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 UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA 
 AT LOS ANGELES
 
 SUBSTANCE OF THE SPEECH 
 
 OF 
 
 ON 
 
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 THE 
 
 SUBSTANCE OF THE SPEECH 
 
 OF 
 
 WILLIAM HARRISON, ESQ. 
 
 BEFORE 
 
 THE SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF 
 COMMONS, 
 
 ON 
 
 Cast 3 nWa4mtlt Dipping, 
 
 ON MONDAY, APRIL 18, 1814. 
 
 SIR ROBERT PEEL, BART. IN THE CHAIR. 
 
 LONDON: 
 
 PRINTED BY T. DAVISON, LOMBARD-STREET, WHITEFRIARS, 
 AND SOLD BY J. M. RICHARDSON, CORNHILL. 
 
 1814.
 
 THE 
 
 SUBSTANCE OF THE SPEECH 
 
 OF 
 
 WILLIAM HARRISON, ESQ. 
 
 BEFORE 
 
 The Select Committee of the House of Commons, 
 
 ON 
 
 EAST INDIA BUILT SHIPPING, 
 
 ON MONDAY, APRIL 18, 1814. 
 
 (SIR ROBERT PEEL, BAET. IN THE CHAIR.) 
 
 Mr. Harrison appeared as Counsellor the English Ship-builders. 
 
 I HAVE endeavoured to avail myself of the time which has 
 been given by the committee to compress this case as much as 
 possible, and with the assistance of the learned gentleman with 
 me, Mr. Adolphus, and the solicitor, whose general intelligence 
 and particular knowledge upon this subject is so well known, I 
 shall be able to bring this question within a much narrower com- 
 pass than has generally been conceived; at the same time, the 
 committee must be aware, that both with reference to the private 
 interests which I represent, and also the public interest, and with 
 reference to the consequences which, I think, I shall establish 
 must follow from this bill passing into a law, it is by much the 
 most important question which has, within my recollection, been 
 brought before parliament. I have no hesitation in saying, that 
 I think it of more importance than the question which continued 
 so long under discussion in this room, last year that it involves 
 larger national interests, and greater political and general conse- 
 quences, and questions much more deeply connected with the 
 Safety and prosperity of the country in every respect than the 
 question last year, as to the monopoly of the East India trade. 
 Sir, it is incumbent on rae to shew, that the gentlemen I repre- 
 
 B
 
 2 
 
 Sent are affected, deeply affected, by tins bill ; that they are in a 
 condition to present themselves before you as petitioners, from 
 the nature of their situation, and the effect this bill will produce 
 upon their interests ; that they have claims on the public atten- 
 tion, from the assistance they have afforded to the national esta- 
 blishments ; that nothing has occurred in the management of their 
 trade, or in the manner of their giving assistance to the public, to 
 exclude them from the benefit of these claims; and that there is no 
 general policy which justifies this interference with their business. 
 I will also shew, that if it is a question of comparison between 
 those interested in the building of ships here, and those inte- 
 rested in the building of ships in India, there is no doubt that 
 those who are interested in building ships in this country have 
 superior claims to protection ; that no danger can arise from per- 
 mitting them to carry it on as they have done hitherto ; but, on the 
 contrary, public necessity, public interest, the state of our navy, 
 the future ship-building throughout the kingdom, and all thoso 
 circumstances which call for your attention, imperatively demand 
 that if it is necessary that the present laws should be altered, they 
 should be altered to give them additional protection ; that this 
 is the line which parliament must take, atid that instead of 
 enacting any thing to prevent the ship-builders in this country 
 from carrying on their trade to the same extent as hitherto, it is 
 absolutely necessary that the navigation acts should be so altered 
 as to exclude from the trade between India and Great Britain 
 any ships built in India as British registered ships, I state it 
 broadly, largely, and generally; because I am satisfied, in the 
 course of my address, and in the course of the evidence I shall 
 offer, T shall establish to demonstration, and beyond contradiction 
 too, that they are entitled, not on their own account only as indi- 
 viduals for individuals' interests must always give way to public 
 policy but on grounds of public policy itst-lf, which imperiously 
 demands, that the India shipping should be excluded, that the 
 building ships there must be confined to the local trade of that 
 country, and must not be allowed to interfere with the ship- 
 builders here. 
 
 Sir, in order to make out this case, I must proceed to shew 
 what is the nature of the establishments for ship-building in the 
 river Thames, upon what particular trade it is they have hitherto 
 maintained those establishments, and kept them up to their pre- 
 sent extent, how they have been interfered with by ships being 
 permitted to come from India, what effects must be produced if 
 this bill passes into a law; and, in order to shew the consequences 
 that will arise, I must also exhibit to the committee the situation 
 in which these gentlemen have stood in affording the assistance 
 they have to the navy of Great Britain in time of war, and the 
 importance they are of to the very existence of the navy ill time of 
 peace,which will prove that they cannot be interfered with without 
 danger. If it is said it is necessary for the purposes of the navy that
 
 ship-building should be suffered in India for the saving of timber 
 here, that is not justified by the fact, or by policy : it is not true, 
 as it is supposed, that there is a scarcity of timber; and the policy, 
 if the fact did exist, is against permitting ships to be built in that 
 country, for that would end in the destruction of the timber, which 
 is the foundation of your future ship-building. I shall contrast 
 the situation ]eg;illy of the gentlemen interested in ship-building 
 in India, with those interested in ship-building here, and shall 
 slate practically their situation, so as to shew that policy demands, 
 if it proves to be, as it will, a question between the individuals 
 I say policy makes it necessary, that those who were in possession 
 of it here should be protected in the enjoyment of it, and that it 
 should not be allowed to pass to another country. 
 
 Thus I have stated the line in which I mean to argue the 
 grounds I generally take and if I allude to topics of national 
 law or policy, or any subjects which may at first appear wide of 
 the points immediately under consideration, I hope the committee 
 will give me credit for their being necessary to be touched 
 upon to arrive at the conclusion I wish, and which it is my duty 
 to bring the committee to, namely, the necessity of protect- 
 ing my clients. In doing this 1 shall avoid particular details; 
 and having taken great pains to endeavour to compress this sub- 
 ject into as narrow a compass as the nature of it admits, I shall 
 not detain the committee at any great length. I am not in the 
 habit of doing so generally, nor shall I now, though its import- 
 ance would justify it. I shall treat it on those broad grounds 
 which 1 have stated, and which will enable me to compress it 
 within the shortest space of time it is possible such a subject 
 should occupy. 
 
 Now, sir, I shall proceed to the first point, the nature of the 
 establishments of these gentlemen, the ship-builders on the river 
 Thames. It will appear from the papers what the number of 
 ships built in the river Thames, for the service of the India 
 company for carrying on the trade with India, has been. The 
 committee will also find " an abstract of some preceding accounts 
 of the ships built in the river Thames from 179 5 to 1813, both 
 inclusive, for the East India company's service, and for the mer- 
 chants' service, distinguishing each." 
 
 Before I comment on those papers/I should just generally state 
 that the business, if I may so call it, of ship-building in the river 
 Thames has been principally supported by the India trade; that 
 though the establishments of ship-building in the river Thames 
 build for other purposes, yet those who have been concerned in 
 building the great vessels employed in the India trade, and those 
 applied to from time to time by the government, to assist in keep- f 
 ing up the navy of Great Britain, have relied on the building of 
 ships for the East India trade ; and they contend, notwithstand- 
 ing the alteration which has taken place with respect to the trade 
 in India, that as that trade must necessarily employ ships of a
 
 considerable size, which is obvious from the nature of the trade, 
 and the regulations, of the act of last year, which requires that 
 the trade shall be carried on in ships of not less than 350 tons, 
 that no alteration in the nature of the trade will deprive them of 
 the advantage they have hitherto possessed of building the larger 
 vessels concerned in it : therefore, if they have depended upon it 
 hitherto for their support, they have a right to look to it hereafter. 
 That they have depended upon it hitherto, will appear by the 
 documents, namely, that in the interval between 1795 and 1804, 
 the average building per annum, during those ten years, was seven 
 ships in the year for the East India Company's service, and I will 
 shew that this employment was of a description to enable them to 
 keep up their establishments, even under the disadvantage of 
 the India company having refused to take ships built on specu- 
 lation ; which makes a very material difference in keeping up the 
 establishments. It will appear from one of the papers from the 
 outports, that a great many ships are building on speculation 
 there ; and it is obvious, that where they can build those ships, 
 they can be more economical than where they are to build on 
 contract: on the same principle, that a great builder, for the pur- 
 pose of being ready at all times to undertake repairs, will build 
 a house on speculation, by which he keeps his workmen em- 
 ployed ; and it is a benefit to him, if, during the period of his so 
 employing his men, he produces enough to keep them iu pay 
 and keep up his establishment: he is, as far as his establishment 
 is concerned, remunerated, if he brings himself back. Every 
 thing he may make beyond the cost he may take as profit; 
 feut^t is an advantage to him if he makes no profit at all. But 
 under the disadvantage of not being allowed to build ships on spe- 
 eulation, because the East India company would not take them 
 (though built under the inspection of their surveyors), but in- 
 sisted on ships being laid down after contract, even then, and 
 under that disadvantage, they carried on the business of ship- 
 building in the river Thames in such a way as to keep some thou- 
 sand men in constant employ, in their various occupations, iu 
 building and repairing such ships. 
 
 The committee will observe, that from 1805 to 1814, the last ten 
 years, the average has been two ships a-year; and, for the purpose 
 of completing the observations I wish to make on this document, 
 I would now beg leave to refer the committee to another docu- 
 mentj by which the committee will see that there is one solitary 
 vessel, and that a frigate, at this moment building in the yards of 
 the river Thames: that therefore the average of the ten first years 
 was seveu large ships; that the average for the last ten years was 
 two ships; and that at this moment there is but one, and that a 
 frigate, which has no connexion with this trade, nor with the ob- 
 servations I am making as to the case now before the commit- 
 tee. I think, I am justified in stating, when I have proved these 
 documents, that I shall shew to the committee, that the ship-
 
 budding establishments on the river Thames have been sup- 
 ported and maintained by the great trade carried on in the large 
 vessels between this country and India ; that as the trade is to be 
 carried on in those large vessels in future, they have a right to 
 look to that trade for employment; and that the reduction of 
 their trade has already produced the effect of reducing their 
 men from between three and four thousand, which was the num- 
 ber they formerly employed, to about two hundred and fifty men 
 now in employment in the river Thames : on that I shall have 
 to comment when I come to further parts of the case. 
 
 Now, sir, it may be said, that this proof amounts to nothing, if 
 their trade has fallen off from other causes than the introduction 
 of ships from India. 1 admit it ; and therefore I shall go into the 
 circumstances of their establishments. In one of the papers there 
 is a passage to which I beg the attention of the honourable mem- 
 bers: they will find that ninety-eight ships built in nineteen years in 
 the river Thames for the East India company's service, averaged 
 100/ tons each, and five hundred and forty-two ships, vessels 
 and river-craft, built there in the like period, not for the East 
 India company's service, averaged 76 tons each ; that the yes- s 
 sels built in the port of London for the East India company, from 
 1795 to 1804, were seventy-seven ships, making 76,127 tons; 
 from ) 805 to 1814, twenty-one ships, making 22,500 tons, mak- 
 ing the decrease of building of East-Indiamen in the Thames 
 since 1804, fifty -six ships, and 53,557 tons Now, how is the de- 
 crease supplied? The committee will find, in one of the 
 papers, " an account of the number of ships built in India, 
 and admitted to registry in London, from 1704 to 1813, and 
 of some others admitted to entry, but not registered." The first 
 account is of ships admitted to registry, seventy-six, the tonnage 
 47,475; the second account is of ships admitted to entry, and not 
 registered, eight, and the tonnage 9003 : the total is 84- ships, 
 6,478 tons." The result is, that in proportion as the build- 
 ing has fallen off in the river Thames, it has been supplied directly 
 by the tonnage of vessels brought from India, which have carried 
 on the trade from India to this country ; and I deduce from that 
 an argument, that all which has been taken from us has fallen 
 into the hands of the builders on the other side of the water, that 
 it has been an actual transfer of the ship-building to that extent 
 from this country to India ; and I shall prove, in the course of the 
 observations I shall have to make, and the evidence I shall after- 
 wards bring, that this bill passing into a law to make it legal for 
 the large vessels built in Asia to carry on the Indian trade will be 
 attended with the annihilation of every one of these establish- 
 ments, and transfer to that country all the ship-building, and end 
 in the ruin of every one of the establishments of the gentlemen 
 who are one set of the petitioners, namely, the ship-builders in 
 the river Thames. 
 
 - Now, sir, it will be necessary for me, after having stated what 
 is the nature of their establishments, and how they have been
 
 6 
 
 principally employed hitherto, by what supported, and in what way 
 they turn- fallen oft' within a certain number of years, to advert to 
 the situation in which they have stood, nationally speaking, in or- 
 der to shew, when I have laid a foundation, by stating their indivi- 
 dual case in point of loss, the claims they have on the national 
 protection, and the importance they .are of with respect to the 
 existence of the navy. Whether it is or not a judicious policy to 
 build men of war in the merchant yards, has been a subject of 
 great discussion ; and I have no doubt honorable members must 
 recollect a very distinguished speech made by a noble lord, 
 formerly at the head of the Admiralty, upon that subject, (and 
 no one was considered as better understanding the nature of the 
 great duties of his situation,) I mean Lord Melville; however 
 persons might differ upon other points as to that noble lord, there 
 is, 1 believe, an universal concurrence of opinion with reference to 
 his knowledge upon the subject of the department then under 
 his cure, and the use and benefit he was of to the country at large, 
 in his care and protection of it, and of the seamen of this country. 
 In that speech there was a most able detail of the absolute neces- 
 sity which might arise from time to time, and on various occasions, 
 of resorting to the merchant yards to assist in building and re- 
 pairing ships which would be. required on all great pressures, 
 when the country was called upon for exertion, at various periods 
 of war. It would be improper in tne, on a subject of such gene- 
 ral discussion, to go into any details stated in that rpeeeh; I have 
 made those general observations upon it for the purpose of assum- 
 ing that occasions have arisen, and will an.se, in which it has been 
 and will be absolutely necessary to the existence of the country as 
 a naval power, that there should be establishments of a great 
 description with respect to the nature of the vessels they are ca- 
 pable of building, the size of their establishments, and number of 
 men employed, ready to be called on by the public to assist in a 
 case of sudden emergency- to put the navy into such a condition 
 as to meet the exigencies of the times. It was proved to be ne- 
 cessary then, and it may be necessary hereafter. 
 
 Upon this subject, both with reference to the situation in which 
 the gentlemen 1 represent are as to the building large vessels for 
 the East India company's service, and with reference to the assist- 
 ance they have afforded to government in the establishing the im- 
 mense navy we have from time to time employed, some prejudices, 
 unjust prejudices certainly, have arisen as to their conduct : it has 
 been stated broadly and largely, in many instances, that, instead 
 of affording assistance, they have only burthened the country 
 with expense ; that ships have been built by them only to tumble 
 to pieces ; that they have been put into dock before they have 
 sailed from one side of the kingdom to the other ; that by the 
 ships they have built for the use of the navy being badly con- 
 structed, they have been productive only of expense to the pub- 
 lic, and therefore have no claims on the public gratitude or pro- 
 tection, on any ground of that description. I will shew to the
 
 committee that this is not the case ; and, if it is necessary, we 
 will shew that all the complaints which have been made on the 
 subject of ship-building of late years, with respect to particular 
 vessels having failed, apply to the full extent, and equally under 
 similar circumstances, to the navy board or his majesty's yards; 
 and in neither instance do I admit it is a fair foundation of any 
 improper remarks b. j ing made on the persons who have the con- 
 duct of the naval yards or private yards, where they are built, 
 because I can shew that some of the failures have taken place 
 from causes having no connexion with the improper construc- 
 tion of the vessels so built. I will shew to the committee, 
 by distinct and positive evidence, that from the manner and 
 course of employment of those yards, it is impossible to ascribe 
 the fault to the private builders employed : to build the men of 
 war, they come under specific contracts as to the way in which 
 they are to be built. The time a vessel is to stand to season is at 
 the discretion of the navy board, the person contracting is bound 
 to obey their order in that respect. However important it may 
 be to him to disengage his slip, that he may build another vessel 
 in its place, he is bound to keep her as long as the officers of go- 
 vernment in their discretion think fit to direct. With respect to 
 the timbers, how she may be constructed, the time of her putting 
 up, and all other circumstances, as to seasoning, are conditioned 
 for at the time of the contract, in the way the navy-board think 
 necessary for the purpose : the navy-board may keep a vessel two 
 years, instead of six months, to season, if they think it necessary. 
 The vessel, while building, is superintended by a surveyor ap- 
 pointed by the navy board for that purpose ; he is present at the 
 whole operation : the orders of the private builders are, that his 
 directions are to be attended to immediately, he is, in fact, the effi- 
 cient builder; the persons belonging to the yards performing only 
 the modelling and putting together under the directions of the 
 navy board. The plan of the navy board is implicitly followed, 
 and. that under the superintendance of the person appointed by 
 them. I think, therefore, under these circumstances, if any ves- 
 sel has been built under the superintendance of that person, he 
 conceiving that six months' seasoning or four months will be suffi- 
 cient, if a vessel under these circumstances has been launched 
 sooner than she ought to be, or would have been by the builders 
 themselves, in their own discretion, that it would be unfair to 
 impute to them as a fault that a vessel did not last the time it 
 may be said she ought. The same accidents have happened in 
 the public yards ; but I do not impute misconduct to the persons 
 concerned in those establishments, because a circumstance of this 
 kind happened, any more than 1 should say, that because the 
 dry rot got into a house, therefore the builder ought not to be em- 
 ployed again : such things will occur in the management of great 
 operations of this description. 
 
 Sir, it has also been said that the gentlemen for whom I appear 
 lose part of their trade because they carry it onjso expensively;
 
 8 
 
 that they charge so exorbitantly, that they have lost their trade 
 by their own fault; that the competition against them has been 
 produced by their compelling those who would otherwise be glad 
 to employ them, to look out elsewhere ; and that they are sufferers 
 from not having conducted their business properly ; that they have 
 driven persons to other builders, and therefore they are not inti- 
 tled to appear as petitioners to parliament for protection. Under 
 the circumstances I have stated, I will endeavour to shew that this 
 assertion is unfounded, and that what is called the difference of 
 building at the outports and in the Thames, is not such as is sup/- 
 posed. I will prove that, to the present moment, the gentlemen 
 who have the establishments on the river Thames have sustained 
 their character for superiority ; and though it may be true, that, 
 with respect to some things, they do charge more than persons at 
 the outports, they charge it in the same way as every individual 
 engaged in manufacture does, because they have maintained the 
 character of doing their work better, and putting in better mate- 
 rials, and turning out articles of a superior description ; and that 
 the addition to the expense is one that is compensated for by the 
 superiority of the work performed ; but with respect to the build- 
 ing of vessels, there is a difference which is imaginary, with refer- 
 ence to the tonnage of vessels of this description. The measure- 
 ment of the tonnage is made in a particular way : it is produced 
 by taking an assumed length of keel from her extreme length and 
 her keel, and not the actual keel, then multiplying the keel by 
 the breadth of the vessel, and the product by half the breadth, 
 and then dividing by 94, and from these data calcnlating the ton* 
 nage of the vessel, the effect of which is, that a vessel built in the 
 outports with a greater breadth of beam, in proportion to depth, 
 is said to measure 500 tons, and carries 500; but in the Thames 
 they have been required to build upon a different construction, 
 and the result is, that a vessel built on the Thames which is 
 measured 500 tons, will often carry 55O, and it is well known 
 that the Indiamen of 120Otons burthen, often come home with 
 upwards of 1400 tons of cargo. Then, if the vessel is contracted 
 for upon the mere measurement of the tonnage, it is not fair to 
 say a ship built on a construction to carry a larger tonnage is so 
 much dearer when she is a more burthensome vessel. 
 
 Sir, there i's another peculiar circumstance which I shall prove, 
 in order to shew the character ships built in the Thames have 
 maintained. Some of the committee know that there is a regular 
 account kept at Lloyd's coffee-house of all the trading vessels in 
 the kingdom, with a view to enable persons called upon to under- 
 take insurances, to ascertain the nature and character of the ves- 
 sels they are required to insure ; and the register is kept by letters 
 and by numbers; and A 1. is the highest class of registry into 
 which all vessels built on th Thames go, and into which new ves- 
 sels built in the outports are put ; but I will shew that so far from 
 the vessels built in the river Thames being inferior to other vessels, 
 they maintain their rank of A 1, and afterwards in the succeeding 
 classes, longer than any other vessels. Their durability, therefore,
 
 is established by shewing that, under the survey of persons em- 
 ployed by the underwriters at Lloyd's, competent to judge, (and 
 considering- the money at stake, the gentlemen at Lloyd's take 
 care that this survey is conducted in a manner to insure a correct 
 account), the durability of the vessels built in the river Thames 
 is proved, by shewing how long they stand in the highest classes 
 in Lloyd's book, as compared with other vessels: if there are any 
 others built, under accurate inspection at the outports, they are 
 exceptions, for it will be proved, that the vessels built in the river 
 Thames remain longer in the class A J, and keep their station in 
 the higher classes, in proportion to their length of service, longer 
 than others. 
 
 Now, if the committee will take the fact I have mentioned as 
 to tonnage, and the fact I now state, with reference to their dura- 
 bility, and consider all these circumstances together, they must be 
 satisfied, that the imputation attempted to be cast on the builders 
 on the Thames is unfounded ; that it cannot be said they carry 
 on their trade in a way to lose it; and that the losses have ori- 
 ginated in themselves, and not in consequence of the causes 
 which, I say, will end in their destruction. We will shew, not 
 only with respect to their situation for the purposes of insurance, 
 that they are better, but that they sell for more when put up to 
 be sold; that a vessel built in the Thames of a certain num- 
 ber of years, compared with another of the same age, fetches 
 a larger sum ; and when it is known that the persons who are to 
 buy, and the persons who are to employ and to use them, are led 
 by no circumstances but those of interest, the facts which I now 
 state are conclusive, to prove that the ship-builders of the Thames 
 have not been the authors of their own misfortune. I shall there- 
 fore deduce from these circumstances, that the falling off of their 
 business, and the reduction of the number of men, the loss of 
 building from seven ships in a year down to not one, has originated 
 from the India built ships which have been allowed to come to 
 this country from Asia ; and that the permanent establishment of 
 those ships in the Indian trade must end in the annihilation of the 
 business of ship-building in the Thames. 
 
 Now, sir, having stated these general circumstances, I am per- 
 fectly ready to admit, that whatever may be the situation of these 
 gentlemen with respect to the size of their establishments, which 
 are very great, as honorable members, know, comprising immense 
 capital, whatever may be the weight of that private interest, or 
 whatever claims they may have, yet, if any grounds of public 
 policy required a different arrangement with respect to arv part 
 of the navigation laws, they must incur the hazard and endure the 
 sacrifice; and if a time was to come when it might be said that 
 the interest of trade required that it should be carried on as cheap 
 as possible, and that there should be no place where a person might 
 not buy his ship, because the commodities would be lowered if
 
 10 
 
 that wa to be permitted, and therefore you might go to Russia 
 or America to buy vessels, I agree that the ship-builders in the 
 river Thames, or any where else, would have no case, because, if 
 that were made out, it would be impossible for private indi- 
 viduals to say, we have hitherto carried it on in this country, and 
 it must not go elsewhere ; it is a private interest, and may be 
 sacrificed; and it is only then for consideration, whether it is a 
 case for compensation or not. Is the bill founded on any such 
 principles ? certainly not ; because if it was founded on the prin- 
 ciples of enabling persons to trade cheaper, why not give the 
 same privileges to the West India planters ? why say the West 
 India planter must carry on his trade in a vessel that is Bri- 
 tish-built, and not in any other vessel he can get cheaper, 
 and navigate cheaper, and freight cheaper ? I am now. endea- 
 vouring to sweep away and get rid of any general topics which 
 may be said to apply to the question, and to shew that no general 
 policy exists to justify the supposition that my clients ought to 
 make the sacrifice they will be called upon to make if this bill be 
 suffered to pass into a law. It cannot be founded on any such prin- 
 ciple as that it is necessary to give advantages to the East Indian 
 traders, to enable them to bring their commodities over cheaper than 
 other persons; and it is quite impossible to say that the bill isfound- 
 ed on any large system of policy connected with the navigation 
 laws, which could call on parliament to interfere with the private 
 ship-building establishments here. Is it on any other public 
 policy ? This will lead me to the next point, which has been the 
 subject of elaborate investigation, both public and private, that is, 
 the state of the timber in this country ; and it is said it is neces- 
 sary for the purpose of saving the oak timber to keep up the navy, 
 that you should resort to teak and other wood, and have ships 
 built abroad in order to destroy the competition for timber of a 
 large size, and produce a saving of oak to ensure a reservation of 
 a quantity of it for the navy hereafter. Now, sir, how stands this 
 question ? if it is put on the ground that it is necessary to save 
 timber for the navy, it follows as a necessary consequence, that it 
 must be admitted that the effect of the bill will be to carry the 
 building of large ships to India, because otherwise it will not save 
 timber; and therefore if saving of timber is one of the grounds upon 
 which the bill is to be supported, the bill must be admitted to be 
 productive of the consequence of transferring the business of ship- 
 building, becauseotherwiseitwillfail of producing the result sought 
 for, of saving the timber of this country. I will leave my learned 
 friends to get rid of this dilemma in the best way they can. But 
 if timber comes into discussion at all, I believe 1 shall be in a con- 
 dition to prove that it is not true that there is the scarcity of tim- 
 ber supposed : that there is not the difficulty of getting it which is 
 imagined. I will shew that the builders in the private yards have 
 never had any difficulty in procuring it; and that uo real diffi-
 
 11 
 
 culty has existed for the supply of the navy ; and at this moment it 
 is understood a gentleman has either offered, or undertaken to sup- 
 ply the navy with all the timber the navy board may want for seven 
 years, at a lower price than has been paid for some years past. 
 If I prove this fact from the gentleman himself, though I am not 
 quite sure that I am at liberty to mention his name, I shall contend 
 that I give evidence conclusive of the sufficiency of the supply: 
 that gentleman might say it was difficult to get the timber, or that 
 he shall make no profit, or I have no doubt 1 shall get the timber, 
 but 1 wish to decline stating the profit, or I think it is a hazardous 
 thing, and my profit is small ; yet 1 am entitled to contend from 
 the fact, that this gentleman, who has a perfect knowledge of 
 these subjects 
 
 Mr. (a member). Of what country is that timber ? 
 
 Mr. Harrison. 1 understand the offer to be general, to supply 
 the country with all the oak timber wanted for seven years to 
 come for the navy ; it must be supposed to be part of the contract 
 that the timber is fit to h* used. 
 
 Mr. Is it to be British oak ? 
 
 Mr. Harrison. Clearly, sir. I thought the honorable member 
 alluded to difference of counties, because there is an actual or 
 supposed difference in the value of timber grown in the north and 
 south of England it is clearly British ; the contract is for the 
 supply of all the British oak required for the use of the navy ; arid 
 I take that fact as conclusive, that, in the minds of those who are 
 best informed upon the subject, there is no difficulty in the private 
 yards on the subject; and in consequence of the economy prac- 
 tised in the use of timber, there is less danger now than there ever 
 has been of a failure of oak timber. 
 
 Mr. . Did you say it was at a less price ? 
 
 Mr. Harrison. At a less price than the price within the last 
 year or two. I do not. know how much less. 
 Mr. - You mean to prove this ? 
 
 Mr. Harrison. We shall apply for the copy of the contract, 
 sir. Of late years a very great saving has arisen in the use of oak, 
 more than at any other period ; some of the great works which 
 used to come in competition with the navy for timber, are now 
 otherwise supplied. The beam of a steam engine, which would 
 take a tree worth ,100, is now made of cast iron. In the same way r , 
 in a vast variety of instances, where there was a competition for 
 the largest sort of oak ; the competition is withdrawn by the ap- 
 plication of cast iron. In ships, the knees are constructed of a 
 different description many of them iron instead of wood ; and for 
 Other parts have been found equally useful, and they are much better 
 where they can be applied properly, as they take less room, and arc 
 less expensive, because formerly the knees were cut out of an oak 
 tree with large crooked limbs, and the whole tree was cut to pieces 
 for the purpose. In a variety of ways of this sort, which I need
 
 12 
 
 not enumernte to the committee, a very considerable saving ha* 
 taken place in the use of timber without the least detriment to 
 the construction of the ship. It has also been found from the 
 building of fir frigates, that where it was formerly thought abso- 
 lutely necessary to have crooked timber, straight timber may be 
 applied a great saving has arisen in that respect; all these cir- 
 cumstances, with the general saving in private use, give rise to a 
 conviction in the minds of those who have investigated the subject, 
 that there is less danger than ever of the failure of timber for the 
 building of large vessels. 
 
 But, sir, suppose it was made out distinctly that there was a 
 danger of oak timber failing for naval supply, and I will admit the 
 fact to be so, for raising the question, that it was proved, and I am 
 wrong in my proposition that there is no such danger of failure of 
 supply, I then come to what is the effect of this bill because 
 it is still more important in discussing such a measure which is 
 to transfer the building of large ships from this country to India, 
 in order to save timber to shew what will be the effect of taking 
 away the building of all the large vessels from this country, and 
 transferring it to India on the future growth of timber, and on its 
 being suffered to grow to proper size why I say the necessary 
 effect and consequence is, the destruction of the growth of timber 
 itself; that if you take away all future market, and all future 
 competition for it, there is no other mode of securing the timber 
 for public use, but by marking the trees, and telling the owner 
 he must not cut them down; that you mark the timber for the 
 public use, to prevent his applying it to any of the purposes of an 
 inferior description. If you tell him he shall not have a market 
 by the building of large ships for the merchants' service, he will not 
 let his trees stand till they come to a proper growth, because it will 
 be difficult to convince any man interested on this subject, thatthe 
 building of ships can ever come back again. The consequence of 
 this law inevitably must be, that the building of large ships will 
 be withdrawn from England, and the establishments of these 
 large yards must be transferred to the Ganges, Bombay, and other 
 parts of India. No one will be persuaded it will ever get back 
 again to this country, it is impossible, because the advantages 
 which will be found in India for ship-buildiny, will give a decided 
 preference to that country over the mother country. The com- 
 petition will be done away, and no man will then suffer timber to 
 stand on his estate, whatever may be its age, if he does not think 
 he is improving his property, and laying up a supply for the future 
 heir of his family. In Scotland thousands of acres have been 
 covered with timber of a large description ; the larch particularly, 
 which is the subject now of great cultivation for more efficient and 
 general use. I know from information I have received from per- 
 sons of high consideration, that this has not been done but at an 
 expense of thousands and thousands of pounds in one case not
 
 IS 
 
 less than 25,000 to establish woods not woods within the view 
 of a house planted as ornament, (for in a wealthy country there 
 will always be planting to a gieat extent of that description); 
 but woods planted on the supposition that posterity will derive 
 from them a great advantage. Will such an individual lay 
 out his money in covering his land with timber, if he believes the 
 trade will be destroyed ? Certainly not. It is quite clear, no man 
 will suffer woods to stand except in situations of ornament. I 
 speak of the general planting of timber to remain till it arrives at 
 maturity, under the idea that it will then be productive of wealth 
 to a family. It is obvious that if the competition is taken away, 
 it will be immediately used, because it will not increase in value 
 by being suffered to grow so as to make it a justifiable policy to 
 permit it to occupy the ground. [ say, the necessary effect of nar- 
 rowing the iiiarket for timber of that description, will produce a 
 failure of supply, instead of producing an increase or a saving ; 
 and, 1 contend, there is no sort of provision, no sort of arrange- 
 ment that ought not to be first thought of, investigated, und 
 resorted to, and first tried, to see the nature and effect of it, before 
 you take away the market for oak timber in the way, this bill will, 
 by encouraging the building of ships in India for the trade from 
 that country. It ought not to be allowed to any man to cut 
 down timber fit for naval purposes, and to apply it to any common 
 purpose. Prevent its being used for park pales prevent the very 
 large trees, of a description fit for ninety gun ships, being cut up 
 for smaller purposes : every saving of that description should first 
 be resorted to, and all sorts of investigation gone into, to ascertain 
 the effect of such measures; and they should be fully tried, before 
 the policy of taking away the market is resorted to, because that 
 will destroy the article instead of saving it, and defeat the policy on 
 which the bill is founded, if the saving of timber form any part of 
 it. I contend, therefore, sir, before the committee, in the first place, 
 that there is not a scarcity of timber ; and I then contend that this is 
 not the policy to be pursued to save timber, but that it will defeat 
 that object, and is the worst policy which can be resorted to. 
 I therefore submit, that I have removed this ground as a founda- 
 tion for a bill, which will take away the ship-building from the 
 river Thames, and carry it to India. 
 
 Now, if general and large grounds of policy, connected with 
 the navigation acts, are not the foundations of the bill ; if the 
 saving of timber is not the foundation of the bill ; I am at a los* 
 to conjecture what other public policy can be stated : always 
 keeping in view, which I request the honourable committee to do, 
 the foundation on which I started, that the present bill, which will 
 establish and make permanent a temporary system which has 
 brought these establishments so low, will lead to their entire 
 destruction. I assume that as a fact which I shall make out 
 beyond contradiction; to that fact all my argument must point: 
 I therefore again ask, upon what public policy can it be founded? 
 I am aware of none.
 
 14 
 
 This brings me to the question of, whether the subject is not to 
 be considered with reference to the immediate interests protected 
 by my learned friends here, who appear on behalf of the persons 
 engaged in ship-building in India, and to those interested in the 
 ship-building in Great Britain ; and if that is the fair state of the 
 question, and it is both legally and politically a question between 
 these two sets of persons; I think I shall have very little difficulty in 
 shewing that there is no comparison of claim, and no comparison 
 in discussing the consequences that may arise, as to whether they 
 are to get it, or we are to retain it. Upon what foundation would 
 these gentlemen stand first ? On the legal foundation, it is said ; 
 on the acts of parliament having directly pointed at the right of 
 natives of Asia who are subjects of his majesty to build ships 
 to be registered in Britain. I admit it so stands in the act 
 of the 26th of the king, which regulates the registering of vessels : 
 that act does certainly allude to his majesty's dominions in Asia 
 as well as elsewhere loosely, certainly ; but that act has remain- 
 ed, till of late years, a dead letter : there being no custom-house 
 officers in India who could register the vessel, the register act was 
 rendered nugatory in India. The gentlemen for whom I appear, 
 have, therefore, never practically felt any effect from that act of 
 parliament : in its terms and in its letter it appeared that the 
 British subjects in Asia were as well entitled to build ships as 
 those in England : the act was never resorted to, and, in conse- 
 quence, vessels from India until 1794 did not interfere with those 
 builtinthiscountry. What was the state of other colonies, American 
 and others ? they are within that act of parliament, and vessels may 
 be built there and brought to this country ; but there never has 
 been, in point of fact, any detrimental interference from them. 
 The ship-builders in this country have never been met in competi- 
 tion by any vessels of such size, qualities, descriptions of tonnage, 
 and to such an amount as seriously to hurt their building here ; 
 it has never gone to an extent to produce that effect. Whatever 
 might have been their foundation for complaint, if it had arisen 
 in other places as it has now in India, the necessity of making any 
 representation upon it has never occurred. The act, therefore, 
 as far as their interests were concerned, was a dead letter in India 
 and elsewhere ; the only interference they have been subject to, 
 which has been very serious, but of which they have no right to 
 complain, is from the immense number of prizes taken during 
 war, and which are made British ships, and admitted to register 
 that is compensated for by the demand for transports for the 
 king's service ; the result of which is, that at the end of a war there 
 is no doubt but that upon the discharge of the transports, all 
 of which being British registered vessels, will come in com- 
 petition with the builders, but that is an evil which these gentle- 
 men must submit to ; it would be injustice in them to suppose, 
 that because they are interfered with by prize vessels, that it is 
 proper for them to say, the vessels shall be burnt instead of being
 
 15 
 
 sold. It is impossible they could come forward with such a pro- 
 position ; it is a description of interference only to a limited 
 extent, because in time of war it is taken off by the transport* 
 employed ; and, when peace comes, the prize vessels will, after a war 
 that has lasted so long, decrease by degrees; it is an evil of a 
 limited description, and will die away, and cannot, in this case, 
 come into calculation. I mention it only that the committee 
 may gire me credit for considering the subject in every possible 
 way. 
 
 Now, sir, proving, as I think I shall, that there never has been 
 any serious interference in point of size of vessels and quantity of 
 tonnage, by building abroad, or by the prize vessels which have 
 been captured from the enemy, I now arrive at the point of com- 
 petition between the British and India builders, on which, pro- 
 bably, this case will rest. They seek on the other side to have the 
 temporary measure of which we complain made permanent, and 
 to have an arrangement made by which they will effect the trans* 
 fer of all the ship-building to India; and the consideration of all 
 the arguments I have used, lead to this conclusion, that it is a 
 question of competition between us ; and I will shew most 
 distinctly, that the question does not become the subject of com- 
 parison. Now, sir, I have already shewn, that the permission of 
 vessels to come from India which have obtained, registry here 
 seventy-six admitted to registry, and eight more admitted to 
 entry, and not registered, as is stated in the list I first read, have 
 produced the effect of giving a tonnage from India in the exact 
 proportion of the tonnage not built here: in what way ? Every 
 honorable member who has had this subject before him is aware 
 that the introduction of ships from India arose on the ground of 
 convenience to the persons who had to bring home property which 
 'was to be remitted from India; there were great contests and dis- 
 putes unon it, which I need not enter into, but which gave rise to 
 the demand for ships to come for a specified period to bring home 
 the produce to this country. It was early said by some of those 
 engaged in the very warm discussion upon this subject, that the 
 object of bringing home property from India was not the real one; 
 but those who wished it to be brought home in India ships, wanted 
 to introduce the ships without caring for the property. This has 
 been stated over and over again, and, if necessary, I shall be able 
 to prove it from some of the gentlemen the most earnest in the 
 application. With respect to the private trade, there is a docu- 
 ment before the committee, which 1 believe was published in 
 Bombay : " In pursuance of authority received from his excel- 
 lency the most noble the governor-general in council, in con- 
 sequence of the orders of the honorable the court of directors, the 
 public are hereby informed, that sealed proposals will be received 
 at the offices of the secretary to the government, on or before the 
 5th of October next, for freighting to the honorable company
 
 II) 
 
 ships built with teak within the honorable company's territories 
 in India of the burden of three hundred tons or upwards, for the 
 conveyance of private trade from Bombay to England in the sea- 
 son of 1803-4, under the express condition, that such ships shall 
 not return to India but be sold in England:" actually sending 
 home the ships, and sending them home for sale here. There is a 
 document with the name of Mr. Farley to it, who avowed it was not 
 sufficient to give the tonnage, that they wished to oblige their 
 friends by bringing home their property in vessels of that country, 
 and that it was necessary those vessels should be admitted to re- 
 gister, it could not satisfy them to give them the tonnage only ; 
 and this is stated, and is so obviously their intention, that I have 
 a right to say that a great number of gentlemen did feel that that 
 was the point they were driving at, and not the mere circumstance 
 of having the means of conveyance of their property. 
 
 Then in the course of this, which the committee will recollect 
 was a, discussion between the private traders and th East India 
 company, all leading to what took place last year, all these being 
 gradual attempts from time to time and from day to day to do away 
 the monopoly of the charter, though the contending parties were 
 talking about cargoes, the question was always reverted to, whe- 
 ther they wanted to bring the ships or the property home, and it 
 was obvious that their intention was to introduce the ships. Last 
 year the great subject of discussion was, whether the monopoly 
 should be preserved or not ; but during the long period of dis- 
 cussion of the monopoly, the interests, not then the subject of 
 discussion, and which now came forward, were lost sight of not 
 improperly lost sight of, because it could not be neglected by 
 government; but from the nature of the subject of discussion, and 
 the questions disposed of last year, the real interests of the ship- 
 builders never were investigated, until the present moment. It was 
 brought forward some time ago by representation to government 
 asa subject of discussion by the ship-builders. Why ? Becausethey 
 found the India ships coming into this country and encroaching on 
 their business ; and increasing on the British registry. They felt it 
 a serious evil to them ; it reduced their trade, and would ultimately 
 produce the annihilation of it; the subject was postponed by 
 temporary laws, and they waited the bringing forward the ques- 
 tion of last year, conceiving that with the termination of the 
 temporary acts the interference with their business would cease, 
 and that India ships would not come afterwards in competition 
 with British built ships ; that it was an interference, limited by a 
 particular act of parliament, connected with local circumstances, 
 which would not exist longer than until the question came for- 
 ward of what was to be done with respect to the India trade. They 
 were naturally anxious for their own interests, and to have the 
 whole subject discussed; but their interests being particular, and 
 not then so immediately coming under the attention of parlia-
 
 17 
 
 ment, were postponed till this sessions. They were put aside, as not 
 connected with the general subject of monopoly of the trade, and 
 are now under particular discussion in consequence of this bill, 
 which we may consider as part of the general measure of last 
 year ; and, sir, this bill will permanently fix the temporary ar- 
 rangement with a limitation of no real use or advantage, giving 
 to the India ship-builders all the trade, as I will shew, between 
 India and Great Britain, and thereby transferring the whole of 
 the most important ship-building of this country to carry on a 
 trade that must ere long be one of the most important in which 
 this country can be engaged. 
 
 The act of the 26th of the king alludes to the right of persons 
 in Asia legally to build ships. I have shewn that this legal right 
 never was resorted to, and that the India ships never came to this 
 country, except under tti temporary acts of parliament ; how 
 they became registered I never could distinctly ascertain. It is 
 a subject of great dispute, and at Madras it was a subject of ad- 
 judication by the court, that the 26th of the king did not extend 
 to India ; and cases have been decided on an appeal here, on the 
 ground that as there was no person there to execute the act, 
 though the general expression had an allusion to Asia, it was a 
 dead letter there, and therefore did not apply to India : how they 
 got registered here I do not understand. 
 
 Mr. . (A Member.) That never was the received 
 
 doctrine in India. 
 
 Mr. Harrison. In Madras the determination was, that the 
 registry act did not extend to India, and in a case upon appeal it 
 was said, that the question we were disputing as to the right of 
 property that had been the subject of mortgage was to be con- 
 sidered without reference to the register. 
 
 Mr. . That register was made in Madras. 
 
 Mr. Harrison. I have understood th.it the course of proceed- 
 ings was, that certificates of building were granted in India, that 
 they came over here with that certificate, and were permitted to 
 be registered in this country ; in other instances there was a sort 
 of transfer to other owners, and so registry obtained in the name 
 of the new owners; but it does not signify in what way they ac- 
 quired the character. There are seventy-six now so registered, 
 and there are others which have come under the temporary acts, 
 which are not registered. Some of those which are now here 
 were built at Pegu, and other territories which can never be re- 
 gistered hereafter. 
 
 Mr. It was always the practice of government, I 
 
 believe, to confine their register to ships built in Bombay or Cal- 
 cutta. 
 
 Mr. Harrison. It is clear that under this bill no ships can be 
 registered but those which bear the character of being built in 
 British India; and the ships to be considered as entitled to register
 
 18 
 
 are confined to the limited trade. Then, sir, lor the sake of the 
 argument, I will admit, that from the circumstance of his majesty 
 occupying distant pos essions in India, Ceylon for instance, where 
 there are custom-house officers, the act was in full force in India, 
 because to that extent the act of parliament would be operative 
 in India, where there were custom-house officers, who could exe- 
 cute the purposes of the act. Ships if built at other places, in 
 Bengal or Bombay, might, I believe, under the law be carried from 
 those places and registered in Ceylon, so as to become British 
 ships ; therefore I distinctly admit, for the purpose of raising the 
 broad question of policy, that those gentlemen who are interested 
 in ship-building in India may say, their ships are entitled to 
 British registry. Now on that proposition, the committee will 
 see this bill proposes a limitation, because, if, by law, the persons 
 in India are entitled to build and register their vessels, there is a 
 distinct limitation of that right in the bill; it confines the right of 
 registry to a particular description of vessels and trade; they will 
 not be allowed to come into the regular class of British ships; they 
 are confined to the trade from India to England, and back again, 
 and the circuitous voyage: that is, with leave to touch at inter- 
 mediate countries, South America, North America, or any other 
 places within the limits of the company's charter. So far it is a 
 bill of limitation of the legal right, and in that respect might 
 prima facie bear the appearance of a gift to the persons for whom 
 I appear. It follows, as a necessary consequence, that if parlia- 
 ment can limit the right, they can take it away that will not be 
 disputed; and it is also a general indisputable proposition, that if 
 the public interest requires the restriction of a right which is pos- 
 sessed by private individuals, they cannot complain of being de- 
 prived of it; and if it was thought fit to abrogate the law that con- 
 tines the general trade of the empire to British built vessels, par- 
 liament has power to do so. My learned friends must admit that 
 genera! principle of policy as well as myself; therefore, though 1 
 admit distinctly the construction of the law, 1 am now about to 
 contend in point of policy, parliament must abrogate that law, 
 and take away any right to introduce India shipping. It is mate- 
 rial that the right should be completely restrained; because I 
 shall shew to the committee, that it is by the bill restrained in 
 terms only, and that the business will be transferred from one 
 side of the water to the other. I therefore contend, that if in point 
 of policy parliament may entertain the question of limitation and 
 restriction, that the period is arrived when they must limit and 
 restrain the existing law to prevent the consequence of a total loss 
 of ship-building of large vessels in this country. Admitting ves- 
 sels for limited or temporary purposes leads to the consequence 
 that the act of parliament of the 26th of the king must be altered 
 to the extent of securing the British builders in England against 
 the interference of those in India, if ship-building and the work-
 
 19 
 
 men are worth preserving. This brings me back again to the posi- 
 tion vvitli which I first set out, and to which I must again advert, 
 namely, that the introduction of the India built ships h;is hitherto 
 interfered with the building of large ships in this country, and 
 that the continuance of it will entirely annihilate it. 
 
 My learned friends will come prepared to shew that at present 
 ships cannot be built cheaper in India than here; probably they 
 will be prepared to prove they cost more. The freight of tonnage 
 with respect to the India company is, I believe, pretty nearly the 
 same ; they pay nearly the same freight for one vessel as the other, 
 and they do not, it is said, make it at present the subject of a. 
 saving; they do not contend for a right to use these vessels under 
 an idea that if they are permitted to carry on the trade in the way 
 now proposed they will have a cheaper freight. As i/ct, I have 
 not heard this contended for. At present the mode of equipping 
 the ships in India renders the expense more equal than it can be 
 hereafter, in consequence of the vessels built there being fitted 
 out, in some instances, with materials carried from this country. 
 Now I must-beg leave to discuss a little that question. I believe 
 it is a fact, that at present a part of the sails, cordage, iron and 
 copper is carried from this country ; but I would ask the com- 
 mittee how long can such a course of proceeding possibly exist, 
 if the building of all these vessels is transferred from one country 
 to the other, or on what principle is it to be made to exist? Will 
 it be said that the sailmakers, that the ropemakers, and the 
 shipsmiths are to be protected in this country, and that therefore 
 the articles which constitute the furnishing of a vessel must not 
 be permitted to be brought from that country, but that the vessels 
 must equip themselves from this? Is it meant to protect those 
 trades, and say they shall not be interfered with ? If it stands on 
 the principle only of protection, who are more entitled to it than 
 my clients ? And therefore if the arrangement, that it is not to be 
 allowed to the ship-builders in India to supply themselves with 
 those articles, is to be the foundation of this bill, we have an 
 equal claim for protection with those persons. 
 
 Is it a question of duties of revenue? If so, we will shew that 
 under any arrangement, either of the sails, or cordage, or iron, 
 or copper being sent from this country, there will be a loss, and an 
 important loss of duty. But this is not a subject which, as I be- 
 fore stated, I mean to enter into much ; but I must allude to it, 
 because I consider the duties of customs and excise, and the profit 
 to arise to the State, as a much fitter subject of consideration of 
 government than the subject of individual discussion. It is a 
 subject which the committee will perm'it to be alluded to where 
 private interests are involved in the same question; but into that 
 question I shall not enter otherwise than by saying, that if it 
 stands on the ground of revenue, a material defalcation will take 
 place from permitting ships to be built in India, although the
 
 furnishing' of them to some extent may be supplied from this 
 country. 1 therefore, sir, contend, if it is a question of protection, 
 we are better entitled than the other persons ; and if of revenue, 
 that the revenue will be interfered with materially if this measure 
 is adopted. 
 
 I next proceed to enquire ( I always argue on the practical effect 
 of the transfer of ship-building to the other side of the water) how 
 long it is possible the restriction can continue which will com- 
 pel the builders in India to supply themselves with the articles 
 necessary for the furniture of a ship from this country, when the 
 establishments are fixed there, and when the inconvenience which 
 would arise from having the manufacture of the articles which 
 are to be used in that country entirely carried on here? If they 
 are to have their supply from this country, the accidental losses 
 of vessels carrying out the materials from this country would lead 
 to inconceivable inconvenience. How long will it be possible to 
 maintain that restriction when they are able to manufacture those 
 articles of supply in India at a much cheaper rate than they can 
 be got from this country ? From the settlement in South Wales 
 there is not an article of iron that will not probably at no very- 
 distant period be supplied at a much cheaper rate than from this 
 country : hemp and flax will be supplied from that country, and 
 is also to be got in India much cheaper than in this country. From 
 South America copper can be got also at a cheaper rate, so as to 
 destroy the possibility of its being sent out from this country in 
 competition; and when it is the subject of proof that all the ar- 
 ticles necessary for the equipment of a ship are to be found in 
 India of Asiatic manufacture, and that they can be procured at a 
 much less expense, is it possible to imagine that restrictions as to 
 such articles can remain any number of years ? And is it possible 
 to say you can continue an arrangement for building a vessel there, 
 and equipping her with manufactured articles from this country ? 
 The arrangement of sending out the cordage, and sails, and iron, 
 and copper is practicable now, in the infancy of the establish- 
 ments: when they have found and established the means of pro- 
 curing these articles much cheaper in India, is it possible to say 
 you will keep up the system of constructing a vessel on one side 
 of the water and furnishing her from the other ? But the fact is, 
 as we will shew, that they supply themselves now to a great ex- 
 tent : we shall shew that the building and fitting out of ships 
 there has increased ; and that the quantity of articles sent from 
 this country has already greatly decreased on all articles; there- 
 by shewing that the inevitable consequence of passing this bill 
 into a law has already began to operate; and therefore, in a period 
 not very far distant, all the articles will be furnished from the 
 other side of the water. Any difficulty which may at present exist 
 in the business in India, will be done away; and when a great 
 number of persons bringing up to ship-building, whose wages are
 
 cheaper, have become skilful, the necessary consequence will be, 
 that in the course of a few years the building in India will become 
 BO much cheaper than here, that if no other circumstance arose to 
 annihilate competition, the comparison of price would do it, and 
 put an end to the establishments of my client* : therefore, if these 
 gentlemen had not been interfered with to the extent to which 
 they have ; if I had not the argument that the tonnage they have 
 lost is to be found in the India built vessels, as soon as the builders 
 had made their establishment in India, and the articles of sails, 
 cordage, iron, and copper were also found in India, the competi- 
 tion would be destroyed, and the ship-building of this country 
 entirely annihilated. 
 
 I have already disposed of the argument arising out of this fact, 
 namely, that cheap freight is not a foundation in policy for inter- 
 fering with my clients ; and it is not necessary to enter into *uy 
 argument upon that, because if the principle is contended for by 
 the builders in India, or the merchants there, that there is a con- 
 venience in having ships built abroad, because they build cheaper 
 than they do here, and therefore they would be able to sell their 
 merchandize cheaper, it attacks at once the whole system of navi- 
 gation laws, and leads to the consideration of one of the greatest 
 questions, in its consequences from the nature and probable 
 extent of the future trade to India, which has for many years been 
 discussed in parliament. 
 
 Now, sir, to that subject I will shortly advert, before I recapi- 
 tulate the foundation of my arguments; and in so doing I hope 
 the committee will think I do not unnecessarily take up their time. 
 The navigation law has hitherto been considered in this country 
 as the great foundation of the existence of the navy itself. I think 
 no man will contend, if the trade of this country was destroyed, 
 that the navy could exist ; no man will believe that the mere ap- 
 plication of pecuniary resources will enable any nation to establish 
 and maintain a navy such as we have fortunately hitherto pos- 
 sessed, but by the breed of seamen by extensive trade. It is 
 equally indisputable that if it is intended to preserve the ship- 
 building of this country, so as to furnish a supply of men to carry 
 on the naval system of the country, there must be large private 
 establishments which can employ them when it may be rendered 
 necessary to discharge them from the king's yards in the time of 
 peace. It must be admitted that it is equally important to the 
 existence of the navy as a fabrication, that the ship-building in 
 this country should be maintained to the full extent, as a nursery 
 to the naval yards, on the breaking out of and during the con- 
 tinuance of a war, and as a receptacle of persous out of employ- 
 ment in the time of peace, as that the nursery of seamen should be. 
 encouraged to man the navy for service. The one is a proposition 
 which stands as firm as the other: they are of the same import- 
 ance in point of public policy, and if you lose sight of this policy 
 
 I554H74
 
 you will destroy your means of being able to make any sudden ex- 
 ertion ; you will transfer the shipwrights to other countries, where 
 they would be gladly received ; and the consequence necessarily 
 will be that in the end this country must become dependent upon 
 others, or on its distant colonies, for the support and existence 
 of the navy itself. 
 
 I shall prove to the committee that there are at this moment 
 nearly three thousand people in such a destitute situation for want 
 of work, as to be actually in no condition to present themselves to 
 this committee, because they cannot send counsel to advocate their 
 case here. I have received a letter from the solicitor for them, 
 stating their inability to appear, and intreating of me all possible 
 exertion in their favour, as they are in too distressed circumstances 
 to send counsel to support their petition. I believe the fact will 
 be proved to be, that from there having been formerly near three 
 thousand men employed, there are now only about two hundred and 
 fifty employed ; and that a large number are dependent on the 
 parish for support. How long will they remain subsisted by the 
 parish, when they are told that in France or Holland they will be 
 received with open arms, and are tempted to quit their own country 
 and resort to another ? What may not be the consequence of such 
 a state of things ? 
 
 The large establishments in the river, which have hitherto given 
 employment to these men, have produced an extent of building 
 for the navy, to which I must alhide before I conclude. The com- 
 mittee will see an account which does not contain all which have 
 been built in the private yards, in London, and at the outports, 
 but only of those ships and vessels of war now in the king's ser- 
 vice ; by which it will appear that they are to the extent uf 538 
 ships; that of the present navy that number of ships have been 
 built in the private yards; there have been some built in the 
 outports, but the greater part have been built in the yards in the 
 Thames ; that of those, nine of them were built between the years 
 1759 and 1770; forty-eight were built from l77l to 1783; thirty- 
 one were built from 1784 to 1792 ; sixty-eight were built between 
 1793 and 1801 ; ninety-one were built between 1802 and 1805 ; 
 and two hundred and eighty-three were bailt between 1806 and 
 1813. Now when the committee see the immense extent of the 
 British navy, the large number built in the merchants yards, and 
 the committee will distinguish the prison ships, those at sea, and 
 those in actual service, and they will ascertain that much the 
 greater part are not useless, or laid up, but are now sailing on the 
 seas, constituting a part of the efficient naval force of the country. 
 I ask therefore whether the use which has been made' of the pri- 
 vate establishments resorted to in the last and this war to build 
 such an immense number of ships for the navy, does not prove 
 that these establishments are of the greatest importance in cases 
 ^>f sudden or great emergency ; and that in the present state of
 
 25 
 
 things, if something is not done to give them a hope that at the 
 termination of the war their difficulties will cease, there is great 
 danger of their transferring themselves to other countries, or 
 that the ship-building, which is connected with the existence of 
 the navy of the country, must be transferred, if not to other 
 countries, at least to one of our own most distant settlements. 
 The latter consequence would not be so fatal to the country as 
 if they were to be established in Holland or France ; but would 
 the committee calmly contemplate the consequence of seeing the 
 support of the ship-buildinginterestof this country, which is so con- 
 nected with the navy, so transferred as to leave the mother coun- 
 try dependent on one of its remote colonies for its naval strength ? 
 Will any man say, that fifty years hence, that colony (whatever it 
 may be) will belong to us ? And if it is put to any man, whether 
 he would vest the security of the state upon the chance that no 
 enemy would arise or events occur there to separate it from the 
 mother country, would it not make him pause ? Will not the 
 legislature hesitate before a sanction is given to a policy which 
 will permit such a consequence to depend upon such a chance? 
 The experience of a few years past has shewn the effect already- 
 produced, and that the interference of India ships must end in the 
 annihilation of the establishments here. I would ask, whether 
 that will not be sufficient to call on the legislature to abrogate the 
 existing law, and confine the building of ships to this country, in 
 such a way as to prevent these great and important establishments 
 from being ruined. 
 
 Under these circumstances I shall sit down quite satisfied, that 
 though I have entered into no details, because if I had I must 
 have occupied the attention of the committee for more than one 
 day, I have brought the sirbject under their view in such a way 
 as to enable them to apply the evidence I must lay before them 
 on this important subject, and I cannot help feeling satisfied that 
 when that evidence is considered in the different points of view in 
 which I have presented it to the committee, together with the 
 consequences which may arise from adopting the measure pro- 
 posed, it will lead the committee to the conclusion of recom- 
 mending to the house, that the clauses in the navigation acts 
 should be altered, to the absolute exclusion of all India built 
 ships and vessels from any participation in the privileges of 
 British registry. 
 
 THE END .
 
 T. DAVISON, Lomburd-sUeet. 
 Whttpfriars, London.
 
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