Go 
 thy ways, and sin no more." if, how- 
 ever, they were satisfied by bending 
 tiieir minds to the whole of the evi- 
 dence, looking at it with just and dis- 
 passionate feelings — if they saw no 
 real doubt in the case, then, knowing 
 the upright judgment of the tribunal 
 which he h d the honour of addressing, 
 he was sure they would pr«mounce their 
 decision with that firmness which be- 
 came their exalted station and upright 
 and dignified character. The Solieitor- 
 Cieneral terminated his speech at a 
 quarter before two o'clock. 
 
 BARON OMPTEDA. 
 Mr. BROUGHAM then requested 
 permission to address their lordships* 
 lie paid he was qui:e aware that he had 
 n«» right to be now beard, but he threw 
 himself upon the house for permis«.ion 
 to explain the misstatements, he knew 
 the accidental misstatwnents, of his 
 learned friend who had just sat dowK^ 
 He wsi» most anxiouj to inform ife» 
 
410 
 
 DEFESCE OF THE QUEKPT. 
 
 house, in explanation of the Interpo- 
 sition h«had made during t\ie pause in 
 the Attorney-General's speech, by the 
 mtroduction of the bar«»u Onipte 'a's 
 letters. He felt it his solemn di.ty to 
 entreat their lordships' Ut have tliese 
 letters explained : ho on the former 
 occasion took the earliest opportimity 
 of tendering^ them to their lordships, 
 on behalf of her majesty. It appeared 
 to him that they werv- admissible in 
 two points of view In the first place, 
 m an ordinary trial^ he was conviiiced 
 no judge would exclude material and 
 important testimony accidentally com- 
 ing before the fiiia\ ju:'g;ment, open 
 of course to the ordeal tf cross-ex- 
 amination, and of bein;< rebutted, if 
 possible, by other evidence. If this 
 would be permitted in a fribunal, purely 
 judicial, it surely would not be excluded 
 when a Icijislative proc(^eding wa^ 
 jpendin^ like the present. IJe hoped he 
 mi^lit be permitte 1 to say that he 
 thought this evidence was very ma- 
 terial in two points of vit^w. In tht- 
 first place, it most disiinctly and un- 
 equivocally brought hon)e acts of 
 agency to IVancis baron Ompteda, W 
 whom these letters were si^^ned. U 
 explained away the whole ellect of his 
 learned friend the Attorney-General's 
 observation, that of the mime of 
 ** baron Ompleda they had heard so 
 much and seen so little." '1 hese letters 
 would entirely undeceive lii>. learned 
 fri nd upon that point, itw;is sini;wilar, 
 "but so the fact was, tliat he should have 
 got these letters almost at the instant 
 vphen his learned frirnd oas in the 
 act of commentinj^ upon the want of 
 such testimony. 1 hese letters lixed an 
 agency for the prosecution upon the 
 baron Ompteda, and showel him to be 
 perhaps the least serujtulou* of all the 
 agents enjployed, in a ca-^e in which so 
 few scruples were observable — an assent, 
 who was most actively and anxiously 
 engaged in endeav luring, by the most 
 discreditable n»eaiis, to twist sotnething 
 like evidence out of lier majesty's ser- 
 vants. 'i'Jiese letters showed Ompteda 
 cndeavouriug to employ a police-agent, 
 with the iountenancc of that agent's 
 governjnent, ta seduce two of her 
 nmjos'y'^s servants to give evdence 
 against her. Tl:rough that police- 
 agMiit Ompteda carried on a corrc 
 spondcnce betwewi Je Mont and her 
 sistei, fviariette Hrotj. In this corre 
 ipondeo-e the^auxicty of i^e Mont was 
 a()|)areut, lut her siiter sliould be re- 
 
 tained in the princess's establishment^ 
 for whu/ purpose iheir lord .hips miglH 
 ea>ily gut'Ss. It appeared from the.s»^ 
 documents, ihat De Mont, «hrough tlm 
 means hr had already slated, kept up a 
 corrrsp»)b(lei»ce wiili her s>isfr :^ >.f»e 
 carried it on at the very time when she 
 was in the hands of the Milan commit. 
 sioueis. She carried it on through the 
 nuaus of this baron, who was the 
 Hanoverian minister, the agent of 
 count Munster, and the principal 
 j)erson in that system of foreign diplo- 
 macy, to the machinations of which 
 their lordships owed the task of sifting 
 this unhappy question. !t would ap- 
 pear from Ompteda's letters, tfiat it was 
 not only Mariette Broii who>se assist- 
 ance he required, but also Hierony- 
 mus, of whom it seemed he had ven- 
 lured to form hopes, for he thought he 
 might be Safely trusled. Col. Olivierr 
 JiO also wanted ; he t>ay?, in one of his 
 letters, " Can't \ou get at him." Be 
 afterwards writes — " I fear bhe has re- 
 cently ijot a great number of Roman 
 •persons ir.io her service; I should be 
 very curious to know their names" — 
 for what purpose he need not rcminrf 
 their lordships, when they looked at 
 this haron*s whole conduct. An-l all 
 this was done with a rouleau of Louis 
 in his hand to carry on the tratlic^ 
 Thee letter- would furnish the au»wer 
 to his learned fiiend's questions of — 
 •' Where was Hieronynius? Where was 
 Mariette ?'^' It was acts like these of 
 the baron that involved the English 
 miniters in a case, to the early pro- 
 ceedings in which he believed they 
 were alien. Tl,e case was forced upon 
 them by tlie conduct of this Hanove- 
 rian agent, aiid it was most materia.^ 
 that the letters he now held in Ids hand 
 ."•hou'd he read by their lordships.. 
 Their contont* 
 
 The A'lTOKNEY GENERAL: My 
 lords, 1 «)bjcrt (o the course which my 
 le uiicd friend is taking. It is highly 
 irregular, after the case is closed, to 
 proeeid t'lis way in reply. 
 
 T h e L( ) R D ( ■ HAN CEL 1 O R : \V bat 
 is it you sav, Mr. Attortie\-(ieneral ? 
 
 The ATTO K N I : Y-G 1 : N i: R A L sail 
 he was coniphiining <»f the course about 
 t<» bo taken by his learned (riend \ but 
 he now found that Mr. Hrougham had 
 ftiiisljed. Jn reply to his aj)plica(ioa 
 he must now say that ii was the uu^H 
 extraordinary he had ever witnessed. 
 
 If h. 
 
 had tl e laieiiis and learning of 
 
 Ijis^lcamcd friend urrajcd at his &i_de,._ 
 
DEFENCE OP THE QUEEN. 
 
 411 
 
 and that he (the Attorney-General) on 
 the other, had ventured to make such 
 an application, then iudei'd his learned 
 friend niight exchiim — '* Is this a court 
 of justice ia wliich such an application 
 is made?" J I is h'ariicJ friend Itnew 
 the inadmissibility of his application, 
 and therefore ouj^ht not to have al- 
 luded as Ik; iiad done to tlie contents of 
 a supposed correspondence, which he 
 knew could not be received iu evi- 
 dence, 
 
 Mr, BROUGHAM, in reply, urgeU 
 the necessity, willi a view to form a 
 jn«it estimate of the manner in wliicli 
 this case had been got up, and to the 
 attainment ot substantial justice, of 
 tbese letters being receive<l. 
 
 After some further arguments on the 
 part of the Attorney-General, and re- 
 plies by Mr. Broujjiiam. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR express- 
 ed hU opinion that the lellers in 
 question could not be received* 
 
 The Earl of CARNARVON was of 
 opinion that the papers offered by 
 counsel ought to be received. He con- 
 ceived that the question ought not to 
 he, whether they had any bearing on 
 the facts which aj)peared in evidence, 
 but whether they boe on the charac- 
 ter of the whole proceeding. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR now 
 put the question, Nvhether their lord- 
 ships would receive the papers o^ffered, 
 and it was carried in the negative. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL (we be- 
 lieve) rose, and was moving that their 
 lordships should adjourn, when 
 
 The Duke of HAMILTON ro^e. 
 He began by expressing his n-grcl tiiat 
 his noble friend (Lord Carnarvon) had 
 not concluded >viih a motion tlial the 
 papers offered by counsel should be re- 
 ceived. If there was any point con- 
 nected with the present unfortun^'te 
 proceedings uj)on which their lord- 
 ships ought to require full information 
 before they went further, he contended, 
 thjt it was ou the conduct of the Milan 
 commission, and some transactions to 
 which that gave .ise. If the noble 
 lord at the h.-ad of the treasury (L-.rd 
 Liverpool; was earnest in his search 
 for truth, if he ui-hed to see stritt 
 justice done to all parties, he o «ght, in 
 his (the duke of Hamilton's) opinion, 
 to endeavour to divest him-elf and the 
 government wiih which he acted, of 
 kuy participation in Hanoverian whis- 
 pers. He confessed that, when he saw 
 Vhai sh^re hacj Ueeij taken iu this 
 
 affair by the Hanoverian minister, he 
 did suppose that there v^ ould not exist 
 a wish but to examine farther into it. 
 j In ord^r to substantial justice, he 
 thought tho>e pa[>ers ought to be re- 
 ceived, and with that view he should 
 I conclude by moving that the papers 
 i oftVred by counsel should be a(lrnitted ; 
 I and, as he considered it was of import- 
 I aiice, for the sake of juwiee, he should 
 I take tl^e sense of the house upon it. 
 I Earl GREV had already delivered his 
 opinion on the pre-ent measure, which 
 he considered could never he justitied.. 
 He however, thought it would be un^ 
 wise at this sta2;e of the proceeding to 
 depart from rules which had hitherto 
 been strictly observed, and in that 
 feeling he concurred with the noble and 
 learned lord on the wool-ack, that 
 these letters ouglit not to be received. 
 
 The Earl of CARNARVON spoke ia 
 favr of the motion. 
 
 Earl GROSVENOR opposed it, oB 
 similar grounds with Earl Grey. 
 
 Lord HOLLAND suggested, that if 
 this evidente was to be received, it 
 would then he incumbent on them to go 
 further into the new inquiry which 
 would by that means be opened. For 
 his own pirt, he felt himself quite ex- 
 hausted by the length to which the 
 main investigation had already ex- 
 tended. His reason, however, for the 
 5 vole that he should give on this 
 question, was — and it would aftbrd him 
 j great satisfaction to find that others 
 ; were equally inlluenced by the same 
 j reason — that he was determined to vote 
 I again t the bill itself, on principle* 
 which ha't often been maintained ia 
 I that hoHse on former occasions (hear, 
 I hear). He did think also, that no man 
 I could give an honest vote the other 
 i way, without first sifting and examin- 
 j i"g t'v ry part of the subject, and ac- 
 ! qiiainting- himself with the real means 
 I by which this prosecution had been set 
 ; on foot. He iiiniself, indeed, felt no 
 ' d sire for such an investigation; he 
 I wanted not, aftur so long an inquiry 
 I i to the conduct of the queen, to be 
 j ltd into an inquiry as to tl»e proceed- 
 ings of Hanoveri in ministers. Those, 
 however, who pro|)osed to say ' Con- 
 tent' to the second leading of a bill 
 like this, were bonn i to assure them- 
 selves I hat it had been brought f.^r- 
 I ward by just, legitimate, and con- 
 j stitntioiial means. 
 
 I The MarquisoffANSDOWN agreed 
 I that the evidence iu question was not 
 
412 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 admissible, in consequence of iho rule 
 "which I hey had themselves previously 
 laid down. 
 
 The house then divided : — Con- 
 tents, Ih* — Non-contents, 145 — M«ijority 
 against the motion, 129. 
 
 The house immediately adjourned 
 till Thursday morning. 
 
 THE LETTERS OF BARON D'OMP- 
 TEDA. 
 
 Rome, Feb. 24,18 19. 
 
 " Sir, — covincod of your amiable 
 complaisance, of which you have al- 
 ready given decisive proofs, I venture 
 to ask a favor of you. It is my wish 
 thai the enclosed letter, written by 
 the late Swiss femme de chambre, 
 inadanie De Mont to her relative who 
 is still in tiie service of tlie princess 
 (and who, according!; to the address is 
 called Mariette Bron, althoug-h I be- 
 lieve that she is alo called lie Mont), 
 may be delivered according to the di- 
 rection which I have received, that is 
 to say into the hands of Bron herself, 
 without the knowledge of the princess 
 and of her confidants, who intercept 
 all letters addressed to persons of her 
 suite. You will doubtless find means 
 of conveying the letter to the girl 
 without her knowing that the autho- 
 rities of Pesaro have had any thing to 
 do with it, and also without her learn- 
 ing that it< had passed through my 
 hands ; and it would be well, perhaps, 
 to lead her to suppose that the letter 
 "Has sent from Bologna. The person 
 "who delivers it to her should otfer to 
 take charge of her answer, which you 
 would be good enough to transmit to 
 me, and which I shall forward ac- 
 cording to its address. What is doing 
 with you? I make no doubt of the 
 bustle and trouble which the length of 
 the jjrincess's fatiguing visit occasions. 
 Use your ende, vours, therefore, to [ 
 make her embark, and try to persuade 
 her that it is absolutely false that the 
 English gentlemen propose to come and 
 lind her at Pesaro. 1 learn that that 
 supposition induces her io delay her 
 departure, and 1 think that in this 
 manner she might wait a long time. Be 
 assured, Sir, how alive 1 am to all your 
 proceedings, and believe me, with sen- 
 timents of the most perfect esteem, 
 Your very humble 
 
 and ol edient servant. 
 B'OMPTEDA, Minister of Hanover." 
 
 ** P. S. Is' Hieronymus, the maitre 
 d'hotel, still with the piiace^? wad 
 
 do you think that he still is attached to 
 
 her? 
 
 ** To Monsieur la Chevalier Bischr, 
 Director-General of the Police at 
 Pesaro." 
 
 Romcy March 6. 181 9. 
 " Sir, — 1 have received with much 
 gratitude your lines of the 28th, and 
 regret extremely the embarrassment 
 and the trouble imposed upon you by 
 the favor which 1 requested of you. I 
 hasten, in consequence, to tell you that 
 1 decide for the measure which you 
 propose in entrusting the letter to a 
 person of your acquaintance, who 
 would hand it to madame B., without 
 enjoining any other secrecy than that 
 the delivery of it may not be seen by 
 the family of the baron. If Hierony- 
 mus were to see it, I do not tiiink that 
 there would be much danger. The 
 essential point is, that the girl should 
 be informed of the contents. If after- 
 wards, by any folly or treachery, it 
 should come Io ihe knowledge of the 
 princess, the misfortune would not be 
 great. We must end^avui-, however, 
 as much as possible, to avoid such an 
 inconvenience I desire only that the 
 person whom you may choose to exe- 
 cute the commission should have suffi- 
 cient address, and inspire sufficient 
 confidence, 'o enable him to deliver the 
 answer which madame D. will return 
 to the letter in question, and in re- 
 spect to which 1 am anxious that it 
 should jass thronifb my hands. It ap- 
 pears to me that the attempt of ttie 
 English at Milan rests on a very false 
 conjecture. Have the goodness to tell 
 me your opinion of it, as well as of the 
 dispositions of N. Olivieri towards the 
 princess, whose service he quits. What 
 opinion is to be formed of Vassali ? I 
 learn, likewise, that several new Ro- 
 man seivants have been received, whose 
 names I should be curious to know. 
 Excuse all the trouble to which I put 
 you; not being able to testify to you 
 sufficiently how grateful I am for all 
 the proofs of your zeal, and for the 
 kindness of the jierson who has pro- 
 cured me .'o interesting an acquaint- 
 ance. With sentiments of the most 
 perfect esteem, 1 have the honor to be. 
 Sir, your very humble and obedient 
 tervant, 
 
 D'OMPTEDA. 
 " Addressed to Monsieur la Chevalier 
 Bischi, Director-General of the Police 
 of Pesaro." 
 
DEFENCE OF '^HE QUEEN, 
 
 413 
 
 THURSDAY, November 2. 
 
 Thia morniusf, at ten o'clock pre- 
 cisely, the Ljitl Chancellor look his 
 seat ou the woolsack, and prayers 
 were iiumediately after read. The 
 peers were ihei) called over. 
 
 SECOND READING OF THE BILL 
 OF PAINS AND PENALTIES. 
 
 The LOUD CHANCELLOR now 
 rose from the woolsack, aud walking 
 dowu the opposition side of the house, 
 took a St ttion at the table, almost im- 
 mediately beJ'i)re Lord Grey aud Lord 
 Holland. He addressed the house as 
 follows : — 
 
 My lords, — ^I'he question which we 
 are now called upon to decide, notwith- 
 standiu^ all thai has passed in the 
 course ol the proct-ediug, the only 
 question on which you are now to jiid^e, 
 is, whether this hill shall, or shall not, 
 be read a second time. Su^ijestions 
 have been made as to alterations iu it, 
 which would make it of a different 
 nature ; but I do confess, that, con- 
 siderinx the practice of the house, 
 founded as it is up(/n sound principles, 
 there is no other question to the deci- 
 sion of which .y"i( ^'^'^ uow address 
 yourselves, except the question, *' Shall 
 or shall not this bill be read a second 
 time }" JWy lords, the ordinary course 
 of proceediu*^ on bills which may, in 
 Eome respects, be likened to this (I 
 mean Divorce Bills), is, that you hear 
 the proofs of the aile«;ations contained 
 iu the bill, you hear the other .side, and 
 then the individual who has the honour 
 to sit on the woolsack, retires from the 
 table to the wo'>lsack. If he be of 
 opinion that the tacts alleged are true, 
 he iuiimates his opinion ; if any noble 
 4ord is of a different opinion, he de- 
 clares it ; aud the question is discussed 
 and decided by a division if necessary. 
 But if there is no noble lord of a dif- 
 feient opinion, then, as a matter of 
 course, the bill is read a second time. 
 Upon looking into the precedents, I 
 apprehend that your lordships may be 
 assured, without my stating any d juht 
 upon the subject, that the preamble of 
 the bill is usually postponed; and 
 before the que^^tion is put, it is quite 
 competent for it to be altered, an. I you 
 will find instances where the preamble 
 has been amended ; and you may also 
 amend and alter the enactmetkts, if it 
 is deemed expedient. But I should 
 couceive the character of the principle 
 on which tha( proceeds is^ that you 
 
 cannot alter the preamble of a bill, or 
 its ei:^ctmeats, except for the purpose 
 of mitigating the etfects of the enact- 
 ments at ti:st contained in the bill. 
 In atidress Hi: you now, my lords, and 
 I am sure I speak with a sincerity that 
 distresses n«e extremely, nothing in the 
 world w'ju'd induce me to trouble you, 
 it I did not feel that in the situation ia 
 wliich I siaud, I should be shrinking; 
 from a public duty if I were to attempt 
 to retire from so doing^. There aie 
 many consideraiicns — many indeed, 
 which would have induced me, lam 
 •urc, not only to withdraw, but not 
 1 veu to come near this discussion, if I 
 j did not feel impelled by a sense of 
 duty, which 1 trust in God is a right 
 one, to , discharore it, and therefore I 
 will. I take the liberty also of saying, 
 that I think no man can vote for a 
 second reading of this bill, if he does 
 not think the substantial parts of this 
 preamble are proved. I state it as my 
 immble opinion — as the opinion, how- 
 ever, which must govern me, that unless 
 I am satisfied an adulterous mtercourse 
 has taken place, I cannot vote for the 
 second readuig of this bill. I say 
 further, I do not think any noble lord 
 can vole for the second reading of the 
 bill, if he is not satisfied. Having so 
 stated, I shall now refer to the evi- 
 dence. I shall not go much into detail 
 of it, because there is no duty imposed 
 on me to what is called, '* sura up the 
 evidence ;" but my duty is to state my 
 opinion, and in that statement to refer 
 to those parts of the evidence on which 
 that opinion is fouTuled. We are judges, 
 we are jurors ; aud in the discussion 
 we are about to enter upon, it will not 
 proceed upon a summing-up of the 
 evidence, bwt upon the ground and 
 principle of declaring to each other our 
 opinioiis ; and discussing the grounds 
 on which those opinions are founded. 
 Now, cny lords, in the first place, much 
 has been stated iu the course of this 
 proceeding, on the subject of Bills of 
 Pains and Penalties. I do not mean 
 to enter into the discussions which 
 have taken nlace, as to the nature of 
 those bills, in the few words I shall 
 take tlje liberty of otFering. It has 
 been repeatedly urged in the course of 
 thei^e discussions, that Bills of Pains 
 and Penalties cannot be justified imless 
 called for by some great necessity of 
 the country. Now, my lords, I can 
 say, that on looking back, and looking 
 no further back than the period of the 
 
4U 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 . RevolMtinn, that Billa of Pains and Pe- 
 noliies have passed over atirt over 
 a>;aiu. when thcv ^vere not justified by 
 aj»y such necessity. There n«ay be 
 great occasion for passiti^ them where 
 the necessity (tescrihcd has uat existed; 
 and a i^reat many cases of this de- 
 scription have occur; ed. But, myl(»rds, 
 yn a former di>icnssi()n upon the sul)- 
 j*ct of Bills of Pains aud Penalties, ii 
 was veiy properly ar;;ucd — uiieu the 
 nature (if ihisi protee<itujj^ was under 
 €mjsidera;i<jn — whether it was not a 
 proceedrtij^- more favorable than any 
 tithcr winch could have been adopted. 
 £ am not now eiitt'riiij^^ into ihe cjuestiow 
 whether it is more or less consuin- 
 tfowal, but whether it is more favor- 
 able to the party accused than a pro- 
 ceediufi by impeachment. My loras, I 
 say that, if praperly proceeded in — 
 fey wiii^h 1 mean, if the inquiry shall be 
 carried on by the application of the 
 ordinary rides of evidence — if it shall 
 be conchicied by the ordinary rules and 
 prhiciple* of law, it is by far the more 
 iirrobjeetio-.ahle, as vel! as the more 
 favorable course to pursue. My lords, 
 if im]teaciHueut were the mode adapted 
 by proceedina: in tiie House of Coni- 
 Btous, one vote of that house would 
 fiecide wlieiher it was to be impeach- 
 ment cr not, and that vote would also 
 decide the question. Now, my lords, 
 ju a Bill of Pain> and Penalties, in the 
 first place, the charges contained in the 
 bitt would be examined by both houses, 
 and both houses would have an oppur- 
 innity of hearing: both sides and both 
 parties. Opportunities would also he 
 afforded to scrutinize the evidence, 
 and to judge how far it was consistent 
 with troth. But, my lords, it has been 
 stated, with very considerable weight, 
 that we arc submitiiuf^ the judgment 
 of this lu)use to the judiiment of the 
 Commons. My lords, I will ask whe- 
 \l)er tiie ^amc observation may not he 
 niade with regard to divorce bills ? 
 I do not state now whether this will 
 be a divorce bill or not — that must be 
 a subject to.- after consideration ; but 
 1 still ask whether, precisely the same 
 olijcction fflay not be taken to divorce 
 hills, atid other bilU, which go down 
 JFroin this house to the House of Com- 
 moiis, and whether we may not be 
 luvoheii in the ^ame sort of contra- 
 dicti(in with the House of Commons, 
 when tht-y come to examine the ques- 
 tif)ns with reference to the points upon 
 ^hich tUpse bills i^iay fap fwuuded? 
 
 My lords, passing on, however, another 
 complaint has been made, that in the 
 pro^re-s of this proceeding, the de- 
 fendant has not been furuiihed with a 
 specification of the charges, and with a 
 list of the wiiutsses by which those 
 charges were to be supported. 1 mei.-r 
 lion this because it has been urged, 
 that, in consequence of this omission, 
 the j)arty or person accused ha^ been 
 placed in a situation of difficidty. 
 Now, my lords, 1 say, whew it shall 
 appear that any such difficulty shall 
 have existed, it is your duty to give to 
 the party accused the benefit of that 
 fact, and pruportionably to inclitse in 
 her favonr (hear, hear, hear). But, at 
 the same tune, we ought not to raise a 
 difficulty where none really exists. My 
 lords, I ask, in what way possible could 
 these charges have been so usefully 
 communicated as in the caurse of the 
 inquiry, or in what way could the list [ 
 of the witnesses have been coramuuir 
 cated so eft'ectually as by producing 
 those witnesses at your lordships' bar — 
 and then postponing the defence, 
 which the party accused was called 
 upon to make, to that period to which 
 that par'y mii^ht choose to postpone 
 it ? I am prepared to admit that the 
 immediate cross-examination of a wit- 
 ness may be desirable—and with regard 
 to Rastelli, 1 have already expressed 
 ray opinion. But then, I say, that ihe 
 loss of immediate cross-examination is 
 greatly compensated by the advantage 
 of the'defendant hearing the whole of 
 the charges against her, and thea 
 choosing the period when she shall be 
 disposed to answer it. My lords, iu 
 this case it seems to me, that you are 
 bound to attend to the great principles 
 of British justice — principles which are 
 inseparably Ci>Hnected with every part 
 of our Cunstitution. — You are iu this^ 
 as iti every other case, to consider the 
 accused as innocent, until proved to be 
 guilty. It is }our lordships' boundeti 
 duty also to pronounce the party inno- 
 cent, unless you are ]^eriectly satisfied 
 that ihe has" been proved gudty. My 
 lords, you are likewise, in looking to 
 the nature of the evidence, to consider 
 the difficuliies' wliich belong to this 
 case. My lords, you will recollect, 
 that it has been urged that there has 
 been, or may have been, and taken foe 
 granted that there has, nuich more fa- 
 cility with respect to those who pro- 
 duced the witnesses iu suj port of this 
 bill, than there bas been oii the p^t of 
 
DBH^NCE OP THE QUEBN. 
 
 415 
 
 ilw)se whos€ duty it was to produce the 
 #itiie-;'ies in answer to the bill, it', 
 luy U)ri]s, you tliiiik thai this tircuui- 
 stauce has exi-:tc(J, in that csl^q the ac- 
 CM>etl oii'^ht to have the henefU of it. 
 (Hear, hear,) My lords, yon have 
 likewise a^ain to look at the cliarjce* 
 which have been broii^iit aj;;aiust tlie 
 witness Rastelli. TIjese char<>:es may 
 Lave been fi>iih(led in iniitnke, or he 
 may have u^^ed his influence to induce 
 panicular persons to jjive testimony at 
 your lordships* bar. It" your lordships 
 think the charirCs well founded, tliai is 
 a Circumstance also of which the ac- 
 CH-.ed is entitled to the benefit ; and so 
 witli every other circumstance wbrch 
 shall excite a reasonable and just sus- 
 picion in yoHf lordships* minds as to 
 the evidence which has been brou|jht 
 forward in support of thi»i bill, fhear, 
 hear). But ujy lords, the rule by which 
 I have formed my opinion is this ; 
 layinij aside all the testimony in thii 
 case which can be suspected, I have 
 addressed to myself this question, 
 ** Does the unsuspected evidence pro- 
 duced on tlie part of thosa w!io have 
 supported this l)ill, and the testimony 
 Hhich has been j^iven in answer to this 
 VII (and laying aside all doubtful evi- 
 dence wliich has been submitted on 
 both sides entirely out of my conside- 
 ration, ( ask myself) does the evidence 
 whi(;h stands unsu^pecred in snpf)ort of 
 the bill, and uncontradicted by that 
 called in the defence, taken altogether, 
 sustain the allegatiou of an adulteious 
 intercourse, or «loes it not }" It is 
 upon the view of tlie case, which I have 
 taken in this way, that I shail deliver 
 fue opinion, which, alter the most 
 painful attention, 1 have been induced 
 to form. (Hear, hear). I apprehend, 
 my h>rds, at least, so it seems to me, 
 tbat if you look to one or two of the 
 C-ises or circutnsiances which have 
 been proved— if yoa look to the circum- 
 stances which have been proved by 
 witnesses beyond susj>lcion, and to 
 whom suspicion has not attached during 
 the wht)le of this ease— I say, my 
 lords, if you took at the case iu this 
 point of view, that it does appear to 
 me, and I am sorry to say it, that you 
 cannot draw from' this evidence any 
 other conclusion :han that there has 
 been an adulterous intercourse. With 
 respect to contradictions, and the con- 
 tradictions which it may be said have 
 been given to the evidence, it has been 
 my duty very fretjuexitJy to coowdef the 
 
 I effect which contradictions may have 
 
 in summing up the juilgment, if I ukiv 
 
 use tlie expression, iu cases which hav« 
 
 j come under my oliS.'rvaiiun. It may 
 
 : often happen, in the course of a trial, 
 
 I that circtanstfiucfs are proved which 
 
 ' may liave no effect upon ihe real 
 
 «Iues!ion'at issue'j and it may alio 
 
 j happen that facts are alleged \vt,icl.' it 
 
 ' is impiiS'->ible f> r any party t<» cunira- 
 
 I diet. But in cases where {persons ar-« 
 
 i called who speak to a particular fact, 
 
 i other persons being pre'^ent, and no 
 
 contradic'ioa is <;ivrfj with re-pret to 
 
 tiiat fuet, (those persons heiir;r w ithra 
 
 I tiie reach of the party whose interest rt 
 
 ! is t«) disprove the fact), then, it appears 
 
 , to me, that the circuuistauce of the*« 
 
 I persons not beiuij called, amounts to 
 
 j a tacit admission that the fact s«» 
 
 i charged is incapable of contradietioa. 
 
 I Now, mylords, give ine leave for a mo- 
 
 j ment to lay out of the cise ail tl;e 
 
 j evidence which has been called iu siip- 
 
 I port of this bill —to lay <)nt of the case 
 
 j the evidence of Majochi and De Mont 
 
 j — (and when 1 desire that these pei- 
 
 I sous may be left out, I am not pr«- 
 
 I suming, nor meaning to admit, that 
 
 j both of ihese persons may not, in many 
 
 j circumstances, have S|)okt'n the truth,) 
 
 I but layout of the case the whole of 
 
 j this evidence, and travel with me to 
 
 { the polacca. N<»w, my lords, wlu> 
 
 ; went ou board the polacca with Iter 
 
 I royal highness ? There were Scliiavini, 
 
 Hier<mymus, Brou, the countess (;| 
 
 Oldi, Garlino, Camera, and Williaia 
 
 Austin. I think that your lordship.^ 
 
 will feel with me, that if we were tryiujp 
 
 the mere quesiitui, whether Uergamj 
 
 and the princess bicpt uinler the sank« 
 
 tent, or awning, whichoer you pleas* 
 
 to ca'l it, there could be no doubt uu 
 
 the «ui)ji'Cf. If that were the mec« 
 
 matter at isstie, yotir l(»rd>hips could 
 
 feel no dilBeulty in ileciding that such 
 
 was beyond all doubt the fact. I have 
 
 forgotten to uiention that this was 
 
 proved by the evidence of Flynn and 
 
 Huwnani, as well as by the witnesses 
 
 for the prosecution, so that no^ doubt 
 
 can remain. Now, wiih resprct to tlui 
 
 evidence given by the witnesses Pa- 
 
 turzo and the captcin, I do not know 
 
 that any observation has been maiU^ 
 
 ou it, but with respect to the compeiv- 
 
 satioU they are to receive for coming 
 
 here. 
 
 A peer rcn^arked, that there haA 
 been soiucthin^ mo;c obj>v(^ted to. 
 Ihetu. 
 
41G 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR pro- 
 ceeded : A noljle lord observes there 
 is something: more against those wit- 
 nesses, 1 cnn only say, that when I 
 hear what that son'Cthing more is, I 
 shall give it every attention in my 
 power; and as many oppoitUMities will 
 be offered for correcting my opinion, 1 
 shall not fail lo do so, if that which I 
 have overlooked, with respect to these 
 witnesses should make it my duty, 
 and I shall be happy to give the ac- 
 cused the benefit of any change that 
 this may produce in my opinion. At 
 present, 1 can only speak of the case 
 sis 1 know it; when I shall have better 
 Information respecting it, on that in- 
 formation I shall act. As to the pay 
 which Gargiulo and Paturzo are to re- 
 ceive, I thiijk it right to say that you 
 cannot have foreign witnesses lirought 
 to your b;ir, without dealing with them 
 differently from the manner in which 
 you treat your own, for sou have no 
 compulsory means of bringing them 
 before you. It is therefore necessary to 
 pay them for their time, as otlierwise 
 you could not expect them to come. 
 Witnesses who are not foreigner*, can 
 be compelled to attend v«ithout receiv- 
 ing any remuneration for loss of time, 
 the law {! will not say whether wi?ely 
 ornot) having only taken care of phy- 
 sicians and lawyers in such a case, and 
 they alone can claim to be allowed for 
 loss of time. Looking at this, then, 
 give me leave lo suppose that Gargiulo 
 s^ud Paturzo prove the fact (I put it as 
 an hypothesis) that the queen and b'er- 
 gami slept under the same tent for five 
 "weeks — supposing this to be true, how 
 easily might they have been contra- 
 dicted by other witnesj-es. This, how- 
 ever, instead of being contradicted, has 
 been confirmed by IJownam and I lynu ; 
 and nnt only have they confirnied it, 
 but the manner in which the proof was 
 obtained from them at the close o\' tlieir 
 testimony, proves, fronj the reluctance 
 with which they stated the fact, how 
 important it was in their estimation 
 Jf Bergami had not reposed with the 
 queen, this could have bein pro\cd by 
 every one that I have named. Who 
 akpt below while tht-y w< re on board 
 the polacca .' Countess Ohii, the ser- 
 vants, and all the persons 1 have men- 
 tioned, and therefore, as they have not 
 been called, 1 will ask, is it possible 
 for any one to say that we have not po- 
 ititive evidence that Bergtimi did not 
 sle^p belov dujriog the h^ weeks 
 
 which the witnesses for the prosecution 
 stated him to have passed under the 
 tent. It is to be sure quite a ditlerent 
 consideration, whether sleeping under 
 the tent, from that and various other 
 circumstances proved by unsuspected 
 wimes'ses, tluir lordships would be jus- 
 tified in drawing the inference, that 
 the act of adultery had actually taken 
 place. Vour lordships, however, will 
 feel it to be your duty to keep in mind 
 what has bt-en sworn to have taken 
 place at Auni, and you will also bear in 
 recollection the nieasures taken to se- 
 cure the contiguity of the bed-cham- 
 bers of her royal highness and Bergami 
 at almost every place which they vi- 
 sited fn tlie circumstances of fami- 
 liarity which have been sworn to, there 
 is no proof of adultery, but as these 
 may seem to had to that intercourse 
 which the parlies are charged with 
 having carried on, you are to bear them 
 in mind, as well as all the proofs of 
 the ei<'v&tion of Bergami: nor are you 
 to confine your view to the elevation of 
 Bergami himself, but you must look to 
 the extraordinary elevation of all the 
 individuals of his family. Vour lord- 
 ships will not t)verlook the very im- 
 portant fact of the ifitroduction of the 
 countess of Oldi to the esta -lishment 
 of the princess, as a person of qu.lity, 
 without any of the suite being pos- 
 sessed witli a I Tiowledge of her being 
 the sister of Bergami. 1 he introduc- 
 tion of this per-on was a most extra- 
 ordinary cir< umstance. It is strange, 
 and, in my mii»d it is a strong fact 
 against the accused, that the countess 
 Oldi was thus jilaced in the interme- 
 diate situation which she was to fill, 
 bctwei'U the queen and Bergami, with 
 this caution and concealment. I would 
 now direct your lordships' attention to 
 the evidence of Ciargiulo, at page 117. 
 ft will there be found, that, after speak- 
 ing of the distribution of tl»e cabins on 
 board the polacca, ou the outward 
 voyage, c< rtain alterations were made 
 with respect to the cabins, by order of 
 lier royal highness, and such a change 
 was made, that the queeu could see 
 l^ergami in his >>ed when slie occupied 
 hers, and be seen by him from his. 
 This testimony has not been disproved. 
 I will now call your attention to ;; part 
 of the evidence of Mr. Flynn. He states 
 the situation in which the different 
 persons in the suite of her royal high- 
 ness slept on the passage out ; he knows 
 where every oue of them slept on that 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEE^. 
 
 417 
 
 voyage. Now, I say, read liis evid« nee . 
 thr.nijjii, Hni\ ask, liow is it possible j 
 l.iat this man could give such direct ! 
 evidence ou this subject on the out- j 
 ward voyajje, and >et know nothinj;, or 
 uearly nothing, of the arrangements 
 made for tlie voyage home. Looking 
 at this, and ri inembeiiug how the fact 
 has been proved by other witnes.es, 
 can any inlere.ice be drawn but one — 
 namely, that the parties did sleep un- 
 der the same tent or awning together. 
 In the evidenie of Hownam, 1 remark 
 the same backwardness to speak on 
 this subject. How often was t>' asked 
 where the parties reposed, before he 
 admitted that the queen and iiergami 
 slept under the same teut. If there 
 had existed any necessity for this, to 
 account for it in a manner creditable 
 to the accused, wwild not these gen 
 tlemen cognisant, as they were, of the 
 evidence which had been given on this 
 sut.jeet, have stated it to the house? 
 If it were necessiJy that dictat«>d such 
 • an arrangement, and that necessity 
 were known, how came those witnesses 
 to have such difficulty in con^muni- 
 catiiig ail they knew on this subject to 
 the house r U ha? been positively sworn 
 that her royal highness and Bergami 
 had been seated on a gun and on a 
 bench on the deck of tlie polacca, with 
 their arms round each other and kiss- 
 ing, and this has not been contradicted. 
 Permit me to say, unless I have greatly 
 misunderstood the divorce cases that 
 have come before me fbut few sucli 
 ca-ics have been before me in the lower 
 courts, though more than I could have 
 vrished), the adultery has always been 
 inferred when there has been proof that 
 the parties have slept together in the 
 same place for five or six weeks. The 
 whole of the circumstances are to be 
 taken into consideration. The proofs 
 of what, in the language of the law, is 
 called the tempus and the loaiin, are to 
 be kept in view, it being always" re- 
 , , membered that the question is not, 
 t whether the parties have been seen in 
 I the act of adultery, hut whether, under 
 I all the circumstances, the inference 
 
 f- does not necessarily arise that an adul- 
 terous intercourse must have taken 
 place. If jou look at the evidence, you 
 will find it stated that the tent was low- 
 ered by day, while her royal highness 
 and Bergami were under it. Gargiulo 
 was asked by whose directions this was 
 I done, and his answer your lordships 
 wlU rciuetnber was, that tb« teut had 
 
 been lowered by directions from Schia- 
 villi. Now, I beg lo ask, if the evi- 
 dence of C.arg'ulo and I'aturzo ought 
 all to be thrown a- ay, in coiisequenc« 
 of the bargain made to remunerate 
 them tor coming here, .when it is clear 
 that they could have been so easily 
 contradicted, if what they hal stated 
 was other tlian the truth. He (Gar- 
 giulo) was asked who gave the orders 
 for lowering the tent during the day, 
 and he answers Schiavini. Did Schia- 
 vini give such an order, or did he not? 
 If he did not, why was he not called to 
 contradict Gargiulo ? As this has not 
 been done, his absence must be re- 
 garded, as ttnditig to coztlinn the evi- 
 dence of Garginlo iind Paiurzo. Can 
 you find in the evidence any fact proved 
 tiat made it necessary for the tent to 
 be let down in the course of the day ? 
 If no necessi;y is proved to have been 
 acted upon, what could be the reason 
 for shutting up the tent two or three 
 times during the day, and of their re- 
 tiring beneatli it for an hour, or an 
 hour and a half together? The wea- 
 ther at this time is said to have beea 
 perfectly calm — the air so light as 
 scarcely to rutHe tlie tide. Then where, 
 1 ask, could be the necessity for thu* 
 letting down the tent during the day > 
 1 cannot consume your lordships' tune 
 by going through all the evidence; but 
 r must call your attenthm to facts 
 which could have been so easily contra- 
 di ted. You, i hope, will turn ov«r in 
 ; your own minds what has been stated 
 I with respect to ti.e awning or tent on 
 j the deck, and the apartments below. 
 j Why were not thoj,e who' slept beneath 
 I the deck called ? It was said their 
 nerves are too delicate to meet a cross- 
 I examination. This excuse for the r 
 non-appearance your lordships can 
 ' never admit as a satisfactory reasiya for 
 ' their not being brought before you. It- 
 t is, hovvever,^righi to state that the cir- 
 i cumstances on boui'd the polacca are^ 
 I not to be taken by themselves. Your 
 i lordships will give me leave to call ott 
 ; you to look a little at the case at 
 Aum. Allow what you please for the 
 ' fatigue of the journey, aftd the situa- 
 tion lier royal highness was placed ia 
 at the tiifie, and then, I will asU, what 
 could possibly induce a person of any 
 pretensions to character, having One 
 tent within another, to have a man to 
 repose with her in the Inner tent. She' 
 had Thetnlore Majocchi on one side, 
 and Gufflioo (who has nut beeu «a^d)- 
 
4l« 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEX, 
 
 on the other. She was therefore per- 
 fectly &«cure from clanger; and 1 will 
 therefore ask, what j)ossible occasion 
 Gculd tljere he for Bcrjfauii heiug; taken 
 into the inner tent P Without hiai she 
 ■was sufficiently protected, for here 
 there was no tossinj^' of the sea — 
 wo heaving- of the ship, to nialve his 
 services necessary. Then, my lords, 
 as to the character, the merits, and the 
 qualifications of the person raised to 
 such pre-eminence and « onsirieration^ 
 how are vve to aceouut for such an ex- 
 traordinary piomotion? There is a 
 great ditference between the case of a 
 person promoted after a life spent in 
 labour, in fidelity, and in the merito- 
 rious discharge of important services, 
 aiid tlie case under consideration. Jt 
 is one of the great blessings of the con- 
 stitution under wnich we live, that the 
 highest situations in tl.e country are 
 accessible to th se whose merits, and 
 whose talents, render tlien» worthy of 
 pre-eminence. But thai view of the 
 subject is wholly inapplicable to tlie 
 ca«e of the individual aHuded to — who 
 has not only himself been raised to tliis 
 liigh distinction, but every member of 
 whose family, with one excej;ti(.n only, 
 has shared in the prosperity which has 
 attended him. Look, my lords, to the 
 evidence of Mr. Craven, and Sir VVm. 
 tiell, and Sicard. bicarcJ, who gave his 
 testimony, in a manner, which 1 think 
 did him great c;edit, states to your 
 lordships the manner in which this 
 man entered her majesty's service, and 
 the nature of the advantages he was 
 taugiit to expect. He tul<l your lord- 
 ships that Bergami was engaged as a 
 courier, to go merely to Naples, with 
 a promise of recommendation, if his 
 conduct was approved, but nothing 
 more. Mr. Craven's evidence upon this 
 point was, that liergami was told he 
 might hope to be promoted, and Sir 
 W. Cell's that he mig!>t hope to be con- 
 siderably advanced. Hut, my lords, was 
 tliis all that happened to this man—- 
 did he remain in that state of humble 
 expectation? 1 a^k your lordships whe- 
 ther in t> e world there was ever such 
 an instance of promotion as this case 
 presents — where the who'e family of 
 this man, with one exception, and that 
 bis wif^, is raised tn distinction and 
 affluffice ? The coaclusiou to be drawn 
 from such a state of things, 1 leave 
 jvur lordships to judge. You find from . 
 the proceedings iu support of the bill 
 tiiU i^et'<! ttre eight or uimq witnesses^ 
 
 every one of whom, with reference td 
 the facts to which they depost-d, re- 
 mains uncontradif ted ; and there is urn 
 impeacbmei.t of their general charac-; 
 ter, or their p irticular conduct, unless 
 you act upon bare suspicion, >uggested 
 in argument and observation. There 
 ap) ears, however, in point of evidence, 
 no ground upon which you can -.afely 
 act in saying, that they are not to be 
 believed. Why, then these witnesses 
 speak to acts 'of familiarity, which un- 
 doubtedly in many instances may exist, 
 without any act of adultery having been 
 committed; but which when coupled 
 with the opportunities afforded for the 
 commission of the act, from the con- 
 tiguity of bed-rooms and other circum- 
 stances, are such as must lead the mimt 
 of eve,-y man of plain sense and com- 
 mon understanding to the irresistibl* 
 conclusion, that a criminal intercourse 
 had taken place. 1 his inference must 
 always be drawn under such circuni - 
 stances as have been proved in e\ ►« 
 dcnce. But, my lords, 1 wish to know 
 why is not Ber^jami himself yuoduced ? 
 It is said, he cannot be produced. That 
 I deny. I say i e might be y>roduced ; 
 and in the case that has been alluded 
 to in the course of this inquiry. Major 
 lloo. e was produced. >y lords, }o» 
 have had cases at your lordships' i;ar 
 where the adulterers themselves have 
 been called to prove the adultery. Then, 
 I ask }OU, what are you not to infer, 
 not only from the absence of every 
 member of this family, and of all other 
 witnesses, to prove innocence, but 
 from the absence of a mati who, if i>e 
 were innocent, has imposed upon him 
 an obligation to A\hich no individual 
 was ever before subjected — an obliga- 
 tion imposed upon liim by all the 
 n»ighty favours he had received, by all 
 the circumstances of benefit he has 
 enjoyed — an obligation, of a nature the 
 most transcendant, to come before ^our 
 lordships as a witness on behalf of his 
 illustrious mistress? If, then, he might 
 come — and if be has this powerful ob- 
 ligation pressing upon him to come — [ 
 ask, why he did not come? There are 
 many* circumstances iu the case to 
 which 1 have not alluded, and to which 
 1 do not mean to allude. But, refer- 
 ring to the leading features of tiie case 
 —referring to what occurred at Seni- 
 gaglia, at the Villa d'Este, at Trieste, 
 at Carlsrhue, and in Catania, and at- 
 tending to the evidence of all the wi<- 
 Dess6« who have heca examined iu »up- 
 
u>/r/y 
 
 07:M/y?2£y. 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEI?, 
 
 419 
 
 port of these leading- features — attendiDg- 
 t« the acts of familiarity proved, and 
 ixrt attempted to be denied — attendin<»- 
 to tlie extraordinary promotion of this 
 jnan, and every member of his family, 
 \Tith one exception -and, lastly, at- 
 tending- to the evidence of what oc- 
 curred on board tlie polacca, 1 cannot 
 ■withdraw myself from what appears to 
 lue to be my imperative duty, namely, 
 to express my firm belief that an adul- 
 terous intercourse has taken place. I 
 ^Xj»re«s this opinion, because the con- 
 clusion is pejfectly eonsislent with the 
 case stated and the facts proved, taking- 
 for my guide that principle of law laid 
 down, that the circumstances must be 
 fi'nch as that a reasonable and plain man, 
 »ddr<ssinof himself dispassionately to the 
 c^'Usideralion of the case, cannot doubt 
 of the guilt imputed. One word more, 
 4nd with that I shall close what I have to 
 ;iddress te your lardships. As to what 
 has passed within jhese door-, upon this 
 case, I am disposed to say nothinj^; 
 neither will I take any no ice of what 
 has passed out of d.iors, because I am 
 Itot supposed h«re to know it — but I will 
 say this, that whatever has happened, or 
 whatever may happen, 1 will do my duty 
 tiere according- to my sense of duty. I 
 was sorry tiiat yolir lordships should 
 hare heard at your bar, from the moutlj 
 of a learned advocate, something hike a 
 tlireat as to the ctmsequences which 
 might follow the decision of this ca^e in 
 favor of the bill (hear, hear). Such a 
 tiireat I am persuaded will have no ef- 
 fect upon your lordships in the faithful 
 dischar^re of y/)ur duty ; and that what- 
 ever may be your decision, yon will to 
 the last feel it imperative on you *< to be 
 just, and fear not." (Hear, hear). 
 
 After a short pause, lord KRSKINE 
 rose, ia answer to theuoble and learned 
 lonl. He suid, that the exhortation of 
 the noble lord to keep the balai(^^ 
 even, in trying; this as a question of 
 justice, was cumiletely at variance 
 with the early parts of mis proceeding, 
 when her majesty's name wa. excluded 
 from the prayers of the country, an 
 act which was diametrically opposite 
 to the spirit of justice. The noble 
 farl opposite, had strenuously contended 
 that tlie imputed crime could not be 
 brought under the charj;e of treason; 
 because it was alleged to have been 
 committed with a for-isncr abroad. 
 He confessed that the noble earl had so 
 ^bly argued in support of that point, 
 that ho bcguQ to doubt thiM bis owu 
 
 opinion was erroneously {^rounded ; 
 but from subsequent research, he had 
 found that his impression that impeach- 
 ment would lie, was coirect. They 
 could have proceeded by impeachment, 
 and tlie motive which induced h s ma- 
 jesty's ministers to prefer a bill of 
 Pains and Penalties, was too palpable 
 to be misconceived ; they knew, in that 
 case, that the proceeding must have 
 originated in the House of Commons. 
 That house had bad thf* papers laid 
 before it; and he and their lordships 
 were aware, that they would not au- 
 vaj:ce a step further, aiid^that those of 
 his majesty's ministers who had. seats 
 there were parties to a resolution, de- 
 clari^o- that the proposed iavesti«-alioa 
 would be '* derog-alory to the dign'ity 
 of the crown, and injurious to the best 
 interests of the empire." And this re. 
 solntion was iirg-od on giounds, that 
 contamination of public morals would 
 ensue, that the people were surround- 
 ing the house, complaining of the in«. 
 jurious tendency of the proposed mea- 
 sure (and they were still complaining,) 
 and the consideration of its universal 
 unpopularity. The resolution passed, 
 and was conveyed, by deputation to 
 the queen, and her majesty refused to 
 accept the address of that house on 
 grounds which could not be questioned. 
 She had stated in her reply, that '* an 
 entire reconcilement of those differ- 
 ences, ettooted by the authority of 
 parliament, on principles consistent 
 with the honor and dignity of all the 
 panic?, is still the dearest to my 
 heart;" and further " as an accused 
 and injured queen, I owe it to the king^, 
 to myself, and to all my fellow sub- 
 jects, not to consent to the sacrifice of 
 any essenttal i)rivilege." Now this 
 ** essential privilege," was the prema- 
 ture and unjustifiable erasure of her 
 name from the liturgy. Had that ua- 
 warraulable measure been redeemed 
 by its resforalioii, the queen would 
 have accepted the address, and the 
 country would have been spared an 
 inquiry fraught wiih so much mischief. 
 It was the duty of his majesty's minis- 
 ters to have restored it; the success of 
 the resolution, to which they had vo- 
 luntarily become parties, was in their 
 power ; tbey could have done away 
 with the ditliculty which was a bar to 
 an amicable adjustment, and have dis- 
 played their justice by holding the 
 beam with equal hand. They, how- 
 evcf, pertinaciously peisisted wi^h 
 
420 
 
 DEFENCE OP THE QUEEI^. 
 
 their bill of Pains and Penalties, be- 
 cause the other house had shewn their 
 hostility to any investigation ; it was 
 now lo be read a second and a third 
 lime, and of course lo be sent down to 
 the cotnnions ; but could their lord- 
 sbips reasonably expect that the lower 
 house would entertain it, afler having 
 been told in the tirst place, that tliey 
 should iKJt proceed by impeaciiineut, 
 and. had almost unanim».usly declared, 
 that tliey Would not proceed to the 
 inquiry ? 
 
 Here the noble lord exhibited symp- 
 toms of strong indisposition, and a 
 pause of a minute or twt) took place. 
 His lordship then attempted to resumr, 
 but, after a few w(»rds, sunk down and 
 fainted away.. He was caught in his 
 fall by some of the peers near him ; the 
 ■windows were opened, and a ghiss oi 
 Mater brought, bnt his lordship con- 
 tinued so ill, that he was obliged to be 
 borne out by Mr. barou Garrow and 
 earl Grey. 
 
 Lord LAUDERDALE suggested that 
 ^he house should adjourn for a quarter 
 «f an hour. 
 
 The house adjourned accordingly. — 
 On the house resuming', 
 
 The lord CHANCELLOR said, that 
 he could not allow the dcbite to go 
 farther without saying a word in ex~ 
 3)lanation. Hi, noble and learned 
 friend (loid Erskine), whose absence, 
 and (he cauje of it, no man more sin- 
 cerely lutnente :, iiad argued as if )ie 
 (the Lord Chancellor) had stated that 
 the case on board the polacca formed 
 the whole case foi the prosecution. He 
 had said no such thing-. All he had 
 ineant to say was, that that case alone 
 had sufficed lo determine his individual 
 judgrat'nt. 
 
 iord LAUDERDALE now pro- 
 ceeded to address their Iordshij)s. He 
 felt almost completely overawed by the 
 \veight; of the subject ; and the only 
 consideration whicli sustained him was. 
 that by the constitution of the house, 
 every man was supposed to be quail- 
 lied to judge of a plain question of 
 evidence. He would not follow the 
 example of his noble and learned 
 friend (lord Erskine}, in making the 
 whole proceeding a means of attack on 
 his niajf'sty's ministers, Hp was as 
 ready as any of his friends to take any 
 party advau age of ministers'; but in a 
 t|uestion of this sort he discarded every 
 , thing like party feeling (hear). He 
 il4d come tp ilie qjicction as perfectly 
 
 deternriined to do his duty conscien- 
 tiously, as if he had never acted as a 
 party-man through the whole course of 
 his life (hear). The principle by which 
 he felt bound to look at the case, was 
 that laid down in the case quoted at 
 the bar, Lovedcn again-st Loveden. He 
 did not ask for a dir« ct evidence of the 
 perpetration of the act of adultery ? 
 ail he asked, was sucii evidence m 
 woulil satisfy any man of plain com- 
 mon sense. Was there, then, such evi- 
 dence? He was as decidedly, as 
 honestly convinced there was. lie had 
 never known in any case a combination 
 of circumstances so strongly leading to 
 the conclusion of guilt. In proceeding 
 to comment on the evidence, he would 
 lay entirely out of his consideration 
 the whole mass of evidonee for the 
 prosecution, and coniine himself to 
 what was established by the evidence 
 fi>r the defence ; f<»r even by that evi- 
 dence he C()nceived the fact of adultery 
 to be demonstrated beyond Iho pos- 
 sibility of a doubt — at least in the 
 minds of thoe who chose lo look at 
 the case fairly atid dispassionately. In 
 doing this, lie would be aljle to get at 
 the whole history of liie heio of t!ie 
 tale, Mr. Bergami. The noble lord 
 here proceeded to recite and comment 
 on ihe eircuinst anoes of Bergami's 
 elevation, as proved by the evidence 
 for ihe defence. His lordship laid par- 
 ticular weight on Ihe caution which 
 Mr. Kepj)el (Graven had presumed to 
 give to her majesty, as to being seen 
 walking with Bergami, when he was in 
 the situation of a courier. He had 
 ofien heard women reproved for walk- 
 ing abroad without a servant, but this 
 was the first time he had ever heard of 
 a lady being cautioned against being 
 seen walking with one. Cuuld their 
 lordships doubt what the peculiar rea- 
 son was which operated wi(h Mr 
 Craven ? Could they doubt that it was 
 because of a suspicion on his mind of 
 that adulterous intercourse which the 
 bill isnputed to her majesty ? If h^ 
 had not had such an impression — if 
 there had not been some such reason, 
 he would have deserved dismissal foy 
 daring to offer counsel so unbecoming 
 in a chamberlain to a lady of her ma- 
 jesty's rank and character. The noble 
 lord next directed the at(entiun of their 
 lordships to the introduction of so many 
 persons of Bergami's family into the 
 service of her ipajesty. The appoint- 
 ment of the oouulesb Oldi lo the siiu^-r 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 421 
 
 tion of solo lady of honor, was most 
 powerful evidence of guilt. Secrets 
 between young gentlemen and young- 
 ladies often led to danuer ; but here was 
 a secret confined to the breasts of a 
 princess and lier servant. He hoped ho 
 was not exa<(gerating; ; but really this 
 fact struck him as very strongf. What ! 
 a secret hrtween a princess and a per- 
 son who had entered her service hut five 
 months before for a job! I The noble 
 lord then proceeded to comment upon 
 the evidence of Mr. Hownain, who,, he 
 «aid, had dexterously avoided the ac- 
 knowledgment that any entcrtuiniMeul had 
 tuken place on St, Hurtholomew's Day 
 ou board. In that evidence the g-rossest 
 prevarication had been made. As to the 
 theatre, Ilowniun's recollection had been 
 g-uilty of treachery. He had not r«?col- 
 lected whether her royal highness played 
 eolunibine^ but he remembered that she 
 played an automaton, a thing thai could 
 ' be wound up to any tiling; and she was 
 sold as a machine I One of her visitors 
 had t^ken notice of his figure, but for- 
 got every other circumstance attending 
 him. It was yet to be learned how the 
 circumstance of appearing with a sword 
 drawn when there was a fear of robbers, 
 could have entitled Bergami to such dis- 
 tinction. ThenJhere was the change 
 iu the apartments Oil board the Leviathan. 
 It would be recollected that lady C. 
 Lindsay said, that in the Clorinde her 
 royal highness's female attendants slept 
 near her ; but, on board the Leviathan, 
 the most suspicious arrangements had 
 taken placf, and captain Pechell lefused 
 ^o sit at the table, in consequence of the 
 fact that this courier, who had waited at 
 table on a former occasion, had been dig- 
 nified to a seat at it. Capt. Pechell had 
 acted by this refusal in a manner highly 
 creditable to himself (hear, liear). Why, 
 nothing would then gratify the liberal 
 feeling of her royal highness, but the 
 keeping a separate table for the enter- 
 tainment of this higlhy-favored man. The 
 noble lord then called their lordships' 
 attention to tlie evidence of lieutenant 
 Flynn and Mr. llownam, which proved 
 liow far those volunteer witnesses ex- 
 posed themselves, and to what credit 
 they were entitled. He read that part of 
 Mr. Hownam's evidence which stated 
 that the witness had not observed whe- 
 ther, on St. Bartbolomew's day, Uor- 
 gami and the queen had walked arm in 
 arm on the deck — that they walked as 
 usual — that they might have walked arm 
 in aim, ^c. f his the noble lord culled 
 
 the grossest prevarication ; and unless 
 t!ie evidence of Mr. Hownam was con- 
 tiruied, lie could not credit a word of it. 
 liuleed, their lordships were to maUe a 
 choice between Flynn and Hownam upon 
 several poiijts, for they were in many in- 
 slan es quite opposed to each other. His 
 lordship next adverted to the necessity 
 that a persiMi should sleep near her ma- 
 jesty on board the polacca, aifd c(»m- 
 ujeiited with great severity upon the 
 evidence of Mr. llownam as to that sub- 
 ject. Tlmt witness had, he said, admitted, 
 in one place, that no danger existed j 
 and in another, liiat ithad — in one place 
 he said the crew were to be suspected, 
 and in another that they were not. 
 Now if IIh re was no mystery in the lent 
 in which her majesty lay, there never 
 had appeared before the public two 
 more- perjured witnesses than HownaDi 
 and Flyjin. The noble lord thei> ani- 
 madverted on the testimony of lieutenants 
 ll<»wnanjand Flynn, whom he designated 
 as two precious witnesses, and who con- 
 tradicted each other. The evidence for 
 the defence had been incomplete so far 
 as related to the polacca : and yet Oldi, 
 Broil, Ilieronymus, Austin, Schiavini, 
 and Came I a, had not been called. The 
 fact was. Unit lieutenant Hownam's evi- 
 dence in favor of the intercourse on 
 board the polacca was supported by five 
 other witnesses. There had been little, 
 very little done, to impeach the evidence 
 of Myjochi and De Monl, much as he 
 had been abused. Majoclii's evidence 
 was more connected than that of many 
 of the witnesses, but he hod said ' non 
 mi ricordo,' and this had been made the 
 ground of a very unjustifiable attack. 
 But, in a manner to impress the public 
 mind, it was stated that he had been 
 contradicted by a Mr. Hyatt, a Mrs. 
 Hughes, a Mr Ihighes, a banker's clerk, 
 and by u Mr. Godfrey, with whom he 
 had t;a veiled in a stage coach : and yet 
 not one of these persons had been 
 called, which would have been the 
 case if they could have contradicted 
 Majiichi. (Jarring on had been called 
 to contradict Majochi j hut Carriug- 
 ti)n's a3!>erii<»n as to his being a mid- 
 shi[imaH, was c<»iitradicied by Sir John 
 Bcre^ilord, and Carriugion was not a 
 witness entitled to any credit. The 
 noble lord next adverted to the balls 
 at the Barona and at Naples, and on 
 the elevation of Bergami, whom Sir 
 William Gell considered as a ;;eutle- 
 man, and so polite that he would light 
 hiin du'M) stairs with two caudles. The 
 
422 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 noble lord (Lauderdale) uext alluded 
 to the chauf^e in the apartments at 
 Naples, aud the evidcuce of Made- 
 moiselle De MoDt, it] seeing the prin- 
 cess pass fiMru Uerj^ami's room to her 
 own, with pillows under her arn). This 
 evidence was conclusive, inasmuch as 
 ifc mi°:ht have been contradicted by 
 correct testimony, Ke alluded to the 
 letter ol De Mont, who was anxious to 
 serve her sister, and who, in a letter to 
 the priiiceaS, exjtressed lier g-iatiiude 
 to her nrul to Bergami. Was not this 
 Biiij^uiar ? Would any one who had 
 received favours from her late majesty, 
 return a joint letter of thanks to the 
 queen, aiid to the earl cif Morton. The 
 case of Aunj was the next he would 
 jjolice ; aud it was in the evi>!ence of 
 Wajochi and De Mont that the j)riucess 
 aud iierjiarni slept under the tent; and 
 alt huushHieronyujuSjSchiaviui, Austin, 
 ai;d all the knights of St. Caroline 
 were there, not one of them had been 
 called to contradict their statement. 
 He had ^oue niuch into the cxamina- 
 tton of the evidence, not frmii any 
 -weight which he thouiht hi- views of i\, 
 nii|;ht have, but that the country might 
 know the grounds on which he gave 
 his vote. He disclaimed ail view^ of 
 personal interest, awd said he had been 
 pestered with accusations of this sort. 
 It had been said he was i^^oing out to 
 India, aud a medical gentleman had 
 applied to be his physician ; but he 
 declared that he had no more idea of 
 goina: to India than he had of goinj? to 
 the Ni.rth Pole ; and that he gave his 
 vate as di-iiuterestetily and as conscien- 
 tiously as auy peer in that house. A 
 Bill of Pains aud Penalties, he (lord 
 Lauderdale) ccuitended, was not an 
 tiuconstitutional measure, and the fair 
 aud liberal manner in which this bill 
 had been conducted, with a guarantee 
 aff'orditig justice to the accused. He 
 vindicated this mode of proceeding in 
 the present instance, in preference to 
 an impeachment. A noble lord then 
 absent (lord E.skine), had said the 
 House of Commons had already de- 
 t'iJed on this subject, but he did not 
 know huw that could be said ; and he 
 thought it was indiscreet in the noble 
 and learned bu'd to allude to the pro- 
 ceeding;* of the other House of Par- 
 liament, as influencing them. He de- 
 clared that, considering the evidence 
 that had been brou'jjht forward, and 
 laying his hnnd ori his heart, he could 
 Dot but vote for the present bill j and 
 
 he doubted not that the House of Com-r 
 mons would, after inquiry, cuuUrra the 
 decision. 
 
 The Earl of ROSEBERRY thought 
 that this was a case in which no peer 
 ought to give a silent vote ; and he 
 hoped the house would accept this as 
 his apology for the few words he had 
 to say upon it. Notwithstanding all 
 he had heard, he could uoi rccoocile 
 it to his honour and conscience as a 
 j'U-yman, to give his as-^eni to the pf-S5r 
 ing of the bill. On attentively con- 
 sidering tl>e whole facts and circum- 
 stances of the case, he could not say 
 that he was convii ced of the existence 
 of that adulieroHs intercourse, without 
 a full conviction of whic'.i, as their 
 lordships had been well told by the 
 noble and learned lord on the wooU 
 sack, no lord ougiit to j;ive his vole for 
 the bill. He imfdored iheir lordships 
 to ponder well tbe elfects which the 
 passing of the bill might probably have ; 
 to view it not only as a question of 
 justice, but as one of expediency. If 
 any doubt — if the least doub'c existed 
 on the minds of their lordship, — if 
 thete was any deficiency in the evi- 
 dence, the benelit oui;;ht to be thrown 
 into the scale fur the defendant (hear, 
 hear, hear). 
 
 Lord REDESDALE thought the 
 proof was full, complete, and absolute. 
 He could not conceive bow there could 
 be a doubt on the subject in the mind 
 of any reasonable man. He had con- 
 sidered the evidence attentively — he 
 had examined it over aud over, and 
 his impression was, that the case had 
 been more ftdly proved than ever any 
 case in wliich a contrariety of opinion 
 existed. He (Lord Redesdale) had 
 much legal experience in a country 
 (Ireland) where there was a great dis- 
 position among the people to swear 
 against each oiher ; lie knew all the 
 difficulties of extracting truth from a 
 mass of conflicting testimony ; but be 
 never knew a case where there was 
 less dillicuUy to encounter than there 
 was in the present. It had been proved 
 by the very evidence brought to dis- 
 prove it. The noble lord, after an 
 ingenuous encymitim on the evidence 
 of Majochi and De Mont, of both of 
 whom, he said that he thought them 
 entitled to credit, aud gave them credit, 
 he proceeded to consider the proceed- 
 ing in a constitutional point of view. 
 He thought it surprising that a Bill ol 
 Pains and Penalties should b« obfeciea 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEBIf. 
 
 423 
 
 to as sn tmcon?titutional measure, 
 ttheii ih? whole cuiisiilutioM oi the 
 iT)uulry ilepeiided ou one— the cxchi- 
 sk)ii ot the Smarts hy the Ait ul Seltle- 
 nieut. All divorce bills were, in fact, 
 Bills of Pains and Penalties. His 
 iordship illustrated his viiiw of the case 
 by a nuiuher of rcierences, and havinfj 
 concluded exactly ai four o'clock, the 
 house adjourued. 
 
 FRIDAY, Novembers. 
 
 The names of the peers having been 
 called over, the house proceeded to the 
 discussion of the bill. 
 
 Earl GROSVENOil first addressed 
 their lordships, and observed, that 
 after the most attentive consideration 
 of all the evidence and all the ari^u- 
 ments which had been adduced lor and 
 against this bill> he felt himself called 
 upon to say ** Not Conleui" to its 
 second reaUinj^. Their lordships had 
 heard on one side of this question all 
 those ari^uinents which had been uracil 
 in its favour, and they had likewise 
 heard, on the other, thi able, and he 
 could not help thinking, the conclusive 
 reasoning in reply, liefore proceeditig 
 further, he was anxious to refer to one 
 or two points in the speech of the liobie 
 and learned lord near him (the Lord 
 CyhanceJlor) a speech which, he had no 
 doubt, their lordships would a<?ree with 
 him in thinking must have had a very 
 jtowerful influence on that house. It 
 was impossible but to lecollect, that 
 the noble lord t'> whom he alluded in 
 addressing them, had endeavoured to 
 take an unprejudiced view of this ques- 
 tion, and to hold the balance of the 
 scale even. It was to be regretted 
 that the noble and learned lord had not 
 always pursued the same course, and 
 had not used his efforts to persuade the 
 noble lords opposite to advise his ma- 
 jesty to put the queen's name in the 
 Liiuroy. Had this been done, he had 
 no hesitation in believing that all those 
 difficulties into which they had been 
 plunged, would have been completely 
 obviated (hear, hear, hear^. It had 
 been stated, that this house ought not 
 to be influenced by any proceeding in 
 the other House of Parliament ; and 
 tliat to whatever decision they might 
 come, they should have no regard to 
 what might be the course taken else- 
 where. To this, as a general prin- 
 ciple, he acceded, but when the nature 
 of these que<»tiuu8 was cvQsidered— 'aud 
 
 when the length of time it had been 
 before the country — as well ,as the fact 
 of the other h«)use having come to a 
 resolution on the subject, were taken 
 into view, he did not couceive that it 
 was at all improper for them to reflect 
 upon what might be the ulterior fat« 
 of this bill. With regard to the effect 
 of this inquiry, he thought it was a 
 most fortunate circumstance that it 
 had taken place. The noble and learned 
 lord had stated a proposition to which 
 it was impossible for them not to 
 agree; it was, *« that, unless they had 
 I really and decidedly made up their 
 I minds that the charges had been proved, 
 they ought nut to vote for this bill." 
 He had also stated, and he hoped their 
 lordships would never forget it, that 
 I befoie they came to a vole, if there 
 remained the slightest doubt upon their 
 I minds, with regard to the guilt of the 
 queen, that doubt ought to operate ia 
 her favowr. (Hear, hear, hear.) H* 
 called u[on tlieir Isirdships to decide 
 upon this just and equitable principle; 
 and tiieu lie had no hesitation in anti- 
 cipating the complete rejection'of .thi« 
 <li»graceful ai»d obuoxious measure. 
 The noble earl then proceeded to ad- 
 vert to the evidence, and particularly 
 to that part of it which was given as to 
 the polacra. He thought it impos- 
 sible an adulterous intercourse was 
 either intended, or carried on under 
 the tent. It was the last place in the 
 world in which it would have occurred. 
 Hownam said there was no mystery 
 in Bergami's sleeping under it, and 
 the natural inference to be drawn from 
 this publicity, was, that no adulicrou* 
 connexion had taken place. Stich a 
 set of witnesses as appeared in support 
 of the bill he never before saw, with 
 one only exception, captain Briggs, 
 and he was at all events a negative 
 witness in favour of the queen. It 
 could not but be observed how D« 
 Mont came to their lordships' bar, 
 ready to swear to any thing that could 
 destroy the honour, or even rake away 
 the life of the queen ; and yet she did 
 not prove one single act of adultery, 
 (Hear, hear, bear.) Looking gene- 
 rally at the character of the witnesses 
 for the bill, he could not conscien- 
 tiously act on their testimony. De 
 Mont, already a couutess, was, he sup- 
 posed, to be still n);tfre elevated ; Ma- 
 jochi to be made Chancellor of Coiton- 
 garden (bear and laughter) ; and the 
 cuok> Cuchi^ to be rinsed abuve ^l Uxe 
 
424 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 oibers. Giirgiulo's evidence fee could 
 uot believt; ; liis lemuueratiou was ti>o 
 high ; lie had a pique against Bergpnii ; 
 aaJ he expected a large sum, beside.^ 
 V(hat he said was due to him. Biu it 
 Mias clear, when tueii were jealous, 
 when men were suspicious, it required 
 little to convince them of the infidc-lity 
 •f their wives. And whether they 
 vere kings, or nut, they shared the 
 same disposition. Their U)rdsliips 
 Mfere now called on in a case where 
 the king was a paity, and they had as 
 much right to comment on him, as 
 they would have on any otlier person, 
 (hear). He had heard, when the Li- 
 turgy was brought to the king by the 
 archbishop of Canterbury, that his ma- 
 jesty himself ordered the on»ission of 
 the queen's name. Whether it origi- 
 nated with the king or the archbishop 
 he would not say ; but this he would 
 say, that if he had beei; the ai chbishoio 
 (a laugh), he would have thrown it in 
 the king's face (hear, hear). He would 
 have done so, because it would mark I 
 hi* sense of the inhmnanity and in- 
 justice of that he vvas recpured to do. 
 Had he bee»i a minister, in the same 
 way he would have thrown down the 
 seals of ofllice, and trampled them 
 under his feet, rather than commir an 
 act of foul injustice. (Hear, hear). 
 There were often signs in the moral 
 and political world which seemed as if 
 to mark the proceedings of men. At 
 the commencement of this foul and 
 fatal charge against the queen, ihe 
 thunders rolled through the heavens ; 
 and at its termination, a gloomy dark- 
 ness set in, through which their lord- 
 ships could scarcely see each other. 
 If they threw out the bill, ihe note of 
 joy would be heard in France, in Spain, 
 in Sicily, in any country tliat was fiee, 
 Russia and unregenerated Italy njij^ht 
 bang down their heads in sorrow if 
 the biil^vvere lost; and they would do 
 so, only because they were not free. 
 Despotism always rejoices at an in- 
 crease of victims (hear, hear). In con- 
 elusion, the noble earl conjured their 
 l{)rdships to heal the agonized feeling- 
 of the magnanimous sufferer, the 
 queen — to do justice to themselves — 
 to satisfy the country — and to do what 
 they woulil wish to be done to their 
 own wives, to their own beloved daugh- 
 ters, if placed in circumstances like 
 the qtjeen, and at once throw out the 
 bill. 
 Earls Duaou^Umore au4 H^ewood 
 
 here ro«e nearly together, the cries of 
 '• Earl Harewood," predominated, and 
 earl Donoughmore gave wav. 
 
 Earl HAREWOOD, afteV thanking 
 the noble lord for his courtesy, said^ 
 that being placed in the double capa- 
 city of a j'idge and a' legislator on this 
 occasion, he wished to state the reasons 
 that governed him in giving his vote. 
 In looking at the evidence, he found 
 much that was C()niradictory— much 
 depended on loose grounds — otlier parts 
 on a firmer basis. Ou the whole, be 
 thought there was enough to create a 
 strong suspicion. He did not discre- 
 dit the witiiC'tses because they were 
 foreigners, but many parts of their de- 
 positions were not brought into the evi- 
 dence, and iliut of itself threw sus- 
 picion over it. He wished, however, 
 that his mind was as clear on the in- 
 nocence of the illustrious accused, as it 
 was ou the impo'.iey of this bill (hear, 
 hear). The bill consisted of two parts, 
 degradation and divorce ; the latter, 
 he understood, would not be pressed, 
 and the former was still liable to alte- 
 rations. As a legislator, however, he 
 was bound to look at the general efl'ect 
 of the bill ; and looking at it in that 
 way, he could not help regretting it 
 was ever brought before their lordships 
 (hear, hear). The very appearance of 
 injustice or oppression always did much 
 in this country ; but leave the people 
 to the unprovoked exercise of their own 
 judgmenis, and they would ultimately 
 decide aright. He considered the biil 
 highly inexpedient — the gieat body of 
 the peo})le were against it ; and, as a 
 legi^iator, looking to its general effect, 
 his conscience obliged him to vote 
 against it. 
 
 Eirl DONOUGHMORE said, though 
 much weight must be attached to any 
 thing coming from the noble earl, yet, 
 on this occasion, he had offered no 
 reasons why this bill should not be 
 read a second time. The noble eail's 
 speech showed, he considered^ the il- 
 lu.-,irious inculpaied guilty or not inno- 
 cent ; — and yet he said, on thegnuinds 
 oi its inex)»ediency, and the irritation 
 of the public mind, that he would vote 
 against the bill. He isad the best 
 opinion of the people, but he would 
 not sacrifice the dignity of parliament 
 to clamour or to danger ; (hear, hear, 
 from the ministerial benches). The 
 people should not be taught that they 
 were to be judges and rulers over their 
 lordships. But, after all; the questiou 
 
DEFEXCB OP THE QUEEN. 
 
 425 
 
 now \va«, '* Was the Bill to be read a 
 second time or uot?" Hefore he gave 
 his vote, he wished to stale on what 
 evidence he did so. First, then, he 
 put out of the qu'^stion ahogether the 
 evidence of Majochi and l)e Mont; 
 he would say nothing of Sacchi, or ol 
 tliat execrable witness, Cuehi, or of 
 Barbara Kress. But, in doing that, he 
 by no means wished to be understood 
 as saying they were perjured persons. 
 In looking, however, at the general 
 features of the case, it was impossible 
 not to be surprised at the rapd eleva- 
 tion of Bergaiiii, and the introduction 
 of his family into the household of her 
 m.ijesty. They all knew familiarities 
 were proved lo exiit beiween her r()>ai 
 hijjliness and Bergami : and th()n^:h 
 the atfairs of ihe chani and the portrait 
 were maiters of little moment in them- 
 sel.e<i, >till they tended to shew ;he 
 in imacy th«t exi'.ted heiween fhem. 
 The evidence of Gargiulo and Paturzo 
 relative to the hcene on the gun made 
 a strong impression on his mind ; and 
 with respect lo the tent, Gargiulo 
 proved that Schiavini frequently or- 
 dered it to be fastened down. Why 
 was i ordeied to be fastened.' That 
 adultery might be comn)itted. If for 
 any other purpose, why was uot Schia- 
 vini called ? Her majesty was six 
 months on board the polacca, taking 
 in the land voyage to Jerusalem ; but 
 for five weeks she slept under the tent ; 
 and she appeared to him to have taken 
 that long journey, not for pleasure, 
 not for curiosity, but for the purpose 
 of an adulterous gratification with Her- 
 ganii. The noble lord then referred 
 to the evidence of.Pierello, pages \\4 
 and 147. There was nothing to im- 
 peach the testimony of these witnesses, 
 except it was that they got certain sums 
 of money to defray their expenses, and 
 nia.-e compensation for their lo«s of 
 time. There was nothing in this cir- 
 cumstance that ought to alFert their 
 credibility. It was consistent with the 
 usual practice. It was the course pur- 
 sued with respect to witnesses in gene- 
 ral. Though they were closely cross- 
 examined for a whole day together, 
 uothing came out to affect their testi- 
 mony. They were, it was true, wit- 
 nesses for the prosecution ; hut had 
 ihey no witnesses for the defence who 
 spoke to tl»e circumstances on board 
 the polacca? Yes, they had lieutenant 
 Ilownam : it was his belief that her 
 roval lii^jhuess and Berffami slept uo- 
 
 54 
 
 der the tent during the voyage to Jaffa, 
 Tliis was a most material circumstance, 
 not only from its being admitted by 
 lieutenant Hownam, but from the great 
 diifieulty with which the admission was 
 extorted from him. Never did a more 
 reluctant witness appenr in any court of 
 justice. Hownam having admitted the 
 fact, he (the earl Donoughraore) 
 thought that, taken in conjunction with 
 all the other circumstances, it could 
 leave no doubt upon any person's mind 
 that adultery was proved; not only 
 adultery, but a long period of adulter- 
 ous intercourse. Uow was it possible 
 to read the evidence of the three per- 
 sons before alluded to without feeling 
 this conviction. They were men, no 
 doubt in hunible life, but he saw no 
 reason to disbelieve them. Nothing 
 appeared to impeach their testimony, 
 the law therefore told him that he ought 
 to belifve them. He regretted that the 
 noble lord on the v>oolsack did not go 
 more fully into the case, and state 
 more fully the grounds on which he 
 voted. He would then have contri- 
 buted in a more effectual way to Jead 
 the judgment of the house on this great 
 and importa^nt question. He should 
 h >ve been s;lad to shelter himself under 
 the authority of the noble and learned 
 lord. He differed from those noble 
 lords who expressed regret that more 
 evidence had not been produced. He 
 did not wish to have more or less evi- 
 dence; but he was sorry that the selec- 
 tion was not better. He was a mem- 
 ber of the secret committee, and after 
 all that had been said, he would now 
 repeal again, that with such facts be- 
 fore tliem ministers would have failed 
 in their duty, both to the crown a»d to 
 the cotmtry, if they had not brought 
 the niHtter forward for investigation. 
 Whatever clamour might have beett 
 raised, or at present exist against the 
 measure, the people would at last come 
 to a correct idea on the subject. It 
 was, indeed said, th -t the public had 
 decided already. VA hatever their de- 
 cision might be to that he conld not 
 iiJve up his wn npi ion, formed on de^ 
 liberate consideration of the'evidence 
 belore their lordships. Jt was said by 
 the learned counsel at the bar, by way^ 
 he supposed, of intimidating their lord- 
 ships, that if tliey f)ronounced a verdict 
 of guilty in this case, it might be the 
 last they would pronounce. To him it 
 .'ippoared ridiculous to direct such ^m 
 insinuation, uot only t» their lordshipsy 
 
426 
 
 I>RFENCB OF THB QUCKIY. 
 
 but to any bodj of reasonnMe men, 
 Bitting under similar circumstances. 
 They were not (o be deterred by such 
 threats from the discharge of an im- 
 portant duty. The noble earl concluded 
 by a \varm paneo^yric on his majesty, 
 but in so low a tone of voice that he 
 could not be heard below the bar. 
 
 Earl GREY said, that, though de- 
 sirous to hear what could be said by 
 the noble lords opposite in support of 
 this bill, he could not consider himsel. 
 as discharging his duty, unless he ad- 
 dressed their lordships without further 
 delay, and stated the grounds on which 
 his vote would be given. In civility to 
 liis noble friend (the earl Donough- 
 more) he would dismiss a'l those to- 
 pics with which he concluded his speech. 
 If her majeslj's counsel had acted with 
 impropriety — if they imd used inflam- 
 matory language — if they had intro- 
 duced into their speeches topics which 
 loyalty to their king and duty to their 
 country should have forbidden, their 
 lordships should not have sat quietly to 
 listen to them. His noble friend repre- 
 sented this language in a way in which 
 he (lord Grey) should be sorry that 
 others understood it. He was not there 
 for the purpose either of approving or 
 condemning wliat had been said or 
 done by counsel at the bar. Whether 
 right or wrong, the effect could not be 
 diminished by again calling up the re- 
 collection of it. A complaint was also 
 made that the noble lord on the wool- 
 sack had disappointed their expecta- 
 tions, by not entering into a judicial 
 and comprehensive statement of the 
 whole case, for the purpose of leading 
 their lordships' judgment. No person, 
 he would admit, from his great expe- 
 rience, his practice, and discriminating 
 judgment, was more capable of making 
 such a statement. No man could, for 
 his own information, be more glad to 
 hear such a statement than himself 
 (lord G.), but he did not think that the 
 noble and learned lord had any such 
 duty to perform upon the present occa- 
 sion ; the noble aud learned lord, upon 
 the present occasion, sat only us a 
 peer among peers, and a juror among 
 jurors. He was there to support his 
 own opinion by argument, and not 
 called upon to discharge any duty simi- 
 lar to that of judges in other courts. 
 His lordship then proceeded to state 
 his objections against the principle and 
 policy of a bill of pains and penalties. 
 He ney«r conteuded that such eouid not 
 
 be justified in any case — that tii^re 
 were no circumstances under which it 
 might be coustiiuiionally introduced. 
 He had read the history of the consti- 
 tution with far ditferent opinions, and 
 agreed with the noble loid on the wool- 
 sack, that as there were precedents of 
 siicU bills at the time of the Revolution, 
 as in preceding times also there were 
 instances of stich an exercise of parlia- 
 mentary power, it must be within the 
 competency of parliament to have re- 
 course to them under peculiar exigen- 
 cies. Still, however, bills of this na- 
 ture were so objectionable, and they 
 were of such rare occurrence, and so 
 Contrary to the spirit of Btitish legisla- 
 tion, that nothing but a great and pa- 
 ramount public interest could justify 
 them. He objected to this measure, 
 therefore, at the outset, because it 
 appeared to him that it was not neces- 
 sary, that the circumstances of the 
 case did not absolutely require it. and, 
 therefore, he recommended a bill of 
 impeachment, as more consistent witli 
 justice, as a more coustitutioual mode 
 of proceeding. Was the noble and 
 learned lord, or the noble earl opp .site, 
 (Liverpool), so ignorant of what was 
 passing: round them every day, as to 
 suppose that the people of the country 
 were quite iudift'erent on this measure ? 
 Were they so ignorant as not to know, 
 that if the proceeding originated by 
 itupeachment in the other house of par- 
 liament, a very different result might 
 have taken place. The noble earl 
 (Liverpool) seemed to be av\are that a 
 ditferent result would have been tiie 
 consequence, for when a proposal was 
 made to get rid of this inquiry, and to 
 leave the matter open to impeachment, 
 he said it would be equivalent to voting 
 that there should be no proceeding 
 at all. This was as much as to say, in 
 fact, that the House of Commons would 
 never entertain a proposition for im- 
 peachment. In this respect, therefore, 
 it was not more favourable to the: 
 queen. To g\iilt, a bill of pains and 
 penalties might certainly be more fa- 
 vourable ; but not to innocence (hear, 
 hear). What was the effect of such 
 a proceeding ? The noble lord on the 
 woolsack said the present was only 
 like every other bill of divorce which ! 
 originated in that house, and was then j 
 sent down to the House of Commons,. 
 It was very different to a common bill 
 of divorce, as it included questions of 
 the highest state importance — the de- 
 g^radftiiou of the que^o^ and the ho&otir 
 
DKrEKCB or THE QOBBNt 
 
 tm 
 
 and dignity of the crown. Her* wa> a 
 bill brought ^cfore the highest court ii> 
 the kingdom, with all the solemnities 
 peculiar to itself, with the judges in at- 
 tendance t« assist their lordships ia 
 any ditficulty that might arise, with 
 witnesses, whose examination was upon 
 oath. Suppose it to pass there, and 
 afterwards to be sent to another court 
 of appeal, and an inferior court, di- 
 vested of all those solemnities, withont 
 the presence of the judges — without the 
 power of examining witnesses upon 
 oath. He could conceive nothing more 
 dangerous — nothing fraught with worse 
 consequences, than thus to run the risk 
 of a contrary decision. This argument 
 he before urged with all the force he 
 was master of, but their lordships de- 
 cided contrary. This being the case, 
 however he might differ from those with 
 whom he usually acted, he made up his 
 miod fo vote, not with reference to the 
 principle of the bill, but on such evi- 
 dence as might be brought forward to 
 support it. He was, therefore, placed 
 in this alternative, if the case was made 
 out, either to vote for the bill, or to 
 suffer her majesty to remain on the 
 throne, polluted and blasted as she 
 was. But how was the case to be 
 proved, and what was the nature of the 
 case. This last question could not be 
 better answered than in the preamble 
 of the bill itself. — [Here the noble earl 
 read the preamble of the bill.] — Such 
 was the case to be proved. Not merely 
 one of adultery, but of gross licentious 
 conduct; of conduct so disgraceful, that 
 her majesty eould not be^ allowed to 
 retain her dignily without dishonour to 
 ll»e crown and the country. This was 
 the thing to be proved by clear and 
 undoubted testimony, by witnesses 
 above all suspicion. Nothing short of 
 uncontrovertible facts, leading to an 
 undeniable proof of guilt, were suffi- 
 cient to authorize them in passing such 
 a bill. He would now address himself 
 to the case. Before proceeding he 
 would ask, if, at the conelu:<ion of the 
 Attorney-General's speech, the first 
 case of adultery stated in such glowing 
 terms to have occurred at Naples — if 
 the facts represented to have taken 
 place at Venice, at Genoa, at Trieste, 
 at the Villa Brandi, if all these acts of 
 disgusting basenei>s, by which the ears 
 of the country had been polluted, were 
 then given up — if it could then be 
 stated that tbcy were abandoned, that 
 
 they were c«ie« thai eAuld be m 
 
 longer relied on, and that all was re- 
 duced to the simple fact of the polacca, 
 would their lordships have the slightest 
 hesitation in throwing out the bill? 
 (Hear.) After forty-five days' investi- 
 gation, they were now called upon to 
 consign her maji sty to infamy and ruin, 
 on the single case of the polacca. The 
 noble earl then proceeded' to shew such 
 contradiction<< oti the part of thfe wit- 
 nesses Majochi, De Mont, Sacchi, and 
 others, as rendered them unworthy of 
 credit. Much had been said about the 
 non-production of witnesses on th« 
 part of her majesty, who were sup- 
 posed capable of contradicting the wit- 
 nesses in support of t'->e bill. But therd 
 was a difficulty in the way of producing 
 such witnesses, if they could be found, 
 which would have justified the queen's 
 counsel in the exercise of a sound dis* 
 cretion, in not calling them. Strong 
 evidence had been given to shew that 
 attempts had been made to corrupt the 
 witnesses who were likely to be called 
 on behalf of her majesty. The conduct 
 of De Mont in her endeavours to cor- 
 rupt her own sister, Mariette Brunette 
 — her correspondence, her mysterious 
 allusions, and her double entendres, 
 proved this to demonstration. Hit 
 noble friend (lord Lauderdale) had 
 said much upon the subject of not 
 calling Brunette to contradict her sister 
 as to the particular fact she stated 
 to have taken place on a particular 
 morning in the queen's bed-room. It 
 was, however, to be recollected that 
 De Mont did not fix the precise 
 morning on which the supposed fact 
 took place, and therefore with this 
 uncertainty as to time, it was impos- 
 sible to call her sister to contradict her. 
 He was surprised to hear it said in this 
 discussion, that M.ijochi had not been 
 materially contradicted, when, in fact, 
 six or seven distinct instances of direct 
 contradiction could be pointed out iu 
 the evidence. For instance, it ap- 
 j peared that he had positively denied 
 I the existence of another passage lead- 
 ing to Bergami's room, besides that 
 ' through his own apartment, and ytt in. 
 I the very same page he confesses that 
 ' there was another passage. Was a 
 : witness so contradicting himself en- 
 ' titled o any credit .!> His lordship did 
 I not rely much upon the evidence of 
 1 Carrington ; but, undoubtedly, there 
 wer« several other cuntradictiont of 
 
4^8 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEPC, 
 
 Majochi, not only by the testimony 
 of other witnesses, hnt by himself, 
 Tvhich could not but shake his tes- 
 timony altogether. His want of me- 
 mory upon points which he could n»t 
 help knowing and recollecting was de- 
 cisive. How little reliance could be 
 placed on his evidence. He pretended 
 that he could not recollect, whether his 
 own bed, which he made every night, 
 
 most unimpeachablo veracity (hear, 
 hear). Sir William Cell, whose know- 
 ledge of antiquity was s^o considerable, 
 distinctly stated that her majesty's 
 breast vva« not displayed in the inde- 
 cent manner described by De Mont* 
 The rest orDe Mont's evidence upon 
 this part of the case was utterly in»- 
 probable and incredible. Adverting 
 again to the evidence of Majnclii, his 
 
 Jiad sheets upon it or not. In the course i lordship pointed out the inconsistency 
 
 <of his cross-examination he gave a 
 similar answer forty or fifty times, to 
 matters upon which he could not be ig- 
 norant j whereas he answered readily 
 and promptly to other questions, of a 
 like nature, coming from the other side. 
 With what particularity he described 
 
 \)f his statement, that he changed his 
 name in conseq ence of the supposed 
 tumult which had taken place at Dover 
 I he year preceding. He then dwelt 
 upon the direct contradiction of his 
 evidence by Carlo Forti, Olivieri, 
 lieutenant Hownam, and count Vassali, 
 
 the disgusting circumstances of the | as to his having travelled with Ihe 
 i^ottle in the carriage; a subject of in- '' - ^ . ^- ■ ,. -^ 
 
 quiry which his lordship thought wholly 
 unworthy of the authors of the bill. 
 Could it be called no contradiction 
 when, in answer to a question, whe- 
 ther he knew a person named Hughes, 
 lie at first said he never heard of such 
 a person in his life ; and yet, in a '■ 
 Bhort time afterwards, said he knew him 
 so well, that he always called him his 
 brother ? He was quite surprised to 
 hear the argument of his noble friend, 
 that Majochi's evidence was stampt 
 vith truth, because in answer to the 
 question whether he had ever applied 
 to be taken back into the queen's ser- 
 vice, he gave au explanation beginning 
 vith the exclamation — " Softly, let me 
 explain myself." Was this a reason 
 •why his noble friend should say that 
 ^lajochl was an unexceptionable wit- 
 ness? These then were general cir- 
 cumstances of suspicion attaching to 
 this man's evidence which rendered him 
 wholly unworthy of belief. The four 
 principal witnesses were Majftchi, De 
 Mont, Sacchi, and Rastelli, all of w honi 
 liad been dismissed from the queen's 
 service at the time they were first ex- 
 amined, and it was singular, that not a 
 jingle allegation was brought forward 
 imputing the slightest impropriety of 
 conduct to her majesty during those 
 three years. De .Mont, it appeared, 
 iad been dismissed inconsfqucnce of a 
 priminal intercoui>e which she herself 
 Lad had with Sacchi, a circumstance 
 which she was lierself constrained to 
 disclose. The evidence of De Mont, 
 with respect to her majesty's dress at 
 the Naples ball, wfis most decisively 
 eontiadicted by Sir \\'illiara Gell ani 
 ^f. K.eppel Crave*, \yitii€5ses of the 
 
 queen from Rome to Seuigaglii as a 
 courier ; from this point his lordship 
 directed the attention of the house to 
 the manifest contradiction of the other 
 witnesses who were callrd to prove the 
 kissing in a boat on the Lake of Como, 
 — a transaction which he tr^ated as 
 utterly unlikely to have occuricd in 
 the presence of such vagabonds, as 
 were culled to their lordship^' bar. It 
 was to be observed, that not one res- 
 pectable person was called against the ^ 
 queen to depose to any of these inde- 
 cencies: but that all of Ihe witnesses 
 were selected from the mass of the 
 lowest of the Italian rabble. Upon 
 such evidence as this he c«»uld not think 
 himself justified in giving a vole in 
 favor of this bill. His lordship then 
 directed his attention to the tent scene 
 on board the polncca, and contended 
 that though it must be admitted her 
 majisty had slept under the tent with 
 Bergami during the period mentioned, 
 yet the transaction was extremely equi- 
 vocal and quite con^^istent with perfect 
 innocence ; and it was to be remarked, 
 that there was no evideure that other 
 persons had not slept under the same 
 tent during the period in question. 
 The evidence of Mr. tlpwnam was 
 most important upon this part <if the 
 case ; and it was but justice to say, 
 that gentleman, notwithstanding all 
 that had been said, had given his evi- 
 dence with great candour and pro- 
 priety. With respect to lieutenant 
 Flynn, the contradiction as to Schia- 
 viui's writing was of such a nature as 
 must lay his testimony out of the ques- 
 tion. By this he by no means in- 
 tended to say that it was this gentle- 
 maa's iateutioo %o give a faUe accountj 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 429 
 
 becA«ie he could hnve no motive for 
 coiiceaiinent* He wonid then admit, 
 th.it the fact of the queen having slept 
 under the tent had been proved by five 
 witnesses. With respect to the queen's 
 Attorney-General, to whose extraor- 
 dinary display of eloquence and talent 
 he had listened with much attention, he 
 did not remember that he had stated 
 this circumstance as a part of his case ; 
 but he remembered, that in opening 
 the queen's defence, he did not state 
 that it was his intention to ofter any 
 denial to it: and he further remem- 
 bered, that Mr. Williams, in his able 
 statement of the evidence which he 
 was about to produce, expressly stated 
 the fact to be admitted. This charge 
 of sleeping under the tent being thus 
 clearly established, it remained for their 
 lordships to say, whether this circum- 
 stance existing a^ it did, without con- 
 cealment, would warrant them in pro- 
 nouncing a verdict of guilty ? He was 
 bound to say, that he did not think it 
 would justify any such conclusion ; and 
 the more especially when he reflected 
 upon the suspicious nature of the evi- 
 dence by which the proof of the fact 
 had been accompanied. The noble 
 earl tlien took a view of the testimony 
 of Gargiulo, the captain of the polacca, 
 and of his mate, Paturzo; and con- 
 tended, from the high reward which 
 they had been promised, as well as 
 from the expectations which were held 
 out to tlie former by colonel Brown, as 
 to his ultimatel}/ receiving the six thou- 
 sand dollars, the refusal of which, on 
 tlie#|>art of the queen, had excited his 
 rcseulinent, that their evidence must 
 be looked to as far from unsuspicious. 
 Independent of this, ho^vever, he con- 
 sidered that the imputation of her ma- 
 jesty committing adultery on the open 
 deck of the vessel, exposed to the ob- 
 servation of all the crew, with so many 
 otheropp<»rtuniti»-sfor the gratification 
 of her passion, if it existed, was alto- 
 gether impossible. His lordship then 
 referred to the difficulties and incou- 
 ▼eniencies to which persons travelling 
 on shipboard must necessarily en- 
 counter — and with these difTicullies, 
 added to all the oilier circumstances 
 connec'ed with this tent scene, the 
 hatches constantly open, and the Sus- 
 picious nature of the te>timony which 
 had been adduced, he asked their lord- 
 ships if their conviction of her ma- 
 jesty's guilt was so clear as to induce 
 Ihcia to Totc for thii bill ,*-»TFor his 
 
 own part, he did not hesitate to say, 
 that he did not believe that the adul- 
 tery had taken place, either on this or 
 any other occasion (hear, hear). He 
 had stated on a former occasion his 
 feeliig on the ill-advised letter which 
 the queen had addressed to the king — 
 he had no hesitation in expressing the 
 same opinion now, both with respect to 
 that letter and to the answi rs which her 
 mijesty had been advised to give to the 
 addresses which were presented to her, 
 lie thought them most injurious and im- 
 proper ; but it was not on this account 
 that his feelings upon the measure 
 before them could be in the slightest 
 degree influenced, and he trusted that 
 other noble lords would equally banish 
 from their minds every consideration, 
 save that which had been immediately 
 the object of their deliberation. He 
 was alike incapable of acting from 
 any consideration of the opinions which 
 might be entertained out of doors, al- 
 though he thought those opinions were 
 held at too cheap a rate. He looked to 
 the facts of the case, and upon thoso 
 facts, and those facts alone, his judg- 
 ment had been formed. The noble 
 earl then commented with great force 
 upon the mischievous consequences 
 which must arise, if this bill, having^ 
 been passed by the House of Lords, 
 were rejected by the House of Com- 
 mons. He confessed, in the present ir- 
 ritated state of the public mind, he 
 could contemplate no greater evil than 
 a division between the two houses; 
 that that house should pass a bill t«> 
 degrade and remler inlamous the 
 queen, while the House of Commons 
 rejected that bill, (hear, hear, hear). 
 He had heard, that some of the judges 
 who had been attending these pro- 
 ceeding's had given their opiuiou, that, 
 if the same witnesses had been brought 
 before them as had been brought to 
 their lordships' bar, they would nut 
 hesitate to direct the jury to find a 
 verdict of guilty. He mentioned this 
 re|)(jrt merely for the purpose of saying 
 that he believed it was a circumstance 
 which could not have taken place. 
 He apprehended none of those learned 
 judges could have so far forgotten the 
 respect due to that house, as well as to 
 their own character, as to have ha- 
 zarded such an observation. Another 
 report had been put in circulation,, 
 that if this bill were read a second 
 time, il was not the intention of the 
 noUe earl opposite to carsv it further. 
 
4m 
 
 DEFENCE OF THfi QVBBIT. 
 
 l^hls aJso h« beliaved to hn otterly dfiiti- 
 tut« of truth-^for if the bill were once 
 read a second time, it would be the 
 tluty of that noble earl to carry it 
 throug^h its remaining stages. By the 
 ♦ aecoud reading of the bill, in fact, all 
 the mischief would be done, and it 
 would be impossible afterwards to 
 relieve the queen from the stigma 
 "which such a proceeding must neces- 
 sarily cast upon her. Ju conclusion, 
 the noble earl made an eloquent al- 
 lusion to the tenor of his past life ; 
 and, laying bis hand upon his heart, 
 declared, upon his houojir and his 
 conscience, that whether he viewed 
 this bill with reference to the facts 
 ^hich bad been given in evidence, or 
 to its expediency, he should fearlessly 
 and conscientiously say, upon the ques- 
 tion of its beins: read a second time — 
 ** Not content" (hear, hear). 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL commenced 
 ty concurring* in the two distinct consi- 
 derations of this subject noticed by the 
 nolile earl, which might lead to very 
 different conclusions. The great ques- 
 tion was, undoubtedly, whether the 
 qween was or was not guilty of the im- 
 puted charges ; but the expediency of 
 the measure, in a legislative point of 
 view, ought also he admitted, uot^o be 
 ,/orgotten. Though he was perfectly 
 aware, as had been stated yesterday, that 
 this was the only course in which the 
 house could proceed, he could not but 
 regret that such a course was necessary, 
 l>pcattse it necessarily mixed two consi- 
 derations of an opposite nature, and must 
 unavoidably leave the decision of the 
 house uncertain, whether it had been 
 made upon the guilt or innocence of the 
 qtieen, or only upon the expediency or 
 inexpediency of passing the measure. 
 Approaching the subject under these 
 difficulties, he nujst, in the first place, 
 ny, that in hi^ opinion, the point at pre- 
 sent before the house was this — whether 
 the preamble had been sufficiently proved 
 —whether the substantial parts of it had 
 teen «o established as to induce the 
 Itonse to read the bill a second time? 
 The noble earl who laU spoke had alluded 
 to some supposed understanding as to 
 whfit mii>lit 1)0 the cofiduct of noble 
 Itrds if llie bill were sent to a c6mmit- 
 tre. Of such an understanding- he (the 
 enrl of Liverpool) knew nothing; and 
 ft> it he was no party (hear). It would 
 Ibe for the house, after the second read- 
 ing, to deferuiin^ whether the preamble 
 Kad been proved wholly or in part j and 
 
 th« particular eiva«tment« the bill sltaMljl 
 contain was a subsequent matter of dcK- 
 beratiou. In this stage of the proceed- 
 ing he put out of view all couiidera- 
 tions of expediency ; and he would 
 state why. Did he undervalue those 
 considerations ? By no means ; but 
 the proper time for giving weight to 
 them had been when the subject was 
 debated on the lyth of August. The 
 question then was, whether the bill 
 should be read a second time at all— 
 whether counsel should be called in to 
 support and to dispute the bill ? Since 
 that date forty or fifty days had been 
 occupied in the hearing of witnesses j 
 the advocates for the queen had joined 
 issue on the facts ; and, under these 
 circumstances, the house owed it to 
 itself, to the queen, and to the country, 
 to come to a decision upon the facts as 
 they appeared upon the minutes. Ha 
 admitted most disthictly, that, what- 
 ever any noble lord might think of all 
 the allegations, no person ought to 
 vote, and he desired that no person 
 would vote for, the second reading, 
 who did not believe that the adulterous 
 intercourse had been proved by suffi- 
 cient and satisfactory evidence (cheers). 
 To this evidence he now wished to 
 draw the attention of the house. The 
 noble earl who had just taken his seat, 
 had remarked upon the difference 
 between the proof and the allegations 
 of the preamble. Be this as it might, 
 he was now perfectly ready to discuss 
 this question on the erideuce as it 
 stood, and in the outset he was quite 
 willing to admit that there was a great 
 mass of contradictory testimony : but 
 he would ask any man at all acquainted 
 with judicial proceedings whether 
 there had ever been a great case, iu 
 which the interests aud passious of 
 men were embarked, where the evi* 
 dence was not a mass of contradiction? 
 If iu the course of his argument, like 
 his noble friends on the woolsack, aud 
 ou the cross-bench (Lauderdale^, be 
 rejected a great deal of the testimony, 
 it was not because he disbelieved it, 
 but because he was ready to give her 
 majesty the advantage of all hesita- 
 tion arising from contradiciion. He 
 was ready to put the fate of the mea- 
 sure upon this — that it should depend 
 only upon the unctmtradicled facts; 
 if he could not show that it was founded 
 upon uncoutroverted aud uncontra- 
 diced facts, he would consent to give 
 Up ibe bill altogether, (Hear, hear.) 
 
BMrENCB OP TMB QUEFW. 
 
 431 
 
 It b ad been iir^ed by the nobU earl 
 tbai a charge uf this »urt ou^ht to be 
 pruved by witnesses uucuuiainiuaied 
 iu characte*' aud respeciabie in situa- 
 tiuu — that they shuuld not even be 
 liable tu suspiclou. But might it uot 
 be impossible tu adduce such evidence, 
 althuu';h guilt ^vas uudeuiable ? One 
 uuble lord troni the gallery (Hare- 
 wood) had wished that the proofs hud 
 beeu giveu by English witnesses ; so 
 did he : but il the priucess went abroad 
 amon^ Italians^ and surrounded her- 
 celf by Italians, never seeing one Eng- 
 lish soul, how was it possible to esta- 
 blish the case? lu the same way, if 
 she shut hersolf up from the higher 
 rauks of society, aud took into her 
 service none but persons of the lowest 
 stations sud characters, it was a sort 
 of insult tu the understanding to re- 
 quire that respectable aud uncoutami- 
 irnted witnesses should be produced at 
 the bar. Certainly it was a reasou for 
 examining the testimony wiih more 
 suspicion, but not for rejecting it 
 when the case admitted of no other. 
 The facts on the part of the accusaiiun 
 had beeu established by servants of 
 her majesty, who had either been dis- 
 missed or had quitted her employ- 
 ment. The evidence for the charges 
 beiug given by servants either dis- 
 carded or who had quitted the answer 
 should have come from those who re- 
 niaiued in the household of her ma- 
 jesty. What had been the fact ? Had 
 any such answer been given ? With 
 the exception i»f lieutenant Howuara, 
 of all the persons who lived with the 
 queen at the period to which the pre- 
 amble referred, and who continued 
 with her now, uot one had beeu called 
 whose testimony was at all material 
 (cheers). Under such circumstances, 
 the defence would have had this 
 amaziug advantage, because discarded 
 servants, as witaesses, must always 
 be looked upon with a degree of sus- 
 Jpicion, while confidence would be re- 
 po*ed in such as had continued in the 
 faithful discharge of their duties. 
 Fairly and judicially viewing the ques- 
 tion, therefore, it must be acknow- 
 ledged that the whole testimony that 
 could be procured had been produced 
 on one side, while, with the exception 
 of lieutenant Hownara, there had beeu 
 no evidence on the other, though it 
 was avowedly within the reach of the 
 party accused. The noble earl then 
 pracecded to uke a review o{ the dif- 
 
 ferent leading feature* of the case ; to 
 llie rapid elevation of Bergaipi; to 
 bis visit to the theatre of Sa4> Carlo* 
 with the princess ; to the n»ysiery at- 
 tendin^■ the reception of the countess 
 of 0:di into the family of the princes* 
 at Milan, to the exclusion of the wife, 
 of Bergami; while his brother, his 
 sister, his child, and his mother were 
 all admitted ; to the fact of Bergami 
 diniug with the princess in his courier's 
 dress at Bologna, while Hieronymus, 
 and other faithful and old servants, 
 were rejected ; all these circumstanct;* 
 he would say, proved, not a suspicious 
 attachment, but.an infatuated passioir. 
 He could almost say, that he desired 
 no man to vole for this bill, uho did 
 not believe that, when the priucirss 
 went on board the polacca, she enter- 
 tained for Berijami an infatuated pai- 
 sion (clieersj. The queen's Attorney- 
 General had used an ingenious argu- 
 ment when he said that De Mont's 
 lettejs, with her double enttndres, were 
 wholly incomprehensible ; but, without 
 them, clear, intelligible, and coherent. 
 The same might be said of the queen's 
 conduct : with the explanation at- 
 tempted, it was absurd and incon- 
 gruous, but, under the supposition of 
 this ungovernable attachment, her 
 strangest actions were easily under- 
 stood. The infatuation of passion only 
 could reconcile them, and he defied 
 the wit of man to account for them in 
 any other way (hear). What he wished 
 to impress upon the house was, the 
 conduct and character of the whole 
 transaction. Let the house take the 
 case upon all its ditferent bearitgs, 
 and see if they could come to any 
 other conclusion. He found it undis- 
 puted, it could not be disputed, that 
 wherever the parties went, the apart- 
 ments of Bergami aud of the princess 
 were as contiguous as circumstance* 
 would permit. No danger could be 
 apprehended at the times to which he 
 had alluded ; no pretence of danger 
 could avail. Besides, if it was ne- 
 cessary for her majesty always to have 
 a man near her, why was Bergami 
 always to be that man ? Why could 
 not some other individual share that 
 avocation with him ? Let the house 
 remember the evidence of the witness 
 De Mont ; let them recollect her ma- 
 jesty's practice of following De Moot 
 to her chamber, and locking the doors 
 whenever the apartment of that wj^- 
 ness cummuuicated with h^r owo. 
 
432 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEiV. 
 
 Wbatever fiuspicion, if any, existed a«» 
 to the testiraouy of De Mont, the same 
 suspicion would attach, at least iu an 
 equal degree, to a great portion of the 
 evidence on the other side; to lieute- 
 nant Hownam's evidence it would par- 
 ticularly attach, because it was impos- 
 sible, even with every disposition to 
 allow for that gentleman's feeling to- 
 urards his mistress, it was impossible 
 to think of his conversation with cap- 
 tain iiriggs, whether the advice in 
 question had or had not been given to 
 her majesty, was a matter of no conse- 
 quence, without perceiving that his 
 evidence was quite as suspicious as that 
 either of De Mont or ol Majochi. It 
 iiad been said by the learned counsel 
 on her majesty's behalf ** We bring 
 her on board the polacca without taint 
 and without suspicion." He had marked 
 the care witii which Ihat point had been 
 laboured ; the learned counsel had felt 
 that the polacca was a strong obstacle 
 in their path, and had proposed to get 
 over it by ciirrying an uusus-pected cha 
 racter up to that very point; but he 
 (lord Liverpool) denied that absence of 
 taint; he alleged, not only that there 
 was suspicion before that period, but 
 til at there was a moral certainty of 
 guilt. 
 
 At twenty minutes after four the 
 bouse adjourned. 
 
 SATURDAY, November 4. 
 
 TheEail of LIVERPOOL rose, at 
 twenty minutes after ten o'c ock, to 
 resume his speech. He thought it 
 right to state broadly the grounds which 
 should legulate his vote upon the pre- 
 sent important question- In the first 
 place he must say, that in his opinion, 
 and without attaching implicit credit 
 to the evidence on that part of the sub- 
 je^it by Majochi and L>e Mont, there 
 was strong circumstantial evidence, if 
 not of the actual commission of the act 
 imputed to the queen, at least that lixi 
 inteution to cunnnit it existed betweeu 
 the parties, while yet B>;rgami remaim d 
 in the siiuatiou of courier. But upon 
 that part of the evideuce which brought 
 the journey of the princess of Wales 
 up to Calauia, he thought there was 
 the strongest reason to believe thai 
 the criuiiual iiitenii )u had been car- 
 ried into complete effect. Before, how- 
 ever, he touched upon ilie Catania evi- 
 dence, hff must drop a few words re- 
 specting the conduct and maiiner of 
 
 her majesty when captain Pechell re- 
 fused to receive Hergami at his table 
 on board the Clofinde. Kow one 
 would suppose, that if her majesty 
 were conscious of her own innocence, 
 instead of hesitating, as it appeared 
 she did, on receiving this coniinunica- 
 tion from captain Pechell, she would 
 rather have manifested indignant re- 
 sentment, as if at an insult ; and re- 
 monstrated with the government at 
 home, as she then might have done, 
 upon the refusal of the captain to sit 
 at table with her ro; al highness's 
 chamberlain. This course she did not, 
 however, take ; nor did she appear to 
 have regulated her future conduct as a 
 prudent and innocent woman would 
 have regulated it, so as to avoid raising 
 in the bye-standers anysrandalrespei t- 
 ing the intercourse with this man 
 (hear). On the Catania evidence, how- 
 ever, there were JJe Mont, (he coun- 
 tess Oldi, and Mariette Bron, who 
 must have been privy to whatever up 
 to that time occurred, betweeu the 
 princess and Bergami. Now the house 
 had beard De Mont's evidence; they 
 had not heard that of the countess 
 Oldi and Bron, because the counsel 
 for the defence d d not choose to call 
 them. He was willing to concede that 
 1 the testimony of De Mont had been in 
 some parts damaged ; but wliere she 
 had received no contradiction, and 
 where contradi< tion might have been 
 given, he submitted that she was en- 
 titled to the fullest credit. In this view 
 of the ca-e he looked to the occurrences 
 at Caiania. What was the stofy there ? 
 That her royal highness had been seen 
 coming from Hergrtini's room with the 
 two pillows on which she usually sh'pt, 
 under her arm. J>e Mont had not said 
 positively that her sister, Mariette 
 Bron, was with her when she saw this 
 scene ; but i^till the countess of Oldi 
 was there : the countess of Oldi was in 
 this country, anJ although stared to be 
 forthcoming, had not been called. In 
 the absence of the countess of Oldi he 
 considered, with respect to Catania, 
 at least, that tlie adultery had been 
 com|)letely proved. At Tunis a sur- 
 geon was taken on l)oard, and on that 
 occasion the bed of Bergami was moved 
 into the dining-room contiguous to the 
 chamber of her royal liighness. He 
 now came to the sleeping under the 
 tents at Aum, on the deck, and else- 
 where. That her royal liighness slept 
 alone under those tents with Ber- 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEBN. 
 
 433 
 
 ^mi, he would assume as a fact, be- 
 cause it cannot be controverted. It 
 was clear, that duriu": tlie whole of the 
 voyage home, for thirty nights, Ber- 
 gaini had «lept under the same tent 
 with her royal highness; and this he 
 desired to state took place without the 
 slisfhtest necessity— -without even the 
 pretence of neces-sity. It had been at 
 first thou';rht that there had been no 
 mystery in this practice. This would 
 have made no ditfereuce in his conclu- 
 sion ; but he did not ajjree that there had 
 been no myster}' ; but, on the contrary, 
 he thought there had been a great deal 
 of mystery. In the first place, the At- 
 torney- (General for tl'.e queen, in his 
 able and compreiieusive speech, had 
 never mentioned the tent on board the 
 po'acca, and Mr. Williams had only 
 half nientimed it, for the purpose of 
 throjviug doubt upon it. Dr. Lushiug- 
 ton wa-f the only individual who bad 
 distinctly dwelt upon the fact, and ap- 
 plied himself to its explanation. The 
 evidence of lieutenants Flynn and 
 Hownam also evinced the desire there 
 existed to keep this part of the case en- 
 tirely out of view. In truth, it was 
 raanifrst, that the admission of this 
 tent scene had only beeu extorted with 
 the greatest difficulty. S» much for 
 the mystery. He now repeated, that 
 there was not the remotest necessity 
 which could have called upon Hergami 
 to pass one single night, still less a 
 number of nights, under the tent with 
 her royal highness. Lieutenant How- 
 nam said, that he saw a bed up in the 
 dining room ; but he could not tell 
 whether a person always slept in it or 
 not during the voyage home. He would 
 ask their lordships, after taking all 
 the circumstances into view, whether 
 there was any place in which the crime 
 could be perpetrated with greater fa- 
 cility than under the tent? Was it 
 
 possible that any woman could thus, | Wale* 
 
 to expose herself in this way, it would 
 be aftet- the fatigues of a journey. On 
 these two cases, therefore, he felt no 
 hesitation in resting his belief of guilt, 
 on the case of the polacca, and that at 
 Aum. They amounted to a full judi- 
 cial proof, though not, perhaps, to a 
 complete moral conviction of guilt. 
 He begged, howerar, to call their lord- 
 ships' attention to sonae of the preli- 
 minary circumstances. It was asked, 
 whether, if previous to her coming on 
 board the polacc.i, no other circum- 
 stances had been proved, their lord- 
 ships would consider the'fact of sleeping 
 under the tent to be sufficient proof of 
 guilt? The case could not be argned 
 in that way. He must say that the 
 previous circumstances had fully estab- 
 lished the existence of an infatuated 
 attachment to this man. He would 
 appeal to those who had heard the evi- 
 dence, if there was not a case made 
 out to prove that her royal highness 
 was vehemently in love with Bergami. 
 This he would confess did not neces- 
 sarily imply euilt; but when the pas- 
 sion had previously manifested itself in 
 various acts, in a variety of circum- 
 stances, freat and saiall, what other 
 inference, hut that of criminal indul- 
 gence could be drawn from their sleep- 
 ing so long under the game tent ? If 
 such was not "the ca»e, he must ^ay 
 that the deeitions in th« ecclesiastical 
 court* of thig country formed a code of 
 as great cruelty ^nd injustice as wa» 
 ever impo6<»d on mankind. Before 
 closing all be had to say on the voyage 
 to Greece, he could not help taking 
 notice of the celebration of Bergami V 
 birth-day at Syracuse. Here, as had 
 been previously done at the Villa 
 d'Este, it was observad as a complete 
 festival. The princess and he walked 
 arm in arm, amidst the cries of " Long 
 live her royal highness the princess of 
 
 for thirty successive nights, sleep under 
 a closed tent with a man, and not leave 
 a moral conviction, either that adultery 
 was committed during the time, or 
 that it had been so frequently com- 
 mitted before, as to take away all desire 
 of pfofifing by the opportunity. It was 
 said, indeed, that upon some of these 
 oefcasions, while on shore, her majesty 
 was exhausted — that she was fatigued 
 by the journey of the day. This told 
 two ways : and he must say, if there 
 ikete any circumstances under which a 
 ilkoldbdt wbit\ah would be least inclined 
 
 55 
 
 Long live the chevalier Ber- 
 a:arai l" If such a circumstance had 
 been stated, before it appeared in 
 proof, could any person believe it? 
 Could it be supposed that her royal 
 highness, who then stood in the rela- 
 tion of wife to the prince regent of 
 England, would thus prostitute her 
 dignity, and act as if she stood in that 
 relation, not to the prince regent, but 
 to Bergami, to a man who only twelve 
 months before had acted as her courier 
 —had waited at her table. If this wa« 
 a case not unparalleled in the mo- 
 dern h^tory of any time ot nation, he 
 
4U 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEPf. 
 
 had read history to no purpose. One 
 or two poin s more before he closed. 
 He must say, that with respect to the 
 case at Carlsrhue, he considered it 
 proved. Their lordships heard the evi- 
 dence of Barbara Kress, and a more 
 ing^enuous, natural, and fair testimony 
 could not, in his opinion, he given. 
 He was ripht, therefore, in giving credit 
 to her testimony; and in weighing it 
 fairly against tlie circumstances brought 
 forward for the purpose of discrediting 
 her, he felt convinced that any judge, 
 upon this part of the case, would di- 
 rect a jury to find against her royal 
 highness. The case at Charnitz was 
 now different to what it appeared to be 
 after the statement of the Attorney- 
 General in opening the case, and that 
 of her majesty's Attorney- Gener,il in 
 opening the derfence. If it turned out 
 to be as stated by the King's Attorney- 
 General, it must be considered as 
 proved ; but completely shook, if the 
 circumstances were as stated by the 
 counsel for the queen. How did the 
 matter stand ? in consequence of some 
 defect in tlie passports, Bergami and 
 the chevalier Vassal! were sent to rec- 
 tify it, and they returned, as the laUer 
 stated, between two and three in the 
 morning. So far from there being any 
 necessity for packing up after tl'eir 
 arrival, the carriages had not, in fact, 
 been unpacked at all. They were left 
 at the barrier in the same state in 
 which they were brought there. The 
 princess ordered De Mont to place her 
 bed on the floor in her royal highness's 
 room, af.er Bergami and Vassali setoff 
 about ihe passport ; but on their re- 
 turn she was directed to take away her 
 bed. They were told that it was ne- 
 cessary for her royal highness's protec- 
 tion that a man should always sleep in 
 tite same room. Why then was not 
 De Mont considered sufficient upon 
 this occasion? Lieutenant Hownam 
 
 ducted, her royal higKiiess had every 
 advantage that could be granted. She 
 had full opportunity in the interval 
 that elapsed between the accusation 
 and the defence, of inquiring into the 
 character of the witnesses at Milan, 
 and of proving them unworthy of credit, 
 if they we e really so. This, however, 
 was done only in two instances. There 
 were s«ven who swore to gross fami- 
 liarity and indecency, against wh se 
 character, not a word had been proved 
 or even insinuated. It was objected, 
 that they never before mentioned the 
 circumstances to which they deposed, 
 and that this alone was sufficient to 
 throw discredit on their evidence. 
 Four, however, had never a question 
 put to them on the subject ; and one 
 swore that he told what he saw when 
 asked about it. Was all their testi- 
 mony to be put entirely out of consi- 
 deration ? With respect to the balls 
 given at the Barona, whatever might 
 have been said of the respectability of 
 the persons who attended them, there 
 appeared a great reluctance on the 
 part of Vassali and Tomasia to allow 
 their wives to attend them. The wife 
 of the former was never present on 
 these occasions, and it was doubtful if 
 the wife of the latter ever attended. 
 It was said to be nothing extraordinary 
 that the wife of Bergami should be ex- 
 cluded from the house of her royal 
 highness. It was not the exclusion of 
 the wife, but the inclusion of the va- 
 rious other members of the family that 
 seemed extraordinary. Not only was 
 she not taken into the house, she was 
 never even seen there, never attended 
 the balls, never appeared there upon 
 any occasion but one, and then she 
 was obliged to run away as fast as she 
 could, when it was known that the 
 princess had arrived. Why this, when 
 Bergami himself was acting as cham- 
 berlain, when his sister was dame 
 
 was in the bouse; why was he not d'honneur, when his brother filled the 
 
 called upon to act as protector in the 
 absence of Bergami ? If a man was 
 always necessary for her protection, 
 how did it happen, how could it 
 be rationally accounted for that Ber- 
 gami was invariably the man select- 
 ed ? Thousrh much of the seeming 
 inconsistency and contradiction in 
 Sacchi's evidonce might be fairly ex- 
 plained, he would allow it to be en- 
 tirely thrown out of the case. Still 
 enough remained. With respect to the 
 mode in which that case had been con- 
 
 place of equerry, when his nephew was 
 acting as stable boy ? Here, therefore, 
 were proofs of early familiarity with a 
 person in the situation of a menial ser- 
 vant, proofs that this familiarity after- 
 wards increased to a most extraordi- 
 nary degree, that the greatest favors 
 were lavished on him, that he dined 
 at the same table witti her royal high- 
 ness in his courier's dress, that he was 
 raised to the rank of baronet, the 
 order of Malta procnred for him, and 
 an estate purchased. It was proved 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEElf. 
 
 435 
 
 that upo» all ocoasiuns opportuiuties 
 were created for committing the crime. 
 What was the natural conclusion? 
 That the crime had been committed. 
 It was asked, why De >iont had not 
 proved more? It appea ed that her 
 royal highnegs was always in the habit 
 of follo^\ing her waitinj^ women to the 
 door, and locking it after them. This 
 mi.s;ht account for De Mout's not being 
 able to prove more. The noble earl 
 then proceeded to answer some objec- 
 tions to this mo ie of pioceeding. He 
 eontiMided, that it was, in fact, no 
 more than the common divorce bills 
 Avhich their lordships were in the habit 
 of passing ; that it imposed no greater 
 hardship. With respect to such bills, 
 a previous decision in an ecclesiastical 
 court was not always necessary, though 
 it was wise as a general rule. As to 
 the expediency, or (he inexpediency of 
 the measure, at the present tune, they 
 should not be influenced by that consi- 
 tleration. If they belioved her majesty 
 guilty, to reject the bill on the ground 
 of expediency, would be a complete 
 acquittal, and thus they would give, 
 under the most fatal circumstances, a 
 complete triumph to guilt. If their 
 lordships believed her guilty, the best 
 way would be to pronounce her so, re- 
 gardless of the consequences that might 
 follow. The vote he should now give 
 in support of the hill would be given in 
 integrity,: in a desire that justice should 
 be administered in m< rcy ; that the 
 illustrious personage should not be 
 treated with a more severe punishment 
 than the necessity of the case requir>. d ; 
 in a desire that complete justiie might 
 be done between the queen, the crown, 
 and the country. 
 
 Lord ARISEN spoke against the bill. 
 
 l,ord FALMOUTH only wished, after 
 the display of eloquence their lordships 
 had heard, to state the reasons that 
 .should govern his vote in the question 
 before ihfem. CJuiliy, or not guilty, he 
 took to be the «[uestion, but other con- 
 siderations also called for his attention. 
 To the divorce dause of the bill he 
 could not agree. He had heard the 
 more proper time to object to it would 
 be in the committee, but, en the other 
 hand, he also understood, that insu- 
 perable diffii ulties would there attend 
 it. Me could wish to have that point 
 explained ; for if it were not distinctly 
 stated that the divorce clause should 
 be omitted, he must vote against the 
 second reading of the bill. He was not 
 
 ignorant of th« ptfeoce of the queeu ; 
 but he was also not ignorant that the 
 queen should have tlioso rights enjoyed 
 
 ! by every other married woman (hoar, 
 
 : hear). 
 
 i Lords Ilairowby and EllenborougU 
 
 I here rose together, when the latter noble 
 
 i lord gave way. 
 
 Lord HAUROWHY only rose to say, 
 if there was any insuparahle difficulty 
 in getting rid of the divorce clause, 
 should certainly vote against the second 
 reading of the bill. He did not know 
 whether that were or were not the ca«e : 
 if it were, although he was one of those 
 who concurred with his noble friend iu 
 reconmiending inquiry into the subject 
 of her nmjf.siy's conduct, he would 
 certainly vote against the second r«ad. 
 
 ing« 
 
 Lord LAUDERDALE begged lo state, 
 that on every fair and just principle, he 
 should certainly votw agAiust the di- 
 vorce clause. 
 
 Lord FALMOUTH said he made no 
 allutiion whatever to the noble lord 
 (Lauderdale,) as holding a similar 
 opinion with himself, respecting the 
 divorce clause. 
 
 Lord ELLENBOROUGH: Though 
 he was one of the secret committee 
 who recommended an inquiry into the 
 conduct of the queen, he was still of 
 opinion, that to read the present bill a 
 second time, would be highly inexpe- 
 dient and detrimental to the public 
 interest (hear, hear). He wished their 
 lordships lo pioceed no further with the 
 hill. The noble lord on the woolsack 
 had told them, be just and fear not;'' 
 he begged leave to add, " Be politic 
 as well as just.'' It was said a modifi- 
 ca.ion of the bill would take place — an 
 opinion in which he did not agree. 
 Their lordships did right in his view, by 
 instituting an inquiry into the conduct 
 of her majesty : that inquiry had now 
 arrived to the present important point, 
 and they hereby evinced their regard for 
 public i;;orals and the maintenance of 
 the public interest. The object of passing 
 this bill would be, to affix a mark of 
 infamy on the queen ; but he feared Its 
 consequences wou'd be, lo excite a 
 greater violence in public feeling — to 
 produce a re-action — and in place of 
 creating a strong sense of moral feeling 
 throught the country, to induce the 
 very reverse : he should therefore vote 
 against the second reading of the bill. 
 But while he did this, he felt their lord- 
 ships would be deserting their duty, if 
 
43G 
 
 DFFENCi: OF THE QVliliK, 
 
 they sfparaJcd wllluiut 5(rung;ly cen- 
 suring^ (h<' conduct of licr »ru!jt'sty. A 
 queen \vns iioL required io be a v\<jman 
 of cxtrc o diiiary endovunents: but she 
 was ioquir< d to bo of pure and virtuous 
 conduct- Theqnetn of EnjilancS vas 
 one of the last tvoinen whom an ho- 
 nourable man cnaid wish lo sec asso- 
 ciate with his wife, or set an example 
 to his daughter. She was wholly unfit 
 to Jiold the situation of queen (hear, 
 liear). There was, however, a mode of 
 dealing with the coudutt of the queen, 
 of marking their iovdshps' cen?ure of 
 it, wiihout having; recourse lo a bill of 
 Pains and Penalties — lie meant by an 
 address to the crovin — by restricting 
 iter majesty in fue e:iercise of her 
 rights — by limlliisg her income, and 
 thereby reduce her to a privute station. 
 Oilier princesses, it was said, were 
 attached to pensnns inferior to them : 
 but what a difFerence in the situation of 
 an Essex and a menial ser?ant ! 
 
 " Lore, throtsgh certaisj alrainers vrell 
 
 refin'd, 
 *^ Corrects the sense and charms all 
 
 human kind ;" 
 
 But where were Ihe strainers in the 
 case of the queen? The conduct of 
 the queen excitrd his unalterable dis- 
 gust — and he wonld eta'e It — it was in 
 his view infamons and base. Under 
 all the circum9tancr(», howcrer, he 
 thought tftat^ parliament should not 
 enact a measare contrary lo the general 
 feeling of the country. Mow long was 
 this question to be before the country ? 
 How long vras the public business to be 
 neglected, the functions of government 
 luspended, the public mind agitated, 
 and the basest passions allowed to ga- 
 ther strength ? To put an end to these 
 things— and on the gronnd of the ex- 
 treme inexpediency of a bill of Pains 
 and Penalties, he should vote against 
 the bill being now read a second time. 
 (Hear, hear. J 
 
 At the cottchision of the noble lord's 
 epeecli, tome confusion prevailed in 
 the house and below the bar, when the 
 duke of Clarence, leaning forward 
 from the gallery, and significantly 
 pointing with his finger, called out in a 
 tone of emphasis and command, ** order, 
 below the bar." 
 
 Lord ASHBURTON, from the gal- 
 lery at the «ppositi')n side of the house, 
 addressed their lordships against the 
 bill. Let the evidence bewhat it might, 
 t^ey were about to enact an ez post 
 
 facto kiw, which, in iliself, was a mo t 
 objectionable proceedinir, T«chnically, 
 tlie t>ill v\as iistrodured to deprive the 
 queen of lier rights and privileges j 
 practically, it was for her exertion of a 
 natural rl!i;!U— -coming to the shores of 
 Great Britain, besides, the bill af- 
 fect'd interests which ought to be held 
 as sacred as those of the king himself 
 — ha meant the rights of tli se wiio 
 were now nearC'tthe (hrone. It wot:ld 
 throw these illustrious personages 
 farther from the crown. Exclusive of 
 these strong objections, he, considered 
 the bill generally to be preenaiit with 
 the warht consequences, and lie should 
 therefore oppose it. Or.e word with 
 regard to the elevation of Berj;ami, 
 Surely their lordships could not forg<^t 
 the elevation of Bonaparte, and (as we 
 understood) the pope ? 
 
 Lord ERSKINE (standing al the 
 ministerial side of the table) said, 
 their lordsliips should make a great 
 difference between action and inten- 
 tion, and in summing up as judges 
 should lean to the side of mercy, hie 
 should consider himself as addressing a 
 jury in the capacity of a judge, and 
 standing in that situation he should 
 first point out to them the impropriety 
 of forcing Into the jury box persons 
 who had acted in the capa^iity of grand 
 jurors. He should then, after laying 
 down before them the rules of evi- 
 dence, and urging the necessity of their 
 taking the whole demeanour of the 
 witnesses into their consideration 
 when they came to consider of their 
 verdict ; point out to their minds the 
 tainted manner in wliich the witnesses 
 came into cour: — the existence of a 
 general conspiracy, so far as it could 
 be collected, from the prosecutoi's 
 objection to the production of wit- 
 nesses who could prove it. All this, he 
 should tell them, had a most suspicious 
 appearance. He would, then, lay 
 before the jury the evidence in the 
 case — first, the alleged commission of 
 the act of adultery at Naples, upon 
 the testimony of De Mont, whom he 
 was sorry to hear his noble friend say 
 he thought continued to be good evi- 
 dence. In his (Lord Erskine's) judg- 
 iment, her testimony was wholly and 
 completely demolished. The noble 
 lord then related the particulars »)f a 
 case in whicii he was counsel, respect- 
 ing the probate of a will, in which a 
 Mr. Underwood was a party, and 
 shewed from it that a witness contra- 
 
DEFfiNCE OF THE QUEEW. 
 
 437 
 
 dieting herself, srtep by step, as I)e ! 
 Mout did, could not be considered by a | 
 a jud»e summing up to a jury .ts in the 
 sliglttest degiee credible. JJi^posiug, 
 therefore, of De Mont, he should point 
 out in the other wiinesses who receivcti, 
 and were to receive, exorbitant remuc^ 
 reratioii, the bi:is which attacheJ to 
 their conduct, and which ought to be 
 scrutinized. When they saw how in- 
 credible De Mont, Majochi, and Sacchi 
 had been made, what security had they 
 for the truth of any thing which 
 seemed plausible in the other witnesses. 
 But it appears that the queen iniglit 
 have called witnesses to repel thesse 
 statements. They had no right to argue 
 upon what might have been proved, 
 but on what had been deposed to; as 
 well, or indeed much better, might the 
 coungL'l for the prosecution have been 
 expected to call colonel Brown or Mr. 
 Powell, or ViJmacarli to prove the 
 manner in which the witnesses had 
 been obtained for this bill. Why not, 
 as would be done in the courts below, 
 shew their original depositions and 
 compare them with their statements in 
 couTi. lie could not help smiling at the 
 noble earl this morning when he talked 
 of the refusal of captain Pechell to 
 sit at table with Bergami, and that her 
 royal highness, if innocent, ought to 
 have remonstrated with the government 
 at home, as she might have done. She 
 remonstrate! Unhappy woman! per- 
 secuted and conspired against in every 
 corner of the world where she took dp 
 her residence, her remonstrance, if she 
 ventured one, would have little avail. 
 
 Lord De DUNSTANVILLE, in a 
 speech of considerable length, de- 
 clared that he should vote in favor of 
 tile bill. 
 
 Lord MANNERS considered the 
 preamble of the bill to have been suffi- 
 ciently proved. He thought the guilt 
 of the queen was manifest, and that 
 she had disqualified herself from ever 
 sitting- on the throne of these realms. 
 He should vote for the second reading 
 of the bill and for carrying it through 
 the other stages. 
 
 The Duke of NEWCASTLE arose, 
 amidst loud cries for the Marquis of 
 Lansdown. He had been present 
 during the whole case for the prose- 
 cution ; but, from circumstances of a 
 domestic nature, he had been absent 
 duripg the defence. Still, from all he 
 hud heard and had been able to collect, 
 he was satisfied that the crime of 
 
 adultery, on th© part of the queen, 
 bad bt^en clearly .'lud indi-'puiably 
 prpvcif, and proved ni^o umler circum- 
 stances of the most oixcrus^ting and de- 
 grading character. With these feel- 
 iiigs he should von* not only tor the 
 second reading of the bill, but for in- 
 Uicting on hi' queen the full penalties 
 which it enacted. 
 
 The Marquis of LANSDOWN was 
 glad and sorry the noble duke had had 
 an opportunity of addressing the house. 
 Glad, beo.use he was ena led (o ex- 
 ])lain his reasons fi>r the vote hi", shonid 
 give ; and ^orry i\yn be had heaid tbosfe" 
 reasons stntod. The noble duke said 
 that he had been present during the 
 evidence for the prosecution in tliii 
 case, but that from dom;*stic reasons, 
 from circumstances of his own con^ 
 venience, he had been absent during 
 the defence. He had not heard tho 
 arguments or the testimony given in 
 ♦favor of tlie queen, and yet the noble 
 duke, so ignorant ol the full bearings 
 of this caac, said he was prepared to 
 vote, not only for the second reiiding; 
 of this bill, but for the full penal ie^ 
 against tlie queen (hear, hear) He had 
 no doubt that the noble duke had 
 formed this judgment conscientiously ; 
 but how, he apprehended, the noble 
 duke would find it diflicult to explain 
 (hear, hear, hear). How, he would 
 ask, could the noble duke, as a jwr-r, 
 come to such a conchi-ion ? (loud and 
 reiterated cheers). The constitution 
 of the country, as it applied to the 
 sacred sanction of trial by jury, was 
 only good, because it compelled the 
 jurors to liiten to the whole case (hear, 
 hear). „ It wis but a short time before 
 they were told that the public were 
 incompetent to form a juc^gment upon 
 this ^question, because they were not 
 present at the proceedings ; then how, 
 he would ask, was the noble duke, ac- 
 cording to this doctrine, to be consi- 
 dered as a competent judge of the 
 question; or how was he as a juror to 
 form such a judgment (cheers). Had 
 ho not, by his absence, disqualiHed 
 himself from coming to the vote which 
 they would be called upon to give that 
 night? (hear, hear). He spoke warmly, 
 but he felt warmly, and sitting as a 
 fellow juror, he could not refrain from 
 adverting to this subject- The noble 
 marquis then proceeded to comment 
 upon the case generally, and to ^tate 
 his reasons for voting against the bill. 
 Before he had come to a conclusion. 
 
438 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 The Lord CHANCELLOR inlimatcd 
 the inconvenience of coming to a vote 
 that night, as many noble lords, he 
 knew, were desirous of delivering 
 their sentiments on this important 
 fiubject. * 
 
 The house adjourned at half pa^t four. 
 
 MONDAY, Nov. 6. 
 The marquis of LANSDOWN re- 
 sumed Ihe speech iu making which he 
 was interrupted by the adjournment on 
 Saturday. He wished now to call their 
 attention to whai was slated in evidence 
 to have occurred at Aum. How could 
 noble lords opposite j rofess their 
 readiness to dismiss from their minds 
 the evidence of De Mont and Majochi 
 — the only evidence upon which the 
 criminal case was founded (hear). How 
 could they adhere to the Aum case, 
 and yet abandon the testimony which 
 alone had reference to it. VViih regard 
 to the alle-;ation5 at Carlsrhue, he con- 
 fessed, that coni'iderin^ the circum- 
 stances under which Kress was com- 
 pelled to give her testimony — con- 
 sidering that the same power by which 
 she «as so tompelled to come, had 
 compelled the only witness w!io was 
 likely to contradict h-r to stay away 
 —considering the>.e circnmslances, he 
 felt himself ctailed upon to dismiss her 
 testimony altogether from the case. 
 Desides, in ihe present unsifted state of 
 her testimony, it was not clear but that 
 she herself was deceived, and that the 
 countess Oldi was the person whom she 
 mistook for the princess of Wales. The 
 noble earl opposite also said, that Kress 
 had come voluntarily forward — he even 
 accredited herevidenceon (hat assump- 
 tion ; but the evidence of Kress her- 
 self was the b.st refutation of such a 
 statement. The noble Earl (Liverpool) 
 in announcing himself and his col- 
 leagues as prosecutors, sated in the 
 face of their lordships, that he wished 
 only the elucidation of the truth; but 
 was the best way to come at the truth 
 to suppress those witnesses, who from 
 their knowledge of particular facts, 
 would have been the best possible wit- 
 nesses ? Dr. Holland was at Naples with 
 her majesty ; he was above all suspicion : 
 tvhy was he not called on the part of 
 the prosecution ? Why was not Anne 
 Freisings called, the person who had the 
 care of the linen — the person who 
 usually nmde the beds at Naples? If 
 adultery were there coiBHiitted--^nd 
 
 thAre the flrit ground of ofFtnoe was laid 
 — Anne Preisings would have been the 
 best possible evidence to prove it if it 
 had occurred ? Why was not Crcdi, 
 Maurice Credi produced, who had lived, 
 and long, in the service of her royal 
 highness ; who could prove the bribery 
 by Ompteda, and the attempts to pick 
 the locks of his illustrious mistress. If 
 the truth alone were the noble earr« 
 object, why were not these witnesses 
 called forward? The conduct of her 
 majesty at Naples was left pare and un- 
 touched. The charge against her ma- 
 jesty was adultery, and not levity ; and 
 if he were called upon to pronounce a 
 verdict on the latter, it would be guilty. 
 But then their lordships should recollect 
 the very peculiar situation of the prin- 
 cess of Wales, He did not wish to enter 
 into those ctiuses that reduced her royal 
 highness to the pxposure necessarily re- . 
 suiting from her being obliired to act a 
 solitary part for such a series of years. 
 But it could not be denied that she was 
 refused — that she was denied those sup- 
 ports and guides, which were the best 
 safeguards for circumspection of be- 
 haviour (Hear, hear, hear.) They should 
 recollect they were now passing a law, 
 and not a sentence; that they were not 
 now the administrators of the law of the 
 land; but enacting a punislinient, on 
 which the public would form their own 
 estimate, That public opinion alrea'dy 
 said, the bill before theirlordships would 
 he the nio^t violent application of a 
 most violent measure, and on a bare pre- 
 sumption ; that because tive years ago, 
 the princess of Wales and her chamber- 
 lain were placed in a situation iu which 
 adultery might he committed, that it 
 therefore actually took place. But her 
 majesty was not now prosecuted for 
 adultery, but for the public scandal 
 which her conduct gave all Europe, and 
 particularly gave Great Britain. Public 
 scandal to this country ! In the eyes of 
 whom ? Public scandal-— where, and to 
 whom ? On board a polacca,and before 
 Garginlo and Paturzd! Thesemen were, 
 forsooth, the representatives of Great 
 Britain and all Europe ; these were the 
 men to justify -the preamble of the bill ; 
 and yet when their lordships examined 
 in whose eyes such great scandal and 
 public degradation to England and to 
 Europe were proved — they could only 
 find the eyes of Garginlo and Paturzo ! 
 How did it happen, however, that these 
 men never told those storiefe uatil they 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 43d 
 
 were rumniag^ed o«t by the Milan com- 
 mission ? He entreated the house, wliile 
 they had yet time to reflect, to pause 
 hefore they g-ave their assent to a 
 measure, the existence of which they 
 might hereafter have hut too much 
 reason to lament. 
 
 The Duke of NORTHUMBERLAND 
 expressed his conscieutiuus conviction 
 that, through along course of time, a 
 most gross and indecent familiarity, 
 and an adulterous intercourse had 
 taken place between her royal high- 
 ness the Princess of Wales and her 
 servant Bergami. With this impres- 
 sion on his mind, he, for one, could 
 not consent that such a person should 
 continue to claim that respect which 
 was due to the queen consort of these 
 realms — nor could be think that she 
 was a person who ought to be at the 
 head of the female society in this 
 country. (Hear.) Upon these grounds 
 he confessed he felt no hesitation in 
 giving his vote for this bill. 
 
 Lord HOWARD, from the view 
 which he took of the evidence, did not 
 think that the preamble of the bill had 
 been sufficiently sustained. He con- 
 sidered that Majochi, De Mont, and 
 Rastelli, were not deserving of credit ; 
 he considered also, that other wit- 
 nesses who had been called were not 
 entitled to the fullest confidence. 
 With these impressions, combined with 
 the fact of Rastelli havin? been sent 
 out of the country by Mr. Powell— with 
 Kress having been compelled to come 
 over here to give evidence, while the 
 baron d'Ende was not compelled to 
 come— that such a taint had been 
 thrown upon the whole case, as to 
 render it obnoxious and unsatisfactory 
 to the population of the country (hear, 
 hear}. He could not give his assent 
 to this bill unless the charges con- 
 tained in the preamble were indis- 
 putably proved. 
 
 The Earl of INNISKILLEN con- 
 sidered the evidence comprised such a 
 mass of contradiction, and was so 
 suspicious, that he could not possibly 
 convict any person upon it. He should 
 therefore vote against the second read- 
 ing of the bill (hear, hear). 
 
 Lord CALTHORPE could never give 
 his sanction to such a measure, nor 
 would he vote for its pmceeiliug a step 
 further towards its rempletion. With 
 this strong feeling against the bill, his 
 feelings were no less strong as to the 
 
 conduct of the queen. It was of a 
 most shameful and disgraceful nature. 
 The laws of God, the interests of 
 morals and of society, forbad them to 
 call such acts by extenuating names. 
 He felt, therefore, that, upon this oc- 
 casion, the house was placed in a pain- 
 ful dilemma. As the supreme guar- 
 dians of public morals, he must regret 
 that there was no other alternative pro- 
 posed to them than that of acquittal 
 or supporting this most objectionable 
 measure. What had been proved 
 against her majesty was of an offensive 
 and degrading kind, and it was highly 
 desirable that some other mode should 
 be proposed by which an opinion might 
 be pronounced upon it. It would be 
 highly injurious to public morals if 
 they expressed no opinion on the gross 
 licentiousness that had been proved 
 againsj the queen. 
 
 The Marquis of STAFFORD opposed 
 the bill. 
 
 Lord DE CLIFFORD thought the 
 evidence proved that a shameful fami- 
 liarity existed between her majesty and 
 a person of low condition. At the 
 same time that he admitted this, he 
 could not forget the state of long sepa- 
 ration in which her majesty had lived 
 from her husband, and that if she had 
 been in a different situation, there 
 would be no cause for this painful in- 
 quiry. On these grotinds he would 
 oppose the second reading. 
 
 Lord GRANTHAM anticipated so 
 many difficulties in the progress of the 
 bill through this and the other House 
 of Parliament, that it was impossible . 
 for human foresight to provide against 
 them : he thought it, therefore, better 
 that the bill should not pass at all. 
 He was aware that, by throwing it out, 
 they would afford a triumph to a mis- 
 chievous party in the country, who 
 were equally indifferent about king or 
 queen. This might be the case : but 
 the triumph would be only temporary. 
 The good sense and sound feeling of 
 the country would at last form a right 
 judgment of the business. If this 
 was a case of impeachment, he should 
 know how to make up his mind on it. 
 Though there were many contradic- 
 tions in the evidence, it could not be 
 denied that it left a heavy weight of 
 suspicion upon her majesty. Many of 
 the witnesses were overturned,but there 
 were also many whose testimony re- 
 mained in full force. Though he 
 
440 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 would say Not Content to this bill, he 
 could uut put his hand on his heatt, 
 and say not guiltv. 
 
 The Earl of BLESSINGTON op- 
 posed the bill, and pointed out some 
 cwntradictions in the evidence with re- 
 spect to what occurred ou board the 
 polacca. 
 
 Lord GOSPORT also opposed the 
 bill. The evidence ought to be such 
 as left no doubt on the mind. This, 
 he must say, was not the case. He 
 could not see how the bill could pass 
 either with or without the divorce 
 c1biiS6 
 
 The Duke of ATHOL briefly sup- 
 ported the bill. 
 
 The Duke of SOMERSET consi- 
 dered it unjust^ and therefore op- 
 po<:ed it. 
 
 Lord GRENVILLE, in a speech of 
 considerable length, supported the 
 bill. He had given the subject the 
 best consideration in his power, and 
 upon a careful examination of the evi- 
 dence, he could not do otherwise than 
 support the cu(^stiow, that the bill be j 
 then read a second time. No one, he ! 
 thought, could vote for the second \ 
 reading of the hill without having a ' 
 full judicial prpz-iimplion of her ma- 
 jesty's guilt (hear.) He regretted 
 that he him^elf felt so, and he must 
 therefore voice for the second reading 
 of the bill, reserving to himself, how- 
 eyer, to alter his opinion in the case, 
 either with respect to the divorce 
 clause, which, as it now stoorl, he 
 thoiight a necessary part of the hill. 
 
 Earl ROSSLYN said, even though 
 their lordship*; had had many circum- 
 stances proved which led to suspicion, 
 yet as they did not go to one direct 
 fact, but were spread ail over the evi- 
 dence, he thought they could have 
 but very little weight with any honest 
 or candid mind. It was proved beyond 
 a doubt, that many of the witnesses 
 were corrupted by the agents of the 
 Milan Commission, and he was there- 
 fore at a loss to "see how accumulative 
 falsehoods could lead to a fair pre- 
 sumption of guilt. 
 
 At the conclusion of the Earl of 
 Rosslyn's speech, at three o'clock, 
 there were loud cries of ** Question," 
 and strangers were ordered to with- 
 draw. 
 
 THE DIVISION. 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR baving 
 caHed upon each peer, he rdfee'io biS' 
 
 place, and said, "Content, or Non- 
 
 content." 
 
 The result was, 
 
 Contents 123 
 
 Nou-conteuts •....•>••• 9b 
 
 Majority lor the second readiu?, 2b 
 
 Adjoiirned till to-morrow at 
 ten o'clock. 
 
 LIST OF PEERS 
 
 who voted for and against the second read- 
 ing of the Degradation Sf Divorce^iLl. 
 
 FOR THE SECOND READING. 
 
 DUKES of York, Clarence, Beaufort, 
 Rutland, Newcastle, Northumberland, 
 Wellinsrton, Athol, and Montrose; 
 
 MARQUISES Conyngham,Anglesea, 
 Camden, Northampton, Exeter, Head- 
 fort, Thomond, Cornwal!is, Bucking- 
 ham, Lothiau, Queensberry, Win- 
 chester. 
 
 EARLS Harconrt. Brooke and War- 
 wick, Portsmouth, Pomfret, Maccles- 
 field, Aylesford, Balcarras, Hume, 
 Coventry, RochfordjAbingdon, Shaftes- 
 bury, Cardigan, Winchelsea,S»amfo'd, 
 Bridgewater. Huntingdon, We«itmor- 
 land, Harrowby, St. Germains. Brown- 
 low, Whitworth, Verulam, Cathcart, 
 Mulgrave, Lonsdale, Oiford, Manvers, 
 Rosse, Nelson, Powis, Limerick, 
 Dououghmore, Belmore, Mayo, Long- 
 ford, Mount (-ashel, Kingston, Liver- 
 pool, Digbv, Mount Edgcombe, Aber- 
 gavenny, Aylesbury, Bathurst, Chat- 
 ham. 
 
 VISCOUNTS Exmonth, Lake, Sid- 
 mouth, Melville, Curzon, Sydney, Fal- 
 mouth, and Hereford. 
 
 BARONS Soraers, Rodney, Middle- 
 ton, Napier, Colville, Gray, Salfoun, 
 Forbes, Prudhoe, Harris, Ro>s or 
 Glasgow, Meldrum, Hill, Combermere, 
 Hopetoun, Gambler, Manners, Ailsa, 
 Lauderdale, Sheffield, Redesdale, St. 
 Helens, Northwick, Bolton, Eldon, C. 
 Bayning, Carrington, De Dunstaville, 
 Brodrick, Stewart of Garlics, Stewart 
 of Castle Stewart, Douglas, Morton, 
 Grenville, Suffield, Montagu, Gordon 
 (Huntley), and Saltersford. 
 
 ARCHBISHOPS Canterbury and 
 Tuam. 
 
 BISHOPS London, St, Asaph, Wor- 
 cestor, St. David's, Ely, Chester, Pe- 
 terborough, LlandaflF, Cork and Rosse, 
 and Glocester. 
 
 AGAINST THE SECONG READING. 
 
 DUKES of Glocestfer, Soiijerset, Ha- 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN, 
 
 441 
 
 milton, Argyll, Leinster, Grafton, Port- 
 laud, Devonshire, Bedford, Richmond, 
 (St. Albans, absent from illness). 
 
 MARQUISSES Bath, Stafford, and 
 Lmsdown. 
 
 EARLS De Lawarr, Ilchester, Dar- 
 lington, Egremout, Fit/william, Stan- 
 hope, Cowper, Dartmouth, Oxford, 
 Rosel)erry, Jersey, Albemarle, Piy- 
 moHtb, Essex, Thailet, Denbisjh, Suf- 
 folk, Pembroke, Derby, Blesinjjton, 
 Morley, Minlo, Harewood, Grey, Gos- 
 ford, Romney, Rosslyn, Caledon, En- 
 uiskillen, Farnbam, Carrick, Carnar- 
 von, Mansfield, Foriescue, Grosvenor, 
 Hillsborouijh ^Marqwis of Downshire). 
 VISCOUNTS Granville, Anson, 
 Duncan, Hood, Torriuglon, Boling- 
 broke. 
 
 BARONS Ashburton, Bagot, Wal- 
 singham, Dyuevor, Foley, Hawke, 
 Ducie, Holland, Grantham, King, Bel- 
 haven, Clifton (Darnley), Say and 
 Sele, Howard of Effingham, De la 
 Zoucb, Clinton, Dacre, Audley, De 
 Clifford, Breadalbane, Erskine, Arden, j 
 Ellenborongh, Alvanley, Loftus (M. 
 Ely), Fitzgibbon, Calthorpc, Dawnay, 
 Yarb>)rough, Doudas, SeUea, Meudip, 
 Auckland, Gage, Fishervvick (M. Do- 
 negall), Amherst, Kenyon, Sherborne 
 and Berwick. 
 
 ARCHBISHOP of York. 
 
 TUESDAY, November 7. 
 PROTEST FROM HER MAJESTY. 
 
 We believe the order of the day was 
 about to be read, when 
 
 Lord DACRE rose, and stated, that 
 since he had come into the house this 
 morniag, a protest, with respect to its 
 proceedings, on the part of her majesty 
 the queen, had been unexpectedly put 
 into his bands to be presented. It 
 might, perhaps, surprise their lordships 
 that such a paper should have been 
 placed in his hands, as he had taken 
 no part io tlie proceedings on this 
 important case; and he ought to apo- 
 logise to their lordships for not having . 
 at an earlier stage expressed his opi- 
 i>i<>n of it. His objection to bills of 
 P.iins and Penalties for the punishment 
 of ujoral turpitude, long since com- 
 miite.l, was so invincibly strong, that 
 lie never felt the least hesitation in de- 
 clarins: it. He hoped that the protest 
 which had been placed in his hands 
 would he liberally heard by the house ; 
 but whatever were his sentiments on 
 the proceeding in general, he must 
 object to the practice of judges, jury, 
 
 5G 
 
 and prosecutors, all voting in this case 
 against the queen. With respect to 
 the protest now entrusted to him, he 
 would acknowledge that there was no 
 precedent for receiving it ; but the 
 country would form their opinion of 
 the conduct of the house, and prece- 
 dent ought never to interrupt the 
 equitable course of justice and of truth. 
 He had scarcely had time to read over 
 the protest of the queen, but it ap- 
 peared that in the face of her family, 
 the house, and the country, i-he 5.0- 
 lemnly protested against the proceed- 
 ings in that house, as contrary 10 the • 
 constitution, to the spirit of the law-, 
 and the principles of common justire. 
 The noble lord concluded with reading 
 her majesty's protest, which w as couched 
 in the following terms ; 
 PROTEST. 
 ** Caroline Regina. 
 ♦* to the lords spiritual and tem- 
 poral, in parliament assembled. 
 
 *' The queen has learnt the decision 
 of the lords upou the bill now before 
 them. In the face of Parliament, of 
 her family, and of her country, she 
 does solemnly protest against it. 
 
 ** Those who avowed themselves he|: 
 prosecutors have presumed to sit in 
 judgment on the question between the 
 queen and themselves. 
 
 ** Peers have given their votes against 
 her who had heard the whole evidence 
 for the charge, and absented them- 
 selves during her defence. 
 
 " Others have come to the discussion 
 from the Secret Committee, with minds 
 biassed by a mass of slander, which 
 her enemies have not dared to bring 
 forward in the light. 
 
 ** The queen does not avail berself 
 of her right to appear before the com- 
 mittee, for to her the details of the 
 measure must be a matter of indif- 
 ference ; and unless the course of these 
 unexampled proceedings should bring 
 the Bill before the other branch of the 
 Legislature, she will make no reference 
 whatever to the treatment experienced 
 by her during the last twenty-five 
 years. 
 
 ** She now most deliberately, and 
 before God, asserts, that she is 
 wholly innocent of the crime laid to 
 her charge, and she awaits with un- 
 abated confidence the final result of 
 this unparalleled investigation. 
 (Signed) *' CAROLINE REGINA." 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR said, 
 he humbly conceived, that, after the 
 
ut 
 
 DEFHNCB OF THK QUBBN; 
 
 second reading of the bill, according to 
 the practice of their lordships, the ac- 
 cused miijht be personally heard 
 against it. It was, therefore, for their 
 lordships to consider if they would re- 
 ceive the protest, as in the case of 
 Bishop Atterbury and some others. 
 It certainly might be received as an 
 address to the house, by the party who 
 was supposed to be aggrieved in the 
 event of passing the bill ; but as a 
 protest, he was apprehensive it could 
 not be received by the house, con- 
 
 » sistently with their established forms. 
 Lord ])ACRE was aware of the 
 difficulty that had been stated by the 
 noble and learned lord, but he hoped 
 that their lordships would not press 
 upon her majesty the necessity of ap- 
 pearing in person, for the purpose of 
 presenting her protest to the house. 
 If this course were insisted on, he must 
 confess that he entertained but little 
 hope of the result, when he considered 
 how imperfeclly her majesty would be 
 able to address them in a language not 
 familiar to her, owing to circum- 
 stances which their lordships could ap- 
 preciate, and which left her little or 
 rather no prospect of succeeding in 
 such a case. He trusted that her ma- 
 jesty's rank and situation would so 
 far influence their lordships at this 
 crisis, as to induce them to receive her 
 sentiments in some other form. If, 
 indeed, it could be received as an ad- 
 dress, rather than a protest, he had no 
 obiectiou to offer it under that form. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL had no 
 desire to resist the reception of the 
 protest, "if offered to their lordships in 
 another form. He conceived the most 
 convenient wiy was, that if the paper 
 were received by the house, it should 
 be entered on their lordships' journals, 
 that it had been received as an address 
 only, and as containing what her ma- 
 jesty would have offered to the house, 
 if shp had been personallv there. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR said, 
 he should not have discharged his duty 
 if he had not given due notice to the 
 house that her majesty's protest could 
 not be received as such. He wished 
 to make no observations on the con- 
 tents of the paper which was now ten- 
 dered by the noble lord ; btit he cer- 
 tainly was at a loss to know on what 
 princi le the writer had felt authorised 
 to make observations on what passed 
 
 » at their bar, the conduct of the house 
 iu general; and also tU^t of iudividuiU 
 
 peers. But if their lordships chose ttt 
 receive it as an address, he left it 
 entirely to them, and they were at li- 
 berty to take it. 
 
 The Earl of LAUDERDALE was -f 
 opinion that the paper might be re- 
 ceived as the address of her majesty, 
 and be recorded as such on the journals 
 of the house, but nothing ought to be 
 added to it. 
 
 The Duke of NEWCASTLE, wh» 
 conceived he had been attacked by the 
 protest of her majesty, wished to say, 
 that, from the very origin of this pro- 
 ceeding, he supposed, if any peer were 
 by accident or casualty at all deprived 
 of the ability of attending on any oc- 
 casion, he was not, nevertheless, to be 
 prevented from giving his vote.^ He 
 had enjoyed full opportunities of read- 
 ing the evidence as published by au- 
 thority of the house, on which, after 
 all, the decision of the noble lords 
 could alone be formed, and that evi- 
 dence, he could safely say, he had in- 
 tensely studied. No slander, there- 
 fore, could compel him to surrender 
 his right as a peer of Parliament, while 
 giving his vote conscientiously, as he 
 had done on the present occasion. 
 He declared, in conclusion, that he 
 was determined fearlessly to pursue 
 his duty, without regard to aspermons 
 of any kind, either there or else- 
 where. 
 
 Lord SOMERS said, that owing, as 
 their lordships knew, to a severe in- 
 disposition which confined him to his 
 bed, he was unable to attend to some 
 part of their proceedings. He had, 
 however, paid great attention to every 
 other part of the evidence ; for he hap- 
 pened to be seated near the bar, and 
 heard everything that passed there; 
 atid he had since not only read, but 
 digested the whole of the case with all 
 the carefulness and judgment that ic 
 required. His firm persuasion was, 
 rhat the queen was guilty of the sub- 
 stantial parts ol the charges againsther. 
 
 Lord SHEFFIELD regretted that he 
 had been absent during any part of the 
 proceedings ; but justified his voting 
 on the ground of that absence having 
 been occasioned by illness. 
 
 The Earl of CARNARVON spoke 
 at considerable length, urging that the 
 protest of her majesty was in all re- 
 spects well founded. Its contents as 
 to matter of fact were strictly true, 
 and, in bis opinion, it ought to appear 
 on their jouraaU. 
 
DBFINCE OF THE QVEBI7. 
 
 443 
 
 Th. LORD CHANCELLOR argued 
 ill favour of the c<Jur^c which the 
 house had taken thruugliout the whole 
 of this important case. His lordsliip 
 then moved, that the protest should be 
 entered on the journals, accompanied 
 with the foUoiviHg^ resolution : — Tlie 
 resolution, proposed by the Lord Cban- 
 callor, ♦* That the house, uotwilhstand- 
 in^^ the exceptionable matter in some 
 parts of the paper, did, nevertheless, 
 ujder all the circumstances of the 
 case, ccnsenc to its rece[)tion, as a re- 
 presentation of what her majesty had 
 fnriher to state to the h'luse in that 
 stajje of the proceeding," was then 
 read. 
 
 The Earl of LAUDERDALE sug- 
 gested, that th« word justly should be 
 inserted in the resolution before the 
 word exceptionable. He thought that 
 such an alteration was necessary to 
 preserve the honour and dignity of the 
 house. 
 
 After some observations from Earl 
 GREY, who considered the exception 
 iu her majesty's protest extremely just ; 
 and from Lord REDESDALE, who 
 thought the allusions to the Secret Com- 
 mittee false and scandalous. 
 
 The resolution, proposed by the 
 Lord Chaiicellor, with the insertion of 
 the word '* justly," was agreed to. 
 
 THE COMMITTEE ON THE BILL. 
 
 On the order of the day for going 
 into the committee being read. 
 
 Earl DARNLEY felt it his duty, 
 most solemnly to protest, in this as iu 
 every other stage of this bil)^ against 
 its further progress. He then con- 
 gratulated the house upon the division 
 of the preceding day, as the country 
 would, from the noble lords who formed 
 the majority, be able to appreciate the 
 real character of the queen's oppo- 
 nents. He would say, that, according 
 1o his view of human nature, it was 
 utterly impossibie that any person who 
 had been placed in the situation in 
 which some of their lordships had 
 stood, could withstand the infirmities 
 to which all were subject. Yet a large 
 proportion of the majority had con- 
 sisted of the accusers themselves — a 
 ^reat proportion consisted of persons 
 who were iu the habit of receiving 
 favors from the crown, and he would 
 state one fact which appeared to him 
 a material one, namely, that ten of the 
 junior bar«ns had voted for the bill, 
 whilst the eighteen senior barons had 
 voted against it. From this fact be 
 
 the only alterations h« deemed neces- 
 could only draw one inference, and that 
 was, that it had not been owing to! any 
 individual infirmity, pecuLar to them- 
 selves, but owing to that irresistible 
 bias arising from circumstances, which 
 whils' human nature remained what it 
 was, ought always to disqualify per- 
 sons in such a situation from becoming 
 judges. 
 
 On the motion of the Earl of LIVER- 
 POOL the house resolved into a com- 
 mitter. 
 
 The Earl of Liverpool then rose, and 
 referred to the alteration which it 
 migh; now be necessary to make in the 
 preamble. Many changes might bte 
 introduced. The preamble might be 
 so altered as materially to alter all the 
 enactments, and the question, there- 
 fore, now was, how far the preamble 
 of the bill had been proved. He would 
 now read the preamble, and state such 
 alterations as he deemed necessary; 
 the first was, the name of the indivi- 
 dual who was so conspicuous in these 
 proceedings, which he wished to be 
 altered to " Bartolomeo Bergami," 
 instead of Bartholomo Pergami. He 
 would also ipove, in allusion to the 
 many favours alleged to be conferred 
 by her majesty on him and his family, 
 that the words of the preamble, charg- 
 ing the queen with having " obtained 
 for him orders of knighthood and titles 
 of honor," should be struck out — not 
 that he had any doubt of the fact, but 
 it had not been proved iu evidence. 
 This, he wished it to be understood, 
 was not through any prudential consi- 
 deration. He would now come to a 
 most material part of the preamble, 
 which stated, that ♦* while her royal 
 highness had the said Bartolomeo Ber- 
 gami in her service, she, unmindful of 
 her exalted birth and station, and re- 
 gardless of her own honor, conducted 
 herself towards Bergami, in the various 
 places and countries where her royal 
 highness visited, with indecent and 
 offensive familiarity and freedom." 
 He would stop here and say, the 
 charge was perfect without the mono- 
 syllable " the," as now prefixed to 
 " various places." If ** the" remained,*' 
 it would seem to imply, that such fa- 
 miliarities and freedom had takeu 
 place in all of such places, which was 
 not tUe fact. He would move, that the 
 word " the" should be struck out, and 
 that it should stand, *' in various 
 pla«ts andl countries." Thtie wer« 
 
444 
 
 DEFExNCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 sary, and he would afterwards have 
 occasion to state, that the preamble 
 had been fully proved. 
 
 The Earl of SHAFTESBURY read 
 the amended preamble, and inquired 
 if any other Uttile lord had any altera- 
 tion to suggest in the preamble ? 
 
 The motion being made bv the earl 
 of LIVERPOOL, that the 'name of 
 Bergami should stand as ** Bartolomeo 
 Bergami," wi;hout the addition of the 
 alias *' Pergami," it was carried with- 
 out any dissent. 
 
 He then moved the erasure from the 
 preamble of " her majesty having pro- 
 cured for him orders of knighthood and 
 titles of honour." 
 
 Lord ERSKIIVE said, their lordships 
 were, in his opinion, going fo strike 
 out the only part of the preamble that 
 was true, lie (lord Erskine) did not 
 believe that the degrading intercourse 
 with which the queen had been charged 
 had been pr ved. 
 
 Aftt^r some observations from lord 
 CRENVILLE, lord ELLENBO- 
 ROUGII, and lord LIVERPOOL, the 
 words proposed were expunged. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, their 
 attention was now to be directed to a 
 very material allegation, he meant that 
 which pointed to those parts of the evi- 
 dence establisliing the fact of the qQeen 
 having indulged in indecen^and offen- 
 sive familiarity and freedom with Ber- 
 gami,* in different places which they 
 visited. The noble earl then recapi- 
 tulated those facts which had been 
 proved at their lordships' bar, which 
 waranted this part of the preamble. 
 
 A short discussion followed, which 
 ended in the motion that this part of 
 the preamble should remain as in the 
 original bill. 
 
 The Earl of CARNARVON pro- 
 posed that, after the words, ** her 
 royal highness's residence abroad," the 
 following shoujd be inserted: "and 
 subsequently to her return refused 
 50,000/. of the public money, and the 
 proffered homage of both houses of 
 Parliament." 
 
 The Earl of DONOUGHMORE sug- 
 gested that the amendment might be 
 pr posed mc re conveniently in a sub- 
 ^fetrquent stage of the bill. 
 
 After a few words from Lord EL- 
 LENBOROUGH, the amendment was 
 withdrawn, and the words agreed to as 
 they originally stood. 
 
 The Chairman having come to the 
 concluding enactment of the bill, '* and 
 
 moreover that the marriage between 
 his majesty and the said queen, Caro- 
 line Amelia Elizabeth, be, and the 
 same is hereby from henceforth for 
 ever wholly dissolved, annulled, and 
 made void, to all intents, constructions, 
 and purposes wl atsoever," 
 
 Tlie Archbishop of YORK rose to 
 oppose the clause. On the principle of 
 fair and impartial justice, he thought 
 it Could not be allowed to remain in the 
 bill. He did not mean to argue the 
 question on grounds of expediency, for 
 in the Bible he found no mention of 
 such a thing as religions expediency 
 to justify such a proceeding. Marriage 
 was not merely a civil contract, but a 
 solemn ordinance oi" religion, and upon 
 this question, he could look only to the 
 word of God, as the guide of his con- 
 duct. Looking to this alone as his 
 guide, he could not consent to have the 
 divorce clause retained. If, however, 
 this clause was expunged, and the 
 lither enactments of the bill agreed to, 
 their lordships would exhibit to the 
 world the extraordinary and monstrous 
 spectacle of a degraded queen still con- 
 tinuing the spouse of the sovereign. 
 From this dilemma he saw no way of 
 escape but by rejecting the bill alto- 
 gether. In voting against the second 
 reading yesterday, he had this very 
 difficulty in contemplation, Ou the 
 evidence itself he had no hesitation in 
 making up his mind ; and, though as 
 a legislator he would say non-content 
 to the bill, if called upon as a judge to 
 deliver his sentiments, he must say, 
 guilty. In his view of the case it would 
 have been much better had the bill 
 never been introduced. It was lament- 
 able to reflect how deeply the interests 
 of morality must have been injured by 
 the emanation from their lordships' 
 bar of such evidence as had come out 
 in the course of this inquiry, by the in- 
 troduction into every family, of such 
 odious and disgusting details. The in- 
 terests of morality and religion must be 
 still more vitally injured by persevering 
 in a measure which was derogatory to 
 the honour and dignity of the crown, 
 and injurious to the best interests of 
 the people, which gave the utmost pain 
 to every good man, and tended most 
 effectually to forward the views of a 
 party whose object was to vilify the con- 
 stituted authorities, and to bring into 
 disgrace all that was most sacred and 
 venerable in the laws and constitution 
 of the country. When it first came to 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 445 
 
 his knowledge that such a measure vras j 
 in contemplation he deprecated.il/and 
 he prayed God that they might not 
 have cause for the rest of their lives to 
 regret that it was ever proposed. 
 
 The Bishop of CHESTER said, that | 
 having no doubt that the crime of 
 adultery had been proved against her 
 majesty, he voted yesterday for the se- 
 -cond reading of the bill. This vote, 
 however, he gave on an understanding 
 that the divorce clause was not to con- 
 tinue in it. Though convinced that an 
 adulterous intercourse had taken place 
 with Bergami, he should not have sup- 
 ported the second reading, but under 
 an idea that this clause would be ex- 
 punged. 
 
 The Archbishop of CANTERBURY 
 felt it necessary, after what had fallen 
 from the Right Rev. and Most Rev. 
 Prelates who spoke last, to state the 
 grounds of the vote he should give in 
 favour of the clause. It was said that 
 marriage was a solemn ordinance of 
 religion, not merely a civil contract, 
 and that, consistently with the prin- 
 ciples of the Christian Religion, the 
 clause of divorce could not be agreed 
 to in this bill. The question, therefore 
 was, whether divorces e vinculo matri- 
 moniij for the cause of adultery were 
 consistent with the law of God ? and 
 this question, he thought, must be 
 answered in the affirmative. He rested 
 his opinion on" grave authorities, ante- 
 cedent and subsequent to the Reforma- 
 tion ; such divorces were consistent 
 with the word of God, and were not 
 contravened by the tenor or the consti- 
 tutions of the Established Church, or 
 of the Common Law. Marriage being 
 the foundation of society, it was there- 
 fore an anxious and important object 
 with every country to prevent its disso- 
 lution as much as possible ; but, as 
 ■well before as after the Reformation, 
 divorces were allowed in cases of adul- 
 tery. In the Mosaic law they were 
 permitted, as well for general as for 
 special causes. Our Saviour altered 
 the Mosaic Law in this respect, by 
 declaring, that where a dissolution of 
 marriage took placeforany other cause 
 except that of adultery, he who thus 
 put away his wife, caused her to com- 
 mit adultery. The passage, with the 
 exception, was found in Matthew, but 
 not in Mark or Luke. They gave the 
 general rule without the exception. In 
 the Scriptures, therefore, there was no 
 authority for divorce, at least in cases 
 
 of adultery. Their marriage laws were 
 founded on the Scriptures, leaving 
 adultery, however, to special provi- 
 sions. In this case the charge of adul- 
 tery had been inquired into, and, in his 
 opinion, fully established. This being 
 his idea, he saw no objection of a reli- 
 gious nature to the clause. It was in a 
 religious point of view he considered it, 
 and not thinking it inconsistent with 
 the doctrines of Christianity, as acted 
 upon both before and alter the Refor- 
 mation, he would therefore support the 
 
 TheBishop of WINCHESTER op- 
 posed the clause. He spoke in so low 
 a tone of voice as to.be quite inaudible 
 below the bar. 
 
 The Bishop of LANDAFF said, that 
 he had heard the evidence and exa- 
 mined well the Law of Divorce, and 
 he could not help saying, that he saw 
 no objection to the clause, for it was 
 consistent with the Ecclesiastical Law, 
 and with the holy Scriptures. The vio- 
 lation of the marriage vow on the part 
 of the husband did not alter the cir- 
 cumstances against the wife, for there 
 was DO qualification in the Scripture 
 in favor of the wife because the hus- 
 band had acted improperly. 
 
 The Bishop of LONDON said, he 
 would state his opinion shortly upon 
 the subject, after having given it the 
 most anxious attention in his power. 
 He could not entirely subscribe to the 
 sentiments of the right reverend pre- 
 late who spoke last. There was a great 
 constitutional principle involved in this 
 rase. It was said by an able writer, 
 that the king could do no wrong — 
 that he could not be guilty of a folly, 
 much less a crime. This principle, if 
 carried to the full length, would seem 
 to remove all ground for recrimination, 
 all inquiry into the conduct of his ma- 
 jesty in his conjugal relations. He did 
 not however, mean to argue it on such 
 a principle. He saw no reason why 
 ihe clause of divorce should not re- 
 main. There were many instances of 
 bills of divorce having passed that house, 
 though the conduct of the husband was 
 notoriously reprehensible. The essen- 
 tial point was the proof of adultery, 
 which he considered to be established 
 in the present instance, and therefore 
 in a moral, constitutional, and reli- 
 gious point of view, he felt it his duty 
 to support the clause. 
 
 The Earl of LAUDERDALE said, 
 that when princes contracted marriage, 
 
446 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 they were bound, like others, to ob- 
 serve the conditions of the contract, 
 both civil and religious, and the same 
 relief was open to them as to others, in 
 the event of misconduct on either side. 
 Her majesty, however, stood in a situ- 
 ation, as the wife of tlie king, very dif- 
 ferent to other married women. There 
 were many important rights conferred 
 on her — many high privileges. Their 
 lordships now thought her incapable of 
 holding them, and the object of the 
 bill was to place her in such a situa- 
 tion that she could no longer exercise 
 them. Further he would not go. To 
 allow the divorce clause to remain 
 would be equivalent to saying, that 
 tliere was to be one law for the king 
 and another for the people. As to the 
 principle laid down by the reverend 
 prelate who spoke last, that the king 
 could do no wrong, it did not apply in 
 this case. That house required, that 
 when a husband came there for relief by a 
 bill of divorce, he should beabletoshew 
 that he was not accessary to the guilt of 
 bis wife. Though adul.ery was not a 
 crime at Common Law, it was held to 
 be a crime in the Ecclesiastical Courts. 
 According to the Civil Law, it was a 
 peccutunif not a crime. He would (airly 
 own that he at first considered that the 
 clause must be a natural consequence; 
 he had since altered his opinion. 
 
 The Earl of DARNLEY said, he did 
 not feel perfectly satisfied with the rea- 
 sons assigned by the right reverend 
 metropolitan, who had argued, that 
 by the law contained in the holy Scrip- 
 tures, a man might put away his wife. 
 One difficulty arose in his mind, and if 
 the right reverend prelate referred to 
 these writings, he would find this text 
 — •* Whosoever putteth away his wife, 
 excepting for fornication, forceth her 
 to commit adultery." Now he would put 
 the question to the right reverend pre- 
 late, regardless of the consequences, 
 whether 'he woman who had been de- 
 fended at their lordships* bar had not 
 been put away by her husband ; and if 
 so, whether he did or did not believe 
 that be had caused her to commit adul- 
 tery ; and whether, if he had so put her 
 away, without having committed forni- 
 cation, he could or could not come to 
 that house for a divorce, and whether 
 they could or could not grant it. It ap- 
 peared to him that they could not. He 
 would repeat what he had before ob- 
 served, that the bill could not pass either 
 with the dirorct claust or w ithout it. 
 
 The Bishop of LONDON e«plaiued. 
 He remembered that the text to which 
 the noble lord had alluded, had always 
 been considered as applying to the law 
 of Muses. There wa^ a custom among 
 the Israelites, by which a man gave a 
 written bill of divorce to his wife; now, 
 unless the woman had been previously 
 guilty of fornication, the man was not 
 released from the moral obligation of 
 his marriage vow, nor could he marry 
 again. This was the interpretation that 
 was put upon the text by all the com- 
 mentators who had v^ritten upon the 
 subject. 
 
 The Earl of DONOUGIIMORE was 
 much surprised at the reason that had 
 been assigned I y his noble friend 
 (Lauderdale) for resisting tlie clause 
 for divorce, after the almost unani- 
 mous opinion that had been delivered 
 upon that point by the right reverend 
 bench of prelates, although he must 
 allow, that the explicit and plain rea- 
 sons that had been given by the right 
 reverend prelate (York) against the 
 clause, were such as must entitle him 
 to the veneration and respect of their 
 lordships. He concluded by stating 
 that he considered it a measure of state 
 necessity, and that it ought to pas*? 
 altogether. 
 
 Lord HARROWBV said, that with- 
 out the slightest reference to the par- 
 ties, he did not think the circumstances 
 were such as to justify the clause of 
 divorce, neither by the laws of God. 
 nor by those which were usually acted 
 upon in that house. There might, upon 
 some occasions, be a stat^ necessity 
 that might render the clause of di- 
 vorce indispensable, as, for instance, 
 the securing the legitimate succession 
 to the crown ; but as he did not feel 
 that such a necessity existed in the pre- 
 sent case, he could not be justified in 
 voting for it» 
 
 Earl FITZWILLIAM then addressed 
 the house at some length, but his 
 speech was wholly inaudible below the 
 baf ; we understood his lordship spoke 
 against the clause, and considered it 
 an unnecessary interference between 
 man and wife, ,when neither of the 
 parties claimed it. 
 
 Lord LIVERPOOL had distinctly 
 stated in an earlier part of their pro- 
 ceedings, that if, after mature delibe- 
 ration, their lordships should be of 
 opinion that substantial justice did not 
 require the clause for divorce, he 
 ihould not press it; he had also, in 
 
DCFBNC5B OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 447 
 
 anotlier tta^e of the proceedings, ex- 
 pressly declared, that so far from wish- 
 ing this clause to pass, as a matter of 
 personal convenience to the king, he 
 was prepared, if such should appear to 
 be the opinion of the house, to with- 
 draw the clause altogether. Having 
 said thus much, he now came to the 
 question immediately before their lord- 
 ships. He (lord Liverpool) did not say 
 the present bill should be considered in 
 the light of a bill of divorce, and it ap- 
 peared to him a general mistake pre- 
 vailed both as to the effect and prin- 
 ciple of the present bill. He had stated 
 it as a public measure, and not a mea- 
 sure of private relief. In the case of the 
 present illustrious parties it could not 
 be considered a measure of private re- 
 lief; and even in the sti'ongest case, 
 where the line of succession might be 
 endangered— «ven in the case of a 
 young king having a young wife— even 
 in that case their lordships could not 
 treat it as a matter of private relief. 
 The present, he contended, was a 
 public measure, brou'zht in and sup- 
 ported on public principles. With re- 
 spect to the sovereign, he never came 
 for a divorce ; he was not as king, a 
 party to the divorce. With respect 
 also to recrimination ; the king rould 
 be made amenable for his conduct : 
 and then would it be said, that under 
 no circumstances could a king ask for 
 a divorce? We know, said his lord- 
 ship, that a separation has now existed 
 between his majesty and the queen for 
 a period of four and twenty years. We 
 know that this separation was in a 
 great degree sanctioned by the late 
 king, and afterwards confirmed by an 
 Act of Parliament. We thus know a 
 separation has taken place, and under 
 such circumstances it now appears 
 whether your lordships ought to go 
 further, whether you ought to go to the 
 total dissolution of the marriage ? I do 
 not myself feel those doubts, but I 
 cannot avoid allowing their full weight 
 to those doubts. And I do say when a 
 strong religious feeling is against the 
 divorce, and no great public necessity 
 presses its adoption, that it is better in 
 such circumstances to yield. He himself 
 felt no objection to the divorce clause; 
 but if it were struck out, it would be 
 necessary to adopt a clause confirming 
 the separation. That clause would be 
 quite distinct from a divorce clause, 
 i^Bd sbould be iniert^j "» t^* bilJ> in 
 
 order to prevent thoge ineonvenieneea 
 which might otherwise arise. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR spoke 
 at considerable length on the question 
 as it affected the divorce between the 
 royal parties. It was a question of 
 considerable difficulty, and he reserved 
 his opinion till discussions threw more 
 Jisrht on the subject. 
 
 Tlie Lord Chancellor moved the 
 adjournment of the house. 
 
 The Marquis of LANSDOWN op- 
 posed the bill in toto, and contended, he 
 was not bound to do any thing in con- 
 sequence of the division of yesterday. 
 
 Lord DUNCAN said that the charge 
 against her majesty was only supported 
 by a foul conspiracy and perjured wit- 
 nesses, and he would not, therefore, 
 let the assertion go forth to the world, 
 that guilt had been proved to his sa- 
 tisfaction. (Here there were loud 
 cries of " Question I") when a con- 
 versation between Lords Grey, Liver- 
 pool, and Shaftesbury, took place as to 
 the mode of putting the question for 
 adjournment ; and ultimately the house 
 adjourned till to-morrow. 
 
 WEDNESDAY, Nov. 8. 
 
 DISCUSSION ON THE DIVORCE 
 
 CLAUSE CONTINUED. 
 
 The committee havinar been resumed. 
 The archbishop ot TUAM rose.— In 
 consequence of the call made, the house 
 was yesterday in a committee. So much 
 had already been said on the 32d verse 
 of the 5th chapter of St. Matthew, that, 
 although his mind had long since been 
 made up to vote against the divorce 
 clause in this hill, he did not think it 
 necessary, in the view he took of the 
 subject, to trouble their lordships with 
 any observations on the application of 
 that text. But if he could show that 
 the illustrious lady whose conduct was 
 now under discussien had been put 
 away by her husband— if he could also 
 show that, among the numerous texts of 
 scripture, there were some which con- 
 tained solemn denunciations of the 
 Almighty for sanctioning such putting 
 away, he felt that he then should show a 
 safe ground to induce him to vote against 
 that clause, which would have the effect 
 of dissolving the marriage contract in 
 this case. Now, as all this could be 
 shown and proved, it was impossible for 
 him to agree to the clause in question. 
 In the first place, with respect to the 
 pnttiiig away, he Ihouglit that, ia proof 
 
448 
 
 DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 of that fact, he might fairly alhid<» to the 
 letter written hy the king soon after his 
 marriag-e, and which had been given in 
 evidence at the har. In the second 
 place, in proof of the divine denun- 
 ciation, he would refer to the second 
 chapter of the book of Malachi the 
 prophet. It would there he found that 
 the Lord had turned away his face from 
 the people: and it was stated by the 
 propliet that their offering was no longer 
 received with good will, because the 
 altar was covered by the tears, and the 
 temple filled with the lamentations, of 
 injured women importuning heaven, and 
 calling down vengeance on those who 
 dealt treacherously wirh them. The pro- 
 phet enforces this hy remindinj? those 
 he addresses of the ohject of the first 
 institution of marriage, and in conclu- 
 sion says — " For the Lord, the God of 
 Israel, saith, that he hateth putting- 
 away.'* Having stated this, he had now 
 to ohserve, that he stood hefore their 
 lordships a most unwilling judge in this 
 case; and he candidly confessed that 
 nothing hut force, nothing hut the 
 heavy penalty to which he would have 
 exposed himself by his absence, would 
 have induced him to have attended the 
 house during this distressing inquiry. 
 He had been brought there by com- 
 pulsion. He had beeu forced away 
 from important duties — duties which no 
 man on earth but himself was entitled 
 to perform, and which had, therefore re- 
 mained suspended for the last three 
 months. Having been forced to appear 
 daily in that house, he had paid every 
 attention in Iws power to what had 
 passedbefore their lordships on both sides 
 of the question — to the able statements 
 made by the counsel in support of the 
 bill — in her majesty's defence — to all the 
 evidence — and to all the eloquent 
 speeches which had been delivered on 
 the subject by noble lords in that house. 
 He had attended during every day, every 
 hour, nay, he might say, every minute 
 of the proceedings. He had voted for 
 the second reading of the bill, because 
 there was then no other question before 
 the house, and no other way in which he 
 eould act conformably to the opinion he 
 had formed, which was that a satisfac- 
 toiy, an irresistible rase had been made 
 out for the bill. But his conscience never 
 conld be reconciled to this divorce 
 clause. He never would a^fee to vote 
 for it, and therefore hoped it would now 
 be struck out. It would be better to 
 
 leave the conduct of the queen unno* 
 ticed, and the question of degradation 
 untouched, than to pass the bill with 
 thi^ clause. 
 
 The bishop of PETERBOROUGH 
 observed, that the noble and learned 
 lord on the woolsack had referred to 
 the opinion of the bench of bishops in 
 this clause. It was, however, with 
 much difficulty that he answered the 
 call ; and this could not surprise their 
 lordships, as the noble and learned 
 lord himself, whose mind was so com- 
 prehensive as to embrace every part 
 of this question, had declared that he 
 felt himself involved in considerable 
 difficulty on this occasion. For his 
 own part, he confessed that he had 
 never, in the whole course of his life, 
 entered with more anxiety on any sub- 
 ject than on the discussion of this d - 
 vorce clause. It had ever been hig 
 anxious desire to see, if possible, 
 whether this divorce clause could not 
 be omitted ; it was not upon any 
 doubts he entertained respecting the 
 principle of legislating upon such a 
 clause, for he was firmly persuaded that 
 in cases of adultery the infliction of 
 divorce was consonant both to the laws 
 of God and man. He was, respecting 
 this bill, compelled to acknowledge, 
 though with great pain, that such a 
 crime had in this case Been proved 
 against the queen ; but, on the other 
 hand, when he looked at all the cir- 
 cumstances connected with the hill 
 before the house, he thought the situa- 
 tion of the parties were in part widely 
 different from that in those cases^where 
 a divorce was ordinarily inflicted for 
 that crime ; and it was that difference 
 in the cases which operated upon his 
 mind, and made him most anxious that 
 the divorce clause should not be in- 
 cluded in the hill of Pains and Penal- 
 ties (hear). On the other hand, he 
 must confess he felt at a great loss how 
 the divorce clause could, be got rid of, 
 considering the state of the case. He 
 saw, after all the consideration he could 
 give the subject, the many difficulties, 
 to him almost insnrmountable, which 
 must attend the omission of the clause 
 in such an enactment. He could not 
 see how the queen could be legally and 
 effectually placed in a state of degra- 
 dation, and yet at the same time remain 
 the wife of the king. (Hear.) He was 
 unable to comprehend how the clause ef 
 deprivation from the title, station, and 
 prerogatives of queen, could be made 
 
BEFEXCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 449 
 
 fTAttiisteut ia its appeMraiice and rR>ct 
 will) *ut the diforce Ctaufttv The wife 
 of the kin^ ouglit to aii intents and 
 purposes, be queen-consort; and if to 
 i<U legal purposes she was to reni:iin 
 tile fvedded queen, he could not see by 
 ^hat possible tuactm.nt the degra- 
 dauon from her public rank could be 
 carried into complete eftVct. TJje di- 
 vorce clau e, indeed, m;ide tiie clause 
 of degradation intelligible; but, with- 
 out it, he could not see how the bill 
 could be legally operative for the 
 other purpose (Hear.) He therefore, 
 humbly submitted, that some clause 
 should, if possible, be framed in sub- 
 fctituti^n of the divorce clause, so as to 
 render the bill consistent in its ope- 
 ration. What the consequences would 
 be be was not prepared to say, nor 
 could lie dovise any measure so as to 
 extiicate them from their present diffi- 
 culty. It was for others to say whether 
 a clause could not be arranged less 
 powerful in its c^eration than the 
 present, and yet sufficienllj strong to 
 give force to the enactment on which 
 the house bad decided, and to obviate 
 the difficulties which were felt upon the 
 subject. His objections, he had already 
 stated, were chiefly of a religious 
 Dature, and feeling them, he, as well as 
 bis right reverend brethren around 
 biro, were bound to express them, and 
 act according to their dictates (hear). 
 Matrimony was not only a religious \ 
 but a civil contract — in the latter sense, i 
 it led to civil rights. Was it not pos- ! 
 gihle that the latter could be rescinded ( 
 without affecting the force of the j 
 former — that is, that the legal rights ! 
 appertaining to the civil contract should j 
 cease, and the religious branch of the 
 contract, remain unaffected ? He was 
 too little acquainted with the common 
 law to solve the difficulty himself, or 
 undertake to propose any specific form 
 of clause adequate for the purpose in 
 view ; but if something of the kind 
 we-e framed, it would remove the 
 difficulty he felt upon the subject. 
 Having now delivered his opinion, he 
 should not detain the house any further 
 than to thank them for their attention, 
 and to apologize for having trespassed 
 upon their patience. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 The archbishop of YORK had no 
 desire to convert this chamber into an 
 arena for polemical controversy, but 
 he felt himself called upon to say a 
 few words ia explan^tioQ of what be 
 
 &7 
 
 bad iaid on a former occalon. He faal 
 n«!ver asserted, or meant to assert, that 
 the crime of adultery was not con- 
 sidered in scripture as sufficient ground 
 for the enactment of a d.vorqe, but 
 only that, consist<nily with his own 
 conclusion from the meaning of the 
 general tenets of scripture, the mnr- 
 ria^c union must be considered as im- 
 posing a reciprocal obligation upon 
 tliij parties who contracted the mar- 
 riage. Where that reciprocity was not 
 manifested by the parties themselves 
 in their sense of the obligation they 
 had incurred, he could not consent l« 
 a clauite of divorce, (hear.) 
 
 Lord REDES DALE expressed his 
 opinion in favor of the divorce clause. 
 He agreed that marriage was a civil, 
 and in some sense a religious contract • 
 bat it was, more properly speaking, 
 a religious vow rather than a religious 
 contract, and from that vow he was 
 ready to admit no earthly power could 
 give a discharge, except in the case of 
 adultery. 
 
 The Lord CHANCELLOR said that 
 he could not express his feelings upoo 
 the present painful subject without 
 stating the reasons by which his 
 anxious opinion was influenced. He 
 had stated yesterday that he wished to 
 defer giving his opinion conclusively 
 upon this braneh of the subject until 
 he had received all the light which 
 could be let in upon the question : 
 since that period he had endeavoured 
 to obtain whatever information upon 
 the point was within his reach. With 
 respect to the declaration which had 
 been made upon this clause at the 
 beginning of the discussion upon this 
 subject by his noble friend near him 
 (the earl of Liverpool), he hedged to 
 be understood as a party to rt now, 
 though he had not so expressed himself 
 at the time. His noble friend on the 
 former occasion had said that this clause 
 should not be pressed, if it was found 
 objectionable to the opinion of th^ 
 religious part of the community. If 
 such were the general impressioq, he 
 (the Lord Chancellor) thought it ad- 
 visable that the clause ought not to b« 
 pressed against such a feeling, though 
 ho himself, for one, thought it would 
 be more wise to retain the clnuse. 
 
 The Marquis of LANSDOWN sup. 
 ported the clause. Nothing could be so 
 anomalous as a woman continuing the 
 wife of Ihe klnf, and yet not being qaean 
 
4&§ 
 
 BBPBNCB or THE QUEEN. 
 
 eetfiort* The legislatare never did nor ; 
 could have contemplated lite degra- , 
 dation of the queen, and her still re- 
 maining the wife of the king (hear) ; i 
 the connexion, in fact subsisting j 
 without promoting or tending- to the j 
 accomplishment of any of the pur- ! 
 poses for which the legiilature always! 
 regulated the marriage condition of the j 
 parties. It was not for him, who had 
 disapproved of the bill altogether, to 
 reconcile the extraordinary inconsis- 
 tency .which it would present, if the 
 divorce clause were separated from the 
 clause of degradation ; but it was for 
 the supporteri of the bill to reconcile 
 the abandonment of the one clause 
 with the retention of the other upon 
 any principle known to the consti- 
 tution, or recognized by any of its le- 
 gislative provisions which governed 
 contracts of this description, in which 
 the state was concerned. 
 
 Lord KING said he felt himself in a 
 situation of rather an extraordinary 
 kind upon this question ; and the house 
 in his view, fully participated with hiai 
 in that feeling. There had been a con- 
 fusion of opinions amongst the minis- 
 ters—there had been a confusion of 
 opinions aljo amongst the lawyers — 
 (a laugh) and a confusion of opinions 
 amongst the learned prelates. — (Hear.) 
 Upon this clause there were scruples, 
 both religious and political, wiih re- 
 spect to lis probable operation. Cer- 
 tainly the scruples of the learned 
 prelates must aiise from religious con- 
 siderationH,. and l>e regretted that 
 amongst that learned body, the fathers 
 of the chorch, there had not been that 
 corift^mity of opinion which the 
 church of England required, and on 
 which it so much prided it«elf. (Hear.) 
 He was extremely sorry that the noble 
 and learned lord on the woolsack had 
 not derived from those to whoiw he had 
 looked with such confidence, infor- 
 mation of a more convincing and en*' 
 lightened character. (A laugh.) But 
 if he had not received instruction from 
 the reverend prelates, he could derive 
 consolation from them ; for among 
 them, as among lawyers, there ap- 
 peared to be difficulty and doubt. 
 (Laughter.) But the noble and learned 
 lord had, with a quickness somewhat 
 extraordinary, collected from the con- 
 flicting sentiments of the learned pre- 
 lates a very cleftr idea of the neces- 
 Atf of the cfanse, although he had been 
 
 so full of scruples, the day before, as 
 to beg that he might hear every thing 
 before he gave his opinion. In look- 
 ing to the question, as it generally af- 
 fected the queen and the country, be 
 could not help saying that he was in- 
 fluenced by reports which had reached 
 him at former periods respecting the 
 conduct of the queen. It was not to 
 be denied that many noble lords had 
 felt the influence of reports which 
 were not legal evidence. He alluded 
 to those reports respecting her ma- 
 jesty*s conduct which had for so long a 
 period been in circulation, and which, 
 he believed, could not have been so 
 completely shaken off as it were to be 
 wished they should have been, when 
 noble lords came to consider the second 
 reading of the bill. At the period to 
 whieh he had alluded, it was said, that 
 the queen had been guilty of the 
 grreatest indecencies, not withBergami, 
 but with other persMis; that her ma- 
 jesty, at Blackheaih, had been guilty 
 of indecorum with lord Liverpool ! 
 (loud laughter;)— and that she had 
 played at blindman's buff with the 
 Chancellor of the Exchequer ! (con- 
 tinued laughter). He C^rd King) 
 could not refer to the exact period at 
 which those extraordinary and inde- 
 cent proceedings took place. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL : " They 
 never took place !" — (hear). 
 
 Lord KING: *< I cannot, I assure 
 vour lordships, refer to the exact time, 
 but it must have been, I think, when 
 the noble earl was out of place, and 
 looking for means to get into of1ic« 
 —before the reg-encv I" (laughter). 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL : " Nevtc, 
 upon my honor :" — (hear). 
 
 Lord KING said, it was then aa 
 instance to the noble earl of the falsity 
 of reports. fMuch laughter). 
 
 Earl GREY would vote for the clause 
 in the hope that it would put the 
 house in such a situation as to force 
 them to reject the bill altogether. 
 
 The Earl of DONOUGHMORE sup. 
 ported his former opinion, and was in 
 favour of the clause. 
 
 Lord ELLENBOROUGH said that 
 to continue the queen the wife of the 
 kinsj after the proofs which had been 
 ofl'ered against her would be sanction- 
 ing a seditions libel against the king. 
 
 LordSOMERS agreed with the noble 
 lord who spoke last, and would not 
 v«t« f»f the thwwift* vut the •Uuw. 
 
DfiFENCB OF TUB QUWCIf. 
 
 451 
 
 The Earl of UMERICK also s.ip- 
 ported the clause. Jt would be degra- 
 diiiS to the king and the nation to tie 
 a wumau to the ktug who would dis- 
 grace any sitnation. 
 
 The Earl of ESSEX haying opposed 
 the bill, could not recoucile to himself 
 to vote in favour of this clause. He 
 had no doubt that at no distant period 
 the foul conspiracy ag^ainst her ma- 
 jesty would be developed. 
 
 Lord ANSON entirely agreed with 
 the statement of a noble earl below 
 (earl Grey), and would vote for the 
 divorce, in order to give the greatest 
 possible chance of throwing out the 
 bdl (liear), a bill which imputed guilt 
 to no Innocent que-eo. (hear.) 
 
 Earl CAKNARVON would give his 
 vote ill favour of this clause. He 
 begged their lordships to consider what 
 the Consequence would be of passing 
 a bill of degradation without divorce. 
 The consequence did not appear to 
 have been adverted to. They were all 
 aware of a statute which made it high 
 treason to violate the wife of the sove- 
 reign. They proposed to pass a bill of 
 degradation in order to furnish public 
 scandal, and to protect the morality of 
 \bf country (cheers). Her majesty 
 «iight still remain in the kingdom, and 
 might continue to indulge in that vice 
 v.bich they assumed to be proved, and 
 any individual might commit what by 
 the statute of Edward III, was high 
 treason. Would any noble lord say 
 that her prosecutors could come to 
 that house for a second bill of pains 
 and penalties against her majesty ? 
 If this were purely a bill of divorce, no 
 ground whatever con id be assumed 
 for degradation but the ground of di- 
 vorce on account of adultery. Were 
 their lordships to declare, by their 
 vote, that a person not fit to be the 
 associate of the meanest individual in 
 the land, was yet a fit individual to be 
 the associate of the king ? He, for 
 one, would never concur in such a 
 wanton, unnecessary, premeditated 
 insult to the king (hear, hear). Against 
 such an insult, though sanctioned by 
 the adviser* of the crown^ he would 
 raise bis voice. 
 
 Lord HOLLAND supported the 
 clause. 
 
 The Marquis of BUCKINGHAM 
 said he looked not to the effect of the 
 present question on the ultimate fate 
 «f the bill. The only question before 
 the foinmittee wis, wbclber ift wai fit 
 
 to retain tbis clause after the evidence 
 had warranted the second reading.' 
 He had attended most anxiously to the 
 rever.?nd bench of bishops, who had 
 inquired into the relij^ious considera- 
 tions on tbis subject; and the result 
 convinced him that by the law of God 
 there was no impediment to divorces 
 in the case of adultery. 
 
 Lord Ross, earl Manvers, lord 
 Hampden, the earl of Darnley, and 
 earl Belhaven, also supported the 
 clause. 
 
 The Earl of SHAFTESBURY, as 
 chairman, then rose amidst loud cries 
 of *' Question, question." Having 
 recitetl the clause providing for the 
 divorce of their majesties, he pro- 
 ceeded to put the question, ** That the 
 words proposed to be left out stand 
 part of the clause." He then declared 
 that he thought the Nou-contents bad 
 it. A division was immediately called 
 for. The house was accordingly cleared 
 at about half-past twelve ; it was not 
 opened again for the admission of 
 strangers ; but at one o'clock it was 
 announced that their lordships had ad- 
 journed, having divided thus : 
 
 Contents >..* 129 
 
 Non-contents ....• 62 
 
 Majority in favour of the 
 
 divorce clause 67 
 
 While straugers were excluded,) we 
 understand that Lord KING ri>se, and 
 said that he should offer no apology 
 for submitting to their lordships a 
 clause, the insertion of which in the 
 bill seemed a matter of course, con- 
 sidering that the queen wa* not re- 
 motely placed in the illustrious line of 
 princes in the succession to the crov|[La 
 of these realms. The crown was li- 
 mited to her majesty, in the event of 
 certain persons predeceasing her, and 
 that by the most sacred and funda- 
 mental laws of the land. If it devolved 
 on her» the well-known loyalty of their 
 lordships must at once make them 
 adopt a different view of the present 
 question ; and, looking forward to that 
 event, they must be equally ready to 
 provide for it. He therefore moved 
 this clause : ** And be it further enacted, 
 by the authority aforesaid, that in 
 case the crown of these realms shall at 
 any time descend to her said Majesty 
 Caroline Amelia Elizabeth, then, and 
 in such case, this present act, and all 
 the mttters and things contained 
 therein, shall bteome utterly void and 
 
m 
 
 DEFENtK ©P Till? ^UEB.t* 
 
 *f n® effept, »nd the whole of the pre- 
 amble thereof shall be deemed and 
 taken to be faUc, calumnious, and 
 scandalous, upon the same evidence 
 on which it hath now been held to be 
 $iift\eieutly proved." (Loud cheering, 
 with some cries of order.) 
 
 L<.rd COLVILLE (c.f Culross, in 
 Scotland, and, one of the Scotch peer*') 
 roae, wiih much waimtb, to vindicate 
 himself, and those who acted with him 
 in favour of the bill. He said they 
 veve aspersed— -they were attacked — 
 bv thii antiiion. He denied the ju<iticc 
 of the imputation, and he felt it due to 
 his own conscience, and that of those 
 who voted with him in this measure, 
 t.» say that they acicd conscientiously 
 it! it ; and that they still did support 
 the bill. 
 
 After some further discussion the 
 clause was rejected without a division. 
 *«-The houee resumed, and the report 
 was ordered to be read to-morrow. 
 
 Minority i^ the housr of lords 
 
 that voted for expunging the 
 divorce clause. 
 
 LORDS Hill, Rodney, Yarboron^h, 
 Salioun, Bayninj;:, Keuyon, HopeU^uu, 
 SbfReld, Calthorpe, Comberraere, 
 Sidney, Cttrzon, Falmouth. 
 
 BISHOPS of Chester, Cork, Peter- 
 liorough, Glocesier, St. A<aph, St. 
 David's, Ely, Worcester. 
 
 EARLS of Winchelsea, Courtown, 
 Alotiut Cashel, Romney, Stamford, 
 Brownlow, Fitzwilliam, Stanhope, Bal- 
 carras, Dartmouth, Aylesford, Veru- 
 1am, Morton, Portsmouth, Caledon, 
 Lauderdale, St. Germains, Aylesbury, 
 Macclesfield, Lonsdale, Mount-Bdj^e- 
 combe, Farnham, Pomfret, Whitwonh, 
 Mavo, Shaftesbury. 
 
 MARQUIS Cornwallis. 
 DUICES of Clarence, Portland, 
 i^eauforti 
 
 ARCHBISHOPS of York and Tuam. 
 
 CABINET MINISTERS. — Sid- 
 tnouth, Melville, Bathurst, Harrowby, 
 Muljfrave, Liverpool, Westmorland, 
 Wellington, Eldou C. 
 
 PROtEStS AGAINST THE SECOWD READ- 
 IN G OF THE BILL OF PAINS AND 
 PENALTIES. 
 DlSSENTIEIfT, No. L Nov. 6, 1820, 
 
 B^ause the second reading^ of the 
 bill is equivalent to a decision that 
 ^dHheroilt intercourse (tb« oaly foun- 
 
 dation on tihich the bill ram rest) hsi 
 been satisfactorily proved. 
 
 Because that adulterous intercourse 
 has been inferred, but not proved | 
 and in a doubtful case, in which the 
 imputed guilt is not proved, although 
 innocence be not established, the be- 
 nefit of that *lonbt, conformably to the 
 prjncij>les of British justice, muit be 
 given to the defeudani. 
 
 Essex (first reast'n only), Hilsbo- 
 rough (first reason oid>), Kenyon, 
 Orford, Somerset, Seist-a, Ro»e- 
 l)ery, jMurhy (first reason only), 
 LcMusier, Mansfield, Euuiskilleu, 
 Richmond and Lennox, Jersey 
 (first reason only), Carrick, Grat- 
 ton (first reason only), Anson 
 (diiio), Darlington (ditto), Bel- 
 haven (ditto). 
 Dissentient, No. H.— Because this 
 proceeciing, from its nature, cannot be 
 assimilated to a common indictment, 
 in which a conviction upon one count 
 alone, out of many, is sutficient. 
 
 And because, although enough has 
 been proved in evidence to satisfy us 
 .of the existence of gnilt, yet as evidence 
 on many of the allegations has been 
 contradicted, in some disproved, and 
 in others is so suspicious as to be laid 
 wholly out of the case, we are of opi- 
 nion that ii is inexpedient to proceed 
 fun her in this measure. 
 
 Plymouth, Dynevor,Granibam,Den- 
 hiuh, Clinton, (second reason* 
 only). Gage (second reason), II- 
 chestet. 
 The f(d!owing peers have also pro- 
 tected a^aini^t ihe bill upon general 
 grounds : 
 
 Dissentient, No. III.— William Fro ■ 
 derick, Lausdown, Jersey, Grey, Ply- 
 mouth, Fitzgibbin, Albemarle, Ha- 
 milton and Brandon, Duncan, HiLho- 
 rough, Wentworth (Fiizwilliara), 
 Derhy,Anson, Yarhorough, Sherborne, 
 Cowper, Audley, Kenyon, Carrick, 
 Selsea, Foley, Ardepi, Egremont, Tor- 
 i rins^ton, Suffolk and Berks, L<>ftus 
 I (Ely), Morley^ Granville, Richmond 
 [ and Lennox, Bedford, Fortescne, Dar- 
 ! liugton, Belhaven, Grafton, Breadal- 
 ; bane, Auckland, Dawnay (Downe), 
 I Mendip (Clifden), Leinster, Hawke, 
 I Gosford, Romney, Roseberry, Scott 
 I (Portland), Thanet, Hood, Ashburton, 
 Howard of Effingham, Alvanley, Car- 
 narvon, Dundas, Caledon, Sundridge 
 (Duke of Argyll), Ducie, King, Ros^- 
 lyn, Dacre, Caliherpe, Grantham auU 
 Ellenboroug;h. . .' 
 
DRrBNCE 0¥ THE QDEEW. 
 
 453 
 
 THURSDAY, Xorembei 9. | 
 
 Kir)I<T < r TUR CO^)MlTTEP. { 
 
 The l.arl of Shaftesbury brought up 
 the coniiuittee on the hill. j 
 
 The report being banded to the Lord j 
 Chawcellor, hf proceeded t state to t»»c ; 
 house ihit auienf'uicuts, in th*^ order in \ 
 wtiich they had been made, and as they | 
 no\vstandinihel<)llowinKbill[asamend- | 
 cd by the coinmitteej entitled an act to | 
 deprive hermajesty, Carolne Amelia j 
 rlizabeth, of the title, prerogfatives, ] 
 r Rhts, privileges, and exemptions, j 
 of Qufen Consort of this realm ; and } 
 to dissolve the marriajje between his 
 Majesty and the said Caroline Amelia 
 Jlizabelh. 
 
 •• Whereas, in the year one thousand 
 -eiglit hundred and fourteen, her Ma- 
 jeHty Caroline Amelia Elizabeth, then 
 princess of Wales, and now queen con- 
 sort of this realm, being at Milan, in 
 Jtnly, engag^ed in her service, in a me- 
 nipl situation, one Bartolomeo Ker- 
 pami, a foreigner of low station, who 
 had before served in a similar capacity : 
 and where as, after the said B. Hergami 
 had so entered the service of her royal 
 highness the said princess of \V'ales, a 
 most unbecoming "and degrading inti- 
 macy commenced between her said 
 royal highness and the said L;artolomeo 
 liergami ; and her said royal highness 
 not only advanced the said Kartolomeo 
 Bergami to a high situation in her 
 royal highness's household, and re- 
 ceived into her service many of bis near 
 relations, some of them in inferior and 
 other* in high and cimfidential situa- 
 tions about her r(»yal highness's person, 
 hut bestowed upon him other great and 
 extraordinary marks of favour and dis- 
 tinction, and conferred upon him a 
 pretended order of knighthood, which 
 her royal highness had taken upon her- 
 self to institute, without any just or 
 lawful authority ; and whereas also her 
 »aidroyalhighness, vv hilst the saidHarto. 
 lomeo Bergami was in her service, fur- 
 ther unmindful of her exalted rank and 
 •tation, and of her duty to your ma- 
 jesty, and wholly regardless of her own 
 lionour and character, conducted her- 
 self towards the said Bartolomeo Ber- 
 {Cami, both in public and private, in 
 various places and countries which her 
 royal highnes^s visited» with indeceat 
 and offensive familiarity and freedom, 
 and carried <»n a licentious, disgraceful, 
 and adulterous intercourse with the 
 
 said Hf»rtolomeo Bergami, which con- 
 tinued lor a long period of time, during 
 her royal higbnefts's residence abroad ; 
 by which conduct of her royal high- 
 ness gre;;t scandal and di>bonour have 
 been brought upon your majesty's fa- 
 mily aud this kingdom. Therefore, to 
 manifest our deep sense of such scan- 
 dalous, disgraceful, and vicious conduct 
 on the part of her said majesty, by 
 which she has violated the duty which 
 she owed to your majesty, and has ren- 
 dered herself unworthy of the exalted 
 rank and station of queen consort of 
 this realm ; and to evince our just re- 
 gard for the dignity of the crown, and 
 the honour of this nation, we, your 
 majesty's most dutiful and loyil sub- 
 jects, the lords spiritual and temporal, 
 andcomn;ons,in Parliamentassembled, 
 do humbly entreat your majesty that it 
 may be enacted, and be it enacted by 
 the king's most excellent majesty, by 
 and with the ad\iceand consent of the 
 lords spiritual and temporal, and com- 
 mons, in this present Parliament as- 
 sembled, and by the authority of th« 
 same, that her said majesty, Caroline 
 Amelia Klizabeth, from, and after the 
 pa«;sing of t!)is act, shall oe, and is 
 hereby, deprived of the title of queen, 
 and of all the prerogatives, rights, pri- 
 vileges, and exenjptions appertaining to 
 her as queen consort of this realm ; 
 and that her said majesty shall, from 
 and after the passing of this act, for 
 ever be disabled and rendered incapable 
 of using, exercising, and enjoying, the 
 same, or any of them ; and, moreover, 
 that the marriage between his majesty 
 and the said Caroline Amelia Eliza- 
 beth be, nnd tlie same is hereby, from 
 henceforth for ever, wholly dissolved, 
 annulled, and made void, to all intents, 
 instructions, and purposes whatso- 
 ever." 
 
 When the noble and learned lord 
 came to that part in which tht: word 
 '* the " was omitted in the sentence 
 ** in the various countries in which her 
 royal highness visited," 
 
 Lord ELLENBOROUCJH rose, and 
 said that the word now read, tlie word 
 ** the," was the principal alteration 
 which had been made in the bill. Many 
 noble lords, and a considerable part of 
 those right reverend persons who sat 
 on the bench opposite to him, had voted <: 
 for the second reading of this bill un- 
 der the impression that it was to un- 
 dcri^o considerablt modification in the 
 
bU 
 
 DSreifCE OF tNE QtJEEir* 
 
 •o»mit<ep> patticMlariy ^ith respect 
 to the divorce clause. But their Wd- 
 rtiips had now heard most of the 
 amendments, and they contained no 
 modification, tbe princpal change 
 made in the whole bill beini^ the omis- 
 «iDn of the word to which he had al- 
 luded. All the members of tiie house 
 who had ycted for the second reading, 
 under the belief that an essential modi- 
 Acation was to be made, being now 
 completely disappointed in that expec- 
 tation, would doubtless vote against the 
 WU on the third reading. 
 
 Tlic Earl of LAUDEKDALE wished 
 to say a few words with regard to 
 what bad occurred on leaving out the 
 ^irorce clause. Their lordships had 
 been d stinctly told by a noble lord of 
 ^rcat experience, of the highest poli- 
 tical talents, one of (he most eminent 
 members of ihat house, and a person 
 ibr whom he entertained the greatest 
 jrespact, tUat his reason for voting, with 
 « view to keep in that clause, arose 
 from his wish to stop the measure alto- 
 gether. Now, after such a declaration, 
 hte would ask those noble lords who 
 really objected to the clause, and who 
 wished to remove it from the bill, but 
 Jiad thus been disappointed, whether 
 they could with propriety aid this trick 
 *nd manoeuvre by voting against the 
 Ihird reading ? Was it to be expected 
 that noble lords who had voted for the 
 •econd reading were now to reverse 
 that voie, in order to assist the views 
 of those who, in voting for the divorce 
 elause, had declared that their ob- 
 ject in doing so was to throw out the 
 bill? 
 
 Earl GREY f ose with great surprise, 
 and no inconsiderable indignation at 
 hearing the unjust, unfounded, and 
 calumnious imputation which had been 
 cast upon him. He had hoped that 
 bis noble friend— that that house — 
 knew him too well to render it possible 
 4 Ihat he could be accused of resorting 
 to trick and manoeuvre to gain an ob- 
 ject. Whether such a charg-e came 
 iwe]\ fffofli the quarter in which it was 
 VMdie, kc left it to the house to con- 
 sider. But he must say, that to be 
 •ecmed of tricking and manoeuvring 
 in hie conduct, when he openly avowed 
 ihe Bftotive and the object of that con- 
 duct, appeared to him the most ex- 
 traordinary and unauthorized charge 
 e»«r made in that house. Kow, with 
 ittqimt to ike ifuestiofi of hoe vote, he 
 
 must obiervt that nothing was more 
 common in' parliamentary practice, 
 nothing morejustifiable according to the 
 preceueuis ot the best of furmcr ciiue», 
 and nothing more correct in principle, 
 thau when a person felt a fundamental 
 objection, either in the principle or the 
 details of a measure, ihat he should 
 endeavour to clog it in any stage with 
 conditions calculated to produce its 
 rejection by the house. (Hear, hear^. 
 Bat he had not been driven to this ex- 
 pedient, for, from the beginning, he 
 had objected to the suggestion for 
 omitting tljc clause. 
 
 ITie Earl of LAUDERDALE, after ^ 
 what had passed, thought necessary tf» 
 say a few words. If he were capable 
 on any account of saying what conid 
 by possibility detract from the cha- 
 racter of his noble friend, it would he 
 infinitely more painful to him thau any 
 thing that ever happened to him in the 
 course of his life. He had not said 
 that his noble frieid had been guilty 
 of any unworthy trick or manoeuvre. 
 What his noble friend had done was a 
 parliamentary trick often practised, 
 as had been stated, even in the best of 
 times. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL said he 
 would fairly ask their lordships whe- 
 ther, in any stage of this proceeding, 
 he could be justly accused of holding 
 oat any expectations ? He had merely 
 stated, on the second reading of the 
 bill, that no noble lord ought to feel 
 precluded from voting because of any 
 objection he might have to parts of 
 the preamble, or to the clause of di- 
 vorce, both of which would be open to 
 discussion iu the committee. He had 
 always stated most distinctly that the 
 preamble was, in his own opinion, 
 most distinctly proved, and he could 
 therefore never have held it out as his 
 opinion that any material alteration 
 would eventually take place in it. At 
 the same time he perfectly agreed witli 
 the noble lord opposite (Ellenborough), 
 that if any noble lord had voted for 
 the second reading of the bill, in the 
 expectation that important alterations 
 iu the preamble would be made in the 
 coniinitiee, which were not made, it 
 was per*"cctly open- to him to vote on 
 the third reading, as if he had not 
 voted for the second. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 Lord ELLENBOROUGH said that 
 his observation was not meant to apply 
 to those who had been disposed to sup- 
 
DBFBNCft OP THB QUZEiX. 
 
 455 
 
 port the whule uf the btll> atid who 
 only voted ajc^iinst the divorce clause 
 from ideas of ex[>ediency or of defe- 
 rence to the feeliiijis of others. But 
 he had said, uud he now repeated, 
 that there were others, who had on 
 relie!:ious i^rouuds, voted agaiust the 
 divorce clause (hear). Now, he held 
 it to be impossible for any who had 
 voted against the divorce clause on 
 religious grounds, not to vote against 
 the third reading of the bill. 
 
 After some observations from Lord 
 CALTHORPE, and the Earl of DO- 
 KOUGHMORE, 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR s^id, 
 that the only question before the house 
 was, whether a word of three letters, 
 the word " the," should stand part of 
 the preamble or not? and he did not 
 imagine that much light could have 
 been thrown on that point by the sort 
 of canvass which had been going on— 
 for he could call it nothing else— as to 
 the votes on the third reading of the 
 bill. After what had fallen from the 
 noble earl (Grey) , he thought he should 
 be forgetful of what was due to him- 
 self, to the house, and to the country, 
 if he did not disclaim, in the most 
 pointed manner, having ever stooped 
 to the unworthy practice of attempting 
 to lead the votes of their lordships by 
 any thing like trick or manoeuvre 
 (hear). He had never stated one single 
 word, in the whole course of this long 
 proceeding, respecting the power of 
 their lordships to modify the preamble 
 or enactments of the bill, which he 
 wonld not now repeat. As to the rote 
 of yetterday, he had felt himself bound 
 in honour, after the declaration made 
 by a noble lord opposite (lord Lon«. 
 dale), to pay deference to the religi(»ug 
 prejudices entertained by that noble 
 lord, in common with many others i 
 although, for himself, he thought those 
 prejudices altogether without founda- 
 tion. This opinion he again, as he 
 kad done before, openly avowed. He 
 thought the clause of divorce equally 
 justified in a religious as iu a lejfal 
 sense, and, if the bill passed, that 
 clan<^ ought aho to pass. 
 
 The Duke of HAMILTON rose to 
 more an amendment upon a subject 
 which he had before mentioned. 
 It was to leave out the word* *' licen- 
 •iong, dissrraceful, and adultenag iu- 
 teraourgc." To the words *» adullerovs 
 ieteMonrtcf** be bad the mo»k d««i«led 
 
 objection ; but he would not enter int» 
 a discussion of it now. He wonld re- 
 serve any discussion of the sul jeci till 
 the thir<l reading. He now merely 
 moved that that part be oinittted. 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR put the 
 question, which was negatived without 
 a division. 
 
 Earl FITZWILLIAM said the adul- 
 terous intercourse had, iu his opinion, 
 hy no means been proved; but he 
 called on those noble lords who held 
 an opinion that her majestj was guilty, 
 to limit the period, during which they 
 alleged that she had been engaged iu 
 the criminal intercourse, to a portion 
 of time previous to the year 1817, as 
 no proof whatever had been brought 
 forward of her communicating with 
 the individual named in the bill after 
 that period. To refuse to adopt this 
 principle would be extreme injustice 
 to the unfortunate accused. 
 
 The Earl of CARNARVON said he 
 rose to move an addition to the pre- 
 amble, after the word *' abroad*** 
 of which he had given notice formerly. 
 He moved that, alrer the word 
 *« abroad," should be inserted, *• and 
 subsequently to her return refnssd 
 50,0001. a year of the public money, 
 and the protfered homage of both 
 houses of parliament." 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR put the 
 question, and said the " Not ContentSr* 
 had it. 
 
 Lord KING moved that the eoaclx 
 ments of the bill should ba thus al^ 
 tered,— •** And whereas certain conw 
 missioners, who were appointed to 
 proceed to Milan, together with ootf 
 Vilmacarti, an Italian advocate, 
 have collected a mass of false or ques. 
 tiouable evidence ; and whereas th« 
 same has, during many week«, beao 
 detailed to the lutuse and the public, 
 whereby * great scandal and difihouovr 
 have b*en brought upmi your majesty's 
 fami y and this kingdom:* therefore 
 to manifest our deep sense of such 
 scandalous, disgraceful, and viciuus 
 couduct on the part of the said MHaa 
 commissioners, by which they had 
 ♦ violated the duty which they owed 
 to yoor majesty, and have rendered 
 themselves unworthy of the confidence 
 placed in them *,' and to evince our 
 just regard for the dignity of the 
 crowu, and the honour of this nalioo* 
 Wa, your majesty's mo«t dutiful and 
 iojral tttbleets, the lords iplritval and 
 
45(5 
 
 DEj^ENCE OK THE QVECN. 
 
 temporal, auil conjiimus, io I'ail.anuMit . w}»icli had been given of tlie text h 
 a!««emb!ed, do humbly cuireai yiuir | learned pre ate on a foun 
 iwajeity that it nu'.y be euacied ; aud j ajiplied only to local 
 be it enacted, bv the Kiijjr's 
 
 da 
 
 most ex- 
 cellent Mi.j '^ty, by aud wiih tlie advice 
 and consent of the lords Kpiiiin-il aud 
 temporal, and c ►mmons, in thi-? pre- 
 sent Parliament assemMed, and by tin? 
 authority of the same, thac the persons 
 who hare acted as conunissioiters at 
 Milan, from and after the passing of this 
 act, shall for ever be di.sabled and ren- 
 dered incapable, and are hereby disabled 
 and rendered incapable, of receivin<>- 
 any reward (g-reat laufjhter), or of hold- 
 ing- any place of trnst, profit, or emo- 
 lument, under the crown (loud lauohter). 
 By leaving out the words '• Caroline 
 Amelia Elizabeth," and the other words 
 which refer to her nutjesty, and intro- 
 ducing the words now moved, the bill 
 would still be a bill of pains and per 
 ^altie*, and it would then be directed to 
 the proper object (cheers and laug-hter). 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR read the 
 amendment, amidst much laughter, 
 and said the '* Not Contents" had it. 
 
 Lord KENYON then addressed the 
 house from the gallery, opposite the 
 
 ministerial side. He said, if he cotild 
 by any means have broug-bt himself to 
 consent to the present bill, which he 
 believed to be most odious and unjust, 
 still he could never have assented to the 
 divorce clause. His objections to that 
 clause rested on religious feeliiigs ; they 
 wei-e founded on these words of our 
 Saviour: — *' Whoso pufteth away his 
 wif«, except for fornication, causeth her 
 to commit adultery." — His objection was 
 founded on religious scruples. Any 
 man of plain understanding must see 
 that divorce in the present case was in- 
 consistent with Scripture. He had wit- 
 nessed, with the greatest pain, any dif- 
 ference of opinion on this subject among 
 the right reverend bishops. Nothing- 
 eould ever obtain his consent for re- 
 taining this clause. National expe- 
 diency was not to be put in competition 
 with religious principle. What man, 
 holdings Christian principles, or believing- 
 the Christian faith, could divorce, even 
 for adultery, from a husband who was 
 stated, by the divine Author of Chris- 
 tianity, to have caused adull*>ry ? (Haar, 
 hear.) His lordship proceeded at some 
 length to enforce his opinion that the 
 divorce was plainly opposed to the words 
 lie had quoted, and commented with 
 coBiiidfirablt streiig^th an the explanation 
 
 a 
 that it 
 circumstances, and 
 i to a particular institution of the Mosaic 
 j law. His lordship ondided by moving 
 j that the whole of the words, aft^r the 
 
 [ words " ajiy of them" be omitted 
 
 j namely, " And, njoreover, tliat the mar- 
 riage between his majesiy and the ^Mid 
 Caroline Ameiiu E!i/abtth be, and the 
 same is heieby, from henceforth, fi»r 
 ever, wholly dissolved, anuniled, and 
 made void, to ail intents, consfructions, 
 and purposes whatsoever." This nioti^u 
 was itjiujediately nfgsjlived without a 
 division ; and the house adjourned at 
 twelve o'clock, until ten to-morrow 
 niorninsr. 
 
 FRIDAY, November 10. 
 
 THIRD BEADING OF THB BILL OF PAIRS 
 AND PR\>LTIBS. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL moved the 
 order of the day for the third reading- of 
 the Bill of Divorce and Degradation 
 ag-ainst the queen. 
 
 The Eirl of MORLEY rose to oppose 
 the motion. He said, that he was one 
 of those who concurred entiielj with 
 his majesty's ministers up to the second 
 reading- of this bill. He thought at first, 
 and still, that the course of events, after 
 her majesty's arrival here, rendered 
 this inquiry necessary He also ap- 
 proved of the manner in which it had 
 been conducted ; but the reason he. 
 voted on Monday ag-ainst the second 
 reading, and would now vote against the 
 third reading- was, that he did not think 
 the charge in the preamble fully made 
 out (hear, hear). The bill covered six 
 years of her majesty's conduct, and was 
 it not singular that during that long- 
 space of time, it did not produce proof 
 of any one act of adultery on any spe- 
 cific day. (Hear.) He knew that 
 strong inferences were drawn that it 
 bad at particular times been committed, 
 but he still thought they did not amount 
 to proof. He also thought that the pro- 
 visions of the bill were, if not of a re- 
 volutionary shape, at least of an auti-mo- 
 narchial. The noble lord then said, 
 that before he touched upon any evi- 
 dence, he would remind the house that 
 ihe'iBode of proof which obtained in 
 cases of adultery was now different from 
 that which formerly prevailed. The new 
 doctrine respecting the legitimacy of the 
 childrea of an adulteress, was open to be 
 
DEFENCE OF THE QUEEN. 
 
 457 
 
 rebntted by circumstances, since the 
 unanimous opinion of the juds^es, de- 
 livered before their lordships on the 11th 
 of May, 1«11. 
 
 ^ The noble earl then said he was a de- 
 cided enemy to all ex post facto laws, 
 excppt where the public safety ren- 
 dered stich measures necessary ; and, 
 after some further observations, de- 
 clared himself a decided enemy to this 
 bill. 
 
 Lord S(7MERS spoke at consider- 
 able length in favour of the bill — the 
 preamble to which he contended had 
 been fu'ly established. 
 
 Earl FORTESCUE said that it was 
 impossible for hira to think that the 
 evidence which had been adduced in 
 this case amounted to le^al proof of 
 guilt. It was but too true that per- 
 sons in roval station raiffht be guilty of 
 improprieties, but in his opinion it 
 was far more consistent with wisdom 
 to keep them concealed than to submit 
 them to public observation . He was 
 convinced that much mischief had 
 already been done by this measure — 
 but he hoped that this was not quite 
 irreparable. It was still in the power 
 of the house to do much, by rejecting 
 this bill altogether. 
 
 The Duke of BEDFORD said that, 
 in bis opinion, the measure was one 
 which, to use the emphatic words of 
 another branch of the le^r'ilature, " was 
 derogatory to the honour ofthe crown, 
 and injurious to the best interests of 
 the country." He did not vote on the 
 divorce clause, because he could not 
 conscientiously vote upon it without 
 thinking the queen guilty. It had 
 given him great astonishment to see 
 ministers supporting the omission of 
 the clause, consenting to the castration 
 of their own measure, depriving it of 
 the only feature which gave it the sem- 
 blance of rationality. He did not 
 mean to go in detail into the evidence, 
 but he could not, however, help offer- 
 ing a few remarks on some parts of the 
 proceeding. A noble earl opposite 
 (lord Liverpool) had commented ontha 
 evidence in a manner which had given 
 him great surprise. He had assumed 
 some of the most important facts of 
 the case as proved solely by the testi- 
 mony of that pure and immaculate wit- 
 ness De Mont. He had ventured to 
 say, that she was in one instance sup- 
 ported by Dr. Holland ; but ou the 
 minutes of evidence being referred to, 
 
 58 
 
 no such corroboration appeared. The 
 truth was, every thing that could in 
 any way be turned to the discredit of 
 her majesty, was made use of to elfect 
 the purposes of this bill, without any 
 regard either to their justice or proba- 
 bility. He would ask tlieir lordships, 
 how the character of Queen Elizabeth 
 would have stood ?— where the glory 
 of her reign would have been ? — if she 
 had been infesed, as the Princess of 
 Wales had been, by spies and infor- 
 mers? — His grace concluded by de- 
 claring, that, if called upon, in his ju- 
 dicial character, to give a verdict on 
 the evidence, which had been pro- 
 duced, he must say. Not Guilty, on 
 his honour and conscience ; and, if 
 asked for his opinion as a legislator, 
 " that the bill was as impolitic as it 
 was unjust!" 
 
 The LORD CHANCELLOR still 
 considered, that, if any noble lord was 
 not conscientiously satisfied that there 
 was a clear legal presumption of guilt 
 in this case, it was his duty not to vote 
 for this bill. For his own part, whe- 
 ther he viewed the evidence in favour 
 of the bill — the evidence which had 
 been called for the defence — or the 
 evidence which ought to have been 
 called, and had not been called, he 
 was of opinion that the charge of adul- 
 tery had been clearly established. If 
 this were not his feeling, no earthly 
 consideration should induce him to 
 vote for the third reading of the 
 bill. 
 
 The Bishop of CHESTER said, that 
 thinking the divorce clause in the bill 
 against the precept of the divine law, 
 and contrary to the whole spirit of the 
 civil law, it was impossible for him to 
 vote for the bill with that clause. 
 
 The Duke of GRAFTON said, that 
 upon looking at the whole of the evi- 
 dence, he must pronounce a verdict of 
 " Not Guilty." 
 
 The Marquis of HUNTLEY was sa- 
 tisfied of the guilt of her majesty, and 
 should vote for the third reading. 
 
 The Marquis of DONE(iAL said, 
 that his clear and conscientious vote 
 should he against the bill. 
 
 The Bishop of GLOUCESTRR, from 
 his objection to the divorce clause, 
 should vote against the bill. 
 
 After some observations from Lord 
 ELLENBOROUGH and the Earl of 
 DAUNLEV, amidst loud cries of 
 Question, the house divided. 
 
458 
 
 DEFENCE or THE QtREPT. 
 
 The result of this last divisionon the 
 bill was as follo^x : 
 
 For the third reading 108 
 
 Against it 99 
 
 Majority 9 
 
 We have received the following re- 
 port of what passed during the ex- 
 elusion of strangers • 
 
 HER MAJESTY. 
 
 Lord D ACRE arose amidst vehement 
 eries of "order," and as soon as the 
 peers had taken their seats, he ob- 
 served, that he had been intrusted 
 with a petition from her majesty, 
 praying to be heard by counsel against 
 the passing of the bill (much cheer- 
 insr^. 
 
 The Earl of LIVERPOOL rose im- 
 mediately, and said that he appre- 
 hended such a course would be ren- 
 dered unnecessary by what he was 
 about to state (hear, hear). He should 
 not be ignorant of the state of public 
 feeling with regard to this measure, 
 and it appeared to be the opinion of 
 the house that the bill should be read 
 a third time only by a majority of nine 
 votes (much cheering). Had the third 
 reading been carried by as consider- 
 able a nunibcr of peers as the second, 
 he and his noble colleagues would 
 have felt it their duty to persevere 
 with the bill, and to serd it down to 
 the other branch of the legislature. 
 In the present state of the country, 
 however, and with the division of sen- 
 timent, so nearly balanced, just evinced 
 by their lordships, they had come to 
 the determination not to proceed 
 further with it. It was his intention, 
 accordingly, to move that the question 
 «« that the bill do pass now,*' be al- 
 tered to '* this day six months." (The 
 most vehement cheering took place at 
 this unexpected declaration.) 
 
 Earl GREY rose as soon as the 
 earl of Liverpool had resumed his 
 seat, but the confusion did not subside 
 until after his lordship had been for 
 iome time on his legs. His lordship 
 complained of the whole course mi- 
 nisters had pursued with regard to the 
 bill, which, after the declaration of 
 the noble earl, could scarcely be said 
 to be before the house, but which was 
 still before the country, and would 
 live long iu its raptnory. (hear.) He 
 cbargtd the servants of itae erowa 
 
 with the grossest neglect of duty, in 
 the first instance, in listening only to 
 ex parte evidence, and giving a willing 
 credeuce to the most exaggerated aud 
 unfounded calumnies, (loud cheers.) 
 They had thus for many months 
 agitated the nation — they had pro- 
 duced a general stagnation of public 
 and private bHsiness—and they had 
 given a most favourable opportunity, 
 were it desired, to the enemies of 
 internal peace and tranquillity. They 
 had betrayed their king, insulted their 
 queen, (continued cries of hear from 
 all sides,) and had given a shock to 
 the morals of society, by the promul- 
 gation of the detestable and disgusting 
 evidence, in the hearing of which the 
 house had been so long occupied, 
 (hear.) His lordship also reprobated, 
 in the severest terms, the conduct of 
 the Milan commissioners, who haviog^ 
 beeu appointed, not to investigate 
 truth, but to obtain testimony of guilt, 
 had found in this country but too 
 great an inclination to put faith in all 
 the stories their agents and witnesses 
 might invent against the honour and 
 reputation of the Queen of Great Bri- 
 tain. The result had been that, after 
 inquiries, secret and open — after the 
 grossest calumnies and the foulest 
 libels had been made the subject of 
 detail and debate for fifty days — after 
 all the injury that it was possible to 
 do the queen had been accomplished, 
 the bill was abandoned, not without 
 reason, but assuredly without apology. 
 His lordship concluded by assuriug 
 the noble lords on the other side, that 
 the people of Great Britain would not 
 be satisfied with the mere withdrawing 
 of the measure, but would demand « 
 strict inquiry into its foundation and 
 origin, (great cheering from one side of 
 the house.) 
 
 Lord ERSKINE followed earl Grey, 
 and expressed the delight he felt that^ 
 after all that had been threatened 
 and performed, he had yet at length 
 lived to see justice — tardy and re- 
 luctant justice — done to the queen. It 
 was the victory of right and innocence 
 over wrouic and malignity. He had 
 spent much of his life in courts of 
 justice, and he had often witnessed 
 the triumph of the law, but never io 
 gloriously as on the present occasion 
 —the triumph of that law of which 
 Hooker, iu his ** Ecclesiastical Pu- 
 lity," said, ** Of law there cao be urn 
 
BEFENCB OP THE QVEBN 
 
 459 
 
 less aeknowledired than that her seal 
 is the bosom of God, her voice the 
 harmony of the world. All things in 
 heaven and on earth do her homage; 
 the very least as feeling her care, 
 aod the greatest, as not exempted 
 from her power. Both aogeh and 
 men, and creatures of what condition 
 soever, though each in different sort 
 and manner, yet all, with uniform 
 consent, admiring her as the mother 
 of their peace and joy." (Hear, 
 hear.) 
 
 The Duke of MONTROSE took 
 the opportunity of itating, that his 
 conviction of the criminality of her 
 majesty was unalteNd, and that, for 
 
 one, he should never look up to her as 
 his queen. 
 
 The question was then put from 
 the woolsack, on tl»f>. n>otion of the 
 earl of Liverpool, that the question 
 « that this bill do pass be put oq 
 *' this day sir months. h was clir- 
 ried nemiHe cotUrudicente, and almost 
 by acclamation. 
 
 Order having been once more re- 
 established, the Ear! of LIVERPOOL 
 moved that the house should ad- 
 journ until the tweuty-third of No- 
 vember, the day on which the com- 
 mons meet. It was also carried, 
 and their lordships immediately sepa- 
 rated. 
 
 «ND or THK riUAL 
 

 •f tfKffi 
 
 
.J- 
 
':t 
 
 This booU U due on *^ ^^^^^"i^^^r 
 ;?on the date .o J'h^* 642.J405 j„^ aue. 
 
 
 <,^?iiAor.?^-- 
 
 r^neral Library , 
 
vjX4rr., 
 
 i^ 
 
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