Great Britain. Parliament. 
 House of Commons. 
 
 >odf'O.l 's report of the 
 debate... on Sir "illiar; Pul 
 tenev's irotion
 
 AT LOS ANGELES
 
 WOODFALL's 
 
 REPORT OF THE DEBATE 
 
 IN THE 
 
 HOUSE OF COMMONS, 
 
 ON 
 
 Wednesday, Nov. 25, 1801, 
 
 ON 
 
 SIR WILLIAM PULTENEY's MOTION, 
 
 For a Committee to be appointed to take into Confider- 
 ation the Papers laid upon the Table last Session of 
 Parliament, relating to the Proceedings with Regard to 
 the TRADE BETWEEN ENGLAND AND THE EAST 
 INDIES, and to report their Opinion thereon to the 
 House. 
 
 London : 
 
 PRINTED BY T. GILLET, SALISBURY SQUARE* 
 
 1802.
 
 WEDNESDAY, NOV. 
 
 IR W. PULTENEY rose to make his promised 
 motion on this important subject. He began 
 by observing that he had the preceding day given 
 notice of his intention to move that day for seve- 
 ral additional papers. As he understood, how- 
 7 : ever, that the Committee would have full power 
 , , to call for persons, papers, and records, he should 
 proceed at once to the subject to which he wished 
 j to draw the attention of the House. A great va- 
 riety of documents had last session been laid upon 
 the table w r ith regard to the Trade between Eng- 
 land and India, and his object was that these should 
 now be fully considered. The grand question 
 which arose out of them was, whether British 
 Merchants were to receive such facilities as to en- 
 able them to enter into a competition with fo- 
 eigners in a vast branch of Commerce ? The ques- 
 tion always appeared to him to be of the first mag- 
 nitude, and it rose upon him in importance -the 
 
 A 2 more 
 
 i> r~ ^ s ? v f * 
 
 oi>4.oHM>-
 
 more he considered it. Many objections had been 
 made to the proposed regulations ; these he had 
 carefully weighed, and the effect they had taken 
 upon him was to impress upon his mind a more 
 lively sense of the necessity of calling for the in- 
 terference of the Legislature. 
 
 In the year 1793, when the Charter of the Com- 
 pany was renewed, various clauses were introduced 
 into the Act in favour of Private Trade. From 
 the manoeuvres of the Directors, however, these 
 were productive of no good effect, and the inten- 
 tions of the Legislature were completely frus- 
 trated. From the increased difficulties thus expe- 
 rienced by individual traders, many representa- 
 tions were made, and at last a Committee was ap- 
 pointed to take the whole subject fully into consi- 
 deration. A report was by and by published, ap- 
 proving, without qualification, of the conduct of 
 the Directors. By a Court of Proprietors this 
 Report was afterwards confirmed. It was for an 
 account of these proceedings that he had moved 
 last Session of Parliament. It was then too late 
 to discuss them, but he had given notice of his 
 intention to bring the subject before the House as 
 soon as Parliament should again be assembled. 
 That notice he had renewed, and it was not his 
 fault that he had been so long in fulfilling his pro- 
 mise. He was told that a compromise was likely 
 to take place, and he thought it right to see whe- 
 ther justice could be done without an Act of the 
 
 Legislature.
 
 5 
 
 Legislature. He understood that terms had been 
 offered, by the Court of Directors, but these were / 
 so unreasonable, so inadequate, to gain the end 
 proposed, that he considered it his duty to remain 
 silent no longer. Whatever might be the opinion 
 of others, to this compromise he could not agree 
 with any regard to the interests, or even the safety 
 of the country. 
 
 When the East India Company was first estab- 
 lished, in the end of the seventeenth century, the / 
 object of the Legislature was two-fold, i. By the 
 sale of the monopoly to raise a sum of money, 
 the grant of exclusive privileges in trade being in ^ 
 those days an expedient for filling the treasury, 
 often resorted to by the Crown. 2. A second con- 
 sideration was, that a trade so distant could not 
 be carried on by individuals, but only by a joint ^ 
 stock Company. It was therefore thought that 
 the wants of Government might at once be sup- 
 plied, and a benefit conferred on the Commerce of 
 the Company. 
 
 In the reign of Queen Anne the monopoly was 
 again sold, and a second Company was formed. 
 As they did notgo on very well together, a union 
 between them was proposed, and effected, and for 
 this reason the present Company was styled the 
 United Company of Merchants trading to the East In* 
 dies. The monopoly was long preserved with 
 great rigour. It is scarcely possible for individuals 
 to trade by themselves, but every British subject 
 A 3 was
 
 was prohibited, under severe penalties, from hav- 
 ing any concern with a foreign commercial Com- 
 pany trading to the East. For a little while our 
 East India Company went on very well, but then 
 they were only Merchants. Become soon after 
 Victors and Sovereigns, their affairs went to ruin. 
 In fifteen years after their first territorial acquisition 
 their profits had not only entirely ceased, but their 
 lofles were so great, that for a rupee, worth 2s. 
 they could get no more than is. 3d. This fact 
 they themselves had acknowledged. Indeed, said 
 Sir William, it was not at all matter of surprise. 
 The character of Traders and Sovereigns are in- 
 consistent, and their union has never failed^ to 
 prove ruinous to the mercantile concerns of these 
 counting-house kings, and to make their unhappy 
 subjects suffer under all the evils of oppression and 
 misrule. 
 
 On the ground of the complete incapacity of 
 the Court of the Directors, a Bill was brought 
 into Parliament in the year 1783, to take all power 
 and management out of their hands. I opposed 
 this Bill, because I considered it dangerous and 
 unconstitutional. It went to establish a Board with 
 vast authority and influence, independent of the 
 Crown, to erect imperlum in mperlo. After it had 
 passed this House, and had been read once or twice 
 in the House of Lords, it was happily thrown out. 
 Another corrective was then resorted to, and a 
 Board of Commissioners was appointed, which, 
 
 in
 
 7 
 
 in various ways, was to check and controul the 
 Court of Directors. No dispatches were allowed 
 to be sent to any of the Presidencies till they had 
 first been communicated to the Board, and the 
 Commissioners received great power over the ter- 
 ritorial revenue and the political concerns of the 
 dominions in India. To interfere with matters of 
 Trade, they received no power any farther than 
 to see that the mercantile schemes of the Direc- 
 tors did not interfere with the well-being of the 
 Indian Empire. Things continued in this situa- 
 tion till 1793, when the Charter was to be re- 
 newed. Before this it had been perceived that the 
 revenues must fail if native industry was not more 
 encduraged. Foreigners were therefore allowed 
 to trade on the same terms with the Company 
 themselves. The jealousy of British Merchants, 
 however, still remained. Those who had made 
 fortunes in India having thus no means to remit 
 them to England, took the benefit of the Trade 
 allowed to the French, the Danes, the Swedes, and 
 the Americans. Immense profits were thus made 
 by foreigners, and they, from thus being sure of 
 a cargo home, were enabled to export to India 
 with great advantage, and, in many instances, to 
 undersell the Company. 
 
 In 1793 the bad policy of this system began to 
 be perceived, and many clauses were introduced 
 to give facility to the Private Trade. Whoever 
 reads the Act must perceive the extreme jealousy 
 
 A 4 the
 
 / 
 
 / 
 
 / 
 
 8 
 
 the Legislature entertained of the designs of the 
 Directors. It was well known that the Directors 
 would use their utmost endeavours to obstruct 
 this Trade, but sufficient guards, it was thought, 
 were introduced to protect it in its new immu- 
 nities. The Directors, nevertheless, have obstruct- 
 ed it materially, and in as far as lay in them, frus- 
 trated the intentions of Parliament. The Gover- 
 nors of India uniformly complained of their con- 
 duct, and recommended a more liberal system. 
 Sir John Shore, Mr. Hastings, Lord Cornwallis ; 
 in short, there is not a single exception. To these 
 remonstrances the Directors obstinately refused to 
 listen, and still declared war against Private Trade, 
 unless it was carried on in a way which prevented 
 all competition with foreigners. In 1798 Mar- 
 quis Wellesley found it absolutely necessary to 
 send home the produce of India in India-built 
 ships. The number that arrived was very great, 
 yet it never once was pretended that the smallest 
 injury had ensued. The Directors did not even 
 hint at a bad consequence, but sent express orders 
 that this might never be done again. The next 
 year, therefore, the Governor General refused per- 
 mission for the sailing of any home built ships, 
 but the year after he again found it necessary to 
 employ a considerable number. A strong letter 
 was in consequence wrote out to his Lordship. 
 Byway of compliance with his representations, they 
 proposed some advantages to the Private Trade, 
 
 but
 
 9 
 
 but these concessions were insidious, and would 
 have left them at liberty to hamper it at plea- 
 sure. I think it is now time to expose their eva- 
 sions, and to bring the question fairly to issue be- 
 fore a competent tribunal. 
 
 The Trade of the East India Company consists 
 of two branches, that to China, where they are 
 mere Merchants, and that to India, where they are 
 Sovereigns. The first is a profitable, the 'second a 
 losing Trade. The sales are therefore always con- 
 founded. In 1800 they amounted together to 
 about seven millions. Of that there was re-ex- 
 ported 4,700,000!. and of the latter sum there was 
 2,300,000!. from Private Trade, one half of the 
 whole re-exported. It is allowed that the Foreign 
 Trade to India amounts to 1,500,000!. I believe 
 it to be a great deal more. Ships supposed to be 
 tinder ballast have been discovered to be richly 
 laden, and various expedients were used to dis- 
 guise their amount. Of what consequence then, 
 Sir, is the question we are discussing ? To this 
 Trade no bounds can be set ; a few years back in- 
 digo was not known as an article of Commerce 
 between the two countries, and in 1 800 we im- 
 ported indigo to the value of a million sterling. 
 The importation of cotton, and various other 
 commodities, has likewise been wonderfully in- 
 creased, and it is never to be forgotten, that these 
 are raw materials to exercise our own ingenuity 
 and employ our own industry. The advantages 
 
 to
 
 10 
 
 to be derived from this Trade are great to a degree, 
 though not yet understood ; and shall they all be 
 forfeited from the caprice or illiberality of the Di- 
 rectors ? We do not seek to deal in one article in 
 which they deal themselves ! It is indeed strange 
 that such a question should ever have been stirred. 
 All this art is used to prevent us from coming into 
 competition, not with the Company, but with fo- 
 reigners. They say you must be under our con- 
 troul, you must employ the ships we send out to 
 you, you must submit to many manifest disad- 
 vantages, not for our sake, not for the good of 
 the commonwealth ; but, lest you should endan- 
 ger the mercantile gains of France and America. 
 It is said, however, that the Company's sales 
 abroad might be injured. But how can this ever 
 be the case when individual traders never expose 
 the same articles to sale. The Company's sales 
 will be injured, to be sure, by thus labouring to 
 enable foreigners to import the same articles with 
 every advantage. But British subjects constitute 
 the only objects of their jealousy. Rather than 
 allow India-built ships to come home, they will 
 be at a great expence, and send out ships from 
 England. To pretend that they thus place the 
 Private Trader on an equally fair footing is puerile. 
 According to this plan the cargo must be provided 
 long before ; the time of the ship's arrival is un- 
 certain, when she may be allowed to be loaded is 
 uncertain, and it is still more uncertain when she 
 
 may
 
 II 
 
 may be dispatched. Every thing is cramped by 
 arbitrary regulations. But India shipping may 
 be had cheaper ! Whether cheaper or not appears 
 to me of little consequence, it has so many ad- 
 vantages in other respects. The goods are pro- 
 vided when the ship is ready, they are immediately 
 put on board, and the ship sets sail with them the 
 moment she is fully loaded. Do consider, Sir, what 
 the Company propose to do. How can they know 
 what goods are to be sent home ? How can they 
 proportion the supply of shipping to the demand ? 
 Have they not to their utmost wish the power of 
 cramping the speculations of the Merchants ? Let 
 them consider the danger they run of losing the 
 Trade of India altogether. It is a well known 
 fact, that in 1793 there were sold in POrient alone 
 India goods to the value of 1,200,000!. sterling. 
 How great is the Trade of France alone, then, and 
 how great must be the total of the Trade of Fo- 
 reigners, when the extent of the dealings with In- 
 dia are considered Lisbon, America, and the 
 States in the North ? I am by no means of opinion 
 that foreigners should be excluded. By these 
 means alone the revenues can be kept up. All I 
 ask is, that these advantages should not be granted 
 to foreigners exclusively. That a proposition so 
 clear should be received like this must indeed con- 
 found a stranger. Not only the twenty-four Di- 
 rectors who joined in the Report were decidedly 
 hostile to the plan proposed, but upon a change of 
 the Direction they were supported by the six new 
 
 Members
 
 12 
 
 Members who came in, making in all an unani- 
 mous body of the thirty persons at the head of 
 affairs. The Proprietors approved of the Report 
 by a large majority, and a ballot served only to 
 shew more unequivocally the ascendency of the 
 Directors. Although there was no secret history 
 in all this, it would by no means be decisive. I 
 have authority to ' quote against authority. On 
 my side of the question, besides all the Governors 
 General for the last twenty years, I have the late 
 President of the Board of Control. Have these 
 illustrious characters had no opportunity to in- 
 quire into the affairs of India, or have they laid 
 down a resolution to overset the Company, and 
 to dissolve our Empire in the East ? I dare say the 
 Directors think they are in the right, but I will 
 now shew, how they come to think themselves in 
 the right. 
 
 When the Company was first established, like 
 the Bank of England and other joint stock com- 
 panies, the Directors were chosen by thofe who 
 held a small sum of stock, and the election was 
 annual. The qualification to vote was then only 
 500!. It was thought the Proprietors interfered 
 too much, and the sum was raised to joool. A 
 Bill was then brought in to change the annual 
 elections, and it was enacted, that six should go 
 out in rotation yearly, so that, when once elected, 
 a Member remained in office for four years, and 
 had great facilities given him in naming his suc- 
 cessor. The indiscreet interference of the Pro- 
 prietors
 
 prietors was prevented, to be sure ; but it often 
 happens that in attempting to mend one evil, you 
 occasion others of equal consequence. It is clear 
 that ever since the Directors have been self-cre- 
 ated, there is but one solitary instance of Gentle- 
 men being brought into the Direction who were 
 not on the House List. They are now a permanent 
 fixed body, and never talk but of going out or 
 coming in by rotation. The Constitution is com- 
 pletely altered ; there is now an Aristocracy, a 
 very powerful, and, in my mind, a very danger- 
 ous Aristocracy. How is it supported ? I do not 
 blame these Gentlemen. The love of power is 
 natural ; and no one who has tasted its sweets will 
 willingly descend into a private station. The 
 blame lies with those who allow them to gratify 
 this thirst for domination, and that they are al- 
 lowed, is indeed much to be regretted. Of all 
 Governments, Aristocracy is the most tyrannical, 
 oppressive, and odious. I abhor it still more than 
 Democracy. I asked how these men kept them- 
 selves in power ? They have the management of 
 an immense revenue, they have an immense pa- 
 tronage, and ought to have it : I opposed bestow- 
 ing it on a Board of Commissioners, and I think 
 it could not be possessed safely by the Crown. 
 But this is not all. They have the buying of an 
 immense quantity of goods for India ; they have 
 the hiring of vessels to transport them ; so that 
 their influence is considerable over the manufac- 
 turing,
 
 14 
 
 turing, and unbounded over the shipping interest. 
 All who furnish ships' stores they can favour. 
 When a man's ship is taken up, they tell him, you 
 will take your ropes from such a person, your 
 sails from another we point out, and your anchors 
 from a third. As a proof of all this, I ask, whe- 
 ther many who hear me have not heard it said, 
 " Oh, he is a great man, he is sure to do well, he 
 " has a vote at the India House ?" 
 
 The Directors do tell the truth when they say, 
 that, by the encouragement of Private Trade, the 
 present Constitution of the Company would be 
 overturned ; and when they state this they state 
 the true and the sole ground of their opposition. 
 The Private Traders would get rich, their influ- 
 ence would increase, the dependence of the Pro- 
 prietors on the Directors would be greatly dimi- 
 nished, and the Aristocracy would tumble to the 
 ground. Here is a very good ground for the op- 
 position of the Court of Directors, but here is no- 
 thing which in any degree affects the question it- 
 self. 
 
 I have stated the reason which actuates the 
 breasts of the Directors ; I shall now state the rea- 
 sons which they assign to others. I shall refer to 
 V the Report, which was drawn up by a very ho- 
 nourable and upright man. I never did read a 
 paper drawn up with more address, or that shewed 
 a greater talent at making the worse appear the 
 better reason. While one reads, all appears right, 
 
 and
 
 '5 
 
 * 
 
 and we unequivocally approve the conduct of the 
 Directors ; but the moment we lay down the book, 
 and ask ourselves what arguments have been urged 
 against allowing us the full benefit of our Indian 
 Possessions, we are obliged to confess, none, but 
 that you would thus endanger the power of the 
 Court of Directors. 
 
 1. The first ostensible argument is, that if these 
 privileges were granted, British Capital would 
 leave the country. But the Company themselves 
 are about to raise two millions, and if there is any 
 danger from that sum being exported, it is fully 
 as great when it is exported by the Company. 
 Sir, I deny that any danger exists. When capital 
 leaves the country and is lost, it is a bad thing ; 
 but if it return with a profit, this is the best way it 
 could be employed. The money sent to India will 
 not be given in presents to the Hindoos. It will be 
 employed in buying raw materials to be brought 
 to England, and will thus encourage industry at 
 home and abroad, and add to the strength of the 
 Empire. These Gentlemen tell us this capital 
 might have been employed more profitably. So 
 they think they can judge better of this matter 
 than the owners of this capital. They are to be 
 thanked for their friendly solicitude ; but they 
 will probably find that their own affairs will de- 
 mand all their attention. 
 
 2. We have next set before us the terrors 
 of colonization. Upon this point they dwell at 
 
 great
 
 i6 
 
 great length, and with great complacency. But 
 jn telling us that the ruin of the country would 
 be the inevitable consequence of any relaxation, 
 they surely forget the nature of the Indian Go- 
 vernment. At present no one can go to India 
 without the consent of the Aristocracy, and when 
 he is there the Aristocracy can put him on board 
 a ship and send him home as soon as they have a 
 mind. Without leave of the Government, no 
 one can go beyond a few miles from Calcutta. 
 By a fundamental law no European is capable of 
 holding lands in any part of the Company's pos- 
 sessions. Between India and America no analogy 
 can be drawn, although the feparation of that 
 country had been necessary, instead of occasioned 
 by mismanagement. In America the climate re- 
 sembled that of England, and the Constitution of 
 Government was almost exactly the same. Above 
 all, America was uninhabited, and boundless tracts 
 of fertile land were presented to the industry of 
 the planter. India is one of the most populous 
 countries on the globe, and every inch of ground 
 is appropriate. The climate is so fatal that it is 
 impossible for a European to remain in it alive a 
 few years ; the form of Government must be ar- 
 bitrary, and may be tyrannical. And this is the 
 spot which, after having become a nourishing co- 
 lony by draining the Mother Country of men and 
 money, will at length break off all connection with 
 us, and become our formidable rival ! 
 
 ?. But
 
 I? 
 
 3. But great numbers of Lascars would be 
 brought to London, and being here corrupted, y 
 wouldj on their return home, corrupt their coun- 
 trymen. Ttey would thus carry a bad report of 
 us to Hindostan ; the English character would be 
 degraded, and the English Empire in the East 
 shaken to its foundations. All this is really urged 
 with gravity. Would it not be possible to pre- 
 vent the Lascars from ever entering London ? 
 We trade to China; but our men are not allowed 
 an unrestrained intercourse with the Chinese. It 
 would be an easy matter, at a small expence, to 
 superintend the Lascars when on shore, and 
 though the expence should be considerable, the 
 profits of the Trade would be amply able to bear 
 it. It is a curious fact, Sir, that the Company are 
 daily in the practice of bringing home Lascars, 
 and if I am rightly informed, those they do bring 
 home are allowed to wander about the streets, and 
 to die for want, while those brought home by the 
 Private Traders live on shore in a kind of bar- 
 racks prepared for them, and are watched over 
 with the greatest care. s 
 
 4. The Shipping Interest would suffer. Sir, if 
 I am rightly informed, the Shipping Interest are 
 by no means adverse* to the plan. The price of 
 timber in this country is now so enormous that 
 there is scarcely any profit to be made by build- 
 ing ships, while there is a great deal to be made 
 by repairing them. If Trade increases, and the 
 
 C number
 
 i8 
 
 number of ships entering our ports is increased, 
 they therefore justly think they would ultimately 
 be gainers. 
 
 5. An argument still more formidable is, that 
 the British Sailors would be injured. In all cases 
 where they are to be found, the Merchants are 
 willing to employ British Sailors in preference. 
 It is their interest to do so. Seven British Sailors 
 are supposed to be equal to twelve Lascars, and 
 though some give a different proportion, all agree 
 in making the difference prodigious. Thus the 
 loss of tonnage when Lascars are employed, more 
 than counterbalances the cheapness of their wages. 
 The Merchants are willing that a clause should be 
 introduced, enacting that, when they are to be 
 found, a part or the whole of the crew shall be 
 English, and that the certificates of the impossibi- 
 lity of finding them shall be given by the Court 
 of Directors, or the Council at the Presidencies in 
 India. If this Trade is placed under proper regu- 
 lations, it will aSbrd encouragement to a prodi- 
 gious number of our marines, it will greatly in- 
 crease their number, and in case of a new war, 
 will add materially to our maritime strength. 
 Upon the commencement of hostilities, Lascars 
 can be employed as substitutes, and without any 
 interruption to our Commerce, an immense num- 
 ber of hands can be given to the navy. This is an 
 advantage not to be derived from the Trade to 
 the West Indies, or any other Colonial Trade on 
 
 the
 
 '9 
 
 the Globe. The admission of India-built Ship?* 
 cannot be objected to, if it were for no other rea- 
 son than the present scarcity in this country of 
 timber for the navy. The deficiency begins to be 
 felt to a most alarming degree. But the wood of 
 which these ships are built is preferable to the best 
 oak, and it can be imported for all purposes free 
 of expence, in the form of a ship. In the opinion 
 of the Court of Directors, a grand national object 
 like this is to be sacrificed, because it would inter- 
 fere with selfish views ! \_A loud cry of hear ! hear! 
 from all parts of the Hov.se.'] During the war the 
 trade of foreigners to India has had to struggle 
 with considerable difficulties. Now that Peace has 
 arrived, we shall have not only our former rivals, 
 but France and Holland, and there will be few ob- 
 stacles to their being assisted by British capital, 
 if, through the unhappy influence of a few Mer- 
 chants in Leadenhall-street, it is not allowed to be 
 employed at home. France has all her Colonies 
 restored to her. There is no clause in the Treaty 
 to say that she shall not trade in the Indian Seas. 
 There could be none ; and the only way in which 
 we can prevent our Commerce being wrested from 
 us, is, to free it from every unreasonable restraint. 
 If foreigners are once allowed to get possession of 
 it, we may discover our error only in time to find 
 it irretrievable. Now we may secure to ourselves 
 this inexhaustible fund of wealth j but if we un- 
 
 C 2 unpre-
 
 20 
 
 precedentedly allow it to slip from us, it is gone 
 for ever. Whenever our Commerce is ruined, 
 we shall have no other consolation than that we 
 have preserved the sacred band of thirty Direc- 
 tors. It likewise ought never to be forgotten, 
 that all that leaves our scale falls into the scale of 
 France, so that the loss acts doubly against us. 
 
 I could say much more, but I think I have said 
 enough to prove the propriety of my Motion. I 
 do not wish the House to come to a decision now. 
 Let the whole business be submitted to a Com- 
 mittee, and sifted to the bottom. I wish that an 
 opportunity should be given to contradict my in- 
 ferences. It will then be seen whether we are not 
 unnecessarily weakening ourselves, and aggran- 
 dizing our enemies ; whether we are not doing 
 every thing to discourage Manufactures and to 
 cramp Trade ; whether we are not wantonly shut- 
 ting up sources of revenue and national strength;, 
 and whether, if these manoeuvres prevail, the sales 
 in Leadenhall-street themselves will not soon be 
 unattended. Sir, I am sure that this subject will 
 force itself on Parliament ; and that, though this 
 Motion be rejected, it will not determine the fate 
 of the measure. The sentiments of the people in 
 this country are not to be resisted ; they are a 
 people not to be kept in the dark, and who, when 
 facts are submitted to them, seldom fail to come 
 to a right conclusion. I have not a doubt, there- 
 fore,
 
 21 
 
 fore, that the necessity of this measure will soon 
 be universally felt, and that the Legislature will be 
 compelled to adopt it. 
 
 The worthy Baronet concluded by moving : 
 " That a Committee be appointed to take into 
 ** consideration the Papers laid upon the Table last 
 " Session of Parliament, relating to the Proceed- 
 '* ings with regard to the Trade between England 
 " and the East Indies, and to report their opinion 
 " thereon to the House." 
 
 The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER then 
 rose, and began by professing that no Member of 
 the House could possibly attach greater impor- 
 tance than he did to the subject now under dis- 
 cussion. He was ready, too, to admit, in the 
 most unequivocal terms, that the honourable Ba- 
 ronet who had brought forward the motion, was 
 actuated by the purest and most disinterested sense 
 of duty, while he allowed with pleasure that he 
 had conducted the discussion of a subject so ex- 
 tremely interesting with that candour and good 
 sense which could not fail to have excited univer- 
 sal approbation. The honourable Baronet had j 
 traced with great accuracy the history of the East 
 India Company, from the earliest period of its 
 establishment down to the present moment ; and 
 he had nothing on this head to object to the cor- 
 rectness of his details. It was unnecessary for 
 him. to reply to a variety of the arguments which 
 
 C 3 the
 
 . 
 
 22 
 
 the honourable Baronet had used, both because 
 they did not materially differ from the sentiments 
 he himself entertained, and because they were not 
 immediately connected with the subject before the 
 House. He should therefore confine himself wholly 
 to this subject, and in doing so he should first of 
 all advert to the provisions adopted in 1793, when 
 the House had renewed the Charter of the East 
 India Company. The Private Trade, it was to be 
 recollected, had not been publicly acknowledged 
 previous to that period, and it was in 1793 for 
 the first time that it became the subject of legisla- 
 tive enactment, that it was formally recognized, 
 and that special provisions were made for giving 
 new facilities to its extension. At this time the 
 Company were bound to furnish 3000 tons for 
 the importation of the articles embarked of this 
 Trade into this country. This allowance had hap- 
 pily been found to" be far from being equal to the 
 purpose in view ; but those who had framed this 
 Act, foreseeing that such an allowance would be 
 inadequate, had lodged in the hands of Commis- 
 sioners the power of enlarging it to that amount 
 which circumstances should require. The framers 
 of this Bill had indeed discovered throughout the 
 whole conduct of the business that knowledge, 
 that wisdom, that enlargement of mind, by which 
 they were so eminently distinguished ; and in the 
 provisions they had adopted, they had endea- 
 voured to give this Private Trade all those facilities 
 
 which
 
 which might at once be perfectly consistent with 
 the interests of the Company, while they afforded 
 -every reasonable degree of encouragement to the 
 efforts of private speculation. If, therefore, it 
 could be made to appear that the Court of Direc- 
 tors had not given this Trade all the facilities 
 which Parliament had wished and intended, a fair 
 ground of Parliamentary interference would be 
 opened, and he would be the last man in the 
 House to attempt to prevent such an interference. 
 lie had no bias whatever in favour of either of 
 the 'parties ; and all that he wished was a fair, 
 candid, and impartial consideration of the subject. 
 Agreeing most cordially with the honourable Ba- 
 ronet in the expediency of giving every possible 
 degree of facility to the Private Trade, he trusted 
 that if, from what had been 'stated, he should be 
 enabled to draw an opposite conclusion, the House 
 Avould be disposed to come to a corresponding de- 
 cision, and this trust, he was sure, he did not in- 
 dulge in vain. 
 
 Having said so much in the way of preliminary 
 observation, Jhe now proceeded more directly to 
 the discussion before the House. 
 
 The honourable Baronet had said that every 
 Governor in India, without exception, was in fa- 
 vour of the Private Trade, conducted on the prin* 
 ciples which he had laid down, but whence he had 
 been able to collect this, he professed himself un- 
 able to discover. Unquestionably it was true that 
 
 C 4 -11
 
 2 4 
 
 his noble friend, Marquis Wellesley, had, by the 
 exercise of his discretionary power, and by using 
 extraordinary exertions, employed several India- 
 built Ships, in 1798, for bringing to Europe the 
 articles of Private Trade. An order from the 
 Court of Directors was sent out by the next fleet 
 prohibiting the importation of any more goods in 
 that way, and in 1799 the practice was discontU 
 nucd. Since that time it was renewed, and he 
 had now the satisfaction of stating that the Court 
 of Directors had agreed to allow India Shipping 
 for the purposes of the ensuing season. They 
 had even gone farther ; and had consented that 
 the Shipping employed in the Red Sea should be 
 appropriated to the conveyance of the Private 
 Trade for 1803. . Thus they had not only agreed 
 to confirm the determination of Marquis Welles- 
 ley, but had expressed their willingness to employ 
 a large proportion of Shipping exclusively for the 
 benefit of the Private Trade, and were even en- 
 gaged to furnish additional Shipping, if the Trade 
 of 1803 should require a larger proportion than 
 that which they had assigned. 
 
 From this statement, therefore, the House would 
 perceive that the private trader would experience 
 no inconvenience, no loss, no disadvantage what- 
 ever, till 1 804, even if no new regulations were to 
 be adopted, while sufficient time was allowed to 
 form every regulation which might seem to be de- 
 manded by an impartial contemplation of the 
 
 whole
 
 2 5 
 
 whole of the circumstances connected with so in- 
 teresting a subject. This he now mentioned to 
 the House, both with a wish that the intentions of 
 the Court of Directors might be distinctly under- 
 stood, and that, after going through the statements 
 which he should be under the necessity of doing, 
 he might found upon it an argument in support of 
 the motion with which he meant to conclude, the 
 motion for the previous question. An inquiry 
 into a subject so intricate and so extensive as that 
 now before them, the House would not wish un- 
 necessarily to enter upon ; it was not his wish to 
 institute it but from the fullest conviction that it 
 was imperiously called for by circumstances. A 
 good deal of stress had been laid on the opinion 
 of a person, for whose opinion on this subject he 
 certainly did entertain the highest respect, and 
 whose opinion could not fail to have a very pow- 
 erful influence, both in the House and the country. 
 It was, however, only that morning that he had 
 read the letter of the right honourable Gentleman, 
 in which he not only did not intirely coincide 
 with the opinions expressed by the honourable 
 Baronet, but expressly asserted that the opinions 
 of the two opposite parties were founded in ex- 
 tremes, and recommended a middle course, with 
 which, with one exception, he most heartily con- 
 curred. He asserted that the opinion of the Court 
 of Directors was erroneous, but it did not appear 
 from the letter that he was prepared to adopt in 
 
 all
 
 2,6 
 
 all their latitude the opinions which the honourable 
 Baronet had adopted. Laying aside, however, 
 the consideration of authority from opinions how- 
 ever respectable, the first question now before the 
 House was, whether the Court of Directors had 
 given those facilities, which by the decision of 
 Parliament they were required to extend to the 
 Private Trade? He was ready to declare his opinion 
 on this point, and to state that they had not given 
 the facilities required. The next subject of con- 
 sideration was, whether or not there existed a just 
 expectation that these facilities would be extended 
 in future? In directing the attention of the House 
 to these points, he wished that the nature of the 
 trade in question might be fully understood by 
 the House. The capital employed in the trade, it 
 would be recollected, was not drawn from this 
 country, but was a capital composed of the sur- 
 plus of the salaries enjoyed by the different ser- 
 vants of the Company in India. This surplus was 
 either vested in the treasury of the Company, and 
 bills to the amount drawn on England, or it was 
 vested in goods which constituted the trade which 
 the House was at present considering. The 
 amount of this surplus had gradually increased, 
 and the investments in the Private Trade had ex- 
 perienced a proportional increase. In carrying on 
 this trade the honourable Baronet had contended 
 that British subjects were not allowed those ad- 
 vantages which were given to the foreign trader. 
 
 On
 
 On examination, however, he was convinced that 
 this assertion would be found to be groundless. 
 To ascertain this it was only necessary to attend a 
 little to the manner in which the trade was con- 
 ducted. No persons were, it was true, allowed to 
 engage in it who were not licensed by the Com- 
 pany, and they were prevented from buying goods 
 formed of the choicest materials, and manufactured 
 in the richest manner. Saltpetre too formed an 
 exception to the articles which they were permit- 
 ted in the nrst instance to purchase. But the 
 House would consider that this exclusion with 
 regard to fine goods, referred only to the period 
 prior to the supply of the ships of the Company 
 with these articles. After this supply was obtained, 
 the market was open to the private traders, and 
 the previous exclusion ceased to operate. They 
 might then purchase, not merely the rough part 
 of the goods, but had free access to those of the 
 richest materials and the most costly manufacture. 
 With the exceptions he had specified, every other 
 branch of manufactures, and every ether article 
 of produce, were within the range of their pur- 
 chase. Such was the situation in which the pri- 
 vate traders were placed, and he knew no diffe- 
 rence with respect to foreigners, except that it was 
 not necessary for them to be licensed previous to 
 their engaging in the Private Trade. They en- 
 joyeH no other privilege which was not participated 
 by British subjects, and therefore he was at a loss 
 
 tQ
 
 28 
 
 to conceive what these advantages were which the 
 honourable Baronet had described to be in the 
 possession of foreigners. But here the honour- 
 able Baronet had stated an object to be gained by 
 the Private Trade, and a most important national 
 object it was, an object no less than that of facili- 
 tating, by means* of ships built in India, the supply 
 of timber for the commercial and royal navy of 
 this country. 
 
 The honourable Gentleman had dwelt very 
 strongly on this point, and had been extremely 
 anxious to shew, that there was no other means of 
 so effectually promoting this great object. It was 
 his duty, in answer to this, to state, that the 
 Court of Directors had expressed in the strongest 
 terms their anxiety to give every possible facility 
 to any measure calculated for the advantage of the 
 royal navy ; they were even willing to engage, and 
 to bind themselves to the fulfilment of their en- 
 gagement, to use every effort to cheapen the price 
 of ships, if any* should be built for the use -of the 
 navy, by loading those ships on their own account 
 to England, and deducting the amount of their 
 freight from their original cost, in order to render 
 them by so much the cheaper to the public. The 
 price of ship timber within a few years had in- 
 creased in a most extraordinary manner, and every 
 plan for effecting a reduction was deserving of the 
 most serious attention. With respect to the use 
 of ships built in India for the Private Trade, he had 
 
 to
 
 29 
 
 * 
 
 to remark, that this was one of the cases in which 
 the opinions on the subject proceeded to extremes. 
 It was the opinion of his noble Friend the Gover- 
 nor General of India, and of a right honourable 
 Gentleman whose sentiments he had already al- 
 luded to, that ships built in India should be em- 
 ployed in the trade; and this was the point in 
 which a difference of opinion might arise, while 
 it was as strenuously maintained, in Mr. Grant's 
 report, that the trade should be exclusively con- 
 fined to British ships. He had now, however, 
 a high degree of pleasure in being enabled to state 
 to the House that the Directors had, on a full and 
 serious consideration of the subject, agreed that 
 either British ships or those built in India, if at- 
 tended with equal convenience, should be employed, 
 their only objection being with regard to the price. 
 In calculating the comparative expence of British 
 and India-built ships, the honourable Gentleman 
 had founded his calculations on a state of war; 
 but, was it fair to assume, that during a period of 
 peace this expence would not be diminished? It 
 certainly was not; and this was another reason, 
 in, his mind, for opposing the motion of the ho- 
 nourable Gentleman, that time might be allowed 
 to try the experiment for two years, for which the 
 provision already made afforded a favourable op- 
 portunity. By recommending delay, he trusted 
 that he should not be thought indifferent to the 
 importance of the question before the House. The 
 
 * trade
 
 I 
 
 3 
 
 tirade was unquestionably of very high coi/scquence. 
 While the trade opened a channel for the impor- 
 tation of the branches of Indian manufactures, 
 and the articles of Indian produce, which the Com- 
 pany had not the means of introducing on their 
 own account, and while it enabled those of the 
 Company's servants who had a certain portion of 
 capital to dispose of, to dispose of it in an advan- 
 tageous manner, it on the other hand presented 
 new openings for the commerce, and new encou- 
 ragements to the manufactures of the Mother 
 Country. It was a trade not only attended with 
 great advantages, but accompanied with little risk. 
 It was a trade which took little capital from this 
 country, which in its consequences was calculated 
 to make London the emporium of the trade of India. 
 At present, indeed, London might be in some de- 
 gree considered in this light, but by the new faci- 
 lities which this trade would give to commerce in 
 general, it would render London almost the sole 
 mart of the whole Indian commerce. He felt un- 
 willing to follow the honourable Baronet through 
 all the strictures he had made on the Report of the 
 Court of Directors, but he thought it necessary to 
 advert to a few of the points discussed in the Re- 
 port itself. What was said by Mr. Grant on the 
 consequences which would flow from the employ- 
 ment of Lascars in the navigation of ships coming 
 from India, appeared to his mind extremely feeble 
 and inconclusive. That foreign seamen might, 
 
 without
 
 3 1 
 
 without the smallest impropriety, occasionally 
 come in aid of British sailors, could not possibly 
 be denied ; but that there was any reasonable fear 
 of the foreigners supplanting the British subjects, 
 was a proposition to which he could not accede. 
 It was impossible withlB [east regard to reason 
 and experience to imagi it, known as the su- 
 
 perior skill and intrepidity of British seamen were, 
 their services would be refused for the services 
 of another description of men, whose qualifica- 
 tions were confessedly inferior in every thing con- 
 nected with their profession. On the subject of 
 colonization, he was not equally prepared to agree 
 with the honourable Baronet ; and though perhaps 
 he did not view the danger from this source in a 
 light so strong as that exhibited in the Report, yet 
 he was ready to confess, that it struck him as a 
 matter of no small consideration. He thought it 
 an object of high importance to prevent an increase 
 of settlers in India, and to discourage every plan 
 which was designed to increase them. He admitted 
 that the cases of America and our settlements in 
 India were not parallel, but at the same time he 
 thought that our experience in America ought at 
 least to have the effect of teaching us caution. On 
 the contemplation of the whole question, he did 
 not think that the honourable Baronet had made 
 out such a case as could be considered by the House 
 as a full and fair ground for instituting an enquiry. 
 He had, he could with truth assure the House, no 
 
 bias
 
 3* 
 
 bias on his mind which would lead him to oppose 
 such an enquiry, if it really appeared to him to be 
 necessary ; and till the Court of Directors had 
 shewn a disposition to grant what was due to the 
 interest of the Private Trade, he felt a strong dis- 
 position to give his su|^| jkto the motion. By say- 
 ing he was inclined tof ^>port the motion, he did 
 not mean to refer to the specific motion of the ho- 
 nourable Baronet, but he was ready to support any 
 fair proposition for compelling the Court of Direc- 
 tors to comply with the wishes of Parliament as 
 expressed in the act of 1793, to grant to the Pri- 
 vate Trade every necessary degree of facility. But 
 seeing a disposition existing in the Court of Direc- 
 tors to come to an amicable arrangement, seeing 
 the great inconveniences which might attend the 
 investigation of a subject so extremely complicated 
 and extensive, the end of which too it was quite 
 impossible to ascertain, and seeing that from the 
 provisions adopted for the next two years no in- 
 convenience could arise to the Private Merchants 
 from a short delay, he felt it his duty to move the 
 previous question. 
 
 Mr. JOHNSTONE said, that if there ever had been 
 discovered any disposition on the part of the Court 
 of Directors to agree to an amicable arrangement 
 of the dispute with the Private Merchants, the 
 present motion would have been unnecessary, and 
 
 consideration
 
 33 
 
 consideration of the House. The object of the 
 motion was merely to put to fair trial the plan 
 which the Marquis Wellefley had sanctioned, and 
 acted upon in his conduct of the Private Trade. 
 But if, as the Right Honourable Gentleman has 
 stated, this plan is to be fully and fairly put to the 
 test for three years, this was all that was asked for, 
 and the Private Merchants would be perfectly sa- 
 tisfied with such a proposal. Was, however, any 
 such disposition apparent on the face of the papers 
 on the table ? It certainly was not, and hence had 
 originated the necessity of the motion. The Right 
 Honourable Gentleman, when mentioning the sub- 
 ject of the concession offered by the Court of Di- 
 rectors, did not seem to him perfectly to under- 
 stand the nature of the concession to be granted. 
 He had thought that the ships in the Red Sea 
 would be amply sufficient for every purpose of the . 
 Private Trade in 1803 ; but for his part he could 
 not help being of a different opinion, and he would 
 state to the House on what this opinion was 
 founded. The House would recollect that 40,000 
 tons of shipping had been originally employed in 
 conveying the division of the Indian army up the 
 Red Sea. Of these 20,000 tons had already re- 
 turned to different ports in India, and of the other 
 half that remained a number of ships were disabled, 
 while others were discharged, and would come 
 home in the ensuing season. So that taking this 
 view of the subject, he was afraid that out of the 
 
 D 20,000
 
 34 
 
 2d,ooo tons which were remaining, and might be 
 appropriated for the use of the Private Trade in 
 1803, there would not be a number of disposeable 
 ships sufficient to bring home the property of that 
 season. He wished to know, then, if such a defi- 
 ciency should exist, and if the ships destined for 
 this special service were inadequate, individuals 
 would be permitted to send home their property 
 in other ships ? 
 
 The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER in ex- 
 planation stated, that the Court of Directors wish- 
 ed to have it distinctly understood, that if con* 
 trary to every reasonable expectation, the shipping 
 employed in the Red Sea should not be fufficient 
 to bring home all the private property for the year 
 1803, they would instruct their agents in India to 
 provide whatever additional shipping might be 
 wanted. He added, that the provision in favour 
 of the Private Trade was for two, not three sea- 
 sons. 
 
 Mr. JOHNSTONE professed himself obliged to the 
 Right Honourable Gentleman for his explanation, 
 but could not help expressing his sorrow, that in- 
 stead of three, the provision in behalf of the Pri. 
 vate Merchants was only for two seasons. There 
 seemed to be a wish among the enemies of the re- 
 gulations in favour of the Private Trade, to repre- 
 sent the plan now so strongly resisted by the Court 
 
 of
 
 35 
 
 of Directors as altogether new; but he was anxious 
 to press on the House that the plan was not new, 
 but had been pursued in several seasons since 1 795, 
 when the Governor-General of India had acted 
 upon it, by sending home private'property in ships 
 built in the country. After the trial it had already 
 undergone, he defied any one of its most violent 
 opponents to point out a single inconvenience that 
 had arisen from it, or was likely to arise from its 
 further continuance. It had received the support 
 of every one of the Company's servants in India, 
 who not merely saw no bad effects resulting from 
 it, but had seen and acknowledged the beneficial 
 effects it was calculated to produce. This had been 
 the decided opinion of Mr. Udney, who, for his 
 eminent services, was raised to be a Member of the 
 Supreme Council. Mr. Myers, who had been many ^ 
 years Accountant-General, had viewed it in the 
 same light, and received the honour of a vote of 
 thanks for his good conduct from the Court of 
 Directors. The Right Honourable Gentleman had 
 remarked, that Mr. Dundas's letter insisted a good 
 deal on the supposed opinion of that Right Ho- 
 nourable Gentleman, that the sentiments of both 
 parties were in extremes, and that he was desirous 
 of following a middle course in the adjustment of 
 the dispute. But if the Right Honourable Gen- 
 tleman would take the trouble to examine the 
 letter more attentively, he would find, that Mr. 
 Dundas was there not alluding to the question be- 
 
 D z fore
 
 fore the House, but to the opinions of two parties* 
 one of whom wished the Trade to be wholly laid 
 open, and the other that it should be subjected to 
 still closer restraints; These were the opinions 
 which he had declared to be in extremes ; and he 
 was for a middle course, that of Lord Wellesley, 
 which was neither more nor less than the plan con- 
 tended for by the Private Traders. His approba- 
 tion of the plan he had fully expressed, and he had 
 
 never varied in the smallest degree from his ori- 
 
 
 
 ginal opinion. 
 
 There was another point in the Right Honour- 
 able Gentleman's speech to which he begged leave 
 to advert. The Right Honourable Gentleman 
 seemed to think that the Private Trade was solely 
 a trade of remittance, and that the capital was 
 made up of the savings of the salaries of the dif- 
 ferent servants of the Company in India. This 
 was, however, an exceedingly erroneous idea of 
 the nature and extent of this important branch of 
 Trade. He believed that his statement would not 
 be greatly deficient in accuracy, if he estimated 
 the whole amount of these savings to be a million 
 and a half yearly. Now it was known that the 
 Company had bills drawn on Europe to this 
 amount, and thus the whole of the sum, which 
 was to form the capital of the Private Trade, was 
 completely absorbed. The truth was, that the fa- 
 cilities of navigation had opened a variety of new 
 channels, and the East Indies would have to re- 
 ceive,
 
 57 
 
 Ccive, at no remote period, a larger balance in 
 specie. The private Trade, independent of all the 
 concerns of the Company, could not now be esti- 
 mated at less than an annual sum of from four \J 
 millions and a half to five millions sterling. It 
 had been asked, by the Right Honourable Gentle- 
 man, what were the advantages which foreigners 
 possessed in carrying on this Trade above British 
 subjects? Undoubtedly, if the plan of Marquis 
 Wellesley was to be acted upon, and if the private 
 property of British traders was to be sent home 
 in ships of the country instead of ships sent out 
 by the Company, foreigners would possess no ad- 
 vantage. But, on the other hand, if the plan was ^ 
 given up, and if the Company were to send out 
 ships to bring home private property, and if they 
 were to be allowed to assort and manage the car- 
 goes as heretofore, these checks went as certainly 
 to put the British Merchant in a far worse situa- 
 tion than that in which the foreigner was placed. /^ 
 
 On the subject of colonization he had only a 
 few words to offer ; and though it might seem to 
 contradict the sentiments he had been endeavour- 
 ing to support, he had no hesitation in saying, 
 that he was decidedly hostile to any system which 
 would attempt to colonize our Eastern possessions. 
 Our Empire in the East was originally founded on 
 fear, and if individuals spread themselves over the 
 country, the respect of the natives would be di- 
 minished, and the European character, from fami- 
 
 D 3 liarity.
 
 3* 
 
 liarity, might be degraded in the eyes of the na- 
 tives. But he had the satisfaction to reflect that 
 such a system was altogether useless. The only 
 use of Europeans in India was to act as the me- 
 dium of communication betwixt the Merchants 
 who were the consumers here, and the Natives by 
 whom the articles of commerce were produced. 
 So far was he, therefore, from wishing to increase 
 the number of Europeans in India, that he was 
 convinced the number might be less than it was, 
 even according to the present arrangement. The 
 provisions made in favour of the Private Trade 
 for the next two years, were important and satis- 
 factory', but he was quite at a loss to know what 
 course was to be followed in the third year. If it 
 was intended that the same system should be con- 
 tinued, this would be a source of confidence to the 
 Private Merchants ; but if, on the other hand, it 
 was merely an indulgence for two years, it could 
 not fail to give rise to very great alarm. The 
 Merchants, once deprived of confidence, and al- 
 lowed to carry on their trade only under vexatious 
 restrictions, it was easy to foresee what course they 
 would be disposed to adopt* Driven out of a 
 share of an advantageous Trade, by the narrow 
 spirit of monopoly in this country, they had only 
 the alternative of going to some free port on the 
 Continent, and prosecute, without molestation, 
 their commercial pursuits. They had only to go 
 to Antwerp, procure the necessary pass, sail for 
 
 Calcutta,
 
 39 
 
 Calcutta, and take in with full liberty that cargo 
 which they were prevented from loading in the 
 ships of avowed British Subjects. 
 
 In answer to the Honourable Gentleman's en- 
 quiry about the mode of management to be adopted 
 after the expiration of the two years, for which 
 provision is already made, the Chancellor of the 
 Exchequer read a series of propositions from the 
 Court of Directors, which they offered as the basis 
 of a system of good understanding and harmony 
 betwixt them, and those interested in the private 
 trade. They were as follow : 
 J. That in addition to the quantity of three thou- 
 sand tons of shipping, now annually allotted 
 to the exports of' individuals from India, 
 three, four, or five thousand tons more, or as 
 much as may be wanted, shall be assigned. 
 
 II. That the shipping to be thus annually employed 
 
 shall be wholly applied to the use of Private 
 Traders, and shall neither be destined nor de- 
 tained for political or warlike services in 
 India; but sail from thence directly for the 
 port of London at fixed periods, within the 
 fair weather season. 
 
 III. That all commodities of the produce of the 
 
 Continent or of the British territories in 
 India, shall be permitted to be laden on those 
 ships ; excepting only piece goods, which 
 shall not be laden, unless by special licence 
 D 4 from.
 
 40 
 
 from the Company, or their Governments 
 abroad j and saltpetre, which any of the Go- 
 vernments in India shall have the power to 
 prohibit or restrain. 
 
 IV. That the goods to be exported OH private ac- 
 count, be, as now, received into the Compa- 
 ny's warehouses in India ; and that the same 
 care be taken in afforting them into cargoes, 
 in due proportions of light and heavy goods, 
 according to the deliveries into the ware- 
 houses, as is observed in forming the Compa- 
 ny's own cargoes. 
 
 V. That these goods shall be brought to the Com- 
 
 pany's warehouses in London, and thence to 
 their sales, in the regular order, subject to the 
 charge of 3 per cent, now allowed to the 
 Company, for landing, warehousing and sel- 
 ling private goods. 
 
 VI. That when the private goods provided for ex- 
 
 portation from India shall not serve to fill all 
 the ships sent out for them, the Company shall 
 put gruff goods into those ships on their own 
 account. 
 
 VII. That no person shall be permitted to embark 
 in this Trade as principal or agent, except 
 such as may lawfully engage therein accord- 
 ing to the provisions of the Act of the 33d 
 George III. cap. 52. 
 
 VIII. That the ships to be employed in this service 
 shall be built for the purpose, either in Great 
 
 Britain
 
 41 
 
 Britain or India, the Company contracting 
 with those who shall undertake to build or be 
 the owners of them, for their service during 
 eight voyages ; and that the construction of 
 them shall be agreeable to a plan already 
 adopted by the Company in England, for ships 
 intended to carry their own gruff goods. 
 
 IX. That in order to ascertain the rates at which 
 
 ships of this construction built of teak can 
 be obtained for six, seven, or eight voyages 
 certain in India, the Court will authorize 
 their Governments there immediately to ad- 
 vertise for such a number of ships of the above 
 description, as are likely to be required, and 
 to engage them for the Company, provided 
 the freight demanded shall not exceed the 
 rate of those lately contracted for in Eng- 
 land. 
 
 X. Or ships already built in India may be tendered 
 
 to the Governments in India for two or more 
 voyages, for the purpose of carrying the Pri- 
 vate Trade, if they shall not exceed the rate 
 of peace freight actually paid by the Com- 
 pany for ships of the like description this sea- 
 son ; and provided they are in all respects ap- 
 proved by their master attendants, or other 
 proper officers in India. Provided that no- 
 thing herein contained shall be construed to 
 make void any contract or agreement into 
 
 which
 
 . 42 
 
 which the Company may have already enter- 
 ed ; or to prevent the Company from taking 
 up hereafter or contracting to build, ships in 
 Great Britain, on equal or more advantageous 
 terms than those of India. 
 
 XL That the above ships shall be re-let by the 
 Company without profit, to such Merchants 
 as may be disposed to export goods to India, 
 or to import goods from India, as above de- 
 scribed ; charging to the exporter and im- 
 porter respectively such proportion only of 
 the total freight for the voyage as shall be 
 due, according to the proportion established 
 by the- act of the 33d George III. cap. 52. 
 
 Mr. JOHNSTONS thought these propositions quite 
 unsatisfactory, and maintained that they differed in 
 nothing from the original resolution of the Court 
 of Directors, but in this, that the ships bringing 
 home private property from India might be dis- 
 patched from India, whereas, by the original pro- 
 positions, these ships were all to be sent from Eng- 
 land. He canvassed the propositions at some 
 length, and finished by declaring his conviction, 
 that if the Private Trade was to encounter such 
 severe checks, and labour under such vexatious 
 regulations, the Surplus Trade would go out of 
 our hands, and be carried on under Danish, French, 
 and other foreign colours. 
 
 The
 
 43 
 
 The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, on the 
 tfther hand, urged that these propositions were 
 merely designed to form the basis of an arrange- 
 ment ; but this by no means precluded any subse- 
 quent modifications. He maintained also that the 
 grand difference between the present and the for- 
 mer propositions was, that the present allowed 
 private property to be brought home in India- 
 built ships ; whereas the former resolutions denied 
 this indulgence. 
 
 Mr. WALLACE said, the statement of his Right 
 Honourable Friend (the Chancellor of the Ex- 
 chequer) had reduced the question to a very nar- 
 row point. The proposition of the Honourable 
 Baronet was evidently calculated, through the me- 
 dium of a Committee purporting to examine 
 merely the claims of Private Traders, to introduce 
 a discussion relative to every part of the Indian 
 affairs, which should be guarded against with the 
 strongest jealousy at this time, particularly when 
 men's minds were warmed, when so many wild 
 notions were entertained, when the most extrava- 
 gant speculations were indulged respecting the 
 India Company, which struck at the root of that 
 establishment. The principle upon which he should 
 vote in opposition to the Honourable Baronet's 
 proposal was, that he held it to be a direct attack 
 upon the Charter of the India Company, without 
 any plea of justice or necessity. This might ren- 
 der
 
 44 
 
 der him liable to the charge of inconsistency, in 
 consequence of his conduct at the Board of Con- 
 trol ; but he wished to explain the nature of that 
 conduct. That Board had taken up the subject 
 of Private Trade ; but scarcely had they entered 
 into the investigation, when the Honourable Ba- 
 ronet moved for the Papers on the table, which in- 
 duced the Board to suspend their proceedings, 
 (perceiving, from that motion, that it was intend- 
 ed to introduce the question to Parliament) in or- 
 der that it might come free and unfettered before 
 the House. The right of the Board of Control 
 to interfere in this question, he understood, had 
 been doubted, on the ground that it was a com- 
 mercial question ; but, from the Act of 1793,11 
 was manifested that the Board of Control was 
 invested with powers sufficient to justify their in- 
 terference in the arrangements of a subject of so 
 much national importance as that before the House, 
 though it excluded them from meddling with the 
 commercial concerns of the India Company. 
 
 The opinion of Mr. Dundas, which, upon all oc- 
 casions, was entitled to respect and reverence, was 
 confidently quoted in this discussion, but, in his 
 judgment, the opinion of that Right Honourable 
 Gentleman went to an extent for which no reason 
 was advanced, or he believed could be advanced to 
 warrant. He for one was not prepared to go so 
 far, though he admitted, in a great degree, the 
 claims of the English Merchants resident in India. 
 
 From
 
 45 
 
 From the Papers on the table he drew his 
 cipal argument against the motion of the Honour- 
 able Baronet ; for it appeared, that the India Com- 
 pany could not be bound to allow the private 
 trading at all beyond the amount of that settled 
 by the Act of 1793, unless it was intended glar- 
 ingly to entrap their Charter. In fact, however 
 the motion might be disguised, or dressed up, it 
 would tend to put the spirit of the Act of 1793 
 in opposition to its express letter ; and to intro- 
 duce a question between public faith and public 
 expediency. The principles upon which that Act 
 was founded, he stated to be, to procure the mar- 
 ket of India to the merchandize and manufactures 
 of the British Empire exclusively ; to maintain 
 the influence and power of the India Company as 
 interwoven with the power of the country, by se- 
 curing to them alone the communication between 
 India and Europe. At that time a Private Trade 
 did exist, under the patronage of the Company, 
 but in a crippled state. It was enlarged, and 
 wisely, for many reasons. From the state of tim- 
 ber in India, and the demand here, it was desirable 
 that India-built ships might be allowed to import 
 it into Great Britain. It was also desirable, as the 
 Marquis of Wellesley had so laudably endeavoured, 
 to exclude foreign influence, to prevent the effects 
 of foreign intrigue, and the aggrandizement of 
 foreign power in India. That was the policy which 
 saved India from the machinations of France. 
 
 Now ,
 
 46 
 
 Now that by the Treaty of Peace the French estab- 
 lishments were restored, it was more necessary 
 than ever to persevere in that system j and by 
 giving facility to the Trade of India with this 
 country, we should make the foreign factories 
 Scarce worth maintaining. 
 
 With respect to the danger apprehended from 
 Colonization in India, it was the most chimerical 
 and absurd that could be imagined. Was it rea- 
 sonable to entertain any such apprehensions in a 
 country under the direction of a Government so 
 powerful, and supported by an immense army ? 
 He shewed that the extension of the Private Trade 
 would be for the advantage of the India Com- 
 pany, by stating, that in 1798 the profit on the 
 India Company's own Trade was but 2!. 6s. 9d. 
 per cent, whereas in 1 800 it amounted to 35!. As 
 to the representation, that the report which the 
 Lascars might give in India of their British con- 
 nections in Wapping, tending to subvert the Bri- 
 tish dominions in India, or to reduce the British 
 character, it was too ridiculous to deserve a seri- 
 ous answer. He was not inclined to join with those 
 who supposed that these Lascars would ever be 
 preferred to British seamen, for one obvious rea- 
 son, that they were not so cheap to the Merchant ; 
 and it was unnecessary to add, less skilful. Indeed 
 it was not by any means probable that British 
 Merchants would prefer any foreign seaman to 
 those of his own country, would ungratefully re- 
 fuse
 
 47 
 
 fuse employment to him who had exposed himself 
 to all the toils and dangers of war, to give peace 
 to his country. If, however, it should so happen, 
 it would be for the Legislature to interfere, and 
 to take care that every nursery for our sailors 
 should be preserved ; that the marine of foreigners 
 should not be advanced by British capital ; that 
 Antwerp, a port so much talked of as likely to par- 
 take of the Trade to India, should not receive that 
 wealth which might hereafter be employed against 
 us, by that power which God and Nature had to 
 a certain degree made our enemy, (a cry of hear ! 
 hear!} and enable them to contest with us the 
 sovereignty of the seas. He applauded the dispo- 
 sition manifested by the India Company to adjust 
 the dispute with the Private Traders, and hoped 
 the plan proposed for the two ensuing years would 
 prove a satisfactory experiment, and serve as the 
 basis of some future arrangement, calculated to 
 call forth all the energy of commerce in that de- 
 partment, and to advantage the country. If the 
 Honourable Gentleman who supported the motion 
 of the Honourable Baronet, had examined the 
 state of the India Trade, he would have found, 
 that the shipping in the Red Sea, consisting of 
 20,000 tons, was likely to be more than sufficient 
 for the proposed importation of the India produce 
 in Private Trade in 1803, when it was recollected, 
 that the whole tonnage of Bengal, during the last 
 season, did not exceed 7,000 tons, and yet the 
 
 Marquis
 
 43 
 
 Marquis of Wellesley will be authorized, if neces- 
 sary, to employ more shipping ; therefore all the 
 suggestions which had been thrown out as to the 
 probability of foreigners partaking of our Indian 
 commerce, from want of shipping of our own to 
 import the surplus of India produce, was entirely 
 groundless. With these views of the subject, he 
 would ever give his most decided opposition to 
 any proposal endangering the establishment of 
 the India Company, convinced that its existence, 
 through the medium of a well regulated mono- 
 poly, was essential to the security of the state ; 
 and that the transfer of the authority it possessed 
 to the Government, would give it a degree of 
 overawing power, that would render the existence 
 of the Constitution itself extremely precarious. 
 
 Sir FRANCIS BARING (a Director) rose, he said, 
 very reluctantly to obtrude himself upon the at- 
 tention of the House, on a question which seemed 
 already to have been so ably discussed by the Right 
 Honourable Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Ex- 
 chequer) and the honourable Member who spoke 
 last. But upon a subject of so much importance, 
 and in which he was personally and officially in- 
 terested, he hoped the House would indulge him 
 in a few short observations. 
 
 The honourable Baronet who introduced this 
 question called it a commercial one, and materially 
 involving the trading rights of this country, but 
 
 he
 
 49 
 
 be tamld beg leave to term it a question in sup- 
 port of the claims of an illegitimate description of 
 traders against the interests and chartered rights 
 of a legal and legitimate body, whose interests and 
 whose objects must of necessity participate in those 
 of the Empire ; for> in fact, under the former de- 
 scription only could he estimate those men in 
 India from whom originated this question. They 
 were children rising against their parents, servants 
 labouring to subvert the interests of their masters. 
 Creatures who owed every thing they possessed 
 to the patronage, protection, and support of that 
 very Company, whose legal authority and legiti- 
 mate interest they now sought to subvert, under 
 the pretence of vindicating the commercial rights 
 of British Subjects ; but in reality with a view to 
 convert this country into a colony, and India into 
 a mother country, and to lay the foundation of 
 future subversion to the institution of the India 
 Company, which the Legislature of this Country 
 had so long cherished and supported, on the ful- 
 lest conviction of its importance to the strength, 
 wealth and prosperity of the British Empire. For A- 
 who, he would ask, were those reputable authori- 
 ties, from whom the honourable Baronet who in- 
 troduced this Motion, derived his information on 
 this subject, but the Servants of the Company in 
 India, who owed every thing they possessed to 
 that Company, and their correspondents in this 
 country, conniving with them to wrest, if possible, 
 
 E a
 
 5 
 
 all the advantage of India Commerce out of the 
 hands of its legal possessors ? 
 
 The honourable Baronet had termed the Court 
 of Directors a Court of Aristocracy, whose autho- 
 rity was as dangerous to the true interests of the 
 Company, as it was to those of this Country, in 
 relation to the possession of India. But he begged 
 leave to vindicate the Directors from such a charge 
 as one of that respectable body, instead of as- 
 suming so high and mighty an authority as the 
 honourable Baronet was pleased to attribute, he 
 felt indeed a very humble sense of his situation, 
 and regarded it only as one in which he partici- 
 pated the duty of watching over the interests and 
 commercial rights of Traders to India, residents 
 in this country, and in the exercise of which duty 
 he and his colleagues were bound by the letter of 
 an Act of Parliament. 
 
 Upon the introduction of the Act of 1793 for 
 renewing the Charter of the India Company, a 
 principal object avowed by Parliament was the 
 promotion of the interest of the Manufacturers of 
 Great Britain and Ireland ; and on the part of the 
 Company it was earnestly desired that the parties 
 interested would come forward and state what 
 they wanted, and even what they wished, in order 
 that every reasonable claim might be complied 
 with to their satisfaction. The consequence of 
 which was, that a stipulation was brought for- 
 ward by the Right Honourable Gentleman who 
 
 introduced
 
 5' 
 
 introduced that Bill, (Mr. Dundas) a man than 
 whom none was more fully competent to frame a 
 Bill upon that particular subject, which required 
 'that 3000 tons of shipping should be taken up by 
 the Company for the purpose of carrying the 
 Private Trade to India, and bringing back produce 
 in return. To this the Directors fully agreed, and 
 even declared their own indifference as to the na- 
 tion of which such ships should be, whether Irish 
 or English ; but if any description of ships was to 
 be proposed, subversive of the principle which 
 was to make the River Thames the medium of 
 reception, or on board of which British Seamen 
 were not to be the navigators, the Directors were 
 prepared decidedly to reject. Any departure from 
 this principle would have been injurious to the in- 
 terests of the British Navy. But if this stipu- 
 lation was not made, the persons in India, from 
 whom the present question originated, would have 
 decidedly rejected British Ships, have preferred 
 their own teak vessels, and thus, instead of Com- 
 merce being confined to the Thames for promot- 
 ing the interests of British Manufactures, such 
 ships might have made use of them to carry on a 
 Trade with all the ports in Europe. 
 
 Such was the conduct of the Servants of the 
 Company in India, who have made their fortunes 
 under the protection of the Company. But what 
 was the pretence of those persons in employing 
 India-built vessels instead of British ? That they 
 
 E 2 could
 
 5* 
 
 could supply Europe with the produce of India 
 upon terms considerably cheaper. But what was 
 the proof on the contrary ? Why that Mr. Pellier, 
 a French Agent, had offered the Company to pay 
 a price for their commodities on the spot adequate 
 to ten per cent, over and above the investment 
 price, and to convey them to Europe in French 
 bottoms. How then could any individual in the 
 Private Trade pretend that he could supply France 
 with India commodities cheaper than the India 
 Company ? 
 
 With respect to the nature of the homeward 
 India Trade, it was, he said, divided under three 
 distinct heads, viz. First, the Foreign Trade. Se- 
 condly, the Private Trade to the River Thames. 
 Thirdly, the Company's own Trade. By the last 
 retuwis at the India House, it appeared, that the 
 Private Trade had increased within the last two 
 years two or 300,000!. ; the foreign in a still greater 
 proportion ; but it was uniformly found that the 
 Trade of the Company decreased, as that of the 
 Private Traders advanced ; and consequently their 
 commercial interests were injured, not by fo- 
 reigners, but by their own servants. The Foreign 
 Trade, in fact, had increased of late years more 
 than ever but with this difference, that not a 
 single article of foreign manufacture was con- 
 sumed in our India Settlements, silver only being 
 the article in exchange for the commodities of the 
 country, while British Manufactures were the only 
 
 articles
 
 articles of European consumption, and taken in 
 exchange for the produce brought home to Eng- 
 land. The Portuguese in particular, Sir Francis 
 said, only last year had carried out specie to the 
 amount of 400,000!. and had exported India goods 
 in return considerably short of that amount, and 
 this he believed to be really Portuguese, and not 
 British property. 
 
 With respect to Shipping, he begged leave to state 
 the reason why the growth of ship-timber in this 
 country was not great was, because there was not a 
 competition sufficient for its encouragement. The '* 
 Navy Board held out no adequate inducement for 
 country gentlemen to grow their timber to an ex- 
 traordinary size, and therefore they cut it down 
 only at that size, when by competition between 
 the Navy and the Private Ship-Builders they were 
 sure of a good price ; but he was convinced the > 
 
 / T^ 
 
 proposed importation of bringing large ships from 
 India to supply our Navy, was to place the Eng- 
 lish country gentlemen in a still worse state than 
 before, with regard to the growth of timber. 
 
 With respect to the employment of Lascars in 
 preference to British Seamen, such an idea he be- 
 lieved was too ridiculous to require refutation ; 
 but with respect to that description of seamen 
 brought to this country by the homeward-bound 
 ships from India, the difference was this : the 
 India Company alone had provided for them an 
 establishment, affording them maintenance and 
 E 3 protection.
 
 54 . 
 
 protection, and insured them return to their na- 
 tive country; whereas it was the interest, and 
 seemingly the object of the Private Trader to in- 
 duce them to desert, and then abandon them to 
 their fate, insomuch that of the number of Las- 
 cars employed by Private Traders, not twenty in 
 a hundred got back to India in such a state of 
 health as to be able ever afterwards to earn a live- 
 lihood : that it was true that the Company were 
 in some instances obliged to employ Lascars them- 
 selves, but that was owing to the misconduct of 
 these Private Traders, who constantly enticed 
 away the British Seamen from the Europe ships. 
 The Directors of the India Company acted on the 
 whole of this business, not from any impulse of 
 private interest, but from a sense of public duty ; 
 on that ground, they bowed to no man, however 
 high his rank or station, and therefore he could 
 not admit the charge imputed to them by the Ho- 
 nourable Baronet, of having acted from principles 
 of self-interest upon self-elected authority. 
 
 The persons from whom the representations of 
 the Honourable Baronet originated though they 
 were viewed by the discernment of Lord Corn- 
 wallis in a just point of view, as individuals whose 
 private interests were opposed to those of the 
 Company, to whom they owed every thing, and 
 as such kept at a distance by that noble Lord 
 were, on the contrary, taken to the arms of Mar- 
 quis Welleslcy, favoured by his confidence, and by 
 
 him
 
 55 
 
 him supported, in direct opposition to the interests v 
 of the Company. And what was the conduct of 
 those very men in the last year ? Why, that act- 
 ing as Private Traders, their investments being 
 on board private ships, which sailed singly, they 
 reached India long before the Company's fleet, 
 which was obliged to await the completion of all 
 their cargoes, and sail in company with convoy, 
 by which means the private ships had not only 
 forestalled the markets there before their arrival, 
 but bought up new freights of India goods for re- 
 mittance to England, to forestall them there also. ys. 
 For whenever permission was granted for the 
 India-built Ships to come to Europe, the Private 
 Merchants would not load upon the Company's 
 ships, by which means their tonnage remained un- 
 occupied. Furnished with such privileges as these, 
 the Private Traders enjoyed greater advantages 
 and indulgence than the Company under their 
 Charter ; for they, in fact, enjoyed all the advan- 
 tages of Trade, without paying any thing for the 
 political expences of maintaining it. But not con- 
 tented with a participation even on such terms, 
 they now made a demand which, if acceded to, 
 nothing more was left to grant, and a foundation 
 would be thereby laid for the speedy subversion 
 of the Company. But however specious the pre- 
 tences of those men with respect to the cheapness 
 of freights on board of India-built Ships, he was 
 convinced they would be rendered completely nu- 
 
 E 4 gatory
 
 56 
 
 gatory by the events of peace. The project was 
 taken up in a period of war, and in the full con- 
 templation of its continuance ; and it was conse- 
 quently followed up for the present. But it would 
 be found that the consequent abatements in the 
 rate of freightage on board British vessels, the ces- 
 sation of all risks from war, and the expence of 
 convoy, would reduce the expences of freight in 
 British bottoms, and still more in other vessels of 
 Europe, as completely as to do away every claim 
 of preference to India-built vessels. But even sup- 
 pose a preference was still due on account of cheap- 
 ness to India-built vessels, he begged to know why 
 the India Company should be precluded from the 
 advantage, under a Charter for which it so dearly 
 paid ? Or why a preference should be given to 
 their Servants or, if the spirit of the British Na- 
 vigation Act was to be rigidly maintained in re- 
 spect to the former, upon what ground of justice 
 or expediency was it to be relaxed in favour of 
 the latter? 
 
 Sir Francis concluded his arguments by expres- 
 sing his opinion, that no ground had been laid be- 
 fore the House to warrant the Motion of the Ho- 
 nourable Baronet, and by giving to that Motion 
 his decided negative. 
 
 Mr. METCALFE (a Director) said, after the full 
 and able discussion the subject had already under- 
 gone, he felt it necessary to apologise to the House 
 
 for
 
 57 
 
 for trespassing on their attention. He should, 
 however, trouble them as shortly as possible, and 
 confine his observations principally to two points. 
 
 The first was, the source from which the Mo- 
 tion now before the House originated. It was 
 from a combination, long, insidiously, and clan- 
 destinely carried on by persons in India, who had 
 been the Servants of the Company, and who owed 
 
 3 the auspices 
 These men, 
 men of no in- 
 jft whom were 
 
 time ! et U P an 
 
 it carried on a 
 ,ry to the inte- 
 he . Z &6 O , Y illustrated the 
 
 . t/ '~ .ble Baronet op- 
 
 tr*7-4^&> 'Sv-^r .... 
 
 * V .It+^IfAvZZZ^ of children ns- 
 
 iH^S'Z'l~ /&* P'^l' 3t content with 
 availing themselves of the privilege of tonnage, 
 which they enjoyed under the last Act for renew- 
 ing the Charter of the East India Company, they 
 availed themselves of the flags of foreign nations, 
 and supplied all the countries of Europe with the 
 produce of India, to the great injury of the British 
 East India Company ; and to such a pitch was 
 this Clandestine Trade carried, that at one time 
 they actually had 50,000 ton of shipping at Cal- 
 cutta, under foreign flags, ready to carry their 
 commodities to every Port in Europe, and their 
 
 Settlements
 
 56 
 
 gatory by the events of peace. The project was 
 taken up in a period of war, and in the full con- 
 templatiori of its continuance ; and it was conse- 
 quently followed up for the present. But it would 
 be found that the consequent abatements in the 
 rate of freightage on board British vessels, the ces- 
 sation of all risks from war, and the expence of 
 convoy, would reduce the expences of freight in 
 
 British bottoms, and still mw 1 
 
 Europe, as coi 
 
 of preference t 
 
 pose a preferem 
 
 ness to India-bi 
 
 the India Comp 
 
 advantage, und< 
 
 paid? Or why 
 
 their Servants 
 
 vigation Act was 
 
 spect to the forn 
 
 or expediency wa ., ^aa-cci m favour of 
 
 the latter? 
 
 Sir Francis concluded his arguments by expres- 
 sing his opinion, that no ground had been laid be- 
 fore the House to warrant the Motion of the Ho- 
 nourable Baronet, and by giving to that Motion 
 his decided negative. 
 
 Mr. METCALFE (a Director) said, after the full 
 and able discussion the subject had already under- 
 gone, he felt it necessary to apologise to the House 
 
 for
 
 57 
 
 for trespassing on their attention. He should, 
 however, trouble them as shortly as possible, and 
 confine his observations principally to two points. 
 
 The first was, the source from which the Mo- 
 tion now before the House originated. It was 
 from a combination, long, insidiously, and clan- 
 destinely carried on by persons in India, who had 
 been the Servants of the Company, and who owed 
 the means they possessed solely to the auspices 
 and protection of that Company. These men, 
 aided by accomplices in England, men of no in- 
 considerable property, and amongft whom were 
 men of no mean talents, had a long time set up an 
 interest, and for many years past carried on a 
 trade directly opposite and violatory to the inte- 
 rests of their Masters, and this fully illustrated the 
 description given by the Honourable Baronet op- 
 posite to him (Sir Francis Baring) of children ris- 
 ing against their parents j but not content with 
 availing themselves of the privilege of tonnage, 
 which they enjoyed under the last Act for renew- 
 ing the Charter of the East India Company, they 
 availed themselves of the flags of foreign nations, 
 and supplied all the countries of Europe with the 
 produce of India, to the great injury of the British 
 East India Company ; and to such a pitch was 
 this Clandestine Trade carried, that at one time 
 they actually had 50,000 ton of shipping at Cal- 
 cutta, under foreign flags, ready to carry their 
 commodities to every Port in Europe, and their 
 
 Settlements
 
 Settlements elsewhere ; but the spirited conduct 
 ofthe Governor of St. Helena soon checked their 
 progress, by seizing several of those ships, and 
 sending them for the investigation of a Court of 
 Admiralty, many of which were condemned as 
 lawful prizes, and the rest saved, as many a felon 
 frequently is, by dint of suborned perjury, but 
 leaving in the minds of the Court the fullest con- 
 viction of the moral injustice of their acquittal. 
 Having thus lost their interest in the conveyance 
 by neutral bottoms, they now came forward with 
 a proposition of carrying on their Trade with 
 England in their own teak ships, and they had 
 found means to interest in their cause, under the 
 speciousness of their pretences, several men of re- 
 spectability and character, such as the Honourable 
 Baronet, and particularly the Marquis Wellesley, 
 wno had not been above fourteen days in India 
 when he completely adopted the system recom- 
 mended, and sent home his earnest injunction to 
 the Court of Directors for the adoption of that 
 system which formed the topic of that night's dis- 
 cussion. For the talents and character of that 
 noble Lord, he wished to express the highest re- 
 spect ; it was natural enough for a great man of 
 his description, on assuming the government of a 
 great and extensive country, to endeavour, in the 
 first instance, to inform himself from the best au- 
 thorities on the spot, of the nature and situation 
 of the country in certain leading points. He 
 
 would
 
 59 
 
 would naturally be led to consult military men as 
 to its actual strength, and commercial men as to 
 the existing situation of its Trade ; but how he 
 should come to consult a set of Private Traders 
 in the country upon the interests of the India 
 Company, who were directly opposed to those 
 interests, and suddenly take those men to his con- 
 fidence, was a matter for which he owned him- 
 self at a loss to account. 
 
 The object of the Honourable Baronet was to 
 convey home from India the surplus produce pur- 
 chased by the fortunes of the Company's Servants; 
 but the mode he proposed very considerably out- 
 stretched that of Mr. Dundas, and aimed at no- 
 thing less than the opening of the privileges of the 
 Charter to those Private Traders who were the 
 objects of his advocacy the consequence of which 
 would be, that Memorials would come from every 
 community of Traders in Great Britain and Ire- 
 land, to participate in the privilege, and he doubt 
 ed not were at this moment ready to be presented, 
 provided that the Motion of the Honourable Ba- 
 ronet should have its desired success. 
 
 The Right Honourable Member who framed 
 the last India Bill, and to whose talents he paid 
 the highest acknowledgments, did, as was his 
 duty as a Minister, make the best bargain in his 
 power for his Country, and obtained the highest 
 price he could for renewing the monopoly. But 
 
 it
 
 it ought surely to be recollected, that the Legisla- 
 ture, in passing that Act, had pledged its faith to 
 the Company and to the Country ; and he trusted 
 that faith would not now be violated upon the 
 motion of any individual or set of men, without 
 the fullest proof of justice and necessity. The 
 question was not, whether this or that set of indi- 
 viduals had the smallest or the largest share of ad- 
 vantage, upon which the affairs of a great nation 
 were to be governed. Such a conduct would be 
 in direct violation to the policy of every great 
 Statesman since the reign of Queen Anne. And 
 if the Charters of the India Company were to be 
 violated on such grounds, contrary to national 
 faith, where, he would ask, was the security for 
 those of the Bank of England, of the City of Lon- 
 don, or the many other great Charters with which 
 the liberty, the prosperity, and security of the na- 
 tion were so materially connected ? So deep was 
 the scheme of those men who had chosen the 
 worthy Baronet for their champion, that he had 
 the fullest proof of many of the documents which 
 found their way to England, or resolutions passed 
 in India in support of the Honourable Baronet's 
 project, being actually fabricated in England, and 
 sent out to India, in order to find their way back 
 again in an authentic shape. 
 
 He concluded by cautioning the House mature- 
 ly to pa-use, and not lightly to adopt any project 
 
 so
 
 so fraught with injury to that Company, which, 
 if once ruined, the sun of the British Empire must 
 set to rise no more. 
 
 Mr. WILLIAM DUNDAS declared, that no Gen- 
 tleman could be more unwilling to violate the 
 chartered rights of the India Company, as settled 
 by law, than he was : but when the Company had 
 avowed their readiness to concede in favour of the 
 Private Trade, he felt it his duty to close with 
 them, and to accept their concession on the part 
 of the Public. The Private Trader asks to be al- 
 lowed to share that which the capital of the Com- 
 pany cannot embrace. Shall that be denied him? And 
 if it is, will he not employ his capital in the ships 
 of foreign nations, and feed a rival and competitor 
 in the market ? An Honourable Baronet opposite 
 to him (Sir Francis Baring) had said, that 3,000 
 ton of shipping had been allowed by the Act of 
 1793, and that the sagacity and experience of 
 those who framed that Act were generally admit- 
 ted. He would ask, (for no person less wished 
 to detract from their character than he did) was 
 it necessary for them to be endowed also with 
 prescience and foresight to look forward to the 
 present extent of that Trade, and its yearly in- 
 crease, from that period ? The Honourable Baro- 
 net had also asserted, that such was the state of 
 opposition between the Private Traders and the 
 
 Company's
 
 62 
 
 Company's interest, or the home Trade with India, 
 that in proportion as the former increased, the lat- 
 ter always decreased. Unfortunately for this as- 
 sertion, there were such things as figures, which 
 could not err ; and from the last authentic state- 
 ments on this subject, he would read to the Ho- 
 nourable Baronet the refutation of his assertion. 
 
 In the year 1 794-5, the sales of the 
 
 India Company amounted to .5,521,000 
 The private sales - 1,053,000 
 
 From this period they continued in 
 
 progressive increase till the year 
 
 ^ 80 1 -2, when the Company's sales 
 
 were - 7,600,000 
 
 The private sales - - 2,382,000 
 
 An unanswerable proof this of the rapid increase 
 of both. 
 
 Mr. Dundas commended the conduct of Mar- 
 quis Wellesley, and declared his procedure in 
 adopting India-built Ships was to prevent the pre- 
 ference to foreign flags then floating in Bengal 
 River. Lord Wellesley, says the Honourable Ba- 
 ronet, fourteen days after his arrival in India, 
 forms this hasty judgment of employing India- 
 Shipping, and what would any man say of a chief 
 justice in this country deciding ex parte on the 
 subject before him ? Mr. Dundas justified this con- 
 duct
 
 S3 
 
 duct of Lord Wellesley, as the act of an enlight- 
 ened Statesman, who saw under his eye, in the 
 River of Calcutta, foreign flags floating to carry 
 that Trade, which the Noble Lord prevented, by 
 opening it to the English Merchant. Was this 
 then deciding on ex parte evidence ? But this was 
 fourteen days after his arrival. What say the last 
 accounts, dated not fourteen days, but four years 
 after his arrival, (in the month of May, 1801)? 
 " That foreign ships again appear to take advan- 
 " tage of your impolicy, and will again, if the 
 " East India Company is to stand on the pinnacle 
 " of privilege, convey to foreign countries that 
 " which your own Merchants are desirous of 
 " bringing to the Port of London." 
 
 With respect to the argument of the Honour- 
 able Baronet, that the importation of India-built 
 Ships would be deemed injurious to the interest 
 of English country gentlemen, at the time when 
 the scarcity and high price of ship-timber at home 
 might 'be so amply obviated by the produce of 
 Indian forests, inexhaustible to human labour, he 
 expressed his astonishment that such an argument 
 should be offered in a country so highly indebted 
 for her greatness to the superiority of her Navy. 
 Mr. Dundas desired the House not to take his as- 
 sertion for this; he had consulted Lord St. Vin- 
 cent, wh6m he named but to honour, and that 
 Noble Lord's opinion was decidedly, that every 
 day, every hour's delay, in the importation of 
 
 teak
 
 64 
 
 teak timber into England, was deeply injurious to 
 the interests of the country. 
 
 Sir FRANCIS BARING explained* 
 
 Mr. JONES said, Sir, I beg to be allowed at this 
 late hour of the debate to make a few observations, 
 and I assure you I am as unwilling to trouble the 
 House as they can be to hear me, after the length 
 of discussion which this important question has 
 taken ; but it will be, I hope, not deemed unneces- 
 sary or intrusive that I should give my reasons for 
 supporting this motion of my Honourable Friend 
 (Sir W. Pulteney), which I have had the honour 
 of seconding this night. I am the more anxious 
 so to do, that I may (as far as in me lies) endeavour 
 to do away the very unfavourable impressions 
 which an Honourable Friend of mine (Mr. Wai- 
 lace) and an Honourable Director (Major Met- 
 calfe) have endeavoured to brand this motion with. 
 The former Gentleman says, that he considers it 
 as a direct attack on the East India Company, and 
 an " engine of destruction" to the Charter. No 
 such thing. He says it may branch out into a 
 variety of matter, and produce endless inquiry, 
 and great mischief. I say poflibly it might ; but 
 as to producing mischief, it will conduce to the 
 advantage of the public, and the incalculable bene- 
 fit of the revenues of the State. My Honourable 
 Friend says, ' it will furnish France with seamen 
 
 France
 
 France, which God and Nature have made bur 
 natural enemy/' Why this is an odd expression j 
 just at the time peace has been happily accom- 
 plished. But of that no more at present. He 
 says it may injure our sovereignty of the seas. To 
 that I say, I fear it not. In short, all good may be 
 expected from the motion, if carried, and all evil 
 if not. Why then, Sir, the Chancellor of the Ex- 
 chequer says (I do not wish to misconstrue one 
 word of his on the subject) that he is free to con- 
 fess that he thinks, " the Directors have not given 
 proper facility to the encouragement of the Private 
 Trade, according to the spirit of the act of 1793." 
 This is the main point. The whole hinges here* 
 I say, will the Directors give this necessary faci- 
 lity? Will they come themselves forward? It does 
 not seem as if they would. This is what the mo- 
 tion calls for. But from the language of an Ho- 
 nourable Director (Mr. Metcalfe) it should seem 
 that the definition of this motion is quite uncer- 
 tain. Some Gentlemen call it a commercial, some 
 a political, and some an aristocratical one ; I call it 
 all. It is a subject which embraces the national 
 interest and happiness. But at all events there is 
 an evident importance in it, and the Directors of 
 India seem alarmed, as if we, the supporters of 
 the motion, were advancing in battle array to take 
 the Leadenhall Aristocracy " vi et armis" No 
 Sir, the alarm, is unfounded. My Honourable 
 Eriend only asks for a Committee to enquire into 
 
 F the
 
 66 
 
 the Private Trade, the necessity of which seems ttf 
 be confessed on all sides, by Commissioners, Di- 
 rectors, Proprietors, and the Public. If the in- 
 quiry be not granted and a committee appointed 
 that night to make it, the question I trust will 
 be repeated. As to the necessity of it, it is most 
 glaringly obvious, both on this subject and va- 
 rious other matters. What says an honourable 
 Director behind me (Sir F. Baring) though against 
 the question ; he says the bad situation of the 
 Company (if I understand him right) will require 
 Parliamentary interference ; and so he has very 
 wisely said before. And here I repeat my state- 
 ment (made in June last) of the debt of India ; I 
 re-assert it to be 20,000,000!. sterling. I contend 
 it is in the face of all present, and I defy all con- 
 tradiction here or elsewhere (see Mr. Dundas's 
 letter published June 30) ; I repeat, nothing but 
 the most powerful abilities can save the Company 
 from ruin. Begin with the Private Trade ; the 
 question calls loudly for investigation. An Ho- 
 nourable Member (Mr. Metcalfe) says, grant this 
 and inquire into the state of the Company, much 
 mischief will ensue : the interests of this House and 
 the Company, he says, are implicated, and also the 
 interests of the country ; I know it, and therefore 
 I call for this inquiry. If one perishes, he says, the 
 other will ; I know they are involved in mutual 
 interests j but he says, if you stir this question it 
 may lead to others, and bring ruin on the country, 
 
 and
 
 and that the sun of Great Britain will set. If 
 some inquiry be not made ; if the committee be 
 not granted, such is the state of the Company, . 
 such I say are its dilapidations. I repeat my words^ 
 such are its dilapidations, that ruin must ensue 
 and with it, from its natural connection, then, God 
 forbid ! the sUn of England may set* Once for 
 all, Sir, I hope that the Directors will not with- 
 hold that facility to the encouragement of Private 
 Trade, which the Minister himself thinks they 
 have done. Let this inquiry be granted, by which 
 the revenues of the country will be most amply 
 benefited, and the salvation of India, and with it 
 that of Great Britain, be accomplished. 
 
 Mr. TIERNEY apologised for troubling the 
 House on a question already so fully discussed, and 
 said his reason principally for saying any thing on 
 the subject was, merely to avoid giving a silent 
 vote. The first ground on which he should op- 
 pose the motion was, the charter of the India 
 Company, which vested in the Court of Directors 
 the sole control in this affair ; and, without vio- 
 lating that charter, and with it the faith of the 
 nation, on which it stood supported, it was im- 
 possible to comply with the motion of the worthy 
 Baronet. If he conceived there was any thing in 
 that charter contrary to the public welfare, or that 
 the motion before the House was calculated to re* 
 move any such principle in the privileges of the 
 
 F 2 India
 
 68 
 
 India Company, there was no man in the House 
 less disposed than he was to be deterred by such 
 cant as the phrase of " Chartered Rights" from 
 acceding to the inquiry proposed. But neither 
 proof nor argument had been adduced that night 
 to convince him that any necessity for such in- 
 quiry existed. The bill for renewing the charter 
 of the India Company had been drawnjby an able 
 hand, and by this bill a line was drawn by which 
 the limits of Private and Public Trade with India 
 were amicably adjusted by Parliament. A regu- 
 lation was in reality exacted from the Company 
 in favour of Private Traders, by which three thou- 
 sand ton of shipping was exclusively appointed for 
 the convenience of the Private Trade, and discre- 
 tionary powers vested in the Court of Directors to 
 extend that quantity, if occassion should require. 
 But now an attempt was made for opening that 
 bill again to consideration, in his mind impolitic 
 and unnecessary. Not a single petition came for- 
 ward from any community or individual for the 
 purpose ; not one single remonstrance or proof 
 adduced of any injury to any party, or necessity 
 for amendment or redress. Where, then, were 
 the assertions of the honourable Baronet support- 
 ed ? Not by the public voice, for in all England 
 there did not appear to be 500 persons in support 
 of his opinions. At a Court of Proprietors, in- 
 deed, about 240 signatures were procured ; and 
 at other opportunities about 40 or 50 more. But 
 
 was
 
 But was this a ground sufficient to warrant the 
 House in bringing forward the inquiry proposed? 
 a Board of Control had been appointed under the 
 act, and the rates of freight settled at 1 5!. per ton 
 outwards, and 5!. home, and this subject to fur- 
 ther revisions as occasion might require. But 
 did it ever enter into the contemplation of any 
 man, can the honourable Baronet say, that India- 
 built shipping was intended by the act, or that if 
 such an idea had been offered at the time of pass- 
 ing the act, that it would not have been decidedly 
 rejected? Indeed, without the sanction of an act / 
 of Parliament, he thought it would be wholly in- 
 admissible to proceed on the subject. He remem- 
 bered a proposition of the sort being brought for- 
 ward by the India Company some years ago, and 
 he well recollected the general alarm it created on 
 both sides of the river. What was the claim set 
 up by the men who now demanded such a privi- 
 lege? Why no pretence of right, but a pretty 
 plain menace, that if you refused them the privi- 
 lege, they were ready to do the worst thing they 
 possibly could to employ the ships of rival na 
 tions ; a menace which in his mind did not go to 
 entitle them to much indulgence from that House, 
 The worthy Baronet had sanctioned his propo- 
 sal under the name and example of the Marquis 
 Wellesley. To that Nobleman, high in character 
 and learning, no man was more ready to pay re- 
 spectful deference than he was ; and had the ques- 
 F 3 tion
 
 tion been one of classical research, no man would 
 have more chearfully bowed submission to the 
 judgment of the noble Lord. But upon the sub- 
 ject of the policy and regulation of the Govern- 
 ment of India, in which his Lordship's experience 
 was so extremely short at the time alluded to by 
 the worthy Baronet, he was not quite so ready to 
 surrender his own judgment. He had heard opi- 
 nions with respect to that country asserted by Ho- 
 nourable and Right Honourable Members in that 
 House, who assumed the profoundest knowledge 
 Of India affairs, which he had seen as frequently 
 contradicted by events. The House had been told 
 by a Right Honourable Gentleman who introduced 
 the East India Charter, that this country would 
 very shortly derive an aid of half a million a year 
 from the India Company, in the rapidly rising 
 prosperity of their affairs. He should have had 
 no objection to see the money brought forward, 
 but unfortunately for the prophet his prediction 
 was yet unfulfilled. He expressed his sincere re* 
 gret that this question had ever been brought for- 
 ward in Parliament, but that rather, if concessions 
 were to be made, they had come cordially and 
 spontaneously from the Directors themselves, ra- 
 ther than seem to be the result of an appeal to 
 Parliament. Because in India, where every thing 
 depends so much on opinion, if once an idea went 
 forth that the servants of the Company were able 
 to triumph over their masters in an appeal to Par- 
 liament,
 
 7* 
 
 liament, there was no calculating the mischiefs 
 that might ensue for if once any subordinate 
 power was allowed to make head against the Court 
 of Directors, their authority would be at an end. 
 If the use of India-shipping was such a tower of 
 strength to the servants of the Company, why not 
 equally advantageous to the Company themselves? 
 But if once granted to the servants, he had the 
 most serious fears for the extent of colonization 
 in India. Indeed, upon the principle of the grant 
 it would be inevitable ; and if cheapness was once 
 to be allowed as a pretence of deviation from the 
 charter, London would no longer be the emporium 
 of India produce ; and the cheapness of ware- 
 houses at Liverpool, Glasgow, and other provin- 
 cial ports, would be pleaded as pretences for stor- , 
 ing India-goods there, and favouring an illicit 
 trade with other countries. But, allowing that 
 the agents were to obtain what they wish, would 
 their claims end there ? Would such claimants be 
 content with what they now pretend is the full 
 measure of their desires ? If the charter of the 
 Company were once attacked and laid open, what 
 security would there remain for any exclusive 
 privilege or regulation which now exists ? If 
 cheapness in the conduct of the Trade be the grand 
 argument of the agents, consider to what it might 
 go : it might be found out that the trade was not 
 carried on most advantageously to the port of 
 London j it might be said that greater facilities, 
 F 4 that
 
 7* 
 
 that cheaper warehouses, &c. could be obtained at? 
 Liverpool, at Glasgow, or any other port of Great 
 Britain or Ireland, New applications would be v 
 made, memorials and complaints would pour in on 
 every side against the obstacles raised by the Com- 
 pany, and demanding new facilities, till the whole 
 system of the India Company, and the present 
 connexion of this country with India, was de-> 
 stroyed. Those claimants would have the popular 
 side of the question ; they would hold out the 
 captivating language of bringing all the trade of 
 India to the port of London : it would be said that 
 we might easily exclude foreigners from partici- 
 pating in our advantages; London, they would 
 say, would be rendered the emporium of all the 
 world ; and there would not be wanting those who 
 would be charmed with such brilliant prospects 
 But in fact it was doubtful whether, if practicable, 
 it was advantageous that foreigners should be de- 
 prived of their share in the Trade. He saw no ad- 
 vantage in producing that envy and disgust among 
 other nations that would render peace insecure. 
 But, in fact, it was not possible to exclude foreign- 
 ers. It was proved that, though the Private Trade 
 had increased, the Trade of foreign nations with 
 British India had increased likewise. Complaints 
 have, been ma4e that the act of 1793 had not suc- 
 ceeded in its objects, and that now it was necessary 
 to carry its spirit into effect. This, indeed, ap- 
 peared a strange conclnsion. For his part, on the 
 
 face
 
 73 
 
 face of it there appeared to be ground to think 
 that it had succeeded, and that in the very point 
 of the Private Trade. It appeared that, in the year 
 previous to the passing of that act, the Private 
 Trade had amounted in value to about 8oo,oool. 
 and now it had advanced to 2,300,000!. The 
 danger of cplonization, the increase of Trade has 
 an obvious tendency to render greater. The Com- 
 pany would naturally, therefore, be more careful 
 in granting licences for residence in their territo- 
 ries. But would it not be required that, with the 
 increase of Trade, a greater number of merchants 
 should be in India to carry it on ? What bounds 
 then could be set to the increase of resident mer- 
 chants in India? Jt was true that the circum- 
 stances of India and America were very unlike. 
 In America every thing was wild and uncultivated. 
 In India every thing is made. Besides other 
 establishments, there was an army ; and, though 
 the fidelity and merit of that army were indisput- 
 able, it ought not to be forgotten that, such were 
 the habits of the Company's servants, that the 
 military, among others, expected to profit by any 
 new facilities of Trade. Houses would be estab- 
 lished, and become hereditary in India, with im- 
 mense wealth. It was said that the capital would 
 find its way to England ; it would go to the Mo- 
 ther Country, He did not doubt that it would 
 seek the Mother Country; but in a new state of 
 things, and hereditary commercial establishments, 
 
 it
 
 74 
 
 it was not so easy to determine which was the 
 Mother Country. The real Mother Country is 
 that where a man resides, that where he enjoys 
 his advantages ; and surely this view of the case 
 would be most natural to thos,e who profess to be 
 guided merely by views of cheapness and superior 
 gain. What certainty would there be in all Asi- 
 atic Commerce centering in England, when those 
 who are now so patriotically desirous of bringing 
 it exclusively to the port of London profess them- 
 selves ready, if they are disappointed in their aims, 
 to carry that Trade to other ports, for the tempta- 
 tion of the additional gain of four or five per cent. ? 
 But in a more large and national point of view, 
 was it nothing that English ship-building was to 
 be transferred to India ? It was pretended that the 
 ship-builders in the Thames would be equally be- 
 nefited by the repair of India-built ships coming 
 to the River. This, however, was not well founded. 
 He saw, on looking over a document on the case, 
 that out of 200,000!. expended one year on ships of 
 this description, not 20,000!. was expended in ar- 
 ticles that really belonged to ship-building. It was 
 a very serious matter that the work of the ship- 
 builders at home should be transferred to any 
 other quarter. 
 
 He had devoted considerable attention to the 
 whole of this subject, and he had been informed, 
 on good authority, that before the American war 
 the Company, in consequence of embarrassments, 
 
 suspended
 
 75 
 
 suspended their usual contracts for ships, by which 
 there was an alarming emigration among the ship- 
 builders, till at last the Company, with great libe- 
 rality, agreed to lay down several ships for which 
 they had no occasion, merely to prevent such a 
 national calamity. Was it proper, then, to hazard 
 a similar effect, by giving so much encouragement 
 to India-built ships in the import of Indian pro- 
 duce? Nothing could justify it unless there was an 
 absolute scarcity of English ship timber, which he 
 did not believe was much to be feared. Or, if 
 this was the case, he had no objection that teak 
 wood, as timber, should be brought to this coun- 
 try in aid of our own growth. He could not 
 consent, however, that India-built vessels should 
 be set up in rivalship to our own shipping. But 
 though it was not likely that we should depend 
 on foreign countries for navy timber, he did not 
 see that there was so much to be dreaded from 
 the scarcity of timber at home as some might. At 
 present there were many things essential to the 
 outfit of ships, and which was as necessary as the 
 hull, for which we were obliged to depend upon 
 foreign nations. Certainly, however, after the 
 services of our dock-yards at home, those con- 
 cerned in them as proprietors or as labourers, 
 might have reason to complain, if advantages 
 against them were given to India-built ships ; and 
 it ought to be remembered how useful, on many 
 occasions, the dock-yards appropriated chiefly to 
 
 East
 
 7<5 
 
 East India shipping had been. It was known that 
 but very lately, during the alarm of invasion, 30 
 gun-vessels had been built in some of those yards 
 with extraordinary rapidity. But with respect 
 even to the cheapness of India-built ships, he was 
 not convinced. In the price of the timber alone 
 could that cheapness consist, as most of the articles 
 of outfit were sent out from r this country ? But 
 granting that they might be cheaper, the India 
 Company had offered to supply British tonnage 
 even at a loss. But the agents contended that 
 this Company would ruin itself by such a pro- 
 ceeding, and were too generous to accept the of- 
 fer ! In his opinion, however, even if the Com- 
 pany lose a little, it would be more than compen- 
 sated by the advantages accruing to British ship- 
 ping. 
 
 Upon the whole, when he considered the offers 
 made by the Company, he thought the Directors 
 did rather too much than too little. Every thing 
 in India depended upon the opinion entertained 
 of the Company's vigour and firmness. These 
 servants, he feared, would consider this already as 
 a victory over them. The Court of Directors 
 were accused of throwing difficulties in the way 
 of the Free Trade, but he rather thought that this 
 readiness to grant facilities produced unreasonable 
 demands. If they were to shew that the agents 
 should not triumph over them, he was strongly 
 inclined to think that many of the difficulties now 
 
 so
 
 17 
 
 so loudly complained of, and exaggerated by their 
 runners in all quarters, would vanish. Then Eng- 
 lish ships and English tonnage would be found to 
 have fewer inconveniencies, and India-built ships 
 fewer of those superior advantages for which they 
 were recommended. 
 
 Having considered it his duty to pay a good 
 deal of attention to this important subject, he had 
 thus stated his sentiments on a few points, and 
 should have commented on several others, had 
 they not already been so ably argued. On the 
 whole he was decidedly against the Motion. 
 
 Lord GLENBERVIE differed from his Honourable 
 Friend who had just sat down, respecting the agi- 
 tation of the present question. He was of opinion 
 that the notice of the Motion had no doubt con-, 
 tributed to suggest that liberality on the part of 
 the Company to meet tbe wishes of the Merchants, 
 which had been announced from high authority. 
 Nay, the departure of the Court of Directors from 
 the strict letter of the Act of 1793, proved that 
 they were not of the sentiment that by the strict 
 rigour of that law they were to be governed, espe- 
 cially when advantages could be extended to 
 Private Trade, without injuring their own exclu- 
 sive rights and the public interest. The argument 
 of his Honourable Friend against the authority of 
 the late President of the Board of Control in this 
 affair, appeared by no means conclusive. Was it 
 
 not
 
 7 8 
 
 hot a proof that the object of the Right Honour* 
 able Gentleman, the framer of the Act of 1793* 
 had failed, because experience had shewn that 
 
 V after a lapse of eight years the quantity of tonnage 
 allowed, and the mode of carrying on the Private 
 Trade recognised, were not sufficient for the fair 
 demands of that Trade \ demands which the Pro- 
 positions now submitted to by the Directors shewed 
 to be, in a certain degree, reasonable? With respect 
 
 ^ to India-built ships, he must in the first place re- 
 mark, that he could not see that in point of law 
 /those ships were not entitled to all the privileges of 
 British-built ships ; and if a claim had been intro- 
 duced in a particular Act, by which they were 
 declared capable of bringing home India produce, 
 any doubt on the subject arose from the want in 
 India of those Officers whose certificate of registry 
 was necessary under the Act called Lord Hawkes- 
 bury's Act, to ascertain the privilege of ships built 
 in the British Settlements, the right, he conceived, 
 could not be disputed ; and it had long since been 
 found by legal decision, that a ship built at Surat 
 was on the footing of British-built vessels. He 
 might perhaps differ from his Honourable Friend, 
 likewise, as to the cheapness of teak ships, but at 
 all events, the opinion of the best judges, the Ad- 
 miralty, and a Commission appointed to report on 
 the subject, there was too much reason to appre- 
 hend a scarcity of ship timber, the growth of this 
 country, and therefore it was politic to save it as 
 
 much
 
 79 
 
 Tnucli as possible. It was ascertained, too, that 
 teak ships were in many respects superior to oak, 
 particularly as they were lighter in the water, and 
 more durable, so that they might be considered 
 as cheaper. 
 
 His Lordship then alluded to the paragraphs in 
 the dispatches of the Court of Directors to the 
 Governor General, which the Board of Control 
 had been of opinion should not be sent out. He 
 had concurred in that opinion, and the agitation 
 of the question now in discussion was the reason 
 why he thought they should not be sent out last 
 season. It appeared to his mind still, that since 
 the correspondence of the Board of Commission- 
 ers with the Court of Directors, and particularly 
 since the first notice of this motion given by the 
 Honourable Baronet, enough had been made cut, 
 enough had been admitted by the Company, to 
 shew that a parliamentary enquiry might be ne- 
 cessary. An enquiry, however, he always thought 
 was a thing to be avoided, if possible, as there was 
 no saying to what lengths it might go, but now 
 he conceived that the reasons for enquiry had 
 ceased. The Propositions made by the Court of 
 Directors agreed that the Trade should for two 
 years be allowed to be brought home in tonnage 
 now in India. This permission given to the Pri- 
 vate Trade would evince what would be proper 
 to be done in future. It would try the effect of 
 the Peace. He hoped that it was reasonable to 
 
 look
 
 So 
 
 look forward to two years of peace, and though 
 doubtless the possibility of future war between 
 this country and France was not to be placed out 
 of view, he thought it unpleasant to anticipate war 
 at a near period, and to view the peace as alto- 
 gether unsafe. If on trial it was found that the 
 indulgence granted by the Company did not in- 
 jure its interests, a system of regulations to con- 
 tinue during the existence of the Charter might 
 then be adopted. For the present, however, all 
 ground for enquiry was removed, not only by this 
 offer, but by that other one by which the Mer- 
 chants were to be at liberty to offer tenders to the 
 Company for India Shipping. This, however, was 
 not a condition of the other Proposition for allow- 
 ing the Private Trade to be sent home for two 
 years, the Merchants were at liberty to accept the 
 one without availing themselves of the other. 
 Upon the whole, therefore, he should vote for the 
 previous question. 
 
 Mr. R. THORNTON (a Director) remarked upon 
 the terms in which the Honourable Baronet had 
 spoken of the Directors, calling them an Aristo- 
 cracy, &c. He said that the Directors were all 
 men who acted from no improper motives of ad- 
 vantage or patronage ; that they had a laborious 
 duty to perform, and they performed it with con- 
 scientiousness. It surely was a presumption that 
 they were convinced of the justice, policy, and 
 
 rectitude
 
 8r 
 
 rectitude of their proceedings, when thirty gentle- 
 men, in no conspiracy against the public interest, 
 concurred in their views. He contended that the 
 regulated monopoly of the Company was the only 
 way of rendering the British Empire in India be- 
 neficial to the State. He remarked also that it 
 was very singular that though the Merchants com- 
 plained of -want of facilities, they had in no one 
 year occupied the quantity of 3000 tons allotted 
 to them, and it was a proof of the liberality of the 
 Directors that they did not stand upon the strict 
 letter of the Act of 1793, but were ready to give 
 any indulgences to Private Trade not incompatible 
 with the interest of the great body for whom they 
 were trustees. 
 
 Sir JAMES PULTENEY declared that his views in- 
 promoting the extension of the Private Trade, as 
 well as those of his Honourable Relation, were 
 chiefly to prevent the injury which the country 
 must sustain from too great encouragement being 
 given to Foreign Trade in India j and the only 
 way to prevent that would be, to afford a greater 
 facility to the British Capitalist to carry on Pri- 
 vate Trade in India-built ships. The interest of 
 the Company, as well as that of individuals, would 
 be promoted by such a plan. It was said that the 
 Court of Directors were ready to permit this Pri- 
 vate Trade ; but it was also in their power to pre- 
 
 G vent
 
 82 
 
 vent it, and that was the grievance chiefly com- 
 plained of. 
 
 ' "" ' ii "...) 
 
 Sir WiLLiAM PULTENEY, in reply,- admitted 
 that the Propositions which had been read by the 
 Chancellor of the Exchequer contained in appear- 
 ance considerable concessions, but when examined 
 they would be found to fall greatly short. Per- 
 mission was to be given for the Merchants in India 
 to send home for two years their produce in India 
 ships, according to Lord Wellesley's plan, but the 
 first year it was already known that the ships 
 were coming home with produce, and for the se- 
 cond year it was known that for a great part of 
 the shipping in the Red Sea, to which the indul- 
 gence was extended, Marquis Wellesley had ac- 
 tually stipulated this permission on account of 
 their services in the expedition, and should more 
 be wanted, it would no doubt have appeared invi- 
 dious if, more tonnage than that in the Red Sea 
 being wanted, the Governor General had refused 
 his permission for employing an additional quan- 
 tity. 
 
 The next point was, what was to be done after 
 those two years ? On this head he did not see that 
 the Propositions came up to the just demands of 
 the case. The Merchants were allowed to make 
 tenders here of shipping to be sent home from 
 India, but as so much time must elapse in the cor- 
 respondence
 
 83 
 
 rcspondence with India on the subject, and the 
 quantities of tonnage required might so vary in 
 the interval, that much inconvenience might arise. 
 Besides, although for the first two years the Mer- 
 chants were allowed to load and average their own 
 cargoes, in future their goods are to go through 
 the Company's warehouses, and be shipped by their 
 servants, inconveniences which would be extreme- 
 ly felt, and which greatly diminished the value of 
 the indulgence ; and, in fact, by this reservation, 
 the Company might throw those obstacles in the 
 way of the Private Trade which there was toa 
 much reason to believe it was their wish to do. 
 
 With respect to the tenders of India tonnage to 
 be made here to the Court of Directors, he con- 
 ceived the -number of eight voyages, for which 
 the ships were to be engaged, was a disadvantage. 
 To a fixed public Company such a condition might 
 be advantageous, but it could not be so to the 
 private Merchant, whose views, interests, and spe- 
 culations might so greatly vary during that period. 
 Indeed he could not help thinking the propositions 
 of the Directory as illusory, and showing a deter 
 mined disposition to withhold every facility from 
 the Private Trade. So .much was this his opinion, 
 that he saw no prospect of an arrangement on the 
 present footing, but confidently believed that the 
 matter must again come before Parliament for its 
 G 2 intervention.
 
 84 
 
 intervention. The Chancellor of the Exchequer 
 himself thought that if no satisfaction had been 
 given by the Court of Directors, Parliament might 
 have interfered to carry into effect the Act of 
 1793. For his .own part, he not only thought it 
 competent to Parliament to interfere, but that it 
 was called on to give efficiency to the spirit and in- 
 tent of its own act. It was a different case from 
 that of a judge interpreting law, and Parliament 
 had a right to take means to carry into execution 
 what clearly were its own views. That the spirit 
 of the Act was such as he contended for, Sir Wil- 
 liam showed by reading at letter from Mr. Dundas 
 to Mr. Henchman, in which the Right Honourable 
 Gentleman say s } * that if the difficulty which had 
 now occurred had also come under consideration, 
 that there could be no doubt that it would ha-ve 
 likewise been expressly provided for by the Act of 
 i 793. So far the intention of ^he Legislature was 
 clear, from the opinion of the author of the mea- 
 sure. It was absurd, therefore, to talk of throw- 
 ing the Trade open, and predicting so many dan- 
 gerous consequences from what was clearly the 
 policy of the Act renewing the Company's Char- 
 ter. With respect to the quantity of tonnage pro- 
 vided by the Act- of 1793 not being made use of 
 by the Merchants, the reason was obvious. The 
 rate of freight was so high, that it would have 
 
 been
 
 7 
 
 been ruinous to the Merchants to ship. From aji ' 
 authentic paper, he showed that in 1798 the freight 
 charged by the Company, was 52!. while foreign 
 bottoms could at the same time be procured in the 
 port of Calcutta at the rate of t61. per ton. .He ^ 
 was clearly of opinion, upon the whole of the 
 case, that it was necessary that. the subject should 
 again come before Parliament before the lapse of 4 
 the two years. It was necessary for the Merchants 
 to know what they had to look to, that they might 
 be enabled to adapt their arrangements accord- 
 ingly. They could not trust to the uncertainties 
 under which things were now left, and they must 
 be obliged to come to Parliament for a permanent 
 and more equitable regulation, if it was not to 
 be obtained from the policy and justice of the 
 Company. 
 
 The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, he 
 was anxious that the sentiment ascribed to him by 
 the Honourable Baronet should not be misunder- 
 stood. He would not have resisted the interven- 
 tion of Parliament if there had appeared any dis- 
 inclination on the part of the Directors to carry 
 into effect the true intent and meaning of the Act 
 of 1793, though he believed he differed very ma- 
 terially from the Honourable Baronet what that 
 intent and meaning was. This he considered to ^ 
 
 be
 
 86 
 
 be the granting of every facility to the Private 
 Trade, consistent with the exclusive privileges of 
 the Company, and the preservation of their para- 
 mount rights. 
 
 The question being called for, the gallery was 
 cleared, but the previous question was carried 
 without a division. 
 
 ot 
 
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